General question about Python design goals

[Robert Kern]

Christoph Zwerschke wrote:
>>>Let me ask back: Do I really need to bother and justify it with a use 
>>>case in a case where the language can be easily made more consistent or 
>>>orthogonal without breaking anything?
> 
> Robert Kern wrote:
> 
>>Yes. If it's not going to be used, then there's not much point.
>>Practicality beats purity, and all that.
> 
> I have nothing against "practicality beats purity". But to stay with the 
> examples I have given, in how far is writing list(t).index(x) more 
> practical than t.index(x)?

I'm not arguing that the things you mentioned shouldn't be changed. I'm
saying that use cases really are important in making design decisions.
You just provided one. Congratulations.

> And by the way, if we are speaking about practicality here, are we 
> speaking about practicality for the Python developers or for the Python 
> users? This may be sometimes be in opposition.

As Paul noted, it was a misuse of the phrase. I withdraw it.

>>However, I will note that if you were to present us with a working patch
>>with documentation and unittests, then you'll probably get responses
>>along the lines of "Thank you!", instead.
> 
> Not everybody has the time and skills to provide that. Ordinary people 
> from the Python user base should be given the opportunity to make 
> suggestions for improvement - of course not in the tone of "I 
> demand...", but they should not be automatically regarded as "demanding" 
> if they just utter their opinion or make a suggestion either.
> 
> Even if I had the time and skills, before starting to work on a patch, 
> unittests etc. I still would first discuss with others whether my 
> suggestion is reasonable and would be appreciated by the "user base", 
> developers and the BDFL. Just take the example of the following patch:
> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=305470&aid=403693&group_id=5470
> 
> It was not rejected by reason of missing unittests or documentation, but 
> the very idea was rejected.

And it also appears to have nothing to do with the lack of proffered use
cases but (primarily) Guido's thoughts about how the different objects
are supposed to be used. That's why use cases are so important. They
allow developers to talk about real, concrete issues.

-- 
Robert Kern
robert.kern at gmail.com

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
 Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
  -- Richard Harter