- E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler

[Pat]

Nick Coghlan wrote:
> Pat wrote:
> > On Windows, most users are used to installing precompiled binary
> > packages, rather than compiling from source.  When you do have to
> > compile from source, it often requires you to fiddle with nitty
gritty
> > details about which you'd rather remain ignorant.  The less
fiddling
> > required, the happier the user will be, and the easier it will be
for
> > that product to get adopted on that platform.  No psychic abilities
are
> > required.  No Python abilities are required, either, for that
matter.
> > ;-)
>
> And the fact that building *any* Windows native program without
commercial
> software is a PITA is the py-dev crew's fault, how?

I don't recall saying that it was their fault, but if I gave that
impression I apologize.  I'm mainly reacting to those individuals who
keep claiming that things couldn't be any simpler and that there is no
problem.  Based on the quality of the rest of your reply, you clearly
on not one of those individuals.  In fact, you have given some great
information here.  So thank you.  It is greatly appreciated.

> The python.org releases provide pre-built binaries for Windows,
support for
> compiling Windows extensions with various compilers (including
MinGW), and
> autoconf/automake support for POSIX-ish platforms (including Cygwin).

True, and I've always been glad that Tim Peters went through all the
trouble of creating and supporting the Windows binaries because I was
on the Windows platform when I first got introduced to Python.  Thank
you, Tim!

> For native Windows compilation of the interpreter, they support MSVC6
and MSVC7.1.
>
> If you're a serious commercial Windows shop, you will have one of the
Microsoft
> compiler suites installed *somewhere*. At that point, building your
own version
> of Python is trivial.

True, but see my reply to your subsequent points.

> Which leaves the hobbyists, and those companies which, for whatever
reason,
> choose not to use Visual Studio to build C/C++ code on Windows.

Exactly.  And how big is that group, really?  It might be quite large.

> If it meets your needs, the easiest solution is to build a non-native
version
> using Cygwin (./configure, make, make altinstall). That's what I
currently do,
> as the easiest free way to hack Python on a Windows box.

Yeah, but Cygwin is a bit scary for Windows folks who aren't familiar
with Linux or Unix.

> Which means our target group is now only those who want to build a
Windows
> Python binary, and don't want to use Visual Studio, and don't want to
use Cygwin
> (hmm, the group under discussion must be getting rather small by
now).

Actually, I think this group is potentially huge in comparison to the
current users of Python.  It's just that they aren't currently
represented in the Python community.  Look at the PythonCard project.
I was involved in the early stages of its formation (that was when I
wrote PyCrust, which was incorporated into PythonCard).  A great deal
of the interest in PythonCard was from hobbyists, VBers, old HyperCard
developers, etc.  These folks were not your typical Python programmers.
 They just wanted a simple tool that they could use to create simple
applications.

Now what if PythonCard started using some C source code as part of
their project?  They would either have to provide binaries, or they
would have to make it easy for their developer community, many of whom
are on Windows, to be able to compile C extensions for Python.  If they
couldn't make it easy, they would risk alienating many of their
supporters.

So my only point is that by making it easier to use C extensions, we
have an opportunity to make Python more attractive to a broader
audience that includes hobbyists and folks that do not want to pay for
commercial C compilers.  And I think there may very well be more C code
in typical projects with all the cool tools getting used, like Pyrex
and such.

[snip]

The rest of your message provided great information.  Thank you very
much.

--
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech    http://www.orbtech.com
Schevo     http://www.schevo.org
Pypersyst  http://www.pypersyst.org