python-dev Summary for 2004-06-16 through 2004-06-30
Brett Cannon
bac at OCF.Berkeley.EDU
Mon Jul 5 21:50:43 EDT 2004
python-dev Summary for 2004-06-16 through 2004-06-30
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This is a summary of traffic on the `python-dev mailing list`_ from June
16, 2004 through June 30, 2004. It is intended to inform the wider
Python community of on-going developments on the list. To comment on
anything mentioned here, just post to `comp.lang.python`_ (or email
python-list at python.org which is a gateway to the newsgroup) with a
subject line mentioning what you are discussing. All python-dev members
are interested in seeing ideas discussed by the community, so don't
hesitate to take a stance on something. And if all of this really
interests you then get involved and join `python-dev`_!
This is the forty-third summary written by Brett Cannon (and that count is
correct; 21.5 months worth of reading and writing).
To contact me, please send email to brett at python.org ; I do not have
the time to keep up on comp.lang.python and thus do not always catch
follow-ups posted there.
All summaries are archived at http://www.python.org/dev/summary/ .
Please note that this summary is written using reStructuredText_ which
can be found at http://docutils.sf.net/rst.html . Any unfamiliar
punctuation is probably markup for reST_ (otherwise it is probably
regular expression syntax or a typo =); you can safely ignore it,
although I suggest learning reST; it's simple and is accepted for `PEP
markup`_ and gives some perks for the HTML output. Also, because of the
wonders of programs that like to reformat text, I cannot guarantee you
will be able to run the text version of this summary through Docutils_
as-is unless it is from the `original text file`_.
.. _PEP Markup: http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0012.html
The in-development version of the documentation for Python can be found at
http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/ and should be used when looking up any
documentation on new code; otherwise use the current documentation as
found at
http://docs.python.org/ . PEPs (Python Enhancement Proposals) are
located at http://www.python.org/peps/ . To view files in the Python
CVS online, go to http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/python/
. Reported bugs and suggested patches can be found at the SourceForge_
project page.
The `Python Software Foundation`_ is the non-profit organization that
holds the intellectual property for Python. It also tries to forward
the development and use of Python. But the PSF_ cannot do this without
donations. You can make a donation at
http://python.org/psf/donations.html . Every penny helps so even a
small donation (you can donate through PayPal or by check) helps.
.. _python-dev: http://www.python.org/dev/
.. _SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=5470
.. _python-dev mailing list:
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
.. _comp.lang.python: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=comp.lang.python
.. _Docutils: http://docutils.sf.net/
.. _reST:
.. _reStructuredText: http://docutils.sf.net/rst.html
.. _PSF:
.. _Python Software Foundation: http://python.org/psf/
.. contents::
.. _last summary:
http://www.python.org/dev/summary/2004-06-16_2004-06-30.html
.. _original text file:
http://www.python.org/dev/summary/2004-06-16_2004-06-30.ht
Summary Announcements
=====================
The trouble plaguing mail.python.org mid-month has been cleared up. It
had led to some rather delayed emails so if you sent one in and it was
ignored for no good reason you might want to consider bringing the topic
back up.
In the little comment made by the summary count last month, I questioned
whether that count was correct. Turns out it was off by one; this is
the true forty-third semi-monthly summary by me (month-long summaries I
count as two summaries; more of a count of the number of semi-months I
have been doing this). So counting the two week span that I took off
when Raymond Hettinger summarized for a week way back in October 2002
(still waiting for the second week, Raymond =) I have been doing this
for 22 months straight. And yet after all of that email I still have my
vision intact. Amazing.
A reader suggested that PEP mentions also include the the title of the
PEP. Now normally I purposefully leave it out. Not only is it easier
for me to not have to look up the title, but I always hope it might help
spurn people on to read the PEP instead of going by my summary of what
it entails. Does that even work? If you would rather have me state the
title, send me an email. Silence will be taken to mean that you are
fine with the way I do it now. Otherwise I need to have a certain
number of people (have a number in my head between 1 and 100 =) tell
me that they would rather have me institute this change.
Summaries
=========
---------------------------------------------
Decimal type still chugging along
---------------------------------------------
Facundo Batista updated `PEP 327`_ with what are close to the last
issues for the PEP. There has also been some recent activity in the
sandbox on the package. It could still make it into 2.4 ...
And it has! As I wrote this Decimal.py graduated kindergarten, left the
sandbox, and is now out on the playground with the rest of Lib. Play nice.
.. _PEP 327: http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0327.html
Contributing threads:
- `PEP 327 (Decimal data type) updated and status
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045434.html>`__
-------------------------------------------------
CVS docs, now in handy tarball form
-------------------------------------------------
Fred Drake has tweaked the script that puts up new versions of the CVS
docs to also upload a tarball of the HTML. You can find that and links
to the other in-development documentation at
http://www.python.org/dev/doc/ .
Contributing threads:
- `Downloadable HTML from the trunk
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045452.html>`__
---------------------------------------------
Proposed additions to heapq API
---------------------------------------------
Raymond Hettinger proposed adding two new functions to the heapq API.
heappushpop() would take an item, push it on to the heap, and then pop
off the smallest value. heapiter() would return a destructive iterator.
The actual implementation of heappushpop() got the most discussion.
No final decision has been made, so if either function sounds good to
you then do speak up.
Contributing threads:
- `heapq API
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045348.html>`__
---------------------------------------
Consolidation of CJK codecs
---------------------------------------
Hye-Shik Chang consolidated the various CJK codecs into various files
and managed to save some space in terms of the files themselves. As M-A
Lemburg pointed out, though, there was no need to in terms of loading
size since most linkers mmap only what is needed to run.
Contributing threads:
- `Planned updates for cjkcodecs before 2.4a1
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045415.html>`__
------------------------------------------------
Function decorators in 2.4 ... maybe
------------------------------------------------
The topic of whether function decorators would go into 2.4, and if so
with what syntax, continued to be debated from the `last summary`_.
Beyond reference implementations (which include an implementation not
requiring new syntax), nothing really changed. Overall people agreed
they would like to see it in 2.4 using whatever syntax Guido chooses
(and he has three in mind, so no more suggestions!), but if he felt the
need to wait then functionality would be held off for 2.5 .
Contributing threads:
- `functions decorators in 2.4?
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045440.html>`__
- `decorators and 2.4
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045516.html>`__
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Making ``''.join(list_of_strs)`` an inconsequential idiom
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
As most people know, concatenating strings in a 'for' loop is a bad
idea; the idiom you are supposed to use is to store the strings you want
to concatenate in a list and the pass it to ``''.join(list_of_strs)``.
This is because string addition requires allocating memory for the size
of the concatenation and then copying from both strings into the new
memory. The constant new memory allocation is costly when you have a
loop that goes for more than a few iterations.
Raymond Hettinger suggested altering the str object to have a pointer
that would point to any strings that were meant to be treated as
concatenated to the current string. The problem with this is that it
grew the str object the size of a pointer and that is costly for a
object as common as string.
Armin Rigo gave this challenge a shot and ended up with a bunch of code
that special-cases the BINARY_ADD opcode. Neither solution as been
accepted at this moment.
Contributing threads:
- `Wild Idea for the Year
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045488.html>`__
- `Building strings with +=
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045504.html>`__
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Possible exposure of universal newlines outside of the file object
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott David Daniels suggested a new itertools function that would work
like universal newlines but for strings or files already opened without
universal newlines turned on. People were receptive to the idea, just
not for putting it into itertools. Suggestions ranged from exposing the
functionality as a static method of the file type to sticking it into
'string'. No conclusion of where to put it was reached.
Contributing threads:
- `Possible addition to itertools
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045456.html>`__
----------------------------------
NOP does exist I tell you!
----------------------------------
Raymond Hettinger asked if anyone objected to adding a no-op opcode
(aptly named NOP). People said nope (see? "NOP", "nope", sound the
same? <eddie izzard>Forget it</eddie izzard>). So it's in.
Contributing threads:
- `NOP
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045491.html>`__
---------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, the Windows binary for 2.4 will use VC 7.1
---------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, Python 2.4 will use VC 7.1 . No, we are not going to have a VC 6
binary (you can build it if you want, though). No, distributing the
needed DLLs with the installer does not go against the GPL to the best
of our knowledge (even though the codebase is not GPL but more BSD and
no one from the FSF has told it including the DLLs is wrong). Maybe, we
will use Martin v. Loewis' MSI installer, maybe not (still being debated
as this was being written).
Contributing threads:
- `VC 7.1 maintenance?
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045357.html>`__
-------------------------------------
Possible itertools additions
-------------------------------------
Raymond Hettinger suggested two itertools additions; count_elements and
pairswap. The former counts the number of times an item appears in the
passed-in iterable and returns pairs of the count and the item. The
latter takes an iterable that returns pairs and returns an iterable that
returns those pairs swapped.
In the end people didn't see the need for pairswap. People did want
count_elements, but not as an iterator but as something that returned a
dictionary. It was suggested as both a class method of dict and as a
new bucket type that could possibly go into the 'collections' module.
No final decisions yet, though.
Contributing threads:
- `Candidate Itertools
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045394.html>`__
---------------------------------------------------------
Gettin' PEP 292 ("Simpler String Substitutions") into 2.4
---------------------------------------------------------
Barry Warsaw brought up the point that `PEP 292`_ was slated to go into
2.4 (it's currently in the sandbox). The two biggest questions was the
names of the new functions and where to stick them. The name issue was
not quite as bad once Barry explained the reasoning behind the existing
names.
Where to put the code, though, was not so easily dealt with. The
original idea (which Barry and I came up with, so I am biased here) was
to turn the string module into a package with the new code going there.
Barry also pointed out that the code in 'string' that is deprecated
and will eventually go away can be moved into an individual module that
can just simply be deleted from the package later and then dismissed
with the removal of a single ``import *`` line in __init__.py for the
package.
Not everyone saw the utopia Barry and I were trying to build. People
suggested just not bothering with turning 'string' into a package.
Still others suggested a new package altogether; 'stringlib' and 'text'
were suggested names. It's still not resolved.
.. _PEP 292: http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0292.html
Contributing threads:
- `PEP 292 for Python 2.4
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045406.html>`__
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Having u.encode() return something other than strings
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Currently unicode.encode() returns only strings. M-A Lemburg wanted to
lift this restriction. Guido pointed out that this could possibly cause
problems for type inferencing since the return type would vary based on
an argument (which made me happy since my masters thesis ties into this
stuff). A compromise was reached where the method will only return
8-bit or Unicode strings; basically only subtypes of basestring.
Contributing threads:
- `Allowing u.encode() to return non-strings
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045417.html>`__
--------------------------------------------------
Comparing floats and longs is a pain
--------------------------------------------------
Basically this all boiled down to this (quoted from Michael Chermside):
"when comparing a long with a float where the exponent is larger than
the precision, that the float should be treated as if it were EXACTLY
EQUAL TO <coefficient>*2^<exponent>, instead of trying to treat it as
some sort of a range." Guido said he would like to see this in 2.4 if
someone would write up the code and commit it.
Contributing threads:
- `Comparing heterogeneous types
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045460.html>`__
----------------------------------------------------------
German and Turkish docstrings from pydoc
----------------------------------------------------------
Martin v. Loewis is currently trying to figure out where to put partial
translations of docstrings in the stdlib for pydoc to use as appropriate.
Contributing threads:
- `Including translated doc strings in 2.4
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045490.html>`__
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What to do when 'raise' is called after the last exception was caught
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What should happen if you call 'raise' when you already caught the last
exception that was raised? People debated what the official docs said.
Seemed to coalesce to be what ever the last exception was; caught or
not. This ties into being what exception was currently stored.
Contributing threads:
- `Re-raise in absence of an "active" exception
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045497.html>`__
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Can you help with cleaning up the Demo directory?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Demo directory is in need of some TLC. A bunch of modules in there
are out of date and could use an update to current Python abilities. If
you care to help by submitting patches to update the code that would be
great. There is a large swath of code in there varying from extremely
simple to involved so if the mood ever strikes you there will be
something for everyone.
And if you attend the next Python Bug Day you can also work on it then.
Contributing threads:
- `What can we do about dealing with the Demo directory?
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045654.html>`__
--------------------------------------------------------------------
No more expected test failures on Windows for 2.4
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The bsddb tests are now expected to pass on Windows. What this means is
that failures are no longer the norm on Windows for the Python
regression testing suite.
Contributing threads:
- `Joy in Berkeley Windowsland
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045669.html>`__
------------------------------------------------------
Getting accessible local dicts per thread
------------------------------------------------------
Jim Fulton wanted to expose the pre-thread local dict . He has an
implementation going that he is going to play with and work the kinks
out of. After that the code will most likely be committed.
Contributing threads:
- `Proposal: thread.get_dict
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045681.html>`__
--------------------------------
Where to stick SHA-256
--------------------------------
Someone contributed a patch for adding SHA-256 support. A discussion
built up over where to put it, if at all. It's still going on at this
moment. Most people seem to agree that if it is included, it should
either just be another function in the sha module or that sha.sha()
should accept an optional argument specifying how many bits to use for
the hash.
Contributing threads:
- `SHA-256 module
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045724.html>`__
------------------------------------------
Making weakrefs subclassable
------------------------------------------
Fred Drake has a patch to add the ability to subclass weakrefs. He
wasn't sure if there would be a performance penalty though. But Tim
Peters stepped up and said there wouldn't be. So it looks like it
should go in shortly.
Contributing threads:
- `making weakref.ref objects subclassable
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045787.html>`__
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