python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15

[Anthony Baxter]

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:22:33 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
> Perhaps you could clarify your position a bit.  I think the
> "community" understands some fundamental difference between posting to
> python-dev and to python-list.  If not Aahz is normally there to
> remind them.
> 
> Guido's "genius" extends to marketing, IMO.
> 
> Having some sense of participation in the fate of Python, even if bit
> hullicinatory, is fundamental to the development of its following.  A
> clasic form of guerilla marketing.  Considering that the Python
> markteing budget in $ is 0, I think it would be a mistake to have the
> community believe that their only role is to read the release notes.

I think Brett might have overstated his case a little - I can
understand his frustration, though. The _overwhelming_ number of posts
on the subject of decorators have evidently not bothered to make the
slightest effort to read the past postings on the subject. Yes, part
of this is that the PEP wasn't up to date before a2. But I see many of
the same points being raised, again and again, without the poster
having bothered to read the previous posts and the replies to them,
often _in_ _the_ _same_ _thread_. Instead, there was a mass pile-on of
folks jumping up and down and screaming[1]

[1] I'm obviously not including everyone here. There's also been a
large number of insightful and carefully thought out posts.

_No-one_ is saying "we don't need to include the community". FFS, I'd
point to the something around 120 posts I've made to
c.l.py/python-list since a2 came out.

However (and this is what I think Brett was trying to get at) at a
certain point in any syntax discussion, it comes down to aesthetics,
and a judgement call. And the person who _I_ trust to make the best
judgement call on the subject of Python's aesthetics is Guido. He's
got an exceptionally good track record here. (I discount print >>,
which I still regard as horrible).

Go back and read some of the earlier posts after a2 came out. In many,
many cases they were full-on rants and raves, "how could Guido do
this?" and the like. I'm _quite_ confident that in many/most cases,
the people doing the ranting and raving had *not* bothered to download
the alpha and actually *try* *the* *syntax* *out*. Instead, we got
"ew! the @ symbol! That's perl!" or "decorators are stupid! No-one
needs them!"

Certainly, part of the reason many of my responses were strongly
worded in the days after the a2 release was that it was obvious the
posters were posting their immediate thoughts, as I said, without
bothering to stop and try the syntax out, or think about the issues a
little.

I'm all for community involvement. I recognise that we could have done
better in the days around the second alpha, and I've been trying
*damn* hard to make that better. But I don't see much point getting
community feedback if the feedback is unthinking abuse and uninformed
ranting. It's a two way street.