From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Fri Aug  6 09:08:05 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 13:08:05 GMT
Subject: tweaking @decorator syntax
References: <b03e80d.0408040809.66c50ecf@posting.google.com>
	<b03e80d.0408051504.19e33991@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1245.1091759909.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HBF.20040806bo35@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <eqv6h0dsoj3s0i1fblt0migb1833mga556@4ax.com>

On 06 Aug 2004 11:53:29 +0200, Hallvard B Furuseth
<h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no> wrote:
>
>Still, if we do get a new way to indicate that something is parsed
>differently, then a special character like @ would be good for that.
>'@some-directive' in general could be a statement which the compiler
>reacts to in some way, and decorators could be a special case:
>  @decorator <decorator_name>
>instead of just
>  @<decorator_name>


It's mildly interesting, and perhaps slightly relevant, that
'@some-directive' fools my news reader into thinking there is a email
address reference involved.

'@' seeming a strange choice for decorator syntax perhaps in part
because it already has a much more pandemic meaning, and in that
meaning the thing that is in fact '@'  the address precedes the
symbol.  The Python syntax will be the opposite. 

Though I find the arguments about viusal layout/ indentation the more
compelling, and don't think a change of symbol or the introduction of
a keyword in substitution for '@' will help with that more substantial
issue.

That being said, as a founding memeber of CLA (Chicken Littles
Anonymous), it is therapeutic to predict publically that Python will
survive the @ decorator syntax, should it stick.

Art


From alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 17 18:03:41 2004
From: alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 15:03:41 -0700
Subject: how to display unicode in a Label in Tkinter
References: <mailman.1790.1092746765.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <8f17f4bc.0408171403.313a4f8b@posting.google.com>

So how about this:

I open MS Word and use the Insert>Symbol method to insert the text I
want then copy that into the python editor?


From adurdin at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 22:38:22 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 12:38:22 +1000
Subject: tweaking @decorator syntax
In-Reply-To: <b03e80d.0408051504.19e33991@posting.google.com>
References: <b03e80d.0408040809.66c50ecf@posting.google.com>
	<b03e80d.0408051504.19e33991@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a04080519383aa7e6c3@mail.gmail.com>

On 5 Aug 2004 16:04:00 -0700, Sandy Norton <sandskyfly at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Here are some more variations.
> 
> Please copy/paste the code below into your favourite python editor and see
> how each syntactical variation of the decorator code reads, and how quickly
> you grok its structure and meaning.

*snip examples*

Of the examples above, I find the "Nested, 'decorate' keyword syntax"
by far the most clear. It has the following features (in no particular
order) which I find attractive:

1. The nesting makes it abundantly clear what the decoration applies
to, namely the function definitions at the next indentation level. And
the colon at the end of the "decorate" line is consistent with all
other Python keywords which result in another indentation level (def,
if, class, etc.) -- which is one reason why I dislike the "nested
@decorator" and "nested |decorator|" options. The "Nested, minimal
decorator syntax" has indentation, but lacks clarity: it appears
merely to be one or a sequence of function calls followed inexplicably
by a nested block.

2. The nesting makes it convenient to apply the same decoration to
multiple functions, which I guess will be fairly common wherever
decorators are used.

3. It doesn't involve adding any additional punctuation to the
language. I strongly believe that the general lack of punctuation
contributes greatly towards Python's readability.

4. The comma-separated list of decorators allows for more compactness
without sacrificing legibility when multiple decorators are used.


Whereas I quite dislike the @ syntax, for almost opposite reasons:

5. In appearance it looks like a special kind of statement; and it is
not at all obvious to me that it is rather a kind of attribute or
modifier of the following function definition. I don't know of any
other construction in Python that performs a similar, unmarked (i.e.
non-explicit) modification of the following statement. So to me the
@syntax comes across as extremely un-Pythonic (by that I mean
radically inconsistent with the conventions of the rest of the
language). For this same reason, I dislike all the proposed syntaxes
which involve placing something before the "def" without a subsequent
indented block.

6. When using the same sets of decorators for multiple
functions/methods in the same module/class, the @ syntax is
inconvenient, as the decorators need to be repeated for each function.
(Of course, the current (2.3) syntax to achieve the same result is
similarly inconvenient; the @ syntax adds no benefit in this regard,
but the "decorate" syntax does).

7. The @ syntax adds more punctuation to Python's syntax: a Bad Thing.
Despite the risk of breaking compatibility with some older programs, I
firmly believe that adding new keywords is a much better idea in
general than adding new punctuation, because (a) keywords are more
readable (especially to those unfamiliar with them), and (b) there is
a very limited supply of punctuation marks on the keyboard, but a very
large supply of words.

8. When using multiple decorators, each appears on a separate line.
This not only confuses things with respect to point 5 above (e.g. does
the first decorator somehow decorate the second, or do both apply to
the function?), but also is IMO unnecessarily lengthy, as each line
has the same basic purpose; In analogy, the latter is similar to the
difference between
    x = 1
    y = 2
    z = 3
and
   x, y, z = 1, 2, 3
where a compact representation is possible and suitable where the
three variables are relating to the same purpose within the program.

-- Andrew Durdin


From mwh at python.net  Sat Aug  7 15:44:59 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 19:44:59 GMT
Subject: upper memory limit
References: <mailman.1328.1091861642.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m33c2yrav9.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Leandro <leandro_ricardo at yahoo.com> writes:

> There is an upper memory limit in Python?
> I have 2GB RAM and 2 processors Xeon 2.4 - (Windows XP), but I just can use
> 1.2G of memory, after this python crashes.
> Does someone know if python has some memory limit?

Not deliberately :-) What are you filling all that memory with?  What
does "crash" mean?  MemoryError, or something more exciting?

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  ... when all the programmes on all the channels actually were made
  by actors with cleft pallettes speaking lines by dyslexic writers
  filmed by blind cameramen instead of merely seeming like that, it
  somehow made the whole thing more worthwhile.   -- HHGTG, Episode 11


From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Fri Aug 20 14:30:22 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:30:22 +0200
Subject: classes are objects... so how can we custom print them: we need
 a classmethod syntax
In-Reply-To: <b68d2f19.0408201011.7b5eab21@posting.google.com>
References: <b68d2f19.0408201011.7b5eab21@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <2omu6eFcj75uU1@uni-berlin.de>

Neil Zanella wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> In Python, classes are objects. But there is no way to custom print a class
> object. This would require some syntax such as the one commented out below:
> With the current "foo = classmethod(foo)" mechanism custom printing for
> class objects is not possible.
> 
> #!/usr/bin/python
> 
> class Foo:
>   def __str__(self):
>     return "foo"
>   #def classmethod __str__(cls):
>   #  return "pythons bite"
> 
> foo = Foo()
> s = "hello %s!" % foo # custom text here
> print s
> 
> print Foo # no custom text here possible it seems, unless we call
>           # a staticmethod such as Foo.printMe()

You need Metaclasses for that. Consider:

>>> class PrintTest(object):
...     class __metaclass__(type):
...         def __str__(self):
...             return "I'm a PrintTest"
...
>>> print PrintTest
I'm a PrintTest
>>>

Reinhold

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Wed Aug 25 23:36:50 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 03:36:50 GMT
Subject: Is it a bug (or a feature)?
References: <mailman.2348.1093434827.5135.python-list@python.org><tW%Wc.22419$v86.11990@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<mailman.2373.1093455703.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <mVcXc.28611$v86.3962@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"Anthony Baxter" <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2373.1093455703.5135.python-list at python.org...
> This looks like a bug. Please open a bug on SF, with the example code.

Do you mean me or the OP?

-- Paul




From paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it  Thu Aug 26 04:28:14 2004
From: paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it (Paolo Veronelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:28:14 +0200
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>



Anthony Baxter wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:47:35 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>What you're trying to illustrate (I believe) is a superclass doing
>>something based on the docstring of a subclass.  Yes this certainly does
>>happen.  But the superclass and subclass are separate objects.  I was
>>talking about the situation where a function does something based on
>>/its own/ metadata.  That is what I'm saying virtually never happens,
>>and therefore it's ok to make all assignments to __xxx__ attributes
>>inside of a function def create /function attributes/ rather than /local
>>variables/.
> 
> 
> This is an extraordinarily complex idea - you're proposing that inside
> a function there is now access to a brand new namespace, that of the
> function object itself. I don't think you appreciate just _how_ much
> work this would requre, nor the complexity of trying to explain this
> to users. Remember, at the moment, you can't even get access to the
> function object itself from inside the function, without using a hack
> like sys._getframe() or raising an exception.

It's not the ideas complexity that fears,but the feeling we are trying 
to bring down to earth the supposed magic of some language solutions.
There is nothing good in magic,specially when you have to build robust 
things on it.


> Putting aside nested scopes for the moment, there are three namespaces
> that are used in Python - local, module level global, and builtins.
> You're proposing that there is a new namespace, that of the function
> object, and that it only be used by accessing any local variable that
> starts or ends with two underscores. At the moment, the scoping rules
> for Python are _extremely_ simple. Do you really want to add something
> like this, that looks like a hack, smells like a hack, and who's
> implementation would be a hack? I know I don't want to see something
> like this.

If this blows away clouds on the language future and bring back the 
useful features in a wider theory where metaclasses and decorators are 
members of,this shouldn't be considered a hack.If it becomes a hack the 
problem is to be searched and solved above generalizing the scope system.




From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 12 20:13:53 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 20:13:53 -0400
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1578.1092354902.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1578.1092354902.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <411c07c1$1@nntp.zianet.com>

Michael Sparks wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Mark Bottjer wrote:
>>class C:
>>   def c(self):
>>     meta: #declare, decorate, transform, fubar, whatever...
>>       staticmethod
>>       doc('Doc.')
>>     pass
> 
> FWIW, I _personally_ prefer this approach, and the reason I implemented J2
> was solely because I went a) "oooh", b) it looks like it has the same
> advantages as the @pies c) the number of times it's been pointed out that
> syntaxes with decorators inside the function won't go anywhere, d) The
> wiki page said (sorta) that it couldn't be  done.

Just out of curiosity, how hard do you think it would be to implement 
this syntax? I know there's not much point, but just for giggles...

   -- Mark


From peter at engcorp.com  Wed Aug  4 13:59:46 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 13:59:46 -0400
Subject: web resources to explain why Python is best?
In-Reply-To: <41111c24$0$26982$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com>
References: <41111c24$0$26982$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com>
Message-ID: <ocOdnbvlxaeLuYzcRVn-sA@powergate.ca>

davout wrote:

> Can anybody point me at some web resources that explain why Python is better
> than Perl, TCL, Ruby etc?

See the article titled something like "Python vs. Perl according to ..."
that is at the very end of the first page returned by Google in response
to this search:

   http://www.google.com/search?q=python+is+better+than+perl

By the way, I highly recommend learning to use Google.  It's a very
effective tool, and avoids wasting lots of other people's time when
you have a question which is inevitably going to have been asked
many times in the past.... (hint hint)

-Peter


From daniel at syrinx.net  Mon Aug 16 13:09:11 2004
From: daniel at syrinx.net (Daniel Ellison)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:09:11 -0400
Subject: Flython?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1747.1092675573.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca><411cbcb1$0$3894$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net><W9qdnWhf8u7MI4HcRVn-ow@powergate.ca><30260531.0408131856.5ef3b0d3@posting.google.com><sMednfL4zqTR3b3cRVn-rA@powergate.ca>	<2oc547F86br8U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<mailman.1747.1092675573.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2oc7ufF86br8U2@uni-berlin.de>

Mike Rovner wrote:

> Daniel Ellison wrote:
> 
>>Peter Hansen wrote:
> 
> 
>>>to come.  Flash has a compact bytecode, while SVG comes
>>>as XML.  Need I say more?
>>
>>Nope! :)
> 
> 
> OTOH, Flash bytecode is proprientary and may change "without notice", SVG is
> an open standard. Client machines spped is also tend to increase.
> 
> I wish bytecode format be published somewhere. ;)
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 

The swf file format is proprietary, yes, but the spec is public; you can 
download it from Macromedia's web site, as Peter did recently.


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Wed Aug  4 09:56:56 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Wed,  4 Aug 2004 23:56:56 +1000
Subject: Perl's Crypt::PasswdMD5
In-Reply-To: <ceqoul$ept$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
References: <ceqoul$ept$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <1091627816.4110eb2887355@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

the pycrypto package at http://www.amk.ca/python/code/crypto.html
has MD5 and a few other digests and other cryptography tools

cheers

--
Ajay Brar,
CS Honours 2004
Smart Internet Technology Research Group


Quoting Bart Nessux <bart_nessux at hotmail.com>:

> Does Python have anything similar to Perl's Crypt::PasswdMD5???
>
> I read about the crypt module... but it only does DES. Any plans to add
> md5 or other digests to it in the future?
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Fri Aug 13 01:47:01 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:47:01 -0700
Subject: Displaying images stored as binary in MySQL
References: <c9e6ac92.0408122047.1e3a4309@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1092376445.837409@news.commspeed.net>


"Blaktyger" <blaktyger at hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c9e6ac92.0408122047.1e3a4309 at posting.google.com...
> How can this be done? Images are stored in a LONGBLOB field. When I
> try to display them, it prints out the binary data as it is...
>
> Thank you
 You could get PIL at http://www.pythonware.com/products/pil/

and try the Image.fromstring() function.

Tom




From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 23:14:01 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 23:14:01 -0400
Subject: http://www.freecrm.com
In-Reply-To: <voSdnX_nqaB-77zcRVn-pA@comcast.com>
References: <voSdnX_nqaB-77zcRVn-pA@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <B7mdnW1jCftn6rzcRVn-pA@powergate.ca>

Carol Carrot wrote:

> In what ways would I get dorked if I use this website?

1. Please define "dorked" in this context.

2. What, if anything, does this have to do with Python.

3. Why do you think we might know anything about that site?

-Peter



From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Aug 10 03:37:35 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 09:37:35 +0200
Subject: profile stats interpretation
References: <mailman.1377.1092034301.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cf9tvv$h1t$00$1@news.t-online.com>

Robert Brewer wrote:

> I've been working on optimizing some code (yes, it really needs it--it's
> too slow ;) -- decided to use hotshot. I'm assuming things about the
> output of hotshot.stats that I want to verify before I make decisions
> off of them.
> 
> Here's an example of output I'm getting. I coded the same function 3
> different ways--it's basically a type coercer. Each method results in
> different stats (for the same request):
> 
>    ncalls  tottime  percall  cumtime  percall filename:lineno(function)
>     17582    0.670    0.000    1.428    0.000 logic.py:133(coerce)
> 
>    ncalls  tottime  percall  cumtime  percall filename:lineno(function)
>     17582    0.509    0.000    1.829    0.000 logic.py:133(coerce)
> 
>    ncalls  tottime  percall  cumtime  percall filename:lineno(function)
>     17582    0.604    0.000    1.202    0.000 logic.py:133(coerce)
> 
> The question is: which of these three should I keep? Is "tottime" the
> time of the code within coerce(), without regard to functions called
> from coerce()? If so, it seems method #2 is superior. Finally, why might

Judging from http://docs.python.org/lib/module-profile.html I would think
so. However, You should always pick a function based on its cumulated time.
If tottime is low in relation to cumtime that would merely be a hint that
you should rather optimize the called functions (not an option in your
example) or replace them which may require other changes to the caller
(which is what you did).

> #3 have a much lower cumtime but higher tottime than #2, given that I
> didn't change any other code? Hmmm.
> 
> 
> FWIW, here's the function.
> 
> Method #1:
>     
>     def coerce(self, value, valuetype=None):
>         if valuetype is None:

Instead of

>             valuetype = type(value)

              valuetype =  value.__class__

might work, too.

>         try:
>             xform = self.processors[valuetype]
>         except KeyError:
>             xform = self.default_processor

              # assuming the normal type/value ratio the following
              # line could drastically increase your hit rate.
              self.processors[valuetype] = xform

>         return xform(value)
> 
> Method #2:
>     
>     def coerce(self, value, valuetype=None):
>         if valuetype is None:
>             valuetype = type(value)
>         xform = self.processors.get(valuetype, self.default_processor)
>         return xform(value)
> 
> Method #3:
> 
>     def coerce(self, value, valuetype=None):
>         if valuetype is None:
>             valuetype = type(value)
>         if valuetype in self.processors:
>             xform = self.processors[valuetype]
>         else:
>             xform = self.default_processor
>         return xform(value)
> 
> 
> Any advice would be appreciated.

Once you have spotted a single slow function in heavy usage you can resort
to a micro-optimization tool like timeit. A function is "slow" when your
app spends a long time in it and the subroutine calls are necessary and
cannot be optimized themselves. Then picking the variant with the smallest
cumulated time should be a no-brainer.

Put another way, hotshot is useful to find the hotspots, i. e. the functions
that need optimizing, but not the optimization itself.

(Silly disclaimer: I have not yet worked with hotshot, so take this with
caution - the experts all seem to be redecorating :-)

Peter



From lbates at swamisoft.com  Mon Aug  2 17:10:24 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:10:24 -0500
Subject: How to clear previous console output?
References: <cem5jm$pcs@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <SaadnSg4BcVdMJPcRVn-gQ@comcast.com>

Try this class I use on both Linux and Windows
(console apps).  See main program for example
usage.

HTH,
Larry Bates


class progressbarClass:
    def __init__(self, finalcount, progresschar=None):
        import sys
        self.finalcount=finalcount
        self.blockcount=0
        #
        # See if caller passed me a character to use on the
        # progress bar (like "*").  If not use the block
        # character that makes it look like a real progress
        # bar.
        #
        if not progresschar: self.block=chr(178)
        else:                self.block=progresschar
        #
        # Get pointer to sys.stdout so I can use the write/flush
        # methods to display the progress bar.
        #
        self.f=sys.stdout
        #
        # If the final count is zero, don't start the progress gauge
        #
        if not self.finalcount : return
        self.f.write('\n------------------ %
Progress -------------------1\n')
        self.f.write('    1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9    0\n')
        self.f.write('----0----0----0----0----0----0----0----0----0----0\n')
        return

    def progress(self, count):
        #
        # Make sure I don't try to go off the end (e.g. >100%)
        #
        count=min(count, self.finalcount)
        #
        # If finalcount is zero, I'm done
        #
        if self.finalcount:
            percentcomplete=int(round(100*count/self.finalcount))
            if percentcomplete < 1: percentcomplete=1
        else:
            percentcomplete=100

        #print "percentcomplete=",percentcomplete
        blockcount=int(percentcomplete/2)
        #print "blockcount=",blockcount
        if blockcount > self.blockcount:
            for i in range(self.blockcount,blockcount):
                self.f.write(self.block)
                self.f.flush()

        if percentcomplete == 100: self.f.write("\n")
        self.blockcount=blockcount
        return

if __name__ == "__main__":
    from time import sleep
    pb=progressbarClass(8,"*")
    count=0
    while count<9:
        count+=1
        pb.progress(count)
        sleep(0.2)

    pb=progressbarClass(100)
    pb.progress(20)
    sleep(0.2)
    pb.progress(47)
    sleep(0.2)
    pb.progress(90)
    sleep(0.2)
    pb.progress(100)
    print "testing 1:"
    pb=progressbarClass(1)
    pb.progress(1)

"Newgene" <newgene at bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:cem5jm$pcs at odbk17.prod.google.com...
> Hi, group,
> May I ask a newbie question?
>
> Given the below example:
>
> for i in range(100):
> print "%s%%" % i
>
> I want to show the progress by print 1% to 100%. But I hope  each
> output will clear the previous output before print, so that I can see a
> dynamic updated display of percentage, instead of print all percentages
> one by one. How can I do that(what about on both windows and unix
> platform)?
>
> Thank you in advance for your expertise.
>
> Best,
>
> Cl
>




From dennis.benzinger at gmx.net  Fri Aug 20 07:25:19 2004
From: dennis.benzinger at gmx.net (Dennis Benzinger)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 04:25:19 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3734459e.0408200325.4d413ea2@posting.google.com>

My favorites are: J2 J2 K


From ndeskins at ecn.purdue.edu  Mon Aug 16 11:16:11 2004
From: ndeskins at ecn.purdue.edu (Aaron Deskins)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:16:11 -0500
Subject: Newbie question about file input
Message-ID: <cfqj3s$cti$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>

Hello everyone,
   I'm trying to make a simple python script that will read a text file 
with a bunch of chess games and tell me how many games there are. The 
common format for such chess games is the .pgn format (which is just a 
text file) with the following being typical (with the following file 
having 2 games):

[Event "Quizzes"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "6k1/5p2/8/4p3/pp1qPn2/5P2/PP2B3/2Q2K2 b - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "5"]

1... Qg1+ 2. Kxg1 Nxe2+ 3. Kf1 Nxc1 *

[Event "Quizzes"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/r4pbk/4p2p/8/p5R1/Pq3N1P/1P1Q1PP1/6K1 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "5"]

1. Rxg7+ Kxg7 2. Qd4+ Kf8 3. Qxa7 *


Basically every game starts with the [Event "..."] header and then the 
information about the game is given.

My first attempt at the python script is:

#! /usr/bin/env python
import string
import sys
zf=open('test.pgn','r')
# games is number of games
games = 0
while 1:
  line = zf.readline()
  if line == '':
    break
  ls = line.split()
  print ls[0]
  if ls[0] == '[Event':
   games+=1
zf.close()
print games


I'm having problems when the script reads a blank line from the pgn 
file. I get the following error message:
   IndexError: list index out of range
The problem is that ls[0] does not exist when a blank line is read. What 
would be the best way of fixing this?





-- 
Aaron Deskins
Graduate Student
Chemical Engineering
Purdue University


From jh at nospam.com  Sun Aug 29 06:54:41 2004
From: jh at nospam.com (Hillairet Julien)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 12:54:41 +0200
Subject: [PIL] about the difference between pudata and putpixel
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.29.10.54.40.204024@nospam.com>

Hello,

I don't understand how "putdata" from the PIL works :

I've got a (N,N) matrix : "color" (an array from numarray lib.), where
(N,N) is the size of a image.

The next code, give to each pixel of the image the color (an integer
0~255) which is associate in the "color" matrix (an integer matrix,
0~255). It works well, but it's a bit slow:

for i in range(N):
    for j in range(N):
        im.putpixel((i,j), color[i][j])

Although, this code doesn't work:

im.putdata(color)

There is no error message, but the image's pixels stay black (0) ! (The
color matrix is not an 0-matrix !)


Is someone can explain me my misunderstanding of putdata ?


Thanks a lot,

Julien Hillairet


From tim.hochberg at ieee.org  Fri Aug 20 11:37:51 2004
From: tim.hochberg at ieee.org (Tim Hochberg)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:37:51 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <ZFoVc.360$MR2.1503@news1.mts.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl>
	<ZFoVc.360$MR2.1503@news1.mts.net>
Message-ID: <cg55sn$bmb$1@sea.gmane.org>

Reid Nichol wrote:
> Gerrit Muller wrote:
> 
>> Roel Schroeven wrote:
>>
>>> Roel Schroeven wrote:
>>>
>>>> I spotted some errors in your list, added new entries, and made a 
>>>> histogram: http://roelschroeven.net/pythonages/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Very cool. It might be good idea to add a date and time at the top, 
>> since new datapoint keep coming in?
> 
> How about labels for the axes as well.
> 
> 
>> and then a quantum leap towards Python.
> 
> You're aware that a quantum leap means a extremely small leap, right?

While quanta are typically very-very-very small, last I checked the key 
feature of quantum transitions is not that they're small, but that there 
are no intermediate steps. The object is in state A then it's in state 
B, but it's never halfway (or anywhere) between. Like most quantum stuff 
it's better not to think about that too closely.

-tim



From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Thu Aug 26 11:54:43 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:54:43 +0200
Subject: object.*
References: <a1d2c9b4.0408260741.3a474bd8@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgl13v$qs7$03$1@news.t-online.com>

DeadWisdom wrote:

> I think there should be an ability in python to write something like
> "object.*" which should return a dictionary object containing all the
> members and their values for the given object.  Maybe ".*" could be
> treated as an operator. ::shrug::
> 
> Perhaps the functionality already exists in some other syntax; if so
> please splain.


dict([(n, getattr(object, n)) for n in dir(object)])

Not really worth an operator :)

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no  Tue Aug 24 04:40:27 2004
From: mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no (Magnus Lie Hetland)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:40:27 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Standard graph API?
References: <slrncik8tm.4g.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
	<YssWc.503921$Gx4.282534@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
	<slrnciklv0.e8q.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
	<eppstein-4A56C8.14042623082004@news.service.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <slrncilvnq.6m0.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>

In article <eppstein-4A56C8.14042623082004 at news.service.uci.edu>,
David Eppstein wrote:
[snip]
>I would strongly prefer not to have weights or similar attributes as 
>part of a graph API.  I would rather have the weights be a separate dict 
>or function or whatever passed to the graph algorithm.  The main reason 
>is that I might want the same algorithm to be applied to the same graph 
>with a different set of weights.

I can see that.

[snip stuff about using dicts]

This can be said about all objects, really; no reason to have
attributes as long as we can associate values with the objects using
dicts. This is where things start to look implementation-specific,
even though it is *possible* to keep it abstract using this interface.

One of my motivations is allowing arbitrary structures behind the
scenes, e.g. the graph may be a front-end for something that is
computed on-the-fly using specialized hardware (in fact a very real
possibilit in my case). I could have something like this be
represented by several distinct objects (e.g. one for the topological
structure, one for the weights), of course, but I'd certainly have to
implement the weight mapping myself, and not use built-in dicts.

I do think your API is nice in that it is simple, but I also have the
feeling that using it with other implementations would be sort of
unnatural; one would be trying to emulate the "dict-of-lists with
dicts for properties" implementation, because that implementation
*would* have been simple -- had one used it.

Also, again, this doesn't lend itself very well to manipulating
graphs. If I set one weight to infinity, I might expect (perhaps) the
corresponding edge to disappear (otherwise the graph would have to be
complete in the first place) or similar things; there may also be
other dependencies between properties. Not easily handled with a
separate object for each property. And using functions for everything
that needs calculating doesn't easily lead to polymorphism...

It's not horribly inconvenient, of course (just a matter of defining a
few objects referring to the same underlying mechanism, each with
a different __getitem__ method). I'm just airing my thoughts about why
it *might* be useful to have something else -- possibly in addition.

Perhaps one could have something like two levels? The Level 1 Graph
API would support the "graph as mapping from nodes to neighbors" with
"properties as separate mappings" and the Level 2 Graph API could add
some convenience methods/properties for encapsulation and
manipulation?

[snip]
> I think this may contradict some things I said a year or two ago
> about using a dict-of-dicts representation in which G[v][w] provides
> the weight;

Yeah, I remember you saying that :)

> I've changed my mind.

Fair enough. FWIW, I agree with your new position when it comes to the
simple dict-based implementation; this is basically how it's done in
pseudocode, usually (e.g. having pi[v] represent the predecessor of v
and so forth).

-- 
Magnus Lie Hetland     "Canned Bread: The greatest thing since sliced
http://hetland.org      bread!" [from a can in Spongebob Squarepants]


From Florian.Lindner at xgm.de  Sun Aug 29 11:29:24 2004
From: Florian.Lindner at xgm.de (Florian Lindner)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:29:24 +0200
Subject: os.walk: Get entire path
Message-ID: <cgssom$hu6$00$1@news.t-online.com>

Hello,
when I'm walking through a file system hierarchy using os.walk, how can I
get the full path of a file or dir? normpath and abspath don't work.
Thx,
Florian


From krajicek at ics.muni.cz  Thu Aug 12 13:43:49 2004
From: krajicek at ics.muni.cz (Ondrej Krajicek)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:43:49 GMT
Subject: Keyword substitution in string
Message-ID: <I2CH9G.I09@news.muni.cz>


Hello,

in my application, I want to do keyword substituion in
a string from a dictionary. The problem is indeed
easy to solve, but seems quite common to me, so I wonder
wheter there is already a function in Python which
does just that.

I want to substitute values for keywords in strings,
the keywords and values are stored in a dictionary.

Something like this:

def subst(string, dict):
	...

where:

subst('Hello, <key1> <key2>!', {'key1': 'Python', 'key2': 'rules' })

gives:

'Hello, Python rules!'

The keyword quoting style does not matter.

Thanks,

Ondra

-- 
____________________________\\--//_________________________
Ondrej Krajicek              \\//      krajicek at ics.muni.cz
Institute of Computer Science,||Masaryk University Brno, CR
_____________________________//\\__________________________


From mensanator at aol.com  Thu Aug 19 19:49:02 2004
From: mensanator at aol.com (mensanator at aol.com)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 16:49:02 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
Message-ID: <cg3e9e$u8b@odbk17.prod.google.com>

Roel Schroeven wrote:
> Only Event Horizon on TV tonight...

What network?

For those who haven't seen it, I call a half filled bottle
of Coke that's been frozen solid an "Event Horizon" for the
explosive decompression that happens when you open it.



From cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca  Wed Aug 25 23:22:22 2004
From: cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca (David M. Cooke)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 23:22:22 -0400
Subject: numarray speed question
References: <953AD3D0Didtoken@128.91.2.239>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408040845120.27254-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<953C4DD4idtoken@128.91.2.239>
	<qnkr7qluxuy.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
	<144d0df.0408070828.338f8c19@posting.google.com>
	<qnkn015ujoh.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
	<9540516Didtoken@128.91.2.239>
	<qnkisbrv8r9.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
	<144d0df.0408251616.5758d6e7@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.2396.1093481861.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <qnkd61eshw1.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>

At some point, Tim Hochberg <tim.hochberg at ieee.org> wrote:
> grv575 wrote:
>
> Is it possible to do single precision ffts in numarray or
>> no?
>
> I believe so, but I'm not sure off the top of my head. I recommend
> that you ask on numpy-discussion
> <numpy-discussion at lists.sourceforge.net> or peek at the
> implementation. It's possible that all FFTs are done double precision,
> but I don't think so.

Looks like the numarray.fft package uses doubles.

If you really need floats, SciPy wraps the single- and
double-precision versions of FFTW. (Although SciPy uses Numeric, not
numarray).

Or, you can make your own version of numarray.fft using floats
(actually looks to relatively simple to do).

-- 
|>|\/|<
/--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
|David M. Cooke
|cookedm(at)physics(dot)mcmaster(dot)ca


From cousinstanley at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 18 16:03:36 2004
From: cousinstanley at hotmail.com (Cousin Stanley)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 20:03:36 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <2ohr0nFakl4sU1@uni-berlin.de>

On 2004-08-18, Lucas Raab <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote:

| One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age 
| of a Python programmer ?? 
|
| What age groups use Python ?? 
|
| Something to think about....

>>> import time
>>>
>>> tup_lt = time.localtime()
>>>
>>> now_yr = tup_lt[ 0 ]
>>> now_mo = tup_lt[ 1 ]
>>> now_da = tup_lt[ 2 ]
>>>
>>> dob_yr = 1946
>>> dob_mo = 8
>>> dob_da = 9
>>>
>>> dy     = now_yr - dob_yr
>>> dm     = now_mo - dob_mo
>>> dd     = now_da - dob_da
>>>
>>> print '\n    %d Years .... %d Months .... %d Days .... Old \n' % ( dy , dm , dd )

    58 Years .... 0 Months .... 9 Days .... Old

>>>


-- 
Cousin Stanley
Human Being
Phoenix, Arizona


From james.collier at xtra.co.nz  Wed Aug 11 19:58:34 2004
From: james.collier at xtra.co.nz (James Collier)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 23:58:34 -0000
Subject: Capturing repeating group matches in regular expressions
In-Reply-To: <m37js6os04.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
References: <mailman.1489.1092220861.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20040811235834.45616.qmail@cyberdyne.co.mars>

Michael Hudson [ mwh at python.net ] writes:

> James Collier <james.collier at xtra.co.nz> writes:
> 
>> Is it possible to capture the results of repeating group matches in
>> the python regular expression module?
> 
> Not easily; there's a small dicussion on python-dev at the moment
> about this.  Erik Heneryd hacked up something that might be useful:
> 
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/attachments/20040810/a5e602ab/structmatch.py
> 
> And there's always the "use a real parser" option :-)
> 
> Cheers,
> mwh

Many thanks for the answer Michael - I take your point on the "real parser" 
option, but I don't feel that the nut I'm cracking has that thick a shell.  

It is some coincidence that this should be under current discussion on 
python-dev.  For what it's worth, I'd support Mike Coleman's PEP.

To give some more background, I'm tweaking someone else's code and therefore
I want to keep the change as concise as is reasonable. structmatch() is exactly 
what I'm looking for - but for now I'll just split the task into two parts.

  Thanks again -- James.


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Mon Aug 23 14:11:56 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 14:11:56 -0400
Subject: Has anyone implemented BASIC in Python?
References: <2oo13eFcj548U1@uni-berlin.de> <41295D22.8702D583@alcyone.com>
Message-ID: <cgdc1c$bj8$1@panix2.panix.com>

In article <41295D22.8702D583 at alcyone.com>,
Erik Max Francis  <max at alcyone.com> wrote:
>Leif K-Brooks wrote:
>>
>> Has anyone ever tried implementing a simple unstructured BASIC dialect
>> in Python? I'm getting interested in language implementation, and
>> looking at a reasonably simple example like that could be pretty
>> interesting.
>
>On a whim, I implemented a Python BASIC interpreter which supported all
>statements in primitive BASIC, but got bored before I implemented all
>the standard operators in expressions.

For some reason, I thought that after "but" you were going to write,
"...but I don't have the proof handy."  ;-)
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au  Tue Aug 10 03:01:41 2004
From: sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au (Sam Holden)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 07:01:41 GMT
Subject: Python equivalent to a C trick
References: <1d7b6d0d.0408092255.1177908e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <slrnchgsml.8e4.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>

On 9 Aug 2004 23:55:08 -0700, Dan <danmoskowitz at gmail.com> wrote:
> Is there a python equivalent of this trick in C?
>
> Logic_Test ? True_Result : False_Result
>
> Example:
> printf( "you have %i %s", num_eggs, num_eggs > 1 ? "eggs" : "egg" );

print "you have %i %s" % ( num_eggs, ("egg","eggs")[num_eggs>1] )

But I don't know if int(False)==0 and int(True)==1 are actually
guaranteed. And I wouldn't use it since it's ugly (IMHO).

You don't get the "only evaluate one" goodness of ?:

-- 
Sam Holden


From rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm  Tue Aug 24 03:50:42 2004
From: rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm (Roel Schroeven)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 07:50:42 GMT
Subject: Time-date as an integer
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2271.1093328889.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2271.1093328889.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <mrCWc.223856$ka.10924150@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

Charles Hixson wrote:
> This is a concept, not a finished program, and an extract from a class 
> at that...so forgive any illegalities, but:
> import    datetime;
>  def    calcNodeId(self):
>    t    =    datetime.utcnow()
>    val    =    t.year *    133920000000    +          #    12 months
>                    t.month    *    11160000000    +    #    31 days
>                    t.hour    *    3600000000    +         #    60 minutes
>                    t.minute    *    60000000    +         #    60 seconds
>                    t.second    *    1000000    +    t.microsecond
>    if    val <=    self._dTime:
>      val    =    self._dTime + 1
>    self._dTime    =    val
>    return    val
> 
> This is the best that I've been able to come up with in getting a 
> date-time as an integer.  It feels like one of the time or date 
> libraries should have a better solution, but if so, I haven't found it.  
> Can anyone suggest a better approach?

int(time.time())

That gives only second precision, though.

Calculations such as the one above can be simplified somewhat by grouping:

val = t.microsecond +
       1000000 * (t.second +
                  60 * (t.minute +
                        60 * (t.hour +
                              24 * (t.day +    # (you forgot this one)
                                    31 * (t.month +
                                          12 * year)))))

Or with less indentation, I used it here just to make the grouping clear.

-- 
"Codito ergo sum"
Roel Schroeven


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Mon Aug  2 10:44:38 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 10:44:38 -0400
Subject: The term "Protocol"
References: <pan.2004.07.31.12.27.23.547000@hotmail.com>
	<1f7befae04080117515cbb0ca9@mail.gmail.com>
	<6910338109.20040801192523@
	<mailman.1042.1091409923.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <celk0m$b65$1@panix3.panix.com>

[cc'ing Alex so he can jump in if he wants]

In article <mailman.1042.1091409923.5135.python-list at python.org>,
Bruce Eckel  <BruceEckel at MailBlocks.com> wrote:
>
>I know the term "protocol" has been used to describe a language feature
>in a number of languages, but since we have no official "protocol"
>support in Python I'm interested in what "we" mean by this term. I'm
>going to guess that a protocol is like an interface in Java, except
>that it doesn't have a concrete definition anywhere, but it is implied
>through convention and use. Thus a protocol is a "latent interface." Am
>I close? I'd like to understand this term better.

Alex Martelli gave an excellent presentation on Design Patterns at OSCON,
where he made the point that "interface" is roughly equivalent to syntax,
whereas "protocol" is roughly equivalent to syntax plus semantics.  In
other words, computer langauges rarely (if ever -- although I suppose
Eiffel comes close) enforce protocols in any meaningful way.

I'm hoping Alex posts his slides soon.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Tue Aug 10 15:17:13 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:17:13 -0400
Subject: decorators vs GIL
In-Reply-To: <cfb4u4$okp$1@eol.dd.chalmers.se>
References: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>
	<0bidnfbR2_PZOIjcRVn-pA@giganews.com>
	<e69d3ed2040808011667ddee7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.1464.1092156423.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cfb4u4$okp$1@eol.dd.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408101504070.9982-100000@ccc2.wpi.edu>

On 10 Aug 2004, Jacob Hallen wrote:

> >That a fairly bright guy (Greg Stein) removed it once and found
> >performance to be disappointing doesn't advocate strongly for removal
> >of the GIL either.
> 
> So, what we really want to do is to remove the GIL, and keep it.
> 
> Ignoring trivialities like practical implementation, we can do this, since
> the moment we start running our program, we will be able to find out
> if we are running in an environment were we have access to multiple
> processors (and if the program has the ability to use them (at least most
> of the time)). If we can use multi-processing, we invoke a Python
> interpreter with fine grained locking, otherwise we stick with the
> GIL.

The real reason behind the GIL is that the Python interpreter is not
re-entrant; it keeps internal state in a global structure which must be
switched out (and stored somewhere) on thread changes.  The real solution
to this problem is to make the interpreter stateless, thus obviating the
need for the GIL entirely.  I think this task would be much easier to do
in Stackless than in CPython, but I may be wrong.



From kirk at eyegor.jobsluder.net  Fri Aug 27 12:10:39 2004
From: kirk at eyegor.jobsluder.net (Kirk Job-Sluder)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:10:39 GMT
Subject: Regular Expressions
References: <808f000f.0408270703.27540e26@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <slrnciun71.vc2.kirk@eyegor.jobsluder.net>

On 2004-08-27, Oriana <oriana.falco at thalesesec.com> wrote:
> hi!
>
>   I am trying to do some replacements using regular expressions, but
> I'm not exactly sure how to do it. I need to replace all ocurrences of
>
> /******************************************         OR
> /*
>
> for /**  ....meaning, any / (forward slash) followed by one or more
> asterisks needs to be replaced with /**  ....how would I write a pieco
> of code to do this??  Please help! Thanks in advance...

#first create a regular expression object.
foo = re.compile(r"^/\*+")

#The regular expression here means match any pattern at the start 
#of a line (^) followed by a literal asterisk (\*) repeated one or 
#more times (+).  

#then use the re object to do the substitution magic.  I find the
#syntax for re.sub() to be a bit backwards myself.  It might help to
#think of it as "put the replacement into the line."

newline = foo.sub("/**",line)



>
> Ori


-- 
Kirk Job-Sluder
"The square-jawed homunculi of Tommy Hilfinger ads make every day an
existential holocaust."  --Scary Go Round


From roy at panix.com  Mon Aug  2 11:24:16 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 11:24:16 -0400
Subject: Strange timing data for list.pop()
References: <roy-57B296.13170501082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<cMedndDr79XOyZPcRVn-gA@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <roy-AF83E2.11241502082004@reader1.panix.com>

In article <cMedndDr79XOyZPcRVn-gA at giganews.com>,
 Istvan Albert <ialbert at mailblocks.com> wrote:

> Roy Smith wrote:
> 
> 
> > anybody have any clue what might be causing this behavior?
> 
> Bad experimental setup.

Of course it was a bad experimental setup.  I didn't measure what I set 
out to measure.  But, I did measure something interesting, and I'm 
trying to figure out what it was.


From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 16 23:03:27 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 22:03:27 -0500
Subject: Python secure?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1751.1092678567.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk><ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com><ZKRTc.3710$bJ2.23892@news1.mts.net>	<cforh6$qiv$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk><mailman.1705.1092625838.5135.python-list@python.org><2xXTc.3775$bJ2.24876@news1.mts.net>	<NIydnd-skK0q173cRVn-ow@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1751.1092678567.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <rzeUc.3995$bJ2.26585@news1.mts.net>

Terry Reedy wrote:
> "Peter Hansen" <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message
> news:NIydnd-skK0q173cRVn-ow at powergate.ca...
> 
>>Reid Nichol wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Terry Reedy wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>... compiled C can be terribly insecure relative to
>>>>Python.  C has dangerous functions like strcpy() which, if used with
>>>>external input, can make a program subject to buffer overrun exploits
>>>>that
>>>>can do explosive damage.
>>>
>>>But this doesn't make C an insecure language.  No language is either
>>>secure nor insecure.  It's what the programer does with it that
> 
> matters.
> 
> Yes, and in a later sentence, I said something about smarter programmers
> and code check policies.  Indeed, by the mid-1980s, I knew that giving
> control of copying to the block copied, by copying until the block
> contained a null byte, could be dangerous.  But somewhere around 2000,
> Microsoft shipped product that did exactly that with data taken off the
> Internet.
And because some M$ employee did something sloppy it is an implication 
that C is bad.  Hell, even strncpy can be dangerous.  How many times do 
I have to say the responsibility is the programmers, *not* the language.

And what language is Python programmed in... oh yah, C.  Perhaps people 
shouldn't talk about how poorly secure C and then go off to how secure 
Python is when Python is written in C.  Houses built on sand...

> Especially if a programmer is rewarded for faster code -- which one write
> by copying dangerously -- and pushing the hidden costs off onto customers.
If a programmer wanted to finish a program quickly then then shouldn't 
use C.  If the programmer is required to use C then (s)he is working for 
a bad company that knows nothing of such things and would have produced 
poor software from the beginning because of such silly things.


From martin at v.loewis.de  Tue Aug 17 02:42:34 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:42:34 +0200
Subject: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xf3'
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1775.1092723467.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <4120F820.4000703@fusiondementes.com>
	<mailman.1775.1092723467.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4121A8DA.30802@v.loewis.de>

Martin Slouf wrote:
> the solution seems to be:
> 
> 0. string is not in unicode encoding (assumption)
> 1. before printing out, convert the string to unicode
> 2. when printing, convert to whatever charset you like

There is an alternative, if the print is a debug print:

- print a repr() of the unicode object instead of
   the unicode object itself. This will work on all
   terminals, and show hex escapes of non-ASCII characters.

> 1. why the string is not in unicode can have several reasons -- i guess:
> 	- does ogg stores tags in unicode?
> 	- you have parsed an xml file with encoding attribute set (that
> is what i do)
> 	- etc

Correct.

> 2. "replace" parameter in encode causes non-printable chars to be
> replaced with '?' (you can use "ignore" or strict", see your python
> doc)

Correct.

> 3. the above will work _only_ _if_ the 'str' encoding is "iso-8859-2" --
> a funny thing -- first line of code converts from unknown (but the
> programmer must know it) to unicode and the second one converts it back
> from unicode to unknown (now the programmer tells that secret to python
> :)

No. unicode(text) uses the system default encoding
(sys.getdefaultencoding()) which normally is ASCII.

Printing a Unicode string to a terminal should work fine if the terminal
is properly configured. What that means depends on your operating
system.

> 	* my assumptions are right

Most of them.

> 
> 	* why is that behaviour? -- if you search google you get
> thousands of errors like this -- with no proper solutions i must add

There is a proper solution. Unfortunately, very similar yet different
problems cause the same error message, and each problem has a different
proper solution:

- A Unicode error is raised when trying to combine a Unicode string
   and a byte string, if the byte string contains non-ASCII characters,
   e.g.

    u"Martin v. " + "L?wis"

   The proper solution is to convert the second string into a Unicode
   object, e.g. through

            unicode("L?wis", "iso-8859-1")

- A unicode error is raised when a Unicode string is printed to
   a terminal. The proper solution is that the system administrator
   or the user should properly administer the locale, so that Python
   knows what characters the terminal can print. For characters that
   are then still non-printable, repr() is the proper solution.

- A unicode error is raised when a library does not support Unicode
   for some reason. The proper solution is to fix the library. A
   proper work-around is to explicitly convert Unicode strings into
   the encoding that the library expects.

> 	* is there an easier portable way (no sitecustomize.py changes)
> to do it

Yes, see above.

> 	* i was looking in site.py and there is deleted the
> sys.setdefaultencoding() function, but from the comments i do
> not know why -- you know it? why is user not allowed to change the
> default encoding? it seems reasonable to me if he/she could do that.

Yes, but that would not be a proper solution. It would mean that your
script now only works on your system, and fails on a system where
the default encoding has not been changed, or has been changed to
something else. Users should use a proper solution instead.

Regards,
Martin


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 30 15:40:41 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 15:40:41 -0400
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <14JYc.8263$6o3.4262@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <mailman.2584.1093824257.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<14JYc.8263$6o3.4262@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <VPSdnRsGq9ImH67cRVn-vg@powergate.ca>

Arthur wrote:
> There is some other syntactical aim here that I wouldn't call "sugar". Once
> again, in the context of "decorators", we might need a new word to express
> what the intention is here.
> 
> If a core argument in favor is to shortcut programmer input, I think it
> should be expressed as an unadorned shortcut.  And think @ expresses the
> intent, in this respect more baldly and clearly.

It looked a whole awful lot to me like the driving force behind
the decorator syntax was not to shortcut programmer input, but
to move the decorator up to a more prominent position than it
occupied with the existing syntax (i.e. after the function,
possibly even after lots of other functions, and thus somewhat
hidden from the reader).

Shortcutting programmer input has, as far as I can tell, never
been a goal of Python syntax except, perhaps, the += form when
applied merely to primitives...

-Peter


From alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 18 17:45:48 2004
From: alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 14:45:48 -0700
Subject: what is wrong with this program?
References: <8f17f4bc.0408171623.4f055fb3@posting.google.com>
	<8VxUc.898$2L3.1@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <8f17f4bc.0408181345.4871eb89@posting.google.com>

Thank you


From sdm7g at datastore.lib.Virginia.EDU  Thu Aug 12 19:33:53 2004
From: sdm7g at datastore.lib.Virginia.EDU (Steven D. Majewski)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:33:53 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: pycore (Python on a Smalltalk VM)
Message-ID: <cfgup1$pbv$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>

via Alan Schiffman's blog via Ted Leung's <http://www.sauria.com/blog> 
via Lisa Dusseault:

http://webpages.charter.net/allanms/2004/08/you-dont-tug-on-supermans-cape.html

L. Peter Deutsch is working on implementing Python on top of the VisualWorks
Smalltalk VM & JIT compiler. 


-- Steve Majewski <sdm7g at Virginia.EDU>



From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Tue Aug 10 16:06:54 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:06:54 -0400
Subject: PEP-0318
References: <41122FC2.1080608@interlink.com.au><mailman.1251.1091764482.5135.python-list@python.org><4114152f@nntp.zianet.com><roy-70A225.19463206082004@reader1.panix.com><411421bf@nntp.zianet.com>
	<mailman.1459.1092154652.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10hianhqvg1qc8d@news.supernews.com>

"Skip Montanaro" <skip at pobox.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1459.1092154652.5135.python-list at python.org...
>
>     >> Do people anticipate having lots of decorators for a given
function?
>
>     Mark> The way they've been talking, it would appear so.
>
> Most of the lots-of-decorator examples were probably designed to make a
> competing decorator proposal look bad. ;-)
>
> In reality, I think the number of functions acquiring decorators will be
> fairly small unless you go whole hog for something like the
> accepts()/returns() example in PEP 318 or do lots of Objective C
interfacing
> as Bob Ippolito expects to do.  In places where decorators will be used, I
> suspect their number will typically be smaller than the number of
parameters
> to the decorated functions.  A quick scan of the standard library:
>
>     find . -name '*.py' \
>     | xargs cat \
>     | egrep '^ *def .*\(.*\):$' \
>     | sed -e 's/.*(//' -e 's/).*//' \
>     | python -c 'import sys
>     for l in sys.stdin:
>       l = l.strip()
>       if not l: print 0
>       else: print len(l.split())
>     ' | sort -n | uniq -c
>
> suggests that most functions have three or fewer parameters:
>
>     1096 0
>     8072 1
>     4024 2
>     1696 3
>      981 4
>      278 5
>       76 6
>       57 7
>        8 8
>       10 9
>        5 10
>        1 11
>        1 13
>
> Even if you account for functions whose parameter lists span multiple
lines
> I doubt that distribution will change very much.
>
> My guess is that use of decorators will be even more heavily weighted
toward
> 0, even after a number of Python releases.

One additional use case for decorators: prototype object systems.
I've been experimenting with Hans Nowak's system, and I am now
quite looking forward to having a single decorator that will bind the
function into an instance. For example:

@instancemethod(myinstance)
def go(self, wordList):
    ---stuff---

The result is that the function gets wrapped by new.instancemethod
and bound into the instance that's bound to myinstance.

For a program that uses this style of objects, just about every
module level function will be decorated.

John Roth
>
> Skip




From indigo at bitglue.com  Tue Aug 17 07:29:46 2004
From: indigo at bitglue.com (Phil Frost)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 07:29:46 -0400
Subject: music resources
In-Reply-To: <CObUc.124363$J06.99175@pd7tw2no>
References: <CObUc.124363$J06.99175@pd7tw2no>
Message-ID: <20040817112946.GA6630@unununium.org>

You might find csound to be useful. It's a very powerful language for
expressing a software synthisizer. It has constructs to create
instruments and to sequence them.

On Mon, Aug 16, 2004 at 11:54:10PM +0000, Elaine Jackson wrote:
> Is there such a thing as an executable language for music? If not, why not? And
> if yes, where can I find it? Naturally the ideal thing would be if such a
> language were implemented within python, but I would be willing to learn a
> lesser programming language if I had a reasonable assurance that it had what I'm
> looking for. I have, of course, googled for a solution, and I may have even
> found it, but if so I didn't recognize it as such. Any pointers will be mucho
> appreciado.
> 
> Peace


From mark at deverter.net  Thu Aug 19 16:07:05 2004
From: mark at deverter.net (md)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:07:05 GMT
Subject: apache 2 & python
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.18.22.42.26.514831@asi.pwr.wroc.pl>
References: <pan.2004.08.18.22.42.26.514831@asi.pwr.wroc.pl>
Message-ID: <JL7Vc.13644$xi6.400@fe2.texas.rr.com>

Krzysztof Drozd wrote:
> how to configure apache 2 to work with python or mod_python?
> 
> 
> 
> krzysiek
> 
> ps: sory,my english is't perfect :)

I use Python for my Apache2 CGI scripts without mod_python (have not 
tried it yet).  Using the cgi module you can POST and GET quite easily 
and it makes for very simple to write dynamic web pages.

First, you will need to add an item to httpd.conf.  In httpd.conf add a 
ScriptAlias for your script name(you should already have one for 
/cgi-bin/ ):

...
ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/ "/usr/local/apache2/cgi-bin"
ScriptAlias /nameScript/ "/usr/local/apache2/cgi-bin/nameScript.py"
...

Then write your script in that location.  The script below would expect 
an http POST or url value like this:

http://www.whatever.com/?nameScript&user_name=Foo

The script below ties it all in....

+------

#!/usr/bin/python
import cgitb; cgitb.enable() #provides HTML error support
import cgi

form = cgi.FieldStorage()

def CGI(content_type="text/html"):
	return 'Content type: %s\n\n' % content_type

def form_val(key):
	"""
	Use this simple method to get http POST's
	"""
	val = form.getlist(key):
	if (val == None): return None
	return val

user_name = form_value('user_name')

def display_page(name):
	print CGI()
	print "<html><head><title>"\
		"This is %s's page</title>"\
		"</head><body><h1>Welcome, %s"\
		"</h1><body></html>" %(name, name)
	return 1	#

display_page(the_name)

----+

There are also other modules you can use to help produce your HTML with 
out typing it out for yourself and thus making it all more Pythonesque.

Hope this wasn't over the top and that it helps.

Mark d.


From jwkenne at attglobal.net  Tue Aug 31 17:36:56 2004
From: jwkenne at attglobal.net (John W. Kennedy)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:36:56 GMT
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
In-Reply-To: <4134a207$0$65568$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<slrncj8m5n.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<%T%Yc.29567$Es2.11957889@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<du7k6vfnvx9.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>
	<4134a207$0$65568$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <Yb6Zc.32434$Es2.12983421@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Craig A. Finseth wrote:
> Wrong.  The / was chosen as the command line option separator because
> whoever wrote MSDOS was looking to CP/M, who modelled their commands
> after a PDP-11 operating system (RT-11?).  Consider the "PIP" command.

> When they went to MS/DOS 2.0 and needed path separators, they found
> that "/" was already taken, so they used "\".  But there was a hidden
> way to tell the command interpreter that it could use "-" for options.

Except, of course, that it was useless, because 99% of programs did 
their own option parsing, and still do.  The hidden option only lasted 
one .1 subrelease, as I recall.

> And in all systems starting with 2.0, the system calls have taken "/"
> and "\" interchangably.

...which is /one/ thing that the FLOSS community can honestly thank them 
for.

-- 
John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract,
Man only earns and pays."
   -- Charles Williams.  "Bors to Elayne:  On the King's Coins"


From rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm  Fri Aug 27 05:26:04 2004
From: rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm (Roel Schroeven)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:26:04 GMT
Subject: How to generically transform a list?
In-Reply-To: <eTBXc.226897$095.11575327@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
References: <opsdcguchn35jo5o@news.gmane.org>
	<mailman.2505.1093589841.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<eTBXc.226897$095.11575327@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
Message-ID: <M6DXc.226964$MK4.11316561@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

Roel Schroeven wrote:

>> Just out of pure curiosity: Is there a langue that allows vertical and 
>> horizontal slicing and dicing with the same built-in pattern?
> 
> 
> You can do it (sorta) in Python: use zip to turn the columns into rows 
> and vice-versa, apply the slicing, than zip back:
> 
>  >>> l = [['a', 1, 11, 'aa'], ['b', 2, 22, 'bb'], ['c', 3, 33, 'cc']]
>  >>> zip(*(zip(*l)[2:0:-1]))
> [(11, 1), (22, 2), (33, 3)]

You end up with a list of tuples instead of a list of lists though.

-- 
"Codito ergo sum"
Roel Schroeven


From nytimes at swiftdsl.com.au  Tue Aug 17 11:28:39 2004
From: nytimes at swiftdsl.com.au (huy)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 01:28:39 +1000
Subject: SockerServer.TCPServer problem
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1803.1092754188.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <4122147e$0$27220$61ce578d@news.syd.swiftdsl.com.au>
	<mailman.1803.1092754188.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <412223af$0$27217$61ce578d@news.syd.swiftdsl.com.au>

Jeremy Jones wrote:

> huy wrote:
> 
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Can someone explain why this bit of code can't keep up with some java 
>> code which spawns about 200 (threads) simultaneous connections each 
>> sending about 10 mesgs each. I basically don't get the 2000 
>> connections i expect on the python side. I end up with some number 
>> very close on different runs eg. 1989, 1972, 1992 etc.
> 
> 
> <snip>
> 
> (Sorry if I post this twice - I'm trying out a new mail client.)
> 
> You may want to try using the ThreadingTCPServer class rather than 
> TCPServer.  Just change this line:
> 
>>    msg_server = SocketServer.TCPServer(("", LISTENING_PORT), PDAHandler)
> 
> 
> 
> to this:
> 
>   msg_server = SocketServer.ThreadingTCPServer(("", LISTENING_PORT), 
> PDAHandler)

Thanks, I'll try that.

> BTW - how are you tracking how many connections you have open with the 
> Python server?  It may be that the process accepts the connection, puts 
> them into a queue to be handled, and waits for the deals with them as it 
> can.  Or is the 2000 the total number of connections that the 200 
> threads produce over the whole run (each making 10 connections)?
> 

every connection creates a file. i count the number of files created.

> Jeremy Jones


From tvlgiao at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  3 09:44:29 2004
From: tvlgiao at yahoo.com (tvlgiao(tm))
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 06:44:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: problem with unicode?
Message-ID: <20040803134429.96407.qmail@web52306.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi,
I have a problem with unicode.
In the Python Shell (Python GUI), i wrote a line:
>>> print u"tr???nh v?? long giao"
 
i want to print an unicode string, but the interpreter printed an error:
Unsupported characters in input
 
does the interpreter not understand unicode chars?

my program has some unicode strings, i can not save it with Python GUI IDE.
does my python have problem?
 
i use Python 2.3.
can anybody help me?
 
thanks
tvlgiao

		
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From MKUMBALE at southernco.com  Fri Aug 27 13:25:12 2004
From: MKUMBALE at southernco.com (Kumbale, Murali T.)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:25:12 -0400
Subject: Help with Fortran output
Message-ID: <430EA1CD6A7724418280E742512F2F9A075ABD@GAXGPEX22.southernco.com>

I am new to Python and redirection etc.  I created a simple COM object
in Visual FORTRAN called "disp.disp" that writes to the WINDOWS console.
I wrote a Python script which looks like the following

import win32com.client
o = win32com.client.Dispatch("disp.disp")
o.SimpeAdd(5)

SimpleAdd method takes the argument supplied (the number 5 in this case)
and adds 10 to it and then writes to FORTRAN standard output using
WRITE(6,...).  This bombs as I don't know how to capture the FORTRAN
output written to WINDOWS console to Python console.  Please help.

Murali


From imbaczek-nospam at poczta.fm.cut-from-here.no-spam.info  Mon Aug  2 08:33:18 2004
From: imbaczek-nospam at poczta.fm.cut-from-here.no-spam.info (Marek =?iso-8859-2?Q?Baczy=F1ski?=)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 14:33:18 +0200
Subject: Sets Module Bug?
References: <cel1dm$o7o$1@scrotar.nss.udel.edu>
Message-ID: <1v4c457rlxrze.dlg@baczek.net.invalid>

Dnia Mon, 02 Aug 2004 05:25:50 -0400, Chris S. napisa?(a):

> How can a Set using a tuple or list be ok, but not a tuple of lists?

Because tuples can't be changed once they're constructed (= immutable.)
You'd get the same error if you tried to do

>>> d = {[1,2]: 'foo'}

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<pyshell#1>", line 1, in -toplevel-
    d = {[1,2]: 'foo'}
TypeError: list objects are unhashable

-- 
Marek Baczy?ski :: UIN 57114871 :: GG 161671 :: JID imbaczek at jabber.gda.pl
He who knows best best knows how little he knows. -- Thomas Jefferson


From brett at python.org  Mon Aug 30 15:02:10 2004
From: brett at python.org (Brett C.)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 12:02:10 -0700
Subject: TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'NoneType' and
	'str'
In-Reply-To: <fckri056s13ol037kqqs1k1aui7c333qiu@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <cgvtji$729@odah37.prod.google.com>

For Bourne-style shells (BASH, ZSH, etc.) ``export CC=gcc`` will do it
for the current shell (won't save it for future use, that requires
setting it in your shell's config file.  For CSH style I think it is
``setenv CC gcc`` but  I am not sure.



From roy at panix.com  Sun Aug 15 21:48:55 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:48:55 -0400
Subject: Python secure?
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<411ffef6$0$65603$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<roy-F5E2AB.20545315082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<41200b23$0$8090$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <roy-367FC1.21485515082004@reader1.panix.com>

Grant Edwards <grante at visi.com> wrote:

> > That being true, it's still a good idea for me to lock the
> > door when I leave the house.
> 
> I suppose so, but it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

The OP was asking if Python offered a way to prevent disclosure of his 
source code.  The statement was made that copyright laws would protect 
him.

My point was not to examine the details of copyright and/or reverse 
engineering laws, but to point out that even if there is legal 
protection for the code, it's still a good idea to take active steps to 
prevent its disclosure.

Protecting the code prevents theft.  IP laws only give you a basis for 
legal action after the code is stolen.


From newgene at bigfoot.com  Mon Aug  2 16:11:13 2004
From: newgene at bigfoot.com (Newgene)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 13:11:13 -0700
Subject: How to clear previous console output?
Message-ID: <cem5jm$pcs@odbk17.prod.google.com>

Hi, group,
May I ask a newbie question?

Given the below example:

for i in range(100):
print "%s%%" % i

I want to show the progress by print 1% to 100%. But I hope  each
output will clear the previous output before print, so that I can see a
dynamic updated display of percentage, instead of print all percentages
one by one. How can I do that(what about on both windows and unix
platform)?

Thank you in advance for your expertise.

Best,

Cl



From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Sat Aug  7 14:39:17 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 20:39:17 +0200
Subject: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was Decorator syntax)
In-Reply-To: <6LWdnZCpvI7Ico_cRVn-hw@giganews.com>
References: <6LWdnZCpvI7Ico_cRVn-hw@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <2nklgpF1ph3dU2@uni-berlin.de>

Istvan Albert wrote:
> Voting for the "list-after-def" syntax as shown above:
> 
> Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com>
> AdSR <artur_spruce at yahoo.com>
> Paul McGuire <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com>m
> Phillip J. Eby pje at telecommunity.com
> C. Barnes <connellybarnes at yahoo.com>
> Aahz aahz at pythoncraft.com
> Skip Montanaro skip at pobox.com
> Bill Janssen janssen at parc.com
> Istvan Albert ialbert at mailblocks.com

+1

Reinhold

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From gh at ghaering.de  Fri Aug  6 14:22:42 2004
From: gh at ghaering.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gerhard_H=E4ring?=)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 20:22:42 +0200
Subject: Obscure bug in pyPgSQL
In-Reply-To: <246a4e07.0408052331.2cdd7e92@posting.google.com>
References: <246a4e07.0408052331.2cdd7e92@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <4113CC72.6090500@ghaering.de>

Frank Millman wrote:
> Hi all
> 
> Below is the text of a message I was about to send in connection with
> an obscure problem. I have now almost got to the bottom of it, and am
> fairly confident that it is a bug in pyPgSQL. I hope this is the
> correct place to report such bugs. If not, please advise the correct
> forum. [...]

Please file a bug on the pyPgSQL bug tracker on Sourceforge. This way, 
it's less likely that this will get lost:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/pypgsql

-- Gerhard


From grante at visi.com  Sat Aug 28 12:36:41 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 16:36:41 GMT
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<tyf3c28ps1t.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
	<1ry8k0d2az.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87acwgvy51.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<2pb36dFibuj3U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<41309d32$0$65611$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<1gj8pg5.1e6z0kiprvfxuN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4130b499$0$62953$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-28, Alex Martelli <aleaxit at yahoo.com> wrote:

>> IMO, the only non-ugly, non-hack solution would be to have
>> another set of delimters that are used as tuple-constructors so
>> tha the syntax for a literal tuple, a literal list, and a
>> literal dictionary are consistent.

[...]

> I think 'commas makes tuples when the commas don't mean anything else'
> should stay, though, because somedict[x, y] or a,b=b,a depend on that,
> and I find them just too sweet to lose!-)
>
> This of course is all pretty hypothetical, just like the idea
> of introducing a new set of delimiters -- won't happen in
> Python, not even in 3.0.  Just musing about some details of
> language design.

Mostly it won't happen because there just aren't enough
delimiters in any common characer set for everything --
especially if you want indexing and function-calling to have
postfix-operator-delimters that are unique from all of the
aroundfix-literal-contsructor-delimiters.

Or something like that.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  I'm a GENIUS! I
                                  at               want to dispute sentence
                               visi.com            structure with SUSAN
                                                   SONTAG!!


From tor.iver.wilhelmsen at broadpark.no  Sat Aug 14 03:57:22 2004
From: tor.iver.wilhelmsen at broadpark.no (Tor Iver Wilhelmsen)
Date: 14 Aug 2004 09:57:22 +0200
Subject: Import command
References: <mailman.1570.1092334906.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <uzn4yup7h.fsf@broadpark.no>

yong at net.tamu.edu (Yong Wang) writes:

> ImportError: ld.so.1: /usr/local/bin/python: fatal: relocation error: file /usr/local/lib/libreadline.so: symbol tputs: referenced symbol not found

This looks like a problem with the version of the native readline
library; that is, it seems to be the Python runtime, independent of
the script run.

Do you get the same error running other Python scripts as well?


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Sat Aug 28 12:42:59 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 18:42:59 +0200
Subject: pep-318 questions
References: <HBF.20040808xui@bombur.uio.no>
	<mailman.1465.1092157434.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040828n0fw@bombur.uio.no>

Sorry with the late reply; when I got back to clp I had the silly idea
that I'd try to catch up with the decorator threads before answering...
Anyway,

Skip Montanaro wrote:

>     Hallvard> The current syntax seems like the clear loser here too: No
>     Hallvard> whitespace above the function name.  Not too bad with a single
>     Hallvard> decorator, but several is a problem. 
> 
> There's no requirement that you smash them all together.  This is valid with
> the current patch:
> 
>     @ a
> 
>     # comment
>     # comment
>     # comment
>     # comment
>     @ b
> 
> 
>     def func(*args, **kwds):
>         ...

Which is even worse because one can easily miss some of the decorators
after locating the function.

>     >> Finally, it would require the introduction of a new keyword.
> 
>     Hallvard> Actually, I'm wondering about that too.  
> 
> Nobody has so far been able to come up with a single keyword that seems to
> connote "this is a decorator function that is to be applied to the next
> function definition".

I thought the main objection to a keyword is that it breaks existing
code; I wasn't talking about _which_ keyword to choose.

My point is that maybe the J2 syntax does _not_ need to be a keyword.

It should work to recognize statements that begin with one word and a
colon, and treat that word as a pseudo-keyword in that statement.  As
far as I can tell, that does not break anything: A valid statement
cannot begin with a non-keyword followed by a colon today.

That also makes 'apply' a candidate for the... pseudo-keyword, if anyone
still wants that one.

And if anyone wanted to, one could make 'else', 'try' and 'finally'
into non-keywords so they could be used as variables:-)

-- 
Hallvard


From alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 18 18:02:36 2004
From: alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 15:02:36 -0700
Subject: what wrong with this program?
References: <8f17f4bc.0408171632.787eb6f8@posting.google.com>
	<cfucf3$est$1@news1.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <8f17f4bc.0408181314.29d2136c@posting.google.com>

Robert Kern <rkern at ucsd.edu> wrote in message news:<cfucf3$est$1 at news1.ucsd.edu>...
> Ali wrote:
> 
> > The following program is supposed to display a dropdown menu, however,
> > it only shows the File and Help things.
> > 
> > from Tkinter import *
> > 
> > root = Tk()
> > 
> > #create menu
> > m = Menu(root)
> > root.config(menu=m)
> > 
> > filemenu = Menu(m)
> > m.add_cascade(label="File", menu="filemenu")
> 
> The menu= argument needs to be the object itself, not a string.
> 
> See, e.g.
> 
> http://www.pythonware.com/library/tkinter/introduction/x5819-patterns.htm

ok I will try it out. Thanks for your help


From eadorio at yahoo.com  Sun Aug  1 07:41:49 2004
From: eadorio at yahoo.com (Ernie)
Date: 1 Aug 2004 04:41:49 -0700
Subject: Quixote demo
References: <5b42ae4.0407301634.2e72a8f8@posting.google.com>
	<5b42ae4.0407311512.b9928f6@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <5b42ae4.0408010341.76555c1@posting.google.com>

Regarding my post below, I rewrote

RewriteRule ^/qdemo(/.*) /var/www/cgi-bin/demo.cgi$1 [last]
as 
RewriteRule ^/qdemo(/.*)  http://%{HTTP-HOST}/cgi-bin/demo.cgi$1
[last]

and it now works, at least on Mozilla and Opera amd in Konqueror
partly. The latter pops up a window to ask me to save or open the page
on some selections, say on "error" and "factorial".

I wonder when the majority of the Python community decide on a
preferred app/web server framework or combine the commonalities of
many rich, powerful and unfortunately fragmented choices: webware,
quixote, spyce, snakelets, webware, zope, twisted, etc?  You don't
have to think or learn more than "one obvious way to do it" in Java or
PHP. When Pythonistas claim Python is indeed better for writing web
apps, what mature Python production quality package will you recommend
instead of Java or Php?

Ernie

eadorio at yahoo.com (Ernie) wrote in message news:<5b42ae4.0407311512.b9928f6 at posting.google.com>...
> Hi,
> 
> Now, this is OT (sorry). Any hints from users of quixote uing Linux
> Mandrake version 9.1 (or greater) Linux distribution  on how to do
> successfully do the indirect running of demo.cgi?  The docs say I have
> to add the line in Apache httpd.conf
>  
>   RewriteRule ^/qdemo(/.*) /www/cgi-bin/demo.cgi$1 [last]
> 
> Unfortunately, there are a lot of confusing places for httpd.conf's in
> my system.
> 
> /usr/share/ADVX/compat/httpd.conf
> /usr/share/ADVX/advx-migrate-commonhttpd.conf
> /usr/share/ADVX/advx-migrate-httpd.conf
> /etc/httpd/conf/commonhttpd.conf
> and also 
> /etc/httpd/conf/httpd2.conf
> /etc/httpd/2.0/conf/httpd2.conf
> /etc/httpd/2.0/conf/commonhttpd.conf
> 
> I picked on, say, /etc/httpd/2.0/conf/httpd2.conf and just appended
> 
> RewriteEngine on
> RewriteRule ^/qdemo(/.*) /var/www/cgi-bin/demo.cgi$1 [last]
> 
> However, the http://localhost/qdemo/ does not work in my browser. I
> have tried the other locations, and still no go.
> 
> TIA for any helps.
> 
> Ernie.


From Florian.Lindner at xgm.de  Sun Aug 29 09:02:00 2004
From: Florian.Lindner at xgm.de (Florian Lindner)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 15:02:00 +0200
Subject: Get all subdirs
Message-ID: <cgsk49$82c$00$1@news.t-online.com>

Hello,
how can I get all subdirectories of a given directory. os.listdir(dir)
doesn't differentiate between directories and files, os.walk seems to me a
bit overkill since it also descends in the subdirs.
Thx,
Florian


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Thu Aug 19 16:27:56 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:27:56 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
References: <20040817181725194-0400@braeburn.themorgue.org>
	<10i9msuatli5p84@news.supernews.com>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-D24476.14010119082004@localhost>
Message-ID: <10ia3aa8j6tbma5@news.supernews.com>

"Michael J. Fromberger" <Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU> wrote
in message news:Michael.J.Fromberger-D24476.14010119082004 at localhost...
> In article <10i9msuatli5p84 at news.supernews.com>,
>  "John Roth" <newsgroups at jhrothjr.com> wrote:
>
> > "Kevin Smith" <Kevin.Smith at sas.com> wrote in message
> > news:20040817181725194-0400 at braeburn.themorgue.org...
> > > For what it's worth, I wrote the original PEP 318.  [...]
> > >
> > > In my opinion, none of the proposed syntaxes really seem Pythonic.
> > > This PEP just seems to be trying to solve too many problems.
> >
> > The arguement is, and always has been, about syntax. Everyone agrees
> > that the current situation is not ideal; putting the wrapping
> > assignment statement after the method is a very poor way of declaring
> > intent.
>
> I agree that the current situation is not ideal.  However, I would also
> argue that many of the proposed replacements are even worse.  Kevin
> Smith's latest proposal (cf. <http://shorl.com/bykaprifitrevi>) is, in
> my view, the most reasonable suggestion so far.
>
> > In other words, forget the use cases.  They're irrelevant.
>
> On this point, I strongly disagree.  If you don't have a use case, there
> is no point whatsoever in arguing about the syntax of a feature.

There is a use case. If you go back and read the original
post I was replying to, it contains the sentence:

[begin quote]
I guess others had bigger plans for my proposal that I had planned.  It
has turned into the "solution" to many problems: type checking (both
arguments and returned values), metaclasses, metadata, interfaces,
function attributes, etc.).
[end quote]

This is the context in which you should have taken my comment
to "forget the use cases." The original use case (classmethod
and staticmethod) is clearly still there, as my comments
in the post you reply to should have made clear.

John Roth
>
> Now, if you want to argue about general syntactic design principles,
> maybe that is an interesting topic -- but it is one level removed from
> what PEP-318 is all about, and therefore (in my opinion) not really
> germane to the present discussion.
>
> -M
>
> -- 
> Michael J. Fromberger             | Lecturer, Dept. of Computer Science
> http://www.dartmouth.edu/~sting/  | Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA




From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Tue Aug 24 14:45:53 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:45:53 -0700
Subject: Dr. Dobb's Python-URL! - weekly Python news and links (Aug 23)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2276.1093335482.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <cgdfku$svs$1@lairds.us>	<mailman.2257.1093319591.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgeprt$s3k$04$1@news.t-online.com>
	<mailman.2276.1093335482.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10in35vb3n72led@corp.supernews.com>

Anthony Baxter wrote:

>[1] I don't count my snarking as a particularly useful form of
>participation - more a combination of trying to keep people honest and
>my normal contrariness.
>  
>

On the contrary, I'd say that your commentary has had a very useful 
effect, even if only by defining a target for those who were interested 
in actually *doing* something as opposed to just complaining.  It's only 
by shifting gears to aim for that target that anything useful (the J2 
implementation and paper) came about.

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From joewong at mango.cc  Tue Aug 24 06:07:57 2004
From: joewong at mango.cc (Joe Wong)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:07:57 +0800
Subject: is this thread safe?
Message-ID: <090f01c489c2$3beb3eb0$7f00a8c0@scl01.siliconcreation.com>

Hi, 

I have a variable that need to be incremented by 1 as follow:

v += 1

Is this threadsafe? Do I need to put a lock around this?

Best regards,

- Joe
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From justin__devine at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 30 14:09:38 2004
From: justin__devine at hotmail.com (Justin)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 11:09:38 -0700
Subject: "Content-Length" header
In-Reply-To: <41336be3$0$8079$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <cgvqh2$gts@odbk17.prod.google.com>

I just figured I narrowed my problem down so I would check if anyone
knew how to request the header I need.



From martin at v.loewis.de  Sat Aug  7 01:03:51 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 07:03:51 +0200
Subject: Further changes to source encodings (Was: PEP 263 status check)
In-Reply-To: <10h8f3md11sou81@news.supernews.com>
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com> <4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de>
	<10h5hgvpafm8a64@news.supernews.com> <41133C76.8040302@v.loewis.de>
	<10h6rklt3fa1690@news.supernews.com> <41137799.70808@v.loewis.de>
	<10h724r20kkeqb2@news.supernews.com> <4113D8DF.8080106@v.loewis.de>
	<10h7tb8nn53ajbb@news.supernews.com> <4114070F.90507@v.loewis.de>
	<10h8f3md11sou81@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <411462b5$0$27020$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

John Roth wrote:
> I don't believe I ever said that PEP 263 said there was
> a difference. If I gave you that impression, I will
> appologize if you can show me where it I did it.

In <10h5hgvpafm8a64 at news.supernews.com>, titled
" PEP 263 status check", you write

[quote]
My specific question there was how the code handles the
combination of UTF-8 as the encoding and a non-ascii
character in an 8-bit string literal. Is this an error?
[end quote]

So I assumed you were all the time talking about how this
is implemented, and how you expected to be implemented,
and I assumed we agree that the implementation should
match the specification in PEP 263.

> As far as I'm concerned, what PEP 263 says is utterly
> irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make.

Then I don't know what the point is you are trying to
make. It appears that you are now saying that Python
does not work the way it should work. IOW, you are
proposing that it be changed, right? This sounds like
another PEP.

> The only connection PEP 263 has to the entire thread
> (at least from my view) is that I wanted to check on
> whether phase 2, as described in the PEP, was
> scheduled for 2.4. I was under the impression it was
> and was puzzled by not seeing it. You said it wouldn't
> be in 2.4. Question answered, no further issue on
> that point (but see below for an additonal puzzlement.)

Ok. A change of subject might have helped.

> 8-bit strings have a builtin assumption that one
> byte equals one character. 

Not at all. Some 8-bit strings don't denote characters
at all, and some 8-bit string, atleast in some regions
of the world, are deliberately using multi-byte character
encodings. In particular, UTF-8 is such an encoding.

> It's a basic assumption
> in the string module, the string methods and all through
> just about everything, and it's something that most
> programmers expect, and IMO have every right
> to expect.

Not at all. Most string methods don't assume anything
about characters. Instead, they assume that the building
block of a byte string is a "byte", and operate on those.
Only some methods of the string objects assume that the
bytes denote characters; they typically assume that the
current locale provides the definition of the character
set.

> Now, people violate this assumption all the time,
> for a number of reasons, including binary data and
> encoded data (including utf-8 encodings)
> but they do so deliberately, knowing what they're
> doing. These particular exceptions don't negate the
> rule.

Not at all. These usages are deliberate, equally-righted
applications of the string type. In Python, the string
type really is meant for binary data (unlike, say, C,
which has issues with NUL bytes).

> The problem I have is that if you use utf-8 as the
> source encoding, you can suddenly drop multi-byte
> characters into an 8-bit string ***BY ACCIDENT***.

Ok.

> (I don't know what happens with far Eastern multi-byte
> encodings.)

The same issues as UTF-8, plus some additional worse issues.

> Now, my suggested solution of this problem was
> to require that 8-bit string literals in source that was
> encoded with UTF-8 be restricted to the 7-bit
> ascii subset.

Ok. I disagree that this is desirable; if you really
want to see that happen, you should write a PEP.

> The second possibility begs the question of what
> encoding to use, which is why I don't seriously
> propose it (although if I understand Hallvard's
> position correctly, that's essentially his proposal.)

No. He proposes your third alternative (ban non-ASCII
characters in byte string literals), not just for UTF-8,
but for all encodings. Not for all files, though, but
only for selected files.

>>If
>>there is no encoding declaration whatsoever, Python will
>>assume that the source is us-ascii.
[...]
> The last sentence puzzles me. In 2.3, absent a declaration
> (and absent a parameter on the interpreter) Python assumes
> that the source is Latin-1, and phase 2 was to change
> this to the 7-bit ascii subset (US-Ascii). That was the
> original question at the start of this thread. I had assumed
> that change was to go into 2.4, your reply made it seem
> that it would go into 2.5 (maybe.) This statement makes
> it seem that it is the current state in 2.3.

With "will assume", I actually meant future tense. Not
being a native speaker, I'm uncertain how to distinguish
this from the conditional form that you apparently understood.

> Specifically, what would the Python 2.2 interpreter
> have done if I handed it a program encoded in utf-8?
> Was that a legitimate encoding? 

Yes, the Python interpeter would have processed it.

print "Gr?? Gott"

would have send the greeting to the terminal.

 > I don't know whether
> it was or not. Clearly it wouldn't have been possible
> before the unicode support in 2.0.

Why do you think so? The above print statement has worked
since Python 1.0 or so. Before PEP 263, Python was unaware
of source encodings, and would literally copy the bytes
from the source code file into the string object - whether
they were latin-1, UTF-8, or some other encoding. The
only requirement was that the encoding needs to be an
ASCII superset, so that Python properly detects the end
of the string.

Regards,
Martin


From ndeskins at ecn.purdue.edu  Tue Aug 17 11:07:42 2004
From: ndeskins at ecn.purdue.edu (Aaron Deskins)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:07:42 -0500
Subject: Newbie question about file input
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408171010590.548-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
References: <cfqj3s$cti$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <cft2f9$ii0$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408171010590.548-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <cft6vv$khm$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>

Christopher T King wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Aaron Deskins wrote:
> 
> 
>>    Also, what exactly is stored when a blank line is read by the
>>readline command? A zero, blank, or what???
> 
> 
> readline() always includes the '\n' that terminates the line, so any 
> 'blank' line that is read will be returned as a simply '\n'.  The only 
> time readline() won't return a line terminated with '\n' is if the last 
> line of the file isn't terminated with '\n' (common on Windows), in which 
> context a blank line is meaningless.
> 
So why does a linesplit fail after the program reads a blank line (or a 
'\n')? Is this simply because there's no way to assign the variable '\n' ?

-- 
Aaron Deskins
Graduate Student
Chemical Engineering
Purdue University


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sun Aug  8 04:24:58 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 18:24:58 +1000
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar, but for what exactly?
In-Reply-To: <YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040808012460896e99@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 20:24:45 -0400, Robert <catcher at linuxmail.org> wrote:
> I have read a few Python blogs and not a one is taking the decorator syntax
> in a good way.

Most of the posts I read seemed to be from people having a visceral
response to the syntax. I think it's fair to say that many of the people
complaining about the syntax have not actually downloaded the alpha
and tried out the new decorators in actual code. 

> The Python of 1.5.2 simplicity will be long gone.

The "Python of 1.5.2 simplicitly" is long, long gone. I don't agree that
newer Python's are somehow worse because new things have been
added. A short list:

  new style classes
  foo(*arg, **kwarg)
  iterators
  generators 
  list comprehensions

In many cases, these new features actually lead to smaller, simpler
code. I challenge _anyone_ to tell me that
  apply(func, args, kwargs) 
is better than 
  func(*args, **kwargs)


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Thu Aug 19 10:16:24 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:16:24 +0200
Subject: speed
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1956.1092923684.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408191528100.1138-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<mailman.1956.1092923684.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408191615210.1138-100000@kleigh.nl>

John Lenton schreef:


> flex has an option to generate code without the gotos...

I have the latest version. I can't find it, not as run time
option, not as build option.



-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug  5 08:41:05 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 08:41:05 -0400
Subject: Decorator syntax
In-Reply-To: <10h46c0l0kol830@corp.supernews.com>
References: <mailman.1173.1091670172.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<38ednYT1NLz1P4zcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
	<10h46c0l0kol830@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <5cKdnSPsIed_t4_cRVn-pg@powergate.ca>

Edward K. Ream wrote:

>>Anyway, check the past discussions before going back around
>>the same arguments yet again.
> 
> And exactly how is one supposed to do this?  I would have thought the pep
> would be the place to start, but pep 318 is actively misleading as to the
> state of the project.

I'm pretty sure it would involve using Google Groups and keywords
such as "decorator syntax", but I haven't personally tried.  I can
provide remedial instruction to those who try the above and
variations on it but who are still unable to find *any* past
discussions of this topic. ;-)

-Peter


From roy at panix.com  Wed Aug 25 08:59:07 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:59:07 -0400
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<m2pt5fmqky.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
	<uK%Wc.213074$gE.193548@pd7tw3no>
Message-ID: <roy-86BB23.08590725082004@reader1.panix.com>

In article <uK%Wc.213074$gE.193548 at pd7tw3no>,
 Martin DeMello <martindemello at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dan Sommers <me at privacy.net> wrote:
>  
> > If list.sort returned the sorted list, how many lists would there be
> > after this code executed?
> > 
> >     original_list = a_function_that_returns_a_list( )
> >     sorted_list = original_list.sort( )
> 
> One - sorted_list would be a reference to the (now sorted) original
> list. The newbie problem could be solved by having <verb> and <verbed>
> versions of each destructive method - i.e. list.sort() to sort the list
> in-place and return it, and list.sorted() to return a new, sorted list,
> and experienced users could chain methods and all that other good stuff.
> 
> martin

The problem with sort() vs. sorted() is that it's obscure.  I'm not a 
big fan of quoting gospel, but it seems to me that it violates the 
gospel of "explicit is better than implicit".

If I took 10 programmers who were generally familiar with typical OO 
syntax, but not specifically with Python and asked them what list.sort() 
and list.sorted() did, I imagine all of them would say something like, 
"Well, they both obviously sort a list, and clearly the existence of two 
different methods means they do it differently somehow, but I can't for 
the life of me guess what the difference is".

Explicit would be something like having two methods named in ways that 
people could figure out without having to RTFM:

list.sort () ==> returns a sorted copy of the list
list.sort_in_place () ==> sorts in place, returns None

or if you prefer to do it the other way:

list.sort () ==> sorts in place, returns None
list.sort_copy () ==> returns a sorted copy of the list

But, personally, I find that all kind of silly; IMHO, list.sort () 
should have just returned self to begin with and then we wouldn't be 
having this discussion.

heretic-ly yours.


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 15 15:44:25 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:44:25 -0400
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <cfobbd$vlb$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
References: <20040814153534.8AC171E4007@bag.python.org>	<D65D4928-EEBF-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>	<mailman.1687.1092584144.5135.python-list@python.org>	<frydnbvSiJeXF4LcRVn-oA@giganews.com>	<mailman.1688.1092591829.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cfobbd$vlb$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
Message-ID: <cfoef7$1qg$1@sea.gmane.org>

Bengt Richter wrote:

> 
> I think I pretty much agree with you (Paul), except that I think the test for
> 'self' (and analogously 'cls') should be a name.startswith(...) test.
> There are a few nested-scope cases where it is necessary to distinguish
> two simultaneous and distinct 'self'-parameter bindings, and you need distinct
> names to avoid shadowing the outer with the inner. No time to look for the example
> I'm thinking of, but I'm sure you can create one (if Peter Otten doesn't beat you to it ;-)
> 

Ok, I spent 10 minutes thinking about the situation you describe and 
can't come up with anything.  I'd love to see the example you're 
referring to.  I'm even more curious how you would document such a class :-)







From tchur at optushome.com.au  Wed Aug  4 19:43:50 2004
From: tchur at optushome.com.au (Tim Churches)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 09:43:50 +1000
Subject: Finding all time periods for a given interval within a
 daterange
Message-ID: <200408042343.i74NhpL01678@mail015.syd.optusnet.com.au>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/attachments/20040805/9ce2f613/attachment.ksh>

From indigo at bitglue.com  Wed Aug 18 18:51:26 2004
From: indigo at bitglue.com (Phil Frost)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:51:26 -0400
Subject: static class methods and data members
In-Reply-To: <b68d2f19.0408181247.19b434d2@posting.google.com>
References: <b68d2f19.0408181247.19b434d2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <20040818225126.GA14005@unununium.org>

take a look at classmethod and staticmethod with pydoc, in the docs, or
help(). Static data members are done like so:

Class C:
  iAmStatic = 1
  def __init__(self):
    self.iAmNotStatic = 2

Thinking of this in terms of "static" and "automatic" isn't the way to
go, really. That's C's way of doing it, and it's in Java only because
Java is nothing more than C.

Here's how it works: There are classes, and there are instances of those
classes. Each has a namespace. when one does <instance>.name, "name" is
located first in the instance namespace, then in the class namespace.

However, assignment is different. Assignment just looks in the instance
namespace, and if it's not there, it creates it. Thus if one were to do
"self.iAmStatic" in a method of C, that does not change the value of
iAmStatic for all instances of C. However, one can do "C.iAmStatic"
anywhere, and that will change "iAmStatic" for all instances of C that
do not have 'iAmStatic' bound to something at the instance level.

The best way to understand this is through experimentation in the
interactive interpreter. To make things easier, you can peek inside
python's implementation by doing C.__dict__ or anInstanceOfC.__dict__ to
see the dictionary that represents that namespace.

After you have absorbed this, you will probably see the use of
classmethod, as it's not immediately apparent if you aren't familiar with
Python. Happy hacking!

On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 02:42:19PM -0700, Neil Zanella wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I would like to know whether it is possible to define static class methods
> and data members in Python (similar to the way it can be done in C++ or Java).
> These do not seem to be mentioned in "Learning Python" by Mark Lutz and David
> Ascher. It seems like they are a relatively new feature... It seems to me that
> any truly OO programming language should support these so I'm sure that Python
> is no exception, but how can these be defined/implemented in Python? Currently
> I have Python version 2.3 installed on my system.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Neil


From eric_brunel at despammed.com  Tue Aug 17 03:46:02 2004
From: eric_brunel at despammed.com (Eric Brunel)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:46:02 +0200
Subject: how to display unicode in a Label in Tkinter
References: <8f17f4bc.0408151819.c06a79e@posting.google.com>
	<cfpop0$jlt$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>
	<8f17f4bc.0408161437.2f557935@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfsckk$v2d$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>

Ali wrote:
> Eric Brunel <eric_brunel at despammed.com> wrote in message news:<cfpop0$jlt$1 at news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>...
> 
>>Ali wrote:
>>
>>>I was wondering how one would go about displaying unicode in a Label
>>>object in a Tkinter window. I am trying to display text in another
>>>language. Please help.
>>
>>Just put it in a Unicode string or in a raw string encoded in UTF-8 and you 
>>should be going:
>>
>> >>> from Tkinter import *
>> >>> root = Tk()
>> >>> s = '????: ?a marche!'
>> >>> u = unicode(s, 'iso8859-1')
>> >>> Label(root, text=u).pack()
>>
>>(The code above supposes your default encoding is iso8859-1, a.k.a latin-1; 
>>otherwise, you can do: s = '\xe0\xe9\xe8\xf9: \xe7a marche!')
>>
>>HTH
> 
> 
> So how I write in Arabic?

The general answer would be to use the unicode codes for the various characters 
you use, e.g.:

 >>> from Tkinter import *
 >>> root = Tk()
 >>> Label(root, text=u'\u0646').pack()

If you want to do that, you'll find 
http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode4.0.0/bookmarks.html very useful 
(especially section 8 in your case). But it's quite hard to type characters this 
way...

There must be another simpler way, based on the standard encoding used when 
using Arabic characters. But I don't know this encoding, so I cannot help you 
much here. I also don't know how you can input these characters in a computer 
(especially in a source file, where the character flow is from left to right)

So I can only return the question: how do *you* usually input Arabic characters 
in a source file? Knowing that and the encoding you use, putting Arabic text in 
Tkinter labels won't be difficult at all.

HTH
-- 
- Eric Brunel <eric (underscore) brunel (at) despammed (dot) com> -
PragmaDev : Real Time Software Development Tools - http://www.pragmadev.com



From nomail at nomail.nomail  Sun Aug  8 09:25:44 2004
From: nomail at nomail.nomail (Dominic)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 15:25:44 +0200
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
In-Reply-To: <cf4rs6$i3l$1@namru.matavnet.hu>
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu> <cf4ms8$30v$1@news.uni-kl.de>
	<cf4rs6$i3l$1@namru.matavnet.hu>
Message-ID: <cf59f7$ips$1@news.uni-kl.de>

> I've got a faint idea that this "subset" approach greatly contributes to the
> unpopularity of Ada.
Well, this may be true. I do not know.
I have read some papers about the SPARK ADA subset.
It has been chosen so that they can prove
certain properties and be happy with most compilers.
For safety critical or embedded applications ADA
is not too bad. It is probably more often used
in this field than Python.
Maybe this can be changed for better.. ;-)

> And perhaps he might stay healthy longer than that young one who eats each
> and every new nutriment and colourful shiny berries. <wink>
Yes, there is some truth in here.
I knew you were going to write that. ;-)

Nikolaus Wirth must have had such an attitude
when he designed Oberon.
Aesthetically Oberon is a very fine language.
However if you peek into Oberon source
code you will often see that they have
used linked lists and rewritten the
code everywhere. Because they do not
have _generics_ and casting seems not
popular among Oberon programmers.
Purity comes with a price tag.

Nevertheless, I think Python has been
pretty feature complete and I am not
sure if @decorators are good or bad.
The addition of generators though
has helped me a lot.
I'll have to trust the Python
language designers since
nobody seems to have actual data
to support or discard @decorators.
As far as I know they are part
of C# and Java (recently).
Maybe some experience and data
has been gathered by them.

Ciao,
  Dominic


From jerf at jerf.org  Mon Aug 30 00:32:05 2004
From: jerf at jerf.org (Jeremy Bowers)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 04:32:05 GMT
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <mailman.2591.1093827253.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.30.00.32.10.79899@jerf.org>

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:54:08 +1000, Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy) wrote:

> Igor V. Rafienko wrote:
> 
>> As a side note -- my last employer had absolutely horrible coding
>> conventions. No one liked them (developers and management included).
>> However, everyone had to comply, and despite an occasional nastiness,
>> the bug that you illustrated could not have happened in that
>> environment, because _every_ if was required to have its body within
>> braces.
> 
> In C/C++/Java, that's a sensible coding convention. I won't quibble that
> there may have been other ones in the coding standards that were bad,
> but that specific example is not.

It is a continual surprise to me that the Great Mother of TMTOWIDI
(Perl) actually got this right. 

(In Perl, "if", "for", and friends all *require* braces when used
conventionally. When used as a suffix ("print $x if $iShould;"), it
doesn't, but I don't find that offensive.... partially because I only
rarely use it.)


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Wed Aug 25 09:22:33 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:22:33 GMT
Subject: python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
References: <mailman.2274.1093330945.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <3l3pi0pgmgu0uir1ucnj0rlfo355c6i5cp@4ax.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:50:48 -0700, Brett Cannon
<bac at OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>
>But then Guido decided to make my life difficult by saying that if the 
>community could come up with an agreed-upon alternative syntax to 
>propose to him he would consider ripping out the '@' syntax; decorators 
>have always been experimental and '@' was checked in so people had 
>*something* to play with.  This meant everyone and their mother started 
>to propose both new and old syntaxes for decorators.  This led to a 
>record amount of email on python-dev (at least compared to what we have 
>archives for; back to April 1999).

<SNIP>

>"In the old days, Guido would Pronounce, and we'd all bite our tongues 
>(although not necessarily each his own).  The less time Guido can make 
>for Python, the more important becomes graceful capitulation."  Tim said 
>this and it makes me wish for the old days.  People had *months* to 
>comment on decorators and no one spoke up until something went into the 
>language.  Procrastination is not a virtue when it comes to major 
>language evolution discussions.  What was worse was when the emails 
>started repeating themselves (which was pretty much from the get-go when 
>this exploded).  Seemed like people decided to start talking without 
>doing some research.  Granted the PEP was outdated and the wiki page was 
>not up yet, but this stuff was covered in the Summaries before and you 
>could have just Googled for the previous threads.

Perhaps you could clarify your position a bit.  I think the
"community" understands some fundamental difference between posting to
python-dev and to python-list.  If not Aahz is normally there to
remind them.

Guido's "genius" extends to marketing, IMO.

Having some sense of participation in the fate of Python, even if bit
hullicinatory, is fundamental to the development of its following.  A
clasic form of guerilla marketing.  Considering that the Python
markteing budget in $ is 0, I think it would be a mistake to have the
community believe that their only role is to read the release notes.

>
>Personally, if I was Guido, I would have said that the community had 
>their chance to speak up and they just didn't take it. 

I think you are inadvertently going somewhere dangerous here.  A
significant part of the community finds that their first appropriate
opportunity to comment to be after some initial decision at python-dev
- the Senate.  It then goes to the People. We the rowdy poeple then do
our rowdy thing.

You see the point...

I don't think you want to say to the People, either to crash the
Senate floor, or hold their peace,

Art



From dave at pythonapocrypha.com  Fri Aug 13 15:27:32 2004
From: dave at pythonapocrypha.com (Dave Brueck)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:27:32 -0600
Subject: Why I love python.
In-Reply-To: <slrnchq1c4.am7.npat@gray.efault.net>
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>	<mailman.1583.1092378965.5135.python-list@python.org>	<slrnchpf2s.7ld.npat@gray.efault.net>	<mailman.1614.1092408264.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnchq1c4.am7.npat@gray.efault.net>
Message-ID: <411D1624.5000700@pythonapocrypha.com>

Nick Patavalis wrote:
> On 2004-08-13, Dave Brueck <dave at pythonapocrypha.com> wrote:
>>Nobody is arguing that Python is as fast as C. But being slower does
>>not imply that Python is unsuitable for those tasks. I'd consider
>>your list to be pretty atypical of normal development (how many TCP
>>stacks and relational databases need to get written each year?),
> 
> 
> I also mentioned web-browsers, ray-tracers, circuit-simulators. I
> could add word-processor, spreadsheets, video editing programs, and
> GUI toolkits to the list. Are they still too exotic?

No - but I still don't think they reflect anywhere near a majority of 
the development that goes on.  I'm not at all saying that there aren't 
applications where performance matters, just that (1) it tends to be far 
less common than most people believe/realize (2) when it does matter, it 
usually matters in a very tiny portion of the total code, and (3) rarely 
in today's development do you need to build from scratch everything down 
to the building blocks themselves anyway (so if you're e.g. building a 
web browser, in many cases you won't even be dealing with lowest level 
data anyway - you won't be handling individual pixels but will be 
calling a library somewhere else to render an image for you - and as the 
developer of the web browser, that's just peachy)

IOW, it'd be lovely to have a blazingly fast-as-C Python, but the lack 
of fast-as-C performance is rarely the most important problem in practice.

> To cut the thread
> short, what I mean is that an application that has to do something
> like:
> 
>    for i in range(N):
>        a[i] = b[i] + c[i]
> 
> is bound to be 10 to 100 times slower than the equivalent coded in
> C. Which means that the cost of doing *computation* in Python is
> prohibitively high!

Not necessarily, and that's the point. You're making the assumption that 
  10-100 times slower is too slow. In some cases it most definitely is. 
In many cases it most definitely is not.

> Have you ever seen, say, an AVL-tree
> implementation in production Python code? Probably not. Have you ever
> seen someone implementing some sort of string-lookup algorithm in
> Python (instead of using the build-in dictionaries)? Again no. Is it
> because Python has found the "one-size-fits-all",
> "best-algorithm-ever-devised" solution?

Or is it because in 99% of the cases what is there works good enough, so 
much so that obtaining the difference is not worth the opportunity cost 
of working on something else?

If you have an overabundance of a particular resource, and you can gain 
some advantage in exchange for some of that abundance, it's nearly 
always worth the trade. Such is the case with CPU - for many, many 
programs we have oodles of excess CPU time lying around, so it's a 
worthwhile trade. And that's exactly why everybody would love a faster 
Python but most people aren't willing to invest time working on it.

I welcome any speed boost we see from people working on improving 
performance, but it's just not what's standing between me and most of my 
development goals. Heck, right now I'm writing this message, I've got my 
mail & IM messages going, a couple of code editors open, a virtual PC 
instance running my database and webserver, and I'm building web pages 
off content in the database and saving them to disk. CPU usage is 
hovering around 5%. If I were to increase the speed of all of these 
applications by a factor of 1000 I wouldn't even notice. Add a few 
features to any of them, and I would.

> Or is it because the weight of
> the language itself is such that even a suboptimal algorithm
> implemented in C will never be matched by a python implementation?

Practice has shown that, not only is this not true, but that a lot of 
times working in a higher level language is also worth it because the 
cost of discovering and implementing a better algorithm is cheaper, so 
you could end up with better performance than going to C. Or, you'd 
arrive at plenty-fast-enough sooner.

> No, but the performance difference between C and Assembly was
> *small*.

Over time, yes, but certainly not initially. I still remember how 
appallingly slow my graphics routines were in C - way too much overhead 
- while in assembly they had no problems at all.

> And at some point the C compilers became so good, that you
> couldn't beat them by hand coding something (of considerable length)
> in assembly.

That happened later, at least on PCs. The real transition happened as 
CPU speed grew so much that the difference between e.g. 4.77 MHz and 10 
MHz was boring.

> As for C++, one of its primary design-goals were "zero
> unneeded overhead"; so it *is* possible to write a C++ program that is
> as fast as a C program, if you want to do it.

It was a design goal, but (1) implementations didn't achieve it very 
well initially and (2) in the end it didn't matter that they didn't 
achieve it. More and more people migrated to C++ because the cost of 
doing so (overhead) fell steadily over time - even more quickly than the 
compilers improved.

> and I want to be sure that---by guiding
> the compiler properly---it will produce code that is as efficient as a
> well-written C program, or hand-coded assembly (or at least close to
> that).

Ugh - any time you spend guiding the compiler is time you could have 
spent actually solving a problem. I find it interesting that when 
programming in C we don't use the 'register' compiler hint anymore. Why? 
It's a combination of smarter compilers and faster computers, but either 
way its existence was awful IMO - don't distract the programmer like that.

I *love* it whenever I see that Pystone benchmarks are improving, or 
that any of the various VM implementations are making headway, and I'll 
gladly use them. But at the  same time, I have to admit that they aren't 
solving any problems I encounter on a daily basis.

> For Python to become a "primary" language, there's
> still much work to be done.

Couldn't disagree more. Yes, things like interpreters, compilers, etc. 
could use more maturity and will continue to evolve over time, but even 
_lacking_ those things it's still far enough ahead of other "primary" 
languages to make the _net_ result a huge advantage. With the evolution 
of those things the advantage will just become more pronounced.

>  But some of it has to do with
> ensuring---at the language level---that efficient environments are
> possible. 

Again, I disagree. IMO one of the benefits of higher level languages is 
that they underlying implementation technology takes care of details 
that the developer need not be concerned with.

Overall, every little performance improvement in a Python implementation 
extends the domain in which Python is a good tool for the job, and 
that's great. But AFAICT it's already a terrific fit for a massive chunk 
of real-world development, so much so that increasing its speed by, say, 
a factor of 10 isn't going to even double its domain of usability.

-Dave


From rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm  Thu Aug 26 16:22:48 2004
From: rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm (Roel Schroeven)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:22:48 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <3353cd1e.0408261150.c0c6fc5@posting.google.com>
References: <mailman.2425.1093529537.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<3353cd1e.0408261150.c0c6fc5@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <sErXc.226571$Lx4.11104306@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

Tony Clarke wrote:

> If this carries on, we'll all be a year older , and have to start again...

I've been thinking about writing a small web application that allows 
everyone to enter his/her birthday (and gender perhaps?), so the ages 
are always up-to-date. But alas, I don't have the time to do it. Would 
be nice, though.

-- 
"Codito ergo sum"
Roel Schroeven


From mdione at vialibre.org.ar  Fri Aug 20 18:05:27 2004
From: mdione at vialibre.org.ar (Marcos Dione)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:05:27 -0300
Subject: "Socket" files?
In-Reply-To: <1093035812.83612@jubilee.esoterica.pt>
References: <1093035812.83612@jubilee.esoterica.pt>
Message-ID: <20040820220527.GE31960@martina.fsl.org.ar>


On Fri, Aug 20, 2004 at 09:58:43PM +0100, Paulo da Silva wrote:
> How are those "files" of type "socket", whose name
> begins with "=", created? How can I create them with
> python?

    they don't start w/ =; that's just ls being verbose. try 'ls -1'.

    you can create them with os.mkfifo. see lib doc, section 6.1.4.


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 17 09:45:52 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:45:52 -0400
Subject: How big can a Python program be?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1791.1092748188.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1791.1092748188.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <lPCdnUPk-paMkb_cRVn-pg@powergate.ca>

Ben Last wrote:
> Unless I've misremembered, the Python interpreter executes lines as they're
> entered, whether read from a file or typed in (with the exception that
> blocks of code made up of multiple lines are executed when the last line is
> complete), so in theory, one could feed code to Python indefinitely and it'd
> just keep going.  

You've misremembered.  Python actually *compiles* the code prior
to executing it, turning it into bytecode.  That means there is
definitely a limit on how much code can be handled, based if nothing
else on the memory in your PC.

-Peter


From detlev at die-offenbachs.de  Mon Aug  9 14:20:27 2004
From: detlev at die-offenbachs.de (Detlev Offenbach)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:20:27 +0200
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <urrku1-ko3.ln1@stargate.solsys.priv>

Fred wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I'm currently checking out Python as an alternative to VB.Net
> to moving from VB, but can't find a GUI designer that is as good as
> VB.
> 
> I tried wxDesigner and wxGlade, but neither lets me move the widgets
> around. I also tried Dialogblocks, but it seems to only handle C++ or
> XRC, not Python.
> 
> Is this all there is, or is there a gem I missed?
> 
> Thank you
> Fred.

Give "eric3" a try (http://www.die-offenbachs.de/detlev/eric3.html). It
is a complete Python IDE using Qt-Designer for GUI development and
Qt-Linguist for translating the GUI.

Detlev
-- 
Detlev Offenbach
detlev at die-offenbachs.de


From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Thu Aug 26 19:16:17 2004
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:16:17 -0700
Subject: What GCC version had <stdint.h> defined?
In-Reply-To: <412E55A9.9070400@v.loewis.de>
References: <412e39d1$1@nntp0.pdx.net> <412E55A9.9070400@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <412e70d3$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

Martin v. L?wis wrote:

> Scott David Daniels wrote:
> 
>> Does anyone know which version of GCC introduced stdint.h (and
>> thereby uintptr_t and intptr_t)?  I'd like to get the conditionals
>> right.
> 
> 
> stdint.h is not part of GCC; it is part of libc6. You shouldn't do
> #ifdefs based on version numbers, but instead, you should do checks
> based on the features of the software, like autoconf does.
> 
> Regards,
> Martin

Well, currently pyconfig.h for 2.4 says:
     ...
     #if _MSC_VER != 1200
     #define HAVE_UINTPTR_T 1
     #define HAVE_INTPTR_T 1
     #endif
     ...

which is actually a pretty low bar to get over.

I'd like to change it to something like:
     ...
     #if _MSC_VER > 1200
     #define HAVE_UINTPTR_T 1
     #define HAVE_INTPTR_T 1
     #endif
     ...
     #if GCC_VERSION >= 30100
     #define HAVE_UINTPTR_T 1
     #define HAVE_INTPTR_T 1
     #endif
     ...

which is arguably better even if not good enough.
Is there a better test I can do at compile time?

-Scott David Daniels
Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org


From wweston at att.net  Wed Aug  4 10:54:14 2004
From: wweston at att.net (wes weston)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 14:54:14 GMT
Subject: MySQLdb 'server not initialized'
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1110.1091585607.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1110.1091585607.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <qM6Qc.385070$Gx4.170448@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>

Daniel Baggott wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm seeking assistance in troubleshooting connecting to MySQL (4.0.20)
> using Python (2.3.4) and MySQLdb (1.0.0).  When I attempt to make a
> connection, I get the following exception:
>    _mysql_exceptions.InternalError: (-1, 'server not initialized')
> 
> The database is definitely running as I can connect to it using the
> mysql client.  Also, when I attempt to connect to MySQL from within
> Python, I don't see any messages in the MySQL logs (ie the .log and .err
> files in /usr/local/mysql/data/).
> 
> Does anyone have any advice or suggestions as to how to figure out
> what's going wrong?  Also, if there's a better forum for posting this
> question, please point me in the right direction.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> [baggott2 at goingto baggott2]$ python
> Python 2.3.4 (#1, Jul 26 2004, 15:14:49)
> [GCC 3.2.3 20030502 (Red Hat Linux 3.2.3-34)] on linux2
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
> 
>>>>import MySQLdb
>>>>c =
> 
> MySQLdb.connect(host='localhost',user='gbd',passwd='xxxxxxx',db='zinc')
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
>   File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/site-packages/MySQLdb/__init__.py",
> line 64, in Connect
>     return apply(Connection, args, kwargs)
>   File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/site-packages/MySQLdb/connections.py",
> line 116, in __init__
>     self._make_connection(args, kwargs2)
>   File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/site-packages/MySQLdb/connections.py",
> line 41, in _make_connection
>     apply(super(ConnectionBase, self).__init__, args, kwargs)
> _mysql_exceptions.InternalError: (-1, 'server not initialized')
> 
> 
> 
> [baggott2 at goingto baggott2]$ mysql -h localhost -u gbd -p
> Enter password:
> Welcome to the MySQL monitor.  Commands end with ; or \g.
> Your MySQL connection id is 9 to server version: 4.0.20-standard-log
>  
> Type 'help;' or '\h' for help. Type '\c' to clear the buffer.
>  
> mysql> show databases;
> +----------+
> | Database |
> +----------+
> | zinc     |
> +----------+
> 1 row in set (0.00 sec)
>  
> mysql> Bye
> [baggott2 at goingto baggott2]$
> 
> 
Daniel,
   I have these two additional args in my connect call:
            port=3306,unix_socket="/tmp/mysql.sock"
wes



From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Sun Aug 29 08:31:42 2004
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 05:31:42 -0700
Subject: my first class: Args
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408291234380.1159-100000@kleigh.nl>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408271601530.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<4130cf9d@nntp0.pdx.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408282222370.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<41315680$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408291234380.1159-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <4131ce22$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

Peter Kleiweg wrote:
> Scott David Daniels schreef:
>> > class Args: ...
>> >     def __init__(self,usage=<some text>):
>> > ...
>> >         self._argv = sys.argv[1:]
 >>if __name__ == '__main__':
 >>      <lotsa code>
-->
>>   class Args: ...
>>       def __init__(self, progname, args, usage=<some text>):
>>
>>   def demo(progname, args):
>>       a = Args(progname, args,
>>         'Usage: %(progname)s [-a value] [-b value] [-c] word [file...]')
>>       <lotsa code 'much like' above>
>>
>>if __name__ == '__main__':
>>      demo(sys.argv[0], sys.argv[1:])
 >
 > This goes against the purpose of the class: to take care of as
 > much of the overhead of script writing as possible. So I can
 > simply do this:

^^ By the way, this goes at the top of your module comment -- it
   lets users understand in 3 (or 6 if you add the example) lines.

 >
 >     import args
 >
 >     a = args.Args()
 >     for line in a: ...

I am not saying you are wrong, exactly, but I will explain why I
prefer my style.  In my style, I increase the chance that I can
reuse programs without changing (or even really reading) them.
This allows something else to get "in the way" when you decide
to build another application from some you already have.

For example:

     import sys, app1, app2

     progname = sys.argv[0]
     break = sys.argv.index(1, ';')
     app1.main(progname + 'part1', sys.argv[1 : sep])
     app2.main(progname + 'part2', sys.argv[sep :])


Perhaps a compromise between the two styles would be closer to
your aesthetic, where the call is:

>     a = args.Args(sys.argv)
>     for line in a: ...

More work on combining, but less work on using.  At any rate it has
been fun blathering about style.


--Scott David Daniels
Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org


From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 10:33:25 2004
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 07:33:25 -0700
Subject: Begginers questions on different distributions of py
References: <cgga5m$v1n$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <6f402501.0408250633.ed3a129@posting.google.com>

Python 2.3.4 is a lsight bugfix on previous 2.3 serious distributions.
To the best of my knowledge you won't notice *any* difference in
practise. I've been coding python for over a year and doen quite a lot
with it - and haven't got into anything esoteric enough to be able to
tell the difference between 2.3.2 and 2.3.4 (in any 2.x distribution
the 'interfaces' ought to remain stable - even if bugs are fixed, the
way you use stuff doesn't change. That doesn't apply to the 2.4 alpha
releases of course).

HTH

Regards,


Fuzzy

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 12:33:12 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 02:33:12 +1000
Subject: @decorators
In-Reply-To: <roy-B53A92.08194306082004@reader1.panix.com>
References: <d22692a3.0408052234.7230fd74@posting.google.com>
	<roy-B53A92.08194306082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040806093376fd6b05@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 08:19:43 -0400, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> I just went to read pep-318 in its entirety, and discovered that the
> last modified date is only a few hours ago.  People might want to go
> read the latest version.

Don't get too excited - there's going to be a lot more updates happening
to it still.


From hans at zephyrfalcon.org  Sat Aug 14 13:57:48 2004
From: hans at zephyrfalcon.org (Hans Nowak)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 13:57:48 -0400
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1642.1092459951.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1642.1092459951.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <411E529C.2070808@zephyrfalcon.org>

Chas Emerick wrote:
> I thought I'd finally break my lurker status here by passing along a 
> comment I made in connection with this weblog post 
> <http://zephyrfalcon.org/weblog2/arch_e10_00610.html#e610>, one of many 
> deriding the controversial feature of @decorators.  

This post wasn't deriding decorators; rather, it explains them, and provides 
some examples of how to use them.  I do question their usefulness, but I'm not 
deriding them, nor the "@" syntax.

--
Hans Nowak (hans at zephyrfalcon.org)
http://zephyrfalcon.org/



From cjw at sympatico.ca  Tue Aug 24 14:00:23 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:00:23 -0400
Subject: How does a "script" differ from a "program" or "subroutine"?
In-Reply-To: <lvnmi0tq1phergljf3211g4dtgue93qhqh@4ax.com>
References: <cge1h0$8qd@odbk17.prod.google.com> <2p0v42FfaqerU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<lvnmi0tq1phergljf3211g4dtgue93qhqh@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <PmLWc.19646$DG.738135@news20.bellglobal.com>



Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
[snip]
> 	And to confuse the matter, the old FORTRAN terminology (at
> least, in my old classes) referred to "function subprograms" and
> "subroutine subprograms".
> 
Yes, because the former returned a value, the latter did not.

Colin W.



From davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu  Mon Aug 23 04:36:31 2004
From: davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu (David Pokorny)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 01:36:31 -0700
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408230004350.22879-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>
	<mailman.2175.1093233838.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <q9OdnRDkR-VsMbTcRVn-pw@lmi.net>


"Anthony Baxter" <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2175.1093233838.5135.python-list at python.org...
> On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 00:23:32 +0100 (BST), Michael Sparks
> <zathras at thwackety.com> wrote:
> >      I discovered this after replacing "decorate" with "using" and
> >      rerunning the test suite... Incidentally the syntax also allows
> >      code like this:
> >
> >      using:
> >          staticmethod synchronised memoise deprecated
> >      def: foo(bar):
> >          "This function foos bars all day long"
> >          pass
>
> The pie-decorator syntax was modified shortly after a2 to require
> one decorator per line. I think for readability's sake, this was a good
> call, and would urge you to do this in any new syntax.

There must be some cognitive-visual thingamajig going on here because I find

using:
    staticmethod synchronized memoize
def bar(foo):
    "upends the established order of metasyntactic keywords"
    pass

much more readable than

@staticmethod synchronized memoize
def bar(foo):
    "upends the established order of metasyntactic keywords"
    pass

[I think it has something to do with the traffic jam at the left margin.]
Aesthetically, putting multiple decorators per line allows the eye to scan
in all of them in one fell swoop. In other words, the one-liner

using:
    staticmethod synchronized memoize
def bar(foo):
    "To colon or not to colon? Def is the question."
    pass

is easy on the eye while

using:
    staticmethod
    synchronized
    memoize
def bar(foo):
    "english teachers will call you on putting two colons in one sentence"
    pass

looks like the SUV of decorators ;)

David




From beliavsky at aol.com  Fri Aug  6 15:27:14 2004
From: beliavsky at aol.com (beliavsky at aol.com)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 12:27:14 -0700
Subject: Paul Graham on Python hackers
Message-ID: <3064b51d.0408061127.32536826@posting.google.com>

Paul Graham's recent book "Hackers & Painters" may be interesting
readers for Python programmers. He likes flexible languages like
Python, although Lisp is his favorite. Here is a quote from his book,
also online at http://www.paulgraham.com/gh.html , where he contrasts
Python and Java programmers. He is opinionated :).

"When you decide what infrastructure to use for a project, you're not
just making a technical decision. You're also making a social
decision, and this may be the more important of the two. For example,
if your company wants to write some software, it might seem a prudent
choice to write it in Java. But when you choose a language, you're
also choosing a community. The programmers you'll be able to hire to
work on a Java project won't be as smart as the ones you could get to
work on a project written in Python. [2] And the quality of your
hackers probably matters more than the language you choose. Though,
frankly, the fact that good hackers prefer Python to Java should tell
you something about the relative merits of those languages.

Business types prefer the most popular languages because they view
languages as standards. They don't want to bet the company on Betamax.
The thing about languages, though, is that they're not just standards.
If you have to move bits over a network, by all means use TCP/IP. But
a programming language isn't just a format. A programming language is
a medium of expression."


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Wed Aug  4 21:08:07 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Thu,  5 Aug 2004 11:08:07 +1000
Subject: bsddb
In-Reply-To: <411185C7.2020705@bitglue.com>
References: <41110FDB.9080307@mail.usyd.edu.au> <411185C7.2020705@bitglue.com>
Message-ID: <1091668087.41118877a493a@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

nope no bsddbmodule either.
the pythonce package doesn't seem to have bsddb. What i tried to do was use
the normal windows release of python2.3.4 and copy the bsddb module from
there along with _bsddb.lib and _bsddb.pyd to the python\lib directory on
the pocket pc.

earlier i hadn't copied the _bsddb.pyd and _bsddb.lib files and so it
couldn't find the _bsddb module. when i copied these the error was
Import Error: DLL load failed with error code 193

cheers

--
Ajay Brar,
CS Honours 2004
Smart Internet Technology Research Group


Quoting Phil Frost <indigo at bitglue.com>:

> I'm guessing, but _bsddb is probably in Modules, called something like
> "bsddbmodule". It's common for a module written in Python to have a
> helper module written in C with the same name prefixed by an underscore.
>
> Ajay Brar wrote:
>
> > hi!
> >
> > when i do an import bsddb, it tries do do an import _bsddb
> > i looked around Python23\Lib but couldn't find any _bsddp file....or
> > am i totally on the wrong track.
> > the reason i am asking is, i am trying to port a Python app to a
> > pocket pc and python release for pocket pc does not have bsddb module.
> >
> > thanks
> >
> > cheers
>
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Fri Aug  6 09:54:46 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 06:54:46 -0700
Subject: @decorators
References: <d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1091800879.399791@news.commspeed.net>


"daishi" <google at daishi.fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa at posting.google.com...
> For what it's worth:
>
> As far as I know, the proposed @decorator syntax will be the first
> time that two logical lines of python with the same indentation will
> not be independent of one another. Previously, when looking at:
>

I think the @decorator syntax was invented by Microsoft to sabotage Python,

Tom




From f.geiger at vol.at  Mon Aug 16 09:13:07 2004
From: f.geiger at vol.at (F. GEIGER)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:13:07 +0200
Subject: [py2exe] py2exe and datetime -> No module named datetime
Message-ID: <cfqblu$q8i$1@newshispeed.ch>

py2exe and datetime -> No module named datetime

I've begun to use the stdlib module datetime instead of my home brewn
classes.
Since then a py2exe app doesn't run anymore:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "MainFrame.py", line 26, in ?
  File "Notebook.pyo", line 125, in ?
  File "NotebookPage_Activities.pyo", line 7, in ?
  File "Editors.pyo", line 3, in ?
ImportError: No module named datetime

Strange enough, py2exe seems to have added datetime:

D:\Project\DDG\exTract2>setup.py py2exe -O1 --packages encodings
running py2exe
*** searching for required modules ***
*** parsing results ***
creating python loader for extension 'wx._gdi'
creating python loader for extension 'win32evtlog'
creating python loader for extension 'datetime'
creating python loader for extension 'wx._misc'
creating python loader for extension 'zlib'
creating python loader for extension '_winreg'
creating python loader for extension 'wx._windows'
creating python loader for extension 'wx._html'
creating python loader for extension 'win32api'
creating python loader for extension '_sre'
creating python loader for extension 'select'
creating python loader for extension 'wx._core'
creating python loader for extension '_socket'
creating python loader for extension 'wx._controls'
creating python loader for extension 'unicodedata'
creating python loader for extension 'win32file'
creating python loader for extension 'winsound'
creating python loader for extension '_mysql'
creating python loader for extension '_ssl'
creating python loader for extension 'wx._calendar'
*** finding dlls needed ***
*** create binaries ***
*** byte compile python files ***

<snip/>

byte-compiling
D:\Project\DDG\exTract2\build\bdist.win32\winexe\temp\_mysql.py to
_mysql.pyo
byte-compiling
D:\Project\DDG\exTract2\build\bdist.win32\winexe\temp\_socket.py to
_socket.pyo
byte-compiling D:\Project\DDG\exTract2\build\bdist.win32\winexe\temp\_sre.py
to _sre.pyo
byte-compiling D:\Project\DDG\exTract2\build\bdist.win32\winexe\temp\_ssl.py
to _ssl.pyo
byte-compiling
D:\Project\DDG\exTract2\build\bdist.win32\winexe\temp\_winreg.py to
_winreg.pyo
byte-compiling
D:\Project\DDG\exTract2\build\bdist.win32\winexe\temp\datetime.py to
datetime.pyo
byte-compiling
D:\Project\DDG\exTract2\build\bdist.win32\winexe\temp\select.py to
select.pyo
byte-compiling
D:\Project\DDG\exTract2\build\bdist.win32\winexe\temp\unicodedata.py to
unicodedata.pyo
byte-compiling
D:\Project\DDG\exTract2\build\bdist.win32\winexe\temp\win32api.py to
win32api.pyo
byte-compiling
D:\Project\DDG\exTract2\build\bdist.win32\winexe\temp\win32evtlog.py to
win32evtlog.pyo
byte-compiling
D:\Project\DDG\exTract2\build\bdist.win32\winexe\temp\win32file.py to
win32file.pyo
byte-compiling
D:\Project\DDG\exTract2\build\bdist.win32\winexe\temp\winsound.py to
winsound.pyo
byte-compiling
D:\Project\DDG\exTract2\build\bdist.win32\winexe\temp\wx._calendar.py to
wx\_calendar.pyo
byte-compiling
D:\Project\DDG\exTract2\build\bdist.win32\winexe\temp\wx._controls.py to
wx\_controls.pyo
byte-compiling
D:\Project\DDG\exTract2\build\bdist.win32\winexe\temp\wx._core.py to
wx\_core.pyo
byte-compiling
D:\Project\DDG\exTract2\build\bdist.win32\winexe\temp\wx._gdi.py to
wx\_gdi.pyo
byte-compiling
D:\Project\DDG\exTract2\build\bdist.win32\winexe\temp\wx._html.py to
wx\_html.pyo
byte-compiling
D:\Project\DDG\exTract2\build\bdist.win32\winexe\temp\wx._misc.py to
wx\_misc.pyo
byte-compiling
D:\Project\DDG\exTract2\build\bdist.win32\winexe\temp\wx._windows.py to
wx\_windows.pyo
byte-compiling D:\Project\DDG\exTract2\build\bdist.win32\winexe\temp\zlib.py
to zlib.pyo
removing c:\dokume~1\ddg_fge\lokale~1\temp\tmp1psfqf.py

<snip/>

Has anybody else experienced this?

Python 2.3.4 on WinXP
py2exe 0.5.2

Many thanks in advance and best regards
Franz GEIGER




From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Mon Aug 30 15:53:28 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 21:53:28 +0200
Subject: Size of a remote URL
In-Reply-To: <cgvvs5$c1d@odah37.prod.google.com>
References: <cgvvs5$c1d@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408302152100.1162-100000@kleigh.nl>

Justin schreef:

> Ok so the problem is that my code is not requesting the headers
> properly.  I get back.  Just that.  I don't know what the difference is
> between the IE request and mine
>
> \ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 19:36:20 GMT
> Server: Apache/1.3.27 (Unix)  (Red-Hat/Linux) mod_ssl/2.8.12
> OpenSSL/0.9.6b DAV/
> 1.0.3 PHP/4.3.2 mod_perl/1.26
> Connection: close
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
> My code:
> for y in linklisttype:
> w = urlopen(y)
> z = w.info()
> x = z.getheader("Content-Length")
> file_sizes.append(x)
> Is there a better method for getting headers than urlopen?

This works:

import httplib
conn = httplib.HTTPConnection("www.ecs.soton.ac.uk")
conn.request("HEAD", "/~harnad/Temp/Ariadne-RAE.doc")
r1 = conn.getresponse()
r1.getheader('Content-length')



-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From FBatista at uniFON.com.ar  Fri Aug 20 10:26:29 2004
From: FBatista at uniFON.com.ar (Batista, Facundo)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:26:29 -0300
Subject: Newbie to XML in Python
Message-ID: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C7822@escpl.tcp.com.ar>

[Jens Thiede]

#- XML in Python doesn't seem easy or intuitive. All I need to 
#- do, is to 
#- interpret a small piece of XML in which I store data for the 
#- contents of 
#- an autorun menu. What is the quickest/most effective way to do this?

I used xml.parsers.expat my first time, and it was some orders of magnitude
easier than I thought (and a lot more easier that parse it by hand).

.	Facundo


From Moiz.Golawala at ge.com  Tue Aug 17 14:47:10 2004
From: Moiz.Golawala at ge.com (Golawala, Moiz M (GE Infrastructure))
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:47:10 -0500
Subject: read input file a line as a list in python
Message-ID: <4BF8D93CF6F73F4890EB6ED8009ECE198AFA27@FTWMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com>

You could do this:

fileList = []
file = open("fileName.txt","r")

#read one line at a time into a list
fileList.append(file.readline())

Moiz Golawala
GE Infrastructure, Security
Software Engineer
Enterprise Solutions

T 561 994 5972
F 561 994 6572
E moiz.golawala at ge.com 
www.gesecurity.com

791 Park of Commerce Blvd., Suite 100
Boca Raton, FL, 33487, U.S.A.
GE Security, Inc.


-----Original Message-----
From: python-list-bounces+moiz.golawala=ge.com at python.org
[mailto:python-list-bounces+moiz.golawala=ge.com at python.org]On Behalf Of
Yong Wang
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 2:41 PM
To: python-list at python.org
Subject: read input file a line as a list in python


Hi, All:
    I need to read a input file as soucre to process data. Ideally
if I can read a line from input file as a list (coloumn separate by
white space), reorganize field in a line. Does python has this kind of 
command ? 
   for example, I read a line has:
   "IP  MAC Date..." as a line from input file, How  can I only get MAC ?
    Thanks,

    Yong
 
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From nospam at nowhere.hu  Sat Aug  7 15:08:48 2004
From: nospam at nowhere.hu (Miklós)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 21:08:48 +0200
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
Message-ID: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu>

Ok, seems like we have @decorators. It's a nice tribute to Intercal.  But
I'd prefer #decorators.

We have metaclasses for pleasure brain-melting. We have generators,
new-style classes and old-style classes. Lambdas are wonderful.
We do need real interfaces, not abused classes.  Python still needs to have
inlined functions, macros and templates. Operator overloading is not enough,
one should be able to introduce new ones freely. There's a heavy demand for
terciary comparisons. Why don't we have a 'case' statement and 'do... repeat
()'?
We cannot do without general closures, of course.  Hm, automatic garbage
collection is sometimes fine but explicite memory allocation/deallocation is
really unavoidable for efficient programs.
Wait, pointers are a must! Static typing should have been introduced a long
time ago. You just cannot do without absolute address variables.

Yes, I'm thorougly annoyed with creeping featurism.

Mikl?s





From dd55 at cornell.edu  Tue Aug  3 15:46:19 2004
From: dd55 at cornell.edu (Darren Dale)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 15:46:19 -0400
Subject: executing python programs as if they were on OS path (noob)
In-Reply-To: <EpOdneEAjIQgepLcRVn-sA@powergate.ca>
References: <ceoogb$7lm$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<EpOdneEAjIQgepLcRVn-sA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <ceoq2d$8bh$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>

  >
> At least two options (assuming you're on Linux... you
> didn't specify your OS unfortunately):
> 

I am currently on windows. I didnt think it would matter, sorry I left 
that out.


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Thu Aug 12 15:46:39 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:46:39 GMT
Subject: PEP318
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<20040812090056.00001e31@titan>
	<7ttmh0t8c3cogtbhhnp1ohqu8b51pda461@4ax.com>
	<eppstein-09AC84.10350212082004@news.service.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <f3inh0d3l3uikpd3t914kv05a2fnkvhqvq@4ax.com>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 10:35:02 -0700, David Eppstein
<eppstein at ics.uci.edu> wrote:

>In article <7ttmh0t8c3cogtbhhnp1ohqu8b51pda461 at 4ax.com>,
> Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
>
>> foo=staticmathed(foo).
>> 
>> That is the universal langauge for transformations.  And when we try
>> to explain to anybody what it is that @decorator means, we go back to
>> the pseudo code that is in fact the existing syntax.
>> 
>> I guess I am mystified what it is that is perceived to have been
>> gained ... by moving magic outside the function block to the top of a
>> function in lieu of expressive code outside the function block at the
>> bottom of the function.
>
>Not having to write the function name three times?  If it's just foo, 
>that would be one thing, but have you seen the PyObjC examples?

Does

def __f(something):
    dosomething

the_name_I_really_ant_to_call=transform(__f)

work?

>
>Also, it's not in the Zen of Python, but maybe declarative is better 
>than imperative?

Starting now, I guess. ;)

Art




From therning at gforge.natlab.research.philips.com  Tue Aug 10 07:08:10 2004
From: therning at gforge.natlab.research.philips.com (Magnus Therning)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 11:08:10 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Is there something else but Automake?
Message-ID: <cfaaan$pl3$1@voyager.news.surf.net>

I am currently using Automake to make distributable tar-balls of my
application. Is there something else (hopefully better) that I can use?

I use the following functionality of Automake:

 - Modification of sources at build time for things like paths and
   version numbers.
 - Building an archive suitable for distributing both to people who are
   interested in contributing and to people who are just using it.
 - Installation of the application.

/M

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Magnus Therning                 Philips Research Laboratories Eindhoven
Phone: +31 40 2745179           (OpenPGP: 0x4FBB2C40)

The only way to be truly creative is to never repeat yourself.
     -- Rob Breszny


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Tue Aug 24 15:54:57 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:54:57 -0500
Subject: Printing date a file
References: <mailman.2296.1093373725.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <r6mdnaLDRt2NALbcRVn-oA@comcast.com>

Take a look at time.strftime()

HTH,
Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.

"Kory Wheatley" <wheakorypersonal at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2296.1093373725.5135.python-list at python.org...
> In Python how would you print the date in a file, I
> have a logging program written in python and for each
> new recorded added to the file, I would like to print
> the
> date, something like this below:
>
> 08/24/2004 or 08-24-2004
>
> --
> Kory Wheatley
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail




From michele.simionato at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 09:46:44 2004
From: michele.simionato at gmail.com (Michele Simionato)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 06:46:44 -0700
Subject: The winner of the Python Decorator Poll is...
References: <Ue-dnX0CBNhaEYfcRVn-ig@comcast.com>	<mailman.1533.1092259988.5135.python-list@python.org>	<4edc17eb.0408112052.1bbd85b3@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1549.1092288204.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4edc17eb.0408120546.7bbc799b@posting.google.com>

Andrew Durdin <adurdin at gmail.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1549.1092288204.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> On 11 Aug 2004 21:52:03 -0700, Michele Simionato
> <michele.simionato at gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Indeed. Actually I did not vote since I like the current proposal (maybe
> > I would like "|"  more than "@") and I dislike all the alternatives,
> > especially having decorators inside the def.
> 
> Since you like the current proposal, why *didn't* you vote for it (it
> was the first one)?

I didn't care to vote, since I thought it will win in any case, having the
support from Guido.

  Michele Simionato


From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug  9 00:09:18 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 09 Aug 2004 04:09:18 GMT
Subject: how many bytes in an int
References: <9ACRc.1523$bJ2.9739@news1.mts.net>
Message-ID: <4116f8ee$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-09, Reid Nichol <rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com> wrote:

>    I was wondering if I could control how many bytes are in an int and 
> the byte order.  In C/C++ I can use int32 but how do I do this in 
> python?  How can I control byte order?

I suspect you want to use the "struct" module -- but it's a
guess, since you haven't really said what it is you're trying
to accomplish.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  My polyvinyl cowboy
                                  at               wallet was made in Hong
                               visi.com            Kong by Montgomery Clift!


From dan.greenblatt at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 15:36:13 2004
From: dan.greenblatt at gmail.com (Dan Greenblatt)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 12:36:13 -0700
Subject: 'post'ing Tkinter menus on windows.....
Message-ID: <7021e822.0408131136.53a96943@posting.google.com>

I am trying to programmatically manipulate the menus in my
application, for purposes of a tutorial, showing users where things
are in our application's menu interface. My goal is to be able to
programmatically say

   'show the menu cascade: Menu1 Menu2 Menu3 Action'

and these menus will post as they would if they were being scrolled
over by the mouse.

I've got this working on *nix platforms, but cannot get it to work on
windows because the menu.post() function doesnt return until you click
somewhere else in the app, while on *nix platforms, that method
returns immediately...
Does anyone have any suggestions as to what i would have to do to get
this to work, as far as messing with grab/focus/etc... ?

Thanks
Dan


From mwh at python.net  Wed Aug 25 13:23:51 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:23:51 GMT
Subject: Capturing exceptions?
References: <pan.2004.08.25.17.12.17.521438@yahoo.com.au>
Message-ID: <m34qmrgmhk.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Dfenestr8 <chrisdewinN0SPAM at yahoo.com.au> writes:

> Hi.
> 
> What's the easiest way to capture the traceback from an exception, and
> write it to a file? Ideally, I'd like to be able to do something like:
> 
> >try:
> >	main()
> >except:
> >	write the traceback to a file

Read up on the traceback module.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
6. Symmetry is a complexity-reducing concept (co-routines include
   subroutines); seek it everywhere.
  -- Alan Perlis, http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/perlis-alan/quotes.html


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Fri Aug 20 10:12:05 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:12:05 GMT
Subject: Decorator keyword options
References: <7knVc.4599$Jn5.3074@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<cg509s$40m$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
	<2CnVc.4606$Jn5.4384@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <VEnVc.4608$Jn5.1003@fe1.texas.rr.com>

"Paul McGuire" <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> wrote in message
news:2CnVc.4606$Jn5.4384 at fe1.texas.rr.com...
> (If you do not see the "EditPage" option at the bottom of the page, select
> the "Preferences" item on the left-side menu and enter your info.  Once
this
> is done, you should be able to edit pages.)

Um, not sure I got that quite right.  UserPreferences instructions can be
found at the top of the Wiki home page,
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/FrontPage.

-- Paul




From John.Marshall at ec.gc.ca  Sat Aug 21 20:17:28 2004
From: John.Marshall at ec.gc.ca (John Marshall)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 00:17:28 +0000
Subject: J2 decorator grammar
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408220102570.23441-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408220102570.23441-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>
Message-ID: <1093133848.15524.16.camel@mango.cmc.ec.gc.ca>

On Sun, 2004-08-22 at 00:20, Michael Sparks wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Robert Brewer wrote:
> ...
> > Did you ever fix the scope issue?
> 
> I've fixed the scoping issue.
> 
> I'll clean up the changes I made to get a minimal patch against 2.4a2, and
> then put it somewhere handy. Now that I've got a much clearer idea of how
> the python source tree hangs together adding in the short form should be
> relatively simple.
> 
> The current patch uses "decorate" as the keyword. Changing that of course
> is utterly trivial - it's also something I think *should* be changed.
> 
> The reason for suggesting this change is for one simple reason - python
> makes often use of the idiom "decorate-dosomething-undecorate" - eg in
> sorting. Using decorate would probably clash heavily with people's code.
> 
> The closest word that strikes me that has a similar meaning to
> decorate, using and applying would be "decorating". If anyone has
> a closer suggestion to a short single word meaning "decorate using",
> it'd be great.
> 

One might consider "deco" in place of "decorate" giving
a deco-def block pair if "decorate" is not desirable but
the something like "decorate" is still appropriate. This
would not be entirely out of place given that def (short
for define) already exists. 

John




From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Aug 14 01:20:42 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 01:20:42 -0400
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com><mailman.1584.1092379077.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ce6aaec0.0408131239.71932ba2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfk7fb$fau$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Michael Scarlett" <bitshadow at yahoo.com> wrote in message
> someone once said python is runable pseudocode.

or 'executable pseudocode' (which I originally misspelled :-( )

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=5if2a8%249r2%241%40news.udel.edu

Terry J. Reedy





From roy at panix.com  Thu Aug 19 21:54:07 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:54:07 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
References: <mailman.1991.1092960665.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-4FE900.21540719082004@reader1.panix.com>

In article <mailman.1991.1092960665.5135.python-list at python.org>,
 "Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy)" <tdelaney at avaya.com> wrote:

> Neil Zanella wrote:
> 
> > Well, allow me to contribute my thoughts on staticmethod and
> > classmethod: 
> > I am barely starting out with Python and my class objects are already
> > loaded with so many
> > 
> > foo = staticmethod(foo)
> 
> These two facts could be somewhat related ... ;)
> 
> Tim Delaney

I never quite understood the point of static methods inside classes.  
When would you ever need to do that, as opposed to just a function in a 
module?  In Java's "everything is part of a class" philosophy, it makes 
sense, but in Python?


From ken.beesley at xrce.xerox.com  Sat Aug 21 15:14:12 2004
From: ken.beesley at xrce.xerox.com (Ken Beesley)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:14:12 +0200
Subject: Question about importing modules
In-Reply-To: <u76fi0l133m45cb37flh4pma2sf44h8l9r@4ax.com>
References: <u76fi0l133m45cb37flh4pma2sf44h8l9r@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <41279F04.30309@xrce.xerox.com>

pythos at bag.python.org wrote:

>Newbie at python (but not programming) here...
>
>I have a program that has "import os" at the top, and then later a call to
>utime() is made.  The python interpreter says "name 'utime' is not defined".
>But if I change "utime(...)" to "os.utime(...)" then it works fine.  Perhaps I
>am expecting the "import os" statement to work the same way as "import
><package_name>.*" does in Java.  So is it the case that if I write "import os"
>in python, then I still need to write "os.utime(...)"?  Or is there something
>else wrong?  Thanks.
>
>  
>
What you want is

from os import utime

which will make 'utime' a name in the local namespace.

Ken



From tmohr at s.netic.de  Sun Aug  1 12:39:19 2004
From: tmohr at s.netic.de (Torsten Mohr)
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 18:39:19 +0200
Subject: Tkinter, Simple Table
Message-ID: <cej6bn$ab0$1@schleim.qwe.de>

Hi everybody,

i'd like to have a small python script that creates a
table (like in Excel) and where i can enter multiline
text in the tables cells.

Can anybody give me a hint where to look?

Does TList do what i want?  THe description looked good,
but i didn't find an example for it.


Regards,
Torsten.



From maxm at mxm.dk  Mon Aug 30 02:57:37 2004
From: maxm at mxm.dk (Max M)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 08:57:37 +0200
Subject: play a midi file from the interpreter?
In-Reply-To: <95tYc.261224$J06.123492@pd7tw2no>
References: <95tYc.261224$J06.123492@pd7tw2no>
Message-ID: <4132CFE1.20004@mxm.dk>

Elaine Jackson wrote:
> (How) can you make it so that a function invoked in the python interpreter can
> run another program? (Like the webbrowser module does, only not with a web
> browser.) If it matters the OS is Windows98 and the specific aim in mind is to
> have a function that saves some data as a midi file and then causes the said
> midi file to play.


Use the popen() call in the os module.

regards Max M


From fakeaddress at nowhere.org  Mon Aug  9 02:33:44 2004
From: fakeaddress at nowhere.org (Bryan Olson)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 06:33:44 GMT
Subject: Encryption between Python & PHP
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1362.1091979458.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1357.1091970037.5135.python-list@python.org>	<m2smaxlq8e.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
	<mailman.1362.1091979458.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cVERc.2625$_j6.542@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>

Geoff Caplan wrote:
 > Looks like I should persist and track down the
 > problem. Perhaps something to do with the keys? When I try to
 > decrypt I am getting binary garbage out instead of an ascii string.
 >
 > Any pointers about where to start looking would be welcome!

First check the obvious: do you have exactly the same
key/IV/ciphertext.

If that's not it, the most popular bug in Blowfish
implementations is an endian dependency.  It causes
implementations to be self-consistent, but ciphertext is not
portable between big-endian and little-endian machines.  Bruce
Schneier's original implementation had the bug, and many others
followed.


-- 
--Bryan


From jack at performancedrivers.com  Wed Aug 18 16:06:34 2004
From: jack at performancedrivers.com (Jack Diederich)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:06:34 -0400
Subject: Embedding Python in Python
In-Reply-To: <cg0bjf$78b$1@fred.mathworks.com>
References: <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
	<7xu0v0l2be.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<cg09ne$ma7$1@fred.mathworks.com>
	<7x3c2kkzn8.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<cg0bjf$78b$1@fred.mathworks.com>
Message-ID: <20040818200634.GY23725@performancedrivers.com>

On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 07:44:47PM +0000, JCM wrote:
> Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at nospam.invalid> wrote:
> > JCM <joshway_without_spam at myway.com> writes:
> >> If you're concerned about security, another possibility is to parse
> >> the user's code and look for anything potentially dangerous.  You'll
> >> need to be aggressive, but I believe it's possible.  For example,
> >> disallow exec statements, the identifier "eval", any identifier of
> >> __this__ form, import statements, etc.  This is overly restrictive,
> >> but it will provide security.
> 
> > By the time you're done with all that, you may as well design a new
> > restricted language and interpret just that.
> 
> > Hint: 
> >   e = vars()['__builtins__'].eval
> >   print e('2+2')
> 
> > Even Java keeps getting new holes found, and Python is not anywhere
> > near Java when it comes to this kind of thing.
> 
> I don't think it's as difficult as you think.  Your snippet of code
> would be rejected by the rules I suggested.  You'd also want to
> prohibit other builtins like compile, execfile, input, reload, vars,
> etc.
> 
foo = "ev" + "al"
e = vars()['__builtins__'].__dict__[foo]
print e('2+2')

This is a job for the operating system and not python.
Google groups for rexec and Bastion if you want to read ten lenghty
discussions of why this is the OS's job.

-Jack


From evenprimes at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 09:20:24 2004
From: evenprimes at gmail.com (Chris Cioffi)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:20:24 -0400
Subject: Why does this (very simple piece of) code does not work?
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.16.13.03.51.421000@hotmail.com>
References: <pan.2004.08.16.13.03.51.421000@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <f03f4fdf040816062018c792d8@mail.gmail.com>

Just a guess here, but is ':' a valid filename character on your OS? 
Most OSes seem to have it reserved for system use.  Try using a
hyphen.

Chris

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:03:51 +0200, jblazi <jblazi at hotmail.com> wrote:
> import os
> 
> L = os.listdir('.')
> 
> for x in L:
>    print '!'+x+'!'+x[0]
>    if x != 'rename.py':
>       y = 'Kapustin (Hamelin): '+x
>       os.rename(x,y)
> 
> I get
> 
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "<stdin>", line 9, in ?
> OSError: [Errno 22] Invalid argument
> 
> TIA,
> 
> jb
> 
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 


-- 
Still searching for an even prime > 2!


From duncan.booth at invalid.invalid  Wed Aug 11 06:56:47 2004
From: duncan.booth at invalid.invalid (Duncan Booth)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 10:56:47 GMT
Subject: class in IronPython?
References: <316f1dc0.0408110240.4c83fb42@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Xns9542798386952duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>

mike1 at tumladen.net (Mike Greaves) wrote in 
news:316f1dc0.0408110240.4c83fb42 at posting.google.com:

> In Jim H.'s new IronPython 0.6:
> 
> mono bin/IronPythonConsole.exe
>>>> class myClass:
> ...   pass
> ...
> System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance
> of an object
> 
> ...
> 
> Am I missing something basic?

I think you will find that classes don't (yet) work in interactive mode. 
Try putting the class in a .py file and using that.



From pinard at iro.umontreal.ca  Sun Aug  1 18:36:17 2004
From: pinard at iro.umontreal.ca (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois?= Pinard)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 18:36:17 -0400
Subject: Module for converting XML to Python object(s)?
In-Reply-To: <otdPc.224$df.27@bignews5.bellsouth.net>
References: <otdPc.224$df.27@bignews5.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <20040801223617.GA11209@titan.progiciels-bpi.ca>

[Robert Oschler]
> Has anybody seen a Python module that will take an XML document (not a
> colossal one), and convert it to a Python nested class object?

You might want to check this announcement:

        From: "Fredrik Lundh" <fredrik at pythonware.com>
        Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:07:43 +0200
        Subject: ANN: ElementTree 1.2 final (june 18, 2004)
        To: python-announce-list at python.org
        Newsgroups: comp.lang.python.announce

        The Element type is a simple but flexible container object,
        designed to store hierarchical data structures, such as
        simplified XML infosets, in memory.  The ElementTree package
        provides a Python implementation of this type, plus code to
        serialize element trees to and from XML files.

        The 1.2 release adds limited support for XPath and XInclude, and
        also fixes a number of serialization bugs, mostly related to
        extensive use of namespaces and unicode in tags and attribute
        names.  For a complete list of changes, see the CHANGES document
        in the source kit.

        You can get the ElementTree toolkit from:

            http://effbot.org/downloads

        Documentation, articles, and some code samples (including an
        XML-RPC unmarshaller in 16 lines) are available from:

            http://effbot.org/zone/element.htm

        enjoy /F

        --
        http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-announce-list

                Support the Python Software Foundation:
                http://www.python.org/psf/donations.html

-- 
Fran?ois Pinard   http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard


From pythos  Mon Aug 23 21:05:15 2004
From: pythos (pythos)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:05:15 -0400
Subject: Help with trapping an exception
Message-ID: <qe3li01voq3qpj67sldp899qi2ufmpdvu9@4ax.com>

I have a piece of code like this:

try:
	some code
except:
	print >> sys.stderr, "error: ", sys.exc_info()


When an exception is thrown from the code, what I see on the console is this:

error: (<class exceptions.NameError at 0x01E7A378>, <exceptions.NameError
instance at 0x09752C50>, <traceback object at 0x096A1408>)

I had a lot of trouble figuring out what was causing the NameError.  I finally
figured it out by removing the "try" and "except" statements so that my code
didn't catch any exceptions.  When I did that, I saw the following on my
console:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "c:\Documents and Settings\xxxxx\rot.PspScript", line 79, in Do
    os.path.walk(baseDirectory, ProcessDirectory, Environment)
  File "c:\Program Files\xxxxxx\Python Libraries\lib\ntpath.py", line 318, in
walk
    func(arg, top, names)
  File "c:\Documents and Settings\xxxxx\rot.PspScript", line 36, in
ProcessDirectory
    App.Do(Environment, 'FileOpen', {
NameError: global name 'Environment' is not defined


Now that was much more helpful.  Once I knew that 'Environment' was not
defined, I easily figured out the problem.  But I need to use "try" and
"except" to catch the exception, otherwise my program will end abruptly
without finishing.  So how can I see the "NameError: global name 'Environment'
is not defined" message in the "except" section of my code?  A call to
sys.exc_info() doesn't show it.  Is there another function I can use?  Thanks.



From indigo at bitglue.com  Wed Aug 18 18:56:08 2004
From: indigo at bitglue.com (Phil Frost)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:56:08 -0400
Subject: introspection?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408181411300.14361-100000@sextans.mesa.lowellnet>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408181411300.14361-100000@sextans.mesa.lowellnet>
Message-ID: <20040818225608.GB14005@unununium.org>

>>> class C:
...  pass
>>> C().__class__.__name__
'C'

That is, __class__ of an instance gives you the class object of which
it's an instance, and __name__ gives you the identifier that represents
the class. Classes also have a __module__ attribute.

On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 02:43:46PM -0700, Jim Benson wrote:
> 
> newbie question here:
> 
> How does one get the class and method name from within
> a method? i.e here i have obviously hardcoded the class 
> and method name:
> 
> class JJTest:
> 
>     def methodA(self):
> 
>         print 'ERROR: in JJTest.methodA'
> 
> >>> from jjtest import JJTest
> >>> jj = JJTest()
> >>> jj.methodA()
> ERROR: in JJTest.methodA
> >>>
> 
> The Java way of doing this would be something like:
> 
> System.out.println("ERROR in: " + this.getClass().getName());
> 
> I suspect that there are attributes that one can use to do 
> something similar in Python. 
> 
> If any of you Python experts would let me know how to do this in
> Python, i would appreciate it.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jim


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 18:55:09 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 22:55:09 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>

Paul Morrow <pm_mon <at> yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> ...that they warrant an entirely new syntax?
[snip]
> So why don't they share a similar syntax?
> 
>     class Foo:
>        """ This is the docstring for class Foo. """
>        __metaclass__ = M
>        # body of class goes here
> 
> 
>     def baz():
>        """ This is the docstring for function baz. """
>        __features__ = synchronized, memoized
>        # body of function goes here.

As I'm sure someone has already mentioned, this has been brought up before.  
I'd especially look at:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/048176.html

That being said, I think the main objection to this syntax is the same 
objection to any inside-def syntax:  The code inside a funcdef block (with the 
exception of docstrings, which Guido has repeatedly said he regrets putting 
there) is executed as part of the /execution/ of the function, not 
the /definition/.

Note a classdef is not really the same in this respect.  The code inside a 
classdef block is executed as part of the /definition/ of the class.  Compare 
what happens when you call Foo() with what happens when you call baz().  With 
the call to Foo(), you don't execute the code in the classdef block; you 
execute the code in __new__ and/or __init__.  With the call to baz(), you /do/ 
execute the code in the funcdef block.

So the basic answer is that decorators are different from metaclasses because 
the code inside the funcdef block is executed when the function is /called/, 
while the code inside the classdef is executed when the class is /declared/.

It may be a subtle difference, but I believe this is what Guido disliked so 
much about the inside-def syntaxes...

Steve



From justin__devine at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 30 15:40:53 2004
From: justin__devine at hotmail.com (Justin)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 12:40:53 -0700
Subject: Size of a remote URL
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408302126220.1162-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <cgvvs5$c1d@odah37.prod.google.com>

Ok so the problem is that my code is not requesting the headers
properly.  I get back.  Just that.  I don't know what the difference is
between the IE request and mine

\ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 19:36:20 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.27 (Unix)  (Red-Hat/Linux) mod_ssl/2.8.12
OpenSSL/0.9.6b DAV/
1.0.3 PHP/4.3.2 mod_perl/1.26
Connection: close
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1


My code:
for y in linklisttype:
w = urlopen(y)
z = w.info()
x = z.getheader("Content-Length")
file_sizes.append(x)
Is there a better method for getting headers than urlopen?



From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Thu Aug 26 21:33:32 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 18:33:32 -0700
Subject: Newbie question on dictionary!!!
References: <494182a9.0408261150.a4c767f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1093571530.107321@news.commspeed.net>


"Balaji" <balaji at email.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:494182a9.0408261150.a4c767f at posting.google.com...
> Hello everybody...
>
> I want to ask a simple question.
>
> Suppose I have an list say g=['a','b','c','d']
>
> and I have an dictionary say k={'b':20,'a':10}
>
> Now I want to sort this dictionary on the basis of the list and if it
> doesnt find any of the element in the list then I wud like to replace
> it with zero..
>
> so I would like to modify k into {'a':10,'b':20,'c':0,'d':0}
>
> I have tried all the built in associated with dict and lists but was
> not able to come up with an solution...
>
> Can anyone help...

Dictionarys are not sortable but you can easaly acess the values in an
sorted order,

dict = {'a':123,'c':456,'b':789}

 l = dict.keys()
 l.sort()
 for i in l:
     print dict[i]

Tom




From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Sun Aug 29 09:38:13 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 06:38:13 -0700
Subject: Dynamic languages
References: <278de0e.0408271349.26762174@posting.google.com>
	<1093650026.763899@news.commspeed.net>
	<98862c6.0408280531.6064d510@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1093787221.707030@news.commspeed.net>


I was actually trying to make a point about semantics in that the terms
'dynamic' and 'static' are too generic. In computer science it is the custom
(but not always) to name a process as accurately as possible and use
acronyms. This way a Dynamically Typed Language becomes DTL and a
Dynamically Run Language becomes DRL, insuring that Python remains superior
in more way than one.

Tom




From martin.clausen at get2net.dk  Thu Aug 26 17:00:03 2004
From: martin.clausen at get2net.dk (Martin)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 21:00:03 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Web Application - User Management - RBAC
References: <mailman.2422.1093527057.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<412dfc53@news.highway1.com.au>
Message-ID: <loom.20040826T225548-944@post.gmane.org>

> 
> Hi Martin
> 
> IYou probably know this already but the obvious response is to use Zope 
> 
> Tim

Yeah, but I am doing this also as an exercise. I want to understand how to put 
RBAC together. Do I really have to start from scratch ? I am not pretending to 
know much about web applications, but I would think there would be a lot of 
generic stuff involved ?

Martin







From jacek.generowicz at cern.ch  Mon Aug 30 03:20:14 2004
From: jacek.generowicz at cern.ch (Jacek Generowicz)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 09:20:14 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<tyf3c28ps1t.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
	<1ry8k0d2az.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <tyfy8jxnlch.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>

Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no> writes:

> "pass" is a no-op,

Can't aruge with that.

> and should only be used when a suite is required, but the suite
> should do nothing. 

I'll have to take your word for it, that this is THE WAY. Oh, wait a
minute ... I don't take people's word for it, and I don't subscribe to
programming dogmas, partuclarly when they get in the way of getting
something useful done. Never mind, then.

> you're proposing a convention saying
>
>    ''if "pass" appears in a suite which also contains other
>      expressions, the "pass" signals the end of the suite''

You had a problem with indent-region in Emacs not doing the right
thing. Your proposed solution is to try to modify the language, in a
way which is guaranteed not to be accepted. I proposed a solution
which (while not one which overwhelms me with its beauty) works today
... to solve the problem _you_ had.

I'm not presupposing any convention, I'm observing the current state
of the world and finding a working solution in it. You are tilting at
windmills.

> that's a hack,

And like so many hacks, IT WORKS.

> and IMHO not worthy of a Python program.

Whereas braces are worthy of a Python program.


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sun Aug  8 04:16:46 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 18:16:46 +1000
Subject: decorators vs GIL
In-Reply-To: <0bidnfbR2_PZOIjcRVn-pA@giganews.com>
References: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>
	<mailman.1345.1091924284.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<8YudnZoJ4NdLEYjcRVn-jA@speakeasy.net>
	<0bidnfbR2_PZOIjcRVn-pA@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040808011667ddee7b@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 00:00:25 -0400, Istvan Albert
<ialbert at mailblocks.com> wrote:
> Just because someone sits down and codes it does not mean it
> should be added to the language. Features are forever, you
> cannot just can't eliminate them in the next version.

The discussion on decorators has been going on for over 2 years
on python-dev. There is a broad concensus that they're a useful
feature, and are not _just_ being added for PyObjC.

As far as "fixing" the GIL - well, no-one on Python-Dev has obviously
found it to be a problem for them. I certainly can't recall a time in the
last 5 years where the GIL has been a problem in any application I've
written (including a number of heavily threaded applications). Coding
threaded applications in Python does require _knowledge_ of the GIL,
true, but there's nearly always ways to get around it.

As a couple of people have said already - if it's truly a problem for you,
you're able to do something about it. Either look into how it could be
fixed, or hell, pay someone else to work on it for you. No-one is going
to work on something merely because you assert that it is important.
Heck, put together a decent case for _why_ it is a problem.

Greg's free-threading patches for Python 1.4 were there for years.
The interest in them was so low that no-one was even interested 
in keeping them up-to-date with current Python (which would have
been a much smaller task than writing them from scratch). 

One final point is that with the various new implementations of 
Python (Jython, IronPython, Python-on-Parrot, Python-on-smalltalk-VM,
Python-on-Scheme-VM) it's quite possible that one or more of 
these new implementations won't have the GIL. You might look into
one of these implementations, and if it looks good to you, contribute!

This is not saying "fix it yourself". This is saying "the people who 
work on Python, in their own spare time (almost no-one is paid
to hack on Python) don't consider that the GIL is an issue for 
them". You can't just say "fix it!" and expect volunteers to do the
work for you.

Anthony


From iketo2 at netscape.net  Mon Aug 30 11:39:34 2004
From: iketo2 at netscape.net (Isaac To)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 23:39:34 +0800
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <mailman.2591.1093827253.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<pan.2004.08.30.00.32.10.79899@jerf.org>
Message-ID: <87d618ocsp.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>

>>>>> "Jeremy" == Jeremy Bowers <jerf at jerf.org> writes:

    Jeremy> (In Perl, "if", "for", and friends all *require* braces
    Jeremy> when used conventionally. When used as a suffix ("print $x
    Jeremy> if $iShould;"), it doesn't, but I don't find that
    Jeremy> offensive.... partially because I only rarely use it.)

Hm... then you lose one of the features that I miss most when coding
Python.  I actually use them much more often than a full if-else when
coding Perl.  In Perl, because you have your freedom to put things in
different ordering, you can easily document your program by simply
reversing the way you write.  By writing "print $x if $x_is_not_bad;"
instead of "if ($x_is_not_bad) { print $x; }" (or, "$x_is_not_bad and
print $x;" or "!$x_is_not_bad or print $x"), you document that (1) you
expect $x_is_not_bad most of the time, and (2) your main concern of
that piece of code is to print out $x rather than to check the
condition.  In Python I got no such freedom.  Anyways, Python is not
designed to be that implicit.

Regards,
Isaac.


From r.kleger at chello.nl  Fri Aug 20 13:48:31 2004
From: r.kleger at chello.nl (Rafal Kleger-Rudomin)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:48:31 GMT
Subject: How to clean python interpreter's environment?
Message-ID: <PPqVc.176$C7.35@amsnews05.chello.com>

Hello,

I'm looking for a command to reset interpreter's environment i.e. unload 
all modules, delete variables etc.

Regards,
Rafal


From fumanchu at amor.org  Mon Aug 23 11:02:07 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 08:02:07 -0700
Subject: J2 paper 0.2.1
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E3C@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Paul McGuire wrote:
> Beautiful work - where do I sign?  (as a supporter, of course)

Not so much "where" as "when". :) If no other subprocess in this thing
goes right, I'd like this one to.


To everyone,

If you support the proposal:

    1. Help refine it if you can. If you have no issues with it, help me
discuss issues other people have with it.

    2. Answer the "call for signatories" when the final draft is ready.
I don't want to add any names prior to that, since the content may
change. I really don't want to chase down everyone each time and
re-secure their support.


If you don't support the proposal:

    1. Let me know. If there is a way to address your concerns to mutual
satisfaction, I will hunt it down, shoot it, stuff it, and hang it over
the mantel. Oh, and put it in the document.

    2. Answer the "call for signatories" when the final draft is ready.
If you still cannot agree to the arguments, add your name to those
against the proposal. Guido deserves an accurate representation of the
opinion of the whole community.


If you consider yourself a "lurker", one who cannot contribute to the
technical discussion, I still want you as a signatory, for or against.
If you favor C1 over both J2 and A1, I still want you as a signatory,
either for or against.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From ayinger at alumni.cmu.edu  Sun Aug 22 16:19:38 2004
From: ayinger at alumni.cmu.edu (Andrew Yinger)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 13:19:38 -0700
Subject: printing a wxIEHtmlWin window
Message-ID: <e69bf82c.0408221219.29abacc3@posting.google.com>

hi, 

python version 2.3, wxpython version 2.4


i know i can right click a wxIEHtmlWin window and select print, but is
there a way to programatically print the contents of a wxIEHtmlWin
window?


thanks,
andrew


From jim_8421 at hotmail.com  Wed Aug  4 16:45:47 2004
From: jim_8421 at hotmail.com (Jim)
Date: 4 Aug 2004 13:45:47 -0700
Subject: logging / FileHandler
Message-ID: <c5694ea3.0408041245.4ada2085@posting.google.com>

Hi,

with the logging module, I am using the FileHandler formatter.
Is there a setting to stop the logger from putting the same message
more than once?  So it would say:

Message whatever
Repeated X times

Thanks


From http  Thu Aug 26 16:53:20 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 13:53:20 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgkeio$spo$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<7xhdqp967k.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<412e3ba4$0$92817$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>
Message-ID: <7xk6vloc3j.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Michael Sparks <zathras at thwackety.com> writes:
> It's very possible that we might end up with @pie syntax or nothing. (I
> suspect the latter is very unlikely, but it's still possible)

I don't have a strong opinion of whether J2 is better than @pie or vice
versa.  I dislike both.

> My personal initial reaction to the syntax was "ugh", followed by listening
> to arguments and deciding that I could live with @pie happily (I do like
> perl after all so I've not got a huge aversion to punctuation). 

My problem with @pie is that it doesn't get enough mileage out of the
@ character.  I'd almost rather use @ as a keyword introducer, like #
in the prepreprocessor.  And of course, @pie should be useable on
classes rather than just functions.  

>    * People will revert to using metaclass approaches, which having
>      tried them I think people will find worse than something more
>      explicit & in your face. (Almost any syntax on the wiki IMO is
>      better than a metaclass approach)

I think decorators can do things that metaclasses can't.

> been used in earnest then IMHO option A1 should be chosen, via a
> __future__ import. Whilst I'm obviously in favour of J2, option A1
> strikes me as by _far_ the simplest to write or provide tools to
> programmatically munge people's code if syntax does change. (Much
> like the tools to remove unnecessary __future__ statements)

I really wouldn't worry too much about the effect on current syntax
tools.  There aren't that many of them, and they do get updated.
Changing Python's syntax will have longer-lasting consequences than
having to update some tools.  


From tblack at biamp.com  Mon Aug  2 15:29:12 2004
From: tblack at biamp.com (Tim Black)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 12:29:12 -0700
Subject: socket.sendall(), non-blocking sockets,
	and multi-threaded socket sending
Message-ID: <b5fef63b.0408021129.6e92cf64@posting.google.com>

My application requires sending a large piece (~2MB) of data to
several devices on a network via TCP sockets. I have experimented with
different methods for doing this and this has raised some questions
about the implementation of Python sockets.

(both methods use blocking sockets)

Method 1: Calls socket.sendall(data) for each device in sequence, all
in a single thread.

Method 2: Each socket has its own thread that calls
socket.send(datachunk) iteratively until all data is sent.

So Method 1 sends all data to device1, then send all data to device2,
etc... until all data is sent to all devices. Method 2 sends chunks of
data to all devices in parallel. What I am seeing is that Method 1 is
faster than Method 2. Given that the bottleneck is the actual sending
of data on the sockets and not some latency in processing the message
at the other end, this result makes sense to me. Method 2 involves
sending the data in smaller chunks, whereas with Method 1 the
chunksize is selected by the TCP/IP stack implementation, which is
probably more efficient. Also, Method 2 entails context switching
between the send threads.

It turns out that using Method 1, all sendall() calls return
immediately. I am assuming at this point that my app is in the hands
of the TCP/IP stack implementation on my machine (win32-XP). Can
anyone explain what happens inside sendall() for Win32?

Also, I would like to get advice and opinions on what is the most
efficient way to broadcast data to several devices on a network.

Thanks,
T


From noone at here.com  Wed Aug 18 23:20:42 2004
From: noone at here.com (M. Clift)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 04:20:42 +0100
Subject: get last two in a length of unknown length?
References: <cg1494$lvr$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<mailman.1922.1092884360.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cg168m$abg$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>

Thankyou all for your help. Exactly what I needed :  )




From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Tue Aug 24 10:51:00 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:51:00 -0400
Subject: python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2280.1093356404.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2274.1093330945.5135.python-list@python.org>	<z_idnSRcLoYq1LbcRVn-jg@giganews.com>
	<mailman.2280.1093356404.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <t6GdnTYtX4VOyLbcRVn-vA@giganews.com>

Anthony Baxter wrote:


> Er. Did you _read_ the rest of the section you quoted?
> 
> """In the end, though, this went in with a warning that the speed
> performance is not portable.  It is not to be used in the stdlib ever.""""

I read the whole thread. It is very clear from it that
the only reason this feature made it in (in whatever form)
is that it has already been committed without Guido's
permission and removing it would have been
quite a bit insulting. If it was up to Guido would
not have made it.

On my part calling it 'an idea that was shot down'
is an exaggeration, but then what does:

 > It is not to be used in the stdlib ever.

mean in this context?

Istvan.



From wilberforce at gmail.com  Sun Aug 29 11:49:36 2004
From: wilberforce at gmail.com (xtian)
Date: 29 Aug 2004 08:49:36 -0700
Subject: os.walk: Get entire path
Message-ID: <cgstug$7po@odah37.prod.google.com>

Florian Lindner wrote:
> Hello,
> when I'm walking through a file system hierarchy using os.walk, how
can I
> get the full path of a file or dir? normpath and abspath don't work.
> Thx,
> Florian

os.walk() is a generator that yields (current directory,
subdirectories, files), and subdirectories and files are lists of
relative names.
(See http://docs.python.org/lib/os-file-dir.html#l2h-1474)

To get the full path of a file or subdirectory while doing a walk, you
can join the name to the current directory (using os.path.join()), and
then use os.path.abspath() on the lot to get the full path (if current
directory is already absolute you don't need that last step).

>>> for d, subs, files in os.walk("."):
print os.path.abspath(os.path.join(d, subs[0]))
break

C:\Python23\BACKUP

On a general note, if you're not sure what something does or the exact
format something is returned in, try playing around with it at the
interactive prompt. If you do:

>>> for item in os.walk("."):
print item
break

...it's pretty easy to see what's going on.

Cheers,
xtian



From chrisks at NOSPAM.udel.edu  Sat Aug 28 22:04:32 2004
From: chrisks at NOSPAM.udel.edu (Chris S.)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 02:04:32 GMT
Subject: Dynamic languages
In-Reply-To: <1093703465.236222@news.commspeed.net>
References: <278de0e.0408271349.26762174@posting.google.com>
	<1093650026.763899@news.commspeed.net>
	<98862c6.0408280531.6064d510@posting.google.com>
	<1093703465.236222@news.commspeed.net>
Message-ID: <QQaYc.2925$wk1.2191@trndny07>

Tom B. wrote:

> "Marcel van den Dungen" <m_vddungen at yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:98862c6.0408280531.6064d510 at posting.google.com...
> 
>>"Tom B." <sbabbitt at commspeed.net> wrote in message
> 
> news:<1093650026.763899 at news.commspeed.net>...
> 
>>>I doubt that this is what they mean but a dynamic language is a language
>>>that is still evolving (Python) as opposed to a dead language (COBOL).
>>>
>>>They probably are referring to programs that can add and remove
> 
> components
> 
>>>during runtime.
>>
>>Dynamic refers to the typing of variables. In Python variables get a
>>type dynamically when assigned a value.
>>See also: http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=4639
>>and several blog posting of Bruce Eckel on this subject:
>>http://www.mindview.net/WebLog/
>>
>>Marcel.
> 
> 
> Those languages are called dynamically typed languages, this implies that
> there is a statically typed language, which there is.
> All languages are dynamic, this slang is bad computer science. There is no
> such thing as a static computer language.

I respectively disagree. The difference between static and dynamic is an 
important one. There are things I can do in Python that are synatically 
impossible in C or C++ simply due to their absence of a native eval().


From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz  Tue Aug 24 00:57:38 2004
From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 16:57:38 +1200
Subject: Overriding logical operators?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2096.1093070022.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2096.1093070022.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2p0064Ff28qtU1@uni-berlin.de>

Robert Brewer wrote:
> This has come up before--in particular, I think Greg Ewing was taking a
> stab at it last.

I have some ideas on how it could be done, although I
haven't gotten around to trying them out yet.

Essentially, there would be two special methods corresponding
to each of these, e.g. '__and1__' and '__and2__' etc. The
first operand would be evaluated and passed to __and1__. If
that can determine the result, it returns it, and evaluation of
the other operand is skipped. If not, it returns a special value
(or maybe raises a special exception) which means "other operand
needed". The second operand is evaluated, and both operands are
passed to __and2__, which returns the final result.

-- 
Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept,
University of Canterbury,	
Christchurch, New Zealand
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg



From pete at shinners.org  Tue Aug 10 01:01:38 2004
From: pete at shinners.org (Pete Shinners)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 22:01:38 -0700
Subject: Mechwarrior Python Game
In-Reply-To: <f4844ba0.0408090918.745ac713@posting.google.com>
References: <f4844ba0.0408090918.745ac713@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cf9kpt$vkn$1@sea.gmane.org>

Jared wrote:
> Has anybody played the Mechwarrior Miniatures game?  I'm trying to
> represent the game in python.  First thing I need to do is make a
> playing field.  Mechs will move on the playing field based on inches
> to scale in any direction.  Any ideas?


You'll probably want to get comfortable working with a game on a hex 
grid. You can usually treat it as a skewed 2D grid. There are plenty of 
articles on developing hex games.

There are a few examples on the Pygame site, but most are either 
incomplete or very deep. I haven't seen any clean examples out there 
that show you how it's all done with Python code. But I know there's a 
few people working on that sort of thing.



From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Fri Aug  6 15:38:35 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:38:35 -0400
Subject: Prothon is switching to the .NET platform
In-Reply-To: <10h7lb21dhbuc12@news.supernews.com>
References: <000401c47b59$32539220$0d01a8c0@MarkVaio> 
	<mailman.1257.1091769173.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061247130.22947-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<10h7lb21dhbuc12@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061533250.25906-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, John Roth wrote:

> I think it's possible to do prototypes within Python by
> overriding the __getattribute__() magic method. It still
> wouldn't be very pretty, but it should be able to do
> everything except override the magic methods (those
> seem to have to be in the class object for new style
> classes).

Hm, I'd never thought of this before; something along the lines of:

 class derive(object):
     def __init__(self,parent):
         self.parent = parent
     def __getattribute__(self,attr):
         return getattr(self.parent,attr)

 myderivedobject = derive(myprototypeobject)

would do the trick quite nicely I guess.  I have one application that 
could benefit quite nicely from prototypes; I'll see if I can't work this 
in.  Thanks for the enlightenment!



From unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom  Sat Aug  7 15:28:02 2004
From: unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom (Michel Claveau - abstraction méta-galactique non triviale en fuite perpétuelle.)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 21:28:02 +0200
Subject: Prothon is switching to the .NET platform
References: <000401c47b59$32539220$0d01a8c0@MarkVaio>
	<mailman.1257.1091769173.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cf0e9e$lgs$2@news-reader3.wanadoo.fr>
	<30260531.0408070142.7e87a655@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cf3agn$h4s$1@news-reader3.wanadoo.fr>

Hi !

Sure ; but IronPython is only a pre-alpha idea.
With IronPython, try  "import string"...

I hope for much IronPython (for to work) ;  I would not like to be
disappointed.

But I would like to play with Prothon # (as with F #, RubyDotNet,
processing #,  etc.)  Dreams ?


@-salutations
-- 
Michel Claveau
m?l : http://cerbermail.com/?6J1TthIa8B
sites : http://mclaveau.com   http://bergoiata.org   http://ponx.org






From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 05:08:15 2004
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 02:08:15 -0700
Subject: ClientCookie
References: <6f402501.0408110018.1e4e5ca8@posting.google.com>
	<87llglqp0l.fsf@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <6f402501.0408120108.5a8f03ae@posting.google.com>

jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee) wrote in message news:<87llglqp0l.fsf at pobox.com>...
> fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord) writes:
> 
> > Has anyone used ClientCookie to store cookies ? 
> > I'm going to play around with 'pickling cookies' - but I wondered if
> > anyone had any experience of this.
> [...]
> 
> There shouldn't be any problem with that.  You can pickle the
> CookieJar itself, or the cookies inside it ([c for c in cookiejar] --
> and use .set_cookie() to get them back into a new CookieJar).
> 

At the moment I can't get at the cookies at *all*. Can you see what
I'm doing wrong.
Here's my code (simplified) :


import ClientCookie
openfun = ClientCookie.urlopen

cj = ClientCookie.CookieJar()
req = ClientCookie.Request(theurl, txdata, txheaders)
u = openfun(req)
info = u.info()

print '<PRE>'        # This is ina CGI after all :-)
print info           # This prints the headers from the server
print
print 'Cookies :'
print cj                
for c in cj:
    print c
print '</PRE>'


Now if I set theurl to 'http://www.google.co.uk' I get the following
response :
(txdata=None, txheaders={ 'User-agent': 'Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE
5.5; Windows NT)' })

<PRE>
Cache-Control: private
Content-Type: text/html
Set-Cookie: PREF=ID=0bac71b03c6b1aa8:LD=en:TM=1092300998:LM=1092300998:S=YasA-Kgirv2NPnd9;
expires=Sun, 17-Jan-2038 19:14:07 GMT; path=/; domain=.google.co.uk
Server: GWS/2.1
Content-Length: 2901
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:56:38 GMT
X-Cache: MISS from dav-serv.tbsmerchants.co.uk
Proxy-Connection: close


Cookies :
<ClientCookie._ClientCookie.CookieJar[]>
</PRE>

And I'm getting this consistently - I can see a cookie in the header,
but it never appears in the CookieJar - so loading and saving the
CookieJar is of no avail.

I'm sure I'm making an obvious mistake - but short of subclassing the
CookieProcessor and doing it all manually (which seems overkill) - I'm
a bit stumped.


> May I suggest instead using cookielib, from Python CVS?  (note that
> POSTs with urllib2 are broken in 2.4a2, so don't use that)
> 
> cookielib is a new module in 2.4, and is a cleaned-up version of the
> cookie-handling parts of ClientCookie.
> 
> 

I'll have a look in a bit... once I can get any kind of response !!

Thanks for your help.

Fuzzy


http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html


> John


From R.Brodie at rl.ac.uk  Mon Aug 16 09:16:21 2004
From: R.Brodie at rl.ac.uk (Richard Brodie)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:16:21 +0100
Subject: Why does this (very simple piece of) code does not work?
References: <pan.2004.08.16.13.03.51.421000@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <cfqc36$o44@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>


"jblazi" <jblazi at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:pan.2004.08.16.13.03.51.421000 at hotmail.com...

>        y = 'Kapustin (Hamelin): '+x
>        os.rename(x,y)
> OSError: [Errno 22] Invalid argument

You didn't say what platform you are on but if it's Windows, then
colons aren't allowed in filenames.




From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 11 14:14:13 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:14:13 -0400
Subject: Rather than decorators, how about sections?
In-Reply-To: <gzsSc.3102$M8.1654@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1509.1092238688.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<gzsSc.3102$M8.1654@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <cfdnlj$9rv$1@sea.gmane.org>

Paul McGuire wrote:
> "Paul Morrow" <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:mailman.1509.1092238688.5135.python-list at python.org...
> 
>>I like many am not wild about the <at> operator.  I also don't think
>>that the decorator syntax should be so directly attached to the method,
>>since what we're trying to do is to say something about the
>>*relationship between* a method and a class (e.g. "method m is a
>>staticmethod of class C").
>>
>>So if we are going to extend the Python grammar to support this sort of
>>thing (which I believe is a good idea), my preference would be to
>>introduce named sections within a class definition, such as...
>>
>>     class Foo(object):
>>         staticmethods:
>>             def baz(a,b):
>>                 print "I'm a static method."
>>             def bez(c,d):
>>                 print "I'm a static method too."
>>
>>         classmethods:
>>             def biz(klass):
>>                 print "I'm a class method."
>>
>>
>>         def __init__(self):
>>             print "We all know what I am."
>>
> 
> This only addresses the "decoration" for declaring static and class methods.
> The decorator mechanism is intended to include much more than this simple
> class declaration feature.  See
> http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/PythonDecoratorLibrary for the first
> application (memoize - a return value cacheing helper/decorator, to optimize
> access to repetitive or compute-intensive function calls, with NO changes
> needed to the function itself).  Other decorator candidates I've seen
> mentioned are:
> - mutex lock/unlock wrapper
> - debugging/logging wrapper
> - pre-condition/post-condition assertion wrappers
> - input argument validation/typing wrapper
> - return value type validation wrapper
> 
> For this degree of flexibility, you can't hard-wire in specific section
> names.
> 
> -- Paul
> 
> 

I agree.  My proposal wasn't looking at the bigger picture here.  But 
see the post by Stepfan Eischet in this thread.  It doesn't address all 
of those issues either, but it does make the bigger problem smaller, by 
using an obvious interpretation of the method arguments to infer the 
type of method (i.e. class -versus- static -versus- instance).  By using 
this simple convention (that most everyone is probably using already), 
that aspect of the annotations require no additional syntax.

Hmmm... did I say 'aspect'?  Maybe instead of cluttering up the code 
with all of these 'declarations' (which is clearly where the decoration 
movement is headed), we should have some sort of companion file that 
contains these annotations, similar to what you see in the AOP languages.



From mwilson at the-wire.com  Fri Aug 20 07:56:21 2004
From: mwilson at the-wire.com (Mel Wilson)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 07:56:21 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
References: <mailman.1829.1092785390.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<65adnQrUKILiC7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1834.1092791633.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<m2vffgd6pu.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
	<mailman.1858.1092832530.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-6AF702.10114718082004@localhost>
	<mailman.1891.1092854353.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-FF646E.17492318082004@localhost>
	<mailman.1909.1092869465.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-F6FD2B.21140718082004@localhost>
	<mailman.1945.1092911723.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-8D423C.10094219082004@localhost>
Message-ID: <lbeJBls/KrlM089yn@the-wire.com>

In article <Michael.J.Fromberger-8D423C.10094219082004 at localhost>,
"Michael J. Fromberger" <Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU> wrote:
>By contrast, the special leading-double-underscore convention for class
>members and the idea to identify instance, static, or class methods
>based on the name of their first parameter, are not even a visibly
>syntactic change.  Each of these ideas specially overloads the single
>most common programming-language operation -- interpretation of a
>variable name -- under particular circumstances.  This technique is (as
>far as I know) nearly unprecedented in other languages, so it would be
>surprising to most programmers.  Furthermore, I think it makes code less
>readable, by hiding important facts inside an implicit assumption about
>the content of non-keyword identifiers, which are otherwise never
>special.

   It relates to Standard C, where the standard divides up
the namespace into names available to the implementation,
and names which a programmer can use without risk of being
clobbered by an implementation.  The distinction is based on
leading underscores and uppercase letters.

   FORTRAN applied a default type of INTEGER to variables
whose names began with I, J, K, L, M or N. Such a move in
Python might make

        i = raw_input ('Number, please: ')

equivalent to

        @raw_input
        @int
        i = 'Number, please: '

(which I don't recommend) or

        i = raw_input ('Number, please: ')
        i = int (i)

>Many people respond to this by saying, "The programmer has to be careful
>anyway, so what is one more thing?"  You could ask the same question
>about drivers and beer.  Little distractions add up to big mistakes.

   Yeah.  At some point in a language's life, it begins to
matter just how many things the programmer has to be careful
about.  Gerald Weinberg has something to say about this in
_The Psychology of Computer Programming_.  The generality vs
raggedness of the distinctions that have to be made matter.
One of Weinberg's examples is in FORTRAN which had tricky
but not essentially difficult rules for which expressions
were and were not allowed in array subscripts.  It was found
that many programmers shied away from using some legal forms,
because it was less trouble to avoid the forms than to
remember where the edge was between legal and illegal.


        Regards.        Mel.


From fumanchu at amor.org  Wed Aug 25 10:44:21 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 07:44:21 -0700
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E6C@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Pierre-Fr?d?ric Caillaud wrote:
> 	I want co-routines too !
> 	There is a web framework (don't remember the name) 
> which models page  
> sequences as continuations. This is terrific. Think about 
> multipage forms,  
> for instance.
> 	I wish Python could do this.

Thinking about Seaside?

http://www.beta4.com/seaside2/


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From cjw at sympatico.ca  Wed Aug 25 22:00:59 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:00:59 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <412cc31c$1@news.012.net.il>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com> <412cc31c$1@news.012.net.il>
Message-ID: <412D445B.1060703@sympatico.ca>



Avner Ben wrote:

> I believe putting the decorator list before the function header is 
> generally a bad design decision. While it may make parsing-related 
> sense, it violates Python's greatest asset: being executable pseudocode. 
> The way I see it, the latter quality means being able to look at the 
> code and see clearly and immediately what requirements from the real 
> world the code was written the serve. Functions and methods are major 
> code entities that are naturally expected to represent discrete 
> functional requirements from the code, to this or that level of detail. 
> I expect to learn from the method name, the class it is in and the list 
> of arguments it takes, everything I need to know about the functional 
> requirement it implements. If that is not enough, I will look at the 
> docstring, if present. Everything else the method has to offer is 
> conveniently hidden below. Decorators of the type discussed recently - 
> with the exception of staticmethod and classmethod - are technical 
> detail of the kind I would like to see hidden below. Putting them on 
> top, prior to the what the method does (its name etc.) compromises the 
> design quality of the code, reducing it to yet another 
> abbreviation-based, self-centered technical scripting language.
> The one esception I saw was J2, which, although putting the decorators 
> before the proper method header, uses indentation to state "this is an 
> extra piece of technicality which you are free to ignore - the def is 
> below."
> 
> My vote: C2, E4, J2
> 
>     Avner.
Your expectation list makes sense to me.  There is merit in having the 
docstring before the 'decorator', i.e. E4

Colin W.



From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 07:41:14 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 07:41:14 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <59e9fd3a04082618327b772ffd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<cghslg$lao$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082600433e025140@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkjm5$3lb$2@sea.gmane.org>	<cgkprj$3lb$5@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826075738a8f6ca@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkur1$ehg$2@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608251b2830d8@mail.gmail.com>	<cgm0nt$epd$2@sea.gmane.org>
	<59e9fd3a04082618327b772ffd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cgn6ko$14o$1@sea.gmane.org>

Andrew Durdin wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:54:22 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>Sure the interpreter uses __getitem__, but you use it too, right?  I
>>mean, you don't need the interpreter to tell you whether instances of
>>the following class can act like a dictionary, do you?
>>
>>    class Foo:
>>       def __getitem__(self, x): pass
>>
>>No you don't.  Nor do you need to pretend that you're the interpreter,
>>and simulate a call to an instance of Foo.  That's because the mere
>>presence of def __getitem__ tells you what you need to know.  In this
>>way, __getitem__ *does* serve as a declaration (of dictionary semantics)
>>[*] to you and anyone reading your code.
> 
> 
> That's because the dictionary interface/protocol requires a
> __getitem__ method; there's no magical/technical reason why it should
> be called __getitem__ rather than, say,  dict_get_item.

Um.  Actually there is a reason why __getitem__ should be named 
something that starts and ends with double underscores.  It's magical. 
By defining that method, instances of your class have special behavior. 
  The *convention* is to surround magic methods with double underscores. 
  So no, dict_get_item would not be a proper substitute name.

> As an example, the iterator protocol requires two methods: __iter__()
> and next() -- the second doesn't have the double underscores

Ok I'll just say it (ban me from the newsgroup if this stings too much). 
  The 'next' method is poorly named.  It doesn't follow conventions for 
magic methods.  It should be fixed.  It should be __next__

> 
>  All the "magic"
> __X__ methods are just those methods required by certain built-in
> interfaces/protocols. And there's syntactic sugar to make them
> convenient. They don't affect the creation of the class at all, as you
> can (if necessary) add them in after the fact:
> 

Of course you can.  In fact, you could do all of your programming that 
way, where you create an empty class, then add the methods and 
attributes after the fact.  Even more fun would be to not even 
explicitly create the class (with a class statement), but instead call a 
function that returns an empty class, and then add your attributes to 
the function result.

But that's not a very effective way to program if you care about program 
maintenance.  As a reader of your code, I'll have a much harder time 
understanding what you're doing than if you adhered to basic conventions 
(like defining all of your methods and attributes inside of a class 
statement).

But my point was that the presence of certain magic methods/attributes 
'says' [*] something to the reader about our code.

Paul

* implicitly 'declares'.



From f.dimmling at remove-this.snafu.de  Tue Aug 31 14:51:28 2004
From: f.dimmling at remove-this.snafu.de (Friedrich Dimmling)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:51:28 +0200
Subject: Newby pango problem
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2600.1093873437.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <2pg9tfFjilreU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<mailman.2600.1093873437.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2pjvlgFlnogfU1@uni-berlin.de>

John Hunter wrote:
> 
> Here is pango_demo.py from my pygtk examples dir.  I wrote this a long
> time ago, so it may not be the best or most modern usage, but it may
> help you along your way
> 

Hi John,

it helped me along my way by pointing to the right section in the PyGtk 
Tutorial. Thanks

Friedrich


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 21:34:27 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:34:27 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <4126982d$0$22032$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>	<mailman.2084.1093045496.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4126982d$0$22032$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <cg68r3$qpf$3@sea.gmane.org>

Christophe Cavalaria wrote:

> Paul Morrow wrote:
> 
> 
>>Note: This is *not* about implicit method typing... :-)
>>
>>Although I haven't seen it discussed anywhere, we already have a
>>decorator syntax (of sorts) that we use to annotate functions and
>>classes.  The " __var__ = " business.  Have we decided that it is
>>woefully insufficient?  I know that there is a preference for the
>>decorators to appear outside of the function def, but putting that
>>aside, this 'style' of decorating already has a precendent in python, so
>>it is probably as pythonic as you can get...
>>
>>     class Foo:
>>         __metaclass__ = M
>>         __automethods__ = True
>>         __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'
>>         __version__ = '0.1'
>>
>>     def baz(a,b,c):
>>         __synchronized__ = True
>>         __accepts__ = (int,int,int)
>>         __returns__ = int
>>         __author__ = 'Fred Flintstone'
>>
>>return a + b + c
>>
>>
>>What is the burning desire to abandon this style?
>>
>>Paul
> 
> 
> By what kind of black magic would setting the property __synchronized__ to
> True would make that function synchronized ? And how can I define my own
> decorators then ?

There would be two kinds of decorators.  Those that are simply 
informative (like __author__ or __version__), and those that have 
side-effects (like __metaclass__, __synchronized__, __automethods__, 
etc.).  Those with side-effects would be implemented as special functions...

     def synchronized(func, trueOrFalse):
         __decorator__ = True
         __author__ = 'Billy Batson'
         __version__ = '0.1'
         #
         # perform the synchronized operation on func...
         #


Here 'func' would be bound to baz (the function being decorated), and 
trueOrFalse would be bound to True (the value assigned to 
__synchronized__ in the definition of baz).

So we could define our own decorator functions and they would get called 
the same way that synchronized does.

     def simpleFunction(a, b, c):
         __myDecorator__ = (73, 'hello', [5,6,7])

         # ...

     def myDecorator(func, a, b, c):
         __decorator__ = True
         print func                  # 1.
         print a                     # 2.
         print b                     # 3.
         print c                     # 4.
         """Footnotes:
             1. prints <function simpleFunction at 0x0092B630>
             2. prints 73
             3. prints 'hello'
             4. prints [5,6,7]
         """


 >
 > And what about the other usage patterns for decorators
 > like the easy property getter/setter definition ?
 >

Sorry, not sure what you mean.  But would the above cover it?

Paul



From grante at visi.com  Sun Aug 15 21:17:23 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 01:17:23 GMT
Subject: Python secure?
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<411ffef6$0$65603$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<roy-F5E2AB.20545315082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <41200b23$0$8090$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-16, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:

>>>> Sorry I should have said I'm new to programming let alone
>>>> Python. I wish to know whether Python is secure as an exe for
>>>> a commercial product.
>>>
>>> Yes.  Anyone who recovers your "code" and/or uses it will be
>>> in violation of copyright
>> 
>> I don't see how decompiling is a copyright violation.  If I
>> buy a copy of a book, I'm pretty sure I can translate it into
>> another language if I want to form my own use.
>
> It is illegal for you to walk in my front door when I'm not home, take 
> my silverware, and leave with it.

True, but I don't see what that has to do with a discussion on
copyright law.  We were not discussing silverware theft, we
were discussing whether decompiling code is a copyright
violation.  I said I don't think it is. I may be wrong, but
anecdotes about getting your silver stolen in NYC don't refute
my claim. Citing the statute or case law regarding decompiling
object code would.

> I am basing this statement on the laws applicable to where I
> live (New York City), but am reasonably sure it's pretty much
> the same in most places.
>
> That being true, it's still a good idea for me to lock the
> door when I leave the house.

I suppose so, but it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  What PROGRAM are
                                  at               they watching?
                               visi.com            


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug  9 07:06:36 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 07:06:36 -0400
Subject: Klingon (was Re: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2)
In-Reply-To: <53449fcb.0408081956.37a73abe@posting.google.com>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>	<opsb9g3hjudgjose@mail.yahoo.it>
	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2-SdnZCwNs1SwI_cRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>
	<53449fcb.0408062138.68a1c196@posting.google.com>
	<RLidnb3avo1EVoncRVn-hA@powergate.ca>
	<53449fcb.0408081956.37a73abe@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <gIOdnc-Ef8sgx4rcRVn-ow@powergate.ca>

Alan Anderson wrote:
> The usual quote is from a 1996 issue of Wired magazine:  "All the
> fluent Klingon speakers can comfortably go out to dinner together." 

That's not the quote I heard, but it's not particularly important
what I actually heard as you have more factual and current info.

> There are no official counts of who speaks Klingon at various levels
> of fluency. The Klingon Language Institute does offer certification
> testing, though not everyone who speaks Klingon has had both the
> desire and opportunity to take such a test. If you're still
> interested, I might be able to find out how many people have passed
> each "rank".

No need to do that.  Counts of those who speak a spoken language,
much as with counts of those who use a given computer language,
have very little meaning.  It's enough to know that you and a
large handful (for the hands of some appropriate alien species ;-)
of others do speak it well.  Thanks for the correction.

-Peter


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Tue Aug 24 16:08:29 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 22:08:29 +0200
Subject: Regular expression guaranteed to fail
References: <yyrjacwqdrlk.fsf@pc156.maths.bris.ac.uk>
	<cg4p0p$6v7$1@news-reader1.wanadoo.fr>
	<HBF.20040822jyb6@bombur.uio.no>
	<96jmi0pt39frp5n3r34afrt21cfeclp0mi@4ax.com>
	<HBF.20040824b8b4@bombur.uio.no>
	<cgfr59$4jg$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040824wb51@bombur.uio.no>

Eric Brunel wrote:
>Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
>> Anyway, I note that r'x\A' beats all the other regexps suggested so far
>> with a factor of 20 when searching 's'*10000.
> 
> And when searching 'x'*10000? Since there is an 'x' in the re, it may change
> things a lot...

Heh.  You are right: That's about almost as slow as the others.  A bit
slower than \Zx and \Ax\A, but still faster than the other alternatives.

-- 
Hallvard


From fredrik at pythonware.com  Wed Aug 11 08:02:34 2004
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:02:34 +0200
Subject: SQL Qeries via XMLRPC
References: <mailman.1423.1092099390.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<3ovlu1-l6f.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
Message-ID: <cfd1sr$kth$1@sea.gmane.org>

Roger Binns wrote:

> The existing standard Python library XML-RPC works
> well, but has the limitation that it doesn't fully
> support HTTP authentication and it uses one connection
> per request.  The authentication issue can be solved
> by making authentication part of your exposed APIs,
> not the underlying XML-RPC transport.
>
> The one connection per request will presumably be
> solved in a future release of the Python library
> and generally is not an issue on a LAN.

the standard transport does this, yes.

it's fairly easy to plug in your own transports (just subclass Transport,
override as necessary, and pass an instance of your custom transport
to the ServerProxy class).

</F>





From justin__devine at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 30 16:28:50 2004
From: justin__devine at hotmail.com (Justin)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 13:28:50 -0700
Subject: "Content-Length" header
In-Reply-To: <WeqdncnNAMD6GK7cRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <ch02m2$31u@odbk17.prod.google.com>

Ok I have now discovered the oddest problem ever.  Check this out it
seems that the same code that works outside of a for loop doesn't work
in one check it out.  Even though the first entry in the list
linklisttype is the same exact URL.


(THIS WORKS)

temp =
urlopen("http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~harnad/Temp/Ariadne-RAE.doc")
print temp
temp2 = temp.info()
print temp2
temp3 = temp2.getheader("Content-Length")
print temp3

(THIS DOESN't)
for y in linklisttype:
x = y
temp = urlopen(x)
print temp
temp2 = temp.info()
print temp2
temp3 = temp2.getheader("Content-Length")
print temp3



From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 02:51:42 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 06:51:42 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: with as J2 keyword (WAS: Re: J2 0-2-6 is available)
References: <mailman.2323.1093399282.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<vNSdnQtkP7x9arbcRVn-vQ@comcast.com>
	<mailman.2335.1093408605.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7xr7pvsp3i.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <loom.20040825T084717-830@post.gmane.org>

Paul Rubin <"http://phr.cx" <at> NOSPAM.invalid> writes:

> 
> Steven Bethard writes:
> > @classmethod
> > @funcattrs(author="Fran??ois Pinard")
> > def foo(cls):
> >     pass
> 
> How about double colon instead of @?
> 
>     ::classmethod
>     ::funcattrs(author="Fran??ois Pinard")
>     def foo(cls):
>         pass


Well, a double colon isn't valid decorator syntax, so it wouldn't be good for 
me to present examples of decorator usage in that form...  Maybe I 
misunderstand you?  Or maybe you're using a quote from me out of context?  I'm 
confused...

Steve



From rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm  Fri Aug 20 03:02:26 2004
From: rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm (Roel Schroeven)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 07:02:26 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <cg3e9e$u8b@odbk17.prod.google.com>
References: <cg3e9e$u8b@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <6mhVc.219633$p67.10887223@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

mensanator at aol.com wrote:
> Roel Schroeven wrote:
> 
>>Only Event Horizon on TV tonight...
> 
> 
> What network?

VT4, a Flemish (Belgian) network.

-- 
"Codito ergo sum"
Roel Schroeven


From raims at dot.com  Sun Aug  1 04:17:28 2004
From: raims at dot.com (Lawrence Oluyede)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 10:17:28 +0200
Subject: Importance of C# (was Re: IronPython-0.6 is now available!)
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.921.1091114694.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<uy8l2g5ln.fsf@broadpark.no>
	<mailman.973.1091207420.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<uzn5gsexl.fsf@broadpark.no>
	<7u5tpvap1oh5.1h1v27kmjvf04$.dlg@40tude.net>
	<uvfg49gmy.fsf@broadpark.no>
	<ad052e5c.0407311630.19e347ba@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <14falq1p3y33s.lnhptj281b9o$.dlg@40tude.net>

In data 31 Jul 2004 17:30:23 -0700, Dan Bishop ha scritto:

> And ironically, there's less of a need for MI (and inheritance in
> general) in Python, because it's dynamically typed.
> 
> I don't think I've ever used MI in Python.

Yeah, me too, I prefer the mixin approach, anyway, if you want to take a
look at a framework (with a wonderful API IMHO) that massively uses MI
watch Soya3D sources: http://home.gna.org/oomadness/en/soya/

-- 
Lawrence (l dot oluyede at virgilio dot it)
"In IE we trust"


From user at domain.invalid  Thu Aug 19 06:29:54 2004
From: user at domain.invalid (Robbie)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:29:54 +1000
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1939.1092908938.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1939.1092908938.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cg1v7q$2ut6$1@otis.netspace.net.au>

I'm 18, discovered Python about 4 years ago, didn't really realise what 
is could do til 2 years ago. Only just got really into it recently. Man 
my english skills are bad, can Python fix those?


From gregor.jan at NOSPAMquick.cz  Wed Aug  4 15:21:57 2004
From: gregor.jan at NOSPAMquick.cz (Jan Gregor)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 21:21:57 +0200
Subject: jython and java exceptions
Message-ID: <slrnch2dqk.1h3.gregor.jan@ins1.opera.com>

Hello

 I found that jython catches exact java exceptions, not their
subclasses. Is there some way to get around this limitation (or error) ?

 My program has class representing database source and specialed classes
for particulars databases. Now there are two options - to include
exception (subclasses of SQLException) for every db in except (so
all drivers has to be present) or to move methods to subclasses.


Jan


From ben at benlast.com  Tue Aug 17 09:48:21 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:48:21 +0100
Subject: How big can a Python program be?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408170910560.31141-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPCEAGCEAA.ben@benlast.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org
> [mailto:python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org]On Behalf Of
> Christopher T King
> Sent: 17 August 2004 14:13
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Re: How big can a Python program be?
> 
> 
> On 17 Aug 2004 vronskij at post.sk wrote:
> 
> > Suppose , you are a sole programmer (lonewolf). How many lines can one
> > handle?
> 
> $ wc -l my_current_big_project_that_is_very_far_from_being_complete/*
>    2945
> 
> I'm sure others can do better than that.
> 
> -- 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From blaktyger at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 11 21:47:33 2004
From: blaktyger at hotmail.com (Blaktyger)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 18:47:33 -0700
Subject: Images not diplayed...
Message-ID: <c9e6ac92.0408111747.2a7ab49d@posting.google.com>

Helllo,

I'm trying to set up a web page where users can upload their pictures.
I wrote a python script witch allows users to preview the pictures
posted to the database. Problem  is that under Mozilla Firefox, the
images are not displayed.

This is the script I wrote:
#!/usr/bin/python2.3

print 'Content-Type: text/html\n\n'
import blakHtml, sys, cgi, urllib
sys.stderr = sys.stdout
prevSt=cgi.FieldStorage()


1 if not prevSt.has_key('nbOfPic'):
2     print 'blah blah!'
3 else:
4    nbOfPic2=prevSt['nbOfPic'].value

5prevPg=blakHtml.HTMLDocument()


6 header=prevPg.htmlHeader('Picture Preview')
7 beginTable=prevPg.tableTag()
8 p=0

9 nbOfLine=0
10 addLine=' '
11 for picLinked in range(int(nbOfPic2)):
12     p=p+1
13     exec("""if not prevSt.has_key('pin_nb_%s'):
14     pass
15 else:
16     addLine=addLine +'<img border="0" src="
'+prevSt['pin_nb_%s'].value+'" 17 width="204" height="152"> 
'+prevSt['pin_nb_%s'].value
18     nbOfLine=nbOfLine+1
19     if nbOfLine==5: 
20         nbOfLine=0
21         addLine=addLine+'<br>' """)%(p,p,p)
22 print header+addLine+prevPg.htmlFooter()

line 6 generates the web page title
the loop check for non-null cgi values and creates the corresponding
<img> tag

Link to webpage http://pythonboard.homelinux.com/cgi-bin/howManyPics.py

Thanks!


From vonehr at ipm.fhg.de  Mon Aug 23 12:01:40 2004
From: vonehr at ipm.fhg.de (Markus von Ehr)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 18:01:40 +0200
Subject: Executing bytecode from a string.
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.11.07.18.32.690395@proteus-tech.com>
References: <pan.2004.08.11.07.18.32.690395@proteus-tech.com>
Message-ID: <cgd4a7$97j$1@news2.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>

Benjamin Scherrey schrieb:

> I'm curious as to how difficult it would be to take a string that contains
> compiled bytecode, load it into memory, give it a function name then
> execute that function. I'm thinking of a database that contains compiled
> objects that I can load and execute. I'm also curious as to what level of
> grainularity this would work - module, class, class method, function?
> Anyone tried to do this before? Obviously dependencies are a consideration
> but I'm more interested in the mechanics of this. Appreciate ideas &
> pointers you might have...
> 
> 	Ben Scherrey

I am just writing my Macro/Script in python sourcecode.
In the program I'm doing:

f = open('segment.py','r')
str = f.read()
f.close()

segment_code = compile(str, '<string>', 'exec')

exec(segment_code)

Markus


From indrek.kruusa at tuleriit.ee  Sat Aug  7 03:34:43 2004
From: indrek.kruusa at tuleriit.ee (Indrek Kruusa)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 10:34:43 +0300
Subject: Importance of C# (was Re: IronPython-0.6 is now available!)
In-Reply-To: <aZOdnamc0Pt9k4ncRVn-sg@powergate.ca>
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>	<ce9cp3$g39$1@bagan.srce.hr>	<5dydnZSDZaARoZXcRVn-ug@powergate.ca>	<gmint1-db3.ln1@lairds.us>	<9418be08.0407292114.129c856f@posting.google.com>	<mailman.1318.1091832179.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<aZOdnamc0Pt9k4ncRVn-sg@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <41148613.6060807@tuleriit.ee>

Peter Hansen wrote:

> Indrek Kruusa wrote:
>
>> A little comparison of C#, perl and python here (Speed test in menu):
>>
>> http://www.tuleriit.ee/progs/
>
>
> <snip>

> Do you pick a new test case, or write inefficient code that no 
> programmer experienced in that
> language would actually write?   I'm not sure of the answer...


This is just an attempt to provide something more fun and "real" than 
just simple measuring of millions of iterations over a+=1 in different 
languages. It includes simple string operations, date manipulating, some 
calculating and I/O.
Those things are somehow comparable in the means of execution speed. To 
compare fullblown solutions...I don't know...you can write thesis about 
it but among other aspects you definitely need a fair and simple speed 
test and then I suppose you will find my 2c quite usable :)

Indrek



From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug 27 07:51:54 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 07:51:54 -0400
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
In-Reply-To: <b301fb47.0408260503.5dbb08f5@posting.google.com>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<VJOdnfiBTci22rDcRVn-gg@adelphia.com>
	<aNidnUSV4-OK4rDcRVn-jA@powergate.ca>
	<b301fb47.0408260503.5dbb08f5@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <IP-dne7gas7GvbLcRVn-gw@powergate.ca>

norman werner wrote:

> Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
>>Robert wrote:
>>>Isn't "Xah Lee" chinese for "Moron"?
>>No, it's Esperanto (universal language) for "troll"...
> 
> Bonvolu ne s:ercu pri nekonatoj aferoj. "Xah Lee" certe - pro manko de
> Ikso - ne estas esperanto. Kaj via s:erco nur s:tulta estas.
> 
> Norman
> tradukita:
> You certainly have not the slightest idea about esperanto. So please 
> dont't emberass yourself. And back to topic(?): "Xah lee" is not
> esperanto.

Well, let's see how your clear your mind was today.

Either it's a joke, in which case it is clear to all
that it doesn't really mean troll, or it's not a joke
in which case I obviously don't know Esperanto.

Here are the facts:

1. It's a joke, as you surmised.

2. I know Esperanto.

Now can you perhaps see that your first comment in the poor
translation of your own Esperanto is invalid and offensive?

By the way, to those not fluent in both languages, what this
fellow really wrote was more along the lines of "Please do not
joke about things you don't know about.  Xah Lee certainly --
because Esperanto has no "x" -- is not Esperanto.  And your
joke is merely stupid."

If you're going to accuse me of stupidity, please at least
get your own translation and logic skills in working order
first.

-Peter


From elainejackson7355 at home.com  Sun Aug 29 18:50:45 2004
From: elainejackson7355 at home.com (Elaine Jackson)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 22:50:45 GMT
Subject: play a midi file from the interpreter?
Message-ID: <95tYc.261224$J06.123492@pd7tw2no>

(How) can you make it so that a function invoked in the python interpreter can
run another program? (Like the webbrowser module does, only not with a web
browser.) If it matters the OS is Windows98 and the specific aim in mind is to
have a function that saves some data as a midi file and then causes the said
midi file to play.




From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Wed Aug 25 22:01:21 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 02:01:21 GMT
Subject: python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
References: <mailman.2274.1093330945.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<3l3pi0pgmgu0uir1ucnj0rlfo355c6i5cp@4ax.com>
	<8ab0589d.0408251103.13ddda04@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cdgqi01knhhthvrah1bnnqds0lnhk8226g@4ax.com>

On 25 Aug 2004 12:03:49 -0700, brett at python.org (Brett C.) wrote:

>Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote in message news:<3l3pi0pgmgu0uir1ucnj0rlfo355c6i5cp at 4ax.com>...
>
>python-dev is meant for discussing details about  Python's evolution. 
>The idea is that pie-in-the-sky ideas get hashed out in the community
>(which c.l.py is the gateway), once it gets clarified and has
>community support it moves over to python-dev, it gets discussed
>there, and either gets accepted, canned, or revised and sent back out
>to the community for more refinement.

Huh?

I don't agree that it is supposed to work in any particular way.  It
works the way it works. 

There *is* a BDFL,  

Which is fine with me, but inconsistent with a defined structure of
the kind you are trying to describe, or any other kind for that
matter.

>> You see the point...
>> 
>> I don't think you want to say to the People, either to crash the
>> Senate floor, or hold their peace,
>> 
>
>Just to start off, I hope everyone realizes this is my opinion and in
>no way do I represent python-dev in any official way.  Even with the
>Summaries I just happen to be dumb enough to do them so they just let
>me play in my little corner while I write up the history book.  =)
>
>OK, with that disclaimer out of the way...
>
>That is the reverse order of things are supposed to be. 

Huh?

I don't agree that it is supposed to work in any particular way.  It
works the way it works. 

There *is* a BDFL,  

Which is fine with me, but inconsistent with a defined structure of
the kind you are trying to describe, or any other kind for that
matter.


Art


From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Wed Aug 18 13:29:37 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 13:29:37 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <2ohhqhFa1qgmU1@uni-berlin.de>

Lucas Raab wrote:
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....

I'm 13, I'll be 14 in 89 days. I started doing somewhat real programming 
at around 11; I had done silly things in a VB-like language for Mac OS 
before then, mostly "viruses" that displayed a full-screen window with 
no close button, but hadn't written any code.


From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Aug 12 08:45:33 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:45:33 +0200
Subject: Integers have docstring for int()
References: <59e9fd3a04081105087366db98@mail.gmail.com>	<16666.13564.527138.202013@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<mailman.1515.1092243911.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<21064255.0408120327.4092144c@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cffopd$oj2$05$1@news.t-online.com>

Peter Abel wrote:

> The following seems to be unaccustomed, but it's good Python:
> 
>>>> class myInt(int):
> ...         """Instance of myInt"""
> ...         def __init__(self,val):
> ...                 self=int(val)
> ...
>>>> i=myInt(10)

Minor nit: assigning to self has no effect. you can leave out the above
__init__() altogether.

>>> class myInt(int):
...     "instance of myInt"
...
>>> mi = myInt(10)
>>> mi
10
>>> type(mi)
<class '__main__.myInt'>
>>>

As int is immutable, all the "interesting stuff" has to be performed in
__new__().

A more detailed view of what is going on in __init__():

>>> class myInt(int):
...     def __init__(self, val):
...             print "val-id", id(val)
...             print "self before assignment", id(self)
...             self = int(val)
...             print "self after assignment", id(self)
...
>>> mi = myInt(1000)
val-id 135719460
self before assignment 1076456780
self after assignment 135719460
>>> id(mi)
1076456780
>>>

I. e. you create an integer from another integer and immediately throw it
away. I used 1000 because some low numbers are "interned". For them
"val-id" and "self after assignment" would have been the same.

Peter



From barry at python.org  Sun Aug 22 23:47:12 2004
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 23:47:12 -0400
Subject: PEP 292 - Simpler String Substitutions
Message-ID: <1093232832.28573.16.camel@geddy.wooz.org>

Attached is the latest version of PEP 292, which describes simpler
string substitutions.  This PEP is slated for inclusion in Python 2.4
and will likely be checked in before the next alpha release.

The canonical location of the PEP is here:

http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0292.html

Cheers,
-Barry


-------------- next part --------------
PEP: 292
Title: Simpler String Substitutions
Version: $Revision: 1.12 $
Last-Modified: $Date: 2004/08/23 03:31:45 $
Author: barry at python.org (Barry A. Warsaw)
Status: Draft
Type: Standards Track
Created: 18-Jun-2002
Python-Version: 2.4
Post-History: 18-Jun-2002, 23-Mar-2004, 22-Aug-2004


Abstract

    This PEP describes a simpler string substitution feature, also
    known as string interpolation.  This PEP is "simpler" in two
    respects:

    1. Python's current string substitution feature
       (i.e. %-substitution) is complicated and error prone.  This PEP
       is simpler at the cost of some expressiveness.

    2. PEP 215 proposed an alternative string interpolation feature,
       introducing a new `$' string prefix.  PEP 292 is simpler than
       this because it involves no syntax changes and has much simpler
       rules for what substitutions can occur in the string.


Rationale

    Python currently supports a string substitution syntax based on
    C's printf() '%' formatting character[1].  While quite rich,
    %-formatting codes are also error prone, even for
    experienced Python programmers.  A common mistake is to leave off
    the trailing format character, e.g. the `s' in "%(name)s".

    In addition, the rules for what can follow a % sign are fairly
    complex, while the usual application rarely needs such complexity.
    Most scripts need to do some string interpolation, but most of
    those use simple `stringification' formats, i.e. %s or %(name)s
    This form should be made simpler and less error prone.


A Simpler Proposal

    We propose the addition of a new class -- called 'Template', which
    will live in the string module -- derived from the built-in
    unicode type.  The Template class supports new rules for string
    substitution; its value contains placeholders, introduced with the
    $ character.  The following rules for $-placeholders apply:

    1. $$ is an escape; it is replaced with a single $

    2. $identifier names a substitution placeholder matching a mapping
       key of "identifier".  By default, "identifier" must spell a
       Python identifier as defined in [2].  The first non-identifier
       character after the $ character terminates this placeholder
       specification.

    3. ${identifier} is equivalent to $identifier.  It is required
       when valid identifier characters follow the placeholder but are
       not part of the placeholder, e.g. "${noun}ification".

    If the $ character appears at the end of the line, or is followed
    by any other character than those described above, it is treated
    as if it had been escaped, appearing in the resulting string
    unchanged.  NOTE: see open issues below.

    No other characters have special meaning, however it is possible
    to derive from the Template class to define different rules for
    the placeholder.  For example, a derived class could allow for
    periods in the placeholder (e.g. to support a kind of dynamic
    namespace and attribute path lookup).

    Once the Template has been created, substitutions can be performed
    using traditional Python syntax.  For example:

        >>> from string import Template
        >>> mapping = dict(name='Guido', country='the Netherlands')
        >>> s = Template('${name} was born in ${country}')
        >>> print s % mapping
        Guido was born in the Netherlands

    Another class is provided which derives from Template.  This class
    is called 'SafeTemplate' and supports rules identical to those
    above.  The difference between Template instances and SafeTemplate
    instances is that in SafeTemplate if a placeholder is missing from
    the interpolation mapping, no KeyError is raised.  Instead, the
    original placeholder is included in the result string unchanged.
    For example:

        >>> from string import Template, SafeTemplate
        >>> mapping = dict(name='Guido', country='the Netherlands')
        >>> s = Template('$who was born in $country')
        >>> print s % mapping
        Traceback (most recent call last):
          [...traceback omitted...]
        KeyError: u'who'
        >>> s = SafeTemplate('$who was born in $country')
        >>> print s % mapping
        $who was born in the Netherlands


Why `$' and Braces?

    The BDFL said it best: The $ means "substitution" in so many
    languages besides Perl that I wonder where you've been. [...]
    We're copying this from the shell.


Comparison to PEP 215

    PEP 215 describes an alternate proposal for string interpolation.
    Unlike that PEP, this one does not propose any new syntax for
    Python.  All the proposed new features are embodied in a new
    library module.  PEP 215 proposes a new string prefix
    representation such as $"" which signal to Python that a new type
    of string is present.  $-strings would have to interact with the
    existing r-prefixes and u-prefixes, essentially doubling the
    number of string prefix combinations.

    PEP 215 also allows for arbitrary Python expressions inside the
    $-strings, so that you could do things like:

        import sys
        print $"sys = $sys, sys = $sys.modules['sys']"

    which would return

        sys = <module 'sys' (built-in)>, sys = <module 'sys' (built-in)>

    It's generally accepted that the rules in PEP 215 are safe in the
    sense that they introduce no new security issues (see PEP 215,
    "Security Issues" for details).  However, the rules are still
    quite complex, and make it more difficult to see the substitution
    placeholder in the original $-string.

    The interesting thing is that the Template class defined in this
    PEP has nothing to say about the values that are substituted for
    the placeholders.  Thus, with a little extra work, it's possible
    to support PEP 215's functionality using existing Python syntax.

    For example, one could define subclasses of Template and dict that
    allowed for a more complex placeholder syntax and a mapping that
    evaluated those placeholders.


Internationalization

    The implementation supports internationalization magic by keeping
    the original string value intact.  In fact, all the work of the
    special substitution rules are implemented by overriding the
    __mod__() operator.  However the string value of a Template (or
    SafeTemplate) is the string that was passed to its constructor.

    This approach allows a gettext-based internationalized program to
    use the Template instance as a lookup into the catalog; in fact
    gettext doesn't care that the catalog key is a Template.  Because
    the value of the Template is the original $-string, translators
    also never need to use %-strings.  The right thing will happen at
    run-time.


Reference Implementation

    A SourceForge patch[4] is available which implements this
    proposal, include unit tests and documentation changes.


Open Issues

    - Should the Template and SafeTemplate classes convert mapping
      values to strings (or unicodes)?  I.e. what should this code do:

      >>> from string import Template
      >>> Template('The cost was $amount euros') % {'amount': 7}

      Should this raise an exception such as TypeError, or should this
      return the string 'The cose was 7 euros'?

      Proposed resolution: no automatic stringification.

    - The pattern for placeholders in the Template and SafeTemplate
      classes matches Python identifiers.  Some people want to match
      Python attribute paths, e.g. "$os.path.sep".  This can be useful
      in some applications, however note that it is up to the
      interpolation mapping to provide namespace lookup for the
      attribute paths.

      Should we include AttributeTemplate and SafeAttributeTemplate in
      the standard library?  What about more complex patterns such as
      Python expressions?

      Proposed resolution: No, we don't include them for now.  Such
      classes are easily derived, and besides, we're not proposing to
      include any interpolation mappings, and without such a
      specialized mapping, a pattern matching attribute paths or
      expressions aren't useful.

    - Where does the Template and SafeTemplate classes live?  Some
      people have suggested creating a stringtools or stringlib module
      to house these two classes.  The PEP author has proposed a
      re-organization of the existing string module, turning it into a
      string package.

      Proposed resolution: There seems little consensus around either
      suggestion, and since the classes are just a few lines of
      Python, I propose no string module re-organization, but to add
      these two classes to string.py.

    - Should the $-placeholder rules be more strict?  Specifically,
      objections have been raised about 'magically' escaping $'s at
      the end of strings, or in strings like '$100'.  The suggestion
      was that we add another matching group which matches bare $'s,
      raising a ValueError if we find such a match.

      Proposed resolution: There seems to be consensus for strictness
      on the grounds of explicit is better than implicit.


References

    [1] String Formatting Operations
        http://www.python.org/doc/current/lib/typesseq-strings.html

    [2] Identifiers and Keywords
        http://www.python.org/doc/current/ref/identifiers.html

    [3] Guido's python-dev posting from 21-Jul-2002
        http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2002-July/026397.html

    [4] Reference Implementation
        http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1014055&group_id=5470&atid=305470

Copyright

    This document has been placed in the public domain.



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From kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no  Fri Aug 27 11:32:36 2004
From: kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Torgrim Homme)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:32:36 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<tyf3c28ps1t.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
Message-ID: <1ry8k0d2az.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>

[Jacek Generowicz]:
>
>   How about
>   
>       for car in rental_cars:
>           if car.make == "Lamborghini":
>               car.insurance = 1000.00
>           elif car.make == "Lada":
>               car.insurance = 50.00
>           else:
>               car.insurance = 100.00
>               pass
>           pass
>       logger.debug("Insurance values updated")
>   
>   ?
>   
>   Hmm ... not pretty, but at least it doesn't PERLize the language.

"pass" is a no-op, and should only be used when a suite is required,
but the suite should do nothing.  you're proposing a convention saying

   ''if "pass" appears in a suite which also contains other
     expressions, the "pass" signals the end of the suite''

that's a hack, and IMHO not worthy of a Python program.  not even Perl
has anything like that, AFAIK.
-- 
Kjetil T.


From richard.scothern at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 10:57:44 2004
From: richard.scothern at gmail.com (Richy2004)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 07:57:44 -0700
Subject: Unicode support
In-Reply-To: <eO2dncMsfuGIEI7cRVn-jA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <cf0698$nm1@odah37.prod.google.com>

code:
import sys,codecs
file = codecs.open("accountmgr_words_arb.txt", "r", "utf-16")
print (file.readline())

output:
File "./test.py", line 5, in ?
print (file.readline())
File "C:\Python23\lib\codecs.py", line 384, in readline
return self.reader.readline(size)
File "c:\Python23\lib\encodings\utf_16.py", line 57, in readline
raise NotImplementedError, '.readline() is not implemented for
UTF-16'
NotImplementedError: .readline() is not implemented for UTF-16

======================================================
code:
import sys, codecs
file = codecs.open("accountmgr_words_arb.txt", "r", "utf-16")
print (file.read())

output:
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "./test.py", line 5, in ?
print (file.read())
File "c:\Python23\lib\encodings\cp850.py", line 18, in encode
return codecs.charmap_encode(input,errors,encoding_map)
UnicodeEncodeError: 'charmap' codec can't encode characters in position
0-2: character maps to <undefined>

======================================================
code:
import sys, codecs
file = codecs.open("accountmgr_words_arb.txt", "rb", "utf-16")
lines = file.readlines()
print lines

this works !, output:
[u'\u0646\u0648\u0639 \u062d\u0633\u0627\u0628 \u062c\u062f\u064a\u062f
\u0645\u062e\u062a\u0627\u0631.\r\n']

if I add these lines:
line = lines[0]
tokens = line.split("\\u")
print tokens[0]

I get this: :(
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "./test.py", line 8, in ?
print tokens[0]
File "c:\Python23\lib\encodings\cp850.py", line 18, in encode
return codecs.charmap_encode(input,errors,encoding_map)
UnicodeEncodeError: 'charmap' codec can't encode characters in position
0-2: character maps to <undefined>

Thanks,
Richard



From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 13:19:21 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 10:19:21 -0700
Subject: elements of decorator syntax suggestions
Message-ID: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>

I think one of the biggest reasons we're having such problems coming
to any agreement on decorator syntax is that each proposal makes a
number of syntax decisions, not just one.  For decorators, I see the
following decisions that must be made:

1) Indicator
Proposals differ on how some sort of indicator of "decoratorhood" is
use.  These include:
* none (e.g. just the list, as in the "list-after-def" suggestion)
* the '@' character
* a new keyword (with, using, decorate, etc.)

2) Location
Proposals also differ on exactly where the decorator declaration
should be made.  These include:
* before def
* between def and function name
* between function name and argument list
* between argument list and colon
* after colon (first line in body)

3) List notation
As I understand it, it's already decided that any implementation of
decorators must allow for a list of decorators to be applied.  So
proposals that might be accepted must explain how this can be done. 
The options I've seen:
* one per line (as currently)
* commas only
* current list syntax (or some similar variant)

4) Indentation
Proposals also differ on whether or not decorators should introduce a
new block.  What I've seen:
* no block
* block

I thought the summary above might put some things into perspective so
that when you're arguing for one syntax or another, you can argue
separately for the points that matter most to you.  It might be that
we mostly agree on, say, the need for a keyword, or the block
indentation (though I'm certainly not holding my breath).  But I'd
rather hear arguments for the different sections separately because,
to some degree, they're pretty much orthogonal.


In case you were just asking yourself, "well, gee, Steve, what do you
think?", =) here's what I think for each of the points above:

1) Indicator
I want a new keyword.  A list alone (no matter where it's placed)
doesn't look any more like a decorator to me than '@' does.  I want
some sort of cue that reads more clearly.  I'm not picky on what this
keyword is -- 'decorate' seemed like a reasonable proposal, but I'd
even be happy with 'with' or 'using' -- but I don't just want
arbitrary symbols.  I think this is most important from the
perspective of new Python users, who will have to guess the meaning of
such syntax from someone else's code.  Having a keyword that makes the
usage clear makes this reading much easier.

2) Location
I don't like "between def and function name" or "between function name
and argument list" because I think they make it harder to see the
basic signature of the function.  Remember that we have to support
lists, so just sticking a in single word, like staticmethod or
classmethod, isn't an option -- otherwise, I could have perhaps seen
the merit of "between def and function name".

I'm not a big fan of "after colon" (like a doc-string) because I'm
more likely to read this as part of the function definition.  (In
fact, that's what I'd do now, so this is a semantic change, one of the
things I'd rather avoid.)

As far as "before def" or "betwen argument list and colon" go (and I
believe these are the major contenders), I could go either way -- and
I'm really not particular here; I'd rather have /some/ decorator
syntax than argue over these forever.  "before def" seems to deal
better with functions that have long names or argument lists (Guido's
example convinced me that I'd be confused where arguments ended and
decorators started), but "between argument list and colon" avoids the
two-lines-define-a-single-function problem.  Eh...  Like I say, I'm
not going to argue this one -- I could be happy with either.

3) List notation
I don't really have a preference here.  I can see that commas only
might be a pain if you need to use multiple lines perhaps.  But "one
per line" or "list syntax" would both be fine with me.

4) Indentation
I'd prefer that decorators didn't start a new block mainly because
that makes, for example, an instance method with an 'accepts'
decorator on a different block level than an instance method without
one.  Still, I could live with indented decorators.


So in summary
-> yay keywords!
-> before def or before colon, and 
-> whatever list notation and indentation floats your boat

=)

Steve


From brian at sweetapp.com  Fri Aug 13 10:14:16 2004
From: brian at sweetapp.com (Brian Quinlan)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:14:16 +0200
Subject: Pyhton Interpreter Startup time
In-Reply-To: <411CC6A2.7060202@cenix-bioscience.com>
References: <mailman.1556.1092304607.5135.python-list@python.org>	<30260531.0408120829.27a536bc@posting.google.com>	<EvadnaKm3bI9N4bcRVn-iQ@powergate.ca>
	<411C7262.1000803@cenix-bioscience.com>
	<411C8FB8.20901@sweetapp.com>
	<411CC6A2.7060202@cenix-bioscience.com>
Message-ID: <411CCCB8.6030401@sweetapp.com>

Neil Benn wrote:
> Brian Quinlan wrote:
> 
>>
>> Neil, are you using Norton Antivirus with autoprotect enabled? I've 
>> seen that cause problems in the past because NAV scans every file as 
>> it is opened and Python loads a lot of file on startup.

>          Good guess but no cigar!!!

Some other suggestions:

1. try running Python with the -v option is seeing if there is any
    obvious pause between imports, any imports of uncompiled modules or
    any importing of seemingly unnecessary modules

2. check your sys.path for references to potentially slow file systems
    e.g. network drives

What version of Python are you using?

Cheers,
Brian



From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Aug  6 18:16:41 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 00:16:41 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
In-Reply-To: <HBF.20040806qxkg@bombur.uio.no>
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no> <4112AC7B.1060508@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806egka@bombur.uio.no> <411343D7.3020604@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806c08y@bombur.uio.no> <411353A3.8090502@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806beaz@bombur.uio.no> <4113759E.2070405@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806rjgh@bombur.uio.no> <4113E755.8060205@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806qxkg@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <41140349.6090202@v.loewis.de>

Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
> - For a number of source encodings (like utf-8:-) it should be easy
>   to parse and charset-convert in the same step, and only convert
>   selected parts of the source to Unicode.

Correct. However, that it works "for a number of source encodings"
is insufficient - if it doesn't work for all of them, it only 
unreasonably complicates the code.

For some source encodings (namely the CJK ones), conversion to UTF-8
is absolutely necessary even for proper lexical analysis, as the
byte that represents a backslash in ASCII might be the first byte
of a two-byte sequence.

> - I think the spec is buggy anyway.  Converting to Unicode and back
>   can change the string representation.  But I'll file a separate
>   bug report for that.

That is by design. The only effect of such a bug report will be that
the documentation clearly clarifies that. Users that need to make
sure the run-time representation of a string is the same of as the
source representation need to pick a source encoding that round-trips.

> Sorry, I thought you were speaking of promising a __future__ when all
> string literals are required to be 7-bit or u'' literals.

Yes, but that *will* cause a wide debate. Say, Python 3.5, to be
release 2017 or so. I could live with such a language, but I'm
certain many users can't, in any foreseeable future.

Regards,
Martin


From mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no  Mon Aug 23 16:42:46 2004
From: mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no (Magnus Lie Hetland)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:42:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Standard graph API?
References: <slrncik8tm.4g.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
	<iGrWc.15065$v86.13623@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <slrnciklm6.e8q.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>

In article <iGrWc.15065$v86.13623 at fe2.texas.rr.com>, Paul McGuire wrote:
[snip]
>Not sure if this falls under the category of an API, but it may be
>relevant to what you are doing.
>
>This is a Python API to the Graphviz DOT language:
>http://dkbza.org/pydot.html

Yes, I found that -- probably quite useful.

>So I think this is evidence you are not alone.

:)

>-- Paul

-- 
Magnus Lie Hetland     "Canned Bread: The greatest thing since sliced
http://hetland.org      bread!" [from a can in Spongebob Squarepants]


From tim.peters at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 17:19:13 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 17:19:13 -0400
Subject: @decorators
In-Reply-To: <10h7qlg5adbfj86@news.supernews.com>
References: <d22692a3.0408052234.7230fd74@posting.google.com>
	<roy-B53A92.08194306082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<10h73e5kh1et536@news.supernews.com> <4113e5be@nntp.zianet.com>
	<10h7qlg5adbfj86@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <1f7befae040806141923baaf07@mail.gmail.com>

[John Roth]
> ...
> Since I wrote that, I managed to read the new, improved
> and rewritten PEP, and discovered that the new syntax
> doesn't allow parameters.

It does.  What it says is "arbitrary expressions will not work", and I
would agree that's vague if you insisted it was <wink>.  What it means
is that parameters are fine, but things like

@list_of_decorators[index]
@eatme and deco1 or deco2
@random.choice([deco1, deco2, deco3])

are right out.  Note that the PEP still contains examples of
decorators with arguments, and the people who want decorators most
need them to accept arguments.


From python-url at phaseit.net  Mon Aug 23 15:12:20 2004
From: python-url at phaseit.net (Peter Otten)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:12:20 +0000
Subject: Dr. Dobb's Python-URL! - weekly Python news and links (Aug 23)
Message-ID: <mailman.2243.1093292749.5135.python-announce-list@python.org>

QOTW: "Lucky for me I found python before Java took over my brain." - Huy
"Python fits my brain" - c.l.py proverb

"So as far as I'm concerned, SOAP is not XML, nor is it useful to even a
fraction of the degree to which it is destructive." - Uche Ogbuji


    Over the weekend Andrea Griffini has implemented a toy Basic
    interpreter in Python, inspired by a post of Leif K-Brooks. A few
    other languages are also available.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=2oo13eFcj548U1%40uni-berlin.de
    
    Jeff Epler and Martin von Loewis help Vincent Delft to overcome the lack
    of encoding-awareness in the zip file format.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=4127a6d7%240%244090%24ba620e4c%40news.skynet.be
    
    As of June 2004, Pythonology has a few new success stories.
        http://www.pythonology.com/success
    
    Python people are nice, says Andy Todd.
        http://www.halfcooked.com/mt/archives/000833.html
    
    Something new from the decorator front:
    Paul McGuire initates another decorator poll and a new keyword
    followed by a suite seems to emerge as a viable contender with a small
    chance to beat the pie syntax.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=t07Vc.1179%24v86.188%40fe2.texas.rr.com
    
    Thanks to the work of Michael Sparks building on previous efforts
    by Mark Russell there is already a patch. Anthony Baxter, the
    outspoken proponent of the pie syntax, helps with some useful hints,
    too.
        http://www.python.org/sf/1013835
    
    Robert Brewer volunteers to "sell" the result to GvR.
        http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html
    
    Too old/too young is no excuse for not learning Python, according to
    a thread started by Lucas Raab, asking for the
        "Age of Python programmers" 
    with the only word of caution,
        "Not yet, but our day will come"
    being uttered by Robey Holderith.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?th=5f4805189aa2470d
    
    
========================================================================
Everything Python-related you want is probably one or two clicks away in
these pages:

    Python.org's Python Language Website is the traditional
    center of Pythonia
        http://www.python.org
    Notice especially the master FAQ
        http://www.python.org/doc/FAQ.html

    PythonWare complements the digest you're reading with the
    marvelous daily python url
         http://www.pythonware.com/daily  
    Mygale is a news-gathering webcrawler that specializes in (new)
    World-Wide Web articles related to Python.
         http://www.awaretek.com/nowak/mygale.html 
    While cosmetically similar, Mygale and the Daily Python-URL
    are utterly different in their technologies and generally in
    their results.

    comp.lang.python.announce announces new Python software.  Be
    sure to scan this newsgroup weekly.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python.announce

    Brett Cannon continues the marvelous tradition established by 
    Andrew Kuchling and Michael Hudson of intelligently summarizing
    action on the python-dev mailing list once every other week.
	http://www.python.org/dev/summary/

    The Python Package Index catalogues packages.
        http://www.python.org/pypi/

    The somewhat older Vaults of Parnassus ambitiously collects references
    to all sorts of Python resources.
        http://www.vex.net/~x/parnassus/   

    Much of Python's real work takes place on Special-Interest Group
    mailing lists
        http://www.python.org/sigs/

    The Python Business Forum "further[s] the interests of companies
    that base their business on ... Python."
	http://www.python-in-business.org

    Python Success Stories--from air-traffic control to on-line
    match-making--can inspire you or decision-makers to whom you're
    subject with a vision of what the language makes practical.
        http://www.pythonology.com/success

    The Python Software Foundation (PSF) has replaced the Python
    Consortium as an independent nexus of activity.  It has official
    responsibility for Python's development and maintenance. 
        http://www.python.org/psf/
    Among the ways you can support PSF is with a donation.
        http://www.python.org/psf/donate.html

    Cetus collects Python hyperlinks.
        http://www.cetus-links.org/oo_python.html

    Python FAQTS
        http://python.faqts.com/

    The Cookbook is a collaborative effort to capture useful and
    interesting recipes.
	http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python

    Among several Python-oriented RSS/RDF feeds available are
	http://www.python.org/channews.rdf
	http://bootleg-rss.g-blog.net/pythonware_com_daily.pcgi
	http://python.de/backend.php
    For more, see
	http://www.syndic8.com/feedlist.php?ShowMatch=python&ShowStatus=all
    The old Python "To-Do List" now lives principally in a
    SourceForge reincarnation.
        http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?atid=355470&group_id=5470&func=browse
        http://python.sourceforge.net/peps/pep-0042.html
     
    The online Python Journal is posted at pythonjournal.cognizor.com.
    editor at pythonjournal.com and editor at pythonjournal.cognizor.com
    welcome submission of material that helps people's understanding
    of Python use, and offer Web presentation of your work.

    *Py: the Journal of the Python Language*
        http://www.pyzine.com

    Archive probing tricks of the trade:
        http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python&num=100
        http://groups.google.com/groups?meta=site%3Dgroups%26group%3Dcomp.lang.python.*

Previous - (U)se the (R)esource, (L)uke! - messages are listed here:
  http://www.ddj.com/topics/pythonurl/         
  http://purl.org/thecliff/python/url.html (dormant)
or
  http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_q=+Python-URL!&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python


Suggestions/corrections for next week's posting are always welcome.
E-mail to <Python-URL at phaseit.net> should get through.

To receive a new issue of this posting in e-mail each Monday morning
(approximately), ask <claird at phaseit.net> to subscribe.  Mention
"Python-URL!".


-- The Python-URL! Team--

Dr. Dobb's Journal (http://www.ddj.com) is pleased to participate in and
sponsor the "Python-URL!" project.




From beliavsky at aol.com  Tue Aug 10 09:56:41 2004
From: beliavsky at aol.com (beliavsky at aol.com)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 06:56:41 -0700
Subject: Paul Graham on Python hackers
References: <cf1p1f$ke0@odak26.prod.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.07.10.51.16.393303@teliko.net>
	<slrncha2q0.1sd3.kirk@eyegor.jobsluder.net>
	<3064b51d.0408090448.31806af5@posting.google.com>
	<coWRc.5083$Wk2.301@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <3064b51d.0408100556.1962ba58@posting.google.com>

Bryan Olson <fakeaddress at nowhere.org> wrote in message news:<coWRc.5083$Wk2.301 at newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>...

> Functional?  Not so much.  In viable functional languages
> expressions/statement are evaluated primarily for their return
> values and not their side-effects.  (In purely functional
> languages, there are no side-effects).

I don't know enough about functional programming (FP) to argue. David
Mertz wrote some articles on FP in Python -- see
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/library/l-prog.html .


From d-hanst at online.no  Thu Aug 12 13:03:22 2004
From: d-hanst at online.no (Dag Hansteen)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:03:22 +0200
Subject: Question
References: <002b01c47fdd$bf0c2280$4e01a8c0@dagan> <411A9AD3.2020401@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <002e01c4808e$5c0a0b50$4e01a8c0@dagan>

hi Shane!
What I want is *just* to resolve an expression in a string like:
a = "2+2"

then

b = eval(a)

so b = 4

I dont want it to be possible to type for example commands such as __import__('os') and be able to use any functions in that module in the wxTextCtrl which is only ment to calculate numbers!

If you understand....

regards Dag Hansteen!


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Shane Holloway (IEEE)" <shane.holloway at ieee.org>
To: "Dag Hansteen" <d-hanst at online.no>
Cc: <python-list at python.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 12:16 AM
Subject: Re: Question


> Dag,
> 
> If you want to execute python-type statements, then you will want to use 
> eval().  However, if your input is limited to smaller expressions, you 
> can parse the input into pieces and then interpret them.
> 
> So, what I'm saying is that you need to provide more information.  What 
> subset of eval's functionality do you need?
> 
> Regards,
> -Shane Holloway
> 
> Dag Hansteen wrote:
>  > I make a GUI calculator in wxPython.
>  > How can I do the following without having to use eval?:
>  >
>  >     def OnCalc(self, event):
>  >         try:
>  >             regnestykke = self.formel.GetValue()
>  >             svar = eval(regnestykke)
>  >             svar = str(svar)
>  >             self.answer.SetValue(svar)
>  >         except:
>  >             self.answer.SetValue("Error! Check Syntax!")
>  >
>  > """
>  > self.formel is defined as wxTextCtrl for the input from user to be
>  > calculated
>  > self.answer is defined as wxTextCtrl for the answer of the users input
>  > """
> 
> 
> 



From sross at connectmail.carleton.ca  Wed Aug 11 19:56:00 2004
From: sross at connectmail.carleton.ca (Sean Ross)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 19:56:00 -0400
Subject: Set, Mark, and Apply Decoration
Message-ID: <8mySc.15584$a65.742069@news20.bellglobal.com>

Set, Mark, and Apply Decoration

Provide a means to set the decoration that will be applied to all
marked functions (and maybe classes) within a scope (module, class,
or function).

For example purposes, I will use a decor object that would presumably
be made available in each scope (via locals, perhaps). I'll say that
it has (atleast[*]) a method set() with the following signature:

    def set(self, *decorators, **attributes):
        ...

This method could be used to set/reset the decor, 0 to n times, within a
given scope. The decor of one scope would only be applicable within itself
and, perhaps, within its nested scopes. In this way, you could define a
region(s) wherein the same decoration(s) could be applied to marked
functions - there would be no need to repeat the decoration declarations
for functions that share the same decor.

The functions to be decorated (using the current decor) would be marked.
This demarcation could be done by a symbol or by a keyword. E.g.,

'<MARK> def foo():'  OR  'def <MARK> foo():'  OR  'def foo() <MARK>:'


Where <MARK> can be replaced by whatever is deemed the least objectionable
symbol or keyword. For example purposes, I'll use 'def *foo():'.

I'll give an example, now, showing this proposal side by side with the
current decoration scheme:

# current scheme        # proposed scheme
class A(object):            class A(object):
    # static methods           # static methods
    @staticmethod              decor.set(staticmethod)
    def f():                             def *f():
        pass                                pass
    @staticmethod              def *g():
    def g():                                 pass
        pass                             ...
        ...                                  ...
    # undecorated                # undecorated
    def h():                             def h():
        pass                                pass

    # class methods             # class methods
    @classmethod               decor.set(classmethod)
    def i():                              def *i():
        pass                                pass
    @classmethod               def *j():
    def j():                                  pass
        pass                            ...
    ...                                     ...
    # garish                          # garish
    D = compose(A,B,C,    decor.set(A,B,C,
      funcattrs(d='d',                 d='d',e='e',f='f'
        e='e',f='f'))                   def *k():
    @D                                     pass
    def k():                            def *l():
        pass                               pass
    @D                                 ...
    def l():                             ...
       pass                            ...


NOTE: That garish one is *much* worse if you don't use function composition.

[*]
You might want a way to clear the decor, or a way to add or remove
decorations without resetting the entire decor, or a way to ask what
the current decor is, if any.





From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Aug  6 17:05:43 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 17:05:43 -0400
Subject: Queue qsize = unreliable?
References: <mailman.1285.1091808631.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cf0rr7$hhl$1@panix2.panix.com>

In article <mailman.1285.1091808631.5135.python-list at python.org>,
Ames Andreas (MPA/DF) <Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com> wrote:
>
>I've got one:  If you have the special situation that there is only a
>single consumer with potentially multiple suppliers (or similarly if
>you have it the other way around), you could implement the consumer in
>a non-blocking manner.  Then it's not that important to get "the exact
>current size" which would still be unreliable but it is important to
>have a reliable empty method (or rather !empty() and full() are
>reliable in this situation).  I think Queue is reliable in this
>respect but to get it additionally non-blocking you will have to roll
>your own queue.

Try reading the Queue docs -- there IS a non-blocking Queue already.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From __peter__ at web.de  Mon Aug 16 16:40:43 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 22:40:43 +0200
Subject: Simple exceptions question
References: <f8097096.0408161106.6292244f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfr64b$lob$06$1@news.t-online.com>

Nick Jacobson wrote:

> Say I have a function foo that throws an IndexError exception, and I
> want to handle it:
> 
> def foo(a, b, c):
>     print a[10], b[10], c[10] #, etc.
> 
> def main():
>     #define vars
>     try:
>         foo(a, b, c)
>     except IndexError:
>         print "Accessed array ", x, " out of bounds!" #???
> 
> When the exception is thrown, I don't know what triggered it!  a, b,
> or c?
> 
> I could put a series of if statements in the except clause, but that
> defeats the whole purpose of having the exception, right?  Is there a

Not necessarily. If you expect the IndexError to be rare you could easily
afford the extra time to detect the source of the error. 

> better way?

The problems I see with your approach: 

You are interested in the details of a failure that happens in another
function. That breaks the abstraction and I'd rather invent a custom
Exception.

You wrap multiple points of failure into one try block when you are
interested in the exact source of failure.

foo() can "semi-fail", i. e. start printing something and then choke.

Here is how I would do it:

class FooError(Exception): pass

def foo(a, b, c):
    try:
        a = a[10]
    except IndexError:
        raise FooError("a out of bounds")

    try:
        b = b[10]
    except IndexError:
        raise FooError("b out of bounds")

    try:
        c = c[10]
    except IndexError:
        raise FooError("c out of bounds")

    print a, b, c


def main():
    try:
        foo(*map(range, [11, 11, 5]))
    except FooError, e:
        print "Problem in foo():", e

main()


Peter



From stefan at eischet.com  Wed Aug 11 16:30:50 2004
From: stefan at eischet.com (Stefan Eischet)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 22:30:50 +0200
Subject: Rather than decorators, how about sections?
In-Reply-To: <411a6b9d$0$13688$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
References: <cfdegs$5oo$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<1C74C038-EBB6-11D8-8889-000A95857E5C@eischet.com>
	<mailman.1516.1092244260.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<411a6b9d$0$13688$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <55C5E32E-EBD5-11D8-8889-000A95857E5C@eischet.com>

Hi.

On 11.08.2004, at 20:55, Christophe Cavalaria wrote:

> Paul Morrow wrote:
>
>>> class Foo(object):
>>>     def spam(Foo):
>>>         print "Class Method"
>
> What is that ? It's ugly, it's a name alias and it'll be incredibly
> confusing when classmethods are inherited, which is exactly the most 
> common
> use case for classmethods.

Right, I don't even like it myself, but I still like it better than the 
pie for daily work.
How about using "class" as a first parameter? Even uglier, I fear.

You cut the good part of my post, I think ;-)

>> I like it!  It's simple, clear, ... Why isn't this the hands-down best
>> solution? Why do we want to be more verbose than necessary?
>
> It isn't a solution. It only "resolves" the problem for staticmethod 
> and
> classmethod which are only a very small part of what we do/want to do 
> with
> decorators.

And IMHO this is a part you should keep your ugly pies out of, because 
they're suggesting that something special is going on, though it's just 
a static method you're defining.


I was only referring to static methods and class methods, and since I 
don't see no use in decorators for my daily work (which does NOT mean 
they won't help many people!), I won't argue about other uses.

<putting on bulletproof vest>
If you really think it's necessary to have special syntax for caching 
return values, for checking parameter types etc, you're welcome, even 
if I personally doubt the usefullness of that stuff - you can still 
cache results *in your method*, for example. Or will we decorate our 
methods so much that they all resolve to a single "pass" instruction in 
the body? Some pie decorator examples look like the function body, 
stacked on top of the def line. *That* is ugly. ;-)
</>

For common stuff like static methods, I do still think decorators are 
overkill and the wrong way to go.

>> I wonder if there are people out there who've chosen something other
>> than *self* for the 1st arg (shame on them if they did! <grin>) who's
>> code this would break.  I've never understood why we didn't require 
>> that
>> it be called self in the first place --- why give them more than one 
>> way
>> to do *that*?
>
> Well, it might seem strange but :
> - It will break a lot of code which use a name different than self for 
> the
> first argument

Right. Starting with the usual Python tutorials and lots of books, I 
trained myself not to use other first args than self for normal methods 
*as they all suggest*. Perhaps self should've been a keyword from the 
start?

> - It'll break all existing classmethods

I didn't say "get rid of the old way of doing def m(x); 
m=classmethod(m);", so I don't think it would break any existing 
classmethod. When @decorators are in 2.4, will classmethod() and 
staticmethod() be removed at the same time? That would also break each 
and every legacy classmethod, wouldn't it?

> - It'll break code that binds arbitrary functions as a member 
> function. You
> can't do things like that anymore :
>
>>>> def f(s):
>>>>     print "Hi, I'm function f"
>>>> class Klass:
>>>>     doIt = f
>>>> Klass().doIt()

Okay, this might break, depending on how all this gets implemented. I 
wasn't even aware that this worked, perhaps because I'm usually 
restricting myself to a *very* obvious subset of Python. (My general 
rule is: I might be hit by a bus tomorrow, so a poor Java programmer 
might need to learn to read my code very quickly. I try to never write 
stuff that breaks this rule.)

How would you solve this problem with decorators, btw?
class Klass:
     @stuff
     doIt = f
?

If there was a rule that assigned functions in the class body (doIt=f) 
default to normal methods whatever their first arg is called, would 
that be okay? After all, that is how it works right now.

   Stefan

// stefan at eischet.com //



From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 18:28:26 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:28:26 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<cg30i5$2q$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
Message-ID: <loom.20040820T002753-686@post.gmane.org>

David Fraser <davidf <at> sjsoft.com> writes:
> 
> J2 L L
> 

I second that.

Steve




From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Wed Aug  4 15:59:39 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 15:59:39 -0400
Subject: Decorator syntax (was Re: PEP 318 - PyFIT comments)
In-Reply-To: <m3y8ku1yt4.fsf@tanelorn.bandersnatch.org>
References: <10h24oace15n97a@news.supernews.com>
	<du7zn5a1zxp.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>
	<m3y8ku1yt4.fsf@tanelorn.bandersnatch.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408041547040.16486-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu>

On 4 Aug 2004, Nick Vargish wrote:

> I just don't know where else to voice my opinion on this matter, but I
> absolutely hate the new decorator syntax.

I wish PEPs had a method through which votes could be cast, for or against 
the PEP (or parts of it), not unlike Bugzilla bugs.  At least then we'd 
have an easier and more organized way to give the BDFL some democratic 
input.  Either way, I really wish he would hold off on decorators until 
there's a consensus on them, rather than forcing them in amidst all the 
disagreements surrounding them.



From ayose.cazorla at hispalinux.es  Thu Aug 19 20:20:43 2004
From: ayose.cazorla at hispalinux.es (Ayose)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 01:20:43 +0100
Subject: speed
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408191528100.1138-100000@kleigh.nl>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408191528100.1138-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <20040820002042.GA6711@setepo.gotdns.org>

Hi,

On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 03:37:26PM +0200, Peter Kleiweg wrote:
> 
> I implemented a lexer in Pylly and compared it to the version I
> had written in Flex. Processing 219062 lines took 0.9 seconds in
> C (from Flex), and 5 minutes 54 second in Python (from Pylly), a
> ratio of 393 to 1.
> 
> Is this normal for Python, or does Flex produce better parsers
> than Pylly? I have been looking at the code produced by Flex to
> see if I could translate it to Python automaticly. But it has a
> lot of goto statements, and I haven't figured out how to
> translate those to Python efficiently.

Don't try to translate the generated code to python. Python code is
(almost) always slower than C code, because C is converted into machine
code, and Python has to be interpreted by the VM. Besides, python does a
lot of checks.

Try with PLY, <http://systems.cs.uchicago.edu/ply/>. If you have
experience with flex/yacc in C, this module should be easy to use.

You can also play with Psyco (a JIT compiler for x86) or even with
Pyrex.

But, IMHO, if you has to process very big files, don't do it with
python. Instead, write a simple C-module, which uses your Flex parser
and creates python objects with that information. It should be trivial
if you have experience with the C API. :-)

> 
> What are the average times used for text processing of Python
> compared to C?
> 

IMO, Python is a powerful language to do almost everything, but in some
cases it is bad. One of this cases is intensive computing (like parsing a
big file). Use the correct tool =)

-- 
Ayose Cazorla Le?n
Debian GNU/Linux - setepo


From ivoras at __geri.cc.fer.hr  Sat Aug  7 17:10:28 2004
From: ivoras at __geri.cc.fer.hr (Ivan Voras)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 23:10:28 +0200
Subject: psyco out of memory
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1267.1091788961.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <cetpoc$udc$1@bagan.srce.hr>	<m3acx9tp5b.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
	<mailman.1267.1091788961.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cf3gga$72a$2@bagan.srce.hr>

Christian Tismer wrote:

> Michael Hudson wrote:
> 
>> Ivan Voras <ivoras at __geri.cc.fer.hr> writes:
>>
>>
>>> I have this simple *dumb* benchmark-like program:
>>>
>>> #import psyco
> 
> 
> It crashes here, right?

yes.



-- 
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nath Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't
you understand?


From export at hope.cz  Tue Aug 17 03:07:50 2004
From: export at hope.cz (Lad)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 00:07:50 -0700
Subject: News server(NNTP library) and Python
Message-ID: <81a41dd.0408162307.3eb1ea36@posting.google.com>

I have a program that can send posts to a news server.The problem is
that I must find a free usenet(news) server that allows posting, which
is not easy. For this reason I would like to make a modification in my
program so that the program can act in a similar way how real news
server, that is to spread the new posts to another news server. But I
do not have much knowledge about the way how news server chooses
another news server to send it's new posting.
Can anybody give me a hint( idea)?
Thanks
Lad


From mensanator at aol.com  Thu Aug 26 22:59:36 2004
From: mensanator at aol.com (mensanator at aol.com)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 19:59:36 -0700
Subject: about presicion
Message-ID: <cgm82o$dem@odak26.prod.google.com>

Ali wrote:
> I was wondering if it was posible to get very good presicion. I mean
> like to the to the 100 th or more decimal place. if so how?

Get the gmpy module.

>>> import gmpy
>>> fn = gmpy.mpf(3**1996)
>>> fd = gmpy.mpf(3**2000)
>>> s = fn/fd + 1
>>> gd = gmpy.fdigits(s,10,100)
>>> print gd
1.012345679012345679012345679012345679012345679012345679012345679012345679012345679012345679012345679e0
>>>



From rmkrauter at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 18 01:05:13 2004
From: rmkrauter at yahoo.com (Rich Krauter)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 01:05:13 -0400
Subject: Piping stdout to Python callable
In-Reply-To: <4122DFE3.7060407@yahoo.com>
References: <bYbUc.24077$nx2.16696@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>	<slrnci3t3q.k5.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>	<WZxUc.25125$nx2.16316@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<4122DFE3.7060407@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4122E389.7060906@yahoo.com>

Rich Krauter wrote:

> [silly post snipped]

Oh, duh. You you said you need to invoke the code in  the
if __name__ == '__main__': part of the code. Sorry, I saw your post 
yesterday and didn't register that then. Obviously my suggestion doesn't 
help you.

Well, unless A.py looks something like

def main():
     ...
     ...

if __name__ == '__main__:
     main()


Rich



From ast-python-list at treibsand.com  Wed Aug 18 11:00:29 2004
From: ast-python-list at treibsand.com (Axel Steiner)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:00:29 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20040818150029.GH20829@chronix.treibsand.com>

> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....


22....started programming with 15 (Perl) ...

--
$|=1;@a=(a..z,' ','!',"\n");@n=(9,20,19,27,20,15,1,19,20,5,4,28,
29);for($i=10;$i>0;$i--){print$i;sleep(1);for("\b",' ',"\b")
{print$_ x length ($i);}}foreach$e(@n){print$a[$e-1];}print$a[28];

PGP-Fingerprint: 34A0 EF34 5033 14BE B7C3  D857 6FBD 9AE5 7C09 6C6A 


From mauriceling at acm.org  Tue Aug  3 19:44:15 2004
From: mauriceling at acm.org (Maurice Ling)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 09:44:15 +1000
Subject: Call for Grant Proposals
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408031110480.910-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408031110480.910-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>
Message-ID: <4110234F.1080004@acm.org>

Thanks for the reminder that it will stay in mail folders for a "LOOONG" 
time. I think I need to apologize for it.

The fact here is that the wordings of the call for proposal is not 
concise and instead on looking at the wordings clearly and suggesting 
better wordings, everyone seems to be only interested in attacking the 
open source vs. closed source of the problem, which might just be a 
minor problem here. If only open sourced projects are logically funded, 
then by changing the words, "The Python Software Foundation is seeking 
grant proposals for projects related to the further development of 
Python, Python-related technology, and educational resources." to "The 
Python Software Foundation is seeking grant proposals for projects 
related to the further open-sourced development of Python, 
Python-related technology, and educational resources." will solve the 
problem.

The crucial issues here are in my other questions that everyone 
convienently forgot, such as, what constitutes complete failure or 
partial failure of the project? Is not delivering a single deliverable 
account for complete failure? And what are the penalties?

I can't imagine that if you had been granted a grant for an open sourced 
development in python and was not told way in advanced that a delay in 
delivering a deliverable will result in you being forfeited the rest of 
the grant money and will have to pay back 150% of all the money you had 
received from the grant, until you had accepted the grant and working on 
the project?

There are more important issues here to solve than an argument between 
open and close source development.

Maurice

Michael Sparks wrote:

>>In either sense, I hate to think that I may eventually force
>>PSF to give me a grant for close sourced project.
>>    
>>
>
>*Force* a registered charity to give you money ?
>
>*FORCE* ?
>
>I doubt I'm the only one **utterly disgusted** by that apparent attitude.
>
>Consider what you say before you send things - you've just stated the
>moral equivalent of mugging a nun, and now it's on record in google and
>mailing lists and in everyone's mail folders for a LOOONG time to come.
>
>The only positive things you've done here is remind me that I should
>contribute to the PSF, and I sincerely hope 2 things a) that only OSS
>projects get financed, since they have very few ways of getting financed
>otherwise b) that some project like Star Killer gets financed to finish
>off what's necessary - open or closed that project will be a boost to
>many, many other projects. (I really hope they've applied)
>
>If it's closed however in the long term its net value is zero. (Much like
>much closed software I've paid for over the years)
>
>
>Michael.
>
>
>  
>

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From a at b.com  Sun Aug 15 07:12:04 2004
From: a at b.com (wonder)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 19:12:04 +0800
Subject: A email.cgi script
Message-ID: <cfni2i$j0f$1@news.hgc.com.hk>

Hi,

I would like to write a python script that can be used in my website for 
  other people whoever browse my webside to send an email using my smtp 
server. Is there any sample python script can do that?
Here is my python script, but it does not display To and From editbox in 
the webpage for user type in their addresses:

#!/usr/bin/python

import smtplib, cgi, string

form = cgi.FieldStorage()

# Change the lines below to specify the TO and
# FROM addresses

toaddr = 'dest at abc.com'
fromaddr = ''

# Special form fields used by the email.cgi
# script

ack_url = form.getvalue('ack_url',None)
ack_text = form.getvalue('ack_text','Your submission was successful')
subject = form.getvalue('subject', '')

# form fields to skip
to_skip = ['ack_url', 'ack_text', 'subject', 'to']

# create the email headers

msg = "From: %s\r\nTo: %s\r\nSubject: %s\r\n\r\n" % (fromaddr, toaddr, 
subject)

for key in form.keys():
     if string.lower(key) in to_skip: continue
     msg = msg + "%s: %s\n\n" % (key, form.getvalue(key))

server = smtplib.SMTP('mail.xyx.com')
server.set_debuglevel(0)
server.sendmail(fromaddr, toaddr, msg)
server.quit()

if ack_url:
     print "Location: %s" % (ack_url)
     print

else:
     print "Content-type: text/html"
     print
     print ack_text


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Aug 31 16:57:10 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 16:57:10 -0400
Subject: python 2 coercion
References: <OF73FBA423.487013C4-ONC1256F01.0052544C-C1256F01.0053838C@LBBW.de>
Message-ID: <ch2on9$886$1@sea.gmane.org>

>What happens (on the C level) if the python interpreter executes
>a statement like
>if <some strange extension type> == None:

For Jython, there is no C level ;-)  For CPython, the beginning point for 
such a question is the byte code (this is 2.2, but should be same in 2.3, 
but you can check):

>>> def equalNone(a): return a == None
...
>>> import dis
>>> dis.dis(equalNone)
          0 SET_LINENO               1

          3 SET_LINENO               1
          6 LOAD_FAST                0 (a)
          9 LOAD_GLOBAL              1 (None)
         12 COMPARE_OP               2 (==)
         15 RETURN_VALUE
         16 LOAD_CONST               0 (None)
         19 RETURN_VALUE

Now go to ceval.c, find the COMPARE_OP branch in the master switch 
statement, and see what gets called.  Note that at this point, the 
interpreter has no idea what is bound to 'a'.

Terry J. Reedy





From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Sun Aug 29 06:49:27 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 12:49:27 +0200
Subject: my first class: Args
In-Reply-To: <41315680$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408271601530.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<4130cf9d@nntp0.pdx.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408282222370.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<41315680$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408291234380.1159-100000@kleigh.nl>

Scott David Daniels schreef:

> I missed the sys.argv -- here is a sketch of a slightly better rewrite:
>
>  > class Args:
>  >     """..."""
>  >     def __init__(self,usage='Usage: %(progname)s [opt...] [file...]'):
>  >         "init, usage string: embed program name as %(progname)s"
>  >         self.progname = os.path.basename(sys.argv[0])
>  > ...
>  >         self._argv = sys.argv[1:]
>    class Args:
>        """..."""
>        def __init__(self, progname, args,
>                     usage='Usage: %(progname)s [opt...] [file...]'):
>            "usage string: embed program name as %(progname)s"
>            self.progname = progname
>            self._argv = args
>            ...
>
>
>  > if __name__ == '__main__':
>  >     ...
>
>    def demo(progname, args):
>        a = Args(progname, args,
>          'Usage: %(progname)s [-a value] [-b value] [-c] word [file...]')
>        ...
>
> if __name__ == '__main__':
>       demo(sys.argv[0], sys.argv[1:])

This goes against the purpose of the class: to take care of as
much of the overhead of script writing as possible. So I can
simply do this:

    import args

    a = Args()
    for line in a:
	do_something_with(line)

Or with some extras:

    import args

    a = Args()
    for line in a:
	try:
	    do_something_with(line)
	except SomeError:
	    a.error("something wrong")

In the last example, I would get filename and line number of the
input were the error occured, in the format understood by the
'make' parser of Emacs.


-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 12:06:31 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:06:31 +0200
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
	<dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
	<aN5Xc.205341$M95.157379@pd7tw1no>
	<1gj4fb5.607xsc51izh8N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xllg25lkt.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj4u3a.12ttba9fynd6uN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncis152.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<1gj5bp4.qhup8tldmvebN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncitrk7.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<1gj6cfv.nv3fziwoc81nN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrnciuchh.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
Message-ID: <1gj6pih.6lolffzvm5ucN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Antoon Pardon <apardon at forel.vub.ac.be> wrote:
   ...
> > Do I really need to point out that a.extend(b) doesn't work for tuples
> > and strings, while a+=b works as polymorphically as feasible on all
> > these types?
> 
> That extend doesn't work for strings and tupples is irrelevant.
> for those types that have an extend a.extend(b) is equivallent
> to a+=b 

It's perfectly relevant, because not all types have extend and += works
para-polymorphically anyway.

> In other words there is no reason to have an extend member for
> lists.

If lists were being designed from scratch today, there would be a design
decision involved: give them a nicely named normal method 'extend' that
is a synonym for __iadd__, so that the callable bound method can be
nicely extracted as 'mylist.extend' and passed around / stored somewhere
/ etc etc, or demand that people wanting to pass the callable bound
method around use 'mylist.__iadd__' which is somewhat goofied and less
readable.  I'm glad I do not have to make that decision myself, but if I
did I would probably tend to err on the side of minimalism -- no
synonyms.

However, lists had extend before += existed, so clearly they kept it for
backwards compatibility.  Similarly, dicts keep their method has_key
even though it later became just a synonym for __contains__, etc etc.

If the point you're trying to make here is that Python chooses to be
constrained by backwards compatibility, keeping older approaches around
as new ones get introduced, I do not believe I ever heard anybody
arguing otherwise.  You may know that at some unspecified time in the
future a Python 3.0 version will be designed, unconstrained by strict
needs of backwards compatibility and specifically oriented to removing
aspects that have become redundant.  Guido has stated so repeatedly,
although he steadfastly refuses to name a precise date.  At that time
every aspect of redundancy will be carefully scrutinized, extend versus
_iadd__ and has_key versus __contains__ being just two examples; any
such redundancy that still remain in Python 3.0 will then have done so
by deliberate, specific decision, rather than due to the requirements of
backwards compatibility.

A "greenfield design", an entirely new language designed from scratch,
has no backwards compatibility constraints -- there do not exist million
of lines of production code that must be preserved.  One can also decide
to develop a language without special regards to backwards
compatibility, routinely breaking any amount of working code, but that
would be more appropriate to a language meant for such purposes as
research and experimentation, rather than for writing applications in.


> furthermore a+=b doesn't work polymorphically feasable because
> the result of
> 
>   a=c
>   a+=b
> 
> is different depending on the type of c.

Indeed it's _para_-polymorphic, exactly as I said, not fully
polymorphic.  In many cases, as you code, you know you have no other
references bound to the object in question, and in that case the
polymorphism applies.

> 
> > It should be pretty obvious, I think.  So, if you want to
> > get an AttributeError exception when 'a' is a tuple or str, a.extend(b)
> > is clearly the way to go -- if you want para-polymorphic behavior in
> > those cases, a+=b.  Isn't it obvious, too?
> 
> No it isn't obvious. No design is so stupid that you can't find
> an example for it's use. That you have found a specific use
> here doesn't say anything.

I can silently suffer MOST spelling mistakes, but please, PLEASE do not
write "it's" where you mean "its", or viceversa: it's the most horrible
thing you can do to the poor, old, long-suffering English language, and
it makes me physically ill.  Particularly in a paragraph as content-free
as this one of yours that I've just quoted, where you're really saying
nothing at all, you could AT LEAST make an attempt to respect the rules
of English, if not of logic and common sense.

On to the substance: your assertion is absurd.  You say it isn't obvious
that a.extend(b) will raise an exception if a is bound to a str or
tuple, yet it patently IS obvious, given that str and tuple do not have
a method named 'extend'.  Whether that's stupid or clever is a
completely different issue, and one which doesn't make your "No it isn't
obvious" assertion any closer to sanity one way or another.


> > in-place mutation.  *IN GENERAL*, the effects of a+=b and a=a+b may
> > differ, though in specific cases ('a' being immutable, or of a mutable
> > type which strangely chooses to define __add__ but not __iadd__) they
> > may be identical.
> 
> which makes them para-polymorphic infeasable.

I don't know what "infeasable" means -- it's a word I cannot find in the
dictionary -- and presumably, if it means something like "unfeasible",
you do not know what the construct 'para-polymorphic' means (it means:
polymorphic under given environmental constraints -- I constructed it
from a common general use of the prefix 'para').


> > Like for a+b vs b+a: in general they may differ, but
> > they won't differ if the types involved just happen to have commutative
> > addition, of if a and b are equal or identical objects, i.e., in various
> > special cases.
> >
> > "You get different effects *in general*" does not rule out that there
> > may be special cases (immutable types for one issue,
> 
> If those specific cases can be half of the total cases I wouldn't
> call the not specific cases *in general*.

There is no sensible way to specify how to count "cases" of types that
have or don't have commutative addition -- anybody can code their own
types and have their addition operation behave either way.  Therefore,
it makes no sense to speak of "half the total cases".

Still, the English expression "in general" is ambiguous, as it may be
used to mean either "in the general case" (that's how it's normally used
in mathematical discourse in English, for example) or "in most cases"
(which is how you appear to think it should exclusively be used).


> The point is that there is a difference between what is obvious in
> general and what is obvious within a certain tradition. If python

Absolutely true: the fact that a cross like + stands for addition is
only obvious for people coming from cultures in which that symbol has
been used to signify addition for centuries, for example.  There is
nothing intrinsical in the graphics of the glyph '+' that makes it
'obviously' mean 'addition'.

> would limit itself to only one obvious way for those things that
> are obvious in general that would be one way.

I cannot think of _any_ aspect of a programming language that might
pertain to 'things that are obvious in general' as opposed to culturally
determined traits -- going left to right, using ASCII rather than other
alphabets, using '+' to indicate addition, and so on, and so forth.
Please give examples of these 'things that are obvious in general' where
you think Python might 'limit oneself to only one obvious way'.

> But here you are defending one thing that is only obvious through
> tradition, by pointing out that something that hasn't had the time
> to become a tradition isn't obvious.

When there is one operator to do one job, _in the context of that set of
operator_, it IS obviously right to use that operator, rather than using
two operators which, combined, give the same effect.  I claim that, no
matter what symbols you use to represent the operators, "TO a, ADD b" is
'more obvious' than "FROM a, SUBTRACT the NEGATIVE of b", because the
former requires one operator, binary ADD, the latter requires two,
binary SUBTRACT and unary NEGATIVE.  I do not claim that this is
necessarily so in any culture or tradition whatsoever: I do claim it is
true for cultures sufficiently influenced by Occam's Razor, "Entities
are not to be multiplied beyond necessity", and that the culture to
which Python addresses itself is in fact so influenced.  ((If you feel
unable to relate to a culture influenced by Occam's Razor, then it is
quite possible that Python is in fact not suitable for you)).


> Personly I don't find the use of "+" as a concat operator obvious.
> There are types for which both addition and concatenation can be
> a usefull operator. Using the same symbol for both will make
> it just that much harder to implement such types and as a result
> there is no obvious interface for such types.

True, if I were designing a language from scratch I would surely
consider the possiibly of using different operators for addition and
concatenation, and, similarly, for multiplication and repetition --
there are clearly difficult trade-offs here.  On one side, in the future
I may want to have a type that has both addition and concatenation
(presumably a numeric array); on the other, if concatenation is a
frequent need in the typical use cases of the language it's hard to
think of a neater way to express it than '+, in this culture (where, for
example, PL/I's concatenation operator '||' has been appropriated by C
to mean something completely different, 'logical or' -- now, using '||'
for concatenation would be very confusing to a target audience that is
more familiar with C than with PL/I or SQL...).  Any design choice in
the presence of such opposite constraints can hardly be 'obvious' (and
in designing a language from scratch there is an enormously high number
of such choices to be made -- not independently from each other,
either).

But note that the fact that choosing to use the same operator was not an
_obvious_ choice at the time the language was designed has nothing to do
with the application of the Zen of Python point to 'how to concatenate
two strings'.  Python _is_ designed in such a way that the task "how do
I concatenate the strings denoted by names a and b" has one obvious
answer: a+b.  This is because of how Python is designed (with + between
sequences meaning concatenation) and already-mentioned cultural aspects
(using a single operator that does job X is the obvious way in a culture
influenced by Occam's Razor to do job X).  All alternatives require
multiple operations ('JOIN the LIST FORMED BY ITEMS a and b' -- you have
to form an intermediate list, or tuple, and then join it, for example)
and therefore are not obvious under these conditions.  This is even
sometimes unfortunate, since
   for piece in makepieces(): bigstring += piece
is such a performance disaster (less so in Python 2.4, happily!), yet
people keep committing it because it IS an "attractive nuisance" -- an
OBVIOUS solution that is not the RIGHT solution.  That it's obvious to
most beginners is proven by the fact that so many beginners continue to
do it, even though ''.join(makepieces()) is shorter and faster.  I once
hoped that sum(makepieces()) could field this issue, but Guido decided
that having an alternative to ''.join would be bad and had me take the
code out of 'sum' to handle string arguments .  Note that I do not
_whine_ about it, even though it meant giving up both one of my pet
ideas _and_ some work I had already done, rather I admit it's his
call... and I use his language rather than making my own because over
the years I've learned that _overall_ his decisions make a better
language than mine would, even though I may hotly differ with him
regarding a few specific decisions out of the huge numbers needed to
build and grow a programming language.

If I didn't think that, I wouldn't use Python, of course: besides the
possibility of making my own languages, there are many truly excellent
very high level languages to choose among -- Lisp, Smalltalk, Haskell,
ML of many stripes, Erlang, Ruby.  I think I could be pretty happy with
any of these... just not quite as happy as I am with Python, therefore
it is with Python that I stick!


> >> If someway of doing it
> >> is usefull then I think it should be included and the fact that
> >> it introduces more than one obvious way to do some things shouldn't
> >> count for much.
> >
> > This is exactly Perl's philosophy, of course.
> 
> No it isn't. Perl offers you choice in a number of situations
> where a number of the alternatives don't offer you anything usefull.
> unless a way to do things differently and eliminate a few characters.

And for some people eliminating some characters is very important and
makes those alternatives preferable and useful to them, according to
their criteria.


> >> Sure you shouldn't go the perl-way where things seemed to have
> >> been introduced just for the sake of having more than obvious way
> >> to do things. But eliminating possibilities (method chaining)
> >> just because you don't like them and because they would create
> >> more than one obvious way to do things, seems just as bad to
> >> me.
> >
> > If a language should not eliminate possibilities because its designer
> > does not like those possibilities, indeed if it's BAD for a language
> > designer to omit from his language the possibilities he dislikes, what
> > else should a language designer do then, except include every
> > possibility that somebody somewhere MIGHT like?
> 
> So if you think it is good for a language designer to omit what
> he dislikes. Do you think it is equally good for a language
> designer to add just because he likes it. And if you think so,
> do you think the earlier versions of perl, where we can think
> the language was still mainly driven by what Larry Wall liked,
> was a good language.

Do you know how to use the question mark punctuation character?  It's
hard to say whether you're asking questions or making assertions, when
your word order suggests one thing and your punctuation says otherwise.

"You know a design is finished, not when there is nothing left to add,
but when there is nothing left to take away" (Antoine de Saint Exupery,
widely quoted and differently translated from French).  There is no
necessary symmetry between adding features and avoiding them.

But sure, it's a designer's job to add what he likes and thinks
necessary and omit what he dislikes and thinks redundant or worse.  I
met Perl when Perl was at release 3.something, and by that time it was
already florid with redundancy -- I believe it was designed that way
from the start, with "&foo if $blah;" and "if($blah) {&foo;}" both
included because some people would like one and others would like the
other, 'unless' as a synonym of 'if not' for similar reasons, etc, etc,
with a design principle based on the enormous redundancy of natural
language (Wall's field of study).  ((However, I have no experience with
the very first few releases of Perl)).  At the time when I met Perl 3 I
thought it was the best language for my needs under Unix given the
alternatives I believed I had (sh and its descendants, awk -- Rexx was
not available for Unix then, Python I'd never heard of, Lisp would have
cost me money, etc, etc), which is why I used it for years (all the way
to Perl 4 and the dawn of Perl 5...) -- but, no, I never particularly
liked its florid redundancy, its lack of good data structures (at the
time, I do understand the current Perl is a bit better there!), and the
need for stropping just about every identifier.  Why do you ask?  I do
not see the connection between my opinion of Perl and anything else we
were discussing.

> 
> I can understand that a designer has to make choices, but
> if the designer can allow a choice and has no other arguments
> to limit that choice than that he doesn't like one alternative
> then that is IMO a bad design decision.

Ah, you're making a common but deep mistake here: the ability to DO
something great, and the ability to explain WHY one has acted in one way
or another in the process of doing that something, are not connected.

Consider a musician composing a song: the musician's ability to choose a
sequence of notes that when played will sound just wonderful is one
thing, his ability to explain WHY he's put a Re there instead of a Mi is
quite another issue.  Would you say "if a musician could have used a
note and has no other arguments to omit that note than that he doesn't
like it then than is a bad music composition decision"?  I think it's
absurd to infer, from somebody's inability to explain a decision to your
satisfaction, _or at all_, that the decision is bad.

"Those who can, do, those who can't, explain" may come closer (except
that there _are_ a few musicians, language designers, architects, and
other creative types, who happen to be good at both doing and
explaining, but they're a minority, I believe).

I've never made any claim about Guido's skill as an explainer or
debater, please note.  I do implicitly claim he's great at language
design, by freely choosing to use the language he's designed when there
are so many others I could just as freely choose among.  (_Your_ use of
Python, on the other hand, is obviously totally contradictory with your
opinion, which you just expressed, that it's a horribly badly designed
language, since its designer is not good at argumenting about each and
every one of the uncountable decisions he's made -- to disallow
possibility a, possibility b, possibility c, and so on, and so forth).


> >   target = mydict[foo].bar[23].zepp
> >   target.pop(xu1)
> >   target.sort()
> >   target.pop(xu3)
> >   target.reverse()
> >   target.pop(xu7)
> 
> I find this a questionable practice. What if you need to make the list
> empty at some time. The most obvious way to do so after a number of
> such statements would be:
> 
>    target = []
> 
> But of course that won't work.

That would be 'obvious' only to someone so totally ignorant of Python's
most fundamental aspects that I _cringe_ to think of that someone using
Python.  By just asserting it would be obvous you must justify serious
doubts about your competence in Python use.

Assigning to a bare name NEVER mutates the object to which that name
previously referred to, if any.  NEVER.

Therefore, thinking of assigning to a bare name as a way of mutating an
object is not obvious -- on the contrary, it's absurd, in Python.

One obvious way is:

   target[:] = []

"assigning to the CONTENTS of the object" does mutate it, and this works
just fine, of course.  Unfortunately there is another way, also obvious:

  del target[:]

"deleting the CONTENTS of the object".  This will also work just fine.
Alas, it's only _preferable_ that the obvious way be just one, and we
cannot always reach the results we would prefer.

So, your assertion that this is a questionable practice proves
untenable.  But then, as this thread shows, _most_ of your assertions
are untenable, so you're clearly comfortable with the fact.   I guess it
goes well with freely choosing to use a language which you consider so
badly designed!


> If a language goes so far as to make a particular coding impossible
> while that would have been the prefered coding style for most of
> the project members then such a limitation can hinder the decision
> to agree upon a certain style instead of helping.

And in this case the team should definitely choose another language,
just like you should do instead of wasting your time using Python, and
yours AND ours whining against it.


> I also think this attitude is appalling. Python is for consenting
> adults I hear. But that doesn't seem to apply here, as python
> seems to want to enforce a certain coding style instead of
> letting consenting adults work it out among themselves.

Python most definitely does not multiply entities beyond necessity in
order to allow multiple equivalent coding styles -- it's that Occam
Razor thing again, see.  If a team wants enormous freedom of design,
short of designing their own language from scratch, they can choose
among Lisp, Scheme, Dylan -- all good languages with enormously powerful
MACRO systems which let you go wild in ways languages without macros
just can't match.  Of course, it's likely that nobody besides the
original team can maintain their code later -- that's the flip side of
that freedom... it can go all the way to designing your own language,
and who else but you will know it so they can advise, consult, maintain,
and so on, once you choose to avail yourself of that freedom?

Python values uniformity -- values the ability of somebody "from outside
the team" read the code, advise and consult about it, and maintain it
later, higher than it values the possibility of giving the team *yet
another way* to design their own language... why would you NEED another
Lisp?  There IS one, go and use THAT (or if you can't stand parentheses,
use Dylan -- not far from Lisp with different surface syntax after all).

I also appreciate this uniformity highly -- it lets me advise and
consult all manners of teams using Python, it makes my books and courses
and presentations more useful to them, it lets me turn for advice and
consultancy to the general community regarding my own projects and
teams, all without difficulty.  What could possibly be "appalling" in
not wanting to be yet another Lisp, yet another Perl, and so on?!  Why
shouldn't there be on this Earth ONE language which makes software
maintenance easier, ONE language which care more about the ease of
reading others' code than about the ease of writing that code?!  Now
THAT absolutism, this absurd attitude of yours that wants to wipe out
from the face of the Earth the ONLY language so focused on uniformity,
egoless and ownerless code, community, maintenance, etc, to turn it into
yet another needless would-be clone of Lisp, Perl, etc... *THAT* is
truly appalling indeed!


> > Great, so, I repeat: go away and design your language, one that WILL
> > impress you with its design.  Here, you're just waiting your precious
> > time and energy, as well of course as ours.
> 
> That you waste yours, is entirly your choice, nobody forces your hand
> to reply to me.

Absolutely my choice, of course.  But I have a reasonable motivation,
which I have already explained: there may be other readers which would
be ill-served by leaving your untenable assertions, etc etc,
unchallenged, when those assertions &c are so easy to tear into small
bloody pieces and deserve nothing better.

YOUR motivation for using a language you consider badly designed, one
whose underlying culture you find APPALLING (!your choice of word!), and
then spending your time spewing venom against it, is, on the other hand,
totally mysterious.  


> > Practicality beats purity: needing to polymorphically concatenate two
> > sequences of any kind, without caring if one gets modified or not, is a
> > reasonably frequent need and is quite well satisfied by += for example.
> 
> It isn't. Either you know what types the variables are and then
> using a different operator depending on the type is no big deal,
> or you don't know what type the variables are and then not caring
> if one gets modified or not, is a disaster in waiting.

Your assertion is, once again, totally false and untenable.

def frooble(target, how_many, generator, *args, **kwds):
    for i in xrange(how_many):
        target += generator(i, *args, **kwds)
    return target

Where is the "disaster in waiting" here?  The specifications of
'frooble' are analogous to those of '+=': if you pass it a first
argument that is mutable it will extend it, otherwise it obviously
won't.


Alex


From cemerick at snowtide.com  Mon Aug 16 07:39:02 2004
From: cemerick at snowtide.com (Chas Emerick)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 07:39:02 -0400
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <20040816022635.C24B71E4005@bag.python.org>
References: <20040816022635.C24B71E4005@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <DEC9FAD6-EF78-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>


On Aug 15, 2004, at 10:26 PM, Paul Morrow wrote:

>> I think the source of my gut reaction to the proposal you've advanced 
>> (aside from the conceptual action-at-a-distance violation that I 
>> already cited) is my past experience with Hungarian notation, where 
>> the name of a variable indicates its type.  The comparison isn't 
>> totally clean cut because of the special peculiarities of Hn, but I 
>> think the folly that it represents is a clear warning to stay away 
>> from taking type information based on naming conventions.
>
> I don't see your point about an 'action-at-a-distance' violation. 
> Wouldn't that only be the case if something we do locally has side 
> effects that break something in another part of the application?

In a previous message, I was talking about how a function declaration 
and that function's arguments are conceptually atomic, and that making 
any semantic connection between the two was conceptual 
action-at-a-distance.  It's a stretch of the term, but the best way I 
had to describe it at the time.

> As for the Hungarian notation, I agree that in its most abused state, 
> it can be a real mess for all sorts of reasons.   However in Python we 
> do use a very lightweight form of that in the way we identify private 
> and semi-private methods.

Ugh.  I know, and it's one of the little things about python that I am 
not so fond of.  It has the feel of something that GvM did in one of 
the earliest python scripts that just ended up catching on with a wider 
audience.  It screams 'accident', not 'designed'.  Please, no more of 
that.

- Chas Emerick



From davidf at sjsoft.com  Thu Aug 19 04:51:23 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:51:23 +0200
Subject: Standalone Python Programs...
In-Reply-To: <30260531.0408061548.283e96b1@posting.google.com>
References: <ceugpq$35rs$1@netnews.upenn.edu>
	<-aSdndbo7ry5E47cRVn-ig@comcast.com>
	<41139ac9$0$65604$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<30260531.0408061548.283e96b1@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cg1pmc$7e2$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

simo wrote:
> One of the attractions of IronPython is that you can build a single
> .exe (or .bin on Linux I guess?) although the user still needs the CLR
> runtime installed.
One of the attractions of Python is that you can build a single frozen 
file although the user still needs the Python interpreter installed ...

David


From oziko at fusiondementes.com  Wed Aug 18 10:32:11 2004
From: oziko at fusiondementes.com (oziko)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:32:11 -0500
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4123686B.4080106@fusiondementes.com>

I am 24 years old!

Lucas Raab wrote:
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....
> 
> 


From nobody at nowhere.com  Thu Aug 19 13:02:43 2004
From: nobody at nowhere.com (Fred)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:02:43 +0200
Subject: Interface graphique pour python
References: <8e16829.0408190650.3fa62d5e@posting.google.com>
	<mrl9i0tvo08ej97s7d5bi6hk9k5egh8cc6@4ax.com>
	<2ok3isFbgtl3U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <g5n9i0t2tqltct8qh2ru1qda54lma565bu@4ax.com>

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:43:55 -0400, Daniel Ellison <daniel at syrinx.net>
wrote:
>It looks like he actually has besion d'une application for 
>*constructing* a Python application. Perhaps Boa Constructor would help:

Hard to tell, even though I'm a native speaker :-) I'm currently
looking at PythonWin to avoid having to distribute wxWidgets, but it
looks like using wxPython is less hassle.

As for VB- or Delphi-like GUI builders, I launched a threat recently
in this ng which the original poster could read for a list of
available tools (short answer: QT Designer was the closest
equivalent.)

Fred.


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Aug 21 03:35:25 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 03:35:25 -0400
Subject: Overriding logical operators?
References: <59e9fd3a04082022392b749256@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cg6tvu$i7$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Andrew Durdin" <adurdin at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:59e9fd3a04082022392b749256 at mail.gmail.com...
> I noticed that, although there are special methods for most operators,
> they are conspicuously absent for the logical "or" and "and". I'm
> guessing that the reason for this is that these operators
> short-circuit if their first operand answers the whole question?

If you think of a op b as being an alternate, abbreviated syntax for the
function call op(a,b), then short-circuiting 'and' and 'or' are not really
operators.  Various Lisp dialects have various terms, such as 'special
form' for syntax that looks like a normal function call but isn't.  I think
we need a special term in Python also, such as 'pseudo-op' or 'syntax
operator' to flag 'and' and 'or' as importantly different from regular
operators.

Terry J. Reedy





From vwehren at home.nl  Fri Aug  6 02:18:21 2004
From: vwehren at home.nl (Vincent Wehren)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 08:18:21 +0200
Subject: [Python-Dev] RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1196.1091715567.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cev7mj$lt6$1@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>

"Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:mailman.1196.1091715567.5135.python-list at python.org...
| Anthony Baxter wrote:
| > Python 2.4a2 is an alpha release. We'd greatly appreciate it if you
| > could download it, kick the tires and let us know of any problems you
| > find, but it is not suitable for production usage.
|
| The Windows installer should support upgrading from a previous Python
| 2.4 installation. If you have previously installed 2.4a1, you may try
| this out; please report any problems you find.
|
| Regards,
| Martin

What surprised me a little is that on Win XP I could install 2.4a2 as a user
with restricted rights over a previously administrator-installed
for-all-users 2.4a1 standard-paths-used installation without
warnings/problems - well, except for the obvious errors writing to the
registry (and yes, I tried it intentionally ;). I am not entirely on board
with the MSI's capabilities, but is there a way to tell the user (before the
registry errors happen), that he/she may have insufficient rights to
install?

--
Vincent Wehren





From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Tue Aug 17 18:08:26 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 00:08:26 +0200
Subject: flex: plex?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1826.1092778661.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408172148210.3812-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<mailman.1826.1092778661.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408180004350.3812-100000@kleigh.nl>

Jeff Epler schreef:

> If plex uses python regular expressions, you can use the zero-length
> lookahead assertion instead of flex's A/B syntax: "A(?=B)"

Alas, it doesn't.


-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From luismg at gmx.net  Sun Aug 22 19:01:12 2004
From: luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 16:01:12 -0700
Subject: Python is to C as letters are to words.
References: <b14bfabe.0408221055.4f2dc1e7@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <278de0e.0408221501.6754d211@posting.google.com>

> My nine word description of the python language.

Huh? I guess you mean:
"C is to Python as letters are to words"
or
"Python is to C as words are to letters"

Am I right?


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Thu Aug 26 21:43:59 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 18:43:59 -0700
Subject: Newbie question on dictionary!!!
References: <494182a9.0408261150.a4c767f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1093571549.673654@news.commspeed.net>


"Balaji" <balaji at email.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:494182a9.0408261150.a4c767f at posting.google.com...
> Hello everybody...
>
> I want to ask a simple question.
>
> Suppose I have an list say g=['a','b','c','d']
>
> and I have an dictionary say k={'b':20,'a':10}
>
> Now I want to sort this dictionary on the basis of the list and if it
> doesnt find any of the element in the list then I wud like to replace
> it with zero..
>
> so I would like to modify k into {'a':10,'b':20,'c':0,'d':0}
>
> I have tried all the built in associated with dict and lists but was
> not able to come up with an solution...
>
> Can anyone help...

Dictionaries are not sortable but you can easily access the values in an
sorted order,

list = ['a','b','d']
dict = {'a':123,'c':456,'b':789}
newdict = {}
l = dict.keys() + list
l.sort()
for i in l:
    if dict.has_key(i):
        newdict[i] = dict[i]
    else:
        newdict[i] = 0
dict = newdict

That should do it,

Tom

     print dict[i]

Tom





From ramen at lackingtalent.com  Wed Aug 18 15:25:21 2004
From: ramen at lackingtalent.com (Dave Benjamin)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:25:21 -0000
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <slrnci7c7j.qve.ramen@lackingtalent.com>

In article <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505 at newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>, Lucas Raab wrote:
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....

I'm 25. Been using Python for about 3 years. I started programming in BASIC
on a Commodore 64 when I was about 8 years old.

-- 
 .:[ dave benjamin: ramen/[sp00] -:- spoomusic.com -:- ramenfest.com ]:.
        "talking about music is like dancing about architecture."


From peter at engcorp.com  Wed Aug 18 09:09:53 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:09:53 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <u_6dneootdi_yL7cRVn-jg@powergate.ca>

Lucas Raab wrote:
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? 

My average age has been increasing steadily for years. :-(


From CousinStanley at HotMail.Com  Tue Aug  3 09:54:11 2004
From: CousinStanley at HotMail.Com (Cousin Stanley)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 06:54:11 -0700
Subject: intersection of 2 strings
References: <e3dbc412.0408030437.bc62176@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <2n9jggFug56rU1@uni-berlin.de>

Antoine Logean wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> What is the easiest way to get the intersection of two strings in
> python (a kind a "and" operator) ?
> ex:
> 
> string_1 =
>
"the_car_of_my_fried_is_bigger_as_mine_but_my_girlfriend_is_more_beautifull"
> 
> string_2 =
> "my_girlfriend_is_more_beautifull_and_has_blue_eyes"
> 
> and the intersection :
> string_1 "and" string_2 = "my_girlfriend_is_more_beautifull"
> 
> thanks for your help
> 

Antoine .... 

  You might try the  sets  module .... 

  The following provides the intersection,
  but I don't know how to maintain the order
  from the original strings ....

sk at cpq1 :  /mnt/win_k/Python/py_Work/Sets  $ python
Python 2.3.4 (#2, Jul  5 2004, 09:15:05)
[GCC 3.3.4 (Debian 1:3.3.4-2)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>
>>> str_1  =
"the_car_of_my_fried_is_bigger_as_mine_but_my_girlfriend_is_more_beautifull"
>>>
>>> str_2  = "my_girlfriend_is_more_beautifull_and_has_blue_eyes"
>>>
>>> list_1 = str_1.split( '_' )
>>> list_2 = str_2.split( '_' )
>>>
>>> import sets
>>>
>>> set_1  = sets.Set( list_1 )
>>> set_2  = sets.Set( list_2 )
>>>
>>> is_12  = set_1.intersection( set_2 )
>>>
>>> print is_12
Set(['girlfriend', 'is', 'my', 'beautifull', 'more'])
>>>

-- 
Cousin Stanley
Human Being
Phoenix, Arizona


From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 12 19:16:22 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:16:22 -0400
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
In-Reply-To: <10hnqqm8h7b3k89@corp.supernews.com>
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
	<60dfb6f6.0408111846.615ee9eb@posting.google.com>
	<3YWdnYxLf--ObofcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<cffbbu$amv$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk> <411ba1db$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<EvadnaCm3bK0NIbcRVn-iQ@powergate.ca> <411bd3f0$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<10hnqqm8h7b3k89@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <411bfa47$1@nntp.zianet.com>

Jeff Shannon wrote:
> Mark Bottjer wrote:
>> FWIW, I don't object to the keyword, I object to the indented
>> block. I agree that newbies will need to look either up. My only
>> real concern is that certain suggested syntaxes (mostly the list or
>> tuple forms) look innocuous enough that newbies may not realize
>> that they've hit something new. Everything past there seems more
>> and more like simple preference.
> 
> The interesting thing here is that it seems that the reason you
> dislike the indented block is the reason given for preferring it by
> those people who *do* like it -- the fact that it *looks* like normal
> Python.

Essentially, yes. Because to me it doesn't *act* like normal Python.

> Frankly, if a new feature is so radically different from the rest of
>  Python that it's deemed that it needs to *look* radically different
> from the rest of Python for it to be understood... that, to me,
> suggests that it's a feature that shouldn't exist in Python.

Again, yes. In fact, I think that this is why the ternary operator 
finally got dropped. It just didn't fit, and the angst over trying to 
force it to made that clear.

> All the criticisms aimed at the decorate: syntax, ISTM, apply equally
> well to @pie syntax, except for the few that are based on indentation
> level.

Which are the only ones *I* was really trying to debate. :)

BTW: "ISTM"?

> And on those, *I* at least feel that it'd be preferable to pattern
> decorators after existing language constructs, rather than
> deliberately breaking all the patterns that Python has established.

Again, agreed. It seems like we both agree that the @pie syntax doesn't 
follow any extant pattern. Where we seem to differ is in our opinions of 
how well the decorate: syntax follows those same patterns.

> I see your point about it looking a bit odd that an indented block 
> contain only declarative statements.  However, the @pie mess in front
> of function defs looks, to me, to be not just odd, but downright 
> obfuscatory.  It's *much* harder for my eyes to pick out the def and
>  thus the function name, and all I see is a function body dangling
> from a blob of @pies.

Yup.

> Yes, this is personal preference, but it seems that it's a preference
>  shared by many people -- isn't Python supposed to fit my brain,
> rather than forcing my brain into Python's shape?

There seem to be many people who share a preference for each of the 
other options, as well. That's the problem: they all look horrible to 
someone. We can't seem to agree what "fits"; maybe that's a clue that 
the idea itself doesn't fit.

> The fact that one can get used to @pie-syntax doesn't mean it's
> intuitive.

This argument can be used for any of the syntaxes. "Intuitive" is in the 
eye of the beholder. In this case, what GvR's eye beholds is all that 
really matters.

> The fact that the feature is new doesn't mean that we need an entire
> new code-layout principle.  The differences between class & def, on
> the one hand, and try/except & if/else on the other, don't seem to
> confuse people too much.  I'd rather see the same layout principle
> applied in a different way than see an unprecedented and unfamiliar
> layout principle used in one or two special cases.

FWIW, I agree. That's why I like this option the best:

class C:
   def c(self):
     meta: #declare, decorate, transform, fubar, whatever...
       staticmethod
       doc('Doc.')
     pass

IMHO, this form passes all the of the criteria we've been debating. The
only criterion it fails is that it is "inside" the function, but I don't
consider that too big an issue: once you know where to look for the
additional information, you'll look there. Where-ever that may be.

   -- Mark


From nid_oizo at yahoo.com_removethe_  Fri Aug 20 03:48:56 2004
From: nid_oizo at yahoo.com_removethe_ (Nicolas Fleury)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 03:48:56 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <w0iVc.23881$Mt5.1145911@wagner.videotron.net>

You've been quicker than me to post "Alternative decorator syntax 
decision".  My post doesn't appear in the newsgroup on my side, so I 
post it in this thread.

Hi all,

The part of the Python community that doesn't like @decorators needs to 
unite behind an alternative syntax to propose to Guido.  I suggest we 
use this thread to try to do it.  If you agree with @decorators, then I 
suggest you stop reading this message;)

Many syntaxes have been put on http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators.

I suggest to fight the current @descriptors on these two points:
- Less Readable.  The @ character adds a new character with a magical 
sense.  It doesn't read in english as the rest of Python.
- Not Pythonic.  It's a line without a block (like try/finally) that 
affects a following line of code.  It breaks interactive shells.

I suggest that the alternative syntax to be both more readable and more 
pythonic.  Many syntaxes have been ruled out by Guido, but he seems to 
be open to a new keyword accessible with a "from __future__ import". 
Since a new keyword would make the syntax more readable (and easier to 
find doc about), I suggest to discuss these two alternatives, not 
necessarily with these keywords:

Proposal 1:

decorate: staticmethod
def foo(a, b):
     ...

decorate:
     accepts(int,int)
     returns(float)
def bar(low, high):
     ...

other possible keywords: predef, from, as, with

This proposal has basically the advantages of @decorators with a more 
Pythonic approach.  The main drawback is that the decorate block doesn't 
contain anything like normal statements, as with @decorators. 
Implementation already exists.


Proposal 2:

def foo(a,b):
     using staticmethod
     ...

def bar(low, high):
     using accepts(int, int)
     using returns(float)

other possible keywords: decorate, transform, with, postdef, as

The pool on Wiki suggest that most people would prefer an inside def 
syntax.  It would place decorators at the same place as docstrings, 
which is very Pythonic, since it's consistent with the rest of the 
language.  The main concern is that it places information that can be 
important to callers far from the def.  I guess the answer would be that 
it's not that far from the def and that sometimes the parameters names 
would give strong hints about the decorators.  For example, even if it's 
not forced by the language, a method with a first parameter not named 
self would be strong hint to check the first line of the body to see if 
it's a static method, etc.  I suggest to force descriptors to be before 
the docstring to make them as closer as possible to the def and ease 
finding them.  (Another answer could be that scanning down from the def 
is not that more bad than scanning up from the def).
Is there any implementation existing?

My questions would be: which of these proposals do you prefer to current 
@decorators.  Both?  None?

What keywords would you prefer?  Do you see any that I have not listed?

Do you think there's an alternative that I should have listed, even 
considering what have been ruled out by Guido?

Regards,

Nicolas


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Wed Aug 18 11:04:00 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 10:04:00 -0500
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <pIadnQQgBqt98r7cRVn-tA@comcast.com>

I'll be 50 in October.

Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.

"Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:jQHUc.1529$2L3.505 at newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....
>
>




From peter at semantico.com  Wed Aug 18 10:54:35 2004
From: peter at semantico.com (Peter Hickman)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:54:35 +0100
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <41236dac$0$8717$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk>

Lucas Raab wrote:

> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....
> 
> 

43 (20 years a programmer).


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug 20 10:52:55 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:52:55 -0400
Subject: Newbie to XML in Python
In-Reply-To: <cg50qi$52p$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
References: <cg50qi$52p$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
Message-ID: <Vumdna2hyvVTkrvcRVn-qQ@powergate.ca>

Jens Thiede wrote:

> XML in Python doesn't seem easy or intuitive. All I need to do, is to 
> interpret a small piece of XML in which I store data for the contents of 
> an autorun menu. What is the quickest/most effective way to do this?

Quickest to run or quickest to write?

Most effective how?

The answer might, as answers often do, depend on the specific
characteristics of your "small piece of XML".  I could easily
picture a tiny non-XML parser being considered the "quickest
and most effective" way for certain jobs...

-Peter


From tim.peters at gmail.com  Tue Aug  3 19:59:01 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 19:59:01 -0400
Subject: Call for Grant Proposals
In-Reply-To: <4110234F.1080004@acm.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408031110480.910-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>
	<4110234F.1080004@acm.org>
Message-ID: <1f7befae04080316593355ce1d@mail.gmail.com>

[Maurice Ling]
> ...
> The crucial issues here are in my other questions that everyone
> convienently forgot, such as, what constitutes complete failure or
> partial failure of the project? Is not delivering a single deliverable
> account for complete failure? And what are the penalties?

Nobody on comp.lang.python can answer those questions, no matter how
often they're repeated, and for the obvious reason:  comp.lang.python
doesn't adminster the grant program.  Nobody here is competent to
answer them.  Only the grant committee can.

As has already been explained too, the grant program is just starting,
and has no procedures in place.  All questions are brand new.  They
have no canned answers to give you, and it takes significant time and
effort to define everything to the level of detail you seem to want. 
There's nothing wrong with wanting that.  It does seem peculiar to
belabor it in an irrelevant forum, though.

> I can't imagine that if you had been granted a grant for an open sourced
> development in python and was not told way in advanced that a delay in
> delivering a deliverable will result in you being forfeited the rest of
> the grant money and will have to pay back 150% of all the money you had
> received from the grant, until you had accepted the grant and working on
> the project?

I'm not sure I can parse that, but to the extent that I think I can, I
also find it unimaginable.  If you're going to presume that common
sense and good will are absent, I'm not sure the PSF can afford all
the lawyer time it would take to draft a grant agreement you can live
with <frown>.


From ville at spammers.com  Sun Aug 22 04:36:16 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 11:36:16 +0300
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<7x4qmv6cwo.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <du77jrry3gf.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Paul" == Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> writes:

    Paul> Well, whenever I want to write a mainstream application and
    Paul> think of using Python, my first reaction is that Python is
    Paul> too slow...

What kind of mainstream application would be too slow if implemented
in Python? Well, perhaps image / video editing...

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From chrisks at NOSPAMudel.edu  Mon Aug  2 05:25:50 2004
From: chrisks at NOSPAMudel.edu (Chris S.)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 05:25:50 -0400
Subject: Sets Module Bug?
Message-ID: <cel1dm$o7o$1@scrotar.nss.udel.edu>

 >>> from sets import *
 >>> Set((1,2,3))
Set([1, 2, 3])
 >>> Set([1,2,3])
Set([1, 2, 3])
 >>> Set(([1,2,3],[4,5,6]))
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<input>", line 1, in ?
   File "sets.py", line 399, in __init__
     self._update(iterable)
   File "sets.py", line 344, in _update
     data[element] = value
TypeError: list objects are unhashable

How can a Set using a tuple or list be ok, but not a tuple of lists?


From robin at reportlab.com  Wed Aug 18 09:59:37 2004
From: robin at reportlab.com (Robin Becker)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:59:37 +0100
Subject: Python-2.1.x.tgz
In-Reply-To: <41235D37.7060102@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
References: <41235D37.7060102@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
Message-ID: <412360C9.5080105@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>

Robin Becker wrote:

> Does anyone know where I can get the latest source for Python-2.1. I 
> looked in www.python.org/2.1 and seem to see only Python-2.1.tgz.

I am a moron :(

there's a link at the top of that page
-- 
Robin Becker


From Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU  Fri Aug 13 00:36:56 2004
From: Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU (Michael J. Fromberger)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 00:36:56 -0400
Subject: PEP318
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<20040812090056.00001e31@titan>
	<7ttmh0t8c3cogtbhhnp1ohqu8b51pda461@4ax.com>
	<eppstein-09AC84.10350212082004@news.service.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <Michael.J.Fromberger-2BB70A.00365613082004@localhost>

In article <eppstein-09AC84.10350212082004 at news.service.uci.edu>,
 David Eppstein <eppstein at ics.uci.edu> wrote:
> 
> Also, it's not in the Zen of Python, but maybe declarative is better 
> than imperative?

This one comment particularly caught my attention.  

I generally agree with your above statement, but I don't think that this 
alone really justifies the proposed "decorators" (leaving aside the fact 
that they are still a moving target, semantically).

The basic idea behind PEP-318 wasn't too bad, in my opinion -- but I 
think in discussion it's been overloaded with a lot of declaration work 
that would be better off factored out over other parts of the language 
(e.g., type declarations in the parameter list; method transformations 
wherever the syntactic dust settles over PEP-318; documentary metadata 
preferably left out of the syntax and parsed from comments or doc 
strings).

To use the example of list comprehensions, I think we can agree that 
declarative constructs have excellent potential.  But this is Python, 
not Perl, we don't need to make a Swiss Army knife out of this one piece 
of syntax.  I realize you're not proposing we do so -- but, "declarative 
is better than imperative" could be taken too far by others.

-M

-- 
Michael J. Fromberger             | Lecturer, Dept. of Computer Science
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~sting/  | Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA


From Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com  Mon Aug  9 07:06:41 2004
From: Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com (Ames Andreas (MPA/DF))
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 13:06:41 +0200
Subject: Queue qsize = unreliable?
Message-ID: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA20@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>

Hi,

aahz wrote:

> Try reading the Queue docs -- there IS a non-blocking Queue already.

I did.  But reading the source suggests something different.


cheers,

andreas



From gen2n at seznam.cz  Tue Aug 31 08:06:33 2004
From: gen2n at seznam.cz (p.kosina)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:06:33 +0200
Subject: PyPI
Message-ID: <ch1pfc$1tqd$1@news.vol.cz>

I tried to make a registration on www.python.org/PyPI, but no email 
confirmation received. Is it working? Is anyone responsible for that here?
Thanks a lot
Pavel


From mwh at python.net  Fri Aug  6 09:41:13 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 13:41:13 GMT
Subject: static python build?
References: <mailman.1273.1091799407.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m38ycss7t2.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

mudd at vex.net writes:

> How do I build Python so that I get static libraries instead of dynamic
> libraries (e.g. build/lib.solaris-2.8-sun4u-2.3/math.so)?

Edit Modules/Setup.  The comments in the file should get you started.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Monte Carlo sampling is no way to understand code.
                                  -- Gordon McMillan, comp.lang.python


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Thu Aug  5 11:06:21 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 17:06:21 +0200
Subject: The term "Protocol"
In-Reply-To: <200408021444.i72Eidm11469@panix3.panix.com>
References: <pan.2004.07.31.12.27.23.547000@hotmail.com>
	<1f7befae04080117515cbb0ca9@mail.gmail.com>
	<6910338109.20040801192523@
	<mailman.1042.1091409923.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<200408021444.i72Eidm11469@panix3.panix.com>
Message-ID: <0300B212-E6F1-11D8-B90F-000A95EFAE9E@yahoo.com>


On 2004 Aug 02, at 16:44, Aahz wrote:

> [cc'ing Alex so he can jump in if he wants]
>
> In article <mailman.1042.1091409923.5135.python-list at python.org>,
> Bruce Eckel  <BruceEckel at MailBlocks.com> wrote:
>>
>> I know the term "protocol" has been used to describe a language 
>> feature
>> in a number of languages, but since we have no official "protocol"
>> support in Python I'm interested in what "we" mean by this term. I'm
>> going to guess that a protocol is like an interface in Java, except
>> that it doesn't have a concrete definition anywhere, but it is implied
>> through convention and use. Thus a protocol is a "latent interface." 
>> Am
>> I close? I'd like to understand this term better.
>
> Alex Martelli gave an excellent presentation on Design Patterns at 
> OSCON,
> where he made the point that "interface" is roughly equivalent to 
> syntax,
> whereas "protocol" is roughly equivalent to syntax plus semantics.  In
> other words, computer langauges rarely (if ever -- although I suppose
> Eiffel comes close) enforce protocols in any meaningful way.
>
> I'm hoping Alex posts his slides soon.

Sorry, ADSL down, leaving for the Alps tomorrow, emergency netting from 
an internet cafe` at $$/hour.  Hope to have my slides up when I get 
back (Aug 17 or thereabouts).  But yes, what I deduced as the meaning 
of "protocol" from its occasional usage in the literature (about 
components, mostly) is that it adds to the interface (syntax==method 
names/signatures) the semantics and pragmatics ("you cannot call any 
other method after calling close" being more pragmatics than semantics, 
at least in linguistics terms).  Languages do enforce protocols (e.g., 
raise an exception if you do mistakenly call something else after 
calling close), just not "at compile time" (not even Eiffel, where 
contract checking is runtime -- not even Haskell for its typeclasses, 
which is what I believe comes closest to compiletime protocol 
checking).


Alex



From mwh at python.net  Fri Aug 13 11:04:44 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:04:44 GMT
Subject: Difference between readlines() and iterating on a file object?
References: <411cd102$1@mail.hmgcc.gov.uk>
	<Xns9544A24CD2AE0duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <m3u0v7m644.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Duncan Booth <duncan.booth at invalid.invalid> writes:

> "Richard" <richardd at hmgcc.gov.uk> wrote in
> news:411cd102$1 at mail.hmgcc.gov.uk: 
> 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Can anyone tell me what the difference is between
> > 
> > for line in file.readlines( ):
> 
> reads the entire file into memory and splits it up into a list of lines 
> then iterates over the list. If you break from the loop, tough you've lost 
> any lines that were read but you didn't handle.
> 
> > 
> > and
> > 
> > for line in file:
> 
> reads part of the file and strips off one line at a time. Never creates a 
> list. Reads more only when it runs out of the block it read. If you break 
> from the loop you can do another 'for line in file' and get the remaining 
> lines.

But this last part only works the way you expect in 2.3, I think.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Ability to type on a computer terminal is no guarantee of sanity,
  intelligence, or common sense. 
                                 -- Gene Spafford's Axiom #2 of Usenet


From askari at addressNonValide.com  Sun Aug  1 16:23:49 2004
From: askari at addressNonValide.com (Askari)
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 20:23:49 GMT
Subject: Pygame - Only ONE Font found!?
References: <Xns95369F0F85C5DaskariaddressNonVali@207.35.177.135>
	<mailman.994.1091237691.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Xns9538A6D09A14CaskariaddressNonVali@207.35.177.135>

"Terry Reedy" <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote in 
news:mailman.994.1091237691.5135.python-list at python.org:

> If you don't get an answer here (pygame is an application of Python, but
> not Python itself), try the pygame mail list or gmane.comp.python.pygame
> via gmane.org.
> 
> tjr
> 
> 
> 





"Pygame is a set of Python modules designed for writing games."
And I'm redirect to group "comp.lang.python" if I need help.

For "gmane.org"... too long for access help...

Askari


From a.clarke11 at ntlworld.com  Sun Aug 22 11:55:13 2004
From: a.clarke11 at ntlworld.com (Tony Clarke)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 08:55:13 -0700
Subject: Help with Calculater (first program)
References: <8ff6f02e.0408211839.4057ff5@posting.google.com>
	<7xsmafhn8s.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <3353cd1e.0408220755.23dc18e9@posting.google.com>

Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> wrote in message news:<7xsmafhn8s.fsf at ruckus.brouhaha.com>...
> dave at inthegarage.net (aToaster) writes:
> > Hey guys, I'm just getting the hang of Python and Tkinter and I could
> > use some help.  I wrote most of the gui for my calculator program,
> > well I haven't gotten around to putting in the
> 
> Hey, that was my first tkinter experiment too.
> 
> http://www.nightsong.com/phr/python/calc.py

Mine too! 
I think the answer to your biggest question is to mutiply 3 by ten
before 4 is added to it, that would be a simple change.

Ciao
Tony


From prabhu at aero.iitm.ernet.in  Sun Aug 15 14:54:16 2004
From: prabhu at aero.iitm.ernet.in (Prabhu Ramachandran)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 14:54:16 -0400
Subject: Trouble with file.seek/file.tell on Win32?
Message-ID: <16671.45400.965715.943437@enthought.hathway.com>

Hi,

I noticed peculiar behavior under Python-2.3.4 under Win32.  When I
run something like this:

f = open('t.txt', 'wb')
f.write('1\012'+'2\012'+'3\012')
f.close()
f = open('t.txt', 'r')
f.readline()
pos = f.tell()
val = f.read(1)
f.seek(pos)
assert val == f.read(1)

I get an assertion error at this point.  Everything works fine if I
read the file with 'rb' instead of 'r'.  But I can almost swear that
this used to work earlier.  I suspect that this behavior arises due to
recent changes in fileobject.c (specifically, v2.187) where universal
newline support was removed.

http://cvs.sf.net/viewcvs.py/python/python/dist/src/Objects/fileobject.c?rev=2.192&view=log

Could someone please clarify if this is this a bug or not?  I would
like to think that using tell and seek should work reliably enough for
text files.

The reason this is important for me is that I've been generating text
files (with gay abandon) for MayaVi (http://mayavi.sf.net) for three
years now.  I always open the file using 'r'/'w' and not 'rb'/'wb'.
Everything used to work fine.  It never mattered where and how exactly
the files were generated.  Now, I get strange errors since I can no
longer seek into these files reliably.  I could switch to using
'rb'/'wb' universally but all existing files will no longer work
without either requiring a fair bit of effort on my part or on the
part of users changing their saved files.  I am loathe to ask every
user to change all their files and change the newlines.

Thanks.

cheers,
prabhu

p.s. Please CC me in on replies.  I'm not tracking c.l.py.  Thanks.


From vjshield-widgets at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 23 12:34:38 2004
From: vjshield-widgets at yahoo.com (vjshield-widgets at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 09:34:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Executing bytecode from a string.
Message-ID: <20040823163438.25379.qmail@web41314.mail.yahoo.com>

>   I am just writing my Macro/Script in python
>>sourcecode.
>   In the program I'm doing:
>   
>   f = open('segment.py','r')
>   str = f.read()
>   f.close()
>   
>   segment_code = compile(str, '<string>', 'exec')
>   
>   exec(segment_code)

I have the same problem. I'm currently storing the
source in the db. From my application
I get the source code, save it to a local file and
then do the following:
 
        module          =
sys.modules[randomModuleFullPath]
        classObj  = getattr(module, customClassName)
        self.system     = classObj()

The current doucmentation specifiees compile usage as:

compile( file[, cfile[, dfile[, doraise]]]) 

    Compile a source file to byte-code and write out
the byte-code cache file. The source code is
    loaded from the file name file. The byte-code is
written to cfile, which defaults to file + 'c' 
    ('o' if optimization is enabled in the current
interpreter). If dfile is specified, it is used 
    as the name of the source file in error messages
instead of file. If doraise = True, a 
    PyCompileError is raised when an error is
encountered while compiling file. If doraise = False 
    (the default), an error string is written to
sys.stderr, but no exception is raised. 

Is your compile the same function? Does it reutrn the
byte code of the module. If the bytecode contains
a Class definition, how do i instantiate a class
object from it. 

Thanks,

VJ


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Mon Aug  2 17:21:03 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 02 Aug 2004 23:21:03 +0200
Subject: Class optimization at runtime
References: <mailman.1061.1091479321.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<j7WdnXBx-dEhMZPcRVn-hA@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040802nfet@bombur.uio.no>

Larry Bates wrote:

> Kind of hard to tell what you are trying to accomplish
> but I'll try.  Define the class with no if/else statements.
> They only get parsed once.  It is the "class instance"
> creations that may get created millions of times.  They
> will be inside your logical structure.

Yup.

> class Foo:
>     def __init__(self):
>         # do stuff
> 
> class Bar:
>     def __init__(self):
>         # do stuff
> 
> if option: x=Foo()
> else:      x=Bar()

I don't see anything wrong with his original suggestion, provided that
makes the rest of the code simpler:

>> class Foo:
>>     if option:
>>         def __init__:
>>             #do stuff
>>     else:
>>         def __init__:
>>             #do other stuff

That 'if' also gets run only once - when the class is created.

Note that if your class instances only have a few instance variables,
the most effective optimization may be something quite else:  To make
them subclasses of 'object', and define __slots__.  A program of mine
ran in about half the time after doing so.  There are a number of
dangers involved with __slots__, though.  Check the reference manual.

For other optimization hints, see section 1.5 of the Python Programming
FAQ at <http://www.python.org/doc/faq/programming.html>.

-- 
Hallvard


From peter at engcorp.com  Wed Aug  4 22:58:47 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 22:58:47 -0400
Subject: Decorator syntax
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1173.1091670172.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1173.1091670172.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <38ednYT1NLz1P4zcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>

C. Barnes wrote:

> I vote for
> 
> def f(): [synchronized, classmethod]
>   (body of function)
> 
> This is backwards compatible (Python <= 2.3 raise
> SyntaxError), and looks much nicer than @.

I'm nearly certain, without bothering to check, that this
was one of the many proposals already discussed and rejected,
if nothing else for the simple reason that it only works
nicely when you have a short definition such as your example
(with "f()") and not nicely at all with a much longer name
and argument list.  Inevitably you would need to split the
decorator part onto a second line, either requiring a
backslash (ugly) or changing your second comment about it
raising a SyntaxError with previous versions (because it
then matches valid though meaningless code).

Anyway, check the past discussions before going back around
the same arguments yet again.

For the record, the @ syntax is despicable and horribly
un-Pythonic, IMHO, and I really hope never to read code that
uses it. :-(

(And my preferred syntax was "def f() [classmethod]:", FWIW)

-Peter


From scott.b.drummonds.nospam at intel.com  Wed Aug 11 12:45:28 2004
From: scott.b.drummonds.nospam at intel.com (Scott Brady Drummonds)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 09:45:28 -0700
Subject: 'break' Causes Execution of Procedure?
Message-ID: <cfdif9$hhm$1@news01.intel.com>

Hi, everyone,

I have a bug in a script of several hundred lines of code that I cannot
figure out.  I have attempted (unsuccessfully) to duplicate this problem in
a smaller script that I can post here but have been unsuccessful.  As such,
I'm posting code snippets here in the hopes that someone recognizes a very
basic mistake I've made and can straighten me out.

First, the portion of my text file that executes my code:

<quote>
if __name__ == '__main__':
  if len(sys.argv) != 2:
    print('usage: %s <config_file>' % sys.argv[0])
    sys.exit()

  main(sys.argv[1])
</quote>

Here are the first few lines of my 'main' procedure:
<quote>
def main(fileName):
  print('DEBUG: begin main procedure')
  ...
</quote>

And here is the part that is causing problems:
<quote>
    #  'keys' is a list of integers returned from dict.keys()
    for cycle in keys:
      if key in skipList:
        print ('skipping %d/%d' % (cycle, cycleMap[cycle]))
        continue
      try:
        print('DEBUG: advancing both simulators to %d' % cycle)
        procedureThatCouldRaiseEOFError()
      except EOFError:
        print('DEBUG: encountered EOFError; breaking loop')
        break
    print('DEBUG: All cycles processed')
</quote>

Here's what I can't figure out.  I'm seeing the following text generated
during this script's execution:
<quote>
DEBUG: advancing both simulators to 20178
DEBUG: encountered EOFError; breaking loop
DEBUG: begin main procedure
</quote>

How is it possible that the call to 'break' is seemingly being replaced with
a call to 'main'?

Thanks!
Scott

-- 
Remove .nospam from my e-mail address to mail me.





From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Wed Aug 11 11:04:46 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 01:04:46 +1000
Subject: p3p
Message-ID: <1092236686.411a358e04d9c@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

does anyone know of a Python implementation of a P3P proxy?

thanks

cheers
--
Ajay Brar,






----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From nmkolev at uni-bonn.de  Thu Aug  5 08:27:41 2004
From: nmkolev at uni-bonn.de (Nickolay Kolev)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 14:27:41 +0200
Subject: Scope Problem
In-Reply-To: <cet6eh$tvq$1@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <cet6eh$tvq$1@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <cet93t$tig$1@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>

Thanks guys,

I should have seen it myself, it?s stupid enough.

@Irmen: I am implementing the algorithms not for the purpose of using 
them, but for the purpose of learning them. I thinks it is a bit early 
for trying to outsmart the python dev-people. :-)

@Daniel: It should be pretty obvious form my mistake that it is not. A 
real Lisper would never do such a thing. :-)

Thanks again,
Nicky



From nid_oizo at yahoo.com_remove_the_  Wed Aug 25 18:12:41 2004
From: nid_oizo at yahoo.com_remove_the_ (Nicolas Fleury)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 18:12:41 -0400
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <p98Xc.22281$DG.1083273@news20.bellglobal.com>

For.

Regards,
Nicolas Fleury


From M.Waack at gmx.de  Fri Aug 20 16:47:53 2004
From: M.Waack at gmx.de (Mathias Waack)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 22:47:53 +0200
Subject: sub-shell errors
References: <mailman.2040.1093007208.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <qk4iv1-dc7.ln1@valpo.de>

Bigbowser wrote:
> while(1):
> 
> userInput == raw_input('ICE> ')
> cmds = { 'help' : commands.displayHelp, 'version' :
> commands.displayVersion,
> 'authors' : commands.displayAuthors, 'exit' :
> commands.exitIce}
> 
> for cmd, callback in cmds:
> if userInput == cmd:
> callback()

You mean

        for cmd, callback in cmds.items()

?

Or much shorter: 

        cmds[cmd]()

Mathias


From noone at here.com  Mon Aug 16 09:48:21 2004
From: noone at here.com (M. Clift)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:48:21 +0100
Subject: random / lists
References: <cfl5d1$f8p$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<zEDTc.210024$OB3.89400@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
	<cformj$vso$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<7xr7q7edg0.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <cfqdtk$ijc$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>

Hi Paul,

No, not homework, I'm a bit old for that :  ) It's an idea for a simple
decision maker.

Malcolm




From po-yung.liu at pandora.be  Mon Aug 16 20:29:56 2004
From: po-yung.liu at pandora.be (Vent d'Est - East Wind)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 00:29:56 GMT
Subject: Python / scheme implement 
Message-ID: <8kcUc.216223$pC2.10693727@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

Can somebody tell me what s exactly the difference beetween scheme and 
python languages

i m thiking to learn one of them but i m not sure wich one

somebody told me python is better and have much library
somebody told me scheme is much smarter and have nice structure

i also see a project about a scheme/python implementation
here is the url
http://plt-spy.sourceforge.net/home.html
i m not sure what s really but seems cool if someone know more about it 
  or have some concrete exemple  it can be more understable

i m not sure what to do
ps i want programming some open source soft for network with gui


thankx a lot

east wind


From martindemello at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  3 01:56:52 2004
From: martindemello at yahoo.com (Martin DeMello)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 05:56:52 GMT
Subject: Newbie: pywin problem
References: <rCrPc.154159$Mr4.50525@pd7tw1no>
	<1091491406.159993@news.commspeed.net>
Message-ID: <EOFPc.157818$Mr4.83309@pd7tw1no>

Tom B. <sbabbitt at commspeed.net> wrote:
> 
> I would try wxPython at http://wxpython.org/  they have a wrapper for
> scintilla and are it is much more Pythonic.

I know :-/ I got a wxPython example up and running in under half an
hour, but I'm hoping to integrate this with a C++/MFC app and have the
python windows open within the main C++ app (MDI style).

> You probably need to do a
> 
> somename = view.CreateWindow(fr)
> somename.Show(1)
> 
> to get your current app to work, but Win32Ui is kinda funny.

Nope, didn't work either, and 'somename' appears to be null

martin


From kjetilho at ifi.uio.no  Fri Aug 27 21:21:36 2004
From: kjetilho at ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Torgrim Homme)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 03:21:36 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed204082708585d615e54@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<e69d3ed204082708585d615e54@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1093656096.749.69.camel@chico.njus.no>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote:
> > what do you think?  should I write a PEP?
> 
> I've changed my mind. You should indeed write a PEP. I strongly
> suggest you adopt the spirit of PEP-666 in doing this, as a PEP on
> braces will get the same response. I'd even suggest PEP 667 (The
> Neighbour of the Beast) as the PEP number.

interesting, can I choose the number?  (btw, I always thought 668 was
the neighbour of the beast.)

I'll write a PEP, but it will have to wait until next week.  thank you
for your feedback!
-- 
Kjetil T.



From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Thu Aug  5 15:58:56 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 15:58:56 -0400
Subject: Decorator syntax
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1226.1091731685.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA1A@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>
	<mailman.1226.1091731685.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bLWdnTsjYbTiDI_cRVn-vg@giganews.com>

Terry Reedy wrote:

> Also, some of the major proponents want parameterized decorators and
> multiple decorators, not just a different position for staticmethod and
> classmethod.  So

And that's the problem. The example and motivation in PEP318 are both
vague and misleading. The disagreement is caused by trying to
achieve a lot of different things with one feature.

Thus the solution that is emerging is to cram everything in
front of the function definition.

Istvan.



From http  Tue Aug 24 21:12:06 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 18:12:06 -0700
Subject: Book Recommendation
References: <pan.2004.08.24.19.37.35.678632@scrpy.org>
Message-ID: <7x7jro9g2h.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Anthony Greene <sysfault at scrpy.org> writes:
> I'm new to programming entirely, and I'm simply looking for some insight,
> can you guys recommend some introductory documentation for me to read, and
> what I read, and, do concurrently why reading the primary "book" ou guys
> recommend. Thanks, and any advice is great appreciated.

Kind of hard to say.  Depends on your general experience level, e.g.
how much math do you know?  Some other people have suggested good
books about Python, but those don't say so much about programming in
general.  For that, you may need to look to other kinds of books.  I
really liked "Software Tools", by Kernighan and Plauger, but it's
about a billion years out of date by now.


From ville at spammers.com  Fri Aug 20 10:45:33 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 17:45:33 +0300
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl>
	<om2ci0hbvtsvaifhfpgb3lg5ndr698h61h@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <du7isbdj2b6.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Christos" == TZOTZIOY  <Christos> writes:

    Christos> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:23:16 +0200, rumours say that
    Christos> Gerrit Muller <gerrit.muller at embeddedsystems.nl> might
    Christos> have written:

    >> The most 
    >> positive experiences were Sinclair QL-basic, [snip]

    Christos> I'll drink to that!

Apparently there is some good karma in Sinclair QL - Linus also used
to hack on it.

I had MSX (SVI-728), which probably steered me more towards coding
than C64 would have (most friends had one of those, along with 500+
games ;-) - it had a decent basic (MS basic) from Microsoft's pre-evil
era.

Ah, even seeing the SVI-728 acronym puts me on the nostalgy train...

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu  Sun Aug 22 19:05:42 2004
From: davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu (David Pokorny)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 16:05:42 -0700
Subject: Python is to C as letters are to words.
References: <b14bfabe.0408221055.4f2dc1e7@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <ntSdnav9cLW0urTcRVn-tg@lmi.net>

Yes! I totally agree. One of Python's hats is "the ultimate C scripting
language."
On this note, has anyone written something along the lines of "Companion to
the C Python implementation"? Source code comments are great, but there is
so much more that one could say about the theory, big ideas, the creative
solutions that people came up with, etc...

David




From tom at scoosh.com  Wed Aug 18 17:52:04 2004
From: tom at scoosh.com (tom at scoosh.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 22:52:04 +0100
Subject: test please ignire
Message-ID: <cg0j2a$7rj$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>





From psXdaXsilva at esotericaX.ptX  Fri Aug 13 21:00:35 2004
From: psXdaXsilva at esotericaX.ptX (Paulo da Silva)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 02:00:35 +0100
Subject: A problem with GzipFile (BUG?)
Message-ID: <1092445509.64317@jubilee.esoterica.pt>

Hi.

I am writing to a file mixing "Normal" with gziped Data.
For that I am using GzipFile. For ex. 1st I write some data (A),
then I open a GzipFile and write let's say N (uncompressed) bytes (B). 
Then I close GzipFile, write some more data (C) and close the file.
Unfortunately, when reading the the N compressed bytes (B) and
closing GzipFile, I didn't *always* get correctly positioned at
the beginning of (C)! Is this a bug? Is there a way to exhaust
all the bytes written to GzipFile so that the file pointer *always*
point to beginning of (C)?

Most of times this works fine, but not always!

Thanks for any help.


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Fri Aug  6 18:49:24 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 18:49:24 -0400
Subject: PEP 263 status check
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com>
	<4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de><10h5hgvpafm8a64@news.supernews.com>
	<41133C76.8040302@v.loewis.de><10h6rklt3fa1690@news.supernews.com>
	<41137799.70808@v.loewis.de><10h724r20kkeqb2@news.supernews.com>
	<4113D8DF.8080106@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <cf11tl$uod$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote in message
news:4113D8DF.8080106 at v.loewis.de...
> If you think that only Unicode literals and comments should be
> allowed to contain non-ASCII, I disagree: At some point, I'd
> like to propose support for non-ASCII in identifiers. This would
> allow people to make identifiers that represent words from their
> native language, which is helpful for people who don't speak
> English well.

Off the main topic of this thread, but...

While sympathizing with this notion, I have hitherto opposed it on the
basis that this would lead to code that could only be read by people within
each language group.  But, rereading your idea, I realize that this
objection would be overcome by a reader that displayed for each Unicode
char (codepoint?) not its native glyph but a roman transliteration.  As far
as I know, such tranliterations, more or less standardized, exist at least
for all major alphabets and syllable systems.  Indeed, I would find
Japanese code displayed as

for sushi in michiro.readlines():
  print fuji(sushi)

clearer than 'English' code using identifiers like Q8zB2_0Ol1!

If the Unicode group does not distribute a master roman tranliteration
table at least for alphabetic symbols, I would consider it a lack that
hinders adoption of Unicode.

Some writing systems also have different number digits, which could also be
used natively and tranliterated.  A Unicode Python could also use a set of
user codepoints as an alternate coding of keywords for almost complete
nativification.  I believe the math symbols are pretty universal (but could
be educated if not).

Terry J. Reedy





From dale at riverhall_nospam_.co.uk  Thu Aug 26 09:54:54 2004
From: dale at riverhall_nospam_.co.uk (Dale Strickland-Clark)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:54:54 +0100
Subject: Fun transformation problem
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.26.13.24.26.521173@riverhall_nospam_.co.uk>

A guy in the office has come up with this interesting transformation
problem. We have a solution but I'm sure there's a neater, more 'pythonic' 
approach.

I thought this might appeal to some here:

I want a function to convert a list of tuples into a hierarchy of
dictionaries. ?Let me first demonstrate with an example:

>>> lstA = [(1, 2, 3), (1, 3, 4), (2, 5, 6)]
>>> dctA = fncA(lstA)
>>> print dctA
{1: {2: 3, 3: 4}, 2: {5: 6}}
>>>

I essentially want the definition to fncA. ?Here is another example:

>>> lstA = [(1, 2, 3, 4) ,(3, 4, 5, 6), (3, 4, 6, 7), (3, 4, 6, 8), (3, 4,
5, 1), (3, 4, 7, 9)]
>>> dctA = fncA(lstA)
>>> print dctA
{1: {2: {3: 4}}, 3: {4: {5: 1, 6: 8, 7: 9}}}
>>>

Each tuple in the original list must be unique after the last value is
excluded (since these values are used to form the "hierarchical key".

I have written a function, which seems to work but looks very cumbersome.
Could anyone point me to a simpler solution?



Dale Strickland-Clark
Riverhall Systems


From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Sat Aug  7 18:39:26 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 18:39:26 -0400
Subject: Image manipulation library under a GPL-compatible license?
Message-ID: <2nl3suF1vntdU1@uni-berlin.de>

I need to do some simple image editing (pretty much just scaling) in a 
GPLed program. Unfortunatly, both of the Python libraries for image 
editing that I found (gdmodule and PIL) are under the GPL-incompatible 
original BSD license. Is there another library under a friendlier library?


From dippyd at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 12 21:01:08 2004
From: dippyd at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:01:08 +1000
Subject: Rather than decorators, how about sections?
References: <mailman.1509.1092238688.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <411C12D4.7010400@yahoo.com>

Paul Morrow wrote:

>     class Foo(object):
>         staticmethods:
>             def baz(a,b):
>                 print "I'm a static method."
>             def bez(c,d):
>                 print "I'm a static method too."
> 
>         classmethods:
>             def biz(klass):
>                 print "I'm a class method."
> 
> 
>         def __init__(self):
>             print "We all know what I am."

I don't.

Is there a simple primer for static and class methods 
and decorators and such that you can recommend?

I've looked at the URL you gave with the Memoize class 
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/PythonDecoratorLibrary, 
but it assumes you already know what decorators are.



Then, later, Paul Morrow wrote:

 > Fine, instead of Foo (the name of the class), use 
the > word klass.  It's a popular name for the first
 > parameter of a class method.

"klass" isn't a word. It is a twee deliberate 
mispelling of a word.

It also runs the risk of causing confusion when code is 
spoken aloud (eg in actual human-to-human communication 
using alternating high and low pressure atmospheric 
waves to deliver packets of information, or in text 
readers for the blind).

It is bad enough when coders (including myself) choose 
to deliberately mispell words, but to make it required 
is unforgivable.


-- 
Steven.
Any mispellings in the above post are deliberate, and 
are there to show the reader wonderful new ways of 
spelling old words.




From mwh at python.net  Fri Aug  6 09:56:18 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 13:56:18 GMT
Subject: Getting around the GIL with POSH
References: <2nhgq0Fvu3qU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <m34qngs73y.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Jon Perez <jbperez808 at wahoo.com> writes:

> Is anyone out there using POSH and is it reliable enough for
> production use?  Any plans to incorporate it into the Python
> distribution?

Well, I think it currently only works on x86, which is a bit of a
bind (I may be out of date).

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  ... so the notion that it is meaningful to pass pointers to memory
  objects into which any random function may write random values
  without having a clue where they point, has _not_ been debunked as
  the sheer idiocy it really is.        -- Erik Naggum, comp.lang.lisp


From michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk  Mon Aug 23 07:18:57 2004
From: michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk (Michael Sparks)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:18:57 +0100
Subject: Python is to C as letters are to words.
References: <b14bfabe.0408221055.4f2dc1e7@posting.google.com>
	<ntSdnav9cLW0urTcRVn-tg@lmi.net>
Message-ID: <cgck9q$3an$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>

David Pokorny wrote:
...
> On this note, has anyone written something along the lines of
> "Companion to the C Python implementation"?

Certainly would've helped at the weekend... ;-)


Michael.
-- 
Michael.Sparks at rd.bbc.co.uk    
British Broadcasting Corporation, Research and Development
Kingswood Warren, Surrey KT20 6NP

This message (and any attachments) may contain personal views
which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.




From greg.lindstrom at novasyshealth.com  Tue Aug 10 12:43:33 2004
From: greg.lindstrom at novasyshealth.com (Greg Lindstrom)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 11:43:33 -0500
Subject: pyDAV
Message-ID: <004901c47ef9$2d348670$054b12ac@D18SYX41>

I am in need of retrieving files from a host running DAV and would like to
use the pyDAV library, but can not find any documentation on how to use it.
Can anyone point me to some examples, or show me the steps required to
retrieve a file using pyDAV?

Thanks!
--greg

Greg Lindstrom                                         (501) 975-4859
NovaSys Health                  greg.lindstrom at novasyshealth.com

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams"  W.W.




From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 04:35:14 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:35:14 +0200
Subject: A question??
References: <938a4680.0408252138.1580ac93@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1gj4fvw.svtd4815ar727N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Ishwar Rattan <rattan at cps.cmich.edu> wrote:

> I thought that Python has no concept of reference/pointer
> (probably incorrect assumption). 

No pointers, but any name you use, any slot in a list, any key or value
slot in a dict, etc, IS a reference.  Nothing to do with your question
anyway.

> def run(program, *args):
>     pid = os.fork()
>     if not pid:
>          os.execvp(program, (program,)+args)
> 
> and call to run as
> 
> run("pyhton", "a.py")
> 
> What is the interpretation of *args (in def run(..)?

It is: 'run' takes any number of positional arguments after the ones
specified so far.  Python collects them all into a tuple and your code
refers to that tuple with the name 'args'.

> Looks like a reference to me, so, how does one decide when to use
> a reference or not?

'args' is a reference just like any other name is.

> Any pointers to info will be appreciated.

"Python in a Nutshell", among other reference works, covers argument
passing and such subjects quite well, I think;-).


Alex


From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 28 13:24:26 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:24:26 -0500
Subject: Dynamic languages
In-Reply-To: <1093650026.763899@news.commspeed.net>
References: <278de0e.0408271349.26762174@posting.google.com>
	<1093650026.763899@news.commspeed.net>
Message-ID: <rc3Yc.3346$MR2.22572@news1.mts.net>

Tom B. wrote:
> I doubt that this is what they mean but a dynamic language is a language
> that is still evolving (Python) as opposed to a dead language (COBOL).
During my "education" at my school of unfortunate choice I had to learn 
the script of the damned... sorry, COBOL.  I learned that it has indeed 
gone through some developments in the past years ie COBOL now is object 
oriented COBOL.

It *should* be dead though, but companies don't want to develope any new 
systems.  So, they fund a programming program at some local college at 
"suggest" that they include it so that they have a work force availible 
to make changes to there system.

That of course doesn't mean that this certain company's COBOL programmer 
lasts on average < 6 months.  Which certainly is the case.  Quite 
frankly I don't know how they last so long.


From fumanchu at amor.org  Sat Aug 21 02:28:20 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 23:28:20 -0700
Subject: Overriding logical operators?
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E1C@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Andrew Durdin wrote:
> In Python, you can override the behaviour of most operators for a
> class, by defining __add__, __gt__, and the other special object
> methods.
> 
> I noticed that, although there are special methods for most operators,
> they are conspicuously absent for the logical "or" and "and". I'm
> guessing that the reason for this is that these operators
> short-circuit if their first operand answers the whole question?
> 
> Would it be possible to allow overriding the logical operators, with
> the caveat that overriding it would prevent short-circuiting?

This has come up before--in particular, I think Greg Ewing was taking a
stab at it last. Google is your friend. Anything's possible if you're
willing to write it. ;)

The first barrier is that 'or' and 'and' get compiled down to jump
codes, as opposed to operations:

>>> dis.dis(lambda x: (x + 3) or (x - 5))
  1           0 LOAD_FAST                0 (x)
              3 LOAD_CONST               1 (3)
              6 BINARY_ADD          
              7 JUMP_IF_TRUE             8 (to 18)
             10 POP_TOP             
             11 LOAD_FAST                0 (x)
             14 LOAD_CONST               2 (5)
             17 BINARY_SUBTRACT     
        >>   18 RETURN_VALUE        

...so you'd be hacking a completely different section of the compiler to
enable such overriding.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Aug  2 21:10:33 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 21:10:33 -0400
Subject: How to clear previous console output?
References: <cem5jm$pcs@odbk17.prod.google.com> <cem9bk$200$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <cemomb$oph$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Mike Rovner" <mike at nospam.com> wrote in message
news:cem9bk$200$1 at sea.gmane.org...
> (For console output) Use \r.
>
> Example:
>
> for i in range(100):
>    print '%s\r' % ' '*20, # clean up row
>    print '%d%%' % i, # note ending with comma
> print
>
> Note that it works only in real console window, not in simulated one
(like
> in WinIDE).
> That is cross-platform.

If you do not want to erase everything, \10 in string inserts backspace
character, but blanking and rewriting everything may be easier.

tjr





From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Mon Aug 30 20:57:52 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 20:57:52 -0400
Subject: initializing mutable class attributes
References: <J4zYc.102357$UTP.98636@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gjc8cs.sqvo1v1fhabdjN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<eTHYc.205$yqJ1.68@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<mailman.2624.1093889688.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ch0ieg$um$1@panix2.panix.com>

In article <mailman.2624.1093889688.5135.python-list at python.org>,
Shalabh Chaturvedi  <shalabh at cafepy.com> wrote:
>
>In Python you either have an __init__ or you don't. There is no 'default 
>constructor' - or if there is, it does nothing. 

Actually, that's not quite true.  Python does indeed have a default
constructor that returns the object.  This isn't particularly visible
from classic classes because there's no way to get access to a
constructor.  New-style classes make the constructor available through
__new__().  __init__() is an initializer.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 18:30:57 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: 5 Aug 2004 15:30:57 -0700
Subject: Confused about pep 318
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <d11dcfba.0408051430.35950e05@posting.google.com>

steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard) wrote in message news:<d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d at posting.google.com>...
> 
> Not a big fan of this syntax -- no intuitive reason why @ would mean
> decorator -- but I presume this has already been complained about... 
> Could someone direct me to the discussions about this?  I'd like to
> see why it was the eventual favored syntax...
> 

So, I did my homework and read way too much python-dev for a mere
mortal, and found a good synopsis that is worth looking at if you
haven't already:
    http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators
It gives a bunch of the different considered syntaxes, pros and cons,
etc.

I have to say, after reading the archives and the wiki, I like @ a
little bit more.  The other major frontrunners I saw were a
list-before-def syntax and a function-call-before-def syntax.  Both of
these have the major flaw that they take currently valid Python code
and give it a different meaning.  I don't like that -- it means I have
to relearn part of Python semantics.  Even the list-after-def syntax,
which doesn't introduce semantics changes, isn't substantially clearer
to me as a decorator than @ is -- why is a list before the : a list of
decorators?  Seems almost as arbitrary as @.

What would have seemed most Pythonic to me is a new keyword -- like
was done for 'yield' -- but that seems to have been voted down. 
(Guido especially dislikes the use of 'as' for these purposes.)  I'd
still prefer a new keyword over @, but if a new keyword is out of the
question, I'll take @ over any syntaxes that change Python's current
semantics, and I'll take an implemented and working @ over an as-yet
unimplemented list-after-def syntax.

Steve


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug  6 12:50:19 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 12:50:19 -0400
Subject: [Newby question] List comprehension
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.06.16.06.16.171223@xs4all.nl>
References: <mailman.1274.1091799582.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<pan.2004.08.06.13.56.01.249870@xs4all.nl>
	<HBF.20040806weia@bombur.uio.no>
	<ecCdnfd3S9s5OI7cRVn-tA@powergate.ca>
	<pan.2004.08.06.16.06.16.171223@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <LO-dnfLNMopRK47cRVn-uw@powergate.ca>

Eelco Hoekema wrote:

> Peter Hansen schreef:
>>List comprehensions may be faster, but that is never a valid reason,
>>in isolation, for choosing one construct over another.
> 
>>If (a) list comprehensions can't do this, or (b) one has to jump
>>through hoops and make the construct completely unreadable to make
>>it work, then list comprehensions are completely unsuited to the
>>task at hand.
> 
>>A loop, on the other hand, works just fine and is very readable.
>>Use a loop.
> 
> I'm a bit puzzled. Are you saying one should never use a list
> comprehension? Or are you just referring to this specific problem, where i
> would have to cheat in order to get the things done in one single list
> comprehension?

Definitely referring only to cases such as this one, where you
have to "cheat".  The fact that it's not straightforward to do
should immediately lead someone in the direction of finding the
more obvious and simple approach.  In this case, that's a loop.

(Someone may well find an elegant way to do it with a nice
concise list comprehension.  Such a way may well become an
accepted idiom at some point in the future.  Neither of these
points has any bearing on the fact that most of us shouldn't
spend time trying to shoehorn overly complicated structures into
constructs that can't easily handle them.)

I do use list comprehensions myself.  Never (yet) for reasons
of performance, and never for complicated ones because I always
find the loop variant to be more readable once they've grown
beyond the relatively simple ones like this:

  [(foo, bar(foo)) for foo in someList if foo is not a baz]

-Peter


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Fri Aug  6 17:10:44 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 06 Aug 2004 23:10:44 +0200
Subject: PEP 263 status check
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com> <4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de>
	<10h5hgvpafm8a64@news.supernews.com> <41133C76.8040302@v.loewis.de>
	<10h6rklt3fa1690@news.supernews.com> <41137799.70808@v.loewis.de>
	<10h724r20kkeqb2@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040806qchc@bombur.uio.no>

An addition to Martin's reply:

John Roth wrote:
>"Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote in message
>news:41137799.70808 at v.loewis.de...
>>John Roth wrote:
>>
>> To be more specific: In an UTF-8 source file, doing
>>
>> print "?" == "\xc3\xb6"
>> print "?"[0] == "\xc3"
>>
>> would print two times "True", and len("?") is 2.
>> OTOH, len(u"?")==1.
>>
>>> The point of this is that I don't think that either behavior
>>> is what one would expect. It's also an open invitation
>>> for someone to make an unchecked mistake! I think this
>>> may be Hallvard's underlying issue in the other thread.
>>
>> What would you expect instead? Do you think your expectation
>> is implementable?
> 
> I'd expect that the compiler would reject anything that
> wasn't either in the 7-bit ascii subset, or else defined
> with a hex escape.

Then you should also expect a lot of people to move to
another language - one whose designers live in the real
world instead of your Utopian Unicode world.

> The reason for this is simply that wanting to put characters
> outside of the 7-bit ascii subset into a byte character string
> isn't portable.

Unicode isn't portable either.
Try to output a Unicode string to a device (e.g. your terminal)
whose character encoding is not known to the program.
The program will fail, or just output the raw utf-8 string or
something, or just guess some character set the program's author
is fond of.

For that matter, tell me why my programs should spend any time
on converting between UTF-8 and the character set the
application actually works with just because you are fond of
Unicode.  That might be a lot more time than just the time spent
parsing the program.  Or tell me why I should spell quite normal
text strings with hex escaping or something, if that's what you
mean.

And tell me why I shouldn't be allowed to work easily with raw
UTF-8 strings, if I do use coding:utf-8.

-- 
Hallvard


From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 19 07:43:31 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:43:31 -0400
Subject: Py2Exe PROBLEM
In-Reply-To: <81a41dd.0408190023.44d34c44@posting.google.com>
References: <81a41dd.0408190023.44d34c44@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <2tGdncgUvpKRD7ncRVn-oQ@powergate.ca>

Lad wrote:

> I try to make an exe file from my script with help of Py2exe but I am
> not successfull.
...
> When compilation finishes I get:
> 
> The following modules appear to be missing
> ['blackbox', 'timing', 'rgs.py']
> 
> Can you please help me how to solve the problem?

If you explain what problem you are actually having.

Are you assuming simply because of that warning message that
it didn't work?  What happens when you try to run the resulting
.exe file?

Note that py2exe will sometimes complain about modules that
are not actually required for the program to run.

Also please explain what "blackbox" and "timing" are, if
they are part of the problem.

Finally (and this might be the whole problem), you seem
to be using "import rgs.py" when you really meant to use
just "import rgs".  You don't import Python modules using
the full filename of the source file...

-Peter


From flupke at nonexistingdomain.com  Thu Aug 19 05:53:41 2004
From: flupke at nonexistingdomain.com (flupke)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:53:41 GMT
Subject: anonymous function?
In-Reply-To: <efHUc.217674$UI5.10803319@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
References: <efHUc.217674$UI5.10803319@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
Message-ID: <FM_Uc.218813$vW6.10866726@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

Thanks Richie and Benjamin,

that solved the error i got.
(timer is not yet working correctly but that's for another
thread :) )


From dostatnig at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 10 16:37:41 2004
From: dostatnig at yahoo.com (Grzegorz Dostatni)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:37:41 -0600
Subject: remaining decorator syntax options
References: <d11dcfba.0408101133.4943f06b@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <opsci983tbyendvp@news.srv.ualberta.ca>


Keyword. Definitely keyword.

One of the great stong points of python (for me at least) is that it uses 
next to no special symbols. Now, I could go on and say how ugly I find 
code that uses these kinds of symbols. I've been doing python programming 
for about 5 years. I've done ruby for the last two years and I still find 
those @, @@ and $ to be both ugly and annoying to write. Whenever I am 
forced to include a special symbol, I pretty much stop and rever to 
"hunting and pecking".

By comparison, writing python code is not much more difficult than writing 
english text. (Although it requires far more concentration). Besides, 
typing speed is not an issue in programming. Saving 4 keystrokes by going 
@foo instead of self.foo is not going to make a difference. What makes 
python a rapid development language is documentation, powerful base data 
types and the ability to read other people's code. Most of the time ;-)

At the end of the day, I would look for precedents:

Python:		c/c++		Ruby
and			&		and
or			|		or
self.foo				@foo
global				$foo

I am aware of the symbols python uses (#, %, **, &, |). With the exception 
of #, I generally find a way to avoid them.

Greg



On 10 Aug 2004 12:33:36 -0700, Steven Bethard <steven.bethard at gmail.com> 
wrote:

> So I'd suggest that we put all our effort into the indicator
> discussions.  If you have a good argument for why a keyword is better
> than a symbol, or why a symbol is better than a keyword, please voice
> them now.  And remember that 'because it's prettier' or 'because it's
> uglier' are not aguments GvR will consider.  We need strong arguments,
> that argue on the basis of readability or learnability or
> maintainability, etc.



From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 09:40:40 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:40:40 +0200
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
	<dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
	<aN5Xc.205341$M95.157379@pd7tw1no>
	<1gj4fb5.607xsc51izh8N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xllg25lkt.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <1gj4u3a.12ttba9fynd6uN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:

> aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:
> > There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.
> > 
> > Not leaving stylistic choice (which would lead to more than one obvious
> > way to do it) is quite consonant with the Zen of Python.
> 
> Well, what you're left with is that doing it the one obvious way
> doesn't work, and you have to do it in some contorted way instead.

If somelist.sort() returned the list there could not possibly be one
obvious way to do it, since both

print somelist.sort()

and

somelist.sort()
print somelist

would be ways to do it, both pretty obvious to different people.  [[The
introduction of 'sorted' will muddy 'obviousness' for some, but IMHO it
just changes what the one obvious way is: if you do want an inplace
sort, then somelist.sort(), otherwise then sorted(somelist) when you do
not want to alter somelist in place.]]


Alex


From martin at v.loewis.de  Tue Aug  3 08:02:52 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 14:02:52 +0200
Subject: More charset troubles (Re: Codecs for ISO 8859-11 (Thai) and
 8859-16 (Romanian))
In-Reply-To: <efabc1be.0408030017.7b43c479@posting.google.com>
References: <efabc1be.0407270310.40dbd80@posting.google.com>
	<biteg0dko3sbp7el7etlhtm7djonnf7etq@4ax.com>
	<efabc1be.0407311057.68cdbc29@posting.google.com>
	<410c2827$0$24830$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<efabc1be.0408010830.2128cf68@posting.google.com>
	<410D7AB5.9040100@v.loewis.de>
	<efabc1be.0408020219.11dcf0d7@posting.google.com>
	<410E4B49.7030805@v.loewis.de>
	<efabc1be.0408030017.7b43c479@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <410F7EEC.5040104@v.loewis.de>

Peter Jacobi wrote:
> Looking around:
> - the RFC references a fixed year old version
> - Unicode mapping files and libiconv track the newest version
> - IBM ICU4C provides all versions
> - Python (not by planning, I assume) has a "middle" version with
> some features of the old mapping table (no currency signs) and some
> features of the new (0xA1=0x2018, 0xA2=0x2019)

Indeed. Adding new codecs is not a matter of just compiling a few files
that somebody else has produced, but requires a lot of expertise.
Therefore, I would have preferred if Python would not have included any
codecs, but relied on the codecs that come with the platform (e.g. iconv
on Unix, IE DLLs on Windows).

Now, things came out differently, and we are now in charge of
maintaining what we got. This requires great care, and expert volunteers
are always welcome. Unfortunately, in the Unicode/character sets/l10n
world, there is no one true way, so experts need to stand up and voice
their opinion, hoping that contributors become atleast aware of the
issues.

In the specific case of ISO-8859-7, I was until just now unaware of the
issue - I would not have guessed that ISO dared to ever change a part
of 8859. If this is ever going to be changed, I would suggest the 
following approach:
- provide two encodings: ISO-8859-7:1987, and ISO-8859-7:2003. Without
   checking, I would hope that the version in RFC 1345 is identical with
   8859-7:1987
- Make ISO-8859-7 an alias for ISO-8859-7:1987
Of course, somebody should really talk to IANA and come up with
preferred MIME name. Apparently, ISO-8859-7-EURO and ISO-8859-7-2003
have been proposed.

Regards,
Martin


From mcfletch at rogers.com  Thu Aug 12 02:32:05 2004
From: mcfletch at rogers.com (Mike C. Fletcher)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 02:32:05 -0400
Subject: Arranging a dependency tree
In-Reply-To: <wPDSc.5730$Ub3.3204@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>
References: <6ccff37a.0408111831.6eb25a4e@posting.google.com>
	<wPDSc.5730$Ub3.3204@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <411B0EE5.3080308@rogers.com>

Bryan Olson wrote:
...

> If you want an ordering in which each module follows the
> modules on which it depends, you want a 'topological sort' based
> on the depends relation.

There's a module here:
    http://www.vrplumber.com/programming/
which provides two implementations of topological sorting in Python.  
With that, should be a trivial task to do a dependency sort on the OP's 
graph.

HTH,
Mike

________________________________________________
  Mike C. Fletcher
  Designer, VR Plumber, Coder
  http://www.vrplumber.com
  http://blog.vrplumber.com



From chris.cavalaria at free.fr  Wed Aug 11 14:55:25 2004
From: chris.cavalaria at free.fr (Christophe Cavalaria)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 20:55:25 +0200
Subject: Rather than decorators, how about sections?
References: <cfdegs$5oo$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<1C74C038-EBB6-11D8-8889-000A95857E5C@eischet.com>
	<mailman.1516.1092244260.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <411a6b9d$0$13688$636a15ce@news.free.fr>

Paul Morrow wrote:

>> class Foo(object):
>>     def spam(Foo):
>>         print "Class Method"

What is that ? It's ugly, it's a name alias and it'll be incredibly
confusing when classmethods are inherited, which is exactly the most common
use case for classmethods.

> I like it!  It's simple, clear, ... Why isn't this the hands-down best
> solution? Why do we want to be more verbose than necessary?

It isn't a solution. It only "resolves" the problem for staticmethod and
classmethod which are only a very small part of what we do/want to do with
decorators.

> I wonder if there are people out there who've chosen something other
> than *self* for the 1st arg (shame on them if they did! <grin>) who's
> code this would break.  I've never understood why we didn't require that
> it be called self in the first place --- why give them more than one way
> to do *that*?

Well, it might seem strange but :
- It will break a lot of code which use a name different than self for the
first argument
- It'll break all existing classmethods
- It'll break code that binds arbitrary functions as a member function. You
can't do things like that anymore :

>>> def f(s):
>>>     print "Hi, I'm function f"
>>> class Klass:
>>>     doIt = f
>>> Klass().doIt()



From fumanchu at amor.org  Tue Aug 24 21:58:56 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:58:56 -0700
Subject: python cgi speedup on iis
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E63@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Charlie Taylor wrote:
> >> I'm looking for advice on how to speed up python cgi on 
> Windows IIS ...
> 
> Gilles Lenfant wrote:
> >Use the excellent pywin32
> >http://sourceforge.net/projects/pywin32
> >Look at the help in the "ASP and Python" section that shows 
> how to register
> >Python as ASP engine...
> 
> pywin32 ASP turned out to be EXACTLY what I needed.
> 
> It took very little effort to convert my CGI scripts, and the 
> performance
> boost was terrific.
> 
> There are a few nagging issues regarding the reload of 
> modified modules.
> The ASP engine often overlooks changed pyc files and 
> therefore does not
> reload the modified modules (this requires IIS restarts), 
> however, it is
> very good at detecting changes to the ASP files themselves.  
> I've taken to
> debugging imported modules via CGI scripts to get around 
> having to restart
> IIS.

I ended up writing a reload tool for admins to use from the webapp
itself. Lots of hooks here to functions you never heard of, but it
should give you the idea:

def reimport(UI):
    """Reload the requested module.
    
    reload = module name
    """
    
    if not UI.user in UI.application.superusers:
        raise dejavu.AccessDeniedError
    
    redir = html.RedirectPage(UI.application)
    UI.write(redir.top(u'Reloading...'))
    
    # Locate the requested module.
    moduleName = UI.requestParams.get(u'module', u'')
    try:
        reqModule = sys.modules[moduleName]
    except KeyError:
        raise StandardError(u"Module '%s' could not be found." %
moduleName)
    reload(reqModule)
    
    UI.write(redir.bottom(UI.root() + u'/admin.htm'))


HTH,


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 00:48:10 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 00:48:10 -0400
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
In-Reply-To: <5hbvh0hnngn8sotqkgav3o1mvs61n039e5@4ax.com>
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<56cfb0e3.0408142004.511a8a8e@posting.google.com>
	<5hbvh0hnngn8sotqkgav3o1mvs61n039e5@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <LIqdndjJz9MWob3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>

Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:

> 	Missed one variant <G>... Since the brackets are, in my mind,
> noise, I prefer to keep /them/ aligned (easiest means of drawing lines
> on a listing...
> 
> if (condition)
> {
> 	stmt-1
> 	stmt-2
> }
> else
> {
> 	stmt-3
> 	stmt-4
> }

Missed another!  (The best! ;-)

if (condition)
     {
     stmt-1;
     stmt-2;
     }
else
     {
     stmt-3;
     stmt-4;
     }

After all, the braces are basically part of the blocks, so they
really should be indented the same as the statements in the
blocks.  Furthermore this way it's easier to scan down to find
the else or subsequent code.  Basically, this way the braces
don't really get in the way at all, except for using up some
vertical space.

-indentation-wars-backwards-r-us-ly y'rs,
  Peter


From meastwood at sibelius.com  Tue Aug 31 12:54:51 2004
From: meastwood at sibelius.com (Michael Eastwood)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 16:54:51 -0000
Subject: Bundles on Mac OS X
Message-ID: <006201c48f7b$3bd28be0$300110ac@aulis>

Hi,

Does anybody know how to copy a bundle across a network so it will run successfully on the destination machine?  At the moment I am using macostools.copytree which appears to copy the entire bundle across correctly, but when I try and run it, it does absolutely nothing.

I guess I could probably use the Carbon library, but as it isn't documented I don't know where to start!

Any help would me much appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Michael
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From shane.holloway at ieee.org  Sun Aug 22 19:28:33 2004
From: shane.holloway at ieee.org (Shane Holloway (IEEE))
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 17:28:33 -0600
Subject: Rita Sue and Bob too
In-Reply-To: <27a5ac50.0408200749.a1fd32f@posting.google.com>
References: <cg3ksb$bg5$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<27a5ac50.0408200749.a1fd32f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <41292C21.3090107@ieee.org>

> You can do it with list List Comprehensions:
> 
> BigList = ['Jean', 'Eric', 'Remy', 'Anne', 'Denis', 'Alain', 'Armel',
> 'Louis']
> SmallList = ['Eric', 'Denis', 'Georges', 'Jean']
> 
> if ( [x for x in SmallList if x in BigList] == SmallList ):
>    print "They were found"
> else:
>    print "They are not in list"
> 
> 
> [x for x in SmallList if x in BigList] evaluates to a list with common
> elements of SmallList and BigList

A little change:

   Difference = [x for x in SmallList if x not in BigList]
   if not Difference:
     print "They were found"
   else:
     print Difference, "were not found in the list"




From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 07:52:27 2004
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 04:52:27 -0700
Subject: ClientCookie
References: <6f402501.0408110018.1e4e5ca8@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <6f402501.0408120352.680496bc@posting.google.com>

fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord) wrote in message news:<6f402501.0408110018.1e4e5ca8 at posting.google.com>...
> Has anyone used ClientCookie to store cookies ? 
> I'm going to play around with 'pickling cookies' - but I wondered if
> anyone had any experience of this.
> 
> (For session persistence in approx - my cgi proxy)
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> Fuzzy
> 
> http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html

Ok, I've got somewhere.
I'm now using the 0.9 version and I found the debugging section in the
docs.

I'm using the example from the docs - but I'm pickling a list of the
pickles rather than using the load and save methods (as the docs
suggest) because I get an NotImplemented error for the save method (so
what use is the load method ?).

COOKIEFILE = 'cookies.pkl'
import ClientCookie
openfun = ClientCookie.urlopen

cj = ClientCookie.CookieJar()
opener = ClientCookie.build_opener(ClientCookie.HTTPCookieProcessor(cj))
ClientCookie.install_opener(opener)

if os.path.isfile(COOKIEFILE):
    cookies = open(COOKIEFILE, 'rb')
    for entry in pickle.load(cookies):
        cj.set_cookie(entry)
    cookies.close()

        
cookies = open(COOKIEFILE, 'wb')
pickle.dump([c for c in cj], cookies)
cookies.close()

req = ClientCookie.Request(theurl)
req.add_header('User-agent', 'Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5;
Windows NT)')
u = openfun(req)
info = u.info()

print HR
print '<PRE>'
print info                     # print the headers
print
print 'Cookies :'
a = 0
for c in cj:
    a += 1
    print a, c.__repr__()      # print each cookie
print '</PRE>'

and I'm now seeing persistent cookies..... hurrah.......
Can I save each cookie as a line of text ? Would that work with the
load method ?

Anyway - now I need to learn about server side cookies so that I can
give each user an 'id' and also write code to clean up unused cookie
files...
*Then* I need to do a seperate CGI that will let users 'manage' their
cookies. (So I'll need to start understanding cookies a bit more)

Great

Regards,

Fuzzy

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html


From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Thu Aug 19 12:31:06 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:31:06 -0400
Subject: My only complaint about Python
In-Reply-To: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <CuCdnUCvWK5XSLncRVn-jw@giganews.com>

Darren Dale wrote:

> I love the language. I love the community. My only complaint is that 
> Python for Windows is built with Visual Studio.
> 
> It is too difficult to build python, or a module, from source. 

In all fairness this is more the problem with Microsoft than
python. If they had a free fully-featured compiler then Python
would be compiled with that.

Microsoft seems to have made some half-hearted attempt in
this direction so that is promising.

I know that there are other compilers for windows but their
market penetration is far less and thus expertise to use them
is hard to come by.

I myself am in a very similar position, have a hard time
deploying extension modules on windows. My usual workaround
is to have a second python available via cygwin where I can
compile everything then then use remote procedural calls
via XMPRPC to connect from the windows python. Clearly
this will work only in certain cases.

Istvan.




From grv575 at hotmail.com  Sat Aug  7 12:28:08 2004
From: grv575 at hotmail.com (grv575)
Date: 7 Aug 2004 09:28:08 -0700
Subject: numarray speed question
References: <953AD3D0Didtoken@128.91.2.239>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408040845120.27254-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<953C4DD4idtoken@128.91.2.239>
	<qnkr7qluxuy.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
Message-ID: <144d0df.0408070828.338f8c19@posting.google.com>

cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca (David M. Cooke) wrote in message news:<qnkr7qluxuy.fsf at arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>...
> Well, numarray probably isn't faster for this case (adding a scalar to
> a vector). In fact, the relevant numarray code looks like this:
> 
> static int add_Float64_vector_scalar(long niter, long ninargs, long noutargs, vo
> id **buffers, long *bsizes) {
>     long i;
>     Float64 *tin1     = (Float64 *) buffers[0];
>     Float64 tscalar   = *(Float64 *) buffers[1];
>     Float64 *tout    = (Float64 *) buffers[2];
>     
>     for (i=0; i<niter; i++, tin1++, tout++) {
>         *tout = *tin1 + tscalar;
>     }
>  return 0;
> }

OK good.  So doing it in C isn't really that much of a headache when
it comes to optimization.

> What you *do* get with numarray is:
> 
> 1) transparent handling of byteswapped, misaligned, discontiguous,
>    type-mismatched data (say, from a memory-mapped file generated on a
>    system with a different byte order as single-precision instead of
>    double-precision).

Heh.  Try timing the example I gave (a += 5) using byteswapped vs.
byteswap().  It's fairly fast to do the byteswap.  If you go the
interpretation way (byteswapped) then all subsequent array operations
are at least an order of magnitude slower (5 million elements test
example).

> 2) ease-of-use. That two lines of python code above is _it_ (except
>    for an 'import numarray' statement). Your C code isn't anywhere
>    nearly complete enough to use. You would need to add routines to
>    read the file, etc.

Can't argue here.

> 3) interactive use. You can do all this in the Python command line. If
>    you want to multiply instead of add, an up-arrow and some editing
>    will do that. With C, you'd have to recompile.

As much as I hate the .edu push for interpreted languages like lisp
and ml, having a python interpreter to test code out real quickly
before it goes into the source script is real nice.

> If you need the best possible speed (after doing it in numarray and
> finding it isn't fast enough), you can write an extension module to
> do that bit in C, or look into scipy.weave for inlining C code, or into
> f2py for linking Fortran code to Python.

Well re speed what really bothers me is the slowness in which numarray
is improving in this area.  If I have to take 1000 FFT's over 32
element arrays, then it's useless.  I'll have to install both numarray
and numeric :/


From fuf at mageo.cz  Thu Aug 19 11:15:50 2004
From: fuf at mageo.cz (Michal Vitecek)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:15:50 +0200
Subject: distutils help
In-Reply-To: <markie-92F802.20120218082004@comcast.dca.giganews.com>
References: <markie-92F802.20120218082004@comcast.dca.giganews.com>
Message-ID: <20040819151550.GB24749@foof.i3.cz>

Mark Jaffe wrote:
>I am customizing a setup script and need to pass in some additional 
>parameters specifying includes and libs. The build_ext lists some user 
>variables such as "include-dirs" and "library-dirs" but I am unclear on 
>how to access these within the setup.py. Are there any distutils gurus 
>here?

...
setup(
    name                = "xxx",
    ...
    ext_modules         = [
        Extension("xxx",
                  sources = ["a.c", "b.c",],
                  include_dirs = [get_python_inc(plat_specific = 1),
                                  "my_own_include_dir",]),
    ],
)

 try to look at other setup.py files - they might help you a lot.

-- 
		fuf		(fuf at mageo.cz)


From ed-no at spam-eepatents.com  Mon Aug 16 15:43:53 2004
From: ed-no at spam-eepatents.com (Ed Suominen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:43:53 -0700
Subject: Newbie 1st program
References: <f9d01b73.0408161010.1ba5e9e4@posting.google.com>
	<hp6dnbqxhPStYL3cRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <SOWdneNemfn5k7zcRVn-tQ@centurytel.net>

Peter Hansen wrote:

> (Congratulations, though.  After six weeks of programming I'm
> quite sure I wasn't capable of writing anything that would
> have been worth posting to Sourceforge, had it existed at
> the time.)

Congratulation from me, too. After six weeks of programming, I'm also quite
sure I wasn't capable of writing anything that would have been worth
posting anywhere, had there been any means to do so other than saving it to
the tape drive. :-)

Sadly, it took about 95% of my programming lifetime before object-oriented
programming came along and I (much later) truly realized what a wonder it
is.

---
Ed Suominen
Registered Patent Agent
Open-Source Software Author (yes, both...)
Web Site: http://www.eepatents.com



From Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU  Wed Aug 18 17:42:46 2004
From: Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU (Michael J. Fromberger)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:42:46 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
References: <20040817181725194-0400@braeburn.themorgue.org>
	<cfvpf0$p5k$1@panix3.panix.com>
Message-ID: <Michael.J.Fromberger-48F71E.17424618082004@localhost>

In article <cfvpf0$p5k$1 at panix3.panix.com>, aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) 
wrote:

> In article <20040817181725194-0400 at braeburn.themorgue.org>,
> Kevin Smith  <Kevin.Smith at sas.com> wrote:
> >
> >Bear with me, but I'd like to propose one more syntax that is simple, 
> >easy for newbies to understand,  and nowhere near as powerful as the 
> >current PEP's syntax.  However, it doesn't add incoherent, arbitrary 
> >syntax either.
> >
> >def classmethod foo(x, y, z):
> >    pass
> 
> You can't do ``grep "def foo"``; therefore, Guido rejected this.  (It's
> a tiny bit more complicated than that, but that's the essence.)

I suppose that's understandable; but would it really be so much worse to 
have to write:

  egrep "def [_a-z0-9]* *foo"

or, even

  grep "def" | grep "foo("

I respectfully submit that this, while it makes a certain amount of 
sense, is probably not a very good design criterion for new syntactic 
features.

-M

-- 
Michael J. Fromberger             | Lecturer, Dept. of Computer Science
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~sting/  | Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA


From npat at efault.net  Fri Aug 13 09:04:28 2004
From: npat at efault.net (Nick Patavalis)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:04:28 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<mailman.1583.1092378965.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnchpf2s.7ld.npat@gray.efault.net>

On 2004-08-13, Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm biased, having done a paper on this at the most recent PyCon, but
> I firmly believe that much of the "Python is too slow" arguments can be
> answered with "too slow for what?" See the pycon proceedings, but I've
> been doing VoIP in Python, complete with audio mixing, and it's been 
> more than fast enough. 
>

Yes but what parts of it were done in python, and what parts were done
inside modules written in C?

Do you believe, for example, that a web-server written in python could
outperform apache? How about an H323 implementation, or a TCP/IP
stack? Or a font renderer? Or a ray-tracer? A gate-level circuit
simulator? A web-browser? A relational database?

>
> Sure, you're not going to get great performance for your numerical
> computation in Python, but luckily, we have numarray for this. 
>

If numarray was written *in Python* I would be delighted. But even
with numarray, if you want to do FFT, you do it in C, not in
Python. And if FFT is not good for you and you need DCT, again in
C. And if the FFT of numarray is not sufficient (e.g. you want an
integer version with certain bit-exact properties), hmmm sory, you
have to do it in C.

At this moment Python is an excelent *glue* language for stuff written
in low-level laguages. It is also an exelent prototyping language. It
has a long way to go before becomming a true "production" language (in
the sense outlined above). Most of this way has to do with Python
*implementations* and not with Python-the-Language. But it seems that
there are some steps that must be taken by the language itself in
order to open the road to efficient implementations.

/npat


From fperez528 at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 31 01:41:36 2004
From: fperez528 at yahoo.com (Fernando Perez)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:41:36 -0600
Subject: ANN: IPython 0.6.3
Message-ID: <ch132q$rnh$1@sea.gmane.org>

Announcing an update to IPython, an enhanced interactive Python shell. 

As always, a big Thank You goes to Enthought and the SciPy crowd for hosting 
ipython and all its attending support services (bug tracker, mailing lists, 
website and downloads, etc).


* WHAT is IPython? IPython tries to:

1. Provide an interactive shell superior to Python's default. IPython has many 
features for object introspection, system shell access, and its own special 
command system for adding functionality when working interactively.

2. Serve as an embeddable, ready to use interpreter for your own programs. 
IPython can be started with a single call from inside another program, 
providing access to the current namespace.

3. Offer a flexible framework which can be used as the base environment for 
other systems with Python as the underlying language.


* WHERE to find it: http://ipython.scipy.org


* Some highlights of this release (details in the changelog):

1. Matplotlib support

The major new feature this time is integrated support for matplotlib 
(http://matplotlib.sourceforge.net).  Thanks to the help of John Hunter 
(matplotlib's author) and others, IPython now has a new option -pylab.  With 
this flag, it loads and configures matplotlib for interactive use, 
automatically adapting thread handling to whatever backend is configured in 
your .matplotlibrc file.  This means that you can use Tk, GTK, or WX and 
IPython automatically handles threading for you so that the matplotlib figure 
windows do NOT block the shell.

The matplotlib features have been tested and work fairly well under Linux, 
though it's quite possible that bugs remain (threading code is particularly 
tricky to debug).  However, under Mac OSX and Windows we have run into 
difficulties which we don't know how to solve yet.  It appears that for these 
platforms, at this point only the Tk/TkAgg backends work well.  Anyone who 
works on these systems and knows about threads is welcome to help; the place 
to look is towards the end of Ipython/Shell.py, where all the thread-handling 
classes reside.

I'd like to thank John for all the time he spent helping me with this.  I 
think for those interested in scientific computing, the combination of 
matplotlib and ipython makes for a very interesting environment.

Please note that this requires matplotlib version 0.62.4 or newer, as John and 
I coordinated the development of these features, and it required changes to 
both ipython and matplotlib.

2. GTK & WXPython threading

There is also experimental, but disabled by default, support for generic (i.e. 
not specific to matplotlib) GTK and WX threading.  Ideally, IPython should 
allow you to run arbitrary GTK or WX programs without blocking, and new 
-gthread/-wthread options were introduced for this purpose.  However, this 
code is not working correctly and my threading knowledge is very limited.

If anyone is interested in this kind of functionality, and can help with 
debugging, simply modify the start() function at the end of IPython/Shell.py 
to re-enable those options (they are commented out).  At that point the 
threading code will become active again.  Any fixes for this will be most
welcome.

3. As usual, a number of fixes for recently reported bugs are also included.

Enjoy, and please report any problems.

Best,

Fernando Perez.



From ville at spammers.com  Sat Aug  7 22:03:21 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 08 Aug 2004 05:03:21 +0300
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu> <cf3b56$gt6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>
Message-ID: <du7smayidxy.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Jarek" == Jarek Zgoda <jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl> writes:

    Jarek> Most of features that made into Python after 2.1 are "just
    Jarek> that", like "nobody has it, so we should" or "somebody has
    Jarek> it, so we would too". The only thing I welcomed in 2.3 was
    Jarek> some interpreter speedup, not new features.

No way, Python 2.2 was the best thing to happen to Python so far.

    Jarek> Come on, guys, fix real problems like interpreter thread
    Jarek> safety, improve performance, don't make us, "real-world
    Jarek> software developers", screaming with every new release,
    Jarek> please.

I guess this depends on the developer. I can't help lovin' stuff like
genexps that are coming in 2.4, while I would harly notice GIL
extermination. It's something that looks important on paper and will
surely help advocacy efforts, but probably wouldn't have significant
impact on the day-to-day lives of the developers. In the meantime, I
don't mind the efforts to shorten that already small gap between the
algorithm in my brain and what's on the editor screen.

I guess this is my feeble attempt to thank the core Python developers
that get all too much flak considering the good job they do. That's
probably how open source works when people care deeply about the
project :-).

Then again, it's 5am in Finland and I'm still moderately drunk.

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Thu Aug 12 16:24:37 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:24:37 +0200
Subject: decorator with keyword
In-Reply-To: <ArGdnWxZ4Z5ZH4bcRVn-vA@powergate.ca>
References: <cffcir$q5p$02$1@news.t-online.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121024260.3440-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<ArGdnWxZ4Z5ZH4bcRVn-vA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <2o21foF65snnU2@uni-berlin.de>

Peter Hansen wrote:
> Christopher T King wrote:
> 
> [about the "decorate:" syntax]
>> The PythonDecorators wiki doesn't say Guido has specifically shot this 
>> style down, so it may yet have a chance.
> 
> The python-dev mailing list doesn't appear to have discussed this one
> yet, but given that much of the, uh, "chatter" that I detect there
> is about minor tweaking of the @pie syntax, I fear they are so not
> likely to pay much attention to new syntaxes and it might be too
> late to get much support for it amongst the core folks.  (Guido
> referred to @pie as "the humble @decorator" yesterday...)

I'm sure it would help if every supporter of this syntax started a
thread of his own on python-dev *wink*

Reinhold

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From esj at harvee.org  Fri Aug 20 10:32:20 2004
From: esj at harvee.org (Eric S. Johansson)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:32:20 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <10i7da3cu03eabb@corp.supernews.com>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<10i7da3cu03eabb@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <cg5234$j6$1@sea.gmane.org>

when I first saw the title, I thought it was along the same theme as the 
"age of dinosaurs" or some such thing.  but my answer is just 48, two 
years, more languages and I care to think about including mess of 
assembly languages, tpl (a weird form of ratfor), and pl/1 subset g.

Python made it possible for me to write code again.  After 18 years of 
programming, RSI went critical and I stopped programming pretty much for 
about 10 years.  Python syntax is simple enough that I can, with proper 
variable naming patterns, write code.  The 5000+ lines of code and 
comment in the camram project are proof of that.

I do wish there was better handicap accessibility for programming as 
there are a bunch of us damaged programmers about to undertake a rather 
significant project, namely making speech recognition work on Linux. 
The details a boring if you're not interested so I will spare you but 
this project is essential for those of us wishing for a choice in our 
development environments.

---eric

-- 
Speech recognition in use.  It makes mistakes, I correct most



From des.small at bristol.ac.uk  Tue Aug 24 10:28:20 2004
From: des.small at bristol.ac.uk (Des Small)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:28:20 GMT
Subject: Regular expression guaranteed to fail
References: <yyrjacwqdrlk.fsf@pc156.maths.bris.ac.uk>
	<cg4p0p$6v7$1@news-reader1.wanadoo.fr>
	<HBF.20040822jyb6@bombur.uio.no>
	<96jmi0pt39frp5n3r34afrt21cfeclp0mi@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <yyrj4qmsd2zv.fsf@pc156.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Greg Chapman <glc at well.com> writes:

> On 22 Aug 2004 20:07:51 +0200, Hallvard B Furuseth <h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no>
> wrote:
> 
> >Eric Brunel wrote:
> >
> >> I also looked for a never-matching re just a few days ago and
> >> ended up with "^(?!$)$". It's certainly not more "standard" than
> >> yours, but I find it a wee tad more readable (for a regular
> >> expression, I mean...):
> >
> >I think e.g. r'\Zx' and r'x\A' are more readable.  In particular
> >the latter, but perhaps that causes Python to locate every 'x' in
> >the string and then check if the string starts at the next
> >character...
> 
> Why not just "(?!)": this always fails immediately (since an empty
> pattern matches any string, the negation of an empty pattern match
> always fails).

I think we have a winner!

Des
thanks all the persons who contributed, of course.
-- 
"[T]he structural trend in linguistics which took root with the
International Congresses of the twenties and early thirties [...] had
close and effective connections with phenomenology in its Husserlian
and Hegelian versions." -- Roman Jakobson


From mcfletch at rogers.com  Wed Aug 18 22:36:17 2004
From: mcfletch at rogers.com (Mike C. Fletcher)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 22:36:17 -0400
Subject: metaclass ???
In-Reply-To: <20040819015843.22FF025CDD@smaug.vex.net>
References: <20040819015843.22FF025CDD@smaug.vex.net>
Message-ID: <41241221.2080404@rogers.com>

BruceKL WhoH wrote:
...

>    What I'm trying to do is :
>    I want to make two class, they are just subtly different,for example
>  
>
...

>all other codes are identical,just f is different.
>    So can I use meta-class here? Or I should do this by another way?
>  
>
If this is the entire specification of what you need to do, it really
seems as though you'd be better off with mix-in classes. Your code would
then look like this:

class Base:
"""Base class providing common functionality"""
# your shared code here

class A( Base ):
"""Overrides method f only"""
def f(self):
print 'a'

class B( Base ):
"""Overrides method f only"""
def f(self):
print 'b'

The first page of the presentation is intended to warn you that, in
general, most programmers never need to use metaclasses, even after
years of work in the language. The use cases for them are fairly exotic,
not the kind of thing you find in "normal" programming operations.

There are cases where you might want to use metaclasses to inject a
method into a class (as covered in the presentation), but those
use-cases tend to be more involved than simply wanting to have 1 method
change. Those cases are normally going to involve making a *decision* at
run-time as to which method implementation to include, for instance
based on the presence/absence of other methods or a data-attribute of
the class.

>    BTW,your pdf is quite nice,how do you make it? Beamer,pdfscreen, or PPT ?
>  
>
OpenOffice.org Presenter (PowerPoint-like app) has a built-in export to PDF.

Have fun,
Mike

________________________________________________
  Mike C. Fletcher
  Designer, VR Plumber, Coder
  http://www.vrplumber.com
  http://blog.vrplumber.com



From FBatista at uniFON.com.ar  Fri Aug 27 09:19:37 2004
From: FBatista at uniFON.com.ar (Batista, Facundo)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:19:37 -0300
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
Message-ID: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C7883@escpl.tcp.com.ar>

[Robert Brewer]

#- The J2 proposal is as complete as it will ever be.
#- 
#- http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html

Great work!


#- This is a call for all who wish to sign the proposal, either for,
#- against, or abstaining. Please sign by either posting on

I'm FOR it. 

Full name: Facundo Batista

Regards,

.	Facundo


From tom at scoosh.com  Wed Aug 18 17:48:52 2004
From: tom at scoosh.com (tom at scoosh.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 22:48:52 +0100
Subject: 654
Message-ID: <cg0isa$abs$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>





From jack at performancedrivers.com  Wed Aug 18 17:52:32 2004
From: jack at performancedrivers.com (Jack Diederich)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:52:32 -0400
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <cftpkf$acj$1@panix1.panix.com>
References: <20040814153534.8AC171E4007@bag.python.org>
	<e69d3ed204081706284b20ea8d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cft1h1$8ru$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<mailman.1804.1092754567.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cftpkf$acj$1@panix1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <20040818215232.GB23725@performancedrivers.com>

On Tue, Aug 17, 2004 at 04:25:51PM -0400, Aahz wrote:
> In article <mailman.1804.1092754567.5135.python-list at python.org>,
> Anthony Baxter  <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >I know that. When writing something as obviously taking the piss as my
> >comment, I don't think it's necessarily to include a smiley - that's
> >for the people who don't get humour, like Americans.
> 
> No, no, no, Americans get humor just fine -- what they don't get is
> irony.

Anyone remember that small study that ranked 'funniest' jokes by
nationality?  [little bit of googling] http://www.laughlab.co.uk/

Top American joke:

 A man and a friend are playing golf one day at their local golf course. One
of the guys is about to chip onto the green when he sees a long funeral 
procession on the road next to the course. He stops in mid-swing, takes off
his golf cap, closes his eyes, and bows down in prayer. His friend says: 
Wow, that is the most thoughtful and touching thing I have ever seen. You 
truly are a kind man. The man then replies: Yeah, well we were married 35 
years.

I'd chalk that up to irony.

But all the "best of" jokes had a few out of the set of irony, wordplay,
misogyny, and absurdity.  And it was a small sample, and it was a self
selected group, and ...   Well, studies are only science sometimes.

The country results ended up with Germans having little sense of humor
(they thought everything was funny) to Canadians being the most picky.
Most "American" comedians are from Canada (SCTV, SNL) so that at least
jives with my personal experience.

That post was too long,

-Jack

NB, and as an American with a German ancestry [check the last name] 
    I'm conflicted.


From arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE  Mon Aug 23 13:14:23 2004
From: arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE (Arien Malec)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:14:23 GMT
Subject: [PATCH] RE: J2 decorator grammar
References: <mailman.2145.1093167850.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<412889c8$0$81159$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>
Message-ID: <Xns954E6899E51E1arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.29>

Michael Sparks <zathras at thwackety.com> wrote in
news:412889c8$0$81159$ed2619ec at ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net: 

> So some other keyword is definitely preferable. Currently I'm swayed
> heavily by arguments in favour of "using" [...]

"using" doesn't make the semantics clear. The naming for "decorators" 
should be influenced not only by the basic use cases (in which the function 
is annotated with metadata), but also the more edge-pushing use cases, like 
classmethod, in which the semantics of the function are changed.

Me, I like: "transform:"...

Arien


From jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu  Fri Aug 20 21:28:44 2004
From: jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu (John Hunter)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:28:44 -0500
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <RUoVc.220150$W9.10920991@phobos.telenet-ops.be> (Roel
	Schroeven's message of "Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:37:21 GMT")
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl> <ZFoVc.360$MR2.1503@news1.mts.net>
	<RUoVc.220150$W9.10920991@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
Message-ID: <m2k6vtgtyr.fsf@mother.paradise.lost>

>>>>> "Roel" == Roel Schroeven <rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm> writes:

    Roel> I thought it would be fairly obvious, but I added labels
    Roel> anyway. I'm not satisfied with there positioning though, and
    Roel> I don't know how to correct it (it's the first time ever I
    Roel> use matplotlib).

How would you like them to be different?  They look pretty good to
me.... :-)

JDH


From dody at postaccesslite.com  Fri Aug 27 00:42:22 2004
From: dody at postaccesslite.com (dody)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:42:22 +0700
Subject: ASPN Python cookbook in a chm
In-Reply-To: <8d3e714e.0408261437.3b53c413@posting.google.com>
References: <mailman.2345.1093432533.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<8d3e714e.0408261437.3b53c413@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <50498806.20040827114222@postaccesslite.com>

of course not :) here you go. sorry, it's a little bit messy.

> Thanks a lot !!!
> This should be included in the next Python distribution!

> Would you mind posting the script tha mde the CHM file ? (unless you
> did it in Perl) :-)
-------------- next part --------------
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From jburns131 at adelphia.net  Tue Aug 10 22:24:48 2004
From: jburns131 at adelphia.net (Jesse B.)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 19:24:48 -0700
Subject: IDLE vs Command Line
Message-ID: <8PidncxTb4muxITcRVn-oQ@adelphia.com>

I like to work with xemacs, so I've been coding modules with xemacs and
running them using the dos prompt (using windows port of xemacs). Some
scripts that work fine with IDLE don't work at the dos prompt. For example:

import random

for i in range(10):
    x = random.random()
    print x

This simple script doesn't work if  I use the command prompt, with this
syntax: python random.py

I am just wondering why that is.




From me at privacy.net  Sat Aug 28 17:05:28 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Richard Hanson)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:05:28 -0700
Subject: MSI Installer Problem: can't install 2.4a2 on new install of
	Win2kSP2
References: <vnipi0ldsgchqqiti1q19qtd5d70ju17p0@4ax.com>
	<412d7dcd$0$26184$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<sfsri058cggdn56usp887tcrus25sgdcsv@4ax.com>
	<412e5452$0$24835$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<p5vsi09a62l3jgvo7omks26gipml6ru524@4ax.com>
	<92uui05l49lurff1depfmvblq8esqllcpg@4ax.com>
	<412f8ebd$0$13030$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
Message-ID: <qgo1j0d2iro7l780rhae544uadgkq15jip@4ax.com>

[Dual-booting Python 2.3.4 on Win98, and Python 2.3.4 and 2.4a2 on new
install of Win2k. Initial install of 2.4a2 on Win2k didn't work, but
now is. Strangeness noted. Ongoing discussion:]

Martin v. L?wis wrote:

>I'm not quite sure why you have the Win98 path in W2k, but it may be
>that W2k also executes certain autoexec things.

[FWIW, more testing this morning, unsure of its the relevancy:]

First, I searched the Fujitsu's Win2k (E:) partition for "autoexec"
and only turned up "autoexec.nt" which is the same as the autoexec
file found on my HP laptop's Win2k. Nothing unusual noted there.

Then, I decided to try and "break" Win2k's 2.4a2 again by putting
Python back into the Win98 (C:) partition's PATH -- today, that
*didn't* break Win2k's 2.4a2.

I next cleaned up Win98's PATH of other extraneous entries, but left
the Python entry in Win98's PATH for testing purposes. No change noted
with this step -- Python 2.3.4's IDLE still worked booting into Win98,
and 2.4a2's IDLE still worked booting into Win2k.

Thinking that the problem may only crop up with the initial
installation of 2.4a2 under my dual-booting conditions, I uninstalled
Python 2.4a2 (Win2k's 2.3.4 already being uninstalled) from E:'s
Win2k. I then checked the registry. The registry still had a few
references to Python 2.4 as well as several to Python 2.3 in places
other than MRUs, etc. For example, the Python file associations were
still in the registry, and Python 2.4 appeared in branches labeled
"Shell" and such. The desktop icons to things Python also still
retained their usual Python appearance. Not being familiar enough, I
tried no manual removal of the Python entries from Win2k's registry. I
did try MS's RegClean 4.1a and another registry cleaner, but the
Python entries remained.

Nonetheless, I reinstalled 2.4a2, and again IDLE works with Python 2.3
in the other OS's partition.

(I'm still picking up my Win98's PATH in my Win2k's PATH using "path"
at a cmd.exe console, however...?)

A more complete testing will have to wait till I get a new harddrive
and again reinstall. (I can't *wait*! <wink>) 

>> [...] I don't understand why having a separate OS on a different
>> partition affected 2.4a2 on Win2k as above (remembering that 2.3.4 on
>> Win2k worked fine with that configuration) [...]
>
>That might be a subtle bug. Python tries to find out its own executable
>path name, in order to find the location to the Python installation. It
>considers two alternatives
>a) argv[0] contains a \. If so, python.exe was fully qualified, so we
>    know the path.
>b) if there is no \, python.exe must be on the PATH. So we look there,
>    and find one in C:\python23, and believe this is us. This logic is
>    flawed, as we should *first* look into the current directory (I
>    think)
>
> From then on, everything fails: we load the 2.3 library, which has a
>different sre version. So regular expressions don't work, and that
>causes pretty much everything to break.

Check. I follow up to here -- thanks!

>What surprises me, though, that this algorithm is *only* executed
>if GetModuleFileName fails, which should not happen in your case...

But now I'm way over my depth -- and today's further testing only made
things more murky for me, alas. (If I discover anything else that
seems relevant to me in my ignorance, I'll post -- also, alas. <wink>)

At any rate, thanks, Martin, for taking the time to help edify me a
little about the nuts-and-bolts of Python.

I'm just glad that things are currently working! :-)

Best regards,
Richard

-- 
email works if unmunged:
sick<PERI0D>ole<P0INT>fart<PIE_DEC0_SYNTAX>newsguy<MARK>com


From fumanchu at amor.org  Mon Aug  9 19:55:22 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 16:55:22 -0700
Subject: Popular Python projects with lots of pure Python code
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022DEA@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Brett C. wrote:
> For my thesis (once the bloody thing stops throwing bugs at me) I am 
> going to need to collect stats on the frequency that atomic types in 
> local variables are applied to various opcodes and methods.  
> That means that I need something to collect stats off of.
> 
> So I am trying to come up with a list of projects I can use to get my 
> stats from.  the stdlib is a no-brainer.  Also plan to use Docutils. 
> But beyond those most of the big Python projects I can think 
> of have a 
> ton of C code which is of no use to me.  I don't need to be 
> able to run 
> it, just going to be compiling to .py files.
> 
> Any suggestions?

If you need just stats (without drilling down into code to interpret
those stats), you might package up your stat-generation code and hand it
out on c.l.p. That way, I and many others could run it against our
proprietary code and just give you results without exposing source code.
Might be a way to get a broader range of results--most of the "big
projects" in the wild are frameworks, not apps.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From dw at botanicus.net  Mon Aug 30 04:27:01 2004
From: dw at botanicus.net (David Wilson)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:27:01 +0100
Subject: The voodoo of zip(*someList)
In-Reply-To: <c60e7f28.0408300000.657118b1@posting.google.com>
References: <c60e7f28.0408300000.657118b1@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <4132E4D5.6050801@botanicus.net>

Message Drop Box wrote:

>All,
>
>How (and why) does zip(*someList) work? 
>
>  
>
>>>>s = [[1, 2, 3], ['one', 'two', 'three'], ['I', 'II', 'III']]
>>>>zip(*s)
>>>>        
>>>>
>[(1, 'one', 'I'), (2, 'two', 'II'), (3, 'three', 'III')]
>
>I've never seen the star '*' outside of function/method definitions
>and I've looked in the Python documentation without success. This
>syntax is voodoo to me at the moment. I'm stumped.
>
>Thanks,
>Stuart
>  
>
Help on built-in function zip:

zip(...)
    zip(seq1 [, seq2 [...]]) -> [(seq1[0], seq2[0] ...), (...)]

    Return a list of tuples, where each tuple contains the i-th element
    from each of the argument sequences.  The returned list is truncated
    in length to the length of the shortest argument sequence.


On the asterisk syntax:
    http://docs.python.org/tut/node6.html#SECTION006730000000000000000
    http://docs.python.org/ref/calls.html


Basically,

    your_sequence = [ 1, 2, 3, 4 ]
    zip(*your_sequence)

is equivalent to:

    zip(1, 2, 3, 4)

In other words, it allows you to programmatically build an argument 
list. Similarly,

    your_mapping = { 'cmpfunc': lambda x: x }
    some_list = [ 3, 1, 6, 2 ]
    some_list.sort(**your_mapping)

is equivalent to:

    zip(cmpfunc = lambda x: x)



The zip function takes an item from each of the sequences given as 
arguments, and packs them into a tuple, continuing until the sequences 
are exhausted.

    seq1 = [ 1, 2, 3, 4 ]
    seq2 = [ 4, 3, 2, 1 ]
    seq3 = "dave"

    zip(seq1, seq2) is:
    [ (1, 4),  (2, 3),  (3, 2),  (4, 1) ]

    zip(seq1, seq2, seq3) is:
    [ (1, 4, "d"),  (2, 3, "a"),  (3, 2, "v"),  (4, 1, "e") ]

There is also an itertools.izip which does the same thing in a 
generator. HTH,


David.


From cito at online.de  Fri Aug 13 00:59:16 2004
From: cito at online.de (Christoph Zwerschke)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 06:59:16 +0200
Subject: multiline snippets with triple quotes
References: <cfgff0$p3o$1@online.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121559220.11006-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <cfhhrh$f5q$2@online.de>

> The textwrap.dedent() function is provided for just this purpose:

Thanks. That was the thing I was looking for, though it's a big ugly, plus
it eats some unnecessary CPU cycles at run time. But I think one can live
with that.

Chris




From martin at v.loewis.de  Mon Aug 30 02:43:44 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 08:43:44 +0200
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
In-Reply-To: <7x1xhqg3kb.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xzn4gwgea.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7a1o.1a5d2q410jsn2kN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xisb4xnh5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7c1a.tfdm14p3hclcN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xd61benm9.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj82n3.1ylkr3nierngmN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgpj1l$i0f$06$1@news.t-online.com>
	<7xd61b8uh2.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<mailman.2565.1093723065.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7x1xhqg3kb.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <4132cc9d$0$26202$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

Paul Rubin wrote:
> so you could say 
>     import x(signed)
> or
>     import x(signed, certfile='mycerts.pem')
> 
> or whatever.

I believe that import is the wrong point in time for checking
signatures. You want to check the signature when the file is
added to sys.path, i.e.

imp.verify_signature(filename)
sys.path.append(filename)

or

imp.verify_all_signatures(sys.path)

That way, you can guarantee that trusted code is on sys.path
all the time. Then, you can also trust any import statement.

Regards,
Martin


From roy at panix.com  Sat Aug 21 15:18:42 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 15:18:42 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<41245e57$0$29668$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
	<j65fi0ltcts3603agj6aiqtuufd6bini0f@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <roy-988BDF.15184221082004@reader1.panix.com>

Alan Gauld <alan.gauld at btinternet.com> wrote:
> I'm 46, started programming in 74 in BASIC (dunno what machine,
> it was located at the local university and we downloaded the
> programs from a teletype over a modem(120 baud) and got back
> printouts 3 days later...)

Basic in 1974 sounds just like where I got started.  We had a teletype 
too (the modem was 110 baud, BTW, not 120), but we were connected to 
another regional high school's time sharing system (an HP-3000, IIRC), 
so we got our stuff immediately.  Oh, oh, oh, oh, stayin' on-line, 
stayin' on-line!

Since then, I've done Fortran, lisp, a few different flavors of 
assembler, C, C++, Java, HyperCard/SuperCard, TCL, Perl, Postscript 
(yes, it's a real programming language) and of course Python.  Oh, and 
NewtonTalk.  How could I forget NewtonTalk :-)  And a few different HP 
calculator languages.


From kaede.news at online.ru  Tue Aug 31 23:41:22 2004
From: kaede.news at online.ru (Eugene Morozov)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 07:41:22 +0400
Subject: GUI Designer
References: <wU0Zc.9845$7i2.529166@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<yKadnRd9LtSYNancRVn-vQ@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <87n00azme5.fsf@nezumi.home.spb>

Doug Holton <insert at spam.here> writes:

> A.M wrote:
>> Hi,
>> Do we have any OpenSource GUI designer for Python ?
>
> It depends on whether you are running Windows or Linux/Mac, and what
> GUI toolkit you want to use (wxpython, qt, gtk, tkinter,
> windows.forms, etc.).
>
> If you are on Linux, a good GUI builder you might try is QT
> Designer. There is a Windows version, too, but you only use it for
> non-commercial development.  See http://developers.coedit.net/QtKde
>

I think that Qt Designer is not the best choice.  For
example if you want to add widget in already designed
layout, you'll have to break all layouts first and
start packing widgets from scratch.
Eugene

-- 
Email: eugene @ renice.org


From vinay_sajip at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Aug 24 10:05:50 2004
From: vinay_sajip at yahoo.co.uk (Vinay Sajip)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 07:05:50 -0700
Subject: logging package log_test3.py problem
References: <cfj67q$mnb$1@boulder.noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <2e37dc1.0408240605.2d7848fd@posting.google.com>

> I expect the Windows NT EventLog handler to fail since I am running under an
> account that does not have Windows Registry update privileges.
> 
> However, I did not expect to see the  message:
> 
> No handlers could be found for logger "root"

This appears to be a bug in fileConfig exception handling. I'll look
into it.

> Also, I have not been able to get a demo script to work that uses
> logging.config.fileConfig with custom handlers I have written.  Is this
> permissable?  If so, how?  Here is a sample error I'm seeing:
> 
> NameError: name 'Details_Log' is not defined

If your custom handler Details_Log is defined in module "mymodule"
then in the config file, name the handler as e.g.
mymodule.Details_Log. Then, do

import logging
import mymodule

logging.mymodule = mymodule

Then fileConfig() should work. The reason for all this is that
fileConfig evaluates the string "mymodule.Details_Log" in the
namespace of the logging module. By adding the "logging.mymodule =
mymodule" line, you allow logging to know about the "mymodule" module.

Best regards


Vinay Sajip


From alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 15 22:19:57 2004
From: alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali)
Date: 15 Aug 2004 19:19:57 -0700
Subject: how to display unicode in a Label in Tkinter
Message-ID: <8f17f4bc.0408151819.c06a79e@posting.google.com>

I was wondering how one would go about displaying unicode in a Label
object in a Tkinter window. I am trying to display text in another
language. Please help.


From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 26 08:54:13 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:54:13 -0400
Subject: vars() and dir()
In-Reply-To: <ac2adf77.0408260448.4e02b5e5@posting.google.com>
References: <ac2adf77.0408260448.4e02b5e5@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <XvKdnSateM3rQLDcRVn-hw@powergate.ca>

Claire wrote:

> i use vars() or dir() to get variables. I use them in a def block, so
> i get variables of that block. How can i get variables from the
> namespace __main__ ?

vars(__main__) or dir(__main__) works if you import __main__ first.

> I use python in interactive mode and want to have a function to get a
> dictionnary for python types (int, ...) and another for my types (my
> classes). this function will be in my pythonstartup file.
> 
> If i use python in interactive mode, is there a main module defined ?

Yes, but you always have to import stuff before you can use it.  Do
import __main__ and it gives you an alias for the current namespace,
but the result is the same as using plain vars() or dir() there.

> i don't know how to use namespace __main__ to get information on this
> "global namespace" like i can do with math or another module

No difference, just import first.

If this doesn't help, please try explaining further what you are
trying to accomplish.  I don't think it's entirely clear from what you
have said above.

-Peter


From shalabh at cafepy.com  Mon Aug 23 17:24:52 2004
From: shalabh at cafepy.com (Shalabh Chaturvedi)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:24:52 -0700
Subject: J2 paper 0.2.1
In-Reply-To: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E36@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E36@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <412A60A4.6020601@cafepy.com>

Robert Brewer wrote:
> The first draft of the J2 proposal is ready. You can read it here:
> http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html
> 
> At this point, I am looking for comments regarding the proposal.

Good work! I raise some concerns but don't claim to offer solutions 
(that I leave to others :).

I.3 Additional Benifits:

    1. Within a suite, my editor (and many Python editors) indents code 
to 4 spaces. This aligns the decorators with the function name itself, 
due to which the function name gets a little lost. In fact, this happens 
in your examples as well.

    2. Using '|' instead of '@' in the example reduces the visual 
readability advantage of the suite version IMO.

    3. Nitpick. Since you are selling to GvR, it might be nice to spell 
his name correctly in the code examples :) Use lowercase 'v' in van when 
writing the full name.

III Choosing a keyword:

    1. "Reads correctly" but only if you know that 'using' preceeds the 
definition.

using:
     classmethod
def foo(cls):
     pass
using:
     staticmethod
def bar():
     pass

    Using classmethod def foo or def foo using staticmethod?

    2. "Should be easy to search for, in both docs and Google."
       Hmm, 'Python using' is more likely to show irrelevant results 
than, say, 'Python predef'.

    3. Because of above I'd favour the 'predef' keyword. It has almost 
all the advantages you list for 'using', and a few more.

I don't mind the @ syntax at all, but I'll consider signing the proposal 
as an alternative since I now think it to be at least as good. Perhaps 
only if you change the keyword <wink>.

Cheers,
Shalabh



From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Wed Aug 11 11:58:26 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:58:26 -0400
Subject: Yet another decorator proposal
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1510.1092238880.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1480.1092204219.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2ntvn1F4mgskU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408111054010.19452-100000@ccc1.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1510.1092238880.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408111157450.20869-100000@ccc1.wpi.edu>

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Marco Aschwanden wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:55:40 -0400, Christopher T King <squirrel at WPI.EDU> 
> wrote:
> 
> > Also, don't forget docstrings get thrown away when using python -OO.
> > Great voodoo would be needed to prevent this from happening.
> 
> <magic>

Like I said, great voodoo ;)



From eppstein at ics.uci.edu  Mon Aug 23 16:49:17 2004
From: eppstein at ics.uci.edu (David Eppstein)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:49:17 -0700
Subject: Standard graph API?
References: <slrncik8tm.4g.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
	<eppstein-08D901.11581523082004@news.service.uci.edu>
	<slrncikldl.e8q.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
Message-ID: <eppstein-24459C.13491723082004@news.service.uci.edu>

In article <slrncikldl.e8q.mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no>,
 mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no (Magnus Lie Hetland) wrote:

> >- It doesn't directly represent multigraphs
> 
> Unless you insist on having neighbor-sets, it does, doesn't it?
> Neighbor-lists can be used for this...?

If you're doing anything serious with a multigraph you need to have some 
way of distinguishing different edges between the same pair of vertices.  
For instance, an edge object for each edge, that you can use as an index 
to store information about that edge.  A neighbor list that has multiple 
copies of the same neighbor won't let you do that, you can iterate 
through the edges but not distinguish one from another.

Another possibility, which fits into the same general abstract API but 
is more specialized, would be to represent a multigraph by a dict of 
dicts, where the outer dict maps each vertex to its neighbors and the 
inner dict maps each neighbor to the number of edges; then you could 
represent each edge by a tuple (v,w,index) with index in range(G[v][w]).

-- 
David Eppstein
Computer Science Dept., Univ. of California, Irvine
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/


From areiner at tph.tuwien.ac.at  Thu Aug 26 17:11:55 2004
From: areiner at tph.tuwien.ac.at (Albert Reiner)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 23:11:55 +0200
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<VJOdnfiBTci22rDcRVn-gg@adelphia.com>
	<aNidnUSV4-OK4rDcRVn-jA@powergate.ca>
	<cgkfs3$b87$1@ares.cs.utwente.nl>
	<Nbudnes8cfDjWLDcRVn-sA@powergate.ca>
	<cgkhtp$duf$1@ares.cs.utwente.nl>
Message-ID: <vw8fz6938pw.fsf@berry.phys.ntnu.no>

["Michiel Borkent" <borkent at cs.utwente.nl>, Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:35:38 +0200]:
> LISP and Esperanto: my favorite languages.

Ankaux miaj - krom, eble, ankaux la Haskella.

Stranga koncentrigxo de verdlingvanoj cxe cll, cxu ne?

Albert.


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Tue Aug 10 15:26:52 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:26:52 -0400
Subject: Prothon is switching to the .NET platform
In-Reply-To: <cf1t0h$ond$03$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <000401c47b59$32539220$0d01a8c0@MarkVaio>
	<mailman.1257.1091769173.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061247130.22947-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<10h7lb21dhbuc12@news.supernews.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061533250.25906-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<10h7rittck6ct75@news.supernews.com>
	<cf1t0h$ond$03$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408101524030.9982-100000@ccc2.wpi.edu>

On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Peter Otten wrote:

> This means that an object sees all changes in its prototypes until
> explicitly assigned an attribute. Is this intentional? (real question, I'm
> not familiar with prototyped languages)

Fully intentional -- that's one of the benefits of prototyped languages!  
If you didn't want ancestral changes reflected in an object, then you 
would copy the object instead of deriving from it.



From alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 14 23:32:49 2004
From: alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali)
Date: 14 Aug 2004 20:32:49 -0700
Subject: Anyone use VPython?
Message-ID: <8f17f4bc.0408141932.46b7c405@posting.google.com>

Anyone use VPython?


From jfl at webcom.dk  Thu Aug  5 08:03:20 2004
From: jfl at webcom.dk (Jacob Friis Larsen)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 14:03:20 +0200
Subject: Freelance job: Store Universal Feed Parser data in MySQL
In-Reply-To: <20040805112023.D82A2235DAC@web1.webalogic.com>
References: <20040805112023.D82A2235DAC@web1.webalogic.com>
Message-ID: <41122208.30400@webcom.dk>

Anyone interested in a freelance job like this?

> Category	Python
> Amount	Offer wanted
> 
> I need a Python script that stores all data from UFP (http://feedparser.org/) in a MySQL database.
> 
> All feeds are stored locally, and updated every hour or more often. Thus the script must run every hour or as often as possible.
> All data from all feeds must be stores in MySQL. Old feed data should never be deleted.
> 
> Let me know if you need more info.
> 
> http://www.sharksforum.com/q/698


From sharidas at zeomega.com  Thu Aug 19 03:48:24 2004
From: sharidas at zeomega.com (Satchidanand Haridas)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:18:24 +0530
Subject: inverse of izip
In-Reply-To: <loom.20040819T092507-31@post.gmane.org>
References: <d11dcfba.0408182144.14aad4a8@posting.google.com>
	<loom.20040819T092507-31@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <41245B48.3020000@zeomega.com>

Hi,

How about using iter() to get another solution like the following:

 >>> starzip2 = lambda it: tuple([iter(x) for x in itertools.izip(*it)])

 >>> l,m = starzip2(itertools.izip(range(10),range(10)))

 >>> l
<tupleiterator object at 0x4016802c>
 >>> m
<tupleiterator object at 0x4016896c>

 >>> list(l)
[0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9]
 >>> list(m)
[0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9]

Thanks,

Satchit

----
Satchidanand Haridas (sharidas at zeomega dot com)

ZeOmega (www.zeomega.com)
Open  Minds' Open Solutions

#20,Rajalakshmi Plaza,
South End Road,
Basavanagudi,
Bangalore-560 004, India



Steven Bethard wrote:

>Steven Bethard <steven.bethard <at> gmail.com> writes:
>  
>
>>What's the inverse of izip?  Of course, I could use zip(*) or izip(*),
>>e.g.:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>>zip(*itertools.izip(range(10), range(10)))
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>[(0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9), (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)]
>>    
>>
>>>>>x, y = itertools.izip(*itertools.izip(range(10), range(10)))
>>>>>x, y
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>((0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9), (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9))
>>
>>But then I get a pair of tuples, not a pair of iterators.  Basically,
>>I want to convert an iterator of tuples into a tuple of iterators.
>>    
>>
>
>Sorry to respond to myself, but after playing around with itertools for a 
>while, this seems to work:
>
>  
>
>>>>import itertools
>>>>starzip = lambda iterables: ((tuple[i] for tuple in itr) for i, itr in 
>>>>        
>>>>
>enumerate(itertools.tee(iterables)))
>  
>
>>>>starzip(itertools.izip(range(10), range(10)))
>>>>        
>>>>
><generator object at 0x008DED28>
>  
>
>>>>x, y = starzip(itertools.izip(range(10), range(10)))
>>>>x
>>>>        
>>>>
><generator object at 0x008E1058>
>  
>
>>>>y
>>>>        
>>>>
><generator object at 0x008E1080>
>  
>
>>>>list(x)
>>>>        
>>>>
>[0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9]
>  
>
>>>>list(y)
>>>>        
>>>>
>[0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9]
>
>Seems like a bit of work for the inverse of izip though so I'll wait to see if 
>anyone else has a better solution.  (Not to mention, it wouldn't be a single 
>line solution if I wasn't using 2.4...)
>
>Steve
>
>
>  
>


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Tue Aug 17 09:12:46 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:12:46 -0400
Subject: How big can a Python program be?
In-Reply-To: <903b3fba.0408170333.49ce3944@posting.google.com>
References: <903b3fba.0408170333.49ce3944@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408170910560.31141-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>

On 17 Aug 2004 vronskij at post.sk wrote:

> Suppose , you are a sole programmer (lonewolf). How many lines can one
> handle?

$ wc -l my_current_big_project_that_is_very_far_from_being_complete/*
   2945

I'm sure others can do better than that.



From ccurvey at earthlink.net  Sun Aug 29 20:36:53 2004
From: ccurvey at earthlink.net (Chris Curvey)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 00:36:53 GMT
Subject: cPickle and __getattr__
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2586.1093825857.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <ChuYc.2094$w%6.858@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>
	<mailman.2586.1093825857.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <FEuYc.2123$w%6.245@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>

> 
>   Potentially lots of things.  But the problem isn't that cPickle is 
> calling __getattr__, exactly.  The problem is that your __getattr__ 
> isn't properly signalling non-existent attributes.  You should raise 
> AttributeError instead of implicitly returning None for which there is 
> no attribute.  Adding "raise AttributeError(name)" to the end of the 
> definition unbreaks it enough to let pickle work.
> 

Ah, that's it.  Many thanks!



From maxwell at ldc.upenn.edu  Tue Aug 31 15:51:21 2004
From: maxwell at ldc.upenn.edu (Mike Maxwell)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 12:51:21 -0700
Subject: -c input
Message-ID: <367a4461.0408311151.59b61f54@posting.google.com>

python -c "print 'hi'; for i in [1,2]: print i"

gives me an invalid syntax error, with the carat pointing to the end
of the word 'for'.  But

   python -c "print 'hi'; print 'i'"

works fine, as does 

   python -c "for i in [1,2]: print i"

What gives?  Why can't 'for' appear after a semicolon?  (Similar for
'while'.)

If there's some reason the 'for' can't be made to work after the
semicolon, is there some simple way to get a newline into the string
on the cmd line?  (short of using 'echo' twice, or putting the
commands into a file)

(I've tested this in v2.3.3 under both CygWin and Linux.)


From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Tue Aug 10 19:15:23 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:15:23 -0700
Subject: Printing in Python
References: <cfbfeq$9ngp$1@netnews.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <fh1ou1-n8e.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

uri bushey wrote:
> I am trying to print the contents of the WaveSurfer canvas. Is there
> an easy way to do this in Python? Also, I can pretty easily use the
> WaveSurfer "print" function in my program, but taht only prints to a
> PostScript printer or prints out a PostScript file.

Printing was one major reason I dumped Tkinter in favour of
wxPython which does the printing side on all platforms well.

> I would like to automate the process of printing the PostScript file
> in a manner that is not terribly unwieldy and as transparent to the
> user as possible. Is this possible?

On Windows, users can install PDFCreator and associate it with
.ps files.

You may also want to look to see if you can generate PDF instead
of postscript (eg reportlab).

Roger 




From raims at dot.com  Sun Aug  1 18:14:10 2004
From: raims at dot.com (Lawrence Oluyede)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 00:14:10 +0200
Subject: Module for converting XML to Python object(s)?
References: <otdPc.224$df.27@bignews5.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <l3d69asty64z.1meymc47cpudd.dlg@40tude.net>

In data Sun, 1 Aug 2004 17:42:14 -0400, Robert Oschler ha scritto:

> Has anybody seen a Python module that will take an XML document (not a
> colossal one), and convert it to a Python nested class object?

Maybe this can help you:
http://xmlobject.base-art.net/

-- 
Lawrence (l dot oluyede at virgilio dot it)
"In IE we trust"


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug  9 08:33:45 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 08:33:45 -0400
Subject: PEP-0318
In-Reply-To: <c8neh0t41km1h79ufo4vkrhh78dt27vlok@4ax.com>
References: <41122FC2.1080608@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1251.1091764482.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4114152f@nntp.zianet.com> <aIOdnRybBucMsIncRVn-gA@comcast.com>
	<4116bc20$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<mailman.1369.1092015284.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<c8neh0t41km1h79ufo4vkrhh78dt27vlok@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <6NCdncg4ssq28orcRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>

Arthur wrote:

> On the other hand, when I # comment a function, my instinct has always
> been to place the comment directly above the function, rather than in
> the body. Which I seem to think is common practice.  So I need to
> admit that with the freedom to comment anywhere, the fact that
> instinct, and nothing but, has led me to place it outside  and above
> the body  perhaps sabotages, a bit, my own and others position that
> decorators outside and above the function is somehow unnatural.

Comments are not decorators, and vice versa.

Editing tools have been evolved to subtly de-emphasize comments,
often, so that even when they appear above a function def they
do not inhibit (much) the process of finding the function def
when one scans the code.

Comments above the code are generally ignored, while decorators
may well be highly significant in the new world order.

Some people eschew comments above the functions and use only
doc-comments in Python, partly to avoid the situation where
the comments would obscure the function def.

It's probably not instinct, but experience (reading others' code)
that has led you to put the comments above function.

All in all, I'm not sure any of the points you raise sabotage
the position that decorators above the function are somehow
unnatural.

Unfortunately, decorators in the function are also unnatural.

In fact, they really need a separate dimension, but unfortunately
we're using a 2D system to describe them and probably have to
make a choice.  After, within, or before.

After is right out now, it seems.

Within has been discussed, and while many of us still find it
has the greatest merit (in the form of list-after-def), those
who argue it _can be_ harder to find speak the truth.  (Many
of us say "so what" to that, and still think the elegance and
other advantages of the approach outweigh that argument, but
we're not going to succeed with our argument. :-)

Therefore it will be before... the only important choice left
seems to be what bizarre and arbitrary punctuation symbol will
be chosen for the purpose.  (To be fair, it's not "arbitrary"
any more: clearly the sole requirement for this is how loud
and in-your-face the decorator symbol will be.  I don't know
when this sort of thing became considered good style for Python,
but this too is the new world order.)

-Peter


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 24 08:48:58 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:48:58 -0400
Subject: How does a "script" differ from a "program" or "subroutine"?
In-Reply-To: <56cfb0e3.0408232247.2df68078@posting.google.com>
References: <cge1h0$8qd@odbk17.prod.google.com>
	<mailman.2253.1093310132.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<56cfb0e3.0408232247.2df68078@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <zYWdnavvH-tcpbbcRVn-jw@powergate.ca>

Porky Pig Jr wrote:

> Phil Frost <indigo at bitglue.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.2253.1093310132.5135.python-list at python.org>...
>>A script is just a program, but has the implication that it's a simple
>>program for a simple task.
>>
> I think the major implication is not that it's simple but it's written
> in some 'interpreted' (rather than compiled) language. so we say
> Python or Perl or Bash script, but not 'C script'. Look at the job
> openings: you'll often see something like this: 'knowledge of
> scripting languages (such as Perl and/or Python)'.

Before this explodes into another long thread, please check the
archives for this newsgroup if you have any interest in this
topic.  It has been discussed at length, and both Phil's and
Porky Pig's responses have been posted before, along with
others (which I have a feeling we're about to see yet again
from other people in spite of this post... ;-).

-Peter


From grzegorz at ee.ualberta.ca  Fri Aug  6 12:34:47 2004
From: grzegorz at ee.ualberta.ca (Grzegorz Dostatni)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 12:34:47 -0400
Subject: Extending python.
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061224090.8941-100000@e5-05.ee.ualberta.ca>


Cheers.

More questions.
Let's say I'm trying to extend python with a c module. That module cannot
be dynamically loaded (for reasons outside my control). I have to create a
custom python executable (or more likely custom python library).
How would I do that? Is there documentation on that somewhere? Most of
what I've seen was for dynamic loading.

2nd Step:
Let's say I'm doing it under windows, using Visual Studio. Is there
anything I have to be aware of?

3rd Step:
Let's say I don't have the source available. I do have the object files,
the resulting libraries and the header files though.

Greg

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds,
 and the pessimist fears this is true."
	- James Branch Cabell




From export at hope.cz  Wed Aug 11 15:57:58 2004
From: export at hope.cz (Lad)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 12:57:58 -0700
Subject: Apache web server and CGI
References: <81a41dd.0408090447.7f27a092@posting.google.com>
	<10hf2ugjngver5e@corp.supernews.com>
	<81a41dd.0408092306.264beed@posting.google.com>
	<slrnchhcv5.mtn.news@woody.datatailors.com>
	<81a41dd.0408101143.43fea836@posting.google.com>
	<slrnchk875.p2u.news@woody.datatailors.com>
Message-ID: <81a41dd.0408111157.69703c2@posting.google.com>

Peter van Kampen <news at woody.datatailors.com> wrote in message news:<slrnchk875.p2u.news at woody.datatailors.com>...
> In article <81a41dd.0408101143.43fea836 at posting.google.com>, Lad wrote:
> 
> >> 
>  
> >> <Directory /usr/lib/cgi-bin/>
> >>     AllowOverride None
> >>     Options ExecCGI
> >>     Order allow,deny
> >>     Allow from all
> >> </Directory>
>  
> > Thanks Peter for help. Now I can run cgi scripts in default 
> > c:/program files/apache group/apache/cgi-bin/
> > directory.
> > The problem was that there was not last "/"
> > 
> > But how can I forced the Apache to allowed to run scripts in a
> > different directory for example C:\Test\MyScripts\
> 
> I would guess you have something like the above in your httpd.conf
> 
> ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/ c:/program files/apache group/apache/cgi-bin/
> 
> <Directory c:/program files/apache group/apache/cgi-bin/>
>     AllowOverride None
>     Options ExecCGI
>     Order allow,deny
>     Allow from all
> </Directory>
> 
> Simply replace c:/program files/apache group/apache/cgi-bin/ with
> C:\Test\MyScripts
> 
> Hth,
> 
> PterK

Peter, Thanks a lot. Now it works, but the scripts must be still
started as
http://localhost/cgi-bin/test2.py eventhough the scripts are not
/cgi-bin/ directory but in MyScripts directory. I think that Apache
maps MyScripts directory to /cgi-bin/ directory.
Thanks again for help
Lad


From nicklaforge at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 21:34:14 2004
From: nicklaforge at gmail.com (Nick LaForge)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 18:34:14 -0700
Subject: gmail messes up code?
Message-ID: <1fc0d98004082618346dff83d8@mail.gmail.com>

Hello python-list!

I just signed up for gmail, and I am hearing some complaints about
gmail not correctly showing code in the gmail interface.

1. What can I do to make it more readable for myself?

and 

2.  What can I do to make my messages more readable for others?

Thank you!
-- 
Nick LaForge
Mystic0


From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 04:00:34 2004
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 01:00:34 -0700
Subject: lambda ??
Message-ID: <6f402501.0408270000.31ad1455@posting.google.com>

I'm starting to read through the developer works article on Functional
Programming - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/library/l-prog.html

It starts by giving some basic examples using lambda. What I'm
wondering is what's the actual difference between these two forms ?

pr = lambda s:s
*and*
def pr(s):
    return s

Both bind the name 'pr' to a function object that does the same thing
?? I know that lambda functions can only be a single expression......

Is it just a basic example (and so in this case there is no
difference).. or am I missing something. (What's the point of an
'anonymous' function... if you give a name to it !!).

Regards,

Fuzzy

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlatnibots/pythonutils.html


From imbosol at aerojockey.com  Wed Aug 11 22:46:49 2004
From: imbosol at aerojockey.com (Carl Banks)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 19:46:49 -0700
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <60dfb6f6.0408111846.615ee9eb@posting.google.com>

steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard) wrote in message news:<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8 at posting.google.com>...

> I know there were complaints before about this sort of indentation,
> but I couldn't find them in python-dev and the comments in the wiki
> don't discuss this in any detail.  Can anyone tell me why this
> indentation syntax was dispreferred?  Specifically, I'm interested in
> why this is so drastically different from the other paired blocks:
> if/elif/else, try/except, try/finally, etc. 

One thing that's different is that, in all those cases, the second
block has a keyword that can't appear alone.  You can't have an except
without a try, or an else without an if, but you could have a def
without a decorate.

For that reason, I suggest it would be a bit more congruent (not
necessarily enough to justify another new keyword) with the rest of
Python to also use a keyword different from def, say ddef.

    decorate:
        ...
    ddef function(args):
        ...

Either is definitely very passable if we must go the before-the-def
route.


> Also, there's a comment
> in the wiki that says that there are technical problems with the
> grammar if a block *starts* with an optional part.  Does this not
> apply to the @ case (which also starts a block with an optional part)?

It doesn't seem like there would be a problem defining it in, for
example, yacc.  def and decorate...def could be two different
statements.


From rickh  Tue Aug  3 18:45:06 2004
From: rickh (Richard Hilburger)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 15:45:06 -0700
Subject: flowcharting is automatic for Python via preprocessor
References: <mailman.1069.1091487166.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<IUzPc.29707$K53.23470@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <cep4p70uj6@enews3.newsguy.com>

 I would describe "grasp" as a "Control Structure Diagrammer" and not a
"Control Flow Diagrammer".  I could easily "dumb down" getCET and make it
into a structure diagrammer, but that kind of functionality has already been
done many times over.  Yawn.

"Neil Hodgson" <nhodgson at bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:IUzPc.29707$K53.23470 at news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Connelly:
>
> > I think your visual diagrams could help, if they are:
> > ...
> > 2. Integrated into a code editor.
> >
> >    I could see this being a new code editor fad, like collapsable
> >    functions and classes.
>
> http://www.eng.auburn.edu/grasp/index.html
>
>    Neil
>
>




From asif at go-away-spammer.com  Tue Aug 31 13:23:23 2004
From: asif at go-away-spammer.com (Player)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 18:23:23 +0100
Subject: Beginners question.
Message-ID: <ch2c6b$5ap$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>

Hi all

 I am teaching myself python and so am following a few tutorials from 
online.

In one of the tutorials an exercise is the following...

 As an exercise, write a loop that traverses the previous list and prints 
the length of each element.

Firstly I just wanted to see if I could get the length out of those elements 
that were list type.
I no thats not exactly what the exercise asks for, but I thought I would 
start there.
However I am stuck and cant figure out why my code is doing what it's doing.
My code is as follows....

mylist = [1, 2, ["three", "four"], "five"]
for item in mylist:
    if item == type(list):
        myitem = len(item)
        print myitem
    else:
         print item

All my code seems to do is print out each element of the list on a new line.
What I had expected it to do was this....
1
2
2
'five'

but it doesn't, what it does do is this...

1
2
['three', 'four']
'five'

I expected the line,
myitem = len(item)
 to issue the variable, myitem, with a value that was the length of item.
But as you cans ee it doesn't and simply ignores all that code and does the
else:
    print item
part instead, misisng out the first half of the for loop.

Were am I going wrong ??

Thanks in advance for any help :)

M.B aka - Player -

-- 
*************
The Imagination may be compared to Adam's dream-
he awoke and found it truth.
John Keats.
************* 




From pf_moore at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Aug 24 17:22:23 2004
From: pf_moore at yahoo.co.uk (Paul Moore)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 22:22:23 +0100
Subject: J2 paper 0.2.1
References: <mailman.2300.1093380231.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <uoel0z0xc.fsf@yahoo.co.uk>

"Robert Brewer" <fumanchu at amor.org> writes:

> First, thanks for the comments!
>
> Paul Moore wrote:
>> 1. I differ on the "it doesn't matter what the keyword is" statement.
>>    On the contrary, my view could completely change depending on the
>>    keyword - I'd loathe "predef", whereas "using" is acceptable to me.
>>    Putting the proposal forward *without* an agreed keyword isn't
>>    (IMHO) fair to people who have this view.
>
> I understand your emotion, now, but not your reasoning, and in the
> absence of that, I can't generate a fix for the proposal. If you could
> go into more detail *why* you would loathe predef, it would go a long
> way toward allowing a stronger statement in the doc. I feel "using" has
> positives, but I don't know what the negatives of "predef" are.

That's fair. I'm not sure I fully understand my own reasoning, but
I'll see what I can do.

My biggest problem, I guess, is that "predef" isn't a real word.
Possibly one of the reasons I feel more comfortable with "using" is
that there is prior art for it being a language keyword (C++ and C#)
even though it doesn't mean anything remotely similar in those
languages.

But I don't want to get sucked into the potentially endless arguments
over what keyword to use. I really don't care enough. And from your
point of view, I don't think my vote is important enough that
catering to my likes and dislikes is a key point.

On the other hand, I *can* defend an argument that the proposal must
take a stance on the keyword proposed. The existence of people (me,
as an example :-)) whose vote would be changed by the choice of a
keyword implies that not taking a stance leaves those people with no
basis for making their decision. Of course, how significant this
argument is depends on how many people fall into this category - and
I have no facts on that. By pointing out that the two key contenders
represent opposite extremes to me, all I can hope to do is to prompt
people to think about how much the choice of keyword matters to them.

>> 2. Does the patch support decorating classes? The @ syntax *might* by
>>    now (in CVS), there was discussion of adding it but I'm not sure it
>>    went in. The patch should probably provide the same functionality
>>    as CVS @-syntax, rather than just 2.4a2.
>
> The patch does not support decorating classes, because @ doesn't.
> There's a patch submitted for that*, but it hasn't been accepted, IIRC.
> The PEP says 2.4 will see only function decorators.

Fair enough. I'd say that the existence of a patch which extends the
decorator syntax to classes is a benefit for @ syntax over J2. I don't
have a feel for whether there's a likelihood of class decorators being
accepted for 2.4, and hence how strong a benefit it is. I would,
however, argue that regardless of this, PEP 318 should say "For Python
2.4, only function/method decorators are being proposed", rather than
"... are being added".

But I take your point - chasing possible extensions is fruitless.

Paul.
-- 
The only reason some people get lost in thought is because it's
unfamiliar territory -- Paul Fix


From firemoth at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 00:53:42 2004
From: firemoth at gmail.com (Timothy Fitz)
Date: 15 Aug 2004 21:53:42 -0700
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
References: <972ec5bd.0408141032.385fe115@posting.google.com>	<mailman.1660.1092515096.5135.python-list@python.org>	<972ec5bd.0408142203.5a8d5d04@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1674.1092554040.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <972ec5bd.0408152053.67b13c35@posting.google.com>

> For general coroutines it would have been.  For Simple Generators (the
> PEP's title) I think it was the right decision -- "simple" isn't
> consistent with piling on gimmicks.
> 
> If you want to change it, write a new PEP.

Hmm, I do agree in the context of "Simple Generators" yield implying
None would not make sense and (as shown by the fact that nobody else
seems to care) is a good parse-time error facility.

Is there, then, demand for full on Coroutines? I will live having to
type those extra four letters, or maybe I'll cop out and yield 0 (hah)
but it seems other people are used to coroutines in other languages
(python is my first and only) and there might be demand.

(Also, my first post on Usenet, ever, and in under two hours I get a
respond from someone whose name I recognize on sight... I am
impressed!)


From tzot at sil-tec.gr  Sat Aug 21 15:35:22 2004
From: tzot at sil-tec.gr (Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 22:35:22 +0300
Subject: Detecteing Unicode encodings
References: <rfWdnUw41o6SELrcRVn-qQ@adelphia.com>
Message-ID: <bn8fi0t78iih0p90qagl6svmuea0al79ti@4ax.com>

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:57:34 -0700, rumours say that Jason Diamond
<jason at injektilo.org> might have written:

>If I read up to four bytes from the byte stream, I can figure out what
>encoding the stream is in but that has problems for UTF-8 streams
>without BOMs--I would have just eaten one or more bytes that might need
>to be decoded by the StreamReader. I could seek back to the beginning of
>the stream but what if the file-like object I was reading from didn't
>support seeking?

Two options pop up instantly:

1. "Programmers do it byte by byte" (mainly a joke, so go to option 2 :)

2. wrap your file-like object in a custom object, which implements a
pushback method and its read method returns first from the push-back
buffer.  If you read data that you shouldn't, push them back and give
your custom object to the StreamReader.
-- 
TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best,
"Tssss!" --Brad Pitt as Achilles in unprecedented Ancient Greek


From fumanchu at amor.org  Sun Aug 22 14:55:59 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:55:59 -0700
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E2A@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Roy Smith wrote:
> Putting on my "Slightly Silly Party" hat...

My turn for slightly silly (perhaps I shouldn't drink so much before
noon on a Sunday ;)

transform -> xform -> xf -> xdef

xdef:
    staticmethod
def foo():
    pass

We would at least be seen as an up-and-coming big-advertising product,
having an 'x' in there. ;)

-> xef?

xef:
    staticmethod
def foo():
    pass

Nah. Too silly.


FuManChu


From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 24 13:05:59 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:05:59 -0500
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <njemi0hrm3jb1kdc8mhg8krd9a4qu3e894@4ax.com>
References: <20040819231139.D039A1E4003@bag.python.org>
	<mailman.1999.1092969866.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<eyqWc.223375$j62.10948731@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<qVAWc.2328$MR2.9560@news1.mts.net>
	<njemi0hrm3jb1kdc8mhg8krd9a4qu3e894@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <czKWc.2394$MR2.10042@news1.mts.net>

My jaw just dropped.

School-mates not continually learning, man, have I been there.  After I 
graduated, I coded C++ just for fun as a hobby thing (required by the 
BeAPI).  Every once in while the class got together for a supper or 
lunch and we talked (of course) about what we've been up to.  One girl 
mentioned that she was coding C++.  I asked her some questions about 
what she was doing and all I got was a "deer in headlights" look and a 
smile.  She just looked at the others and made the "over the head" 
gesture.  I fully wanted to know and learn something.  After all, she 
was doing this professionally, but there was nothing there.  No wounder 
most software is crap nowadays.

But installing word for data conversions, amoung those others?  All I 
have is sympathy.  'Tis a sad state of affairs indeed.


Andrea Griffini wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 01:07:01 -0500, Reid Nichol
> <rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Perhaps it's just 
>>where I went to school though or where I hang out, but it can't all be 
>>coincidence.
> 
> 
> IMO it's no coincidence. I think that *most* professional
> programmers are not regular readers of usenet newsgroups
> about the languages they use... not only that... IMO in
> the bigger part they don't actually know what usenet
> newsgroups are. And most didn't even read any book on the
> languages and tools they use unless that happened when
> they were still at school.
> 
> I decided that for myself I'll always cut out enough time
> to keep studying. But many just go forever with what they
> learned when they were forced to because of an exam.
> 
> I've personally lived totally absurd situations where
> experienced programmers were just spending a lot of time
> and energy (and were making a lot of mistakes) because
> they never heard about make tools. I'm NOT kidding.
> 
> I've seen things you people wouldn't believe... ;-)
> MS Word macros taking ages and requiring superservers
> (yes... they were installing office purposely to
> superservers so that MS word could use that RAM to be
> able to load the file to convert) to do data conversions
> that someone knowing perl wouldn't even save the script
> for (but would just invoke perl with "-e").
> 
> This is no joke. I was consulted for help when the word
> macro stopped working complaining first about being unable
> to "undo" changes and then crashing ms word anyway after.
> 
> 
> Looks like keeping studying, observing and "learning" is
> considered "out" by many of my collegues.
> 
> Andrea


From gandalf at geochemsource.com  Wed Aug 18 05:38:21 2004
From: gandalf at geochemsource.com (Gandalf)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:38:21 +0200
Subject: Platform independent way to play an mp3 file
Message-ID: <4123238D.7040705@geochemsource.com>

Does anyone know a platform independent way to play an mp3 file from Python?
I believe the standard library cannot do this.

   L 2.0




From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Thu Aug 12 11:24:09 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:24:09 -0400
Subject: Pyhton Interpreter Startup time
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1556.1092304607.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1556.1092304607.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121103110.4649-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Neil Benn wrote:

> Is there a way to have a 'stripped' down Python interpreter which can
> start up very quickly on a windows box.

Two things you can do are:

1) Run Python as "python -S".  Normally, Python does an 'import site' 
before running other code.  Starting with 2.3, this does lots of expensive 
localization goo, etc.; my guess is your script doesn't need it to execute 
correctly, if it doesn't use any i18n functions.

2) Pre-compile the script.  Normally, Python generates .pyc files for
imported modules so it doesn't have to re-parse the source code, but it
won't do this for a script specified on the command line.  You can force
it to compile your script by importing the script in the interactive
interpreter, but this will also run your script (possibly not desirable).  
You can compile the script without running it by using the py_compile
module:

python -c 'import py_compile; py_compile.compile("my_script.py")'

You can then run the compiled version using 'python my_script.pyc' 
('python my_script.py' will ignore the compiled version).

> Once thing I was thinking of was to use PyExe to make a 
> quick startup (does it compile down to C code, therefore not using the 
> Python interpreter at runtime?).  Is this a possible solution?

Nope.  py2exe just embeds the Python interpreter in the .exe.  If 
anything, startup would be slower, since py2exe also places all required 
modules in a ZIP archive.



From leandro_ricardo at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  6 08:34:20 2004
From: leandro_ricardo at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Leandro?=)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:34:20 -0300 (ART)
Subject: upper memory limit
Message-ID: <20040806123420.20214.qmail@web10703.mail.yahoo.com>

There is an upper memory limit in Python?
I have 2GB RAM and 2 processors Xeon 2.4 - (Windows XP), but I just can use
1.2G of memory, after this python crashes.
Does someone know if python has some memory limit?



	
	
		
_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Gr?tis - navegue de gra?a com conex?o de qualidade! Acesse: http://br.acesso.yahoo.com/


From mfranklin1 at gatwick.westerngeco.slb.com  Wed Aug 25 06:40:53 2004
From: mfranklin1 at gatwick.westerngeco.slb.com (Martin Franklin)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:40:53 +0100
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <opsdaamfzh13dtg9@dhcp-230-2e99.gatwick.eur.slb.com>

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:20:31 GMT, Lucas Raab <pythongnome at hotmail.com>  
wrote:

> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....
>
>

I'm 31 I've been _using_ since 1999 my first post to this new group was
in 2000.  Python is my first real programming language (a little bit of
basic on the Spectrum 48 (k!) bbc basic at upper school (13-16)

I've since learned Java and C#  - my main language is still Python


waiting-for-the-decorator-discussion-to-stop-ly

Martin


-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/


From nicksjacobson at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 16 15:06:52 2004
From: nicksjacobson at yahoo.com (Nick Jacobson)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 12:06:52 -0700
Subject: Simple exceptions question
Message-ID: <f8097096.0408161106.6292244f@posting.google.com>

Say I have a function foo that throws an IndexError exception, and I
want to handle it:

def foo(a, b, c):
    print a[10], b[10], c[10] #, etc.

def main():
    #define vars
    try:
        foo(a, b, c)
    except IndexError:
        print "Accessed array ", x, " out of bounds!" #???

When the exception is thrown, I don't know what triggered it!  a, b,
or c?

I could put a series of if statements in the except clause, but that
defeats the whole purpose of having the exception, right?  Is there a
better way?

Thanks in advance!

--Nick


From s.mail at westo.at  Thu Aug 26 13:48:18 2004
From: s.mail at westo.at (Stefan Stolz)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 19:48:18 +0200
Subject: Mysql in Python?
Message-ID: <2p6m32Fh7o9oU1@uni-berlin.de>

Hello,
i tried to find something about mysql in www.python.org, but found
nothing...
What can you recommend to use for getting and putting data from and into a
mysql database?
On my Suse 9.1 i found a rpm python-mysql. In the web i found the hk_classes
from www.knoda.org. This should do also such things.
Can you recommend something? What do you use?
Thank you very much for the info.
-- 
Gr?sse/Greets
Stolz Stefan


From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Wed Aug 18 10:48:07 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 10:48:07 -0400
Subject: Databases: Getting values by column name
In-Reply-To: <nvfav1-1nq.ln1@pilz.hasos.com>
References: <o6f9v1-6si.ln1@pilz.hasos.com>
	<mailman.1802.1092753679.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<u62av1-o3k.ln1@pilz.hasos.com>
	<rpydnSodp-Q1Gb_cRVn-pg@giganews.com>
	<nvfav1-1nq.ln1@pilz.hasos.com>
Message-ID: <ufOdnVjl_YS68b7cRVn-hw@giganews.com>

Robert Ferber wrote:


>>As other pointed out you have everything you need, using dtuple.py at:
>>
>>http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/81252
> 
> Of course I looked at that webpage, but if I'm not mistaken, mx.ODBC.Windows
> is only available on Windows which makes it useless for me, I can not find
> a ODBC Package for my Linux distribution and the webpage doesn't give the
> slightest hint what the package name is (which probably would make
> searching for it too easy) or where to get it.

The dtuple.py module is database independent and will work with just
about all database connectors.

The fact that the example uses mx.ODBC.Windows is completely
irrelevant it will work the same way with every other connector.

 > I didn't know that the Python-community was infested by so much
 > Microsoft-only code. Both of your hints seem to be Win-only. And it's
 >" Alpha quality".

Heh, while I would agree that the formatting on the page
is both slightly misleading and does not visually separate the
different downloads well, you'd save yourself a lot of aggravation
just by spending a little more time on each of these pages.

The module that I (and others) talked about is called db_row and
is located right above the on one you talk about (the windows
specific database *driver*).

Istvan.



From google at daishi.fastmail.fm  Fri Aug 20 15:07:22 2004
From: google at daishi.fastmail.fm (daishi)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 12:07:22 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <d22692a3.0408201107.46b5ca52@posting.google.com>

C1 C1 C1

If we are allowed to make negative votes:

-J2 -J2 -J2

I personally find J2 worse than the current pie
syntax. Something that looks odd and does something
odd seems the lesser evil vs something that looks
normal yet does something odd.

Also, it seems the options in J have very little
to do with each other. E.g., I would actually
support J1.


From janeaustine50 at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 13 01:46:27 2004
From: janeaustine50 at hotmail.com (Jane Austine)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 22:46:27 -0700
Subject: Why can't  pickle dump this instance?
Message-ID: <ba1e306f.0408122146.703311d5@posting.google.com>

Hi.

class A:
    def __init__(self,tick):
        if tick:
            self.foo=self.bar
        else:
            self.foo=self.bur
    def bar(self):
        print 'bar'
    def bur(self):
        print 'bur'

import pickle
pickle.dumps(A())

running this script results in "TypeError: can't pickle function objects"

Why does this happen? and what can I do?

Jane


From spam at mouse-potato.com  Thu Aug 26 21:36:37 2004
From: spam at mouse-potato.com (Pascal Bourguignon)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 03:36:37 +0200
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
Message-ID: <87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>

otto.wyss at orpatec.ch (Otto Wyss) writes:

> Xah Lee <xah at xahlee.org> wrote:
> 
> > this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl.
> > 
> What you mean with Unixism?

It's always funny to observe people's contradictions:
    
    
    Last week i bought a chain saw with a
    twisted handle. Perhaps i wasn't
    careful, but by accident it chopped one
    of my arm off, then i thought to myself
    "gosh, this is POWERFUL!". This seems to
    be the fashionable mode of thinking
    among the unixers or unixer-to-be, who
    would equate power and flexibility with
    rawness and complexity; disciplined by
    repeated accidents. Such a tool would
    first chop off the user's brain, molding
    a mass of brainless imbeciles and
    microcephalic charlatans the likes of
    Larry Wall and Linus Torvald jolly
    asses. --Xah Lee


$ telnet xahlee.org 80;
Trying 208.186.130.4...
Connected to xahlee.org.
Escape character is '^]'.
GET / HTTP/1.1

HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:35:52 GMT
Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never
stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and
neither do we.


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 00:05:26 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:05:26 +1000
Subject: On consensus decision-making (was Re: Alternative decorator
	syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WEDONE?)
In-Reply-To: <2p52tbFh1eb5U1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <mailman.2153.1093185119.5135.python-list@python.org>	<z-adnRDpSpoTJrXcRVn-iw@powergate.ca>	<cgdbi8$5re$1@panix2.panix.com>
	<CsmdnSOL1aXP3LfcRVn-vg@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.2259.1093320891.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<tZOdnSEokOGcWrfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca> <2p52tbFh1eb5U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082521056ee69a24@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:14:48 +1200, Greg Ewing
<greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> Peter Hansen wrote:
> >
> > Has anything really changed?  Would it now be correct to say
> > that C1 has a serious chance of being accepted if someone would
> > just update the implementation to the state and quality (?) of
> > the other two?
> 
> In a recent python-dev message, Guido said that, if it
> were the agreed-upon alternative, he would reconsider it.

No implementation means that this isn't likely...


From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 19 16:09:12 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:09:12 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <10ia1a9jm9tkuca@corp.supernews.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<10ia1a9jm9tkuca@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <dpWdnT7p6KbzlbjcRVn-jw@powergate.ca>

Jeff Shannon wrote:
> My votes:  J2   J2  E2

I second that.  (J2 J2 E2)

-Peter


From wweston at att.net  Tue Aug 24 15:34:46 2004
From: wweston at att.net (wes weston)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:34:46 GMT
Subject: Printing date a file
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2296.1093373725.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2296.1093373725.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <qLMWc.243209$OB3.21186@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>

Kory Wheatley wrote:
> In Python how would you print the date in a file, I
> have a logging program written in python and for each
> new recorded added to the file, I would like to print
> the 
> date, something like this below:
> 
> 08/24/2004 or 08-24-2004
> 
> --
> Kory Wheatley
> 
> 
> 		
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 

Kory,
    Works. Maybe a better way.
wes

 >>> import datetime
 >>> d = datetime.datetime(2004,1,1).today()
 >>> d
datetime.datetime(2004, 8, 24, 12, 29, 25, 784935)
 >>> d.year
2004
 >>> d.month
8
 >>> d.day
24



From elainejackson7355 at home.com  Tue Aug 31 14:10:13 2004
From: elainejackson7355 at home.com (Elaine Jackson)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 18:10:13 GMT
Subject: Splitting a list
References: <mailman.2673.1093960462.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <9a3Zc.284965$J06.148496@pd7tw2no>

def indices(x,y):
    if y in x:
        i = x.index(y)
        j = i+1
        return [i]+[z+j for z in indices(x[j:],y)]
    return []

def listSplit(x,y):
    z = [-1] + indices(x,y) + [len(x)]
    return [x[z[i]+1:z[i+1]] for i in range(len(z)-1)]


"Ian Sparks" <Ian.Sparks at etrials.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2673.1093960462.5135.python-list at python.org...
string.split() is very useful, but what if I want to split a list of integers on
some element value?

 e.g. :

>> l = [1,2,3,-1,4,5,-1,8,9]
>> l.split(-1)
>> [[1,2,3],[4,5],[8,9]]

Here's my hideous first pass :

>> [[int(z) for z in x.split(',') if z] for x in ','.join([str(a) for a in
l]).split('-1')]
>> [[1, 2, 3], [4, 5], [8, 9]]

When I see code like that I just know I've missed something obvious....






From brent.hughes at comcast.net  Mon Aug 23 15:58:38 2004
From: brent.hughes at comcast.net (Brent W. Hughes)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:58:38 GMT
Subject: Why are strings immutable?
References: <chzVc.288437$a24.71659@attbi_s03>
	<ibednRPmoMofVbvcRVn-oA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <O%rWc.171256$8_6.61890@attbi_s04>

Let me give two examples of where I think it would be nice to be able to
change strings in place:


First example:

I want to add about 20,000 words to the end of a string, something like
this:

Str = [ ]
for i in range(20000):
 Word = DoSomeProcessing()
 Str += Word

I'd actually like to say Str.extend(Word).  As it is, I'm thinking of
something like this:

List = [ ]
for i in range(20000):
 Word = DoSomeProcessing()
 List.extend(list(Word))
Str = ''.join(List)


Second example:

I would like to reverse a string containing about 120,000 characters.  I'd
like to do it in place, but I'm planning to do something like this:

List = list(Str)
List.reverse()
Str = ''.join(List)




From j_mckitrick at bigfoot.com  Tue Aug 17 11:53:35 2004
From: j_mckitrick at bigfoot.com (j_mckitrick)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 08:53:35 -0700
Subject: Problem with floating point precision
Message-ID: <ec6dce8b.0408170538.1f0211d2@posting.google.com>

I checked the docs, but found nothing about floating point issues.

I am working on an app that deals with currency values, and only does
addition and subtraction (no division).  But I am starting to see
values that should be the same failing a compare!  What is the
workaround or correct way to compare 2 floats?  It worked fine for
months, then suddenly starting acting odd.  I might have upgraded
Python somewhere in between, I can't recall.

jonathon


From agriff at tin.it  Tue Aug 24 02:35:45 2004
From: agriff at tin.it (Andrea Griffini)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 06:35:45 GMT
Subject: python doesn't like my numbers
References: <2osfspFdnjbcU1@uni-berlin.de> <2osm7nFe3t34U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <uonli011310kfrahp9o77q1oqcbhtpd30s@4ax.com>

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 18:52:50 -0400, Leif K-Brooks
<eurleif at ecritters.biz> wrote:

>paul k wrote:
>> is there any way to convince python not to take my (phone)numbers 
>> starting with zero as octals?
>> 
>>  >>> int(088)
>>   File "<stdin>", line 1
>>     int(088)
>>           ^
>> SyntaxError: invalid token
>
>Why do they have to start with zeros in your source code?

My guess is that his program was simply using "input()"

Im rather new to python and I've to say that I found quite
surprising that the "input" function does also evaluate
(so entering "1+1" i get the number 2 and not the string
"1+1") and that I've to use "raw_input" to get what the
user typed in.

Andrea


From eppstein at ics.uci.edu  Tue Aug 10 13:02:30 2004
From: eppstein at ics.uci.edu (David Eppstein)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:02:30 -0700
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar,
	but for what exactly? (decorator libraries).
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
	<mailman.1352.1091953503.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-0D45FB.09322108082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1359.1091973019.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-032D22.10191908082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1360.1091975279.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-B29ABA.10463808082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1361.1091977078.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<d11dcfba.0408100855.3ac0bf9c@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <eppstein-02657E.10023010082004@news.service.uci.edu>

In article <d11dcfba.0408100855.3ac0bf9c at posting.google.com>,
 steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard) wrote:

> I don't remember who, but someone already mentioned that you can do
> all of these things with the limited syntax if you really want to,
> either with operator.* or eval:
> 
> @eval("foo().bar()")
> @eval("foo or bar")
> @operator.getitem(mydecorators, 'foo')
> @eval("lambda f: foo(f) or bar(f)")

A little more cleanly like this?

def id(x): return x

@id(foo().bar())
@id(foo or bar)
@id(mydecorators['foo'])
@id(lambda f: foo(f) or bar(f))

-- 
David Eppstein
Computer Science Dept., Univ. of California, Irvine
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/


From BrenBarn at aol.com  Wed Aug 18 10:46:04 2004
From: BrenBarn at aol.com (OKB (not okblacke))
Date: 18 Aug 2004 14:46:04 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<cfvi4r$bn7$1@news.tue.nl>
Message-ID: <Xns95494EF82A609OKB@130.133.1.4>

Gerrit Muller wrote:

> how many teeners are still programming? Most teeners I know build 
> websites, but they don't program.

    	I turned 20 about 6 months ago and I've been goofing around with 
Python for about 2 years.  I'd also been programming in other languages 
(like Basic :-) for a long time before that.

-- 
--OKB (not okblacke)
Brendan Barnwell
"Do not follow where the path may lead.  Go, instead, where there is
no path, and leave a trail."
	--author unknown


From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 12 20:08:38 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 20:08:38 -0400
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
In-Reply-To: <10hnvtn1184q773@corp.supernews.com>
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
	<60dfb6f6.0408111846.615ee9eb@posting.google.com>
	<3YWdnYxLf--ObofcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<cffbbu$amv$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk> <411ba1db$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<EvadnaCm3bK0NIbcRVn-iQ@powergate.ca> <411bd3f0$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<10hnqqm8h7b3k89@corp.supernews.com> <411bfa47$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<10hnvtn1184q773@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <411c0687@nntp.zianet.com>

Jeff Shannon wrote:
> Mark Bottjer wrote:
>> BTW: "ISTM"?
> 
> "... it seems to me ..."  :)

Ah! GTK :)

> I'd be happiest with this option, too.  But it seems that GvR has 
> already ruled out anything other than prefix syntax, so I'm not 
> wasting my energy backing this.

That's why I hadn't mentioned it before now, either. Not much point.

> With prefix syntax as a given, I'd prefer to have the closest we can 
> come to this form, which is to have the meta (or decorate, or 
> whatever) block immediately preceding the def.

Personally, I think that the most "Pythonic" prefix form would be:

class C:
   decorate (d1, d2, d3):
     def f(self):
       pass

But down that road lies madness... *ducks*

> Though I must say, I don't see how putting a meta: block inside the 
> function is any less a violation of established patterns than having 
> it outside the function.  You seem to be implying that you think it's
>  fine inside, but an abomination outside.

Not an abomination, no. I just think it fits better inside. It's nicely 
scoped, it's contents are well delineated, it doesn't couple with the 
next statement at the same indentation level, and plays nicely with 
where we already look for the docstring (for now). Of course, it couples 
with the outer scope, but docstrings already set the precedent for that.

It just seems more "Pythonic" to me to have it inside, is all.

> I'm saying that this sort of block structure is (IMO) the most
> pythonic way to do this, and while I'd like it inside I don't
> particularly care if it's outside, and that in any case it's far less
> of an abomination that @pies are.  :)

There's that word again... :)

   -- Mark


From peter at engcorp.com  Sun Aug 22 11:23:54 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:23:54 -0400
Subject: Python future performance and speed
In-Reply-To: <278de0e.0408220636.3ee25f9d@posting.google.com>
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<278de0e.0408220636.3ee25f9d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <mYGdnT5L6pqMJ7XcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>

Neuruss wrote:

>>What makes you think speed is Python's primary limitation for mainstream
>>acceptance?
> 
> Why would someone reject to use a language that is clean, very well
> designed, intuitive, expresive, flexible and a pleasure to use?
> Perhaps the fact that i is 100 times slower than c...

Statements like that serve only to demonstrate the narrowness of
thought of the writer.

In some cases, often contrived examples or with poorly written code,
Python can be about 100 times slower than C.

Much more often it lies somewhere between 10 and 30 times slower.

In a surprising number of cases, it is faster than 10 times
slower and in a few cases it can even achieve rough parity.

And if we have to rehash the old arguments again for those who haven't
taken the time to search the archives, we can point out once
more things like how a Python program will be completed much
sooner than the C program, resulting in lots of extra time to
run the program (and many programs are not run very often).

We can also point to the fact that most performance issues are
more heavily affected by poor algorithms than by anything else,
and the Python programmer has both the tools and the time to
improve the algorithms whereas the C programmer will not...

-Peter


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 03:25:44 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 17:25:44 +1000
Subject: decorator with keyword
In-Reply-To: <X5qdnYdQdNYRsoHcRVn-rA@powergate.ca>
References: <cffcir$q5p$02$1@news.t-online.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121024260.3440-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<ArGdnWxZ4Z5ZH4bcRVn-vA@powergate.ca>
	<2o21foF65snnU2@uni-berlin.de> <X5qdnYdQdNYRsoHcRVn-rA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040813002527157f9f@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:03:39 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> Reinhold Birkenfeld wrote:
> > I'm sure it would help if every supporter of this syntax started a
> > thread of his own on python-dev *wink*
> Glad you put the wink in... I doubt that would help the
> cause.

And Brett Cannon would probably have you whacked if you did it.


> that there
> is a fairly wide consensus that decorate: (possibly with
> a different keyword) is far preferred to @pie... 

FWIW, I still prefer pie-decorators to decorate. That's just
from translating my trusty decorator-testbed-code into it.

> At least,
> I think that was roughly what was asked for of the masses,
> if the masses had anything to say about the matter.

Pretty much - although the theory was that there would need
to be a discussion on technical merits of one over the other,
rather than "here's a list of people who prefer this or that".
But you knew that already...


From leor at bdsoft.com  Sun Aug 29 21:20:43 2004
From: leor at bdsoft.com (Leor Zolman)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 01:20:43 GMT
Subject: simple compiled languages?
References: <7xzn4fu188.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<_1bYc.855$2s.374@twister.nyroc.rr.com>
	<7xbrguvfn6.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<jNbYc.49640$Kt5.6261@twister.nyroc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <psv4j0p9inej073bta5m9r6ug4ko6iiojk@4ax.com>

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 03:09:03 GMT, "Cy Edmunds"
<cedmunds at spamless.rochester.rr.com> wrote:

>"Paul Rubin" <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> wrote in message
>news:7xbrguvfn6.fsf at ruckus.brouhaha.com...
>> "Cy Edmunds" <cedmunds at spamless.rochester.rr.com> writes:
>> > Turbo Pascal. I used to think it was great in 1983. :)
>>
>> Yeah, they never released the source code though.  I should have added
>> that as a qualification.
>>
>> BDS C was released, by the way, but it's written entirely in 8080
>> assembler.
>
>Ah, yes. "Brain Dead Software". Great name. lol

"Brain Damage" software, actually. A Tribute to Dark Side of the Moon, sort
of the official album of the dorm I'd been living in shortly before writing
BDS C.

In case anyone's interested, this is the home page for it these days:

http://www.bdsoft.com/resources/bdsc.html

I really have to find some time to learn Python. My 12-year-old daughter
asked me about the difference between C, C++, Java and Python the other
day. I tried to explain it as best I could, and she then said she wanted to
learn Python. I gave her the book and asked her to teach it to *me* after
she figured it out ;-)
	-leor


-- 
Leor Zolman --- BD Software --- www.bdsoft.com
On-Site Training in C/C++, Java, Perl and Unix  
C++ users: download BD Software's free STL Error Message Decryptor at:
   www.bdsoft.com/tools/stlfilt.html


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Wed Aug 18 09:45:45 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:45:45 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408180937570.32166-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Lucas Raab wrote:

> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....

I'm 19.  The only other Python programmer I know personally is 21.  
Congrats on discovering Python at 14; back then I thought VB was a godsend. ;)



From jjl at pobox.com  Wed Aug 11 19:42:01 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 00:42:01 +0100
Subject: 'break' Causes Execution of Procedure?
References: <cfdif9$hhm$1@news01.intel.com> <cfdl76$j1m$1@news01.intel.com>
Message-ID: <871xidqm2e.fsf@pobox.com>

"Scott Brady Drummonds" <scott.b.drummonds.nospam at intel.com> writes:
[...]
> DEBUG: advancing both simulators to 20178
[...]

Is this a threaded program?


John


From twanger at bluetwanger.de  Tue Aug 10 08:19:05 2004
From: twanger at bluetwanger.de (Markus Bertheau)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:19:05 +0200
Subject: Multiple inheritance with a common base class
In-Reply-To: <1092137872.2624.16.camel@dicaprio.akademie1.de>
References: <1092137872.2624.16.camel@dicaprio.akademie1.de>
Message-ID: <1092140345.2624.28.camel@dicaprio.akademie1.de>

? ???, 10.08.2004, ? 13:37, Markus Bertheau ?????:

Also I observe that the instance will in fact _not_ have a single copy
of the data attributes used by the common base class. The following
example demonstrates this:

class CommonBase:
    def __init__(self):
        self.no = 0
    def setNo(self, no):
        self.no = no
 
class LeafA(CommonBase):
    def __init__(self):
        CommonBase.__init__(self)
        print("CommonBase.no: %i" % self.no)
        CommonBase.setNo(self, 3)
 
class LeafB(CommonBase):
    def __init__(self):
        CommonBase.__init__(self)
        print("CommonBase.no: %i" % self.no)
        CommonBase.setNo(self, 4)
 
class Multi(LeafA, LeafB):
    def __init__(self):
        LeafA.__init__(self)
        LeafB.__init__(self)
 
m = Multi()

It outputs:

CommonBase.no: 0
CommonBase.no: 0

If there was only one copy of the common base class, I'd have expected
an output similar to

CommonBase.no: 0
CommonBase.no: 3

This renders multiple inheritance pretty useless for me.

Can someone clear this all up and tell me how multiple inheritance is
supposed to work in python?

Thanks

-- 
Markus Bertheau <twanger at bluetwanger.de>



From arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE  Mon Aug 16 14:38:46 2004
From: arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE (Arien Malec)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:38:46 GMT
Subject: PEP 318 decorators are not Decorators
References: <Xns9543CB4CF5EDFarienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.7>
	<cfhsri$a1q$1@news1.wdf.sap-ag.de>
	<Xns95446284A8DA2arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.29>
	<mailman.1625.1092418237.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Xns9544A70A17365arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>
	<mailman.1662.1092523102.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Xns9546756484138arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.29>
	<Ns3Uc.5169$Tr.369640@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <Xns954776E785901arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.29>

"Colin J. Williams" <cjw at sympatico.ca> wrote in
news:Ns3Uc.5169$Tr.369640 at news20.bellglobal.com: 
> Arien Malec wrote:
>> Clearly, Python can choose any name for the
>> auto-function-transformation syntax in question, but it's rather
>> willfully confusing to choose a name that's heavily identified with a
>> profoundly different semantics that's superficially similar in
>> intent. 

> This is especially confusing as, in everyday english usage, to
> decorate is not the same as to transform.
> 
> Perhaps "transform" could be consdered as an alternative.

That would be my leaning, as well. Ideally, the name would make it clear 
that the application order of the transformations is significant....

Arien


From jerf at jerf.org  Tue Aug 31 13:04:22 2004
From: jerf at jerf.org (Jeremy Bowers)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:04:22 GMT
Subject: "Content-Length" header
References: <ch07ui$edo@odbk17.prod.google.com>
	<96c2e938.0408302057.61df147b@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.31.13.04.27.995780@jerf.org>

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 21:57:02 -0700, G. S. Hayes wrote:
> Something related to think about: if most users use only letters in their
> passwords, making the passwords case-insensitive potentially makes it take
> crackers HALF the time to crack a password by brute force.

Much worse than that.

Assuming 8 letters only:

Both cases: 52 ^ 8: 53,459,728,531,456 (53 trillion)
One case  : 26 ^ 8: 208,827,064,576 (208 billion)

It's halved *per character*.

Moral of the story: Use symbols and mix cases in your passwords; you want
to get to the bigger spaces for security. Both cases + numbers + symbols
can reasonably come to 92 chars on a standard (american) keyboard, for a
total of 92 ^ 8 passwords = 5,132,188,731,375,616 (5 quadrillion).


From robin at reportlab.com  Wed Aug 18 09:44:23 2004
From: robin at reportlab.com (Robin Becker)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:44:23 +0100
Subject: Python-2.1.x.tgz
Message-ID: <41235D37.7060102@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>

Does anyone know where I can get the latest source for Python-2.1. I looked in 
www.python.org/2.1 and seem to see only Python-2.1.tgz.
-- 
Robin Becker


From jacek.generowicz at cern.ch  Mon Aug 30 04:52:27 2004
From: jacek.generowicz at cern.ch (Jacek Generowicz)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 10:52:27 +0200
Subject: Generator expressions v/s list comprehensions
References: <mahesh-525B07.12195528082004@individual.net>
	<1gj8y77.6qshr41q531veN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<mahesh-7E265C.14093428082004@individual.net>
	<87llfywooz.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<mahesh-F76AD6.17094429082004@individual.net>
	<1gjbs1e.assxlxlud1m0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xbrgtrq4r.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <tyfllfxnh2s.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>

Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> writes:

> Those features are in other languages for a reason, and there's been
> enough experience using them (in those languages) that their
> desirability for Python should never have seriously been in
> question.

While I feel a lot of sympathy towards this statement in principle,
the other side of the coin is extremely important too. One of Python's
strengths is exactly that it does _not_ import many tried and tested
features from other languages (braces as delimiters, access
restriction, static typing, meaningful line noise, etc.) However, it
is also one of its weaknesses (nested scopes, for example, as you
mentioned). It all depends on the actual feature in question, and the
programmer in question.

> So it would have been better to include them from the beginning,
> instead of through separate episodes of prolonged agony for each
> one.

Python occupies some position in the space of all possible programming
languages. Its position changes, as the language evolves. The language
evolves because the Python community pushes it in some direction that
it considers to be a good one. Judgements about which directions are
good, come from experience with using the language. The language
evolves into one which the community finds more useful, the language
arrives at some local maximum in programming language space. You would
like it to have been placed at the local maximum in the first
place. So would I, but that is not realistically possible.

And remember, the landscape looks very different from different
people's perspectives, what might look like a local maximum to you,
might seem to be in a deep trench from my point of view. Macros,
anyone? Lambda?


From news at woody.datatailors.com  Fri Aug 13 07:49:45 2004
From: news at woody.datatailors.com (Peter van Kampen)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:49:45 +0200
Subject: Blocking the execution of a script
References: <mailman.1606.1092393719.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnchpamp.t2u.news@woody.datatailors.com>

In article <mailman.1606.1092393719.5135.python-list at python.org>, Angelo Secchi wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I would like Python to interrupt the execution of a script in case an if
> condition turns out to be TRUE. What is the proper way to do that?
> 
> Thanks,
> a. 

import sys

if cond:
   sys.exit(1)


Hth,

PterK

-- 
Peter van Kampen
pterk -- at -- datatailors.com


From cass at skynet.be  Thu Aug 26 15:03:21 2004
From: cass at skynet.be (Guillaume Desmottes)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 21:03:21 +0200
Subject: Install a gconf schemas with distutils
Message-ID: <1093547000.13838.0.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Hi!

I would like to use distutils to install a gconf schemas.

The distutils doc is very poor and I don't understand how to make that.

The 'manual' command is: 
GCONF_CONFIG_SOURCE=`gconftool-2 --get-default-source` gconftool-2
--makefile-install-rule my_file.schemas 

Thanks a lot.

        G.

-- 
Guillaume Desmottes <cass at skynet.be>
Jabber <cassidy at playgroup.ath.cx>
GPG 1024D/711E31B1 | 1B5A 1BA8 11AA F0F1 2169  E28A AC55 8671 711E 31B1

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From cckk_lin at yahoo.ie  Mon Aug 30 20:57:45 2004
From: cckk_lin at yahoo.ie (Lin Jingxian)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 08:57:45 +0800
Subject: use win32 COM in python
References: <cguo6j$j67$1@news.yaako.com>
Message-ID: <ch0ie8$8bg$1@news.yaako.com>

thanks, Dave and Peter
I can use pythoncom, but since there isn't pointer in python (is it?), I
dont know how to call the : int read(unsigned char* buf, int length) method
in python.what unsigned char* buf should be represented in python?thanks
again.

"Lin Jingxian" <cckk_lin at yahoo.ie> ????????
news:cguo6j$j67$1 at news.yaako.com...
> hi,
>   I have a C++ implemented COM server that give out a method like: int
> read(unsigned char* buf, int lenth), How can I use this method from
python?
> what is the signature?
> or anyone can tell me how should I design the COM interface so I can use
> python to read a chunk of bytes from a C++ implemented COM server.
>
> thanks.
>
>




From raims at dot.com  Thu Aug  5 05:23:59 2004
From: raims at dot.com (Lawrence Oluyede)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 11:23:59 +0200
Subject: Need help on how to use Pymedia!
References: <AXgQc.508$nx2.344@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3x8w4pqd3emo.15wp1jkrwkqua.dlg@40tude.net>

In data Thu, 05 Aug 2004 02:28:48 GMT, CptPicard ha scritto:

> Could someone give me a more detailed documentation on pymedia or some clues
> on how to get the information I need ?

AFAIK Pymedia cannot extract ID3 infos from MP3 (altough you can study by
yourself the ID3 format a inspect the raw info of the file), anyway the web
is full of ID3 tools for python such as:
http://id3-py.sourceforge.net/

bye!

-- 
Lawrence (l dot oluyede at virgilio dot it)
"In IE we trust"


From arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE  Thu Aug 19 21:03:53 2004
From: arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE (Arien Malec)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 01:03:53 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Xns954AB8327A955arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.7>

"Paul McGuire" <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> wrote in
news:t07Vc.1179$v86.188 at fe2.texas.rr.com: 

> There are a number of messages on the python-dev mail list that
> indicate that Guido is looking for some concensus to come from this
> list as to what *one* alternative syntax for decorators

M, any keyword option using "transform"

(I care more about semantics than syntax)

Arien


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Fri Aug  6 09:44:55 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 08:44:55 -0500
Subject: [Newby question] List comprehension
References: <pan.2004.08.06.13.22.50.75041@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <EIKdnTKi6P_JFo7cRVn-uw@comcast.com>

Actually I think (??) this is better done in a loop:
(not tested)

toc=[]
for root, dir, files in os.walk(os.path.abspath('.')):
    mp3files=[f for f in files if f.lower().endswith('.mp3')]
    if mp3files: toc.append((root, mp3files))


HTH,
Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.

"Eelco Hoekema" <eelco.usenet at xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.08.06.13.22.50.75041 at xs4all.nl...
>
> I'm trying to get a list of tuples, with each tuple consisting of a
> directory, and a list of files. I only want a tuple if and only if the
> filtered list of files is not empty. And, i want the list of files in the
> tuples to be filtered. For this, i came up with the following code:
>
> <code>
>
> # song filter: will return true if the file seems to be an mp3 file.
> # (may not be the best way to do this)
> def song(f):
>     (name, ext) = os.path.splitext(f)
>     return ext.lower() == '.mp3'
>
> # list comprehension walking through a directory tree
> [(root, filter(song, files)) for (root, dir, files) in
os.walk(os.path.abspath('.')) if filter(song, files)]
>
>
> </code>
>
> Now, this will work. However, it seems kind of silly to call the filter
> twice. Is there a way to keep this in one list comprehension, but with
> just filtering once?
>
> eelco
>
>




From BruceWhoHKL at gawab.com  Wed Aug 18 04:23:33 2004
From: BruceWhoHKL at gawab.com (BruceKL WhoH)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:23:33 +0800
Subject: metaclass ???
Message-ID: <20040818082245.89FEA1E4003@bag.python.org>

Hi,
     I have just read David Mertz's Metaclass programming in Python,but I'm still confused.
can someone show me an example to explain when metaclass is needed?
     I think metaclass can be treated as a class factory,but how to specify the class generated? For example:

class ChattyType(type):
    def __new__(cls, name, bases, dct):
        print "Allocating memory for class", name
        return type.__new__(cls, name, bases, dct)
    def __init__(cls, name, bases, dct):
        print "Init'ing (configuring) class", name
        super(ChattyType, cls).__init__(name, bases, dct)

if I want to create two different class A and B with different behaviours like this :

A = ChattyType(arg='xxx')
B = ChattyType(arg='yyy')

how to modify the ChattyType code ?		

????????BruceKL WhoH
????????BruceWhoHKL at gawab.com
??????????2004-08-18

From egbert.list at hccnet.nl  Thu Aug 19 17:17:07 2004
From: egbert.list at hccnet.nl (Egbert Bouwman)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:17:07 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20040819211707.GA4399@mirk.lan>

My vote: C1  D1 K
egbert
-- 
Egbert Bouwman - Keizersgracht 197 II - 1016 DS  Amsterdam - 020 6257991
========================================================================


From pythongnome at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 18 08:51:29 2004
From: pythongnome at hotmail.com (Lucas Raab)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:51:29 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<cfvi4r$bn7$1@news.tue.nl>
Message-ID: <lhIUc.1565$2L3.912@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>

I myself am only 14. I've been programming for two years with Python. I've
tried C++, but found it a pain in the area that Preparation H fixes. I got
started programming with Python as a result of a 4-H computer science
project. I was looking for a free, easy to learn language and happily found
it with Python. I'm currently interested in the network-centered areas of
Python.

"Gerrit Muller" <gerrit.muller at embeddedsystems.nl> wrote in message
news:cfvi4r$bn7$1 at news.tue.nl...
> Most Python programmers I know are 40+. I am myself 47 (born in december
> 1956).
>
> regards Gerrit
>
> P.S.,
>
> how many teeners are still programming? Most teeners I know build
> websites, but they don't program.
>
> -- 
> Gaudi systems architecting:
> <http://www.extra.research.philips.com/natlab/sysarch/>
>




From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug  9 19:49:38 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 19:49:38 -0400
Subject: Purely emotional perspective
In-Reply-To: <10hg1hg1pidqs96@corp.supernews.com>
References: <10hf3oaltbo7o74@corp.supernews.com>
	<AYSdnQ2xPrfFPYrcRVn-iA@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1400.1092070428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<XqSdnTW-4KvRIIrcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
	<pan.2004.08.09.21.20.59.953540@hotmail.com>
	<10hg1hg1pidqs96@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <GrGdnfPcQZ4JkIXcRVn-vA@powergate.ca>

Jeff Shannon wrote:

> Personally, I'm seeing more and more usefulness in decorators as the 
> discussion progresses, and I'm seeing more reasons why the most obvious 
> alternatives to the currently proposed syntax are not optimal.  But I 
> still find the current syntax to be *extremely* (painfully) 
> uncomfortable -- this sort of prefix syntax is unlike anything else *I* 
> can think of in Python.

That's precisely my feeling at this point as well.  Oddly
enough, I think with the slight change to use | instead of
@ (or perhaps even Barry's preferred =) it would be easier to
swallow.  Fundamentally though it is things like the strangeness
of these lines that are somehow "bound" to the following (next)
function definition, yet have no connection to it other than
coming at the same indentation level.  (At least the | syntax
does feel like it has a visual "link" to the following def.)

And the reversed order of application (non-intuitive, I feel).

And the restriction to dotted names instead of arbitrary expressions,
making it feel even more weird and non-Pythonic (and that in spite
of the workarounds that have been shown for perhaps all cases
anyway).

And other subtleties.

> I'm particularly worried about the proposals of using this as metadata 
> for things like author -- that seems to be begging for almost every 
> function to use half a dozen or more decorators (accepts, returns, 
> author, design date, last revision date, etc., etc.) which will (IMO) 
> seriously degrade code readability.  (This syntax is okay for one or two 
> decorators, but more than that quickly becomes obfuscatory.)

This paragraph also seemed worth leaving in. :-)

-Peter


From tim.peters at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 01:29:08 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 01:29:08 -0400
Subject: Timing Difference: insert vs. append & reverse
In-Reply-To: <p7hQc.6692$AY5.4804@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
References: <35b736b9.0408020330.53b24ed3@posting.google.com>	<Xns953983065EEC6duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>	<1a517b5.0408031027.60554dfb@posting.google.com>	<Xns953B4F5373D3Bduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>	<1a517b5.0408041305.3927a6c8@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1159.1091655528.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<p7hQc.6692$AY5.4804@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <1f7befae0408042229365aede0@mail.gmail.com>

[Bryan Olson, on complicating the list object again, and 2.4's deque type]
> But it breaks (efficient) indexing.  Since we can have it all
> like Perl, why not?

As I said, the best Perl can do is O(1) amortized.  2.4's deque does
better than that, and that can be important in classes like Python's
Queue.Queue where threads typically block waiting for pops and pushes
(but has no use at all for random access).

If you follow the link you gave last time and read to the bottom
following the other links, you'll find that Perl lists had
quadratic-time behavior under the steady-state queue pattern for a
long time.  That was eventually fixed -- or so they say.  Small
details are both tricky and vital.  2.4's deque implementation is
obviously immune to "bad" patterns, steady-state queue or otherwise.

Most immediately damning, adding another member to the list struct (to
keep track of the "low bound") would increase the size of every list
object by 8 bytes, on 32-bit boxes.  Python lists are easy to spell,
use and access, and some Python apps use millions of small lists. 
They wouldn't appreciate the RAM hit for a mostly-useless feature. 
Most Perl programmers seem to be so confused by Perl lists that they
only use them when they have to, to shift function arguments in and
out <0.6 wink>.  That's a use case for lists Python doesn't have at
all.

You can pursue it if you want to, but with the 2.4 deque type I have
no interest in messing more with the list type.


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 21:59:34 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:59:34 +1000
Subject: Confused about pep 318
In-Reply-To: <du7k6wdqtsz.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051249050.10473-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1210.1091725930.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<e86dnZBJM6_n84_cRVn-jA@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1216.1091727619.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<du7k6wdqtsz.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204080518596d240fcc@mail.gmail.com>

On 05 Aug 2004 22:16:44 +0300, Ville Vainio <ville at spammers.com> wrote:
> The problem with @ as I see it (FWIW, of course) is that the new
> syntax wastes @ for a minor feature. I wouldn't mind @[decorator],
> which would allow reserving stuff like @private (compiler / type
> inferrer / macro / whatever) for future extension of the language.

See, that's a matter of opinion. I don't think decorators will end up 
being a "minor feature". I think they have the potential for much 
interesting meta-programming. I also don't think that hanging onto
a particular ascii glyph for "some future use" is particularly useful - 
I'm not aware of any other potential use for this. Unless we use 
it to indicate an array <wink>.


From zathras at thwackety.com  Sun Aug 22 11:45:22 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 16:45:22 +0100
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - keyword choice
References: <mailman.2136.1093150593.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<pan.2004.08.22.02.44.17.804648@jerf.org>
	<Bz2Wc.3450$_H5.31651@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <4128c45d$0$40942$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net>

Colin J. Williams wrote:
...
> Three issues which have not been discussed much are:
>      1. the purpose of the docstring in J2 preceding the funcdef.  It it
>         to describe the transformers or the function?

I'm not sure I understand this - the implementation as is doesn't make any
changes to the position of the docstring. In some examples I've put:

# Bla
# Bla
decorate:
   staticmethod
def foo(bar):
   "rhubarb"
   pass

Largely because some doc generators currently take code like:
# Bla
# Bla
def foo(bar):
   "rhubarb"
   pass

And concatenate the "Bla Bla" docs with the "rhubarb" docs. The
location/meaning of the docstring itself is left unchanged.

>      2. the placement of the extra code relative to the funcdef.
>         (incidentally, I don't find docstring in the Python grammar)

The docstring isn't handled by the grammar - it's "manually" yanked out the
codeblock during compilation. ie it's based on the semantics of codeblocks
rather than purely the syntax. I suspect that this is the key reason why
putting the extra code inside the function's code block was ruled out.

>      3. whether the PEP 318 processes are to apply to classes as well
>         as functions.

The code/grammar tend to suggest not. The implementation I've done for J2 is
really syntactic sugar on top so the semantics aren't changed from 2.4a2.
(The simplest way of testing these things really is to take the easy way
out - download, build and play :)

Regards,


Michael.



From jason at injektilo.org  Tue Aug 24 15:00:03 2004
From: jason at injektilo.org (Jason Diamond)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:00:03 -0700
Subject: fun with unicode files
In-Reply-To: <f8adneKBk6olErbcRVn-qA@adelphia.com>
References: <6579x7eo.fsf@python.net> <it9sv1-tj9.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<f8adneKBk6olErbcRVn-qA@adelphia.com>
Message-ID: <f8adnR2Bk6qpDbbcRVn-qA@adelphia.com>

Jason Diamond wrote:

> Roger Binns wrote:
> 
>> Here is my own more complete implementation:
>>
>> http://www.bitpim.org/pyxr/c/projects/bitpim/common.py.html#0286
> 
> 
> When I do import encodings.utf_32 on Python 2.3.3, I get an ImportError. 
> What verson of Python are you using where that works?
> 
> I can't find any documentation of the encodings module in the Python 
> Library Reference. Where can I read more about it?

Never mind. I continued reading your code and found the comment about 
those modules not existing (yet).

-- Jason


From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Aug 11 15:29:10 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 21:29:10 +0200
Subject: Python equivalent to a C trick
References: <1d7b6d0d.0408092255.1177908e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfds26$eg2$02$1@news.t-online.com>

Dan wrote:

> Is there a python equivalent of this trick in C?
> 
> Logic_Test ? True_Result : False_Result
> 
> Example:
> printf( "you have %i %s", num_eggs, num_eggs > 1 ? "eggs" : "egg" );

>>> def numerus(n, sg, pl=None):
...     if n == 1:
...             return article(sg)
...     elif n == 0:
...             return "no " + plural(sg, pl)
...     else:
...             return "%d %s" % (n, plural(sg, pl))
...
>>> def article(sg):
...     if sg[:1].lower() in "aeiou": # uniforms are off-limit
...             return "an " + sg
...     else:
...             return "a " + sg
...
>>> def plural(sg, pl):
...     if pl is None:
...             return sg + "s"
...     else:
...             return pl
...
>>> numerus(1, "egg")
'an egg'
>>> numerus(2, "egg")
'2 eggs'
>>> numerus(0, "egg")
'no eggs'
>>> numerus(1, "solution")
'a solution'
>>>

:-)

Refine as needed.

Peter

PS: The trick is to not use a trick.



From John.Marshall at ec.gc.ca  Wed Aug 11 11:52:26 2004
From: John.Marshall at ec.gc.ca (John Marshall)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 15:52:26 +0000
Subject: [Python-Dev] A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
In-Reply-To: <492EA476-EBAB-11D8-87F8-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <1092237417.22674.12.camel@mango.cmc.ec.gc.ca> 
	<492EA476-EBAB-11D8-87F8-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <1092239547.22674.39.camel@mango.cmc.ec.gc.ca>

On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 15:29, Bob Ippolito wrote:
> On Aug 11, 2004, at 11:16 AM, John Marshall wrote:
> 
> > How about the following, which I am almost positive
> > has not been suggested:
> > -----
> > class Klass:
> >     def __init__(self, name):
> >         self.name = name
> >
> >     deco meth0:
> >         staticmethod
> >     def meth0(x):
> >         return x
> >
> >     deco meth1:
> >         classmethod
> >     def meth1(cls):
> >         return cls
> >
> >     deco sayhello:
> >         funcattrs(name='GvR', language='python')
> >         log(file='func.log')
> >     def sayhello(self):
> >         print 'hello python world'
> >
> > -----
> > 1) The decorators clearly apply to a specific method/function,
> >    therefore there is no need to do any stack pushing in memory
> >    until the method/function definition is done.
> 
> None of that code can actually execute until the method/function 
> definition is done, how is this different at all?
> 

I am not refering to actually executing the code but
addressing people's point that when they read through
the code, they need to keep all the decorator items in
memory until they come to the "def ...". One person
described the process as push each decorator onto
a stack (in his head) until he found the def.

> > 2) The decorators are "outside" of the method/function they
> >    decorate:
> >    a) which will please those who want the outside location
> >    b) will not be folded within the function
> 
> Doesn't a) imply b)?
> 

Sure. But this addresses two concerns explicitly.

> >    c) folding on the decorators can be done so that the
> >       def is not obfuscated
> 
> This could probably be done with the @syntax too if the editor was 
> smart enough

I imagine it is possible. But the point was to make
the signature clearly visible/prominent but also indicate
that there _are_ decorators associated with the method/function.

> 
> >    d) can be located anywhere in the code--but most likely
> >       before the "def ...()"
> 
> I don't think that is a bonus at all.
> 

I am not claiming this as a bonus. Rather, I am making it clear
that the mention of the method/function name does not require
any special/forced placement.

> > 3) The sequence in which the decorators are applied is just
> >    like code would be--this is certainly intuitive given
> >    that we are writing code.
> 
> That's not really obvious.
> 

I am not claiming that it is obvious but that it could be
understood that way (rather than leave it to interpretation,
I made it explicit as an option). Note how the sequence issue
has come up recently with respect to the @-syntax and the list
syntax, which apparently have been understood to apply in the
opposite order.

> > This approach could also be applied to classes in case
> > decorators should ever be extended to them:
> 
> So can any of the other proposals.

That may be, but to be able to do so this way makes it
an viable option.

> 
> > -----
> > deco Klass:
> >     doc("This is a class to ...")
> > class Klass:
> >     :
> >     :
> > -----
> >
> > Any comments?
> 
> Yeah, this is no less than twice as bad as any of the current decorator 
> proposals because you have to repeat the function name :)
> 

Personally, I might opt for something else, but having the
decorators outside have raised concerns for some. With this
approach the tagging makes things explicit, which is often
a good thing. The current @-syntax _implicitly_ identifies
the decorators with the method/function/class which people
have said they don't like.

Thanks for the comments.

John

> -bob




From Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU  Tue Aug 17 20:56:02 2004
From: Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU (Michael J. Fromberger)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 20:56:02 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
References: <20040817181725194-0400@braeburn.themorgue.org>
Message-ID: <Michael.J.Fromberger-BA602B.20560217082004@localhost>

In article <20040817181725194-0400 at braeburn.themorgue.org>,
 Kevin Smith <Kevin.Smith at sas.com> wrote:
> 
> Bear with me, but I'd like to propose one more syntax that is simple, 
> easy for newbies to understand,  and nowhere near as powerful as the 
> current PEP's syntax.  However, it doesn't add incoherent, arbitrary 
> syntax either.
> 
> def classmethod foo(x, y, z):
>     pass
> 
> That's it.  One "decorator" that is a callable object that takes a 
> method as it's only argument.  No expressions, lists, tuples, etc.  Just 
> one callable object.  Ok, if you absolutely must have more than one.
> 
> def classmethod synchronized foo(x, y, z):
>     pass
> 
> Once again, no expressions.  I know that this isn't going to solve 
> everyone's type-checking, metadata, and function attribute problems, but 
> let's face it, using this PEP for all of those things just creates ugly 
> syntax.  There must be more Pythonic ways to do those things in their 
> own PEPs.

Kevin,

+1 for this idea.

I completely agree that the original PEP-318 proposed a simple and 
reasonable idea, and I too have been much dismayed by all that seems to 
have been grafted onto it since.  This latest idea of yours certainly 
sounds a lot more reasonable than anything else I've seen so far.  It 
solves the original well-defined problem cleanly, and probably solves 
some of the other proposed uses too.  

I would even go so far as to say:  Go ahead and restrict it to at most 
one callable object.  If someone really wants to define a flaming hot 
crossed synchronized blue classmethod foo, they can bloody well define a 
callable object that has the (in)appropriate behaviour.

I hope that perhaps cooler heads (such as yours) will prevail, and keep 
Python's syntax and semantics relatively neat and tidy.  We don't need 
the One PEP to Rule Them All, in the Land of Python where the shadows -- 
so far -- do not lie.

-M, "one more PEP out of you, mister, and you're history!" ;) 

-- 
Michael J. Fromberger             | Lecturer, Dept. of Computer Science
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~sting/  | Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA


From dperl at rogers.com  Fri Aug 27 16:23:25 2004
From: dperl at rogers.com (Dan Perl)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:23:25 GMT
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1LMXc.67190$UTP.37420@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alex Martelli" <aleaxit at yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: would be nice: import from archive


> Python 2.3 lets you import modules from a zipfile.  The zip format is
> better than tar when you just need to get one file from it, which is why
> java's jar files are also basically zipfiles.


[...]

> It's there already, and has been for over a year now;-).
>
> Alex

Alright, alright!  And given the fact that it was added only in 2.3, that
explains why I couldn't find any mention of the feature in 'Python
Cookbook', the 1st ed.  I'm looking forward to seeing it mentioned in the
2nd ed. ;-)

Dan




From http  Thu Aug 26 03:27:37 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 00:27:37 -0700
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<jt6dnb98R-eH6rDcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <7x65762wba.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> writes:
> > instance, I can't say move(Vector([a,b,c]).normalize()), I have to do
> > 	a = Vector([a,b,c])
> > 	a.normalize()
> > 	move(a)
> 
> By the way, the second version is much more readable than the first, 

That's a matter of opinion.  The lines are shorter but there are three
times as many of them.  I think programmers ought to be able to make
their own choices about this.  There are a lot of different styles
that are equally legitimate.


From insert at spam.here  Sun Aug 22 09:07:53 2004
From: insert at spam.here (Doug Holton)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 08:07:53 -0500
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WE
	DONE?
In-Reply-To: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>
References: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <t5idnRg0lMA7B7XcRVn-qA@comcast.com>

Paul McGuire wrote:
> Total voters: 55 
> Of all of the votes cast, J2
> received 48%, C1 received 18%.  No other option received more than 10% of
> any votes.

I vote 3 times for C1.  So just my one vote raises C1 to 20%.  I think 
you need to do an online poll so you get more people than just those who 
have been discussing the decorator keyword here this past week.  I got 
over 250 votes for C1 just last week vs. the 22 who voted for J2 here.
During this 2nd poll people were confused about whether they could vote 
for A1 or not, and some people said many of the options on the wiki page 
were not allowed anymore.

Just make a poll with J2 vs. C1 and see what you find.


From grv575 at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 23 18:55:31 2004
From: grv575 at hotmail.com (grv575)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 15:55:31 -0700
Subject: % format strings
Message-ID: <144d0df.0408231455.6b664466@posting.google.com>

For a string like print '%.*f' % (prec_length, float_var)
How does python convert this to a C printf sytle format string?  Is
there a way to specify the precision length for floating points in C
format strings?


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 30 09:30:39 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:30:39 -0400
Subject: PHP Documentation
In-Reply-To: <4133124f$0$281$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>
References: <4133124f$0$281$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>
Message-ID: <wpednS2Tk8udsa7cRVn-og@powergate.ca>

Guyon Mor?e wrote:

> hi, I've been working with PHP lately and what I found is that the docs are
> awesome, as is the python are python docs btw. but one thing that I really
> like about theirs is the doc-commenting system it has.
> 
> any user can comment on any page in the docs. this results in a lot of
> clarifications and examples for the subjects at hand.
> 
> is it an idea to implement this in the python docs?
> i believe it's a good idea what are your thoughts?

This comes up every month or three in this newsgroup and I think
I can summarize the comments of others by saying two things:

1) Thinking it's a good idea isn't enough if you want it: somebody
    has to implement it.  It's been suggested before, so at this
    point the next step is for someone who likes the idea enough
    to just do it.

2) Many people think that the noise created by lots of user
    comments would far outweigh the value of the good comments
    that might be hidden somewhere within.

-Peter


From fumanchu at amor.org  Wed Aug  4 13:09:14 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 10:09:14 -0700
Subject: Finding all time periods for a given interval within a date
	range
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022DD9@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Graeme Longman wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone has written some Python code which 
> uses a start
> date and end date and a given interval (day, month or year) 
> and outputs all
> the time periods for that range and interval.
> 
> For example you may wish to find all the months between the dates
> '2004-02-14' and '2004-08-04'. You would maybe use a function 
> where you pass
> in those starting and ending dates and the interval 'month' 
> and you'd get
> back a list of those months. I guess you would need to year 
> part of the date
> too, so ['2004-02', '2004-03', '2004-04', '2004-05', 
> '2004-06', '2004-07',
> '2004-08']. If you had passed in 'day' as the interval then 
> you would be
> given back a list of all the days in those months.

Look at my 'recur' module and see if it fits your requirements:

http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/index.html

Start with the Recurrence class and play with it--then dig deeper if you
need to.

HTH,


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de  Sat Aug 21 03:54:49 2004
From: 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de (510046470588-0001 at t-online.de)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 09:54:49 +0200
Subject: Fate of lambda, Functional Programming in Python...
References: <412636D1.6070808@noaa.gov>
	<mailman.2073.1093028474.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<41265E67.A08409A6@juno.com> <2on5k1FcjmvdU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<4dxun9nvgeaz.dlg@baczek.net.invalid>
Message-ID: <87y8k9hqnq.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>

Marek Baczy?ski <imbaczek-nospam at poczta.fm.cut-from-here.no-spam.info> writes:
> 
> [lambda x, y: x+y, lambda x, y: x*y, ... (etc.)]
> 
> I don't say it's impossible, but largely superfluous. (Note that this
> *particular* case can be (better) solved by operator.*.)

i find infix notation disgusting, thus refuse to use it globally.

may map, filter, reduce be implemented in pure python if they
weren't built-in? scheme e.g. does not have built-in filter,
but may implement it on the fly.


may lambda be implemented with exec if it isn't built-in?
i've seen something like this done in php4 by E. Ellingsen.
would that work in crippled python, too?

Klaus Schilling


From rnd at onego.ru  Wed Aug 18 15:09:49 2004
From: rnd at onego.ru (Roman Suzi)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 23:09:49 +0400 (MSD)
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408182308530.9293@rnd.onego.ru>

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Lucas Raab wrote:

>One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
>Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
>about....

I am still younger than average Python programmer:

30


Sincerely yours, Roman Suzi
-- 
rnd at onego.ru =\= My AI powered by GNU/Linux RedHat 7.3


From geoff at variosoft.com  Sat Aug  7 17:18:55 2004
From: geoff at variosoft.com (Geoff Caplan)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 22:18:55 +0100
Subject: Compiling disutil modules on Windows
In-Reply-To: <cf3ffu$rua$1@news-reader3.wanadoo.fr>
References: <mailman.1339.1091911498.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cf3ffu$rua$1@news-reader3.wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <19249730658.20040807221855@variosoft.com>

Michel,

MCamgntefp> Look the message "Building Python 2.4 extensions with the Microsoft Toolkit
MCamgntefp> Compiler" from 17 jul 2004

Thanks for the link, but I don't think it's a viable solution for me.

First, it seems to be aimed at the official Alpha release of 2.4 which
is compiled with the MVC++ 7. I need to get something working with the
stable Active State distro, which is compiled with MVC++ 6.

Also, Mike says it's aimed at experienced extension developers with
experience of C compilers, and that "It is not really targeted at
end-users." He also says: "Note that this document represents the
findings of a very limited set of tests with what is essentially an
unsupported approach to building extensions.  You should expect to
find bugs.  No warranty is made that the approach outlined is safe or
appropriate."

I think that this approach would be well beyond my level of
competence!

What is the best way for an end-user with minimal C skills to get
extensions working on Windows? I would abandon the Active State distro
if I had to, but only reluctantly, as in other respects it seems very
convenient.

------------------ 
Geoff Caplan
Vario Software Ltd
(+44) 121-515 1154 



From me at privacy.net  Sun Aug 15 14:00:12 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Tobias Pfeiffer)
Date: 15 Aug 2004 18:00:12 GMT
Subject: Stopping a socket.accept() method
Message-ID: <2o9mlbF8ff8rU1@uni-berlin.de>

Hi!

I am writing a network game where the server runs in a console window. 
The person who has opened the server shall be able to stop the process of 
accepting new clients. By now, I am handling that like this:

while 1:
    	try:
    	    	bla = socket.accept()
    	except KeyboardInterrupt:
    	    	break
socket.shutdown(2)

So the user can Ctrl+C and no more clients will be accepted. 
Unfortunately, this doesn't work in Windows. So how can I give the user 
the ability to quit the loop interactively? Any ideas?

Bye
Tobias

-- 
please send any mail to botedesschattens(at)web(dot)de


From tdelaney at avaya.com  Sun Aug 29 20:38:49 2004
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy))
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:38:49 +1000
Subject: Alex Martelli: Welcome back!
Message-ID: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01DCFEFB@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

Alex Martelli wrote:

> This time around I'm gonna try -- I'm as busy as ever (the 2nd Edition
> of the Python Cookbook is at least as intense a project as the first
> was...), but if I can steel myself to use my killfile 100 times more
> than in the past, and still try to respond on some threads which might
> be interesting or useful.  We'll see if it works!

I've actually found that spambayes works fairly well as a killfile -
enough that I don't bother top maintain any other killfile. It usually
takes about 3 posts added as spam for someone to start disappearing ...

Tim Delaney


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Mon Aug 23 11:17:31 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:17:31 GMT
Subject: 2 GB files
References: <9418be08.0408221427.182a4d30@posting.google.com>
	<prSdnX0h1KUgubTcRVn-gg@lmi.net>
	<9418be08.0408221939.7003bd3c@posting.google.com>
	<cgcv5v$sjq$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <fUnWc.15019$v86.14977@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"Bart Nessux" <bart_nessux at hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cgcv5v$sjq$1 at solaris.cc.vt.edu...
<snip>
> Oh, I forgot, Python is free. Perhaps the developers are willing to
> provide a refund to dissatisfied users ;)

Just like Microsoft - return the unused portion of the software, and we'll
return the unused portion of your money!

-- Paul




From cjw at sympatico.ca  Wed Aug 25 22:01:25 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:01:25 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <412cc31c$1@news.012.net.il>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com> <412cc31c$1@news.012.net.il>
Message-ID: <MvbXc.23341$DG.1155452@news20.bellglobal.com>



Avner Ben wrote:

> I believe putting the decorator list before the function header is 
> generally a bad design decision. While it may make parsing-related 
> sense, it violates Python's greatest asset: being executable pseudocode. 
> The way I see it, the latter quality means being able to look at the 
> code and see clearly and immediately what requirements from the real 
> world the code was written the serve. Functions and methods are major 
> code entities that are naturally expected to represent discrete 
> functional requirements from the code, to this or that level of detail. 
> I expect to learn from the method name, the class it is in and the list 
> of arguments it takes, everything I need to know about the functional 
> requirement it implements. If that is not enough, I will look at the 
> docstring, if present. Everything else the method has to offer is 
> conveniently hidden below. Decorators of the type discussed recently - 
> with the exception of staticmethod and classmethod - are technical 
> detail of the kind I would like to see hidden below. Putting them on 
> top, prior to the what the method does (its name etc.) compromises the 
> design quality of the code, reducing it to yet another 
> abbreviation-based, self-centered technical scripting language.
> The one esception I saw was J2, which, although putting the decorators 
> before the proper method header, uses indentation to state "this is an 
> extra piece of technicality which you are free to ignore - the def is 
> below."
> 
> My vote: C2, E4, J2
> 
>     Avner.
Your expectation list makes sense to me.  There is merit in having the 
docstring before the 'decorator', i.e. E4

Colin W.



From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 26 01:36:10 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 01:36:10 -0400
Subject: Why return None?
In-Reply-To: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
Message-ID: <jt6dnbx8R-dX67DcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>

Martin DeMello wrote:

> It seems to be a fairly common pattern for an object-modifying method to
> return None - however, this is often quite inconvenient.

http://www.python.org/doc/faq/general.html#why-doesn-t-list-sort-return-the-sorted-list

(Not an answer to the general question you ask, unless you
extrapolate from the specific answer given there to the
more general case.)

-Peter


From espen at *do-not-spam-me*.vestre.net  Thu Aug 26 03:12:58 2004
From: espen at *do-not-spam-me*.vestre.net (Espen Vestre)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:12:58 +0200
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.SOL.4.58.0408251722510.568@zaphod.rite-group.com>
Message-ID: <kw1xhujrt1.fsf@merced.netfonds.no>

Rich Teer <rich.teer at rite-group.com> writes:

> I think you're getting confused with the Blue ?yster Cult.
> Don't Fear the Reaper - great song.

Great song, but their hard-hitting stuff is even better. For instance
"Lisp in the Hills" or "Career of Eval".
-- 
  (espen ;-)


From db3l at fitlinxx.com  Thu Aug 26 18:23:48 2004
From: db3l at fitlinxx.com (David Bolen)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 18:23:48 -0400
Subject: Message queues [Re: Best processor (i386) for Python
	performance?]
References: <cgjsk2$le4@odah37.prod.google.com>
	<412dfb17$0$65599$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<mailman.2443.1093535390.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ur7ptixxk.fsf@fitlinxx.com> <du7oekx4r2t.fsf_-_@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>
Message-ID: <u6575ilmz.fsf@fitlinxx.com>

Ville Vainio <ville at spammers.com> writes:

> >>>>> "David" == David Bolen <db3l at fitlinxx.com> writes:
> 
>     David> I do think it can be tricky to determine just what case an
>     David> application falls into (and many oscillate between I/O and
>     David> CPU bound modes), and indeed a purely CPU bound Python
>     David> application (if in Python code and not a well-behaving
>     David> extension module) isn't going to be helped at all.
> 
> The sensible thing to do then is to use multiple processes, not just
> multiple threads. Many Python apps use Queue.Queue anyway, and such an
> approach is often easy to convert over to use processes instead of
> threads.

Well, "sensible" may depend on your needs and environment.  I'm far
less a fan of multi-process situations under Windows than I am under
Unix systems for example.  In Windows process creation is far less
efficient, and proper parent/child relationships don't always work
properly (particularly when it comes to killing processes off) and
such.  Threading, on the other hand, just plain works extremely well,
at least on the WinNT/2K/XP variants.  That's almost backwards to the
way I feel about things under Unix, where the various thread
implementations and support for them on different systems can make
separate processes more attractive.

But you're right that multi-process solutions are certainly something
to keep in the toolbox as available options.

-- David


From pinard at iro.umontreal.ca  Mon Aug 23 12:44:45 2004
From: pinard at iro.umontreal.ca (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois?= Pinard)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:44:45 -0400
Subject: J2 decorator grammar
In-Reply-To: <2orckjFdtljaU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <mailman.2130.1093134487.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2orckjFdtljaU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <20040823164445.GB8036@titan.progiciels-bpi.ca>

[Peter Maas]
> Robert Brewer schrieb:

> with:
>     return ...
>     accept ...
>     classmethod
> def func():
>     <function body>

> "using" instead of "with" would be equally satisfactory for me. I
> don't like "decorate" because it sounds like "attaching some bells
> and whistles" or "making it look pretty" which isn't adequate for the
> meaning of this syntax.

I'm not especially crusading for `with', but it has the advantage that it will
likely become a keyword in some later version of Python, and likely also,
will be used in `with SOMETHING:' and not barely as `with:'.

Reserving a keyword is a lengthy process, like it was demonstrated by the
progressive implementation of `yield'.  So using `with' here would be a
nice investment for the future in that regard.

-- 
Fran?ois Pinard   http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard


From uche at ogbuji.net  Mon Aug  9 10:22:14 2004
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 07:22:14 -0700
Subject: Module for converting XML to Python object(s)?
References: <otdPc.224$df.27@bignews5.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <d116fbae.0408090622.2e672ea6@posting.google.com>

"Robert Oschler" <no_replies at fake_email_address.invalid> wrote in message news:<otdPc.224$df.27 at bignews5.bellsouth.net>...
> Has anybody seen a Python module that will take an XML document (not a
> colossal one), and convert it to a Python nested class object?  I'm
> basically looking for something that would allow me to parse an XML document
> (not tokenize it like SAX or make it into an XPath accessible DOM object
> like others), directly into a nested Python object so I could access
> everything through Python class attribute references.

There is a metric ton of these "data bindings".  See:

http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/06/11/py-xml.html
http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/07/02/py-xml.html
http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/08/13/py-xml.html
http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/12/17/py-xml.html

Based on your description, your best bets are generate_ds, gnosis
objectify, xmltramp and Anobind.

Good luck, and do report back on your experiences.


-- 
Uche Ogbuji                                    Fourthought, Inc.
http://uche.ogbuji.net    http://4Suite.org    http://fourthought.com
Perspective on XML: Steady steps spell success with Google -
http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp?id=9663
Use XML namespaces with care -
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-namcar.html
Managing XML libraries - http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp?id=9160
Commentary on "Objects. Encapsulation. XML?" -
http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp?id=9090
Harold's Effective XML -
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-think25.html
A survey of XML standards -
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-stand4/


From john at grulic.org.ar  Mon Aug 30 16:33:10 2004
From: john at grulic.org.ar (John Lenton)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 17:33:10 -0300
Subject: Search for AVI file?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408302222240.1162-100000@kleigh.nl>
References: <ol17j0pdpiuubu6f9n5vpho4136vimsq6n@4ax.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408302208480.1162-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408302222240.1162-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <20040830203310.GB10271@grulic.org.ar>

On Mon, Aug 30, 2004 at 10:23:05PM +0200, Peter Kleiweg wrote:
> Peter Kleiweg schreef:
> 
> > John Doe schreef:
> >
> > > I realise that this is not really a python question, but python's the
> > > only language I'd be comfortable trying to deal with this.
> > >
> > > What I need is to search a drive and find all the AVI format files
> > > that are NOT listed with the AVI extension.  I'm looking over an old
> > > drive of mine from an old computer.  I know the files were renamed
> > > with the wrong extension, but I know that they were originally AVI
> > > files.  Can python do this for me?  Any hints?  Anybody have a link to
> > > something that would already do this?  I appreciate any help.
> >
> > Use walk() to find all files. Open each file and read in the
> > first 12 bytes. The last four of those 12 bytes should be
> > 'AVI ', if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> Or from the command line:
> 
> find / -type f -exec file '{}' ';' | grep AVI

if that's GNU find, you'll find

    find / -type f -print0 | xargs -0 file | grep AVI

a lot faster, usually.

-- 
John Lenton (john at grulic.org.ar) -- Random fortune:
Them as has, gets.
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From uri.nix at zoran.com  Sun Aug 22 06:51:17 2004
From: uri.nix at zoran.com (Uri Nix)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 03:51:17 -0700
Subject: Process spawning in win32
Message-ID: <309a1af8.0408220251.15b8084b@posting.google.com>

Hello,

I'm using Python to automate some test suites for an external
simulator. Up to now I've been using the os.spawnl() successfully.
Recently, I've changed simulator versions and encountered the
following problem:
using os.spawnl() from within the IDLE activates the simulator just
fine; using the _same_ code from a script (either from IDLE or command
line) doesn't.
It looks like the simulator isn't being activated from its working
directory.

I've tried using Mark Hammond's win32process to verify I'm passing the
correct environment and working directory, but get the same results.

Why should spawnl() work differently from within IDLE or otherwise?

(Using Python 2.3.4 on WindowsXP)

Cheers,
  Uri


From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 17 12:21:38 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:21:38 -0500
Subject: Python secure?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1773.1092718751.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk><ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com><ZKRTc.3710$bJ2.23892@news1.mts.net>	<cforh6$qiv$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk><mailman.1705.1092625838.5135.python-list@python.org><2xXTc.3775$bJ2.24876@news1.mts.net>	<NIydnd-skK0q173cRVn-ow@powergate.ca><mailman.1751.1092678567.5135.python-list@python.org>	<rzeUc.3995$bJ2.26585@news1.mts.net>
	<mailman.1773.1092718751.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <JfqUc.4101$bJ2.27640@news1.mts.net>

Terry Reedy wrote:

> As we both said, C is safer in the hands of expert, experienced, careful
> programmers.  People like you claim to be and people like Guido and Tim
> Peters.  They program in C so we have less need to.  And I am grateful for
> that.

Oh yah, when did I claim to be like Guido and/or Tim Peters?


From asif at go-away-spammer.com  Wed Aug 25 19:16:43 2004
From: asif at go-away-spammer.com (Player)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:16:43 +0100
Subject: Begginer question about py install
References: <cgi7bl$6m2$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<cgi7m5$f56$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<cginse$nog$1@news1.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
Message-ID: <cgj6kv$gi6$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>


"vincent wehren" <vincent at visualtrans.de> wrote in message
news:cginse$nog$1 at news1.tilbu1.nb.home.nl...
: Player wrote:
:
: > Also PyWin32 the latest version or build, will not install with the
latest
: > version of python, it requires 2.2 version of python, while the latest v
of
: > python is 2.3. :(
: >
: > M.B
: >
: >
: You probably just grabbed the wrong version. Note that build numbers are
: now the same for all, but for Python 2.3.x you need:
:
:
http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/pywin32/pywin32-202.win32-py2.3.exe?download
:
:
: HTH,
:
: --
: Vincent Wehren


Cheers, yeah I realised after someone told me about the different releases,
what I had done.
D'OH!!

Thanks anyways..
M.B




From littlejohn.75 at noos.fr  Sun Aug 15 11:53:42 2004
From: littlejohn.75 at noos.fr (F. Petitjean)
Date: 15 Aug 2004 15:53:42 GMT
Subject: Python secure?
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <411f8706$0$29658$636a15ce@news.free.fr>

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:10:07 +0100, Calvin <noone at here.com> wrote:
> 
> Sorry I should have said I'm new to programming let alone Python. I wish to
> know whether Python is secure as an exe for a commercial product. i.e. can
> someone see your code more easily than in say using another language. We're
> not talking financial / security type software here just a basic windows
> app.
to be clear   commercial product == some software  (you said exe) which
is delivered and can run only if "the client" has paid some amount.
and in your mind   secure == someone cannot easily see the code
it is the archetypical (sp?) definition of "security by obscurity"

 Since you are new to prograaming (and to python) let me explain that
for me python is a opensource language/system and as such the main goal
is not to have the most obscure code :-) (it is rather difficult to
create hard to read python code)

 And do you know that there is more than just "a basic windows app" ?
How do you explain that a system such as Debian exists ?
(http://www.debian.org ) The "applications" are not called exe, do they
run or not ?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 


From joshl at commenspace.org  Tue Aug 24 12:31:59 2004
From: joshl at commenspace.org (Josh)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:31:59 -0700
Subject: Newbie:  Downloading a pushed file
Message-ID: <Y3KWc.8$oZ6.3222@news.uswest.net>

First, I'm new at this.

Next, my question:  I'm trying to write a script that downloads 
requested files from a website.

The site works, I think, as follows:
  1:  Give the site a URL
  2:  Site comes back with a 'waiting' message, then after some time 
returns a bunch of download URL's
  3:  If you open a window with the new download url _in the same 
browser session_ then you get a new window which says things like 
'processing' for a while, and then pushes you a file, for lack of a 
better word.  It's sort of like when you go to sourceforge and click a 
download mirror, and then after a few seconds you get a window pop up 
asking to save the file.

Now, so far I've managed, in an ugly manner I am sure, to get the 
initial page, parse the download URL's, and I did this having pything 
use an IE browser, as described in:
http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/06/13/ie_automation.html

My problem is when I get to the download page, how do I tell ie to go 
ahead and save the file it gets pushed?

Another question would be how do I do it without IE .. I assume if I 
keep the socket open and send the site some header, perhaps 
HTTP_REFERER, then it will let me move on to the download pages, but I 
havent even figured out how to re-read the socket after the initial page 
refreshes (every re-read comes up blank, even though I know the page 
should have sent me new data)

Sorry for my probably poorly worded descriptions, and thanks for any help.

   -Josh


From xnews2 at fredp.lautre.net  Tue Aug 10 05:50:52 2004
From: xnews2 at fredp.lautre.net (Fred Pacquier)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 09:50:52 GMT
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
	<mailman.1417.1092083399.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Xns9541788BCBD0EPaCmAnRDLM@212.27.42.70>

Geoff Caplan <geoff at variosoft.com> said :

> Check out VisualWx.
> 
> http://visualwx.altervista.org/


Hey, thanks for the pointer, this one looks really nice (even if it's only 
available for Windows ATM)...

Out of curiosity, how did you come across it ? This sort of topic pops up 
every month or so on this group, and I'd never seen it mentioned before, 
although it seems the project has been going on for a while already...

-- 
YAFAP : http://www.multimania.com/fredp/


From fredrik at pythonware.com  Wed Aug 11 11:51:03 2004
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:51:03 +0200
Subject: Pilprint
References: <a1301a8e.0408110653.77579585@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfdf60$8g4$1@sea.gmane.org>

Chris Jankowski wrote:

>I am a newbie to the world of Python and trying to print some
> images(.tif).  I have installed the PIL Library and can use the some
> of the fuctions like: m.format, im.size, im.mode without any problem.
> When I try to use the Tools like pilprint and pilfile, I can't seem to
> get them to work.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Examples:
>>>> pilfile *.tif
> Traceback (  File "<interactive input>", line 1
>    pilfile *.tif
>
>>>> pilprint 'c:/chris.TIF'
> Traceback (  File "<interactive input>", line 1
>    pilprint 'c:/chris.TIF'
>                          ^
> SyntaxError: invalid syntax

pilprint (etc) are programs, not Python statements.  you're supposed
to run them from the standard command line, not Python's interactive
prompt.

depending on your operating system, and how things are set up, some
of these should work:

    pilprint.py c:/chris.tif
    python pilprint.py c:/chris.tif
    pilprint c:/chris.tif

</F> 





From skip at pobox.com  Tue Aug 10 12:27:20 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 11:27:20 -0500
Subject: unicode to ascii converting
In-Reply-To: <cf23jb$b8k$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>
References: <mailman.1296.1091813051.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1091815856.527127@news.commspeed.net>
	<mailman.1301.1091816463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<s9z8ycs9l07.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>
	<mailman.1309.1091820963.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cf223m$7ha$1@news-reader4.wanadoo.fr>
	<cf23jb$b8k$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <16664.63336.545893.13383@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Michel> # -*- coding: cp1252 -*-
    Michel> aa = u"?"
    Michel> aa.encode("ascii","ignore")

A somewhat less destructive solution might be to try my latscii codec:

    http://manatee.mojam.com/~skip/python/latscii.py

(assuming your input is encoded as latin-1).

Skip


From mudd at vex.net  Tue Aug 10 08:48:42 2004
From: mudd at vex.net (mudd at vex.net)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 08:48:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: decorators vs GIL
In-Reply-To: <96c2e938.0408091819.2cd7b50d@posting.google.com>
References: <96c2e938.0408091819.2cd7b50d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <43428.12.151.80.14.1092142122.squirrel@webmail.vex.net>

state machines and processes [and inter-process
communication/coordination]?  It sounds like you're saying the alternative
to threads is "home brewed" threads.  I don't follow.

Until recently linux implemented threads as processes.  I'm really not
concerned with how the threads are implemented in the thread library.  I
just don't want a language to prevent me from accessing the thread
library.


>
> Threads often seem simple at the outset, but most of the time they
> wind up being far more complex to program and debug than judicious use
> of state machines and processes.


From beliavsky at 127.0.0.1  Tue Aug  3 16:31:28 2004
From: beliavsky at 127.0.0.1 (beliavsky@aol.com)
Date: 3 Aug 2004 15:31:28 -0500
Subject: How to dynamically access Numeric subarrays
References: <pan.2004.08.03.11.29.43.247284@unet.univie.ac.at>
Message-ID: <410ff620_1@127.0.0.1>


Gaubitzer Erwin <a9605473 at unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:

>So my questions to out there:
>How can I extract a (Numeric Python) subarray whose indices
>have to be built dynamically.

Can the "take" function do what you want?



----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
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From python at rcn.com  Thu Aug 26 02:01:12 2004
From: python at rcn.com (Raymond Hettinger)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 23:01:12 -0700
Subject: Proposal for removing self
References: <T_7Xc.61360$Fg5.2281@attbi_s53>
Message-ID: <5d83790c.0408252119.1852f7e@posting.google.com>

"Brent W. Hughes" <brent.hughes at comcast.net> wrote in message news:<T_7Xc.61360$Fg5.2281 at attbi_s53>...
> When doing object-oriented stuff, it bothers me to have to type "self" so
> many times.  I propose that Python allow the programmer to optionally type
> ".variable" instead of "self.variable" to mean the same thing.  Of course,
> the interpreter would have to be more careful about detecting floats that
> begin with just a period as in ".5".  What are your thoughts?

There's a FAQ on the subject:

http://www.python.org/doc/faq/general.html#why-must-self-be-used-explicitly-in-method-definitions-and-calls


Raymond Hettinger


From tim.peters at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 10:34:48 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:34:48 -0400
Subject: Timing Difference: insert vs. append & reverse
In-Reply-To: <cpHQc.960$ry5.149@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>
References: <35b736b9.0408020330.53b24ed3@posting.google.com>	<Xns953983065EEC6duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>	<1a517b5.0408031027.60554dfb@posting.google.com>	<Xns953B4F5373D3Bduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>	<1a517b5.0408041305.3927a6c8@posting.google.com>	<mailman.1159.1091655528.5135.python-list@python.org>	<p7hQc.6692$AY5.4804@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
	<mailman.1181.1091683751.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cpHQc.960$ry5.149@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <1f7befae040806073458c115f0@mail.gmail.com>

[Bryan Olson, on deques & Python's list type]
...
> Agreed.  But those Perl wizards, misguided as they may be, are
> pretty sharp.

Yup.

...

[Tim]
>> You can pursue it if you want to, but with the 2.4 deque type I have
>> no interest in messing more with the list type.

[Bryan]
> I'm talking about facilities and their implementations, not people.

Sure!  I'm one of the handful of people who might actually "do
something" about this kind of issue, and I was telling you that I
won't.  Your chances of seeing what you suggest are highly correlated
with finding someone who will "do something" <wink>.  I don't know
whether Raymond Hettinger is interested in pursuing this further, but
if he isn't either (that's my guess), then the only realistic chance
is if you do the work yourself.

> True, when I pointed out that Perl nails this one,

Which part I disagree with, for reasons already given.

> I was kinda' thinking the comparison might motivate Pythoners to
> pursue the same enhancement.

And the desire for efficient "both ends" operation led to 2.4's deque
type, which isn't "the same" enhancement because it didn't end up in
the base list type, but is a better enhancement for people who truly
need both-ends performance.

> It was certainly *not* meant to deride anyone who contributed to implementing
> Python.

I didn't read it that way.

> Is Tim the superior Pythoner?  Duh.  Does Python rock?  Sure.
> Is saving four-or-eight bytes more or less valuable than
> providing efficient insert at both ends?

In the basic list type, yes, it's more valuable in Python to save the
8 bytes.  The speed of "left end" insert/remove is insignificant for
most Python apps, and is quite fast anyway for small lists.  It's a
major concern for *some* Python apps, and the deque type serves those
better than fudging the list type could.  The majority who don't care
don't pay for it.

> With all due respect to Python and the people who implemented it, Perl kicks
> on this one.

I agree that Perl has a good approach here.  I think Python's is better, though.


From fumanchu at amor.org  Tue Aug 24 13:11:08 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:11:08 -0700
Subject: J2 paper 0.2.1
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E51@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Greg Chapman wrote:
> Note that this:
> 
> <token>:
>     memoize
>     classmethod
>     synchronize
>     funcattrs(author="Guido van Rossum")
> def foo(cls, *args):
>     pass
> 
> is probably broken, at least given most of the proposed 
> implementations, in which classmethod and staticmethod
> would have to be either first or last.

Thanks! Fixed.

> Also this:
> 
> "In contrast, the current Python decorator proposal provides the exact
> opposite--all decorators accept one function and return one 
> function. Although
> they are not required to return a new function, or change 
> function signatures or
> calling semantics, many will, including the most common 
> decorators, classmethod
> and staticmethod."
> 
> is wrong in that classmethod and staticmethod do not return 
> functions (or even
> callables), which is why they have to be in a special place.

However, they "change calling semantics" both for the caller (
Thing.method() versus Thing().method() ) and the callee (instead of
receiving self as the first arg, they receive cls or nothing). I'll try
to think of a way to rewrite it where that's more clear.

Thanks for the comments!


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From michael at hobbshouse.org  Wed Aug 25 12:56:32 2004
From: michael at hobbshouse.org (Michael Hobbs)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:56:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: ANN: Python + Erlang = Candygram
Message-ID: <16999.209.46.8.140.1093452992.squirrel@mail.hobbshouse.org>

Announcing the first public release of Candygram:
    Candygram 1.0 beta 1

Candygram is a Python implementation of Erlang concurrency primitives.
Erlang is widely respected for its elegant built-in facilities for
concurrent programming. This package attempts to emulate those facilities
as closely as possible in Python. With Candygram, developers can send and
receive messages between threads using semantics nearly identical to those
in the Erlang language.

More information about Candygram can be found at
http://candygram.sourceforge.net





From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 04:55:48 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 18:55:48 +1000
Subject: Python future performance and speed
In-Reply-To: <du77jrry3gf.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<7x4qmv6cwo.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<du77jrry3gf.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040822015544556e07@mail.gmail.com>

On 22 Aug 2004 11:36:16 +0300, Ville Vainio <ville at spammers.com> wrote:
> What kind of mainstream application would be too slow if implemented
> in Python? Well, perhaps image / video editing...

Maybe. You could, however, do the computationally expensive parts in
numarray. 

(As a random-anecdote on the topic - experiments with using shtoom to
transmit and receive video over IP as well as audio over IP show that 
Python is fast enough to do this...)


From Sibylle.Koczian at Bibliothek.Uni-Augsburg.de  Fri Aug 27 04:14:02 2004
From: Sibylle.Koczian at Bibliothek.Uni-Augsburg.de (Sibylle Koczian)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:14:02 +0200
Subject: mySQLdb
In-Reply-To: <1093558526.705789@seven.kulnet.kuleuven.ac.be>
References: <1093558526.705789@seven.kulnet.kuleuven.ac.be>
Message-ID: <2p88qaFhfaeqU1@uni-berlin.de>

m0226065 schrieb:
> so I have a mySQL server
> and mySQLdb as an interface (do I us this term correct here?) to this server
> from python
> now I have a game:
>     I want to read a file into the db
>     I want other data to be kept in the db from now on
> 
> problem:
> since I have special things I want to do (like write a dict into a db), do I
> have to write a specialized class, derived from mySQLdb, or would that be
> dumb? I mean, I guess it would be easier to write some functions that take
> care of everything, while I just say "write this dict to that table" or
> "write this dict item to that table" and so on.
> 
You can't derive a class from mySQLdb, because that is a module 
containing several classes. If I understand your description correctly, 
you would need functions that
- convert a data structure, for example a dict or a dict item, to 
parameters suitable for a SQL query,
- execute (and possibly construct) the right query with those parameters.

Right? That might quite well be encapsulated into a class, but I don't 
think such a class would have an "is-a" relationship to a MySQLdb class. 
I'd rather give it a MySQLdb.cursor and possibly a MySQL.connection 
instance as attributes.

Koczian

-- 
Dr. Sibylle Koczian
Universitaetsbibliothek, Abt. Naturwiss.
D-86135 Augsburg

Tel.: (0821) 598-2400, Fax : (0821) 598-2410
e-mail : Sibylle.Koczian at Bibliothek.Uni-Augsburg.DE


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Thu Aug  5 09:06:01 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:06:01 -0400
Subject: Decorator syntax (was Re: PEP 318 - PyFIT comments)
References: <mailman.1162.1091660561.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnch2rs1.6ei.ressler@cheetah.jpl.nasa.gov>
	<1646998998.20040804190026@MailBlocks.com>
	<mailman.1168.1091667628.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<10h34ivio5s2c21@news.supernews.com>
	<m3pt65g4hb.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <10h4c5iicgv7k74@news.supernews.com>


"Michael Hudson" <mwh at python.net> wrote in message
news:m3pt65g4hb.fsf at pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk...
> "John Roth" <newsgroups at jhrothjr.com> writes:
>
> > "Bruce Eckel" <BruceEckel at MailBlocks.com> wrote in message
> > news:mailman.1168.1091667628.5135.python-list at python.org...
> > > I'll weigh in a little on this one.
> > >
> > > This is very similar to attributes/metadata in Java J2SE 5 and in C#.
> > > The thing is, metadata is a little bit weird; it's intentionally
> > > outside of the domain of the 'normal' programming language, because it
> > > expresses things that you can't or shouldn't within the normal
> > > programming language.
>
> Except, of course, this is Python so there isn't any such thing as
> metadata, really.  Objects all the way down.
>
> > > So you _do_ need an escape mechanism. And it also takes a little
> > > bit of getting used to; it's orthogonal to what you normally think
> > > of as a language feature. But the potential for metadata features,
> > > at least in Java, is very powerful.
> >
> > I'd be a lot happier if it was, in fact, a general metadata
> > facility. Unfortunately, it only seems to work on functions
> > (methods), and for what I'm working on I need metadata for
> > properties and fields as well, that is, any identifier that you can
> > bind an object to.
>
> Well, that would be because that's impossible :-)

I wish you'd have told me that before I did it. As I said in
a prior post, I had to put a general metadata facility into
PyFIT, and it's working quite nicely, thank you.

What I did was put a dictionary with a known name (_typeDict)
into the class, and stick the metadata in there. It's nowhere near
as convenient as being able to directly associate it with the
needed bindings, but it does serve my needs in that particular
package.

> Where would you
> attach the data in:
>
> class C(object):
>     @funky
>     i = 0
>
> ?
>
> You can't attach it to 'i' -- that's just a string.  '0' is just an
> integer.  The class doesn't exist at the time the body is executed.

Two of which are exactly the points I mentioned. The third
is piffle. If the implementer wanted to do it, there is no reason
why it couldn't be done.

>
> What you can do (today) of course is stuff like:
>
> class C(object):
>     i = MagicProperty(int, default=0)
>
> or something -- which obviously leaves ample space for metadata in the
> argument list -- but that can be painful, I grant.
>
> What kind of metadata do you want?

Type and other declaration information for any identifiers
that will be referenced in the FIT tests. Other information
includes things like precision for floating point numbers,
strings that are accepted as "true" or "false" for booleans,
the subtype for lists and tuples, references to custom
type adapters and other stuff.

> (I have to admit I read your first post on this thread a bit like
> "this hammer doesn't do a very good job of screwing in screws" :-)

Well, that's basically what it said, after all. I was trying to find
something I could use the facility for. I can always dream up
ways someone else could use it, but I've found out after long
and painful experiance that if I'm not the developer in question,
at best it's a futile exercise.

That was basically my comment about ctypes. AMK's
blog entry referenced the ctype's documentation page,
which didn't tell me anything about what Thomas Heller
would do with it in the context of that package, and I'm
not enough of an expert on ctypes to see it myself.

John Roth
>
> Cheers,
> mwh
>
> -- 
>   It is time-consuming to produce high-quality software. However,
>   that should not alone be a reason to give up the high standards
>   of Python development.              -- Martin von Loewis, python-dev




From crichton314 at btinternet.com  Thu Aug 26 06:37:04 2004
From: crichton314 at btinternet.com (John Crichton)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 03:37:04 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <3b2846c4.0408260237.182e749d@posting.google.com>

Vote: FOR

Could I also echo Fernando Perez's sentiments in thanking the people
who have worked so hard putting this proposal together.

Best wishes,

John Crichton


From jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu  Mon Aug 30 08:54:44 2004
From: jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu (John Hunter)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 07:54:44 -0500
Subject: Newby pango problem
In-Reply-To: <2pg9tfFjilreU1@uni-berlin.de> (Friedrich Dimmling's message of
	"Mon, 30 Aug 2004 11:21:58 +0200")
References: <2pg9tfFjilreU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <m28ybwwzu3.fsf@mother.paradise.lost>

>>>>> "Friedrich" == Friedrich Dimmling <f.dimmling at remove-this.snafu.de> writes:

    Friedrich> Hi, I would like to use pango.layout to display text in
    Friedrich> a pygtk2 project. However I could not manage to get the
    Friedrich> pango.layout object incorporated in my toplevel
    Friedrich> gtk.Window and have it displayed.

    Friedrich> If anyone could help me either with a minimal example
    Friedrich> like 'Hello World' displayed in italics in an
    Friedrich> pango.layout or the URL to a tutorial where I can find
    Friedrich> the relevant infos (the PyGtk tutorial seems not to
    Friedrich> contain it, unless I'm really blind)

Here is pango_demo.py from my pygtk examples dir.  I wrote this a long
time ago, so it may not be the best or most modern usage, but it may
help you along your way

from __future__ import division
import pygtk
pygtk.require('2.0')
import gtk
from gtk import gdk
import pango

win = gtk.Window()
win.show()
vbox = gtk.VBox()
vbox.show()
win.add(vbox)

figsize = 4,4
dpi = 72
        
def draw(widget):

    gc = widget.window.new_gc()

    context = widget.create_pango_context()
    layout  = widget.create_pango_layout('Some Text')
    desc = pango.FontDescription('Times 14')


    layout.set_font_description(desc)    

    widget.window.draw_layout(gc, x=100, y=200, layout=layout)
    widget.window.draw_rectangle( gc, 1, 100,100,100,100)

def configure_event(widget, event):
    global pixmap
    pixmap = gtk.gdk.Pixmap(widget.window, 500, 500)
    draw(widget)

    return gtk.TRUE

def expose_event(widget, event):
    draw(widget)
    return gtk.TRUE

da = gtk.DrawingArea()
da.connect('configure_event', configure_event)
da.connect('expose_event', configure_event)

da.set_size_request(figsize[0]*dpi, figsize[1]*dpi)


da.show()
vbox.pack_start(da, gtk.TRUE, gtk.TRUE)

def byebye(button):
    pixbuf = gtk.gdk.Pixbuf(gtk.gdk.COLORSPACE_RGB, 0, 8,
                            500,500)
    pixbuf.get_from_drawable(pixmap, pixmap.get_colormap(),
                             0, 0, 0, 0, 500, 500)

    pixbuf.save('somefile.png', 'png')
    gtk.mainquit()
    
button = gtk.Button('Quit')
button.show()
vbox.pack_start(button, gtk.TRUE, gtk.TRUE)
button.connect('clicked', byebye)

gtk.mainloop()



From sysfault at scrpy.org  Tue Aug 24 19:37:19 2004
From: sysfault at scrpy.org (Anthony Greene)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:37:19 GMT
Subject: Book Recommendation
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.24.19.37.35.678632@scrpy.org>

I'm new to programming entirely, and I'm simply looking for some insight,
can you guys recommend some introductory documentation for me to read, and
what I read, and, do concurrently why reading the primary "book" ou guys
recommend. Thanks, and any advice is great appreciated.


From cjw at sympatico.ca  Fri Aug 27 18:37:12 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:37:12 -0400
Subject: Alex Martelli: Welcome back!
In-Reply-To: <1gj70sk.1o4cuwepco564N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.2534.1093623236.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj70sk.1o4cuwepco564N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <412FB798.1020300@sympatico.ca>

It's great to see you back.  Your freely given wisdom and learning have 
enlightened many.

Congratulations on your marriage and best wishes to Anna.

I liked your choice of readings.

Colin W.


Alex Martelli wrote:

> Batista, Facundo <FBatista at uniFON.com.ar> wrote:
> 
> 
>>[Dave Benjamin]
>>
>>#- Asunto: Alex Martelli: Welcome back!
>>#- 
>>#- It's nice to see you around here again!
>>
>>+1
> 
> 
> Heh, thanks.  BTW, anybody interested in the readings we choose for our
> marriage (me and Anna, who's also going to be my coeditor for the Python
> Cookbook Second Edition) can have a look at http://www.aleax.it/mar.html
> .... Pythonistas will find one of the poems, ahem, interesting.  (Some
> photos are at http://bonanna.multiply.com/photos/album/1 , but
> mentioning them would be OT, since they're not Python-related;-).
> 
> 
> Alex



From heikowu at ceosg.de  Mon Aug  9 12:53:48 2004
From: heikowu at ceosg.de (Heiko Wundram)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 18:53:48 +0200
Subject: Purely emotional perspective
In-Reply-To: <AYSdnQ2xPrfFPYrcRVn-iA@powergate.ca>
References: <10hf3oaltbo7o74@corp.supernews.com>
	<AYSdnQ2xPrfFPYrcRVn-iA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <200408091853.48251.heikowu@ceosg.de>

Am Montag, 9. August 2004 18:03 schrieb Peter Hansen:
> After a while, when everyone is used to decorators, it won't
> be important to have them way out front like that, and they
> could just as well, and perhaps more readably (at that time),
> be moved to after the def.

I don't think this is true... Decorators are not simply "meta-data" that is 
attached to a function, they change the functions behaviour. As such, they 
create a different function than the one which is declared.

Consider:

def somedecorator(f):
	def fdec(*args,**kwargs):
		return f("somearg",*args,**kwargs)
	return staticmethod(fdec)

With definitions:

class x(object):

	def y(some,arg):
		@ somedecorator
		<blah>

Versus:

class x(object):

	@ somedecorator
	def y(some,arg):
		<blah>

Now, say you folded out the body of x with some form of decent editor. In the 
first example, @somedecorator disappears, as it is part of the function body, 
in the second example, it stays in (and I wouldn't want an editor to fold out 
the decorating statements for a function, and it would be kind'a hard to have 
a sensible way for the editor to display the first few lines decorating the 
function inside the function body while the function is folded out).

What the catch is: somedecorator does not only change the function "type", as 
you would consider staticmethod or classmethod do, but also changes the 
function signature, as the first argument to the function is fixed by the 
decorator (I actually have use cases for this).

Now, it is very important that at first glance you see that the function only 
takes one parameter (as it is decorated by somedecorator), and this only 
stands out clearly in the second example (at least for my taste), if you know 
what somedecorator does, obviously.

The docstring of a function actually is only meta-data (in my taste), and thus 
should remain inside the function definition.

When and how decorators do something to the method is unimportant to my taste 
(they are executed after the function definition has been executed), but 
visibly seeing that the decorator is being applied to the function is much 
easier for the second syntax.

I won't try to throw in some form of debate about the character used to 
attribute decorators, but I'm for @, because it stands out much more than | 
does.

Anyway, my 2 cents...

Heiko.


From a.neudecker at uni-bonn.de  Mon Aug  9 11:49:17 2004
From: a.neudecker at uni-bonn.de (Andreas Neudecker)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 17:49:17 +0200
Subject: Find out the file name of a module from inside the module?
In-Reply-To: <m3hdrcph17.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
References: <cf7u7d$npu$1@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
	<m3hdrcph17.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <41179CFD.20800@uni-bonn.de>

Hi Michael,

sorry for making your head spin ;-)
I think, Christian's answer is exactly what I was looking for: Just cut 
out the following code snippets and put them in files called program.py 
and module.py, respectively. Run program.py and you will see ... ;-)


Thanks to both of you, Michael, Christian.


Kind regards


Andreas


program.py:
8<------------------------------------------------------------------------

#!/usr/bin/env python

import sys
import os

# Check if running as program
if __name__ == '__main__':
	print "I was run as a PROGRAM and my path is \n\n\t'%s'\n" % 
os.path.abspath (sys.argv[0])
	print "Now, I will call the module 'module' ..."
	import module
	print "Let's see, what 'module' says about itself, calling 
'module.whoami()':\n\n"
	module.whoami()

else:
	print "Hey, I was not run as a program. What's on?"

# EOF 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------#


module.py
8<------------------------------------------------------------------------

# Module 'module.py' 
----------------------------------------------------------#

try:
     THIS_FILE = __file__
except NameError:
	 print "I guess I was not called as a module. That's strange."

def whoami ():
	print "I was called as a MODULE and my path is  \n\n\t'%s'\n" % THIS_FILE

# EOF 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------#



Michael Hudson schrieb:
> Andreas Neudecker <a.neudecker at uni-bonn.de> writes:
> 
> 
>>Hi.
>>
>>I know you can read the filename of a program as sys.argv[0]. But what
>>about modules? Is there a similar way to find out the file name of a
>>module (called by some other module or program) from inside this
>>module?
> 
> 
> Uh, your question makes my head spin a bit, but is __file__ what you
> want?
> 
> 
>>>>import os
>>>>os.__file__
> 
> '/usr/lib/python2.2/os.pyc'
> 
> Cheers,
> mwh
> 


From greg at invalid.invalid  Fri Aug  6 12:30:54 2004
From: greg at invalid.invalid (Greg Krohn)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 16:30:54 GMT
Subject: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was Decorator syntax)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1253.1091765877.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <6LWdnZCpvI7Ico_cRVn-hw@giganews.com>	<L0DQc.10331$cK.3791@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>
	<mailman.1253.1091765877.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2nOQc.10856$9Y6.9004@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> The solution, if you don't like the syntax, is not voting. It's to propose an
> argument that Guido will accept, in favour of your preferred option.

Yes, I suppose so. +1 in favor of Anthony's proposal to come up with a 
persuasive argument instead of 'voting'. ;)

The reason I don't like the proposed @ construct is that the decorators 
don't seem to be actually part of the function def. They seem to be 
separate statements before the def. With the list-after-def construct 
the decorators appear after 'def' and before ':'; clearly part of the 
function def.

I will concede that the @ example someone posted with a long argument 
list is slightly more readable than the corresponding list-after-def. 
BUT, I think with a shorter arg list list-after-def is more 
readable/intuitive. I believe that shorter args lists are more common 
than long ones. I think the decorator syntax should favor the more 
common usage.


Greg Krohn


From me at privacy.net  Sun Aug  8 12:01:48 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Dan Sommers)
Date: 08 Aug 2004 12:01:48 -0400
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar, but for what exactly?
References: <mailman.1352.1091953503.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<m2u0vdj1bn.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
	<Xns953F91E18B19Fduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <m2isbtlitv.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>

On 8 Aug 2004 13:20:34 GMT,
Duncan Booth <duncan.booth at invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Dan Sommers <me at privacy.net> wrote in 
> news:m2u0vdj1bn.fsf at unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right:

>> On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 18:24:58 +1000,
>> Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> In many cases, these new features actually lead to smaller, simpler
>>> code. I challenge _anyone_ to tell me that
>>> apply(func, args, kwargs) 
>>> is better than 
>>> func(*args, **kwargs)
>> 
>> Okay, I will.  The old way is better than the new way.
>> 
>> Explicit is better than implicit, after all.
>> 
>> Given your second example, is func the name of a function or an object
>> that references a function?  Can I grep my source code to find a
>> function named func?  (Okay, I'll find the variable named func, so at
>> least I'll have some clue as to what's going on.)  Is there a "from
>> module import func" statement in sight?  What happens when I look up
>> "func" in the Python documentation to see if it's a built in name?

> Why do you ask this about the second form only? func is a name that
> references a function in both cases. It doesn't matter whether that
> name was assigned directly with a def statement, or is the result of a
> subsequent binding.

Technically, that is correct.  Optimally, I can treat any application of
any function like a black box that takes some inputs and returns a value
(and possibly changes the inputs or has other (desireable) side effects,
but that's another topic entirely).  I shouldn't have to care where it
is, or who defined it, or how they defined it, or whether it's always
the same function throughout the execution of the program, as long as it
does what it's supposed to do when I invoke it.  Maybe that's my
problem.  I want to know a little more when I'm looking at code that
calls a function.

When I see f( x ), I think that f is a function bound by def (or an
extremely close relative, such as class or staticmethod), and that I can
grep for it somewhere, either in the source code or the library
reference.  I also think, rightly or wrongly, that f *was* bound,
*before* I needed it, and *does not change over time*.

When I see apply( f, x ), I think that f varies over time, and is some
sort of a callback or plugin or whatever, and is *not* the name of an
actual function bound by def.  I also accept (and expect) that a
different function may be called the next time this particular code
executes; those functions have their own names in their own contexts and
namespaces.

Yes, I know that all functions are free to redefine anything, but
functions that do are usually labelled pathological and then blamed for
the lack of optimizing python compilers.

ObDecorator Question:  Does some decorator that specify that a function
is not knowingly rebound within its own namespace, such that f( x ) now
means the same as f( x ) later, assuming that x is the same?  What about
at least that f is the same (and need not be looked up again), even if x
isn't?  This question lurks in the minds of every potential Python
optimizing compiler author.

If the two forms of function application are truly interchangeable, then
why do we have both of them in the first place?

>> C did the same thing recently.
>> 
>> Old C:  (*f)( argument );
>> 
>> New C:  f( argument );

[snip my reasons for not liking that bit of New C]

> For 'recently' read 1987. In fact most C compilers probably
> implemented this feature before the ISO standard came out, but it was
> a feature of the first standardised version of C. I remember around
> that time being extremely glad that I could finally omit those
> extraneous parentheses.

I must be getting old.  :-/

My Second Edition K&R confirms that you are correct on all counts except
that bit about you being happy, but I'll take your word for that <wink>.
It seems more recent than that, or it might be that I spent an awful lot
of time in environments (office/political and target system) where the
difference remained important for design, documentation, extensibility,
performance, resource usage, testing, and/or debugging purposes.

Regards,
Dan

-- 
Dan Sommers
<http://www.tombstonezero.net/dan/>
Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.


From 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de  Tue Aug 17 05:06:08 2004
From: 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de (510046470588-0001 at t-online.de)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 11:06:08 +0200
Subject: Python / scheme implement
References: <8kcUc.216223$pC2.10693727@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<cfrkiv$1eti$1@agate.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <87brhagmm7.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>

Daniel Yoo <dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu> writes:
> It's not perfect (and frankly, is a little outdated!), but it's a
> proof-of-concept that one language can model the other.

how does python model call-with-current-continuation?


Klaus Schilling


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Sun Aug  8 14:18:43 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 18:18:43 GMT
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu> <cf4ms8$30v$1@news.uni-kl.de>
	<cf4rs6$i3l$1@namru.matavnet.hu> <cf59f7$ips$1@news.uni-kl.de>
	<cf5chb$q1u$1@namru.matavnet.hu>
Message-ID: <oiqch0lrp0960p586k6ed0b12s4ikudvkr@4ax.com>

On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 16:14:09 +0200, "Mikl?s" <nospam at nowhere.hu> wrote:


>Decorators, the way things are now, will IMHO actively entice people to
>abuse code.

Undoubtedly we will begin to see the decorator equivalent of the
3-tier architecture embedded in a list comprehension that one comes
across from time to time.

Though I find it hard to get too upset about the addition of a feature
that accommodates a portion of the community, and that can be safely
ignored in writing one's own code if it serves no needs of one's own. 

And while I guess that could be said of most, if not all new features
that have caused controversy, I somehow see this feature more
modularized and offset than the others.

Perhaps the fact that it is so appraently unPythonic is what
modularizes it effectly enough to be considered non-infectious.

One hopes.

Art




From mmccrack at gradlab.ucsd.edu  Wed Aug  4 15:25:47 2004
From: mmccrack at gradlab.ucsd.edu (Michael McCracken)
Date: 04 Aug 2004 12:25:47 -0700
Subject: help: Unit test fixture returning the same object
References: <9895e897.0408031533.26720ba0@posting.google.com>
	<nKGdnfWEjOtspo3cRVn-qg@powergate.ca>
	<9895e897.0408040851.21ac7caa@posting.google.com>
	<roy-D35DF5.12585504082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <yovvffy7lj8.fsf@gradlab.ucsd.edu>

Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> writes:

> michael_mccracken at mac.com (Michael McCracken) wrote:
> > So, I'm still surprised that id() would point to the same object every
> > time, but I'm willing to believe it. However, I don't think that's the
> > only thing that's going on - the reason I noticed this in the first
> > place is that the setUp method was opening a file and populating some
> > lists in my File object, and those lists were accumulating objects
> > between test methods.
> 
> My first guess would be that you're using class variables instead of 
> instance variables, but you say:
> 
> > I don't think I'm accidentally using class variables
> 
> so I'm stumped.  Can you post your code?

I managed to fix my problem, but I don't understand why the fix works
yet, so I'm not quite satisfied.

I am trying to narrow it down so I can post more informatively.

So far my attempts at making a minimal example don't exhibit the same
problem.  While I'm trying to get the smallest example with the
problem, I will describe what happened and how I 'fixed' it.

The File id() was indeed a red herring. 

The problem was that in __init__, File reads a bunch of stuff (in XML
using libxml2) and populates some internal lists. The one that had the
problem was a list of Modules, which has a list of Procedures which
has a list of Blocks. Each Block has predecessors and successors.

Block looks like this:

class Block:
    def __init__(self, name, preds = [], succs = []):
        self.name = name
        
        self.predecessors = preds
        self.successors = succs
        self.metrics = []
        
        for pred in self.predecessors:
            pred.addSuccessor(self)
        for succ in self.successors:
            succ.addPredecessor(self)

	# add* just append to the lists, avoiding cycles.

    def __repr__(self):
	s = "{%d -> %s (0x%d) -> %d (%d)}" %\
            (len(self.predecessors), self.name,\
	     id(self), len(self.successors), 
             len(self.metrics))
        return s

In File, Blocks are created in a method that gets called as we're
parsing out the Procedures and Modules. I make a new Block with empty
preds and succs initially, then link them up after they're all
created:

in File.py:

    def blockForXMLNode(self, n):
        name = safeGetAttribute(n, "label", xlinkNSURI)
        # this is called during the first pass, can't link up yet
        preds = []
        succs = []
        block = Block.Block(name)# preds, succs)
	print 'DEBUG: Making new block: ', block

The problem: if I run it as is, I get this output:
(During the first testCase:)
DEBUG: Making new block:  {0 -> no_exit.1 (0x2714520) -> 0 (0)}
DEBUG: Making new block:  {0 -> loopexit.1 (0x2714840) -> 0 (0)}
DEBUG: Making new block:  {0 -> loopexit.0 (0x2715000) -> 0 (0)}
(During the next testCase:)
DEBUG: Making new block:  {3 -> no_exit.1 (0x2735080) -> 5 (0)}
DEBUG: Making new block:  {4 -> loopexit.1 (0x2735400) -> 6 (0)}
DEBUG: Making new block:  {5 -> loopexit.0 (0x2735560) -> 7 (0)}
(and so on...)

So it does look like a class variable vs. instance variable problem,
but I can't say why. The fix is to uncomment the "# preds, succs)" and
pass in those empty lists to the Block constructor. That gives the
expected results, but I can't explain the difference.

-mike


-- 


From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Aug 10 08:15:18 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:15:18 +0200
Subject: decorators, function signature, and help()
Message-ID: <cfae8m$go2$05$1@news.t-online.com>

After a week or so I'm finally getting accustomed to the pie-pre-def syntax.

Consider a simple-minded decorator that doesn't care about the signature of
the function it wraps:

>>> def noisy(f):
...     def g(*args, **kw):
...             print f.__name__
...             return f(*args, **kw)
...     return g
...
>>> @noisy
... def naught():
...     "does nothing"
...
>>> naught()
naught

Now help() is less than helpful:

>>> help(naught)
Help on function g:

g(*args, **kw)

While the docstring can easily be copied and might even be prefixed

g.__doc__ = "@noisy\n" + f.__doc__

the name currently can not. I do not see a way to preserve the signature
either. It seems that when decoration is a built-in feature that even has
syntax support it should play nice in these cases by default. Any ideas? 
Could there be a smooth way to quote an argument list, e. g:

def f(a, b, c): pass
def g(/*same args as f*/): pass

Peter



From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 18:35:36 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:35:36 -0500
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <kd6dnZ99Oaj8vbvcRVn-jw@powergate.ca>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl>	<ZFoVc.360$MR2.1503@news1.mts.net>
	<mailman.2058.1093016284.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<kd6dnZ99Oaj8vbvcRVn-jw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <i0vVc.412$MR2.2033@news1.mts.net>

Peter Hansen wrote:
> Tim Hochberg wrote:
> 
>> Reid Nichol wrote:
>>
>>> Gerrit Muller wrote:
>>>
>>>> and then a quantum leap towards Python.
>>>
>>> You're aware that a quantum leap means a extremely small leap, right?
>>
>>
>> While quanta are typically very-very-very small, last I checked the 
>> key feature of quantum transitions is not that they're small, but that 
>> there are no intermediate steps. The object is in state A then it's in 
>> state B, but it's never halfway (or anywhere) between. Like most 
>> quantum stuff it's better not to think about that too closely.
> 
> 
> And at least some dictionaries give it as a synonym for "large"
> or "significant".  (www.m-w.com for one)
> 
> -Peter

Such things are only the result of a misunderstanding of the word some 
time ago.  Even though it is wrong, it has become common use, thus the 
incorrect definition definition(s).


From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Aug 22 22:44:25 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (Simon John)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 19:44:25 -0700
Subject: Having problems installing wxPython
Message-ID: <cgblm9$v0k@odak26.prod.google.com>

I've just installed the binary RPM on my RH9 box, it went fine, did you
try the binary before the source?
I noticed that SUSE's YAST2 doesn't have anything newer than 2.5.1.5



From rupole at hotmail.com  Wed Aug  4 02:22:13 2004
From: rupole at hotmail.com (Roger Upole)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 02:22:13 -0400
Subject: Can somebody help me ?
References: <9f6a3388.0408031923.11cfa62d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <41107ae3$1_4@127.0.0.1>

You should be able to get at the data with something like this:

cdb=db1.CurrentDb()
rs=cdb.OpenRecordset('yourtablename')
while not rs.EOF:
    print rs.Fields(0)
    rs.MoveNext()

     hth
        Roger


"Patrick" <patrick.schaeffler at siemens.com> wrote in message
news:9f6a3388.0408031923.11cfa62d at posting.google.com...
> Hi,
>
> I managed to open a msaccess database with python.
>
> import win32com.client.dynamic
> db1 = win32com.client.dynamic.Dispatch("Access.Application")
> dbname = "D:\\Project\\Database\\database.mdb"
> db1.OpenCurrentDatabase(dbname)
>
> Now, I have the problem, that I don't know how I can read the lines
> of my table. Can somebody help me please and give me an example code ?
>
> I'm looking forward to your answers, and thank u very much in advance.
>
> Cheers
>
> Patrick




From heikowu at ceosg.de  Wed Aug 11 23:13:36 2004
From: heikowu at ceosg.de (Heiko Wundram)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 05:13:36 +0200
Subject: Arranging a dependency tree
In-Reply-To: <6ccff37a.0408111831.6eb25a4e@posting.google.com>
References: <6ccff37a.0408111831.6eb25a4e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <200408120513.36921.heikowu@ceosg.de>

Basically, dependencies (should) create a tree structure, except when you have 
circular dependencies. Now, what you have to do to resolve the tree structure 
in case there are no circular dependencies is to walk the edges of the graph, 
from leaf to top.

Example graph:

x
| ----> y
| ----> z | ----> a
|            | ----> b
| ----> a

Now, you need a way to store this in Python, I'd use dictionaries:

deps = {"x":
    {"y":{},
     "z":{"a":{}}
    }}

Reading the data into a format like this is pretty simple too:

<code>
def makeTree(files):
	"""Pass in a list of files for which dependency info
	should be generated."""

	deps = {}
	cur_files = [(fname,deps) for fname in files]
	all_deps = {}
	while cur_files:
		cur_file, cur_deps = cur_files.pop()
		if cur_file in all_deps:
			cur_deps[cur_file] = all_deps[cur_file]
			continue
		new_deps = {}
		# getDeps returns the dependencies needed by cur_file.
		for dep in getDeps(cur_file):
			cur_files.append((dep,new_deps))
		cur_deps[cur_file] = new_deps
		all_deps[cur_file] = new_deps
	return deps
</code>

Now, reading in the dependency list as done above properly takes care of 
circular dependencies, and might create dictionaries which contain themselves 
at some depth. It won't read dependency info more than once for a given file, 
too.

The following code will walk the tree generated by makeTree, but it will barf 
on circular dependencies. You'll have to devise some means to deal with 
these, the most common form being simply to break tree walking at the current 
level in case you encounter a circular dependency. The algorithm is 
recursive. Doing it iteratively would be possible too, but at quite some 
cost.

<code>
def _walkTree(tree,cur_files,walked_files):
	for cur_file, cur_deps in tree.iteritems():
		if cur_file in walked_files:
			continue
		elif cur_file in cur_files:
			# Deal with circular deps here. You might just do:
			# raise StopIteration
			raise ValueError, "Circular tree structure."
		if cur_deps:
			for sub_file in _walkTree(cur_deps,cur_files+(cur_file,),walked_files):
				yield sub_file
		walked_files.append(cur_file)
		yield cur_file

def walkTree(tree):
	"""Walk a tree as generated by makeTree."""

	for f in _walkTree(tree,(),[]):
		yield f
</code>

Well, hope this helps and gives you some hints!

Heiko.


From PPNTWIMBXFFC at spammotel.com  Wed Aug 11 02:06:33 2004
From: PPNTWIMBXFFC at spammotel.com (Marco Aschwanden)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:06:33 +0200
Subject: Yet another decorator proposal
Message-ID: <opscj0k7na35jo5o@news.gmane.org>


Here is yet another decorator proposal:

def sumSequencesLengths(var1, var2):
     """Computes something very important.

     __decorators__:
         staticmethod
     __parameters__:
         var1=Sequences
         var2=Sequences
     __returns__:
         int
     """
     result = len(var1) + len(var2)
     return result

Reasoning:
Decorators are important to communicate to the programmer. So, if someone 
wants to use decorators she better writes a documentation for it. So why 
not let the documentation enforce the whole decoration system?

The main advantages:
- Keeps the documentation up-to-date! The first language to do so (- 
doesn't it?)
- Enforces Python's readability further.
- Needs no new language constructs.


The main disadvantages:
- The values are frozen... the __decorators__ are set in a static string
- The definition follows after the def
- A "static" description has an impact on the "acting" program

There are really more pros and cons... it might be also only a 
"Schnapsidee" - after all I am no language designer.

Have a nice day,
Marco




From justin__devine at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 30 17:58:42 2004
From: justin__devine at hotmail.com (Justin)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 14:58:42 -0700
Subject: "Content-Length" header
In-Reply-To: <4p6dnegTwNnsA67cRVn-tg@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <ch07ui$edo@odbk17.prod.google.com>

I found the answer.  After about 3 hours of agonizing over it it turned
out to be CASE
some webservers are CASE SENSITVE about their urls and some are not.
unfortunately in order to standardize another part of my program I was
converting all the urls to .lower()
un-believeable

Thanks for your help

-Justin



From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz  Wed Aug 25 23:05:14 2004
From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:05:14 +1200
Subject: esoteric question about dict keys
In-Reply-To: <CFeJBls/K/5W089yn@the-wire.com>
References: <mailman.2023.1092997148.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<CFeJBls/K/5W089yn@the-wire.com>
Message-ID: <2p52bcFgrnkbU1@uni-berlin.de>

> In article <mailman.2023.1092997148.5135.python-list at python.org>,
> Alexis Roda <alexis.roda at urv.es> wrote:
> 
>> If I write my own dictionary-like
>> object, on wich the mutability of the keys is not a technical issue, is
>> considered blasphemous the use of dicts as keys?

No, not at all. If the algorithm you use for looking
up your mapping doesn't have any problem with mutability,
then using a dict (or indeed any comparable object)
as a key is fine.

-- 
Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept,
University of Canterbury,	
Christchurch, New Zealand
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg



From scott.b.drummonds.nospam at intel.com  Thu Aug 12 13:31:43 2004
From: scott.b.drummonds.nospam at intel.com (Scott Brady Drummonds)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 10:31:43 -0700
Subject: 'break' Causes Execution of Procedure?
References: <cfdif9$hhm$1@news01.intel.com> <cfdl76$j1m$1@news01.intel.com>
	<871xidqm2e.fsf@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <cfg9i0$rrc$1@news01.intel.com>

"John J. Lee" <jjl at pobox.com> wrote in message
news:871xidqm2e.fsf at pobox.com...
> "Scott Brady Drummonds" <scott.b.drummonds.nospam at intel.com> writes:
> [...]
> > DEBUG: advancing both simulators to 20178
> [...]
>
> Is this a threaded program?

Nope.

Scott

-- 
Remove .nospam from my e-mail address to mail me.





From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 16 22:50:16 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:50:16 -0500
Subject: Python secure?
In-Reply-To: <NIydnd-skK0q173cRVn-ow@powergate.ca>
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk><ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com><ZKRTc.3710$bJ2.23892@news1.mts.net>	<cforh6$qiv$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<mailman.1705.1092625838.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2xXTc.3775$bJ2.24876@news1.mts.net>
	<NIydnd-skK0q173cRVn-ow@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <4neUc.3991$bJ2.26560@news1.mts.net>

Peter Hansen wrote:
  > "unsecure language": a programming language which, by virtue
> of its structure, primitive libraries, awkward syntax, non-
> existent runtime, or other limitations tends to encourage
> and lead to the creation of software with gross security
> holes".  Viz. "C"
 >
 > A given programmer will be more likely to create safe and
 > secure software using Python than with C, thereby making
 > C the less secure...
 >
 > -Peter

Quite frankly I find C a perfectly viable language to write secure code. 
  It's only failing is that people don't understand how to use it before 
they type (which isn't exactly a failing of the language itself, but of 
the person using it).  A perfect example of this is pointers.  If people 
wouldn't rush, if they took there time to learn what's actually going 
on, they wouldn't make those mistakes.

I have avoided many a bug just by thinking about it for just a few 
minutes more, than typing the first thing (or second or third) that 
popped in my head.  It has made me slower than other programmers in the 
beginning of projects, but in the end I am as or more efficient than the 
others.

One cannot judge a language by it's ability to allow sloppyness.  In 
fact the structure of my code (ie indentation) didn't change one bit 
from C to when I learned Python.  Quite frankly, I've seen some crap 
Python code.  It's the programmer NOT the language.

I hope others see your clear bias towards Python as I have (One need 
only to look at your descriptions to see it.).  Remember, there is no 
one language that everything is good for.  Python, C, C++, Lisp, etc all 
have things that it is best to program in them.  It all depends on the 
projects requirements.


From Jeffrey at Fro.man  Fri Aug 20 01:03:59 2004
From: Jeffrey at Fro.man (Jeffrey Froman)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:03:59 -0700
Subject: Rita Sue and Bob too
References: <cg3ksb$bg5$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<YfedndCJKP2V47jcRVn-rQ@cablespeedwa.com>
Message-ID: <YfedndOJKP3dG7jcRVn-rQ@cablespeedwa.com>

Jeffrey Froman wrote:
> How about a generator?

Sorry, bad paste on my previous reply. The generator example should look
like:

def replace_in_list(apple, worm, new_worm):
    while apple:
        if worm == apple[:len(worm)]:
            apple = apple[len(worm):]
            for w in new_worm:
                yield w
        else:
            yield apple.pop(0)





From michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk  Fri Aug 20 06:19:45 2004
From: michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk (Michael Sparks)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:19:45 +0100
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <cg4jkv$4u4$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>

Paul McGuire wrote:
...
> I would propose a multivote survey: each poster gets 3 votes among the
> lettered choices on the Wiki page above.  You can use all 3 for a
> single option, or split them across 2 or 3 options if you are open to
> more than one.

My vote is: J2 J2 C1


Michael.
-- 
Michael.Sparks at rd.bbc.co.uk    
British Broadcasting Corporation, Research and Development
Kingswood Warren, Surrey KT20 6NP

This message (and any attachments) may contain personal views
which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.




From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Sat Aug 21 11:29:47 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 15:29:47 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<d22692a3.0408201107.46b5ca52@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <l4qei05h2labjbkpub9545l6b16v069naf@4ax.com>

On 20 Aug 2004 12:07:22 -0700, google at daishi.fastmail.fm (daishi)
wrote:

>C1 C1 C1
>
>If we are allowed to make negative votes:
>
>-J2 -J2 -J2
>
>I personally find J2 worse than the current pie
>syntax. Something that looks odd and does something
>odd seems the lesser evil vs something that looks
>normal yet does something odd.
>

A1 A1 A1

On a similar line of thinking  - if we do indeed need some syntax. And
the vote seems to assume we do, or at least accepts Anthony as
speaking with some authority (I hope he hasn't overstepped) by
declaring that not having some syntax in 2.4 is not an option.

And finding @before def is in-your-face odd.

Nobody would confuse it with real Python ;)

Art


From rpw3 at rpw3.org  Sun Aug 29 00:14:55 2004
From: rpw3 at rpw3.org (Rob Warnock)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 23:14:55 -0500
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<412e199e$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<jdoherty-2708041631070001@192.168.2.178>
	<4130654c$0$19703$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>
Message-ID: <cJWdnetJbNOixazcRVn-iA@speakeasy.net>

+---------------
| jdoherty at nowhere.null.not (John Doherty) wrote:
| >AND HOW MANY SPACES PER TAB STOP?
| 
| Eight.  Now talk about indenting skip returns...that one
| required blood transfusions.  [emoticon looks at list of n.g.]
| I guess not many will understand.
+---------------
      
You might be surprised, Barb. Quite a few of the comp.lang.lisp crew 
are former PDP-10 geeks.  ;-}
  
And just to be sure *I'm* understanding what you're talking about,  ;-}
did you mean the convention of the second line of the following snippet?
  
    foo:    pushj   p,ckperm
	     pjrst  badprm          ; user lacks privs, complain & return.
	    movei   t0,cmdblk       ; o.k. to proceed.
	    ...

Indenting the non-skip return for a subroutine call was always pretty 
clear to me. Where things got really muddled (and contentious!) was 
when you had long skip chains of T{R,L}{Z,O,C,~}{N,E} instructions 
in which whether a particular instruction was in the skipped-to or 
non-skipped position depended dynamically on the flow of control 
above it. [HAKMEM was chock-full of that kind of "efficient" code.]
In that case, it seemed more readable to simply not indent anything in
the skip chain, and put a scary comment warning about the tricky code.


-Rob

-----
Rob Warnock			<rpw3 at rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue			<URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403		(650)572-2607



From porky_pig_jr at my-deja.com  Tue Aug 24 02:47:12 2004
From: porky_pig_jr at my-deja.com (Porky Pig Jr)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 23:47:12 -0700
Subject: How does a "script" differ from a "program" or "subroutine"?
References: <cge1h0$8qd@odbk17.prod.google.com>
	<mailman.2253.1093310132.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <56cfb0e3.0408232247.2df68078@posting.google.com>

Phil Frost <indigo at bitglue.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.2253.1093310132.5135.python-list at python.org>...

> A script is just a program, but has the implication that it's a simple
> program for a simple task.
> 

I think the major implication is not that it's simple but it's written
in some 'interpreted' (rather than compiled) language. so we say
Python or Perl or Bash script, but not 'C script'. Look at the job
openings: you'll often see something like this: 'knowledge of
scripting languages (such as Perl and/or Python)'.


From esj at harvee.org  Thu Aug 26 20:30:45 2004
From: esj at harvee.org (Eric S. Johansson)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:30:45 -0400
Subject: file based queues
Message-ID: <cglvcg$15u$1@sea.gmane.org>

seems to me this would be a fairly obvious component to be part of the 
Python repertoire but I haven't found any yet.  I want to store objects 
persistently and have the underlying object behavior be that of a queue.

usually, this is implemented as a series of files within a directory or 
directory hierarchy but I'm not fussy.  Just as long as it doesn't have 
much overhead like mysql or twisted.

any suggestions?

--- eric



From specmark at aol.com  Wed Aug 11 16:38:46 2004
From: specmark at aol.com (expecthealth)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 20:38:46 -0000
Subject: CSV Specialists -- NEW JERSEY - WORK Day or Night ............
Message-ID: <cfe04m+9t88@eGroups.com>

Job responsibilities: Execution of protocols only. No writing on this 
project. Requirements: Previous company experience (we are aware that 
not everyone has previous company experience, but are trying to group 
them with some Sr. Consultants we have that do) Execution of CSV 
protocols and Knowledge or exposure to calibration systems...will be 
trained further.Bill rate will vary based on experience and company 
experience: $32-37/hr,all inclusive .Shifts will be 9 hour shifts 
having a one hour overlap to hand over work to the next team:12am-
9am, 8am-4pm, 3pm-12am  (please let me know preference...but if they 
are flexible that would be great)Location: Kenilworth, NJ Start Date: 
the week of August 16th, probably a couple of weeks work. There will 
be a couple of downtimes and the Consultants will be offered 
additional work to do or to take the time off. Thanks, Bill 
NorrisDIAMOND CONSULTING INC.630-586-0000 x19specmark at aol.com



From me at privacy.net  Thu Aug 19 11:09:50 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Richard Hanson)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:09:50 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<u_6dneootdi_yL7cRVn-jg@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <o8e9i0lrinvo5olbcuth443qk14gtl2mks@4ax.com>

Peter Hansen wrote:

>Lucas Raab wrote:
>> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
>> Python programmer?? 
>
>My average age has been increasing steadily for years. :-(

 :-)

(And ditto on the ':-('.)

While I agree with Peter -- and particularly, his ending emoticon
on *all* levels, I have to ask:

 -- Was the OP asking about my age in *human* years... -- or
*Richard* years?

(One Richard year approximately equals *two* human years...)

;-)

over-a-century-in-"Richard"-years'ly y'rs,
Richard

-- 
R Hanson [The mangled email addie below works.]
sick<P0INT>ole<PERI0D>fart<PIE_DEC0_SYNTAX>newsguy<MARK>com


From erica55 at bol.com.br  Mon Aug 16 00:20:42 2004
From: erica55 at bol.com.br (Erica Silveira)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 01:20:42 -0300
Subject: listagem de e-mails
Message-ID: <20040816042025.065BA1E4007@bag.python.org>

Mais Emails, venda online de listas de email, fazemos mala direta e 
propaganda de sua empresa ou neg?cio para milh?es de emails. Temos listas 
de email Mala Direta, Mala-Direta, Cadastro de Emails, Lista de Emails, 
Mailing List, Milh?es de Emails, Programas de Envio de Email, Email 
Bombers, Extratores de Email, Listas Segmentadas de Email, Emails 
Segmentados, Emails em Massa, E-mails

http://www.promonet.mx.gs

Temos listas de email Mala Direta, Mala-Direta, Cadastro de Emails, Lista 
de Emails, Mailing List, Milh?es de Emails, Programas de Envio de Email, 
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http://www.promonet.mx.gs


From http  Thu Aug 26 13:09:35 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 10:09:35 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgkeio$spo$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <7xhdqp967k.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Michael Sparks <michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk> writes:
> It might (or might not) be too late but just as a check I checked
> to see if "per" is used by any projects listed in the proposal. (I
> was checking Twisted and Zope for "using" so decided to do "per" as well)

I'm still not crazy about J2 but I like "per" much better than "using".

I'm afraid that the clpy proposals, and the @pie syntax, both seem to
me like "extreme programming", i.e. an approach of "if you see a
reasonable looking approach to a problem, implement it without
worrying too much, and re-do ('refactor') it afterwards if it turns
out not to be the right thing.  But for new language syntax, whatever
gets implemented, we are going to be stuck with.  There will be no
refactoring possible.  It's imperative to get it right the first time.
The Scheme community understood this idea and was extremely careful
about adding new features to Scheme even when it was clear that the
features were needed.  I think Scheme benefited as a result.


From richardjones at optushome.com.au  Tue Aug  3 06:49:41 2004
From: richardjones at optushome.com.au (richard)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 20:49:41 +1000
Subject: advice for perl expert wanting to learn python
References: <slrncguga2.fcp.mordor@fly.srk.fer.hr>
Message-ID: <410f6dcb$0$16887$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>

Zeljko Vrba wrote:
> What's the easiest way of learning python knowing perl? Is there somewhere
> a 'how-to' cookbook with parallel examples of frequent idioms in perl and
> python?

A good start might be:

http://www.python.org/doc/Intros.html

under the "Introductions for programmers" heading.

Then there's http://www.python.org/doc/Comparisons.html#perl which has
direct comparisons.


> And most important thing, how does Python deal with database connectivity?
> Is there a single API (akin to DBI) for connecting to databases?

There is a DB-API standard, which is implemented by the various connectors.


> How does Python support the following databases:
> - Oracle
> - Postgres
> - MySQL
> - SQLServer (maybe using freetds?)
> - ODBC connectivity (connecting to MS Access)

Well.


    Richard



From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 18 08:35:21 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 08:35:21 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
In-Reply-To: <m2vffgd6pu.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
References: <mailman.1829.1092785390.5135.python-list@python.org>	<65adnQrUKILiC7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>	<mailman.1834.1092791633.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<m2vffgd6pu.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
Message-ID: <cfvie7$dh8$1@sea.gmane.org>

Dan Sommers wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:13:47 -0400,
> Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>First though, I still believe that we should exploit existing
>>conventions (recommended coding practices) as a way of getting 'free'
>>declarations for class, static, and instance methods (e.g. methods
>>whose first param is 'self' are instance methods, etc.). That feels
>>very pythonic to me, just as we use naming conventions to distinguish
>>public, private, and semi-private methods.
> 
> 
> I don't understand how assigning semantic significance to a "recommended
> coding practice" is Pythonic.
> 
> In the face of ambiguity, refuse to guess.
> 
> Explicit is better than implicit.
> 

Good conventions prevent ambiguity.

    class Foo:
       def method1(self, a, b): pass       # clearly an instance method
       def method2(cls, a, b): pass        # clearly a class method
       def method3(a, b): pass             # clearly a static method


When declarations conflict with conventions, it makes us wonder what the 
author really intended.

       def staticmethod setX(self, x):
           self.x = x

 >
 > I think that the idea that started this thread is just right:
 >

You're right, this thread is about decorators, not about more 
opportunities for dynamic typing.  I just wanted to remind us that 
decorators are a lot like static typing, which isn't terribly pythonic.



From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 17 07:30:38 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 07:30:38 -0400
Subject: serial and threads
In-Reply-To: <39ba6e78.0408170215.3368be4e@posting.google.com>
References: <39ba6e78.0408170215.3368be4e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <6KSdnRe269vCcbzcRVn-rg@powergate.ca>

Silke wrote:
> I'm trying to write a program in python using the modules
> 'serialwin32' and 'thread' to create one thread that writes to a
> serial port and another one that reads from it at 'the same time'. My
> definitions are
> 
> def NetworkToSerial(input):
>         s.write(binascii.unhexlify(input))        
>         print "SENT: %s" % input                  
> 
> def SerialToNetwork():
>                 result = s.read(1)
>                 print "RECEIVED:"
>                 print binascii.hexlify(result) 
> 
> and I call them with
> 
> thread.start_new_thread(NetworkToSerial, (command,))             
> thread.start_new_thread(SerialToNetwork, ())
> 
> The first one seems to run fine, but for the second one I get the
> error message 'ClearCommError', 'the handle is invalid'.

How do you open the serial port and pass the "handle" to
the two threads?  Or are you just using a global "s"?


From nospam at mega-nerd.com  Fri Aug 13 05:41:45 2004
From: nospam at mega-nerd.com (Erik de Castro Lopo)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 19:41:45 +1000
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
Message-ID: <411C8CD9.32F39C2@mega-nerd.com>

Nick Patavalis wrote:
> 

<snip>

> Python needs drastic performance improvement if it is to scrap-off the
> "scripting language" stigma. The only way to get these improvements is
> making it possible for a python implementation to produce *efficient*
> *compiled* code. At the same time the dynamic-typing nature of the
> language is one of its most valuable characteristics. And this is one
> of the hardest problems when trying to write a decent python
> compiler. If you define a function like:
> 
>   def sum (a, b):
>     return a + b
> 
> How can the compiler know what code to produce? 

I know of at least one language which has solved this problem, Ocaml

    http://www.ocaml.org/

Its called type inferencing and since there is at least one working 
implementation, it can't be THAT hard.


Erik
-- 
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
  Erik de Castro Lopo  nospam at mega-nerd.com (Yes it's valid)
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
Never argue with stupid people. They'll just drag you down to
their level and beat you with experience


From kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no  Mon Aug 30 20:10:13 2004
From: kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Torgrim Homme)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 02:10:13 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<tyf3c28ps1t.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
	<1ry8k0d2az.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<10iv0kid2ig9ka6@corp.supernews.com>
	<1rpt5ccbso.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<10ivpk9inpnh65@corp.supernews.com>
	<1rd61bd26k.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<1gj892g.1hlc8ar1po78b6N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1rwtzg9nh6.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>

[Alex Martelli]:
>
>   [good stuff]

I just wanted to thank you for your input, I'll try to mention some of
these ideas in the text of the PEP.
-- 
Kjetil T.


From borkent at cs.utwente.nl  Thu Aug 26 07:35:38 2004
From: borkent at cs.utwente.nl (Michiel Borkent)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:35:38 +0200
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<VJOdnfiBTci22rDcRVn-gg@adelphia.com>
	<aNidnUSV4-OK4rDcRVn-jA@powergate.ca>
	<cgkfs3$b87$1@ares.cs.utwente.nl>
	<Nbudnes8cfDjWLDcRVn-sA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <cgkhtp$duf$1@ares.cs.utwente.nl>

Jes, mi komprenis. Dankon por la inspiro: mi jxus kreis novan subskribajxon.

Amike,
Michiel
-- 
LISP and Esperanto: my favorite languages.
Visit http://www.pictureofthemoon.net/~borkent  for my webpage.
---

"Peter Hansen" <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message
news:Nbudnes8cfDjWLDcRVn-sA at powergate.ca...
> Michiel Borkent wrote:
>
> > "Peter Hansen" <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> >>No, it's Esperanto (universal language) for "troll"...
>
> > Erm, please don't make false propaganda for the language I happen to
love
> > ;).
> >
> > Btw:
> >
> > (english-to-esperanto "troll") ==> "trolo"
>
> Pardonu... estis sxerco, evidente!
>
> -Peter



From indigo at bitglue.com  Tue Aug 17 18:26:28 2004
From: indigo at bitglue.com (Phil Frost)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 18:26:28 -0400
Subject: favorite python web development tool?
In-Reply-To: <10i4nttktcvltdd@corp.supernews.com>
References: <10i4nttktcvltdd@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <20040817222628.GB13426@unununium.org>

I use Twisted + Nevow. twistedmatrix.com, divmod.org, nevow.com

On Tue, Aug 17, 2004 at 03:43:22PM -0400, mike wrote:
> hi all -
> 
> 
> i'm fairly new to python, coming from a java servlet / velocity template 
> background.  i'm looking for a good python web development tool, and 
> hope to find some suggestions here.
> 
> given my background, webware+cheetah feels comfortingly familiar, and 
> i'm leaning toward it.  before i dive in, though, i'm wondering what you 
> experienced users think about it, compared to the other tools that are 
> out there.  eg, does the python environment have strengths that are 
> better exploited with something other than a servlet-like model?
> 
> 
> thanks for your thoughts!


From fumanchu at amor.org  Mon Aug 30 11:13:52 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 08:13:52 -0700
Subject: why does this fail on python 2.2?
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E96@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

John Hunter wrote:
> class Results(object):
>     __slots__ = ( "__doinit" )
>     def __new__(cls):
>         retobj = object.__new__(cls)
>         retobj.__doinit = True
>         return retobj

Not sure why that fails, but I am wondering why you chose:

retobj = object.__new__(cls)

over:

retobj = cls()

Perhaps you're "digging too deep" on the supercall.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Fri Aug 20 10:12:50 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:12:50 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <cg4uiu$53$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<Hu-dndEv47ZxYbjcRVn-pA@giganews.com>
	<cg4uiu$53$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
Message-ID: <1IqdnUhRpch8m7vcRVn-vQ@giganews.com>

David Fraser wrote:

> Thats because the point of this vote is to try and gather a consensus 
> about what the best alternative is,

But what if the alternative is that you don't need a best
alternative? There lies the crux of the problem.

 > not to try and out-vote the original contender.

If you cannot out-vote the original contender than what
is the whole point of the poll? Why would this proposal be
accepted  if it cannot outclass the original one?

Voting is an extremely tricky business. Arrow's theorem
proves that there is not voting scheme that could provide
a proper selection whenever there are more than two candidates
(in the two candidate case the scheme is simple majority).

Yet there are better and there are worse ways to reduce
the field to two candidates. What this poll attempts to do
(going only after the second place) is incorrect. It is bad
not just from the inherent unreliability of internet
polling but from design perspective.

Istvan.


From elciof at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 12:22:39 2004
From: elciof at gmail.com (Elcio Ferreira)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:22:39 -0300
Subject: Newbie question about file input
In-Reply-To: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPGENLCDAA.ben@benlast.com>
References: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPGENLCDAA.ben@benlast.com>
Message-ID: <75fc9ad504081609226eca03f@mail.gmail.com>

> while 1:
>   line = zf.readline()
>   if not line:
>     break

Newbie's question:

Isn't it a strange way to do a loop? Create a loop with a foo
condition and use an if to break it?

=====
line=zf.readline()
while line:
    . . .
    line=zf.readline()
=====

Isn't this code much more easy to understand?

-- 
--
Um [ ]!

Elcio
http://elcio.locaweb.com.br/
http://www.tableless.com.br/
http://www.atipico.com.br/


From follower at gmail.com  Tue Aug 10 10:01:22 2004
From: follower at gmail.com (Follower)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 07:01:22 -0700
Subject: [ANN] libgmail 0.0.1 -- Gmail access via Python
References: <3c18c08f.0407011159.9243ee1@posting.google.com>
	<6491b0ab.0407241411.2fa426b3@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <3c18c08f.0408100601.2f45aa5a@posting.google.com>

Hi Fazer,

Thanks for your feedback.

faizans at gmail.com (Fazer) wrote in message news:<6491b0ab.0407241411.2fa426b3 at posting.google.com>...
> [Snip]
> Is it possible to delete an email using this library?
I hope you don't mind me delaying the answer to this question until I
could answer in the affirmative. (Rather than promising vapourware...
:-) )

I have just committed code into CVS to enable message and thread
trashing functionality. (It will appear in the 0.0.8 release.) The new
`GmailAccount` methods `trashMessage` and `trashThread` will move a
message or thread into the trash.

I intend to add functionality to permanently delete items & mark items
as spam in the future, but it's not there yet.
 
Hope this is useful.

--Phil.


From Sibylle.Koczian at Bibliothek.Uni-Augsburg.de  Thu Aug 26 04:21:53 2004
From: Sibylle.Koczian at Bibliothek.Uni-Augsburg.de (Sibylle Koczian)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:21:53 +0200
Subject: Idle problem
In-Reply-To: <pbvvv1-b5k.ln1@suse.zobbo.org>
References: <6haXc.183583$8_6.163380@attbi_s04> <pbvvv1-b5k.ln1@suse.zobbo.org>
Message-ID: <2p5kt1Fgka4tU1@uni-berlin.de>

Ian J Cottee schrieb:

> Brent W. Hughes wrote:
> 
>> Sometimes when I try to start up idle.py (by double-clicking on the 
>> icon), I
>> get the message:
>> Python subprocess socket error: Connection refused, retrying....
>> It repeats the message a couple of times and then prints:
>> Connection to Idle failed, exiting.
>>
>> Any idea what's going on?
> 
> 
> http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/Message/python-dev/1748187
> 
> Doesn't offer any conclusions but might point you in the right direction.
> 
Seems to suggest two possibilities: the firewall issue mentioned in Ben 
McGinnes' answer or else no sockets - if a machine is not part of any 
local network and has no network software at all installed. If I 
understand that thread correctly that might even be the case if it's 
connected to the internet by modem and dial-up access. I'd think a "ping 
localhost" should show this.

Koczian

-- 
Dr. Sibylle Koczian
Universitaetsbibliothek, Abt. Naturwiss.
D-86135 Augsburg

Tel.: (0821) 598-2400, Fax : (0821) 598-2410
e-mail : Sibylle.Koczian at Bibliothek.Uni-Augsburg.DE


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 23 13:09:24 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:09:24 -0400
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
In-Reply-To: <2ouldeFf0ujnU2@uni-berlin.de>
References: <mailman.2154.1093185852.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2ouldeFf0ujnU2@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <l9WdnYjM5-bXubfcRVn-vQ@powergate.ca>

Oliver Fromme wrote:
> Aren't decorators just functions that are applied to the
> function definition?  Then how about "apply"?  It's short
> (for those lazy typers), and it expresses exactly what
> happens.


Python 2.3.4 (#53, May 25 2004, 21:17:02) [MSC v.1200 32 bit (Intel)] on 
win32
 >>> apply
<built-in function apply>


I'm fairly sure that fact alone would cause a lot of grief in one
way or the other.

-Peter


From BruceWhoHKL at gawab.com  Wed Aug 18 23:02:23 2004
From: BruceWhoHKL at gawab.com (BruceKL WhoH)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:02:23 +0800
Subject: metaclass ???
Message-ID: <20040819030134.ACD6D1E4005@bag.python.org>

Mike C. Fletcher:

	 Now I know that we can use metaclass to add method for class,not instance.
Maybe I never need to use metaclass. Perhaps I'll understand it when I'm really need something like this.
     Thanks for your help.

======= 2004-08-19 10:36:17 Mike C. Fletcher wrote: =======

>BruceKL WhoH wrote:
>...
>
>>    What I'm trying to do is :
>>    I want to make two class, they are just subtly different,for example
>>  
>>
>...
>
>>all other codes are identical,just f is different.
>>    So can I use meta-class here? Or I should do this by another way?
>>  
>>
>If this is the entire specification of what you need to do, it really
>seems as though you'd be better off with mix-in classes. Your code would
>then look like this:
>
>class Base:
>"""Base class providing common functionality"""
># your shared code here
>
>class A( Base ):
>"""Overrides method f only"""
>def f(self):
>print 'a'
>
>class B( Base ):
>"""Overrides method f only"""
>def f(self):
>print 'b'
>
>The first page of the presentation is intended to warn you that, in
>general, most programmers never need to use metaclasses, even after
>years of work in the language. The use cases for them are fairly exotic,
>not the kind of thing you find in "normal" programming operations.
>
>There are cases where you might want to use metaclasses to inject a
>method into a class (as covered in the presentation), but those
>use-cases tend to be more involved than simply wanting to have 1 method
>change. Those cases are normally going to involve making a *decision* at
>run-time as to which method implementation to include, for instance
>based on the presence/absence of other methods or a data-attribute of
>the class.
>
>>    BTW,your pdf is quite nice,how do you make it? Beamer,pdfscreen, or PPT ?
>>  
>>
>OpenOffice.org Presenter (PowerPoint-like app) has a built-in export to PDF.
>
>Have fun,
>Mike
>
>________________________________________________
>  Mike C. Fletcher
>  Designer, VR Plumber, Coder
>  http://www.vrplumber.com
>  http://blog.vrplumber.com
>
>-- 
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
			

????????BruceKL WhoH
????????BruceWhoHKL at gawab.com
??????????2004-08-19


From bik.mido at tiscalinet.it  Mon Aug 30 02:19:18 2004
From: bik.mido at tiscalinet.it (Michele Dondi)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 08:19:18 +0200
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<2a56f6a3.0408252257.4f1f92e@posting.google.com>
	<2p5j10FesankU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <ie04j09aicmhtquf4n2sk9msq2t2b6teap@4ax.com>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:49:48 +0200, "Tassilo v. Parseval"
<tassilo.von.parseval at rwth-aachen.de> wrote:

>> I bet Larry Wall's life insurance premiums just skyrocketed. 
>
>It would, if anyone could take Xah Lee Loo seriously. But really, no one
>can. He's more like the court jester, creeping out of the dark every so
>and so months. We're all very much enjoying his sporadic shows. Really. 

Really!


Michele
-- 
you'll see that it shouldn't be so. AND, the writting as usuall is
fantastic incompetent. To illustrate, i quote:
- Xah Lee trolling on clpmisc,
  "perl bug File::Basename and Perl's nature"


From claird at lairds.us  Tue Aug 24 09:08:12 2004
From: claird at lairds.us (Cameron Laird)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:08:12 GMT
Subject: How does a "script" differ from a "program" or "subroutine"?
References: <cge1h0$8qd@odbk17.prod.google.com>
	<mailman.2253.1093310132.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<56cfb0e3.0408232247.2df68078@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <unorv1-s8f.ln1@lairds.us>

In article <56cfb0e3.0408232247.2df68078 at posting.google.com>,
Porky Pig Jr <porky_pig_jr at my-deja.com> wrote:
>Phil Frost <indigo at bitglue.com> wrote in message
>news:<mailman.2253.1093310132.5135.python-list at python.org>...
>
>> A script is just a program, but has the implication that it's a simple
>> program for a simple task.
>> 
>
>I think the major implication is not that it's simple but it's written
>in some 'interpreted' (rather than compiled) language. so we say
>Python or Perl or Bash script, but not 'C script'. Look at the job
>openings: you'll often see something like this: 'knowledge of
>scripting languages (such as Perl and/or Python)'.

All true--but we also shouldn't limit ourselves to the notoriously
imprecise dialect of employment advertisements.  Let's recognize
that's how managers and HR functionaries talk, but recognize that
our own concepts need to be sharper.


From eppstein at ics.uci.edu  Sun Aug 29 16:58:38 2004
From: eppstein at ics.uci.edu (David Eppstein)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 13:58:38 -0700
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>
	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>
	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>
	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>
	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>
	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>
	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>
	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>
	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>
	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<e69d3ed20408291006ce164c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.2580.1093800655.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <eppstein-55AD8F.13583829082004@news.service.uci.edu>

In article <mailman.2580.1093800655.5135.python-list at python.org>,
 Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Anthony Baxter wrote:
> > On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 12:10:13 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > 
> >>For example, in the following function def, the comments specify (what I
> >>believe is) the author's intention behind each assignment.
> >>
> >>    def circu(diameter):
> >>       """Info about circu."""        # defines circu.__doc__
> >>       __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'     # defines circu.__author__
> >>       __features__ = memoized        # defines circu.__features__
> >>       pi = 3.14                      # local variable definition
> >>       return pi * diameter
> > 
> > 
> > Not in any Python I know of. I look at that and I think "oo, local 
> > variables". 
> > 
> > That you have a different belief doesn't make it right - I remain
> > _extremely_ unconvinced.
> > 
> > Anthony
> 
> My belief doesn't make it right, that's true.  But I think that a 
> preponderance of supporting evidence does.
> 
> Have you seen a significant number of cases where a function uses 
> __xxx__ attributes as local variables?  Have you seen any?

So we really need to return to the FORTRAN days where variables have 
different semantics depending on their first character?
Anyway, regardless of whether it's a local variable or an attribute, if 
it's in the function body I expect it to be executed at call time not 
def time.

-- 
David Eppstein
Computer Science Dept., Univ. of California, Irvine
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/


From gh at ghaering.de  Mon Aug  2 13:08:43 2004
From: gh at ghaering.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gerhard_H=E4ring?=)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 19:08:43 +0200
Subject: MySQLdb select
In-Reply-To: <OFDD9817BA.40D68968-ON42256EE4.0025F0FF-42256EE4.002633C4@clover.co.za>
References: <OFDD9817BA.40D68968-ON42256EE4.0025F0FF-42256EE4.002633C4@clover.co.za>
Message-ID: <410E751B.6000604@ghaering.de>

Jaco Smuts wrote:
> Gerhard
> 
> That's sounds like great advice, not sure I've seen documentation on how 
> to do this though? [...]

Harald Massa explained it really good in this thread.

-- Gerhard


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 31 15:19:36 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 15:19:36 -0400
Subject: Immutable sequence types lacking index() method
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2685.1093979591.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2685.1093979591.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <fNadnYX6N-bXUqncRVn-sA@powergate.ca>

Anne Wangnick wrote:

> I don't get why the index() method is only defined for mutable sequence
> types. This is not what I expected. Shouldn't this be added in Python? Is
> there such a PEP already?

I don't believe such simple changes require a PEP.  They do,
however, require someone actually requesting it (which is to
say not here, but in the appropriate Sourceforge tracker)
and someone else deciding it should be done and maybe a
third person actually doing it.  I suspect no one has done
the first step yet, though before you do, check past requests
to see if it was requested and rejected.

Note that the only reason .index() exists even for lists (as
opposed to merely for strings) was because I** requested it,
and someone implemented it (I believe it was Raymond Hettinger
but my memory is notoriously poor).

Note that while .index() makes sense for some sequences,
such as strings and lists, it doesn't make sense for the
way in which tuples are "supposed to be used", which is
as collections of heterogeneous data and not usually as
simply read-only lists.  Of course, that debate is still
ongoing and there is always the argument that one has to
turn lists into tuples to use them as dictionary keys,
so the only way to resolve the question is to request the
change (but not here) and see what happens.

-Peter

** I think it was me, but I'm not even sure about that.


From sharidas at zeomega.com  Thu Aug 19 02:37:48 2004
From: sharidas at zeomega.com (Satchidanand Haridas)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:07:48 +0530
Subject: inverse of izip
In-Reply-To: <d11dcfba.0408182144.14aad4a8@posting.google.com>
References: <d11dcfba.0408182144.14aad4a8@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <41244ABC.5020704@zeomega.com>


Steven Bethard wrote:

>So I know that zip(*) is the inverse of zip(), e.g.:
>
>  
>
>>>>zip(*zip(range(10), range(10)))
>>>>        
>>>>
>[(0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9), (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)]
>
>What's the inverse of izip?  Of course, I could use zip(*) or izip(*),
>e.g.:
>
>  
>
>>>>zip(*itertools.izip(range(10), range(10)))
>>>>        
>>>>
>[(0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9), (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)]
>  
>
>>>>x, y = itertools.izip(*itertools.izip(range(10), range(10)))
>>>>x, y
>>>>        
>>>>
>((0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9), (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9))
>
>But then I get a pair of tuples, not a pair of iterators.  Basically,
>I want to convert an iterator of tuples into a tuple of iterators.
>
>Steve
>  
>
---------------------------------

 >>> a = itertools.izip(*itertools.izip(range(10),range(10)))
 >>> a
<itertools.izip object at 0x40164f2c>

 >>>a.next()
(0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)
 >>> a.next()
(0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)
 >>> a.next()
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
StopIteration

-----------------------------


Regards,
Satchit


----
Satchidanand Haridas (sharidas at zeomega dot com)

ZeOmega (www.zeomega.com)
Open  Minds' Open Solutions

#20,Rajalakshmi Plaza,
South End Road,
Basavanagudi,
Bangalore-560 004, India





From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 12 00:33:23 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 00:33:23 -0400
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
In-Reply-To: <60dfb6f6.0408111846.615ee9eb@posting.google.com>
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
	<60dfb6f6.0408111846.615ee9eb@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <3YWdnYxLf--ObofcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>

Carl Banks wrote:

> steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard) wrote in message news:<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8 at posting.google.com>...
> 
>>I know there were complaints before about this sort of indentation,
>>but I couldn't find them in python-dev and the comments in the wiki
>>don't discuss this in any detail.  Can anyone tell me why this
>>indentation syntax was dispreferred?  Specifically, I'm interested in
>>why this is so drastically different from the other paired blocks:
>>if/elif/else, try/except, try/finally, etc. 
> 
> One thing that's different is that, in all those cases, the second
> block has a keyword that can't appear alone.  You can't have an except
> without a try, or an else without an if, but you could have a def
> without a decorate.

Is this merely a pedantic argument (not sure I use "pedantic" correctly)
or is this an argument based on presumed difficulties in implementing
the idea?

I ask because I'm not sure the issue matters to anyone writing
or reading the code.  It certainly wouldn't bother me that
with if/else it's the first part that's required, while with
decorate/def it's the second part.

-Peter


From maxm at mxm.dk  Wed Aug 25 05:10:47 2004
From: maxm at mxm.dk (Max M)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:10:47 +0200
Subject: Why return None?
In-Reply-To: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
Message-ID: <412c57c2$0$194$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>

Martin DeMello wrote:

> It seems to be a fairly common pattern for an object-modifying method to
> return None - however, this is often quite inconvenient.


With newstyle classe you can subclass the list class and make some 
functions return self.

class List(list):

     def sort(self):
         list.sort(self)
         return self


l = List([1,2,4,2,5,2,6])
print l.sort()

 >>>[1, 2, 2, 2, 4, 5, 6]

Well ok. Sort is a bad example, as you could just use sorted() insted.


regards Max M


From zathras at thwackety.com  Thu Aug 26 15:14:33 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:14:33 +0100
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgkeio$spo$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<7xhdqp967k.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <412e3ba4$0$92817$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>

Paul Rubin wrote:
> Michael Sparks <michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk> writes:
>> It might (or might not) be too late but just as a check I checked
>> to see if "per" is used by any projects listed in the proposal. (I
>> was checking Twisted and Zope for "using" so decided to do "per" as well)
> 
> I'm still not crazy about J2 but I like "per" much better than "using".

It's very possible that we might end up with @pie syntax or nothing. (I
suspect the latter is very unlikely, but it's still possible)

> I'm afraid that the clpy proposals, and the @pie syntax, both seem to
> me like "extreme programming", [ which isn't really very good for 
> language _design _ ]

I think I'd agree. However for many people outside of python-dev and those
who only dip into c.l.p, the @pie came as a big shock. I think that was
compounded by the impact on commonly used tools. 

Why a shock? My recollection of the discussion regarding decorators (which I
first encountered at EuroPython) was pretty much:
   * Who wants list before def? (Lots of votes - let's call it X)
   * Who prefers list after def? (Lots of votes - about the same as X)
   * Who'd prefer to delay their introduction in favour of a better syntax
     (about 2*X) ?

There was also a comment regarding Java style decorators using an @ sign,
but I don't recall any real discussion on the topic, and I also don't
recall any example. There's a good chance I've misremembered things
however! Between Europython and now despite dipping in & out of occasional
posts for the mailing list digest I didn't spot anything serious regarding
decorators until the @pie syntax was merged.

That's not anyone's fault IMO, just the way it is, most people tend to
concentrate more on what they're doing than everyone else. I also suspect
that I'm not atypical - it's not that I didn't care, it's just that as has
been said we all have a finite amount of time to devote to things we care
about, and lets face it, we do all trust Guido and the rest of the team.

My personal initial reaction to the syntax was "ugh", followed by listening
to arguments and deciding that I could live with @pie happily (I do like
perl after all so I've not got a huge aversion to punctuation). Then a nice
alternative (IMO) was posted leading to me wondering how hard it would be
to implement. (I've been rather pleasantly surprised I'm pleased to say :)

Personally I think this has led to a useful discussion, albeit crushed up in
a very short time span. However there are several things could happen now:

   1 The @pie implementation might stay as is.
   2 The @pie implementation might stay, but require explicit activation
     needing a __future__ statement. This to my mind is a good option - it
     clearly marks the feature as experimental, making people shy away from
     use unless they really do need it.
   3 J2 might be accepted.
   4 The feature might be ripped out
   * etc...

Options 2 or 3 strike me as the best approach here - introduce a feature,
mark it as experimental, with a large warning that it might change in the
next release. That potentially allows the best of both worlds - people can
use the feature in earnest, but do so on the understanding that the feature
may change in a later release meaning that if they use it they have to be
prepared to change their code. Furthermore if they release code using the
feature they should be very careful how they use the feature.

Speaking from personal experience we started using generators in 2.2 because
they allowed a modicum of co-routine type behaviour (indeed this was part of
the reason for choosing python), but the fact you had to put __future__
statements in everywhere in order to use them ensured that we limited their
use to one location.

I would hope that functionality added into a __future__ module would move
from __future__ to standard syntax unchanged, but it does allow Guido and
co the ability to change the language in those areas. It's for this reason
that I *hope* that any decorator syntax when the final decision is taken is
only introduced via the __future__ module approach.

I do share your concerns about "if it's a mistake we're stuck with it", but
unless something goes in there are two problems:
   * People will revert to using metaclass approaches, which having
     tried them I think people will find worse than something more
     explicit & in your face. (Almost any syntax on the wiki IMO is
     better than a metaclass approach)
   * There will be no single approach taken - leading to more hidden magic
     than you can shake a stick at...

At the end of the day though, the decision lies with someone we all trust
the judgement of. Even the J2 patch is just a means of opening up options.
The only way sometimes of discovering something is a mistake is to try it.
The patch allows Guido and everyone else to decide whether it is a mistake
or not.

Almost finally, personally I think this process has been enormously
productive - it's gotten many more people involved in python than before,
there has been constructive discussion that whilst perhaps it should've
happened months ago it HAS happened. Personally this strikes me as
incredibly healthy.

Finally, if there is a chance that the syntax will have to change after it's
been used in earnest then IMHO option A1 should be chosen, via a __future__
import. Whilst I'm obviously in favour of J2, option A1 strikes me as by
_far_ the simplest to write or provide tools to programmatically munge
people's code if syntax does change. (Much like the tools to remove
unnecessary __future__ statements)

Best Regards,


Michael.



From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Thu Aug  5 13:39:25 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:39:25 -0400
Subject: Confused about pep 318
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1210.1091725930.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051249050.10473-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1210.1091725930.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051328560.10964-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Anthony Baxter wrote:

> > That thread reaches no consensus, other than, in his sole post in the
> > thread, Guido stating "I would love to see an implementation of this
> > idea."  Nothing about "this is going to be in 2.4a2, anybody vehemently
> > opposed to it?"  Like I said, the go-ahead was given privately.
> 
> None of the decorator discussions _ever_ reached a conclusion. As mwh put it,
> "bike-shed-the-ultimate". At the end of the day, Guido's the one who makes
> these decisions. His decision was that the @ syntax should go into 2.4a2.

I can't speak for everybody, but I would've liked some closure on the 
issue before it was injected into 2.4a2.  From what I can tell, in the 
public's mind, the syntax of decorators was still an open issue, and if 
anything was going to make it in, it was going to be the "def foo() 
[dec]:" syntax that was currently in favour.  No-one was prepared for the 
introduction of the @ syntax.



From chrisks at NOSPAMudel.edu  Fri Aug  6 04:50:19 2004
From: chrisks at NOSPAMudel.edu (Chris S.)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 08:50:19 GMT
Subject: Object Reference?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1259.1091771181.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <HQEQc.6327$rM6.4368@trndny03>
	<mailman.1259.1091771181.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <fDHQc.2929$an.316@trndny08>

Anthony Baxter wrote:

> On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 05:39:51 GMT, Chris S. <chrisks at nospamudel.edu> wrote:
> 
>>Naturally, I could just recursively parse all the data comparing every
>>element to every previously listed object, but is there a less obtrusive
>>method? Python figures out when to delete objects based on the remaining
>>references to an object. Is there a way to access this information to
>>automatically lookup these references? Any help is greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> Use the "id()" of the objects?

Well, I was thinking of a function that takes an object's id and returns 
the ids of all the objects that reference it. Given that Python keeps 
this information internally (I believe), my question is how do I access 
his data and what would be the easiest way to code this function?


From vsoftsmith at aol.com  Wed Aug 18 16:20:25 2004
From: vsoftsmith at aol.com (VSOFTSMITH)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 20:20:25 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <mailman.1887.1092851179.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20040818162025.23951.00004040@mb-m28.aol.com>

age 62
yes it is harder, less willing to "waste"
time on unnecessary complexity
but i know what questions to ask so it is a lot of fun


From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Aug 11 00:05:32 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (simo)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 21:05:32 -0700
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
	<cf8trp$lnp$1@nic.grnet.gr>
	<a22gh0dsb94ffqqjqhb3igufi65ap7pg4d@4ax.com>
	<pkulu1-74f.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
Message-ID: <30260531.0408102005.5847b9c@posting.google.com>

"Roger Binns" <rogerb at rogerbinns.com> wrote:

> You will also see the downloads for Windows, Linux and Mac.
> End users simply see what looks like a normal setup and
> a normal program.  They never know or need to know that
> there is Python involved.

I noticed you have RPMs for Linux - so what do they include - a
complete wxWidgets/GTK+/Python distribution, plus your files?


From dougfort at dougfort.com  Fri Aug  6 11:06:29 2004
From: dougfort at dougfort.com (Doug Fort)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 15:06:29 GMT
Subject: 'Using is not None, may not always work'
References: <pan.2004.08.06.13.15.28.336325@dougfort.com>
	<cf06ij$k2g$07$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.06.15.06.24.926359@dougfort.com>

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 17:02:43 +0200, Peter Otten wrote:

> Doug Fort wrote:
> 
>> Since I installed 2.4a2 I've been getting a warning from pychecker: Using
>> is not None, may not always work'. I thought 'is not None' was the right
>> thing to do. I've had problems with 'if not x:', because some objects
>> return False in this context.
>  
> This is harmless. Starting with 2.4a2 None is a constant:

Thanks, that it.

> 
> Python 2.3.3 (#1, Jan  3 2004, 13:57:08)
> [GCC 3.2] on linux2
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> import dis
>>>> def f():
> ...     if x is None: pass
> ...
>>>> dis.dis(f)
>   2           0 LOAD_GLOBAL              0 (x)
>               3 LOAD_GLOBAL              1 (None)
>               6 COMPARE_OP               8 (is)
>               9 JUMP_IF_FALSE            4 (to 16)
>              12 POP_TOP
>              13 JUMP_FORWARD             1 (to 17)
>         >>   16 POP_TOP
>         >>   17 LOAD_CONST               0 (None)
>              20 RETURN_VALUE
>>>>
> 
> Python 2.4a2 (#1, Aug  6 2004, 16:38:38)
> [GCC 3.2] on linux2
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
> [python 2.4a2]
>>>> import dis
>>>> def f():
> ...     if x is None: pass
> ...
>>>> dis.dis(f)
>   2           0 LOAD_GLOBAL              0 (x)
>               3 LOAD_CONST               0 (None)
>               6 COMPARE_OP               8 (is)
>               9 JUMP_IF_FALSE            4 (to 16)
>              12 POP_TOP
>              13 JUMP_FORWARD             1 (to 17)
>         >>   16 POP_TOP
>         >>   17 LOAD_CONST               0 (None)
>              20 RETURN_VALUE
> 
> 
> When PyChecker sees the constant it supposes you are doing something like
> 
> if x is "some string": pass
> 
> which always had the LOAD_CONST op-code and is indeed dangerous. PyChecker
> needs to be fixed to special-case None for 2.4.
> 
> Peter

-- 
Doug Fort, Consulting Programmer
http://www.dougfort.com



From export at hope.cz  Mon Aug 23 16:16:15 2004
From: export at hope.cz (Lad)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 13:16:15 -0700
Subject: Py2Exe  and Threading
Message-ID: <81a41dd.0408231216.6f919ff4@posting.google.com>

Does anyone use Py2exe for a script that uses threading modul.
In have a main thread and another in which I use smtplib to send email
while the main thread is running.
Under Python it works well but after compilation into exe it hangs(
freezes) in the thread where I send email with smtplib.
Lad


From bjg at network-theory.co.uk  Wed Aug 25 06:35:50 2004
From: bjg at network-theory.co.uk (Brian Gough)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 11:35:50 +0100
Subject: Shell used by os.system
References: <tyfllg3pnqk.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
Message-ID: <87vff7v721.fsf@network-theory.co.uk>

Jacek Generowicz <jacek.generowicz at cern.ch> writes:

> Is there a way of specifying the shell in which os.system commands are
> executed[1]? Is there a way of specifying what startup scripts should
> be read?

It uses the underlying system() function, and that calls /bin/sh -c ... 
on Unix systems.

-- 
Brian Gough

Network Theory Ltd,
Publishing the Python Manuals --- http://www.network-theory.co.uk/python/


From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz  Thu Aug 19 22:40:23 2004
From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:40:23 +1200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2ol6kpFc24nrU1@uni-berlin.de>

My vote: C1 D1 E1

-- 
Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept,
University of Canterbury,	
Christchurch, New Zealand
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg



From bingham at cenix-bioscience.com  Thu Aug  5 07:35:19 2004
From: bingham at cenix-bioscience.com (Aaron Bingham)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 13:35:19 +0200
Subject: Barcode Layout
In-Reply-To: <m2ekmmakqk.fsf@mother.paradise.lost>
References: <4110CA81.6060706@cenix-bioscience.com>
	<m2ekmmakqk.fsf@mother.paradise.lost>
Message-ID: <41121B77.8030405@cenix-bioscience.com>

John Hunter wrote:

>>>>>>"Aaron" == Aaron Bingham <bingham at cenix-bioscience.com> writes:
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>
>    Aaron> I've been looking at Piddle
>    Aaron> (http://piddle.sourceforge.net/) and it appears we could
>    Aaron> write a backend to support our barcode printer with extra
>    Aaron> methods for higher-level entities, but I'm reluctant
>    Aaron> committing to apparent abandonware. Does anyone have
>    Aaron> experience doing similar things with Piddle?  Are there any
>    Aaron> plans to maintain/enhance/replace Piddle?  Are there other
>    Aaron> packages I should look at?
>
>I am the author of matplotlib - a 2D plotting library for python.
>Like piddle, it is organized around various backends.  It is a very
>active project, with a number of developers who make regular
>contributions in addition to myself.  We have PS/EPS, SVG, wxpython,
>gtk, tkinter, agg (pngs) and more.  It is fairly easy to write a new
>backend if you need to for your barcode printer (4 backends are user
>contributed).
>  
>

Hi John,

Thanks for the pointer.  As it happens, I was already looking at matlibplot.

One thing about piddle that's a good fit for our needs is that we can 
add methods to the canvases e.g. drawBarcode() just by adding that 
method to our backends.  Is there any easy way to add such high-level 
drawing commands in matlibplot that are passed down to the backend level?

Thanks,

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Bingham
Application Developer
Cenix BioScience GmbH
--------------------------------------------------------------------



From nicksjacobson at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 11:50:47 2004
From: nicksjacobson at yahoo.com (Nick Jacobson)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 08:50:47 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<10ia1a9jm9tkuca@corp.supernews.com>
	<dpWdnT7p6KbzlbjcRVn-jw@powergate.ca>
	<84GdneSa3r-TR7jcRVn-tw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <f8097096.0408200750.414e2de1@posting.google.com>

> I'd like to change my vote to J2 J2 J2.
> 
> -Peter

I also vote J2 J2 J2.

--Nick


From t-meyer at ihug.co.nz  Mon Aug  9 20:50:31 2004
From: t-meyer at ihug.co.nz (Tony Meyer)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:50:31 +1200
Subject: Popular Python projects with lots of pure Python code
In-Reply-To: <ECBA357DDED63B4995F5C1F5CBE5B1E8841FB9@its-xchg4.massey.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <ECBA357DDED63B4995F5C1F5CBE5B1E86C36B3@its-xchg4.massey.ac.nz>

> So I am trying to come up with a list of projects I can use to get my 
> stats from.  the stdlib is a no-brainer.  Also plan to use Docutils. 
> But beyond those most of the big Python projects I can think 
> of have a ton of C code which is of no use to me.  I don't need to be 
> able to run it, just going to be compiling to .py files.
> 
> Any suggestions?

How big is 'big'?  The 1.0 SpamBayes release is pure Python; the .py files
have 42,495 \n characters, so about that many lines.  This includes comments
and the like, of course.  The source in CVS HEAD is probably a little bit
larger, although it also includes one C file.

Using the same na?ve line counting method, twisted has something like
320,000 lines of Python.  There's some C, but you can run a fair chunk of
twisted without it (at least last time I tried), so it's non-essential.

=Tony Meyer



From beliavsky at 127.0.0.1  Mon Aug 16 19:25:37 2004
From: beliavsky at 127.0.0.1 (beliavsky@aol.com)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 18:25:37 -0500
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<RGwTc.37687$js3.13758840@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<m34qn2n2du.fsf@g2ctech.com>
Message-ID: <41214271_1@127.0.0.1>


Jorge Godoy <godoy at ieee.org> wrote:

>Just an attempt and trying to keep it like your code. 

Thanks. My code did not correctly illustrate breaking out of more than one
level of loop. How would the following code be translated to Python?
It is silly of course, but real-world situations where you want to exit a
nested loop are not that rare.

program xnest_loop
! illustrate breaking a nested loop
integer :: i,j,k,n
n = 4
ido: do i=1,n
   jdo: do j=1,n
      if (i+j > n) exit ido
      do k=1,n
         if (i+j-k < 0) exit jdo
         print*,i,j,k
      end do
   end do jdo
end do ido
end program xnest_loop

output:
 1 1 1
 1 1 2
 2 1 1
 2 1 2
 2 1 3
 3 1 1
 3 1 2
 3 1 3
 3 1 4




----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---


From Kevin.Smith at sas.com  Wed Aug 18 09:01:06 2004
From: Kevin.Smith at sas.com (Kevin Smith)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 13:01:06 GMT
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
References: <20040817181725194-0400@braeburn.themorgue.org>	<mailman.1829.1092785390.5135.python-list@python.org><65adnQrUKILiC7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1834.1092791633.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20040818090138220-0400@braeburn.themorgue.org>

In <mailman.1834.1092791633.5135.python-list at python.org> Paul Morrow  
wrote:
> Peter Hansen wrote:
> > Questions (for Kevin):
> 
> 1. Would
> 
>        def deco1 foo(a, b, c): pass
> 
>     be the same as (just syntactic sugar for)
> 
>        def foo(a, b, c): pass
>        foo = deco1(foo)
> 
>     or would it mean something else?

Sorry, I guess I should have put the equivalent current Python code in 
my first post.  The example above is exactly what I meant.

 
> 2. Would
> 
>        def deco1 deco2 foo(a, b, c): pass
> 
>     be the same as
> 
>        def foo(a, b, c): pass
>        foo = deco1(deco2(foo))
> 
>     or
> 
>        def foo(a, b, c): pass
>        foo = deco2(deco1(foo))

I would choose the first option since it's easier to transform the 
string "deco1 deco2 foo" to "deco1(deco2(foo))" while I'm reading it (i.
e. it fits my head :) ).


> 3. Would there be any restrictions on what a decorator could *do* to 
> the  method it was passed?  e.g. Could it change:
>
>    * the method's name (which could of course affect the method's
>      visibility: public|private|semi-private)?

Nope, beginners wouldn't understand it immediately.  That's just too 
magical.

>    * whether the method was a static, class, or instance method?

Yes. 

>    * the method's signature (formal parameter names, parameter order,
>      defaults values)?

I guess, in theory, it could since the object returned by the 
"decorator" (I really hate that term) could return a completely 
different object, but I wouldn't suggest it.

-- 
Kevin Smith
Kevin.Smith at sas.com


From michele.simionato at gmail.com  Sat Aug  7 01:25:14 2004
From: michele.simionato at gmail.com (Michele Simionato)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 22:25:14 -0700
Subject: elements of decorator syntax suggestions
References: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1298.1091815362.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4edc17eb.0408062125.231f7bef@posting.google.com>

Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1298.1091815362.5135.python-list at python.org>...

> This is the biggy, it seems. Current (as of a couple of hours ago) 
> discussions on python-dev are discussing other alternatives instead
> of @, that will hopefully make it easier for IPython or Leo to cope 
> for now (but note that in the future, some other use for @ might be
> found, so anyone relying on it at the moment might want to think 
> about that). One current suggestion is to use the | character, instead.
> 

What about "-" ?


- syncronized
- classmethod
def f(cls, *args):
   pass


Any punctuation already used in current Python
would go for me (., :, -, +, *, /, |, \, ^, etc. etc.) !



               Michele Simionato


From http  Mon Aug 23 17:16:31 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 14:16:31 -0700
Subject: Why are strings immutable?
References: <chzVc.288437$a24.71659@attbi_s03>
	<ibednRPmoMofVbvcRVn-oA@powergate.ca>
	<O%rWc.171256$8_6.61890@attbi_s04>
	<DbqdnXN8NqpMxrfcRVn-pw@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <7xd61h368g.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

"Larry Bates" <lbates at swamisoft.com> writes:
> Think about it.  Since strings occupy a fixed
> number of bytes in memory, a mutable string would
> just be a linked list of strings.

Eh?  It would be treated just like Python currently treats lists.

In fact, array('B') does just about exactly what Brent is asking for.


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 17:22:36 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:22:36 -0400
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.16.18.23.00.487305@hotmail.com>
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1637.1092428855.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<30260531.0408131853.18ec2446@posting.google.com>
	<LIqdnd7Jz9Mspr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<412040f8$0$8087$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<AuWdnUL93se81L3cRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
	<pan.2004.08.16.18.23.00.487305@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <COOdnQNAt_YAuLzcRVn-hg@powergate.ca>

Paramjit Oberoi wrote:

>>>It seems to me that you're asking for a rational explanation
>>>for an emotional response.  It's like asking somebody "*why*
>>>don't you like pickled beets?" The answer you get is "I just
>>>don't." 
>>
>>Hmm... not for me.  The answer would be "because they
>>taste like dirt", or "I hate purple", or "anything pickled
>>sucks".  "I just don't" looks a lot like a cop-out.  If
> 
> That's what you would say, but who knows whether that answer would be
> correct?  It could be that you are simply not comfortable with answers
> like "I just don't" which go beyond logic, and thus your brain
> manufactures reasonable logical reasons when needed.  "I don't know" may
> actually be a more honest response than whatever logical response is
> offered.

If this had much to do with Python at this point, I might respond
that it's easy to verify whether such a logical answer is in fact
correct.  For example, serve up some pickled beets that don't taste
like dirt, or die them yellow.  If I like them, then it is highly
likely that I was in fact correct about my guess/logical answer...

But really, is there much point in a meta-discussion about
psychology, emotions, and the ways our brains trick ourselves?
Or are you just looking for an argument? :-)

-Peter


From http  Sat Aug 28 05:47:37 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 02:47:37 -0700
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xzn4gwgea.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7a1o.1a5d2q410jsn2kN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xisb4xnh5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7c1a.tfdm14p3hclcN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xd61benm9.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj82n3.1ylkr3nierngmN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgpj1l$i0f$06$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <7xd61b8uh2.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Benjamin Niemann <pink at odahoda.de> writes:
> import mymodule
> verify_module(mymodule)

This is no good.  The import runs any code in the module, so the sig
has to verify BEFORE the module loads.

> Another question is, where to place (require|verify)_signature() (that
> could also take a CA key (or list of) as optional argument to only
> allow modules signed by this CA). It must not be imported from an
> untrusted module.

Correct, that's the messy infrastructure I mentioned.  My basic idea is
"do whatever Java does".


From dale at riverhall.NOSPAM.co.uk  Fri Aug 27 05:20:18 2004
From: dale at riverhall.NOSPAM.co.uk (Dale Strickland-Clak)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 09:20:18 GMT
Subject: Fun transformation problem
References: <pan.2004.08.26.13.24.26.521173@riverhall_nospam_.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Xns955268B4765A7daleriverhallsystems@192.168.8.150>

Thanks to everyone for your replies. Very interesting.

It is not too embarrasing to admit that these were better than we'd come 
up with.

My colleague will be getting to grips with a newsreader in the near future 
and may be along later to express his own gratitude. 

-- 
Dale Strickland-Clark
Riverhall Systems Ltd, www.riverhall.co.uk


From godoy at ieee.org  Sun Aug 29 17:44:49 2004
From: godoy at ieee.org (Jorge Godoy)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 18:44:49 -0300
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<1LMXc.67190$UTP.37420@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj7a9r.g7ec5a1g89rj0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<m3wtzk4562.fsf@g2ctech.com>
	<just-18D650.10163828082004@news1.news.xs4all.nl>
	<m3sma5zqx0.fsf@g2ctech.com>
	<just-BA4B64.22210729082004@news1.news.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <m3oektzkj2.fsf@g2ctech.com>

Just <just at xs4all.nl> writes:

> But since .pyc's are always generated in the same directory as the .py 
> files, where else would you expect them to be generated?

At the directory where the zip archive is stored.

-- 
Godoy.     <godoy at ieee.org>


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Sun Aug 29 11:15:37 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 08:15:37 -0700
Subject: Announcing PyCs, a new Python-like language on .Net
References: <mailman.2572.1093751093.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1093788608.645541@news.commspeed.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408291606250.2571-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <1093793065.258215@news.commspeed.net>


"Peter Kleiweg" <in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0408291606250.2571-100000 at kleigh.nl...
> Tom B. schreef:
>
> >
> > "Mark Hahn" <mark at prothon.org> wrote in message
> > news:mailman.2572.1093751093.5135.python-list at python.org...
>
> > > Please join the PyCs team.  The only effort involved is particpating
in a
> > > low-traffic, high-content, mailing list.  You will be able to
influence
> > the
> > > design of the latest and greatest dynamic language.
> > >
> > > -- Mark Hahn, http://pycs.org
> > >
> >
> > Python already does all the things that M*soft has tacked on in a kludgy
> > way, in a beautiful pythonic way. I have been using windows based
machines
> > for a long time and in the language department (as well as others)
M*soft
> > has been superceded by the open source community.
>
> Is there a real danger that MS will make its own version of
> Python, pushing it into the market, and we end up with a
> dominant version that only works with MS software?
>
> -- 
> Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
> info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html
>
> The Halloween Documents: http://www.opensource.org/halloween/
>
What M*soft should do is build libraries like the Speech Development Kit and
Direct X into open source modules for Python. This way they are not trying
to destroy open source but to join with it.

Tom




From fumanchu at amor.org  Fri Aug 20 18:31:48 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:31:48 -0700
Subject: Decorator keyword options - brainstorming
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E18@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Paul McGuire:
> Some other ideas:

I still secretly favor "sorcerize". :)


FuManChu


From heikowu at ceosg.de  Tue Aug 10 09:58:21 2004
From: heikowu at ceosg.de (Heiko Wundram)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:58:21 +0200
Subject: pro python paper
In-Reply-To: <3064b51d.0408100549.213dad5@posting.google.com>
References: <305aa162.0408091905.5bce8f9a@posting.google.com>
	<3064b51d.0408100549.213dad5@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <200408101558.21907.heikowu@ceosg.de>

Am Dienstag, 10. August 2004 15:49 schrieb beliavsky at aol.com:
> [snip]
> pretends that the main alternative to Python is Assembly, or some
> other
> "very low-level language". Have the authors not heard of C++ (with the
> Standard Template Library) or Fortran 95 (with multidimensional arrays
> and associated intrinsic functions)?

You won't call C++ or Fortran 95 high-level languages, will you? ;) For me, 
the border between low-level programming and high-level programming lies 
where memory management becomes automatic.

Heiko.


From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz  Wed Aug 18 23:14:33 2004
From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:14:33 +1200
Subject: Best programming language
In-Reply-To: <b74e43f1.0408162046.551fe4a3@posting.google.com>
References: <mailman.1718.1092639914.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<5155aad2.0408161008.40c57262@posting.google.com>
	<b74e43f1.0408162046.551fe4a3@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <2oik8pFaqm1qU1@uni-berlin.de>

Ravi Teja Bhupatiraju wrote:
> Just type programming and Python is second. First is C.

 From which the conclusion is obvious: While C can
be used for programming, it doesn't deserve to
be called a language. :-)

-- 
Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept,
University of Canterbury,	
Christchurch, New Zealand
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg



From dan.greenblatt at gmail.com  Tue Aug 10 20:33:42 2004
From: dan.greenblatt at gmail.com (Dan Greenblatt)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 17:33:42 -0700
Subject: Programmatically posting tkinter menus
Message-ID: <7021e822.0408101633.35ace3d@posting.google.com>

I know this can be done for context menus with the 'post' command....

What I'm trying to do, though, is programmatically post non-contextual
menus (i.e. menus that exist on a horizontal menu bar at the top of my
application window) in the correct place.

So if I have five different menus (i guess these are menubuttons?)
placed horizontally on my menu bar, and the third one is 'Actions',
what is the best way to determine the x and y coordinates of these
menu items, so that i can supply these coordinates to the post command
and make the Actions menu  pop up in the same place as if the user
selected the 'Actions' menubutton from the menu bar???

I'm sure there's some Tkinter trickery involved, I just don't know how
to get location information for these individual menubuttons as
opposed to the containing menu as a whole.

Thanks in advance,
Dan


From gregor.jan at NOSPAMquick.cz  Wed Aug 11 06:26:06 2004
From: gregor.jan at NOSPAMquick.cz (Jan Gregor)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:26:06 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: jython and java exceptions
References: <slrnch2dqk.1h3.gregor.jan@ins1.opera.com>
	<g74Rc.24553$Z14.7458@news.indigo.ie>
Message-ID: <cfcs7u$1ajq$1@ns.felk.cvut.cz>

Hello
>
I tried it again with SQLException only but my main loop ends with
uncatched com.sybase.jdbc2.jdbc.SybSQLException.
>
This is extract from my code, exception is thrown by self.db.executeSql(iline),


   def run (self):
       while (1):
           gr_mode= 0
           iline= Readline.readline(":", 0)
           if iline==None:
               continue
           iline= strip(iline)
           if iline=='\q':
               try:
                   Readline.writeHistoryFile(self.rl_history.getName())
               except:
                   print ("Error writing history file!")
               System.exit(0)
               break
           if iline=='\gr':
               continue
>
           Readline.addToHistory(iline)
>
           if re.match(r'^\+ ', iline):
               gr_mode= 1
               iline= strip(iline[2:])
>
           try:
               type, result= self.db.executeSql(iline)
               if result==None:
                   continue
               if type=='resultSet':
                   self.process(result)
               elif type=='table':
                   if gr_mode:
                       wnd = swingWnd.SimpleSwing(result.to_html())
                       wnd.size= (600,600)
                       wnd.setVisible(1)
                   else:
                       self._print_table(result)
               elif type=='viewSource' or type=='procSource':
                   self.println(result)                      
               elif type=='tableDesc':
                   self._print_table(result)
               elif type=='error':
                   self.println(result)
           # except (SQLException, PSQLException, SybSQLException), e:
           except java.sql.SQLException, e:
               self.println(e.getMessage())
#            except:
#                pass

Jan


From olli at haluter.fromme.com  Tue Aug 24 09:07:19 2004
From: olli at haluter.fromme.com (Oliver Fromme)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 13:07:19 GMT
Subject: "Socket" files?
References: <1093035812.83612@jubilee.esoterica.pt>
	<mailman.2080.1093039543.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4126824a$0$566$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>
	<1093050493.502706@jubilee.esoterica.pt>
	<1093302968.204485@iceman.esoterica.pt>
Message-ID: <2p0ss7Ffh1bdU2@uni-berlin.de>

Paulo da Silva <psXdaXsilva at esotericax.ptx> wrote:
 > Irmen de Jong wrote:
 > > from socket import *
 > > sock=socket(AF_UNIX,SOCK_STREAM)
 > > sock.bind("/tmp/mysocket")
 > [...]
 > 
 > OK. It works! I'll use mkfifo for "fifo" type and this for
 > "socket" type.
 > BTW, don't I need to close "sock.close()"? I don't want to
 > do anything with the socket except keeping it on disk.

Uhm, are you sure you know what you're doing?  UNIX domain
sockets work very similar to Internet domain sockets, i.e.
they disappear when they're closed (or when your program
exits, in which case everything is closed implicitly).

Why exactly do you want to create one and keep it on disk
without doing anything with it?  That doesn't seem make any
sense at all.

Best regards
   Oliver

-- 
Oliver Fromme, Konrad-Celtis-Str. 72, 81369 Munich, Germany

``All that we see or seem is just a dream within a dream.''
(E. A. Poe)


From del at mjclift.freeserve.co.uk  Fri Aug 13 02:57:13 2004
From: del at mjclift.freeserve.co.uk (Calvin79)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 02:57:13 -0400
Subject: while and if
References: <e0197c1847cb38af22dceeb8aaa6e679@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>	<mailman.1581.1092372820.5135.python-list@python.org>	<mailman.1582.1092375949.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<mailman.1585.1092379209.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <adcc0a90f249204c69cc325c3ee53290@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>

Satchit,

You've been great, saved me a lot of time and probably stopped me going
bald as I won't be scratching my head half as much trying to get to grips
with all this.

Once again thankyou!

Calvin



From roy at panix.com  Sun Aug  8 09:32:21 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 09:32:21 -0400
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar,
	but for what exactly? (decorator libraries).
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
	<mailman.1352.1091953503.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-0D45FB.09322108082004@reader1.panix.com>

Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
> The "Python of 1.5.2 simplicitly" is long, long gone. I don't agree that
> newer Python's are somehow worse because new things have been
> added. A short list:
> 
>   new style classes
>   foo(*arg, **kwarg)
>   iterators
>   generators 
>   list comprehensions

Perhaps I'm just a luddite, but I don't actually use most of those 
features.  I have started playing around with iterators/generators, and 
find them very cool.

The single biggest improvement I see in the language since 1.5.2 is 
string methods!  After that, maybe augmented assignments (or whatever 
you call them; the ability to write "x += 1").

Most of the big improvements I've seen are in the library.  When did 
unitest get added?  I can't live without unittest.  I like the logging 
module, even if I think it's about twice as complicated as it should be.

A lot of my own personal growth in how I use the language is discovering 
modules which, while not new to the language, are new to me because I'd 
never noticed them before.

Speaking of libraries, Dan Bishop posted some interesting example of 
@memoize and @printreturns utility wrappers.  This leads me to think 
that a good way to leverage the idea of decorators would be a module of 
common utility functions which could be used as decorators by anybody.
I'll call the module martha (since it supplies things used for 
decorating).  Does the proposed mechanism support something like (to use 
one of Dan's exmaples, written with two different syntaxen):

import martha

@martha.memoize
def fibonacci(n):
   if n in (0, 1):
      return n
   return fibonacci(n - 1) + fibonacci(n - 2)

def fibonacci(n):
   @martha.memoize
   if n in (0, 1):
      return n
   return fibonacci(n - 1) + fibonacci(n - 2)

Some of these things might even be usefully re-written in C for improved 
performance.

I'm even wondering if somehow decorators could be used for i18n?  The 
obvious problem there, is print is a statement not a function, and you 
can't decorate statements (or can you???).


From abrady at prontomail.com  Tue Aug 24 19:11:57 2004
From: abrady at prontomail.com (Art)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 16:11:57 -0700
Subject: python line editor
Message-ID: <6c283161.0408241511.625ea118@posting.google.com>

Hello all,

this is possibly a not well-formed question, but are there any python
modules out there to do vi/ex/ed style script editing?

i.e. the kind where you pass the commands thru stdin. ie:
/sFoo
:i"Bar"
:wq

or something like that.

I'm porting some software right now so I have thousands of files to do
replaces on. I want to do everything in Python, but I find myself
writing a bunch of functions that look like this:
                    for line in fileinput.input( os.path.join( dir,
file ), inplace=1, backup="~"):
                        m = xbrex.match( line )
                        if m:
                            resdef = ""
                            #is this an ndef?
                            if m.group(1):
                                resdef = "#if !defined(_XBOX) &&
!defined(_PS2)"
                            else:
                                resdef = "#if defined(_XBOX) ||
defined(_PS2)"
                            #fixup the line
                            line = line.replace(m.group(0), resdef)
                            
                        # write the line
                        sys.stdout.write(line)

Basically my problem is that I have to operate on files on a line by
line basis using this method. This case works fine, but there are
cases where I would like multi-line changes, basically mini-editor
support.

I know that this could be done with code i.e. if( startFound ): ...,
but I don't want to have to track a bunch of flags. . .

I know I could slurp the whole file into a string, but that still
doesn't have the simplicity of the ed syntax.

Since I'm basically asking for editor functionality, an alternative
would be to do this with ed and scripts, or elisp, but I'd like to try
python for this first.

Any suggestions? 

Best regards,
Aaron


From nickjacobson at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 16:00:52 2004
From: nickjacobson at gmail.com (Nick Jacobson)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 13:00:52 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>	<2ojheuFb9j2eU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<mailman.1950.1092916271.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4d958f27.0408191200.5d9aa8ce@posting.google.com>

Nicolas ?vrard <nicoe at no-log.org> wrote in message news:<mailman.1950.1092916271.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> * Oliver Fromme  [13:32 19/08/04 CEST]: 
> >Lucas Raab <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> > > Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> > > about....
> >
> >I'm 00100001b (or 021h ... or if you prefer decimal, it's
> >33 years).  Although I feel more like 27, which is the age
> >of my GF.  :-)
> 
> Well if everybody feels like the age of his GF/BF, I'm 75 although I'm
> only 27.

I don't mean to pry, but you're a 27 year-old dating a 75 year-old? 
Like a "Harold and Maud" type deal?


From maxm at mxm.dk  Tue Aug 31 06:56:38 2004
From: maxm at mxm.dk (Max M)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 12:56:38 +0200
Subject: File System
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2656.1093944977.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <10j7r3cflo61680@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.2656.1093944977.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <41345966.3020103@mxm.dk>

Aaron Bingham wrote:
> Hello Maboroshi,
> 
> You are not the first to think that there might be an alternative to the 
> filesystem.  Here are a few links to sites for projects where 
> filesystems have been rethought or eliminated in very different ways.  
> Most of this is unfortunately vaporware.  This is by no means a complete 

No, you forgot www.zope.org

Especially Zope 3

This could easily be seen as a model for an object oriented filesystem.


regards Max M


From user at domain.invalid  Thu Aug 19 03:01:41 2004
From: user at domain.invalid (Robbie)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:01:41 +1000
Subject: Python and Apache
Message-ID: <cg1j1a$2ps7$1@otis.netspace.net.au>

Ok I've just about given up with mod_python. ATM It apache can't even 
FIND the files even though they're in a directory listing and all.
What other ways can you use python with apache? If there is no other way 
  I might try to solve the mod_python problem... hmmm


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 29 20:28:34 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 20:28:34 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <eppstein-55AD8F.13583829082004@news.service.uci.edu>
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>	<e69d3ed2040
	<eppstein-55AD8F.13583829082004@news.service.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <cgtsbi$7en$2@sea.gmane.org>

David Eppstein wrote:

> 
> So we really need to return to the FORTRAN days where variables have 
> different semantics depending on their first character?

A little of that is a good thing (IMO).  The alternative is that we 
explicitly declare each variable's semantics, which makes for a much 
more wordy language.



> Anyway, regardless of whether it's a local variable or an attribute, if 
> it's in the function body I expect it to be executed at call time not 
> def time.
> 

I believe that we should think of assignments to __xxx__ attributes as 
not being part of the function's body, but instead part of its 
declaration, just as we do with its docstring.

    def circum(diameter):
        """This describe's foo."""
        __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'
        __version__ = '0.1'
        __features__ = synchronized, memoized
        # Everything above here is declaration.
        # Everything below here is in the body.
        pi = 3.14
        return pi * diameter



Paul



From eldiener at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 10 22:40:07 2004
From: eldiener at earthlink.net (Edward Diener)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 02:40:07 GMT
Subject: Static method object not callable
References: <CceSc.10654$nx2.3040@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<mailman.1476.1092189482.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bGfSc.10747$nx2.363@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>

Paul Morrow wrote:
> Edward Diener wrote:
>> This simple code example gives me the message, "TypeError:
>> 'staticmethod' object is not callable".
>>
>> class X(object):
>>   def Y(x):
>>     print x
>>   Y = staticmethod(Y)
>>   ad = { 1 : Y }
>>   def Z(self):
>>     self.ad[1](3)
>> x = X()
>> x.Z()
>> print "Done."
>>
>> I know there must be a way to have a class attribute reference a
>> static method, and then call that static method through the
>> reference, so if anyone can correct this it would be appreciated.
>>
>>
>>
>
> Here are two alternatives. snip...

Neither alternative is satisfactory. Surely there must be some means of
directly specifying a reference to a static method in a class attribute in
Python, and calling it from an instance method through the class attribute.




From torsten.marek at student.uni-tuebingen.de  Fri Aug  6 13:45:39 2004
From: torsten.marek at student.uni-tuebingen.de (Torsten Marek)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 19:45:39 +0200
Subject: PyQT tutorial
In-Reply-To: <410f8d35$0$31408$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
References: <410f8d35$0$31408$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <cf0g44$517$1@newsserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de>

Olivier Thiery schrieb:
> Hello,
> 
> Do you know any good  and fairly complete tutorial about PyQT, Eric and
> QtDesigner ?
> 
> Thank you,

Have a look at the PyQt wiki, there are links on plenty of tutorials

http://www.diotavelli.net/PyQtWiki

greetings

Torsten


From djc at object-craft.com.au  Wed Aug  4 02:29:29 2004
From: djc at object-craft.com.au (Dave Cole)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:29:29 +1000
Subject: checking whether a var is empty or not
In-Reply-To: <slrnch0vat.rhb.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
References: <cec880$8ct$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu> <opsbxubr1g1v4ijd@musicbox>
	<slrnch0vat.rhb.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
Message-ID: <ap%Pc.22247$%r.245331@nasal.pacific.net.au>

Dave Benjamin wrote:
> In article <opsbxubr1g1v4ijd at musicbox>, Pierre-Fr?d?ric Caillaud wrote:
> 
>>	This smells like PHP to me...
>>
>>if var is not None:
>>	if var has not been assigned, it raises an exception.
>>	if var has been assigned, it contains a value which can be None or  
>>someting else.
>>
>>	This is different from PHP where you can't know if a variable exists or  
>>not, because a non-existent variable will contain null if you check it,  
>>and putting null in a variable is like deleting it, but noone knows  
>>because there's no way of checking if a variable really exists, etc.
> 
> 
> No, in PHP, you can find out if a variable exists using isset(). And trying
> to dereference an uninitialized variable will generate a warning if you have
> error reporting turned up all the way (error_reporting(E_ALL)).

 >>> def isset(var):
...     return var in globals()
...
 >>> print isset('var')
0
 >>> var = 43
 >>> print isset('var')
1

Not that I can see any good use for this :-).

- Dave

-- 
http://www.object-craft.com.au


From gerritvd at decillion.net  Thu Aug 19 07:03:08 2004
From: gerritvd at decillion.net (Gerrit van Dyk)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:03:08 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <mailman.1943.1092910592.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <reqdnXGacLQ0FbncRVn-gw@is.co.za>

I am 39 and has been programming fulltime in python for the last 6 years.
Prior to that I have been programming in Objective-C,C++ and C for a good
12 years.

Python rocks, and I wouldn't change it for anything else, except when
writing extensions in C

Gerrit


From SBrunning at trisystems.co.uk  Fri Aug 20 06:56:25 2004
From: SBrunning at trisystems.co.uk (SBrunning at trisystems.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:56:25 +0100
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
Message-ID: <31575A892FF6D1118F5800600846864D01AE29D1@intrepid>

J2 J2 J2

I like that one. ;-)

Cheers,
Simon B.
simon at brunningonline.net
http://www.brunningonline.net/simon/blog/ 




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accept liability for statements made which are clearly the senders own.


From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 21 13:58:39 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:58:39 -0500
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <qgfjv1-173.ln1@suse.zobbo.org>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl> <ZFoVc.360$MR2.1503@news1.mts.net>
	<qgfjv1-173.ln1@suse.zobbo.org>
Message-ID: <E2MVc.984$MR2.3626@news1.mts.net>

@Ian J Cottee:

Perhaps you should read some of my earlier posts.


From sandysj at juno.com  Fri Aug 20 16:02:35 2004
From: sandysj at juno.com (Jeff Sandys)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:02:35 GMT
Subject: Install Python on win32 without modifying registry
References: <2260b3c5.0408200600.4c0550c4@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <412658DB.E23E5F25@juno.com>

Install Python-2.3 on a computer that you have registry permissions, 
like your home computer, copy everything in the Python23 directory 
onto a CDROM, also search for python23.dll and copy it to the CDROM.
You will be able to run Python off of the CDROM.  Copy the CDROM 
onto the restricted computer and you can run Python on it without 
using the registry.

I think that Pythonwin needs to register to activate the COM 
interface, I could be wrong, try copying the PythonCOM23.dll and 
PyWinTypes23.dll and see if it works.

SeaPIG members have worked on a Python distribution with a 
webserver that will run off of a USB zipdrive, on any Windows, 
Linux and Mac computer.

Thanks,
Jeff Sandys

QyRoN wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> I need to install python-2.3 on my computer. The problem is that
> python and many programs written in python (pythonwin for example) use
> registry for storing parameters on python installation. Is there a way
> to install without modifying the registry?


From megalomaan at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 26 18:15:26 2004
From: megalomaan at hotmail.com (m0226065)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 00:15:26 +0200
Subject: mySQLdb
Message-ID: <1093558526.705789@seven.kulnet.kuleuven.ac.be>

Ok

so I have a mySQL server
and mySQLdb as an interface (do I us this term correct here?) to this server
from python
now I have a game:
    I want to read a file into the db
    I want other data to be kept in the db from now on

problem:
since I have special things I want to do (like write a dict into a db), do I
have to write a specialized class, derived from mySQLdb, or would that be
dumb? I mean, I guess it would be easier to write some functions that take
care of everything, while I just say "write this dict to that table" or
"write this dict item to that table" and so on.

I know there are things like ZOPE, but I just want to get an understanding
of this...



-- 
____________________________________________________
Johan Potums






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From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Thu Aug 26 21:12:19 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:12:19 +1000
Subject: key storage
Message-ID: <1093569139.412e8a738462b@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!
i am building a web application. for client authentication, i am using
cookies which include the HMAC of the data.
the server also has a public/private key pair for signing and verifying
information.
my question is how should these be stored on the server? encryption is
the best solution, but if i encrypt them with another key, the question is
where does this key get stored?
i am using SunOS. the problem is i dont have access to the webserver. my
web applications consists of a number of python scripts that allow you to
create user models.
Thus there is no application start or end and all state (including keys
used) must be stored in files which are read when a request is made.
if i could actually configure the server (or if i had written my own server
app) i could make it read a set of keys (or a passphrase) from a file
(stored on removable media) at startup and use those. the media itself
could be removed.
But i cant really do that with a whole lot of cgi scripts, can i?
since the webserver is an apache, i think i should look at what features it
offers in such a situation - i was hoping someone would have come across
this problem before and solved it

cheers
--
Ajay Brar,





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From john at grulic.org.ar  Sat Aug 14 06:29:21 2004
From: john at grulic.org.ar (John Lenton)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 07:29:21 -0300
Subject: multiline snippets with triple quotes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408130916110.25668-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
References: <cfgff0$p3o$1@online.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121559220.11006-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1580.1092362912.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408130916110.25668-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <20040814102921.GD12793@grulic.org.ar>

On Fri, Aug 13, 2004 at 09:22:38AM -0400, Christopher T King wrote:
> 
> AFAIK, triple quotes do everything heredocs do (but with a cleaner 
> syntax!); the following produce identical output:
> 
> bash heredocs:
> 
> echo -n <<EOF
> Some text.
>   Woo!
> The end.
> EOF
> 
> Python triple quotes:
> 
> print '''\
> Some text.
>   Woo!
> The end.'''

what about
cat <<-EOF
>	1
>	2
>	3
>	EOF
1
2
3



-- 
John Lenton (john at grulic.org.ar) -- Random fortune:
<JHM> Somehow I have more respect for 14 year old Debian developers than
     14 year old Certified Microsoft Serfs.
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From zanesdad at bellsouth.net  Tue Aug 31 12:47:33 2004
From: zanesdad at bellsouth.net (Jeremy Jones)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 12:47:33 -0400
Subject: convert string to input stream
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.31.16.32.20.258768@barik.net>
References: <pan.2004.08.31.16.32.20.258768@barik.net>
Message-ID: <4134ABA5.5040109@bellsouth.net>

Titus Barik wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I've used Google quite a bit in an attempt to find an answer to this
>question, but have found no leads, possibly because I'm not sure I'm
>wording my question properly. So I thought I'd try here.
>
>Basically I have a function that accepts an input file stream as an
>argument:
>
>	handle = open(SOME_FILE)
>	my_function(handle)
>
>But occasionally, I end up with a string ("Hello world") that I need to
>convert to a stream in order to pass it into this function. Perhaps
>something like:
>
>	fake_handle = convert_to_handle("Hello world!")
>  
>
What you want is StringIO:
http://www.python.org/doc/current/lib/module-StringIO.html
or cStringIO:
http://www.python.org/doc/current/lib/module-cStringIO.html

I'll leave usage between you and the pydocs (unless, of course, you try 
it and have some problems with it).

>so that it appears to this function to be a file handle. I've seen
>functions in other languages that will take strings and convert them to
>streams via IO Memory Buffers and such, but can't seem to find anything in
>Python; or at least I don't know where to look.
>
>One solution that I didn't like was to do the following:
>
>	1. Open a temporary file.
>	2. Write the string to that file.
>	3. Read it back.
>  
>
Yeah - that's a nasty answer.  You don't wanna go there.

>Any suggestions are appreciated.
>
>Regards,
>
>
>  
>



From b.niemann at betternet.de  Wed Aug 25 09:19:29 2004
From: b.niemann at betternet.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:19:29 +0200
Subject: Just a quick one
In-Reply-To: <cgi2qq$rvp$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>
References: <cgi2qq$rvp$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <cgi3ev$g6k$1@online.de>

lists cannot be used as dictionary keys (because lists are mutable, they 
have no invariant hash value -> unhashable), use tuples instead:

nextName = {('Bob','One'):['Rita','Sue'],\
               'Rita':['Mary','Sue',['Bob','One']],\
               'Sue':['Rita','Mary',['Bob','One']],\
               'Mary':['Sue','Rita']}

M. Clift wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Just a quick one. I'm trying to call [Bob','One'] with this, but I keep
> getting 'unhashable'. I've tried various ' " and [ and can't get the thing
> to work. Any offers?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> M
> 
> <code>
> 
> from random import *
> 
> Name_Number = xrange(int(raw_input("Choose number of Names (1-20)? ")))
> 
> state = [None,None]
> 
> nextName = {['Bob','One']:['Rita','Sue'],\
>               'Rita':['Mary','Sue',['Bob','One']],\
>               'Sue':['Rita','Mary',['Bob','One']],\
>               'Mary':['Sue','Rita']}
> 
> Name_List = []
> 
> tmp = choice((['Bob','One'],'Rita','Sue','Mary'))
> 
> for x in Name_Number:
>     print state
>     while tmp in state[0:2]:
>         tmp = choice(nextName[Name_List[-1]])
>     print tmp, ", ",
>     print
>     print "Name ",x+1," is ", tmp
>     Name_List.append(tmp)
>     state[x%2] = tmp
> 
>     print Name_List
> 
> <code>
> 
> 


From jjl at pobox.com  Sun Aug 29 08:26:29 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 29 Aug 2004 13:26:29 +0100
Subject: If the string module is deprecated...
References: <lTcYc.42310$v86.13422@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <87r7pqb05m.fsf@pobox.com>

"Paul McGuire" <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> writes:

> ... what will become of the module-level constants, such as uppercase,
> digits, hexdigits, etc.?  Will they become class-level constants of the str
> class?

I don't see why not.

One design decision I don't understand, though (which doesn't crop up
in the particular cases you list above):

staticmethods can be invoked through a class instance:

>>> class Foo:
...     @staticmethod
...     def bar():
...         print 'bar'
...
>>> f = Foo()
>>> f.bar()
bar
>>>

This is the issue that turned list.sorted() into builtin sorted() in
2.4 -- people would get confused expecting that [3,2,1].sorted() to
return [1,2,3], rather than raise TypeError.

Seems there is some disagreement amongst language desingers on whether
polymorphism is a good thing in static methods.


John


From opengeometry at yahoo.ca  Fri Aug 20 17:08:17 2004
From: opengeometry at yahoo.ca (William Park)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 21:08:17 GMT
Subject: Newbie to XML in Python
References: <cg50qi$52p$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
Message-ID: <2on7i1Fbn7i7U1@uni-berlin.de>

Jens Thiede <jens.news at webgear.co.za> wrote:
> XML in Python doesn't seem easy or intuitive. All I need to do, is to 
> interpret a small piece of XML in which I store data for the contents of 
> an autorun menu. What is the quickest/most effective way to do this?
> 
> What should I use for this; SAX or DOM - and which parser of ether one, 
> or niether (if there is a third option)?
> 
> What are your views,

It depends on your data.

-- 
William Park <opengeometry at yahoo.ca>
Open Geometry Consulting, Toronto, Canada


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug  3 16:23:27 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 16:23:27 -0400
Subject: simple Thread question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408031557360.11453-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
References: <b8001e9f.0408031151.4f617c6@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408031557360.11453-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <fZKdncewKJzcaZLcRVn-qw@powergate.ca>

Christopher T King wrote:

> The Python interpreter isn't too thread-friendly.  Because it's not 
> re-entrant, it has to make use of a Global Interpreter Lock in order to 
> keep internal structures from getting mangled.  ....

Notwithstanding the rest of your answer, Christopher, I have to
say that in my opinion, the Python interpreter is *very*
thread-friendly.  Obviously this just depends on differing
ideas of what it means to be "friendly" to threads, but I find
Python to be the most reliable and easiest to use environment
for multi-threaded applications that I've ever used.  I know
what you meant by this, but if nothing else the criticism doesn't
serve to promote Python very well...

The world would probably be a much better place if most of its
multi-threaded applications were rewritten in Python.

(And it would be better still if some of them were then
re-designed to use Twisted, but that's another story. ;-)

-Peter


From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Fri Aug 20 10:13:36 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:13:36 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2044.1093008551.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<mailman.2044.1093008551.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1IqdnUtRpciSmrvcRVn-vQ@giganews.com>

Paolino wrote:

> d2 d2 j2
> 
> Thanks for the piece of democracy

or more likely the 'illusion' of it.



From asif at go-away-spammer.com  Tue Aug 31 13:49:42 2004
From: asif at go-away-spammer.com (Player)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 18:49:42 +0100
Subject: Beginners question.
References: <ch2c6b$5ap$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <2pjrbnFkpdrvU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <ch2dnl$odg$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>

[edit:snip]

Ok thanks Russell Blau :) I can see it now heh.

M.B -aka- Player




From eltronic at juno.com  Wed Aug 25 20:11:01 2004
From: eltronic at juno.com (eltronic at juno.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 20:11:01 -0400
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
Message-ID: <20040825.201105.-381037.0.eltronic@juno.com>

please count as for the J2 proposal of yesterday.
please list as anon, email withheld.
or better yet email mangled, as this and 
other lists promise to mangle but they never do.
here comes another 100 spams and virus as a result of this post.


H J2 A
H (|deco | deco instead of @deco)
J2 (word: suite where word is decor, using, other)
    include time for objections to any word picked.
    note, many are on vacation or only sporadically
    even read c.l.py and less frequently py-dev.
    a python-announce post woulden't be a bad idea.
A (@deco, @ deco)

H checked in implementation already exists
  that can be modified with minimal effort.
  solves some problems for Leo,
 but long range, since Leo edits multiple languages
 and Java, assembler, forth, perl others' use @
 Leo will continue working somehow.
 by avoiding existing and user added @directives.
 by Leo allowing you to define the @ to something else.
 by @verbatim. 
 any change is going to have consequences.
  not sure about other tools, Ipython, empy.
  learning new behavior for users, all the
  supporting doc amendments, good search for
  prior help tips out the window. in addition
  to the trivial by comparison code changes.

  @@ will interfere with diff listings.
  texi format uses @directives? has anyone checked?
  is it really the position of the BDFL that
  python must use @ at any cost? when | works.
  was surprise a necessary part of the strategy?

  folding editors and code import no worse off
  than how they now handle f = staticmethod(f).
  since they probably don't now alert the user
  there is something special about this def, 
  they needed to be fixed anyway. no doubt 
  all tools will need upgrade whichever. we could 
  single out a few that aren't up to py 2.2 yet.
  that don't differentiate old from new classes.

  | generates syntax error? or would it be unary?
  why is it a problem that | looks like l or 1 
  on some fonts? and might '?' be another alternate char?
  but I will not try to find the answer if its already
  posted, imagine trying to lookup python related 
  pages including ? or @, 
  some searchers commonly ignore punctuation.
  are decorators destined to be forever obscured?
  these are not inconsequential questions!
  in the few weeks since wider public exposure
  dozens of such questions exposed. even the omnipotent
  can't keep them all on the same page at the same time.
  more than a few interested parties just tuned out early on.
  
J2 has tacit community approval and implementation.
 good job on the pep, the wiki, the vote and proposal.
  since vote wasn't secret, probably many just
   decided to minimize bandwidth and held off posting.
   the one lopsided poll, evidence of nothing.
   the correct result somehow emerged.
 favorable words, 
      using, deco, decor, trans, alter,
      declare, combine might already be used as var names.
      implement, may be better left for something else.
      with & as, overloaded, but actually not too bad.

@deco is a syntax that will be tolerated, but,
how can so many negatives be a positive?
presumable we will be able to try/except 
if no def found, I have seen no mention of this.
will there be a specific Exception?

is there unicode or other popular name 
for @ besides NULL or at?

the real shocker in all this is how few dev people
are aware of how @deco affects Leo & IPython.
guess the word is not getting out how much they 
are an improvement on the basic python intrepreter.
oh, You dont realize Leo executes python? much pity.
it is completely scriptable in nearly every way.
but I guess you can cobble something together similar
in emacs or vim, not to put too fine a point on it.

decor:
    staticmethod
def whatever():
    pass
anything more complicated than that I wince.
there are people with a use case who say they 
need it, we all really should get out of the way.
I had occasion to revisit a few methods I
moved out of a class because they didn't need
to be methods. I ran some quick timing tests
and found staticmethod accessed from other 
class members appear to be faster so I made
them staticmethod. I know its heresy to
support a change like this based on speed,
based on timing of toy pared down examples,
but maybe the decorator would be seen as
more directly affecting people if they realize
how they can use the thing. the docs, 
none of the available lit even briefly
touch on this aspect. or maybe I gloss over it.
too few comparing and contrasting examples.
need more like @memoize in a few of the posts.
python is deceptively simple, you can
go a long time with just the basic simple stuff.
another case in point, it took a very long time
to feel comfortable with slices and list 
comprehensions. in spite of 20 years of c.
now, I see their application directly as simple.
take the advice of a few early posters in this 
by far more archive building issue than 308 
and try decorators out to see them in action.
or the also good advice, to make your case, then 
stand back as the creators of Leo and IPy have.

ask me again in 5 minutes I might say
no change is justified. stop the insanity. but,
the case for waiting is a fruitless non argument.

recommend save pep numbers ending in 8
for only the most contentious issues.
is 0332 being saved for y2032 issues?
0338 anyone up for macros? do we get
@deco then ?macro soon after?
do we get |deco or ?deco then @macro
I sense a fork forming in a few minds.
I am amused that $ slipped in as an % 
interpolation replacement under the radar.

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
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From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Tue Aug 10 13:02:50 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:02:50 -0400
Subject: Decorators proposal
In-Reply-To: <cfas0h$olv$1@news1.wdf.sap-ag.de>
References: <19b62f17.0408100741.7f2712ac@posting.google.com>
	<cfas0h$olv$1@news1.wdf.sap-ag.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408101253001.7362-100000@ccc2.wpi.edu>

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, Daniel Dittmar wrote:

> RebelGeekz wrote:
> > Just my humble opinion:
> >
> > def bar(low,high):
> >     meta:
> >         accepts(int,int)
> >         returns(float)
> >     #more code
> 
> +1
> 
> This also allows to set function properties inside of the function
> def handler (match):
>     meta:
>         pattern = re.compile (...)

Ooh, perty!  I especially like the extension of this idea into function
attributes; it looks even cleaner than the .attribute syntax I like.

The only problem I see with this is that Guido seems to want decorators to
be more prominent than the function signature itself, so he probably
certainly won't go for "hiding" then in a doubly-nested block.  (I write
"hiding" in quotes because I'm of the opinion that placing decorators
after a one- or two-line function signature does nothing to obscure the
decorators.)



From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 17 00:19:07 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 00:19:07 -0400
Subject: Flython?
In-Reply-To: <30260531.0408131856.5ef3b0d3@posting.google.com>
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
	<411cbcb1$0$3894$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>
	<W9qdnWhf8u7MI4HcRVn-ow@powergate.ca>
	<30260531.0408131856.5ef3b0d3@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <w_2dnS6SiJGhGrzcRVn-pg@powergate.ca>

simo wrote:

> There's a few libraries for making SVG files in PHP, so there may be
> Python versions too, but if you want ActionScript then I guess you're
> determined to go with Flash instead.....

I just stumbled over the following text in this page 
(http://www.webreference.com/programming/javascript/j_s/column2/)

'''Now some developers might say: "Big deal, who cares about Flash
    animations ?" Well, as it turns out - quite a lot of folks in the
    software business. First, Adobe has thrown in the towel on SVG and
    adopted Flash's .SWF file format for animations as has just about
    every other major player in the graphics, 3D modeling and image
    design fields.
'''

Adobe has thrown in the towel on SVG?!  When did that happen?
I can't find another reference to the news that inspired this
comment.

On another note: comparing Flash and SVG:
     http://www.theopensourcery.com/osrsvgover.htm

-Peter


From drconrad at metaplay.com.au  Mon Aug  9 21:02:42 2004
From: drconrad at metaplay.com.au (Simon Wittber)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 09:02:42 +0800
Subject: {SPAM?} SQL Qeries via XMLRPC
Message-ID: <200408100050.i7A0oprv015248@redpill.digitalventures.com.au>

In a recent project, we came across a problem using the FreeTDS (MS SQL /
Sybase DB API) libraries on a Linux box.

To cut a long story short, we ending up exposing the functions we needed
from a Win32 machine, via XMLRPC, in Python, so that we could run ad-hoc
queries on the SQL Server which was running on that same machine.

Side point: The timeliness at which I was able to achieve this impressed the
boss. Python code is now springing up everywhere :-)

I am now considering implementing persistent connections, authentication,
and perhaps even "stored procedures" in this tiny XMLRPC Server. This would
provide a consistent database interface to all our applications (written in
various languages) and allow us to consider things like load balancing and
query caching. It would also make a move from the proprietary SQL Server to
a Free RDBMS much easier (portable stored procedures, same API etc).

The problem is, I have a tiny little nag in my mind about the use of XMLRPC
(and therefore HTTP) to implement this.

Has anyone done this sort of thing before? 

Are there any problems with this strategy that I have not considered?

Should I be considering the standard python XMLRPC / HTTP / SocketServer
modules for mission critical production systems?

Regards,

Simon Wittber.





From ivoras at __geri.cc.fer.hr  Sat Aug  7 17:17:28 2004
From: ivoras at __geri.cc.fer.hr (Ivan Voras)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 23:17:28 +0200
Subject: psyco out of memory
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1232.1091743195.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <cetpoc$udc$1@bagan.srce.hr> <ceu91j$a5s$1@bagan.srce.hr>
	<mailman.1232.1091743195.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cf3gt8$72a$3@bagan.srce.hr>

Tim Hochberg wrote:

>> (Still, I'm surprised how slow it is. The same "program" in Java takes 
>> about 10sec, and here it's passed 5 minutes and I'm still waiting...)
> 
> 

> 
> That ran in about a minute here. Psyco won't speed up floating point 
> operations near as much as integer ops at present, hence its speed 
> deficit with respect to java.

Yes, it took about minute here too. While it is a ~ 30x speed gain, it 
shows there's still space for improvement :)

-- 
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nath Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't
you understand?


From nzanella at cs.mun.ca  Wed Aug 18 17:42:19 2004
From: nzanella at cs.mun.ca (Neil Zanella)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 14:42:19 -0700
Subject: static class methods and data members
Message-ID: <b68d2f19.0408181247.19b434d2@posting.google.com>

Hello,

I would like to know whether it is possible to define static class methods
and data members in Python (similar to the way it can be done in C++ or Java).
These do not seem to be mentioned in "Learning Python" by Mark Lutz and David
Ascher. It seems like they are a relatively new feature... It seems to me that
any truly OO programming language should support these so I'm sure that Python
is no exception, but how can these be defined/implemented in Python? Currently
I have Python version 2.3 installed on my system.

Thanks,

Neil


From kosh at aesaeion.com  Fri Aug 13 15:45:38 2004
From: kosh at aesaeion.com (kosh)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:45:38 -0600
Subject: Why I love python.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408131530170.4101-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1628.1092425051.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408131530170.4101-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <200408131345.38773.kosh@aesaeion.com>

On Friday 13 August 2004 1:34 pm, Christopher T King wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, kosh wrote:
> > Why is there a need for a stand alone executable? At least on all the
> > unixes whether something is executable is just determined by the
> > executable bit on the file.
>
> Not if you don't have the interpreter installed.
>

So install the runtime. If you want to run the .NET stuff you need to have the 
the .NET CLR or Mono installed. If you want to run java apps you need the jvm 
etc. Overall once a runtime is installed it makes distributing apps a lot 
easier since the actual thing you need to send someone is tiny. Also at least 
on unixes I have not run into a box in about 6 years or so that did not have 
python and perl installed so in practice I have not run into that problem.

> > I can execute a python program just as transparently as one in
> > compiled c, c++,  etc. I really don't see the point of that.
>
> Indeed, you can do that just as easily on Windows, too.  The point of a
> stand-alone executable is not to make running the script easier, but to
> make distribution easier.  Users don't need to install Python to run a
> Python script if it's a stand-alone executable.

Overall it would be better if there was an easy way on windows to get the 
runtime installed since then you can send users far smaller files, smaller 
updates and it makes it easier for people to patch their systems. I have seen 
more then a few cases where a bug like temp file creation was found to be a 
problem in python and in some c code. However the difference is that you can 
update the python runtime and all affected python programs are fixed. The 
same is not true of the c versions. 

One of them I have run into which is a pain is stuff like openssl. When that 
gets updated it seems a whole bunch of programs have to be compiled to work 
with it again. The change is source compatible but for whatever reason the 
bug fix breaks binary compatibility on a number of apps. Just update the 
runtime though for things like python,java, etc and all apps on those 
runtimes just become fixed.


From tdelaney at avaya.com  Sun Aug 15 22:25:59 2004
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy))
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:25:59 +1000
Subject: I am in great need of code to make a dome
Message-ID: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01CF49B6@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

Ali wrote:

> I am in great need of code that will make a dome.
> 
> I would like the inputs to be similar to that of the sphere. ie:
> 
> pos=(x0, y0, z0)
> radius = R
> color = (r,g,b)
> etc.
> 
> I am using VPython of course. Please help me.

The correct response to your statement is here:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Tim Delaney


From ville at spammers.com  Mon Aug 23 13:57:09 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 20:57:09 +0300
Subject: Dynamic Scoping problem
References: <b8320fb9.0408230713.5f3d2d7a@posting.google.com>
	<ckoWc.502662$Gx4.193756@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <du7llg5ohze.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Andrew" == Andrew Koenig <ark at acm.org> writes:

    Andrew> That said, I should point out that global variables are
    Andrew> usually a bad idea.

But also let me point out that they are not as bad an idea as they are
in e.g. C, because they are only *module* global, and are a handy way
of implementing singletons.

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From eppstein at ics.uci.edu  Thu Aug  5 13:35:22 2004
From: eppstein at ics.uci.edu (David Eppstein)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 10:35:22 -0700
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<opsb9g3hjudgjose@mail.yahoo.it>
	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051213180.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1203.1091724074.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051258000.10473-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <eppstein-15F2C0.10352205082004@news.service.uci.edu>

In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051258000.10473-100000 at ccc6.wpi.edu>,
 Christopher T King <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote:

> On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Anthony Baxter wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 12:29:51 -0400, Christopher T King <squirrel at wpi.edu> 
> > wrote:
> > > What does one do if a decorator raises an exception?  
> > 
> > def deco(func):
> >       raise TypeError
> > 
> > @deco
> > def foo():
> >     print "hello"
> 
> Yes yes yes, I /know/ they are /able/ to raise exceptions.  My point was 
> about handling them in a clean, concise way.

What do you do if any other piece of code raises an exception?
Why do you think decorators should be any different?

If this is an actual possibility, there's nothing preventing you from 
wrapping a decorated def inside a try-except block.

-- 
David Eppstein
Computer Science Dept., Univ. of California, Irvine
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/


From jjl at pobox.com  Wed Aug 11 18:38:18 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 23:38:18 +0100
Subject: ClientCookie
References: <6f402501.0408110018.1e4e5ca8@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <87llglqp0l.fsf@pobox.com>

fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord) writes:

> Has anyone used ClientCookie to store cookies ? 
> I'm going to play around with 'pickling cookies' - but I wondered if
> anyone had any experience of this.
[...]

There shouldn't be any problem with that.  You can pickle the
CookieJar itself, or the cookies inside it ([c for c in cookiejar] --
and use .set_cookie() to get them back into a new CookieJar).

May I suggest instead using cookielib, from Python CVS?  (note that
POSTs with urllib2 are broken in 2.4a2, so don't use that)

cookielib is a new module in 2.4, and is a cleaned-up version of the
cookie-handling parts of ClientCookie.


John


From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Thu Aug  5 13:35:26 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 13:35:26 -0400
Subject: Decorator syntax
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408050856390.31290-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu>
References: <mailman.1173.1091670172.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<38ednYT1NLz1P4zcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
	<JEiQc.16955$_25.574@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408050856390.31290-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <LYmdnWjvktBA8o_cRVn-tA@giganews.com>

Christopher T King wrote:

>  Languages with support
> for these things already have a clear, consice way of specifying these 
> things:
> 
>  def classmethod foo(self):
>      pass
> 
> Why can't we do the same with Python?  The syntax doesn't have to 
> support user constructs (indeed, it shouldn't), and it doesn't have to 

exactly my thoughts,

but then someone comes along and vehemently argues
how this will break Emacs or Jedit and on top of that
it won't allow you to do some *really cool* stuff, like
multi-decorations for a truly pythonic iteration over
the AccuWeather 10 day forecast datadump.

 > Compare to the current state of affairs:

 >@partializer(5)
 >@make_my_function_awesome
 >@author('Chris King')
 >@accepts(int,int,int)
 >@classmethod
 >def foo(self,a,b,c):
 >     """Returns a+b*c."""
 >
 >      return a+b*c

Yuck! Down with them funny symbols!

i.



From BruceEckel at MailBlocks.com  Sun Aug  1 21:25:23 2004
From: BruceEckel at MailBlocks.com (Bruce Eckel)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 19:25:23 -0600
Subject: The term "Protocol"
In-Reply-To: <1f7befae04080117515cbb0ca9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <pan.2004.07.31.12.27.23.547000@hotmail.com>
	<roy-982174.13075831072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<cegqdu$2fb$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<mailman.1020.1091310303.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-FDE83B.19595731072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1022.1091319366.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011814020.21160-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1032.1091401185.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011957470.22508-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
	<1f7befae04080117515cbb0ca9@mail.gmail.com>
	<6910338109.20040801192523@MailBlocks.com>
Message-ID: <BruceEckel-0fzDpAZ1OhUMm8pRoVythkXevP3vGCO@mailblocks.com>

Sunday, August 1, 2004, 6:51:15 PM, Tim Peters wrote:

> Iteration is a protocol, not a type.

I know the term "protocol" has been used to describe a language
feature in a number of languages, but since we have no official
"protocol" support in Python I'm interested in what "we" mean by this
term. I'm going to guess that a protocol is like an interface in Java,
except that it doesn't have a concrete definition anywhere, but it is
implied through convention and use. Thus a protocol is a "latent
interface." Am I close? I'd like to understand this term better.

Bruce Eckel




From bitshadow at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 15 23:46:55 2004
From: bitshadow at yahoo.com (Michael Scarlett)
Date: 15 Aug 2004 20:46:55 -0700
Subject: Anyone use VPython?
References: <8f17f4bc.0408141932.46b7c405@posting.google.com>
	<69juh0dalfeu39fpvvvcb56ukovl0o1fsb@4ax.com>
	<8f17f4bc.0408151258.35874dbc@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <ce6aaec0.0408151946.53148248@posting.google.com>

alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali) wrote in message news:<8f17f4bc.0408151258.35874dbc at posting.google.com>...
> Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote in message news:<69juh0dalfeu39fpvvvcb56ukovl0o1fsb at 4ax.com>...
> > On 14 Aug 2004 20:32:49 -0700, alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali) wrote:
> > 
> > >Anyone use VPython?
> > 
yup


From jmfbahciv at aol.com  Sun Aug 29 06:38:53 2004
From: jmfbahciv at aol.com (jmfbahciv at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 04 10:38:53 GMT
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<776e0325.0408260433.449660c8@posting.google.com>
	<412dfc1c$0$65599$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<86hdqpriww.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<412e199e$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<jdoherty-2708041631070001@192.168.2.178>
	<4130654c$0$19703$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>
	<0MiYc.109993$TI1.98802@attbi_s52>
Message-ID: <4131c4e4$0$19722$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>

In article <0MiYc.109993$TI1.98802 at attbi_s52>,
   Joe Smith <Joe.Smith at inwap.com> wrote:
>jmfbahciv at aol.com wrote:
>
>>>AND HOW MANY SPACES PER TAB STOP?
>> 
>> Eight.  Now talk about indenting skip returns...that one
>> required blood transfusions.  [emoticon looks at list of n.g.]
>> I guess not many will understand.
>
>I understand.
>The style I used for PDP-10 macro assembly language was
>   *) Indent two spaces for error return from subroutine or UUO (or jsys)
>   *) Indent one space for instructions that skip or may skip.
>
>The other point of contention was what to put between the opcode and
>its arguments; space vs tab.  I had some TECO macros that would
>undo the damage after pristine code had been munged by someone
>not conforming to style.  :-)

<GRIN>  And we had some that put them back.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


From ely.stob at elvis.com  Mon Aug  2 18:40:31 2004
From: ely.stob at elvis.com (Ely Stob)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 15:40:31 -0700
Subject: IronPython-0.6 is now available!
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>	<ce9cp3$g39$1@bagan.srce.hr>
	<mailman.908.1091065191.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<410963E4.2040106@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <b83c9f9c.0408021440.2001d7ad@posting.google.com>

"Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote in message news:<410963E4.2040106 at v.loewis.de>...
> I have worked a lot with C# and .NET lately, and found two things:
> - the VM is very well designed. It does not really work for languages
>    other than C#, though (and, yes: I believe that it does not work
>    well for Python either, despite IronPython's existance (*))
                                                            ^^^
Where is the referent of your asterisk?

I'm very much interested in why you insist that the CLR does not work
well for Python, in the face of an apparently solid existence proof,
in the form of IronPython, that that simply isn't the case.

I know you have a sound understanding of Python, and sometimes
understanding beats apparent empirical evidence...


Ely


From fumanchu at amor.org  Wed Aug 25 17:09:39 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:09:39 -0700
Subject: python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E75@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Brett C. wrote:
> I just don't want people to suddenly get the impression that they can
> always just throw a little mutiny every time Guido makes a decision. 
> Do that and he will just ignore what people want period and never even
> give people a chance to propose an alternative once it reaches
> python-dev.

Well said.

> And I want people to realize my tirade was just that, a personal
> tirade.  It was out of frustration and thus should be taken with a
> grain of salt.

But that frustration is grounded in reality.

> And that frustration came from the feeling that the Python community,
> which I love, seemed to suddenly form a mob, grab pitchforks and
> torches, and started screaming.  And then they seemed to hold a public
> meeting with *everyone* proposing their idea and not completely
> listening to initial decisions.

I attribute the breakdown-of-process to scale issues, and not much else.
The decorator debate had:
    a) the largest body of dissenters I've ever seen for a new Python
feature, and
    b) the largest volume of alternate proposals.

Many new features have had a certain amount of tweaking to be done even
after Guido has pronounced. Each of these tweaks requires communication.
In the case of decorators, the volume of communication required was
simply too much for the medium of Usenet, which promotes short,
tangential discussions rather than systemic analysis. This is the
primary reason I felt a focused paper would benefit the process.

One of my hopes is that, for large, complex community responses in the
future, someone else will do the same. This proposal sets a precedent
for those cases which overload the normal response process. However, it
should be made clear that _not every response warrants this format_.

In Brett's language, go ahead and hold "public meetings". But either
hire a Usenet police force or (much better) police yourselves--when the
debate begins to explode, form a task force and write a proposal or two.
I am *not* placing blame on anyone here, just pointing out that this is
the first time such a step was needed. We are all watching it play out
for the first time. Let's learn from it and apply those lessons next
time.

Although I like J2, I'm not rabid about it (and despite the opinions of
the pundits, I do *not* have "too much free time"; far from it). I could
have written an equally-compelling paper on any of the alternatives. I
am far more dedicated to the "meta-outcome" of this proposal, that Guido
is presented with alternatives in a usable and effective fashion, than I
am in which option he selects. The "next level" of course, is whether
that goal is met and how to reproduce such a success (or avoid such a
failure) in the future.

> I truly hope that next time Guido makes a decision that people as a
> whole disagree with everyone involved can get together and discuss it
> calmly without flooding my inbox.  =)

Me too. This isn't a fundamentally hard problem, it simply happens to be
a management issue for a bunch of techies. Once in a while, Guido's
"cabinet" needs to manage people and process as much as it does source
code. As Python gains more of a following, this will occur more often.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From russblau at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 19 16:13:56 2004
From: russblau at hotmail.com (Russell Blau)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:13:56 -0400
Subject: ZeroDivisionError: float division (baby steps)
References: <6daa8765.0408191133.2f2e22e3@posting.google.com>
	<cg3184$vbr$02$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <2okg05Fbh7kjU1@uni-berlin.de>

"Benjamin Niemann" <pink at odahoda.de> wrote in message
news:cg3184$vbr$02$1 at news.t-online.com...
> Artemisio wrote:
> > I am a non programmer who just started with Python. So far I love it.
> >
> > I would appreciate if you could help me fix this error I get taking this
exercise:
> >
> > count= 0
> > sum= 0.0
> > number= 1
> > print "Enter 0 to exit the loop"
> >
> > while number != 0 :
> > number= input("Enter a number: ")
> >
> > count= count + 1
> > sum= sum + number
> >
> > count= count -1
> > print "The average is: ",sum/count
> > #the error is in the above line
> >
> > "ZeroDivisionError: float division"
> >
> > Thank you in advance, Len
> I think the two lines after input() should be indented as the belong to
> the while loop...

Note that, even after you fix this, you will still get an error if the user
decides to enter "0" as the first number!


-- 
I don't actually read my hotmail account, but you can replace hotmail with
excite if you really want to reach me.




From jjl at pobox.com  Mon Aug  2 15:18:48 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 02 Aug 2004 20:18:48 +0100
Subject: Sending Mail via Extended MAPI
References: <cedl93$puv$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net> <87llh18dqt.fsf@pobox.com>
	<cel7e7$9q4$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
Message-ID: <87pt69uz53.fsf@pobox.com>

David Fraser <davidf at sjsoft.com> writes:
> John J. Lee wrote:
[...]
> > IIRC, there's a commercial COM server that wraps up Extended MAPI and
> > exposes a clone of the Simple MAPI interface.
> 
> I think this must be Outlook Redemption ...

Yeah, that rings a bell.  From the name, I guess I misremeber the API
it exposes, though...



> anyway we'll try and see
> if we can implement what we need without them :-)

Rather you than me :-)


John


From edvard+news at majakari.net  Wed Aug  4 03:54:31 2004
From: edvard+news at majakari.net (Edvard Majakari)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 10:54:31 +0300
Subject: Reading message size
Message-ID: <874qnjcp8o.fsf@titan.staselog.com>


I'm trying to create an improved front-end for training messages for a
spam filter. I discovered an excellent Python module email - now it's so
easy to support variety of mailbox formats. However, I need to know exact
size of the message (in bytes) and skip the message if it is too large,
before passing the message to filter.

This is easy with MH or Maildir style directories - because each message
is on separate file, it is trivial to get the file size. However, with
mbox or any other format containing several messages in a file, I'm unable
to find out individual message size.

Of course, I could find this out by writing a message to a temp file and
afterwards checking the temp file size, but I think that's awkward and
inelegant. Is it somehow possible with email module?

-- 
# Edvard Majakari		Software Engineer
# PGP PUBLIC KEY available    	Soli Deo Gloria!

$_ = '456476617264204d616a616b6172692c20612043687269737469616e20'; print
join('',map{chr hex}(split/(\w{2})/)),uc substr(crypt(60281449,'es'),2,4),"\n";



From lonetwin at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 04:42:50 2004
From: lonetwin at gmail.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:12:50 +0530
Subject: TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'NoneType' and
	'str'
In-Reply-To: <dddbi0dicg77fea6lfu74v3ab03gi3fjd3@4ax.com>
References: <dddbi0dicg77fea6lfu74v3ab03gi3fjd3@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <5a309bd30408200142e937d2d@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Martin,
>   File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/distutils/sysconfig.py", line 159, in
> customize_compiler
>     cpp = cc + " -E"           # not always
> TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'NoneType' and 'str'
> make: *** [build] Error 1

Judging by the error I'm guessing that you might not have a c or c++
compiler installed. Run the following command to check if you have the
required rpms:

rpm -q gcc
rpm -q gcc-c++

Install them if you they are missing and then rerun 'configure' and 'make'.

HTH
Steve


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Thu Aug 12 11:50:47 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:50:47 -0400
Subject: os.removedirs not working
In-Reply-To: <AgMSc.14099$nx2.8519@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <mailman.1562.1092323531.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121127160.5408-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<AgMSc.14099$nx2.8519@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121150030.5994-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, CptPicard wrote:

> You could use shutil.rmtree : it works fine!

Oh wow, I completely forgot about shutil.  Good stuff, that.



From nomail at nospam.no  Thu Aug 19 13:51:38 2004
From: nomail at nospam.no (Dominic)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:51:38 +0200
Subject: My only complaint about Python
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1975.1092934935.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>	<cg2ko0$2jl$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
	<mailman.1975.1092934935.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cg2p8k$h3a$1@news.uni-kl.de>


> I have a batch script to create libpython23.a, for those who are
> interested.  It requires pexports-0.42h from
> http://starship.python.net/crew/kernr/mingw32/pexports-0.42h.zip
> extracted to C:\Program Files\pexports-0.42h, and of course mingw.
I have successfully built libpython23.a using
implib.exe provided with the free Borland C/C++ command line
compiler package.
Once this is done, cygwin-gcc can be used to create
_native_ windows modules.
If someone is interested I'll try to collect the
necessary commands and flags from my Makefiles.

Ciao,
  Dominic


From alex_stante at yahoo.de  Sun Aug 15 18:19:29 2004
From: alex_stante at yahoo.de (Alexander Stante)
Date: 15 Aug 2004 15:19:29 -0700
Subject: Control an external console program
Message-ID: <cfonhh$op8@odah37.prod.google.com>

Martin DeMello wrote:
> Check out http://pexpect.sourceforge.net/
Thank you! That is exactly was I was looking for.

Alex



From chris.irish at libertydistribution.com  Wed Aug  4 17:31:43 2004
From: chris.irish at libertydistribution.com (Chris Irish)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 14:31:43 -0700
Subject: Finding all time periods for a given interval within a
	date	range
In-Reply-To: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022DD9@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022DD9@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <411155BF.1090102@libertydistribution.com>

Robert Brewer wrote:

>Graeme Longman wrote:
>  
>
>>I was wondering if anyone has written some Python code which 
>>uses a start
>>date and end date and a given interval (day, month or year) 
>>and outputs all
>>the time periods for that range and interval.
>>
>>For example you may wish to find all the months between the dates
>>'2004-02-14' and '2004-08-04'. You would maybe use a function 
>>where you pass
>>in those starting and ending dates and the interval 'month' 
>>and you'd get
>>back a list of those months. I guess you would need to year 
>>part of the date
>>too, so ['2004-02', '2004-03', '2004-04', '2004-05', 
>>'2004-06', '2004-07',
>>'2004-08']. If you had passed in 'day' as the interval then 
>>you would be
>>given back a list of all the days in those months.
>>    
>>
>
>You should also look into the mx.DateTime module it has all sorts of time functionality already built into it much better than the python time module.  Have a look here   
>
>http://www.egenix.com/files/python/mxDateTime.html
>  
>

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From grv575 at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 24 22:07:45 2004
From: grv575 at hotmail.com (grv575)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 19:07:45 -0700
Subject: % format strings
References: <144d0df.0408231455.6b664466@posting.google.com>
	<412A76A7.4C87D17C@alcyone.com>
	<537ea4cd.0408231919.4ada3ca1@posting.google.com>
	<412abc53$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <144d0df.0408241807.d0ad7e3@posting.google.com>

great thx.  didn't know that was valid C.  it wouldn't compile on my
end b/c of mixing C++ style include directives and C ones it looks
like.


From giva at users.sourceforge.net  Thu Aug 19 16:46:21 2004
From: giva at users.sourceforge.net (Gisle Vanem)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:46:21 +0200
Subject: My only complaint about Python
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu><cg2ko0$2jl$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
	<mailman.1975.1092934935.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4125119b$1@news.broadpark.no>

"John Hunter" wrote:

> Your paths may vary...
> 
>     copy c:\windows\system32\python23.dll .
>     c:\progra~1\pexports-0.42h\bin\pexports python23.dll > python23.def
>     c:\MinGW\bin\dlltool --dllname python23.dll --def python23.def --output-lib libpython23.a
> 
>     copy libpython23.a c:\python23\libs
>     del python23.dll
>     del libpython23.a

Shouldn't that be "libpython23.dll.a" as per normal conventions
on MingW? I.e. a static lib would be "libpython23.a". But I guess
that's impossible or impractical.

--gv


From elbertlev at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 22 23:39:45 2004
From: elbertlev at hotmail.com (Elbert Lev)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 20:39:45 -0700
Subject: 2 GB files
References: <9418be08.0408221427.182a4d30@posting.google.com>
	<prSdnX0h1KUgubTcRVn-gg@lmi.net>
Message-ID: <9418be08.0408221939.7003bd3c@posting.google.com>

> Elbert: you might get a positive response if you rephrased your post.
> 
> "Our corporation needs functionality ___. We would be happy to pay a
> contract consultant $n000 to come up with a solution that will work with a
> future trajectory of Python releases."
> 
> 
> David

David!

I appreciated your sarcasm very much. 

I want to assure you that our corporation is perfectly able to hack
code not worse then others can. But reading the postings, which talk
about this issue I thought, that if this feature is "half" supported
and is widely requested, why not to explain why it is needed.

IMHO the most attractive feature of Python is not its syntax, but the
library and the size of distribution. In fact, straight from the box
8-9 MB distribution is sufficient to solve many everyday
programming/administration problems. This is good, but can be
improved. There are some needed pieces missing in standard
distribution and this is one of them. By the way I (almost) do not
care about the speed: it is reasonable right now, can be improved, by
proper data structure/algorithm selection and if one really needs
speed ? C is available.

I suggest start discussing additions to the library. This will improve
the package and make it easier to administer.

> Or you could pray to the OSS gods.

All is about language acceptance.

In my daily programming activities there are several alternatives to
Python, f.e. Java or .NET with their comprehensive libraries of
classes (much richer then Python's). And what stops me from using it?
The size of the distributive! I understand that adding too much will
result in an increase of the size of distribution, but something has
to be done.


From timr at probo.com  Tue Aug 10 01:22:59 2004
From: timr at probo.com (Tim Roberts)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 22:22:59 -0700
Subject: upper memory limit
References: <mailman.1328.1091861642.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<3hdbh0d3af4gjbj6psec10nahls0u3nuu3@4ax.com>
	<mailman.1395.1092062481.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <vqmgh01rue8u7lsnnm8jht6k301e5luj43@4ax.com>

Peter Wilkinson <pwilkinson at videotron.ca> wrote:
>
>Why do you say that  single process is limited to 2 Gig?  I believe that on 
>windows a single process can run with to 32 bits addressed or 4 Gig of 
>space. I have run R with over 2 Gig of memory.
>
>Why would python be limited to 2 Gig (including overhead)? I don't see that 
>python should be any different.

(I responded privately, but thought I should register the answer here,
too.)

No, a user-mode process in Windows is limited to 2GB of address space.
Addresses 80000000 and larger are kernel space.  You can change the
threshhold to 3GB by using the /3gb boot.ini switch, but few do so.

You can certainly have more than 2GB of physical RAM in your machine, but a
single process cannot use more than 2GB at a time.
-- 
- Tim Roberts, timr at probo.com
  Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.


From http  Wed Aug 18 14:37:57 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 11:37:57 -0700
Subject: Embedding Python in Python
References: <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
Message-ID: <7xu0v0l2be.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Robey Holderith <robey at slash_dev_slash_random.org> writes:
> Anyone know a good way to embed python within python?

No.

> I'd like to allow user-defined scriptable objects.  I'd
> like to give them access to modify pieces of my classes.
> I'd like to disallow access to pretty much the rest of
> the modules.

There was a feature called rexec/Bastion for that purposes in older
version of Python, but it was removed because it was insecure.

> Any ideas/examples?

Run your sensitive stuff in a separate process (or separate computer)
and allow the hostile clients to communicate through sockets.


From calidusdk at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 20 17:39:24 2004
From: calidusdk at hotmail.com (Artemisio)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 14:39:24 -0700
Subject: ZeroDivisionError: float division (baby steps)
References: <6daa8765.0408191133.2f2e22e3@posting.google.com>
	<cg3184$vbr$02$1@news.t-online.com> <2okg05Fbh7kjU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <6daa8765.0408201339.2ab815e9@posting.google.com>

"Russell Blau" <russblau at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<2okg05Fbh7kjU1 at uni-berlin.de>...
> "Benjamin Niemann" <pink at odahoda.de> wrote in message
> news:cg3184$vbr$02$1 at news.t-online.com...
> > Artemisio wrote:
> > > I am a non programmer who just started with Python. So far I love it.
> > >
> > > I would appreciate if you could help me fix this error I get taking this
>  exercise:
> > >
> > > count= 0
> > > sum= 0.0
> > > number= 1
> > > print "Enter 0 to exit the loop"
> > >
> > > while number != 0 :
> > > number= input("Enter a number: ")
> > >
> > > count= count + 1
> > > sum= sum + number
> > >
> > > count= count -1
> > > print "The average is: ",sum/count
> > > #the error is in the above line
> > >
> > > "ZeroDivisionError: float division"
> > >
> > > Thank you in advance, Len
> > I think the two lines after input() should be indented as the belong to
> > the while loop...
> 
> Note that, even after you fix this, you will still get an error if the user
> decides to enter "0" as the first number!

Well, thank you very much for your feedback. I've sorted out now. For
some reason the last two lines were indented. Unindenting them
producted the expected behaviour.

I am actually amazed by how intuitive and readable Python coding is.
I've spent maybe 12 hours with it and I can already code small
routines of my own. I felt more frustrated last time I tried to learn
VB. I gave up. Python is my game.


From john.burton at jbmail.com  Wed Aug 18 11:55:34 2004
From: john.burton at jbmail.com (john.burton at jbmail.com)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 08:55:34 -0700
Subject: Windows URL protocol handler in python?
Message-ID: <cfvu5m$lk@odbk17.prod.google.com>

Thanks,
from a quick browse that sounds like a good starting point (and
probably far too much effort for what I had in mind)



From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Aug  6 08:12:14 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 14:12:14 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
In-Reply-To: <HBF.20040806beaz@bombur.uio.no>
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no> <4112AC7B.1060508@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806egka@bombur.uio.no> <411343D7.3020604@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806c08y@bombur.uio.no> <411353A3.8090502@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806beaz@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <4113759E.2070405@v.loewis.de>

Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
>>"Written by Martin v. L?wis"
> 
> 
> So if the file has -*- coding: iso-8859-1 -*-, how does that doc string
> look to someone using a iso-8859-2 locale?

Let's start all over. I'm referring to a time when there was no encoding
declaration, and PEP 263 was not written yet. At that time, I thought
that a proper encoding declaration (i.e. a statement) would be the
best thing to do. So in my example, there is no -*- coding: iso-8859-1 
-*- in the file. Instead, there is a directive.

About the unrelated question: How should a docstring be displayed
to a user working in a different locale? Well, in theory, the docstring
should be converted from its source encoding to the encoding where
it is displayed. In practice, this is difficult to implement, and
requires access to the original source code. However, Francois Pinard
has suggested to add an __encoding__ attribute to each module,
which could be used to recode the docstring.

About your literal question: In the current implementation, the string
looks just fine, as this docstring is codepoint-by-codepoint identical
in iso-8859-1 and iso-8859-2.

> Just like a str7bit directive, in whatever form, would not catch the
> missing u in front of the doc string.

Not necessarily. It would be possible to go back and find all strings
that fail to meet the requirement.

Notice that your approach only works for languages with single-byte
character sets anyway. Many multi-byte character sets use only
bytes < 128, and still they should get the warning you want to produce.

>>(of course, requiring that people use escape sequences for
>>them might be acceptable).
> 
> 
> Argh!  Please, no.

Think again. There absolutely is a need to represent byte arrays
in Python source code, e.g. for libraries that manipulate binary
data, e.g. generate MPEG files and so on. They do have a legitimate
need to represent arbitrary bytes in source code, with no intention
of these bytes being interpreted as characters.

Regards,
Martin


From sandskyfly at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 17 19:19:34 2004
From: sandskyfly at hotmail.com (Sandy Norton)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 16:19:34 -0700
Subject: Flython?
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <b03e80d.0408171519.5b3f3424@posting.google.com>

Peter Hansen wrote:

> In the vein of Jython, I wonder what it would take to build
> a Flython?  (Lousy name, I know.)  That would take Python
> source, presumably a subset since some things couldn't be supported,
> and compile it into ActionScript bytecode (aka the bytecode compiled
> from ECMAScript source for the Macromedia Flash player environment).

Have you looked at http://ming.sourceforge.net/

Sandy


From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 21 13:54:46 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:54:46 -0500
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <cg670n$3pv$1@news.wrc.xerox.com>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl> <ZFoVc.360$MR2.1503@news1.mts.net>
	<cg55p6$ofq$1@news.wrc.xerox.com>
	<JYuVc.410$MR2.2033@news1.mts.net>
	<cg670n$3pv$1@news.wrc.xerox.com>
Message-ID: <%_LVc.982$MR2.3626@news1.mts.net>

> from which we conclude that "check the definition" means "check the
> definition in the dictionary *I* prefer. . .AND stop reading before it
> contradicts the position I espouse."
> 
> Look, given the use of "quantum" in quantum physics it's reasonable to
> expect the word to mean something small - but insisting it must do so
> is flat-out wrong.  For one thing this isn't Gell-Mann appropriating a
> nonsense word - "quark" - from Joyce; "quantum" was a perfectly good
> English word before Planck applied it to black-body radiation.  The OED
> has references going back to 1619 as a synonym for quantity.  (It even
> has a use in pharmacology - "quant. suff!", famously chanted in Alfred
> Bester's /The Stars My Destination/, is an abbreviation of "quantum
> sufficit," roughly "as much as necessary.)
> 

I have my opinion, you have yours.  Why get your pantyhose in a bunch. 
I made mention of my reasoning that you didn't touch on, you just got 
agressive straight away... why am I replying?


From peter at engcorp.com  Sun Aug 22 11:36:04 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:36:04 -0400
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2154.1093185852.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2154.1093185852.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <3Ludncfl1Pd2IbXcRVn-gg@powergate.ca>

Robert Brewer wrote:

> III. Choosing a keyword
[snip good list of principles]
> -Candidates for keywords have fallen into two or three camps, and
> emphasize different aspects of decorators: 
> 
> -Declarative: declare, predef, moddef 
> -Transformative: transform, wrap, modify, mutate 
> -Attributive/Annotative: amend, using, having 
> -Directive: pragma, signify 
> -Associative: helper, qualify, qual, meta 
> -Cross-cutting: imbue, endow, bestow, embellish, extend, accum, glom,
> confer
> -Prepositions/Adverbs: using, through, per, via, by
> 
> I had an ugly paragraph promoting 'declare' as a top candidate, but I've
> always liked 'using' (which many of you promoted within the past 24
> hours). Maybe the above will produce further polarization among you. ;)

+1 on "using" as the best of the choices above.

I find the declarative ones awkward, transform inappropriate when
transforming is not going on, attributive ones okay (but "amend"
sounds like it must come afterwards), directive too compiler-like,
associative not bad but too abstract, cross-cutting too much like
"decorate" not to mention sort of frivolous-sounding, and prepositions
mostly too vague (except for "using" again).

-Peter


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 10 21:03:43 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 21:03:43 -0400
Subject: measuring 1/100th seconds, what function?
In-Reply-To: <cfbqs1$1fi$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
References: <pan.2004.08.10.21.16.01.728029@yahoo.com>
	<IpKdnWmNFKf1o4TcRVn-gg@powergate.ca>
	<cfbqs1$1fi$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
Message-ID: <TamdnUapgtXt7YTcRVn-pA@powergate.ca>

Bengt Richter wrote:

> On windows I like to use time.clock()
[snip samples showing better resolution than time.time()]
> IOW, time apparently gets the NT4 basic os time slice delta (10ms),
> whereas clock tries to get something better (and it's pretty good).

All true, though the OP said he wanted code that would work on both
platforms (though Tim's response shows how trivial it is to
dynamically pick the best routine).

Presumably there's a human involved somewhere, plus a multitasking
OS with other things going on, and Python as well (not widely known
as a good hard realtime language ;-), so going for the extra
resolution of time.clock() is likely to be an exercise in higher
resolution, but no better accuracy...

-Peter


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Fri Aug  6 09:28:18 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:28:18 -0400
Subject: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was Decorator syntax)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1253.1091765877.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <6LWdnZCpvI7Ico_cRVn-hw@giganews.com>
	<L0DQc.10331$cK.3791@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>
	<mailman.1253.1091765877.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408060926480.30087-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Anthony Baxter wrote:

> The solution, if you don't like the syntax, is not voting. It's to
> propose an argument that Guido will accept, in favour of your preferred
> option.

We can't propose a dozen different syntaxes.  We're voting for our 
benefit, not his.  The argument presented will be built around the syntax 
voted for here.



From shane.holloway at ieee.org  Tue Aug 24 18:55:46 2004
From: shane.holloway at ieee.org (Shane Holloway (IEEE))
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 16:55:46 -0600
Subject: Decorators: J2 and a relation to @
Message-ID: <412BC772.5000502@ieee.org>

Decorators.  Yep, in your inbox again.  I'll be short about it.  But 
first, I should put out a disclaimer: I'm not opposed to the pie-syntax. 
  I'm just tired of writing my method names three times, and having the 
important 'classmethod' below the function.

Now... on with it!

 From the example in Section II, part 3 of 
http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html consider the following 
decorated function.

     @using([
         funcattrs(author="Guido van Rossum"),
         memorize,
         synchronize,
         classmethod,
     ])
     def foo(cls, *args):
         pass


This looks an lot like the suite method proposed in J2 in the current 
syntax of Python 2.4a2.  All that would need to be added is a "using" 
decorator method.  I like the @ because it makes me take note that the 
following is special in terms of code execution.[*]

What do you think?
-Shane Holloway



[*] I could actually see @ being used to introduce smalltalk/ruby-esk 
block closures... but that's a totally different discussion for a much 
different time.  <1.2-wink>


From raims at dot.com  Tue Aug 10 03:39:21 2004
From: raims at dot.com (Lawrence Oluyede)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 09:39:21 +0200
Subject: Importance of C# (was Re: IronPython-0.6 is now available!)
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>	<ce9cp3$g39$1@bagan.srce.hr>
	<5dydnZSDZaARoZXcRVn-ug@powergate.ca>	<1n5z28erh2m3u.dlg@baczek.net.invalid>	<FvCdnVnESJR0ZpXcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.921.1091114694.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<537ea4cd.0408070757.14790cfe@posting.google.com>
	<41155c78$0$4348$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<144d0df.0408092156.1455f2af@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1o2ouxh30essi.1eewz4ary5xj3.dlg@40tude.net>

In data 9 Aug 2004 22:56:55 -0700, grv575 ha scritto:

>  Really MI
> causes more issues and confusion than it solves.

Do you know about Python new style classes and MRO?

-- 
Lawrence (l dot oluyede at virgilio dot it)
"In IE we trust"


From unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom  Fri Aug  6 04:36:45 2004
From: unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom (Michel Claveau - abstraction méta-galactique non triviale en fuite perpétuelle.)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:36:45 +0200
Subject: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was Decorator syntax)
References: <6LWdnZCpvI7Ico_cRVn-hw@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <cevg5s$i91$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>

Vote...

And what is the position from Kerry and/or Bush ?





From tim.peters at gmail.com  Mon Aug  2 16:39:55 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:39:55 -0400
Subject: os.walk() maxdepth
In-Reply-To: <IixPc.66684$OR2.3898494@news3.tin.it>
References: <IixPc.66684$OR2.3898494@news3.tin.it>
Message-ID: <1f7befae04080213396d7d1cbc@mail.gmail.com>

]GMTaglia <liquid at nospamkuht.it>]
> I've googled a lot but I couldn't figure out how to implement a maxdepth in
> os.walk(), does anybody had the necessity to do something like that?

No, but

    for root, dirs, files in os.walk(whatever):
        ....
        if root.count(os.sep) >= CUTOFF_DEPTH:
            del dirs[:]

will prune the search based on the number of separator characters in
the directory currently being visited.  Mutating dirs in-place
controls which directories the os.walk generator looks at when it's
resumed.  This is only effective in a top-down walk (which is the
default).


From apardon at forel.vub.ac.be  Fri Aug 27 04:19:19 2004
From: apardon at forel.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 08:19:19 GMT
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
	<dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
	<aN5Xc.205341$M95.157379@pd7tw1no>
	<1gj4fb5.607xsc51izh8N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xllg25lkt.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj4u3a.12ttba9fynd6uN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncis152.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<1gj5bp4.qhup8tldmvebN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <slrncitrk7.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>

Op 2004-08-26, Alex Martelli schreef <aleaxit at yahoo.com>:
> Antoon Pardon <apardon at forel.vub.ac.be> wrote:
>    ...
>> Then python has already deviated from the one obvious way to do it.
>
> Yep, ever since it let you code 2+3 and 3+2 with just the same effect --
> which was from day one, and couldn't have been otherwise.  _Preferably_
> only one way, but as I said what's preferable can't always be achieved.
>
> Nevertheless, when for some task there _is_ one obvious way to do it,
> adding a feature whose main effect would be giving two alternative
> obvious ways to do it would be unPythonic.
>
>> I can do:
>> 
>>   a = a + b   vs    a += b.
>
> Yes you can, and in the general case get very different effects, e.g.:

And what about

  a += b    vs   a.extend(b)

>
>>>> c=a=range(3)
>>>> b=range(2)
>>>> a+=b
>>>> c
> [0, 1, 2, 0, 1]
>
> versus:
>
>>>> c=a=range(3)
>>>> b=range(2)
>>>> a=a+b
>>>> c
> [0, 1, 2]

I wouldn't say you get different effects in *general*. You get the
same effect if you use numbers or tuples or any other immutable
object.

> So, which one is the obvious way to do it depends on what 'it' is.  In
> some cases it doesn't matter, just like b+a and a+b are going to have
> the same effect when a and b are numbers rather than sequences, and
> there's nothing Python can do to fight this -- practicality beats
> purity.  If you're (when feasible) altering the object to which name 'a'
> is bound, a+=b is the obvious way to do it; if you're in any case
> rebinding name 'a' and letting the original object stand undisturbed,
> 'a=a+b' is the one obvious way to do THAT.  Not all objects can be
> altered, so the first ones of these tasks isn't always going to be
> feasible, of course.
>
>> 
>> or
>> 
>>   a = b + c   vs     a = ''.join(b,c)
>
> You should try out the code you post, otherwise you risk ending up with
> code in your face -- ''.join(b, c) will just raise an exception, which
> is a VERY different effect from what b + c will give in most cases.
> I'll be charitable and assume you meant ''.join((a, b)) or something
> like that.
>
> Again, it's only in one very special case that these two very different
> 'ways to do it' produce the same effect, just like in other different
> special cases 'a = b + c' and 'a = c + b' produce the same effect and
> there's nothing Python can do about it.
>
> But let's be sensible: if 'it' is joining two strings which are bound to
> names b and c, b+c is the only OBVIOUS way to do it.  Building a
> sequence whose items are b and c and calling ''.join on it is clearly an
> indirect and roundabout -- therefore NOT "the one obvious way"! -- to
> achieve a result.  Proof: it's so unobvious, unusual, rarely used if
> ever, that you typed entirely wrong code for the purpose...

That is just tradition. Suppose the "+" operator wouldn't have worked
on strings an concatenating would from the start been done by joining,
then that would have been the one obvious way to do it.


> Nobody ever even wished for there to never be two sequences of code with
> the same end-result.  The idea (a target to strive for) is that out of
> all the (probably countable) sequences with that property, ONE stands
> out as so much simpler, clearer, more direct, more obvious, to make that
> sequence the ONE OBVIOUS way.

And what if it are three sequences of code with the same end-result,
or four. From what number isn't it a problem any more if two sequences
of that length or more produce the same result.

> We can't always get even that, as a+b vs
> b+a show when a and b are bound to numbers, but we can sure get closer
> to it by respecting most of GvR's design decisions than by offering
> unfounded, hasty and badly reasoning critiques of them.

I think that this goal of GvR is a bad one. If someway of doing it
is usefull then I think it should be included and the fact that
it introduces more than one obvious way to do some things shouldn't
count for much.

Sure you shouldn't go the perl-way where things seemed to have
been introduced just for the sake of having more than obvious way
to do things. But eliminating possibilities (method chaining)
just because you don't like them and because they would create
more than one obvious way to do things, seems just as bad to
me.


What I have herad about the decorators is that one of the
arguments in favor of decorators is, that you have to
give the name of the function only once, where tradionally
you have to repeat the function name and this can introduce
errors.

But the same argument goes for allowing method chaining.
Without method chaining you have to repeat the name of
the object which can introduce errors. 

>  
>> The difference between
>> 
>>   print somelist.sort()
>> 
>> and
>> 
>>   somelist.sort()
>>   print somelist
>> 
>> 
>> is IMO of the same order as the difference between
>> 
>> 
>>   print a + b
>> 
>> and
>> 
>>   r = a + b
>>   print r
>
> For a sufficiently gross-grained comparison, sure.  And so?  In the
> second case, if you're not interested in having the value of a+b kept
> around for any subsequent use, then the first approach is the one
> obvious way;

No it isn't because programs evolve. So you may think you don't
need the result later on, but that may change, so writing it
the second way, will making changes easier later on.

> if you ARE, the second, because you've bound a name to it
> (which you might have avoided) so you can reuse it (if you have no
> interest in such reuse, it's not obvious why you've bound any name...).
>
> In the first case, fortunately the first approach is illegal, the second
> one is just fine.  Were they exactly equivalent in effect neither would
> be the one obvious way for all reasonable observer -- some would hate
> the side effect in the first case, some would hate the idea of having
> two statements where one might suffice in the second case.

So? I sometimes get the idea that people here can't cope with
differences in how people code. So any effort must be made
to force people to code in one specific way.

> Fortunately the first approach does NOT do the same thing as the second
> (it prints out None:-) so Python sticks to its design principles.  Let
> me offer a private libation to whatever deities protect programmers,
> that Python was designed by GvR rather than by people able to propose
> analogies such as this last one without following through on all of
> their implications and seeing why this SHOWS Python is consistent in
> applying its own design principles!

That these implications are important is just an implication on the
design principles. If someone doesn't think particular design principles
are that important, he doesn't care that if somethings is changed that
particulat design principle will be violated. Personnaly I'm not
that impressed with the design of python, it is a very usefull language
but having operators like '+=' which have a different kind of result
depending on whether you have a mutable or immutable object is IMO
not such a good design and I wonder what design principle inspired
them.

-- 
Antoon Pardon


From rnd at onego.ru  Sat Aug 14 16:16:58 2004
From: rnd at onego.ru (Roman Suzi)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 00:16:58 +0400 (MSD)
Subject: PEP318
In-Reply-To: <u3psh01caf78qblml981e9tq2foa25umch@4ax.com>
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<20040812090056.00001e31@titan>
	<7ttmh0t8c3cogtbhhnp1ohqu8b51pda461@4ax.com>
	<roy-DC33F4.12335012082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<k98nh0pfqsedoisj6ou0rm85a9ir4t7a0v@4ax.com>
	<mailman.1586.1092379388.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<u3psh01caf78qblml981e9tq2foa25umch@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408150015230.8852@rnd.onego.ru>

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Arthur wrote:

>On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:43:05 +1000, Anthony Baxter
><anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:03:19 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
>>> >def foo ():
>>> >   whatever
>>> >foo = decorator (foo)
>>> >
>>> >is that you have to type the word "foo" three times.
>>>
>>> Big f**king deal - all things considered. ;)
>>
>>When this name is a PyObjC name that might be 70 characters long,
>>it becomes a big deal.
>
>PyObjC keeps being mentioned as the poster project for @decorator.

Maybe its better idea to store decorators in resource fork ;)


Sincerely yours, Roman Suzi
-- 
rnd at onego.ru =\= My AI powered by GNU/Linux RedHat 7.3


From justin__devine at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 30 13:52:41 2004
From: justin__devine at hotmail.com (Justin)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 10:52:41 -0700
Subject: "Content-Length" header
Message-ID: <cgvph9$err@odbk17.prod.google.com>

I have a program that downloads files from the web.  There are
instances in which a .info() will not return a "Content-length" header
to me.  Is ther a way to specifically request this header or FORCE it
to be sent?  I know there is some way to get the file size for these
files because Internet Explorer is capable of determining the size on a
cut / paste of the same exact url.



From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Aug  4 13:18:49 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 19:18:49 +0200
Subject: How to force a single number to be a tuple
References: <mailman.1138.1091636758.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-6EC9F2.12271204082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1142.1091637381.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cer5pq$is$02$1@news.t-online.com>

Gandalf wrote:

>>y = (2,)
>>
> Funky. However, very logical. You can also write:

>>> () == (,)
  File "<stdin>", line 1
    () == (,)
           ^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax
>>> (1) == (1,)
False
>>> (1, 2) == (1, 2,)
True
>>>

Very logical indeed...

> Python is the best. :-)

Of course, the above not withstanding :-)

Peter



From t-meyer at ihug.co.nz  Mon Aug  2 20:01:39 2004
From: t-meyer at ihug.co.nz (Tony Meyer)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:01:39 +1200
Subject: Call for Grant Proposals
In-Reply-To: <ECBA357DDED63B4995F5C1F5CBE5B1E8650B74@its-xchg4.massey.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <ECBA357DDED63B4995F5C1F5CBE5B1E86C53FC@its-xchg4.massey.ac.nz>

> What you are saying is that all projects should be 
> open sourced but that may not be the case. Either that or you are 
> indiscriminately lobbying for the cause of open source irregards of 
> whether companies are ready for it or not, and then discriminating 
> against companies who are not ready for it yet.
[...]
> I will think that it is tyrannic to assume all work must be open
> sourced.

It seems to me that the idea here is (or might be) that all work benefiting
from these grants are open sourced, which is not the same as all work, at
all.  Given that Python is an open source project, and that the funding for
the grant comes from Python users (and some associated open source projects
like SpamBayes), this doesn't seem like a reasonable requirement.  In fact,
it seems that it's a reasonably logical one, one that the people that have
contributed the funding would appreciate, and one that would be most likely
to advance Python in some way.

Given that there is a wide variety of open source licence, and that Python
tends towards the least constrictive, it seems even less of a problem.  If,
for example, a funded project was to create some library for Python, which
might help out lots of other users, there would be nothing stopping a closed
source project making use of this library.  Sure other people could too, but
there are always strings attached to grants.

> But the wordings and inexactness of this call 
> for grant proposal makes it hard for me even to get to convince my 
> people that we should put in an application, not mentioning the 
> rubber-stamping.

Well, it seems to me that the trouble here is really that you haven't
managed to hear back officially from the grant committee yet.  But, as you
probably know, there are always issues that need to be clarified with
grants, and especially so with the first time that a grant is offered.
Likewise, grant committee are always slow to respond to questions (even
those that aren't run by volunteer organisations).

=Tony Meyer



From npat at efault.net  Fri Aug 13 17:07:06 2004
From: npat at efault.net (Nick Patavalis)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 21:07:06 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<mailman.1583.1092378965.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnchpf2s.7ld.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<mailman.1614.1092408264.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnchq1c4.am7.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<mailman.1630.1092425261.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnchqbbq.am7.npat@gray.efault.net>

On 2004-08-13, Dave Brueck <dave at pythonapocrypha.com> wrote:
> Nick Patavalis wrote:
>> 
>> I also mentioned web-browsers, ray-tracers, circuit-simulators. I
>> could add word-processor, spreadsheets, video editing programs, and
>> GUI toolkits to the list. Are they still too exotic?
>
> No - but I still don't think they reflect anywhere near a majority of 
> the development that goes on.  

Yes, the majority of development goes on little *glue programs* that
take data from a database, and format is as XML/HTML, or aggregate and
analyze data stored in a database, and stuff like that. But for all
these to be possible a massive amount of *infrastructure* is
required. And this infrastructure cannot be created in Python. So you
don't say that Python isn't a glue language, but that the greatest
percentage of development that currently goes-on *is* glue-stuff
development.

This of-course presupposes that the infrastructure *is* available,
that it is stable, and that it doesn't have to be modified or
augmented. For me a "primary" language is not the language in which
you develop most of the software, but the language in which you
develop the current and future software
*infrastructure*. Quantitatively most of the software is glue-stuff
anyway!

Put yourself in this position: Its a few years ago (say 1998 or 1999),
and no graphical web-browser exists for Linux. You are planning to
develop the "iso-standard" web-browser for this operating
system. Would you do it in Python? Remember that no HTML parsers
exist, no decent HTML renderers, the GUI toolkit is more or less
primitive, and the low-end desktops runs at about 200-something
MHz. You might argue "this is not the case today", but how can you
preclude that *similar* challenges do not occur today, or will not
occur in the future? Are you saying that all the computationally hard
problems have been already solved? Or are you saying that, as a Python
programmer you don't want to deal with them? Another example: It's
2004 again, and you decide to scrap and replace the age-old X11 window
system; do away with it and start from scratch. Build a moder
windowing system; 3D all over, fully network transparent, with widget
support on the server-side, fully object oriented interface, and so
on. How much of it would you be able to code in Python? How much
*more* would you rather be able to code in Python?

/npat


From edreamleo at charter.net  Wed Aug  4 20:11:15 2004
From: edreamleo at charter.net (Edward K. Ream)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 19:11:15 -0500
Subject: Confused about pep 318
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10h2up8825kch2b@corp.supernews.com>

> As in many other software efforts, the code has moved along a bit
> faster than the documentation (after all, what's more fun to do?).
...
> Guido indicated there that he brought up the topic at
> EuroPython in his keynote talk and entertained discussion from the floor.
> Based upon that discussion he decided to go with the @-decorator syntax.

Well, this isn't good.  We are talking about a basic design document here.
I feel like I have been kept in the dark; my previous relative silence is
hardly evidence of my agreement.  How is it possible to pretend that people
agree with a proposal that DOES NOT EXIST?  I am -10 on pep 318 now: this
process amounts to a rigged election.  I might become neutral in the future
once the hood is removed from over the candidate's head :-)

> I believe the only significant differences from a pure functional
> documentation standpoint to apply to the PEP are the syntax

Why is something "spectacular" like the '@' sign is needed?  Presumably
there is some problem with the compiler?  Has anyone suggested something
like:

from __future__ import annotation as annotate

annotate.accepts(int, (int,float))

instead of:

@accepts(int, (int,float))

Clearly, with enough work the Python compiler could recognize this.  Yes,
it's a special case, but so what?  This would avoid most problems with
reserved words or keywords.  And it would be in the spirit of letting
modules encapsulate most major features.

Edward

P.S. The more I think of this proposal, the more unhappy I become.  In fact,
this proposal may have a most unfortunate effect on Leo's future, for two
reasons:

1. Although Leo handles constructs like @accepts, it does so by generating
lines like this:

#@verbatim
@accepts(int, (int,float))

So _Leo_ has no problem, but Leo's users will likely complain that more
cruft has been added to their files.

2. Leo presently supports the following directives:

@ (followed by one or more whitespace characters)
@all, @asis,
@c, @code, @color, @comment,
@delims, @doc,
@encoding, @end_raw,
@file, @first,
@header,
@ignore,
@killcolor,
@language, @last, @lineending,
@nocolor, @noheader, @noref, @nosent, @nowrap,
@others,
@pagewidth, @path,
@quiet,
@raw,
@root, @root-code, @root-doc,
@silent,
@tabwidth, @terse, @thin,
@unit,
@verbose,
@wrap

Worse, Leo allows plugins to define their own directives.  There is already
a plugin that defines @wiki.  Furthermore, @run, @test and @suite are also
used in special contexts.

What happens when another Python @x construct conflicts with one of these
directives or some other directive?  I'm starting to wonder whether Python
is a snake or a gorilla :-)

Yes, Python does have the right to use '@'.  But I would hope that GvR would
choose not to do so. I was always under the impression that the clear
statement in the Reference Manual that at signs are invalid everywhere
(except in comments and strings) was a clear signal of an intention to keep
those symbols for other valid purposes.  I am extremely unhappy that this
may not be so.

P.P.S.  I did respond earlier to the requested survey, saying in brief that
I had no problems with 318 provided that '@' signs did not become a part of
the syntax.  I have received no reply from anyone.  There is no way somebody
could construe my previous statements as approval.

EKR
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Edward K. Ream   email:  edreamleo at charter.net
Leo: Literate Editor with Outlines
Leo: http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------




From michael at michael.com  Tue Aug 10 06:44:12 2004
From: michael at michael.com (michael)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:44:12 GMT
Subject: How do I get IDLE on Suse Linux 9.x?
Message-ID: <0G1Sc.149588$fv.89578@fe2.columbus.rr.com>

Hi.

I am reasonably experienced with Python (and love it!) on Windows. I am a
programmer that toils in c++ on Win 32 mostly but just to learn more, I am
playing with Suse 9. Linux.

Of course the first thing I tried to fire up was Python. From the command
line, I can access Python 2.3 with no problem.

I tried to run / search for IDLE which I thought was a standard install on
any python installation but it is not present.

My question is this: Should I just use a text editor and go without IDLE? Is
there another IDE standard on Linux? Do I need to download something to get
IDLE?

Sorry to ask such a basic question.

Michael




From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 12 13:04:43 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:04:43 -0400
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
In-Reply-To: <OzHSc.3413$M8.9@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
	<60dfb6f6.0408111846.615ee9eb@posting.google.com>
	<3YWdnYxLf--ObofcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<cffbbu$amv$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<OzHSc.3413$M8.9@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <411ba32b$1@nntp.zianet.com>

Paul McGuire wrote:
> Looking at the code, it appears that this is how the current '@'
> syntax is defined, that a funcdef is optionally preceded by a
> 'decorators' group, consisting of one or more 'decorator' (looking at
> both Grammar/Grammar and compile.c).
> 
> So I think this 'technical problem' is just conjecture.  (Should
> check with Anthony Baxter to confirm.)

It looks like they plan on getting around this "problem" by explicitly 
eating newlines whenever they match the special '@' rule. This solves 
the look-ahead problem with the parser, albeit in kind of an ugly way.

I don't have my source handy, does anything else eat newlines like this?

   -- Mark


From luismg at gmx.net  Sun Aug 15 01:26:08 2004
From: luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss)
Date: 14 Aug 2004 22:26:08 -0700
Subject: IronPython-0.6 is now available!
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com><mailman.1398.1092065544.5135.python-list@python.org>	<278de0e.0408100515.5fd3740c@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1471.1092169905.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<278de0e.0408101929.cc3d8c8@posting.google.com>
	<cfld99$q81$02$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <278de0e.0408142126.49ea45ba@posting.google.com>

> 
> I that were true, no translation should be needed and no benefits of such a
> translation be expected. 
> 
> But then I'm just a skeptic, don't believe me. Try it.
> 
> Peter


Even though IronPython will be fully compatible with trhe CLR, it will
still be a dynamic language, with the performance penalty that it
represents.
So in cases where speed is critical, you'll be able to replace the
bottlenecks with c# or other static typed .Net compliant language.
However, Jim Hugunin announced that in the future, Ironpython will
have optional static typing, theoretically making it as fast as c#.


From brian at sweetapp.com  Fri Aug 13 06:13:48 2004
From: brian at sweetapp.com (Brian Quinlan)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 12:13:48 +0200
Subject: Why I love python.
In-Reply-To: <411C8CD9.32F39C2@mega-nerd.com>
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<411C8CD9.32F39C2@mega-nerd.com>
Message-ID: <411C945C.3040603@sweetapp.com>

Erik de Castro Lopo wrote:
>>  def sum (a, b):
>>    return a + b
>>
>>How can the compiler know what code to produce? 
> 
> 
> I know of at least one language which has solved this problem, Ocaml
> 
>     http://www.ocaml.org/
> 
> Its called type inferencing and since there is at least one working 
> implementation, it can't be THAT hard.

You are comparing apples and oranges. The programmer provides OCaml 
with additional information that allows it to interfer the type. 
Looking at the example above, the OCaml equivalent would be:

let sum x,y = x + y;;

But this function would only work for integers because the * operator 
only applies to integers. If you wanted to multipy floats then you 
would write:

let sum x,y = x +. y;;

So there is no magic in OCaml, just a different way of providing type 
information.

Cheers,
Brian


From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Aug 22 03:29:50 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (Simon John)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 00:29:50 -0700
Subject: Global config option - import issues again.....
In-Reply-To: <cg93jr$ftq@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <cg9i1e$ojv@odbk17.prod.google.com>

Been looking at using ConfigParser, which might be worth doing, but
still doesn't help me select which .ini/.conf file to parse in the
first place.

I don't want to set a Registry value for the language to use, and I
don't want to have to read/parse the .ini file for each imported
module.

How do people deal with swapping languages around at runtime?
Is anyone going to reply to this thread but me?! ;-)



From dave at boost-consulting.com  Wed Aug 25 10:46:35 2004
From: dave at boost-consulting.com (David Abrahams)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:46:35 -0400
Subject: Unpythonic Python
References: <8a638f47.0408240034.653a92ff@posting.google.com>
	<zn4lvsib.fsf@python.net>
	<8a638f47.0408240700.13c39f57@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <uzn4j2s38.fsf@boost-consulting.com>

dave at boost-consulting.com (David Abrahams) writes:

> Thomas Heller <theller at python.net> wrote in message news:<zn4lvsib.fsf at python.net>...
>> dave at boost-consulting.com (David Abrahams) writes:
>> 
>> > I started having some weird problems with Python recently; they're so
>> > weird that I can't begin to explain them.  All I can do is describe
>> > the symptoms and hope someone else has a clue.  So here goes:
>> >
>> > FreeBSD 4.2, Python 2.2.2. 
>> >  
>> > I have a nightly cron job that downloads the boost cvs tarball from
>> > SourceForge and bunzip2s it.  For about a year everything worked with
>> > no problems. About a month ago the download started getting truncated
>> > with no error reported.
>> 
>> There were some problems with anonymous CVS on sourceforge, which also
>> affected the nightly CVS tarballs.  Can it have to do with this?
>> I also had problems downloading the CVS tarball for ctypes - but it
>> seems now repaired.
>> 
>> http://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=2352&group_id=1#1093021394
>
> That's not the problem.  I can download the file reliably from other machines.

Actually it appears that urllib is having some problem on Unix, at
least the one from Python-2.2.x.  This fails on Both FreeBSD and
Linux:

  urllib.urlretrieve(
        'http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cvstarballs/boost-cvsroot.tar.bz2', 
        'boost-cvsroot.tar.bz2')

Trying again with Python 2.3 on Cygwin.

-- 
Dave Abrahams
Boost Consulting
http://www.boost-consulting.com


From po-yung.liu at pandora.be  Sun Aug 22 06:17:59 2004
From: po-yung.liu at pandora.be (Vent d'Est - East Wind)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 10:17:59 GMT
Subject: 100 % portable ?
Message-ID: <rp_Vc.221989$xO.10939509@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

i have some question about portability of python

for my part i work under the 3 systemes (windows , linux , mac os x 
sometimes mac os classic too )

i want to know how i can be sure at 100 % that my programme is portable
(i dont want code each times i use other system )

i suppose for GUI is same

wich thing need i pay attention (language , system , library .. )
do you have some graphic library to propose (i see GTK , Tkinter and 
WXwindow )

thankx in advance for you reply

East wind


From jfabiani at yolo.com  Wed Aug  4 13:14:29 2004
From: jfabiani at yolo.com (John Fabiani)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 17:14:29 GMT
Subject: eric3 completion
References: <953AD2389idtoken@128.91.2.239>
Message-ID: <VP8Qc.429$NK5.219@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>

grv wrote:

> This is the only IDE that looks very useable on linux of everything I've
> looked at (and not to start a dev environment war) but one thing that is
> troublesome is the word completion.
> 
> There is a user-contributed script to parse all the dll and py files to
> make a list of functions & attributes for each namespace, but it doesn't
> pick up some things like file.seek() and datetime.today().  The script
> complains that no source files found, yet other built-ins like open() are
> picked up.  Any guidelines on how to get all the default stuff working for
> code completion?
I didn't know Eric had any scripts that offered completion.  
Where can a guy find that script?
John


From a at b.com  Wed Aug 18 03:10:05 2004
From: a at b.com (wonder)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:10:05 +0800
Subject: passing the url of the current webpage to python script
Message-ID: <cfv10u$1eu8$1@news.hgc.com.hk>

Dan Greenblatt wrote:

 > wonder wrote:
 >
 >> Hi,
 >>
 >> How can I pass the url of the current webpage link to a python 
script in   html?
 >>
 >> thanks
 >> sam
 >
 >
 > are you using a python script as a helper application?


yeah, sort of. I m building a html page that will call a python script 
by passing it the current URL of the webpage. The html page will be 
opened by any web user with any web browser.

thanks
sam


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Sat Aug 28 02:35:30 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 16:35:30 +1000
Subject: loggin
Message-ID: <1093674930.413027b296270@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

in my web app. i log debug messages to a file. however, sometimes the
messages appear more than once even though the code in which the log
statement appears gets executes only once
i have a utilities.py file which defines a getLogger() method as follows

logger = logging.getLogger('../logs/umapp')
hdlr = logging.FileHandler('../logs/umapp.log')
os.system("chmod 755 ../logs/umapp.log")
formatter = logging.Formatter('%(asctime)s %(levelname)s %(message)s')
hdlr.setFormatter(formatter)
logger.addHandler(hdlr)
logger.setLevel(logging.INFO)
return logger

all my cgi scripts the the start make the call - logger =
utilities.getLogger()

the scripts then log debug messages during different stages of their
execution.

however, some of these debug messages appear 2 or 3 times on the log file.
i have verified that the particular code block in which the log statement
is present is executed only once

any ideas

thanks
cheers



----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 02:19:01 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:19:01 +1000
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <AugVc.4535$Jn5.4362@fe1.texas.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1989.1092960560.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<AugVc.4535$Jn5.4362@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040819231966c8eb07@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 06:03:12 GMT, Paul McGuire
<ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> wrote:
> BTW, where are all the votes for option "A"?  Where are all the people who
> hated it but now like it?

Based on what others have said (including Peter Hansen) I was led to believe
that the point of this exercise was to collect votes on _alternates_
to the current
syntax. In that case, I don't see much point in "voting" for it -
particularly since
Guido's going to be utterly uninterested in votes. Of the syntaxes proposed on
the wiki, the only one I think is worth pursuing is the 'decorate:'
block before
the def. I just realised I never posted my problems with this form, as
I promised.
They are:

  -  a new keyword means a 'from future import decorators' for 2.4. (This is, I 
think, pretty much _required_)
  - I find the indentation counter-intuitive, but at the same time,
necessary for
this form. It's abusing indentation-means-new-block. Is that abuse better or 
worse than the pie-decorator applying to the next line? I don't know. 
  - the choice of 'decorate'/'transform'/something else as the keyword.

Please note that this post is _not_ to be considered a vote for, or against, any
of the forms.

FWIW, since the release of 2.4a2, I've sent something like 200 email messages
(including python-list/c.l.py) on the subject of decorators. To say
that I'm utterly
burned out on the entire issue is something of an understatement.

And to repeat a request I made to python-dev - please keep this voting thread
in comp.lang.python. Unless you have _new_ technical points to raise, please,
please do not flood python-dev with further "I like this" or "I don't
like that" posts.


From mb at muenster.de  Tue Aug  3 14:42:43 2004
From: mb at muenster.de (Martin Bless)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 18:42:43 GMT
Subject: Newbie: pywin problem
References: <rCrPc.154159$Mr4.50525@pd7tw1no>
	<BcAPc.29745$K53.22947@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <4110dc43.3388296@news.muenster.de>

["Neil Hodgson" <nhodgson at bigpond.net.au>]:

>There is a mailing list for Win32 Python issues at
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32

That's interesting.

Could it be made availabe at news.gmane.org?

That would be great.

mb - Martin



From gk_2345 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 09:30:41 2004
From: gk_2345 at yahoo.com (George Kinney)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:30:41 -0400
Subject: stopping windows services
References: <cg3lgl$eou$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <10ibvqlagd6eg3f@corp.supernews.com>


"Bart Nessux" <bart_nessux at hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cg3lgl$eou$1 at solaris.cc.vt.edu...
> Can Python be used to stop windows services? I'm writing a script to
> automaically remove some troublesome Symantec software, but before
> running the main removal script, I need to kill some services.


if you know the services name, and are running under an account with
sufficient permissions, you could just use the cmd shell.

i.e. os.system('net stop Apache2') - kills my apache server, and obviously
os.system('net start Apache2') starts it again.

Probably a nicer API out there somewhere though.




From rhh at structurelabs.com  Sun Aug 22 14:55:25 2004
From: rhh at structurelabs.com (r holland)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 11:55:25 -0700
Subject: Python is to C as letters are to words.
Message-ID: <b14bfabe.0408221055.4f2dc1e7@posting.google.com>

My nine word description of the python language.


From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Aug  6 18:46:57 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 00:46:57 +0200
Subject: PEP 263 status check
In-Reply-To: <10h7u8m9qknh76e@news.supernews.com>
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com> <4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de>
	<10h5hgvpafm8a64@news.supernews.com> <41133C76.8040302@v.loewis.de>
	<10h6rklt3fa1690@news.supernews.com> <41137799.70808@v.loewis.de>
	<10h724r20kkeqb2@news.supernews.com>
	<HBF.20040806qchc@bombur.uio.no>
	<10h7u8m9qknh76e@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <41140A61.3040600@v.loewis.de>

John Roth wrote:
> I've
> been in this business for close to 40 years, and I'm
> quite well aware of backwards compatibility issues
> and issues with breaking existing code.
> 
> Programmers in general have a very strong, and
> let me repeat that, VERY STRONG assumption
> that an 8-bit string contains one byte per character
> unless there is a good reason to believe otherwise.

You clearly come from a Western business. In CJK
languages, people are very aware that characters can
have more than one byte. They consider UTF-8 as just
another multi-byte encoding, and used to consider it
as an encoding that Westerners made to complicate their
lifes. That attitude appears to be changing now, but
UTF-8 is not a clear winner in the worlds where we
Westerners would expect it to be a clear winner.

> The current design allows accidental inclusion of
> a character that is not in the 7bit ascii subset ***IN
> A PROGRAM THAT HAS A UTF-8 CHARACTER
> ENCODING DECLARATION*** to break that
> assumption without any kind of notice. 

This is a problem only for the Western world. In the
CJK languages, such programs were broken a long time
ago. I don't think Python needs to be so Americo-centric
as to protect American programmers from programming
mistakes.

> That in
> turn will break all of the assumptions that the string
> module and string methods are based on. That in
> turn is likely to break lots of existing modules and
> cause a lot of debugging time that could be avoided
> by proper design.

Indeed. If the program is currently not broken, why
are you changing the source encoding? If you are
trying to support multiple languages, a properly-
designed application would use gettext instead
of putting non-ASCII into source code.

If you are writing a new application, and you
put non-ASCII into the source, in UTF-8, are you
not testing your application properly?

> I'm not worried about this causing people to
> abandon Python. I'm more worried about the
> current situation causing enough grief that people
> will decided that utf-8 source code encoding isn't
> worth it.

Again, this is what Hallvard's PEP is for. It
does not apply to UTF-8 only, but I see no reason
why UTF-8 needs to be singled out.

> I'll withdraw my objection if you can seriously
> assure me that working with raw utf-8 in
> 8-bit character string literals is what most programmers
> are going to do most of the time.

In what time scale? Near time, most people will use
other source encodings. In the medium term, I expect
Unix will switch to UTF-8 throughout, at which point
using UTF-8 byte strings will work on every Unix
system - the scripts, by nature, won't work on non-Unix
systems, anyway. In the long term, I expect all Python
strings will be Unicode strings, unless explicitly
declared as byte strings.

Regards,
Martin


From mwh at python.net  Wed Aug 18 07:38:11 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:38:11 GMT
Subject: sys.stdin.read() replacement
References: <mailman.1728.1092656302.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m3u0v0llr0.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

"Ben Last" <ben at benlast.com> writes:

> import readline will work on Windows:
> a) if you're running the cygwin python, inside cygwin
> b) if you've installed a readline module; there are at least two available.
> Excuse me for the self-referential answer, but about half and hour before I
> read this, I wrote a blog entry all about readline modules, with links to
> and comments about the Windows ones.  The permalink is
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/benlast/16766.html or it's the most recent
> entry at http://www.livejournal.com/users/benlast/
> 
> Karin: if you do import a readline, you can then use sys.stdin.readline() to
> read a line of input, and you should get some sort of history functionality
> (up-arrow, for example, will recall a previous line).

Uh, I don't think this is the case; sys.stdin.readline() never uses
the readline functionality.  Do you mean raw_input()?

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
8. A programming language is low level when its programs require
   attention to the irrelevant.
  -- Alan Perlis, http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/perlis-alan/quotes.html


From tismer at stackless.com  Fri Aug  6 06:42:41 2004
From: tismer at stackless.com (Christian Tismer)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 12:42:41 +0200
Subject: psyco out of memory
In-Reply-To: <m3acx9tp5b.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
References: <cetpoc$udc$1@bagan.srce.hr>
	<m3acx9tp5b.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <411360A1.8060607@stackless.com>

Michael Hudson wrote:

> Ivan Voras <ivoras at __geri.cc.fer.hr> writes:
> 
> 
>>I have this simple *dumb* benchmark-like program:
>>
>>#import psyco

It crashes here, right?

I think I know this problem. Armin submitted
a patch concerning memory mapping. Upgrading to
the current cvs version and building by hand should help.

>>#psyco.full()
>>
>>d = 0.0
>>for i in xrange(1000000000):
>>     d += i
>>print d

You need to wrap this into a function, or you will
not get accelerated.

>>I though I'd use it to try out psyco, but no, when I enable the first
>>two lines, python core-dumps:
>>
>>Fatal Python error: psyco: out of memory
>>Abort (core dumped)
> 
> 
> Hum.  Are you using the ivm or the x86 backend?
> 
> Also, you might have better luck just using range()...

No, there is no difference using range or xrange, but the
fact that your machine will blow up if Psyco is not in
place and you try to build a range that huge. That's why
I prefer xrange.

ciao - chris


p.s.:
Btw. there has been a bug in Psyco which made the xrange
case slower when using Psyco with Stackless. No Stackless bug,
simply the case that I do a PyType_Ready() on xrange which
standard Python dowsn't, and that inserts a defaul init
function that Psyco did not support (until Wednesday)

-- 
Christian Tismer             :^)   <mailto:tismer at stackless.com>
Mission Impossible 5oftware  :     Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a     :    *Starship* http://starship.python.net/
14109 Berlin                 :     PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/
work +49 30 89 09 53 34  home +49 30 802 86 56  mobile +49 173 24 18 776
PGP 0x57F3BF04       9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619  305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04
      whom do you want to sponsor today?   http://www.stackless.com/



From strawman at NOSPAM-DELETE-THIS.astraw.com  Tue Aug 10 19:11:10 2004
From: strawman at NOSPAM-DELETE-THIS.astraw.com (Andrew Straw)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:11:10 -0700
Subject: floating point exception (SIGFPE weirdness)
Message-ID: <cfbkmf$hpq$1@naig.caltech.edu>

I'm running into trouble when calling a 3rd party library (the Intel IPP 
library to do some fast math on a P4 processor).  This is on debian 
linux 2.6.7 using python 2.3.4.

I've been using Pyrex to wrap my calls to this C library into an 
extension module, and a certain function call within my extension module 
(to the C function ippiAddWeighted_8u32f_C1IR) will terminate my Python 
program when called for the 2nd time, with the line "Floating point 
exception" mysteriously appearing on the console.  (Mysterious in part 
because I can't redirect these words with piping stdout or stderr.)  I 
should note that this function calls not only the normal Pentium 
floating-point machinery, but should also call the SSE and SSE2 
instruction sets.

A few clues:

1) A trivial C program which makes the same function call repeatedly 
with the same data is not terminated.

2) Running the python executable under gdb causes the program to 
continue running without terminating.

3) The behavior (termination) is not changed after rebuilding Python 
from source, compiling with --with-fpectl and building the fpectl 
module, calling fpectl.turnoff_sigfpe().

I don't really understand what is happening, but I'd like my code to run 
without terminating due to this floating point exception. My best guess 
is that SIGFPE is being generated by the C function call, and Python 
does not catch it so the OS terminates Python.  If this is so, however, 
I'm not sure why Python should be terminated and why my simple C program 
is not.  Furthermore, I don't understand why gdb doesn't see SIGFPE if 
this is the case.

I would be very grateful if someone could tell me how to keep my program 
running!

Cheers!
Andrew


From ng01.spamguard at icewater.org  Tue Aug 17 15:43:22 2004
From: ng01.spamguard at icewater.org (mike)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:43:22 -0400
Subject: favorite python web development tool?
Message-ID: <10i4nttktcvltdd@corp.supernews.com>

hi all -


i'm fairly new to python, coming from a java servlet / velocity template 
background.  i'm looking for a good python web development tool, and 
hope to find some suggestions here.

given my background, webware+cheetah feels comfortingly familiar, and 
i'm leaning toward it.  before i dive in, though, i'm wondering what you 
experienced users think about it, compared to the other tools that are 
out there.  eg, does the python environment have strengths that are 
better exploited with something other than a servlet-like model?


thanks for your thoughts!


-- 
pssst: ".spamguard" isn't in my real e-mail address.


From nzanella at cs.mun.ca  Thu Aug 19 13:22:59 2004
From: nzanella at cs.mun.ca (Neil Zanella)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 10:22:59 -0700
Subject: staticmethod problems
Message-ID: <b68d2f19.0408190922.23956f3d@posting.google.com>

Hello,

Coming from C++ and Java, one of the surprising things about Python is that
not only class instances (AKA instance objects) but also classes themselves
are objects in Python.

This means that variabls such as x and y appearing inside class statements
in Python essentially behave like static class variables in other languages.
On the other hand a variable is specified as an instance variable as self.x
and self.y inside a class in Python. Unqualified variables appearing inside
the class are class variables and not instance variables.

So now what I would like to do, is access the static variable of a superclass
object from a subclass object from a static method in the subclass object.

Here is what is not clear to me:
Why don't the commentd out lines below work? I was
expecting that a polymorphic search taking place when I
call Y.foo() would find both x and y, but this did not happen.
In particular, why does python force me to write something
like I write in foo3() to enforce the behavior I want in foo()?


Thanks,

Neil

#!/usr/bin/python

class X:
  x = 10

class Y(X):
  y = 5
  def foo():
    print x + y
  foo = staticmethod(foo)
  def foo2():
    print X.x + y
  foo2 = staticmethod(foo2)
  def foo3():
    print X.x + Y.y
  foo3= staticmethod(foo3)

#Y.foo() # I was expecting the same behavior as below,
         # with the value 15 printed. Why is this not
         # working (and where can I find more about
         # staticmethod)?
#Y.foo2() # doesn't work either. Why?

Y.foo3() # works

print Y.x # Since the object.attribute notation is used
          # polymorphism is used to locate attribute x.
          # Since class object Y does not contain x the
          # immediate parent X is searched and x found
          # therein. Finally the value of x is printed.

class XA:
  x = 10

class YA(XA):
  def foo(self):
    print self.x

YA().foo() # Since the object.attribute notation is used
           # polymorphism is used to locate attribute foo()
           # which is not found in instance object YA() so
           # class object YA is searched next and foo() is
           # found therein and run.
           #
           # Once run the object.attribute notation is used
           # to locate x which is not found in instance object
           # self (AKA YA()) so class object YA is searched and
           # since x is not found there either the immediate parent
           # class object XA in the inheritance hierarchy is searched
           # and attribute x is found therein.
           #
           # Once the x is found the object it references is printed.


From nicoe at no-log.org  Thu Aug 19 07:50:25 2004
From: nicoe at no-log.org (Nicolas =?iso-8859-15?Q?=C9vrard?=)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:50:25 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <2ojheuFb9j2eU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<2ojheuFb9j2eU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <20040819115025.GG4327@smarties.nutellux.ath.cx>

* Oliver Fromme  [13:32 19/08/04 CEST]: 
>Lucas Raab <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> > Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> > about....
>
>I'm 00100001b (or 021h ... or if you prefer decimal, it's
>33 years).  Although I feel more like 27, which is the age
>of my GF.  :-)

Well if everybody feels like the age of his GF/BF, I'm 75 although I'm
only 27.

-- 
(?>  Nicolas ?vrard
/ )  Li?ge - Belgique
^^   


From npat at efault.net  Thu Aug 12 22:09:13 2004
From: npat at efault.net (Nick Patavalis)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 02:09:13 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<10ho7626f5f3f74@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <slrncho8m9.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>

On 2004-08-13, John Roth <newsgroups at jhrothjr.com> wrote:
>
> "Nick Patavalis" <npat at efault.net> wrote in message
> news:slrncho5aq.pfh.npat at gray.efault.net...
>> On 2004-08-13, Michael Scarlett <bitshadow at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Python needs drastic performance improvement if it is to scrap-off the
>> "scripting language" stigma.
>
> More performance would be helpful. There are a number
> of projects that are working toward that end, of which
> the most visible is the PyPy project.

Yes, I know about PyPy, and I think what they are trying to do is
write Python itself in a Python-subset that can be efficiently
compiled, or something along these lines. This is interesting (to say
the least).

>
> As far as I'm aware, the biggest current performance
> sink is function and method call overhead [...]
>
> Another thing to notice is the garbage collection
> algorithm [...]

Both very true!

>
>> The only way to get these improvements is
>> making it possible for a python implementation
>> to produce *efficient* *compiled* code.
>
> I think there are lots of people that would dispute
> you on that. Current Java environments run close
> to C++ performance due to the JIT compilers
> that are built into the runtimes.

You 're right, I was maybe a bit too dogmatic on my point. But you
must accept that JIT-compilers are, nevertheless, compilers! They may
be more intelligent and more flexible than traditional "ahead of time"
compilers, but still they are fundamentally compilers. Furthermore,
for most cases, it might be possible for an AOT compiler to produce a
"binary" that doesn't contain the compiler itself.

> Current JIT technology doesn't require pre-declaration of variable
> types; it's perfectly happy to insert checks at appropriate points
> so that it can reuse code when the object types don't change (which
> they don't most of the time.)

What you mean I guess, is that the first time a function is applied,
it is compiled to native-code, and a signature for the application is
generated. The next time, the application is checked against the
signature and if they match, the existing code is used, otherwise the
function is re-compiled (preserving the previously compiled one too,
is some sort of "cache"). Or am I getting it wrong? Even in such a
case though per-declarations would help.

Do you happen to know of any efforts to build such "AOT"/"JIT"
compilation/execution environments for Python?

Regards
/npat



From loic at fejoz.net  Tue Aug  3 08:37:53 2004
From: loic at fejoz.net (Yermat)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 14:37:53 +0200
Subject: automatic delegation
In-Reply-To: <HBF.20040803b8y6@bombur.uio.no>
References: <HBF.20040803b8y6@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <ceo0u1$kp0$1@arcturus.ciril.fr>

Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
> Is it possible to write a metaclass or something so that
> with a class definition not much larger than this:
> 
>    class foo:
>       def __init__(self, val): self.val = val
> 
> operations on a foo instance f will be applied to f.val?
> E.g. str(f) -> f.__str__() -> f.val.__str__().
> 

Here a simple example :

class proxy(object):
     def __init__(self, obj):
         self.obj = obj

     def __getattr__(self, key):
         if key in self.__dict__:
             return self.__dict__[key]
         else:
             return getattr(self.obj, key)

You can also look at:
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/ProxyProgramming

-- 
Yermat



From kraus at hagen-partner.de  Fri Aug 27 10:43:40 2004
From: kraus at hagen-partner.de (Wolfram Kraus)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:43:40 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
In-Reply-To: <sma8y7cg.fsf@python.net>
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no> <cgnbc4$7ul$1@ork.noris.net>
	<mailman.2523.1093613536.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<sma8y7cg.fsf@python.net>
Message-ID: <cgnh9l$b20$1@ork.noris.net>

Thomas Heller wrote:
> Aaron Bingham <bingham at cenix-bioscience.com> writes:
[...]
>>Or C-M-\ to re-indent the region "correctly" with respect to its
>>context.  This works far more reliably the using TAB to re-indent
>>single lines.
> 
> 
> How do you enter that on a german keyboard?
> 
> Thomas

CTRL-ALT-ALTGR-?

Wolfram


From paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it  Tue Aug 17 03:29:25 2004
From: paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it (User Paolino)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:29:25 +0200
Subject: python packages cross references
In-Reply-To: <2D89F6C4A80FA547BF5D5B8FDDD04523060CBB@exchange.adrembi.com>
References: <2D89F6C4A80FA547BF5D5B8FDDD04523060CBB@exchange.adrembi.com>
Message-ID: <4121B3D5.6050404@yahoo.it>



Roman Yakovenko wrote:
> Hi. I need help( or solution :-) ). 
> Problem: my project has 3 packages
> prj
>  +------A
>  +------B
>  +------Utils
> 
> The question is: what is the right way to use functionality from Utils in A and B packages ?
> I know that after importing package I know it's location, but it doesn't help me in any module within package A or B.
> I can add full path to prj to sys.path but it seems to be the wrong way. 
> May be I missed something? 
Adding fullpath is IMO even hacking than make symlinks  in the 
directories which has been my workaround.
My question still remains :why can't I walk back in directories 
('packaged') whit from/import statements?

	Regards Paolino




From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Thu Aug  5 00:25:13 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 04:25:13 GMT
Subject: Decorator syntax
References: <mailman.1173.1091670172.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<38ednYT1NLz1P4zcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <JEiQc.16955$_25.574@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"Peter Hansen" <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message
news:38ednYT1NLz1P4zcRVn-uA at powergate.ca...
<snip>
> For the record, the @ syntax is despicable and horribly
> un-Pythonic, IMHO, and I really hope never to read code that
> uses it. :-(
>
> (And my preferred syntax was "def f() [classmethod]:", FWIW)
>

Agreed.  And I also like your preferred syntax - clear, readable, no
eye-jarring symbols.

The references to Java and C# as justification or rationale for using @
remind me of when I lived in Maine. When I complained about how bad the
drivers were, inevitably the response was "we're not as bad as the drivers
in Massachusetts!"

If this was some impulsive lurch forward to just pick something and proceed,
I think we are seeing another backtick in the making.

I fear that $, ^ and ~ are just around the corner.

-- Paul




From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 13:38:45 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 03:38:45 +1000
Subject: Confused about pep 318
In-Reply-To: <e86dnZBJM6_n84_cRVn-jA@powergate.ca>
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>	<mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org>	<d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>	<mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051249050.10473-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1210.1091725930.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<e86dnZBJM6_n84_cRVn-jA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204080510383fc8e340@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 13:29:29 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> I'll make another donation to PSF if the final decorator syntax
> does not Perlishly use arbitrary punctuation as the @ syntax does.

FFS. What exactly is "Perlish" about @? It's an unused symbol. That's all.
It's hardly arbitrary - Java, for instance, already uses @ for the same thing.


From john.burton at jbmail.com  Mon Aug 16 05:56:30 2004
From: john.burton at jbmail.com (john.burton at jbmail.com)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 02:56:30 -0700
Subject: Windows URL protocol handler in python?
Message-ID: <cfq0ce$i0r@odak26.prod.google.com>

Is there a way to make a handler in python presumably using the win32
extensions to handle URLS of a specific type when they are given to
windows?

For example if I want to handle
myprotocol://server/id
using my own python program?
Any suggestions or references would be appreciated.



From fperez528 at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 16 02:17:27 2004
From: fperez528 at yahoo.com (Fernando Perez)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 00:17:27 -0600
Subject: Anyone use VPython?
References: <8f17f4bc.0408141932.46b7c405@posting.google.com>
	<sMedne34zqQT3r3cRVn-rA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <cfpjid$527$1@peabody.colorado.edu>

Peter Hansen wrote:

> Ali wrote:
> 
>> Anyone use VPython?
> 
> Noting the question, the first two responses you got, and
> your subsequent question, I suggest you would benefit
> from reading this short essay before posting again:
> 
> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Note to the original poster: before you think Peter is being arrogant or a
smartass, please realize that's probably the single most useful answer you'll
ever get to a question on the internet.  And yes, I've actually read that
document once or twice in the past, carefully.

So don't react badly, take his advice, read that document, make sure you
understand it, and try again.  I'm sure you'll find the result worth every
minute of effort spent.  Otherwise you'll continue to get correct answers like
you have so far to your questions.  Correct, but perfectly useless (because the
questions were worded _begging_ for useless answers).

best,

f


From insert at spam.here  Fri Aug 20 10:50:18 2004
From: insert at spam.here (Doug Holton)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:50:18 -0500
Subject: just ignore Guido's "rejections" [Re: Alternative decorator syntax
 decision]
In-Reply-To: <nPlVc.23904$Mt5.1223926@wagner.videotron.net>
References: <wRhVc.23879$Mt5.1140091@wagner.videotron.net>
	<mailman.2014.1092990953.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<nPlVc.23904$Mt5.1223926@wagner.videotron.net>
Message-ID: <2uadnbqpMuI1krvcRVn-sg@comcast.com>


> Anthony Baxter wrote:
>> This form (decorators inside the block) has been pretty convincingly
>> ruled out by Guido. I think the "last man standing" is the 
>> decorator-before-def
>> form, I really doubt you're going to convince people that  the form 
>> inside the
>> function is workable.

We can safely ignore Guido's "rejections" when deciding upon an 
alternative to agree upon.  Many people felt his rejections of C1 (a 
longtime community favorite), E1 and other alternatives were wrong.
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/048134.html


From ronaldoussoren at mac.com  Fri Aug 13 07:30:57 2004
From: ronaldoussoren at mac.com (Ronald Oussoren)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:30:57 +0200
Subject: PEP318
In-Reply-To: <0I2D001ZDU03UQ@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <0I2D001ZDU03UQ@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <3EC2EFCA-ED1C-11D8-9E11-000D93AD379E@mac.com>


On 13-aug-04, at 13:17, Arthur wrote:

>
>> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:03:19 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> 
>> wrote:
>>>> def foo ():
>>>>   whatever
>>>> foo = decorator (foo)
>>>>
>>>> is that you have to type the word "foo" three times.
>>>
>>> Big f**king deal - all things considered. ;)
>>
>> When this name is a PyObjC name that might be 70 characters long,
>> it becomes a big deal.
>
> I had asked this before:
>
> Does
>
> def __f(something):
>     dosomething
>
> the_name_I_really_want_to_call=transform(__f)
>
> work?
>
> It is not a destructive transform of __f, but why is that important?

This requires additional input if you want to have the correct __name__ 
attribute for the function. In your example 'transform' cannot no that 
the result will be bound to 'the_name_I_really_want_to_call'.   In 
PyObjC I use the __name__ to deduce information about the function 
(such as the Objective-C name for the function).

Another problem is that you only know the "real" name for the function 
some time after the function definition.

>
> What else am I missing?
>
> I thought I read the PyObjC folks saying that they saw use cases for a
> decorator syntax for their project - to be sure - but that was
> (mis)interpreted as meaning that they saw it as important for their 
> project,
> which they don't.
>
> I could be wrong in my interpretation here.

Decorators would make live a lot easier for us, but not having 
decorators won't kill PyObjC.

I would like to have decorators, but not at every cost. The 
@decorator-before-def proposal looks sane.

Ronald



From fperez528 at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 25 13:05:22 2004
From: fperez528 at yahoo.com (Fernando Perez)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:05:22 -0600
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgigsi$80l$1@peabody.colorado.edu>

Robert Brewer wrote:

> The J2 proposal is as complete as it will ever be.
> 
> http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html
> 
> The patch is nearly complete; only the __future__ declaration and some
> document tweaks remain. It should be updated on SourceForge today or
> tomorrow.
> 
> This is a call for all who wish to sign the proposal, either for,
> against, or abstaining. Please sign by either posting on
> comp.lang.python (replying to this is fine)

My signature : FOR

My Name: Fernando Perez.  Regular email: fperez AT colorado DOT edu

I am the author of IPython, one of the affected tools by the @proposal; IPython
was referenced in the J2 paper.  So I guess this is my 'official' stance on
the matter.  I like it for 2 reasons:

a) It will save me a bunch of silly work changing ipython (especially the
docs), and it will save my ipython users having to change their work habits.

b) I just like it; I think the paper authors did a fantastic job justifying the
idea with a set of very coherent reasons.  By now it's clear no syntax will be
deemed 'perfect' by everyone, but I found the arguments in the proposal clear,
intelligent and convincing enough to be happy going along.

Thanks to those who were willing to put enough effort to turn a potential
disaster for the language into a rational and productive discussion.

Best,

f


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug  9 09:12:14 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 09:12:14 -0400
Subject: Exceptions as a Control Structure
In-Reply-To: <411775aa$0$17867$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
References: <411775aa$0$17867$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <dOadnX1nRauy5YrcRVn-gw@powergate.ca>

Olivier Parisy wrote:
> I am new to Python (I just finished Guido's tutorial).
> I was very surprised to learn there that the StopIteration
> is used to end for loops in a standard iterator setting.
> 
> I come from C++, where the use of exceptions as control
> structures is frowned upon for efficiency reasons.

In Python, very little is frowned upon solely for efficiency
reasons.  There are some examples, including using +=
repeatedly to grow a string, and some fields where efficiency
is of course critical, but in Python one almost always looks
for the most pragmatic approach (which is often the most
elegant, too, for some people's definition of elegant)
rather than obsessing about speed.

> What is the Python canon on this topic ? 

The only Python "canon" can be found by typing "import this"
at the interpreter prompt. ;-)

> Are exceptions
> considered as reasonable control structures, or is
> StopIteration alone of its kind ?

Catching an exception is considered a reasonable approach
to flow control for various problems.  One, for example,
is in deeply nested loops, where rather than going out of
one's way to avoid exceptions in favour of a flag and lots
of awkward testing, one just raises a custom exception
(or perhaps a standard one) and catches it outside the
loops.

Exceptions are also used by some as a mechanism for
returning information from subroutines, though it's
very likely the information will still be considered
"exceptional" in some way (think of it as an out-of-band
mechanism for returning special info).

While some people object on stylistic grounds (or even
performance ones, in some cases) to such things, you
will likely find that exceptions are thrown around
by Python programmers more readily than you are used to.

Note also that in many cases other than algorithmic
complexity, what you have learned about efficiency in
C++ should be considered suspect info when it comes
to Python.  Function calls, for example, are much more
expensive in Python than in C++ because of the time
required to set up the call frame.  Exceptions, on the
other hand, are as I recall much more efficient.
Some Google Group searches in c.l.p would probably
lead to many past discussions of these things.

-Peter


From elbertlev at hotmail.com  Mon Aug  9 09:42:59 2004
From: elbertlev at hotmail.com (Elbert Lev)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 06:42:59 -0700
Subject: Komodo, debugging and multi-threading
References: <pan.2004.08.09.10.29.50.984382@it-snedkeren.BLACK_HOLE.dk>
Message-ID: <9418be08.0408090542.37e9113@posting.google.com>

Thomas Lindgaard <thomas at it-snedkeren.BLACK_HOLE.dk> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.08.09.10.29.50.984382 at it-snedkeren.BLACK_HOLE.dk>...
> Hello
> 
> I have a multi-threaded web spider and it has a problem (probably
> several). Is there a way to make the debugger show me what my worker
> threads are doing? I can only get it to follow the main thread. I'm using
> Komodo Personal (trial).

No! Komodo, IDE, IDLE all are wrappers for pdb.py, which does not
allow to set a brakpoint in thereads (it allows, but does not stop).
You can try it for yourself (using command line interpreter). The only
way of debugging multithreaded programs - print (or log).


From python-url at phaseit.net  Tue Aug 17 21:08:06 2004
From: python-url at phaseit.net (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 01:08:06 GMT
Subject: Dr. Dobb's Python-URL! - weekly Python news and links (Aug 18)
Message-ID: <cfu9df$1ei$1@lairds.us>

QOTW "Implementations are always preferred over rhetoric." - Robert Brewer

"The programmers you'll be able to hire to work on a Java project won't be
as smart as the ones you could get to work on a project written in Python." -
Paul Graham
    http://www.paulgraham.com/gh.html


    Colin J. Williams shows Mizrandir how to subclass numarray's arrays.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=df3955c3.0408140908.1b9bfb63%40posting.google.com
    
    Hoang Do receives various suggestions how to drop into the interpreter
    from a running script.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=mailman.1679.1092569474.5135.python-list%40python.org
    
    Kyle Root asks for help arranging a dependency tree of Python modules
    and receives both theoretical background information on the problem
    and code implementing a "topological sort".
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=6ccff37a.0408111831.6eb25a4e%40posting.google.com
    
    Timothy Fitz starts a discussion of the differences between Python's
    generators (an overwhelming success) and coroutines.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=972ec5bd.0408141032.385fe115%40posting.google.com
    
    Fazer learns that he has competition in the area of scripts
    that retrieve weather forecasts from the web.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=6491b0ab.0408121917.5103b770%40posting.google.com
    
    Coming from a C++ background, Olivier Parisy feels uneasy with the
    use of exceptions to control program flow in non-exceptional
    situations. Peter Hansen and several others tell him not to worry.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=411775aa%240%2417867%24626a14ce%40news.free.fr
    
    Roman Suzi has a clear vision of Python 3.0's design process in 2015.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=mailman.1672.1092553249.5135.python-list%40python.org
    
   We resist all urges to say more about decorators or white space. 
    
    
========================================================================
Everything Python-related you want is probably one or two clicks away in
these pages:

    Python.org's Python Language Website is the traditional
    center of Pythonia
        http://www.python.org
    Notice especially the master FAQ
        http://www.python.org/doc/FAQ.html

    PythonWare complements the digest you're reading with the
    marvelous daily python url
         http://www.pythonware.com/daily  
    Mygale is a news-gathering webcrawler that specializes in (new)
    World-Wide Web articles related to Python.
         http://www.awaretek.com/nowak/mygale.html 
    While cosmetically similar, Mygale and the Daily Python-URL
    are utterly different in their technologies and generally in
    their results.

    comp.lang.python.announce announces new Python software.  Be
    sure to scan this newsgroup weekly.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python.announce

    Brett Cannon continues the marvelous tradition established by 
    Andrew Kuchling and Michael Hudson of intelligently summarizing
    action on the python-dev mailing list once every other week.
	http://www.python.org/dev/summary/

    The Python Package Index catalogues packages.
        http://www.python.org/pypi/

    The somewhat older Vaults of Parnassus ambitiously collects references
    to all sorts of Python resources.
        http://www.vex.net/~x/parnassus/   

    Much of Python's real work takes place on Special-Interest Group
    mailing lists
        http://www.python.org/sigs/

    The Python Business Forum "further[s] the interests of companies
    that base their business on ... Python."
	http://www.python-in-business.org

    The Python Software Foundation (PSF) has replaced the Python
    Consortium as an independent nexus of activity.  It has official
    responsibility for Python's development and maintenance. 
        http://www.python.org/psf/
    Among the ways you can support PSF is with a donation.
        http://www.python.org/psf/donate.html

    Cetus collects Python hyperlinks.
        http://www.cetus-links.org/oo_python.html

    Python FAQTS
        http://python.faqts.com/

    The Cookbook is a collaborative effort to capture useful and
    interesting recipes.
	http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python

    Among several Python-oriented RSS/RDF feeds available are
	http://www.python.org/channews.rdf
	http://bootleg-rss.g-blog.net/pythonware_com_daily.pcgi
	http://python.de/backend.php
    For more, see
	http://www.syndic8.com/feedlist.php?ShowMatch=python&ShowStatus=all
    The old Python "To-Do List" now lives principally in a
    SourceForge reincarnation.
        http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?atid=355470&group_id=5470&func=browse
        http://python.sourceforge.net/peps/pep-0042.html
     
    The online Python Journal is posted at pythonjournal.cognizor.com.
    editor at pythonjournal.com and editor at pythonjournal.cognizor.com
    welcome submission of material that helps people's understanding
    of Python use, and offer Web presentation of your work.

    *Py: the Journal of the Python Language*
        http://www.pyzine.com

    Archive probing tricks of the trade:
        http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python&num=100
        http://groups.google.com/groups?meta=site%3Dgroups%26group%3Dcomp.lang.python.*

Previous - (U)se the (R)esource, (L)uke! - messages are listed here:
  http://www.ddj.com/topics/pythonurl/         
  http://purl.org/thecliff/python/url.html (dormant)
or
  http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_q=+Python-URL!&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python


Suggestions/corrections for next week's posting are always welcome.
E-mail to <Python-URL at phaseit.net> should get through.

To receive a new issue of this posting in e-mail each Monday morning
(approximately), ask <claird at phaseit.net> to subscribe.  Mention
"Python-URL!".


-- The Python-URL! Team--

Dr. Dobb's Journal (http://www.ddj.com) is pleased to participate in and
sponsor the "Python-URL!" project.




From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug 23 23:56:03 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 03:56:03 GMT
Subject: % format strings
References: <144d0df.0408231455.6b664466@posting.google.com>
	<412A76A7.4C87D17C@alcyone.com>
	<537ea4cd.0408231919.4ada3ca1@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <412abc53$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-24, ziller <ziller at gmail.com> wrote:

> I meant to say how does it translate the *.  Python lets you use a
> variable to specify the length of precision.
>
> int f_length = 5;
> float fl = 3.5
> printf("%.*f", f_length, fl);
>
> doesn't compile.

Of course not.  It's not valid C.  The following compiles just
fine:

#include <stdio.h>

int f_length = 5;
float fl = 3.5;

void foo(void)
{
  printf("%.*f",f_length, fl);
}

Not sure why you're asking C questions in c.l.p...



-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Excuse me, but didn't
                                  at               I tell you there's NO HOPE
                               visi.com            for the survival of OFFSET
                                                   PRINTING?


From daniel at syrinx.net  Fri Aug 13 08:04:38 2004
From: daniel at syrinx.net (Daniel Ellison)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 08:04:38 -0400
Subject: Flython?
In-Reply-To: <CISdnRTssu4zrYHcRVn-ow@powergate.ca>
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121608180.11006-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<CISdnRTssu4zrYHcRVn-ow@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <2o3ovjF6apnoU1@uni-berlin.de>

Peter Hansen wrote:

> Christopher T King wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Peter Hansen wrote:
>>
>>
>>> In the vein of Jython, I wonder what it would take to build
>>> a Flython?  (Lousy name, I know.)  That would take Python
>>> source, presumably a subset since some things couldn't be supported,
>>> and compile it into ActionScript bytecode (aka the bytecode compiled
>>> from ECMAScript source for the Macromedia Flash player environment).
>>
>>
>> I don't know much about ActionScript bytecode, but I think a general
>> Python -> ECMAScript translator wouldn't be too hard (presuming a Python
>> subset is acceptable).  ECMAScript variables are untyped, so that should
>> ease translation some.  Sounds like my weekend project!
> 
> 
> Well, it's not the source code that I care about, it's the
> object code (as in, the Flash bytecode).  The only ECMAScript
> to Flash bytecode compilers of which I'm aware are
> commercial and expensive, and come with big useless (to me)
> GUI/animation/freaky special effect generation systems...
> 
> There are advantages in Python direct to Flash bytecode with
> a simple command line compiler (particularly if one uses
> test-driven development...).
> 
> This may be where I have to dig into an area that's outside
> my expertise, namely the compiler.py module, parse trees,
> and code generation...
> 
> -Peter

I have to agree that Python compiled to swf bytecode would be very handy 
indeed. I'm no fan of HTML-based web applications, but there are 
currently few alternatives. Flash could be an excellent alternative, but 
few developers want to take the time to learn (and purchase!) the Flash 
authoring application to create a better web GUI.

I *like* "Flython" as a name! :) A flying python! I can see the logo now...

Dan Ellison


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Fri Aug 20 11:10:52 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:10:52 GMT
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
References: <mailman.1991.1092960665.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-4FE900.21540719082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.2020.1092995114.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <3e4ci0tcavl5qe34l9bak2h1bl2hmqaqb6@4ax.com>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 05:45:11 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Roy Smith wrote:
>> 
>> I never quite understood the point of static methods inside classes.  
>> When would you ever need to do that, as opposed to just a function in a 
>> module?  In Java's "everything is part of a class" philosophy, it makes 
>> sense, but in Python?
>
>It gives us another means of managing namespaces.  Rather than having to 
>create a top-level function in the current (or some other) module, we 
>can group it with other related functions as a method in a class.

"Another" means Precisely. It is not, however, the embedded means.
And though the language provides this flexibility, one pays a small
penalty. Some typing and a loss of readibility/elegance - whatever you
might want to call it. 

Heh. The trade-offs are clear and the decision is in the hands o f the
developer.

Which is kinda typical of the kinds of decision one expects to face,
as a developer. No?

What, again , is the problem?

Art 


From John.Marshall at ec.gc.ca  Wed Aug 11 11:16:57 2004
From: John.Marshall at ec.gc.ca (John Marshall)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 15:16:57 +0000
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
Message-ID: <1092237417.22674.12.camel@mango.cmc.ec.gc.ca>

How about the following, which I am almost positive
has not been suggested:
-----
class Klass:
    def __init__(self, name):
        self.name = name

    deco meth0:
        staticmethod
    def meth0(x):
        return x
    
    deco meth1:
        classmethod
    def meth1(cls):
        return cls

    deco sayhello:
        funcattrs(name='GvR', language='python')
        log(file='func.log')
    def sayhello(self):
        print 'hello python world'

-----
1) The decorators clearly apply to a specific method/function,
   therefore there is no need to do any stack pushing in memory
   until the method/function definition is done.
2) The decorators are "outside" of the method/function they
   decorate:
   a) which will please those who want the outside location
   b) will not be folded within the function
   c) folding on the decorators can be done so that the
      def is not obfuscated
   d) can be located anywhere in the code--but most likely
      before the "def ...()"
3) The sequence in which the decorators are applied is just
   like code would be--this is certainly intuitive given
   that we are writing code.

This approach could also be applied to classes in case
decorators should ever be extended to them:
-----
deco Klass:
    doc("This is a class to ...")
class Klass:
    :
    :
-----

Any comments?

John



From mattduke at ugcs.caltech.edu  Fri Aug 27 14:00:44 2004
From: mattduke at ugcs.caltech.edu (Matt Doucleff)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 11:00:44 -0700
Subject: tarfile's tar.extractfile() file-like object incompatible with
	pickle.load()?
References: <3e6d6c21.0408261043.264c3a2d@posting.google.com>
	<1093572564.733113@news.commspeed.net>
Message-ID: <3e6d6c21.0408271000.6007a361@posting.google.com>

"Tom B." <sbabbitt at commspeed.net> wrote in message news:<1093572564.733113 at news.commspeed.net>...
> "Matt Doucleff" <mattduke at ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message
> news:3e6d6c21.0408261043.264c3a2d at posting.google.com...
> > Hi everyone!  I must be doing something wrong here :)  I have a
> > tarball that contains a single file whose contents are a pickled
> > object.  I would like to unpickle the object directly from the tarball
> > using the file-like object provided by extractfile().  Attempts to do
> > this result in EOFError.  However if I first extract to a temporary
> > file, then unpickle from there, it works.  The below code reproduces
> > the problem (on my machine at least).  I'm running Python 2.3.4,
> > manually installed on Debian Woody (original python removed).  Thanks!
> >
> > This sample code creates (and then removes) files in the tmp directory
> > and in the current working directory.
> >
> > # demonstrates extractfile/unpickle failure (bug?)
> >
> > # pickle a dict to a temp file
> > # create tar file, add temp file to it, close tar file
> > # open tar file for reading
> > # obtain file-like object for pickled file using extractfile()
> > # attempt to unpickle dict from file-like object
> > # fails with EOFError exception
> >
> > import tarfile
> > import pickle
> > import tempfile
> > import os
> >
> > if __name__ == '__main__':
> >     try:
> >         hashtopickle = { 'a' : 1, 'b' : 2 }
> >
> >         # pickle to temp file
> >         (fd, tmpfilename) = tempfile.mkstemp()
> >         tmpfile = os.fdopen(fd, 'w')
> >         pickle.dump(hashtopickle, tmpfile)
> >         tmpfile.close()
> >
> >         # create tar; add temp file
> >         tar = tarfile.open('tarpickle.tar', 'w')
> >         tar.add(tmpfilename, 'pickledhash')
> >         tar.close()
> >
> >         # remove temp file
> >         os.remove(tmpfilename)
> >
> >         # open tarfile for reading, get filelike
> >         tar = tarfile.open('tarpickle.tar', 'r')

> >         filelike = tar.extractfile('pickledhash')
> >
> >         # fails
> >         hashcopy = pickle.load(filelike)
> >
> >     finally:
> >         # cleanup
> >         os.remove('tarpickle.tar')
> 
> It occurs to me that you need to do,
> 
>  hashcopy = pickle.loads(filelike)
> 
> if filelike is a string.
> 
> Tom
> P.S. have a look at pickle.dumps()

The tarfile.extractfile() method does not read the contents
of the encapsulated file into a string, but constructs a new
object that implements file operations (it is like a file)
and is intended to be used as if you had simply opened the
tar-encapsulated file directly.

    Matt


From donn at u.washington.edu  Mon Aug  9 17:00:50 2004
From: donn at u.washington.edu (Donn Cave)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:00:50 -0700
Subject: os.system prob
References: <mailman.1412.1092079959.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <donn-873B10.14005009082004@gnus01.u.washington.edu>

In article <mailman.1412.1092079959.5135.python-list at python.org>,
 Aaron Barclay <aaronb at jhcs.co.uk> wrote:

> I am trying to send some commands via os.system but am getting tripped 
> up by it stripping out the quote marks. I have:

Quoting can be tricky, when you have multiple layers of
interpretation - python, shell, etc.  You can probably
figure it out with some experimentation, but if possible
it's better to avoid the problem.  Use os.spawnv - like,

  os.spawnv(os.P_WAIT, '/usr/local/bin/whatever',
           ['whatever', 'parameter one'])

This invokes the command directly, so there's no shell
command line parsing.

   Donn Cave, donn at u.washington.edu


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Wed Aug 11 08:31:53 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:31:53 -0400
Subject: Getting the docstring of a property
References: <mailman.1493.1092226382.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10hk4dhcaftsgcf@news.supernews.com>


"Andrew Durdin" <adurdin at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1493.1092226382.5135.python-list at python.org...
> How do you get the docstring of a property? Suppose I have the following:
>
> class Foo:
>     def _prop_get(self):
>         return 1
>     prop = property(_prop_get, doc="This is the docstring")
>
> foo = Foo()
> print foo.prop
> print foo.prop.__doc__
>
> This will display "1", followed by the docstring for an integer (which
> is the docstring for the int() function). How can I get the property's
> docstring as defined in the property() function?

You tried to access it from the instance. However, accessing it from the
instance invoked the property, returning 1, before it attempted to
access the docstring.

You need to get it from the class. That is:

Foo.prop.__doc__

should do what you want.

John Roth




From konsumer at toughtechs.com  Mon Aug 23 12:20:17 2004
From: konsumer at toughtechs.com (David Konsumer)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 09:20:17 -0700
Subject: Class or Modules?
Message-ID: <1093278017.19803.19.camel@gir>

I'm writing a game to learn more about python, and I've done a little
bit of programming in puthon so far, that were very small projects
(single source file) shell scripts, little gui's, and the like. Now that
I'm working on something larger, I'm not sure how to go about it.

My question is: Which should I use for multiple source files in a large
project, classes or modules?

Here is an example of my sturcture

main
  input
  video

input and video need to get/set data from the others that needs to be
persistant (like if I set video.x in main or video, input needs to see
it the same way) and run functions from the others.

So the way I tried to achieve this uses classes (which I'm fairly sure
is BAD, it just doesn't seem right) was this:

import input,video,events,gui,gameplay,player
class main:
  def __init(self)__:
    input=input.Input(self)
    video=video.Video(self)
    (more like that)

and then in other files:

class input:
  def __init__(self,engine):
    self.engine=engine

class Video:
  def __init__(self,engine):
    self.engine=engine

(more like that)

Is there a better way to do this?



From lbates at swamisoft.com  Mon Aug 23 15:09:15 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:09:15 -0500
Subject: function taking scalar or list argument
References: <412a2bce$1_1@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <9ZCdnT9EuudK3bfcRVn-tA@comcast.com>

You may want to take a look at isinstance() function.

def twice(x):
    if isinstance(x, list): return map(twice, x)
    if isinstance(x, (int, float, str)): return 2*x
    return None

print twice(3) # 6
print twice([1,4,9]) # [2,8,18]
print twice('*')

HTH,
Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.

"beliavsky at aol.com" <beliavsky at 127.0.0.1:7501> wrote in message
news:412a2bce$1_1 at 127.0.0.1...
>
> I can define a function that transforms either a scalar or each element in
> a list as follows:
>
> def twice(x):
>     try:
>         return map(twice,x)
>     except:
>         return 2*x
>
> print twice(3) # 6
> print twice([1,4,9]) # [2,8,18]
>
> Is this good style? I intend to define many functions like this and want
> to use the right method. Thanks.
>
>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
> http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000
Newsgroups
> ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption
=---




From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 28 06:15:24 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:15:24 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<tyf3c28ps1t.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
	<1ry8k0d2az.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<10iv0kid2ig9ka6@corp.supernews.com>
	<1rpt5ccbso.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<10ivpk9inpnh65@corp.supernews.com>
	<1rd61bd26k.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <1gj892g.1hlc8ar1po78b6N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no> wrote:
   ...
> code I read can be using "#fi", "# end if", "# }", "pass" or nothing.
> sure, I can write a tool to enforce a single coding standard for my
> project, but external code will naturally not comply.  that's why I
   ...
> my hope is that my solution can be ignored by those who don't need it,
> and used by those who like it.

Unfortunately, if you make it optional, "external code will naturally
not comply" still applies.  Either for your solution or for any of those
you list above, you need in any case a simple tool that will take
noncomplying (but otherwise assumed to be correct) code and insert the
terminators.  Given that you need this tool, why not also have the tool
able to CHECK that a module complies?  This way you don't need to change
Python to give a syntax error for non compliance.

Best of all, the hypothetical tool almost exists, you have it:

...whereveryoukeeppython.../Tools/scripts/pindent.py

It uses the '# end if' style, but you could alter that in your copy.
The 'almost' is because I don't think it has the 'just check and tell me
if something wrong' functionality -- it's just able to insert or remove
the terminators into/from an otherwise correct source, and to fix up
indents in a source file which has proper terminators -- from the
latter, a switch to have it just check shouldn't be hard to add (exit
with error indicator if any fixup would be needed, say).


Once you have scripts that do whatever checking you wish and have a
uniform specified way to signal errors, you could think of a general and
truly useful addition to Python: a commandline switch (ideally settable
as a sys. attribute at runtime too) that makes it run checking scripts
automatically as part of the compilation process when it imports any
source (.py) file.  This would put pay to the problem common to all
"offline" checkers -- "the checker would have diagnosed the problem but
I did not run it".  You could run pindent, pychecker, unit tests,
_whatever_ -- possibly at the price of slowing down imports of newly
edited sources, but that depends on how thoroughly you want to check,
only.  What we need, I think, are good conventions to determine what to
run on the source (before compilation), what on the bytecode (right
after compilation, or possibly even, every time, even when importing a
bytecode .pyc file), how a checker lets Python know about problems, how
Python in turn diagnoses them to the user.

Hmmm -- I'm thinking that the existing import hooks might be enough to
let one prototype this "automatic checking" functionality, not quite as
smoothly as a fully architected system maybe, but enough to get some
early adopters, shake out teething problems, build a constituency to
lobby for smoother integration in a future Python version...


Alex


From Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com  Mon Aug  9 13:02:18 2004
From: Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com (Ames Andreas (MPA/DF))
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 19:02:18 +0200
Subject: Queue qsize = unreliable?
Message-ID: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA22@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>

Dave Brueck wrote:

> But is it blocking in any way that you (the caller) will likely
> notice? (probably not - the mutex is held for a relatively short

How I notice a blocking function?

1) As a programmer:  I have to read the docs and unfortunately all too
   often the code.

2) As a "caller":  I'm wasting time when blocking without a reason.

> period of time. Note also that the mutex that gets acquired is not
> the "main" mutex of the Queue.)

In CVS it acquires the only lock that is there, in the 2.3 version and
below it acquires the mutex, that I'd call the "main" one, just after
checking (by a non-blocking acquiration of esema) if the Queue is
empty.

>> With CPython's assertions about atomicity of certain list
>> operations it's possible to implement a lock free queue that is
>> even usable for the single producer or single consumer case.
>
> If you have the single producer and/or single consumer case, you
> don't need a Queue at all - just use a built-in list (or in 2.4 a
> collections.deque object).

I think I didn't make my point clear enough.  The most important word
in the above paragraph was "usable", which means more to me than just
thread-safe.  I'd be interested in a usable (i. e. non-polling)
implementation of a queue without any locks.

>> if !q.empty():
>>    reliableCode()
>> else
>>    unreliableCode()
>> should be absolutely okay.
>
> It'd probably _work_, yes, but would it offer any real advantage? On
> that particular mutex, there's almost never any contention at all -
> *especially* in e.g. the single consumer case. And, even if there is
> some contention, it is acquired for an extremely short amount of
> time (relatively speaking) - which is why the caller is not likely
> to notice that any locking is going on under the covers. The cost of
> having both reliableCode and unreliableCode paths seems to outweigh
> any potential advantage IMO.

I just included the "else" branch to make clear that only one of
empty's two possible outcomes is reliable.  It makes much more sense
and it is much closer to my specific application to write:

while !q.empty():
      doSomethingToTheWorkersOutput()

When leaving this loop I'll go back to sleep on select.

As to the "extremely short amount of time (relatively speaking)":  I'm
still very impressed by Dan Kegel's c10k paper.  And following that
one I'm not so much concerned about the amount of time that a producer
may hold the lock (that time may very well be ignorable), when the
single consumer tries to acquire it, but much more about the fact that
it potentially needs at least *two* context switches per iteration
until the one thread that feeds all others and thus that all others
depend upon gets back to work.


cheers,

andreas



From DrColombes at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 17 12:29:11 2004
From: DrColombes at yahoo.com (Dr. Colombes)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 09:29:11 -0700
Subject: Plotting over MapPoint maps
Message-ID: <d1f3d1d3.0408170700.1c2e4a95@posting.google.com>

Can anyone offer pointers, suggestions on how to overlay coordinate
(Lat, Long)-based MatPlotLib graphics over a MapPoint map ?

Thank you for your help.


From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Aug 18 14:52:20 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (simo)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 11:52:20 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <mailman.1859.1092833285.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <30260531.0408181052.31bc054b@posting.google.com>

26, been Python'ing for 2 years or so.

Started programming at about 7 with BBC BASIC IV


From manuelbastioniNOSPAM at tin.it  Sun Aug 29 11:10:44 2004
From: manuelbastioniNOSPAM at tin.it (manuel)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 15:10:44 GMT
Subject: possible python bug here
Message-ID: <UlmYc.210493$5D1.9792439@news4.tin.it>

In the sample below, the foo function modify the b list,
but I think it should modify only c, not b! It work
correctly if if b is one dimension list instead two.

def foo(aList):
     print "use foo..."
     aList[2][0] += .35
     aList[2][1] += .35
     aList[2][2] += .35

p = [2.5,2.5,2.5]
b = [p,p,p,p]

c=b[:] #c is a totally new list cloned from b, it's not an alias!

print "b = ",b[2]

foo(c) #The argument is c, not b! Why b is modified too?

print "b = ", b[2]# after foo(c), the list b now is different!


From gj_carman at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 28 16:47:07 2004
From: gj_carman at hotmail.com (George Carman)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 13:47:07 -0700
Subject: IDLE does not start on WinXP
Message-ID: <BAY24-F34ZcsHGuGxPY0002469e@hotmail.com>

Please excuse the following mailing, I do not have access to a news server 
and cannot post to comp.lang.python.

I recently installed Python 2.3.4 on WinXP.  Command line interpreter works 
fine but the IDLE GUI will not start.  When run from a commandline I get the 
following traceback.  Both WinXP and McAfee firewalls are disabled.  Any 
suggestions would be appreciated.

C:\Python23\Lib\idlelib>idle.py
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "C:\Python23\Lib\idlelib\idle.py", line 23, in ?
    idlelib.PyShell.main()
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\PyShell.py", line 1282, in main
    flist.pyshell = PyShell(flist)
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\PyShell.py", line 764, in __init__
    self.interp.start_subprocess()
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\PyShell.py", line 364, in start_subprocess
    self.transfer_path()
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\PyShell.py", line 433, in transfer_path
    self.runcommand("""if 1:
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\PyShell.py", line 650, in runcommand
    self.rpcclt.remotequeue("exec", "runcode", (code,), {})
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\rpc.py", line 214, in remotequeue
    return self.asyncreturn(seq)
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\rpc.py", line 238, in asyncreturn
    response = self.getresponse(seq, wait=0.05)
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\rpc.py", line 278, in getresponse
    response = self._getresponse(myseq, wait)
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\rpc.py", line 298, in _getresponse
    response = self.pollresponse(myseq, wait)
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\rpc.py", line 423, in pollresponse
    message = self.pollmessage(wait)
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\rpc.py", line 375, in pollmessage
    packet = self.pollpacket(wait)
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\rpc.py", line 347, in pollpacket
    if not self.ioready(wait):
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\rpc.py", line 337, in ioready
    r, w, x = select.select([self.sock.fileno()], [], [], wait)
select.error: (10022, 'An invalid argument was supplied')

_________________________________________________________________
Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/



From xtian at toysinabag.com  Mon Aug  9 00:41:06 2004
From: xtian at toysinabag.com (xtian)
Date: 8 Aug 2004 21:41:06 -0700
Subject: Does python support multi prototype.
References: <2natmnFv86rjU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<w54Qc.29647$OH4.805468@twister1.libero.it>
Message-ID: <d111eafa.0408082041.7b36e5a9@posting.google.com>

Matteo Dell'Amico <della at toglimi.linux.it> wrote in message news:<w54Qc.29647$OH4.805468 at twister1.libero.it>...
> angel wrote:
> > Java and cpp support one function name multi function prototype.
>  [...]
> > Does python support it?
> 
> Not natively, but - if you really need them - there are modules that 
> make them possible.
> 
> Have a look at 
> http://gnosis.cx/publish/programming/charming_python_b12.html , and 
> maybe at 
> http://codespeak.net/pypy/index.cgi?doc/objspace/multimethod.html too.

One thing to note is that these Lisp-ish multimethods are more
powerful than Java- or C#-style method overloading, because the method
dispatch is done at runtime using the actual types of the arguments.
In Java and C# overload selection is done at compile time, so if
you've got, frex:

public class Thing {
    public void DoSomething(Integer val) {
        ...
    }

    public void DoSomething(String val) {
        ...
    }

    public void DoSomething(Object val) {
        ...
    }
}


[and then]

Object o = "fish";
Thing t = new Thing();
t.DoSomething(o);

... you'll always get the object version of DoSomething called,
because the declared type of o is Object.

Which always annoyed me.

xtian


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Sun Aug 15 10:04:18 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 00:04:18 +1000
Subject: xml namespace error
Message-ID: <1092578658.411f6d62099aa@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

i have the following code to create a a document
ssock = StringIO.StringIO(inputString)
reader = Sax2.Reader()
doc = reader.fromStream(ssock)

input string simply contains <appel:RULE></appel:RULE>
when i run it, it throws a namespace error. i can understand where the
error is coming from (i haven't defined the namespace), but is there a way
to get past it? to get it to ignore the namespace?
the same thing in Java works fine (without worrying about the namespace).

thanks

cheers




----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From andy at andybak.net  Tue Aug  3 07:26:15 2004
From: andy at andybak.net (Andy Baker)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:26:15 +0100
Subject: Reasoning behind nested scope
Message-ID: <20040803112624.2CCBD1E4002@bag.python.org>

Hi there,

I'm learning Python at the moment and trying to grok the thinking behind
it's scoping and nesting rules. 

I was googling for nested functions and found this Guido quote:
(http://www.python.org/search/hypermail/python-1993/0343.html)

"This is because nested function definitions don't have access to the
local variables of the surrounding block -- only to the globals of the
containing module. This is done so that lookup of globals doesn't
have to walk a chain of dictionaries -- as in C, there are just two
nested scopes: locals and globals (and beyond this, built-ins).
Therefore, nested functions have only a limited use. This was a
deliberate decision, based upon experience with languages allowing
arbitraries nesting such as Pascal and both Algols -- code with too
many nested scopes is about as readable as code with too many GOTOs.
And, of course, in Python, the "proper" way is to use an
object-oriented programming style"

This sounds reasonable to me although nested scope always struck me as more
natural and intuitive ('Don't be surprising')

I was wondering how the balance changed in favour of nested scope? What
changed people's minds about 'readability' vs other factors? Are nested
scopes still regarded as leading to spagetti code etc?

(On a side note is there any way to call a nested function from outside the
parent? I was kind of expecting nested functions to be addressable through
dot notation like methods are but I can see why that wouldn't be quite
right. This might be a better question for the tutor list...)

Andy Baker



From charlie at iwec.com  Thu Aug 19 12:45:49 2004
From: charlie at iwec.com (Charlie Taylor)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:45:49 -0700
Subject: python cgi speedup on iis
Message-ID: <S.0002527306@mail1.iwec.com>

I'm looking for advice on how to speed up python cgi on Windows IIS without
going to an application server like Zope/WebWare/CherryPy/etc (i.e. I have
existing cgi scripts).

mod_python seems like a good solution for Apache, is there something
comparable for IIS?

I notice that ASP scripts run an asp.dll which I believe becomes memory
resident to speed up VBScript execution.

Is there any work on a python.dll anywhere?

Thanks,
ct



From davZZZYYYXXXout at dial.pipex.com  Wed Aug  4 13:25:37 2004
From: davZZZYYYXXXout at dial.pipex.com (davout)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 18:25:37 +0100
Subject: web resources to explain why Python is best?
Message-ID: <41111c24$0$26982$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com>

Can anybody point me at some web resources that explain why Python is better
than Perl, TCL, Ruby etc?






From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 10:07:25 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:07:25 -0400
Subject: Knowing a COMObject by IID
In-Reply-To: <daf62359.0408160551.21eec6d2@posting.google.com>
References: <daf62359.0408160551.21eec6d2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <8tSdnYPuvsYDIr3cRVn-vA@powergate.ca>

Mauro Baraldi wrote:

> Someone can helpe-me how to get the name of a COMObject by it CLSID.
> 
> Example: 
> A object got a number CLSID ({CA8A9783-280D-11CF-A24D-444553540000}).
> It name is Acrobat Control for ActiveX.
> 
> Or where can I found a good reference for this...

The most direct method is to use "regedit" to search for it
in your registry.  You can find it under HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\CLSID
and the name will be under the default key for the entry.

But I suspect you wanted to do this programmatically...
and I don't know the API you would use.

-Peter


From russelllear at earthlink.net  Fri Aug 20 11:55:09 2004
From: russelllear at earthlink.net (Russell Lear)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:55:09 GMT
Subject: Access to Oracle
References: <mailman.1856.1092831836.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <x9pVc.28656$9Y6.4787@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>


I'm using cx_Oracle on Windows XP to communicate with 9i.  Works quite
nicely.  One nice thing is that, by being careful with the design (esp. the
SQL generation), I'm able to bring the application to a PostgreSQL machine
running Linux and things still work!  But that's a little off-topic.

Russell.





From yaoroland07 at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 19 11:03:06 2004
From: yaoroland07 at yahoo.com (Roland)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 08:03:06 -0700
Subject: Tkinter
Message-ID: <8e16829.0408190703.1c6845d7@posting.google.com>

Salut,


      J'utilise LNUX RedHat 9.0 et je n'arrive pas ? utilser Tkinter
car ? chaque fois que j'essaye de faire executer un code dans lequel
j'ai import? le module Tkinter, j'obtient:
                     from tkinter import*
                     ImportError: No module named tkinter  .
Je croyais que ce module ?tait int?gr? ? python.
            AIDEZ-MOI
 Merci


From avner at skilldesign.com  Wed Aug 25 13:43:07 2004
From: avner at skilldesign.com (Avner Ben)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:43:07 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <412cc31c$1@news.012.net.il>

I believe putting the decorator list before the function header is 
generally a bad design decision. While it may make parsing-related 
sense, it violates Python's greatest asset: being executable pseudocode. 
The way I see it, the latter quality means being able to look at the 
code and see clearly and immediately what requirements from the real 
world the code was written the serve. Functions and methods are major 
code entities that are naturally expected to represent discrete 
functional requirements from the code, to this or that level of detail. 
I expect to learn from the method name, the class it is in and the list 
of arguments it takes, everything I need to know about the functional 
requirement it implements. If that is not enough, I will look at the 
docstring, if present. Everything else the method has to offer is 
conveniently hidden below. Decorators of the type discussed recently - 
with the exception of staticmethod and classmethod - are technical 
detail of the kind I would like to see hidden below. Putting them on 
top, prior to the what the method does (its name etc.) compromises the 
design quality of the code, reducing it to yet another 
abbreviation-based, self-centered technical scripting language.
The one esception I saw was J2, which, although putting the decorators 
before the proper method header, uses indentation to state "this is an 
extra piece of technicality which you are free to ignore - the def is 
below."

My vote: C2, E4, J2

	Avner.


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 25 07:20:17 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 07:20:17 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>
	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <cghslg$lao$1@sea.gmane.org>

Steven Bethard wrote:
> Paul Morrow <pm_mon <at> yahoo.com> writes:
> 
>>I believe that (virtually) all __xxx__ attributes have this metadata 
>>aspect (semantics) to them.  When a programmer says
>>
>>    def foo():
>>        __author__ = 'Wilma Flintstone'
>>        __version__ = '0.1'
>>
>>She does not intend for __author__ nor __version__ to be local variables 
>>of foo, used somehow by foo in the calculation of its return value.  To 
>>her they are foo /metadata/ --- attributes of the foo object itself --- 
>>as they contain information that *describes* foo.
> 
> 
> I assume you mean that this is what you'd like a programmer to intend?  If I 
> wrote that, I would intend (and expect) __author__ to be a local variable.  
> I'm not saying that I couldn't be retrained.  I'm just saying that right now, 
> I would not expect it to be otherwise.
> 

What I mean is that this is what (I believe) veteran Python programmers 
always intend, because it's a Python convention (although I've never 
actually seen it described quite like this --- as metadata).

Here's what PEP 8 (http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0008.html) has to say 
about __xxx__ attributes:

       __double_leading_and_trailing_underscore__: "magic" objects or
       attributes that live in user-controlled namespaces,
       e.g. __init__, __import__ or __file__.  Sometimes these are
       defined by the user to trigger certain magic behavior
       (e.g. operator overloading); sometimes these are inserted by the
       infrastructure for its own use or for debugging purposes.  Since
       the infrastructure (loosely defined as the Python interpreter
       and the standard library) may decide to grow its list of magic
       attributes in future versions, user code should generally
       refrain from using this convention for its own use.  User code
       that aspires to become part of the infrastructure could combine
       this with a short prefix inside the underscores,
       e.g. __bobo_magic_attr__.


Here's a link that gives some examples of them: 
http://cardboard.nu/blog/2003_09_18/module_level_magic_variables.html)

Sure veterans know that if it looks like a local variable definition, 
then it is one.  But my point is that (IMO) they don't normally rely on 
that aspect of __xxx__ variables.  You'll almost never see a function 
that examines its own metadata in the computation of its result.


> 
>>Likewise, when she defines __lt__, __getitem__, __init__, etc. as part 
>>of a class, they will not typically be called by methods of the class or 
>>users/consumers/clients of the class [*] the way that 'normal' 
>>attributes will.  They contain meta info that describes a deeper level 
>>of class behavior.
> 
> 
> This seems a little misleading to me.  The only reason these methods are 
> special is because they override operators (something like "<", "[]", and "()" 
> respectively).  You could provide a class with /exactly/ the same 
> functionality without ever implementing any of these methods.  (Well, minus 
> __init__, but that was a special case in your discussion too.)  The only thing 
> that implementing these methods does is allows your user to access these 
> methods through an operator shorthand.  A simple example:
> 
> class Identity:
>     def get(self, x):
>         return x
>     __getitem__ = get
> 
> How is __getitem__ any more "metadata" then get is?  They provide exactly the 
> same functionality.  The __getitem__ declaration just allows you to access the 
> get method using "[...]".
> 

Well, but that's a big difference.  __getitem__ has a much deeper 
meaning than your 'get'.  Defining it actually changes which syntax 
you're allowed to use on instances of your class.  Now you can do things 
like...

    ident = Identity()
    print "%(alpha)s, %(beta)s, %(gamma)s" % ident


> Are you trying to say that "metadata" is the same thing as "operator shortcut"?
> 

Not exactly, but it would include defining those.  One way to think 
about metadata is that it includes all information *about* an object, 
but no information *used by* the object.

If we were to have a conversation about this conversation, then we would 
be having a "meta-conversation."  /metadata/ is data that describes 
data.  metadata for a function would be data that describes the 
function; data *about* the function as opposed to data *used by* the 
function.  For example:

    def circumference(diameter):
       """ This is a docstring.  It's metadata for this function. """
       __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'      # more metadata
       pi = 3.14                       # not metadata
       return pi * diameter



Paul



From olli at haluter.fromme.com  Mon Aug 23 10:27:21 2004
From: olli at haluter.fromme.com (Oliver Fromme)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 14:27:21 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<fFzVc.56995$TI1.52506@attbi_s52>
	<ibednRLmoMpsVbvcRVn-oA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <2oud69Fer8aiU1@uni-berlin.de>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
 > Bryan wrote:
 > > i'm 37... started programing on a TRS-80 Model I and III.  i also did a 
 > > bit a programming on a VIC-20... brownie points for anyone who can 
 > > remember how many text characters there was in one row... 
 > 
 > 23!  ... freakin' weird little machine that was... :-)

It was 22 characters per row, and 23 rows on the screen.
The little thing didn't even have a graphics mode, though
you could fake it by modifying the pixel definition of the
character set.

I used to have a VIC-20 with a 40 Kbyte (not Mbyte) memory
extension.  Those 40 Kbyte costed 200 DEM at that time;
roughly 100 $US.  I don't dare to calculate the price
factor relative to today's RAM modules ...

Of course, I used the built-in BASIC, and very soon also
used 6502 machine code.  Yes, machine code, no assembly
language, not even a hex monitor.  I wrote the instructions
on paper, then looked up the opcodes in a 6502 CPU table,
then converted the hex/binary numbers back to decimal and
entered them into BASIC "data" statements.  If the CPU
hung when running it, reboot (which took only 2 seconds)
and re-check the paper work ...  Oh joy.

I could go on writing memories for hours, but I'll stop
here because it's completely off-topic already.  :-)

Now, 20 years later, Python is my language of choice.
If it just supported strong typing, it would be perfect.

Best regards
   Oliver

-- 
Oliver Fromme, Konrad-Celtis-Str. 72, 81369 Munich, Germany

``All that we see or seem is just a dream within a dream.''
(E. A. Poe)


From nicksjacobson at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 25 16:07:20 2004
From: nicksjacobson at yahoo.com (Nick Jacobson)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 13:07:20 -0700
Subject: Enumerate object is destroyed by casting?
Message-ID: <f8097096.0408251207.1e8f633e@posting.google.com>

Casting an 'enumerate' object destroys it??  Is that supposed to
happen, or is it a bug?


For example:
a = ['a', 'b', 'c']
e = enumerate(a)
print dict(e)
print dict(e)


Result:
{0: 'a', 1: 'b', 2: 'c'}
{}


From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Thu Aug 19 15:54:29 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:54:29 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <10ia1a9jm9tkuca@corp.supernews.com>

Paul McGuire wrote:

>I think special thanks are due to:
>- Anthony Baxter for his continuing efforts in this regard
>- Steven Bethard for some of the clearest thinking and writing on this topic
>- Michael Sparks for actually implementing one of the options
>  
>

I'd definitely second these special thanks. 

>I would propose a multivote survey: each poster gets 3 votes among the
>lettered choices on the Wiki page above.  You can use all 3 for a single
>option, or split them across 2 or 3 options if you are open to more than
>one.
>  
>

This seems like a fairly reasonable way of at least getting an 
estimation of concensus.  I'd also suggest that, if there's a large 
number of votes distributed between minor variations on a theme (i.e. 
they differ as to what character/keyword to use), that might be 
considered as a sum.  If, for example, E1 and E2 are the second and 
third most popular choices, with a total that's higher than that of the 
most popular choice, it seems reasonable to me to consider them to be 
the "winner" and to then discuss which character is preferred.  This is 
hard to codify, however, as some of the numbered variants are 
significantly different while others are only slightly different...

My votes:  J2   J2  E2

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 00:10:12 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 14:10:12 +1000
Subject: Confused about pep 318
In-Reply-To: <ceuup1$qm$1@panix3.panix.com>
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1223.1091728969.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<10h4vhcfbsv6t30@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1241.1091758030.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ceuup1$qm$1@panix3.panix.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040805211022762925@mail.gmail.com>

On 5 Aug 2004 23:43:29 -0400, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> Also, there has historically been an expectation that PEPs will be
> posted to comp.lang.python in their final draft form; 

That's news to me, although I think it's probably a good idea.

> while I agree with
> you that python-dev is a public forum, I think the outrage expressed by
> those who believed that they didn't *NEED* to monitor python-dev is
> entirely understandable.

I'm not sure what additional benefits would have come from some more
advance notice of this to c.l.py, in addition to python-list. 

I don't think the outrage would have been any less from the people 
who _really_ don't like the feature. The folks who just don't think 
decorators belong in the language, in any form, can hardly have 
missed the frequent mentions in Brett's python-dev summaries.

Additionally, anyone who has a great alternative still has time to get 
their idea in instead of the @syntax. If anything, the availability of the 
current form in a released (alpha) of Python makes it easier for people 
to actually play with it and see what they think - this is something that's
much harder to do from a proposal.


From jimcser at pacifier.com  Tue Aug 17 15:52:29 2004
From: jimcser at pacifier.com (Jim Cser)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 12:52:29 -0700
Subject: Numarray: Using sum() within functions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408161336030.13512-100000@ccc3.wpi.edu>
References: <10hsvoka533ci3c@corp.supernews.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408161336030.13512-100000@ccc3.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <10i4ofuc7dp3571@corp.supernews.com>


>>I have a function to generate a multi-dimensional array, which then
>>gets summed over one axis.  The problem is that the dimensions
>>are large, and I run out of memory when I create the entire array,
>>so I'm trying to do the sum *within* the function.
>>
>>Example-- variables x,y,z,t; dimensions numX, numY, numZ, numT;
>>functions f1(x,y,z,t), f2(y,z,t);  want to calculate f1*f2 and
>>sum over t to get out[x,y,z].
> 


Cobbling together a number of suggestions, what finally worked was--

def f3(x, y, z, t_range=arange(numT)):
    tempval = 0.* x
    for t in t_range:
      tempval += f1(x,y,z,t) + f2(y,z,t)
    return tempval

out = fromfunction(f3,(numX,numY,numZ,1))


I couldn't quite get sum() to work inside the function, but this
is definitely good enough for now.  Thanks to all for your help.
-Jim Cser

[wrong identity on last post, sorry]





From peter.maas at mplusr.de  Thu Aug 19 07:50:03 2004
From: peter.maas at mplusr.de (Peter Maas)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:50:03 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <cg0ju9$97s$1@panix3.panix.com>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<du7wtzwfb8b.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi> <cg0ju9$97s$1@panix3.panix.com>
Message-ID: <cg2424$86b$1@swifty.westend.com>

Aahz schrieb:
> Ville Vainio  <ville at spammers.com> wrote:
> 
>>I'm also optimistic about retiring with Python, because *everyone* is
>>going to retire with Python in 2044 :-).
> 
> 
> 2038

It took slightly more than a decade to get rid of 16bit machines. I
don't think that anybody will use 32bit in more than 30 years. 64bit
rollover point is in 292,277,026,596. That really ought to be enough
for everybody :)

Mit freundlichen Gruessen,

Peter Maas

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Maas,  M+R Infosysteme,  D-52070 Aachen,  Tel +49-241-93878-0
E-mail 'cGV0ZXIubWFhc0BtcGx1c3IuZGU=\n'.decode('base64')
-------------------------------------------------------------------


From godoy at ieee.org  Sun Aug 29 15:26:51 2004
From: godoy at ieee.org (Jorge Godoy)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:26:51 -0300
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<1LMXc.67190$UTP.37420@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj7a9r.g7ec5a1g89rj0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<m3wtzk4562.fsf@g2ctech.com>
	<just-18D650.10163828082004@news1.news.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <m3sma5zqx0.fsf@g2ctech.com>

Just <just at xs4all.nl> writes:

> The zipimport module will never write to the zip archive, so for most 
> efficient imports, you have to store .pyc data in there yourself. 
> zipimport is mostly meant as a repackaging tool, and typical zip files 
> only contain .pyc files.

They aren't created even outside of the zip archive, this is what I
meant ;-)

-- 
Godoy.     <godoy at ieee.org>


From tim.peters at gmail.com  Mon Aug  9 00:01:17 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 00:01:17 -0400
Subject: MSI Installer issues
In-Reply-To: <4114A02F.7060906@v.loewis.de>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<411241F5.3080602@v.loewis.de>	<1f7befae040805103911610582@mail.gmail.com>	<411274C0.4070300@v.loewis.de>
	<1f7befae04080623276089908e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4114A02F.7060906@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <1f7befae040808210137f08a9e@mail.gmail.com>

[Martin v. L?wis]
>  ...
> While I have your attention: you have commented that the installer logo
> needs attribution, during the installation process. Is this still the
> case, and what is the text I should use? Any other attribution that
> needs to be made?

Its creator (Erik van Blokland) asked for attribution, in return for
doing the work.  All I know is here:

     http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/046317.html

He seemed happy with the attribution quoted there.

> A colleague has commented that logo is too low-res, is ugly, and does
> not feature reptiles. Should we look for an update to the logo?

I'm surprised this didn't trigger a flood of responses dwarfing the
decorators thread!

I'm out of any logo debate.  "low-res" may be a feature, as some
people have very low screen resolution settings and very large fonts. 
Etc, etc.  If you want the quest to end, don't ask Guido to approve a
new logo <0.9 wink>.


From sridharinfinity at gmail.com  Tue Aug  3 20:47:00 2004
From: sridharinfinity at gmail.com (Sridhar  R)
Date: 3 Aug 2004 17:47:00 -0700
Subject: guide to introspecting python?
In-Reply-To: <UVUPc.6122$AY5.373@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <cepbm4$l7l@odah37.prod.google.com>

>  What's a good document to read in order to
> understand some of python's introspective functions?

Read http://diveintopython.org
Also see 'Python in a nutshell'.
Understand the python type system, metaclassess ...  Looking at the
source code, helped me.



From mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no  Mon Aug 23 16:38:13 2004
From: mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no (Magnus Lie Hetland)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:38:13 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Standard graph API?
References: <slrncik8tm.4g.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
	<eppstein-08D901.11581523082004@news.service.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <slrncikldl.e8q.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>

In article <eppstein-08D901.11581523082004 at news.service.uci.edu>,
David Eppstein wrote:
>In article <slrncik8tm.4g.mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no>,
> mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no (Magnus Lie Hetland) wrote:
>
>> Yes, we have the standard ways of implementing graphs through (e.g.) 
>> dicts mapping nodes to neighbor-sets, but if one wants a graph that's 
>> implemented in some other way, this may not be the most convenient 
>> (or abstract) interface to emulate.
>
>Actually, my interpretation of this standard way is as a fairly abstract 
>interface, rather than a specific instantiation such as dict-of-sets:
>Most of the time, I merely require that iter(G) produces a sequence of 
>the vertices of graph G, and iter(G[v]) produces a sequence of neighbors 
>of vertex v.  I also sometimes use "v in G" and "w in G[v]" to test 
>existence of vertices or edges.

Yes, I agree, to some extent. I guess the problems start when you want
to manipulate the graph. I think it would be nice to be able to use an
empty graph object to build a given graph without knowing the
implementation. I guess you could do that in this implementation too
(if all the neighbor sets were initialized).

But if this does turn out to be an acceptable API, I'm all for it. I
just think it would be nice to have a Recommended Standard(tm), to
create interoperability.

[snip]
>- It doesn't provide an abstract way of changing the graph (although 
>that's relatively easy if G is e.g. a dict of sets)

Right.

>- It doesn't directly represent multigraphs

Unless you insist on having neighbor-sets, it does, doesn't it?
Neighbor-lists can be used for this...?

[snip]

-- 
Magnus Lie Hetland     "Canned Bread: The greatest thing since sliced
http://hetland.org      bread!" [from a can in Spongebob Squarepants]


From tdelaney at avaya.com  Sun Aug 15 20:30:54 2004
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy))
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:30:54 +1000
Subject: Why I love python.
Message-ID: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01CF4915@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

Nick Patavalis wrote:

> On 2004-08-13, kosh <kosh at aesaeion.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I don't want my cell phone to run python, java, ruby, c# etc etc. I
>> want it to just be a telephone and do that job well.
>> 
> 
> I understand. You want a nice analog cell-phone, with a large rotary
> dial, and very long cord. Sorry but resistors, capacitors, and diodes
> can only go that far. For everything else you need large clusters of
> transistors (integrated-ccircuits they are called by some) and a lot
> of them need (God forbid!) "software".

I just had the same discussion on Friday with some co-workers. However,
they didn't take *quite* the same idiotic point of view as you have.

What I want (and can't seem to find anymore) are mobile phones that fit
in the hand *comfortably*, have easy-to-use keypads (so the chance of
hitting the wrong key is minimal), good reception anywhere there's any
kind of signal, high battery life and usually good SMS support (i.e.
intelligent look-ahead dictionary).

I'm still using a Nokia 3210 because it meets most of my criteria, and
doesn't have extras that get in the way of using it as a mobile phone
(fortunately, I was able to get a new battery at a fairly low price). I
want to get a new phone, but all the ones currently available miss out
on the comfort and ease of use criteria, which to me are the two most
important.

I know plenty of people who have the same desires - a tool that does
it's job well, and doesn't try to do lots of additional jobs poorly.

Tim Delaney


From Ian.Sparks at etrials.com  Tue Aug 31 09:54:17 2004
From: Ian.Sparks at etrials.com (Ian Sparks)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:54:17 -0400
Subject: Splitting a list
Message-ID: <41A1CBC76FDECC42B67946519C6677A9018C2F6B@pippin.int.etrials.com>

string.split() is very useful, but what if I want to split a list of integers on some element value?

 e.g. :

>> l = [1,2,3,-1,4,5,-1,8,9]
>> l.split(-1)
>> [[1,2,3],[4,5],[8,9]]

Here's my hideous first pass :

>> [[int(z) for z in x.split(',') if z] for x in ','.join([str(a) for a in l]).split('-1')]
>> [[1, 2, 3], [4, 5], [8, 9]]

When I see code like that I just know I've missed something obvious....





From cjw at sympatico.ca  Mon Aug 23 07:33:55 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 07:33:55 -0400
Subject: J2 paper 0.2.1
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2180.1093238695.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2180.1093238695.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <yCkWc.7905$DG.318602@news20.bellglobal.com>

Congratulations.  This is an impressive piece of work, done in a short time.

I prefer this proposal to the existing implementation.

I hope that someone will prepare as thoughful a piece on one of the C 
options.  I would prefer C2 with uses as the keyword.

Since the 'decorator' is a modifier, it would make better sense for the 
modification to come after one has identified what is to be modified.

One nit picking comment on Robert Brewer's document: An annotation is a 
transformation of a function, as a change to the flow of control is.

Colin W.

Robert Brewer wrote:

> The first draft of the J2 proposal is ready. You can read it here:
> http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html
> 
> At this point, I am looking for comments regarding the proposal. Once I
> believe I have addressed a sufficient number of concerns, I will freeze
> the document and call for signatories, both for and against, then send
> it to Guido. Until that time, expect the draft to change multiple times
> each day (there's a meta tag with the version number if you care to
> check).
> 
> In this thread, please do not introduce discussions regarding syntaxes
> other than J2 and A1. Limit your comments to the three arguments,
> literary critique, and praise for Mr. Sparks who is providing the
> implementation. Oh, and somebody let me know if you rampaging lot crush
> my little server. ;)
> 
> 
> Robert Brewer
> MIS
> Amor Ministries
> fumanchu at amor.org



From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Sun Aug 29 09:22:00 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:22:00 -0400
Subject: Get all subdirs
In-Reply-To: <cgsk49$82c$00$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <cgsk49$82c$00$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <2pe3bnFji0a9U1@uni-berlin.de>

Florian Lindner wrote:
> how can I get all subdirectories of a given directory

 >>> import os
 >>> def subdirs(dir):
...     return [filename for filename in os.listdir(dir)
...             if os.path.isdir(os.path.join(dir, filename))]
...
 >>> subdirs('.')
['foo', 'bar', 'baz']


From has.temp2 at virgin.net  Thu Aug 12 08:16:04 2004
From: has.temp2 at virgin.net (has)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 05:16:04 -0700
Subject: Python script to generate static site?
References: <hl5lh0pb3u4m47f2bsatc9vigrv7pc7v07@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <69cbbef2.0408120416.b2e7ab4@posting.google.com>

Fred <fred at acme.com> wrote in message news:<hl5lh0pb3u4m47f2bsatc9vigrv7pc7v07 at 4ax.com>...

> I'd just like a script that would 
> 1. look in a directory for articles in raw HTML,
> 2. generate a cooked output for each page (ie. add header and footer,
> CSS link in HEAD, etc.),
> 3. regenerate the homepage with "Last modified" bit following each
> article's title,
> 4. ready to be uploaded by FTP to a web server that only handles
> static web pages.

This should be close to what you want:
<http://freespace.virgin.net/hamish.sanderson/DocGen.zip>. (See
<http://freespace.virgin.net/hamish.sanderson/htmltemplate.html>.)

To add 'last modified' dates, replace the second-last line of
write_docs.py with:

import time
index = '<ol>\n%s</ol>' % ''.join(['\t<li><a href="%s">%s</a>
%s</li>\n' % (href, name, time.strftime('(last modified: %I:%M:%S %p
on %Y-%m-%d)', time.localtime(os.stat(src + href).st_mtime))) for
name, href in chapterNames])


From apardon at forel.vub.ac.be  Fri Aug 27 11:17:53 2004
From: apardon at forel.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 15:17:53 GMT
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<mailman.2519.1093611903.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnciuk51.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>

Op 2004-08-27, Anthony Baxter schreef <anthonybaxter at gmail.com>:
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:55:26 +0200, Kjetil Torgrim Homme
>> thank you for the reference!  I'm happy to see that Guido wasn't
>> strictly opposed to such a feature 10 years ago.
>
> Regardless of what he thought back then, I think I can say with
> absolutely no fear of contradiction that there is no chance in hell of
> braces appearing in Python... ever.
>
> If your tool gets something wrong, fix the tool, don't try and change
> the language, just for the convenience of a broken tool.

Well people do make mistakes and it would be helpfull if the language
provides some feautures to help in repairing those mistakes.

It has happend that through some faulty manipulations code that
came after a loop became indented at the same level as the loop.
Because python has no end-markers that meant it wasn't obvious
to spot where the loop was supposed to stop and from where I
had to start deindenting the code.

Now of course I can remedy this situation by using comments
like #end, #if etc. That will make it obvious to correct such
mistakes. However I think one could argue that providing such
endmarkers helps readability as much as indenting code does
and since that is the principal argument for the enforced
indentation, one could consider the case for endmarkers.

-- 
Antoon Pardon


From skip at pobox.com  Thu Aug  5 22:16:00 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 21:16:00 -0500
Subject: Confused about pep 318
In-Reply-To: <ceu7ue$n3u$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>
	<ceu7ue$n3u$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
Message-ID: <16658.59872.760007.271839@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Bengt> I too am very much against wasting '@' on @decorator!

We could just switch completely to Unicode.  Then we'd have all sorts of
punctuation characters available.  How about

    # -*- coding: utf-8 -*-
    \xe2\x98\xbadecorator
    def f():
        pass

?

Skip


From fumanchu at amor.org  Wed Aug 25 10:39:47 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 07:39:47 -0700
Subject: python bytecodes by hand
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E6B@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Maurice LING wrote:
> I am just wondering about the structure of a pyc (python 
> bytecode) file 
> and has anyone successfully write a functional pyc file by hand?

Yes, they have. Although, generally, you either:

1) write a program to generate the bytecode for you in some non-standard
way, or
2) declare a similar target in Python, grab its bytecode, and tweak it
as needed.

Google for "Python bytecode hack".


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From arambo314 at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 26 22:41:14 2004
From: arambo314 at hotmail.com (Arthur Rambo)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 19:41:14 -0700
Subject: How to generically transform a list?
References: <mailman.2429.1093531645.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <533e1e03.0408261841.27f1ab5f@posting.google.com>

As simple as

theList=[['a',1,11,'aa'], ['b',2,22,'bb'],['c',3,33,'cc']]
returnList=[2,1]

newList=[[item[index] for index in returnList] for item in theList]

Python rules...

> Suppose you have a list of lists:
> 
> theList = [['a',1,11,'aa'], ['b',2,22,'bb'],['c',3,33,'cc']]
> 
> I would like to have a GENERIC way how to turn this list of list into 
> another list of list.
> - A user can choose which columns she wants
> - A user can select the order of the columns
> 
> For example:
> The user wants columns: 1,2
> The user wants it to be ordered: 2,1
> 
> A non generic approach would maybe do the following:
> 
> >>> theList = [['a',1,11,'aa'], ['b',2,22,'bb'],['c',3,33,'cc']]
> >>> new_list = [[row[2], row[1]] for row in theList]
> >>> new_list
> [[11, 1], [22, 2], [33, 3]]
> 
> I am sure there must be a rather elegant generic approach, which is 
> lurking somewhere to be realeased.
> 
> Thanks for any hint in advance,
> Marco


From zathras at thwackety.com  Sun Aug 15 11:22:58 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 16:22:58 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
In-Reply-To: <slrnchug4m.n0d.npat@gray.efault.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408151604580.20483-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004, Nick Patavalis wrote:
...
> For me it would be *tremendously* usefull if one could yield across
> multiple levels of function calls. If this was supported, then most
> uses of O/S treads could be replaced by generators.

You can do this already if you use Armin Rigo's Greenlets which, whilst
included in Stackless appear to work perfectly fine with standard python.
(I've only tested with 2.3 FWIW)

Trivial modification of one of the supplied examples:

import greenlet
def switchWrapper(): greenlet.main.switch()
def doSwitch(): switchWrapper()

def f(n):
    for i in range(n):
        print i
        doSwitch()

gf = [greenlet.greenlet(f, (10+5*j,)) for j in range(2)]

while 1:
    for g in gf:
        g.switch()

(Mainly ripped out exception handling for clarity)

One of the examples (test3.py) supplied shows how to build "standard"
generators using greenlets. The differences however are a) the function
has to be explicitly turned into a generator, b) you use a "Yield()"
function call to return the value c) it's not limited to yielding through
1 level. (ie what you just asked for :)

Example usage of the Greenlet-generators:

def foobar(i): Yield(i)
def g(n):
    for i in range(n):
        foobar(i)

g = generator(g)
for j in g(10):    print j

Indeed using the new decorator syntax you could probably simplify this to:

def foobar(i): Yield(i)

@generator
def g(n):
    for i in range(n):
        foobar(i)

for j in g(10):    print j

(Or pick your favourite decorator syntax ;-)

Regards,


Michael.



From python at elehack.net  Tue Aug 10 11:22:40 2004
From: python at elehack.net (Michael Ekstrand)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:22:40 -0500
Subject: Secure storage for passwords for admin scripts?
In-Reply-To: <c90c3203.0408100711.3f7b056d@posting.google.com>
References: <c90c3203.0408100711.3f7b056d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <200408101022.40366.python@elehack.net>

On Tuesday 10 August 2004 10:11, Max wrote:
> Are there are recommended methods for supplying scripts with login
> information in a secure fashion?

I believe the Windows task scheduler is capable of running a task as a 
given user, in which case the script need not worry about the password, 
the scheduler will store it and execute the script.

I know this is the case in Win Server 2k3, it seems like it'd probably 
be present in 2k as well.

HTH,
-Michael


From python at rcn.com  Thu Aug 26 01:19:14 2004
From: python at rcn.com (Raymond Hettinger)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 22:19:14 -0700
Subject: Proposal for removing self
References: <T_7Xc.61360$Fg5.2281@attbi_s53>
Message-ID: <5d83790c.0408252119.3e7da2a7@posting.google.com>

"Brent W. Hughes" <brent.hughes at comcast.net> wrote in message news:<T_7Xc.61360$Fg5.2281 at attbi_s53>...
> When doing object-oriented stuff, it bothers me to have to type "self" so
> many times.  I propose that Python allow the programmer to optionally type
> ".variable" instead of "self.variable" to mean the same thing.  Of course,
> the interpreter would have to be more careful about detecting floats that
> begin with just a period as in ".5".  What are your thoughts?

There's a FAQ on the subject:

http://www.python.org/doc/faq/general.html#why-must-self-be-used-explicitly-in-method-definitions-and-calls


Raymond Hettinger


From amk at amk.ca  Mon Aug 30 20:31:05 2004
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 19:31:05 -0500
Subject: [IronPython] Jim Hugunin's web log.
References: <mailman.2627.1093893089.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <x4udnSFnNtVUW67cRVn-qQ@speakeasy.net>

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 20:11:51 +0100, 
	David Wilson <dw at botanicus.net> wrote:
> Anti-trust conspiracy theories aside, if Microsoft adopts Python as a 
> part of its development toolset, the repercussions for Windows RAD and 
> scripting are massive...

Hugunin has said his job is to "make the CLR better for dynamic languages".
It's unclear to me that directive is synonymous with "develop IronPython
further"; he could invent his own new language and implement that, or work
with other CLR-based projects.  I wouldn't conclude that Microsoft is
adopting Python as a supported tool, or even that Python is Hugunin's
primary focus, until he actually says that's his goal.

--amk


From harry.g.george at boeing.com  Wed Aug 11 16:41:26 2004
From: harry.g.george at boeing.com (Harry George)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 20:41:26 GMT
Subject: Secure storage for passwords for admin scripts?
References: <c90c3203.0408100711.3f7b056d@posting.google.com>
	<411a3602$1_2@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <xqxk6w5s8zt.fsf@cola2.ca.boeing.com>

"Roger Upole" <rupole at hotmail.com> writes:

> You could store the passwords in a file protected by NTFS encryption,
> or set the file security to only allow administrators access.
>       hth
>             Roger
> 
> "Max" <mksql at yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:c90c3203.0408100711.3f7b056d at posting.google.com...
> > I have a collection of system admin scripts (on Win 2k) that I would
> > like to automate the execution of. However, some of them require the
> > use of logins with admin rights, and would therefore prefer not to
> > store the IDs in the clear text of the source. If memory serves
> > correctly, the "compiled" .pyc files do not provide much security in
> > this area.
> >
> > Are there are recommended methods for supplying scripts with login
> > information in a secure fashion?
> 
> 

Consider using ssh-agent.  See "SSH The Secure Shell" from O'Reilly,
chapter on "Case Studies ... Unattended SSH: batch or cron".

-- 
harry.g.george at boeing.com
6-6M21 BCA CompArch Design Engineering
Phone: (425) 342-0007


From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 12 15:37:15 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:37:15 -0400
Subject: multiline snippets with triple quotes
In-Reply-To: <cfgff0$p3o$1@online.de>
References: <cfgff0$p3o$1@online.de>
Message-ID: <9bGdnZbtJ4d2W4bcRVn-sw@powergate.ca>

Christoph Zwerschke wrote:

> So, what would be the pythonic way to implement such multiline snippets?

Define them externally to that code block.  Either put
them above the function, or at the top of the module,
or have them read from an external file, with the
best approach being dependent on the precise situation
at hand.  For example, if you have only one or two
such things, just use parentheses and single quotes
instead of the triple quoting, while if you have a
bunch of them but don't want to read them from a file,
put them in a separate module and just import and
reference them as required.

-Peter


From benzwt at yahoo.com.tw  Mon Aug  9 01:26:12 2004
From: benzwt at yahoo.com.tw (benzwt at yahoo.com.tw)
Date: 8 Aug 2004 22:26:12 -0700
Subject: Plotting histograms, scatter plots in Python
References: <d1f3d1d3.0408061018.137b600f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <ffe876d2.0408082126.477ea77f@posting.google.com>

DrColombes at yahoo.com (Dr. Colombes) wrote in message news:<d1f3d1d3.0408061018.137b600f at posting.google.com>...
> What is the easiest way to generate some plots and graphs in Python ?
> 
> Specifically interested in simple histograms and scatter plots with
> circles and regression lines.
> 
> Thanks for your suggestions.

For high quality scientific plot I suggest 
 ppgplot and plplot.

pgplot (original)
http://www.astro.caltech.edu/~tjp/pgplot/

ppgplot (python module)
http://efault.net/npat/hacks/ppgplot/

plplot
http://plplot.sourceforge.net/


From ivoras at __-geri.cc.fer.hr  Thu Aug 19 17:43:30 2004
From: ivoras at __-geri.cc.fer.hr (Ivan Voras)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:43:30 +0200
Subject: Mixing classes...
Message-ID: <cg36u1$mq0$1@bagan.srce.hr>

Is this possible:

class C1:
	def somemethods(self):
		"""methods do stuff, create member variables"""
		pass

def f1():
	"""function returns instances of C1, somewhat manipulated into specific 
states"""
	return C1()


class C2(C1): # C2 derives from C1
	def othermethods(self):
		"""new methods are introduced, but no new member variables (they work 
on existing ones)"""
		pass



# So far, everything's ok. Now, i want to create instance of
# C1 using f1:

c = f1()  # could be equal to "c=C1()", but not always...

# ... and somehow "add" or "overlay" the additional methods
# declared in C2 on the object "c". I tried this:

c.othermethods=C2.othermethods

c.othermethods() # fails here, is confused about what is 'self'


#######
While this is probably considered "strange", and it's certainly not good 
design style, I somehow feel it could be possible to do in python. Any 
clues?



From quaggy at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 22:24:08 2004
From: quaggy at gmail.com (Jonathan Wright)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 19:24:08 -0700
Subject: Fun transformation problem
In-Reply-To: <cgm2ip$24s@odak26.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgm608$8kl@odah37.prod.google.com>

Ooops... lets try again:

.def trans(paths):
.	tree = {}
.	for path in paths:
.		branch = tree
.		for node in path[:-2]:
.			branch = branch.setdefault(node, {})
.		branch[path[-2]] = path[-1]
.	return tree
I don't know how that enumerate slipped in there. :)

Jonathan.



From tdelaney at avaya.com  Fri Aug 13 03:01:27 2004
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy))
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 17:01:27 +1000
Subject: Why I love python.
Message-ID: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01CF47CD@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy) wrote:

> So did you have a similar reaction on first hitting the indentation
> for blocks? I know I dimly recall thinking that this was very strange
> and horrible (dimly, because it was 1992 or 1993).

I should note that I've said my piece on c.l.py and python-dev about
@decorators and feel that if my arguments haven't swayed anyone yet,
they're not likely to so it's time to shut up. But the question asked
deserved a response ;)

Tim Delaney


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Mon Aug 30 16:23:05 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 22:23:05 +0200
Subject: Search for AVI file?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408302208480.1162-100000@kleigh.nl>
References: <ol17j0pdpiuubu6f9n5vpho4136vimsq6n@4ax.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408302208480.1162-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408302222240.1162-100000@kleigh.nl>

Peter Kleiweg schreef:

> John Doe schreef:
>
> > I realise that this is not really a python question, but python's the
> > only language I'd be comfortable trying to deal with this.
> >
> > What I need is to search a drive and find all the AVI format files
> > that are NOT listed with the AVI extension.  I'm looking over an old
> > drive of mine from an old computer.  I know the files were renamed
> > with the wrong extension, but I know that they were originally AVI
> > files.  Can python do this for me?  Any hints?  Anybody have a link to
> > something that would already do this?  I appreciate any help.
>
> Use walk() to find all files. Open each file and read in the
> first 12 bytes. The last four of those 12 bytes should be
> 'AVI ', if I'm not mistaken.

Or from the command line:

find / -type f -exec file '{}' ';' | grep AVI



-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 12 13:09:14 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:09:14 -0400
Subject: PEP318
In-Reply-To: <7ttmh0t8c3cogtbhhnp1ohqu8b51pda461@4ax.com>
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<20040812090056.00001e31@titan>
	<7ttmh0t8c3cogtbhhnp1ohqu8b51pda461@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <411ba43a$1@nntp.zianet.com>

Arthur wrote:
> I guess I am mystified what it is that is perceived to have been
> gained ... by moving magic outside the function block to the top of a
> function in lieu of expressive code outside the function block at the
> bottom of the function. Something is created, and then transofrmed -
> in the language of transformation that transcends the implementation
> detail of what programming language is doing the work.

I'm in the same boat. I wanted something (anything!) to get around the 
ugliness that is f=foo(f) after the def. Now that we have it (in spades, 
considering all the variants), I don't find it to be any more satisfying 
than what we already had.

Sigh.

   -- Mark


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 25 19:47:35 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:47:35 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>

Jess Austin wrote:
> 
> Here I think you're making an unwarranted assumption.  There is
> currently nothing stopping an object from using information about
> itself to do its job.  And this is sometimes a useful freedom.  As an
> example, you might have subclasses whose only real purpose is to keep
> track of their class and metadata, and have all functionality provided
> by their superclass:
> 
> class supe(object):
>     """this docstring is rarely frobnosticated"""
>     def do_something_based_on_metadata():
>         frobnosticate(self.__doc__)
> 
> class sub1(supe):
>     """I am sub1"""
> 
> class sub2(supe):
>     """I am sub2"""
> 

What you're trying to illustrate (I believe) is a superclass doing 
something based on the docstring of a subclass.  Yes this certainly does 
happen.  But the superclass and subclass are separate objects.  I was 
talking about the situation where a function does something based on 
/its own/ metadata.  That is what I'm saying virtually never happens, 
and therefore it's ok to make all assignments to __xxx__ attributes 
inside of a function def create /function attributes/ rather than /local 
variables/.


Paul



From indigo at bitglue.com  Tue Aug 17 13:08:11 2004
From: indigo at bitglue.com (Phil Frost)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:08:11 -0400
Subject: Is it possible to write a DLL using python
In-Reply-To: <cft24m$njb$1@news-reader2.wanadoo.fr>
References: <cft24m$njb$1@news-reader2.wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <20040817170811.GA26817@unununium.org>

Not directly, but yes, using libpython. Essentially you write your
python code and then a thin C wrapper over it that does datatype and
calling convention conversion. Since this is not a pleasant task for
many people, you might take a look at Pyrex, which does this quite
nicely. Generally Pyrex is considered as a way to wrap C code for use
but Python, but it works just as well the other way.

On Tue, Aug 17, 2004 at 03:44:50PM +0200, AMD wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I need to write a Win32 DLL and I would like to use Python instead of 
> VB, C++ or Delphi. Is this possible?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Andre M. Descombes


From luismg at gmx.net  Fri Aug 13 11:33:14 2004
From: luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 08:33:14 -0700
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<10ho7626f5f3f74@news.supernews.com>
	<slrncho8m9.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
Message-ID: <278de0e.0408130733.78e9e922@posting.google.com>

I guess you are looking for type inference or something along these
lines.
There's a very amibicious project called "Starkiller" which is a
static type inferencer and a c++ compiler for Pyhon.
It's being developed by Michael Salib, an MIT graduate, and as far as
I know it will be released very soon.

Preliminary results show speedups by a factor of 60.
http://www.python.org/pycon/dc2004/papers/1/presentation.pdf


From fumanchu at amor.org  Sun Aug  1 00:18:12 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:18:12 -0700
Subject: Returning another instance from constructor
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022DCC@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Edward Diener wrote:
> ...I can find no documentation in the Python 2.3 docs 
> for __new__ . Can you point me to it ?

Start with http://www.python.org/2.2.3/descrintro.html


FuManChu


From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Mon Aug  2 11:57:06 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 17:57:06 +0200
Subject: PyQt - clear widget for redraw
References: <410b4492@news.maxnet.co.nz> <ceg1gk$e0b$03$1@news.t-online.com>
	<410bf265@news.maxnet.co.nz> <ceiidi$u4k$05$1@news.t-online.com>
	<410d0699@news.maxnet.co.nz>
Message-ID: <celo8g$bbf$06$1@news.t-online.com>

> What I'm drawing is a series of lines (like a horizontal bar chart) and it
> is updated several times a second.  The problem is that it goes too fast.
> I tried the time.sleep() function, but then it doesn't draw properly.  It
> seems to draw only part of the chart each time, and flickers.
> 

Usually there is no "to fast" in graphics - so I've got to admit I'm not
sure what you are talking about.

Where does the data to draw come from, and how fast is it actually coming? A
flickering sensation usually stems from the redrawing done so fast it
interfers with the vertical retrace. 

Maybe it helps to put your sleep not in the drawing code, but between the
arrival of different data sets to draw, thus limiting the redraws to an
amount of lets say 10/s.

If you'd fill us in with some more details, the suggestions might be better.
And I think it would be worth asking these qustions on the PyKDE list Jim
has mentioned - I'm also there :)
 
-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk  Fri Aug 27 06:21:36 2004
From: michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk (Michael Sparks)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:21:36 +0100
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<412cf775$0$11496$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net>
	<cgl37h$6ss$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2510.1093600577.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgn2gn$qri$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>

Richie Hindle wrote:
> [Michael]
>> Patch against current CVS including __future__
>> statements/declarations has now been created, tested and uploaded to
>> SourceForge. All tests pass.
> 
> Nice one - well done for all your work on this.

You're very welcome. I'd encourage anyone who's interested in python's
advancement to do the same, to be honest. The codebase is one of the
cleanest I've encountered and fairly easy to get started with, and it's
been a pleasure to work on. This experience will certainly encourage me
to participate more in future. (Probably on my own time though!)

>> British Broadcasting Corporation, Research and Development
> 
> Is my license fee paying for this?  If so, great!  8-)  Makes for a
> much better investment than Fame Academy.

Yep. (Well, as well as my own time at the weekend/evenings, but that's
common for open source :)

We have a (small) allocation in our time for "bright ideas" regarding
things that'll help the BBC in ways outside normal projects, and help
further tools etc we use. :-) I think I've probably used mine up for a
while now, but I think it's been worthwhile.

We use Python (amongst many other languages) in R&D for prototyping
ideas and I'm aware of various other parts of the BBC using python as
well, so by helping the python community we help ourselves and everyone
wins :) (Even if the patch is rejected it'll help resolve an argument!)

I couldn't *possibly* begin to comment on Fame Academy though, I might
say something I shouldn't ;-)

Best Regards,


Michael.
-- 
Michael.Sparks at rd.bbc.co.uk    
British Broadcasting Corporation, Research and Development
Kingswood Warren, Surrey KT20 6NP

This message (and any attachments) may contain personal views
which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.




From peufeu at free.fr  Wed Aug 25 04:43:17 2004
From: peufeu at free.fr (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Pierre-Fr=E9d=E9ric_Caillaud?=)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:43:17 +0200
Subject: string concatenation optimizations [from python-dev Summary]
References: <412AC928.7000603@ocf.berkeley.edu>
	<mailman.2311.1093388016.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <opsc946fs11v4ijd@musicbox>


	psyco does this transparently for you. It can treat concatenated strings  
as arrays of strings behind the scenes, and it'll be faster than a class.  
(in fact, it is very fast).

	There is also cStringIO.

	If you want to write a mutable string class, though, that'd be handy.


On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:53:35 -0400, Phil Frost <indigo at bitglue.com> wrote:

> Has adding a stringish object that supports efficient slicing,
> concatenation, and mutation been considered? The C++ STL rope comes to
> mind. Essentially what I have in mind is a type that's a list of byte
> arrays. The value is defined as the concatenation of these arrays.
>
> This would allow efficient implementations of things such as
> s[31:35] = 'replacing a small substring with a larger one'
>
> I think a reasonable implementation could be done using existing python
> types, and if it's useful, an opmitized C implementation could be done.
>
> This sort of thing is already on my stack of things to find on google,
> write, or get someone else to write, just need the time. So what do you
> think? Useful idea? Does this already exist?
>
> On Mon, Aug 23, 2004 at 09:50:48PM -0700, Brett Cannon wrote:
>> python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Changing the Big-O complexity for something in the language is now a
>> language feature
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> language evolution
>>
>> Armin Rigo came up with a way to have string concatenation in a loop
>> (think ``for thing in iter_of_strings: concat_str += thing``) not be a
>> quadratic algorithm thanks to some trickery for ``a = a + b`` and ``a +=
>> b`` conditions for strings.  The hope was to remove the (commonly
>> considered) wart of having ``"".join(iter_of_strings)`` be the suggested
>> way to concatenate a bunch of strings.
>>
>> But Guido didn't like the patch.  His reasoning was that changing
>> something that led to a change in the Big-O complexity of certain
>> algorithms would inherently hurt other implementations of Python when
>> people would start to code specifically for that performance gain.  For
>> instance, having Jython be able to pull this trick off is, I believe,
>> near impossible.  So, in order to make sure changes like this are
>> considered before applying them, Guido instated a new rule that
>> "implementation features that affect not just the running speed but the
>> O() rate for certain algorithms should be considered language features,
>> because any implementation will be required to implement them in order
>> to ensure code portability" between implementations of Python.
>>
>> In the end, though, this went in with a warning that the speed
>> performance is not portable.  It is not to be used in the stdlib ever.
>>
>> Contributing threads:
>>   - `Optimized string concatenation
>> <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046686.html>`__
>>   - `PEP 0008 confusion - here it is, but don't use it?
>> <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047194.html>`__
>>
>> [snip]



From jpmorichon at earthlink.net  Thu Aug 12 12:46:26 2004
From: jpmorichon at earthlink.net (CptPicard)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:46:26 GMT
Subject: Print command
References: <mailman.1511.1092239223.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<WosSc.21396$Jp6.6141@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<2nv6roF54f7iU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<cvmdnbvUcbh--obcRVn-uw@powergate.ca>
	<2o19ojF5ob9jU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<MJ-dnQQiMd957obcRVn-vA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <C9NSc.14131$nx2.11794@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>


"Peter Hansen" <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message
news:MJ-dnQQiMd957obcRVn-vA at powergate.ca...
> Russell Blau wrote:
>
> > "Peter Hansen" <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message
> > news:cvmdnbvUcbh--obcRVn-uw at powergate.ca...
> >
> >>"Russell Blau" <russblau at hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> > Actually, I don't know the meaning of  ``.
> >> > On some languages, it means "evaluate": Is it the same meaning in
> >> > Python?
> >
> > Ummm, actually, that wasn't me you were quoting; it was the OP who
replied
> > to my message pointing out that `x` doesn't mean the same as 'x'.
>
> Quite right... my apologies for the bad editing.  It was
> 'Cpt Picard' who wrote that, not Russell.
>

Thank you for the explanation on `` and for the fun ;-)

And sorry for asking for things that I could check by myself but the "you
know" at the end of  Russel Blau's email sounds like a call for me to say
"no, actually, I don't know".

> -Peter




From flupke at nonexistingdomain.com  Tue Aug 10 19:56:00 2004
From: flupke at nonexistingdomain.com (flupke)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 23:56:00 GMT
Subject: wxPython & redirecting stderr
References: <wp6Sc.209539$Ur.10556482@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<30260531.0408101452.76e424fa@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <kgdSc.210141$vY7.10546283@phobos.telenet-ops.be>



simo wrote:
> "flupke" <flupke at nonexistingdomain.com> wrote:
>
>> i'm developing an app in wxPython but when i have an error in the
>> wxPython code i've written, the app starts, an extra windows is
>> opened where the error messages are print and then it closes
>> again. Off course, this is to fast for the human eye to read :)
>> How can i avoid this and have the wxPython messages arrive at the
>> console just like the "normal" python error messages?
>
> As I recall it has something to do with how you call MainLoop - I
> think it's the 0 below, maybe you have 1 or nothing?
>
> app = MyApp(0)
> app.MainLoop()

That's it. Thanks!

Benedict




From com-nospam at ccraig.org  Thu Aug 12 08:52:30 2004
From: com-nospam at ccraig.org (Christopher A. Craig)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 08:52:30 -0400
Subject: The winner of the Python Decorator Poll is...
References: <Ue-dnX0CBNhaEYfcRVn-ig@comcast.com>
	<mailman.1533.1092259988.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4edc17eb.0408112052.1bbd85b3@posting.google.com>
	<59e9fd3a04081122235b3d9145@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <t1wr7qc1ptd.fsf@kermit.wreck.org>

Andrew Durdin <adurdin at gmail.com> writes:

> Since you like the current proposal, why *didn't* you vote for it (it
> was the first one)?

I didn't vote for it because I sit comfortable in the knowledge that
Guido will ignore the poll results.

-- 
Christopher A. Craig <com-nospam at ccraig.org>



From jpmorichon at earthlink.net  Wed Aug 11 13:09:10 2004
From: jpmorichon at earthlink.net (CptPicard)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:09:10 GMT
Subject: Print command
References: <mailman.1511.1092239223.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <WosSc.21396$Jp6.6141@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>

I think that you should try:
    string.rjust('currentTotal',6)
instead of:
    string.rjust(`currentTotal`,6)

You may also do it this this way:
'currentTotal'.rjust(6)


"Yong Wang" <yong at net.tamu.edu> wrote in message
news:mailman.1511.1092239223.5135.python-list at python.org...
> Hi, All:
>   For unknow reasons, I often get compiler error in the print
> statements. For example: I have following codes:
>
> if len(currentFiberCode) > 0 :
>                 print
string.ljust(expandFiberCode(currentFiberCode,buildingRoom),30), \
>                     string.rjust(`currentTotal`,6), \
>                     string.rjust(`currentAvailable`,11), \
>                     string.rjust(`sm_ava`,7), \
>                     string.rjust(`mm_ava`,6), \
>                     string.rjust(`sm_used`,9), \
>                     string.rjust(`mm_used`,9)
>             else:
>                 print 'data exist in fiber database table'
>
> When I comiped all the codes, I got :
> Compiling ./NetDBfiber.py ...
>   File "./NetDBfiber.py", line 1086
>     string.rjust(`currentTotal`,6), \
>                                       ^
> SyntaxError: invalid token
>
>
> How can I fix the problems ?
>    Thanks a lot.
>
>     Yong
>




From scott.b.drummonds.nospam at intel.com  Wed Aug 11 13:32:21 2004
From: scott.b.drummonds.nospam at intel.com (Scott Brady Drummonds)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:32:21 -0700
Subject: 'break' Causes Execution of Procedure?
References: <cfdif9$hhm$1@news01.intel.com>
Message-ID: <cfdl76$j1m$1@news01.intel.com>

"Scott Brady Drummonds" <scott.b.drummonds.nospam at intel.com> wrote in
message news:cfdif9$hhm$1 at news01.intel.com...
> How is it possible that the call to 'break' is seemingly being replaced
with
> a call to 'main'?

I should also point out that the second time that the program's execution
reaches the 'break' statement in the 'main' procedure, I get the following
cryptic error message:

<quote>
DEBUG: advancing both simulators to 20178
DEBUG: encountered EOFError; breaking loop
XXX lineno: 109, opcode: 0
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "test.py", line 135, in ?
    main(sys.argv[1])
  File "test.py", line 109, in main
    break
SystemError: unknown opcode
</quote>

What's going on here?

Scott

-- 
Remove .nospam from my e-mail address to mail me.





From sross at connectmail.carleton.ca  Sat Aug  7 09:37:41 2004
From: sross at connectmail.carleton.ca (Sean Ross)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 09:37:41 -0400
Subject: Decorator syntax
References: <mailman.1173.1091670172.5135.python-list@python.org><38ednYT1NLz1P4zcRVn-uA@powergate.ca><JEiQc.16955$_25.574@fe2.texas.rr.com><Pine.LNX.4.44.0408050856390.31290-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu><2njp58F1jj1dU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<mailman.1335.1091875631.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <O%4Rc.49731$Vm1.1246946@news20.bellglobal.com>


"Anthony Baxter" <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1335.1091875631.5135.python-list at python.org...
> On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 16:28:11 +0600, Yawar Amin <yawar.amin at gmail.com>
wrote:
> > How about
> >
> > def foo(a, b, c):
> >      foo.accepts = (int, int, list)
> >      foo.author = 'Chris King'
>
> How would you express foo=classmethod(foo) in this syntax? Far better to
have
> one flexible tool in the toolbox than a host of little, less functional
tools.

Well, You could add a decorate method with the following signature to
functions:

func.decorate(*decorators, **attributes)

Then use:

def foo(a, b, c):
    "foo can decorate itself, from the inside"
    foo.decorate(abstract, synchronized, classmethod,
                       accepts=(int,int,int), author='Chris King')
    ...
    ...






From guettli at thomas-guettler.de  Fri Aug 20 07:02:31 2004
From: guettli at thomas-guettler.de (Thomas Guettler)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:02:31 +0200
Subject: Feature Request: Current time in traceback
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.20.11.02.31.742207@thomas-guettler.de>

Hi,

I think it would be good, if the current time
would be in the traceback.

This would make it easier to read logfiles with
tracebacks of python scripts.

I know that I can write a custom exception handler,
but why not make it the default?

Regards,
 Thomas



From justin__devine at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 30 13:29:23 2004
From: justin__devine at hotmail.com (Justin)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 10:29:23 -0700
Subject: Size of a remote URL
Message-ID: <cgvo5j$r60@odah37.prod.google.com>

How does Internet Explorer and other browsers do it?  I have tried
doing a Save As on multiple files that I know do not return a
content-length header and yet it still knows the size and creates a
progress bar?



From jerf at jerf.org  Mon Aug 23 16:22:40 2004
From: jerf at jerf.org (Jeremy Bowers)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:22:40 GMT
Subject: Standard graph API?
References: <slrncik8tm.4g.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
	<eppstein-08D901.11581523082004@news.service.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.23.16.22.34.771887@jerf.org>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:58:15 -0700, David Eppstein wrote:

> - It doesn't directly represent multigraphs
> 
> - It doesn't directly represent undirected graphs (instead you have to
> replace an undirected edge by two directed edges and hope your callers
> don't give you a directed graph by mistake).
> 
> - There isn't an explicit object representing an edge, although you can
> create one by using a tuple (v,w) or (for undirected edges) a set.

I think these three things speak to why there isn't a graph type and
probably won't be one any time soon; unlike "Sets", there are just too
many types of "graphs" in use, all fundamentally different in
implementation, and with all differences having massive performance
implications. As you indirectly point out, each of the following is an
independent dimension:

* Directed, undirected
* Multi or non-multi
* Explicit edges/explicit nodes with links/node and edge objects
* Simple and fast implementation of nodes/nodes and edges that take
  attributes

That's a good 24 possible types of graph library, each with implications
w.r.t. algorithms and performance.

While the abstract idea of a standard graph library is appealing to some
people, any actual concrete implementation will likely leave the majority
of people who want to use it out in the cold, resulting either in
something only useful in the simplest of cases, or suffering from major
feeping creaturitis as it tries to cover too many bases at once.



From scherrey at proteus-tech.com  Wed Aug 11 03:18:34 2004
From: scherrey at proteus-tech.com (Benjamin Scherrey)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 03:18:34 -0400
Subject: Executing bytecode from a string.
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.11.07.18.32.690395@proteus-tech.com>

I'm curious as to how difficult it would be to take a string that contains
compiled bytecode, load it into memory, give it a function name then
execute that function. I'm thinking of a database that contains compiled
objects that I can load and execute. I'm also curious as to what level of
grainularity this would work - module, class, class method, function?
Anyone tried to do this before? Obviously dependencies are a consideration
but I'm more interested in the mechanics of this. Appreciate ideas &
pointers you might have...

	Ben Scherrey


From skip at pobox.com  Tue Aug 10 13:14:57 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:14:57 -0500
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar,
 but for what exactly? (decorator libraries).
In-Reply-To: <roy-0D45FB.09322108082004@reader1.panix.com>
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
	<mailman.1352.1091953503.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-0D45FB.09322108082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <16665.657.922906.180041@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Roy> Does the proposed mechanism support something like (to use one of
    Roy> Dan's exmaples, written with two different syntaxen):

    ...

Yes (using a class instead of a module simply for convenience):

    class martha:
        memo = {}

        @staticmethod
        def memoize(func):
            if func not in martha.memo:
                martha.memo[func] = {}
            def _inner(*args, **kwds):
                items = kwds.items()
                items.sort()
                items = tuple(items)
                key = (args, items)
                try:
                    val = martha.memo[key]
                except KeyError:
                    val = func(*args, **kwds)
                    martha.memo[key] = val
                return val
            return _inner

    @martha.memoize
    def fib(n):
        assert n >= 0
        print n
        if n <= 1:
            return 1
        return n + fib(n-1)

    print fib(5)
    print fib(4)

Running that yields this output:

    5
    4
    3
    2
    1
    15
    10

Skip


From davidf at sjsoft.com  Thu Aug 26 05:25:21 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:25:21 +0200
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgkaa1$juq$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

FOR

Thanks for all the hard work

David Fraser


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Mon Aug 23 17:04:22 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:04:22 -0500
Subject: Why are strings immutable?
References: <chzVc.288437$a24.71659@attbi_s03>
	<ibednRPmoMofVbvcRVn-oA@powergate.ca>
	<O%rWc.171256$8_6.61890@attbi_s04>
Message-ID: <DbqdnXN8NqpMxrfcRVn-pw@comcast.com>

Think about it.  Since strings occupy a fixed
number of bytes in memory, a mutable string would
just be a linked list of strings.  For performance
reasons you can't require that everything in memory
gets moved around when you want to add one byte to
a string.  Multiply that by 20K and performance
would be terrible.  Since a mutable string is just
a list of strings, Python just asks the programmer
to treat it exactly like what it REALLY is.  If
you want to append lots of things to a string, build
a list and then join it into a string at the end
of processing.

Your example:

List = [ ]
for i in range(20000):
    Word = DoSomeProcessing()
    List.extend(list(Word))
Str = ''.join(List)


will work as:

words=[]
for i in xrange(20000):
    word = DoSomeProcessing()
    words.append(word)

word_string = ' '.join(words)

Notes:

1) You build the word_list by appending words that
come back frmo DoSomeProcessing().

2) If you want a space between your words you must
specify it as the character before .join() call.

3) range(20000) will create a list of length=20000
and interate over it, xrange(20000) will just create
an iterable object that returns the next number on
each sucessive call (saving both memory and the time
to create the 20K list).

4) You should stay FAR away from variables named
list or str (even though you capitalized the first
character).  list and str are python functions that
can easily get redefined by accident.  List and Str
will work, but I've seen MANY Python programmers walk
on list, str, dict by accident and later wonder why.

HTH,
Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.

"Brent W. Hughes" <brent.hughes at comcast.net> wrote in message
news:O%rWc.171256$8_6.61890 at attbi_s04...
> Let me give two examples of where I think it would be nice to be able to
> change strings in place:
>
>
> First example:
>
> I want to add about 20,000 words to the end of a string, something like
> this:
>
> Str = [ ]
> for i in range(20000):
>  Word = DoSomeProcessing()
>  Str += Word
>
> I'd actually like to say Str.extend(Word).  As it is, I'm thinking of
> something like this:
>
> List = [ ]
> for i in range(20000):
>  Word = DoSomeProcessing()
>  List.extend(list(Word))
> Str = ''.join(List)
>
>
> Second example:
>
> I would like to reverse a string containing about 120,000 characters.  I'd
> like to do it in place, but I'm planning to do something like this:
>
> List = list(Str)
> List.reverse()
> Str = ''.join(List)
>
>




From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Fri Aug 20 09:49:55 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:49:55 GMT
Subject: Decorator keyword options
Message-ID: <7knVc.4599$Jn5.3074@fe1.texas.rr.com>

Thanks to everyone who has voted so far - please keep them coming!  Lurkers,
this means you!

In the interests of saving time, I propose that an additional thread start
soon, to determine choices for a decorator keyword, in the event that our
selected syntax requires one.  Please visit the PythonDecorators Wiki page,
and navigate to section 6.1 Indicators (or follow this link
http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators#head-61f608dbce6ba75b2317d7825d8529997f56fc9e )
(not sure how reliable this is?)  I have started numbering the options in
preparation for another voting thread, if you have other proposals, please
include them on this Wiki page, along with your +/0/- commentary.

-- Paul




From jerf at jerf.org  Mon Aug 30 14:04:32 2004
From: jerf at jerf.org (Jeremy Bowers)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 18:04:32 GMT
Subject: Testing automatically on import
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<tyf3c28ps1t.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
	<1ry8k0d2az.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<10iv0kid2ig9ka6@corp.supernews.com>
	<1rpt5ccbso.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<10ivpk9inpnh65@corp.supernews.com>
	<1rd61bd26k.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<1gj892g.1hlc8ar1po78b6N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<pan.2004.08.28.16.30.10.125568@jerf.org>
	<1gja5sf.vbe56knfvu9sN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.30.14.04.37.651620@jerf.org>

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:05:12 +0200, Alex Martelli wrote:
> Hmmm, I could be wrong, but I think you have to check timestamps and
> 'magic' signatures yourself.  Pity, because imp.load_module must also do
> that, but I don't think it makes this logic available separately.
> Still, I believe Demo/imputil/importers.py has all the code you need.

Drat, I was hoping someone would pop out with just that. Thanks for the
tip and I'll see what I can do over the next few days.


From arustad at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 23:10:25 2004
From: arustad at gmail.com (Aaron  Rustad)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 20:10:25 -0700
Subject: Proposal for removing self
In-Reply-To: <cgj4jf$15a@odak26.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgjkb1$ck@odak26.prod.google.com>


Brett C. wrote:
> No thanks.  This is a common suggestion and Guido has said it ain't
> going to happen.  I personally like 'self' a lot because ambiguity
from
> reading code goes away.  It is easy to not see a '.' but not so for
> 'self.' .  It also makes teaching OOP to people much easier since you
> don't need to explain why some variables and method calls are to the
> instance but  other are not.  "Explicit is better than implicit".



From arien.malec at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 18:13:01 2004
From: arien.malec at gmail.com (Arien Malec)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 15:13:01 -0700
Subject: PEP318: radical notion
References: <Xns954E72EC48C5Earienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>
	<412a4222$0$293$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <d3247b7a.0408241413.55b34cb2@posting.google.com>

Christophe Cavalaria <chris.cavalaria at free.fr> wrote in message news:<412a4222$0$293$626a14ce at news.free.fr>...
> Arien Malec wrote:

> > 1) Make PEP318 *only* implement problem (1). That is, create sematics for
> > defining and retrieving function/method/class metadata
> > 2) Create a new default metaclass that uses metadata for class/static
> > method definitions to perform the necessary class/staticmethod
> > transformations. Perhaps use this metaclass as default in 2.4 only via a
> > "from __future__ import foo".
> > 3) Leave any arbitrary transformations to be implemented via custom
> > metaclasses -- these metaclasses will have access to the custom metadata
> > to trigger method def transformations.

> Unfortunately for you, you can use decorators on normal functions and not
> only on member functions. It rules out any metaclass based implementation.

Is there a valid use case that supports arbitrary magical non-metadata
transformations of standalone functions?

Arien


From vronskij at post.sk  Wed Aug 18 10:55:42 2004
From: vronskij at post.sk (vronskij at post.sk)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 07:55:42 -0700
Subject: How big can a Python program be?
References: <903b3fba.0408170333.49ce3944@posting.google.com>
	<DZKdnWOMArY6ZrzcRVn-rw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <903b3fba.0408180655.6a23aede@posting.google.com>

> What are you actually asking?  What technical limitations,
> such as maximum line count per module, Python might have?

Well this is maybe difficult to define. Programs reach some limit and
become unmanagable. This is one reason why we have OOP, UML etc.


> And more importantly than anything: why do you want to know
> such things?  

Simple. Can you make an ERP in Python? Or is Python limited to little
nice scripts or small programs with nice GUI?
We are thinking to start a huge project, which could be hundreds of
thousands of lines huge. I would finally know the answer, but it is
probably better to ask first...


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Mon Aug  9 14:33:28 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 14:33:28 -0400
Subject: Prothon is switching to the .NET platform
References: <000401c47b59$32539220$0d01a8c0@MarkVaio>
	<mailman.1257.1091769173.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061247130.22947-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<10h7lb21dhbuc12@news.supernews.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061533250.25906-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<10h7rittck6ct75@news.supernews.com>
	<cf1t0h$ond$03$1@news.t-online.com>
	<10h9dkm5ub5h1f2@news.supernews.com>
	<1dske12sbt1mj$.1aq70xrpy0r0i.dlg@40tude.net>
	<10hc6mk55u0qq26@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <10hfgsf84rvtmfb@news.supernews.com>

"John Roth" <newsgroups at jhrothjr.com> wrote in message
news:10hc6mk55u0qq26 at news.supernews.com...
>
>
> Hans Nowak just sent me a private e-mail pointing out that he
> had done a Self-style implementation about a year ago. It looks
> interesting, especially since it uses getattr and setattr rather than
> getattribute. The trick with functions seems to be to use
> new.instancemethod. Otherwise the code looks to be very
> straightforward. __setattr__ just makes a couple of type
> checks, insures that instances ending in _p are from the
> selfish class, wraps functions in new.instancemethod and
> rewraps methods likewise. __getattr__ implements the
> inheritance rules.

It does, by the way, work quite nicely. I just implemented
"Cloak of Darkness" (which is the text adventure game that
Roger Firth uses to assess the difficulty of writing in new
interactive fiction authoring systems) in a couple of hours
using TDD. The only significant problems I ran into were
due to lack of support in Python itself - the package worked
flawlessly.

The biggest issue was that it violated one of the fundamental
assumptions in unittest - since everything is initialized at
module load time, each test does *not* see a fresh copy
of object instances.

I also forgot several times to bind functions to the
objects - the same problem that people have with
staticmethod and classmethod that decorators are
supposed to fix.

This is one of the domains where a prototype based
object system shines: every object in the game is otherwise
a singleton that needs its own class!

John Roth
>




From narshe at gmail.com  Wed Aug 18 15:27:39 2004
From: narshe at gmail.com (Josh Close)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:27:39 -0500
Subject: name of current program
Message-ID: <4a0cafe20408181227543a1284@mail.gmail.com>

This is a simple question, but I can't find the answer for some reason.

How do I get the name of the current script/program that is running?

-Josh


From Jared.Cohen at noaa.gov  Thu Aug 19 13:09:23 2004
From: Jared.Cohen at noaa.gov (Jared Cohen)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:09:23 -0400
Subject: Please help -- Tkinter Scale widget with DoubleVar is acting	weird
Message-ID: <4124DEC3.7050106@noaa.gov>

  I tried your code, and the exact same problem happened. When I set the 
slider to certain values (for instance, 0.3), the callback would start 
to be invoked when I just moved the mouse over the slider without even 
clicking.
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From fperez528 at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 12 17:02:46 2004
From: fperez528 at yahoo.com (Fernando Perez)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:02:46 -0600
Subject: Verbosity Check Style
References: <mailman.1563.1092324234.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<m28yckf8ls.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
Message-ID: <cfgltm$bbt$1@peabody.colorado.edu>

> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:23:49 -0400,
> <brianc at temple.edu> wrote:
> 
>> I would like to get people's views on the best way to implement
>> verbosity (or any command-line option) into python scripts.

Command-line options are handled by the optparse module, part of python's
standard library as of python 2.3.  Python 2.2 had the older, somewhat less
flexible getopt module (which is still there in 2.3, of course).

Best,

f


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug 20 15:38:47 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:38:47 -0400
Subject: How to clean python interpreter's environment?
In-Reply-To: <2omtogFck37uU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <PPqVc.176$C7.35@amsnews05.chello.com>
	<jL6dnT9_ZqaFo7vcRVn-oQ@powergate.ca>
	<2omtogFck37uU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <kt2dneLcXdVTz7vcRVn-uw@powergate.ca>

Reinhold Birkenfeld wrote:

>>Rafal Kleger-Rudomin wrote:
>>
>>>I'm looking for a command to reset interpreter's environment i.e. unload 
>>>all modules, delete variables etc.
> 
> What about something like this:
> 
> def clear(keep=("__builtins__", "clear")):
>     keeps = {}
>     for name, value in globals().iteritems():
>         if name in keep: keeps[name] = value
>     globals().clear()
>     for name, value in keeps.iteritems():
>         globals()[name] = value

Well, that only removes all the references from the
globals of the current module.  Is that all that's
wanted?

Note that threads that are already running will not be
removed, nothing in sys.modules will be removed, and
there are doubtless a few other things in the interpreter
that aren't quite so easy to get at.

-Peter


From dummy at scriptolutions.com  Sun Aug  1 18:38:19 2004
From: dummy at scriptolutions.com (Lothar Scholz)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 00:38:19 +0200
Subject: SFTP  file transfer library
Message-ID: <l1sqg0dh4epuijglt3k4hmusduk1k75bq2@4ax.com>

Hello,

at the moment i have a program that uses FTP but some clients want to
use the FTP over SSH protocol. 

Is there a library that does this ?
And also where can i find the protocol specification. I never used SSH
very much and only know how to start a SSH shell from my windows
client.


From kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no  Sat Aug 28 09:22:44 2004
From: kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Torgrim Homme)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 15:22:44 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87hdqok9i6.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1rfz68ely9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<876574k7du.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1r3c28ejis.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<5MWXc.228027$ht5.11749427@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<1rhdqnd3rm.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<fm%Xc.228352$qk5.11718706@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
Message-ID: <1r8ybzcs7v.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>

[Roel Schroeven]:
>
>   Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote:
>   > when it's part of a large system, it's a bit harder.  also
>   > consider that the db.commit() originally was correctly placed by
>   > the programmer, and the wrong indentation was introduced later
>   > by an editing glitch.
>   
>   In that case, I agree it can be harder. But IMO it gets harder
>   with increasing code complexity, whether braces are used or not. I
>   haven't yet seen very complex python programs, but I have seen C
>   and C++ code with multiple nesting levels, and let me assure that
>   it can sometimes be very difficult to spot errors.

indeed, C or C++ is no better in this respect, quite the opposite IMO.
Paul McGuire illustrated the corresponding problem in C:

    db->update_name(person);

    if (is_student(person))
        log("update student %s", person->name);
        db->update_courses(person);
    db->commit();

I think it's harder to spot the bug here than in my Python example.
this doesn't mean Python can't be improved further :-)
-- 
Kjetil T.


From P at draigBrady.com  Tue Aug  3 09:57:05 2004
From: P at draigBrady.com (P at draigBrady.com)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 14:57:05 +0100
Subject: PyGTK overload
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1009.1091290166.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1001.1091265155.5135.python-list@python.org>	<410bb02e@sia.uibk.ac.at>
	<mailman.1009.1091290166.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <410F99B1.4020206@draigBrady.com>

Egbert Bouwman wrote:
> Glade is for later, when I am more comfortable with PyGTK.
> Or am I too conservative ?

Unless you need to construct the interface
at run time (for e.g. creating arrays of buttons),
just let libglade create the interface for you.
You gain nothing by doing this drudgery yourself.

P?draig.


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 07:59:39 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 07:59:39 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed204082621006f471de1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<cghslg$lao$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082600433e025140@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkjm5$3lb$2@sea.gmane.org>	<cgkprj$3lb$5@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826075738a8f6ca@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkur1$ehg$2@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608251b2830d8@mail.gmail.com>	<cgm0nt$epd$2@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed204082621006f471de1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cgn7n9$14o$2@sea.gmane.org>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:54:22 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>Anthony Baxter wrote:
>>Sure the interpreter uses __getitem__, but you use it too, right?  I
>>mean, you don't need the interpreter to tell you whether instances of
>>the following class can act like a dictionary, do you?
>>
>>    class Foo:
>>       def __getitem__(self, x): pass
> 
> 
> Well, actually, no. The presence or absence of __getitem__ "tells" you nothing.
> It depends on the implementation.
> 
> def __getitem__(self, key): raise AttributeError, '__getitem__'
> 

Oh my.

Following conventions helps readers tremendously. Once a pythonista 
learns a convention, he doesn't spend as long looking at code that 
(appears to) follow that convention.  He *assumes* that the convention 
means the same thing in the code he's reading as it does every else.

Good developers are sensitive to this.  Good developers write code that 
follows conventions.

One convention is that classes whose instances can return values via 
indexing (e.g. foo['x']) define the __getitem__ method.  /Because of 
this convention/, if we create a class that defines the __getitem__ 
method, our readers will expect that instances of that class can return 
values via indexing.

Of course this means that we can have some fun with our readers too.  We 
can create classes that define the __getitem__ method but which raise an 
exception when we try to use the syntax __getitem__ enables [*].  But 
while it may be fun to confuse readers of our code [**], its generally a 
bad idea.

We all know that conventions have meaning.  When we properly use 
conventions in our code, we are telling the reader a little (or in some 
cases a lot) about what is going on in our code, without us having to 
come right out and say it.  This saves us time.  This saves the reader 
time.  This improves the maintainability of our code.

So conventions are good.  And because of that, I propose the following 
as the 20th Zen principle:

     Conventional is better than unconventional.

Paul

* as you did in your example.

** by writing code that follows conventions but doesn't exhibit the 
associated conventional behavior.




From rtw at freenet.co.uk  Thu Aug  5 21:47:38 2004
From: rtw at freenet.co.uk (Rob Williscroft)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 01:47:38 GMT
Subject: Proposed improved decorator syntax
References: <mailman.1235.1091753699.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Xns953D1C498DEE3ukcoREMOVEfreenetrtw@130.133.1.4>

 wrote in news:mailman.1235.1091753699.5135.python-list at python.org in 
comp.lang.python:

> class foo:
>     def introduceNewFeature(self, someArgument, anotherArgument):
>         .decorate = [synchronized]
>         .accepts  = (int, int)
>         .author   = 'Chris King'
>         pass # whatever
> 
> 

AIUI it is intended that prefix '.' will be used at some point
with a 'with'/'using' keyword:

class Foo:
  def f( self ):
   with self:
    .member = value

But since we can have function's in function's and we already
have "special" member functions (__init__ etc):

class Foo:

  def method( self ):

    def __decorate__( func ):
      synchronized( func )

    __accepts__ = (int, int)
    __author__ = "whoever"

    pass

Rob.
-- 
http://www.victim-prime.dsl.pipex.com/


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 11:18:23 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:18:23 +1000
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>
	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>
	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:09:28 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> The function does *not* get a new namespace!  Let me stress this point a
> little further.  We would simply be moving __xxx__ variables *out of*
> the function's local variable namespace to where they belong, the
> namespace of the function itself --- /the same namespace that __doc__
> lives in./

There _is_ _no_ _such_ _namespace_. __doc__ is an attribute of the
function object.

You are proposing to add one. How else is __doc__ = __doc__ + 'extra' to work? 

Please, please look into how python's namespaces work a bit more. This
isn't super-complex stuff, and the lovely thing about Python is that
it's _really_ easy to use introspection to see how these things work.


From jacobsmail at postmark.net  Tue Aug 24 14:03:16 2004
From: jacobsmail at postmark.net (Jacob H)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 11:03:16 -0700
Subject: Getting at the bits of a 32-bit integer
References: <85b54e91.0408231552.75f85727@posting.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.23.20.16.40.406025@jerf.org>
	<412a98f4$0$65569$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<pan.2004.08.23.22.00.38.749194@jerf.org>
	<412aa5a0$0$68775$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<L8SdnepkCsRDV7fcRVn-vA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <85b54e91.0408241003.63ffe56c@posting.google.com>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message news:<L8SdnepkCsRDV7fcRVn-vA at powergate.ca>...
> Grant Edwards wrote:
> 
> >>If you're new to Python and you are twiddling bits, the odds
> >>favor the new user falsely importing old paradigms from other
> >>languages,
> > 
> > Probably so.
> 
> Especially as the OP didn't say he was trying to break apart
> Ethernet headers, serial data streams, or suchlike.  He just
> seems to want to grab a few bits for his own purposes, and
> like Jeremy I doubt that the need is real (though also like
> he I admit the possibility it could be!) and am quite curious
> to hear from the OP again...
> 
> -Peter

The truth is that I have zero need to fiddle with individual bits. I
just wanted to know how it was done.

And now I do know!

Jacob


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 02:24:56 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 16:24:56 +1000
Subject: [PATCH] RE: J2 decorator grammar
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408220135420.23441-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408220135420.23441-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082123245166d1e1@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 01:41:58 +0100 (BST), Michael Sparks
<zathras at thwackety.com> wrote:
> 
> The patch can be found here:
>    * http://thwackety.com/decorator_syntax_J2.patch

Good to see. There's a few more bits than this that need to be
done, though - see http://www.python.org/sf/979728 for the original
@decorator patch, this should show you what else needs to be
changed.


From agriff at tin.it  Sun Aug 22 20:28:29 2004
From: agriff at tin.it (Andrea Griffini)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 00:28:29 GMT
Subject: Has anyone implemented BASIC in Python?
References: <2oo13eFcj548U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <o6eii0h19pljd16shbfld7jdj7l2m7tc9m@4ax.com>

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:27:33 -0400, Leif K-Brooks
<eurleif at ecritters.biz> wrote:

>Has anyone ever tried implementing a simple unstructured BASIC dialect 
>in Python? I'm getting interested in language implementation, and 
>looking at a reasonably simple example like that could be pretty 
>interesting.

I've no idea why you think that an unstructured language would
be a good starting point. IMO a good starting point would be just
an expression parser; after than an interpreter that just executes
a parsed tree and finally a true compiler that generates elementar
instructions. Ugly non-structured languages are not going to be
that easier to implement IMO.

Anyway I found the idea of a BASIC interpreter in python intriguing,
so I wrote one this weekend. I wrote it for my egoistic fun, so
I'm not sure if it would be useful for you (or anyone else).

Anyway here we go... http://www.gripho.it/py_basic.tgz

Comments are welcome...

Andrea


From alanmk at hotmail.com  Sat Aug  7 08:43:10 2004
From: alanmk at hotmail.com (Alan Kennedy)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 13:43:10 +0100
Subject: jython and java exceptions
In-Reply-To: <slrnch2dqk.1h3.gregor.jan@ins1.opera.com>
References: <slrnch2dqk.1h3.gregor.jan@ins1.opera.com>
Message-ID: <g74Rc.24553$Z14.7458@news.indigo.ie>

[Jan Gregor]
>  I found that jython catches exact java exceptions, not their
> subclasses. Is there some way to get around this limitation (or error) ?

Hmm, not sure what you mean here. Consider the following code

#################
from java.io import FileInputStream
from java.io import IOException
from java.io import FileNotFoundException; # Subclasses IOException

dud_file_name = "does_not_exist.txt"

def open_file(filename):
   return FileInputStream(filename)

# For this function, we expect the FileNotFoundException clause
# to be executed, because it is listed first, and matches the
# exception precisely

def catch_subclass():
   try:
     f = open_file(dud_file_name)
     f.close()
   except FileNotFoundException, fnfx:
     print "Caught expected FileNotFoundException: %s" % str(fnfx)
   except IOException, iox:
     print "Error: should not have reached IOException clause"

# For this function, we expect the IOException clause to be
# executed, because it is listed first, and matches the exception,
# because FileNotFoundException is a subclass of IOException

def catch_superclass():
   try:
     f = open_file(dud_file_name)
     f.close()
   except IOException, iox:
     print "Caught expected IOException: %s" % str(iox)
   except FileNotFoundException, fnfx:
     print "Error: should not have reached FileNotFoundException clause"

if __name__ == "__main__":
   catch_subclass()
   catch_superclass()
########################

AFAICT, the above code demonstrates the correct behaviour for java 
exception handling in jython, and contradicts your statements above.

Perhaps you can post a code sample that shows what you mean?

>  My program has class representing database source and specialed classes
> for particulars databases. Now there are two options - to include
> exception (subclasses of SQLException) for every db in except (so
> all drivers has to be present) or to move methods to subclasses.

You should be able to catch all exceptions using code like this

try:
   # database operations
except java.sql.SqlException:
   # This will catch all SQLExceptions and subclasses.

-- 
alan kennedy
------------------------------------------------------
check http headers here: http://xhaus.com/headers
email alan:              http://xhaus.com/contact/alan


From dave at pythonapocrypha.com  Mon Aug 30 14:14:40 2004
From: dave at pythonapocrypha.com (Dave Brueck)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 12:14:40 -0600
Subject: Size of a remote URL
In-Reply-To: <cgvovp$1r1@odak26.prod.google.com>
References: <cgvovp$1r1@odak26.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <41336E90.2050507@pythonapocrypha.com>

Justin wrote:

> Ok.  I believe you are correct.  I have observed the two MODES of the
> download dialog box.  HOWEVER there are still some instances in which
> Internet Explorer knows the size of something that my code cannot
> determine.  So now I have this conclusion:  The instances where I
> cannot get the size but a browser can must exist because I am not
> asking the server the right question. 

Post a URL and I'll give it a try for you.

> Perhaps "Content-Length" is not
> included in the default headers, but the server will provide this
> header if it is asked too?

It's _possible_ that whether or not the content-length header is returned is 
affected by e.g. the protocol you say you're using (HTTP 1.0 vs 1.1, for 
example), but that wouldn't be my first guess.

> Maybe I need to ask for that header more
> specifically? 

No, there's not really any way to do that in HTTP.

> Also do you know of a simpler method than urlopen?

Sure, you can always use plain old sockets:

from socket import *
s = socket(AF_INET, SOCK_STREAM)
s.connect(('www.google.com', 80))
s.send('HEAD / HTTP/1.0\r\n\r\n')
while 1:
   more = s.recv(4096)
   if not more: break
   print more

-Dave


From brent.hughes at comcast.net  Sat Aug 28 15:09:53 2004
From: brent.hughes at comcast.net (Brent W. Hughes)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 19:09:53 GMT
Subject: Iteration over Lists and Strings
References: <cUSXc.56768$xi6.42946@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<mailman.2552.1093664310.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgpa73$oa5$1@news-reader2.wanadoo.fr>
	<1gj80xs.1cfownoqz4m9N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5M4Yc.326126$a24.276550@attbi_s03>


"Alex Martelli" <aleaxit at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1gj80xs.1cfownoqz4m9N%aleaxit at yahoo.com...
> Michel Claveau - abstraction m?ta-galactique non triviale en fuite
> perp?tuelle. <unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom> wrote:
>
> > and enumerate is more fast than index.
>
> Oh, absolutely.  sequence.index(anitem) takes time proportional to
> len(sequence), for the average item.  If you repeat that operation for
> all items in sequence, you end up with total time proportional to the
> SQUARE of len(sequence) -- a LOT, for long sequences,  enumerate itself
> takes constant time, and looping over all items that enumerate yields
> takes time proportional to the number of items (costant time per item).
>
> If you're familiar with big-O notation, we're talking O(N) vs O(N
> square)... not the kind of performance issue one can ignore, for long
> sequences, because the difference in performance keeps going up and up
> without bounds as the sequence grows longer.
>
>
> Alex


Did you say enumerate(seq) takes constant time?  I would have thought it was
proportional to len(seq).




From me at privacy.net  Mon Aug 16 12:10:47 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Richard Hanson)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:10:47 -0700
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<56cfb0e3.0408142004.511a8a8e@posting.google.com>
	<5hbvh0hnngn8sotqkgav3o1mvs61n039e5@4ax.com>
	<LIqdndjJz9MWob3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<klk1i05lshkrqs0s3o9cjcf5j9gbdmi85f@4ax.com>
	<l4OdnW0FkbilS73cRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <g0m1i0haa2ohuahlbfecasitsjmoe7qasi@4ax.com>

Peter Hansen wrote:

>Richard Hanson wrote:
>
>> [Re Python's indentation -- "Neat!" or "Yuck!"]
>> 
>> For the record, my first reaction to *braces* years ago, was:
>> "Yuck!"
>
>That was my reaction as well, but my sister really needed
>them as her teeth weren't straight at all.

Ha!

(I can almost remember when I used to *have* teeth...)

 :-D

laughing-out-loud-heartily y'rs,
Richard

-- 
R Hanson [The mangled email addie below works.]
sick<P0INT>ole<PERI0D>fart<PIE_DEC0_SYNTAX>newsguy<MARK>com


From robey at slash_dev_slash_random.org  Wed Aug 18 19:17:32 2004
From: robey at slash_dev_slash_random.org (Robey Holderith)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:17:32 -0500
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.18.23.17.32.635094@slash_dev_slash_random.org>

Not yet, but our day will come.



From vincent at visualtrans.de  Fri Aug  6 15:36:46 2004
From: vincent at visualtrans.de (vincent wehren)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 21:36:46 +0200
Subject: unicode to ascii converting
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1296.1091813051.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1296.1091813051.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cf0mke$b0b$1@news5.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>

Peter Wilkinson wrote:
> Hello tlistmembers,
> 
> I am using the encoding function to convert unicode to ascii. At one 
> point this code was working just fine, however, now it has broken.
> 
> I am reading a text file that has is in unicode (I am unsure of which 
> flavour or bit depth). as I read in the file one line at a time 
> (readlines()) it converts to ascii. Simple enough. At the same time I am 
> copressing to bz2 with the bz2 module but that works just fine.  The 
> code is and error reported appears below. I am unsure what to do.
> 
> I assume that because it is reporting that ordinal is not in range, that 
> something to do with the character width that I am reading?
> 
> Peter W.
> 
> def encode_file(file_path, encode_type, compress='N'):
>     """
>     Changes encoding of file
>     """
>     new_encode = encode_type
>     old_file_path = file_path + '.old'
>     new_file_path = file_path
>     os.rename(file_path,old_file_path)
>     file_in  = file(old_file_path,'r')
> 
>     if compress == 'Y' or compress == 'y':
>         bz_file_path = file_path + '.bz2'
>         bz_file_out  = bz2.BZ2File(bz_file_path, 'w')
>         for line in file_in.readlines():
>             bz_file_out.write(line.encode(new_encode))
>         bz_file_out.close()
> 
>     else:
>         file_out = file(file_path,'w')
>         for line in file_in.readlines():
>             file_out.write(line.encode(new_encode))
>         file_out.close()
> 
>     file_in.close()
>     os.remove(old_file_path)
> 
> ERROR Reported:
> 
> Parsing 
> X:\GenomeQuebec_repository\microarray\HIS\M15K\Step_1_repository\HISH0224.txt 
> 
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "C:\Program Files\ActiveState Komodo 2.5\callkomodo\kdb.py", line 
> 433, in _do_start
>     self.kdb.run(code_ob, locals, locals)
>   File "C:\Python23\lib\bdb.py", line 350, in run
>     exec cmd in globals, locals
>   File "C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\xBio\Scripts\unicodeToAscii.py", 
> line 158, in ?
>     main()
>   File "C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\xBio\Scripts\unicodeToAscii.py", 
> line 75, in main
>     encode_file(fileToProcess, options.encode,  'Y')
>   File "C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\xBio\Scripts\unicodeToAscii.py", 
> line 144, in encode_file
>     bz_file_out.write(line.encode(new_encode))
> UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xff in position 0: 
> ordinal not in range(128)
> 

0xff in position 0? If there is a 0xfe is in position 1, I would suspect 
your dealing with the Byte Order Mark for a UTF-16 encoded file (UTF-16 
LE to be precise). What happens if you skip the first 2 bytes of the file?

--
Vincent Wehren




From P at draigBrady.com  Mon Aug 16 06:51:47 2004
From: P at draigBrady.com (P at draigBrady.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:51:47 +0100
Subject: sys.stdin.read() replacement
In-Reply-To: <slrnci13co.fh8.karin.lagesen@uracil.uio.no>
References: <slrnci13co.fh8.karin.lagesen@uracil.uio.no>
Message-ID: <412091C3.4000609@draigBrady.com>

Karin Lagesen wrote:
> I am writing a small write-logfile script for use on the terminal. I have here
> a section where the user should be able to type in several lines. I have solved
> it so far by using sys.stdin.read(), which makes it possible to type in several
> lines (separated by enter) and then terminate the session by typing ^D. This is
> all very good. However, with this it is only possible to edit the line you are
> in. If you spot an error further up in your text, you cannot get at it. Do any
> of you know of a way I can do this? 


import readline

(I don't know if it works on windos)

P?draig.


From krueger at k-dns.de  Sun Aug  8 15:01:15 2004
From: krueger at k-dns.de (Thomas =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kr=FCger?=)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 21:01:15 +0200
Subject: What is @ used for?
References: <cf5rqa$c03$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <cf5ta7$eot$00$1@news.t-online.com>

Darren Dale wrote:

> I was looking through Pybliographer's source yesterday, and I dont
> recognize this syntax:
> 
> version  = "@version@"
> progname = "@package@"


It looks like a special string used by an external application working with
the source code.
CVS for example replaces (better expands) some keywords between $ characters
with information like version, author or history.
AFAIK there is no special meaning in Python.

Thomas




From cybermanxu at hotmail.com  Wed Aug  4 12:25:55 2004
From: cybermanxu at hotmail.com (Jinming Xu)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 11:25:55 -0500
Subject: How to force a single number to be a tuple
Message-ID: <BAY9-F59lwDZ6WPRZsY0003af3b@hotmail.com>

Hi Folks,

I have a number sequence, which is put into a tuple like this:

y=2, 3.0, 4.5

I can manipulate the sequence as a tuple when it has more than 1 number. But 
when the sequence has only 1 number, like

y=2

I have trouble to manipulate it as a tuple.  I guess there must be a way to 
forece a single number to be a tuple. Could anyone please tell me that?

Thanks,

Jinming

_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar ? get it now! 
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/



From daniel at syrinx.net  Fri Aug 13 08:54:49 2004
From: daniel at syrinx.net (Daniel Ellison)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 08:54:49 -0400
Subject: Flython?
In-Reply-To: <YYadna8XbYZiMoHcRVn-sA@powergate.ca>
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121608180.11006-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<CISdnRTssu4zrYHcRVn-ow@powergate.ca>
	<2o3ovjF6apnoU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<YYadna8XbYZiMoHcRVn-sA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <2o3rtmF6apnoU2@uni-berlin.de>

Peter Hansen wrote:

> Daniel Ellison wrote:
> 
>> I *like* "Flython" as a name! :) A flying python! I can see the logo 
>> now...
> 
> 
> So does that mean we would have "Monty Flython's @Pie-ing Circus"

BaDA-ba. Well, we definitely already have the @Pie-ing Circus here. All 
we need now is Monty Flython.

> if the @decorator debate is still going on by the time someone
> implements a Flash compiler for Python?

By the time /someone/ implements a compiler? I thought that someone was 
going to be you! Damn this full-time contract. We could have paired on 
Flython.

Dan


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 28 04:45:24 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 10:45:24 +0200
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xzn4gwgea.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7a1o.1a5d2q410jsn2kN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xisb4xnh5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7c1a.tfdm14p3hclcN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xd61benm9.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj82n3.1ylkr3nierngmN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7x4qmnvgcu.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <1gj859v.ctjokn1lgorodN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:

> aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:
> > Would it make sense to rely on a naming convention instead?
> > I.e. foo.zip would be unsigned but bar.jar would have to be signed
> > or else no go.  This would have the advantage of allowing
> > substantial granularity in controlling this.
> 
> I think this is reasonable, except what does the import statement look
> like?  Do you say something like "import frob from bar.jar"?

No, you say, as always:

    import frob

Importing looks at each item on sys.path, and each item can be:

1. a directory X -- then import looks for X/frob.py or a subdirectory
    X/frob/ containing an __init__.py (or in either case .pyc or .pyo)

2. a zipfile X.zip -- then import looks inside (unsigned) file X.zip for
    a frob.py, frob.pyc, etc

3. [only novelty...] a signed zipfile X.jar -- then import verifies the
    signature then if valid proceed as in 2


> > Side question, does module zipfile already have the code to allow
> > reading such signed files?  
> 
> I think jar files are just zip files containing an extra file (called
> "manifest") that has signatures in it.  So you can import from a jar
> as if it were a zip.

But it might be nice to check signatures automatically if reading such
files is a common task.


Alex


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 13:37:07 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 03:37:07 +1000
Subject: Confused about pep 318
In-Reply-To: <e86dnZBJM6_n84_cRVn-jA@powergate.ca>
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>	<mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org>	<d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>	<mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051249050.10473-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1210.1091725930.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<e86dnZBJM6_n84_cRVn-jA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040805103714059c60@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 13:29:29 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> I'll make another donation to PSF if the final decorator syntax
> does not Perlishly use arbitrary punctuation as the @ syntax does.

FFS. What exactly is "Perlish" about @? It's an unused symbol. That's all.


From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug  9 01:34:09 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 09 Aug 2004 05:34:09 GMT
Subject: how many bytes in an int
References: <9ACRc.1523$bJ2.9739@news1.mts.net>
	<4116f8ee$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<FADRc.1532$bJ2.9871@news1.mts.net>
Message-ID: <41170cd1$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-09, Reid Nichol <rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com> wrote:

>> I suspect you want to use the "struct" module -- but it's a
>> guess, since you haven't really said what it is you're trying
>> to accomplish.
>
> I'm thinking of writing a movie file encoder (probably avi).
> So, I need to output DWORD (lookup revealed its a 4-byte int)
> to a binary file.  Therefore I need to know whether this can
> be done in python or not, which will tell me whether I'll try
> to do it or not.
>
> But, since the 64-bit archecture is out, short, long, etc may
> change there meanings quite soon.  From what I've read in the
> struct module docs I can only tell it that it's a short, long,
> etc. but not whether it's exactly a 4-byte int.  Is there a
> way to do this?

The struct module is the only thing I know about.  If you're
worried about the "C" types in the struct module changing
underneat you, you could do a pure Python implimentation of
"python-int" to/from DWORD. It's utterly trivial and shouldn't
take more than one or two lines of code.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  LOOK!!! I'm WALKING
                                  at               in my SLEEP again!!
                               visi.com            


From cbfalconer at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 31 12:49:36 2004
From: cbfalconer at yahoo.com (CBFalconer)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 16:49:36 GMT
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4PGdnfsOfdDPi63cRVn-tA@speakeasy.net>
	<slrncj1745.t5q.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<41337FC9.8070902@hotmail.com>
	<slrncj7hhh.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<p7v7j0plcfbden593l1irfprmfkp4d3k51@4ax.com>
	<slrncj8m5n.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<%T%Yc.29567$Es2.11957889@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<du7k6vfnvx9.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>
Message-ID: <4134AC88.56452265@yahoo.com>

Ville Vainio wrote:
>> "John" == John W Kennedy <jwkenne at attglobal.net> writes:
> 
>> Yes, and also a single-process pipe emulator.  Ever since
>> 2.0, MS has been trying to turn MS-DOS (later, Windows) into
>> a Unix clone.
> 
> With very little success. Notepad still only understands cr-lf
> line breaks, and / as path separator still screws up most of their
> cmd line programs (which think / is for command line options).
> 
> Microsoft probably thought avoiding compatibility is a good idea,
> and have only lately started to have some regrets, visible as the
> release & future integration of SFU. Migrating ppl from Unix
> probably *is* easier when you are not doing your best to make
> interoperability as painful as possible.

Dump Notepad and get Textpad.  www.textpad.com.  First class.

-- 
"Churchill and Bush can both be considered wartime leaders, just
 as Secretariat and Mr Ed were both horses." -     James Rhodes.
"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad
 morals.  We now know that it is bad economics" -         FDR



From roy at panix.com  Wed Aug 25 08:07:50 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:07:50 -0400
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<roy-37CEFC.10153622082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<3064b51d.0408221352.ca7b57e@posting.google.com>
	<tyfpt5fppfi.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
Message-ID: <roy-252010.08075025082004@reader1.panix.com>

Jacek Generowicz <jacek.generowicz at cern.ch> wrote:
>> (2) The Python approach to OOP is very different -- looser -- than
>> that of C++ and has less support for data hiding. For example, one can
>> add an attribute to an object anywhere, which seems like a dubious
>> freedom to me.
> 
> Seems like a damn useful freedom to me. But then I've worked with
> people who refused to take the obvious clean, efficent, clear design
> decision only because it violated some principle they were told about
> in some OOA&D class

Yeah, tell me about it.  We had a really smart young guy who grew up on 
C++ and was convinced that C++ was the be-all and end-all of OOP.  He 
told me flat out that Python was not an OOPL because it didn't have 
private data.  Of course, he never actually tried Python, because he 
"just couldn't get past the whole indenting thing".

Then he quit and took a higher paying job with a big financial company 
maintaining legacy Fortran code.  Go figure.


From secun at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 17 14:13:43 2004
From: secun at yahoo.com (ChrisH)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 18:13:43 GMT
Subject: Editors again
References: <cfrbse$j8n$1@bagan.srce.hr> <cft8gn$gjhm$1@swen.emba.uvm.edu>
Message-ID: <MPG.1b8c14fce7193113989688@news2.atlantic.net>

Doesn't it cost around $3000 for a Qt license to run the program?



From rtw at freenet.co.uk  Wed Aug 25 13:11:51 2004
From: rtw at freenet.co.uk (Rob Williscroft)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 17:11:51 GMT
Subject: Unpythonic Python
References: <8a638f47.0408240034.653a92ff@posting.google.com>
	<zn4lvsib.fsf@python.net>
	<8a638f47.0408240700.13c39f57@posting.google.com>
	<uzn4j2s38.fsf@boost-consulting.com>
	<Xns9550A6C7E36FFukcoREMOVEfreenetrtw@130.133.1.4>
	<uy8k31as1.fsf@boost-consulting.com>
Message-ID: <Xns9550B8F61B65EukcoREMOVEfreenetrtw@130.133.1.4>

David Abrahams wrote in news:uy8k31as1.fsf at boost-consulting.com in
comp.lang.python: 

> Rob Williscroft <rtw at freenet.co.uk> writes:
> 
>> David Abrahams wrote in news:uzn4j2s38.fsf at boost-consulting.com in
>> comp.lang.python: 
>>
>>>> That's not the problem.  I can download the file reliably from
>>>> other machines. 
>>
>> At the same time, using http ?
> 
> I can download the file reliably using IE from my WinXP box.
> 
> I can download the file reliably using urllib from Cygwin Python 2.3.2
> 
> The 2nd element returned by urlretrieve is 

Which version, the one that works or the one that doesn't ?

> 
>   'Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:50:17 GMT\r\nServer: Apache/2.0.40 (Red
>   Hat Linux)\r\nLast-Modified: Wed, 25 Aug 20 2 GMT\r\nETag:

Something is missing here:

  Last-Modified: Wed, 25 Aug 20 2 GMT

Contrast:

  Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:50:17 GMT

>   "b63d5b-20ec84b-18057e80"\r\nAccept-Ranges: bytes\r\nContent-Length:
>   34523211\r\nContent-Type: n/x-bzip2\r\nConnection: close\r\n'

34 MB's ( I got 6 MB's )

>>> Trying again with Python 2.3 on Cygwin.
> 
> As you can see from the above, it works.  Is there a known urllib bug
> in earlier Pythons?

Sorry I don't know, but I've seen the same truncation with no python,
and no unix.
 
>> Is it possible the file is being (re) uploaded (via cvs) during your 
>> cron job's download, thus truncating your download ?
> 
> I don't think so.

Can you test wether or not this is happening ? I.e if you don't
get the full 34523211 bytes re-download and compare the above
Length, ETag and Last-Modified.

> 
>> Perhapse you should change to cvs:
>>
>>   os.system( 'cvs ... ' )
> 
> The problem with that is that I want to capture the whole CVS
> history, not just today's state.

I was suggesting you get the tarball via cvs, though presumably
sourceforge don't give you the option. http has the problem that
the server will just truncate the download if the source file
gets replaced.

> 
>> FWIW, I tried downlading with IE using the link above I got a
>> truncated 6 and bit MB's (16:15 BST (UTC +0100)).
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Sorry, what does that mean?  Did it show that message in a dialog,
> or...?
> 

No, I got a download complete, but the file was only 6 MB's, bzip2 -t 
told me the file was truncated, the (16:15 ...) is the time I tried
downloading, BST = British Summer Time, though you wouldn't know it 
from the weather :).

Further I just ran:

import urllib

filename, headers = \
    urllib.urlretrieve(
        'http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cvstarballs/boost-cvsroot.tar.bz2', 
        'boost-cvsroot.tar.bz2')

print filename

print headers

boost-cvsroot.tar.bz2
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:53:20 GMT
Server: Apache/2.0.40 (Red Hat Linux)
Last-Modified: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:14:02 GMT
ETag: "b63d5b-20ec84b-18057e80"
Accept-Ranges: bytes
Content-Length: 34523211
Content-Type: application/x-bzip2
Connection: close

The script ended at 17::59 BST, Note the difference bettween the two
times in the headers, suggesting the file was modified 1:45 min's
ago ~ the same time my attempted download with IE failed.

Rob.
-- 
http://www.victim-prime.dsl.pipex.com/


From John.Marshall at ec.gc.ca  Tue Aug 31 09:40:47 2004
From: John.Marshall at ec.gc.ca (John Marshall)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 13:40:47 +0000
Subject: [IronPython] Jim Hugunin's web log.
In-Reply-To: <278de0e.0408302346.62cfc40b@posting.google.com>
References: <mailman.2627.1093893089.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<x4udnSFnNtVUW67cRVn-qQ@speakeasy.net> 
	<278de0e.0408302346.62cfc40b@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1093959648.3331.18.camel@mango.cmc.ec.gc.ca>

On Tue, 2004-08-31 at 07:46, Neuruss wrote:
> As for the concerns about Microsoft "hijacking" python, I think they
> probable go too far. We all know what MS did in the past, but this
> time, I think they shifted their policies drastically.
> 
> There's a whole move of opening their source and submitting standards
> that confirm that their new strategy is stabilishing .NET as "the"
> platform.

I'll believe they have changed after a decade of proof.

Skeptical.

John




From brent.hughes at comcast.net  Wed Aug 25 18:01:24 2004
From: brent.hughes at comcast.net (Brent W. Hughes)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:01:24 GMT
Subject: Proposal for removing self
Message-ID: <T_7Xc.61360$Fg5.2281@attbi_s53>

When doing object-oriented stuff, it bothers me to have to type "self" so
many times.  I propose that Python allow the programmer to optionally type
".variable" instead of "self.variable" to mean the same thing.  Of course,
the interpreter would have to be more careful about detecting floats that
begin with just a period as in ".5".  What are your thoughts?




From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Aug 25 06:43:04 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:43:04 +0200
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
Message-ID: <cghqfo$n1s$01$1@news.t-online.com>

Martin DeMello wrote:

> Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:26:26 GMT, Martin DeMello
>> <martindemello at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > It seems to be a fairly common pattern for an object-modifying method
>> > to return None - however, this is often quite inconvenient.
>> 
>> list.reverse() modifies the list in place. The python idiom is that
>> these don't return a reference to the modified list. Although note the
> 
> Yes, but why? I mean, is there either an advantage to returning None or
> some inherent danger in returning self?
> 
> martin

I think Guido would rather have newbies stumbling over

>>> a = list("abc")
>>> zip(a, a.reverse())
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
TypeError: zip argument #2 must support iteration

than

>>> class List(list):
...     def reverse(self):
...             list.reverse(self)
...             return self
...
>>> a = List("abc")
>>> zip(a, a.reverse())
[('c', 'c'), ('b', 'b'), ('a', 'a')]

The latter is more likely to remain undetected until some damage is done.
Still, I would prefer it.

Peter



From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 19:07:04 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:07:04 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: winnowing down the keyword list (WAS: Re: J2 paper 0.2.1)
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E59@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <loom.20040825T005537-9@post.gmane.org>

Robert Brewer <fumanchu <at> amor.org> writes:
> Any proposal to winnow down the list is eagerly accepted. :)

Yeah, so my understanding was that the point of leaving the keyword argument 
unresolved was that we were trusting in Guido to choose a reasonable keyword.  
I haven't vetoed any of the keywords that I don't like because I'm reasonably 
confident that Guido won't choose any of these keywords.  (That and I am, like 
many others here, burning out on decorator arguments...)

That being said, I think Robert has the right approach here -- if there are 
any keywords you absolutely couldn't tolerate, point them out and if no one 
objects, hopefully we can remove them from the list.  Then we can be left with 
a few keywords that most of us believe are better than @, and then let Guido 
make the final decision.

I guess my point here is that I don't think we need to narrow down the options 
to only one choice (but there's certainly nothing wrong with narrowing down 
the options if you have good reasons).

Steve



From faizans at gmail.com  Sun Aug 15 21:32:07 2004
From: faizans at gmail.com (Fazer)
Date: 15 Aug 2004 18:32:07 -0700
Subject: [ANN] libgmail 0.0.1 -- Gmail access via Python
References: <3c18c08f.0407011159.9243ee1@posting.google.com>
	<6491b0ab.0407241411.2fa426b3@posting.google.com>
	<3c18c08f.0408100601.2f45aa5a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <6491b0ab.0408151732.15773a8@posting.google.com>

follower at gmail.com (Follower) wrote in message news:<3c18c08f.0408100601.2f45aa5a at posting.google.com>...
> Hi Fazer,
> 
> Thanks for your feedback.
> 
> faizans at gmail.com (Fazer) wrote in message news:<6491b0ab.0407241411.2fa426b3 at posting.google.com>...
> > [Snip]
> > Is it possible to delete an email using this library?
> I hope you don't mind me delaying the answer to this question until I
> could answer in the affirmative. (Rather than promising vapourware...
> :-) )
> 
> I have just committed code into CVS to enable message and thread
> trashing functionality. (It will appear in the 0.0.8 release.) The new
> `GmailAccount` methods `trashMessage` and `trashThread` will move a
> message or thread into the trash.
> 
> I intend to add functionality to permanently delete items & mark items
> as spam in the future, but it's not there yet.
>  
> Hope this is useful.
> 
> --Phil.

Hey Phil,

I was wondering if you would also plan on writing some sort of
documentation/manual for your very nifty library?  That would really
help others a lot.  Do you need help with it?  Maybe I can lend a hand
if you need it.

Thanks,

Fazer


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Aug 28 05:44:19 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 05:44:19 -0400
Subject: Question about references/copies
References: <pan.2004.08.28.07.52.35.422774@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <cgpk5l$uki$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Henning Kage" <c0dec at gmx.de> wrote in message 
news:pan.2004.08.28.07.52.35.422774 at gmx.de...
> I'm using Python only for some months now and I'm wondering, whether such
> assignments as above are creating bitwise copies of an object or just
> recieve a reference. That means I wanted to know, wheter Python in 
> general
> differs between references and copies:

Better to think of Python this way: it has objects and bindings of objects 
to one or more targets (names and slots of composite objects).  Binding 
statements (target = expression) always and only assign targets to objects.

Terry J. Reedy





From exarkun at divmod.com  Sun Aug 29 20:30:48 2004
From: exarkun at divmod.com (Jp Calderone)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 20:30:48 -0400
Subject: cPickle and __getattr__
In-Reply-To: <ChuYc.2094$w%6.858@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>
References: <ChuYc.2094$w%6.858@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <41327538.7020204@divmod.com>

Chris Curvey wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I have this program
> 
> class Company:
>    def __init__(self, revenues, costs):
>       self.revenues = revenues
>       self.costs = costs
> 
>    def __getattr__(self, name):
>        if name == 'profits':
>            return self.revenues - self.costs
> 
> c = Company(100, 75)
> print c.revenues
> print c.costs
> print c.profits
> 
> import cPickle
> print cPickle.dumps(c)
> 
> Everything works fine up until the last line.  If I remove the 
> __getattr__ function, then everything works (except "print c.profits"). 
>  What is the cPickle class trying to get to that is causing my 
> __getattr__ function to be called?
> 

   Potentially lots of things.  But the problem isn't that cPickle is 
calling __getattr__, exactly.  The problem is that your __getattr__ 
isn't properly signalling non-existent attributes.  You should raise 
AttributeError instead of implicitly returning None for which there is 
no attribute.  Adding "raise AttributeError(name)" to the end of the 
definition unbreaks it enough to let pickle work.

   Jp



> -Chris
> 



From dbickett at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 10:45:48 2004
From: dbickett at gmail.com (Beeyah)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 07:45:48 -0700
Subject: advice for perl expert wanting to learn python
References: <slrncguga2.fcp.mordor@fly.srk.fer.hr>
	<cevpef$bku$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
	<xqxacx8l6rk.fsf@cola2.ca.boeing.com>
Message-ID: <1d6cdae3.0408240645.727059b7@posting.google.com>

Harry George <harry.g.george at boeing.com> wrote in message news:<xqxacx8l6rk.fsf at cola2.ca.boeing.com>...
> For experienced scripters, I find Beazley's "Python Essential
> Reference" is excellent.  You already know what you want, just need to
> see how Python does it, and don't need a lot of handholding.  Get a
> copy of "Python Cookbook" too, and scan that.  Then rewrite one of
> your exsiting perl scripts.

OTOH, It should be a crime to purchase the Python Developer's Handbook
[1]. I'm glad I only paid six dollars for a used copy, because its a
load of crap.

[1] http://makeashorterlink.com/?H10123029


From tismer at stackless.com  Fri Aug  6 09:24:24 2004
From: tismer at stackless.com (Christian Tismer)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 15:24:24 +0200
Subject: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was Decorator syntax)
In-Reply-To: <6LWdnZCpvI7Ico_cRVn-hw@giganews.com>
References: <6LWdnZCpvI7Ico_cRVn-hw@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <41138688.1020406@stackless.com>

Istvan Albert wrote:

...

> Ladies and Gents, start your engines and rally around
> this syntax (if you prefer it of course) so that there
> is evidence that it should be taken as a serious candidate.

You have my full support.
Although I'm not sure if we still have an option
to choose at all.

+1

-- 
Christian Tismer             :^)   <mailto:tismer at stackless.com>
Mission Impossible 5oftware  :     Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a     :    *Starship* http://starship.python.net/
14109 Berlin                 :     PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/
work +49 30 89 09 53 34  home +49 30 802 86 56  mobile +49 173 24 18 776
PGP 0x57F3BF04       9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619  305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04
      whom do you want to sponsor today?   http://www.stackless.com/



From cjw at sympatico.ca  Sun Aug  8 15:58:04 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 15:58:04 -0400
Subject: Decorators
In-Reply-To: <ad052e5c.0408071826.29f1bfb0@posting.google.com>
References: <%A8Rc.50217$Vm1.1280580@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<ad052e5c.0408071826.29f1bfb0@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <9BvRc.3638$a65.105727@news20.bellglobal.com>

Dan Bishop wrote:
> "Colin J. Williams" <cjw at sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<%A8Rc.50217$Vm1.1280580 at news20.bellglobal.com>...
> 
>>Christopher T. King suggested that "we're trying to kill too many birds 
>>with one stone".
>> 
>>http://groups.google.com/groups?q=stone+birds+group:comp.lang.python&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=Pine.LNX.4.44.0408050856390.31290-100000%40ccc9.wpi.edu&rnum=1
>>
>>He goes on to suggest three needs which decorators serve.  Are these the 
>>only purposes which are envisaged for decorators?
> 
> 
> If I understand correctly, they'd be useful for anything where you'd
> now use the syntax
> 
> function = decorator(function)
> 
> In addition to @staticmethod, you could have decorators for
> 
> (1) Memoization.  Makes repeated function evaluation more efficient
> without having to rewrite the function.
> 
> class memoize(object):
>    def __init__(self, func):
>       self.__func = func
>       self.__results = {}
>    def __call__(self, *args):
>       if args not in self.__results:
>          self.__results[args] = self.__func(*args)
>       return self.__results[args]
> 
> def fibonacci(n):
>    @memoize
>    if n in (0, 1):
>       return n
>    return fibonacci(n - 1) + fibonacci(n - 2)
> 
> (2) Debugging uses, like:
> 
> class printreturns(object):
>    "Behaves like f but prints its return values."
>    def __init__(self, f):
>       self.__f = f
>    def __call__(self, *args):
>       result = self.__f(*args)
>       if debug:
>          print 'f%r = %r' % (args, result)
>       return 
> 
> def somefunc(x, y):
>    @printreturns
>    ...

Dan,
Many thanks for this, the examples helped to clarify things.

I've attached a script which shows a significant time benefit for 
memoize.  Also, it shows about a 24% reduction in the elapsed time
as compared with version 2.3.

I had expected that the unwrapped version of fibonacci would be
better than the recursive method as it avoided the overhead of
function calls.  This test shows the reverse.

Colin W.
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From shalabh at cafepy.com  Tue Aug 17 16:07:41 2004
From: shalabh at cafepy.com (Shalabh Chaturvedi)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:07:41 -0700
Subject: favorite python web development tool?
In-Reply-To: <10i4nttktcvltdd@corp.supernews.com>
References: <10i4nttktcvltdd@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <cftofq$n2h$1@sea.gmane.org>

mike wrote:
> hi all -
> 
> 
> i'm fairly new to python, coming from a java servlet / velocity template 
> background.  i'm looking for a good python web development tool, and 
> hope to find some suggestions here.
> 
> given my background, webware+cheetah feels comfortingly familiar, and 
> i'm leaning toward it.  before i dive in, though, i'm wondering what you 
> experienced users think about it, compared to the other tools that are 
> out there.  eg, does the python environment have strengths that are 
> better exploited with something other than a servlet-like model?
> 
> 
> thanks for your thoughts!
> 
> 

My favourite is Quixote. Although I haven't used Webware much one thing 
I can say is that Quixote is easier to grasp than Webware. It has simple 
and powerful concepts and as a Python programmer I found it quite 
intuitive. I think Quixote PTL (Python Template Language) is also the 
'right way' to do web templates. With PTL, you reuse a lot of Python 
knowledge instead of having to learn yet another template language.

Links:
http://www.mems-exchange.org/software/quixote/
http://www.quixote.ca/

--
Shalabh



From cemerick at snowtide.com  Wed Aug 18 10:36:08 2004
From: cemerick at snowtide.com (Chas Emerick)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 10:36:08 -0400
Subject: Python-list Digest, Vol 11, Issue 288
In-Reply-To: <20040818130058.808391E400B@bag.python.org>
References: <20040818130058.808391E400B@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <F1B54A3E-F123-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>


On Aug 18, 2004, at 9:00 AM, Gerrit Muller wrote:

> how many teeners are still programming? Most teeners I know build
> websites, but they don't program.

Well, does it count if I *feel* like I'm 19 still?  I'm 24 now 
(yikes!), although I did brush up against python when I was 17 (I was 
just starting an undergrad AI/cog. sci. program, so I went to lisp at 
that point instead).

- Chas Emerick



From heikowu at ceosg.de  Mon Aug  9 14:41:06 2004
From: heikowu at ceosg.de (Heiko Wundram)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 20:41:06 +0200
Subject: Purely emotional perspective
In-Reply-To: <XqSdnTW-4KvRIIrcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
References: <10hf3oaltbo7o74@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1400.1092070428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<XqSdnTW-4KvRIIrcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <200408092041.06021.heikowu@ceosg.de>

Am Montag, 9. August 2004 20:07 schrieb Peter Hansen:
> Heiko Wundram wrote:
> > The docstring of a function actually is only meta-data (in my taste), and
> > thus should remain inside the function definition.
>
> This argument makes no sense to me.  Why should any meta-data be inside
> the function body?  There should probably be one place where all
> meta-data is defined, and it should be used consistently for everything,
> docstrings included.  (The pie-syntaxians are heading that way, it
> seems.)

Basically, what I was trying to say:

decorators aren't necessarily meta-data. decorators may return a new function 
object which does something different than the actual function in question. 
Thus, you could divide decorators into two categories:

1) mutating decorators, which change the function object to be a new function 
(and thus introduce new functionality),

2) "decorating" decorators, which add information to the presented function 
object.

Docstrings are a decorator which falls into category 2, the example I gave 
falls into category 1. What my argument basically was:

Decorators which fall into category 2 may safely be hidden from the 
programmer, as they only give "meta-information" on the function in question, 
and don't change it's behavior, whereas decorators which fall into category 1 
may not be hidden from the programmer, as they change the functions behavior, 
and are thus important for understanding the function in question when 
reading the code.

Now, what I'd like to see (hypothetically) is to have decorators which mutate 
the function before the actual function, because they are "equivalent" to 
defining a function, whereas decorators which do "decorating" inside the 
function body (like the doc-string), because they are equivalent to setting 
an attribute on the function.

Now, certainly, making a distinction between the two is inappropriate, as it 
would only complicate code, but "hiding" mutating decorators inside the 
function body is also not the right way to go, so for me, it's clear that 
decorators should always be outside the function body.

But, I hold no grudge against keeping the doc-string inside the actual 
function (because this actually is meta-data, it has no influence on running 
the function), so the following is out of the question for me:

@doc("my doc-string")
def f():
	<blah>

> To tell the truth, I think I prefer the current approach, where the
> function is clearly, explicitly decorated *after* it has been defined,
> and no new syntax is required.

True, I use this approach a lot. But decorating a function with a clear sign 
before the actual method (@<somedecorator>) only makes the code more readable 
for me. As I've stated elsewhere, I've ported some code of mine to use 
decorators for 2.4, and I've really felt that the code became quite a bit 
more readable just by having this little bit of syntactic sugar.

> Python is clearly on a huge evolutionary surge and conservative views
> on the matter are definitely not winning out right now.

And that's fine. :-) Conservatism never did anybody any good. ;-)

Anyway, hope that clears up my position...

Heiko.


From yangzhangbuffalo at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 16 22:49:23 2004
From: yangzhangbuffalo at hotmail.com (Yang Zhang)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:49:23 -0500
Subject: mailman mailing list program
References: <PPidncd3ycQ1mbzcRVn-gg@comcast.com>
	<cfrlid$1f8c$1@agate.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY24-DAV135EFk2H3b0001e495@hotmail.com>

Hi all,
       I wonder if it is possible to create an object of func, class or
method in the run time by it's name? To make it more clear, let me show you
an example: I parsed the python code and found a function with name 'len'. I
want to know if it is a build-in func(where can I look up?). If so, ignore
it otherwise I want to find out which module is it defined in. All I know is
the name (which is a string), and all the modules that this program have
imported. In the same way, I also need to process the class and methods
call. I wonder if it is possible? I will appreciate your help very much!!

-Ryan


From Ian.Sparks at etrials.com  Tue Aug 17 10:11:56 2004
From: Ian.Sparks at etrials.com (Ian Sparks)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:11:56 -0400
Subject: Databases: Getting values by column name
Message-ID: <41A1CBC76FDECC42B67946519C6677A901915270@pippin.int.etrials.com>

Robert Ferber Wrote...
> Is there a way to use them as dictionaries, ie with 
> Index-Strings (=column
> names) as indexes?

I've had some success with Dtuple :

http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/81252

Some database adapters supply a dictionary interface as an extension to the DBAPI 2.0 (the MySQL adapter comes to mind as an example).

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Ferber [mailto:rob at nospam.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 9:53 AM
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Databases: Getting values by column name
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I can't find any good documentation about the Python-database 
> module, all I
> found was this rudimentary (no examples, no references) piece here:
> 
> http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0249.html
> 
> Anyway, this and also this tutorial here:
> 
> http://www.devshed.com/c/a/Python/MySQL-Connectivity-With-Python/2/
> 
> only use database rows as sequences, ie as arrays with 
> numerical index.
> This gives you loads of problems when using "select *" and 
> also bad code
> readability when selecting specific columns.
> 
> Is there a way to use them as dictionaries, ie with 
> Index-Strings (=column
> names) as indexes?
> 
> BTW, is there any good searchable reference to Python's 
> functions, with
> examples and cross-references to similar functions?
> 
> Thanks a lot,
> 
> Robert
> -- 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 


From peter at semantico.com  Thu Aug 12 11:13:45 2004
From: peter at semantico.com (Peter Hickman)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:13:45 +0100
Subject: Help understanding Scheme's syntax, procedures and calls
In-Reply-To: <411b7bdd$0$65612$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
References: <95f168b0.0408120120.31433dc7@posting.google.com>
	<411b577a$0$20523$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk>
	<411b7bdd$0$65612$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <411b892a$0$2952$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk>

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2004-08-12, Peter Hickman <peter at semantico.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Is this someone's homework by any chance?
> 
> 
> According to the OP, it's part of a final exam.
> 

So they are completely shot then?


From rpm1deleteme at direcway.com  Tue Aug 17 19:16:42 2004
From: rpm1deleteme at direcway.com (RPM1)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:16:42 -0400
Subject: Best programming language
References: <mailman.1718.1092639914.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2ofhl4F9mve8U1@uni-berlin.de>

Clearly the best programming language is:

Religion.

Patrick


"Roman Suzi" <rnd at onego.ru> wrote in message
news:mailman.1718.1092639914.5135.python-list at python.org...
>
> ;-)
>
> Just type into google
> "best programming language"
> and press (I am lucky)
>
>
> Sincerely yours, Roman Suzi
> --
> rnd at onego.ru =\= My AI powered by GNU/Linux RedHat 7.3




From jjl at pobox.com  Mon Aug  2 15:34:22 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 02 Aug 2004 20:34:22 +0100
Subject: Fine-grained OSError subclasses or cross-platform errnos?
Message-ID: <87llgxuyf5.fsf@pobox.com>

Today, I wanted to do something like this:

def nr_files(dirName)
    try:
        return len(os.listdir(dirName))
    except OSError, e:
        if e.errno == errno.ENOENT:
            return 0
        else:
            raise

In other words, I wanted to trap only the case of missing directory
(and not, for example, insufficient permissions), and I wanted to do
it in the EAFP style.

The problem is that errno is not cross-platform.  Neither is there any
subclass of OSError that I can conveniently catch to figure out what
went wrong.

Is there any better way of doing this?

If not, why not?


John


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Wed Aug  4 12:33:31 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay Brar)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 02:33:31 +1000
Subject: bsddb
Message-ID: <41110FDB.9080307@mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

when i do an import bsddb, it tries do do an import _bsddb
i looked around Python23\Lib but couldn't find any _bsddp file....or am 
i totally on the wrong track.
the reason i am asking is, i am trying to port a Python app to a pocket 
pc and python release for pocket pc does not have bsddb module.

thanks

cheers

-- 
Ajay Brar
CS Honours 2004
Smart Internet Technology Research Group

http://www.it.usyd.edu.au/~abrar1



From chrispatton at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 20:09:35 2004
From: chrispatton at gmail.com (Chris Patton)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 17:09:35 -0700
Subject: A newbie in need....
Message-ID: <9c3edc58.0408261609.6640e400@posting.google.com>

Hey everybody. I'm trying to make a program that requires a 2D field
to run. Besides "curses" or "ncurses", is there a python module that
will create a graph?

--Thanks for the help!


From Jeffrey at Fro.man  Wed Aug 25 16:27:24 2004
From: Jeffrey at Fro.man (Jeffrey Froman)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:27:24 -0700
Subject: Enumerate object is destroyed by casting?
References: <f8097096.0408251207.1e8f633e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <g8-dnc7a5Ouwa7HcRVn-pw@cablespeedwa.com>

Nick Jacobson wrote:

> Casting an 'enumerate' object destroys it????Is?that?supposed?to
> happen, or is it a bug?
> 
> 
> For example:
> a = ['a', 'b', 'c']
> e = enumerate(a)
> print dict(e)
> print dict(e)
> 
> 
> Result:
> {0: 'a', 1: 'b', 2: 'c'}
> {}

This is supposed to happen. Enumerate objects are essentially generators --
casting the object doesn't "destroy" it; but iterating over its values
"uses them up". In other words, after the first dict() call, your
enumerator is now empty. The same thing would happen if you simply iterated
over the object, like:

for thing in e:
 print thing




From grante at visi.com  Fri Aug 13 15:29:18 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 19:29:18 GMT
Subject: How to sort records in file
References: <81a41dd.0408131122.21180d0d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <411d168e$0$65601$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-13, Lad <export at hope.cz> wrote:

> What is the best( easiest)way how to sort a file?

$ man sort  

;)

> I have a file where each record consists of 3 fields( 3 words)
> and I would like to sort records by the first field( word)in
> each record.

lines = file('myfilename').readlines()
lines.sort()
for l in lines:
    print l,

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  I just had my entire
                                  at               INTESTINAL TRACT coated
                               visi.com            with TEFLON!


From __peter__ at web.de  Sat Aug 14 15:49:39 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 21:49:39 +0200
Subject: tkinter canvas bitmaps w/ xbm formated string data?
References: <9578d4b.0408141100.6b88a7ab@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cflqcj$i59$05$1@news.t-online.com>

Brett wrote:

> I'm trying to load a xbm formatted string as a bitmap and draw it to a
> canvas....I don't have any trouble with loading/displaying xbm files,
> it's when I've pre-created the xbm as a string I get a 'can't find
> your bitmap error'

> ...I have a feeling that I somehow lost a reference to my bitmap
> object...I'm not sure what's happening.
> 
> any ideas what could be wrong?

No, but

canvas.create_image(100, 100, image=a_bitmap)

instead of

> canvas.create_bitmap(100,100, bitmap=a_bitmap)  #if I used

seems to work.

Peter





From jens.news at webgear.co.za  Fri Aug 20 10:11:05 2004
From: jens.news at webgear.co.za (Jens Thiede)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:11:05 +0200
Subject: Newbie to XML in Python
Message-ID: <cg50qi$52p$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

XML in Python doesn't seem easy or intuitive. All I need to do, is to 
interpret a small piece of XML in which I store data for the contents of 
an autorun menu. What is the quickest/most effective way to do this?

What should I use for this; SAX or DOM - and which parser of ether one, 
or niether (if there is a third option)?

What are your views,

Jens.


From cedmunds at spamless.rochester.rr.com  Sat Aug 28 22:18:34 2004
From: cedmunds at spamless.rochester.rr.com (Cy Edmunds)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 02:18:34 GMT
Subject: simple compiled languages?
References: <7xzn4fu188.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <_1bYc.855$2s.374@twister.nyroc.rr.com>

"Paul Rubin" <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> wrote in message
news:7xzn4fu188.fsf_-_ at ruckus.brouhaha.com...
> I'm wondering what other languages clpy'ers are familiar with, that
> have simple implmentations with compilers.  I'm asking out of general
> interest, not for a specific application.  Usually, discussions of
> small languages revolve around interpreters so I'm asking specifically
> about languages with compilers.
>
> Qualifications:
>
>   - Simple compact implementation, not too many LOC and not too many
>     machine resources needed.  Example: Ron Cain's Small-C and its
>     descendants.  Tiny CC (www.tinycc.org) is pushing the complexity
>     limits for what I have in mind.
>
>   - Real compiler, must generate real machine code (not threaded code or
>     byte code or asm macros) that's not too horrible, but needn't make
>     serious optimizing attempts.  Compiler should at least in principle
>     be retargetable to multiple cpu's.  Load-and-go operation (i.e. no
>     external assembler needed) is highly desirable.
>
>   - Real language with datatypes and semantics, not a fancy assembler or
>     FORTH.  Static or dynamic typing are both fine.  Fancy parsing is
>     not required, e.g. Lisp-like syntax is fine.
>
>   - Preferably self hosting, i.e. the compiler should be able to compile
>     itself, once you've gotten a running instance of the compiler
>     somehow.  Among other things, this helps establish that the language
>     is actually useable.
>
> Ideas?

Turbo Pascal. I used to think it was great in 1983. :)

-- 
Cy
http://home.rochester.rr.com/cyhome/




From davidb at mcs.st-and.ac.uk  Mon Aug 23 10:27:54 2004
From: davidb at mcs.st-and.ac.uk (David Boddie)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 07:27:54 -0700
Subject: ANN: Python Decrypt PDF script -- builds on pdftools
References: <mailman.1868.1092839116.5135.python-announce-list@python.org>
	<4de76ee2.0408200350.3ccb9c50@posting.google.com>
	<3c18c08f.0408201732.6766d375@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <4de76ee2.0408230627.46ebf22c@posting.google.com>

follower at gmail.com (Follower) wrote in message news:<3c18c08f.0408201732.6766d375 at posting.google.com>...

> I found some examples here (protected/encrypted with no user
> password):
> 
>  * <http://www.idealsoftware.com/ev_pdf_samples.htm>
>  * <http://www.paisano.com/pdf/pdftest.htm>

Thanks. I'll take a look at those sites.

> It also looks like the following GPL'd tool enables you to encrypt
> without Adobe tools:
> 
>  * <http://www.accesspdf.com/pdftk/>

It could be interesting to see exactly what needs to be done to encrypt
PDF files, but pdftools doesn't support file output at the moment.

> The code works well enough for me at the moment that my motivation for
> taking it further is a little low at the moment, sorry. :-) I'm not
> sure how straight-forward it would be to add it transparently, as at a
> minimum I think it needs to handle strings and streams differently. I
> will keep your request in mind though...

No problem. I've no great desire to improve it, either. I'm hoping that
someone will want to take it over and maintain it.

> Incidentally, have you considered making the Numeric import in
> pdftools optional? I just commented it out and things worked fine for
> me as I wasn't actually accessing page content.

I was trying to extend the module towards support for exporting the
contents in suitable file formats, and Numeric was used just for
matrix handling. A streamlined pdftools would just provide a simpler
wrapper around the objects in the PDF file.

> Thanks for your work with pdftools.

Thanks for taking it further!

David


From mattjensen at timetospare.net  Sun Aug 29 02:55:51 2004
From: mattjensen at timetospare.net (Matthew K Jensen)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 23:55:51 -0700
Subject: os.popen problem
Message-ID: <173c23bb.0408282255.2f1be2ee@posting.google.com>

Ok, this might seem odd as to why I am doing this in this certain way,
but it's for a very specific purpose, and in so doing needs to be done
this way. I am writing code on a winbloze box like so:

-----------
import os

vlvl = os.popen('copy con randomfilename','w')
vlvl.write('some stuff')
vlvl.write('some more stuff')
vlvl.write(chr(0))
vlvl.close()

-----------

At the next to last line, the command is supposed to complete and give
output which resembles "\t1 file(s) copied.\r\n". Appearantly this is
not happening. The last line just hangs there, doing nothing. Is there
something I am supposed to be doing, or is there some concept that has
either blown over the top of my head or just simply forgot? Any
feedback is helpful.

With respect,

Matt K Jensen


From grante at visi.com  Sun Aug 15 21:12:18 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 01:12:18 GMT
Subject: Python secure?
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<ZKRTc.3710$bJ2.23892@news1.mts.net>
	<6o75v1-p92.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
Message-ID: <412009f1$0$8090$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-15, Roger Binns <rogerb at rogerbinns.com> wrote:

>>> Yes.  Anyone who recovers your "code" and/or uses it will be
>>> in violation of copyright and several other laws.  That is
>>> legal protection no matter what languages or combination of
>>> languages you use.
>>
>> I assume you are talking about reverse engineering.  If so,
>> that just depends on that particular countries laws.  Some
>> allow and some don't.
>
> The "uses it" bit is what is important.  Even in the European
> Union where reverse engineering is legal, it is only legal for
> the purpose of interoperability and where the original vendor
> provides no suitable other means of doing the
> interoperability.
>
> Anyone just taking your code, or even recovered code and then redistributing
> it

Ah.  Nobody said the decompiled code would be redistributed.
Distributing copies (decompiled or otherwised) is covered by
copyright law.  Decompiling is not.

> falls fowl of copyright laws (unless of course you GPL it :-)

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  HELLO, little boys!
                                  at               Gimme a MINT TULIP!! Let's
                               visi.com            do the BOSSA NOVA!!


From johnfkeeling at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 15 00:32:08 2004
From: johnfkeeling at yahoo.com (John Keeling)
Date: 14 Aug 2004 21:32:08 -0700
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
References: <mailman.1642.1092459951.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <35b736b9.0408142032.1b41f2e0@posting.google.com>

Chas,
> action-at-a-distance is *always* bad.

I agree, but the culprit is the poor style of writing a
function/method implementation that spreads over numerous pages. If a
function is large, it is good style to break it up.
So, to my mind, the action-at-a-distance problem doesn't really exist
... it is just poor coding style of very large functions that creates
action-at-a-distance here:

> def blah (args):
> ....[insert 50/100/200 lines here]
> blah = staticmethod(blah)

I say, if function/method blah is over a page long, then it should be
broken up into smaller component functions, thus removing the
action-at-a-distance complaint.
So, with due respect for all honourable python devs who have given us
IMO the best programming language available, decorators, to my mind,
are a totally superfluous feature ... and this turns out to be a
negative because they are unnecessary (and divisive).
My opinion: please remove decorators forever, or at least until there
is some concensus as to how they should be used.
John


From jepler at unpythonic.net  Wed Aug 18 22:16:23 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 21:16:23 -0500
Subject: how to display unicode in a Label in Tkinter
In-Reply-To: <BAY1-F38wO1FnZqJkA400087c55@hotmail.com>
References: <BAY1-F38wO1FnZqJkA400087c55@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040819021623.GA24118@unpythonic.net>

I have to warn you, my remarks below are based on an extensive knowledge
of tcl, and a tiny knowledge of arabic.

On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 02:50:07PM -0600, A K wrote:
> um i waswondering if the web page yu provided gave code that did the 
> following
> 
> 1) provide a function that reverses the order of the text

string:revert reverses the whole string, and turns "(" into ")" and vice
versa.  The first loop at the top of "proc uc:arabchar2glyph" unreverses 
strings of digits, possibly with embedded spaces, hyphens, dots, and
commas.

The next two blocks turn digits (optionally) and the punctuation
characters "?" and "," into equivalents ("ARABIC QUESTION MARK" and
"ARABIC THOUSANDS SEPARATOR").

The next two sections use commas (no "original" commas remain after an
earlier step, so this is safe) to deal with combining characters.  Here
things go beyond my little knowledge of arabic.  First, a comma is added
at the "side" of each glyph that is a combining glyph, then the
glyphs-with-commas are turned into the combined glyphs.  For instance,
the first two entries in that list are for turning the characters
    U+0622 ARABIC LETTER ALEF WITH MADDA ABOVE
    U+0644 ARABIC LETTER LAM
into
    U+fef6 ARABIC LIGATURE LAM WITH ALEF WITH MADDA ABOVE FINAL FORM
assuming the commas produced earlier are in the right place.

List (in arabchar2glyph), any remaining commas (from glyphs that didn't
combine) are removed, and the string is returned.

The final "proc ar:ligatures" does even more substitution.  The first
pair of items turns the sequence
    U+fea4 ARABIC LETTER HAH MEDIAL FORM
    U+fee4 ARABIC LETTER MEEM MEDIAL FORM
    U+fedf ARABIC LETTER LAM INITIAL FORM
into
    U+fd88 ARABIC LIGATURE LAM WITH MEEM WITH HAH INITIAL FORM

I think these two specific examples will seem "backwards" to you,
because at both steps the string has been "rendered" from logical order
to European left-to-right order.

> 2) stores the unicode number of the arabic characters in an array and 
> assigns them a letter or character from the keybord.

Yes, the portion of the code beginning "proc buckwalter2uc" turns an
ASCII representation of Arabic text into the proper unicode characters.

> 
> Also the attachment yu sent contained a bunch of non-sense. I was wondering 
> what it was supposed to be. thank you for your help.

The attachment is generated by software called "gpg", which is related to
older software called "PGP".  It is a "signature" that allows people who
read messages I write to be confident that I wrote them.  You could use
the gpg software yourself to verify the signature.  In my e-mail program,
something this is displayed at the
top of a signed message:
  [-- PGP output follows (current time: Wed 18 Aug 2004 08:38:54 PM CDT) --]
  gpg: Signature made Tue 17 Aug 2004 09:06:45 PM CDT using DSA key ID 96935D7D
  gpg: Good signature from "Jeff Epler <jepler at unpythonic.net>"
  [-- End of PGP output --]
gpg can also be used to encrypt the contents of e-mail messages, giving
some measure of privacy to online conversations.  You can learn more
about gpg by visiting www.gnupg.org if you're interested, though that
website seems to be geared to people who already know what gpg is and
why they want it..

Jeff
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From chotty at freenet.de  Sun Aug 22 09:19:02 2004
From: chotty at freenet.de (Christian Otteneuer)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 15:19:02 +0200
Subject: clear content of 'printed'
Message-ID: <cga6gd$17qo$1@news.uni-koblenz.de>

Hello Newsgroup,

I have the following problem:
I want to write a python script, that writes text into files. The text is 
being "collected" in a for-loop, the code looks like this:

for i in range(len(myList)):
    id = myList[i]
    print "some text"
    container.writeToFile(id, printed)

Where writeToFile() creates a new file with the id 'id' and fills it with 
'printed'. The problem is, that I have to delete the
content of 'printed'  before entering the for-loop again. Else, I'll find 
the content of the past for-loops in my file. (The file created in the 
second loop would look like this:)

some text
some text

Is there a possibility to do clear the content of 'printed' in python?

Thanks alot!! 




From jello at comics.com  Mon Aug 23 09:06:56 2004
From: jello at comics.com (rzed)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:06:56 GMT
Subject: XMLObject - problem with recursive definitions
References: <6f402501.0408222323.5fd81b2a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Xns954E5D4C8E862jreeder@63.223.5.95>

fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord) wrote in
news:6f402501.0408222323.5fd81b2a at posting.google.com: 

> I've been using the excellent XMLObject and have unfortunately
> come up against what *looks* to me like a bug - although it's
> very possible that the problem is  mine  !!
> 
[...]

I copied your code, installed XMLObject (thanks for mentioning 
this, by the way -- I had not been aware of it before), and ran the 
program, which worked fine. 

Output:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1" ?>
<thing abit="Hello My Friend">
  <thing abit="Recursion Test">
    <anotherthing abit="Yo Again"/>
  </thing>
  <anotherthing abit="Yo"/>
</thing>


<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1" ?>
<thing abit="Hello My Friend">
  <thing abit="Recursion Test">
    <anotherthing abit="Yo Again"/>
  </thing>
  <anotherthing abit="Yo"/>
</thing>


... but this was based on the latest XMLObject. Maybe it's been 
patched in response to your message?

-- 
rzed



From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 16:29:45 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:29:45 +0200
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2458.1093543085.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1gj5cs7.wqxd1s1ec69umN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Robert Brewer <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote:
   ...
> I await the ultimate irony, that after all the furor, Guido may decide
> to pull decorators out of 2.4 entirely during beta. ;)

I'd see nothing ironic about it.  After some experimentation, I think
I'd rather have no decorators than the @syntax blotch.

I think a keyword that's ALREADY a keyword has been almost ignored,
though people occasionally did mention it re decorators: 'as'.  I'd love
to see 'as' used as THE decorator keyword.  personally I'd prefer
'def as classmethod foo(...):'
followed by
'def foo(...) as classmethod:'
followed by
'as classmethod def foo(...):'
followed by
'as: classmethod
 def foo(...):'
but even the last one of these, the one I least prefer, seem to me to be
superior to all other suggestions I've seen (including J2 using 'per'
instead of 'as', which I'd expressed favourable opinions on earlier).

'as' is a keyword today, VASTLY underused currently in being relegated
to 'from ... import ... as' and 'import ... as' statements only.  Let's
get full mileage from it by making it the decorators keyword, J2 or
otherwise!  (( yeah the semantics are quite different -- so are those of
comma: short and unobtrusive pieces of either punctuation or keywords
DESERVE to get overloaded that way!!!-)  ))


Alex
 


From pellis.no.spam at tampabay.rr.com  Fri Aug 27 23:19:28 2004
From: pellis.no.spam at tampabay.rr.com (Patrick Ellis)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 03:19:28 GMT
Subject: Boa Constructor error
References: <4712d252.0408260804.c69cfee@posting.google.com>
	<cgn9s9$ao5$1@online.de>
	<875af5e2.0408271135.7a19a30f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <4RSXc.3563$uN5.2974@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>

ake <ake.ljungbert3 at comhem.se> typed:
> Uwe Grauer <news at grauer-online.de> wrote
>>
>> Boa isn't ready for wxPython 2.5.x
>> Use wxPython 2.4.2.4 instead.
>
> Anyone know what's happening to Boa, there doesn't seem to have been a
> new version for over a year.

Boa 0.3.0 and then 0.3.1 just came out in the last couple weeks. It has
sizer support and updated documentation. It's still limited to wxPython 2.4,
but Riann's plan was to finish up 0.3.0 on 2.4 and then start work on a
version for 2.5. I'm hoping the next release will take less than a year :-).




From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Aug 18 10:36:44 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 10:36:44 -0400
Subject: simple Thread question
References: <b8001e9f.0408031151.4f617c6@posting.google.com>
	<1d6cdae3.0408171648.1b8767ea@posting.google.com>
	<l82dnQLW7bZOIb_cRVn-qQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <cfvphs$p9e$1@panix3.panix.com>

In article <l82dnQLW7bZOIb_cRVn-qQ at powergate.ca>,
Peter Hansen  <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
>
>While it's true that that is all that's needed, it is not required,
>and doesn't really provide any performance improvements.  I often do
>the above sort of thing where I use a given module in only one place,
>especially when using threads where it feels subtly cleaner to defer
>loading of some modules until the thread actually starts.

Except that the import lock makes this a Bad Idea, IMO.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From jimmy at retzlaff.com  Sun Aug  8 22:09:40 2004
From: jimmy at retzlaff.com (Jimmy Retzlaff)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 19:09:40 -0700
Subject: ODBC bug
Message-ID: <A7B5C22F20EE3C4E95744E2F03F1887F21C7E2@MAYOR.retzlaff.com>

Elbert Lev wrote:
> for ID, PWD in rs:
>     upd = "UPDATE TABLE SET PWD = \'%s\' WHERE ID = %u" % \
>                     (encode(PWD), ID)
>     mycursor.execute(upd)
...

> #This script updates (encodes) passwords in the database, 
> #but does this rather slowly if the the recordset contains 2000
> records.

Try replacing the above lines with something like this (untested, but
should be close):

upd = []
for ID, PWD in rs:
    upd.append((encode(PWD), ID))

mycursor.execute("UPDATE TABLE SET PWD = ? WHERE ID = ?", upd)


This should perform pretty well for a few thousand records. For hundreds
of thousands or millions of records you might want to write the contents
of upd to a file and do a bulk insert to a temp table, then do an update
with a join (if you'll be doing such an update often enough to justify
the programming time).

Jimmy



From arargh407NOSPAM at NOW.AT.arargh.com  Tue Aug 31 15:59:47 2004
From: arargh407NOSPAM at NOW.AT.arargh.com (arargh407NOSPAM at NOW.AT.arargh.com)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:59:47 -0500
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4PGdnfsOfdDPi63cRVn-tA@speakeasy.net>
	<slrncj1745.t5q.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<41337FC9.8070902@hotmail.com>
	<slrncj7hhh.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<p7v7j0plcfbden593l1irfprmfkp4d3k51@4ax.com>
	<slrncj8m5n.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<%T%Yc.29567$Es2.11957889@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<du7k6vfnvx9.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi> <4134AC88.56452265@yahoo.com>
	<aN2Zc.10226$QJ3.5466@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <74m9j05av6cjpd4fs1mlatgmvlq98l9rmc@4ax.com>

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:43:34 GMT, red floyd <no.spam at here.dude> wrote:

>CBFalconer wrote:
>
>> Dump Notepad and get Textpad.  www.textpad.com.  First class.
>> 
>
>Let the editor flame wars begin!
>
>Get gvim!  www.vim.org

WordPerfect PE or later ED.  No longer sold, AFAIK.

-- 
Arargh407 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com
BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html

To reply by email, remove the garbage from the reply address.


From theller at python.net  Mon Aug 16 11:41:21 2004
From: theller at python.net (Thomas Heller)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:41:21 +0200
Subject: Knowing a COMObject by IID
References: <daf62359.0408160551.21eec6d2@posting.google.com>
	<8tSdnYPuvsYDIr3cRVn-vA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <8ycfhyzi.fsf@python.net>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> writes:

> Mauro Baraldi wrote:
>
>> Someone can helpe-me how to get the name of a COMObject by it CLSID.
>> Example: A object got a number CLSID
>> ({CA8A9783-280D-11CF-A24D-444553540000}).
>> It name is Acrobat Control for ActiveX.
>> Or where can I found a good reference for this...
>
> The most direct method is to use "regedit" to search for it
> in your registry.  You can find it under HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\CLSID
> and the name will be under the default key for the entry.
>
> But I suspect you wanted to do this programmatically...
> and I don't know the API you would use.

>>> import _winreg
>>> help(_winreg.QueryValue)
Help on built-in function QueryValue:

QueryValue(...)
    string = QueryValue(key, sub_key) - retrieves the unnamed value for a key.

    key is an already open key, or any one of the predefined HKEY_* constants.
    sub_key is a string that holds the name of the subkey with which the value
     is associated.  If this parameter is None or empty, the function retrieves
     the value set by the SetValue() method for the key identified by key.
    Values in the registry have name, type, and data components. This method
    retrieves the data for a key's first value that has a NULL name.
    But the underlying API call doesn't return the type, Lame Lame Lame, DONT USE THIS!!!

>>> _winreg.QueryValue(_winreg.HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT, "CLSID\\{CA8A9780-280D-11CF-A24D-444553540000}")
'Adobe Acrobat Control for ActiveX'
>>>

Thomas


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Thu Aug 26 21:12:03 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 18:12:03 -0700
Subject: A newbie in need....
References: <9c3edc58.0408261609.6640e400@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1093569633.981053@news.commspeed.net>


"Chris Patton" <chrispatton at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9c3edc58.0408261609.6640e400 at posting.google.com...
> Hey everybody. I'm trying to make a program that requires a 2D field
> to run. Besides "curses" or "ncurses", is there a python module that
> will create a graph?
>
> --Thanks for the help!

I like DISLIN at http://www.linmpi.mpg.de/dislin/,

I've writen a Global Digital Evivation Data Viewer in wxPython that shows
good (In my opionion) examples of shade, contour and 3d plots. You can get a
copy at http://users.commspeed.net/tbabbitt/rbranch_strangness5.htm . (My
python page)

Tom




From gerrit.muller at embeddedsystems.nl  Fri Aug 20 04:53:05 2004
From: gerrit.muller at embeddedsystems.nl (Gerrit Muller)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:53:05 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <7x3c2iw9ig.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<7x3c2iw9ig.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <cg4e5h$ie6$2@news.tue.nl>

Paul Rubin wrote:

> "Paul McGuire" <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> writes:
> 
>>I would propose a multivote survey: each poster gets 3 votes among the
>>lettered choices on the Wiki page above.  You can use all 3 for a single
>>option, or split them across 2 or 3 options if you are open to more than
>>one.
> 
> 
> 1. My favorite variant was not in the list.
> 
> 2. Any of the choices will have far reaching consequences that aren't
>    yet thought out very well.  There is not yet enough experience
>    programming with the existing mechanisms (classmethods etc.) to
>    be sure what's really worthwhile.  
> 
> 3. There's not all that much discussion on the wiki of how other
>    languages do this stuff.
> 
> 4. There's nowhere near consensus that any of the choices presented so
>    far are not plain horrible.
> 
> My conclusion: Python 2.4 should not have new decorator syntax.  Stay
> with the existing stuff, for now.
> 
> Discussion and exploration should continue and the question should be
> revisited for 2.5.  For 2.4, extend the current kludgy (decorators
> separated from the function) mechanism if needed to provide necessary
> functionality, but deprecate any new such feature as soon as it's
> introduced, with the explanation that it's exploratory. 

Hear, Hear! I just replied in a similar way, before reading your response.

regards Gerrit

-- 
Gaudi systems architecting:
<http://www.extra.research.philips.com/natlab/sysarch/>



From richard.scothern at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 09:44:37 2004
From: richard.scothern at gmail.com (Richy2004)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 06:44:37 -0700
Subject: Unicode support
Message-ID: <cf0205$q41@odak26.prod.google.com>

I've experienced problems when trying to load a text file encoded with
2byte unicode characters.  No matter what combination of the following
I try, I always get an error when
executing file.readline()

file = open("file.txt", "r")
file = open("file.txt", "rb")
file = codecs.open("file.txt", "rb", "utf-16")
file = unicode(open("file.txt", "r"), "utf-16")

Even more strangely it does work when used in the interactive
interpreter.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
Richard



From fred at acme.com  Thu Aug 12 18:45:25 2004
From: fred at acme.com (Fred)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 00:45:25 +0200
Subject: Python script to generate static site?
References: <hl5lh0pb3u4m47f2bsatc9vigrv7pc7v07@4ax.com>
	<mailman.1565.1092327610.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <hnsnh0p0elbr9j3qbtkmr4t9hihp70n46r@4ax.com>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 18:20:04 +0200, Walter D?rwald
<walter at livinglogic.de> wrote:
(snip)

Thx a bunch everyone. I'll check all those out.

Fred.


From zathras at thwackety.com  Thu Aug 12 20:14:58 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 01:14:58 +0100 (BST)
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
In-Reply-To: <411bfa47$1@nntp.zianet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408130106410.12336-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Mark Bottjer wrote:

> FWIW, I agree. That's why I like this option the best:
>
> class C:
>    def c(self):
>      meta: #declare, decorate, transform, fubar, whatever...
>        staticmethod
>        doc('Doc.')
>      pass

FWIW, I _personally_ prefer this approach, and the reason I implemented J2
was solely because I went a) "oooh", b) it looks like it has the same
advantages as the @pies c) the number of times it's been pointed out that
syntaxes with decorators inside the function won't go anywhere, d) The
wiki page said (sorta) that it couldn't be  done.

I can quite happily live with the @pie syntax, but _personally_ I find J2
clearer than @pie (and the above syntax you provide clearer still) and it
also gives someone a keyword to lookup when reading code with it, rather
than searching for punctuation. (punctuation also strikes me as more
user/newbie hostile, but again, that's taste)


Michael.



From ben at benlast.com  Wed Aug 25 04:40:56 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:40:56 +0100
Subject: 100 % portable ?
In-Reply-To: <slrncikbc9.251.davecook@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPEEFPCFAA.ben@benlast.com>

>From the Quasi source:
    def getHome(self):
        """Return the path to the home directory - a cross-platform
        equivalent of "~"."""
        #We try this on all OS's, since HOME is not set for plain vanilla
        #WIN32, but *is* set under Cygwin.  Rather than use an exception,
        #and suffer the hit every time on Windows, use a key test.
        #NOTE; this is also done on Windows because I've had reports of
people
        #explicitly setting HOME for some level of Posix-compatibility, so
we
        #allow it to override the HOMEDRIVE/HOMEPATH here.
        if os.environ.has_key('HOME'):
            return os.environ['HOME']

        #try the windows alternative; if HOME failed and we're under
        #some nature of win32 environment.
        if sys.platform == "win32":
            try:
                #we expect this to succeed.
                return os.environ['HOMEDRIVE']+os.environ['HOMEPATH']
            except KeyError:
                pass

        #This is the default... no more we can really do.
        return "."

I don't support Quasi under any Windows OS lower than 2k, so I freely admit
to not having tested it on 95, 98 or Me :)

ben

> -----Original Message-----
> From: python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org
> [mailto:python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org]On Behalf Of Dave
> Cook
> Sent: 23 August 2004 18:47
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Re: 100 % portable ?
>
>
> In article <2otm5mFed44hU1 at uni-berlin.de>, Bernd Kaiser wrote:
>
> > You can use os.environ["HOME"], this will return the user's home dir.
>
> Doesn't work in win9x AFAIK.  I do notice that some people are starting to
> require XP for their apps.



From slrn at toetsch.at  Sat Aug 14 03:57:26 2004
From: slrn at toetsch.at (Leopold Toetsch)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:57:26 +0200
Subject: Flython
References: <slrnchq8lg.q3d.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
	<mailman.1644.1092461737.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408140153500.21775-100000@ccc2.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <slrnchrher.3da.slrn@toetsch.at>

Christopher T King <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote:

> (Unfortunately, AST trees don't match up exactly with Python grammar, so
> I'm having to learn the format by trial-and-error.  Not much fun.  Is
> there documentation on the AST forms anywhere?)

Not really much at least in the python docs.

You might have a look at ast2past.py in languages/python inside the
parrot[1] CVS tree. Its a Python AST visitor that spits out a textual
representation of the AST. It's not totally finished and is for 2.3.
I didn't look at 2.4 yet.

leo

[1] http://www.parrotcode.org, there is a CVS interface too.
-- 
Leopold Toetsch <lt at toetsch.at> http://www.toetsch.at/linux/
-
You're in a small chamber lit by an eerie green light.  An extremely
narrow tunnel exits to the west.  A dark corridor leads ne.


From mwh at python.net  Wed Aug 25 07:27:20 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:27:20 GMT
Subject: Inline Conditionals?
References: <mailman.2307.1093385983.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m3llg3h2zs.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Joshua Ginsberg <joshg at brainstorminternet.net> writes:

> Is there any plan to include inline conditionals in Python? For example:
> 
> def isNegative(x):
> 	return x < 0 ? True : False

Read PEP 308, and note that this was probably the largest flamewar in
Python history (well, before the still-ongoing decorators
discussion...).

But to answer your question: no.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Linux: Horse. Like a wild horse, fun to ride. Also prone to
  throwing you and stamping you into the ground because it doesn't
  like your socks.         -- Jim's pedigree of operating systems, asr


From danmoskowitz at gmail.com  Tue Aug 10 02:55:08 2004
From: danmoskowitz at gmail.com (Dan)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 23:55:08 -0700
Subject: Python equivalent to a C trick
Message-ID: <1d7b6d0d.0408092255.1177908e@posting.google.com>

Is there a python equivalent of this trick in C?

Logic_Test ? True_Result : False_Result

Example:
printf( "you have %i %s", num_eggs, num_eggs > 1 ? "eggs" : "egg" );


From chris.irish at libertydistribution.com  Wed Aug  4 17:22:50 2004
From: chris.irish at libertydistribution.com (Chris Irish)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 14:22:50 -0700
Subject: guide to introspecting python?
In-Reply-To: <UVUPc.6122$AY5.373@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
References: <UVUPc.6122$AY5.373@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <411153AA.9040205@libertydistribution.com>

I saw that you work for pixar.  Do they use python alot? Is it mostly 
for making tools for the artists or something else?  And one last 
question does pixar use their own software for rendering or more 
commercial stuff like Maya/3d Studio Max.  Sorry for being nosey.


From unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom  Sun Aug  1 02:27:18 2004
From: unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom (Michel Claveau - abstraction méta-galactique non triviale en fuite perpétuelle.)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 08:27:18 +0200
Subject: transforming a list into a string
References: <pan.2004.07.31.12.27.23.547000@hotmail.com>
	<roy-982174.13075831072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<cegqdu$2fb$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<mailman.1020.1091310303.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-FDE83B.19595731072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1022.1091319366.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-C8B243.20435231072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1023.1091322043.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-0A6C18.21364331072004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <cej73a$aic$1@news-reader1.wanadoo.fr>

+1

-- 
Michel Claveau





From Jeffrey at Fro.man  Fri Aug 20 00:28:55 2004
From: Jeffrey at Fro.man (Jeffrey Froman)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:28:55 -0700
Subject: Rita Sue and Bob too
References: <cg3ksb$bg5$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <YfedndCJKP2V47jcRVn-rQ@cablespeedwa.com>

M. Clift wrote:

> But, how to I find a sequence in a list of unknown size? i.e. this
> sequence in list of other names and replace it with three others?

How about a generator?

def slice(apple, worm, new_worm):
    while apple:
        if worm == apple[:len(worm)]:
            apple = apple[len(worm):]
            yield new_worm
        else:
            yield [apple.pop(0)]

Jeffrey


From fumanchu at amor.org  Sun Aug 22 13:50:18 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 10:50:18 -0700
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E27@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Roy Smith wrote:
> Putting on my "Slightly Silly Party" hat, may I suggest that 
> "pie" meets 
> all of those constraints :-)

I did leave out that important group:

Silly: pie, SpanishInquisition, pythonic, stackless, sorcerize, etc...

;)


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From john.burton at jbmail.com  Thu Aug 19 17:56:59 2004
From: john.burton at jbmail.com (John Burton)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:56:59 +0100
Subject: ANN: pyxe
In-Reply-To: <41250363.6193453@news.t-online.de>
References: <41250363.6193453@news.t-online.de>
Message-ID: <4125222b$0$58822$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk>

Gerson Kurz wrote:
> pyxe is a small executable that will run python scripts on a machine
> that doesn't have Python installed. Example: You have the following
> hello.py:

Hmm, I tried it (on windows xp pro) and I get this error :-

  Traceback (most recent call last):
    File "C:\pyxe\pyxe_dumpmods.py", line 35, in analyze_modules
      exec('import %s' % scriptname)
    File "<string>", line 1, in ?
  ImportError: No module named py

This was just on the simple hello world program.
Any ideas?


From zoltan at teliko.net  Sat Aug  7 06:51:17 2004
From: zoltan at teliko.net (Zoltan Sekeres)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 12:51:17 +0200
Subject: Paul Graham on Python hackers
References: <cf1p1f$ke0@odak26.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.07.10.51.16.393303@teliko.net>

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 22:23:59 -0700, ellisjb wrote:
> (In all seriousness I think python and java have a lot more in common than
> python and perl.)

This a flamebait, right? Otherwise I would be interested in the features
which make Python similar to Java (shudder).

-- 
Zoltan


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 23:16:56 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:16:56 +1000
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <412547B3.4020801@jessikat.fsnet.co.uk>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<412547B3.4020801@jessikat.fsnet.co.uk>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040819201663ab295f@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 01:37:07 +0100, Robin Becker
<robin at spamremovejessikat.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> Is there any discussion about which versions are currently legal python
> in Python-2.x x<4? I deal with lot's of cross version maintainance
> issues and the very worst are where the syntax makes it illegal even to
> compile the files. I believe that B is legal and has implementations for
> earlier pythons available, but are others?

Backwards compatibility is not considered a desirable goal.

Don't forget that any code that uses generator expressions is _also_
invalid in Python 2.3 and earlier - and they'll be used a hell of a lot
more than decorators.


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 00:42:34 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:42:34 +1000
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <2p7rurFhgglpU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgkeio$spo$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<7xhdqp967k.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<412e3ba4$0$92817$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>
	<2p7rurFhgglpU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408262142d2c4b7d@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:34:33 +1200, Greg Ewing
<greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> It came as a shock to people *in* python-dev, too. It just
> appeared one day as a fait accompli, without any opportunity
> for discussion.

*shrug* I posted a couple of weeks before from Guido saying "here's
another syntax that Guido is leaning towards", and asking for a
volunteer to write a patch. Patch was done, there was a bit of
back-and-forth in the patch tracker on SF, then it came down to a
Guido decision.

I don't know what additional discussion on python-dev would have
accomplished. Almost no-one spoke up about the @syntax when I posted
the first note.


From roy at panix.com  Sun Aug  8 11:24:32 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 11:24:32 -0400
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar,
	but for what exactly? (decorator libraries).
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
	<mailman.1352.1091953503.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-0D45FB.09322108082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1359.1091973019.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-032D22.10191908082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1360.1091975279.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-B29ABA.10463808082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1361.1091977078.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-3DFA46.11243208082004@reader1.panix.com>

In article <mailman.1361.1091977078.5135.python-list at python.org>,
 Andrew Durdin <adurdin at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 10:46:38 -0400, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> > In article <mailman.1360.1091975279.5135.python-list at python.org>,
> > 
> > Wow, I'm glad I asked.  That answer is quite surprising, and somewhat
> > disconcerting.  Lot's of special cases going on here, which is bad.
> 
> Well, I think I agree with the principle of limiting the expressions
> to dotted names. Some of the possibilities if you allow arbitrary
> expressions are pretty hairy:
> 
> """
> Things someone might want to do, ordered roughly from most reasonable
> to least reasonable ;)
> @foo().bar()
> @foo or bar
> @mydecorators['foo']
> @lambda f: foo(f) or bar(f)
> """
> (from http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046673.html)

You can always do lots of hairy things all over the place.  Shall we 
limit functions to no more than 4 arguments?  Assignment statements to 
no more than 5 operators?  Function calls to nesting no more than 3 
deep?  I'm not in favor of hair, but the way to contain it is with good 
style and practice, not with arbitrary constraints in the grammar.

The most simple thing is the most general thing.  The thing after the @ 
gets called, therefore it must be a callable object.  I don't see any 
need to specify anything further.

It's not good style to crassly split infinitives either, but it sure 
would be annoying if my news client prevented me from doing it.


From hawk at slytherin.ds.psu.edu  Fri Aug 27 11:24:43 2004
From: hawk at slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 15:24:43 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<HvadnUsZ7IAwc7DcRVn-sQ@megapath.net>
Message-ID: <cgnjnr$1iu0$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>

In article <HvadnUsZ7IAwc7DcRVn-sQ at megapath.net>,
R Baumann <rynt at 9yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>"Xah Lee" <xah at xahlee.org> wrote in message
>news:7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a at posting.google.com...
>> Larry Wall and Cults
>> (Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
>> 200012


>In this context --- This is the STUPIDEST thing I've ever heard.  

Nah.  I practiced law for five years.  :)

hawk
-- 
Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics    /"\   ASCII ribbon campaign
dochawk at psu.edu  111 Hiller (814) 375-4846      \ /   against HTML mail
These opinions will not be those of              X    and postings. 
Penn State until it pays my retainer.           / \   


From fumanchu at amor.org  Sun Aug 22 00:42:24 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:42:24 -0700
Subject: Overriding logical operators?
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E21@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Andrew Durdin wrote:
> I suppose now I ought to say why I need to to do more than that. I've
> got a situation where I want to construct an expression, but evaluate
> it later when I get more information. I came up with a "DelayedEval"
> class, the instances of which can have operations performed on them,
> but the result is not evaluated until a particular method is called.
> I'm currently overriding all the operators I can, so that these
> instances can be handled in a fairly normal fashion for the most part.
> For example:
> 
> foo = DelayedEval()
> foo = (-foo + 15) * 3
> foo_positive = (foo >= 0)
> 
> print foo.evaluate(10)      # prints 15
> print foo.evaluate(20)      # prints -15
> print foo_positive.evaluate(10)      # prints True
> print foo_positive.evaluate(20)      # prints False
> 
> In this situation, merely overriding the __nonzero__ method will not
> allow me to delay the evaluation of the logical boolean operators; to
> do that I need to be able to override them.
> 
> The alternative solution that I can see to the issue is to use lambdas
> to create the expressions I need, and calling them to evaluate them,

Having written all four alternatives (which you're going to write ;),
you
also have the options of:

1) Using & and | instead of 'and' and 'or'. In this way, you can
override within the class in the same maneer you do for gt, lt, etc.
2) Bytecode hacks.

A fairly useful implementation of the latter (which I wrote and use
regularly in my ORM) is available at http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python
as 'logic.py'. It's in the public domain--steal it if you want. If you
really, really want an implementation of the former, I can probably dig
one up.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From indigo at bitglue.com  Mon Aug 23 21:09:00 2004
From: indigo at bitglue.com (Phil Frost)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:09:00 -0400
Subject: Getting at the bits of a 32-bit integer
In-Reply-To: <412A8B00.A81AA015@alcyone.com>
References: <85b54e91.0408231552.75f85727@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.2250.1093306507.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<412A8B00.A81AA015@alcyone.com>
Message-ID: <20040824010900.GA834@unununium.org>

Then you have paid the cost of a bool, and then some.

> So use a Python long instead!  That way the size of the Python int is
> irrelevant.
> 
> -- 
>  __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
> /  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
> \__/ It should therefore be difficult in a republic to declare war; but
>     not to make peace. -- John Story
> 
On Mon, Aug 23, 2004 at 05:25:36PM -0700, Erik Max Francis wrote:
> Phil Frost wrote:
> 
> > However, doing this sort of thing is rather nonpythonic. Python
> > abstracts the platform's representation of an integer. Integers in
> > Python arn't always 32 bits; they are actually the size of C's 'long'
> > type, which is to say you can find the size by looking at sys.maxint,
> > but it's more trouble than it's worth. You will also encounter
> > problems
> > if you change the highest bit:
> > 
> > >>> 10 ^ (1 << 31)
> > __main__:1: FutureWarning: x<<y losing bits or changing sign will return
> > a long in Python 2.4 and up
> > -2147483638
> > 
> > Note that the error message isn't even accurate. This is probably a
> > good
> > indication that this isn't a common use case!
> > 
> > So, short story: use a bool (True/False)


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 30 05:59:41 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 11:59:41 +0200
Subject: Generator expressions v/s list comprehensions
References: <mahesh-525B07.12195528082004@individual.net>
	<1gj8y77.6qshr41q531veN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<mahesh-7E265C.14093428082004@individual.net>
	<87llfywooz.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<mahesh-F76AD6.17094429082004@individual.net>
	<1gjbs1e.assxlxlud1m0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xbrgtrq4r.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <1gjbx8e.1y0xn2mpoap5dN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:

> aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:
> > It would sure be nice if Python had been born back from day one with all
> > the neat features it has taken years to develop -- that way we wouldn't
> > have any issues that are there just because of backwards compatibility.
> > 
> > Unfortunately, this wish is totally unrealistic -- obviously people do
> > come up with cool ideas such as the iterator protocol, and generators,
> > after the language has been around for a while. 
> 
> And yet a lot of the unrealisticness comes directly from the Python
> culture.  Maybe it took a while to think up the iterator protocol, but
> what about nested scopes?  What about the += operator?  How about the
> sorted() method on lists?  One could go on and on with more examples
> like that.  

...and some of the examples would be wrong, just like yours about "the
sorted method on lists" -- sorted is a new built-in function in 2.4, not
a method on lists, and it accepts any sequence, not just a list.

> These things exist in other languages and had been
> requested in Python for years before they got accepted.  And every

A million other features satisfy this description D: they exist in other
languages and have been requested in Python for years.  Indeed, it's
hard to think of ANY feature which exists in other languages and has NOT
been requested for Python.

> time some little thing gets added changing the language, that creates
> a new mini-dialect that users have to remember for a while and then
> forget.  The result is "version fatigue"; one gets bleary trying to
> remember what's in the language this week.  Those features are in
> other languages for a reason, and there's been enough experience using
> them (in those languages) that their desirability for Python should
> never have seriously been in question.  So it would have been better
> to include them from the beginning, instead of through separate
> episodes of prolonged agony for each one.

If Python included every features satisfying description D, then Python
would be the largest, bulkiest, most unwieldy language in the world --
in fact I think even including half the features in D would be plenty to
make Python completely unusable.  That a dozen features satisfying D
have indeed been included is therefore a silly argument, considering
that a gross more features satisfying D have not been included and
hopefully never will.  Moreover, the specific feature we're discussing,
generator expressions, doesn't really satisfy D (what Haskell has is not
quite the same thing, you know), making your argument even weirder.

All features that are in any programming language are there for a reason
(not necessarily a good one -- some languages may have been designed on
principles close to those implied by this silly criticism you are
expressing, for example) and, for old enough languages, there has been
enough experience using them.  Nevertheless it's perfectly proper and
indeed wise to seriously question their desirability for Python.  I bet
that if you took a feature satisfying description D, you'd find a chance
of more than 90% that it would be totally silly to have it in Python and
that it will never be there.

Finding out what dozen, out of dozens of dozens, of features satisfying
D, would work well with Python, and which ones wouldn't, is obviously
not something that can be rushed.  Sure, introducing some feature in
every release is not ideal, but there is really no alternative that is
even in the least sensible at all.  So, I find your criticisms
unfounded.


Alex
 


From me at privacy.net  Fri Aug 13 13:47:51 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Richard Hanson)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 10:47:51 -0700
Subject: Rather than decorators, how about sections?
References: <mailman.1509.1092238688.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<gzsSc.3102$M8.1654@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<mailman.1519.1092248055.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ousph05g8hhfuamgtkfh9368hoeuqd74ds@4ax.com>

[Bystander delurking -- idle musings...]

[Paul Morrow wrote:]
>Hmmm... did I say 'aspect'?  Maybe instead of cluttering up the code 
>with all of these 'declarations' (which is clearly where the decoration 
>movement is headed), we should have some sort of companion file that 
>contains these annotations, similar to what you see in the AOP languages.

Splork!

 -- And just yesterday, continuing to note all the discussion in
py-dev (and here) involving just where in the *linear* layout of
the code the decorators should go, I thought that maybe we need
tables -- two-dimensional coding (orthogonal beats flat)...?

1) A column of cells (of lines, blocks?) for what we now use as
our single, linear arrangement (lines) of code.

2) A column of cells for decorators and the like -- decorators
would go in the cells alongside the decorated code.

3) Perhaps a column for source code documentation.

4) [...]

(Of course, then we'd need new editors, etc.)

;-)

thinking-laterally-y'rs,
Richard

-- 
R Hanson [The mangled email addie below works.]
sick<P0INT>ole<PERI0D>fart<PIE_DEC0_SYNTAX>newsguy<MARK>com


From alanmk at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 10 09:12:26 2004
From: alanmk at hotmail.com (Alan Kennedy)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:12:26 +0100
Subject: Fixing socket.makefile()
In-Reply-To: <pJXRc.2959$5j7.2643@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>
References: <pJXRc.2959$5j7.2643@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <%N3Sc.24735$Z14.7608@news.indigo.ie>

[Bryan Olson]
 > The problem is that makefile() returns a Python object that has
 > its own local buffer.  The recv() call reads directly from the
 > socket, oblivious to any data queued in the file object's
 > buffer.  The problem is not limited to recv(); select(), and
 > perhaps other calls, will ignore the buffer and look directly at
 > the socket.  Output buffering appears to have a similar problem.

and

 > The Python Library Reference is silent on whether the
 > socket.makefile operations  are supposed to interact correctly
 > with the direct socket operations.  If they are supposed to play
 > well together, then read() is wrong.  If they are not, then
 > readline() is absurdly slow.

I'm glad you asked these questions ;-)

I also am interested in the answers, because I'm just coming to end of 
my implementation of cpython 2.3 compatible socket, select and asyncore 
modules for jython, i.e. asynchronous socket support, using the new 
java.nio APIs in jdk1.4+.

Points to make in relation to jython include

1. The problem you describe doesn't arise very often, I think. Most 
users who use makefile() on sockets are going to use the file-based 
interface exclusively and not the underlying socket interface.

2. The problem does not exist in jython, because jython implements the 
socket.makefile() method by returning wrappers on the java.net.socket's 
InputStream and OutputStream, meaning that calling either file or socket 
interface sends data through the same underlying streams.

3. I am eager to have the behaviour of cpython explicitly defined, since 
I am working hard to make my jython implementation 100% cpython 
compatible, right down to the exceptions. I want all cpython socket code 
to not know that it's running on jython.

4. I'm particularly interested in seeing documentation on how read and 
write operations on socket.makefile()s should behave when the socket is 
in non-blocking mode: Should it raise an exception? Which exception? The 
same exception on every platform?

P.S. To those who know I've working on this for *ages* now: apologies 
(Hi Irmen :-) My finances have prevented me from spending too much time 
working on this voluntary project. However, you may be encouraged to 
know that I now have it passing most of the cpython 2.3 test_socket.py 
unit tests (including the ones that use select.select). It's only a 
matter of a month or two more now .....

Out of interest: Does anyone know if developing asynch-socket support 
for jython is the sort of work that might fall under the auspices of the 
PSF grant scheme?

-- 
alan kennedy
------------------------------------------------------
email alan:              http://xhaus.com/contact/alan


From clarkcase at gmail.com  Wed Aug  4 13:34:48 2004
From: clarkcase at gmail.com (Clark Case)
Date: 4 Aug 2004 10:34:48 -0700
Subject: Downsampling streaming MP3s in Windows...
Message-ID: <ad1f74b2.0408040934.46949b7b@posting.google.com>

I've been playing around with Edna, which is a Python streaming MP3
server. My setup is a WindowsXP box with Python 2.3. I'd like to
downsample my high bitrate files, and based on some suggestions I
found on the Edna mailing list, I replaced the line where the MP3 was
being opened with the following line:

f = win32pipe.popen('c:\lame\lame --mp3input -f -b 64 "' + fullpath +
'" -', 'r')

where "fullpath" contains the path to the MP3 file. When try to listen
to the results through WinAmp, the stream seems to buffer up, but then
I get a few seconds of choppy noise and then nothing.

Do I need to somehow buffer the pipe on the server side? Any
suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Clark


From andrewm at object-craft.com.au  Fri Aug 27 21:11:29 2004
From: andrewm at object-craft.com.au (Andrew McNamara)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:11:29 +1000
Subject: Class Friends 
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed204082710091020a3ff@mail.gmail.com> 
References: <20040827081556.657c3fac.a@c.d>
	<pan.2004.08.27.12.55.20.844417@jerf.org>
	<e69d3ed204082710091020a3ff@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040828011129.E4A6B3C113@coffee.object-craft.com.au>

>Really, the double-under mangling is more about stopping a subclass
>from stomping on some internal detail of the base class. In general,
>though, I've found it to be a complete pain in the arse - there's been
>too many times where I've been using an external library and wanted to
>hook into the base class to fix something, and had to use the mangled
>name.

It's more useful when using Mixin classes - as you say, a subclass could
validly want to mess with the implementation of a base class, but a mixin
shouldn't need to touch the internals of another.

-- 
Andrew McNamara, Senior Developer, Object Craft
http://www.object-craft.com.au/


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug  3 11:44:30 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 11:44:30 -0400
Subject: Crypto.PublicKey.RSA.error: Plaintext too large
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1094.1091546280.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1094.1091546280.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <HZmdndW9gsV8L5LcRVn-rg@powergate.ca>

Ajay Brar wrote:

> I am getting an error - Crypto.PublicKey.RSA.error: Plaintext too large 
> - when verifying the signature of a document.
> What i am doing is - the document and the signature are downloaded off 
> the net, my verify script then connects to a server and obtains a public 
> key. It then uses the public key to verify the signature.
> The whole thing works fine when i do the same thing in the interactive 
> interpreter. Its only when i download the files and obtain the public 
> key from the server and then verify, that i get the above error.
> 
> any suggesstions...ideas???

Carriage Return/Line Feed problems?  Or trailing newline problems?

-Peter


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Thu Aug 12 16:06:58 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:06:58 -0400
Subject: multiline snippets with triple quotes
In-Reply-To: <cfgff0$p3o$1@online.de>
References: <cfgff0$p3o$1@online.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121559220.11006-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Christoph Zwerschke wrote:

> So, what would be the pythonic way to implement such multiline snippets?

The textwrap.dedent() function is provided for just this purpose:

 from textwrap import dedent

 if output == html:
     snip =  dedent('''\
                     <html>
                     <head><title>Hello, World</title></head>
                     <body bgcolor="aqua"><h1>What's up?</h1>
                     </html>''')
 else:
     snip = 'Hello!'

textwrap.dedent() removes uniform indentation from the beginning of each 
line in the string, so you can still insert desired indents in a natural 
way.  Note the backslash after the opening quote, and how the actual 
string starts on the next line: dedent() isn't as smart as pydoc when it 
comes to uniformly indenting strings; it doesn't know to skip the first 
line (this helps with more general usage, though).



From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 17:08:59 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 23:08:59 +0200
Subject: Inline Conditionals?
References: <mailman.2472.1093553293.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1gj5est.1598gj51gx6sgrN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Robert Brewer <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote:
   ...
> > aux = []
> > for x in Somelist:
> >     if x.property:
> >         aux.append(foo(x))
> >     else
> >         aux.append(foo(x))
> > 
> > would be vastly more readable; "sparse is better than dense" 
> > and any LC
> > is far too dense to be Pythonic here.
> 
> Case in point: it makes it *vastly* easier to see the typo. What
> happened to bar()?

Closing hours...?


> But you planned that so someone else could deliver the punch line,
> didn't you? ;)

Ahem, yes, why, sure!


Alex


From jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu  Tue Aug  3 08:55:22 2004
From: jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu (John Hunter)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 07:55:22 -0500
Subject: How to dynamically access Numeric subarrays
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.03.11.29.43.247284@unet.univie.ac.at> (Gaubitzer
	Erwin's message of "Tue, 03 Aug 2004 13:29:44 +0200")
References: <pan.2004.08.03.11.29.43.247284@unet.univie.ac.at>
Message-ID: <m28ycw7551.fsf@mother.paradise.lost>

>>>>> "Gaubitzer" == Gaubitzer Erwin <a9605473 at unet.univie.ac.at> writes:

    Gaubitzer> The problem is that the input data varies in its
    Gaubitzer> dimensions so my wanted data can appear at different
    Gaubitzer> positions of the array. I tried to create a list with
    Gaubitzer> the slice on the appropriate position to use it as
    Gaubitzer> indices list in the array but this failed.

    Gaubitzer> So my questions to out there: How can I extract a
    Gaubitzer> (Numeric Python) subarray whose indices have to be
    Gaubitzer> built dynamically.

In Numeric, use the take function

    >>> x = arange(100)
    >>> ind = [23,24,25]
    >>> take(x,ind)
    array([23, 24, 25])

In numarray, you can use index arrays.  See section 4.8 of the
numarray manual for more information -
http://www.stsci.edu/resources/software_hardware/numarray/manualPDF

    >>> x = arange(100)
    >>> ind = array([23,24,25])
    >>> x[ind]
    array([23, 24, 25])

Cheers, 
JDH



From deets.nospaaam at web.de  Thu Aug 19 08:57:09 2004
From: deets.nospaaam at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:57:09 +0200
Subject: timer problem
References: <7j1Vc.218972$p67.10887223@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
Message-ID: <2ojmcfFbfpq0U1@uni-berlin.de>

flupke wrote:
> Now, when i run it, it only prints TIMER CALLED once instead
> of every 2 seconds.
> What am i doing wrong? (Python 2.3.4 on Win2000)


You assume that Timer is looping - it isn't. So make your command start a
Timer itself, like this:

def command():
    print "called"
    t = threading.Timer(2, command )
    t.start()


Or use a Thread, with an endless loop in the run()-method that sleeps for
two secdonds. That spares you the overhead of thread-creation.

Regards,

Diez


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Mon Aug  2 19:57:13 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:57:13 -0700
Subject: Newbie: pywin problem
References: <rCrPc.154159$Mr4.50525@pd7tw1no>
Message-ID: <1091491406.159993@news.commspeed.net>


"Martin DeMello" <martindemello at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rCrPc.154159$Mr4.50525 at pd7tw1no...
> Here's a transcript:
>
> >>> import win32ui
> >>> template = pywin.mfc.docview.DocTemplate(None)
> >>> doc = pywin.scintilla.document.CScintillaDocument(template)
> >>> view = pywin.scintilla.view.CScintillaView(doc)
> >>> fr = win32ui.GetMainFrame()
> >>> view.CreateWindow(fr)
>
> Now how do I get the window to display? I thought the call to
> CreateWindow would do it, but the window just gets created silently.
>
> martin

I would try wxPython at http://wxpython.org/  they have a wrapper for
scintilla and are it is much more Pythonic.

You probably need to do a

somename = view.CreateWindow(fr)
somename.Show(1)

to get your current app to work, but Win32Ui is kinda funny.

Tom Babbitt




From paul at boddie.org.uk  Fri Aug 20 09:44:00 2004
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 06:44:00 -0700
Subject: My only complaint about Python
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<mailman.1996.1092967167.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <5339b60d.0408200544.5159c8a2@posting.google.com>

Tim Peters <tim.peters at gmail.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1996.1092967167.5135.python-list at python.org>...
>
> So you get a fine Cygwin port from Jason Tishler,

[...]

Yes, it certainly is a great port! I'm rarely using the native Python
under Windows, but then Cygwin is an island of sanity in that
environment.

Paul


From John.Marshall at ec.gc.ca  Thu Aug  5 10:17:25 2004
From: John.Marshall at ec.gc.ca (John Marshall)
Date: 05 Aug 2004 14:17:25 +0000
Subject: tweaking @decorator syntax
In-Reply-To: <b03e80d.0408050041.1723eb3c@posting.google.com>
References: <b03e80d.0408040809.66c50ecf@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408041328420.13532-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu> 
	<b03e80d.0408050041.1723eb3c@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1091715445.9931.17.camel@mango.cmc.ec.gc.ca>

On Thu, 2004-08-05 at 08:41, Sandy Norton wrote:
> On 4 Aug 2004, Christopher T King wrote:
>     
> > Of course, I prefer the nested block idea better (either with a new
> > keyword or new syntax), but I don't see those (especially the syntax one) 
> > flying anytime soon.
> 
> I know further discussion of this topic is feeling futile, but one can only hope.
> 
> > Unless someone can come up with an idea everyone can agree on Real Soon 
> > Now, I think the whole idea should be dropped and wait until 3.0.  We'll 
> > have plenty of time to argue about it then.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> > Sorry about the long rant, but it felt good to get that all off my chest.
> 
> Please, we need more rants like yours. Now if they could somehow 
> collectively become a 'public outcry' (-;
> 
> I realize my hasty initial post didn't actually show the present 2.4 form, 
> so I've included it and added your variations for the sake of comparison:
> 

With the current choice and the list of alternatives you gave,
two things struck me about the location of the decorators
in the current choice:
    1) They seem to be in the wrong place with respect to
       what they are affecting.
    2) Can decorators easily be extended to apply to class
       and module?

Whether or not the @ or some other operator/keyword/etc. is
used, what is more easily understandable/readable?
-----
class Klass:
    def __init__(self, name):
        self.name = name
    
    @staticmethod
    def statmethod1(x):
        return x
    
    @classmethod
    def classmethod1(cls):
        return cls
    
    @funcattrs(name='GvR', language='python')
    @log(file='func.log')
    def sayhello(self):
        print 'hello python world'
-----
or
-----
class Klass:
    def __init__(self, name):
        self.name = name
    
    def statmethod1(x):
	@staticmethod

        return x
    
    def classmethod1(cls):
	@classmethod

        return cls
    
    def sayhello(self):
	@funcattrs(name='GvR', language='python')
	@log(file='func.log')

        print 'hello python world'
-----

If the decorators are metadata, that may be extended to affect
not only functions or methods, but classes, and modules(?), I would
think that wherever a variable or function call would go that
would affect the function, method, class, or module, is the
right place for a decorator.

In the alternative above, it _may_ be that the decorators would
only be valid if they are located in specific locations, e.g.,
before any non decorator (or comment, or __doc__ information)
statements.

John



From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug 30 13:26:10 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 17:26:10 GMT
Subject: Size of a remote URL
References: <cgvn5u$p0b@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <41336331$0$65608$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-30, Justin <justin__devine at hotmail.com> wrote:

> I want to track the download of files in a progress bar.  I asume I
> need the final size to do that so I can compare it to the current size
> on disk.

Correct.

> Le tme know if you know anything

I know lots of things. :)  

But, if the server doesn't tell you the content length in the
HTTP headers, there's nothing you can do.



-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  .. does your DRESSING
                                  at               ROOM have enough ASPARAGUS?
                               visi.com            


From rnd at onego.ru  Mon Aug 16 05:56:08 2004
From: rnd at onego.ru (Roman Suzi)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:56:08 +0400 (MSD)
Subject: Best programming language
In-Reply-To: <cfpqlf$7sv$1@news.onet.pl>
References: <mailman.1718.1092639914.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cfpqlf$7sv$1@news.onet.pl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408161355020.1793@rnd.onego.ru>

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, lopex wrote:

>Roman Suzi wrote:
>
>> ;-)
>>
>> Just type into google
>> "best programming language"
>> and press (I am lucky)
>
>Ruby ?

This probably indicates that Python in not well enough described as "best"
for certain domains while Ruby isn't as humble ;-)


>Marcin Mielzynski

Sincerely yours, Roman Suzi
-- 
rnd at onego.ru =\= My AI powered by GNU/Linux RedHat 7.3


From evenprimes at gmail.com  Mon Aug  9 09:28:39 2004
From: evenprimes at gmail.com (Chris Cioffi)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 09:28:39 -0400
Subject: Exceptions as a Control Structure
In-Reply-To: <roy-D4B2EE.09162809082004@reader1.panix.com>
References: <411775aa$0$17867$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<roy-D4B2EE.09162809082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <f03f4fdf04080906285cdfb3fb@mail.gmail.com>

And don't forget about:

for key in sequence:
    foo = dictionary.get(key, "not found")

:)

Chris

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 09:16:28 -0400, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> In article <411775aa$0$17867$626a14ce at news.free.fr>,
> Olivier Parisy <olivier.parisy at free.fr> wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I am new to Python (I just finished Guido's tutorial).
> > I was very surprised to learn there that the StopIteration
> > is used to end for loops in a standard iterator setting.
> >
> > I come from C++, where the use of exceptions as control
> > structures is frowned upon for efficiency reasons.
> >
> > What is the Python canon on this topic ? Are exceptions
> > considered as reasonable control structures, or is
> > StopIteration alone of its kind ?
> 
> Lots of things you do in C++ are frowned upon in Python.  Lots of things
> you do in Python are frowned upon in C++.
> 
> Specifically, exceptions in C++ are generally considered fairly
> heavy-weight, but not so in Python.  Here's another common python idiom
> that uses exceptions in a way which would probably horrify most C++
> people:
> 
> for key in sequence:
>   try:
>      foo = dictionary [key]
>   except KeyError
>      foo = "not found"
> 
> instead of:
> 
> for key in sequence:
>   if dictionary.has_key (key):
>      foo = dictionary [key]
>   else
>      foo = "not found"
> 
> If you're reasonably sure that most of the keys will be found in the
> dictionary, it's probably faster to just try them all and handle the
> occasional exception than to test each key to see if it exists.
> 
> 
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 


-- 
Still searching for an even prime > 2!


From ggg at zzz.it  Tue Aug 31 12:03:39 2004
From: ggg at zzz.it (deelan)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 18:03:39 +0200
Subject: mySQL access
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2677.1093966799.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2677.1093966799.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <atc2hc.0gs.ln@news1.interplanet.it>

Greg Lindstrom wrote:

> Hello-
> 
> I'd like to connect to a mySQL database from Python 2.3 on Windows XP.  I've
> read up on the mySQLdb module, but do not have Microsoft Visual Studio for
> the C++ compile part of the exercise.  Am I hosed?  Or is there a way do
> this without having to have VS?
maybe i'm missing something, but there is a win32 binary download
for mysqldb 1.0 on sf.net:

<http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/mysql-python/MySQL-python-1.0.0.win32-py2.3.zip?download>

project page:
<http://sourceforge.net/projects/mysql-python/>

HTH,
deelan

-- 
@prefix foaf: <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/> .
<#me> a foaf:Person ; foaf:nick "deelan" ;
foaf:weblog <http://www.netspyke.com/> .


From adurdin at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 01:08:22 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:08:22 +1000
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
In-Reply-To: <LIqdnd7Jz9Mspr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1637.1092428855.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<30260531.0408131853.18ec2446@posting.google.com>
	<LIqdnd7Jz9Mspr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a04081522086610a064@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 00:44:32 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> 
> I'm curious why more people don't have "neat!" as their very
> first thought on encountering this, rather than "yuck!".

When I first encountered python, my response was "yuck" also, though
replaced in a few days with "neat". Having programmed quite a bit in C
(with explicit begin and end markers), as well as Basic (with explicit
end markers only), I think the initial reaction was mostly due to lack
of acclimatisation to having no explicit block end-markers.


From bokr at oz.net  Thu Aug 26 15:46:19 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 19:46:19 GMT
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<cghslg$lao$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082600433e025140@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkjm5$3lb$2@sea.gmane.org>
	<cgkprj$3lb$5@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040826075738a8f6ca@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.2437.1093533353.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cglemb$bbv$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:15:46 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:

>Anthony Baxter wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:50:43 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 
>>>Ok.  Then let's jettison the baggage with the word metadata and just
>>>call them 'magic attributes'.  It doesn't matter.  The essential point
>>>about them is that they almost /never have 'local variable' semantics/.
>>>They are attributes of the object being defined.  That's the point I'm
>>>trying to drive home here.  When we define __xxx__ attributes, we are
>>>not intending to create local variables.  No.  We are making declarations.
>> 
>> 
>> Explain to me how __getitem__ is a declaration while getMonkey is not,
>> assuming both are methods.
>> 
>> The only magic attribute that fits your case of "magic attribute" is
>> __metaclass__.
>> The overwhelming number of double-under names are not magic
>> attributes, or metadata, or whatever you want to call them.
>
>__getitem__ is most certainly magical!  Defining it 'declares' 
>(implicitly, but we'll ignore that governing zen rule for the moment) 
>that instances of the containing class have dictionary semantics (that 
>they can be used, in some degree, like dictionaries).  That's magic.
No, it's convention. The convention is that you should write __getitem__
methods for YourClass so that if ycinst = YourClass() then ycinst[key_or_index]
will not break expectation of dict-like or sequence-like access too badly.
But you are free to break the convention.

The __getitem__ name serves as a hook into implementation of ycinst[key_or_index]
which has been designed to use __getitem__ in a predictable way. Similarly with
other double-underscore methods. The names don't declare anything. Their use in
a predictable way by generated code just gives you the opportunity to hook in
your own magic for source that translates to use of such methods.

Your proposal exposes the peculiar sematics of the doc string, which really should
become a discarded string expression where it now appears. IMO it might have been as
good or better to capture text from the first block of comments inside a function
and bind __doc__ to that. Then statement semantics would have been more consistent.

But you are going in the other direction, expanding on special statement semantics
in special contexts, and making double underscore names into special sugar for
something more than names, not just special names with special conventional bindings.
I.e., your __xxx__ becomes a spelling for foo.__xxx__ etc. and an implied moving of
the code to post-definition execution context. I'd rather do that with a prefixed
using: block than with special interpretation of names.

I would rather see see some way to access the current object and its environment
without using its post-definition name binding, and controlling _when_ statements
execute. The decorator syntax provide a when of post-def-execution-pre-name-binding
and it provides current-object binding via the binding to the parameter in the
decorator call. The _when_ for statements in a function body is during-call-execution.
I'd like some of the internal whens to be exposed and hookable. E.g., expanding on
try/finally to provide keyword:suite syntax for what is e.g. currently done with
default-argument hack -- i.e., def-execution-time initialization of values
for every-call-time initialization of local bindings to those values. A version of
that might provide persistent local bindings -- like a private writable closure.

<musing>
A __self__ magic binding could provide access to the current object, and __self__.__enclosing__
could be magic for accessing the textually enclosing entity, which might have another enclosing
entity, so __self__.__enclosing__.__enclosing__ would then be legal. Dynamic spaces similarly,
perhaps locals() and outwards to locals(1) etc.
</musing>

>That's meta.  That's profoundly deeper than anything defining getMonkey 
>does.

ISTM you are looking at __getitem__ from the wrong end of the magic.
The name is a standard method name that various specific source code texts
will generate code to access, e.g. x[3] or x.__class__.__dict__['__getitem__'](x, 3).
The magic is in what people have done with the names, not the names themselves.
The source spelling for generating code using the __metaclass__ name is admittedly
a bit more mysterious than x[y] generating code using __getitem__ ;-)

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From FBatista at uniFON.com.ar  Fri Aug  6 09:35:52 2004
From: FBatista at uniFON.com.ar (Batista, Facundo)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:35:52 -0300 
Subject: [Newby question] List comprehension
Message-ID: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C776D@escpl.tcp.com.ar>

[Eelco Hoekema]

#- # song filter: will return true if the file seems to be an mp3 file. 
#- # (may not be the best way to do this)
#- def song(f):
#-     (name, ext) = os.path.splitext(f)
#-     return ext.lower() == '.mp3'
#- 
#- # list comprehension walking through a directory tree
#- [(root, filter(song, files)) for (root, dir, files) in 
#- os.walk(os.path.abspath('.')) if filter(song, files)]
#- 
#- 
#- </code>
#- 
#- Now, this will work. However, it seems kind of silly to call 
#- the filter
#- twice. Is there a way to keep this in one list 
#- comprehension, but with
#- just filtering once?

files = []
for (root, dir, files) in os.walk(os.path.abspath('.')):
	mp3files = filter(song, files)
	if mp3files:
		files.append((root, mp3files))


Now, explain me why a list comprehension is better here.

.	Facundo


From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Tue Aug 17 16:26:46 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:26:46 -0700
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1782.1092736794.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1782.1092736794.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10i4qeokpk4led5@corp.supernews.com>

Michael Sparks wrote:

>On 17 Aug 2004, Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:
>...
>  
>
>>No, pure includes C modules included with the interpreter.
>>    
>>
>
>See, this I find a ridiculous assertion. After all the modules that get
>included changes. That means one week one implementation will be viewed as
>impure and the next week pure. That's why I think the whole notion of
>purity is ridiculous.
>  
>

The included modules will only change with new versions of Python (and 
not necessarily then).  In practical terms, the need to consider Python 
version is more important for minor syntax incompatibilities than for 
"pure"-ness considerations, but this definition makes it quite clear 
whether something is "pure" Python for any given Python version.

And really, it's not *that* common for major extension packages to start 
out independently and then later be incorporated into the Python 
standard distribution.  There's a few examples, sure... but it's not 
like the list of included modules changes much from week to week, as 
your objection seems to be implying.

Keep in mind, too, that when people talk about something being "pure" 
Python, they're using a practical definition of "pure" rather than a 
pure (theoretical) one. ;)  It's very practical to say, "This program is 
pure Python and runs on version 2.2 or later."  That tells me that if 
I've got a 2.2 or 2.3 interpreter installed, it'll work on my machine -- 
I don't have to worry about whether I can find or compile binaries 
that'll work for my particular system.  I don't care whether or not the 
Python standard library ever calls into compiled code, all I care about 
is whether *I* need a compiler to install it.  (This is especially a 
problem on Windows, where compilers are rarely present; *nix machines 
usually have gcc (or some other cc) installed by default, but compilers 
are not present by default on Windows.)

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Wed Aug 11 02:04:44 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 23:04:44 -0700
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
	<cf8trp$lnp$1@nic.grnet.gr>
	<a22gh0dsb94ffqqjqhb3igufi65ap7pg4d@4ax.com>
	<pkulu1-74f.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<30260531.0408102005.5847b9c@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <3hpou1-09i.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

simo wrote:
> I noticed you have RPMs for Linux - so what do they include - a
> complete wxWidgets/GTK+/Python distribution, plus your files?

$ rpm -qpl dotamatic-0.2-0.i386.rpm
/usr/bin/dotamatic
/usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2
/usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/_localemodule.so
/usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/dotamatic
/usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/dotamatic.css
/usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/libwx_gtkd-2.4.so
/usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/mathmodule.so
/usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/pcre.so
/usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/pwdmodule.so
/usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/resources
/usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/resources/dotamatic.htb
/usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/resources/standard.jpg
/usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/strop.so
/usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/timemodule.so
/usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/wxPython.htmlc.so
/usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/wxPython.wxc.so

The file in /usr/bin is a shell script that just execs the dotamatic
binary in /usr/lib.  The dotmatic executable is actually the Python
interpretter with an archive containing the bytecode appended.
Only the Python and wxPython modules used are present.

If you have a look at my BitPim project file you can see something
that does a lot more, and consequently has way more modules
included.

You can compare the above directory to the one installed on
Windows and will find they are remarkably similar.  The Mac
one is also similar but has some underlying differences.

Roger





From sheldon.johnston at home.firstnet.se  Tue Aug 10 16:16:40 2004
From: sheldon.johnston at home.firstnet.se (Sheldon)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 13:16:40 -0700
Subject: Image
Message-ID: <76655b52.0408101216.4c227052@posting.google.com>

Hi,

Does anyone know how to read an array back into python after writing
it to a .dat file using tostring()?

My method using Image results in a valueerror: data is not enough...

x = open('file.dat')

array = x.read()

print array : results in unreadle garble while

im = Image.fromstring('I', (81,81),array)
gives the valueError: data not enough...

The tutorial on Image leaves a lot to be desired.

Any help or new ideas would be welcomed!

thanks,
Sheldon


From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Aug  6 04:25:17 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 10:25:17 +0200
Subject: Python milestone releases
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.05.22.55.55.192128@rumblefish.org>
References: <pan.2004.08.05.22.55.55.192128@rumblefish.org>
Message-ID: <4113406D.1@v.loewis.de>

Thomas D'Tak wrote:
> The question is now, how to handle this kind of problems?

The Python Business Forum once tried to attack the problem
by planning to release a "Python-in-a-tie" release. This
release would be maintained essentially forever, and they
wanted PythonLabs to commit that this release is not
superceded by another release for atleast a year. Python
2.2 was chosen as the basis, and indeed, it lived for 18
months without a successor. Today, 2.2 is not maintained
anymore by the "usual" maintainers, which have moved towards
2.3 and 2.4. Nobody has taken over maintenance of 2.2,
from which I conclude there is really no need for ongoing
maintenance of old releases.

Now, if your partners are still running Python versions
too old for your software, the pressure to upgrade should
come from you, the one who needs the newer version. Python
supports side-by-side installation of multiple versions,
so this should cause no problem (except for the disk space,
of course).

Regards,
Martin


From ben at benlast.com  Wed Aug 18 08:15:20 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 13:15:20 +0100
Subject: sys.stdin.read() replacement
In-Reply-To: <m3u0v0llr0.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPOEDBCEAA.ben@benlast.com>

> From: python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org
> [mailto:python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org]On Behalf Of
> Michael Hudson
> Uh, I don't think this is the case; sys.stdin.readline() never uses
> the readline functionality.  Do you mean raw_input()?
I think you're right, now I dig deeper: at least one readline module (on
Windows) installs itself in a way that appears to make it the default
handler for keystrokes input in any way.  I think I generalised from that.
Thanks for the correction!

regards
ben


______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
______________________________________________________________________


From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Aug  3 02:32:03 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 08:32:03 +0200
Subject: Rebinding variable, despite global statement
References: <aeca1d18.0408021846.b2a04cc@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cenbh4$opk$03$1@news.t-online.com>

Brian Leair wrote:

> I am using "from MyModule import *", (yes, yes, I know)
> 
> MyModule has a variable "g_my_var" at the "global" scope.
> 
> In the code that performs the import, I have a function that has the
> statement
> "global g_my_var". Despite this, when I try to assign to g_my_var it
> appears I am rebound to a different object.
> Beyond philosophical arguments about not using a "global" variable, is
> there a real reason why I can't assign to the global "g_my_var". I'm
> using python 2.3.2.
> 
> One workaround is to place getter/setters in MyModule, but I was still
> surprised by this behavior.

Let's assume the current module is the main module __main__. After

from MyModule import *

or bettter

from MyModule import g_my_var

you have two independent bindings to the same object. You can think of it as
the two-step process

import MyModule
g_my_var = MyModule.g_my_var
# del MyModule

That you are using the same name in both __main__ and MyModule has no effect
on the general structure. With

def f():
    global g_my_var
    g_my_var = "some value"
f()

you only rebind g_my_var in the current module's global namespace (__main__
in the example).

While you should always think twice before modifying a module from the
outside, a reasonably clean way is to do it like so:

import MyModule

def f():
    MyModule.g_my_var = "some value
f()

Peter






From pellis.no.spam at tampabay.rr.com  Mon Aug  9 21:57:08 2004
From: pellis.no.spam at tampabay.rr.com (Patrick Ellis)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 01:57:08 GMT
Subject: Popular Python projects with lots of pure Python code
References: <mailman.1418.1092088893.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <UXVRc.16085$4s6.9135@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>

Brett C. wrote:
> For my thesis (once the bloody thing stops throwing bugs at me) I am
> going to need to collect stats on the frequency that atomic types in
> local variables are applied to various opcodes and methods.  That
> means that I need something to collect stats off of.
>
> So I am trying to come up with a list of projects I can use to get my
> stats from.  the stdlib is a no-brainer.  Also plan to use Docutils.
> But beyond those most of the big Python projects I can think of have a
> ton of C code which is of no use to me.  I don't need to be able to
> run it, just going to be compiling to .py files.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> -Brett

BoaConstructor




From fumanchu at amor.org  Mon Aug 16 16:21:58 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:21:58 -0700
Subject: mailman mailing list program
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E00@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Carol Carrot wrote:
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 12:52 PM
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Re: mailman mailing list program
> 
> 
> now what is +1 QOTW.supposed to mean?

"QOTW" = "Quote Of The Week"

+1 is part of a generic "voting system", IIRC first used among Apache
developers:

-1 = Don't do it!
-0 = I don't care, so why bother.
+0 = I don't care, so go ahead if you want.
+1 = Do it!

So "+1 QOTW" means, "this gets my positive vote for quote of the week".


HTH,

Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From Vincent.Raaijmakers at ge.com  Mon Aug  2 17:39:19 2004
From: Vincent.Raaijmakers at ge.com (Raaijmakers, Vincent (GE Infrastructure))
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:39:19 -0500
Subject: MySQLdb select
Message-ID: <971323274247EB44B9A01D0A3B424C850B332555@FTWMLVEM02.e2k.ad.ge.com>

I'm so glad that this issue is raised here.
Can someone help me in this thread explaining me how to use multiple parameters.
Jaco helped me already a lot and perhaps someone in this thread can give me the final answer:

My table contains a blob and a bigint for storing images. The table name is also a variable, so the query looks like:
SQL = "INSERT INTO %s (number, image) VALUES (%s, %s)"

Well, I get a mysql exception if the execution looks like:
cursor.execute(SQL, (tableName, aValue, jpgImage))

The execution only works when I fill out the data until the blob value is a 'left over' as a %s:
Yes, this looks ugly.. but it works...

SQL = "INSERT INTO %s (number, image) VALUES (%s," % (tableName, aValue) ## table name and number
SQL += "%s)" ## left over... only the image
cursor.execute(SQL, jpgImage)

Can someone explain this to me?

Vincent



-----Original Message-----
From: python-list-bounces+vincent.raaijmakers=ge.com at python.org
[mailto:python-list-bounces+vincent.raaijmakers=ge.com at python.org]On
Behalf Of Harald Massa
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 5:41 PM
To: python-list at python.org
Subject: Re: MySQLdb select


Ruben,

it is considered bad style wihtin c.l.p. to have aggressive emotions 
apart from mails about a "ternary operator"

The correct way would have been:

> > cursor.execute("SELECT * FROM mytest where clientID = %d" % numb)
>>
>> That's particularly BAD STYLE. It's best to keep to letting the
>> DB-API do the proper quoting for all parameters.

"Gerhard, why is this BAD STYLE? And how can I make the DB-API do the 
proper quoting for all parameters?"


And probably the answer would have been:

with doing 

"SELECT * FROM mytest where clientID = %d" % numb 

you are using the standard Python String-Formatting Functions. That may 
or may not lead to success.

Especially when using a mixture of strings and numbers, they have to be 
quoted differently.

Also special characters within strings have to be quoted - for example, 
the single ' has to be quoted within SQL because it is usually used as 
string delimiter

cursor.execute("SELECT * FROM mytest where clientID = %d" , numb)

The "," is the magic -

with "Bla " % sth you are passing ONE argument --- the %s gets 
substituted, and one argument gets passed to the function.

With "," two arguments get passed to the execute-"function" so that the 
DB-API has the challenge to integrate the parameters into the SQL-String.

And it is more bad style to write

"SELECT * FROM mytest where clientID = %d" % numb 

because % is defined with using a Tuple as second parameter, that would 
be
"clientID = %d" % (numb,)

Using % with sth. else than a tuple may succeed or give you very funny 
errors if numb happens to be a List in a later run.

Best wishes,

Harald
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Wed Aug 11 15:08:08 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 19:08:08 GMT
Subject: pyparsing 1.2.1 preview (2)
Message-ID: <s8uSc.2004$nu2.870@fe2.texas.rr.com>

I'm finishing a minor bug-fix release to version 1.2 for pyparsing, and have
uploaded the pyparsing code to CVS on my SourceForge project page.  There is
one bug-fix that may change some behavior when using results names for
accessing token groups within the parsed token results.  If there are any
pyparsing fans out there who would like an advance look at this release, I'd
appreciate any test feedback.

This minor release also includes the new SkipTo class, and the
dictOf(keyExpression,valueExpression) helper function.

Thanks,
-- Paul




From db3l at fitlinxx.com  Fri Aug 13 14:14:09 2004
From: db3l at fitlinxx.com (David Bolen)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 14:14:09 -0400
Subject: Pyhton Interpreter Startup time
References: <mailman.1556.1092304607.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<30260531.0408120829.27a536bc@posting.google.com>
	<EvadnaKm3bI9N4bcRVn-iQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <un00yj47i.fsf@fitlinxx.com>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> writes:

> I don't recall the OP in the last thread that discussed this
> ever coming back to report on exactly what OS and CPU etc.
> he was using, and whether network issues might be involved,
> etc, so until someone can prove otherwise, I think it's
> safe to assume that anyone with a slow startup on Windows
> has a misconfiguration or is doing something wrong.

I don't think that's a safe assumption.  For example, on a PIII-550
box running NT that I use, the first time I start up Python after a
prolonged absence (typically through a night when a virus scan is run)
it can take several seconds to start.  The same holds true if I switch
versions of Python for comparisons (the first time a new version is
run takes a few seconds).

Subsequent executions of the same version are sub-second (albeit not
always by much).

There's no network issues involved (everything referenced during
startup is local), but to be honest, I'm not surprised, as I can
clearly hear my disk getting hit hard, and expect that absolutely
nothing was in the disk cache related to Python, so getting it loaded
and all the initial startup files loaded simply takes some time.

The fact that I experience similar noticeable delays with loading just
about everything else the first time after the nightly outage (e.g.,
the first time Outlook needs to load in IE to display an HTML message
encounters a very noticeable multi-second delay with heavy disk I/O)
makes me doubly think that the nightly virus scan is flushing just
about everything out of cache.

Similar startups on a PIII-333 running a Gentoo 2.4.x Linux install
definitely "feel" a bit faster.  For example, using "python -v" on
both systems presents the same list of loaded modules (replacing
posix/posixpath with nt/ntpath under Windows) and then an additional
readline load once the interpreter starts under Linux.  However, the
Linux session just streams those module load messages while you can
visually "see" each message coming out in turn with a tiny delay
between them under Windows.  I haven't run timing measurements, but
it's noticeable enough that while they might not be major, I'm
confident they are there.

So for whatever reason, Windows does behave a bit more sluggishly than
Linux in my case.  Maybe it's the use of the DLL with Windows (don't
know if any relocations have to take place) versus the static binary
under Linux.  Maybe it's just slightly better filesystem I/O (my
Windows box may be more fragmented and/or fuller filesystems).
Certainly doesn't affect me in normal operation, but I guess if I was
starting Python very frequently I'd work on it more.

I also don't think there's much room for Python to be at fault at
least in my case - e.g., if anything it's system behavior and not
really local operations Python is performing.

But I don't think it automatically implies that my Windows system is
misconfigured or that I'm doing something wrong.  Of course, my
timings aren't the consistent 5+ second startups that some others have
posted about, in which cases I do agree there might be an unexpected
network dependency or something else amiss.

-- David



From fumanchu at amor.org  Thu Aug 26 13:52:30 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:52:30 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E88@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Paul Rubin wrote:
> I'm still not crazy about J2 but I like "per" much better 
> than "using".
> 
> I'm afraid that the clpy proposals, and the @pie syntax, both seem to
> me like "extreme programming", i.e. an approach of "if you see a
> reasonable looking approach to a problem, implement it without
> worrying too much, and re-do ('refactor') it afterwards if it turns
> out not to be the right thing.  But for new language syntax, whatever
> gets implemented, we are going to be stuck with.  There will be no
> refactoring possible.  It's imperative to get it right the first time.
> The Scheme community understood this idea and was extremely careful
> about adding new features to Scheme even when it was clear that the
> features were needed.  I think Scheme benefited as a result.

FWIW, I agree. On this level, the J2 proposal is an attempt to cram what
should have been a longer discussion into a short time frame. But that's
our fault as a community--this should've been done in April at the
latest.

I await the ultimate irony, that after all the furor, Guido may decide
to pull decorators out of 2.4 entirely during beta. ;)


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From bvande at po-box.mcgill.ca  Tue Aug 10 16:26:31 2004
From: bvande at po-box.mcgill.ca (Brian van den Broek)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:26:31 -0400
Subject: Decorators proposal
In-Reply-To: <10hi6bidesj3aae@corp.supernews.com>
References: <19b62f17.0408100741.7f2712ac@posting.google.com>
	<cfas0h$olv$1@news1.wdf.sap-ag.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408101253001.7362-100000@ccc2.wpi.edu>
	<10hi6bidesj3aae@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <41192F77.6030309@po-box.mcgill.ca>

Jeff Shannon said unto the world upon 2004-08-10 14:52:

> Christopher T King wrote:
> 
>>> RebelGeekz wrote:
>>>   
>>>
>>>> Just my humble opinion:
>>>>
>>>> def bar(low,high):
>>>>    meta:
>>>>        accepts(int,int)
>>>>        returns(float)
>>>>    #more code
>>>>     
>>
>>
>> Ooh, perty!  I especially like the extension of this idea into function
>> attributes; it looks even cleaner than the .attribute syntax I like.
>>
>> The only problem I see with this is that Guido seems to want 
>> decorators to
>> be more prominent than the function signature itself, so he probably
>> certainly won't go for "hiding" then in a doubly-nested block. 
> 
> 
> More to the point, GvR seems to have decided that decorators, as 
> something that *wraps* a function, belong *outside* the function def 
> rather than inside it.  Being inside the def implies that it's internal 
> to the function, which decorators are not.
> 
> I can see the logic in that, but I really dislike the contorted prefix 
> syntax that's necessary to support the alternative.
> 
> Jeff Shannon
> Technician/Programmer
> Credit International

Hi all,

I'm far too new to programming and Python for my opinion to have even 
feather-weight. I'd been wondering about something similar to the above 
the last few days, but hadn't posted as I didn't feel informed enough 
about the issues. Now that this sort of solution is under some discussion, 
though, I cannot resist.

 From reading much of the @-explosion in the python-dev list it seemed to 
me that Guido's main objection to any syntax that put the decorators after 
the def was that it made it look like the decorators were part of the 
executing function, rather than run only when the def is first run. 
(Similar reasoning seemed behind the expression of regret that docstrings 
aren't above defs.)

Both for decorators and docstrings, putting them above seems odd to 
me--documenting and modifying what exactly? Oh, something lower down :-| 
This way seems to separate them from the function's executable code, yet 
put them where my brain seems to expect them. And, the extra indent makes 
them fairly prominent to my eye.

The other objection I've seen a lot to the general sort of thing proposed 
above would be that it takes a new keyword (though I've read Guido 
relaxing the "no new keyword for decorators" restriction). Could that be 
met either by using a bare ':' or by having ':meta'? (Maybe I am wrong, 
but :name isn't legal outside of slicing is it? And certainly not as the 
start of a line? Thus, wouldn't this eliminate any conflict between this 
use of 'meta' and any possible use of 'meta' as a variable?)

Anyway, conceptually and aesthetically this sort of proposal seems the 
best I've read about. Here's hoping someone with more credibility, 
knowledge, and a better sense of pythonic politics [not meant with any 
snide tone] decides to champion it.

Best to all,

Brian vdB



From mwh at python.net  Fri Aug  6 11:33:20 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:33:20 GMT
Subject: Queue qsize = unreliable?
References: <mailman.1277.1091805846.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m3llgsqo1s.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

"James R. Saker Jr." <jsaker at americanrelay.com> writes:

> I see per pydoc that Queue.Queue()'s .qsize is allegedly unreliable:
> 
>      |  qsize(self)
>      |      Return the approximate size of the queue (not reliable!).
> 
> Any thoughts on why this is unreliable (and more curiously, why it would
> be put in there as an unreliable function?) Rather than roll my own
> threaded fifo class, it would seem prudent to use Python's built-in
> Queue but the warning signs on a rather necessary function seem curious.

Well, by the time you examine (or even get!) the answer, it might be
wrong.  Kinda hard to avoid this in the setting of multiple threads!

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
 All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that
 the parts you are  reassembling were disassembled by you.  Therefore,
 if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all
 means, do not use a hammer.           -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sun Aug  8 21:34:39 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 11:34:39 +1000
Subject: PEP-0318
In-Reply-To: <4116bc20$1@nntp.zianet.com>
References: <41122FC2.1080608@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1251.1091764482.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4114152f@nntp.zianet.com> <aIOdnRybBucMsIncRVn-gA@comcast.com>
	<4116bc20$1@nntp.zianet.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204080818344e0e8c3e@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 19:49:51 -0400, Mark Bottjer
<mark_bottjer at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I noticed you posted the "@decorators at the top of function body"
> > idea right before I posted it here, too.  See the "compromise?"
> > thread.
> 
> This idea seems to have occurred to a few people independently. Another
> guy apparently beat me to posting it by a day or so. Here's hoping that
> someone with "cred" will see it and like it enough to promote it to GvR.

Guido has ruled out decorators at the top of function body, on the grounds
that it looks like something that would be executed as part of the function,
but isn't. FWIW, in the same thread he's noted that having docstrings where
they are is problematic in this respect. Fortunately, with the new decorator
syntax, we can fix this...

def doc(docstring):
    def add_doc_string(func, docstring=docstring):
        func.__doc__ = docstring
        return func
    return add_doc_string

@doc("This function frobulates an input sequence")
def frob(seq):
    ....


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Sat Aug 28 20:38:27 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 02:38:27 +0200
Subject: regex into str
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408290203530.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>


I want to use regular expressions with less typing. Like this:

    A / 'b.(..)'     # test for regex 'b...' in A
    A[0]             # get the last whole match
    A[1]             # get the first group in the last match

    A /= 'b.','X',1  # replace first occurence of regex 'b.'
                     #    in A with 'X'
    A /= 'b.','X'    # replace all occurences of regex 'b.'
                     #    in A with 'X'

This works fine if I create a class derived from 'str' and put
in the right functions. I have a demonstration below.

But what I really want is to insert these functions into class
'str' itself, so I can use them on ordinary strings:

    def __div__(self, regex):
        p = re.compile(regex)
        self.__sre__ = p.search(self)
        return str(self.__sre__.group())

    setattr(str, '__div__', __div__)

But when I try this I get:

    TypeError: can't set attributes of built-in/extension type 'str'

I there a way to get this done?




Working example:


#!/usr/bin/env python

import re

class Mystr(str):
    def __div__(self, regex):
        p = re.compile(regex)
        self.sre = p.search(self)
        return Mystr(self.sre.group())

    def __idiv__(self, tpl):
        try:
            regex, repl, count = tpl
        except ValueError:
            regex, repl = tpl
            count = 0
        p = re.compile(regex)
        return Mystr(p.sub(repl, self, count))

    def __call__(self, g):
        return self.sre.group(g)

if __name__ == '__main__':
    a = Mystr('abcdebfghbij')
    print "a :", a

    print "Match a / 'b(..)(..)' :",
    print a / 'b(..)(..)'              # find match

    print "a[0], a[1], a[2] :",
    print a[0], a[1], a[2]             # print letters from string

    print "a(0), a(1), a(2) :",
    print a(0), a(1), a(2)             # print matches

    print "a :", a

    a /= 'b.', 'X', 1     # find and replace once
    print "a :", a

    a /= 'b.', 'X'        # find and replace all
    print "a :", a



-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 31 07:00:32 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:00:32 +0200
Subject: about presicion
References: <8f17f4bc.0408261434.1a73e874@posting.google.com>
	<2e363c08.0408261912.2358a016@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.2518.1093611862.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<8f17f4bc.0408281303.3cfb4199@posting.google.com>
	<JN6dnW6HuNiU06zcRVn-pA@powergate.ca>
	<20040829041630.28913.00001771@mb-m26.aol.com>
	<1gjc13i.rx89x319njqe2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgvmpg$8uc@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <1gjdvbc.3lhlg6soyrudN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

mensanator at aol.com <mensanator at aol.com> wrote:
   ...
> > > I just tried it and found out it's not compatible with gmpy.
> >
> > By "it" do you mean Decimal, or Python 2.4 alpha 2?
> 
> By "it", I meant gmpy 1.0 and Python 2.4. Trying to import the
> module says it can't use the Python23.dll.

_Any_ binary extension Python module compiled for Python 2.3 cannot even
load (on Windows) with Python 2.4 -- this has always been true on
Windows between any two releases of Python and will presumably continue
to be so for the foreseeable future.

This doesn't mean that Python 2.4 "is not compatible with gmpy" or
viceversa: it just means you obviously need to use a gmpy binary (pyd
file) compiled for the version of Python you're using.  Just as it would
be the case for any other binary extension module whatsoever.

Unfortunately, compiling any binary extension module on Windows for
Python 2.4 requires Microsoft's very latest C++ compiler -- I do not own
a copy, nor do I have any PC normally running Windows XP, which is
required to run that compiler.  Until Pyhon 2.3, I made do with a
Windows 98 session running under win4lin on one of my Linux machines,
and good old Microsoft Visual C++ 6 -- but such limited resources are
not sufficient any longer to compile Python binary extension modules for
Python 2.4.  Since in terms of income-making (as well as leisure;-) I
work by now only on MacOSX, Linux, and OpenBSD machines, I am not going
to buy a PC loaded with Microsoft software just to be able to donate
precompiled Python binary extension modules to Windows users.


> > I think gmpy should
> > build happily with the latter,
> 
> I'm using the pre-built Windows binary distribution. I wouldn't
> know how to re-build it. I assume that when Python 2.4 is final,
> I newer compatible version of gmpy will become available.

Not by magic -- I hope somebody out there owns all the needed Microsoft
software and is interested in compiling gmpy for Windows under Python
2.4 and making it available, but it won't be me.


> > and interoperate sensibly with Decimal
> > anyway -- as gmpy's author I'd be quite happy to fix gmpy if it's
> broken
> > in either respect.
> 
> Were you aware that there is apparently a memory leak in the
> gmpy.divm() function? Calling it several million time caused my
> computer to run out of virtual memeory. Luckily, I was able to
> work around it using the gmpy.invert() which didn't consume any
> memory regardless of how many times it was called.

No, I was not aware of that -- I'll look into it, thanks.


Alex


From mwh at python.net  Thu Aug 19 13:39:42 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:39:42 GMT
Subject: Calling __init__ for all mixins
References: <cfvr8l$56q$1@wheel2.two14.net>
	<mailman.1908.1092866218.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cg1btq$md7$1@wheel2.two14.net>
Message-ID: <m3y8kbjach.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Martin Maney <maney at pobox.com> writes:

> Shalabh Chaturvedi <shalabh at cafepy.com> wrote:
> > The new-style super mechanism might indeed solve your problem. In the 
> > snippet that you mention, super(NewStyleOnly, self).__init__() would 
> > only call A.__init__(). But A.__init__ should itself have a super call 
> > of the form:
> 
> > def __init__(self):
> >     super(A, self).__init__()   # A's super call
> 
> > Now *that* will call B.__init__(), which should itself have a super call 
> 
> I will be dipped in shit.  So let me see... super(this_here_class,
> self) can and will resolve to a class that is not in any sane meaning
> of the word a super class of this_here_class, but rather a co-base of
> it?

No.  super(this_here_class, self) returns, well, a super() object that
when you look for an attribute on it acts a bit like `self.__class__'
but only looks in classes later than `this_here_class' in the MRO.

Don't worry too much if that didn't make sense, but it's probably a
good idea to get the thought that super() returns a class out of your
head.

> This is either brilliant or pure crack.  I'll have to ponder it for
> a good long while.

It's brilliant :-)

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  > Well, as an American citizen I hope that the EU tells the MPAA 
  > and RIAA to shove it where the Sun don't shine.
  Actually they already did. Only first they bent over and dropped
  their trousers.      -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz & Toni Lassila, asr


From bockman at virgilio.it  Sun Aug 22 12:06:57 2004
From: bockman at virgilio.it (Francesco Bochicchio)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 16:06:57 GMT
Subject: VHHL :( was Re: Python future performance and speed)
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<roy-37CEFC.10153622082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<wt6dncL0d4DMJLXcRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.22.16.06.56.409588@virgilio.it>

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:20:42 -0400, Peter Hansen wrote:

> * I limit this to scripting languages since it's quite certain
> that the mainstream *has* accepted high level languages quite
> fully.  The last time I checked, Java and C++ (even C) were
> widely considered to be high level languages.  Has someone been
> raising the bar while I wasn't looking?

I heard sometime Python referred as a 'Very High Level Language', that is
a notch on the top of Java, and more than that on top of C++. I concur
with this definition, since  Python is for me closer to the developers
mind (and thus more distant from the machine) than any other language I
use (including Java, C++, C and ADA). 
So, the bar has been raised, in a way:-). 
And VHLLs will become more and more used as computer power grows and
becomes cheaper than developer time (it is already so in several
application areas).


From 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de  Tue Aug 17 05:19:30 2004
From: 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de (510046470588-0001 at t-online.de)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 11:19:30 +0200
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<7xk6vyczck.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<slrnci3blq.4kh.npat@gray.efault.net>
Message-ID: <87657iglzx.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>

Nick Patavalis <npat at efault.net> writes:

> On 2004-08-17, Paul Rubin <> wrote:
> >
> > Compilers for languages like Lisp and Smaltalk have dealt with this
> > for decades.  They can either generate code that switches on the type
> > tags, or have dispatch tables in the objects that point to code for
> > operations like "+", or take advice or declarations from the
> > programmer about the arg types, among other possibilities.  Any of
> > these approaches generates code that runs much faster than
> > interpreted code.
> >
> 
> Yes, I know. Something like this was what I was thinking about. I
> would really love to see this technology brought to Python, or at
> least a discussion as to what additions would be required in the
> *language* in order for similar technologies to be easily applicable
> to future Pythonic environments.
> 

those compilers are totally unflexible,
as they can't deal with data types and function code supplied at run time,
and they cache too much information, causing bloat of the ram.

Klaus Schilling


From Sibylle.Koczian at Bibliothek.Uni-Augsburg.de  Tue Aug 10 09:02:06 2004
From: Sibylle.Koczian at Bibliothek.Uni-Augsburg.de (Sibylle Koczian)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:02:06 +0200
Subject: How do I get IDLE on Suse Linux 9.x?
In-Reply-To: <0G1Sc.149588$fv.89578@fe2.columbus.rr.com>
References: <0G1Sc.149588$fv.89578@fe2.columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2nrvaeF41g4hU1@uni-berlin.de>

michael schrieb:

> Hi.
> 
> I am reasonably experienced with Python (and love it!) on Windows. I am a
> programmer that toils in c++ on Win 32 mostly but just to learn more, I am
> playing with Suse 9. Linux.
> 
> Of course the first thing I tried to fire up was Python. From the command
> line, I can access Python 2.3 with no problem.
> 
> I tried to run / search for IDLE which I thought was a standard install on
> any python installation but it is not present.
> 
Did you check with Yast2 or with the rpm command? If you've got SuSE 9.1 
in the professional version I can tell you for sure IDLE is on the CD 
but you might not have installed it. It's got its own package. I can't 
really think it's missing from 9.0. And with the personal version you 
probably wouldn't have Python either (that comes without a C compiler, 
even).

I'm not within reach of my Linux box at the moment so I can't tell you 
the exact package name or things like that. But I'm a Linux newbie 
myself and I found it without problems so it must have been quite easy.

> My question is this: Should I just use a text editor and go without IDLE? Is
> there another IDE standard on Linux? Do I need to download something to get
> IDLE?
> 
Most probably no to all three. If you don't find it using Yast2 or rpm, 
come back and I'll look for details in my installation.

HTH
Koczian


From grante at visi.com  Fri Aug 13 12:56:20 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 16:56:20 GMT
Subject: PEP 318 decorators are not Decorators
References: <Xns9543CB4CF5EDFarienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.7>
	<cfhsri$a1q$1@news1.wdf.sap-ag.de>
	<Xns95446284A8DA2arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.29>
Message-ID: <411cf2b4$0$65563$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-13, Arien Malec <arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE> wrote:

>>> decorator. One of the issues is that the Decorator pattern is more
>> 
>> The term decorator as used in the current discussion comes
>> from compiler writing. You have a syntax 'tree' which gets
>> 'decorated' with additional attributes.
>
> 1) That's not mentioned in PEP 318
> 2) That's in disagreement with http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators
> 3) Won't most programmers think GoF decorators before compiler syntax tree 
>    decorators?

Thank you!  I spent a while reading up on "decorators" the
other day and was completely baffled.  I couldn't see that the
stuff in PEP 318 discussion threads had anything at all to do
with what was discussed by the references I found on
"decorators" (which were all about "design pattern" stuff).
So, I gave up and went back to work on writing a strip-chart
recorder using the Gnuplot module.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  I'm shaving!! I'M
                                  at               SHAVING!!
                               visi.com            


From osuchw at ecn.ab.ca  Sun Aug 15 18:29:27 2004
From: osuchw at ecn.ab.ca (Waldemar Osuch)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:29:27 GMT
Subject: Seperating CSV rows into new, seperate files
In-Reply-To: <d28d42ec.0408151245.44aa2901@posting.google.com>
References: <d28d42ec.0408131940.3b95e9bd@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1653.1092491778.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<d28d42ec.0408151245.44aa2901@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <btRTc.114119$M95.13529@pd7tw1no>

TonyB wrote:
> In any case, it appears
> that the new files have some sort of additional line terminator that
> creates a blank row in the outputted file making the importing of the
> list impossible.   

When writing to a file using csv.writer on Windows open the file in 
binary format.

> row[SECTION])
>    fileobj = file(filename, 'a')
>    newfile = csv.writer(fileobj)
>    newfile.writerow(row)
>    fileobj.close() 
so
fileobj = file(filename, 'a')
becomes
fileobj = file(filename, 'ab')

That should fix it.

Waldek


From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Aug  6 18:32:47 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 00:32:47 +0200
Subject: PEP 263 status check
In-Reply-To: <10h7tb8nn53ajbb@news.supernews.com>
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com> <4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de>
	<10h5hgvpafm8a64@news.supernews.com> <41133C76.8040302@v.loewis.de>
	<10h6rklt3fa1690@news.supernews.com> <41137799.70808@v.loewis.de>
	<10h724r20kkeqb2@news.supernews.com> <4113D8DF.8080106@v.loewis.de>
	<10h7tb8nn53ajbb@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <4114070F.90507@v.loewis.de>

John Roth wrote:
> Martin, I think you misinterpreted what I said at the
> beginning. I'm only, and I need to repeat this, ONLY
> dealing with the case where the encoding declaration
> specifically says that the script is in UTF-8. No other
> case.

 From the viewpoint of PEP 263, there is absolutely *no*,
and I repeat NO difference between chosing UTF-8 and
chosing windows-1252 as the source encoding.

> I'm going to deal with your response point by point,
> but I don't think most of this is really relevant. Your
> response only makes sense if you missed the point that
> I was talking about scripts that explicitly declared their
> encoding to be UTF-8, and no other scripts in no
> other circumstances.

I don't understand why it is desirable to single out
UTF-8 as a source encoding. PEP 263 does no such thing,
except for allowing an addition encoding declaration
for UTF-8 (by means of the UTF-8 signature).

> I didn't mean the entire source was in 7-bit ascii. What
> I meant was that if the encoding was utf-8 then the source
> for 8-bit string literals must be in 7-bit ascii. Nothing more.

PEP 263 never says such a thing. Why did you get this impression
after reading it?

*If* you understood that byte string literals can have the full
power of the source encoding, plus hex-escaping, I can't see what
made you think that power did not apply if the source encoding
was UTF-8.

> L:ikewise. I never thought otherwise; in fact I'd like to expand
> the availible operators to include the set operators as well as
> the logical operators and the "real" division operator (the one
> you learned in grade school - the dash with a dot above and
> below the line.)

That would be a different PEP, though, and I doubt Guido will be
in favour. However, this is OT for this thread.

> It's predictable, but as far as I'm concerned, that's
> not only useless behavior, it's counterproductive
> behavior. I find it difficult to imagine any case
> where the benefit of having normal character
> literals accidentally contain utf-8 multi-byte
> characters outweighs the pain of having it happen
> accidentally, and then figuring out why your program
> is giving you wierd behavior.

Might be. This is precisely the issue that Hallvard is addressing.
I agree there should be a mechanism to check whether all significant
non-ASCII characters are inside Unicode literals.

I personally would prefer a command line switch over a per-file
declaration, but that would be the subject of Hallvard's PEP.
Under no circumstances I would disallow using the full source
encoding in byte strings, even if the source encoding is UTF-8.

> There's no reason why you have to have a utf-8
> encoding declaration. If you want your source to
> be utf-8, you need to accept the consequences.

Even for UTF-8, you need an encoding declaration (although
the UTF-8 signature is sufficient for that matter). If
there is no encoding declaration whatsoever, Python will
assume that the source is us-ascii.

> I fully expect Python to support the usual mixture
> of encodings until 3.0 at least. At that point, everything
> gets to be rewritten anyway.

I very much doubt that, in two ways:
a) Python 3.0 will not happen, in any foreseeable future
b) if it happens, much code will stay the same, or only
    require minor changes. I doubt that non-UTF-8 source
    encoding will be banned in Python 3.

> Were you able to write your entire program in UTF-8?
> I think not.

What do you mean, your entire program? All strings?
Certainly you were. Why not?

Of course, before UTF-8 was an RFC, there were no
editors available, nor would any operating system
support output in UTF-8, so you would need to
organize everything on your own (perhaps it was
simpler on Plan-9 at that time, but I have never
really used Plan-9 - and you might have needed
UTF-1 instead, anyway).

Regards,
Martin


From me at privacy.net  Thu Aug 19 11:19:40 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Richard Hanson)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:19:40 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<mailman.1866.1092838539.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7re9i095r921mmgemacgn24rp0h7ijdun4@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <04h9i05oadjlq949hrqdmu752a224r4odt@4ax.com>

Richard Hanson wrote:

>Mike C. Fletcher wrote:
>
>>It's so much more efficient to just make up the statistics.
>
>Not *that's* a quote!

Uhh... Meant, of course:

"Now, *that's* a quote!"

proof-reading-after-the-fact'ly y'rs,
Richard


From bauer at mit.edu  Fri Aug 13 09:02:38 2004
From: bauer at mit.edu (SJB)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 06:02:38 -0700
Subject: Python and linux netlink sockets
Message-ID: <e4694b23.0408130502.51bbed5@posting.google.com>

I wanted to use python to receive some messages from the linux kernel
via way of netlink sockets.  However this doesn't seem to be supported
from everything I have been able to find so far.

Can someone clue me in if I am wrong or not.

Thanks,
Steve


From stehenry at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 21 05:22:32 2004
From: stehenry at yahoo.com (stephen henry)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 02:22:32 -0700
Subject: C language processing.
Message-ID: <845db307.0408210122.70bfd408@posting.google.com>

Hi all,

I'm looking for a python module that would allow me to take an input
file written in 'c' and modify the contents to allow me to, for
example, add arguments to functions, insert macros at specific
locations etc. I have no formal education in computer science , but,
what I believe I'm looking for is somesort of parser (or lexer?).

So far, I found a bunch of pasers (SimpleParse and SPARK) but these
seem to be quite generic -non-language specifc. I was hoping that the
'c' langauge was sufficiently well known to be supported natively,
meaning that I would't need to enter the grammar rules into the
parser.

Does anybody know of a way of doing this in python? (Or, for that
matter, with Perl, as I would be learning either language to carry
this out.)

Stephen Henry


From bmbeck at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 23:47:43 2004
From: bmbeck at gmail.com (Brandon)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 20:47:43 -0700
Subject: Has anyone implemented BASIC in Python?
References: <2oo13eFcj548U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <1b5c4527.0408221947.42b8969c@posting.google.com>

Not exactly what you're looking for, but I've implemented a scheme to
python translator.  It converts a subset of scheme into python code
that should correctly run through eval/exec.

It can be found here:
http://www.isomorphism.org/~bbeck/projects/scheme2py/scheme2py.html


Leif K-Brooks <eurleif at ecritters.biz> wrote in message news:<2oo13eFcj548U1 at uni-berlin.de>...
> Has anyone ever tried implementing a simple unstructured BASIC dialect 
> in Python? I'm getting interested in language implementation, and 
> looking at a reasonably simple example like that could be pretty 
> interesting.


From porky_pig_jr at my-deja.com  Mon Aug 23 21:10:36 2004
From: porky_pig_jr at my-deja.com (Porky Pig Jr)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 18:10:36 -0700
Subject: newbie: confused with example in Learning Python 2nd Edition: can
	anyone give a hint
Message-ID: <56cfb0e3.0408231710.27d78703@posting.google.com>

Here is an example of Stack class which got me totally confused:

>>> class Stack:
...     def __init__(self, data):
...             self._data = list(data)
...             self.push = data.append
...             self.pop = data.pop
... 

What I don't understand: we take the 'data' input (a list), and copy
it to semi-private instance attribute _data. Something like this:

>>> mystack = Stack([1,2,3])
>>> dir(mystack)
['__doc__', '__init__', '__module__', '_data', 'pop', 'push']
>>> mystack._data
[1, 2, 3]

So: why defitions of self.push and self.pop are defined as
'data.append' rather than '_data.append', etc. What makes me yet more
confused: the whole thing works just fine, and yet I can't figure out
in which attribute we store the results of pushes and where pops are
coming from.
Like I push '4' on a stack:

>>> mystack.push(4)

and yet this does not affect _data (obviously):
>>> mystack._data
[1, 2, 3]

and yet '4' is stored *somewhere*, since pop() produces the right
result:

>>> mystack.pop()
4
>>> 

Where is that hidden instance attribute and how can I access it? Seems
like very simple definition, and yet there is something tricky about
it.

TIA.


From kevino at tulane.edu  Wed Aug 25 13:41:00 2004
From: kevino at tulane.edu (Kevin Ollivier)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:41:00 -0700
Subject: [ANN] EClass.Builder 2.5.4.17
Message-ID: <EDE16284-F6BD-11D8-AC2D-000393CB1C86@tulane.edu>

EClass.Builder is a wxPython application for Windows and Mac OS X 
(source works on Linux, but there aren't any packages yet) that helps 
authors develop CD, web-based or print (PDF) tutorials or 
documentation, such as learning modules and product documentation. It 
was originally designed specifically for learning module development, 
hence the name "EClass". The primary goal of this software is to 
simplify the technical effort needed to produce a CD, web-based and 
print publication so that authors can focus on writing the content - 
not formatting and converting it.

To that end, EClass.Builder has been designed with flexibility in mind, 
anticipating that people would use diverse content types to produce 
their publications and want customized look and feel for their 
publications. Because of this, EClass is designed from the ground up to 
be extensible. You can add support for new content types via plugins 
(written in Python, of course) and create new web designs using a 
simple web templating engine. (The move to a more powerful templating 
engine is under consideration.) You can also write Python scripts to 
support template macros, such as "breadcrumbs" or other 
navigation/functionality elements of the page. There are already a 
couple plugins (such as the web page plugin, which lets you visually 
edit HTML using wxMozilla) and themes (just a default theme now, in 
frames and non-frames modes).

It also allows for full-text search capabilities, and with the help of 
Documancer (see http://documancer.sf.net) in the future it will support 
bookmarking of pages and highlighted search results.

If you are interested in a tool that makes documentation creation easy 
with a clean and consistent looking interface, please take a look at 
EClass.Builder! You can learn more about the software and download it 
by going to:

http://www.eclass.net

Please check the documentation first - EClass is a bit different from 
other programs, which typically deal with "files" rather than 
"publications", and so it may take a few minutes to get used to. (Note 
that I used EClass.Builder to create the web site, using a custom theme 
and wxMozilla. ;-)

Also, I'd love to hear people's thoughts about the product. Suggestions 
and constructive criticism are very welcome! =)

Thanks,

Kevin Ollivier



From tonym1972{at}club-internet{in}fr  Sun Aug 22 20:27:41 2004
From: tonym1972{at}club-internet{in}fr (Anthony McDonald)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 02:27:41 +0200
Subject: Debunking Art - fraudster with python AI engine?
References: <4128f60b$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>
Message-ID: <412938aa$0$306$7a628cd7@news.club-internet.fr>

"Nick" <primz at bigpond.com> wrote in message 
news:4128f60b$1 at news.unimelb.edu.au...
> Hi,
>
> I recently went to an art exhibition, and one of the artists had an AI
> engine projected onto a screen with a keyboard for visitors to type
> questions in with.
>
> Curiously, I asked the artist if he had written the engine. He claimed
> to have, but as far as I know, he has done no AI study, and only
> started programming python some months ago.
>
> Naturally, I find it hard to believe he has picked up on natural
> language processing and the other various skills required to write AI
> engines in that time. My guess is he has a python AIML interpreter,
> and he's found a default "brain" somewhere and tweaked it with some of
> his own stuff in order to pass it off as his own.
>
> The engine could answer all the usual questions, like "what is the
> meaning of life" (42), "what is your name", "how old are you" etc etc.
> It was just a chatterbot, so ELIZA or a deriviative is marked off the
> list. I am guessing probably an ALICE engine is behind it all. Does
> anyone know any questions or commands one can issue the bot which
> might identify it? It required all questions to start with a capital
> letter, if thats any help.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Nick.
>
>From the evidence you present clearly this is a fraud. Mastery of Python in 
just a few months with no prior programming experience is definately fishy! 
And never having formerly studied AI or read the tomes of literature on the 
subject..... why oh why do we tolerate such lies and falsehoods from our 
"artists". I for one vote to repress them into just painting what the eye 
can really see ;-)'s

Originally I had planned to write a response from this point onwards about 
how simple it would be to achieve what you've described. Firstly I'd have 
mentioned that a little research would bring you to say something like 
Markov chains for emulating natural language structure (a number of the 
recent and best chatterboxes have used this technique). I'd have followed up 
with how these are crazily simple to implement in Python using just a 
dictionary and lists. And I'd have finished up by mentioning that Markov 
chains along with a lot of other statistical tools and algorithms originally 
developed outside of AI research have over time been brought into this 
field.

Then I spoke with my Girlfriend who's an artist and not an IT professional. 
Who explained about the artist showing how life is really an 
anthropormorphic projection of ourselves onto other objects. How in our 
desire to communicate intelligently we project our own intelligence into 
everyday associations. How from this we can create our own Deus ex Machina 
based merely on responses that seem natural to us but as yet we don't 
understand. But I don't believe any of that, hell she thinks clippy is cute 
:-)'s

But it explains your question fairly well. Presented with a non comp sci 
graduate doing something that appears to be the domain of a lifetimes AI 
research, you've projected your inability to do the task onto them and 
formulated the response that plagurism is at the heart of the matter. You've 
failed to see through the smoke and mirrors and spot just how easy on one 
hand Python is to learn, and just how much power on the other hand it allows 
you to lever. And you've forgotten that Google is not just an IPO its also 
your friend for research.

I wish you luck in your quest to prove this was a fraud. As for me its back 
to updating skynet 1.0 to use decorators and some new introspection tricks 
;-)'s

Anthony McDonald 




From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Thu Aug  5 16:24:19 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 05 Aug 2004 22:24:19 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
Message-ID: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no>

Now that the '-*- coding: <charset> -*-' feature has arrived,
I'd like to see an addition:

  # -*- str7bit:True -*-

  After the source file has been converted to Unicode, cause a parse
  error if a non-u'' string contains a non-7bit source character.

It can be used to ensure that the source file doesn't contain national
characters that the program will treat as characters in the current
locale's character set instead of in the source file's character set.

An environment variable or command line option to set this for all
files would also be very useful (and -*- str7bit:False -*- to override
it), so one can easily check someone else's code for trouble spots.

Possibly an s'' syntax or something would also be useful for non-
Unicode strings that intentionally contain national characters.

I dislike the '7bit' part of the name - it's misleading both because
one can get 8-bit strings e.g. with the '\x<hex>' notation (a feature,
not a bug) and because some 'valid' characters will be 8bit in
character sets like EBCDIC.  However, I can't think of a better name.

Comments?
Has it been discussed before?

-- 
Hallvard


From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Aug 10 11:20:10 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:20:10 +0200
Subject: how to dispatch objects depending on their class
References: <4118dd4a$1@maser.urz.unibas.ch>
Message-ID: <cfap3b$3ag$06$1@news.t-online.com>

Curzio Basso wrote:

> FUNC = {"<class '__main__.A'>": do_something_with_A,
>          "<class '__main__.B'>": do_something_with_B}
> 
> def func(object):
>    FUNC[type(object)](object)
 
You'll have to modify that slightly for it to work. It will be very
efficient, too.

func_dict = {A: do_something_with_A, 
             B: do_something_with_B}
def func(obj):
    func_dict[obj.__class__](obj)

Using classes as keys avoids the ambiguity you fear. The overhead will be
one dictionary lookup and a function call. The main drawback of this simple
approach is that it does not search the inheritance tree but insists on an
exact class match.

> I hope my problem is clear, and excuse me if I am asking about something
> that is common knowledge, but I don't even know what to google for...

Maybe 

python generic dispatch

Peter




From jmeile at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 28 14:08:42 2004
From: jmeile at hotmail.com (Josef Meile)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 20:08:42 +0200
Subject: Zope help system, password needed in windows
In-Reply-To: <cddf980f.0408280543.2607288b@posting.google.com>
References: <cddf980f.0408280543.2607288b@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <4130bc1e$1@pfaff2.ethz.ch>

Hi,

> Hi all, i may be flamed but did not find anything on that. I have zope
> 2.7 running on windows 98 and I really like it. Problem is when i use
> the zope help system I am asked to give a login and password to get
> access to some sections (python scripts API reference and zope API
> reference). I tried my standard admin login but hey it didn't work
> with that one. I am a python and zope nubee so i was thinking it could
> help me reading that doc. I would really appreciate it if someone
> could tell me what i missed.
It is a bug, it's already fixed on 2.7.2. On the future, you may 
subscribe to:

mail.zope.org

Then you can post your zope related questions to:
zope at zope.org

Regards,
Josef


From thomas.krueger at gmx.net  Mon Aug  9 14:07:28 2004
From: thomas.krueger at gmx.net (Thomas =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kr=FCger?=)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:07:28 +0200
Subject: Question
References: <mailman.1406.1092074658.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cf8ehd$kuk$03$1@news.t-online.com>

Dag Hansteen wrote:

>>>> s = "2+2"
>>>> answer = int(str(s))
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<pyshell#64>", line 1, in ?
>     answer = int(str(s))
> ValueError: invalid literal for int(): 2+2
> 
> How do I this ? I have a string with a such expression and I want to
> return the answer in a variable.

eval('2+2')
-> 4

Thomas



From zanesdad at bellsouth.net  Thu Aug 26 22:07:44 2004
From: zanesdad at bellsouth.net (Jeremy Jones)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:07:44 -0400
Subject: file based queues
In-Reply-To: <cglvcg$15u$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <cglvcg$15u$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <412E9770.8030402@bellsouth.net>

Eric S. Johansson wrote:

> seems to me this would be a fairly obvious component to be part of the 
> Python repertoire but I haven't found any yet.  I want to store 
> objects persistently and have the underlying object behavior be that 
> of a queue.
>
> usually, this is implemented as a series of files within a directory 
> or directory hierarchy but I'm not fussy.  Just as long as it doesn't 
> have much overhead like mysql or twisted.
>
> any suggestions?
>
> --- eric
>
Munkware.  You can pass in any pickleable object and it will persist it 
to a directory.  It's all pure Python, only a handfull of files to 
install.  If you have any questions about it (usage or whether it will 
meet your needs), feel free to email me.  Here are a couple of links:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/munkware
http://munkware.sourceforge.net/



From pellis.no.spam at tampabay.rr.com  Tue Aug  3 22:34:04 2004
From: pellis.no.spam at tampabay.rr.com (Patrick Ellis)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 02:34:04 GMT
Subject: dislin interfaced with tkinter
References: <34c9b4fa.0408030743.594417f9@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <wWXPc.32754$DZ.3338033@twister.tampabay.rr.com>

eesun wrote:
> I've downloaded the dislin package for the scientific plotting. And I
> have already created the application window with Tkinter (menu,
> canvas, status bar..). I want to integrate the Dislin plotting into
> the Tkinter application. For ex: show the dislin result on the Tkinter
> Canvas. Anyone can help?

There is a package called disipyl which provides a more object oriented
interface to dislin. It includes interfaces to wxPython and Tkinter. It
hasn't been updated in a couple of years, but dislin hasn't changed much in
that time either.

http://kim.bio.upenn.edu/~pmagwene/disipyl.html




From alanmk at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 11 11:31:05 2004
From: alanmk at hotmail.com (Alan Kennedy)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:31:05 +0100
Subject: jython and java exceptions
In-Reply-To: <cfd9ss$1g8q$1@ns.felk.cvut.cz>
References: <slrnch2dqk.1h3.gregor.jan@ins1.opera.com>
	<g74Rc.24553$Z14.7458@news.indigo.ie>
	<cfcs7u$1ajq$1@ns.felk.cvut.cz>
	<4_nSc.24773$Z14.7584@news.indigo.ie>
	<cfd9ss$1g8q$1@ns.felk.cvut.cz>
Message-ID: <WVqSc.24784$Z14.7662@news.indigo.ie>

[Jan Gregor]
 > There's result - i put aa on input to force error:

What execution environment are you running it in when you have this 
problem? A servlet container? Eclipse? From the command line?

I'm beginning to suspect some form of classloader/classpath issue.

 > Exc com.sybase.jdbc2.jdbc.SybSQLException: Stored procedure 'aa' not
 > found. Specify owner.objectname or use sp_help to check whether the
 > object exists (sp_help may produce lots of output).
 >  != subclass of java.sql.SQLException!

So your jython code finds that the exception raised does not subclass 
the base exception it is trying to catch. Which could mean that the 
definitions of the base exception class may be different between the 
code trying to catch the exception (your jython) and the code trying to 
raise it (Sybase jdbc).

Try the following experiments to see if you get behaviour that is different

1. Try this jython

import java.sql

try:
   raise java.sql.SQLWarning() # known subclass of SQLException
except java.sql.SQLException:
   print "Successfully caught"
else:
   print "Big trouble in Little China"

2. Write some similar code to the above in java, raising an SQLWarning 
when an object is created, e.g.

TestSubclassExceptions.java <---------->
import java.sql;

public TestSubclassExceptions
   {
   public TestSubclassExceptions ( )
     throws SQLWarning
     {
     throw new SQLWarning();
     }
   }
<-------------------------------------->

Making sure that the class definition is on your classpath, instantiate 
a TestSubclassExceptions object inside a jython try..catch as in #1, and 
see what happens.

3. Write a version of the above class that raises 
com.sybase.jdbc2.jdbc.SybSQLException instead. Make sure to run this one 
from the command line, so that you know that the jython classloader is 
the one loading the class and exception definitions.

If you're running inside some form of "enterprise container", you may be 
tripping over a classloader issue, where base classes/exceptions are 
being loaded by different classloaders, possibly with different security 
settings. Solving these problems is almost always a case of finding the 
right library directory to put your jython.jar, etc, in. This can 
sometimes require extensive documentation delving.

Final sanity check: are you setting the "python.home" property if/when 
you are embedding jython? There are some minor complexities associated 
with caching of "compiled" java packages. These can cause odd behaviour 
if you are executing your code from two different execution 
environments, e.g. debugging on a command line, and then also running in 
a servlet container.

If none of the above sheds any light, please post back with the details 
of the software you're using, and the locations in which you've placed 
your jython.jar, your sybase jdbc jars, etc.

 > Problem is that SybSQLException IS subclass of SQLException - verified
 > by Eclipse IDE (type hierarchy). Similar effects were with jdbc driver
 > for PostgreSQL.
 >
 > There's result:
 > Exc org.postgresql.util.PSQLException: ERROR: syntax error at or near
 > "aa"
 >  != subclass of java.sql.SQLException!

So it's definitely not a Sybase specific problem.

-- 
alan kennedy
------------------------------------------------------
email alan:              http://xhaus.com/contact/alan


From jack at performancedrivers.com  Wed Aug 18 17:10:46 2004
From: jack at performancedrivers.com (Jack Diederich)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:10:46 -0400
Subject: Embedding Python in Python
In-Reply-To: <cg0dv0$no$1@fred.mathworks.com>
References: <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
	<7xu0v0l2be.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<cg09ne$ma7$1@fred.mathworks.com>
	<7x3c2kkzn8.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<cg0bjf$78b$1@fred.mathworks.com>
	<mailman.1899.1092859599.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cg0dv0$no$1@fred.mathworks.com>
Message-ID: <20040818211046.GZ23725@performancedrivers.com>

On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 08:25:04PM +0000, JCM wrote:
> Jack Diederich <jack at performancedrivers.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 07:44:47PM +0000, JCM wrote:
> ...
> >> I don't think it's as difficult as you think.  Your snippet of code
> >> would be rejected by the rules I suggested.  You'd also want to
> >> prohibit other builtins like compile, execfile, input, reload, vars,
> >> etc.
> >> 
> > foo = "ev" + "al"
> > e = vars()['__builtins__'].__dict__[foo]
> > print e('2+2')
> 
> Also would be rejected by my original set of rules (can't use
> __dict__).  But I'd disallow vars too.

Google groups for this topic, it's been dead horse kicked.
You would have to eliminate getarr too and any C func that can
result in an infite loop.  

Not-python's-job-ly,

-Jack


From cjw at sympatico.ca  Fri Aug 27 09:17:50 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:17:50 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2469.1093550987.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.2469.1093550987.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <412F347E.4040602@sympatico.ca>



Paul Morrow wrote:
[snip]

> 
> 
> Yes, it doesn't seem all that complex, although I'm not sure that 
> everyone reading this understands them and their subtleties.  The 
> following is an excerpt from 
> http://docs.python.org/tut/node11.html#SECTION0011200000000000000000
> 
> "A namespace is a mapping from names to objects. Most namespaces are 
> currently implemented as Python dictionaries, but that's normally not 
> noticeable in any way (except for performance), and it may change in the 
> future. Examples of namespaces are: the set of built-in names (functions 
> such as abs(), and built-in exception names); the global names in a 
> module; and the local names in a function invocation. In a sense the set 
> of attributes of an object also form a namespace."
> 
> When I talk about namespaces, I include all of the above, including the 
> sense mentioned in the last line.  So an object's attributes constitute 
> a namespace too.  Therefore __doc__, being an attribute of the function 
> object, is in the function object's /namespace/.  And note that this is 
> *not* a new namespace; it's been there all along.
> 
Could you elaborate on the last sentence please?  Is the namespace not 
created when the def ... line(s) is/are executed?

Colin W.



From robin at SPAMREMOVEjessikat.fsnet.co.uk  Mon Aug  9 03:49:46 2004
From: robin at SPAMREMOVEjessikat.fsnet.co.uk (Robin Becker)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 08:49:46 +0100
Subject: how many bytes in an int
In-Reply-To: <41171116$0$8079$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
References: <9ACRc.1523$bJ2.9739@news1.mts.net>
	<4116f8ee$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<FADRc.1532$bJ2.9871@news1.mts.net>
	<41170cd1$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<41171116$0$8079$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <41172C9A.2020301@jessikat.fsnet.co.uk>

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2004-08-09, Grant Edwards <grante at visi.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>The struct module is the only thing I know about.  If you're
>>worried about the "C" types in the struct module changing
>>underneat you, you could do a pure Python implimentation of
>>"python-int" to/from DWORD. It's utterly trivial and shouldn't
>>take more than one or two lines of code.
> 
> 
> def toLittleEndianDWORD(i):
>     return ''.join(map(chr,[x&0xff for x in [i,i>>8,i>>16,i>>24]]))
> 
> def fromLittleEndianDWORD(s):
>     return ord(s[0]) + (ord(s[1])<<8) + (ord(s[2])<<16) + (ord(s[3])<<24)
> 

this simple code will give warnings in 2.3, I think struct is really needed.

 >>> toLittleEndianDWORD(-1)
'\xff\xff\xff\xff'
 >>> fromLittleEndianDWORD(toLittleEndianDWORD(-1))
__main__:2: FutureWarning: x<<y losing bits or changing sign will return 
a long in Python 2.4 and up
-1
 >>>
-- 
Robin Becker


From pwilkinson at videotron.ca  Fri Aug  6 15:35:31 2004
From: pwilkinson at videotron.ca (Peter Wilkinson)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 15:35:31 -0400
Subject: unicode to ascii converting
In-Reply-To: <s9z8ycs9l07.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>
References: <mailman.1296.1091813051.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1091815856.527127@news.commspeed.net>
	<mailman.1301.1091816463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<s9z8ycs9l07.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040806152230.01b92c08@pop.videotron.ca>

Well this is interestingly annoying:

u"?".encode("ascii", "ignore") ->  ''    # works just fine but as I have 
written

aa = "?"
aa.encode("ascii","ignore") ->

Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<interactive input>", line 1, in ?
UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xe4 in position 0: 
ordinal not in range(128)

So I am guessing that I don't understand something about the syntax

Peter

At 02:31 PM 8/6/2004, Bernhard Herzog wrote:
>Peter Wilkinson <pwilkinson at videotron.ca> writes:
>
> > It would be good to find out _why_ this happens in the first place. I
> > will keep do a little searching on this for a few days.
>
>Most likely because you have characters in that file that are not in the
>ASCII character set. ASCII is after all only a very small subset of
>unicode.  E.g.
>
> >>> u"?".encode("ascii")
>Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
>UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xe4' in 
>position 0: ordinal not in range(128)
>
>
>If it's OK to lose information, you could use the error argument to
>.encode like
>
> >>> u"?".encode("ascii", "ignore")
>''
>
>or
>
> >>> u"?".encode("ascii", "replace")
>'?'
>
>
>    Bernhard
>
>--
>Intevation GmbH                                 http://intevation.de/
>Skencil                                http://sketch.sourceforge.net/
>Thuban                                  http://thuban.intevation.org/
>--
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



From FBatista at uniFON.com.ar  Mon Aug 30 13:19:07 2004
From: FBatista at uniFON.com.ar (Batista, Facundo)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:19:07 -0300
Subject: about presicion
Message-ID: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C78A3@escpl.tcp.com.ar>


#- > > >> The decimal module comes with python 2.4? I have 2.3, :(, what
#- do I do?

I missed this mail, so I answer it now.

If you want to use the decimal module with Py2.3, just download it from CVS
(from http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/python/python/dist/src/Lib/) and
use it.

.	Facundo
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From davidf at sjsoft.com  Thu Aug 19 05:13:22 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:13:22 +0200
Subject: decorators and multimethods
In-Reply-To: <4edc17eb.0408070742.664fa9c0@posting.google.com>
References: <4edc17eb.0408062340.71ab270f@posting.google.com>
	<4edc17eb.0408070742.664fa9c0@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cg1qvi$7e2$2@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

Michele Simionato wrote:
> michele.simionato at gmail.com (Michele Simionato) wrote in message news:<4edc17eb.0408062340.71ab270f at posting.google.com>...
> 
> <snip using decorators as syntactic sugar over Howard Stearns module>
> 
> Martin v. Lewis suggested an improvement, which involves adding the 
> following method to the Generic_Function class:
> 
>     def addmethod(self, *types):
>         "My own tiny modification to Stearns code"
>         return lambda f: self.setdefault(types,f)
> 
> The advantage is that methods definitions can go in any scope now and
> not only at the top level as in my original hack.
> My previous example read:
> 
> foo = Generic_Function()
> 
> @foo.addmethod(object, object, object)
> def _(call_next, x, y, z):
>    return 'default'
> 
> @foo.addmethod(int, int, int)
> def _(call_next, x, y, z):
>    return 'all ints , ' + call_next(x, y, z)
> 
> @foo.addmethod(object, object)
> def _(call_next, x, y):
>    return 'just two'
> 
> where I use "_" as a poor man anonymous function. I cannot reuse the name
> "foo" now, since
> 
> @foo.addmethod(...)
> def foo(..):
>  ....
> 
> is really converted to
> 
> def foo(..)
>  ...
> 
> foo=foo.addmethod(...)(foo)
> 
> and this would correctly raise a "foo function has not attribute addmethod"!
> But in some sense this is better, since we avoid any confusion
> between the member functions and the generic function (which is implemented
> as a dictionary, BTW).

Another benefit is you can give the different variants real names:

@foo.addmethod(object, object):
def add_objects(call_next, x, y):
   return 'just two'

so you can call it directly if you want

David


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Thu Aug 19 10:10:41 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:10:41 GMT
Subject: [Python-Dev] PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
References: <200408190455.i7J4t6CN025433@cosc353.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz>
	<mailman.1928.1092895080.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Bx2Vc.9155$xi6.5671@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"Andrew Durdin" <adurdin at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1928.1092895080.5135.python-list at python.org...
> On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:55:06 +1200, Greg Ewing
> <greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> > Guido:
> >
> > > Is anybody seriously trying to come up with a single alternative
> > > decorator proposal that most folks "out there" can support, to be
> > > presented to me (with implementation, please!) in time for 2.4b1?
> >
> > >From the posts I've seen here, the only alternatives that have
> > considerable popular support are ones that you've already rejected. So
> > I suspect nobody really feels it's worth trying.
>
> To expand on that just a bit: the two alternatives that were most
> generally favoured (in Doug Holton's estimate) were the
> "list-after-def" (C1 in the wiki), and the "pie decorator at top of
> function body" (E1 in the wiki), both of which Guido rejected.
> In the poll that Doug ran, E1 had a slight margin over C1:
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2004-August/233479.html
>
> However, C1 has an implementation, while E1 doesn't. (Aside: how
> difficult would it be to create an implementation of E1?)

There is an implementation of J2, to which I have converted from C1, given
GvR's predisposition for some sort of prefix form.  (J2 was not represented
in the poll.)  J2 uses a new keyword (decorate) to mark a block of 1 or more
decorator methods as a prefix to the "def fn(args):" line.  No offensive @,
and fairly pleasant to read!

-- Paul




From qual at tiscali.de  Fri Aug 13 16:32:39 2004
From: qual at tiscali.de (Uwe Hoffmann)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 22:32:39 +0200
Subject: DIME Attachments
In-Reply-To: <b190a0ac.0408130913.281ca4ef@posting.google.com>
References: <b190a0ac.0408130913.281ca4ef@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfj8h7$q4i$1@ulysses.news.tiscali.de>

Chris C wrote:
> I've been looking all around for any libraries or code for parsing
> dime attachments from Microsoft .NET Web Services.
> 
just remembered this link
http://agora.cubik.org/wiki/view/Main/DIME


From noone at here.com  Wed Aug 25 10:00:11 2004
From: noone at here.com (M. Clift)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:00:11 +0100
Subject: Just a quick one
References: <cgi2qq$rvp$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <cgi3ev$g6k$1@online.de>
Message-ID: <cgi5vc$m52$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>

Hi Benjamin,

Sorry, another question. How do I remove the brackets form the list?
Name_List.remove('(') doesn't work.

Thanks,

M




From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 12:49:23 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:49:23 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E14@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <loom.20040820T184344-922@post.gmane.org>

Robert Brewer <fumanchu <at> amor.org> writes:
> To Paul, M. Sparks, et al: Since J2 is coming up frequently (and Guido
> did not immediately reject it when asked), I'm going to follow through
> and try to write a proposal this weekend for J2. I'll post it here for
> feedback (and of course, wait for the 'final' count of votes) before
> posting it on py-dev.

This is great!  Thanks so much!

I wanted to say that despite my hesitations about voting, I think this voting 
thread has been a pretty helpful way to focus our discussions.  It does look 
like J2 is generally the preferred syntax so far (with the C syntaxes coming 
in second).  I hope this is an opportunity for us all to come together to 
support a single proposal since this is the only way GvR will really consider 
our suggestions.  I know that J2 is not everyone's favorite, but I'm hoping 
that we can agree that, even if it's not our favorite, is a clear improvement 
over @pie syntax.

Thanks everyone for all your work and discussions!

Steve




From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 30 04:07:40 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:07:40 +0200
Subject: Generator expressions v/s list comprehensions
References: <mahesh-525B07.12195528082004@individual.net>
	<1gj8y77.6qshr41q531veN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<mahesh-7E265C.14093428082004@individual.net>
	<87llfywooz.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<mahesh-F76AD6.17094429082004@individual.net>
Message-ID: <1gjbs1e.assxlxlud1m0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Mahesh Padmanabhan <mahesh at privacy.net> wrote:

> In article <87llfywooz.fsf at sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>,
>  Isaac To <iketo2 at netscape.net> wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Thanks Isaac for providing such a detailed explanation. I understand now
> why generator expressions make more sense. 
> 
> I just wish that generator expressions had been designed into the 
> language without going the way of list comprehension -> generator 
> expressions.

It would sure be nice if Python had been born back from day one with all
the neat features it has taken years to develop -- that way we wouldn't
have any issues that are there just because of backwards compatibility.

Unfortunately, this wish is totally unrealistic -- obviously people do
come up with cool ideas such as the iterator protocol, and generators,
after the language has been around for a while.  When list
comprehensions got into Python the new iterator protocol wasn't there
yet, so of course generator comprehensions could not have been thought
of.  Similarly, dicts now have both (e.g.) a method .items() which
returns a list, and a method .iteritems() which returns an iterator --
no special reason for both to be there, but the former was there first,
before the iterator protocol, so it must stay for backwards
compatibility.  One day (Python 3.0) we'll be able to break
compatibility and simplify things, but that sort of thing can be allowed
only very rarely in a language's continuing evolution.


Alex


From alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 30 13:31:14 2004
From: alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 10:31:14 -0700
Subject: about presicion
References: <8f17f4bc.0408261434.1a73e874@posting.google.com>
	<2e363c08.0408261912.2358a016@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.2518.1093611862.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<8f17f4bc.0408281303.3cfb4199@posting.google.com>
	<JN6dnW6HuNiU06zcRVn-pA@powergate.ca>
	<20040829041630.28913.00001771@mb-m26.aol.com>
	<8f17f4bc.0408291552.67e3553e@posting.google.com>
	<1gjc18t.1hj0z071lwprfjN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8f17f4bc.0408300931.7223af16@posting.google.com>

aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) wrote in message news:<1gjc18t.1hj0z071lwprfjN%aleaxit at yahoo.com>...
> Ali <alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > So the decimal module is in 2.4 but not 2.3? Also I am not geting the
> > 2.4 version because it seems that it is still in alpha.
> 
> You _SHOULD_ get the 2.4 alpha, and try it out -- that's why alphas get
> released, after all!  How's the final release going to be perfect unless
> people DO get and try the alphas?!
> 
> But you shouldn't yet use 2.4 for production work (stuff you ship to
> customers, etc).
> 
> The Decimal module is in the standard library in 2.4, but Decimal itself
> can support 2.3 just fine -- just download and install it.
> 
> 
> Alex

ok but where can i download deciaml? waht about gmpy? which is better?


From ivoras at __geri.cc.fer.hr  Thu Aug  5 17:32:04 2004
From: ivoras at __geri.cc.fer.hr (Ivan Voras)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 23:32:04 +0200
Subject: psyco out of memory
In-Reply-To: <cetpoc$udc$1@bagan.srce.hr>
References: <cetpoc$udc$1@bagan.srce.hr>
Message-ID: <ceu91j$a5s$1@bagan.srce.hr>

Ivan Voras wrote:

> (I'm running python 2.3.4 on FreeBSD 5)

Hmph. I tried on WinXP and it works. Maybe it's a platform-specific bug.

(Still, I'm surprised how slow it is. The same "program" in Java takes 
about 10sec, and here it's passed 5 minutes and I'm still waiting...)

-- 
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nath Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't
you understand?


From cjw at sympatico.ca  Sat Aug 21 08:12:38 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 08:12:38 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
In-Reply-To: <b68d2f19.0408200948.4939073@posting.google.com>
References: <mailman.1991.1092960665.5135.python-list@python.org>	<roy-4FE900.21540719082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.2020.1092995114.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b68d2f19.0408200948.4939073@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <T_GVc.38427$Tr.1922225@news20.bellglobal.com>



Neil Zanella wrote:
> Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.2020.1092995114.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> 
>>Roy Smith wrote:
>>
>>>I never quite understood the point of static methods inside classes.  
>>>When would you ever need to do that, as opposed to just a function in a 
>>>module?  In Java's "everything is part of a class" philosophy, it makes 
>>>sense, but in Python?
>>
>>It gives us another means of managing namespaces.  Rather than having to 
>>create a top-level function in the current (or some other) module, we 
>>can group it with other related functions as a method in a class.
> 
> 
> This is one reason for using staticmethod. However, as I pointed out, there
> is another even better reason. It allows you to use the polymorphism feature
> (as in C++ virtual functions) on class objects without having to create class
> instances (as would be necessary in C++). For instance, you can have a
> superclass with 20 staticmethods with default behavior, and 40 subclasses
> each ovrriding 5 of these staticmethods on average and using the default
> for the rest.
> 
> To summarize, here are the two reasons to use staticmethod:
> 
> 1. You want to group a bunch of functions together. However, as it happens
>    such functions are not useful outside of a given class, so you use
>    staticmethod to place them where they belong. Perhaps you do not
>    have enough such functions to warrant their placement inside a
>    module of its own.
> 
Surely, the price of this is the added complexity in addressing the 
static method?

Suppose we have a module shape and within it a class Shape.  Now suppose 
we wish to create some instances of Shape which have no special nethods, 
but which each has its own constructor.

One could use a function with shape or a static method within Shape.

We would address the function, from another module as shape.special and 
address the static method as shape.Shape.special.

What have we gained from this added complexity?  Perhaps we have reduced 
the pollution of the space namespace. Is that sufficient justifiction?

Colin W.

> 2. You need to use inheritance and polymorphism but you don't need instances,
>    or perhaps you simply need instance independent polymorphism at the class
>    level.
> 
> Now if anyone wishes to add to the list, you're more than welcome.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Neil



From skip at pobox.com  Fri Aug  6 17:04:25 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 16:04:25 -0500
Subject: bsddb port
In-Reply-To: <41116E16.7000100@mail.usyd.edu.au>
References: <41116E16.7000100@mail.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <16659.62041.92466.696771@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Ajay> does anyone know of a bsddb port to pocket pc 2002.

Silence should be deemed a negative answer.  I know of none, but have to
wonder if Berkeley DB itself runs on a pocket pc.  If you're able to build
extension modules for that device can you give it a whirl and submit a bug
report to SourceForge identifying the problems?

Skip




From grepninja at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 25 16:12:48 2004
From: grepninja at yahoo.com (John Tobler)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 13:12:48 -0700
Subject: Has anyone implemented BASIC in Python?
References: <2oo13eFcj548U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<o6eii0h19pljd16shbfld7jdj7l2m7tc9m@4ax.com>
	<2ot30hFeek8nU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<9h0ji0lvc0be65nuvcugaa3vsq5mcl3ck8@4ax.com>
	<2otkvkFe7p8oU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <e6476307.0408251212.fead626@posting.google.com>

Leif K-Brooks <eurleif at ecritters.biz> wrote in message news:<2otkvkFe7p8oU1 at uni-berlin.de>...
> Is there a (virtual) book you would recommend reading to learn about 
> writing them? A course isn't really possibly for me, so I'm hoping that 
> isn't the only option.

Hmmmm, also check out the Compiler Design and Construction section at
http://www.tcfb.com/freetechbooks/bookcp.html.

Enjoy!

John Tobler
CSharpener's Weblog:
  http://weblogs.asp.net/jtobler/


From eq at eq.homelinux.org  Thu Aug 19 16:32:15 2004
From: eq at eq.homelinux.org (eq)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:32:15 +0200
Subject: problem using C-bindings
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.19.20.32.09.806717@eq.homelinux.org>

Hi,

I'm trying to create a program(written in C) that does the following
things using embedded Python:
1. Create a module(say, "MyModule")
2. Create a class in that module(say, "MyClass")
3. Create a function in that module(say, "MyFunction")

The Python-code would look like this:
MyClass.py:

class MyClass:
	def MyFunction(self):
		print 'Hello'

My C-application can do all the steps except the last one.
myapp.c:

#include <Python.h>

static PyMethodDef ModuleMethods[] = { {NULL} };

void attachFunc(PyObject* class,PyObject* dict,char* func_code,char* name)
{
	PyObject* pyfunc_code;
	PyObject* pyfunc;
	pyfunc_code=Py_CompileString(func_code,"",Py_file_input);
	pyfunc=PyFunction_New(pyfunc_code,dict);
	PyObject_SetAttrString(class,name,pyfunc);
}

int main(int argc,char** argv)
{
	Py_SetProgramName(argv[0]);
	Py_Initialize();
	PyObject* module;
	PyObject* module_dict;
	PyObject* class;
	PyObject* class_dict;
	PyObject* class_name;
	
	module=Py_InitModule("MyModule",ModuleMethods);
	module_dict=PyModule_GetDict(module);
	class_dict=PyDict_New();
	class_name=PyString_FromString("MyClass");
	class=PyClass_New(NULL,class_dict,class_name);
	PyDict_SetItemString(module_dict,"MyClass",class);
	
	attachFunc(class,module_dict,"print 'hello'\n","MyFunction");
	
	PyRun_SimpleString("import MyModule\n");
	PyRun_SimpleString("t=MyModule.MyClass()\n");
	PyRun_SimpleString("t.MyFunction()\n");
	return 0;
}

When executing the application, I get the following(because of the
"t.MyFunction()") Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<string>", line 1, in ?
TypeError: ?() takes no arguments (1 given)

What am I doing wrong?

Greetings,
Henning


From ben at benlast.com  Sat Aug 21 05:42:23 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:42:23 +0100
Subject: My only complaint about Python
In-Reply-To: <874qmxj81k.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPMEMNCEAA.ben@benlast.com>

> From: 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de
> no cost is not the same as free
> Klaus Schilling

I really shouldn't, but... Klaus, it *is* the same, for one of the two
perfectly good definitions of the word "free" in the English language.

Actually, I regards gcc as equivalent to the free VC++ in *some* respects
(waits for the gasp of horror to die away).  If I need a compiler for
something, I'll be looking to download one.  If there's a problem with it,
then frankly it makes no odds to me whether I have the source code or not -
for all practical purposes I am *not* going to start hacking around with the
compiler source to fix problems.  It's not a task for which I have either
enthusiasm or time (and seeing how long it is since I was involved in
anything that low-level in C, I probably don't have the skills any more).

What's needed (in my extremely humble opinion) is a way to build what I need
to, using a compiler suite that I can go and get without having to spend any
money.  Philosophy is fine, but I dislike having an FSF agenda pushed on me
as much as I dislike a Redmond agenda.  I just want to get on with my job
(or in this case, pursue my own interests).

Anyway, having said all that, and in a vain attempt to drag this topic back
to something more directly Pythonic: something that I have always admired
about the Python "community" (or approach) is that those of us who, for one
reason or another, use Windows have access to pretty much the same suites of
tools and addons as those who use Unix.  Zealotry and prejudice against
people on the basis of their operating system choice is not a pretty sight,
and I appreciate the general lack of it amongst Pythonistas.

Now I shall put on my tin hat and hide. :)

b



From jjl at pobox.com  Thu Aug 26 15:06:40 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 20:06:40 +0100
Subject: waiting for html to load:  a followup
References: <mAoXc.19$HM.4573@news.uswest.net>
Message-ID: <wtzlen27.fsf@pobox.com>

Josh <joshl at commenspace.org> writes:
[...]
> Anyway, I decided to forget IE and I am now trying to use urllib2 to
> open up the page, read it, etc.  My problem is the page has a built-in
> refresh and I don't know how to have python re-read the page until
> it's ready to hand over the links.

ClientCookie does that (HTTPRefreshProcessor and HTTPEquivProcessor in
particular).

http://wwwsearch.sf.net/ClientCookie


I recommend using the alpha release.  The interface will change a
little soon, but you almost certainly won't notice.


> An example of the page is:
> http://edcw2ks23.cr.usgs.gov/Website/zipship/waiting.jsp?areaList=49.0,47.0,-122.0,-124.08&prodList=NED,
> 
> I believe I need to read the header, grab the cookie session id, and
> add it back to the header.  I can do all thus, but I'm stuck on

It'll do the cookies too :-)

[...]
> probably very simple syntax to re-read the page rather than open a new
> connection, if that makes sense (I'm new to http as well as python).

You don't need to ensure it's the same connection.  In fact, you can't
easily do that with urllib2 (or ClientCookie) as it is currently.

HTH


John


From kamikaze at kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu  Thu Aug  5 16:31:00 2004
From: kamikaze at kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes)
Date: 5 Aug 2004 20:31:00 GMT
Subject: Decorator syntax
References: <mailman.1173.1091670172.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnch5684.15vo.kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu>

C. Barnes <connellybarnes at yahoo.com>
wrote on Wed, 4 Aug 2004 18:42:48 -0700 (PDT):
> I vote for
> def f(): [synchronized, classmethod]
>   (body of function)

  That syntax looks plausible in toy examples, but is terrible for a
more typical invocation, like:

class foo:
    def introduceNewFeature(self, someArgument, anotherArgument): [synchronized, types="o,i,i"]
        pass # whatever

> This is backwards compatible (Python <= 2.3 raise
> SyntaxError),

  That's not what "backwards compatible" means, but @-syntax also raises
a syntax error in older versions, which is just what you'd expect.

> and looks much nicer than @.

  I fail to see how that's more attractive than:

class foo:
    @synchronized
    @types("o,i,i")
    def introduceNewFeature(self, someArgument, anotherArgument):
        pass # whatever

  I'm +1 for the @-syntax.

1) It doesn't cause needless line-wrap.
2) It causes the minimum amount of confusion, because it doesn't
   overload an existing symbol.  [] and {} and () are already pushed to
   their limits and beyond in Python.  Give them a day off for once.
3) A large proportion of Python programmers are also Java programmers,
   and won't object to the @-syntax.

> The only problem is that you can't one-line a
> decorated function.  You can't do that with
> the @ notation either, so it's not a big deal.

  One-liners are of negative value to a language, anyway, as they
encourage bad habits.  That way lies Perl and other juvenile
entertainments.

-- 
 <a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"Virtues foster one another; so too, vices.
 Bad English kills trees, consumes energy, and befouls the Earth.
 Good English renews it." -The Underground Grammarian, v1n2


From nomail at nospam.no  Sun Aug 15 02:45:41 2004
From: nomail at nospam.no (Dominic)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 08:45:41 +0200
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
In-Reply-To: <972ec5bd.0408141032.385fe115@posting.google.com>
References: <972ec5bd.0408141032.385fe115@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfn0oa$112$1@news.uni-kl.de>

> values. I am currently writing a real time strategy game where I have
I have written a simple 2D-real-time vehicle simulator in Python
   (+ graphics library Allegro), using chained generators
which works well enough.

If your game is more ambitious, spend some time designing
  a good architecture and specify your components' interfaces.
Then you could generate your code-skeleton from that;
simple generators should be sufficient to implement
your methods which are then driven by your architectures
"execution model".

ciao,
  Dominic


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 07:05:46 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 21:05:46 +1000
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>
	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082604056ec45a47@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:28:14 +0200, Paolo Veronelli
<paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it> wrote:
> It's not the ideas complexity that fears,but the feeling we are trying
> to bring down to earth the supposed magic of some language solutions.
> There is nothing good in magic,specially when you have to build robust
> things on it.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that the
approach of double-under variables inside a function having some new
meaning, getting put into a new scope that did not previously exist,
is somehow _less_ magical that the syntactic sugar of decorators? If
so, how do you intend to handle the backwards compatibility issue,
where code that works on Python2.4 will do something entirely
different on Python2.3 (the double-under variables will be silently
ignored). Do you intend that the double-under names would also be
looked for in the same scopes? That is, what will this code do?

def foo():
    __name__ = '%s_banana'%(__name__) 

> If this blows away clouds on the language future and bring back the
> useful features in a wider theory where metaclasses and decorators are
> members of,this shouldn't be considered a hack.If it becomes a hack the
> problem is to be searched and solved above generalizing the scope system.

Hand waving is all well and good, but this isn't a matter of
"generalizing the scope system". This is a _radical_ change to the
scoping rules of Python, and I think it's safe to say that there's
*absolutely* *no* *way* something like this would be considered,
without an excellent reason - and bolting some sort of strange
decorator semantics doesn't cut it.

Anthony


From adeger at netlibrary.com  Tue Aug  3 15:51:32 2004
From: adeger at netlibrary.com (adeger)
Date: 3 Aug 2004 12:51:32 -0700
Subject: simple Thread question
Message-ID: <b8001e9f.0408031151.4f617c6@posting.google.com>

Having trouble with my first forays into threads.  Basically, the
threads don't seem to be working in parallel (or you might say are
blocking).  I've boiled my problems to the following short code block
and ensuing output.  Seems like the output should be all interleaved
and of course it's not.  Running Python 2.2 from ActiveState on
Windows XP (also doesn't work on Windows 2000).

Thanks in advance!
adeger

#====================================================

import threading

class TestThr(threading.Thread):
	def __init__(self):
		threading.Thread.__init__(self)

	def run(self, name):
		import time
		for i in range(1,11):
			print 'thread ', name, ' instance ', str(i)
			time.sleep(1)

threads = []
for inst in ('a', 'b', 'c'):
	thread = TestThr()
	thread.run(inst)
	threads.append(thread)

# output below
thread  a  instance  1
thread  a  instance  2
thread  a  instance  3
thread  a  instance  4
thread  a  instance  5
thread  a  instance  6
thread  a  instance  7
thread  a  instance  8
thread  a  instance  9
thread  a  instance  10
thread  b  instance  1
thread  b  instance  2
thread  b  instance  3
thread  b  instance  4
thread  b  instance  5
thread  b  instance  6
thread  b  instance  7
thread  b  instance  8
thread  b  instance  9
thread  b  instance  10
thread  c  instance  1
thread  c  instance  2
thread  c  instance  3
thread  c  instance  4
thread  c  instance  5
thread  c  instance  6
thread  c  instance  7
thread  c  instance  8
thread  c  instance  9
thread  c  instance  10


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 23:54:37 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:54:37 +1000
Subject: mixing statements into J2
In-Reply-To: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E85@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E85@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408262054367ebbea@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:36:08 -0700, Robert Brewer <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote:
> > > The order of operation would have to be reversed,
> >
> > I don't see why.
> 
> It's not a requirement, but it seems reasonable to me. If you're going
> to set off a decorator suite and then mix in normal Python statements,
> the two models collide over order of operation:
> 
> using:
>     if test:
>         memoize
>     else:
>         synchronize
>     classmethod
> def foo(self, *args):
>     stuff(args)

Ah - see, you've _also_ included statements in the decorator block.
This is not going to be allowed - the decorators _must_ be
expressions. This example code is actually a pretty strong "anti"
point for J2 that I hadn't been able to quite articulate before - it
_looks_ like a normal block, but it isn't. Only expressions can be in
it.
The above _should_ generate a SyntaxError on the 'if'.


From tmj at jarmania.com  Thu Aug 12 14:31:00 2004
From: tmj at jarmania.com (Tim Jarman)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:31:00 +0100
Subject: Keyword substitution in string
In-Reply-To: <I2CH9G.I09@news.muni.cz>
References: <I2CH9G.I09@news.muni.cz>
Message-ID: <C2BB3B5F-EC8D-11D8-9576-000D9366BF6A@jarmania.com>


On 12 Aug 2004, at 18:43, Ondrej Krajicek wrote:

>
> Hello,
>
> in my application, I want to do keyword substituion in
> a string from a dictionary. The problem is indeed
> easy to solve, but seems quite common to me, so I wonder
> wheter there is already a function in Python which
> does just that.
>
> I want to substitute values for keywords in strings,
> the keywords and values are stored in a dictionary.
>
> Something like this:
>
> def subst(string, dict):
> 	...
>
> where:
>
> subst('Hello, <key1> <key2>!', {'key1': 'Python', 'key2': 'rules' })
>
> gives:
>
> 'Hello, Python rules!'
>
> The keyword quoting style does not matter.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ondra

Yes - so common they already thought of it! See Library Reference 
2.3.6.1 or here: http://docs.python.org/lib/typesseq-strings.html for 
an example of exactly what you want.

HTH

Tim J



From martin at v.loewis.de  Tue Aug  3 12:09:09 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 18:09:09 +0200
Subject: Codecs for ISO 8859-11 (Thai) and 8859-16 (Romanian)
In-Reply-To: <efabc1be.0408020219.11dcf0d7@posting.google.com>
References: <efabc1be.0407270310.40dbd80@posting.google.com>
	<biteg0dko3sbp7el7etlhtm7djonnf7etq@4ax.com>
	<efabc1be.0407311057.68cdbc29@posting.google.com>
	<410c2827$0$24830$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<efabc1be.0408010830.2128cf68@posting.google.com>
	<410D7AB5.9040100@v.loewis.de>
	<efabc1be.0408020219.11dcf0d7@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <410FB8A5.6030701@v.loewis.de>

Peter Jacobi wrote:
> a) ISO 8859-n vs ISO-8859-n
> If the information at 
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8859-1#ISO_8859-1_vs_ISO-8859-1 
> is correct, Python 8859-n 
> codecs do implement the ISO standard charsets ISO 8859-n 
> in the specialized IANA forms ISO-8859-n (and in agreement 
> with the Unicode mapping files). So any difficult C0/C1 
> wording in the original ISO standard can be disregarded.

I have just asked Markus Kuhn about this, who has registered
ISO-8859-16 with IANA. He believes that his registration does
not include control characters (neither C0 nor C1), just as
the ISO standard does not contain any. Wrt. RFC 1345 he points
out that this is not an Internet Standard, but a private
collection of Keld Simonsen, i.e. it is not binding.

Regards,
Martin


From fakeaddress at nowhere.org  Mon Aug  9 23:58:13 2004
From: fakeaddress at nowhere.org (Bryan Olson)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 03:58:13 GMT
Subject: Fixing socket.makefile()
Message-ID: <pJXRc.2959$5j7.2643@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>


Here's the problem: Suppose we use:

     import socket
     [...]
     f = some_socket.makefile()

Then:

     f.read() is efficient, but verbose, and incorrect (or at
     least does not play will with others);

     f.readline() is correct, but verbose and inefficient.

To justify the "verbose" part, just look at the code in the
Python library's socket.py.  Below, I'll explain playing well
with others, and then (in)efficiency.

Consider the operations:

     f = some_socket.makefile()
     ch = f.read(1)
     print "The first char is", ch
     ch = some_socket.recv(1)
     print "The second char is", ch

The code above does *not* (usually) print the first and second
characters from the socket.

The problem is that makefile() returns a Python object that has
its own local buffer.  The recv() call reads directly from the
socket, oblivious to any data queued in the file object's
buffer.  The problem is not limited to recv(); select(), and
perhaps other calls, will ignore the buffer and look directly at
the socket.  Output buffering appears to have a similar problem.

Now look up socket.makefile().readline().  It gets one byte at a
time. It will get the byte from the Python buffer if the buffer
is non-empty, otherwise it will try to recv() one byte at a
time, directly from the socket.  By itself, readline() never
over-reads the socket; if select() and recv() would work
correctly before the readline(), they'll work after.  While
correct, reading one byte at a time is painfully slow.

The Python Library Reference is silent on whether the
socket.makefile operations  are supposed to interact correctly
with the direct socket operations.  If they are supposed to play
well together, then read() is wrong.  If they are not, then
readline() is absurdly slow.

Enough of my whining.  The good news is that we can have both
efficiency and correctness, and we can fix the bloat at the same
time.  Operating systems already do efficient buffering for
sockets.  That efficiency varies, but any smart operating system
copies buffers to user-space in large chunks, and answers
recv()'s from the buffers without system calls, when possible.
Python's socket module now supports MSG_PEEK, which enables
Python code to examine a socket's native buffer.

Below my sig, I show code to replace the corresponding member
functions in the class socket._fileobject.  The updated version
passes the tests in test_socket.py.

Make sense?  Worth doing?  I thought I'd talk it up here before
jumping into the devel list.


-- 
--Bryan



# class _fileobject(object):

     def __init__(self, sock, mode='rb', bufsize=-1):
         self._sock = sock
         if bufsize <= 0:
             bufsize = self.default_bufsize
         self.bufsize = bufsize
         self.softspace = False

     def read(self, size=-1):
         if size <= 0:
             size = sys.maxint
         blocks = []
         while size > 0:
             b = self._sock.recv(min(size, self.bufsize))
             size -= len(b)
             if not b:
                 break
             blocks.append(b)
         return "".join(blocks)

     def readline(self, size=-1):
         if size < 0:
             size = sys.maxint
         blocks = []
         read_size = min(20, size)
         found = 0
         while size and not found:
             b = self._sock.recv(read_size, MSG_PEEK)
             if not b:
                 break
             found = b.find('\n') + 1
             length = found or len(b)
             size -= length
             blocks.append(self._sock.recv(length))
             read_size = min(read_size * 2, size, self.bufsize)
         return "".join(blocks)

     def write(self, data):
         self._sock.sendall(str(data))

     def writelines(self, lines):
         #  This version mimics the current writelines, which calls
         #  str() on each line, but comments that we should reject
         #  non-string non-buffers.  Let's omit the next line.
         lines = [str(s) for s in lines]
         self._sock.sendall(''.join(lines))

     def flush(self):
         pass



From http  Sat Aug 28 04:21:29 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 01:21:29 -0700
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xzn4gwgea.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7a1o.1a5d2q410jsn2kN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xisb4xnh5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7c1a.tfdm14p3hclcN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xd61benm9.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj82n3.1ylkr3nierngmN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7x4qmnvgcu.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <7xvff3u0za.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> writes:
> > Side question, does module zipfile already have the code to allow
> > reading such signed files?  
> 
> I think jar files are just zip files containing an extra file (called
> "manifest") that has signatures in it.  So you can import from a jar
> as if it were a zip.

But to add to that, if module zipfile is going to eventually expect
jar files to be signed, the first patch needed is that if it doesn't
have code to actually check the signatures, it should refuse to load
jar files.

I guess I better check into what Java does about this.  It's been a
while since I've used Java, but I seem to remember that signing is not
mandatory.  


From anthonybol2 at netscape.net  Fri Aug 13 23:40:03 2004
From: anthonybol2 at netscape.net (TonyB)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 20:40:03 -0700
Subject: Seperating CSV rows into new, seperate files
Message-ID: <d28d42ec.0408131940.3b95e9bd@posting.google.com>

Hi,
I've searched the group and need more information and guidance on this
issue I need to resolve next week. I work for the local school system
and I am working on a way to parse a CSV file of class lists from MS
Excel.  It is a ~2MB file with all teachers and all their classes in
it.  I thought I would use Python to do this since many people I know
tell me how great it is.  The real sticking point is there are
duplicates of each teacher's classes embedded in the file (don't ask
why).  I want to break up the source file into the seperate class
files without duplication and use the teachers name, coursecode and
section in the filename.

Example Data:
Last Name	First Name	Grade	Period	Teacher Name	
SMITH           JOHN	         8      1	JONES	SALLY

Student ID		Course Code	Course Title	
12345678	        1234	         ALGEBRA I

Course Section	Session
1	        0


The course code and section number are the same in the duplicate
classes.  The difference is that the session number changes.   I'm
thinking that I will need to somehow iterate through the lines and
break the class when the course code changes and/or section change
(course codes can be the same but section numbers change with each
class).  Then I have to monitor the session number to see if there is
a duplicate course code and section but a different session number
would indicate that the class is a duplicate. Essentially, the session
number will be 0, 1, or 2 for a total of three lists of the same
class. Hopefully that makes sense.  Again don't ask why the data is
like this.

My humble attempts have not been very successful.  I've been trying
the csv modules to read the file but I am not sure how to procede
after that.

Any guidance is greatly appreciated.


From arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE  Mon Aug 23 13:19:15 2004
From: arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE (Arien Malec)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:19:15 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WE
	DONE?
References: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Xns954E696D4D95Darienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.29>

"Paul McGuire" <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> wrote in
news:pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720 at fe1.texas.rr.com: 

> Please start giving some thought to what the 'decorate' keyword should
> be. If we can get/keep this selection to a manageable list, then we
> should have another multivote some time next week.

"transform:"

In general:

Something that is either semantic neutral, or makes semantics explicit.

Arien


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Mon Aug 16 10:39:29 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:39:29 -0400
Subject: NumArray array-indexing
In-Reply-To: <a56f3aa5.0408152305.54d3ceee@posting.google.com>
References: <a56f3aa5.0408120958.5e9db50d@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121433170.9323-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121444370.9594-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<a56f3aa5.0408152305.54d3ceee@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408160940470.8576-100000@ccc3.wpi.edu>

On 16 Aug 2004, Michael Drumheller wrote:

> However, whereas [1, 2, 3] passed as an index-array will get you the
> second, third, and fourth rows of a rank-2 matrix, [[1,2,3]] will *not*
> do that.  (It gets you some other weird thing that I can't remember.)
> That is, a single-row matrix may be the same thing as a row vector
> in a mathematical context, but it is not the same thing in an
> array-indexing context.  Similarly, passing [[1],
>                                              [2],
>                                              [3]]
> as an index array doesn't get you anything remotely like the second
> third, and fourth columns.  So it seems to me that array indexing
> can easily get you an arbitrary subset of rows, but not an arbitrary
> subset of columns.  Would you agree?

Forgive the poor flow of the following; I've rewritten it a couple of 
times.

Think about what you're trying to do for a second.  You want to pass a
list of indices to extract along a given axis.  You need three pieces of
information to do this: which indices, which axis, and possibly the
geometry of the output vector.  You're supplying the wrong information;
you're supplying which indices, and a geometry.  Matlab guesses the right
information (which axis) from the wrong information (the geometry).

When you index a 2-dimensional array in Matlab, what happens?  If the
index array is a row vector, then the indices you supply index the first
dimension.  If the index array is a column vector, then the indices index
the second dimension.  But what if the index array is two-dimensional?  
Which dimension should the indices index?  (For the record, they seem to
index the second dimension.)

numarray, on the other hand, provides an exact mechanism for supplying 
index arrays thusly:

>>> a=array([[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9]])
>>> a[[1,2],[0,0]]
array([4,7])

In this example, [1,2] are the row indices, and [0,0] are the column 
indices (the information Matlab guesses for you).  You can abbreviate 
[0,0] as just 0:

>>> a[[1,2],0]
array([4,7])

(try the previous in Matlab; you will get similar results)

You can index along another column vector if you want:

>>> a[[1,2],1]
array([5,8])

Or you can arbitrarily index both dimensions (AFAICT, something not 
possible in Matlab):

>>> a[[1,2],[0,1]]
array([4,8])

Note that doing the above in Matlab results in a 2x2 matrix, probably not 
what was wanted.  The explicit numarray equivalent to that Matlab 
construction is a[[[1],[2]],[[0,1]]].

Note also that the output vector takes the shape of the index vector:

>>> a[[[1,2]],0]
array([[4,7]])
>>> a[[[1],[2]],0]
array([[4],
       [7]])

So the answer to your question is, yes, not only can you use arbitrary 
array indices in numarray, they're more powerful than the Matlab 
equivalent.  Yet another reason why explicit is better than implicit.



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 12:31:00 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 02:31:00 +1000
Subject: Confused about pep 318
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040805093154fe91a8@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 12:12:59 -0400, Christopher T King <squirrel at wpi.edu> wrote:
> This is the post that started it all:
>  http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046599.html
> 
> Quote:
>  The @decorator patch has been landed on the trunk, after
>  getting the go-ahead from the BDFL. I'll update PEP-0318
>  with the final syntax in the next day or so.
> 
> That's the first most people had heard of it.  Guido had given Anthony
> Baxter the go-ahead in a private e-mail.  There had previously been no
> public discussions about it.

Nonsense.

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/thread.html#45516
was over a month earlier. In addition, the particular SF item for this 
http://www.python.org/sf/979728 wasn't exactly hidden.

Anthony


From porky_pig_jr at my-deja.com  Wed Aug 18 21:05:25 2004
From: porky_pig_jr at my-deja.com (Porky Pig Jr)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 18:05:25 -0700
Subject: IDLE under Cygwin doesn't show toolbar menu
Message-ID: <56cfb0e3.0408181608.794fed82@posting.google.com>

Just downloaded and installed the latest Cygwin distribution which
includes python 2.3.4. IDLE runs fine but for some reason the toolbar
menu doesn't show up.
Like, by default, it starts shell window, but no toolbar. If I type

idle foobar.py

it brings both shell and editor windows, but once again, no toolbar on
either window -- which renders the edtior quite disfunctional.

Just want to check if anyone else ever ran into this problem and what
was the workaround -- before I contact Cygwin folks.

TIA.


From peter at engcorp.com  Wed Aug 11 11:40:32 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:40:32 -0400
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>

John Marshall wrote:
> How about the following, which I am almost positive
> has not been suggested:
> -----
> class Klass:
>     def __init__(self, name):
>         self.name = name
> 
>     deco meth0:
>         staticmethod
>     def meth0(x):
>         return x
> 
> -----
> 1) The decorators clearly apply to a specific method/function,
>    therefore there is no need to do any stack pushing in memory
>    until the method/function definition is done.

Problems with that: duplication (since you now have the name
of the function in two places) and readability (it's harder to
see the "def" because the name you picked is too close to it
in length and appearance).

On the other hand, there's no need to have the function name
there (was anyone complaining about "stack pushing"?), so
maybe just using "decorate" would be okay, or a different
keyword:

class Klass:
     # init set

     decorate:
         staticmethod
     def meth0(x):
         return x

> 2) The decorators are "outside" of the method/function they
>    decorate:
>    a) which will please those who want the outside location
>    b) will not be folded within the function
>    c) folding on the decorators can be done so that the
>       def is not obfuscated
>    d) can be located anywhere in the code--but most likely
>       before the "def ...()"
> 3) The sequence in which the decorators are applied is just
>    like code would be--this is certainly intuitive given
>    that we are writing code.

> Any comments?

Has potential, I think, with some changes.

I like the following about it:

1) keyword instead of punctuation
2) indentation consistent with rest of Python
3) similarity to try/finally or while/else and friends where
    the two clauses are coupled

I wouldn't mind seeing exactly the same idea allowed for
decorators *inside* the function as well, so that we can
experiment for a while and see which, if any, is preferred,
but I doubt that would happen.

-Peter


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 00:21:50 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 14:21:50 +1000
Subject: Proposed improved decorator syntax
In-Reply-To: <BruceEckel-0lpTuAUWXG0EuRlX5HsHfdP/jM2g0bK@mailblocks.com>
References: <1091753696.4112d6e06ea9e@webmail.oregonstate.edu>
	<1091564446.20040805213345@MailBlocks.com>
	<BruceEckel-0lpTuAUWXG0EuRlX5HsHfdP/jM2g0bK@mailblocks.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408052121454cb88b@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 21:33:45 -0600, Bruce Eckel
<bruceeckel at mailblocks.com> wrote:
> I don't know if "experimental features" have been put into the
> language before, ones that actually exist in a release but have
> warnings on them that say "things may change as we learn more." But if
> not, it seems like this might be the time to start. I think we need
> something to express metadata and/or code behavior change and/or
> whatever it is that we're really trying to do, but I don't think we'll
> figure out what that is until we have something to experiment with --
> and change.

I don't think any "experimental features" will remain experimental beyond
the alpha cycle of a release. Once we hit beta, we stop experimenting. This
is a pretty fundamental thing about Python, in comparision to other languages -
it's rare for something to be taken away after it's added.


From nzanella at cs.mun.ca  Wed Aug 11 15:19:21 2004
From: nzanella at cs.mun.ca (Neil Zanella)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 12:19:21 -0700
Subject: PyQt + PygreSQL
References: <b68d2f19.0408101243.42644a11@posting.google.com>
	<opscjbgindyendvp@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
Message-ID: <b68d2f19.0408111119.d7c56b1@posting.google.com>

Grzegorz Dostatni <dostatnig at yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<opscjbgindyendvp at news.srv.ualberta.ca>...

> I don't know how to set it up using pygresql, but you can do it using 
> qtsql module. Just make sure that qt was compiled with the postgresql 
> support.

Thanks, I should have used the Python equivalent of QSqlDatabase::addDatabase()
to connect to PostgreSQL instead of using PyGreSQL. That way QDataTable can
find and use the database connection handle it knows about. After all, PyQt 
knows nothing about PyGreSQL: as you just pointed out the two packages are 
completely unrelated and independent of each other.

> If you need to use pygresql for some reason, you could always try to have 
> multiple connections to the database from you code (one through qtsql 
> module, another through qtsql).

Exactly, but actually now that you pointed this out to me I don't think
I will need PyGreSQL since I'm already using the Qt database module.

Thanks,

Neil


From indigo at bitglue.com  Wed Aug 18 15:30:00 2004
From: indigo at bitglue.com (Phil Frost)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:30:00 -0400
Subject: name of current program
In-Reply-To: <4a0cafe20408181227543a1284@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4a0cafe20408181227543a1284@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040818193000.GB30372@unununium.org>

sys.argv[0] will yield the command that was used to invoke the program.

On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 02:27:39PM -0500, Josh Close wrote:
> This is a simple question, but I can't find the answer for some reason.
> 
> How do I get the name of the current script/program that is running?


From sholden at holdenweb.com  Tue Aug 31 09:26:36 2004
From: sholden at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:26:36 -0400
Subject: GUI Wizard: flow control?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2666.1093958287.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2666.1093958287.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <x2%Yc.65136$4o.6006@fed1read01>

David Chan wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I'm trying to use python to create GUI wizards, i.e. sequences of dialog
> boxes with <BACK and NEXT> buttons.  Since I want to re-use some of the
> dialog boxes in different wizards, I want to have a main function which
> calls each dialog box, much like this:
> 
>     def select_item():
>         """runs GUI wizard to select item"""
> 
>         client = show_client_dialog()
>         job = show_job_dialog(client)
>         invoice, rate = show_invoice_dialog(job)
>         item = choose_item_dialog(invoice, rate)
>         return item
> 
> This works fine until you want to implement the <BACK button, which should
> return to the previous dialog.  Theoretically, what I'd really like is to be
> able to jump backwards through the control flow, like this:
> 
>     class GoBack(Exception): pass
>     def select_item():
>         """runs GUI wizard to select item - can go <BACK"""
>         back = HERE
>         client = show_client_dialog()
> 
>         try: job = show_job_dialog(client)
>         except GoBack: back.goto()
>         back = HERE
> 
>         try: invoice, rate = show_invoice_dialog(job)
>         except GoBack: back.goto()
>         back = HERE
> 
>         try: item = show_item_dialog(invoice, rate)
>         except GoBack: back.goto()
> 
>         return item
> 
> But I couldn't find a way of doing anything like that.  You could do
> something almost as unhorrible with nested breaks:'
> 
>     class GoBack(Exception): pass
>     def select_item():
>         """runs GUI wizard to select item - can go <BACK"""
>         CLIENT: while 1:
>             client = show_client_dialog()
>             
>             JOB: while 1:
>                 try: job = show_job_dialog(client)
>                 except GoBack: continue CLIENT
> 
>                 INVOICE: while 1:
>                     try: invoice, rate = show_invoice_dialog(job)
>                     except GoBack: continue JOB
>                     
>                     try: item = show_item_dialog(invoice, rate)
>                     except GoBack: continue INVOICE
>                     break CLIENT
> 
> Or you could do all the flow control manually in a "do_wizard" function and
> make the caller create a horrible data structure instead of writing readable
> code:
> 
>     calls = [
>         {'meth': show_client_dialog, 'args': [], 'ret': ['client']},
>         {'meth': show_job_dialog, 'args': ['client'], 'ret': ['job']},
>         {'meth': show_invoice_dialog, 'args': ['job'], 'ret': ['invoice', 'rate']},
>         {'meth': show_item_dialog, 'args': ['invoice', 'rate'], 'ret': ['item']},
>     ] # this just says: "client = show_client_dialog()", etc.
>     do_wizard(calls, locals())
> 
> 
> But this is too hideous to deploy, because I might have to remember what it
> does in six months :-)  
> 
> Can anyone suggest something better, or should I abandon my goal of having a
> main function which calls each dialog box?
> 
> Many thanks,

Caveat: I am assuming that your chosen GUI allows you to easily choose 
which of a number of panels is displayed inside a dialog. This is 
typically most easily done with the component usually known as a notebook.

You create a list a panels, each of which you have constructed using 
your chosen GUI. You then associate the "Next" button with a function 
that displays the next panel in the sequence, and the "Back" button with 
a function that displays the preceding panel in the sequence.

The dialog then becomes just a list of the panels, plus a counter to 
tell you which in the sequence is currently being displayed.

You *don't* want to try and control flow through the sequence in the way 
you have attempted. Typically windows are actually just data structures, 
and so data-driven methods will work best.

Naturally, each of the panels in the notebook will have callbacks 
associated with the various widgets, and interaction with those widgets 
will change the data that your program eventually sees when the user 
clicks the "Finish" button.

If you want to reuse the panels then make sure they are properly 
modularized so their creators can be called used in different programs.

regards
  Steve


From guettli at thomas-guettler.de  Thu Aug 19 10:11:51 2004
From: guettli at thomas-guettler.de (Thomas Guettler)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:11:51 +0200
Subject: favorite python web development tool?
References: <10i4nttktcvltdd@corp.supernews.com>
	<899f842.0408180922.38a834e9@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.19.14.11.51.369926@thomas-guettler.de>

Am Wed, 18 Aug 2004 10:22:43 -0700 schrieb Anthony_Barker:

>> given my background, webware+cheetah feels comfortingly familiar, and 
>> i'm leaning toward it.  before i dive in, though, i'm wondering what you 
>> experienced users think about it, compared to the other tools that are 
>> out there.  eg, does the python environment have strengths that are 
>> better exploited with something other than a servlet-like model?
> 
> Have a look at mod_python 3.1 - I've found performance very good. I
> benchmarked it against a commercial oversized J2EE app server and for
> non complex app found it faster. It includes session handling and a
> basic template system. However, you can use whichever templating
> language you like with it. Cheetah is nice

Hi Anthony,

Did you compare it to SCGI, too?
http://www.mems-exchange.org/software/scgi/

 Thomas



From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Wed Aug 18 04:20:02 2004
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 10:20:02 +0200
Subject: favorite python web development tool?
In-Reply-To: <10i4nttktcvltdd@corp.supernews.com>
References: <10i4nttktcvltdd@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <41230917$0$20703$626a14ce@news.free.fr>

mike wrote:
> hi all -
> 
> 
> i'm fairly new to python, coming from a java servlet / velocity template 
> background.  i'm looking for a good python web development tool, and 
> hope to find some suggestions here.
> 
> given my background, webware+cheetah feels comfortingly familiar, and 
> i'm leaning toward it.  before i dive in, though, i'm wondering what you 
> experienced users think about it, compared to the other tools that are 
> out there.  eg, does the python environment have strengths that are 
> better exploited with something other than a servlet-like model?
> 

Well, I'm currently writing my first app with Zope, and I find it a 
wonderful (but alas very badly documented) tool, at least compared with 
PHP. I wrote in 3 days what would have took me *at least* twice that 
time with a PHP based solution.

I can't tell you much about other python-based solutions since I did not 
try them.



From mattjensen at timetospare.net  Mon Aug 30 18:10:45 2004
From: mattjensen at timetospare.net (Matthew K Jensen)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 15:10:45 -0700
Subject: console window not disappearing with py2exe
Message-ID: <173c23bb.0408301410.49b27fe4@posting.google.com>

In another one of my silly apps, I'm using 'windows=' in the setup
script. I can't get the darn console window do disappear. Since the
said app is going to be used with people that have less-than-average
knowledge in computers, it is imperative that this window goes away. I
tried sys.frozen = "windows_exe" and it doesn't work. I'm not sure
what to do. Please save me!

-Matt K Jensen


From jaydonnell at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 25 12:56:26 2004
From: jaydonnell at yahoo.com (Jay Donnell)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 09:56:26 -0700
Subject: urllib hangs
References: <a6fdfd6b.0408230902.2afc0e08@posting.google.com>
	<cgdaoh$1gn$01$1@news.t-online.com>
	<a6fdfd6b.0408231537.c2c5af2@posting.google.com>
	<tZOdnSAokOE9VbfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<a6fdfd6b.0408241006.6b5c4d65@posting.google.com>
	<cggcg3$k49$02$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <a6fdfd6b.0408250856.15251645@posting.google.com>

Your example needed the module name in front of the method calls in
test.py
Here it is in case anyone is interested. I had no idea that this sort
of think could be done.

## foo.py
def A():
     print "original A called"

def B():
     A()   # this could also be in another module
           # the effect would be the same


###### bar.py
# this is an addon that modifies foo
import foo

origA = foo.A
def newA():
     print "new A called"
foo.A = newA


#!/usr/bin/python
###### test.py
import foo
foo.B()
import bar
foo.B()


From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Sat Aug 28 14:43:56 2004
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:43:56 -0700
Subject: How to generically transform a list?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2505.1093589841.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <opsdcguchn35jo5o@news.gmane.org>
	<mailman.2505.1093589841.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4130d3e9$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

Marco Aschwanden wrote:

> 
> Thanks to all the hints which seem to prove that there is one and only 
> one sensible approach - though some (like me) needed a few more lines.
> 
> It is just funny how easy horizontal slicing is made (list[:]) but how 
> "difficult" vertical slicing is. It is a common task and one does not 
> realize how often one does need vertical slicing. eg.: getting the keys 
> of dictionary is a vertical slicing, or turning a list into a dict 
> involves vertical slicing...
> 
> Just out of pure curiosity: Is there a langue that allows vertical and 
> horizontal slicing and dicing with the same built-in pattern?
> 
> Regards,
> Marco (Eagerly awaiting the cookbook's second edition)
> 
> 
> 
Check out Numeric (for Python).  They do lots of slicing anddicing.
APL cetainly has (had?) it as its meat.
I think J is an ASCII-friendly APL variant.

-Scott David Daniels
Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org


From me at privacy.net  Tue Aug 31 17:05:48 2004
From: me at privacy.net (James Keasley)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 21:05:48 GMT
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4PGdnfsOfdDPi63cRVn-tA@speakeasy.net>
	<slrncj1745.t5q.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<41337FC9.8070902@hotmail.com>
	<slrncj7hhh.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<p7v7j0plcfbden593l1irfprmfkp4d3k51@4ax.com>
	<slrncj8m5n.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<%T%Yc.29567$Es2.11957889@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<du7k6vfnvx9.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi> <4134AC88.56452265@yahoo.com>
	<aN2Zc.10226$QJ3.5466@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
	<8KadnRWhvb1sRqncRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
Message-ID: <slrncj9q1c.ev1.me@athena.homeric.co.uk>

On 2004-08-31, Sherm Pendley <spamtrap at dot-app.org> wrote:
> red floyd wrote:
>
>> Let the editor flame wars begin!
>
> Anyone else remember Blackbeard?

Arr Sherm, me-lad, that I do, great man, never got his
round in though ;)

-- 
James					jamesk[at]homeric[dot]co[dot]uk

Black holes suck!


From donn at drizzle.com  Mon Aug 16 00:42:57 2004
From: donn at drizzle.com (Donn Cave)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 04:42:57 -0000
Subject: os.system(), HTTPServer, and finishing HTTP requests
References: None <41201e06@nntp.zianet.com>
Message-ID: <1092631376.357585@yasure>

Quoth "Erik Johnson" <ej <at> wellkeeper <dot> com>:
...
|      But if I make this same os.system() call from within my own HTTPServer,
| then the browser that is making the request is left hanging until that
| sleeping grandchild is done. It's like there is still a socket connection
| between it and my browser?!? But the grandchild is not forked from the
| server - it's an os.system() call!  It should not be inherting any file
| descriptors and such, right?

On the contrary, system() does call fork - basically,

   def system(command):
       pid = fork()
       if pid:
           return waitpid(pid, 0)[1]
       else:
           execve('/bin/sh', ['sh', '-c', command], environ)

and indeed file descriptors will be inherited.  You'll
have to explicitly close the socket.

	Donn Cave, donn at drizzle.com


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Sat Aug 21 15:45:53 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:45:53 +0200
Subject: unicodedata name for \u000a
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2120.1093116249.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2120.1093116249.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408212145180.1131-100000@kleigh.nl>

Ken Beesley schreef:

>
> There is, of course, a Unicode name for \u000a,

No, there isn't. Check
http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0000.pdf


-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 17 19:29:34 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:29:34 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
In-Reply-To: <20040817181725194-0400@braeburn.themorgue.org>
References: <20040817181725194-0400@braeburn.themorgue.org>
Message-ID: <cfu4ct$r36$1@sea.gmane.org>

Kevin Smith wrote:
> For what it's worth, I wrote the original PEP 318.  I probably wasn't 
> qualified, but I just wanted a nice simple way to declare class methods 
> without having to repeat the function name.  After submitting it to BDFL 
> for approval, more work was needed and the discussion of PEP 318 on 
> python-dev increased rapidly.  It was evident that I was in over my head, 
> so I asked more someone more experienced to take over.  
> 
> I guess others had bigger plans for my proposal that I had planned.  It 
> has turned into the "solution" to many problems: type checking (both 
> arguments and returned values), metaclasses, metadata, interfaces, 
> function attributes, etc.).  Unfortunately, in the process, this simple 
> request for syntactical sugar has turned into a monstrosity.  In my 
> opinion, none of the proposed syntaxes really seem Pythonic.  This PEP 
> just seems to be trying to solve too many problems.
> 
> Bear with me, but I'd like to propose one more syntax that is simple, 
> easy for newbies to understand,  and nowhere near as powerful as the 
> current PEP's syntax.  However, it doesn't add incoherent, arbitrary 
> syntax either.
> 
> def classmethod foo(x, y, z):
>     pass
> 
> That's it.  One "decorator" that is a callable object that takes a 
> method as it's only argument.  No expressions, lists, tuples, etc.  Just 
> one callable object.  Ok, if you absolutely must have more than one.
> 
> def classmethod synchronized foo(x, y, z):
>     pass
> 
> Once again, no expressions.  I know that this isn't going to solve 
> everyone's type-checking, metadata, and function attribute problems, but 
> let's face it, using this PEP for all of those things just creates ugly 
> syntax.  There must be more Pythonic ways to do those things in their 
> own PEPs. 
> 

Nope.  That's using static declarations.  We're a dynamically typed 
language as much as possible.  Isn't there something that doesn't 
require any additional grammar words to identify classmethods and 
staticmethods?  Isn't there something, inherent in the way static, 
class, and instance methods 'look' naturally, that would tell us what 
they are?





From po-yung.liu at pandora.be  Wed Aug 25 15:12:43 2004
From: po-yung.liu at pandora.be (Vent d'Est - East Wind)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:12:43 GMT
Subject: 100 % portable ?
In-Reply-To: <qnkpt5hseqp.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
References: <rp_Vc.221989$xO.10939509@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<sl1nv1-7jm.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<TkpWc.223279$3C7.10910854@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<qnkpt5hseqp.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
Message-ID: <Lw5Xc.225468$f54.11083832@phobos.telenet-ops.be>


> 
> 
> I think you've missed the point of wxWidgets/wxPython: it uses native
> widgets on each platform. On OS X, it uses Aqua widgets; on Linux, QT
> or GTK, on Windows, native Windows widgets.
> 
> So, you're not going to get the same appearence on different
> platforms (which is a good thing; I don't want to use something that
> looks like Windows on a Mac).
> 

yeah i like it too Acqua style , but what i didn't understand before
it s how it can be do that (my point of view was like a java vm , so 
that s why i think it s same apparence in other system too)
now i visited wxwidget , explanation simple and interresting :)
just what i search , graphical toolkit native on different plateforme
supporting same code :)

thankxx a lot


From David.Vaughan at Gifford.UK.com  Thu Aug 26 09:08:49 2004
From: David.Vaughan at Gifford.UK.com (David Vaughan)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:08:49 +0100
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
Message-ID: <C59AEFCA2D33284B8EE3C0A8C8C9004A108477@kiwi>


I vote FOR the "J2" proposal as described at
http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html
Please add my name to the "in favor" list there.

David


David Vaughan
Structural Analyst
for Gifford
 
  _____  

GIFFORD AND PARTNERS LTD
Carlton House, Ringwood Road, Woodlands,
Southampton, SO40 7HT,  UNITED KINGDOM
 
Tel: +44 (0)23 8081 7500      Fax: +44 (0)23 8081 7600
Email: David.Vaughan at gifford.uk.com
Web:  http://www.gifford.uk.com
  _____  

This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for
the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed and may
be confidential.  If you are not the intended recipient or the person
responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, be
advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use,
dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail is
strictly prohibited.
 


From mwilson at the-wire.com  Sat Aug 28 20:00:45 2004
From: mwilson at the-wire.com (Mel Wilson)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 20:00:45 -0400
Subject: Generator expressions v/s list comprehensions
References: <mahesh-525B07.12195528082004@individual.net>
	<1gj8y77.6qshr41q531veN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<mahesh-7E265C.14093428082004@individual.net>
Message-ID: <tyRMBls/KP3C089yn@the-wire.com>

In article <mahesh-7E265C.14093428082004 at individual.net>,
Mahesh Padmanabhan <mahesh at privacy.net> wrote:
>I am still not clear of the advantages of using generator expressions
>(other than less memory consumption) instead of list comprehension for
>any given class of problems. Can you cite concrete use cases where
>generator expressions would be preferred over list comprehension?

   Storage economy and the time saved by omitting lots of
object creation and destruction are the main advantages of
generator expressions.

   The advantage of lists is that they'll stand still while
you do things to them (things like iterating over them in
many and novel ways.)  The mind does boggle at the idea of a
data-processing program that has replaced all containers
with generator expressions, and creates all its information
on-demand without storing anything anywhere.

        Regards.        Mel.


From justin__devine at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 30 13:12:30 2004
From: justin__devine at hotmail.com (Justin)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 10:12:30 -0700
Subject: Size of a remote URL
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2612.1093879061.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgvn5u$p0b@odah37.prod.google.com>

I want to track the download of files in a progress bar.  I asume I
need the final size to do that so I can compare it to the current size
on disk.  Le tme know if you know anything



From mnh at cogitation.org  Tue Aug  3 13:19:25 2004
From: mnh at cogitation.org (Mark Hertel)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 17:19:25 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: MYSQL and use of blobs
References: <mailman.918.1091108967.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrncgvi8t.d9i.mnh@panix3.panix.com>

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:48:28 -0500, Raaijmakers, Vincent (GE
Infrastructure) <Vincent.Raaijmakers at ge.com> wrote:

> It is the first time that I use blobs in mysql Please help me out    .
> here....                                                             .
>
> Using MSSQLdb and python 2.3.4 I was surprised to see how my
> information was stored in the blob. My goal is to store JPG
> images in the blob. Well, it stores it but as a string of bytes:
> 'x0dx0fxffxa3......'
>
> So, when reading back that information into my python environment, it
> seems that I need to translate the value back to the original binary
> format?
>
> Sniffed for an hour in the asciibin, binhex and other modules...
>
> Somebody with experience to help me out here? Is there something
> fundamentally that I do wrong here? In storage, retreiving...
>
> Any help would be very appreciated. Vincent


I didn't have to do anything more fancy than read the information
from the database and write it as a binary file.

SQL table:

create table if not exists audioImage(id int auto_increment primary key,
problemID int, realName varchar(250), shortName varchar(250), data
longblob


Storing the images/audio files:
  fileData = open(fileName, 'rb').read()
  fileData = zlib.compress(fileData,9)
  fileData = db.escape_string(fileData)
  query = "insert into audioImage(problemID, data,
           shortName) values(%d, '%s', '%s')" % (problemID,
           fileData, file)

Retrieving the stored images or audio files:
self.db.execute('select shortName,data from audioImage where id=%d' % int(id))
result = self.db.getAll()
fileName = result[0][0]
retResult = result[0][0]
realData = zlib.decompress(result[0][1])
open(fileName,'wb').write(realData)


This deposits the audio/image files in the current directory where
the program picks them up and uses them. There wasn't anything special
to do, other than retrieving and decompressing the data.


--Mark Hertel


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 31 14:40:41 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:40:41 -0400
Subject: Converting integers to english representation
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2683.1093974630.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2683.1093974630.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <B4idncBxReq2W6ncRVn-gw@powergate.ca>

brianc at temple.edu wrote:

> I'm developing a system to parse and enumerate addresses. The
> current obstacle is numbered streets. Does anybody know of a
> module already written to convert integers to their english
> equivalents?
> 
> Example:
> 1ST -> FIRST
> SECOND -> 2ND
> 
> Anything towards that direction would greatly help and save me
> a lot of time then from starting from scratch.

The word you are missing is probably 'ordinal', as opposed
to cardinal (one, two, three) numbers.  Google can likely
help you with a search for "ordinal number convert' or
such.

-Peter


From bulliver at badcomputer.no-ip.com  Tue Aug 24 17:13:23 2004
From: bulliver at badcomputer.no-ip.com (Darren Kirby)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:13:23 -0700
Subject: How does a "script" differ from a "program" or "subroutine"?
In-Reply-To: <PmLWc.19646$DG.738135@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <cge1h0$8qd@odbk17.prod.google.com>
	<lvnmi0tq1phergljf3211g4dtgue93qhqh@4ax.com>
	<PmLWc.19646$DG.738135@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <200408241413.23777.bulliver@badcomputer.no-ip.com>

Larry Wall said it best:
"A script is what you give the actors, a program is what you give the 
audience"

-- 
Part of the problem since 1976
http://badcomputer.no-ip.com

"...the number of UNIX installations has grown to 10, with more expected..."
- Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson, June 1972 


From fumanchu at amor.org  Thu Aug 26 16:42:44 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:42:44 -0700
Subject: Inline Conditionals?
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E8B@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Alex Martelli wrote:
> Antoon Pardon <apardon at forel.vub.ac.be> wrote:
>    ...
> > When using list comprehension not having a ternary operator can be
> > a PITA. It is of course possible I miss something but how am I
> > supposed to do the following:
> > 
> >    [ x.property ? foo(x) : bar(x) for x in Somelist ]
> 
> If you HAVE to use an LC by doctor's order, the above effect might be
> obtained by coding something like:
> 
> [  (bar,foo)[bool(x.property)](x) for x in Somelist ]
> 
> If your physician should relent and let you code normal 
> Python, though,
> 
> aux = []
> for x in Somelist:
>     if x.property:
>         aux.append(foo(x))
>     else
>         aux.append(foo(x))
> 
> would be vastly more readable; "sparse is better than dense" 
> and any LC
> is far too dense to be Pythonic here.

Case in point: it makes it *vastly* easier to see the typo. What
happened to bar()?

But you planned that so someone else could deliver the punch line,
didn't you? ;)


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From peter.maas at mplusr.de  Fri Aug 27 04:51:55 2004
From: peter.maas at mplusr.de (Peter Maas)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:51:55 +0200
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
In-Reply-To: <tkfti0laq7ebn1t9374679u6tts20ba5n5@4ax.com>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<tkfti0laq7ebn1t9374679u6tts20ba5n5@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <cgmsjt$29r$1@swifty.westend.com>

George Neuner schrieb:

>>Unixism
>>
> 
> 
> "Isms", in my opinion, are not good.  A person should not believe in
> an "ism".  He should believe in himself.

Yes! Down with electromagnetism, optimism, idealism.

And first of all:

Fight patriotism.

;)

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Maas,  M+R Infosysteme,  D-52070 Aachen,  Tel +49-241-93878-0
E-mail 'cGV0ZXIubWFhc0BtcGx1c3IuZGU=\n'.decode('base64')
-------------------------------------------------------------------


From dperl at rogers.com  Fri Aug 27 13:18:24 2004
From: dperl at rogers.com (Dan Perl)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:18:24 GMT
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<mailman.2538.1093626899.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <A1KXc.79929$pTn.59172@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>

Yes, I saw that after posting my initial message.  Thanks though, Anthony!

Dan

"Anthony Baxter" <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2538.1093626899.5135.python-list at python.org...
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:06:06 GMT, Dan Perl <dperl at rogers.com> wrote:
> > Here is a python feature that I would like: to be able to import modules
> > from an archive like the jar files in Java.  Maybe a regular tar file?
> > Maybe a python specific file type, let's call it a 'par' file?
>
> Or a zip file, perhaps? See PEP-0273, which was implemented in Python 2.3.
>
> (Hm. 273 isn't up-to-date. This is bad :-(




From alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 15 22:17:50 2004
From: alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali)
Date: 15 Aug 2004 19:17:50 -0700
Subject: I am in great need of code to make a dome
Message-ID: <8f17f4bc.0408151817.6fa5eae0@posting.google.com>

I am in great need of code that will make a dome.

I would like the inputs to be similar to that of the sphere. ie:

pos=(x0, y0, z0)
radius = R
color = (r,g,b)
etc.

I am using VPython of course. Please help me.


From maxm at mxm.dk  Mon Aug 30 18:35:11 2004
From: maxm at mxm.dk (Max M)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 00:35:11 +0200
Subject: "Content-Length" header
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408310007040.1162-100000@kleigh.nl>
References: <ch07ui$edo@odbk17.prod.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408310007040.1162-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <4133ab0e$0$301$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>

Peter Kleiweg wrote:
> Justin schreef:
> 
>>I found the answer.  After about 3 hours of agonizing over it it turned
>>out to be CASE
>>some webservers are CASE SENSITVE about their urls and some are not.
> 
> There are case-insensitive webservers? Never knew that.

As far as I remember IIS is case insensitive. I guess it would have to 
be when the os is.

regards Max M


From hbl at st-andrews.ac.uk  Fri Aug 27 13:05:45 2004
From: hbl at st-andrews.ac.uk (Hamish Lawson)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 10:05:45 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <2d0b37fc.0408270905.6306fe5c@posting.google.com>

40


Hamish Lawson


From bryanjugglercryptographer at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 11 21:49:45 2004
From: bryanjugglercryptographer at yahoo.com (Bryan Olson)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 18:49:45 -0700
Subject: rsa implementation question
References: <1092200894.4119a9beb1978@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>	<200408110852.57937.heikowu@ceosg.de>	<mailman.1483.1092208637.5135.python-list@python.org>	<5GkSc.124$O72.121@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>
	<mailman.1487.1092217632.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1a517b5.0408111749.6428df94@posting.google.com>

Ajay wrote:
> could you elaborate on that? i thought signing by decrypting is
> the way to do it.

That is how Rivest, Shamir and Adleman originally presented it,
and they did win the ACM's Turing Award for the work, but the 
use of 'raw' RSA is full of subtle problems.  To understand the 
basics, see chapter 11 of the book that Heiko Wundram cited: 
(available free on-line)

  http://www.cacr.math.uwaterloo.ca/hac/

In you really want to understand the math, I cited some of the 
major papers in my response to Wundram.  That's beyond the scope 
of this group.

If you're implementing, just use a current standard that 
cryptologists respect.  For basic RSA (en/de)crypt and 
sign/verify, PKCS#1 is a fine way to go.   As I write this the 
current version is 2.1, which is also published as RFC 3447.


-- 
--Bryan


From Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU  Sat Aug 21 18:49:43 2004
From: Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU (Michael J. Fromberger)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:49:43 -0400
Subject: Fate of lambda, Functional Programming in Python...
References: <412636D1.6070808@noaa.gov>
	<mailman.2073.1093028474.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<41265E67.A08409A6@juno.com> <2on5k1FcjmvdU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<4dxun9nvgeaz.dlg@baczek.net.invalid>
	<87y8k9hqnq.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>
Message-ID: <Michael.J.Fromberger-16497F.18494321082004@localhost>

In article 
<87y8k9hqnq.fsf at debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>,
 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de wrote:

> Marek <imbaczek-nospam at poczta.fm.cut-from-here.no-spam.info> writes:
> 
> may map, filter, reduce be implemented in pure python if they weren't 
> built-in? scheme e.g. does not have built-in filter, but may 
> implement it on the fly.

I do not see any reason why not.  Simple map and filter implementations 
for lists are almost trivial given list comprehensions.  But, you do 
have to be slightly careful of return types; I think the following 
implementations are correct:

  def map(fn, *lsts):
    assert(len(lsts) > 0)
    
    return [ fn(*args) for args in zip(*lsts) ]

  def filter(fn, seq):
    if fn is None:
      out = [ x for x in seq if x ]
    else:
      out = [ x for x in seq if fn(x) ]
    
    if isinstance(seq, str):
      return str.join('', out)
    else:
      return type(seq)(out)

Reduce is a little bit harder to get exactly right, because of the 
semantics of the initial value.  However, I do think the following does 
most of what reduce() is supposed to, even though it is not quite 
equivalent to the existing reduce():

  def reduce(fn, seq, init = None):
    seq = iter(seq)
    
    if init is None:
      try:
        init = seq.next()
      except StopIteration:
        raise TypeError("reduce() of empty sequence "
                        "with no initial value")
    
    for elt in seq:
      init = fn(init, elt)
    
    return init

To perfectly emulate the built-in reduce, you would have to declare it 
as reduce(fn, *args), to distinguish between the case when the user 
omitted the init argument, and when they actually specified it as None.  
That makes the code nastier, of course.

> may lambda be implemented with exec if it isn't built-in?

Not directly; the lambda form is currently wired into the syntax, and 
there is no macro system.  Scheme (and other Lisp dialects) can get away 
with a lot fewer built-in special forms because of the relative ease of 
writing macros.  Macros for an infix language are not impossible, by any 
means, but they are definitely not easy (and definitely not "Pythonic").

I would prefer to see an expression-level function constructor to remain 
in the language.  I don't care if it's called "lambda" per se, and I 
don't care if the syntax changes, but I would definitely like to keep 
the functionality around.  Now that there ARE nested scopes, it seems 
that Guido's initial objections to the construct are mostly moot.

-M

-- 
Michael J. Fromberger             | Lecturer, Dept. of Computer Science
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~sting/  | Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA


From michael at foord.net  Mon Aug  2 06:45:17 2004
From: michael at foord.net (Fuzzyman)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 03:45:17 -0700
Subject: Making a socket connection via a proxy server
References: <8089854e.0407300433.4c09bce0@posting.google.com>
	<_yvOc.5828$Z14.7072@news.indigo.ie>
Message-ID: <8089854e.0408020245.47bcb5df@posting.google.com>

[snip..]

> > 
> > It looks like the Tiny HTTP Proxy (using BaseHTTPServer as it's
> > foundation) intercepts all requests to local addresses and then
> > re-implements the request (whether it is CONNECT, GET, PUT or
> > whatever). It logs everything that goes through it - I will simply
> > edit it to amend the URL that is being asked for.
> 
> Yes, that is exactly what the proxy should do. It relays requests 
> between client and server. However, there is one vital detail you're 
> probably missing that is preventing you from chaining client + proxy*N 
> + server together.
> 
> When sending a HTTP GET request to a server, a client sends a request 
> line containing a URI without a server component. This is because the 
> socket connection to the server is already formed, therefore the 
> server connection details do not need to be repeated. So a standard 
> GET will look like this
> 
> GET /index.html HTTP/1.1
> 
> However, it's different when a client connects to a proxy, because the 
> socket no longer connects directly to the server, but to the proxy 
> instead. The proxy still needs to know to which server it should send 
> the request. So the correct format for sending requests to a proxy is 
> to use the "absoluteURI" form, which includes the server details, e.g.
> 
> GET http://www.python.org:80/index.html HTTP/1.1
> 
> Any proxy that receives such a request now knows that the server to 
> forward to is "www.python.org:80". It will open a connection to 
> www.python.org:80, and send it a GET request for the URI.
> 
> Since you want your proxy to forward to another proxy, i.e. your proxy 
> is a client from your external-access-proxy's point of view, you 
> should also use the absoluteURI form when making requests from your 
> python proxy to your external proxy.

Well the two minor changes you suggested worked straight away for
normal HTML pages - great.
It's not fetching images and a couple of other problems (possibly
because that proxy server can only handle HTTP/1.0 - but I have a more
advanced one called TcpWatch from Zope that I might hack around).

But there's more than enough for me to go on and get it working.

MANY THANKS

Regards,

Fuzzy

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html


From rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm  Thu Aug 19 18:35:53 2004
From: rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm (Roel Schroeven)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:35:53 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
Message-ID: <dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

Roel Schroeven wrote:

> I spotted some errors in your list, added new entries, and made a 
> histogram: http://roelschroeven.net/pythonages/

Whoops, I had a duplicate entry. Updated:

number of datapoints: 94
mean: 35.4
standard deviation: 12.6

Gerrit Muller	47
Lucas Raab	14
OKB (not okbackle)	20
Jeremy Jones	31
Ben Last	39
Neuruss	34
Tony Clarke	55
simo	26
Elbert Lev	55
Kamilche	40
Gerardo Herzig	30
JanC	30
Mike Rovner	41
Guyon Mor?e	21
Tom Brown	35
Will McGugan	30
Christopher T King	19
Skip Montanaro	50
Marcin Jurczuk	26
Reid Nichol	27
Egbert Bouwman	67
VSOFTSMITH	62
Mark Jackson	55
Harry George	52
Stephen Ferg	58
Scott David Daniels	53
Peter Wilkinson	32
oziko	24
Dave Opstad	50
Adonis	23
Jorge Godoy	25
Peter Hickman	43
Axel Steiner	22
Larry Bates	49
Robin Becker	57
Thomas Heller	48
Paul McQuire	45
wes weston	55
P at draigBrady.com	30
Ian Sparks	34
Roel Schroeven	29
Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou	32
Gary Herron	52
Ksenia Marasanova	31
Marius Bernklev	24
Robert Boyd	40
Fred Pacquier	44
Jarek Zgoda	33
Leif K-Brooks	13
Peter Maas	48
Tim Jarman	42
Irmen de Jong	30
Ted	46
Roman Suzi	30
Dave Benjamin	25
Christian von Essen	18
Byron	28
R Baumann	55
Batista, Facundo	29
Jeff Shannon	35
Cousin Stanley	58
Berthold H?llmann	38
mensanator at aol.com	50
Ville Vainio	27
Istvan Albert	32
Andrea Griffini	38
Arthur Rambo	43
Beeyah	15
Eli Stevens (WG.c)	25
Bigbowser	15
Hemanth P.S.	32
richard	32
Marcos Eimil Pardo	28
Daniel Harding	25
Rod Haper	57
Bruno Desthuilliers	37
avaeq	19
Alexandre Fayolle	30
Andrew Durdin	24
Max M	39
Ganesan R	32
Stefan Schukat	33
Robbie	18
Marc Boeren	34
Gerrit van Dyk	39
Oliver Fromme	33
Nicolas Evrard	27
vronskij at post.sk	25
Alan Kennedy	37
Francis Lavoie	25
Richard Hanson	53
brianc at temple.edu	20
Rex	17
Wilk	35

-- 
"Codito ergo sum"
Roel Schroeven


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 03:15:06 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 17:15:06 +1000
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar, but for what exactly?
In-Reply-To: <898217E4-EA67-11D8-9DC2-000A9574CFD8@earthlink.net>
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
	<4115b53a$1@nntp0.pdx.net> <4116239e$1@news.012.net.il>
	<d111eafa.0408081949.3c28a465@posting.google.com>
	<d111eafa.0408090138.23bc6989@posting.google.com>
	<4117a43b$1@news.012.net.il>
	<d111eafa.0408091406.a125d87@posting.google.com>
	<898217E4-EA67-11D8-9DC2-000A9574CFD8@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204081300152fc0e0c1@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 20:52:21 -0400, gohaku <gohaku at earthlink.net> wrote:
> In case it has not been brought up before...
> 
> @decorator reminds me too much of Perl arrays.

A number of times. And this means what?


From jmeile at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 11 04:02:14 2004
From: jmeile at hotmail.com (Josef Meile)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:02:14 +0200
Subject: Python equivalent to a C trick
In-Reply-To: <vNcSc.10767$KZ2.2593@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <1d7b6d0d.0408092255.1177908e@posting.google.com>
	<slrnchgsml.8e4.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>
	<WR8Sc.10717$KZ2.9031@fe2.texas.rr.com> <4119327f$1@pfaff2.ethz.ch>
	<vNcSc.10767$KZ2.2593@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4119d0c0$1@pfaff2.ethz.ch>

Paul McGuire wrote:
> No offense taken! :)
> 
> The OP was looking for a general solution to <condition> ? <if-true-action>
> : <else-action>, then gave us the "you have n egg(s)" example.
So, I guess it is like the "foo" keyword.

> In the general case, the number for comparison isn't always an integer
> quantity such as eggs.  It could be "dollar(s)"/"euro(s)"/"Swiss
> franc(s)"/"yen" (hmm, I guess "yen" isn't a problem...), or "ton(s) of
> salami", or "pound(s) of cement", or "degree(s) Celsius", or...  Anyway,
> even though eggs are usually counted from 1 to n in integer steps, other
> quantities can easily be negative and/or continuous.  Still the singular -
> in English, anyway - is usually used *only* when the quantity is 1.
> Fractional and zero amounts, even though less than 1, still most naturally
> use the plural form.
> 
> You have 0.5 dollars
> You have gained 1 pound
> You increased temperature by 0 degrees
> You have -2 dollars (that is, you owe 2 dollars)
Good point ;-)

> My point (which I guess didn't come across too well) was that this is a
> typical coding and testing error, in which only positive integer values > 0
> are assumed, because we often mentally equate "plural" with "more than 1".
> But whether you are working in an integer, real, positive-only, or all
> numbers context, testing with n != 1 should determine whether singular noun
> should be used.
I like your solution and I think it even considers when n=0, while the 
other example fails and write "You have 0 egg"


From paul at subsignal.org  Sun Aug 22 17:01:11 2004
From: paul at subsignal.org (paul k)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 23:01:11 +0200
Subject: python doesn't like my numbers
Message-ID: <2osfspFdnjbcU1@uni-berlin.de>

hi,

is there any way to convince python not to take my (phone)numbers 
starting with zero as octals?

 >>> int(088)
   File "<stdin>", line 1
     int(088)
           ^
SyntaxError: invalid token

thanks
  Paul


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 11:34:40 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 01:34:40 +1000
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com> <cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>

[I was going to leave this thread alone now, but I need to correct
another piece of misinformation before I go, in case the 3 or 4 people
who've stayed with this thread get the wrong idea <wink>]

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:09:42 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Yes, it doesn't seem all that complex, although I'm not sure that
> everyone reading this understands them and their subtleties.  The
> following is an excerpt from
> http://docs.python.org/tut/node11.html#SECTION0011200000000000000000
>
> "A namespace is a mapping from names to objects. Most namespaces are
> currently implemented as Python dictionaries, but that's normally not
> noticeable in any way (except for performance), and it may change in the
> future. Examples of namespaces are: the set of built-in names (functions
> such as abs(), and built-in exception names); the global names in a
> module; and the local names in a function invocation. In a sense the set
> of attributes of an object also form a namespace."

> When I talk about namespaces, I include all of the above, including the
> sense mentioned in the last line.  So an object's attributes constitute
> a namespace too.  Therefore __doc__, being an attribute of the function
> object, is in the function object's /namespace/.  And note that this is
> *not* a new namespace; it's been there all along.

"In a sense" is the bit you're missing here. You can't just hand-wave
and say that it's a namespace. It's *not* a namespace. If it was, you
could do any of these:

>>> def foo():
...   "a docstring"
...
>>>
>>> eval('__doc__', foo)
Traceback (most recent call last):
 File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
TypeError: globals must be a dict
>>> eval('__doc__', globals(), foo)
Traceback (most recent call last):
 File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
TypeError: locals must be a mapping
>>> exec '__doc__ = __doc__ + "extra"' in foo
Traceback (most recent call last):
 File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
TypeError: exec: arg 2 must be a dictionary or None

Note that if I use a real dict, I get the correct result:
>>> d=dict(__doc__ = 'docstring')
>>> exec '__doc__ = __doc__ + "extra"' in d
>>> d['__doc__']
'docstringextra'

If and when you can make the above work, then come back and re-visit
your idea. Better yet, play around a bit and figure out _why_ they
don't work - it's a good learning exercise.

Anthony


From c0dec at gmx.de  Wed Aug 25 11:44:47 2004
From: c0dec at gmx.de (Henning Kage)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:44:47 +0200
Subject: Compiling a custom python library
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.25.15.44.46.760459@gmx.de>

I'm writing a small Python library with some generic classes and
interfaces, that can be used within other Python projects in our company.
Would it be a better solution to compile this library into a Python DLL
(and if so, how can it be done) or to distribute the "raw" sourcecode of
these classes etc.? What would be the best solution, so that other
programmers can easily integrate this library into their own programs?


From eric_brunel at despammed.com  Tue Aug 31 09:50:47 2004
From: eric_brunel at despammed.com (Eric Brunel)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 15:50:47 +0200
Subject: has_method (solution found)
References: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C78AD@escpl.tcp.com.ar>	<41347BC1.5020407@geochemsource.com>
	<mailman.2669.1093958907.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ch1v8m$pkp$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>

Gandalf wrote:
> 
> Somebody sent me a private e-mail.
> It must be common for such silly questions that would just spam the 
> list. :-)
> I'll write down the final solution anyway.
> 
> 
> def getmethod(name):
>    methodList = [e for e in dir(self) if callable(getattr(self, e))]
>    if name in methodList:
>       return getattr(self,name)
>    else:
>       return None

And why not:

def getmethod(obj, name):
   meth = getattr(obj, name)
   if callable(meth):
     return meth
   else:
     return None

???

Why do you use a list comprehension to get the names of all methods on the object?
In addition, it won't work for class instances:

 >>> class C:
...   def m(self):
...     print 'spam'
...
 >>>
 >>> o = C()
 >>> dir(o)
[]

But:

 >>> getattr(o, 'm')
<method C.m of C instance at 0x821433c>

HTH
-- 
- Eric Brunel <eric (underscore) brunel (at) despammed (dot) com> -
PragmaDev : Real Time Software Development Tools - http://www.pragmadev.com



From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 11:19:25 2004
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 08:19:25 -0700
Subject: .idlerec
Message-ID: <6f402501.0408110719.4995fe12@posting.google.com>

What environment variable does Python use to determine where to say
.idelrec on windows XP ?

Fuzzy

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html


From mauriceling at acm.org  Tue Aug  3 20:01:25 2004
From: mauriceling at acm.org (Maurice LING)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 00:01:25 GMT
Subject: Call for Grant Proposals
In-Reply-To: <ceo5av$6qi$1@panix3.panix.com>
References: <40fcaa90$0$27091$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<410ED411.7090907@acm.org>
	<mailman.1074.1091491856.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<410ef314$1@news.unimelb.edu.au> <ceo5av$6qi$1@panix3.panix.com>
Message-ID: <41102750$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>

Thank you for you help. Please see inserts below.

Aahz wrote:

> Speaking as a PSF member who is or has been on some of the operating
> committees, but not a member of the PSF board or the grant committee:
> 
> In article <410ef314$1 at news.unimelb.edu.au>,
> Maurice LING  <mauriceling at acm.org> wrote:
> 
>>2. Will there be any form of intellectual property claims, including, 
>>copyrights, trade marks, patents, on any form of work generated from the 
>>PSF Grant by the Python Software Foundation (PSF) or any of its 
>>associates? If so, what are the precise nature of it? This is important 
>>as it may injure the research work and subsequently, the resultant 
>>thesis and publications directing towards the award of my degree.
> 
> 
> There will be no claims by the PSF itself unless you assign your work;
> that follows more-or-less from choosing projects that are are Open
> Source.

Thanks. Quite obviously I cannot do something that will not count 
towards my degree at this stage.

> 
> 
>>3. On the website (http://www.python.org/psf/call-2004.html), it is 
>>stated that the project of which the grant is granted for must be 
>>completed by October 30, 2005. In event of failure to meet, what will be 
>>the penalities?
>>
>>4. From Question 3, what constitutes partial failure or complete failure 
>>of the project?
> 
> 
> We don't know.  We're feeling our way into this.  I suspect people would
> rather take a wait-and-see attitude until we actually have to deal with
> these issues.
> 
This is by itself a tricky issue. But as with all projects, a majority 
of them don't end up as expected, otherwise, the world would have stop 
our dependency on fossil fuels years ago. Is there any general 
guidelines yet?

> 
>>5. From Question 4, it is stated on the website 
>>(http://www.python.org/psf/call-2004.html) that a delivery plan is 
>>essential in the proposal. How will delay in delivery affect the payment 
>>plan and the grant on the whole?
> 
> 
> We're talking about US$40K in grants total; I expect that grants will
> simply be issued up-front for the most part.  (The PSF's total monetary
> resources right now are around US$115K.)  I'd expect that if a grant
> proposal ties payments to delivery targets, the penalty for missing
> delivery will be delay of the next grant payment.
> 
> We're putting a certain amount of formalism into this because we have
> to; however, you'll be much better off if you think of this as "Python
> community money" that's being spread around to grease projects that are
> having trouble getting traction.  There are basically two and only two
> criteria that really matter:
> 
> * Will this project benefit a large portion of the Python community?
> 
> * Will giving money to this project move it forward?
> 
> Instead of asking general questions like this, why don't you simply tell
> us what your proposal is, and we'll help you refine it before you send
> it in to the grant committee?

I do wish I can put down my proposal now but I'm unable to do so due to 
NDAs. Especially when this forum is public. That is why I can only state 
my problems very generally and the only time I can disclose it in 
entirety is in the proposal itself.

Thanks for your help.

Cheers
Maurice
-- 
Maurice Han Tong LING, BSc(Hons)(Biochem), AdvDipComp, SN


From paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it  Thu Aug 26 12:24:02 2004
From: paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it (Paolo Veronelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 18:24:02 +0200
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed204082604056ec45a47@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>
	<e69d3ed204082604056ec45a47@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <412E0EA2.7090703@yahoo.it>



Anthony Baxter wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:28:14 +0200, Paolo Veronelli
> <paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it> wrote:
> 
>>It's not the ideas complexity that fears,but the feeling we are trying
>>to bring down to earth the supposed magic of some language solutions.
>>There is nothing good in magic,specially when you have to build robust
>>things on it.
> 
> 
> I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that the
> approach of double-under variables inside a function having some new
> meaning, getting put into a new scope that did not previously exist,
> is somehow _less_ magical that the syntactic sugar of decorators? 

I would like to erase magic from code and have some kind of 
specification for the double-under variables.
if __metaclass__ is not a keyword I suppose it's a reference 
but.....this is not enough:assigning it is a meta-coding action.
So let's classify these actions and see what kind of meta-coding 
decorators are .
This should be done before the creation of a new syntax,a good syntax 
for all meta-coding.


> so, how do you intend to handle the backwards compatibility issue,
> where code that works on Python2.4 will do something entirely
> different on Python2.3 (the double-under variables will be silently
> ignored).

This is not a problem for me.If it's the case I don't really care of 
zoombies,I'm a researcher not a politician,
I'm trying to develope a thought around a pragmatic good language,and 
possibly evolve my knowledge of it.
Next generation will measure better our efforts.

> Do you intend that the double-under names would also be
> looked for in the same scopes? That is, what will this code do?
> 
> def foo():
>     __name__ = '%s_banana'%(__name__) 
> 
Has it anything to do with our talking?Sharp features are sharp.If 
somebody want to obfuscate code he can do it,he is free of playing this 
game.

>>If this blows away clouds on the language future and bring back the
>>useful features in a wider theory where metaclasses and decorators are
>>members of,this shouldn't be considered a hack.If it becomes a hack the
>>problem is to be searched and solved above generalizing the scope system.
> 
> 
> Hand waving is all well and good, but this isn't a matter of
> "generalizing the scope system". This is a _radical_ change to the
> scoping rules of Python, and I think it's safe to say that there's
> *absolutely* *no* *way* something like this would be considered,
> without an excellent reason - and bolting some sort of strange
> decorator semantics doesn't cut it.

We can use decorators issue to see how   python successors will kill it 
in the long term or how the python will be
after changing skin.
In my enfant views knowledge is fractal and a the three scoping rules is 
hiding patterns which will be seen with the right lens.
Possibly we can learn form other languages approches to the same 
problems but no way I matter to be considered from the higher spheres,I 
am a farmer taking some notes on how  the plant is growing.

		Paolino




From spam_me_gently_with_a_chainsaw at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  2 11:20:49 2004
From: spam_me_gently_with_a_chainsaw at yahoo.com (Double Dumbass on You)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 08:20:49 -0700
Subject: Trimming a string
Message-ID: <10gsmuieo65du5d@news.supernews.com>

I have a string that is 7 characters and represents file mode in UNIX/LINUX
from rpm:

0100755

I don't care about the 0100 portion, I am only interested in the file
permissions portion which is 755.  How can I get three characters from the
string starting at the right?  ( -OR- strip 4 characters from the left? )




From 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de  Thu Aug 19 03:21:08 2004
From: 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de (510046470588-0001 at t-online.de)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 09:21:08 +0200
Subject: Embedding Python in Python
References: <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
Message-ID: <873c2j8ufv.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>

Robey Holderith <robey at slash_dev_slash_random.org> writes:

> Anyone know a good way to embed python within python?
> 
> Now before you tell me that's silly, let me explain
> what I'd like to do.
> 
> I'd like to allow user-defined scriptable objects.  I'd
> like to give them access to modify pieces of my classes.
> I'd like to disallow access to pretty much the rest of
> the modules.
> 
> Any ideas/examples?

use the rexec module, or see how Zope does it


Klaus Schilling


From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Aug  6 15:15:43 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 21:15:43 +0200
Subject: PEP 263 status check
In-Reply-To: <10h724r20kkeqb2@news.supernews.com>
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com> <4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de>
	<10h5hgvpafm8a64@news.supernews.com> <41133C76.8040302@v.loewis.de>
	<10h6rklt3fa1690@news.supernews.com> <41137799.70808@v.loewis.de>
	<10h724r20kkeqb2@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <4113D8DF.8080106@v.loewis.de>

John Roth wrote:
>>What would you expect instead? Do you think your expectation
>>is implementable?
> 
> 
> I'd expect that the compiler would reject anything that
> wasn't either in the 7-bit ascii subset, or else defined
> with a hex escape.

Are we still talking about PEP 263 here? If the entire source
code has to be in the 7-bit ASCII subset, then what is the point
of encoding declarations?

If you were suggesting that anything except Unicode literals
should be in the 7-bit ASCII subset, then this is still
unacceptable: Comments should also be allowed to contain non-ASCII
characters, don't you agree?

If you think that only Unicode literals and comments should be
allowed to contain non-ASCII, I disagree: At some point, I'd
like to propose support for non-ASCII in identifiers. This would
allow people to make identifiers that represent words from their
native language, which is helpful for people who don't speak
English well.

If you think that only Unicod literals, comments, and identifiers
should be allowed non-ASCII: perhaps, but this is out of scope
of PEP 263, which *only* introduces encoding declarations,
and explains what they mean for all current constructs.

> The reason for this is simply that wanting to put characters
> outside of the 7-bit ascii subset into a byte character string
> isn't portable. 

Define "is portable". With an encoding declaration, I can move
the source code from one machine to another, open it in an editor,
and have it display correctly. This was not portable without
encoding declarations (likewise for comments); with PEP 263,
such source code became portable.

Also, the run-time behaviour is fully predictable (which it
even was without PEP 263): At run-time, the string will have
exactly the same bytes that it does in the .py file. This
is fully portable.

> It just pushes the need for a character set
> (encoding) declaration down one level of recursion.

It depends on the program. E.g. if the program was to generate
HTML files with an explicit HTTP-Equiv charset=iso-8859-1,
then the resulting program is absolutely, 100% portable.

For messages directly output to a terminal, portability
might not be important.

> There's already a way of doing this: use a unicode string,
> so it's not like we need two ways of doing it.

Using a Unicode string might not work, because a library might
crash when confronted with a Unicode string. You are proposing
to break existing applications for no good reason, and with
no simple fix.

> Now I will grant you that there is a need for representing
> the utf-8 encoding in a character string, but do we need
> to support that in the source text when it's much more
> likely that it's a programming mistake?

But it isn't! People do put KOI-8R into source code, into
string literals, and it works perfectly fine for them. There
is no reason to arbitrarily break their code.

> As far as implementation goes, it should have been done
> at the beginning. Prior to 2.3, there was no way of writing
> a program using the utf-8 encoding (I think - I might be
> wrong on that)

You are wrong. You were always able to put UTF-8 into byte
strings, even at a time where UTF-8 was not yet an RFC
(say, in Python 1.1).

> so there were no programs out there that
> put non-ascii subset characters into byte strings.

That is just not true. If it were true, there would be no
need to introduce a grace period in the PEP. However,
*many* scripts in the world use non-ASCII in string literals;
it was always possible (although the documentation was
wishy-washy on what it actually meant).

> Today it's one more forward migration hurdle to jump over.
> I don't think it's a particularly large one, but I don't have
> any real world data at hand.

Trust me: the outcry for banning non-ASCII from string literals
would be, by far, louder than the one for a proposed syntax
on decorators. That would break many production systems, CGI
scripts would suddenly stop working, GUIs would crash, etc.

Regards,
Martin


From alanmk at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 21 11:30:30 2004
From: alanmk at hotmail.com (Alan Kennedy)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:30:30 +0100
Subject: file access in jythonc
In-Reply-To: <9eabe547.0408210611.d5e54f7@posting.google.com>
References: <9eabe547.0408210611.d5e54f7@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <MQJVc.25394$Z14.7905@news.indigo.ie>

[John Howard]
> I have the following in a jythonc program to be executed in a html
> file.
> 
> f1 = open("filename","r")
> 
> I get message about filePermission read error. Program compiles and
> jar file is created. Just the html code gives message.
> 
> Any ideas?

I am presuming that when you say "executed in a html file" you mean that 
this code is to be embedded in a rendered html page as displayed in a 
browser, such as mozilla or ie, which means that your code is an 
"applet", and thus allowed to execute only in the "applet sandbox" 
inside that browser. Which significantly restricts the access rights of 
the applet to access system resources such as local files, for a range 
of very good security reasons, described here

http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/applet/overview/security.html
http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/security1.2/overview/

You can approach the problem by

1. Digitally signing your applet or jar file.
http://www.jguru.com/faq/view.jsp?EID=11475

2. Configuring the your browser to permit file access to local files 
(potentially opening a massive security hole in your browser).
http://www.developer.com/java/ent/article.php/630621

HTH,

-- 
alan kennedy
------------------------------------------------------
email alan:              http://xhaus.com/contact/alan


From ressler at cheetah.jpl.nasa.gov  Wed Aug  4 19:21:37 2004
From: ressler at cheetah.jpl.nasa.gov (Michael Ressler)
Date: 4 Aug 2004 23:21:37 GMT
Subject: Decorator syntax (was Re: PEP 318 - PyFIT comments)
References: <mailman.1162.1091660561.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnch2rs1.6ei.ressler@cheetah.jpl.nasa.gov>

On 2004-08-04, Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy) <tdelaney at avaya.com> wrote:
> Christopher T King wrote:
>
>> On 4 Aug 2004, Nick Vargish wrote:
>> 
>>> I just don't know where else to voice my opinion on this matter, but
>>> I absolutely hate the new decorator syntax.
>
> @classmethod
> def func (args):
>     @attr = 1
>     pass

I'm just a dumb user of Python - I don't even program for a living, so
there is no reason any of you should listen to me, but this @-syntax
thing makes Python look like Perl. The reason I learned Python was that
Perl looks like line noise to me, and I wanted a scripting language I
could read. Please don't wreck a beautiful, readable language with this
shortcut. Choose a word for it, not a symbol, please.

Mike


From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 03:01:30 2004
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 00:01:30 -0700
Subject: .idlerec
References: <6f402501.0408110719.4995fe12@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <6f402501.0408112239.4c68234a@posting.google.com>

fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord) wrote in message news:<6f402501.0408110719.4995fe12 at posting.google.com>...
> What environment variable does Python use to determine where to say
> .idelrec on windows XP ?
> 
> Fuzzy
> 
> http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html

Oops.. that should be 'save' .idlerec (the directory).

I have two XP machines. One saves it in my 'documents and settings'
folder (where I want it) and the other saves it wherever it damn well
feels like........

Regards,

Fuzzy

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html


From peter at engcorp.com  Wed Aug  4 08:05:16 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 08:05:16 -0400
Subject: Crypto.PublicKey.RSA.error: Plaintext too large
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1111.1091586776.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1094.1091546280.5135.python-list@python.org>	<HZmdndW9gsV8L5LcRVn-rg@powergate.ca>	<mailman.1103.1091572142.5135.python-list@python.org>	<CuCdnUpgaY4vhI3cRVn-sA@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1111.1091586776.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <g5adnbcQmY5jTY3cRVn-iQ@powergate.ca>

Ajay Brar wrote:

> the documentation says verify should return true or false. it will 
> generate an error if plaintext is too large - which is not helping me much
> i have pinned the problem down to the signature itself and the way i am 
> downloading it.
> what i do is when a user clicks on a signature link, i calculate the 
> signature on the fly and then do
> print "Content-type: application\n"
> print signature
> i am using content-type application to force explorer to give the 
> download dalog box (the application i am building will later be ported 
> to a pocket pc). Microsoft on their website said to put the header 
> "Content-disposition: attachment;filename=blah" to force dowload, but 
> that didn't work - i am yet to find out what i am doing wrong?
> so any ideas on how i send the signature across and make the user 
> download it?

Internet Explorer is, of course, broken.  The only guaranteed
solution of which I'm aware to the problem that it sounds like
you are describing (IE refusing to download a file in the right
way or to save it as right type) is to set the file extension
to something that it recognizes as requiring a download.  For
example, if you use a file extension of .txt on something, it
will generally not try to download it automatically.  Same for
other things that it recognizes.  Setting the extension to
.exe would presumably force the same behaviour as using content
type "application".  Leaving the extension off might also work,
though I haven't tried that.

Or I might be interpreting what you are saying incorrectly.

-Peter


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Wed Aug 11 09:26:56 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:26:56 -0500
Subject: loading message thingy
References: <cfcndl$28em$1@otis.netspace.net.au>
Message-ID: <WcWdnft_UfUPg4fcRVn-hQ@comcast.com>

Hope this code might help or at least point
you in the correct direction.

Regards,
Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.
Title: Console (text) progress indicator class



Description:

I was finding that I needed a progress indicator for Linux and Windows
console applications that could be used to show the user that work was
progressing and how much of the total work that had been completed. I
finally broke down and wrote this class that seems to do exactly what I
wanted. Since I continue to see questions about how to write such a class on
Comp.Lang.Python, I thought I'd donate it to this Cookbook archive.

Source:

Note: Your final code will have syntax highlighting

# CLASS NAME: DLLInterface
#
# Author: Larry Bates (lbates at syscononline.com)
#
# Written: 12/09/2002
#
# Released under: GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE
#
#
class progressbarClass:
    def __init__(self, finalcount, progresschar=None):
        import sys
        self.finalcount=finalcount
        self.blockcount=0
        #
        # See if caller passed me a character to use on the
        # progress bar (like "*").  If not use the block
        # character that makes it look like a real progress
        # bar.
        #
        if not progresschar: self.block=chr(178)
        else:                self.block=progresschar
        #
        # Get pointer to sys.stdout so I can use the write/flush
        # methods to display the progress bar.
        #
        self.f=sys.stdout
        #
        # If the final count is zero, don't start the progress gauge
        #
        if not self.finalcount : return
        self.f.write('\n------------------ %
Progress -------------------1\n')
        self.f.write('    1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9    0\n')
        self.f.write('----0----0----0----0----0----0----0----0----0----0\n')
        return

    def progress(self, count):
        #
        # Make sure I don't try to go off the end (e.g. >100%)
        #
        count=min(count, self.finalcount)
        #
        # If finalcount is zero, I'm done
        #
        if self.finalcount:
            percentcomplete=int(round(100*count/self.finalcount))
            if percentcomplete < 1: percentcomplete=1
        else:
            percentcomplete=100

        #print "percentcomplete=",percentcomplete
        blockcount=int(percentcomplete/2)
        #print "blockcount=",blockcount
        if blockcount > self.blockcount:
            for i in range(self.blockcount,blockcount):
                self.f.write(self.block)
                self.f.flush()

        if percentcomplete == 100: self.f.write("\n")
        self.blockcount=blockcount
        return

if __name__ == "__main__":
    from time import sleep
    pb=progressbarClass(8,"*")
    count=0
    while count<9:
        count+=1
        pb.progress(count)
        sleep(0.2)

    pb=progressbarClass(100)
    pb.progress(20)
    sleep(0.2)
    pb.progress(47)
    sleep(0.2)
    pb.progress(90)
    sleep(0.2)
    pb.progress(100)
    print "testing 1:"
    pb=progressbarClass(1)
    pb.progress(1)





Discussion:

Programs that run (FTP downloads, database insertions, etc.) sometimes
require visual feedback to the user as to the progress of the task that is
running. This progress bar class provides an easy to implement way of
showing the percentage of completion that is updated periodically by the
program.

"Robbie" <user at domain.invalid> wrote in message
news:cfcndl$28em$1 at otis.netspace.net.au...
> Even though this is not very important it would be nice to get working.
>
> Basically all I want to do is continuously write to the same line.
> So I could have a little rotating text thing showing that the script is
> working or display data ie, kb downloaded so far...
>
> ATM I am just calling a clear screen every pass with a little nap, nasty.
>
> Something along these lines:
> for i in range(1000):
>       print "Loading... %s" % file_size
>       os.system("clear")
>       sleep(0.5)
> I also tried something with \r but that never quite worked...
> Also it would be nice to be able to change more than one line so I could
> have 4 threads open downloading something with 4 lines each stating the
> current status of each thread...
>




From artur_spruce at yahoo.com  Thu Aug  5 07:10:08 2004
From: artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR)
Date: 5 Aug 2004 04:10:08 -0700
Subject: Decorator syntax
References: <mailman.1173.1091670172.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<38ednYT1NLz1P4zcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
	<JEiQc.16955$_25.574@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <b840abf4.0408050310.6d5285ab@posting.google.com>

"Paul McGuire" <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> wrote in message news:<JEiQc.16955$_25.574 at fe2.texas.rr.com>...
> "Peter Hansen" <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message
> news:38ednYT1NLz1P4zcRVn-uA at powergate.ca...
> <snip>
> > For the record, the @ syntax is despicable and horribly
> > un-Pythonic, IMHO, and I really hope never to read code that
> > uses it. :-(
> >
> > (And my preferred syntax was "def f() [classmethod]:", FWIW)
> >
> 
> Agreed.  And I also like your preferred syntax - clear, readable, no
> eye-jarring symbols.

That's what I think too. If there has to be a decorator syntax (other
than present "f = decor(f)" rebinding, which makes the process of
decorating as explicit as it gets), that's the one to go.

Effbot's expression of horror at the @ syntax was no surprise to me,
although sudden appearance of the latter was. I read somewhere that
the BDFL allowed this patch because he was tired with the long,
never-ending discussion. I have this conspiracy theory that he did so
to stirr the community and finally get some clear response on what's
best. Which might be a risky but good move.

Which made me think: I'd rather know when I'm losing perspective (and
be able to remedy that) than just try not to lose it.

AdSR


From gilles.lenfant at nospam.com  Fri Aug 20 14:41:16 2004
From: gilles.lenfant at nospam.com (Gilles Lenfant)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:41:16 +0200
Subject: python cgi speedup on iis
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1972.1092933903.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1972.1092933903.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <412648fc$0$18622$626a14ce@news.free.fr>

Charlie Taylor a ?crit :

> I'm looking for advice on how to speed up python cgi on Windows IIS without
> going to an application server like Zope/WebWare/CherryPy/etc (i.e. I have
> existing cgi scripts).
> 
> mod_python seems like a good solution for Apache, is there something
> comparable for IIS?
> 
> I notice that ASP scripts run an asp.dll which I believe becomes memory
> resident to speed up VBScript execution.
> 
> Is there any work on a python.dll anywhere?
> 
> Thanks,
> ct
> 

Use the excellent pywin32

http://sourceforge.net/projects/pywin32

Look at the help in the "ASP and Python" section that shows how to 
register Python as ASP engine. You can the build ASP pages like this...

<%@ language =Python%>
<html>
<head>
<%Response.Redirect("test.html")%>
</head>
</html>


From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Aug  6 16:17:25 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 22:17:25 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
In-Reply-To: <HBF.20040806rjgh@bombur.uio.no>
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no> <4112AC7B.1060508@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806egka@bombur.uio.no> <411343D7.3020604@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806c08y@bombur.uio.no> <411353A3.8090502@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806beaz@bombur.uio.no> <4113759E.2070405@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806rjgh@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <4113E755.8060205@v.loewis.de>

Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
> That sounds like it could have a severe performance impact.  However,
> maybe the compiler can set a flag if there are any such strings when it
> converts parsed strings from Unicode back to the file's encoding.  

Yes. Unfortunately, line information is gone by that time, so you can't
point to the place of the error anymore.

> I can't say I like the idea, though.  It assumes Python retains the
> internal implementations of 'coding:' which is described in PEP 263:
> Convert the source code to Unicode, then convert string literals back
> to the source character set.

It's a pretty safe assumption, though. It is the only reasonable
implementation strategy.

>>Notice that your approach only works for languages with single-byte
>>character sets anyway. Many multi-byte character sets use only
>>bytes < 128, and still they should get the warning you want to produce.
> 
> 
> They will.  That's why I specified to do this after conversion to
> Unicode.  But I notice my spec was unclear about that point.

Ah, ok.

> None of this properly addresses encodings that are not ASCII supersets
> (or subsets), like EBCDIC.  Both Python and many Python programs seem to
> make the assumption that the character set is ASCII-based, so plain
> strings (with type str) can be output without conversion, while Unicode
> strings must be converted to the output device's character set.

Yes, Python assumes ASCII. There are is some code for EBCDIC support,
but on those platforms, Unicode is not supported.

> Sure.  I wasn't protesting against people using of escape sequences.
> I was protesting against requiring that people use them.

But isn't that the idea of the str7bit feature? How else would you
put non-ASCII bytes into a string literal while simultaneously turning
on the 7-bit feature?

Regards,
Martin


From evandro at async.com.br  Thu Aug 26 10:12:02 2004
From: evandro at async.com.br (Evandro Vale Miquelito)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:12:02 -0300 (BRST)
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <411e4639.0408250735.2fff48bd@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408261111200.659-100000@minastirith.async.com.br>

I'm 23.

******************************
*   Evandro Vale Miquelito   *
*    evandro at async.com.br    *
******************************

On 25 Aug 2004, Brian Almond wrote:

> "Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<jQHUc.1529$2L3.505 at newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> > One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> > Python programmer??
>
> 31 here.  I started experimenting with code when I was pretty young.
> Started out on my father's IMSAI 8080 (which moved into my room when
> we got our first IBM PC :).  Python got my attention around the time
> the DDJ issue came out with Guido & Larry Wall on the cover.
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>



From M.Waack at gmx.de  Mon Aug 16 16:13:37 2004
From: M.Waack at gmx.de (Mathias Waack)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 22:13:37 +0200
Subject: Simple exceptions question
References: <f8097096.0408161106.6292244f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <h4h7v1-mk8.ln1@valpo.de>

Nick Jacobson wrote:

> Say I have a function foo that throws an IndexError exception, and
> I want to handle it:
> 
> def foo(a, b, c):
>     print a[10], b[10], c[10] #, etc.
> 
> def main():
>     #define vars
>     try:
>         foo(a, b, c)
>     except IndexError:
>         print "Accessed array ", x, " out of bounds!" #???
> 
> When the exception is thrown, I don't know what triggered it!  a,
> b, or c?

There is IMHO no (at least no obvious) way to find it out. The
"print" is a single statement - an atom from the point of view of
the python interpreter. Its easy to find out, which statement caused
the exception. But its impossible to find out which "part" of one
single statement caused an exception. 

And btw what value should "x" have? An object in python has no name. 

> I could put a series of if statements in the except clause, but
> that
> defeats the whole purpose of having the exception, right?  Is there
> a better way?

Yes: create your own list class (maybe by inheriting list). Give each
instance an unique name. Use a setitem method like this: 

class seq(list):
  # some code suppressed...
  def __getitem__(self,index):
    try: list.__getitem__(self,index)
    except IndexError,e:
      e.index = index
      e.name = self.name
      raise e

Thus you can write the except clause as:

  except IndexError, e:
    print "Accessed?array?", e.name, "?out?of?bounds at", e.index 

Mathias


From stefan at eischet.com  Fri Aug 13 12:32:45 2004
From: stefan at eischet.com (Stefan Eischet)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 18:32:45 +0200
Subject: [OT] Keyboard layout, was Re: PEP318
In-Reply-To: <m3y8kjmfli.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cffdba$ko0$04$1@news.t-online.com>
	<Y+l*oRTrq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
	<roy-439B02.10321912082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<L-C*RvUrq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
	<m3y8kjmfli.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <67C5E9C3-ED46-11D8-899A-000A95857E5C@eischet.com>


On 13.08.2004, at 13:39, Michael Hudson wrote:

> Sion Arrowsmith <siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
>
>> Roy Smith  <roy at panix.com> wrote:
>>> Sion Arrowsmith <siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> As someone who's just started using a Mac for the first time(*),
>>>> I'd like to add that it's not always plain-sailing on an English
>>>> keyboard.
>>> What's wrong with Mac keyboards?
>>
>> No @, hence tangential relevance to PEP318 (and a point against
>> pies, before or after the def). Unless you can remember it's on
>> option-3.
>
> Huh?  On *my* mac <wink> @ is shift-2 and # is option-3.  And I live
> with the latter, and I type it far more often than anyone is ever
> going to type @ for decorators...

My german iBook uses ALT-L for @, which by itself is not a very big 
problem. But as an added bonus, the german PC keyboard puts @ at 
ALTGR+Q (right alt key), which directly translates into APPLE-Q. You 
know, like in "Quit".
Common exclamation: "I just want to type an email address. Where is the 
program gone?!"
(This means that if I use my usual PC-worker's keypress to type @, it 
should kill IDLE. Considering how I like the decorator syntax, this 
might actually be a feature... ;-) )

// stefan at eischet.com //



From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 14 08:15:43 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:15:43 -0400
Subject: AntiDecorator metaclass
In-Reply-To: <411dfe05$0$6142$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
References: <mailman.1640.1092453732.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<411dfe05$0$6142$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <cfkvpf$iue$1@sea.gmane.org>

Christophe Cavalaria wrote:

> Paul Morrow wrote:
> 
> 
>>One of the beautiful things about Python is its clear, minimal syntax.
>>So we must resist adding new syntax to the language, especially where
>>there is a reasonable alternative.
>>
>>I believe that Stefen Eischet's suggestion for automatically determining
>>a method's type (class/instance/static) from the name of its first
>>formal parameter is a reasonable alternative to any/all of the decorator
>>syntax proposals.
> 
> 
> Here is another one that forgot that decorators aren't limited to
> classmethod and staticmethod. Therefore, that proposal alone isn't an
> alternative to any other syntax.
> 
> If you want to say that decorators should be limited to classmethod and
> staticmethod, say it and give us a good reason, a very very good reason.

No I don't want to say that.  I want to say that decorators should keep 
their nose out of the classmethod/staticmethod business.  There's a 
perfectly good *no-extra-syntax-required* way to do that, thru the 
leveraging of conventions that most developers use already (give or take 
the spelling of the class parameter).  The code remains readable, 
intuitive, obvious, unintimidating.  And it makes the problem space that 
decorators address smaller (as it becomes everything you want decorators 
to do minus the classmethod/staticmethod stuff), which might give rise 
to a better, less objectionable solution.



From zanesdad at bellsouth.net  Wed Aug 25 12:24:01 2004
From: zanesdad at bellsouth.net (Jeremy Jones)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:24:01 -0400
Subject: Regular Expressions
In-Reply-To: <808f000f.0408250802.8c303ea@posting.google.com>
References: <808f000f.0408250802.8c303ea@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <412CBD21.90306@bellsouth.net>

Oriana wrote:

>hi!
>
>   I've been working with Python for about two months now but I just
>started learning about regular expressions.
>   My question is the following. I have a source file that contains
>code and comments. A piece of the comments contains a revision history
>that I would like to erase completely from the file since I never
>update it and I don't use it anymore. The file looks something like
>
>/****************************************
>* Some info
>*
>* More info 
>*
>*----------------------------------------
>*
>* Revision History:
>*
>* blah
>* blah
>* blah
>*
>*----------------------------------------
>
>
>I would like to write some sort of regular expression to replace all
>the text from the first dotted line up to the first asterisk that it's
>followed either by another asterisk or by another *----
>line.....please help, I don't know where to start!!!
>  
>
On this particular problem, you might be better served to not use 
regexes to match the whole thing.  The way that I would go about it 
(this is obviously not the only answer, but it'll work) is to read in 
the file line by line and rely on state variables to let you know when 
to write out and when not to write out your current line.  This is kinda 
sketchy, but you get the idea.  HTH


Jeremy


From Moiz.Golawala at ge.com  Tue Aug 17 14:43:01 2004
From: Moiz.Golawala at ge.com (Golawala, Moiz M (GE Infrastructure))
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:43:01 -0500
Subject: is it possible to create an object by its name in the run time
Message-ID: <4BF8D93CF6F73F4890EB6ED8009ECE191C5D03@FTWMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com>

to find all builtins try  dir(__builtins__)

to get all functions in the modules try dir(moduleName)
to get all the modules that you imported just type dir()
to get all the methods in the class type dir(className)

hope this helps.

Moiz Golawala
GE Infrastructure, Security
Software Engineer
Enterprise Solutions

T 561 994 5972
F 561 994 6572
E moiz.golawala at ge.com 
www.gesecurity.com

791 Park of Commerce Blvd., Suite 100
Boca Raton, FL, 33487, U.S.A.
GE Security, Inc.


-----Original Message-----
From: python-list-bounces+moiz.golawala=ge.com at python.org [mailto:python-list-bounces+moiz.golawala=ge.com at python.org]On Behalf Of Yang Zhang
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 2:38 PM
To: python-list at python.org
Subject: is it possible to create an object by its name in the run time


 Hi all,
        I wonder if it is possible to create an object of func, class or
 method in the run time by it's name? To make it more clear, let me show
 you an example: I parsed the python code and found a function with name
'len'.
 I want to know if it is a build-in func(where can I look up?). If so,
ignore
 it otherwise I want to find out which module is it defined in. All I know
 is the name (which is a string), and all the modules that this program have
 imported. In the same way, I also need to process the class and methods
 call. I wonder if it is possible? I will appreciate your help very much!!

-Ryan
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 16 13:17:42 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:17:42 -0400
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed204081608247149972d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20040814153534.8AC171E4007@bag.python.org>	<D65D4928-EEBF-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>	<mailman.1687.1092584144.5135.python-list@python.org>	<frydnbvSiJeXF4LcRVn-oA@giganews.com>	<cfo7cg$k7p$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204081522014bb9c988@mail.gmail.com>	<cfq1p1$bde$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed204081608247149972d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cfqq7l$a9p$1@sea.gmane.org>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 06:20:18 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>>Python currently doesn't _care_ about the argument list, and the variable
>>>names in it.
>>>
>>
>>One thought is, to preserve backwards compatability, this special
>>behavior would only be invoked for subclasses of the new Object class.
> 
> 
> How is this backwards compatible? If you'd introduced it at the same time
> as object, _maybe_ you could argue that. But this isn't the case here.
> 
> 

It's backwards compatible in the sense that existing code doesn't break, 
as it isn't derived from the new Object class (capital 'O') that 
enforces the conventions.

>>>Adding this sort of behaviour is nasty. How, for instance, would you handle
>>>adding a method to a class at runtime? Do you poke into the newly added
>>>method to make sure you get it right? Do you not do this?
>>
>>Same rules apply.  The Python system would dynamically determine the
>>method's type when you add it (at runtime), so you'd need to make sure
>>that the first parm name is correct in advance.
> 
> 
> Really. And how would you implement this special casing in a way that
> wasn't incredibly tricky to explain to users running across it? 

I'm not quite sure what you mean here.  It would be easy to document the 
difference between static, class, and instance methods, and how to 
declare each.  "To declare an instance method, use 'self' as the first 
param", etc...


> One of the
> great things about Python is that if you need to, or you want to, you can
> poke into the innards of the OO system and see how it works (particularly
> since descriptors were added). This adds Perl-like levels of OO-hackery.
> If that comment is unclear, I mean that when you poke into Perl's OO,
> it becomes very clear, very quickly, that it's a hack.
> 

I don't see what you're talking about here either.  You'd still be able 
to see the innards.  Poke away.  The methods will look as though you had 
explicitly declared them.


>>>What about for more complex decorators? Remember, staticmethod and
>>>classmethod are the trivial cases that this feature addresses. How do you
>>>handle the more complex ones?
>>
>>The point is that method type declarations are not needed, so decorators
>>wouldn't be concerned with this.  Take them off the list of things
>>decorators can do.
> 
> 
> Huh? You proposed a hack to specify class and static methods, using a 
> custom meta-class that pokes at the argument list of a function, and 
> suddenly you've removed the need for decorators for this? 

Well, Yes.  That's right (although the metaclass I wrote isn't finished 
by any means, nor am I even sure that we can do everything from a 
metaclass).  Why have another way to do it?  So that we can appease the 
static typing folks?  We don't like unnecessary static typing, remember?


> Please - feel 
> free to use your metaclass in your own code, but  don't think that this is 
> in any way a solution that should be considered for "mainstream" python 
> use. It's a hack - a neat hack and a nice example of some of the things
> metaclasses can do[1], but it's not a valid "solution" for the problem that
> decorators are meant to solve. Look, staticmethod and classmethod are
> a tiny tiny fraction of the things that decorator will be used for. Looking 
> at a large amount of Python code I've got here, I can see three examples
> of classmethods (all alternate constructors) and no uses of staticmethod
> at all.
> 
> Anthony
> 
> ([1] and, I should note, one I was about to post until I saw your post <wink>)

Well good, then you shouldn't mind if we restrict decorators to those 
things that you do have lots of examples of. :-)

Q: What if I had a metaclass that would make any method private whose 
name started with two underbars (by, I dunno, mangling the name 
somehow)?  Would you consider that a hack too? ;-)



From martin at v.loewis.de  Mon Aug 16 01:57:34 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 07:57:34 +0200
Subject: undefined symbol: PyUnicodeUCS4_FromUnicode
In-Reply-To: <bQPTc.3470$ni.3263@okepread01>
References: <MgVSc.316$ni.147@okepread01>
	<411c5b24$0$26992$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<bQPTc.3470$ni.3263@okepread01>
Message-ID: <41204CCE.2090700@v.loewis.de>

Bill Hodges wrote:
> Your dianosis is correct.
> I compiled tcl to include UCS4 and
> Python then compiled to UCS4
> (nm revealed the difference).

Are you sure about that? Are you absolutely certain that
the installed Python (/usr/local/bin/python2.3) is UCS-4?
It appears to me that it is likely UCS-2.

> PyQt compiled fine, However, it
> still errors out the same way.
> For some reason PyQt needs to be told to
> include the UCS4 stuff in qt.so na d
> I cannot find the key.

Do you happen to have Python header files both in /usr/include
and /usr/local/include? Make sure PyQt is using the ones in
/usr/local/include, if you plan to use PyQt with that Python
installation.

Regards,
Martin


From insert at spam.here  Thu Aug 12 18:55:12 2004
From: insert at spam.here (Doug Holton)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:55:12 -0500
Subject: The winner of the Python Decorator Poll is...
In-Reply-To: <87acx0p0st.fsf@pobox.com>
References: <Ue-dnX0CBNhaEYfcRVn-ig@comcast.com>
	<mailman.1533.1092259988.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4edc17eb.0408112052.1bbd85b3@posting.google.com>
	<xfWdnbEzLpJD5obcRVn-vw@comcast.com> <87acx0p0st.fsf@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <vsqdna79bfPJaIbcRVn-hg@comcast.com>

John J. Lee wrote:
> Of course.  *easily*
 > Er, yup.

Can you try a non-troll response that involves a complete sentence?


From dave at pythonapocrypha.com  Fri Aug 13 10:44:14 2004
From: dave at pythonapocrypha.com (Dave Brueck)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 08:44:14 -0600
Subject: Why I love python.
In-Reply-To: <slrnchpf2s.7ld.npat@gray.efault.net>
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>	<mailman.1583.1092378965.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnchpf2s.7ld.npat@gray.efault.net>
Message-ID: <411CD3BE.505@pythonapocrypha.com>

Nick Patavalis wrote:

> On 2004-08-13, Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>I'm biased, having done a paper on this at the most recent PyCon, but
>>I firmly believe that much of the "Python is too slow" arguments can be
>>answered with "too slow for what?" See the pycon proceedings, but I've
>>been doing VoIP in Python, complete with audio mixing, and it's been 
>>more than fast enough. 
>>
> 
> Yes but what parts of it were done in python, and what parts were done
> inside modules written in C?
> 
> Do you believe, for example, that a web-server written in python could
> outperform apache?

Yes. Apache is not that fast, and web servers are often more network 
bound than CPU bound.

 > How about an H323 implementation, or a TCP/IP
> stack? Or a font renderer? Or a ray-tracer? A gate-level circuit
> simulator? A web-browser? A relational database?

Nobody is arguing that Python is as fast as C. But being slower does not 
imply that Python is unsuitable for those tasks. I'd consider your list 
to be pretty atypical of normal development (how many TCP stacks and 
relational databases need to get written each year?), but even so most 
of the items on your above list _have_ been done in Python and have done 
pretty well for a number of applications. I'd wager that the vast 
majority of programs written have at their disposal more CPU than they 
need, so using more of that spare CPU power (by using a higher level 
language like Python) is a cost many people are ready to pay for many, 
many applications.

Note also that all or most of those programs on your last at one time 
had to be partially implemented in assembly language even if the main 
language was C or C++, and yet that didn't make C or C++ unsuitable 
development languages for the task (nor did it make them only "glue 
languages"). The same can hold true for Python in many cases - if a 
small portion needs to be developed in a lower-level language you can 
still derive great benefit from doing the rest of the application in 
Python.

In nearly all of the cases where I was sure I'd have to later recode a 
portion in C for performance, that day never arrived. For some reason 
additional performance is always welcome, but the lack thereof rarely 
ends up becoming a big deal. (And this is not just in my own projects - 
when other people/companies are driving the requirements they are pretty 
much always more interested in getting it to market and adding new 
features. On one project in particular I have on my todo list to go 
rewrite the performance "critical" core in C and it's been on my todo 
list for a couple of _years_ now because I'm the only one left who cares 
that it could be faster - everyone else is focused on feature set. And 
since the core is partially CPU bound its performance has more than 
doubled during that time due to faster CPUs - here I am sitting still 
and the problem is going away :) ).

>>Sure, you're not going to get great performance for your numerical
>>computation in Python, but luckily, we have numarray for this. 
>>
> If numarray was written *in Python* I would be delighted. But even
> with numarray, if you want to do FFT, you do it in C, not in
> Python. And if FFT is not good for you and you need DCT, again in
> C. And if the FFT of numarray is not sufficient (e.g. you want an
> integer version with certain bit-exact properties), hmmm sory, you
> have to do it in C.
> 
> At this moment Python is an excelent *glue* language for stuff written
> in low-level laguages. It is also an exelent prototyping language. It
> has a long way to go before becomming a true "production" language (in
> the sense outlined above).

I have to disagree - we use it as our main production language for so 
many different things it's hard for me to sit still when it's 
pigeonholed as just a glue language (*especially* when a lot of our 
Python programs sit idle for large blocks of time waiting for e.g. the 
database to get done or for the network pipe to become less saturated).

Maybe it all comes down to domain, but for me the cases you describe are 
rare and oddball enough that if a little C is needed to get the job done 
then it's no big deal because they make up such a tiny minority of all 
the problems we're solving.

C/C++ are becoming less and less suitable for production use - their 
main remaining advantage is performance and that becomes a smaller and 
smaller issue each year. Everything from manual memory management to 
hacky, primitive data structures (even _with_ C++/STL) make them more of 
a liability than an asset - development in them is slow, error-prone, 
and therefore too expensive. For personal projects I don't have enough 
spare time to waste it coding in something so low-level as C, and for 
professional projects the raw speed is generally valued but much less so 
than time-to-market and cost of change so I can't justify C/C++/etc 
there either.

99% of the time the tradeoff for using Python comes down to this:

Benefits: low cost, fast time to market, cheap addition of new features, 
fewer bugs

Costs: use CPU cycles that were already idle anyway

Score!

-Dave


From dth at vxs.com  Fri Aug 13 08:25:18 2004
From: dth at vxs.com (Dan Thompson)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 12:25:18 GMT
Subject: drop into the interpreter
References: <MoPSc.848$PG2.811334@twister.tampabay.rr.com>
	<eh2Tc.92478$vN3.34773@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Oq2Tc.23429$Jp6.1215@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>

Thank you much Ray... this is exactly what I needed.  I use the shell almost
exclusively and debugging through it helps with this little snippet.

Hoang Do
hoang at jotsite.com

"Ray Buvel" <rlbuvel at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:eh2Tc.92478$vN3.34773 at twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> Hoang Do wrote:
> > is there a facility to inspect the run-time of a python script?
> > Essentially, it would execute a script to a set specific point and then
drop
> > into the interpreter.  Something like a "Stop" or "Break"?
>
> This can be done fairly easily by creating a module (lets call it
> interactive) with the following code in it.
> -----------
> import sys,os
>
> def debug_exception(type, value, traceback):
>      # Restore redirected standard I/O
>      sys.stdin = sys.__stdin__
>      sys.stdout = sys.__stdout__
>      sys.stderr = sys.__stderr__
>
>      # Kick the interpreter into interactive mode and call the original
>      # exception handler.
>      os.environ['PYTHONINSPECT'] = '1'
>      sys.__excepthook__(type, value, traceback)
>
> sys.excepthook = debug_exception
> -----------
>
> Now if you import this module and raise an unhandled exception, you will
> be in interactive mode.  In other words, I think the following script
> does what you are asking for.
>
> -----------
> import interactive
>
> raise RuntimeError('Interactive Mode')
> -----------
>
> This also has the advantage that if there are no unhandled exceptions in
> your script, the script runs and terminates normally.
>
> Enjoy,
> Ray Buvel




From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 31 12:19:33 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 18:19:33 +0200
Subject: initializing mutable class attributes
References: <J4zYc.102357$UTP.98636@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gjc8cs.sqvo1v1fhabdjN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<eTHYc.205$yqJ1.68@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
Message-ID: <1gje9dn.r6jpetyroi0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Dan Perl <dperl at rogers.com> wrote:
   ...
> > > redefine it in the method foo.  But the initialization of attr2 is wrong
> > > because all the instances of Father end up sharing the same value.
> Maybe
> > > that is desired sometimes, but usually it is just a bug.
> >
> > I disagree: good Python programmers often use mutable class attributes,
> > and use them to good effect.  I've done my share of Python teaching,
> > consulting and mentoring, and I definitely do *not* think this usage "is
> > desired sometimes but usually it is just a bug".
> 
> My mistake.  I shouldn't have made that statement.  I don't really know
> which case happens more often.  Having said that, that is probably a mistake
> that many beginners make.  Okay, I have no real way of knowing that either,
> but I think it's a good assumption.

I may not have enough experience with beginners, I guess -- my wife,
Anna, does have it, and I hope she sees this tidbit and shares that
experience with us.  In my limited experience with beginners, in a huge
variety of programming languages and other technologies, they make every
possible mistake and many that are patently impossible too; and if you
try to design your technology to be foolproof, you're wasting your time,
because fools are _extremely_ ingenious.  I prefer simplicity and
transparency over desperate attempts to safe fools from their
foolishness -- the smaller, simpler and more transparent a language or
other technology is, the earlier beginners cease to be beginners and
stop making most of their earlier, incredible mistakes.


> > > This is already awkward because there is such a difference between attr1
> and
> > > attr2.
> >
> > One is a class attribute (which nobody forced you to have), the other is
> > an instance attribute.  If you want both to be instance attributes,
> > initialize both in __init__ -- that's all there is to it.  Don't use
> > class attributes unless there's a reason for them to be class
> > attributes, that seems like a good and sensible rule of thumb to me.
> 
> I was using the class attribute as a default, "null", value for the instance
> attributes.  That works just fine for immutable attributes and it allows me
> not to implement an __init__.

Yes, because immutable attributes cannot be mutated -- only by rebinding
that name will anything change, and name rebinding never affects the
object that name previously referred to.  But mutable attributes can be
mutated, indeed that's the whole point of having them, rather than just
having their names rebound to refer to other objects.  I know you want
some kind of automatic copy of (some?) class attributes to instance
attributes, but I think you just haven't thought clearly enough about
the issues involved, even something as trivial as whether the copy
should be shallow or deep -- the difference will be enormous.


> > > accentuated by the fact that you HAVE TO HAVE __init__ in order to
> > > initialize attributes that are mutable.
> >
> > Making __init__ more common means people are more likely to get used to
> > it, and thus makes the bug of not calling a parent class's __init__
> > rarer, not "accentuated".
> 
> I'm leaving the rest of your reply out, but thanks for the suggestion of a
> metaclass, I'll look into it.

You're welcome.

> After seeing a few replies (yours, Benjamin Niemann's and Peter Otten's) to
> my initial posting, I think I am getting the picture that there is a
> conscious decision to keep the use of __init__ the way it is and just make
> people learn it and learn it early enough.  That's a valid approach and I'll
> accept it.

OK.

> I can also understand your frustration with people who are new to Python,
> like me, coming from a background in other OO languages, who are not yet
> comfortable with "the Python way" and feel that there is a "better way" and
> who suggest changing Python.  But you also have to be reallistic and accept
> that there will always be people coming to Python from other languages and
> that the adjustment is rather difficult in some areas.  You may just say

Sure!  If they devoted their energy to understanding things in depth and
complete detail, rather than campaigning to change something because
they don't understand that something well enough yet, their adjustment
would be less difficult and we'd all be happier, of course.  But human
nature will always make some people perceive that requiring THEM, their
precious and unique SELVES!, to change (their habits, their minds, etc)
is absurd, while it's obviously all the rest of the universe that has to
change to accomodate their tastes and preferences (that may be a
disaster for millions of existing users, but hey, none of those users is
THEM, so they're obviously not very important).  They don't generally
phrase things that way (too politically incorrect) and more often than
not they rationalize even to themselves the changes as being good for
mankind, but, really, they're generally just sticking up for their
existing attachments, habits, and worldviews.  I'm quite prone to doing
it myself unless I keep up a substantial guard against my own laziness
-- so I try to avoid suggesting any changes in something complex, if I
possibly can avoid that, until and unless I convince myself that I have
a thorough, complete understanding of that something, of the reason for
being and consequences of what I'm thinking of changing, and of the
impact and consequences of what I'd like to change it into.


> 'Tough!', or you may help them to make that adjustment (I think you are
> doing that), or you may even accommodate them (you should at least consider
> that).

It frightens me to consider that Python might one day get designs
decisions made, not because GvR sees them as useful in themselves and
consistent with Python's overall workings, but to "accomodate" people
who are not (yet) familiar with Python.  Fortunately I can generally
dispell the fear and calm down, but please don't ask me to consider such
horrid scenarios, they can do nothing but frighten me uselessly.


> No one, including you, has given me a reason WHY __init__ is implemented
> this way.  I am not bashing you for that, I would just still like to hear
> that 'WHY'.  I'm sure that this implementation has some advantages.  But,
> coming from a C++ and Java background, where parent default constructors are
> automatically invoked (well, not always, and that is something that users
> have to learn too), I find that that approach has some clear advantages.

In this like in many other details, Python chooses simplicity and
clarity against automatic, black-magic, "behind the scenes" approaches.
"Explicit is better than implicit" is one part of the Zen of Python that
speaks to this -- at a python interactive prompt do
    import this
to read it all.  The automatic invocation of default constructors when
they exist, what you have to do instead to get different constructors
for parent classes, etc etc, are all complications.  When classes are
designed to execute responsibilities it's not unusual that they can't
really have a useful no-arguments constructor -- and when they don't
have such a constructor, C++'s and Java's rules are nothing BUT overhead
and conceptual complication.  In C++ one often works around the burden
of contraints on constructor calls via "two-phase constructors" -- a
default constructor that does not really leave the instance in a usable
state, just to bypass the darn rules you find "have some clear
advantages", and then a normal member function that really does the job
of initialization and has the enormous advantage that YOU decide when
and with what arguments to call it, without all the darn rules in the
way, explicitly.  Well, in Python the constructor, __init__, is under
you control in exactly this way -- less complication, more simplicity,
more transparency, fewer rules to learn, and far fewer instances of the
"two-phase constructor" pattern (not zero, mind you -- just 99% fewer).

> 
> Those are my 2 cents.
> 
> Dan
> PS: Does my last name attract the wrong kind of attention from people in
> this newsgroup?  It's really my name, it's not fake, BTW.

I don't think you need to worry about this!-)


Alex


From webraviteja at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 17 00:46:03 2004
From: webraviteja at yahoo.com (Ravi Teja Bhupatiraju)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 21:46:03 -0700
Subject: Best programming language
References: <mailman.1718.1092639914.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<5155aad2.0408161008.40c57262@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <b74e43f1.0408162046.551fe4a3@posting.google.com>

No need for quotes either :-).

Just type programming and Python is second. First is C. And I thought
Python wasn't getting enough press :-).

Now I have something to bash on the heads of people who say "Python?
What's that?"

Hoo Boy!



kveretennicov at yahoo.com (Konstantin Veretennicov) wrote in message news:<5155aad2.0408161008.40c57262 at posting.google.com>...
> Roman Suzi <rnd at onego.ru> wrote in message news:<mailman.1718.1092639914.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> > ;-)
> > 
> > Just type into google
> > "best programming language"
> > and press (I am lucky)
> > 
> > 
> > Sincerely yours, Roman Suzi
> 
> Just type in "programming language" and look at #1
> ;-)
> 
> - kv


From donald.welch at hp.com  Thu Aug 26 19:15:39 2004
From: donald.welch at hp.com (djw)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:15:39 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <412e704b@usenet01.boi.hp.com>

For

Don Welch


From thomas.krueger at gmx.net  Tue Aug 10 11:28:21 2004
From: thomas.krueger at gmx.net (Thomas =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kr=FCger?=)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:28:21 +0200
Subject: Secure storage for passwords for admin scripts?
References: <c90c3203.0408100711.3f7b056d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfapj2$3lj$05$1@news.t-online.com>

Max wrote:

> I have a collection of system admin scripts (on Win 2k) that I would
> like to automate the execution of. However, some of them require the
> use of logins with admin rights, and would therefore prefer not to
> store the IDs in the clear text of the source. If memory serves
> correctly, the "compiled" .pyc files do not provide much security in
> this area.
> 
> Are there are recommended methods for supplying scripts with login
> information in a secure fashion?

Compiled Python scripts can be decompiled pretty easy. So they will not give
any security at all.
To store the password securely you can hash them with an algorithm like MD5.
For authentication you also hash the entered password and compare it with
the stored hash.

Thomas


From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Sun Aug 22 15:02:43 2004
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:02:43 -0700
Subject: How to sort this kind of list easily?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2030.1093000452.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2030.1093000452.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4128ef9d$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

Ben Last wrote:
>>From: Anthony Baxter, in response to BruceKL WhoH
>>list.sort sorts tuples by first argument, then second &c. If you want a
>>custom sort order, look at the decorate-sort-undecorate pattern.
> 
> 
> Or if you want to sort only on your Id, use a lambda:
> l.sort(lambda x,y: cmp(x[0],y[0]))
> 
> To force sorting on just the nth element of the tuples, replace 0 with n in
> the above.
> 
> b
> 
If you are using 2.4 (now in beta), you could also do:

lst.sort(key=lambda element:element[1])


From beliavsky at aol.com  Mon Aug  2 10:33:38 2004
From: beliavsky at aol.com (beliavsky at aol.com)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 07:33:38 -0700
Subject: Microbenchmark: Summing over array of doubles
References: <4d642979.0407312049.7a8aecab@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <3064b51d.0408020633.7698c3a2@posting.google.com>

bulatov at engr.orst.edu (Yaroslav Bulatov) wrote in message news:<4d642979.0407312049.7a8aecab at posting.google.com>...
> I made an array of 10 million floats timed how long it takes to sum
> the elements, here's what I got (millis):
> 
> gcc -O2:               21
> Python with numarray:  104
> Python with Numeric:   302
> java:                  325 
> gcc:                   348
> Python with Psyco:     1317
> Pure Python using sum: 2312
> Pure Python:           5631
> 
> http://yaroslav.hopto.org/russianwiki/index.php/c-numeric-speed
> 
> numarray takes over Numeric at about 1100 floats
> 
> I'm doing intensive computation on arrays in Python, so if you have
> suggestions on Python/C solutions that could push the envelope, please
> let me know.

What hardware are you using?

On a 2.8 GHz Intel Pentium 4, a Fortran 95 code compiled with Compaq
Visual Fortran 6.6C using the -optimize:5 option takes 40
milliseconds. Probably you could improve the speed of the C program by
compiling it with the Intel C compiler. The Fortran program speed is
constrained by array accesses, not the additions (which are done in
hardware). A program to compute sum(xx**4) takes the same time as one
to compute sum(xx).

program xsum_double
! sum 1e7 doubles
implicit none
integer, parameter :: n = 10000000
real(kind=8)       :: xx(n)
real               :: t1,t2,xsum
call random_seed()
call random_number(xx)
call cpu_time(t1)
xsum = sum(xx)
call cpu_time(t2)
print*,1000*(t2-t1),xsum
end program xsum_double


From peter at engcorp.com  Sat Aug  7 08:32:24 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 08:32:24 -0400
Subject: Klingon (was Re: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2)
In-Reply-To: <53449fcb.0408062138.68a1c196@posting.google.com>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>	<opsb9g3hjudgjose@mail.yahoo.it>
	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2-SdnZCwNs1SwI_cRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>
	<53449fcb.0408062138.68a1c196@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <RLidnb3avo1EVoncRVn-hA@powergate.ca>

Alan Anderson wrote:
> Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> 
>>Yes, of course after using them for a while they will become more 
>>readable, but there are people who have learned to speak Klingon as
>>well -- and that doesn't change the fact that Klingon is deliberately
>>very difficult to learn and awkward.
> 
> Pardon me for jumping in, but I happen to be attending a conference on
> the Klingon language at the moment and I wanted to correct a
> misunderstanding.  Yes, Klingon is deliberately "alien", being
> intentionally created to be unlike many natural languages in many
> ways. But it's actually rather easy to learn, and it's only "awkward"
> in a couple of minor ways (embedding comparatives in larger sentences,
> for example) -- *every* language has its awkward spots.

Hmm... the last time I heard, which admittedly was several years ago,
there were only a couple of fluent Klingon speakers on the entire
planet, though thousands had attempted to learn it.  And one of those
was the originator of the language.  Maybe that data was incorrect,
or has changed?

> Were Klingon a natural language, its regularity would be exceptional.

That does count for a lot.

> This is just an anectodal data point that might let you know that what
> is difficult and awkward from your point of view could very well be
> simple and straightforward for others who don't share your
> preconceptions.

Perhaps as an Esperantist I have a pretty good idea of just how easy
to learn a language can be.  But you're right that I have preconceptions
about Klingon.  I'd be interested in stats on how many people really
do speak it fluently now.

Not to start a language war or anything... :-)

-Peter


From jbenson at lowell.edu  Wed Aug 18 19:32:58 2004
From: jbenson at lowell.edu (Jim Benson)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:32:58 -0700 (MST)
Subject: introspection?
In-Reply-To: <20040818225608.GB14005@unununium.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408181617460.28821-100000@sextans.mesa.lowellnet>

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Phil Frost wrote:

> >>> class C:
> ...  pass
> >>> C().__class__.__name__
> 'C'
> 
> That is, __class__ of an instance gives you the class object of which
> it's an instance, and __name__ gives you the identifier that represents
> the class. Classes also have a __module__ attribute.
> 

Thank you Phil and Troy for pointing out that __class__.__name__
gives me the class name. How do i get the method name?
i.e i could now modify my example as:

class JJTest:

	def methodA(self):

        	print 'ERROR: in JJTest.methodA'
		s1 = self.__class__.__name__ 
               	s2 = 'methodA'
                s = s1 + '.' + s2
                print 'ERROR: in %s' s   
	 
>>> from jjtest import JJTest
>>> jj = JJTest()
>>> jj.methodA()
ERROR: in JJTest.methodA
ERROR: in JJTest.methodA
>>>

how do i get s2?

Thanks,

Jim	



> On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 02:43:46PM -0700, Jim Benson wrote:
> > 
> > newbie question here:
> > 
> > How does one get the class and method name from within
> > a method? i.e here i have obviously hardcoded the class 
> > and method name:
> > 
> > class JJTest:
> > 
> >     def methodA(self):
> > 
> >         print 'ERROR: in JJTest.methodA'
> > 
> > >>> from jjtest import JJTest
> > >>> jj = JJTest()
> > >>> jj.methodA()
> > ERROR: in JJTest.methodA
> > >>>
> > 
> > The Java way of doing this would be something like:
> > 
> > System.out.println("ERROR in: " + this.getClass().getName());
> > 
> > I suspect that there are attributes that one can use to do 
> > something similar in Python. 
> > 
> > If any of you Python experts would let me know how to do this in
> > Python, i would appreciate it.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Jim
> 




From nid_oizo at yahoo.com_removethe_  Fri Aug 20 03:58:10 2004
From: nid_oizo at yahoo.com_removethe_ (Nicolas Fleury)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 03:58:10 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <a9iVc.23882$Mt5.1152415@wagner.videotron.net>

My vote: E4, J2, K


From ville at spammers.com  Tue Aug 31 11:47:19 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 18:47:19 +0300
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87hdqok9i6.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1rfz68ely9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<876574k7du.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1r3c28ejis.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<zILXc.54863$xi6.26091@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<1rllg0cb3m.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<874qmovxna.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<slrncj8kv2.kp.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<slrncj8mvt.djm.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>
	<slrncj94hr.kp.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
Message-ID: <du7oekrnwc8.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Antoon" == Antoon Pardon <apardon at forel.vub.ac.be> writes:

    Antoon> The nesting reflects the structure of the algorithm. If an
    Antoon> algorithm is best described by the nesting of a number of
    Antoon> control structures then i don't see how you are going to
    Antoon> remove that nesting.

Functions and classes?

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From albalmer at att.net  Wed Aug 25 18:42:55 2004
From: albalmer at att.net (Alan Balmer)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:42:55 -0700
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <te5qi0tr1cn9ol3t7qj44f7ti6geugqdsr@4ax.com>

On 25 Aug 2004 14:56:06 -0700, xah at xahlee.org (Xah Lee) wrote:

>
>Did you know that throughout history there's this thing called cult?

Yes, we've heard of them.

-- 
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
removebalmerconsultingthis at att.net


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 23 14:40:29 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:40:29 -0400
Subject: __name__ becoming read-write?
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed204082310174d97da55@mail.gmail.com>
References: <uutji0h87t24cb1nej03gdggs0hg6eno3l@4ax.com>	<mailman.2205.1093275632.5135.python-list@python.org>	<c94ki0dgh70ud7e1ok8sshlvg4pe96s4h8@4ax.com>	<mailman.2211.1093279236.5135.python-list@python.org>	<3b8ki0tlphodtt8ge8an274qp78ihp1i3n@4ax.com>
	<e69d3ed204082310174d97da55@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cgddmt$8co$1@sea.gmane.org>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:00:39 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
> 
>>I see the point.
>>
>>But.. there is always a but.
>>
>>I'm thinking now a special sytnax item in the __form__ at the top of
>>function that would:
>>
>>1) put one on notice that the function is to be transformed (as in
>>"see below").
>>
>>2) allow a name to be assigned to it, which will become the
>>transform's __name__.
> 
> 
> This is a bad idea - code inside the function should be executed when
> the function is executed. docstrings are a special-case (because
> they're not actually code), but, to be honest, this whole discussion
> has made me deeply uncomfortable with where the docstrings sit at the
> moment. Once 2.4 is out, I know I'll probably start using something
> like:
> 
> def doc(str):
>     def endoculate(func, str=str):
>         func.__doc__ = str
>         return func
> 
> @doc('''This function frobulates the meta-whatsit''')
> def frobulate(metawhatsit):
>     .....
> 
> (insert final decorator syntax as required)
> 

No Anthony.  Please don't ever write doc strings like that.  Please...
I don't care what kind of technical problems that solves, that's not 
good looking code (IMO).

> Paul Morrow's idea of special magic __foo__ inside the function is
> deeply magical, and not likely to make any new users running across it
> any happier. "So wait, this stuff that _looks_ like code in a
> function, isn't actually? what the hell?" The new syntax[1] for
> decorators is at least very obvious that something _new_ is going on.
> This has been one of the things I've been using as an internal filter
> for various syntax proposals for decorators. It should _not_ look like
> some existing valid python that "just happens" to have a new effect.
> I'd also prefer that the syntax _not_ be valid python in pre-2.4, in
> case code accidently gets run under an old interpreter. The decorator
> usage I have planned will be very very ugly if the decorators _don't_
> get applied to the function, for whatever reason.
> 
> [1] whether @syntax, or block-before-def

New users just need to learn that __anythingThatLooksLikeThis__ is 
probably magical; that care should be taken anytime they mess with 
variables so obviously and particularly 'decorated' (sorry :-)).  Of 
course experienced pythonistas already know that these things are 
special and that they (almost) never have the 'local variable' semantics 
they appear to have.  So it's an education problem; making new users 
aware of the consequences of manipulating magical attributes.

And yes, I've been suggesting that we do more with that syntax.  That we 
create magical attributes (or a single magical attribute) that change 
the behavior of functions, just as __metaclass__ changes the behavior of 
classes [*].  Hey, how about a __features__ attribute?

    def foo():
        __features__ = synchronized, memoized


* When I say "just as", I don't mean to indicate that the mechanics of 
the transformation are the same.

Paul



From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sat Aug 21 23:42:32 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 23:42:32 -0400
Subject: backward compatibility?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408212200050.1131-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <cg94n8$26q$1@panix3.panix.com>

In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408212200050.1131-100000 at kleigh.nl>,
Peter Kleiweg  <in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid> wrote:
>
>So how serious are plans to remove things from Python, like lambda and
>map and reduce? I am just starting out with Python and if there is a
>danger that the programs I write today won't work next year, I rather
>invest my time in another language. I might try Ruby, or stick with
>Perl.

It's serious.  OTOH, they'll stay in the language until Python 3.0 comes
out, and there's nobody forcing you to upgrade.  The useful lifespan of
a Python version seems to be about three or four years (my company just
switched from Python 1.5.2 to Python 2.2, so we'll be two full versions
out of date by the end of the year).
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From insert at spam.here  Fri Aug 20 11:00:11 2004
From: insert at spam.here (Doug Holton)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:00:11 -0500
Subject: voting method flawed?  [Re: Alternative decorator syntax decision]
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <MO-dnZ5bRv1ljLvcRVn-jQ@comcast.com>

Paul McGuire wrote:
> I would propose a multivote survey: each poster gets 3 votes among the
> lettered choices on the Wiki page above.  You can use all 3 for a single
> option, or split them across 2 or 3 options if you are open to more than
> one.
> My vote is:  J2  J2  C1

I've heard of different voting methods like ranking your top choices, 
but I've never heard of this one.  It appears that if someone is open 
minded about more than one option, their opinion counts *less* that 
someone who is doggedly determined about one particular syntax.  They 
get three votes while you get one.  That doesn't seem fair or the best 
way to determine a community favorite.


From adurdin at gmail.com  Sat Aug 28 18:34:11 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 08:34:11 +1000
Subject: Iteration over Lists and Strings
In-Reply-To: <5M4Yc.326126$a24.276550@attbi_s03>
References: <cUSXc.56768$xi6.42946@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<mailman.2552.1093664310.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgpa73$oa5$1@news-reader2.wanadoo.fr>
	<1gj80xs.1cfownoqz4m9N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<5M4Yc.326126$a24.276550@attbi_s03>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a0408281534594ca00d@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 19:09:53 GMT, Brent W. Hughes
<brent.hughes at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> Did you say enumerate(seq) takes constant time?  I would have thought it was
> proportional to len(seq).

enumerate(seq) is O(1)
index(seq) is O(N)

And thus:

for i, val in enumerate(seq):  print i   is O(N)
for val in seq:  print seq.index(val)   is O(N*N)


From spam at no.thanks  Sun Aug  1 19:37:18 2004
From: spam at no.thanks (aum)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 11:37:18 +1200
Subject: want recommendations - distributed storage modules?
Message-ID: <410d86b4@news.orcon.net.nz>

Hi,

I'm looking for a python-based framework for distributed storage.

Needs:
  - high redundancy - high probability of being able to retrieve
    data even if (say) 30% of nodes are down
  - pure-python implementation
  - peer to peer - no central server requirement
  - 3rd-party module requirements - none, or pure python only
  - scalable

A Distributed Hash Table (DHT) implementation would probably suit best. 
However, the only DHT implementations I've been able to find for python, 
such as SharkyPy and khashmir, are both broken on my box, and are 
under-documented and apparently unsupported.

Any recommendations?

Cheers
aum


From yeah at right.com  Tue Aug 31 14:30:26 2004
From: yeah at right.com (Angus Mackay)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 18:30:26 GMT
Subject: generic tokenizer
Message-ID: <6t3Zc.37294$A8.12593@edtnps89>

I remember python having a generic tokenizer in the library. all I want 
is to set a list of token seperators and then read tokens out of a 
stream, the token seperators should be returned as themselves.

is there anything like this?

cheers, Angus.


From zanesdad at bellsouth.net  Thu Aug 19 22:17:37 2004
From: zanesdad at bellsouth.net (Jeremy Jones)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:17:37 -0400
Subject: Rita Sue and Bob too
In-Reply-To: <cg3ksb$bg5$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
References: <cg3ksb$bg5$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <41255F41.1000701@bellsouth.net>

M. Clift wrote:

>Hi All,
>
>Can someone help. I promise I've looked how to do this but can't find a
>way...
>
>Ok, to find one name is easy
>
>if 'Bob' in list:
>    print "They were found"
>else:
>    print "They are not in list"
>
>But, how to I find a sequence in a list of unknown size? i.e. this sequence
>in list of other names and replace it with three others?
>
>'Rita','Sue','Bob'
>
>This is almost a nightly occurrence (my posting questions), but I am
>learning : )
>
>
>  
>
I'm sure someone else can come up with something more elegant, but 
here's a way you could do it:

 >>> names
['larry', 'curly', 'moe', 'shimp', 'rita', 'sue', 'bob', 'billy', 'scott']
 >>> for idx in range(len(names)):
...     if names[idx:idx + 3] == ['sue', 'bob', 'billy']:
...             print "found 'em at element", idx
...             break
...
found 'em at element 5
 >>>

Notice, this:
 >>> ['sue', 'bob', 'billy'] in names
False
 >>>
 returns false.  The reason is, I think, because the set ['sue', 'bob', 
'billy'] is not really a subset of ['larry', 'curly', 'moe', 'shimp', 
'rita', 'sue', 'bob', 'billy', 'scott'], even though the three names 
appear sequentially in both lists.  But, this:

 >>> names2
[['sue', 'bob', 'billy'], ['larry', 'curly', 'moe', 'shimp', 'rita', 
'sue', 'bob', 'billy', 'scott']]
 >>> ['sue', 'bob', 'billy'] in names2
True
 >>>
does "work" for the same reason that it doesn't work in the first 
example.  The list ['sue', 'bob', 'billy'] itself is part of the larger 
list, names2.

HTH,

Jeremy Jones



From Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com  Tue Aug  3 05:13:22 2004
From: Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com (Ames Andreas (MPA/DF))
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 11:13:22 +0200
Subject: IronPython-0.6 is now available!
Message-ID: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA15@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>

Hi,

Martin v. L?wis wrote:

> is a language different from Java. Essentially, I believe that
> all these .NET languages are just different ways to write C#.

and futhermore it seems simply not to be true that .NET apps are
language independent.  For some evidence just see the most probably
well known

http://perso-info.enst-bretagne.fr/~beugnard/papiers/lb-sem.shtml

As usual many claims about .NET seem to be pure marketing blurb.  So
forgive me if I'm suspicious about hilarious claims about it.


cheers,

andreas


From knowlj at hotmail.com  Mon Aug  9 13:18:42 2004
From: knowlj at hotmail.com (Jared)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 10:18:42 -0700
Subject: Mechwarrior Python Game
Message-ID: <f4844ba0.0408090918.745ac713@posting.google.com>

Has anybody played the Mechwarrior Miniatures game?  I'm trying to
represent the game in python.  First thing I need to do is make a
playing field.  Mechs will move on the playing field based on inches
to scale in any direction.  Any ideas?


From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 05:13:32 2004
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 02:13:32 -0700
Subject: ClientCookie
References: <6f402501.0408110018.1e4e5ca8@posting.google.com>
	<87acx1qo1z.fsf@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <6f402501.0408120113.746639d4@posting.google.com>

jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee) wrote in message news:<87acx1qo1z.fsf at pobox.com>...
> fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord) writes:
> 
> > Has anyone used ClientCookie to store cookies ? 
> > I'm going to play around with 'pickling cookies' - but I wondered if
> > anyone had any experience of this.
> > 
> > (For session persistence in approx - my cgi proxy)
> 
> Just thought to add:
> 
> 1. are you using a database for this? (you should be) Look at
>    BSDDBCookieJar.  BSDDBCookieJar isn't well-tested, but might be
>    just the ticket for what you're doing.  It's not in cookielib yet,
>    but the one from ClientCookie 0.9.x should work fine with
>    cookielib, and I'll make it available in a separate package RSN,
>    along with the other stuff in ClientCookie but not in cookielib.
> 

The program I'm writing is a CGI. I'd like to have *minimum*
dependencies.
The version of Python on the server is 2.2 (I have no control over
that) and having a dependence on CookieClient is enough for me. I
think I can only use BSDDBCookieJar if the server has the Berkely
Database installed ? I'd like other people to be able to use my CGI on
a basic Python 2.2 install - so even if I have it on my server, I
don't want to be dependent on it.

What I'm aiming to provide is persistent cookie support for multiple
users of the same CGI - so I'll probably assign each user an id number
via a cookie I give to them and have a pickled CookieJar for each
user.

I'd also like to work towards cookie management as well - so each user
can see/edit/control which cookies they have saved.

At the moment getting it to work at all would be a bonus........


Regards,

Fuzzy

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html



> 2. here's a simpler way (in a sense) of serialising a CookieJar than
>    pickling:
> 
> cj = cookielib.CookieJar()
> ...
> s = [repr(c) for c in cj]
> 
> 
>    and unserialising:
> 
> cj = cookielib.CookieJar()
> for cs in s:
>     cj.set_cookie(eval(cs))
> ...
> 
>    You'd still need to write something like BSDDBCookieJar, though, if
>    I understand what you're doing.
> 
> 
> John


From jpmorichon at earthlink.net  Fri Aug 13 12:44:42 2004
From: jpmorichon at earthlink.net (CptPicard)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:44:42 GMT
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<Uf6dnb0hhtx1ToHcRVn-vg@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <_d6Tc.23589$Jp6.3458@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>


"Peter Hansen" <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message
news:Uf6dnb0hhtx1ToHcRVn-vg at powergate.ca...
> beliavsky at aol.com wrote:
>
> > One of the most commmon reasons programmers cite for not trying Python
> > is that indentation determines the program flow -- they think its
> > weird. I think programmers who actually try Python adapt quickly and
> > do not find the indentation rules to be a problem.
>
> I think you're right on both counts.  For me, the adaptation
> period was roughly ten seconds...
>
> > I wonder if there is a way to remove this initial barrier.
>
> Why?  Is there really any evidence that the Python community
> is missing a large number of really excellent programmers merely
> because they are resistant to the idea of syntactically significant
> indentation?  Yes, it's one of the most common reasons programmers
> cite as you note above, but in absolute terms I doubt it's that
> significant.

That's true.
As the question is formulated, I don't think that a programmer will be
stopped by the indentation syntax. There are so many languages with very
strange syntax : we adopt them because they are efficient in what they are
doing and are adaptated to our problems.
But on a first approach, if you know that several languages could fix your
problem, you may tend to choose the one you prefer regarding several
criteria like ... syntax.
And for me, the problem could be here: on a quick analysis, people may
prefer Perl to Python (for example ;-) ) just because it looks like that
they are doing the same thing and Perl syntax may look more appealing (not
talking about regular expressions here). And once you are engaged in
learning a language, you tend to think twice before learning another one.
And the main question becomes : what Python will bring to me so that I stop
working on my current language and learn about Python ?
So I don't think that it is a problem of laziness or of being closed minded.

Note: I assume here that people have the choice to choose their programming
languages.

I noticed too that, amazingly, a lot of programmers know about Perl but not
Python.

>
> > I'm not saying that Python's use of indentation is bad, just that it
> > stops many programmers from trying it.
>
> I really question whether we are looking for such programmers.
> They sound rather close minded and perhaps even lazy...
>
> -Peter




From corey.coughlin at attbi.com  Tue Aug 24 19:33:04 2004
From: corey.coughlin at attbi.com (Corey Coughlin)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 16:33:04 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <a8623416.0408241533.6e78fe3d@posting.google.com>

J2 J2 H

Although in the H category I prefer the spaced option.  The vertical
line as an arrow is a little more appealing that a smudgy decoration.


From jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl  Sat Aug  7 16:23:36 2004
From: jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl (Jarek Zgoda)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 22:23:36 +0200
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
In-Reply-To: <m3y8kqpw2l.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu> <cf3b56$gt6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>
	<m3y8kqpw2l.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <cf3dna$891$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>

Michael Hudson wrote:

>>Come on, guys, fix real problems like interpreter thread safety,
>>improve performance, don't make us, "real-world software
>>developers", screaming with every new release, please.
> 
> http://www.python.org/patches/

You want to say "if you want any improvement, do it yourself"? Sure, 
it's much better than Java's JCP, but expect 
http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/F/fork.html if enough people will share 
the same annoyance and anger.

I write some free software, but I never tell users "go fix it yourself". 
This is rude.

-- 
Jarek Zgoda
http://jpa.berlios.de/


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Mon Aug  9 20:17:01 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 17:17:01 -0700
Subject: Parsing broken HTML via Mozilla
References: <mailman.1413.1092080863.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1092097429.844882@news.commspeed.net>


"Walter D?rwald" <walter at livinglogic.de> wrote in message
news:mailman.1413.1092080863.5135.python-list at python.org...
> Hello all!
>
> I'm trying to parse broken HTML with several Python tools.
> Unfortunately none of them work 100% reliable. Problems are
> e.g. nested comments, bare "&" in URLs and "<" in text (e.g.
> "if foo < bar") etc.
>
> All of these pages can be displayed properly in a browser
> so why not reuse the parser in e.g. Mozilla? Is there any
> way to get proper XML out of Mozilla? Calling mozilla on the
> command line would be OK, but it would be better if I could
> use Mozilla like a SAX parser. Is there any project that
> provides this functionality?
>
> Bye,
>     Walter D?rwald
>
> Maybe you should preprocess your files with something like,
http://www.zope.org/Members/chrisw/StripOGram
which can help you get rid of the stuff you dont want

Tom




From jaydonnell at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 24 22:30:08 2004
From: jaydonnell at yahoo.com (Jay Donnell)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 19:30:08 -0700
Subject: urllib hangs
References: <a6fdfd6b.0408230902.2afc0e08@posting.google.com>
	<cgdaoh$1gn$01$1@news.t-online.com>
	<a6fdfd6b.0408231537.c2c5af2@posting.google.com>
	<tZOdnSAokOE9VbfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<a6fdfd6b.0408241006.6b5c4d65@posting.google.com>
	<cggcg3$k49$02$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <a6fdfd6b.0408241830.4639212d@posting.google.com>

Thanks a lot :)


From Jeffrey at Fro.man  Tue Aug 24 23:02:26 2004
From: Jeffrey at Fro.man (Jeffrey Froman)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:02:26 -0700
Subject: Inline Conditionals?
References: <1093385974.29259.146.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<f03f4fdf040824152839a66d4b@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.2308.1093386620.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <UN2dnQZ2AJTZnLHcRVn-qw@cablespeedwa.com>

Joshua Ginsberg wrote:

> def foo(x):
> return foo == 'bar' ? 'w00t' : 'l33t'

You could do something like:

def foo(x):
    return ((x==bar) and 'w00t') or 'l33t'

But this doesn't work when you want to return a false value for a positive
result on your truth test. Thus:

def foo(x):
    return ((x==None) and None) or x[:4]

always returns None, regardless of what x is.



Jeffrey


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 30 03:05:13 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:05:13 +0200
Subject: Generator expressions v/s list comprehensions
References: <mahesh-525B07.12195528082004@individual.net>
	<1gj8y77.6qshr41q531veN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<mahesh-7E265C.14093428082004@individual.net>
Message-ID: <1gja740.1c0kkt61tlhws0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Mahesh Padmanabhan <mahesh at privacy.net> wrote:
   ...
> What is "Python's applicative order evaluation" and how do generator 
> expressions get around it?

I see you've received several answers but it doesn't seem that they
address this point, so let me try.

Python, like most programming languages, specifies that evaluation is in
"applicative order": each argument to a function (or operator, etc) is
entirely evaluated before the function executes (Python, like several
other languages, makes a specific ad hoc exception for 'short-circuiting
operators', namely 'and' & 'or', which may entirely omit evaluating one
argument in some cases).  This is also known as 'strict' or 'eager'
evaluation and by other names yet (some draw subtle distinctions between
the exact connotation of such names but for simplicity we'll treat them
as synonyms, and similarly for terms introduced in the next paragraph).

Haskell, where the concept of list comprehensions originated, is
different than most languages: Haskell specifies that evaluation is in
"normal order" -- each argument and PART of an argument is evaluated at
the time, if ever, at which that value is needed to compute.  This is
also known as 'non-strict' or 'lazy' evaluation.  The reason this
feature of Haskell is pretty unusual is that implementing it is somewhat
complicated and costly -- in a lazy-evaluation language's implementation
there are typically plenty of 'thunks' of code being stashed here and
yon for possible future execution.  I don't even know of any lazy
evaluation language that does not rely on the crucial simplification of
the computation environment given by 'functional programming' aka FP
(basically, the idea that all objects are immutable -- a program
computes new objects, it never mutates existing objects)... and Python
is not a FP language (it crucially uses mutable data, particularly
mutable lists), so it would be astonishing if Python had the kind of
generalized support for lazy evaluation that you see in Haskell.

So, Python copied Haskell's list comprehensions, but didn't (couldn't,
probably!) copy the lazy evaluation aspect.  So, whenever Python
evaluates a LC, it evaluates it fully -- it necessarily materializes the
whole list in memory, say N items' worth.  This is intrinsically O(N) in
space and therefore AT BEST can be O(N) in time (it will be worse than
O(N) unless each step is constant-time, i.e. O(1)...!).  This doesn't
apply to Haskell, thanks to lazy evaluation -- in Haskell, each item of
a list comprehension will be evaluated only if and when it's needed,
just like any other operand/arguments/etc... but Python can't do that.

Which is why Python 2.4 introduced generator comprehensions -- in a way
a closer match to Haskell's list comprehensions, than Python's own LCs!
That's because generators play the role of 'thunks' -- pieces of code
hanging out there in suspended animation, ready for a bit more execution
if and when needed -- for the specific but crucially important case of
sequential iteration over (some prefix of) the items of a (potentially
unbounded) sequence [[a case which you will also find in other
programming models under such names as 'streams' -- Unix pipes also
implement some part of that, with various processes in a pipeline
playing the role of the thunks in this case...]].  Generators (and more
generally iterators, and more specifically generator comprehensions)
give Python "just enough lazy evaluation to get by" -- without paying
the full conceptual and practical costs in switching to "full laziness"
(and totally immutable data), Python thereby nevertheless gets the
ability to express some (vast and important) subset of those algorithms
which non-strict evaluation makes so elegant to express.


Alex


From maxm at mxm.dk  Wed Aug 25 06:49:18 2004
From: maxm at mxm.dk (Max M)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:49:18 +0200
Subject: Why return None?
In-Reply-To: <HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
Message-ID: <412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>

Martin DeMello wrote:
> Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:26:26 GMT, Martin DeMello
>><martindemello at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>It seems to be a fairly common pattern for an object-modifying method to
>>>return None - however, this is often quite inconvenient.
>>
>>list.reverse() modifies the list in place. The python idiom is that
>>these don't return a reference to the modified list. Although note the
> 
> Yes, but why? I mean, is there either an advantage to returning None or
> some inherent danger in returning self?

It is a design philosophy. Explicit is better than implicit.

what would you expect a_list.sort() to return?

If it returns a list, you would expect it to be a sorted copy of the 
list. Not the list itself.

But for performance reasons the list is sorted in place.

So if you modify the list in place, why should sort() then return the list?

That the sort() method returns a None is actually a pedagocical tool to 
tell the programmer that the list is modified in place.

If it had returned the list the programmer would later be surprised to 
find that the list had been modified. It would seem like hard to find 
nasty side effect. The way it is now is very explicit and easy to find out.


regards Max M


From peter at engcorp.com  Wed Aug 11 08:04:23 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:04:23 -0400
Subject: Executing bytecode from a string.
In-Reply-To: <m3brhios4d.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
References: <pan.2004.08.11.07.18.32.690395@proteus-tech.com>
	<m3brhios4d.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <kIKdncejCvLUlofcRVn-gA@powergate.ca>

Michael Hudson wrote:
> "Benjamin Scherrey" <scherrey at proteus-tech.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>I'm curious as to how difficult it would be to take a string that contains
>>compiled bytecode, load it into memory, give it a function name then
>>execute that function. 
> 
> Fairly hard: you'd need to guess or work out all the other parameters
> to new.code such as argcount, stacksize,...

I seem to recall doing this, and it wasn't hard for my particular
case because it wasn't an arbitrary function.  It took no arguments,
returned nothing, etc...

I was doing this as an experiment to see whether it was feasible
to use evolutionary programming to evolve Python bytecode that
would solve some problem.

The idea worked in principle (I was able to get the bytecode to
execute) but unfortunately there were numerous instances where the
effectively random bytecode would lead to the interpreter crashing
fatally.

I still think it's a neat idea, but it won't work well with Python
in its current form.

Might be useful for doing some kind of stress testing on the
interpreter though, if someone was interested in making it
bullet-proof even for psychotic code (as part of a new security
initiative, perhaps?).

And sorry, but this was a quickie experiment and I don't have the
code any more.  Just wanted to say it was doable for the simplest
case.

-Peter


From tpassin at comcast.net  Mon Aug  2 09:59:25 2004
From: tpassin at comcast.net (Thomas B. Passin)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 09:59:25 -0400
Subject: [XML-SIG] value error when parsing XML
In-Reply-To: <410B7277.3000609@mail.usyd.edu.au>
References: <410B7277.3000609@mail.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <410E48BD.9060202@comcast.net>

Ajay Brar wrote:
> 
> i get a value error when parsing an xml file. This is because it can't 
> find the DTD -
> ValueError: unknown url type: ../um_xml/um.dtd
> 

Is it a Windows machine, and if so did you try ..\um_xml\um.dtd? (or of 
course ..\\um_xml\\um.dtd or the raw notation if the path is in code 
instead of on the command line)

Cheers,

Tom P


-- 
Thomas B. Passin
Explorer's Guide to the Semantic Web (Manning Books)
http://www.manning.com/catalog/view.php?book=passin


From Jared.Cohen at noaa.gov  Thu Aug 19 11:32:56 2004
From: Jared.Cohen at noaa.gov (Jared Cohen)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:32:56 -0400
Subject: Please help -- Tkinter Scale widget with DoubleVar is acting weird
Message-ID: <4124C828.5080106@noaa.gov>

Hi all. I'm currently using a Tkinter Scale widget which uses a 
DoubleVar as its control variable. I then use the "trace_variable('w', 
callback)" method to invoke a callback whenever the DoubleVar changes.

The problem is this: the callback is triggered when the slider moves (as 
it should), but it's also triggered when I just HOVER the mouse over the 
slider without clicking! Somehow or other, it must think that the 
control variable is being changed, even though it isn't. I *think* that 
this problem is related to the loss of precision that DoubleVars can 
have, but I'm not really sure. Has anyone else experienced this problem? 
How can I fix this?

As an aid, here's a quick stub program that illustrates the problem. Try 
(for example) moving the slider to 0.3, release the mouse button, then 
move the mouse pointer back and forth over the slider WITHOUT clicking. 
Each time the pointer passes over the slider, it will print the value.


import sys, Tkinter, types

root = Tkinter.Tk()
var = Tkinter.DoubleVar()

def callback(*args):
    print var.get()

var.trace_variable("w", callback)

slider = Tkinter.Scale(root,
                       from_ = 0.0,
                       to = 1.0,
                       resolution = 0.1,
                       variable = var,
                       orient   = 'horizontal')
slider.grid(sticky='ew')

root.mainloop()
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/attachments/20040819/51d0f1e8/attachment.html>

From dperl at rogers.com  Mon Aug 30 12:05:02 2004
From: dperl at rogers.com (Dan Perl)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:05:02 GMT
Subject: initializing mutable class attributes
References: <J4zYc.102357$UTP.98636@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<cgul4v$h1d$1@online.de>
	<sHGYc.93306$pTn.42032@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<29SdnfncSK8R3K7cRVn-sA@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <OeIYc.482$yqJ1.164@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>

Larry,

I don't think it is very different from what I suggested.  You still
implement an __init__ and you initialize the instance attributes there.

Thanks, though.  It's a nice trick and it's useful because you have a
default value that can be used also in other places in the code (like
restoring the default).  And it's probably a good use of pseudo-private
class attributes.

Dan

"Larry Bates" <lbates at swamisoft.com> wrote in message
news:29SdnfncSK8R3K7cRVn-sA at comcast.com...
> Dan,
>
> I too use class attributes to assign defaults, but do
> it like following:
>
> import copy
>
>     class Father:
>         _attr1default=None
>         _attr2default=[]
>
>         def __init__(self):
>             self.attr1=self._attr1default
>             # Get copy of attr2default
>             self.attr2=list(self._attr2default)
>
>          def foo(self, data):
>              self.attr1=data
>              self.attr2.append(data)
>
>
>      class Child (Father):
>          def __init__(self):
>              Father.__init__(self)
>              #
>              # At this point self.attr1 (instance)
>              # and self.attr2 (instance) hold their defaults
>              # while _attr1/_attr2default (class) still hold
>              # their default values for initialization of more
>              # class instances.
>              #
>
> HTH,
> Larry Bates
> Syscon, Inc.
>
>
> "Dan Perl" <dperl at rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:sHGYc.93306$pTn.42032 at news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> > I will clarify something that was probably not clear enough in my
initial
> > posting.  I am interested in instance attributes, but I am using the
class
> > attributes to provide a default, "null", value for the instance
> attributes.
> > Yes, the instance attributes only mask the class ones, but a class
> attribute
> > and an instance attribute can be used like this:
> >     class WorksForMe:
> >         attr=None        # used just as a default value for the instance
> > attribute self.attr
> >         def foo(self):
> >             self.attr=SomethingUseful( )
> >         def bar(self):
> >             if self.attr:
> >                 useIt(self.attr)
> >             else:
> >                 ignoreIt(self.attr)
> > This makes it safe for an instance of WorksForMe to invoke bar( ) even
if
> it
> > never invoked foo( ).
> >
> > "Benjamin Niemann" <b.niemann at betternet.de> wrote in message
> > news:cgul4v$h1d$1 at online.de...
> > > That's the way it is supposed to work. Instance attributes have to be
> > > initialized via self.foo=..., usually in __init__() which in turn is
> > > *STRONGLY* advised to class its parents __init__() - or you create
> > > instance attributes 'on-the-fly' when they are used for the first time
> > > (useful technique for mixin classes without constructor). Class
> > > attributes are initialized once for the class and are shared between
> > > instances.
> >
> > You are confirming the code I suggested but you don't share my view that
> > such code is awkward.  I think I I was actually conservative calling it
> > awkward, I would rather call it unsafe.  If I were a third-party library
> > vendor, I would not be comfortable providing a mixin class that forces
> users
> > to either invoke the parent's __init__ in their constructors or to
> > initialize the instance attributes on-the-fly.  The latter would even be
> > against the principles of encapsulation, users should not need to know
> about
> > the parent's attributes, especially because they may change in future
> > releases.  Both ways of restricting the use of the mixin class are
unsafe
> > because they are easy to be ignored by users.  And it is not only the
> users'
> > fault if they do not follow the restrictions, it is also my fault to put
> > such restrictions in the first place.
> >
> > I think this points to a weakness in Python as an OO language.  I'm not
> > trying to bash it, but my understanding is that Python is still evolving
> in
> > that respect and I think that this should be improved in the future.
> Then,
> > on the other hand, maybe I'm the only one feeling this way and there's
not
> > going to be a change.
> >
> > > "self.attr1=data" in Father.foo() doesn't "override" the Father.attr1
> > > attribute you defined before. It creates an instance attribute that
> > > shadows Father.attr1!
> > > Both attribute assignments in Father are OK - if you treat them as
class
> > > attributes. They won't become instance attributes by hidden magic.
> > >
> > > Dan Perl wrote:
> > > > There is something with initializing mutable class attributes that I
> am
> > > > struggling with.  I'll use an example to explain:
> > > >     class Father:
> > > >         attr1=None   # this is OK
> > > >         attr2=[ ]        # this is wrong
> > > >         def foo(self, data):
> > > >             self.attr1=data
> > > >             self.attr2.append(data)
> > > > The initialization of attr1 is obviously OK, all instances of Father
> > > > redefine it in the method foo.  But the initialization of attr2 is
> wrong
> > > > because all the instances of Father end up sharing the same value.
> > Maybe
> > > > that is desired sometimes, but usually it is just a bug.
> > > >
> > > > So the only solution I see to this is to initialize attr2 in
__init__:
> > > >     class Father:
> > > >         attr1=None
> > > >         def __init__(self):
> > > >             self.attr2=[ ]
> > > >
> > > > This is already awkward because there is such a difference between
> attr1
> > and
> > > > attr2.  But moreover, I think this forces subclasses of Father to do
> > > > something like this:
> > > >     class Child (Father):
> > > >         def __init__(self):
> > > >             Father.__init__(self)
> > > >             self.attr3=[ ]
> > > >
> > > > I find this even more awkward because many people will forget to do
> it.
> > > > Clearly, this is then a more general issue with __init__, but I
think
> it
> > is
> > > > accentuated by the fact that you HAVE TO HAVE __init__ in order to
> > > > initialize attributes that are mutable.
> > > >
> > > > Is there something I don't know here and there is a better way to do
> > this in
> > > > Python?  I would like to get a better solution or otherwise start a
> > > > discussion.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>




From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Sat Aug  7 07:01:55 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 07:01:55 -0400
Subject: Prothon is switching to the .NET platform
References: <000401c47b59$32539220$0d01a8c0@MarkVaio>
	<mailman.1257.1091769173.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061247130.22947-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<10h7lb21dhbuc12@news.supernews.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061533250.25906-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<10h7rittck6ct75@news.supernews.com>
	<cf1t0h$ond$03$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <10h9dkm5ub5h1f2@news.supernews.com>


"Peter Otten" <__peter__ at web.de> wrote in message
news:cf1t0h$ond$03$1 at news.t-online.com...
> John Roth wrote:
>
> >
> > "Christopher T King" <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote in message
> > news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061533250.25906-100000 at ccc8.wpi.edu...
> >> On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, John Roth wrote:
> >>
> >> > I think it's possible to do prototypes within Python by
> >> > overriding the __getattribute__() magic method. It still
> >> > wouldn't be very pretty, but it should be able to do
> >> > everything except override the magic methods (those
> >> > seem to have to be in the class object for new style
> >> > classes).
> >>
[snip]
> >
> > What I was thinking of was more along the lines of:
> >
> > class ProtoBaseClass(object):
> >     def __getattribute__(self, attr):
> >         # call object.__getattribute__(self, __dict__)
> >         # find requested attribute
>
> Wouldn't that part be implied if you used __getattr__() instead of
> __getattribute()?
>
> >         # if not found, loop through back pointer chain
> >         # if it's not a function, return the attribute
> >         # if it is a function, wrap it in a method object and return it.
>
> This means that an object sees all changes in its prototypes until
> explicitly assigned an attribute. Is this intentional? (real question, I'm
> not familiar with prototyped languages)

Actually, __getattribute__ sees all attribute requests, __getattr__
only sees requests where the attribute isn't found. The reason for
using __getattribute__ is that there are (I think) serious problems
with attempting to execute functions that weren't originally defined
in the base class or a subclass of the base class. In other words,
if the result is a function, there's more work that needs to be done,
and __getattr__ doesn't allow a hook to do it on the way out.

The attempt from 2000 I referred to attempted to get around this
by using a callable instance together with a lambda. Unfortunately,
it didn't work when I tried it, and as I said, after looking at the
code I don't think it ever worked. The workaround for the function
problem might work, though.

[snip]

>
> Peter
>




From mh at dreadnok.pixar.com  Wed Aug  4 14:16:18 2004
From: mh at dreadnok.pixar.com (Mark Harrison)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 18:16:18 GMT
Subject: guide to introspecting python?
References: <UVUPc.6122$AY5.373@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
	<nKGdnfqEjOuupo3cRVn-qg@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <SJ9Qc.485$NP1.256@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> Isn't the "inspect" standard module exactly what you need?

Yes it is... thanks!


From kristian_zoerhoff at sbcglobal.net  Fri Aug 13 09:46:39 2004
From: kristian_zoerhoff at sbcglobal.net (Kristian M Zoerhoff)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:46:39 GMT
Subject: Python and Weather.com
In-Reply-To: <M83Tc.9136$MD.2873@fe1.texas.rr.com>
References: <6491b0ab.0408121917.5103b770@posting.google.com>
	<M83Tc.9136$MD.2873@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3D3Tc.4$yj3.1006@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com>

Paul,

That's a pretty slick little script; another great contribution to the 
community!

--
Kristian


From luismg at gmx.net  Mon Aug  2 10:48:13 2004
From: luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 07:48:13 -0700
Subject: Starkiller?
Message-ID: <278de0e.0408020648.6d187aff@posting.google.com>

Does anyone have news about Starkiller?


From imbosol at aerojockey.com  Thu Aug 12 19:11:17 2004
From: imbosol at aerojockey.com (Carl Banks)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 16:11:17 -0700
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
	<60dfb6f6.0408111846.615ee9eb@posting.google.com>
	<3YWdnYxLf--ObofcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<cffbbu$amv$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk> <411ba1db$1@nntp.zianet.com>
Message-ID: <60dfb6f6.0408121511.10912a2f@posting.google.com>

Mark Bottjer <mark_bottjer at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<411ba1db$1 at nntp.zianet.com>...
> With this 
> syntax, though, the decorate block changes how the def statement is 
> handled, even though they are at the same indentation level.

That's a problem only if you think of decorate and def as separate
statements.  If, as with if...else and try...except, you think of
decorate...def as a single statement, then there is no problem.

-- 
CARL BANKS


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Fri Aug 27 17:11:09 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:11:09 -0700
Subject: my first class: Args
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408271601530.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <1093641585.312667@news.commspeed.net>

Looks just beautiful, I always leave docstrings out because of laziness. As
for quotes you don't need to put "" if you have nothing to say and python
lets you use 'single', "double", or even """the 'magnificent' triple "quote"
""" in code.

Tom




From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 30 16:15:44 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:15:44 -0400
Subject: Search for AVI file?
In-Reply-To: <ol17j0pdpiuubu6f9n5vpho4136vimsq6n@4ax.com>
References: <ol17j0pdpiuubu6f9n5vpho4136vimsq6n@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <FumdnfySkvZvF67cRVn-og@powergate.ca>

John Doe wrote:

> I realise that this is not really a python question, but python's the
> only language I'd be comfortable trying to deal with this.
> 
> What I need is to search a drive and find all the AVI format files
> that are NOT listed with the AVI extension.  I'm looking over an old
> drive of mine from an old computer.  I know the files were renamed
> with the wrong extension, but I know that they were originally AVI
> files.  Can python do this for me?  Any hints?  Anybody have a link to
> something that would already do this?  I appreciate any help.

Have you looked for and found information about the AVI file
format?  Google can help you with that.

You should easily be able to use Python to read the first
X bytes of a given file and check the signature to see if
it's likely an AVI file.  I'm sure there are exceptions
and new versions and such things, but if you have only
a bunch of "old" AVI files, it's quite possible they are
all detectable by doing something like checking that
bytes 0 through 3 are 'RIFF' and bytes 8 through 10 are
'AVI' (that info from a few handy sites on the AVI format).

Basically you could just open the file and do a .read(10)
and compare the result using slices, e.g. data[0:4] == 'RIFF'
and data[8:11] == 'AVI'.

-Peter


From http  Fri Aug 27 19:38:21 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 16:38:21 -0700
Subject: Alex Martelli: Welcome back!
References: <mailman.2534.1093623236.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj70sk.1o4cuwepco564N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7xfz68jgnm.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:
> Heh, thanks.  BTW, anybody interested in the readings we choose for our
> marriage (me and Anna, who's also going to be my coeditor for the Python
> Cookbook Second Edition) can have a look at http://www.aleax.it/mar.html


Hey, congratulations!


From gerrit.muller at embeddedsystems.nl  Wed Aug 18 08:30:19 2004
From: gerrit.muller at embeddedsystems.nl (Gerrit Muller)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:30:19 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <cfvi4r$bn7$1@news.tue.nl>

Most Python programmers I know are 40+. I am myself 47 (born in december 
1956).

regards Gerrit

P.S.,

how many teeners are still programming? Most teeners I know build 
websites, but they don't program.

-- 
Gaudi systems architecting:
<http://www.extra.research.philips.com/natlab/sysarch/>



From adurdin at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 08:19:40 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:19:40 +1000
Subject: iterators: class vs generator
In-Reply-To: <m3pt5fh347.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
References: <mailman.2305.1093385215.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<m3pt5fh347.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a040825051978250f04@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:24:41 GMT, Michael Hudson <mwh at python.net> wrote:
> 
> Here's a better illustration:
> 
> >>> def iterable_via_generator():
> ....     yield "one"
> ....     raise Exception()
> ....     yield "two"
> ....
> >>> i = iterable_via_generator()
> >>> i.next()
> 'one'
> >>> i.next()
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
>   File "<stdin>", line 3, in iterable_via_generator
> Exception
> >>> i.next()
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
> StopIteration


This is correct behaviour according to PEP 255:
"""
If an unhandled exception-- including, but not limited to,
StopIteration --is raised by, or passes through, a generator function,
then the exception is passed on to the caller in the usual way, and
subsequent attempts to resume the generator function raise
StopIteration.  In other words, an unhandled exception terminates a
generator's useful life.
"""


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 23 10:27:01 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:27:01 -0400
Subject: Has anyone implemented BASIC in Python?
In-Reply-To: <7xoel26w2n.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
References: <2oo13eFcj548U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<69cbbef2.0408210857.79439c35@posting.google.com>
	<7x657c8jmn.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<F5-dnWXt-twsE7rcRVn-hw@powergate.ca>
	<7xoel26w2n.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <qZCdnRsu76ChY7TcRVn-tQ@powergate.ca>

Paul Rubin wrote:
> Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> writes:
> 
>>>Dunno about Logo but I did Forth just out of general perversity.
>>>I suppose I could post it.
>>
>>Please do!
> 
> http://www.nightsong.com/phr/python/forth.py

Thank you, Paul.  Several others wrote to check if you had
sent anything to me privately, so there must be interest. :-)

(My interest stems from two areas: simple curiosity and the
possibility of using Forth as a "scripting" language for
some embedded systems at some point, and the thought
that a Python-based Forth could be used to allow PC-side
test-driven development.  Mostly I have the same curiosity
that led you to write it in the first place, but either
less time or more laziness. ;-)

-Peter


From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Sun Aug 15 22:02:00 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:02:00 -0400
Subject: Python secure?
In-Reply-To: <41200f06$0$65568$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<ZKRTc.3710$bJ2.23892@news1.mts.net>
	<6o75v1-p92.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<412009f1$0$8090$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<41200f06$0$65568$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <abadnVcaqasCiL3cRVn-ig@giganews.com>

Grant Edwards wrote:

> I've read up a bit, and I looks like I was wrong.  The mere act
> of creating a derived work is an infringement of copyright.
> The derived work doesn't have to be distributed for an
> infringment to have taken place.  Title 17 says

>    (2) to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;

Is a decompiled source code a 'derivate' work?

I always felt that meaning of 'derivative' is creating a piece a work
that is either very similar to or incorporates large sections of
an other piece of work.

The mere fact of using a binary file as the input to a
program does not mean that the output of this program is a
'derivative work' of the binary file.

I think the answer lies not in the copyright law but in
the license that was set by the program owner. If they forbid
decompilation that's their right to do so.

Istvan.







From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Sun Aug 22 10:57:47 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 14:57:47 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WE
	DONE?
References: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<t5idnRg0lMA7B7XcRVn-qA@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <ifchi0hqmhpag5umuukest5v4f2e73hjud@4ax.com>

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 08:07:53 -0500, Doug Holton <insert at spam.here>
wrote:

>Paul McGuire wrote:
>> Total voters: 55 
>> Of all of the votes cast, J2
>> received 48%, C1 received 18%.  No other option received more than 10% of
>> any votes.
>
>I vote 3 times for C1.  So just my one vote raises C1 to 20%.  I think 
>you need to do an online poll so you get more people than just those who 
>have been discussing the decorator keyword here this past week.  I got 
>over 250 votes for C1 just last week vs. the 22 who voted for J2 here.
>During this 2nd poll people were confused about whether they could vote 
>for A1 or not, and some people said many of the options on the wiki page 
>were not allowed anymore.
>

I think it should also be noted in the report of the voting results
that the a vote for "no new syntax at this time" was specifically
outlawed.  

As a side point:

It seems ironic to me that in a group devoted to an appreciation of
Python, and its advocacy - it is often those who reject the notion
that the language has the kinds of glaring weaknesses that require
some fundamental change ot it, that form the opposition to an
"establishment" that has become convinced quite otherwise.

I sometimes wish those folks were more candid about its deficiencies
before I started my study of it back in 1.5.2 days.

Art


From fperez528 at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  3 13:14:29 2004
From: fperez528 at yahoo.com (Fernando Perez)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 11:14:29 -0600
Subject: Re_: Best way to run ipython inside of emacs shell?
References: <4d642979.0408022332.4380ad23@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <ceoh5e$g1q$1@peabody.colorado.edu>

Yaroslav Bulatov wrote:

>> Equis Uno wrote:
>> 
>> > I use meta-x shell to start a shell and then once I see a shell
>> > prompt I enter the python command and I get a well-behaved python
>> > shell inside of emacs.
>> > 
>> > I'm trying to figure out the best way to run ipython inside of emacs.
> 
> I had the same problem. It has to do with ipython.el not finding the
> IPython executable.
> 
> To fix it, open ipython.el, and replace line
> (when (executable-find "ipython")
> with
> (when (executable-find "ipython.bat")
> 
> Next, add file ipython.bat to your path containing something like the
> following:
> C:\Python23\python.exe "C:\Program Files\IPython\IPython_shell.py"
> 
> Unfortunately it doesn't seem to work right on windows. The prompts
> are missing so it's almost unusable.

Are you having this problem with the emacs support stuff currently available
from the ipython site?  There's a special python-mode.el in there which is
different from the default one shipped with emacs (because the maintainers have
ignored Alex Schmolck's patches for a long time).

That might help (or not, I have no way of testing under windows, though I know
it works ok in unix).

Best,

f


From rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm  Sat Aug 28 03:47:13 2004
From: rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm (Roel Schroeven)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 07:47:13 GMT
Subject: allowing braces around suites
In-Reply-To: <1r3c28ejis.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87hdqok9i6.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1rfz68ely9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<876574k7du.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1r3c28ejis.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <5MWXc.228027$ht5.11749427@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote:
> [Isaac To]:
> 
>>  When Python is concerned and Emacs is not, Python only sees there
>>  is indentation, and only indentation, to define the suites.  And
>>  it is also what people will perceive when they stare at the code.
>>  There is nothing to be inconsistent with it.
> 
> 
> how long do you have to stare before spotting the bug?

Just the time needed to read the code.

>     db.update_name(person)
>     if is_student(person):
>         db.update_courses(person)
>         db.commit()
> 
> only students have their names updated.  I wonder why.

No offense, but I wonder why you have a problem with this code. IMO the 
indentation makes perfectly clear what's happening.

-- 
"Codito ergo sum"
Roel Schroeven


From mark at prothon.org  Sun Aug  8 18:11:59 2004
From: mark at prothon.org (Mark Hahn)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 15:11:59 -0700
Subject: Acquiring Prothon libraries [Was: Prothon is switching to the
	.NET platform]
References: <000401c47b59$32539220$0d01a8c0@MarkVaio>
	<mailman.1257.1091769173.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<11uq0duazp1vy.1g2zjz8xyfosl.dlg@40tude.net>
	<cf62ra$t6v$1@namru.matavnet.hu>
Message-ID: <1brh56r9w6713$.114chhbp8m6id$.dlg@40tude.net>

On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 22:35:43 +0200, Mikl?s wrote:

> Isn't it possible to automate or semi-automate the conversion of the Python
> libraries somehow?
> There must be a sensible mapping of class-based code to prototype-based
> code..

It's not classes versus prototypes.

When I looked at running CPython's libraries with Prothon earlier this year
it didn't look good.  The Python libraries were too tightly wrapped around
the Python language.  The CPython VM was not written to support multiple
languages as the CLR is.  Python extensions expect to be able to have any
and all of Python available at all times.

The best I could do would be to have the CPython interpreter running
embedded inside my Prothon interpreter and bridging calls from Prothon over
to Python.  This would not be efficient as it would require both VMs to run
side by side.  There would also be the overhead of translating between the
two.  Native threads would not be supported.  I pretty much gave up on the 
idea.



From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Fri Aug 20 14:22:57 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:22:57 +0200
Subject: How to clean python interpreter's environment?
In-Reply-To: <jL6dnT9_ZqaFo7vcRVn-oQ@powergate.ca>
References: <PPqVc.176$C7.35@amsnews05.chello.com>
	<jL6dnT9_ZqaFo7vcRVn-oQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <2omtogFck37uU1@uni-berlin.de>

Peter Hansen wrote:
> Rafal Kleger-Rudomin wrote:
>> I'm looking for a command to reset interpreter's environment i.e. unload 
>> all modules, delete variables etc.
> 
> If you're in the interactive interpreter, you should use
> the following command: ^Z (on Windows), or ^D (Linux).
> 
> (Translation: there's no existing command that does what
> you want.  Maybe describing your reason for wanting this will
> let people suggest alternative solutions.)

What about something like this:

def clear(keep=("__builtins__", "clear")):
    keeps = {}
    for name, value in globals().iteritems():
        if name in keep: keeps[name] = value
    globals().clear()
    for name, value in keeps.iteritems():
        globals()[name] = value

Reinhold

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From martin.vonloewis at hpi.uni-potsdam.de  Tue Aug 10 12:33:00 2004
From: martin.vonloewis at hpi.uni-potsdam.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:33:00 +0200
Subject: [Python-Dev] RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <4115D88F.8020802@v.loewis.de>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1196.1091715567.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cev7mj$lt6$1@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
	<4113429a$0$26993$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<cevs3k$386$1@news5.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
	<41137960.6050400@v.loewis.de>
	<cf056e$glb$1@news3.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
	<4113dddd$0$12507$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<cf361r$8jt$1@news1.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
	<4115D88F.8020802@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <4118F8BC.1080504@hpi.uni-potsdam.de>

Martin v. L?wis wrote:

> Yes, saw that. I'm not faulting you though - I do believe that the
> behaviour in this case should be improved somehow.

Ok, I have tried to reproduce this, and *now* I'm faulting you :-)
I thought that there was a special "restricted user" with less-than-
reasonable permissions. I usually have XP Pro in a domain only, so I
don't get to see this user interface. I have tried this out, and found
that a "restricted account" is just one where the user belongs to
the "Users" group (instead of belonging to the "Power Users" group).
Such a user can, by default, write to its own registry, and install
the MSI as planned (i.e. Privileged is false). Closing #1004837.

Regards,
Martin



From indigo at bitglue.com  Mon Aug 23 15:04:04 2004
From: indigo at bitglue.com (Phil Frost)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:04:04 -0400
Subject: Standard graph API?
In-Reply-To: <rVqWc.239552$OB3.207582@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <slrncik8tm.4g.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
	<rVqWc.239552$OB3.207582@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <20040823190404.GA21259@unununium.org>

+1 for standard graph API!

I don't have a "high-end" use for it, but I did write a program which
graphs the revision history of a software repository. It would have been
nice to have most of that code in a library, and if such a library
existed, it would probably implement operations I was too lazy to
implement, such as coloring.

On Mon, Aug 23, 2004 at 06:43:35PM +0000, wes weston wrote:
> Magnus Lie Hetland wrote:
> >Is there any interest in a (hypothetical) standard graph API (with
> >'graph' meaning a network, consisting of nodes and edges)? Yes, we
> >have the standard ways of implementing graphs through (e.g.) dicts
> >mapping nodes to neighbor-sets, but if one wants a graph that's
> >implemented in some other way, this may not be the most convenient (or
> >abstract) interface to emulate. It might be nice to have the kind of
> >polymorphic freedom that one has with, e.g, with the DB-API. One could
> >always develop factories or adaptors (such as for PyProtocols) to/from
> >the dict-of-sets version...
> >
> >So, any interest? Or am I just a lone nut in wanting this?
> >
> Magnus,
>    A know I'd appreciate it. It could be used to configure
> neural nets and logic networks; where this api would make
> it easy to build an abstraction then "compile" it into a
> faster representation for execution - or just run the
> tree/graph in "interpreted" mode.
>    I don't think it would get a lot of use, but the use
> would be high end.
> wes
> 
> -- 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From grante at visi.com  Thu Aug 26 22:08:29 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 02:08:29 GMT
Subject: A newbie in need....
References: <9c3edc58.0408261609.6640e400@posting.google.com>
	<412e91cc$0$62953$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <412e979d$0$65612$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-27, Grant Edwards <grante at visi.com> wrote:

>> Besides "curses" or "ncurses", is there a python module that
>> will create a graph?
>
> I never knew that [n]curses did graphing (and I've used it
> quite a bit).
>
> I use the Gnuplot module when I need to create a graph:
>
> http://gnuplot-py.sourceforge.net/

That's assuming you mean graph in the "plot of some data or a
function" sense of the word.  If you mean graph in the CS
"nodes and edges" sense, Gnuplot doesn't do that.  

But neither does [n]curses, so I'm still a bit confused. :/

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  I LIKE Aisle 7a.
                                  at               
                               visi.com            


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Sun Aug 22 13:03:00 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 19:03:00 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no>
	<ceu67e$ioa$00$1@news.t-online.com>
	<HBF.20040805npas@bombur.uio.no>
	<cev7rn$me7$01$1@news.t-online.com>
	<HBF.20040806aoi5@bombur.uio.no>
	<cf7rhs$kqh$04$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040822l1c0@bombur.uio.no>

Peter Otten wrote:
> Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
>>>>> The long-term goal would be unicode throughout, IMHO.
>>>> 
>>>> Whose long-term goal for what?  For things like Internet communication,
>>>> fine.  But there are lot of less 'global' applications where other
>>>> character encodings make more sense.
> 
> More sense? I doubt that. What does make sense is an api that abstracts from
> the encoding.

If the application knows which encoding it is so it can convert at all,
and is 'big enough' to bother with encoding back and forth, and the
encoding doesn't already provide what one needs such abstraction to do.

> You can then reduce the points where data in limited i. e.
> non-unicode encodings is imported/exported as the adoption of unicode grows
> without affecting the core of your app. IMHO chr(ord("a") - 32) is inferior
> to "a".upper() even in an all-ascii environment.

If you mean 'limited' to some other character set than Unicode, that's
not much use if the appliation is designed for something which has that
'limited' character set/encoding anyway.

>>> Here we disagree. Showing the right image for a character should be
>>> the job of the OS and should safely work cross-platform.
>> 
>> Yes.  What of it?
> 
> I don't understand the question.

I explained that in the next paragraph:

>> Programs that show text still need to know which character set the
>> source text has, so it can pass the OS the text it expects, or send a
>> charset directive to the OS, or whatever.

If you disagree with that, is that because you think of Unicode as The
One True Character Set which everything can assume is in use if not
otherwise specified?  That's a long way from the world I'm living in.
Besides, even if you have 'everything is Unicode', that still doesn't
necessarily mean UTF-8.  It could be UCS-4, or whatever.  Unicode or no,
displaying a character does involve telling the OS what encoding is in
use.  Or not telling it and trusting the application to handle it, which
is again what's being done outside the Unicode world.

>>> Why shouldn't I be able to store a file with a greek or chinese name?
>> 
>> If you want an OS that allows that, get an OS which allows that.
> 
> That was not the point. I was trying to say that the usefulness of a
> standard grows with its adoption.

And the thing about standards is that there are so many of them to
choose from.  Enforcing a standard somewhere in an environment where
that is not the standard is not useful.  Try the standard of driving on
the right side of the road in a country where everyone else drives on
the left side.  Standards are supposed to serve us, it's not we who are
supposed to server standards.

>>> I wasn't able to quote Martin's
>>> surname correctly for the Python-URL. That's a mess that should be
>>> cleaned up once per OS rather than once per user. I don't see how that
>>> can happen without unicode (only). Even NASA blunders when they have to
>>> deal with meters and inches.
>> 
>> Yes, there are many non-'global' applications too where Unicode is
>> desirable.  What of it?
> 
> I don't understand the question.

You claimed one non-global application where Unicode would have been
good, as an argument that there are no non-global application where
Unicode would not be good.

>> Just because you want Unicode, why shouldn't I be allowed to use
>> other charcater encodings in cases where they are more practical?
> 
> Again, my contention is that once the use of unicode has reached the tipping
> point you will encounter no cases where other encodings are more practical. 

So because you are fond of Unicode, you want to force a quick transition
on everyone else and leave us to deal with the troubles of the
transition, even in cases where things worked perfectly fine without
Unicode.

But I'm pretty sure that "tipping point" where no cases of non-Unicode
is no practical is pretty close to 100% usage of Unicode around the
world.

>> For example, if one uses character set ns_4551-1 - ASCII with {|}[\]
>> replaced with ??????, sorting by simple byte ordering will sort text
>> correctly.  Unicode text _can't_ be sorted correctly, because of
>> characters like '?': Swedish '?' should match Norwegian '?' and sort
>> with that, while German '?' should not match '?' and sorts with 'o'.
> 
> Why not sort depending on the locale instead of ordinal values of the
> bytes/characters?

I'm in Norway.  Both Swedes and Germans are foreigners.

>>>> In any case, a language's both short-term and long-term goals should be
>>>> to support current programming, not programming like it 'should be done'
>>>> some day in the future.
> 
> At some point you have to ask yourself whether the dirty tricks that work
> depending on the country you live in, its current orthography and the
> current state of your favourite programming language do save you some time
> at so many places in your program that one centralized api that does it
> right is more efficient even today.

Just that you are fond of Unicode and think that's the Right Solution to
everything, doesn't make other ways of doing things a dirty trick.

As for dirty tricks, that's exactly what such premature standardization
leads to, and one reason I don't like it.  Like Perl and Emacs which
have decided that if they don't know which character set is in use, then
it's the character set of the current locale (if they can deduce it) -
even though they have no idea if the data they are processing have
anything to do with the current locale.  I wrote a long rant addressed
to the wrong person about that recently; please read article
<HBF.20040808avqr at bombur.uio.no> in the 'PEP 263 status check' thread.

>>> If I were to add a switch to Python's
>>> string handling it would be "all-unicode".
>> 
>> Meaning what?
> 
> All strings are unicode by default. If you need byte sequences instead of
> character sequences you would have to provide a b-prefixed string.

I've been wondering about something like that myself, but it still
requires the program to be told which character set is in use so it can
convert back and forth between that and Unicode.  To get that right,
Python would need to tag I/O streams and other stuff with their
character set/encoding.  And either Python would have to guess when it
didn't know (like looking at the locale's name), or if it didn't
programmers would guess to get rid of the annoyance of encoding
exceptions cropping up everywhere.  Then at a later date we'd have to
clean up all the code with the bogus guesses, so the problem would
really just have been transformed to another problem...

-- 
Hallvard


From kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no  Fri Aug 27 21:20:13 2004
From: kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Torgrim Homme)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 03:20:13 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87hdqok9i6.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1rfz68ely9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<876574k7du.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1r3c28ejis.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<zILXc.54863$xi6.26091@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <1rllg0cb3m.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>

[Paul McGuire]:
>
>   As far as Python goes, I think bracelessness is one of its
>   defining features; if some day braces were to get included in
>   Python a la C or Java, then it will cease to be Python.

I find this attitude a little defensive.  Python has much more to
offer than just strict indentation.  although it's probably the
feature you notice first, it's not enough to make Python a superior
language.  after all, code in _any_ language written by a professional
will have strict indentation.  so it's just syntax.  the true
strengths of Python include its exception system, its class model and
instrospection.  it's a very flexible language, you can construct
classes on the fly, implement your own private attributes etc. etc.
combine this with a comprehensive library for doing many common tasks,
and you'll see the strength of Python, a strength no other scripting
language offers.


(I have to point out that my braces suggestion is _not_ a la C or
Java, since strict indentation is still required for every line of
code in the program.)
-- 
Kjetil T.


From aaronb at jhcs.co.uk  Mon Aug  9 15:32:36 2004
From: aaronb at jhcs.co.uk (Aaron Barclay)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:32:36 +0100
Subject: os.system prob
Message-ID: <4117D154.9040300@jhcs.co.uk>



Hello,

I am trying to send some commands via os.system but am getting tripped 
up by it stripping out the quote marks. I have:

program = "dcop klipper klipper setClipboardContents "
fileOut = '"test = FileOut(0, 
"/bobbleheads/shots/bh112_01/roto_neck/ramin/renders/test", "Auto");"'

The fileOut string must be enclosed with "'s and also contains several "'s.

So I put them togeter

command = program + fileOut
os.system(command)

My clipboard then contains

test = FileOut(0, 
/bobbleheads/shots/bh112_01/roto_neck/ramin/renders/test, Auto);

all of the " have been stripped out.

I need it to contain

"test = FileOut(0, 
"/bobbleheads/shots/bh112_01/roto_neck/ramin/renders/test", "Auto");"

any ideas?? 

ps - this may only work under KDE. If there are python specific commands 
to put things in the clip board
I can't find them??


Thanks in advance.



From sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au  Sat Aug  7 08:28:58 2004
From: sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au (Sam Holden)
Date: 7 Aug 2004 12:28:58 GMT
Subject: Paul Graham on Python hackers
References: <cf1p1f$ke0@odak26.prod.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.07.10.51.16.393303@teliko.net>
Message-ID: <slrnch9ioa.c0v.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>

On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 12:51:17 +0200, Zoltan Sekeres <zoltan at teliko.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 22:23:59 -0700, ellisjb wrote:
>> (In all seriousness I think python and java have a lot more in common than
>> python and perl.)
>
> This a flamebait, right? Otherwise I would be interested in the features
> which make Python similar to Java (shudder).

Magical @ symbols? :)

-- 
Sam Holden


From listserver at tdw.net  Fri Aug 20 14:11:38 2004
From: listserver at tdw.net (Tim Williams)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:11:38 +0100
Subject: Removing Email attachments
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E14@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
	<loom.20040820T184344-922@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <024e01c486e1$235604e0$506b81c2@twilliams>

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:17:11 +0100, Tim Williams <listserver at tdw.net> wrote:
>
> I need to take an email with none or more attachments,  remove attachments
> with certain file extensions and then send the remaining email onwards.
>
> The problem is that I can't find out how to remove single attachements,
(I
> can add new ones and/or  remove all) .
>
> Am I missing something,  or do I have to create a new email object  from
the
> remaining bits of the old one ?
>
> (I *have* googled)
>
> TIA

Easier than I thought :-)

here's a successful test I tried with the surrounding code removed.  It
needs needs a bit of error handling in real use,  but not much.

emailobj  = email.message_from_string(message_string)

def removeAttach(emailobj):
    if not emailobj.is_multipart():
        return
    new_payload = []
    removed = []
    old_payload = emailobj.get_payload()
    ext_list = ['ade', 'adp', 'pp', 'asx']

    for x in range(len(old_payload)):
        filename = old_payload[x].get_filename()
        if filename:
            ext = filename.split('.')[-1].lower()
        if not filename or not ext in ext_list :
            new_payload.append(old_payload[x])
        else:
            removed.append(filename)

    if removed:
        emailobj.set_payload(new_payload)



From martindemello at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 25 15:30:14 2004
From: martindemello at yahoo.com (Martin DeMello)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:30:14 GMT
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
	<dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
Message-ID: <aN5Xc.205341$M95.157379@pd7tw1no>

Dave Opstad <dave.opstad at agfamonotype.com> wrote:
> 
> But isn't the fact that the list is modified in place incidental to the 
> fact of sorting? One is an implementation detail, and the other is the 
> semantic meaning you're trying to express.

Nope, especially since objects are passed by reference. 

> In my opinion, it would make more sense to have:
> 
> [1, 3, 4, 2].sort() return [1, 2, 3, 4]
> (1, 3, 4, 2).sort() return (1, 2, 3, 4)
> '1342'.sort() return '1234'
> 
> and so on. As it is, we have sort working on lists but not on immutable 
> sequences, which is inconvenient at times.

This again would be a difference between sort() and sorted().

My main point is that returning None is pretty useless - it 'wastes' the
return value, and doesn't allow method chaining. Returning self allows
you to either use or discard the return value depending on whether
you're interested in it, whereas using None doesn't give you any choice.

martin


From atterdan at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 31 23:55:36 2004
From: atterdan at yahoo.com (John Doe)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 03:55:36 GMT
Subject: mbox mail handling
Message-ID: <pan.2004.09.01.03.53.08.117979@yahoo.com>

I'm looking for some help to:
access a /var/spool/mail/userbox, which should have 5 or more messages.

parse each message into mhlib.Message format. So I can pull docs and
pictures out of each mail message.

Anybody got a suggestion, two or three?





From kfarmer at thuban.org  Mon Aug 23 18:52:33 2004
From: kfarmer at thuban.org (Keith Farmer)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 15:52:33 -0700
Subject: advice for perl expert wanting to learn python
References: <slrncguga2.fcp.mordor@fly.srk.fer.hr>
	<cevpef$bku$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
Message-ID: <6d668d6.0408231452.44e2d14f@posting.google.com>

David Fraser <davidf at sjsoft.com> wrote in message news:<cevpef$bku$1 at ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>...
> Zeljko Vrba wrote:

> > And most important thing, how does Python deal with database connectivity?
> > Is there a single API (akin to DBI) for connecting to databases?

> I have used Oracle, SQLServer and Access via ADO - try adodpapi.sf.net 
> which is a wrapper for ADO to the Python DB-API.
> But note that you may well not be able to use any of this database stuff 
> from IronPython

Assuming you find yourself working with .NET -- as you would with
IronPython -- I would expect it to have access to the stock database
namespaces under whatever environment you're in: under MS's
implementation of .NET, System.Data.* (same under Mono?).  This would
be the most likely line, since there's a lot of prior work in .NET
that targets that namespace, including UI controls.

For documentation, search for "ADO.NET".  It's actually a pretty good
framework, and doesn't require a database connection to make use of it
(ie, you want an in-memory database, but don't need persistent
storage).

I don't know what Jim's planning to do with the Python db api, but
between the two, I'd personally use ADO.NET when available.  I'd
suggest the IronPython email list (www.ironpython.org) for more
information.


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Tue Aug 31 18:01:29 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 01 Sep 2004 00:01:29 +0200
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>
	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>
	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>
	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>
	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>
	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>
	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>
	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>
	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>
	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<e69d3ed2040 <HBF.20040830aznn@bombur.uio.no>
	<mailman.2638.1093904528.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040901iia9@bombur.uio.no>

Paul Morrow wrote:
>Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
>>Paul Morrow wrote:
>>> 
>>>I believe that we should think of assignments to __xxx__ attributes as 
>>>not being part of the function's body, but instead part of its 
>>>declaration, just as we do with its docstring.
>>>
>>>    def circum(diameter):
>>>        """This describe's foo."""
>>>        __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'
>>>        __version__ = '0.1'
>>>        __features__ = synchronized, memoized
>> 
>> 
>> I really, really don't like this idea.  Assignment in Python has quite
>> enough pitfalls already.  Please don't make it worse.  If it looks like
>> an assignment to a local variable, it should be an assignment to a local
>> variable.  
> 
> Actually, these look like assignments to local *magic* variables.
> There's the difference.

No, that's not the difference.  It's still different from how magic
variables behave in all other places.  (Class bodies, module bodies,
object attributes).  The difference is that magic variables in this
particular localtion is actually parsed differently from use of
variables other places, so the '=' operator (and what other operators?)
means something else.

> The double underscores before and after each name loudly proclaims
> that these variables are not like 'normal' variables.  They're special
> in some way.

No other magic variables are that special.  They all behave normally _as
variables_.  Other parts of Python react to them being set or reset, the
very variable assigments are quite normal.  Except for the name mangling
of __*__ instance variables, but that is a lot smaller exception than
changing the namespace of the assignment operator and the time at which
that operator is executed.

>> If we are going to invent a syntax for declaring function
>> attributes inside the function, why confuse the issue by making it look
>> like it does something else?
> 
> Because 1) adding new syntax should be resisted as much as possible
> (IMO),

If one can extend old syntax in an intuitive way, it's fine to reuse old
syntax.  When you extend old syntax to mean something counterintuitive,
it's far better to find a new syntax.  And while it may seem intuitive
to you, you may have noticed that it seems counterintuitive to a lot of
others.

> and 2) this style has parallels in both class definitions and 
> module definitions.

It parallels them as long as you don't think of how it works.  Once you
do think of how it works, it's completely different.  And you get a lot
of subtle differences to confuse the issue.

> Compare this class statement with the function def 
> above.
> 
>      class Oval(Circle):
>          """This describe's Oval."""
>          __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'
>          __version__ = '0.1'
>          __metaclass__ = M

Yes, I can compare that.  It's fine in a class body, which is executed
when the class definition is executed.  When I see it in a function
definition, I see a strange use of the assignment operator, which is
normally a 'run-time' operator, in a place where it not being executed
at run-time.

You keep displaying such examples as if they should make your point
self-evident.  Already several people have pointed out that they don't
see it at self-evident.  That might give you a clue that it isn't
self-evident.

>> It's true that it makes it look more like what __*__ attribute
>> assignment in class bodies does, but the simple fact is that class
>> bodies are executed when the class statement is executed, and function
>> bodies are not executed when the def statement is executed.  Now you
>> want part of the function bodies to be executed at def time, and part at
>> call time.
> 
> Maybe we just need to be clear as to which lines under the def statement
> constitute the function's /body/.

That's perfectly clear without your change.  Your change is confusing
the issue, by also using an operator which one (well, at least many of
us - not you, obviously) expects to be executed in the function body.

> The function's docstring gets
> assigned during processing of the def statement, therefore the docstring
> is apparently not part of the function body;

The function's doc string doesn't look like a statement, and even if it
one thinks it is one (which documentation handling somehow picks out
specially) it would be a no-op inside the function, so there is nothing
confusing about it.

BTW, I was all for having the function body extend further down - my
first decorator choice (before J2) would have been the
  def foo(...):
     ...decorators and doc string...
  some_keyword:
     ...body...

syntax.  Like you point out about __*__ assigments it stands out, but
it's even clearer, but it doesn't look like it would normally
dosomething else, so the uninitiated will have far less reason to wonder
what kind of voodoo is going on to make it do what it does.

> So why not have assignments to __xxx__
> variables also be part of the function's declaration.

Because it looks confusing.

> The distinctive appearance of these names helps remind us that they
> have special semantics.

And if we use another syntax, we won't need to be reminded about
anything, and there is nothing to be confused about.

>> __*__ assigments in class bodies can look a little confusing if you
>> don't think of how class declarations work, but it's perfectly simple
>> once you think of how they do work: (...)
> 
> Perhaps its just my experience with declarative programming languages,
> but I prefer thinking of __xxx__ assignments in a class as setting
> 'properties' of the class.  (...)

I prefer to try to think a bit like the language I'm using does.
At least for me it makes it far easier to keep things straight.

-- 
Hallvard


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 28 05:52:09 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:52:09 +0200
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xzn4gwgea.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7a1o.1a5d2q410jsn2kN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xisb4xnh5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7c1a.tfdm14p3hclcN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xd61benm9.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj82n3.1ylkr3nierngmN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgpj1l$i0f$06$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <1gj8848.1bouuroizku25N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Benjamin Niemann <pink at odahoda.de> wrote:
   ...
> Isn't the purpose of signatures that the importing program can trust the
> module? If it's implemented as you suggest, an attacker could just 
> inject path to an unsigned module into PYTHONPATH to fool a program. How

If the attacker is able to alter sys.path then it does not matter
whether zipfiles are even considered -- the attacker could simply
position a .pyc file early on the path.

> about something like
> 
> require_signature('mymodule')
> import mymodule

This could be made to work, but only if _every_ module was so checked
before importing it; otherwise, even just one unchecked module could
easily subvert __import__ or other aspects of the import hook mechanism.

So, if you're considering this approach, it makes more sense to switch
on module checking globally in an early phase of Python's startup
(because Python starts importing modules pretty early indeed).  New
conventions will also be needed for signature of .py, .pyc, .pyo, and
.so (or other binary DLLoid files containing Python extensions).

It appears to me that this is a project of orders of magnitude more work
than the original idea, which didn't assume the attacker could freely
alter sys.path, and protected only against altered or replaced zipfiles
specifically -- presumably files that have been legitimately placed on
the path by authorized agents.

> 
> or
> 
> import mymodule
> verify_module(mymodule)

Too late:'import mymodule' runs code in mymodule, shutting the barn door
after mymodule has tramped all over your system is little use.

> 
> Another question is, where to place (require|verify)_signature() (that
> could also take a CA key (or list of) as optional argument to only allow
> modules signed by this CA). It must not be imported from an untrusted
> module.
> The whole signing thing probably make only sense, if python and it's 
> stdlib can be trusted (=signed).

The stdlib Python (.pyc) parts could be moved into a .jar  (signed) just
as easily as into a .zip (unsigned).  The EXE and DLL's involved may be
quite a problem, though, since for those you're in the hands of the
operating system -- what could Python itself possibly do to stop an
altered Python.Exe from running?!

> 
> Or am I missing other useful applications of signed archives?

Remote distribution of code.  My program's startup checks if an updated
version of foobar.jar purports to be available, and if so downloads it
and places it where the previous version used to be.  Admittedly, in
this case, checking once and for all right after the download might work
better than checking after each and every import.  (Not sure why but
this reminds me of the old 'end to end approach' issue;-).

Unfortunately, Python currently doesn't have a working 'sandbox'
mechanism where code might run in a resricted way if it hadn't passed
all needed checks.  This lack, among other things, may certainly lessen
the usefulness of checks performed at (or, rather, just before) import
time.


Alex


From arambo314 at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 17 12:30:21 2004
From: arambo314 at hotmail.com (Arthur Rambo)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 09:30:21 -0700
Subject: Best programming language
References: <mailman.1718.1092639914.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cfpqlf$7sv$1@news.onet.pl>
	<mailman.1723.1092650117.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<873c2ndizt.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>
Message-ID: <533e1e03.0408170830.1b73dc3@posting.google.com>

There is no such thing as a "best programming language" of course. It
depends on your goals.

But yes, Ruby, Python and Scheme are very good at many things, and
especially (as mentioned recently by Paul Graham) at hacking and doing
conceptually complex things (as most dynamic languages).

Arthur

> Roman Suzi <rnd at onego.ru> writes:
> 
> > On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, lopex wrote:
> > 
> > >Roman Suzi wrote:
> > >
> > >> ;-)
> > >>
> > >> Just type into google
> > >> "best programming language"
> > >> and press (I am lucky)
> > >
> > >Ruby ?
> > 
> > This probably indicates that Python in not well enough described as "best"
> > for certain domains while Ruby isn't as humble ;-)
> > 
> > 
> the best language is of course Scheme 
> 
> Klaus Schilling


From CarolCarrot at sofsof.net  Tue Aug 17 19:05:41 2004
From: CarolCarrot at sofsof.net (Carol Carrot)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 17:05:41 -0600
Subject: mailman mailing list program
References: <PPidncd3ycQ1mbzcRVn-gg@comcast.com>
	<mailman.1758.1092684902.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Qb-dncqEe9nkjbzcRVn-uw@comcast.com>
	<m3u0v1y4g2.fsf@tanelorn.bandersnatch.org>
Message-ID: <eYidnUO6SZTfEr_cRVn-iA@comcast.com>

weekly summary!
Wahoo!!!!

"Nick Vargish" <nav+posts at bandersnatch.org> wrote in message
news:m3u0v1y4g2.fsf at tanelorn.bandersnatch.org...
> "Carol Carrot" <CarolCarrot at sofsof.net> writes:
>
> > now what is +1 QOTW.supposed to mean?
>
> Someone just voted for (+1) your statement as a Quote of the Week,
> which appears at the start of the weekly summary...
>
> Nick
>
> -- 
> #  sigmask  ||  0.2  ||  20030107  ||  public domain  ||  feed this to a
python
> print reduce(lambda x,y:x+chr(ord(y)-1),'
Ojdl!Wbshjti!=obwAcboefstobudi/psh?')




From paolo_veronelli at yahoo.it  Thu Aug 12 17:47:48 2004
From: paolo_veronelli at yahoo.it (paolo veronelli)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:47:48 +0200
Subject: PEP318
In-Reply-To: <eppstein-C5D7B8.14290712082004@news.service.uci.edu>
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<20040812090056.00001e31@titan>
	<7ttmh0t8c3cogtbhhnp1ohqu8b51pda461@4ax.com>
	<eppstein-09AC84.10350212082004@news.service.uci.edu>
	<f3inh0d3l3uikpd3t914kv05a2fnkvhqvq@4ax.com>
	<eppstein-C5D7B8.14290712082004@news.service.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <opscm2tykfdgjose@mail.yahoo.it>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:29:07 -0700, David Eppstein <eppstein at ics.uci.edu> 
wrote:

> In article <f3inh0d3l3uikpd3t914kv05a2fnkvhqvq at 4ax.com>,
>  Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
>
>> >Also, it's not in the Zen of Python, but maybe declarative is better
>> >than imperative?
>>
>> Starting now, I guess. ;)
>
> Well, I think starting with list comprehensions in place of imperative
> append-loops.

I don't think there is a clear similarity,in fact I don't have any 
declarative feeling when I use list comprehension,for me it's a shortcut.
With decorators before defs I have a new feeling,but not the good 
declarative one I have with haskell (which would be nice to melt with).
I'm not erudite enough to explain it anyway.

	Paolino


-- 
....lotta dura  per la verdura



From wweston at att.net  Sun Aug 22 23:53:15 2004
From: wweston at att.net (wes weston)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 03:53:15 GMT
Subject: Making different things equal
In-Reply-To: <cgah0v$aio$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>
References: <cga9ha$4rl$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<Td3Wc.496441$Gx4.133939@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
	<cgah0v$aio$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <LSdWc.499640$Gx4.246971@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>

M. Clift wrote:
> Hi Wes,
> 
> Thanks for looking at this! I appreciate your effort.
> 
> The system works very well, but I want it to see Bob as being the same thing
> as Mary. So for example it won't give [Bob, whoever, Mary] as that would be
> the same as [Mary, whoever, Mary] or [Bob, whoever, Bob].
> 
> M
> 
> 

M,

 >>> list = ['Bob', 'whoever', 'Mary']
 >>> synonyms = ['Bob', 'Mary']
 >>> if synonyms[0] in list and synonyms[1] in list:
...     print "synonyms"
...
synonyms
 >>>

 >>> list.remove(synonyms[1])
 >>> list
['Bob', 'whoever']
 >>>

wes



From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Thu Aug 19 23:04:32 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:04:32 -0400
Subject: html templates
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1998.1092968486.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1998.1092968486.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2ol7s0Fbn8qoU1@uni-berlin.de>

Ajay wrote:
> i am looking for a framework to create a fast dynamic website. between
> using Cheetah and HTMLTemplate which would you recommend?

I'm using Cheetah for a project, and I love it. I've never tried 
HTMLTemplate, though.


From Ian.Sparks at etrials.com  Wed Aug 18 14:58:55 2004
From: Ian.Sparks at etrials.com (Ian Sparks)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:58:55 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
Message-ID: <41A1CBC76FDECC42B67946519C6677A901915288@pippin.int.etrials.com>

> Started programming at about 7 with BBC BASIC IV

Ah.. BBC BASIC. 

What a great machine the old Beeb was. Shame we didn't have python back then, imagine how different life could have been!



> -----Original Message-----
> From: simo [mailto:simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 2:52 PM
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Re: age of Python programmers
> 
> 
> 26, been Python'ing for 2 years or so.
> 
> Started programming at about 7 with BBC BASIC IV
> -- 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 


From aranders at insightbb.com  Sat Aug  7 13:51:22 2004
From: aranders at insightbb.com (Alan Anderson)
Date: 7 Aug 2004 10:51:22 -0700
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>	<opsb9g3hjudgjose@mail.yahoo.it>
	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2-SdnZCwNs1SwI_cRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>
	<53449fcb.0408062139.7dbbeb4d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <53449fcb.0408070951.3f3fae62@posting.google.com>

aranders at insightbb.com (Alan Anderson) wrote:
> Pardon me for jumping in,...

(And pardon me for using a hotel-provided wireless network which was
malfunctioning badly last night, causing it to tell me repeatedly that
the connection failed when my post had actually gone through.  DopDaq
qul yIchenmoH QobDI' ghu'.)


From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Mon Aug 30 09:44:38 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 15:44:38 +0200
Subject: Getting other file permissions
References: <cgv215$pp4$04$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <cgvb03$pub$00$1@news.t-online.com>

Florian Lindner wrote:

> Hello,
> on a Unix System I want to get the file permissions for other. How to get
> this? Is os.stat("file").st_mode the right way? How to interpret the
> output?

man 2 stat

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Mon Aug  2 15:10:00 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 02 Aug 2004 21:10:00 +0200
Subject: __coerce__ vs. new-style classes
References: <HBF.20040802t150@bombur.uio.no>
	<10gstrc1n27m8e8@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040802pmad@bombur.uio.no>

John Roth wrote:
>"Hallvard B Furuseth" <h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no> wrote in message
>news:HBF.20040802t150 at bombur.uio.no...
>> Why do new-style classes disable __coerce__()?
>> It seems cumbersome to have to write a whole set of methods (e.g.
>> __add__, __radd__, etc.) to get the same effect.  Is there some way to
>> automatically generate those methods, or are we simply not supposed to
>> do coercion for some reason?
> 
> I'm mildly confused by your example. __coerce__()
> converts the arguements to a common type, and then
> presumably requests that type to do the operation. That
> type might not be one of the two original types!
> 
> It's not the same thing as the __op__, __rop__
> pair. That simply allows the right object to do the
> operation if the left object can't.

Yes:

>>> class DeferredIntType:
...     def __init__(self, fetch, *args, **kwargs):
...         def _fetch():
...             v = long(fetch(*args, **kwargs))
...             self.value = lambda: v
...             return v
...         self.value = _fetch
...     def __long__(self):         return self.value()
...     def __int__(self):          return int(self.value())
...     def __str__(self):          return str(self.value())
...     def __coerce__(self, other):
...         if isinstance(other, (int, long)):
...             return type(other)(self.value()), other
... 
>>> DeferredIntType(len, 'foobar') + 3
9

Can't add two of them without __add__ & co, but can do just about
everything else just by writing four small methods.

If I do include __add__ & co, they won't all have to coerce the
arguments 'by hand', or worry about what to do if they don't know
how to add the type of argument they received.

Without __coerce__, what should __add__(self, other) do if it doesn't
know how to add the arguments, but the other argument might know how?
It can't just call other.__radd__(self): That might give up and call
__add__ again.
In some cases it might help to call coerce() by hand, but I note the
ref manual says 'In Python 3.0, coercion will not be supported.'.

> The notion of type coercion makes a great deal of sense
> in languages such as C, where you have 8 integer types
> and 3 float types, but abstracting it out as a separate
> operation makes very little sense in Python, where you
> have 3 numeric types (int, long and float) and two string
> types (normal and unicode). The overhead of doing
> coercion as a separate operation simply doesn't make
> a lot of sense.

Well, I was thinking of types like the above, which emulate
numeric types.  The case which got me started was one which
emulates the DECIMAL (or NUMERIC) SQL type in PgSQL.py.

> At least, that's the way I understand it. Section 3.3.8
> (Coercion Rules) of the 2.3 Language Reference gives
> the official reasons for moving away from doing coercion
> as part of operations. It simply got to complex to
> document properly.

I noticed that; I hadn't realized it was the argument for disabling
coercion completey.

-- 
Hallvard


From narshe at gmail.com  Sun Aug  1 17:01:03 2004
From: narshe at gmail.com (Josh Close)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 16:01:03 -0500
Subject: language/distro preferences
In-Reply-To: <opsb1xhjpz1v4ijd@musicbox>
References: <mailman.967.1091200517.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<opsb1xhjpz1v4ijd@musicbox>
Message-ID: <4a0cafe2040801140119fdf0ea@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, PHP is very annoying that way.

-Josh

On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 13:42:45 +0200, Pierre-Fr?d?ric Caillaud
<peufeu at free.fr> wrote:
> 
>         I use Gentoo. Their portage system is really, really good. Being able to
> download and install programs and all their dependencies, using my
> compilation options... that makes life so much simpler...
> 
>         And about PHP, I hate it. The language is so weak. Nothing is OO. The
> libraries are inconsistentand everything is in a big mess, due to the
> absence of namespaces.
> 
>         I guess this is best illustrated by the following example :
> 
>         Python #1:
>         if char in string:
>                 do stuff
> 
>         if item in array:
>                 do stuff
> 
>         Python #2:
>         print mystuff.getsomestuff().getsomeattribute().getname().capitalize()
> 
>         PHP #1:
>         Um, which of the 50 string functions should I use ? (lookup help).
>         Um, I don't remember, should I put the haystack or the needle first ? It
> depends on which function you choose.
>         Um, does it return false, O, -1, or null on failure ? (It depends on
> which function you choose)
>         Um, what's the function name for an array ? is it find_array or
> array_find or in_array or array_has_key ? mmm... what if the key is a
> string... is it a different function... mmm
> 
>         PHP #2 :
>         $temp = $mystuff->getsomestuff();
>         $temp = $temp->getsomeattribute();
>         echo strtocap or somthing( $temp->getname(); )
> 
>         You get it ?
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:15:14 -0500, Josh Close <narshe at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I saw a question in a PHP list about the differences between php and
> > perl, and what the advantages between the two are, but I think I was
> > the only person that mentioned anything about python in the
> > discussion.
> >
> > This makes me wonder what the python group things about these other
> > languages.
> >
> > Python vs. Perl. vs. PHP vs. C# (and other .NET languages) vs. Java
> > vs. C vs. C++ vs. whatever other language you can think of.
> >
> > I think python is the king of command line. It's way faster than PHP.
> > It's OO and has exceptions which perl doesn't, and PHP supports very
> > poorly.
> >
> > I won't touch Perl with a 10 ft. pole anymore. No need.
> >
> > PHP I still use for web. Mod_python isn't the easiest language to
> > write fast web pages in.
> >
> > I think Java is just terrible. Very very slow. It has a nice size
> > library, but I really don't care :P.
> >
> > C and C++ are cool, but take a lot longer to develop in.
> >
> > I actually like C# quite a bit. I think it's good for windows use and
> > asp.net. I've seen all the ranting about how much everyone hate's it,
> > so I won't say any more.
> >
> > This brings up the question about linux distributions. Which one and
> > why? I use Gentoo and I think there is nothing better. It's way more
> > configurable than any other distro. Portage is by far the best package
> > management system out there. Gentoo makes administration life so much
> > easier. When I've used redhat in the past (not by choice), I've had to
> > install most programs by hand because I either couldn't find a stupid
> > rpm for it, or there wasn't a new enough version rpm available. Yes,
> > they install instantly, but they are not as up to date or
> > configurable. I've used suse a little and didn't like it. If I were to
> > try any other distro, it would probably be linux from scratch. Gentoo
> > has made my life so much better. I could go on and on..... but I
> > won't.
> >
> > Just curious what the python world uses and why.
> >
> > -Josh
> 
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From shalabh at cafepy.com  Fri Aug  6 18:25:52 2004
From: shalabh at cafepy.com (Shalabh Chaturvedi)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 15:25:52 -0700
Subject: Decorator syntax
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051601580.14462-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
References: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA1A@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>	<mailman.1226.1091731685.5135.python-list@python.org>	<bLWdnTsjYbTiDI_cRVn-vg@giganews.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051601580.14462-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <cf10f5$s0l$1@sea.gmane.org>

Christopher T King wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Istvan Albert wrote:
> 
> 
>>The disagreement is caused by trying to achieve a lot of different
>>things with one feature.
>>
>>Thus the solution that is emerging is to cram everything in
>>front of the function definition.
> 
> 
> Agreed!  Exactly!  Most of what people seem to want from decorators are 
> a way to specify function types, do type checking, and give functions 
> attributes / metadata.  As I've said before, these are seperable problems 
> and should be treated as such.  What little left over that can 
> benefit from general-purpose decoraters will likely not be enough to form
> a major use case.
> 

I'd disagree and say Python gets it power from using simple constructs 
that can be reused in different ways rather than a different construct 
for each special case. I'd rather look at one place to find everything 
that's munging a function rather than three different places.

--
Shalabh



From sholden at holdenweb.com  Tue Aug 31 09:16:02 2004
From: sholden at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:16:02 -0400
Subject: has_method
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2664.1093957984.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2664.1093957984.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <41347A12.6020203@holdenweb.com>

Gandalf wrote:
> 
>  Hi All!
> 
> Does anyone knows how to tell if an object has a method with a given 
> name? How can I access that method?
> 
> For attributes, it is easy:
> 
> class A(object):
>    a = 12
>    b = 'Python'
> 
> a = A()
> a.__dict__.has_key('a')   # True
> a.__dict__.has_key('b')   # True
> a.__dict__.has_key('c')   # False
> 
> But it won't work for methods. Thanks in advance.
> 
>  Laci 2.0
> 
> 
Well, one way is try/except:

try:
    a.someMethod(arg1, arg2)
except AttributeError:
    print "Aarrgghh!"

regards
  Steve


From ville at spammers.com  Thu Aug  5 17:15:21 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 06 Aug 2004 00:15:21 +0300
Subject: Decorator syntax
References: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA1A@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>
	<mailman.1226.1091731685.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<bLWdnTsjYbTiDI_cRVn-vg@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <du7fz71qoba.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Istvan" == Istvan Albert <ialbert at mailblocks.com> writes:

    Istvan> And that's the problem. The example and motivation in
    Istvan> PEP318 are both vague and misleading. The disagreement is
    Istvan> caused by trying to achieve a lot of different things with
    Istvan> one feature.

Having a separate feature for all the desirable functonality would be
pure madness. Having maximum functionality with minimum features is
good IMO.


-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From nospam at nospam.com  Thu Aug 12 18:01:16 2004
From: nospam at nospam.com (3c273)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:01:16 -0700
Subject: Pyhton Interpreter Startup time
References: <mailman.1556.1092304607.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121103110.4649-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<cfgc7t$8fb$1@panix1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <cfgpbc02iue@enews2.newsguy.com>

"Aahz" <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote in message
news:cfgc7t$8fb$1 at panix1.panix.com...
> In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121103110.4649-100000 at ccc8.wpi.edu>,
> Christopher T King  <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote:
*snip*
> >
> >You can then run the compiled version using 'python my_script.pyc'
> >('python my_script.py' will ignore the compiled version).
>
> That's a Bad Idea.
*snip*

Hello,
I'm pretty new to Python and programming in general but I have done this
before. Why is this a bad idea?
Also (maybe not the right place to ask, but...), I was thinking of driving
up to BayPiggies because I am interested in tonights discussion but it's a
long drive and I'm afraid it would be way over my head. Do you get a lot of
newbie participants? Thanks for your input.
Louis




From rho at see.signature.invalid  Tue Aug  3 23:02:21 2004
From: rho at see.signature.invalid (Nigel Rowe)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 13:02:21 +1000
Subject: Overhead of (was Reasoning behind) nested scope
References: <mailman.1087.1091532385.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ceo852$9go$00$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <10h0kducrd2fod3@news.supernews.com>

Peter Otten wrote:

> Andy Baker wrote:
> 
>> (On a side note is there any way to call a nested function from outside
>> the parent? I was kind of expecting nested functions to be addressable
>> through dot notation like methods are but I can see why that wouldn't be
>> quite right. This might be a better question for the tutor list...)
> 
> When you are nesting functions, you don't get one function sitting inside
> another function. Instead, the function creation code of the "inner"
> function is executed every time to the effect that you get a new inner
> function every time you call the outer one:
> 
>>>> def make():
> ...     def f(): return "shoobidoo"
> ...     return f
> ...
>>>> f1 = make()
>>>> f2 = make()
>>>> f1(), f2()
> ('shoobidoo', 'shoobidoo')
>>>> f1 is f2
> False
> 
> You wouldn't do that in cases like the above, when you get nothing in
> return for the extra overhead, but somtimes nesting is useful - because of
> the change in the scoping rules you now get readonly-closures:
> 
>>>> def make(s):
> ...     def f(): return s
> ...     return f
> ...
>>>> f1 = make("now")
>>>> f2 = make("what")
>>>> f1(), f2()
> ('now', 'what')
> 
> Peter

What work is actually done when the 
        'nested function creation code of the "inner" function'
is executed?

Given a quick test:-
<code>
def outer():
    def inner():
        pass
    return inner

b1 = outer()
b2 = outer()

attrs=[a for a in dir(b1) if not a.startswith('_')]
for a, a1, a2 in zip(attrs,
                     [getattr(b1,a) for a in attrs],
                     [getattr(b2,a) for a in attrs]):
    print a, a1 is a2

</code>
<result>
func_closure True
func_code True
func_defaults True
func_dict True
func_doc True
func_globals True
func_name True
</result>

it appears that all the components of the inner function are the same, which
just leaves the binding of the code object to 'inner'.

Am I missing something, or is the overhead no worse than, say, foo=self.foo,
where self.foo is a method?


-- 
        Nigel Rowe
        A pox upon the spammers that make me write my address like..
                rho (snail) swiftdsl (stop) com (stop) au


From avaeq at avaeq.nl  Thu Aug 19 06:04:15 2004
From: avaeq at avaeq.nl (avaeq)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:04:15 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <mailman.1937.1092903657.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnci8vkf.f5b.avaeq@mitsai.nl>

Turning 20 in 2 weeks. My first steps in programming were with basic on
a 286 machine my dad got me. That didn't really do it for me, so I got
myself a Turbo Pascal book. 
Much later (when we finally got internet) I learned more, started with
PHP to build websites (which i still do, for some money to finance my
expensive student-life). Then I started to learn Perl, but never got far
with that one, because I discovered Python half a year ago. Learned the
basics in a day, programmed an IRC-bot that very same day. I love
python, and I'm certainly going to continue learning it (:

-- 
avaeq


From nzanella at cs.mun.ca  Fri Aug 20 13:48:47 2004
From: nzanella at cs.mun.ca (Neil Zanella)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 10:48:47 -0700
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
References: <mailman.1991.1092960665.5135.python-list@python.org>	<roy-4FE900.21540719082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.2020.1092995114.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b68d2f19.0408200948.4939073@posting.google.com>

Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.2020.1092995114.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> Roy Smith wrote:
> > 
> > I never quite understood the point of static methods inside classes.  
> > When would you ever need to do that, as opposed to just a function in a 
> > module?  In Java's "everything is part of a class" philosophy, it makes 
> > sense, but in Python?
> 
> It gives us another means of managing namespaces.  Rather than having to 
> create a top-level function in the current (or some other) module, we 
> can group it with other related functions as a method in a class.

This is one reason for using staticmethod. However, as I pointed out, there
is another even better reason. It allows you to use the polymorphism feature
(as in C++ virtual functions) on class objects without having to create class
instances (as would be necessary in C++). For instance, you can have a
superclass with 20 staticmethods with default behavior, and 40 subclasses
each ovrriding 5 of these staticmethods on average and using the default
for the rest.

To summarize, here are the two reasons to use staticmethod:

1. You want to group a bunch of functions together. However, as it happens
   such functions are not useful outside of a given class, so you use
   staticmethod to place them where they belong. Perhaps you do not
   have enough such functions to warrant their placement inside a
   module of its own.

2. You need to use inheritance and polymorphism but you don't need instances,
   or perhaps you simply need instance independent polymorphism at the class
   level.

Now if anyone wishes to add to the list, you're more than welcome.

Regards,

Neil


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sat Aug 28 04:11:46 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 18:11:46 +1000
Subject: Question about references/copies
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.28.07.52.35.422774@gmx.de>
References: <pan.2004.08.28.07.52.35.422774@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082801116482e5c1@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:52:36 +0200, Henning Kage <c0dec at gmx.de> wrote:
> I'm using Python only for some months now and I'm wondering, whether such
> assignments as above are creating bitwise copies of an object or just
> recieve a reference. That means I wanted to know, wheter Python in general
> differs between references and copies:

It's all references. If you want a copy, use the copy module.

> class someclass:
>   def __init__( self, otherobject):
>     self.someattribute = otherobject
> 
> And my second question is, whether I should use a cast in such cases or
> not (I know, a cast isn't mandatory here...)

A cast? Python has no static typing, so I'm unsure how or why you'd do a cast.


From David.Vaughan at Gifford.UK.com  Fri Aug 20 07:48:41 2004
From: David.Vaughan at Gifford.UK.com (David Vaughan)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:48:41 +0100
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
Message-ID: <C59AEFCA2D33284B8EE3C0A8C8C9004A0FB6E0@kiwi>


My vote is: J2 J2 F

(but, again, maybe a different keyword for J2?)

David Vaughan


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Sat Aug 21 15:38:31 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 19:38:31 GMT
Subject: Parsing C header files with python
References: <873c2gzftf.fsf@emit.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <XwNVc.8118$Jn5.3133@fe1.texas.rr.com>

"Ian McConnell" <ian at emit.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:873c2gzftf.fsf at emit.demon.co.uk...
> I've got a header file which lists a whole load of C functions of the form
>
>   int func1(float *arr, int len, double arg1);
>   int func2(float **arr, float *arr2, int len, double arg1, double arg2);
>
> It's a numerical library so all functions return an int and accept varying
> combinations of float pointers, ints and doubles.
>

If regexp's give you pause, try this pyparsing example.  It makes heavy use
of setting results names, so that the parsed tokens can be easily retrieved
from the results as if they were named attributes.

Download pyparsing at http://pyparsing.sourceforge.net.

-- Paul


------------------------
from pyparsing import *

testdata = """
  int func1(float *arr, int len, double arg1);
  int func2(float **arr, float *arr2, int len, double arg1, double arg2);
  """

ident = Word(alphas, alphanums + "_")
vartype = Combine( oneOf("float double int") + Optional(Word("*")), adjacent
= False)
arglist = delimitedList( Group(vartype.setResultsName("type") +
                                ident.setResultsName("name")) )
functionCall = Literal("int") + ident.setResultsName("name") + \
                    "(" + arglist.setResultsName("args") + ")" + ";"

for fn,s,e in functionCall.scanString(testdata):
    print fn.name
    for a in fn.args:
        print " -", a.type, a.name

------------------------
gives the following output:

func1
 - float* arr
 - int len
 - double arg1
func2
 - float** arr
 - float* arr2
 - int len
 - double arg1
 - double arg2




From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Fri Aug  6 06:09:44 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 06 Aug 2004 12:09:44 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no> <4112AC7B.1060508@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806egka@bombur.uio.no> <411343D7.3020604@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806c08y@bombur.uio.no> <411353A3.8090502@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040806beaz@bombur.uio.no>

Martin v. L?wis wrote:
>Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
>>>The coding declaration was only acceptable because
>>>- a statement would have to go before the doc string, in
>>>   which case it would not have been a docstring anymore, and
>> 
>> 
>> Hmm...
> 
> You misunderstood. I was talking about the module docstring
> 
> "Written by Martin v. L?wis"

So if the file has -*- coding: iso-8859-1 -*-, how does that doc string
look to someone using a iso-8859-2 locale?

I would think such doc strings should be u"""...""" strings.
(After the help function is fixed:-)

> directive encoding "utf-8"
> "Written by Martin v. L?wis"
> 
> Here, the string is not a docstring anymore, because it is
> not the first expression in the module.

Just like a str7bit directive, in whatever form, would not catch the
missing u in front of the doc string.

>> Still, how about 'directive str7bit', 'directive -W::str7bitWarning' or
>> something?
> 
> See PEP 244. I would have liked a directive statement, but the PEP was
> rejected (in favour of __future__ imports, at that time).
> 
> A future import might work, except that this is a commitment that
> the future comes some day, which, for str7bit, would not be the case:
> there will *always* be a possibility to put non-ASCII bytes into 8-bit
> strings

Yup.

> (of course, requiring that people use escape sequences for
> them might be acceptable).

Argh!  Please, no.

> In any case, you probably have to write a PEP for this.

I will.

-- 
Hallvard


From davidf at sjsoft.com  Fri Aug 20 10:39:45 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:39:45 +0200
Subject: Newbie to XML in Python
In-Reply-To: <cg50qi$52p$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
References: <cg50qi$52p$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
Message-ID: <cg52fi$7si$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

Jens Thiede wrote:
> XML in Python doesn't seem easy or intuitive. All I need to do, is to 
> interpret a small piece of XML in which I store data for the contents of 
> an autorun menu. What is the quickest/most effective way to do this?
> 
> What should I use for this; SAX or DOM - and which parser of ether one, 
> or niether (if there is a third option)?
> 
> What are your views,
> 
> Jens.

Hi Jens

I use elementtree for this. If you want have a look at ooswitchlang in 
the translate.sourceforge.net cvs - src/translate/tools directory :-)

David


From paolo_veronelli at yahoo.it  Fri Aug  6 06:18:12 2004
From: paolo_veronelli at yahoo.it (paolo veronelli)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 12:18:12 +0200
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed20408050904431bb49a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<opsb9g3hjudgjose@mail.yahoo.it>
	<e69d3ed20408050904431bb49a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <opsca2wmxrdgjose@mail.yahoo.it>

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 02:04:34 +1000, Anthony Baxter 
<anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:

>> This is a bad joke after all the strong perplexities showed about its
>> decorators solution.
>> I vote against the "@decorator before function" solution.
>
> Please feel free to actually provide reasons for not liking @decorators.
>
> Also - if you think you don't like it - please _try_ _it_ _out_ first.

My vote which is nothing really important is only for syntax .
1) I don't want strange looking operators:
	This is one why I use python like all: readability.Use a keyword like 
decorated
	(are they decorations or this is an unfortunate word?)
2) I like things in the right places:
	What is doing that thing before the def.
	Def keyword is not only there for the interpreter,is there also for 
me.Eventually how would I change my editor folding engine ???
	Python is nice for tired of uglynesses programmers.I use it for personal 
meditation ,spending a lot of time in making the code
	beautiful 	for my eyes,and when I teach it everybody agrees about the 
thoughts ,hardly asking what's this symbol
	or that construct?

Linearity is a must for human written code,the only thing will make it 
reusable by them.

		

-- 
....lotta dura  per la verdura



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sat Aug 28 02:29:33 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 16:29:33 +1000
Subject: allowing braces around suites
In-Reply-To: <PNRXc.38107$v86.26916@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no><e69d3ed204082708585d615e54@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.2551.1093656430.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PNRXc.38107$v86.26916@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082723294d4329b6@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 02:07:43 GMT, Paul McGuire
<ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> wrote:
> "Kjetil Torgrim Homme" <kjetilho at ifi.uio.no> wrote in message
> news:mailman.2551.1093656430.5135.python-list at python.org...
> > I'll write a PEP, but it will have to wait until next week.  thank you
> > for your feedback!
> >
> Kjetil -
> 
> I hate to see you waste the effort.  

I don't think it's a waste of effort. Once a PEP has been written and
rejected, future discussions on the subject can be pointed at the PEP.


From robey at slash_dev_slash_random.org  Wed Aug 18 17:48:26 2004
From: robey at slash_dev_slash_random.org (Robey Holderith)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:48:26 -0500
Subject: Embedding Python in Python
References: <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
	<mailman.1890.1092854122.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<pan.2004.08.18.19.56.03.842836@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
	<mailman.1896.1092857272.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.18.21.48.26.254719@slash_dev_slash_random.org>

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:27:50 -0400, Phil Frost wrote:

> No. An easy way to escape that is to start one's code with
> 'del __builtins__', then python will add the default __builtins__ back
> to the namespace. Restricting what arbitrary code can do has been
> discussed many, many times, and it seems there is no way to do it short
> of reimplementing a python interpretor.

Out of curiosity I tried the following in 2.3.4


#------Begin Code

import random

globalDict = {'__builtins__':random}
localDict  = {}
execfile("test2.py", globalDict, localDict)

print globalDict
print localDict

localDict['move']()

#------- End Code


Where test2.py looked like this:


#---------Begin Code

print __builtins__

try:
    del __builtins__
    print 'del worked'
except:
    pass

try:
    exec('del __builtins__')
    print('exec del worked')
except:
    pass

try:
    import sys
    print 'Import Worked'
except:
    pass

try:
    f = file('out.tmp','w')
    f.write('asdfasdf')
    f.close()
    print 'File Access Worked'
except:
    pass

seed()

def move():
    print __builtins__

#------ End Code

I sure it has a crack in in somewhere, but it doesn't
seem to be del __builtins__ .

-Robey







From DeepBleu at DeepBleu.org  Sat Aug 28 09:50:01 2004
From: DeepBleu at DeepBleu.org (DeepBleu)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 13:50:01 GMT
Subject: Iteration over Lists and Strings
References: <cUSXc.56768$xi6.42946@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<mailman.2558.1093685856.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <d40Yc.31106$Jn5.15328@fe1.texas.rr.com>

Thanks all.




From enjoylife_95135 at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 15 14:06:46 2004
From: enjoylife_95135 at hotmail.com (enjoylife_95135)
Date: 15 Aug 2004 11:06:46 -0700
Subject: compiling python 2.3.4 with command line editing
References: <864c2cd6.0408141845.3f50a3d5@posting.google.com>
	<411f37bf$0$13058$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
Message-ID: <864c2cd6.0408151006.135826b6@posting.google.com>

Got it. As it turned out, I needed the readline-dev package *and* the
termcap-dev package. But command-line history works now, and I am warm
and happy.

Thanks!
S


"Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote in message news:<411f37bf$0$13058$9b622d9e at news.freenet.de>...
> enjoylife_95135 wrote:
> >    I need to upgrade, so I downloaded and compiled Python 2.3.4. Very
> > cool, spiffy etc, but the interpreter doesn't allow for command line
> > editing, i.e. I can't type <ctrl-P> and go to the previous command.
> > 
> >     How do I enable that?
> 
> Make sure the readline module is built. For that, you need to install
> the readline header files, which are probably in the readline-dev
> package.
> 
> Regards,
> Martin


From python.noob at gmx.de  Fri Aug  6 06:26:32 2004
From: python.noob at gmx.de (Steffen)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 12:26:32 +0200
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <opsca3aibxb8zb2y@idefix.coneto.home>

Hi there,
my problem: i have a directory, where several python modules (classes) are  
stored.
The names of these modules arent known before runtime. Now i want to parse  
the Directory and create an instance of each class. I tried to handle this  
with new.instance() and new.clasobj() but this didnt really work for me.  
Any Ideas ?


From elbertlev at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 22 18:27:07 2004
From: elbertlev at hotmail.com (Elbert Lev)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 15:27:07 -0700
Subject: 2 GB files
Message-ID: <9418be08.0408221427.182a4d30@posting.google.com>

>From postings to this group and other resources I understood that the
only way to make Python programs to work correctly with files lager
then 2 GB is building Python interpreter with some "magic spell"
defines. For me this is ABSOLUTELY unacceptable (Not the building, but
distributing and installing on dozens of computers in my
organisation). Then every time we switch to a new release of Python
this has to be repeated over and over!

I believe, that automatic 64 bit support (large files) can and should
be included in standard library (on platforms which support this
feature).


From David.Vaughan at Gifford.UK.com  Fri Aug 13 12:09:18 2004
From: David.Vaughan at Gifford.UK.com (David Vaughan)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 17:09:18 +0100
Subject: decorator syntax polling suggestion
Message-ID: <C59AEFCA2D33284B8EE3C0A8C8C9004A108464@kiwi>



Steven Bethard wrote:

> What I'm really interested in here is trying to build a consensus
among the
> dissatisfied people.  If you scan the list right now, you can see that
there
> are a hundred people going in a hundred directions.

Sounds like what we need is a transferable multiple vote system - see
    http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Coombs%27_method
That way, the poll-winner was voted either for or against by each person
who
cared about it.

This would firstly present a fun Python project writing on the on-line
voting form and results-processor (any volunteers?), and would also keep
everyone amused while they work out how the voting works and then how to
rank all the proposals, giving my inbox a welcome respite :-)

David

P.S. FWIW, I'm a J2 person - very elegant.


David Vaughan
Structural Analyst
for Gifford
 
  _____  

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Southampton, SO40 7HT,  UNITED KINGDOM
 
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This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for
the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed and may
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responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, be
advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use,
dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail is
strictly prohibited.
 


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Fri Aug  6 17:07:56 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 16:07:56 -0500
Subject: Extending python.
References: <mailman.1305.1091817612.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061307140.8941-100000@e5-05.ee.ualberta.ca>
Message-ID: <UfidnTOxmMe3bo7cRVn-pw@comcast.com>

Is the C that you wish to call located in a .DLL?
If so, I can possibly help.

Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.

"Grzegorz Dostatni" <grzegorz at ee.ualberta.ca> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061307140.8941-100000 at e5-05.ee.ualberta.ca...
>
> Followup.
>
> Thanks, I'll re-read this again.
>
> Small change. I've managed to extend python with a small module (just
> using the .o file) under Linux. It appears that my problems are a bit more
> windows centric. Anyone willing and able to help me with that?
>
> Greg
>
> "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
>  But, in practice, there is."
> - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
>
>
> On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Batista, Facundo wrote:
>
> > Maybe this will help you:
> >
> > http://www.python.org/doc/faq/extending.html
> >
> > . Facundo
> >
> > #- -----Mensaje original-----
> > #- De: Grzegorz Dostatni [mailto:grzegorz at ee.ualberta.ca]
> > #- Enviado el: Viernes, 06 de Agosto de 2004 13:35
> > #- Para: python-list at python.org
> > #- Asunto: Extending python.
> > #-
> > #-
> > #-
> > #- Cheers.
> > #-
> > #- More questions.
> > #- Let's say I'm trying to extend python with a c module. That
> > #- module cannot
> > #- be dynamically loaded (for reasons outside my control). I
> > #- have to create a
> > #- custom python executable (or more likely custom python library).
> > #- How would I do that? Is there documentation on that
> > #- somewhere? Most of
> > #- what I've seen was for dynamic loading.
> > #-
> > #- 2nd Step:
> > #- Let's say I'm doing it under windows, using Visual Studio. Is there
> > #- anything I have to be aware of?
> > #-
> > #- 3rd Step:
> > #- Let's say I don't have the source available. I do have the
> > #- object files,
> > #- the resulting libraries and the header files though.
> > #-
> > #- Greg
> > #-
> > #- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
> > #- possible worlds,
> > #-  and the pessimist fears this is true."
> > #- - James Branch Cabell
> > #-
> > #-
> > #- --
> > #- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> > #-
> >
>




From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 00:03:55 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:03:55 +1000
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408230004350.22879-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408230004350.22879-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408222103628bc08d@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 00:23:32 +0100 (BST), Michael Sparks
<zathras at thwackety.com> wrote:
>      I discovered this after replacing "decorate" with "using" and
>      rerunning the test suite... Incidentally the syntax also allows
>      code like this:
> 
>      using:
>          staticmethod synchronised memoise deprecated
>      def: foo(bar):
>          "This function foos bars all day long"
>          pass

The pie-decorator syntax was modified shortly after a2 to require
one decorator per line. I think for readability's sake, this was a good
call, and would urge you to do this in any new syntax.


From jjl at pobox.com  Wed Aug 11 19:00:40 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 00:00:40 +0100
Subject: loading message thingy
References: <cfcndl$28em$1@otis.netspace.net.au>
	<WcWdnft_UfUPg4fcRVn-hQ@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <87657pqnzb.fsf@pobox.com>

"Larry Bates" <lbates at swamisoft.com> writes:
[...]
> Note: Your final code will have syntax highlighting
[...]

What?


John


From unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom  Sat Aug  7 16:52:56 2004
From: unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom (Michel Claveau - abstraction méta-galactique non triviale en fuite perpétuelle.)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 22:52:56 +0200
Subject: Compiling disutil modules on Windows
References: <mailman.1339.1091911498.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cf3ffu$rua$1@news-reader3.wanadoo.fr>

Hi !

Look the message "Building Python 2.4 extensions with the Microsoft Toolkit
Compiler" from 17 jul 2004

It's interesting...





From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Sun Aug  8 07:30:24 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 08 Aug 2004 13:30:24 +0200
Subject: PEP 263 status check
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com> <4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de>
	<10h5hgvpafm8a64@news.supernews.com> <41133C76.8040302@v.loewis.de>
	<10h6rklt3fa1690@news.supernews.com> <41137799.70808@v.loewis.de>
	<10h724r20kkeqb2@news.supernews.com>
	<HBF.20040806qchc@bombur.uio.no>
	<10h7u8m9qknh76e@news.supernews.com>
	<HBF.20040808avqr@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040808yxye@bombur.uio.no>

I wrote:
>John Roth wrote:
>> Rudeness objection to your characteization.
> 
> Sorry, I guess that was a bit over the top.  I've just gotten so fed
> up with bad charset handling, including over-standardization, over the
> years.  And as you point out, I misunderstood the scope of your
> suggestion.  But you have been saying that people should always use
> Unicode, and things like that.

Sorry again, I seem to have confused you with Peter.  I should have
gotten a clue when you said "if you want your source to be utf-8, you
need to accept the consequences".  Not exactly the words of a True
Believer in Unicode:-)

-- 
Hallvard


From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Wed Aug 11 03:29:26 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 09:29:26 +0200
Subject: Yet another decorator proposal
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1480.1092204219.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1480.1092204219.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2ntvn1F4mgskU1@uni-berlin.de>

Marco Aschwanden wrote:
> Here is yet another decorator proposal:
> 
> def sumSequencesLengths(var1, var2):
>      """Computes something very important.
> 
>      __decorators__:
>          staticmethod

I think this is not a great idea, for several reasons:

- Decorators are inside the function. I'm not generally against that,
but I agree that decorators are something important that, e.g., should
not be folded away.
- Decorators are "hidden" in a string. This is almost as ugly as the
meta-constructs some other languages have, hiding vital information in
comments.
- The indentation, if it is a crucial part of your proposal, is not
clear. Remember that docstrings are strings, and as such have no notion
of the current indentation of the function block.

Sorry, but if decorators should go into the body, I'm sure they will
take such a form:

def SomeFunction(param):
    meta:
        staticmethod
    <code>

Reinhold

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From bryanjugglercryptographer at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 11 20:36:59 2004
From: bryanjugglercryptographer at yahoo.com (Bryan Olson)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 17:36:59 -0700
Subject: rsa implementation question
References: <1092200894.4119a9beb1978@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>	<mailman.1483.1092208637.5135.python-list@python.org>	<5GkSc.124$O72.121@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>
	<mailman.1517.1092244848.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1a517b5.0408111636.200f675f@posting.google.com>

Heiko Wundram wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, 11. August 2004 10:21 schrieb Bryan Olson:
> > I agree with about half of Heiko Wundram's response.
> 
> Well, with what don't you agree? ;)

Well, since you asked:  

|> RSA (Rivest-Shamir-Adleman encryption) never works in 
|> "blocks", as there is no notion of blocks in public key 
|> cryptography, there's only the notion of doing an operation
|> on plaintext modulo a large prime n.

There is a notion of blocks in many public-key ciphers, 
including RSA.  The modulus n in RSA is composite, not prime. 
The "only the notion" statement implies that integer modular 
arithmetic is the only base for public-key cryptography, which 
is not true.

> Anyway, I've not read anywhere that for signing a message it is
> discredited to use RSA decrypt with private key, encrypt with
> public key.

Try the book you cited, section 11.2.3, Note 11.10, Example 
11.11, and Remark 11.12.

    http://www.cacr.math.uwaterloo.ca/hac/

Subsequent to the publishing of HAC, the 'redundancy function' 
they describe in Section 11.3.5 'ISO/IEC 9796 formatting', fell 
to a series of attacks, first by J. S. Coron, D. Naccache and J. 
Stern, then improved and extended by D. Coppersmith, S. Halevi 
and C. Jutla, and several following works.

The other redundancy function they describe is the one for which 
I presented Python code (for the SHA-1 usage).  Don't use it 
without the hash function.

There are now more trustworthy padding methods for RSA signing 
and encryption, based on the "Exact Security" and "OAEP" papers 
of Bellare and Rogaway, with arguably interesting follow-ups by
Victor Shoup.

> Basically, what I always implemented is something like (pseudocode):

Don't do that, even for encryption.  See Bleichenbacher's 
attacks on RSA encrpytion:

  http://www.bell-labs.com/user/bleichen/bib.html

[...]

> So much for what I always did. I really don't know whether this is some form 
> of secure way to go, but at least no cryptography book I read has ever 
> discouraged the use of random padding while encrypting data which is much 
> shorter than the "block size" of a public-key crypto algorithm (esp. for 
> RSA).

Then I'm guessing I won't see you at Crypto 04 next week ;)


-- 
--Bryan


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Wed Aug 11 03:17:15 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay Brar)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:17:15 +1000
Subject: rsa implementation question
In-Reply-To: <200408110852.57937.heikowu@ceosg.de>
References: <1092200894.4119a9beb1978@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
	<200408110852.57937.heikowu@ceosg.de>
Message-ID: <4119C7FB.1050808@mail.usyd.edu.au>

thanks
i am using RSa for signing documents and hence decrypting and then 
encrypting to verify?
 what i was rather trying to get at was what if the plaintext is too 
large? if the plaintext is greater than (log2 n)/8, would you just throw 
an error or would you break the plaintext in parts.
the reason i am asking this is because i am timing the sign operations 
using the pcrypto package. the time is constant relative to the size of 
the plaintext (as you would expect) but at a certain point there is an 
increase in the time taken to sign. this corresponds to a very large 
plaintext.
that is why i was wondering about the  block thing.



Heiko Wundram wrote:

>Am Mittwoch, 11. August 2004 07:08 schrieb Ajay:
>  
>
>>just like to know how the RSA implementation in the pcrypto package works.
>>Does it operate in blocks, if yes, what is the size of the blocks?
>>    
>>
>
>RSA (Rivest-Shamir-Adleman encryption) never works in "blocks", as there is no 
>notion of blocks in public key cryptography, there's only the notion of doing 
>an operation on plaintext modulo a large prime n.
>
>Now, you could call (log2 n)/8 the block size in bytes of RSA for a certain 
>encryption prime, but I'd never talk of block sizes with RSA, as normally you 
>don't use RSA (or public-key cryptography in general) to encrypt plaintext a 
>block at a time, but rather to encrypt a random string of bytes [len(s) <= 
>(log2 n)/8 for the modulo prime of the algorithm], which is used as the key 
>for a normal symmetric encryption algorithm, to which you feed the blocks.
>
>Thus, the receiver (and also the sender) only has to make one expensive 
>calculation (retrieving the key from the encrypted RSA packet), whereas 
>decrypting the cyphertext (or encrypting it) is done using a symmetric 
>cypher, which has the advantage of being much faster to compute than a 
>public-key cypher.
>
>Anyway, if you're interested in how symmetric and/or public-key cryptography 
>work, read up on:
>
>http://www.cacr.math.uwaterloo.ca/hac/
>
>especially chapters 7 and 8.
>
>Heiko.
>  
>


-- 
Ajay Brar
CS Honours 2004
Smart Internet Technology Research Group

http://www.it.usyd.edu.au/~abrar1



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Aug 24 01:49:49 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 01:49:49 -0400
Subject: Overriding logical operators?
References: <59e9fd3a04082022392b749256@mail.gmail.com><mailman.2097.1093073730.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2ovvrmFcu6r6U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <cgektt$ovb$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Greg Ewing" <greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote in message
news:2ovvrmFcu6r6U1 at uni-berlin.de...
> Terry Reedy wrote:
> > I think
> > we need a special term in Python also, such as 'pseudo-op' or 'syntax
> > operator' to flag 'and' and 'or' as importantly different from regular
> > operators.
>
> They're really control structures, like 'if' and 'while'.
> The fact that they happen to look a bit like operators is
> purely coincidental...

Ok, I'll think of them as 'control words' for now.

tjr





From john at grulic.org.ar  Thu Aug 19 09:54:32 2004
From: john at grulic.org.ar (John Lenton)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:54:32 -0300
Subject: speed
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408191528100.1138-100000@kleigh.nl>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408191528100.1138-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <20040819135432.GD3185@grulic.org.ar>

On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 03:37:26PM +0200, Peter Kleiweg wrote:
> 
> I implemented a lexer in Pylly and compared it to the version I
> had written in Flex. Processing 219062 lines took 0.9 seconds in
> C (from Flex), and 5 minutes 54 second in Python (from Pylly), a
> ratio of 393 to 1.
> 
> Is this normal for Python, or does Flex produce better parsers
> than Pylly? I have been looking at the code produced by Flex to
> see if I could translate it to Python automaticly. But it has a
> lot of goto statements, and I haven't figured out how to
> translate those to Python efficiently.

flex has an option to generate code without the gotos...

-- 
John Lenton (john at grulic.org.ar) -- Random fortune:
Don't read everything you believe.
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From michele.simionato at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 06:45:15 2004
From: michele.simionato at gmail.com (Michele Simionato)
Date: 5 Aug 2004 03:45:15 -0700
Subject: Confused about pep 318
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4edc17eb.0408050245.49c046e2@posting.google.com>

Skip Montanaro <skip at pobox.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> There was a lot of discussion on python-dev, but none very recently (last
> month or so).  Guido indicated there that he brought up the topic at
> EuroPython in his keynote talk and entertained discussion from the floor.
> Based upon that discussion he decided to go with the @-decorator syntax.
> Since EuroPython most/all the discussion went on in private email or on
> irc.  I think it would be nice if this conversation was summarized in the
> PEP, but that will have to come from one of the participants.
> 
> Skip

I think the way the decision came up was absolutely unfair to the PEP
proponents and to the Python community at large. This disturb me more
than the syntax itself (which I don't like, but this not the point).
I agree that Guido is the Dictator For Life, but he is supposed to
be Benevolent!

I-will-never-submit-a-PEP-ly,

          Michele Simionato


From peter at semantico.com  Wed Aug 18 10:52:33 2004
From: peter at semantico.com (Peter Hickman)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:52:33 +0100
Subject: How big can a Python program be?
In-Reply-To: <903b3fba.0408180619.4d41027e@posting.google.com>
References: <903b3fba.0408170333.49ce3944@posting.google.com>
	<412204d5$1$28243$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk>
	<903b3fba.0408180619.4d41027e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <41236d32$0$8717$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk>

vronskij at post.sk wrote:
> Peter Hickman <peter at semantico.com> wrote in message news:<412204d5$1$28243$afc38c87 at news.easynet.co.uk>...
>>Are you suggesting that a solo programmer wrote a multi million line C++ 
>>program? If not then what has this to do with 'How many lines can one handle?'
> 
> No way. This was just another question. One  programmer told me that
> he
> can roughly handle max 10 000 lines  in C language. I was curious
> about Python. I always hear that Python can be used on larger projects
> than e.j. PERL because it is Object Oriented and cleanly designed.
> What is a larger project? Mumbers revail more.

The problem is that some languages are much more verbose than others, thus a 100 
line python program might require 2,000 lines of C or 700 lines of C++ (I'm just 
making up numbers here). What then counts is the programmers ability to read the 
source and summarise (oh, that's just creating back orders if we are out of 
stock). The more verbose the language the more likely they will have a problem 
comprehending the intent of the code. Imagine trying to comprehend a C program 
against its assembly equivalent. C is easier to read than assembly and Python is 
easier to read than C.

I suppose languages have a conciseness metric but I would not know how to 
measure it. On the other hand APL is very short by just as hard to read.

Perl is used on some very large projects! The 75,000 lines I mentioned was Perl 
and I would not count that as a large project.

>>The application I am currently working on has 75,000 lines across some 600 
>>files. 
> 
> This is probably team work. It's helpful for me to know figures. When
> you start a project it is useful to know the limitations of a
> language. Visual Basic is reported to fail on larger projects.

It was created by a team for sure but when an upgrade or fix is required then 
only one programmer is looking at the whole of the code so they have to handle 
the entire codebase. A well designed codebase / object hierarchy helps here.

As to Basic, the non VB sort, I have worked on financial systems that were 
written in Vax Basic that were many 1,000s of lines long. The language is not 
the problem. With VB the problem is that you never really got to work with the 
code, the IDE was always in the way and the IDE only existed at the program 
level and not the project.


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 31 16:28:20 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 16:28:20 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <loom.20040831T212300-455@post.gmane.org>
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>	<e69d3ed2040	<HBF.20040830aznn@
	<loom.20040831T212300-455@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <ch2n13$bh2$1@sea.gmane.org>

Steven Bethard wrote:
> Paul Morrow <pm_mon <at> yahoo.com> writes:
> 
>>The assignments to __xxx__ variables (immediately following the 
>>docstring, if present) would occur in the namespace of the object 
>>(function/method) being defined.  The assignments would not cause them 
>>to change namespaces.
> 
> 
> 
> What you're suggesting is that given:
> 
> def f1():
>     __author__ = 'Steve'
> 
> and
> 
> def f2():
>     author = 'Steve'
> 
> in f1, the assignment to __author__ occurs in the function's namespace, but in 
> f2, the assignment to author occurs in the local namespace.  Clearly then, the 
> __xxx__ format (if at the beginning of a function) changes the namespace to 
> which an assignment applies.  How is this not causing assignments to change 
> namespaces?
> 

   def f3():
      """I am a docstring."""
      __author__ = 'Steve'
      y = 10

When the interpreter processes a function def, it places the name of the 
function and its docstring into the namespace of the function being 
defined.  So instead of stopping at the docstring, it would look ahead 
to see if there were any subsequent " __xxx__ = " statements, and if so, 
would evaluate them in the same namespace [*].  After the def was 
finished, the function's namespace would include not only its name and 
docstring, but an attribute for each __xxx__ assignment as well.

Later, when the function is executed, its local, global, and built-in 
namespaces would be exactly what they are now, except that its local 
namespace would not include any __xxx__ assignments processed when the 
def statement was executed.

So in f3 above, its local namespace would include 'y' only.

Paul

[*] The namespace of the function being defined; the same place it put 
the function's name and docstring.



From cjw at sympatico.ca  Sat Aug  7 09:32:55 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 09:32:55 -0400
Subject: Plotting histograms, scatter plots in Python
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.06.21.13.49.266713@hotmail.com>
References: <d1f3d1d3.0408061018.137b600f@posting.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.06.21.13.49.266713@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <7S4Rc.49729$Vm1.1245341@news20.bellglobal.com>



Paramjit Oberoi wrote:
>>What is the easiest way to generate some plots and graphs in Python ?
> 
> 
> Pychart:
> http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Yasushi_Saito/pychart/

The charts look good, but the source code links fail.

Colin W.



From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Aug 13 22:53:40 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (simo)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 19:53:40 -0700
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1637.1092428855.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <30260531.0408131853.18ec2446@posting.google.com>

I'm a Perl programmer at heart - well that and PHP, plus the odd
dabbling in C/C++/C# etc.

Anyway, the thought of indentation instead of curly braces really put
me off to start with, but I tried it, and as soon as I started to
write larger programs, it became apparent what a good system it was,
plus it forces readable code on you (you wouldn't believe how many PHP
programmers I know who don't indent properly).

I find when using C# that you really need a big monitor/resolution and
an IDE to provide code-folding/split window/brace-matching etc;
otherwise you can't find your way around the source, not so with
Python - you just need a text editor that can do proper tabbing.

Now I write all my desktop apps in Python - I haven't really converted
from Perl/PHP for web stuff yet, as the Python DBI is confusing (or
confused?!) too many libraries, no standard.....


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 21 14:31:15 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:31:15 -0400
Subject: __metaclass__ and __author__ are already decorators
In-Reply-To: <4127813F.9020707@yahoo.it>
References: <cg7mo9$r8r$1@sea.gmane.org> <4127813F.9020707@yahoo.it>
Message-ID: <cg84dk$r8r$6@sea.gmane.org>

Paolo Veronelli wrote:

> 
> 
> Paul Morrow wrote:
> 
>> Thinking about decorators, and looking at what we are already doing in 
>> our Python code, it seems that __metaclass__, __author__, __version__, 
>> etc. are all examples of decorators.  So we already have a decorator 
>> syntax.  What is the compelling reason to invent a new one?  And if we 
>> do, what's to become of the old one?
> 
> 
> You are right ,if some __xxx__ (only __metaclass__ for now?) class 
> attributes have deep meanings (not only a syntactical 
> one(__lt__,__getitem__,....)) ,and many people suggest not to use them 
> (probably there is something about a non pythonicity  of __metaclass__ 
> in this behaviour) then it would be very nice to match this deepness 
> against the decorator one ,at least using @
> before class definitions if it's the case....
> 
> 
>     Thanks for pointing out another unpythonicity. Paolino
> 

Is that what I did?  Isn't assigning values to __xxx__ attributes 
pythonic?  I see it all over the place.  pydoc uses it.  It's how we 
declare metaclasses.  It's how we enable special operators and special 
behavior.  It's how we specify meta information (author, version, 
credits, etc.).  The @ on the other hand...






From JSmuts at clover.co.za  Wed Aug 25 09:15:58 2004
From: JSmuts at clover.co.za (Jaco Smuts)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:15:58 +0200
Subject: Just a quick one
In-Reply-To: <cgi2qq$rvp$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <OFCBC9F85F.B5EB4D23-ON42256EFB.0048B5E5-42256EFB.0048DFBC@clover.co.za>

Hello M

>From the python tutorial:
"Another useful data type built into Python is the dictionary. 
Dictionaries are sometimes found in other languages as ``associative 
memories'' or ``associative arrays''. Unlike sequences, which are indexed 
by a range of numbers, dictionaries are indexed by keys, which can be any 
immutable type; strings and numbers can always be keys. Tuples can be used 
as keys if they contain only strings, numbers, or tuples; if a tuple 
contains any mutable object either directly or indirectly, it cannot be 
used as a key. You can't use lists as keys, since lists can be modified in 
place using their append() and extend() methods, as well as slice and 
indexed assignments. "



I understand this to mean that your  code will not work becuase you are 
using a list (mutable) as a key

sounds as though it will work if you change 

['Bob','One']

to

('Bob', 'One')

I have not tested it, but I  suspect that will work

jaco








"M. Clift" <noone at here.com>
Sent by: python-list-bounces+jsmuts=clover.co.za at python.org
08/25/2004 03:06 PM
 
        To:     python-list at python.org
        cc: 
        Subject:        Just a quick one


Hi,

Just a quick one. I'm trying to call [Bob','One'] with this, but I keep
getting 'unhashable'. I've tried various ' " and [ and can't get the thing
to work. Any offers?

Thanks,

M

<code>

from random import *

Name_Number = xrange(int(raw_input("Choose number of Names (1-20)? ")))

state = [None,None]

nextName = {['Bob','One']:['Rita','Sue'],\
              'Rita':['Mary','Sue',['Bob','One']],\
              'Sue':['Rita','Mary',['Bob','One']],\
              'Mary':['Sue','Rita']}

Name_List = []

tmp = choice((['Bob','One'],'Rita','Sue','Mary'))

for x in Name_Number:
    print state
    while tmp in state[0:2]:
        tmp = choice(nextName[Name_List[-1]])
    print tmp, ", ",
    print
    print "Name ",x+1," is ", tmp
    Name_List.append(tmp)
    state[x%2] = tmp

    print Name_List

<code>


-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

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From stefan at eischet.com  Fri Aug  6 13:51:55 2004
From: stefan at eischet.com (Stefan Eischet)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 19:51:55 +0200
Subject: Killing children
In-Reply-To: <87smb0w4ln.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
References: <87smb0w4ln.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
Message-ID: <4E0D6359-E7D1-11D8-BDA6-000A95857E5C@eischet.com>

Hi Laura,

what a terrible subject line! ;-)

I sometimes use os.system with pskill from 
http://www.sysinternals.com/ntw2k/freeware/pskill.shtml - this should 
do what you want.

I do get my pid from some spawn-variant, IIRC. This should be more 
reliable than killing by name or parsing ps output (since you might 
kill the wrong process if there are multiple processes with the same 
name).

What exactly doesn't work with your spawning? Could you post the spawn 
call you're using?

Cheers,
   Stefan

On 06.08.2004, at 19:36, Laura Conrad wrote:

>
> I'm writing an application that has to spawn some processes and then
> kill them later.  It doesn't need to talk or listen to them while
> they're running, but there are stop and start buttons and the stop
> button should stop everything that gets started by the start button.
>
> There are lots of ways to do this on Linux, but this project has to
> run under cygwin.  So far, the only thing I've gotten to work at all
> under cygwin is doing an 'os.system' to start the process and then
> parsing the "ps" output and using os.kill on the processes that ps
> finds.  This is unsatisfactory in a number of ways.
>
> I have been unable to get os.spawnl to start the processes correctly.
> I was using pexpect, which worked fine with test programs, but not
> with the actual processes that need to be spawned.  I did a little bit
> of playing with the "process" module but didn't get it working right.
>
> Does anyone have a better idea?
> -- 
> Laura (mailto:lconrad at laymusic.org , http://www.laymusic.org/ )
> (617) 661-8097	fax: (501) 641-5011
> 233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139
>
>
> -- 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
>
// stefan at eischet.com //



From max at alcyone.com  Sun Aug  8 02:52:24 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 23:52:24 -0700
Subject: elements of decorator syntax suggestions
References: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>		<mailman.1298.1091815362.5135.python-list@python.org>		<4edc17eb.0408062125.231f7bef@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1324.1091857951.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<41155C33.37EEB397@alcyone.com>
	<4edc17eb.0408072041.7bfe9eff@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <4115CDA8.1A8AD51D@alcyone.com>

Michele Simionato wrote:

> 1. @ is already used in Leo and ipython, "|" is not.

It's also used in EmPy, but you don't see me complaining.

> 2. "|" stands visually more than other characters.

@ sure takes up more visual space and is easier to spot in text than |,
which is precisely why I used it in EmPy as the token prefix (also
because @ at the time is neither commonly used in English text or legal
in Python, though the latter will be changing).

> 3. Many people have an irrational repulsion for "@" and "$".

Evidently!

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ I have not yet begun to right!
    -- John Paul Jones


From timr at probo.com  Sun Aug  8 01:16:32 2004
From: timr at probo.com (Tim Roberts)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 22:16:32 -0700
Subject: upper memory limit
References: <mailman.1328.1091861642.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <3hdbh0d3af4gjbj6psec10nahls0u3nuu3@4ax.com>

Leandro <leandro_ricardo at yahoo.com> wrote:

>There is an upper memory limit in Python?
>I have 2GB RAM and 2 processors Xeon 2.4 - (Windows XP), but I just can use
>1.2G of memory, after this python crashes.
>Does someone know if python has some memory limit?

You might be surprised to learn that the amount of memory available to a
single process is (almost) completely unrelated to the amount of physical
memory in the machine.  Windows is a virtual memory system.

A single process in Windows is limited to 2GB of address space.  Part of
that is occupied by the Python executable, your DLLs, and the system DLLs.

1.2GB seems a litle low, but it is not entirely unreasonable.
-- 
- Tim Roberts, timr at probo.com
  Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.


From nzanella at cs.mun.ca  Wed Aug 18 17:42:03 2004
From: nzanella at cs.mun.ca (Neil Zanella)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 14:42:03 -0700
Subject: static class methods and data members
Message-ID: <b68d2f19.0408181244.5e02785f@posting.google.com>

Hello,

I would like to know whether it is possible to define static class methods
and data members in Python (similar to the way it can be done in C++ or Java).
These do not seem to be mentioned in "Learning Python" by Mark Lutz and David
Ascher. It seems like they are a relatively new feature... It seems to me that
any truly OO programming language should support these so I'm sure that Python
is no exception, but how can these be defined/implemented in Python? Currently
I have Python version 2.3 installed on my system.

Thanks,

Neil


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 02:35:43 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 08:35:43 +0200
Subject: Proposal for removing self
References: <T_7Xc.61360$Fg5.2281@attbi_s53>
	<b74e43f1.0408252333.48074974@posting.google.com>
	<1gj4sup.hrowbz1bzo06mN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<b74e43f1.0408261315.24b00c88@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1gj64fr.1xs0h091e7wr9oN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Ravi Teja Bhupatiraju <webraviteja at yahoo.com> wrote:
   ...
> Aren't you being a bit touchy Alex? Now I am glad that I did not
> mention my wish list on properties and DBC :-). However, your post has
> been quite informative. So I can live with that.

Exactly: far from being "touchy", I have been constructive.  Coming back
to c.l.py after months of absence, and finding that, as usual, instead
of trying to use Python to best effect, people with mediocre Python
mastery keep trying to change Python (generally trying to break some of
the best aspects of it, because they don't understand enough Python to
see why they're good) was of course depressing -- I'm proud of myself
for reacting constructively rather than lashing out or going away again
at once.


> I wish I could rise up to your challenge and do all that stuff.
> Regretfully, my Python skills don't extend to metaclasses and
> especially "byte code hacking". Maybe you will explain those in your
> next edition of the cookbook :-).

Bytecodehacks are implementation-specific, and specific to one version
of Python (they wouldn't apply to Jython, IronPython, ...), so I'm not
going to write about them -- and you don't need to master them to try
out one of the changes you want, the __private__ idea.  Metaclasses are
quite another issue: they are, even conceptually, absolutely fundamental
to understanding Python's object model, and if you do not understand the
object model, your knowledge of Python is shallow -- FAR too shallow for
you to _sensibly_ propose changes to Python, in my opinion.

So I did cover metaclasses in "Python in a Nutshell" as well as in
dedicated presentations (you can find the presentations' PDFs on the
usual site, www.strakt.com) and I will probably select a few metaclass
recipes for the second edition of the Cookbook.


> That said, I only could find one set of docs that could be called a
> <tutorial> on metaclasses. Those were by David Mertz and Michele
> Simionato. I could not get through them. I took comfort in the
> statement "Metaclasses are deeper magic than 99% of users should ever
> worry about" from the document. I am still looking for something I can
> understand.

At least 99% of users should not propose changes to Python.  Many of
them would be well served by undersanding metaclasses, even if they
never need to write custom metaclasses -- they shouldn't _worry_ about
them, since there's nothing to worry about, but understanding and
worrying are different things.  Which is why I cover metaclasses in
books, articles, posts (use google groups to look for my post that
mention metaclass, there were quite a few), and presentations.


Alex


From jjl at pobox.com  Fri Aug 27 15:05:08 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 20:05:08 +0100
Subject: cookie
References: <mailman.2410.1093515779.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<oekxem1a.fsf@pobox.com>
	<mailman.2485.1093569409.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87fz68v1uj.fsf@pobox.com>

Ajay <abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au> writes:
> Quoting "John J. Lee" <jjl at pobox.com>:
> > Ajay <abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au> writes:
[...]
> > > i am printing a simple cookie, but instead of printing
> > > um=name:blah&access:admin&exp:2312390.909
> > >
> > > its printing
> > > um="name:blah&access:admin&exp:2312390.909"
> > >
> > > why the quotes?
> >
> > Why not?
> >
> > I don't see how they'd cause any harm.
> >
> they dont cause any harm, except for a an extra statement removing those
> quotes when i read the cookie, parse it and authenticate the session.
> the question is - is that normal cookie behaviour?
> cookie["test"]="blah"
> print cookie
> 
> prints test=blah and not test="blah"
> so why the quotes when i do the same thing, but use a variable instead of a
> string literal?

You've lost me, but on the basis of a very quick test, the Cookie
module preserves quotes across the parse->output cycle:

>>> import Cookie
>>> c = Cookie.SimpleCookie()
>>> c.load('foo=bar')
>>> print c
Set-Cookie: foo=bar;
>>> c.load('foo="bar"')
>>> print c
Set-Cookie: foo="bar";
>>>

That seems sensible behaviour to me, since quotes around cookie values
are significant for Netscape cookies (ie. regular, vanilla, internet
cookies).

I can categorically state that using a variable name instead of a
string literal will make no difference whatsoever.  I think you're
actually confused about Python syntax rather than the workings of the
Cookie module.  Try reading the Python language tutorial at
www.python.org.


John


From Jeffrey at Fro.man  Fri Aug 20 20:29:35 2004
From: Jeffrey at Fro.man (Jeffrey Froman)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:29:35 -0700
Subject: decorator J4 - any objections?
References: <cab22418.0408201006.16f163b2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <e8-dnS55wpftCrvcRVn-sQ@cablespeedwa.com>

Jim Jewett wrote:


>    def func(arg1, arg2)
>        @version("Added in 2.4")
>        @returns(None)
>    as:
>        """Docstring could be here, or in decorator part above"""
>        # body goes here

I like this better than the current proposal because it reads from top to
bottom, and flows like a typical conditional.

Before function writing the decorators whereas like reads this.

Jeffrey


From vincent at visualtrans.de  Wed Aug 25 15:04:48 2004
From: vincent at visualtrans.de (vincent wehren)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 21:04:48 +0200
Subject: Begginer question about py install
In-Reply-To: <cgi7m5$f56$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
References: <cgi7bl$6m2$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<cgi7m5$f56$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <cginse$nog$1@news1.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>

Player wrote:

> Also PyWin32 the latest version or build, will not install with the latest
> version of python, it requires 2.2 version of python, while the latest v of
> python is 2.3. :(
> 
> M.B
> 
> 
You probably just grabbed the wrong version. Note that build numbers are 
now the same for all, but for Python 2.3.x you need:

http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/pywin32/pywin32-202.win32-py2.3.exe?download


HTH,

--
Vincent Wehren


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug  6 08:33:25 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 08:33:25 -0400
Subject: Trimming a string
In-Reply-To: <cevgjt$ok1$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
References: <10gsmuieo65du5d@news.supernews.com>
	<ektPc.165630$OB3.11201@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
	<10gsotqjc2qrl54@news.supernews.com>
	<cevgjt$ok1$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
Message-ID: <UNednTrFbM8I547cRVn-rw@powergate.ca>

David Fraser wrote:

> Double Dumbass on You wrote:
>> "wes weston" wrote:
 >>> >>> x = "0100755"
 >>> >>> print x[4:]
 >>> 755
>>>    Reading the tutorial is really time well spent.
 >>
 >> Do you feel better about yourself for having posted a smug,
 >> shithead-type answer, troll??
> 
> Actually your answer was a bit ruder than his

And in fact, Wes' response was not in the least bit rude, but
rather quite helpful in two important ways: giving the actual
answer, and giving advice on how to find answers to similar
questions in the future.

Braindamagedness notwithstanding, Double Dumbass (appropriately
named?) needs to learn to cope with his situation in life and
reading the tutorial repeatedly, even, if necessary each time
before posting a question, would be a better approach than
insulting those who try to help.

-Peter


From n/a  Wed Aug 25 15:11:56 2004
From: n/a (ADE)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:11:56 -0700
Subject: Am I on the right path
References: <cginhf$5ff@odak26.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <10ipp5jbau4hb06@corp.supernews.com>

Nope just a project I wouldn't know how to create a virus worm or spambot

I am just learning how to program in python

But thanks for your concern as I can see the potential of something like
this


"Cyrille Lavigne" <dontreply at caramail.com> wrote in message
news:cginhf$5ff at odak26.prod.google.com...
> Are you trying to make a virus, worm or other spambot?
> ___
> Cyrille Lavigne
>




From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Aug 26 14:45:12 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (Simon John)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 11:45:12 -0700
Subject: Mysql in Python?
Message-ID: <cglb3o$fsk@odak26.prod.google.com>

Probably the only thing keeping me with database coding in PHP instead
of Python is that it's so unclear what should be used for what!

It's a similar thing for templating systems - there's too much choice,
and nothing has really become "the standard". I never thought I'd
complain about too much choice!

Also, PostgreSQL seems to be better supported than MySQL, although good
luck finding a web host with PostgreSQL *and* mod_python!

I guess anything that uses the DB-API 2 should be used, but MySQLdb
says it's out-of-date!

There's a list of modules at
http://python.org/topics/database/modules.html



From jhefferon at smcvt.edu  Mon Aug  2 10:53:40 2004
From: jhefferon at smcvt.edu (Jim Hefferon)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 07:53:40 -0700
Subject: Module for converting XML to Python object(s)?
References: <otdPc.224$df.27@bignews5.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <545cb8c2.0408020653.283b643@posting.google.com>

"Robert Oschler" <no_replies at fake_email_address.invalid> wrote in message news:<otdPc.224$df.27 at bignews5.bellsouth.net>...
> Has anybody seen a Python module that will take an XML document (not a
> colossal one), and convert it to a Python nested class object?
Perhaps
  http://www.rexx.com/~dkuhlman/gnosis_generateds.html
would help?

Jim


From cdunscombe at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 31 03:57:32 2004
From: cdunscombe at yahoo.com (Chris)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 00:57:32 -0700
Subject: Distributing Python applications - McMillan Installer question
References: <cglagp$h94@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <6f89f4fe.0408302357.26a4c584@posting.google.com>

Thanks Simon and Eric for your answers looks like I'll be supplying
byte code for *nix but I'll use one of the "freezers" for Windows as
Windows users tend to like installation etc. to be as simple as
possible.

Chris


"Simon John" <simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:<cglagp$h94 at odah37.prod.google.com>...
> I've built Installer programs on SUSE 9.1 and RedHat9, and they kinda
> work across the two platforms - the RH9 one also works on Fedora C1
> (but not RH7.3), and the SUSE one works on Linspire 4.5.....
> 
> I'd say cx_Freeze is not much difference either, except it seems
> cleaner than the import hook used in MMI.
> 
> But as far as building on Linux and running on HPUX, no chance, you
> might consider Jython/IronPython for that level of portability (or just
> supplying source).
> 
> Your other option is using a packing system like Apt, RPM, SunPKG etc.
> and bundling Python and all dependencies with your program source (or
> hoping that the user already has Python installed).
> 
> The whole *nix distribution issue is very complicated. Even the C++
> guys using Qt at work here have huge issues getting code to work across
> HPUX/AIX/Linux/Solaris.


From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Aug 31 23:32:18 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (Simon John)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 20:32:18 -0700
Subject: XML documentation stinks - help?
Message-ID: <ch3fs2$4dc@odbk17.prod.google.com>

I'm sure this must be a PEP, but could someone look at the PyXML
documentation?

I'm trying to evaluate XML on Python (to eventually use it with
XML-RPC) as apposed to Perl.

The problem is, I can't find a simple demo or documentation that just
says how to create a parser object, and call the start/char/end event
handlers.

With Perl's XML::Parser, it's that simple, you overload a
start/char/end handler that gets called for every element, then you
just create a hash of the data or whatever you want.

Most of the sites I Googled don't even exist anymore or have either
incomplete documentation, out-of-date documentation, or have way
over-complex examples that don't even explain why their importing
modules or what they're doing.

Maybe I'm missing something, but even comp.lang.python.* seems to have
no topics on XML in the past 3 years or so - has XML been deprecated
and I've not heard about it yet?! ;o)

I never thought I'd see something that is easy to do in Perl, but
seemingly impossible to do in Python, I guess Perl is optimised for
text parsing....



From atterdan at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 14:50:00 2004
From: atterdan at yahoo.com (John Doe)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:50:00 GMT
Subject: how to change a factory use of rfc822.Message to mhlib.Message
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.27.18.47.53.772876@yahoo.com>

I've never used a factory and would like to get some help.
The class
mailbox.UnixMailbox has a defination for a factory.

__init__(self, fp, factory=<class rfc822.Message>)

where fp is a file pointer. 

I don't want to use rfc822.Message. I'd like to use mhlib.Message instead.

rfc822.Message requires:
__init__(self, fp, seekable=1)

mhlib.Message requires:
__init__(self, f, n, fp=None)

where f think the is a folder name. I've seen '.'  used.
(The documentation is very unclear here). And 'n' is the seekable.

How do I call mailbox.UnixMailbox( fp ... ) with mhlib.Message?

Thanks


From scobloke2 at infotop.co.uk  Tue Aug 31 15:30:38 2004
From: scobloke2 at infotop.co.uk (Ian Wilson)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:30:38 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
In-Reply-To: <cgtv0s$sun$1@nntp.webmaster.com>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4dyXc.25792$Ot3.22106@twister.nyc.rr.com>
	<878yc0ucyl.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<cgnr8l$egb$1@nntp.webmaster.com>
	<20040827135423.154$1T@newsreader.com>
	<cgp2u4$5nk$1@nntp.webmaster.com>
	<cgq7ki$eg1$1@hercules.btinternet.com>
	<cgtv0s$sun$1@nntp.webmaster.com>
Message-ID: <ch2jku$e9e$1@hercules.btinternet.com>

David Schwartz wrote:

> 'unixism' has nothing to do with *using* UNIX.
...
>  only those people who use UNIXes are affected by 'unixism'

Sorry, I don't see how an activity can be affected by something that has 
nothing to do with that activity.

Are you suggesting that Unix users don't have to deal with unixism? If 
that were so, why would Xah Lee have such a bee in his bonnet about it? [2]

Xah Lee says "unix should mean unixism, the way things are done in unix 
platform" [1]

Xah Lee also says "the unix shells ... is one giant unpurgeable shit 
pile arose from ad hoc hacks of unixism." [2]

It seems legit to wonder why he chooses to place his web-pages amongst 
shit piles.



[1]

The world unix should mean unixism, that is, the way things are done in 
unix platform, their culture, their hacking attitude, their social 
attitude, their preferences, their people, their tools, their languages, 
their ps grep config make shebang tartall gunzip README manifesto et cetera.

http://www.xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/freebooks.html


[2]

By the way, the unix shells and environment variable and ways, is quite 
a fucked up one. It is amazing to see its stupidities alluded as an 
advance for some language design argument. The whole morbidity of the 
prospect to place an executable script as any program name in any path 
with the fucked up ways to search for programs to execute and the fucked 
up way to determine whether it is a program by the fucked up permission 
bits system is one giant unpurgeable shit pile arose from ad hoc hacks 
of unixism.

http://www.xahlee.org/Writ_dir/comp_lang_lisp/124.txt


All hail!


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 02:45:43 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 08:45:43 +0200
Subject: Static properties
References: <mailman.2426.1093530829.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj5e8n.xujsah4chw0gN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgmia0$qfc$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
Message-ID: <1gj657x.8jtu0f1hovhhvN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Bengt Richter <bokr at oz.net> wrote:
   ...
> >> Is it possible to define "static properties" in a class?
> >
> >Yes, but only by defining a custom metaclass to be the type of that
> >class.  Properties are defined in the type, not in the instance; so, for
> >a class itself to have properties, the class's type, commonly known as
> >its metaclass, must be the one defining them.
> 
> Um, UIAM a property is just a peculiar descriptor, which you can define
> without resorting to metaclass magic. See below ...

Hmmm -- I think we're talking somewhat at cross-purposes between
property, the built-in type, and the effect it has (that accessing an
attribute runs some code).  I was focusing on the formed, but you're
quite right regarding the latter.

> >if you want to be able to get at property curdir on INSTANCES of Path as
> >you normally would for a staticmethod, yet with property syntax, I think
> >you need to get a bit more clever than this... descriptors don't get
> >looked up two metalevels up, only one...
> >
> But you only need one:

If you don't use property, but "get a bit more clever" by defining a
custom descriptor as you have, yes:

> 
>  >>> class Path(object):
>  ...     class curdir(object):
>  ...         def __get__(self, inst, cls): return os.getcwd()
>  ...     curdir = curdir()

Nice.  Unfortunately it doesn't extend to data properties, those with a
__set__ method:

>>> class Path(object):
...   class foo(object):
...     def __get__(*a): return 'gotten'
...     def __set__(*a): print 'setten'
...   foo = foo()
... 
>>> p=Path()
>>> p.foo
'gotten'
>>> p.foo=23
setten
>>> p.foo
'gotten'
>>> Path.foo
'gotten'
>>> Path.foo = 23
>>> Path.foo
23
>>> 

I think (I hope I'm wrong) that to catch 'Path.foo = something' you do
have to use a custom metaclass (not 'metaclass magic', nothing in the
least magical about it).  But if you're simply willing to trust users to
just never assign to Path.foo -- you don't need for such assignments to
cause an error nor for them to cause any specific action -- a simple
custom descriptor may indeed suffice.


Alex


From davidf at sjsoft.com  Fri Aug  6 08:43:04 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 14:43:04 +0200
Subject: @decorators
In-Reply-To: <d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa@posting.google.com>
References: <d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cevucu$kor$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

daishi wrote:
> For what it's worth:
> 
> As far as I know, the proposed @decorator syntax will be the first
> time that two logical lines of python with the same indentation will
> not be independent of one another. Previously, when looking at:
> 
> 	some_python(code)
> 	and_some_more = stuff
> 
> there was no need to look at the the first line in order to know what
> the second line meant/did (and vice versa). It would seem that the
> cases when there are effects across multiple logical lines is captured
> in compound statements:
> 
> """
> Compound statements contain (groups of) other statements; they affect
> or control the execution of those other statements in some way.
> """ -Python Reference Manual
> 
> My understanding of decorators is that they fit this definition.
> One thing that I am not entirely clear about is whether decorators
> are intended to be a compound statement themselves, or whether they
> are meant to simply be extensions of current compound statements
> such as function definition (and class definitions?)
> 
> In either case, however, it seems that the following should apply:
> 
> """
> Each clause header begins with a uniquely identifying keyword and ends
> with a colon. A suite ... can be one or more indented statements on
> subsequent lines.
> """ -Python Reference Manual
> 
> In the first case where decorators form their own compound statement,
> this would seem to imply the basic layout of:
> 
> @decorator:
>     def foo():
>         pass
> 
> (Whether that uniquely identifying keyword for decorators happens to
> be spelled '@' is not important to me.)
> 
> In the second case where decorators are simply extensions of current
> compound statements, the current wording of the Python Reference
> Manual would seem to imply that for function definition the clause
> header must begin with 'def'. I.e., the decorator should not come
> before the def, and certainly not on a separate line. Beyond this,
> however, for me it is not particularly important whether the
> decorator comes before/after the function name/argument list, and
> how it is delimited.
> 
> I guess the basic point that I am trying to make is that what I find
> important is consistency with the basic visual layout of code promised
> (IMHO) by python. I believe that this promise is violated by the
> currently proposed decorator scheme.
> 
> d
> 
> PS: Although I believe the current view of the implementors is to view
> decorators as an extension to function definition, I believe that the
> separate compound statement view is fairly rich. As others have noted,
> it can make identical decorations simpler:
> 
> @static,synchronized:
>     def foo():
>         pass
>     def bar():
>         pass
I like this idea. What about using the list syntax instead of the @ syntax:

[decorator]:
     def foo():
         pass

[static, synchronized]:
     def foo():
         pass
     def bar():
         pass

[static,
  synchronized,
  types(int, int),
  returns(None)
]:
     def foo():
         pass

This would then take away the argument against a valid list before a def 
being valid python but not previously having any effect...

Or for good measure you could add a keyword:

declare [static, synchronized, types(int, int), returns(None)]:
     def foo():
         pass
     def bar():
         pass

Now that looks pretty neat

David


From martin at v.loewis.de  Mon Aug  2 10:10:17 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 16:10:17 +0200
Subject: Codecs for ISO 8859-11 (Thai) and 8859-16 (Romanian)
In-Reply-To: <efabc1be.0408020219.11dcf0d7@posting.google.com>
References: <efabc1be.0407270310.40dbd80@posting.google.com>
	<biteg0dko3sbp7el7etlhtm7djonnf7etq@4ax.com>
	<efabc1be.0407311057.68cdbc29@posting.google.com>
	<410c2827$0$24830$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<efabc1be.0408010830.2128cf68@posting.google.com>
	<410D7AB5.9040100@v.loewis.de>
	<efabc1be.0408020219.11dcf0d7@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <410E4B49.7030805@v.loewis.de>

Peter Jacobi wrote:
> a) ISO 8859-n vs ISO-8859-n
> If the information at 
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8859-1#ISO_8859-1_vs_ISO-8859-1 
> is correct, Python 8859-n 
> codecs do implement the ISO standard charsets ISO 8859-n 
> in the specialized IANA forms ISO-8859-n (and in agreement 
> with the Unicode mapping files). So any difficult C0/C1 
> wording in the original ISO standard can be disregarded.

I see. According to RFC 1345, this is definitely the case
for ISO-8859-1. ISO-8859-16 is not defined in an RFC, but
in

http://www.iana.org/assignments/charset-reg/ISO-8859-16

This is a confusing document, as it both refers to ISO/IEC
8859-16:2001 (no control characters), and the Unicode character
map (with control characters). We might interpret this as a
mistake, and assume that it was intended to include control
characters (as all the other ISO-8859-n).

For ISO-8859-11, the situation is even more confusing, as
that is no registered IANA character set, according to

http://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets

Therefore, it would be a protocol violation (strictly speaking)
if one would use iso-8859-11 in, say, a MIME charset= header.

Regards,
Martin


From antonmuhin at rambler.ru  Thu Aug 26 10:20:23 2004
From: antonmuhin at rambler.ru (anton muhin)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 18:20:23 +0400
Subject: Fun transformation problem
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.26.13.24.26.521173@riverhall_nospam_.co.uk>
References: <pan.2004.08.26.13.24.26.521173@riverhall_nospam_.co.uk>
Message-ID: <2p69vfFh7vf6U1@uni-berlin.de>

Dale Strickland-Clark wrote:
> A guy in the office has come up with this interesting transformation
> problem. We have a solution but I'm sure there's a neater, more 'pythonic' 
> approach.
> 
> I thought this might appeal to some here:
> 
> I want a function to convert a list of tuples into a hierarchy of
> dictionaries.  Let me first demonstrate with an example:
> 
> 
>>>>lstA = [(1, 2, 3), (1, 3, 4), (2, 5, 6)]
>>>>dctA = fncA(lstA)
>>>>print dctA
> 
> {1: {2: 3, 3: 4}, 2: {5: 6}}
> 
> 
> I essentially want the definition to fncA.  Here is another example:
> 
> 
>>>>lstA = [(1, 2, 3, 4) ,(3, 4, 5, 6), (3, 4, 6, 7), (3, 4, 6, 8), (3, 4,
> 
> 5, 1), (3, 4, 7, 9)]
> 
>>>>dctA = fncA(lstA)
>>>>print dctA
> 
> {1: {2: {3: 4}}, 3: {4: {5: 1, 6: 8, 7: 9}}}
> 
> 
> Each tuple in the original list must be unique after the last value is
> excluded (since these values are used to form the "hierarchical key".
> 
> I have written a function, which seems to work but looks very cumbersome.
> Could anyone point me to a simpler solution?
> 
> 
> 
> Dale Strickland-Clark
> Riverhall Systems

The following:

def transform(l):
   d = {}

   for t in l:
     c = d
     for e in t[:-2]:
       c = c.setdefault(e, {})
     c[t[-2]] = t[-1]

   return d

seems clear enough for me.

with the best regards,
anton.


From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 26 01:37:30 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 01:37:30 -0400
Subject: Why return None?
In-Reply-To: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
Message-ID: <jt6dnb98R-eH6rDcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>

Martin DeMello wrote:

> It seems to be a fairly common pattern for an object-modifying method to
> return None - however, this is often quite inconvenient.
...
> this is actually getting in my way a lot when scripting Blender - for
> instance, I can't say move(Vector([a,b,c]).normalize()), I have to do
> 	a = Vector([a,b,c])
> 	a.normalize()
> 	move(a)

By the way, the second version is much more readable than
the first, so perhaps there is a secondary reason for this
"return None" thing in addition to the more important one...

-Peter


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Mon Aug  2 18:27:44 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 17:27:44 -0500
Subject: parsing tar-style dates
References: <e940a049.0408021411.e206d97@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <TJmdnZqMZdRDIpPcRVn-sw@comcast.com>

There is a PEP on this located here:

http://shattered.teched.net/www.python.org/peps/pep-0321.html

FYI,

Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.

"Daniel M. Drucker" <ddrucker at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e940a049.0408021411.e206d97 at posting.google.com...
> Is there any way to parse tar-style dates like "tomorrow" or "next
> wednesday" in python, other than doing a system call to date
> --date="string" and then parsing its output?
>
> Daniel Drucker
> ddrucker at gmail.com




From wweston at att.net  Wed Aug 18 12:35:50 2004
From: wweston at att.net (wes weston)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:35:50 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <r7q4s9yy.fsf@python.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<41237124.4060600@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<r7q4s9yy.fsf@python.net>
Message-ID: <GzLUc.221813$OB3.19777@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>

Thomas Heller wrote:
> Robin Becker <robin at reportlab.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>Lucas Raab wrote:
>>
>>
>>>One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
>>>Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
>>>about....
>>>
>>
>>57, used to build my own logic using gas discharge tubes :)
> 
> 
> 48, but my first logic was build using 24V relays.

Thomas,
    I guess I did about 100 projects with 24v relays. This was
mostly in the oil and gas industry or emergency power.
wes



From webraviteja at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 05:00:29 2004
From: webraviteja at yahoo.com (Ravi Teja Bhupatiraju)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 02:00:29 -0700
Subject: Proposal for removing self
References: <T_7Xc.61360$Fg5.2281@attbi_s53>
	<b74e43f1.0408252333.48074974@posting.google.com>
	<gStXc.29013$DG.1381823@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <b74e43f1.0408270100.37dd529c@posting.google.com>

"Sean Ross" <sross at connectmail.carleton.ca> wrote in message news:<gStXc.29013$DG.1381823 at news20.bellglobal.com>...
> "Ravi Teja Bhupatiraju" <webraviteja at yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > __readonly__ would be another nicety.
> 
> Well, you could use this for __readonly__ (though I named it 'readable()'):
> http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/157768
> 
> or if you want to use meta-classes (and this recipe does use __readonly__):
> http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/197965
> 
> There are many similar implementations floating around.
> 
> As for removing self:
> http://starship.python.net/crew/mwh/hacks/selfless.py
> 
> Enjoy,
> Sean

Thanks Sean. This is interesting code. I should really learn about metaclasses.


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 14 09:35:48 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:35:48 -0400
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <9ADC3170-EDAF-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>
References: <9ADC3170-EDAF-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>
Message-ID: <cfl4fk$r5d$1@sea.gmane.org>

Chas Emerick wrote:

[...snip...]
> 
> The first time I saw this, I almost fell out of my chair:
> 
> def blah (args):
> ....[insert 50/100/200 lines here]
> blah = staticmethod(blah)
> 

me too.

[...snip...]
> 
> So, when I see:
> 
> @staticmethod
> def blah (args):
> ....[insert 100 lines]
> 
> I say, YES!
[...snip...]

I say, NO!  And I wonder why we feel a need to explicitly (and 
superflously) 'declare' something that is already clearly evident in the 
code (when recommended coding practices are followed).

class Foo:
    def blah(a, b):         # this is clearly a static method
       pass

    def blah(self, a, b):   # this is clearly an instance method
       pass

    def blah(klass, a, b):  # this is clearly a class method
       pass

Python was built (successfully) on the assumption that obvious 
interpretations of the code obviate the need for declarations.  Why 
wouldn't we continue with that mindset?

Paul



From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Tue Aug 24 22:34:09 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:34:09 -0700
Subject: python line editor
References: <6c283161.0408241511.625ea118@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1093401744.541364@news.commspeed.net>

I'm having a hard time understanding your question,

what exactly would
> /sFoo
> :i"Bar"
> :wq
>
do to a file, do you have a GUI available?

Have a look at sys.argv() and glob.glob() in the standard libraries they
might help.

Tom




From harry.g.george at boeing.com  Wed Aug  4 13:11:37 2004
From: harry.g.george at boeing.com (Harry George)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 17:11:37 GMT
Subject: Python CGI question/issue
References: <8697475.0408040823.4cb6fbac@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <xqxacxaygja.fsf@cola2.ca.boeing.com>

candrade at gmail.com (Carlos Andrade) writes:

> I have a working python script that takes in content from a form,
> cleans it up, adds html formatting and then places it into my
> index.html page on my server.  When I had index.html set up as :
> -rw-rw-r--  1 carlos  wheel   3517 Aug  4 09:51 index.html
> I could not write back to the file,
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/usr/local/www/cgi-bin/bob.py", line 24, in ?
>     file=open("../data/index.html","w")
> IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '../data/index.html'
> [Wed Aug  4 09:50:47 2004] [error] [client X.X.X.X] Premature end of
> script headers: /usr/local/www/cgi-bin/bob.py
> 
> and I though well shoot okay I need to make index.html -rw-rw-rw-,
> when then made me a little paranoid.  Is there a more simpler way to
> make it possible for me to write back to index.html?

The cgi is running as whatever the webserver is set for, probably
"nobody".  So it doesn't matter that you personally own the file.  The
cgi can only edit the file if "nobody" can do so.

Changing files on a website can be done many ways.  They have little
to do with python per se, though they can be done with python.

1. For fairly simple tasks, why not rewrite the app as a batch job,
   run it as you in a sandbox, and then copy the resulting html file
   to the web-visible docs dir.  That way you can control the
   permissions in the copy process.  If it is a remote site, and you
   need ftp, consider ftpmirror.py and similar tools.

2. You have almost described a Content Mgmt System (CMS), and
   something like zope plone might do what you want.  Or for ad hoc
   editing you consider a wiki (e.g., moinmoin).

3. webdav is the official mechanism for web editing.  I haven't tried
   it personally.

4. There is an apache module for changing user and group during a cgi.
   It comes with all kinds of dire warnings.

5. If you can run your own webserver, it can be run as you, and thus
   can control those files.  Better would be to make a totally new
   userid just for this task.

6. You could run your own web service, e.g., via Twisted.  As with a
   std webserver, it is better to have a separate userid for the task.


-- 
harry.g.george at boeing.com
6-6M21 BCA CompArch Design Engineering
Phone: (425) 342-0007


From davidf at sjsoft.com  Fri Aug  6 04:47:57 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 10:47:57 +0200
Subject: Trimming a string
In-Reply-To: <10gsotqjc2qrl54@news.supernews.com>
References: <10gsmuieo65du5d@news.supernews.com>
	<ektPc.165630$OB3.11201@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
	<10gsotqjc2qrl54@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <cevgjt$ok1$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

Actually your answer was a bit ruder than his

Double Dumbass on You wrote:
> Do you feel better about yourself for having posted a smug, shithead-type
> answer, troll??
> 
> As a matter of fact, I was in a near fatal car wreck about 7 years ago.
> Suffered some brain damage.  Now, I can't remember minute details such as
> that which I asked.  I have read the python documentation numerous times.
> Sometimes, I just need a simple answer to a simple question, you simple
> *********.
> 
> ***************, it will be time well spent for you.
> 
> "wes weston" <wweston at att.net> wrote in message
> news:ektPc.165630$OB3.11201 at bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> 
>>Double Dumbass on You wrote:
>>
>>>I have a string that is 7 characters and represents file mode in
> 
> UNIX/LINUX
> 
>>>from rpm:
>>>
>>>0100755
>>>
>>>I don't care about the 0100 portion, I am only interested in the file
>>>permissions portion which is 755.  How can I get three characters from
> 
> the
> 
>>>string starting at the right?  ( -OR- strip 4 characters from the
> 
> left? )
> 
>>>
>>DD,
>>
>> >>> x = "0100755"
>> >>> print x[4:]
>>755
>>
>>    Reading the tutorial is really time well spent.
>>wes
>>
> 
> 
> 


From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Thu Aug 19 15:07:07 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:07:07 -0400
Subject: My only complaint about Python
In-Reply-To: <cg2p8k$h3a$1@news.uni-kl.de>
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>	<cg2ko0$2jl$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
	<mailman.1975.1092934935.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cg2p8k$h3a$1@news.uni-kl.de>
Message-ID: <W8KdnRJFYujGZ7ncRVn-vw@giganews.com>

Dominic wrote:


> I have successfully built libpython23.a using
> implib.exe provided with the free Borland C/C++ command line
> compiler package.

> Once this is done, cygwin-gcc can be used to create
> _native_ windows modules.

> If someone is interested I'll try to collect the
> necessary commands and flags from my Makefiles.

I'm interested. You should even make your copy of
libpython23.a downloadable too.

Istvan,


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Thu Aug 26 21:16:42 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:16:42 +1000
Subject: cookie
In-Reply-To: <oekxem1a.fsf@pobox.com>
References: <mailman.2410.1093515779.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<oekxem1a.fsf@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <1093569402.412e8b7a706ec@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

they dont cause any harm, except for a an extra statement removing those
quotes when i read the cookie, parse it and authenticate the session.
the question is - is that normal cookie behaviour?
cookie["test"]="blah"
print cookie

prints test=blah and not test="blah"
so why the quotes when i do the same thing, but use a variable instead of a
string literal?

cheers


Quoting "John J. Lee" <jjl at pobox.com>:

> Ajay <abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au> writes:
>
> > hi!
> >
> > i am printing a simple cookie, but instead of printing
> > um=name:blah&access:admin&exp:2312390.909
> >
> > its printing
> > um="name:blah&access:admin&exp:2312390.909"
> >
> > why the quotes?
>
> Why not?
>
> I don't see how they'd cause any harm.
>
>
> John
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 25 07:39:10 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 07:39:10 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed2040824200256aff0f0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040824200256aff0f0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cghtot$lao$2@sea.gmane.org>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:29:38 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>....that they warrant an entirely new syntax?  It seems that they are
>>very similar in a very significant way --- they alter the default
>>behavior of something.  IMO, it's not a stretch to say that they
>>'parallel' metaclasses; that they are to functions/methods what
>>metaclasses are to classes.  So why don't they share a similar syntax?
> 
> 
> No. Function decorators are to functions as class decorators are to classes.
> 

Maybe, if they ever show up.  But until then metaclasses are the closest 
thing.


> Class decorators are not in 2.4, because you can do most things you'd
> do with a class decorator by using a metaclass, but in a completely
> different way. In my opinion, class decorators _should_ be in 2.4,
> because they're a much saner way to handle many things that require a
> metaclass today.
> 

I'd like to see a compelling example of Class decorators.  Something 
that justifies using them instead of metaclasses.



> They don't "alter the default behaviour". A metaclass allows the user
> to specify an object that builds classes in a new way. A decorator
> allows the user to specify a way to transform the already built
> function (or class, for class decorators).
> 

If you want to think about them that way, go ahead.  But it's easier 
(and I believe just as valid) to think about them in terms of altering 
the default behavior of an object.  For example...

    class Foo:
        __metaclass__ = M         # comment out for default behavior

When I use a metaclass, I don't want to "specify an object that builds 
classes in a new way".  That's an awkward way to think about it.  I want 
to change the behavior of *my* class.  Period.  Likewise, when I use a 
decorator, say 'memoized', on my function, I most definitely *do not* 
want to think about what's going on under the hood --- that my function 
is first created, then 'transformed' by the memoized decorator.  No.  I 
want to think that my function simply has the 'memoized' feature and let 
the system worry about the details of making that happen.




From zathras at thwackety.com  Sun Aug 22 10:01:39 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 15:01:39 +0100
Subject: [PATCH] RE: J2 decorator grammar
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408221104090.22879-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>
	<mailman.2147.1093173853.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4128ac0f$0$79299$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>

Anthony Baxter wrote:

> On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:05:35 +0100 (BST), Michael Sparks
> <zathras at thwackety.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, 22 Aug 2004, Anthony Baxter wrote:
>> > On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 01:41:58 +0100 (BST), Michael Sparks wrote
>> > > The patch can be found here:
>> > >    * http://thwackety.com/decorator_syntax_J2.patch
>> >
>> > Good to see. There's a few more bits than this that need to be
>> > done, though - see http://www.python.org/sf/979728 for the original
>> > @decorator patch, this should show you what else needs to be
>> > changed.
>> 
>> Many thanks for the pointer. I'll try and make sure I cover all the
>> bases, but I suspect I'll miss something, but I'll try not to :)
> 
> Well, in the comments for that patch, I listed all of the files changed by
> the @syntax - that at least gives you a 'to-do list' to work through.

That's what I'm doing - I'm also working through the patch itself to see
what needs changing. So far my changes include:
   * Doc/lib/libfuncs.tex - Changed examples from @ format
     to decorate: format
   * Doc/ref/ref7.tex 
      - changed Function Definitions production rules to match
        the change in syntax.
      - Changed example to use the change in syntax.
   * Lib/compiler/transformer.py - Modified to handle the new syntax
   * Lib/test/test_parser.py - Changed tests for old syntax to check new
     form
   * Lib/test/tokenize_tests.txt - changed @staticmethod to J2 format
   * Lib/test/output/test_tokenize - Changed to match the changed test file
   * Modules/parsermodule.c - Changed to support new Grammar
   * Lib/test/pyclbr_input.py - Changed from @ syntax to decorate: syntax
   * Lib/test/test_decorators.py - changed all "decorate" functions to
     decorate_ and all @ usages to "decorate:" syntax.

Stuff I've not changed after checking:
   * Doc/lib/asttable.tex - Can't see any necessary changes
   * Lib/compiler/pycodegen.py - Can't see any necessary changes
   * Lib/compiler/symbols.py - Can't see any necessary changes
   * Tools/compiler/ast.txt - Can't see any necessary changes
   * Tools/compiler/astgen.py - Can't see any necessary changes
   * Tools/compiler/regrtest.py - No changes
   * I can't see whether ast.py should/should not be changed and
     if it should, *how* it should be changed, as a result I've left
     well alone.

Current Issues (which I want to resolve before posting to SF):
   * Keyword clash with test suite is bad - suggest change to "using"
     to limit clash with existing user code as far as possible.
     (Also "def decorate python" shows *lots* of results on google, which
     is the other reason :)
   * Patch is against the vanilla 2.4a2 download from python.org, does
     this need changing to being a patch against the current CVS head?
     (I suspect the answer to this is "yes")

It should be done sometime this afternoon though. (Bulk of the time taken up
is on re-running the test suite unsuprisingly)

> Once you've got what you think is the complete set, create a patch and
> post it to SF.

Will do.

Best Regards,


Michael.



From pete at shinners.org  Thu Aug 19 10:54:35 2004
From: pete at shinners.org (Pete Shinners)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:54:35 -0700
Subject: Platform independent way to play an mp3 file
In-Reply-To: <41239EAB.903@geochemsource.com>
References: <31575A892FF6D1118F5800600846864D01AE29A3@intrepid>
	<41239EAB.903@geochemsource.com>
Message-ID: <cg2esu$elk$1@sea.gmane.org>

Gandalf wrote:
> Oh, okay. That's fine. At least I can tell something to my bosses. :-D
> But what about FreeBSD?

You can go with pygame, but it comes with a bit of overhead for simply 
playing MP3 audio. I'll also warn you that the decoder it depends on 
isn't spectacular, it won't parse files with ID3V2 tags might be your 
biggest problem.

     import pygame
     pygame.mixer.init()
     pygame.mixer.music.load("music.mp3")
     pygame.mixer.music.play(-1) #loop infinitely

     #music will play indefinitely until program ends



From alanmk at hotmail.com  Tue Aug  3 09:11:22 2004
From: alanmk at hotmail.com (Alan Kennedy)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 14:11:22 +0100
Subject: socket.sendall(), non-blocking sockets,
 and multi-threaded socket sending
In-Reply-To: <b5fef63b.0408021129.6e92cf64@posting.google.com>
References: <b5fef63b.0408021129.6e92cf64@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <410F8EFA.8010207@hotmail.com>

[Tim Black]
> My application requires sending a large piece (~2MB) of data to
> several devices on a network via TCP sockets. I have experimented with
> different methods for doing this and this has raised some questions
> about the implementation of Python sockets.
> 
> (both methods use blocking sockets)
> 
> Method 1: Calls socket.sendall(data) for each device in sequence, all
> in a single thread.
> 
> Method 2: Each socket has its own thread that calls
> socket.send(datachunk) iteratively until all data is sent.
> 
> So Method 1 sends all data to device1, then send all data to device2,
> etc... until all data is sent to all devices. Method 2 sends chunks of
> data to all devices in parallel. What I am seeing is that Method 1 is
> faster than Method 2. Given that the bottleneck is the actual sending
> of data on the sockets and not some latency in processing the message
> at the other end, this result makes sense to me. Method 2 involves
> sending the data in smaller chunks, whereas with Method 1 the
> chunksize is selected by the TCP/IP stack implementation, which is
> probably more efficient. Also, Method 2 entails context switching
> between the send threads.
> 
> It turns out that using Method 1, all sendall() calls return
> immediately. I am assuming at this point that my app is in the hands
> of the TCP/IP stack implementation on my machine (win32-XP). Can
> anyone explain what happens inside sendall() for Win32?
> 
> Also, I would like to get advice and opinions on what is the most
> efficient way to broadcast data to several devices on a network.

I'd love to have enough time to get into discussing your findings 
about sockets. But unfortunately, I don't :-(

But I did want to point out a module that you may not have come across 
that makes the job of distributing information peer-to-peer over LANs 
very easy: the spread module. I highly recommend that you take a look 
over it: it could save you a lot of wheel-reinvention.

http://www.python.org/other/spread/

HTH,

-- 
alan kennedy
------------------------------------------------------
check http headers here: http://xhaus.com/headers
email alan:              http://xhaus.com/contact/alan


From fumanchu at amor.org  Mon Aug 23 21:46:19 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 18:46:19 -0700
Subject: newbie: confused with example in Learning Python 2nd Edition:
	cananyone give a hint
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E4B@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Porky Pig Jr wrote:
> Here is an example of Stack class which got me totally confused:
> 
> >>> class Stack:
> ...     def __init__(self, data):
> ...             self._data = list(data)
> ...             self.push = data.append
> ...             self.pop = data.pop
> ... 
> 
> What I don't understand: we take the 'data' input (a list), and copy
> it to semi-private instance attribute _data. Something like this:
> 
> >>> mystack = Stack([1,2,3])
> >>> dir(mystack)
> ['__doc__', '__init__', '__module__', '_data', 'pop', 'push']
> >>> mystack._data
> [1, 2, 3]
> 
> So: why defitions of self.push and self.pop are defined as
> 'data.append' rather than '_data.append', etc. What makes me yet more
> confused: the whole thing works just fine, and yet I can't figure out
> in which attribute we store the results of pushes and where pops are
> coming from.
> Like I push '4' on a stack:
> 
> >>> mystack.push(4)
> 
> and yet this does not affect _data (obviously):
> >>> mystack._data
> [1, 2, 3]
> 
> and yet '4' is stored *somewhere*, since pop() produces the right
> result:
> 
> >>> mystack.pop()
> 4
> >>> 
> 
> Where is that hidden instance attribute and how can I access it? Seems
> like very simple definition, and yet there is something tricky about
> it.

Hint: Python doesn't have variables like other languages do. The line:

    self._data = list(data)

does not make a copy of "data". Instead, it binds a new name
(self._data) to the same object which the name "data" refers to.


FuManChu


From curzio.basso at unibas.ch  Wed Aug 11 03:56:52 2004
From: curzio.basso at unibas.ch (Curzio Basso)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 09:56:52 +0200
Subject: how to dispatch objects depending on their class
In-Reply-To: <21064255.0408102235.331f5f49@posting.google.com>
References: <4118dd4a$1@maser.urz.unibas.ch>
	<21064255.0408102235.331f5f49@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <4119d149$1@maser.urz.unibas.ch>

Peter Abel wrote:

> At my opinion you try to do something outside a class which should
> be a basic task of OOP. Why not let the instances do their class-specific
> things:

I know that this situation would be typically handled by putting the 
logic in the class hierarchy, but as I wrote I don't want this. In fact, 
as cmedcoff at hotmail.com pointed out, at the end what I want to implement 
is a visitor pattern (maybe I should have simply mentioned this). In C++ 
then the right implementations are chosen at compile time because of the 
function overloading, but in Python I have to find a different way to 
implement this.

cheers, curzio


From fumanchu at amor.org  Tue Aug 24 00:11:53 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:11:53 -0700
Subject: profiler
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E4D@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

grv575 wrote:
> I have some speed-critical loops involving numarray arrays and need to
> see which part is taking all the time.  Is there a seperate profiling
> tool or how do you go about profiling everything (broken down by
> module/function) in an interpreted language like python?

The Standard Library has a module named "hotshot" which you might want
to take a look at:

http://docs.python.org/lib/module-hotshot.html

...which is a replacement for the older "profile" module:

http://docs.python.org/lib/module-profile.html


HTH,

FuManChu


From plucker-dev-admin at rubberchicken.org  Sun Aug 22 09:11:03 2004
From: plucker-dev-admin at rubberchicken.org (plucker-dev-admin at rubberchicken.org)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 23:11:03 +1000
Subject: Your message to plucker-dev awaits moderator approval
Message-ID: <20040822131103.17450.16922.Mailman@ike.inomial.com>

Your mail to 'plucker-dev' with the subject

    Stolen document

Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.

The reason it is being held:

    Post by non-member to a members-only list

Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
notification of the moderator's decision.


From martindemello at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 21 16:29:13 2004
From: martindemello at yahoo.com (Martin DeMello)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 20:29:13 GMT
Subject: serial iteration over several lists
Message-ID: <tgOVc.176766$gE.1703@pd7tw3no>

Within Blender, I have access to a list of Objects, each Object
containing a list of Meshes and each Mesh a list of Faces. I'd like to
implement a face iterator, with both a next() and a prev() method, such
that if I go off the end of a face list, it goes to the first face in
the next mesh, similarly for going off the end of the last mesh in an
object, and similarly for the prev() iterator.

In other words, I want to simulate appending all the faces into one long
list, but without the overhead of actually creating the list. I can
think of several ways to do it, but they all feel like solutions
'translated' from some other language - is there a nice pythonic way to
do this?

martin


From dougfort at dougfort.com  Sun Aug 22 09:37:53 2004
From: dougfort at dougfort.com (Doug Fort)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 13:37:53 GMT
Subject: request for logging SyslogHandler help
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.22.13.37.53.10180@dougfort.com>

Hi,

Perhaps this is as much a Unix question as a Python question.

I really like the Python logging module, and I've used it extensively,
with good results. Now I have a requirement to add a SysLogHandler,  and
it's just not working. It looks like the socket is connecting, but nothing
comes out on the log. (Fedora Core 2 /var/log/messages)

The simplest of many configurations I have tried is included below.
A FileHandler in the same config file works fine.

Does anyone have experience in this area? Do I need a  special format or 
something?

[handler_syslog]
class=handlers.SysLogHandler
level=NOTSET
formatter=verboseformat
args=()

-- 
Doug Fort, Consulting Programmer
http://www.dougfort.com



From richardjones at optushome.com.au  Tue Aug 31 18:50:24 2004
From: richardjones at optushome.com.au (richard)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 08:50:24 +1000
Subject: PyPI
References: <ch1pfc$1tqd$1@news.vol.cz>
Message-ID: <413500b0$0$8893$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>

p.kosina wrote:
> I tried to make a registration on www.python.org/PyPI, but no email
> confirmation received. Is it working? Is anyone responsible for that here?

Please use the "Get help" link under "Contact Us" in the PyPI sidebar.


    Richard



From nicksjacobson at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 22 02:38:55 2004
From: nicksjacobson at yahoo.com (Nick Jacobson)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 23:38:55 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WE
	DONE?
References: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <f8097096.0408212238.193626ad@posting.google.com>

> 
> Please start giving some thought to what the 'decorate' keyword should be.
> If we can get/keep this selection to a manageable list, then we should have
> another multivote some time next week.
> 
> -- Paul


How about 'predef'?

--Nick


From cckk_lin at yahoo.ie  Mon Aug 30 04:23:36 2004
From: cckk_lin at yahoo.ie (Lin Jingxian)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:23:36 +0800
Subject: use win32 COM in python
Message-ID: <cguo6j$j67$1@news.yaako.com>

hi,
  I have a C++ implemented COM server that give out a method like: int
read(unsigned char* buf, int lenth), How can I use this method from python?
what is the signature?
or anyone can tell me how should I design the COM interface so I can use
python to read a chunk of bytes from a C++ implemented COM server.

thanks.




From elbertlev at hotmail.com  Thu Aug  5 15:13:57 2004
From: elbertlev at hotmail.com (Elbert Lev)
Date: 5 Aug 2004 12:13:57 -0700
Subject: ODBC bug
Message-ID: <9418be08.0408051113.2551257b@posting.google.com>

# W2K MSSQL-2000

import dbi, odbc

myconn = odbc.odbc('DSN=db; UID=sa; PWD=')
mycursor = myconn.cursor()

mycursor.execute("SELECT ID, PWD FROM TABLE")
rs = mycursor.fetchall()
for ID, PWD in rs:
    upd = "UPDATE TABLE SET PWD = \'%s\' WHERE ID = %u" % \
                    (encode(PWD), ID)
    mycursor.execute(upd)
    myconn.commit()   

#This script updates (encodes) passwords in the database, 
#but does this rather slowly if the the recordset contains 2000
records.

To speedup I decided to concatenate upd strings and execute it:

mycursor.execute("SELECT ID, PWD FROM TABLE")
rs = mycursor.fetchall()
updlst = []
for ID, PASSWORD in rs:
    upd = "UPDATE TABLE SET PWD = \'%s\' WHERE ID = %u" % \
                    (encode(PWD), ID)
    updlst.append(upd)
upd = " ".join(updlst)
mycursor.execute(upd)
myconn.commit()

#This one works much faster, but if the joined upd string is longer
then about 40K ONLY THE FIRST 40K are actually executed. The rest is
IGNORED. No exceptions and execute() returnes 1.


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Aug 18 18:07:05 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 18:07:05 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<du7wtzwfb8b.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>
Message-ID: <cg0ju9$97s$1@panix3.panix.com>

In article <du7wtzwfb8b.fsf at lehtori.cc.tut.fi>,
Ville Vainio  <ville at spammers.com> wrote:
>
>I'm also optimistic about retiring with Python, because *everyone* is
>going to retire with Python in 2044 :-).

2038
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU  Wed Aug 18 10:11:47 2004
From: Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU (Michael J. Fromberger)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 10:11:47 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
References: <mailman.1829.1092785390.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<65adnQrUKILiC7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1834.1092791633.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<m2vffgd6pu.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
	<mailman.1858.1092832530.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Michael.J.Fromberger-6AF702.10114718082004@localhost>

In article <mailman.1858.1092832530.5135.python-list at python.org>,
 Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dan Sommers wrote:
> > I don't understand how assigning semantic significance to a 
> > "recommended coding practice" is Pythonic.
> > 
> > In the face of ambiguity, refuse to guess.
> > 
> > Explicit is better than implicit.
> 
> Good conventions prevent ambiguity.
> 
>     class Foo:
>        def method1(self, a, b): pass       # clearly an instance method
>        def method2(cls, a, b): pass        # clearly a class method
>        def method3(a, b): pass             # clearly a static method

I think this is a terrible idea.  What you are proposing is essentially 
that Python should assign special meaning to the identifiers "self" and 
"cls" when they appear as the first variable in a method definition 
inside a class.  I am having a hard time thinking of anything LESS in 
the spirit of Python, short of writing in unstructured BASIC.

Good conventions do not prevent ambiguity, they merely help alleviate 
its effects.  And a "convention" that is enforced by the translator is 
no longer a convention, but a rule of the language. 

> When declarations conflict with conventions, it makes us wonder what the 
> author really intended.
> 
>        def staticmethod setX(self, x):
>            self.x = x

I find this at least as easy to understand as the current idiom:

    def setX(self, x):
      self.x = x
    setX = staticmethod(setX)

> You're right, this thread is about decorators, not about more 
> opportunities for dynamic typing. 

Actually, as I read it, this thread is about getting back to the 
original question PEP-318 was intended to answer, rather than all the 
other cruft that the "decorators" idea has become laden with.  

-M

-- 
Michael J. Fromberger             | Lecturer, Dept. of Computer Science
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~sting/  | Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Sun Aug 29 14:06:34 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 20:06:34 +0200
Subject: regex into str
In-Reply-To: <cgt5hf$8lv$06$2@news.t-online.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408290203530.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<mailman.2571.1093744862.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgt5hf$8lv$06$2@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408292005500.1170-100000@kleigh.nl>

Diez B. Roggisch schreef:

> Jeff Epler wrote:
>
> > This is intended to be impossible.
> >
> > Even if you could assign to str.__div__ (and this is very deliberately and
> > specifically disallowed) you would end up disappointed, because strings
> > are immutable.  That means there's nowhere to store "the last match",
> > no way to mutate the string with the "/=" operator, and also that the
> > interpreter is free to use the same storage for two equal strings.
>
> Another reason for not allowing this is that modifying builtins can lead to
> severe bugs, as other libs might rely on certain functionality. If you
> change that, things start getting very weird....

Programming causes bugs. That's not a reason to disallow programming.

-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From imbosol at aerojockey.com  Fri Aug 13 19:43:34 2004
From: imbosol at aerojockey.com (Carl Banks)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 16:43:34 -0700
Subject: PEP-0318
References: <41122FC2.1080608@interlink.com.au><mailman.1251.1091764482.5135.python-list@python.org><4114152f@nntp.zianet.com>
	<411a5cee$1@nntp.zianet.com><mailman.1518.1092247596.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<411a9a7f$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<mailman.1538.1092263133.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<411ac17f@nntp.zianet.com>
Message-ID: <60dfb6f6.0408131543.1e0075f0@posting.google.com>

Mark Bottjer <mark_bottjer at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<411ac17f at nntp.zianet.com>...
> Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> > Mark Bottjer wrote:
> >> Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> >>>calling a function with an argument?  that's a pretty common
> >>>operation, if you're asking me
> >>
> >>Indeed it is. And that fact bears on this conversion how?
> > 
> > that's what a decorator does, of course.
> 
> No it isn't. A decorator queues a function to be called, on something 
> not yet defined, after that something gets defined.

Gee, so does the statement "map(function,[1,2,3])"


just-sayin-ly yr's,

-- 
CARL BANKS


From gherron at islandtraining.com  Fri Aug 20 12:35:50 2004
From: gherron at islandtraining.com (Gary Herron)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:35:50 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200408200935.51189.gherron@islandtraining.com>

My vote: 
  J2 J2 and J2
because it puts everything in the correct position (meaning in the
same position as the pie syntax), but still *LOOKS* like python.

Keyword could remain "decorate", but I'd be fid just about anything
acceptable.

Gary Herron






From stefan at eischet.com  Wed Aug 11 12:47:20 2004
From: stefan at eischet.com (Stefan Eischet)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 18:47:20 +0200
Subject: Rather than decorators, how about sections?
In-Reply-To: <cfdegs$5oo$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <cfdegs$5oo$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1C74C038-EBB6-11D8-8889-000A95857E5C@eischet.com>

Hi,

do we really need this stuff just to say "staticmethod" and 
"classmethod"? How about:

class Foo(object):
     def baz():
         print "Static Method"
     def bar(self):
         print "Method"
     def spam(Foo):
         print "Class Method"

Notice that the "normal" method, as usual, contains "self" as a first 
argument, while the static method does not. This would probably require 
making "self" a keyword; perhaps someone with more knowledge about 
Python internals could comment on this? Is anyone using another first 
parameter, e.g. "this"?
I'm not sure about the class method syntax, though; better ideas anyone?

I'm not saying you shouldn't have your pie-or-whatever decorators for 
other purposes, but I think that the above would be sufficient to solve 
the original problem of staticmethod/classmethod just as well.

Someone recently said that, as a new feature, decorators should look 
new. I'd say that especially the rusty old feature of static methods 
should *not* have a new look.

Cheers,
   Stefan

On 11.08.2004, at 17:38, Paul Morrow wrote:

> I like many am not wild about the <at> operator.  I also don't think 
> that the decorator syntax should be so directly attached to the 
> method, since what we're trying to do is to say something about the 
> *relationship between* a method and a class (e.g. "method m is a 
> staticmethod of class C").
>
> So if we are going to extend the Python grammar to support this sort 
> of thing (which I believe is a good idea), my preference would be to 
> introduce named sections within a class definition, such as...
>
>     class Foo(object):
>         staticmethods:
>             def baz(a,b):
>                 print "I'm a static method."
>             def bez(c,d):
>                 print "I'm a static method too."
>
>         classmethods:
>             def biz(klass):
>                 print "I'm a class method."
>
>
>         def __init__(self):
>             print "We all know what I am."
>
>
> -- 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
>
// stefan at eischet.com //



From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu  Mon Aug 16 20:47:27 2004
From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Daniel Yoo)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 00:47:27 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Python / scheme implement
References: <8kcUc.216223$pC2.10693727@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
Message-ID: <cfrkiv$1eti$1@agate.berkeley.edu>

Vent d'Est - East Wind <po-yung.liu at pandora.be> wrote:
: Can somebody tell me what s exactly the difference beetween scheme and 
: python languages

: i m thiking to learn one of them but i m not sure wich one

: somebody told me python is better and have much library
: somebody told me scheme is much smarter and have nice structure

Hello!


What programming language experience do you already have?


If you're looking for Scheme learning resources, you may want to look
at the PLT web site:

    http://www.plt-scheme.org/

In particular, the Scheme folks have written a few books for learning
the language; the link above has an online version of "How to Design
Programs", which is an excellent book.  Another great book whose
implementation language is Scheme is "The Structure And Interpretation
of Computer Programs":

    http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/



On the Python side, you may want to look at:

    http://www.python.org/topics/learn/

If you are a beginner to programming, visit:

    http://www.python.org/topics/learn/non-prog.html

which includes links to introductory programming tutorials.



: i also see a project about a scheme/python implementation
: here is the url
: http://plt-spy.sourceforge.net/home.html
: i m not sure what s really but seems cool if someone know more about it 
:  or have some concrete exemple  it can be more understable

If you are interested in the other direction, I have a weak Scheme
interpreter that's written in Python:

    http://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~dyoo/python/pyscheme/

It's not perfect (and frankly, is a little outdated!), but it's a
proof-of-concept that one language can model the other.


Personally, I like both languages, so my advice would be to look at
them both.  (But perhaps not at the same time...  *grin*)


Good luck to you!


From fred at acme.com  Mon Aug  9 19:26:46 2004
From: fred at acme.com (Fred)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 01:26:46 +0200
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
	<278de0e.0408090935.6d758a5d@posting.google.com>
	<i0ffh01guveqks1n854c2g4l75dbdg57rr@4ax.com>
	<30260531.0408091506.294cec8a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <kl1gh0l4p2ge2i0f4j67q94hn8b2tl48g2@4ax.com>

On 9 Aug 2004 16:06:01 -0700, simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (simo) wrote:
>py2exe is the best program for [pseudo] compiling your Python app, and
>bundling all the necessary DLLs etc. together on Windows. I've used
>py2exe with PyQt/wxPython sucessfully

OK, I'll give it a closer look then. I don't care about decompiling,
but simply to find a way to easily deploy Python + wxWidgets + our app
on bare Windows hosts.

>InnoSetup is an excellant installation package program that can take
>the output of py2exe (or whatever) and make a Setup.exe, it's not MSI
>mind you, but is free

Yup, it's a nice app. I prefer to use NSIS because it has a scripting
language, though.

>IMHO a *machine code* compiler is what is really holding pack Python
>adoption on the desktop by a lot of companies

I read somewhere that the very roots of Python (being a dynamic
language?) make it difficult to write a compiler that outputs machine
code. But then, it seems pretty easy to call DLLs from Python, so I'll
just write the number crunching parts in PowerBasic if Python proves
to be too slow for this kind of thing.

>You could wait for IronPython (or MS Visual Python.NET as it will
>probably become!) if you want a standalone binary.....

But then, I was investigating whether there's an alternative to VB to
write GUI apps in Windows as easily and productively, so am a bit
reluctant to go the .Net way :-)

Thx a lot
Fred.


From chakari at acsalaska.net  Mon Aug 23 16:46:55 2004
From: chakari at acsalaska.net (akbowbender)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 13:46:55 -0700
Subject: Can't run program on Eclipse 3 w/pydev 0.4.2
Message-ID: <99bb88dc.0408231246.580a0f73@posting.google.com>

I am trying to run a Python program with the above setup, but I get an
exception error during launch; Error within Debug UI. This happens on
Windows 2000 and on my Linux system. Has anyone run into this, and if
so, found a fix?


From tundra at tundraware.com  Sat Aug 21 15:29:53 2004
From: tundra at tundraware.com (Tim Daneliuk)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 15:29:53 EDT
Subject: My only complaint about Python
In-Reply-To: <874qmxj81k.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<CuCdnUCvWK5XSLncRVn-jw@giganews.com>
	<sr3iv1-b5c1.ln1@eskimo.tundraware.com>
	<874qmxj81k.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>
Message-ID: <l8kkv1-v652.ln1@eskimo.tundraware.com>

510046470588-0001 at t-online.de wrote:
> Tim Daneliuk <tundra at tundraware.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>Istvan Albert wrote:
>>
>>>In all fairness this is more the problem with Microsoft than
>>>python. If they had a free fully-featured compiler then Python
>>>would be compiled with that.
>>
>>
>>They do.  MSC/C++ is now available at NO cost:
>>
> 
> 
> no cost is not the same as free
> 
> Klaus Schilling

<Goes Off The Reservation For A Moment>

"No Cost" is _exactly_ the same thing as "Free". It is not the same
thing as "Open Source".

The debate is foolish in any case. If I use an GPLed compiler, even with
the Lesser License, I have constraints placed upon what I may or may
not do with the derivative work. If I use a commercial compiler, I do
not have access to the source code _for the compiler_, but (usually)
there are no constraints placed upon what I may do with the derivative
work.

This whole mentality of "it must be 'free' or it's bad" is very silly
and at odds with how the world actually operates (aka Reality). I use
both freely available open source tools and commercial tools (that I've
paid for and licensed legitimately). Each has a place. One is not
inherently better than another.

The "freeness" of a particular product is only one of a number of
dimensions I examine when making tool choices for myself or my clients.
"Open Source" is often irrelevant to people - how many people actually
want to examine and modify the guts of compiler?  Far more important than
the cost of acquistion is the _cost of ownership_.  This is influenced
by a lot of things:

1) Training
2) Maintenance
3) Stability/Quality
4) Documentation
5) 3rd-Party support

IOW, I couldn't care less if something is "free", "freely available",
"open source", "closed source", or "commercial" software.  I care about
whether it solves the problem at hand in a time- and cost-effective manner.

Unfortunately, Stallman and his ilk - for all their many contributions to
our field - have polluted the discussion with their hare-brained political
notions, naive ideas about intellectual property, and incessant whining
that everyone _else_ should "share" they way they define the term.  I tire
of it as you may be able to tell from this short rant ...

Pax ...

</Back On The Reservation>

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk     tundra at tundraware.com
PGP Key:         http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/


From olli at haluter.fromme.com  Mon Aug 23 12:24:31 2004
From: olli at haluter.fromme.com (Oliver Fromme)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 16:24:31 GMT
Subject: Overriding logical operators?
References: <04Aug21.160611edt.97252@mail.srv.cquest.utoronto.ca>
	<mailman.2125.1093126079.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2ouk1vFf0ujnU1@uni-berlin.de>

Andrew Durdin <adurdin at gmail.com> wrote:
 > On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:06:08 -0500, Chris Siebenmann
 > <cks at cquest.utoronto.ca> wrote:
 > >  Conceptually, 'and' and 'or' (and 'not') don't operate on objects:
 > > they operate on truth values (generally derived from objects).
 > 
 > But in Python, a "truth value" is an object: a bool object.

Actually, that's not the whole truth.  ;-)

The logical operators on Python operate on arbitrary objects
interpreted in a boolean context, but they're not restricted
to bool objects.  Furthermore, the "or" and "and" operators
return the operand which has been evaluated last, which can
be an arbitrary object (not neccessarily a bool object).  Of
course, the "not" operator always returns a real bool object
(either True or False).

For example, the expression ``"ugh" or 15'' evaluates to the
string "ugh", and ``0 or []'' evaluates to an empty list.

So, the logical operators have more built-in magic than just
short-circuit evaluation.  The details are in the Language
Reference.  Providing a clean facility to override them in
Python would be very difficult, I guess.

I suggest you simply define your own functions to do what
you need to do, instead of overriding "or" and "and".  If
you only need to work with boolean values, you could derive
your own bool class and override the "+" and "*" operators,
of course.

Best regards
   Oliver

-- 
Oliver Fromme, Konrad-Celtis-Str. 72, 81369 Munich, Germany

``All that we see or seem is just a dream within a dream.''
(E. A. Poe)


From remi at cherrypy.org  Fri Aug 27 12:26:59 2004
From: remi at cherrypy.org (Remi Delon)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 09:26:59 -0700
Subject: Web Application - User Management - RBAC
References: <mailman.2422.1093527057.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <585c0de9.0408270826.4e4b5bf6@posting.google.com>

> I would like to implement RBAC(Role Based Access Control) in the app. How would
> one best go about that ?

Well, CherryPy comes with a module called "CookieSessionAuthenticate"
but it provides only 2 states: either a user is logged or he's not.
If a user is logged in then you'll get automatically his username.
You'll have to write your own code that checks the privileges that
this user has and if he's allowed to do such and such action or not.

It also depends on what level of precision you want the privileges to
have (it could be at the URL level or at the individual function call
level) ...

But overall, it shouldn't be too hard to implement thanks to Python
:-)

Regards,

Remi.


From dfan at harmonixmusic.com  Mon Aug 16 17:44:22 2004
From: dfan at harmonixmusic.com (Dan Schmidt)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 17:44:22 -0400
Subject: Newbie question about file input
References: <cfqj3s$cti$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
	<4120e398$0$65575$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <uhdr2iwqx.fsf@turangalila.harmonixmusic.com>

Grant Edwards <grante at visi.com> writes:

| If you want to be particularly obtuse we can rely on the fact
| that True evaluates to 1 and and False evaluates to 0, and just
| sum up the boolean values returned by .startswith().  That only
| takes one line (not counting the "import operator"):
| 
|  print reduce(operator.add,[l.startswith('[Event') for l in file('test.pgn','r')])

I'd just write something like

  print len( [ l for l in file( 'test.pgn') if l.startswith( '[Event' ) ] )

which actually looks clear enough to me that I might write it that way
if I were writing this program.

If anonymous functions weren't so ugly I might use

  print len( filter( lambda l: l.startswith( '[Event' ), file( 'test.pgn' ) ) )

instead, since I find the [ l for l ] idiom for filter kind of unappealing.

Dan

-- 
http://www.dfan.org


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Mon Aug 23 10:25:06 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:25:06 GMT
Subject: PEP318
References: <0I2D001ZDU03UQ@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<mailman.1609.1092397396.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1bvji0tt0inevmnfabefbbvjtunpsfub37@4ax.com>

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:30:57 +0200, Ronald Oussoren
<ronaldoussoren at mac.com> wrote:

>
>On 13-aug-04, at 13:17, Arthur wrote:
>
>>
>>> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:03:19 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> 
>>> wrote:
>>>>> def foo ():
>>>>>   whatever
>>>>> foo = decorator (foo)
>>>>>
>>>>> is that you have to type the word "foo" three times.
>>>>
>>>> Big f**king deal - all things considered. ;)
>>>
>>> When this name is a PyObjC name that might be 70 characters long,
>>> it becomes a big deal.
>>
>> I had asked this before:
>>
>> Does
>>
>> def __f(something):
>>     dosomething
>>
>> the_name_I_really_want_to_call=transform(__f)
>>
>> work?
>>
>> It is not a destructive transform of __f, but why is that important?
>
>This requires additional input if you want to have the correct __name__ 
>attribute for the function. In your example 'transform' cannot no that 
>the result will be bound to 'the_name_I_really_want_to_call'.   In 
>PyObjC I use the __name__ to deduce information about the function 
>(such as the Objective-C name for the function).
>
>Another problem is that you only know the "real" name for the function 
>some time after the function definition.

if __name__ were writeable, aren't both problems solved?

def __f():
    __name__ = "the_name_I'm_stuck with"    # we know the name 

the_name_I'm_stuck with=transfrom(__f)

We are down to  one extra cut and paste of "the_name_I'm_stuck with" 


Art
>
>>
>> What else am I missing?
>>
>> I thought I read the PyObjC folks saying that they saw use cases for a
>> decorator syntax for their project - to be sure - but that was
>> (mis)interpreted as meaning that they saw it as important for their 
>> project,
>> which they don't.
>>
>> I could be wrong in my interpretation here.
>
>Decorators would make live a lot easier for us, but not having 
>decorators won't kill PyObjC.
>
>I would like to have decorators, but not at every cost. The 
>@decorator-before-def proposal looks sane.
>
>Ronald



From npat at efault.net  Sat Aug 14 18:32:57 2004
From: npat at efault.net (Nick Patavalis)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 22:32:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
References: <mailman.1661.1092519005.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrncht4oo.bjt.npat@gray.efault.net>

On 2004-08-14, Michael Sparks <zathras at thwackety.com> wrote:
> On 14 Aug 2004, Timothy Fitz wrote:
>
>> It seems to me that in python, generators are not truly coroutines.
>
> Assuming you mean there isn't available a default scheduler for them, or
> there isn't pre-emption built-in I agree. If you mean something else, I'm
> curious as to what you think is missing. (I've also been using generators
> as co-routines for sometime for various reasons)
>

I may be mistaken, as it has been some time since I've last dealt with
coroutines, but aren't you supposed to be able to do this with real
coroutines?

   def baz():
      ...
      for i in range(10):
          yield i
      ...

   def bar():
      ...
      baz()
      ...

   def foo():
      ...
      bar()
      ...

   c = coroutine(foo)
   c.run()

And when baz() yields, you're thrown back to the point where c.run()
was called. How is this possible with generators?

/npat


From ziller at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 23:19:39 2004
From: ziller at gmail.com (ziller)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 20:19:39 -0700
Subject: % format strings
References: <144d0df.0408231455.6b664466@posting.google.com>
	<412A76A7.4C87D17C@alcyone.com>
Message-ID: <537ea4cd.0408231919.4ada3ca1@posting.google.com>

Erik Max Francis <max at alcyone.com> wrote in message news:<412A76A7.4C87D17C at alcyone.com>...
> grv575 wrote:
> 
> > Is
> > there a way to specify the precision length for floating points in C
> > format strings?
> 
> Yes, it looks the same as in Python.  Python got the notation from C.

I meant to say how does it translate the *.  Python lets you use a
variable to specify the length of precision.

int f_length = 5;
float fl = 3.5
printf("%.*f", f_length, fl);

doesn't compile.


From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Sun Aug 22 21:44:17 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:44:17 -0400
Subject: Logical lines of code counter
Message-ID: <2ot090Fe5442U1@uni-berlin.de>

I got bored with working on larger projects and wrote a little 
script/module for counting logical (not physical) lines of Python code 
in a file or directory. It uses ASTs generated by compiler.parse instead 
of text manipulation functions, so it isn't incredibly fast, but the 
speed is good enough to be usable for me.

If you want to take a look, the file is at 
<http://ecritters.biz/linecount.py>. I don't really care about how 
people license their modifications (and the GPL is longer than the 
script itself), so it's licensed under the MIT License.

I'm sure there are a few bugs (AST nodes I forgot to count?), and I'd 
appreciate being emailed if anyone finds one.


From peter.maas at mplusr.de  Tue Aug 17 03:05:44 2004
From: peter.maas at mplusr.de (Peter Maas)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:05:44 +0200
Subject: python packages cross references
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1774.1092719070.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1774.1092719070.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cfsal3$n00$1@swifty.westend.com>

Roman Yakovenko schrieb:
> Hi. I need help( or solution :-) ). 
> Problem: my project has 3 packages
> prj
>  +------A
>  +------B
>  +------Utils
> 
> The question is: what is the right way to use functionality from
 > Utils in A and B packages ?

Look at Python Tutorial Packages (6.4). You can make a prj package
and use intra-package references (6.4.2) for A, B and Utils.

Mit freundlichen Gruessen,

Peter Maas

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Maas,  M+R Infosysteme,  D-52070 Aachen,  Tel +49-241-93878-0
E-mail 'cGV0ZXIubWFhc0BtcGx1c3IuZGU=\n'.decode('base64')
-------------------------------------------------------------------


From python.noob at gmx.de  Fri Aug  6 06:30:19 2004
From: python.noob at gmx.de (Steffen Schoen)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 12:30:19 +0200
Subject: Dynamic Class Creation
Message-ID: <opsca3gte0ef01t8@idefix.coneto.home>

(maybe it works better with Subject ;))

Hi there,
my problem: i have a directory, where several python modules (classes) are  
stored.
The names of these modules arent known before runtime. Now i want to parse  
the Directory and create an instance of each class. I tried to handle this  
with
new.instance() and new.clasobj() but this didnt really work for me. Any  
Ideas ?


From shalabh at cafepy.com  Wed Aug 11 18:15:28 2004
From: shalabh at cafepy.com (Shalabh Chaturvedi)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:15:28 -0700
Subject: remaining decorator syntax options
In-Reply-To: <d11dcfba.0408110717.3668e9c3@posting.google.com>
References: <d11dcfba.0408101133.4943f06b@posting.google.com>	<mailman.1472.1092171803.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<d11dcfba.0408110717.3668e9c3@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfe5nh$kqe$1@sea.gmane.org>

Steven Bethard wrote:
> Shalabh Chaturvedi <shalabh at cafepy.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1472.1092171803.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> 
>>Btw, I think your summary of the current state is good. However I feel a 
>>new keyword has been pretty much ruled out as well.
> 
> 
> Can you refer me to some pages that made you feel this way?  GvR said
> that he "won't rule it out just because of the new keyword":
> 
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047001.html
> 
> I also haven't seen any arguments against keywords that said anything
> but basically "introducing a new keyword might break existing code". 
> Not that this isn't a valid argument, but as Python has gone through a
> similar process recently for 'yield', I'd feel more like keywords were
> ruled out if I heard some other arguments.
> 
> Steve

You're right - it hasn't been entirely ruled out. I just got the feeling 
reading python-dev that new keywords are shunned unless very convincing 
reasons are found. Guido's words, from the post you mention: "this is a 
softening of my position on new keywords". So I doubt a keyword will be 
picked for decorators, but let's see.

Shalabh



From http  Fri Aug 13 17:39:56 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 14:39:56 -0700
Subject: How to sort records in file
References: <81a41dd.0408131122.21180d0d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <7xllgipvir.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

export at hope.cz (Lad) writes:
> What is the best( easiest)way how to sort a file?
> I have a file where each record consists of 3 fields( 3 words) and I
> would like to sort records by the first field( word)in each record.

If you're using Linux, the simplest way is with the "sort" command:

  sort infile -o outfile

This will sort files of basically unlimited size, as long as you have
enough disk space.  The files don't have to fit in memory.

Since you're posting on c.l.py, maybe you're really asking how to read
the file in sorted order in a Python program:

   import os
   sorted = os.popen("sort infile")

runs the sort command in an external process.

Finally, there's a built-in sorting operation on lists: 

   def compare(a, b):
      def key(line):
         return line.split()[0]
      return cmp(key(a), key(b))
   lines = open("infile").readlines()
   lines.sort(compare)

but that requires reading the whole file into memory, etc.


From bokr at oz.net  Sun Aug 15 14:51:25 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 15 Aug 2004 18:51:25 GMT
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
References: <20040814153534.8AC171E4007@bag.python.org>	<D65D4928-EEBF-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>	<mailman.1687.1092584144.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<frydnbvSiJeXF4LcRVn-oA@giganews.com>
	<mailman.1688.1092591829.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cfobbd$vlb$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:43:30 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:

>Istvan Albert wrote:
>
>> Paul Morrow wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> That reminds me of how I once thought about using indentation as a 
>>> means of denoting code blocks.  How idiotic I thought that was.  Now I 
>>> realize the elegance, beauty, 'genius' in that.
>> 
>> 
>> I disagree. In C (Perl, Java etc) we would do three things,
>> write braces, indent and put the semi-colon. In python we replaced
>> these three, with a single (the most obvious) one the indentation.
>> 
>
>And that's the genius there.  Guido (I believe he's the one that came up 
>with it) realized that those other symbols were unnecessary.  The 
>identation was enough to convey the author's intention.  Now of course 
>this wouldn't have been a very good idea if we (developers as a whole) 
>used wildly different indentation styles.  But we didn't/don't.  There's 
>a conventional way of showing program structure thru indentation that 
>the majority of us have always used (subordinate code gets indented).
>
>As Python developers, we have a convention on how we name the first 
>formal parameter of instance methods too.  If you write a method that 
>follows that convention (uses 'self' as the name of its first parm), 
>then you don't need to do anything further to inform your readers that 
>it's an instance method.
>
>
>>> Why don't we all just acknowledge that we are doing this?  Why don't 
>>> we all just admit that a well written instance method uses 'self' as 
>>> its first argument.  And well written static or class methods (as well as 
>> 
>> 
>> If so then, the logically equivalent solution would be to pass self
>> as an implicit parameter, say a named parameter self with a default
>> reference to itself. I'm not suggesting this behavior, I only point out
>> what I think follows from the first example. The end goal is to
>> simplify the behavior not overload it and thus add
>> further meaning to it.
>> 
>
>No, if self was passed implicitly, then you'ld be back in the situation 
>of having to specify (with additional syntax) which methods are instance 
>methods.  Less is more.  Python proves that.
>
>> I do agree with Chas Emerick in that encoding special behavior in
>> variable names is a fragile solution.
>> 
>
>Define fragile.  If you mean, easy to break, I don't see it.  There 
>would be only one way to define an instance method: name its first 
>parameter 'self'.  There would be only one way to define a class method: 
>name its first parameter 'klass' or 'cls' (or some other synoynm that we 
>can all vote on).  All other methods would be static methods.
>
>How is that fragile?
>
In a narrow context such as distinguishing between methods, classmethods,
and staticmethods, ISTM not so fragile. OTOH, generalize the concept too much
and you get 'hungarian' naming rules as a way of controlling processing.
Perhaps that is what Chas and Istvan were worrying about.

I think I pretty much agree with you (Paul), except that I think the test for
'self' (and analogously 'cls') should be a name.startswith(...) test.
There are a few nested-scope cases where it is necessary to distinguish
two simultaneous and distinct 'self'-parameter bindings, and you need distinct
names to avoid shadowing the outer with the inner. No time to look for the example
I'm thinking of, but I'm sure you can create one (if Peter Otten doesn't beat you to it ;-)

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From bac at OCF.Berkeley.EDU  Mon Aug  9 18:01:29 2004
From: bac at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Brett C.)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 15:01:29 -0700
Subject: Popular Python projects with lots of pure Python code
Message-ID: <4117F439.40805@ocf.berkeley.edu>

For my thesis (once the bloody thing stops throwing bugs at me) I am 
going to need to collect stats on the frequency that atomic types in 
local variables are applied to various opcodes and methods.  That means 
that I need something to collect stats off of.

So I am trying to come up with a list of projects I can use to get my 
stats from.  the stdlib is a no-brainer.  Also plan to use Docutils. 
But beyond those most of the big Python projects I can think of have a 
ton of C code which is of no use to me.  I don't need to be able to run 
it, just going to be compiling to .py files.

Any suggestions?

-Brett


From http  Mon Aug 23 03:57:56 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 00:57:56 -0700
Subject: Has anyone implemented BASIC in Python?
References: <2oo13eFcj548U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<o6eii0h19pljd16shbfld7jdj7l2m7tc9m@4ax.com>
	<2ot30hFeek8nU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<9h0ji0lvc0be65nuvcugaa3vsq5mcl3ck8@4ax.com>
	<2otkvkFe7p8oU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <7xeklyjngb.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Leif K-Brooks <eurleif at ecritters.biz> writes:
> Is there a (virtual) book you would recommend reading to learn about
> writing them? A course isn't really possibly for me, so I'm hoping
> that isn't the only option.

Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, by Abelson and
Sussman.  Not the easiest book in the world, but by the time you
finish it, you'll really understand some things.  

Full text available from:

http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/


From fumanchu at amor.org  Fri Aug 20 23:25:10 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:25:10 -0700
Subject: J2 decorator grammar
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E1A@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Michael Sparks wrote:

> decorator: dotted_name [ '(' [arglist] ')' ]
> funcdef: ['decorate' ':' NEWLINE INDENT decorators DEDENT ] 'def' NAME
parameters ':' suite

Would you consider this instead?

decorator_suite: expression_stmt | NEWLINE INDENT expression_stmt+
DEDENT
funcdef: ['decorate' ':' decorator_suite] 'def' NAME parameters ':'
suite

Also, where's the most recent copy of your implementation?


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org



From max at alcyone.com  Thu Aug  5 17:33:43 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 14:33:43 -0700
Subject: Quixote vs. Preppy
References: <1779534897.20040805105519@MailBlocks.com>
	<mailman.1209.1091724920.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4112A7B7.E30B8764@alcyone.com>

Bruce Eckel wrote:

> I'm looking for something "closer to Python" to develop certain types
> of web systems (rather than going away, forgetting, then coming back
> and struggling with the Z-shaped learning curve for anything more than
> trivial things in Zope). Based on the Quixote presentation at Pycon,
> that looks quite interesting ("web development as if you were a Python
> programmer"), but someone also suggested Preppy from Reportlabs:
> http://www.reportlab.org/preppy.html
> 
> Can anyone compare/contrast these? Thanks.

If all you want is a templating system (Preppy is more of a templating
system, not a Web framework), there's also EmPy:

	http://www.alcyone.com/software/empy/

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ No need to tell me lies / Am I losing you
    -- Chante Moore


From dalcolmo at vh-s.de  Thu Aug 12 03:00:56 2004
From: dalcolmo at vh-s.de (Josef Dalcolmo)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:00:56 +0200
Subject: PEP318
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20040812090056.00001e31@titan>

Hello,

I just would like to add my vote against using '@' in the Python language.

I use Leo (the intelligent folding editor written in Python), which makes heavy use of @ and using the same character in Python might create some incompatibilities.

I don't think @ looks good in ANY context and I don't want Python to start looking as ugly as some other languages. (Though I like how in Oberon - which is ugly otherwise because of its use of uppercase keywords - a variable is declared public by marking it with a '*', like in var*).

On many non-English keyboards it isn't exactly simple to type an '@', but since decorators aren't going to be used everywhere, I guess this is a weak point.

- Josef


From nothanks at nothere.com  Wed Aug 25 21:37:27 2004
From: nothanks at nothere.com (Emiliano Molina)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 01:37:27 GMT
Subject: Subclassing built-in types
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2390.1093473576.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2390.1093473576.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <r9bXc.7476$D7.5505@news-server.bigpond.net.au>

Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy) wrote:
> I see a useful reply from Fredrik right there ...
> 
> Tim Delaney

Sorry, I don't see any replies to my original post at all. Maybe a 
server problem.


From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Sat Aug 28 11:13:56 2004
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 08:13:56 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <cgmkoo$t5r$07$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgmkoo$t5r$07$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <4130a2b2$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

Peter Otten wrote:
> For J2
> 
> Peter Otten
> 
> Though I don't like "using".
> 
I think it would be great fun to add this to the document index under
"J2" as well as the keyword finally decied upon (which begins to look
like "using".  We all know in great detail what a "J2" is, but in five
years it will be great folklore.

-Scott David Daniels
Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org


From dieter at handshake.de  Sun Aug 22 13:22:22 2004
From: dieter at handshake.de (Dieter Maurer)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 19:22:22 +0200
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<7x4qmv6cwo.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <x7isbbhyup.fsf@handshake.de>

Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> writes on 21 Aug 2004 20:59:35 -0700:
> ...
> Well, whenever I want to write a mainstream application and think of
> using Python, my first reaction is that Python is too slow...

Maybe, you should drain your reactions :-)

  About 18 months ago, I proposed to implement an SGML/XML
  based content management system in Zope/Python
  because the company went bankrupt that
  had offered a similar C++ based system we were relying upon.

  Many of my colleagues objected because they thought Python
  were too slow.

  The Zope/Python CMS is now almost ready -- it is much faster
  than its C++ counterpart. Not because Python is faster than C++
  but because a Python application is far easier to tailor
  and to tweak for efficiency than a C++ one (and because
  we avoided known design flaws in the C++ system).

Dieter


From asif at go-away-spammer.com  Tue Aug 24 16:58:25 2004
From: asif at go-away-spammer.com (Player)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 21:58:25 +0100
Subject: Begginers questions on different distributions of py
Message-ID: <cgga5m$v1n$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hello all

 Decided to try and teach myself Python again for my 1st language, after
having a look at perl again and a few others and finally deciding that if I
was ever going to fully teach myself a language it would be Python that
would be the one I could adapt to the quickest and easiest.  = Basically
meaning the syntax seems to really settle well in my brain, more so than any
of the other languages :)

Anyway first things first, I bought The Python Cookbook for a RW reference
and something python related to read in the rw and bounce ideas from.

Then I cam to wanting a download of the language, and I had the choice of
two distros, Activestates ActivePython and the Python websites original
Python distribution.

My question is this really, what is the python websites original Python
distribution missing that ActiveStates has.
And also vice versa - seen as how the Activestates distribution is lagging
behind the python websites distribution by a release or two.
ActivePython = ActivePython-2.3.2-232-win32-ix86.msi size = 16,687KB
Python webiste distribution = Python-2.3.4.exe size = 9,658 KB

So what's missing out of the Python distro that is in Activestates distro?
And vice versa the other way?
:)

Thanks in advance
M.B



- -- 
*************
The Imagination may be compared to Adam's dream-
he awoke and found it truth.
John Keats.
*************
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP 8.0

iQA/AwUBQSur7y/z2sM4qf2WEQIPXQCfbvwCNHslPX9wweIInkCawSrhXSUAoM/m
Jym2NIJ/g2Y31xLHLYNUqbm2
=lBN6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From secchi at sssup.it  Fri Aug 13 06:52:53 2004
From: secchi at sssup.it (Angelo Secchi)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 12:52:53 +0200
Subject: Blocking the execution of a script
Message-ID: <20040813125253.46fcfd86.secchi@sssup.it>


Hi,
I would like Python to interrupt the execution of a script in case an if
condition turns out to be TRUE. What is the proper way to do that?

Thanks,
a. 

--
========================================================
 Angelo Secchi                     PGP Key ID:EA280337
========================================================
  Current Position:
  Graduate Fellow Scuola Superiore S.Anna
  Piazza Martiri della Liberta' 33, Pisa, 56127 Italy
  ph.: +39 050 883365
  email: secchi at sssup.it	www.sssup.it/~secchi/
========================================================
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From nhodgson at bigpond.net.au  Thu Aug 12 23:53:05 2004
From: nhodgson at bigpond.net.au (Neil Hodgson)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 03:53:05 GMT
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>	<mailman.1566.1092328555.5135.python-list@python.org>	<EvadnaOm3bItNIbcRVn-iQ@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1573.1092340533.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<X5qdnYRQdNY_s4HcRVn-rA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <BWWSc.54593$K53.10695@news-server.bigpond.net.au>

Peter Hansen:
> paolo veronelli wrote:
>
> > This 'old' method doesn't allow to prepone it,I think a statement was
> > the way to allow this ,but why impone it?
>
> Sorry, that's not English, and I'm afraid I can't infer what
> you mean by "prepone" and "impone"...

   I thought it was an inversion of "postpone" by someone that thought
English was more regular than it is. Trying to differentiate the three
decorator positions relative to "def": before, in, and after.

   Neil




From tim.peters at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 15:19:01 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:19:01 -0400
Subject: My only complaint about Python
In-Reply-To: <cg4spl$ht3$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<mailman.1996.1092967167.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cg4spl$ht3$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <1f7befae04082012197a6e4c08@mail.gmail.com>

[Darren Dale]
...
>>> Will the BDFL ever split with Visual Studio?

[Tim Peters]
>> We should be clear here that this isn't Guido's decision.  What you
>> get on Windows is what you get on all other platforms in this respect:
>>  you get what volunteers show up to produce, year after year after
>> year.  So you get a fine Cygwin port from Jason Tishler, seemingly
>> toiling all alone, and you get contributions from at least four
>> developers who do use Visual Studio.

[Darren]
> I meant no disrespect to the developers.

Didn't think you did.  I'm just saying (a) the BDFL is irrelevant to
this particular issue; and, (b) you get what other people give.  If
nobody with a long-term commitment to a specific Visual Studio
alternative appears, then #b rules.

> ...
> This comes back to the heart of the matter. How do you get volunteers
> who dont have access to VS to get involved with Python development?

Very few Python contributors have access to VS, but it doesn't matter
since most aren't running on Windows either.  Even on Windows, VS is
usually irrelevant to whether somene can pitch in on reviewing bugs
and patches, improving the standard libraries, improving the docs,
helping on the newsgroup and mailing lists, keeping python.org
healthy, etc.  I think it's more of a cultural thing, that Windows
users typically have a lower contribution rate than users on other
platforms (whether it's C code or anything else).

I mentioned Cygwin before, and you can certainly develop C extension
modules, for Python, on Windows, using that.  Other responders have
their own favored VS alternatives.  "A problem" is that there's more
than one VS alternative!  That fragments the relatively-small-anyway
community of people who need a VS alternative on Windows.

> I think the suggestions here were right on, give Python the ability to
> support MinGW out of the box.

That's a wish.  If it's to be granted, someone has to volunteer to do
the work initially, and keep it working as the years go by.  Don't
expect that one of the current contributors will do so (they're
swamped already).  IOW, it's not a matter of convincing someone it's a
good idea, it's a matter of someone volunteering to do actual, real
work.

> I thought that a compiler could even be included in a version of the Windows
> distribution, but maybe that is taking it too far.

That one won't happen -- most Windows Python users don't even know C,
and download size is still an issue for many.  Even people who want to
work on core Python development on Windows using VS need to work from
a source tarball instead, or from a CVS checkout.


From lars at gustaebel.de  Wed Aug 18 05:01:48 2004
From: lars at gustaebel.de (Lars Gustaebel)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:01:48 +0200
Subject: can tarfile maintain directory structure?
References: <a6fdfd6b.0408171508.65d670d0@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1838.1092794836.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.18.09.01.48.36081@gustaebel.de>

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:06:45 -0500, Jeff Epler wrote:

> You can use os.walk (or os.path.walk for older versions of Python) to
> recurse a directory tree.  Here's a simple script to use tarfile and
> os.walk:
> [snip]

Far too complicated... tarfile.py is rather high-level:

import tarfile

tar = tarfile.open(filename, "w:gz")
tar.add(directory)
tar.close()

The add() method is recursive by default. More information and examples
here: http://docs.python.org/lib/module-tarfile.html

-- 
Lars Gust?bel
lars at gustaebel.de



From info at sgtinfo.com  Tue Aug 24 10:23:18 2004
From: info at sgtinfo.com (Gina Clemmer (SGT, Inc.))
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 07:23:18 -0700
Subject: Oklahoma City Demographic Analysis Workshops (September 9th and
	10th, 2004)
Message-ID: <20040824052555.EDD3C1E4006@bag.python.org>

Oklahoma City Demographic Analysis Workshop Announcement- One Day Workshop

When:   September 9th and 10th, 2004 - 9:00 am to 4:00 pm  (One Day
Workshop)
Where:  New Horizons Computer Training Center, 50 Penn Place, 1900 NW
Expressway, Suite R305 Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 73118
Fee:     $225 w/credit card at time of registration, $249 for check or
purchase order Register Now

Register online at www.sgtinfo.com or call us at 877.241.6576.
The Oklahoma City Demographic Analysis Workshop will teach you to extract,
query, download, analyze, and map Census demographic data for OKC and
surrounding communities. (Note: Participants may substitute their own
community in exercises-all techniques are directly transferable to other
communities). Such data can provide grant writers, social researchers and
community planners with powerful tools for analyzing community changes.
This is a streamlined, ?hands on? workshop where each participant works on
their own computer throughout the day. 

This workshop also provides an introduction to Geographic Information
Systems (GIS) which includes a discussion of GIS trends and common uses,
where to easily obtain mapping files, a demonstration of the map browser
ArcExplorer (included with your materials), hands on practice making basic
maps online and suggestions for making effective maps. See a detailed
description 
Materials include: A comprehensive workbook that includes the workshop
presentation, exercises, reference materials and a valuable Demographic
Data Resource CD. This CD includes useful GIS tools such as ArcExplorer and
several shapefiles for all communities in the United States. Materials also
include a 60 day trial version of ArcView 8.3, a leading GIS software. Also
included is the 2003 US Statistical Abstract which includes an extensive
selection of statistics for the United States, with selected data for
states, metropolitan areas and cities. 
This workshop will:
Teach you to extract, query, download, analyze, map and present 2000-1990
Census of Population and Housing and 2003 American    Community Survey data
that includes Poverty, Race/Ethnicity, Age, Housing, Language and
Transportation;


Teach you to construct a Local Community Change Profile. The Profile is
comprised of key demographic variables and customized for OKC and a Census
tract within OKC (participants may also substitute their own community);


Teach you analytical, demographic and spatial analysis techniques including
commonly used mathematical formulas to transform raw data into compelling
information;


Teach you about Census geography including common problems such as working
with non-Census boundaries, analyzing change over time despite boundary
changes and how to use new mapping functionality recently built in to
American Factfinder; 


Provide you with exceptional materials that you can use immediately to
assist with social research and analysis.



Former Workshop Participants' Comments: 
View Other Participants' Comments 
Oklahoma University, Research and Evaluation Center (2003)
"Very helpful update on the new technology available from the census bureau
and the thematic maps are extremely important and very much under utilized."
Oklahoma University, Institute For Public Affairs (2003)
"Thanks very much. I wasn't sure this would be beneficial but it exceeded
my expectations in every way. This was an excellent use of my time!"
City of Edmond, Oklahoma (2003)
"Very informative. Every city planner and grant writer should attend this
class." 

Oklahoma Department of Human Services (2003)
"Beneficial, Enjoyable and learned new demographic census processes and the
materials were very helpful."
SmartGirl Technologies is a social research company located in Portland,
Oregon.  For more information about the workshop, who we are and what we
do, check out our website at www.sgtinfo.com.




If do not want to receive further announcements, click here and simply send
us a blank email. We will immediately take you off of the announcement
list. You may also reply to this email with the word "delete" in the
subject line.  Note: Under no circumstance will we share your email with
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From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 10:53:51 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 00:53:51 +1000
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:40:18 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
> >IMO, to change it inside of a function def should be (but isn't) as easy
> >as...
> >
> >   >>> def foo():
> >   ...     """ I am foo """
> >   ...     __doc__ = __doc__ + 'indeed'
> >
> >Paul
> 
> Yes.  Not only do I follow, but I think we came to exactly the same
> place, from very different directions, and coming from what I sense is
> very different backgrounds.
> 
> Its just that I don't think many others seem to find that as
> interesting as I happen to.

Not so much that, as running out of ways to restate myself. The
proposed syntax above still requires magic handling of double-under
variables in a function, and a new namespace. I can't see how you can
think that this is a _good_ thing.


From enrique.palomo at xgs-spain.com  Wed Aug 18 03:48:32 2004
From: enrique.palomo at xgs-spain.com (enrique)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:48:32 +0200
Subject: need help before...
Message-ID: <CAEFJJMMCEAMDDJJPPPCIEPJCAAA.enrique.palomo@xgs-spain.com>

Hello all,
before i begin to code an application i would like to hear from the python
masters.

The application must be a dispatcher with a windows-like interface.
Mainly:
A file is received in a folder (a)
That file is moved to another folder (b)
The files in b folder must be modified by a script
Once modified, moved to a different folder (c)
All the files in c folder must be sent via ftp to another machine.

All, must be automatic.

For the interface i thought using wxpython&boa, where an user can see the
files and their states.

Im a newbie, but i think i must use processes or threads...am i wrong??

Any help will be welcomed.

Thanks



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From shalabh at cafepy.com  Wed Aug 25 17:25:19 2004
From: shalabh at cafepy.com (Shalabh Chaturvedi)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:25:19 -0700
Subject: Enumerate object is destroyed by casting?
In-Reply-To: <f8097096.0408251207.1e8f633e@posting.google.com>
References: <f8097096.0408251207.1e8f633e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgj015$4rf$1@sea.gmane.org>

Nick Jacobson wrote:
> Casting an 'enumerate' object destroys it??  Is that supposed to
> happen, or is it a bug?
> 
> 
> For example:
> a = ['a', 'b', 'c']
> e = enumerate(a)
> print dict(e)
> print dict(e)
> 
> 
> Result:
> {0: 'a', 1: 'b', 2: 'c'}
> {}

This is not casting (there is no casting in Python). It is creating a 
new dict from an iterable. enumerate(a) creates an iterable that runs 
over the items *once*. After that there is nothing left to return.

HTH,

Shalabh



From iketo2 at netscape.net  Sat Aug 28 12:12:51 2004
From: iketo2 at netscape.net (Isaac To)
Date: 29 Aug 2004 00:12:51 +0800
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<tyf3c28ps1t.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
	<1ry8k0d2az.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87acwgvy51.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<2pb36dFibuj3U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<41309d32$0$65611$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<1gj8pg5.1e6z0kiprvfxuN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <87acwfutq4.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>

>>>>> "Alex" == Alex Martelli <aleaxit at yahoo.com> writes:

    Alex> list(a, b, c) instead of [a, b, c] would not be horribly
    Alex> heavy syntax, I think.

On the other hand, [b*b for b in c] is too sweet to lose as well. :)

Regards,
Isaac.


From brian at sweetapp.com  Mon Aug 16 05:47:10 2004
From: brian at sweetapp.com (Brian Quinlan)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:47:10 +0200
Subject: C++ app calling python script repeatedly
In-Reply-To: <41207a1c$0$29872$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-05.noos.net>
References: <41207a1c$0$29872$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-05.noos.net>
Message-ID: <4120829E.70803@sweetapp.com>

nik wrote:

> How could I solve this? Can the user run a python program alongside my 
> C++ app, and the app call a method on the users program? I.e. can the 
> script I call be part of a global process in some way? Or, are there 
> other ways to go about this?
> 
> nik

You might want to think about how you would do this if the entire 
application were written in Python. It sounds like "theScript.py" is a 
module that provides some sort of service to the rest of your 
application. So you would probably be best to import it once and then 
call a function in that module every time that you need to.

Cheers,
Brian


From claird at lairds.us  Tue Aug 31 15:08:04 2004
From: claird at lairds.us (Cameron Laird)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:08:04 GMT
Subject: Size of a remote URL
References: <cgvn5u$p0b@odah37.prod.google.com>
	<41336331$0$65608$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <6fse02-qu6.ln1@lairds.us>

In article <41336331$0$65608$a1866201 at newsreader.visi.com>,
Grant Edwards  <grante at visi.com> wrote:
>On 2004-08-30, Justin <justin__devine at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I want to track the download of files in a progress bar.  I asume I
>> need the final size to do that so I can compare it to the current size
>> on disk.
>
>Correct.
>
>> Le tme know if you know anything
>
>I know lots of things. :)  
>
>But, if the server doesn't tell you the content length in the
>HTTP headers, there's nothing you can do.
			.
			.
			.
I'll reinforce Grant's message:  there are quite a few Web addresses
whose server begins delivery of content before it, the server, has
yet calculated the whole "page", much less its size.  Your require-
ment, as stated, is simply not possible in full generality.


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Fri Aug 27 19:53:25 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 23:53:25 GMT
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2536.1093624564.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <pohvi0528sbbkiia55m4monhmq7gltn52h@4ax.com>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:30:32 -0700, "Robert Brewer"
<fumanchu at amor.org> wrote:

>Anthony Baxter wrote:
>> Note that Robert has sent the completed proposal to python-dev,
>> and in fine Python tradition, buggered off for the weekend.
>> So I'm not entirely sure it's worthwhile posting more
>> for/against messages now.
>
>I'll continue to collect them, and post updates on Monday. So feel free.
>

Against.

With some commitment.

I have not read the J2 psper, but think it might in essence be covered
as a potential (good faith) counter-argument to it:

That a certain sense of Python aesthetics asks for this functionality
to be stripped of any aesthetic pretense. 

A little aside to the compiler

Whereas 'using: staticmethod' might say something, 'using:
MyTransform' says only that, and Python should not provide cover to
this kind of non-expressiveness.

We are looking to save some typing. Let's save typing.

@

With that I consider that Python has maintained a sense of
forthrightness, that will probably not allow me to escape my
begrudging infatuation with it.

With J2 ... well my adjustment period will be extended a bit..

Art
 






From http  Wed Aug 18 15:35:39 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 12:35:39 -0700
Subject: Embedding Python in Python
References: <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
	<7xu0v0l2be.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<cg09ne$ma7$1@fred.mathworks.com>
Message-ID: <7x3c2kkzn8.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

JCM <joshway at myway.com> writes:
> If you're concerned about security, another possibility is to parse
> the user's code and look for anything potentially dangerous.  You'll
> need to be aggressive, but I believe it's possible.  For example,
> disallow exec statements, the identifier "eval", any identifier of
> __this__ form, import statements, etc.  This is overly restrictive,
> but it will provide security.

By the time you're done with all that, you may as well design a new
restricted language and interpret just that.

Hint: 
  e = vars()['__builtins__'].eval
  print e('2+2')

Even Java keeps getting new holes found, and Python is not anywhere
near Java when it comes to this kind of thing.


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Tue Aug  3 12:18:36 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:18:36 -0400
Subject: dislin interfaced with tkinter
In-Reply-To: <34c9b4fa.0408030743.594417f9@posting.google.com>
References: <34c9b4fa.0408030743.594417f9@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408031158230.6671-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On 3 Aug 2004, eesun wrote:

> I've downloaded the dislin package for the scientific plotting. And I
> have already created the application window with Tkinter (menu,
> canvas, status bar..). I want to integrate the Dislin plotting into
> the Tkinter application. For ex: show the dislin result on the Tkinter
> Canvas. Anyone can help?

I don't know anything about dislin; scanning through its web site, it 
looks like a commercial C program.  The only two ways I can think of to 
integrate something like this into a Tkinter (or any toolkit) application 
are:

1) If there's a way to pass dislin a window ID in which to draw (it 
doesn't look like it; its openwin() function uses internal IDs), you can 
create a Frame widget and pass the value returned by its .winfo_id() 
method to the library.

2) If you can find no better way, as a last resort you can have dislin 
write its output to an image file, and read the file using the Python 
Imaging Library (PIL), which is integrated very well into Tkinter (you can 
use its ImageTk class to create an image suitable for a Label, Canvas, or 
what-have-you).

If your application isn't dependant on dislin and doesn't need 3D 
graphing capabilities, consider switching to matplotlib 
(http://matplotlib.sf.net/), which provieds the embedability you want.



From b.niemann at betternet.de  Wed Aug 25 06:19:29 2004
From: b.niemann at betternet.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:19:29 +0200
Subject: urllib hangs
In-Reply-To: <2p35phFg2vehU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <a6fdfd6b.0408230902.2afc0e08@posting.google.com>
	<2p35phFg2vehU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <cghotg$v16$1@online.de>

Bernd Kaiser wrote:

> I also would use a few Threads, they will speed up your script.
He didn't mention any performance issues. Don't try to optimize for 
speed before you have a valid complaint about the program being to slow 
- especially if optimization involves threads!


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Tue Aug 24 22:49:06 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:49:06 -0700
Subject: Begginers questions on different distributions of py
References: <cgga5m$v1n$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1093402641.581593@news.commspeed.net>


Go with python.org and don't write just windows programs use a cross
platform GUI like wxPython.

Tom




From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 22 16:44:57 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 15:44:57 -0500
Subject: Python future performance and speed
In-Reply-To: <slrncigaq5.cj9.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<7x4qmv6cwo.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<slrncigaq5.cj9.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <wA7Wc.1348$MR2.6467@news1.mts.net>

Sam Holden wrote:
> After all python has been used as the scripting engine for a  number of
> commercial games - a domain that certainly cares about speed.
Not the graphics though and that is where the speed is really needed.


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 14:14:19 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:14:19 -0700
Subject: elements of decorator syntax suggestions
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed204080611025301f6ac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>
	<e69d3ed204080611025301f6ac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d11dcfba04080611141287a323@mail.gmail.com>

Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
> An excellent list! If you don't mind, I might steal this format for the PEP.
> It allows for a lot more alternatives to be covered off in a smaller space
> (since many proposals are minor variations on an existing proposal, and
> share the same problems).

Please feel free to -- glad it was helpful. =)  Thanks so much for all
your work already!

Steve

-- 
You can wordify anything if you just verb it.
        - Bucky Katt, Get Fuzzy


From drs at remove-to-send-mail-ecpsoftware.com  Wed Aug 25 17:16:38 2004
From: drs at remove-to-send-mail-ecpsoftware.com (drs)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:16:38 -0500
Subject: MSI Installer Problem: can't install 2.4a2 on new install of
	Win2kSP2
References: <vnipi0ldsgchqqiti1q19qtd5d70ju17p0@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <412d0156$1_1@newspeer2.tds.net>


"Richard Hanson" <me at privacy.net> wrote in message
news:vnipi0ldsgchqqiti1q19qtd5d70ju17p0 at 4ax.com...

> Am I overlooking something simple...?

How about SP3, or even 4?




From max at alcyone.com  Sun Aug 15 04:26:57 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 01:26:57 -0700
Subject: Is python ircbot.py slow?
References: <pan.2004.08.15.05.56.08.307478@yahoo.com.au>
Message-ID: <411F1E51.265A3C04@alcyone.com>

Dfenestr8 wrote:

> I haven't really looked into how they bench mark these things, but as
> far
> as I know, python has always been considered a reasonably fast
> scripting
> language. Even back when the standarad server was a p450 it was
> considered
> fast enough.
> 
> Now that most servers are 1.2Ghz +, surely speed isn't even an issue?

Even on an incredibly slow machine, it would be unimportant.  After all,
why would one thing an IRC bot needs speed?  An IRC bot is going to be
tremendously I/O bound, it's barely doing any CPU computations.  Your
friend doesn't know what he's talking about.

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ I will always remember / This moment
    -- Sade


From greg.lindstrom at novasyshealth.com  Wed Aug 18 08:23:50 2004
From: greg.lindstrom at novasyshealth.com (Greg Lindstrom)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 07:23:50 -0500
Subject: Access to Oracle
Message-ID: <039d01c4851e$38241b60$054b12ac@D18SYX41>

Greetings-

I am running Python 2.3.3 on HP-UX and would like to access an Oracle 9i
database. Looking through the vaults, I see 4 or 5 modules that might work
and was wondering if anyone is currently hitting Oracle and what are you
using.  I get to build a new system from the ground up and the powers that
be are allowing me to do it in Python.  I'm quite happy.

Thanks for your help,

--greg

Greg Lindstrom                                         (501) 975-4859
NovaSys Health                  greg.lindstrom at novasyshealth.com

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams"  W.W.

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This email and any attachments to it are privileged and confidential and are
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From tjreedy at udel.edu  Wed Aug  4 18:29:05 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 18:29:05 -0400
Subject: help: Unit test fixture returning the same object
References: <9895e897.0408031533.26720ba0@posting.google.com><nKGdnfWEjOtspo3cRVn-qg@powergate.ca><9895e897.0408040851.21ac7caa@posting.google.com>
	<ovednbdu0IcWh4zcRVn-vQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <cernvi$mnh$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Peter Hansen" <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message
news:ovednbdu0IcWh4zcRVn-vQ at powergate.ca...
> Michael McCracken wrote:
>
> > So, I'm still surprised that id() would point to the same object every
> > time, but I'm willing to believe it.
>
> Don't think of it using those words.  Think of it as "the new
> object is being created at the same address as the old object
> was at, so it's likely the first object created since the old
> one was destroyed", or something like that.   At least that way
> it's much easier to believe, much less of a coincidence, and
> actually something that a number of people have encountered
> over the years, though often with similar expressions of surprise
> or disbelief. :-)

Yes, yes.  When an object is destroyed, its id is free for reuse, whatever
the implementation.  For an unambiguous example:
>>> id([1]), id([2])
(9692456, 9692456)

Terry J. Reedy





From jack at performancedrivers.com  Thu Aug 19 19:21:31 2004
From: jack at performancedrivers.com (Jack Diederich)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:21:31 -0400
Subject: problem using C-bindings
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.19.22.14.03.407680@eq.homelinux.org>
References: <pan.2004.08.19.20.32.09.806717@eq.homelinux.org>
	<mailman.1985.1092951949.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<pan.2004.08.19.22.14.03.407680@eq.homelinux.org>
Message-ID: <20040819232131.GE23725@performancedrivers.com>

On Fri, Aug 20, 2004 at 12:14:05AM +0200, eq wrote:
> Am Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:45:45 -0400 schrieb Jack Diederich:
> 
> > On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 10:32:15PM +0200, eq wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >> 
> >> I'm trying to create a program(written in C) that does the following
> >> things using embedded Python:
> >> 1. Create a module(say, "MyModule")
> >> 2. Create a class in that module(say, "MyClass")
> >> 3. Create a function in that module(say, "MyFunction")
> > [snip]
> >> 	class_dict=PyDict_New();
> >> 	class_name=PyString_FromString("MyClass");
> >> 	class=PyClass_New(NULL,class_dict,class_name);
> >> 	PyDict_SetItemString(module_dict,"MyClass",class);
> > [snip]
> > 
> > Take a look at Modules/xxsubtype.c in the source distribution.
> > It is an example of how to subtype a builtin.  xxmodule.c shows
> > how to make a class from scratch.  Both are out of date but a good
> > sarting spot.
> > 
> Hm, perhaps I over-complicated my problem:
> I don't need a full python-class in pure C. I just need to create a
> (python!) function(a dynamic one, not a static C function) and attach it
> to an already existing python-class just by using C-calls.
> I try to do this by compiling the function's code with:
> 
> pyfunc_code=Py_CompileString(func_code,"",Py_file_input);
> 
> where func_code could be something like "print 'hello'" and then I try to
> make a function out of this by calling:
> 
> pyfunc=PyFunction_New(pyfunc_code,dict);
> 
> where dict is the global namespace for the function.
> What I now want is to attach this function to the already created class
> "MyClass".
> 

In that case I would see how xxmodule.c exports methods in the xx_methods
array and then in your python code have the class method call that exported
method.

import xxmodule
class MyClass(object):
  def xxfunc(self, arg):
    return xxmodule.xxfunc(self.someval, arg)

In practice I've never had a class that wasn't all python or all C but
I have written small helper functions in C that are called from python.

-Jack



From nhodgson at bigpond.net.au  Fri Aug  6 21:27:50 2004
From: nhodgson at bigpond.net.au (Neil Hodgson)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 01:27:50 GMT
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no> <4112AC7B.1060508@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806egka@bombur.uio.no> <411343D7.3020604@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806c08y@bombur.uio.no> <411353A3.8090502@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806beaz@bombur.uio.no> <4113759E.2070405@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806rjgh@bombur.uio.no> <4113E755.8060205@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806qxkg@bombur.uio.no> <41140349.6090202@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <qeWQc.37096$K53.5490@news-server.bigpond.net.au>

Martin v. L?wis:

> For some source encodings (namely the CJK ones), conversion to UTF-8
> is absolutely necessary even for proper lexical analysis, as the
> byte that represents a backslash in ASCII might be the first byte
> of a two-byte sequence.

   Do you have a link to such an encoding? I understand 0x5c, '\' is often
displayed as a yen sign, but haven't seen it as the start byte of a multi
byte character.

   Regarding the 's' string prefix in the proposal, adding more prefixes
damages ease of understanding particularly when used in combination. There
should be a very strong need before another is introduced: I'd really hate
to be trying to work out the meaning of:

r$tu"/Raw/ $interpolated, translated Unicode string"

   Neil




From zathras at thwackety.com  Sun Aug 22 07:35:18 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:35:18 +0100
Subject: [PATCH] RE: J2 decorator grammar
References: <mailman.2145.1093167850.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <412889c8$0$81159$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>

Michael Sparks wrote:

> On Sun, 22 Aug 2004, Anthony Baxter wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 01:41:58 +0100 (BST), Michael Sparks wrote
>> > The patch can be found here:
>> >    * http://thwackety.com/decorator_syntax_J2.patch
>>
>> Good to see. There's a few more bits than this that need to be
>> done, though - see http://www.python.org/sf/979728 for the original
>> @decorator patch, this should show you what else needs to be
>> changed.
> 
> Many thanks for the pointer. I'll try and make sure I cover all the bases,
> but I suspect I'll miss something, but I'll try not to :)

One useful thing this has shown up is "decorate" clashes with the test suite
for decorators since it contains:

def funcattrs(**kwds):
    def decorate(func):
        func.__dict__.update(kwds)
        return func
    return decorate

So some other keyword is definitely preferable. Currently I'm swayed heavily
by arguments in favour of "using" since it doesn't make sense to have:

using:
   staticmethod
   memoize
   funcattrs(author="Joe Blogs")

Standing alone - it's pretty clear it *needs* something following. Whereas
"declare" doesn't to a large extent.

For example, the following reads as ambiguious (to someone new)

class Foo:
   declare:
      author("Joe Bloggs")
   def bar(bla):
      pass

To someone new does this mean Joe Bloggs wrote the method or class? The
using version strikes me personally as clearer:

class Foo:
   using:
      author("Joe Bloggs")
   def bar(bla):
      pass

Also, I haven't seen a similar clash to decorate for "using" as yet.

Checking google, I can't find anything that defines a function
"using" (search terms: "def using" python ), but can find a variety
projects (including Pyrex) that define a function called declare (search
terms: "def declare" python).


Michael.



From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Wed Aug  4 09:33:19 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Wed,  4 Aug 2004 23:33:19 +1000
Subject: EOL - scanning single-quoted string
In-Reply-To: <4110E3B3.8040709@geochemsource.com>
References: <1091625659.4110e2bb6db73@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
	<4110E3B3.8040709@geochemsource.com>
Message-ID: <1091626399.4110e59f5dbc1@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

i got the escape character bit, but i still get an error
>>> str='/My Documents/um_ajay.xml'
>>> re.subn('/', '\\', str)
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
  File "c:\Python23\lib\sre.py", line 151, in subn
    return _compile(pattern, 0).subn(repl, string, count)
  File "c:\Python23\lib\sre.py", line 258, in _subx
    template = _compile_repl(template, pattern)
  File "c:\Python23\lib\sre.py", line 245, in _compile_repl
    raise error, v # invalid expression
sre_constants.error: bogus escape (end of line)

any ideas?

cheers

--
Ajay Brar,
CS Honours 2004
Smart Internet Technology Research Group


Quoting Gandalf <gandalf at geochemsource.com>:

>
>   Hi Ajay!
>
> The problem is that you must represent the backslash as '\\'. This is
> because a simple backslash opens an escape sequence.
> For example:
>
> '\n'  - this is new line
> '\t'   - this is TAB
> '\\'   - this is the backslash itself
>
> You should use this:
>
> re.subn('/', '\\', str)
>
> The other way is to use raw strings. You can read more about these
> things here:
>
> http://docs.python.org/ref/strings.html
>
> Best,
>
>   Laci 2.0
>
>
>
>
> Ajay wrote:
>
> >hi!
> >
> >I am developing an application for a pocket pc.
> >i have a small gui which allows users to select files using a file
> dialog
> >box. however the file, selected is represented as '/My Documents/test'
> >which when i try to open gives me an error.
> >so what i would like to do is replace '/' by the windows '\'
> >however when i try
> >str='/My Documents/test'
> >re.subn('/', '\', str)
> >
> >i get an error saying - SyntaxError: EOL while scanning single-quoted
> >string
> >
> >how can i replace the slashes.
> >
> >thanks
> >
> >cheers
> >
> >--
> >Ajay Brar,
> >CS Honours 2004
> >Smart Internet Technology Research Group
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
> >
> >
>
>


----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From casey at zope.com  Tue Aug 10 11:27:39 2004
From: casey at zope.com (Casey Duncan)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 11:27:39 -0400
Subject: how to dispatch objects depending on their class
References: <4118dd4a$1@maser.urz.unibas.ch>
Message-ID: <20040810112739.064a947f.casey@zope.com>

It should not be a problem to use the actual class object as keys in the
dict and the functions as values. No need to convert the class to
strings.

So why can't they be static methods of the classes exactly? That would
be simpler, however the dict will work efficiently.

-Casey

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:35:48 +0200
Curzio Basso <curzio.basso at unibas.ch> wrote:

> 
> Hi all.
> 
> I have a couple of question regarding the following situation:
> 
> class A(object):
>    def __init__(self):
>      pass
> 
> class B(object):
>    def __init__(self):
>      A.__init__(self)
> 
> def func(object):
>    if isinstance(object, A):
>      do_something_with_A(object)
>    elif isinstance(object, B):
>      do_something_with_B(object)
> 
> Note that in my real problem I cannot move the logic of func to the 
> class A and B because I will have a hierarchy also for func. Then I
> need a way to dispatch the object to the right function. I thought
> about using a dictionary, like:
> 
> FUNC = {"<class '__main__.A'>": do_something_with_A,
>          "<class '__main__.B'>": do_something_with_B}
> 
> def func(object):
>    FUNC[type(object)](object)
> 
> But: (1) I am not sure of what the type(object) function return. In
> this case A and B are in the __main__ namespace (assuming this is how
> is called), but if they are in a module; (2) I am not sure if it is 
> efficient; and finally (3): probably there is a better way to do it 
> (this is always a safe assumption).
> 
> I hope my problem is clear, and excuse me if I am asking about
> something that is common knowledge, but I don't even know what to
> google for...
> 
> thanks, curzio
> -- 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 



From Hate at Spam.com  Mon Aug 30 23:15:12 2004
From: Hate at Spam.com (A.M)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 03:15:12 GMT
Subject: Intelisence
Message-ID: <43SYc.121080$UTP.113615@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>

Hi,

Is there any inelisence IDE (like visual studio) for python?

Thanks,
Alan




From b.niemann at betternet.de  Wed Aug 18 08:18:43 2004
From: b.niemann at betternet.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:18:43 +0200
Subject: anonymous function?
In-Reply-To: <efHUc.217674$UI5.10803319@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
References: <efHUc.217674$UI5.10803319@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
Message-ID: <cfvh9c$7h4$1@online.de>

 > t = threading.Timer(10.0, sendCheckCommand() )
This will *execute* sendCheckCommand at this point (what you mean by 'it 
works 1 time'), implicitly return None, which is passed to the Timer 
constructor, which in turn raises the mentioned exception.
Omit the () to get a reference to the function.

 > I think this is an
 > anonymous (in Java it is) function and is really not meant to be a
 > "real" class function.
I would prefer:
    t = threading.Timer(10.0, lambda: self.connection.message("CHECK"))
or for compatibility with older python versions:
    t = threading.Timer(10.0, lambda s=self:
         s.connection.message("CHECK"))


From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Sun Aug  8 18:41:09 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 18:41:09 -0400
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar, but for what exactly?
In-Reply-To: <4116239e$1@news.012.net.il>
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
	<4115b53a$1@nntp0.pdx.net> <4116239e$1@news.012.net.il>
Message-ID: <4116ac05$1@nntp.zianet.com>

Avner Ben wrote:
 > So, if the problem is to rid class definitions of bizarre function
 > calls, stuck in the middle of nowhere, that actually add to the
 > structure of the class (and which other OO languages solve by
 > legitimate syntax), I am dissapointed to observe that functuion
 > decorators do not do a complete job after all.

While true, I find this less of a disappointment than you. There are two 
large differences between class/staticmethods and properties: methods 
act like functions, while properties act like variables; and properties 
have multiple associated code blocks (the getter and setter), while 
methods have only one. @decorator as designed applies only to functions, 
and is simply inappropriate for properties. Disappointing, perhaps, but 
not surprising--variables and functions *are* fundamentally different.

 > Talking about properties, I like the C# way of defining them, which
 > is straightforward and readable. The property begins like a method,
 > but has no argument list and includes a getter function with no
 > arguments and a setter function with one argument. Adapted to Python,
 >  it would look something like:
 >
 > class hasProperty:
 >     def __init__(self,aProperty='')
 >         self.aProperty = aProperty
 >     def AProperty:
 >         def get(self):
 >             return self.aProperty
 >         def set(self,value):
 >             self.aProperty = value
 > obj = hasProperty()
 > obj.AProperty = 'test'
 > print obj.AProperty

I, personally, don't like the idea of overloading def in this way. To 
me, 'def' defines something that looks and acts like a function, just 
like 'class' defines something that looks and acts like a class, or 
'while' defines something which looks and acts like a loop. AProperty is 
does not act like a function, so using def would be misleading.

I agree, though, that the best way to handle properties is though some 
sort of extended syntax. After all, we already have *a* way of doing it, 
we just don't like how it looks. To fix this, we need to compress the 
various pieces (name, storage, getter, setter, etc.) into a single 
declarative construct. (In fact, this is a large part of my problem with 
the proposed @ syntax: it isn't part of the function it modifies, but 
rather some sort of odd prefix. OTOH, the prefix notation would work 
with variables as well as functions, which is not possible with an infix 
notation: @global; x=10. Whether or not this is actually of any benefit 
is left as an exercise for the reader.)

I've thought for a while now that Python is skirting a breakthrough in 
how it treats statements. Python took a step in the right direction with 
generalizing iteration via generators, and I see utility in generalizing 
the idea of statements as well. In particular, what I'd like to see is 
the ability to define new *types* of statement.

Consider again the classmethod, staticmethod, and property. If these 
were defined as extended statements, we could code them more naturally:

   class C:
     c = 'Hi there!'

     class_def cm( c, a, b):   # class method
       return 'C(%r).cm( %r, %r) -> %r' % (id(c), a, b, c.c)

     static_def sm( a, b):       # static method
       return 'C.sm( %r, %r) -> %r' % (a, b, a % b)

     def im( s, a, b):        # instance method
       return 'C(%r).im( %r, %r) -> %r' % (id(s), a, b, (a % b) * self.a)

     def __init__( s, a):     # constructor
       s.a.__init__( a)

     property a:
       def __init__( s, v):
         __set__( s, v)
       def __get__( s):
         print 'C(%r).a -> %r' % (s, s.__a)
         return a
       def __set__( s, v):
         print 'C(%r).a <- %r' % (s, v)
         a = v

   >>> o = C( 3.1415)
   C(<C instance at 0x98765432>).a <- 3.1415
   >>> o.cm( 2, 3)
   C(<class C at 0x12345678>).cm( 2, 3) -> 'Hi there!'
   >>> o.sm( 4, 5)
   C.sm( 4, 5) -> 4
   >>> o.im( 6, 7)
   C(<C instance at 0x98765432>).a -> 3.1415
   C.im( 6, 7) -> 18.849
   >>> o.a
   C(<C instance at 0x98765432>).a -> 3.1415
   3.1415

In the above, 'class' is as we know them. 'class_def' and 'static_def' 
are statements similar to 'def', but define a class method or static 
method, respectively. Finally, 'property' is a statement which defines a 
new property, and takes a code block expected to contain functions with 
predefined names. Each of these could be implemented natively, or the 
way we would do it manually today.

Taking this to the extreme, all existing statement types (class, def, 
print, del, etc.) could be recast as these generalized statements. We 
could even allow subclassing of existing statements to modify their 
behavior (for example, class_def subclassing def to make the new 
function a class method). Strong Kung-Fu indeed. Scary, but strong.

Obviously, creating new control constructs is not something we'd want to
do every day, as it can be a great way to obfuscate code beyond all hope
of understanding--but the same is true of meta-classes. Just because it 
*could* be abused doesn't mean that it would be.

On the flip side, this doesn't address some of the more creative uses of 
decorators that people have been proposing. A new statement type, like 
class_def, effectively applies a fixed set of decorators (in the case of 
class_def, it applies only classmethod); if we want more variety, we 
still need decorators. They are independent ideas, even though they can 
overlap a bit.

I have absolutely no idea as to *how* any of this would be accomplished, 
mind you, but it would be *terribly* nifty.

   -- Mark


From unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom  Wed Aug 25 16:15:45 2004
From: unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom (Michel Claveau - abstraction méta-galactique non triviale en fuite perpétuelle.)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:15:45 +0200
Subject: Python + Erlang = Candygram
References: <mailman.2370.1093452945.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgk922$t71$1@news-reader4.wanadoo.fr>

Cool !





From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz  Wed Aug 25 23:14:48 2004
From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:14:48 +1200
Subject: On consensus decision-making (was Re: Alternative decorator
 syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WEDONE?)
In-Reply-To: <tZOdnSEokOGcWrfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
References: <mailman.2153.1093185119.5135.python-list@python.org>	<z-adnRDpSpoTJrXcRVn-iw@powergate.ca>	<cgdbi8$5re$1@panix2.panix.com>
	<CsmdnSOL1aXP3LfcRVn-vg@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.2259.1093320891.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<tZOdnSEokOGcWrfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <2p52tbFh1eb5U1@uni-berlin.de>

Peter Hansen wrote:
> 
> Has anything really changed?  Would it now be correct to say
> that C1 has a serious chance of being accepted if someone would
> just update the implementation to the state and quality (?) of
> the other two?

In a recent python-dev message, Guido said that, if it
were the agreed-upon alternative, he would reconsider it.

-- 
Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept,
University of Canterbury,	
Christchurch, New Zealand
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg



From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 18:39:51 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:39:51 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>
	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cgod7l$eig$1@sea.gmane.org>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:09:42 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>Yes, it doesn't seem all that complex, although I'm not sure that
>>everyone reading this understands them and their subtleties.  The
>>following is an excerpt from
>>http://docs.python.org/tut/node11.html#SECTION0011200000000000000000
>>
>>"A namespace is a mapping from names to objects. Most namespaces are
>>currently implemented as Python dictionaries, but that's normally not
>>noticeable in any way (except for performance), and it may change in the
>>future. Examples of namespaces are: the set of built-in names (functions
>>such as abs(), and built-in exception names); the global names in a
>>module; and the local names in a function invocation. In a sense the set
>>of attributes of an object also form a namespace."
> 
> 
>>When I talk about namespaces, I include all of the above, including the
>>sense mentioned in the last line.  So an object's attributes constitute
>>a namespace too.  Therefore __doc__, being an attribute of the function
>>object, is in the function object's /namespace/.  And note that this is
>>*not* a new namespace; it's been there all along.
> 
> 
> "In a sense" is the bit you're missing here. You can't just hand-wave
> and say that it's a namespace. It's *not* a namespace. If it was, you
> could do any of these:
> 

No I didn't miss it (I read that bit).  In a sense, every object has 
it's own namespace.  So that means that every class, every module, every 
function has a namespace (in a sense).  The namespace (the mapping from 
names to objects) is stored in each object's special __dict__ attribute.

Ok, and this is certainly apparent with classes.

   >>> class Foo:
   ... 	"""docstring for Foo"""
   ...
   >>> Foo.__doc__
   'docstring for Foo'
   >>> Foo.__dict__.keys()
   ['__module__', '__doc__']
   >>>

And because of the parallels between the above class definition of Foo 
and the following function definition of baz, I would expect the same 
behavior.

   >>> def baz():
   ...    """docstring of baz"""
   ...
   >>> baz.__doc__
   'docstring of baz'
   >>> baz.__dict__.keys()
   []

Say what?  Why didn't the Python system put baz's docstring into it's 
namespace (__dict__)?   And where did it put it?

I would like to understand the answers to these questions.  Can you 
answer them (will you)?  If not, can you please point me at something 
that documents what's going on here?

Thanks.

Paul



From JBrouwersAtProphICyDotCom at no.spam.net  Fri Aug 20 14:39:31 2004
From: JBrouwersAtProphICyDotCom at no.spam.net (Jean Brouwers)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:39:31 GMT
Subject: speed
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408191528100.1138-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<mailman.1992.1092961376.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <200820041139338175%JBrouwersAtProphICyDotCom@no.spam.net>


Another Python parser generator to look into is SimpleParse/mxTextTools

  <http://simpleparse.sourceforge.net/>

We use it to parse and process large log files.  In our case, a typical
grammar contains over 250 productions and parsing a log file of 180
Klines (100 MB) takes approx 3 min.  Processing the result from the
parse step requires an additional 3 mins.  This on a 2.4 GHz Xeon
machine running RedHat 8.

Obviously these figures are very grammar and application specific. Your
milage may vary.

/Jean Brouwers

PS) A good reference is David Mertz' book "Text Processing in Python"

  <http://www.informit.com/title/0321112547>

or several articles on (t)his web page

  <http://gnosis.cx/publish/tech_index_cp.html>




In article <mailman.1992.1092961376.5135.python-list at python.org>, Ayose
<ayose.cazorla at hispalinux.es> wrote:

> <http://systems.cs.uchicago.edu/ply/>.


From nytimes at swiftdsl.com.au  Tue Aug 17 10:23:46 2004
From: nytimes at swiftdsl.com.au (huy)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 00:23:46 +1000
Subject: SockerServer.TCPServer problem
Message-ID: <4122147e$0$27220$61ce578d@news.syd.swiftdsl.com.au>

Hi All,

Can someone explain why this bit of code can't keep up with some java 
code which spawns about 200 (threads) simultaneous connections each 
sending about 10 mesgs each. I basically don't get the 2000 connections 
i expect on the python side. I end up with some number very close on 
different runs eg. 1989, 1972, 1992 etc.

Any ideas ?

Huy

#!/usr/local/bin/python

import socket
import struct
import time
import SocketServer
import thread
from datetime import datetime

import os
import datetime
import random

LISTENING_PORT = 1600

cnt = 0

class PDAHandler(SocketServer.BaseRequestHandler):
    def handle(self):
       global cnt

       cnt += 1
       s = self.request
       dlen = s.recv(4, socket.MSG_WAITALL)
       print "Received: ", dlen, cnt, " from ", s.getpeername()
       dataLen = struct.unpack("!i", dlen)
       data = s.recv(dataLen[0])
       f = file("aaa/recv%02d.txt" % cnt, "w+")
       f.write(data)
       f.close()


def start_servers():
    msg_server = SocketServer.TCPServer(("", LISTENING_PORT), PDAHandler)
    msg_server.serve_forever()

if __name__ == "__main__":
    start_servers()


From gandalf at geochemsource.com  Wed Aug 11 09:46:02 2004
From: gandalf at geochemsource.com (Gandalf)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:46:02 +0200
Subject: Integers have docstring for int()
In-Reply-To: <59e9fd3a04081105087366db98@mail.gmail.com>
References: <59e9fd3a04081105087366db98@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <411A231A.4010303@geochemsource.com>

>
>
>I accidentally discovered that all the basic types in Python have
>docstrings that describe the functions to create them. For integers,
>you get:
>
Acually, they are not functions. They are built-in types. For example, 
try  this:

Python 2.3.3 (#1, Mar  8 2004, 14:26:02)
[GCC 3.3.3 [FreeBSD] 20031106] on freebsd5
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
 >>> int
<type 'int'>
 >>>

It is not a function but a type. I believe one of the most wanted 
changes in the language is about
unfying built-in types and (new-style) classes. A built-in type is not a 
class. However, it is very similar.
If you 'call' it, it acts as a constructor and creates an object of that 
type. It is the same with these:

float,str,tuple,list,long,unicode

and probably many others.

>Similarly, (1.0).__doc__ gives the docstring for float(), "".__doc__
>gives it for str(), [].__doc__ gives it for list(), and {}.__doc__
>gives it for dict().
>
>This seems a little unexpected to me; is there any particular reason
>for this behaviour?
>
Of course. For example, the literal

1

is an integer object. Integer objects inherit all their methods and 
attributes from their base class.
Acually, they are objects of built-in types but it is almost the same. I 
think that this is very cool.

:-)

Best,

   L 2.0




From robin at reportlab.com  Wed Aug 11 13:54:42 2004
From: robin at reportlab.com (Robin Becker)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 18:54:42 +0100
Subject: Python Decorators Voting Form
In-Reply-To: <zqydnen0Cf-ka4rcRVn-jQ@comcast.com>
References: <zqydnen0Cf-ka4rcRVn-jQ@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <411A5D62.6020904@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>

Doug Holton wrote:

> Here is a voting form where you can vote between 3 of the most popular 
> alternatives for the new Python decorator syntax:
> http://wiki.wxpython.org/index.cgi/PythonDecoratorsPoll
> 
> Please vote for which one you prefer the most, and feel free to leave 
> your comments as well.  This is just to allow us to count up everyone's 
> preferences and maybe help narrow down the alternatives to only 1 or 2 
> like Guido wants.
> 
> I know it's not fair to only show 3 options, but these 3 appear to have 
> the most number of different people supporting them based on mailing 
> list traffic.  If you like one option but want a different symbol (like 
> "|") or an additional keyword (like "using"), you can vote for it anyway 
> and leave your comment.

surely a none of the above is also desirable and it's better to include all of 
the many syntaxes to avoid biassing the outcome.

-- 
Robin Becker


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Sat Aug 21 16:02:31 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 22:02:31 +0200
Subject: backward compatibility?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408212200050.1131-100000@kleigh.nl>


So how serious are plans to remove things from Python, like
lambda and map and reduce? I am just starting out with Python
and if there is a danger that the programs I write today won't
work next year, I rather invest my time in another language. I
might try Ruby, or stick with Perl.


-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From lbates at swamisoft.com  Mon Aug  9 18:45:52 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 17:45:52 -0500
Subject: Popular Python projects with lots of pure Python code
References: <mailman.1418.1092088893.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <r_qdnZB5aJUOY4rcRVn-og@comcast.com>

ReportLab?

HTH,
Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.

"Brett C." <bac at OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote in message
news:mailman.1418.1092088893.5135.python-list at python.org...
> For my thesis (once the bloody thing stops throwing bugs at me) I am
> going to need to collect stats on the frequency that atomic types in
> local variables are applied to various opcodes and methods.  That means
> that I need something to collect stats off of.
>
> So I am trying to come up with a list of projects I can use to get my
> stats from.  the stdlib is a no-brainer.  Also plan to use Docutils.
> But beyond those most of the big Python projects I can think of have a
> ton of C code which is of no use to me.  I don't need to be able to run
> it, just going to be compiling to .py files.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> -Brett




From graeme.longman at tangozebra.com  Wed Aug  4 12:29:18 2004
From: graeme.longman at tangozebra.com (Graeme Longman)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 17:29:18 +0100
Subject: How to force a single number to be a tuple
In-Reply-To: <BAY9-F59lwDZ6WPRZsY0003af3b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MFEFIJMOMBBFIJOOCGHJIEOGCCAA.graeme.longman@tangozebra.com>

Hi,

Couldn't you say:

>>> y = 2,
>>> y
(2,)

Cheers.
Graeme

> -----Original Message-----
> From: python-list-bounces+graeme.longman=tangozebra.com at python.org
> [mailto:python-list-bounces+graeme.longman=tangozebra.com at python.org]On
> Behalf Of Jinming Xu
> Sent: 04 August 2004 17:26
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: How to force a single number to be a tuple
>
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> I have a number sequence, which is put into a tuple like this:
>
> y=2, 3.0, 4.5
>
> I can manipulate the sequence as a tuple when it has more than 1
> number. But
> when the sequence has only 1 number, like
>
> y=2
>
> I have trouble to manipulate it as a tuple.  I guess there must
> be a way to
> forece a single number to be a tuple. Could anyone please tell me that?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jinming
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar ? get it now!
> http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
>
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
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From dw-google.com at botanicus.net  Mon Aug 30 01:32:17 2004
From: dw-google.com at botanicus.net (David M. Wilson)
Date: 29 Aug 2004 22:32:17 -0700
Subject: Announcing PyCs, a new Python-like language on .Net
References: <mailman.2572.1093751093.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <99dce321.0408292132.36ef381e@posting.google.com>

Mark Hahn <mark at prothon.org> wrote in message news:<mailman.2572.1093751093.5135.python-list at python.org>...

> Please join the PyCs team.  The only effort involved is particpating in a
> low-traffic, high-content, mailing list.  You will be able to influence the
> design of the latest and greatest dynamic language. 

Hi there. What are you trying to achieve? You have yet to complete
Prothon or even stabilise it for long enough to let me get a good
overview of it. Might I suggest you take a step back and actually
think about what you are doing rather than just implementing whatever
happens to be considered cool today.

Also judging by what I've seen of Prothon and read here, neither of
your proposed languages are either Python-like or related to this
group.

Might I suggest you sit down with a paper and a pen and work out what
problem you are actually trying to solve, it is starting to get rather
embarrassing to watch the antics here. At the very least could you
spell check your postings before sending them.

There are also much better forums to discuss language development on
than comp.lang.python. Sorry for the flame, but you really need it.


David.


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug  6 13:36:11 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 13:36:11 -0400
Subject: directory path access
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1294.1091811517.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1294.1091811517.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ScydnRd37fQRXI7cRVn-og@powergate.ca>

Yong Wang wrote:
>     In my memmory, there is a system command to display all directory paths the python program has accessed.
> What is command format ? I only remember use sys.path.append or insert to add the path.

Do you just mean this?

import sys
print sys.path

Thats not a "command", per se, it's just displaying the current value
of the internal path that Python uses to find modules for import.

sys.path is a list, and that's why sys.path.append() is used to add
to it.

-Peter


From benm at cyber.com.au  Thu Aug 26 02:34:33 2004
From: benm at cyber.com.au (Ben McGinnes)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:34:33 +1000
Subject: Idle problem
In-Reply-To: <6haXc.183583$8_6.163380@attbi_s04>;
	from brent.hughes@comcast.net on Thu, Aug 26, 2004 at 12:37:23AM
	+0000
References: <6haXc.183583$8_6.163380@attbi_s04>
Message-ID: <20040826163433.B7326@devious.adversary.org>

Brent W. Hughes(brent.hughes at comcast.net)@Thu, Aug 26, 2004 at 12:37:23AM +0000:
> Sometimes when I try to start up idle.py (by double-clicking on the icon), I
> get the message:
> Python subprocess socket error: Connection refused, retrying....
> It repeats the message a couple of times and then prints:
> Connection to Idle failed, exiting.

I just fired up Idle and it displayed the following message:

    ****************************************************************
    Personal firewall software may warn about the connection IDLE
    makes to its subprocess using this computer's internal loopback
    interface.  This connection is not visible on any external
    interface and no data is sent to or received from the Internet.
    ****************************************************************

Which means you could be running some firewall software locally which
is not allowing Idle to open the sockets it requires.  You should
change this to allow all connections on the loopback.


Regards,
Ben
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From ellisjb at my-deja.com  Sun Aug 22 01:11:39 2004
From: ellisjb at my-deja.com (ellisjb at my-deja.com)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 22:11:39 -0700
Subject: Python future performance and speed
Message-ID: <cg99ub$an6@odbk17.prod.google.com>

I was goint to post that the myth of "python isn't fast enough"
has been pretty much dispelled in these enlightened times, but I
guess I was too optimistic. :)

-Jonathan

Paul Rubin wrote:
> Well, whenever I want to write a mainstream application and think of
> using Python, my first reaction is that Python is too slow...



From anne.wangnick at t-online.de  Tue Aug 31 15:13:00 2004
From: anne.wangnick at t-online.de (Anne Wangnick)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:13:00 +0200
Subject: Immutable sequence types lacking index() method
Message-ID: <DHEJIPGHDMKOKFPPKJLOMEMECAAA.anne.nospam01@wangnick.de>

Dear all,

I don't get why the index() method is only defined for mutable sequence
types. This is not what I expected. Shouldn't this be added in Python? Is
there such a PEP already?

Regards,
Sebastian Wangnick



From cemerick at snowtide.com  Sat Aug 14 01:05:48 2004
From: cemerick at snowtide.com (Chas Emerick)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 01:05:48 -0400
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
Message-ID: <9ADC3170-EDAF-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>

I thought I'd finally break my lurker status here by passing along a 
comment I made in connection with this weblog post 
<http://zephyrfalcon.org/weblog2/arch_e10_00610.html#e610>, one of many 
deriding the controversial feature of @decorators.  Feel free to flame 
away, especially if the regulars here think I'm beating a dead horse 
:-):

By no means am I an expert in Python (I get paid for writing Java, 
although my hobby projects have been in Lisp over the past few years), 
but this @decorator flap has made no sense to me at all.

The best argument against the new syntax is that it will impede noobs 
(like myself, I suppose) from picking up the language. I think nothing 
could be further from the truth, for one reason: action-at-a-distance 
is *always* bad.

The first time I saw this, I almost fell out of my chair:

def blah (args):
....[insert 50/100/200 lines here]
blah = staticmethod(blah)

That's BAD. That, my friends, is tough to wrap one's mind around, for 
the exact reason that, unless one reads through an entire module, the 
critical staticmethod call might not even be seen. That's a pretty 
devestating blow to the ability of a noob (or hell, anyone for that 
matter) to learn what's going on in some code.

So, when I see:

@staticmethod
def blah (args):
....[insert 100 lines]

I say, YES! Sure, decorators can get complicated, as exemplified by 
some of the examples provided in the post. However, just because 
something is complicated, or even not the greatest approach in some 
cases, doesn't invalidate it. Take recursion: a concept and practice 
that noobs trip over almost as a rule, and an approach that is 
constantly abused and overused in inappropriate situations. However, 
that surely doesn't mean that recursion should be disallowed, or 
scorned even. It means it should be respected, taught well, and used 
when appropriate. Decorators surely fall into the same category.

Regards,

Chas Emerick



From martin at v.loewis.de  Mon Aug  9 16:59:16 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 22:59:16 +0200
Subject: PEP 263 status check
In-Reply-To: <x7k6wbhzhs.fsf@handshake.de>
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com>
	<4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de> <x7k6wbhzhs.fsf@handshake.de>
Message-ID: <4117E5A4.9060106@v.loewis.de>

Dieter Maurer wrote:
> I hope, it will never come...

Your hope will not be fulfilled. Some version of Python *will*
require that all non-ASCII source code contains an encoding
declarations. Read PEP 263, which has already been accepted.

Regards,
Martin


From noone at here.com  Sun Aug 15 10:10:07 2004
From: noone at here.com (Calvin)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:10:07 +0100
Subject: Python secure?
Message-ID: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>

Hi to both of you,

For some reason I can't seem to reply to the post, hence my posting this as
a new topic

Sorry I should have said I'm new to programming let alone Python. I wish to
know whether Python is secure as an exe for a commercial product. i.e. can
someone see your code more easily than in say using another language. We're
not talking financial / security type software here just a basic windows
app.

Thanks




From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Fri Aug 20 15:47:05 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:47:05 -0700
Subject: My only complaint about Python
In-Reply-To: <87isbepaiy.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<pan.2004.08.20.05.47.36.399065@large.net>
	<87isbepaiy.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>
Message-ID: <10icl8fn39skq3e@corp.supernews.com>

510046470588-0001 at t-online.de wrote:

>flab ba <flab at large.net> writes:
>  
>
>>with the free Visual C++ Toolkit. Instructions are here:
>>    
>>
>
>all humbug. Visual C++ is nowhere near free, it's all proprietary.
>  
>

That's free-as-in-beer, not Free-as-in-speech. 

It's a shame that, at least in English, the most natural word to use for 
each of these two different concepts just happens to be the same word.  
But such is the case.  (I don't think it's practical to try to convince 
everyone, worldwide, to refer to it as 'gratis' and 'liberte'...)  And 
given that it *is* the case, it would be much more pleasant if people 
could use the word for both of its meanings without being criticized by 
people who are philosophically devoted to only one of those meanings. 

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From outpost at rumblefish.org  Thu Aug  5 18:55:55 2004
From: outpost at rumblefish.org (Thomas D'Tak)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 00:55:55 +0200
Subject: Python milestone releases
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.05.22.55.55.192128@rumblefish.org>

Hi everybody!

Recently, I am having more and more problems with the fact that
my Python version is far ahead of the Python versions I have to
write scripts for (CGI servers, LAN servers & clients etc. of
customers, ISPs etc.). Sometimes, these Python versions reach 
back to Python 2.0.

The question is now, how to handle this kind of problems?

I do not want to complain here that Python is developing too
fast; and I do not want to criticize Python's system of version
numbers. But I want to ask for resp. suggest something like
*official Python milestone releases*. (Please correct me if
something like that does already exist and I am just not aware
of it.)

Official Python milestone release statements should discourage
the use of older versions. Moreover, not each and every Python
release should be a milestone release (clearly).

Having milestone releases would make it easier to suggest to
customers, ISPs etc. to install a new Python version (the mile-
stone). Having milestones would put some pressure on them. (Well,
that sounds quite negative: 'pressure'; but I think you know what
I mean. Often, a server gets installed once and sees nothing
else but security updates after that; getting a new version of
a software package on such a server can be quite hard if you are
not the admin resp. are not allowed to install your own version 
of the software package.)

Another solution would be to stick to Python 2.0 forever -where
'forever' means the time span until the release of Python 3.0- 
(but I really do not like that idea :-)

Having milestones (not too often) would also simplify a lot of
other things; e.g. I would not have to study 'What's new in Python ...'
each and every time I have to write scripts for an older version
of Python. The 'older' version would simply be the last milestone
and I would have to know about two Python versions only: the milestone
and the most recent one.

How do you handle the above kind of problems resp. what do you think
about *official* Python milestones?

Thanks in advance for your answers! Th.



From tom at scoosh.com  Wed Aug 18 17:49:05 2004
From: tom at scoosh.com (tom at scoosh.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 22:49:05 +0100
Subject: 44t4t
Message-ID: <cg0iso$acr$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>





From export at hope.cz  Tue Aug 17 12:04:19 2004
From: export at hope.cz (Lad)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 09:04:19 -0700
Subject: News server(NNTP library) and Python
References: <81a41dd.0408162307.3eb1ea36@posting.google.com>
	<Xns95485C206CFEduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <81a41dd.0408170533.3dd46292@posting.google.com>

Duncan Booth <duncan.booth at invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:<Xns95485C206CFEduncanrcpcouk at 127.0.0.1>...
> export at hope.cz (Lad) wrote in 
> news:81a41dd.0408162307.3eb1ea36 at posting.google.com:
> 
> > I have a program that can send posts to a news server.The problem is
> > that I must find a free usenet(news) server that allows posting, which
> > is not easy. For this reason I would like to make a modification in my
> > program so that the program can act in a similar way how real news
> > server, that is to spread the new posts to another news server. But I
> > do not have much knowledge about the way how news server chooses
> > another news server to send it's new posting.
> > Can anybody give me a hint( idea)?
> 
> If you are running on Windows and just want a news server for testing, get 
> hold of a copy of Hamster (http://tglsoft.de/), this will act as both news 
> server and news client and lets you set up your own local newsgroups.
> 
> If you meant that you actually want a free news server to post to real 
> newsgroups, then sign up with news.individual.net. You have to agree to 
> some reasonable terms and conditions, but it is free.
> 
> Real news-servers transfer news between each other by having a list of 
> servers to which they will forward news they have received, so to run a 
> real news server you need a peering agreement with an existing server, and 
> you aren't going to get that. What you can do though is to write a program 
> which works in the same sort of way as Hamster: i.e. it acts as a client to 
> one or more upstream news-servers while also acting as a server. This isn't 
> suitable for running a full news feed but works well when you have 
> comparatively few newsgroups.

Thanks a lot for the explanation
Lad


From narshe at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 14:38:08 2004
From: narshe at gmail.com (Josh Close)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:38:08 -0500
Subject: asynchat connection timeout
Message-ID: <4a0cafe204082611381a96ef10@mail.gmail.com>

I'm using asynchat and I'm getting an error 

error: (110, 'Connection timed out')

This is ok, but how do I set what the timeout is?

-Josh


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Mon Aug  9 09:12:43 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 13:12:43 GMT
Subject: recursive list comprehension
References: <fa156589.0408090402.5ef3c40b@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <fLKRc.12298$rb2.5323@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"SimonVC" <python at simon.vc> wrote in message
news:fa156589.0408090402.5ef3c40b at posting.google.com...
> Is there a way to do this as a list comprehension?
>
> >>> def recu(alist, blist=[]):
> ...     if len(alist)==0: print blist
> ...     for i in range(len(alist)):
> ...             blist.append(alist.pop(i))
> ...             recu(alist, blist)
> ...             alist.insert(i, blist.pop())
>
> >>> recu(list("abc"))
> ['a', 'b', 'c']
> ['a', 'c', 'b']
> ['b', 'a', 'c']
> ['b', 'c', 'a']
> ['c', 'a', 'b']
> ['c', 'b', 'a']
>
>
> Cheers
>   SimonVC
>
> keywords: python recursive permutations algorithm combination jumble

Perhaps this cookbook recipe would be of help to you:
http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/204297

It describes how to access the current list comp from within the list comp
itself.

-- Paul




From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Sun Aug 15 11:42:51 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 11:42:51 -0400
Subject: Python secure?
In-Reply-To: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <E7ydnbnZ1uPiGYLcRVn-sw@giganews.com>

Calvin wrote:


> Sorry I should have said I'm new to programming let alone Python. I wish to
> know whether Python is secure as an exe for a commercial product. i.e. can
> someone see your code more easily than in say using another language. We're
> not talking financial / security type software here just a basic windows
> app.

You have still not defined the problem properly.

1. do you mean how easy is to decompile your program: to
recover source code from the executable one.

2. do you mean how easy is to extract/bypass some some
essential (authentication, passwords) elements in your program?

As for a comparison to other languages, both java and C# can be
decompiled.  Note that no method exists that would recreate
the original source code exactly as you wrote it, it only creates
a source code that will compile to the same executable, and, depending on
the situation that source code could be hard to interpret.

I might sound a little bit cynical here, but if you, as you state,
are new to programming I can assure you that there will be quite
a while until you produce a piece of software that will be worth the
effort to decompile. This should be your least concern at this point.

Istvan.


From dperl at rogers.com  Mon Aug 30 01:39:53 2004
From: dperl at rogers.com (Dan Perl)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 05:39:53 GMT
Subject: initializing mutable class attributes
Message-ID: <J4zYc.102357$UTP.98636@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>

There is something with initializing mutable class attributes that I am
struggling with.  I'll use an example to explain:
    class Father:
        attr1=None   # this is OK
        attr2=[ ]        # this is wrong
        def foo(self, data):
            self.attr1=data
            self.attr2.append(data)
The initialization of attr1 is obviously OK, all instances of Father
redefine it in the method foo.  But the initialization of attr2 is wrong
because all the instances of Father end up sharing the same value.  Maybe
that is desired sometimes, but usually it is just a bug.

So the only solution I see to this is to initialize attr2 in __init__:
    class Father:
        attr1=None
        def __init__(self):
            self.attr2=[ ]

This is already awkward because there is such a difference between attr1 and
attr2.  But moreover, I think this forces subclasses of Father to do
something like this:
    class Child (Father):
        def __init__(self):
            Father.__init__(self)
            self.attr3=[ ]

I find this even more awkward because many people will forget to do it.
Clearly, this is then a more general issue with __init__, but I think it is
accentuated by the fact that you HAVE TO HAVE __init__ in order to
initialize attributes that are mutable.

Is there something I don't know here and there is a better way to do this in
Python?  I would like to get a better solution or otherwise start a
discussion.




From russblau at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 16 10:34:25 2004
From: russblau at hotmail.com (Russell Blau)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:34:25 -0400
Subject: random / lists
References: <cfl5d1$f8p$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<zEDTc.210024$OB3.89400@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
	<cformj$vso$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <2obuvjF8q553U1@uni-berlin.de>

"M. Clift" <noone at here.com> wrote in message
news:cformj$vso$1 at newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Hi Wes,
>
> Thanks for responding.
>
> What I want is a system that controls the direction in a generated list.
If
> the user selects a number a letter is choosen for each number from at
random
> from an array. That's fine and easy to do. The hard part is, is that no
> letter can be repeated with only one letter interveining and the letters
can
> only follow each other under certain rules.
>
>  These being :
> 1. 'a' can be followed by any letter
> 2. 'b' can only be followed by 'c'
> 3. 'c' can be followed by 'a' or 'd'
> 4 'd' can be followed by 'a' or 'c'
>
> Really it doesn't matter what these rules are for the time being it's just
> working out a way to control the outcome of a list of unknown size.

How about if you define a dictionary mapping each letter to a list of the
letters that are allowed to follow it, then use random.choice() to pick one
member of the list.  For example,

mapping = {'a': ['b', 'c', 'd'], 'b': ['c'], 'c': ['a', 'd'],
           'd': ['a', 'c']}

then after you added the last letter to l, you could just do

allowed = mapping[l[-1]][:]    # nneds to be a copy because it may get
modified
if l[-2] in allowed:           # no letter can appear two out of three
places
    allowed.remove[l[-2]]
l.append(random.choice(allowed)

Of course, this doesn't account for every case (like, it won't work if l is
the empty list), and it may not satisfy all your desired rules, but it's a
start.


-- 
I don't actually read my hotmail account, but you can replace hotmail with
excite if you really want to reach me.




From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 11 13:52:46 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:52:46 -0400
Subject: PEP-0318
In-Reply-To: <fkteh0pvalomnrm7tk8ial4sgjaj9jjkj8@4ax.com>
References: <41122FC2.1080608@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1251.1091764482.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4114152f@nntp.zianet.com> <aIOdnRybBucMsIncRVn-gA@comcast.com>
	<4116bc20$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<mailman.1369.1092015284.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<c8neh0t41km1h79ufo4vkrhh78dt27vlok@4ax.com>
	<6NCdncg4ssq28orcRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>
	<fkteh0pvalomnrm7tk8ial4sgjaj9jjkj8@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <411a5cee$1@nntp.zianet.com>

Arthur wrote:
> And either intuitively, or consciously, he is doing something that
> offsets it from something truly intergrated into the core of the
> language.  By breakling all of his own rules.

But it *isn't* part of the core language. I think that's the whole 
point. @decorator does something that no other statement in Python does, 
so why should it *look* like a normal statement? Or are you suggesting 
that a keyword should be used instead of a symbol?

I must not understand your argument.

   -- Mark


From howard.stearns at charter.net  Mon Aug  9 10:11:58 2004
From: howard.stearns at charter.net (Howard Stearns)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 09:11:58 -0500
Subject: internal functions [Re: How do you feel ?]
In-Reply-To: <MsudnbLNk8GFuYncRVn-rA@powergate.ca>
References: <mailman.940.1087222870.6949.python-list@python.org>
	<mailman.1320.1091837963.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<MsudnbLNk8GFuYncRVn-rA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <4117862E.3000907@charter.net>

Sorry. When I said "define a named function in a top-level assignment", I 
didn't just mean using a reference to a previously defined function (i.e., 
it's name), I meant actually defining the function in the assignment.

If you haven't done this sort of thing for years, I could see it being 
hard to imagine why I would want to do this. After all, isn't the code 
clearer if we define the function with a name ahead of time? And doesn't 
the debugger work better with functions that have a name?

Well, I agree with this for what might be called middle-ground uses. 
However, I do a lot of work with very simple cases and very complicated ones.

In very simple cases, the code is more cluttered if I have to define the 
function separately. Now, when the function is simple, Python let's me 
define an anonymous function in the assignment. That's cool. But I also 
have cases where the assignment is simple, but maybe the function isn't. 
This came up for me when I tried to populate generic functions with 
methods. (See generic functions thread. Though it looks like decorators 
will soon help me out here...)

In very complex cases, I lament the shear distance between the function 
definition and the one place in the code where it is referenced. (Again, 
maybe decorators will help. Cool.)



Peter Hansen wrote:

> Howard Stearns wrote:
> 
>> The one thing I've found annoying is that I haven't yet discovered how 
>> to do whatever I want in lambda expressions. I have top-level 
>> assignments where I'd like create a function to use as the the value 
>> being assigned. I don't know how to define a named function in a 
>> top-level assignment, and a lambda won't allow me to use 'try' and 
>> other statements -- just expressions. Or am I looking at things wrong?
> 
> 
> What do you mean by "top-level assignment"?  If it's the same
> meaning most Python programmers would give it, you just do this:
> 
> def somefunc():
>     pass
> 
> topLevelName = somefunc
> 
> There's your top-level assignment of a named function.  Probably
> not what you meant, but can you clarify please?
> 
> -Peter



From nk at ebox.gr  Mon Aug  9 18:31:52 2004
From: nk at ebox.gr (Nikos Kouremenos)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 01:31:52 +0300
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
In-Reply-To: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <cf8trp$lnp$1@nic.grnet.gr>

Fred wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> 	I'm currently checking out Python as an alternative to VB.Net
> to moving from VB, but can't find a GUI designer that is as good as
> VB.
> 
> I tried wxDesigner and wxGlade, but neither lets me move the widgets
> around. I also tried Dialogblocks, but it seems to only handle C++ or
> XRC, not Python.
> 
> Is this all there is, or is there a gem I missed?
> 
> Thank you
> Fred.

this is because of the way wxWidgets. If you can't get used to it, then 
you can always try PyQT (which I believe you will find more close to 
your designer needs). For Windows you need to buy a license though.
PyGTK also won't do it for you (same as wxWidgets style).
You can also parse the XML files that exist for every widget [XRC, 
.glade, and so on]

Next time do a better 'web search'.
Good Luck,
Nikos


From alf at merlin.fayauffre.org  Thu Aug 19 04:35:53 2004
From: alf at merlin.fayauffre.org (Alexandre Fayolle)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:35:53 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <cg1op9$1j38$1@biggoron.nerim.net>

Hi,

Age 30. Started programming at 15 on an Atari 520STe, using GFA Basic...
Been full time Python programmer for 4 years. 

-- 
Alexandre Fayolle                              LOGILAB, Paris (France).
http://www.logilab.com   http://www.logilab.fr  http://www.logilab.org


From joeschey at earthlink.net  Wed Aug 25 15:54:30 2004
From: joeschey at earthlink.net (Joe S)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 12:54:30 -0700
Subject: Dynamic command on Menu items?
Message-ID: <2e3fe5bf.0408251154.74bc6243@posting.google.com>

(Python newbie alert..only 1 week's experience)

I want to create several menu items based upon a config file. In this
config file are label, function and a parameter. I want to show label
in the menu, then when it's chosen, call function with the given
parameter.

How can I do the correct equivalent of the following (which definitely
doesn't work)?

l='Zooks'
f='func'
p='Got Zooks'
M.menu.add_command(label=l, command=lambda: f(p))

so that when I pick 'Zooks' from the menu, func gets called with 'Got
Zooks'.


Joe


From peter at engcorp.com  Wed Aug  4 23:05:10 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 23:05:10 -0400
Subject: The term "Protocol"
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1149.1091645188.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <pan.2004.07.31.12.27.23.547000@hotmail.com>	<1f7befae04080117515cbb0ca9@mail.gmail.com>	<6910338109.20040801192523@	<mailman.1042.1091409923.5135.python-list@python.org>	<celk0m$b65$1@panix3.panix.com>	<393390620.20040804124623@MailBlocks.com>
	<mailman.1149.1091645188.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <38ednYb1NLx7PozcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>

Bruce Eckel wrote:

> Monday, August 2, 2004, 8:44:38 AM, Aahz wrote:
>>Alex Martelli gave an excellent presentation on Design Patterns at OSCON,
>>where he made the point that "interface" is roughly equivalent to syntax,
>>whereas "protocol" is roughly equivalent to syntax plus semantics.  In
>>other words, computer langauges rarely (if ever -- although I suppose
>>Eiffel comes close) enforce protocols in any meaningful way.
> 
> But what would the syntax be in Python? -- there is none. Perhaps you
> mean that in Java a protocol would be an interface plus agreed-upon
> semantics, whereas in Python the protocol would be the agreed-upon
> (e.g. "latent") interface plus the agreed-upon semantics. In a sense,
> both the syntax and semantics would be latent; they would only be
> exposed and tested during use, since there is no formalized way to
> define them.
> 
> In Python, of course, you could simply use a class with "pass" methods
> everywhere to define a protocol. If there were some way to write
> assertions about the protocol you could include those in the class.

My reading of Alex' description seems to be the opposite.  By definining
protocol to include the semantics, you are basically ensuring that an
implementation with "pass" would not be valid, except for a useless
protocol that defined null semantics.  But yes, what you say about the
"latency" is true, and that's how Python works in many areas.  You
need decent automated tests to catch certain errors in Python, though
tools like PyChecker can help with some of the ones that compilers
will find in statically typed languages.

-Peter


From export at hope.cz  Thu Aug 19 15:09:07 2004
From: export at hope.cz (Lad)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 12:09:07 -0700
Subject: Py2Exe PROBLEM
References: <81a41dd.0408190023.44d34c44@posting.google.com>
	<2tGdncgUvpKRD7ncRVn-oQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <81a41dd.0408191109.1fc98889@posting.google.com>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message news:<2tGdncgUvpKRD7ncRVn-oQ at powergate.ca>...
> Lad wrote:
> 
> > I try to make an exe file from my script with help of Py2exe but I am
> > not successfull.
>  ...
> > When compilation finishes I get:
> > 
> > The following modules appear to be missing
> > ['blackbox', 'timing', 'rgs.py']
> > 
> > Can you please help me how to solve the problem?
> 
> If you explain what problem you are actually having.
> 
> Are you assuming simply because of that warning message that
> it didn't work?  What happens when you try to run the resulting
> .exe file?
> 
> Note that py2exe will sometimes complain about modules that
> are not actually required for the program to run.
> 
> Also please explain what "blackbox" and "timing" are, if
> they are part of the problem.
> 
> Finally (and this might be the whole problem), you seem
> to be using "import rgs.py" when you really meant to use
> just "import rgs".  You don't import Python modules using
> the full filename of the source file...
> 
> -Peter

Dear Peter,
Thank you for your help.
Yes, I changed import rgs.py to import rgs but I still receive
 >>The following modules appear to be missing
> > ['blackbox', 'timing', 'rgs.py']

When I try to start the exe file I get 

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "rgs.pyc", line 561, in OnFileHistory
    
  File "pickle.pyc", line 1390, in load
  File "pickle.pyc", line 872, in load
  File "pickle.pyc", line 985, in load_string
LookupError: unknown encoding: string-escape

Can you please help again?
Lad


From jason at tishler.net  Thu Aug 19 07:09:08 2004
From: jason at tishler.net (Jason Tishler)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:09:08 -0400
Subject: IDLE under Cygwin doesn't show toolbar menu
In-Reply-To: <56cfb0e3.0408181608.794fed82@posting.google.com>
References: <56cfb0e3.0408181608.794fed82@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <20040819110908.GB77948@tishler.net>

On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 06:05:25PM -0700, Porky Pig Jr wrote:
> Just want to check if anyone else ever ran into this problem and what
> was the workaround -- before I contact Cygwin folks.

See the following:

    http://sf.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=105470&aid=786827&group_id=5470

Any help debugging this problem would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Jason

-- 
PGP/GPG Key: http://www.tishler.net/jason/pubkey.asc or key servers
Fingerprint: 7A73 1405 7F2B E669 C19D  8784 1AFD E4CC ECF4 8EF6


From bokr at oz.net  Sun Aug 22 01:27:59 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 05:27:59 GMT
Subject: J2 decorator grammar
References: <mailman.2130.1093134487.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cg9asv$kq8$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 17:22:43 -0700, "Robert Brewer" <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote:
[...]
>For that reason (and others), I plan not to promote any form of the word
>"decorate". We can start having that conversation now if you want. ;)
>
What about just using

    def:
        deco1
        deco2('with','parameters')
        any_expression_returning_a_callable_allowing_a_single_arg_call
    def foo():
        pass

also perhaps allowing

    def:deco1
    def foo():pass

grepping for def will then show easily what functions have "decorators"

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From bh at intevation.de  Thu Aug 26 14:19:49 2004
From: bh at intevation.de (Bernhard Herzog)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:19:49 +0200
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2457.1093542207.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <s9zr7ptahiy.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>

"Robert Brewer" <fumanchu at amor.org> writes:

>> For
>
> Isn't *anyone* going to vote against? 

I'm against it.  I don't find the arguments in favor of J2 convincing,
and to my eyes the pie-syntax reads better.  

Also, I don't think "using" is a good choice for the keyword.  A
different keyword would not change my mind, though.

   Bernhard

-- 
Intevation GmbH                                 http://intevation.de/
Skencil                                http://sketch.sourceforge.net/
Thuban                                  http://thuban.intevation.org/


From jerf at jerf.org  Fri Aug 27 13:05:37 2004
From: jerf at jerf.org (Jeremy Bowers)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:05:37 GMT
Subject: mixing statements into J2
References: <mailman.2456.1093542099.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.27.13.05.37.39038@jerf.org>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:36:08 -0700, Robert Brewer wrote: 
> using:
>     if test:
>         memoize
>     else:
>         synchronize
>     classmethod
> def foo(self, *args):
>     stuff(args)

Others have pointed out the illegality of this, I would point out there is
a legal way for those who may not realize it:

if test:
    myDec = memoize
else:
    myDec = syncronize

using:
    myDec
    classmethod
def foo(self, *args):
    stuff(*args)



I quite frequently do this to create modules that adapt to the environment
they are in... e.g., I don't require Zope support but if you have it I
will dynamically derive a class from Persistant, or object otherwise:

base = object
try:
    import ZODB
    base = ZODB.Persistant
except:
    # one of those rare cases where a bare except doesn't matter
    pass

class Whatever(base):
    pass

(I don't actually do this anywhere but I do the equivalent elsewhere in my
code.)

This is one of those things that keeps me from ever wanting to go back to
C++; you shouldn't make a habit out of this but when you need it there is
no substitute.



From russblau at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 30 09:11:06 2004
From: russblau at hotmail.com (Russell Blau)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:11:06 -0400
Subject: IDLE does not start on WinXP
References: <mailman.2568.1093726031.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2pgnbbFkhertU1@uni-berlin.de>

"George Carman" <gj_carman at hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2568.1093726031.5135.python-list at python.org...
> Please excuse the following mailing, I do not have access to a news server
> and cannot post to comp.lang.python.

>>> python-list at python.org is comp.lang.python
True

> I recently installed Python 2.3.4 on WinXP.  Command line interpreter
works
> fine but the IDLE GUI will not start.  When run from a commandline I get
the
> following traceback.  Both WinXP and McAfee firewalls are disabled.  Any
> suggestions would be appreciated.

Since the traceback indicates that the error arose in a command related to
socket communication, I think the first thing you should check is your
firewall software. You should allow connections to 127.0.0.1 (the loopback
to your own machine).  (If you've installed XP Service Pack 2, you now have
firewall software whether you knew it or not.)


-- 
I don't actually read my hotmail account, but you can replace hotmail with
excite if you really want to reach me.




From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Sat Aug  7 19:49:37 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 08 Aug 2004 01:49:37 +0200
Subject: Decorator syntax
References: <mailman.1173.1091670172.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<38ednYT1NLz1P4zcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
	<JEiQc.16955$_25.574@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408050856390.31290-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu>
	<2njp58F1jj1dU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040808a4yj@bombur.uio.no>

Yawar Amin wrote:
> How about
> 
> def foo(a, b, c):
>      foo.accepts = (int, int, list)
>      foo.author = 'Chris King'

That already has a different meaning: Function foo sets those attributes
on itself each time it is called.  They should be set once, before the
function is called.

$ python2.3
>>> def foo(a, b, c):
...      foo.accepts = (int, int, list)
...      foo.author = 'Chris King'
... 
>>> foo.author
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
AttributeError: 'function' object has no attribute 'author'
>>> foo(1,2,3)
>>> foo.author
'Chris King'

-- 
Hallvard


From mb at muenster.de  Fri Aug 20 10:39:05 2004
From: mb at muenster.de (Martin Bless)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:39:05 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <41260864.726953@news.muenster.de>

["Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com>]

>One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
>Python programmer??


49.

Started 1974 punching cards for an IBM 1130 machine. A highlight: Fill
a complete program with two interrupt routines into a single punch
card. It would write something like "job defect" on the typewriter
console. Just one card means: you can use just 80 words of code on
that 16-bit machine. And since a column on a card only had 12 rows
your could use only a special subset of availabe machine instructions.

Then there came the TRS-80. I'm still proud of the way I stored my Z80
assembler routines in REM lines of a basic program. That way I could
easily merge und bundle those "machine language" routines. Yes, I
lived very much in the book with the ROM disassembly listing those
days ;-)

And I remember taking a (INTER-) LISP course. I liked it alot but
never managed to be productive with LISP. 

Now I have what I need to have fun *and* accomplish useful things:
Python! Many thanks to all who help developing this cool language!

MB - Martin Bless







From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz  Fri Aug 13 00:01:07 2004
From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:01:07 +1200
Subject: Popular Python projects with lots of pure Python code
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1418.1092088893.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1418.1092088893.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2o2so3F68r28U1@uni-berlin.de>

Brett C. wrote:
> For my thesis (once the bloody thing stops throwing bugs at me) I am 
> going to need to collect stats on the frequency that atomic types in 
> local variables are applied to various opcodes and methods.  That means 
> that I need something to collect stats off of.

You're welcome to munge through the code of
my 3 main Python projects:

http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg/python/Pyrex
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg/python/Plex
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg/python_gui

-- 
Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept,
University of Canterbury,	
Christchurch, New Zealand
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg



From cjw at sympatico.ca  Mon Aug 16 10:24:50 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:24:50 -0400
Subject: PEP 318 decorators are not Decorators
In-Reply-To: <Xns9546756484138arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.29>
References: <Xns9543CB4CF5EDFarienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.7>
	<cfhsri$a1q$1@news1.wdf.sap-ag.de>
	<Xns95446284A8DA2arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.29>
	<mailman.1625.1092418237.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Xns9544A70A17365arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>
	<mailman.1662.1092523102.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Xns9546756484138arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.29>
Message-ID: <Ns3Uc.5169$Tr.369640@news20.bellglobal.com>



Arien Malec wrote:
> Skip Montanaro <skip at pobox.com> wrote in
> news:mailman.1662.1092523102.5135.python-list at python.org: 
> 
> 
>>    Arien> 3) Won't most programmers think GoF decorators before
>>    Arien> compiler syntax tree decorators?
>>
>>    Skip> Not if they are unfamiliar with the GoF patterns (myself
>>    included). 
>>
>>    Arien> Google: [~62,000 : ~130 mentions of each sort of decorator]
>>
>>    ...
>>
>>BFD.... The thing is, just because in a verbal Rohrschach
>>test you think "GoF" when someone says "decorator" doesn't mean
>>everybody else will (or should).
> 
> 
> Clearly, Python can choose any name for the auto-function-transformation 
> syntax in question, but it's rather willfully confusing to choose a name 
> that's heavily identified with a profoundly different semantics that's 
> superficially similar in intent.
> 
> Arien
This is especially confusing as, in everyday english usage, to decorate
is not the same as to transform.

Perhaps "transform" could be consdered as an alternative.

The Mad Hatter's response to Alice dealt with the root naming issue:
   "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone. "It
    means just what I choose it to mean - neither more or less."

   "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so
     many different things."
   "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's
    all."

Colin W.



From heikowu at ceosg.de  Tue Aug 10 09:43:03 2004
From: heikowu at ceosg.de (Heiko Wundram)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:43:03 +0200
Subject: decorators, function signature, and help()
In-Reply-To: <cfae8m$go2$05$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <cfae8m$go2$05$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <200408101543.03300.heikowu@ceosg.de>

Read up on the following article on python-dev:

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.devel/62057

HTH!

Heiko.


From rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm  Fri Aug 27 04:01:14 2004
From: rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm (Roel Schroeven)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 08:01:14 GMT
Subject: How to generically transform a list?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2505.1093589841.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <opsdcguchn35jo5o@news.gmane.org>
	<mailman.2505.1093589841.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <eTBXc.226897$095.11575327@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

Marco Aschwanden wrote:
> 
> Thanks to all the hints which seem to prove that there is one and only 
> one sensible approach - though some (like me) needed a few more lines.
> 
> It is just funny how easy horizontal slicing is made (list[:]) but how 
> "difficult" vertical slicing is. It is a common task and one does not 
> realize how often one does need vertical slicing. eg.: getting the keys 
> of dictionary is a vertical slicing, or turning a list into a dict 
> involves vertical slicing...
> 
> Just out of pure curiosity: Is there a langue that allows vertical and 
> horizontal slicing and dicing with the same built-in pattern?

You can do it (sorta) in Python: use zip to turn the columns into rows 
and vice-versa, apply the slicing, than zip back:

 >>> l = [['a', 1, 11, 'aa'], ['b', 2, 22, 'bb'], ['c', 3, 33, 'cc']]
 >>> zip(*(zip(*l)[2:0:-1]))
[(11, 1), (22, 2), (33, 3)]

Step-by-step to see what happens:

 >>> zip(*l)
[('a', 'b', 'c'), (1, 2, 3), (11, 22, 33), ('aa', 'bb', 'cc')]
 >>> zip(*l)[2:0:-1]
[(11, 22, 33), (1, 2, 3)]
 >>> zip(*(zip(*l)[2:0:-1]))
[(11, 1), (22, 2), (33, 3)]

-- 
"Codito ergo sum"
Roel Schroeven


From eddie at holyrood.ed.ac.uk  Mon Aug 23 13:22:50 2004
From: eddie at holyrood.ed.ac.uk (Eddie Corns)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:22:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: telnet 'connection reset by peer'
References: <mailman.2213.1093280012.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgd95a$ftt$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>

Donnal Walter <donnal at donnal.net> writes:

>On Windows XP I am able to connect to a remote telnet server from the 
>command prompt using:

>telnet nnn.nnn.nnn.nnn 23

>where nnn.nnn.nnn.nnn is the IP address of the host. But using 
>telnetlib, this code returns the traceback that follows:

>import telnetlib
>host = 'nnn.nnn.nnn.nnn'
>tn = telnetlib.Telnet(host, 23)
>tn.read_until("Enter device name?")


>Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\mindwrapper\test\telnet.py", line 
>4, in ?
>     tn.read_until("Enter device name?")
>   File "C:\Python23\lib\telnetlib.py", line 316, in read_until
>     self.fill_rawq()
>   File "C:\Python23\lib\telnetlib.py", line 521, in fill_rawq
>     buf = self.sock.recv(50)
>socket.error: (10054, 'Connection reset by peer')

>Is there some parameter that I need to set in order to connect using the 
>telnetlib client? Thanks.

No, that should work, to a reasonably conforming telnet server.  Try doing
tn.set_debuglevel(2) before the read_until() to see what's coming back.

Does it happen instantly or is something timing out?

Eddie




From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Thu Aug 12 10:41:36 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:41:36 +0200
Subject: Yet another decorator proposal
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1510.1092238880.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1480.1092204219.5135.python-list@python.org>	<2ntvn1F4mgskU1@uni-berlin.de>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408111054010.19452-100000@ccc1.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1510.1092238880.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2o1dcnF5s9itU1@uni-berlin.de>

Marco Aschwanden wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:55:40 -0400, Christopher T King <squirrel at WPI.EDU> 
> wrote:
> 
>> Also, don't forget docstrings get thrown away when using python -OO.
>> Great voodoo would be needed to prevent this from happening.
> 
> <magic>
> By now the compiler takes the first triple-quoted-string and sets it on 
> the object's __doc__-var.

It doesn't really need to be triple-quoted, does it?

Reinhold

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From sjmaster at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 17:08:02 2004
From: sjmaster at gmail.com (SM)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 14:08:02 -0700
Subject: Just a quick one
References: <cgi2qq$rvp$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <cgi3ev$g6k$1@online.de>
	<cgi5vc$m52$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <6542462a.0408251308.475b6c22@posting.google.com>

"M. Clift" <noone at here.com> wrote in message news:<cgi5vc$m52$1 at news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> Sorry, another question. How do I remove the brackets form the list?
> Name_List.remove('(') doesn't work.

The parentheses or brackets are not "in" the tuple or list. They are
used in the representation of tuples or lists. The tuple ('Bob',
'Mary') consists of two objects, the string "Bob" and the string
"Mary". But when we describe a tuple using the canonical notation, we
put parentheses around the elements, and we put commas between them.
Those are part of the representation, not part of the tuple.
(Likewise, when I say 'the string "Bob" and the string "Mary"', the
double quote marks around each name are not part of the string, they
are part of how you represent a string.)

If you want to remove parentheses and commas from printing a tuple,
then don't print the whole tuple, but loop through it and print each
element.


From simonroses at granisla.com  Mon Aug  9 18:16:05 2004
From: simonroses at granisla.com (Simon Roses Femerling)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 16:16:05 -0600
Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: Web Audit Library  (WAL) 0.3
Message-ID: <001801c47e5e$78334cb0$a1a05b18@spectra>

Dear python coders,
Web Audit Library (Wal) is a python module that provides a powerful and easy API for writing web applications assessment tools, similar to what Libwhisker does for Perl. Wal comes from the need of such a library for python. Writing web security tools using Wal is very straightforward.  Wal provides the following features send/receive/analyze HTTP 0.9/1.0/1.1, HTML parser, cookie support, anti-IDS, decoders/encoders and much more...  Needs python 2.3 or later.

http://www.roseslabs.com


Enjoy!!

SRF

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From bjg at network-theory.co.uk  Tue Aug 17 13:02:12 2004
From: bjg at network-theory.co.uk (Brian Gough)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 18:02:12 +0100
Subject: Problem with floating point precision
References: <ec6dce8b.0408170538.1f0211d2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <87n00titpn.fsf@network-theory.co.uk>

j_mckitrick at bigfoot.com (j_mckitrick) writes:

> I checked the docs, but found nothing about floating point issues.

See the appendix "Floating Point Arithmetic: Issues and Limitations"
in the Python Tutorial for a discussion of this topic.

-- 
Brian Gough

Network Theory Ltd,
Publishing the Python Manuals --- http://www.network-theory.co.uk/


From rnd at onego.ru  Thu Aug 19 11:58:13 2004
From: rnd at onego.ru (Roman Suzi)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:58:13 +0400 (MSD)
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <1a608e98.725b9b40.8235400@po-d.temple.edu>
References: <1a608e98.725b9b40.8235400@po-d.temple.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408191944180.17972@rnd.onego.ru>

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 brianc at temple.edu wrote:

>Now my question is... am I a programmer yet? or still just a
>script kiddie?

One knows when one becomes a programmer. Its almost the same
feeling like mastering a bicycle or learning to swim.
Script kiddies are those who use ready programs, maybe
tweaking some constants in them.

>I've started to use classes regularly, so does that make it a
>yes? However, everything I've written this summer has been
>take data-->do something to each record-->output data
>That sounds like a script to me.

Script is a programme. Making scripts is programming.

>However, I've created totally self contained "scripts" that
>does stuff in minutes that other "professional" software takes
>days to do.
>
>I'm not talking pushing a few SQL statements around like I
>used to, now it's taking millions of possible drug candidate
>molecules, breaking into chemically similiar sets, computing
>comparison matices, doing fuzzy logic to decide which is the
>best and in the end making sure the entire thing can run on a
>128 processor linux cluster.
>
>Am I a programmer yet?

I felt that I am a programmer after one year starting learning Basic (it was
at age 14, 7th form IIRC). Before it happened at each nontrivial task I had a
feeling that it's a wall in front of me! But after the change happened,
programming became a matter of knowing syntax. It became universal skill, not
depending on a programming language.

>The only class I've ever taken dealing with computers was 5 years ago on
>using CSS to ease webpage design.

Good programmers start as self-learners. Then they master
and systemize theory and then practice alot.

>Oi, sorry, tomarrow's my last day at this internship, I could
>probably be knocking out 3-4 more python programs by then.=-)
>Without Python, I wouldn't know where the hell I would be.
>
>Thank you all!
>-Brian
>

Sincerely yours, Roman Suzi
-- 
rnd at onego.ru =\= My AI powered by GNU/Linux RedHat 7.3


From sharidas at zeomega.com  Mon Aug 16 02:52:10 2004
From: sharidas at zeomega.com (Satchidanand Haridas)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:22:10 +0530
Subject: reconstruct list and dictionary  from file
In-Reply-To: <20040816032354.55843.qmail@web53708.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040816032354.55843.qmail@web53708.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4120599A.3030203@zeomega.com>

Steve Perry wrote:

>I have a serialized list and dictionary stored in a file, with the
>following format:
>
>mydata:
>   color ["red" "green" "blue"]
>   origin [0.0 13.2 9.2]
>   datasource1 {server:"server1.domain" username:"client"
>password:"secret"}
>
>  
>
Is the above format the only way you want to store the serialized list? 
I ask because (and in case
you aren't already aware of the 'execfile' method), if you can store 
'mydata' in the form of legal Python expressions,
you can use the 'execfile' method to  create live objects out of the 
data-structures stored in the list.

Regards,
Satchit,


>Is there any APIs to reconstruct the mydata object back with the list
>and dictionary recreated in it?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Steve
>
>
>		
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 
>  
>


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Tue Aug 10 13:33:48 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:33:48 -0400
Subject: OO menu management
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1455.1092152263.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1455.1092152263.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408101305010.7362-100000@ccc2.wpi.edu>

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, Egbert Bouwman wrote:

> I still have for each menu button:
> - a callback-name variable in the gui class
> - a real callback method in the application class
> and now a dictionary that links those two.  
> That dictionary is argument-passed to the gui.
> 
> Additionally in the gui itself I have a nested list with for each button:
> - the name of the menu button (MenuItem) itself
> - the name of the sub-menu it belongs to
> - the tekst on the button
> - the sub-menu it may open
> - the name of its callback (
> - the callback arguments

I was doing the same thing in an app I was working on, only with a toolbox 
instead of menus, but...

> It is quite complex, with a lot of correspondences that may go wrong.
> So I wonder if my approach is the right one.

What you're doing is a good way to make the menu system
toolkit-independent.  This is helpful if you plan to make your entire
program toolkit-independent, i.e. you plan to include code for, say,
Tkinter, wxPython, and PyQt.  If that's your final aim, though, I'd
suggest you rather look at AnyGui, which is a toolkit-independent toolkit
(the sort of thing Python should ship with), and just hardcode menus using
its menu widgets, rather than generalizing menus yourself.

If you're not looking for a toolkit-independent program, but rather just
one which you could easily rewrite the GUI code to work with another
toolkit at some point in the future, you're probably better off just
hardcoding the menus into the GUI portion of your program, since any 
change of toolkit will require a complete rewrite of that portion anyways.

Hope this helps.



From mj-usunto at tkb.pl  Thu Aug 19 08:39:05 2004
From: mj-usunto at tkb.pl (Marcin Jurczuk)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:39:05 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Deleting rows using PyDO from SkunkWeb
Message-ID: <cg2719$c8$1@korweta.task.gda.pl>

Hello group.
Could someone descripe how to delete many row at one time 
from MySQL database using SkunkWeb PyDO pacgage ??
Documentation is very short about that ...
Assume that Base is class define like in PyDO doc, so
Base.new(...) adds new row..
Documetation show ony delete() without any arguments.
SQL query is like "DELETE FROM SESSIONS WHERE acc_time < '398984353'"

Thanks for read this :-)



-- 
Marcin Jurczuk, NIC-HDL: MJ1679-RIPE


From ben at benlast.com  Tue Aug 17 09:50:37 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:50:37 +0100
Subject: How big can a Python program be?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408170910560.31141-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPEEAHCEAA.ben@benlast.com>

The last few of a list of wc's run on the Enthought Python 2.3.3
distribution.  First element of the tuple is line count, second is module
filename.  I'm sure whole packages would be much bigger, but I was curious
as to how big a typical module might get.

(3244, '/cygdrive/c/Python23/Lib/site-packages/scipy/xplt/slice3.py')
(3665, '/cygdrive/c/Python23/Lib/lib-tk/Tkinter.py')
(3820,
'/cygdrive/c/Python23/Lib/site-packages/scipy/stats/distributions.py')
(4036, '/cygdrive/c/Python23/Lib/test/test_descr.py')
(4362, '/cygdrive/c/Python23/Enthought/demos/wxPython/demo/throbImages.py')
(4362,
'/cygdrive/c/Python23/Lib/site-packages/wxPython/demo/throbImages.py')
(4499, '/cygdrive/c/Python23/Lib/site-packages/win32/lib/win32con.py')
(5373, '/cygdrive/c/Python23/Lib/site-packages/wxPython/demo/images.py')
(5377, '/cygdrive/c/Python23/Enthought/demos/wxPython/demo/images.py')
(7364, '/cygdrive/c/Python23/Lib/site-packages/wxPython/lib/maskededit.py')

> -----Original Message-----
> From: python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org
> [mailto:python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org]On Behalf Of
> Christopher T King
> Sent: 17 August 2004 14:13
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Re: How big can a Python program be?
>
>
> On 17 Aug 2004 vronskij at post.sk wrote:
>
> > Suppose , you are a sole programmer (lonewolf). How many lines can one
> > handle?
>
> $ wc -l my_current_big_project_that_is_very_far_from_being_complete/*
>    2945
>
> I'm sure others can do better than that.
>
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



From rho at see.signature.invalid  Thu Aug  5 03:17:17 2004
From: rho at see.signature.invalid (Nigel Rowe)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 17:17:17 +1000
Subject: Overhead of (was Reasoning behind) nested scope
References: <mailman.1087.1091532385.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ceo852$9go$00$1@news.t-online.com>
	<10h0kducrd2fod3@news.supernews.com>
	<ceq0jq$k7o$04$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <10h3nntqrsfba9f@news.supernews.com>

Peter Otten wrote:

> Nigel Rowe wrote:
> 
>> Peter Otten wrote:
>> 
>>> Andy Baker wrote:
>>> 
>

<snip>

>> What work is actually done when the 
>>         'nested function creation code of the "inner" function'
>> is executed?

< snip >

> 
> In the example you get three extra instructions, LOAD_CONST, MAKE_FUNCTION
> and STORE_FAST (and earn the slight benefit that inner is now a local
> instead of a global). A constant code object is used, meaning compilation
> takes place at most once when the module is loaded. There is a dedicated
> op-code, so function creation should be faster than "normal" creation of a
> class instance.
> 
> Now this is all nice and dandy, but how do the two contenders perform?
> 
> $ timeit.py -s"def inner(): pass" -s"def outer(): return inner" "outer()"
> 1000000 loops, best of 3: 0.469 usec per loop
> $ timeit.py -s"def outer():" -s"  def inner(): pass" -s"  return inner"
> "outer()"
> 1000000 loops, best of 3: 1.12 usec per loop
> 
> i. e. nesting the two functions roughly doubles execution time.
> However, creation of an inner function often will only take a small
> fraction of the total time spent in the outer function - in the end it's
> just a matter of style.
> 
> I use inner functions only when they depend on the local context because I
> think it nicely discriminates closures from helpers. I tend to omit
> implicit parameters even for helper funtions, therefore nesting them would
> gain me nothing.
> 
> Peter

Thanks Peter, I didn't know about timeit.py (it's now on my $PATH).

I don't think I'm going to worry about the overhead (except in deeply nested
loops).  From some quick testing it looks like the overhead is about the
same as 1.5 times
        a=b[10:20] # where b="the quick brown jox jumps over the lazy dog"
and less than 1/2 of
        a=math.sin(0)

So if the nested code is easier to read, in it goes.
-- 
        Nigel Rowe
        A pox upon the spammers that make me write my address like..
                rho (snail) swiftdsl (stop) com (stop) au


From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug  9 01:52:23 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 09 Aug 2004 05:52:23 GMT
Subject: how many bytes in an int
References: <9ACRc.1523$bJ2.9739@news1.mts.net>
	<4116f8ee$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<FADRc.1532$bJ2.9871@news1.mts.net>
	<41170cd1$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <41171116$0$8079$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-09, Grant Edwards <grante at visi.com> wrote:

> The struct module is the only thing I know about.  If you're
> worried about the "C" types in the struct module changing
> underneat you, you could do a pure Python implimentation of
> "python-int" to/from DWORD. It's utterly trivial and shouldn't
> take more than one or two lines of code.

def toLittleEndianDWORD(i):
    return ''.join(map(chr,[x&0xff for x in [i,i>>8,i>>16,i>>24]]))

def fromLittleEndianDWORD(s):
    return ord(s[0]) + (ord(s[1])<<8) + (ord(s[2])<<16) + (ord(s[3])<<24)

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Well, O.K. I'll
                                  at               compromise with my
                               visi.com            principles because of
                                                   EXISTENTIAL DESPAIR!


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Fri Aug  6 16:31:22 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 16:31:22 -0400
Subject: @decorators
References: <d22692a3.0408052234.7230fd74@posting.google.com>
	<roy-B53A92.08194306082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<10h73e5kh1et536@news.supernews.com> <4113e5be@nntp.zianet.com>
Message-ID: <10h7qlg5adbfj86@news.supernews.com>

"Mark Bottjer" <mark_bottjer at hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4113e5be at nntp.zianet.com...
> John Roth wrote:
> > All of the existing packages (at least to my knowledge) use
> > descriptors to wrap the necessary functions. They could be
> > very easily reimplemented in terms of the decorator syntax.
> > However, the decorator syntax brings no new functionality
> > to the table; it's simply syntactic sugar for already existing
> > functionality.
>
> Exactly. What's more, I don't think that decorators are really the ideal
> way to express DBC, either. For one thing, pre and post conditions often
> want access to at least the argument list, and often to the internal
> variables of the definition. I don't think that this will be possible
> with the decorators as proposed, since they are outside the scope of the
> function.

Since I wrote that, I managed to read the new, improved
and rewritten PEP, and discovered that the new syntax
doesn't allow parameters. So it can't be used as a replacement
for the property() built-in function, and it therefore also can't
be used for the DBC functionality. As delivered, it's strictly
a replacement for the classmethod and staticmethod
builtin functions (and any other module or builtins that
take one parameter, of course.)

Guido's stated reasoning was that he had "a bad feeling"
about allowing more general expressions. So do I.
>From what people are saying that's substantive (rather
than syntactic) I think that there are a number of very
different desires on the table, and it's not at all clear
either what they are or how they combine.

> Don't forget: if we make this too painful for the BDFL, he might just
> drop the whole idea and tell us to live with what we've got. :)

He's been through it before. Remember PEP 308?

John Roth
>
>    -- Mark




From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Aug 14 01:35:32 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 01:35:32 -0400
Subject: Flython
References: <slrnchq8lg.q3d.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
Message-ID: <cfk8b5$gcn$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Dave Benjamin" <ramen at lackingtalent.com> wrote in message
news:slrnchq8lg.q3d.ramen at lackingtalent.com...
> I just want to say, for the record, that if anyone can successfully build
a
> Python compiler that can produce Flash bytecode,

Knowing nothing about Flash bytecode, but knowing a bit about other Python
to X projects, I wonder whether it might be more immediately feasible to
either translate Python bytecode or generate Flash bytecode with an AST
tree walker.

tjr





From nospam at nowhere.hu  Sat Aug  7 19:21:31 2004
From: nospam at nowhere.hu (Miklós)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 01:21:31 +0200
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu> <cf3b56$gt6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>
	<cf3cvt$d3i$1@namru.matavnet.hu>
	<rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <cf3o7b$dd6$1@namru.matavnet.hu>


"A.M. Kuchling" <amk at amk.ca> wrote in message
news:rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw at speakeasy.net...
>
> Free software projects are run by the people who actually contribute code.
> If sorted() and reversed() were added, it's because Raymond Hettinger
> actually wrote code to implement them, and GvR didn't dislike them.  If
> people who want decorators are willing to expend effort to implement them,
> test them, conform to the coding standard, then they can be considered for
> inclusion.  So, if you want to see the GIL fixed, or performance
> improvements made, you have to work on these problems.
>
> --amk

So do you say "them and us", Python developers vs. users?
I've always had the "we all"-feeling. Maybe that's over.
I neither have the technical knowledge or the slightest inclination to wade
through tons of C codes,
I've been using Python because it's simple, clean and still very powerful.
I am unhappy to see that Python becomes cryptic, complex but more powerful.

Cheers,
  Mikl?s







From tim.peters at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 13:57:15 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:57:15 -0400
Subject: 100 % portable ?
In-Reply-To: <slrncikbc9.251.davecook@localhost.localdomain>
References: <rp_Vc.221989$xO.10939509@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<sl1nv1-7jm.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com> <2otm5mFed44hU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<slrncikbc9.251.davecook@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1f7befae0408231057a376ac6@mail.gmail.com>

[Bernd Kaiser]
>> You can use os.environ["HOME"], this will return the user's home dir.
 
[Dave Cook]
> Doesn't work in win9x AFAIK.  I do notice that some people are
> starting to require XP for their apps.

HOME isn't defined on my vanilla XP box.  HOMEDRIVE and HOMEPATH are, though.


From insert at spam.here  Wed Aug 11 17:16:54 2004
From: insert at spam.here (Doug Holton)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:16:54 -0500
Subject: The winner of the Python Decorator Poll is...
Message-ID: <Ue-dnX0CBNhaEYfcRVn-ig@comcast.com>

George W Bush, as certified by Florida's election commission.


Which decorator syntax do you like the most? See 
http://wiki.wxpython.org/index.cgi/PythonDecoratorsPoll
A. @classmethod def foo(): (82) 	14% 	
C1. def foo() [classmethod]: (235) 	41% 	
E1. def foo(): @classmethod (260) 	45% 	

Total Votes: 577

People are about 6 to 1 against having the decorators come before the 
"def" keyword.


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Mon Aug  9 19:52:12 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 23:52:12 GMT
Subject: Purely emotional perspective
References: <10hf3oaltbo7o74@corp.supernews.com>
	<AYSdnQ2xPrfFPYrcRVn-iA@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1400.1092070428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<XqSdnTW-4KvRIIrcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
	<pan.2004.08.09.21.20.59.953540@hotmail.com>
	<10hg1hg1pidqs96@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <vk2gh0t3u19bc7e3gqvkgieho2hdppc44e@4ax.com>

>
>I'm particularly worried about the proposals of using this as metadata 
>for things like author -- that seems to be begging for almost every 
>function to use half a dozen or more decorators (accepts, returns, 
>author, design date, last revision date, etc., etc.) which will (IMO) 
>seriously degrade code readability.  (This syntax is okay for one or two 
>decorators, but more than that quickly becomes obfuscatory.)

But isn't that so of any of the alternative syntaxes.  Looks to me as
if it is." Looks" as in "that is what my eyes tell me".

Only more restriction on the use of decorators - which doesn't seem to
be in the spirit of what decorators are about -or more support outside
of the @decorator framework for the common cases mitigates this issue.

Guido made the point today that at some point Python will have
optional static typing, and at that point a class of anticipated
common use cases for @decorator will be obsoleted.  But that some
point is Python3000, which is anybodies guess when.

Perhaps Python is a bit pre-pubescent. and will need to endure a few
ugly years - as many of us ourselves did.

I, for one, turned out beautiful in the end.

Art


From ben at benlast.com  Fri Aug 20 07:07:18 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:07:18 +0100
Subject: Rita Sue and Bob too
In-Reply-To: <4125D415.7040403@engcorp.com>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPEEKACEAA.ben@benlast.com>

> From: Peter Hansen [mailto:peter at engcorp.com]
> Actually, that wasn't quite me who wrote those words... I merely
> quoted them from the OP.
Oops - my apologies.

> (Ben, I don't think you need to post to both the python-list _and_
> the comp.lang.python newsgroup: they mirror each other already!)
Hmmm - I wasn't aware that I was.  I'm posting (and reading) via the
python-list mailing list.  I don't do USENET at all...

b



From jwkenne at attglobal.net  Tue Aug 31 10:26:03 2004
From: jwkenne at attglobal.net (John W. Kennedy)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:26:03 GMT
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
In-Reply-To: <slrncj8m5n.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4PGdnfsOfdDPi63cRVn-tA@speakeasy.net>
	<slrncj1745.t5q.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<41337FC9.8070902@hotmail.com>
	<slrncj7hhh.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<p7v7j0plcfbden593l1irfprmfkp4d3k51@4ax.com>
	<slrncj8m5n.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
Message-ID: <%T%Yc.29567$Es2.11957889@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Andre Majorel wrote:
> On 2004-08-31, Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis at SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
> 
>>On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 01:12:55 +0000 (UTC) in alt.folklore.computers,
>>Andre Majorel <amajorel at teezer.fr> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On 2004-08-30, Antony Sequeira <usemyfullname at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>Windows (MS) is not 'Unixism'?
>>>
>>>If by unixism, you mean any operating system that has a
>>>hierarchical filesystem and byte stream files, yes. But that
>>>would include quite a few other non-Unix operating systems,
>>>including Mac OS 9, Prologue and probably everything else this
>>>side of CP/M (DOS 1.x shall be deemed to be CP/M).
>>
>>DOS 2.x+ shall be deemed to be CP/M+! 
> 
> 
> Wasn't it in version 2 that they added directories and
> Unix-style file handles ?

Yes, and also a single-process pipe emulator.  Ever since 2.0, MS has 
been trying to turn MS-DOS (later, Windows) into a Unix clone.

-- 
John W. Kennedy
"...when you're trying to build a house of cards, the last thing you 
should do is blow hard and wave your hands like a madman."
   --  Rupert Goodwins


From evan at 4-am.com  Mon Aug 23 13:45:26 2004
From: evan at 4-am.com (Evan Simpson)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:45:26 -0500
Subject: clear content of 'printed'
In-Reply-To: <cga6gd$17qo$1@news.uni-koblenz.de>
References: <cga6gd$17qo$1@news.uni-koblenz.de>
Message-ID: <412A2D36.7040904@4-am.com>

Christian Otteneuer wrote:
> I have the following problem:
> I want to write a python script, that writes text into files. The text is 
> being "collected" in a for-loop, the code looks like this:
> 
> for i in range(len(myList)):
>     id = myList[i]
>     print "some text"
>     container.writeToFile(id, printed)
[...]
> Is there a possibility to do clear the content of 'printed' in python?

This question properly belongs in one of the Zope lists, since the 
regular Python folks have no idea what you're talking about.  Thank 
goodness I spotted you, or wackiness would ensue ;-)

"printed" is a magic variable implemented by the Script machinery, and 
is read-only.  You need to drop print and use plain strings:

for i in range(len(myList)):
     id = myList[i]
     txt = "some text"
     container.writeToFile(id, txt)

Cheers,

Evan @ 4-am



From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Wed Aug  4 22:58:24 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Thu,  5 Aug 2004 12:58:24 +1000
Subject: cgi script headers - help
In-Reply-To: <4111A0EB.6060609@fielden.com.au>
References: <1091672967.41119b8746b79@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
	<4111A0EB.6060609@fielden.com.au>
Message-ID: <1091674704.4111a25085adc@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

nope that doesn't make a difference.

php does it easily through header(), java does it through addHeader, why or
how does Python do it?


--
Ajay Brar,
CS Honours 2004
Smart Internet Technology Research Group


Quoting Rowdy <david at fielden.com.au>:

> Ajay wrote:
>
> > hi!
> >
> > i am generating a file on the fly and making a user download it.
> > print "Content-Type: application/model\n\n"
> > print "Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=modeldef3\n"
> > print str
> >
> > i set the Content-Disposition to force a download dialog box and also
> give
> > the file a name.
> > however when i view the headers sent by my script, i have only
> > HTTP/1.1 200 OK
> > Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 02:26:48 GMT
> > Server: Apache/1.3.19 (Unix)
> > Connection: close
> > Content-Type: application/model
> >
> > why isn't the Content-Disposition header coming up?
> >
> > thanks
> >
> > cheers
> >
> > --
> > Ajay Brar,
> > CS Honours 2004
> > Smart Internet Technology Research Group
>
> One guess would be the double \n at the end of the Content-Type line -
> try removing one and see if that works.
>
> Rowdy
>
>


----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From rynt at 9yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 10:07:43 2004
From: rynt at 9yahoo.com (R Baumann)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 07:07:43 -0700
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <HvadnUsZ7IAwc7DcRVn-sQ@megapath.net>


"Xah Lee" <xah at xahlee.org> wrote in message
news:7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a at posting.google.com...
> Larry Wall and Cults
> (Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
> 200012
>
<BIG SNIP>

In this context --- This is the STUPIDEST thing I've ever heard.  What a
maroon!  What a Trollup!

RB




From noone at here.com  Mon Aug 16 10:54:14 2004
From: noone at here.com (M. Clift)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:54:14 +0100
Subject: random / lists
References: <cfl5d1$f8p$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<zEDTc.210024$OB3.89400@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
	<cformj$vso$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> <2obuvjF8q553U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <cfqhp6$9i3$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>

Hi Russell,

That looks really good. It would seem to allow for a lot of control. Yet
another example for me to learn from! As someone new to programming, I'm
only just starting to realise that in code there is no one answer to a
problem.

Thanks,

Malcolm




From adurdin at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 00:09:30 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:09:30 +1000
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <tuydneHfMf8L8bTcRVn-sQ@powergate.ca>
References: <mailman.2166.1093215326.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<tuydneHfMf8L8bTcRVn-sQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a04082221092ad0fa45@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 00:05:35 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> 
> If there is someone motivated enough to implement C1, I
> suggest that it isn't too late.  If Guido is presented
> with J2 with an implementation, but knows that C1 was
> supported strongly as well and has an implementation
> imminent, I'm guessing it would lead him to consider
> @pie, J2, and C1 all together on their merits (in his
> view) and make a decision, perhaps a pending decision
> if he then favours C1.

C1 was the original proposal; I understood that Guido had written an
implementation some time ago. The python-dev archives might be useful
in locating it.


From chotty at freenet.de  Tue Aug 24 12:04:52 2004
From: chotty at freenet.de (Christian Otteneuer)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:04:52 +0200
Subject: clear content of 'printed'
References: <cga6gd$17qo$1@news.uni-koblenz.de>
	<mailman.2229.1093283180.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgfova$14ft$1@news.uni-koblenz.de>

"Evan Simpson" wrote:

> "printed" is a magic variable implemented by the Script machinery, and is 
> read-only.  You need to drop print and use plain strings:
>
> for i in range(len(myList)):
>     id = myList[i]
>     txt = "some text"
>     container.writeToFile(id, txt)


Thanks! That's the way I'll do it... 




From David.Flory at TheFlorys.org  Mon Aug 16 12:40:52 2004
From: David.Flory at TheFlorys.org (David Flory)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:40:52 -0400
Subject: Help with reading WinXP registry
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAA48bIjzpX0xGAzADAT0HvxsKAAAAQAAAAVqfhDgP4E0qTmcIwnJq3yQEAAAAA@TheFlorys.org>

I am trying to write a short program to list the keys and values in a
WinXP registry key.  I have tried to use pyRegistry and get an error.
My test code is:

Import pyRegistry
baseKey = "HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Themes"
basereg = pyRegistry.open(baseKey) 
print basereg.getKeyNames()

Which gives the error:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "D:\bin\test_pyRegistry.py", line 5, in ?
    print basereg.getKeyNames()
AttributeError: getKeyNames

What am I doing wrong?  Using basereg.getValueNames() works fine.

Is there a better way to access the registry in a Win32 system?

Tia, David



From daniel at syrinx.net  Fri Aug 13 16:22:53 2004
From: daniel at syrinx.net (Daniel Ellison)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:22:53 -0400
Subject: Flython
In-Reply-To: <slrnchq8lg.q3d.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
References: <slrnchq8lg.q3d.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
Message-ID: <2o4m5pF6apnoU3@uni-berlin.de>

Dave Benjamin wrote:

> I just want to say, for the record, that if anyone can successfully build a
> Python compiler that can produce Flash bytecode, I will personally allow
> you to throw *any number of pies* in my face, in as public of a ceremony as
> you desire. Furthermore, I will match you 50/50 in the cost of the pies.
> 
> Thank you,
> Dave
> 

Wow, that's one heavy challenge! Either Dave thinks it just can't be 
done, or he really, /really/ wants this compiler.

Dan


From rnd at onego.ru  Thu Aug 12 14:08:32 2004
From: rnd at onego.ru (Roman Suzi)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:08:32 +0400 (MSD)
Subject: zero new keyword decorator
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408122145170.3991@rnd.onego.ru>


After a week of reading decorator discussion my mind slowly
turnes in the opposite direction: to find which syntaxes are absolutely
unwanted.

It seems that people like @ more than lambda, so this will never be in Python:

def fun:
   dec1; dec2; dec3
lambda x, y:
   """ docs """
   body


Also our decorator discussion reminds me of Forth

BUILD>

DOES>

words. That is, decorators and arglist are after-build and
"does" part - after the ":".

Why not?


build fun(arg1, arg2):
  decor1; decor2
  decor3
def:
  body
else:
  (if everything went right)

Or, if we want to catch errors in decorators, a special version:


try def fun(arg1, arg2):
  decor1; decor2
  decor3
def:
  body
except:
  (if everything went wrong)
finally:
  (anyway do this)


Or, if we want to say function is needed for decorators and not the other
way around:

for:
  decor1
  decor2
def fun(x, y):
  body


What about

exec:
  decor1
  decor2
def fun(x, y):
  body


Maybe this way we could get rid of '@':

decor1, decor2(a), decor3 for
def fun(x, y):
  body



Sincerely yours, Roman Suzi
-- 
rnd at onego.ru =\= My AI powered by GNU/Linux RedHat 7.3


From paul at boddie.org.uk  Thu Aug 19 05:23:17 2004
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 02:23:17 -0700
Subject: favorite python web development tool?
References: <10i4nttktcvltdd@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <5339b60d.0408190123.2a8adb87@posting.google.com>

mike <ng01.spamguard at icewater.org> wrote in message news:<10i4nttktcvltdd at corp.supernews.com>...
> hi all -
> 
> 
> i'm fairly new to python, coming from a java servlet / velocity template 
> background.  i'm looking for a good python web development tool, and 
> hope to find some suggestions here.

Well, <insert screaming advocacy here>. Alternatively, you could take
a look at the WebProgramming section [1] of the PythonInfo Wiki [2].
And if other respondents contributed their opinions to that resource,
we wouldn't necessarily have the situation where people regard that
resource as confusing whilst giving a parade of the frameworks every
time someone asks how to do CGI with Python.

> given my background, webware+cheetah feels comfortingly familiar, and 
> i'm leaning toward it.  before i dive in, though, i'm wondering what you 
> experienced users think about it, compared to the other tools that are 
> out there.  eg, does the python environment have strengths that are 
> better exploited with something other than a servlet-like model?

I've heard that Webware plus Cheetah is a fairly equivalent
combination to Java Servlet API plus Velocity, at least in style. I
think it's widely accepted that if you're doing content management,
you might be better served with something like Zope or a derivative
such as Plone.

If you look at the OriginalWebProgrammingClassification [3] on the
Wiki, you'll get a better impression of what is available, in my
opinion. That classification, combined with the
PresentationTechnologies [4] page (now mysteriously delinked in some
"tidying up" activity), is more concise and doesn't try and blind you
with pseudo-science in the way that the main classification does:
"Variable Insertion-Replacement Templating Applications
(Pre-processors)" anyone?

Paul

[1] http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/WebProgramming
[2] http://www.python.org/moin/FrontPage
[3] http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/OriginalWebProgrammingClassification
[4] http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/PresentationTechnologies


From peter at engcorp.com  Sun Aug 22 08:38:46 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 08:38:46 -0400
Subject: newsgroup for embeded/extend python ?
In-Reply-To: <m3brh2kbnv.fsf@sina.com.cn>
References: <m3brh2kbnv.fsf@sina.com.cn>
Message-ID: <p4qdnbjvwYXBDrXcRVn-tA@powergate.ca>

skull wrote:

> I wanna know is there any newsgoup(or forums through www) 
> specially for embeded/extend python?

There is not enough traffic here on that topic to warrant a
separate newsgroup yet, so here is the best place to post...

-Peter


From baggott2 at llnl.gov  Tue Aug  3 22:13:23 2004
From: baggott2 at llnl.gov (Daniel Baggott)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 19:13:23 -0700
Subject: MySQLdb 'server not initialized'
Message-ID: <1091585603.5327.89.camel@goingto.llnl.gov>

Hi,

I'm seeking assistance in troubleshooting connecting to MySQL (4.0.20)
using Python (2.3.4) and MySQLdb (1.0.0).  When I attempt to make a
connection, I get the following exception:
   _mysql_exceptions.InternalError: (-1, 'server not initialized')

The database is definitely running as I can connect to it using the
mysql client.  Also, when I attempt to connect to MySQL from within
Python, I don't see any messages in the MySQL logs (ie the .log and .err
files in /usr/local/mysql/data/).

Does anyone have any advice or suggestions as to how to figure out
what's going wrong?  Also, if there's a better forum for posting this
question, please point me in the right direction.

Thanks!

Dan


[baggott2 at goingto baggott2]$ python
Python 2.3.4 (#1, Jul 26 2004, 15:14:49)
[GCC 3.2.3 20030502 (Red Hat Linux 3.2.3-34)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import MySQLdb
>>> c =
MySQLdb.connect(host='localhost',user='gbd',passwd='xxxxxxx',db='zinc')
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/site-packages/MySQLdb/__init__.py",
line 64, in Connect
    return apply(Connection, args, kwargs)
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/site-packages/MySQLdb/connections.py",
line 116, in __init__
    self._make_connection(args, kwargs2)
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/site-packages/MySQLdb/connections.py",
line 41, in _make_connection
    apply(super(ConnectionBase, self).__init__, args, kwargs)
_mysql_exceptions.InternalError: (-1, 'server not initialized')
>>>


[baggott2 at goingto baggott2]$ mysql -h localhost -u gbd -p
Enter password:
Welcome to the MySQL monitor.  Commands end with ; or \g.
Your MySQL connection id is 9 to server version: 4.0.20-standard-log
 
Type 'help;' or '\h' for help. Type '\c' to clear the buffer.
 
mysql> show databases;
+----------+
| Database |
+----------+
| zinc     |
+----------+
1 row in set (0.00 sec)
 
mysql> Bye
[baggott2 at goingto baggott2]$




From rmkrauter at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 18 00:49:39 2004
From: rmkrauter at yahoo.com (Rich Krauter)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 00:49:39 -0400
Subject: Piping stdout to Python callable
In-Reply-To: <WZxUc.25125$nx2.16316@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <bYbUc.24077$nx2.16696@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>	<slrnci3t3q.k5.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<WZxUc.25125$nx2.16316@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4122DFE3.7060407@yahoo.com>

Edward Diener wrote:
> Antoon Pardon wrote:
> 
>>Op 2004-08-17, Edward Diener schreef <eldiener at earthlink.net>:
>>
>>>From within a function in my own module I need to take the output
>>>from a Python module "A", which is sending data to stdout and which
>>>can not be changed and which I need to invoke as a top-level module,
>>>and pipe it into another function in my own module so that I can
>>>read it from stdin. Is there an easy way to do this ? The only way I
>>>can presently think to do this is through "system python A.py |
>>>python MyOwnModule.py", which seems a bit laborious having to invoke
>>>python.exe itself twice. Any other solution would be most welcome.
>>
>>What do you mean when you say you need to invoke it as a top-level
>>module?  Do you mean you can't import it at all or that importing it
>>will startup the process of generating output immediatly?
> 
> 
> I mean that it has a "if __name__ == '__main__' line and I need to trigger
> it by calling 'python A.py'.
> 
> 
>>What bothers you with twice invoking the interpreter?
> 
> 
> Nothing practically. Just seems inelegant.
> 
> 
>>In these days
>>a program that is invoked multiples times will generally be only
>>loaded once in memory.
> 
> 
> Shared libraries may be loaded once in memory but python.exe itself gets
> reloaded each time.
> 
> 
>>Are threads an acceptable alternative? Does your MyOwnModule.py needs
>>to write to stdout?
> 
> 
> Threads are acceptable. MyOwnModule.py can do anything, depending on
> parameters, but the idea is that a certain parameter tells it to read from
> stdin on the other end of the pipe.
> 
> I have implemented this via "os.system("python A.py | python MyOwnModule.py
> parameters") and it works fine. I thought there might be a better, more
> elegant way but since the above works without any problem I will stick to it
> unless you can suggest anything better. BTW "A.py" can be any number of
> types of modules which must be invoked by python.exe and writes it's results
> to stdout. I am telling you this lest you suggest that I somehow import and
> parse A.py in order to call directly into it rather than having python.exe
> invoke it. While that might be possible, it would be a real programming
> PITA.
> 
> 

You could do something like this:

$ cat A.py
def test(arg):
     for i in range(1,5):
         print arg*i

$ cat B.py
import A
import sys
import StringIO

sys.stdout = StringIO.StringIO()
A.test(5)
fileobj,sys.stdout = sys.stdout,sys.__stdout__

fileobj.seek(0)
for line in fileobj:
     print line.strip()


Worth the effort to change your code? Probably not. Kinda neat, though.

Rich


From Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU  Thu Aug 19 17:31:32 2004
From: Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU (Michael J. Fromberger)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:31:32 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
References: <20040817181725194-0400@braeburn.themorgue.org>
	<10i9msuatli5p84@news.supernews.com>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-D24476.14010119082004@localhost>
	<10ia3aa8j6tbma5@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <Michael.J.Fromberger-AE7E18.17313219082004@localhost>

In article <10ia3aa8j6tbma5 at news.supernews.com>,
 "John Roth" <newsgroups at jhrothjr.com> wrote:

> "Michael J. Fromberger" <Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU> wrote
> in message news:Michael.J.Fromberger-D24476.14010119082004 at localhost...
> > In article <10i9msuatli5p84 at news.supernews.com>,
> >  "John Roth" <newsgroups at jhrothjr.com> wrote:
> >
> > > In other words, forget the use cases.  They're irrelevant.
> >
> > On this point, I strongly disagree.  If you don't have a use case, there
> > is no point whatsoever in arguing about the syntax of a feature.
> 
> There is a use case. If you go back and read the original
> post I was replying to, it contains the sentence:
> 
> [begin quote]
> I guess others had bigger plans for my proposal that I had planned.  It
> has turned into the "solution" to many problems: type checking (both
> arguments and returned values), metaclasses, metadata, interfaces,
> function attributes, etc.).
> [end quote]

Ah, I see.  I misunderstood your intent.  My apologies.

Nevertheless, I think it's clear the Python community at large ought to 
have a clearer idea of exactly what the use cases ARE (and, more 
importantly, what they're not) before deciding on a syntax.  It's not 
clear to me that there's consensus on purpose yet (as witness the wildly 
divergent ideas that have accumulated on the wiki, comp.lang.python, and 
python-dev).

Cheers,
-M

-- 
Michael J. Fromberger             | Lecturer, Dept. of Computer Science
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~sting/  | Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 10 17:30:14 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:30:14 -0400
Subject: measuring 1/100th seconds, what function?
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.10.21.16.01.728029@yahoo.com>
References: <pan.2004.08.10.21.16.01.728029@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <IpKdnWmNFKf1o4TcRVn-gg@powergate.ca>

Jonas K?lker wrote:

> I'm doing a Rubik's Cube timer, so I need a function to measure 100ths of
> a second. I've browsed through the library reference of python.org, but I
> didn't find anything that struck me as 'the perfect fit'. Either it was
> system dependent, or it was too grainy (lo-res), or... something else.

It usually helps to specify what you looked at, and perhaps why you
didn't think it was acceptable, to avoid us retracing your steps...

> so, I need a function which satisfies (in order of importance):
> 
> 1. It can be used to measure time in the range of up to approximately 1
> minute with an accuracy down to 100th-seconds (that's 60000~65536
> different values). Better accuracy is a bonus, longer time-frame is a
> bigger bonus.
> 
> 2. it must run on any version of windows upon which python 2.4 can run

These two constraints cannot be met simultaneously, I believe.
Windows98 does not provide adequate resolution in the timer.

If you are willing to forego Win98 and use only the real Windows OSes,
then I think you get roughly (?) 10ms resolution already with
time.time().  Linux probably gives 1ms resolution or better in pretty
much all cases with time.time().

-Peter


From bart_nessux at hotmail.com  Wed Aug  4 10:13:19 2004
From: bart_nessux at hotmail.com (Bart Nessux)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 10:13:19 -0400
Subject: Perl's Crypt::PasswdMD5
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1124.1091627818.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <ceqoul$ept$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
	<mailman.1124.1091627818.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ceqqtv$hm6$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>

Nicolas ?vrard wrote:
> * Bart Nessux  [15:39 04/08/04 CEST]:
> 
>> Does Python have anything similar to Perl's Crypt::PasswdMD5???
>>
>> I read about the crypt module... but it only does DES. Any plans to 
>> add md5 or other digests to it in the future?
> 
> 
> http://www.python.org/doc/current/lib/module-md5.html
> 
> Try to be lucky with google using this search string : "python md5"

That's not comparable to Crypt::PasswdMD5



From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Aug 20 16:11:49 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 16:11:49 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <cg5lu5$lbc$1@panix3.panix.com>

Vote: C1 C1 C1
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From howard.stearns at charter.net  Fri Aug  6 20:18:57 2004
From: howard.stearns at charter.net (Howard Stearns)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 19:18:57 -0500
Subject: How do you feel ?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.940.1087222870.6949.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.940.1087222870.6949.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <41141FF1.2030606@charter.net>

I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Lisp programmer by history, but not for pay these 
days. I'm trying Python for a nights-and-weekends project. And every time 
I use it, I tell my wife (a technically savy non-programmer) that "hey, 
this Python stuff really isn't bad. It's.... well..., pretty good."

Of course, the first thing I did was re-implement generic functions.  But 
other than that, I'm must using the libraries. They're good. I'm having 
fun again!

The one thing I've found annoying is that I haven't yet discovered how to 
do whatever I want in lambda expressions. I have top-level assignments 
where I'd like create a function to use as the the value being assigned. I 
don't know how to define a named function in a top-level assignment, and a 
lambda won't allow me to use 'try' and other statements -- just 
expressions. Or am I looking at things wrong?

Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> A bit off topic.
> 
> I just wondered what was your feeling when you were coding with Python. 
> I have beebn coding with different languages and the only that has given 
> me the will to invent or to be creative has been Python. Python allows 
> me not to focus on the complexity of the language itself.
> 
> Of course, from time to time, I find something that is not clear to me 
> but indeed after a couple of research you find the information you were 
> looking for.
> 
> I love that language and above all, I love using it.
> 
> Sorry for this little spam but it is always good to acknowledge good 
> things and not only complaining when it doesn't work.
> 
> Thanks the Python team.
> - Sylvain
> 
> 



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 07:24:07 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:24:07 +1000
Subject: [PATCH] RE: J2 decorator grammar
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408221104090.22879-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408221104090.22879-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082204241d23f111@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:05:35 +0100 (BST), Michael Sparks
<zathras at thwackety.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sun, 22 Aug 2004, Anthony Baxter wrote:
> > On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 01:41:58 +0100 (BST), Michael Sparks wrote
> > > The patch can be found here:
> > >    * http://thwackety.com/decorator_syntax_J2.patch
> >
> > Good to see. There's a few more bits than this that need to be
> > done, though - see http://www.python.org/sf/979728 for the original
> > @decorator patch, this should show you what else needs to be
> > changed.
> 
> Many thanks for the pointer. I'll try and make sure I cover all the bases,
> but I suspect I'll miss something, but I'll try not to :)

Well, in the comments for that patch, I listed all of the files changed by
the @syntax - that at least gives you a 'to-do list' to work through. Once
you've got what you think is the complete set, create a patch and post it
to SF.


From bokr at oz.net  Sun Aug  1 14:06:59 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 1 Aug 2004 18:06:59 GMT
Subject: transforming a list into a string
References: <pan.2004.07.31.12.27.23.547000@hotmail.com>
	<roy-982174.13075831072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<cegqdu$2fb$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<mailman.1020.1091310303.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-FDE83B.19595731072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1022.1091319366.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-C8B243.20435231072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1023.1091322043.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cejbg3$59s$0@216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

On Sun, 1 Aug 2004 11:00:32 +1000, Andrew Bennetts <andrew-pythonlist at puzzling.org> wrote:

>On Sat, Jul 31, 2004 at 08:43:52PM -0400, Roy Smith wrote:
>> Tim Peters <tim.peters at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Note that Peter Otten previously posted a lovely O(N)
>> > solution in this thread, although it may be too clever for some
>> > tastes:
>> > 
>> > >>> from itertools import izip
>> > >>> items = ['1','2','7','8','12','13']
>> > >>> it = iter(items)
>> > >>> ",".join(["{%s,%s}" % i for i in izip(it, it)])
>> > '{1,2},{7,8},{12,13}'
>> 
>> Personally, I'm not a big fan of clever one-liners.  They never seem 
>> like such a good idea 6 months from now when you're trying to figure out 
>> what you meant when you wrote it 6 months ago.
>
>It's a two-liner, not a one-liner (although it could be made into a
>one-liner with enough contortions...).
>
Assuming items definition doesn't count in the line count,

 >>> items = ['1','2','7','8','12','13']

then one line seems to do it, not that obscurely (depending on your glasses ;-)

 >>> ",".join(["{%s,%s}"%(n(),n()) for n in [iter(items).next] for i in xrange(0,len(items),2)])
 '{1,2},{7,8},{12,13}'

>The only other way I could see to expand this solution would be to write it
>as:
>     it = iter(items)
>     pairs = izip(it, it)
>     s = ",".join(["{%s,%s}" % i for i in pairs])
>
>I don't know if three-liners meet your threshold for verbosity ;)
>
>Well, you could write it as:
>
>    pairs = []
>    it = iter(items):
>    while True:
>         try:
>             pair = it.next(), it.next()
>         except StopIteration:
>             break
>         pairs.append(pair)
>    s = ",".join(["{%s,%s}" % i for i in pairs])
>              
>But at that point, the scaffolding is large enough that it obscures the
>purpose -- I definitely find this harder to read than the two-liner.
>
>I find Peter's original form easy to read -- if you understand how "izip(it,
>it)" works (which is a very simple and elegant way to iterate over (it[n],
>it[n+1]) pairs), the rest is very clear.
Agreed.

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From uj797 at victoria.tc.ca  Wed Aug 18 03:49:21 2004
From: uj797 at victoria.tc.ca (Arthur T. Murray)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 23:49:21 -0800
Subject: Mind.py
References: <mailman.1821.1092770952.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4122fbf1@news.victoria.tc.ca>

Roman Suzi <rnd at onego.ru> wrote on Tue, 17 Aug 2004:
> [...]
> New version (refactured) is available:
>
> http://python.onego.ru/mind/__init__.py
> http://python.onego.ru/mind/aLife.py
> http://python.onego.ru/mind/Security.py
> [...]

http://yaroslav.hopto.org/pubwiki/index.php/ai-python OT APTYPA!


From pink at odahoda.de  Tue Aug 24 13:53:10 2004
From: pink at odahoda.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:53:10 +0200
Subject: Overlapping tests
In-Reply-To: <8f6sv1-nj7.ln1@valpo.de>
References: <8f6sv1-nj7.ln1@valpo.de>
Message-ID: <cgfveh$op5$03$1@news.t-online.com>

Mathias Waack wrote:
> Hi, 
> 
> I have some time consuming tests which could (and should) run
> simultaneously. Is there a way to achieve this behavior without
> using (self-coded) threads? Unittest seems to be designed to run one
> test after another, but not to run much tests at the same time. 
> 
> The only way I can see so far is to start all tests during setUp()
> and wait for each test-job in a job specific test() method. 
If I understand you correctly, what you really want is one test that 
tests the simultaneous executing of multiple tasks - a slighty different 
formulation of your problem that suggest a totally different 
implementation ;)


From BruceWhoHKL at gawab.com  Wed Aug 18 21:59:30 2004
From: BruceWhoHKL at gawab.com (BruceKL WhoH)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:59:30 +0800
Subject: metaclass ???
Message-ID: <20040819015844.8B5F11E4003@bag.python.org>

Mike C. Fletcher:

	Thanks,I have downloaded your pdf and code. But I'm still confused.
    What I'm trying to do is :
    I want to make two class, they are just subtly different,for example

class A:
    def f(self):
        print 'a'
    ...#other codes

class B:
    def f(self):
        print 'b'
    ...#other codes

all other codes are identical,just f is different.
    So can I use meta-class here? Or I should do this by another way?

    BTW,your pdf is quite nice,how do you make it? Beamer,pdfscreen, or PPT ?

======= 2004-08-18 21:58:11 Mike C. Fletcher wrote: =======

>BruceKL WhoH wrote:
>
>>Hi,
>>     I have just read David Mertz's Metaclass programming in Python,but I'm still confused.
>>can someone show me an example to explain when metaclass is needed?
>>  
>>
>In large part this is the question that my PyCon presentation was trying
>to explore. If you're interested, you can find the presentation and
>sample code here:
>http://www.vrplumber.com/programming/
>
>>     I think metaclass can be treated as a class factory,but how to specify the class generated? For example:
>>  
>>
>See particularly the metainitialisation.py sample code for the
>presentation, which does approximately what I think you're trying to do
>with your example.
>
>HTH,
>Mike
>
>________________________________________________
>  Mike C. Fletcher
>  Designer, VR Plumber, Coder
>  http://www.vrplumber.com
>  http://blog.vrplumber.com
>
>-- 
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
			

????????BruceKL WhoH
????????BruceWhoHKL at gawab.com
??????????2004-08-19


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Mon Aug 23 13:00:39 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:00:39 GMT
Subject: __name__ becoming read-write?
References: <uutji0h87t24cb1nej03gdggs0hg6eno3l@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2205.1093275632.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<c94ki0dgh70ud7e1ok8sshlvg4pe96s4h8@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2211.1093279236.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <3b8ki0tlphodtt8ge8an274qp78ihp1i3n@4ax.com>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 02:28:09 +1000, Anthony Baxter
<anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:58:26 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
>> Of course I am curious as to why, and what would be involved, and
>> wrong,. with merging the local variable and the actual name for these
>> special syntax items.  It would seem to have merit on its own terms.
>> 
>> For example I had noticed to use string substition on a function doc I
>> needed to assign to __doc__ outside the function.
>
>How would you envisage this working? Look at the following code:
>
>def foo(arg):
>    __doc__ = "bingle!"
>    if arg < 0:
>        __doc__ = "bangle!"
>    if arg > 0:
>        __doc__ = "bongle!"
>
>Now, _before_ this code is run, what's foo.__doc__ supposed to be set
>to? Remember, at this point, the code has not been run. The local
>__doc__ has no value at this point.
>
>Special casing __doc__ (or __name__) so that assignments to a local
>like that inside a function assign magically to the function object is
>bad magic. It leads to confusion and poor coding. In general, inside a
>function, you don't have access to the function object itself[1]


I see the point.

But.. there is always a but.

I'm thinking now a special sytnax item in the __form__ at the top of
function that would:

1) put one on notice that the function is to be transformed (as in
"see below").

2) allow a name to be assigned to it, which will become the
transform's __name__.

Something in the general direction, I think, of where Paul Morrow's
instincts were going.

I like it.

And have no idea whether it is feasible.

Art


From mwh at python.net  Mon Aug 23 14:18:04 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 18:18:04 GMT
Subject: Finding a class' superclasses
References: <HBF.20040823wd70@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <m3hdqtiuqr.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Hallvard B Furuseth <h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no> writes:

> How do I find a class' immediate superclasses?
> That is, given
>   class A:       pass
>   class B(A):    pass
>   class C(A):    pass
>   class D(B, C): pass
> I want a function foo where foo(D) or foo(D()) returns (B, C).
> (Well, the order of the classes is not important.)

D.__bases__?

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  ... Windows proponents tell you that it will solve things that
  your Unix system people keep telling you are hard.  The Unix 
  people are right: they are hard, and Windows does not solve 
  them, ...                            -- Tim Bradshaw, comp.lang.lisp


From tdwdotnet at gmail.com  Mon Aug 30 17:08:42 2004
From: tdwdotnet at gmail.com (Tim Williams (gmail))
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 22:08:42 +0100
Subject: how to get size of email attachment
In-Reply-To: <63b5e209.0408301105.58b9207a@posting.google.com>
References: <63b5e209.0408301105.58b9207a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <9afea2ac040830140866f46714@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 Aug 2004 12:05:18 -0700, Joh <joh12005 at yahoo.fr> wrote:
> hello,
> 
> i'm looking for a way to get total size of an email (with its attached
> files) using library such as poplib, or ?
> 
> can someone help me or give me an url from where to start ?

thinking aloud and off the top of my head , you could try the email
module (python docs)

import email

msg = email.message_from_file(xxx) (or email.message_from_string(xxx) )

then something like 

for part in msg.walk():  
     length =  len(str(part))
     fname = part.get_filename()
or

if msg.is_multipart( ):
    temp_payload = msg.get_payload()
    for x in range(len(temp_payload)):
        print temp_payload[x].get_content_type()
        print temp_payload[x].get_filename()
        print len(str(temp_payload[x]))

Remember any size you get  will be the size of the attachment whilst
its encoded into a mime object,  which won't be the same as the size
of the file on disk.

I'm not sure the above will work,  but its in the right ball park,  If
you don't have any luck post back and I'll look into it next time I'm
in the office and have python docs easily to hand.


From hanser at club-internet.fr  Mon Aug 16 14:33:05 2004
From: hanser at club-internet.fr (Pierre Hanser)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:33:05 +0200
Subject: Python secure?
In-Reply-To: <4120c3b8$0$8079$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<411ffef6$0$65603$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<t1t5v1-316.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<4120c3b8$0$8079$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <4120fdcf$0$305$7a628cd7@news.club-internet.fr>

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2004-08-16, Roger Binns <rogerb at rogerbinns.com> wrote:
> 
>>Grant Edwards wrote:
>>
>>>I don't see how decompiling is a copyright violation.  If I buy
>>>a copy of a book, I'm pretty sure I can translate it into
>>>another language if I want to form my own use.
>>
>>They need to use what they decompile for it to be a copyright
>>violation.
> 
> 
> IANAL, but it looks like under Title 17, the act of creating a
> derived work is an infringement.  It doesn't say the derived
> work has to be used and/or distributed for it to be an
> infringement.
> 

some countries have such stupid regulations...


From frithiof.jensen at die_spammer_die.ericsson.com  Thu Aug  5 04:03:45 2004
From: frithiof.jensen at die_spammer_die.ericsson.com (Frithiof Andreas Jensen)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 10:03:45 +0200
Subject: DB beginner help
References: <slrnch3ms4.7mn.mordor@fly.srk.fer.hr>
	<cesp5u$sha$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>
Message-ID: <cespfr$so3$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>


"Frithiof Andreas Jensen" <frithiof.jensen at die_spammer_die.ericsson.com>
wrote in message news:cesp5u$sha$1 at newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se...

BTW, the 's in the query string are wrong.




From jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu  Thu Aug 26 22:39:06 2004
From: jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu (John Hunter)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 21:39:06 -0500
Subject: 3D geometry module?
In-Reply-To: <412e0951$0$6157$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> (Will McGugan's
	message of "Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:01:20 +0100")
References: <412e0951$0$6157$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>
Message-ID: <m2acwh8fud.fsf@mother.paradise.lost>

>>>>> "Will" == Will McGugan <news at NOwillmcguganSPAM.com> writes:

    Will> Hi, Is there a general purpose 3D geometry module for
    Will> Python? I would like to be able to read / write 3D models
    Will> and perform per vertex / per face operations on them.

    Will> Failing that, are there vector / matrix / quaternion classes
    Will> I can make use of?

VTK is absolutely astounding in depth, breadth and quality, and has a
full python wrapper.  For win32, the enthought edition of python has
VTK built in.

Can take years to wrap your head around, though, in my experience.
It's that big.

JDH


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 17 12:14:30 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 12:14:30 -0400
Subject: Mind.py
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1810.1092758412.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <41220b22@news.victoria.tc.ca>
	<mailman.1810.1092758412.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <U9udnZ7_B_16s7_cRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>

Roman Suzi wrote:

> rsvp = 1000
> 
...
>     time.sleep(rsvp/1000) # End of quasi-loop time-delay of rsvp-value milliseconds.

Latent bug... someone will decide during maintenance to
change that "rsvp" delay to, perhaps, a smaller value,
resulting in no delay at all...

-Peter


From mike.ayers at tumbleweed.com  Sun Aug 15 03:09:10 2004
From: mike.ayers at tumbleweed.com (Mike Ayers)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 07:09:10 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Raw IP packets on Linux
References: <loom.20040815T060144-272@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <loom.20040815T090213-935@post.gmane.org>

Mike Ayers <mike.ayers <at> tumbleweed.com> writes:

> What am I getting wrong here?   What address type does this socket expect?

After further review, I find that AF_PACKET wants addresses that contain the
interface and protocol number.  You can also specify an ethernet address, but it
will be ignored (in fact, you can only specify a subset of ethernet addresses,
as the address argument is parsed as 's').

Quick summary: socket( AF_PACKET, SOCK_DGRAM ) is useless.

Workaround: use socket( AF_PACKET, SOCK_RAW ) and create your own ethernet
headers, which (provided you're using true ethernet, which most of us are), is
just the 6 byte ethernet destination address followed by the 6 byte ethernet
source address (.i.e your own), followed by 0x0800 (IP) in two bytes.  Really
pretty simple if you're already using raw sockets, eh?


     HTH,

/|/|ike




From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug  9 14:07:07 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:07:07 -0400
Subject: Purely emotional perspective
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1400.1092070428.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <10hf3oaltbo7o74@corp.supernews.com>	<AYSdnQ2xPrfFPYrcRVn-iA@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1400.1092070428.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <XqSdnTW-4KvRIIrcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>

Heiko Wundram wrote:

> Am Montag, 9. August 2004 18:03 schrieb Peter Hansen:
> 
>>After a while, when everyone is used to decorators, it won't
>>be important to have them way out front like that, and they
>>could just as well, and perhaps more readably (at that time),
>>be moved to after the def.
> 
> I don't think this is true... Decorators are not simply "meta-data" that is 
> attached to a function, they change the functions behaviour. As such, they 
> create a different function than the one which is declared.
> 
> Consider:
> class x(object):
> 	def y(some,arg):
> 		@ somedecorator
> 		<blah>
> 
> Versus:
> 
> class x(object):
> 	@ somedecorator
> 	def y(some,arg):
> 		<blah>
> 
> Now, say you folded out the body of x with some form of decent editor. In the 
> first example, @somedecorator disappears, as it is part of the function body, 

Actually, the first example could just as well have been this:

def y(some, arg)
     @ somedecorator
     :
     <blah>

But I can just hear the arguments against that, much as I like it.

> in the second example, it stays in (and I wouldn't want an editor to fold out
> the decorating statements for a function, and it would be kind'a hard to have
> a sensible way for the editor to display the first few lines decorating the 
> function inside the function body while the function is folded out).

I *would* like decorators to be folded, I think, if I were in the habit
of using folding editors.  But I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be hard to
avoid folding @ lines that immediately follow the :, or for that matter
that come just before it.  The real issue here (not that it bothers me)
is that a lot of editors are probably tied to the idea that the : comes
right after the argument list or something, so they probably would have
to be redone to handle pre-colon decorators.

> The docstring of a function actually is only meta-data (in my taste), and thus 
> should remain inside the function definition.

This argument makes no sense to me.  Why should any meta-data be inside
the function body?  There should probably be one place where all
meta-data is defined, and it should be used consistently for everything,
docstrings included.  (The pie-syntaxians are heading that way, it
seems.)

> When and how decorators do something to the method is unimportant to my taste 
> (they are executed after the function definition has been executed), but 
> visibly seeing that the decorator is being applied to the function is much 
> easier for the second syntax.

To tell the truth, I think I prefer the current approach, where the
function is clearly, explicitly decorated *after* it has been defined,
and no new syntax is required.

Python is clearly on a huge evolutionary surge and conservative views
on the matter are definitely not winning out right now.  And the usual
argument (submit a patch!) doesn't really work when those who want to
avoid many changes try it... I've been *not* submitting a patch on
lots of changes to Python, but somehow it's never been accepted. ;-)

-Peter


From artur_spruce at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  6 04:39:43 2004
From: artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 01:39:43 -0700
Subject: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was Decorator syntax)
References: <6LWdnZCpvI7Ico_cRVn-hw@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <b840abf4.0408060039.1d9bd3ac@posting.google.com>

Istvan Albert <ialbert at mailblocks.com> wrote in message news:<6LWdnZCpvI7Ico_cRVn-hw at giganews.com>...
> Paul McGuire wrote:
> 
>  > Please reconsider the "def f() [classmethod]:" construct.  Instead of
>  > invoking a special punctuation character, it uses context and placement,
>  > with familiar old []'s, to infuse the declaration of a function with special
>  > characteristics.  If this causes def lines to run longer than one line,
>  > perhaps the same rule that allows an unmatched "(" to carry over multiple
>  > lines without requiring "\" continuation markers could be used for unmatched
>  > "["s, as in:
>  >
>  > def f() [ staticmethod,
>  >     synchronized,
>  >     alphabetized,
>  >     supersized,
>  >     returns('d') ]:
> 
> Well said!
> <snip>
> I have the feeling that this always was and still is
> the favorite.

By the way, does anybody remember the first proposed syntax?

def f() as staticmethod, synchronized, alphabetized, \
           supersized, returns('d'):
    pass

Nowadays I'm more in favor of the list syntax, since in the future it
could be dynamized by allowing list comprehension. Not that you can't
achieve the same goal with static decorator list, using a decorator
that iterates over that dynamic list of decorators that you want.

Waking-up-the-dead-ly yours,

AdSR


From Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU  Fri Aug 20 09:41:41 2004
From: Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU (Michael J. Fromberger)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:41:41 -0400
Subject: Rita Sue and Bob too
References: <cg3ksb$bg5$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Michael.J.Fromberger-310D02.09414120082004@localhost>

In article <cg3ksb$bg5$1 at newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>,
 "M. Clift" <noone at here.com> wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
> Can someone help. I promise I've looked how to do this but can't find a
> way...
> 
> Ok, to find one name is easy
> 
> if 'Bob' in list:
>     print "They were found"
> else:
>     print "They are not in list"
> 
> But, how to I find a sequence in a list of unknown size? i.e. this sequence
> in list of other names and replace it with three others?
> 
> 'Rita','Sue','Bob'
> 
> This is almost a nightly occurrence (my posting questions), but I am
> learning : )

You've gotten several other answers, but I'd like to propose yet another 
one:

  def replace_sublist(L, S, T):
      """Replace each sublist of L equal to S with T.  Also returns the 
      resulting list."""
      
      assert(len(S) == len(T))
      
      for p in [ x for x in xrange(len(L))
                 if L[x] == S[0] and L[x : x + len(S)] == S ]:
          L[p : p + len(S)] = T
      
      return L

In short, the list comprehension gives all the offsets in L where a copy 
of S can be found as a sublist.  Now, if it happens that some of these 
positions overlap (e.g., L = [ 1, 1, 1 ] and S = [ 1, 1 ]), then the 
results will be strange.  But as long as your matches do not overlap, 
this should work well.

-M

-- 
Michael J. Fromberger             | Lecturer, Dept. of Computer Science
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~sting/  | Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA


From davidf at sjsoft.com  Thu Aug 19 12:33:03 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 18:33:03 +0200
Subject: My only complaint about Python
In-Reply-To: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <cg2ko0$2jl$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

Darren Dale wrote:
> I love the language. I love the community. My only complaint is that 
> Python for Windows is built with Visual Studio.
> 
> It is too difficult to build python, or a module, from source. This is 
> what open source is all about, isnt it? I even have a copy of visual 
> studio, and I still cant build modules from source, because my academic 
> copy is version 7. As a scientist funded by the NSF, I feel compelled to 
> do all my work using free software (I feel compelled to use free 
> software, regardless). And I feel compelled to contribute to the 
> scientific capabilities of my favorite programming language. But this 
> compiler issue is a big (and seemingly unnecessary) impediment. Will the 
> BDFL ever split with Visual Studio?

I agree. I don't mind it being built with Visual Studio, but out of the 
box mingw compatibility would be cool...


From shahpr at purdue.edu  Mon Aug  9 14:04:45 2004
From: shahpr at purdue.edu (Pulin Shah)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 11:04:45 -0700
Subject: windows service control manager problem
Message-ID: <a534651.0408091004.3d3e9a75@posting.google.com>

Hi.  I am wondering if anyone here can help me with a problem I am
having.  I have written an XMLRPCServer to run on WinXP.  When I
register and run the server, I cant get it to listen to a port.  But
if I just execute the server portion of the code, it does.  Any idea
why it doesnt work after registering it with the service control
manager?


From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Sun Aug  8 19:49:51 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 19:49:51 -0400
Subject: PEP-0318
In-Reply-To: <aIOdnRybBucMsIncRVn-gA@comcast.com>
References: <41122FC2.1080608@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1251.1091764482.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4114152f@nntp.zianet.com> <aIOdnRybBucMsIncRVn-gA@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <4116bc20$1@nntp.zianet.com>

Doug Holton wrote:
> You have to click on the "UserPreferences" link on the top right of
> the page and create an account (with a username like MarkBottjer and
> a password). Then when you refresh the PythonDecorators page you will
> be able to click an EditText link at the bottom of the page to edit
> it.

Thanks.

> I noticed you posted the "@decorators at the top of function body"
> idea right before I posted it here, too.  See the "compromise?"
> thread.

This idea seems to have occurred to a few people independently. Another
guy apparently beat me to posting it by a day or so. Here's hoping that 
someone with "cred" will see it and like it enough to promote it to GvR.

   -- Mark


From jmeile at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 10 16:50:27 2004
From: jmeile at hotmail.com (Josef Meile)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 22:50:27 +0200
Subject: Python equivalent to a C trick
In-Reply-To: <4119327f$1@pfaff2.ethz.ch>
References: <1d7b6d0d.0408092255.1177908e@posting.google.com>
	<slrnchgsml.8e4.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>
	<WR8Sc.10717$KZ2.9031@fe2.texas.rr.com> <4119327f$1@pfaff2.ethz.ch>
Message-ID: <41193351$1@pfaff2.ethz.ch>

Josef Meile wrote:
>>>> Example:
>>>> printf( "you have %i %s", num_eggs, num_eggs > 1 ? "eggs" : "egg" );
>>>
>>>
>>> print "you have %i %s" % ( num_eggs, ("egg","eggs")[num_eggs>1] )
>>
>>
>>
>> I would choose "!=" instead of ">" as the comparison operator.  I 
>> think the
>> accepted vernacular is:
>>
>> you have -2 eggs
>> you have -1 eggs
>> you have 0 eggs
>> you have 1 egg
>> you have 2 eggs
>> you have 3 eggs
>> you have 0.5 eggs
> 
> No offense intended, but the negative and float cases don't make any 
> sense for me on this context. You can't have -2 eggs or 0.5 eggs. The 
> last case won't occure as well because the output is being parsed to 
> int, so, you will get "you have 0 egg", which is again false. This error 
> happens with both solutions (with > and with !=).
Correction: The error happens only when using the ">" operator. With the 
"!=" doesn't happen.


From mauriceling at acm.org  Tue Aug 24 05:32:21 2004
From: mauriceling at acm.org (Maurice LING)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:32:21 GMT
Subject: using pexpect to control python
Message-ID: <412b0b21$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>

I know this might sounds wierd but I'm wondering if I can use pexpect or 
os.popen3 function to invoke and control python interpreter to make it 
act like a python interpreter in python?

maurice


From m.boeren at guidance.nl  Fri Aug 20 04:25:33 2004
From: m.boeren at guidance.nl (Marc Boeren)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:25:33 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
Message-ID: <0C77C7530EA52A4EBD1C47C80D1D291E17DE2A@sbs.GuidanceBV.local>


> voting on _alternatives_ to A.

If we're only voting on alternatives, I would change my vote (J2 J2 A2)
to (J2 J2 J2).

Cheerio, Marc.


From bh at intevation.de  Sat Aug  7 12:42:46 2004
From: bh at intevation.de (Bernhard Herzog)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 18:42:46 +0200
Subject: @decorators
References: <d22692a3.0408052234.7230fd74@posting.google.com>
	<roy-B53A92.08194306082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<10h73e5kh1et536@news.supernews.com> <4113e5be@nntp.zianet.com>
	<10h7qlg5adbfj86@news.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1314.1091827156.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <s9zn016lx15.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>

Tim Peters <tim.peters at gmail.com> writes:

> It does.  What it says is "arbitrary expressions will not work", and I
> would agree that's vague if you insisted it was <wink>.  What it means
> is that parameters are fine, but things like
>
> @list_of_decorators[index]

This could be written legally as
@list_of_decorators.__getitem__(1)

Or one could use operator.getitem

> @eatme and deco1 or deco2

@eval("eatme and deco1 or deco2")

> @random.choice([deco1, deco2, deco3])

That one is already legal!

Seems the restriction is somewhat pointless as it's easy to work around
if one really wants to.

  Bernhard

-- 
Intevation GmbH                                 http://intevation.de/
Skencil                                http://sketch.sourceforge.net/
Thuban                                  http://thuban.intevation.org/


From R.Brodie at rl.ac.uk  Mon Aug  9 11:00:22 2004
From: R.Brodie at rl.ac.uk (Richard Brodie)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 16:00:22 +0100
Subject: how many bytes in an int
References: <9ACRc.1523$bJ2.9739@news1.mts.net>
	<4116f8ee$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<FADRc.1532$bJ2.9871@news1.mts.net>
	<41170cd1$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<41171116$0$8079$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<41172C9A.2020301@jessikat.fsnet.co.uk>
	<41178bde$0$8077$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <cf83i7$182c@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>


"Grant Edwards" <grante at visi.com> wrote in message
news:41178bde$0$8077$a1866201 at newsreader.visi.com...

> Like the man said, "struct" doesn't convert to-from integers of
> specified byte lengths.

It does if you ask it to.




From jess.austin at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 18:20:10 2004
From: jess.austin at gmail.com (Jess Austin)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 15:20:10 -0700
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org> <412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>
	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>
	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>
	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>
	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>
	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b8ad139e.0408261420.22d14998@posting.google.com>

Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> Currently, you can change a doc string outside of a function, by 
> modifying the function's __doc__ attribute

[snip]

> IMO, to change it inside of a function def should be (but isn't) as easy 
> as...
> 
>    >>> def foo():
>    ...     """ I am foo """
>    ...     __doc__ = __doc__ + 'indeed'

I'm not trying to be mean, but why not use a class for this?  This is
the whole point of "self" - provide a persistent, updateable namespace
for an object.  (Note: explicit use of self in Python is a GOOD
THING!)  An object that needs such a namespace should be a class.  I'm
not sure why or how a function could use this anyway - why not just
set the docstring to " I am foo indeed" to start with?  If what you're
looking for is a "configured function", which contains some data (or
metadata) that is set at the beginning of the function's lifecycle, to
me that would be a closure, which could be written like this:

def closure_maker(postfix):
    def foo():
        """ I am foo """
        pass
    foo.__doc__ += postfix
    return foo

Or perhaps there is another application you had in mind, for which
this wouln't be sufficient?  Paul: I admit I'm a bit confused by your
wanting a function to have access to its metadata, because I could
have sworn that earlier in the thread you defined metadata as data
about an object that that object would never use itself.  I could be
thinking of someone else though...

later,
Jess


From fallen at leveltwo.com  Mon Aug 23 19:21:20 2004
From: fallen at leveltwo.com (Fred Allen)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 16:21:20 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<mailman.1857.1092832475.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <72976037.0408231521.4ef1af1d@posting.google.com>

Jeremy Jones <zanesdad at bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:<mailman.1857.1092832475.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> Lucas Raab wrote:
> 
> >One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> >Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> >about....
> >
> 

Sigh...I have programmed professionally in many languages since 1956,
the year I began with IBM 704 and 705 absolute(not quite assembler). I
have been a Python enthusiast for several years now, Regrettably, I
program little now, for my other company responsibilities forbid it. 
Moreover, I'll be seventy next year; I seem slightly less quick at
coding than in my salad days...happily, I'm surrounded by others still
in theirs. I hope that all laboring in the vineyards of ones and zeros
gain as much joy from their careers as I have (and still do) from
mine.

Fred Allen


From pythongnome at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 18 08:20:31 2004
From: pythongnome at hotmail.com (Lucas Raab)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:20:31 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
Message-ID: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>

One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
about....




From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Fri Aug 13 06:18:54 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 12:18:54 +0200
Subject: Why I love python.
In-Reply-To: <411C8CD9.32F39C2@mega-nerd.com>
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<411C8CD9.32F39C2@mega-nerd.com>
Message-ID: <2o3iboF662nfU1@uni-berlin.de>

Erik de Castro Lopo wrote:
> Nick Patavalis wrote:
>> 
> 
> <snip>
> 
>> Python needs drastic performance improvement if it is to scrap-off the
>> "scripting language" stigma. The only way to get these improvements is
>> making it possible for a python implementation to produce *efficient*
>> *compiled* code. At the same time the dynamic-typing nature of the
>> language is one of its most valuable characteristics. And this is one
>> of the hardest problems when trying to write a decent python
>> compiler. If you define a function like:
>> 
>>   def sum (a, b):
>>     return a + b
>> 
>> How can the compiler know what code to produce? 
> 
> I know of at least one language which has solved this problem, Ocaml
> 
>     http://www.ocaml.org/
> 
> Its called type inferencing and since there is at least one working 
> implementation, it can't be THAT hard.

Refer to the task "Typed Python" somewhere in the past if you want more
information about Python and Type inferencing.

Reinhold

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From edreamleo at charter.net  Thu Aug  5 13:47:45 2004
From: edreamleo at charter.net (Edward K. Ream)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 12:47:45 -0500
Subject: Confused about pep 318
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com><mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org><d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com><Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu><mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org><Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051249050.10473-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1210.1091725930.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10h4sm63o4dnd5a@corp.supernews.com>

> None of the decorator discussions _ever_ reached a conclusion.

I find this oddly reassuring, in a sorta black-humorous way.  At least we
won't have to undo the previous agreement :-)

> Would the bitching have been
> seriously that much better if, half an hour before I committed the patch,
> Guido had posted a note saying pretty much what I forwarded on from him?

The issue is not about rights to commit code, the issues are whether

a) the question was ever publicly discussed at all and
b) whether any consensus was reached.

Apparently, the answer to both questions is No.

> Yes, it would have been nice if PEP-0318 was updated in advance of this.

Not nice.  Essential.  It is fundamentally unfair to pretend to have
discussed a proposal publicly that has always been grossly misrepresented in
the one place one would naturally look to find information about it.

Edward
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Edward K. Ream   email:  edreamleo at charter.net
Leo: Literate Editor with Outlines
Leo: http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------




From tim.hochberg at cox.net  Tue Aug 10 15:38:01 2004
From: tim.hochberg at cox.net (Tim Hochberg)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:38:01 -0700
Subject: PEP-318,  billion-and-first syntax proposal
Message-ID: <cfb86s$iq$1@sea.gmane.org>



As soon as one of these syntax discussions go on long enough, I start to 
think that, whatever the problem ,it should be solved by thunks (search 
python dev if you need to know what a thunk is) or something thunk-like. 
It's a personal weakness, I suppose. In that vein, here's my entry into 
the Great Decorator Debate 2004.

def NAME as EXPRESSION:
    BLOCK

BLOCK is executed in a separate namespace *before* EXPRESSION is 
evaluated. EXPRESSION is then evaluated in BLOCK's namespace. This is 
probably best illustrated with an example or three:

    class C:

        # The standard staticmethod example. It works reasonably well
    for this, but is
        # a bit wordier than some examples. It's clear what's happening
    though.

        def foo as staticmethod(body):
            def body(x, y):
                #...
           
        # This method generalized nicely to properties, which I like.

        def bar as property(getbar, setbar, None, doc):
            doc = "That crazy bar property!"
            def getbar(self):
                #....
            def setbar(self, value):
                #....
               
        # It's pretty good for the nasty long decorators and arg list case.

        def bar as OBJCDecorator("@#%$@#^",
                   SomeOtherDecorator("asdfasf", body)):
            def body(a_long_argument_list, with_long_arg_name, _etc.):
                #....

This syntax is by no means perfect; it's a little wordy in the simple 
case for one thing. But it's more obvious what's happening in this 
syntax than in any of the others that I've seen which I think is a big 
plus.

It also generalizes well to the hypothetical Python 3000 with optional 
type checking, since the signature can be placed on the user visible 
'foo' instead of on the pre-transform body:

    def foo(int, int)->int as staticmethod(body):
        def body(x, y):
            #...

Enjoy,

-tim



From luismg at gmx.net  Mon Aug 23 21:45:15 2004
From: luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 18:45:15 -0700
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>	<278de0e.0408220636.3ee25f9d@posting.google.com>	<mYGdnT5L6pqMJ7XcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>	<278de0e.0408221450.324e8178@posting.google.com>	<cgdb8m$1bs$1@panix2.panix.com>
	<mailman.2247.1093300161.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <278de0e.0408231745.69eb33a6@posting.google.com>

> > That's true.  If that's what you'd said in the first place, nobody would
> > have argued with you.  However, this is what you said:
> > 
> >     It seems there are quite a few projects aimed to improve Python's
> >     speed and, therefore, eliminate its main limitation for mainstream
> >     acceptance.
> 
> Hey, cut the boy/girl some slack. I suspect what s/he meant to say was:
> 
>      It seems there are quite a few projects aimed to improve Python's
>      speed and, therefore, eliminate its main perceived limitation for
>      mainstream acceptance.



At least someone who got it right!!!
I thought this was the spanish inquisition...


From jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu  Mon Aug 30 10:21:31 2004
From: jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu (John Hunter)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:21:31 -0500
Subject: why does this fail on python 2.2?
Message-ID: <m2oeksu2ok.fsf@mother.paradise.lost>


I'm trying to understand why some code from a module I'm using is
failing on 2.3 but working on 2.3.  Here is the minimal example that
replicates the problem

class Results(object):
    __slots__ = ( "__doinit" )
    def __new__(cls):
        retobj = object.__new__(cls)
        retobj.__doinit = True
        return retobj

x = Results()

On python2.2, this fails with

mother:~/tmp> python2.2 test.py
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "test.py", line 8, in ?
    x = Results()
  File "test.py", line 5, in __new__
    retobj.__doinit = True
AttributeError: 'Results' object has no attribute '_Results__doinit'


From me at privacy.net  Thu Aug 12 15:40:31 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Dan Sommers)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 15:40:31 -0400
Subject: Verbosity Check Style
References: <mailman.1563.1092324234.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m28yckf8ls.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:23:49 -0400,
<brianc at temple.edu> wrote:

> I would like to get people's views on the best way to implement
> verbosity (or any command-line option) into python scripts.

Use the logging module (new in 2.3).  I think that verbosity equates to
the INFO level.

Regards,
Dan

-- 
Dan Sommers
<http://www.tombstonezero.net/dan/>
Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.


From jeremy+plusnews at jeremysanders.net  Thu Aug 26 05:08:46 2004
From: jeremy+plusnews at jeremysanders.net (Jeremy Sanders)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:08:46 +0100
Subject: Best processor (i386) for Python performance?
References: <789f72ac.0408251950.e85d23e@posting.google.com>
	<412d7e9d$0$26184$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.26.09.08.46.342107@jeremysanders.net>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:09:40 +0200, Martin v. L?wis wrote:

> Python applications are often memory intensive, so a fast bus and a large
> cache should help. Also, raw clock speed should help. Hyperthreading and
> AMD64 are irrelevant (although for the latter, it would be interesting to
> see how linux-x86 compares to linux-amd64 on the same machine for Python
> performance).

Yes - AMD64 could be relevant if Python gets a speed boost from the extra
registers it has available.

Jeremy



From adurdin at gmail.com  Sat Aug 21 18:07:56 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 08:07:56 +1000
Subject: Overriding logical operators?
In-Reply-To: <04Aug21.160611edt.97252@mail.srv.cquest.utoronto.ca>
References: <04Aug21.160611edt.97252@mail.srv.cquest.utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a040821150717a49723@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:06:08 -0500, Chris Siebenmann
<cks at cquest.utoronto.ca> wrote:
> 
>  Conceptually, 'and' and 'or' (and 'not') don't operate on objects:
> they operate on truth values (generally derived from objects).

But in Python, a "truth value" is an object: a bool object.


From mjackson at alumni.caltech.edu  Wed Aug 18 10:08:36 2004
From: mjackson at alumni.caltech.edu (Mark Jackson)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 14:08:36 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <cfvnt4$98p$1@news.wrc.xerox.com>

"Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> writes:
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....

55.  Wrote my first program at 16 (Fortran, punch cards).

-- 
Mark Jackson - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
	Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it
	is the merger of state and corporate power.
				- Benito Mussolini




From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Aug  9 14:48:34 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (simo)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 11:48:34 -0700
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <30260531.0408091048.7011855f@posting.google.com>

Fred <nobody at nowhere.com> wrote:

[snip]
> I tried wxDesigner and wxGlade, but neither lets me move the widgets
> around. 

Dunno what you're smoking there man!

> I also tried Dialogblocks, but it seems to only handle C++ or XRC, not Python.

I don't know that one.
 
> Is this all there is, or is there a gem I missed?

Qt Designer (for use with PyQt though) or just hand-code the layout,
it ain't that hard.....


From dieter at handshake.de  Fri Aug 13 16:00:33 2004
From: dieter at handshake.de (Dieter Maurer)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 22:00:33 +0200
Subject: Importance of C# (was Re: IronPython-0.6 is now available!)
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>
	<ce9cp3$g39$1@bagan.srce.hr> <5dydnZSDZaARoZXcRVn-ug@powergate.ca>
	<1n5z28erh2m3u.dlg@baczek.net.invalid>
	<FvCdnVnESJR0ZpXcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.921.1091114694.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<537ea4cd.0408070757.14790cfe@posting.google.com>
	<41155c78$0$4348$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<144d0df.0408092156.1455f2af@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <x7smaqn6zi.fsf@handshake.de>

grv575 at hotmail.com (grv575) writes on 9 Aug 2004 22:56:55 -0700:
> ...
> Really MI
> causes more issues and confusion than it solves.

I recently implemented a core SGML/XML based content management
system within about 4 months.

It heavily uses mixin classes: PropertyManagement, History, WorkflowSupport,
Persistency, Skinnability, DOMSupport, Publishablity, Versionability, ...

Whenever a class needs some elementary feature, it simply inherits
the corresponding mixin class and (maybe) customizes (overrides)
some adapter methods.

Multiple inheritance is vital for this approach!


While it would (of course) be possible to implement such
a system with single inheritance (or even without inheritance),
I guess that the code size would be about 6 times as large
and it would have taken about twice as long:

   A class that now just adds a mixin class to its inheritance
   list would get littered with redefinitions
   for the mixin class's public API functions.

   Each redefinition would stupidly delegate to an embedded
   instance of the mixin class, thus it is not difficult.
   Nevertheless, it would clutter the code, make unnessary effort,
   add potential for trivial bugs.


Dieter


From nicksjacobson at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 06:20:00 2004
From: nicksjacobson at yahoo.com (Nick Jacobson)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 03:20:00 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <f8097096.0408270220.62b5d9f4@posting.google.com>

I'm not nuts about "using", but it's far better than "@" (as would be
lots of other keywords).

I vote FOR.

--Nick Jacobson


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Fri Aug  6 17:32:48 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 17:32:48 -0400
Subject: PEP 263 status check
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com> <4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de>
	<10h5hgvpafm8a64@news.supernews.com> <41133C76.8040302@v.loewis.de>
	<10h6rklt3fa1690@news.supernews.com> <41137799.70808@v.loewis.de>
	<10h724r20kkeqb2@news.supernews.com>
	<HBF.20040806qchc@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <10h7u8m9qknh76e@news.supernews.com>


"Hallvard B Furuseth" <h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no> wrote in message
news:HBF.20040806qchc at bombur.uio.no...
> An addition to Martin's reply:
>
> John Roth wrote:
> >"Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote in message
> >news:41137799.70808 at v.loewis.de...
> >>John Roth wrote:
> >>
> >> To be more specific: In an UTF-8 source file, doing
> >>
> >> print "?" == "\xc3\xb6"
> >> print "?"[0] == "\xc3"
> >>
> >> would print two times "True", and len("?") is 2.
> >> OTOH, len(u"?")==1.
> >>
> >>> The point of this is that I don't think that either behavior
> >>> is what one would expect. It's also an open invitation
> >>> for someone to make an unchecked mistake! I think this
> >>> may be Hallvard's underlying issue in the other thread.
> >>
> >> What would you expect instead? Do you think your expectation
> >> is implementable?
> >
> > I'd expect that the compiler would reject anything that
> > wasn't either in the 7-bit ascii subset, or else defined
> > with a hex escape.
>
> Then you should also expect a lot of people to move to
> another language - one whose designers live in the real
> world instead of your Utopian Unicode world.

Rudeness objection to your characteization.

Please see my response to Martin - I'm talking only,
and I repeat ONLY, about scripts that explicitly
say they are encoded in utf-8. Nothing else. I've
been in this business for close to 40 years, and I'm
quite well aware of backwards compatibility issues
and issues with breaking existing code.

Programmers in general have a very strong, and
let me repeat that, VERY STRONG assumption
that an 8-bit string contains one byte per character
unless there is a good reason to believe otherwise.
This assumption is built into various places, including
all of the string methods.

The current design allows accidental inclusion of
a character that is not in the 7bit ascii subset ***IN
A PROGRAM THAT HAS A UTF-8 CHARACTER
ENCODING DECLARATION*** to break that
assumption without any kind of notice. That in
turn will break all of the assumptions that the string
module and string methods are based on. That in
turn is likely to break lots of existing modules and
cause a lot of debugging time that could be avoided
by proper design.

One of Python's strong points is that it's difficult
to get into trouble unless you deliberately try (then
it's quite easy, fortunately.)

I'm not worried about this causing people to
abandon Python. I'm more worried about the
current situation causing enough grief that people
will decided that utf-8 source code encoding isn't
worth it.

> And tell me why I shouldn't be allowed to work easily with raw
> UTF-8 strings, if I do use coding:utf-8.

First, there's nothing that's stopping you. All that
my proposal will do is require you to do a one
time conversion of any strings you put in the
program as literals. It doesn't affect any other
strings in any other way at any other time.

I'll withdraw my objection if you can seriously
assure me that working with raw utf-8 in
8-bit character string literals is what most programmers
are going to do most of the time.

I'm not going to accept the very common need
of converting unicode strings to 8-bit strings so
they can be written to disk or stored in a data base
or whatnot (or reversing the conversion for reading.)
That has nothing to do with the current issue - it's
something that everyone who deals with unicode
needs to do, regardless of the encoding of the
source program.

John Roth
>
> -- 
> Hallvard




From Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU  Wed Aug 18 17:49:23 2004
From: Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU (Michael J. Fromberger)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:49:23 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
References: <mailman.1829.1092785390.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<65adnQrUKILiC7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1834.1092791633.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<m2vffgd6pu.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
	<mailman.1858.1092832530.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-6AF702.10114718082004@localhost>
	<mailman.1891.1092854353.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Michael.J.Fromberger-FF646E.17492318082004@localhost>

In article <mailman.1891.1092854353.5135.python-list at python.org>,
 Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Michael J. Fromberger wrote:
> 
> > In article <mailman.1858.1092832530.5135.python-list at python.org>,
> >  Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>    class Foo:
> >>       def method1(self, a, b): pass       # clearly an instance method
> >>       def method2(cls, a, b): pass        # clearly a class method
> >>       def method3(a, b): pass             # clearly a static method
> > 
> > I think this is a terrible idea.  What you are proposing is essentially 
> > that Python should assign special meaning to the identifiers "self" and 
> > "cls" when they appear as the first variable in a method definition 
> > inside a class.  I am having a hard time thinking of anything LESS in 
> > the spirit of Python, short of writing in unstructured BASIC.
> 
> 'self' already has a special meaning to experienced Python developers, 
> by virtue of its role in the recommended coding practices.

That's true:  And note, that its special meaning is interpreted not by 
the Python translator, but by the Python programmer.  It is my feeling
that it should remain thus.

> And if you ask experienced Python developers who understand the 
> difference between class, static, and instance methods, to guess what 
> kind of method this is...
> 
>      def foo(cls, a, b): pass
> 
> ...I bet the majority would correctly guess "class".

Well, given just that definition, the guess would be incorrect.  The 
current release of Python would also require:

   def foo(cls, a, b): pass  # As defined above
   foo = classmethod(foo)

Otherwise, it would be an instance method, not a class method.  I hope 
this illustrates why visual conventions are not always as obvious as 
they seem, and should not be cast into the concrete of implementation.

> Right.  So a convention becomes a rule.  Sounds like a natural 
> evolution.

And just like in natural evoluation, not all mutations are desirable. ;)

> Declarations aren't needed when an obvious interpretation of the code 
> conveys the desired meaning.

What about when the obvious interpretation of the code does NOT convey 
the desired meaning?

-M

-- 
Michael J. Fromberger             | Lecturer, Dept. of Computer Science
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~sting/  | Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA


From http  Tue Aug 17 04:18:25 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 01:18:25 -0700
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
References: <mailman.1779.1092728873.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <7xoelanpny.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Michael Sparks <zathras at thwackety.com> writes:
> Correct. I never claimed that doing this in "pure" python was possible -
> largly because I think such a concept is pretty silly.
> 
> After all, what is "pure" anyway?
>    * Is using a module that comes with python allowed?

Yes

>    * If so is using a module written in C acceptable?

Only if it comes with Python

>       * If so what if greenlets gets included at some point in time, do
>         modules included cease being "pure", or would greenlets be
>         redefined?.

I don't understand.  Something using greenlets is impure now but becomes
pur eif greenlets gets included.

>       * Also if using a builtin module written in C is "pure" then why are
>         modules written in C not included not "pure"?

Because "Python" is what you get when you install the Python distro,
so anything included with the distro is Python no matter what language
it's written in.  Anything not included with the distro is only Python
if it's written in Python.

>       * You might conclude then that "pure" python couldn't use
>         modules written in C whether included with the interpreter or not.

No, pure includes C modules included with the interpreter.

>   * If you conclude that what about the python interpreter? That'ss
>      written in C, so *that's* not pure if you mean code that only using
>      python anywhere in the system. (if you allow the interpreter, why
>      not modules that come with it?)

The modules that come with the interpreter are allowed and they count
as pure.  Put another way, pure means any module you can run after
installing the Python distro, without having to run anything except
the Python distro (i.e. no C compiler).  Maybe someday the Python
distro will include a C compiler.  If that happens, then all C modules
will become pure.  Until then, only the C modules that are made
available through the Python installation process count as pure.

> IMO, the question is one of practicality. It is practical to use
> generators to build concurrent systems - and it works pretty well.

Not Python generators.  Generators in other languages, maybe.

> If that's not good enough it is practical to using concurrency
> implementated as an extension to python. If that's not good enough,
> it is practical to a different implementation of python. Or if
> concurrency in a single thread isn't sufficient you can change to
> threads or processes.

No that's ridiculous.  Switching between OS threads needs context
switching in and out of the kernel.  Coroutines are supposed to be
more like function calls in terms of overhead.  Simulating them with
OS threads is like simulating register loads and stores with XML
transactions over the internet.

> I prefer "practical python" over "pure python" ;-)

Practical python very often means you have a Python distro that
someone else installed.  Whatever it can run, you can run, and
whatever it can't run, you can't run.  You don't get a C compiler.
That's why the concept of "pure Python" is meaningful and important.

> And if you choose appropriate coding conventions every problem domain that
> co-routines and continuations can solve, generators can be used with
> almost equal effectiveness.

No, not Python generators, they're amazingly useful, but they're much
less powerful than first class continuations.


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 11:42:53 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:42:53 -0400
Subject: Newbie question about file input
In-Reply-To: <cfqj3s$cti$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
References: <cfqj3s$cti$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
Message-ID: <l4OdnXIFkbhjSL3cRVn-uA@powergate.ca>

Aaron Deskins wrote:

> My first attempt at the python script is:
> 
> #! /usr/bin/env python
> import string
> import sys
> zf=open('test.pgn','r')
> # games is number of games
> games = 0
> while 1:
>  line = zf.readline()
>  if line == '':
>    break
>  ls = line.split()
>  print ls[0]
>  if ls[0] == '[Event':
>   games+=1
> zf.close()
> print games

Small note: it would make your code more readable and thus
easier to comment on if you followed convention and used four
spaces for indentation.  Your volunteer tutors thank you! :-)

> I'm having problems when the script reads a blank line from the pgn 
> file. I get the following error message:
>   IndexError: list index out of range
> The problem is that ls[0] does not exist when a blank line is read. What 
> would be the best way of fixing this?

The "best" way might be just to check for and ignore blank lines prior
to the rest of the code that might fail when you find one:

while 1:
     line = zf.readline()
     if not line:
         break   # more idiomatic, perhaps, than if line == ''

     # remove leading and trailing whitespace, including newline
     line = line.strip()
     if not line:
         continue  # don't break, go back for another

     # from here on line is guaranteed not to be blank


Another approach might be to use exceptions, though I wouldn't
really recommend it here since the above is fairly idiomatic,
I believe:

while 1:
     # blah blah
     ls = line.split()
     try:
         if ls[0] == '[Event':
             # blah
     except IndexError:
         # blank line, so no first field, so continue
         continue


You might also consider using "ls.startswith('[Event')"
instead, as that avoids the need to split the line at
all, but you're doing fine on your own so far.  (Not that
this will stop someone from posting a one-liner using
the "re" module and len(findall()), but you can safely
ignore them. ;-)

-Peter


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Sat Aug 14 07:55:13 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 21:55:13 +1000
Subject: python and XML resources
Message-ID: <1092484513.411dfda120873@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

does anyone know of good online resources on XML processing in Python. I am
using the PyXML package and have read the introductory XML HOWTO.
what i am looking for is a more detailed and comprehensive coverage of the
entire package - all the classes and functions etc

cheers
ajay




----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From db3l at fitlinxx.com  Tue Aug 31 12:43:11 2004
From: db3l at fitlinxx.com (David Bolen)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 12:43:11 -0400
Subject: MSI Installer Problem: can't install 2.4a2 on new install of
	Win2kSP2
References: <vnipi0ldsgchqqiti1q19qtd5d70ju17p0@4ax.com>
	<412d7dcd$0$26184$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<sfsri058cggdn56usp887tcrus25sgdcsv@4ax.com>
	<412e5452$0$24835$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<p5vsi09a62l3jgvo7omks26gipml6ru524@4ax.com>
	<92uui05l49lurff1depfmvblq8esqllcpg@4ax.com>
	<412f8ebd$0$13030$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
Message-ID: <ueklnqmw0.fsf@fitlinxx.com>

"Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> writes:

> b) if there is no \, python.exe must be on the PATH. So we look there,
>     and find one in C:\python23, and believe this is us. This logic is
>     flawed, as we should *first* look into the current directory (I
>     think)

You'd probably need to conditionalize the use of the current directory
on Windows, since on *nix, the current directory isn't automatically
searched.  Maybe the current implementation represents a bit of *nix
heritage.

-- David


From scott.b.drummonds.nospam at intel.com  Wed Aug 11 16:25:19 2004
From: scott.b.drummonds.nospam at intel.com (Scott Brady Drummonds)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:25:19 -0700
Subject: 'break' Causes Execution of Procedure?
References: <cfdif9$hhm$1@news01.intel.com> <cfdlfi$l2l$06$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <cfdvbf$o6i$1@news01.intel.com>

"Peter Otten" <__peter__ at web.de> wrote in message
news:cfdlfi$l2l$06$1 at news.t-online.com...
> Unfortunately you seem to have picked the wrong snippets, which by the way
> look made-up. The only error I see

Yeah, that was a typo.  I certainly would prefer to post real failing code
as opposed to code snippits, but I needed a way of distilling the importat
parts out of the program.  Sorry for doing a bad job of that.

> The "most basic" error would be a print statement producing
>
> > DEBUG: begin main procedure
>
> sitting in a second place where it doesn't belong and isn't expected.

Right.  You've got the idea.  There's no reason why the print statement at
the first line of main() should be executed after the break statement.  It
doesn't make sense.

> > How is it possible that the call to 'break' is seemingly being replaced
> > with a call to 'main'?
>
> Other than with a buggy C-extension that is not possible.

What is equally more confounding is that I cannot duplicate this error with
a small case I can post here.  :(  I'm still trying, though...

Scott


-- 
Remove .nospam from my e-mail address to mail me.





From isaact at netscape.net  Fri Aug 27 21:24:43 2004
From: isaact at netscape.net (Isaac To)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 09:24:43 +0800
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87hdqok9i6.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1rfz68ely9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<876574k7du.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1r3c28ejis.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <87fz68vyuc.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>

>>>>> "Kjetil" == Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no> writes:

    Kjetil> how long do you have to stare before spotting the bug?

At the first instant when I look at the code, something like within 2
seconds.

    Kjetil>     db.update_name(person)
    Kjetil>     if is_student(person):
    Kjetil>         db.update_courses(person)
    Kjetil>         db.commit()

    Kjetil> only students have their names updated.  I wonder why.

    Kjetil> real world examples have taken hours or days.

Perhaps because you don't know Python?  Or because you are too
accustomed to writing C with broken indentation?

Regards,
Isaac.


From aisaac at american.edu  Fri Aug 13 16:06:03 2004
From: aisaac at american.edu (Alan G Isaac)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:06:03 -0400
Subject: ironic doctest bug?
Message-ID: <10hq7lsguiqfj93@corp.supernews.com>

> python doctest.py -v
Running doctest.__doc__
Trying: [1, 2, 3].remove(42)
Expecting:
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
ValueError: list.remove(x): x not in list
ok
Trying: x = 12
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying: x
Expecting: 12
ok
Trying:
if x == 13:
    print "yes"
else:
    print "no"
    print "NO"
    print "NO!!!"
Expecting:
no
NO
NO!!!
ok
Trying:
if "yes" == \
    "y" +   \
    "es":   # in the source code you'll see the doubled backslashes
    print 'yes'
Expecting: yes
ok
Trying: assert "Easy!"
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying: import math
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying: math.floor(1.9)
Expecting: 1.0
ok
0 of 8 examples failed in doctest.__doc__
Running doctest.DocTestSuite.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest.DocTestSuite.__doc__
Running doctest.DocTestTestFailure.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest.DocTestTestFailure.__doc__
Running doctest.Tester.__doc__
Trying: from doctest import Tester
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying: t = Tester(globs={'x': 42}, verbose=0)
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying:
t.runstring(r'''
     >>> x = x * 2
     >>> print x
     42
''', 'XYZ')
Expecting:
*****************************************************************
Failure in example: print x
from line #2 of XYZ
Expected: 42
Got: 84
(1, 2)
ok
Trying: t.runstring(">>> x = x * 2\n>>> print x\n84\n", 'example2')
Expecting: (0, 2)
ok
Trying: t.summarize()
Expecting:
*****************************************************************
1 items had failures:
   1 of   2 in XYZ
***Test Failed*** 1 failures.
(1, 4)
ok
Trying: t.summarize(verbose=1)
Expecting:
1 items passed all tests:
   2 tests in example2
*****************************************************************
1 items had failures:
   1 of   2 in XYZ
4 tests in 2 items.
3 passed and 1 failed.
***Test Failed*** 1 failures.
(1, 4)
ok
0 of 6 examples failed in doctest.Tester.__doc__
Running doctest.Tester._Tester__record_outcome.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest.Tester._Tester__record_outcome.__doc__
Running doctest.Tester._Tester__runone.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest.Tester._Tester__runone.__doc__
Running doctest.Tester.__init__.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest.Tester.__init__.__doc__
Running doctest.Tester.merge.__doc__
Trying: from doctest import Tester
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying: t1 = Tester(globs={}, verbose=0)
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying:
t1.runstring('''
>>> x = 12
>>> print x
12
''', "t1example")
Expecting: (0, 2)
ok
Trying: t2 = Tester(globs={}, verbose=0)
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying:
t2.runstring('''
>>> x = 13
>>> print x
13
''', "t2example")
Expecting: (0, 2)
ok
Trying: common = ">>> assert 1 + 2 == 3\n"
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying: t1.runstring(common, "common")
Expecting: (0, 1)
ok
Trying: t2.runstring(common, "common")
Expecting: (0, 1)
ok
Trying: t1.merge(t2)
Expecting: *** Tester.merge: 'common' in both testers; summing outcomes.
ok
Trying: t1.summarize(1)
Expecting:
3 items passed all tests:
   2 tests in common
   2 tests in t1example
   2 tests in t2example
6 tests in 3 items.
6 passed and 0 failed.
Test passed.
(0, 6)
ok
0 of 10 examples failed in doctest.Tester.merge.__doc__
Running doctest.Tester.run__test__.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest.Tester.run__test__.__doc__
Running doctest.Tester.rundict.__doc__
Trying: import new
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying: m1 = new.module('_m1')
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying: m2 = new.module('_m2')
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying:
test_data = """
def _f():
    '''>>> assert 1 == 1
    '''
def g():
   '''>>> assert 2 != 1
   '''
class H:
   '''>>> assert 2 > 1
   '''
   def bar(self):
       '''>>> assert 1 < 2
       '''
"""
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying: exec test_data in m1.__dict__
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying: exec test_data in m2.__dict__
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying: m1.__dict__.update({"f2": m2._f, "g2": m2.g, "h2": m2.H})
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying: t = Tester(globs={}, verbose=0, isprivate=is_private)
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying:
t.rundict(m1.__dict__, "rundict_test", m1)  # _f, f2 and g2 and h2 skipped
Expecting: (0, 3)
ok
Trying: t = Tester(globs={}, verbose=0)
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying:
t.rundict(m1.__dict__, "rundict_test_pvt", m1)  # Only f2, g2 and h2 skipped
Expecting: (0, 4)
ok
Trying: t = Tester(globs={}, verbose=0)
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying: t.rundict(m1.__dict__, "rundict_test_pvt")  # None are skipped.
Expecting: (0, 8)
ok
Trying: testmod(m1, isprivate=is_private)
Expecting: (0, 3)
*****************************************************************
Failure in example: testmod(m1, isprivate=is_private)
from line #55 of doctest.Tester.rundict
Expected: (0, 3)
Got:
Running _m1.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in _m1.__doc__
Running _m1.H.__doc__
Trying: assert 2 > 1
Expecting: nothing
ok
0 of 1 examples failed in _m1.H.__doc__
Running _m1.H.bar.__doc__
Trying: assert 1 < 2
Expecting: nothing
ok
0 of 1 examples failed in _m1.H.bar.__doc__
Running _m1.g.__doc__
Trying: assert 2 != 1
Expecting: nothing
ok
0 of 1 examples failed in _m1.g.__doc__
1 items had no tests:
    _m1
3 items passed all tests:
   1 tests in _m1.H
   1 tests in _m1.H.bar
   1 tests in _m1.g
3 tests in 4 items.
3 passed and 0 failed.
Test passed.
(0, 3)
1 of 14 examples failed in doctest.Tester.rundict.__doc__
Running doctest.Tester.rundoc.__doc__
Trying: t = Tester(globs={}, verbose=0)
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying:
def _f():
    '''Trivial docstring example.
    >>> assert 2 == 2
    '''
    return 32
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying: t.rundoc(_f)  # expect 0 failures in 1 example
Expecting: (0, 1)
ok
0 of 3 examples failed in doctest.Tester.rundoc.__doc__
Running doctest.Tester.runstring.__doc__
Trying: t = Tester(globs={}, verbose=1)
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying:
test = r'''
   # just an example
   >>> x = 1 + 2
   >>> x
   3
'''
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying: t.runstring(test, "Example")
Expecting:
Running string Example
Trying: x = 1 + 2
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying: x
Expecting: 3
ok
0 of 2 examples failed in string Example
(0, 2)
ok
0 of 3 examples failed in doctest.Tester.runstring.__doc__
Running doctest.Tester.summarize.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest.Tester.summarize.__doc__
Running doctest._SpoofOut.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest._SpoofOut.__doc__
Running doctest._SpoofOut.__init__.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest._SpoofOut.__init__.__doc__
Running doctest._SpoofOut.clear.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest._SpoofOut.clear.__doc__
Running doctest._SpoofOut.flush.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest._SpoofOut.flush.__doc__
Running doctest._SpoofOut.get.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest._SpoofOut.get.__doc__
Running doctest._SpoofOut.write.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest._SpoofOut.write.__doc__
Running doctest._TestClass.__doc__
Trying: _TestClass(13).get() + _TestClass(-12).get()
Expecting: 1
ok
Trying: hex(_TestClass(13).square().get())
Expecting: '0xa9'
ok
0 of 2 examples failed in doctest._TestClass.__doc__
Running doctest._TestClass.__init__.__doc__
Trying: t = _TestClass(123)
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying: print t.get()
Expecting: 123
ok
0 of 2 examples failed in doctest._TestClass.__init__.__doc__
Running doctest._TestClass.get.__doc__
Trying: x = _TestClass(-42)
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying: print x.get()
Expecting: -42
ok
0 of 2 examples failed in doctest._TestClass.get.__doc__
Running doctest._TestClass.square.__doc__
Trying: _TestClass(13).square().get()
Expecting: 169
ok
0 of 1 examples failed in doctest._TestClass.square.__doc__
Running doctest._expect.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest._expect.__doc__
Running doctest._extract_doctests.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest._extract_doctests.__doc__
Running doctest._extract_examples.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest._extract_examples.__doc__
Running doctest._extract_future_flags.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest._extract_future_flags.__doc__
Running doctest._find_tests.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest._find_tests.__doc__
Running doctest._from_module.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest._from_module.__doc__
Running doctest._get_doctest.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest._get_doctest.__doc__
Running doctest._normalize_module.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest._normalize_module.__doc__
Running doctest._run_examples.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest._run_examples.__doc__
Running doctest._run_examples_inner.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest._run_examples_inner.__doc__
Running doctest._tag_out.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest._tag_out.__doc__
Running doctest._test.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest._test.__doc__
Running doctest._utest.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest._utest.__doc__
Running doctest.debug.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest.debug.__doc__
Running doctest.is_private.__doc__
Trying: is_private("a.b", "my_func")
Expecting: False
ok
Trying: is_private("____", "_my_func")
Expecting: True
ok
Trying: is_private("someclass", "__init__")
Expecting: False
ok
Trying: is_private("sometypo", "__init_")
Expecting: True
ok
Trying: is_private("x.y.z", "_")
Expecting: True
ok
Trying: is_private("_x.y.z", "__")
Expecting: False
ok
Trying: is_private("", "")  # senseless but consistent
Expecting: False
ok
0 of 7 examples failed in doctest.is_private.__doc__
Running doctest.run_docstring_examples.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest.run_docstring_examples.__doc__
Running doctest.testmod.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest.testmod.__doc__
Running doctest.testsource.__doc__
0 of 0 examples failed in doctest.testsource.__doc__
Running doctest.__test__._TestClass.__doc__
Trying: _TestClass(13).get() + _TestClass(-12).get()
Expecting: 1
ok
Trying: hex(_TestClass(13).square().get())
Expecting: '0xa9'
ok
0 of 2 examples failed in doctest.__test__._TestClass.__doc__
Running doctest.__test__._TestClass.__init__.__doc__
Trying: t = _TestClass(123)
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying: print t.get()
Expecting: 123
ok
0 of 2 examples failed in doctest.__test__._TestClass.__init__.__doc__
Running doctest.__test__._TestClass.get.__doc__
Trying: x = _TestClass(-42)
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying: print x.get()
Expecting: -42
ok
0 of 2 examples failed in doctest.__test__._TestClass.get.__doc__
Running doctest.__test__._TestClass.square.__doc__
Trying: _TestClass(13).square().get()
Expecting: 169
ok
0 of 1 examples failed in doctest.__test__._TestClass.square.__doc__
Running string doctest.__test__.bool-int equivalence
Trying: 4 == 4
Expecting: 1
ok
Trying: 4 == 4
Expecting: True
ok
Trying: 4 > 4
Expecting: 0
ok
Trying: 4 > 4
Expecting: False
ok
0 of 4 examples failed in string doctest.__test__.bool-int equivalence
Running string doctest.__test__.string
Trying: x = 1; y = 2
Expecting: nothing
ok
Trying: x + y, x * y
Expecting: (3, 2)
ok
0 of 2 examples failed in string doctest.__test__.string
30 items had no tests:
    doctest.DocTestSuite
    doctest.DocTestTestFailure
    doctest.Tester._Tester__record_outcome
    doctest.Tester._Tester__runone
    doctest.Tester.__init__
    doctest.Tester.run__test__
    doctest.Tester.summarize
    doctest._SpoofOut
    doctest._SpoofOut.__init__
    doctest._SpoofOut.clear
    doctest._SpoofOut.flush
    doctest._SpoofOut.get
    doctest._SpoofOut.write
    doctest._expect
    doctest._extract_doctests
    doctest._extract_examples
    doctest._extract_future_flags
    doctest._find_tests
    doctest._from_module
    doctest._get_doctest
    doctest._normalize_module
    doctest._run_examples
    doctest._run_examples_inner
    doctest._tag_out
    doctest._test
    doctest._utest
    doctest.debug
    doctest.run_docstring_examples
    doctest.testmod
    doctest.testsource
16 items passed all tests:
   8 tests in doctest
   6 tests in doctest.Tester
  10 tests in doctest.Tester.merge
   3 tests in doctest.Tester.rundoc
   3 tests in doctest.Tester.runstring
   2 tests in doctest._TestClass
   2 tests in doctest._TestClass.__init__
   2 tests in doctest._TestClass.get
   1 tests in doctest._TestClass.square
   2 tests in doctest.__test__._TestClass
   2 tests in doctest.__test__._TestClass.__init__
   2 tests in doctest.__test__._TestClass.get
   1 tests in doctest.__test__._TestClass.square
   4 tests in doctest.__test__.bool-int equivalence
   2 tests in doctest.__test__.string
   7 tests in doctest.is_private
*****************************************************************
1 items had failures:
   1 of  14 in doctest.Tester.rundict
71 tests in 47 items.
70 passed and 1 failed.
***Test Failed*** 1 failures.




From BruceEckel at MailBlocks.com  Thu Aug  5 23:33:45 2004
From: BruceEckel at MailBlocks.com (Bruce Eckel)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 21:33:45 -0600
Subject: Proposed improved decorator syntax
In-Reply-To: <1091753696.4112d6e06ea9e@webmail.oregonstate.edu>
References: <1091753696.4112d6e06ea9e@webmail.oregonstate.edu>
	<1091564446.20040805213345@MailBlocks.com>
Message-ID: <BruceEckel-0lpTuAUWXG0EuRlX5HsHfdP/jM2g0bK@mailblocks.com>


Thursday, August 5, 2004, 6:54:56 PM, barnesc at engr.orst.edu wrote:

> Recognize that we're *really* trying to create function metadata. A more
> flexible solution is to make a metadata dictionary be part of function and
> class definitions.  Then 'decorator' simply becomes one name among many
> different metadata names.

I have to say I find this argument compelling. I can't say whether the
syntax works well, but if the fundamental problem is metadata, then
solving that in a way that solves all aspects of metadata is
desireable.

That said, I observe that this seems to be a fairly new topic for
many, including myself; I have some grasp of Java's metadata facility
and less of C#'s (although I understand C#'s to be more limiting than
Java's) and I have not read anything terribly in-depth about either.
It reminds me of my first exposure to C++ templates many years ago --
it seemed like there was a lot more to it than meets the eye, but it
took me years to really start to grasp what it was about (by
understanding latent typing via python).

One thing that has come up in Java is that metadata has been suggested
for use in implementing a version of aspect-oriented programming,
another feature I've been struggling to understand. The one thing
about aspects that has occurred to me is that macros seem to be trying
to solve a similar problem (changing code behavior across the code
base), as do metaclasses. Same problem, very different approaches and
degrees of effectiveness. Things like the implementation of
'synchronized' is more aspecty than it is metadata; it is implementing
behavior changes rather than just attaching information to something
(the original intent of metadata; in Java you must generally write
additional code in order to add behavior based on a metadata tag).

I suppose the question, then, is this: what is the true intent of
decorators? Is it for code behavior change, or metadata, or both? If
it is for code behavior change, how do I hook into that with my own
code; if I wanted to implement, for example, logging upon entry and
exit of a method (the classic AOP example) or to begin and end a
transaction upon entry and exit of a method?

For that matter, should we limit the syntax of decorators to always
being at the beginning of a method? True aspects allow you to put a
cutpoint at any point in a method; perhaps decorators shouldn't be
restricted (even if we choose not to implement these ideas right
away).

These issues are tricky but they could be very powerful. And this
conversation is sounding an awfully lot like some of the language
design stuff that happened in the C++ committee. Some members decried
this, saying that the committee should only be codifying existing
features, but I think it was very necessary for these things to be
tried, even if they didn't always work out.

And I think we may be at a point where only experimentation will tell
us what works and where this thing needs to go. No one has enough
experience with it -- although some might argue that this is the
reason we shouldn't put it in at all, I think that it means we need to
try something out and iterate as we learn.

I don't know if "experimental features" have been put into the
language before, ones that actually exist in a release but have
warnings on them that say "things may change as we learn more." But if
not, it seems like this might be the time to start. I think we need
something to express metadata and/or code behavior change and/or
whatever it is that we're really trying to do, but I don't think we'll
figure out what that is until we have something to experiment with --
and change.

Bruce Eckel




From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 09:40:37 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:40:37 +0200
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
	<dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
	<aN5Xc.205341$M95.157379@pd7tw1no>
	<1gj4fb5.607xsc51izh8N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7pjXc.209955$M95.182424@pd7tw1no>
Message-ID: <1gj4tyc.1b7j7n11jb35swN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Martin DeMello <martindemello at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Alex Martelli <aleaxit at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Not leaving stylistic choice (which would lead to more than one obvious
> > way to do it) is quite consonant with the Zen of Python.  Of course one
> > can't always reach what's preferable, but "your main point" which is
> > presumably meant as a criticism of this design choice comes across as
> > praise: the design choice follows the overall design's philosophy.
> 
> I still feel the the One Obvious Way should have been to return self...

When you design your own language, you get to impose in it what's
obvious to _you_ -- or go the Perl way and try to squeeze in as many
different ways to do every single task as possible so everybody's happy
except those who can't stand bloated languages (who'll stick with
Python;-).


> > Guido doesn't like method chaining, so he made a design choice that did
> > not allow method chaining, and did not give several equally obvious ways
> 
> But that's pretty hard to argue with :)

Indeed, it's not meant to be arguable-with;-).  Personally I like method
chaining, but it's clearly not the Python way, and I appreciate
consistency and simplicity more than I appreciate picking and choosing
details of my preferred style.


Alex


From aaronwmail-usenet at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  9 09:44:37 2004
From: aaronwmail-usenet at yahoo.com (Aaron Watters)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 06:44:37 -0700
Subject: Importance of C# (was Re: IronPython-0.6 is now available!)
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>
	<ce9cp3$g39$1@bagan.srce.hr> <5dydnZSDZaARoZXcRVn-ug@powergate.ca>
	<D%8Oc.5753$Z14.6982@news.indigo.ie>
Message-ID: <e16005f9.0408090544.152963f2@posting.google.com>

Alan Kennedy <alanmk at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<D%8Oc.5753$Z14.6982 at news.indigo.ie>...
> ....IMHO, Microsoft have always been masters of the 80/20 rule: making it 
> very simple for users to do 80% of what they want, but leaving them 
> bending over backwards to do the last 20%. Practicality beats purity.
> 
> http://management.about.com/cs/generalmanagement/a/Pareto081202.htm
> 
> But I think MS have done a much better job with the .Net CLR ( == java 
> the virtual machine) and C# ( ~= java the programming language ). They 
> hired lots of clever people, asked them to come up with something 
> java-like, but (better|simpler). The result is, IMHO, quite nice: I 
> felt pretty at home writing C# pretty quickly, mostly because of my 
> java experience....

I felt at home right away primarily because of my Python
experience.  As an exercise I wrote a bplustree implementation

http://bplusdotnet.sourceforge.net

in C#/.NET and translated it to java and python later.  The java
port was the most irritating primarily because java methods cannot
return more than one "new" value (a real pain in the ***).  Another
java irritant was having to declare all the possible exceptions for
all methods (I punted -- everything "throws Exception").  The
python port was a tad bit simpler than the C#
 -- primarily in the derived classes
-- but the speed and safety advantages of type checking in C# were
great advantages.

One of the cooler other things in C# is structs -- which means that C#
can really conveniently be used for high performance numerics, whereas
java can't imo.

Here's hoping mono continues to improve...  -- Aaron Watters

===

nothing exceeds like excess.


From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Mon Aug 16 01:48:26 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:48:26 -0700
Subject: Python secure?
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<ZKRTc.3710$bJ2.23892@news1.mts.net>
	<cforh6$qiv$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <keu5v1-m76.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

M. Clift wrote:
> My reason for choosing Python was one, that it is free, so if my
> efforts amount to nothing I haven't wasted money, two, that it is
> supposed to be an easy language when compared to some others and
> three, that my application when finished, probably wouldn't sell for
> that much and not in any great quantities for me to gamble spending
> something like ?1000 on Visual C / ++ this that and the other or
> whatever.

A simpler answer for you:

The less lines of code you write, the easier it is for someone to
recover how it works and the equivalent of your source code.  This
is true no matter what language is used.

The less lines of code you write, the less bugs there will be and
the less places for bugs to hide.

The less lines of code you write, the sooner you will finish.

The less lines of code you have to write in order to achieve some
functionality, the sooner you will be able to ship your program.

The less lines of code you have, the easier it is to make major
changes such as moving to another platform, using different
toolkits, databases etc

Python will result in you writing less lines of code.  C++/C will
result in you writing more.  Java is another planet where the
Eclipse editor helps by writing some of the code :-)

Since you are not a programmer, here is some friendly advice:

- The LEAST of your issues is going to be people recovering your
  code.  You will have the biggest problems in actually getting
  something that works correctly, especially in the real world.
  Try writing down exactly how you will test your program first.
  Details like what the input and output data will look like,
  values that are out of bounds, whatever users paste in from
  the clipboard, someone typing rapid random junk, input data
  far larger than you anticipated etc.

- Your first program ever will be junk.  After a few years, and
  even possibly months you will look back at it an be amazed.
  It will also be one of the most valuable learning experiences :-)

- Unless you have a perfect specification written down, your first
  version will tend to get things wrong, but help give you an idea
  of what your code should be doing.  This is called prototyping
  and it is best to do it in a way that allows the easiest changes
  to explore new ideas and delete the old ones.

I would advise you to write your first program in Python.  Once
you have something that you know works, can be tested and you
completely understand the problem and solution (as well as
programming :-) then decide what to write the "proper" version
in since you will be in a better position to make value
judgements.

Roger 




From nicksjacobson at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 31 15:54:05 2004
From: nicksjacobson at yahoo.com (Nick Jacobson)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 12:54:05 -0700
Subject: Give * operator "deep copy"
Message-ID: <f8097096.0408311154.ae06a5b@posting.google.com>

This question is with regard to the * operator as used for sequence
concatenation.

There's the well-known gotcha:

a = [[1, 2]]
b = a*3
b[0][0] = 4
print b


Result:
[[4, 2], [4, 2], [4, 2]]

When you wanted:
[[4, 2], [1, 2], [1, 2]]

My question is, since b = a*3 is equivalent to b = a + a + a, why not
use deep copies of a?  That is, let b = a*3 be equivalent to:

b = copy.deepcopy(a) + copy.deepcopy(a) + copy.deepcopy(a)

It seems much more likely that someone would want to create copies of
an item, rather than inserting the same item several times into the
list.


If this has been previously discussed/documented, please point me to
where I can read about it.

Thanks!

--Nick


From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 26 08:50:15 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:50:15 -0400
Subject: building errors with py2exe
In-Reply-To: <d928c3a8.0408260426.3448c1c9@posting.google.com>
References: <d928c3a8.0408260426.3448c1c9@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <5K-dnXUDa4QVQbDcRVn-sQ@powergate.ca>

Intaek LIM wrote:

> once i executed main.exe under 'dist', the result was,
> Traceback <most recent call alst>:
>   File "main.py", line 1, in ?
> AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'auth'

What does that line of code look like?

What happens when you run the program normally, without
using py2exe?

-Peter


From balaji at email.arizona.edu  Wed Aug 11 19:11:46 2004
From: balaji at email.arizona.edu (Balaji)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 16:11:46 -0700
Subject: ImportError: dynamic module does not define init
	function(initmymodule)
Message-ID: <494182a9.0408111511.687d6371@posting.google.com>

I have an c++ header file.

//some_class.h

#ifndef _SOME_CLASS_H_
#define _SOME_CLASS_H_

class SomeClass
{
public:
	int sqr(int a);
};
#endif //_SOME_CLASS_H_

and I have an definition file some_class.C

//some_class.C

#include "some_class.h"


int SomeClass::sqr(int a){
	return a*a;
}
And I have an interface file
%module mytest
%{
#include "some_class.h"
}
%include "some_class.h"

My question is when I try to import mytest in python it does import it
but I'm not able to access the SomeClass..

Can anyone help..

Balaji

 

When I try to conver this into python module by using SWIG I manage to
import


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 13:18:16 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:18:16 +0200
Subject: Proposal for removing self
In-Reply-To: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E90@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E90@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <15B211FE-F84D-11D8-8631-000A95EFAE9E@yahoo.com>


On 2004 Aug 27, at 15:16, Robert Brewer wrote:
    ...
> So are we, Alex. :) I, for one, am glad you're back! I always find your
> commentary illuminating and engaging.

Thanks!  I appreciate your kudos.  I'll steel myself to killfile the 
bad guys rather than wasting my time repeating all the usual arguments 
and ending up leaving c.l.py!-)


Alex



From brett at python.org  Thu Aug 26 01:31:46 2004
From: brett at python.org (Brett C.)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 22:31:46 -0700
Subject: Best processor (i386) for Python performance?
In-Reply-To: <789f72ac.0408251950.e85d23e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgjsk2$le4@odah37.prod.google.com>

In terms of multithreading, an I/O intensive app that is threaded can
make use of dual procs.  Otherwise threaded apps can't for technical
reasons (GIL and such but don't need to get into those details).



From kirk at eyegor.jobsluder.net  Wed Aug 11 16:02:04 2004
From: kirk at eyegor.jobsluder.net (Kirk Job-Sluder)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 20:02:04 GMT
Subject: Paul Graham on Python hackers
References: <cf1p1f$ke0@odak26.prod.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.07.10.51.16.393303@teliko.net>
	<slrncha2q0.1sd3.kirk@eyegor.jobsluder.net>
	<3064b51d.0408090448.31806af5@posting.google.com>
	<coWRc.5083$Wk2.301@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>
	<3064b51d.0408100556.1962ba58@posting.google.com>
	<1a517b5.0408101058.686544b1@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <slrnchkup3.abm.kirk@eyegor.jobsluder.net>

On 2004-08-10, Bryan Olson <bryanjugglercryptographer at yahoo.com> wrote:
> beliavsky at aol.com wrote:
>> I don't know enough about functional programming (FP) to argue. David
>> Mertz wrote some articles on FP in Python -- see
>> http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/library/l-prog.html .
>
> If you've never looked at a real FP language, I recommend it. 
> Mertz is trying to convey the flavor of functional programming 
> to people who know Python.  He doesn't suggest writing non-
> trivial programs that way.  He notes at the end, "I've found it 
> much easier to get a grasp of functional programming in the 
> language Haskell than in Lisp/Scheme."

Ohh, just for the sake of comparison, I spent about 5 hours yesterday
digging around in Haskell, frequently described as one of the more pure
functional languages.

Wow.  Now that is different.  I don't know if I'll ever use it because
much of what I do involves gluing other programs together and I couldn't
get an external command working in Haskell.  But very different.


From schiffo2000 at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 31 08:27:04 2004
From: schiffo2000 at yahoo.com (Barry Schiffman)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 05:27:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: bad bsddb key/values on large data
Message-ID: <20040831122704.91351.qmail@web51401.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Skip Montanaro <skip at pobox.com> wrote:

> From: Skip Montanaro <skip at pobox.com>
> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 21:45:28 -0500
> To: Barry Schiffman <schiffo2000 at yahoo.com>
> CC: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Re: bad bsddb key/values on large data
> 
> 
>     Barry> The largest one, about 200 megs, is
> written, and can be read, and
>     Barry> the strings are correctly formatted --
> but the values attached to
>     Barry> the keys are wrong ...
> 
>     ...
> 
>     Barry> Can anyone tell me if there is such a
> Python problem or a bsddb
>     Barry> problem?
> 
> You didn't say what versions of Berkeley DB or
> Python you are using.  If you
> are using Berkeley DB 1.85, problems are to be
> expected.  Upgrade to a later
> version.
> 
> Skip
> 

My apologies, but I wrote this too soon. 

The chief suspect is an interaction between one of the
hash keys and my code. The entire table is shifted
ahead on the very first key, so the value for key_1 is
saved under key_2, and then so and so forth. The shift
stays constant at one step (so key_n contains the
record for key_n-1). This only happens with one of the
three files. In fact, the code is supposed to reject
many of the records in the input, and does so without
messing up the key/value pairs -- except for this one.

However, I won't be able to check this out until
tonight. 

Anyway, I think the versions are OK (though I'm not
sure if the Sleepcat versions are the same as the
Berkeley versions). I tried this twice under these
setups

Python 2.2.2, Sleepycat 3.3.11 on a PC with RH 7.3
Python 2.3.2, Sleepycat 3.2.9 on a PPC with YDL 2.3

Thanks much.

Barry


	
		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 


From simonb at NOTTHISBIT.webone.com.au  Fri Aug 27 05:21:50 2004
From: simonb at NOTTHISBIT.webone.com.au (Simon Burton)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:21:50 +0100
Subject: 3D geometry module?
References: <412e0951$0$6157$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.27.09.21.50.567436@NOTTHISBIT.webone.com.au>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:01:20 +0100, Will McGugan wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Is there a general purpose 3D geometry module for Python? I would like to
> be able to read / write 3D models and perform per vertex / per face
> operations on them.
> 
> Failing that, are there vector / matrix / quaternion classes I can make
> use of?
> 

cgkit has 3d/4d matrix/vector classes.. and it's fast, if you need that.

Simon.



From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Tue Aug 17 18:20:24 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 18:20:24 -0400
Subject: Databases: Getting values by column name
In-Reply-To: <u62av1-o3k.ln1@pilz.hasos.com>
References: <o6f9v1-6si.ln1@pilz.hasos.com>
	<mailman.1802.1092753679.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<u62av1-o3k.ln1@pilz.hasos.com>
Message-ID: <rpydnSodp-Q1Gb_cRVn-pg@giganews.com>

Robert Ferber wrote:


> I already know the stuff on that page, it's really slowing you down :-(

Your response to Skip Montaro's post demonstrates that
you zipped trough it without paying much attention to what
he said, so I think slowing a bit down would actually help
you here.

As other pointed out you have everything you need, using dtuple.py at:

http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/81252

or db_row at:

http://opensource.theopalgroup.com/

Istvan.


From evan at 4-am.com  Mon Aug 23 13:54:33 2004
From: evan at 4-am.com (Evan Simpson)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:54:33 -0500
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
In-Reply-To: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E26@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E26@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <cgdb2b$4qn$1@sea.gmane.org>

Robert Brewer wrote:
> III. Choosing a keyword

Useless aside:

If I had access to Guido's time machine, I would go back to the 
beginning of Python and brainwash Guido into prefixing all 
keywords-that-introduce-statements with the '@' character.  Adding a new 
statement keyword would then be easy-peasy, Leo would have chosen a 
different character, and Python programs would all look like this:

      @using my_decorator
      @def f(x):
          @if you_think_this_is_ugly or is_silly:
              @print "I agree with you"

Thank goodness I don't have access to it.

Cheers,

Evan @ 4-am



From 5100-46470588-0001 at t-online.de  Wed Aug 18 04:34:20 2004
From: 5100-46470588-0001 at t-online.de (5100-46470588-0001 at t-online.de)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 10:34:20 +0200
Subject: favorite python web development tool?
References: <10i4nttktcvltdd@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <87d61o26b7.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>

mike <ng01.spamguard at icewater.org> writes:


> 
> i'm fairly new to python, coming from a java servlet / velocity
> template background.  i'm looking for a good python web development
> tool, and hope to find some suggestions here.


ZOPE

Klaus Schilling


From mlh at eik.idi.ntnu.no  Mon Aug 23 20:48:11 2004
From: mlh at eik.idi.ntnu.no (Magnus Lie Hetland)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 00:48:11 GMT
Subject: Debunking Art - fraudster with python AI engine?
References: <4128f60b$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>
Message-ID: <412a9047$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>

In article <4128f60b$1 at news.unimelb.edu.au>, Nick wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I recently went to an art exhibition, and one of the artists had an AI
>engine projected onto a screen with a keyboard for visitors to type
>questions in with.
[snip]

Are you sure it wasn't connected to a network (perhaps well hidden)?
In that case the "AI engine" could just be another person sitting
somewhere, snickering... (Turing test, anyone?)

:)

-- 
Magnus Lie Hetland     "Canned Bread: The greatest thing since sliced
http://hetland.org      bread!" [from a can in Spongebob Squarepants]

[ comp.ai is moderated.  To submit, just post and be patient, or if ]
[ that fails mail your article to <comp-ai at moderators.isc.org>, and ]
[ ask your news administrator to fix the problems with your system. ]


From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  9 14:00:58 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 13:00:58 -0500
Subject: Mechwarrior Python Game
In-Reply-To: <f4844ba0.0408090918.745ac713@posting.google.com>
References: <f4844ba0.0408090918.745ac713@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <_YORc.1718$bJ2.10708@news1.mts.net>

Jared wrote:
> Has anybody played the Mechwarrior Miniatures game?  I'm trying to
> represent the game in python.  First thing I need to do is make a
> playing field.  Mechs will move on the playing field based on inches
> to scale in any direction.  Any ideas?

You could check out MegaMek (http://sourceforge.net/projects/megamek/) 
for some ideas (it's written in java, but the games are similar enough).

A lot of people use PyGame (http://www.pygame.org/) for games.  So, 
there might be a project already there that souce can help you.  I know 
there is some games that use hex maps on the project page.

Hope that helps.


From ramen at lackingtalent.com  Sun Aug  8 14:01:29 2004
From: ramen at lackingtalent.com (Dave Benjamin)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 18:01:29 -0000
Subject: JPEG2000 support?
References: <54ubt1-nrn.ln1@lairds.us>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0407251619170.20890-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <slrnchcrhs.dd4.ramen@lackingtalent.com>

In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0407251619170.20890-100000 at ccc6.wpi.edu>, Christopher T King wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Jul 2004, Kyler Laird wrote:
> 
>> I'm getting ready to build an application around a big JPEG2000
>> image but I haven't found any Python support for JPEG2000.
>> 
>> I plan to just use an external call to JasPer to handle the
>> conversion for now but I'd prefer to have a better integrated
>> solution.  Are any Python libraries likely to have support for
>> it soon?  My searches are yielding surprisingly little.
> 
> PyMagick is a Python interface to the powerful, cross-platform ImageMagick
> graphics package, which supports JPEG2000 through an external library.  
> So unlike something like PIL, you'd also need to install ImageMagick
> (compiled with JPEG2000 support) and a JPEG2000 library, but it seems to
> be very well integrated with Python, PIL, and numeric.

Which PyMagick are you referring to?

This one: http://starship.python.net/crew/zack/pymagick/
Or this one: http://pythonmagick.procoders.net/

Pros/cons of each? I've used the one at procoders, but I had problems with
it conflicting with my standalone ImageMagick DLLs (on Windows, of course).
I'm also a bit confused as to the real and practical difference between
"ImageMagick" and "GraphicsMagick".

Thanks,
Dave

-- 
  .:[ dave benjamin: ramen/[sp00] -:- spoomusic.com -:- ramenfest.com ]:.
         "talking about music is like dancing about architecture."


From ian at cottee.org  Sat Aug 21 04:59:41 2004
From: ian at cottee.org (Ian J Cottee)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 17:59:41 +0900
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <ZFoVc.360$MR2.1503@news1.mts.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl> <ZFoVc.360$MR2.1503@news1.mts.net>
Message-ID: <qgfjv1-173.ln1@suse.zobbo.org>

Reid Nichol wrote:
> Gerrit Muller wrote:
> 
>> Roel Schroeven wrote:
>>
>>> Roel Schroeven wrote:
>>>
>>>> I spotted some errors in your list, added new entries, and made a 
>>>> histogram: http://roelschroeven.net/pythonages/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Very cool. It might be good idea to add a date and time at the top, 
>> since new datapoint keep coming in?
> 
> How about labels for the axes as well.
> 
> 
>> and then a quantum leap towards Python.
> 
> You're aware that a quantum leap means a extremely small leap, right?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=quantum%20leap

A dramatic advance, especially in knowledge or method, as in 
Establishing a central bank represents a quantum leap in this small 
country's development. This term originated as quantum jump in the 
mid-1900s in physics, where it denotes a sudden change from one energy 
state to another within an atom. Within a decade it was transferred to 
other advances, not necessarily sudden but very important ones.

Ian


From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz  Mon Aug  2 01:11:32 2004
From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 17:11:32 +1200
Subject: (patch for Bash) try-block and exception
In-Reply-To: <2n27jlFsb5njU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <2n27jlFsb5njU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <2n60o4Frnmp4U1@uni-berlin.de>

William Park wrote:
>     try 
> 	echo a
> 	raise 2
> 	echo b
>     done in
> 	0) echo okey ;;
> 	1) echo raised 1 ;;
> 	2) echo raised 2 ;;
> 	*) echo really bad ;;
>     esac

try...done...esac? What a delightfully eclectic combination
of syntax. :-)

Why doesn't it end with 'yrt'?

-- 
Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept,
University of Canterbury,	
Christchurch, New Zealand
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg


From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Thu Aug 12 16:42:49 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:42:49 +0200
Subject: Decorator "platform"
In-Reply-To: <87zn50nll4.fsf@pobox.com>
References: <2nsoofF49frcU1@uni-berlin.de> <87zn50nll4.fsf@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <2o22htF65snnU10@uni-berlin.de>

John J. Lee wrote:
> Reinhold Birkenfeld <reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net> writes:
> [...]
>> What I have in mind is a sort of "decorator library" where everyone who
>> has written a useful function of that kind can share it with others,
> [...]
> 
> God help us. <0.5 wink>

God IS helping us, or we wouldn't use Python.

Reinhold

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From richardjones at optushome.com.au  Wed Aug  4 17:50:23 2004
From: richardjones at optushome.com.au (richard)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 07:50:23 +1000
Subject: Perl's Crypt::PasswdMD5
References: <ceqoul$ept$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
	<mailman.1124.1091627818.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ceqqtv$hm6$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <41115a1f$0$15279$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>

Bart Nessux wrote:
> Nicolas ?vrard wrote:
>> * Bart Nessux  [15:39 04/08/04 CEST]:
>> 
>>> Does Python have anything similar to Perl's Crypt::PasswdMD5???
>>>
>>> I read about the crypt module... but it only does DES. Any plans to
>>> add md5 or other digests to it in the future?
>> 
>> 
>> http://www.python.org/doc/current/lib/module-md5.html
>> 
>> Try to be lucky with google using this search string : "python md5"
> 
> That's not comparable to Crypt::PasswdMD5

Assume that we're not Perl programmers.


    Richard



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 13:40:28 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 03:40:28 +1000
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
In-Reply-To: <9%JXc.79851$pTn.63106@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<9%JXc.79851$pTn.63106@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040827104074467046@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:15:49 GMT, Dan Perl <dperl at rogers.com> wrote:
> My bad.  Right after posting the message I found the 'Index of Python
> Enhancement Proposals (PEPs)'
> and there is PEP 273, 'Import Modules from Zip Archives', submitted by
> James C. Ahlstrom.  Thank you, Jim!  And there are even two implementations
> already.

Note that the PEP is not up-to-date. zipimport "just works" in Python
2.3 and Python 2.4. In the following example, we use the -v flag to
show where imports are coming from.

bonanza% cat hello.py
def hello():
    print 'hello world'
bonanza% zip hello.zip hello.py 
  adding: hello.py (deflated 8%)
bonanza% rm hello.py
bonanza% python2.4 -v
Python 2.4a2 (#3, Aug 24 2004, 01:25:51) 
[GCC 3.4.0 20040613 (Red Hat Linux 3.4.0-5)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
   ... lots and lots of lines showing default imports snipped ...
>>> import hello
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
ImportError: No module named hello
>>> import sys
>>> sys.path.append('hello.zip')
>>> import hello
# zipimport: found 1 names in hello.zip
dlopen("/usr/local/lib/python2.4/lib-dynload/zlib.so", 2);
import zlib # dynamically loaded from
/usr/local/lib/python2.4/lib-dynload/zlib.so
# zipimport: zlib available
import hello # loaded from Zip hello.zip/hello.py
>>> hello.hello()
hello world

At least on this box (linux) there's even a zip file on the default sys.path!

Anthony


From pythongnome at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 18 19:57:19 2004
From: pythongnome at hotmail.com (Lucas Raab)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 23:57:19 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<du7wtzwfb8b.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>
Message-ID: <z1SUc.2114$2L3.1132@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>

Quite a few of Python's community member's is 45+. That sort of surprised
me. But don't get the impression that I thought everybody here was in their
20's and 30's.

"Ville Vainio" <ville at spammers.com> wrote in message
news:du7wtzwfb8b.fsf at lehtori.cc.tut.fi...
> 27 years, 4 of them with awareness of how much the other languages I
> have/had to work with suck.
>
> BTW, even though usenet might not really scale all that well for this
> kind of thread, it's been delightful to see how so many are still
> actively hacking at a respectable age. It really sets an example for
> us younger ones, some of whom are possibly worried about how to
> preserve the energy level of youth and whether they can still hack it
> when they "grow up".
>
> I'm also optimistic about retiring with Python, because *everyone* is
> going to retire with Python in 2044 :-).
>
> -- 
> Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb




From porky_pig_jr at my-deja.com  Wed Aug 18 20:08:59 2004
From: porky_pig_jr at my-deja.com (Porky Pig Jr)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 17:08:59 -0700
Subject: IDLE under Cygwin doesn't show toolbar menu
Message-ID: <56cfb0e3.0408181608.25371f2a@posting.google.com>

Just downloaded and installed the latest Cygwin distribution which
includes python 2.3.4. IDLE runs fine but for some reason the toolbar
menu doesn't show up.
Like, by default, it starts shell window, but no toolbar. If I type

idle foobar.py

it brings both shell and editor windows, but once again, no toolbar on
either window -- which renders the edtior quite disfunctional.

Just want to check if anyone else ever ran into this problem and what
was the workaround -- before I contact Cygwin folks.

TIA.


From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Aug 11 05:53:21 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:53:21 +0200
Subject: how to dispatch objects depending on their class
References: <4118dd4a$1@maser.urz.unibas.ch>
	<cfap3b$3ag$06$1@news.t-online.com> <4119d60b@maser.urz.unibas.ch>
Message-ID: <cfcqah$kvq$03$1@news.t-online.com>

Curzio Basso wrote:

> Peter Otten wrote:
> 
>> func_dict = {A: do_something_with_A,
>>              B: do_something_with_B}
>> def func(obj):
>>     func_dict[obj.__class__](obj)
> 
> ok. it tested and it works. thanks.
> 
> now I have only to check if the Visitor Pattern is not more appropriate.

I'd say the choice of the dispatch mechanism - dictionary lookup vs Duncan
Booth's name-mangling - is independent of the question whether the visitor
pattern applies. Duncan's setup would then become something like

class VisitorMixin:
    def accept(self, visitor):
        visitor.dispatch[self.__class__](self)

class Visitor:
    def __init__(self):
        self.dispatch = {A: self.visit_A, B: self.visit_B}
    def visit_A(self, a):
        pass
    def visit_B(self, b):
        pass


Peter



From paul at subsignal.org  Mon Aug 23 05:42:33 2004
From: paul at subsignal.org (paul k)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:42:33 +0200
Subject: python doesn't like my numbers
In-Reply-To: <OH8Wc.25529$Z14.8011@news.indigo.ie>
References: <2osfspFdnjbcU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<OH8Wc.25529$Z14.8011@news.indigo.ie>
Message-ID: <2otsg8Fe7eo2U1@uni-berlin.de>

Alan Kennedy wrote:
> [paul k]

> Answer 1: Use strings: that's really what telephone numbers should be
Yea, should have done this in the first place...

> 
> Answer 2: Use valid octal digits in your phone numbers. The digit '8' 
> cannot appear in base 8 numbers, only the digits 0-7.
I  can't change reality (yet) ;)

thanks for all your comments
  Paul


From mahesh at privacy.net  Sun Aug 29 19:09:44 2004
From: mahesh at privacy.net (Mahesh Padmanabhan)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:09:44 -0600
Subject: Generator expressions v/s list comprehensions
References: <mahesh-525B07.12195528082004@individual.net>
	<1gj8y77.6qshr41q531veN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<mahesh-7E265C.14093428082004@individual.net>
	<87llfywooz.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
Message-ID: <mahesh-F76AD6.17094429082004@individual.net>

In article <87llfywooz.fsf at sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>,
 Isaac To <iketo2 at netscape.net> wrote:

[snip]

Thanks Isaac for providing such a detailed explanation. I understand now 
why generator expressions make more sense. 

I just wish that generator expressions had been designed into the 
language without going the way of list comprehension -> generator 
expressions.


From cjw at sympatico.ca  Sat Aug 21 22:08:02 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 22:08:02 -0400
Subject: J2 decorator grammar
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2127.1093132732.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2127.1093132732.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2eTVc.41891$Tr.2137366@news20.bellglobal.com>



Michael Sparks wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Robert Brewer wrote:
> ...
> 
>>Did you ever fix the scope issue?
> 
> 
> I've fixed the scoping issue.
> 
> I'll clean up the changes I made to get a minimal patch against 2.4a2, and
> then put it somewhere handy. Now that I've got a much clearer idea of how
> the python source tree hangs together adding in the short form should be
> relatively simple.
> 
> The current patch uses "decorate" as the keyword. Changing that of course
> is utterly trivial - it's also something I think *should* be changed.
> 
> The reason for suggesting this change is for one simple reason - python
> makes often use of the idiom "decorate-dosomething-undecorate" - eg in
> sorting. Using decorate would probably clash heavily with people's code.
> 
> The closest word that strikes me that has a similar meaning to
> decorate, using and applying would be "decorating". If anyone has
> a closer suggestion to a short single word meaning "decorate using",
> it'd be great.
Since the action on the function (or [perhaps class) is transformative 
rather than decorative, would transform be a more appropriate word?
> 
Colin W.
> 
>>Might it have something to do with:
>>static void
>>symtable_node(struct symtable *st, node *n)
>>{
> 
> 
> It certainly did! Your suggested change was necessary, however it was
> incomplete - the child to traverse also needed changing. (I really
> should've thought of that sooner - of course it's no longer zero! :)
> 
> ie this
> 
>>                      symtable_node(st, CHILD(n, 0));
> 
> Becomes:
> 
>>                      symtable_node(st, CHILD(n, 4));
> 
> 
> So THANK YOU for pointing out this part of the code :)
> 
> Currently I have a file that looks like this, which is completely legal,
> and does what you would expect for this syntax:
> ----
> def memoise(f):
>    return f
> 
> class Foo:
>    decorate:
>       staticmethod
>    def Hoo(who):
>       print "You", who
>       if 1:
>          decorate:
>             memoise
>          def Print(what):
>             print "Ya", what
> 
>          Print(who)
> 
> Foo.Hoo("HOO!")
> ----
> 
> No matter what syntax we end up with, all of these syntactic sugar changes
> rely on the original decorator code, and I've been very pleasantly
> suprised at just how clean (and well documented) the python source is for
> a project of it's size.
> 
> As I say I'll post the cleaned up patch later.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> Michael.
> 
> 



From twanger at bluetwanger.de  Tue Aug 10 07:37:52 2004
From: twanger at bluetwanger.de (Markus Bertheau)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:37:52 +0200
Subject: Multiple inheritance with a common base class
Message-ID: <1092137872.2624.16.camel@dicaprio.akademie1.de>

Hi,

I don't quite get the paragraph in the docs about this. Here it is:

"A well-known problem with multiple inheritance is a class derived from
two classes that happen to have a common base class. While it is easy
enough to figure out what happens in this case (the instance will have a
single copy of ``instance variables'' or data attributes used by the
common base class), it is not clear that these semantics are in any way
useful."

If it's so easy to figure out, what is a problem then? And what should
the comment about usefulness suggest?

Thanks

-- 
Markus Bertheau <twanger at bluetwanger.de>



From bitshadow at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 12 20:05:34 2004
From: bitshadow at yahoo.com (Michael Scarlett)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 17:05:34 -0700
Subject: Why I love python.
Message-ID: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>

There is an amazing article by paul graham about python, and an even
better discussion about it on slashdot. The reason I point this out,
is the more I read both articles, the more I realised how we would be
mutilating the language with that god forsaken @ decorator.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I learned python and fell in
love with its syntax and simplicity. Python - just works. So please
GVR. Don't complicate it. Leave it as is. Work on making it faster,
not uglier. Work on - in some cases - better algorithms for certain
modules, not for it to even closely resemble C or perl or god knows
whateverotherlanguagethereisoutthere. Am i the only one with a
visceral reaction to this thing???

paul Graham article: http://www.paulgraham.com/pypar.html

Slashdot discussion:
http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/04/08/12/1721239.shtml?tid=156&tid=218


From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 07:37:14 2004
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 04:37:14 -0700
Subject: XMLObject - problem with recursive definitions
References: <6f402501.0408222323.5fd81b2a@posting.google.com>
	<Xns954E5D4C8E862jreeder@63.223.5.95>
Message-ID: <6f402501.0408240337.7a88e5d@posting.google.com>

rzed <jello at comics.com> wrote in message 
[snip..]
> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1" ?>
> <thing abit="Hello My Friend">
>   <thing abit="Recursion Test">
>     <anotherthing abit="Yo Again"/>
>   </thing>
>   <anotherthing abit="Yo"/>
> </thing>
> 
> 
> ... but this was based on the latest XMLObject. Maybe it's been 
> patched in response to your message?



Yeah - the new release 0.1.2 corrects the problem.
It's the first XML library I've used. I'm using it for both reading
and writing data structures as XML rather than a general XML
parser...... but it's very easy to use.

Regards,


Fuzzy

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html


From michele.simionato at gmail.com  Tue Aug 10 10:07:04 2004
From: michele.simionato at gmail.com (Michele Simionato)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 07:07:04 -0700
Subject: Importance of C# (was Re: IronPython-0.6 is now available!)
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>	<ce9cp3$g39$1@bagan.srce.hr>
	<5dydnZSDZaARoZXcRVn-ug@powergate.ca>	<1n5z28erh2m3u.dlg@baczek.net.invalid>	<FvCdnVnESJR0ZpXcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.921.1091114694.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<537ea4cd.0408070757.14790cfe@posting.google.com>
	<41155c78$0$4348$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<144d0df.0408092156.1455f2af@posting.google.com>
	<1o2ouxh30essi.1eewz4ary5xj3.dlg@40tude.net>
Message-ID: <4edc17eb.0408100607.d620f9b@posting.google.com>

Lawrence Oluyede <raims at dot.com> wrote in message news:<1o2ouxh30essi.1eewz4ary5xj3.dlg at 40tude.net>...
> In data 9 Aug 2004 22:56:55 -0700, grv575 ha scritto:
> 
> >  Really MI
> > causes more issues and confusion than it solves.
> 
> Do you know about Python new style classes and MRO?

Even knowing about the MRO MI can be painful. Actually,
after fighting with MI in Zope I am starting to hate
it ... :-(


     Michele Simionato


From chris.cavalaria at free.fr  Fri Aug 20 20:26:42 2004
From: chris.cavalaria at free.fr (Christophe Cavalaria)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 02:26:42 +0200
Subject: decorator J4 - any objections?
References: <cab22418.0408201006.16f163b2@posting.google.com>
	<H5ydnQFIZezZH7vcRVn-iQ@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <412696c2$0$22032$626a14ce@news.free.fr>

Larry Bates wrote:

> If docstring can be a special case of a triple quoted
> string, I don't see why decorators couldn't be a special
> case of a dictionary.
> 
> def func(arg1, arg2):
>     {'version': 'Added in 2.4',
>      'returns': None,
>      'docstring': 'Docstring could be here, or in decorator part above'}
>      """Docstring could be here, or in decorator part above"""
> 
> or perhaps:
> 
> 
> def func(arg1, arg2):
>     #
>     # Similiar to class __dict__
>     #
>     __decorators__=__{'version': 'Added in 2.4',
>                       'returns': None,
>                       'docstring': 'Docstring could be here, or in
>                       decorator
> part above'}
>     """Docstring could be here, or in decorator part above"""
> 
> 
> I'm sure there is a reason, but it would seem to make
> "Python"-sense to me.  It would then be very extensible
> for the meta-data that everyone seems to also want decorators
> to support.

Maybe because decorators aren't just function properties but functions that
transform the function they receive in parameter. Therefore, that proposal
doesn't solve the problem at hand. It's a bad solution.

How would you do the staticmethod ou the memoize with that proposal ?



From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Fri Aug 13 09:14:20 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:14:20 GMT
Subject: Python and Weather.com
References: <6491b0ab.0408121917.5103b770@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <M83Tc.9136$MD.2873@fe1.texas.rr.com>

"Fazer" <faizans at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6491b0ab.0408121917.5103b770 at posting.google.com...
> Hello,
>
> I made a small python script that gives the current weather conditions
> of a city that you give as an argument.  Here's the basic function
> behind it:
>
> I am really a beginnering when it comes to parsing XML but I just used
> split to get the values I wanted.  Any ideas how I can use proper XML
> parsing techniques?
>
> Also, the weather degree is in celcius but I conver it to fahrenheit
> as well. :-)
>
> Here's the code:
>
> # Get the weather for the city specified
> def get_weather(city):
> #city = city.replace(" ", "%20")
> w = urllib.urlopen("http://xoap.weather.com/search/search?where=%s" %
> city.replace(" ", "%20")).read()
> # Check if there were matches
> if not city.isalpha() or w.find("loc") < 0:
> return "No matches found for city of " + city + "!"
>
> # If so, use the first search result and use it
> city = w.split("</loc>", 1)[0].split("<loc")[1].split(">")[1]
> # Get location id of the first city
> locid = w.split("</loc>", 1)[0].split("<loc")[1].split('"', 2)[1]
> # Get weather readings
> weather =
urllib.urlopen("http://xoap.weather.com/weather/local/%s?cc=*&prod=xoap&par=
xxx&key=xxx&unit=m"
> %
> locid).read()
> # Get conditions
> reading = weather.split("</t>")[0].split("<t>")[1]
> # Get temperature
> temp = weather.split("</tmp>")[0].split("<tmp>")[1]
> if "N/A" in temp:
> return "Error"
> else:
> temp = int(temp)
>
> return "Weather for %s is %s C / %s F and %s" % (city,temp,(temp *
> 1.8) + 32,reading)
>
>
> Hope it helps anyone out there.  Please feel free to fix anything I
> may have done wrong.  Comments greatly appreciated!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Faizan S.

Since you asked about other approaches to parsing, here is a pyparsing
rendition of something very similar.  I find it a little easier to follow
(and update later) than code with many splits and index references with
special number offsets.

The pyparsing package includes a few other similar examples, such as one
which extracts a list of NTP servers from NIST's web site.

Download pyparsing at http://pyparsing.sourceforge.net .

-- Paul

----------------------------
# getTemp.py
#
# Demonstration of the pyparsing module, doing a simple pattern match
# from an HTML page retrieved using urllib
#
# Copyright 2004, by Paul McGuire
#
from pyparsing import Word, Literal, nums
import urllib

city = "Austin, TX"

# define pattern to match within the HTML
# temperature is given in a string of the form:
#        <br><br>67&deg;F<BR>(19&deg;C)
# we want to locate this string within the page, and extract
# the values 67 and 19
makeInt = lambda s,l,t: int(t[0])
integer = Word(nums).setParseAction( makeInt )
currentTempPattern = \
    "<br><br>" + \
    integer.setResultsName("F") + "&deg;F<br>(" + \
    integer.setResultsName("C") + "&deg;C)"

# get current weather for given zip code
noaaURL = "http://www.srh.noaa.gov/zipcity.php?inputstring=%s" %
urllib.quote(city)
weatherPage = urllib.urlopen( noaaURL )
weatherReport = weatherPage.read()
weatherPage.close()

# now use scanString to return a generator of matching patterns, and
# invoke next() to get the first (and expected to be only) matching string
try:
    temps,startloc,endloc = currentTempPattern.scanString(
weatherReport ).next()
except StopIteration:
    print "Could not extract temperature data from", noaaURL
else:
    print "Current temp at %s is %d\xb0F (%d\xb0C)" % \
            ( city, temps.F, temps.C )

-----------------------------------
Output (this morning):
Current temp at Austin, TX is 66?F (19?C)




From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sun Aug  8 21:46:54 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 11:46:54 +1000
Subject: PEP-0318
In-Reply-To: <roy-F54794.21390508082004@reader1.panix.com>
References: <41122FC2.1080608@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1251.1091764482.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4114152f@nntp.zianet.com> <aIOdnRybBucMsIncRVn-gA@comcast.com>
	<4116bc20$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<mailman.1369.1092015284.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-F54794.21390508082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040808184630c74807@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 21:39:05 -0400, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> In article <mailman.1369.1092015284.5135.python-list at python.org>,
>  Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > def doc(docstring):
> >     def add_doc_string(func, docstring=docstring):
> >         func.__doc__ = docstring
> >         return func
> >     return add_doc_string
> 
> I don't understand the "docstring=docstring" in the argument list for
> add_doc_string.  I suspect there's something subtle going on with scope
> rules, but I don't see it.

Oops, habit, from before Python had nested scopes. You don't need it
these days.


From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  6 17:13:26 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 17:13:26 -0400
Subject: @decorators
In-Reply-To: <10h7qlg5adbfj86@news.supernews.com>
References: <d22692a3.0408052234.7230fd74@posting.google.com>
	<roy-B53A92.08194306082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<10h73e5kh1et536@news.supernews.com> <4113e5be@nntp.zianet.com>
	<10h7qlg5adbfj86@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <4113f477$1@nntp.zianet.com>

John Roth wrote:
> Since I wrote that, I managed to read the new, improved
> and rewritten PEP, and discovered that the new syntax
> doesn't allow parameters.

Sigh. My knowledge is SO last night...

> So it can't be used as a replacement
> for the property() built-in function, and it therefore also can't
> be used for the DBC functionality. As delivered, it's strictly
> a replacement for the classmethod and staticmethod
> builtin functions (and any other module or builtins that
> take one parameter, of course.)

Right. But people are still chasing after parameterized decorators, 
which is why I included the example.

Personally, I think that we will never have a "one size fits all" 
solution here, other than the one we *already* have. When doing 
something truly unusual, I see nothing wrong with using the existing 
(foo = bar(foo, baz)) syntax to do it. Syntactic sugar is about making 
common cases easier, not about providing everything for everyone.

> Guido's stated reasoning was that he had "a bad feeling"
> about allowing more general expressions. So do I.
> From what people are saying that's substantive (rather
> than syntactic) I think that there are a number of very
> different desires on the table, and it's not at all clear
> either what they are or how they combine.

Agreed. Along the same lines, I read a post elsewhere which reminded us 
that we can always *relax* the restrictions later, once we understand 
what we actually want. Sage advise.

> He's been through it before. Remember PEP 308?

I try not to... :)

   -- Mark


From Kyler at news.Lairds.org  Thu Aug 19 23:09:10 2004
From: Kyler at news.Lairds.org (Kyler Laird)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 03:09:10 GMT
Subject: Merging pdf documents with Python
References: <mailman.1965.1092927979.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <805gv1-cq1.ln1@lairds.us>

"Daryl Middleton" <dmidd at chartermi.net> writes:

>Can python be used to merge pdf documents into a single pdf file so that I
>do not have to manually insert each one. Thanks

I was using a free version of PageCatcher (ReportLab) for awhile
(after using PJscript and Ghostscript).  My projects manipulate
PDF submitted by hundreds of people so any incompatibility is
likely to be a problem.  ReportLab couldn't handle everything we
got last year so I started searching again.

I ended up with iText.
	http://itext.sourceforge.net/
It has been very solid.  There was a problem once but it was
quickly fixed.
	http://groups.google.com/groups?q=itext+kyler&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=v8vqk1-0k5.ln1%40snout.lairds.org&rnum=3

I usually hate using Java but I don't mind using iText through
Jython.  When I use it from Zope I use os.system like this.
	command = 'java -cp /var/lib/zope/instance/default/Extensions/itext-paulo-130.jar com.lowagie.tools.concat_pdf ' + string.join(piece_names) + ' ' + result_name

I'm quite happy with iText.  I like that it's Free and well-
maintained.  Being usable from Jython is a real bonus.

--kyler


From alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 17 20:32:20 2004
From: alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 17:32:20 -0700
Subject: what wrong with this program?
Message-ID: <8f17f4bc.0408171632.787eb6f8@posting.google.com>

The following program is supposed to display a dropdown menu, however,
it only shows the File and Help things.

from Tkinter import *

root = Tk()

#create menu
m = Menu(root)
root.config(menu=m)

filemenu = Menu(m)
m.add_cascade(label="File", menu="filemenu")
filemenu.add_command(label="New", command=callback)
filemenu.add_separator()
filemenu.add_command(label="Quit", command=callback)

helpmenu = Menu(m)
m.add_cascade(label="Help", menu="helpmenu")
helpmenu.add_command(label="About...", command=callback)

root.mainloop()

please help fix this program.


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 14 18:16:00 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 18:16:00 -0400
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <56cfb0e3.0408141404.1d0057b8@posting.google.com>
References: <9ADC3170-EDAF-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>	<mailman.1652.1092490554.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<56cfb0e3.0408141404.1d0057b8@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfm2v1$akt$1@sea.gmane.org>

Porky Pig Jr wrote:
> Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote in message > class Foo:
> 
>>    def blah(a, b):         # this is clearly a static method
>>       pass
>>
>>    def blah(self, a, b):   # this is clearly an instance method
>>       pass
>>
>>    def blah(klass, a, b):  # this is clearly a class method
>>       pass
>>
>>Python was built (successfully) on the assumption that obvious 
>>interpretations of the code obviate the need for declarations.  Why 
>>wouldn't we continue with that mindset?
>>
>>Paul
> 
> 
> I don't think it's a good example. 'self' is a convention, not the
> reserved word. Nothing can prevent anyone from using some other word.
> Strictly speaking, the fact that the first parameter is called 'self'
> does not imply anything. Ditto for 'klass' (or rather 'cls' which is
> used by the number of references). Again, it's not a reserved word.
> What if I've decided to use parameter name 'cls' in static function? 
> What if I've decided to use 'this' instead of 'self'? So - either we
> need some mechanism to enforce the keywords 'self', 'cls', or -- we
> back to square one: we need decorators.

Not for this kind of thing we don't.  The system could enforce the 
convention.  Or the 'object' class could.  See the thread here entitled 
  antiDecorator metaclass for a demonstration of how this could be done.



From lonetwin at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 05:31:08 2004
From: lonetwin at gmail.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:01:08 +0530
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl>
Message-ID: <5a309bd304082002311afcb6d@mail.gmail.com>

Since this thread is certain to become something of a c.l.p lore, I'll
do my bit ...
Age: 26

I started out as a systems administrator, which required me to learn
shell scripting, I soon became a scripting nut, parsing conf files,
writing admin tools etc..., it didn't take me too long before I began
aching for a more ^expressive^ language, looked at perl, but that
appeared expressive only in the way slang is expressive for most
teenagers.
     A programmer friend suggested python and it was then that I found
the language that I could write script poetry in. Before I realized
it, I was looking for python programmer jobs. Since I had decided to
give up my System Admin. status for that of a programmer, I learned C
and C++ (thanks to my python knowledge, I actually understood what I
was supposed to be doing :)).
    Now I am a happy coder, working for a linux+python shop, doing
almost 90% of my work in python.

I guess the time has come for me to say this:
'A BIG THANK YOU' - to GvR and The Folks, for contributing to my state
of happiness.

Regards
Steve


From alienoid at is.lg.ua  Tue Aug  3 18:42:33 2004
From: alienoid at is.lg.ua (Ruslan)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 01:42:33 +0300
Subject: python + byte array
Message-ID: <1091572953.7095.8.camel@dev.is.lg.ua>

Hi, everybody.

I use win32com package to call WinHTTP COM methods.
One of them is 'Send'. I can pass string parameter to 'Send' method from
python - it's OK, but to send binary data i need somehow pass in 'Send'
method data of _byte array_ type(Visual Basic type). Does anybody know
how to mimic that 'byte array' type of Visual Basic in Python (i need to
pass big chunks of binary data in 'Send')?
I tried struct.pack, but that doesn't seem to be an option.

Thanks in advance.
Your help is very appreciated.

Best regards,
Ruslan



From luismg at gmx.net  Sun Aug 22 10:36:37 2004
From: luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 07:36:37 -0700
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
Message-ID: <278de0e.0408220636.3ee25f9d@posting.google.com>

> What makes you think speed is Python's primary limitation for mainstream
> acceptance?

Why would someone reject to use a language that is clean, very well
designed, intuitive, expresive, flexible and a pleasure to use?
Perhaps the fact that i is 100 times slower than c...


From paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it  Wed Aug 25 06:59:04 2004
From: paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it (Paolo Veronelli)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:59:04 +0200
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <412C70F8.6020501@yahoo.it>



Steven Bethard wrote:
> Paul Morrow <pm_mon <at> yahoo.com> writes:

>>So why don't they share a similar syntax?
>>
>>    class Foo:
>>       """ This is the docstring for class Foo. """
>>       __metaclass__ = M
>>       # body of class goes here
>>
>>
>>    def baz():
>>       """ This is the docstring for function baz. """
>>       __features__ = synchronized, memoized
>>       # body of function goes here.
> 
> 

> 
> So the basic answer is that decorators are different from metaclasses because 
> the code inside the funcdef block is executed when the function is /called/, 
> while the code inside the classdef is executed when the class is /declared/.
> 
This can be seen as an engine choice and IMO is very far from touching 
the syntax issue.
Still I posted a question before:

Is not time to put order in the possible uses of __xxx__ with a job on 
classifying them and stop looking for a better role for BDFL?

Proposals:

1) Ban a "just because I'm free of doing it" use of them as 
settable/gettable attributes (in place of  non special meanings attributes)
   (optional actually)

2)One or more builtin classes (interfaces)  useful to build their 
significance,with a previous work on classifying possible levels of 
interpreter instructioning:
	a) Syntactical level:
		_1) (re)defining operators code
		_2) ......
	b)  Allocational level:
		__init__,__new__,__metaclass__ ....????
	c)  Decorational:
		.........
	d) Globalish:
		__name__,....
	d)  Whatelsetional ......
		
		Good meditation to all Paolino






From tim.hochberg at ieee.org  Thu Aug 26 14:15:38 2004
From: tim.hochberg at ieee.org (Tim Hochberg)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:15:38 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <gqudnRoo8q-Cg7PcRVn-tA@comcast.com>
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>	<mailman.2455.1093539321.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<gqudnRoo8q-Cg7PcRVn-tA@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <cgl9ce$gt0$1@sea.gmane.org>

Doug Holton wrote:

> Tim Hochberg wrote:
> 
>> I also have a weak preference for 'per' over 'using', FWIW. The 
>> shortness of 'per' is one virtue. Another is that, because it's 
>> slightly obscure, it may be easier to indoctrinate users that 
>> 'per...def' is the correct order, not 'def...per'. For me at least 
>> it's 'obvious' that if 'using...def' works then so should 
>> 'def...using', which of course it can't. The order is amenable to 
>> memorization, but I still anticipate more thinkos of this type from 
>> using than from per. On the downside, per may be extremely obscure to 
>> those that are neither native speakers of English or one of the 
>> romance languages.
> 
> 
> Even in common English usage, "per" usually comes in the middle of a
> phrase, not the beginning, like "miles per hour" or "Changes were made
> to the manuscript per the author's instructions"  (people would more 
> commonly use the phrase "according to" rather than "per" there).

   Per the author's instructions, changes were made.
   Changes were made per the author's instructions.

   Using only hand tools, we built the treehouse.
   We built the treehouse using only hand tools.

Both of 'per' and 'using' (and most of the other keyword options that 
aren't really horrible) have a bias for being read backwards. My 
contention was that since 'per' is probably a bit less familiar it would 
be easier to beat the nonstandard order into ones head.

> None of those uses bare any resemblance to how decorators affect
> functions.  

I don't agree. Or at least I don't agree that:

   per:
      instructions
   def func():
      ...

Is any worse a model for what's going on than:

   using:
      functions
   def func():
      ...

Neither's great, both are suggestive of what's going on. Unless we use:

   use_the_following_functions_to_transform_the_subsequent_def

It's going  to be pretty hard to get something that's much more than 
suggestive.

 > "per:" by itself on a line is pretty much meaningless.
 > Looks more like you misspelled pre.

If "pre:" was legal Python, I certainly wouldn't support 'per:'. While 
'per' may in fact be too obscure, and that's legitimate point to argue, 
I'm not sure that arguing about how it reads out of context is all that 
relevant. Whatever keyword is chosen, I  expect it to be fairly close to 
the subsequent def.


> If people are liking Latin keywords for decorators now, why not "sic"?

It's even vauger than per. I'll give it that. When I was young, I was 
too lazy to look it up, so I backronymed this into Spelling 
Intentionally Compromised. In retrospect, this probably fits the real 
usage better than the Latin, so no harm done.

-rim






From Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com  Mon Aug  9 07:37:07 2004
From: Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com (Ames Andreas (MPA/DF))
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 13:37:07 +0200
Subject: q about cgi.FieldStorage
Message-ID: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA21@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>

Hi,

Tim Roberts wrote:

> Not in its raw form.  The stream comes from Apache and evaporates as
> it is read.  If you need to raw data, just forget about
> cgi.FieldStorage and read stdin directly.  You can always copy it to
> a temp file or StringIO and feed it back to the cgi module later.

thanks for confirming this.  The only problem I see with your
suggestion, or rather with the implementation, is that the caller has
seemingly no control over whether FieldStorage writes the input to
disk once more or not.


cheers,

andreas



From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Aug 10 18:52:05 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (simo)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 15:52:05 -0700
Subject: wxPython & redirecting stderr
References: <wp6Sc.209539$Ur.10556482@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
Message-ID: <30260531.0408101452.76e424fa@posting.google.com>

"flupke" <flupke at nonexistingdomain.com> wrote:

> i'm developing an app in wxPython but when i have an error in the
> wxPython code i've written, the app starts, an extra windows is
> opened where the error messages are print and then it closes
> again. Off course, this is to fast for the human eye to read :)
> How can i avoid this and have the wxPython messages arrive at the
> console just like the "normal" python error messages?

As I recall it has something to do with how you call MainLoop - I
think it's the 0 below, maybe you have 1 or nothing?

app = MyApp(0)
app.MainLoop()


From rebelgeekz at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 10 11:41:29 2004
From: rebelgeekz at hotmail.com (RebelGeekz)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 08:41:29 -0700
Subject: Decorators proposal
Message-ID: <19b62f17.0408100741.7f2712ac@posting.google.com>

Just my humble opinion:

def bar(low,high):
    meta:
        accepts(int,int)
        returns(float)
    #more code

Use a metadata section, no need to introduce new messy symbols, or
mangling our beloved visual cleanliness of python.

Please, let common sense guide your passion.

"When in doubt, copy python"

;-)


From roy at panix.com  Sun Aug 22 10:15:36 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 10:15:36 -0400
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
Message-ID: <roy-37CEFC.10153622082004@reader1.panix.com>

In article <cg94oc$2e6$1 at panix3.panix.com>, aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) 
wrote:

> In article <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129 at posting.google.com>,
> Neuruss <luismg at gmx.net> wrote:
> >
> >It seems there are quite a few projects aimed to improve Python's
> >speed and, therefore, eliminate its main limitation for mainstream
> >acceptance.
> 
> What makes you think speed is Python's primary limitation for mainstream
> acceptance?

Speed is the primary limitation for mainstream acceptance of high level 
(aka scripting) languages in general.  I can think of no reason why so 
much software is still written in languages like C++ other than 
performance (or at least, the perception of it).


From grv575 at hotmail.com  Tue Aug  3 21:53:47 2004
From: grv575 at hotmail.com (grv)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 01:53:47 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Code density
References: <ec6dce8b.0406131216.2b115ec2@posting.google.com>
	<ouGdnfxc8qBMO1DdRVn-tw@powergate.ca>
	<ec6dce8b.0406171655.2e7c4713@posting.google.com>
	<95aa1afa.0406172240.651a443d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <953AD96BBidtoken@128.91.2.239>

michele.simionato at poste.it (Michele Simionato) wrote in
<95aa1afa.0406172240.651a443d at posting.google.com>: 

>j_mckitrick at bigfoot.com (j_mckitrick) wrote in message
>news:<ec6dce8b.0406171655.2e7c4713 at posting.google.com>... 
>> Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message > Blank lines are a
>> readability tool as much as clear indentation is. 
>> > Depending on the definition of "sparingly", this may be the one
>> > piece of Guido's advice that we've ever ignored... :-)
>> 
>> I've found myself using even more blank lines in python than C++.  But
>> if you look at BitTorrent, for example, the author claims blank lines
>> are a nuisance.  He writes very dense code, but I wonder if it would
>> be easily maintainable by anyone besides him.
>> 
>> 
>> jonathon
>
>He also does not use docstrings. I think BitTorrent code is not
>typical
>in this respect. Look at the code in the standard library if you want
>to see how the core Python developer write. Reading the modules
>written by Tim Peters
>is especially entertaining (lots of <winks> and LOL remarks ;)
>I also would take them as examples when teaching clarity in coding.
>
>
>               Michele Simionato
>

Depends on your style really.  A comment to the right of the piece of code 
or above it if it's describing more than 1 step, serves the same purpose as 
breaking atomic groups of code with whitespace.  Plus then you have a 
concise comment which can be read much faster than figuring out 4-5 lines 
of python mentally.


From dave at pythonapocrypha.com  Mon Aug 30 14:10:08 2004
From: dave at pythonapocrypha.com (Dave Brueck)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 12:10:08 -0600
Subject: Size of a remote URL
In-Reply-To: <cgvo5j$r60@odah37.prod.google.com>
References: <cgvo5j$r60@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <41336D80.2070501@pythonapocrypha.com>

Justin wrote:
> How does Internet Explorer and other browsers do it?  I have tried
> doing a Save As on multiple files that I know do not return a
> content-length header and yet it still knows the size and creates a
> progress bar?

How about posting a URL? I'd be happy to try it out for you.

Also note that IE is notorious for "lying" to the user about progress - on page 
loads for example, their progress bar often moves even after your net connection 
has gone down. Not sure if they're doing that on the file download progress bar, 
but it's something to be aware of.



From peter.maas at mplusr.de  Wed Aug 18 14:10:46 2004
From: peter.maas at mplusr.de (Peter Maas)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:10:46 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <cg05vv$cnn$1@swifty.westend.com>

Lucas Raab wrote:
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? 

48.16

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Maas,  M+R Infosysteme,  D-52070 Aachen,  Tel +49-241-93878-0
E-mail 'cGV0ZXIubWFhc0BtcGx1c3IuZGU=\n'.decode('base64')
-------------------------------------------------------------------


From reply.in.the.newsgroup at my.address.is.invalid  Wed Aug 18 06:35:55 2004
From: reply.in.the.newsgroup at my.address.is.invalid (Rene Pijlman)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:35:55 +0200
Subject: favorite python web development tool?
References: <10i4nttktcvltdd@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <n6c6i0pk2ae20eir81l24cbg85ld2oqlum@4ax.com>

mike:
>i'm fairly new to python, coming from a java servlet / velocity template 
>background.  i'm looking for a good python web development tool, and 
>hope to find some suggestions here.

Webware hasn't been mentioned yet :-)

-- 
Ren? Pijlman


From srumbalski at copper.net  Sun Aug  1 16:03:46 2004
From: srumbalski at copper.net (Steven Rumbalski)
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 16:03:46 -0400
Subject: transforming a list into a string
References: <pan.2004.07.31.12.27.23.547000@hotmail.com>
	<ceg471$f5d$07$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <410d4bf1_1@newsfeed.slurp.net>

Peter Otten wrote:

Peter's solution:
>>>> from itertools import izip
>>>> items = ['1','2','7','8','12','13']
>>>> it = iter(items)
>>>> ",".join(["{%s,%s}" % i for i in izip(it, it)])
> '{1,2},{7,8},{12,13}'

My first thought was:

>>> items = ['1','2','7','8','12','13']
>>> ",".join(["{%s,%s}" % i for i in zip(items[::2], items[1::2])])
?'{1,2},{7,8},{12,13}'

Two lines less, but it creates three unnecessary lists.??I?like
Peter's better.

--Steven Rumbalski


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 21:54:27 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:54:27 +1000
Subject: Python milestone releases
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.05.22.55.55.192128@rumblefish.org>
References: <pan.2004.08.05.22.55.55.192128@rumblefish.org>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204080518543a9d01d8@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 00:55:55 +0200, Thomas D'Tak <outpost at rumblefish.org> wrote:
> I do not want to complain here that Python is developing too
> fast; and I do not want to criticize Python's system of version
> numbers. But I want to ask for resp. suggest something like
> *official Python milestone releases*. (Please correct me if
> something like that does already exist and I am just not aware
> of it.)
> 
> Official Python milestone release statements should discourage
> the use of older versions. Moreover, not each and every Python
> release should be a milestone release (clearly).

How exactly would this be different to our existing release process?
In case it's not clear, the webpages for old versions of Python already
state "This version is old, and you should use a newer version". Most 
bugfix releases, I try to put words in to encourage people to upgrade.

I'm not sure how "2.3" isn't a milestone in any way that's meaningful.


From graham__fawcett at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 20 14:49:11 2004
From: graham__fawcett at hotmail.com (Graham Fawcett)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 11:49:11 -0700
Subject: My only complaint about Python
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<cg2ko0$2jl$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net> <2ol650Fbr791U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <e9570f37.0408201049.4f1e63bb@posting.google.com>

Greg Ewing <greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote in message news:<2ol650Fbr791U1 at uni-berlin.de>...
> David Fraser wrote:
> > I agree. I don't mind it being built with Visual Studio, but out of the 
> > box mingw compatibility would be cool...
> 
> As a step towards this, it would be useful if it were
> distributed with the libpythonXX.a that mingw requires
> already built. Then it would just be a matter of giving
> the appropriate flag to setup.py when compiling a module.

+1! Building libpythonXX.a isn't tremendously hard, but it's a pain.
Given the simplicity of mingw's installation (and distutils'
familiarity with it) this would definitely simplify extension building
on win32.

-- Graham


From brett at python.org  Tue Aug 10 14:26:06 2004
From: brett at python.org (Brett C.)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 11:26:06 -0700
Subject: Popular Python projects with lots of pure Python code
References: <mailman.1418.1092088893.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <8ab0589d.0408101026.2036a0ed@posting.google.com>

"Brett C." <bac at OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote in message news:
> Any suggestions?
> 

Just  a quick thanks to everyone who has responded.  I truly
appreciate the help on this!  This is why the Python community is just
so damn cool!

And here are some quick answers to some questions that have come up in
the thread...

"Big" is relative; not looking for simple scripts, but otherwise I am
open.  No real minimum size or anything.

The projects do not have to be devoid of C; just have enough Python
code to warrant using.

"Popular" is also relative.  Since Python is not used here at my
school (Cal Poly SLO), I wanted to also use my thesis as a slight PR
piece within the department.  Being able to list big, popular Python
projects would help to show the legitimacy of the language to
professors.

Please suggest only open source projects.  While I have no issue with
proprietary projects personally I don't want to have to worry about
what I can and cannot discuss in my thesis.

I personally don't need any more web projects listed.  Go for it if
this thread just  keeps going, but with the ones listed so far that is
plenty.  I would love to get a wide swath of projects so as to make
sure my thesis can't be accused of not being representative of non-web
projects.

Something I should have mentioned in the OP is anything that has a
benchmark is an uber-plus!  I am going to end up having to benchmark
some code that I did not gather stats on along with some that I did to
try to show that this was all worth it.  Already plan to use pystone
and parrotbench.

Anyway, here is the current list that I have going.  Ignore the
question marks; just means I have not decided whether I am definitely
using it or not.

----------------

-----------------------------------
Projects for stat collection
-----------------------------------
+ Stdlib (w/o test)
+ Docutils
+ Twisted?
+ Zope?
    * Plone?
+ ReportLab?
+ wxPython?
+ BitTorrent?
+ SpamBayes?
+ Mailman?
+ SiGeFi ?
+ Plucker ?
+ Universal Feed Parser ?
+ Shtoom?
+ Divmod Quotient?
+ MoinMoin?
+ PIL?
+ PySNMP ?
+ scipy ?
+ Boa Constructor ?
+ PythonCard ?
+ OpenGLContext ?
+ PyTable ?

------------------
Benchmarks
------------------
+ pystone
+ parrotbench


From chrisks at NOSPAM.udel.edu  Sat Aug 28 05:09:12 2004
From: chrisks at NOSPAM.udel.edu (Chris S.)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:09:12 GMT
Subject: Circular Import?
Message-ID: <YYXXc.1084$Tq.821@trndny02>

Consider the sample case:

## a.py
import d
import b
b.App()

## b.py
from c import C
B = 'B'
class App(object):pass

## c.py
from d import D
class C(object):pass

## d.py
from b import B
D = 'D'

Executing a.py will return:
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "a.py", line 1, in ?
     import d
   File "d.py", line 1, in ?
     from b import B
   File "b.py", line 1, in ?
     from c import C
   File "c.py", line 1, in ?
     from d import D
ImportError: cannot import name D

I'm assuming this is the result of the circular imports. This isn't a 
bug, right? Is there any way around it?


From brett at python.org  Wed Aug 25 18:41:51 2004
From: brett at python.org (Brett C.)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 15:41:51 -0700
Subject: Proposal for removing self
In-Reply-To: <T_7Xc.61360$Fg5.2281@attbi_s53>
Message-ID: <cgj4jf$15a@odak26.prod.google.com>

No thanks.  This is a common suggestion and Guido has said it ain't
going to happen.  I personally like 'self' a lot because ambiguity from
reading code goes away.  It is easy to not see a '.' but not so for
'self.' .  It also makes teaching OOP to people much easier since you
don't need to explain why some variables and method calls are to the
instance but  other are not.  "Explicit is better than implicit".



From davidf at sjsoft.com  Thu Aug 19 15:54:44 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:54:44 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <cg30i5$2q$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

Paul McGuire wrote:
> There are a number of messages on the python-dev mail list that indicate
> that Guido is looking for some concensus to come from this list as to what
> *one* alternative syntax for decorators we would like him to consider in
> place of the @ syntax that is currently in 2.4a2.
> 
> I think special thanks are due to:
> - Anthony Baxter for his continuing efforts in this regard
> - Steven Bethard for some of the clearest thinking and writing on this topic
> - Michael Sparks for actually implementing one of the options
> 
> We've all done our share of pitching and whining, but we need to settle on
> *one* option for Guido to consider.
> 
> (And let's not get wrapped up complaining about the "process" being followed
> in this whole thing, personally I think it is quite poor.  But let's play
> with the cards we've been dealt, and at least make a collective proposal.)
> 
> The significant alternatives have been listed on the Python wiki at
> http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators .
> 
> Interested parties should also look at the comments in the python-dev
> archive for the past month, at
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/thread.html .
> 
> I would propose a multivote survey: each poster gets 3 votes among the
> lettered choices on the Wiki page above.  You can use all 3 for a single
> option, or split them across 2 or 3 options if you are open to more than
> one.
> 
> I am not going to argue that this is scientific in any respect, but it
> *should* allow the major 1 or 2 choices to bubble to the top.  I have used
> this process at work many times in the past when it was necessary for a
> large group to set priorities among a large list of choices.
> 
> My vote is:  J2  J2  C1
> 
> By the way, once an option has been chosen, it *still* needs an
> implementation for Guido to accept it.  This puts some of the options way
> ahead of the others, in my mind.
> 

J2 L L

I hope once the major 2 choices or so are clear that there is another 
discussion about how to select one

David


From della at toglimi.linux.it  Wed Aug  4 07:51:56 2004
From: della at toglimi.linux.it (Matteo Dell'Amico)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 11:51:56 GMT
Subject: Does python support multi prototype.
In-Reply-To: <2natmnFv86rjU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <2natmnFv86rjU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <w54Qc.29647$OH4.805468@twister1.libero.it>

angel wrote:
> Java and cpp support one function name multi function prototype.
[...]
> Does python support it?

Not natively, but - if you really need them - there are modules that 
make them possible.

Have a look at 
http://gnosis.cx/publish/programming/charming_python_b12.html , and 
maybe at 
http://codespeak.net/pypy/index.cgi?doc/objspace/multimethod.html too.

-- 
Ciao,
Matteo


From gneuner2/ at comcast.net  Fri Aug 27 00:50:58 2004
From: gneuner2/ at comcast.net (George Neuner)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 00:50:58 -0400
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.SOL.4.58.0408251722510.568@zaphod.rite-group.com>
	<upt5eibse.fsf@broadpark.no>
	<Pine.SOL.4.58.0408261056530.568@zaphod.rite-group.com>
	<10isgqrfbmnc26b@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <0cfti0hu2ps1l930fea0050vo76jeb2drh@4ax.com>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:09:32 -0700, Jeff Shannon <jeff at ccvcorp.com>
wrote:


>The Cult did have an earlier incarnation as Southern Death Cult.

And Blue Oyster Cult was originally Soft White Underbelly.

George
-- 
for email reply remove "/" from address


From max at alcyone.com  Sat Aug  7 18:48:19 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 15:48:19 -0700
Subject: elements of decorator syntax suggestions
References: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1298.1091815362.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4edc17eb.0408062125.231f7bef@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1324.1091857951.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <41155C33.37EEB397@alcyone.com>

Tim Peters wrote:

> Overloading a unary prefix operator is out.  As Anthony said, vertical
> bar seemed to be the leading contender on python-dev Friday.  You can
> find tedious arguments there about most of the others that would go
> for you.

Why is | superior to @?  | already has a meaning in Python, and it has
nothing to do with decorators ... at least @ has the virtue of currently
being unused in the language, and having the precedent of being used for
a similar feature in Java.

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ Could it be / That we need loving to survive
    -- Neneh Cherry


From peter at designtheory.org  Wed Aug  4 15:39:29 2004
From: peter at designtheory.org (Peter Dobcsanyi)
Date: 4 Aug 2004 19:39:29 GMT
Subject: ANN: pynauty 0.1 - iso/automorphism for graphs
Message-ID: <cere1h$seh$1@beta.qmul.ac.uk>

Pynauty is a Python extension module to Brendan McKay's Nauty C
procedures. The module provides Python classes to represent graphs and
functions for isomorphism testing and computing automorphism groups of
graphs. The graphs can be undirected or directed. They can contain loops
but no multiple edges. There is always a vertex-coloring associated with
them. Ordinary, that is not vertex-colored, graphs can be represented
with all vertices having the same color.

For download, documentation, installation instructions please visit:

    http://designtheory.org/software/pynauty/

--             ,
    Peter Dobcsanyi



From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 07:05:59 2004
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 04:05:59 -0700
Subject: Is it a bug (or a feature)?
References: <mailman.2348.1093434827.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <6f402501.0408270305.1c27faa4@posting.google.com>

Roman Suzi <rnd at onego.ru> wrote in message news:<mailman.2348.1093434827.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> In Python2.3.4:
> 
> >>> em = email.message_from_file(open('MAILMESSAGE'))
> >>> for i in em:
> ...   print i
> ...
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/email/Message.py",
> line
> 304, in __getitem__
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/email/Message.py",
> line
> 370, in get
> AttributeError: 'int' object has no attribute 'lower'
> 
> However items() does work:
> 
> >>> for i in em.items():
> ...   print i
> ...
> ('Date', '24 Aug 2004 16:06:01 +0400')
> ('From', 'Mail System Internal Data <MAILER-DAEMON at mydomain.ru>')
> ('Subject', "DON'T DELETE THIS MESSAGE -- FOLDER INTERNAL DATA")
> ('Message-ID', '<1095549161 at mydomain.ru>')
> ('X-IMAP', '1095527634 0000000005')
> ('Status', 'RO')
> 
> I can probably guess why this happens ('cause multiple fields with the
> same names are possible), but .items() is broken by this... It needn't
> be!
> 
> 
> Sincerely yours, Roman A.Suzi

It's very similar to a 'feature' in the urllib2 module. (Python 2.3.4)

>>> from urllib2 import urlopen
>>> a = urlopen('http://www.voidspace.org.uk')
>>> print a
>>> i = a.info()
>>> for entry in i: print entry
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<pyshell#11>", line 1, in -toplevel-
    for entry in i: print entry
  File "D:\PYTHON23\lib\rfc822.py", line 390, in __getitem__
    return self.dict[name.lower()]
AttributeError: 'int' object has no attribute 'lower'


Regards,


Fuzzy

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html


From martindemello at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 15 10:47:06 2004
From: martindemello at yahoo.com (Martin DeMello)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 14:47:06 GMT
Subject: Control an external console program
References: <cfnsjm$m81@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <KHKTc.110139$M95.26785@pd7tw1no>

Alexander Stante <alex_stante at yahoo.de> wrote:
 
> So my question is how do I control a command line tool? I want to

Check out http://pexpect.sourceforge.net/

martin


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 30 12:48:13 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 12:48:13 -0400
Subject: PHP Documentation
In-Reply-To: <VeidneVL2-tD2q7cRVn-sw@speakeasy.net>
References: <4133124f$0$281$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>
	<wpednS2Tk8udsa7cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<VeidneVL2-tD2q7cRVn-sw@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <kO-dnSCAsqfSx67cRVn-vA@powergate.ca>

A.M. Kuchling wrote:

> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:30:39 -0400, 
> 	Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> 
>>1) Thinking it's a good idea isn't enough if you want it: somebody
>>    has to implement it.  It's been suggested before, so at this
>>    point the next step is for someone who likes the idea enough
>>    to just do it.
> 
> Someone started doing it manually -- see
> http://www.python.org/moin/PythonLibraryReference .

I guess it might help to publicize it, such as via your posting. ;-)

Since Lloyd did that on May 11 it appears nobody has modified
any of the PythonLibraryReference pages.

More precisely, nobody has appended any comments per the original
instructions, though it's possible someone modified the text in
violation of those instructions.

Wikis can be useful for maintaining documentation, but so far
I've seen it succeed only in very limited instances, and in this
case without top level support (e.g. recognition by the official
doc maintainers that this is now the master copy) I really doubt
it will get far.  Feel free, anyone, to prove me wrong.

-Peter


From michele.simionato at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 00:52:03 2004
From: michele.simionato at gmail.com (Michele Simionato)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 21:52:03 -0700
Subject: The winner of the Python Decorator Poll is...
References: <Ue-dnX0CBNhaEYfcRVn-ig@comcast.com>
	<mailman.1533.1092259988.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4edc17eb.0408112052.1bbd85b3@posting.google.com>

Jack Diederich <jack at performancedrivers.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1533.1092259988.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 04:16:54PM -0500, Doug Holton wrote:
> > George W Bush, as certified by Florida's election commission.
> > 
> > 
> > Which decorator syntax do you like the most? See 
> > http://wiki.wxpython.org/index.cgi/PythonDecoratorsPoll
> > A. @classmethod def foo(): (82) 	14% 	
> > C1. def foo() [classmethod]: (235) 	41% 	
> > E1. def foo(): @classmethod (260) 	45% 	
> > 
> > Total Votes: 577
> > 
> > People are about 6 to 1 against having the decorators come before the 
> > "def" keyword.
> 
> Or people who don't like decorators before the def are six times as
> likely to vote in the dissidents poll *wink*
> 
> -Jack


Indeed. Actually I did not vote since I like the current proposal (maybe
I would like "|"  more than "@") and I dislike all the alternatives,
especially having decorators inside the def.

So the poll is unavoidably biased. Happily, we are not in a democracy!


                       Michele Simionato


From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Sun Aug 15 02:29:13 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 23:29:13 -0700
Subject: Python secure?
References: <cfmqdj$e2n$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <6fc3v1-4il.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

Calvin wrote:
> Could someone tell me just how secure Python is if compiled to an
> exe? Is it more or less secure than using some other language?

Tell us how you define secure if you want a meaningful answer.

If you want a meaningless answer then Python is more secure than a
Ferrari in some circumstances.

Roger 




From Baykara43 at noroozbasket.com  Sat Aug 21 10:58:03 2004
From: Baykara43 at noroozbasket.com (Baykara Mullins)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 09:58:03 -0500
Subject: Interesting
Message-ID: <412762fb@news01.argolink.net>

Interesting newsgroup!


Baykara Mullins
Tel. +1 301 696 1549
Baykara at biogenesys.com
Baykara at anyclue.com


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 21 10:38:01 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:38:01 -0400
Subject: __metaclass__ and __author__ are already decorators
Message-ID: <cg7mo9$r8r$1@sea.gmane.org>

Thinking about decorators, and looking at what we are already doing in 
our Python code, it seems that __metaclass__, __author__, __version__, 
etc. are all examples of decorators.  So we already have a decorator 
syntax.  What is the compelling reason to invent a new one?  And if we 
do, what's to become of the old one?

Here's my take on this.  We have two kinds of decorators:  those that 
are informational only (like __author__ and __version__), and those 
which have side-effects, i.e. those that actually *do* something (like 
__metaclass__).

     class Foo:
         """ This describes the Foo class as normal. """
         __metaclass__ = M
         __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'
         __version__ = '0.1'
         __automethods__ = True


         def baz(self, a, b):
             """ This describes the baz method. """
             __synchronized__ = True
             __returns__ = None
             __author__ = 'Neville Shunt'
             # body of baz goes here...

There, that looks pretty clear and pythonic.  Now how to define the 
decorators.

     def metaclass(decoratedClass, subType):
         """ This describes the 'metaclass' decorator. """
         __decorator__ = True
         __version__ = '1.9'
         # perform the metaclass operation on decoratedClass


     def synchronized(decoratedFunc, trueOrFalse):
         """ This describes the 'synchronized' decorator. """
         __decorator__ = True
         __author__ = 'Martin Curry'
         __version__ = '0.5'
         # perform the synchronized operation on decoratedClass


     def returns(decoratedFunc, *args):
         """Docstring for 'returns' decorator."""
         __decorator__ = True
         # body of decorator goes here


Each decorator function receives the class|function|method being 
decorated as the first parameter of the function (e.g. decoratedClass 
and decoratedFunc above).  The remaining parameters are the values 
assigned to the __xxx__ variable in the definition of the decorated 
function.

So, in the above example, when the 'returns' decorator function is 
called to decorate the 'baz' method, decoratedFunc would recieve the baz 
object and args[0] would be set to None (because of the statement 
"__returns__ = None" in the definition of baz).

For a function to be used as a decorator function, it must be decorated 
as such, by setting its __decorator__ attribute to True.

Does this handle enough of the decorator concerns?

Paul



From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Tue Aug  3 15:57:02 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 15:57:02 -0400
Subject: executing python programs as if they were on OS path (noob)
In-Reply-To: <ceoq2d$8bh$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
References: <ceoogb$7lm$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<EpOdneEAjIQgepLcRVn-sA@powergate.ca>
	<ceoq2d$8bh$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408031556170.11453-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Darren Dale wrote:

> > At least two options (assuming you're on Linux... you
> > didn't specify your OS unfortunately):
> 
> I am currently on windows. I didnt think it would matter, sorry I left 
> that out.

You could probably still use Peter's second solution, but use a batch file 
instead of a shell script.



From ake.ljungbert3 at comhem.se  Fri Aug 27 15:35:27 2004
From: ake.ljungbert3 at comhem.se (ake)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 12:35:27 -0700
Subject: Boa Constructor error
References: <4712d252.0408260804.c69cfee@posting.google.com>
	<cgn9s9$ao5$1@online.de>
Message-ID: <875af5e2.0408271135.7a19a30f@posting.google.com>

Uwe Grauer <news at grauer-online.de> wrote in message news:<cgn9s9$ao5$1 at online.de>...
> Parano wrote:
> > Hi
> > 
> > I have a recurrent error in Boa Constructor, especially when I try to
> > activate code completion: a message box reads "UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii'
> > codec can't decode byte 0xaa in position 52: ordinal not in range(128)"
> > I couldn't find any google resource on that error.
> > 
> > I have Python 2.3.3 with Boa Construtor 0.3.1 on Mandrake Linux 10.
> > wxPython is from wxPythonGTK-py2.3-2.5.2.7-RH9.i386.rpm
> > I also tried wxPythonGTK2-py2.3-2.5.2.7-RH9.i386.rpm but had the same error.
> > Those RPMs are from www.wxpython.org where it says that "install and use on
> > my Mandrake 9.2 system without any troubles."
> > 
> > Any tip on this? Thanks in advance
> 
> Boa isn't ready for wxPython 2.5.x
> Use wxPython 2.4.2.4 instead.
> 
> Uwe

Anyone know what's happening to Boa, there doesn't seem to have been a
new version for over a year.

?ke


From klachemin at home.com  Wed Aug 18 16:06:51 2004
From: klachemin at home.com (Kamilche)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 13:06:51 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <mailman.1859.1092833285.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <889cbba0.0408181206.1812881c@posting.google.com>

40. Old enough that Google wouldn't hire me, hehehehe.


From me at privacy.net  Sat Aug 14 15:22:30 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Richard Hanson)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 12:22:30 -0700
Subject: [Decorators] Seen on pydev -- comments on such.
Message-ID: <q6gsh0l7566ndcpam5en2dbusutoj8ikco@4ax.com>

Seen on news:gmane.comp.python.devel in message-IDs
<16668.57809.362313.36355 at montanaro.dyndns.org> and
<16669.7113.531528.462699 at montanaro.dyndns.org> [much material
not-germane-to-my-comments has been clipped]:

>    def p_statement_expr:
>        staticmethod
>        grammarrule('statement : expression')
>        version("Added in 2.4")
>        deprecatedmethod
>        type_(None)
>    decorate (self, p):
>        """docstring here"""
>        print p[1]
>
> [...]
>
>    * It doesn't put the cart before the horse by introducing the decorators
>      before the def.
>
> [...]
>
>    * It doesn't add an extra level of indentation to the function body.
>
> [...]
>
>    * It looks more like current Python block structure (at least to me)
>      than the @-syntax proposal.

Allow me to expand just a bit on the bullet immediately above
from Skip's list of pros for his proposal:

    * It looks like the standard "backwards-'F'" block shape
      which, for example, try-except, try-finally, and if-else 
      already use. 

(I think this point had been mentioned, prior, and I apologize
that I don't have that post at hand. Also, Skip is probably
alluding to my very point.)

I'm a relative newbie to Python (and only a hobbyist as I've been
retired for almost two decades). I discovered Python only a few
years ago. Like many, I don't have all that much time or energy
or both to devote to active learning of Python, and how the
herein quoted proposal fits my brain may mirror a not
insignificant minority of the Python-using community. 

I hadn't even heard of the decorator concept (as Python renders
it) until discussion about such cropped up on pydev (and here)
over the last while (last year?) or so. I soon grokked what they
were about. And -- I seemed to find no problem whatsoever with
the 2.4a2 prefix @deco form.

Yet, opposition from much-more-learned-than-me folks made me stop
and think. When Guido himself recently opened the door
just-a-crack (on pydev) to another decorator-form *if* the
community could come up with *one* (he may have said two...?)
alternative(s) which were persuasive to him, I sat up.

While I trust the developers, and particularly Guido (I have no
rational argument to support such religious veneration <wink>),
to resolve this in a fine manner, I would like to say the
alternative quoted above fits my newbie-but-not-too-dumb :-)
brain just as smoothly as the currently implemented, prefix @deco
form. It may even be smoother for "newer" newbies.

As I pondered the visual appearance of the above quoted
"backwards-'F'" form of decorated functions, the common
try-except, try-finally, and if-else block-forms came to mind,
and I thought: No problem. Decorated functions (or, perhaps,
decorated some other things) are just another one of the
"backwards-'F'" visual wetware shape-templates (the other common
Python shape-template being the "backwards-and-upside-down-'L'")
for my brain to pattern-recognize.

Therefore, for me, the backwards-F form is not a negative. (And
better backwards-F forms may yet evolve.) I recognize, however,
that other considerations may well still outweigh the "shape"
argument.

---

Having said all that, I'll add that I'm hardly qualified to
comment at all on the Shape Of Things To Come :-), and I'll
happily and gratefully use any decorator form (if I figure out
Python well enough to use them <wink>). I just couldn't resist
throwing in my own thoughts on the topic (as it appears we're
going for the All-Time Longest Topic Ever Award <very big wink>).

(I haven't learned the <x.x wink> syntax, yet... :-) )

brain-oriented-visually-y'rs,
Richard

-- 
R Hanson [The mangled email addie below works.]
sick<P0INT>ole<PERI0D>fart<PIE_DEC0_SYNTAX>newsguy<MARK>com


From fumanchu at amor.org  Wed Aug 25 00:21:20 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 21:21:20 -0700
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E64@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> Class decorators are not in 2.4, because you can do most things you'd
> do with a class decorator by using a metaclass, but in a completely
> different way. In my opinion, class decorators _should_ be in 2.4,
> because they're a much saner way to handle many things that require a
> metaclass today.

For various definitions of "should", I'd say at this point they should
be in 2.5. Nothing's stopping that, AFAICT. Give function decorators a
trial run and then try class decorators. I prefer that schedule even
though I personally have use cases for class decorators and none for
functions...


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From rnd at onego.ru  Mon Aug 23 06:18:25 2004
From: rnd at onego.ru (Roman Suzi)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:18:25 +0400 (MSD)
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed204082302035e4091ee@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408230004350.22879-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>
	<mailman.2175.1093233838.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<q9OdnRDkR-VsMbTcRVn-pw@lmi.net>
	<e69d3ed204082302035e4091ee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408231417340.3077@rnd.onego.ru>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004, Anthony Baxter wrote:

>On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 01:36:31 -0700, David Pokorny
><davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>> using:
>>     staticmethod synchronized memoize
>> def bar(foo):
>>     "To colon or not to colon? Def is the question."
>>     pass

This surprises me. And this doen't surprise:

using:
     staticmethod; synchronized; memoize
def bar(foo):
     "To colon or not to colon? Def is the question."
     pass



Sincerely yours, Roman Suzi
-- 
rnd at onego.ru =\= My AI powered by GNU/Linux RedHat 7.3


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Tue Aug 17 15:06:12 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:06:12 -0400
Subject: is it possible to create an object by its name in the run time
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1814.1092767868.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <PPidncd3ycQ1mbzcRVn-gg@comcast.com><cfrlid$1f8c$1@agate.berkeley.edu><BAY24-DAV135EFk2H3b0001e495@hotmail.com>
	<003d01c48407$45aeaf10$6400a8c0@offer>
	<mailman.1814.1092767868.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408171445160.5776-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Yang Zhang wrote:

> I want to know if it is a build-in func(where can I look up?). If so,
> ignore it otherwise I want to find out which module is it defined in.

All functions and classes have a __module__ attribute which is set to the 
name of the module in which they were defined.

> All I know is the name (which is a string), and all the modules that
> this program have imported.

If you first "import __main__", you can use getattr(__main__,"foo") to get 
the object named "foo" in the global namespace.

> In the same way, I also need to process the class and methods call. I
> wonder if it is possible? I will appreciate your help very much!!

Here is a small snippet demonstrating the above:

 import __main__
 from types import FunctionType, ClassType

 def which_module(name, where = __main__):
     try:
         obj = getattr(where, name)
     except AttributeError:
         obj = getattr(__builtins__, name)
     try:
         return obj.__module__
     except AttributeError:
         if not isinstance(obj, (FunctionType, ClassType)):
             raise TypeError, "%s doesn't reference a function or class" % name
         return None

 print which_module('list')  # --> '__builtin__'
 from math import sin
 print which_module('sin')   # --> 'math'
 a = 6
 print which_module('a')     # --> TypeError

Hope this helps.



From heikowu at ceosg.de  Sat Aug  7 05:53:26 2004
From: heikowu at ceosg.de (Heiko Wundram)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 11:53:26 +0200
Subject: threads: not locking read-only objects
In-Reply-To: <2niuanF1ee0tU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <2ni4b4F16u92U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061528230.25906-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<2niuanF1ee0tU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <200408071153.26443.heikowu@ceosg.de>

Am Samstag, 7. August 2004 04:58 schrieb Jon Perez:
> whoison['username']="timeoflogin"  # to add someone new
>
> del whoison['username']  # to remove someone who's logged out
>
> Do the above count as atomic?

Yup, both of them are atomic. But: If you use different dictionary keys than 
strings, you're in for a little surprise, as __hash__ing an object can cause 
Python to be called, which might be suspended by a thread switch.

The dictionary object will still be in perfect order (it'll never be in an 
inconsistent state), but the key reference won't be in the dictionary yet.

> for x in whoison:
>    print x,whoison[x]
>
> Looking at the read-only code though I just realized
> something.... if a dictionary entry in 'whoison' is deleted
> by the main thread while the 'for x in whoison' is executing
> then what would happen?

Now, this is something different. You can easily try what happens by doing the 
following:

whoison = {"heiko":"at home","heiko2":"at work"}
for x in whoison:
	print x, whoison[x]
	del whoison[x]

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
RuntimeError: dictionary changed size during iteration

That's the same exception you'll get when another thread changes the python 
dict while you're iterating over it.

What you might do:

# The following makes a static copy of the keys of the dictionary.
for x in whoison.keys():
	try:
		val = whoison[x]
	except KeyError:
		continue
	print x, val

Or just acquire a thread lock before processing the dictionary, which might 
actually be the easiest solution. ;)

Heiko.


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 13 23:53:44 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 23:53:44 -0400
Subject: AntiDecorator metaclass
In-Reply-To: <cfk0h0$660$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <cfk0h0$660$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <cfk2cm$8jg$1@sea.gmane.org>

Paul Morrow wrote:

> One of the beautiful things about Python is its clear, minimal syntax. 
> So we must resist adding new syntax to the language, especially where 
> there is a reasonable alternative.
> 
> I believe that Stefen Eischet's suggestion for automatically determining 
> a method's type (class/instance/static) from the name of its first 
> formal parameter is a reasonable alternative to any/all of the decorator 
> syntax proposals.
> 
> Just as the Python system relies on indentation conventions to denote 
> the programmer's intended block structure, it could just as well rely on 
> parameter naming conventions to denote method types.  And as long as 
> these conventions feel natural to the programmer, the language retains 
> its beauty.
> 
> So here is a metaclass that illustrates (what I believe is) the 
> essential idea behind Stefen's suggestion.  See the docstring and 
> footnotes for a description of what it does.
> 
> ##################################################################
> class AntiDecorator(type):
>     """ Metaclass that protests against decorator syntax :-)
> 
>     This metaclass infers a method's method type (instance, class,
>     or static) from the name of its first formal parameter, then
>     makes the necessary Python declaration.
> 
>     * If the 1st parm's name is 'self', then the method is
>     an instance method.
> 
>     * If the 1st parm's name is 'cls' or 'klass', then the
>     method is a class method.
> 
>     * All other methods are static methods.
> 
>     -------------------------------------------------
>     The essence of this technique was suggested by
>     Stefan Eischet on the comp.lang.python newsgroup.
>     -------------------------------------------------
> 
>     This is freeware, no warranties, etc...
> 
>     """
>     __author__ = 'Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com>'
>     __credits__ = 'Stefen Eischet <stefan at eischet.com>'
>     __date__ = '13 Aug 04'
>     __version__ = '0.1'
> 
>     def __new__(cls, clsName, bases, dict):
>         import inspect, types
>         for fName in dict.keys():
>             f = dict[fName]                               # 1.
>             if type(f) is types.FunctionType:             # 2.
>                 parmNames = inspect.getargspec(f)[0]      # 3.
>                 if parmNames:                             # 4.
>                     if parmNames[0] in ('cls', 'klass'):  # 5.
>                         dict[fName] = classmethod(f)
>                     elif parmNames[0] == 'self':          # 6.
>                         pass
>                     else:                                 # 7.
>                         dict[fName] = staticmethod(f)
>                 else:                                  # 8.
>                     dict[fName] = staticmethod(f)
>         return type.__new__(cls, clsName, bases, dict)
>         """Footnotes:
>             1. Bind f to an attribute of the class (cls).
>             2. Only work this magic on functions.
>             3. Get the function's formal parameter names.
>             4. If it has formal parameters, we'll use them
>                 to determine what kind of function it is.
>             5. It's a class method if its first formal
>                 parameter is 'cls' or 'klass'.
>             6. It's an instance method (default) if its first
>                 formal parm is 'self'
>             7. It's a static method if it's not a class method
>                 or instance method.
>             8. No formal parameters, so it's a static method.
>         """
> 
> class Object(object):
>     """ Uses AntiDecorator metaclass to infer method type. """
>     __metaclass__ = AntiDecorator
> 
> if __name__ == '__main__':
>     class Foo(Object):
>         def imethod(self, parm):
>             print "I'm an instance method: %s." % parm
>         def cmethod(cls, parm):
>             n = cls.__name__
>             print "I'm a class method (of %s): %s." % (n, parm)
>         def smethod(parm):
>             print "I'm a static method: %s." % parm
> 
>     Foo().imethod('alpha')
>     Foo.smethod('beta')
>     Foo.cmethod('gamma')
> ##################################################################
> 

Rats!  Please forgive my careless mispellings of Stefan's name.

Pual




From nicoe at no-log.org  Wed Aug 18 21:31:37 2004
From: nicoe at no-log.org (Nicolas =?iso-8859-15?Q?=C9vrard?=)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 03:31:37 +0200
Subject: singleton (newbie)
In-Reply-To: <F-2dnYQF94Kxcb7cRVn-qw@comcast.com>
References: <b68d2f19.0408181413.70f2a91b@posting.google.com>
	<F-2dnYQF94Kxcb7cRVn-qw@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <20040819013137.GD4092@smarties.nutellux.ath.cx>

* Larry Bates  [01:54 19/08/04 CEST]: 
>2) I continue to read on c.l.p. about staticmethods and
>   just don't understand why anyone would use them.  This
>   is how I learned to write this in Python.  It seems that
>   they are some sort of "carryover" from another language.
>   I'd be the first to admit I don't understand the appeal,
>   so maybe they can be useful.  I've just never needed them.
>   If I need a static function, I just write it that way.
>   I don't make it the method of a class object.
>
>if you want x, y to be global across all instances of B:
>
>class B:
>    x = 0
>    y = 1
>
>    def foo(self):
>        print self.x
>
>    def bar(self):
>        print self.y
>        self.y+=1
>
>if __name__ == "__main__":
>    b=B()
>    b.foo()
>    b.bar()
>    b.foo()
>    b.bar()
>    b.bar()

It won't work. Different instances of B will have different values for
y.

-- 
(?>  Nicolas ?vrard
/ )  Li?ge - Belgique
^^   


From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Sat Aug 28 05:56:36 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:56:36 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
In-Reply-To: <87acwgvy51.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<tyf3c28ps1t.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
	<1ry8k0d2az.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87acwgvy51.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
Message-ID: <2pb36dFibuj3U1@uni-berlin.de>

Isaac To wrote:
>>>>>> "Kjetil" == Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no> writes:
> 
>     Kjetil> that's a hack, and IMHO not worthy of a Python program.
>     Kjetil> not even Perl has anything like that, AFAIK.
> 
> Hm... hacks are not for Python?!  We see every kind of hacks
> everywhere in Python just like it is in Perl, like (2,) syntax, etc.

Why would you call (2,) syntax a hack?

If you like, you can call tuple([2]), but I would consider _this_ an
ugly solution or a "hack".

Reinhold

-- 
[Windows ist wie] die Bahn: Man muss sich um nichts kuemmern, zahlt fuer
jede Kleinigkeit einen Aufpreis, der Service ist mies, Fremde koennen
jederzeit einsteigen, es ist unflexibel und zu allen anderen Verkehrs-
mitteln inkompatibel.               -- Florian Diesch in dcoulm


From mahesh at privacy.net  Sat Aug 28 16:09:34 2004
From: mahesh at privacy.net (Mahesh Padmanabhan)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:09:34 -0600
Subject: Generator expressions v/s list comprehensions
References: <mahesh-525B07.12195528082004@individual.net>
	<1gj8y77.6qshr41q531veN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <mahesh-7E265C.14093428082004@individual.net>

In article <1gj8y77.6qshr41q531veN%aleaxit at yahoo.com>,
 aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) wrote:


> Sure, and that limitation is: list comprehensions return lists.  This
> one "limitation" (together with Python's applicative order evaluation,
> and you couldn't change THAT without breaking the whole caboodle of
> existing programs!) implies everything else.

Is returning a list really a limitation considering that lists can be 
transformed quite easily?

What is "Python's applicative order evaluation" and how do generator 
expressions get around it?


> Generator comprehensions are wonderful and there is no way Python list
> comprehensions can provide the same features, since lists need to be
> lists.  Sure, list(e(x) for x in foo) IS just the same thing as [e(x)
> for x in foo].  We'll remove the redundancy in 3.0 -- not earlier
> because it will break backwards compatibility.  The only sensible way I
> can see right now for 3.0 to remove this redundancy is by removing list
> comprehensions and leaving only generator comprehensions, btw.

I am still not clear of the advantages of using generator expressions 
(other than less memory consumption) instead of list comprehension for 
any given class of problems. Can you cite concrete use cases where 
generator expressions would be preferred over list comprehension?

Thanks,
Mahesh


From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Aug 12 12:29:20 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (simo)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 09:29:20 -0700
Subject: Pyhton Interpreter Startup time
References: <mailman.1556.1092304607.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <30260531.0408120829.27a536bc@posting.google.com>

Neil Benn <benn at cenix-bioscience.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1556.1092304607.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> Hello,
> 
>           I'm looking at a small app which would need a very quick 
> startup time for the Python interpreter.  It doesn't do much (copying 
> and caching of files, no GUI) but I need the Python interpreter to start 
> up very quickly (<1 second on a Windows box).  Is there a way to have a 
> 'stripped' down Python interpreter which can start up very quickly on a 
> windows box. 

This has been discussed before, there's definitely something "odd"
about the Windows startup time in comparison to the UNIX "instant"
startup.

> Once thing I was thinking of was to use PyExe to make a 
> quick startup (does it compile down to C code, therefore not using the 
> Python interpreter at runtime?).  Is this a possible solution?

Nope, no compiling to C/machine code, just bytecode, and the
interpreter is a DLL.

>     I observe that the second time I start python it starts up quicker 
> but I'm assuming that this is dependent on the environment and can't be 
> relied upon (or something like that).

Yeah, I think that's something to do with Windows caching.

I keep saying, we need a Python compiler.....


From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Aug 12 22:47:42 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (simo)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 19:47:42 -0700
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
	<cf8trp$lnp$1@nic.grnet.gr>
	<a22gh0dsb94ffqqjqhb3igufi65ap7pg4d@4ax.com>
	<pkulu1-74f.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<30260531.0408102005.5847b9c@posting.google.com>
	<3hpou1-09i.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<30260531.0408120944.5d9ea9f2@posting.google.com>
	<9ppsu1-fjs.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
Message-ID: <30260531.0408121847.5b847d6@posting.google.com>

"Roger Binns" <rogerb at rogerbinns.com> wrote:

> > So how are you generating this interpreter/bytecode archive? It
> > basically sounds like the kind of thing py2exe does, but you've made
> > an object file or something. How did you calculate the dependencies?

> Slides 18 thru 23.  On Windows I use py2exe, Linux I use cxFreeze
> and Mac uses BundleBuilder.

Thanks for the help, I've actually managed to get both cx_Freeze and
MM Installer working!

I think a lot of it has to do with the quality of the build
environment - my RedHat9 box has a horribly hacked-together Python 2.3
distro with bits of RPMs, some compiled stuff and some dodgey
symlinking, but the SUSE box has a proper apt-get'ed Python. I can
build on the SUSE box and run on the RedHat box!

I've written a [simpler than yours] shell script to freeze and then
tar-up the distro, then I might try Solaris!

I've still got a few things to iron out - like bluecurve.so warnings
on RedHat, and linux-gate.so warnings on SUSE, then I've gotta go read
your presentation before learning about RPMs!


From tdelaney at avaya.com  Wed Aug  4 19:01:02 2004
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy))
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:01:02 +1000
Subject: Decorator syntax (was Re: PEP 318 - PyFIT comments)
Message-ID: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01C8C165@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

Christopher T King wrote:

> On 4 Aug 2004, Nick Vargish wrote:
> 
>> I just don't know where else to voice my opinion on this matter, but
>> I absolutely hate the new decorator syntax.
> 
> I wish PEPs had a method through which votes could be cast, for or
> against the PEP (or parts of it), not unlike Bugzilla bugs.  At least

The last vote was an unmitigated disaster. And there appears to be no
more agreement on the correct syntax for decorators. The difference is
that decorator syntax will have significant benefits for a certain class
of project.

> democratic input.  Either way, I really wish he would hold off on
> decorators until there's a consensus on them, rather than forcing
> them in amidst all the disagreements surrounding them.

There are significant projects that will greatly benefit from decorator
syntax - for example, PyObjC.

Personally, I don't overly like the new syntax - I much preferred def
func (args) [decorators] - and I would have preferred not to "waste" @
for them, but I can definitely live with the decision. Some usable
decorator syntax is IMO more important than none.

Besides, @ could possibly be reused for function attributes, meaning
it's less "wasted" - there's also an obvious correlation in that both
decorators and function attributes operate on the function object:

@classmethod
def func (args):
    @attr = 1
    pass

Tim Delaney


From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Wed Aug 25 02:45:52 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 02:45:52 -0400
Subject: python raw strings?
In-Reply-To: <412bc766$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>
References: <412bc766$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>
Message-ID: <2p2qlvFf8nuhU1@uni-berlin.de>

Maurice LING wrote:
> What are python raw strings and how are they different from regular
> strings?

First of all, a minor semantic correction. A string is not raw or 
non-raw; a string can be expressed using raw syntax, but it's just a 
different way of writing the same thing.

Now, in Python, strings can be written with special sequences involving 
backslashes; for instance, "\n" means a line break instead of a 
backslash and an n. If you want a literal backslash followed by an n, 
you need to use two backslashes: "\\n".

If you need to use a lot of backslashes, doubling them up can get very 
annoying. The raw string syntax fixes that: r"\n" is a backslash 
followed by an n, not a line break.

> In PLY, "+" is "r'\+'" but "-" is "r'-'", why is there an extra "\" in 
> "+"? When to use the extra "\" and when not?

I don't have any experience with PLY, but I'm guessing it uses regular 
expressions (http://python.org/doc/current/lib/re-syntax.html). In a 
regular expression, + means something special; if you don't want the 
special meaning, you need to put a backslash in front of it.

The minus sign, on the other hand, has no special meaning in regular 
expressions (well, outside of character sets), so it can be used on its 
own with no backslash.


From mwh at python.net  Thu Aug 12 06:48:03 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 10:48:03 GMT
Subject: The winner of the Python Decorator Poll is...
References: <Ue-dnX0CBNhaEYfcRVn-ig@comcast.com>
	<mailman.1533.1092259988.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4edc17eb.0408112052.1bbd85b3@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1549.1092288204.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m3llgkocnw.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Andrew Durdin <adurdin at gmail.com> writes:

> On 11 Aug 2004 21:52:03 -0700, Michele Simionato
> <michele.simionato at gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Indeed. Actually I did not vote since I like the current proposal (maybe
> > I would like "|"  more than "@") and I dislike all the alternatives,
> > especially having decorators inside the def.
> 
> Since you like the current proposal, why *didn't* you vote for it (it
> was the first one)?

I didn't vote in the poll (or indeed read the first thread about it)
because I think polls are a very bad way of deciding things like this.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  For their next act, they'll no doubt be buying a firewall 
  running under NT, which makes about as much sense as 
  building a prison out of meringue.                     -- -:Tanuki:-
               -- http://home.xnet.com/~raven/Sysadmin/ASR.Quotes.html


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 16 06:38:10 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 06:38:10 -0400
Subject: AntiDecorator metaclass
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed20408160001642a8070@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1640.1092453732.5135.python-list@python.org>	<411dfe05$0$6142$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<cfkvpf$iue$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed20408160001642a8070@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cfq2qh$dor$1@sea.gmane.org>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:15:43 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>No I don't want to say that.  I want to say that decorators should keep
>>their nose out of the classmethod/staticmethod business. 
> 
> 
> So what's the point of this, then? You say it's an "anti-decorator" metaclass.
> It's not. It's simply a way to automagically invoke a couple of standard 
> decorators from a metaclass, based on people following a convention.
> 
> It does little or nothing to address many of the other requirements for
> decorators, is brittle (see my previous post on the subject) and relies on
> something that is merely a convention, and deliberately so.
> 

The class was named a little prematurely, but the point was to show that 
  decorator syntax wasn't needed for static or class method declarations 
as simply following a convention does the job just fine.  Just as it 
does for private and semi-private methods.  Are we planning on keeping 
that convention?  Or will we be phasing that out in favor of a method 
visibility decorator?

> 
>>And it makes the problem space that
>>decorators address smaller (as it becomes everything you want decorators
>>to do minus the classmethod/staticmethod stuff), which might give rise
>>to a better, less objectionable solution.
> 
> 
> I fail to see how your hack, which merely removes two of the most trivial
> examples of decorator use, addresses anything in the general case. 
> 

It doesn't, yet.  Again, this is only targeting method types at the moment.

> As far as a "better, less objectionable solution" - as I've said time and time
> again, this subject has had 2+ years of discussion. Do you honestly 
> expect that 2 or 3 more weeks here or there is going to produce some
> blinding flash of insight? I'd love it to be true, but really, I can't see it.

We're about to do something to the language that will make it less 
readable and more intimidating.  That's bad. So maybe if we limit the 
scope of what decorators need to do, they won't be used that often.  And 
  that would be good.



From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Wed Aug 18 08:57:59 2004
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 05:57:59 -0700
Subject: ClientCookie
References: <6f402501.0408110018.1e4e5ca8@posting.google.com>
	<6f402501.0408120352.680496bc@posting.google.com>
	<87ekmcp13g.fsf@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <6f402501.0408180457.70df82e3@posting.google.com>

jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee) wrote in message news:<87ekmcp13g.fsf at pobox.com>...
> fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord) writes:
> [...]
> > Ok, I've got somewhere.
> > I'm now using the 0.9 version and I found the debugging section in the
> > docs.
> > 
> > I'm using the example from the docs - but I'm pickling a list of the
> > pickles rather than using the load and save methods (as the docs
> > suggest) because I get an NotImplemented error for the save method (so
> > what use is the load method ?).
> 
> I suppose you're trying to use FileCookieJar.  That's an abstract base
> class.  In other words, you're not supposed to use it directly.
> You're supposed to use one of its subclasses, such as LWPCookieJar,
> MSIECookieJar or MozillaCookieJar.  The standard meaning of
> NotImplementedError is not "oops, I haven't got round to that", but
> rather "don't do that; use a subclass instead".

No - I was following hte docs - which just shows CookieJar IIRC :-)
Now that I'm using LWPCookieJar everything is wonderful and works fine...

I'm nopw learning about cookies and authentication....

Many Thanks


Fuzzyman

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html


From dd55 at cornell.edu  Tue Aug 24 19:51:11 2004
From: dd55 at cornell.edu (Darren Dale)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:51:11 -0400
Subject: Book Recommendation
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.24.19.37.35.678632@scrpy.org>
References: <pan.2004.08.24.19.37.35.678632@scrpy.org>
Message-ID: <cggkad$s5g$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>

Anthony Greene wrote:
> I'm new to programming entirely, and I'm simply looking for some insight,
> can you guys recommend some introductory documentation for me to read, and
> what I read, and, do concurrently why reading the primary "book" ou guys
> recommend. Thanks, and any advice is great appreciated.

O'reilly's Learning Python was essential for me. I knew some Matlab 
already, but I think it would still be the right place to start. There 
is a lot of stuff on-line, but this book helped me get up to speed much 
more quickly.


From dave.opstad at agfamonotype.com  Wed Aug 18 10:41:50 2004
From: dave.opstad at agfamonotype.com (Dave Opstad)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 07:41:50 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <dave.opstad-73EBC2.07415018082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>

In article <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505 at newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
 "Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote:

> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....

I'm 50, and have been programming since LBJ was in the White House. 
Python is a real breath of fresh air, and I'm delighted that my employer 
is letting me use it for essentially all my work.

Python fits my brain.

Dave


From chrisb at microgaming.com  Mon Aug 23 15:50:43 2004
From: chrisb at microgaming.com (Chris Becke)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:50:43 +0200
Subject: decompyle available anywhere?
Message-ID: <vZGdnbY0heBA17fcRVn-tg@is.co.za>

There used to be a module, decompyle, that decompiled .pyc files up to
version 2.2 of python. Decompyle for 2.3 is now a paid for web service and
the 2.2 decompyle seems to have been yanked.

Is there some site out there still hosting it? Preferably a win32 version,
but I guess beggars can't be choosers.

Thanks

Chris.




From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Fri Aug 13 21:51:55 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 01:51:55 GMT
Subject: Arranging a dependency tree
References: <6ccff37a.0408111831.6eb25a4e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <%eeTc.9526$MD.3509@fe1.texas.rr.com>

"Kyle Root" <kyleroot at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6ccff37a.0408111831.6eb25a4e at posting.google.com...
> I'm working on a little practice program, but I've become stuck and am
> now utterly confused :?
>
> I've created a jumble of python modules, in each one is a tuple that
> goes something like,
>
> deps = ("file10","file7","file3").
>
> And some have no dependencies at all.  I have one file called "start",
> and the whole thing makes a tree of dependencies as each file has deps
> and their deps might have deps, and so on.  What I'm trying to do is
> "straighten" them or put them in order as if they were to be
> installed.  Basically I'm trying to replicate the way portage does it.
> :)
>
> I've been thinking about this for a few days but I always get lost.
> So far I have a has_deps(filename) function, and not much else. I get
> stuck on the actual changing the files from the random jumble to a
> into a nice orderly list of files.    One problem that I can't
> overcome is when I'm a couple of deps in and I finally get to the
> files that don't require anything, I have no way of getting back to do
> the parent file's other deps. (Does that make any sense?)
>
> Basically I was wondering if anyone had any tips or pointers, or knew
> of any dependency resolving algorithms...
>
> Thanks,
> Kyle

Look into using pydot if you want to actually draw the trees/graphs.

-- Paul




From jepler at unpythonic.net  Tue Aug 31 10:28:26 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:28:26 -0500
Subject: Changing the decimal separator to a comma
In-Reply-To: <46e5cff0.0408310612.6bb1a610@posting.google.com>
References: <46e5cff0.0408310612.6bb1a610@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <20040831142826.GC7876@unpythonic.net>

Nothing changes the way that %-formatting works.

However, after calling locale.setlocale, locale.format should give you a
proper localized number:

>>> import locale
>>> locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL,"de_DE")
'de_DE'
>>> locale.format("%10.2f", 0.123)
'      0,12'
>>> locale.format("%10.2f", 1234.567)
'   1234,57'
>>> locale.format("%10.2f", 1234.567, grouping=True)
'  1.234,57'

Jeff
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From alexis.roda at urv.es  Mon Aug 23 05:48:19 2004
From: alexis.roda at urv.es (Alexis Roda)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:48:19 +0200
Subject: esoteric question about dict keys (Re: age of Python
	programmers)
In-Reply-To: <5a309bd30408200505375a0056@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4125D015.9090204@urv.es>
	<5a309bd30408200505375a0056@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4129BD63.6000909@urv.es>

Steve wrote:
>>If I write my own dictionary-like
>>object, on wich the mutability of the keys is not a technical issue, is
>>considered blasphemous the use of dicts as keys? For example, querying
>>an SQL table can be partially modelled as a dictionary access:
> 

My first intention when thinking on dicts as keys was to avoid problems 
when working with tables with compound primary keys:

table[('value1', 'value2')] or it was table[('value2', 'value1')] ?

table[{'pkey1':'value1', 'pkey2':'value2'}] is less error prone since it 
states what field a value is related to

I've so obsessed with dicts that I've not realized that I can achieve 
the same with tuples:

table[(('pkey1', 'value1'), ('pkey2', 'value2'))]

although, as pointed by Adrew, a method with named parameters looks cleaner.

 > ...but the whole point of having keys is to uniquely identify a
 > record, so table[<whatever>] should always return *one* uniquely keyed
 > object.

in the case I perform an arbitrary query on the table, a tuple (of 
records) can be considered as *one* uniquely keyed object?



Thanks Steve and Andrew
-- 
                                    ////
                                   (@ @)
----------------------------oOO----(_)----OOo--------------------------
<>               Ojo por ojo y el mundo acabara ciego
/\ Alexis Roda - Universitat Rovira i Virgili - Reus, Tarragona (Spain)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



From ayose.cazorla at hispalinux.es  Thu Aug 19 07:40:26 2004
From: ayose.cazorla at hispalinux.es (Ayose)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:40:26 +0100
Subject: multi-instance and classic singleton design patterns
In-Reply-To: <b68d2f19.0408181354.43821bd9@posting.google.com>
References: <b68d2f19.0408181354.43821bd9@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <20040819114025.GA11950@setepo.gotdns.org>

On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 02:54:05PM -0700, Neil Zanella wrote:
> 
> #include <iostream>
> 
> class B {
>   public:
>     B() { }
>     void foo() const {
>       std::cout << x << std::endl;
>     }
>     void bar() {
>       std::cout << y++ << std::endl;
>     }
>   private:
>     static const int x = 0;
>     static int y;
> };
> 
> int B::y = 1;
> 
> int main() {
>   B().foo();
>   B().bar();
>   B().foo();
>   B().bar();
>   B().bar();
> }

Try with

class B:
    x = 0
    
    def foo(self):
        print B.x

    def bar(self):
        B.y += 1
        print B.y
        
        
B.y = 1

if __name__ == '__main__':
    B().foo()
    B().bar()
    B().foo()
    B().bar()
    B().bar()


-- 
Ayose Cazorla Le?n
Debian GNU/Linux - setepo


From grv575 at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 31 00:52:42 2004
From: grv575 at hotmail.com (grv575)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 21:52:42 -0700
Subject: numarray speed question
References: <953AD3D0Didtoken@128.91.2.239>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408040845120.27254-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<953C4DD4idtoken@128.91.2.239>
	<qnkr7qluxuy.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
	<144d0df.0408070828.338f8c19@posting.google.com>
	<qnkn015ujoh.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
	<9540516Didtoken@128.91.2.239>
	<qnkisbrv8r9.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
	<144d0df.0408251616.5758d6e7@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.2396.1093481861.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<qnkd61eshw1.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
Message-ID: <144d0df.0408302052.6ec457c9@posting.google.com>

Great that cleared up that discrepancy between the source and the code
I'm translating to.  I think I've tried all the libraries though,
numarray.fft, numarray.fftpack, scipi's fft module.  I've even got the
install script for scipi to tell me it found fftw modules so I'm
pretty sure it was using them, but I'm getting the same speeds for
each module...and the code _should_ be about 10x faster (compared to
C/fortran/etc.)  They really should better document exactly how to get
fast ffts up and running under these number packages.

cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca (David M. Cooke) wrote in message news:<qnkd61eshw1.fsf at arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>...
> At some point, Tim Hochberg <tim.hochberg at ieee.org> wrote:
> > grv575 wrote:
> >
> > Is it possible to do single precision ffts in numarray or
> >> no?
> >
> > I believe so, but I'm not sure off the top of my head. I recommend
> > that you ask on numpy-discussion
> > <numpy-discussion at lists.sourceforge.net> or peek at the
> > implementation. It's possible that all FFTs are done double precision,
> > but I don't think so.
> 
> Looks like the numarray.fft package uses doubles.
> 
> If you really need floats, SciPy wraps the single- and
> double-precision versions of FFTW. (Although SciPy uses Numeric, not
> numarray).
> 
> Or, you can make your own version of numarray.fft using floats
> (actually looks to relatively simple to do).


From fumanchu at amor.org  Thu Aug 26 11:11:53 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:11:53 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E7F@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Paul McGuire wrote:
> "12 @ $1.50" is shorthand for "12 at $1.50 per item" was what 
> I meant to say
> before I was interrupted!
> 
> "per" as a Latin word would help its adoption beyond English-speaking
> regions.  It's meaning as "by" is consistent with the 
> decorator notion that
> foo() is modified _by_ the decorator methods before it is 
> fully defined.
> 
> And Alex cites "per"s three-letter-ness, as a nice parallel to the
> corresponding "def".

I think I can mention that "per" has multiple advocates now (without
alterting the document so much that we would need to re-sign). But
that's about all I can do at this point. :/


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From brianc at temple.edu  Tue Aug 31 13:50:24 2004
From: brianc at temple.edu (brianc at temple.edu)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:50:24 -0400
Subject: Converting integers to english representation
Message-ID: <ce54ab83.7898bcf1.d381d00@po-d.temple.edu>

Hello All,

I'm developing a system to parse and enumerate addresses. The
current obstacle is numbered streets. Does anybody know of a
module already written to convert integers to their english
equivalents?

Example:
1ST -> FIRST
SECOND -> 2ND

or even something like this:
1 -> ONE
TWO -> 2

There's something similar in the dive into python book with
roman numerals. http://diveintopython.org/unit_testing/index.html

Anything towards that direction would greatly help and save me
a lot of time then from starting from scratch.

Thank you in advance.
-Brian


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 09:52:48 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 15:52:48 +0200
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
	<dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
	<aN5Xc.205341$M95.157379@pd7tw1no>
	<1gj4fb5.607xsc51izh8N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xllg25lkt.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj4u3a.12ttba9fynd6uN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncis152.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<1gj5bp4.qhup8tldmvebN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncitrk7.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<7xk6vlgemp.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<slrnciu0fg.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<1gj6eil.hgzr1l125qaomN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrnciu703.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
Message-ID: <1gj6n23.vnzqrh1unc1qfN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Antoon Pardon <apardon at forel.vub.ac.be> wrote:
   ...
> > You think one way, GvR thinks another, and in Python GvR wins.  Go
> > design your own language where what you think matters.
> 
> Why the fuss over the chosen decorator syntax if  GvR
> wins anyhow.  Why don't you go tell all those people
> arguing decorator syntax that they should design their own
> language where what they think matters.

Because in this case, specifically, the decision is explicitly
considered "not definitive yet".  Alpha versions get released
_specifically_ to get community feedback, so a controversial innovation
gets a chance to be changed if the community can so persuade Guido.

I do not know if you're really unable to perceive this obvious
difference, or are just trying to falsely convince others that you're as
thick as that; in this like in many other cases in this thread, if
you're pretending, then you're doing a good job of it, because you're
quite close to convincing me that your perception _is_ truly as impeded
as it would appear to be.

> 
> If you think I shouldn't voice an opinion here because GvR
> wins anyhow and my opinion won't matter fine. Just say so
> from the beginning. Don't start with pretending that you
> have good arguments that support the status quo because
> all that matters is that GvR prefers it this way.
> All good arguments in support are just a coincidence in
> that case.

I do think, and I have indeed "stated so from the beginning" (many years
ago), that it's generally a waste of time and energy for people to come
charging here criticizing Python's general design and demanding changes
that won't happen anyway.  There are forums essentialy devoted to
debates and flamewars independenlty of their uselessness, and this
newsgroup is not one of them.

People with normal levels of perceptiveness can see the difference
between such useless rants, on one side, and, on the other, several
potentially useful kinds of discourse, that I, speaking personally, do
indeed welcome.  Trying to understand the design rationale for some
aspect of the language is just fine, for example -- and that's because
trying to understand any complicated artefact X is often well served by
efforts to build a mental model of how X came to be as it is, quite
apart from any interest in _changing_ X.  You may not like the arguments
I present, but I'm not just "pretending" that they're good, as you
accuse me of doing: many people like them, as you can confirm for
yourself by studying the google groups archives of my posts and of the
responses to them over the years, checking out the reviews of my books,
and so on.  If you just don't like reading my prose, hey, fine, many
others don't particularly care for it either (including Guido,
mostly;-); I'll be content with being helpful to, and appreciated by,
that substantial contingent of people who do like my writing.

And so, inevitably, each and every time I return to c.l.py, I find some
people who might be engaging in either kind of post -- the useful
"trying to understand" kind, or the useless "criticizing what you cannot
change" one -- and others who are clearly just flaming.  And inevitably
I end up repeating once again all the (IMHO) good arguments which (IMHO)
show most criticisms to be badly conceived and most design decisions in
Python to be consistent, useful, helpful and well-founded.  Why?
Because this is a _public_ forum, with many more readers than writers
for most any thread.  If these were private exchanges, I'd happily set
my mail server to bounce any mail from people I know won't say anything
useful or insightful, and good riddance.  But since it's a public forum,
there are likely to be readers out there who ARE honestly striving to
understand, and if they see unanswered criticisms they may not have
enough Python knowledge to see by themselves the obvious answers to
those criticisms -- so, far too often, I provide those answers, as a
service to those readers out there.  I would much rather spend this time
and energy doing something that's more fun and more useful, but it's
psychologically difficult for me to see some situation that can
obviously use some help on my part, and do nothing at all about it.

Maybe one day I'll be psychologically able to use killfiles more
consistently, whenever I notice some poster that I can reliably classify
as a useless flamer, and let readers of that poster's tripe watch out
for themselves.  But still I find it less painful to just drop out of
c.l.py altogether when I once again realize I just can't afford the time
to show why every flawed analysis in the world IS flawed, why every
false assertion in the world IS false, and so on -- and further realize
that there will never be any shortage of people eager to post flawed
analysis, false assertions, and so on, to any public forum.


> >> I don't see that much difference in the frustration of having
> >> to write: 
> >> 
> >>   t = f(x)
> >>   v[t] = v[t] + 1
> >
> > You're repeating (necessarily) the indexing operation, which may be
> > unboundedly costly for a user-coded type.
> 
> That repetion is just pythons inabilty to optimise.

There being, in general, no necessary correlation whatsoever between the
computations performed by __getitem__ and those performed by
__setitem__, the repetition of the indexing operation is (in general)
indeed inevitable here.  Python does choose not to hoist constant
subexpressions even in other cases, but here, unless one changed
semantics very deeply and backwards-incompatibly, there's nothing to
hoist.  ((note carefully that I'm not claiming v[t] += 1 is inherently
different...))

> 
> >> and the frustration of having to write
> >> 
> >>   lst = f(x)
> >>   lst.sort()
> >>   lst.reverse()
> >
> > Here, no operation is needlessly getting repeated.
> 
> Yes there is, the operation to find lst from the local dictionary.
> Although it wont be unboundedly costly.

If you're thinking of a virtual machine based on a stack (which happens
to be the case in the current Python), you can indeed imagine two
repeated elementary operations, in current bytecode LOAD_FAST for name
'lst' and POP_TOP to ignore the result of each call -- they're extremely
fast but do indeed get repeated.  But that's an implementation detail
based on using a stack-based virtual machine, and therefore irrelevant
in terms of judging the _language_ (as opposed to its implementations).
Using a register-based virtual machine, name 'lst' could obviously be
left in a register after the first look-up -- no repetition at all is
_inherently_ made necessary by this aspect of language design.


> > Still, I'm much happier thinking of you busy designing your own
> > wonderful language, than wasting your time and yours here, busy
> > criticizing what you cannot change.
> 
> If you don't want to waste time, just state from the beginning
> that this is how GvR wanted it and people won't be able to
> change it.
> 
> You shouldn't start by arguing why the language as it is is as
> it should because that will just prolong the discussion as
> people will give counter arguments for what they think would
> be better. If you know that, should people not be persuaded
> by your arguments, you will resort to GvR autority and declare
> the arguments a waste of time, you are better of puttings
> GvR autority that can't be questioned on the table as soon
> as possible.

On the other hand, _reasonable_ readers (and there are some, as shown by
the various feedback on my work that I have referred to in previous
parts of this post) can benefit by a presentation of the _excellent_
reasons underlying Python's design, and such readers would be badly
served if the flawed arguments and false assertions presented to justify
some criticisms of Python were left unanswered.


Alex


From nicolas.wang at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 21:57:15 2004
From: nicolas.wang at gmail.com (Yu Wang)
Date: 5 Aug 2004 18:57:15 -0700
Subject: Decorator syntax (was Re: PEP 318 - PyFIT comments)
References: <mailman.1162.1091660561.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnch2rs1.6ei.ressler@cheetah.jpl.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <fdd34a2b.0408051757.415589f9@posting.google.com>

I'm not an active guy in the groups.But I do agree with Mike.
If there is a vote. I'll vote for this reply.
Please consider a more elegant way.

Michael Ressler <ressler at cheetah.jpl.nasa.gov> wrote in message news:<slrnch2rs1.6ei.ressler at cheetah.jpl.nasa.gov>...
> On 2004-08-04, Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy) <tdelaney at avaya.com> wrote:
> > Christopher T King wrote:
> >
> >> On 4 Aug 2004, Nick Vargish wrote:
> >> 
> >>> I just don't know where else to voice my opinion on this matter, but
> >>> I absolutely hate the new decorator syntax.
> >
> > @classmethod
> > def func (args):
> >     @attr = 1
> >     pass
> 
> I'm just a dumb user of Python - I don't even program for a living, so
> there is no reason any of you should listen to me, but this @-syntax
> thing makes Python look like Perl. The reason I learned Python was that
> Perl looks like line noise to me, and I wanted a scripting language I
> could read. Please don't wreck a beautiful, readable language with this
> shortcut. Choose a word for it, not a symbol, please.
> 
> Mike


From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Fri Aug 27 21:58:00 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:58:00 -0700
Subject: allowing braces around suites
In-Reply-To: <1rpt5ccbso.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<tyf3c28ps1t.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
	<1ry8k0d2az.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<10iv0kid2ig9ka6@corp.supernews.com>
	<1rpt5ccbso.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <10ivpk9inpnh65@corp.supernews.com>

Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote:

>[Jeff Shannon]:
>  
>
>>  The irony of [this] being said in defense of adding braces (even
>>  optional ones) to Python is truly awe-inspiring.
>>    
>>
>
>please provide an argument rather than engage in ad hominem attacks.
>  
>

One of the core concepts of Python philosophy is that of significant 
indentation being more reliable than braces to indicate program 
structure.  The whole point of using indentation is that it's far more 
natural for the human eye and mind to grasp; when one sees code in which 
braces and indentation are used, but inconsistently, the natural 
inclination is to follow the indentation rather than the braces.  The 
problem is that programmers have been trained for decades to use 
delimiters, because that's the way languages were designed, because 
earlier parsers had difficulty without them.  But programmers have 
*also* used indentation the whole time, because they needed it so that 
*they* could understand their own code.  The indentation is for the 
programmers, the braces are for the compiler.  Well, parser technology 
has advanced to the point where hints like braces aren't needed, but 
many programmers are so accustomed to having them that they keep looking 
for excuses to keep them around.

There are endless examples, as I said, of how inconsistently indented C 
code is far more confusing than braceless Python code.  Now, admittedly, 
your proposal here won't allow braces and indentation to be inconsistent 
-- that'll throw a syntax error.  But that means that you're encoding 
the same information in two ways, which is a waste of effort and a waste 
of mindspace.  This isn't just providing more than one way to do it; 
this is providing two ways to do it, and insisting that even if you use 
the second you need to *also* use the first.  That's like Amazon 
providing an online order form, but still insisting that you phone in 
your order before they'll deliver it.

Now, what do you gain by adding braces?  The ability of tools to better 
reindent code, supposedly.  But I have to say, using block-indent and 
block-dedent commands, I've never had a difficult time with maintaining 
proper relative indentation of cut-and-pasted code blocks.  I don't see 
the problem you're trying to solve, I'm not aware of it being a 
significant problem throughout Python's 10+ year history, and I honestly 
doubt that your "solution" would provide much significant benefit.

So... you're proposing a significant change to the core language syntax, 
which violates a number of Python core design principles, in order to 
simplify the process for a tool to perform an infrequent task, which 
it's quite capable of doing in a slightly different way already.  And 
yet, when someone else comments that the same lack-of-results can be 
accomplished with a currently legal (though pointless) bit of 
convention, you're worried that *they* are proposing something 
non-Pythonic?

Note, also, that this is not an ad hominem attack.  I say nothing about 
you personally -- my comments are based entirely on the proposal and 
argument that you put forward.  I'm not calling you names or questioning 
your morals; I'm merely pointing out that your complaint about Jacek's 
response can be applied far more aptly to your own original post.

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International

(PS: I'm going to be away from the newsgroup for the weekend, so lack of 
an immediate response on my part shouldn't be taken to construe anything 
significant...)



From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 12 00:28:18 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 00:28:18 -0400
Subject: The winner of the Python Decorator Poll is...
In-Reply-To: <Ue-dnX0CBNhaEYfcRVn-ig@comcast.com>
References: <Ue-dnX0CBNhaEYfcRVn-ig@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <xq2dnWPxueN-bIfcRVn-jw@powergate.ca>

Doug Holton wrote:

> Which decorator syntax do you like the most? See 
> http://wiki.wxpython.org/index.cgi/PythonDecoratorsPoll
> A. @classmethod def foo(): (82)     14%    
> C1. def foo() [classmethod]: (235)     41%    
> E1. def foo(): @classmethod (260)     45%    
> 
> Total Votes: 577
> 
> People are about 6 to 1 against having the decorators come before the 
> "def" keyword.

While I voted in that poll, and in fact voted for one of the
two "after" methods (I forget which, doesn't matter), I want
to point out the danger of extrapolating from the poll results
to unsubstantiated claims such as the one you make.

The poll results show that by a ratio of 6 to 1, people
who voted prefer either of the second two options to the
first one.  Nothing more, nothing less.  The poll didn't
mention that it was a choice between before and after,
and therefore you shouldn't make assumptions about what
was in the minds of those voting.

For example, had the "decorate:" option that recently evolved
from discussion in this forum been present, I would have
preferred it over any of the methods show above.  That's
because I'm not religious about the before or after thing
so much as I am over the punctuation and Pythonic-style
issues.  The "decorate:" option is the closest fit with
Python style, IMHO, even more so than list-after-def, and
even the fact that it comes before the def doesn't bother
me since the indented block structure feels very similar
to other such constructs in Python.

And I'm sure I'm not alone, but nobody's done a poll on
it yet. ;-)

-Peter


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Wed Aug 25 08:43:00 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:43:00 GMT
Subject: Is it a bug (or a feature)?
References: <mailman.2348.1093434827.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <oP%Wc.22385$v86.16673@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"Roman Suzi" <rnd at onego.ru> wrote in message
news:mailman.2348.1093434827.5135.python-list at python.org...
>
> In Python2.3.4:
>
> >>> em = email.message_from_file(open('MAILMESSAGE'))
> >>> for i in em:
> ...   print i
> ...
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/email/Message.py",
> line
> 304, in __getitem__
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/email/Message.py",
> line
> 370, in get
> AttributeError: 'int' object has no attribute 'lower'
>
> However items() does work:
>
> >>> for i in em.items():
> ...   print i
> ...
> ('Date', '24 Aug 2004 16:06:01 +0400')
> ('From', 'Mail System Internal Data <MAILER-DAEMON at mydomain.ru>')
> ('Subject', "DON'T DELETE THIS MESSAGE -- FOLDER INTERNAL DATA")
> ('Message-ID', '<1095549161 at mydomain.ru>')
> ('X-IMAP', '1095527634 0000000005')
> ('Status', 'RO')
>
> I can probably guess why this happens ('cause multiple fields with the
> same names are possible), but .items() is broken by this... It needn't
> be!
>
>
> Sincerely yours, Roman A.Suzi
> -- 
>  - Petrozavodsk - Karelia - Russia - mailto:rnd at onego.ru -
>

Looks like a bug to me.  Message.__getitem__() makes a call to
Message.get(), assuming that the argument passed in is a key name (such as
'Date', 'From', etc. from your example).  __getitem__ should first check to
see if the input argument (named 'name', further indication that this method
was written to expect only strings) is an integer or slice, and if so, just
return self._headers[name].

-- Paul




From davidf at sjsoft.com  Tue Aug 24 05:05:18 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:05:18 +0200
Subject: apache configuration tool
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.17.08.33.08.85632@gmx.net>
References: <pan.2004.08.17.08.33.08.85632@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <cgf0cf$sk8$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

Stephan Diehl wrote:
> Is there something similar to the PERL
> Apache::Admin::Config module
> out there that is written in Python?
> 
> Stephan

No idea what that module does.
But I've got a module that might get include with mod_python that lets 
you make simple changes to an apache conf file

David


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Mon Aug 16 10:55:40 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:55:40 -0400
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
In-Reply-To: <nbudnY5S8Jl2Kb3cRVn-oQ@powergate.ca>
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<RGwTc.37687$js3.13758840@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<LIqdndnJz9N_pr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<slrnci0vhb.k3.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<nbudnY5S8Jl2Kb3cRVn-oQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408161050010.8576-100000@ccc3.wpi.edu>

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, Peter Hansen wrote:

> What I doubt is that many of those people are out there rejecting Python
> just because it doesn't let them write god-awful unreadable code with
> artistic or random indentation.

Imagining ee cummings coding Python:

import
          sys

def main  ( )
:
    myfile
=   open

( s y s . a r g v [ 1 ] )

myfile
.
write('
   hello

world           ')myfile.



c
l
o
s
e


()main()



From Jeffrey at Fro.man  Sun Aug 22 15:46:11 2004
From: Jeffrey at Fro.man (Jeffrey Froman)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:46:11 -0700
Subject: Getting benifits of database transactions in an OO way?
References: <2oq8pmFdd2nfU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <IdKdnQEF1KSZZbXcRVn-vw@cablespeedwa.com>

Leif K-Brooks wrote:

> I'm coding an application which makes extensive use of a PostgreSQL
> database. To make code clearer, I'm wrapping various row types in
> objects.

You might want to take a look at http://sqlobject.org (transaction examples
provided in the documentation as well.)

Jeffrey


From del at mjclift.freeserve.co.uk  Fri Aug 13 00:33:24 2004
From: del at mjclift.freeserve.co.uk (Calvin79)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 00:33:24 -0400
Subject: while and if
Message-ID: <e0197c1847cb38af22dceeb8aaa6e679@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>

Hi,

I'm very new to python, but believe in learning from examples. So could
someone please help me with this?

I choose a number of 'things' I want 

Number = input("Number of things (1-8)? ")
things = ['1', '2', '3', '4', '5', '6', '7',\
'8']

>From there I want to take at random a letter and do this n times depending
on the number I gave.

choice = choice('abcd')

The final answer if say the number had been 5 to look something like;

choice 1 = d
choice 2 = c
choice 3 = a
choice 4 = d
choice 5 = b
etc...

I can sort of see how to use the while loop for int but not to keep
choosing from the list and lable it choice 1 etc...

Thanks for any help,

Calvin 



From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 10:40:30 2004
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 07:40:30 -0700
Subject: ClientCookie
References: <6f402501.0408110018.1e4e5ca8@posting.google.com>
	<6f402501.0408120352.680496bc@posting.google.com>
	<87ekmcp13g.fsf@pobox.com>
	<6f402501.0408180457.70df82e3@posting.google.com>
	<87llgbt2mh.fsf@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <6f402501.0408230640.6d2527e4@posting.google.com>

jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee) wrote in message news:<87llgbt2mh.fsf at pobox.com>...
> fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord) writes:
> > jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee) wrote in message news:<87ekmcp13g.fsf at pobox.com>...
>  [...]
> > No - I was following hte docs - which just shows CookieJar IIRC :-)
> > Now that I'm using LWPCookieJar everything is wonderful and works fine...
> [...]
> 
> Whoops, sorry.  Where is this mistake in the docs?  I don't see it.
> 
> 
> John

Right...
I'm using the document that starts :
ClientCookie
Note: this page describes the 0.9.x development version. See here for
the stable 0.4.x version.


There is no mention of LWPCookieJar *anywhere* in the docs.
In the debugging  section it talks about using the load and save
method and gives a specific example involving the straight CookieJar
class....... :

When you .save() to or .load()/.revert() from a file, single-session
cookies will expire unless you explicitly request otherwise with the
ignore_discard argument. This may be your problem if you find cookies
are going away after saving and loading.

import ClientCookie
cookies = ClientCookie.CookieJar()
opener = ClientCookie.build_opener(ClientCookie.HTTPCookieProcessor(cookies))
ClientCookie.install_opener(opener)
r = ClientCookie.urlopen("http://foobar.com/")
cookies.save("/some/file", ignore_discard=True, ignore_expires=True)



These are the docs that came with my download...............
LWPCookieJar - works fine.... but I'd never heard of it until you
mentioned it.

Regards,


Fuzzy

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html


From pink at odahoda.de  Tue Aug 24 18:07:22 2004
From: pink at odahoda.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:07:22 +0200
Subject: Macro expansion: intercept statement interpretation
In-Reply-To: <cggdpo$vo6$00$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <opsc9o36ze1js0xs@news.telkomsa.net>
	<cggdpo$vo6$00$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <cgge70$96m$03$1@news.t-online.com>

Benjamin Niemann wrote:

> You could try to override __import__ to first parse the source for macro 
> definitions and do the expansions. Usage would then be:
> 
> import DoMagicWithImportModule
> import ModuleWithMacros
> 
> (Your code wouldn't work, because python throws a SyntaxError long 
> before it even tries to execute 'import MyCustomMacroLib')
> The code at http://docs.python.org/lib/examples-imp.html could be 
> extended to first read the contents of the module (after find_module) 
> and passes the expanded source (e.g. as a StringIO) to load_module.
> 
> This has of course the problem (that many implementations of macro 
> expansion share) that line numbers in exception dumps have not much 
> relation to lines of the unexpanded code...
If this actually works, a nice application could be rapid prototyping of 
syntax extensions to python ('import this module and you can test and 
see why my decorator syntax is better than yours' ;)


From Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU  Sat Aug 21 21:38:01 2004
From: Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU (Michael J. Fromberger)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:38:01 -0400
Subject: Overriding logical operators?
References: <mailman.2095.1093066795.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Michael.J.Fromberger-6F99B3.21380121082004@localhost>

In article <mailman.2095.1093066795.5135.python-list at python.org>,
 Andrew Durdin <adurdin at gmail.com> wrote:

> In Python, you can override the behaviour of most operators for a
> class, by defining __add__, __gt__, and the other special object
> methods.
> 
> I noticed that, although there are special methods for most operators,
> they are conspicuously absent for the logical "or" and "and". I'm
> guessing that the reason for this is that these operators
> short-circuit if their first operand answers the whole question?
> 
> Would it be possible to allow overriding the logical operators, with
> the caveat that overriding it would prevent short-circuiting?

The implementation of "and" and "or" are special, as others have pointed 
out.  However, you do have some control over how they behave for objects 
of user-defined classes.  By overriding __nonzero_, you can define 
whatever truth value you like for instances of a user-defined class.  
See:

  http://docs.python.org/lib/truth.html

This would not, in itself, "override" the behaviour of "and" and "or", 
in the sense that you were describing, but it would let you control the 
outcome for objects of your particular class. 

-M

-- 
Michael J. Fromberger             | Lecturer, Dept. of Computer Science
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~sting/  | Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA


From gandalf at geochemsource.com  Wed Aug 18 08:04:39 2004
From: gandalf at geochemsource.com (Gandalf)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:04:39 +0200
Subject: Platform independent way to play an mp3 file
In-Reply-To: <1w9xnslz5154j.1es2d7zxju1hl$.dlg@40tude.net>
References: <mailman.1849.1092821900.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1w9xnslz5154j.1es2d7zxju1hl$.dlg@40tude.net>
Message-ID: <412345D7.80804@geochemsource.com>


>>Does anyone know a platform independent way to play an mp3 file from Python?
>>I believe the standard library cannot do this.
>>    
>>
>
>http://pymedia.sf.net
>
>maybe this library can help you
>  
>
Oh yes, I know about this. But it seems it is working on Linux and 
Windows only. I have Solaris, FreeBSD and AS/400 clients too.
:-(

-------------- next part --------------
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From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Mon Aug  2 20:36:33 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 20:36:33 -0400
Subject: Microbenchmark: Summing over array of doubles
In-Reply-To: <4d642979.0408021551.586e1d1f@posting.google.com>
References: <4d642979.0407312049.7a8aecab@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011847510.21160-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
	<4d642979.0408021551.586e1d1f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408022024030.4607-100000@ccc1.wpi.edu>

On 2 Aug 2004, Yaroslav Bulatov wrote:

> You are right, how silly of me! Fixing the script now results in 130
> millis mean, 8.42 millis standard deviation, which is slower than
> numarray (104, 2.6 respectively). I wonder why numarray gives faster
> results on such a simple task?

The reason is that your C loop uses array indexing, whereas numarray's
increments the array pointer on each iteration through the loop an forgoes
any indexing.  Even though this translates into about same number of
opcodes on x86, the latter is slightly faster because it skips the
(implied) bitshift operation.  Also don't forget to compile your C version
with -O3, as this can make a big difference in that little loop (maybe not
in your case though).

In principle, for simple access patterns like summation, etc., numarray 
will always be faster than your "typical" C implementation, since its core 
vector functions were designed to be very efficient.  Of course, an 
efficient C implementation will be as fast or faster, but you'd have to 
use those efficiency tricks in every vector operation you perform, which 
could be quite tedious without writing your own library.  (The above 
generaliztion of course only applies to very large arrays.)

Either way, your results are quite promising -- they show that Python with 
numarray is as good or better than C when it comes to vector processing 
applications, all while being easier to use.  That's good publicity!



From jdc at uwo.ca  Fri Aug 20 12:25:30 2004
From: jdc at uwo.ca (Dan Christensen)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:25:30 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<10ia1a9jm9tkuca@corp.supernews.com>
	<dpWdnT7p6KbzlbjcRVn-jw@powergate.ca>
	<84GdneSa3r-TR7jcRVn-tw@powergate.ca>
	<f8097096.0408200750.414e2de1@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <87wtztixol.fsf@uwo.ca>

J2 J2 J2


From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  6 16:19:18 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 16:19:18 -0400
Subject: @decorators
In-Reply-To: <roy-B53A92.08194306082004@reader1.panix.com>
References: <d22692a3.0408052234.7230fd74@posting.google.com>
	<roy-B53A92.08194306082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <4113e7c7@nntp.zianet.com>

Roy Smith wrote:
> I really dislike the proposed syntax, for two main reasons.  First, I 
> don't like the idea of inventing new uses for punctuation (down that 
> road lies perl).

Eh. After print >>, it doesn't seem so bad :). And I *like* the fact 
that it doesn't look like a normal statement, because it *isn't* a 
normal statement. This could also be accomplished with a keyword, but 
I've yet to hear one that makes sense in all usages.

> Second, I don't like the idea that you're creating a 
> contextual block which violates (or at least ignores) the normal 
> indenting rules.

Bingo! That is my biggest problem with this syntax. If it were just 
moved inside the function definition, like the docstring, I'd be *so* 
much happier...

> I'm also wondering about doc strings.  Doc strings are really metadata, 
> and if the idea of decorators is to build a uniform way to handle 
> metadata, it would be nice to see it somehow include docstrings.

I'm not sure docstrings need to change. The do what they do pretty well 
(though I'd like to be able to parse them a bit more easily). @dec isn't 
just about metadata, though: its about *any* sort of modification to the 
default function object def creates. Metadata is one of the more common 
uses, to be sure, but by no means the only one. In short, I see no need 
to bring the docstring into this.

   -- Mark


From insert at spam.here  Thu Aug 26 13:30:07 2004
From: insert at spam.here (Doug Holton)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:30:07 -0500
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2455.1093539321.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<mailman.2455.1093539321.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <gqudnRoo8q-Cg7PcRVn-tA@comcast.com>

Tim Hochberg wrote:
> I also have a weak preference for 'per' over 'using', FWIW. The 
> shortness of 'per' is one virtue. Another is that, because it's slightly 
> obscure, it may be easier to indoctrinate users that 'per...def' is the 
> correct order, not 'def...per'. For me at least it's 'obvious' that if 
> 'using...def' works then so should 'def...using', which of course it 
> can't. The order is amenable to memorization, but I still anticipate 
> more thinkos of this type from using than from per. On the downside, per 
> may be extremely obscure to those that are neither native speakers of 
> English or one of the romance languages.

Even in common English usage, "per" usually comes in the middle of a
phrase, not the beginning, like "miles per hour" or "Changes were made
to the manuscript per the author's instructions"  (people would more 
commonly use the phrase "according to" rather than "per" there).

None of those uses bare any resemblance to how decorators affect
functions.  "per:" by itself on a line is pretty much meaningless.
Looks more like you misspelled pre.

If people are liking Latin keywords for decorators now, why not "sic"?


From Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com  Thu Aug  5 08:59:30 2004
From: Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com (Ames Andreas (MPA/DF))
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 14:59:30 +0200
Subject: Decorator syntax
Message-ID: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA1A@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>

Hi,

Michael Ekstrand wrote:

> def(staticmethod) somemethod(self, args):
>     some code

could you or someone else please enlighten me, as someone who wasn't
following the decorator syntax discussion, why this syntax was ruled
out?

It still (after looking up some of the discussed alternatives) seems
to be the most appropriate to me, esp. since core changes seem to be
acceptable to get a useful decorator syntax.


tia,

andreas



From roy at panix.com  Tue Aug 17 10:03:14 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:03:14 -0400
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<h4nph0lprkrhj95tecvtmkpl5hm52815j3@4ax.com>
	<+zOIBls/Kj3Q089yn@the-wire.com>
	<5353i0l2qgl7c4jgskb0f0j5rkpgsd6aul@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <roy-5C4DDE.10031417082004@reader1.panix.com>

In article <5353i0l2qgl7c4jgskb0f0j5rkpgsd6aul at 4ax.com>,
 Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:21:02 -0400, mwilson at the-wire.com (Mel Wilson)
> declaimed the following in comp.lang.python:
> 
> >    Column 72 is the last one available for statment text,
> > according to this IBM 888157 card here.
> >
> 	Well, at least I didn't extend into the "sequence number"
> field... It's been some 26 years since I last created a FORTRAN layout
> drum card.

I remember when I first found out about drum cards.  That was cool.  And 
people thing language-sensitive editors are something new, huh?


From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu  Thu Aug 26 14:35:18 2004
From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Daniel Yoo)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 18:35:18 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: How to generically transform a list?
References: <mailman.2429.1093531645.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cglah6$2o5m$1@agate.berkeley.edu>

Marco Aschwanden <PPNTWIMBXFFC at spammotel.com> wrote:

: Suppose you have a list of lists:

: theList = [['a',1,11,'aa'], ['b',2,22,'bb'],['c',3,33,'cc']]

: I would like to have a GENERIC way how to turn this list of list into 
: another list of list.
: - A user can choose which columns she wants
: - A user can select the order of the columns


It sounds like you want something like the 'cut' Unix command.  Here's
one way to do it.

###
def cut(iterable, columns):
    """Selects columns from the iterable."""
    for row in iter(iterable):
        yield(tuple([row[i] for i in columns]))
###



For example:

###
>>> l = [['1', '2', '3'],
...      ['a', 'b', 'c'],
...      ['ka', 'na', 'da']]
>>>
>>> for row in cut(l, (2, 0, 1)): print row
...
('3', '1', '2')
('c', 'a', 'b')
('da', 'ka', 'na')
>>>
>>> for row in cut(l, (2, 1)): print row
...
('3', '2')
('c', 'b')
('da', 'na')
###


Hope this helps!


From jeffrey at I.slack  Tue Aug 10 00:10:47 2004
From: jeffrey at I.slack (Jeffrey Froman)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 21:10:47 -0700
Subject: decorators as a special case of an @ operator?
References: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>
	<87llgocrgq.fsf@uwo.ca> <DdSdnQot5MbxAIrcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <10hgim7min4gg55@corp.supernews.com>

Peter Hansen wrote:

> I believe those of us who prefer to see the name first really
> prefer to see something we might call the definition (and
> "def" is well-named here) which includes a sign that we are
> defining a function, very near the name, and preferably with
> the argument list also very close (since it is generally quite
> important to a reader)

For me, it's much more about the visual association of related statements.
Whitespace is critical for visual association in Python, and having
decorators floating above a definition absolutely wrecks the whole top-down
indentation scheme. I could learn to get used to the '@', because that
really *is* just a decorator, but having referential statements ride on top
of a function definition *breaks* the way python reads.

So I like Dan's idea as far as that goes, but in the same way I can also
live with

def f():
    @decorator1
    @decorator2

Jeffrey


From richie at entrian.com  Wed Aug 25 12:13:58 2004
From: richie at entrian.com (Richie Hindle)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:13:58 +0100
Subject: Desperately needing Help with 2 features of a program
In-Reply-To: <f9d01b73.0408250730.ed28f89@posting.google.com>
References: <f9d01b73.0408250730.ed28f89@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <g1epi0loaf3v9gmdcat6obc7u4sk4kum3c@4ax.com>


[Justin]
> 1.  Update the label on a radiobox

rb.SetItemLabel(3, "Richie's stuff") 

> 2.  Create a downlaod status progress bar.  (I guess this has to be
> threaded, many attempts led to endless erros about not using the
> proper thread to interact with the GUI)

That's more than a one-liner.  8-)

The Wiki page at http://wiki.wxpython.org/index.cgi/LongRunningTasks talks
about this kind of problem at length, and includes a couple of alternatives
to using threads.

When using threading in a GUI, the number one rule is that only the main
thread can access the GUI.  Worker threads that want to update the GUI must
do so by posting events to the main thread.  The way a typical wxPython
program does this is by defining its own event class and using wxPostEvent
to post instances of that event class to the main thread.

-- 
Richie Hindle
richie at entrian.com



From f.geiger at vol.at  Thu Aug  5 14:46:55 2004
From: f.geiger at vol.at (F. GEIGER)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 20:46:55 +0200
Subject: MySQLdb select
References: <lGIOc.4961$AY5.4762@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com><ceg5ca$ftn$1@newshispeed.ch>
	<mailman.1008.1091284523.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cetv3m$ruu$1@newshispeed.ch>

"Gerhard H?ring" <gh at ghaering.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:mailman.1008.1091284523.5135.python-list at python.org...


> That's particularly BAD STYLE. It's best to keep to letting the DB-API
> do the proper quoting for all parameters.


Well, yes.

So I tried this:

>>> import MySQLdb as ms
>>> con = ms.connect(db="isa",user="root")
>>> cur = con.cursor()
>>> cur.execute("select id from %s limit 10;", ("tagevents",))
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
  File "C:\PROGRA~1\Python23\lib\site-packages\MySQLdb\cursors.py", line 95,
in execute
    return self._execute(query, args)
  File "C:\PROGRA~1\Python23\lib\site-packages\MySQLdb\cursors.py", line
114, in _execute
    self.errorhandler(self, exc, value)
  File "C:\PROGRA~1\Python23\lib\site-packages\MySQLdb\connections.py", line
33, in defaulterrorhandler
    raise errorclass, errorvalue
_mysql_exceptions.ProgrammingError: (1064, "You have an error in your SQL
syntax.  Check the manual that corresponds to
your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near ''tagevents'
limit 10' at line 1")
>>>

Hmm, despite the fact, that it is bad style, I tried:

>>> cur.execute("select id from %s limit 10;" % "tagevents")
10L
>>>

and succeeded.

Looks like MySQL doesn't like the quoting, MySQLdb seems to perform.

Okay, as you shouted to me "BAD STYLE" I presume, it had to work, if I only
did it right. So, what am I doing wrong? Or did I misconfig MySQL? Is MySQL
4.0 not yet supported?

My environment:

Win XP

Python 2.3.4 (#53, May 25 2004, 21:17:02) [MSC v.1200 32 bit (Intel)] on
win32
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.

Welcome to the MySQL monitor.  Commands end with ; or \g.
Your MySQL connection id is 7 to server version: 4.0.20a-nt

 MySQLdb 1.0.0


Kind regards
Franz GEIGER


"Gerhard H?ring" <gh at ghaering.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:mailman.1008.1091284523.5135.python-list at python.org...
> F. GEIGER wrote:
> > "John Fabiani" <jfabiani at yolo.com> schrieb:
> >
> >>Hi,
> >> I'm a newbie and I'm attempting to learn howto create a select
statement.
> >>When I use
> >>
> >>>>>string1='18 Tadlock Place'
> >>>>>cursor.execute("SELECT * FROM mytest where address = %s",string1)
> >>
> >>All works as expected.  But
> >>
> >>>>>numb=10
> >>>>>cursor.execute("SELECT * FROM mytest where clientID = %d",numb)
>  >> [...] raise errorclass, errorvalue
>  >>TypeError: int argument required
>  >>
>
> Then use %i for integers ;-)
>
> > I'm used to do that this way:
> >
> > cursor.execute("SELECT * FROM mytest where clientID = %d" % numb)
>
> That's particularly BAD STYLE. It's best to keep to letting the DB-API
> do the proper quoting for all parameters.
>
> -- Gerhard




From dalcolmo at vh-s.de  Thu Aug 12 03:29:58 2004
From: dalcolmo at vh-s.de (Josef Dalcolmo)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:29:58 +0200
Subject: Rather than decorators, how about sections?
References: <mailman.1509.1092238688.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20040812092958.000052e2@titan>


May I point out that the term "static" comes from its use in a particular language and is used for two semantically different purposes. I don't think the word reveals the meaning very well. I strongly suggest to use a different term, that describes better what it does.

some ideas:

instance - class
noninheritable - inheritable
specific - generic
this - all
(self, var) - (-, var)

- Josef


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Mon Aug  2 20:14:21 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 17:14:21 -0700
Subject: transforming a list into a string
References: <pan.2004.07.31.12.27.23.547000@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <1091493038.723672@news.commspeed.net>


"jblazi" <jblazi at hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.07.31.12.27.23.547000 at hotmail.com...
> Let us assume I have a list like
>
> ['1','2','7','8','12','13]
>
> and would like to transoform it into the string
>
> '{1,2},{7,8},{12,13}'
>
> Which is the simplest way of achiebing this? (The list is in fact much
> longer and I may have to cut the resulting strings into chunks of 100 or
> so.)
>
> TIA,
>
> jb
>
Heres a one-liner,
>>>items = ['1','2','7','8','12','13']
>>>[(items[x],items[x+1]) for x in range(0,len(items)-1,2)]
[('1', '2'), ('7', '8'), ('12', '13')]

Tom




From b.niemann at betternet.de  Tue Aug 31 08:19:58 2004
From: b.niemann at betternet.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:19:58 +0200
Subject: txt2xls
In-Reply-To: <4edc17eb.0408310401.6abf866c@posting.google.com>
References: <4edc17eb.0408310401.6abf866c@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <ch1qdd$jd0$1@online.de>

Perhaps this could help you:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/pyxlwriter/

Michele Simionato wrote:

> In would like to convert very simple text files into .xls
> files and I need some help.
> 
> Here is the format of a typical file:
> 
> # begin table.txt
> 
> This should go in the first row,
> first column.
> 
> This should go in the first row,
> second column.
> 
> ====
> 
> This should go in the second row,
> first column.
> 
> This should go in the second row,
> second column.
> 
> ====
> 
> This should go in the third row,
> first column.
> 
> This should go in the third row,
> second column.
> 
> # end table.txt
> 
> "====" separates different rows, whereas different colums are separated
> by an empty line. table.txt should be converted into a table.xls 
> file containing a 3x2 table like this:
> 
>    ================================     ================================
>    This should go in the first row,     This should go in the first row,
>    first column.                        second column.
>    --------------------------------     --------------------------------
>    This should go in the second row,    This should go in the second row,
>    first column.                        second column.
>    --------------------------------     --------------------------------
>    This should go in the third row,     This should go in the third row,
>    first column.                        second column.
>    ================================     ================================
> 
> I use OpenOffice on Linux, but I have no experience at all about the .xls
> format, so I would welcome help/pointers and especially snippets of code ;)
> TIA,
> 
>                   Michele Simionato


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Mon Aug 23 10:07:42 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:07:42 GMT
Subject: __name__ becoming read-write?
Message-ID: <uutji0h87t24cb1nej03gdggs0hg6eno3l@4ax.com>



Did I hallucinate something about __name__ becoming read-write?

Not in alpha2.

Can't find the reference to this I thought I read - that it was
concluded to be necessary in connection with PEP318.

Better get my facts straight first....

But if true that would seem to solve the main objection to:

the_horrible_name_I _need_to_call=transform(__f)

And would mean that a byproduct of the PEP318 implementation would go
50% toward obviating the need for a PEP318 implementation.  At least
by one measure.

But the whole thing might be a hallucination.

Art


From kosh at aesaeion.com  Fri Aug 13 15:23:14 2004
From: kosh at aesaeion.com (kosh)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:23:14 -0600
Subject: Why I love python.
In-Reply-To: <slrnchq2br.am7.npat@gray.efault.net>
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<2o4divF6one2U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<slrnchq2br.am7.npat@gray.efault.net>
Message-ID: <200408131323.14210.kosh@aesaeion.com>

On Friday 13 August 2004 12:33 pm, Nick Patavalis wrote:
> On 2004-08-13, Reinhold Birkenfeld

> Yes, that's exactly what I meant. The only solution in such a case
> would be for the environment to call the compiler at run time, and
> compile classobj then. This means of course that in such cases the
> compiler must be included in the "executable".
>

Why is there a need for a stand alone executable? At least on all the unixes 
whether something is executable is just determined by the executable bit on 
the file. I can execute a python program just as transparently as one in 
compiled c, c++,  etc. I really don't see the point of that.

Overall I would rather that there was more reliance on runtimes and that psyco 
was improved to the point that it was just part of python and could save its 
jited versions of code for reuse later. That way I can upgrade libraries, the 
runtime etc and as long as the system is still source compatible the 
application would still work and it would speed up as it ran as things where 
compiled to optimized code as needed.

Overall I think that standalone binaries are bad long term. I would prefer 
source compatibility since that is more flexible long term. With a jit the 
code should run just as fast but it would make things like security update 
and updating pieces of the system simpler.

> I believe this has been done in other dynamic languages.
>
> Typed-extensions, as you mention, would also help.
>
> /npat


From shane.holloway at ieee.org  Wed Aug 11 18:16:51 2004
From: shane.holloway at ieee.org (Shane Holloway (IEEE))
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:16:51 -0600
Subject: Question
In-Reply-To: <002b01c47fdd$bf0c2280$4e01a8c0@dagan>
References: <002b01c47fdd$bf0c2280$4e01a8c0@dagan>
Message-ID: <411A9AD3.2020401@ieee.org>

Dag,

If you want to execute python-type statements, then you will want to use 
eval().  However, if your input is limited to smaller expressions, you 
can parse the input into pieces and then interpret them.

So, what I'm saying is that you need to provide more information.  What 
subset of eval's functionality do you need?

Regards,
-Shane Holloway

Dag Hansteen wrote:
 > I make a GUI calculator in wxPython.
 > How can I do the following without having to use eval?:
 >
 >     def OnCalc(self, event):
 >         try:
 >             regnestykke = self.formel.GetValue()
 >             svar = eval(regnestykke)
 >             svar = str(svar)
 >             self.answer.SetValue(svar)
 >         except:
 >             self.answer.SetValue("Error! Check Syntax!")
 >
 > """
 > self.formel is defined as wxTextCtrl for the input from user to be
 > calculated
 > self.answer is defined as wxTextCtrl for the answer of the users input
 > """


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Thu Aug 26 09:00:41 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:00:41 GMT
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>
	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>
	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 21:05:46 +1000, Anthony Baxter
<anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>def foo():
>    __name__ = '%s_banana'%(__name__) 
>


I'm not sure what you are driving at here, but ...

Aa a practical matter, wouldn't it be nice to be able to use string
substitution on a docstring placed in its usual location under def
foo().

That I need to place my __doc__ under the function can't be considered
a good thing, or intutive thing.

Sort of like having to do transformations after and under the function
;)

Art


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Fri Aug 20 18:59:18 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:59:18 -0500
Subject: decorator J4 - any objections?
References: <cab22418.0408201006.16f163b2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <H5ydnQFIZezZH7vcRVn-iQ@comcast.com>

If docstring can be a special case of a triple quoted
string, I don't see why decorators couldn't be a special
case of a dictionary.

def func(arg1, arg2):
    {'version': 'Added in 2.4',
     'returns': None,
     'docstring': 'Docstring could be here, or in decorator part above'}
     """Docstring could be here, or in decorator part above"""

or perhaps:


def func(arg1, arg2):
    #
    # Similiar to class __dict__
    #
    __decorators__=__{'version': 'Added in 2.4',
                      'returns': None,
                      'docstring': 'Docstring could be here, or in decorator
part above'}
    """Docstring could be here, or in decorator part above"""


I'm sure there is a reason, but it would seem to make
"Python"-sense to me.  It would then be very extensible
for the meta-data that everyone seems to also want decorators
to support.



"Jim Jewett" <JimJJewett at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cab22418.0408201006.16f163b2 at posting.google.com...
> Guido has said that he is open to considering *one* alternative
> decorator syntax.  At the moment, (Phillip Eby's suggestion) J4
>
> <URL: http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators > (section 5.21 J4)
>
> looks very good to me -- and it is the only alternative without negatives.
>
>    def func(arg1, arg2)
>        @version("Added in 2.4")
>        @returns(None)
>    as:
>        """Docstring could be here, or in decorator part above"""
>        # body goes here
>
> (Note the lack of colon on the func line; adding it would be more
> consistent and not hurt readability.)
>
>    def func(arg1, arg2):
>        @version("Added in 2.4")
>        @returns(None)
>    as:
>        """Docstring could be here, or in decorator part above"""
>        # body goes here
>
> While I think this is the best solution so far, I realize that others
> have often disagreed with me on this issue -- so I would appreciate
> some feedback, particularly from those who don't like the J4 syntax.
>
> Disclosure:  I like decorators on their own, but they are enough of
> a special case that I worry about cluttering up the language as a
> whole.  J4 seems the best compromise to me, but I could also make
> peace with Guido's current @proposal.
>
> -jJ




From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Wed Aug 18 06:21:20 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:21:20 +0200
Subject: Swing/Metalworks for Python
References: <41224ea4$1@news.broadpark.no>
Message-ID: <cfvaj0$n37$01$1@news.t-online.com>

Gisle Vanem wrote:

> I was quite impressed by this toolkit in the latest Java SDK 1.5
> (not sure if it's new in this version or not). But are there any similar
> toolkits for Python that allows switching Look & Feel and Themes
> in the same way?

qt - free for *nixes, commercially available for windows. And the best
toolkit I've worked with.

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From cy.fbp.eryvtvne at ncbybtrglxn.pbz  Fri Aug 27 04:04:10 2004
From: cy.fbp.eryvtvne at ncbybtrglxn.pbz (JZ)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:04:10 +0200
Subject: Mysql in Python?
References: <cglb3o$fsk@odak26.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <1a0o0u8an8yhn$.1aby5k5hmj67d.dlg@40tude.net>

26 Aug 2004 11:45:12 -0700, na comp.lang.python, Simon John napisa?(a):

> Probably the only thing keeping me with database coding in PHP instead
> of Python is that it's so unclear what should be used for what!

Using PHP native database functions is a very bad idea. All experencied
programmers use more abstract db wrappers like ADOdb
(http://adodb.sourceforge.net/). There is ADOdb version for Python as well.
Other pythonic modules are DB-API2 compatible so there is no such mess like
PHP native functions.

> It's a similar thing for templating systems - there's too much choice,
> and nothing has really become "the standard". I never thought I'd
> complain about too much choice!

There is no PHP standard templating system. PHP itself is a template
framework! (although no one experienced want to use its mixing php and html
mess). Check ezPublish, Invision Board, phpBB or others bigger projects. No
one keep with one, standard template framework.

--
JZ


From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 03:10:26 2004
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 00:10:26 -0700
Subject: Python and C, looking for a C IDE
References: <6f402501.0408240353.2a5b8a84@posting.google.com>
	<du74qmstkb3.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>
Message-ID: <6f402501.0408242310.48e095c@posting.google.com>

Ville Vainio <ville at spammers.com> wrote in message news:<du74qmstkb3.fsf at lehtori.cc.tut.fi>...
> >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Foord <fuzzyman at gmail.com> writes:
> 
>     Michael> That aside - Pyrex looks the kiddie. Can anyone reccomend
>     Michael> a reasonable C IDE ? An 'IDE' would be nice, but an
>     Michael> editor might be sufficient.
> 
> IDE isn't really necessary for C - OO/modular languages like Java/C++
> benefit more from IDEs. You might do better by just picking an editor
> (e.g. something like Emacs or Jed) and putting the compilation
> commands in a python script (or a bat file), or learn make.
> 
> Then again, there is Eclipse, the IDE to end all IDEs. It supports
> C/C++ too.

Ahh... 'the one true IDE'... at last I've found it ;-)
I think I've heard good things about eclipse.

I might just use Ultraedit though (my favourite editor) and as you say
investigate automating the compile cycle...... I probably *ought* to
learn make, but I'd rather script it myself.

Regards,


Fuzzy
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 28 02:44:19 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 08:44:19 +0200
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<1LMXc.67190$UTP.37420@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj7a9r.g7ec5a1g89rj0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<IbOXc.67282$UTP.36370@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
Message-ID: <1gj8026.1w7jkq6u3fiegN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Dan Perl <dperl at rogers.com> wrote:

> I thought about submitting a recipe but I couldn't think of a way to use it
> in a good code 'snippet'.  I am using the zipimport feature now to save
> several configuration files together in a zip file (so I can have many
> configurations saved in a convenient format, better than a new directory for
> each configuration).  That would be more of an example for using multiple
> configurations but, anyway, it doesn't make for a short, well-contained
> example.  Sorry, Alex.

Alas!  Your analysis seems spot-on and is pretty close to why I haven't
done a zipimport recipe myself -- it's a very useful feature but it's
not easy to think of a way to show it off in a recipe that's just how
recipes should be -- short, self-contained, readable.  We can still hope
that somebody else does think of something...

> 
> BTW, there are two books on Python that I keep on my Safari bookshelf:
> 'Python Cookbook' and 'Learning Python'.  So my jab was made will all the
> respect I can muster.  I am really looking forward to the second edition,
> recipe on zipimport or not.

I did take your friendly jab as just that, friendly and pleasant, and
answered in just the same vein.  (I do hope the reason the Nutshell
isn't on your Safari bookshelf is that you have the paper copy always at
hand, right?-)


Alex


From tim at vegeta.ath.cx  Fri Aug 27 22:14:08 2004
From: tim at vegeta.ath.cx (Tim Hammerquist)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 02:14:08 -0000
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<776e0325.0408260433.449660c8@posting.google.com>
	<412dfc1c$0$65599$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<86hdqpriww.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<412e199e$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<jdoherty-2708041631070001@192.168.2.178>
Message-ID: <slrncivqll.j8f.tim@vegeta.saiyix>

John Doherty <jdoherty at nowhere.null.not> wrote:
> Grant Edwards <grante at visi.com> wrote:
> > Of course, but are they consistently indented using tabs or spaces?
>  
> AND HOW MANY SPACES PER TAB STOP?

You just reminded me of the infamous variable naming debate:

  - visualBasicStyle
  - javaStyle
  - perl_style
  - jumbledstyle

/me ducks out as sparks fly.... 

Tim Hammerquist


From dustin at jabberdust.com  Sun Aug  8 00:15:04 2004
From: dustin at jabberdust.com (Dustin)
Date: 7 Aug 2004 21:15:04 -0700
Subject: ThreadingTCPServer, asyncore and Client-to-Client communication
Message-ID: <81efeef2.0408072015.60addf38@posting.google.com>

I've been trying to create a "byte streaming server", it's basically a
chat server, but I'd like to use it for transfering large amounts of
data between two connected clients.  Sounds simple enough, but I'm
having a difficult time implementing it.

If Client #1 connects, then that thread is consumed with listening for
data from that client.  If Client #2 connects, that client is on a
different thread, and therefore I don't see how I can have data sent
from Client #1 to be streamed down to Client #2.  (and how can client
process #1 accept data from client #2 because it's listening to client
#1?)  Obviously I'm missing something.

I've looked at asyncore/asynchat, as well as ThreadingTCPServer... but
there's something I'm missing.  Is there a simple way to have an
object listen over two ports, and what comes into one port will be
sent down the another?

Any advice, or a good swift kick in the right direction would be
appreciated.
Dustin


From http  Sat Aug 21 21:20:53 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 18:20:53 -0700
Subject: Getting benifits of database transactions in an OO way?
References: <2oq8pmFdd2nfU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <7xk6vsklxm.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Leif K-Brooks <eurleif at ecritters.biz> writes:
> import people
> fred = people.find_by_name('Fred Flintstone')
> barney = people.find_by_name('Barney Rubble')
> fred.money -= 10
> barney.money += 10
> fred.save_data()
> barney.save_data()
> 
> Right now, the Person.save_data method also commits the current
> database transaction. But that seems to remove the benifit of having a
> database with transactions: If something dies between the call to
> fred.save_data() and barney.save_data(), Fred's $10 will end up in a
> black hole somewhere.

You have to use transactions for that.  E.g.

    import people
    this_transaction = people.begin_transaction()
    fred = this_transaction.find_by_name('Fred Flintstone')
    barney = this_transaction.find_by_name('Barney Rubble')
    fred.money -= 10
    barney.money += 10
    this_transaction.finish_transaction()


From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  6 19:32:59 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 19:32:59 -0400
Subject: PEP-0318
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1251.1091764482.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <41122FC2.1080608@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1251.1091764482.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4114152f@nntp.zianet.com>

Skip Montanaro wrote:
> Incorporation of all or part of
> http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecoratorsinto the PEP would also be
> appreciated.

Neat page. I would like to flesh out (5.D), though, as it is not quite 
just "(5.C) with pie syntax" like the document currently states:

     E. pie decorator at top of function body syntax

     def foo(arg1,arg2):
         @classmethod
         ...

     def bar(low,high):
         @accepts(int,int)
         @returns(float)
         ...

     * + Java-like, so not completely unknown to everyone.
     * + Makes the syntax obvious visually
     * + Will not be silently ignored
     * + Compile-time
     * + One decorator per line
     * + Separate from the def syntax (desired by some for making
         decoration stand out and keeping def the same)
     * + Consistent with how docstrings are used.
     * + Looks ok for simple or complex decorators
     * + Won't break simplistic code analyzers or grep for function def
     * + Solves line wrap problem with proposal (5.C)
     * + Shouldn't break in interactive shell
     * + Easily foldable, the decorations are all "in" the function.
     * + @ symbol makes syntax coloring easier than trying to identify
         normal syntactic elements (e.g., lists) in magic positions.
     * + @ symbol makes it obvious that the decoration is not a normal
         statement.

     * 0 Perhaps decorators should be allowed before or after the
         docstring. If you have to choose, I'd choose making it before
         the docstring.
     * 0 The @ character is often used (in other languages) to mean
         "attribute". For annotations, this is good. For more active
         decorators, it may not be so good.
     * 0 Could use @doc too as a docstring alternative

     * - Separate from the def syntax (undesired by some for simple
         decorators like classmethod/staticmethod)
     * - Ugly?
     * - Introduces a new character in the language
     * - The @ special character is used in IPython and Leo, though not
         in this context (right?)
     * - Punctuation-based syntax raises Perlfears.
     * - @staticmethod may look like staticmethod is not a defined
         variable, but a compile time option
     * - "Buried" after a potentially-long list of arguments, which can
         make them harder to spot.
     * - Lots of decorators will make it harder to find the start of the
         function implementation. Then again, so will a large docstring.

I would also like to add a few points to (5.A):

     * + @ symbol makes syntax coloring easier than trying to identify
         normal syntactic elements (e.g., lists) in magic positions.
     * + @ symbol makes it obvious that the decoration is not a normal
         statement.

     * - Requires the programmer to keep track of a potentially-large
         number of stacked up decorators before even knowing what is
         being decorated.
     * - Because of no indentation, looks confusing when definitions are
         not separated by empty lines. But adding empty lines makes it
         hard to determine where the function definition truly starts.
     * - Cannot be folded easily, since an arbitrary number of "leader
         lines" should also be folded into the function. This will
         involve a lot of reverse scanning of the file.

I would be happy to add these myself if someone would tell me how?

   -- Mark


From fumanchu at amor.org  Sun Aug 22 10:38:49 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 07:38:49 -0700
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E26@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Just to put collected wisdom in one spot for now, here's what's in my
draft:


III. Choosing a keyword

If a keyword is to be chosen over @ or other punctuation, the question
remains, "which word should it be?" Many words have been proposed, and
although we may recommend a small number here, it is more important that
we establish guidelines for the selection of a keyword. The keyword: 

-Should not be used widely as an identifier in existing Python code. 
-Should be easy to remember when writing new code. 
-Should be easy to remember when reading existing code. 
-Should be easy to search for, in both docs and Google. 
-Should not be a word with a planned future. This rules out "with" and
"as" (I should probably footnote this). 
-In this author's opinion (back me up here, people), it should not be a
form of the word "decorate". The term "decorate" conflicts with two
separate concepts: both the GoF Decorator pattern (which is a runtime
wrapper, not a compile-time one), and with our own beloved
"decorate-sort-undecorate" pattern (aka Schwartzian or Guttman-Rosler
Transform). 

-Candidates for keywords have fallen into two or three camps, and
emphasize different aspects of decorators: 

-Declarative: declare, predef, moddef 
-Transformative: transform, wrap, modify, mutate 
-Attributive/Annotative: amend, using, having 
-Directive: pragma, signify 
-Associative: helper, qualify, qual, meta 
-Cross-cutting: imbue, endow, bestow, embellish, extend, accum, glom,
confer
-Prepositions/Adverbs: using, through, per, via, by


I had an ugly paragraph promoting 'declare' as a top candidate, but I've
always liked 'using' (which many of you promoted within the past 24
hours). Maybe the above will produce further polarization among you. ;)


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From dave at boost-consulting.com  Wed Aug 25 15:24:35 2004
From: dave at boost-consulting.com (David Abrahams)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:24:35 -0400
Subject: Unpythonic Python
References: <8a638f47.0408240034.653a92ff@posting.google.com>
	<zn4lvsib.fsf@python.net>
	<8a638f47.0408240700.13c39f57@posting.google.com>
	<uzn4j2s38.fsf@boost-consulting.com>
	<Xns9550A6C7E36FFukcoREMOVEfreenetrtw@130.133.1.4>
	<uy8k31as1.fsf@boost-consulting.com>
	<Xns9550B8F61B65EukcoREMOVEfreenetrtw@130.133.1.4>
Message-ID: <u8yc3yqa4.fsf@boost-consulting.com>

Rob Williscroft <rtw at freenet.co.uk> writes:

> David Abrahams wrote in news:uy8k31as1.fsf at boost-consulting.com in
> comp.lang.python: 
>
>> Rob Williscroft <rtw at freenet.co.uk> writes:
>> 
>>> David Abrahams wrote in news:uzn4j2s38.fsf at boost-consulting.com in
>>> comp.lang.python: 
>>>
>>>>> That's not the problem.  I can download the file reliably from
>>>>> other machines. 
>>>
>>> At the same time, using http ?
>> 
>> I can download the file reliably using IE from my WinXP box.
>> 
>> I can download the file reliably using urllib from Cygwin Python 2.3.2
>> 
>> The 2nd element returned by urlretrieve is 
>
> Which version, the one that works or the one that doesn't ?
>
>> 
>>   'Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:50:17 GMT\r\nServer: Apache/2.0.40 (Red
>>   Hat Linux)\r\nLast-Modified: Wed, 25 Aug 20 2 GMT\r\nETag:

The one that works.

> Something is missing here:
>
>   Last-Modified: Wed, 25 Aug 20 2 GMT
>
> Contrast:
>
>   Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:50:17 GMT

Where did that come from, what do you think is missing, and why?

>>   "b63d5b-20ec84b-18057e80"\r\nAccept-Ranges: bytes\r\nContent-Length:
>>   34523211\r\nContent-Type: n/x-bzip2\r\nConnection: close\r\n'
>
> 34 MB's ( I got 6 MB's )

It's 34MB.

>>>> Trying again with Python 2.3 on Cygwin.
>> 
>> As you can see from the above, it works.  Is there a known urllib bug
>> in earlier Pythons?
>
> Sorry I don't know, but I've seen the same truncation with no python,
> and no unix.

Argh.

>>> Is it possible the file is being (re) uploaded (via cvs) during your 
>>> cron job's download, thus truncating your download ?
>> 
>> I don't think so.
>
> Can you test wether or not this is happening ? I.e if you don't
> get the full 34523211 bytes re-download and compare the above
> Length, ETag and Last-Modified.
>

I did some tests, but didn't come up with anything conclusive.  I set
my cron job to start 3 hours later.  We'll see.

>>> Perhapse you should change to cvs:
>>>
>>>   os.system( 'cvs ... ' )
>> 
>> The problem with that is that I want to capture the whole CVS
>> history, not just today's state.
>
> I was suggesting you get the tarball via cvs, though presumably
> sourceforge don't give you the option. 

No they don't.

> http has the problem that
> the server will just truncate the download if the source file
> gets replaced.
>
>> 
>>> FWIW, I tried downlading with IE using the link above I got a
>>> truncated 6 and bit MB's (16:15 BST (UTC +0100)).
>>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> 
>> Sorry, what does that mean?  Did it show that message in a dialog,
>> or...?
>> 
>
> No, I got a download complete, but the file was only 6 MB's, bzip2 -t 
> told me the file was truncated, the (16:15 ...) is the time I tried
> downloading, BST = British Summer Time, though you wouldn't know it 
> from the weather :).
>
> Further I just ran:
>
> import urllib
>
> filename, headers = \
>     urllib.urlretrieve(
>         'http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cvstarballs/boost-cvsroot.tar.bz2', 
>         'boost-cvsroot.tar.bz2')
>
> print filename
>
> print headers
>
> boost-cvsroot.tar.bz2
> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:53:20 GMT
> Server: Apache/2.0.40 (Red Hat Linux)
> Last-Modified: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:14:02 GMT
> ETag: "b63d5b-20ec84b-18057e80"
> Accept-Ranges: bytes
> Content-Length: 34523211
> Content-Type: application/x-bzip2
> Connection: close
>
> The script ended at 17::59 BST, Note the difference bettween the two
> times in the headers, suggesting the file was modified 1:45 min's
> ago ~ the same time my attempted download with IE failed.

That's odd!  Your (failed) download modified the file being
downloaded??

-- 
Dave Abrahams
Boost Consulting
http://www.boost-consulting.com


From graeme.longman at tangozebra.com  Wed Aug  4 12:21:58 2004
From: graeme.longman at tangozebra.com (Graeme Longman)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 17:21:58 +0100
Subject: Finding all time periods for a given interval within a date range
Message-ID: <MFEFIJMOMBBFIJOOCGHJIEOFCCAA.graeme.longman@tangozebra.com>

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if anyone has written some Python code which uses a start
date and end date and a given interval (day, month or year) and outputs all
the time periods for that range and interval.

For example you may wish to find all the months between the dates
'2004-02-14' and '2004-08-04'. You would maybe use a function where you pass
in those starting and ending dates and the interval 'month' and you'd get
back a list of those months. I guess you would need to year part of the date
too, so ['2004-02', '2004-03', '2004-04', '2004-05', '2004-06', '2004-07',
'2004-08']. If you had passed in 'day' as the interval then you would be
given back a list of all the days in those months.

This is pretty specific but I would appreciate anything similar or even a
good pointing in the right direction of which modules to use. I've taken a
look at 'time' and 'calendar' but all I could see what the
'calendar.calendar' function which would require quite a bit of string
processing after getting the calendar strings.

Thanks for any help :-)
Graeme





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From edreamleo at charter.net  Wed Aug  4 16:42:19 2004
From: edreamleo at charter.net (Edward K. Ream)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 15:42:19 -0500
Subject: Confused about pep 318
Message-ID: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>

Hello all,

First of all, my present state of mind re pep 318 is one of sheepish
confusion.  I suspect pep 318 will not affect Leo significantly, but I am
most surprised that an apparently controversial feature is being added
without a notice, say, in comp.lang.python.announce.  I say sheepish,
because everyone knows that one should make sure new proposals don't bite
you.  Still, I would have thought that there were other ways of keeping
abreast of potentially major changes to Python besides reading py-dev...

The following are some comments to recent posts on py-dev.  I hope to convey
by these remarks my sense of bewilderment.

> There is little point in going over all the same arguments again and
again. For this alpha release, no amount of arguing will change what has
been committed. You really have to organize a public outcry if you want the
syntax changed before 2.4. [Martin v. L?wis]

I'd like to defer the question of a "public outcry" until later, hopefully
much later.

But I have no idea what the proposed syntax is(!!) In particular, there is
no mention of '@' directly on the page
http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0318.html

Is there a summary of recent work?  An announcement?  Some indication of
consensus?

> > In general, I predict most Python code will continue to be blissfully
unadorned with decorators.

> Right.  Outside the test suite, there are very few uses of classmethod,
staticmethod and property in the standard library. GvR

Hmm... I see nowhere in pep 318 any mention that the pep will affect the
following section of the Reference manual:
http://docs.python.org/ref/delimiters.html

[quote]
The following printing ASCII characters are not used in Python. Their
occurrence outside string literals and comments is an unconditional error:
@       $       ?
[end quote]

I would regard any change to this paragraph as a major change to Python, in
spite of its innocent appearance.   Indeed, this paragraph is an excellent
"line in the sand" for other tools.

To repeat, I suspect adding @ would not affect Leo significantly in any
direct way, and a workaround would probably exist even if it did.  However,
this proposal probably would affect the noweb markup language on which Leo
is (loosely) based.  See http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~nr/noweb/

BTW, a long while back I suggested that there was no reason for the parser
to need colons after "if" statements, etc.  The response was: true, but
allowing colons to be elided would impact existing tools.  So I gave up.  Am
I the first to suggest that allowing '@' characters in valid Python programs
outside string literals and comments might negatively impact existing tools?

> Sigh.  This discussion is going around in pointless circles; we're
*months* past that point.  You're wasting your time (and mine). [GvR]

I confess that I don't understand this remark at all.  How has it happened
that so many people are confused about this proposal?  And if everything is
so clear, why isn't the clarity reflected in pep 318 itself?

http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0318.html talks about

- Background
- Design goals
- Proposed syntax (no mention of @!)
- Alternative proposals
etc.

Excuse me, but if everything is now set in stone, then this is an
extraordinarily misleading document.

> Sorry.  I think you'd be wise to consider the months without consensus as
evidence of a problem. [Jim Fulton]

This is my present opinion as well.

Summary

I wish to disavow any knowledge, or any interest in, the wider issues of
whether pep 318 is a good idea or not.  My concern is exclusively with the
following two issues:

1.  IMO, allowing '@' in valid Python programs (outside string literals or
comments) is a major change to the language that has significant potential
to disrupt already existing tools.  At the very least, some discussion of
http://docs.python.org/ref/delimiters.html should be in pep 318.

2.  pep 318 apparently does not reflect the present state of affairs, and
afaik there has been no announcement of proposed changes on
comp.lang.python.announce.  This is disturbing.  If anyone could clarify the
present status of pep 318 I would be most grateful.  I would prefer not to
be told to read all the py-dev archives.  If everything is now clear, where
can I find out about it?

Edward
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Edward K. Ream   email:  edreamleo at charter.net
Leo: Literate Editor with Outlines
Leo: http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------




From brett at python.org  Tue Aug 24 22:51:43 2004
From: brett at python.org (Brett C.)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 19:51:43 -0700
Subject: python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
References: <mailman.2274.1093330945.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<KlPWc.18779$v86.747@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8ab0589d.0408241851.7b46f49c@posting.google.com>

[SNIP - me going on about how I had wished Guido just pronounced on
decorators and moved on]
> "Well, then allow me to retort."
> 
> Up until PyCon in June, Guido was publicly leaning toward a C1-flavor of
> decorator syntax.  Apparently, there was sufficient furor by some audience
> members (not to quibble whether or not this group was in fact representative
> of all Python users) that Guido dropped back from it.  Sometime in June,
> @decorator seemed to drop from the sky - it was not even one of the top 2
> that GvR had in his keynote presentation - and by late July, it was suddenly
> to be found in the newly released 2.4a2.
> 

The '@' syntax had pretty much been discussed the whole time.  At the
end of PyCON Guido had a chance to talk to some other developers
toward the end of the conference that started to change his opinion. 
After the conference he stated that he was starting to strongly
consider the '@' syntax, and this was all public.

He then went to EuroPython.  Audience was much more perceptive to '@'
than other syntaxes.  Some more contemplation on Guido's part, and
that led to the '@' syntax.

But even had there not been any public discussion on Guido's part, I
still think it is fine that Guido didn't have a huge discussion before
making his final decision.  This is Guido's language and we all just
happen to love it.


> I guess my sin of omission was in not following python-dev directly, but
> instead relying on the natural checks and balances that have produced the
> beautiful Python language thus far.

And the final check is Guido.  =)

>  Despite the periodic reporting of
> python-dev summaries (thank you! BTW),

Welcome.

> and the April and June summaries of
> the decorator status, *not one* of these summaries announced the selection
> of "@decorator" before it was checked in and released - making it a seeming
> fait accompli.

No report because I didn't officially know until people started to
scream about it (I check my python-dev mail before python-checkins so
I didn't even see the checkin before the flood of mail started).

>  Contrast with the announcement of 'Generator expressions are
> in!' in your May summary, well in advance of the 2.4a release.
> 

That's just because it was all resolved way back when.  Had decorators
been resolved earlier it also would have gotten mentioned earlier.

People need to realize this is all alpha software, not beta. 
Everything can change and python-dev reserves the right to tweak stuff
up to b1.

> > At this point people should be hashing out which syntax alternative they
> > want to present to Guido on comp.lang.python_.  No more talking on
> > python-dev, no more syntax proposals.  The community should set a goal
> > date (Sept. 1 seems good) and just choose a bloody alternative.  Then
> > when Guido makes his choice people accept it or just go to another
> > language.  No one had better voice their disappoint once Guido chooses
> > his syntax or I will personally come beat you over with a stick for
> > being a whiner.
> >
> 
> Um, where have you been?

Sitting in my chair reading a lot of email.

>  It seemed to me that, instead of continued
> wallowing in a chaos of syntax discussions, that we collectively *were*
> working on "just choosing a bloody alternative."

Not how it looked on python-dev.  Story may have been that on c.l.py,
but on my side it was a ton of back and forth and people proposing
random syntaxes whenever an idea popped in their head.

>  I guess we've not been
> wholly successful, as there are still *two* popular contenders, but one is
> leading the other by more than 2-to-1, and a consensus measure shows an even
> greater level of, if not acceptance, at least tolerance.  c.l.py is a tough
> herd of cats!  Michael Sparks and Robert Brewer have voted in a measure
> beyond simply posting Usenet votes, and have completed the steps for one of
> the contenders to be considered by Guido.  The absence of champions for the
> other option may end up making the decision by default - too bad, actually.
> 

And that's great.  As I said, this was not reflected on python-dev *at
all*.  Robert sent an email today stating that he had a whole paper on
the syntax he was supporting.  He seems to be going about it the right
way and honestly I hope his wins just for the fact that he has put the
effort in.


> > OK, that's out of my system.  I feel better now.
> >
> 
> Well, good for you.  I also subscribe to a "no whining" philosophy, but I
> don't think it is unexpected nor unreasonable that the rapid selection,
> implementation, and release of "@decorator" took many by (unpleasant)
> surprise.
>  And am I the only one who has trouble reconciling your tirade
> with your encouragement to "take a stance" (in the emphasized section at
> top)?
> 

Maybe.  =)

The tirade was not on taking a stand.  It was at everybody fighting
this out on python-dev even after Guido told people to go off and
agree on a single syntax.  python-dev is not the place to have the
whole community duke it out over an alternative syntax.  *That* was
what the tirade was about.

> We can agree to disagree - I'll plead guilty to being a miserable lurker who
> up until recently was happy to rely on the wisdom of strangers - but allow
> me to take at least a little umbrage at your tirade.
> 

Sure, but I think you mistook me.  But even if you didn't, no problem.

-Brett


From vronskij at post.sk  Wed Aug 18 10:19:19 2004
From: vronskij at post.sk (vronskij at post.sk)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 07:19:19 -0700
Subject: How big can a Python program be?
References: <903b3fba.0408170333.49ce3944@posting.google.com>
	<412204d5$1$28243$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk>
Message-ID: <903b3fba.0408180619.4d41027e@posting.google.com>

Peter Hickman <peter at semantico.com> wrote in message news:<412204d5$1$28243$afc38c87 at news.easynet.co.uk>...
> vronskij at post.sk wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > A C program can be hundreds of thousands lines of code big.
> > C++ millions.
> > 
> > How about Python?
> > 
> > Suppose , you are a sole programmer (lonewolf). How many lines can one handle?
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > 
> > jan bodnar
> 
> Are you suggesting that a solo programmer wrote a multi million line C++ 
> program? If not then what has this to do with 'How many lines can one handle?'
> 
> The application I am currently working on has 75,000 lines across some 600 
> files. But I suspect that the line count is higher when you include the various 
> libraries. So I am handling 75,000 lines in some sense, is this what you mean? 
> Or are you talking about the number of lines per file (average 125) or perhaps 
> lines per method?


Heh,

> Are you suggesting that a solo programmer wrote a multi million line C++ 
> program? If not then what has this to do with 'How many lines can one handle?'

No way. This was just another question. One  programmer told me that
he
can roughly handle max 10 000 lines  in C language. I was curious
about Python. I always hear that Python can be used on larger projects
than e.j. PERL because it is Object Oriented and cleanly designed.
What is a larger project? Mumbers revail more.

> The application I am currently working on has 75,000 lines across some 600 
> files. 

This is probably team work. It's helpful for me to know figures. When
you start a project it is useful to know the limitations of a
language. Visual Basic is reported to fail on larger projects.


From jbperez808 at wahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 07:18:30 2004
From: jbperez808 at wahoo.com (Jon Perez)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:18:30 +0800
Subject: Why isn't XUL more popular?
In-Reply-To: <2om4a3Fc4p8rU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <cg1sd0$dgp1@ripley.netscape.com>
	<cg200t$mtp$02$1@news.t-online.com>
	<cg2tn2$sh52@ripley.netscape.com>
	<cg4jht$bh9$03$1@news.t-online.com> <2om4a3Fc4p8rU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <2om4gbFc4p8rU2@uni-berlin.de>

Whoops... stray post from netscape.public.dev.xul...

Jon Perez wrote:

> I find DOM to be unnecessarily verbose.  It looks very much like a
> bloated design-by-a-committee rather than a lean, mean spec designed by a
> few sharp minds.  It takes way too many calls to do something simple
> and the proper calls to use are non-obvious to a beginner.  It is really
> not that hard to imagine having a simpler API for manipulating XML.
> 
> I have been doing extensive DOM work using Javascript for many years
> now and while I'm quite deep into DOM (For example, I have developed a
> technique to dynamically load/modify any part of a webpage from a remote
> data source without reloading the entire page.  A much tougher task than
> you might think owing to Javascript/DOM API deficiencies and hence the need
> for 'voodoo' techniques), I must say I have never grown to love this API.
> 
> Among the many XML-manipulation libraries available for Python are two
> or three DOM implentations.  Despite my long experience with DOM under
> Javascript, I shun the DOM ones and instead use Fredrik Lundh's way more
> pythonic(*) ElementTree... waaaay easier to deal with.  Too bad it or a
> similar API is not available for doing DHTML. :-(
> 
> 
> (*) 'pythonic' is roughly translated as meaning quick to learn (one
> sitting), easy to use (e.g. small, easy-to-remember API) and powerful
> at the same time.



From gk_2345 at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 15 14:47:12 2004
From: gk_2345 at yahoo.com (George Kinney)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 14:47:12 -0400
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <FpSdnWbEe694MoLcRVn-iQ@bright.net>


<beliavsky at aol.com> wrote in message
news:3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760 at posting.google.com...
> I'm not saying that Python's use of indentation is bad, just that it
> stops many programmers from trying it.

I thought it was a bit odd years ago when I first saw it, but then I spent
years writing code in ILE RPG. Which is a language where
actual line position of opcodes/values, etc matters. Which is quite a bit
more extreme than python's indented blocks. (Of course python
has now been ported to OS/400, or i5/OS as its called this month, so I can
use either. :) )

IBM did decide to produce a free-format version of RPG,  which tosses the
learned readability of veterans in the trash in the hopes of attracting some
of these 'required-format-is-scary' programmers to the fold. Like this, and
not the fact that the OS/400 platform is fairly obscure to most programmers,
is the root cause of RPG programmers being hard to find.

Personally, if the first comment out of a new hire's mouth was a gripe about
how to format source code, I show them the door. If, a few months later,
they gripe about the format because it causes a real, measurable problem,
then I'll buy them a beer. :)





From peter_jacobi at gmx.net  Sun Aug  1 12:30:29 2004
From: peter_jacobi at gmx.net (Peter Jacobi)
Date: 1 Aug 2004 09:30:29 -0700
Subject: Codecs for ISO 8859-11 (Thai) and 8859-16 (Romanian)
References: <efabc1be.0407270310.40dbd80@posting.google.com>
	<biteg0dko3sbp7el7etlhtm7djonnf7etq@4ax.com>
	<efabc1be.0407311057.68cdbc29@posting.google.com>
	<410c2827$0$24830$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
Message-ID: <efabc1be.0408010830.2128cf68@posting.google.com>

Hi Martin, All,

"Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:> 
> The process is actually very easy. Anybody willing to contribute them
> would have to upload them to SF (sf.net/projects/python).

Perhaps I have just misunderstood your email. I read it this way (in my own words):

 Taking into account unanswered questions about ISO 8859-11 and TIS620,
 whoever wants to contribute, has to do provider further research, 
 starting with, but not limited to, buying the ISO standard.
 
 The prospective contributor in addition has to provide support for this
 patch and answer all questions about the details involved.

Sorry, this is in the moment out of scope for me. I have a patch, using
information from a source which is reliable enough for my personal
requirements, and now the patch is on USENET available for everyone
who wants to investigate further.

Regards,
Peter Jacobi


From dan at cgl.ucsf.edu  Mon Aug 16 14:09:27 2004
From: dan at cgl.ucsf.edu (Dan Greenblatt)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:09:27 -0700
Subject: passing the url of the current webpage to python script
In-Reply-To: <cfpodq$1nt0$1@news.hgc.com.hk>
References: <cfpodq$1nt0$1@news.hgc.com.hk>
Message-ID: <cfqt42$6cbn$1@cgl.ucsf.edu>

wonder wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> How can I pass the url of the current webpage link to a python script in 
>   html?
> 
> thanks
> sam
are you using a python script as a helper application?


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Fri Aug 13 10:58:08 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 10:58:08 -0400
Subject: Difference between readlines() and iterating on a file object?
In-Reply-To: <411cd102$1@mail.hmgcc.gov.uk>
References: <411cd102$1@mail.hmgcc.gov.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408131048520.28036-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Richard wrote:

> Can anyone tell me what the difference is between
> 
> for line in file.readlines( ):
> 
> and
> 
> for line in file:
> 
> where file is a file object returned from an open( ) call?

The first form slurps every line in the file into a list, and then goes 
through each item in the list in turn.

The second form skips the middleman, and simply goes through each line of 
the file in turn (no interim list is created).  In this context, file is 
acting as a generator.  Because a list isn't created, this form is both 
faster and consumes less memory, overall making it much more efficient 
than .readlines().

> I thought that they did the same thing, but the code I am using it in has
> this line called more than once on the same file object and the second time
> it is ran gives different results for each.

Assuming you don't prematurely exit the for loop or access the file in 
another manner while looping, both forms should give identical results.  
Otherwise...

> What is the difference in implementation?

Because first form slurps everything in at once, repeated calls to it
(with no intervening seek()s) will always return an empty list, whether 
the for loop was stopped prematurely or not.

On the other hand, since the second form only reads one line at a time
(using file.next()), if the for loop is stopped prematurely (e.g. via 
break), subsequent invocations will pick up right where the previous one 
left off.

Hope this helps.



From fischerlaender at gmx.de  Thu Aug 12 10:58:43 2004
From: fischerlaender at gmx.de (Stefan Fischerl?nder)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 07:58:43 -0700
Subject: Developing a Tool Band for IE in Python
Message-ID: <ff9bee6c.0408120658.28a3fdf7@posting.google.com>

After searching Google and Google Groups for several hours I did not
find an answer to my question.

Is Python suitable for developing a tool band (something like the
Google Toolbar) to be placed in the Internet Explorer's rebar? Does
anyone even have any tutorial or something similiar?

Thank you very much.
Stefan


From jeffrey at I.slack  Wed Aug 11 10:29:45 2004
From: jeffrey at I.slack (Jeffrey Froman)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 07:29:45 -0700
Subject: Purely emotional perspective
References: <10hf3oaltbo7o74@corp.supernews.com>
	<AYSdnQ2xPrfFPYrcRVn-iA@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1400.1092070428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<XqSdnTW-4KvRIIrcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-E20935.11190710082004@localhost>
Message-ID: <10hkbaq9c3m8750@corp.supernews.com>

Michael J. Fromberger wrote:

> Assuming?we?take?the?Zen?of
> Python as a set of philosophical design goals for Python, I argue that
> all the proposed uses of decorators so far fail the Zen on the following
> axes:??Beauty,?Simplicity,?Sparseness,?Readability,?Special?Cases,?One
> Obvious Way, and Difficulty of Explanation.

Exactly so. Apparently for the people who design Python, however, this is
not a philosophy but a joke (note that it's in the Humor section at
python.org.)

For me, however, it's not a joke. I choose python because it reflects
choices I make for my life as a whole. To this end, I do still have
recourse without having to abandon python yet:

I will keep the Zen; I will boycott decorators.

If it is true (as it has been asserted in this newsgroup and elsewhere) that
the vast majority of python developers do not like decorators, then
boycotting them will make them go away despite all efforts to introduce
them. Avoid using them. Avoid (or "fix") code that uses them.

Ultimately, what goes into python code is up to those of us who write the
code.

Jeffrey


From jepler at unpythonic.net  Tue Aug 17 21:56:47 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 20:56:47 -0500
Subject: Why is SETUP_FINALLY uninterruptable[sic]?
In-Reply-To: <2JmdnSiV4NZzGL_cRVn-pg@lmi.net>
References: <2JmdnSiV4NZzGL_cRVn-pg@lmi.net>
Message-ID: <20040818015647.GB5422@unpythonic.net>


Well, it's not an answer per se, but this block of code was added at the
same time as PyThreadState_SetAsyncExc, which is a C API to allow
raising an exception from an arbitrary thread.

http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/python/python/dist/src/Python/ceval.c#rev2.366

I suspect that this has something to do with code like

    l = some_lock()
    l.acquire()
                    # MARK
    try:
        something with l held
    finally:
        l.release()
If an asynchronous exception happens betwen l.acquire() and the
SETUP_FINALLY opcode (at "MARK") , there's no guarantee that l.release()
is executed.

This state of affairs always existed with KeyboardInterrupt and/or
signals, and it's hard to see how this fixes the problem if l.acquire()
is Python code, but I think that's what's going on.

The special magic is only applied to SETUP_FINALLY because try: except:
isn't used for this kind of resource management.

This is all guesswork, though.

Jeff
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From lopexx at autograf.pl  Tue Aug 17 08:11:24 2004
From: lopexx at autograf.pl (lopex)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:11:24 +0200
Subject: Best programming language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1787.1092743214.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1718.1092639914.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cfpqlf$7sv$1@news.onet.pl>	<mailman.1723.1092650117.5135.python-list@python.org>	<873c2ndizt.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>	<cfsqfu$co3$1@news.onet.pl>
	<mailman.1787.1092743214.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cfssjc$9ue$1@news.onet.pl>

Andrew Durdin wrote:

> 
> The obvious answer, of course, is that on the newsgroup/mailing list
> for language X, define "best programming language" to be X. It saves a
> lot of combustion :)

agreed

Marcin Mielzynski


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 28 11:44:43 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 17:44:43 +0200
Subject: Question about references/copies
References: <pan.2004.08.28.07.52.35.422774@gmx.de>
	<1gj870c.dzzhcpvby7ozN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<i1u0j09ik1id9uihf3jkdluhdr5jdurik3@4ax.com>
	<1gj8k1n.1vm9nm4y4avw0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<nq51j0l737pmnserb47pe70od8jiq2jsik@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1gj8o7s.1vq95rk32cmygN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
   ...
> >If you know what type obj is, say a list; or, if don't really care
> >whether obj is (say) a list or a tuple or ... 'cause what you want is a
> >list anyway, then the normal way to spell this is of course list(obj).
> 
> Well there is a lot of divergence in practice, as I think you know.

Sure, I did say I've seen [x for x in thelist] used.

> And beyond that no real consensus on what is preferable, as far as I

Hmmm -- I've never seen a debate trying to determine that consensus,
actually.

> have been able to determnine  Though hearing Alex declare it as
> preferable is the beginning of the formation of some consensus, one
> hopes.

You're very kind, but I've hardly ever been able to convince GvR of
anything whatsoever;-)


> >> and/or that the copy module
> >> was something other than one of XXX importable moudles.
> >
> >Well, it's Python-coded, so it seems quite natural to me that it be a
> >perfectly normal importable module.
> 
> I understand, now, the problems with treating the copy module
> otherwise than it is.  But it is a strange duck - conceptually in the
> middle of things, but with limited functional importance. I thought

Yes, I see your point.  Anna and I just co-wrote a Cookbook recipe about
copying, so we ended up debating several such points and she also
brought this one up, btw

> only that Ray's idea of setting it off a bit, by mention in the
> tutorial, had considerable merit. 

Yep, I see that it might.

> I agree that dict(mydict) and list(mylist) -  it that is what one saw
> with consitentcy in practice - would go a long way. I'll try to
> practice it, having gotten into the list[:] habit.  

myseq[:] has the advantage of being polymorphic over list, tuple, str,
and array.array -- list(myseq) would produce a new list no matter what
the type of myseq (it's more polymorphic too, which is generally fine
but may perhaps hide problems if myseq is, say, a dict, unexpectedly
turning it into a sequence of its keys in arbitrary hash order).  I find
that when people are copying a dubious-type sequence they're often happy
with getting a list anyway (so they KNOW they can use list's wide
variety of methods), the only trouble case being indeed list(somedict).

> 
> And ...
> 
> It was my understanding - perhaps wrong - that dict.copy() was an
> add-on method to dict of non-ancient origin.  How do I check?

http://www.python.org/doc/versions.html

pointers to all versions of docs since 1.4 which came out in 1996.

to see that method copy was already in 1.5 (1998):

http://www.python.org/doc/1.5/lib/node13.html#SECTION0031600000000000000
00

I can't see it in 1.4 so I assume it was introduced between '96 and '98.

dict appeared in 2.2 (late 2001), see
http://www.python.org/doc/2.2/lib/built-in-funcs.html


> >> consider this entire area a significant wart. I think I am entitled to
> >> consider it so. 
> >
> >Given the apparent dearth of information in the matter, you may be
> >right.  I'll do my best to keep clarifying my viewpoint in my books...
> 
> That would be excellant!

Anna (my wife and coeditor), hearing from me a summary of this
discussion, decided (and easily convinced me) that copying needs to be
the first recipe in the book, and we have already written and committed
it, so, unless we get a veto from David Ascher, the other coeditor, or
from O'Reilly, that might help.  The recipe as it currently stands shows
copy.copy as the preferred way, with copy.deepcopy and calling the
object's type as secondary ways for particular needs, and L[:] as well
as [x for x in L] being specifically shown as wrong-headed approaches.
(We'll see how that survives tech review etc;-).


Alex


From pje at telecommunity.com  Fri Aug 27 17:39:22 2004
From: pje at telecommunity.com (Phillip J. Eby)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:39:22 -0400
Subject: PEP 333: Python Web Server Gateway Interface v1.0
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20040827173839.02f9dec0@mail.telecommunity.com>

PEP: 333
Title: Python Web Server Gateway Interface v1.0
Version: $Revision: 1.1 $
Last-Modified: $Date: 2004/08/27 17:30:09 $
Author: Phillip J. Eby <pje at telecommunity.com>
Discussions-To: Python Web-SIG <web-sig at python.org>
Status: Draft
Type: Informational
Content-Type: text/x-rst
Created: 07-Dec-2003
Post-History: 07-Dec-2003, 08-Aug-2004, 20-Aug-2004, 27-Aug-2004


Abstract
========

This document specifies a proposed standard interface between web
servers and Python web applications or frameworks, to promote web
application portability across a variety of web servers.


Rationale and Goals
===================

Python currently boasts a wide variety of web application frameworks,
such as Zope, Quixote, Webware, SkunkWeb, PSO, and Twisted Web -- to
name just a few [1]_.  This wide variety of choices can be a problem
for new Python users, because generally speaking, their choice of web
framework will limit their choice of usable web servers, and vice
versa.

By contrast, although Java has just as many web application frameworks
available, Java's "servlet" API makes it possible for applications
written with any Java web application framework to run in any web
server that supports the servlet API.

The availability and widespread use of such an API in web servers for
Python -- whether those servers are written in Python (e.g. Medusa),
embed Python (e.g. mod_python), or invoke Python via a gateway
protocol (e.g. CGI, FastCGI, etc.) -- would separate choice of
framework from choice of web server, freeing users to choose a pairing
that suits them, while freeing framework and server developers to
focus on their preferred area of specialization.

This PEP, therefore, proposes a simple and universal interface between
web servers and web applications or frameworks: the Python Web Server
Gateway Interface (WSGI).

But the mere existence of a WSGI spec does nothing to address the
existing state of servers and frameworks for Python web applications.
Server and framework authors and maintainers must actually implement
WSGI for there to be any effect.

However, since no existing servers or frameworks support WSGI, there
is little immediate reward for an author who implements WSGI support.
Thus, WSGI *must* be easy to implement, so that an author's initial
investment in the interface can be reasonably low.

Thus, simplicity of implementation on *both* the server and framework
sides of the interface is absolutely critical to the utility of the
WSGI interface, and is therefore the principal criterion for any
design decisions.

Note, however, that simplicity of implementation for a framework
author is not the same thing as ease of use for a web application
author.  WSGI presents an absolutely "no frills" interface to the
framework author, because bells and whistles like response objects and
cookie handling would just get in the way of existing frameworks'
handling of these issues.  Again, the goal of WSGI is to facilitate
easy interconnection of existing servers and applications or
frameworks, not to create a new web framework.

Note also that this goal precludes WSGI from requiring anything that
is not already available in deployed versions of Python.  Therefore,
new standard library modules are not proposed or required by this
specification, and nothing in WSGI requires a Python version greater
than 2.2.2.  (It would be a good idea, however, for future versions
of Python to include support for this interface in web servers
provided by the standard library.)

In addition to ease of implementation for existing and future
frameworks and servers, it should also be easy to create request
preprocessors, response postprocessors, and other WSGI-based
"middleware" components that look like an application to their
containing server, while acting as a server for their contained
applications.

If middleware can be both simple and robust, and WSGI is widely
available in servers and frameworks, it allows for the possibility
of an entirely new kind of Python web application framework: one
consisting of loosely-coupled WSGI middleware components.  Indeed,
existing framework authors may even choose to refactor their
frameworks' existing services to be provided in this way, becoming
more like libraries used with WSGI, and less like monolithic
frameworks.  This would then allow application developers to choose
"best-of-breed" components for specific functionality, rather than
having to commit to all the pros and cons of a single framework.

Of course, as of this writing, that day is doubtless quite far off.
In the meantime, it is a sufficient short-term goal for WSGI to
enable the use of any framework with any server.

Finally, it should be mentioned that the current version of WSGI
does not prescribe any particular mechanism for "deploying" an
application for use with a web server or server gateway.  At the
present time, this is necessarily implementation-defined by the
server or gateway.  After a sufficient number of servers and
frameworks have implemented WSGI to provide field experience with
varying deployment requirements, it may make sense to create
another PEP, describing a deployment standard for WSGI servers and
application frameworks.


[Remainder truncated due to python-list posting size limit; please see:

http://python.org/peps/pep-0333.html

for remaining text.]



From pwilkinson at videotron.ca  Fri Aug  6 14:39:35 2004
From: pwilkinson at videotron.ca (Peter Wilkinson)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 14:39:35 -0400
Subject: unicode to ascii converting
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040806141614.01b8fcb0@pop.videotron.ca>
References: <mailman.1296.1091813051.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1091815856.527127@news.commspeed.net>
	<6.0.3.0.0.20040806141614.01b8fcb0@pop.videotron.ca>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040806143011.01b18528@pop.videotron.ca>

I  tried the function, actually this does not seem to work as I expected.

What happens is that the character encoding seems to change in the 
following way: placing what is the equivalent of some return character 
after each character ... or when I view the file in excel there is a blank 
row in between between each row.

Its very strange.

back to the drawing board


At 02:17 PM 8/6/2004, Peter Wilkinson wrote:
>Thanks Tom B.,
>
>I will try that for now ....
>
>It would be good to find out _why_ this happens in the first place. I will 
>keep do a little searching on this for a few days.
>
>
>Peter W.
>
>
>At 02:04 PM 8/6/2004, Tom B. wrote:
>
>>"Peter Wilkinson" <pwilkinson at videotron.ca> wrote in message
>>news:mailman.1296.1091813051.5135.python-list at python.org...
>> > Hello tlistmembers,
>> >
>> > I am using the encoding function to convert unicode to ascii. At one point
>> > this code was working just fine, however, now it has broken.
>> >
>> > I am reading a text file that has is in unicode (I am unsure of which
>> > flavour or bit depth). as I read in the file one line at a time
>> > (readlines()) it converts to ascii. Simple enough. At the same time I am
>> > copressing to bz2 with the bz2 module but that works just fine.  The code
>> > is and error reported appears below. I am unsure what to do.
>> >
>> > I assume that because it is reporting that ordinal is not in range, that
>> > something to do with the character width that I am reading?
>> >
>> > Peter W.
>> >
>> > def encode_file(file_path, encode_type, compress='N'):
>> >      """
>> >      Changes encoding of file
>> >      """
>> >      new_encode = encode_type
>> >      old_file_path = file_path + '.old'
>> >      new_file_path = file_path
>> >      os.rename(file_path,old_file_path)
>> >      file_in  = file(old_file_path,'r')
>> >
>> >      if compress == 'Y' or compress == 'y':
>> >          bz_file_path = file_path + '.bz2'
>> >          bz_file_out  = bz2.BZ2File(bz_file_path, 'w')
>> >          for line in file_in.readlines():
>> >              bz_file_out.write(line.encode(new_encode))
>> >          bz_file_out.close()
>> >
>> >      else:
>> >          file_out = file(file_path,'w')
>> >          for line in file_in.readlines():
>> >              file_out.write(line.encode(new_encode))
>> >          file_out.close()
>> >
>> >      file_in.close()
>> >      os.remove(old_file_path)
>> >
>> > ERROR Reported:
>> >
>> > Parsing
>> >
>>X:\GenomeQuebec_repository\microarray\HIS\M15K\Step_1_repository\HISH0224.tx
>>t
>> > Traceback (most recent call last):
>> >    File "C:\Program Files\ActiveState Komodo 2.5\callkomodo\kdb.py", line
>> > 433, in _do_start
>> >      self.kdb.run(code_ob, locals, locals)
>> >    File "C:\Python23\lib\bdb.py", line 350, in run
>> >      exec cmd in globals, locals
>> >    File "C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\xBio\Scripts\unicodeToAscii.py",
>> > line 158, in ?
>> >      main()
>> >    File "C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\xBio\Scripts\unicodeToAscii.py",
>> > line 75, in main
>> >      encode_file(fileToProcess, options.encode,  'Y')
>> >    File "C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\xBio\Scripts\unicodeToAscii.py",
>> > line 144, in encode_file
>> >      bz_file_out.write(line.encode(new_encode))
>> > UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xff in position 0:
>> > ordinal not in range(128)
>> >
>>I've encountered this problem before and the solution I've come up with a
>>fix that works but is probably not the best,
>>
>>def is_ord (strng):
>>     new_text = ''
>>     for i in strng:
>>         if ord(i) > 127:
>>             new_text = new_text + ''
>>         else:
>>             new_text = new_text + i
>>     return new_text
>>
>>#Then just,
>>
>>text_from_file = is_ord(text_from_file)
>>
>>Tom
>>
>>
>>--
>>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
>--
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



From python-spam at berrs.net  Thu Aug 26 10:34:05 2004
From: python-spam at berrs.net (Per Erik Stendahl)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:34:05 +0200
Subject: Static properties
Message-ID: <412DF4DD.4070302@berrs.net>

Hello everyone,

Is it possible to define "static properties" in a class?

Example:
I have a class, Path, that wraps a lot of os.* and os.path.* functions 
(and others), so I can write things like this:

x = Path('/usr/local/some/file')
if x.IsFile:
     contents = x.Read()
     ...

Now, I would like to wrap os.getcwd(). I can do it like this:

class Path:
     def CurrentDirectory():
         return os.getcwd()
     CurrentDirectory = staticmethod(CurrentDirectory)

pwd = Path.CurrentDirectory()

Question: Can I make CurrentDirectory a property? Just adding
CurrentDirectory = property(CurrentDirectory) after the staticmethod 
line didn't work, unsurprisingly. :-)

Regards,
Per Erik Stendahl


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 19 06:35:18 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 06:35:18 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
In-Reply-To: <Michael.J.Fromberger-F6FD2B.21140718082004@localhost>
References: <mailman.1829.1092785390.5135.python-list@python.org>	<65adnQrUKILiC7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>	<mailman.1834.1092791633.5135.python-list@python.org>	<m2vffgd6pu.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>	<mailman.1858.1092832530.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Michael.J.Fromberger-6AF702.10114718082004@localhost>	<mailman.1891.1092854353.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Michael.J.Fromberger-FF646E.17492318082004@localhost>	<mailman.1909.1092869465.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-F6FD2B.21140718082004@localhost>
Message-ID: <cg1vp4$vgd$1@sea.gmane.org>

Michael J. Fromberger wrote:
> 
> Oh, I see it just fine -- but I still disagree with the idea of 
> including any such implicit magic in the language.  
> 
> In fact, I don't like some of the magic that is already there -- such 
> as, for instance, the automatic mangling of class members whose names 
> begin with a double underscore to get "private" semantics.  But that, at 
> least, is easy to avoid, if one doesn't want to use it.
> 

Unless of course you want a method to be private/semi-private.  How do 
you feel about the way we can create/manipulate lists and dictionaries 
using special (magical) syntax?  Why is that different (acceptable)?

	x = [10, 20, 30]

is shorthand for what would be much more code in other languages. Is 
that syntax ok but

	def __iAmPrivate(): pass

isn't?  Why?





From harry.g.george at boeing.com  Thu Aug 26 10:11:19 2004
From: harry.g.george at boeing.com (Harry George)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:11:19 GMT
Subject: Dennis, Greg, Ian
References: <cgi2qq$rvp$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <cgi3ev$g6k$1@online.de>
	<cgi5vc$m52$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<mailman.2391.1093473637.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgj95i$pl8$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<cgjk1q$1o4$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <1q8002-nal.ln1@suse.zobbo.org>
	<cgknhe$pg3$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <xqxbrgyt2ew.fsf@cola2.ca.boeing.com>

"M. Clift" <noone at here.com> writes:
> Hi to all of you,
> 
> Well that's a lot of 'stuff' you gave me. Thankyou.
> 
> I did understand that the brackets were not part of the list, but leaving
> them that way (as tuples) I could see problems in trying to refer to them at
> some stage. I was having no luck with what I was doing, ending up with just
> being able to call the first item in each tuple. As I'm new to this, maybe I
> don't actually need to do this in the long run for what I want, but for now
> while I think that I do, these answers are exactly what I need.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> M
> 
> 

Did anyone explain list "flattening"?  That may be what you want.

http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/121294



-- 
harry.g.george at boeing.com
6-6M21 BCA CompArch Design Engineering
Phone: (425) 342-0007


From paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it  Sat Aug 21 15:02:02 2004
From: paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it (Paolo Veronelli)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:02:02 +0200
Subject: __metaclass__ and __author__ are already decorators
In-Reply-To: <cg84dk$r8r$6@sea.gmane.org>
References: <cg7mo9$r8r$1@sea.gmane.org> <4127813F.9020707@yahoo.it>
	<cg84dk$r8r$6@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <41279C2A.9060906@yahoo.it>



Paul Morrow wrote:
> Paolo Veronelli wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> Paul Morrow wrote:
>>
>>> Thinking about decorators, and looking at what we are already doing 
>>> in our Python code, it seems that __metaclass__, __author__, 
>>> __version__, etc. are all examples of decorators.  So we already have 
>>> a decorator syntax.  What is the compelling reason to invent a new 
>>> one?  And if we do, what's to become of the old one?

>>
>>     Thanks for pointing out another unpythonicity. Paolino
>>
> 
> Is that what I did?  Isn't assigning values to __xxx__ attributes 
> pythonic?  

Really but instructing the interpreter with assigning to special 
attributes is not a well classified operation:

__author__ & company are just settable/gettable (the don't instruct the 
interpreter)  this is surface  level.

__getitem__ (in ex)  instruct the intepreter on how to parse [] sintax 
(am I wrong?).So __lt__ and the alike :that's what I call a syntactic 
level.This is more or less well defined (and so pythonic):operators can 
be defined like this.

__metaclass__  doesn't seem to be placed in the first two categories.It 
instruct the interpreter on a deeper level (in my vision),an actual 
level which I think is well related with decorator level.If I am 
right,this speciality of an only attribute makes it unpythonic.It has to 
be part of a class
of attributes ,which would be nice to be  populated just (at least) to 
make its instructing position clearer.

I hope I could express something.....

		Regards Paolino





From 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de  Sat Aug 21 02:53:59 2004
From: 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de (510046470588-0001 at t-online.de)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 08:53:59 +0200
Subject: My only complaint about Python
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<CuCdnUCvWK5XSLncRVn-jw@giganews.com>
	<sr3iv1-b5c1.ln1@eskimo.tundraware.com>
Message-ID: <874qmxj81k.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>

Tim Daneliuk <tundra at tundraware.com> writes:

> Istvan Albert wrote:
> > In all fairness this is more the problem with Microsoft than
> > python. If they had a free fully-featured compiler then Python
> > would be compiled with that.
> 
> 
> They do.  MSC/C++ is now available at NO cost:
> 

no cost is not the same as free

Klaus Schilling


From shannon at news.widomaker.com  Tue Aug 31 11:35:59 2004
From: shannon at news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:35:59 -0400
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.SOL.4.58.0408251722510.568@zaphod.rite-group.com>
	<kw1xhujrt1.fsf@merced.netfonds.no>
	<Q3lXc.22457$_H5.654259@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <vs52hc.89m.ln@escape.goid.lan>

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.folklore.computers.]
On 2004-08-26, Markus Wankus <markus_wankusGETRIDOFALLCAPS at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>I think you're getting confused with the Blue ?yster Cult.
>>>Don't Fear the Reaper - great song.
>> 
>> 
>
> It was a great song, but it needed more cowbell...

Well, there is always Witchunt by Rush...


-- 
shannon "AT" widomaker.com -- ["Tara is grass, and behold how Troy lieth
low--And even the English, perchance their hour will come!"]


From natunika at gmx.de  Tue Aug 17 06:15:04 2004
From: natunika at gmx.de (Silke)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 03:15:04 -0700
Subject: serial and threads
Message-ID: <39ba6e78.0408170215.3368be4e@posting.google.com>

Hi all!

I'm trying to write a program in python using the modules
'serialwin32' and 'thread' to create one thread that writes to a
serial port and another one that reads from it at 'the same time'. My
definitions are

def NetworkToSerial(input):
        s.write(binascii.unhexlify(input))        
        print "SENT: %s" % input                  

def SerialToNetwork():
                result = s.read(1)
                print "RECEIVED:"
                print binascii.hexlify(result) 

and I call them with

thread.start_new_thread(NetworkToSerial, (command,))             
thread.start_new_thread(SerialToNetwork, ())

The first one seems to run fine, but for the second one I get the
error message 'ClearCommError', 'the handle is invalid'.

Does anyone have a clue whether maybe serialwin32 is not
thread-compatible?

Thanks for your help in advance!

Silke


From joewong at mango.cc  Mon Aug 23 05:29:35 2004
From: joewong at mango.cc (Joe Wong)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:29:35 +0800
Subject: import module on relative path.
Message-ID: <051201c488f3$b4d624e0$7f00a8c0@scl01.siliconcreation.com>

Hi,

 Can I do something similar to C include statement like include "../module/abc.h" in Python import statement? 

Regards,

- Joe



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From f.geiger at vol.at  Fri Aug  6 06:01:50 2004
From: f.geiger at vol.at (F. GEIGER)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 12:01:50 +0200
Subject: [py2exe.i18n] English works, German works,
	but not French. What do I miss?
References: <cev7g9$3fm$1@newshispeed.ch>
	<Xns953D5E610BA51cpl19ghumspamgourmet@195.20.224.116>
Message-ID: <cevkms$as4$1@newshispeed.ch>


"Harald Massa" <cpl.19.ghum at spamgourmet.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:Xns953D5E610BA51cpl19ghumspamgourmet at 195.20.224.116...
> "F. GEIGER" <f.geiger at vol.at> wrote in news:cev7g9$3fm$1 at newshispeed.ch:
>
> > When I start a py2exe-ed application I get the error
> >
> > 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xe9' in position 10: ordinal
> > not in range(128)
>
>
> encodings: prepare to spend the night.
>
> First reading:
> http://starship.python.net/crew/theller/moin.cgi/EncodingsAgain
>
> Second:
> your error msg says that you are trying to encode sth. NOT ASCII to
> ASCII...
>
> I guess:
> your lokale site has another encoding configured
>
>
> import sys
> sys.getdefaultencoding()
>
> -- returns sth. like Latin-1
>
> And the py2exed application does not read siteconfig.py, and so in the
> running app sys.getdefaultencoding() would be some thing different.
>
> My approach to this is:
>
> in the beginning of the app I write:
>
> import sys
> if hasattr(sys,"setdefaultencoding"):
>     sys.setdefaultencoding("latin-1")
>
> so ... when no site-config was run, I manually set my default encoding to
> latin-1
>
> works great (together with what I described within the wiki)

Phew, that did it - works great. Thanx a lot, Harald!

Cheers
Franz GEIGER

>
> Harald




From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 22:33:14 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:33:14 +1000
Subject: J2 paper 0.2.1
In-Reply-To: <cggc5n$1a2$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E55@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
	<cggc5n$1a2$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408241933117ecc16@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:32:38 -0700, Tim Hochberg <tim.hochberg at ieee.org> wrote:
> Sadly I don't have any better ideas for a keyword. While I'm on the
> topic, let me point out some of the other keywords mentioned in the
> proposal that read poorly. "amend", "extend" and "qualify" all share a
> common flaw that in normal usage the thing being amended/extended/etc
> should follow the word. Thus the natural reading of:


'extend' is a method of list objects, and so can't be used.


From michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk  Tue Aug 24 12:05:57 2004
From: michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk (Michael Sparks)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:05:57 +0100
Subject: python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
References: <mailman.2284.1093361491.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgfpgn$8bn$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>

Robert Brewer wrote:
> Anthony Baxter wrote:
>> Brett Cannon wrote:
...
>> > talking on python-dev, no more syntax proposals.  The community
>> > should set a goal date (Sept. 1 seems good) and just choose a
>> > bloody alternative.  
...
>> Sept 1 is way, way, way too late. 2.4a3 is scheduled for September 2.
>> I'd _hope_ that by the end of this week we can have the proposed
>> alternative(s) presented to Guido - this gives him the weekend 
...
> Given the dearth of heated debate over the proposal, I expect to call
> for signatories within the next 24 hours or so. I know Michael Sparks
> is working on patching against CVS (instead of alpha 2), minor grammar
> improvements, and such--not sure how far along that is or if he feels
> it could wait for revisions after the decision is made...?

The I have a patch working against current CVS, and all the tests bar
one pass. (Specifically test_inspect)

The following examples are now legal:

using:
    author("JoeBloggs")
    Component(inboxes=["inbox","control"],outboxes=["outbox","signal"])
def myGenerator(self, max=10):
    "HypotheticalgeneratordecoratedwithnamedportsforIPC"
    for foo in xrange(0,10):
        self.send("outbox",foo)
        yield 1
    self.send("signal",ProducerFinished())
    yield 0
    
using: staticmethod
def rhubarb(custard):
    print"Jelly",custard
    
Order of evaluation of decorators is the same as for @pies and the
short form (second version) only allows for just one decorator in
that position. Still hunting down what's causing the inspect to not
function as expected fail. (I'm pretty sure of where to look though :)

Regards,


Michael.
-- 
Michael.Sparks at rd.bbc.co.uk    
British Broadcasting Corporation, Research and Development
Kingswood Warren, Surrey KT20 6NP

This message (and any attachments) may contain personal views
which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.




From dave at boost-consulting.com  Tue Aug 24 04:34:10 2004
From: dave at boost-consulting.com (David Abrahams)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 01:34:10 -0700
Subject: Unpythonic Python
Message-ID: <8a638f47.0408240034.653a92ff@posting.google.com>

I started having some weird problems with Python recently; they're so
weird that I can't begin to explain them.  All I can do is describe
the symptoms and hope someone else has a clue.  So here goes:

FreeBSD 4.2, Python 2.2.2. 
 
I have a nightly cron job that downloads the boost cvs tarball from
SourceForge and bunzip2s it.  For about a year everything worked with
no problems. About a month ago the download started getting truncated
with no error reported.  Then bunzip2 reports corruption, of course.

I took the salient part of the download script, and added a reporthook
(undocumented in urllib, BTW) to the urlretrieve call:
--
import urllib
import os

def dump(*args):
    print args

#print 'downloading...'
os.chdir('/tmp')
urllib.urlretrieve('http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cvstarballs/boost-cvsroot.tar.bz2',
                  'boost-cvsroot.tar.bz2', dump)
---

When a recent download was truncated, the last lines of the dump were:

(1014, 8192, 34441987)
(1015, 8192, 34441987)
(1016, 8192, 34441987)
(1017, 8192, 34441987)
(1018, 8192, 34441987)
(1019, 8192, 34441987)
(1020, 8192, 34441987)
(1021, 8192, 34441987)
(1022, 8192, 34441987)
(1023, 8192, 34441987)

is 1023 a coincidence?  Maybe; here's the tail of another failure:

(2439, 8192, 34455413)
(2440, 8192, 34455413)
(2441, 8192, 34455413)
(2442, 8192, 34455413)
(2443, 8192, 34455413)
(2444, 8192, 34455413)
(2445, 8192, 34455413)
(2446, 8192, 34455413)
(2447, 8192, 34455413)
(2448, 8192, 34455413)

So I figured maybe we needed a newer version of Python.  I asked my
sysadmin at stlport.com to upgrade Python to the most recent release,
and all of a sudden my incoming mail started looping (see below).

I am classifying spam with SpamBayes and on my system the only way to
get it sorted into IMAP folders after classification is to send it to
myself.  Only messages lacking an X-Spambayes-Classification get
classified and sent back out, so I guess when Python was upgraded the
classification stopped adding the headers?  My sysadmin rolled Python
back to 2.2.2 and the mail problems stopped.  But I still have the
truncated download problem.

Any clues?
Thanks in advance!

-Dave

--

From: <MAILER-DAEMON at stlport.com>
Subject: Undeliverable mail: RE: What's wrong with this?
To: <agurtovoy at meta-comm.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:08:45 -0700

Failed to deliver to 'dave'
mail loop: too many hops (too many 'Received:' header fields)


Reporting-MTA: dns; stlport.com

Original-Recipient: rfc822;<dave>
Final-Recipient: system;<dave>
Action: failed
Status: 5.0.0
[3. text/rfc822-headers]

Received: by stlport.com (CommuniGate Pro PIPE 4.2)
  with PIPE id 817189; Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:08:45 -0700
Received: by stlport.com (CommuniGate Pro PIPE 4.2)
  with PIPE id 817183; Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:08:26 -0700
<snip>
Received: from [12.163.41.8] (HELO expressmail.office.meta)
  by stlport.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2)
  with SMTP id 817122 for dave at boost-consulting.com; Mon, 23 Aug 2004
17:04:16 -0700
Received-SPF: error
 receiver=stlport.com; client-ip=12.163.41.8;
envelope-from=agurtovoy at meta-comm.com
Received: by expressmail.office.meta with Internet Mail Service
(5.5.2653.19)
	id <RGXKFLXQ>; Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:03:42 -0500
Message-ID: <838645D2D4A9A64ABD56D8C001F07E023533F9 at expressmail.office.meta>
From: Aleksey Gurtovoy <agurtovoy at meta-comm.com>
To: 'David Abrahams' <dave at boost-consulting.com>
Subject: RE: What's wrong with this?
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:03:42 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19)
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"


From gj_carman at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 28 17:03:13 2004
From: gj_carman at hotmail.com (Snake)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 14:03:13 -0700
Subject: IDLE does not start on WinXP
Message-ID: <2bc4a8b9.0408281303.4561e6eb@posting.google.com>

I recently installed Python 2.3.4 on WinXP.  The command line
interpreter works fine, but the IDLE GUI will not start.  I have both
WinXP and McAfee firewalls disabled.  When I run IDLE from a
commandline I get the following traceback.  Any suggestions would be
appreciated.

C:\Python23\Lib\idlelib>idle.py
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "C:\Python23\Lib\idlelib\idle.py", line 23, in ?
    idlelib.PyShell.main()
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\PyShell.py", line 1282, in main
    flist.pyshell = PyShell(flist)
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\PyShell.py", line 764, in __init__
    self.interp.start_subprocess()
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\PyShell.py", line 364, in
start_subprocess
    self.transfer_path()
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\PyShell.py", line 433, in
transfer_path
    self.runcommand("""if 1:
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\PyShell.py", line 650, in runcommand
    self.rpcclt.remotequeue("exec", "runcode", (code,), {})
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\rpc.py", line 214, in remotequeue
    return self.asyncreturn(seq)
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\rpc.py", line 238, in asyncreturn
    response = self.getresponse(seq, wait=0.05)
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\rpc.py", line 278, in getresponse
    response = self._getresponse(myseq, wait)
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\rpc.py", line 298, in _getresponse
    response = self.pollresponse(myseq, wait)
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\rpc.py", line 423, in pollresponse
    message = self.pollmessage(wait)
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\rpc.py", line 375, in pollmessage
    packet = self.pollpacket(wait)
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\rpc.py", line 347, in pollpacket
    if not self.ioready(wait):
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\rpc.py", line 337, in ioready
    r, w, x = select.select([self.sock.fileno()], [], [], wait)
  select.error: (10022, 'An invalid argument was supplied')


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Thu Aug  5 11:46:05 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 11:46:05 -0400
Subject: Decorator syntax (was Re: PEP 318 - PyFIT comments)
References: <mailman.1162.1091660561.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnch2rs1.6ei.ressler@cheetah.jpl.nasa.gov>
	<1646998998.20040804190026@MailBlocks.com>
	<mailman.1168.1091667628.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<10h34ivio5s2c21@news.supernews.com>
	<m3pt65g4hb.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
	<10h4c5iicgv7k74@news.supernews.com>
	<jaWdnWcZkabb2Y_cRVn-vQ@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <10h4lhutcuu6t41@news.supernews.com>


"A.M. Kuchling" <amk at amk.ca> wrote in message
news:jaWdnWcZkabb2Y_cRVn-vQ at speakeasy.net...
> On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:06:01 -0400,
> John Roth <newsgroups at jhrothjr.com> wrote:
> > That was basically my comment about ctypes. AMK's
> > blog entry referenced the ctype's documentation page,
>
> Heller's post (at
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045139.html) wasn't
> very informative, either; I assume ctypes needs to do 'func =
> something_or_other(func)' as PyObjC does currently.

I see; that's not very informative.

What ctypes does is create a specialized object to
represent a particular c function, variable, array or
struct; then you use those objects as part of the
interface when you call the c function you're going
after.

Possibly he's got something in mind to streamline
the construction of the supporting objects for
a given C API call.

It does, however, seem like something that would
be appropriate for function decorators.

John Roth
>
> --amk




From dan at hld.ca  Tue Aug 17 22:29:04 2004
From: dan at hld.ca (Dan Cardamore)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 19:29:04 -0700
Subject: Python and Weather.com
References: <6491b0ab.0408121917.5103b770@posting.google.com>
	<411cc8e5$1_2@omega.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <2e8670bb.0408171829.1936046f@posting.google.com>

mfuhr at fuhr.org (Michael Fuhr) wrote in message news:<411cc8e5$1_2 at omega.dimensional.com>...
> faizans at gmail.com (Fazer) writes:
> 
> > I made a small python script that gives the current weather conditions
> > of a city that you give as an argument.
> 
> You could also use pymetar.
> 
> http://www.schwarzvogel.de/software-pymetar.shtml

I wrote CurseTheWeather which has both an ncurses front end, and a
python module that can give you access to the forecast data.  The
source is the same (xoap.weather.com).

Check it out at (with screenshots for the ncurses gui):
http://opensource.hld.ca/trac.cgi/wiki/CurseTheWeather

If anyone is interested in writing wx/tk/gtk/windows/cocoa/other/guis
then please let me know.  The wx gui has been started.

Dan


From bart_nessux at hotmail.com  Wed Aug  4 10:13:56 2004
From: bart_nessux at hotmail.com (Bart Nessux)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 10:13:56 -0400
Subject: Perl's Crypt::PasswdMD5
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1125.1091627821.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <ceqoul$ept$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
	<mailman.1125.1091627821.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ceqqv4$hm6$2@solaris.cc.vt.edu>

Ajay wrote:
> hi!
> 
> the pycrypto package at http://www.amk.ca/python/code/crypto.html
> has MD5 and a few other digests and other cryptography tools
> 
> cheers
> 
> --
> Ajay Brar,
> CS Honours 2004
> Smart Internet Technology Research Group
> 
> 
> Quoting Bart Nessux <bart_nessux at hotmail.com>:
> 
> 
>>Does Python have anything similar to Perl's Crypt::PasswdMD5???
>>
>>I read about the crypt module... but it only does DES. Any plans to add
>>md5 or other digests to it in the future?
>>

Thanks, I'll give it a try.


From jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl  Sat Aug  7 15:37:08 2004
From: jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl (Jarek Zgoda)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 21:37:08 +0200
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
In-Reply-To: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu>
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu>
Message-ID: <cf3b56$gt6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>

Mikl?s wrote:

> Ok, seems like we have @decorators. It's a nice tribute to Intercal.  But
> I'd prefer #decorators.
> 
> We have metaclasses for pleasure brain-melting. We have generators,
> new-style classes and old-style classes. Lambdas are wonderful.
> We do need real interfaces, not abused classes.  Python still needs to have
> inlined functions, macros and templates. Operator overloading is not enough,
> one should be able to introduce new ones freely. There's a heavy demand for
> terciary comparisons. Why don't we have a 'case' statement and 'do... repeat
> ()'?
> We cannot do without general closures, of course.  Hm, automatic garbage
> collection is sometimes fine but explicite memory allocation/deallocation is
> really unavoidable for efficient programs.
> Wait, pointers are a must! Static typing should have been introduced a long
> time ago. You just cannot do without absolute address variables.
> 
> Yes, I'm thorougly annoyed with creeping featurism.

Man, you steal my thoughts!

Most of features that made into Python after 2.1 are "just that", like 
"nobody has it, so we should" or "somebody has it, so we would too". The 
only thing I welcomed in 2.3 was some interpreter speedup, not new features.

Is it really so much needed feature, that "clean, compact and readable" 
rule should be broken? Damn, to hell with decorators, noone I know even 
knows what it can be good for.

Come on, guys, fix real problems like interpreter thread safety, improve 
performance, don't make us, "real-world software developers", screaming 
with every new release, please.

-- 
Jarek Zgoda
http://jpa.berlios.de/


From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Sat Aug 21 20:56:30 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 20:56:30 -0400
Subject: __metaclass__ and __author__ are already decorators
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2131.1093135604.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2107.1093099087.5135.python-list@python.org>	<2opgsoFd7807U1@uni-berlin.de>	<mailman.2116.1093113995.5135.python-list@python.org>	<2opp6gFdg3e7U1@uni-berlin.de>	<mailman.2121.1093122249.5135.python-list@python.org>	<2oq4keFd90euU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<mailman.2131.1093135604.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2oq93oFdnrmoU1@uni-berlin.de>

Paul Morrow wrote:
> So when we define an __xxx__ attribute inside of a function, we are 
> trying to make a statement about the function --- we are not trying to 
> create a local variable.  Therefore the Python system shouldn't create a 
> local variable in this case; it should create a function variable 
> instead (IMO).

How do you think a newbie will react to magic behavior like that from 
the assignment operator based entirely on the name being assigned to?


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Fri Aug 13 16:27:30 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:27:30 -0400
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfj87i$59d$1@sea.gmane.org>


<beliavsky at aol.com> wrote in message
news:3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760 at posting.google.com...
> One of the most commmon reasons programmers cite for not trying Python

I suspect that the main barrier is hearing or reading enough about Python
to serious think about trying it.

> is that indentation determines the program flow -- they think its weird.

Giving that structured text (in English at least) routinely uses
significant indentation (lists, outlines, block quotes) and that much
algorithm pseudocode does the same (which was half the reason I called
Python 'executable pseudocode'), I find it puzzling that so many find it
'weird' (if indeed that is true).

> I wonder if there is a way to remove this initial barrier.

Perhaps better explanation in the introductory materials might help.  Do
you have any suggestions?

> Could an alternate source form be defined,

'Could' ? of course.  And you are free to do so, and to write a
preprocessor that converts the alternate form to standard Python, and even
to distribute an intepreter that has it builtin, and even to promote
FencePy as a 'Python variant for beginners' or as 'Transitional Python for
the fence-bound'.

> so that there are matching if-endif
> and for-next constructs instead of significant indentation?

If a block is too long to easily match indentation levels, I myself might
add an unofficial '#end if xyz' (properly dedented) to help readers
(including possibly myself in the future) visually and mentally close the
block.  The downside though is to make editing possibly slightly harder.

> The alternate source form and the current form would result in exactly
the
> same .pyc file.

What if the fences and indentation disagreed?

> I'm not saying that Python's use of indentation is bad,

I say that Python's use of indentation is good.

> just that it stops many programmers from trying it.

Perhaps.  But it encourages others to try and adopt it and it is a key part
of making Python code unusually readable, which was and is one of its main
design goals.

Terry J. Reedy





From porky_pig_jr at my-deja.com  Sat Aug 14 18:04:57 2004
From: porky_pig_jr at my-deja.com (Porky Pig Jr)
Date: 14 Aug 2004 15:04:57 -0700
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
References: <9ADC3170-EDAF-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>
	<mailman.1652.1092490554.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <56cfb0e3.0408141404.1d0057b8@posting.google.com>

Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote in message > class Foo:
>     def blah(a, b):         # this is clearly a static method
>        pass
> 
>     def blah(self, a, b):   # this is clearly an instance method
>        pass
> 
>     def blah(klass, a, b):  # this is clearly a class method
>        pass
> 
> Python was built (successfully) on the assumption that obvious 
> interpretations of the code obviate the need for declarations.  Why 
> wouldn't we continue with that mindset?
> 
> Paul

I don't think it's a good example. 'self' is a convention, not the
reserved word. Nothing can prevent anyone from using some other word.
Strictly speaking, the fact that the first parameter is called 'self'
does not imply anything. Ditto for 'klass' (or rather 'cls' which is
used by the number of references). Again, it's not a reserved word.
What if I've decided to use parameter name 'cls' in static function? 
What if I've decided to use 'this' instead of 'self'? So - either we
need some mechanism to enforce the keywords 'self', 'cls', or -- we
back to square one: we need decorators.


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 21 20:46:37 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 20:46:37 -0400
Subject: __metaclass__ and __author__ are already decorators
In-Reply-To: <2oq4keFd90euU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <mailman.2107.1093099087.5135.python-list@python.org>	<2opgsoFd7807U1@uni-berlin.de>	<mailman.2116.1093113995.5135.python-list@python.org>	<2opp6gFdg3e7U1@uni-berlin.de>	<mailman.2121.1093122249.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2oq4keFd90euU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <cg8qdf$r8r$19@sea.gmane.org>

Leif K-Brooks wrote:
> Paul Morrow wrote:
> 
>> And I don't agree that this would be assigning new 'meaning' to an old 
>> syntax.  When a programmer creates a __xxx__ class attribute, he is 
>> not trying to create a normal 'class' attribute --- one the is 
>> inherited by instances of the class or that holds part of the 'state' 
>> of the class. Instead, he is trying to make a meta statement about the 
>> class (who wrote it, what happens during instance initialization, 
>> etc.).  In that sense, the meaning associated with defining __xxx__ 
>> attributes would stay the same.
> 
> 
> If we were talking about something like this:
> 
> def foo(self):
>     pass
> foo.__author__ = "Leif K-Brooks"
> 
> then you would be correct. But when syntax normally used for assigning 
> to a variable magically assigns to an attribute if the variable name 
> starts and ends with "__", then it's an existing syntax (variable 
> assignment) being used for something new (attribute assignment). Why 
> should this:
> 
> def foo(self):
>     bar = 42
> 
> mean anything different from this?
> 
> def foo(self):
>     __bar__ = 42

Because the intent of the two assignments is quite different.  Yes, 
their syntactic structure is similar, and what happens after they 
execute is similar, but the 'kind' of information the programmer is 
trying to represent is very different in the two cases.

In the first example, the programmer intends for bar to be a local 
variable, used in some way by foo.  In the second example, the 
programmer most definitely does *not* intend for __bar__ to be used by 
foo --- instead he is simply providing information *about* foo.  This 
better illustrates the difference.

     def circumference(diameter):
         __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'
         __version__ = '0.1'
         pi = 3.14
         return pi * diameter

So when we define an __xxx__ attribute inside of a function, we are 
trying to make a statement about the function --- we are not trying to 
create a local variable.  Therefore the Python system shouldn't create a 
local variable in this case; it should create a function variable 
instead (IMO).





From nzanella at cs.mun.ca  Thu Aug 19 19:38:14 2004
From: nzanella at cs.mun.ca (Neil Zanella)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 16:38:14 -0700
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
References: <20040817181725194-0400@braeburn.themorgue.org>
	<du7oel8l5ba.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>
Message-ID: <b68d2f19.0408191538.5c32b06b@posting.google.com>

Ville Vainio <ville at spammers.com> wrote in message news:<du7oel8l5ba.fsf at lehtori.cc.tut.fi>...
> >>>>> "Kevin" == Kevin Smith <Kevin.Smith at sas.com> writes:
> 
>     Kevin> Bear with me, but I'd like to propose one more syntax that
>     Kevin> is simple, easy for newbies to understand, and nowhere near
>     Kevin> as powerful as the current PEP's syntax.  However, it
>     Kevin> doesn't add incoherent, arbitrary syntax either.
> 
>     Kevin> def classmethod foo(x, y, z):
>     Kevin>    pass

> I don't even use static/classmethods, but I can imagine several
> frameworks can use parametrized decorators to their advantage.

Well, allow me to contribute my thoughts on staticmethod and classmethod:
I am barely starting out with Python and my class objects are already
loaded with so many

foo = staticmethod(foo)

statements. In other words these are very useful: they should be part of
Python's syntax. Other than the above proposal, which I think is the most
obvious thing that could be done, I would also like to contribute yet another
syntax:

class Foo:
  # stuff
  classmethods:
    # classmethods here
  staticmethods:
    # staticmethods here

In the spirit of Python, this scheme would lead to even less typing
on average than would be required with Kevin's solution, although I
must admit that Kevin's solution was the very first thing that came
to mind when I was looking for classmethods/staticmethods.

staticmethods are very useful: you can pack related methods in a class
and use them as getters for class objects which need not be differentiated
among instances. It may even be, that due to python's class objects feature
the user never cares to instantiate certain types of classes anyways. For
instance, a class object with staticmethods can simply be used as a
singleton object: very convenient, if it were not for this ugly
staticmethod syntax. And you may ask, what are the advantages
of using staticmethod inside a class as opposed to using
plain methods? The answer to that question is polymorphism:
Imagine a hierarchy of singleton classes derived from a base
class with a common interface. The singleton class objects
can then be processed polymorphically. Class objects, unlike
class instances, are singletons by nature: what a convenient
means of using singletons pythons offers us!

class Person:
  def name():
    return "Sorry, I'm just an abstract class."
  name = staticmethod(name)
  def favoMovie():
    return "Monty Python's Flying Circus"
  favMovie = staticmethod(FavMovie)
  def favFood():
    return "SPAM!"
  favFood = staticmethod(favFood)

class JoeDoe(Person):
  def name():
    return "Joe Doe"
  name = staticmethod(name)

class JaneDoe(Person):
  def name():
    return "Jane Doe"
  name = staticmethod(name)
  def favFood():
    return "Eggs"
  favFood = staticmethod(FavFood)

The other alternative is to attach methods to instances of a common class
after they are created, which is also something that can be done in Python
but not in most other languages.

Note that the getters I have coded, in general may involve more complex
logic than shown here, so that we really do need methods and not palin
variables in such cases.

Overall, allow me to say that OO stuff seems to be much more flexible in an
interpreted environment such as Python than it is in compiled languages.

Feedback welcome,

Regards,

Neil


From http  Sat Aug 21 23:59:35 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 20:59:35 -0700
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
Message-ID: <7x4qmv6cwo.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) writes:
> >It seems there are quite a few projects aimed to improve Python's
> >speed and, therefore, eliminate its main limitation for mainstream
> >acceptance.
> 
> What makes you think speed is Python's primary limitation for mainstream
> acceptance?

Well, whenever I want to write a mainstream application and think of
using Python, my first reaction is that Python is too slow...


From pleaseSeeFooter at bottomOfEmail.com  Sun Aug  1 05:18:04 2004
From: pleaseSeeFooter at bottomOfEmail.com (Eric Pederson)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 01:18:04 -0800
Subject: flowcharting is automatic for Python via preprocessor
Message-ID: <20040801011804.1002621623.pleaseSeeFooter@bottomOfEmail.com>

"Rick Hilburger" <rickh at ispwest.com> wrote:

> I have a program that
> automatically draws a flow chart next to Python code so that you can see and
> understand the flow among the lines of Python code.  I use a slightly
> different syntax for flow control than Python does, but the rest is regular
> Python.  I have numerous images to illustrate this.  I think it would be a
> new way to have code that is somewhat self-documenting.  It could also help
> Python be somewhat self-teaching, at least with respect to structured
> control constructs and how they work.


Neat idea!

Perhaps this would be useful as a teaching tool for first year programming courses, helping students to visualize what the various statements do.  Such things seem trivial once they are ingrained in one's thinking, but getting that initial comprehension may be more challenging than one remembers, and the flowchart just might help out.


It does seem to add some visual complexity, however, which might not be an advantage for more experienced programmers...




Eric Pederson
http://www.songzilla.blogspot.com
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
domainNot="@something.com"
domainIs=domainNot.replace("s","z")
ePrefix="".join([chr(ord(x)+1) for x in "do"])
mailMeAt=ePrefix+domainIs
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


From jjl at pobox.com  Tue Aug 10 16:50:54 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 21:50:54 +0100
Subject: Exceptions as a Control Structure
References: <411775aa$0$17867$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<dOadnX1nRauy5YrcRVn-gw@powergate.ca>
	<41177b65$0$17857$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <87smauu381.fsf@pobox.com>

[Peter Hansen]
> Exceptions are also used by some as a mechanism for
> returning information from subroutines, though it's
> very likely the information will still be considered
> "exceptional" in some way (think of it as an out-of-band
> mechanism for returning special info).

[Olivier Parisy]
> Do you have some example of this in the standard library ?

Not sure if this is what Peter had in mind, but grep for 'ValueError'.


[Peter]
> While some people object on stylistic grounds (or even
> performance ones, in some cases) to such things, you
> will likely find that exceptions are thrown around
> by Python programmers more readily than you are used to.

[Olivier Parisy]
> That's what I wanted to know. OK.

Control-structure-y uses (esp. within a single function) are much
rarer than the ordinary use: a function signalling an exceptional
condition to its callers.  This ordinary use is certainly used more
extensively in idiomatic Python code than is the case in many other
languagesa.

StopIteration is used a lot, I guess, but it's rare that you're
actually concious of that fact.


John


From max at alcyone.com  Fri Aug 13 19:35:34 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:35:34 -0700
Subject: !wtf ellipsis
References: <pan.2004.08.13.12.54.24.553466@yahoo.com>
	<voiqh0p0ce6ui77498vqdabcrl7asro33i@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <411D5046.B5D16F02@alcyone.com>

Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou wrote:

> Peter provided a link answering your questions.  As a side note, I
> have
> used Ellipsis instead of None as a very handy last item put in queues
> in
> threaded programs (after all, "ellipsis" means "absence" or "lack" in
> English :)  Thus I avoid creating dummy classes to mark the end of
> data...

But as a sentinel, why would it be superior to None?

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ If you don't take chances, you can't do anything in life.
    -- Michael Spinks


From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Fri Aug  6 17:22:46 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 14:22:46 -0700
Subject: Queue qsize = unreliable?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1285.1091808631.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1285.1091808631.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10h7tk82g3iiqe4@corp.supernews.com>

Ames Andreas (MPA/DF) wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Tim Peters wrote:
>
>  
>
>>There's no use case I know of where knowing "the exact current size"
>>is necessary, except inside the implementation of Queue (where it
>>can know it, but at the expense of locking out all other threads for
>>as long as it takes to compute the result).
>>    
>>
>
>I've got one:  If you have the special situation that there is only a
>single consumer with potentially multiple suppliers (or similarly if
>you have it the other way around), you could implement the consumer in
>a non-blocking manner.  Then it's not that important to get "the exact
>current size" which would still be unreliable but it is important to
>have a reliable empty method (or rather !empty() and full() are
>reliable in this situation).  I think Queue is reliable in this
>respect but to get it additionally non-blocking you will have to roll
>your own queue.
>  
>

No you don't.  You simply execute a non-blocking get(),  and be prepared 
to catch the Queue.Empty exception.  Similarly, if you want a 
non-blocking producer, then you execute a non-blocking put() and catch 
the Queue.Full exception.  That's really the only reliable way to tell 
whether the queue is empty or full, anyhow...

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From jack at performancedrivers.com  Wed Aug 18 17:21:24 2004
From: jack at performancedrivers.com (Jack Diederich)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:21:24 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <20040818211120.GA6522@unununium.org>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<cfvi4r$bn7$1@news.tue.nl> <2ohpksF94tajU3@uni-berlin.de>
	<20040818211120.GA6522@unununium.org>
Message-ID: <20040818212124.GA23725@performancedrivers.com>

On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 05:11:20PM -0400, Phil Frost wrote:
> I wonder what portion of
> programmers these days have a real understanding of how the hardware
> they manipulate works? From this thread so far it seems like such
> knowledge is more common among Python programmers, which I find odd
> since Python isn't exactly a low level language. Perhaps it's because no
> one learns Python until becoming frustrated with 10 other languages?

Or because the average age so far is well over 30; back then assembly was
de rigueur and not much before that and you are physically flipping bits
with a +12v probe (if you were lucky there was eight lights above the
eight metal contacts).

Until recently "computer science" was spelled "electrical engineering" and
arguably before that "mechanical engineering".

-Jack


From npat at efault.net  Mon Aug 16 15:19:44 2004
From: npat at efault.net (Nick Patavalis)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:19:44 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
References: <mailman.1686.1092582164.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnci226f.h3l.npat@gray.efault.net>

On 2004-08-15, Michael Sparks <zathras at thwackety.com> wrote:
>
>> For me it would be *tremendously* usefull if one could yield across
>> multiple levels of function calls. If this was supported, then most
>> uses of O/S treads could be replaced by generators.
>

I didn't knew about Stackless or Greenlets. I will take a look at
this, thanks!

>
> Indeed using the new decorator syntax you could probably simplify this to:
>
> def foobar(i): Yield(i)
>
> @generator
> def g(n):
>     for i in range(n):
>         foobar(i)
>

Another excellent use for decorators!

/npat


From vinay_sajip at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Aug  5 10:38:55 2004
From: vinay_sajip at yahoo.co.uk (Vinay Sajip)
Date: 5 Aug 2004 07:38:55 -0700
Subject: logging / FileHandler
References: <c5694ea3.0408041245.4ada2085@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <2e37dc1.0408050638.235af731@posting.google.com>

> with the logging module, I am using the FileHandler formatter.
> Is there a setting to stop the logger from putting the same message
> more than once?  So it would say:
> 
> Message whatever
> Repeated X times
> 
If you really wanted this functionality, you could write your own
handler derived from FileHandler.

I assume you are not getting multiple messages because you added the
same FileHandler multiple times?

Vinay Sajip


From Sibylle.Koczian at Bibliothek.Uni-Augsburg.de  Thu Aug  5 08:09:23 2004
From: Sibylle.Koczian at Bibliothek.Uni-Augsburg.de (Sibylle Koczian)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 14:09:23 +0200
Subject: MySQLdb select
In-Reply-To: <gmv1h0tbk1iujk2nssjtrankri3tqveh6c@4ax.com>
References: <lGIOc.4961$AY5.4762@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>	<ceg5ca$ftn$1@newshispeed.ch>	<9RPOc.2792$LI7.1058@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>	<21064255.0408020908.41357e52@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1064.1091481067.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2n9gmuFuhk8kU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<ggbvg05qaa0n04675jof14l8oo1c908pkl@4ax.com>
	<2nbn3pFv4865U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<gmv1h0tbk1iujk2nssjtrankri3tqveh6c@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <2nembjF2dr7U1@uni-berlin.de>

Dennis Lee Bieber schrieb:
> 
> 	Except that the conversion function, .literal(),  /does/  accept
> a single item, a sequence (tuple OR list), or a mapping (dictionary).
> The arguments are just passed through .execute(), which doesn't really
> care one way or the other.
> 
> 	Tediously, .execute() calls ._execute(), which has:
> ...
>         try:
>             if args is None:
>                 r = self._query(query)
>             else:
>                 r = self._query(query % self.connection.literal(args))
>         except TypeError, m:
> ...
> 
> 	Since .literal() accepts single objects (well, in truth, I'd
> guess one would have to say that it is .escape() that processes the
> arguments -- I can't say what that does, as it is likely in the binary
> module. However, the actual forming of the final query string /is/ the
> standard Python "string" % arg operator, which, in my experience, has
> never complained about not being given a 1-tuple.
>  
True. I had hopes that this might explain another riddle I couldn't 
solve: datefield is a database column of type date, and I execute two 
queries:

a) SELECT * FROM mytable WHERE datefield = %s

b) SELECT * FROM mytable WHERE datefield IN (%s, %s)

case a): the parameter for %s can be a mx.DateTime object, a 
datetime.date object or the sort of DateTime object MySQLdb returns from 
another query; or it can be a string with format 'YYYY-MM-DD'. The 
results of the query are correct in every case.

case b): the parameters must be strings of the form 'YYYY-MM-DD'. With 
all other sorts of parameters (DateTime objects, strings in other date 
formats) the query doesn't find anything.

I tried this with different versions of MySQL, MySQLdb and Python, under 
Windows and Linux, always with the same results.

Now I've looked at conn.literal(args) for a pair of DateTime objects and 
for a single one:

 >>> arg
<DateTime object for '2004-06-18 00:00:00.00' at 1199da0>
 >>> arglist
[<DateTime object for '2004-07-29 00:00:00.00' at 117af20>, <DateTime 
object for '2004-07-07 00:00:00.00' at 1199de0>]
 >>> conn.literal(arglist)
("'2004-07-29 00:00:00'", "'2004-07-07 00:00:00'")
 >>> conn.literal(arg)
"'2004-06-18 00:00:00'"
 >>> s1 = 'SELECT * FROM fehllief WHERE fehltag IN (%s, %s)'
 >>> s1 % conn.literal(arglist)
"SELECT * FROM fehllief WHERE fehltag IN ('2004-07-29 00:00:00', 
'2004-07-07 00:00:00')"
 >>> s2 = 'SELECT * FROM fehllief WHERE fehltag = %s'
 >>> s2 % conn.literal(arg)
"SELECT * FROM fehllief WHERE fehltag = '2004-06-18 00:00:00'"
 >>> curs.execute(s1, arglist)
0L
 >>> curs.execute(s2, arg)
1L

Why doesn't the query using IN find anything while the query using = 
does? The records are there, of course.

Koczian


From stephen at SPAM.theboulets.IS.BAD.net  Sun Aug 29 10:45:02 2004
From: stephen at SPAM.theboulets.IS.BAD.net (Stephen Boulet)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:45:02 -0500
Subject: Get all subdirs
In-Reply-To: <cgsk49$82c$00$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <cgsk49$82c$00$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <qO6dnRLTKONydqzcRVn-iw@speakeasy.net>

Florian Lindner wrote:
> Hello,
> how can I get all subdirectories of a given directory. os.listdir(dir)
> doesn't differentiate between directories and files, os.walk seems to me a
> bit overkill since it also descends in the subdirs.
> Thx,
> Florian

I'm a fan of the path module:

from path import path

p = path("my_directory")
l = [i.name for i in p.dirs()]

Stephen


From __peter__ at web.de  Sat Aug 14 06:22:03 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 12:22:03 +0200
Subject: Seperating CSV rows into new, seperate files
References: <d28d42ec.0408131940.3b95e9bd@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfkp4b$pg5$00$1@news.t-online.com>

TonyB wrote:

> I've searched the group and need more information and guidance on this
> issue I need to resolve next week. I work for the local school system
> and I am working on a way to parse a CSV file of class lists from MS
> Excel.  It is a ~2MB file with all teachers and all their classes in
> it.  I thought I would use Python to do this since many people I know
> tell me how great it is.  The real sticking point is there are
> duplicates of each teacher's classes embedded in the file (don't ask
> why).  I want to break up the source file into the seperate class
> files without duplication and use the teachers name, coursecode and
> section in the filename.
> 
> Example Data:
> Last Name     First Name      Grade   Period  Teacher Name
> SMITH           JOHN           8      1       JONES   SALLY
> 
> Student ID            Course Code     Course Title
> 12345678              1234             ALGEBRA I
> 
> Course Section        Session
> 1             0
> 
> 
> The course code and section number are the same in the duplicate
> classes.  The difference is that the session number changes.   I'm
> thinking that I will need to somehow iterate through the lines and
> break the class when the course code changes and/or section change
> (course codes can be the same but section numbers change with each
> class).  Then I have to monitor the session number to see if there is
> a duplicate course code and section but a different session number
> would indicate that the class is a duplicate. Essentially, the session
> number will be 0, 1, or 2 for a total of three lists of the same
> class. Hopefully that makes sense.  Again don't ask why the data is
> like this.
> 
> My humble attempts have not been very successful.  I've been trying
> the csv modules to read the file but I am not sure how to procede
> after that.
> 
> Any guidance is greatly appreciated.

>From the above I think you can use the (student id, course code, course
section) tuple as the unique key when reading the data via the cvs module
into a dictionary instead of a list. (For larger data you would need a
database - the humble MS Access could have saved you from the trouble with
duplicates in the first place, btw.)

#untested
STUDENT_ID = 5
COURSE_CODE = 6
COURSE_SECTION = 8
data = {}
for row in csv.reader(instream):
    # you could do more processing here,
    # e. g. with nested course/student
    # dictionaries, but let's keep it simple
    data[row[STUDENT_ID], row[COURSE_CODE], row[COURSE_SECTION]] = row

Subsequent sessions will then just overwrite data already in the dictionary.
Note that you are throwing away some information as I am pretty sure (don't
ask why :-) that the duplicates will not be completely identical.

You can split this raw data into classes like so:

#untested
klasses = {}
for row in data.values():
    key = row[COURSE_CODE], row[COURSE_SECTION]
    if key in klasses:
        klasses[key].append(row)
    else:
        klasses[key] = [row]

If you feel comfortable with (Python) classes you can make the dictionary
values instances of a Row class that lets you access attributes by name, e.
g. row.studentID instead of row[STUDENT_ID]. 

If these hints aren't sufficient to get you started it would help if you
showed the code you already have to avoid duplicate effort.

Peter

PS: Who am I to talk about orthography, but it's "separate".




From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 00:17:54 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 14:17:54 +1000
Subject: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was Decorator syntax)
In-Reply-To: <L0DQc.10331$cK.3791@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>
References: <6LWdnZCpvI7Ico_cRVn-hw@giganews.com>
	<L0DQc.10331$cK.3791@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408052117368b9219@mail.gmail.com>

The solution, if you don't like the syntax, is not voting. It's to propose an
argument that Guido will accept, in favour of your preferred option.


From della at toglimi.linux.it  Tue Aug 17 14:52:37 2004
From: della at toglimi.linux.it (Matteo Dell'Amico)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 18:52:37 GMT
Subject: read input file a line as a list in python
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1816.1092768036.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1816.1092768036.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <VtsUc.45951$OH4.1448039@twister1.libero.it>

Yong Wang wrote:
> Hi, All:
>     I need to read a input file as soucre to process data. Ideally
> if I can read a line from input file as a list (coloumn separate by
> white space), reorganize field in a line. Does python has this kind of 
> command ? 
>    for example, I read a line has:
>    "IP  MAC Date..." as a line from input file, How  can I only get MAC ?
>     Thanks,
> 
>     Yong

If I understood you correctly, this should do something like what you want:

for line in file("filename"):
     ip, mac, date = line.split()
     print mac

-- 
Ciao,
Matteo


From michael_mccracken at mac.com  Tue Aug  3 19:33:26 2004
From: michael_mccracken at mac.com (Michael McCracken)
Date: 3 Aug 2004 16:33:26 -0700
Subject: help: Unit test fixture returning the same object
Message-ID: <9895e897.0408031533.26720ba0@posting.google.com>

Hi, I have a problem with unittest.TestCase that I could really use
some help with.

I have a class File in module File. The important thing about File for
this discussion is that it's simple - no pool of objects are involved,
and subsequent invocations of File.File('filename') should return
distinct objects (and indeed, they do on the command line). Also,
__repr__ prints out the value of id(self) for File, so I can tell
what's going on here..

I also have a suite of tests that test File in testFile.py 
Within, I have a TestCase subclass that looks like this:

class FileReadingTestCase(unittest.TestCase):
    def setUp(self):
        self.testfilename = "filename" 
        self.testfile = File.File(self.testfilename)
        print 'setup:', self.testfile

    def tearDown(self):
        print 'teardown:', self.testfile
        self.testfile.close()
        self.testfile = None
	print 'teardown:', self.testfile

... followed by a bunch of tests that use self.testfile.

The problem is that in each test case, setUp and tearDown are called
as expected according to the print statements, but they don't seem to
have any effect after the first invocation. self.testfile is always
the same instance as reported by id().

There are two strange things going on here:
1 - in tearDown(), self.testfile is indeed being set to None, but in
the subsequent invocation of setUp(), self.testfile is pointing right
back to the same object.

2 - Of course, you can't print the value of self.testfile in setUp()
before it's assigned, that works as expected, but when calling the
constructor for File, you get the same object with the same id.

This doesn't happen in any other context, so I think there is
something about the unittest framework (or just Python) that I don't
understand. Does anyone have any insight?

my python is 2.3, as distributed with Mac OS X 10.3

Thanks,
-mike


From ivoras at __geri.cc.fer.hr  Thu Aug  5 13:11:11 2004
From: ivoras at __geri.cc.fer.hr (Ivan Voras)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 19:11:11 +0200
Subject: psyco out of memory
Message-ID: <cetpoc$udc$1@bagan.srce.hr>

I have this simple *dumb* benchmark-like program:

#import psyco
#psyco.full()

d = 0.0
for i in xrange(1000000000):
     d += i
print d

I though I'd use it to try out psyco, but no, when I enable the first 
two lines, python core-dumps:

Fatal Python error: psyco: out of memory
Abort (core dumped)

Now this isn't a real-world application example, but it's certainly 
unexpected. Did psyco try to mimic range() and allocate 1G of integers?

(I'm running python 2.3.4 on FreeBSD 5)

-- 
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nath Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't
you understand?


From bh at intevation.de  Fri Aug 13 11:23:39 2004
From: bh at intevation.de (Bernhard Herzog)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 17:23:39 +0200
Subject: Idea for alternative use for @
References: <4L4Tc.6967$nu2.3787@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <s9zk6w3m58k.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>

"Paul McGuire" <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> writes:

> I thought it might be useful to include some sort of compiler directive like
> a C++ pragma to represent this kind of compile-time meta information.  And
> it struck me that '@' would be an excellent marker for such a statement,
> something like:
> @tabsize 8

FWIW, that particular directive already exists.  To set the tab width to
4 you can do either

# :ts=4

or if you prefer emacs style:

# tab-width:4

It's an undocumented (mis-)feature of CPython, though, IIRC.

   Bernhard

-- 
Intevation GmbH                                 http://intevation.de/
Skencil                                http://sketch.sourceforge.net/
Thuban                                  http://thuban.intevation.org/


From heikowu at ceosg.de  Tue Aug 10 08:49:07 2004
From: heikowu at ceosg.de (Heiko Wundram)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:49:07 +0200
Subject: Best pattern/idiom
In-Reply-To: <4edc17eb.0408092039.10958e11@posting.google.com>
References: <4117c3d8$1@buckaroo.cs.rit.edu>
	<4edc17eb.0408092039.10958e11@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <200408101449.07108.heikowu@ceosg.de>

Am Dienstag, 10. August 2004 06:39 schrieb Michele Simionato:
> >>> import itertools
> >>> def chop(it, n):
>
> ...     tup = (iter(it),)*n
> ...     return itertools.izip(*tup)
> ...
>
> >>> list(chop([1,2,3,4,5,6],3)) [(1, 2, 3), (4, 5, 6)]
> >>> list(chop([1,2,3,4,5,6],2)) [(1, 2), (3, 4), (5, 6)]
> >>> list(chop([1,2,3,4,5,6],1)) [(1,), (2,), (3,), (4,), (5,), (6,)]

Problem being:

>>> list(chop([1,2,3,4,5,6],4))
[(1, 2, 3, 4)]

If you actually want to get back everything from iterator, better do something 
like:

def ichop(it,n,rtype=list):
    it = iter(it)
    empty = False
    while not empty:
        retv = []
        while not empty and len(retv) < n:
            try:
                retv.append(it.next())
            except StopIteration:
                empty = True
        if retv:
            yield rtype(retv)

>>> list(ichop([1,2,3,4,5,6],3))
[[1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6]]
>>> list(ichop([1,2,3,4,5,6],2))
[[1, 2], [3, 4], [5, 6]]
>>> list(ichop([1,2,3,4,5,6],1))
[[1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]]
>>> list(ichop([1,2,3,4,5,6],4,tuple))
[(1, 2, 3, 4), (5, 6)]
>>> list(ichop([1,2,3,4,5,6],4))
[[1, 2, 3, 4], [5, 6]]

Heiko.


From franz.steinhaeusler at utanet.at  Sat Aug  7 17:02:26 2004
From: franz.steinhaeusler at utanet.at (Franz Steinhäusler)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 23:02:26 +0200
Subject: Killing children
References: <87smb0w4ln.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
	<mailman.1297.1091814690.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<87d624vxt2.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
Message-ID: <3kgah05savr9kek2r3fgqv56de5tn1edgl@4ax.com>

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 16:03:37 -0400, Laura Conrad
<lconrad at laymusic.org> wrote:

>    Stefan> Hi Laura,
>    Stefan> what a terrible subject line! ;-)
>
>I used to think that when I first started using UNIX in the mid 80's.
>But I am now a hardened child-killer.

As for the subject line; I thought at first glance, it was spam.

strange kind of humor.

SCNR
-- 
Franz Steinhaeusler


From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 14:09:31 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:09:31 -0500
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
In-Reply-To: <412e0b7b.7894449@news.ecn.ab.ca>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<412e0b7b.7894449@news.ecn.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <KGpXc.2846$MR2.15519@news1.mts.net>

John Savard wrote:
 > They did, though, have to select from the German people those who
 > would operate the concentration camps.
Which where the afraid ones or the ones that actually believed in him 
for one reason or another.  Yes, some people didn't need brain-washing 
to believe him.  I know it's a radical idea that some people are racist, 
but it true!

 > As for the masses, it was enough that they were afraid to try to do
 > anything to stop it.
Perhaps you should look into the history books a little closer.  There 
was this thing call the resistance in *all* the countries you know, not 
to mention the anti-nazi publications in the papers during his rise to 
power.  And without those resistance fighters, the allies might have 
failed in there endeavour.


Why did you even give an actual reply to this guy anyway?


From b.niemann at betternet.de  Mon Aug 16 05:41:35 2004
From: b.niemann at betternet.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:41:35 +0200
Subject: Displaying images stored as binary in MySQL
In-Reply-To: <c9e6ac92.0408131626.7f5c8951@posting.google.com>
References: <c9e6ac92.0408122047.1e3a4309@posting.google.com>
	<cfifm8$3bn$1@online.de>
	<c9e6ac92.0408131626.7f5c8951@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfpvas$607$1@online.de>

>>>How can this be done? Images are stored in a LONGBLOB field. When I
>>>try to display them, it prints out the binary data as it is...
>>
>>Display where? On local screen, in a webbrowser?
>>Assuming the first one, see post by Tom.
>>Assuming the second one (you're writing a cgi,mod_python... program), 
>>did you set the content-type in the http header correctly?
> 
> In a webbrowser...
> this is my code...
> 
> #!/usr/bin/python2.3
> 
> print 'Content-Type:image/jpeg\n\n'
You must use '\r\n' to terminate header lines. I'm not really sure, but 
maybe there should also be a spacing between ':' and 'image/jpeg'...
If you are using e.g. FireFox as a browser, you can user 'View Page 
Info' to see, if the browser correctly understands, what you are trying 
to tell it ('Type' should say 'image/jpeg').

> import blakHtml, sys
> sys.stderr = sys.stdout
> import MySQLdb
> import urllib
> import cgi
> import time
> prevPg=blakHtml.HTMLDocument()
> newConnection=MySQLdb.connect(host='localhost', user='blaktyger', \
>                                            passwd='linux4ever', db='photoFamille')
> curseur=newConnection.cursor()
> 
> sqlCmdFr="""SELECT *  FROM photo"""
> curseur.execute(sqlCmdFr)
> resultats = curseur.fetchall()
> p=0
> for val in resultats:
>     p=p+1
>     #print '<img src=" ' + val[5]+ ' " ' +' >' THIS DOES NOT WORK
>     print val[5]
> newConnection.close()
> I know there is no HTML code but this is just a test...
val[5] contains the raw image data (not a path), correct? Does 'photo' 
contains more than one image? Concatenating several images into one 
bytestream, is definitly not what you want.



From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Fri Aug 27 11:37:38 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:37:38 -0400
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408271136280.2069-100000@ccc7.wpi.edu>

I give a vote FOR this proposal.  Good job putting this all together.

- Chris King



From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 20:17:39 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: 5 Aug 2004 17:17:39 -0700
Subject: Decorator keyword
Message-ID: <d11dcfba.0408051617.7b4dfcc5@posting.google.com>

I mentioned in a previous post that I'd much prefer some sort of
keyword as a decorator indication than a character like @ (or the
recently suggested |).  A promising note on python-dev:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047001.html
> Perhaps this could be addressed by requiring "from __future__ import
> decorators", for one release, just like was done for "yield".  I
> expect that this would be acceptable to the ObjC folks, too.  It
> wouldn't be my favorite, but I won't rule it out just because of the
> new keyword (and yes, this is a softening of my position on new
> keywords).
> 
> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

I was just going to let this go because I thought it had been shut
down, but as it seems to have been reopened, I'd love to see something
like:

with classmethod
with returns(int)
def func(*args, **kwds):
    return 1

Or if you don't like so many lines:

with [classmethod, returns(int)]
def func(*args, **kwds):
    return 1

Or perhaps, if you like to see the def by itself:

def func(*args, **kwds) with [classmethod, returns(int)]:
    return 1

Really, I'd be much happier with any of these than any of the solely
symbol-based versions.  Neither [] alone after a function def or '@'
before one reads clearly to me as an indicator of decoratorhood.

I've always liked that Python tries to be human-readable (e.g. "for x
in lst" reads almost like English).  If at all possible, I'd like
decorators to be the same way.  In fact, while I've only used 'with'
above (because it was non-'as' keyword suggestion in the wiki), I'd be
just as happy (maybe happier) with 'decorate' or 'deco' or something
along those lines that would read even easier.

Steve


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Fri Aug  6 09:05:57 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:05:57 -0400
Subject: Decorator syntax (was Re: PEP 318 - PyFIT comments)
References: <mailman.1162.1091660561.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnch2rs1.6ei.ressler@cheetah.jpl.nasa.gov>
	<1646998998.20040804190026@MailBlocks.com>
	<mailman.1168.1091667628.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<10h34ivio5s2c21@news.supernews.com>
	<m3pt65g4hb.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
	<10h4c5iicgv7k74@news.supernews.com>
	<m3wu0csetn.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <10h70hdbbuhpfa8@news.supernews.com>

"Michael Hudson" <mwh at python.net> wrote in message
news:m3wu0csetn.fsf at pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk...
> This reply was a touch more hostile that I was expecting; if I've hit
> some nerve, sorry, if not, err, can you relax a bit?
>
> "John Roth" <newsgroups at jhrothjr.com> writes:
>
> > "Michael Hudson" <mwh at python.net> wrote in message
> > news:m3pt65g4hb.fsf at pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk...
> >
> > > Well, that would be because that's impossible :-)
> >
> > I wish you'd have told me that before I did it. As I said in
> > a prior post, I had to put a general metadata facility into
> > PyFIT, and it's working quite nicely, thank you.
>
> OK, poor choice of words.
>
> [snippity]
>
> > > What kind of metadata do you want?
> >
> > Type and other declaration information for any identifiers
> > that will be referenced in the FIT tests. Other information
> > includes things like precision for floating point numbers,
> > strings that are accepted as "true" or "false" for booleans,
> > the subtype for lists and tuples, references to custom
> > type adapters and other stuff.
>
> So, you would like to write
>
> class Thiny(object):
>     @attribute(type=float, precision=3)
>     a = 1.23
>
> ?
>
> I really don't see how you could make that work.  attribute() could
> return something that was called with the dictionary being inserted
> into, the string 'a' and the value 1.23, but... ick.  I don't think I
> like that idea.  What would you find helpful?

Well, what I need here is very simple. If the FIT test contains
a column labeled "a", then I need to find the type. If it's a float,
I need to find the default precision for the compare. (Actually,
float is a poor choice here - I fixed the need to have a precision
by using the precision information in the text version of the float,
but that's a different conversation.)

What I'm doing right now is this:

class fubar:
    _typeDict = {}
    _typeDict['a'] = "float"
    _typeDict['a.precision'] = 3

Note that I'm not defining 'a' on the class level. Whether or not
I need a default value is a purely tactical decision that's orthogonal
to the need for metadata in this application.

A somewhat better (if whimsical) example of the need for
structured metadata is:

    _typeDict['b'] = "boolean"
    _typeDict['b.false'] = "fubar"

This makes the boolean type adapter accept the string 'fubar'
as 'false'. (It doesn't make it print it that way, though.)

Or a much more pedestrian example:

    _typeDict['d'] = "date"
    _typeDict['d.parse'] = "some %format string"
    _typeDict['d.print'] = 'some other %format string'

The operands being, of course, something you can feed to the
appropriate functions in the time or datetime modules.

Notice that in all three cases I want to associate several pieces of
metadata with an identifier in the class. I don't want to associate
it with a particular object (although there are other applications that
would want to do that, especially for functions).

Also note that one of the two pieces of metadata is probably generally
useful (the type). The other is highly specific to my application.

John Roth


>
> Cheers,
> mwh
>
> -- 
>   ... but I'd rather not reinvent the wheel if I don't have to.  On
>   the other hand, if the currently instantiated version of the wheel
>   consists of a square rock covered with moss, I might as well just
>   start fresh.                          -- Roy Smith, comp.lang.python




From stefan at eischet.com  Fri Aug  6 02:44:10 2004
From: stefan at eischet.com (Stefan Eischet)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 08:44:10 +0200
Subject: tweaking @decorator syntax - yet another syntax
In-Reply-To: <1091715445.9931.17.camel@mango.cmc.ec.gc.ca>
References: <b03e80d.0408040809.66c50ecf@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408041328420.13532-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu>
	<b03e80d.0408050041.1723eb3c@posting.google.com>
	<1091715445.9931.17.camel@mango.cmc.ec.gc.ca>
Message-ID: <05C25635-E774-11D8-BDA6-000A95857E5C@eischet.com>

Hi,

I don't know if this particular syntax has been discussed already... 
please feel free to bash me if it was. ;-)

How about using "is" after the def?

class spam(object):

     def ni(self) is classmethod: # takes a decorator
         pass

     def foo(self) is (classmethod, synchronized): # or a tuple of 
decorators
         pass

	combination = (classmethod, strange, very_long_description,
                    wraps_nicely, blah_blah)

     def bar(self) is spam.combination: # another tuple of decorators
         pass

     def bar2(self) is spam.combination:
         pass

I think this is quite easy to read and, in comparison to other 
techniques, allows you to first define 'types' of decorated functions 
(like spam.combination or perhaps (Win32API, lives_in_a_dll,)). I have 
no idea if it can be easily implemented, though.

Regarding the original post below, concerning decorated classes:

superuseful = (gives_milk, mows_your_lawn, pays_your_rent)

class foobar(spam) is superuseful:
     pass

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,
   Stefan Eischet

On 05.08.2004, at 16:17, John Marshall wrote:

> On Thu, 2004-08-05 at 08:41, Sandy Norton wrote:
>> On 4 Aug 2004, Christopher T King wrote:
>>
>>> Of course, I prefer the nested block idea better (either with a new
>>> keyword or new syntax), but I don't see those (especially the syntax 
>>> one)
>>> flying anytime soon.
>>
>> I know further discussion of this topic is feeling futile, but one 
>> can only hope.
>>
>>> Unless someone can come up with an idea everyone can agree on Real 
>>> Soon
>>> Now, I think the whole idea should be dropped and wait until 3.0.  
>>> We'll
>>> have plenty of time to argue about it then.
>>
>> Agreed.
>>
>>> Sorry about the long rant, but it felt good to get that all off my 
>>> chest.
>>
>> Please, we need more rants like yours. Now if they could somehow
>> collectively become a 'public outcry' (-;
>>
>> I realize my hasty initial post didn't actually show the present 2.4 
>> form,
>> so I've included it and added your variations for the sake of 
>> comparison:
>>
>
> With the current choice and the list of alternatives you gave,
> two things struck me about the location of the decorators
> in the current choice:
>     1) They seem to be in the wrong place with respect to
>        what they are affecting.
>     2) Can decorators easily be extended to apply to class
>        and module?
>
> Whether or not the @ or some other operator/keyword/etc. is
> used, what is more easily understandable/readable?
> -----
> class Klass:
>     def __init__(self, name):
>         self.name = name
>
>     @staticmethod
>     def statmethod1(x):
>         return x
>
>     @classmethod
>     def classmethod1(cls):
>         return cls
>
>     @funcattrs(name='GvR', language='python')
>     @log(file='func.log')
>     def sayhello(self):
>         print 'hello python world'
> -----
> or
> -----
> class Klass:
>     def __init__(self, name):
>         self.name = name
>
>     def statmethod1(x):
> 	@staticmethod
>
>         return x
>
>     def classmethod1(cls):
> 	@classmethod
>
>         return cls
>
>     def sayhello(self):
> 	@funcattrs(name='GvR', language='python')
> 	@log(file='func.log')
>
>         print 'hello python world'
> -----
>
> If the decorators are metadata, that may be extended to affect
> not only functions or methods, but classes, and modules(?), I would
> think that wherever a variable or function call would go that
> would affect the function, method, class, or module, is the
> right place for a decorator.
>
> In the alternative above, it _may_ be that the decorators would
> only be valid if they are located in specific locations, e.g.,
> before any non decorator (or comment, or __doc__ information)
> statements.
>
> John
>
> -- 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
>
// stefan at eischet.com //



From ivan at ivan-herman.net  Sat Aug 14 08:54:18 2004
From: ivan at ivan-herman.net (Ivan Herman)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 14:54:18 +0200
Subject: python and XML resources
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1649.1092484522.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1649.1092484522.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <411e0b6e$0$94697$d5255a0c@news.wanadoo.nl>

Essentially, PyXML implements the DOM specification of W3C. Once one 
understands the way the abstract IDL specfiication in W3C's DOM are 
mapped onto Python constructs, I think the simplest is to rely on the 
W3C documents, see

http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/REC-DOM-Level-2-Core-20001113/core.html


I hope this helps

Ivan




Ajay wrote:

> hi!
> 
> does anyone know of good online resources on XML processing in Python. I am
> using the PyXML package and have read the introductory XML HOWTO.
> what i am looking for is a more detailed and comprehensive coverage of the
> entire package - all the classes and functions etc
> 
> cheers
> ajay
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From richardjones at optushome.com.au  Wed Aug 18 19:36:44 2004
From: richardjones at optushome.com.au (richard)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:36:44 +1000
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4123e80c$0$11790$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>

Lucas Raab wrote:
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....

32, been using it for a decade.


    Richard



From jaydonnell at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 23 21:57:06 2004
From: jaydonnell at yahoo.com (Jay Donnell)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 18:57:06 -0700
Subject: urllib hangs
References: <a6fdfd6b.0408230902.2afc0e08@posting.google.com>
	<cgdaoh$1gn$01$1@news.t-online.com>
	<a6fdfd6b.0408231416.45a7e050@posting.google.com>
	<rFuWc.2838$WW4.34331@news4.e.nsc.no>
Message-ID: <a6fdfd6b.0408231757.283db2ce@posting.google.com>

Don't you have something better to do with your time? 
I missed that last sentence because I was at work and trying to do a
few things at once.


From eric at enthought.com  Mon Aug 16 13:42:11 2004
From: eric at enthought.com (eric jones)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:42:11 -0500
Subject: ANN: Python/Scientific Job openings at Enthought
Message-ID: <4120F1F3.4020006@enthought.com>

Hey Folks,

Enthought continues to grow, and we're hiring again.  There are several 
positions open, and most of them involve python+scientific computing.  A 
couple of the positions also involve support of SciPy.  I'm very 
interested in finding a person for the "scientist" job posting that is 
both able to work well with our customers and also has the personality 
and interest to work with the SciPy community to help push the library 
forward.

More information is available on our web site.

    http://www.enthought.com/careers.htm

Our current development efforts are in the areas of electromagnetics, 
geophysics, and graphics (2D and 3D). 

If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me.  Please 
forward the link to anyone you feel might be interested.

thanks,
eric



From jerf at jerf.org  Sun Aug 22 02:44:30 2004
From: jerf at jerf.org (Jeremy Bowers)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 06:44:30 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - keyword choice
References: <mailman.2136.1093150593.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.22.02.44.17.804648@jerf.org>

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:51:09 -0700, Robert Brewer wrote:
> I'd be most interested to hear arguments _against_ "declare", if there
> are any.

My first objection would be that decorators aren't "declarations"; that is
one use but not the only one.

The flip side is that I doubt that any one word will ever capture as a
reasonable verb what they are doing, so I'm not sure this argument is
meaningful, as it applies equally to all proposals, up to and including
"decorate". ("Decoration" is the mechanism, but it is not always the
result.)

I'd have to say "transform" is probably the best candidate here; while not
all uses of decorators are transforms (like attaching pieces of metadata),
it at least brings to mind the correct implementation, which is the
passing of the method through a function. 

"declare" brings to mind attaching a piece of data to the function or
making a statement about the function to the compiler, without changing
the underlying function. Ditto "apply".

"decorate" brings either nothing to mind, or some vision of the Design
Pattern which really isn't right.

"as" seems to imply some sort of syntactic change, and only works AFAICS
for staticmethod and classmethod. "as: author('Steve')" doesn't make much
sense.

To sum up, *all* keywords are insufficient, and I think there are only two
choices, depending on the goal: "transform" to give a hint about what is
really happening, or "decorate" on the grounds that there *is* no
ready-made keyword and it is reasonbly easy to attach whatever Pythonic
connotations to the word we choose; witness "generators".


(Apologies if this has been mentioned before; I've been trying to keep up
but I have failed.)


From ellisjb at my-deja.com  Sat Aug  7 01:23:59 2004
From: ellisjb at my-deja.com (ellisjb at my-deja.com)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 22:23:59 -0700
Subject: Paul Graham on Python hackers
In-Reply-To: <3064b51d.0408061127.32536826@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cf1p1f$ke0@odak26.prod.google.com>

Yeah, but Graham goes on to lump perl in with python, so he clearly
doesn't know what he's talking about. :)

(In all seriousness I think python and java have a lot more in common
than python and perl.)

-Jonathan

Original Message Follows:
> Paul Graham's recent book "Hackers & Painters" may be interesting
> readers for Python programmers. He likes flexible languages like
> Python, although Lisp is his favorite. Here is a quote from his book,
> also online at http://www.paulgraham.com/gh.html , where he contrasts
> Python and Java programmers. He is opinionated :).
>
> "When you decide what infrastructure to use for a project, you're not
> just making a technical decision. You're also making a social
> decision, and this may be the more important of the two. For example,
> if your company wants to write some software, it might seem a prudent
> choice to write it in Java. But when you choose a language, you're
> also choosing a community. The programmers you'll be able to hire to
> work on a Java project won't be as smart as the ones you could get to
> work on a project written in Python. [2] And the quality of your
> hackers probably matters more than the language you choose. Though,
> frankly, the fact that good hackers prefer Python to Java should tell
> you something about the relative merits of those languages.



From michael at stroeder.com  Thu Aug 26 09:16:29 2004
From: michael at stroeder.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Michael_Str=F6der?=)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:16:29 +0200
Subject: Converting hex string to an integer
In-Reply-To: <sqmdnY4BTq5JR7DcRVn-qQ@powergate.ca>
References: <412d9e18$0$22821$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>
	<cgkkki$774$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
	<sqmdnY4BTq5JR7DcRVn-qQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <ee4102-ot6.ln1@nb2.stroeder.com>

Peter Hansen wrote:
> Rick Holbert wrote:
> 
>> Derek Fountain wrote:
>>
>>> Given the character string "0x00A1B2C3" arriving at sys.argv[1] how do I
>>> convert that to an integer which I can do some math on?
>>
>> i = eval(sys.argv[1])
> 
> That's dangerous advice to a newbie if not qualified carefully.
> 
> Derek, "eval" could be the source of serious security problems
> if you don't understand its power.

Yes, eval() is risky! Try to get rid of eval() or you MUST protect each and 
every call to eval() with paranoid parameter checking!

int(sys.argv[1],16) would be a better approach here...

 >>> int("0x00A1B2C3",16)
10597059
 >>> int("__import_('os').system('rm -rf /')",16)
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
ValueError: invalid literal for int(): __import_('os').system('rm -rf /')
 >>>

Ciao, Michael.


From kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no  Fri Aug 27 21:05:11 2004
From: kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Torgrim Homme)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 03:05:11 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<tyf3c28ps1t.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
	<1ry8k0d2az.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<10iv0kid2ig9ka6@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <1rpt5ccbso.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>

[Jeff Shannon]:
>
>   The irony of [this] being said in defense of adding braces (even
>   optional ones) to Python is truly awe-inspiring.

please provide an argument rather than engage in ad hominem attacks.

-- 
Kjetil T.


From max at alcyone.com  Fri Aug 13 19:36:57 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:36:57 -0700
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<Uf6dnb0hhtx1ToHcRVn-vg@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <411D5099.A524BA01@alcyone.com>

Peter Hansen wrote:

> I think you're right on both counts.  For me, the adaptation
> period was roughly ten seconds...

Particularly with emacs mode.  I didn't have to worry about indentation;
my editor handled that for me.

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ If you don't take chances, you can't do anything in life.
    -- Michael Spinks


From sridharinfinity at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 08:04:16 2004
From: sridharinfinity at gmail.com (Sridhar  R)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 05:04:16 -0700
Subject: Python future performance and speed
In-Reply-To: <slrncigaq5.cj9.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <cga240$hc9@odbk17.prod.google.com>

Python is used in a fps Windows game called 'Blade of Darkness'.
Except the core engine part (written in C/C++), everything else is
written in Python-1.5.2



From bitshadow at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 13 16:39:04 2004
From: bitshadow at yahoo.com (Michael Scarlett)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 13:39:04 -0700
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1584.1092379077.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ce6aaec0.0408131239.71932ba2@posting.google.com>

Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1584.1092379077.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> On 12 Aug 2004 17:05:34 -0700, Michael Scarlett <bitshadow at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > [ pie decorators ]
> > Am i the only one with a
> > visceral reaction to this thing???
> 
> So did you have a similar reaction on first hitting the indentation for
> blocks? I know I dimly recall thinking that this was very strange and
> horrible (dimly, because it was 1992 or 1993).


one of the first books I read on python was Magnus lie Hetland's
Practical python.
http://hetland.org/writing/practical-python/
in the introduction he had a few quotes.
"A C program is like a fast dance on a newly waxed floor by people
carrying razors"

"C++: hard to learn and built to stay that way"

"Java is, in many ways, C++"

"And now for something completely different....."

the last was his intro to learning Python. When the trs-80 was out
from radio shack, i used to code in basic on it. I lost interest in
computers and only picked it up a few years ago. I investigated python
and fell in love with the language. It's elegance, its simplicity (at
least for the programmer) and its sheer delight to code in. I don't
work in the IT field, and programming isn't my bread and butter. But
just because its so fun, python brought me back into computers - i've
created a a few websites with python on the back end, manipulated
files and a few other projects for intellectual curiousity and for my
day to day work and home life easier. As a result of learning and
coding in python, I wanted to learn more about it, and so I turned to
C, and am now actively learning it simply to learn how to integrate
and build on pyton. I tolerate C's ugliness because i know the end
result is a labour of love? when I can work with it and python. Silly
maybe, but i'm going on emotion here, not logic. Python is simply fun
to code in, and when its fun your more productive and excited to learn
and tackle new problems cause your not bogged down in remebering  how
the increment(++) operator works for pointers in a particular function
that supposed to dynamically allocate memory. terminating every
statement with a ";" or manipulating fgets to discard the '\n'. yada
yada yada.....
The point is python just works.
someone once said python is runable pseudocode. And it works, and
works good at that. I couldn't agree more. I think and then I code.
simple.

addenum: i've had this article bookmarked for some time because once
you read it, you have to wonder are they talking about python. because
you realise python is there already. for those of you interested to
read it and comment on it:

http://archive.gamespy.com/legacy/articles/devweek_b.shtm

thats my $0.02


From geoff at variosoft.com  Sun Aug  8 05:18:42 2004
From: geoff at variosoft.com (Geoff Caplan)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 10:18:42 +0100
Subject: Compiling disutil modules on Windows
In-Reply-To: <13185971049.20040808082256@variosoft.com>
References: <13185971049.20040808082256@variosoft.com>
Message-ID: <694837405.20040808101842@variosoft.com>

Hi folks,

I have S?bastien Sauvage's example extension compiled and working.

For the record, here is what I did, updated for Python 2.3.

For the gory details, see:

http://sebsauvage.net/python/mingw.html

1) Install MinGW

- Go to http://www.mingw.org/download.shtml

- Find the current version of MinGW. At the time of writing, this is
MinGW-3.1.0-1.exe. It's around 14 megs.

- Run the install

- Rename the MinGW directory to gcc, if desired


2) Install SWIG

- Go to http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=1645

You are looking for SWIGWIN.

- rename the installed directory to Swig, if desired


3) Add gcc and Swig to your Autoexec.bat file

This is normally found at C:\Autoexec.bat

Mine looked like this:

SET PATH=c:\gcc\bin;%PATH%
SET PATH=c:\Swig;%PATH%

I rebooted to activate these paths. If you knew Windoze better than
I do, there is probably a more elegant way to do this.


4) Copy python23.dll to your Python libs directory

Search C:\ for python23.dll.

On Win2000, you will find it in c:\WINNT\system32\

Copy it to C:\Python23\libs\


5) Compile a test extension

------------------------------------------
- Create the setup.py file (note the underscore on the extension name:
this seems to be a requirement)

# setup.py
import distutils
from distutils.core import setup, Extension
setup(name = "Simple example from the SWIG website",
        version = "2.3",
        ext_modules = [Extension("_example", ["example.i","example.c"])])

------------------------------------------
- Create the example.c file

/* File : example.c */
#include <time.h>
double My_variable = 3.0;

int fact(int n) {    
        if (n <= 1) return 1;    
        else return n*fact(n-1);    
        }

int my_mod(int x, int y) {    
        return (x%y);    
        }
        
char *get_time() {    
        time_t ltime;    
        time(&ltime);    
        return ctime(&ltime);    

------------------------------------------
- Create the example.i file

/* example.i */
%module example
%{
/* Put header files here (optional) */
%} 
extern double My_variable;
extern int fact(int n);
extern int my_mod(int x, int y);
extern char *get_time()

------------------------------------------

- Now launch your dos shell and cd to the directory containing your
example files.

- Run the command: python setup.py build -cmingw32

If all goes well, this will create a directory "build" in the same
directory as your files. You will find your new dll "_example.pyd"
under lib.win32

- Copy the dll to E:\Python23\DLLs\


6) Run your test extension

- Launch a Python shell and run:

>>> import _example
>>> _example.fact(5)
120
>>> _example.get_time()
'Sun Aug 08 10:09:25 2004\n'

I tried renaming the extension without the leading underscore but this
generates an error. I am new to Python: perhaps a SWIG guru could
explain why the underscore is required, or if not required, how it can
be avoided?

Hope someone finds this useful...

------------------ 
Geoff Caplan
Vario Software Ltd
(+44) 121-515 1154 



From noone at here.com  Mon Aug 23 11:18:56 2004
From: noone at here.com (M. Clift)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:18:56 +0100
Subject: Making different things equal
References: <cga9ha$4rl$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<Td3Wc.496441$Gx4.133939@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
	<cgah0v$aio$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<LSdWc.499640$Gx4.246971@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <cgd1r4$h5k$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>

Cheers Wes,

That works a treat.

Thanks,

Malcolm




From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Aug  7 05:42:16 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (simo)
Date: 7 Aug 2004 02:42:16 -0700
Subject: Prothon is switching to the .NET platform
References: <000401c47b59$32539220$0d01a8c0@MarkVaio>
	<mailman.1257.1091769173.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cf0e9e$lgs$2@news-reader3.wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <30260531.0408070142.7e87a655@posting.google.com>

Michel Claveau wrote:

> I understand ; but, perso, I think : "it's a good new"  (because it is a
> certain guarantee of interworking).

Yeah, I wasn't interested in Prothon until I saw this - it really
didn't offer me anything to switch from Python, but maybe this does,
although I expect I'll prefer IronPython, as it's "real" Python, not
"kinda" Python....

Hey with any luck, @decorators won't be implemented in Prothon.NET ;-)


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Sun Aug 22 18:27:43 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 22:27:43 GMT
Subject: Python is to C as letters are to words.
References: <b14bfabe.0408221055.4f2dc1e7@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.2164.1093201904.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <z59Wc.9049$Jn5.7516@fe1.texas.rr.com>

"Gary Herron" <gherron at islandtraining.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2164.1093201904.5135.python-list at python.org...
> On Sunday 22 August 2004 11:55 am, r holland wrote:
> > My nine word description of the python language.
>
> Huh ... Either you've got that backward, or I completely misunderstand
> what you're trying to say?
>
>
Maybe Gary meant "letters" like when I write a letter to my wife, it is
composed of words, so words are building blocks which one uses to compose
letters. ? :)

Just kidding, it's a good intention.

-- Paul
(Just looking for a little levity on c.l.py today... Everyone is getting so
*serious*!)




From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 17 12:11:38 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 12:11:38 -0400
Subject: serial and threads
In-Reply-To: <39ba6e78.0408170554.4b6b46bf@posting.google.com>
References: <39ba6e78.0408170215.59f5bfc0@posting.google.com>
	<39ba6e78.0408170554.4b6b46bf@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <U9udnZz_B_2ms7_cRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>

Silke wrote:
> I already found a solution using 'threading' instead of 'thread' :-)

Are you positive that is really a solution?  If the original
problem was truly because of a thread-safety issue, then it's
most likely, I think, that it was a race condition and that
it could very well re-appear in the future.

The "threading" module is mostly just a higher level API on
top of the "thread" module, so that change alone seems unlikely
to solve the issue, unless there is code in serialwin32 specifically
to do the proper locking when the threading module is used...

-Peter


From jjl at pobox.com  Mon Aug  2 19:10:11 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 03 Aug 2004 00:10:11 +0100
Subject: Plethora of Pythons (was: Re: IronPython-0.6 is now available!)
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>
	<4108710c@news0.ucc.uconn.edu>
	<30260531.0407290958.3c97aa70@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <87fz75uofg.fsf_-_@pobox.com>

simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (simo) writes:

> flacco <flacco003 at spambadTwilight-systems.com> wrote:
> 
> > > IronPython is currently at a pre-alpha stage suitable for
> > > experimentation but not for serious development work.
> 
> Yeah, very pre-alpha from the few tests I did, but I'm very excited
> about this, especially as it seems the Parrot guys have given up on
> Python :-(
[...]

Hey, I just realised how many Python implementations there are now:

Useful:

CPython
Jython
Stackless
psyco

On their way:

IronPython
PyPy
parrot?
Starkiller?

Not such a short list.

Maybe standardisation committees are just round the corner.  Oh joy.


and a few close descendants, of course:

Pyrex
Prothon
Boo
Vyper (defunct)


John


From tismer at stackless.com  Mon Aug  9 06:09:52 2004
From: tismer at stackless.com (Christian Tismer)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 12:09:52 +0200
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
In-Reply-To: <Xns953F8910730B8cpl19ghumspamgourmet@195.20.224.116>
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu>
	<cf3b56$gt6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>	<du7smayidxy.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>	<Xns953F7763A998cpl19ghumspamgourmet@195.20.224.116>	<cf4ub3$msb$1@namru.matavnet.hu>
	<Xns953F8910730B8cpl19ghumspamgourmet@195.20.224.116>
Message-ID: <41174D70.2080601@stackless.com>

Harald Massa wrote:

> Mikl?s,
> 
> 
>>>I do not understand at all what's that decorators thingy, but I know
>>>that girls often put some deco into flats and it really looks cosy
>>>after, so I assume that decorators are not on the dark side of the
>>>source. 
> 
> 
>>The rest of the novelties in v2.4 are more or less fine with me, too.
>>But IMHO decorators are exactly Dark Code Wader stuff. Basically it's
>>about self-modifying code.

Ooh, this is truely too much fear. Decorators are about
modification of how code is understood, but not modification.
[ If it were so, then I'd be probably much more interested :-) ]

> I honestly ask that someone could explain to the less enlightened like me 
> what this decorator thingy really is. What does it make a correct step on 
> the path to enlightenment?

Here a very short and very incomplete explainment of what
a decorator is. FOr a more complete explanation, please
refer to the PEP, or even wade through python-dev.
I also just give one simple example, there are lots of
other uses for decorators.
But since probably more than 95 percent of Python code will
not need decorators in the near future, just one example
should be enough to just don't let you worry about what
the Voodoo is.

Something many Python programmers even don't know about are
class methods and static methods.

A static method is simply a method which is defined in a class,
but that does not operate on self. The self variable is not
supplied. A static method is not supposed to be a method of an
instance. It is just sitting in a class for convenience, but
behaves like an ordinary function.

There is a more advanced concept: a class method. Instead of self
or nothing, it always receives the class as first parameter.
But please read the docstring of the classmethod function.
We will stick with the simple static method, here.

Until Python 2.3, it was necessary to "declare" a static method
by calling the function staticmethod on it.

Sample code:

class MyClass(object):

     def func(arg1, arg2):
         return arg1 + arg2

     func = classmethod(func)

What can you see here?
The "def func" lacks a self parameter. You want to call it
with the two parameters arg1 and arg2, but without the
extra line
     func = classmethod(func)

you would get this result:
Trying to call func via the class gives you

 >>> MyClass.func(2, 3)
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<interactive input>", line 1, in ?
TypeError: unbound method func() must be called with MyClass instance as 
first argument (got int instance instead)
 >>>

Trying to call func via an instance also doesn't work:

 >>> inst = MyClass()
 >>> inst.func(2, 3)
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<interactive input>", line 1, in ?
TypeError: func() takes exactly 2 arguments (3 given)
 >>>

Now, with the mentioned extra line, the function object is
modified in a way that it understands that it is an ordinary
function, and it works in both cases:

 >>> class MyClass(object):
... 	def func(arg1, arg2):
... 		return arg1 + arg2
... 	func=staticmethod(func)
... 	
 >>> MyClass.func(2, 3)
5
 >>> inst = MyClass()
 >>> inst.func(2, 3)
5
 >>>

--- now finally on the decorator issue ---

What you have see is, that staticmethod has to be called *after*
the function is defined. The modified function is assigned to
the class as a post process.
For very long functions, this can become cumbersome.
Not only that you have to type the function name three times,
you also have to scroll through the full function definition,
possibly even through the rest of the whole class definition,
to see whther the function is modified somehow.

One of the purposes of decorators is now to overcome this
problem, and to annotate the function earlier than at its end.
There are many proposals how to do this, also with extended
functionality. But I'll reduce the example to the currently
proposed syntax:

class MyClass(object):

     @classmethod

     def func(arg1, arg2):
         return arg1 + arg2


This is the basic idea what a decorator does:
Make modifiers like classmethod into a prefix
of a function.


I know this description is incomplete, but I beg those who
know better _not_ to respond and prove their knowledge.
I wanted to give a simple idea. Corrections are welcome, of course.
Everything else is documented in PEP318.

ciao - chris

-- 
Christian Tismer             :^)   <mailto:tismer at stackless.com>
Mission Impossible 5oftware  :     Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a     :    *Starship* http://starship.python.net/
14109 Berlin                 :     PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/
work +49 30 89 09 53 34  home +49 30 802 86 56  mobile +49 173 24 18 776
PGP 0x57F3BF04       9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619  305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04
      whom do you want to sponsor today?   http://www.stackless.com/



From urbushey at sas.upenn.edu  Thu Aug  5 19:44:58 2004
From: urbushey at sas.upenn.edu (uri bushey)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 17:44:58 -0600
Subject: Standalone Python Programs...
Message-ID: <ceugpq$35rs$1@netnews.upenn.edu>

I have a Python program that is built on an infrastructure of quite a 
few other programs, but I would like to create a standalone nonetheless.

It doesn't necesarily have to be its own executable, although this is 
the most attractive option - it could just mean distributing the entire 
python distribution with it in an installer or something.

However, here is what I have called in my python file:
Tkinter, and multiple Pmw widgets
WaveSurfer, called as a "Wsurf" widget, which is a great little program 
used for Spectrograms of wave files etc. It relies on Tcl/Tk and the 
SNACK library, which also have to be installed for my script to work.

Can anyone help? I'm open to any option, py2xe, mcmillan's, or cx_freeze 
or whatever that program is, or even an installer that installs all of 
those programs.

I'm vying for the most elegant solution.

Thanks!

--uri


From skip at pobox.com  Tue Aug 10 12:46:49 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 11:46:49 -0500
Subject: decorators vs GIL
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed2040808011667ddee7b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>
	<mailman.1345.1091924284.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<8YudnZoJ4NdLEYjcRVn-jA@speakeasy.net>
	<0bidnfbR2_PZOIjcRVn-pA@giganews.com>
	<e69d3ed2040808011667ddee7b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16664.64505.157539.635524@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Anthony> As far as "fixing" the GIL - well, no-one on Python-Dev has
    Anthony> obviously found it to be a problem for them. 

I wouldn't state the case that strongly.  There appear to be bigger fish for
the python-dev gang to fry up to this point.  Perhaps if more of us were
scientific computation types the GIL would be seen as a more important
barrier to be removed.  That a fairly bright guy (Greg Stein) removed it
once and found performance to be disappointing doesn't advocate strongly for
removal of the GIL either.

Skip


From FBatista at uniFON.com.ar  Mon Aug 30 13:45:55 2004
From: FBatista at uniFON.com.ar (Batista, Facundo)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:45:55 -0300
Subject: about presicion
Message-ID: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C78A5@escpl.tcp.com.ar>

[alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com]

#- ok but where can i download deciaml? waht about gmpy? which 
#- is better?

>From http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/python/python/dist/src/Lib/

Don't know gmpy, so I can't compare. But decimal will be in the standard
library, so since Py2.4 you'll not need an external module.

.       Facundo 


From whereU at now.com  Fri Aug 27 00:32:48 2004
From: whereU at now.com (Eric Pederson)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:32:48 -0800
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
Message-ID: <20040826203248.1132322.whereU@now.com>

Xah Lee wrote:

> >
> >> Did you know that throughout history there's this thing called cult?
> >
> >I think you're getting confused with the Blue ?yster Cult.
> >Don't Fear the Reaper - great song.
> 
> And then there's this crazy little thing called love...
> -- 


I liked the "Cult's" highly cultural hit "Godzilla".  Perhaps not the most high minded of their catalog, but the only one, to my knowledge, that both Larry and Guido sang on.


re cults... In a rich area of the Silicon Valley, where the IPO lucky live, there is a pretty Dianetics school for the kids: what else do you need to know about the tech industry?  ;-)




Eric Pederson
== people get so confused when I use triple quote strings in my normal correspondence! ==

http://www.songzilla.blogspot.com
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
domainNot="@something.com"
domainIs=domainNot.replace("s","z")
ePrefix="".join([chr(ord(x)+1) for x in "do"])
mailMeAt=ePrefix+domainIs
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Fri Aug 20 10:00:11 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:00:11 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<du7hdqyxezw.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>
Message-ID: <LtnVc.4602$Jn5.465@fe1.texas.rr.com>

"Ville Vainio" <ville at spammers.com> wrote in message
news:du7hdqyxezw.fsf at mozart.cc.tut.fi...
> >>>>> "Paul" == Paul McGuire <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> writes:
>
>     Paul> (And let's hope we get at least as good a response as the
"average age"
>     Paul> thread!)
>
> Not going to happen, with the words "alternative decorator syntax" in
> the subject. No sensible person wants to see yet another wacky
> alternative, and the subject promises as much.
>
> Hence, I won't vote yet because, at minimum, you need a better subject
> line.
>
> Something like this needs to be announced somewhere (e.g. daily
> python-url).
>
> -- 
> Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb

Ville -

I'm afraid I have to agree, the subject is a poor one.  I noticed that
yesterday as the responses were slow to come in.  Something more on the
order of "READ THIS - IT'S FREAKIN' IMPORTANT!"  is surely warranted.

I am still relatively new to Usenet, and surely not aware of how to update
the subject of an existing post, otherwise I would have done so!

But please don't abstain in voting over my poor judgment in titling this
thread, the responses are starting to trickle in (there was already a
cross-mention on python-dev).  And I would not at all be offended if you
posted an additional note with some more-appropriate subject, directing
people to this process.

Thanks,
-- Paul




From del at mjclift.freeserve.co.uk  Fri Aug 13 01:19:35 2004
From: del at mjclift.freeserve.co.uk (Calvin79)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 01:19:35 -0400
Subject: while and if
References: <e0197c1847cb38af22dceeb8aaa6e679@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>
	<mailman.1581.1092372820.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <0bdd1a7f5df1e62a591f6f1be0cd7d0f@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>

Thankyou Satchit, it works exactly as I wanted!

Calvin




From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 30 11:29:19 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 11:29:19 -0400
Subject: use win32 COM in python
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2603.1093876312.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <cguo6j$j67$1@news.yaako.com>
	<mailman.2603.1093876312.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <UrydnV6BrPxN2q7cRVn-rQ@powergate.ca>

(Sorry for mis-post... trying again.)

Dave Brueck wrote:

> Have a look at ctypes and/or win32com - they allow you to use COM (in 
                                ^^^^^^^^
Just to note: win32com is part of the "pywin32" package, formerly
called win32all.

> varying degrees) from Python, so what you're trying to do is probably 
> possible.

Definitely.. both should work.  There are also many examples out there
of using such things for talking via COM, e.g. to automate Internet
Explorer.

-Peter


From vjshield-widgets at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 12:07:21 2004
From: vjshield-widgets at yahoo.com (vjshield-widgets at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:07:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Question on weightless threads and generators:
Message-ID: <20040826160721.51148.qmail@web41313.mail.yahoo.com>

I have a workerclass which takes in several parameters
for initialization. This class would have a doWork
function. Currently this function has a loop which
does all the work and then returns. I have to extend
the application to be able to support many different
workerClass instances all executing at the same time.
I was thinking of using generators to do this. 

I have the following questions on generators:

1. Can a generator function be inside a class
2. When you yield a generator, are all the instance
variables of the class saved as well.
3. If I want to do n units of work for each call to
the generator function, how do I pass the n to the
generator function?

class WorkerClass():
    def __init__(self, someVariables):
        self.someVariables
        initializtionFunctionCalls()
        
    def workerFunction(self, numUnitsOfWork):
        count = 0
        for i in timeUnits:
            application logic
            if count == numUnitsOfWork:
                yield None
                
        <end of function application logic> 
        
        
I'll then have a thread manager which will initialize
all the worker classes and make calls to
workerfunctions based ont he priority of each worker
class. Will this work?




From kollmann at telbiomed.at  Fri Aug 13 06:04:49 2004
From: kollmann at telbiomed.at (Alexander Kollmann)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 12:04:49 +0200
Subject: Recompiling cpp
Message-ID: <cfi3o6$86l$1@sea.gmane.org>

hi,

i'm have no idea how to recompile a *.cpp for a certain python version. how
can i do that ?
i need the compiled pymat file for python 2.1. i have it compiled form for
the version 2.2 and i have a cpp-file.

regards

alex





From fumanchu at amor.org  Mon Aug 23 10:32:15 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 07:32:15 -0700
Subject: J2 paper 0.2.1
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E39@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Colin J. Williams wrote:
> One nit picking comment on Robert Brewer's document: An 
> annotation is a 
> transformation of a function, as a change to the flow of control is.

I'd like someone to analyze that further. "Transform", like the word
"change", can mean almost anything in English. However, I find the use
of the term in programs to generally mean either coerce/convert/cast
between types, or some other mechanism whereby one object is supplied,
and another object returned. That is, "transform" affects Being/"is" as
opposed to Attribute/"has".

However, neither your "gut feeling" nor mine about the issue is
enough--we need a more rigorous heuristic to decide. Finding precedent
would be a good start, if anyone wants to try.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no  Sat Aug 28 05:47:31 2004
From: kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Torgrim Homme)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:47:31 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<tyf3c28ps1t.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
	<1ry8k0d2az.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<10iv0kid2ig9ka6@corp.supernews.com>
	<1rpt5ccbso.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<10ivpk9inpnh65@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <1rd61bd26k.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>

[Jeff Shannon]:
>
>   Now, what do you gain by adding braces?  The ability of tools to
>   better reindent code, supposedly.

no, the ability of having wrongly indented code throw syntax errors.
there are many workarounds for individual editors, but nothing to help
eliminate this error class altogether.

the many workarounds also lead to "more than one way to do it".  the
code I read can be using "#fi", "# end if", "# }", "pass" or nothing.
sure, I can write a tool to enforce a single coding standard for my
project, but external code will naturally not comply.  that's why I
think it would be good if Python decreed a single method of using both
belts and braces.

currently, I'm using the "nothing" style, and like it very much.  my
motivation is that a member of our development group religuously
litters his code with "#fi" and "#done".  rather than just tell him to
stop it, I thought I'd explore the avenue of a compromise, since I
myself would like to use braces in my code in some instances to
improve the visual cue in "deep" (4-5) indentation blocks.  (this can
happen even if the function fits on the screen.  splitting out the
core of it is in some cases awkward.)

>   But I have to say, using block-indent and block-dedent commands,
>   I've never had a difficult time with maintaining proper relative
>   indentation of cut-and-pasted code blocks.

I wouldn't say it's a frequent problem for me, it's happening me a
couple of times per year, and some of my colleagues report likewise.
but wasting perhaps a workday a year on such a silly issue is
annoying.

>   I don't see the problem you're trying to solve, I'm not aware of
>   it being a significant problem throughout Python's 10+ year
>   history, and I honestly doubt that your "solution" would provide
>   much significant benefit.

my hope is that my solution can be ignored by those who don't need it,
and used by those who like it.

>   Note, also, that this is not an ad hominem attack.

no, it was a long, well thought-out article.  thank you.
-- 
Kjetil T.


From rkern at ucsd.edu  Tue Aug 17 15:13:14 2004
From: rkern at ucsd.edu (Robert Kern)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:13:14 -0500
Subject: Editors again
In-Reply-To: <MPG.1b8c14fce7193113989688@news2.atlantic.net>
References: <cfrbse$j8n$1@bagan.srce.hr> <cft8gn$gjhm$1@swen.emba.uvm.edu>
	<MPG.1b8c14fce7193113989688@news2.atlantic.net>
Message-ID: <cftlcc$4rv$1@news1.ucsd.edu>

ChrisH wrote:

> Doesn't it cost around $3000 for a Qt license to run the program?

He's describing a setup that uses Qt for X11 (which is released under 
the GPL) that just happens to run on Windows (or at least the X server 
runs on Windows). He is *not* using the Qt libraries that use native 
Windows drawing calls (which is only available under a proprietary 
license from Trolltech).

-- 
Robert Kern
rkern at ucsd.edu

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
  Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
   -- Richard Harter


From grante at visi.com  Wed Aug 25 11:45:11 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 15:45:11 GMT
Subject: Getting at the bits of a 32-bit integer
References: <85b54e91.0408231552.75f85727@posting.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.23.20.16.40.406025@jerf.org>
	<412a98f4$0$65569$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<412cb279$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
Message-ID: <412cb407$0$62953$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-25, Scott David Daniels <Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org> wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>>... That's a bit, um, conceited.  Somebody's got to twiddle all
>> those low-level bits out there to provide the infrastructure
>> that makes the world run.
>> 
>> I'm one of those people, and I need to do bit-twiddling quite
>> often while implimenting various communications protocols.
>
> If you are interested in such things, take a look at:
>
>      http://members.dsl-only.net/~daniels/bits.html
>
> It lets you do things like look at bit-ranges of (int, long, float)
> and find things like msb, lsb, particular bits (bit) and
> extract bit ranges.

That looks handy.

The other thing that looks very useful is a module posted a few
weeks back that impliments fixed-length numbers.  In addition
to manipulating individual bits, one often needs to do
operations on binary, two's compliment numbers of known, fixed
lengths.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Yes, Private
                                  at               DOBERMAN!!
                               visi.com            


From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug 16 10:24:56 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 14:24:56 GMT
Subject: Python secure?
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<411ffef6$0$65603$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<t1t5v1-316.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
Message-ID: <4120c3b8$0$8079$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-16, Roger Binns <rogerb at rogerbinns.com> wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>> I don't see how decompiling is a copyright violation.  If I buy
>> a copy of a book, I'm pretty sure I can translate it into
>> another language if I want to form my own use.
>
> They need to use what they decompile for it to be a copyright
> violation.

IANAL, but it looks like under Title 17, the act of creating a
derived work is an infringement.  It doesn't say the derived
work has to be used and/or distributed for it to be an
infringement.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  NEWARK has been
                                  at               REZONED!! DES MOINES has
                               visi.com            been REZONED!!


From http  Mon Aug 23 14:54:49 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 11:54:49 -0700
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<7x4qmv6cwo.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<slrncihlu9.av9.grante@isis.visi.com>
	<7x1xhz1173.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<pan.2004.08.23.09.45.28.816704@jeremysanders.net>
Message-ID: <7xfz6d8z2e.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Jeremy Sanders <jeremy+plusnews at jeremysanders.net> writes:
> > Sometimes that happens.  Other times it really is too slow, and I rewrite
> > it in C.  Other times Python is too bloated and I can't even consider
> > using it; for example, in anything that users need to download without a
> > big fuss.
> 
> Most Linux distributions include python as standard, so the users only
> need to download your script (which will probably be smaller than the
> equivalent C code).

IMO, mainstream applications are applications that are used by a big
chunk of the general public.  That can include server side
applications (e.g.  I'd consider Google web search to be a mainstream
application) as well as stuff like MS Office.  The server side stuff
can of course run on Linux or anything else the implementers chose.
But I wouldn't consider any Linux client side application to be
mainstream.  Much as I wish it were otherwise, there just aren't that
many people running Linux on their home computers.


From grante at visi.com  Sat Aug 28 10:56:50 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 14:56:50 GMT
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<tyf3c28ps1t.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
	<1ry8k0d2az.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87acwgvy51.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<2pb36dFibuj3U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <41309d32$0$65611$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-28, Reinhold Birkenfeld <reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net> wrote:
> Isaac To wrote:
>>>>>>> "Kjetil" == Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no> writes:
>> 
>>     Kjetil> that's a hack, and IMHO not worthy of a Python program.
>>     Kjetil> not even Perl has anything like that, AFAIK.
>> 
>> Hm... hacks are not for Python?!  We see every kind of hacks
>> everywhere in Python just like it is in Perl, like (2,) syntax, etc.
>
> Why would you call (2,) syntax a hack?

Because so many people at first think that parens construct
tuples the way square-brackets and curly-brackets construct
lists. When in reality it's commas that construct tuples, but
only in certain contexts because commas are used for about
three other purposes as well.

> If you like, you can call tuple([2]), but I would consider _this_ an
> ugly solution or a "hack".

I would call it the former.

IMO, the only non-ugly, non-hack solution would be to have
another set of delimters that are used as tuple-constructors so
tha the syntax for a literal tuple, a literal list, and a
literal dictionary are consistent.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  AIEEEEE! I am having
                                  at               an UNDULATING EXPERIENCE!
                               visi.com            


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 00:00:54 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:00:54 +1000
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <cgm0nt$epd$2@sea.gmane.org>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<cghslg$lao$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082600433e025140@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkjm5$3lb$2@sea.gmane.org>	<cgkprj$3lb$5@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826075738a8f6ca@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkur1$ehg$2@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed204082608251b2830d8@mail.gmail.com>
	<cgm0nt$epd$2@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082621006f471de1@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:54:22 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Anthony Baxter wrote:
> Sure the interpreter uses __getitem__, but you use it too, right?  I
> mean, you don't need the interpreter to tell you whether instances of
> the following class can act like a dictionary, do you?
> 
>     class Foo:
>        def __getitem__(self, x): pass

Well, actually, no. The presence or absence of __getitem__ "tells" you nothing.
It depends on the implementation.

def __getitem__(self, key): raise AttributeError, '__getitem__'


> No you don't.  Nor do you need to pretend that you're the interpreter,
> and simulate a call to an instance of Foo.  That's because the mere
> presence of def __getitem__ tells you what you need to know.  In this
> way, __getitem__ *does* serve as a declaration (of dictionary semantics)
> [*] to you and anyone reading your code.

No. It. Does. Not. "dictionary semantics" includes a hell of a lot
more than a "__getitem__". And list-like objects _also_ include a
__getitem__.

> * But an implicit declaration of course.   I guess the only way of
> *explicitly* stating that instances of a class can act like dictionaries
> is to have the class inherit from dict or UserDict.

Or use Interfaces. Or put something in the docstring. 


> > class Foo:
> >     def __init__(self):
> >         self.d = dict(ape=False,spidermonkey=True)
> >
> >     def getMonkey(self, key):
> >         return self.d[key]
> >
> >     def __getattr__(self, name):
> >         if name == "__getitem__":
> >             return self.getMonkey
> >         else:
> >             raise AttributeError, name
> >
> > f = Foo()
> > print f['ape']
> > print f['spidermonkey']
> 
> Now hold on just a minute.  If I squint a little, I can still see
> __getitem__ in there somewhere.

As a *string*, buried away in the innards. So I make that string get
loaded from another object, or from a database, or whatever. Your
point is _wrong_. You cannot "declare" anything by simply the presence
or absence of magic double-under methods.

> Though I do believe that you are illustrating a good point; that you can
> mangle your code badly enough that it no longer lends itself to a
> declarative reading.  And then, the only way for your poor reader to
> figure out what the heck it's doing is for him/her to act like the
> interpreter and walk through your code (or run it under the debugger).

Or read the docstring for the class. 

Anthony, giving up.


From roy at panix.com  Mon Aug 16 21:50:23 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:50:23 -0400
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<RGwTc.37687$js3.13758840@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<m34qn2n2du.fsf@g2ctech.com> <41214271_1@127.0.0.1>
	<roy-70FF06.19425116082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<41215667$1_1@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <roy-8A4B0D.21502316082004@reader1.panix.com>

"beliavsky at aol.com" <beliavsky at 127.0.0.1:7501> wrote:

> Ok, here is something short but more realistic and IMO not "ugly".
> 
> You may want to exit a nested loop when testing if a condition involving
> several variables is met, such as searching for a zero of a multivariate
> function. 
> 
> In Python you can print i,j,k and exit() when m == 0, but in a larger program
> you may want more control.
> 
> program xnest_loop
> ! find a Pythagorean triple
> n = 5
> ido: do i=1,n
>    do j=1,n
>       ij = i**2 + j**2
>       do k=1,n
>          m = ij - k**2
>          if (m == 0) exit ido
>       end do
>    end do
> end do ido
> if (m == 0) then
>    print*,i,j,k
> else
>    print*,"no triple"
> end if
> end program xnest_loop

That's easy (and relatively common).  I'd factor out the loop you labled 
"ido:" into a separate function, and have your "exit ido" become a 
return statement.  There's nothing Python-specific about that; I'd use 
the same refactoring strategy in C, Fortran, etc.  I'm a big fan of 
small, easy to understand, functions.


From blaktyger at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 13 00:47:21 2004
From: blaktyger at hotmail.com (Blaktyger)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 21:47:21 -0700
Subject: Displaying images stored as binary in MySQL
Message-ID: <c9e6ac92.0408122047.1e3a4309@posting.google.com>

How can this be done? Images are stored in a LONGBLOB field. When I
try to display them, it prints out the binary data as it is...

Thank you


From fumanchu at amor.org  Sun Aug 22 03:08:13 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 00:08:13 -0700
Subject: J2 decorator grammar
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E24@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Bengt Richter wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 17:22:43 -0700, "Robert Brewer" 
> <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote:
> [...]
> >For that reason (and others), I plan not to promote any form 
> of the word
> >"decorate". We can start having that conversation now if you want. ;)
> >
> What about just using
> 
>     def:
>         deco1
>         deco2('with','parameters')
>         any_expression_returning_a_callable_allowing_a_single_arg_call
>     def foo():
>         pass

Guido mildly rejected it in April:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-April/043933.html

In addition, it would probably be a significant rewrite of the patch
Michael Sparks has written for the current proposal. Candidates which
are not already keywords don't have that problem. ;)

That really should've received its own letter designation on the wiki.
:(


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From ark at acm.org  Mon Aug 23 11:47:20 2004
From: ark at acm.org (Andrew Koenig)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:47:20 GMT
Subject: Dynamic Scoping problem
References: <b8320fb9.0408230713.5f3d2d7a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <ckoWc.502662$Gx4.193756@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>


"Daniel Lemos Itaborai" <itaborai83 at yahoo.com.br> wrote in message
news:b8320fb9.0408230713.5f3d2d7a at posting.google.com...

> I would like to first apologize my question, I just picked up Python
> for a spin 4 days ago(loving it so far). I am having some trouble with
> this...
>
> # myproblem.py
>
> x = 'wrong'
>
> def bluft(x) : x()
>
> def foo():
>         x = 'right'
>         def bar():
>                 global x
>                 print x
>         bluft(bar)
>
> # end myproblem.py
>
>
> Is there a way to enforce scope resolution?

When you write

     def foo():
        x = 'right'
        ...

you are defining a new variable, local to foo, named x.  When you say
"global x" inside bar, you are saying that you do not want that variable;
you want the global one instead.

If you want to assign 'right' to the global x, do it this way:

    def foo():
        global x
        x = 'right'
        def bar():
            print x
        bluft(bar)

That said, I should point out that global variables are usually a bad idea.




From b_r_maria at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 19 01:10:14 2004
From: b_r_maria at hotmail.com (Burgel Rosa Maria Faehndrich)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:10:14 -1000
Subject: Displaying ipa in python.exe
Message-ID: <000501c485aa$cf9e2940$8c42ab80@grimes1>

I am having some trouble properly displaying unicode characters in
python.exe. When I try to run a script containing the following:
 
print ur"\u0288"
 
the window just flashes on and off, without giving the user the
opportunity to input the data that is being asked for.
 
When I try: 
 
print ur"\u0288".encode('utf-8')
 
the window stays on, the user can input the data asked for, and a symbol
is displayed, but it's not the symbol I want to see. No trouble at all
when I run the same script in IDLE.
 
What can I do to fix this? Is there a way of installing additional fonts
in python.exe? Am I using the wrong encoding?
 
Thanks,
 
Maria
 
-------------- next part --------------
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From franbarlow at mail.com  Thu Aug 12 16:17:21 2004
From: franbarlow at mail.com (Fran)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 13:17:21 -0700
Subject: Help understanding Scheme's syntax, procedures and calls
References: <95f168b0.0408120120.31433dc7@posting.google.com>
	<411b577a$0$20523$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk>
	<411b7bdd$0$65612$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <95f168b0.0408121217.2b88ee25@posting.google.com>

Grant Edwards <grante at visi.com> wrote in message news:<411b7bdd$0$65612$a1866201 at newsreader.visi.com>...
> On 2004-08-12, Peter Hickman <peter at semantico.com> wrote:
> 
> > Is this someone's homework by any chance?
> 
> According to the OP, it's part of a final exam.

It's not a final exam (that won't come until October-November) but
from an old exam paper. The girl's English isn't absolutely fluent and
I'm looking for a simple way to explain the expressions and functions.

FRAN


From nehavrce at yahoo.co.in  Mon Aug  9 00:33:48 2004
From: nehavrce at yahoo.co.in (=?iso-8859-1?q?neha=20agrawal?=)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 05:33:48 +0100 (BST)
Subject: help
Message-ID: <20040809043348.94101.qmail@web8203.mail.in.yahoo.com>

hello sir,
              i want to know what r advantages of
using perl over python and tcl for network programming
at tcp/ip layer.
               thanks

________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your life partner online
Go to: http://yahoo.shaadi.com/india-matrimony


From johnfkeeling at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  4 10:10:25 2004
From: johnfkeeling at yahoo.com (John Keeling)
Date: 4 Aug 2004 07:10:25 -0700
Subject: Timing Difference: insert vs. append & reverse
References: <35b736b9.0408020330.53b24ed3@posting.google.com>
	<Xns953983065EEC6duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
	<1a517b5.0408031027.60554dfb@posting.google.com>
	<Xns953B4F5373D3Bduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <35b736b9.0408040610.2398b72d@posting.google.com>

Clarification...

Duncan Booth <duncan.booth at invalid.invalid> wrote in message 
> > True, but an array implementation can easily support amortized 
> > constant-time insert/delete at *either* end (without breaking 
> > constant-time indexing).  The same trick of keeping extra space 
> > at the tail end can work at the head; it requires keeping one 
> > additional offset to show where the occupied cells start.
> > 
> 
> If the OP had said he expected insert and append to be the same speed I 
> might buy that, but he expected insert to be faster than append.

Actually, I never said that ... I said "I would have expected the
insert operation to be faster than the combined append & reverse
operations."  The  object of my test code was to fill out a list in
the reverse order to which I had the list items available.
I would have expected:
tmp2 =[]
for indx in xrange(10000):
    tmp2.insert(0, indx)

to be faster than

tmp1 =[]
for indx in xrange(10000):
    tmp1.append(indx)
tmp1.reverse()

because the insert case does not require the reverse operation. This
would be the case if the insert operated at (approximately) the same
speed as the append, rather then the insert (at position 0) being
16-17 times slower than the append. I guess I somewhat expected it to
be as Bryan Olson stated:"an array implementation can easily support
amortized constant-time insert/delete at *either* end (without
breaking constant-time indexing)."

John


From emschwar at pobox.com  Wed Aug 25 18:46:35 2004
From: emschwar at pobox.com (Eric Schwartz)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:46:35 -0600
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <etoeklu6dkk.fsf@wilson.emschwar>

xah at xahlee.org (Xah Lee) writes:
> Did you know that throughout history there's this thing called cult?

I had no idea.  Good thing you're here to help us out.

-=Eric
-- 
Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million
typewriters, and Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare.
		-- Blair Houghton.


From news2 at mystrobl.de  Sat Aug  7 06:36:08 2004
From: news2 at mystrobl.de (Wolfgang Strobl)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 12:36:08 +0200
Subject: bugs at iter file() ?
References: <web-812553@b1.c.plasa.com><mailman.418.1089867264.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<10fc6kj98mkfef4@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.468.1089947847.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <c4b9h0138ge9bljginf8ljodi1q7khehng@4ax.com>

"Terry Reedy" <tjreedy at udel.edu>:

>"Michael Geary" <Mike at Geary.com> wrote in message
>news:10fc6kj98mkfef4 at corp.supernews.com...
>> Terry Reedy wrote:
>> > To add to what Tim said: From the viewpoint of Windows in
>> > its default mode, there are no remaining lines. ^Z is the end
>> > of file and anything after that is accidental junk filling out the
>> > remainder of the disk block.
>>
>> Just to clarify one point... Windows itself does not have "text" or "binary"
>> files, and it does not treat ^Z in a file in any special way. There are no
>> special characters in files.

>Sorry, but ^Z has meant end-of-file I presume from the first version of
>DOS, which I suspect copied the usage from something previous.  

Sorry, but Michael got it right.  Windows itself does not have 'text' or
'binary' files or open modes. Have a look at CreateFile in the Platform
SDK. You won't find anythink like _TEXT or _BINARY there.

^Z is a carryover from CP/M to DOS, which, like crlf<->lf translation,
got some support in various libraries, for obvious reasons.  It's not
part of the Win32 API.


>Example
>(Microsoft Basic manual, 1989): "When input is redirected [from terminal to
>a file], GW Basic continues to read from this source until a CTRL-Z is
>detected."  

So what? BASICA is an application, just like bash or sendmail.   


>Perhaps the usage has dimmed in non-DOS-based Windows, so that
>I should have said more carefully "from the viewpoint of DOS and perhaps
>DOS-based Windows and partially in modern non-DOS-based Windows ...".
>Still, in Windows XP, open a Command Prompt window and enter
>
>disk:\path> copy con: temp
>abd^Zdef
>
>where ^Z is control-Z and you get a file with 3, not 7 characters.
>
>The Windows version of the Python interactive interpreter exits on ^Z
>because that is, or at least was, standard behavior for interactive non-gui
>DOS/Windows programs

You mean like terminating a program using a single dot on a line is, or
at least was, standard behaviour for interactive non-gui UNIX/Linux
applications? :-)


-- 
Thank you for observing all safety precautions


From ben at benlast.com  Wed Aug 18 08:11:17 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 13:11:17 +0100
Subject: favorite python web development tool?
In-Reply-To: <87d61o26b7.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPKEDBCEAA.ben@benlast.com>

Whilst not in any way whatsoever wishing to prompt or contribute to a
BestWebEnvironment holy war:
I'm currently approaching the end of a sizeable website development in Zope.
I found it to be a very powerful environment which is *extremely* badly
documented and requires a *significant* investment in learning time.  I'm
not new to Python, and that was very useful to me, since I ended up in the
source code of the various Zope components many, many times.  If you *are*
new to Python, I would tentatively suggest that Zope is suitable only if
your first development is not mission critical or subject to tight time
pressure.  I don't regret choosing Zope as far as suitability is concerned,
but I do believe I underestimated how weak the documentation and support is,
and how difficult it would be to work in.

This is, I repeat, merely my subjective opinion.  I have not undertaken a
careful assessment of Zope vis-a-vis other environments, and the criteria by
which I selected it were specific to the particular problem domain and
company.

regards
ben

> -----Original Message-----
> From: python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org
> [mailto:python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org]On Behalf Of
> 5100-46470588-0001 at t-online.de
> Sent: 18 August 2004 09:34
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Re: favorite python web development tool?
>
>
> mike <ng01.spamguard at icewater.org> writes:
>
>
> >
> > i'm fairly new to python, coming from a java servlet / velocity
> > template background.  i'm looking for a good python web development
> > tool, and hope to find some suggestions here.
>
>
> ZOPE
>
> Klaus Schilling
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
______________________________________________________________________


From chrisks at NOSPAMudel.edu  Fri Aug  6 21:38:39 2004
From: chrisks at NOSPAMudel.edu (Chris S.)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 01:38:39 GMT
Subject: Object Reference?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1291.1091810731.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <HQEQc.6327$rM6.4368@trndny03>	<mailman.1259.1091771181.5135.python-list@python.org>	<fDHQc.2929$an.316@trndny08>
	<mailman.1291.1091810731.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <zoWQc.180$Kv2.131@trndny09>

Gandalf wrote:

> Yes, Python figures out when to delete an object, based on its reference 
> count. But Python only counts the references. It keeps track of the 
> number of references for the object. It does not know where the 
> reference is located in memory. The short answer is that you cannot get 
> this information effectively.

The gc module has methods that list an object's referrers and referents. 
Although you're correct in that we're unable to access the total number 
of references since duplicate references are not counted. For instance

import gc
a=[1,2,3]
b=[a,a,a,a]
print gc.get_referrers(a)

would only print out one instance of b, even though it references 'a' 
four times. However, this only seems to apply for direct references, so 
the total number of references can be determined by scanning all 
referrers and counting the duplicate ids.


From brian at nospam.com  Mon Aug 23 12:08:37 2004
From: brian at nospam.com (Brian)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:08:37 GMT
Subject: Bug in string.lstrip?
Message-ID: <9EoWc.58$A8.18@edtnps89>

Hello - has anyone else had trouble with string.lstrip stripping too 
much? Here's what I get (Python 2.3.4):

 >>> import string
 >>> string.lstrip("test/one/two/a.b.c", "test/one/")
'wo/a.b.c'
 >>> string.lstrip("test/one/two/a.b.c", "test/one")
'wo/a.b.c'
 >>> string.lstrip("test/one/two/a.b.c", "test/one/tw")
'a.b.c'
 >>>

Similar things happened with the strip() string method. Am I missing 
something, or should I file a bug report?

Thanks,


Brian


From bj_666 at gmx.net  Sat Aug 28 13:32:35 2004
From: bj_666 at gmx.net (Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 19:32:35 +0200
Subject: cookie
References: <mailman.2410.1093515779.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<oekxem1a.fsf@pobox.com>
	<mailman.2485.1093569409.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<87fz68v1uj.fsf@pobox.com>
	<mailman.2553.1093667904.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.28.17.32.35.956873@gmx.net>

In <mailman.2553.1093667904.5135.python-list at python.org>, Ajay wrote:

> my question is
>>>> import Cookie
>>>> c = Cookie.SimpleCookie()
>>>> c["test"]= "blah"
>>>> print c
> Set-Cookie: test=blah;
>>>> c["test"] = "blah" + "testing"
>>>> print c
> Set-Cookie: test=blahtesting;
>>>> str = "testing blah"
>>>> c["test"] = str
>>>> print c
> Set-Cookie: test="testing blah";
> 
> why does the final print statement have the quotes. Note i haven't put
> str='"testing blah"'. if i had done that i would understand the quotes
> there.

It's no difference if you bind the string to a name or assign it directly,
it's the contents of the string:

>>> import Cookie
>>> c = Cookie.SimpleCookie()
>>> c["test"] = "spaceless"
>>> print c
Set-Cookie: test=spaceless;
>>> c["test"] = "not spaceless"
>>> print c
Set-Cookie: test="not spaceless";

Ciao,
	Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 12:24:03 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 02:24:03 +1000
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
In-Reply-To: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040813092474491d39@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 Aug 2004 07:15:14 -0700, beliavsky at aol.com <beliavsky at aol.com> wrote:
> One of the most commmon reasons programmers cite for not trying Python
> is that indentation determines the program flow -- they think its
> weird. I think programmers who actually try Python adapt quickly and
> do not find the indentation rules to be a problem.
> 
> I wonder if there is a way to remove this initial barrier. Could an
> alternate source form be defined, so that there are matching if-endif
> and for-next constructs instead of significant indentation? The
> alternate source form and the current form would result in exactly the
> same .pyc file.

Luckily, the time machine has already been used to implement this. 
At the end of an 'if' statement, you can put a "#endif". And in a for
loop, you can put a "#endfor" at the end. The '#' is to indicate that it's
not the preferred form.

In all seriousness - people who bounce off Python because of the
indentation are probably just not willing to learn a new language, or
else they're incredibly bigoted towards whatever language (often
C) that they're used to. Their loss.


From ramen at lackingtalent.com  Fri Aug 13 16:04:54 2004
From: ramen at lackingtalent.com (Dave Benjamin)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 20:04:54 -0000
Subject: Flython
Message-ID: <slrnchq8lg.q3d.ramen@lackingtalent.com>

I just want to say, for the record, that if anyone can successfully build a
Python compiler that can produce Flash bytecode, I will personally allow
you to throw *any number of pies* in my face, in as public of a ceremony as
you desire. Furthermore, I will match you 50/50 in the cost of the pies.

Thank you,
Dave

-- 
 .:[ dave benjamin: ramen/[sp00] -:- spoomusic.com -:- ramenfest.com ]:.
        "talking about music is like dancing about architecture."


From daniel at syrinx.net  Wed Aug 18 09:38:48 2004
From: daniel at syrinx.net (Daniel Ellison)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:38:48 -0400
Subject: Flython?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1845.1092810713.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1845.1092810713.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2oh4brFant89U1@uni-berlin.de>

Ben Last wrote:
> Oddly enough, I've just acquired a need (translation: had a requirement
> dropped on me) for a certain amount of generation of Flash from Python.  If
> anyone's got any pointers to code, however non-project-grade, I'd be happy
> to take a hack at cleaning it up and re-releasing it in return for the time
> saved :)
> 
> humbly yours
> ben
> 
> 

I don't know if this will help, but (/somewhere/) I've got Java code I 
wrote a while back which streams MP3s to a Flash client by chopping up 
the MP3 into Flash frames and sending them out one-by-one to the client, 
wrapped by a properly constructed swf file. It illustrates how to put 
together a swf file at the very lowest level.

Let me know if you're interested and I'll put it on my site.

Dan


From cjankowski at hbr-inc.com  Thu Aug 12 15:02:07 2004
From: cjankowski at hbr-inc.com (Chris Jankowski)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 12:02:07 -0700
Subject: Errno 32 Broken pipe
Message-ID: <a1301a8e.0408121102.6ecb2023@posting.google.com>

I am trying to print an image file to a network printer and getting
the following error.  This is a Windows based system, using a network
printer.

Any ideas.
Error Message: cannot print image (exceptions.IOError:[Errno 32]
Broken pipe)

**************************************************************
Code:
#! /usr/local/bin/python
#
# The Python Imaging Library.
# $Id: //modules/pil/Scripts/pilprint.py#2 $
#
# print image files to postscript printer
#
# History:
# 0.1   96-04-20 fl     Created
# 0.2a1 96-10-04 fl     Use draft mode when converting.
#

VERSION = "pilprint 0.2a1/96-10-04"

import Image
import PSDraw

letter = ( 1.0*72, 1.0*72, 7.5*72, 10.0*72 )

def description(file, image):
    import os
    title = os.path.splitext(os.path.split(file)[1])[0]
    format = " (%dx%d "
    if image.format:
        format = " (" + image.format + " %dx%d "
    return title + format % image.size + image.mode + ")"

import getopt, os, sys

if len(sys.argv) == 1:
    print "PIL Print 0.2a1/96-10-04 -- print image files"
    print "Usage: pilprint files..."
    print "Options:"
    print "  -c            colour printer (default is monochrome)"
    print "  -p            print via lpr (default is stdout)"
    print "  -P <printer>  same as -p but use given printer"
    sys.exit(1)

try:
    opt, argv = getopt.getopt(sys.argv[1:], "cdpP:")
except getopt.error, v:
    print v
    sys.exit(1)

printer = None # print to stdout
monochrome = 1 # reduce file size for most common case

for o, a in opt:
    if o == "-d":
        # debug: show available drivers
        Image.import_plugins()
        print Image.ID
        sys.exit(1)
    elif o == "-c":
        # colour printer
        monochrome = 0
    elif o == "-p":
        # default printer channel
        printer = "lpr"
    elif o == "-P":
        # printer channel
        printer = "lpr -P%s" % v

for file in argv:
    try:

        im = Image.open(file)

        title = description(file, im)

        if monochrome and im.mode not in ["1", "L"]:
            im.draft("L", im.size)
            im = im.convert("L")

        if printer:
            fp = win32pipe.popen(printer, "w")
        else:
            fp = sys.stdout

        ps = PSDraw.PSDraw(fp)

        ps.begin_document()
        ps.setfont("Helvetica-Narrow-Bold", 18)
        ps.text((letter[0], letter[3]+24), title)
        ps.setfont("Helvetica-Narrow-Bold", 8)
        ps.text((letter[0], letter[1]-30), VERSION)
        ps.image(letter, im)
        ps.end_document()

    except:
        print "cannot print image",
        print "(%s:%s)" % (sys.exc_type, sys.exc_value)
****************************************************************
Thanks

Chris J.


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 23:19:20 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:19:20 +1000
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204081920191740e96d@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:16:41 GMT, Paul McGuire
<ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> wrote:
> We've all done our share of pitching and whining, but we need to settle on
> *one* option for Guido to consider.

Also note that Python 2.4a3 is currently targetted at September 2. So there
_is_ a time constraint.

This is 4 weeks after a2. I considered the impact that this would have on the
alternate decorators proposals, and decided that it didn't matter - the threads
here and on python-dev have more or less hit a steady-state.


From miko at nono.nevernever.net  Sat Aug 21 11:36:31 2004
From: miko at nono.nevernever.net (Miko)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 15:36:31 -0000
Subject: discover redirected url
References: <10ieq4dscjutmb7@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <10ieqvc2b8va6c3@corp.supernews.com>

i see it is

import urllib
urlf = urllib.urlopen("http://tinyurl.com/3apbd")
print urlf.geturl()




From mdrop1 at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 30 04:00:13 2004
From: mdrop1 at yahoo.com (Message Drop Box)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 01:00:13 -0700
Subject: The voodoo of zip(*someList)
Message-ID: <c60e7f28.0408300000.657118b1@posting.google.com>

All,

How (and why) does zip(*someList) work? 

>>> s = [[1, 2, 3], ['one', 'two', 'three'], ['I', 'II', 'III']]
>>> zip(*s)
[(1, 'one', 'I'), (2, 'two', 'II'), (3, 'three', 'III')]

I've never seen the star '*' outside of function/method definitions
and I've looked in the Python documentation without success. This
syntax is voodoo to me at the moment. I'm stumped.

Thanks,
Stuart


From zathras at thwackety.com  Sun Aug 22 11:34:55 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 16:34:55 +0100
Subject: [PATCH] RE: J2 decorator grammar
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408221104090.22879-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>
	<mailman.2147.1093173853.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4128ac0f$0$79299$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>
Message-ID: <4128c1ea$0$81159$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>

Michael Sparks wrote:
> Anthony Baxter wrote:
...
>> Well, in the comments for that patch, I listed all of the files changed
>> by the @syntax - that at least gives you a 'to-do list' to work through.

This was extremely useful BTW - thanks !

>> Once you've got what you think is the complete set, create a patch and
>> post it to SF.
> 
> Will do.

The new patch can be found here:

   * http://www.python.org/sf/1013835

Issues with this patch are:
   * Uses "decorate" keyword rather than "using" (personal preference based
     on reading everyone's arguments in favour of it, and also based on
     googling for existing usage of alternatives...).
   * Doesn't support suggested short form
   * Is a patch against 2.4a2 not CVS head.
   * A bunch of tests are skipped on my machine so I haven't yet checked
     those for @pie decorators.

As a result I'll be posting at least one update to this patch.

It does however pass all the tests, include docs, and all the bits I think
should've be updated are updated. (see the patch page above for details)

Regards,


Michael.



From fumanchu at amor.org  Sun Aug 22 14:07:00 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:07:00 -0700
Subject: On consensus decision-making (was Re: Alternative
	decoratorsyntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WEDONE?)
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E29@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Ville Vainio wrote:
> So, to proceed building community consensus for J2, the community
> needs to be asked whether they would block J2 (possibly with the
> "using" keyword) in favor of another non- at pie syntax?

Yes, but NOT YET. Wait for the proposal draft which I promise will be
posted to c.l.p. by 9:00 A.M. GMT -08:00 (PST) Monday morning. Tell me
concerns you (anyone) has with any part of it. Give me a small amount of
time to rewrite. Read the rewrites. Comment. Read the final. Sign it for
or against at that point.

That's the best process, at this stage, for this proposal. If someone
else wants to do the same for C1, I don't think Guido would be opposed
to it--but someone has to step up and do the work, both the proposal and
more importantly an implementation.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 12 08:51:47 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:51:47 -0400
Subject: Print command
In-Reply-To: <2nv6roF54f7iU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <mailman.1511.1092239223.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<WosSc.21396$Jp6.6141@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<2nv6roF54f7iU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <cvmdnbvUcbh--obcRVn-uw@powergate.ca>


"Russell Blau" <russblau at hotmail.com> wrote in message
 > Actually, I don't know the meaning of  ``.
 > On some languages, it means "evaluate": Is it the same meaning in
 > Python?

Why ask when you can do? :

 >>> `name`
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
NameError: name 'name' is not defined
 >>> name = 2
 >>> `name`
'2'



From stephan.diehl at gmx.net  Tue Aug 17 04:33:08 2004
From: stephan.diehl at gmx.net (Stephan Diehl)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:33:08 +0200
Subject: apache configuration tool
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.17.08.33.08.85632@gmx.net>

Is there something similar to the PERL
Apache::Admin::Config module
out there that is written in Python?

Stephan


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Tue Aug 17 16:25:51 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 16:25:51 -0400
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
References: <20040814153534.8AC171E4007@bag.python.org>
	<e69d3ed204081706284b20ea8d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cft1h1$8ru$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<mailman.1804.1092754567.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cftpkf$acj$1@panix1.panix.com>

In article <mailman.1804.1092754567.5135.python-list at python.org>,
Anthony Baxter  <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>I know that. When writing something as obviously taking the piss as my
>comment, I don't think it's necessarily to include a smiley - that's
>for the people who don't get humour, like Americans.

No, no, no, Americans get humor just fine -- what they don't get is
irony.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From pwilkinson at videotron.ca  Mon Aug  9 10:31:33 2004
From: pwilkinson at videotron.ca (Peter Wilkinson)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 10:31:33 -0400
Subject: unicode to ascii converting
In-Reply-To: <cf23jb$b8k$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>
References: <mailman.1296.1091813051.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1091815856.527127@news.commspeed.net>
	<mailman.1301.1091816463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<s9z8ycs9l07.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>
	<mailman.1309.1091820963.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cf223m$7ha$1@news-reader4.wanadoo.fr>
	<cf23jb$b8k$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040809101700.01b60e58@pop.videotron.ca>

Thanks for the help,

I have got it working the problem was that I was not reading into the 
string as unicode.

Peter

At 04:22 AM 8/7/2004, Michel Claveau - abstraction m?ta-galactique non wrote:
>Sorry !
>
>The COMPLETE script is :
>
>         # -*- coding: cp1252 -*-
>         aa = u"?"
>         aa.encode("ascii","ignore")
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



From fredrik at pythonware.com  Wed Aug 11 18:27:12 2004
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 00:27:12 +0200
Subject: PEP-0318
References: <41122FC2.1080608@interlink.com.au><mailman.1251.1091764482.5135.python-list@python.org><4114152f@nntp.zianet.com>	<aIOdnRybBucMsIncRVn-gA@comcast.com><4116bc20$1@nntp.zianet.com><mailman.1369.1092015284.5135.python-list@python.org><c8neh0t41km1h79ufo4vkrhh78dt27vlok@4ax.com><6NCdncg4ssq28orcRVn-uQ@powergate.ca><fkteh0pvalomnrm7tk8ial4sgjaj9jjkj8@4ax.com>	<411a5cee$1@nntp.zianet.com><mailman.1518.1092247596.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<411a9a7f$1@nntp.zianet.com>
Message-ID: <cfe6cp$ni7$1@sea.gmane.org>

Mark Bottjer wrote:

>> calling a function with an argument?  that's a pretty common
>> operation, if you're asking me
>
> Indeed it is. And that fact bears on this conversion how?

that's what a decorator does, of course.  what part of your own
post did you not understand?

</F> 





From davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu  Wed Aug 25 21:42:57 2004
From: davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu (David Pokorny)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 18:42:57 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <yfGdnfXRRdoV3bDcRVn-jg@lmi.net>

Vote For.

David




From jepler at unpythonic.net  Sat Aug 21 17:13:01 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:13:01 -0500
Subject: zipfile module: problems with filename having non ascii
	characters
In-Reply-To: <4127a6d7$0$4090$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be>
References: <4127a6d7$0$4090$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be>
Message-ID: <20040821211301.GD1458@unpythonic.net>

Zip files don't have a way to define the encoding of filenames---names
are just byte strings, and different utilities may interpret them in
different ways.  The only thing that seems to be defined is that '/' is
the directory separator, and possibly that the filename can't contain
'\0'.

You can probably find the encoding that winzip uses with a little
trial-and-error, and convert your filenames in your encoding to
filenames in that encoding.  This may depend on the language or region
of the installed Windows, though.

Jeff
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From http  Sat Aug 21 23:35:55 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 20:35:55 -0700
Subject: Getting benifits of database transactions in an OO way?
References: <2oq8pmFdd2nfU1@uni-berlin.de> <7xk6vsklxm.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<2oqb54Fdj12nU1@uni-berlin.de> <7xu0uwlztw.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<2oqhlkFdi80eU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <7xfz6fhmjo.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Leif K-Brooks <eurleif at ecritters.biz> writes:
> But then multiple row classes would have to create their own
> connections, which would be bad for performance:
> 
> import people
> import companies
> people_transaction = people.begin_transaction()
> companies_transaction = companies.begin_transaction()

You wouldn't do it that way.  

> I think I'll just require users of modules which handle data to commit
> on their own. Not ideal, but it seems to be the best possible.

You could take a look at how javabeans does it.


From ramraviusa at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 28 08:07:30 2004
From: ramraviusa at hotmail.com (Ram Ravi)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:07:30 GMT
Subject: code examples for Rick Hightower book "Python programming with Java
	Classes
Message-ID: <6A_Xc.196740$8_6.121566@attbi_s04>

I would like to get the SourceCode for Rick Hightower  book "Python
programming with Java Classes" (jython book).

I went to rickhightower.com and got Connection refused message. Does
somebody have the source code from earlier postings?
Or a URL where it is available?


Thanks





From max at alcyone.com  Mon Aug 23 20:25:36 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:25:36 -0700
Subject: Getting at the bits of a 32-bit integer
References: <85b54e91.0408231552.75f85727@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.2250.1093306507.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <412A8B00.A81AA015@alcyone.com>

Phil Frost wrote:

> However, doing this sort of thing is rather nonpythonic. Python
> abstracts the platform's representation of an integer. Integers in
> Python arn't always 32 bits; they are actually the size of C's 'long'
> type, which is to say you can find the size by looking at sys.maxint,
> but it's more trouble than it's worth. You will also encounter
> problems
> if you change the highest bit:
> 
> >>> 10 ^ (1 << 31)
> __main__:1: FutureWarning: x<<y losing bits or changing sign will return
> a long in Python 2.4 and up
> -2147483638
> 
> Note that the error message isn't even accurate. This is probably a
> good
> indication that this isn't a common use case!
> 
> So, short story: use a bool (True/False)

So use a Python long instead!  That way the size of the Python int is
irrelevant.

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ It should therefore be difficult in a republic to declare war; but
    not to make peace. -- John Story


From wweston at att.net  Tue Aug 24 19:52:04 2004
From: wweston at att.net (wes weston)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:52:04 GMT
Subject: Newbie:  Downloading a pushed file
In-Reply-To: <Y3KWc.8$oZ6.3222@news.uswest.net>
References: <Y3KWc.8$oZ6.3222@news.uswest.net>
Message-ID: <EwQWc.511307$Gx4.112380@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>

Josh wrote:
> First, I'm new at this.
> 
> Next, my question:  I'm trying to write a script that downloads 
> requested files from a website.
> 
> The site works, I think, as follows:
>  1:  Give the site a URL
>  2:  Site comes back with a 'waiting' message, then after some time 
> returns a bunch of download URL's
>  3:  If you open a window with the new download url _in the same browser 
> session_ then you get a new window which says things like 'processing' 
> for a while, and then pushes you a file, for lack of a better word.  
> It's sort of like when you go to sourceforge and click a download 
> mirror, and then after a few seconds you get a window pop up asking to 
> save the file.
> 
> Now, so far I've managed, in an ugly manner I am sure, to get the 
> initial page, parse the download URL's, and I did this having pything 
> use an IE browser, as described in:
> http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/06/13/ie_automation.html
> 
> My problem is when I get to the download page, how do I tell ie to go 
> ahead and save the file it gets pushed?
> 
> Another question would be how do I do it without IE .. I assume if I 
> keep the socket open and send the site some header, perhaps 
> HTTP_REFERER, then it will let me move on to the download pages, but I 
> havent even figured out how to re-read the socket after the initial page 
> refreshes (every re-read comes up blank, even though I know the page 
> should have sent me new data)
> 
> Sorry for my probably poorly worded descriptions, and thanks for any help.
> 
>   -Josh

-Josh
    View the page source. Maybe it will show a url or how to
make one to get your files. Post the url here if you don't
get where you are going.
wes



From tor.iver.wilhelmsen at broadpark.no  Mon Aug 30 12:27:18 2004
From: tor.iver.wilhelmsen at broadpark.no (Tor Iver Wilhelmsen [TeamB])
Date: 30 Aug 2004 18:27:18 +0200
Subject: PHP Documentation
References: <4133124f$0$281$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>
Message-ID: <u8ybwfv6h.fsf@broadpark.no>

"Guyon Mor?e" <gumuz at NO_looze_SPAM.net> writes:

> any user can comment on any page in the docs. this results in a lot of
> clarifications and examples for the subjects at hand.
> 
> is it an idea to implement this in the python docs?

Zope already does this as well.


From rnd at onego.ru  Tue Aug 17 11:59:58 2004
From: rnd at onego.ru (Roman Suzi)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:59:58 +0400 (MSD)
Subject: Mind.py
In-Reply-To: <41220b22@news.victoria.tc.ca>
References: <41220b22@news.victoria.tc.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408171957410.10301@suzi.com.onego.ru>


Now it has persistant Memory. Hope it's not a crime ;-)

-><------------------------------------------------------------------

#!/usr/bin/python
# -*- mode: python -*-
# $Id: aLife.py,v 1.1 2004/08/17 15:58:04 rnd Exp $

"""
aLife() (artificial life) is the Robot AI Mind main loop.
"""

import sys, time, os, shelve
from Security import Security
from Sensorium import Sensorium
from Emotion import Emotion
from Think import Think
from Volition import Volition
from Motorium import Motorium
from Voice import Voice

class Mind:
    pass

def TabulaRasa():
   ms = shelve.open("mind", "c")
   ms['mind'] = Mind()
   ms.close()

def RestoreMemory():
   return shelve.open("mind", "c")['mind']

def SaveMemory(m):
    stored = shelve.open("mind", "c")
    stored['mind'] = m
    stored.close()

rsvp = 1000

def aLife():  # ATM 27oct2002 or your ID & date.
    try:
       m = RestoreMemory()
       Security(m)  # For human control and operation of the AI.
       Sensorium(m) # Audition other human-robot input senses.
       Emotion(m)   # Quasi-physiological influence upon thought.
       Think(m)     # Syntax and vocabulary of natural languages.
       Volition(m)  # Contemplative selection of motor options.
       Motorium(m)  # Robotic activation of motor initiatives.
    except:
        raise
        sys.exit(0)
    rjc = int((sys.argv[1:2] or ['0'])[0])
    # If the AI has not met with misadventure,
    fyi = "aLife: calling itself t = %s rejuvenations = %i" % (time.strftime("%Y.%m.%d %H:%H:%S"), rjc)
    print fyi # Display the Voice:brain "For Your Information".
    Voice(m)
    time.sleep(rsvp/1000) # End of quasi-loop time-delay of rsvp-value milliseconds.
    sys.argv[1] = str(rjc + 1)
    SaveMemory(m)
    os.execv(sys.argv[0], sys.argv) # Call aLife again.
# End of one pass through the aLife Mind that repeats itself.

if __name__ == "__main__":
   if sys.argv[1] == '0':
       print "aLife: mind is born"
       TabulaRasa()
   aLife()

# End of aLife.py


From jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu  Wed Aug 11 09:32:47 2004
From: jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu (John Hunter)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:32:47 -0500
Subject: IronPython-0.6 is now available!
In-Reply-To: <cfbbbc$8mh$1@sea.gmane.org> ("Terry Reedy"'s message of "Tue,
	10 Aug 2004 16:31:39 -0400")
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1398.1092065544.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<278de0e.0408100515.5fd3740c@posting.google.com>
	<cfbbbc$8mh$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <m23c2t241s.fsf@mother.paradise.lost>

>>>>> "Terry" == Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> writes:

    Terry> In any case, it is standard to do time-consuming numerical
    Terry> computation in Python with the quasi-standard numerical
    Terry> extensions.  Unless and until the these are ported to .NET,
    Terry> such programs will not run.  Even when they do, there is no
    Terry> reason to think that they will be significantly faster.

As someone with *no* experience with .NET but with some python
extension code I may one day find myself trying to port to IronPython,
I wonder: does anyone have an idea of what is involved in porting a
python extension module to IronPython / .NET.  Any thoughts on how the
use of extension building code interacts with this, eg boost::python,
pycxx or SWIG?

Thanks, John Hunter


From redneck at lowtech.net  Mon Aug  9 16:53:56 2004
From: redneck at lowtech.net (Robert)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:53:56 GMT
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
	<urrku1-ko3.ln1@stargate.solsys.priv>
Message-ID: <EvRRc.14487$cK.6386@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>

Detlev Offenbach wrote:

> 
> Give "eric3" a try (http://www.die-offenbachs.de/detlev/eric3.html).
> It is a complete Python IDE using Qt-Designer for GUI development and
> Qt-Linguist for translating the GUI.
> 
> Detlev

I'll second that! Very well done.

Wish I could program like that!
-- 
Robert - slackware



From Brian.Inglis at SystematicSW.Invalid  Tue Aug 31 00:23:11 2004
From: Brian.Inglis at SystematicSW.Invalid (Brian Inglis)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 04:23:11 GMT
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4PGdnfsOfdDPi63cRVn-tA@speakeasy.net>
	<slrncj1745.t5q.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<41337FC9.8070902@hotmail.com>
	<slrncj7hhh.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
Message-ID: <p7v7j0plcfbden593l1irfprmfkp4d3k51@4ax.com>

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 01:12:55 +0000 (UTC) in alt.folklore.computers,
Andre Majorel <amajorel at teezer.fr> wrote:

>On 2004-08-30, Antony Sequeira <usemyfullname at hotmail.com> wrote:

>> Windows (MS) is not 'Unixism'?
>
>If by unixism, you mean any operating system that has a
>hierarchical filesystem and byte stream files, yes. But that
>would include quite a few other non-Unix operating systems,
>including Mac OS 9, Prologue and probably everything else this
>side of CP/M (DOS 1.x shall be deemed to be CP/M).

DOS 2.x+ shall be deemed to be CP/M+! 

-- 
Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Brian.Inglis at CSi.com 	(Brian[dot]Inglis{at}SystematicSW[dot]ab[dot]ca)
    fake address		use address above to reply


From sjdevnull at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  9 10:31:57 2004
From: sjdevnull at yahoo.com (G. S. Hayes)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 07:31:57 -0700
Subject: ThreadingTCPServer, asyncore and Client-to-Client communication
References: <81efeef2.0408072015.60addf38@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <96c2e938.0408090631.3b8744a3@posting.google.com>

dustin at jabberdust.com (Dustin) wrote in message news:<81efeef2.0408072015.60addf38 at posting.google.com>...
> I've been trying to create a "byte streaming server", it's basically a
> chat server, but I'd like to use it for transfering large amounts of
> data between two connected clients.  Sounds simple enough, but I'm
> having a difficult time implementing it.

investigate os.select; you don't even need multiple threads for this operation.


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Sun Aug 22 13:52:26 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 17:52:26 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WE
	DONE?
References: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<t5idnRg0lMA7B7XcRVn-qA@comcast.com>
	<ifchi0hqmhpag5umuukest5v4f2e73hjud@4ax.com>
	<du7r7pzgmsw.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>
Message-ID: <02mhi0prul0tnmt8jpcqhiiov2nvru6ctf@4ax.com>

On 22 Aug 2004 19:27:59 +0300, Ville Vainio <ville at spammers.com>
wrote:

>>>>>> "Arthur" == Arthur  <ajsiegel at optonline.com> writes:
>
>    Arthur> It seems ironic to me that in a group devoted to an
>    Arthur> appreciation of Python, and its advocacy - it is often
>    Arthur> those who reject the notion that the language has the
>    Arthur> kinds of glaring weaknesses that require some fundamental
>    Arthur> change ot it, that form the opposition to an
>    Arthur> "establishment" that has become convinced quite otherwise.
>
>If you don't want improvements to the language, don't download the new
>version. Keep on writing the code in the old style, and run foreign
>code through a preprocessor that e.g. converts decorators to the old
>non-syntax style.

>If you really want a stagnant, non-evolving language, there are many
>to choose from. I guess Python could also be forked to a special
>ZombiePython edition, where heresy like a+=4 and list comprehensions
>are unheard of.

This reaction to my remarks is predictable.

Ascribing to those remarks an extremism they do not intend.  And then
attacking that extreme position.

Why did new style classes and attendant matters - the most sweeping
re-architecture of the language probably since its inception - make it
into the language without a near peep of controversy? And integer
division cause an uproar?

To me, the first seems evolutionary and truly seems to be Guido's
inner gyroscope at work  The second made its way to the top of the
agenda in round-about ways, and seemed a near arbitrary point of
focus.

Since I've been around, the controversial issues are the ones that
deserved their controversy -  Python folks being a reasonable and
intelligent lot.

Art 
 
>
>    Arthur> I sometimes wish those folks were more candid about its
>    Arthur> deficiencies before I started my study of it back in 1.5.2
>    Arthur> days.
>
>If Python was still like 1.5.2, 90% of the current community would be
>running Ruby (assuming it would have evolved while Python had
>stagnated).



From mo.dor at fly.srk.fer.hr  Tue Aug  3 03:39:46 2004
From: mo.dor at fly.srk.fer.hr (Zeljko Vrba)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 07:39:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: advice for perl expert wanting to learn python
Message-ID: <slrncguga2.fcp.mordor@fly.srk.fer.hr>

Now, why would I like to learn Python: because of IronPython port to CLR.
Perl port to CLR doesn't seem to be coming soon. First Perl6 for Parrot has
to be written, and then other backends..

What's the easiest way of learning python knowing perl? Is there somewhere
a 'how-to' cookbook with parallel examples of frequent idioms in perl and
python?

And most important thing, how does Python deal with database connectivity?
Is there a single API (akin to DBI) for connecting to databases?

How does Python support the following databases:
- Oracle
- Postgres
- MySQL
- SQLServer (maybe using freetds?)
- ODBC connectivity (connecting to MS Access)



From lbates at swamisoft.com  Mon Aug 30 11:13:44 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:13:44 -0500
Subject: why does this fail on python 2.2?
References: <mailman.2611.1093878644.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <faKdnbHxJfK-2a7cRVn-gQ@comcast.com>

Because __slots__ and __new__ were added in 2.3.

Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.

"John Hunter" <jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:mailman.2611.1093878644.5135.python-list at python.org...
>
> I'm trying to understand why some code from a module I'm using is
> failing on 2.3 (sic) but working on 2.3.  Here is the minimal example that
> replicates the problem
>
> class Results(object):
>     __slots__ = ( "__doinit" )
>     def __new__(cls):
>         retobj = object.__new__(cls)
>         retobj.__doinit = True
>         return retobj
>
> x = Results()
>
> On python2.2, this fails with
>
> mother:~/tmp> python2.2 test.py
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "test.py", line 8, in ?
>     x = Results()
>   File "test.py", line 5, in __new__
>     retobj.__doinit = True
> AttributeError: 'Results' object has no attribute '_Results__doinit'




From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Sun Aug 15 17:41:26 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 14:41:26 -0700
Subject: Python secure?
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

Calvin wrote:
> Sorry I should have said I'm new to programming let alone Python. I
> wish to know whether Python is secure as an exe for a commercial
> product.

Yes.  Anyone who recovers your "code" and/or uses it will be in
violation of copyright and several other laws.  That is legal
protection no matter what languages or combination of languages
you use.

Roger 




From davidf at sjsoft.com  Fri Aug  6 04:34:38 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 10:34:38 +0200
Subject: Sending Mail via Extended MAPI
In-Reply-To: <87pt69uz53.fsf@pobox.com>
References: <cedl93$puv$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net> <87llh18dqt.fsf@pobox.com>
	<cel7e7$9q4$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net> <87pt69uz53.fsf@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <cevfqu$nd7$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

John J. Lee wrote:
> David Fraser <davidf at sjsoft.com> writes:
> 
>>John J. Lee wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>>>IIRC, there's a commercial COM server that wraps up Extended MAPI and
>>>exposes a clone of the Simple MAPI interface.
>>
>>I think this must be Outlook Redemption ...
> 
> Yeah, that rings a bell.  From the name, I guess I misremeber the API
> it exposes, though...
> 
>>anyway we'll try and see
>>if we can implement what we need without them :-)
> 
> Rather you than me :-)
> 
> John

We have now discovered that pywin32 contains a win32com.mapi class which 
wraps extended MAPI! That plus some finding C++ code that actually 
manages to send mail via extended MAPI and we're nearly there ...

Just need to work out how to construct a PyADRLIST for the 
PyIAddrBook.ResolveName function from that module which isn't clear from 
the docs or the source or anywhere else ... but that looks like the last 
hurdle. When its done we'll write it up as a Cookbook item or something

Cheers
David


From dharding at gmail.com  Wed Aug 18 22:53:31 2004
From: dharding at gmail.com (Daniel Harding)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 19:53:31 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <7e8fc64.0408181853.2d9bebf8@posting.google.com>

"Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<jQHUc.1529$2L3.505 at newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....

25 here.  Started programming at 13 with HyperCard on a Mac SE.  Been
through many languages since then and though the bulk of my employment
is currently in C++, I use Python whenever I can for side projects and
personal programming ever since I started digging into it about a year
and a half ago.


From fperez528 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  6 14:19:35 2004
From: fperez528 at yahoo.com (Fernando Perez)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 12:19:35 -0600
Subject: Plotting histograms, scatter plots in Python
References: <d1f3d1d3.0408061018.137b600f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cf0i3o$r3t$1@peabody.colorado.edu>

Dr. Colombes wrote:

> What is the easiest way to generate some plots and graphs in Python ?
> 
> Specifically interested in simple histograms and scatter plots with
> circles and regression lines.

google('matplotlib')
google('gnuplot.py')

hth,

f


From jerf at jerf.org  Tue Aug 31 13:49:30 2004
From: jerf at jerf.org (Jeremy Bowers)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:49:30 GMT
Subject: Beginners question.
References: <ch2c6b$5ap$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.31.13.49.36.117914@jerf.org>

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 18:23:23 +0100, Player wrote:

> mylist = [1, 2, ["three", "four"], "five"]
> for item in mylist:
>     if item == type(list):
>         myitem = len(item)
>         print myitem
>     else:
>          print item

General tip: Don't forget how much fun the interpreter is:

Python 2.3.4 (#1, Jun  8 2004, 17:41:43) 
[GCC 3.3.3 20040217 (Gentoo Linux 3.3.3, propolice-3.3-7)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> item = ["three", "four"] # since this is the one we wonder about
>>> item == type(list)
False
>>> # Uh-oh, there's the problem, let's see if we can get a clue:
... 
>>> item
['three', 'four']
>>> type(list)
<type 'type'>
>>> # Clearly, there's something wrong here; try Russell's solution:
... 
>>> type(item)
<type 'list'>
>>> list
<type 'list'>
>>> # Ah ha!
... 
>>> 



From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Mon Aug 23 11:04:25 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:04:25 GMT
Subject: J2 paper 0.2.1
References: <mailman.2201.1093271860.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ZHnWc.9733$Jn5.7693@fe1.texas.rr.com>

"Robert Brewer" <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote in message
news:mailman.2201.1093271860.5135.python-list at python.org...
Colin J. Williams wrote:
> One nit picking comment on Robert Brewer's document: An
> annotation is a
> transformation of a function, as a change to the flow of control is.

I'd like someone to analyze that further. "Transform", like the word
"change", can mean almost anything in English. However, I find the use
of the term in programs to generally mean either coerce/convert/cast
between types, or some other mechanism whereby one object is supplied,
and another object returned. That is, "transform" affects Being/"is" as
opposed to Attribute/"has".



(sorry about the double post - damned newsreader!)

I saw this earlier and meant to comment on it.  How does annotating a
function transform it?  Does adding a docstring or ascribing authorship
change the function's behavior or logic?  Do you mean "annotation" in the
Java or C# sense?  If so, I think you are correct.  But I chalk this up to
those languages' poor use of the term "annotation."  I think Robert is using
"annotation" in the more general conversational sense.

If you interpret "transform" to mean "change in any way," well then it is
hardly a meaningful term to use for categorizing types of changes.  I read
Robert's use of "transform" to mean specifically "change the
logic/behavior/interface", whereas "annotation" refers to commentary,
version, copyright, or other notational attributes.  (I could contrive a
very narrow example, in which code logic may branch depending upon the value
of __version__, but this is a stretch.  More likely, code in the *caller*
may change depending on __version__, but then this would be a transformation
of the *caller*.)

I think Robert cites a useful test.  Things like synchronize, memoize,
staticmethod all extend the behavior of the embedded function, thereby
transforming it to lock, cache results, or change interface, *AND* a
different object is returned.

However, annotations such as author, version, and copyright merely add
attributes to the function, but do not need to return a new object.

I would not include preconditions or postconditions or argument type
checking into either of these groups by the way - while they do change
behavior (by adding checking code), I think they are their own special case
of "transform", that are specifically oriented to defining assertions to be
met (without cluttering the code of the embedded function).  Maybe instead
of "transformational" they could be called "assertional."

My $0.02,
-- Paul




From flupke at nonexistingdomain.com  Tue Aug 10 12:07:56 2004
From: flupke at nonexistingdomain.com (flupke)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:07:56 GMT
Subject: wxPython & redirecting stderr
Message-ID: <wp6Sc.209539$Ur.10556482@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

Hi,

i'm developing an app in wxPython but when i have an error in the
wxPython code i've written, the app starts, an extra windows is
opened where the error messages are print and then it closes
again. Off course, this is to fast for the human eye to read :)
How can i avoid this and have the wxPython messages arrive at the
console just like the "normal" python error messages?

Thanks,
Benedict




From ykingma at accessforall.nl  Sat Aug 21 13:37:12 2004
From: ykingma at accessforall.nl (Ype Kingma)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 19:37:12 +0200
Subject: Jython and super_reload?
References: <slrnci73a9.nj3.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
	<412458a6$0$45379$e4fe514c@dreader19.news.xs4all.nl>
	<slrnci9j4f.q6f.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
Message-ID: <41278848$0$88491$e4fe514c@dreader15.news.xs4all.nl>

Dave Benjamin wrote:

> In article <412458a6$0$45379$e4fe514c at dreader19.news.xs4all.nl>, Ype
Kingma wrote:
>> 
>> This works for classes: 
>> 
>> http://www.jython.org/docs/jreload.html
>> 
>> You can unload a module in Jython by removing it from sys.modules,
>> and (off course) by removing all other references to it.
>> 
>> To be sure about what happens you can tell the JVM to be verbose
>> about garbage collection of Java classes, and explicitly call
>> java.lang.System.gc() in some test scripts.
> 
> Thanks for the link and the comments, but I don't think this is quite what
> I'm trying to do here. I'm not trying to reload Java classes, I'm trying
to
> reload Python modules such that any instances of the old version of that
> module's classes get updated to use the new methods. For instance:
> 
> mymod.py
> --------
> class A:
>     def test(self):
>         print 'hello'
> 
> app
> ---
> import mymod
> a = A()
> a.test()
> (output: 'hello')
> 
> mymod.py
> --------
> class A:
>     def test(self):
>         print 'goodbye'
> 
> app
> ---
> reload(mymod)
> a.test()
> (output: still 'hello')
> 
> # This is what I've been unable to accomplish:
> from magic import super_reload
> super_reload(mymod)
> a.test()
> (output: 'goodbye')
> 
> Does that make sense? The end result is that I want to be able to modify
> classes in a running application and have this affect all existing class
> instances. This is important because I am working in an application server

I don't think the Python language supports it.
One could replace the module in sys.modules, but that does not remove the
reference to the old module and its contents in existing instances.

> environment where restarts are costly and time-consuming, and instances
are
> often kept in user sessions. Currently, any changes to a class require
that
> the session be reinitialized (ie. you have to log out and log back in),
> which makes incremental testing and development awkward. 

You might solve the problem by convincing the users to reinstantiate their
classes after replacing the module in sys.modules.

Replacing the Python class of a Python instance is tricky (to say the least)
because of Python's dynamic nature. And even without Python dynamics one
can get into strange situations.

When you convince the users to reinstantiate their classes,
my guess is that sooner rather than later some of your users will manage
to bring their sessions into an irreproducable (error) state because they
forgot to replace some instances.

In a Java JVM one can have multiple fully independent Jython
system states by using different Java class loaders. This is safe, but it
costs some memory. This has been done by others, please check the
jython-user and jython-dev archives.

Good luck,
Ype



From max at alcyone.com  Mon Aug  9 14:10:06 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 11:10:06 -0700
Subject: Question
References: <mailman.1406.1092074658.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4117BDFE.8FC079D4@alcyone.com>

Dag Hansteen wrote:

> How do I this ? I have a string with a such expression and I want to
> return the answer in a variable.

Use eval, but use it wisely.

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative.
    -- Oscar Wilde


From bokr at oz.net  Thu Aug 12 01:26:20 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 05:26:20 GMT
Subject: Static method object not callable
References: <CceSc.10654$nx2.3040@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<mailman.1476.1092189482.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<bGfSc.10747$nx2.363@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<cfc8fo$unk$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<DhASc.21992$Jp6.3651@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <cfev1s$kdb$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 02:07:31 GMT, "Edward Diener" <eldiener at earthlink.net> wrote:

>Bengt Richter wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 02:40:07 GMT, "Edward Diener"
>> <eldiener at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Paul Morrow wrote:
>>>> Edward Diener wrote:
>>>>> This simple code example gives me the message, "TypeError:
>>>>> 'staticmethod' object is not callable".
>>>>>
>>>>> class X(object):
>>>>>   def Y(x):
>>>>>     print x
>>>>>   Y = staticmethod(Y)
>>>>>   ad = { 1 : Y }
>>>>>   def Z(self):
>>>>>     self.ad[1](3)
>>>>> x = X()
>>>>> x.Z()
>>>>> print "Done."
>>>>>
>>>>> I know there must be a way to have a class attribute reference a
>>>>> static method, and then call that static method through the
>>>>> reference, so if anyone can correct this it would be appreciated.
>> By 'reference' are you referring to the Y in ad?
>>>>>
>Yes. I understand now why it won't work but I think this is a limitation of
>Python. Evidently, if I set up my class attribute 'ad' to be "ad = { 1 :
>X.Y }", then calling static method X.Y through "self.ad[1](3)" would work.
>But Python does not allow me to say 'X.Y' from within a class attribute of X
>because X has not been fully defined as a class at that time. As one person
>answered, I can say "X.ad = { 1 : X.Y }" after the definition of class X and
>that works fine. But that is very kludgy to me, forcing me to wait until the
>definition of X is finished in order to create my ad class attribute.
>
>I thank you very much for the explanation of _get_ and how static methods
>work in Python. It still feels unnatural not to be able to reference a class
>attribute of a class in another class attribute of the same class from
>within the class definition.
>
>
Ok, got a couple things done. Reward time = play with python a little ;-)

Since ad is an attribute, you could give *it* some magic, if you wanted
to get your effect. Taking a cue from staticmethod and property etc, we'll
call it dienerize, and you use it to dienerize a dict class variable, analogous
to method = staticmethod(method). Then dict values that are descriptors will be
called to see what reading them as attributes would produce. Non-descriptor dict
values just come through plain. I added a  2:'ordinary' example in the dict, and
3:Z to refer to an ordinary method, which is a function-valued class variable, but
functions all have __get__ methods, so they become transformed when they are
accessed as attributes (or the equivalent magic). I had do move the ad definition
so the Z name reference was valid.

I'm living with your capitalized method names through gritted teeth ;-)
Also added X.W to help show some effects. Don't take this as gospel, it's
the first time I tried this twist on a descriptor ;-)

----< diener.py >--------------------
#diener.py
class dienerize(dict):
    def __getitem__(self, key):
        value = dict.__getitem__(self, key)
        if not hasattr(value, '__get__'): return value
        return value.__get__(*self.getargs)
    def __get__(self, *getargs):
        self.getargs = getargs
        return self # which should act like magic dict
        
class X(object):
  def Y(x):
    print x
  Y = staticmethod(Y)
  def Z(self):
    self.ad[1](3)
  ad = { 1 : Y, 2: 'ordinary', 3: Z }
  ad = dienerize(ad)
  def W(self, *args):
    for i,arg in enumerate(args):
        self.ad[1]('arg %2s: %r'%(i,arg)) # use Y for printing ;-)
x = X()
x.Z()
x.W(1,2,3)
x.W(X.Y, X.__dict__['Y'], x.ad[2], X.ad[2])
x.W(X.ad, X.__dict__['ad'], x.ad[1], X.ad[1])
x.W(x.ad[1], x.ad[2], x.ad[3]) # note that 3:Z becomes bound
x.W(x.ad[3],' ^--x.ad[3]',X.ad[3],' ^--X.ad[3]', x.__class__.__dict__['Z'],
" ^--x.__class__.__dict__['Z']")
print "Done."
-------------------------------------

Running it:

[22:18] C:\pywk\sovm>diener.py
3
arg  0: 1
arg  1: 2
arg  2: 3
arg  0: <function Y at 0x008FDEB0>
arg  1: <staticmethod object at 0x009013B0>
arg  2: 'ordinary'
arg  3: 'ordinary'
arg  0: {1: <staticmethod object at 0x009013B0>, 2: 'ordinary', 3: <function Z at 0x008FDEF0>}
arg  1: {1: <staticmethod object at 0x009013B0>, 2: 'ordinary', 3: <function Z at 0x008FDEF0>}
arg  2: <function Y at 0x008FDEB0>
arg  3: <function Y at 0x008FDEB0>
arg  0: <function Y at 0x008FDEB0>
arg  1: 'ordinary'
arg  2: <bound method X.Z of <__main__.X object at 0x00901390>>
arg  0: <bound method X.Z of <__main__.X object at 0x00901390>>
arg  1: ' ^--x.ad[3]'
arg  2: <unbound method X.Z>
arg  3: ' ^--X.ad[3]'
arg  4: <function Z at 0x008FDEF0>
arg  5: " ^--x.__class__.__dict__['Z']"
Done.

Since you now know why the original "didn't work" I figure you will know
why this one appears to ;-)

Gotta go.

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 02:43:05 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:43:05 +1000
Subject: PEP318
In-Reply-To: <k98nh0pfqsedoisj6ou0rm85a9ir4t7a0v@4ax.com>
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<20040812090056.00001e31@titan>
	<7ttmh0t8c3cogtbhhnp1ohqu8b51pda461@4ax.com>
	<roy-DC33F4.12335012082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<k98nh0pfqsedoisj6ou0rm85a9ir4t7a0v@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040812234329b48756@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:03:19 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
> >def foo ():
> >   whatever
> >foo = decorator (foo)
> >
> >is that you have to type the word "foo" three times.
> 
> Big f**king deal - all things considered. ;)

When this name is a PyObjC name that might be 70 characters long,
it becomes a big deal.


From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 15 02:18:57 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 01:18:57 -0500
Subject: Python secure?
In-Reply-To: <cfmqdj$e2n$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
References: <cfmqdj$e2n$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <MeDTc.3559$bJ2.22757@news1.mts.net>

Calvin wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Could someone tell me just how secure Python is if compiled to an exe? Is it
> more or less secure than using some other language?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 

In my experience, the security of a product is due to the programmer and 
not the language.  The language will only make it more or less prone to 
software flaws.  Of which a secruity flaw is just an exploitable 
software flaw.  Do your error checking and put in place *many* checks 
and balances and it'll all be fine.


From david at fielden.com.au  Wed Aug  4 22:52:27 2004
From: david at fielden.com.au (Rowdy)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 12:52:27 +1000
Subject: cgi script headers - help
In-Reply-To: <1091672967.41119b8746b79@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
References: <1091672967.41119b8746b79@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <4111A0EB.6060609@fielden.com.au>

Ajay wrote:

> hi!
> 
> i am generating a file on the fly and making a user download it.
> print "Content-Type: application/model\n\n"
> print "Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=modeldef3\n"
> print str
> 
> i set the Content-Disposition to force a download dialog box and also give
> the file a name.
> however when i view the headers sent by my script, i have only
> HTTP/1.1 200 OK
> Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 02:26:48 GMT
> Server: Apache/1.3.19 (Unix)
> Connection: close
> Content-Type: application/model
> 
> why isn't the Content-Disposition header coming up?
> 
> thanks
> 
> cheers
> 
> --
> Ajay Brar,
> CS Honours 2004
> Smart Internet Technology Research Group

One guess would be the double \n at the end of the Content-Type line - 
try removing one and see if that works.

Rowdy



From peter at engcorp.com  Wed Aug  4 23:08:28 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 23:08:28 -0400
Subject: Does python support multi prototype.
In-Reply-To: <slrnch2fbj.nv3.jgrahn-nntq@frailea.sa.invalid>
References: <2natmnFv86rjU1@uni-berlin.de> <HGXPc.1098$M95.865@pd7tw1no>
	<slrnch1o4j.nv3.jgrahn-nntq@frailea.sa.invalid>
	<TZydnS8D3rdVbY3cRVn-gA@powergate.ca>
	<slrnch2fbj.nv3.jgrahn-nntq@frailea.sa.invalid>
Message-ID: <38ednYH1NLwwOYzcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>

Jorgen Grahn wrote:

> Your code was kind of elegant, but kind of misses the point with
> overloading, I think.  At least, it's not anything I'd want to do in most
> situations where overloading would have been nifty in C++.  IMHO.

Okay, fair enough.  Would you be able to describe any situation
in which you have found overloading to be useful in C++.  (Note,
not merely nifty, but useful?)  In my experience, most of the
cases where I used it in C++ were actually cases of poor design
and should have been done differently, in hindsight.

-Peter


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Aug 11 18:57:42 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 18:57:42 -0400
Subject: REMINDER: BayPIGgies: August 12, 7:30pm
Message-ID: <20040811225742.GA16650@panix.com>

The next meeting of BayPIGgies will be Thurs August 12 at 7:30pm.  It
will feature general discussion of programming and debugging GUI
applications (Qt, Tkinter, wxPython, etc).

BayPIGgies meetings are in Stanford, California.  For more information
and directions, see http://www.baypiggies.net/


Before the meeting, some people will meet at 6pm for dinner at
Patxi's Pizza.  Ducky Sherwood is handling that; please send RSVPs
to ducky at osafoundation.org by 4pm Thurs.
Discussion of dinner plans is handled on the BayPIGgies mailing list.

Patxi's Pizza (next door to Jing Jing)
http://www.patxispizza.com/
441 Emerson Street
Palo Alto, California 94301 
650-473-9999

(Pizza takes 30-40 minutes to arrive after ordering; be sure to arrive
on time or order ahead.)


Advance notice: The September 9 meeting agenda has not been set.  Please
send e-mail to baypiggies at baypiggies.net if you want to make a
presentation.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From bjg at network-theory.co.uk  Fri Aug 27 04:56:19 2004
From: bjg at network-theory.co.uk (Brian Gough)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 09:56:19 +0100
Subject: asynchat connection timeout
References: <mailman.2464.1093545490.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87y8k19cy4.fsf@network-theory.co.uk>

Josh Close <narshe at gmail.com> writes:

> I'm using asynchat and I'm getting an error 
> 
> error: (110, 'Connection timed out')
> 
> This is ok, but how do I set what the timeout is?

It is built on the socket module, which has these methods:

socket.getdefaulttimeout() -- get the default timeout value
socket.setdefaulttimeout() -- set the default timeout value

-- 
Brian Gough

Network Theory Ltd,
Publishing the Python Manuals --- http://www.network-theory.co.uk/python/


From __peter__ at web.de  Sun Aug 29 03:01:17 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:01:17 +0200
Subject: about presicion
References: <mailman.2518.1093611862.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<8f17f4bc.0408281303.3cfb4199@posting.google.com>
	<JN6dnW6HuNiU06zcRVn-pA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <cgruvt$6e9$04$1@news.t-online.com>

Peter Hansen wrote:

> Ali wrote:
> 
>> The decimal module comes with python 2.4? I have 2.3, :(, what do I do?
> 
> The obvious answer is, well, obvious.  The real question is
> what's stopping you from upgrading?
> 
> -Peter

The module's docstring starts with "This is a Py2.3 implementation of
decimal floating point arithmetic", so there is hope you can just drop it
into your 2.3 instalation.

Peter



From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 19:49:24 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:49:24 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <cg62di$qpf$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com> <cg62di$qpf$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <cg62m5$qpf$2@sea.gmane.org>

Paul Morrow wrote:

>     def baz(a,b,c):
>         __synchronized__ = True
>         __accepts__ = (int,int,int)
>         __returns__ = int
>         __author__ = 'Fred Flintstone'
> 
>     return a + b + c
> 

Sorry about the indentation screw-up on that return stmnt...




From blaktyger at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 13 20:26:58 2004
From: blaktyger at hotmail.com (Blaktyger)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 17:26:58 -0700
Subject: Displaying images stored as binary in MySQL
References: <c9e6ac92.0408122047.1e3a4309@posting.google.com>
	<cfifm8$3bn$1@online.de>
Message-ID: <c9e6ac92.0408131626.7f5c8951@posting.google.com>

Benjamin Niemann <b.niemann at betternet.de> wrote in message news:<cfifm8$3bn$1 at online.de>...
> Blaktyger wrote:
> 
> > How can this be done? Images are stored in a LONGBLOB field. When I
> > try to display them, it prints out the binary data as it is...
> Display where? On local screen, in a webbrowser?
> Assuming the first one, see post by Tom.
> Assuming the second one (you're writing a cgi,mod_python... program), 
> did you set the content-type in the http header correctly?
In a webbrowser...
this is my code...

#!/usr/bin/python2.3

print 'Content-Type:image/jpeg\n\n'
import blakHtml, sys
sys.stderr = sys.stdout
import MySQLdb
import urllib
import cgi
import time
prevPg=blakHtml.HTMLDocument()
newConnection=MySQLdb.connect(host='localhost', user='blaktyger', \
                                           passwd='linux4ever', db='photoFamille')
curseur=newConnection.cursor()

sqlCmdFr="""SELECT *  FROM photo"""
curseur.execute(sqlCmdFr)
resultats = curseur.fetchall()
p=0
for val in resultats:
    p=p+1
    #print '<img src=" ' + val[5]+ ' " ' +' >' THIS DOES NOT WORK
    print val[5]
newConnection.close()
I know there is no HTML code but this is just a test...


From stuart at stuartbishop.net  Thu Aug 12 17:00:42 2004
From: stuart at stuartbishop.net (Stuart Bishop)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:00:42 +0100
Subject: What happened to initd.org
In-Reply-To: <411b24f9$0$15884$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com>
References: <411b24f9$0$15884$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com>
Message-ID: <AC31143A-ECA2-11D8-8529-000A95A06FC6@stuartbishop.net>


On 12/08/2004, at 9:06 AM, Vladimir Konrad wrote:

> I am looking for psycopg (PostgreSQL adapted for Python) for Fedora 
> Core 2
> and the source web site (initd.org) is down second day in a row.
>
> Any idea what happened?

Federico is traveling at the moment so there might not be anyone around
to fix server problems.

--  
Stuart Bishop <stuart at stuartbishop.net>
http://www.stuartbishop.net/
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From aranders at insightbb.com  Sun Aug  8 23:56:52 2004
From: aranders at insightbb.com (Alan Anderson)
Date: 8 Aug 2004 20:56:52 -0700
Subject: Klingon (was Re: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2)
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>	<opsb9g3hjudgjose@mail.yahoo.it>
	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2-SdnZCwNs1SwI_cRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>
	<53449fcb.0408062138.68a1c196@posting.google.com>
	<RLidnb3avo1EVoncRVn-hA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <53449fcb.0408081956.37a73abe@posting.google.com>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> Hmm... the last time I heard, which admittedly was several years ago,
> there were only a couple of fluent Klingon speakers on the entire
> planet, though thousands had attempted to learn it.  And one of those
> was the originator of the language.  Maybe that data was incorrect,
> or has changed?

If you're correctly remembering what you heard, what you heard was
incorrect. :-)

The usual quote is from a 1996 issue of Wired magazine:  "All the
fluent Klingon speakers can comfortably go out to dinner together." 
That is arguably still the case, though the definition of
"comfortably" would be up for interpretation.  It would take a rather
large table, and I would say that not everyone could easily
participate in the same conversation merely because they'd be too far
away from each other.  (At the conference banquet last Wednesday, I
noticed at one point that there were three separate Klingon
conversations going on at the same time.)

I might be able to count on my digits the number of people with whom I
personally have had extended conversations in Klingon, but I
definitely would have to remove my socks.

And, ironically, the creator of the language is not one of the people
I would consider fluent.

> Perhaps as an Esperantist I have a pretty good idea of just how easy
> to learn a language can be.  But you're right that I have preconceptions
> about Klingon.  I'd be interested in stats on how many people really
> do speak it fluently now.

There are no official counts of who speaks Klingon at various levels
of fluency. The Klingon Language Institute does offer certification
testing, though not everyone who speaks Klingon has had both the
desire and opportunity to take such a test. If you're still
interested, I might be able to find out how many people have passed
each "rank".

--
  Alan Anderson, professional programmer and amateur Klingonist
    proud member of the Klingon Language Institute since 1995
qo'mey poSmoH Hol -- language opens worlds -- http://www.kli.org/


From nicolas.ernotte at advalvas.be  Fri Aug 20 11:56:10 2004
From: nicolas.ernotte at advalvas.be (Nicolas Ernotte)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:56:10 +0200
Subject: Rita Sue and Bob too
In-Reply-To: <4125ccff$0$62372$5fc3050@dreader2.news.tiscali.nl>
References: <cg3miq$mkf@odak26.prod.google.com>
	<4125ccff$0$62372$5fc3050@dreader2.news.tiscali.nl>
Message-ID: <3-6dnQgHms6BgrvcRVnysA@scarlet.biz>

Gr?goire Dooms wrote:
> This second piece of code searches list for the sequence 
> ['Rita','Sue','Bob'] in this order and without inserts.
> It can be rewritten in a more pythonic way :
> 
> for i in range(len(l)):
>     if l[i:i+3] == ['Rita','Sue','Bob']:
>         print 'They were found'
>         break
> else:
>     print 'They were not in the list'

D?cid?ment, le monde est petit !

Nicolas Ernotte, FSA12 ;-)


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Fri Aug  6 09:02:17 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:02:17 -0400
Subject: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was Decorator syntax)
In-Reply-To: <6LWdnZCpvI7Ico_cRVn-hw@giganews.com>
References: <6LWdnZCpvI7Ico_cRVn-hw@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408060901100.30087-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Istvan Albert wrote:

> Ladies and Gents, start your engines and rally around
> this syntax (if you prefer it of course) so that there
> is evidence that it should be taken as a serious candidate.

My vote goes to this.  If we have to have decorators, this is how they 
should look.



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sun Aug 15 15:57:30 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:57:30 -0400
Subject: Python "decompyle"
References: <opscrrsaxt5kr1pg@news.swissonline.ch>
Message-ID: <cfof7b$35e$1@sea.gmane.org>


"David D?rrenmatt" <dd at guv.ethz.ch> wrote in message
news:opscrrsaxt5kr1pg at news.swissonline.ch...
> If I try to use decompyle (decompyle-2.3) for pyc-files < version 2.0, I
> get an error with marshal_20 (ImportError: dynamic module does not define
> init function (initmarshal_20)  ). marshal_20 was compiled to a so-file
> using gcc.
>
> Does anybody know where this error could come from and how to solve it?

Your post suggests that your build does work for .pyc files >= version 2.0.
Is this correct?  Does the doc for decompyle say it should work for earlier
versions?

The creation of .pyc files is a CPython implementation detail and the
format is version specific.  So it is easy to imagine that dycompyle might
give up or occasionally misfire with ancient .pycs.  But maybe the answer
lies elsewhere.

Terry J. Reedy





From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 03:19:47 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 17:19:47 +1000
Subject: Yet another decorator proposal
In-Reply-To: <opscj0k7na35jo5o@news.gmane.org>
References: <opscj0k7na35jo5o@news.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408130019492c6c@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:06:33 +0200, Marco Aschwanden
<ppntwimbxffc at spammotel.com> wrote:
> 
> Here is yet another decorator proposal:
> 
> def sumSequencesLengths(var1, var2):
>      """Computes something very important.
> 
>      __decorators__:
>          staticmethod
>      __parameters__:
>          var1=Sequences
>          var2=Sequences
>      __returns__:
>          int
>      """

Sorry - you're putting the decorators _inside_ the docstring? Why on
earth would you want to do that? In the god-knows-how-many years
we've had docstrings, we can't even agree on a common way to mark
these up, let alone attaching magic to their meanings...!

Note also that one of the advantages of adding decorators is that
it offers a cleaner solution for things like SPARK that currently put
parse rules inside a docstring. There's a bunch of other nasties 
like that - e.g. Zope originally used the presence or absence of
a doc string to mean "public" or "private". 

Anthony


From fumanchu at amor.org  Thu Aug 26 12:48:50 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:48:50 -0700
Subject: PEP 322 - alternate method names
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E84@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

AC wrote:
> >From the PEP 322 page:
> 
> "This PEP has been conditionally accepted for Py2.4. The condition
> means that if the function is found to be useless, it can be removed
> before Py2.4b1"
> 
> Is there still hope at least for an alternative method name that is
> not past tense?

"reversed" doesn't have to be a past tense verb in English; it's more of
an adjective, modifying its target. "X is a reversed sequence".

> flip, transpose, invert, swap... 

The problem with using a "present tense verb" is that it implies that
the original object is mutated.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 12 16:32:48 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:32:48 -0400
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
In-Reply-To: <EvadnaCm3bK0NIbcRVn-iQ@powergate.ca>
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
	<60dfb6f6.0408111846.615ee9eb@posting.google.com>
	<3YWdnYxLf--ObofcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<cffbbu$amv$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk> <411ba1db$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<EvadnaCm3bK0NIbcRVn-iQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <411bd3f0$1@nntp.zianet.com>

Peter Hansen wrote:
> Mark Bottjer wrote:
>> With this
>> syntax, though, the decorate block changes how the def statement is 
>> handled, even though they are at the same indentation level.
> 
> Changes it how?  The definition of this whole decorator idea has been
> that it is equivalent to applying the decorator functions *after* the
> def has completed, as in "func = decorator(func)".  This does not
> in any way changed how the def statement itself is handled.

Except that the action happens magically after the def, even though the 
decorator is before it. To me, this has the appearance of changing the 
action of def. I'm trying to argue based on how it appears, rather than 
how we know it to be implemented.

>> Put another way: applying what I know about how indentation is used 
>> elsewhere in Python to this syntax, I would expect the effect of the 
>> decorate statement to be limited to the statements indented under it. 
>> I would not expect it to affect the next statement at the same level 
>> except by the normal coupling of namespace (program state).
> 
> You don't think of "if" and "else" as being related?  When the
> expression that is evaluated in the if is true, the "else"
> is skipped over...

I concede that this would seem to set precedent (in fact, most control 
statements have something like this). But in all those cases, all the 
blocks contain normal code, right? This would be the only one in which 
one of the blocks contained purely "declarative" statements. If the 
decorators were coded as function calls instead of function names, then 
I'd say it has parity with if/else, but they aren't.

In any case, it seems that we might need to "agree to disagree" on this 
point. :)

> @pie is even less like the rest of Python
> (especially now with this weird "swallow newlines" hack to work
> around the possibility that people might try to put multiple
> @decorators on the same line).

That *is* pretty odd.

>> Of course, this argument also applies to the prefix @ syntax, but at 
>> least with that we have a funny character cluing us in to the special 
>> behavior.
> 
> While here we have a nice explicit keyword "decorate:" which one
> can easily find with a search in the documentation, as opposed to
> trying to look up a symbol "@".  I don't buy the argument that a
> funny symbol is somehow going to help people who don't already know
> what decorators are, any more than an explicit "decorate:" line
> would.  Either one says "this is different, go look up what it
> means" to a newcomer.

FWIW, I don't object to the keyword, I object to the indented block. I 
agree that newbies will need to look either up. My only real concern is 
that certain suggested syntaxes (mostly the list or tuple forms) look 
innocuous enough that newbies may not realize that they've hit something 
new. Everything past there seems more and more like simple preference.

   -- Mark


From ville at spammers.com  Sun Aug 22 15:13:24 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 22:13:24 +0300
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WE
	DONE?
References: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<t5idnRg0lMA7B7XcRVn-qA@comcast.com>
	<ifchi0hqmhpag5umuukest5v4f2e73hjud@4ax.com>
	<du7r7pzgmsw.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>
	<02mhi0prul0tnmt8jpcqhiiov2nvru6ctf@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <du77jrrkmuj.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Arthur" == Arthur  <ajsiegel at optonline.com> writes:

    >> If you really want a stagnant, non-evolving language, there are
    >> many to choose from. I guess Python could also be forked to a
    >> special ZombiePython edition, where heresy like a+=4 and list
    >> comprehensions are unheard of.

    Arthur> This reaction to my remarks is predictable.

    Arthur> Ascribing to those remarks an extremism they do not
    Arthur> intend.  And then attacking that extreme position.

That's possibly true. I hope you accept my apology for extrapolating
your attitude more than is fair.

    Arthur> Since I've been around, the controversial issues are the
    Arthur> ones that deserved their controversy - Python folks being
    Arthur> a reasonable and intelligent lot.

Perhaps - but I don't remember any controversial decision where an
obviously wrong path was chosen. Most monstrosities were incoporated
before I started to read c.l.py, though (`repr`, print>>)

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Mon Aug 30 12:33:46 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 18:33:46 +0200
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>
	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>
	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>
	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>
	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>
	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>
	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>
	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>
	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>
	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040830bjfg@bombur.uio.no>

Paul Morrow wrote:
>    >>> def baz():
>    ...    """docstring of baz"""
>    ...
>    >>> baz.__doc__
>    'docstring of baz'
>    >>> baz.__dict__.keys()
>    []
> 
> Say what?  Why didn't the Python system put baz's docstring into it's 
> namespace (__dict__)?   And where did it put it?

I'm fairly new to Python, but I think you are just using the wrong
interface to access the namespace.  __dict__ isn't necessarily
something's namespace, even if it has a __dict__:

>>> class C(object): __slots__ = 'hide'
... 
>>> class D(C): pass
... 
>>> o = D()
>>> o.show, o.hide = 3, 5
>>> o.__dict__
{'show': 3}

OTOH,

>>> dir(o)
['__class__', '__delattr__', '__dict__', ... 'hide', 'show']
>>> getattr(o, 'hide')
5
>>> def foo(): """docstring"""
... 
>>> dir(foo)
['__call__', '__class__', '__delattr__', '__dict__', '__doc__', ...]
>>> setattr(foo, '__doc__', "nope")
>>> help(foo)
Help on function foo in module __main__:

foo()
    nope

-- 
Hallvard


From jepler at unpythonic.net  Tue Aug 17 17:37:15 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:37:15 -0500
Subject: flex: plex?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408172148210.3812-100000@kleigh.nl>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408172148210.3812-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <20040817213714.GA5422@unpythonic.net>

If plex uses python regular expressions, you can use the zero-length
lookahead assertion instead of flex's A/B syntax: "A(?=B)"

Jeff
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From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Mon Aug  9 10:33:22 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 09 Aug 2004 16:33:22 +0200
Subject: compromise? keywords for static/class,
	move decorators to top of function
References: <Oo2dnUOZI8VmWI7cRVn-sA@comcast.com>
	<yOmdnRcSN9TZGYrcRVn-hg@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040809xt69@bombur.uio.no>

Larry Bates wrote:

> Couldn't we use a dictionary construct like the one
> used in classes to hold the dictionaries attributes.
> I'm talking about __dict__ construct.
> 
> def getratio(arg1, arg2):
>     __decorators__['getratio']={} # Maybe this is automatic?
>     (...)
> I'm certain that I'm missing something very important,

Yes:  Decorators should be set before the function is called.  Your
code is executed after function is called.  Or if you define some
magic to avoid that, it still looks like it is.

-- 
Hallvard


From zanesdad at bellsouth.net  Tue Aug 17 10:49:39 2004
From: zanesdad at bellsouth.net (Jeremy Jones)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:49:39 -0400
Subject: SockerServer.TCPServer problem
In-Reply-To: <4122147e$0$27220$61ce578d@news.syd.swiftdsl.com.au>
References: <4122147e$0$27220$61ce578d@news.syd.swiftdsl.com.au>
Message-ID: <41221B03.5010007@bellsouth.net>

huy wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Can someone explain why this bit of code can't keep up with some java 
> code which spawns about 200 (threads) simultaneous connections each 
> sending about 10 mesgs each. I basically don't get the 2000 
> connections i expect on the python side. I end up with some number 
> very close on different runs eg. 1989, 1972, 1992 etc.

<snip>

(Sorry if I post this twice - I'm trying out a new mail client.)

You may want to try using the ThreadingTCPServer class rather than 
TCPServer.  Just change this line:

>    msg_server = SocketServer.TCPServer(("", LISTENING_PORT), PDAHandler)


to this:

   msg_server = SocketServer.ThreadingTCPServer(("", LISTENING_PORT), 
PDAHandler)

BTW - how are you tracking how many connections you have open with the 
Python server?  It may be that the process accepts the connection, puts 
them into a queue to be handled, and waits for the deals with them as it 
can.  Or is the 2000 the total number of connections that the 200 
threads produce over the whole run (each making 10 connections)?


Jeremy Jones


From a9605473 at unet.univie.ac.at  Wed Aug  4 05:48:01 2004
From: a9605473 at unet.univie.ac.at (Gaubitzer Erwin)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 11:48:01 +0200
Subject: How to dynamically access Numeric subarrays
References: <pan.2004.08.03.11.29.43.247284@unet.univie.ac.at>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.04.09.48.00.167201@unet.univie.ac.at>

Hi at last

I found the solution myself
It was my fault not to look at the 
Python basics.
The indices in an array is a tuple!
So I am able to create automatically
such ones with standard operations
like

MyTuple = (0,0,2,slice(None),4)

(look at how to do the slice)
and also

MyOtherTuple += MyTuple + (2,)

or

QuickTuple = (0,)*5

and inserting it into an array

MyArrayWithIndices[MyTuple]



Thanks to all for thinking about it

Greetings
Erwin



From claird at lairds.us  Tue Aug 24 09:08:12 2004
From: claird at lairds.us (Cameron Laird)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:08:12 GMT
Subject: using pexpect to control python
References: <412b0b21$1@news.unimelb.edu.au> <412b14c2@duster.adelaide.on.net>
Message-ID: <evorv1-s8f.ln1@lairds.us>

In article <412b14c2 at duster.adelaide.on.net>,
Adrian Casey  <news at outbacklinux.com> wrote:
>Maurice LING wrote:
>
>> I know this might sounds wierd but I'm wondering if I can use pexpect or
>> os.popen3 function to invoke and control python interpreter to make it
>> act like a python interpreter in python?
>> 
>> maurice
>
>Yes, should be possible.  I have used tcl expect to call other expect
>scripts successfully in the past.  You can use pexpect to control any
>command-line tool.
>
>What are you trying to achieve?
>

That last is *always* an apt question.

Don Libes invented Expect.  Expect is a wonderful, wonderful thing;
at the same time, its purpose is to mollify "programs with crappy
interfaces" (his words), so it's dispensable and inherently sub-op-
timal, in a sense I think we can make precise.  The point here is
that, whenever you're considering controlling a Python-based appli-
cation PP with Expect (or pexpect or ...), you should first invest
at least ten seconds analyzing whether you're better off re-doing
PP's interface.


From martindemello at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 28 16:40:58 2004
From: martindemello at yahoo.com (Martin DeMello)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 20:40:58 GMT
Subject: Generator expressions v/s list comprehensions
References: <mahesh-525B07.12195528082004@individual.net>
	<1gj8y77.6qshr41q531veN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<mahesh-7E265C.14093428082004@individual.net>
Message-ID: <u56Yc.247168$J06.136450@pd7tw2no>

Mahesh Padmanabhan <mahesh at privacy.net> wrote:
> 
> I am still not clear of the advantages of using generator expressions 
> (other than less memory consumption) instead of list comprehension for 
> any given class of problems. Can you cite concrete use cases where 
> generator expressions would be preferred over list comprehension?

Here's a simple example

linecount = sum(1 for line in file)
linecount = sum([1 for line in file])

The former requires an in-memory list equal to the size of the file.
Consigning "other than memory consumption" to a parenthetical remark
misses its importance.

martin


From sandysj at juno.com  Tue Aug 17 11:49:11 2004
From: sandysj at juno.com (Jeff Sandys)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:49:11 GMT
Subject: music resources
References: <CObUc.124363$J06.99175@pd7tw2no>
Message-ID: <412228F7.914E3535@juno.com>

KeyKit is the closest thing I have found to an executable 
language for music.  The language is somewhat python like, 
I understand it is a variant of awk.  Try some of the 
Tunetoys at Tim's website and download KeyKit.
	http://nosuch.com/tjt/index.html

I would like to duplicate some of the KeyKit functionality 
into Python using pythonmidi as a starting point. 

Thanks,
Jeff Sandys


Elaine Jackson wrote:
> 
> Is there such a thing as an executable language for music? ...


From tim.peters at gmail.com  Sat Aug  7 02:27:20 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 02:27:20 -0400
Subject: [Python-Dev] RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <411274C0.4070300@v.loewis.de>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au> <411241F5.3080602@v.loewis.de>
	<1f7befae040805103911610582@mail.gmail.com>
	<411274C0.4070300@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <1f7befae04080623276089908e@mail.gmail.com>

[Tim, tries the "upgrade" install for 2.4a2, notes that it's pretty slow]

[Martin v. L?wis]
> Yes. I should probably speed it up by changing the UI sequence number
> of RemoveExistingApplications from 1510 to 1450. In case you wonder
> what this means:

It's obvious:  you would add 3000, then cyclically permute the first 3
digits right one position.  Tell me something I don't know <wink>.

> Action 1500 is InstallInitialize; anything from then
> on is under transaction control. This means that installer will roll
> back the uninstall in case the subsequent install fails. This is
> expensive, as it first moves all old files out of the place, then puts
> the new ones in, then deletes the old ones. At 1450, the files would
> be deleted immediately (I believe), at the cost of not being able to
> undo the deinstallation if the installation later fails (e.g. by
> user Cancel).

I wouldn't do this; it's good that as much of the process as possible
is transactional.  I doubt it took longer overall than what I normally
do (run a full uninstall of the old version, then install the new
version).

>> One glitch:  I'm pretty sure I selected "install only for me" in the
>> first screen.  I wanted to go back to check, but it doesn't seem
>> possible to go back to the first screen.
 
> Yes. I don't know what to do about this: the screen sets ALLUSERS=1,
> then performs FindRelatedProducts to find the old installation. If the
> old installation was per-machine, we only find it if we commit to making
> the new installation also per-machine.

Except that in this case, I'm pretty sure my 2.4a1 installation was
also "only for me".  I could be wrong about that.

> That decision cannot be taken back; the user would have to cancel and start
> over.

Which is an option, so that's cool.

>> Anyway, the Python DLL ended up in a system directory, and that's "the
>> glitch".  I expected/wanted it to end up in my Python directory.

> Ok. I will see whether I can reproduce that.

I believe I later saw a checkin that intended to fix this, and, if so,
that's cool too.  I hereby nominate you as MSI-builder For Life
<wink>.


From mov_21h at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 15 17:25:15 2004
From: mov_21h at yahoo.com (Bigbowser)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 14:25:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Indentation
Message-ID: <20040815212516.54857.qmail@web50010.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi all,
 
I've been using C++ for about a year now, and i decided to have a go at python 
but one thing i can't get used to is the indentation, especially as my functions become 
more and more nested .. 
 
this is probably a stupid question, but is there a way to 'hack' or get around this  ? or would it require a large rewrite of the majority of the interpretter =/ 
 
Regards,

Bigbowser

__________________________________________________
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From grante at visi.com  Fri Aug  6 10:50:49 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 06 Aug 2004 14:50:49 GMT
Subject: Standalone Python Programs...
References: <ceugpq$35rs$1@netnews.upenn.edu>
	<-aSdndbo7ry5E47cRVn-ig@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <41139ac9$0$65604$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-06, Larry Bates <lbates at swamisoft.com> wrote:

>> I have a Python program that is built on an infrastructure of
>> quite a few other programs, but I would like to create a
>> standalone nonetheless.
>>
>> It doesn't necesarily have to be its own executable, although
>> this is the most attractive option - it could just mean
>> distributing the entire python distribution with it in an
>> installer or something.

That's a false dichotomy.  There is a choice in-between a
"stand-alone program" and "an entire Python distribution":
Something like py2exe which creates a "distribution" containing
only the things (dll's and compiled+compressed Python modules)
needed by your application.

Besides, expecting to create a stand-alone executable is pretty
unrealistic these days. There are very, very few stand-alone
Win32 programs any more (putty.exe is the only one I've seen in
the past 5 years).  Everything else in the Win32 world seems to
need to have a set of files "installed" using an installer.

> I've found that py2exe and Inno Setup Installeer to be a good
> combination (for Windows).  It isn't a single executable, but
> then what modern program is any more.  It doesn't require
> distribution/installation of Python.  I've used it to install
> some pretty complex combinations (wxWindows, PIL, ReportLab,
> etc.) with no problems.  Inno Setup has proven to be flexible
> enough to install everything that I've done so far.

Same here.  I've used py2exe + Inno Setup for a handfull of
small wxPython applications and it's all worked quite nicely.

> I can't speak to Linux installations because I have always
> just used the Python installation already there.

Yup.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  I invented skydiving
                                  at               in 1989!
                               visi.com            


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 06:02:05 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:02:05 +0200
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
	<dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
	<aN5Xc.205341$M95.157379@pd7tw1no>
	<1gj4fb5.607xsc51izh8N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xllg25lkt.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj4u3a.12ttba9fynd6uN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncis152.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<1gj5bp4.qhup8tldmvebN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncitrk7.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
Message-ID: <1gj6cfv.nv3fziwoc81nN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Antoon Pardon <apardon at forel.vub.ac.be> wrote:
   ...
> > Yes you can, and in the general case get very different effects, e.g.:
> 
> And what about
> 
>   a += b    vs   a.extend(b)

I can go on repeating "in the general case [these constructs] get very
different effects" just as long as you can keep proposing, as if they
might be equivalent, constructs that just aren't so in the general case.

Do I really need to point out that a.extend(b) doesn't work for tuples
and strings, while a+=b works as polymorphically as feasible on all
these types?  It should be pretty obvious, I think.  So, if you want to
get an AttributeError exception when 'a' is a tuple or str, a.extend(b)
is clearly the way to go -- if you want para-polymorphic behavior in
those cases, a+=b.  Isn't it obvious, too?

> >>>> c=a=range(3)
> >>>> b=range(2)
> >>>> a+=b
> >>>> c
> > [0, 1, 2, 0, 1]
> >
> > versus:
> >
> >>>> c=a=range(3)
> >>>> b=range(2)
> >>>> a=a+b
> >>>> c
> > [0, 1, 2]
> 
> I wouldn't say you get different effects in *general*. You get the
> same effect if you use numbers or tuples or any other immutable
> object.

a+=b is defined to be: identical to a=a+b for immutable objects being
bound to name 'a'; but not necessarily so for mutable objects -- mutable
types get a chance  to define __iadd__ and gain efficiency through
in-place mutation for a+=b, while the semantics of a=a+b strictly forbid
in-place mutation.  *IN GENERAL*, the effects of a+=b and a=a+b may
differ, though in specific cases ('a' being immutable, or of a mutable
type which strangely chooses to define __add__ but not __iadd__) they
may be identical.  Like for a+b vs b+a: in general they may differ, but
they won't differ if the types involved just happen to have commutative
addition, of if a and b are equal or identical objects, i.e., in various
special cases.

"You get different effects *in general*" does not rule out that there
may be special cases (immutable types for one issue,
commutative-addition types for another, etc, etc) in which the effects
do not differ.  Indeed, if it was "always" true that you got different
effects, it would be superfluous to add that "in general" qualifier.
Therefore, I find your assertion that you "wouldn't say you get
different effects in *general*" based on finding special cases in which
the effects do not differ to be absurd and unsupportable.


> > But let's be sensible: if 'it' is joining two strings which are bound to
> > names b and c, b+c is the only OBVIOUS way to do it.  Building a
> > sequence whose items are b and c and calling ''.join on it is clearly an
> > indirect and roundabout -- therefore NOT "the one obvious way"! -- to
> > achieve a result.  Proof: it's so unobvious, unusual, rarely used if
> > ever, that you typed entirely wrong code for the purpose...
> 
> That is just tradition. Suppose the "+" operator wouldn't have worked
> on strings an concatenating would from the start been done by joining,
> then that would have been the one obvious way to do it.

In a hypothetical language without any + operator, but with both unary
and binary - operators, the one "obvious" way to add two numbers a and b
might indeed be to code:  a - (-b).  So what?  In a language WITH a
normal binary + operator, 'a - (-b)' is nothing like 'an obvious way'.


> > Nobody ever even wished for there to never be two sequences of code with
> > the same end-result.  The idea (a target to strive for) is that out of
> > all the (probably countable) sequences with that property, ONE stands
> > out as so much simpler, clearer, more direct, more obvious, to make that
> > sequence the ONE OBVIOUS way.
> 
> And what if it are three sequences of code with the same end-result,
> or four. From what number isn't it a problem any more if two sequences
> of that length or more produce the same result.

To add N integers that are bound to N separate identifiers, there are
(quite obviously) N factorial "sequences of [the same] length" producing
the same result.  Is it "a problem"?  I guess it may be considered a
minor annoyance, but it would be absurd to try and do something against
it, e.g. by arbitrary rules forbidding addition between variables except
in alphabetical order.  Practicality beats purity.

> 
> > We can't always get even that, as a+b vs
> > b+a show when a and b are bound to numbers, but we can sure get closer
> > to it by respecting most of GvR's design decisions than by offering
> > unfounded, hasty and badly reasoning critiques of them.
> 
> I think that this goal of GvR is a bad one. 

I'm sure you're a better language designer than GvR, since you're
qualified to critique, not just a specific design decision, but one of
the pillars on which he based many of the design decisions that together
made Python.
Therefore, I earnestly urge you to stop wasting your time critiquing an
inferiorly-designed language and go off and design your own, which will
no doubt be immensely superior.  Good bye; don't slam the door on the
way out, please.

> If someway of doing it
> is usefull then I think it should be included and the fact that
> it introduces more than one obvious way to do some things shouldn't
> count for much.

This is exactly Perl's philosophy, of course.

> 
> Sure you shouldn't go the perl-way where things seemed to have
> been introduced just for the sake of having more than obvious way
> to do things. But eliminating possibilities (method chaining)
> just because you don't like them and because they would create
> more than one obvious way to do things, seems just as bad to
> me.

If a language should not eliminate possibilities because its designer
does not like those possibilities, indeed if it's BAD for a language
designer to omit from his language the possibilities he dislikes, what
else should a language designer do then, except include every
possibility that somebody somewhere MIGHT like?  And that IS a far
better description of Perl's philosophy than "just for the sake" quips
(which are essentially that -- quips).

> What I have herad about the decorators is that one of the
> arguments in favor of decorators is, that you have to
> give the name of the function only once, where tradionally
> you have to repeat the function name and this can introduce
> errors.
> 
> But the same argument goes for allowing method chaining.
> Without method chaining you have to repeat the name of
> the object which can introduce errors. 

I've heard that argument in favour of augmented assignment operators
such as += -- and there it makes sense, since the item you're operating
on has unbounded complexity... mydict[foo].bar[23].zepp += 1 may indeed
be better than repeating that horrid LHS (although "Demeter's Law"
suggests that such multi-dotted usage is a bad idea in itself, one
doesn't always structure code with proper assignment of responsibilities
to objects and so forth...).

For a plain name, particularly one which is just a local variable and
therefore you can choose to be as simple as you wish, the argument makes
no sense to me.  If I need to call several operations on an object I'm
quite likely to give that object a 'temporary alias' in a local name
anyway, of course:
  target = mydict[foo].bar[23].zepp
  target.pop(xu1)
  target.sort()
  target.pop(xu3)
  target.reverse()
  target.pop(xu7)

Doing just the same thing when I don't need intermediate access to the
object between calls that mutate the object and currently return None is
no hardship, just as it isn't when such access IS needed.  Note that you
couldn't do chaining here anyway, since pop mutates the object but also
returns a significant value...


> >> The difference between
> >> 
> >>   print somelist.sort()
> >> 
> >> and
> >> 
> >>   somelist.sort()
> >>   print somelist
> >> 
> >> 
> >> is IMO of the same order as the difference between
> >> 
> >> 
> >>   print a + b
> >> 
> >> and
> >> 
> >>   r = a + b
> >>   print r
> >
> > For a sufficiently gross-grained comparison, sure.  And so?  In the
> > second case, if you're not interested in having the value of a+b kept
> > around for any subsequent use, then the first approach is the one
> > obvious way;
> 
> No it isn't because programs evolve. So you may think you don't
> need the result later on, but that may change, so writing it
> the second way, will making changes easier later on.

Ridiculous.  Keep around a+b, which for all we know here might be a
million-items list!, by having a name bound to it, without ANY current
need for that object, because some FUTURE version of your program may
have different specs?!
If specs change, refactoring the program written in the sensible way,
the way that doesn't keep memory occupied to no good purpose, won't  be
any harder than refactoring the program that wastes megabytes by always
keeping all intermediate results around "just in case".


> > if you ARE, the second, because you've bound a name to it
> > (which you might have avoided) so you can reuse it (if you have no
> > interest in such reuse, it's not obvious why you've bound any name...).
> >
> > In the first case, fortunately the first approach is illegal, the second
> > one is just fine.  Were they exactly equivalent in effect neither would
> > be the one obvious way for all reasonable observer -- some would hate
> > the side effect in the first case, some would hate the idea of having
> > two statements where one might suffice in the second case.
> 
> So? I sometimes get the idea that people here can't cope with
> differences in how people code. So any effort must be made
> to force people to code in one specific way.

When more than one person cooperates in writing a program, the group
will work much better if there is no "code ownership" -- the lack of
individualized, quirky style variations helps a lot.  It's not imposible
to 'cope with differences' in coding style within a team, but it's just
one more roadblock erected to no good purpose.  A language can help the
team reach reasonably uniform coding style (by trying to avoid offering
gratuitous variation which serves no real purpose), or it can hinder the
team in that same goal (by showering gratuitous variation on them).


> > Fortunately the first approach does NOT do the same thing as the second
> > (it prints out None:-) so Python sticks to its design principles.  Let
> > me offer a private libation to whatever deities protect programmers,
> > that Python was designed by GvR rather than by people able to propose
> > analogies such as this last one without following through on all of
> > their implications and seeing why this SHOWS Python is consistent in
> > applying its own design principles!
> 
> That these implications are important is just an implication on the
> design principles. If someone doesn't think particular design principles
> are that important, he doesn't care that if somethings is changed that
> particulat design principle will be violated. Personnaly I'm not
> that impressed with the design of python, it is a very usefull language

Great, so, I repeat: go away and design your language, one that WILL
impress you with its design.  Here, you're just waiting your precious
time and energy, as well of course as ours.

> but having operators like '+=' which have a different kind of result
> depending on whether you have a mutable or immutable object is IMO
> not such a good design and I wonder what design principle inspired
> them.

Practicality beats purity: needing to polymorphically concatenate two
sequences of any kind, without caring if one gets modified or not, is a
reasonably frequent need and is quite well satisfied by += for example.


Alex


From theller at python.net  Tue Aug 24 04:33:03 2004
From: theller at python.net (Thomas Heller)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:33:03 +0200
Subject: fun with unicode files
Message-ID: <6579x7eo.fsf@python.net>

I want to use ConfigParser with both NT4-style .reg files, which are
ascii (or ansi?) files, and XP-stype .reg files which seem to be UTF-16
encoded unicode-files (hope that's the correct terminology).  [And yes, I
have read the warning in the manual that ConfigParser doesn't interpret
the value-type prefixes in the reg files]

Here's the start of the method I wrote to detect the encoding and read
the file:

def _parse_regfile(self, filename):
    ifi = open(filename, "r")
    import codecs, StringIO
    if ifi.read(2) in (codecs.BOM_LE, codecs.BOM_BE):
        ifi.close()
        ifi = codecs.open(filename, "r", "utf-16")

I wonder: do I really have to check for the BOM manually, or is there a
Python function which does that?
Continuing the code:

        # ConfigParser calls .readline(), but:
        # NotImplementedError: '.readline() is not implemented for UTF-16'
        # so we need to put the data into a StringIO instance.
        # Um, cStringIO doesn't handle unicode correctly, so we'll have
        # to use the slower StringIO
        ifi = StringIO.StringIO(ifi.read())
    ifi.readline() # skip the first two lines
    ifi.readline()
    c = ConfigParser()
    c.readfp(ifi)
    return c

Is there a better way to do this?  Why doesn't the UTF-16 codec
implement readline()?

Thomas


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Wed Aug 18 16:14:48 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:14:48 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <10i7da3cu03eabb@corp.supernews.com>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<10i7da3cu03eabb@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408181611420.30686-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Jeff Shannon wrote:

> quickly moved on to Apple //e; 

<3 the Apple //e.  My dad taught me how to program in BASIC on it when I 
was 6.  The Beagle Bros. were like gods to me (anyone else remember 
them?).  Would that Python could run on a //e ;)



From irmen at -NOSPAM-REMOVETHIS-xs4all.nl  Thu Aug 19 14:32:21 2004
From: irmen at -NOSPAM-REMOVETHIS-xs4all.nl (Irmen de Jong)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:32:21 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <cg1op9$1j38$1@biggoron.nerim.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<cg1op9$1j38$1@biggoron.nerim.net>
Message-ID: <4124f237$0$78283$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>

Alexandre Fayolle wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Age 30. Started programming at 15 on an Atari 520STe, using GFA Basic...
> Been full time Python programmer for 4 years. 
> 

GFA Basic!  Hey, that brings back memories.
I actually used it on the Amiga, there was a great port
of it to AmidaDOS at the time.

--Irmen


From natunika at gmx.de  Wed Aug 18 03:35:17 2004
From: natunika at gmx.de (Silke)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 00:35:17 -0700
Subject: serial and threads
References: <39ba6e78.0408170215.59f5bfc0@posting.google.com>
	<39ba6e78.0408170554.4b6b46bf@posting.google.com>
	<U9udnZz_B_2ms7_cRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <39ba6e78.0408172335.84c4eb8@posting.google.com>

Hi Peter,

I only verified this by checking it out. Here is the code

import sys
sys.path.append('c:\\python23\\lib\\site-packages\\serial')
import thread           #This module provides low-level primitives for
working with multiple threads
import threading        #This module constructs higher-level threading
interfaces on top of the lower level thread module.
import serialwin32      #Python Serial Port Extension for Win32,
Linux, BSD, Jython; serial driver for win32; see __init__.py
import socket           #Low-level networking interface
import binascii         #Convert between binary and ASCII

def NetworkToSerial(input):
        s.write(binascii.unhexlify(input))        
        print "SENT: %s" % input                  # %s: if command is
not string format to string

def SerialToNetwork():
        result = s.read(12)
        print "RECEIVED:"
        print binascii.hexlify(result)          
             
s = serialwin32.Serial ()
s.port = 0                      #COM1
s.baudrate = 115200
s.databits = 8
s.timeout = None                   #None=wait forever; 0=return
immediately on read; x = x seconds
s.open()

command = "0b02ff0512340000000255aa"

sthread = threading.Thread(target=NetworkToSerial(command))
rthread = threading.Thread(target=SerialToNetwork)

sthread.start()
rthread.start()
sthread.join(5)
rthread.join(5)

s.close()

and it does exactly what I want it to do, so I guess it's ok...

Thank you for your help!

Bye

Silke


Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message news:<U9udnZz_B_2ms7_cRVn-hQ at powergate.ca>...
> Silke wrote:
> > I already found a solution using 'threading' instead of 'thread' :-)
> 
> Are you positive that is really a solution?  If the original
> problem was truly because of a thread-safety issue, then it's
> most likely, I think, that it was a race condition and that
> it could very well re-appear in the future.
> 
> The "threading" module is mostly just a higher level API on
> top of the "thread" module, so that change alone seems unlikely
> to solve the issue, unless there is code in serialwin32 specifically
> to do the proper locking when the threading module is used...
> 
> -Peter


From reply.in.the.newsgroup at my.address.is.invalid  Fri Aug 20 04:16:41 2004
From: reply.in.the.newsgroup at my.address.is.invalid (Rene Pijlman)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:16:41 +0200
Subject: html templates
References: <mailman.1998.1092968486.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cncbi0paabnc80f179piacb3kn2dn1kblr@4ax.com>

Ajay:
>i am looking for a framework to create a fast dynamic website. between
>using Cheetah and HTMLTemplate which would you recommend?

I've used Cheetah and it's great. I have no experience with HTMLTemplate
though.

>also quixote offers a session management API? how secure is this session
>management? is it just a cookie on the client side?

Feel lucky:
http://www.google.com/search?q=quixote+session+management

-- 
Ren? Pijlman


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 23:32:10 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:32:10 +1000
Subject: static class methods and data members
In-Reply-To: <b68d2f19.0408191123.2018be94@posting.google.com>
References: <b68d2f19.0408181247.19b434d2@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1910.1092869488.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b68d2f19.0408191123.2018be94@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204081920324156b48e@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 Aug 2004 12:23:03 -0700, Neil Zanella <nzanella at cs.mun.ca> wrote:
> The http://www.python.org/2.2.1/descrintro.html#staticmethods you mentioned
> really does contain some of the information I was missing pertaining to
> classmethod and staticmethod. 

This file is not part of the Python documentation. If there's specific bits from
it you feel should be in the std documentation, open a SF doc bug and list
the bits that are missing.

Thanks,
Anthony


From timblack1 at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 28 13:47:30 2004
From: timblack1 at yahoo.com (Tim)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 10:47:30 -0700
Subject: How to set wxTextCtrl style to wxHSCROLL?
References: <b8abecbd.0408202131.3418dae@posting.google.com>
	<1093356734.77170@news.commspeed.net>
Message-ID: <b8abecbd.0408280947.41fafdaa@posting.google.com>

Thank you!  I couldn't get the wxTextCtrl style to change using the
method you suggested, but I tried the StyledTextCtrl which works
wonderfully! : )  It made the more complex functionality easier to
implement all-around.

Tim


From uche at ogbuji.net  Mon Aug  9 14:35:46 2004
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 11:35:46 -0700
Subject: read/write XML
References: <cej819$ad4$1@schleim.qwe.de>
Message-ID: <d116fbae.0408091035.205dd3a6@posting.google.com>

Torsten Mohr <tmohr at s.netic.de> wrote in message news:<cej819$ad4$1 at schleim.qwe.de>...
> Hi,
> 
> i just took a look into the python documentation regarding XML.
> XMLDOM look quite big, so i took another look at "minidom".
> 
> So is minidom the preferred way to go to read an XML, handle
> its data and also write XML?

Depends on many other things.

> In the example (13.7.2, SLideshow) the structure seems to be
> read into a "dom", but to check its structure against some
> criteria seems to be completely missing, e.g.:
> 
> - only defined elements used
> - at least one slide in the slideshow
> - others ...
> 
> How can i check a "dom" against these criteria?

You can use DTD, RELAX NG or Schematron.  For DTD use PyXML or
libxml2.  For RELAX NG, use 4Suite, XVIF stand-alone or libxml2.  For
Schematron use Scimitar or an XSLT Schematron implementation.

We can offer more detailed answers if you ask more detailed questions.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji                                    Fourthought, Inc.
http://uche.ogbuji.net    http://4Suite.org    http://fourthought.com
Decomposition, Process, Recomposition -
http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2004/07/28/py-xml.html
Perspective on XML: Steady steps spell success with Google -
http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp?id=9663
Managing XML libraries - http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp?id=9160
Commentary on "Objects. Encapsulation. XML?" -
http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp?id=9090
Harold's Effective XML -
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-think25.html
A survey of XML standards -
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-stand4/


From phanish.tubagere at hp.com  Mon Aug 23 07:46:09 2004
From: phanish.tubagere at hp.com (Phanish)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 04:46:09 -0700
Subject: python usage
Message-ID: <c5ff5ef5.0408230346.5406b803@posting.google.com>

Hi, One of my customer wants me to use Python as a test scripting
language. The architecture is as follows: An C++/Java UI obtains all
required inputs from the user and then makes call to Python script
which inturns calls c++ client stubs. These stubs are CORBA stubs
which talk to a CORBA server residing some where in the network.
I want to know as to whether it is feasible to use Python or just live
with c++ for UI and stubs?
Is it good to use Python for this purpose? What is the advantage?
Thanks
Phanish


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Fri Aug  6 16:47:04 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 16:47:04 -0400
Subject: Prothon is switching to the .NET platform
References: <000401c47b59$32539220$0d01a8c0@MarkVaio>
	<mailman.1257.1091769173.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061247130.22947-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<10h7lb21dhbuc12@news.supernews.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061533250.25906-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <10h7rittck6ct75@news.supernews.com>


"Christopher T King" <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061533250.25906-100000 at ccc8.wpi.edu...
> On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, John Roth wrote:
>
> > I think it's possible to do prototypes within Python by
> > overriding the __getattribute__() magic method. It still
> > wouldn't be very pretty, but it should be able to do
> > everything except override the magic methods (those
> > seem to have to be in the class object for new style
> > classes).
>
> Hm, I'd never thought of this before; something along the lines of:
>
>  class derive(object):
>      def __init__(self,parent):
>          self.parent = parent
>      def __getattribute__(self,attr):
>          return getattr(self.parent,attr)
>
>  myderivedobject = derive(myprototypeobject)
>
> would do the trick quite nicely I guess.  I have one application that
> could benefit quite nicely from prototypes; I'll see if I can't work this
> in.  Thanks for the enlightenment!

What I was thinking of was more along the lines of:

class ProtoBaseClass(object):
    def __getattribute__(self, attr):
        # call object.__getattribute__(self, __dict__)
        # find requested attribute
        # if not found, loop through back pointer chain
        # if it's not a function, return the attribute
        # if it is a function, wrap it in a method object and return it.

    def clone(self):
        # create new instance
        # insert back pointer to this instance
        return <new instance>

Then you can create a new instance simply by calling self.clone().
The only time you'd call the class itself is to get a new root
instance, which might even be a singleton (making an easy
way to get the root instance!).

The place where this gets really ugly is inserting functions
into the instances. They have to be created at the module
level, and then inserted into the instance by a module level
function (somewhat similar to the way classmethod,
staticmethod and property work).

I know someone
said they did this sometime in 2000, for 1.5.2, but when I tried
to make their code work yesterday it failed right away. A code
inspection left me wondering how it could possibly have worked
in the first place.

I'd be quite interested in what you come up with.

John Roth
>




From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Wed Aug 25 20:40:24 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:40:24 GMT
Subject: python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
References: <mailman.2274.1093330945.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<3l3pi0pgmgu0uir1ucnj0rlfo355c6i5cp@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2377.1093456496.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <c2cqi0d8807s5em60hmi155dvj88v1bd5j@4ax.com>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 03:54:53 +1000, Anthony Baxter
<anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
>got an exceptionally good track record here. (I discount print >>,
>which I still regard as horrible).

Not only am I OK with print >> and use print >>, I am clueless in
trying to identify the nerve it touches in those who view it with
horror.

Which gives you a clue - 

 as to with whom you have been wasting your time. 

;)

Art



From dale at riverhall.NOSPAM.co.uk  Fri Aug 27 11:40:59 2004
From: dale at riverhall.NOSPAM.co.uk (Dale Strickland-Clak)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 15:40:59 GMT
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <Xns9552A7CDA8ED1daleriverhallsystems@192.168.8.150>

> what do you think?  should I write a PEP?

No. You should use Vim. 

There's some nice macros for Python. Works lovely. :-)

-- 
Dale Strickland-Clark
Riverhall Systems Ltd, www.riverhall.co.uk


From olli at fromme.com  Mon Aug 23 14:31:57 2004
From: olli at fromme.com (Oliver Fromme)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:31:57 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
In-Reply-To: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E40@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
	from "Robert Brewer" at Aug 23, 2004 10:10:35 AM
Message-ID: <200408231831.i7NIVvK8041784@haluter.fromme.com>


Robert Brewer wrote:
 > Oliver Fromme wrote:
 > > Aren't decorators just functions that are applied to the
 > > function definition?  Then how about "apply"?  It's short
 > > (for those lazy typers), and it expresses exactly what
 > > happens.
 > 
 > "apply" is already a builtin.

Oops, you're right, of course.  The fact that it was
made obsolete by the extended call syntax made me
forget about it.  :-)

So, FWIW, I think both "using" and "with" are fine,
although both of those remind me of completely unrelated
things.

("Using" as in the "print using" statement of certain
ancient dialects of BASIC which was used for formatted
output, as well as the "use" statement in perl to import
a module.  And "with" is used in several languages (e.g.
PASCAL and ECMA/JavaScript) to denote a block of code
that works on the contents of a structure without having
to write the structure down each time -- a feature which
I wouldn't dislike to have in Python either. ;-)

Best regards
   Oliver

-- 
Oliver Fromme, Konrad-Celtis-Str. 72, 81369 Munich, Germany

``All that we see or seem is just a dream within a dream.''
(E. A. Poe)


From jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl  Tue Aug 31 15:11:57 2004
From: jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl (Jarek Zgoda)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:11:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: GUI Designer
References: <wU0Zc.9845$7i2.529166@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<yKadnRd9LtSYNancRVn-vQ@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <ch2iht$2ai$2@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>

Doug Holton <insert at spam.here> pisze:

> On Windows, wxpython is the better GUI toolkit, but I don't use any of 
> the GUI builders for it.

One of them is wxGlade (http://wxglade.sourceforge.net/). Works well.

-- 
Jarek Zgoda
http://jpa.berlios.de/


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Sat Aug 28 20:44:37 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 02:44:37 +0200
Subject: regex into str
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408290203530.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408290203530.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408290243020.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>

I wrote:

> I want to use regular expressions with less typing. Like this:
>
>     A / 'b.(..)'     # test for regex 'b...' in A
>     A[0]             # get the last whole match
>     A[1]             # get the first group in the last match

I meant:

    A(0)
    A(1)

While A[0] and A[1] should work like normal string indexing.


-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html

The Halloween Documents: http://www.opensource.org/halloween/



From skip at pobox.com  Thu Aug  5 22:03:55 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 21:03:55 -0500
Subject: Confused about pep 318
In-Reply-To: <m3ekmltp7v.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<10h4s026oapbhf1@corp.supernews.com>
	<m3ekmltp7v.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <16658.59147.696173.22095@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Michael> PEP 318 has a slightly sorry history.  As far as I can
    Michael> remember, it was written as an attempt to promote a specific
    Michael> syntax proposal (the 'as' variant?  Maybe, it's not really
    Michael> important).  Since then it's been co-opted to be "The
    Michael> Decorators Pep" and received various rounds of rewrites, none
    Michael> of which have pleased everyone (surprised?  with this topic).
    Michael> I belive it's fair to say that PEP 318 has *never* accurately
    Michael> reflected the state of play on this issue.

Thank you.  As one of the people who have rubbed PEP 318 around in the dirt
a bit I think what you wrote about sums up its state.  I realize that Guido
discussed decorator syntax at EuroPython.  A good take-away from that would
have been for someone involved in those discussions to take an action item
to update the PEP.

Skip


From was at math.harvard.edu  Tue Aug 31 22:02:40 2004
From: was at math.harvard.edu (William Stein)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 22:02:40 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <mailman.1859.1092833285.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<889cbba0.0408181206.1812881c@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1900.1092860258.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Xns954A5141FF84JanC@213.118.38.197>
	<d8778a53.0408311322.9ad0233@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <-sednbGJb4Wes6jcRVn-sA@comcast.com>

nnes wrote:

> JanC <usenet_spam at janc.invalid> wrote in message
> news:<Xns954A5141FF84JanC at 213.118.38.197>...
>> Gerardo Herzig -Departamento de Proyectos Especiales e Internet- Facultad
>> de Medicina schreef:
>> > 30 years old. First program at 11 (Basic) on ZX Spectrum.
>> /me too (now 30 & started with ZX Spectrum Basic at 11)
> 
> count another one, me too now 30 years, started with ZX Spectrum Basic at
> 11

Me as well; I'm 30 years old and I started programming BASIC on the
TI-99/4A.

 -- William


From jim.vickroy at noaa.gov  Fri Aug 13 15:52:13 2004
From: jim.vickroy at noaa.gov (j vickroy)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:52:13 -0600
Subject: logging package log_test3.py problem
Message-ID: <cfj67q$mnb$1@boulder.noaa.gov>

My system:
    MSW XP professional
    Python 2.3.3
    logging package: 0.4.9.2

My problem:
    The log_test3.py script, provided with the logging package distribution,
generates an unexpected message:
        No handlers could be found for logger "root"

Here is the complete trace from running the log_test3.py script:

========================================

C:\projects\logging-0.4.9.2\test>log_test3.py
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\logging\config.py", line 111, in
fileConfig
    h = apply(klass, args)
  File "C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\logging\handlers.py", line 559, in
__init__
    self._welu.AddSourceToRegistry(appname, dllname, logtype)
  File "C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\win32\lib\win32evtlogutil.py", line
35, in AddSourceToRegistry
    "SYSTEM\\CurrentControlSet\\Services\\EventLog\\%s\\%s" % (eventLogType,
appName))
error: (5, 'RegCreateKey', 'Access is denied.')
---------------------------------------------------
-- Logging to root; messages appear on console only
---------------------------------------------------
No handlers could be found for logger "root"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Logging to log02; messages appear on console and in file python.log
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Logging to log02.log03; messages appear on console, in file python.log,
-- and at logrecv.py tcp (if running. <= DEBUG messages will not appear).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Logging to log02.log03.log04; messages appear only at logrecv.py udp
-- (if running. <= INFO messages will not appear).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Logging to log02.log03.log04.log05.log06; messages appear at
-- logrecv.py udp (if running. < CRITICAL messages will not appear).
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-- All done.

========================================

I expect the Windows NT EventLog handler to fail since I am running under an
account that does not have Windows Registry update privileges.

However, I did not expect to see the  message:

No handlers could be found for logger "root"



Also, I have not been able to get a demo script to work that uses
logging.config.fileConfig with custom handlers I have written.  Is this
permissable?  If so, how?  Here is a sample error I'm seeing:

NameError: name 'Details_Log' is not defined


-- jv





From ksenia at ksenia.nl  Wed Aug 18 12:52:26 2004
From: ksenia at ksenia.nl (Ksenia Marasanova)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:52:26 +0300
Subject: favorite python web development tool?
In-Reply-To: <10i4nttktcvltdd@corp.supernews.com>
References: <10i4nttktcvltdd@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <FC002A01-F136-11D8-968C-000A957911BC@ksenia.nl>


> i'm fairly new to python, coming from a java servlet / velocity 
> template background.  i'm looking for a good python web development 
> tool, and hope to find some suggestions here.

You may find this url interesting: 
http://www.colorstudy.com/docs/shootout.html

I use Quixote and for some projects also Quixote + HTMLTemplate 
(http://freespace.virgin.net/hamish.sanderson/htmltemplate.html)





From nhodgson at bigpond.net.au  Fri Aug  6 10:48:42 2004
From: nhodgson at bigpond.net.au (Neil Hodgson)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 14:48:42 GMT
Subject: @decorators
References: <d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <eTMQc.36328$K53.24420@news-server.bigpond.net.au>

daishi:

> As far as I know, the proposed @decorator syntax will be the first
> time that two logical lines of python with the same indentation will
> not be independent of one another. Previously, when looking at:
>
> some_python(code)
> and_some_more = stuff
>
> there was no need to look at the the first line in order to know what
> the second line meant/did (and vice versa).

   Much of the time, consecutive lines with the same indentation are highly
dependent with earlier lines modifying the behaviour of successor lines:

   global x
   x = 9

   Neil




From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Sun Aug 15 20:50:12 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 00:50:12 GMT
Subject: Anyone use VPython?
References: <8f17f4bc.0408141932.46b7c405@posting.google.com>
	<69juh0dalfeu39fpvvvcb56ukovl0o1fsb@4ax.com>
	<8f17f4bc.0408151258.35874dbc@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <o900i0l8gqofa97mo883865cdk0oog7uer@4ax.com>

On 15 Aug 2004 13:58:19 -0700, alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali) wrote:

>Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote in message news:<69juh0dalfeu39fpvvvcb56ukovl0o1fsb at 4ax.com>...
>> On 14 Aug 2004 20:32:49 -0700, alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali) wrote:
>> 
>> >Anyone use VPython?
>> 
>> Yes.
>
>ok then how yu make things move?

Hmmm.

Your questions are kind of general..

There are lots of different ways to get things to move.

In the Hanoi demo, clicking the mouse button over a top ring and
keeping it  pressed while moving the mouse.. will move the ring.

Most things in VPython have an attribute called "pos", representing
its 3d coorinates

Experiment from the IDLE prompt.

IDLE 1.0.3      
>>> from visual import *
Visual 2004-07-22
>>> s=sphere(color=color.blue, pos=(2,2,2))   

You will see a window with a blue sphere.

Then:
>>> s.pos=(0,2,2)

The sphere's position in the window moved.

Cool.

Moving things in Vpython is usually a matter of having a porgram that
changes things "pos", in reaction to something - a mouse click, the
passage of seconds, etc.

Help?

Art





From wweston at att.net  Wed Aug 18 12:22:09 2004
From: wweston at att.net (wes weston)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:22:09 GMT
Subject: readlines()
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1880.1092844108.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1880.1092844108.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <RmLUc.221780$OB3.49144@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>

Yong Wang wrote:
> Hi,
>    I use readlines() to read one data file. Python automatically parses the read contents
> into a list of lines. When I used list[0] to print out the 1st line, it is ok. When I use
> the list index 2 to print out the 2nd line , there is an error mesage. I only need one line of
> input data file in the middle of the file. For example, I have data file like: 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>           Timestamp: Sat Aug  7 11:14:57 AM
>     Adapter Address: 00:60:08:2A:C9:5A
>          IP Address: 165.91.10.244
>        Directory ID: 0675392c736079cfd81a55028df3cb43
>         Domain Name: bdanwood.dsl.tamu.edu
>     DHCP/NIM Action: lease renewed
>            Comments: 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>           Timestamp: Sat Aug  7 11:15:56 PM
>     Adapter Address: 00:60:08:2A:C9:5A
>          IP Address: 165.91.10.244
>       Directory ID: 0675392c736079cfd81a55028df3cb43
>         Domain Name: bdanwood.dsl.tamu.edu
>     DHCP/NIM Action: lease renewed
>            Comments: 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I have some codes:
>     .......
> for line in db1:
>    (ip, mac) = string.split(line)
>     print 'ip is ', ip
>     run = 'dhcpacct --ip=%s  > tt1'
>     os.system(run)
>     getdata = open('tt1', 'r')
>     data    = getdata.readlines()
>     print 'data[0] is', data[0]
>     print 'data[3] is', data[3]
>     getdata.close()
>  
> When run the codes, I got:
> data[0] is ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> data[3] is
> Traceback (innermost last):
>   File "com1", line 64, in ?
>     print 'data[3] is', data[3]
> IndexError: list index out of range
> 
>     How can I fix it ?
> 
>     Thanks,
> 
> 
Yong,
    In general, for debugging, why not use

    for i in range(len(data)):
       print 'data[',i,'] is',data[i]

wes



From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Sat Aug 21 19:40:02 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 19:40:02 -0400
Subject: __metaclass__ and __author__ are already decorators
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2121.1093122249.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2107.1093099087.5135.python-list@python.org>	<2opgsoFd7807U1@uni-berlin.de>	<mailman.2116.1093113995.5135.python-list@python.org>	<2opp6gFdg3e7U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<mailman.2121.1093122249.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2oq4keFd90euU1@uni-berlin.de>

Paul Morrow wrote:
> And I don't agree that this would be assigning new 'meaning' to an old 
> syntax.  When a programmer creates a __xxx__ class attribute, he is not 
> trying to create a normal 'class' attribute --- one the is inherited by 
> instances of the class or that holds part of the 'state' of the class. 
> Instead, he is trying to make a meta statement about the class (who 
> wrote it, what happens during instance initialization, etc.).  In that 
> sense, the meaning associated with defining __xxx__ attributes would 
> stay the same.

If we were talking about something like this:

def foo(self):
     pass
foo.__author__ = "Leif K-Brooks"

then you would be correct. But when syntax normally used for assigning 
to a variable magically assigns to an attribute if the variable name 
starts and ends with "__", then it's an existing syntax (variable 
assignment) being used for something new (attribute assignment). Why 
should this:

def foo(self):
     bar = 42

mean anything different from this?

def foo(self):
     __bar__ = 42


From joshg at brainstorminternet.net  Wed Aug 25 11:32:29 2004
From: joshg at brainstorminternet.net (Joshua Ginsberg)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:32:29 -0600
Subject: Floating point weirdness
Message-ID: <1093447949.29259.158.camel@localhost.localdomain>

WTF, mate?

>>> import sys
>>> sys.version
'2.3.3 (#1, May  7 2004, 10:31:40) \n[GCC 3.3.3 20040412 (Red Hat Linux
3.3.3-7)]'
>>> float('19.95')
19.949999999999999
>>> round(19.94999999999999999, 2)
19.949999999999999
>>> round(19.949, 1)
19.899999999999999

Why can't I just get 19.95?

-jag

-- 
Joshua Ginsberg <joshg at brainstorminternet.net>
Brainstorm Internet Network Operations



From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Sun Aug 22 12:08:44 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 16:08:44 GMT
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
References: <mailman.2154.1093185852.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <lffhi0drfibnjk2455lkbo23s241m926ca@4ax.com>

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 07:38:49 -0700, "Robert Brewer"
<fumanchu at amor.org> wrote:

>-Candidates for keywords have fallen into two or three camps, and
>emphasize different aspects of decorators: 
>
>-Declarative: declare, predef, moddef 
>-Transformative: transform, wrap, modify, mutate 
>-Attributive/Annotative: amend, using, having 
>-Directive: pragma, signify 
>-Associative: helper, qualify, qual, meta 
>-Cross-cutting: imbue, endow, bestow, embellish, extend, accum, glom,
>confer
>-Prepositions/Adverbs: using, through, per, via, by

There is only consensus as to what any of those words would mean, in
context. Make happen:

foo=whatever(foo)

Some of us - at least one of us - find that a point with real
significance. It cannot be said better than it is being said, is the
point,  

And I think it is stretching things to an extreme to imply that the
poll results reflect a concensus of the community in any direction.
There is a more fundamental lack of consensus as to whether Guido
should allow himself to be influenced by these kinds of polls.

I do not have blind faith in Guido's instincts. I do think he is in a
unique position to see the Big Picture of all the issues and forces at
work.  Being at the center of the storm.

So in the end I might have ended up doing exactly what I have accused
others of doing in other cases - reading into the @decorator syntax
decision (assuming *some* syntax is a fait accompli) - finding it to
be wise, for reasons perhaps beyond its intentions.

Art


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Fri Aug 20 15:12:15 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:12:15 +0200
Subject: Fate of lambda, Functional Programming in Python...
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2073.1093028474.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <412636D1.6070808@noaa.gov>
	<mailman.2073.1093028474.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408202110330.1138-100000@kleigh.nl>

Christopher A. Craig schreef:

> Nobody is talking about removing the ability to pass functions, just
> the actual "lambda" form.
>
> You can still build a GUI by doing
>
> def spam(stuff):
>   def eggs(parrot):
>     return 5+parrot
>   return eggs
>
> You just can't do
>
> def spam(stuff):
>   return lambda foo: 5+parrot

What a silly idea to remove a much used core feature from a
language.

-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From jason at ghostdroppings.com  Sat Aug 21 20:10:12 2004
From: jason at ghostdroppings.com (Jason)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 20:10:12 -0400
Subject: sock.recv() in Windows
Message-ID: <YxRVc.57595$wo.1554@okepread06>

Hi,

When using the socket module in Python 2.3 for windows, I'm having problems
using socket.recv(int).  The function works fine on its own, but when I
attempt to encapsulate the socket functions into a class method, my script
just hangs with the Python DOS window open.

My class method is simple:

def getData(self, max_size=1024):
    return self.sock.recv(max_size)

Why would an instance of this class cause python to hang in windows?  (Yes,
I know Windows sucks, but I'm looking for a slightly better resolution to
the problem ;)

Thanx,

Jay




From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 26 02:11:34 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 02:11:34 -0400
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
In-Reply-To: <VJOdnfiBTci22rDcRVn-gg@adelphia.com>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<VJOdnfiBTci22rDcRVn-gg@adelphia.com>
Message-ID: <aNidnUSV4-OK4rDcRVn-jA@powergate.ca>

Robert wrote:

> Isn't "Xah Lee" chinese for "Moron"?

No, it's Esperanto (universal language) for "troll"...

-Peter


From martin at v.loewis.de  Tue Aug 24 02:11:46 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:11:46 +0200
Subject: Free software (Was: 2 GB files)
In-Reply-To: <9418be08.0408231320.5fe3c40c@posting.google.com>
References: <9418be08.0408221427.182a4d30@posting.google.com>
	<prSdnX0h1KUgubTcRVn-gg@lmi.net>
	<9418be08.0408221939.7003bd3c@posting.google.com>
	<cgcv5v$sjq$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
	<9418be08.0408231320.5fe3c40c@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <412ADC22.8040209@v.loewis.de>

Elbert Lev wrote:
> Java and .NET are also free. 
> 
> Java run-time and development are free. 
> .NET run-time is free.

While this is OT for the original thread, I can't really let this stand.
It is true that Java and .NET are free of charge (although only for some
uses), they are, unlike Python, not free software. You don't get the
source code for them, and you are not allowed to modify it, and to
redistribute it.  See

http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Regards,
Martin


From just at xs4all.nl  Mon Aug 30 02:32:43 2004
From: just at xs4all.nl (Just)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 08:32:43 +0200
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<1LMXc.67190$UTP.37420@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj7a9r.g7ec5a1g89rj0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<m3wtzk4562.fsf@g2ctech.com>
	<just-18D650.10163828082004@news1.news.xs4all.nl>
	<m3sma5zqx0.fsf@g2ctech.com>
	<just-BA4B64.22210729082004@news1.news.xs4all.nl>
	<m3oektzkj2.fsf@g2ctech.com>
Message-ID: <just-498748.08324330082004@news1.news.xs4all.nl>

In article <m3oektzkj2.fsf at g2ctech.com>, Jorge Godoy <godoy at ieee.org> 
wrote:

> Just <just at xs4all.nl> writes:
> 
> > But since .pyc's are always generated in the same directory as the .py 
> > files, where else would you expect them to be generated?
> 
> At the directory where the zip archive is stored.

How does that follow? The zip archive _itself_ is the "directory" where 
the .py files are, why would Python suddenly choose to write .pyc files 
one level up? And what about packages? It simply doesn't work that way.

Just


From beliavsky at aol.com  Fri Aug 20 14:47:18 2004
From: beliavsky at aol.com (beliavsky at aol.com)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 11:47:18 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3064b51d.0408201047.40a9e9d8@posting.google.com>

"Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<jQHUc.1529$2L3.505 at newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....

Related question -- at what age can Python be taught to a bright, motivated child?


From spam at mouse-potato.com  Sat Aug 28 02:41:30 2004
From: spam at mouse-potato.com (Pascal Bourguignon)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 08:41:30 +0200
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4PGdnfsOfdDPi63cRVn-tA@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <878ybzsr1h.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>

rpw3 at rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) writes:

> Pascal Bourguignon  <spam at mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> +---------------
> | $ telnet xahlee.org 80;
> | Trying 208.186.130.4...
> | Connected to xahlee.org.
> | Escape character is '^]'.
> | GET / HTTP/1.1
> | 
> | HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request
> | Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:35:52 GMT
> | Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
> |         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> +---------------
> 
> So are you complaining about the fact that his hosting provider
> preloaded RedHat Fedora with Apache 2.0 for him? [A lot of them do,
> these days, 'cuz it's much cheaper than preloading RedHat Enterprise.]
> 
> Or are you complaining about that perfectly correct error message
> which pointed out that you omitted a required HTTP/1.1 header?  ;-}  ;-}

Obviously, I'm complaining the contradiction between his opinion about
unix about what I've underlined.

And I take care to select my hosting providers not using MS-Windows
(since I'm critical about MS-Windows).

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never
stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and
neither do we.


From pinard at iro.umontreal.ca  Tue Aug 17 20:10:56 2004
From: pinard at iro.umontreal.ca (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois?= Pinard)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 20:10:56 -0400
Subject: can tarfile maintain directory structure?
In-Reply-To: <a6fdfd6b.0408171508.65d670d0@posting.google.com>
References: <a6fdfd6b.0408171508.65d670d0@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <20040818001056.GA20880@alcyon.progiciels-bpi.ca>

[Jay Donnell]

> Simply doing os.system('tar -czvf ' + fileName +'.tar.gz ' +
> directory) works great on linux, but I need this script to work on
> windows as well :(

GNU tar, and surely others, have been ported to Windows.  Check within
the DJGPP and Cygwin projects.

-- 
Fran?ois Pinard   http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard


From rkoenig at ginko.de  Sat Aug 28 18:49:22 2004
From: rkoenig at ginko.de (Reinhard Koenig)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 22:49:22 GMT
Subject: How to avoid DOS name mangling under Windows 2000?
Message-ID: <41310e2b$1@news.ginko.net>

I'm working with Windows 2000 and Windows 2000 Server in a cmd window. When I 
invoke a python script without 'python' prefixed on the command line whose name 
does not obey the DOS 8.3 syntax the name is mangled under Windows 2000 but not 
under Windows 2000 Server in an error trace. Why? How can I receive an unmangled 
name under Windows 2000 without using "python <scriptname>? I need it for a 
later import statement.

Thanks

Reinhard



From firemoth at gmail.com  Sun Aug 15 02:03:26 2004
From: firemoth at gmail.com (Timothy Fitz)
Date: 14 Aug 2004 23:03:26 -0700
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
References: <972ec5bd.0408141032.385fe115@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1660.1092515096.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <972ec5bd.0408142203.5a8d5d04@posting.google.com>

Tim Peters <tim.peters at gmail.com> wrote in message 
>
> > Coroutines, in contrast, are like split functions where
> > side effects are often as important or more important than return
> > values. I am currently writing a real time strategy game where I have
> > visual effects and use generators as coroutines which yield after
> > processing a single frame of the effect. I can easily make an object
> > rotate indefinitely with a scant four or five lines of code, all of
> > which is in one place. So knowing that the difference between a
> > generator and a coroutine is minor, I come (in a very roundabout way)
> > to my issue. Why can I use "return" without an expression and it
> > implicitly returns None
> 
> If you explicitly intend to return None as a value, it's terrible
> practice to spell that as
> 
>     return
> 
> instead of as
> 
>     return None
> 
> It's equally terrible practice to rely on that "falling off the end"
> of a Python function returns None, when you expliclty intend to return
> a None value.

It was not that I want to explicitly return None, I specifically don't
want to return anything, it's just that None happens to be the default
for return so it seems like a convention to adhere to.

> If you want a concept of yielding without delivering a value, that's
> simply not a use case Python's generators intended to address.  If you
> wish, you can adhere to a *convention* that "yield None" (or "yield
> False", or "yield 42", ...) means "I'm not really delivering a value".

It's not a use case, but why not? And should it be? I know generators
are semi-coroutines, but the fact is that their useage outside of
value generation is just as useful and should be adressed as such. I
do not see how accepting a plain yield would break anything at all.

I have read the PEP, twice, and I don't see why it -wasn't- addressed.
Seems to me to be a fairly large arbitrary decision.


From luismg at gmx.net  Tue Aug 10 23:29:12 2004
From: luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 20:29:12 -0700
Subject: IronPython-0.6 is now available!
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com><mailman.1398.1092065544.5135.python-list@python.org>	<278de0e.0408100515.5fd3740c@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1471.1092169905.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <278de0e.0408101929.cc3d8c8@posting.google.com>

> In any case, it is standard to do time-consuming numerical computation in
> Python with the quasi-standard numerical extensions.  Unless and until the
> these are ported to .NET, such programs will not run.  Even when they do,
> there is no reason to think that they will be significantly faster.

Well, I don't want to play the advocate of .NET, but I think that we
have to take it with a very practical and pragmatic attitude.
Today, if you want to code something very computational intensive, you
have to resort to C for creating an extension.
Many programers can do it. I can't, because I don't know C and really,
I'm not interested in it.
However, in a .NET  environment, you can code your apps in IronPython
(or whatever its name in the future) and when you need extra
performance, you can code this parts in C#. Believe me, I'm just a
newbie, but I can say that translating from Python to C# (if you
already have the python prototype) is a matter of minutes. No
extensions, no hassle...everything compatible and smooth.
Sounds good, don't you think?


From mwh at python.net  Wed Aug 25 07:24:41 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:24:41 GMT
Subject: iterators: class vs generator
References: <mailman.2305.1093385215.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m3pt5fh347.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

"Clark C. Evans" <cce at clarkevans.com> writes:

> There is an interesting difference between how exceptions are handled
> between iterators constructed from a class, and iterators constructed
> from a generator.  The following are "mostly equivalent":

[...]

> However, when exceptions are involved, behavior can be different:

(It would have been nice if you'd explained what the differences were
in your post, and given that you'd didn't if you'd made sure the
examples were correct -- got a NameError for iterable...)

Here's a better illustration:

>>> def iterable_via_generator():
...     yield "one"
...     raise Exception()
...     yield "two"
... 
>>> i = iterable_via_generator()
>>> i.next()
'one'
>>> i.next()
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
  File "<stdin>", line 3, in iterable_via_generator
Exception
>>> i.next()
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
StopIteration

I agree this is surprising.  I am vaguely aware of some effort being
put in to make generators "stick", i.e. this doesn't surprise me so
much:

>>> def g():
...     yield 1
...     return
...     yield 2
... 
>>> i = g()
>>> i.next()
1
>>> i.next()
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
StopIteration
>>> i.next()
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
StopIteration

I'd guess the behaviour you've noticed is an unintended consequence of
this.  I'd also be willing to be persuaded that it's a bug, although
others might disagree, dunno.  File an issue, anyway?

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  I would hereby duly point you at the website for the current pedal
  powered submarine world underwater speed record, except I've lost
  the URL.                                         -- Callas, cam.misc


From davidf at sjsoft.com  Fri Aug 20 10:22:59 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:22:59 +0200
Subject: Decorator keyword options
In-Reply-To: <2CnVc.4606$Jn5.4384@fe1.texas.rr.com>
References: <7knVc.4599$Jn5.3074@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<cg509s$40m$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
	<2CnVc.4606$Jn5.4384@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <cg51g4$6ll$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

Paul McGuire wrote:
> "David Fraser" <davidf at sjsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:cg509s$40m$1 at ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> 
>>Good plan. If anyone likes "wrap" they could add it to the Wiki with
>>something akin to the description of transform
>>
>>David
> 
> David -
> 
> I encourage you to do this for yourself, if you have time.  I think this is
> exactly the kind of thing Wiki was intended for - we are all empowered to
> include items on that list.
> 
> (If you do not see the "EditPage" option at the bottom of the page, select
> the "Preferences" item on the left-side menu and enter your info.  Once this
> is done, you should be able to edit pages.)
> 
OK you were right I was avoiding registering :-) ... done now

David


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 00:45:22 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 00:45:22 -0400
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
In-Reply-To: <RGwTc.37687$js3.13758840@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<RGwTc.37687$js3.13758840@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <LIqdndnJz9N_pr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>

Keith P. Boruff wrote:

> beliavsky at aol.com wrote:
> 
>> One of the most commmon reasons programmers cite for not trying Python
>> is that indentation determines the program flow -- they think its
>> weird. I think programmers who actually try Python adapt quickly and
>> do not find the indentation rules to be a problem.
> 
> Honestly, I'm still not too crazy about the indentation requirements of 
> the language myself, coming from a background of using all free form 
> languages.

Did you really not indent your code in those languages consisntly
anyway?

-Peter


From duncan.booth at invalid.invalid  Tue Aug 10 08:38:22 2004
From: duncan.booth at invalid.invalid (Duncan Booth)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 12:38:22 GMT
Subject: Multiple inheritance with a common base class
References: <1092137872.2624.16.camel@dicaprio.akademie1.de>
	<mailman.1439.1092140352.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Xns95418AB04D977duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>

Markus Bertheau <twanger at bluetwanger.de> wrote in 
news:mailman.1439.1092140352.5135.python-list at python.org:

> It outputs:
> 
> CommonBase.no: 0
> CommonBase.no: 0
> 
> If there was only one copy of the common base class, I'd have expected
> an output similar to
> 
> CommonBase.no: 0
> CommonBase.no: 3
> 
> This renders multiple inheritance pretty useless for me.
> 
> Can someone clear this all up and tell me how multiple inheritance is
> supposed to work in python?

Well of course it outputs 0 twice. That's because after LeafA initialised  
CommonBase, and set its value to 3 you then reinitialised it from LeafB and 
set the value back to 0.

Do this instead:

class CommonBase:
    def __init__(self):
        self.no = 0
    def setNo(self, no):
        self.no = no
 
class LeafA(CommonBase):
    def __init__(self):
        super(LeafA, self).__init__()
        print("LeafA:CommonBase.no: %i" % self.no)
        CommonBase.setNo(self, 3)
 
class LeafB(CommonBase):
    def __init__(self):
        super(LeafB, self).__init__()
        print("LeafB:CommonBase.no: %i" % self.no)
        CommonBase.setNo(self, 4)
 
class Multi(LeafA, LeafB):
    def __init__(self):
        super(Multi, self).__init__()
 
m = Multi()

Which gives you the output:

LeafB:CommonBase.no: 0
LeafA:CommonBase.no: 4

Using super will ensure that you get a reliable chain of method calls. In 
this case it means that Multi.__init__ calls LeafA.__init__ which calls 
LeafB.__init__ which then calls CommonBase.__init__. Note that LeafA 
propogates the call to LeafB even though LeafA has no knowledge of the 
existence of LeafB.


From peter at engcorp.com  Wed Aug 18 21:04:14 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 21:04:14 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1904.1092863481.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>	<cfvi4r$bn7$1@news.tue.nl>
	<2ohpksF94tajU3@uni-berlin.de>
	<mailman.1904.1092863481.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <aqOdnX5iyaISYb7cRVn-jA@powergate.ca>

Phil Frost wrote:

> I never really thought programming was unpopular among young people, but
> now that I think about it, the only person I've met in real life that
> was a young programmer lives 1500km away, and we met on the internet, of
> course.

Most of the people with whom I went to grade school and high
school didn't know any programmers either.  (And I was a programmer
at the time.)

There's a reason the stereotypical geek is considered antisocial...

-Peter


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 28 15:03:58 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 21:03:58 +0200
Subject: Generator expressions v/s list comprehensions
References: <mahesh-525B07.12195528082004@individual.net>
Message-ID: <1gj8y77.6qshr41q531veN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Mahesh Padmanabhan <mahesh at privacy.net> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> When list comprehension was added to the language, I had a lot of 
> trouble understanding it but now that I am familiar with it, I am not
> sure how I programmed in Python without it. 

Oh good.

> 
> Now I see that generator expressions have been added to the language 
> with 2.4 and I question the need for it. I know that it allows for lazy
> evaluation which speeds things up for larger lists but why was it 
> necessary to add it instead of improving list comprehension? 
> 
> Was there some sort of limitation that prevented list comprehension from
> taking over the functionality that generator expressions provide?

Sure, and that limitation is: list comprehensions return lists.  This
one "limitation" (together with Python's applicative order evaluation,
and you couldn't change THAT without breaking the whole caboodle of
existing programs!) implies everything else.

> 
> I have always liked the fact that Python has limited capabilities for
> having more than one way to do it and it seem to me that generator 
> expressions break that philosophy. It is similar to how you have to use
> range or xrange depending on how large the range is.
> 
> Can someone please explain the reasoning behind it?

Generator comprehensions are wonderful and there is no way Python list
comprehensions can provide the same features, since lists need to be
lists.  Sure, list(e(x) for x in foo) IS just the same thing as [e(x)
for x in foo].  We'll remove the redundancy in 3.0 -- not earlier
because it will break backwards compatibility.  The only sensible way I
can see right now for 3.0 to remove this redundancy is by removing list
comprehensions and leaving only generator comprehensions, btw.


Alex


From joshg at brainstorminternet.net  Tue Aug 24 18:30:13 2004
From: joshg at brainstorminternet.net (Joshua Ginsberg)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 16:30:13 -0600
Subject: Inline Conditionals?
In-Reply-To: <f03f4fdf040824152839a66d4b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1093385974.29259.146.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<f03f4fdf040824152839a66d4b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1093386613.29259.151.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Yeah... sorry with the bad example returning true or false...

Try this example :-D --

def foo(x):
	return foo == 'bar' ? 'w00t' : 'l33t'

-jag

On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 16:28, Chris Cioffi wrote:
> Um, try:
> 
> def isNegative(x):
>     return x < 0
> 
> But for the general case, no.  (Yes, there are many very creative
> "solutions" but none are truly general.)
> 
> Chris
> 
> On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 16:19:34 -0600, Joshua Ginsberg
> <joshg at brainstorminternet.net> wrote:
> > Is there any plan to include inline conditionals in Python? For example:
> > 
> > def isNegative(x):
> >         return x < 0 ? True : False
> > 
> > Thanks!
> > 
> > -jag
> > 
> > --
> > Joshua Ginsberg <joshg at brainstorminternet.net>
> > Brainstorm Internet Network Operations
> > 
> > --
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> > 
-- 
Joshua Ginsberg <joshg at brainstorminternet.net>
Brainstorm Internet Network Operations



From raims at dot.com  Wed Aug 18 18:53:50 2004
From: raims at dot.com (Lawrence Oluyede)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 00:53:50 +0200
Subject: apache 2 & python
References: <pan.2004.08.18.22.42.26.514831@asi.pwr.wroc.pl>
Message-ID: <1rnpy3lebwvfm$.1vyvvqybr6xgc$.dlg@40tude.net>

In data Thu, 19 Aug 2004 00:42:26 +0200, Krzysztof Drozd ha scritto:

> how to configure apache 2 to work with python or mod_python?

Look at mod_python's howto guide:
http://modpython.org/live/current/doc-html/installation.html

-- 
Lawrence (l dot oluyede at virgilio dot it)
"If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea."
from The Zen of Python by Tim Peters


From adonisv at DELETETHISTEXTearthlink.net  Tue Aug 17 21:05:59 2004
From: adonisv at DELETETHISTEXTearthlink.net (Adonis)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 01:05:59 GMT
Subject: can tarfile maintain directory structure?
References: <a6fdfd6b.0408171508.65d670d0@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <XXxUc.909$2L3.649@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>

"Jay Donnell" <jaydonnell at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a6fdfd6b.0408171508.65d670d0 at posting.google.com...
> Is there a way to use the tarfile module to recursively compress the
> contents of a directory and maintain the directory structure in the
> tar archive?
>
> Simply doing os.system('tar -czvf ' + fileName +'.tar.gz ' +
> directory)
>  works great on linux, but I need this script to work on windows as
> well :(

Starting from Python 2.3 there is a tarfile module in the stdlib
http://docs.python.org/lib/module-tarfile.html

Adonis




From martin at v.loewis.de  Sat Aug  7 05:26:07 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 11:26:07 +0200
Subject: MSI Installer issues
In-Reply-To: <1f7befae04080623276089908e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<411241F5.3080602@v.loewis.de>	<1f7befae040805103911610582@mail.gmail.com>	<411274C0.4070300@v.loewis.de>
	<1f7befae04080623276089908e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4114A02F.7060906@v.loewis.de>

Tim Peters wrote:
>>Yes. I don't know what to do about this: the screen sets ALLUSERS=1,
>>then performs FindRelatedProducts to find the old installation. If the
>>old installation was per-machine, we only find it if we commit to making
>>the new installation also per-machine.
> 
> 
> Except that in this case, I'm pretty sure my 2.4a1 installation was
> also "only for me".  I could be wrong about that.

Indeed. Upgrading from a per-user installation is easy, as the whole
process starts with the assumption that it is going to be per-user. Only
per-machine were previously not upgradable.

> I believe I later saw a checkin that intended to fix this, and, if so,
> that's cool too.  I hereby nominate you as MSI-builder For Life
> <wink>.

Yes, and thanks :-) Part of my recent talking goes along with the hope
that others become interested enough in MSI as a technology to be able
to contribute, though.

While I have your attention: you have commented that the installer logo
needs attribution, during the installation process. Is this still the
case, and what is the text I should use? Any other attribution that
needs to be made?

A colleague has commented that logo is too low-res, is ugly, and does
not feature reptiles. Should we look for an update to the logo?

Regards,
Martin


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 12:31:57 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 02:31:57 +1000
Subject: Buy a vote! (was Re: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was
	Decorator syntax))
In-Reply-To: <weadnfi70qOpDI7cRVn-qA@powergate.ca>
References: <mailman.1256.1091769064.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<weadnfi70qOpDI7cRVn-qA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408060931697685b6@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 10:09:56 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> I suggest that everyone with an opinion on the matter visit the
> page at http://www.python.org/psf/donations.html and make a donation,
> preferably sized in relation to the strength of your opinion. (*)

+1 


> (*) I've just done so, since it seems like a more productive thing than
> endless argument over the same issues.  And this way at least there will
> be money to pay Anthony to do the right thing. ;-)

Hey, Guido's the one you need to be paying off. I'm just a grunt. <wink>


From tim.leslie at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 01:01:02 2004
From: tim.leslie at gmail.com (Tim Leslie)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:01:02 +1000
Subject: Logical lines of code counter
In-Reply-To: <2ot78fFe1mneU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <2ot090Fe5442U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<mailman.2172.1093230107.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2ot78fFe1mneU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <d32b45350408222201745a7d63@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 23:43:25 -0400, Leif K-Brooks <eurleif at ecritters.biz> wrote:
> Tim Leslie wrote:
> >
> > http://www.logilab.org/projects/pylint
> 
> Neat-looking tool, but not really usable for me. It counts physical
> lines, not logical lines; it doesn't seem to have an option to
> recursively scan all sub-directories and files in a directory; and it
> refuses to process a file if some of the modules code wants to import
> aren't importable, which is the case with mod_python code.
> 

Ah ok, I guess that's quite a drawback. I've been keeping my eye out
recently for software development tools like pylint/pychecker, so if
you can find a tool which can provide better line count type
statistics I'd be interested to hear about it.

Cheers,

Tim

> 
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Aug  5 13:56:16 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 19:56:16 +0200
Subject: [Python-Dev] RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <1f7befae040805103911610582@mail.gmail.com>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au> <411241F5.3080602@v.loewis.de>
	<1f7befae040805103911610582@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <411274C0.4070300@v.loewis.de>

Tim Peters wrote:

> I tried that, and it seemed to work well, although it took a while.

Yes. I should probably speed it up by changing the UI sequence number
of RemoveExistingApplications from 1510 to 1450. In case you wonder
what this means: Action 1500 is InstallInitialize; anything from then
on is under transaction control. This means that installer will roll
back the uninstall in case the subsequent install fails. This is
expensive, as it first moves all old files out of the place, then puts
the new ones in, then deletes the old ones. At 1450, the files would
be deleted immediately (I believe), at the cost of not being able to
undo the deinstallation if the installation later fails (e.g. by
user Cancel).

> One glitch:  I'm pretty sure I selected "install only for me" in the
> first screen.  I wanted to go back to check, but it doesn't seem
> possible to go back to the first screen.

Yes. I don't know what to do about this: the screen sets ALLUSERS=1,
then performs FindRelatedProducts to find the old installation. If the
old installation was per-machine, we only find it if we commit to making
the new installation also per-machine. That decision cannot be taken
back; the user would have to cancel and start over.

> Anyway, the Python DLL ended
> up in a system directory, and that's "the glitch".  I expected/wanted
> it to end up in my Python directory.

Ok. I will see whether I can reproduce that.

Regards,
Martin


From davidf at sjsoft.com  Fri Aug  6 05:21:29 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 11:21:29 +0200
Subject: Decorator syntax (was Re: PEP 318 - PyFIT comments)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1229.1091735307.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <10h24oace15n97a@news.supernews.com>	<du7zn5a1zxp.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>	<m3y8ku1yt4.fsf@tanelorn.bandersnatch.org>
	<mailman.1229.1091735307.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ceviip$sns$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

Ronald Oussoren wrote:
> 
> On 4-aug-04, at 21:35, Nick Vargish wrote:
> 
>> Ville Vainio <ville at spammers.com> writes:
>>
>>> This syntax is out there with backticks and print>>.
>>
>>
>> I agree.
>>
>> I just don't know where else to voice my opinion on this matter, but I
>> absolutely hate the new decorator syntax. Sorry, I just had to get
>> that off my chest.
> 
> 
> Why do you dislike it?
> 
> Ronald
> 

I think for the same reason as me!

I dislike it because it introduces a new punctuation character as an 
operator for a relatively esoteric task. At least using a keyword 
instead of @ would be a good idea.

Readability counts.

David


From roman.yakovenko at actimize.com  Tue Aug 17 01:06:18 2004
From: roman.yakovenko at actimize.com (Roman Yakovenko)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:06:18 +0300
Subject: python packages cross references
Message-ID: <2D89F6C4A80FA547BF5D5B8FDDD04523060CBB@exchange.adrembi.com>

Hi. I need help( or solution :-) ). 
Problem: my project has 3 packages
prj
 +------A
 +------B
 +------Utils

The question is: what is the right way to use functionality from Utils in A and B packages ?
I know that after importing package I know it's location, but it doesn't help me in any module within package A or B.
I can add full path to prj to sys.path but it seems to be the wrong way. 
May be I missed something? 

Thanks.

Roman


From wilberforce at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 01:05:39 2004
From: wilberforce at gmail.com (xtian)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 22:05:39 -0700
Subject: Late binding eval()?
Message-ID: <cgh6n3$l7p@odbk17.prod.google.com>

Kevin Smith wrote:
> I want to evaluate an expression using eval(), but I only want to
supply
> the variable values "on demand."  For example, let's say that I want
to
> evaluate 'x+y'.  Normally, I would create a dictionary containing 'x'

> and 'y' with their corresponding values and pass it in as the globals
or
> locals.  However, in my application, I'm getting an arbitrary
expression
> from the user.  I thought that I could just create a dictionary-like
> object and override __getitem__ to look up values in a database as
they
> were called for, but that didn't work.
>

This will work in 2.4, see: http://www.python.org/2.4/highlights.html

"eval() now accepts any form of object that acts as a mapping as its
argument for locals, rather than only accepting a dictionary. There's
all sorts of new and shiny evil possible thanks to this little change."
Sweet.



From leor at bdsoft.com  Sun Aug 29 23:30:42 2004
From: leor at bdsoft.com (Leor Zolman)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 03:30:42 GMT
Subject: simple compiled languages?
References: <7xzn4fu188.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<_1bYc.855$2s.374@twister.nyroc.rr.com>
	<7xbrguvfn6.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<jNbYc.49640$Kt5.6261@twister.nyroc.rr.com>
	<psv4j0p9inej073bta5m9r6ug4ko6iiojk@4ax.com>
	<yVvYc.39965$Jn5.26554@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <5g75j051nu15gpmn67qkr22ufbkl328cg8@4ax.com>

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 02:03:10 GMT, "Paul McGuire"
<ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> wrote:

>"Leor Zolman" <leor at bdsoft.com> wrote in message
>news:psv4j0p9inej073bta5m9r6ug4ko6iiojk at 4ax.com...
><snip>
>> ...she then said she wanted to
>> learn Python. I gave her the book and asked her to teach it to *me* after
>> she figured it out ;-)
>> -leor
>
>... so what did she say the next day? :)
>

I think right now she's back to reading her anime books, but when the
time comes we may just have to learn Python together... ;-)
	-leor

>-- Paul
>



From ajm at flonidan.dk  Fri Aug  6 04:45:58 2004
From: ajm at flonidan.dk (Anders J. Munch)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:45:58 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no> <4112AC7B.1060508@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806egka@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <41134546$0$257$edfadb0f@dread14.news.tele.dk>

"Hallvard B Furuseth" <h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no> wrote:
> Martin v. L?wis wrote:
>
> > Or, better yet,
> > external checkers like pychecker could check for that.
>
> Well, I don't think that's better, but if it's rejected for Python
> that'll be my next stop.

I'm getting fed up with UnicodeDecodeError exceptions myself, so I've
added a pychecker feature request for this on sourceforge.

- Anders





From mwh at python.net  Fri Aug  6 07:29:32 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:29:32 GMT
Subject: tkinter idle handler
References: <mailman.1242.1091758084.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m3n018sdwk.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

John Hunter <jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu> writes:

> Does tkinter have an idle handler analogous to pygtk's gtk.idle_add?

I think it's after_idle, but that's very much a guess...

> Normally I could find this myself on google, but googling for tkinter
> idle turns up a few false positives <wink>.

:-)

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  I have a cat, so I know that when she digs her very sharp claws into
  my chest or stomach it's really a sign of affection, but I don't see
  any reason for programming languages to show affection with pain.
                                        -- Erik Naggum, comp.lang.lisp


From rho at see.signature.invalid  Fri Aug 20 10:50:53 2004
From: rho at see.signature.invalid (Nigel Rowe)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:50:53 +1000
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <mailman.1989.1092960560.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<AugVc.4535$Jn5.4362@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <10ic3udgs27q072@news.supernews.com>

J2 J2 J1

-- 
        Nigel Rowe
        A pox upon the spammers that make me write my address like..
                rho (snail) swiftdsl (stop) com (stop) au


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Tue Aug  3 16:31:28 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 16:31:28 -0400
Subject: simple Thread question
In-Reply-To: <fZKdncewKJzcaZLcRVn-qw@powergate.ca>
References: <b8001e9f.0408031151.4f617c6@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408031557360.11453-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<fZKdncewKJzcaZLcRVn-qw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408031630190.12292-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Peter Hansen wrote:

> Obviously this just depends on differing ideas of what it means to be
> "friendly" to threads, but I find Python to be the most reliable and
> easiest to use environment for multi-threaded applications that I've
> ever used.

Poor choice of words on my part... I didn't mean API wise (though I'm not 
a huge fan of threading), but rather implementation-wise (having the GIL 
and all).



From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Aug  9 19:06:01 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (simo)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 16:06:01 -0700
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
	<278de0e.0408090935.6d758a5d@posting.google.com>
	<i0ffh01guveqks1n854c2g4l75dbdg57rr@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <30260531.0408091506.294cec8a@posting.google.com>

Fred <nobody at nowhere.com> wrote:

> - And last, since we're on the subject of tools available to switch
> from VB... is there a good compiler so as to distribute a GUI Python
> built on either wxW or QT?
> I've seen a bunch of tools like py2exe, freeze, pyPack, Psyco,
> McMillan (RIP?), and distutils, so am a bit lost. Which would you
> recommend?

Ah, you may be stuck there!

I noticed you mentionned customers, so presume you want this to be
closed source?

Well that doesn't really exist for Python, you have to distribute the
.pyc or .pyo files, which are compiled to bytecode, but easy-ish to
disassemble to source.

py2exe is the best program for [pseudo] compiling your Python app, and
bundling all the necessary DLLs etc. together on Windows. I've used
py2exe with PyQt/wxPython sucessfully. It's what BitTorrent uses (I'm
sure you've heard of the wxPython P2P app?)

McMillan Installer is not as good as py2exe on Windows IMHO, but also
works on Linux. Same goes for cx_Freeze.

InnoSetup is an excellant installation package program that can take
the output of py2exe (or whatever) and make a Setup.exe, it's not MSI
mind you, but is free.

IMHO a *machine code* compiler is what is really holding pack Python
adoption on the desktop by a lot of companies, certainly the one I
work for cannot take the risk of having it's software decompiled to
source! Of course, for server-side stuff it's fine.

You could wait for IronPython (or MS Visual Python.NET as it will
probably become!) if you want a standalone binary.....


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 04:42:20 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:42:20 +1000
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <7x3c2iw9ig.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<7x3c2iw9ig.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040820014265c5dfc0@mail.gmail.com>

On 20 Aug 2004 00:31:35 -0700, Paul Rubin
<"http://phr.cx"@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> My conclusion: Python 2.4 should not have new decorator syntax.  Stay
> with the existing stuff, for now.

This is not an option that is going to happen. The decorators thread
has been discussed on python-dev for 2 1/2 years. The case for including
them has been decided. The original decorators (classmethod, staticmethod)
were introduced in Python 2.2, released late 2001. How long do you think
we should wait?

> Discussion and exploration should continue and the question should be
> revisited for 2.5.  For 2.4, extend the current kludgy (decorators
> separated from the function) mechanism if needed to provide necessary
> functionality, but deprecate any new such feature as soon as it's
> introduced, with the explanation that it's exploratory.

This is not the way Python works. "experimental" stuff doesn't stay experimental
once the first beta release is out. I see no reason to change this -
it increases
the costs dramatically for companies who are using Python if they have to
rewrite their code every second release.


From zathras at thwackety.com  Sat Aug 14 19:04:57 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 00:04:57 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
In-Reply-To: <slrncht4oo.bjt.npat@gray.efault.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408150003060.10274-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Nick Patavalis wrote:
>
> I may be mistaken, as it has been some time since I've last dealt with
> coroutines, but aren't you supposed to be able to do this with real
> coroutines?
[example]
> And when baz() yields, you're thrown back to the point where c.run()
> was called. How is this possible with generators?

I think it depends on which definition of "real" co-routines you've
heard. Hence my question. Thanks for the answer :)


Michael.




From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Fri Aug  6 20:27:34 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 00:27:34 GMT
Subject: compromise? keywords for static/class,
	move decorators to top of function
References: <Oo2dnUOZI8VmWI7cRVn-sA@comcast.com>
	<mailman.1300.1091816159.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <0s68h093r0dnu53veqgor1u0blob0mp81h@4ax.com>

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 13:15:52 -0500, Michael Ekstrand
<python at elehack.net> wrote:

>On Friday 06 August 2004 12:54, Doug Holton wrote:
>> I propose (and others have) that built-in features have keyword
>> support, like static and class methods.  Also, I believe it is more
>> readable if decorators, especially longer ones, are moved to the top
>> of the function body, just like docstrings, instead of coming before
>> the function is even declared.  Whether you use @ or [] is still
>> open.
>>
>> def classmethod getratio (arg1, arg2):
>>      @accepts(int,int)
>>      @returns(float)
>>      ...
>
>Ooh... I like, I like...
>
>This seems to be the most reasonable, readable proposition I've seen so 
>far. And I'd favor @ for this - it makes it clear that this is 
>"something different".

It seems to me that Python is at its best when the naive approach, and
the schooled approach, coalesce.

I can only speak for the naive approach.

And - within the context of Python as it is -the possiblity of
requiring the placement of essential information related to defining a
method amd its behavior somewhere outside the method's body would
never occur to me. 

Doesn't readibility require that you have the ability to move in a
direction down the page, and, if so,  why am I getting information
about a method prior to the existence of the method, before a proper
introduction has been made, i.e. before I even know its name.

In short, I would agree with both points, built-in support to
disambiguate certain common cases from the case of something truly
meta-like and implementation specific going down, and  the balance in
the method body. 

Just repeating a thought - but it seems unnatural to be introduced to
lots of other information about something, before the normal
forrmalities have been attended to.  Name please.

Art 


From heikowu at ceosg.de  Thu Aug  5 12:35:42 2004
From: heikowu at ceosg.de (Heiko Wundram)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 18:35:42 +0200
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <2-SdnZCwNs1SwI_cRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2-SdnZCwNs1SwI_cRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <200408051835.42558.heikowu@ceosg.de>

As all people here seem to be bashing on the new syntax, I thought I might 
throw in a little different oppinion... At least for my eye, decorators look 
fine the way they are in 2.4a2.

Am Donnerstag, 5. August 2004 18:18 schrieb Peter Hansen:
> Yes, of course after using them for a while they will become more
> readable, but there are people who have learned to speak Klingon as
> well -- and that doesn't change the fact that Klingon is deliberately
> very difficult to learn and awkward.

I don't think comparing the @ syntax to Klingon is fair to the proposed syntax 
for decorators. Just think of the following:

class someobject(object):

    @synchronized
    @classmethod
    def x(cls):
        pass

If I were to translate this to english, I could read it as follows (note the 
order):

Define a _class someobject_ which has a _synchronized_ _classmethod_ x.

The @ signs don't disturb my eye, they only make it clear that this method is 
special. All other proposed syntaxes don't have this "shows up right away" 
feeling.

I know there are problems with formatting tools (python-mode finds the syntax 
as stated difficult to grasp at the moment, listing functions doesn't work 
properly anymore), but I don't think a language is made by it's tools, but 
the tools are made for the language. And so, if the language evolves, it's 
only fair that the tools need to evolve too...

Anyway, I'm +1 for keeping the syntax as is. It's fine for me.

Heiko.


From ludo at asiatica.org  Sat Aug 28 20:01:35 2004
From: ludo at asiatica.org (Ludovico Magnocavallo)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 02:01:35 +0200
Subject: Mysql in Python?
In-Reply-To: <cgocac$lp8@odah37.prod.google.com>
References: <cgocac$lp8@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <2pckmvFjlfvmU1@uni-berlin.de>

Simon John wrote:
> I got MySQLdb working with MySQL4, it's pretty similar to the PHP
> implementation, although error handling isn't great (nor is
> documentation!)

What are you finding "not great" in MySQLdb's error handling? It 
implements the exceptions defined in the DB-API, which I find way better 
than PHP's mysql_errno() and friends:

try:
     cursor.execute(some_statement)
except MySQLdb.IntegrityError, e:
     # handle a specific error condition
except MySQLdb.Error, e:
     # handle a generic error condition
except MySQLdb.Warning, e:
     # handle warnings, if the cursor you're using raises them

What can be simpler than that? Or do you prefer PHP's way, which gives 
you no direct, portable way of knowing what kind of error was returned 
by the DB:

$result = mysql_query($statement, $connection);
if (!$result) {
     $error = mysql_error();
     $errno = mysql_errno();
     // $error and $errno are mysql-specific
}

Ludo


From adurdin at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 21:32:12 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:32:12 +1000
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <cgm0nt$epd$2@sea.gmane.org>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<cghslg$lao$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082600433e025140@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkjm5$3lb$2@sea.gmane.org>	<cgkprj$3lb$5@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826075738a8f6ca@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkur1$ehg$2@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed204082608251b2830d8@mail.gmail.com>
	<cgm0nt$epd$2@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a04082618327b772ffd@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:54:22 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Sure the interpreter uses __getitem__, but you use it too, right?  I
> mean, you don't need the interpreter to tell you whether instances of
> the following class can act like a dictionary, do you?
> 
>     class Foo:
>        def __getitem__(self, x): pass
> 
> No you don't.  Nor do you need to pretend that you're the interpreter,
> and simulate a call to an instance of Foo.  That's because the mere
> presence of def __getitem__ tells you what you need to know.  In this
> way, __getitem__ *does* serve as a declaration (of dictionary semantics)
> [*] to you and anyone reading your code.

That's because the dictionary interface/protocol requires a
__getitem__ method; there's no magical/technical reason why it should
be called __getitem__ rather than, say,  dict_get_item.
As an example, the iterator protocol requires two methods: __iter__()
and next() -- the second doesn't have the double underscores, yet
still allows you to do:

class Foo:
    def __iter__(self):
        return self
    def next(self):
        return 42

for v in Foo():
    print v

(yes, that's an infinite loop, but that's irrelevant). All the "magic"
__X__ methods are just those methods required by certain built-in
interfaces/protocols. And there's syntactic sugar to make them
convenient. They don't affect the creation of the class at all, as you
can (if necessary) add them in after the fact:

>>> class Foo:
...     pass
...
>>> for i in Foo():
...     pass
...
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
TypeError: iteration over non-sequence
>>> def bar(self):
...     return self
...
>>> def baz(self):
...     raise StopIteration()
...
>>> Foo.__iter__ = bar
>>> Foo.next = baz
>>> for i in Foo():
...     pass
...
>>>


From oziko at fusiondementes.com  Tue Aug 17 11:34:18 2004
From: oziko at fusiondementes.com (oziko)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:34:18 -0500
Subject: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xf3'
In-Reply-To: <20040817061745.GA4259@barbucha.martin.net>
References: <4120F820.4000703@fusiondementes.com>
	<20040817061745.GA4259@barbucha.martin.net>
Message-ID: <4122257A.4050707@fusiondementes.com>

I solve the problem using

print str.encode('iso-8859-1')

Now I can print the tags with no aparent problem. But now whe I tried to
insert that value into a PostgreSQL data base I get the same error. I
create the PostgreSQL database with default Unicode with

createdb -E UNICODE oggtest

The data T am putting into de database si in the u'Perfeccion' format so
I understand it is UNICODE, but I get the same error:

Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "./ogg2sql.py", line 82, in ?
     db_cursor.execute(do)
   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/pyPgSQL/PgSQL.py", line 3035,
in execute
     _qstr = self.__unicodeConvert(_qstr)
   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/pyPgSQL/PgSQL.py", line 2740,
in __unicodeConvert
     return obj.encode(*self.conn.client_encoding)
UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xf3' in
position 102: ordinal not in range(128)


my insert query is:

tracks_insert_values =(unicode(coments['TITLE']),coments['TRACKNUMBER'])

y also tried with:

tracks_insert_values=(coments['TITLE'].encode('utf-8'),coments['TRACKNUMBER'])

insert_query = '''insert into tracks(titulo,no_pista)values(%s %i)''' %
tracks_insert_values




Martin Slouf wrote:
> i had similar errors:
> 
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/home/martin/skripty/accounts.py", line 125, in ?
>     main(sys.argv)
>   File "/home/martin/skripty/accounts.py", line 119, in main
>     print_accounts(accounts, url_part)        
>   File "/home/martin/skripty/accounts.py", line 94, in print_accounts
>     print str(i).encode("utf-8", "replace")
> UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode characters in position
> 151-152: ordinal not in range(128)
> 
> - - - -
> 
> the solution seems to be:
> 
> 0. string is not in unicode encoding (assumption)
> 1. before printing out, convert the string to unicode
> 2. when printing, convert to whatever charset you like
> 
> though i dont understand much why (ive solved it a minute ago :) the
> code should be:
> 
> str = "any nonunicode string"
> print unicode(str).encode("iso-8859-2", "replace")
> 
> comments:
> 
> 1. why the string is not in unicode can have several reasons -- i guess:
> 	- does ogg stores tags in unicode?
> 	- you have parsed an xml file with encoding attribute set (that
> is what i do)
> 	- etc
> 
> 2. "replace" parameter in encode causes non-printable chars to be
> replaced with '?' (you can use "ignore" or strict", see your python
> doc)
> 
> 3. the above will work _only_ _if_ the 'str' encoding is "iso-8859-2" --
> a funny thing -- first line of code converts from unknown (but the
> programmer must know it) to unicode and the second one converts it back
> from unicode to unknown (now the programmer tells that secret to python
> :)
> 
> 4. i would like to know from any python expert whether/why/why not:
> 
> 	* my assumptions are right
> 
> 	* why is that behaviour? -- if you search google you get
> thousands of errors like this -- with no proper solutions i must add
> 
> 	* is there an easier portable way (no sitecustomize.py changes)
> to do it
> 
> 	* i was looking in site.py and there is deleted the
> sys.setdefaultencoding() function, but from the comments i do
> not know why -- you know it? why is user not allowed to change the
> default encoding? it seems reasonable to me if he/she could do that.
> 
> thx.
> 
> m.
> 



From esj at harvee.org  Thu Aug 26 21:28:51 2004
From: esj at harvee.org (Eric S. Johansson)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 21:28:51 -0400
Subject: key storage
In-Reply-To: <1093569139.412e8a738462b@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
References: <1093569139.412e8a738462b@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <412E8E53.20203@harvee.org>

Ajay wrote:

> hi!
> i am building a web application. for client authentication, i am using
> cookies which include the HMAC of the data.
> the server also has a public/private key pair for signing and verifying
> information.

start here.  This is a really good site for Web based authentication 
techniques.  I've implemented the system and you are more than welcome 
to the code.  It may need some disentangling from my CGI/form 
support/template environmentbut don't say you weren't warned.  ;-)

http://cookies.lcs.mit.edu/pubs/webauth.html

let me know if I can help

--- eric



From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Thu Aug 12 14:48:19 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:48:19 -0400
Subject: NumArray array-indexing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121433170.9323-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
References: <a56f3aa5.0408120958.5e9db50d@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121433170.9323-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121444370.9594-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Christopher T King wrote:

> On 12 Aug 2004, Michael Drumheller wrote:
> 
> > Basically, it seems to me that NumArray simply does not support
> > the distinction between a column vector and a row vector.  That 
> > is, if you have x=[1,2,3], then transpose(x) is a no-op.  True?
> 
> False.  You have to supply numarray with a two-dimensional array in order 
> to perform a two-dimensional transpose:

Where by "False" I meant "The first sentence is false, but the second 
sentence is true".  Column vectors and row vectors must be represented as 
two-dimensional arrays; transpose() of a one-dimensional array is a no-op 
since all transpose() does (by default) is reverse the order of the axes.



From peter.maas at mplusr.de  Fri Aug 20 10:46:17 2004
From: peter.maas at mplusr.de (Peter Maas)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:46:17 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <cg52ok$4io$1@swifty.westend.com>

D2, D2, D2

With dotted decorators above docstring


From michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk  Thu Aug 12 07:33:04 2004
From: michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk (Michael Sparks)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:33:04 +0100
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
	<60dfb6f6.0408111846.615ee9eb@posting.google.com>
	<3YWdnYxLf--ObofcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<cffbbu$amv$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<cffgqp$cgd$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <cffkpi$hin$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>

Michael Sparks wrote:

> Regarding J2 on http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators ...
> ...
>>    5 Technical problems with the current grammar parser if a suite
>>      *starts* with an optional part. (Ending with an optional part,
>>      such as "else:" is OK, but starting with one is not.)
> ...
>> Item 6 is always the case for any new feature, so I doubt that's the
>> real problem - the real problem here strikes me as item 5.
>> 
>> I do wonder how difficult it would be to add though...
> 
> It doesn't actually seem that difficult to modify the grammar to
> handle this if the decorator block handles *only* decorators. I've
> just tried modifying the Grammar/Grammar file to see how plausible
> this is, and I can get python to build and parse it. (It bombs out
> because I've not done any backend work, and this is the first time
> I've touched the python compiler source)

Done a bit more work and it certainly *is* caused by the backend
logic not in step with the grammar change I made rather than it not
building/parsing correctly. I've tried changing things to make this
work, but at this exact instant I don't have the time to do this. (I
might take another look this evening, it doesn't look *too* difficult
to do)

I've also changed the grammar rules again to make it a smaller change:

--- Python-2.4a2/Grammar/Grammar        2004-08-02 07:09:53.000000000 +0100
+++ Python-2.4a2-MS/Grammar/Grammar     2004-08-12 12:12:11.567115840 +0100
@@ -28,9 +28,10 @@
 file_input: (NEWLINE | stmt)* ENDMARKER
 eval_input: testlist NEWLINE* ENDMARKER

-decorator: '@' dotted_name [ '(' [arglist] ')' ]
+decorator: dotted_name [ '(' [arglist] ')' ]
 decorators: decorator ([NEWLINE] decorator)* NEWLINE
-funcdef: [decorators] 'def' NAME parameters ':' suite
+funcdef: ['decorate' ':' NEWLINE INDENT decorators DEDENT] 'def' NAME parameters ':' suite
 parameters: '(' [varargslist] ')'
 varargslist: (fpdef ['=' test] ',')* ('*' NAME [',' '**' NAME] | '**' NAME) | fpdef ['=' test] (',' fpdef ['=' test])* [',']
 fpdef: NAME | '(' fplist ')'

This builds, and I've changed some of Python/compile.c to handle this:
--- Python-2.4a2/Python/compile.c       2004-08-04 11:26:08.000000000 +0100
+++ Python-2.4a2-MS/Python/compile.c    2004-08-12 12:19:47.570792744 +0100
@@ -4043,13 +4043,13 @@
 {
        /* decorator: '@' dotted_name [ '(' [arglist] ')' ] */
        int nch = NCH(n);
-       assert(nch >= 2);
-       REQ(CHILD(n, 0), AT);
-       com_decorator_name(c, CHILD(n, 1));
+       assert(nch >= 1);
+       // REQ(CHILD(n, 0), AT);
+       com_decorator_name(c, CHILD(n, 0));

        if (nch > 2) {
                assert(nch == 4 || nch == 5);
-               REQ(CHILD(n, 2), LPAR);
+               REQ(CHILD(n, 1), LPAR);
                REQ(CHILD(n, nch - 1), RPAR);
                com_call_function(c, CHILD(n, 3));
        }
@@ -4083,11 +4083,14 @@
        PyObject *co;
        int ndefs, ndecorators;
        REQ(n, funcdef);
-       /*          -6            -5   -4   -3         -2  -1
+       /*          -6           -5   -4   -3         -2  -1
           funcdef: [decorators] 'def' NAME parameters ':' suite */
+       /*                                        -7         -6        -5   -4   -3         -2  -1
+          funcdef: ['decorate' ':' NEWLINE INDENT decorators DEDENT ] 'def' NAME parameters ':' suite */
+

-       if (NCH(n) == 6)
-               ndecorators = com_decorators(c, CHILD(n, 0));
+       if (NCH(n) == 11)
+               ndecorators = com_decorators(c, CHILD(n, 4));
        else
                ndecorators = 0;

@@ -5823,9 +5826,9 @@
        */
        case decorator:
                if (TYPE(n) == decorator) {
-                       /* decorator: '@' dotted_name [ '(' [arglist] ')' ] */
+                       /* decorator: dotted_name [ '(' [arglist] ')' ] */
                        node *name, *varname;
-                       name = CHILD(n, 1);
+                       name = CHILD(n, 0);
                        REQ(name, dotted_name);
                        varname = CHILD(name, 0);
                        REQ(varname, NAME);

However I'm now getting a new error instead (just before a controlled
core dump):

Fatal Python error: unknown scope for staticmethod in Foo(1) in ./foo.py
symbols: {'hello2': 2, 'hello': 2}
locals: {'hello2': 0, 'hello': 1}
globals: {}

Aborted (core dumped)

Smoke test is this:
---------
class Foo:
   decorate:
      staticmethod
   def hello(who):
      print "woo?", who
   def hello2(who):
      print "woo?", who

Foo.hello("HOO")
---------

I've got to put this aside for the moment, but I'll come back to it
later. (I think this is actually pretty close to working though...)


Michael.
-- 
Michael.Sparks at rd.bbc.co.uk    
British Broadcasting Corporation, Research and Development
Kingswood Warren, Surrey KT20 6NP

This message (and any attachments) may contain personal views
which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.




From twanger at bluetwanger.de  Tue Aug 10 09:38:35 2004
From: twanger at bluetwanger.de (Markus Bertheau)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:38:35 +0200
Subject: super and __init__ arguments (Was: Re: Multiple inheritance with a
	common base class)
In-Reply-To: <1092142873.2624.43.camel@dicaprio.akademie1.de>
References: <1092137872.2624.16.camel@dicaprio.akademie1.de>
	<mailman.1439.1092140352.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Xns95418AB04D977duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
	<1092142873.2624.43.camel@dicaprio.akademie1.de>
Message-ID: <1092145114.2624.49.camel@dicaprio.akademie1.de>

? ???, 10.08.2004, ? 15:01, Markus Bertheau ?????:

> That is what I needed to know. Thanks. It should probably be noted in
> the paragraph about multiple inheritance.

Now how do I make the following work:

class CommonBase(object):
    def __init__(self, c):
        pass
  
class LeafA(CommonBase):
    def __init__(self, c, a):
        super(LeafA, self).__init__(c)
  
class LeafB(CommonBase):
    def __init__(self, c, b):
        super(LeafB, self).__init__(c)
  
class Multi(LeafA, LeafB):
    def __init__(self, c, a, b):
        super(Multi, self).__init__(c, a, b)
  
m = Multi(0, 1, 2)

Thanks

-- 
Markus Bertheau <twanger at bluetwanger.de>



From roman.yakovenko at actimize.com  Mon Aug 23 03:26:45 2004
From: roman.yakovenko at actimize.com (Roman Yakovenko)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:26:45 +0300
Subject: 2 GB files
Message-ID: <2D89F6C4A80FA547BF5D5B8FDDD045232539F1@exchange.adrembi.com>

> Elbert Lev wrote:
> > From postings to this group and other resources I 
> understood that the
> > only way to make Python programs to work correctly with files lager
> > then 2 GB is building Python interpreter with some "magic spell"
> > defines. 

It is not true. Sometimes I am working with files 6G+. Python is my only way to look into those files.

Roman



From apardon at forel.vub.ac.be  Fri Aug 27 11:03:02 2004
From: apardon at forel.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 15:03:02 GMT
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
	<dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
	<aN5Xc.205341$M95.157379@pd7tw1no>
	<1gj4fb5.607xsc51izh8N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xllg25lkt.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj4u3a.12ttba9fynd6uN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncis152.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<1gj5bp4.qhup8tldmvebN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncitrk7.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<7xk6vlgemp.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<slrnciu0fg.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<1gj6eil.hgzr1l125qaomN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrnciu703.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<1gj6n23.vnzqrh1unc1qfN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <slrnciuj96.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>

Op 2004-08-27, Alex Martelli schreef <aleaxit at yahoo.com>:
> Antoon Pardon <apardon at forel.vub.ac.be> wrote:
>    ...
>> 
>> If you think I shouldn't voice an opinion here because GvR
>> wins anyhow and my opinion won't matter fine. Just say so
>> from the beginning. Don't start with pretending that you
>> have good arguments that support the status quo because
>> all that matters is that GvR prefers it this way.
>> All good arguments in support are just a coincidence in
>> that case.
>
> I do think, and I have indeed "stated so from the beginning" (many years
> ago), that it's generally a waste of time and energy for people to come
> charging here criticizing Python's general design and demanding changes
> that won't happen anyway.  There are forums essentialy devoted to
> debates and flamewars independenlty of their uselessness, and this
> newsgroup is not one of them.

I don't demand changes. I have my critisms of the language and
think that some arguments used to defend the language are not
well founded and when I see one of those I sometimes respond
to it.  That is all. I realise no language is perfect
and I don't have the time to design the one true perfect language
my self. In general I'm happy to program in python with the
warts I think it has. I'll just see how it evolves and based
on that evolution and the appearance of other languages will
decide what language I will use in the future.

I hope that someday a ternary operator will arive, but my choice
of language will hardly depend on that and I won't ask for it
except if ever that particulat PEP becomes activated again.
But if someone argues there is no need for a ternary operator
I'll probably respond.

> People with normal levels of perceptiveness can see the difference
> between such useless rants, on one side, and, on the other, several
> potentially useful kinds of discourse, that I, speaking personally, do
> indeed welcome.  Trying to understand the design rationale for some
> aspect of the language is just fine, for example -- and that's because
> trying to understand any complicated artefact X is often well served by
> efforts to build a mental model of how X came to be as it is, quite
> apart from any interest in _changing_ X.  You may not like the arguments
> I present, but I'm not just "pretending" that they're good, as you
> accuse me of doing: many people like them, as you can confirm for
> yourself by studying the google groups archives of my posts and of the
> responses to them over the years, checking out the reviews of my books,
> and so on.

The number of people that like your arguments is irrelevant to me.
If I don't think it is a good argument chances are I will respond
to it.

> If you just don't like reading my prose, hey, fine, many
> others don't particularly care for it either (including Guido,
> mostly;-); I'll be content with being helpful to, and appreciated by,
> that substantial contingent of people who do like my writing.
>
> And so, inevitably, each and every time I return to c.l.py, I find some
> people who might be engaging in either kind of post -- the useful
> "trying to understand" kind, or the useless "criticizing what you cannot
> change" one -- and others who are clearly just flaming.

The problem IMO is that often enough, when a usefull trying to
understand article arrives, the answers are not limited to
explaining what is going on, but often include some advocacy
of why the choice made in python was the correct one.

This invites people who are less happy with that particular choice
to argue why that choice isn't so good as the first responder may
have let to believe. Even if they don't particularly want the
language to change.


> And inevitably
> I end up repeating once again all the (IMHO) good arguments which (IMHO)
> show most criticisms to be badly conceived and most design decisions in
> Python to be consistent, useful, helpful and well-founded.  Why?
> Because this is a _public_ forum, with many more readers than writers
> for most any thread.  If these were private exchanges, I'd happily set
> my mail server to bounce any mail from people I know won't say anything
> useful or insightful, and good riddance.  But since it's a public forum,
> there are likely to be readers out there who ARE honestly striving to
> understand, and if they see unanswered criticisms they may not have
> enough Python knowledge to see by themselves the obvious answers to
> those criticisms -- so, far too often, I provide those answers, as a
> service to those readers out there.

Well the same work the other way around. There are those people who
think that some of the choices that python made are not that consistent,
usefull, helpfull and well-founded as some would like us to believe
and that those things may be known too.

>> >> I don't see that much difference in the frustration of having
>> >> to write: 
>> >> 
>> >>   t = f(x)
>> >>   v[t] = v[t] + 1
>> >
>> > You're repeating (necessarily) the indexing operation, which may be
>> > unboundedly costly for a user-coded type.
>> 
>> That repetion is just pythons inabilty to optimise.
>
> There being, in general, no necessary correlation whatsoever between the
> computations performed by __getitem__ and those performed by
> __setitem__,

Maybe that is the problem here. I think one could argue that a c++
approach here would have been better, where v[t] would result in
an lvalue, from which a value could be extracted or that could
be set to a value depending on which side of an assignment it
was found. And no I'm not asking that python should be changed
this way.

-- 
Antoon Pardon


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Fri Aug  6 22:25:56 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 22:25:56 -0400
Subject: PEP 263 status check
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com> <4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de>
	<10h5hgvpafm8a64@news.supernews.com> <41133C76.8040302@v.loewis.de>
	<10h6rklt3fa1690@news.supernews.com> <41137799.70808@v.loewis.de>
	<10h724r20kkeqb2@news.supernews.com>
	<HBF.20040806qchc@bombur.uio.no>
	<10h7u8m9qknh76e@news.supernews.com> <41140A61.3040600@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <10h8feetapdnaa9@news.supernews.com>


"Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote in message
news:41140A61.3040600 at v.loewis.de...
> John Roth wrote:
> > I've
> > been in this business for close to 40 years, and I'm
> > quite well aware of backwards compatibility issues
> > and issues with breaking existing code.
> >
> > Programmers in general have a very strong, and
> > let me repeat that, VERY STRONG assumption
> > that an 8-bit string contains one byte per character
> > unless there is a good reason to believe otherwise.
>
> You clearly come from a Western business. In CJK
> languages, people are very aware that characters can
> have more than one byte. They consider UTF-8 as just
> another multi-byte encoding, and used to consider it
> as an encoding that Westerners made to complicate their
> lifes. That attitude appears to be changing now, but
> UTF-8 is not a clear winner in the worlds where we
> Westerners would expect it to be a clear winner.

I'm aware of that.

> > The current design allows accidental inclusion of
> > a character that is not in the 7bit ascii subset ***IN
> > A PROGRAM THAT HAS A UTF-8 CHARACTER
> > ENCODING DECLARATION*** to break that
> > assumption without any kind of notice.
>
> This is a problem only for the Western world. In the
> CJK languages, such programs were broken a long time
> ago. I don't think Python needs to be so Americo-centric
> as to protect American programmers from programming
> mistakes.

American != non East Asian.

In fact, I would consider American programmers to
be the least prone to making this kind of mistake
simply because all standard characters are included
in the US-Ascii subset. It's much more likely to be
a European (or non North American) problem.
Even when writing in English, people's names will
have non-English characters, and they have a
tendency to leak into literals.
(Mexico considers themselves to be part of
Central America, for some political reason.)

> > That in
> > turn will break all of the assumptions that the string
> > module and string methods are based on. That in
> > turn is likely to break lots of existing modules and
> > cause a lot of debugging time that could be avoided
> > by proper design.
>
> Indeed. If the program is currently not broken, why
> are you changing the source encoding? If you are
> trying to support multiple languages, a properly-
> designed application would use gettext instead
> of putting non-ASCII into source code.
>
> If you are writing a new application, and you
> put non-ASCII into the source, in UTF-8, are you
> not testing your application properly?
>
> > I'm not worried about this causing people to
> > abandon Python. I'm more worried about the
> > current situation causing enough grief that people
> > will decided that utf-8 source code encoding isn't
> > worth it.
>
> Again, this is what Hallvard's PEP is for. It
> does not apply to UTF-8 only, but I see no reason
> why UTF-8 needs to be singled out.
>
> > I'll withdraw my objection if you can seriously
> > assure me that working with raw utf-8 in
> > 8-bit character string literals is what most programmers
> > are going to do most of the time.
>
> In what time scale? Near time, most people will use
> other source encodings. In the medium term, I expect
> Unix will switch to UTF-8 throughout, at which point
> using UTF-8 byte strings will work on every Unix
> system - the scripts, by nature, won't work on non-Unix
> systems, anyway. In the long term, I expect all Python
> strings will be Unicode strings, unless explicitly
> declared as byte strings.

I asked Hallvard this question, not you. It makes sense
in the context of the statements of his I was responding to.

Your answer does not make sense. Hallvard's objection
was that he actually wanted to have non-ascii characters
put into byte literals in their utf-8 encoded forms (at least
as I understand it.)

If I thought about it, I could undoubtedly come up with
use cases where I would find this behavior useful. The
presupposition behind my statement was that those
use cases were overwhelmingly less likely than the
standard uses of byte string literals where a utf-8
encoded "character" would be a problem.

John Roth

>
> Regards,
> Martin




From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 02:32:55 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 16:32:55 +1000
Subject: backward compatibility?
In-Reply-To: <cg94n8$26q$1@panix3.panix.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408212200050.1131-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<cg94n8$26q$1@panix3.panix.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040821233238d82544@mail.gmail.com>

On 21 Aug 2004 23:42:32 -0400, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> It's serious.  OTOH, they'll stay in the language until Python 3.0 comes
> out, and there's nobody forcing you to upgrade.  The useful lifespan of
> a Python version seems to be about three or four years (my company just
> switched from Python 1.5.2 to Python 2.2, so we'll be two full versions
> out of date by the end of the year).

Note also that Python 3.0 (aka Python 3000) isn't even close to being 
started - I suspect  we're at least 4 or 5 years from it happening. And 
there's still going to be at least a couple more major releases in the 2.x 
cycle before then.

See PEP 3000 for the current collection of ideas for Python 3.0.

Anthony


From john at grulic.org.ar  Fri Aug 27 17:43:00 2004
From: john at grulic.org.ar (John Lenton)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:43:00 -0300
Subject: Fun transformation problem
In-Reply-To: <Xns955268B4765A7daleriverhallsystems@192.168.8.150>
References: <pan.2004.08.26.13.24.26.521173@riverhall_nospam_.co.uk>
	<Xns955268B4765A7daleriverhallsystems@192.168.8.150>
Message-ID: <20040827214300.GB9923@grulic.org.ar>

On Fri, Aug 27, 2004 at 09:20:18AM +0000, Dale Strickland-Clak wrote:
> Thanks to everyone for your replies. Very interesting.
> 
> It is not too embarrasing to admit that these were better than we'd come 
> up with.
> 
> My colleague will be getting to grips with a newsreader in the near future 
> and may be along later to express his own gratitude. 

FYI, that goofy dictionary thing you're building is called a 'trie'.


-- 
John Lenton (john at grulic.org.ar) -- Random fortune:
No one can guarantee the actions of another.
		-- Spock, "Day of the Dove", stardate unknown
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From sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au  Sun Aug 22 01:12:37 2004
From: sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au (Sam Holden)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 05:12:37 GMT
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<7x4qmv6cwo.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <slrncigaq5.cj9.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>

On 21 Aug 2004 20:59:35 -0700, Paul Rubin <> wrote:
> aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) writes:
>> >It seems there are quite a few projects aimed to improve Python's
>> >speed and, therefore, eliminate its main limitation for mainstream
>> >acceptance.
>> 
>> What makes you think speed is Python's primary limitation for mainstream
>> acceptance?
>
> Well, whenever I want to write a mainstream application and think of
> using Python, my first reaction is that Python is too slow...

That you have have an irrational first reaction is hardly the "main limitation"
for python.

After all python has been used as the scripting engine for a  number of
commercial games - a domain that certainly cares about speed.

<http://www.pygame.org/interview/stevemoret.shtml> implies that a python script
runs on every frame for at least one commercial game.

-- 
Sam Holden


From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Wed Aug 25 07:45:11 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:45:11 +0200
Subject: module functions list
Message-ID: <cghu3v$afp$02$1@news.t-online.com>

Hi,

this strikes me as a pretty basic question, but google didn't help, so I'm
asking it here:

How do I get a list of functions defined in a module in the module itself?
Like this:

--- module functions.py
def foo():
    return 1

def bar():
    return 1


def all_functions():
    return <some magic code that yields [foo, bar]>

---

The application for this is that I want a bunch of predefined functions for
a small expression interpreter of mine to be collected in one module and
get them all without an explicit "registration" process.

Any ideas?

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From mike at nospam.com  Mon Aug  2 16:48:55 2004
From: mike at nospam.com (Mike Rovner)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 13:48:55 -0700
Subject: How to clear previous console output?
References: <cem5jm$pcs@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <cem9bk$200$1@sea.gmane.org>

(For console output) Use \r.

Example:

for i in range(100):
   print '%s\r' % ' '*20, # clean up row
   print '%d%%' % i, # note ending with comma
print

Note that it works only in real console window, not in simulated one (like
in WinIDE).
That is cross-platform.

HTH,
Mike

Newgene wrote:
> I want to show the progress by print 1% to 100%. But I hope  each
> output will clear the previous output before print, so that I can see
> a dynamic updated display of percentage, instead of print all





From skip at pobox.com  Tue Aug 17 10:22:48 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:22:48 -0500
Subject: Databases: Getting values by column name
In-Reply-To: <o6f9v1-6si.ln1@pilz.hasos.com>
References: <o6f9v1-6si.ln1@pilz.hasos.com>
Message-ID: <16674.5304.561826.138823@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Robert> http://www.devshed.com/c/a/Python/MySQL-Connectivity-With-Python/2/

    Robert> only use database rows as sequences, ie as arrays with numerical
    Robert> index.  This gives you loads of problems when using "select *"
    Robert> and also bad code readability when selecting specific columns.

    Robert> Is there a way to use them as dictionaries, ie with
    Robert> Index-Strings (=column names) as indexes?

Yes, for MySQLdb import the MySQLdb.cursors module then set the cursorclass
arg when you create a connection, like so:

    import MySQLdb
    import MySQLdb.cursors
    ...
    conn = MySQLdb.Connection(host=...,
                              user=...,
                              passwd=...,
                              db=...,
                              cursorclass=MySQLdb.cursors.DictCursorNW,
                              ...)

I think the reason this sort of behavior isn't spelled out in PEP 249 is
because it varies too much from one database to another.  Psycopg (a
PostgreSQL adaptor) does it differently.  Instead of specifying the cursor
type when the connection is created, you instantiate a different cursor
class:

    conn = psycopg.connect("...")
    ...
    cursor = conn.dictcursor()

I imagine there are some databases that either don't support name-based
retrieval very well (or at all), or make it difficult to get at.  You might
get a more solid response on the reasons for this omission from PEP 249 from
the db-sig folks:

    http://www.python.org/sigs/db-sig/

Skip




From sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au  Sun Aug 22 17:46:54 2004
From: sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au (Sam Holden)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 21:46:54 GMT
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<7x4qmv6cwo.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<slrncigaq5.cj9.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>
	<wA7Wc.1348$MR2.6467@news1.mts.net>
Message-ID: <slrncii52e.ng3.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 15:44:57 -0500, Reid Nichol <rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Sam Holden wrote:
>> After all python has been used as the scripting engine for a  number of
>> commercial games - a domain that certainly cares about speed.
> Not the graphics though and that is where the speed is really needed.

True. However, when you run a script for every frame of said graphics
the script needs to run reasonably fast. And that has been done.

Obviously python is not *fast*, it is however, "fast enough" for the
vast majority of applications. I'd argue that for a significant
number of the applications python is not fast enough for, it is 
possible to write a component in C (or C++ or whatever) with a 
python wrapper.

Of course it's not that python is super fast, it's that hardware is
very fast these days. Games have gone from Assembler engines and
C game code to C (C++ even) engines and scripting language game code.

Of course python cod ebeing so much quicker to develop than C code
doesn't gain as much as machine's get faster during development :)

-- 
Sam Holden


From tdelaney at avaya.com  Mon Aug  9 23:52:34 2004
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy))
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:52:34 +1000
Subject: Just Starting.
Message-ID: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01CF3D4A@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

James wrote:

> Hello My name is James and I was wondering if any of you out there can
> recommend a good book or link for beginners?

http://www.python.org/

In the side menu, first link under "Documentation" is "Beginner's Guide"
...

Tim Delaney


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Mon Aug  9 18:49:28 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:49:28 -0700
Subject: file owner id
References: <mailman.1380.1092042651.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1092092176.544950@news.commspeed.net>


"Ajay" <abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.1380.1092042651.5135.python-list at python.org...
> hi!
>
> i have an application that allows admin users to create template files,
> which are stored on the server.
> currently the file are created with the owner "nobody"
> is it possibly to change the owner to be the same as the owner of the web
> account?
> if yes, are there any security risks with doing so - the script changes to
> the web account's owner, creates the file and then changes back.
>
> thanks
>
> cheers
>
> --
> Ajay Brar,
>
not sure what operating system your on but if your worried about security
you could create some sort of alias dictionary,

ailiasdict = {'nobody':'cfcgf1234','sombodyimportant':'pi3.14159'}

then encrypt it and store it to disk.

you then create the file with the owner ailiasdict["nobody"].

Tom




From ksenia at ksenia.nl  Sun Aug 22 05:20:37 2004
From: ksenia at ksenia.nl (Ksenia Marasanova)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:20:37 +0300
Subject: Global config option - import issues again.....
In-Reply-To: <cg9i1e$ojv@odbk17.prod.google.com>
References: <cg9i1e$ojv@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <87781397-F41C-11D8-A0E5-000A957911BC@ksenia.nl>

> How do people deal with swapping languages around at runtime?

I personally didn't wrote any multi-language application yet, but I 
think gettext module is the way to do it: 
http://docs.python.org/lib/module-gettext.html

This webmail application is a good example of using it: 
http://calarts.edu/~elaforge/mail/ . If you download it, take a look at 
i18n.py file.

HTH
Ksenia



From rynt at 9yahoo.com  Wed Aug 18 15:52:27 2004
From: rynt at 9yahoo.com (R Baumann)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:52:27 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <sMWdnWv7qI3oLr7cRVn-hA@megapath.net>


"Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:jQHUc.1529$2L3.505 at newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....
>

I celebrate the 17th anniversary of my 39th birthday in September. ;-)

Started programming in the US Air Force when I was 27.  Assembler on a
Univac 1050-II.

Ruben




From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Sat Aug 14 23:10:01 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:10:01 +1000
Subject: import node into document
Message-ID: <1092539401.411ed409ae40c@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

I have two documents 'policy' and 'dataschema'.
how can i add a node (say, noded) from 'dataschema' as a child to a
particular node in 'policy' (say nodep)
java has importNode, is there an equivalent function in Python. if not, how
do i go about doing it?
just doing nodep.appendChild(noded) throws an error saying they are of
different documents
doing noded.ownerDocument = nodep.ownerDocument also throws an error saying
ownerDocument is a read-only object.

how do i then do the import?

thanks

cheers




----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From jcarlson at uci.edu  Sat Aug 14 13:40:01 2004
From: jcarlson at uci.edu (Josiah Carlson)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:40:01 -0700
Subject: [Python-Dev] def ... decorate
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408140930570.3275@rnd.onego.ru>
References: <20040813135102.63CF.JCARLSON@uci.edu>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0408140930570.3275@rnd.onego.ru>
Message-ID: <20040814000340.63DE.JCARLSON@uci.edu>


> They are important. What I tried to say is that with decorators they sometime
> change. It did not happen with plain def-statement. So resulting signature
> must be in the docstring.

Ahh, but you did:
"Decorators could be destructive and change function completely, so it's
pitiful signature doesn't mean much."

Even when a signature changes, the signature is important both before
and after.  The person who is changing the signature must know the
original, and the person who is using must know the changed.  In both
cases, the signature is important, although the second suffers from a
lack of obvious visual documentation.  This is why, "I believe that any
decorator that destroys a signature willingly should be considered
broken."


> >> I always thought the natural order of definition is value to define first,
> >> definition to follow it.
> >
> >I don't know where this came from, but it is what we already have.
> >def fun(args):
> >    body
> 
> Probably, it comes from the math culture. Even HTML reflects this order.
> Most programming languages also stick to it.

I meant in this discussion.  You brought it up in the scope of
decorating functions, but the vast majority of function definitions
are standard function definitions, which all follow the (name, value)
ordering.


> >> lambda a mistake? lambda a mistake... -OX
> >
> >Yes, lambda a mistake:
> >http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=2959
> 
> Maybe it was mistake to call it "lambda" a in math. But is Windows
> directories are called folders. Terminology tends to downgrade for laymen.

If you read the article, it says that due to the scoping rules in Python
at the time, it wasn't a naming problem, it was that the functionality
shouldn't have been added.


> My mind (and not only mine) is not static. Our discussion changed it.
> The only way to proof a solution is good is by having two or more
> opposite opinions.

Ahh, you have given up on the J3 syntax.  Great.


> >I am not aware of decorators in other languages, but I have kept my nose
> >out of most langauges developed since I discovered Python in 2000.
> 
> This is limiting your experience. In the same period I learned Ocaml alittle
> where function signatures are part of type. Ocaml intrest me because it has
> an efficient compiler (on par with C) but much less typing/functionality
> ratio.

As I already know the languages that are important for what I do (C/C++,
Lisp, Python, SML, Prolog, Mathematica), learning others is not a
priority.  Really, I should have stated myself more clearly in my
original post that you quote; I've browsed through various language
documentations over the last few years (Eiffel, Ocaml, Perl, Rexx, TCL,
etc.), but none of them made me jump out with "wow, that's awesome" as
Python did 4 years ago - which is why I haven't bothered to learn them.


> >> Aren't decorators functional programming everyday feature, when
> >> (in some programming languages) it is normal to define function as
> >> a superposition of simpler ones?
> >
> >That is like saying that all programming is functional.  Is prolog a
> >functional programming language?  No, it is a logic programming language,
> >yet it is common in Prolog to see the following:
> >
> >my_and(a, b) = my_bool(a) and my_bool(b)
> 
> Not sure hat you wanted to express, but I wanted to say that in FP
> languages decorators do not require special syntax as they are just
> normal expressions involving function transformations.

Even non-functional languages can /look/ like functional languages,
composing complex functions and algorithms from simple ones.  Python's
scoping and side-effects, I believe, keep it from being a functional
language.


> Well, LISP doesn't require special syntax for any feature <wink>.

If you want to be technical, Python doesn't require special syntax for
decoration, it just makes it more convenient.  And yes, I forgot about
Lisp.  Thinking about it, most languages with a sort of object
encapsulation ability allow decorations.  While it would be a bit ugly,
one could do function decoration with C++ and the lovely void*.

> P.S. I feel tired by this discussion. And it is c.l.p one,
> not python-dev. As we do not have enough ON TOPIC points
> of disageement, I do not want to continue.

Agreed.

 - Josiah



From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug  9 10:41:52 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 09 Aug 2004 14:41:52 GMT
Subject: how many bytes in an int
References: <9ACRc.1523$bJ2.9739@news1.mts.net>
	<4116f8ee$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<FADRc.1532$bJ2.9871@news1.mts.net>
	<41170cd1$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<41171116$0$8079$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<41172C9A.2020301@jessikat.fsnet.co.uk>
	<41178bde$0$8077$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <41178d30$0$8077$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-09, Grant Edwards <grante at visi.com> wrote:

>> I think struct is really needed.
>
> Like the man said, "struct" doesn't convert to-from integers
> of specified byte lengths.  All it has are the C types "int"
> "long" "long long", etc.  There is no portable way using
> struct to request a 4-byte integer.

I like the "calcsize" suggestion for "portablizing" the struct
method.  Once at program startup you figure out what struct
formats you need for various lengths and Bob's your uncle.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  FIRST, I'm covering
                                  at               you with OLIVE OIL and
                               visi.com            PRUNE WHIP!!


From http  Sun Aug 29 03:36:53 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 29 Aug 2004 00:36:53 -0700
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xzn4gwgea.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7a1o.1a5d2q410jsn2kN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xisb4xnh5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7c1a.tfdm14p3hclcN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xd61benm9.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj82n3.1ylkr3nierngmN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgpj1l$i0f$06$1@news.t-online.com>
	<7xd61b8uh2.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<mailman.2565.1093723065.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7x1xhqg3kb.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<mailman.2575.1093763487.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <7xr7pqe6p6.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

"Terry Reedy" <tjreedy at udel.edu> writes:
> >  I think it's better to extend the syntax, e.g.
> >  import x(a,b) => __import__('x', {'a':None, 'b':None})
> >  import x(a=v1,b=v2)=> __import__('x', {'a':v1, 'b':v2})
> 
> Identifier(args) is currently a call of identifier with args and 
> overloading that syntax to mean somthing similar but different is, to me, 
> even uglier in a different sort of way.

Ok, use brackets instead:  import x[a,b].
Then it's just a matter of overloading the index operator on __import__.


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Thu Aug 26 12:24:39 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:24:39 GMT
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgkeio$spo$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2411.1093517690.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<du7brgyt8hm.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi> <opsdb950eb1v4ijd@musicbox>
	<cgkq0i$3ii$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2428.1093531460.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgkvtr$5l1$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <b9oXc.29215$v86.13435@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"Michael Sparks" <michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cgkvtr$5l1$1 at nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk...
> Anthony Baxter wrote:
>
>
> I suppose instead I could've had:
>
> def identity(actualFunc):
>    def decorate(func):
>       return actualFunc(func)
>    return decorate
>
> class Foo:
>    @staticmethod
>    @identity((memoise,esiomem)[x==1])
>    def Hoo(Who, *args):
>       print "Yoo", Who
>
> Which is nicer, but still pretty hideous. I'd agree that the preceding
> if statement approach is better than a conditional expression.
>

On the contrary, I think it likely that, in the event a module of standard
decorators is eventually provided (I thought I heard something like this in
some prior thread, perhaps on python-dev), that there will need to be some
flavors of nullDecorator such as unchanged and disabled below (I think I
have the decorator syntax down, if not I hope you get the idea):

def unchanged(func):
    "This decorator doesn't add any behavior"
    return func

def disabled(func):
    "This decorator disables the provided function, and does nothing"
    def emptyFunc(*args,**kargs):
        pass
    return emptyFunc

# define this as equivalent to unchanged, for nice symmetry with disabled
enabled = unchanged


Now you could do something like:

globalEnableFlag = True

@( (disabled,enabled)[globalEnableFlag ] )
def specialFunctionFoo()
    pass

or

using:
    (disabled,enabled)[globalEnableFlag ]
def specialFunctionFoo()
    pass



-- Paul





From Jared.Cohen at noaa.gov  Thu Aug 19 13:06:56 2004
From: Jared.Cohen at noaa.gov (Jared Cohen)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:06:56 -0400
Subject: Please help -- Tkinter Scale widget with DoubleVar is acting	weird
Message-ID: <4124DE30.9050205@noaa.gov>

I tried your code, and the exact same problem happened. When I set the 
slider to certain values (for instance, 0.3), the callback would start 
to be invoked when I just moved the mouse over the slider without even 
clicking.
-------------- next part --------------
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From merkosh at hadiko.de  Fri Aug 13 12:36:11 2004
From: merkosh at hadiko.de (Uwe Mayer)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 18:36:11 +0200
Subject: blocking file.readlines() needed
Message-ID: <cfiqlr$3a8$1@news2.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>

Hi,

I am looking for a way to make the call to a file objects readline() method
blocking when there is no more data, until data is appended to the file,
similar to the way 

$ tail -F <system log file>

works.

However, file.readlines() aborts and returns an empty list. 

Any ideas?

Thanks
Ciao
Uwe
        


From heikowu at ceosg.de  Thu Aug  5 12:51:08 2004
From: heikowu at ceosg.de (Heiko Wundram)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 18:51:08 +0200
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051213180.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051213180.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <200408051851.08457.heikowu@ceosg.de>

Am Donnerstag, 5. August 2004 18:29 schrieb Christopher T King:
> They purport to solve the problems of function type declaration
> (class/static), function attributes, runtime type checking, and general
> function mangling, when each of these (save general function mangling)
> already have distinct solutions in nearly every other language.  The first
> three problems are currently implemented as hacks in Python that happen to
> fall under the category of "general function mangling".  Streamlining the
> hack is not the answer.

I don't think they try to solve all the things you state. Rather, it's only 
about general function mangling at compile time. Whatever you need to do for 
function mangling, that's up to you.

And, at least for me, as I stated elsewhere, the syntax is just fine. I've 
tried it out yesterday, porting some code to 2.4a2 which used thread locks 
extensively, and just writing a little class InstanceSynchronizer() which is 
just a Class which defines __call__ (when decorating a function) and gets the 
first parameter from the function call to acquire an instance specific lock 
is certainly the right way to go.

Think of the following: (old style)

class x(object):
	def __init__(self):
		self.lock = threading.RLock()

	def synchronized_method(self):
		self.lock.acquire()
		try:
			<bla>
		finally:
			self.lock.release()

That's just plain horrible compared to what @ decorators can do:

class x(object):
	synchronized = InstanceSynchronizer()

	@synchronized
	def synchronized_method(self):
		<bla>

Writing the InstanceSynchronizer is pretty easy too:

class InstanceSynchronizer(object):

	def __init__(self):
		self._locks = {}
		self._refs = {}

	def _delete_ref(self,ref):
		del self._locks[self._refs[id(ref)][1]]
		del self._refs[id(ref)]

	def __call__(self,f):
		def fsyn(fself,*args,**kwargs):
			try:
				lock = self._locks[id(fself)]
			except KeyError:
				lock = threading.RLock()
				fselfref = weakref.ref(fself,self._delete_ref)
				self._locks[id(fself)] = lock
				self._refs[id(fselfref)] = (fselfref,id(fself))
			lock.acquire()
			try:
				return f(fself,*args,**kwargs)
			finally:
				lock.release()
		return fsyn

This little class takes care of everything needed for instance locks. Writing 
a class that takes care of class locks for functions (in case you need to 
update class data) is easy as pie too.

class ClassSynchronizer(object):

	def __init__(self):
		self._lock = threading.RLock()

	def __call__(self,f):
		def fsyn(*args,**kwargs):
			self._lock.acquire()
			try:
				return f(*args,**kwargs)
			finally:
				self._lock.release()
		return fsyn

Now, if you have these two utility classes at your disposal, you can do the 
following:

class someobject(object):
	__instances__ = {}
	isynchronized = InstanceSynchronizer()
	csynchronized = ClassSynchronizer()

	@csynchronized
	def __init__(self):
		<work on self.__instances__>

	@isynchronized
	@csynchronized
	def do_something(self):
		<work on self.__instances__ and on self>

	@isynchronized
	def do_somethingelse(self):
		<work only on self>

Now tell me that using decorators to do synchronization isn't a lot easier to 
read than the first (old) example is, and also less error-prone (resp. 
acquiring/releasing locks properly and without deadlocks).

Heiko.


From walter at livinglogic.de  Thu Aug 12 12:20:04 2004
From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 18:20:04 +0200
Subject: Python script to generate static site?
In-Reply-To: <hl5lh0pb3u4m47f2bsatc9vigrv7pc7v07@4ax.com>
References: <hl5lh0pb3u4m47f2bsatc9vigrv7pc7v07@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <411B98B4.9020307@livinglogic.de>

Fred wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm sure there are a bunch of them, but googling just returned
> full-fledged CMS that require a DBMS and generate dynamic pages.
> 
> I'd just like a script that would 
> 1. look in a directory for articles in raw HTML,
> 2. generate a cooked output for each page (ie. add header and footer,
> CSS link in HEAD, etc.),
> 3. regenerate the homepage with "Last modified" bit following each
> article's title,
> 4. ready to be uploaded by FTP to a web server that only handles
> static web pages.
> 
> Considering Python's wealth of libraries, it's most likely only a
> couple hours' work, but since I'm pretty much a Python newbie...

You could try XIST (http://www.livinglogic.de/Python/xist/).

The source for this page can be found here:
http://www.livinglogic.de/Python/xist/index.htmlxsc

XIST supports Unicode, XHTML, SVG, XSL-FO, WML etc.

Bye,
    Walter D?rwald




From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Thu Aug 19 11:11:42 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:11:42 +0200
Subject: Tkinter
In-Reply-To: <8e16829.0408190703.1c6845d7@posting.google.com>
References: <8e16829.0408190703.1c6845d7@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408191709390.1138-100000@kleigh.nl>

Roland schreef:

> Salut,
>
>
>       J'utilise LNUX RedHat 9.0 et je n'arrive pas ? utilser Tkinter
> car ? chaque fois que j'essaye de faire executer un code dans lequel
> j'ai import? le module Tkinter, j'obtient:
>                      from tkinter import*
>                      ImportError: No module named tkinter  .
> Je croyais que ce module ?tait int?gr? ? python.

Indeed!

    >>> import tkinter
    Traceback (most recent call last):
      File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
    ImportError: No module named tkinter
    >>> import Tkinter
    >>> print Tkinter.__doc__
    Wrapper functions for Tcl/Tk.

More text omitted.


-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Thu Aug 12 06:24:46 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 10:24:46 GMT
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
	<60dfb6f6.0408111846.615ee9eb@posting.google.com>
	<3YWdnYxLf--ObofcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<cffbbu$amv$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <OzHSc.3413$M8.9@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"Michael Sparks" <michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cffbbu$amv$1 at nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk...
> Peter Hansen wrote:
> > Carl Banks wrote:
> >> One thing that's different is that, in all those cases, the second
> >> block has a keyword that can't appear alone.  You can't have an
> >> except without a try, or an else without an if, but you could have a
> >> def without a decorate.
> ...
> > is this an argument based on presumed difficulties in
> > implementing the idea?
>
> Looking at the wiki it states (as negative points):
>    1 New keyword
>    2 Overkill for the simple case like classmethod
>    3 Many people felt it was wrong use of an identation suite.
>    4 Has the same problem as 5.A, in that the decorate block implicitly
>      affects the following def. This does not occur elsewhere in Python.
>    5 Technical problems with the current grammar parser if a suite
>      *starts* with an optional part. (Ending with an optional part, such
>      as "else:" is OK, but starting with one is not.)
>    6 No implementation currently exists.
>
<snip>
> Item 6 is always the case for any new feature, so I doubt that's the
> real problem - the real problem here strikes me as item 5.
>
> I do wonder how difficult it would be to add though...
>

Looking at the code, it appears that this is how the current '@' syntax is
defined, that a funcdef is optionally preceded by a 'decorators' group,
consisting of one or more 'decorator' (looking at both Grammar/Grammar and
compile.c).

So I think this 'technical problem' is just conjecture.  (Should check with
Anthony Baxter to confirm.)

-- Paul






From josephwinston at mac.com  Wed Aug 25 09:32:21 2004
From: josephwinston at mac.com (Jody Winston)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:32:21 GMT
Subject: Late binding eval()?
References: <20040824142636721-0400@braeburn.themorgue.org>
Message-ID: <m36577mjh6.fsf@frank.xprtcc.com>

Kevin Smith <Kevin.Smith at sas.com> writes:

> I want to evaluate an expression using eval(), but I only want to supply 
> the variable values "on demand."  For example, let's say that I want to 
> evaluate 'x+y'.  Normally, I would create a dictionary containing 'x' 
> and 'y' with their corresponding values and pass it in as the globals or 
> locals.  However, in my application, I'm getting an arbitrary expression 
> from the user.  I thought that I could just create a dictionary-like 
> object and override __getitem__ to look up values in a database as they 
> were called for, but that didn't work.
>
> Another way of doing this would be to parse the expression and find all 
> of the top-level variables.  This could be a little tricky (i.e. [x for 
> x in mylist] would only require 'mylist' to be in the dictionary of 
> globals/locals.
>
> Does anyone have any ideas on how to do this?
>

Here's what I'm doing:

#! /bin/env python

import sys
import os
import tokenize
import keyword
import Numeric

class ReadlineInterface(object):
    """Present an interface that mimics readline for tokenize."""
    
    def __init__(self, source):
        """Construct the instance."""
        
        self.source = source
        self.called = 0
        
    def __call__(self):
        """Return the source if and only if we have not been called
        before."""
        
        if self.called == 0:
            self.called = 1
            return self.source
        else:
            return ""

class Attribute(object):
    def __init__(self,
                 name = None,
                 value = 0):

        self.name = name
        self.value = value
        return

    def coerceToAttribute(value):
        """Returns value if value is an Attribute or an Attribute with
        the value set."""
        
        if isinstance(value, Attribute):
            result = value
        else:
            result = Attribute()
            result.value = value
        return result
   
    coerceToAttribute = staticmethod(coerceToAttribute)

    def __add__(self, other):
        """Overloading of binary addition operator (self + other);
        returns a new BaseAttribute."""
        
        o = Attribute.coerceToAttribute(other)
        result = Attribute()
        result.name = self.name
        result.value = self.value + o.value
        return result

    def __sub__(self, other):
        """Overloading of binary subtraction operator (self - other);
        returns a new Attribute."""
        
        o = Attribute.coerceToAttribute(other)
        result = Attribute()
        result.name = self.name
        result.value = self.value - o.value
        return result

class Equation(object):
    def __new__(cls, *p, **k):
        """Construct a new class and correctly set up the dispatching
        of properties in subclasses."""
        
        self = object.__new__(cls, *p, **k)

        # Correctly set up the dispatching of properties in subclasses.

        cls.equation = property(cls.getEquation,
                                doc = "The equation.")

        cls.created = property(cls.getCreated,
                               doc = "The created variables.")

        cls.keywords = property(cls.getKeywords,
                                doc = "The keywords variable.")

        cls.verbose = property(cls.getVerbose,
                               cls.setVerbose,
                               doc = "The attribute verbose.  When set, the class prints more information.")
        return self
    
    def __init__(self,
                 equation):

        """Construct the instance."""

        self.__equation = equation
        self.__verbose = False

        self.__created = []
        self.__keywords = keyword.kwlist + ['dir',
                                            'len',
                                            'int',
                                            'float',
                                            'repr',
                                            'abs',
                                            'long',
                                            'complex',
                                            'divmod',
                                            'max',
                                            'min',
                                            ] + dir(Numeric)
        return

    def createAttribute(self,
                        name):
        """Build an attribute and save it's name."""
        

        #
        # Return a zeroed but otherwise useless attribute
        #
        
        result = Attribute(name = name,
                           value = 0)

        self.__created.append(name)
        return result

    def localSymbols(self):
        """Return the local symbols used by the equation."""

        l = locals()

        #
        # Add some symbols that will persist
        #
        
        if not l.has_key("keywords"):
            l["keywords"] = self.keywords

        return l
        
    def createSymbols(self):
        """Determine by parsing the equation what attributes need to
        be created."""

        interface = ReadlineInterface(self.equation)

        l = self.localSymbols()
        g = globals()
        k = self.keywords

        try:
            tokens = tokenize.generate_tokens(interface)
        except tokenize.TokenError, msg:
            raise TokenError(msg)

        lastType = None
        lastToken = None
        for (tokenType, token, start, end, line) in tokens:
            if self.verbose:
                print 'Equation.createSymbols: type = %s, token = %s, start = %s, end = %s, line = "%s"' % \
                  (tokenType, token, start, end, line)

            # if we are a name and the last thing that we saw was not an operator named "."
            if (tokenType == tokenize.NAME) and not (lastType == tokenize.OP and lastToken == "."):
                # if we have not been seen before
                if (not token in k) and (not token in l) and (not token in g):
                    l[token] = self.createAttribute(token)
                    
            lastType = tokenType
            lastToken = token

        return g, l

    def getEquation(self):
        """Return the equation."""

        return self.__equation

    def getCreated(self):
        """Return the list of created attributes."""

        return self.__created

    def getKeywords(self):
        """Return the list of words that are keywords."""

        return self.__keywords
    
    def getVerbose(self):
        """Return the state of verbose."""

        return self.__verbose

    def setVerbose(self, value):
        """Set the state of verbose."""

        self.__verbose = value

        return

def main(argv = None):
    if argv is None:
        argv = sys.argv

    userSuppliedEquation = "b.value = 1; c.value = 2;a = b + c"
    equ = Equation(userSuppliedEquation)
    g, l = equ.createSymbols()
    print "Created =", equ.created
    code = compile(userSuppliedEquation, '<input>', 'exec')
    eval(code, g, l)
    print "a =", l['a'].value
    print "b =", l['b'].value
    print "c =", l['c'].value
    
    return
    
if __name__ == "__main__":
    sys.exit(main() or 0)

-- 
Jody Winston


From gherzig at fmed.uba.ar  Wed Aug 18 16:28:43 2004
From: gherzig at fmed.uba.ar (Gerardo Herzig -Departamento de Proyectos Especiales e Internet- Facultad de Medicina)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:28:43 -0300
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <889cbba0.0408181206.1812881c@posting.google.com>
References: <mailman.1859.1092833285.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<889cbba0.0408181206.1812881c@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <200408181728.43540.gherzig@fmed.uba.ar>

30 years old. First program at 11 (Basic) on ZX Spectrum. Still a stinky 
programer :P

Gerardo


From kenneth.m.mcdonald at sbcglobal.net  Sat Aug  7 00:17:03 2004
From: kenneth.m.mcdonald at sbcglobal.net (Kenneth McDonald)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 04:17:03 GMT
Subject: How to initialize instances of subclass of 'str'?
Message-ID: <060820042320172090%kenneth.m.mcdonald@sbcglobal.net>

I'm attempting to create a subclass of 'str' that I can abitrarily
initialize at creation time. As an illustration, this gives the
flavor of what I'm trying to do:

class AlwaysLower(str):
   def __init__(self, s):
      str.__init__(self, s.lower())

The idea is that an AlwaysLower instance should be a string
which is always lowercase; AlwaysLower('A') -> 'a',
AlwaysLower('b') -> 'b', etc. (Of course, the resultant
instances are not _just_ strings, but since they are
subclasses of str, they can be treated and viewed as strings,
as I implicitly do above.)

Unfortunately, the above code doesn't work; the resultant
instance's string value is always s, i.e. the call to 
str.__init__ has no effect.

I realize that I could write a function to do this, but there
are other reasons I want to subclass str. I also realize
I could have a function call AlwaysLower with a lowercase
argument, but I find that inelegant.

I've also tried messing around with __new__, but
gotten only runtime exceptions for my troubles :-).
At the moment, what's really stumping me isn't so much
how to do this, but more the mechanism by which 's' is
being used to initialize the string. It's not being passed
by __init__, so how is it being passed? __new__? As
I say, I couldn't get anywhere with that.

Anyone know of good examples of how to subclass builtins?

Thanks,
Ken McDonald


From martin at v.loewis.de  Sat Aug  7 01:13:00 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 07:13:00 +0200
Subject: Non-ASCII in identifiers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1319.1091832570.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com>	<4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de><10h5hgvpafm8a64@news.supernews.com>	<41133C76.8040302@v.loewis.de><10h6rklt3fa1690@news.supernews.com>	<41137799.70808@v.loewis.de><10h724r20kkeqb2@news.supernews.com>	<4113D8DF.8080106@v.loewis.de>
	<mailman.1319.1091832570.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <411464DC.8060308@v.loewis.de>

Terry Reedy wrote:

> While sympathizing with this notion, I have hitherto opposed it on the
> basis that this would lead to code that could only be read by people within
> each language group.  But, rereading your idea, I realize that this
> objection would be overcome by a reader that displayed for each Unicode
> char (codepoint?) not its native glyph but a roman transliteration. 

I personally consider this objection irrelevant. Yes, it is desirable
that portable libraries use only pronouncable (in English) identifiers.
However, that is no justification for the language to make a policy
decision that all source code in the language needs to use pronouncable
identifiers. Instead, the author of each piece of code needs to make
a decision what kind of identifiers to use. Some people (e.g. children)
don't care a bit if somebody 20km away can read their source code, let
alone somebody 10000km away - those far-away people will never get
to see the code in the first place.

So I doubt there is much need for transliterating source code viewers.
At the same time, it might be a fun project to do.

> Some writing systems also have different number digits, which could also be
> used natively and tranliterated.  A Unicode Python could also use a set of
> user codepoints as an alternate coding of keywords for almost complete
> nativification.  I believe the math symbols are pretty universal (but could
> be educated if not).

Now, this is different story. To implement this, the Python parser needs
to be changed to contain locale information, and one carefully has to
make an implementation so that the same code will run the same way
independent on the locale in which it is executed. This requires that
information about all locales is included in all installations, which
is expensive to maintain.

In addition, alternate keywords might not help so much, since real
integration into the natural language would also require to change
the order of identifiers and keywords - something that I consider
unimplementable.

Regards,
Martin


From rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm  Wed Aug 18 11:32:37 2004
From: rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm (Roel Schroeven)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:32:37 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <pEKUc.217884$Lw4.10416253@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

Lucas Raab wrote:

> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....

29, but I don't know if I qualify for 'Python programmer'... I use C++ 
professionally, and use Python only for small scripts and for some small 
simple hobby-projects.

-- 
"Codito ergo sum"
Roel Schroeven


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug 20 07:03:35 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 07:03:35 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <dpWdnT7p6KbzlbjcRVn-jw@powergate.ca>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<10ia1a9jm9tkuca@corp.supernews.com>
	<dpWdnT7p6KbzlbjcRVn-jw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <84GdneSa3r-TR7jcRVn-tw@powergate.ca>

Peter Hansen wrote:

> Jeff Shannon wrote:
> 
>> My votes:  J2   J2  E2
> 
> I second that.  (J2 J2 E2)

I believe that the result the direction this is taking is
inevitable: a widely split vote with no consensus.  I did
think there was much more agreement about which one was the
best alternative, warts and all, to @pie and which one was
therefore the most likely to get any attention at all from
Guido.  I also thought people had a better grasp of which
ones had already been *rejected* fairly conclusively.

Don't people who are voting for the obscure ones understand
that this is likely to result in a no-decision, and therefore
a decision for @pie by default?

I'd like to change my vote to J2 J2 J2.

-Peter


From peter at engcorp.com  Wed Aug 18 21:02:07 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 21:02:07 -0400
Subject: Newbie question about file input
In-Reply-To: <cg0a9r$5or$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
References: <cfqj3s$cti$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <cft2f9$ii0$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408171010590.548-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
	<cft6vv$khm$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
	<4122328e$0$8079$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<cfvtf9$sku$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
	<pan.2004.08.18.19.18.24.431527@gmx.net>
	<cg0a9r$5or$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
Message-ID: <aqOdnX9iyaKMYb7cRVn-jA@powergate.ca>

Aaron Deskins wrote:
> Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware that "\n" is whitespace. I'm still a 
> programming beginner and learning everyday! Any other whitespace 
> characters I should know about?

c:\>python
 >>> import string
 >>> string.whitespace
'\t\n\x0b\x0c\r '
 >>> len(string.whitespace)
6

That's ASCII TAB, LF, VT, FF, CR, and SPACE.

-Peter


From xtian at toysinabag.com  Sun Aug  8 23:49:10 2004
From: xtian at toysinabag.com (xtian)
Date: 8 Aug 2004 20:49:10 -0700
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar, but for what exactly?
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
	<4115b53a$1@nntp0.pdx.net> <4116239e$1@news.012.net.il>
Message-ID: <d111eafa.0408081949.3c28a465@posting.google.com>

Avner Ben <avner at skilldesign.com> wrote in message 
> The "property" call resembles both classmethod, staticmethod and 
> instancemethod, but cannot be eliminated using the new function 
> decorator syntax, because of its m:1 nature  - one property binds 
> together a getter, a setter etc., where staticmethod etc. change the 
> status of one function in one way.
> 
[snip]

> Talking about properties, I like the C# way of defining them, which is 
> straightforward and readable. The property begins like a method, but has 
> no argument list and includes a getter function with no arguments and a 
> setter function with one argument. Adapted to Python, it would look 
> something like:
> 
> class hasProperty:
> 	def __init__(self,aProperty='')
> 		self.aProperty = aProperty
> 	def AProperty:
> 		def get(self):
> 			return self.aProperty
> 		def set(self,value):
> 			self.aProperty = value
> obj = hasProperty()
> obj.AProperty = 'test'
> print obj.AProperty

I'm not sure that this application of the new syntax is much worse
than what you've got... (it *is* a bit hacky in that it's calling the
function it's wrapping, but there you go).

>>> def property_(f):
	return property(*f())

>>> class DecorationTest(object):
	def __init__(self):
		self._foo = 1
		
	@property_
	def foo():
		def get(self):
			print "get"
			return self._foo
		def set(self, val):
			print "set"
			self._foo = val
		return get, set

	
>>> t = DecorationTest()
>>> t.foo
get
1
>>> t.foo = 3
set
>>> t.foo
get
3


What do people think of something like this?

Cheers,
xtian


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Aug 31 20:54:52 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:54:52 -0400
Subject: Give * operator "deep copy"
References: <f8097096.0408311154.ae06a5b@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <ch36kv$2h1$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Nick Jacobson" <nicksjacobson at yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:f8097096.0408311154.ae06a5b at posting.google.com...
> This question is with regard to the * operator as used for sequence
> concatenation.

* is specifically a repetition operator.  And as you wrote, n*seq is a 
sequence operation and not specifically a list operation.  Any sensible 
discussion of changing its semantics, even though completely hypothetical 
(since this will not happen for the foreseeable future), must be in the 
context of sequences, and not just lists.

The purpose of n*seq is to compactly specify a repetitious sequence and do 
so in a way such that the interpreter can efficiently create the requested 
result.  Here are two realistic examples:

>>> 70*'-' # output separator
'----------------------------------------------------------------------'
>>> 20*[0] # initialized vector
[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0]

> There's the well-known gotcha:

The gotcha arises in the context of 'multiplying' a sequence containing a 
mutable sequence.  It gotcha arises from the conjunction of three factors:
1. the desire to create a 2D structure with a shortcut operation intended 
to construct 1D sequences.
2. the mistake of ignoring identity as an important property for mutable 
objects and as a part of the definition of 'repetitious' for sequences of 
such objects
3. the mistake of taking 'container' too literally.  Tuples and lists are 
like rosters, not rooms.  A student can only be in one room (at a time) but 
can simultaneously be on the roster of multiples classes and clubs.  If, 
for example, a student gets an honor, then every class and club 
'containing' that student now 'contains' an honored member.  What rosters 
actually contain are some sort of identifier for each student, not the 
students themselves.

> a = [[1, 2]]
> b = a*3
> b[0][0] = 4
> print b
>
> Result:
> [[4, 2], [4, 2], [4, 2]]

Because b is a repetition of the mutable content of a as requested.

> When you wanted:
> [[4, 2], [1, 2], [1, 2]]

If one does not want object repetition (as opposed to value repetition), 
then one should not use the object repetition operator.  Use a loop to 
create different lists instead.

> My question is, since b = a*3 is equivalent to b = a + a + a,

The equivalence is quite limited.  'n*a' is valid code.  'a+a+...+a n 
times' is not, so 'n*a' is result equivalent instead to an explicit loop or 
list comprehension.  Furthermore, the sequential addition falls into the 
O(n*n) runtime trap, which the O(n) repetition operator is given to us to 
avoid.

> why not use deep copies of a?

You seem to be saying 'since multiplication is a handy and speedy shorthand 
for repeated addition, let us change it to mean to something else.' ??

> That is, let b = a*3 be equivalent to:
> b = copy.deepcopy(a) + copy.deepcopy(a) + copy.deepcopy(a)

Part of Python's design is to not create/copy objects unless explicitly 
requested.  And certainly not deepcopies!

> It seems much more likely that someone would want to create copies of
> an item, rather than inserting the same item several times into the
> list.

For characters in a string, the distinction is not especially meaningful. 
For strings (in a non-string sequence), tuples, numbers, and other 
non-mutables, copies are a waste of time and space and reuse of one is 
exactly what one should want!  Again, * is not just for lists, either as 
container or containee.

> If this has been previously discussed/documented, please point me to
> where I can read about it.

The meaning of n*seq is documented in the ref manual.  The buggy use of it 
comes up on the newsgroup fairly often.  Try googling the group archives.

Terry J. Reedy





From ted at soleburymountain.com  Mon Aug 23 20:18:40 2004
From: ted at soleburymountain.com (tdi)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 17:18:40 -0700
Subject: How does a "script" differ from a "program" or "subroutine"?
Message-ID: <cge1h0$8qd@odbk17.prod.google.com>

Ok, stupid question for the day. I'm reading the interview with Steve
Moret and he says: "Once a lot of scripts started going in we knew
there was no way we could back out of using Python."

I'm just getting into Python and am wondering if I'm missing something
or this is just a semantic issue.

Thanks.
-Ted



From fumanchu at amor.org  Sun Aug 22 00:51:09 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:51:09 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WEDONE?
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E22@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Paul Rubin wrote:
> "Paul McGuire" <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> writes:
> > Please start giving some thought to what the 'decorate' 
> keyword should be.
> 
> Looks like "declare" to me ;-)

I agree, for reasons which will become clear in the proposal draft.

I'd be most interested to hear arguments _against_ "declare", if there
are any.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Tue Aug  3 09:58:46 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 09:58:46 -0400
Subject: how do i  do this - stream file
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1083.1091521022.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1083.1091521022.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408030946170.4514-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Ajay wrote:

> I have the script to do the signing and pickle the signature into a file,
> but how do i allow the user to download it?

Instead of pickling it to a file, pickle it to a string (using dumps).  
Then you can change your script to a CGI script like the following:

#!/usr/local/bin/python	<-- replace this with the real location of Python
				on your server
import sys
from pickle import dumps

<do stuff>

mydata = dumps(<something>)

sys.stdout.write('Content-type: application/x-pickle\n\n')
sys.stdout.write(mydata)

That first sys.stdout.write is all that's needed to make a basic CGI
script: the Content-type line tells the web browser what type of
information to expect (the MIME type).  Then you can just send whatever 
data you like (this works with print statements too; but remember that 
they append a \n to your data).

For normal web pages, the MIME type is text/html.  The type
application/x-pickle is just something I made up, since there is no MIME
type corresponding to pickled data.  You may even consider just sending 
the signature as text and use the standard MIME type text/plain.

You should put your script in the cgi-bin/ directory on your web 
server, and set its executable bit if it's a Unix server.



From prudek at bvx.cz  Sat Aug 21 10:00:04 2004
From: prudek at bvx.cz (Milos Prudek)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:00:04 +0200
Subject: popen child termination
In-Reply-To: <20040821131250.GC1458@unpythonic.net>
References: <412723B7.1080002@bvx.cz> <20040821131250.GC1458@unpythonic.net>
Message-ID: <41275564.8000701@bvx.cz>


No. I know I could use os.system().

My motivation was curiosity: why this does not work?

I thought that popen is simply more powerful than system(), a superset 
of os.system() if you will.

Thanks for explaining that I cannot achieve this with os.popen (2,3,4).

-- 
Milos Prudek


From cybermanxu at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 25 12:59:49 2004
From: cybermanxu at hotmail.com (Jinming Xu)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:59:49 -0500
Subject: counterpart for Python None in C++ side
Message-ID: <BAY9-F11dvJ8c62D3om00020afb@hotmail.com>

Hi Folks,

Could any of you please teach me what's the counterpart of Python None in 
C++ side? Since I need to manipulate a Python None in C++.

Thanks a lot,

Jinming Xu

_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to 
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement



From cce at clarkevans.com  Mon Aug 23 11:58:08 2004
From: cce at clarkevans.com (Clark C. Evans)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:58:08 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
Message-ID: <20040823155808.GA71531@prometheusresearch.com>

Just about average I guess.... 35 very soon

On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 10:35:53PM +0000, Roel Schroeven wrote:
| number of datapoints: 94
| mean: 35.4
| standard deviation: 12.6


From jsmith at thebigwave.net  Mon Aug 16 23:53:50 2004
From: jsmith at thebigwave.net (John Smith)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 20:53:50 -0700
Subject: Using PyObject_CallObject on an Instantiated Class
Message-ID: <616e5a5e.0408161953.2a07e9d7@posting.google.com>

Greetings All,

I have something similiar to this:

Foo.py
class Foo(object):
    def function(self):
        pass

Bar.py
class Bar(Foo):
    def function(self):
        self.variable = self.variable + 1

Bleen.py
def GetBar():
    package = __import__('Directory.Bar')
    module = getattr(package, 'Bar')
    classobj = getattr(module, 'Bar')
    return classobj()

>From C++, I call
    PyObject* pBar = PyObject_CallMethod(pBleen, "GetBar"); // Not
exactly but close enough

Now, I'd like to save off some pointers to this instance of
Bar.function so that I can call it without the lookup overhead of the
PyObject_CallMethod (IE: using PyObject_CallObject)

However, Anything that I try to do fails.
>From python, foo.__dict__ is empty, and foo.__class__.__dict__ refers
to the base class obviously.  If I do the equivilant from C++ of:

PyObject* sClass = PyString_FromString("__class__");
PyObject* pClass = PyObject_GetAttr(m_pObject, sClass);
PyObject* sDict = PyString_FromString("__dict__");
m_pDictionary = PyObject_GetAttr(pClass, sDict);

Then m_pDictionary shows as empty in PyDict_Next() (Probably because
it is dictproxy)

So given that I'd have a few thousand Bars() each in it's own C++
class that would like to have a PyObject* to function() that would
contain it's own 'self.variable' how would I get the pointer to it so
that I could call PyObject_CallObject on it?

Thanks!
-John


From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Wed Aug 25 17:26:19 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 23:26:19 +0200
Subject: Dynamic command on Menu items?
References: <2e3fe5bf.0408251154.74bc6243@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgj05d$7ud$01$2@news.t-online.com>


You could do it like this (untested):

class FunClosure:
    def __init__(self, f, args):
        self.f = f
        self.args = args
    def __call__(self):
        self.f(self.args)

M.menu.add_command(label=l, command=FunClosure(f, [p]))

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From fperez528 at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 12 17:04:07 2004
From: fperez528 at yahoo.com (Fernando Perez)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:04:07 -0600
Subject: drop into the interpreter
References: <MoPSc.848$PG2.811334@twister.tampabay.rr.com>
Message-ID: <cfgm07$bbt$2@peabody.colorado.edu>

Hoang Do wrote:

> is there a facility to inspect the run-time of a python script?
> Essentially, it would execute a script to a set specific point and then drop
> into the interpreter.  Something like a "Stop" or "Break"?

ipython has a mode designed specifically for this:

http://ipython.scipy.org/doc/manual/node9.html

Best,

f


From cmedcoff at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 10 19:52:40 2004
From: cmedcoff at hotmail.com (cmedcoff at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 19:52:40 -0400
Subject: how to dispatch objects depending on their class 
References: <4118dd4a$1@maser.urz.unibas.ch>
Message-ID: <rI6dnT82JZZXwoTcRVn-sA@wideopenwest.com>

Visitor Pattern?




From apavluck at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 08:27:08 2004
From: apavluck at gmail.com (Alex  Pavluck)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 05:27:08 -0700
Subject: training classes in Atlanta, GA?
Message-ID: <cgcnqs$41h@odah37.prod.google.com>

Does anyone know if there are training classes for a PYTHON beginner in
Atlanta, GA?  I need it to not be too expensive and after 5 or
weekends!  

Thanks!

Alex



From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Wed Aug 18 00:15:47 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 04:15:47 GMT
Subject: Problem with floating point precision
References: <ec6dce8b.0408170538.1f0211d2@posting.google.com>
	<10i4c1lrvd3rm9b@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <9pl5i0hkelivuuv867igo343eqnghkd8tl@4ax.com>

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 12:19:50 -0400, "John Roth"
<newsgroups at jhrothjr.com> wrote:

>"j_mckitrick" <j_mckitrick at bigfoot.com> wrote in message
>news:ec6dce8b.0408170538.1f0211d2 at posting.google.com...
>> I checked the docs, but found nothing about floating point issues.
>>
>> I am working on an app that deals with currency values, and only does
>> addition and subtraction (no division).  But I am starting to see
>> values that should be the same failing a compare!  What is the
>> workaround or correct way to compare 2 floats?  It worked fine for
>> months, then suddenly starting acting odd.  I might have upgraded
>> Python somewhere in between, I can't recall.
>
>The basic issue here is that you shouldn't be using floats
>for currency. Granted, lots of people do, but it will eventually
>run into exactly the problem you're describing.
>
>The reason is that currency is best handled by some form of
>arithmetic that works with discrete quantities, while floats are
>intended to be used with continuous quantities (like scientific
>and engineering measurements).
>
>There's a floating decimal package in 2.4 that is intended
>to eventually (in 2.5 maybe?) be the base of a currency
>package. However, that doesn't help today.

@$#,###.##
import decimal

I believe wil be the syntax for getting at it ;)

Art


From arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE  Wed Aug 25 13:26:17 2004
From: arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE (Arien Malec)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:26:17 GMT
Subject: PEP318: radical notion
References: <Xns954E72EC48C5Earienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>
	<412a4222$0$293$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<d3247b7a.0408241413.55b34cb2@posting.google.com>
	<cgi4vh$4q7$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Xns95506A2DDD82Carienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.29>

Michael Sparks <michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk> wrote in
news:cgi4vh$4q7$1 at nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk: 

> Arien Malec wrote:
> ...
>> Is there a valid use case that supports arbitrary magical
>> non-metadata transformations of standalone functions?
> 
> 2 use cases (in addition to others people have mentioned) I can think
> of off the top of my head:
>    * Adding call tracing to specific functions without disturbing the
>      code.
>    * Wrapping generator functions so that they can recieve data in an
>      IPC manner.

PEP318 = AOP by another name?

I can think of a couple of workaround for the issue you raise:

1) Allow a "module metaclass" -- something that can intercept function
defs at a module level, read metadata, and apply necessary
transformations 

2) Have a default class that standalone functions are static members of,
which can have a default metaclass associated with it. 

I personally think that separating metadata from transformations is a
much cleaner approach than using the transformation implementation for
everything. 

Arien


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Tue Aug 31 22:07:47 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 01 Sep 2004 04:07:47 +0200
Subject: string.maketrans().lower()
Message-ID: <HBF.20040901ee1r@bombur.uio.no>

I have a translation table from
  tr = string.maketrans(...)
and want a table which produces the same characters lowercased.

`tr.lower()' works - at least with Python 2.3 - but is that will
that remain reliable?  Or should I use something like this?

 string.maketrans("".join(map(chr, xrange(256))),
                  "".join(map(chr, xrange(256))).translate(tr).lower())

BTW, is there a simpler way to write "".join(map(chr, xrange(256)))?

-- 
Hallvard


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Wed Aug 25 10:17:51 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:17:51 GMT
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>
	<mailman.2330.1093405781.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ah7pi0pccunvnve6l2a38np7lvkibmoou2@4ax.com>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:38:28 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com>
wrote:


>Well, what I proposed there is more substantial than this, and requires 
>a more significant change to the Python system to accomodate.
>
Someone opined, I think in this thread, that the fact that the only
current alternatives to "fix" the problem that alpha 2 syntax
addresses are so so-so, by almost everybody's standards, indicates a
deeper "bug" in Python.

Athony seems to consider the current placement of the doc string a
"bug".

So there is at least *something* here.

My sense is that you are trying to zero in on it, before Python
commits itself to a workaround.

It would be selling Guido short to think that we has not considered
all this.  

On the other hand, he has not communicated much about it - so it is
hard to know for sure.

So I wish you luck in the digging.

Art


From bart_nessux at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 19 21:52:33 2004
From: bart_nessux at hotmail.com (Bart Nessux)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:52:33 -0400
Subject: stopping windows services
Message-ID: <cg3lgl$eou$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>

Can Python be used to stop windows services? I'm writing a script to 
automaically remove some troublesome Symantec software, but before 
running the main removal script, I need to kill some services.

Thanks,
Bart


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Tue Aug 10 16:28:51 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:28:51 -0400
Subject: decorators vs GIL
In-Reply-To: <cfba8n$1eb$1@news.eusc.inter.net>
References: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>
	<0bidnfbR2_PZOIjcRVn-pA@giganews.com>
	<e69d3ed2040808011667ddee7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.1464.1092156423.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cfb4u4$okp$1@eol.dd.chalmers.se>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408101504070.9982-100000@ccc2.wpi.edu>
	<cfba8n$1eb$1@news.eusc.inter.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408101622050.11945-100000@ccc2.wpi.edu>

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, Daniel Dittmar wrote:

> Christopher T King wrote:
> > The real reason behind the GIL is that the Python interpreter is not
> > re-entrant; it keeps internal state in a global structure
> 
> Another reason is reference counting, which must be synchronized.

Forgot about that; a global reference count lock might work well, but this
could negatively impact performance in the case of things like argument
tuples.  Perhaps internal objects that are guaranteed to be thread-local
can skip the reference-count-locking step, but I'm not sure how many (if
any) objects can guarantee this.



From jess.austin at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 20:35:33 2004
From: jess.austin at gmail.com (Jess Austin)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 17:35:33 -0700
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>
	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>
	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>
	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b8ad139e.0408261420.22d14998@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.2478.1093564289.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b8ad139e.0408271635.6b76e9b7@posting.google.com>

Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.2478.1093564289.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> Nope, that was me alright.  I don't want a function to have access to 
> it's metadata.  Nothing's changed about that.  I want to be able to 
> specify a function's metadata inside the function def, where it seems to 
> most appropriately belong.

So you have:

def foo(x):
    __meta_variable__ = 42
    variable = 5
    return dir()

And you're volunteering to explain to a newbie, or even a nearly
intermediate programmer like myself, why the list that is returned
from this function contains 'x' and 'variable' but not
'__meta_variable__'?  I'm sorry, but this is unreadable and is a
dramatic break from Python convention.

A variable binding inside a block is available in that block and in
contained blocks (method blocks aren't properly understood as being
contained within the class block), after the statement setting the
variable has executed.  A variable defined inside a block is not
available outside it without indexing through another binding created
by an import or class statement.  This makes Python code easy to read.
 You propose to turn this on its head for a particular class of
variables defined within function blocks.  No amount of reasoning or
argumentation will justify such a maneuver.

> Others seem to want to specify a function's metadata outside of the 
> function def, which just doesn't seem pythonic (IMO).

If you really understood Python's scoping rules, you would know that
this opinion is the opposite of the truth.  Of all the current
incarnations of function "metadata", only one may be set within the
function, and that one is not set using a standard binding statement:

>>> def bar():
...     """docstrings are the exception not the rule"""
...     __meta_doc__ = """Please don't assume otherwise"""
...
>>> dir(bar)
['__call__', '__class__', '__delattr__', '__dict__', '__doc__',
'__get__', '__getattribute__', '__hash__', '__init__', '__module__',
'__name__', '__new__', '__reduce__', '__reduce_ex__', '__repr__',
'__setattr__', '__str__', 'func_closure', 'func_code',
'func_defaults', 'func_dict', 'func_doc', 'func_globals', 'func_name']

In the returned list, only '__doc__' was affected by characters in the
function suite, and those characters did not comprise a binding
statement within the function block.  So in this respect '__doc__' is
not an exception to the rules about name binding in function blocks
either.

I think you're getting confused via a false analogy between function
blocks and class blocks.  It's true that bindings set within a class
block are accessible through class or instance objects.  This stateful
binding access is what is fundamental about classes, while
operator-associated method names are sugar, or "magic" if you prefer. 
Function block binding statements are instructions for function
_execution_, class block binding statements are instructions for class
_creation_, and there's the difference.  Any meta-meaning that the
actual name used in a binding statement might have is purely
incidental, in that the function or class is created in the same
fashion whether a given name has a magic meaning or not.  Certain
multiple-underscore names do change the behavior of a class, but only
one relatively hackish name (__metaclass__) changes how it is created.
 Class statements have to deal with creation because they have state,
thus they must have an initial state.  Functions do not have state,
although the objects we use to access them (function or generator
objects) from the _outside_ do.  It seems hard to support pushing
bindings with persistent state into the function block when it has
never had this before.

I appreciate your persistence in error; it has provided me with the
opportunity to gain knowledge in an area about which I previously had
only intuition.  b-)  In broader commentary, as I've said, pep318
isn't really about metadata.  One reason is that metadata isn't that
important.  Data only needed by an outside system should be kept
there.  If any layer of code uses particular data, that layer should
be responsible for maintaining such.  Python already accomodates this
more correct style of information management, and pep318 might
increase this accomodation.

yours,
Jess


From arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE  Fri Aug 13 12:38:32 2004
From: arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE (Arien Malec)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:38:32 GMT
Subject: PEP 318 decorators are not Decorators
References: <Xns9543CB4CF5EDFarienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.7>
	<cfhsri$a1q$1@news1.wdf.sap-ag.de>
Message-ID: <Xns95446284A8DA2arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.29>

"Daniel Dittmar" <daniel.dittmar at sap.com> wrote in news:cfhsri$a1q$1
@news1.wdf.sap-ag.de:

> Arien Malec wrote:
>> decorator. One of the issues is that the Decorator pattern is more
> 
> The term decorator as used in the current discussion comes from compiler
> writing. You have a syntax 'tree' which gets 'decorated' with additional
> attributes.

1) That's not mentioned in PEP 318
2) That's in disagreement with
http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators
3) Won't most programmers think GoF decorators before compiler syntax tree 
decorators?

Arien


From antoinemaillard at free.fr  Mon Aug  2 05:34:55 2004
From: antoinemaillard at free.fr (Antoine Maillard)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 11:34:55 +0200
Subject: building python extensions for windows : python23_d.lib file is
	missing
Message-ID: <410e0b05$0$1895$636a15ce@news.free.fr>

Hi
We're looking to make our own python modules for windows Python 23.
We use swig and Visual Studio C++ for making the dlls. But when trying to
compile, it says it's been missing a "Python23_d.lib" file.
According to the tutorial we did
(http://www.geocities.com/foetsch/python/extending_python.htm#abstract),
it's a problem with the fact we use the release version of python and not a
d?bug version.
But we don't know how to go through this (perhaps recompiling a debug
version ... but we don't know how to do).
Did someone get this problem and walk throug it ?
Thanks for your help
Antoine Maillard & Andr? Garenne




From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Fri Aug 13 03:29:00 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:29:00 +0200
Subject: {SPAM?} Decorators? Why have a special construct to support a
 pattern?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1594.1092380558.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1594.1092380558.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2o38d8F6b1veU2@uni-berlin.de>

Simon Wittber wrote:
> Decorators...
> 
> Why do we need a special construct to support a pattern? 
> 
> Do lots of people really use decorators that often?

I think that with decorators available, their usage will greatly
increase. With having to write foo = decorator(foo), I daresay nobody
got the idea to write function-wrappers that function like this.

Reinhold

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz  Mon Aug 16 23:49:47 2004
From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:49:47 +1200
Subject: Wink-decorator? (Re: [OT] Keyboard layout, was Re: PEP318)
In-Reply-To: <1092455506.274331@yasure>
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cffdba$ko0$04$1@news.t-online.com>
	<Y+l*oRTrq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
	<roy-439B02.10321912082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<L-C*RvUrq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
	<m3y8kjmfli.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk> <1092455506.274331@yasure>
Message-ID: <2oddirF9gl5iU1@uni-berlin.de>

Donn Cave wrote:
> Quoth Michael Hudson <mwh at python.net>:
> ...
> | Huh?  On *my* mac <wink> @ is shift-2 and # is option-3.
> 
> What kind of keyboard has a key for <wink> @?

Aha! Folks have been calling it a "pie" here, but maybe
the @ in @decorator is secretly meant to represent a
wink? That would explain a lot...

-- 
Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept,
University of Canterbury,	
Christchurch, New Zealand
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg



From insert at spam.here  Fri Aug  6 13:54:45 2004
From: insert at spam.here (Doug Holton)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 12:54:45 -0500
Subject: compromise? keywords for static/class, move decorators to top of
 function
Message-ID: <Oo2dnUOZI8VmWI7cRVn-sA@comcast.com>

First let me say please see the wiki page about python decorators if you 
haven't already: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/PythonDecorators

I propose (and others have) that built-in features have keyword support, 
like static and class methods.  Also, I believe it is more readable if 
decorators, especially longer ones, are moved to the top of the function 
body, just like docstrings, instead of coming before the function is 
even declared.  Whether you use @ or [] is still open.

def classmethod getratio (arg1, arg2):
     @accepts(int,int)
     @returns(float)
     ...

def classmethod getratio (arg1, arg2):
     [accepts(int,int), returns(float)]
     ...

This has these advantages: the function declaration itself is still the 
first and most important thing, decorators are indented just like the 
body of the function so it is more clearly a part of the function.

In the future though, if you add an "as" keyword for adapters, you could 
just say:

def classmethod getratio (arg1 as int, arg2 as int) as float:
     ...

contrast that simple example with this, which is kind of ugly:

@accepts(int,int)
@returns(float)
@classmethod #has to be last in order?
def getratio (arg1, arg2):
     ...


From da_rosser at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  2 11:27:35 2004
From: da_rosser at yahoo.com (Doug Rosser)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 08:27:35 -0700
Subject: Mucking with the calling scripts namespace (For a good reason,
	honest!)
Message-ID: <e08cd05f.0408020727.15ce4356@posting.google.com>

I'm writing a fairly complicated test framework and keeping
configuration data inside ini files that are parsed at runtime by the
ConfigParser module.

For example, there would be a section similar to the following

[servers]
server1:{'hostname':'alpha','os':'posix'}
server2:{'hostname':'beta','os':'win'}

[clients]
client1:{'hostname':'ichi','os':'posix'}
client2:{'hostname':'ni','os':'posix'}

As I read the configuration file, I don't actually create instances,
but use the data to check "what's out there" to make sure the physical
network environment has the bits and pieces required to run a
particular test. This is a sort of "go/no-go" resource check.

Assuming that everything is correct with the physical network
environment, I want my testers to be able to refer to these resources
in their python scripts by the names in the ini file, like so:

myTest.checkResources() # Read the config file and associate names
with real
                        # life instances

server1.doSomething()   # Note how I have cleverly saved myself from
declaring
                        # "server1" because the module myTest has
inserted
                        # it into the right namespace :-)

Down to business: How do I write a module that can insert these names
into the calling script's namespace at runtime? Is this even possible
in Python?

da rosser
-- We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams --


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug  6 11:37:07 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 11:37:07 -0400
Subject: [Newby question] List comprehension
In-Reply-To: <HBF.20040806weia@bombur.uio.no>
References: <mailman.1274.1091799582.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<pan.2004.08.06.13.56.01.249870@xs4all.nl>
	<HBF.20040806weia@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <ecCdnfd3S9s5OI7cRVn-tA@powergate.ca>

Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
> Eelco Hoekema wrote:
> 
>>Batista, Facundo schreef:
>>>Now, explain me why a list comprehension is better here.
>>
>>Are they better? Don't know. In Dive into Python, Mark Pilgrim states
>>compared to list comprehensions, for loops are a waste of time. Not
>>sure what he means by that, though.
> 
> List comprehensions are faster.

Time for the old refrain "Premature optimization is the root of
all evil in programming."  (Knuth)

List comprehensions may be faster, but that is never a valid reason,
in isolation, for choosing one construct over another.

If (a) list comprehensions can't do this, or (b) one has to jump
through hoops and make the construct completely unreadable to make
it work, then list comprehensions are completely unsuited to the
task at hand.

A loop, on the other hand, works just fine and is very readable.
Use a loop.

-Peter


From mharlow-dated-1093786836.bbea92 at grephead.com  Thu Aug 26 10:11:58 2004
From: mharlow-dated-1093786836.bbea92 at grephead.com (matt okeson-harlow)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:11:58 -0000
Subject: Am I on the right path
References: <mailman.2378.1093457828.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrncirrtb.mkm.mharlow-dated-1093786836.bbea92@minerva.grephead.com>

On 2004-08-25, Batista, Facundo <FBatista at uniFON.com.ar> wrote:
> [ADE]
>
> #- The program is supposed to randomly choose an ip address and 
> #- try and make a
> #- conection on port 80
>
> You can generate random IP like this, also:
>
>>>> import random
>>>> '.'.join([str(random.randint(0,255)) for x in range(4)])
> '168.240.211.252'

[snip]

to keep from duplicating ips...

import random

def newip():
    ip = '.'.join([str(random.randint(0,255)) for x in range(4)])
    return ip

oldip = {}

for i in range(10):
    ip = newip()
    if not oldip.has_key(ip):
        print ip
        oldip[ip] = 1



-- 
matt okeson-harlow
http://technomage.net


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Tue Aug 31 04:53:59 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 08:53:59 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<e69d3ed2040 <HBF.20040830aznn@ <ch09aa$1lj$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <loom.20040831T094946-798@post.gmane.org>

Paul Morrow <pm_mon <at> yahoo.com> writes:
> Actually, these look like assignments to local *magic* variables.
> There's the difference.  The double underscores before and after each
> name loudly proclaims that these variables are not like 'normal'
> variables.  They're special in some way.  That's a Python convention.

Note that you're asking for __xxx__ variables to be assignments to the 
function's attributes even though they're in the part of the function that 
gets executed when the function is *called*. Let's look at what examples of 
this behavior might look like for some different objects.

# in the part of a function that is executed when the function gets called
def f():
    __author__ = 'Steve'

# in the part of a class that is executed when the class gets called
class S(object):
    def __new__(cls):
        __author__ = 'Steve'

# in the part of an object that is executed when the object gets called
class T(object):
    def __call__(self):
        __author__ = 'Steve'

Note that the parallel I'm trying to draw here is that in each of these cases, 
the __author__ is assigned to in the part of the definition that gets executed 
when the object is *called*.  Thus f(), S(), and T()() all execute the code 
block containing the __author__ assignment.  Presumably you wouldn't want the 
__author__ statements to assign to the class or the object in the second two 
examples?

Of course, what you really want is for these things to be assigned to in the 
part that gets executed when the object is *defined*.  For a class, this is 
clearly:

class S(object):
    __author__ = 'Steve'

But what gets executed when a function is defined?  Just the def statement, 
the binding of the function name to its body.  To be consistent with classes 
then, your assignment to __author__ should be *in* the def statement.  So what 
you're suggesting, basically, is that the def statement should be extended to 
include any __xxx__ assignments following the docstring. 

Extending the def statement is not unreasonable, but IMHO it should be clear 
that the extensions to the def statement are part of that statement.  There's 
nothing in current Python semantics that would suggest that any assignments in 
a funcdef are part of the def statement. Note that even docstrings, which 
could be reasonably argued to be part of the function definition, cannot be 
included in the def statement by assignment:

>>> def f():
...     __doc__ = "f"
...
>>> print f.__doc__
None

Certainly __xxx__ variables are special in some way.  But are they special in 
the way you want them to be?  AFAICT, *assignment* to __xxx__ variables is 
never what does the magic.  The magic is done when the Python interpreter 
reads the *values* of those variables.  The variables continue to exist in 
whatever namespace they were created in -- AFAICT, current Python __xxx__ 
variable assignments never cause __xxx__ variables to change namespace.

I seems like you want to introduce a substantially new semantics to an already 
existing syntax.  This creates ambiguity...  Ambiguity bad.  Bad, Ambiguitiy, 
bad!  No biscuit! ;)

Steve



From guettli at thomas-guettler.de  Thu Aug 19 10:08:34 2004
From: guettli at thomas-guettler.de (Thomas Guettler)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:08:34 +0200
Subject: apache 2 & python
References: <pan.2004.08.18.22.42.26.514831@asi.pwr.wroc.pl>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.19.14.08.34.190751@thomas-guettler.de>

Am Thu, 19 Aug 2004 00:42:26 +0200 schrieb Krzysztof Drozd:

> how to configure apache 2 to work with python or mod_python?

You can use SCGI:
http://www.mems-exchange.org/software/scgi/

The docs says it is not well tested for apache2,
but I had no problems, after I realized that 
you need to set "SetHandler scgi-handler". 

HTH,
 Thomas

 


From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz  Tue Aug 24 00:52:05 2004
From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 16:52:05 +1200
Subject: Overriding logical operators?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2097.1093073730.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <59e9fd3a04082022392b749256@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.2097.1093073730.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2ovvrmFcu6r6U1@uni-berlin.de>

Terry Reedy wrote:
> I think
> we need a special term in Python also, such as 'pseudo-op' or 'syntax
> operator' to flag 'and' and 'or' as importantly different from regular
> operators.

They're really control structures, like 'if' and 'while'.
The fact that they happen to look a bit like operators is
purely coincidental...

-- 
Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept,
University of Canterbury,	
Christchurch, New Zealand
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg



From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 26 01:31:25 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 01:31:25 -0400
Subject: Inline Conditionals?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2307.1093385983.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2307.1093385983.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <jt6dnb18R-cz6LDcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>

Joshua Ginsberg wrote:

> Is there any plan to include inline conditionals in Python? For example:
> 
> def isNegative(x):
> 	return x < 0 ? True : False

This is a FAQ: 
http://www.python.org/doc/faq/programming.html#is-there-an-equivalent-of-c-s-ternary-operator

Newbies, please consider reading the several FAQs that you will find
at http://www.python.org/doc/faq/ before posting questions which
might be answered there (i.e. just about anything).

-Peter


From usenet at datahansa.com  Mon Aug  2 07:32:54 2004
From: usenet at datahansa.com (Oleg Paraschenko)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 04:32:54 -0700
Subject: Percentage matching of text
References: <1678860800.20040730075239@MailBlocks.com>
	<mailman.958.1091195562.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <de21d442.0408020332.1a4f6838@posting.google.com>

Hello Bruce,

Bruce Eckel <BruceEckel at MailBlocks.com> wrote in message
news:<mailman.958.1091195562.5135.python-list at python.org>

> ...
> What I'd like to do is find an algorithm that produces the results
> of a text comparison as a percentage-match.
> ...
> Does anyone know of an algorithm or library that would do this?
> Thanks in advance.
> 

  I suggest you to look at my software, GetReuse and its SDK:

http://getreuse.com/
http://getreuse.com/sdk/

  The formula for the calculation of the similarity is based on the
scientific research. Any other "good" method of calculations should
produce results that are equivalent in some terms to the GetReuse
results. I have not wrote a paper yet; the formula is a improvement
of the formula from http://www.cs.ucsb.edu/~mli/sid.ps . Unfortunately,
I froze the project but the current code is tested and should work well.

> Bruce Eckel
> Bruce at EckelObjects.com

  Regards, Oleg


From sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au  Tue Aug 31 07:07:41 2004
From: sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au (Sam Holden)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 11:07:41 GMT
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87hdqok9i6.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1rfz68ely9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<876574k7du.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1r3c28ejis.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<zILXc.54863$xi6.26091@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<1rllg0cb3m.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<874qmovxna.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<slrncj8kv2.kp.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
Message-ID: <slrncj8mvt.djm.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>

On 31 Aug 2004 10:33:07 GMT, Antoon Pardon <apardon at forel.vub.ac.be> wrote:
> Op 2004-08-28, Isaac To schreef <iketo2 at netscape.net>:
>>>>>>> "Kjetil" == Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no> writes:
>>
>>    Kjetil> after all, code in _any_ language written by a
>>    Kjetil> professional will have strict indentation.  so it's just
>>    Kjetil> syntax.
>>
>> No.  In all other languages, people deal with *two* ways to find which
>> statement is associated with an if/while/for/whatever statement and
>> which is not: by looking at the indentation, and by looking at the
>> braces.  They normally look at the indentation, since it is the
>> quicker way.  But when they find something wrong, they look at the
>> defining braces, sometimes deeply hidden in long expressions and
>> statements combined into one line.  In Python, we have *one and only
>> one* way to find which statement is associated with an
>> if/while/for/whatever statement, and this is the quicker way that
>> people are used to.
>
> I doubt that.
>
> I used to limit myself to indentation to see which code belonged
> to which control. But then I found myself witch controls that
> were so nested it was hard to see to which if a particular
> else suite belonged and I started to use end markers in comments
> to make the structure more visible.

Deep nesting is a bad sign in itself, regardless of how a language
specifies block structure. Making the code readable by removing
the unreadable nesting seems a far better solution than adding
end markers.

-- 
Sam Holden


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Mon Aug  9 18:17:07 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:17:07 -0700
Subject: Best pattern/idiom
References: <4117c3d8$1@buckaroo.cs.rit.edu>
Message-ID: <1092090235.791348@news.commspeed.net>


"Chris Connett" <chrisccc_3k at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4117c3d8$1 at buckaroo.cs.rit.edu...
" [ lis[n:n+4] for n in range( 0, len( lis ), 4 ) ]
> which seems very kludgy to me, since it uses a range and len, "

range and len are kludgy only to non-python programers.

Tom




From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 04:35:50 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:35:50 +1000
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <wRhVc.23879$Mt5.1140091@wagner.videotron.net>
References: <wRhVc.23879$Mt5.1140091@wagner.videotron.net>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040820013515284657@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 03:37:12 -0400, Nicolas Fleury
<nid_oizo at yahoo.com_removethe_> wrote:
> - Not Pythonic.  It's a line without a block (like try/finally) that
> affects a following line of code.  It breaks interactive shells.

I've seen this mentioned a couple of times, but as far as I can see, 
it's really not true:

>>> def noop(func):
...     return func
... 
>>> def funcattr(**kwdict):
...     def _deco(func, kwdict=kwdict):
...         for k,v in kwdict.items():
...             setattr(func,k,v)
...         return func
...     return _deco
... 
>>> @noop
... @funcattr(foo=1,bar='bozo',bing=['b','o','n','g'])
... def testfunc(whatever):
...     pass
... 
>>> print testfunc.foo
1
>>> print testfunc.bar
bozo
>>> print testfunc.bing
['b', 'o', 'n', 'g']


> [ snip - decorate block before def ] 

> This proposal has basically the advantages of @decorators with a more
> Pythonic approach.  The main drawback is that the decorate block doesn't
> contain anything like normal statements, as with @decorators.
> Implementation already exists.

Note that the implementation, as far as I know, is not yet complete - it 
doesn't include the from __future__ stuff. I don't know much about that
area of the implementation, so can't offer an opinion on how hard that 
is.

The implementation also doesn't seem to have been submitted as a 
patch to SF. This needs to be done.

> Proposal 2:
> 
> def foo(a,b):
>      using staticmethod

This form (decorators inside the block) has been pretty convincingly
ruled out by Guido. I think the "last man standing" is the decorator-before-def
form, I really doubt you're going to convince people that  the form inside the
function is workable.


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Fri Aug 13 16:03:24 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:03:24 -0400
Subject: Why I love python.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1631.1092426395.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1628.1092425051.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408131530170.4101-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1631.1092426395.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408131550010.4386-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, kosh wrote:

> On Friday 13 August 2004 1:34 pm, Christopher T King wrote:
> > On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, kosh wrote:
> > > Why is there a need for a stand alone executable? At least on all the
> > > unixes whether something is executable is just determined by the
> > > executable bit on the file.
> >
> > Not if you don't have the interpreter installed.
> 
> So install the runtime. If you want to run the .NET stuff you need to
> have the the .NET CLR or Mono installed. If you want to run java apps
> you need the jvm etc.

And if you want to run Python scripts you need the Python interpreter 
installed.

> Overall once a runtime is installed it makes distributing apps a lot 
> easier since the actual thing you need to send someone is tiny.

Oftentimes users will only have one Python app.  They'd much rather
download a 2MB ZIP file and dump it somewhere, than download a 20MB Python
distribution and install it somewhere, download XMB of extension modules
needed by the app (e.g. PIL, numarray, to name a few), and then finally
download and install your script.

> Also at least on unixes I have not run into a box in about 6 years or so
> that did not have python and perl installed so in practice I have not
> run into that problem.

And hence the lack of an executablization program for Unix.

> Overall it would be better if there was an easy way on windows to get the 
> runtime installed since then you can send users far smaller files, smaller 
> updates and it makes it easier for people to patch their systems.

True.  I don't see that happening anytime soon, though.

> I have seen more then a few cases where a bug like temp file creation
> was found to be a problem in python and in some c code. However the
> difference is that you can update the python runtime and all affected
> python programs are fixed. The same is not true of the c versions.

What?  C programs use a runtime library, just the same as any other 
language.  Google for "libc.so" or "msvcrt.dll" if you don't believe me.

> One of them I have run into which is a pain is stuff like openssl. When that 
> gets updated it seems a whole bunch of programs have to be compiled to work 
> with it again. The change is source compatible but for whatever reason the 
> bug fix breaks binary compatibility on a number of apps.

That sounds like an openssl-specific problem, perhaps relating to 
configuration issues.  Since C libraries are linked dynamically, source 
compatibility inherently translates to binary compatibility, assuming 
functions were not moved to different libraries or rewritten as macros (or 
vice-versa).

In a perfect world, all OSes would use proper package management systems, 
and single-executable programs would not be needed.  Unfortunately, this 
isn't true.



From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Fri Aug 13 14:03:39 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 20:03:39 +0200
Subject: Why I love python.
In-Reply-To: <slrnchpe3q.7ld.npat@gray.efault.net>
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<411C8CD9.32F39C2@mega-nerd.com> <411C93B2.2027B48B@alcyone.com>
	<slrnchpe3q.7ld.npat@gray.efault.net>
Message-ID: <2o4divF6one2U1@uni-berlin.de>

Nick Patavalis wrote:
> On 2004-08-13, Erik Max Francis <max at alcyone.com> wrote:
>> Erik de Castro Lopo wrote:
>>> 
>>> Its called type inferencing and since there is at least one working
>>> implementation, it can't be THAT hard.
>>
>> That's actually the kind of thing that is planned for Python with
>> Starkiller, however silly a project name that might be.
>>
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thing that starkiller produces
> optimized code (i.e. native code) only if it can unambiguously
> inference the types a-priori, and there are cases (in a dymanically
> typed language like python) where this is impossible. In these cases,
> I believe, starkiller does nothing. Are there any plans for treating
> such cases? And how?

I think the dynamic nature does make it impossible to do anything in
such cases at the first place. Consider:

klass = raw_input()
classobj = eval(klass + "()")
print classobj.whatami

A compiler can tell absolutely _nothing_ about the resulting class
object since typing information is not contained in the program.

One would have to tell the "compiler" explicitly which types the
variable will be allowed to hold, such as:

klass = raw_input()
classobj as (FooObject, BarObject, BazInterface) = eval(klass + "()")
print classobj.whatami

But that requires "typed Python" extensions, and as such isn't pure type
inferencing any more.

Reinhold

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From fortepianissimo at gmail.com  Mon Aug  2 13:40:24 2004
From: fortepianissimo at gmail.com (fortepianissimo)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 10:40:24 -0700
Subject: module timeit and variable scope
Message-ID: <78aed1f3.0408020940.7630b894@posting.google.com>

A couple questions about using timeit to record the CPU time consumed
by an instance method:

1. What are the advantages of using timeit compared to using
time.time() or time.clock()? (on Mac OS X)

2. How do I introduce a variable into the timeit.Timer? For example I
have a class Foo:

class Foo:
  def __init__ (self):
    # the following line didn't work because the scope is not
    #   the calling function
    # self._timer = timeit.Timer(stmt='self.run(bar)')
    pass

  def someMethod (self, bar):
    print bar

  def run (self, bar):
    # call self.someMethod(bar) and record time using
    #   self._timer
    pass


and I want to record the CPU time consumed by someMethod in method
run(), using the timer initialized in __init__(). The reason to set up
the timer in __init__ is to avoid overhead of setting up the same
timer time and time again in run().

Thank you.


From http  Fri Aug 20 14:44:00 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 11:44:00 -0700
Subject: decorator J4 - any objections?
References: <cab22418.0408201006.16f163b2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <7xbrh5hcpb.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

JimJJewett at yahoo.com (Jim Jewett) writes:
> <URL: http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators > (section 5.21 J4) 
> 
> looks very good to me -- and it is the only alternative without negatives.
> 
>    def func(arg1, arg2)
>        @version("Added in 2.4")
>        @returns(None)
>    as:
>        """Docstring could be here, or in decorator part above"""
>        # body goes here

What was wrong with using . or - instead of @ ?  Given that this is
new syntax, just about any character could work.  Or what about no
special punctuation at all?  Using @ makes me cringe somewhat.

Also, why the need for the "as" keyword?  What happens if it's just
eliminated?  I.e.:

    def func(arg1, arg2)
        @version("Added in 2.4")
        @returns(None):

        """Docstring could be here, or in decorator part above"""
        # body goes here


From beliavsky at aol.com  Mon Aug  9 08:48:05 2004
From: beliavsky at aol.com (beliavsky at aol.com)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 05:48:05 -0700
Subject: Paul Graham on Python hackers
References: <cf1p1f$ke0@odak26.prod.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.07.10.51.16.393303@teliko.net>
	<slrncha2q0.1sd3.kirk@eyegor.jobsluder.net>
Message-ID: <3064b51d.0408090448.31806af5@posting.google.com>

Kirk Job-Sluder <kirk at eyegor.jobsluder.net> wrote in message news:<slrncha2q0.1sd3.kirk at eyegor.jobsluder.net>...
 
> In previous writings Graham tends to focus more on language fundamentals
> rather than the scope of features or the process of compilation.  Python
> is closer to Java in that they are both strongly Object Oriented languages in
> contrast to perl's OO framework that feels more bolted on than integral
> to me.

Python, unlike Java, does not force OOP upon you -- it can be treated
as an imperative language. I think this is a plus especially when
first learning the language or writing small programs. A Hello World
program is just

print "Hello, World"

rather than

class HelloWorldApp {
    public static void main(String[] args) {
        System.out.println("Hello World!"); //Display the string.
    }
}

Python to me is a multi-paradigm language (imperative, OO, functional,
generic), like C++ but interpreted and with dynamic typing.


From kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no  Fri Aug 27 09:42:54 2004
From: kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Torgrim Homme)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 15:42:54 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87hdqok9i6.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
Message-ID: <1rfz68ely9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>

[Isaac To]:
>
>   If the aim is simply to do a local change that is sufficient to
>   deal with the problem just in your computer, then the simplest
>   answer might be to use "pass": if your code contains
>   
>   if t1 == t2:
>       t1 = t3
>   else:
>       t2 = t3
>       pass
>   t = t2
>   
>   and you tab at the last line, Emacs won't try to indent the t=t2
>   line further to after the pass line where it is impossible to
>   execute.

interesting idea, but Python won't discover inconsistencies.  if only
an Emacs solution is sought, a "# end" convention is preferable since
it's more explicit.  an explicit convention that Python recognises
would be even better.

>   If you want something that is done globally and everybody will use
>   it... not a chance.

I don't expect everybody to use it.  miscellaneous projects where the
developers are comfortable with it might want to add it to their
coding standards.
-- 
Kjetil T.


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Tue Aug 17 19:39:43 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 01:39:43 +0200
Subject: flex: plex?
In-Reply-To: <qnkk6vx1l15.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408172148210.3812-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<qnkk6vx1l15.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408180017550.3812-100000@kleigh.nl>

David M. Cooke schreef:


> If you've been using Flex, you might want to check out FlexModule at
> <http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mcguire/software/fbmodule/>
> which allows you to use Flex to generate a lexer callable from python.

I have tried it. (Had to edit the Makefile by hand, because
"make -f Makefile.pre.in boot" did not produce a valid Makefile,
but I did manage to build and run the example.)  The problem is,
the Flex file (and Yacc file) is compiled into C, and then into
a shared lib. This means I must use C code in the Flex file.

What I want is something that lets me call arbitrary Python code
from the lexer. Ideal would be to have a version of Flex that
produces a Python file instead of a C file. I have kept looking,
and I think I found what I was looking for: PyLly, which is part
of PyGgy. http://www.lava.net/~newsham/pyggy/


-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From kosh at aesaeion.com  Fri Aug 13 16:21:34 2004
From: kosh at aesaeion.com (kosh)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:21:34 -0600
Subject: Why I love python.
In-Reply-To: <slrnchq8ie.am7.npat@gray.efault.net>
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1628.1092425051.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnchq8ie.am7.npat@gray.efault.net>
Message-ID: <200408131421.34307.kosh@aesaeion.com>

On Friday 13 August 2004 2:19 pm, Nick Patavalis wrote:
> On 2004-08-13, kosh <kosh at aesaeion.com> wrote:
> > Why is there a need for a stand alone executable? At least on all the
> > unixes whether something is executable is just determined by the
> > executable bit on the file. I can execute a python program just as
> > transparently as one in compiled c, c++,  etc. I really don't see the
> > point of that.
>
> Perhaps you target system has no Python environment installed. And
> perhaps it has no resources to have a complete python environment
> installed (appart from the fact that it might not need one). Don't
> think of your 2GHz / 512MB desktop. Think of your cell-phone.

Cell phones should be cell phones not multifunction device that can run all 
kinds of apps, need virus scanners etc. I don't want my cell phone to run 
python, java, ruby, c# etc etc. I want it to just be a telephone and do that 
job well. Most of the modern cell phones are crap if you want all of that 
stuff get a pda and get a virus scanner for it.


From apardon at forel.vub.ac.be  Tue Aug 17 04:38:48 2004
From: apardon at forel.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 08:38:48 GMT
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1637.1092428855.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<30260531.0408131853.18ec2446@posting.google.com>
	<LIqdnd7Jz9Mspr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<3ke1i05c3cq93vhdmdigj3pudru9n99a4j@4ax.com>
	<fI2dnUCPMP6MSb3cRVn-vA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <slrnci3h0o.k5.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>

Op 2004-08-16, Peter Hansen schreef <peter at engcorp.com>:
> Richard Hanson wrote:
>> For me, a not insignificant part of Python's genius *is* the
>> indentation. When I used C and C++ I was a stickler (pedant? :-)
>> ) for "proper" indentation -- which was a PITA. So -- I took to
>> Python's indentation like a duck to water.
>
> That's been exactly my situation as well, which leads me to
> theorize that those who react most strongly against Python's
> syntactically significant indentation are those who were the
> least consistent or, uh, "anal" about making sure their code
> conformed to conventions.
>
> The corollary would be that those who already wrote code which
> would have been accepted by a compiler which checked indentation,
> are those who hardly blink when encountering Python,
> other than to say "Of course!" as you did, and carry on writing
> code just as they used to, with a mild feeling of dismay that
> it never occurred to them before to question the supposed
> value of braces or begin/end tags.

I think both have their value. I still prefer modula2 style.
No begin (*) tags as the block is automtically started by
any compound statement so you only needed an end tag. My
experience is that proper indentation end end tags makes
for the best readabilty, better than either of them on
their own. And mostly I add comments to the end tags
to better see what control structures they end.

(*) This is not strictly true, there is a begin tag
but that was only used to start the body of a
procedure or module, not for compound statements.

-- 
Antoon Pardon


From gohaku at earthlink.net  Thu Aug 12 14:37:55 2004
From: gohaku at earthlink.net (gohaku)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:37:55 -0400
Subject: Import command
In-Reply-To: <20040812182143.8CC921589E@net.tamu.edu>
References: <20040812182143.8CC921589E@net.tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <B9AE3D92-EC8E-11D8-AE36-000A9574CFD8@earthlink.net>


On Aug 12, 2004, at 2:21 PM, Yong Wang wrote:

>   When I run the codes, I get the following error though I have 
> inserted import snmpPP
> sources path (/home/yong3/nd3/Modules):
>
>
>> cisco werc-2950t-1
> sys path is  ['', '/home/yong/nd3/Modules', 
> '/usr/local/lib/python1.5/', '/usr/local/lib/python1.5/plat-sunos5', 
> '/usr/local/lib/python1.5/lib-tk', 
> '/usr/local/lib/python1.5/lib-dynload']
> Traceback (innermost last):
>   File "cisco", line 10, in ?
>     import snmpPP
> ImportError: ld.so.1: /usr/local/bin/python: fatal: relocation error: 
> file /usr/local/lib/libreadline.so: symbol tputs: referenced symbol 
> not found
>    How should I fix the import problem ?
>    Thanks a lot.
>
what is the filename of the script you are trying to run?
I get the feeling there's a filename conflict in case your script's 
filename is
snmpPP.py



From mensanator at aol.com  Wed Aug 18 16:17:44 2004
From: mensanator at aol.com (mensanator at aol.com)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 13:17:44 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
Message-ID: <cg0dh8$sb4@odbk17.prod.google.com>

Lucas Raab wrote:
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of
a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....

50. Python appreciation is probably proportional to age.
I can't top the stories from the guys with the relays, but ...

Saw an Apple ][ in a computer store in fall '77, but couldn't
afford to buy one until Feb '78. In anticipation, I got the
classic book "Basic BASIC" and learned BASIC on a GA SPC-16.

My first real program was based on the card game "Nuclear War".
Trouble was, it had to be played on a teletype.



From ville at spammers.com  Mon Aug 23 14:00:55 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 21:00:55 +0300
Subject: J2 decorator grammar
References: <mailman.2130.1093134487.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2orckjFdtljaU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<mailman.2214.1093280234.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <du7hdqtoht4.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Francois" == Fran?ois Pinard <pinard at iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

    Francois> I'm not especially crusading for `with', but it has the
    Francois> advantage that it will likely become a keyword in some
    Francois> later version of Python, and likely also, will be used
    Francois> in `with SOMETHING:' and not barely as `with:'.

    Francois> Reserving a keyword is a lengthy process, like it was
    Francois> demonstrated by the progressive implementation of
    Francois> `yield'.  So using `with' here would be a nice
    Francois> investment for the future in that regard.

If that is an advantage rather than drawback (i.e. BDFL doesn't
disagree w/ 'with' having a dual purpose), I'm all for 'with'. The
less keywords we have, the better.

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 04:18:21 2004
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 01:18:21 -0700
Subject: ClientCookie
Message-ID: <6f402501.0408110018.1e4e5ca8@posting.google.com>

Has anyone used ClientCookie to store cookies ? 
I'm going to play around with 'pickling cookies' - but I wondered if
anyone had any experience of this.

(For session persistence in approx - my cgi proxy)

Regards,


Fuzzy

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html


From CousinStanley at HotMail.Com  Thu Aug 12 22:19:59 2004
From: CousinStanley at HotMail.Com (Cousin Stanley)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:19:59 -0700
Subject: Pyhton Interpreter Startup time
References: <mailman.1556.1092304607.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<AK2dnejSUMm394bcRVn-iw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <2o2mijF62hrkU1@uni-berlin.de>

| ....
| This primitive test shows these results on a Windows XP machine
| ( it won't work with Windows 98 
|   as it can't chain commands 
|   on the command line like that, 
|   but you could but it in a batch file ).
| ....

  I stuck it in a  .bat  file under Win98_SE
  on the same dual-boot machine that I used 
  for the Linux/Debian test .... 

      Win98_SE .... Python 2.3 Enthought Edition
      Debian ...... Python 2.3.4

< K:\C\MinGWStudio\Samples\Time\Debug >
  Thu 08-12-2004 18:49:03.23
py_time

    Number of Seconds Since January 1, 1970 ....

        1092361745
        1092361746.75

The Linux/Debian number is only slightly quicker
with Python 2.3.4 and probably given a larger number
of tests, there might be no significant difference ....

    Number of seconds ......... 1092323003
    Python .................... 1092323003.36

So, for an old 250 MHz machine, I seem to be loading
Python OK for both Win98 & Linux .... 


-- 
Cousin Stanley
Human Being
Phoenix, Arizona



From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Aug 19 02:17:32 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:17:32 +0200
Subject: cant install from source on MSWindows
In-Reply-To: <cg0mjb$1d7$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
References: <cg0mjb$1d7$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <412445f3$0$198$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

Darren Dale wrote:
> I'm getting the old "need visual studio 6" error message. I have seen 
> advice to download the free compiler, I tried that and it didnt work. I 
> have an academic copy of VS.net, tried installing that, and still no 
> dice. Can somebody tell me how they have been able to get this working? 
> I would like to start contributing to my favorite plotting package, but 
> this is really tripping me up.

Reportedly, you also can build extensions with Cygwin.

Regards,
Martin


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 17 09:34:26 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:34:26 -0400
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed204081706284b20ea8d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20040814153534.8AC171E4007@bag.python.org>	<D65D4928-EEBF-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>	<mailman.1687.1092584144.5135.python-list@python.org>	<frydnbvSiJeXF4LcRVn-oA@giganews.com>	<cfo7cg$k7p$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204081522014bb9c988@mail.gmail.com>	<cfq1p1$bde$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204081608247149972d@mail.gmail.com>	<cfqq7l$a9p$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed204081706284b20ea8d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cft1h1$8ru$1@sea.gmane.org>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:17:42 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>Q: What if I had a metaclass that would make any method private whose
>>name started with two underbars (by, I dunno, mangling the name
>>somehow)?  Would you consider that a hack too? ;-)
> 
> 
> Damn straight - that's awful. Why on earth would someone implement
> that? 
> 

I expected a :-) after your comment (as the behavior I describe is 
already being performed by the Python system)...

 >
 > Sorry, burned out on decorators for now.
 >

That's cool.



From heikowu at ceosg.de  Wed Aug 11 22:10:52 2004
From: heikowu at ceosg.de (Heiko Wundram)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 04:10:52 +0200
Subject: rsa implementation question
In-Reply-To: <1a517b5.0408111636.200f675f@posting.google.com>
References: <1092200894.4119a9beb1978@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
	<mailman.1517.1092244848.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1a517b5.0408111636.200f675f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <200408120410.52256.heikowu@ceosg.de>

Am Donnerstag, 12. August 2004 02:36 schrieb Bryan Olson:
> There is a notion of blocks in many public-key ciphers,
> including RSA.  The modulus n in RSA is composite, not prime.
> The "only the notion" statement implies that integer modular
> arithmetic is the only base for public-key cryptography, which
> is not true.

Pardon me, yeah, the modulus is composite, I should've rather said that most 
public key ciphers work in Z{n}. And I know that it's pretty easy to 
generalize ElGamal to work in other rings than Z, or take bucket public key 
cryptography for example.

I know of others, but: have you ever seen an implementation or use case of 
some algorithm not working in Z{n}(*)? I have not, at least not when working 
with computers.

> Try the book you cited, section 11.2.3, Note 11.10, Example
> 11.11, and Remark 11.12.
>
>     http://www.cacr.math.uwaterloo.ca/hac/

Yup, I read those, and yeah, I know what they are talking about, and yeah, 
that's not what I said. It's not about decrypting to sign, encrypting to 
verify, it's about the redundancy function. In case you use a proper hash 
function (I'm talking about identity with SHAing before signing), this attack 
blatantly fails, as it would mean that you'd have to find hash collisions. 
Even when I can easily find a m~ for which I have a valid signature m, 
finding a plaintext for m~ which is meaningful should be impossible, due to 
the hashing, for "long enough plaintext."

And the example code I gave was not about leaving out hashing before putting 
it throught the identity function as "redundancy", it was exactly about 
reducing redundancy, which probably I was to stupid to explain correctly, 
but I'll try now.

> Don't do that, even for encryption.  See Bleichenbacher's
> attacks on RSA encrpytion:
>
>   http://www.bell-labs.com/user/bleichen/bib.html

Link doesn't work... But anyway, look at the same book on page 288, (ii):

"A pseudorandomly generated bitstring should be appended to the plaintext 
before encryption (this is also called salting)."

That's exactly what my little example was trying to do: append a salt to the 
data which was being encrypted. First, this gives an internal structure to 
the data which is being encrypted/decrypted (and thus makes it easy to 
discard invalid values), as you just have to check that the two lowest bytes 
of the number coming out are <= keysize//8, and also assures that you don't 
lose information when for example you are encrypting "what is this?" with a 
768 bit key, now when this number comes out of decryption, the string will 
have been "prepadded" with zeros, but as you know the actual length of the 
string (from the two lowest bytes), you can extract the string properly.

Second, what this also achieves, is that you may encrypt the same plaintext 
for the same recipient multiple times without an eavesdropper seeing that the 
plaintext is identical (because of the salt), and

Thirdly, the attack stated on the given page is also not successful (when 
encrypting to multiple recipients with the same encryption exponent, but this 
is certainly not true for most common situations I need cryptography in).

So, pre/postpadding with salt is certainly not the wrong way to go for 
encryption.

Now I'd really like to hear from you why this same argument doesn't go for 
signing. Because:

1) I generate a signature for a string "some string" with SHA.
2) I decrypt this hash, which is salted by the same standard salting algorithm 
I noted above with my private key to get the signature
3) I encrypt the signature to get the salted hash with my public key, which 
can easily be unsalted, and then checked for validity.

Forging a valid signature would mean the following steps:

1) Find a pair of numbers (n,E(n)) for which E(n) has the lowest two bytes 
<= keysize//8. It's pretty easy to insert additional constraints here: for 
example, the string of randomized bits in E(n) has to have parity one to be 
accepted, this would make this step harder (but not all of the positions may 
be one, except when the bitstring is of length one, or something).
2) Now, find a pair from one of the pairs found in (1) which has a value which 
has correct length (sha digests are always 160 bits long),
3) Now, for this pair, find a message which corresponds to the hash 
value.

If you complete these three steps (well, you'd only have to find one pair in 
step one and two, which should be hard enough), you'll have a faked 
signature. But not before this.

I recon that step three is computationally infesible, and I also assume that 
finding a pair (n,E(n)) which first of all has the properties that I give to 
it (stated above), and also turns out to be a valid hash value for some 
string I want it to be is computationally infesible. But, as I stated above, 
even if step 1 is dead easy (by using the identify function here), what is 
the use if I can easily find a a proper signature for a certain hash value, if 
I have no plaintext for the hash value for which I have the signature? The 
problem being that I can't construct the signature from the hash value, but 
rather even when using identidy redundancy, I have to have the signature 
first, before constructing the hash value.

At least that's what my professor taught me at univ, and with what I can 
agree.

> Then I'm guessing I won't see you at Crypto 04 next week ;)

No, you won't, I'm more or less a hobby cryptographer... And I guess I'm 
certainly not the smartest at this, but... I'd love to hear why you think the 
above argumentation is wrong, or direct me to a paper which explains why 
salting a signature with an equally simple algorithm I proposed to salt a 
string to encrypt won't make things "more secure" for signing also...

Anyway, if you're up to some more explaining, feel free to contact me 
off-list... I'd be glad to learn... :-)

Heiko.


From me at privacy.net  Thu Aug 26 20:56:07 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Richard Hanson)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:56:07 -0700
Subject: MSI Installer Problem: can't install 2.4a2 on new install of
	Win2kSP2
References: <vnipi0ldsgchqqiti1q19qtd5d70ju17p0@4ax.com>
	<412d7dcd$0$26184$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<sfsri058cggdn56usp887tcrus25sgdcsv@4ax.com>
	<412e5452$0$24835$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
Message-ID: <p5vsi09a62l3jgvo7omks26gipml6ru524@4ax.com>

Martin,

I had just found a workaround for my immediate problem and was
composing a post. Instead, I'll cut-and-paste as appropriate from that
draft, interleaved herein.

Martin v. L?wis wrote:

>Richard Hanson wrote:
>> (I have much to learn in writing concise posts, alas -- I appreciate
>> your patience.)
>
>That is indeed the problem. I stopped reading after the first paragraph.
>I'm still uncertain whether you are talking about the original problem
>(failure to install the Python msi file), or about the second problem
>(MSI file installs fine, but IDLE fails to work) in this message.

Sorry. I see now that I provided too much background detail getting to
the story -- and didn't write clearly enough, to boot. (As it were.)

The problem: The "python-2.4a2.msi" file appeared to install, but the
install was broken -- IDLE failed to work, and the console was mostly
broken.

Platform: Dual-booting Win98SE and Win2kSP2 on Fujitsu laptop --
primary OS is Win2k on the E: partition.

>>[...] Surely, something I had previously installed in
>> my own prior installation silently installed something needed for the
>> Python 2.4a2 install *other than the MSI Installer 2.0* and is
>> currently missing from my reinstall...?
>
>Why do you think so?

Well, I admit I was clutching at straws. And ignorance and frustration
were probably making me too reckless with unwarranted assertions. :-)

Now, however, I have some new data (which has me even more confused):

If I have a directory named "Python23" with *only* the immediate
contents of "Lib" in it (no other files or directories nor any of
Lib's sub-dirs) in a separate Win98 partition, then IDLE doesn't run.
However, if I rename or move that dir inside another dir, then IDLE
runs. I can move that subsetted Python23 dir back and forth between
being hidden inside another dir and being in the root, without
rebooting, and IDLE works or not, depending on the visibility of that
very limited subset of the normal Python23 install directory.

I've searched the registry for "Python23" and don't find any reference
there.

It's probably Just Another Windows Problem <wink>, but by now after
fighting Windows installation problems for days -- my brain is mush.
Further, I know virtually nothing about Python's guts.

Perhaps my testing will help you or others ascertain if there even
*is* a problem in general -- or, if there's just something wrong with
my individual machine.

For now, I will just uninstall Python from my Win98 partition. 

My apologies again, Martin, for my less-than-optimum posts. I do
appreciate the busyness of the modern era, and I'm very grateful that
folks like you are so willing to give of your valuable time.

You have indeed helped by eliminating many blind alleys I could have
gone down.

Anyway, thanks much -- again.

Best regards,
Richard

-- 
email works if unmunged:
sick<PERI0D>ole<P0INT>fart<PIE_DEC0_SYNTAX>newsguy<MARK>com


From http  Thu Aug 26 16:54:36 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 13:54:36 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2458.1093543085.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj5cs7.wqxd1s1ec69umN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7xfz69oc1f.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:
> I think a keyword that's ALREADY a keyword has been almost ignored,
> though people occasionally did mention it re decorators: 'as'.  I'd love
> to see 'as' used as THE decorator keyword.  personally I'd prefer
> 'def as classmethod foo(...):'
> followed by

How do you handle the other proposed uses of decorators, e.g. type
declarations?

    def foo as int (a as string, b as int):
      ...

seems pretty awful to me.


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 03:05:25 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 17:05:25 +1000
Subject: decorator with ```
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408121325110.4253@suzi.com.onego.ru>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408121325110.4253@suzi.com.onego.ru>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408130005465eb499@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:32:28 +0400 (MSD), Roman Suzi <rnd at onego.ru> wrote:
> 
> One more crazy syntax before-def but which could be treated
> more generally:
> 
> ```"""  Factory for new decorator syntaxes.
> 
>          Keeps all proposals in a list and will recombine
>          them at random if called without a spec. """
>    staticmethod```
> def makeDecoratorSyntax(spec=None):

-1. "Syntax should not look like grit". 

Note that my dislike of the backtick also led me to nag about stripping them
from the stdlib.


From adurdin at gmail.com  Sun Aug  8 10:57:56 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 00:57:56 +1000
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar,
	but for what exactly? (decorator libraries).
In-Reply-To: <roy-B29ABA.10463808082004@reader1.panix.com>
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
	<mailman.1352.1091953503.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-0D45FB.09322108082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1359.1091973019.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-032D22.10191908082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1360.1091975279.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-B29ABA.10463808082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a04080807571fbb3a4c@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 10:46:38 -0400, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> In article <mailman.1360.1091975279.5135.python-list at python.org>,
> 
> Wow, I'm glad I asked.  That answer is quite surprising, and somewhat
> disconcerting.  Lot's of special cases going on here, which is bad.

Well, I think I agree with the principle of limiting the expressions
to dotted names. Some of the possibilities if you allow arbitrary
expressions are pretty hairy:

"""
Things someone might want to do, ordered roughly from most reasonable
to least reasonable ;)
@foo().bar()
@foo or bar
@mydecorators['foo']
@lambda f: foo(f) or bar(f)
"""
(from http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046673.html)


From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Thu Aug  5 13:37:28 2004
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 10:37:28 -0700
Subject: AVI I/O
In-Reply-To: <41120e31$1@news.bezeqint.net>
References: <41120e31$1@news.bezeqint.net>
Message-ID: <411272ec$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

ziaran wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I want to use Python for Image proccessing.
> I need the following capabilities:
> 
> 1. To be able to read and WRITE an AVI file frame by frame.
> 2. To be able to access each fram as a simple matrix.
> 
> I tried to search for that in google but could not find something 
> intuitive and simple.
> 
> The matrices part is important since iamge processing is done through 
> matrices manipulation.
> 
> MATLAB is an example of a tool with scripting capabilities in which you 
> can do that in a simple way.
> 
> Is Python adequate for that?
> 
> Thanks,
> Nir
Python is, of course, up to the job.  However, nobody I know has
provided free access to something that "knows" how to generate the AVI
format.  The array formay part is probably best handled through numarray
(which is quite happy with multi-dimensional arrays).  PIL may also have
some interesting things to get you going.

So, the parts are mostly there.  If you want the whole kit and kaboodle
prepackaged for you, no luck.

-Scott David Daniels
Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org


From zathras at thwackety.com  Sat Aug 14 17:49:22 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 22:49:22 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
In-Reply-To: <972ec5bd.0408141032.385fe115@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408142231270.9375-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>

On 14 Aug 2004, Timothy Fitz wrote:

> It seems to me that in python, generators are not truly coroutines.

Assuming you mean there isn't available a default scheduler for them, or
there isn't pre-emption built-in I agree. If you mean something else, I'm
curious as to what you think is missing. (I've also been using generators
as co-routines for sometime for various reasons)

> Why can I use "return" without an expression and it implicitly
> returns None but I can't do the same thing with "yield" ?

I suspect it's one of two things:
   * A syntax for yield by itself as either not considered important or
     needed.
   * The ability to do a return with an implicit None value was considered
     a mistake, but one that can't be undone this late in the game.

After all, the following works fine:
   * yield None

Also given I think the most expected use case for generators is to lazily
return a list, or to transform (or create) an iterator (eg a lexer),
having simply "yield" by itself might've been considered sensible.

That said, enforcing a return value is useful - even in the co-routine
situation since I find it useful for sending back information to
the scheduler.

BTW, if you're looking at using generators as co-routines, you might want
to look at Armin Rigo's "Greenlets" which whilst in the stackless python
tree work fine with standard python. (check out the CVS tree, and just
grab the greenlets directory - it built cleanly for me) As far as I can
tell Armin is *really* good at producing things that confound, astound
and speed up your code with minimal effort...

I've found that by replacing usage of generators-as-co-routines with
Greenlets that it speeds things up by a factor of about 2.5.  YMMV.
Incidentally the default mechanism for switching between greenlets is
a switch() method which can take 0 arguments.


Michael.



From martin at v.loewis.de  Sun Aug 15 06:15:28 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 12:15:28 +0200
Subject: compiling python 2.3.4 with command line editing
In-Reply-To: <864c2cd6.0408141845.3f50a3d5@posting.google.com>
References: <864c2cd6.0408141845.3f50a3d5@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <411f37bf$0$13058$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

enjoylife_95135 wrote:
>    I need to upgrade, so I downloaded and compiled Python 2.3.4. Very
> cool, spiffy etc, but the interpreter doesn't allow for command line
> editing, i.e. I can't type <ctrl-P> and go to the previous command.
> 
>     How do I enable that?

Make sure the readline module is built. For that, you need to install
the readline header files, which are probably in the readline-dev
package.

Regards,
Martin


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Fri Aug  6 10:49:43 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 14:49:43 GMT
Subject: Buy a vote! (was Re: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was
	Decorator syntax))
References: <mailman.1256.1091769064.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<weadnfi70qOpDI7cRVn-qA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <bUMQc.4549$rb2.3839@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"Peter Hansen" <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message
news:weadnfi70qOpDI7cRVn-qA at powergate.ca...
> I suggest that everyone with an opinion on the matter visit the
> page at http://www.python.org/psf/donations.html and make a donation,
> preferably sized in relation to the strength of your opinion. (*)

Done.




From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 12 08:43:36 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:43:36 -0400
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
In-Reply-To: <2WFSc.12148$Nl1.3243@fe1.columbus.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
	<60dfb6f6.0408111846.615ee9eb@posting.google.com>
	<3YWdnYxLf--ObofcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<2WFSc.12148$Nl1.3243@fe1.columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <FMadncy5L8ll-IbcRVn-tw@powergate.ca>

Carl Banks wrote:

> Well, the only thing is, whenever you see a def statement, you don't
> know if it's decorated right away, so you have to expend one or two
> extra ergs of energy to look above it and see if it is.

Well, that argument could be used against any decorator syntax,
(except those which completely obscure the def, and there would be
obvious objections to such a syntax as well).

Likewise, when you see a def, you don't know for sure right away if
it has a body, or just a big doc string, or perhaps only a pass
statement.

Neither can you tell without looking in a module whether it has
functions, classes, or just data.  Or maybe just a bunch of comments,
or many, many empty lines.  You even have to turn on the computer
before you can find the name of the file!

Damn, you mean we actually have to look at the code to figure
out what it does?!  ;-)

-Peter


From paul.dubois at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 21:52:33 2004
From: paul.dubois at gmail.com (Paul  Du Bois)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 18:52:33 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <cg69t1$jo@odak26.prod.google.com>

J2, J2, J2

And not that it matters for the vote, but I like J2 better than the pie
syntax.  The pie syntax is my second favorite.



From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 24 00:50:33 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 00:50:33 -0400
Subject: urllib hangs
In-Reply-To: <a6fdfd6b.0408231537.c2c5af2@posting.google.com>
References: <a6fdfd6b.0408230902.2afc0e08@posting.google.com>
	<cgdaoh$1gn$01$1@news.t-online.com>
	<a6fdfd6b.0408231537.c2c5af2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <tZOdnSAokOE9VbfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>

Jay Donnell wrote:

> I found this link
> http://www.timo-tasi.org/python/timeoutsocket.py
> which I'm assuming is the most recent version of timeoutsocket.py
> 
> It's very light on the explanatory side. Do I simply need drop this
> file into the same directory as my script, import it, and set the
> timeout???

At the risk of getting beaten up by you for the same reason
you beat up Baalbek (which was, by the way, a wholly unjustified
beating), have you actually looked at the comments in that
module yet?  It does say exactly what you need to do...

(Feel free to beat me up, but note that it really does look
like you aren't taken even a few minutes to help yourself out,
so please consider not abusing those who are helping you,
even if they are a little brusque in their replies...)

-Peter


From heikowu at ceosg.de  Sun Aug  1 10:55:45 2004
From: heikowu at ceosg.de (Heiko Wundram)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 16:55:45 +0200
Subject: Making a socket connection via a proxy server
In-Reply-To: <cedu9i$1cb$03$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <8089854e.0407300433.4c09bce0@posting.google.com>
	<cedu9i$1cb$03$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <200408011655.45363.heikowu@ceosg.de>

> Fuzzyman wrote:
> > In a nutshell - the question I'm asking is, how do I make a socket
> > conenction go via a proxy server ?
> > All our internet traffic has to go through a proxy-server at location
> > 'dav-serv:8080' and I need to make a socket connection through it.

Am Freitag, 30. Juli 2004 18:51 schrieb Diez B. Roggisch:
> Short answer: Its not possible.

Longer answer: it is possible if you use DNAT on some router between the 
computer which opens the request and the destination machine. Check out squid 
transparent proxy howtos you can find on the net. The protocol will need 
HTTP/1.1 for this, though.

Small example, which clarifies why this is possible:

Computer 1 opens http (port 80) connection to computer 2.

Router 1 sits in the middle, sees a port 80 connection is opened to some 
computer 2, and rewrites the incoming packet to have a new destination 
address/port (DNAT), namely proxy 1 with port 3128 (standard http-proxy port, 
at least for squid), and a new source address/port (SNAT), namely router 1 
with some port.

Proxy 1 gets the following (from router 1):

GET /foo.html HTTP/1.1
Host: www.foo.com:80
<other headers>

Proxy 1 opens the connection to www.foo.com port 80 (now, the router sees that 
the connection comes from proxy, it must not do address rewriting), gets the 
result, and stores it locally.

proxy 1 then sends the packets back to router 1 (because the proxy request 
seems to have come from router; if you leave out SNAT in the rewriting step, 
it'll seem to have come from the actual computer, and this is fine too, but 
then you have to be sure that the return packet also has to go through the 
router), and now router 1 does reverse DNAT and SNAT to return the packet to 
computer 1, which will see a source address of computer 2 and port 80 on the 
packet.

computer 1 sees the result, and thinks it came from the outside machine, 
although through some SNAT/DNAT the packets actually originated from the 
proxy.

This is basically it.

If you want to implement this, as I said, read up on transparent proxy howtos 
for squid. Pretty much every proxy can be made to support this, as with 
HTTP/1.1 the Host: header is a required header, and thus the proxy can always 
extract the host which was queried from the request, even when it isn't 
passed as the others have suggested.

On another note: I assumed you wanted to transparently relay/rewrite HTTP 
through the proxy. If you need to open some form of socket connection to the 
proxy which is not HTTP, the proxy protocol supports the method CONNECT, 
which will simply open up a socket connection which is relayed by the proxy. 
But: This cannot be made transparent, except by some deeper magic in the 
router.

HTH!

Heiko.


From sholden at holdenweb.com  Mon Aug 23 20:47:47 2004
From: sholden at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 00:47:47 GMT
Subject: Debunking Art - fraudster with python AI engine?
References: <4128f60b$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>
Message-ID: <412a902f$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>

Nick wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I recently went to an art exhibition, and one of the artists had an AI
> engine projected onto a screen with a keyboard for visitors to type
> questions in with.
> 
> Curiously, I asked the artist if he had written the engine. He claimed
> to have, but as far as I know, he has done no AI study, and only
> started programming python some months ago.
> 
> Naturally, I find it hard to believe he has picked up on natural
> language processing and the other various skills required to write AI
> engines in that time. My guess is he has a python AIML interpreter,
> and he's found a default "brain" somewhere and tweaked it with some of
> his own stuff in order to pass it off as his own.
> 
> The engine could answer all the usual questions, like "what is the
> meaning of life" (42), "what is your name", "how old are you" etc etc.
> It was just a chatterbot, so ELIZA or a deriviative is marked off the
> list. I am guessing probably an ALICE engine is behind it all. Does
> anyone know any questions or commands one can issue the bot which
> might identify it? It required all questions to start with a capital
> letter, if thats any help.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Nick.
> 
The artist wasn't, by any chance, called "Timothy", was he?

regards
  Steve

[ comp.ai is moderated.  To submit, just post and be patient, or if ]
[ that fails mail your article to <comp-ai at moderators.isc.org>, and ]
[ ask your news administrator to fix the problems with your system. ]


From alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 18 17:49:54 2004
From: alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 14:49:54 -0700
Subject: I would really like the code for a dome in vpython
Message-ID: <8f17f4bc.0408181349.46c34b2@posting.google.com>

Please anyone I would really like the code for makinga dome in
vpython. I would like to be able to adjust he color, axis, radius, and
pos.


From benn at cenix-bioscience.com  Fri Aug 13 03:52:52 2004
From: benn at cenix-bioscience.com (Neil Benn)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:52:52 +0200
Subject: Pyhton Interpreter Startup time
In-Reply-To: <411C7262.1000803@cenix-bioscience.com>
References: <mailman.1556.1092304607.5135.python-list@python.org>	<30260531.0408120829.27a536bc@posting.google.com>	<EvadnaKm3bI9N4bcRVn-iQ@powergate.ca>
	<411C7262.1000803@cenix-bioscience.com>
Message-ID: <411C7354.6000808@cenix-bioscience.com>

Neil Benn wrote:

> <snip>
> PYTHON_HOME=c:\program files\python23
> PATH=%PATH%;PYTHON_HOME
> <snip>


PATH=%PATH%;%PYTHON_HOME%

    Just in case someone mentions!

-- 

Neil Benn
Senior Automation Engineer
Cenix BioScience
BioInnovations Zentrum
Tatzberg 47
D-01307
Dresden
Germany

Tel : +49 (0)351 4173 154
e-mail : benn at cenix-bioscience.com
Cenix Website : http://www.cenix-bioscience.com



From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 00:08:47 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 04:08:47 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>
	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>

Paul Morrow <pm_mon <at> yahoo.com> writes:
> I believe that (virtually) all __xxx__ attributes have this metadata 
> aspect (semantics) to them.  When a programmer says
> 
>     def foo():
>         __author__ = 'Wilma Flintstone'
>         __version__ = '0.1'
> 
> She does not intend for __author__ nor __version__ to be local variables 
> of foo, used somehow by foo in the calculation of its return value.  To 
> her they are foo /metadata/ --- attributes of the foo object itself --- 
> as they contain information that *describes* foo.

I assume you mean that this is what you'd like a programmer to intend?  If I 
wrote that, I would intend (and expect) __author__ to be a local variable.  
I'm not saying that I couldn't be retrained.  I'm just saying that right now, 
I would not expect it to be otherwise.

> Likewise, when she defines __lt__, __getitem__, __init__, etc. as part 
> of a class, they will not typically be called by methods of the class or 
> users/consumers/clients of the class [*] the way that 'normal' 
> attributes will.  They contain meta info that describes a deeper level 
> of class behavior.

This seems a little misleading to me.  The only reason these methods are 
special is because they override operators (something like "<", "[]", and "()" 
respectively).  You could provide a class with /exactly/ the same 
functionality without ever implementing any of these methods.  (Well, minus 
__init__, but that was a special case in your discussion too.)  The only thing 
that implementing these methods does is allows your user to access these 
methods through an operator shorthand.  A simple example:

class Identity:
    def get(self, x):
        return x
    __getitem__ = get

How is __getitem__ any more "metadata" then get is?  They provide exactly the 
same functionality.  The __getitem__ declaration just allows you to access the 
get method using "[...]".

Are you trying to say that "metadata" is the same thing as "operator shortcut"?

Steve




From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Fri Aug 20 17:04:07 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:04:07 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <kt2dnePcXdWgz7vcRVn-uw@powergate.ca>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E14@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
	<mailman.2063.1093020568.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<s9z4qmx21ca.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>
	<mailman.2067.1093022774.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<s9zisbdzndj.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>
	<kt2dnePcXdWgz7vcRVn-uw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <10icpotqq293mb6@corp.supernews.com>

Peter Hansen wrote:

> Bernhard Herzog wrote:
>
>> Yes.  But what if the majority of the community favors pies of J2?
>
>
> Then it's a certainty that we'll hear at high volume from
> that community when the time comes.  Now is not their time.
> (Or, to put it another way, they are quite capable of holding
> their own vote... this is c.l.p, home of the daily syntax
> vote!)


I've been thinking of this as a primary election, rather than a general 
election.  One party already has a strong incumbent candidate (@pies), 
the other party is now trying to decide which of many potential 
candidates they should run against the incumbent.

Of course, the difference here is that, in the general election, only 
one vote will be cast, and that vote is GvR's...

(Not sure how well this metaphor will carry over to all of the different 
election schemes used in the many countries represented here in c.l.py, 
but hopefully most of us are at least moderately familiar with the 
concept...)

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From artur_spruce at yahoo.com  Sat Aug  7 05:20:08 2004
From: artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR)
Date: 7 Aug 2004 02:20:08 -0700
Subject: Importance of C# (was Re: IronPython-0.6 is now available!)
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>	<ce9cp3$g39$1@bagan.srce.hr>	<5dydnZSDZaARoZXcRVn-ug@powergate.ca>	<gmint1-db3.ln1@lairds.us>	<9418be08.0407292114.129c856f@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1318.1091832179.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<aZOdnamc0Pt9k4ncRVn-sg@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <b840abf4.0408070120.2321e219@posting.google.com>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message news:<aZOdnamc0Pt9k4ncRVn-sg at powergate.ca>...
> <snip>
> Language comparison is a hard thing: what happens when you
> pick a test case that can be handled much more easily in
> one language than in another?  Do you pick a new test case,
> or write inefficient code that no programmer experienced in that
> language would actually write?   I'm not sure of the answer...

Well, for me the most interesting test would be to actually use all
features available in each of the compared languages. So, if the
standard distribution of a given language includes a library to do a
task, use that library. If there is a syntax feature that makes things
easier, use that too. And so on...

I think this is far more useful in real life than just plain
interpreter/compiled code speed comparison.

I do mostly Java, PHP, and SQL for living. My projects often involve
some obscure algorithms. I usually pick Python for prototyping those
algorithms because the builtin collections and other features allow me
to code faster, read more easily, and thus arrive at the right
solution (or discard a wrong one) more quickly. Then I can rewrite
that in the project's language using more primitive ways like I would
otherwise, but I don't have to switch between thinking about algorithm
and implementation details anymore.

AdSR


From DesertLinux at netscape.net  Sat Aug 21 09:48:45 2004
From: DesertLinux at netscape.net (Byron)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 13:48:45 GMT
Subject: Files in unix and windows
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408201440270.4916-100000@pc64.cs.ucdavis.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408201440270.4916-100000@pc64.cs.ucdavis.edu>
Message-ID: <1pIVc.8678$3O3.1751@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>

Hi Travis,

You want to use forward slashes with your file names.  Backslashes are 
used for special character commands, such as "/t" for <tab>, etc.

	For Windows:
	c:/aFolder/testDocument.txt

	For Unix / Linux
	/aFolder/testDocument.txt

	If you need a relative path, with no drive specified (for Windows), use:
	/aFolder/testDocument.txt

Hope this helps,

Byron
---


Travis James Kleeburg wrote:

> I am trying to copy files from one directory into another using 
> shutil.copy. I am having a problem getting a usable path using 
> os.path.abspath because it doesnt return a string with the extra 
> backslashes and i was wondering if there was a better system call to use? 
> I am also looking for a system call so there wont be a problem between windows and 
> unix.
> 
> 


From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 11 13:45:50 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:45:50 -0400
Subject: PEP-0318
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1373.1092019457.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <41122FC2.1080608@interlink.com.au>	<mailman.1251.1091764482.5135.python-list@python.org>	<4114152f@nntp.zianet.com>
	<aIOdnRybBucMsIncRVn-gA@comcast.com>	<4116bc20$1@nntp.zianet.com>	<e69d3ed204080818344e0e8c3e@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.1373.1092019457.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <411a5b4f$1@nntp.zianet.com>

Andrew Durdin wrote:
> I honestly believe that having docstrings where they are is better
> than having them before the function signature; how many
> function-commenting standards have you seen where the function name is
> repeated in the first line of the comment so that you know what
> function is being talked about when you start reading the comment?

I'm torn on this one, frankly. I agree that having it before the 
function is very much putting the cart before the horse, and leads to 
redundancy to keep it all straight, but I also agree that having it 
inside the function muddies up the function implementation, and is not 
the first place one might think to look for such information.

> This in conception is something like the following:
> 
> def foo(bar, baz=None):
>     header:
>         """Frobulates bar, and calls baz if it is not None."""
>         .decorate(decorator_func)
>         .attribute = "qux"
>     body:
>         pass

I think that this has been proposed before, but was rejected for reasons 
I can't remember. But, as a guess, GvR's argument that one should not 
have to "look inside" a function to see what it is would apply.

And FWIW, the body statement is probably unnecessary. All that really 
needs to be delineated is the header; everything that isn't header is by 
definition the body. Just my $0.02.

   -- Mark


From tuure at laurinolli.net  Fri Aug  6 18:55:04 2004
From: tuure at laurinolli.net (Tuure Laurinolli)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 01:55:04 +0300
Subject: Decorator keyword
In-Reply-To: <cevkeq$1s2$2@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
References: <d11dcfba.0408051617.7b4dfcc5@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1237.1091757081.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cevkeq$1s2$2@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
Message-ID: <cf11rt$7rb$1@plaza.suomi.net>

David Fraser wrote:

> Anthony Baxter wrote:
> 
>> "with" is a non-starter - there's already other plans to use with for 
>> other
>> things, at some distant point. Also, if we're to have a new keyword, it
>> should be _much_ more obvious than 'with'.
> 
> 
> Any pointers to info on other plans for with?
> suggestions: declare
> 
> declare classmethod
> declare returns(int)
> def func(*args, **kwds):
>     return 1
> 
> Other ideas would be "decorate", but this doesn't really seem to make 
> sense (perhaps suggesting that decorators isn't the best name for them 
> :-)) or "wrap" (because they literally wrap the function, but again that 
> doesn't seem intuitive.

I was trying to find some keyword that would incorporate the name 
"decorator" somehow, but couldn't really find any (except decorate, of 
course), thus I don't think decorator is a good name for those things.

I though "use" could be good, but the function won't really use the 
functions it's decorated with, rather thay are used to describe the 
function. Keyword "describe" would make the metafunctions "descriptors", 
although the verb-as-keyword approach doesn't really work because the 
quantifiers are between the predicate and the object(decorate with 
silver and gold this tree).

Could the decorating expressions be inside the function-block?

Could there be decorating blocks inside which the function blocks would 
reside?


From siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk  Thu Aug 12 09:06:02 2004
From: siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk (Sion Arrowsmith)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 14:06:02 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [OT] Keyboard layout, was Re: PEP318
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<20040812090056.00001e31@titan> <cffdba$ko0$04$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <Y+l*oRTrq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

Josef Dalcolmo wrote:
> On many non-English keyboards it isn't exactly simple to type an '@'
> [ ... ]

As someone who's just started using a Mac for the first time(*),
I'd like to add that it's not always plain-sailing on an English
keyboard. (Yes, I know in terms of keystrokes it's no more
difficult than on a PC, but it's not *marked*. And I have a great
aversion to remapping keyboards so that they generate characters
other than those on the keycaps.)

(* ... for about fifteen years, when all I wanted it for was
word processing)

-- 
\S -- siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk -- http://www.chaos.org.uk/~sion/
  ___  |  "Frankly I have no feelings towards penguins one way or the other"
  \X/  |    -- Arthur C. Clarke
   her nu become? se bera eadward ofdun hl?ddre heafdes b?ce bump bump bump


From ville at spammers.com  Sat Aug  7 10:20:31 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 07 Aug 2004 17:20:31 +0300
Subject: Maybe, just maybe @decorator syntax is ok after all
Message-ID: <du7n017ni6o.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>

It might just be that @decorator might not be all that bad. When you
look at code that uses it it's not that ugly after all.

A lot of the furor about this is probably because it happened so
quicly. The situation might have been different if we had seen a
pronouncement a week before, in the vein of "I have chosen this syntax
- it will go in to the next alpha".

My chief worry was throwing away one of the few unused ascii symbols,
but if we take a look at perl6, there is a lot of promising unicode
symbols to choose from in the future ;-). Also, there is still @(),
@#, @{} and others in the hypothetical event BDFL would like to use @
for future features like macros, ruby blocks or whatever.

So I would vote +0 for @decorator if we were in the parallel universe
where that mattered. Two days ago I was -10.

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Mon Aug 23 15:35:42 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:35:42 GMT
Subject: Standard graph API?
References: <slrncik8tm.4g.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
Message-ID: <iGrWc.15065$v86.13623@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"Magnus Lie Hetland" <mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no> wrote in message
news:slrncik8tm.4g.mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no...
> Is there any interest in a (hypothetical) standard graph API (with
> 'graph' meaning a network, consisting of nodes and edges)? Yes, we
> have the standard ways of implementing graphs through (e.g.) dicts
> mapping nodes to neighbor-sets, but if one wants a graph that's
> implemented in some other way, this may not be the most convenient (or
> abstract) interface to emulate. It might be nice to have the kind of
> polymorphic freedom that one has with, e.g, with the DB-API. One could
> always develop factories or adaptors (such as for PyProtocols) to/from
> the dict-of-sets version...
>
> So, any interest? Or am I just a lone nut in wanting this?
>
> -- 
> Magnus Lie Hetland     "Canned Bread: The greatest thing since sliced
> http://hetland.org      bread!" [from a can in Spongebob Squarepants]

Not sure if this falls under the category of an API, but it may be relevant
to what you are doing.

This is a Python API to the Graphviz DOT language:
http://dkbza.org/pydot.html

So I think this is evidence you are not alone.

-- Paul




From inigoserna at terra.es  Wed Aug 25 16:54:12 2004
From: inigoserna at terra.es (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?I=F1igo?= Serna)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:54:12 +0200
Subject: ANN: googlenews.py
Message-ID: <1093467252.15882.15.camel@inigo.katxi.org>

hi there,

while half the world is watching Olympic Games and the other half 
is discussing about decorators, and as far as my good proposal
("#decorator" :) has been sadly ignored, I've spent last days writing
googlenews.py [1], a simple python script to retrieve news from the
http://news.google.com service.

Supported feeds: es, fr, de, it, nz, au, in, ca, uk, us
Can export to: rss2 xml and html files

Requirements:
  - Python 2.3+
  - BeautifulSoap (http://www.crummy.com/software/BeautifulSoup)	

I use it in a hourly cron script, building rss files which I read with
liferea :

[inigo at inigo inigo]$ cat /etc/cron.hourly/googlenews
#!/bin/bash
/home/devel/mine/googlenews/googlenews.py --rss-path=/tmp -w -q es
/home/devel/mine/googlenews/googlenews.py -cnes --rss-path=/tmp -w -q nz
exit 0
[inigo at inigo inigo]$

type "googlenews.py --help" for more info.

Hope you like it,
I?igo

[1] http://inigo.katxi.org/devel/misc/googlenews.py
[2] http://liferea.sourceforge.net
-- 
I?igo Serna <inigoserna at terra.es>
Katxijasotzaileak
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From fredrik at pythonware.com  Wed Aug 11 09:45:48 2004
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:45:48 +0200
Subject: Capturing repeating group matches in regular expressions
References: <4119F7B6.6090003@xtra.co.nz>
	<6C440902-EB9B-11D8-AAF7-000A9574CFD8@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <cfd7uc$bke$1@sea.gmane.org>

"gohaku" wrote:

> This is somewhat off-topic, but I am using finditer:
> for m in re.finditer('([a-z]W)','aWbWcXdXeWfY'):
> print m.groups()
> #aW
> #bW
> #eW
> I would like to compile the regex instead of using finditer.
> How do I do this?

finditer compiles the regex for you, of course, and caches the
result.  but if you really want to do it yourself, just do it:

>>> p = re.compile("([a-z]W)")
>>> p.finditer("aWbWcXdXeWfY")
<callable-iterator object at 0x009249B0>
>>> for x in p.finditer("aWbWcXdXeWfY"):
...     print x.groups()
...
('aW',)
('bW',)
('eW',)

</F>





From crichton314 at btinternet.com  Sun Aug 22 19:06:46 2004
From: crichton314 at btinternet.com (John Crichton)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 16:06:46 -0700
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
References: <mailman.2154.1093185852.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <3b2846c4.0408221506.1c3e33d2@posting.google.com>

Hi,

+1, also, on "using".

John


From Steve.Coates at smiths-aerospace.com  Mon Aug 16 11:08:12 2004
From: Steve.Coates at smiths-aerospace.com (Coates, Steve (ACHE))
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:08:12 -0600
Subject: Why does this (very simple piece of) code does not work?
Message-ID: <3082C9F9373DAD43918C64BAC1CF038C05A11D@cossmgmbx04.email.corp.tld>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: jblazi [mailto:jblazi at hotmail.com]
> Sent: 16 August 2004 14:31
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Re: Why does this (very simple piece of) code does not work?
>

>

> On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:16:21 +0100, Richard Brodie wrote:
>

> > You didn't say what platform you are on but if it's Windows, then
> > colons aren't allowed in filenames.
>

> Yes. Now it seems, my age begins to tell, I did not used to

> be so dumb...
> Thx.
>

> jb
>

I sympathize. I'm fast approaching 40 and I'm sure I'm
not half the engineer I used to be. I think I understand
now why the career path tends towards management...

Steve

(Dribling in the corner)

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From guido at python.org  Fri Aug  6 01:12:45 2004
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 22:12:45 -0700
Subject: Prothon is switching to the .NET platform
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 05 Aug 2004 19:00:49 PDT."
	<000401c47b59$32539220$0d01a8c0@MarkVaio> 
References: <000401c47b59$32539220$0d01a8c0@MarkVaio> 
Message-ID: <200408060512.i765CkN05946@guido.python.org>

Hi Mark,

It was a pleasure to meet you at VanPy, and I was sorry that I had to
leave in the middle of your talk (I had a plane to catch and David had
scared me about delays).

I was pleasantly surprised in hearing your architecture for the
Prothon engine -- it sounded like a fresh look at implementing a
runtime for a Python-like language, and several features (like the
locking strategy) sounded like I should be paying attention to them
for the Python 3000 interpreter.

So now I'm a bit disappointed to hear that you're giving all that up
and switching to the CLR.  I understand your desire to have a large
library available (though most of that library will be class-based,
which may require you to bring classes back in through the back door).
But in practical terms, it makes Prothon a lot less accessible in the
years to come.

I recall that installing .NET on Windows took me half a day.  Maybe
it's gotten better, but I sure can't believe they've shrunk it.  Mono
gives you theoretical support on Linux, but it's even more of a
questionable proposition to actually run it (and its set of supported
runtime libraries has only a small intersection with what's available
in .NET).  Basically, telling people "here's my language, it's a 2 MB
download, and oh, BTW, you also need to install the 200 MB runtime
over there" isn't exactly encouraging people to play with your
language.  Even for apps written in Java this is a significant barrier
-- I have several copies of Java on my hard drive because every
significant application written in Java ends up needing a different
JVM version.  And the JVM I downloaded last year is probably too old
to run this year's crop of bleeding edge Java apps.  Availability of
the CLR is a lot less than Java.

I'm also surprised because you admit to being a poor language designer
(although you picked a great example :-).  I assumed this to mean that
you're having more fun implementing the runtime.  But if you're not
doing it for the language design, and now you're giving up on the
runtime, what's left?

Hoping your website was hacked or it was practical joke,

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)


From http  Sat Aug 21 13:51:28 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 10:51:28 -0700
Subject: Has anyone implemented BASIC in Python?
References: <2oo13eFcj548U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<69cbbef2.0408210857.79439c35@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <7x657c8jmn.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

has.temp2 at virgin.net (has) writes:
> > Has anyone ever tried implementing a simple unstructured BASIC dialect 
> > in Python? I'm getting interested in language implementation, and 
> > looking at a reasonably simple example like that could be pretty 
> > interesting.
> 
> Dunno about BASIC, but Ian Bicking has done Logo:
> http://pylogo.sourceforge.net/

Dunno about Logo but I did Forth just out of general perversity.
I suppose I could post it.


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Aug 24 18:36:21 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:36:21 -0400
Subject: J2 0-2-6 is available
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E52@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <cggft5$a2q$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Robert Brewer" <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote in message
news:3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E52 at exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net...
There's a semi-final version of the J2 proposal available:

http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html

I think we've heard all the nits by now, and any paragraphs which I felt
were weak have been rewritten. Important changes since 0.2.1:

1) There's a new Conclusion.
2) At Guido's request, I removed "wiggle room" with an explicit
statement in the intro: anything not addressed in the proposal defaults
to the @pie implementation currently in CVS. There's a list of what is
outside the scope of the proposal.
3) I softened the recommendation of the keyword "using" a smidgen
(mostly downplaying argument III over the other two).
4) The number of proposed grammars is now one (there were two).

If I had another 4 hours or so ;) I'd rewrite it in more direct
language. Boy, is it academic in tone--my great weakness. Meh.

At this time, I'd like to call for negative signatories. That is, if you
believe the @pie syntax is better than suite-and-keyword, please drop me
an email, either privately or on the list. I'd like your full name, and
*some* indication of why you are rejecting it. One short sentence is
enough, but if you want to write more, that's fine. I'll try to merge
the rejection comments into a readable summary in that section of the
document.

Please don't sign it yet if you favor the proposal. I'd like a day to
consider the rejection notices. I'm equally open to doing more rewriting
to accomodate the blockers, or freezing it as it stands--it depends to a
large extent on the responses I get from the detractors in the next 24
hours. If there are no reconsiderations, I'll call for positive
signatories (those in favor) tomorrow.

I think we have a good chance of success, where Guido can get a clear
picture of the situation and make a balanced decision. Thanks again to
those who suggested syntax, started polls, managed threads, wrote code
(!) and commented on the draft.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list





From fumanchu at amor.org  Tue Aug 24 02:06:08 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 23:06:08 -0700
Subject: On consensus decision-making (was Re: Alternative
	decoratorsyntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WEDONE?)
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E4F@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> (Of course, there's also my cunning plot to use this particular issue
> to get a couple more people involved in Python's development process -
> we now have at least one person who's obviously a good person to write
> up future PEPs, and another who's now delved into Python's innards in
> a non-trivial way.... moohahaha)

Funny, I was just thinking today about Brett, trying to hand off the
summaries. But I concluded I'm 6 months to a year away from that in
terms of being able to _accurately_ decipher the majority of pydev
discussions. So your plot is working somewhat... ;)


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From egbert.list at hccnet.nl  Thu Aug 19 06:16:27 2004
From: egbert.list at hccnet.nl (Egbert Bouwman)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:16:27 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPGEFMCEAA.ben@benlast.com>
References: <20040818174601.GA3863@mirk.lan>
	<HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPGEFMCEAA.ben@benlast.com>
Message-ID: <20040819101627.GA1223@mirk.lan>

On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 06:49:30AM +0100, Ben Last wrote:

> I think the slowing down of the brain due to ageing is compensated for by
> the increase in experience (one makes fewer of the same mistakes again) and
> learning in how to learn :)

I suppose you are right. It is our last resort.
But I am constantly amazed, not only by the number of tools 
and the conceptual difficulty of these tools
that the younger programmers seem to have mastered, 
but also by the wise lessons they derive from living with them.
It was a bit of a surprise that my last teacher, Christopher King,
is sub-twenty (which is very young).

For the elder programmers Python is a godsend.
More than any other language I have used, it helps you to manage 
complexity, and to think about your problem instead of the bytes.

I think the main factors here are:
- the syntax: indentation instead of braces in space.
  My programs look exactly like the pseudocode I used to write.
- high-level constructs where you need them; for me one of them is 
  the ease with which you transform sequences into files, and vice versa.
- the simplicity of handling classes, objects, once you know the basics.
  Thanks to Python thinking with classes has become a way of life.
  It rescued me from the Fortran-PL/I-C-Perl noodle-soup.
egbert
-- 
Egbert Bouwman - Keizersgracht 197 II - 1016 DS  Amsterdam - 020 6257991
========================================================================


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Tue Aug 10 17:35:55 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 17:35:55 -0400
Subject: decorators vs GIL
References: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>
	<mailman.1464.1092156423.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cfb4u4$okp$1@eol.dd.chalmers.se>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408101504070.9982-100000@ccc2.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <cfbf3r$qt0$1@panix3.panix.com>

In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408101504070.9982-100000 at ccc2.wpi.edu>,
Christopher T King  <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote:
>
>The real reason behind the GIL is that the Python interpreter is not
>re-entrant; it keeps internal state in a global structure which must be
>switched out (and stored somewhere) on thread changes.  The real solution
>to this problem is to make the interpreter stateless, thus obviating the
>need for the GIL entirely.  I think this task would be much easier to do
>in Stackless than in CPython, but I may be wrong.

There's no "the" real reason.  Another critical reason is that it's a
design goal of CPython to be a useful glue language for C libraries.
Many libraries use internal static variables....

Until a good API exists on all standard platforms for determining
whether a library call needs a GIL around it, we can't seriously discuss
removing the GIL.  Currently, any library designed to work with Python's
GIL can easily unlock the GIL while it's running "standalone" (no calls
back into Python).
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From jbors at mail.ru  Wed Aug 18 17:48:31 2004
From: jbors at mail.ru (Dmitry Borisov)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 01:48:31 +0400
Subject: Some weird benchmarking numbers
Message-ID: <E1BxYIJ-000ANb-00.jbors-mail-ru@f16.mail.ru>

Guys,
Just get back to the shootout site and was redirected here:
http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/index.php
After I saw psyco having the same benchmarks as Python I tested that by myself and found those numbers to be totally odd.
Here are the tests I've made so far:

( http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/bench/lists/ )
c:\bors>list.py 100
10000
Without psyco  5.00699996948
10000
With psyco  3.02399992943

( http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/bench/sumcol/ )
c:\bors>sum.py 100000
4999950000
Without psyco  0.0999999046326
4999950000
With psyco  0.0599999427795

( http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/bench/ary/ )
c:\bors>ary3.py 10000
1000 10000000
Without psyco  5.66899991035
1000 10000000
With psyco  1.1210000515

I'll try to contact those guys to have it corrected. Anyone volunteer to have other tests compiled ?
Thanks,
Dmitry/


From jmdeschamps at cvm.qc.ca  Mon Aug 16 23:28:59 2004
From: jmdeschamps at cvm.qc.ca (jmdeschamps)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 20:28:59 -0700
Subject: Flython?
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
	<411cbcb1$0$3894$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>
	<W9qdnWhf8u7MI4HcRVn-ow@powergate.ca>
	<30260531.0408131856.5ef3b0d3@posting.google.com>
	<sMednfL4zqTR3b3cRVn-rA@powergate.ca>
	<2oc547F86br8U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <3d06fae9.0408161928.555b1539@posting.google.com>

Daniel Ellison <daniel at syrinx.net> wrote in message news:<2oc547F86br8U1 at uni-berlin.de>...
> Peter Hansen wrote:
> > simo wrote:
> > 
> >> There's a few libraries for making SVG files in PHP, so there may be
> >> Python versions too, but if you want ActionScript then I guess you're
> >> determined to go with Flash instead.....
> > 
> > 
> > Well, SVG and ActionScript have very little, if anything, in
> > common.  On the other hand SVG has much overlap with the rest
> > of the "Flash" system (taken as a nebulous whole), and when
> > supplemented with Javascript, in systems that can handle that,
> > it starts becoming somewhat similar in many ways.
> > 
> > On the other hand, so far I haven't seen signs that SVG
> > support has advanced enough to really be on par with the
> > capabilities (mostly in terms of speed and simplicity) of
> > the little bit of Flash/ActionScript that interests me.
> 
> Not to mention the size and ubiquity of the browser plugin.
> 
> > 
> > My personal goal with this (and I believe Dan's as well)
> > is to be able to create GUI software using ActionScript
> > to write (roughly) the "view" and "controller" portions,
> > with the back end ("model") implemented elsewhere (i.e.
> > on a server) with Python.
> 
> Yes, I'd have to agree with that. The point isn't to get a free 
> replacement for the Flash authoring environment. I own a copy of Flash, 
> and know quite well how to use it: I've been using and programming Flash 
> since v4. No, we want a Pythonic way of producing Flash "swf" files, and 
> in doing so, simplifying (at least) the "view" considerably, and at the 
> same time creating a much more appropriate interface for web applications.
> 
...

> 
> Dan


Well, what about Ming ???
http://www.freenet.org.nz/python/ming

I haven't been able to compile it from source for python 2.3, but
maybe someone out there can .

Jean-Marc
PS I've asked for help on this topic a few times in this list - to no
avail though, so I don't know if anyone as ever done it!


From grv575 at hotmail.com  Mon Aug  9 01:17:13 2004
From: grv575 at hotmail.com (grv)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 05:17:13 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: numarray speed question
References: <953AD3D0Didtoken@128.91.2.239>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408040845120.27254-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<953C4DD4idtoken@128.91.2.239>
	<qnkr7qluxuy.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
	<144d0df.0408070828.338f8c19@posting.google.com>
	<qnkn015ujoh.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
Message-ID: <9540516Didtoken@128.91.2.239>

cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca (David M. Cooke) wrote in 
<qnkn015ujoh.fsf at arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>:

>At some point, grv575 at hotmail.com (grv575) wrote:

>> Heh.  Try timing the example I gave (a += 5) using byteswapped vs.
>> byteswap().  It's fairly fast to do the byteswap.  If you go the
>> interpretation way (byteswapped) then all subsequent array operations
>> are at least an order of magnitude slower (5 million elements test
>> example).
>
>You mean something like
>a = arange(0, 5000000, type=Float64).byteswapped()
>a += 5
>
>vs.
>a = arange(0, 5000000, type=Float64)
>a.byteswap()
>a += 5
>
>? I get the same time for the a+=5 in each case -- and it's only twice
>as slow as operating on a non-byteswapped version. Note that numarray
>calls the ufunc add routine with non-byteswapped numbers; it takes a
>block, orders it correctly, then adds 5 to that, does the byteswap on
>the result, and stores that back. (You're not making a full copy of
>the array; just a large enough section at a time to do useful work.)

It must be using some sort of cache for the multiplication.  Seems like on 
the first run it takes 6 seconds and subsequently .05 seconds for either 
version.

>Maybe what you need is a package designed for *small* arrays ( < 1000).
>Simple C wrappers; just C doubles and ints, no byteswap, non-aligned.
>Maybe a fixed number of dimensions. Probably easy to throw something
>together using Pyrex. Or, wrap blitz++ with boost::python.

I'll check out Numeric first.  Would rather have a drop-in solution (which 
hopefully will get more optimized in future releases) rather than hacking 
my own wrappers.  Is it some purist mentality that's keeping numarray from 
dropping to C code for the time-critical routines?  Or can a lot of the 
speed issues be attributed to the overhead of using objects for the library 
(numarray does seem more general)?


From roy at panix.com  Wed Aug  4 12:58:55 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 12:58:55 -0400
Subject: help: Unit test fixture returning the same object
References: <9895e897.0408031533.26720ba0@posting.google.com>
	<nKGdnfWEjOtspo3cRVn-qg@powergate.ca>
	<9895e897.0408040851.21ac7caa@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <roy-D35DF5.12585504082004@reader1.panix.com>

michael_mccracken at mac.com (Michael McCracken) wrote:
> So, I'm still surprised that id() would point to the same object every
> time, but I'm willing to believe it. However, I don't think that's the
> only thing that's going on - the reason I noticed this in the first
> place is that the setUp method was opening a file and populating some
> lists in my File object, and those lists were accumulating objects
> between test methods.

My first guess would be that you're using class variables instead of 
instance variables, but you say:

> I don't think I'm accidentally using class variables

so I'm stumped.  Can you post your code?


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Mon Aug 23 19:17:25 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 23:17:25 GMT
Subject: __name__ becoming read-write?
References: <uutji0h87t24cb1nej03gdggs0hg6eno3l@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2205.1093275632.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<c94ki0dgh70ud7e1ok8sshlvg4pe96s4h8@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2211.1093279236.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<3b8ki0tlphodtt8ge8an274qp78ihp1i3n@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2223.1093282711.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ultki0h81hl8fmgd452tqsfqihv6hpvege@4ax.com>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 03:17:42 +1000, Anthony Baxter
<anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:00:39 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
>> I see the point.
>> 
>> But.. there is always a but.
>> 
>> I'm thinking now a special sytnax item in the __form__ at the top of
>> function that would:
>> 
>> 1) put one on notice that the function is to be transformed (as in
>> "see below").
>> 
>> 2) allow a name to be assigned to it, which will become the
>> transform's __name__.
>
>This is a bad idea - code inside the function should be executed when
>the function is executed. docstrings are a special-case (because
>they're not actually code),

Well -  accepted that you identify this issue. 

I would be curious if you could see the sense of the apporach I am
suggesting outside of this issue.  

>
>def doc(str):
>    def endoculate(func, str=str):
>        func.__doc__ = str
>        return func
>
>def frobulate(metawhatsit):

I am old enough - I think - to have been frobutaling metawhatsits
since before you were born.  But have not been, as it happens.  So I
recognize that my solution might be a bit frobulated -technically. 

A little fortipation is perhaps all it needs, though.

>Paul Morrow's idea of special magic __foo__ inside the function is
>deeply magical, and not likely to make any new users running across it
>any happier.

Well I still see - by far -  that best fallback position as A1 (the
alpha 2 implementation) - precisely because it implies black magic.
At least to me. 

The least thing I want to see is sweeter, more embedded syntax for
this stuff.  

So I am totally off the "how do we improve the syntax" bus.

> "So wait, this stuff that _looks_ like code in a
>function, isn't actually? what the hell?" The new syntax[1] for
>decorators is at least very obvious that something _new_ is going on.

I am thinking (and I think Paul is thinking) that we can say the same
thing, succintly, in a manner that has precedence in the language

Mine's a one-liner that does not totally relieve the magicians burden
to be - somwhere down the line -  a bit expressive

Art


From skip at pobox.com  Sat Aug 14 18:38:15 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:38:15 -0500
Subject: PEP 318 decorators are not Decorators
In-Reply-To: <Xns9544A70A17365arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>
References: <Xns9543CB4CF5EDFarienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.7>
	<cfhsri$a1q$1@news1.wdf.sap-ag.de>
	<Xns95446284A8DA2arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.29>
	<mailman.1625.1092418237.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Xns9544A70A17365arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>
Message-ID: <16670.37975.895230.979290@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Arien> 3) Won't most programmers think GoF decorators before
    Arien> compiler syntax tree decorators?

    Skip> Not if they are unfamiliar with the GoF patterns (myself included).

    Arien> Google:

    ...

BFD.  Sure, there are tons more application programmers in the world than
compiler geeks, so Google returns many more hits for GoF-style decorators.
So?  The thing is, just because in a verbal Rohrschach test you think "GoF"
when someone says "decorator" doesn't mean everybody else will (or should).
Hell, when someone says "decorator" I usually think of "Queer Eye for the
Straight Guy". <wink>

now-where-were-my-fabric-swatches?-ly, y'rs,

Skip


From zathras at thwackety.com  Sun Aug 22 19:23:32 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 00:23:32 +0100 (BST)
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
In-Reply-To: <7xwtzryql2.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408230004350.22879-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>

On 22 Aug 2004, Paul Rubin wrote:

> "Robert Brewer" <fumanchu at amor.org> writes:
> > -Candidates for keywords have fallen into two or three camps, and
> > emphasize different aspects of decorators:
> >
> > -Declarative: declare, predef, moddef
> > -Transformative: transform, wrap, modify, mutate
> > -Attributive/Annotative: amend, using, having
> > -Directive: pragma, signify
> > -Associative: helper, qualify, qual, meta
> > -Cross-cutting: imbue, endow, bestow, embellish, extend, accum, glom,
> > confer
> > -Prepositions/Adverbs: using, through, per, via, by
>
> Not sure where these would go: prologue, preamble, preface
>
> How about something like "def_using"?

How is def_using different from "using ... def ..." ? ;-)

FWIW, I've spent a significant chunk of today after getting the patch for
J2 working looking at what keywords clash and what doesn't.

   * decorate, transform and declare have clashes with several easy to
     find projects. This includes commonly used things like mailman &
     pyrex.

   * "using" appears to be used only by python itself in webbrowser.py in
     the get function as a single named parameter, however which I can't
     find any project using it.

     I discovered this after replacing "decorate" with "using" and
     rerunning the test suite... Incidentally the syntax also allows
     code like this:

     using:
         staticmethod synchronised memoise deprecated
     def: foo(bar):
         "This function foos bars all day long"
         pass

     Personally, I think that's quite nice. I've not posted the updated
     patch yet because I'm looking at the short/single line version.

Projects I've grepped (and looked through the results) through include:
   wxPython, libxml2, SWIG, PyXML, ZODB4, distutils (as a standalone)
   egenix-mx, Redfoot RDF tools, PyLucene, dbxml
   libxslt, jabber-py, PyEgads, PyChecker, soappy
   m2crypto, epydoc, 4suite, Chandler

At some point Zope and Twisted need checking as well. (I'd like to check
most things, but those 2 strike me as important checks)

On a more general note, I think when suggesting a new keyword how widely
used a keyword is should be taken into account, which really needs to take
into account how widely used projects are that use the keyword.

At the end of the day, hopefully this helps Guido and everyone make a
decision, and helps build consensus either in favour of keyword based
(and a keyword), or towards the current @pie syntax.

Regards,


Michael.



From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Thu Aug 26 21:43:39 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 18:43:39 -0700
Subject: Newbie question on dictionary!!!
References: <494182a9.0408261150.a4c767f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1093571530.913447@news.commspeed.net>


"Balaji" <balaji at email.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:494182a9.0408261150.a4c767f at posting.google.com...
> Hello everybody...
>
> I want to ask a simple question.
>
> Suppose I have an list say g=['a','b','c','d']
>
> and I have an dictionary say k={'b':20,'a':10}
>
> Now I want to sort this dictionary on the basis of the list and if it
> doesnt find any of the element in the list then I wud like to replace
> it with zero..
>
> so I would like to modify k into {'a':10,'b':20,'c':0,'d':0}
>
> I have tried all the built in associated with dict and lists but was
> not able to come up with an solution...
>
> Can anyone help...

Dictionaries are not sortable but you can easily access the values in an
sorted order,

list = ['a','b','d']
dict = {'a':123,'c':456,'b':789}
newdict = {}
l = dict.keys() + list
l.sort()
for i in l:
    if dict.has_key(i):
        newdict[i] = dict[i]
    else:
        newdict[i] = 0
dict = newdict

That should do it,

Tom

     print dict[i]

Tom





From martindemello at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 07:00:19 2004
From: martindemello at yahoo.com (Martin DeMello)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:00:19 GMT
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
	<dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
	<aN5Xc.205341$M95.157379@pd7tw1no>
	<1gj4fb5.607xsc51izh8N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7pjXc.209955$M95.182424@pd7tw1no>

Alex Martelli <aleaxit at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Not leaving stylistic choice (which would lead to more than one obvious
> way to do it) is quite consonant with the Zen of Python.  Of course one
> can't always reach what's preferable, but "your main point" which is
> presumably meant as a criticism of this design choice comes across as
> praise: the design choice follows the overall design's philosophy.

I still feel the the One Obvious Way should have been to return self...

> Guido doesn't like method chaining, so he made a design choice that did
> not allow method chaining, and did not give several equally obvious ways

But that's pretty hard to argue with :)

martin


From maxwell at ldc.upenn.edu  Tue Aug 31 19:29:04 2004
From: maxwell at ldc.upenn.edu (Mike Maxwell)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:29:04 -0400
Subject: sys.stdin.readline()
In-Reply-To: <HBF.20040831jd9s@bombur.uio.no>
References: <367a4461.0408311221.30866c09@posting.google.com>
	<HBF.20040831jd9s@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <ch31jd$6l3u$1@netnews.upenn.edu>

Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
> Mike Maxwell wrote:
>>When I invoke readline() in a for loop, why does it return a series of
>>one-char strings, rather than the full line?
>>
>>>>>for sL in sys.stdin.readline(): print sL
> 
> It does return a full line.  *One* line.  Then your loop iterates
> over the characters in that line.

LoL, thanks!

> Try `for sL in sys.stdin.xreadlines(): print sL'.
> Or in newer Pythons, simply `for sL in sys.stdin: print sL'.

I think I saw that, but when I tried it, I got:

	/lib/python2.3/pydoc.py:250: DeprecationWarning:
	xreadlines is deprecated; use 'for line in file'.

--which got me off on this dead end.

What I was originally trying to do, is to implement a one-liner that 
would act something like 'sed', but applying to Unicode characters.  An 
example would have a command that looked something like
	"s/u'\u0D0A'//"
i.e. delete all instances of the Unicode char U+0D0A (which you can't do 
with 'sed', at least not the version that I'm using).

The guy down the hall does these kinds of things with perl one-liners, 
but I have more dignity than to use perl...  Unfortunately, it's looking 
more and more complex to do one-liners like this in Python.  Am I 
overlooking s.t.?

	Mike Maxwell


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Tue Aug 10 12:55:29 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 09:55:29 -0700
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar,
	but for what exactly? (decorator libraries).
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>	<mailman.1352.1091953503.5135.python-list@python.org>	<roy-0D45FB.09322108082004@reader1.panix.com>	<mailman.1359.1091973019.5135.python-list@python.org>	<roy-032D22.10191908082004@reader1.panix.com>	<mailman.1360.1091975279.5135.python-list@python.org>	<roy-B29ABA.10463808082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1361.1091977078.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <d11dcfba.0408100855.3ac0bf9c@posting.google.com>

Andrew Durdin <adurdin at gmail.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1361.1091977078.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> Well, I think I agree with the principle of limiting the expressions
> to dotted names. Some of the possibilities if you allow arbitrary
> expressions are pretty hairy:
> 
> """
> Things someone might want to do, ordered roughly from most reasonable
> to least reasonable ;)
> @foo().bar()
> @foo or bar
> @mydecorators['foo']
> @lambda f: foo(f) or bar(f)
> """
> (from http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046673.html)

I don't remember who, but someone already mentioned that you can do
all of these things with the limited syntax if you really want to,
either with operator.* or eval:

@eval("foo().bar()")
@eval("foo or bar")
@operator.getitem(mydecorators, 'foo')
@eval("lambda f: foo(f) or bar(f)")

There are probably ways to avoid some of the evals, but I haven't
really thought too hard about it.

Steve


From max at alcyone.com  Tue Aug 17 17:32:30 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:32:30 -0700
Subject: Mind.py
References: <41220b22@news.victoria.tc.ca>
Message-ID: <4122796E.9652CCAE@alcyone.com>

"Arthur T. Murray" wrote:

> Now, suppose that you wanted to write an AI in Python that would
> implement your mind-model and allow it to grow, mutate, develop.
> Here is one possible scenario.

http://www.nothingisreal.com/mentifex

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ Can I be your friend / 'Till the end
    -- India Arie


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 12:44:59 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 02:44:59 +1000
Subject: On consensus decision-making (was Re: Alternative decorator
	syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WEDONE?)
In-Reply-To: <du7n00ngmeh.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>
References: <mailman.2153.1093185119.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<z-adnRDpSpoTJrXcRVn-iw@powergate.ca>
	<du7n00ngmeh.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082209446b47702c@mail.gmail.com>

On 22 Aug 2004 19:36:38 +0300, Ville Vainio <ville at spammers.com> wrote:
> So, to proceed building community consensus for J2, the community
> needs to be asked whether they would block J2 (possibly with the
> "using" keyword) in favor of another non- at pie syntax?

I'd phrase it more as "does anyone have any absolute show-stopper
problems with this syntax?" 

Plenty of people will hate _any_ new syntax - often (based on the hate
mail I've received) for no clearly articulated reasons.


From zanesdad at bellsouth.net  Tue Aug 31 18:56:06 2004
From: zanesdad at bellsouth.net (Jeremy Jones)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 18:56:06 -0400
Subject: Bandwidth Calculator
In-Reply-To: <10j9plefkvdfq96@corp.supernews.com>
References: <10j9plefkvdfq96@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <41350206.9010106@bellsouth.net>

Maboroshi wrote:

>Hi I was wondering if there was anyway of determing the use of Bandwidth on
>a remote computer in python through the ip address
>
>Any Ideas Cheers
>
>Maboroshi
>
>
>  
>
If the remote computer responds to SNMP and has the MIB available to 
respond to a bandwidth query, you may want to try PySNMP:
http://pysnmp.sourceforge.net/
I've never used it, so I can't attest to its functionality.

Jeremy



From alanmk at hotmail.com  Sun Aug  8 10:40:10 2004
From: alanmk at hotmail.com (Alan Kennedy)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 15:40:10 +0100
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar, but for what exactly? (decorator
 libraries).
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1359.1091973019.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>	<mailman.1352.1091953503.5135.python-list@python.org>	<roy-0D45FB.09322108082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1359.1091973019.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <VWqRc.24593$Z14.7419@news.indigo.ie>

[Anthony Baxter]
> And no, you can't decorate lambda. That 
> would be an obscenity wrapped in a heresy and smacked with the 
> ugly stick.

+1 QOTW >;-)

-- 
alan kennedy
------------------------------------------------------
check http headers here: http://xhaus.com/headers
email alan:              http://xhaus.com/contact/alan


From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug 30 18:38:47 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 22:38:47 GMT
Subject: "Content-Length" header
References: <ch07ui$edo@odbk17.prod.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408310007040.1162-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<4133abbe$0$65600$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <4133ac77$0$65600$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-30, Grant Edwards <grante at visi.com> wrote:
> On 2004-08-30, Peter Kleiweg <in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid> wrote:
>> Justin schreef:
>>
>>> I found the answer.  After about 3 hours of agonizing over it
>>> it turned out to be CASE some webservers are CASE SENSITVE
>>> about their urls and some are not.
>>
>> There are case-insensitive webservers?
>
> Sure. Most are.  AFAIK, apache on Unix has always been case
> sensitve.

Doh.  I obviously misread that...

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  VICARIOUSLY
                                  at               experience some reason
                               visi.com            to LIVE!!


From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Wed Aug 18 16:28:59 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:28:59 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <NJ6dnfnmSa6WIb7cRVn-ig@giganews.com>


32, perl and java refugee





From scobloke2 at infotop.co.uk  Sat Aug 28 11:16:36 2004
From: scobloke2 at infotop.co.uk (Ian Wilson)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 15:16:36 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
In-Reply-To: <cgp2u4$5nk$1@nntp.webmaster.com>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4dyXc.25792$Ot3.22106@twister.nyc.rr.com>
	<878yc0ucyl.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<cgnr8l$egb$1@nntp.webmaster.com>
	<20040827135423.154$1T@newsreader.com>
	<cgp2u4$5nk$1@nntp.webmaster.com>
Message-ID: <cgq7ki$eg1$1@hercules.btinternet.com>

David Schwartz wrote:

> <ctcgag at hotmail.com> wrote in message 
> news:20040827135423.154$1T at newsreader.com...
> 
> 
>>"David Schwartz" <davids at webmaster.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>>    I don't follow you at all. I think you'll find the most useful,
>>>meaningful complaints about, say, a Ford Explorer from the people who
>>>drive one every day.
> 
> 
>>And if they continue to drive one everyday, perhaps you would conclude
>>that their complaints are insincere.
> 
> 
>     That's a load of crap.
> 
>     DS
> 
> 


You're both right but ...

Xah Lee: "I'm starting my own cult to exterminate morons on
this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl."

Pascal Bourguignon: <Xah Lee's website runs on Linux, a Unix-like OS>


Is more like

Joe Blow: I'm going to exterminate all morons who drive a Ford Explorer.

Fred Bloggs: But Joe, you drive a Ford Explorer!


Rather than

Joe Blow: Ford Explorers are a little bit expensive to service and the 
doors squeak after a couple of years.

Fred Bloggs: Thanks for the tip Joe, I see you drive one, so you should 
know.



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sun Aug 29 03:11:20 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 03:11:20 -0400
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com><7xzn4gwgea.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com><1gj7a1o.1a5d2q410jsn2kN%aleaxit@yahoo.com><7xisb4xnh5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com><1gj7c1a.tfdm14p3hclcN%aleaxit@yahoo.com><7xd61benm9.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com><1gj82n3.1ylkr3nierngmN%aleaxit@yahoo.com><cgpj1l$i0f$06$1@news.t-online.com><7xd61b8uh2.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com><mailman.2565.1093723065.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7x1xhqg3kb.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <cgrviq$vdp$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Paul Rubin" <"http://phr.cx"@NOSPAM.invalid> wrote in message 
news:7x1xhqg3kb.fsf at ruckus.brouhaha.com...
> "Terry Reedy" <tjreedy at udel.edu> writes:
>> 'import x' is syntactic sugar for 'x = __import__('x')'.  I do not see 
>> it
>> as necessary that sugar for the common case need cover every possible 
>> case.
>> So, how about giving __import__ had an optional param 'signed' defaulted 
>> to
>> False, to allow signed =True or signed = CA?
>
> Man, that __import__ thing is ugly.

Yes... but importing from signed zips is sufficiently rare and esoteric 
that I would not see surface ugliness that accompanies using current syntax 
as the most important consideration.


>  I think it's better to extend the syntax, e.g.
>  import x(a,b) => __import__('x', {'a':None, 'b':None})
>  import x(a=v1,b=v2)=> __import__('x', {'a':v1, 'b':v2})

Identifier(args) is currently a call of identifier with args and 
overloading that syntax to mean somthing similar but different is, to me, 
even uglier in a different sort of way.

Terry J. Reedy





From sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au  Mon Aug 16 01:06:37 2004
From: sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au (Sam Holden)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 05:06:37 GMT
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1637.1092428855.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<30260531.0408131853.18ec2446@posting.google.com>
	<LIqdnd7Jz9Mspr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <slrnci0g6t.mbs.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 00:44:32 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> simo wrote:
>
>> I'm a Perl programmer at heart - well that and PHP, plus the odd
>> dabbling in C/C++/C# etc.
>> 
>> Anyway, the thought of indentation instead of curly braces really put
>> me off to start with, 
>
> Ah, good.  Someone who was really there, instead of hearsay.
>
> Please, *why* did it put you off?
>
> Didn't you already indent your code consistently?
>
> Didn't you think that the removal of those braces would immediately
> make the code more readable (fewer lines, fewer extra cruft to
> distract the eye) and easier to type?
>
> I'm curious why more people don't have "neat!" as their very
> first thought on encountering this, rather than "yuck!".

Many moons ago when I first programmed in python I disliked the
use of indentation instead of curly braces.

Solely because I was (and still am) from the tab school of indentation
but when copy-n-pasting sample code from an x-term or a web browser
spaces would get inserted and the code wouldn't be valid.

When writing code this isn't a real problem (since not much copy-n-paste
happens), but when playing around with things and trying stuff out it
makes things more painful than they need to be.

Of course that's a problem with the tools and not with the language - a
better editor would fix that as would "smarter" copy-n-paste.

But it was annoying.

The same thing crops up with Makefiles, but is even more annoying in
that domain.

-- 
Sam Holden


From mefjr75 at hotmail.com  Sun Aug  8 22:20:07 2004
From: mefjr75 at hotmail.com (M.E.Farmer)
Date: 8 Aug 2004 19:20:07 -0700
Subject: Python source colorizer
Message-ID: <18282ecb.0408081820.585a0f9c@posting.google.com>

Hello c.l.py!,
    I have just finished this and decided to share.
PySourceColor is a module to convert Python source into colored html.
Yes it has been done before, but I like this better:)
You can easily define your own colorscheme.
example usage:
   # Highlight PySourceColor.py
   python PySourceColor.py
     or 
   # Show help
   python PySourceColor.py -h

######################################################################
# PySourceColor
# A hacked up version of the MoinMoin python parser that 
# was originally submitted / written by J?rgen Hermann to ASPN.
# This does not create w3c valid html, but it works on every 
# browser i've tried so far.(I.E.,Mozilla/Firefox,Opera,wxHTML).
# After experimenting with diffrent html vs CSS + html
# I settled on plain old html because it works!
# Too bad CSS is not supported everywhere yet.
# Hacked by M.E.Farmer Jr. 2004
# Python license
######################################################################

import keyword, os, sys
import cgi, string, cStringIO
import token, tokenize, glob
import getopt, webbrowser, time

__title__ = 'PySourceColor'
__version__ = "ver.1"
__date__ = '2 August 2004'
__author__ = "M.E.Farmer Jr."
__credits__ = '''This was originally submitted / written by J?rgen Hermann 
to ASPN python recipes. I found it in 2003 and integrated it into an editor.
Recent refactoring led me to seperate it. I decided to polish it up a little
and release it in the hope it would be useful.
Python license     M.E.Farmer 2004
'''
# Testing raw and unicode strings
# We do nothing with the value just look at colorizing
_ = (r'raw',r'''raw''',r"raw",r"""raw""")##Raw test
_ = (u'uni',u'''uni''',u"uni",u"""uni""")##Unicode test

# Do not edit
_DOUBLECOMMENT = token.NT_OFFSET + 1   
_CLASS = token.NT_OFFSET + 2
_DEF = token.NT_OFFSET + 3           
_TEXT = token.NT_OFFSET + 4           
_KEYWORD = token.NT_OFFSET + 5      
_SINGLEQUOTE = token.NT_OFFSET + 6    
_DOUBLEQUOTE = token.NT_OFFSET + 7     
_TRIPLESINGLEQUOTE = token.NT_OFFSET + 8
_TRIPLEDOUBLEQUOTE = token.NT_OFFSET + 9
_BACKGROUND = token.NT_OFFSET + 10

######################################################################
# Edit colors and styles to taste
# Create your own scheme, just copy one below , rename and edit.
# Styles are optional: b = bold, i = italic, u = underline
# Color is rgb hex and must be specified. sss#RRGGBB
# Colorscheme names must start with an underscore: _MyColor
######################################################################

_Null = {
    token.ERRORTOKEN:     '#FF8080',# no edit
    token.STRING:         '#000000',# no edit 
    _TEXT:                '#000000',# no edit
    token.NAME:           '#000000',# All Text
    token.NUMBER:        'b#000000',# 0->10
    token.OP:            'b#000000',# ()<>=!.:;^>%, etc...
    tokenize.COMMENT:    'i#000000',# There are 2 types of comment
    _DOUBLECOMMENT:       '#000000',## Like this 
    _CLASS:             'bu#000000',# Class name
    _DEF:                'b#000000',# Def name
    _KEYWORD:            'b#000000',# Python keywords
    _SINGLEQUOTE:         '#000000',# 'SINGLEQUOTE'
    _DOUBLEQUOTE:         '#000000',# "DOUBLEQUOTE"
    _TRIPLESINGLEQUOTE:   '#000000',# '''TRIPLESINGLEQUOTE'''
    _TRIPLEDOUBLEQUOTE:  'i#000000',# """TRIPLEDOUBLEQUOTE"""
    _BACKGROUND:          '#FFFFFF',# Page background color
    }

_Dark = {
    token.ERRORTOKEN:     '#FF8080',# no edit
    token.STRING:         '#FFFFFF',# no edit 
    _TEXT:                '#000000',# no edit
    token.NAME:           '#ffffff',# All Text
    token.NUMBER:         '#FF0000',# 0->10
    token.OP:            'b#FAF785',# Operators ()<>=!.:;^>%, etc...
    tokenize.COMMENT:    'i#45FCA0',# There are 2 types of comment
    _DOUBLECOMMENT:       '#A7C7A9',## Like this 
    _CLASS:              'b#B599FD',# Class name
    _DEF:                'b#EBAE5C',# Def name
    _KEYWORD:            'b#8680FF',# Python keywords
    _SINGLEQUOTE:         '#F8BAFE',# 'SINGLEQUOTE'
    _DOUBLEQUOTE:         '#FF80C0',# "DOUBLEQUOTE"
    _TRIPLESINGLEQUOTE:   '#FF9595',# '''TRIPLESINGLEQUOTE'''
    _TRIPLEDOUBLEQUOTE:   '#B3FFFF',# """TRIPLEDOUBLEQUOTE"""
    _BACKGROUND:          '#000000',# Page background color
    }

 
_Lite = {
    token.ERRORTOKEN:     '#FF8080',# no edit
    token.STRING:         '#000000',# no edit 
    _TEXT:                '#000000',# no edit
    token.NAME:           '#000000',# All Text
    token.NUMBER:         '#FF2200',# 0->10
    token.OP:            'b#303000',# Operators ()<>=!.:;^>%, etc...
    tokenize.COMMENT:     '#007F00',# There are 2 types of comment
    _DOUBLECOMMENT:       '#606060',## Like this 
    _CLASS:               '#0000FF',# Class name
    _DEF:                'b#BF9B00',# Def name
    _KEYWORD:            'b#0000AF',# Python keywords
    _SINGLEQUOTE:         '#600080',# 'SINGLEQUOTE'
    _DOUBLEQUOTE:         '#A0008A',# "DOUBLEQUOTE"
    _TRIPLESINGLEQUOTE:   '#4488BB',# '''TRIPLESINGLEQUOTE'''
    _TRIPLEDOUBLEQUOTE:   '#2299BB',# """TRIPLEDOUBLEQUOTE"""
    _BACKGROUND:          '#FFFFFF',# Page background color
    }

_Idle = {
    token.ERRORTOKEN:     '#FF8080',# no edit
    token.STRING:         '#000000',# no edit 
    _TEXT:                '#000000',# no edit
    token.NAME:           '#000000',# All Text
    token.NUMBER:         '#000000',# 0->10
    token.OP:             '#000000',# Operators ()<>=!.:;^>%, etc...
    tokenize.COMMENT:     '#DD0000',# There are 2 types of comment
    _DOUBLECOMMENT:       '#DD0000',## Like this 
    _CLASS:               '#0000FF',# Class name
    _DEF:                 '#0000FF',# Def name
    _KEYWORD:             '#FF7700',# Python keywords
    _SINGLEQUOTE:         '#00AA00',# 'SINGLEQUOTE'
    _DOUBLEQUOTE:         '#00AA00',# "DOUBLEQUOTE"
    _TRIPLESINGLEQUOTE:   '#00AA00',# '''TRIPLESINGLEQUOTE'''
    _TRIPLEDOUBLEQUOTE:   '#00AA00',# """TRIPLEDOUBLEQUOTE"""
    _BACKGROUND:          '#FFFFFF',# Page background color
    }

_PythonWin = {
    token.ERRORTOKEN:     '#FF8080',# no edit
    token.STRING:         '#000000',# no edit
    _TEXT:                '#000000',# no edit
    token.NAME:           '#303030',# All Text
    token.NUMBER:         '#008080',# 0->10
    token.OP:             '#000000',# ()<>=!.:;^>%, etc...
    tokenize.COMMENT:     '#007F00',# There are 2 types of comment
    _DOUBLECOMMENT:       '#7F7F7F',## Like this 
    _CLASS:              'b#0000FF',# Class name
    _DEF:                'b#007F7F',# Def name
    _KEYWORD:            'b#000080',# Python keywords
    _SINGLEQUOTE:         '#808000',# 'SINGLEQUOTE'
    _DOUBLEQUOTE:         '#808000',# "DOUBLEQUOTE"
    _TRIPLESINGLEQUOTE:   '#808000',# '''TRIPLESINGLEQUOTE'''
    _TRIPLEDOUBLEQUOTE:   '#808000',# """TRIPLEDOUBLEQUOTE"""
    _BACKGROUND:          '#FFFFFF',# Page background color
    }
##################################################################################

def Usage():
    print"""
_______________________________________________________________________________
Example usage:
  # To colorize all .py,.pyw files in cwdir you can also use: . or _
 python PySourceColor.py -i .
  # Using long options w/ =
 python PySourceColor.py --in=c:/myDir/my.py --out=c:/myDir --color=Lite --show
  # Using short options w/out =
 python PySourceColor.py -i c:/myDir/  -c Idle
  # Using any mix 
 python PySourceColor.py --in _ -o=c:/myDir --show
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This module is designed to colorize python source code.
It is a hacked version of MoinMoin python parser recipe.
    -h or --help
        Display this help message.
    -i or --in 
        Input file or dir. (Use any of these for the cwdir . , _ , this)
    -o or --out
        Optional, output dir for the colorized source
            default: output dir is input dir.
    -c or --color
        Optional. Null, Dark, Lite, Idle, Pythonwin, create your own!

            default: Dark
    -s or --show
        Optional, Show webpage after creation.
            default: no show
_______________________________________________________________________________
"""

def Main():
    '''This code gathers the command line arguments 
       and tries to do something reasonable with them
    '''
    try:
        # try to get command line args 
        opts, args = getopt.getopt(sys.argv[1:],
                     "hsi:o:c:", ["help", "show", "input=", "out=", "color="])
    except getopt.GetoptError:
        # on error print help information and exit:
        Usage()
        sys.exit(2)
    # init some names
    input = None
    output = None
    scheme = None

    # if we have args then process them
    for o, a in opts:
        if o in ("-h", "--help"):
            Usage()
            sys.exit()
        if o in ("-o", "--out"):
            output = a
        if o in ("-i", "--input"):
            input = a
            if input in('.','_'):
                input = os.getcwd()
        if o  in ("-s", "--show"):
            show = 1
        else:
            show = 0
        if o in ("-c", "--color"):
            try:
               scheme = eval('_%s'%a)
            except:
               scheme = None

    if input == None:
        # if there was no input specified then we try to
        # parse ourselves and do it in diffrent flavors.
        WebIt(sys.argv[0], '/MyDir/null', _Null, 1)
        WebIt(sys.argv[0], '/MyDir/dark', _Dark, 1)
        WebIt(sys.argv[0], '/MyDir/lite', _Lite, 1)
        WebIt(sys.argv[0], '/MyDir/idle', _Idle, 1)
        WebIt(sys.argv[0], '/MyDir/pythonwin', _PythonWin, 1)
    else:
        # if there was at least an input given we can proceed
        WebAll(input, output, scheme, show)

def WebAll(sourcePath, outdir=None, colors=None, show=0):
    ''' Converts all python source in the given directory to html
    '''
    c=0
     # If it is a filename then WebIt
    if not os.path.isdir(sourcePath):
        if os.path.isfile(sourcePath):
            c+=1
            WebIt(sourcePath, outdir, colors, show)
    # If we pass in a dir we need to walkdir for files.
    # Then we need to colorize them with WebIt
    else:
        fileList = WalkDir(sourcePath)
        if fileList != None:
            for i in fileList:
                c+=1
                WebIt(i, outdir, colors, show)
    print'Completed colorizing %s source files.'% str(c)

def WebIt(sourcePath, outdir=None, colors=None, show=0):
    ''' Converts python source to html.
    '''
    print" Converting %s into HTML" % sourcePath                
    if colors == None:
        # Default colorscheme
        colors = _Dark
    # If no outdir is given we use the sourcePath
    if outdir == None:
        htmlPath = sourcePath + '.html'
    else:
        # If we do give an outdir, and it does
        # not exist , it will be created.
        if not os.path.isdir(outdir):
            os.makedirs(outdir)
        sourceName = os.path.basename(sourcePath)
        htmlPath = os.path.join(outdir,sourceName)+'.html'
        print "  Output to %s"%htmlPath
    # Open the text and do the parsing.
    source = open(sourcePath).read()
    Parser(source, colors, sourcePath, open(htmlPath, 'wt')).format(None, None)
    if show:
        # load HTML page into the default web browser.
        # slower than os.startfile or os.system, but more universal
        try:
            webbrowser.open_new(htmlPath)
        except:
            pass
    return htmlPath

def WalkDir(dir):
    '''Return a list of .py and .pyw files from a given directory.
    '''
    # Get a list of files that match *.py*
    GLOB_PATTERN = os.path.join(dir, "*.[p][y]*")
    pathlist = glob.glob(GLOB_PATTERN)
    # Now filter out all but py and pyw
    filterlist = [x for x in pathlist 
                        if x.endswith('.py')
                        or x.endswith('.pyw')]
    if filterlist != []:
        # if we have a list send it
        return filterlist
    else:
        return None

class Parser:
    """ MoinMoin python parser heavily chopped :)
    """
    def __init__(self, raw, colors, title, out = sys.stdout):
        ''' Store the source text.
        '''
        self.raw = string.strip(string.expandtabs(raw))
        self.out = out
        self.title = os.path.basename(title)
        self.ClassFlag = 0
        self.DefFlag = 0
        self.colors = colors
        # Name: Date stamp top
        self.header = 0
        # Name: Date stamp bottom
        self.footer = 0

    def format(self, formatter, form):
        ''' Parse and send the colored source.
        '''
        # Store line offsets in self.lines
        self.lines = [0, 0]
        pos = 0

        # Gather lines
        while 1:
            pos = string.find(self.raw, '\n', pos) + 1
            if not pos: break
            self.lines.append(pos)
        self.lines.append(len(self.raw))

        # Wrap text in a filelike object
        self.pos = 0
        text = cStringIO.StringIO(self.raw)

        # Html start
        self.doPageStart()

        # Parse the source.
        ## Tokenize calls the __call__ 
        ## function for each token till done.
        try:
            tokenize.tokenize(text.readline, self)
        except tokenize.TokenError, ex:
            msg = ex[0]
            line = ex[1][0]
            self.out.write("<h3>ERROR: %s</h3>%s\n" % (
                msg, self.raw[self.lines[line]:]))

        # Html end
        self.doPageEnd()


    def __call__(self, toktype, toktext, (srow,scol), (erow,ecol), line):
        ''' Token handler.
        '''
        style = ''
        # calculate new positions
        oldpos = self.pos
        newpos = self.lines[srow] + scol
        self.pos = newpos + len(toktext)

        # handle newlines
        if toktype in [token.NEWLINE, tokenize.NL]:
            self.out.write('\n')
            return

        # send the original whitespace, if needed
        if newpos > oldpos:
            self.out.write(self.raw[oldpos:newpos])

        # skip indenting tokens
        if toktype in [token.INDENT, token.DEDENT]:
            self.pos = newpos
            return

        # map token type to a color group
        if token.LPAR <= toktype and toktype <= token.OP:
            toktype = token.OP
        elif toktype == token.NAME and keyword.iskeyword(toktext):
            toktype = _KEYWORD

        # If the keyword is class or def then we set a flag
        # the next word gets set to the class/def name color.
        if self.ClassFlag or self.DefFlag:
            # Sets the color if it was a class or def name
            if self.ClassFlag:
                toktype = _CLASS
                self.ClassFlag = 0 
            elif self.DefFlag:
                toktype = _DEF
                self.DefFlag = 0
        else:
            # Sets a flag if it was a class or def
            # next token will be colored.
            if toktext =='class':
                self.ClassFlag = 1
            elif toktext == 'def':
                self.DefFlag = 1

        # Extended to seperate the diffrent string types..
        # plus raw and unicode types
        if toktype == token.STRING:
            if (toktext[:3] == "'''") or (
                toktext[:4] == "r'''") or (
                toktext[:4] == "u'''"):
                toktype = _TRIPLESINGLEQUOTE
            elif (toktext[:3] == '"""') or (
                   toktext[:4] == 'r"""') or (
                   toktext[:4] == 'u"""'):
                toktype = _TRIPLEDOUBLEQUOTE
            elif (toktext[:1] == '"') or (
                   toktext[:2] == 'r"') or (
                   toktext[:2] == 'u"'):
                toktype = _DOUBLEQUOTE
            elif (toktext[:1] == "'") or (
                   toktext[:2] == "r'") or (
                   toktext[:2] == "u'"):
                toktype = _SINGLEQUOTE

        # Exetended to seperate the diffrent comment types
        elif toktype == tokenize.COMMENT:
            if toktext[:2] == "##":
                toktype = _DOUBLECOMMENT

        # Get the colors from the dictionary for the standard tokens
        color = self.colors.get(toktype, self.colors[_TEXT])
        otherstart = ''
        otherend = ''
        splitpoint = color.find('#')
        tags = color[:splitpoint].lower()
        color = color[splitpoint:]
        
        # Check for styles and set them if needed..(b=bold, i=italics)
        if 'b' in tags:
            otherstart += '<b>'
            otherend += '</b>'
        if 'i' in tags:
            otherstart += '<i>'
            otherend += '</i>'
        if 'u' in tags:
            otherstart += '<u>'
            otherend += '</u>'

        # Error tokenizing ..red boxes
        if toktype == token.ERRORTOKEN:
            style = ' style="border: solid 1.5pt #FF0000;"'

        # send text
        self.out.write('<font color="%s"%s>%s' % (color, style, otherstart))
        self.out.write(cgi.escape(toktext))
        self.out.write('%s</font>'% (otherend,))
        return

    def doPageStart(self):
        self.out.write('<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD \
                          HTML 3.2 Final//EN"\n')
        self.out.write('<html><head><title>%s</title>\n'% (self.title))
        self.out.write('<!--This document created by %s %s on: %s-->\n'%
                                        (__title__,__version__,time.ctime()))
        self.out.write('<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" \
                         content="text/html;charset=iso-8859-1" />\n')
        # Get background color and check for styles and ignore all but b,i,u
        color = self.colors.get(_BACKGROUND, self.colors[_TEXT])
        color = color[color.find('#'):]
        if color[:1] != '#': 
            self.out.write('</head><body bgcolor="#000000">\n')
        else:
            self.out.write('</head><body bgcolor="%s">\n'% color)
        # Write a little info at the top.
        if self.header:
            self.doPageHeader()
        self.out.write('<pre><font face="Lucida Console, Courier New">\n')
        #self.out.write('<pre>\n')

    def doPageHeader(self):
            color = self.colors.get(token.NAME, self.colors[_TEXT])
            color = color[color.find('#'):]
            self.out.write(' <b><u><font color="%s">%s    %s</font></u></b>\n'%
                                            (color, self.title, time.ctime()))
    def doPageFooter(self):
            color = self.colors.get(token.NAME, self.colors[_TEXT])
            color = color[color.find('#'):]
            self.out.write(' <b><u><font color="%s">%s    %s</font></u></b>\n'%
                                              (color, self.title,time.ctime()))
    def doPageEnd(self):
        self.out.write('</pre>\n')
        # Write a little info at the bottom
        if self.footer:
            self.doPageFooter()
        # Write a little info in the web page source
        self.out.write('<!--This document created by %s ver.%s on: %s-->\n'%
                                        (__title__,__version__,time.ctime()))
        self.out.write('</body></html>\n')

if __name__ == '__main__':
    Main()


From ivoras at __geri.cc.fer.hr  Thu Aug  5 17:07:43 2004
From: ivoras at __geri.cc.fer.hr (Ivan Voras)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 23:07:43 +0200
Subject: psyco out of memory
In-Reply-To: <m3acx9tp5b.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
References: <cetpoc$udc$1@bagan.srce.hr>
	<m3acx9tp5b.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <ceu7jt$e6a$1@bagan.srce.hr>

Michael Hudson wrote:

>>Fatal Python error: psyco: out of memory
>>Abort (core dumped)
> 
> 
> Hum.  Are you using the ivm or the x86 backend?

Don't know. How do I tell?

> Also, you might have better luck just using range()...

Tried it. Same thing.

-- 
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nath Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't
you understand?


From martin at v.loewis.de  Tue Aug 17 14:17:41 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 20:17:41 +0200
Subject: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xf3'
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1781.1092730889.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <4120F820.4000703@fusiondementes.com>	<mailman.1775.1092723467.5135.python-list@python.org>	<4121A8DA.30802@v.loewis.de>
	<mailman.1781.1092730889.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <41224bc0$0$13029$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

Martin Slouf wrote:
>>- print a repr() of the unicode object instead of
>>  the unicode object itself. This will work on all
>>  terminals, and show hex escapes of non-ASCII characters.
> 
> 
> just to make sure:
> 
> override the object's __repr__(self) method to st. like:
> 
> class my_string(string):
>     def __repr__(self)
> 	tmp = unicode(self.attribute1 + " " + self.attribute2)
> 	return tmp
> 
> and use 'my_string' class without any worries instead of classical
> string?

No. Assume yyy is a Unicode object which potentially contains
non-printable characters. Instead of doing

    print yyy

do

   print repr(yyy)

> my system is debian GNU/Linux stable, im using it for a very, very long
> time, though i did not changed any terminal settings but the very
> basics.  My locales are properly set, im using LC_* environment
> variables to set default locale to czech environment with ISO-8859-2
> charset.  Terminal is capable of displaying 8bit charsets, im not sure
> about unicode charsets -- never tried, never needed.

I see. Could it be that you are using Python 2.1, then? Because in
Python 2.3, printing Czech characters to the terminal should work
just fine. Please do

Python 2.3.4 (#2, Aug  5 2004, 09:33:45)
[GCC 3.3.4 (Debian 1:3.3.4-7)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
 >>> import sys
 >>> sys.stdout.encoding
'ISO-8859-15'

> if 0:
>     # Enable to support locale aware default string encodings.
>     import locale
>     loc = locale.getdefaultlocale()
>     if loc[1]:
>         encoding = loc[1]
> 
> so i guess it is never done :(

You don't need to change the default encoding. Instead,
sys.stdout.encoding is used for printing to the terminal (in 2.3 and
later).

> did you yourself changed it?

No. It will work out of the box.

> well, if a piece of information like you gave to me was contained in
> standard python documentation, probably there will be less
> misunderstanding about this issue.

What piece specifically are you referring to? It is all mentioned
in the standard Python documentation.

> #! /usr/bin/env python
> # -*- coding: UTF-8 -*-
> at the begginnig of my every script, the example above still has to 
> be converted -- because of the iso-8859-1 you use in "L?wis"?

Yes, and no. Yes, it still has to be converted. UTF-8 is *not*
Unicode; it is a byte encoding, and you cannot mix Unicode
strings and byte strings. No, if I use UTF-8 in my source code,
then "L?wis" will be encoded in UTF-8, not in ISO-8859-1.

> can i ommit the conversion (ie. is it done automatically for me as if
> i write
> u"Martin v. " + unicode("L?wis", "ISO-8859-1")
> )?

You can, but you shouldn't. So I won't tell you how you could do that.

> dont understand -- which library?

The ODBC library, for example, or PyQt.

Regards,
Martin


From tchur at optushome.com.au  Tue Aug  3 17:01:05 2004
From: tchur at optushome.com.au (Tim Churches)
Date: 04 Aug 2004 07:01:05 +1000
Subject: intersection of 2 strings
In-Reply-To: <e3dbc412.0408030437.bc62176@posting.google.com>
References: <e3dbc412.0408030437.bc62176@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1091566865.1233.6.camel@emilio>

On Tue, 2004-08-03 at 22:37, Antoine Logean wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> What is the easiest way to get the intersection of two strings in
> python (a kind a "and" operator) ?
> ex:
> 
> string_1 = "the_car_of_my_fried_is_bigger_as_mine_but_my_girlfriend_is_more_beautifull"
> 
> string_2 =
> "my_girlfriend_is_more_beautifull_and_has_blue_eyes"
> 
> and the intersection :
> string_1 "and" string_2 = "my_girlfriend_is_more_beautifull"
> 
> thanks for your help

>From your example, I suspect that you really want to find the "longest
common subsequence" of the two strings, rather than the intersection,
because surely the first occurrences of "my" and "is" in string_1 also
qualify for being in the the intersection set of string_1 and string_2.
It is a bit hard to know what you mean by "intersection" when it is not
clear whether you regard the strings as sets of characters or sets of
words.

There is a public domain implementation of an LCS algorithm by Yusuke
Shinyama at http://www.unixuser.org/~euske/python/lcs.py - and it
produces the result you are expecting from your test data.

-- 

Tim C

PGP/GnuPG Key 1024D/EAF993D0 available from keyservers everywhere
or at http://members.optushome.com.au/tchur/pubkey.asc
Key fingerprint = 8C22 BF76 33BA B3B5 1D5B  EB37 7891 46A9 EAF9 93D0





From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 12:41:10 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 02:41:10 +1000
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051213180.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<opsb9g3hjudgjose@mail.yahoo.it>
	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051213180.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040805094176814bbc@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 12:29:51 -0400, Christopher T King <squirrel at wpi.edu> wrote:
> What does one do if a decorator raises an exception?  

def deco(func):
      raise TypeError

@deco
def foo():
    print "hello"



> If it's something
> necessary to the functioning of the code (say, classmethod or
> staticmethod), then all is as it should be.  But what if it's not?  What
> if you're using a run-time type checking library, or a code optimizer,
> that may not be installed?  In that case you would most likely want to let
> that decoration fail silently. 

Silently failing is completely non-pythonic. If you really wanted to 
handle a missing decorator, something like 
missingdec = lambda x:x 
would do this for you.

> Decorators in general are the right solution for the wrong problem (as I
> detailed in another thread).  They are being introduced much too
> prematurely, and have not been given time to be able to have been thought
> through well enough.  The @ syntax is the result of trying to shoehorn too
> many solutions into one fix.

Too prematurely?? staticmethod and classmethod were introduced in 2.2!
PyObjC, ctypes, Jython and IronPython can all do with using them, as can
rather a lot of other chunks of code. Anything that applies metadata to 
functions can use this - look at all the various places where people are 
putting stuff in docstrings as a current hack.

> They purport to solve the problems of function type declaration
> (class/static), function attributes, runtime type checking, and general
> function mangling, when each of these (save general function mangling)
> already have distinct solutions in nearly every other language.  The first
> three problems are currently implemented as hacks in Python that happen to
> fall under the category of "general function mangling".  Streamlining the
> hack is not the answer.

Or, alternately, they're another tool in the toolbox, along with
metaclasses and
the like.

Anthony


From cliechti at gmx.net  Tue Aug 17 16:19:52 2004
From: cliechti at gmx.net (Chris Liechti)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 20:19:52 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: serial and threads
References: <39ba6e78.0408170215.59f5bfc0@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Xns9548E32B8B9A3cliechtigmxnet@62.2.16.4>

natunika at gmx.de (Silke) wrote in 
news:39ba6e78.0408170215.59f5bfc0 at posting.google.com:

> I'm trying to write a program in python using the modules
> 'serialwin32' and 'thread' to create one thread that writes to a

if you mean that serialwin32 from pyserial, then there is an example of a 
tcp<->serial gateway:
http://cvs.sf.net/viewcvs.py/pyserial/pyserial/examples/tcp_serial_redirect
.py?rev=1.2&view=auto
(one line URL)

i'd sugest to import "serial" and not the platform modules. that way you 
have protablity to other OS for free, and you speak in the same terms as 
the others do.

chris

-- 
Chris <cliechti at gmx.net>



From rob at nospam.net  Tue Aug 17 09:52:55 2004
From: rob at nospam.net (Robert Ferber)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:52:55 +0200
Subject: Databases: Getting values by column name
Message-ID: <o6f9v1-6si.ln1@pilz.hasos.com>

Hi,

I can't find any good documentation about the Python-database module, all I
found was this rudimentary (no examples, no references) piece here:

http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0249.html

Anyway, this and also this tutorial here:

http://www.devshed.com/c/a/Python/MySQL-Connectivity-With-Python/2/

only use database rows as sequences, ie as arrays with numerical index.
This gives you loads of problems when using "select *" and also bad code
readability when selecting specific columns.

Is there a way to use them as dictionaries, ie with Index-Strings (=column
names) as indexes?

BTW, is there any good searchable reference to Python's functions, with
examples and cross-references to similar functions?

Thanks a lot,

Robert


From della at toglimi.linux.it  Fri Aug 20 04:26:27 2004
From: della at toglimi.linux.it (Matteo Dell'Amico)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:26:27 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <TAiVc.49092$OH4.1548746@twister1.libero.it>

I, J2 (I find "transform" a good choice for a keyword), H

-- 
Ciao,
Matteo


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Mon Aug 30 13:01:49 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 17:01:49 GMT
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2584.1093824257.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <14JYc.8263$6o3.4262@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>


"Robert Brewer" <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote in message
news:mailman.2584.1093824257.5135.python-list at python.org...
Arthur wrote:
> Against.
>
> With some commitment.
>
> I have not read the J2 psper...

>>Let me know when you have and I'll add your name to the list.

I have, now.

Nicely crafted.  but I do think I had the info I needed to vote, from the
discussion.

And I am not arguing that J2 is not "better", in some sense. But I am
concluding that the normal rules for better don't apply here.

There is some other syntactical aim here that I wouldn't call "sugar". Once
again, in the context of "decorators", we might need a new word to express
what the intention is here.

If a core argument in favor is to shortcut programmer input, I think it
should be expressed as an unadorned shortcut.  And think @ expresses the
intent, in this respect more baldly and clearly.

Put me as against.

It should clinch it for you ;)

ART




From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Aug 21 17:27:56 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (Simon John)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 14:27:56 -0700
Subject: Global config option - import issues again.....
Message-ID: <cg8eos$87v@odah37.prod.google.com>

I have a program that consists of one main module and lots of small
sub-modules.

In the main module I open a text file and grep for a language setting,
this language setting will then be used as the module name of a config
file to import.

E.g. "Language=en" means config_en.py is imported as config,
"Language=fr" means config_fr.py is imported as config....

I manage this by executing a string of the language/import commmand
such as:

# execute string like "import config_en as config"
global lang_import
lang_import = "import config_" + language + " as config"
exec lang_import

Then the modules imported by the main module refer to config.CONSTANT

The problem is, that lang_import cannot be seen outside of the main
module, it's not truly global, so "exec lang_import" in the sub-modules
doesn't work.

I tried defining a method and importing that, but it doesn't work, e.g.

# main module
def lang():
import config_en as config

# sub-module
from main_module import lang;
lang()

Any ideas? Maybe some other way to import a module with a dynamic
name....



From ken.beesley at xrce.xerox.com  Sun Aug 22 11:37:33 2004
From: ken.beesley at xrce.xerox.com (Ken Beesley)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 17:37:33 +0200
Subject: unicode name for \u000a
In-Reply-To: <20040822141125.956A61E4007@bag.python.org>
References: <20040822141125.956A61E4007@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <4128BDBD.1020807@xrce.xerox.com>

>
>
>"Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> writes:
>
>  
>
>>No. <control> is not a character name. The unicodedata.name function
>>returns the official character name, so it MUST NOT return an alias
>>(which rules out your second alternative).
>>    
>>
> <>Tor Iver Wilhemsen responds:


> <>Then why not return None or the empty string instead of raising an
> exception?

Now that we understand that a number of Unicode characters
do not have official names, the intended solution would seem
to be the use of the optional second argument to
unicodedata.name(unichr [, default]) 

"If no name is defined, default is returned."

As in the following script, which reads a UTF-8 file and prints
out the code point value and the name (if any) or "No Name".


import sys, codecs, unicodedata

fp = codecs.open(sys.argv[1], "r", "utf-8")

ustr = fp.read()
pos = 0

for char in ustr:
    print "%d %04x %s" % (pos, ord(char), unicodedata.name(char, "No Name"))
    pos += 1


From tdelaney at avaya.com  Mon Aug 16 23:47:54 2004
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy))
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:47:54 +1000
Subject: <probably bad URL>
Message-ID: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01D58963@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

Peter Hansen wrote:

>> In what ways would I get dorked if I use this website?
> 
> 1. Please define "dorked" in this context.
> 
> 2. What, if anything, does this have to do with Python.
> 
> 3. Why do you think we might know anything about that site?

My presumption is it's spam, and the web site is a trap.

Tim Delaney


From mwilson at the-wire.com  Mon Aug 16 13:59:24 2004
From: mwilson at the-wire.com (Mel Wilson)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:59:24 -0400
Subject: Decorator "platform"
References: <2nsoofF49frcU1@uni-berlin.de> <87zn50nll4.fsf@pobox.com>
	<vsqdnan9bfMMaIbcRVn-hg@comcast.com> <87hdr5mq5g.fsf@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <8XPIBls/KPgf089yn@the-wire.com>

In article <87hdr5mq5g.fsf at pobox.com>, jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee) wrote:
>I don't doubt the utility, on a case-by-case basis, of some of the
>uses of decorators that people are devising, and will continue to
>devise.  I do fear that this is a pressure towards 'Babel-ization' of
>the language.

   It starts to remind me of a kind of obfuscation, codable
in, say, C++, where the visible text of the program is
actually irrelevant, and all the real computing is done as
side-effects of the constructors.

>I don't honestly know whether that fear is justified -- [ ... ]

   Ditto.

        Regards.        Mel.


From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Fri Aug 20 10:09:27 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:09:27 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2omet9Fc2v4mU1@uni-berlin.de>

Paul McGuire wrote:

[Decorators]

J2 J2 J2

Reinhold

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From martin at v.loewis.de  Sun Aug  8 03:38:55 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 09:38:55 +0200
Subject: [Python-Dev] RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <cf361r$8jt$1@news1.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1196.1091715567.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cev7mj$lt6$1@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
	<4113429a$0$26993$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<cevs3k$386$1@news5.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
	<41137960.6050400@v.loewis.de>
	<cf056e$glb$1@news3.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
	<4113dddd$0$12507$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<cf361r$8jt$1@news1.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
Message-ID: <4115D88F.8020802@v.loewis.de>

vincent wehren wrote:
> Yes. That makes sense. So I checked the registry with regedit.
> "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes" seems - for whatever reason - to be 
> busted for this particular user. At least I can't open it manually with 
> regedit, so my tentative guess is the same applies to the installer. 
> Sorry I didn't check this first!

Yes, saw that. I'm not faulting you though - I do believe that the
behaviour in this case should be improved somehow.

Regards,
Martin


From cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca  Sat Aug 21 20:22:05 2004
From: cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca (David M. Cooke)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 20:22:05 -0400
Subject: Array of objects in numpy.
References: <2olrdjFbgdd0U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <qnk657cauoi.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>

At some point, Pepijn Kenter <pepijn.kenter at nospam.dlr.nl> wrote:

> Hi all.
>
> I'm new to python and want to use it for an assignment.
>
> I have succesfully implemented a galois field class including the _repr__,
> __mul__, __div__, __add__ and __sub__ methods.

including __r* variants too?

> Basically a galois field is
> an integer modulo a prime number. Now I want to make a matrix of these
> galois field objects using the numpy library. Constructing, printing and
> multiplying arrays of GF's works fine. However there are several functions
> that give problems, most importantly: dot, repeat. 
>
> I'm affraid I've forgotten my memmory stick with the code and error
> messages :-(, so I have to keep my question general.

I'm shooting in the dark here, as I presume you're using Numeric, as
opposed to numarray.

> If I recall correctly,
> the repeat function complained that my GF object didn't have the
> __getelem__ method implemented (IMO this should not be necessary),

My guess is that you're using Numeric.repeat incorrectly. Note that for
Numeric.repeat(a, repeats), a has to be array-like (more specifically,
array(a) can work).

> the dot function complained about an unsupported type.

Don't know about that one. Maybe if you haven't added __rmul__ or
__radd__ to your class.

> I know this is not the
> preffered way of asking for help on usenet but I'd like some feedback so I
> can work this weekend on the problem. I can use the dot & repeat with
> normal numpy arrays of floats, so I'm sure it is not due to my inexperience
> with python.
>
> Does anybody have experience using object arrays in numpy? Should I be able
> to get the dot & repeat function working, and what methods should my GF
> object support? Or are there known problems and pitfalls?

Have you tried numarray? The numarray.objects module handles object
arrays. It's being actively worked on, as opposed to Numeric.

-- 
|>|\/|<
/--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
|David M. Cooke
|cookedm(at)physics(dot)mcmaster(dot)ca


From skip at pobox.com  Wed Aug 11 10:55:32 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 09:55:32 -0500
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar,
 but for what exactly? (decorator libraries).
In-Reply-To: <df5jh0l431m68cv7tf1li3b47jgi7dphlt@4ax.com>
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
	<mailman.1352.1091953503.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-0D45FB.09322108082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1467.1092158118.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<df5jh0l431m68cv7tf1li3b47jgi7dphlt@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <16666.13156.467986.822287@montanaro.dyndns.org>

    >> Yes (using a class instead of a module simply for convenience):
    ...

    Art> Is it me, or this a chilling argument agaisnt where things are
    Art> going.

I'm not sure what you're getting at.  Nobody said a decorator's
implementation had to be simple.  It can, after all, perform pretty
arbitrary transformations.

    Art> But when there is a lot less going on than meets the eye ...

Again, I'm confused.  Look at just the fib() definition:

    @martha.memoize
    def fib(n):
        assert n >= 0
        print n
        if n <= 1:
            return 1
        return n + fib(n-1)

The decorator says the function will be memoized.  That memoizing an
arbitrary function's values using a dict isn't entirely straightforward
shouldn't prevent people from being able to easily memoize functions whose
outputs only depend on their inputs.  By analogy, I use urllib.urlopen() all
the time without completely understanding all the ins and outs of what it
does.

Perhaps the decorator would be better named "idempotent"?

Or were you objecting to something else?

Skip


From heikowu at ceosg.de  Wed Aug 11 13:20:58 2004
From: heikowu at ceosg.de (Heiko Wundram)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 19:20:58 +0200
Subject: rsa implementation question
In-Reply-To: <5GkSc.124$O72.121@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>
References: <1092200894.4119a9beb1978@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
	<mailman.1483.1092208637.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<5GkSc.124$O72.121@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <200408111920.58037.heikowu@ceosg.de>

Am Mittwoch, 11. August 2004 10:21 schrieb Bryan Olson:
> I agree with about half of Heiko Wundram's response.

Well, with what don't you agree? ;)

Anyway, I've not read anywhere that for signing a message it is discredited to 
use RSA decrypt with private key, encrypt with public key.

Basically, what I always implemented is something like (pseudocode):

def pad_for_rsa_encrypt(data,algo,n):
	retv = [data]
	strlen = len(data)
	nlen = log2(n)/8
	while strlen < nlen-3:
		data.append(<randomchars>)
		nlen -= len(<randomchars>)
	data.append(chr(algo))
	data.append(struct.pack("!H",strlen))
	return "".join(data)

def unpad_after_rsa_decrypt(data,n):
	strlen = struct.unpack("!H",data[-2:])
	nlen = log2(n)/8
	if strlen > nlen-3:
		raise ValueError, "Invalid size of data in packet."
	return data[:strlen], ord(data[-3])

def sign(key,data):
	return key.decrypt(pad_for_rsa_encrypt(sha.new(data).digest(),0,key))
# 0 is for sha algorithm.

def verify(key,data,sign):
	netsgn, algo = unpad_after_rsa_decrypt(key.encrypt(sign),key)
	if algo <> 0:
		raise ValueError, "Invalid digest used in packet."
	datasgn = sha.new(data).digest()
	return datasgn == netsgn

Or something of the like... Anyway, what the deal about this algorithm is that 
the number of digits of the data used for encryption/decryption is not known 
in advance with high probability, only the last few digits might be known 
(length of plaintext encrypted and algorithm used), whereas if you use normal 
padding (with zeros), the problem domain is limited because only a certain 
number of positions of the plaintext (e.g. 160 bits when using a digest) 
actually contain data.

This does not make some public-key algorithms weaker (ElGamal), but RSA has to 
cope with the fact that it doesn't do inherent randomization (so for equal 
data to sign and equal key, you'll get equal signatures, which is bad!) 
That's why I would advise you to go use ElGamal, which is much better in this 
respect, and is patent-free too (well RSA is too, but anyway, the ElGamal 
family of public-key ciphers always was).

And, if you were using it to encrypt/decrypt a symmetric encryption key, you 
could also pad the algorithm used for encryption into the string, so that 
only the proper receiving end could get this last bit of info on the 
encryption method used (security by obscurity, but anyway).

So much for what I always did. I really don't know whether this is some form 
of secure way to go, but at least no cryptography book I read has ever 
discouraged the use of random padding while encrypting data which is much 
shorter than the "block size" of a public-key crypto algorithm (esp. for 
RSA).

Heiko.


From adurdin at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 02:28:18 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:28:18 +1000
Subject: J2 paper 0.2.1
In-Reply-To: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E36@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E36@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a04082223283d4c176e@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 22:19:31 -0700, Robert Brewer <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote:
> The first draft of the J2 proposal is ready. You can read it here:
> http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html

A very nice job. Regarding the suggestion for "using" in Argument III:

"""
    * It "reads correctly" in every use case.
"""

Can you include an example with the "using" keyword, so that the
reader doesn't have to construct one himself to see how this might be
so?

e.g.

using:
    memoize
    classmethod
    synchronize
    funcattrs(author="Guido Van Rossum")
def foo(cls, *args):
    pass


From fakeaddress at nowhere.org  Sat Aug  7 02:50:05 2004
From: fakeaddress at nowhere.org (Bryan Olson)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 06:50:05 GMT
Subject: Timing Difference: insert vs. append & reverse
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1276.1091802890.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <35b736b9.0408020330.53b24ed3@posting.google.com>	<Xns953983065EEC6duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>	<1a517b5.0408031027.60554dfb@posting.google.com>	<Xns953B4F5373D3Bduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>	<1a517b5.0408041305.3927a6c8@posting.google.com>	<mailman.1159.1091655528.5135.python-list@python.org>	<p7hQc.6692$AY5.4804@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>	<mailman.1181.1091683751.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cpHQc.960$ry5.149@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>
	<mailman.1276.1091802890.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <xY_Qc.1082$QJ3.288@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>

Tim Peters wrote:

 > I'm one of the handful of people who might actually "do
 > something" about this kind of issue, and I was telling you that I
 > won't.  Your chances of seeing what you suggest are highly correlated
 > with finding someone who will "do something" <wink>.  I don't know
 > whether Raymond Hettinger is interested in pursuing this further, but
 > if he isn't either (that's my guess), then the only realistic chance
 > is if you do the work yourself.

Looking at the source, I'm worried.  Append and pop[-1] are not
really amortized O(1); at best they're commonly-average O(1).
Alternating appends and pops at certain border values will call
realloc for every operation.  The pop-reallocs free the extra
memory; if the allocator uses that memory for other requests,
the following append will have to copy the entire list.


 > In the basic list type, yes, it's more valuable in Python to save the
 > 8 bytes.  The speed of "left end" insert/remove is insignificant for
 > most Python apps, and is quite fast anyway for small lists.  It's a
 > major concern for *some* Python apps, and the deque type serves those
 > better than fudging the list type could.

The leave-it-to-realloc method seems to be an effort to save one
word (either a pointer or a size) per list.  With two more
words, I think we could make operations on both ends amortized
O(1).  The only lists for which this would be a substantial
portion are empty lists. Currently, empty lists require four
words (type_pointer, refcount, size=0, item_pointer=NULL) plus
malloc's bookkeeping. Any non-empty list additionally allocates
space for at least 8 pointers, plus malloc's bookkeeping.


-- 
--Bryan


From saint_infidel at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 25 16:16:52 2004
From: saint_infidel at hotmail.com (infidel)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 13:16:52 -0700
Subject: Just a quick one
References: <cgi2qq$rvp$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <cgi3ev$g6k$1@online.de>
	<cgi5vc$m52$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <97841f5c.0408251216.5acb7524@posting.google.com>

"M. Clift" <noone at here.com> wrote in message news:<cgi5vc$m52$1 at news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> Hi Benjamin,
> 
> Sorry, another question. How do I remove the brackets form the list?
> Name_List.remove('(') doesn't work.

The brackets or parentheses are not part of the list or tuple, they
are part of the string representation of the list or tuple.

If you want to turn the list ('Bob', 'Mary') into the string 'Bob,
Mary', use:

', '.join(('Bob', 'Mary'))

-infi


From elainejackson7355 at home.com  Tue Aug 17 00:01:01 2004
From: elainejackson7355 at home.com (Elaine Jackson)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 04:01:01 GMT
Subject: music resources
References: <mailman.1769.1092710233.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1qfUc.128080$gE.84239@pd7tw3no>

Thanks for your suggestions. What I want to do with music is to learn it and
play with it. Even an auditory equivalent of "MS Paint" would probably keep me
busy for some time, since I'm essentially starting from zero.

"Eric Pederson" <whereU at now.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1769.1092710233.5135.python-list at python.org...
> Elaine Jackson wrote:

> > Is there such a thing as an executable language for music? If not, why
> > not? And
> > if yes, where can I find it? Naturally the ideal thing would be if
> > such a
> > language were implemented within python, but I would be willing to
> > learn a
> > lesser programming language if I had a reasonable assurance that it
> > had what I'm
> > looking for.


There is some interesting stuff out there:

Check out the Python sounds project:  http://pythonsound.sourceforge.net/

Also, there is AthenaCL which I believe is both written in Python and Python
scriptable, although I have not had time to play with it:
http://www.download.com/AthenaCL/3000-2170-10204823.html

I think there are also more routine libraries that just manipulate sound waves,
etc.

What do you want to do with music?  (talk about an interesting data set!)

Eric P.





Eric Pederson
http://www.songzilla.blogspot.com
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
domainNot="@something.com"
domainIs=domainNot.replace("s","z")
ePrefix="".join([chr(ord(x)+1) for x in "do"])
mailMeAt=ePrefix+domainIs
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::




From __peter__ at web.de  Fri Aug 20 04:28:32 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:28:32 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<7x3c2iw9ig.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <cg4cng$bo8$02$1@news.t-online.com>

Paul Rubin wrote:

> "Paul McGuire" <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> writes:
>> I would propose a multivote survey: each poster gets 3 votes among the
>> lettered choices on the Wiki page above.  You can use all 3 for a single
>> option, or split them across 2 or 3 options if you are open to more than
>> one.
> 
> 1. My favorite variant was not in the list.

I suggest that you add it.
 
> 2. Any of the choices will have far reaching consequences that aren't
>    yet thought out very well.  There is not yet enough experience
>    programming with the existing mechanisms (classmethods etc.) to
>    be sure what's really worthwhile.

The PyObjC and (some?) Zope people say they need "fancy" decorators badly.
Classmethods are comparatively straight-forward.
 
> 3. There's not all that much discussion on the wiki of how other
>    languages do this stuff.

I think Java and C# have been discussed on python-dev. Again you could share
your experience.
 
> 4. There's nowhere near consensus that any of the choices presented so
>    far are not plain horrible.
> 
> My conclusion: Python 2.4 should not have new decorator syntax.  Stay
> with the existing stuff, for now.

D'accord. The most promising way to achieve that is to collect arguments
against the pie that can convince Guido and find a contender that has at
least the same level of support in the community.
On a side note, I think it strange that aesthetics are ruled out. Certainly
neither the decorator suite nore the pies can be advertised as "executable
pseudocode".

> Discussion and exploration should continue and the question should be
> revisited for 2.5.  For 2.4, extend the current kludgy (decorators
> separated from the function) mechanism if needed to provide necessary
> functionality, but deprecate any new such feature as soon as it's
> introduced, with the explanation that it's exploratory.

Those who need decorators will adopt the included syntax even if it is not
their favourite. I guess that unless technical problems appear yours will
be an effective vote for the @decorator.

Peter




From porky_pig_jr at my-deja.com  Thu Aug 19 16:26:17 2004
From: porky_pig_jr at my-deja.com (Porky Pig Jr)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 13:26:17 -0700
Subject: IDLE under Cygwin - no toolbar menu. Any idea why?
Message-ID: <56cfb0e3.0408191226.43caa96b@posting.google.com>

A question for those using python under Cygwin. I've just installed
the latest distribution with python 2.3.4. One problem I have is when
I start IDLE, it doesn't show toolbar menu (either shell window or
edit window). Does anyone know why and if there is a workaround? TIA.

(I know I should probably ask Cygwin folks, but just want to check it
here first)


From robin at SPAMREMOVEjessikat.fsnet.co.uk  Sat Aug 21 04:50:10 2004
From: robin at SPAMREMOVEjessikat.fsnet.co.uk (Robin Becker)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 09:50:10 +0100
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <41270CC2.7000105@jessikat.fsnet.co.uk>

I vote B B B
-- 
Robin Becker


From zathras at thwackety.com  Sat Aug 28 08:00:31 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 13:00:31 +0100 (BST)
Subject: allowing braces around suites
In-Reply-To: <1rllg0cb3m.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408281226250.24914-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004, Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote:

> after all, code in _any_ language written by a professional
> will have strict indentation.

Not all code is written by professional programmers. Not all professionals
who write code are professional programmers - biologists, linguists,
physicists spring to mind. Those groups are not interested in programming
they are interested in solving problems. They do not care about syntax,
they care about solutions. They care about sharing solutions.

Do you share solutions using pseudocode, or what you actually used? With
python you can do the latter, but it looks like the former. You can share
that with non-technical people - they might not understand the details,
but the lack of extraneous syntax will make this simpler, and they
appreciate being treated as equals.

For me, the lack of extraneous syntax and expecting the compiler to work
harder to leave code cleaner is one of the things that makes python
python. This actually means though that any tool that works with the
syntax needs to work a bit harder, but for me, the benefits are huge.

Contrast this approach with Perl's approach. (I really like perl as well
BTW) In perl there is explicit annotation of almost everything as to what
it means. You explicitly indicated scalars, arrays and hashes. If you need
to derefence an object the most reliable way is to use very explicit
syntax hooks. Similarly the braces are much more explicit than in a
language like C they aren't optional for block statements. If you want
_consistent_ semantics for all function calls, you have to use an & symbol
and so on.

This comes at cost however. The cost is that the large body of code
written by non-professionals can be difficult to read, merge and
encourages bad coding styles. (I've seen some very bad perl code from
people who claim to be professionals as well :-( )

I've yet to see this to the same extent with python. It very naturally
discourages bad coding styles whilst encouraging clean looking code -
including from new users. For me, this is part of what makes python
unique, and a large part of that in my eyes stems from making the work of
tools harder. Optional braces, AND keeping fixed indentation is simply
adding a crutch for poor tools.

The solution isn't to change the language in my eyes, the solution is to
produce better tools. After all, the following is legal syntax in python
if you really want close markers:

end = None
for ch in "hello":
   if ch == "l":
      print "Rhubarb"
   end
   print ch,
end

Personally I think that's like macro abuse in C where I've seen people try
to make C look like pascal, but it is valid - and it allows you to add a
crutch for your tools without changing the language or affecting
readability significantly.

All in my opinion of course. As has been said though - please do write the
PEP, I agree with the sentiment that this would be a good way of rejecting
it permenently ;-)

Best Regards,


Michael.



From dfan at harmonixmusic.com  Sat Aug 21 12:02:46 2004
From: dfan at harmonixmusic.com (Dan Schmidt)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 12:02:46 -0400
Subject: Fate of lambda, Functional Programming in Python...
References: <412636D1.6070808@noaa.gov>
	<mailman.2073.1093028474.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<41265E67.A08409A6@juno.com>
Message-ID: <u7jrsiimx.fsf@turangalila.harmonixmusic.com>

Jeff Sandys <sandysj at juno.com> writes:

| How about this use of lambda?
| (from another post 'RE: How to sort this kind of list easily?' today)
| 
| |  Or if you want to sort only on your Id, use a lambda:
| |  l.sort(lambda x,y: cmp(x[0],y[0]))

In 2.4, you actually don't need a lambda:

   l.sort( key = operator.itemgetter( 0 ) )

but I too would be very sad to see anonymous functions go away,
although I find the current syntax pretty ugly.

Dan

-- 
http://www.dfan.org


From fredrik at pythonware.com  Wed Aug 11 14:08:15 2004
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 20:08:15 +0200
Subject: PEP-0318
References: <41122FC2.1080608@interlink.com.au><mailman.1251.1091764482.5135.python-list@python.org><4114152f@nntp.zianet.com>
	<aIOdnRybBucMsIncRVn-gA@comcast.com><4116bc20$1@nntp.zianet.com><mailman.1369.1092015284.5135.python-list@python.org><c8neh0t41km1h79ufo4vkrhh78dt27vlok@4ax.com><6NCdncg4ssq28orcRVn-uQ@powergate.ca><fkteh0pvalomnrm7tk8ial4sgjaj9jjkj8@4ax.com>
	<411a5cee$1@nntp.zianet.com>
Message-ID: <cfdn78$86u$1@sea.gmane.org>

Mark Bottjer wrote:

> But it *isn't* part of the core language. I think that's the whole point. @decorator does 
> something that no other statement in Python does

calling a function with an argument?  that's a pretty common
operation, if you're asking me

</F> 





From egbert.list at hccnet.nl  Tue Aug 10 11:37:30 2004
From: egbert.list at hccnet.nl (Egbert Bouwman)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:37:30 +0200
Subject: OO menu management
Message-ID: <20040810153730.GA2787@mirk.lan>

I have difficulties in organizing my menus, especially in linking
them to the underlying application logic.

I try to follow the OO rules:
the gui classes, in their own module gui.py, do the gui work,
in my case with pygtk, 
and they know nothing about the application logic in app.py.

So a button in the gui starts a callback that in realty is a method
in app.py, and the name of that callback is given to the gui 
via an argument. That works well for a single button.

With a menu system it is different, because there are so many buttons.

I still have for each menu button:
- a callback-name variable in the gui class
- a real callback method in the application class
and now a dictionary that links those two.  
That dictionary is argument-passed to the gui.

Additionally in the gui itself I have a nested list with for each button:
- the name of the menu button (MenuItem) itself
- the name of the sub-menu it belongs to
- the tekst on the button
- the sub-menu it may open
- the name of its callback (
- the callback arguments

It is quite complex, with a lot of correspondences that may go wrong.
So I wonder if my approach is the right one.
Do I understand the OO approach well ?
Should I relax the OO guidelines ?
Is there something in python which may help, but which I have overlooked ?

egbert
-- 
Egbert Bouwman - Keizersgracht 197 II - 1016 DS  Amsterdam - 020 6257991
========================================================================


From jeff_news at lindholm.org  Mon Aug 23 14:01:17 2004
From: jeff_news at lindholm.org (Jeff Lindholm)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 18:01:17 GMT
Subject: line shift?  (baby steps 2)
References: <6daa8765.0408230412.6db365d6@posting.google.com>
	<2oueokFe36qgU2@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <NhqWc.5860$Y94.3343@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>

> As a hint not pertaining to your actual problem: Use a dictionary to
> store the values, like this:
>
> currencies = { "EUDK" : 7.47, "DKEU" : 0.13, (...) }
>
> Then you do not have to do if statements like this
>
> if currency_str == "DKEU":
>    result= amount_int* dkeu_currency
>    print amount_int, "Danish Crowns correspond to", result, "Euro."
>
> (...)
>
> You can directly use the input string as index into the dictionary:
>
> result = amount_int * currencies[currency_str]
> print (...)
>
I was bored waiting on a compile so I hacked this up. It adds the \n and the 
Please enter conversion type line and uses the previous poster's comment on 
the using a dictionary.
I added the conversion output text by makeing the value a list that is the 
conversion and the text to display for the answer (I made them shorter 
because I was lazy to type all the information). I also made the conversion 
from US to EU more in line with the EUUS because I used those for testing 
and the results were not coming out the same (course I am sure there is some 
slack in there somewhere for the bank taking its share of the proceeds :) )
Not sure if there is a slicker way to do the conversion/message - I am 
relatively new to Python as well, so my code still ends up looking like C++ 
lots of the time.

import string

currency = {"EUDK":(7.47,"? to DKK"),
            "DKEU":(0.13,"DKK to ?"),
            "USDK":(5.93, "$ to DKK"),
            "DKUS":(0.16, "DKK to $"),
            "EUUS":(1.19, "? to $"),
            "USEU":(0.84, "$ to ?")}

while(1):
    currency_choice= raw_input("\nPlease enter conversion type  or 'Exit': 
")
    currency_str= str(currency_choice).upper()

    if currency_str == "EXIT":
        break
    if currency.has_key(currency_str):
        amount_int= input("Please type the amount you wish to convert: ")
        result = amount_int * currency[currency_str][0]
        print currency[currency_str][1], " ", amount_int, " = ", result
    else:
        print("Sorry. At the moment we only support DKK, Euro and Dollars." 
+ "\n" \
        "Type DKEU if you want convert from DKK to ?," + "\n" \
        "EUDK if you want to convert from DKK to ?," + "\n" \
        "DKUS if you want to convert from DKK to $," + "\n" \
        "USDK if you want to convert from $ to DKK," + "\n"
        "EUUS if you want to convert from ? to $," + "\n"\
        "and USEU if you want to convert from $ to ?")






From noone at here.com  Thu Aug 19 21:42:25 2004
From: noone at here.com (M. Clift)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 02:42:25 +0100
Subject: Rita Sue and Bob too
Message-ID: <cg3ksb$bg5$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>

Hi All,

Can someone help. I promise I've looked how to do this but can't find a
way...

Ok, to find one name is easy

if 'Bob' in list:
    print "They were found"
else:
    print "They are not in list"

But, how to I find a sequence in a list of unknown size? i.e. this sequence
in list of other names and replace it with three others?

'Rita','Sue','Bob'

This is almost a nightly occurrence (my posting questions), but I am
learning : )




From drumheller at alum.mit.edu  Mon Aug 16 03:05:26 2004
From: drumheller at alum.mit.edu (Michael Drumheller)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 00:05:26 -0700
Subject: NumArray array-indexing
References: <a56f3aa5.0408120958.5e9db50d@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121433170.9323-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121444370.9594-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <a56f3aa5.0408152305.54d3ceee@posting.google.com>

Christopher T King <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote in message news:<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121444370.9594-100000 at ccc8.wpi.edu>...
> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Christopher T King wrote:
> 
> > On 12 Aug 2004, Michael Drumheller wrote:
> > 
> > > Basically, it seems to me that NumArray simply does not support
> > > the distinction between a column vector and a row vector.  That 
> > > is, if you have x=[1,2,3], then transpose(x) is a no-op.  True?
> > 
> > False.  You have to supply numarray with a two-dimensional array in order 
> > to perform a two-dimensional transpose:
> 
> Where by "False" I meant "The first sentence is false, but the second 
> sentence is true".  Column vectors and row vectors must be represented as 
> two-dimensional arrays; transpose() of a one-dimensional array is a no-op 
> since all transpose() does (by default) is reverse the order of the axes.

I understand that, but I think it just goes to support my contention that
NumArray does not support transposed vectors *from an array-indexing point
of view.*  Here is what I mean:

As you pointed out in your previous message, you can get "the transpose
of a row vector" if the "row vector" is actually a single-row matrix,
i.e.,

>>> transpose([[1, 2, 3]])
array([[1],
       [2],
       [3]])

However, whereas [1, 2, 3] passed as an index-array will get you the
second, third, and fourth rows of a rank-2 matrix, [[1,2,3]] will *not*
do that.  (It gets you some other weird thing that I can't remember.)
That is, a single-row matrix may be the same thing as a row vector
in a mathematical context, but it is not the same thing in an
array-indexing context.  Similarly, passing [[1],
                                             [2],
                                             [3]]
as an index array doesn't get you anything remotely like the second
third, and fourth columns.  So it seems to me that array indexing
can easily get you an arbitrary subset of rows, but not an arbitrary
subset of columns.  Would you agree?
By the way:  Thank you for your attention to my problem!
Mike


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 01:46:18 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:46:18 +1000
Subject: Object Reference?
In-Reply-To: <HQEQc.6327$rM6.4368@trndny03>
References: <HQEQc.6327$rM6.4368@trndny03>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408052246612b69d0@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 05:39:51 GMT, Chris S. <chrisks at nospamudel.edu> wrote:
> Naturally, I could just recursively parse all the data comparing every
> element to every previously listed object, but is there a less obtrusive
> method? Python figures out when to delete objects based on the remaining
> references to an object. Is there a way to access this information to
> automatically lookup these references? Any help is greatly appreciated.

Use the "id()" of the objects?


From paul at boddie.org.uk  Mon Aug 23 04:17:07 2004
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 01:17:07 -0700
Subject: My only complaint about Python
References: <mailman.2100.1093081354.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <5339b60d.0408230017.655081d9@posting.google.com>

"Ben Last" <ben at benlast.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.2100.1093081354.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> 
> What's needed (in my extremely humble opinion) is a way to build what I need
> to, using a compiler suite that I can go and get without having to spend any
> money.  Philosophy is fine, but I dislike having an FSF agenda pushed on me
> as much as I dislike a Redmond agenda.  I just want to get on with my job
> (or in this case, pursue my own interests).

Yes, I'm sure the FSF is right up there with Microsoft, considered
just as notorious for its anticompetitive business practices, and I'm
sure we've all found it really hard to buy PC systems without GNU
software pre-installed. When people talk about the FSF agenda being
pushed on them, you'd think they'd been asked to stare down Richard
Stallman in some kind of "reality TV" contest whilst
exotically-dressed kernel hackers scream for the humiliation of the
loser.

Perhaps you'd be equally enthusiastic for Python if it were made
available in binary form at the discretion of Guido and his closest
associates, but I'd imagine that by now in its history, if that had
been so, it would be as popular as the various neat-but-proprietary
languages of the early 1990s whose names only trigger the memories of
those who could remember them when seen on old and archived Web sites.

Paul


From srumbalski at copper.net  Mon Aug 23 23:27:18 2004
From: srumbalski at copper.net (Steven Rumbalski)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 23:27:18 -0400
Subject: newbie: confused with example in Learning Python 2nd Edition:
	can anyone give a hint
References: <56cfb0e3.0408231710.27d78703@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <412ab47c_5@newsfeed.slurp.net>

Porky Pig Jr wrote:

> Here is an example of Stack class which got me totally confused:
> 
>>>> class Stack:
> ...     def __init__(self, data):
> ...             self._data = list(data)
> ...             self.push = data.append
> ...             self.pop = data.pop

It should have confused you.  It was wrong.

>From the errata at
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/lpython2/errata/lpython2.confirmed:

{457}  class Stack: code;
self.push and self.pop should both reference self._data, not just data

So the corrected code should look like:
>>> class Stack:
 ...     def __init__(self, data):
 ...             self._data = list(data)
 ...             self.push = _data.append
 ...             self.pop = _data.pop

And now the class should act like you expect.  Before it was modifying the
list (data) it was passed in the constructor.  Now it modifies its own copy
(_data).

By the way, a brief note on errata.  IMO it is counter-productive to dwell
on errata (although a quick skim doesn't hurt).  Trying to notice each
error distracts from understanding.  Usually the brain glosses over the
error and reads what was intended rather than what was said.


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Sun Aug 22 10:36:37 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 14:36:37 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WE
	DONE?
References: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<t5idnRg0lMA7B7XcRVn-qA@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <Vb2Wc.8462$Jn5.6597@fe1.texas.rr.com>

"Doug Holton" <insert at spam.here> wrote in message
news:t5idnRg0lMA7B7XcRVn-qA at comcast.com...
> Paul McGuire wrote:
> > Total voters: 55
> > Of all of the votes cast, J2
> > received 48%, C1 received 18%.  No other option received more than 10%
of
> > any votes.
>
> I vote 3 times for C1.  So just my one vote raises C1 to 20%.  I think
> you need to do an online poll so you get more people than just those who
> have been discussing the decorator keyword here this past week.  I got
> over 250 votes for C1 just last week vs. the 22 who voted for J2 here.
> During this 2nd poll people were confused about whether they could vote
> for A1 or not, and some people said many of the options on the wiki page
> were not allowed anymore.
>
> Just make a poll with J2 vs. C1 and see what you find.
Doug -

Robert Brewer advised against ending this c.l.py poll prematurely (which I
thought *was* a form of "online poll"), and your posting reaffirms that
suggestion.

I've put you down for 3 votes for C1.  But by my spreadsheet, adding 3 votes
to C1 shifts the percentages to 46.7% for J2 and 19.2% for C1.  And if you
look at the consensus statistic, this doesn't significantly change the
number of people expressing some support for either (73.2% of voters cast at
least one vote for J2, 35.7% cast at least one for C1).

Fewer than 3% of the votes were cast for A1, so I don't think this had a
major effect on the overall distribution of the results.

One of the main purposes of multivoting is to do just what you propose - to
narrow a field of many choices down to just 2.  It looks like this poll is
very close to achieving that, and I really don't think this will change
significantly over the next few days.

One of the issues with a "one-person-one-vote" poll is that you don't get a
sense of a voter's willingness to be open to multiple alternatives.  When
you are all done, all you have is "X% for A and Y% for B" - short of
unanimity, I don't think this is much of a basis for consensus among an
anonymous group.  Even an 80/20 or 90/10 split just tells you that 10-20% of
the voters will be overridden by the majority.  (I get the feeling that
there are some out there who are distrustful of this whole process, and
short of a 100% return for one choice, will not concede that we have arrived
at consensus. ) What I like about multivoting is that it allows people to
express preferences, but also openness to alternatives.  And consequently, I
think the process is less divisive.  But just to show how compelling these
results are so far, imagine that *every* vote had been J2, J2, C1 or C1, C1,
J2  The absolute results would have been a 66%/33% split, and the consensus
vote would have been 50%/50%.  What we got so far is 47/19 (which is even
more lopsided than 66/33) and 73/35.

Mark Twain said there are 3 types of lies: lies, damned lies, and
statistics.  I'm not trying to confuse the issue, I *am* trying to convey
that I think there is more consensus here than a simple percentage would
imply.

-- Paul




From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 20:37:44 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:37:44 -0500
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2083.1093043563.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl>	<ZFoVc.360$MR2.1503@news1.mts.net>	<mailman.2058.1093016284.5135.python-list@python.org>	<5_uVc.411$MR2.2033@news1.mts.net>
	<mailman.2083.1093043563.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <NOwVc.447$MR2.2259@news1.mts.net>

> You might look at this, also from dictionary.reference.com:
> 
> quantum leap
> 
> A dramatic advance, especially in knowledge or method, as in 
> Establishing a central bank represents a quantum leap in this small 
> country's development. This term originated as quantum jump in the 
> mid-1900s in physics, where it denotes a sudden change from one energy 
> state to another within an atom. Within a decade it was transferred to 
> other advances, not necessarily sudden but very important ones.

You're aware of how big an atom is right?  And people don't typically 
suddenly change from one language to another.  They'll tend to change 
gradually if only because the people at work won't like an inflection 
point with regards to such matters.  It makes support hell.


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Sun Aug 29 10:28:36 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 07:28:36 -0700
Subject: [PIL] about the difference between pudata and putpixel
References: <pan.2004.08.29.10.54.40.204024@nospam.com>
Message-ID: <1093790243.944480@news.commspeed.net>


"Hillairet Julien" <jh at nospam.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.08.29.10.54.40.204024 at nospam.com...
> Hello,
>
> I don't understand how "putdata" from the PIL works :
>
> I've got a (N,N) matrix : "color" (an array from numarray lib.), where
> (N,N) is the size of a image.
>
> The next code, give to each pixel of the image the color (an integer
> 0~255) which is associate in the "color" matrix (an integer matrix,
> 0~255). It works well, but it's a bit slow:
>
> for i in range(N):
>     for j in range(N):
>         im.putpixel((i,j), color[i][j])
>
> Although, this code doesn't work:
>
> im.putdata(color)
>
> There is no error message, but the image's pixels stay black (0) ! (The
> color matrix is not an 0-matrix !)
>
>
> Is someone can explain me my misunderstanding of putdata ?
>
>
> Thanks a lot,
>
> Julien Hillairet

Check your picture mode.

import Image
import random

pyimg = Image.new('RGB',(10,10))
ll = []
for i in range(100):

ll.append((random.randint(1,255),random.randint(1,255),random.randint(1,255)
)) # a tuple of RGB values
pyimg.putdata(ll)
pyimg.show() # drag open the pill view window to see (its not large enough)


Tom




From fumanchu at amor.org  Tue Aug 24 15:09:13 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:09:13 -0700
Subject: profiler
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E53@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Brett C. wrote:
> As of Python 2.4 you  can also compile in support for C-level 
> profiling
> into the interpreter (--enable-profiling).  See the in-dev docs
> (http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/) for details.

Drool. Thanks for the news. Since the first Python optimization is often
to stop calling Python functions (and inline instead), this'll be a big
help. :)


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From pete at shinners.org  Thu Aug 26 00:41:46 2004
From: pete at shinners.org (Pete Shinners)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 21:41:46 -0700
Subject: Best GUI- Python for children - pygame and blender32
In-Reply-To: <f06d8508.0408250712.63360fc2@posting.google.com>
References: <f06d8508.0408250712.63360fc2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgjpj5$qq2$1@sea.gmane.org>

Andr? Roberge wrote:
> I am learning Python (which, as everyone know is the best language :-)
> so that I can write a tutorial to teach my kids about computer
> programming.  The motivation for them will be to use Python to create
> their own games using pygame and, eventually, blender3d.  From what I
> hear, their friends will be interested in that tutorial too.

You'll want to wrap all of pygame up in a nice kid-friendly wrapper. I'd 
start with things like defining functions that get called when certain 
events happen.

Learning programming you will not want them starting with the important 
parts of pygame, like handling event queues, managing dirty updates, and 
those details.

Good luck with your plans, I recommend the pygame mailing list and irc 
chat if you get stuck on details.



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 11:54:48 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:54:48 +1000
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E82@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E82@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408260854280f962f@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:35:15 -0700, Robert Brewer <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote:
> >       Can we insert conditional expressions in the decorator list ?
> 
> Not with the current patch; however, that option may be allowed in the future.

"In the future" means "post-2.4, when we have an idea of what people
are doing with it". Right now, there's not a whole lot of use cases
for more complex expressions in the decorator area, and there's more
potential for horror. Guido made this call on a gut feeling, not on
any technical grounds. His gut is usually good on this.

> The order of operation would have to be reversed,

I don't see why.

> so *IF* Guido votes yes, 
> then you need to bring this up again immediately.

God no. Please don't. Work with the syntax that's chosen, then we can
revisit this for 2.5.


From grante at visi.com  Tue Aug 24 10:44:27 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 14:44:27 GMT
Subject: Time-date as an integer
References: <mailman.2271.1093328889.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <412b544b$0$68775$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-24, Charles Hixson <charleshixsn at earthlink.net> wrote:
> This is a concept, not a finished program, and an extract from a class 
> at that...so forgive any illegalities, but:
> import    datetime;
>   def    calcNodeId(self):
>     t    =    datetime.utcnow()
>     val    =    t.year *    133920000000    +          #    12 months
>                     t.month    *    11160000000    +    #    31 days
>                     t.hour    *    3600000000    +         #    60 minutes
>                     t.minute    *    60000000    +         #    60 seconds
>                     t.second    *    1000000    +    t.microsecond
>     if    val <=    self._dTime:
>       val    =    self._dTime + 1
>     self._dTime    =    val
>     return    val
>
> This is the best that I've been able to come up with in getting a 
> date-time as an integer.  It feels like one of the time or date 
> libraries should have a better solution, but if so, I haven't found it.  
> Can anyone suggest a better approach?

Don't forget about months with lengths other than 31.

Don't forget about leap years.

Don't forget that 2000 was a leap year but 1900 and 2100 aren't.

Don't forget about leap-seconds.

Don't forget about calendar discontinuities (which occurred at
different places in different locales).

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  .. he dominates the
                                  at               DECADENT SUBWAY SCENE.
                               visi.com            


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Thu Aug  5 15:51:26 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 15:51:26 -0400
Subject: Confused about pep 318
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com><mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org><d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com><Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu><mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org><Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051249050.10473-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu><mailman.1210.1091725930.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<10h4sm63o4dnd5a@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <ceu340$of$1@sea.gmane.org>

> The issue is not about rights to commit code, the issues are whether
>
> a) the question was ever publicly discussed at all and

Deorators have been discussed on PyDev at least since Jan 03.  The @ syntax
was introduced there in June04 with AB's post starting this thread:
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/thread.html#45516

> b) whether any consensus was reached.

My impression as a mostly lurker who sees no immediate personal use for
decos is that there was a partial consensus on the desirability of
something, but not on the syntax.  The 'tie-breaking' procedure is Guido
decides, and so, with 2.4 looming, he did, at least as an experiment.

> > Yes, it would have been nice if PEP-0318 was updated in advance of
this.
>
> Not nice.  Essential.  It is fundamentally unfair to pretend to have
> discussed a proposal publicly that has always been grossly misrepresented
in
> the one place one would naturally look to find information about it.

Perhaps in this case the PSF should have paid someone to keep it updated
better.  The problem I see is that most strong advocates of some deco
syntax also had a favorite syntax and were not candidates writing an
even-handed treatment of options.

Terry J. Reedy






From luismg at gmx.net  Mon Aug  9 13:35:45 2004
From: luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 10:35:45 -0700
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <278de0e.0408090935.6d758a5d@posting.google.com>

Two options:
1) Boa Constructor: is the closest you can find to VB or Delphi. It's
free and based on wxPython.
2) PythonCard: this is the asiest to learn and use by far. However,
there are some widgets that are not implemented (no datagrid, for
example).

There is at least one commercial product, BlackAdder, but it didn't
impress me at all (it's trial version is a little bit annoying, since
it doesn't let you save your work and it seems to close every few
minutes, so you never get anything done...).

As for the two mentioned above, I can say that I love PythonCard. It's
like a very intuitive and simple (very simple) VB, but as I said, it
is not very complete at this moment.
I tried Boa Constructor a couple of times, and it seemed to me a
little bit difficult to understand how it works, but I didn't try hard
enough..


From bockman at virgilio.it  Wed Aug 25 13:35:37 2004
From: bockman at virgilio.it (Francesco Bochicchio)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:35:37 GMT
Subject: Call for signatories for J2 - In Favor
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.25.17.35.34.310001@virgilio.it>

Assuming that simple python users qualify, you can add   my name in favor
of your proposal.

If people are using this thread for signing themselves, maybe
it would be better to create subthreads for pro/against/indifferent,
just to make counting more simple.

Ciao
---------------------------------
Francesco Bochicchio



From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Mon Aug  2 13:18:14 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 13:18:14 -0400
Subject: __coerce__ vs. new-style classes
References: <HBF.20040802t150@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <10gstrc1n27m8e8@news.supernews.com>


"Hallvard B Furuseth" <h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no> wrote in message
news:HBF.20040802t150 at bombur.uio.no...
> Why do new-style classes disable __coerce__()?
> It seems cumbersome to have to write a whole set of methods (e.g.
> __add__, __radd__, etc.) to get the same effect.  Is there some way to
> automatically generate those methods, or are we simply not supposed to
> do coercion for some reason?

I'm mildly confused by your example. __coerce__()
converts the arguements to a common type, and then
presumably requests that type to do the operation. That
type might not be one of the two original types!

It's not the same thing as the __op__, __rop__
pair. That simply allows the right object to do the
operation if the left object can't. (Also see 3.3.8
of the language reference for an exception to that
rule.)

The notion of type coercion makes a great deal of sense
in languages such as C, where you have 8 integer types
and 3 float types, but abstracting it out as a separate
operation makes very little sense in Python, where you
have 3 numeric types (int, long and float) and two string
types (normal and unicode). The overhead of doing
coercion as a separate operation simply doesn't make
a lot of sense.

At least, that's the way I understand it. Section 3.3.8
(Coercion Rules) of the 2.3 Language Reference gives
the official reasons for moving away from doing coercion
as part of operations. It simply got to complex to
document properly.

I suppose if you have a use case for __coerce__ in a
real world cluster of non-numeric types, you could
get Guido to reconsider.

John Roth
>
> -- 
> Hallvard




From insert at spam.here  Tue Aug 10 16:26:23 2004
From: insert at spam.here (Doug Holton)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:26:23 -0500
Subject: Decorator "platform"
In-Reply-To: <2nsoofF49frcU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <2nsoofF49frcU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <tuCdncnG2vXrsoTcRVn-uQ@comcast.com>

Reinhold Birkenfeld wrote:
> it would be a big advantage to
> everyone following to have the different uses of decorators collected,
> to serve as a starting point or a repository of what's possible.
> 
> What I have in mind is a sort of "decorator library" where everyone who
> has written a useful function of that kind can share it with others,
> instead of only posting it here. As I don't know whether there will be a
> "decorators" module in the stdlib, this would serve as a replacement
> until decorators are a final language feature.
> 
> How would one realise such a project?

Maybe you could create a PythonDecoratorLibrary page at the Python wiki: 
http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecoratorLibrary
Click the UserPreferences link on the top right to register for an 
account to be able to edit pages there.  And surround your python syntax 
with {{{ }}} so the formatting stays the same.  Example:

{{{
#!python

@classmethod
def foo (arg1, arg2):
     ....
}}}


From jesso1607 at rogers.com  Thu Aug 19 10:37:53 2004
From: jesso1607 at rogers.com (JASON JESSO)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:37:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: newbie
Message-ID: <20040819143753.63873.qmail@web88006.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I'm trying to add a mode to a mkdir program a got off
the python cookbook.

The error I get is:
./mkdir.py jason 0777
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "./mkdir.py", line 31, in ?
    _mkdir( sys.argv[1], sys.argv[2] )
  File "./mkdir.py", line 25, in _mkdir
    os.mkdir( newdir, mode )
TypeError: an integer is required

When I convert the mode from a string to an octal with
oct(int(sys.argv[2])) the permissions are all screwed
up.

Any help?

#!/usr/bin/env python

import sys, os

def _mkdir( newdir, mode ):
    """works the way a good mkdir should :)
        - already exists, silently complete
        - regular file in the way, raise an exception
        - parent directory(ies) does not exist, make
them as well
    """
    if os.path.isdir( newdir ):
        pass
    elif os.path.isfile( newdir ):
        raise OSError("a file with the same name as
the desired " \
                      "dir, '%s', already exists." %
newdir)
    else:
        head, tail = os.path.split( newdir )
        if head and not os.path.isdir( head ):
            _mkdir( head, mode )

        if tail:
            if mode is None:
                 os.mkdir( newdir )
            else:
                 os.mkdir( newdir, mode )

if __name__ == '__main__' :
    if len(sys.argv) < 3:
       _mkdir( sys.argv[1], None )
    else:
       _mkdir( sys.argv[1], sys.argv[2] )



From duncan.booth at invalid.invalid  Wed Aug  4 03:31:33 2004
From: duncan.booth at invalid.invalid (Duncan Booth)
Date: 4 Aug 2004 07:31:33 GMT
Subject: Timing Difference: insert vs. append & reverse
References: <35b736b9.0408020330.53b24ed3@posting.google.com>
	<Xns953983065EEC6duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
	<1a517b5.0408031027.60554dfb@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Xns953B4F5373D3Bduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>

bryanjugglercryptographer at yahoo.com (Bryan Olson) wrote in
news:1a517b5.0408031027.60554dfb at posting.google.com: 

>> If you expected insert to be faster, perhaps you thought that Python
>> used a linked-list implementation. It doesn't do this, because in
>> practice (for most applications) a [array] based implementation gives
>> better performance. 
> 
> True, but an array implementation can easily support amortized 
> constant-time insert/delete at *either* end (without breaking 
> constant-time indexing).  The same trick of keeping extra space 
> at the tail end can work at the head; it requires keeping one 
> additional offset to show where the occupied cells start.
> 

If the OP had said he expected insert and append to be the same speed I 
might buy that, but he expected insert to be faster than append.


From alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 18 17:14:43 2004
From: alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 14:14:43 -0700
Subject: what wrong with this program?
References: <8f17f4bc.0408171632.787eb6f8@posting.google.com>
	<cfucf3$est$1@news1.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <8f17f4bc.0408181314.7626b69b@posting.google.com>

Robert Kern <rkern at ucsd.edu> wrote in message news:<cfucf3$est$1 at news1.ucsd.edu>...
> Ali wrote:
> 
> > The following program is supposed to display a dropdown menu, however,
> > it only shows the File and Help things.
> > 
> > from Tkinter import *
> > 
> > root = Tk()
> > 
> > #create menu
> > m = Menu(root)
> > root.config(menu=m)
> > 
> > filemenu = Menu(m)
> > m.add_cascade(label="File", menu="filemenu")
> 
> The menu= argument needs to be the object itself, not a string.
> 
> See, e.g.
> 
> http://www.pythonware.com/library/tkinter/introduction/x5819-patterns.htm

ok I will try it out. Thanks for your help


From franbarlow at mail.com  Thu Aug 12 16:16:01 2004
From: franbarlow at mail.com (Fran)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 13:16:01 -0700
Subject: Help understanding Scheme's syntax, procedures and calls
References: <95f168b0.0408120120.31433dc7@posting.google.com>
	<411b577a$0$20523$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk>
Message-ID: <95f168b0.0408121216.63efc297@posting.google.com>

Peter Hickman <peter at semantico.com> wrote in message news:<411b577a$0$20523$afc38c87 at news.easynet.co.uk>...
> Unfortunately it looks more like 'broken scheme'.
> 
> Fran wrote:
> > (define (this n)
> > 	(if (=n 0)
> > 	         0
> > 	          (= n (this (- n 1)))))
> 
> That looks fine, however:
> 
> > (define (f1 a b)
> > 	(if >b a)
> > 	       0
> > 	       (+ b (f1 a (+ b 1)))))
> 
> Has 6 (s and 7 )s. I expect that the seconds line should read
> 	(if (> b a)
> 
> > (define (that n)
> > (f1 n1)
> 
> Again there is an imbalance in the ( and ), I think the second line should read 
> (f1 n 1)), note the space between then 'n' and the '1'.
> 
> Is this someone's homework by any chance?

Thanks for the help. It's not homework but from an old exam paper, but
the girl's English isn't absolutely fluent and I'm looking for a
simple way to explain the expressions and functions.

FRAN


From npat at efault.net  Tue Aug 17 03:07:38 2004
From: npat at efault.net (Nick Patavalis)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 07:07:38 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<7xk6vyczck.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <slrnci3blq.4kh.npat@gray.efault.net>

On 2004-08-17, Paul Rubin <> wrote:
>
> Compilers for languages like Lisp and Smaltalk have dealt with this
> for decades.  They can either generate code that switches on the type
> tags, or have dispatch tables in the objects that point to code for
> operations like "+", or take advice or declarations from the
> programmer about the arg types, among other possibilities.  Any of
> these approaches generates code that runs much faster than
> interpreted code.
>

Yes, I know. Something like this was what I was thinking about. I
would really love to see this technology brought to Python, or at
least a discussion as to what additions would be required in the
*language* in order for similar technologies to be easily applicable
to future Pythonic environments.

/npat


From andy47 at halfcooked.com  Thu Aug  5 15:29:40 2004
From: andy47 at halfcooked.com (Andy Todd)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 20:29:40 +0100
Subject: MySQLdb select
In-Reply-To: <cetv3m$ruu$1@newshispeed.ch>
References: <lGIOc.4961$AY5.4762@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com><ceg5ca$ftn$1@newshispeed.ch>	<mailman.1008.1091284523.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cetv3m$ruu$1@newshispeed.ch>
Message-ID: <ceu1r7$tc9$1@sea.gmane.org>

F. GEIGER wrote:
> "Gerhard H?ring" <gh at ghaering.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:mailman.1008.1091284523.5135.python-list at python.org...
> 
> 
> 
>>That's particularly BAD STYLE. It's best to keep to letting the DB-API
>>do the proper quoting for all parameters.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, yes.
> 
> So I tried this:
> 
> 
>>>>import MySQLdb as ms
>>>>con = ms.connect(db="isa",user="root")
>>>>cur = con.cursor()
>>>>cur.execute("select id from %s limit 10;", ("tagevents",))
> 
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
>   File "C:\PROGRA~1\Python23\lib\site-packages\MySQLdb\cursors.py", line 95,
> in execute
>     return self._execute(query, args)
>   File "C:\PROGRA~1\Python23\lib\site-packages\MySQLdb\cursors.py", line
> 114, in _execute
>     self.errorhandler(self, exc, value)
>   File "C:\PROGRA~1\Python23\lib\site-packages\MySQLdb\connections.py", line
> 33, in defaulterrorhandler
>     raise errorclass, errorvalue
> _mysql_exceptions.ProgrammingError: (1064, "You have an error in your SQL
> syntax.  Check the manual that corresponds to
> your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near ''tagevents'
> limit 10' at line 1")
> 
> 
> Hmm, despite the fact, that it is bad style, I tried:
> 
> 
>>>>cur.execute("select id from %s limit 10;" % "tagevents")
> 
> 10L
> 
> 
> and succeeded.
> 
> Looks like MySQL doesn't like the quoting, MySQLdb seems to perform.
> 
> Okay, as you shouted to me "BAD STYLE" I presume, it had to work, if I only
> did it right. So, what am I doing wrong? Or did I misconfig MySQL? Is MySQL
> 4.0 not yet supported?
> 
> My environment:
> 
> Win XP
> 
> Python 2.3.4 (#53, May 25 2004, 21:17:02) [MSC v.1200 32 bit (Intel)] on
> win32
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
> 
> Welcome to the MySQL monitor.  Commands end with ; or \g.
> Your MySQL connection id is 7 to server version: 4.0.20a-nt
> 
>  MySQLdb 1.0.0
> 
> 
> Kind regards
> Franz GEIGER
> 
[snip]

That's because MySQLdb will take care of converting the *parameters* in 
a SQL statement. These are (almost) always in the WHERE clause.

What you are trying to do is generate the SQL statement dynamically - 
which you have to do yourself using string formatting as you have found 
out.

It's a subtle but very important distinction.

Processing a SQL statement is usually done in two parts; parsing and 
binding. Parsing is where the database engine figures out *where* to get 
the information requested in the statement (e.g. which files the rows 
from the tables are physically stored in), binding is when the parameter 
values you supply are used to figure out *what* to return.

Regards,
Andy
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 From the desk of Andrew J Todd esq - http://www.halfcooked.com/



From mwh at python.net  Mon Aug 23 11:13:39 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:13:39 GMT
Subject: Parsing Python code with a Python Program
References: <U0aWc.46940$fz2.5801@edtnps89>
Message-ID: <m33c2dkhuk.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

pgw <a6c21487 at telus.net> writes:

> Hello,
> 
> I would like to pass strings to a Python
> application and have them executed as though
> they were lines of code.
> 
> Is 'exec()' the function that I am looking for
> and/or is there an example of this somewhere?

Well, it's a statement, not a function, but yes, that's what you're
looking for.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Well, you pretty much need Microsoft stuff to get misbehaviours
  bad enough to actually tear the time-space continuum.  Luckily 
  for you, MS Internet Explorer is available for Solaris.
                              -- Calle Dybedahl, alt.sysadmin.recovery


From asif at go-away-spammer.com  Wed Aug 25 11:29:04 2004
From: asif at go-away-spammer.com (Player)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:29:04 +0100
Subject: A little curious about something..
Message-ID: <cgib84$9mt$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>

Hell all once again :)

 I just installed Python after giving Activestates distribution of python a
try for a few days, and I have come across something that strikes me as a
little weird, to my beginners eye anyways.

In Activestates distribution of python, Idle or Pythonwin whatever their
version of Idle is, loaded fast and smoothly, and if I click-held the idle
GUI and moved the GUI window to reposition it somewhere else of the screen,
it moved fluidly and fast.

However with the Idle version in python, the GUI and python it's self loads
allot slower, and if I do the same click-hold to reposition the idle GUI
window, it chugs and stutters across the screen as I move it, rather slowly
and no were near as smoothly and fluidly as the Activestates version of the
Idle GUI window.

Why is this? is it something to do with the widget sets used??

M.B

PS: It's deffinately not resources lacking on my pc either :0 My machine is
a mosnter :)



-- 
*************
The Imagination may be compared to Adam's dream-
he awoke and found it truth.
John Keats.
*************




From eric_brunel at despammed.com  Fri Aug 20 08:06:17 2004
From: eric_brunel at despammed.com (Eric Brunel)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:06:17 +0200
Subject: Regular expression guaranteed to fail
References: <yyrjacwqdrlk.fsf@pc156.maths.bris.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <cg4p0p$6v7$1@news-reader1.wanadoo.fr>

Des Small wrote:
> I want to use sets and regular expressions to implement some
> linguistic ideas.  Representing sounds by symbols, and properties
> (coronal or velar articulation; voicedness) by sets of symbols with
> those properties, it is natural to then map these sets, and
> intersections of them, to regular expressions to apply to strings.
> 
> The question is, what regular expression should correspond to the
> empty set?  I've provisionally gone with "(?!.*)", i.e., the negation
> of a look-ahead which matches anything.  Is there an established idiom
> for this, and is that it?  And if there isn't, does this seem
> reasonable?

I also looked for a never-matching re just a few days ago and ended up with 
"^(?!$)$". It's certainly not more "standard" than yours, but I find it a wee 
tad more readable (for a regular expression, I mean...): it's quite clear that 
it requests a string start not followed by a string end and followed by a string 
end, which is guaranteed to never happen. Yours is a bit harder to explain. Mine 
may also be more efficient for very long strings, but I can be wrong here.

See what other people think...
-- 
- Eric Brunel <eric (underscore) brunel (at) despammed (dot) com> -
PragmaDev : Real Time Software Development Tools - http://www.pragmadev.com



From nid_oizo at yahoo.com_removethe_  Fri Aug 20 08:07:59 2004
From: nid_oizo at yahoo.com_removethe_ (Nicolas Fleury)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:07:59 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2014.1092990953.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <wRhVc.23879$Mt5.1140091@wagner.videotron.net>
	<mailman.2014.1092990953.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <nPlVc.23904$Mt5.1223926@wagner.videotron.net>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
>>- Not Pythonic.  It's a line without a block (like try/finally) that
>>affects a following line of code.  It breaks interactive shells.
> 
> I've seen this mentioned a couple of times, but as far as I can see, 
> it's really not true:

I just copied from Wiki honestly.

> This form (decorators inside the block) has been pretty convincingly
> ruled out by Guido. I think the "last man standing" is the decorator-before-def
> form, I really doubt you're going to convince people that  the form inside the
> function is workable.

I sadly discovered after my post it has been ruled out.  I agree the 
"last man standing" is the decorator-before-def form.  In fact, we 
should make a thread about only this proposal.

Regards,
Nicolas


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Fri Aug  6 10:11:16 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:11:16 -0400
Subject: [Newby question] List comprehension
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.06.13.22.50.75041@xs4all.nl>
References: <pan.2004.08.06.13.22.50.75041@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061003450.31298-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Eelco Hoekema wrote:

> [(root, filter(song, files)) for (root, dir, files) in
> os.walk(os.path.abspath('.')) if filter(song, files)]
> 
> Now, this will work. However, it seems kind of silly to call the filter
> twice. Is there a way to keep this in one list comprehension, but with
> just filtering once?

You may do best to split this into two LCs:

 temp = [(root, filter(song,files)) for (root, dir, files) in
         os.walk(os.path.abspath('.'))]
 temp = [(root, songs) for (root, songs) in temp if songs]

Or if you prefer, replace the latter with:
 temp = filter(temp, lambda x: x[1])

Or even, in 2.4:
 temp = filter(temp, itemgetter(1))

In 2.4, you will also be able to replace the first LC with a generator 
expression, saving a bit of both memory and processor time (the change 
would consist of replacing the brackets with parentheses).

Hope this helps.



From support at hotini.com  Sun Aug 29 01:48:03 2004
From: support at hotini.com (Hotini.Com)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 22:48:03 -0700
Subject: We got your message
Message-ID: <E1C1IXr-0001If-3x@host39n.ipowerweb.com>

Hello and thank you for your message.
We'll try to get back to you as soon as we can.

---------------------------------------
 www.Hotini.Com - The Hotini.Com Staff
---------------------------------------


From peter at engcorp.com  Wed Aug 18 11:55:58 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:55:58 -0400
Subject: How big can a Python program be?
In-Reply-To: <903b3fba.0408180655.6a23aede@posting.google.com>
References: <903b3fba.0408170333.49ce3944@posting.google.com>
	<DZKdnWOMArY6ZrzcRVn-rw@powergate.ca>
	<903b3fba.0408180655.6a23aede@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <EpadnTIcW9eN4b7cRVn-pw@powergate.ca>

vronskij at post.sk wrote:

>>What are you actually asking?  What technical limitations,
>>such as maximum line count per module, Python might have?
> 
> Well this is maybe difficult to define. Programs reach some limit and
> become unmanagable. This is one reason why we have OOP, UML etc.

Yes, that's true.

In this respect at least Python is fairly widely considered to
have a leg up on much of the competition.  One of the biggest
reasons is that it makes the code much more maintainable
(because of greater readability for one thing) than the same
amount of code in many other languages would be.

>>And more importantly than anything: why do you want to know
>>such things?  
> 
> Simple. Can you make an ERP in Python? Or is Python limited to little
> nice scripts or small programs with nice GUI?
> We are thinking to start a huge project, which could be hundreds of
> thousands of lines huge. I would finally know the answer, but it is
> probably better to ask first...

Ah, excellent... yes!  No problems.  In fact, I'm near certain there
was someone around here one or two years ago talking about making
a large ERP system in Python.  Don't know who that was, or whether
they might have shipped it yet...

At my last place of employ, we used Python to develop a system
that had something like 60,000 lines of code that we wrote, and
which built on Zope (and, later, Twisted), which had I believe
over 100,000 lines of code.  And of course a line of Python code
corresponds to quite a few lines of C code (one group's analysis
says it's a 10:1 ratio: http://www.pythonology.com/success&story=wingide).

Here are some other references for you:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2004-August/233130.html

http://www.pythonology.com/success

http://www.mindview.net/WebLog/log-0036  (Bruce Eckel)

This newsgroup's archives:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=large+projects+group%3Acomp.lang.python.*

-Peter


From jburns131 at adelphia.net  Tue Aug 10 23:59:26 2004
From: jburns131 at adelphia.net (Jesse B.)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 20:59:26 -0700
Subject: IDLE vs Command Line
References: <8PidncxTb4muxITcRVn-oQ@adelphia.com>
	<cfbmil$581$2@newsreader.mailgate.org>
Message-ID: <uYidnec7P5b-8oTcRVn-oQ@adelphia.com>



> Jesse B. wrote:
> > I like to work with xemacs, so I've been coding modules with xemacs and
> > running them using the dos prompt (using windows port of xemacs). Some
> > scripts that work fine with IDLE don't work at the dos prompt. For
example:
> >
> > import random
> >
> > for i in range(10):
> >     x = random.random()
> >     print x
> >
> > This simple script doesn't work if  I use the command prompt, with this
> > syntax: python random.py
> >
> > I am just wondering why that is.
>
> Because you have given the script the same name as the module you're
> importing, so the script tries to import itself?

That makes sense.




From donn at drizzle.com  Tue Aug 17 02:55:53 2004
From: donn at drizzle.com (Donn Cave)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 06:55:53 -0000
Subject: music resources
References: None <CObUc.124363$J06.99175@pd7tw2no>
Message-ID: <1092725752.70670@yasure>

Quoth "Elaine Jackson" <elainejackson7355 at home.com>:
| Is there such a thing as an executable language for music? If not, why not? An
| if yes, where can I find it? Naturally the ideal thing would be if such a
| language were implemented within python, but I would be willing to learn a
| lesser programming language if I had a reasonable assurance that it had what I
| looking for. I have, of course, googled for a solution, and I may have even
| found it, but if so I didn't recognize it as such. Any pointers will be mucho
| appreciado.

There's Haskore, which you could probably find via the main Haskell site,
http://www.haskell.org   Don't know if it's what you're looking for, but
though it isn't Python, don't worry that Haskell might be a lesser
programming language.

Here's an example from early in the tutorial:
   tune1 :: Music

   tune1 = let v = Volume 150
       in  c 8 hn [v] :+: e 8 hn [v] :+: g 8 hn [v] :+:
           c 9 hn [v] :+: a 8 hn [v] :+: c 9 qn [v] :+:
           a 8 qn [v] :+: g 8 dhn [v]:+: qnr

I haven't ever tried to use Haskore, but I assume that in "c 8 hn [v]",
"c 8" is the pitch, "hn" is "half note", and [v] is the first and only
volume for the note.  ':+:' is some function that binds these notes
together in a tune.  There is quite a bit of support for computer
generation of tones, too.

	Donn Cave, donn at drizzle.com


From ellisjb at my-deja.com  Sat Aug 21 22:17:31 2004
From: ellisjb at my-deja.com (ellisjb at my-deja.com)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 19:17:31 -0700
Subject: Getting benifits of database transactions in an OO way?
Message-ID: <cg8vnr$95k@odah37.prod.google.com>

Leif K-Brooks wrote:
> How would begin_transaction() and finish_transaction() be
implemented?
> They couldn't be simple wrappers for PostgreSQL transaction handling,

> since it's not very object-oriented (the whole connection has one
> transaction at a time).

You'll have to be more specific about why that is a problem for you,
since your example doesn't make that clear.  Is your application
multithreaded?

-Jonathan



From ville at spammers.com  Thu Aug  5 15:16:44 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 05 Aug 2004 22:16:44 +0300
Subject: Confused about pep 318
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051249050.10473-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1210.1091725930.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<e86dnZBJM6_n84_cRVn-jA@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1216.1091727619.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <du7k6wdqtsz.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Anthony" == Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> writes:

    Anthony> On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 13:29:29 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:

    >> I'll make another donation to PSF if the final decorator syntax
    >> does not Perlishly use arbitrary punctuation as the @ syntax
    >> does.

    Anthony> FFS. What exactly is "Perlish" about @? It's an unused
    Anthony> symbol. That's all.  It's hardly arbitrary - Java, for
    Anthony> instance, already uses @ for the same thing.

The problem with @ as I see it (FWIW, of course) is that the new
syntax wastes @ for a minor feature. I wouldn't mind @[decorator],
which would allow reserving stuff like @private (compiler / type
inferrer / macro / whatever) for future extension of the language.

And "def decorator func(args):" is even worse. Most interesting
applications of decorators involve decorators with arguments...

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From tzot at sil-tec.gr  Sat Aug 21 14:40:44 2004
From: tzot at sil-tec.gr (Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:40:44 +0300
Subject: Why are strings immutable?
References: <chzVc.288437$a24.71659@attbi_s03>
	<10ieqt67kf3139c@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <ql5fi0t6mnbjah18sf5i48ngg7o924io9p@4ax.com>

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:34:54 -0400, rumours say that "John Roth"
<newsgroups at jhrothjr.com> might have written:

[<snip> strings are immutable because...]

>That said, it would be useful to have a
>string buffer object that could be changed.

array.array('c') is a close substitute.
-- 
TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best,
"Tssss!" --Brad Pitt as Achilles in unprecedented Ancient Greek


From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Fri Aug 20 16:37:07 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 22:37:07 +0200
Subject: Fate of lambda, Functional Programming in Python...
In-Reply-To: <41265E67.A08409A6@juno.com>
References: <412636D1.6070808@noaa.gov>
	<mailman.2073.1093028474.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<41265E67.A08409A6@juno.com>
Message-ID: <2on5k1FcjmvdU1@uni-berlin.de>

Jeff Sandys wrote:

> | > > Hi,all
> | > >    I have a list like [(id,string),...],for example:
> | > > 
> | > >    [(1,'xxxxx'),(7,'ppppp'),(4,'gggggg'),...]
> | > > 
> | > >    I want to sort this list according to the id of each element. 
> | > >    After sorting,the list will become:
> | > > 
> | > >    [(1,'xxxxx'),(4,'gggggg'),(7,'ppppp')...]
> | >
> | > list.sort sorts tuples by first argument, then second &c. If you
> want
> | > a custom sort order, look at the decorate-sort-undecorate pattern.
> | 
> |  Or if you want to sort only on your Id, use a lambda:
> |  l.sort(lambda x,y: cmp(x[0],y[0]))
> | 
> |  To force sorting on just the nth element of the tuples, replace 0
> with 
> |  n in the above.
> |
> 
> I think that lambda should be unlimited and expanded.  It already has
> the 
> colon, block delimiter, so allow lambda to be a multistatement and
> multiline
> indented block!

So in what point exactly is this different from a def(), then?

Reinhold

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From cjw at sympatico.ca  Mon Aug  9 15:57:59 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 15:57:59 -0400
Subject: What are decorators?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1404.1092073971.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1404.1092073971.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <5HQRc.11056$Mq1.509571@news20.bellglobal.com>



gohaku wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> The discussion on Python Decorators and "@" has piqued my interest on this
> "feature?" in programming languages such as Python and Java.
> can anybody what is the point in using Decorators?
> 
The term decorator is a bit misleading.  It does not decorate or adorn a 
function, class or method declaration, the declaration is transformed.

There are cases where one might wish to change the behaviour of a 
function to, for example ensure that the arguments being passed in
are of a certain class or that the object returned has given type.


> The examples I have seen written in Python of this "Not Yet Implemented" 
> feature
> are confusing to say the least and perplexes me as to its usefulness.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> -gohaku
> 
In a posting yerterday, Dan bishop wrote:

 >
 > If I understand correctly, they'd be useful for anything where you'd
 > now use the syntax
 >
 > function = decorator(function)
 >
 > In addition to @staticmethod, you could have decorators for
 >
 > (1) Memoization.  Makes repeated function evaluation more efficient
 > without having to rewrite the function.
 >
 > class memoize(object):
 >    def __init__(self, func):
 >       self.__func = func
 >       self.__results = {}
 >    def __call__(self, *args):
 >       if args not in self.__results:
 >          self.__results[args] = self.__func(*args)
 >       return self.__results[args]
 >
 > def fibonacci(n):
 >    @memoize
 >    if n in (0, 1):
 >       return n
 >    return fibonacci(n - 1) + fibonacci(n - 2)
 >
 > (2) Debugging uses, like:
 >
 > class printreturns(object):
 >    "Behaves like f but prints its return values."
 >    def __init__(self, f):
 >       self.__f = f
 >    def __call__(self, *args):
 >       result = self.__f(*args)
 >       if debug:
 >          print 'f%r = %r' % (args, result)
 >       return
 > def somefunc(x, y):
 >    @printreturns
 >    ...

I found it helpful, I hope that you do.

Colin W.



From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug  3 09:49:15 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 09:49:15 -0400
Subject: Call for Grant Proposals
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1070.1091490608.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <40fcaa90$0$27091$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>	<ToadnWWu8tQIgmDdRVn-uQ@giganews.com>	<p_2dnfCS9O4GRmDdRVn-qQ@powergate.ca>	<41097fed$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>	<e69d3ed2040802004962f99d8a@mail.gmail.com>	<410DF640.4010307@acm.org>	<e69d3ed204080201087beb6bf1@mail.gmail.com>	<410DF824.8070309@acm.org>	<e69d3ed20408020146417cca41@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.1070.1091490608.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <xMWdnWfcQO9DCpLcRVn-iw@powergate.ca>

Maurice Ling wrote:

> Then it will means that some projects may not be able to apply for this 
> grant if it is the requirement of the project to be proprietary due to 
> business strategy. What you are saying is that all projects should be 
> open sourced but that may not be the case. Either that or you are 
> indiscriminately lobbying for the cause of open source irregards of 
> whether companies are ready for it or not, and then discriminating 
> against companies who are not ready for it yet. Although I support open 
> source development and had personally donated my work to Sourceforge and 
> Biopython project, I will think that it is tyrannic to assume all work 
> must be open sourced.

"Tyrannic" is hardly an appropriate adjective to apply to this
situation, either in letter or spirit.  You are asking for money to be
*given* to you here... it's a privilege, not a right.

Anyway, I suspect I'm not alone (as one of the people who have made
a donation, however small) in feeling very uncomfortable with the
idea of much of that money being used to fund closed-source projects.

-Peter


From dgolding at sbcglobal.net  Mon Aug  2 11:10:55 2004
From: dgolding at sbcglobal.net (Don Golding)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 15:10:55 GMT
Subject: Sound Capture-AI Mind/Developing AI
References: <ceeeqr$rgi$1@scrotar.nss.udel.edu> <410ad3d1@news.victoria.tc.ca>
Message-ID: <3QsPc.5559$AY5.1852@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>

I would be willing to "prime the pump" and supply my robot Whiskers, at cost
($250), to promote the  development of AI in Forth.

The robot uses Max Forth from New Micros. The Forth language was extended
with new robot control words so you can use it as a mobile Forth language
development platform. It supports Multitasking and has a three level
intelligent architecture which I developed.  Dr. Ken Butterfield of the Los
Alamo National Laboratory helped with the development of the software.

Sensors include: Four optical sensors with analog data registers, two
whiskers, and individual motor current sensing.  A microphone for sound
recognition? and a speaker for sound "language?" generation.  I was trying
to develop an artificial creature for AI researchers to use as a platform to
develop AI for robots.

For more information:

http://www.angelusresearch.com/Whiskers.htm
http://www.angelusresearch.com/articles.htm
http://www.angelusresearch.com/military/

I gave a presentation of this three level architecture to the senior staff
and director of the robotics program at JPL in 1995.  Eighteen months later,
3T, which is a clone of my system, was announced by JPL as the new standard
for intelligent control and is in common use today.  We have a software
copyrights for both 2 level and 3 level intelligent control architectures
for robots.  Most of the robots entered into the Grand Challenge used the 2
level control operation.

Life is fun, isn't it?

Call me to discuss this offer: (714) 590-7877.

Sorry Brad, kinda off topic, but interesting...
Don


"Arthur T. Murray" <uj797 at victoria.tc.ca> wrote in message
news:410ad3d1 at news.victoria.tc.ca...
> "Chris S." writes on Fri, 30 Jul 2004:
>
> > Arthur T. Murray wrote:
> >
> >> "Chris S." writes on Fri, 30 Jul 2004:
> >>
> >>> If you have "solved" AI (a claim I heavily discount),
> >>
> >> http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/theory5.html -- solved in *theory*.
> >
> > After reading over your javascript code, your
> > implementation appears to be a mix between a
> > knowledge base and a natural language parser.
> ATM:
> Yes, a *conceptualized* knowledge base (KB).
>
> > Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to have any general
> > IO capabilities. This is a common pitfall to many amateur
> > AI researchers. Language alone doesn't define knowledge.
>
> Ture. Language is nevertheless closely involved with thought.
>
> > Without a physical perception of the world, a computer
> > will never "know" what 'soft', 'pain', or 'up' mean.
> > I've often thought vision algorithms, speech synthesizers,
> > NLPs, and such without a general form of processing
> > and representing sensory data was like trying
> > to run before we could walk.
>
> The sensorium is where we amateur mind-makers count on
> help from the amateur robot-makers. They want a mind
> for their robots; we want robots for our AI to live in.
> >
> > But if I were to recommend an improvement in your system,
> > I would suggest you try coding it in Python (www.python.org).
>
> http://mind.sourceforge.net/python.html is a Python AI weblog.
>
> > Compared to Javascript, and especially Forth, Python
> > is remarkably easy to learn. Python would allow you
> > to represent your idea in an object-oriented framework,
> > making it much easier for others to understand.
>
> Understanding the AI Mind is helped along considerably by
> http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/jsaimind.html -- for MS IE 5:
>
>                   ____________           ____________
> AI4U textbook    /            \         /            \
> User's Manual   (   Motorium   )       (   Security   )
> Add your link    \____________/         \____________/
>         ____________                               ____________
>        /            \                             / Sensorium  \
>       (  Volition    )      Listening...         ( --> Audition )
>        \____________/                             \____________/
>                    ____________           ____________
>                   /            \         /            \
>                  (    Think     )       (   Emotion    )
>                   \____________/         \____________/
>
> > It would also make persisting dynamic data much easier,
> > so you wouldn't have to hard code so much of your lexicon.
>
> Only an initial, hit-the-ground-thinking lexicon is hard-coded.
> The AI learns new words via the human-computer interaction (HCI).
>
> > Plus you should never run into any platform issues, since
> > Python runs everywhere. Python's quickly becoming a serious
> > tool for AI research. For instance, "AI: A Modern Approach"
> > is currently offering both Lisp and Python source code for
> > many of its examples.
>
> With heartfelt thanks to you for the analysis and advice,
>
> Arthur T. Murray




From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Sat Aug  7 20:51:12 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 08 Aug 2004 02:51:12 +0200
Subject: Proposed improved decorator syntax
References: <mailman.1235.1091753699.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Xns953D1C498DEE3ukcoREMOVEfreenetrtw@130.133.1.4>
Message-ID: <HBF.200408083w3@bombur.uio.no>

barnesc wrote:
> class foo:
>     def introduceNewFeature(self, someArgument, anotherArgument):
>         .decorate = [synchronized]
>         .accepts  = (int, int)
>         .author   = 'Chris King'
>         pass # whatever

I like it better than the current syntax, but I'm troubled by stuff
after the ':' which is executed before the function.
It _looks_ like it is executed inside the function.

Also, the scoping is a bit strange:

    def bar(self, baz):
        .decorate = [baz]
        pass # whatever

The decorator looks like it refers to the function parameter, but it
doesn't: the parameter has no value when the decorator is set.  Though I
guess a simple fix in this case is simply to forbid decorators to use
names that occur as function parameters.

Rob Williscroft wrote:

> But since we can have function's in function's and we already
> have "special" member functions (__init__ etc):
> 
> class Foo:
> 
>   def method( self ):
> 
>     def __decorate__( func ):
>       synchronized( func )
> 
>     __accepts__ = (int, int)
>     __author__ = "whoever"
> 
>     pass

Same problem, only worse.  The def statements of special member
functions are executed while the class body is executed, just like defs
of normal functions.  OTOH, your special functions inside functions must
be executed once before the function is called.

-- 
Hallvard


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Thu Aug 19 22:21:15 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:21:15 +1000
Subject: html templates
Message-ID: <1092968475.4125601b5c572@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

i am looking for a framework to create a fast dynamic website. between
using Cheetah and HTMLTemplate which would you recommend?
also quixote offers a session management API? how secure is this session
management? is it just a cookie on the client side?

thanks

cheers
ajay





----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 11 14:05:40 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:05:40 -0400
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar, but for what exactly?
In-Reply-To: <4117a6f7$1@news.012.net.il>
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
	<4115b53a$1@nntp0.pdx.net> <4116239e$1@news.012.net.il>
	<4116ac05$1@nntp.zianet.com> <4117a6f7$1@news.012.net.il>
Message-ID: <411a5ff4$1@nntp.zianet.com>

Avner Ben wrote:
> Properties do not look like functions but are implemented as functions. 
> there is no requirement that a variable must hide behind a property, or 
> that it Must allow both read and write access.

Agreed. I was providing what I thought might be a common case. The fact 
that properties can distill functionality into something that looks like 
a variable is partly why they're so powerful.

>> [Ship]     property a:
>>       def __init__( s, v):
>>         __set__( s, v)
> 
> Why property constructor?

Why not? It's as good a way as any to give a variable-backed property an 
initial value. Setting it directly would break the encapsulation of the 
property.

> I recall reading somewhere That the Beta language allowed subclassing 
> anything

Yep. Because Beta has no classes, but rather works on a prototype 
system. Everything is an object. The "class" of an object is the 
interface it supports at that particular time. To create a new object, 
clone an existing one, and modify it to taste.

Seriously powerful. Seriously hard to keep track of. Neat language.

  -- Mark


From litnsio2 at dreamwiz.com  Thu Aug 26 08:26:38 2004
From: litnsio2 at dreamwiz.com (Intaek LIM)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 05:26:38 -0700
Subject: building errors with py2exe
Message-ID: <d928c3a8.0408260426.3448c1c9@posting.google.com>

i'd tried to build my work with py2exe.
my work consisted of:

D:\temp\main.py
D:\temp\ui\__init__.py (contains __all__=['dlg','dlgevent']
D:\temp\ui\dlg.py
D:\temp\ui\dlgevent.py
D:\temp\mymod\__init__.py (contains __all__=['session','sessionevent']
D:\temp\mymod\auth.py
D:\temp\mymod\session.py
D:\temp\mymod\sessionevent.py


i wrote build file like ths:

#build.py
from distutils.core import setup
import py2exe

setup(console=["main.py"])


then, i typed two commands as follows:
D:\Temp>SET PYTHONPATH=D:\Temp
D:\Temp>python build.py py2exe


a bunch of files created under 'dist' and 'build'
once i executed main.exe under 'dist', the result was,

Traceback <most recent call alst>:
  File "main.py", line 1, in ?
AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'auth'


in build log, py2exe only includes two __init__.py files and
does not include anything else in the same folder.

how do i solve this?


Lim.


From jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl  Sat Aug  7 17:46:51 2004
From: jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl (Jarek Zgoda)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 21:46:51 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu> <cf3b56$gt6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>
	<m3y8kqpw2l.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
	<cf3dna$891$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>
	<mailman.1340.1091913519.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cf3ikb$qov$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>

Tim Peters <tim.peters at gmail.com> pisze:

>> You want to say "if you want any improvement, do it yourself"? Sure,
>> it's much better than Java's JCP, but expect
>> http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/F/fork.html if enough people will share
>> the same annoyance and anger.
> 
> I don't understand.  If you believe that nobody is volunteering work
> on things you want them to work on now (which may well be true,
> although it's false that volunteers don't contribute work on thread
> and performance issues already), how could merely forking Python make
> such volunteers appear?

Sorry, I am biased, we have "PLD Linux Distribution" in here in Poland,
where forks are considered as "development model". ;)

Generally, I see adding features a more desired attitude in developer's
community than simple fixing problems and this is my point (and I think
Miklos's too).

>> I write some free software, but I never tell users "go fix it yourself".
>> This is rude.
> 
> Under the assumption that volunteers exist who want to work on what
> you want them to work on, but that they've somehow managed to miss
> Python's patch tracker, Michael was helpfully giving them the one clue
> they still needed to make you happy <wink>.

I didn't submit any patch to Python. I even don't know how to improve
Python. I just use Python in my daily work and I go into the same
problems as others get.

-- 
Jarek Zgoda
http://jpa.berlios.de/


From photos at conversent.net  Fri Aug  6 19:14:16 2004
From: photos at conversent.net (S. David Rose)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 23:14:16 GMT
Subject: Python Win32 & TWAIN scanning?
Message-ID: <chUQc.27895$zc4.9670440@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Hello everyone.
  I am very much enjoying learning python.  I am fiddling with a project
that I've decided to use on the Win32 platform.  I'd like to be able to
scan a document as a graphic and save it thru Python to a file.  I believe
that on Windows, all scanning is done thru the TWAIN interface.  I'd like
to use a USB scanner.  I've googled for info. regarding Python, PIL, and
scanners but haven't seen anything related to what I'm looking for.  Can
anyone out there 'bump' me in the right direction please?

Thank you!
Dave Rose


From dd55 at cornell.edu  Fri Aug 20 08:47:25 2004
From: dd55 at cornell.edu (Darren Dale)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:47:25 -0400
Subject: My only complaint about Python
In-Reply-To: <1uuai0l4k13g9gtv55fe7hh2c8io8grr3a@4ax.com>
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<1uuai0l4k13g9gtv55fe7hh2c8io8grr3a@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <cg4rst$hfr$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>

Tim Roberts wrote:
> Darren Dale <dd55 at cornell.edu> wrote:
> 
>>.... As a scientist funded by the NSF, I feel compelled to 
>>do all my work using free software (I feel compelled to use free 
>>software, regardless).
> 
> 
> Then what on Earth are you doing with Windows?

I am working on switching to Linux. I cant commit until I graduate in 6 
months.


From http  Sat Aug 14 19:57:12 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 14 Aug 2004 16:57:12 -0700
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
References: <mailman.1661.1092519005.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <7x7js1i887.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Michael Sparks <zathras at thwackety.com> writes:
> > It seems to me that in python, generators are not truly coroutines.
> 
> Assuming you mean there isn't available a default scheduler for them, or
> there isn't pre-emption built-in I agree. If you mean something else, I'm
> curious as to what you think is missing. (I've also been using generators
> as co-routines for sometime for various reasons)

You can't yield across multiple levels of function calls.  That's why
they're called "simple generators" instead of just "generators".


From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Aug  5 10:19:33 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 16:19:33 +0200
Subject: [Python-Dev] RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
Message-ID: <411241F5.3080602@v.loewis.de>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> Python 2.4a2 is an alpha release. We'd greatly appreciate it if you
> could download it, kick the tires and let us know of any problems you
> find, but it is not suitable for production usage.

The Windows installer should support upgrading from a previous Python 
2.4 installation. If you have previously installed 2.4a1, you may try
this out; please report any problems you find.

Regards,
Martin


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 17:09:00 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 23:09:00 +0200
Subject: Inline Conditionals?
References: <mailman.2307.1093385983.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<jt6dnb18R-cz6LDcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
	<1gj4rpq.1oyt89b14xvbdqN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncirqvf.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<1gj5bit.rt2tmzcznspxN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xbrgxobts.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <1gj5eu6.11pmwsddky84nN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:

> aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:
> > aux = []
> > for x in Somelist:
> >     if x.property:
> >         aux.append(foo(x))
> >     else
> >         aux.append(foo(x))
> > 
> > would be vastly more readable; "sparse is better than dense" and any LC
> > is far too dense to be Pythonic here.
> 
> Hmm,
> 
>     [ x.property ? foo(x) : bar(x) for x in Somelist ]
> 
> doesn't seem too dense, unless you consider -every- LC to be too
> dense, in which case why have them?  

I don't, but I do consider almost every application of ternary to result
in too-dense code, which is why I'm ecstatic not to have them.

> more readable and harder to get wrong, unlike your sparse example,
> which has 'foo' on both branches of the conditional where you meant
> 'foo' and 'bar'.

...as several people already noticed, proving the great readability of
the sparse way of expressing oneself...


Alex


From mslimmer at csbuilders.net  Mon Aug 16 02:44:44 2004
From: mslimmer at csbuilders.net (Max Slimmer)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 23:44:44 -0700
Subject: ADOdbapi converting all data to strings
In-Reply-To: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022DFA@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <FHEKLMLGOFBCCMNGMAEJCEHOCKAA.mslimmer@csbuilders.net>

I guess I wasn't clear and only confused the question with date.  The
problem I have is that NUMERIC data time fields are being returned as
strings.  So if the database has a column declared as int or as float or
number of any kind, when I do a select I get back the value as a unicode
string and I want integers to be returned as integers and numbers with
percision (decimal points) to be returned as float.  Dates get returned as
type datetime and that is great, it is the NUMERIC data types that are
returned as strings which is the problem.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Brewer [mailto:fumanchu at amor.org]
> Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2004 11:18 PM
> To: max; python-list at python.org
> Subject: RE: ADOdbapi converting all data to strings
>
>
> max wrote:
> > I am trying to access a foxpro database, using odbc all is well except
> > that dates prior to 1970 are not returned as valid usable data, so
> > would like to use ADO. When I select data containing numbers (long or
> > float) they are converted and returned as unicode strings. Dates are
> > returned as datetime.date which is great. Is there any way to change
> > this behavior other than to explicitly change back all fields using
> > cursor.description information.
>
> I *think* you're saying that you have a COM date (which is similar to a
> float), and want a datetime.date.
>
>
> import datetime
> # 12/30/1899, the zero-Date for ADO = 693594
> zeroDate = datetime.date(1899, 12, 30).toordinal()
>
> def coerce_datetime(value):
>     return datetime.date.fromordinal(int(float(value)) + zeroDate)
>
>
> COM times are more complicated. Inquire further if you need to handle
> them.
>
>
> Robert Brewer
> MIS
> Amor Ministries
> fumamchu at amor.org
>



From brett at python.org  Wed Aug 25 15:03:49 2004
From: brett at python.org (Brett C.)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 12:03:49 -0700
Subject: python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
References: <mailman.2274.1093330945.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<3l3pi0pgmgu0uir1ucnj0rlfo355c6i5cp@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <8ab0589d.0408251103.13ddda04@posting.google.com>

Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote in message news:<3l3pi0pgmgu0uir1ucnj0rlfo355c6i5cp at 4ax.com>...
> On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:50:48 -0700, Brett Cannon
> <bac at OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
> >
> >But then Guido decided to make my life difficult by saying that if the 
> >community could come up with an agreed-upon alternative syntax to 
> >propose to him he would consider ripping out the '@' syntax; decorators 
> >have always been experimental and '@' was checked in so people had 
> >*something* to play with.  This meant everyone and their mother started 
> >to propose both new and old syntaxes for decorators.  This led to a 
> >record amount of email on python-dev (at least compared to what we have 
> >archives for; back to April 1999).
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> >"In the old days, Guido would Pronounce, and we'd all bite our tongues 
> >(although not necessarily each his own).  The less time Guido can make 
> >for Python, the more important becomes graceful capitulation."  Tim said 
> >this and it makes me wish for the old days.  People had *months* to 
> >comment on decorators and no one spoke up until something went into the 
> >language.  Procrastination is not a virtue when it comes to major 
> >language evolution discussions.  What was worse was when the emails 
> >started repeating themselves (which was pretty much from the get-go when 
> >this exploded).  Seemed like people decided to start talking without 
> >doing some research.  Granted the PEP was outdated and the wiki page was 
> >not up yet, but this stuff was covered in the Summaries before and you 
> >could have just Googled for the previous threads.
> 
> Perhaps you could clarify your position a bit.  I think the
> "community" understands some fundamental difference between posting to
> python-dev and to python-list.

python-dev is meant for discussing details about  Python's evolution. 
The idea is that pie-in-the-sky ideas get hashed out in the community
(which c.l.py is the gateway), once it gets clarified and has
community support it moves over to python-dev, it gets discussed
there, and either gets accepted, canned, or revised and sent back out
to the community for more refinement.

Obviously this is not hard and fast, but in general that is how it is
supposed to work.

>  If not Aahz is normally there to
> remind them.
> 

=)

> Guido's "genius" extends to marketing, IMO.
> 
> Having some sense of participation in the fate of Python, even if bit
> hullicinatory, is fundamental to the development of its following.  A
> clasic form of guerilla marketing.  Considering that the Python
> markteing budget in $ is 0, I think it would be a mistake to have the
> community believe that their only role is to read the release notes.
> 

But the community shouldn't think that.  Just read the developer intro
(http://www.python.org/dev/dev_intro.html) and you  can see how many
mentions there are of the community in it.  Participation is
practically required for a PEP to even be considered  being looked at,
for instance.

> >
> >Personally, if I was Guido, I would have said that the community had 
> >their chance to speak up and they just didn't take it. 
> 
> I think you are inadvertently going somewhere dangerous here.  A
> significant part of the community finds that their first appropriate
> opportunity to comment to be after some initial decision at python-dev
> - the Senate.  It then goes to the People. We the rowdy poeple then do
> our rowdy thing.
> 
> You see the point...
> 
> I don't think you want to say to the People, either to crash the
> Senate floor, or hold their peace,
> 

Just to start off, I hope everyone realizes this is my opinion and in
no way do I represent python-dev in any official way.  Even with the
Summaries I just happen to be dumb enough to do them so they just let
me play in my little corner while I write up the history book.  =)

OK, with that disclaimer out of the way...

That is the reverse order of things are supposed to be.  It should go:
the idea being put before the people, they let their collective voice
be known, and then the Senate takes a look and has a vote.  We try to
use the community as a basic filter for feature ideas, python-dev
hashes out  the details.  Trust me, you don't want python-dev
involvement unless you want really nitty-gritty arguments over things
as small as function names and stdlib coding style.  It is not a party
with Barry getting plastered on beer, Tim with a lady on each arm, and
me getting stoned in a corner with the crack that Barry gave me
earlier while Raymond is tweaking out on Speed

I am sure people are going to be sick of my political system
analogies, but my bachelors is in philosophy so it's how I think.  =) 
Think of c.l.py as the general public.  Its role is to come up with
ideas and to voice its opinion on those ideas.  python-dev is the
advising committee to the BDFL.  Its role is to take ideas from the
community and to generate its own in terms of running PythonLand in
terms of day-to-day details; it's Guido's cabinet.  Guido, the
dictator, holds absolute power and makes final decisions on things
that the cabinet brings in front of him.  It actually mirrors the US
government fairly well sans the ability to overturn the dictator  =) .

Although it is in no way a direct, or even indirect democracy (then
again it  could be argued neither is  the US with the amount of
political passivity in the country).  People live in PythonLand if
they are happy but really have no direct vote unless the dictator
gives it to them on some specific issue.  And if people really don't
like that they are free to leave although no one wants that to happen.
 Yes, we try to listen to what people want, but in the end we all rely
on Guido's gut to lead us.

And that is the order that things are supposed to flow.  Public voices
opinion on idea, cabinet fiddles, dictator decides.  Usually it goes
that way unless someone from the public skips dealing with the public
forum and goes straight to the cabinet.  If it is a small, simple idea
that is fine, but if the idea has any form of complexity the person
gets kicked out and told to talk to his fellow man first to see if
they like the idea.

And this is essentially how it went when decorators were first brought
up.  But then the public decided to throw a little mutiny over the
dictator's decision.  It's the first time I know of where the
community came back to really snap at Guido for his decision (all
other times has been people whining but eventually people said, "I
wish you had not done that, but  I will just deal with it and trust
you").  I think everyone (community, python-dev, maybe even Guido) has
learned some lessons from this whole experience.

I just don't want people to suddenly get the impression that they can
always just throw a little mutiny every time Guido makes a decision. 
Do that and he will just ignore what people want period and never even
give people a chance to propose an alternative once it reaches
python-dev.

And I want people to realize my tirade was just that, a personal
tirade.  It was out of frustration and thus should be taken with a
grain of salt.

And that frustration came from the feeling that the Python community,
which I love, seemed to suddenly form a mob, grab pitchforks and
torches, and started screaming.  And then they seemed to hold a public
meeting with *everyone* proposing their idea and not completely
listening to initial decisions.

I truly hope that next time Guido makes a decision that people as a
whole disagree with everyone involved can get together and discuss it
calmly without flooding my inbox.  =)

-Brett


From aranders at insightbb.com  Sat Aug  7 02:06:30 2004
From: aranders at insightbb.com (Alan Anderson)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 23:06:30 -0700
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>	<opsb9g3hjudgjose@mail.yahoo.it>
	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2-SdnZCwNs1SwI_cRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <53449fcb.0408062139.7dbbeb4d@posting.google.com>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> Yes, of course after using them for a while they will become more 
> readable, but there are people who have learned to speak Klingon as
> well -- and that doesn't change the fact that Klingon is deliberately
> very difficult to learn and awkward.

Pardon me for jumping in, but I happen to be attending a conference on
the Klingon language at the moment and I wanted to correct a
misunderstanding.  Yes, Klingon is deliberately "alien", being
intentionally created to be unlike many natural languages in many
ways. But it's actually rather easy to learn, and it's only "awkward"
in a couple of minor ways (embedding comparatives in larger sentences,
for example) -- *every* language has its awkward spots.

Were Klingon a natural language, its regularity would be exceptional.

This is just an anectodal data point that might let you know that what
is difficult and awkward from your point of view could very well be
simple and straightforward for others who don't share your
preconceptions.

--
  Alan Anderson, professional programmer and amateur Klingonist
    proud member of the Klingon Language Institute since 1995
qo'mey poSmoH Hol -- language opens worlds -- http://www.kli.org/


From grante at visi.com  Thu Aug 12 10:17:01 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 14:17:01 GMT
Subject: Help understanding Scheme's syntax, procedures and calls
References: <95f168b0.0408120120.31433dc7@posting.google.com>
	<411b577a$0$20523$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk>
Message-ID: <411b7bdd$0$65612$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-12, Peter Hickman <peter at semantico.com> wrote:

> Is this someone's homework by any chance?

According to the OP, it's part of a final exam.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Yow! Those people
                                  at               look exactly like Donnie
                               visi.com            and Marie Osmond!!


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 00:27:15 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:27:15 +1000
Subject: __name__ becoming read-write?
In-Reply-To: <ultki0h81hl8fmgd452tqsfqihv6hpvege@4ax.com>
References: <uutji0h87t24cb1nej03gdggs0hg6eno3l@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2205.1093275632.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<c94ki0dgh70ud7e1ok8sshlvg4pe96s4h8@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2211.1093279236.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<3b8ki0tlphodtt8ge8an274qp78ihp1i3n@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2223.1093282711.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ultki0h81hl8fmgd452tqsfqihv6hpvege@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408232127372168b5@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 23:17:25 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
> > "So wait, this stuff that _looks_ like code in a
> >function, isn't actually? what the hell?" The new syntax[1] for
> >decorators is at least very obvious that something _new_ is going on.
> 
> I am thinking (and I think Paul is thinking) that we can say the same
> thing, succintly, in a manner that has precedence in the language
> 
> Mine's a one-liner that does not totally relieve the magicians burden
> to be - somwhere down the line -  a bit expressive

I'm not _quite_ sure what it is you're asking for here, but it _seems_
like you want to have two different blocks inside a def - the first is
the meta-block, which contains docstrings and other magic attributes,
while the second is the actual code body? Is this correct? If this is
the case, I think it's _possible_ that in the future we might see
something like this, for typing purposes. Maybe. I'm not sure. But if
we do, I can't see any point _at_ _all_ to signifying magic things
with arbitrary words surrounded with __under__ meaning 'under is a
decorator'. While Python does use __foo__, the list of values for foo
that are meaningful is well described and documented.

As to the specific detail about whether you can assign to a functions
__name__ from inside the function - this will break a lot of tools
that attempt to handle python code. How is an editor to find the
method 'frobulate' in a .py file? Right now, it can be done with a
pretty simple regexp. Even if one of the syntaxes for decorators that
insert the decorators on the def line goes in, you can still do it
with a more complex regexp. But something like this?

class Frobozz:
  def frobulate():
        meta:
                 __name__ = defrobulate

An IDE or editor that tries to find defrobulate is going to go insane.

One final clarification - altering a method's __name__ does not change
it's name in the class's __dict__.

>>> class A:
...     def foo(self): pass
...     foo.__name__ = 'bar'
... 
>>> A().bar()
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
AttributeError: A instance has no attribute 'bar'
>>> A().foo()
>>>


From duncan.booth at invalid.invalid  Sun Aug  8 09:20:34 2004
From: duncan.booth at invalid.invalid (Duncan Booth)
Date: 8 Aug 2004 13:20:34 GMT
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar, but for what exactly?
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
	<mailman.1352.1091953503.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<m2u0vdj1bn.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
Message-ID: <Xns953F91E18B19Fduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>

Dan Sommers <me at privacy.net> wrote in 
news:m2u0vdj1bn.fsf at unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right:

> On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 18:24:58 +1000,
> Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> In many cases, these new features actually lead to smaller, simpler
>> code. I challenge _anyone_ to tell me that
>>   apply(func, args, kwargs) 
>> is better than 
>>   func(*args, **kwargs)
> 
> Okay, I will.  The old way is better than the new way.
> 
> Explicit is better than implicit, after all.
> 
> Given your second example, is func the name of a function or an object
> that references a function?  Can I grep my source code to find a
> function named func?  (Okay, I'll find the variable named func, so at
> least I'll have some clue as to what's going on.)  Is there a "from
> module import func" statement in sight?  What happens when I look up
> "func" in the Python documentation to see if it's a built in name?

Why do you ask this about the second form only? func is a name that 
references a function in both cases. It doesn't matter whether that name 
was assigned directly with a def statement, or is the result of a 
subsequent binding.

> 
> C did the same thing recently.
> 
> Old C:  (*f)( argument );
> 
> New C:  f( argument );
> 
> With the old syntax, I knew immediately that f was a pointer to a
> function and that the function to which it pointed was being called
> indirectly.  With the new one, I have to track down a definition or
> declaration of f to see that. 

For 'recently' read 1987. In fact most C compilers probably implemented 
this feature before the ISO standard came out, but it was a feature of the 
first standardised version of C. I remember around that time being 
extremely glad that I could finally omit those extraneous parentheses.


From heikowu at ceosg.de  Mon Aug  9 14:51:12 2004
From: heikowu at ceosg.de (Heiko Wundram)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 20:51:12 +0200
Subject: What are decorators?
In-Reply-To: <200408092025.42519.heikowu@ceosg.de>
References: <68BA7704-EA25-11D8-9BC6-000A9574CFD8@earthlink.net>
	<200408092025.42519.heikowu@ceosg.de>
Message-ID: <200408092051.12507.heikowu@ceosg.de>

I forgot to append the actual output from the two examples.

The first example (func_spec) outputs:

heiko at d168 ~ $ python2.4 test.py
y's author and version: Heiko Wundram 0.1
z's author and version: Somebody else 0.2
Authors, and functions by authors: {'Somebody else': 1, 'Heiko Wundram': 1}
Calling y.
Calling z.
heiko at d168 ~ $

And the second example (debugger) outputs:

heiko at d168 ~ $ python2.4 test3.py
---- DEBUGGER STARTS HERE ----
Entering: y
Arguments: (<__main__.x object at 0xb7bff2cc>,)
Keyword arguments: {}
Running function...
Function returned: (42, 'the answer to everything')
Leaving: y
---- DEBUGGER ENDS HERE ----
---- DEBUGGER STARTS HERE ----
Entering: y
Arguments: (<__main__.x object at 0xb7bff2cc>, True)
Keyword arguments: {}
Running function...
Running function raised exception.
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "test3.py", line 14, in debugf
    retv = f(*args,**kwargs)
  File "test3.py", line 31, in y
    raise Exception, "We raise an exception here."
Exception: We raise an exception here.
Leaving: y
---- DEBUGGER ENDS HERE ----
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "test3.py", line 39, in ?
    ob.y(True)
  File "test3.py", line 14, in debugf
    retv = f(*args,**kwargs)
  File "test3.py", line 31, in y
    raise Exception, "We raise an exception here."
Exception: We raise an exception here.
heiko at d168 ~ $

HTH!

Heiko.


From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Tue Aug 31 13:54:09 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:54:09 +0200
Subject: python port
References: <mailman.2645.1093924892.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ch2dvs$nkg$01$1@news.t-online.com>

Ajay wrote:

> hi!
> 
> if i am porting an existing python package to a different environment and
> the package uses some C code, would the port only involve recompiling it
> under the new envionment. for pocket pc's would recompiling using embedded
> Visual c++ with the pocket pc sdk be enough?
> or is there more to it?

Depends your code - simple stuff might work, but systemcalls and the like
may behave differently or not exist at all.

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Thu Aug 12 16:02:09 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:02:09 -0700
Subject: multiline snippets with triple quotes
In-Reply-To: <cfgff0$p3o$1@online.de>
References: <cfgff0$p3o$1@online.de>
Message-ID: <10hnj4bjqojjh05@corp.supernews.com>

Christoph Zwerschke wrote:

>I sometimes use triple quotes in order to produce snippets of multiline
>code, like that:
>
>if output == html:
>    snip =    '''<html>
>                    <head><title>Hello, World</title></head>
>                    <body bgcolor="aqua"><h1>What's up?</h1>
>                    </html>'''
>else:
>    snip = 'Hello!'
>  
>

[...]

>So, what would be the pythonic way to implement such multiline snippets?
>  
>

IIRC, sequential strings with only whitespace in between them are 
automatically concatenated.  So the above could be equivalently written as:

if output == html:
    snip =    "<html>\n"
                    "<head><title>Hello, World</title></head>\n"
                    "<body bgcolor="aqua"><h1>What's up?</h1>\n"
                    "</html>\n"
else:
    snip = 'Hello!'


This does have the disadvantage of requiring explicit newlines, however.

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From mcfletch at rogers.com  Fri Aug  6 12:01:24 2004
From: mcfletch at rogers.com (Mike C. Fletcher)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 12:01:24 -0400
Subject: Queue qsize = unreliable?
In-Reply-To: <m3hdrgqnp7.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
References: <1091805850.15192.12.camel@localhost>	<mailman.1278.1091806388.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<m3hdrgqnp7.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <4113AB54.1060307@rogers.com>

Michael Hudson wrote:

>"Mike C. Fletcher" <mcfletch at rogers.com> writes:
>
>  
>
>>Tim, of course, would know better, but that's always been my interpretation.
>>    
>>
>
>Can I please quote this out of context? :-)
>  
>
Perfectly true statement, so why not :) .

:)
Mike

________________________________________________
  Mike C. Fletcher
  Designer, VR Plumber, Coder
  http://www.vrplumber.com
  http://blog.vrplumber.com



From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Mon Aug 16 11:33:41 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:33:41 -0400
Subject: Newbie question about Tkinter
In-Reply-To: <f06d8508.0408160615.6f0fce93@posting.google.com>
References: <f06d8508.0408160615.6f0fce93@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408161121450.11043-100000@ccc3.wpi.edu>

On 16 Aug 2004, Andr? Roberge wrote:

> The following program (Python 2.3, under Windows XP)
> ===
> import Tkinter as Tk
> A = Tk.Tk()
> A.title("1")
> A.mainloop()
> B = Tk.Tk()
> B.title("2")
> B.mainloop()
> ===
> opens window A and waits for it to be closed before opening window B.

For the record, you should only use Tk() once in your program; besides 
being the main top-level window, it also instantiates Tk and the Tcl 
interpreter.  If you want multiple top-level windows, use Tk() for the 
main one and Toplevel() for any additional ones.

> However, the following opens both windows "simultaneously".  I tought
> it would give the same result as the one above... I am confused.
> ====
> ====
> Anyone can explain or give a pointer to the answer.

Calling .mainloop() on any widget enters the "main event loop", which 
waits for keyboard/mouse events and dispatches them accordingly.  
.mainloop() typically doesn't return until the main top-level window (A or 
B in this case) is destroyed.  In the first example, you're calling 
A.mainloop() before creating B; hence A must be destroyed in order for 
A.mainloop() to exit.  Try each of the above in the interactive 
interpreter to see exactly what's going on (Tk works beautifully in an 
interactive mode).

Rewriting the above using Toplevel:

 import Tkinter as Tk
 A = Tk.Tk()
 A.title("1")
 B = Tk.Toplevel(A)
 B.title("2")
 A.mainloop()

Passing A as an argument to Toplevel (to specify its master) is optional; 
if you don't, Tkinter will automatically pick A as its master.



From reynirhs at mi.is  Thu Aug 26 22:11:05 2004
From: reynirhs at mi.is (Reynir Stefánsson)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 02:11:05 +0000
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<HvadnUsZ7IAwc7DcRVn-sQ@megapath.net>
Message-ID: <oo5ti0t2cq6j7hflie1al5pals2c2tpr7d@4ax.com>

So spake R Baumann:

>
>"Xah Lee" <xah at xahlee.org> wrote in message
>news:7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a at posting.google.com...
>> Larry Wall and Cults
>> (Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
>> 200012
>>
><BIG SNIP>
>
>In this context --- This is the STUPIDEST thing I've ever heard.  What a
>maroon!  What a Trollup!

Well, wasn't it lwall that said: "All language designers are arrogant.
Comes with the territory."?
-- 
Reynir Stef?nsson (reynirhs at mi.is)


From nytimes at swiftdsl.com.au  Tue Aug 17 10:10:54 2004
From: nytimes at swiftdsl.com.au (huy)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 00:10:54 +1000
Subject: Best programming language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1718.1092639914.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1718.1092639914.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <41221176$0$27222$61ce578d@news.syd.swiftdsl.com.au>

Roman Suzi wrote:
> ;-)
> 
> Just type into google
> "best programming language"
> and press (I am lucky)
> 
> 
> Sincerely yours, Roman Suzi

Try typing

"programming language" and press "I'm feeling lucky"


Ahhh....that's more like it :-P

Huy


From spam_me_gently_with_a_chainsaw at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  2 11:54:34 2004
From: spam_me_gently_with_a_chainsaw at yahoo.com (Double Dumbass on You)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 08:54:34 -0700
Subject: Trimming a string
References: <10gsmuieo65du5d@news.supernews.com>
	<ektPc.165630$OB3.11201@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <10gsotqjc2qrl54@news.supernews.com>

Do you feel better about yourself for having posted a smug, shithead-type
answer, troll??

As a matter of fact, I was in a near fatal car wreck about 7 years ago.
Suffered some brain damage.  Now, I can't remember minute details such as
that which I asked.  I have read the python documentation numerous times.
Sometimes, I just need a simple answer to a simple question, you simple
cocksucker.

GO FUCK YOURSELF, it will be time well spent for you.

"wes weston" <wweston at att.net> wrote in message
news:ektPc.165630$OB3.11201 at bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Double Dumbass on You wrote:
> > I have a string that is 7 characters and represents file mode in
UNIX/LINUX
> > from rpm:
> >
> > 0100755
> >
> > I don't care about the 0100 portion, I am only interested in the file
> > permissions portion which is 755.  How can I get three characters from
the
> > string starting at the right?  ( -OR- strip 4 characters from the
left? )
> >
> >
> DD,
>
>  >>> x = "0100755"
>  >>> print x[4:]
> 755
>
>     Reading the tutorial is really time well spent.
> wes
>




From nospam at mega-nerd.com  Fri Aug 13 09:18:48 2004
From: nospam at mega-nerd.com (Erik de Castro Lopo)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 23:18:48 +1000
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<411C8CD9.32F39C2@mega-nerd.com>
	<mailman.1604.1092391753.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <411CBFB8.22A08E9F@mega-nerd.com>

Brian Quinlan wrote:
> 
> You are comparing apples and oranges. 

Yes, Ocaml and Python are very different languages but ...

> The programmer provides OCaml
> with additional information that allows it to interfer the type.

But Ocaml does have parametric polymorphism, ...

> Looking at the example above, the OCaml equivalent would be:
> 
> let sum x,y = x + y;;
> 
> But this function would only work for integers because the * operator
> only applies to integers. If you wanted to multipy floats then you
> would write:
> 
> let sum x,y = x +. y;;
> 
> So there is no magic in OCaml, just a different way of providing type
> information.

Using ints and floats is a bad example because Ocaml has different
operators for float and int. A better example might be a function to 
do the Python eqivalent of

    string.join (list_of_strings, ", ")

Ie:

     (* The list version *)
     let rec comma_join lst =
	match lst with
		[] -> ""
	|	hd :: [] -> hd
	|	hd :: tl -> hd ^ ", " ^ (comma_join tl)
	;;

    (* The array version, an example only. *)
    let comma_join ary =
	comma_join (Array.to_list ary)
	;;


Ocaml has no problem differentiating two functions with the same
name by looking at how the function arguments are used and assuming 
the function is generic if insufficient information is available.

Erik
-- 
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
  Erik de Castro Lopo  nospam at mega-nerd.com (Yes it's valid)
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
"One World, one Web, one Browser." - Microsoft promotion
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer." - Adolf Hitler


From python at elehack.net  Tue Aug  3 17:23:09 2004
From: python at elehack.net (Michael Ekstrand)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 16:23:09 -0500
Subject: Modern dead-tree Python resources
Message-ID: <200408031623.09558.python@elehack.net>

I'm sitting here looking at my copy of David Beazley's Python Essential 
Reference, which I find wonderful, but am lamenting that it only covers 
through Python 1.5.2. And I see that the 2nd edition covers through 
Python 2.1.

Is there a good book that covers Python at least through 2.2 (including 
new-style classes, etc.)? I'm particularly looking for something with 
large appendices of reference material. (alternatively, if someone's 
publishing print versions of the Python documentation, that would 
possibly be of interest. I know I saw some for Python 1.5 or 1.6 in a 
used bookstore, but don't recall who published them.)

TIA,
Michael


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Tue Aug  3 11:17:53 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay Brar)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 01:17:53 +1000
Subject: Crypto.PublicKey.RSA.error: Plaintext too large
Message-ID: <410FACA1.5050300@mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

I am getting an error - Crypto.PublicKey.RSA.error: Plaintext too large 
- when verifying the signature of a document.
What i am doing is - the document and the signature are downloaded off 
the net, my verify script then connects to a server and obtains a public 
key. It then uses the public key to verify the signature.
The whole thing works fine when i do the same thing in the interactive 
interpreter. Its only when i download the files and obtain the public 
key from the server and then verify, that i get the above error.

any suggesstions...ideas???

cheers

-- 
Ajay Brar
CS Honours 2004
Smart Internet Technology Research Group

http://www.it.usyd.edu.au/~abrar1



From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Tue Aug 10 00:32:37 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 21:32:37 -0700
Subject: SQL Qeries via XMLRPC
References: <mailman.1423.1092099390.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <3ovlu1-l6f.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

Simon Wittber wrote:
> The problem is, I have a tiny little nag in my mind about the use of
> XMLRPC (and therefore HTTP) to implement this.
>
> Has anyone done this sort of thing before?
>
> Are there any problems with this strategy that I have not considered?

Using XML-RPC is a great way of exposing services and data.
You do however want the API exposed to be higher level
rather than lower level (for example retrieve an entire
record in one go rather than a field at a time).

Using XML-RPC does not prevent also adding other service
mechanisms such as SOAP, CORBA or whatever is flavour
of next year.  I would suggest looking at the Cookbook
to get a feel for it, and also to see the limitations.
For example XML-RPC doesn't support None and SOAP
can't handle empty dictionaries.

Note that using XML-RPC does not mean HTTP.  The most
common transport for XML-RPC is HTTP, but you can use
it over anything.  In one of my projects I use it over
SSH (using the Paramiko library to do the SSH part)

The existing standard Python library XML-RPC works
well, but has the limitation that it doesn't fully
support HTTP authentication and it uses one connection
per request.  The authentication issue can be solved
by making authentication part of your exposed APIs,
not the underlying XML-RPC transport.

The one connection per request will presumably be
solved in a future release of the Python library
and generally is not an issue on a LAN.

The great thing about using XML-RPC is the cross
language portability.  You can get bindings for any
language.  One of my projects was a web site with
the front end done in PHP (Smarty) and the backend
all being Python exposed via XML-RPC over HTTP.

Roger 




From davZZZYYYXXXout at dial.pipex.com  Wed Aug  4 11:26:18 2004
From: davZZZYYYXXXout at dial.pipex.com (davout)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 16:26:18 +0100
Subject: newbie question: embedding Python into a C++ app and calling app
	functions
Message-ID: <41110011$0$26988$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com>

I've a complete Python newbie so please forgive any dumb questions...

I'm looking to embed python as a scripting language into my C++ application.
The basic idea is to allow the app user to build custom scripts that join
toegther various process steps that are represented by process related
classes within my C++ app.

How can I define this so that my C++ process related classes are available
to a python script?






From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Thu Aug  5 16:07:46 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 16:07:46 -0400
Subject: Decorator syntax
In-Reply-To: <bLWdnTsjYbTiDI_cRVn-vg@giganews.com>
References: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA1A@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>
	<mailman.1226.1091731685.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<bLWdnTsjYbTiDI_cRVn-vg@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051601580.14462-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Istvan Albert wrote:

> The disagreement is caused by trying to achieve a lot of different
> things with one feature.
> 
> Thus the solution that is emerging is to cram everything in
> front of the function definition.

Agreed!  Exactly!  Most of what people seem to want from decorators are 
a way to specify function types, do type checking, and give functions 
attributes / metadata.  As I've said before, these are seperable problems 
and should be treated as such.  What little left over that can 
benefit from general-purpose decoraters will likely not be enough to form
a major use case.



From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Fri Aug  6 15:31:46 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:31:46 -0400
Subject: threads: not locking read-only objects
In-Reply-To: <2ni4b4F16u92U1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <2ni4b4F16u92U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061528230.25906-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>

On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Jon Perez wrote:

> Is it safe to not put a lock on an object if it will always
> be read-only in other threads and will only ever be written to
> in just one and always the same one thread?

Only if the writes are guaranteed to be atomic: if the object is ever 
temporarily left in an inconsistent state by the writer (due to a thread 
switch), the readers will read inconsistent data.  If you are sure this 
can't happen, then yes, doing so is safe.



From AntiVir at yalta.us  Thu Aug 12 09:54:24 2004
From: AntiVir at yalta.us (AntiVir at yalta.us)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:54:24 +0300
Subject: AntiVir ALERT [mail from: contact@bestsex.ru]
Message-ID: <200408121354.i7CDsOWj007322@yalta.us>

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * AntiVir ALERT * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
????????? ????????? ????? ? ??????????????, ??????? ????????? ????? ??????!

???????????: contact at bestsex.ru
???????? ??????: Worm/Mydoom.m	

????? ?? ???? ?????????? ??????????.

? ?????????;
        ???????? ????????
 ???.: +38(0654)271828
????.: +38(0654)231094
  web: www.yaltainfo.com
email: support at yalta.us


Mail-Info:
--8<--
 From: contact at bestsex.ru
 To: python-list at python.org
 Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:52:52 +0300
 Subject: MAIL SYSTEM ERROR - RETURNED MAIL
--8<--

This version of AntiVir is licensed for private and non-commercial use.

--
AntiVir for UNIX
Copyright (C) 1994-2003 by H+BEDV Datentechnik GmbH. All rights reserved.
For more information see http://www.antivir.de/ or http://www.hbedv.com/


From miki.tebeka at zoran.com  Mon Aug 16 13:49:03 2004
From: miki.tebeka at zoran.com (Miki Tebeka)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:49:03 +0200
Subject: Help with reading WinXP registry
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAA48bIjzpX0xGAzADAT0HvxsKAAAAQAAAAVqfhDgP4E0qTmcIwnJq3yQEAAAAA@TheFlorys.org>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAA48bIjzpX0xGAzADAT0HvxsKAAAAQAAAAVqfhDgP4E0qTmcIwnJq3yQEAAAAA@TheFlorys.org>
Message-ID: <20040816174903.GK4072@zoran.com>

Hello David,

> Is there a better way to access the registry in a Win32 system?
Try the _winreg module with the ...Ex functions.

HTH.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Miki Tebeka <miki.tebeka at zoran.com>
http://tebeka.spymac.net
The only difference between children and adults is the price of the toys


From tim.hochberg at ieee.org  Fri Aug 20 19:12:30 2004
From: tim.hochberg at ieee.org (Tim Hochberg)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:12:30 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <5_uVc.411$MR2.2033@news1.mts.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl>	<ZFoVc.360$MR2.1503@news1.mts.net>	<mailman.2058.1093016284.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<5_uVc.411$MR2.2033@news1.mts.net>
Message-ID: <cg60h6$4iq$1@sea.gmane.org>

Reid Nichol wrote:
> Tim Hochberg wrote:

[SNIP]

>> While quanta are typically very-very-very small, last I checked the 
>> key feature of quantum transitions is not that they're small, but that 
>> there are no intermediate steps. The object is in state A then it's in 
>> state B, but it's never halfway (or anywhere) between. Like most 
>> quantum stuff it's better not to think about that too closely.
>>
>> -tim
>>
> 
> Check the definition of the word.

May I ask why? I assume you mean this (from another post):

> from dictionary.reference.com:
> The smallest amount of a physical quantity that can exist 
> independently, especially a discrete quantity of electromagnetic 
 > radiation.

I fail to see a signifigant conflict between this definition of quantum 
and what I wrote above about quantum transitions. I'll even go out on a 
limb and speculate that the origin of the term "quantum leap" is with 
quantum, probably atomic, transitions and refers to a change where there 
are no intermediate states and not "The smallest possible leap that can 
exist".

[checks]

You might look at this, also from dictionary.reference.com:

quantum leap

A dramatic advance, especially in knowledge or method, as in 
Establishing a central bank represents a quantum leap in this small 
country's development. This term originated as quantum jump in the 
mid-1900s in physics, where it denotes a sudden change from one energy 
state to another within an atom. Within a decade it was transferred to 
other advances, not necessarily sudden but very important ones.

-tim







From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug  9 14:13:20 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:13:20 -0400
Subject: What are decorators?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1404.1092073971.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1404.1092073971.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <gL-dnTtWgd9fI4rcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>

gohaku wrote:

> The discussion on Python Decorators and "@" has piqued my interest on this
> "feature?" in programming languages such as Python and Java.
> can anybody what is the point in using Decorators?

In Python, at least, they seem to be syntactic sugar for the following,
as the PEP clearly shows:

def func():
     pass

func = decorator(func)


That is equivalent to this with the new proposed syntax (and this is
no doubt out of date because I wrote it more than two minutes ago):

@decorator
def func():
     pass


In other words, they are simply a function that takes a function
and does something to or with it, returning a new function, or
perhaps the old one, when it's done.

The original use cases seem to have been staticmethod and classmethod.
Python doesn't have special syntax for defining these, as for
example Java does, so the idiom shown first above was developed,
along with a staticmethod() or classmethod() "decorator" function
which would modify the original non-static method so that it was
now a static method.

The folks using this decided they didn't like the fact that the
modification came *after* the function definition, since it could
be hard to notice it, and probably they didn't really like the
feel of the whole thing, since it's sort of hackish and inelegant.

If you don't need staticmethod (and the answer to the question
"do I need staticmethod?" is "no"), then you don't really need
decorators. :-)

-Peter


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug  6 08:08:12 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 08:08:12 -0400
Subject: tweaking @decorator syntax - yet another syntax
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1260.1091774627.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <b03e80d.0408040809.66c50ecf@posting.google.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408041328420.13532-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu>	<b03e80d.0408050041.1723eb3c@posting.google.com>	<1091715445.9931.17.camel@mango.cmc.ec.gc.ca>
	<mailman.1260.1091774627.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <8umdnWTWJtQw6Y7cRVn-uw@powergate.ca>

Stefan Eischet wrote:

> I don't know if this particular syntax has been discussed already... 
> please feel free to bash me if it was. ;-)

Bash bash.

> How about using "is" after the def?

Read the PEP.  Basically the same as the "as" variant.


From thomas at it-snedkeren.BLACK_HOLE.dk  Tue Aug 10 10:57:39 2004
From: thomas at it-snedkeren.BLACK_HOLE.dk (Thomas Lindgaard)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:57:39 +0200
Subject: Komodo, debugging and multi-threading
References: <pan.2004.08.09.10.29.50.984382@it-snedkeren.BLACK_HOLE.dk>
	<9418be08.0408090542.37e9113@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.10.14.57.39.111540@it-snedkeren.BLACK_HOLE.dk>

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 06:42:59 -0700, Elbert Lev wrote:

> The only way of debugging multithreaded programs - print (or log).

Dang! ... but thanks.

-- 
Regards
/Thomas



From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Sun Aug 22 20:45:51 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 00:45:51 GMT
Subject: Python is to C as letters are to words.
References: <b14bfabe.0408221055.4f2dc1e7@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.2164.1093201904.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<z59Wc.9049$Jn5.7516@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<n5bii0ho3p5iqon1pe4k06ebvt8rfk7kif@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <37bWc.9076$Jn5.4795@fe1.texas.rr.com>

"Rene Pijlman" <reply.in.the.newsgroup at my.address.is.invalid> wrote in
message news:n5bii0ho3p5iqon1pe4k06ebvt8rfk7kif at 4ax.com...
> Paul McGuire:
> >Maybe Gary meant "letters" like when I write a letter to my wife,
>
> Do you think he meant performance? How often do you write letters to your
> wife, and how long does it take you?
>
> -- 
> Ren? Pijlman

Let's leave "performance" out of this!!  :)

-- Paul




From chris.cavalaria at free.fr  Wed Aug 25 18:33:31 2004
From: chris.cavalaria at free.fr (Christophe Cavalaria)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:33:31 +0200
Subject: PEP318: radical notion
References: <Xns954E72EC48C5Earienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>
	<412a4222$0$293$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<d3247b7a.0408241413.55b34cb2@posting.google.com>
	<412bc7e6$0$4065$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<Xns954FB1DEE3C6arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>
Message-ID: <412d13bc$0$14159$636a15ce@news.free.fr>

Arien Malec wrote:

> Christophe Cavalaria <chris.cavalaria at free.fr> wrote in
> news:412bc7e6$0$4065$626a14ce at news.free.fr:
> 
>> Arien Malec wrote:
> 
>>> Is there a valid use case that supports arbitrary magical
>>> non-metadata transformations of standalone functions?
>> 
>> memoize for example. No metadata, only transformation, doesn't really
>> apply to a member function in fact ( although it might be possible ?
> 
> Classically, memoize is implemented as function composition, or as a true
> GoF decorator. It's not clear (to me, at least) how much benefit the
> syntactic sugar gets you.

Ease of writing and reading aren't benefits for you ?

>> Why is it that there are always some people who doesn't understand all
>> the possibilities of decorators and so want to minimise their
>> usefulness ?
> 
> I dunno. Who are those people? My objection to PEP318 is that makes
> something that's really powerful (arbitrary transformation) look like a
> trivial declaration.

If that's your objection, say it. I'm ok with that. But don't do that :

people : we need generators for usage a, b, c
you : here is a great syntax. It handles case a and b in such a beautiful
way and it's much much better that some other proposal
people : what about case c ?
you : case what ?

> In Common Lisp, for instance, a defmacro form hints 
> that powerful mojo is being performed; the same is not apparent in
> PEP318.

Well, if the @pie form isn't a clear way to say that something strange is
going on, I don't know what is :)



From indigo at bitglue.com  Wed Aug 18 15:27:50 2004
From: indigo at bitglue.com (Phil Frost)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:27:50 -0400
Subject: Embedding Python in Python
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.18.19.56.03.842836@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
References: <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
	<mailman.1890.1092854122.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<pan.2004.08.18.19.56.03.842836@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
Message-ID: <20040818192750.GA30372@unununium.org>

No. An easy way to escape that is to start one's code with
'del __builtins__', then python will add the default __builtins__ back
to the namespace. Restricting what arbitrary code can do has been
discussed many, many times, and it seems there is no way to do it short
of reimplementing a python interpretor.

On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 02:56:04PM -0500, Robey Holderith wrote:
> So using this (with a little additional reading) it looks like I
> can do this:
> 
> globalDict = {'__builtins__': <my modules here>}
> exec(<pythonCodeFromUser>, globalDict)
> 
> And that this will disallow both importing of new modules and direct
> access to my namespace.  It will however allow access to the
> 
> Would this be secure?
> 
> Paul, what's your take on this?
> 
> -Robey
>
> On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:35:21 -0400, Phil Frost wrote:
> 
> > You probably want something like this:
> > 
> > globalDict = {}
> > exec(stringOfPythonCodeFromUser, globalDict)
> > 
> > globalDict is now the global namespace of whatever was in
> > stringOfPythonCodeFromUser, so you can grab values from that and
> > selectivly import them into your namespace.
> > 
> > On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 02:26:00PM -0500, Robey Holderith wrote:
> >> 
> >> Anyone know a good way to embed python within python?
> >> 
> >> Now before you tell me that's silly, let me explain
> >> what I'd like to do.
> >> 
> >> I'd like to allow user-defined scriptable objects.  I'd
> >> like to give them access to modify pieces of my classes.
> >> I'd like to disallow access to pretty much the rest of
> >> the modules.
> >> 
> >> Any ideas/examples?
> >> 
> >> -Robey


From ole_jensen  Mon Aug 30 09:42:55 2004
From: ole_jensen (Ole Jensen)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 15:42:55 +0200
Subject: Top Zope sites?
References: <ZNydnRyJtbf87K_cRVn-tw@adelphia.com>
Message-ID: <41332edb$0$214$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>


"Robert Oschler"
> Hello,
>
> Can someone give me the URL's of 2 or 3 top-notch sites built upon
> Zope, so I can see what it's really all about?

Its right on the Zope.org page: http://www.zope.org/Resources/ZopePowered/

 Is it a phpNuke type thing?
> How popular is it?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>




From caleb1 at telkomsa.net  Tue Aug 24 22:56:20 2004
From: caleb1 at telkomsa.net (Caleb Hattingh)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 22:56:20 -0400
Subject: Macro expansion: intercept statement interpretation
Message-ID: <opsc9o36ze1js0xs@news.telkomsa.net>

Hi

Here is a script I want to be able to write (explanation appears after):

*** start of script ***

import MyCustomMacroLib	 # This does the magic I would like help for.

# This is not python, but the module imported above
# will use this block internally and prevent it
# getting to the interpreter.
defmacro MyMacro1:
   form = """for <#1> := <#2> to <#3> do begin
               <#4multiline>
             end"""
   subsituteWith = """for <#1> in range(<#2>,<#3>+1):
                        <#4multiline>"""

for i := 0 to 3 do begin # This is not python syntax, but the module
   print i                # imported above makes it so that this
   print 'hello'          # is first checked against defined macros
end                      # and substitutions are made if syntax
                          # matches
""" Should give:
0
hello
1
hello
2
hello
3
hello
"""

*** end of script ***

I want the module "MyCustomMacroLib" to set up something where I can have  
write code that checks each of the statements of this script, and does  
macro expansion before passing the result to the python interpreter.

When the (undefined in python) "defmacro" statement is encountered, the  
module sets this up in memory as some kind of "macro" object, and as the  
remainder of the lines is parsed, a syntax check is made to see if a macro  
fits, and if so the expansion is performed and the result is passed to the  
interpreter/compiler.

This particular (useless) example sets up a macro where loops can be  
written in objectpascal form.  I actually have no particular need for this  
kind of functionality (I think?), but it looks cool!.  I got interested  
after reading a couple of Paul Grahams essays about lisp.  I also suspect  
there actually may be some real problem domains where extending the  
language syntax may be beneficial - I just cannot think of any right now :)

I can figure out the minor practical details of things like handling  
indention, code objects and the like myself, but I don't know where to  
start to try and intercept statements before they get to the interpreter.   
Some of the docs I read today appear to indicate that there may also be  
differences in the way interactive interpreter and command-line execution  
deal with statements.  I am lost in the python internals!

Note that I could easily write a script that takes another script as an  
argument, preprocesses it, and evaluates the resulting list of python  
statments.  I do however, prefer a drop-in module as shown above.  Plus, I  
would also like to do this dynamically in the interpreter.

Any ideas, or is this impossible? (gratuitous guru-bait)

Thanks
Caleb



From usenet_spam at janc.invalid  Wed Aug 18 18:29:57 2004
From: usenet_spam at janc.invalid (JanC)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 22:29:57 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <mailman.1859.1092833285.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<889cbba0.0408181206.1812881c@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1900.1092860258.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Xns954A5141FF84JanC@213.118.38.197>

Gerardo Herzig -Departamento de Proyectos Especiales e Internet- Facultad 
de Medicina schreef:

> 30 years old. First program at 11 (Basic) on ZX Spectrum.

/me too (now 30 & started with ZX Spectrum Basic at 11)

-- 
JanC

"Be strict when sending and tolerant when receiving."
RFC 1958 - Architectural Principles of the Internet - section 3.9


From follower at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 12:13:33 2004
From: follower at gmail.com (Follower)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 09:13:33 -0700
Subject: ANN: Python Decrypt PDF script -- builds on pdftools
Message-ID: <mailman.1868.1092839116.5135.python-announce-list@python.org>

Hi,

I wanted to extract the meta-data from an encrypted/protected PDF file
and could not find any Python scripts to do this. So, I decided to
write something myself, the result follows.

This demonstration utility requires the `pdftools` files from
<http://www.boddie.org.uk/david/Projects/Python/pdftools/> but the
decryption functions themselves should be usable with other Python PDF
libraries.

Documentation is marginal and all I can say is that worked on the
three PDF files I tested it on... :-)

--Phil.

P.S. The usual Usenet-mangling warning applies--yeah, I know--I should
put it up on a web site somewhere... :-)

#!/usr/bin/python
#
# Decrypt PDF Info
#
# Decrypts PDF files and displays meta-data associated with them. (If
the
# file isn't encrypted the information is displayed as is.)
#
# The results are similar to xpdf's `pdfinfo` utility.
#
# It should be possible to decrypt all of the objects contained
# in the PDF, but this only reads the Document Information Dictionary.
#
# (Note: All the PDF handling is provided by `pdftools`, this just
adds
#        the ability to deal with encrypted PDF files.)
#
# Requires:
#   + pdftools
#     <http://www.boddie.org.uk/david/Projects/Python/pdftools/>
#
# Based on:
#   + `pdfdecrypt.pl`
#     <http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Adobe/Gallery/pdfdecrypt.pl>
[PDFPL]
#
# Incorporates:
#   + RC4 from CipherSaber implementation by Ka-Ping Yee
<ping at lfw.org>
#     <http://www.xs4all.nl/~cg/ciphersaber/comp/python.txt>
#
# References:
#   + <http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Adobe/Gallery/anon21jul01-pdf-encryption.txt>
[PDFE]
#
# Author:
#   follower at myrealbox.com (Standing on *many* shoulders...)
#
import sys
import md5
import struct

from pdftools import PDFdocument

def arcfour(input, key):
    """
    Perform the ARCFOUR (RC4) algorithm on a given input list of bytes
with
    a key given as a list of bytes, and return the output as a list of
    bytes.

    (From CipherSaber implementation by Ka-Ping Yee <ping at lfw.org>
     <http://www.xs4all.nl/~cg/ciphersaber/comp/python.txt>)
    """
    i, j, state = 0, 0, range(256)
    for i in range(256):
        j = (j + state[i] + key[i % len(key)]) % 256
        state[i], state[j] = state[j], state[i]
    i, j, output = 0, 0, []
    for byte in input:
        i = (i + 1) % 256
        j = (j + state[i]) % 256
        state[i], state[j] = state[j], state[i]
        n = (state[i] + state[j]) % 256
        output.append(byte ^ state[n])
    return output


_passwordPad = [
  0x28, 0xbf, 0x4e, 0x5e, 0x4e, 0x75, 0x8a, 0x41,
  0x64, 0x00, 0x4e, 0x56, 0xff, 0xfa, 0x01, 0x08, 
  0x2e, 0x2e, 0x00, 0xb6, 0xd0, 0x68, 0x3e, 0x80, 
  0x2f, 0x0c, 0xa9, 0xfe, 0x64, 0x53, 0x69, 0x7a]

passwordPad = "".join([chr(b) for b in _passwordPad])

def calculateFileKey(fileId, ownerHash, userHash, permissions,
                     userPassword = ""):
    """
    Calculates the file key for the document as described in
references
    (see [PDFE] and [PDFPL]).    
    """
    md = md5.new()
    md.update((userPassword + passwordPad)[:32])
    md.update(ownerHash)
    md.update(struct.pack("<L", permissions))
    md.update(fileId)

    fileKey = md.digest()[:5]

    return fileKey    


def calculateObjectKey(fileKey, objectNumber, generationNumber):
    """
    Calculates the key for the object as described in references
    (see [PDFE] and [PDFPL]).    
    """
    md = md5.new()
    md.update(fileKey)
    md.update(struct.pack("<L", objectNumber)[:3])
    md.update(struct.pack("<L", generationNumber)[:2])
    objectKey = md.digest()[:10]

    return objectKey    


class NotEncryptedException(Exception):
    """
    The supplied PDF document is not encrypted.
    """


KEY_OWNER_HASH = 'O'
KEY_USER_HASH = 'U'
KEY_PERMISSIONS = 'P'

def getFileKey(doc, userPassword = ""):
    """
    Extracts the information required to calculate the file key
    from the supplied PDF document.

    In most cases `userPassword` can be left empty.   
    """
    fileId = doc.trailer_dict['ID'][0] # Is the ID always repeated?

    try:
        encryptDict = doc.dereference(doc.trailer_dict['Encrypt'])
    except KeyError:
        raise NotEncryptedException
    # TODO: Check encryption version is ok. (filter/standard/v/1/r/2)

    ownerHash = encryptDict[KEY_OWNER_HASH]
    userHash = encryptDict[KEY_USER_HASH]
    # `permissions` should be "four-byte integer, LSB first."
    permissions = encryptDict[KEY_PERMISSIONS] 
    
    fileKey = calculateFileKey(fileId, ownerHash, userHash,
permissions,
                               userPassword)

    # Sanity check user password
    assert(decrypt(userHash, fileKey) == passwordPad)

    return fileKey    


def decrypt(text, key):
    """
    Decrypts the supplied object (as a string) with the supplied key.

    Returns "plain text" form of object as a string.
    """
    return "".join([chr(b)
                    for b in arcfour(map(ord, text), map(ord, key))])
    

def showDocumentInfo(doc, fileKey):
    """
    Displays the content of the (optionally encrypted) Document
Information
    Dictionary for the supplied PDF document.
    """
    infoDictRef = doc.trailer_dict['Info']
    objectNumber = infoDictRef.obj
    generationNumber = infoDictRef.gen

    infoDict = doc.dereference(infoDictRef)

    objectKey = calculateObjectKey(fileKey, objectNumber,
generationNumber)

    for field, encryptedValue in infoDict.iteritems():
        if fileKey:
            value = decrypt(encryptedValue, objectKey)
        else:
            value = encryptedValue
        print "%s: %s" % (field, value)
    

if __name__ == "__main__":
    try:
        filename = sys.argv[1]
    except IndexError:
        raise SystemExit("Usage %s <filename.pdf>" % sys.argv[0])
    
    doc = PDFdocument(filename)

    try:
        fileKey = getFileKey(doc)
    except NotEncryptedException:
        fileKey = ""

    showDocumentInfo(doc, fileKey)


From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Tue Aug 31 14:45:05 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:45:05 -0700
Subject: "Content-Length" header
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408311952580.1193-100000@kleigh.nl>
References: <ch07ui$edo@odbk17.prod.google.com>
	<96c2e938.0408302057.61df147b@posting.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.31.13.04.27.995780@jerf.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408311952580.1193-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <10j9hmqq3gn8i43@corp.supernews.com>

Peter Kleiweg wrote:

>Jeremy Bowers schreef:
>
>  
>
>>Both cases: 52 ^ 8: 53,459,728,531,456 (53 trillion)
>>    
>>
>
>A bit less: 53 billion
>
>  
>
>>One case  : 26 ^ 8: 208,827,064,576 (208 billion)
>>    
>>
>
>208 billiard
>  
>

Note that Jeremy Bowers' usage is standard American usage (billion = 
10^9, trillion = 10^12).  This is a difference between American English 
and British-style English.  (I would presume, though I don't know 
directly, that Australia and New Zealand probably use the British 
style...)  In America, "billiard" is only a funny variant on playing 
pool. ;)

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From skip at pobox.com  Wed Aug 18 10:36:09 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:36:09 -0500
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408180937570.32166-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408180937570.32166-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <16675.26969.76427.714215@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Christopher> I'm 19.  The only other Python programmer I know personally
    Christopher> is 21.  Congrats on discovering Python at 14; back then I
    Christopher> thought VB was a godsend. ;)

Whippersnapper...  At 14 I would have thought a computer was a godsend. ;-)

(I'm 50, btw.)

Skip


From ramen at lackingtalent.com  Fri Aug 27 14:57:20 2004
From: ramen at lackingtalent.com (Dave Benjamin)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:57:20 -0000
Subject: Alex Martelli: Welcome back!
References: <mailman.2534.1093623236.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj70sk.1o4cuwepco564N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <slrnciv1ve.t6n.ramen@lackingtalent.com>

In article <1gj70sk.1o4cuwepco564N%aleaxit at yahoo.com>, Alex Martelli wrote:
> Batista, Facundo <FBatista at uniFON.com.ar> wrote:
> 
>> [Dave Benjamin]
>> 
>> #- Asunto: Alex Martelli: Welcome back!
>> #- 
>> #- It's nice to see you around here again!
>> 
>> +1
> 
> Heh, thanks.  BTW, anybody interested in the readings we choose for our
> marriage (me and Anna, who's also going to be my coeditor for the Python
> Cookbook Second Edition) can have a look at http://www.aleax.it/mar.html

Congratulations! May you give new meaning to "pair programming". =)

> ... Pythonistas will find one of the poems, ahem, interesting.  (Some
> photos are at http://bonanna.multiply.com/photos/album/1 , but
> mentioning them would be OT, since they're not Python-related;-).

Yes, but Sir Peters omitted an important detail; is it:

  Over the toilet paper roll is better than under
  
Or is it the opposite? When in the face of ambiguity...

-- 
 .:[ dave benjamin: ramen/[sp00] -:- spoomusic.com -:- ramenfest.com ]:.
        "talking about music is like dancing about architecture."


From pinard at iro.umontreal.ca  Sat Aug 28 08:18:23 2004
From: pinard at iro.umontreal.ca (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois?= Pinard)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 08:18:23 -0400
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
Message-ID: <20040828121823.GA3983@titan.progiciels-bpi.ca>

[Robert Brewer]

> > I'll continue to collect them [...]

I carefully reread the proposal, and definitely, count me as:

    FOR

-- 
Fran?ois Pinard   http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard


From insert at spam.here  Mon Aug  9 18:10:00 2004
From: insert at spam.here (Doug Holton)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 17:10:00 -0500
Subject: Python Decorators Voting Form
Message-ID: <zqydnen0Cf-ka4rcRVn-jQ@comcast.com>

Here is a voting form where you can vote between 3 of the most popular 
alternatives for the new Python decorator syntax:
http://wiki.wxpython.org/index.cgi/PythonDecoratorsPoll

Please vote for which one you prefer the most, and feel free to leave 
your comments as well.  This is just to allow us to count up everyone's 
preferences and maybe help narrow down the alternatives to only 1 or 2 
like Guido wants.

I know it's not fair to only show 3 options, but these 3 appear to have 
the most number of different people supporting them based on mailing 
list traffic.  If you like one option but want a different symbol (like 
"|") or an additional keyword (like "using"), you can vote for it anyway 
and leave your comment.


From jtauber at jtauber.com  Mon Aug 16 15:45:17 2004
From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 03:45:17 +0800
Subject: passing globals to imported module
In-Reply-To: <18e7v1-o68.ln1@valpo.de>
References: <mailman.1756.1092682856.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<18e7v1-o68.ln1@valpo.de>
Message-ID: <1092685517.18905.202442161@webmail.messagingengine.com>


On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:24:16 +0200, "Mathias Waack" <M.Waack at gmx.de>
said:
> If you need the global _after_ the import you can just add in foo.py: 
> 
>   bar.my_global = my_global
> 
> Another solution would be to use a better design;)

Well, changing the design was my first thought too :-)

I just wondered whether there was a way to set the globals for the
import module *before* top level code in the improted module is
executed. I'm unclear what the second arg to __import__ actually
affects.

James
-- 
  James Tauber               http://jtauber.com/
  journeyman of some    http://jtauber.com/blog/



From and-google at doxdesk.com  Sun Aug 15 05:30:22 2004
From: and-google at doxdesk.com (Andrew Clover)
Date: 15 Aug 2004 02:30:22 -0700
Subject: xml attributes question
References: <mailman.1665.1092536770.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2c60a528.0408150130.5bc3c1b2@posting.google.com>

Ajay <abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au> wrote:

> attribs.keys()

> [(None, u'ref')]

> why?

Namespace-aware DOM implementations index attributes by the localName
*and* their namespaceURI. The 'ref' attribute isn't in a namespace
(signified by 'None') so this should be part of the key to support eg.
getAttributeNS efficiently.

Don't rely on the Python-style dictionary methods like keys() when you
are handling a NamedNodeMap. The Python DOM bindings do not guarantee
that it exists, or what it returns if it does. 4DOM behaves
differently to minidom as you can see; other implementations are
different again. Further, the results of keys(), values() and items()
are inconsistent even within single implementations.

Sticking to the standard DOM methods, one could say:

  keys= [attribs.item(i).name for i in range(attribs.length)]

-- 
Andrew Clover
mailto:and at doxdesk.com
http://www.doxdesk.com/


From imbosol at aerojockey.invalid  Thu Aug 12 04:31:58 2004
From: imbosol at aerojockey.invalid (Carl Banks)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:31:58 GMT
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
	<60dfb6f6.0408111846.615ee9eb@posting.google.com>
	<3YWdnYxLf--ObofcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <2WFSc.12148$Nl1.3243@fe1.columbus.rr.com>

Peter Hansen wrote:
> 
> 
> Carl Banks wrote:
> 
>> steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard) wrote in message news:<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8 at posting.google.com>...
>> 
>>>I know there were complaints before about this sort of indentation,
>>>but I couldn't find them in python-dev and the comments in the wiki
>>>don't discuss this in any detail.  Can anyone tell me why this
>>>indentation syntax was dispreferred?  Specifically, I'm interested in
>>>why this is so drastically different from the other paired blocks:
>>>if/elif/else, try/except, try/finally, etc. 
>> 
>> One thing that's different is that, in all those cases, the second
>> block has a keyword that can't appear alone.  You can't have an except
>> without a try, or an else without an if, but you could have a def
>> without a decorate.
> 
> Is this merely a pedantic argument (not sure I use "pedantic" correctly)
> or is this an argument based on presumed difficulties in implementing
> the idea?

Pedantic.


> I ask because I'm not sure the issue matters to anyone writing
> or reading the code.  It certainly wouldn't bother me that
> with if/else it's the first part that's required, while with
> decorate/def it's the second part.

Well, the only thing is, whenever you see a def statement, you don't
know if it's decorated right away, so you have to expend one or two
extra ergs of energy to look above it and see if it is.  (And let's
face it, with the dozens and dozens of decorators that will be applied
to each and every function, it might be a couple screens up. :)

To me, it's totally irrelevant.

I think it would bother some other people, though.  I've seen the very
same argument used against a do...while statement.  (The do...while
statement didn't bother me either, although ideally I'd prefer do to
replace try in try...finally.)


-- 
CARL BANKS                      http://www.aerojockey.com/software
"If you believe in yourself, drink your school, stay on drugs, and
don't do milk, you can get work." 
          -- Parody of Mr. T from a Robert Smigel Cartoon


From pythongnome at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 17 19:44:42 2004
From: pythongnome at hotmail.com (Lucas Raab)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 23:44:42 GMT
Subject: Flython
References: <slrnchq8lg.q3d.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
	<LIqdndvJz9MDoL3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<slrnci53hk.4hm.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
Message-ID: <KLwUc.25065$nx2.17@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>

Oh, Oh, it's magic!! You know!!!...

"Dave Benjamin" <ramen at lackingtalent.com> wrote in message
news:slrnci53hk.4hm.ramen at lackingtalent.com...
> In article <LIqdndvJz9MDoL3cRVn-og at powergate.ca>, Peter Hansen wrote:
> > Dave Benjamin wrote:
> >
> >> I just want to say, for the record, that if anyone can successfully
build a
> >> Python compiler that can produce Flash bytecode, I will personally
allow
> >> you to throw *any number of pies* in my face, in as public of a
ceremony as
> >> you desire. Furthermore, I will match you 50/50 in the cost of the
pies.
> >
> > Why on earth (unless it's the liking pies thing or the really wanting
> > this to be done thing) would you say that?  Flash bytecode is pretty
> > straightforward, and Python's not magic.
>
> Because getting a pie (or twelve) in the face is a lot less work than
> actually writing a parser and code generator. I have been writing
> ActionScript for two years now, and I am so sick and tired of its lack of
> useful data structures (like sets and dictionaries), god-awful
> error-checking (any bad message results in the "undefined" value, which
> accpets any message and returns the "undefined" value, and so on, until
your
> error surfaces someplace completely different from where it was caused),
> lack of exceptions, lack of any standard for modularity... I could just go
> on and on. I'm currently maintaining a 10,000 line ActionScript program,
and
> I would be so happy to rewrite it in Python right now.
>
> And Python *is* magic. =)
>
> > In any case, if this is a serious challenge, you'd better start
> > identifying the constraints and minimum requirements, as I'm
> > rather positive that it's possible to encode at least *one*
> > Python statement (print) into Flash bytecode which would
> > execute properly...  shall I demonstrate for, say, one pie?
>
> Good point. I expect at least the full syntax as of Python 2.1, which
means
> list comps but no "yield" or metaclasses or any fancy stuff like that.
> Perhaps one pie per Bagley's Shootout example, or maybe one pie per fully
> exposed Flash API (MovieClip, LocalConnection, etc.). I'm open to
> negotiation.
>
> But the irony here is that the amount of work that would go into a Python
> port to SWF would be far greater than the amount of suffering I would
endure
> from a bunch of pies in the face. It's really on my side, because you do
all
> the work, and then I don't have to write ActionScript anymore. =)
>
> Best wishes,
> Dave
>
> -- 
>  .:[ dave benjamin: ramen/[sp00] -:- spoomusic.com -:- ramenfest.com ]:.
>         "talking about music is like dancing about architecture."




From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Wed Aug  4 23:44:32 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Thu,  5 Aug 2004 13:44:32 +1000
Subject: cgi script headers - help
In-Reply-To: <38ednYf1NLxPP4zcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
References: <mailman.1176.1091673487.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<38ednYf1NLxPP4zcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <1091677472.4111ad20660e4@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

thanks...that was it

--
Ajay Brar,
CS Honours 2004
Smart Internet Technology Research Group


Quoting Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com>:

> Ajay wrote:
>
> > hi!
> >
> > i am generating a file on the fly and making a user download it.
> > print "Content-Type: application/model\n\n"
> > print "Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=modeldef3\n"
> > print str
> >
> > i set the Content-Disposition to force a download dialog box and also
> give
> > the file a name.
> > however when i view the headers sent by my script, i have only
> > HTTP/1.1 200 OK
> > Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 02:26:48 GMT
> > Server: Apache/1.3.19 (Unix)
> > Connection: close
> > Content-Type: application/model
> >
> > why isn't the Content-Disposition header coming up?
>
> Probably because the previous line was terminated with three (3)
> newlines, thus marking the end of the header section...
>
> Note that print includes a newline normally, so including any
> other newlines will result in at least a double newline, which
> is the delimiter between header and body.
>
> -Peter
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From R.Brodie at rl.ac.uk  Mon Aug  9 12:19:04 2004
From: R.Brodie at rl.ac.uk (Richard Brodie)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 17:19:04 +0100
Subject: how many bytes in an int
References: <9ACRc.1523$bJ2.9739@news1.mts.net>
	<4116f8ee$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<FADRc.1532$bJ2.9871@news1.mts.net>
	<41170cd1$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<41171116$0$8079$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<41172C9A.2020301@jessikat.fsnet.co.uk>
	<41178bde$0$8077$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<cf83i7$182c@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>
	<41179cd2$0$8089$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <cf885p$im4@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>


"Grant Edwards" <grante at visi.com> wrote in message
news:41179cd2$0$8089$a1866201 at newsreader.visi.com...

>By guessing formats and calculating sizes? Or is there a way to
>ask for an N-byte integer that I missed?

If you use '<' or '>' to force endianness you automatically get 'standard'
sizes thrown in; or you can use '=' for native order. The standard sizes are
specified in the struct module documentation.







From dontreply at caramail.com  Mon Aug  2 13:47:14 2004
From: dontreply at caramail.com (Cyrille Lavigne)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 10:47:14 -0700
Subject: Concerning classes (Newb question)
Message-ID: <6c8fb5be.0408020947.67ef58e@posting.google.com>

Hi!
I'm very new to the art of programming and I just learn OOP
in python. I want to know why the following bit of code crash.
Code:
class Exemple:
	def __init__(self):
		self.list=[]
		self.var1=3

c=Exemple
print c.list, c.var1

Thanks


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Fri Aug 20 10:09:02 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:09:02 GMT
Subject: Decorator keyword options
References: <7knVc.4599$Jn5.3074@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<cg509s$40m$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
Message-ID: <2CnVc.4606$Jn5.4384@fe1.texas.rr.com>

"David Fraser" <davidf at sjsoft.com> wrote in message
news:cg509s$40m$1 at ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> Good plan. If anyone likes "wrap" they could add it to the Wiki with
> something akin to the description of transform
>
> David
David -

I encourage you to do this for yourself, if you have time.  I think this is
exactly the kind of thing Wiki was intended for - we are all empowered to
include items on that list.

(If you do not see the "EditPage" option at the bottom of the page, select
the "Preferences" item on the left-side menu and enter your info.  Once this
is done, you should be able to edit pages.)

-- Paul




From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug  6 09:52:20 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 09:52:20 -0400
Subject: Unicode support
In-Reply-To: <cf0205$q41@odak26.prod.google.com>
References: <cf0205$q41@odak26.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <eO2dncMsfuGIEI7cRVn-jA@powergate.ca>

Richy2004 wrote:

> I've experienced problems when trying to load a text file encoded with
> 2byte unicode characters.  No matter what combination of the following
> I try, I always get an error when
> executing file.readline()
> 
> file = open("file.txt", "r")
> file = open("file.txt", "rb")
> file = codecs.open("file.txt", "rb", "utf-16")
> file = unicode(open("file.txt", "r"), "utf-16")
> 
> Even more strangely it does work when used in the interactive
> interpreter.
> 
> Any ideas?

Always post the actual traceback (cut and pasted from another window)
when saying you are getting an error.  That avoids lots of guessing
on our part as to what is going on.

-Peter


From me at privacy.net  Thu Aug 19 10:58:34 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Richard Hanson)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:58:34 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <36f9i0tfu2agseuo052dfhm29lbai6lt28@4ax.com>

Lucas Raab wrote:

> [...] what is the average age of a Python programmer?? [...]

Datapoint: 53

I'm fifty-three-years-old. Started programming in 1968 on IBM
mainframes using FORTRAN IV -- and now I'm here, retired, and
hanging out in this Python newsgroup... 

but-it-seems-like-*so*-many-more-years'ly y'rs,
Richard

-- 
R Hanson [The mangled email addie below works.]
sick<P0INT>ole<PERI0D>fart<PIE_DEC0_SYNTAX>newsguy<MARK>com


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Mon Aug  9 00:39:38 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 21:39:38 -0700
Subject: Python source colorizer
References: <18282ecb.0408081820.585a0f9c@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1092026780.723719@news.commspeed.net>


"M.E.Farmer" <mefjr75 at hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:18282ecb.0408081820.585a0f9c at posting.google.com...
> Hello c.l.py!,
>     I have just finished this and decided to share.
> PySourceColor is a module to convert Python source into colored html.
> Yes it has been done before, but I like this better:)
> You can easily define your own colorscheme.
> example usage:
>    # Highlight PySourceColor.py
>    python PySourceColor.py
>      or
>    # Show help
>    python PySourceColor.py -h
>
> [code]

Sweet,

Tom




From gerrit.muller at embeddedsystems.nl  Fri Aug 20 04:51:00 2004
From: gerrit.muller at embeddedsystems.nl (Gerrit Muller)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:51:00 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <cg4e1l$ie6$1@news.tue.nl>

I miss the option to _not_introduce decorators at all, at least at this 
moment. Reading the discussion and all different proposals, it is 
entirely clear for me that we don't know at the moment what the exact 
goal is that we desire. Despite the lack of goal we shoot all kinds of 
complicating and poorly readable options into the air. Be aware: once 
something is introduceed you will not be able to remove it again. 
Introduction is relatively easy, removal is nearly impossible.

In absence of my real vote (delay, delay, do nothing), I vote:
F F A1

regards, Gerrit

-- 
Gaudi systems architecting:
<http://www.extra.research.philips.com/natlab/sysarch/>



From apardon at forel.vub.ac.be  Tue Aug 31 10:59:07 2004
From: apardon at forel.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 14:59:07 GMT
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87hdqok9i6.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1rfz68ely9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<876574k7du.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1r3c28ejis.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<zILXc.54863$xi6.26091@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<1rllg0cb3m.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<874qmovxna.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<slrncj8kv2.kp.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<slrncj8mvt.djm.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <slrncj94hr.kp.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>

Op 2004-08-31, Sam Holden schreef <sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>:
> On 31 Aug 2004 10:33:07 GMT, Antoon Pardon <apardon at forel.vub.ac.be> wrote:
>> Op 2004-08-28, Isaac To schreef <iketo2 at netscape.net>:
>>>>>>>> "Kjetil" == Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no> writes:
>>>
>>>    Kjetil> after all, code in _any_ language written by a
>>>    Kjetil> professional will have strict indentation.  so it's just
>>>    Kjetil> syntax.
>>>
>>> No.  In all other languages, people deal with *two* ways to find which
>>> statement is associated with an if/while/for/whatever statement and
>>> which is not: by looking at the indentation, and by looking at the
>>> braces.  They normally look at the indentation, since it is the
>>> quicker way.  But when they find something wrong, they look at the
>>> defining braces, sometimes deeply hidden in long expressions and
>>> statements combined into one line.  In Python, we have *one and only
>>> one* way to find which statement is associated with an
>>> if/while/for/whatever statement, and this is the quicker way that
>>> people are used to.
>>
>> I doubt that.
>>
>> I used to limit myself to indentation to see which code belonged
>> to which control. But then I found myself witch controls that
>> were so nested it was hard to see to which if a particular
>> else suite belonged and I started to use end markers in comments
>> to make the structure more visible.
>
> Deep nesting is a bad sign in itself,

Why?

> regardless of how a language
> specifies block structure. Making the code readable by removing
> the unreadable nesting seems a far better solution than adding
> end markers.

The nesting reflects the structure of the algorithm. If an algorithm
is best described by the nesting of a number of control structures
then i don't see how you are going to remove that nesting.

-- 
Antoon Pardon


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 17 08:40:30 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:40:30 -0400
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
In-Reply-To: <slrnci3rlk.k5.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1637.1092428855.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<30260531.0408131853.18ec2446@posting.google.com>
	<LIqdnd7Jz9Mspr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<412040f8$0$8087$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<AuWdnUL93se81L3cRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
	<slrnci3rlk.k5.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
Message-ID: <qMSdnVT-d9UiYbzcRVn-oA@powergate.ca>

Antoon Pardon wrote:

> How about: that is how my tongue and brain are wired.

Sorry, such "explanations" are nothing more than
restatements of the original claim in different words.
They don't actually clarify the issue at all.  That's
why I called "I just don't" a cop-out.

Anyway, this is far removed from the (to me) interesting
question of why people apparently have negative reactions
to Python's use of indentation.  Some people have, in spite
of your claims that it's not possible, managed to produce
useful and interesting answers, and for that I thank them.
Please carry on about how it's not possible to provide
reasons for emotional reactions.  The rest of the world
will continue to flow on past.

We now return to the regularly scheduled flame war...

-Peter


From jepler at unpythonic.net  Fri Aug 20 08:07:12 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 07:07:12 -0500
Subject: [Tkinter-discuss] Please help -- Tkinter Scale widget with
	DoubleVar is acting weird
In-Reply-To: <4124C828.5080106@noaa.gov>
References: <4124C828.5080106@noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <20040820120712.GB24118@unpythonic.net>

I do *not* see this behavior on
    fedora-release-2-4 (Fedora Core 2 Linux)
    python-2.3.3-6
    tcl-8.4.5-7
    tk-8.4.5-6

However, while dragging I can see a set to the same value multiple
times.  I suppose this happens when the mouse movement is too small to
move one "resolution" unit.

You could use a class which acts as a function wrapper to eliminate the
redundant calls to "callback":
    class RedundancyEliminator:
        def __init__(self, var, callback):
            self.var = var
            self.callback = callback
            self.lastval = var.get()

        def __call__(self, *args):
            newval = var.get()
            if newval != self.lastval:
                self.lastval = newval
                return self.callback(*args)
            return None

    def callback(*args):
       print var.get()

    var.trace_variable("w", RedundancyEliminator(var, callback))

Jeff
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From roy at panix.com  Sun Aug 22 12:10:32 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:10:32 -0400
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<roy-37CEFC.10153622082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<wt6dncL0d4DMJLXcRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <roy-34DEBD.12103222082004@reader1.panix.com>

In article <wt6dncL0d4DMJLXcRVn-uQ at powergate.ca>,
 Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:

> Roy Smith wrote:
> 
> > Speed is the primary limitation for mainstream acceptance of high level 
> > (aka scripting) languages in general.  I can think of no reason why so 
> > much software is still written in languages like C++ other than 
> > performance (or at least, the perception of it).
> 
> I'm glad you added that parenthetical comment, because I'm nearly
> certain that it is *not* actual experience with Python, and
> disappointment with its speed, that is the cause.

I suspect that most decisions to use or not use any given technology are 
made long before any objective tests have been run.  Perception is often 
more important than measurement.

> it's quite certain
> that the mainstream *has* accepted high level languages quite
> fully.  The last time I checked, Java and C++ (even C) were
> widely considered to be high level languages.  Has someone been
> raising the bar while I wasn't looking?

Yes, I think they have.  I don't think a language that deals with memory 
management at the level that C and C++ do (explicit allocation and 
deallocation, pointers, etc) can be called high-level today.  Even in 
the 1970's, when C first appeared, it wasn't considered particularly 
high level.

There's a lot that I don't like about Java too, but at least it doesn't 
expose raw memory to the application logic, so I'll go along with Java 
being high level.  At least for now.  It's a moving target, and if you 
ask me again in 5 years, I'll probably give you a different answer.


From robin at SPAMREMOVEjessikat.fsnet.co.uk  Thu Aug 19 03:56:26 2004
From: robin at SPAMREMOVEjessikat.fsnet.co.uk (Robin Becker)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:56:26 +0100
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <cg0294$bu1$1@news.wrc.xerox.com>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<cg0294$bu1$1@news.wrc.xerox.com>
Message-ID: <41245D2A.4020409@jessikat.fsnet.co.uk>

Mark Jackson wrote:

> Robin Becker <robin at reportlab.com> writes:
> 
>>Marius Bernklev wrote:
> 
> 
>>>24.  (anyone keeping count?)
> 
> 
>>It's raining so I can't go home
> 
> 
>>Martin Jackson	55
> 
> 
> Unless there's an elderly Martin out there as well, this should be
> "Mark."
> 
whoops

-- 
Robin Becker


From ivoras at __geri.cc.fer.hr  Thu Aug  5 17:18:54 2004
From: ivoras at __geri.cc.fer.hr (Ivan Voras)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 23:18:54 +0200
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1202.1091723710.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>	<2-SdnZCwNs1SwI_cRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1202.1091723710.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ceu88t$2at$1@bagan.srce.hr>

Heiko Wundram wrote:

> 
> class someobject(object):
> 
>     @synchronized
>     @classmethod
>     def x(cls):
>         pass
> 
> If I were to translate this to english, I could read it as follows (note the 
> order):
> 
> Define a _class someobject_ which has a _synchronized_ _classmethod_ x.

FWIW, I, for example, don't have a problem with the notion of 
decorators, but I think the above syntax is just plain ugly. Why not use:

def @synchronized @classmethod x(self):
	pass

?

Granted that the keywords are long-ish, but I stongly feel it's still 
less ugly than the topmost version.


-- 
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nath Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't
you understand?


From exarkun at divmod.com  Tue Aug 31 15:21:53 2004
From: exarkun at divmod.com (Jp Calderone)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 15:21:53 -0400
Subject: Immutable sequence types lacking index() method
In-Reply-To: <DHEJIPGHDMKOKFPPKJLOMEMECAAA.anne.nospam01@wangnick.de>
References: <DHEJIPGHDMKOKFPPKJLOMEMECAAA.anne.nospam01@wangnick.de>
Message-ID: <4134CFD1.9020904@divmod.com>

Anne Wangnick wrote:
> Dear all,
> 
> I don't get why the index() method is only defined for mutable sequence
> types. This is not what I expected. Shouldn't this be added in Python? Is
> there such a PEP already?

   For all the *intended* uses of tuples, you should already know all 
the indexes you need to know.  They are implicit in the use of a tuple 
as a data structure.  If you do *not* know the index, you probably 
should be using a list instead.

   There have been numerous discussiong about what the *real* 
differences between tuples and lists are, both here and on python-dev. 
I recommend searching the archives if you are interested in the details.

   Jp


From xnews2 at fredp.lautre.net  Wed Aug 18 13:23:39 2004
From: xnews2 at fredp.lautre.net (Fred Pacquier)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 17:23:39 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Xns9549C55E3DEF5PaCmAnRDLM@212.27.42.74>

Robin Becker <robin at reportlab.com> said :

> It's raining so I can't go home
 
One more datapoint (it's raining here too) : 44 (next week :-)

-- 
YAFAP : http://www.multimania.com/fredp/


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug  9 11:41:08 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 11:41:08 -0400
Subject: Maybe, just maybe @decorator syntax is ok after all
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1397.1092064647.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <du7n017ni6o.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>	<b840abf4.0408080422.44fcf41c@posting.google.com>	<4116b725$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<mailman.1397.1092064647.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <UdCdnZRxiYuLBorcRVn-jg@powergate.ca>

Michael Ekstrand wrote:
> Much of that can be accomplished stylistically in the way comments are 
> written (granted, that doesn't accomplish much for existing code that 
> doesn't follow such conventions). But, for example, in my C/C++ code, I 
> always have comments before my functions like so:
> 
> /*
>  * FooClass::foo()
>  *
>  * Fooifies the FooClass instance
>  */
> int FooClass::foo(int parm1, char parm2, char *spam_name)
> ...
> 
> Much of the problem (in any language, then) goes away. You still run 
> into problems with existing code, though.

But it brings other problems.  There's a principle called DRY,
for Don't Repeat Yourself, which comes from observations that
*any* repetition will lead to maintenance problems and other
difficulties, especially when refactoring code.  And I can't
count the number of times I've seen comments such as the above
which were wrong, either through name changes or because of
the inevitable cut-and-paste errors.

At my last place of employment, we abolished all redundant
comments, such as those containing the name of the function or
module.  The code got much shorter and cleaner.

-Peter


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Thu Aug  5 12:29:51 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 12:29:51 -0400
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<opsb9g3hjudgjose@mail.yahoo.it>
	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051213180.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Anthony Baxter wrote:

> Please feel free to actually provide reasons for not liking @decorators.

or [decorators], or what have you:

What does one do if a decorator raises an exception?  If it's something 
necessary to the functioning of the code (say, classmethod or 
staticmethod), then all is as it should be.  But what if it's not?  What 
if you're using a run-time type checking library, or a code optimizer, 
that may not be installed?  In that case you would most likely want to let 
that decoration fail silently.  To get around this, you'd either have to 
rewrite that decorator and any above it in the chain as just normal 
decorations, or use some other weird hack.

Decorators in general are the right solution for the wrong problem (as I
detailed in another thread).  They are being introduced much too
prematurely, and have not been given time to be able to have been thought
through well enough.  The @ syntax is the result of trying to shoehorn too
many solutions into one fix.

They purport to solve the problems of function type declaration
(class/static), function attributes, runtime type checking, and general
function mangling, when each of these (save general function mangling)
already have distinct solutions in nearly every other language.  The first 
three problems are currently implemented as hacks in Python that happen to 
fall under the category of "general function mangling".  Streamlining the 
hack is not the answer.



From michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk  Mon Aug 23 04:32:07 2004
From: michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk (Michael Sparks)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 09:32:07 +0100
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408230004350.22879-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>
	<mailman.2175.1093233838.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgcagu$t40$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 00:23:32 +0100 (BST), Michael Sparks
> <zathras at thwackety.com> wrote:
...
>>      using:
>>          staticmethod synchronised memoise deprecated
... 
> The pie-decorator syntax was modified shortly after a2 to require
> one decorator per line. I think for readability's sake, this was a
> good call, and would urge you to do this in any new syntax.

Fair enough, I was wondering why I hadn't seen any reference to this
form, and this answers it - thanks !

Regards,


Michael.
-- 
Michael.Sparks at rd.bbc.co.uk    
British Broadcasting Corporation, Research and Development
Kingswood Warren, Surrey KT20 6NP

This message (and any attachments) may contain personal views
which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.




From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Aug 31 12:39:13 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (Simon John)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 09:39:13 -0700
Subject: mySQL access
In-Reply-To: <atc2hc.0gs.ln@news1.interplanet.it>
Message-ID: <ch29jh$2h7@odah37.prod.google.com>

Yeah, I used the binary on Win2K Pro and it works fine connecting to a
MySQL4 server running locally (with and without ADOdb).

Come to think of it I also used it on XP Pro to connect to my Linux
box.....



From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 03:19:38 2004
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 00:19:38 -0700
Subject: Weave - inline C
Message-ID: <6f402501.0408232319.5967f0d@posting.google.com>

Has anyone had success using weave with gcc for windows (standard
windows distribution python)?

I have my distutils setup to use gcc (via mingw32) - which it does
fine. I've compiled and installed various modules with it. Weave
itself installs fine, picking up the settings from distutils.

However it has it's own version of distutils 'scipy_distutils' that it
uses to compile the C it is given - which complains that it can't find
msvcc.... The documentation included (which is actually for the 0.2
version) gives no hints and I wondered if anyone had any success in
using it ?

Regards,


Fuzzy

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html


From koko9991 at compuserve.de  Sat Aug 14 05:33:51 2004
From: koko9991 at compuserve.de (Konrad Koller)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:33:51 GMT
Subject: PyQt(Qt): unexpected scrollbars in QCanvasView
Message-ID: <411dcfd0.649442281@news.compuserve.de>

For a card playing game I constructed a layout of 49 playing cards
(size of each: x=71, y=96) which are arranged in a 7X7 matrix side by
side. Accordingly the pysical size of the Canvas is x=71*7, y=96*7:

in the main program:
canvas=QCanvas(497,672)

class Board(QCanvasView):
	def __init__(self,canvas,parent):
		QCanvasView.__init__(self,canvas,parent)

but QCanvasView produces a layout with scrollbars in both directions.
This is very annoying for the player because although the screen's
size is more than appropriate for a total layout only some of the
cards can be viewed without scrolling. The QScrollView documentation
states that as default QScrollView shows a scrollbar when the content
is too tall to fit and not else. What goes wrong?
I am using PyQt 3.11 and Qt 3.3.1 under Linux.
Thanks for any help.


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 01:18:05 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 01:18:05 -0400
Subject: Anyone use VPython?
In-Reply-To: <8f17f4bc.0408141932.46b7c405@posting.google.com>
References: <8f17f4bc.0408141932.46b7c405@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <sMedne34zqQT3r3cRVn-rA@powergate.ca>

Ali wrote:

> Anyone use VPython?

Noting the question, the first two responses you got, and
your subsequent question, I suggest you would benefit
from reading this short essay before posting again:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

-Peter


From tim.peters at gmail.com  Sun Aug  1 20:51:15 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 20:51:15 -0400
Subject: transforming a list into a string
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011957470.22508-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
References: <pan.2004.07.31.12.27.23.547000@hotmail.com>
	<roy-982174.13075831072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<cegqdu$2fb$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<mailman.1020.1091310303.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-FDE83B.19595731072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1022.1091319366.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011814020.21160-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1032.1091401185.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011957470.22508-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <1f7befae04080117515cbb0ca9@mail.gmail.com>

[Christopher T King]
> Ah, I see your point.  But most functions that expect iterators use iter()
> on them first (to iterize sequences), do they not?  So long as iter()
> supplies the necessary __getslice__ implementation, the world would be
> happy.  This situation would mirror the situation with list(): though a
> user-defined sequence might not implement __getslice__ (and still be
> usable as a list), the object returned by list() is guaranteed to.

The difference is that list() creates a concrete list object from its
argument, but there's no such thing as "a concrete iter object". 
Iteration is a protocol, not a type.  iter(obj) invokes
obj.__iter__(), and I don't know of any existing __iter__
implementation that returns an object that supports slicing.  The only
thing required of __iter__ is that it return an object that supports
the iteration protocol (meaning an object that supports next() and
__iter__() methods).  So again, adding the ability to slice too would
mean requiring more of __iter__ methods -- or changing the
implementation of iter() to ignore __iter__ methods and make something
up itself.  It's A Visible Change no matter how you cut it.


From joewong at mango.cc  Tue Aug 24 01:48:49 2004
From: joewong at mango.cc (Joe Wong)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:48:49 +0800
Subject: Is HTTPSConnection thread-safe?
Message-ID: <07a401c4899e$07e54300$7f00a8c0@scl01.siliconcreation.com>

No, I have HTTPSConnection object in each thread. It seems that the exception happens when all threads try to execute .request() method for the very first time at the sametime...

- Joe

> Hi,
> I have a small program using HTTPSConnection to issue a POST on the
> server. When multiple threads of the same program is running, I got
> the error:
> Exception in thread Thread-3:
> Traceback (most recent call last):
> File "C:\PYTHON23\lib\threading.py", line 436, in __bootstrap
> self.run()
> File "C:\PYTHON23\lib\threading.py", line 416, in run
> self.__target(*self.__args, **self.__kwargs)
> File "mcstest.py", line 27, in thread_func
> conn.request("POST", CGI_PATH, params, headers)
> File "c:\python23\lib\httplib.py", line 718, in request
> self._send_request(method, url, body, headers)
> File "c:\python23\lib\httplib.py", line 739, in _send_request
> self.endheaders()
> File "c:\python23\lib\httplib.py", line 712, in endheaders
> self._send_output()
> File "c:\python23\lib\httplib.py", line 597, in _send_output
> self.send(msg)
> File "c:\python23\lib\httplib.py", line 564, in send
> self.connect()
> File "c:\python23\lib\httplib.py", line 985, in connect
> ssl = socket.ssl(sock, self.key_file, self.cert_file)
> File "C:\Python23\lib\socket.py", line 73, in ssl
> return _realssl(sock, keyfile, certfile)
> sslerror: SSL_CTX_new error
> in random order. Is there any fix / patches for this?
> Regards,
> - Joe

Are you passing the same HTTPSConnection object to a bunch of threads?
With just a cursory glance at the httplib module, it doesn't look like
it is thread safe (meaning I saw no thread imports, no references to
locks, etc.). If, for some reason, you feel it necessary to pass the
same HTTPSConnection object to multiple threads, you will probably want
to write a thread-safe wrapper for HTTPSConnection. I can't think why
you would want to pass the same conn object to multiple threads rather
than creating a new one per thread - unless you want to have one and
only one persistent connection among all threads (using keepalives, I
guess).

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From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Fri Aug 27 01:10:58 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:10:58 -0700
Subject: i can't run wxPython
References: <88c4d3f.0408261841.297be57d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1093583969.343830@news.commspeed.net>

I would try downloading a new copy of wx.Python there seems to be a glitch
in your install.

Tom




From agriff at tin.it  Mon Aug 16 03:10:03 2004
From: agriff at tin.it (Andrea Griffini)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 07:10:03 GMT
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1637.1092428855.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<30260531.0408131853.18ec2446@posting.google.com>
	<LIqdnd7Jz9Mspr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<412040f8$0$8087$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<AuWdnUL93se81L3cRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <hml0i0hp2p6q8tqtfm1gn3nh8qjr1pn270@4ax.com>

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 01:41:52 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com>
wrote:

>For example, if 90% of people who have the "indentation rash"
>had previous encounters with FORTRAN IV, then it ought to
>be possible to make it obvious in the early documentation
>(tutorial, intro page, etc) that Python is not FORTRAN and
>doesn't suffer from the same limitations with respect to
>indentation/whitespace significance as FORTRAN does.
>
>(Not that I think we'll really find this particular one
>to be the biggie.  But that roughly describes my purpose...)

Not sure if this would help. I have to admit that at first
the idea of whitespaces instead of braces generated a general
repulsion. This probably due to FORTRAN or COBOL memories (note
that I never did any real work with those languages... just
high-school code snippets)... but the point is that this was
just BEFORE reading any documentation on python.
Before installing it and giving it a try the only source of
knowledge was an earsay that whitespaces was important in
python... and even if my memories of high-school are mostly
really nices this triggered an immediate "oh-no!".

There is no need to tell that now I'm just more than happy
to use indentation... it really works beautifully and takes
probably 5 minutes to forget braces for structure and see
how they are indeed noise and not information.

The only truly annoying thing is the hideous tab problem...
I've personally banned tabs since when they become unreliable
(i.e. when they lost their comfortable 8-spaces size: seems
that someone didn't understand that making a tab meaning
anything was indeed making tab mean nothing), but I'm
still fighting with collegues that on VC++ insist on
doing stupid things with tabs (like changing their size
every couple of months and keeping the "use tabs" checkbox
in the preferences dialog ... IMO basically because they
can't see the logical distinction between tab size and
indent size).

Andrea


From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu  Sun Aug 29 02:09:50 2004
From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Daniel Yoo)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 06:09:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Python / scheme implement
References: <8kcUc.216223$pC2.10693727@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<cfrkiv$1eti$1@agate.berkeley.edu>
	<87brhagmm7.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>
Message-ID: <cgrrve$1kaf$1@agate.berkeley.edu>

510046470588-0001 at t-online.de wrote:
: Daniel Yoo <dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu> writes:
:> It's not perfect (and frankly, is a little outdated!), but it's a
:> proof-of-concept that one language can model the other.

: how does python model call-with-current-continuation?


Hi Klaus,

I'm not sure if you meant that question to be a challenge, but I'll
take it up!  *grin*


The question is slightly off: there's nothing about Python in
particular that prevents us from implementing call/cc.  It does,
however, take a bit of work: implementing call/cc involves a rewrite
of the interpreter into a CPS form.


It's actually not too bad, and I have now done this.  As a nice side
effect, we also get proper tail recursion!  Hurrah!

You can take a look at the updated code here:

    http://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~dyoo/python/pyscheme/pyscheme-1.5pre.tar.gz

For example:

;;;;;;
volado:~/Documents/work/pyscheme/trunk/src dyoo$ python scheme.py
Welcome to PyScheme!  Type: (QUIT) to quit.

[PyScheme] >>> (+ 1 (call/cc (lambda (k) (+ 2 (k 3)))))
4
;;;;;;


The improvements are due to ideas I stole from Shriram Krishnamurthi's
"Programming Languages: Application and Interpretation":

    http://www.cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Books/ProgLangs/

and Friedman, Wand, and Haynes "Essentials of Programming Languages":

    http://www.cs.indiana.edu/eip/eopl.html


I'm psyched now: I think I finally understand continuations!  *grin*


I do have to fix a major bug with pair representation in pyscheme.
But as soon as I get that outstanding fixed, I'll send a more formal
announcement.


Hope this helps!


From james at logicalprogression.net  Tue Aug 17 20:56:40 2004
From: james at logicalprogression.net (James Henderson)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 01:56:40 +0100
Subject: strange problem with def in class
In-Reply-To: <1092788477.995526@seven.kulnet.kuleuven.ac.be>
References: <1092788477.995526@seven.kulnet.kuleuven.ac.be>
Message-ID: <4122A948.3010805@logicalprogression.net>

Johan wrote:
> I don't get it:
> I'm trying to write a "readfile" function which would replace some code from
> a __init__ function:
> 
> 1    import string
> 2    class landdict:
> 3        def __init__(self, file):
> 4                # Laadt de dictionnary van landen.
> 5                # Kijk in de actiefspel-file voor de file van waaruit je
> moet laden.
> 6                self.ld = {}
> 7                f = open(file, "r")
> 8                line = f.readline()
> 9                if line[0] == "#":
> 10                    line = f.readline()
> 11              while line != "":
> 12                    key = line[0:3]
> 13                    self.ld[key] = string.split(line[4:], ':')
> 14                    line = f.readline()
> 15              print self.ld
> 
> So I would like to replace the code from line 7 to line 14 with
> 
> readfile(filename)
> 
> while
> 
> def readfile(filename) is another function in the class
> 
> but I can't define this function.... when I call the function the
> interpreter throws an exception of unknown function
> what am I doing wrong?

Hi Johan

Other variables defined in a class are in a scope that cannot be 
accessed directly from within a method (Python newish nested scoping 
only works for functions inside functions).

Personally I would move your readline() function outside the class to 
the module level.

If you want to keep it in the class then either give it a self parameter 
or add "readline = staticmethod(readline)" after the definition of 
readline().  Then you can call it from within __init__() as 
self.readline(filename).

HTH,
James



From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Tue Aug  3 11:46:51 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 17:46:51 +0200
Subject: PyQT tutorial
References: <410f8d35$0$31408$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <2n9qbdFug619U1@uni-berlin.de>

Olivier Thiery wrote:

> Do you know any good  and fairly complete tutorial about PyQT, Eric and
> QtDesigner ?

The qt documentation itself. qt examples can usually translated more or less
directly to pyqt.

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 12:13:25 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:13:25 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>
	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>
	<cghslg$lao$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <loom.20040825T180248-859@post.gmane.org>

Paul Morrow <pm_mon <at> yahoo.com> writes:
> Steven Bethard wrote:
> > Are you trying to say that "metadata" is the same thing as "operator 
shortcut"?
> 
> Not exactly, but it would include defining those.

Ahh.  Well I at least sort of see where you're going with this now, thanks.

It's probably notable that I could write my example in two ways:

class Identity:
    def get(self, x):
        return x
    __getitem__ = get

class Identity:
    def __getitem__(self, x):
        return x
    get = __getitem__

I think I could agree that the use of things like __getitem__ can indicate 
some metadata about the class, but I'd note that that is not all they do.  In 
the example here, __getitem__ defines a function that can be used like any 
other function.  At the same time, because it's *named* __getitem__, we get 
some metadata about the function.

Using the same logic, I should expect that in something like:

def baz():
    __foo__ = "bar"
    # body of baz

__foo__ would be a string, and could be used like any other string.  At the 
same time, because it was *named* __foo__, we would get some metadata about 
the string.

So I guess my point is that, while the *name* might give us some metadata, I'm 
not convinced that the *use* is in any sense metadata.

STeve



From p_s_oberoi at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 16 14:31:03 2004
From: p_s_oberoi at hotmail.com (Paramjit Oberoi)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:31:03 -0500
Subject: ConfigParser options spanning more than one line
References: <mailman.1741.1092674038.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.16.18.31.03.490175@hotmail.com>

> I'm using ConfigParser and I can't seem to get a config option to span
> more than one line.

>>> from ConfigParser import ConfigParser
>>> from StringIO import StringIO
>>> s = StringIO("[a]\n"
...              "b = 123\n"
...              " 456")
>>> c=ConfigParser()
>>> c.readfp(s)
>>> c.get('a','b')
'123\n456'

In other words, any line with a leading whitespace is considered a
continuation line, and the leading whitespace is stripped from the value
(but the carriage return is left in).

HTH,
-param


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 16:18:00 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:18:00 +0200
Subject: Inline Conditionals?
References: <mailman.2307.1093385983.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<jt6dnb18R-cz6LDcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
	<1gj4rpq.1oyt89b14xvbdqN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncirqvf.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
Message-ID: <1gj5bit.rt2tmzcznspxN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Antoon Pardon <apardon at forel.vub.ac.be> wrote:
   ...
> When using list comprehension not having a ternary operator can be
> a PITA. It is of course possible I miss something but how am I
> supposed to do the following:
> 
>    [ x.property ? foo(x) : bar(x) for x in Somelist ]

If you HAVE to use an LC by doctor's order, the above effect might be
obtained by coding something like:

[  (bar,foo)[bool(x.property)](x) for x in Somelist ]

If your physician should relent and let you code normal Python, though,

aux = []
for x in Somelist:
    if x.property:
        aux.append(foo(x))
    else
        aux.append(foo(x))

would be vastly more readable; "sparse is better than dense" and any LC
is far too dense to be Pythonic here.


Alex


From zathras at thwackety.com  Fri Aug 20 16:16:59 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:16:59 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Decorator keyword options - brainstorming
In-Reply-To: <2omsj9Fcej95U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408202114520.15385-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Reinhold Birkenfeld wrote:
> David Vaughan wrote:
> > Paul McGuire wrote:
> > I don't know - it sounds fun.  I vote:
> >
> > SpanishInquisition:
> >     staticmethod
> > def foo():
> >     pass
> > But seriously, there must be something literally pythonic we could
> > propose.
> How about
> pythonic:
>     staticmethod
> def foo():
>     pass
>

That's never work - for IronPython you'd have to change it:

ironic:
    staticmethod
def foo():
    pass

;-)


Michael.



From bingham at cenix-bioscience.com  Wed Aug  4 07:37:37 2004
From: bingham at cenix-bioscience.com (Aaron Bingham)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 13:37:37 +0200
Subject: Barcode Layout
Message-ID: <4110CA81.6060706@cenix-bioscience.com>

Hello,

We are dealing with barcodes a lot and we want to be able specify the 
layout of a barcode label in a device-independant way and then output 
to, e.g., a wxWindow, a PostScript file or a special-purpose barcode 
printer.  We want to specify higher-level entities (e.g. barcode) in the 
layout directly.  Backends will either output corresponding high-level 
printer commands (barcode printer) or construct the entities from 
lower-level primitives (wxWindows, PostScript).

I've been looking at Piddle (http://piddle.sourceforge.net/) and it 
appears we could write a backend to support our barcode printer with 
extra methods for higher-level entities, but I'm reluctant committing to 
apparent abandonware. 

Does anyone have experience doing similar things with Piddle?  Are there 
any plans to maintain/enhance/replace Piddle?  Are there other packages 
I should look at?

Thanks,

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Bingham
Application Developer
Cenix BioScience GmbH
--------------------------------------------------------------------



From CarolCarrot at sofsof.net  Mon Aug 16 22:52:22 2004
From: CarolCarrot at sofsof.net (Carol Carrot)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:52:22 -0600
Subject: http://www.freecrm.com
Message-ID: <voSdnX_nqaB-77zcRVn-pA@comcast.com>

In what ways would I get dorked if I use this website?




From jumpthewall at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 19:36:08 2004
From: jumpthewall at gmail.com (Chris Patton)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 16:36:08 -0700
Subject: PyJack
Message-ID: <6fd8df7e.0408111536.79369258@posting.google.com>

I just finished my first program (PyJack)! If you'll noticed, there
are many ways inwich I can shorten the program (I really don't know
all the python syntax.) Please post suggestions.

code:



# PYJACKv1
# This is a 'blackjack' program written in python. There are two os
calls, that makes this program disqualified for 'operating system
independency', but oh well. These calls only screen. Change
accordingly
import whrandom, os
def scorer(score,playerdeck):
        b = 0
        while b == 0:
                try:
                        d = 0
                        while d < len(playerdeck):
                                if score > 10 and 'A' in playerdeck:
typevalues['A'] = 1
                                elif score <= 10 and 'A' in
playerdeck: typevalues['A'] = 11
                                score += typevalues[playerdeck[d]]
                                d = d + 1
                        b = 1
                except KeyError:
                        b = 0
                return score                        
a = 'y'
b = 0
while a == 'y':
        # shuffle deck
        print "loading..."
        types = ['A','2','3','4','5','6','7','8','9','10','J','Q','K']
        typevalues = {'A':1, '2':2, '3':3, '4':4, '5':5, '6':6, '7':7
, '8':8,'9':9, '10':10, 'J':10, 'Q':10, 'K':10}
        left = [4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4]
        deck = []
        decksize = 0
        while decksize < 52:
                a = whrandom.randint(0,12)
                if left[a] > 0:
                        left[a] = left[a] - 1
                        deck.append(types[a])
                        decksize = decksize + 1
                elif left[a] == 0: pass
        os.system('cls')
        print
        # play?
        print "---*Black Jack*---"
        if b == 0: a = raw_input('\nWould you like to play? [y,n]')
        elif b > 0: a = raw_input('\nPlay again? [y,n]')
        while a not in ['y','n']:
                if b == 0: a = raw_input('\nWould you like to play?
[y,n]')
                elif b > 0: a = raw_input('\nPlay again? [y,n]')
        if a == 'y': pass
        elif a == 'n': break
        # deal
        c = 0
        humandeck = []
        while c <= 1:
                humandeck.append(deck[0])
                del deck[0]
                c = c + 1
        compdeck = []
        c = 0
        while c <= 1:
                compdeck.append(deck[0])
                del deck[0]
                c = c + 1
        score = 0
        compscore = 0
        stay = 0
        over = 0
        compstay = 0
        compover = 0
        # playing the game
        score += scorer(score,humandeck)
        while over == 0 and stay == 0:
                move = 0
                a = 0
                printdeck = ''
                epd = compdeck[0]+' |?|'
                while a < len(humandeck):
                        printdeck += humandeck[a]+' '        
                        a += 1
                os.system('clear')
                print '\n---*Black Jack*---'
                print '\n\n  Dealer:  '+epd
                print '\n  Player:  '+printdeck+'\n 
score='+str(score)
                # your turn
                if stay == 0 and over == 0:
                        move = raw_input('\n  <a>hit <b>stay \n\n 
<$>')
                        while move not in ['a','b','hit','stay']: move
= raw_input('\n  <not an option $>')
                elif stay > 0: pass
                if move in ['a','hit']:
                        humandeck.append(deck[0])
                        del deck[0]
                elif move in ['b','stay']: stay = stay + 1
                score = 0
                score += scorer(score,humandeck)
                if score > 21:
                        over = over + 1
                        printdeck = ' **OVER**'
        # Dealer's turn
        while 1:
                f = 0
                f = scorer(compscore,compdeck)
                if f > 21:
                        compover = 1
                        break
                if f > 15: break
                if f <= 15:
                        try:
                                compdeck += deck[0]
                                del deck[0]
                        except IndexError: pass

        epd = ''
        c = 0
        while c < len(compdeck):
                epd += compdeck[c]+' '
                c = c + 1
        compscore = scorer(compscore,compdeck)
        # Winner?
        os.system('clear')
        print '\n---*Black Jack*---'
        print '\n\n  Dealer:  '+epd+'\n  score='+str(compscore)
        print '  Player:  '+printdeck+'\n  score='+str(score)
        e = 0
        if score > compscore and over == 0 and compover == 0: winner =
'Player'
        elif score == compscore and len(humandeck) < len(compdeck):
winner = 'Player'
        elif compover > over: winner = 'Player'
        elif score < compscore and compover == 0 and over == 0: winner
= 'Dealer'
        elif score == compscore and len(humandeck) > len(compdeck):
winner = 'Dealer'
        elif compover < over: winner = 'Dealer'
        elif compover == over and score == compscore:
                print '\n\n  TIE'
                e = 1
        else:
                if over < compover: winner = 'Player'
                elif over > compover: winner = 'Dealer'
                else: winner = 'Dealer'
                
        if e == 0: print '\n\n  The '+winner+' wins this round.'
        raw_input()
        a = 'y'
        b = 1
print '\nGood day.'


From bh at intevation.de  Fri Aug 20 12:58:29 2004
From: bh at intevation.de (Bernhard Herzog)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:58:29 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E14@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
	<mailman.2063.1093020568.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <s9z4qmx21ca.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>

Steven Bethard <steven.bethard at gmail.com> writes:

> It does look 
> like J2 is generally the preferred syntax so far

At least of those who don't like the pie syntax at all.

>  I know that J2 is not everyone's favorite, but I'm hoping that we can
> agree that, even if it's not our favorite, is a clear improvement over
> @pie syntax.

I don't know.  If J2 gets the majority of the votes for an alternative,
it might be a good idea to have a second vote just between the pie
syntax and J2.  I'd vote for pies.

   Bernhard

-- 
Intevation GmbH                                 http://intevation.de/
Skencil                                http://sketch.sourceforge.net/
Thuban                                  http://thuban.intevation.org/


From dd55 at cornell.edu  Tue Aug  3 17:06:24 2004
From: dd55 at cornell.edu (Darren Dale)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 17:06:24 -0400
Subject: executing python programs as if they were on OS path (noob)
In-Reply-To: <k_2dnTdzxdPEbpLcRVn-rw@powergate.ca>
References: <ceoogb$7lm$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<EpOdneEAjIQgepLcRVn-sA@powergate.ca>
	<ceoq2d$8bh$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<k_2dnTdzxdPEbpLcRVn-rw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <ceouoh$a42$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>

Peter Hansen wrote:
> Darren Dale wrote:
> 
>>> At least two options (assuming you're on Linux... you
>>> didn't specify your OS unfortunately):
>>>
>>
>> I am currently on windows. I didnt think it would matter, sorry I left 
>> that out.
> 
> 
> Ah, you tricked us by using forward slashes in the sample
> path. :-)
> 

I just wanted to pretend I was already a linux user...

> On Windows, the best answer depends on *which* Windows you
> are on... 98?  XP?  Other?
> 

I'm on XP.


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 13:54:53 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 03:54:53 +1000
Subject: python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
In-Reply-To: <3l3pi0pgmgu0uir1ucnj0rlfo355c6i5cp@4ax.com>
References: <mailman.2274.1093330945.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<3l3pi0pgmgu0uir1ucnj0rlfo355c6i5cp@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040825105474a0bd9b@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:22:33 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
> Perhaps you could clarify your position a bit.  I think the
> "community" understands some fundamental difference between posting to
> python-dev and to python-list.  If not Aahz is normally there to
> remind them.
> 
> Guido's "genius" extends to marketing, IMO.
> 
> Having some sense of participation in the fate of Python, even if bit
> hullicinatory, is fundamental to the development of its following.  A
> clasic form of guerilla marketing.  Considering that the Python
> markteing budget in $ is 0, I think it would be a mistake to have the
> community believe that their only role is to read the release notes.

I think Brett might have overstated his case a little - I can
understand his frustration, though. The _overwhelming_ number of posts
on the subject of decorators have evidently not bothered to make the
slightest effort to read the past postings on the subject. Yes, part
of this is that the PEP wasn't up to date before a2. But I see many of
the same points being raised, again and again, without the poster
having bothered to read the previous posts and the replies to them,
often _in_ _the_ _same_ _thread_. Instead, there was a mass pile-on of
folks jumping up and down and screaming[1]

[1] I'm obviously not including everyone here. There's also been a
large number of insightful and carefully thought out posts.

_No-one_ is saying "we don't need to include the community". FFS, I'd
point to the something around 120 posts I've made to
c.l.py/python-list since a2 came out.

However (and this is what I think Brett was trying to get at) at a
certain point in any syntax discussion, it comes down to aesthetics,
and a judgement call. And the person who _I_ trust to make the best
judgement call on the subject of Python's aesthetics is Guido. He's
got an exceptionally good track record here. (I discount print >>,
which I still regard as horrible).

Go back and read some of the earlier posts after a2 came out. In many,
many cases they were full-on rants and raves, "how could Guido do
this?" and the like. I'm _quite_ confident that in many/most cases,
the people doing the ranting and raving had *not* bothered to download
the alpha and actually *try* *the* *syntax* *out*. Instead, we got
"ew! the @ symbol! That's perl!" or "decorators are stupid! No-one
needs them!"

Certainly, part of the reason many of my responses were strongly
worded in the days after the a2 release was that it was obvious the
posters were posting their immediate thoughts, as I said, without
bothering to stop and try the syntax out, or think about the issues a
little.

I'm all for community involvement. I recognise that we could have done
better in the days around the second alpha, and I've been trying
*damn* hard to make that better. But I don't see much point getting
community feedback if the feedback is unthinking abuse and uninformed
ranting. It's a two way street.


From reply2group at ndbbm.net  Tue Aug 31 10:01:15 2004
From: reply2group at ndbbm.net (Active8)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:01:15 -0400
Subject: Need help importing/installing reportlab module
References: <1ezngypknj8ju.dlg@news.individual.net>
	<4133EF58.4050709@holdenweb.com>
	<1556ldg3h91o2.dlg@news.individual.net>
	<41346680.9070900@holdenweb.com>
Message-ID: <1mu4yaug6x6al$.dlg@news.individual.net>

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 07:52:32 -0400, Steve Holden wrote:

<snip>
>> when I unzip, I get
>> 
>> ..\ReportLab_1_19\reportlab-1_19
>> 
> Right, but this is because you chose to unzip INTO a directory you had 
> created called ReportLab_1_19.

Actually, that's one of the context menu options winrar suggests -
the name of the zip file.

> If you look at the archive with WinZip or 
> similar, you'll see that it essentially bundles everything into a 
> reportlab-1_19 directory. That directory contains only two things: you 
> identify them in your next bit. Not sure what the "..\" is doing in your 
> path up there ...

Sorry, should have been "." IOW I unzipped it into the dir it was
saved in and let winrar create a dir named after the zip archive.
> 
<snip all the nitpicky stuff I tried>
>> 
> Right. You are complicating things WAY beyond what they need to. 
> Something I am prone to do myself, so I feel a certain sympathy.

As it says at your site, Python folks are nice - liked the success
matrix bit, too :) i.e., the "...two ways into..." article linked
from the home page.
> 
> Delete everything you've done so far and unpack the archive into the 
> root directory on your D: drive. (or move what you have already, if you 
> feel confident doing that and you haven't messed about with the contents 
> of the package). This will create
> 
> D:\reportlab-1_19\MANIFEST.txt
> D:\reportlab-1_19\reportlab\__init__.py

Done
> 
> and a whole bunch of other stuff. What you are supposed to import is the 
>   D:\reportlab-1_19\reportlab DIRECTORY: it's a package, as indicated by 
> the presence of the __init__.py file.
> 
> So, having got this far, you now need to create a .pth file that Python 
> will find (the easiest way to ensure that is to create it in the same 
> directory as your python.exe interpreter binary). It doesn't matter what 
> it's called, as long as its name ends in ".pth". It needs to contain 
> just one line, which reads
> 
> D:\reportlab-1_19

Done. Even tried D:\reportlab-1_19\reportlab after the above line
failed - just in case. Erm... I just shut down and started python
again and it reread the path file and works. Screw myself :( Recall
I mentioned shutting it down once before? Maybe I didn't do that
often enough. Wish I knew, cause this has been what I'd call a PITA
compared to the last time I installed this package.
> 
> This will indicate to the interpreter that it can look in that directory 
> for the reportlab package, and bingo, you are done.

Mekes sense. Python finds what is now paths.pth in the same dir as
its executable, etc.
> 
> Note that if you install multiple packages you can add a line to the 
> same .pth file for each of the packages you want Python to find, but 
> that needn't concern you just now.

Maybe not, but it'll save a post later.
 
<snip my other futile, wheel spinning endeavors>

> [...] and I would encourage you to read the 
> description in the tutorial [Section 6.4 in my 2.3 documentation]. It 
> also doesn't really help that type(reportlab) is reported as <type 
> 'module'>, adding to the potential for confusion, but once you have used 
> packages for a while it seems like a very natural way to bundle related 
> pieces of functionality.

Agreed and duly noted. How can I forget after this? ;)

But the userguide.pdf has bullets and paragraphs in that section and
I'm sure you're not talking about graphics_reference.pdf. THe report
lab site I downloaded from... sparse. I didn't see add'l docs there.

>From 00readme.txt
"
If you don't see the pdf manual you expected or you wich to
ensure an up to date copy run the script tools/genAll.py!
"
genALL.py is not in tools\, it's in docs\ - where the readme resides
:) heh, heh... documentation's a bitch.

test_pdfgen_general.py seems to work nicely. runAll.py throws no
errors and compiles __init__.py, unittest.py, and utils.py.

genAll.py threw a flurry of messages some WARNs some Errors. I tried
to redirect win console errors to a file, but all those python
errors don't make it there. The first wrning was that the Imaging
Library was not available. Unable to import bitmaps.

Maybe that means PIL? I dunno.

I got graphics_reference.pdf out of the deal. Not sure if there
should be more, but the 00readme says

"
Thid directory holds documentation.  For end users,
it should contain a number of PDF manuals.  For
people working with the source, this directory will
be the destination for any manuals built.
"
> 
> Get back to the group again if you still can't import reportlab - it's 
> really worth the effort, honest! I use the o-s toolkit to do all my 
> invoicing.

Is that part of reportlab or what? FYI, reportlab is used by a
program called gerber2pdf by Joseph C Chavez. It converts the
industry standard Gerber files from an electronic circuitboard
layout package to pdfs. Kinda handy when you don't have a high $
photoplotter.

-- 
Best Regards,
Mike


From dave at pythonapocrypha.com  Fri Aug 13 17:47:19 2004
From: dave at pythonapocrypha.com (Dave Brueck)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:47:19 -0600
Subject: Why I love python.
In-Reply-To: <slrnchqbbq.am7.npat@gray.efault.net>
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>	<mailman.1583.1092378965.5135.python-list@python.org>	<slrnchpf2s.7ld.npat@gray.efault.net>	<mailman.1614.1092408264.5135.python-list@python.org>	<slrnchq1c4.am7.npat@gray.efault.net>	<mailman.1630.1092425261.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnchqbbq.am7.npat@gray.efault.net>
Message-ID: <411D36E7.6030408@pythonapocrypha.com>

Nick Patavalis wrote:

> On 2004-08-13, Dave Brueck <dave at pythonapocrypha.com> wrote:
> 
>>Nick Patavalis wrote:
>>
>>>I also mentioned web-browsers, ray-tracers, circuit-simulators. I
>>>could add word-processor, spreadsheets, video editing programs, and
>>>GUI toolkits to the list. Are they still too exotic?
>>
>>No - but I still don't think they reflect anywhere near a majority of 
>>the development that goes on.  
> 
> 
> Yes, the majority of development goes on little *glue programs* that
> take data from a database, and format is as XML/HTML, or aggregate and
> analyze data stored in a database, and stuff like that. But for all
> these to be possible a massive amount of *infrastructure* is
> required. And this infrastructure cannot be created in Python. So you
> don't say that Python isn't a glue language, but that the greatest
> percentage of development that currently goes-on *is* glue-stuff
> development

Well, at my current company we've implemented web and file servers, 
cache log parsers, web applications, Windows desktop applications, 
Windows COM objects including web browser plugins, video splicers, and a 
host of tools, all in Python. These aren't "little glue programs" - they 
are just programs; normal programs we'd have to write in _some_ language 
and Python turned out to be the best fit. What's more, a whole heck of a 
lot of the functionality implemented in Python would most definitely 
fall under the category of infrastructure, not glue.

> Put yourself in this position: Its a few years ago (say 1998 or 1999),
> and no graphical web-browser exists for Linux. You are planning to
> develop the "iso-standard" web-browser for this operating
> system. Would you do it in Python? Remember that no HTML parsers
> exist, no decent HTML renderers, the GUI toolkit is more or less
> primitive, and the low-end desktops runs at about 200-something
> MHz. You might argue "this is not the case today", but how can you
> preclude that *similar* challenges do not occur today, or will not
> occur in the future?

This is so far removed from what I'm trying to say that I don't even 
know how to respond. I'm not arguing that at all.

> 2004 again, and you decide to scrap and replace the age-old X11 window
> system; do away with it and start from scratch. Build a moder
> windowing system; 3D all over, fully network transparent, with widget
> support on the server-side, fully object oriented interface, and so
> on. How much of it would you be able to code in Python? 

Python is not the right tool for every job. There do exist cases where 
more performance is required than can be delivered.

Having said that, the cases where it is too slow make up a small (and 
shrinking) portion of the total amount of development going on. As such, 
better performance is always welcome, but it won't benefit as many 
people and as much as other things can. IOW, anytime you say, "wouldn't 
it be great if Python were faster?" you can easily get everybody to 
respond, "sure!" - everybody's on board with you there. It's when you 
try to fit it into the list of priorities that you'll find that there 
are other things higher on the list. Higher because they provide more 
benefit overall and/or to the people who are interesting in helping out.

To your specific question, I actually _would_ use Python for most of an 
X11 replacement system. Obviously low-level stuff would be handled by 
one of the existing 3D libraries out there (no need to reinvent the 
wheel there - the goal is to build a better window system, and we'd want 
a good hardware abstraction lay). I've seen a few proof-of-concepts with 
Pygame that lead me to believe that it's doable - their performance is 
already better than X11's performance for the first decade or so of its 
existence.

 > How much *more* would you rather be able to code in Python?

You can't consider the benefit in isolation. You have to take into 
account the costs involved.

-Dave


From davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu  Tue Aug 24 15:03:45 2004
From: davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu (David Pokorny)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:03:45 -0700
Subject: J2 paper 0.2.1
References: <mailman.2180.1093238695.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <d8ydnRVlie_oDLbcRVn-oQ@lmi.net>

Robert,
I think the proposal is fantastic. Very thorough and positive.

    Choice of Keyword:
+1 for 'using'

    Grammar:
In another thread (J2 proposal: keyword), we came to some synthesis on
allowing semicolons to separate decorators:

"Nicolas Fleury" <nid_oizo at yahoo.com_removethe_> wrote in message
news:KqlWc.54712$F85.1167861 at wagner.videotron.net...
> Roman Suzi wrote:
> > This surprises me. And this doen't surprise:
> >
> > using:
> >      staticmethod; synchronized; memoize
> > def bar(foo):
> >      "To colon or not to colon? Def is the question."
> >      pass
>
> +1
> Nicolas

This is a much better idea than what I had originally suggested, and there
is some precedent, namely the simple_stmt form (from Grammar/Grammar).

> simple_stmt: small_stmt (';' small_stmt)* [';'] NEWLINE

An argument against allowing this: it can lead to some mild abuse, namely

> > using:
> >      staticmethod; synchronized; memoize; accepts(int,int); returns(int)
> > def bar(foo,foo2):
> >      "To colon or not to colon? Def is the question."
> >      pass

>From what I can tell, this is about as bad as it gets as for readability. I
see two rebuttals to this example:

A) accepts(...) and returns(...) are just stopgap measures for what may be
the "optimal function prototype syntax" (I can hear the groans already).

B) As a matter of philosophy, Python both creates the infrastructure to make
readable programs and encourages good coding style that leads to readable
programs but does not actually force you to write readable programs. I think
disallowing the following

> > using:
> >      staticmethod; synchronized; memoize
> >      returns(int); accepts(int,int)
> > def bar(foo,foo2):
> >      "To colon or not to colon? Def is the question."
> >      pass

would be an unjust fate for a decent compromise between readability and
economy.

---------------------------------------------------
One possible syntax, which mimics Grammar/Grammar:

    small_decorator: dotted_name [ '(' [arglist] ')' ]
    simple_decorator: small_decorator (';' small_decorator)* [';'] NEWLINE
    suite_of_decorators: simple_decorator | NEWLINE INDENT simple_decorator+
DEDENT
    funcdef: ['SpanishInquisition' ':' suite_of_decorators]
             'def' NAME parameters ':'suite

David




From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Thu Aug 12 14:40:30 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:40:30 -0400
Subject: NumArray array-indexing
In-Reply-To: <a56f3aa5.0408120958.5e9db50d@posting.google.com>
References: <a56f3aa5.0408120958.5e9db50d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121433170.9323-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>

On 12 Aug 2004, Michael Drumheller wrote:

> I am new to NumArray and I wonder if someone can help me with
> array-indexing.  Here's the basic situation: Given a rank-2 array
> (i.e., a matrix) it seems to be trivial, with array indexing,
> to extract a subset of its *columns*.  But it does not seem
> to be trivial to extract a subset of its *rows*.

You can do this using slices, like so:

>>> from numarray import *
>>> a = array([[1, 2], [3, 4]])
>>> a[:,1]
array([2, 4])

':' means 'take all values along this axis', just like how with standard 
Python lists it means 'take all values in the list'.

> Basically, it seems to me that NumArray simply does not support
> the distinction between a column vector and a row vector.  That 
> is, if you have x=[1,2,3], then transpose(x) is a no-op.  True?

False.  You have to supply numarray with a two-dimensional array in order 
to perform a two-dimensional transpose:

>>> transpose([[1, 2, 3]])
array([[1],
       [2],
       [3]])



From justin__devine at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 30 17:15:41 2004
From: justin__devine at hotmail.com (Justin)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 14:15:41 -0700
Subject: "Content-Length" header
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2633.1093898424.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ch05dt$t0p@odak26.prod.google.com>

URL open appears to not want to work unless its paramater is an actual
string spelled out in quotes.  Check out the output to this code.  When
I give urlopen objects instead of pre strings it doens't work
correctly.

print linklisttype

for y in linklisttype:
temp = urlopen(y)
print temp
temp2 = temp.info()
print temp2
temp3 = temp2.getheader("Content-Length")
print temp3
file_sizes.append(temp3)

print file_sizes


#This is the tuple with three urls in it, they all look correct to me

['http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~harnad/temp/ariadne-rae.doc',
'http://www.ecs.soto
n.ac.uk/~harnad/temp/ukparl.doc',
'http://www-admn.csun.edu/systech/techsupport/
procedures/2kcleanup.doc']

#here are the return values for y =0, didn't work
<addinfourl at 25805248 whose fp = <socket._fileobject object at
0x014093B0>>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 21:10:50 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.27 (Unix)  (Red-Hat/Linux) mod_ssl/2.8.12
OpenSSL/0.9.6b DAV/
1.0.3 PHP/4.3.2 mod_perl/1.26
Connection: close
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
None

#same here
<addinfourl at 25805048 whose fp = <socket._fileobject object at
0x01409688>>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 21:10:53 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.27 (Unix)  (Red-Hat/Linux) mod_ssl/2.8.12
OpenSSL/0.9.6b DAV/
1.0.3 PHP/4.3.2 mod_perl/1.26
Connection: close
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
None

#this one worked though i don't know why.  If I paste the URLs they all
work
<addinfourl at 25807968 whose fp = <socket._fileobject object at
0x01409650>>
Server: NetWare-Enterprise-Web-Server/5.1
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 21:10:53 GMT
Content-type: application/msword
Last-modified: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 22:50:08 GMT
Content-length: 297984
Accept-ranges: bytes
Connection: close

297984
[None, None, '297984']



From luismg at gmx.net  Mon Aug 23 21:33:29 2004
From: luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 18:33:29 -0700
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<278de0e.0408220636.3ee25f9d@posting.google.com>
	<mYGdnT5L6pqMJ7XcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
	<278de0e.0408221450.324e8178@posting.google.com>
	<cgdb8m$1bs$1@panix2.panix.com>
Message-ID: <278de0e.0408231733.700685e7@posting.google.com>

> >I love Python. It's an excellent, fun, clear, well designed language
> >and it is fast enough for 90% of the cases. But you can't deny that
> >for some problem domains, it is slow. Very slow.
> 
> That's true.  If that's what you'd said in the first place, nobody would
> have argued with you...

I already replied a similar comment in my previous post.


> If you're going to make a claim that speed is Python's main limitation,
> you'll need to provide evidence to support your assertion.

Same as above.

 
> >I didn't want to start a silly thread to discuss wether python is slow
> >or not. It is. Period.
> 
> Nope.  Speed is relative.  Is a car slow?  Depends whether you're trying
> to go five feet, five miles, fifty miles, five hundred miles, or five
> thousand miles -- and it also depends on the alternatives available for
> traversing that distance.  Repeatedly claiming that Python is slow as an
> absolute statement only shows your ignorance and unwillingness to listen
> to other people.

I got your point and I used those lines myself many times. 
I'm not making an absolute statement as though I'm a fundamentalist
fanatic of speed. What I mean, is that it is widely known that
scripting languages have a considerably lack of speed compared with
static typed languages (I didn't discover anything new, and this is
what I mean when I repeated the statement that python is not fast).
Again, as I already explained, I'm not saying that other people's
oppinion are wrong, when I used the word "nonsense" I wanted to say
that the whole discussion is in which we were all involved is
nonsense, because there's no use in discussing whether python is slow
or not. This is a proven fact.

Your arguments regarding the relativity of speed are correct and
nobody is denying it. But I am talking about this little percentage of
applications, that use to be the most relevant (usually) in enterprise
environments or in commercial applications where high volumes of data
are processed, as well as 3d programs, games, etc..).
My point is: 
It is my humble oppinion (and I already acknowledged that I SHOULD
HAVE USED THIS TERMS BEFORE), that this is the main reason that
explains the little acceptance of Python in certain professional
circles.

Now, you can agree with me or not. In that case, your oppinion is
welcome, but I don't need a moral lesson as to how I should address
these topics.
I guess I already said what I have to say about my oppinions.

If I hurted someone I'm sorry!
I hope that we can move on with this topic and you can stop dissecting
my phrases looking for something new to disavow...


 
> >All the other comments on this thread, regarding the main limitation
> >for python's acceptance are true, but speed is critical, and this is
> >were all efforts should be concentrated.
> 
> That's nice.  If that's your belief, what are you doing to work on this?

Again, I already replied this.
 
> >So my intention when I started this thread, was to learn more about
> >these projects, read other oppinions, get some news, etc... I didn't
> >mean to start a a nonsense discussion!
> 
> Believe me, I'm sympathetic to the fact that English is not a comfortable
> language for you.  However, at this point, the problem appears to be a
> thinking problem, not a language problem.  You simply hold an opinion at
> odds with the experience of many expert Python programmers, and it's one
> that is almost guaranteed to start an argument.

I don't know how to comment on this without being recursive.


From graham__fawcett at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 17 12:34:51 2004
From: graham__fawcett at hotmail.com (Graham Fawcett)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 09:34:51 -0700
Subject: Flython?
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <e9570f37.0408170732.14fcc7ad@posting.google.com>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message news:<BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ at powergate.ca>...
> Just been looking at Flash and ActionScript...
> 
> In the vein of Jython, I wonder what it would take to build
> a Flython?  (Lousy name, I know.)  That would take Python
> source, presumably a subset since some things couldn't be supported,
> and compile it into ActionScript bytecode (aka the bytecode compiled
> from ECMAScript source for the Macromedia Flash player environment).

I've written some code (twice, I think) to generate SWF from Python.
Didn't include ActionScript, but it's all there in the SWF spec, so it
shouldn't be *too* hard to implement. My code was less than fast, and
was highly specialized to do a few things that I was interested in
(and ignored the rest). If there's interest, I'll dig it out, though
it's far from project-grade code and is possibly broken. The toughest
part was just grokking the SWF spec, and building some Pythonic
primitives that can output SWF tags. Simply put, writing SWF from
Python isn't rocket science. But of course, you want more than just
that...

> With that, it would be pretty easy to write applications which
> have a Flash front end, but with pretty much all the logic
> on front and back implemented in Python.

A neat idea, definitely begging for a proof-of-concept. I look forward
to testing it. ;-)

There will be times when you want to make a GUI "flashier" than your
framework will allow (unless you're planning to reimplement all of
Flash). Perhaps you might want to use the framework to prototype
something, and then knock the real thing out using Flash (perhaps
importing the ActionScript from your framework). I'd encourage you to
leave room in the design for the inclusion of non-native SWF
components (i.e. ones built using something other than your framework)
that could interact with your back-end (and, through it, with other
client components).

Dave Kuhlmann has done some interesting writing on generating Web
applications from declarations (google for him, Quixote, and REST, and
it should turn up). This might be useful, since your framework spans
the client/server boundary (and perhaps you'd like to obscure that
boundary just a little bit) and would be well suited to a declarative
style (except for the scripting). Quixote suits REST quite well, it
seems, and might be worth consideration as part of your back-end
design.

The last random snippet that comes to mind is that, on Win32, it's not
hard to build a SWF viewer using wxPython (and the SWF plugin, of
course). That might help with deployment where a browser really isn't
suitable.

I know I've said "your framework" half a dozen times, and there's no
such animal, but I do hope that you or someone else picks up the trail
on this and gives it a college try. It would be fun to use, I think.

-- Graham <fawcett at uwindsor.ca>


From alexander.dejanovski at laposte.net  Fri Aug  6 08:41:14 2004
From: alexander.dejanovski at laposte.net (Alexander DEJANOVSKI)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 14:41:14 +0200
Subject: ANN : JyRetic EAI Server 1.0 released
Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040806143428.03750b10@127.0.0.1>

JyRetic 1.0 is now available after for Retic 1st birthday...


The most important new feature is the integration of Tanuki Software's 
"Java Service Wrapper".
It adds to Retic great restart-on-crash features.

Other changes are :

- New : Adaptor and parameter definitions are now stored to provide, among 
others, "restart" features.
- Bug fix : Exceptions are now correctly raised on error in SQLSink.
- New : SMTP Postprocessor
- New : Jabber Postprocessor
- New : SNMP Trap Appender (logger)
- Various bug fixes and improvements I might have forgotten...


Retic Administrator 1.32 is out too (Upgrade is highly recommended)

Changes are :

- Fix : Corrected bug on WSDL parsing during WS component creation
- Fix : Corrected bug on estimated end time in execution tracking
- New : New items in execution tracking popup menu => Open adaptor 
definition, Open params definition and restart
- New : support for scheduling permanent adaptors


Have fun !!


=============================================================
WHAT IS RETIC ?

Retic is an EAI Server.
The aim is to permit applications to communicate, even if they
don't speak the same language (which means transport protocols
as well as data structures).
This is done by building adaptors. An adaptor is composed of :
         - One source
         - Several pipes (process data transformations)
         - Several sinks (destination of data)
         - Several loggers (using log4j)
         - Preprocessors (executed only once before adaptor execution - for 
example => drop/create a table through a SQL query)
         - Postprocessors (executed only once after adaptor execution - for 
example => creation of an index on a table through a SQL query)

It is written in Jython and works 100% fine with only Java 1.3+ installed 
(although some libs like cocoon.jar and poi-block.jar might only work on 
Java 1.4, delete them in case you can't upgrade) on your system (jython 2.1 
is embedded in the releases).
It provides connectivity with : JMS, HTTP, SOAP, UDDI, FTP, Xindice, JDBC, 
Jabber, SMTP and more...

=============================================================



From yong at net.tamu.edu  Tue Aug 17 14:40:32 2004
From: yong at net.tamu.edu (Yong Wang)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:40:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: read input file a line as a list in python
Message-ID: <20040817184032.C3A411589B@net.tamu.edu>

Hi, All:
    I need to read a input file as soucre to process data. Ideally
if I can read a line from input file as a list (coloumn separate by
white space), reorganize field in a line. Does python has this kind of 
command ? 
   for example, I read a line has:
   "IP  MAC Date..." as a line from input file, How  can I only get MAC ?
    Thanks,

    Yong
 


From ville at spammers.com  Fri Aug 20 10:32:18 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 17:32:18 +0300
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<2omet9Fc2v4mU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <du7r7q1j2x9.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>

H H J2


Yes, I like

| decorate2
| decorate1(42, "hello")
def f(x):
    return x+1

And I don't mind the pie syntax either anymore.

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Wed Aug 18 15:41:34 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 21:41:34 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <cfvi4r$bn7$1@news.tue.nl>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<cfvi4r$bn7$1@news.tue.nl>
Message-ID: <2ohpksF94tajU3@uni-berlin.de>

Gerrit Muller wrote:
> Most Python programmers I know are 40+. I am myself 47 (born in december 
> 1956).
> 
> regards Gerrit
> 
> P.S.,
> 
> how many teeners are still programming? Most teeners I know build 
> websites, but they don't program.

I certainly wouldn't call these shockingly horrible bunches of IE-tags
thrown together with the intention of being regarded as "cool" a "website".

Reinhold, rant rant

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From __peter__ at web.de  Fri Aug 13 17:16:34 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 23:16:34 +0200
Subject: How to sort records in file
References: <81a41dd.0408131122.21180d0d@posting.google.com>
	<411d168e$0$65601$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <cfjb3i$s9q$07$1@news.t-online.com>

Grant Edwards wrote:

> On 2004-08-13, Lad <export at hope.cz> wrote:
> 
>> What is the best( easiest)way how to sort a file?
> 
> $ man sort
> 
> ;)
> 
>> I have a file where each record consists of 3 fields( 3 words)
>> and I would like to sort records by the first field( word)in
>> each record.
> 
> lines = file('myfilename').readlines()
> lines.sort()
> for l in lines:
>     print l,
> 

Or

lines = file('myfilename').readlines()
lines = [(line.split(None, 1)[0], i, line) 
         for (i, line) in enumerate(lines)]
lines.sort()
lines = [line for (_, _, line) in lines]
for l in lines:
    print l,

if you want to keep the order stable.

Peter


From cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca  Sun Aug  8 22:30:54 2004
From: cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca (David M. Cooke)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 22:30:54 -0400
Subject: numarray speed question
References: <953AD3D0Didtoken@128.91.2.239>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408040845120.27254-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<953C4DD4idtoken@128.91.2.239>
	<qnkr7qluxuy.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
	<144d0df.0408070828.338f8c19@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <qnkn015ujoh.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>

At some point, grv575 at hotmail.com (grv575) wrote:

>> What you *do* get with numarray is:
>> 
>> 1) transparent handling of byteswapped, misaligned, discontiguous,
>>    type-mismatched data (say, from a memory-mapped file generated on a
>>    system with a different byte order as single-precision instead of
>>    double-precision).
>
> Heh.  Try timing the example I gave (a += 5) using byteswapped vs.
> byteswap().  It's fairly fast to do the byteswap.  If you go the
> interpretation way (byteswapped) then all subsequent array operations
> are at least an order of magnitude slower (5 million elements test
> example).

You mean something like
a = arange(0, 5000000, type=Float64).byteswapped()
a += 5

vs.
a = arange(0, 5000000, type=Float64)
a.byteswap()
a += 5

? I get the same time for the a+=5 in each case -- and it's only twice
as slow as operating on a non-byteswapped version. Note that numarray
calls the ufunc add routine with non-byteswapped numbers; it takes a
block, orders it correctly, then adds 5 to that, does the byteswap on
the result, and stores that back. (You're not making a full copy of
the array; just a large enough section at a time to do useful work.)

>> If you need the best possible speed (after doing it in numarray and
>> finding it isn't fast enough), you can write an extension module to
>> do that bit in C, or look into scipy.weave for inlining C code, or into
>> f2py for linking Fortran code to Python.
>
> Well re speed what really bothers me is the slowness in which numarray
> is improving in this area.  If I have to take 1000 FFT's over 32
> element arrays, then it's useless.  I'll have to install both numarray
> and numeric :/

Maybe what you need is a package designed for *small* arrays ( < 1000).
Simple C wrappers; just C doubles and ints, no byteswap, non-aligned.
Maybe a fixed number of dimensions. Probably easy to throw something
together using Pyrex. Or, wrap blitz++ with boost::python.

-- 
|>|\/|<
/--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
|David M. Cooke
|cookedm(at)physics(dot)mcmaster(dot)ca


From npat at efault.net  Fri Aug 13 14:33:31 2004
From: npat at efault.net (Nick Patavalis)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 18:33:31 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<411C8CD9.32F39C2@mega-nerd.com> <411C93B2.2027B48B@alcyone.com>
	<slrnchpe3q.7ld.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<2o4divF6one2U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <slrnchq2br.am7.npat@gray.efault.net>

On 2004-08-13, Reinhold Birkenfeld 
<reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net> wrote:
>
> I think the dynamic nature does make it impossible to do anything in
> such cases at the first place. Consider:
>
> klass = raw_input()
> classobj = eval(klass + "()")
> print classobj.whatami
>

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. The only solution in such a case
would be for the environment to call the compiler at run time, and
compile classobj then. This means of course that in such cases the
compiler must be included in the "executable".

I believe this has been done in other dynamic languages.

Typed-extensions, as you mention, would also help.

/npat


From davidf at sjsoft.com  Fri Aug  6 10:43:19 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 16:43:19 +0200
Subject: @decorators
In-Reply-To: <10h6v76mm313cce@news.supernews.com>
References: <d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa@posting.google.com>
	<10h6v76mm313cce@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <cf05e8$41d$2@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

John Roth wrote:
> "daishi" <google at daishi.fastmail.fm> wrote in message
> news:d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa at posting.google.com...
> 
>>For what it's worth:
>>
>>As far as I know, the proposed @decorator syntax will be the first
>>time that two logical lines of python with the same indentation will
>>not be independent of one another.
> 
> 
> Examples:
> 
> try - except - finally
> if - elif - else
> while - else
> 

I think he mean two consecutive lines of python code with the same 
indentation.

David


From daniel.dittmar at sap.com  Fri Aug 13 04:07:15 2004
From: daniel.dittmar at sap.com (Daniel Dittmar)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 10:07:15 +0200
Subject: PEP 318 decorators are not Decorators
References: <Xns9543CB4CF5EDFarienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.7>
Message-ID: <cfhsri$a1q$1@news1.wdf.sap-ag.de>

Arien Malec wrote:
> decorator. One of the issues is that the Decorator pattern is more

The term decorator as used in the current discussion comes from compiler
writing. You have a syntax 'tree' which gets 'decorated' with additional
attributes.

Daniel




From k.hauschildt at onlinemed.de  Wed Aug 11 20:14:50 2004
From: k.hauschildt at onlinemed.de (Karsten Hauschildt)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 02:14:50 +0200
Subject: Smart text parsing
Message-ID: <000601c48001$63a4bdc0$7e31fbd9@name225q1ocg1y>

Heeedewedemethies!!!!!!!
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From Sibylle.Koczian at Bibliothek.Uni-Augsburg.de  Tue Aug 17 04:19:27 2004
From: Sibylle.Koczian at Bibliothek.Uni-Augsburg.de (Sibylle Koczian)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:19:27 +0200
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
In-Reply-To: <56cfb0e3.0408142004.511a8a8e@posting.google.com>
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<56cfb0e3.0408142004.511a8a8e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <2odtceF9itokU1@uni-berlin.de>

Porky Pig Jr schrieb:
> beliavsky at aol.com wrote in message news:<3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760 at posting.google.com>...
> 
>>One of the most commmon reasons programmers cite for not trying Python
>>is that indentation determines the program flow -- they think its
>>weird. I think programmers who actually try Python adapt quickly and
>>do not find the indentation rules to be a problem.
>>
> 
> 
> Not only it's *not a problem*. I've found it quite useful since it
> forces you to keep the proper indentation.
> 
I think indentation that's only there for human eyes, not for the 
compiler, can be the reason why you overlook your bugs:

First version:

if (condition) then
     statement-1;
statement-2;
...

Second version:

if (condition) then
     statement-1;
     statement-1a;
statement-2;
...

This isn't Python but Pascal, but you probably wanted the compiler to do 
exactly what Python _will_ do: execute statement-1a if (and only if) 
condition is true. I've done this time and again and each time wondered 
about incorrect results.

Of course this won't happen if you have to use braces or begin - end 
even for a single statement. But with Pascal or C/C++ that's not enforced.

And those staircases of

         end
     end
end

(quite a short example) aren't really beautiful, or are they?

Koczian


From buzzard at urubu.freeserve.co.uk  Mon Aug 23 22:10:16 2004
From: buzzard at urubu.freeserve.co.uk (Duncan Smith)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 03:10:16 +0100
Subject: newbie: confused with example in Learning Python 2nd Edition:
	can anyone give a hint
References: <56cfb0e3.0408231710.27d78703@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cge7v5$u4r$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>


"Porky Pig Jr" <porky_pig_jr at my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:56cfb0e3.0408231710.27d78703 at posting.google.com...
> Here is an example of Stack class which got me totally confused:
>
> >>> class Stack:
> ...     def __init__(self, data):
> ...             self._data = list(data)
> ...             self.push = data.append
> ...             self.pop = data.pop
> ...
>
> What I don't understand: we take the 'data' input (a list), and copy
> it to semi-private instance attribute _data. Something like this:
>
> >>> mystack = Stack([1,2,3])
> >>> dir(mystack)
> ['__doc__', '__init__', '__module__', '_data', 'pop', 'push']
> >>> mystack._data
> [1, 2, 3]
>
> So: why defitions of self.push and self.pop are defined as
> 'data.append' rather than '_data.append', etc. What makes me yet more
> confused: the whole thing works just fine, and yet I can't figure out
> in which attribute we store the results of pushes and where pops are
> coming from.
> Like I push '4' on a stack:
>
> >>> mystack.push(4)
>
> and yet this does not affect _data (obviously):
> >>> mystack._data
> [1, 2, 3]
>
> and yet '4' is stored *somewhere*, since pop() produces the right
> result:
>
> >>> mystack.pop()
> 4
> >>>
>
> Where is that hidden instance attribute and how can I access it? Seems
> like very simple definition, and yet there is something tricky about
> it.
>
> TIA.

>>> alist = [1,2,3]
>>> mystack = Stack(alist)
>>> mystack.push(4)
>>> mystack._data
[1, 2, 3]
>>> alist
[1, 2, 3, 4]

Duncan




From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Sun Aug  1 06:58:58 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 12:58:58 +0200
Subject: PyQt - clear widget for redraw
References: <410b4492@news.maxnet.co.nz> <ceg1gk$e0b$03$1@news.t-online.com>
	<410bf265@news.maxnet.co.nz>
Message-ID: <ceiidi$u4k$05$1@news.t-online.com>

Peter wrote:
> Thanks, that works fine.
> I just started using pyqt yesterday, and having trouble finding a
> reference - most Qt stuff is written for c++.

The neat thing on pyqt is that usually you can directly translate c++
examples to python. So there is no need to have a separate documentation
and other resources. The erase I looked up in the qt standard
documentation.

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Sun Aug  8 20:05:16 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 20:05:16 -0400
Subject: Maybe, just maybe @decorator syntax is ok after all
In-Reply-To: <4116b725$1@nntp.zianet.com>
References: <du7n017ni6o.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>
	<b840abf4.0408080422.44fcf41c@posting.google.com>
	<4116b725$1@nntp.zianet.com>
Message-ID: <4116bfbd$1@nntp.zianet.com>

Mark Bottjer wrote:
> AdSR wrote:
> 
>> You know what, I'm starting to feel the same. Yesterday Anthony
>> Baxter mentioned this URL:
>>
>> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047112.html
>>
>> where GvR says:
>>
>> """ Given that the whole point of adding decorator syntax is to move
>> the decorator from the end ("foo = staticmethod(foo)" after a
>> 100-line body) to the front, where it is more in-your-face, it should
>> IMO be moved all the way to the front. """

Now combine this with this message, which I just found:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047279.html

where GvR says:

"""In the discussion on decorators months ago, solutions involving
special syntax inside the block were ruled out early on.  Basically,
you shouldn't have to peek inside the block to find out important
external properties of the function.  (Yes, I know that docstrings
violate this principle.  For the record, it would be better if they
were prefix too; and a prefix decorator syntax will let us fix this in
the future but introducing a "doc" decorator.)"""

So the position of the decorators is not open to debate. :(

   -- Mark


From jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu  Thu Aug  5 21:44:09 2004
From: jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu (John Hunter)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 20:44:09 -0500
Subject: tkinter idle handler
Message-ID: <m23c316nx2.fsf@mother.paradise.lost>


Does tkinter have an idle handler analogous to pygtk's gtk.idle_add?

Normally I could find this myself on google, but googling for tkinter
idle turns up a few false positives <wink>.

JDH


From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Aug  5 06:56:29 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 12:56:29 +0200
Subject: distutils frustration
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1183.1091703049.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1183.1091703049.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4112125D.6060608@v.loewis.de>

Michal Vitecek wrote:
>  please, prove me i'm wrong (i'd be happy to) :)

Have a look at Fnorb's setup.py

Regards,
Martin


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Sat Aug 14 11:09:36 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 01:09:36 +1000
Subject: importing node into document
Message-ID: <1092496176.411e2b302e12a@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

is there an equivalent for the Java document.importNode in Python
what i am trying to do is to import a node from a different document into
the current document and then append it one of the nodes in the current
document
tempNode.ownerDocument = node.ownerDocument
 #the above gives an error saying i am trying to modify a reda-only
attribute
 #if i omit the statement, the statement below throws an error saying they
 #the nodes are from different document
node.appendChild(tempNode)

thanks

cheers






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From bdelmee at advalvas.REMOVEME.be  Wed Aug 18 17:43:24 2004
From: bdelmee at advalvas.REMOVEME.be (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bernard_Delm=E9e?=)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 23:43:24 +0200
Subject: Access to Oracle
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1856.1092831836.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1856.1092831836.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4123cdd9$0$8985$6c56d894@feed0.news.be.easynet.net>

We are using python 2.3 with cx_oracle on HP-ux
originally built againt 8i libraries, works fine to access
our db upgraded to 9i2

http://www.computronix.com/utilities.shtml#Oracle


From mithrandi at mithrandi.za.net  Sat Aug  7 20:00:41 2004
From: mithrandi at mithrandi.za.net (Tristan Seligmann)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 02:00:41 +0200
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar, but for what exactly?
In-Reply-To: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
Message-ID: <20040808000040.GA640@mithrandi.za.net>

On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 23:50:47 +0000, Bengt Richter wrote:

The code:

>     @limited_expression_producing_function
>     @another
>     def func(): pass
> 

is equivalent to:

def func(): pass
func = limited_expression_producing_function(another(func))
-- 
mithrandi, i Ainil en-Balandor, a faer Ambar
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From fakeaddress at nowhere.org  Sun Aug  8 00:59:48 2004
From: fakeaddress at nowhere.org (Bryan Olson)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 04:59:48 GMT
Subject: How to force a single number to be a tuple
In-Reply-To: <roy-0B13C1.18151306082004@reader1.panix.com>
References: <mailman.1138.1091636758.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-6EC9F2.12271204082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1142.1091637381.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1a517b5.0408061329.429de7fc@posting.google.com>
	<roy-0B13C1.18151306082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <8riRc.2334$mg2.1933@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>

Roy Smith wrote:
 > For those of us who went to school a while ago, and perhaps didn't pay
 > as much attention in math class as we should have, could you translate
 > "an element of the Cartesian product of zero or more domains" into
 > English?

A domain is a set; it's used in the contexts like the domain of
a function, where it means the values for which the function is
defined.  I see others have explained the Cartesian product.

[...]
 > My Python code built up a list of the values and generated [1, 2,
 > "three", "four"].  My two friends recoiled violently at the idea that I
 > would put heterogeneous data types into a list.  I passed it off as
 > simply being due to their poor unfortunate upbringing in the C++/STL
 > world of type bondage, while I was living in the carefree bohemian
 > Python world.  I was shocked to discover some time later that Python was
 > not as bohemian as I thought, and the priests and elders would have been
 > as dismayed at my carefree mixing of data types in a list as my stodgy
 > C++ brethren were.

Perhaps those priests and elders would be happier in ML or one
of its followers. There's a lot to be said for uniform-type
lists, but that's not Python's idea of lists.


-- 
--Bryan


From jtauber at jtauber.com  Mon Aug 16 16:57:30 2004
From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 04:57:30 +0800
Subject: passing globals to imported module
In-Reply-To: <10i252tsvv2lda4@corp.supernews.com>
References: <mailman.1756.1092682856.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<10i252tsvv2lda4@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <1092689850.30883.202447032@webmail.messagingengine.com>


Actually he liked that a lot.

I think it's elegant too, although my preference is still for him to
change his design.

But thanks!

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:09:49 -0700, "Jeff Shannon" <jeff at ccvcorp.com>
said:
> James Tauber wrote:
> 
> >Had a question from a colleague that I embarrassingly couldn't answer.
> >
> >He has a script, foo.py with a global. He wants to import bar.py and
> >needs that global available in bar.py
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> #### global.py
> my_global = "Hello!"
> 
> 
> #### foo.py
> import global, bar
> 
> print global.my_global
> 
> 
> #### bar.py
> import global
> 
> print global.my_global
> 
> ;)
> 
> Jeff Shannon
> Technician/Programmer
> Credit International
> 
> -- 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
-- 
  James Tauber               http://jtauber.com/
  journeyman of some    http://jtauber.com/blog/



From rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm  Sat Aug 28 09:00:59 2004
From: rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm (Roel Schroeven)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 13:00:59 GMT
Subject: allowing braces around suites
In-Reply-To: <1rhdqnd3rm.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87hdqok9i6.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1rfz68ely9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<876574k7du.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1r3c28ejis.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<5MWXc.228027$ht5.11749427@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<1rhdqnd3rm.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <fm%Xc.228352$qk5.11718706@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote:

> [Roel Schroeven]:
> 
>>  Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote:
>>  > how long do you have to stare before spotting the bug?
>>  
>>  Just the time needed to read the code.
>>  
>>  >     db.update_name(person)
>>  >     if is_student(person):
>>  >         db.update_courses(person)
>>  >         db.commit()
>>  > only students have their names updated.  I wonder why.
>>  
>>  No offense, but I wonder why you have a problem with this
>>  code. IMO the indentation makes perfectly clear what's happening.
> 
> 
> I don't think it is appropriate that I dump thousands of lines of code
> here to illustrate the problem :-)
> 
> when I provide four lines of code and tell you there's a bug, of
> course you can spot it immediately.

I immediately saw what the code does; at first I didn't know it was the 
bug you were referring to since I don't know what the code is supposed 
to do. Then I read 'only students have their data updated' as 
description of the bug, and only then I knew that the commit was 
incorrectly indented.

>  when it's part of a large system,
> it's a bit harder.  also consider that the db.commit() originally was
> correctly placed by the programmer, and the wrong indentation was
> introduced later by an editing glitch.

In that case, I agree it can be harder. But IMO it gets harder with 
increasing code complexity, whether braces are used or not. I haven't 
yet seen very complex python programs, but I have seen C and C++ code 
with multiple nesting levels, and let me assure that it can sometimes be 
very difficult to spot errors.

-- 
"Codito ergo sum"
Roel Schroeven


From yaoroland07 at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 19 10:50:35 2004
From: yaoroland07 at yahoo.com (Roland)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 07:50:35 -0700
Subject: Interface graphique pour python
Message-ID: <8e16829.0408190650.3fa62d5e@posting.google.com>

Bonjour,

J'ai redhat 9.0 sur mon ordinateur. Et j'ai besoin d'une interface
graphique de python pour cnstuire une application . J'ai cherch? mais
en vain. Pourriez-vous m'indiquer une?

    Merci de bien vouloir m'aider.


From drumheller at alum.mit.edu  Thu Aug 12 13:58:29 2004
From: drumheller at alum.mit.edu (Michael Drumheller)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 10:58:29 -0700
Subject: NumArray array-indexing
Message-ID: <a56f3aa5.0408120958.5e9db50d@posting.google.com>

(If you're not interested in NumArray, please skip this message.)

I am new to NumArray and I wonder if someone can help me with
array-indexing.  Here's the basic situation: Given a rank-2 array
(i.e., a matrix) it seems to be trivial, with array indexing,
to extract a subset of its *columns*.  But it does not seem
to be trivial to extract a subset of its *rows*.  The code
snippet below describes the problem (if it really is a problem)
in detail.  Note that the "problem" has an obvious, quick
solution via take(), but I wish it could be done with 
the much more compact method of array indexing.  I hope 
my little snippet conveys what I'm after.

Basically, it seems to me that NumArray simply does not support
the distinction between a column vector and a row vector.  That 
is, if you have x=[1,2,3], then transpose(x) is a no-op.  True?
(Note that doing x.shape=[3,1] does not do what I want; it produces
an awkward object that does not have the desired effect from
an array-indexing point of view.)  Does this strike anyone
else as a rather serious limitation for someone (like me)
who would love to use Python/NumArray for my daily math
instead of, say, Matlab?

Thank you.

Mike D.

-----------------------cut here-----------------------------

Demo snippet:

from numarray import *
x = array(range(1,10), type=None, shape=[3,3])
print "(A) Original 3x3 array:\n", x
i = [1,2]
print "(B) An index set:\n", i
print "(C) 2nd and 3rd rows of x w/ take(x, i, 0):\n", take(x, i, 0)
print "(D) 2nd and 3rd cols of x w/ take(x, i, 1):\n",  take(x, i, 1)
print "(E) 2nd and 3rd rows of x w/ x[i]:\n", x[i]
print "(F) 2nd and 3rd rows of x w/ transpose(transpose(x)[i]):\n",
transpose(transpose(x)[i])
print "(G) Wish x[transpose(i)] would work, but alas:\n",
x[transpose(i)]

It has this output:

(A) Original 3x3 array:
[[1 2 3]
 [4 5 6]
 [7 8 9]]
(B) An index set:
[1, 2]
(C) 2nd and 3rd rows of x w/ take(x, i, 0):
[[4 5 6]
 [7 8 9]]
(D) 2nd and 3rd cols of x w/ take(x, i, 1):
[[2 3]
 [5 6]
 [8 9]]
(E) 2nd and 3rd rows of x w/ x[i]:
[[4 5 6]
 [7 8 9]]
(F) 2nd and 3rd rows of x w/ transpose(transpose(x)[i]):
[[2 3]
 [5 6]
 [8 9]]
(G) Wish x[transpose(i)] would work, but alas:
[[4 5 6]
 [7 8 9]]


From richie at entrian.com  Fri Aug 27 06:22:00 2004
From: richie at entrian.com (Richie Hindle)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:22:00 +0100
Subject: Specific request with code example (encapsulation) __init__
	problems
In-Reply-To: <cgl33g$1oh@odah37.prod.google.com>
References: <mailman.2436.1093533260.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgl33g$1oh@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <kh2ui0l3atukk67t863h9raokqpact5ifb@4ax.com>


> Thanks I finally got it working.  Big help.

Glad to hear it!

> What's the difference between SetLabel and SetItemLabel.  Below is a
> paste form the wx manual and it didn't contain that function

Either you have an old version of the manual or you didn't read the whole
entry for wxRadioBox::SetLabel.  The wxWindows 2.5.1 manual says:

> wxRadioBox::SetLabel
> 
> [...]
> 
> wxPython note: In place of a single overloaded method name, wxPython
> implements the following methods:
> 
> SetLabel(string)         Sets the radiobox label.  
> SetItemLabel(n, string)  Sets a label for a radio button.  

-- 
Richie Hindle
richie at entrian.com



From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 06:02:07 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:02:07 +0200
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
	<dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
	<aN5Xc.205341$M95.157379@pd7tw1no>
	<1gj4fb5.607xsc51izh8N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xllg25lkt.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj4u3a.12ttba9fynd6uN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncis152.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<1gj5bp4.qhup8tldmvebN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncitrk7.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<7xk6vlgemp.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<slrnciu0fg.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
Message-ID: <1gj6eil.hgzr1l125qaomN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Antoon Pardon <apardon at forel.vub.ac.be> wrote:
   ...
> Fine practicality beats purity, but then the proponents shouldn't
> put that much weight on consistency, because practicality breaks
> consistency.

No: "but special cases aren't special enough to break the rules".  No
rule was broken by introducing += and friends.


> In this case I think the practicality of method chaining beats
> the purity of not allowing side-effects in print statements and
> of having only one obvious way to do things.

You think one way, GvR thinks another, and in Python GvR wins.  Go
design your own language where what you think matters.


> I don't see that much difference in the frustration of having
> to write: 
> 
>   t = f(x)
>   v[t] = v[t] + 1

You're repeating (necessarily) the indexing operation, which may be
unboundedly costly for a user-coded type.


> and the frustration of having to write
> 
>   lst = f(x)
>   lst.sort()
>   lst.reverse()

Here, no operation is needlessly getting repeated.

If you don't see much difference between forcing people to code in a way
that repeats potentially-costly operations, and forcing a style that
doesn't imply such repetitions, I wonder how your language will look.
Still, I'm much happier thinking of you busy designing your own
wonderful language, than wasting your time and yours here, busy
criticizing what you cannot change.


Alex


From paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it  Fri Aug 20 10:47:52 2004
From: paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it (Paolino)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:47:52 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <1IqdnUtRpciSmrvcRVn-vQ@giganews.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>	<mailman.2044.1093008551.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1IqdnUtRpciSmrvcRVn-vQ@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <41260F18.2000809@yahoo.it>



Istvan Albert wrote:
> Paolino wrote:
> 
>> d2 d2 j2
>>
>> Thanks for the piece of democracy
> 
> 
> or more likely the 'illusion' of it.
> 
IMO democracy stands in the will of helping people partecipate.Illusion 
of democracy relays on (among the rest) convincing not to do it.....
Entropy leads us somewhere where we could easy define democracy in a 
pragmatic way.If python is not a well defined politically correct 
system,its users can still laugh about that while they ride the entropic 
wave.

			Paolino

		





From luismg at gmx.net  Mon Aug  2 18:39:05 2004
From: luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 15:39:05 -0700
Subject: Starkiller?
References: <278de0e.0408020648.6d187aff@posting.google.com>
	<cem2hk$l4h$1@news1.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <278de0e.0408021439.63c7c30@posting.google.com>

I sent Michael an email by the end of June, and he replied that it
would take a "a few weeks" because he was redoing some parts to make
the code more comprehendable and mantainable.

I just wonder how many weeks are "a few weeks" ;-)
He was very kind to reply, but since I don't know Michael personally,
I don't want to bother him with more questions...


From justin__devine at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 30 16:48:33 2004
From: justin__devine at hotmail.com (Justin)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 13:48:33 -0700
Subject: Size of a remote URL
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2630.1093897188.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ch03r1$5h9@odbk17.prod.google.com>

Ok now I have what I consider to be a very odd problem.  It appears my
code will not work inside a for loop but will work outside of one.
Check it out

temp =
urlopen("http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~harnad/Temp/Ariadne-RAE.doc")
print temp
temp2 = temp.info()
print temp2
temp3 = temp2.getheader("Content-Length")
print temp3


for y in linklisttype:
temp = urlopen(y)
print temp
temp2 = temp.info()
print temp2
temp3 = temp2.getheader("Content-Length")
print temp3
file_sizes.append(temp3)


THIS IS THE CODE RETURNED IN THE CONSOLE.  AS YOU CAN SEE the
connection closes when the code is placed in a FOR loop.  Does anybody
have an understanding of why this happens?

<addinfourl at 25805288 whose fp = <socket._fileobject object at
0x014083E8>>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 20:45:40 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.27 (Unix)  (Red-Hat/Linux) mod_ssl/2.8.12
OpenSSL/0.9.6b DAV/
1.0.3 PHP/4.3.2 mod_perl/1.26
Last-Modified: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 15:19:42 GMT
ETag: "f10f630-9a800-3ea2ba8e"
Accept-Ranges: bytes
Content-Length: 632832
Connection: close
Content-Type: application/msword



<addinfourl at 25807968 whose fp = <socket._fileobject object at
0x01408998>>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 20:45:40 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.27 (Unix)  (Red-Hat/Linux) mod_ssl/2.8.12
OpenSSL/0.9.6b DAV/
1.0.3 PHP/4.3.2 mod_perl/1.26
Connection: close
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1



From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Sun Aug 29 13:53:38 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 19:53:38 +0200
Subject: Enumerating Network Adapters
References: <4131b09e$0$13683$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <cgt571$8lv$06$1@news.t-online.com>

> I could process ipconfig or ifconfig outputs, but
> this is OS-dependant and not very future-proof...

This has been discussed quite a few times on this NG, search google groups.
However IMHO there is no general system built-in way (AFAIK not even posix)
for doing this, you'll end up parsing tool output anyway...

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From artur_spruce at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 19 08:23:59 2004
From: artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 05:23:59 -0700
Subject: IDLE under Cygwin doesn't show toolbar menu
References: <56cfb0e3.0408181608.794fed82@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <b840abf4.0408190423.7cbc8ef@posting.google.com>

porky_pig_jr at my-deja.com (Porky Pig Jr) wrote in message news:<56cfb0e3.0408181608.794fed82 at posting.google.com>...
> Just downloaded and installed the latest Cygwin distribution which
> includes python 2.3.4. IDLE runs fine but for some reason the toolbar
> menu doesn't show up.
> Like, by default, it starts shell window, but no toolbar. If I type
> 
> idle foobar.py
> 
> it brings both shell and editor windows, but once again, no toolbar on
> either window -- which renders the edtior quite disfunctional.
> 
> Just want to check if anyone else ever ran into this problem and what
> was the workaround -- before I contact Cygwin folks.
> 
> TIA.

I've seen this too.

I believe this is a long-known problem with no solution so far. You
could check that in the Python project bug list at
http://sourceforge.net/projects/python - I think I saw it there.

AdSR


From skip at pobox.com  Fri Aug 13 11:36:09 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 10:36:09 -0500
Subject: def ... decorate
In-Reply-To: <slrnchnlm3.vq2.nick@irishsea.home.craig-wood.com>
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
	<slrnchnlm3.vq2.nick@irishsea.home.craig-wood.com>
Message-ID: <16668.57321.308134.676624@montanaro.dyndns.org>

>>>>> "Nick" == Nick Craig-Wood <nick at craig-wood.com> writes:

    Steven> decorate:
    Steven>     grammarrule('statement : expression')
    Steven>     versioninfo("Added in 2.4")
    Steven>     deprecated
    Steven>     typeinfo(None)
    Steven> def p_statement_expr(self, p):
    Steven>     print p[1]

    Nick>  as:
    Nick>      staticmethod
    Nick>      grammarrule('statement : expression')
    Nick>      version("Added in 2.4")
    Nick>      deprecatedmethod
    Nick>      type_(None)
    Nick>  def p_statement_expr(self, p):
    Nick>      print p[1]

How about

    def p_statement_expr:
        staticmethod
        grammarrule('statement : expression')
        version("Added in 2.4")
        deprecatedmethod
        type_(None)
    decorate (self, p):
        """docstring here"""
        print p[1]

Read it something like "define a function named p_statement_expr using a
bunch of functions to decorate the basic function".

It solves a couple problems:

1. "def" introduces the function definition instead of an arbitrary number
   of @-expressions.

2. There is no extra indentation of the main body.

3. The name of the function is known early on.

4. "def"/"decorate" pair up visually much the same as "try"/"except" or
   "if"/"then", though they don't represent alternative blocks of code to be
   executed.

On the minus side it introduces a vertical separation between the function
name and parameter list and introduces a new keyword, "decorate".

>From a parsing standpoint I think it will work.  You'll see either a colon
or a left paren after the function name to distinguish between the two types
of function definition.  I'm not sure if a token needs to be used to
separate the various decorator functions or if requiring a newline and
indentation is sufficient.

Skip


From joewong at mango.cc  Sun Aug 15 22:38:27 2004
From: joewong at mango.cc (Joe Wong)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:38:27 +0800
Subject: SSL TCP server error
Message-ID: <006c01c4833a$1ccc4f30$7f00a8c0@scl01.siliconcreation.com>

Hi,

 I tried to create a SSL TCP server using the ssl() function. It fails everytime with an exception:

socket.sslerror: (1, 'error:140770FC:SSL routines:SSL23_GET_SERVER_HELLO:unknown protocol')

I test the SSL support using HTTPSConnection and it works ok. So I assume it is a server side specific problem? I set both keyfile and certfile parameters to None on my test.   

Regards,

- Joe
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From davidf at sjsoft.com  Fri Aug 20 09:38:03 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:38:03 +0200
Subject: My only complaint about Python
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2041.1093007384.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2041.1093007384.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cg4urt$1iv$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

Ames Andreas (MPA/DF) wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Darren Dale wrote:
> 
> 
>>I love the language. I love the community. My only complaint is that
>>Python for Windows is built with Visual Studio.
> 
> 
> You could look at http://www.python.org/sf/841454.  It certainly needs
> work though ...
> 
> 
But its actually trying to do more than what he's asking. This patch is 
to *cross*-compile python with mingw, compiling it with mingw under 
windows should be easier.

There was an email to python-list saying it was possible here:
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2004-June/225967.html

But unfortunately few details were provided. I've emailed the author to 
ask him for them

David


From avner at skilldesign.com  Mon Aug  9 13:25:48 2004
From: avner at skilldesign.com (Avner Ben)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 19:25:48 +0200
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar, but for what exactly?
In-Reply-To: <4116ac05$1@nntp.zianet.com>
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
	<4115b53a$1@nntp0.pdx.net> <4116239e$1@news.012.net.il>
	<4116ac05$1@nntp.zianet.com>
Message-ID: <4117a6f7$1@news.012.net.il>

Mark Bottjer wrote:

> [snip]
> I, personally, don't like the idea of overloading def in this way. To 
> me, 'def' defines something that looks and acts like a function, just 
> like 'class' defines something that looks and acts like a class, or 
> 'while' defines something which looks and acts like a loop. AProperty is 
> does not act like a function, so using def would be misleading.

Properties do not look like functions but are implemented as functions. 
there is no requirement that a variable must hide behind a property, or 
that it Must allow both read and write access.

> [Ship] 
>     property a:
>       def __init__( s, v):
>         __set__( s, v)

Why property constructor?

> Taking this to the extreme, all existing statement types (class, def, 
> print, del, etc.) could be recast as these generalized statements. We 
> could even allow subclassing of existing statements to modify their 
> behavior (for example, class_def subclassing def to make the new 
> function a class method). Strong Kung-Fu indeed. Scary, but strong.

I recall reading somewhere That the Beta language allowed subclassing 
anything

> Obviously, creating new control constructs is not something we'd want to
> do every day, as it can be a great way to obfuscate code beyond all hope
> of understanding--but the same is true of meta-classes. Just because it 
> *could* be abused doesn't mean that it would be.

IMO creating New Control constructs is a great and Much needed idea.

	Avner.


From iketo2 at netscape.net  Fri Aug 27 21:39:54 2004
From: iketo2 at netscape.net (Isaac To)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 09:39:54 +0800
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<tyf3c28ps1t.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
	<1ry8k0d2az.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <87acwgvy51.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>

>>>>> "Kjetil" == Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no> writes:

    Kjetil> that's a hack, and IMHO not worthy of a Python program.
    Kjetil> not even Perl has anything like that, AFAIK.

Hm... hacks are not for Python?!  We see every kind of hacks
everywhere in Python just like it is in Perl, like (2,) syntax, etc.
Some hacks are good, some are bad, and some are dependent on who is
looking at it.

I'm neutral on whether this particular hack is nice: if one get used
to "pass", one can train onself psychologically that it means "I've
got nothing else to do, pass to the upper level".  It also doesn't
conflict with the previous use of pass.

I don't know how such logic works for others.  At least, a pass
statement in a non-empty suite won't be used otherwise, so you can use
the convention to end suites safely---and in a way that need no change
at all in the Python interpreter.  And you can use it *now*, since it
is implemented in the default Python mode of Emacs already.

Regards,
Isaac.


From sholden at holdenweb.com  Mon Aug 30 08:21:35 2004
From: sholden at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 08:21:35 -0400
Subject: os.popen problem
In-Reply-To: <173c23bb.0408282255.2f1be2ee@posting.google.com>
References: <173c23bb.0408282255.2f1be2ee@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <B%EYc.50422$4o.9163@fed1read01>

Matthew K Jensen wrote:

> Ok, this might seem odd as to why I am doing this in this certain way,
> but it's for a very specific purpose, and in so doing needs to be done
> this way. I am writing code on a winbloze box like so:
> 
> -----------
> import os
> 
> vlvl = os.popen('copy con randomfilename','w')
> vlvl.write('some stuff')
> vlvl.write('some more stuff')
> vlvl.write(chr(0))
> vlvl.close()
> 
> -----------
> 
> At the next to last line, the command is supposed to complete and give
> output which resembles "\t1 file(s) copied.\r\n". Appearantly this is
> not happening. The last line just hangs there, doing nothing. Is there
> something I am supposed to be doing, or is there some concept that has
> either blown over the top of my head or just simply forgot? Any
> feedback is helpful.
> 
Python 2.3.3 (#51, Dec 18 2003, 20:22:39) [MSC v.1200 32 bit (Intel)] on 
win32
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
 >>> import os
 >>>
 >>> vlvl = os.popen('copy con randomfilename','w')
 >>> vlvl.write('some stuff')
 >>> vlvl.write('some more stuff')
 >>> vlvl.write(chr(0))
 >>> vlvl.close()
;oisrulkejhlakjhlkjdh
lkjhlkdjfhglkjdfghldkjh
jhfljksdhldskjghldkjhgldkjgh
^Z
1
 >>> ^Z


C:\Documents and Settings\sholden>more randomfilename
;oisrulkejhlakjhlkjdh
lkjhlkdjfhglkjdfghldkjh
jhfljksdhldskjghldkjhgldkjgh

Note that the "copy" command you start with the os.popen() call is 
specifically reading from the console, and NOT from the standard input. 
Thus everything you write "down the pipeline" disappears into a black 
hole. The copy process won't terminate until you send an EOF (CTRL/Z) on 
the console, and then the program will temrinate normally.

regards
  Steve



From tzot at sil-tec.gr  Fri Aug 20 10:33:34 2004
From: tzot at sil-tec.gr (Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:33:34 +0300
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl>
Message-ID: <om2ci0hbvtsvaifhfpgb3lg5ndr698h61h@4ax.com>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:23:16 +0200, rumours say that Gerrit Muller
<gerrit.muller at embeddedsystems.nl> might have written:

[snip]
>The most 
>positive experiences were Sinclair QL-basic, [snip]

I'll drink to that!

PS If only IBM had initially chosen a Motorola CPU for their PC...
-- 
TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best,
"Tssss!" --Brad Pitt as Achilles in unprecedented Ancient Greek


From http  Sat Aug 28 21:01:40 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 18:01:40 -0700
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xzn4gwgea.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7a1o.1a5d2q410jsn2kN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xisb4xnh5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7c1a.tfdm14p3hclcN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xd61benm9.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj82n3.1ylkr3nierngmN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgpj1l$i0f$06$1@news.t-online.com>
	<7xd61b8uh2.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<mailman.2565.1093723065.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <7x1xhqg3kb.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

"Terry Reedy" <tjreedy at udel.edu> writes:
> 'import x' is syntactic sugar for 'x = __import__('x')'.  I do not see it 
> as necessary that sugar for the common case need cover every possible case. 
> So, how about giving __import__ had an optional param 'signed' defaulted to 
> False, to allow signed =True or signed = CA?

Man, that __import__ thing is ugly.  I think it's better to extend the
syntax, e.g. 
  import x(a,b) => __import__('x', {'a':None, 'b':None})
  import x(a=v1,b=v2)=> __import__('x', {'a':v1, 'b':v2})

so you could say 
    import x(signed)
or
    import x(signed, certfile='mycerts.pem')

or whatever.


From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 12 22:57:35 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:57:35 -0400
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
In-Reply-To: <10hnqqm8h7b3k89@corp.supernews.com>
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
	<60dfb6f6.0408111846.615ee9eb@posting.google.com>
	<3YWdnYxLf--ObofcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<cffbbu$amv$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk> <411ba1db$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<EvadnaCm3bK0NIbcRVn-iQ@powergate.ca> <411bd3f0$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<10hnqqm8h7b3k89@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <X5qdnYVQdNaCs4HcRVn-rA@powergate.ca>

Jeff Shannon wrote:

> Yes, this is personal preference, but it seems that it's a preference 
> shared by many people -- isn't Python supposed to fit my brain, rather 
> than forcing my brain into Python's shape?  The fact that one can get 
> used to @pie-syntax doesn't mean it's intuitive.  

I think it is interesting to compare the two on that issue.

Even some of the core folks talked about having to become used
to the @pie syntax before they decided they didn't mind it.

With decorate:, on the other hand, I don't think anyone except
perhaps those who have forced their brains to fit it would
feel that they have to become used to it.

That, to me, says that decorate: is Pythonic, while @pie is
clearly not.

And I definitely agree with you that if the feature is so
bizarre and shocking that it needs bizarre and shocking
syntax, we're better off leaving it out of Python.  At
least for now, until we've had a cooling off period to
reconsider whether there might not be a less bizarre and
shocking way of doing all this.

-Peter


From skip at pobox.com  Thu Aug  5 23:54:31 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 22:54:31 -0500
Subject: PEP-0318
In-Reply-To: <41122FC2.1080608@interlink.com.au>
References: <41122FC2.1080608@interlink.com.au>
Message-ID: <16659.247.791367.302786@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Anthony> ... here's what I managed [to edit in PEP 318] before a tidal
    Anthony> wave of crap flowed in...

I checked in Anthony's changes to PEP 318 (sent in private email) with very
few modifications.  I simply didn't have enough time to do more this
evening.  I didn't even have the time to read back through the entire
document.

Anybody else who feels like taking a whack at it, feel free.  I'll be out of
Internet reach over the weekend, so it's unlikely I'll be able to do
anything more with it until next week.  Context diffs against v 1.15 would
be best on the off-chance I get inputs from multiple people.  A SourceForge
patch would be the best place to stick such things so other people can see
where your changes are.  Note that I'm not really interested in thirty-leven
new syntax proposals.  What would be helpful are pointers to other documents
and concise summaries of some of the discussions on c.l.py and python-dev.
Incorporation of all or part of

    http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators

into the PEP would also be appreciated.  Try to write objectively.  A PEP
isn't Usenet. <wink>

Note how I'm being optimistic that multiple people will contribute.  Lots of
people have worn out their keyboards on this subject, so I know the energy
is out there.  It just needs to be focused a bit.

Thx,

Skip


From jjl at pobox.com  Sat Aug 14 16:07:09 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 14 Aug 2004 21:07:09 +0100
Subject: The winner of the Python Decorator Poll is...
References: <Ue-dnX0CBNhaEYfcRVn-ig@comcast.com>
	<mailman.1533.1092259988.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4edc17eb.0408112052.1bbd85b3@posting.google.com>
	<xfWdnbEzLpJD5obcRVn-vw@comcast.com> <87acx0p0st.fsf@pobox.com>
	<vsqdna79bfPJaIbcRVn-hg@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <87llghmqky.fsf@pobox.com>

Doug Holton <insert at spam.here> writes:

> John J. Lee wrote:
> > Of course.  *easily*
>  > Er, yup.
> 
> Can you try a non-troll response that involves a complete sentence?

I didn't intend to troll.  Sorry if I came across as rude!

Taking my statements in reverse order, and expanding a little <wink>:

2. I don't question your simple arithmetic but...

1. Though you seem to think it ridiculously beyond the bounds of
possibility, it's very far from obvious that there are not 400 people
out there who read about this poll and supported the option that came
last, but did not vote.  It wouldn't surprise me in the least, in
fact.  Neither of us really has any evidence either way, which I why I
felt like counterbalancing your glib assumption.

I reject your prescriptive grammar, too, so there ;-)


John


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 31 17:12:41 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:12:41 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <loom.20040831T215210-712@post.gmane.org>
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>	<e69d3ed2040	<HBF.20040830aznn@
	<loom.20040831T215210-712@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <ch2pk8$bh2$2@sea.gmane.org>

Steven Bethard wrote:

> I wrote:
> 
>>What you're suggesting is that given:
>>
>>def f1():
>>    __author__ = 'Steve'
>>
>>and
>>
>>def f2():
>>    author = 'Steve'
>>
>>in f1, the assignment to __author__ occurs in the function's namespace, but 
>>in f2, the assignment to author occurs in the local namespace.  Clearly 
>>then, the __xxx__ format (if at the beginning of a function) changes the 
>>namespace to which an assignment applies.
> 
> 
> Note that the parallel for classes would be if, given:
> 
> class F1:
>     __author__ = 'Steve'
> 
> and
> 
> class F2:
>     author = 'Steve'
> 
> that the __author__ assignment in F1 occured in one namespace, while the 
> author assignment in F2 occured in another namespace.  (Something like 
> __author__ only being available from the class object, while author was only 
> available from class instance objects.)  Python could almost certainly be 
> treat __xxx__ variables to work this way, but it's not the way it works 
> *now*.  This is why I say that you're introducing a totally new semantics to 
> __xxx__ assignments.
> 

 From the interpreter's or system programmer's point of view, you are 
absolutely correct.  There would be a profoundly different thing going 
on under the covers. Specifically, __xxx__ assignments that appear at 
the top of function defs would no longer result in local variables. 
That is totally different than it is now, you're right.

But I believe that from the application programmer's point of view, not 
much will change.  That's because of the way (I believe) the majority of 
  us view __xxx__ assignments (inside of functions) now.  When we say

    def foo():
      __author__ = 'Morrow'
      __version__ = '0.1'

we don't care that __author__ and __version__ become local variables 
because foo is most likely not going to use them in its calculation.  So 
we won't care if later they become something else (attributes of foo). 
The semantics of assigning to __author__ or __version__ is the same, in 
the eyes of the application programmer, whether the proposed changes are 
implemented or not.

Paul



From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Mon Aug 23 10:56:56 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:56:56 +0200
Subject: line shift?  (baby steps 2)
In-Reply-To: <6daa8765.0408230412.6db365d6@posting.google.com>
References: <6daa8765.0408230412.6db365d6@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <2oueokFe36qgU2@uni-berlin.de>

Artemisio wrote:
> I have done a small currency calculator. It works and I'm very glad.
> But...I'd like to have a line shift if user types a wrong choice.
> Please, look at the code and output example down here:
> 
> # -*- coding: ISO-8859-1 -*-
> import string
> 
> eudk_currency= 7.47
> dkeu_currency= 0.13
> usdk_currency= 5.93
> dkus_currency= 0.16
> euus_currency= 1.19
> useu_currency= 0.78

As a hint not pertaining to your actual problem: Use a dictionary to
store the values, like this:

currencies = { "EUDK" : 7.47, "DKEU" : 0.13, (...) }

Then you do not have to do if statements like this

if currency_str == "DKEU":
    result= amount_int* dkeu_currency
    print amount_int, "Danish Crowns correspond to", result, "Euro."

(...)

You can directly use the input string as index into the dictionary:

result = amount_int * currencies[currency_str]
print (...)

Reinhold

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From glc at well.com  Sun Aug 15 09:46:56 2004
From: glc at well.com (Greg Chapman)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:46:56 GMT
Subject: Sublassing in C
References: <11wahcesttqxl.dlg@news.kaarsemaker.net>
Message-ID: <q4quh0l0qoud0mj3obbonom0jriuvsmsdi@4ax.com>

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:31:26 +0200, Dennis Kaarsemaker
<spamtrap at kaarsemaker.net> wrote:

>I'm trying to create a subclass of Exception in C, but  cant figure out
>what to use as tp_base in the PyTypeObject struct. Can anybody give me
>directions on where to look or maybe even an answer?

Currently, exceptions have to be old-style classes, so you cannot create a
subclass using the new type-based subclassing.  Instead, you should use
PyErr_NewException, which creates a new Exception subclass with the given name,
base and attributes (despite the first sentence of the documentation, it returns
a new subclass, not a new exception object).

---
Greg Chapman



From catcher at linuxmail.org  Thu Aug 12 20:07:29 2004
From: catcher at linuxmail.org (Robert)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 20:07:29 -0400
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <jN6dnS0Qsszcm4HcRVn-hA@adelphia.com>

"Michael Scarlett" <bitshadow at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25 at posting.google.com...
> There is an amazing article by paul graham about python, and an even
> better discussion about it on slashdot. The reason I point this out,
> is the more I read both articles, the more I realised how we would be
> mutilating the language with that god forsaken @ decorator.
> I don't know about the rest of you, but I learned python and fell in
> love with its syntax and simplicity. Python - just works. So please
> GVR. Don't complicate it. Leave it as is. Work on making it faster,
> not uglier. Work on - in some cases - better algorithms for certain
> modules, not for it to even closely resemble C or perl or god knows
> whateverotherlanguagethereisoutthere. Am i the only one with a
> visceral reaction to this thing???
>

Nope I have the same reaction.




From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Thu Aug 12 10:34:28 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 10:34:28 -0400
Subject: decorator with keyword
In-Reply-To: <cffcir$q5p$02$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <cffcir$q5p$02$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121024260.3440-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Peter Otten wrote:

> [decorator examples]

+2 on this (can I give a +2?).  It's not only pretty, but it addresses my
gripe about decorators being used for too many purposes (by providing a
clean way to supply function attributes).  Additionally, by moving
docstrings into the transform: block, this provides an easy way to
document the generated function, rather than forcing decorators to
preserve docstrings by copying the decoratee's docstring into the
decorated function.

The PythonDecorators wiki doesn't say Guido has specifically shot this 
style down, so it may yet have a chance.



From jmeile at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 24 12:17:06 2004
From: jmeile at hotmail.com (Josef Meile)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:17:06 +0200
Subject: Time-date as an integer
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2271.1093328889.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2271.1093328889.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <412b67ef$1@pfaff2.ethz.ch>

Charles Hixson wrote:
> [...]
> This is the best that I've been able to come up with in getting a 
> date-time as an integer.  It feels like one of the time or date 
> libraries should have a better solution, but if so, I haven't found it.  
> Can anyone suggest a better approach?
What's about epoch seconds? Here is a page where this approach is explained:

http://pleac.sourceforge.net/pleac_python/datesandtimes.html

Regards,
Josef


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Mon Aug 23 14:03:52 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 14:03:52 -0400
Subject: On consensus decision-making (was Re: Alternative decorator
 syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WEDONE?)
References: <mailman.2153.1093185119.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<z-adnRDpSpoTJrXcRVn-iw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <cgdbi8$5re$1@panix2.panix.com>

In article <z-adnRDpSpoTJrXcRVn-iw at powergate.ca>,
Peter Hansen  <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
>
>The voting was merely to narrow down the choices.  It seems pretty
>clear there are now only three candidates in the running, the @pie
>syntax plus J2 and C1.  The latter doesn't yet have an implementation,
>which is almost certainly its biggest disadvantage (and not that more
>people voted for J2 than for it).

According to a python-dev message from Michael Hudson, there's an old
implementation of C1 (the *original* decorator implementation).  ;-)
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From apardon at forel.vub.ac.be  Tue Aug 17 08:22:30 2004
From: apardon at forel.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 12:22:30 GMT
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<56cfb0e3.0408142004.511a8a8e@posting.google.com>
	<2odtceF9itokU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <slrnci3u46.k5.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>

Op 2004-08-17, Sibylle Koczian schreef <Sibylle.Koczian at Bibliothek.Uni-Augsburg.de>:
> Porky Pig Jr schrieb:
>> beliavsky at aol.com wrote in message news:<3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760 at posting.google.com>...
>> 
>>>One of the most commmon reasons programmers cite for not trying Python
>>>is that indentation determines the program flow -- they think its
>>>weird. I think programmers who actually try Python adapt quickly and
>>>do not find the indentation rules to be a problem.
>>>
>> 
>> 
>> Not only it's *not a problem*. I've found it quite useful since it
>> forces you to keep the proper indentation.
>> 
> I think indentation that's only there for human eyes, not for the 
> compiler, can be the reason why you overlook your bugs:
>
> First version:
>
> if (condition) then
>      statement-1;
> statement-2;
> ...
>
> Second version:
>
> if (condition) then
>      statement-1;
>      statement-1a;
> statement-2;
> ...
>
> This isn't Python but Pascal, but you probably wanted the compiler to do 
> exactly what Python _will_ do: execute statement-1a if (and only if) 
> condition is true. I've done this time and again and each time wondered 
> about incorrect results.
>
> Of course this won't happen if you have to use braces or begin - end 
> even for a single statement. But with Pascal or C/C++ that's not enforced.

That is why I prefer modula2 style.

> And those staircases of
>
>          end
>      end
> end
>
> (quite a short example) aren't really beautiful, or are they?


Maybe not, but they do help readability in a whole lot of
cases.

-- 
Antoon Pardon


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Wed Aug  4 11:09:23 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay Brar)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 01:09:23 +1000
Subject: EOL - scanning single-quoted string
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408040940470.8445-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu>
References: <1091625659.4110e2bb6db73@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>	<4110E3B3.8040709@geochemsource.com>	<mailman.1123.1091626404.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408040940470.8445-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <4110FC23.60509@mail.usyd.edu.au>

Christopher T King wrote:

>On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Ajay wrote:
>
>  
>
>>i got the escape character bit, but i still get an error
>>    
>>
>>>>>str='/My Documents/um_ajay.xml'
>>>>>re.subn('/', '\\', str)
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>
>Ah... regex quoting issues.  The '\\' makes a single '\' appear in the 
>string, but being a regex, a single '\' in a string is again interpreted 
>as a backslash.  You will either have to write '\\\\' or use a raw string, 
>r'\\'.  Raw strings pass backslashes untouched, so you only need to 
>backslash it once for the regex.
>
>However, the best solution for your problem is not to use regexes, but to 
>use the os.path module:
>
>  
>
>>>>from os.path import normpath, abspath
>>>>str = '/My Documents/um_ajay.xml'
>>>>normpath(str)
>>>>        
>>>>
>'\\My Documents\\um_ajay.xml'
>  
>
>>>>abspath(str)
>>>>        
>>>>
>'C:\\My Documents\\um_ajay.xml'
>
>normpath() 'tidies up' the path, a task which includes correcting path 
>seperators, amoung other things.  abspath() does the same thing as 
>normpath(), but also resolves relative paths into absolute ones.  Always 
>look to os.path when doing anything involving paths; it probably has the 
>function you want, and is portable across platforms.
>  
>
thanks. works well now


-- 
Ajay Brar
CS Honours 2004
Smart Internet Technology Research Group

http://www.it.usyd.edu.au/~abrar1



From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  6 19:19:40 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 19:19:40 -0400
Subject: Decorator syntax
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1187.1091710773.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1187.1091710773.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4114120d$1@nntp.zianet.com>

Ames Andreas (MPA/DF) wrote:
> Michael Ekstrand wrote:
>>def(staticmethod) somemethod(self, args):
>>    some code
> 
> could you or someone else please enlighten me, as someone who wasn't
> following the decorator syntax discussion, why this syntax was ruled
> out?

I can give *a* reason, though it may have little to do with the actual 
reasoning used by the powers that be. :)

Something similar was proposed way back when print>> was introduced. 
Some asked: "why not use 'print(f) arg, arg, ...' instead of this ugly 
print>>f hack?" The answer was simple: print is a statement, not a 
function, and statement names don't take arguments.

def is also a statement (as is class). "Calling" it, as putting an 
argument list after it implies, makes no sense to me. I would be 
perfectly comfortable with this syntax if it were a function, but it 
just doesn't seem to fit with a statement.

   -- Mark


From brianc at temple.edu  Thu Aug 19 11:14:52 2004
From: brianc at temple.edu (brianc at temple.edu)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:14:52 -0400
Subject: Merging pdf documents with Python
Message-ID: <3db85202.725c82e0.81bf400@po-d.temple.edu>

http://www.reportlab.org/

slight learning curve though...

---- Original message ----
>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:08:13 -0400
>From: "Daryl Middleton" <dmidd at chartermi.net>  
>Subject: Merging pdf documents with Python  
>To: <python-list at python.org>
>
>Can python be used to merge pdf documents into a single pdf
file so that I
>do not have to manually insert each one. Thanks
>
>-- 
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From listserver at tdw.net  Thu Aug 19 10:17:11 2004
From: listserver at tdw.net (Tim Williams)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:17:11 +0100
Subject: Removing Email attachments
References: <b68d2f19.0408181354.43821bd9@posting.google.com>
	<20040819114025.GA11950@setepo.gotdns.org>
Message-ID: <010a01c485f7$383e9ba0$506b81c2@twilliams>


I need to take an email with none or more attachments,  remove attachments
with certain file extensions and then send the remaining email onwards.

The problem is that I can't find out how to remove single attachements,   (I
can add new ones and/or  remove all) .

Am I missing something,  or do I have to create a new email object  from the
remaining bits of the old one ?

(I *have* googled)

TIA




From mattjensen at timetospare.net  Tue Aug 31 01:32:58 2004
From: mattjensen at timetospare.net (Matthew K Jensen)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 22:32:58 -0700
Subject: console window not disappearing with py2exe
References: <173c23bb.0408301410.49b27fe4@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <173c23bb.0408302132.1105a6c3@posting.google.com>

mattjensen at timetospare.net (Matthew K Jensen) wrote in message news:<173c23bb.0408301410.49b27fe4 at posting.google.com>...
> In another one of my silly apps, I'm using 'windows=' in the setup
> script. I can't get the darn console window do disappear. Since the
> said app is going to be used with people that have less-than-average
> knowledge in computers, it is imperative that this window goes away. I
> tried sys.frozen = "windows_exe" and it doesn't work. I'm not sure
> what to do. Please save me!
> 
> -Matt K Jensen

This is emberassing. I'm going to retract this in full because of an
improperly configured setup script. It works now. I don't need anybody
giving me advise on this one. Thanks if anybody read it :)

-Matt K Jensen


From nobody at nowhere.com  Thu Aug  5 13:02:23 2004
From: nobody at nowhere.com (Yannick Turgeon)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:02:23 -0400
Subject: Telnet session
References: <iEPPc.23049$Vm1.463742@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<ceqe62$601$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <NItQc.30773$Jq2.1445319@news20.bellglobal.com>

Hello Eddie,

> What happens if set REMOVEJUNK to False?
Same thing except. It does not remove, in that script, "good" output
(textual). And the first symptom of the problem is not bad output but it's
the fact that Telnet.read_until() is freezing after at a given moment, in
our case on "echo bar7". Without a timeout, the function never return.

It's certainly related to Windows. I'm cooked again! I have to interact with
a windows program (not just send a command and get the ouput but instead (1)
start a program, (2) send a commande, (3) get the result, (4) send another
command based on the precedent result). I tryed first with popen3: no
interaction possible if one of your command depends from a precedent program
answer. Pexpect would do the job but it's not working on Windows. Telnet
would do the job too, but it doesn't seem to work correctly on Windows. I
just looked at Perl telnet lib... and I've got nausea, headache and
urticaria! And I don't even know if it would work better, so...

Thanks for your help. At least I know that my script would work fine on
linux and it's probably Windows related.

Yannick

"Eddie Corns" <eddie at holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:ceqe62$601$1 at scotsman.ed.ac.uk...
> "Yannick Turgeon" <nobody at nowhere.com> writes:
>
> >Hello all,
>
> I don't see anything obviously wrong in the structure, a simpleminded
> translation to linux worked as expected even with a command to generate a
> recursive directory listing which, on my machine, is huge.
>
> What happens if set REMOVEJUNK to False?, I had to do that to see any
output
> but I don't know what Windows generates.  I guess what you're trying to
filter
> out is ANSI control sequences but I suspect you may not have that right
and
> you're removing ALL output.
>
> A minor point, you only need to do the re.compile once, moving it outside
the
> function would be more efficient.
>
> Eddie




From jussij at zeusedit.com  Tue Aug 24 11:25:28 2004
From: jussij at zeusedit.com (Jussi Jumppanen)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 01:25:28 +1000
Subject: Python and C, looking for a C IDE
References: <6f402501.0408240353.2a5b8a84@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <412B5DE8.1BE3@zeusedit.com>

Michael Foord wrote:

> That aside - Pyrex looks the kiddie. Can anyone reccomend a reasonable
> C IDE ? An 'IDE' would be nice, but an editor might be sufficient.

Take a look at the Zeus for Windows programmers editor:

   http://www.zeusedit.com/lookmain.html

Zeus supports Python, C/C++ and almost any other language. Some of 
the programming features include:

  + Code completion and intellisensing
  + Integrated class browser
  + Project/workspace management
  + Fully configurable syntax highlighting
  + Seamless FTP editing
  + Integrated version control using the Microsoft Source Code
     Control (SCC) interface, including CVS integration.
  + Quick Help context sensitive help engine
  + Fully scriptable using Python

There is also a tutorial (see the Start Button, Programs, Zeus for 
Windows, Tutorials) that explains how to setup the Ming compiler 
and debugger (Windows ports of gcc and gdb) to work with Zeus.

Jussi Jumppanen
http://www.zeusedit.com


From nholtz at docuweb.ca  Fri Aug 20 12:50:26 2004
From: nholtz at docuweb.ca (Neal Holtz)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 09:50:26 -0700
Subject: Rita Sue and Bob too
References: <mailman.2010.1092985999.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <639f17f8.0408200850.5a4a5a96@posting.google.com>

"Ben Last" <ben at benlast.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.2010.1092985999.5135.python-list at python.org>> 
> seqToFind = ['Rita','Sue','Bob']
> seqToReplace = ['A','B','C']
> seqToSearch =
> ['Ben','Peter','Guido','Mark','David','Rita','Sue','Bob','Junk','Extra']
> ...
> 
> That last block could also be written as:
> 
> #s ends up with the resulting list
> s = seqToSearch
> s =
> string.join(seqToSearch,joiner).replace(string.join(seqToFind,joiner),string
> .join(seqToReplace,joiner)).split(joiner)
> 
> But that's verging on the obfuscated :)

Very perlish indeed.

But the above fails if the first or last words in seqToFind are
trailing
or leading substrings of other words in seqToSearch.  IE, if> 
seqToSearch =
 ['Ben','Peter','Guido','Mark','David','Rita','Sue','BobbyJoe','Junk','Extra']

So something that fails slightly less often:

def repseq4( names, old, new ):
    s = '\003'; return
((s+s.join(names)+s).replace(s+s.join(old)+s,s+s.join(new)+s,1)).split(s)[1:-1]

It turns out that this is actually faster than the more obvious
methods
(by about 25% (over Jeremy Jones' method) for a names list of 1000
names, replacing the middle 3).
Sure is ugly, though.


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Thu Aug 26 09:28:32 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:28:32 GMT
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>
	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>
	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <t1pri0553fkku55gsov1ivof246okh8rkn@4ax.com>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:00:41 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 21:05:46 +1000, Anthony Baxter
><anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>def foo():
>>    __name__ = '%s_banana'%(__name__) 
>>
>
>
>I'm not sure what you are driving at here, but ...
>
>Aa a practical matter, wouldn't it be nice to be able to use string
>substitution on a docstring placed in its usual location under def
>foo().
>
>That I need to place my __doc__ under the function can't be considered
>a good thing, or intutive thing.
>
>Sort of like having to do transformations after and under the function
>;)
>
>Art

But you can perhaps respond that with a2 the flexibility to put the
doc string where you think it belongs, before and above the function
(and I don't necessarily disagree, in that that it is always where I
find myself putting #comments (though perhaps I am putting them there
in particular to *distinguish* them from a docstring  (where would I
put comments if my docstring were above (perhaps below)))) - 

that you and I will be placing are docstrings differently can be seen
both as a benefit *and as a cost*, of the a2 implmentation.

Art


From matt at pollenation.net  Mon Aug  2 17:50:17 2004
From: matt at pollenation.net (Matt Goodall)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 22:50:17 +0100
Subject: where is yaml ?
In-Reply-To: <878ycxtfqg.fsf@blakie.riol>
References: <878ycxtfqg.fsf@blakie.riol>
Message-ID: <1091483418.13780.5.camel@debian>

On Mon, 2004-08-02 at 23:03 +0200, Wilk wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> It seems that the link for python-yaml on the http://yaml.org main page
> is loose (http://iron.cx/yaml) :-(

Try http://www.pyyaml.org

-- 
     __
    /  \__     Matt Goodall, Pollenation Internet Ltd
    \__/  \    w: http://www.pollenation.net
  __/  \__/    e: matt at pollenation.net
 /  \__/  \    t: +44 (0)113 2252500
 \__/  \__/
 /  \          Any views expressed are my own and do not necessarily
 \__/          reflect the views of my employer.



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 01:01:11 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:01:11 +1000
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <cfo7cg$k7p$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <20040814153534.8AC171E4007@bag.python.org>	<D65D4928-EEBF-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>	<mailman.1687.1092584144.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<frydnbvSiJeXF4LcRVn-oA@giganews.com> <cfo7cg$k7p$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204081522014bb9c988@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:43:30 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Define fragile.  If you mean, easy to break, I don't see it.  There
> would be only one way to define an instance method: name its first
> parameter 'self'.  There would be only one way to define a class method:
> name its first parameter 'klass' or 'cls' (or some other synoynm that we
> can all vote on).  All other methods would be static methods.
> 
> How is that fragile?

Python currently doesn't _care_ about the argument list, and the variable 
names in it.

Adding this sort of behaviour is nasty. How, for instance, would you handle
adding a method to a class at runtime? Do you poke into the newly added 
method to make sure you get it right? Do you not do this?

What about for more complex decorators? Remember, staticmethod and
classmethod are the trivial cases that this feature addresses. How do you
handle the more complex ones?


From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  6 17:45:06 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 17:45:06 -0400
Subject: @decorators
In-Reply-To: <3PCdndlfSrERT47cRVn-hw@powergate.ca>
References: <d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa@posting.google.com>
	<eTMQc.36328$K53.24420@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
	<ufz70gud2.fsf@broadpark.no> <4113c488@nntp.zianet.com>
	<3PCdndlfSrERT47cRVn-hw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <4113fbe3@nntp.zianet.com>

Peter Hansen wrote:
> Mark Bottjer wrote:
> 
> Mark, would your example still be acceptable to you if someone wrote
> it like this?:
> 
>> def sillyFunction( a, b, c):
>>     """\
>>     The silly function does nothing except get "decorated." classmethod
>>     determines the form of the first argument (class, object, or
>>     other). signature changes the call behavior, asserting the types
>>     passed to and returned from the function. Finally, transactional
>>     causes boilerplate code to be executed before and after the function
>>     body, ensuring that either all changes to database are applied, or
>>     none are. Seeing as this function does nothing, this is trivial :).
>>     """
>>     @classmethod
> 
>
>     # PLH 20040806112957: added new decorator here
> 
>>     # PLH 20040806130023: also changed last value     @signature( 
>> None, a=int, b=float, c=dict)
>>     @transactional( database)
>>     pass

FWIW, I considered adding this case, but thought the post was long 
enough already. And I knew someone would bring me to task on it in short 
order anyway. :)

Of course it is still hard to read, but I personally find it easier than 
the prefix syntax for one main reason: the decorators are confined 
inside the function they modify. If the language were to state (for 
example) that all decorators are to appear between the def line and the 
optional docstring, than it becomes easy (easier, anyway) to parse, and 
for the programmer to navigate: find function def; start looking for 
meta stuff; stop looking at the first non-meta statement. No look-ahead 
is required, and no buffering for a declaration not yet started.

> While I find merit in your idea, it's not entirely fair to discard
> the @ syntax because it *can* be written the way you showed, but then
> not to perform the same analysis on your own idea.

I wasn't attempting to discard it. I was attempting to show a border 
case I had not seen discussed anywhere (as others have done with the def 
foo (ARGS) [DECS]: variants). To that end, I tried to show just how bad 
it could be. To make sure it had been considered was the sole intent.

> To be entirely fair, I'm not sure that *any* of the proposed syntaxes
> cannot be written in such a way that they get buggered up by intervening
> whitespace and comments...  nor should this be a sole reason for
> discarding any one.

Agreed. I *personally* find it easier to understand code with the 
decorators infixed than with them prefixed. To me, knowing that 
everything I want to know about a function is somewhere *in* that 
function, as opposed to somewhere *near* it, is quite a powerful aide to 
understanding. YMMV.

   -- Mark


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 16:18:01 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:18:01 +0200
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
	<dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
	<aN5Xc.205341$M95.157379@pd7tw1no>
	<1gj4fb5.607xsc51izh8N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xllg25lkt.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj4u3a.12ttba9fynd6uN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncis152.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
Message-ID: <1gj5bp4.qhup8tldmvebN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Antoon Pardon <apardon at forel.vub.ac.be> wrote:
   ...
> Then python has already deviated from the one obvious way to do it.

Yep, ever since it let you code 2+3 and 3+2 with just the same effect --
which was from day one, and couldn't have been otherwise.  _Preferably_
only one way, but as I said what's preferable can't always be achieved.

Nevertheless, when for some task there _is_ one obvious way to do it,
adding a feature whose main effect would be giving two alternative
obvious ways to do it would be unPythonic.

> I can do:
> 
>   a = a + b   vs    a += b.

Yes you can, and in the general case get very different effects, e.g.:

>>> c=a=range(3)
>>> b=range(2)
>>> a+=b
>>> c
[0, 1, 2, 0, 1]

versus:

>>> c=a=range(3)
>>> b=range(2)
>>> a=a+b
>>> c
[0, 1, 2]

So, which one is the obvious way to do it depends on what 'it' is.  In
some cases it doesn't matter, just like b+a and a+b are going to have
the same effect when a and b are numbers rather than sequences, and
there's nothing Python can do to fight this -- practicality beats
purity.  If you're (when feasible) altering the object to which name 'a'
is bound, a+=b is the obvious way to do it; if you're in any case
rebinding name 'a' and letting the original object stand undisturbed,
'a=a+b' is the one obvious way to do THAT.  Not all objects can be
altered, so the first ones of these tasks isn't always going to be
feasible, of course.

> 
> or
> 
>   a = b + c   vs     a = ''.join(b,c)

You should try out the code you post, otherwise you risk ending up with
code in your face -- ''.join(b, c) will just raise an exception, which
is a VERY different effect from what b + c will give in most cases.
I'll be charitable and assume you meant ''.join((a, b)) or something
like that.

Again, it's only in one very special case that these two very different
'ways to do it' produce the same effect, just like in other different
special cases 'a = b + c' and 'a = c + b' produce the same effect and
there's nothing Python can do about it.

But let's be sensible: if 'it' is joining two strings which are bound to
names b and c, b+c is the only OBVIOUS way to do it.  Building a
sequence whose items are b and c and calling ''.join on it is clearly an
indirect and roundabout -- therefore NOT "the one obvious way"! -- to
achieve a result.  Proof: it's so unobvious, unusual, rarely used if
ever, that you typed entirely wrong code for the purpose...

Nobody ever even wished for there to never be two sequences of code with
the same end-result.  The idea (a target to strive for) is that out of
all the (probably countable) sequences with that property, ONE stands
out as so much simpler, clearer, more direct, more obvious, to make that
sequence the ONE OBVIOUS way.  We can't always get even that, as a+b vs
b+a show when a and b are bound to numbers, but we can sure get closer
to it by respecting most of GvR's design decisions than by offering
unfounded, hasty and badly reasoning critiques of them.


 
> The difference between
> 
>   print somelist.sort()
> 
> and
> 
>   somelist.sort()
>   print somelist
> 
> 
> is IMO of the same order as the difference between
> 
> 
>   print a + b
> 
> and
> 
>   r = a + b
>   print r

For a sufficiently gross-grained comparison, sure.  And so?  In the
second case, if you're not interested in having the value of a+b kept
around for any subsequent use, then the first approach is the one
obvious way; if you ARE, the second, because you've bound a name to it
(which you might have avoided) so you can reuse it (if you have no
interest in such reuse, it's not obvious why you've bound any name...).

In the first case, fortunately the first approach is illegal, the second
one is just fine.  Were they exactly equivalent in effect neither would
be the one obvious way for all reasonable observer -- some would hate
the side effect in the first case, some would hate the idea of having
two statements where one might suffice in the second case.

Fortunately the first approach does NOT do the same thing as the second
(it prints out None:-) so Python sticks to its design principles.  Let
me offer a private libation to whatever deities protect programmers,
that Python was designed by GvR rather than by people able to propose
analogies such as this last one without following through on all of
their implications and seeing why this SHOWS Python is consistent in
applying its own design principles!


Alex
 


From insert at spam.here  Thu Aug 12 18:56:15 2004
From: insert at spam.here (Doug Holton)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:56:15 -0500
Subject: Decorator "platform"
In-Reply-To: <87zn50nll4.fsf@pobox.com>
References: <2nsoofF49frcU1@uni-berlin.de> <87zn50nll4.fsf@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <vsqdnan9bfMMaIbcRVn-hg@comcast.com>

John J. Lee wrote:
> God help us. <0.5 wink>

I'm seeing a pattern.  You respond without reading.  See 
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/PythonDecoratorLibrary


From FBatista at uniFON.com.ar  Fri Aug 27 16:47:31 2004
From: FBatista at uniFON.com.ar (Batista, Facundo)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:47:31 -0300
Subject: My IDLE editor wont work!
Message-ID: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C7890@escpl.tcp.com.ar>

[Dag Hansteen]

# hi, I have a problem on my comp - I'm using win2000, and the IDLE editor
won't open when I try to execute it.
# I tried to uninstall the python versions(yes I had one older installed
also) and reinstalled 2.3.4. That doesn't help.

Execute it from the command line, to see the errors, and tell us.

.	Facundo
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From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 16:09:42 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:09:42 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:09:28 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>The function does *not* get a new namespace!  Let me stress this point a
>>little further.  We would simply be moving __xxx__ variables *out of*
>>the function's local variable namespace to where they belong, the
>>namespace of the function itself --- /the same namespace that __doc__
>>lives in./
> 
> 
> There _is_ _no_ _such_ _namespace_. __doc__ is an attribute of the
> function object.
> 
> You are proposing to add one. How else is __doc__ = __doc__ + 'extra' to work? 
> 
> Please, please look into how python's namespaces work a bit more. This
> isn't super-complex stuff, and the lovely thing about Python is that
> it's _really_ easy to use introspection to see how these things work.

Yes, it doesn't seem all that complex, although I'm not sure that 
everyone reading this understands them and their subtleties.  The 
following is an excerpt from 
http://docs.python.org/tut/node11.html#SECTION0011200000000000000000

"A namespace is a mapping from names to objects. Most namespaces are 
currently implemented as Python dictionaries, but that's normally not 
noticeable in any way (except for performance), and it may change in the 
future. Examples of namespaces are: the set of built-in names (functions 
such as abs(), and built-in exception names); the global names in a 
module; and the local names in a function invocation. In a sense the set 
of attributes of an object also form a namespace."

When I talk about namespaces, I include all of the above, including the 
sense mentioned in the last line.  So an object's attributes constitute 
a namespace too.  Therefore __doc__, being an attribute of the function 
object, is in the function object's /namespace/.  And note that this is 
*not* a new namespace; it's been there all along.

So now to answer your question about how is __doc__ = __doc__ + 'extra' 
going to work.  It's simple.  But first, we need to define a term.  For 
the sake of this discussion, let's say that 1) specifying a docstring, 
and 2) assigning to a top-level [*] __xxx__ variable inside of a 
function def is making a *'declaration'*.  So in the following function 
def, there are three declarations and one simple assignment.

    def foo():
       """ I am a docstring. """      # declaration
       __doc__ = __doc__ + 'extra'    # declaration
       __author__ = 'Morrow'          # declaration
       pi = 3.14                      # not a declaration

Ok? Now declarations would *not* be like local variable definitions. 
Declarations would be executed in the namespace of the object being 
defined.

     "Declarations encountered during the execution of a def
      statement are executed in the namespace of the function
      or method object being defined."

So in the above example, the three declarations would be executed in the 
namespace of the foo function object.  They would *not* create local 
variables [**].  To help visualize this, the following would be exactly 
equivalent:

    def foo():
       pi = 3.14                      # not a declaration

    foo.__doc__ = """ I am a docstring. """
    foo.__doc__ = foo.__doc__ + 'extra'
    foo.__author__ = 'Morrow'



Paul

* ie. not within a subordinate code block, such as a branch of an if 
statement.

** if the Python system was so modified.



From duanek at chorus.net  Thu Aug 19 07:43:34 2004
From: duanek at chorus.net (Duane Kaufman)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 04:43:34 -0700
Subject: IDLE under Cygwin doesn't show toolbar menu
References: <56cfb0e3.0408181608.794fed82@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <59023571.0408190343.19fb969@posting.google.com>

Hi,

I reported this behavior too quite a while back, but no 'easy' fix was
available, though there is a 'work-around', of sorts.

If you start idle without the server (-n option, I _think_) things
work as expected.

Duane

porky_pig_jr at my-deja.com (Porky Pig Jr) wrote in message news:<56cfb0e3.0408181608.794fed82 at posting.google.com>...
> Just downloaded and installed the latest Cygwin distribution which
> includes python 2.3.4. IDLE runs fine but for some reason the toolbar
> menu doesn't show up.
> Like, by default, it starts shell window, but no toolbar. If I type
> 
> idle foobar.py
> 
> it brings both shell and editor windows, but once again, no toolbar on
> either window -- which renders the edtior quite disfunctional.
> 
> Just want to check if anyone else ever ran into this problem and what
> was the workaround -- before I contact Cygwin folks.
> 
> TIA.


From apardon at forel.vub.ac.be  Fri Aug 27 07:33:23 2004
From: apardon at forel.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 11:33:23 GMT
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
	<dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
	<aN5Xc.205341$M95.157379@pd7tw1no>
	<1gj4fb5.607xsc51izh8N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xllg25lkt.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj4u3a.12ttba9fynd6uN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncis152.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<1gj5bp4.qhup8tldmvebN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncitrk7.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<7xk6vlgemp.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<slrnciu0fg.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<1gj6eil.hgzr1l125qaomN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <slrnciu703.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>

Op 2004-08-27, Alex Martelli schreef <aleaxit at yahoo.com>:
> Antoon Pardon <apardon at forel.vub.ac.be> wrote:
>    ...
>> Fine practicality beats purity, but then the proponents shouldn't
>> put that much weight on consistency, because practicality breaks
>> consistency.
>
> No: "but special cases aren't special enough to break the rules".  No
> rule was broken by introducing += and friends.
>
>
>> In this case I think the practicality of method chaining beats
>> the purity of not allowing side-effects in print statements and
>> of having only one obvious way to do things.
>
> You think one way, GvR thinks another, and in Python GvR wins.  Go
> design your own language where what you think matters.

Why the fuss over the chosen decorator syntax if  GvR
wins anyhow.  Why don't you go tell all those people
arguing decorator syntax that they should design their own
language where what they think matters.

If you think I shouldn't voice an opinion here because GvR
wins anyhow and my opinion won't matter fine. Just say so
from the beginning. Don't start with pretending that you
have good arguments that support the status quo because
all that matters is that GvR prefers it this way.
All good arguments in support are just a coincidence in
that case.

>> I don't see that much difference in the frustration of having
>> to write: 
>> 
>>   t = f(x)
>>   v[t] = v[t] + 1
>
> You're repeating (necessarily) the indexing operation, which may be
> unboundedly costly for a user-coded type.

That repetion is just pythons inabilty to optimise.

>> and the frustration of having to write
>> 
>>   lst = f(x)
>>   lst.sort()
>>   lst.reverse()
>
> Here, no operation is needlessly getting repeated.

Yes there is, the operation to find lst from the local dictionary.
Although it wont be unboundedly costly.

> If you don't see much difference between forcing people to code in a way
> that repeats potentially-costly operations,
> and forcing a style that
> doesn't imply such repetitions, I wonder how your language will look.

I'm sure that if I ever find the time to do so, you won't like it.

> Still, I'm much happier thinking of you busy designing your own
> wonderful language, than wasting your time and yours here, busy
> criticizing what you cannot change.

If you don't want to waste time, just state from the beginning
that this is how GvR wanted it and people won't be able to
change it.

You shouldn't start by arguing why the language as it is is as
it should because that will just prolong the discussion as
people will give counter arguments for what they think would
be better. If you know that, should people not be persuaded
by your arguments, you will resort to GvR autority and declare
the arguments a waste of time, you are better of puttings
GvR autority that can't be questioned on the table as soon
as possible.

-- 
Antoon Pardon


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug 20 07:21:03 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 07:21:03 -0400
Subject: Feature Request: Current time in traceback
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.20.11.02.31.742207@thomas-guettler.de>
References: <pan.2004.08.20.11.02.31.742207@thomas-guettler.de>
Message-ID: <EeCdneSp2PC7Q7jcRVn-oA@powergate.ca>

Thomas Guettler wrote:

> I think it would be good, if the current time
> would be in the traceback.
> 
> This would make it easier to read logfiles with
> tracebacks of python scripts.
> 
> I know that I can write a custom exception handler,
> but why not make it the default?

Two thoughts on why not:

1. Most loggers already write the timestamp before *anything*
that is written, so this would be duplicated information.
(Actually, I'm curious what logfile you have that *doesn't*
have this info already.)

2. This is the first time I've heard anyone suggest that
it's a common use case to actually want the traceback
to contain a timestamp.  I think normally tracebacks are
examined immediately when a human is present.  When they
are logged and it might be important to know the time, see 1.

-Peter


From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Fri Aug 20 04:45:40 2004
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:45:40 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4125b20e$0$29681$636a15ce@news.free.fr>

Paul McGuire wrote:
> There are a number of messages on the python-dev mail list that indicate
> that Guido is looking for some concensus to come from this list as to what
> *one* alternative syntax for decorators we would like him to consider in
> place of the @ syntax that is currently in 2.4a2.
> 

My vote is F, F and F.
Bruno



From indigo at bitglue.com  Mon Aug 23 21:15:26 2004
From: indigo at bitglue.com (Phil Frost)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:15:26 -0400
Subject: How does a "script" differ from a "program" or "subroutine"?
In-Reply-To: <cge1h0$8qd@odbk17.prod.google.com>
References: <cge1h0$8qd@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <20040824011526.GC834@unununium.org>

A subroutine is another name for "procedure", "function", or "method".
They are made like this:

def fu():
  ...

A program can contain any number of subroutines, along with classes,
variables, etc.

A script is just a program, but has the implication that it's a simple
program for a simple task.

On Mon, Aug 23, 2004 at 05:18:40PM -0700, tdi wrote:
> Ok, stupid question for the day. I'm reading the interview with Steve
> Moret and he says: "Once a lot of scripts started going in we knew
> there was no way we could back out of using Python."
> 
> I'm just getting into Python and am wondering if I'm missing something
> or this is just a semantic issue.
> 
> Thanks.
> -Ted


From martindemello at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 06:35:51 2004
From: martindemello at yahoo.com (Martin DeMello)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:35:51 GMT
Subject: Decorator alternatives: Newbie perspective
Message-ID: <bukVc.159363$J06.45753@pd7tw2no>

As a very new newbie, I'm staying out of the decorator discussion;
however, since there was a lot of talk about how readable the new syntax
would be to newbies, I went over to the wiki page and took a look at all
the proposed alternatives.

The only one I found readable-at-a-glance was J4 - coming from a
non-python background, it's a really attractive syntax, though it's the
first place I've seen indentation without a :

Anyway, I've got nothing invested in python as yet, so I'll happily
learn whatever syntax gets adopted - I just thought the perspective
would be helpful.

martin


From peter_jacobi at gmx.net  Tue Aug  3 04:17:15 2004
From: peter_jacobi at gmx.net (Peter Jacobi)
Date: 3 Aug 2004 01:17:15 -0700
Subject: More charset troubles (Re: Codecs for ISO 8859-11 (Thai) and
	8859-16 (Romanian))
References: <efabc1be.0407270310.40dbd80@posting.google.com>
	<biteg0dko3sbp7el7etlhtm7djonnf7etq@4ax.com>
	<efabc1be.0407311057.68cdbc29@posting.google.com>
	<410c2827$0$24830$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<efabc1be.0408010830.2128cf68@posting.google.com>
	<410D7AB5.9040100@v.loewis.de>
	<efabc1be.0408020219.11dcf0d7@posting.google.com>
	<410E4B49.7030805@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <efabc1be.0408030017.7b43c479@posting.google.com>

Hi Martin, All,

"Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote in message 
> Therefore, it would be a protocol violation (strictly speaking)
> if one would use iso-8859-11 in, say, a MIME charset= header.

Strictly speaking, there are some more dark corners to check.
All ISO charsets should be, strictly speaking, qualified by year. And
in fact there were some prominent changes, e.g. in 8859-7 (greek).
What to do of them?

Looking around:
- the RFC references a fixed year old version
- Unicode mapping files and libiconv track the newest version
- IBM ICU4C provides all versions
- Python (not by planning, I assume) has a "middle" version with
some features of the old mapping table (no currency signs) and some
features of the new (0xA1=0x2018, 0xA2=0x2019)

Weird.

Best Regards,
Peter Jacobi


From johng2001 at rediffmail.com  Mon Aug  2 19:11:13 2004
From: johng2001 at rediffmail.com (John)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 16:11:13 -0700
Subject: New to Python/Programming
References: <10gsujk1og2gkbf@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <ba129ce7.0408021511.d9045d0@posting.google.com>

Mark <m.tiesman1 at charter.net> wrote in message news:<10gsujk1og2gkbf at corp.supernews.com>...
> Hello.  I am new to programming and Python and was wondering if someone 
> could help get me started.  I picked Python to start learning to prgram 
> because of some things I have read about it (easy to learn, object 
> oriented, clear syntax, etc...).  Can anyone assist in getting me 
> started with learning to program and Python?  Recommended reading 
> material?  Online tutorials?  Recommended development tools (wxpython, 
> pythonwin, etc...)?  I am a network admin by trade and have done little 
> programming except for the occasional script or router config.  this is 
> something that has always interested me, but don't have the time to take 
> any formal classes.  Thanks for the help.

I really haven't read any books. All I used was online tutorials.
Python probably the best teach your self documentation online compared
to any languages I know.

A LOT of good online docs included in ActivePython. PythonWin is a
very good IDE.

Lots of links here
http://www.python.org/doc/Intros.html
I listed some below that I am familiar with. I see that the number has
grown since I last checked. So decide by yourself.

Begin with
Non-Programmers Tutorial For Python (ActivePython)
How to Think Like a Computer Scientist
(http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/thinkCSpy/)
"Instant Python" (http://www.hetland.org/python/instant-python.php)
looks like a good start

Intermediate
Python Tutorial (included in all Python distributions)

Advanced
Dive Into Python (ActivePython)


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 31 09:23:02 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:23:02 -0400
Subject: has_method
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2664.1093957984.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2664.1093957984.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <BPCdnV5aVucl5qncRVn-iw@powergate.ca>

Gandalf wrote:
> 
> Does anyone knows how to tell if an object has a method with a given 
> name? How can I access that method?
> 
> For attributes, it is easy:
> 
> class A(object):
>    a = 12
>    b = 'Python'
> 
> a = A()
> a.__dict__.has_key('a')   # True
> a.__dict__.has_key('b')   # True
> a.__dict__.has_key('c')   # False
> 
> But it won't work for methods. Thanks in advance.

Don't access __dict__ directly.  In fact, most of the time
the presence of the __ underscores is to warn you that you
are doing something unusual... here's the better way:

if callable(getattr(a, 'b')):
     print 'has a method called b'
else:
     print 'no method called b'

getattr(obj, name) retrieves the attribute, and callable()
checks if it's a method (roughly speaking... not quite but
good enough for your purposes I believe).  Look in the docs
for the __builtin__ module to learn about these and other
such useful functions. 
http://docs.python.org/lib/built-in-funcs.html#built-in-funcs

-Peter


From ml at dynkin.com  Tue Aug 10 03:22:51 2004
From: ml at dynkin.com (George Yoshida)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:22:51 +0900
Subject: Python equivalent to a C trick
In-Reply-To: <1d7b6d0d.0408092255.1177908e@posting.google.com>
References: <1d7b6d0d.0408092255.1177908e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cf9t42$2310$1@dojima-n0.hi-ho.ne.jp>

Dan wrote:
> Is there a python equivalent of this trick in C?
> 
> Logic_Test ? True_Result : False_Result

Logic_Test and True_Result or False_Result
would be a Python counterpart.

> Example:
> printf( "you have %i %s", num_eggs, num_eggs > 1 ? "eggs" : "egg" );

So the exmaple is converted to:
print "you have %d %s"%(num_eggs, (num_eggs > 1) and "eggs" or "egg")

But be warned that if True_Result is evaluated as False(e.g. True_Result 
is an empty string), this doesn't work.

If you don't know what object is considered False in Python, check the 
following document.

* 2.3.1 Truth Value Testing
   http://docs.python.org/lib/truth.html

--
George


From http  Sun Aug 22 14:21:39 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 11:21:39 -0700
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<7xk6vsgh3i.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<278de0e.0408220642.3c2274a0@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <7x657b11ak.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss) writes:
> That's a surprise! I didn't know about Lisp, so I did a quick search
> in Google and I found this quote from CMUCL website:
> 
> "a sophisticated native-code compiler which is capable of powerful
> type inferences, and generates code competitive in speed with C
> compilers."

Heh, amazingly enough, the compiler subsystem of CMUCL also, by complete
coincidence, happens to be called Python.  

> Has anyone tried to learn from this experience? Could this technology
> be used with Python?

I think Lisp compiler techniques can be used for Python, but some
parts of Python semantics are messier to compile.  That's no big
surprise; Lisp semantics evolved over the years directly in response
to the needs of Lisp compilers.  I think Python will probably evolve
the same way and I hope PyPy is deployable soon, since that will speed
up compiler development a lot.  I think we should consider a
semi-moratorium til then on new language features that might affect
compilation.


> "There's another guy I'd also like to invite, a Lisp expert, if that's
> ok with you.  He's been interested in writing a Python compiler for a
> while.  I'll ask him if he wants to join, but he might not."
> 
> What happened?

I don't remember what that was about, but I can guess which guy I must
have been thinking of.  He's still around and used to read this newsgroup
sometimes.


From Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com  Mon Aug  9 07:04:07 2004
From: Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com (Ames Andreas (MPA/DF))
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 13:04:07 +0200
Subject: Queue qsize = unreliable?
Message-ID: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA1F@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>

Hi,

Jeff Shannon wrote:

> No you don't.  You simply execute a non-blocking get(), and be
> prepared to catch the Queue.Empty exception.  Similarly, if you want
> a non-blocking producer, then you execute a non-blocking put() and
> catch the Queue.Full exception.

I've actually read the docs some time ago, but I've also read the
source.  I think the problem is here that "non-blocking" isn't very
well defined.

In the sense that the consumer won't wait until something gets
available from an empty Queue you are absolutely right with calling
Queue.get(False).  But if you look at the source you will find that
the first thing that's done in Queue.get() is aquiring a mutex/cv
lock.  That's potentially quite blocking as far as I am concerned.

With CPython's assertions about atomicity of certain list operations
it's possible to implement a lock free queue that is even usable for
the single producer or single consumer case.  That's not to say
anything against the standard libraries Queue implementation because
it presumably does the right thing for the general case.  OTOH, a
single thread within a select-loop (single producer/consumer) feeding
a bunch of workers shouldn't be too exotic either.

> That's really the only reliable way to tell whether the queue is
> empty or full, anyhow...

I don't understand why this is more reliable than what I described in
my scenario.  If, for example, you have a single consumer then:

if !q.empty():
   reliableCode()
else
   unreliableCode()

should be absolutely okay.


cheers,

andreas


From artur_spruce at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 25 04:22:47 2004
From: artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 01:22:47 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <b840abf4.0408250022.3856c7f1@posting.google.com>

"Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<jQHUc.1529$2L3.505 at newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....

32 here. I discovered Python in early 2003 thanks to Bruce Eckel's
mention of it in "Thinking in Java" (something like "becoming my
favorite programming language"). No opportunity to use it as my main
programming language so far but I use it for helper tools and for
personal stuff.

AdSR


From Sibylle.Koczian at Bibliothek.Uni-Augsburg.de  Tue Aug 10 07:39:07 2004
From: Sibylle.Koczian at Bibliothek.Uni-Augsburg.de (Sibylle Koczian)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:39:07 +0200
Subject: MySQLdb select
In-Reply-To: <2nh4i8Fpn24U1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <lGIOc.4961$AY5.4762@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>	<ceg5ca$ftn$1@newshispeed.ch>	<9RPOc.2792$LI7.1058@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>	<21064255.0408020908.41357e52@posting.google.com>	<mailman.1064.1091481067.5135.python-list@python.org>	<2n9gmuFuhk8kU1@uni-berlin.de>	<ggbvg05qaa0n04675jof14l8oo1c908pkl@4ax.com>	<2nbn3pFv4865U1@uni-berlin.de>	<gmv1h0tbk1iujk2nssjtrankri3tqveh6c@4ax.com>	<2nembjF2dr7U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<mailman.1224.1091730686.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2nh4i8Fpn24U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <2nrqerF3p1jhU1@uni-berlin.de>

Sibylle Koczian schrieb:
> Andy Todd schrieb:
> 
>> It's a bug. I think it is a bug in MySQL. I'm using 4.0.18 on Debian 
>> and an interactive session shows the problem;
>>
[snip]

>> Ta-da. Of course, this may have already been notified to MySQL AB, I'd 
>> check their web site (http://www.mysql.com) or try one of their 
>> mailing lists.
>>
> Will do. Thank you. I never thought of trying this directly in MySQL, 
> always took it for a problem between MySQL and Python. I'll check the 
> MySQL newsgroup first, as it's in German.
> 
Not really a bug, possibly no very good design decision (not new with 
MySQL). From the manual:

"13.1.3 Comparison Functions and Operators
[snip]
MySQL compares values using the following rules:
[snip]
     * If one of the arguments is a TIMESTAMP or DATETIME column and the 
other argument is a constant, the constant is converted to a timestamp 
before the comparison is performed. This is done to be more 
ODBC-friendly. Note that the is not done for arguments in IN()! To be 
safe, always use complete datetime/date/time string when doing comparisons."

If a date column is treated the same way, it's clear: "=" compares the 
date column with a timestamp with time part 0 and gets true; IN compares 
the date with a string containing '00:00:00' and gets false.

Regards,
Koczian



From mcfletch at rogers.com  Thu Aug 26 12:35:02 2004
From: mcfletch at rogers.com (Mike C. Fletcher)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:35:02 -0400
Subject: 3D geometry module?
In-Reply-To: <412e0951$0$6157$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>
References: <412e0951$0$6157$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>
Message-ID: <412E1136.4060705@rogers.com>

Will McGugan wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Is there a general purpose 3D geometry module for Python? I would like 
> to be able to read / write 3D models and perform per vertex / per face 
> operations on them.

Pivy gives you an Inventor mechanism for loading .iv and .wrl (VRML97) 
files, not sure how it handles exposing faces/points, but I'd imagine 
it's fairly straightforward.

OpenGLContext will read/write VRML97 files, and (though it's not set up 
for it as an API feature) let you process the vertices/faces (there's 
code in there that will tessellate the faces, for instance, though you 
need an OpenGL context to do it), see the IndexedFaceSet implementation 
for example code.

There is at least one module that loads 3DS files.

You could use Blender's in-program scripting support for any format it 
supports.

I think the U of Waterloo people have a .obj loader, but I'm not sure if 
it's open-source or not.

Don't think anyone has a 3DSMax .ASC loader, (which would be really nice).

> Failing that, are there vector / matrix / quaternion classes I can 
> make use of?

I tend to use Numpy for vector and matrix.  Both PyOpenGL and 
OpenGLContext have quaternion classes available, there's a few more in 
various other packages.

Have fun,
Mike

________________________________________________
  Mike C. Fletcher
  Designer, VR Plumber, Coder
  http://www.vrplumber.com
  http://blog.vrplumber.com



From tzot at sil-tec.gr  Mon Aug 16 07:44:45 2004
From: tzot at sil-tec.gr (Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:44:45 +0300
Subject: Trouble with file.seek/file.tell on Win32?
References: <16671.45400.965715.943437@enthought.hathway.com>
	<1f7befae04081512496c6f2727@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.1709.1092631063.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<h551i0l9jhb3r72luh66utuol0mm6oair9@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <0b71i094u1t1758o2q3d78vecqbbho2fe4@4ax.com>

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:12:54 +0300, rumours say that Christos "TZOTZIOY"
Georgiou <tzot at sil-tec.gr> might have written:

[snip correcting myself]

>The string "hello\nthere\n" written to a *text* file, has:
>
>12 bytes on *nix
>14 bytes on Windows/DOS
>12 bytes on OS/X
>

In all cases, if you open the file as text and do a .readline(), you
read a string of length 6; however, only in the Windows/DOS case, f.tell
returns 7, not 6.
-- 
TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best,
"Tssss!" --Brad Pitt as Achilles in unprecedented Ancient Greek


From olivier.boudevilleNOSPAM at online.fr  Fri Aug  6 13:21:17 2004
From: olivier.boudevilleNOSPAM at online.fr (Olivier Boudeville)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 19:21:17 +0200
Subject: Default list parameter issue
In-Reply-To: <cf0c87$p1v$06$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <cf0c08$2n2$1@apollon.grec.isp.9tel.net>
	<cf0c87$p1v$06$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <cf0emq$3sm$1@apollon.grec.isp.9tel.net>

Oh, thanks a lot Peter, I did not know about it and was totally stuck.

IMHO, this 'feature' is counter-intuitive. Maybe it allows to write in 
some cases simplier or more efficient functions, but there are enough 
traps not to add more of them, with this kind of side-effects.

I believed, with filter, list comprehension and so on, that python was 
making some steps towards 'functional programming' and declarative 
languages (sorry if the translations are not accurate). It would have 
led to more robust code. It is certainly not that way that recursive 
functions will be easy to write and understand (but it is just my 
opinion) !

I do not find/wish this behaviour is 'pythonic', but of course it is a 
matter of taste.

Thanks again nevertheless, it helped me a lot !

Olivier.


Peter Otten wrote:
> Olivier Boudeville wrote:
> 
> 
>>I do not understand why using an empty list as default parameter results
>>  in such a different behaviour.
> 
> 
> You are not alone.
> 
> http://www.python.org/doc/faq/general.html#why-are-default-values-shared-between-objects
> 
> Peter



From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Thu Aug 12 21:42:58 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 21:42:58 -0400
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
Message-ID: <10ho7626f5f3f74@news.supernews.com>


"Nick Patavalis" <npat at efault.net> wrote in message
news:slrncho5aq.pfh.npat at gray.efault.net...
> On 2004-08-13, Michael Scarlett <bitshadow at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Python needs drastic performance improvement if it is to scrap-off the
> "scripting language" stigma.

More performance would be helpful. There are a number
of projects that are working toward that end, of which
the most visible is the PyPy project. Jim Hughnin claims
that he's getting substantial improvements with his port
to the .Net framework, but see Fredrick Lundh's August
4 post on the subject.

As far as I'm aware, the biggest current performance
sink is function and method call overhead. Lookup for
module and built-in level variables is also a significant
time sink - and both module level and builtin identifiers
are used quite frequently.

Another thing to notice is the garbage collection
algorithm. Python uses reference counting as the
basic algorithm, which wasn't that bad a choice
a decade ago. Today real garbage collection
technology has outstripped it so that maintaining
the reference counts is another time sink.

The descriptor technology in new style classes
is a stunning techincal achievement, but in the
worst case it requires a full scan of the class
hierarchy before the mechanism can decide if
it's appropriate to insert an attribute into an
instance or invoke a property.

> The only way to get these improvements is
> making it possible for a python implementation
> to produce *efficient* *compiled* code.

I think there are lots of people that would dispute
you on that. Current Java environments run close
to C++ performance due to the JIT compilers
that are built into the runtimes. Current JIT
technology doesn't require pre-declaration of
variable types; it's perfectly happy to insert checks
at appropriate points so that it can reuse code when
the object types don't change (which they don't
most of the time.)

John Roth


> Just my 2c
> /npat
>




From maney at pobox.com  Thu Aug 19 00:56:26 2004
From: maney at pobox.com (Martin Maney)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 04:56:26 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Calling __init__ for all mixins
References: <cfvr8l$56q$1@wheel2.two14.net>
	<mailman.1908.1092866218.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cg1btq$md7$1@wheel2.two14.net>

Shalabh Chaturvedi <shalabh at cafepy.com> wrote:
> The new-style super mechanism might indeed solve your problem. In the 
> snippet that you mention, super(NewStyleOnly, self).__init__() would 
> only call A.__init__(). But A.__init__ should itself have a super call 
> of the form:

> def __init__(self):
>     super(A, self).__init__()   # A's super call

> Now *that* will call B.__init__(), which should itself have a super call 

I will be dipped in shit.  So let me see... super(this_here_class,
self) can and will resolve to a class that is not in any sane meaning
of the word a super class of this_here_class, but rather a co-base of
it?  This is either brilliant or pure crack.  I'll have to ponder it
for a good long while.

> http://www.python.org/2.2.3/descrintro.html#cooperation

Brilliant.  Crack.  Brilliant.  Crack. ... Luminiferous Aether!

Was this chosen specifically to confuse anyone familiar with OO
terminology as used in other languages?  <wink>

> Any class wanting to participate in this technique must be new-style.

Which brings me back to the original motivation: any nice tricks for
doing this without NewSpeek classes?  Maybe in a year or so I can get
all the production machines upgraded; for now, I have to write to the
subset that works across 2.1, 2.2, and, mostly just as a nod to that
future so far, 2.3 (I frankly haven't the time to do much worrying
about 2.4 yet, and don't expect to any time soon.  It would be nice to
have only one or two machines to take care of and enough free time to
keep up to date with every release.)

-- 
Remember the refrain:  We always build on the past;
the past always tries to stop us.  Freedom is about stopping the past,
but we have lost that ideal.  -- Lawrence Lessig


From ggg at zzz.it  Sat Aug  7 09:51:56 2004
From: ggg at zzz.it (deelan)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 15:51:56 +0200
Subject: Python Win32 & TWAIN scanning?
In-Reply-To: <chUQc.27895$zc4.9670440@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <chUQc.27895$zc4.9670440@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <Y85Rc.7764$B06.3340@news.edisontel.com>

S. David Rose wrote:

> Hello everyone.
>   I am very much enjoying learning python.  I am fiddling with a project
> that I've decided to use on the Win32 platform.  I'd like to be able to
> scan a document as a graphic and save it thru Python to a file.  I believe
> that on Windows, all scanning is done thru the TWAIN interface.  I'd like
> to use a USB scanner.  I've googled for info. regarding Python, PIL, and
> scanners but haven't seen anything related to what I'm looking for.  Can
> anyone out there 'bump' me in the right direction please?
let's try again with google:
<http://www.google.com/search?q=python+twain>

hope this helps.

cheers,
deelan.

-- 


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Thu Aug 12 13:03:19 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:03:19 GMT
Subject: PEP318
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<20040812090056.00001e31@titan>
	<7ttmh0t8c3cogtbhhnp1ohqu8b51pda461@4ax.com>
	<roy-DC33F4.12335012082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <k98nh0pfqsedoisj6ou0rm85a9ir4t7a0v@4ax.com>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:33:50 -0400, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:

>Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
>> I must say that after days of waffling, and I think an honest effort
>> to accept where things were going, I woke this morning hating
>> @decorator.
>> 
>> The existing syntax for this kind of transformation is, in fact,
>> exactly what one would expect:
>> 
>> foo=staticmathed(foo).
>> 
>> That is the universal langauge for transformations.  And when we try
>> to explain to anybody what it is that @decorator means, we go back to
>> the pseudo code that is in fact the existing syntax.
>
>I'm with Arthur.

Yes and no. 

I am contendingt that that staus quo (pre 2.4 alpha2), all things
considered, is the best we are going to do, realistically.

Within the framwork of Python as it is, and without making changes to
Python as it is out of proportion to the need that is being addressed.

I certainly thing that @decorator is a chnage out of proportion to the
need being addressed.

But you are proposing a non-starter, which implicitly rejects the
status quo.  And proposes other changes out of proportion to the need
being addressed.

>
>One of the objections to:
>
>def foo ():
>   whatever
>foo = decorator (foo)
>
>is that you have to type the word "foo" three times.  

Big f**king deal - all things considered. ;)

Art


From David  Thu Aug 19 23:11:05 2004
From: David (David)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:11:05 -0600
Subject: stopping windows services
References: <cg3lgl$eou$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <fqqai0pp6tgumnoimbfapb1q1odg6irtqr@4ax.com>

Get WService from  http://starship.python.net/crew/mhammond. Then, for
example:

import WService
import time

listener = WService.WService("Network Associates McShield")
listener.status(1)
if listener.status(0) != 'STOPPED':
    print "Stopping Network Associates McShield..."
    listener.stop()
    time.sleep(5)
    listener.status(1)

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:52:33 -0400, Bart Nessux
<bart_nessux at hotmail.com> wrote:

>Can Python be used to stop windows services? I'm writing a script to 
>automaically remove some troublesome Symantec software, but before 
>running the main removal script, I need to kill some services.
>
>Thanks,
>Bart



From pythos  Sat Aug 21 14:59:36 2004
From: pythos (pythos)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:59:36 -0400
Subject: Question about importing modules
Message-ID: <u76fi0l133m45cb37flh4pma2sf44h8l9r@4ax.com>

Newbie at python (but not programming) here...

I have a program that has "import os" at the top, and then later a call to
utime() is made.  The python interpreter says "name 'utime' is not defined".
But if I change "utime(...)" to "os.utime(...)" then it works fine.  Perhaps I
am expecting the "import os" statement to work the same way as "import
<package_name>.*" does in Java.  So is it the case that if I write "import os"
in python, then I still need to write "os.utime(...)"?  Or is there something
else wrong?  Thanks.



From len-1 at telus.net  Tue Aug 17 12:08:48 2004
From: len-1 at telus.net (Lenard Lindstrom)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:08:48 GMT
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
References: <mailman.1661.1092519005.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7x7js1i887.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<slrnchug4m.n0d.npat@gray.efault.net> <zn4w2y3g.fsf@telus.net>
	<972ec5bd.0408152037.c50bcee@posting.google.com>
	<d61q94e7.fsf@telus.net> <slrnci39ej.1h8.npat@gray.efault.net>
Message-ID: <smalsq5p.fsf@telus.net>

Nick Patavalis <npat at efault.net> writes:

> On 2004-08-16, Lenard Lindstrom <len-1 at telus.net> wrote:
> >
> > As for doing it in Python, coroutines can be implemented using 
> > threads.
> >
> 
> But threads cost! And how much they cost depends on the operating
> system. Coroutines cost close to nothing, and are O/S independent. The
> only reason to use O/S threads is if you need preemption, and if you
> want to cater for parallel execution.
> 
I do not consider using threads to implement coroutines a practical
solution. It was alluded to in a posting by Tim Peters giving his take
on generators, coroutines and continuations. The case he mentioned was
more than likely a demonstration or example than an actual production
module.

Lenard Lindstrom
<len-l at telus.net>


From cappy2112 at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 18:37:39 2004
From: cappy2112 at yahoo.com (Tony C)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 15:37:39 -0700
Subject: ASPN Python cookbook in a chm
References: <mailman.2345.1093432533.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <8d3e714e.0408261437.3b53c413@posting.google.com>

dody <dody at postaccesslite.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.2345.1093432533.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> ASPN Python cookbook in a .chm file
> ===================================
> 
> last updated: 25 August 2004
> 
> http://miaw.tcom.ou.edu/~dody/aspnpython.chm


Thanks a lot !!!
This should be included in the next Python distribution!

Would you mind posting the script tha mde the CHM file ? (unless you
did it in Perl) :-)


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Mon Aug 16 03:05:28 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 07:05:28 GMT
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
References: <972ec5bd.0408141032.385fe115@posting.google.com>
	<cfn0oa$112$1@news.uni-kl.de>
	<972ec5bd.0408152033.19fdcba4@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Y0ZTc.10343$M8.8263@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"Timothy Fitz" <firemoth at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:972ec5bd.0408152033.19fdcba4 at posting.google.com...
> Dominic <nomail at nospam.no> wrote in message
news:<cfn0oa$112$1 at news.uni-kl.de>...
> > > values. I am currently writing a real time strategy game where I have
> > I have written a simple 2D-real-time vehicle simulator in Python
> >    (+ graphics library Allegro), using chained generators
> > which works well enough.
> >
> > If your game is more ambitious, spend some time designing
> >   a good architecture and specify your components' interfaces.
> > Then you could generate your code-skeleton from that;
> > simple generators should be sufficient to implement
> > your methods which are then driven by your architectures
> > "execution model".
> >
> > ciao,
> >   Dominic
>
> It really was never an issue of "Python can't handle this." it was
> more of an issue of "Python should more openly support this." I am
> championing generators because they make programming SO much easier in
> cases, and people really just don't use them outside if list
> generation, which saddens me.

Have you looked at SimPy?  This is a discrete event simulation package in
pure Python, using generators in simulation objects to implement the
objects' behavior, while managing state, blocking on waits between objects,
etc.  I think this may be more in the realm you are thinking, beyond simple
"list generation."

-- Paul





From adurdin at gmail.com  Tue Aug 31 21:47:14 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:47:14 +1000
Subject: has_method
In-Reply-To: <41347BC1.5020407@geochemsource.com>
References: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C78AD@escpl.tcp.com.ar>
	<41347BC1.5020407@geochemsource.com>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a04083118476031cbcc@mail.gmail.com>

From: Gandalf <gandalf at geochemsource.com>
You are right - I only used dir() interactively. I have the answer,
how to check.
 But how can I access that method? I would like to call it by name. :-)
 
Use the getattr() builtin:


class Foo:
    def mymeth(self):
            print "This is mymeth happening"

methname = 'mymeth'
foo = Foo()
try:
    meth = getattr(foo, methname)
except AttributeError:
    print "Method", methname, "does not exist."
else:
    meth()


From gumuz at NO_looze_SPAM.net  Mon Aug 30 07:41:02 2004
From: gumuz at NO_looze_SPAM.net (Guyon Morée)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:41:02 +0200
Subject: PHP Documentation
Message-ID: <4133124f$0$281$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>

hi, I've been working with PHP lately and what I found is that the docs are
awesome, as is the python are python docs btw. but one thing that I really
like about theirs is the doc-commenting system it has.

any user can comment on any page in the docs. this results in a lot of
clarifications and examples for the subjects at hand.

is it an idea to implement this in the python docs?
i believe it's a good idea what are your thoughts?




From miki.tebeka at zoran.com  Mon Aug 23 05:09:01 2004
From: miki.tebeka at zoran.com (Miki Tebeka)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:09:01 +0200
Subject: C language processing.
In-Reply-To: <845db307.0408210122.70bfd408@posting.google.com>
References: <845db307.0408210122.70bfd408@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <20040823090901.GH1948@zoran.com>

Hello stephen,

> I'm looking for a python module that would allow me to take an input
> file written in 'c' and modify the contents to allow me to, for
> example, add arguments to functions, insert macros at specific
> locations etc. I have no formal education in computer science , but,
> what I believe I'm looking for is somesort of parser (or lexer?).
> 
> So far, I found a bunch of pasers (SimpleParse and SPARK) but these
> seem to be quite generic -non-language specifc. I was hoping that the
> 'c' langauge was sufficiently well known to be supported natively,
> meaning that I would't need to enter the grammar rules into the
> parser.
> 
> Does anybody know of a way of doing this in python? (Or, for that
> matter, with Perl, as I would be learning either language to carry
> this out.)
There an ANSI C parser that comes with PLY (http://systems.cs.uchicago.edu/ply/).
There is also a mini_c compiler somewhere that is based on PLY.

HTH.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Miki Tebeka <miki.tebeka at zoran.com>
http://tebeka.spymac.net
The only difference between children and adults is the price of the toys


From jjl at pobox.com  Sun Aug 22 11:06:09 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 16:06:09 +0100
Subject: backward compatibility?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408212200050.1131-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <87eklz6wm6.fsf@pobox.com>

Peter Kleiweg <in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid> writes:

> So how serious are plans to remove things from Python, like
> lambda and map and reduce? I am just starting out with Python
> and if there is a danger that the programs I write today won't
> work next year, I rather invest my time in another language. I
> might try Ruby, or stick with Perl.

Won't happen until Python 3.0.  When / if 3.0 comes out (more than
five years away), I'm sure people will continue to maintain 2.x for a
long time after that.


John


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 13:30:57 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 10:30:57 -0700
Subject: inverse of izip
References: <d11dcfba.0408182144.14aad4a8@posting.google.com>	<loom.20040819T092507-31@post.gmane.org>	<41245B48.3020000@zeomega.com>	<loom.20040819T100054-648@post.gmane.org>
	<mailman.1941.1092909660.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <d11dcfba.0408190930.6c6088c0@posting.google.com>

Satchidanand Haridas <sharidas at zeomega.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1941.1092909660.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> Could you expand on what you mean by exhaust the iterators too early?
> 
> The reason I ask is that the * operator is applied to 
> ((1,1),(2,2),....(9,9)). The operation of the 
> itertools.izip(range10(),range10()) is completed before the * operation 
> is applied. And the iter() simply converts the result of the inverse 
> izip operation into an iterator.  I hope the above was not too 
> confusing. :-)

Yeah, the difference is a little subtle here.  What we have before you
use the * operator is an iterator that will yield (1,1) then (2,2) up
to (9,9).  Note that we don't actually have the tuple
((1,1),(2,2),....(9,9)) yet, just an iterator that will produce the
same elements.  If your list is very large and you don't want to keep
it all in memory at once, it's crucial that we have the iterator here,
not the tuple.

When you use the * operator, Python converts the iterable following
the * into the argument list of the function.  This means that if
you're using an iterable, it reads all of the elements of the iterable
into memory at once.  That's why my range10 iterators printed
"exhausted" after the * application -- all their elements had been
read into memory.  Again, if your list is very large, this is a bad
thing because you now have all the elements of the list in memory at
the same time.  My other solution (well, Peter Otten's correction of
my solution) never has the whole list in memory at the same time --
each time enumerate generates a tuple and it's index, each of the
iterators returned by starzip generates their appropriate items.[*]

Steve

[*] Of course, if you exhaust one of the iterators before the others,
itertools.tee's implicit cache will actually store all the elements,
so starzip would really only be efficient if you wanted to iterate
through the sub-iterators in lockstep.  This means you'd probably want
to itertools.izip them back together at some point, but being able to
starzip them means you can wrap the individual iterators with extra
functionality if necessary.


From http  Sun Aug 22 14:23:44 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 11:23:44 -0700
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<7x4qmv6cwo.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<slrncihlu9.av9.grante@isis.visi.com>
Message-ID: <7x1xhz1173.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Grant Edwards <grante at visi.com> writes:
> And I presume you're pleasantly surprised when you run your program and find
> out it's not too slow?

Sometimes that happens.  Other times it really is too slow, and I
rewrite it in C.  Other times Python is too bloated and I can't even
consider using it; for example, in anything that users need to download
without a big fuss.


From fumanchu at amor.org  Wed Aug 25 20:33:04 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:33:04 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E7D@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

eltronic wrote:
> please count as for the J2 proposal of yesterday.
> please list as anon, email withheld.
> or better yet email mangled, as this and 
> other lists promise to mangle but they never do.
> here comes another 100 spams and virus as a result of this post.

No email addresses (except my own) are going on the proposal. I'll put
you down as "eltronic", if that's OK.

>     include time for objections to any word picked.
>     note, many are on vacation or only sporadically
>     even read c.l.py and less frequently py-dev.
>     a python-announce post woulden't be a bad idea.

Not enough time, sorry. I'll have to settle for the Southern hemisphere
votes, where it's currently Winter. ;)

> @deco is a syntax that will be tolerated, but,
> how can so many negatives be a positive?
> presumable we will be able to try/except 
> if no def found, I have seen no mention of this.
> will there be a specific Exception?

No need, since it's a compile-time behavior, not runtime.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From mwh at python.net  Fri Aug  6 09:28:37 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 13:28:37 GMT
Subject: Confused about pep 318
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>
	<ceu7ue$n3u$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<mailman.1244.1091758578.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<411304AB.F53A5275@alcyone.com> <10h710cds2i4s18@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <m3d624s8e2.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

"John Roth" <newsgroups at jhrothjr.com> writes:

> "Erik Max Francis" <max at alcyone.com> wrote in message
> news:411304AB.F53A5275 at alcyone.com...
> 
> > Given how things are looking so far with the reaction to the decorator
> > syntax, I'd say U+2639 might be more appropriate ...
> 
> Chuckle!
> 
> For those who haven't looked it up, it's a "sad face"
> smiley (a frowney?)

>>> unicodedata.name(u'\u2639')
'WHITE FROWNING FACE'

I like the unicodedata module :-)

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit.
                                                -- W. Somerset Maugham


From peter.schwalm at epost.de  Tue Aug 24 15:26:01 2004
From: peter.schwalm at epost.de (Peter Schwalm)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 12:26:01 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <20040819231139.D039A1E4003@bag.python.org>
	<mailman.1999.1092969866.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<eyqWc.223375$j62.10948731@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<qVAWc.2328$MR2.9560@news1.mts.net>
	<njemi0hrm3jb1kdc8mhg8krd9a4qu3e894@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <5cf809e9.0408241126.6e3fdd5b@posting.google.com>

Hi Andrea,

I'm 50 and have with Cobol, C, C++, Rexx, and others for over 20
years. My experiences with seasoned programmers were often like yours
("make" - what's that?). And to be honest, I myself am not really fit
in usenet. But like I have always taken the time to study.

Since 2 1/2 years I work with Python and try to do in Python whatever
is possible. If things are not possible in Python, the reasons are
usually political in nature.

Peter Schwalm


From spam at mouse-potato.com  Fri Aug 27 05:50:26 2004
From: spam at mouse-potato.com (Pascal Bourguignon)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 11:50:26 +0200
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4dyXc.25792$Ot3.22106@twister.nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <878yc0ucyl.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>

Kenny Tilton <ktilton at nyc.rr.com> writes:
> >>What you mean with Unixism?
> >     repeated accidents. Such a tool would
> >     first chop off the user's brain, molding
> >     a mass of brainless imbeciles and
> >     microcephalic charlatans the likes of
> >     Larry Wall and Linus Torvald jolly
> > Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
> >         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> So you like my approach, which is to condemn things they have never used?
> 
> :)

No, that of no more using things that you condemn.


-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never
stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and
neither do we.


From wilson_tam at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 24 04:06:43 2004
From: wilson_tam at yahoo.com (Willy)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 01:06:43 -0700
Subject: How to debug Twisted application?
Message-ID: <94059dac.0408240006.46c3f8fa@posting.google.com>

Hi,

I just started learning twisted and hit a big problem. How do I debug
my twisted server?

I wrote a test tcp server called 'tcpserver.py' using
twisted.application method. I start to debug it with 'twisted -b -y
tcpserver.py'. Server doesn't stop at any break point I set with the
'break' command at the (Pdb) prompt.

I also tried to add 'pdb.set_trace()' into my source code. This time,
debug session stops at the right place. But I can't see any SOURCE. I
did a '(Pdb) next'... same, not source listed. But the counter of the
line advance as normal:

(Pdb) n
> <string>(337)setStatus()
(Pdb) n
> <string>(338)setStatus()
(Pdb) n
> <string>(340)setStatus()

Can anyone help?

Thanks in advance.
Wil


From ken.beesley at xrce.xerox.com  Sat Aug 21 15:24:04 2004
From: ken.beesley at xrce.xerox.com (Ken Beesley)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:24:04 +0200
Subject: unicodedata name for \u000a
Message-ID: <4127A154.9080605@xrce.xerox.com>

Newbie question:  on unicodedata.name


If I do

import unicodedata
unicodedata.name(u"a")
or
unicodedata.name(u"\u0061")

I get
'LATIN SMALL LETTER A"

as expected; but when I follow that with

unicodedata.name(u"\u000a")

I get

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
ValueError: no such name

There is, of course, a Unicode name for \u000a,
which is 'LINE FEED' or perhaps 'LINE FEED (A)'.

Is there a gap in unicodedata? or in my understanding?

Thanks,

Ken








From mike at nospam.com  Wed Aug 18 16:36:34 2004
From: mike at nospam.com (Mike Rovner)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 13:36:34 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <mailman.1859.1092833285.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<889cbba0.0408181206.1812881c@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cg0ekg$h0g$1@sea.gmane.org>

Kamilche wrote:
> 40. Old enough that Google wouldn't hire me, hehehehe.

They hired a friend of mine and he is 44.

I'm 41. Fall in love with Python since 1999.
That's how I came to it (best viewing in fixed font):

                             -> pdp11 asm -> forth
                            /
                           -> mumps -> clarion -> vba
                          /
focal -> basic -> fortran -> c -> c++
               \               \
                -> pl/1         -> tcl -> perl -> python
                 \               \
                  -> ibm360 asm   -> prolog -> lisp

Mike





From hyeshik at gmail.com  Sat Aug  7 06:31:35 2004
From: hyeshik at gmail.com (Hye-Shik Chang)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 19:31:35 +0900
Subject: Unicode support
In-Reply-To: <cf0698$nm1@odah37.prod.google.com>
References: <cf0698$nm1@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <4f0b69dc04080703311bd25269@mail.gmail.com>

On 6 Aug 2004 07:57:44 -0700, Richy2004 <richard.scothern at gmail.com> wrote:
> code:
> import sys,codecs
> file = codecs.open("accountmgr_words_arb.txt", "r", "utf-16")
> print (file.readline())
> 
> output:
> File "./test.py", line 5, in ?
> print (file.readline())
> File "C:\Python23\lib\codecs.py", line 384, in readline
> return self.reader.readline(size)
> File "c:\Python23\lib\encodings\utf_16.py", line 57, in readline
> raise NotImplementedError, '.readline() is not implemented for
> UTF-16'
> NotImplementedError: .readline() is not implemented for UTF-16
> 

UTF-16 readline is being supported by CJKCodecs 1.1. :)

>>> import codecs
>>> codecs.open("u16test", "r", "cjkcodecs.utf-16")
<open file 'u16test', mode 'rb' at 0x81ab7e0>
>>> _.readline()
u'\u25ce \ud30c\uc774\uc36c(Python)\uc740 \ubc30\uc6b0\uae30
\uc27d\uace0, \uac15\ub825\ud55c \ud504\ub85c\uadf8\ub798\ubc0d
\uc5b8\uc5b4\uc785\ub2c8\ub2e4. \ud30c\uc774\uc36c\uc740\n'


Hye-Shik


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 09:41:57 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:41:57 +1000
Subject: __name__ becoming read-write?
In-Reply-To: <8cdmi0dipgk5192li1p8mm2n1hls2hs7rl@4ax.com>
References: <uutji0h87t24cb1nej03gdggs0hg6eno3l@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2205.1093275632.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<c94ki0dgh70ud7e1ok8sshlvg4pe96s4h8@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2211.1093279236.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<3b8ki0tlphodtt8ge8an274qp78ihp1i3n@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2223.1093282711.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ultki0h81hl8fmgd452tqsfqihv6hpvege@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2261.1093321637.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<8cdmi0dipgk5192li1p8mm2n1hls2hs7rl@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408240641523417c9@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:09:56 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
> All I think I am looking for is proportionality.  The solution should
> be proportional to the problem.  The current syntax is expressive in
> the way that, I thought, was always considered to be fundamental to
> the concept of Pythonic.

See, I think decorators _are_ proportional to the problem. I think one
thing is that decorators are a nice language feature that will allow
for a large number of new approaches - things that wouldn't
necessarily have been considered before now.

> 1) the placement of the transformative code under the function  -
> leading to a purely hypothetical problem - I am not aware of any
> reports of acutal issues arising - of a reader missing important
> information related to the function.

Aside from anything else, it's ugly and hard to read code - you have
to flick to the bottom of the function to see what transforms might,
or might not, have been done.

> 2) burdensome amounts of typing when dealing with long function names.

It's not just a matter of typing, it's a matter of elegance. The
current syntax was always a placeholder until we figured out what, if
anything, needed to be added.

> If Python needs to apologize for being itself in the limited
> circumstances that give rise to these conditions, perhaps it can be
> done with a bit more - I don't know - dignity.  Which would involve
> recognizing the issues as minor annoyances, and providing some limited
> relief.

Again, I think you're misunderstanding the point of decorators.
They're a more generally useful feature, and I think people will be
far more likely to use them once they're a little more prominent. Not
everyone, sure, but those who can use it will find them incredibly
useful. The classic "synchronized()" decorator is one obvious example.
I think I've mentioned descriptors before in a similar context - 90+%
of Python programmers don't (knowingly) use them, but those who need
them find them incredibly powerful. And they can then write libraries
that use these, and other people can then use those libraries.

> And in those cases where the developer's editor's cut and paste
> facility are on the fritz and they are dealing with 70 letter function
> names, you have given them a writeable __name__ attribute as another
> weapon to solve their issue.

A couple of people have latched onto the writable __name__ thing, without
understanding some very basic problems with it - by itself, it's not
particularly useful. If you modify __name__, it does _nothing_ apart
from alter the name of the function that appears in tracebacks. It's
only when combined with decorators that it becomes useful, imho.


From nhodgson at bigpond.net.au  Fri Aug 20 06:41:48 2004
From: nhodgson at bigpond.net.au (Neil Hodgson)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:41:48 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<7x3c2iw9ig.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<cg4cng$bo8$02$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <MzkVc.419$D7.165@news-server.bigpond.net.au>

Peter Otten:

> I think Java and C# have been discussed on python-dev. Again you could
share
> your experience.

   @Java
http://www.jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/review/jsr175/

   ///@XDoclet was a forerunner that hid the @s inside doc comments
http://xdoclet.sourceforge.net/xdoclet/index.html

   [C# attributes] can be user defined but are static pieces of metadata.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/csspec/html/vclrfcsharpspec_17.asp
   The "eXtensible C#" language extends this to allow compile time actions.
http://www.resolvecorp.com/products.aspx

   Visual C++ attributes are not currently user definable but can inject
code into the output object files. Attributes can only be defined by
Microsoft who have not documented the interface between the compiler and the
attribute provider DLLs. Microsoft have been promising user defined
attributes for a few years now. "Ronald Laeremans attributes" is a good
google key.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/vcattrib/html/vcrefattributesreference.asp

   Microsoft IDL has had a hard coded set of attributes using the [] before
definition syntax for about 15 years
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/midl/midl/idl_attributes.asp

   Neil




From nomail at nomail.nomail  Mon Aug 16 13:54:53 2004
From: nomail at nomail.nomail (Dominic)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:54:53 +0200
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
In-Reply-To: <zn4w2y3g.fsf@telus.net>
References: <mailman.1661.1092519005.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7x7js1i887.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<slrnchug4m.n0d.npat@gray.efault.net> <zn4w2y3g.fsf@telus.net>
Message-ID: <cfqs7o$aba$2@news.uni-kl.de>

> actual recursive C call of the interpreter. So to have a yield span more
> than one python function would require saving and restoring part of the
> actual C stack - coroutines at the C level - or a rewrite of the interpreter
> to not make the recursive C calls as in Stackless Python.
Well, it works as long as you rewind the stack before
it overflows ;-)

Ciao,
  Dominic


From anthony_barker at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 23 13:53:01 2004
From: anthony_barker at hotmail.com (Anthony_Barker)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 10:53:01 -0700
Subject: favorite python web development tool?
References: <10i4nttktcvltdd@corp.supernews.com>
	<899f842.0408180922.38a834e9@posting.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.19.14.11.51.369926@thomas-guettler.de>
Message-ID: <899f842.0408230953.49b2ed96@posting.google.com>

> > Have a look at mod_python 3.1 - I've found performance very good. I
> > benchmarked it against a commercial oversized J2EE app server and for
> > non complex app found it faster. It includes session handling and a
> > basic template system. However, you can use whichever templating
> > language you like with it. Cheetah is nice
> 
> Hi Anthony,
> 
> Did you compare it to SCGI, too?
> http://www.mems-exchange.org/software/scgi/
> 
>  Thomas

No didn't test scgi. I mod_python found it slightly faster than
mod_php and hugely faster than zope and lotus domino. Didn't test
scgi.

Prefer to stick to the official apache project thinking that it will
be around longer. scgi does less than mod_python, so it may be quicker
- you should test it out.


From peter at designtheory.org  Mon Aug  9 12:54:49 2004
From: peter at designtheory.org (Peter Dobcsanyi)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 16:54:49 GMT
Subject: Module for converting XML to Python object(s)?
References: <otdPc.224$df.27@bignews5.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <cf8a8p$sbp$1@beta.qmul.ac.uk>

Robert Oschler <no_replies at fake_email_address.invalid> wrote:
> Has anybody seen a Python module that will take an XML document (not a
> colossal one), and convert it to a Python nested class object?  I'm

I have something similar implemented in the "ext-rep" module of the
"pydesign" package.  Here is an excerpt from the documentation:

    XTree is a class to create and manipulate a labeled rooted tree data
    structure whose underlying raw data structure is a tree whose nodes are
    tuples of the structure:

	(node_name, {dictionary of attributes}, [list of children])

    The dictionary of attributes represents the label associated with the
    node. This raw tree is not accessed directly, however, but through the
    XTree object's interface. XTree, in fact, is a lazy recursive wrapper
    around the raw structure and hides the implementation details. From the
    user's point of view, the internal nodes of the tree presented this way
    are of the XTree type. The leaves of the tree are either childless XTree
    objects or some particular Python data types. Currently, the following
    Python data types can be used for leaves: integer, floating point,
    string, list of integers.

The module is specialized to a particular highly structured XML
document, but it should not be difficult to modify it for your needs.
The user can read the whole XML document in one step or alternatively as
a "stream" of sub XTree-s.

In fact, I have found this streaming Reader (parser + converter)
solution so useful that I am planning to make the module into a general
parameterizable module.

You can find documentation and the package at:

    http://designtheory.org/software/pydesign/

--             ,
    Peter Dobcsanyi


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Mon Aug 30 15:58:24 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 19:58:24 GMT
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2584.1093824257.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<14JYc.8263$6o3.4262@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<VPSdnRsGq9ImH67cRVn-vg@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <AFLYc.8579$6o3.3324@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>


"Peter Hansen" <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message
news:VPSdnRsGq9ImH67cRVn-vg at powergate.ca...
> Arthur wrote:
> > There is some other syntactical aim here that I wouldn't call "sugar".
Once
> > again, in the context of "decorators", we might need a new word to
express
> > what the intention is here.
> >
> > If a core argument in favor is to shortcut programmer input, I think it
> > should be expressed as an unadorned shortcut.  And think @ expresses the
> > intent, in this respect more baldly and clearly.
>
> It looked a whole awful lot to me like the driving force behind
> the decorator syntax was not to shortcut programmer input, but
> to move the decorator up to a more prominent position than it
> occupied with the existing syntax (i.e. after the function,
> possibly even after lots of other functions, and thus somewhat
> hidden from the reader).
>
> Shortcutting programmer input has, as far as I can tell, never
> been a goal of Python syntax except, perhaps, the += form when
> applied merely to primitives...
>

I guess it is a matter of which parts of the discussion one heard louder.
Certainly there was a lot of comments from some of the folks much interested
in seeing this syntax about the PITA of typing:

some_long_name=foo(some_long_name)

This issue is undeniably real.

The readibility issue is purely theoretical.  I am not aware of anyone
reporting real isses in real practice.

So I guess I took the shortcut issue as the more real of the issues.

@ sort of spells macro - in lay terms, at least.  And in my mind that is
closer to what we are looking at.

If we are going for aesthetics, and readibility - we are on the wrong course
in any casew, IMO.

Art





From caleb1 at telkomsa.net  Wed Aug 25 22:51:54 2004
From: caleb1 at telkomsa.net (Caleb Hattingh)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:51:54 -0400
Subject: Macro expansion: intercept statement interpretation
References: <opsc9o36ze1js0xs@news.telkomsa.net>
	<cggdpo$vo6$00$1@news.t-online.com>
	<cgge70$96m$03$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <opsdbjksap1js0xs@news.telkomsa.net>

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:07:22 +0200, Benjamin Niemann <pink at odahoda.de>  
wrote:

> ...
> If this actually works, a nice application could be rapid prototyping of  
> syntax extensions to python ('import this module and you can test and  
> see why my decorator syntax is better than yours' ;)

Well spotted! I didn't think of that.  The ongoing decorator thread could  
have had some real-world testing being done.  Also, the kind of macro  
expansion I want to play around could avoid the need for decorators to be  
added to the language in the first place...


From jeff_news at lindholm.org  Thu Aug 26 16:38:22 2004
From: jeff_news at lindholm.org (Jeff Lindholm)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:38:22 GMT
Subject: Newbie question on dictionary!!!
References: <494182a9.0408261150.a4c767f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <2TrXc.5428$ZC7.2685@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com>

> I want to ask a simple question.
>
> Suppose I have an list say g=['a','b','c','d']
>
> and I have an dictionary say k={'b':20,'a':10}
>
> Now I want to sort this dictionary on the basis of the list and if it
> doesnt find any of the element in the list then I wud like to replace
> it with zero..
>
> so I would like to modify k into {'a':10,'b':20,'c':0,'d':0}
>
> I have tried all the built in associated with dict and lists but was
> not able to come up with an solution...
>
> Can anyone help...

Here is a simple thing I was playing with today, that does some of what you 
want. You could use it for a simple starting point.

def countletters(s):
    ret = {}
    for c in s:
        ret[c] = ret.get(c, 0) + 1
    return ret

if __name__ == "__main__":
    #ret = countletters("this is only a test of the emergency broadcast 
system, had this been an actual emergency you would have been told where to 
tune your radio")
    ret = countletters(['a','b','b','c'])
    li = ret.items()
    li.sort()
    print "\n\n",li,"\n\n" 




From elbertlev at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 18 15:31:36 2004
From: elbertlev at hotmail.com (Elbert Lev)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 12:31:36 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <mailman.1859.1092833285.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <9418be08.0408181131.748a3228@posting.google.com>

55 and ticking. First program at 15 in machine code and tape.


From maarten at remove_this_ws.tn.tudelft.nl  Wed Aug 25 07:57:06 2004
From: maarten at remove_this_ws.tn.tudelft.nl (Maarten van Reeuwijk)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:57:06 +0200
Subject: Scipy install
Message-ID: <cghuqj$qbr$1@news.tudelft.nl>

I am trying to install scipy on an SGI Altix 3700 system, but I cannot
convince the distutils installer that BLAS and LAPACK are already there and
that I don't need ATLAS because everything's optimized already. I tried
modifying the site.cfg to tell where the libraries are located:
...
[lapack]
library_dirs = /usr/local/opt/scs_beta/lib
lapack_libs = scs

[lapack_src]
# src_dirs = ..

[blas]
library_dirs = /usr/local/opt/scs_beta/lib
blas_libs = scs
...

The installer complains that it cannot locate the sources, but I only want
scipy to use the libraries. Any ideas on how to fix this?

TIA, Maarten
 
-- 
===================================================================
Maarten van Reeuwijk                    Thermal and Fluids Sciences
Phd student                             dept. of Multiscale Physics
www.ws.tn.tudelft.nl                 Delft University of Technology


From jdc at uwo.ca  Mon Aug  9 10:32:21 2004
From: jdc at uwo.ca (Dan Christensen)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 10:32:21 -0400
Subject: decorators as a special case of an @ operator?
References: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <87llgocrgq.fsf@uwo.ca>

I wonder what people think of the following crazy idea, which has two
parts.

1) Allow anonymous multi-line functions.  For definiteness, I'll use
   the following syntax, but lambda or something else could be used
   too:

   f = def (a,b,c):
         d = a*b
         return d + c

2) Define a *binary* operator @ which is just a shorthand for
   function application:  f @ x = f(x)    

   Note that f(x) is sometimes pronounced "f at x", so @ is a
   reasonable symbol to use.  But it could also be something else.
 
   This @ is not associative;  make the rule that it associates
   from right to left, so   g @ f @ x = g(f(x))

Presto, you have decorators:

f = decorator1 @
    decorator2 @
    def (a,b,c):
        d = a*b
        return d + c

And the function name is at the top, like some people prefer.

Notes:

- Multi-line anonymous functions are something that have been
  requested a lot already.

- With 1) alone, you already can do:

  f = decorator1(
      decorator2(
      def (a,b,c):
          d = a*b
          return d + c
      ))

  The sole purpose of @ is to avoid all the closing parens.

- To avoid trailing backslashes, the parser would have to
  automatically continue to the next line when a line ends in @.

- Since g @ f @ x = g(f(x)), @ is a bit like function composition,
  usually written as a small circle, again suggesting that @ is a
  reasonable symbol.  (But note that g @ f = g(f) which is not the
  same as g composed with f...)

- This @ could be useful in other contexts to avoid deeply
  nested parentheses.

- If x is a tuple, f @ *x could mean f(*x), which allows
  @ to be used with functions of several arguments.  (Not
  very relevant here.)

Dan


From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Fri Aug 20 09:52:15 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:52:15 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <3b2846c4.0408200541.5d925216@posting.google.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<3b2846c4.0408200541.5d925216@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <qfadnfrSoLiTn7vcRVn-gA@giganews.com>

John Crichton wrote:

> Surely any English language keyword that gives a meaningful hint as to
> its purpose within a program has to be more readable than an arbitrary
> '@' symbol?

so what is more 'readable'

x[1:10]

or

x[from 1 to 10 ]


From roccomoretti at hotpop.com  Tue Aug 24 12:45:36 2004
From: roccomoretti at hotpop.com (Rocco Moretti)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:45:36 -0500
Subject: function taking scalar or list argument
In-Reply-To: <412a2bce$1_1@127.0.0.1>
References: <412a2bce$1_1@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <cgfrbh$f4o$1@news.doit.wisc.edu>

beliavsky at aol.com wrote:

> I can define a function that transforms either a scalar or each element in
> a list as follows:
> 
> def twice(x):
>     try:
>         return map(twice,x)
>     except:
>         return 2*x
> 
> print twice(3) # 6
> print twice([1,4,9]) # [2,8,18]
> 
> Is this good style? I intend to define many functions like this and want
> to use the right method. Thanks.

In addition to those options already mentioned, here's another alternative.

def twice(*args):
     retval = [2*x for x in args]
     if len(retval) == 1:
         return retval[0]
     else:
         return retval

print twice() # []
print twice(3) # 6
print twice([1,4,9]) # [1, 4, 9, 1, 4, 9]

#BUT ...
print twice(*[1,4,9]) # [2,8,18]
# Note '*' -^
print twice(1,4,9) # [2,8,18]
# No '[]' --^----^

You can even omit the if ... else, if you don't mind getting a singleton 
list for the one-parameter case. (i.e. twice(3) == [6])


From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug  5 14:32:48 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 14:32:48 -0400
Subject: Confused about pep 318
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1218.1091727649.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>	<mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org>	<d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>	<mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051249050.10473-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>	<mailman.1210.1091725930.5135.python-list@python.org>	<e86dnZBJM6_n84_cRVn-jA@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1218.1091727649.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <HrmdnaFrl6nN4I_cRVn-ig@powergate.ca>

Anthony Baxter wrote:

> On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 13:29:29 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> 
>>I'll make another donation to PSF if the final decorator syntax
>>does not Perlishly use arbitrary punctuation as the @ syntax does.
> 
> FFS. What exactly is "Perlish" about @? It's an unused symbol. That's all.
> It's hardly arbitrary - Java, for instance, already uses @ for the same thing.

And Java chose it based on what precedent?  Basing a choice on
someone else's arbitrary choice makes something only ever so
slightly less arbitrary.

Python doesn't need to select syntax from other languages.  Python
leads, it doesn't follow.  Until now.  :-(

-Peter


From imbaczek-nospam at poczta.fm.cut-from-here.no-spam.info  Fri Aug 20 17:26:50 2004
From: imbaczek-nospam at poczta.fm.cut-from-here.no-spam.info (Marek =?iso-8859-2?Q?Baczy=F1ski?=)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 23:26:50 +0200
Subject: Fate of lambda, Functional Programming in Python...
References: <412636D1.6070808@noaa.gov>
	<mailman.2073.1093028474.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<41265E67.A08409A6@juno.com> <2on5k1FcjmvdU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <4dxun9nvgeaz.dlg@baczek.net.invalid>

Dnia Fri, 20 Aug 2004 22:37:07 +0200, Reinhold Birkenfeld napisa?(a):

> Jeff Sandys wrote:
>> I think that lambda should be unlimited and expanded.  It already has
>> the 
>> colon, block delimiter, so allow lambda to be a multistatement and
>> multiline
>> indented block!
> 
> So in what point exactly is this different from a def(), then?

1) Lambda is anonymous.
2) Lambda evaluates to a function (or rather can be used as an expression.)

Try this without lambda:

[lambda x, y: x+y, lambda x, y: x*y, ... (etc.)]

I don't say it's impossible, but largely superfluous. (Note that this
*particular* case can be (better) solved by operator.*.)

-- 
Marek Baczy?ski :: UIN 57114871 :: GG 161671 :: JID imbaczek at jabber.gda.pl
He who knows best best knows how little he knows. -- Thomas Jefferson


From amdescombes at qualicontrol.com  Wed Aug 18 07:27:12 2004
From: amdescombes at qualicontrol.com (AMD)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 13:27:12 +0200
Subject: Is it possible to write a DLL using python
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1813.1092762492.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <cft24m$njb$1@news-reader2.wanadoo.fr>
	<mailman.1813.1092762492.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cfveek$ef3$1@news-reader2.wanadoo.fr>

Actually what I need to do is write a DLL which exports a single stdCall 
method named Execute which receives an IDispatch interface to the caller 
as its only parameter:

Here is the equivalent Delphi declaration of the method I need to export :

procedure Execute(caller IDispatch); stdcall;

I will take a look at Pyrex and Py2Exe and see if they can help me.

Regards,

Andre

> Not directly, but yes, using libpython. Essentially you write your
> python code and then a thin C wrapper over it that does datatype and
> calling convention conversion. Since this is not a pleasant task for
> many people, you might take a look at Pyrex, which does this quite
> nicely. Generally Pyrex is considered as a way to wrap C code for use
> but Python, but it works just as well the other way.
> 
> On Tue, Aug 17, 2004 at 03:44:50PM +0200, AMD wrote:
> 
>>Hi,
>>
>>I need to write a Win32 DLL and I would like to use Python instead of 
>>VB, C++ or Delphi. Is this possible?
>>
>>Thank you,
>>
>>Andre M. Descombes


From jjl at pobox.com  Sat Aug 28 15:25:02 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 20:25:02 +0100
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
	<dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
	<aN5Xc.205341$M95.157379@pd7tw1no>
	<1gj4fb5.607xsc51izh8N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xllg25lkt.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj4u3a.12ttba9fynd6uN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncis152.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<1gj5bp4.qhup8tldmvebN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncitrk7.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<7xk6vlgemp.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<slrnciu0fg.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<1gj6eil.hgzr1l125qaomN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrnciu703.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<1gj6n23.vnzqrh1unc1qfN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <873c275alt.fsf@pobox.com>

aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:
[...]
> Maybe one day I'll be psychologically able to use killfiles more
> consistently, whenever I notice some poster that I can reliably classify
> as a useless flamer, and let readers of that poster's tripe watch out
> for themselves.  But still I find it less painful to just drop out of
> c.l.py altogether when I once again realize I just can't afford the time
> to show why every flawed analysis in the world IS flawed, why every
> false assertion in the world IS false, and so on -- and further realize
> that there will never be any shortage of people eager to post flawed
> analysis, false assertions, and so on, to any public forum.
[...]

It can be amusing, in a sadistic sort of way, to watch you attempt to
nail to the floor every protruding flabby piece of argument, no matter
how peripheral or repetitious.  It's not *always* as edifying as other
ways you could spend your time, though...

But I do see the temptation :-/


John


From luismg at gmx.net  Mon Aug 16 19:37:37 2004
From: luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 16:37:37 -0700
Subject: Newbie 1st program
References: <f9d01b73.0408161010.1ba5e9e4@posting.google.com>
	<hp6dnbqxhPStYL3cRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <278de0e.0408161537.61ab1301@posting.google.com>

Just a question: How did you make the installer package?


From FBatista at uniFON.com.ar  Fri Aug 27 12:09:41 2004
From: FBatista at uniFON.com.ar (Batista, Facundo)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:09:41 -0300
Subject: Alex Martelli: Welcome back!
Message-ID: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C788C@escpl.tcp.com.ar>

[Dave Benjamin]

#- Asunto: Alex Martelli: Welcome back!
#- 
#- It's nice to see you around here again!

+1

.	Facundo


From z at b.com  Fri Aug 27 17:55:36 2004
From: z at b.com (JZ)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 23:55:36 +0200
Subject: Mysql in Python?
References: <cgnsjt$mod@odak26.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <kktcwi05l0qd.1jd0udtzxk58k.dlg@40tude.net>

Dnia 27 Aug 2004 10:56:13 -0700, Simon John napisa?(a):

> And the ADOdb page says that to use it with MySQL, you have to install
> the mysql-python (MySQLdb) module, so doesn't really help here, as we
> haven't even got that far!

But what's the real problem? Everyone knows MySQLdb is the main MySQL
module for Python...

--
JZ


From wilkSPAM at OUTflibuste.net  Thu Aug 19 17:24:54 2004
From: wilkSPAM at OUTflibuste.net (Wilk)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:24:54 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <87u0uystw9.fsf@blakie.riol>

"Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> writes:

> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....

35, i began when i was 11 on Apple ][+ in 6502 assembly langage, then C,
Windev, PHP, Java and now I'm happy to can use only python since somes 
years :-)


-- 
Wilk - http://flibuste.net


From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu  Wed Aug 25 13:39:23 2004
From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Daniel Yoo)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:39:23 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: counterpart for Python None in C++ side
References: <mailman.2371.1093453192.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgiisa$1usc$1@agate.berkeley.edu>

Jinming Xu <cybermanxu at hotmail.com> wrote:
: Hi Folks,

: Could any of you please teach me what's the counterpart of Python None in 
: C++ side? Since I need to manipulate a Python None in C++.


There's a separate Py_None object that's accessible from the Python/C API:

    http://docs.python.org/api/noneObject.html


Is this what you're looking for?


From adurdin at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 20:09:32 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:09:32 +1000
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <loom.20040820T002753-686@post.gmane.org>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<cg30i5$2q$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
	<loom.20040820T002753-686@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a04081917094e0e1d5e@mail.gmail.com>

As for me?

J2, C1,   um.... er...  J2.


From harry.g.george at boeing.com  Wed Aug 18 13:08:53 2004
From: harry.g.george at boeing.com (Harry George)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:08:53 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<cfvnt4$98p$1@news.wrc.xerox.com>
Message-ID: <xqxy8kcxtju.fsf@cola2.ca.boeing.com>

mjackson at alumni.caltech.edu (Mark Jackson) writes:

> "Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> writes:
> > One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> > Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> > about....
> 
> 55.  Wrote my first program at 16 (Fortran, punch cards).
> 
> -- 
> Mark Jackson - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
> 	Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it
> 	is the merger of state and corporate power.
> 				- Benito Mussolini
> 
> 

Finally, someone in my cohort :-).  52.  Also wrote first program at
16, FORTRAN, on punch cards.  Many, many languages later found python
and bliss.  In the middle of a world of meetings, project planning,
and other project managering a few hours coding restores a sense of
hope.

(BTW, nice signature quote.  See http://www.seanet.com/~hgg9140/ for
related materials.)

-- 
harry.g.george at boeing.com
6-6M21 BCA CompArch Design Engineering
Phone: (425) 342-0007


From michael at foord.net  Mon Aug  2 02:43:59 2004
From: michael at foord.net (Fuzzyman)
Date: 1 Aug 2004 23:43:59 -0700
Subject: Making a socket connection via a proxy server
References: <8089854e.0407300433.4c09bce0@posting.google.com>
	<_yvOc.5828$Z14.7072@news.indigo.ie>
Message-ID: <8089854e.0408012243.cbe32a7@posting.google.com>

[snip..]

> 
> > It looks like the CONNECT and GET requests are just implemented using
> > simple socket commands. (I say simple because there isn't a lot of
> > code - I'm not familiar with the actual behaviour of sockets, but it
> > doesn't look too complicated).
> > 
> > What I need to do is rewrite the soc.connect(host_port) line in the
> > following example so that it connects *via* my proxy-server. (which it
> > doesn't by default).
> > 
> > I think the current format of host_port is a tuple : (host_domain,
> > port_no)
> > 
> > Below is a summary of the GET command (I've inlined all the method
> > calls - this example starts from the do_GET method) :
> > 
> > soc = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
> > soc.connect(host_port)
> 
> What is the value of host_port at this point? It *should* be the 
> address of your external access proxy, i.e. dav-serv:8080
> 
> > soc.send("%s %s %s\r\n" % (
> >     self.command,
> >     urlparse.urlunparse(('', '', path, params, query, '')),
> >     self.request_version))
> 
> And you're not sending an absoluteURI: this should be amended to 
> contain the server details of the the server that is finally going to 
> service the request. For the python.org example above, this code would be
> 
> soc.send("%s %s %s\r\n" % (
>      self.command,
>      urlparse.urlunparse(('http', 'www.python.org:80', path, params, 
> query, '')),
>      self.request_version))
> 
> though of course, these values should be made available to you by 
> TinyHTTPProxy. Taking a brief look at the code, these values should 
> available through the variables "scm" and "netloc". So your outgoing 
> connection code from TinyHTTPProxy should look something like this
> 
> soc = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
> soc.connect( ('dav-serv', 8080) )
> soc.send("%s %s %s\r\n" % (
>      self.command,
>      urlparse.urlunparse((scm, netloc, path, params, query, '')),
>      self.request_version))
> 
> HTH,


Thanks to all of you who replied.
I think I uderstand enough to have a go - I need to make the
connection to the proxy and the request for the absolute URI. That at
least gives me something to go at and it shouldn't be too hard.

Many Thanks for your help.

Fuzzyman

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html


From dave at pythonapocrypha.com  Mon Aug 30 10:31:20 2004
From: dave at pythonapocrypha.com (Dave Brueck)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 08:31:20 -0600
Subject: use win32 COM in python
In-Reply-To: <cguo6j$j67$1@news.yaako.com>
References: <cguo6j$j67$1@news.yaako.com>
Message-ID: <41333A38.5030104@pythonapocrypha.com>

Lin Jingxian wrote:

> hi,
>   I have a C++ implemented COM server that give out a method like: int
> read(unsigned char* buf, int lenth), How can I use this method from python?
> what is the signature?

Have a look at ctypes and/or win32com - they allow you to use COM (in 
varying degrees) from Python, so what you're trying to do is probably 
possible.

-Dave


From wweston at att.net  Thu Aug 19 11:46:12 2004
From: wweston at att.net (wes weston)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:46:12 GMT
Subject: newbie
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1958.1092926275.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1958.1092926275.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <8X3Vc.478164$Gx4.116973@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>

JASON JESSO wrote:
> I'm trying to add a mode to a mkdir program a got off
> the python cookbook.
> 
> The error I get is:
> ./mkdir.py jason 0777
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "./mkdir.py", line 31, in ?
>     _mkdir( sys.argv[1], sys.argv[2] )
>   File "./mkdir.py", line 25, in _mkdir
>     os.mkdir( newdir, mode )
> TypeError: an integer is required
> 
> When I convert the mode from a string to an octal with
> oct(int(sys.argv[2])) the permissions are all screwed
> up.
> 
> Any help?
> 
> #!/usr/bin/env python
> 
> import sys, os
> 
> def _mkdir( newdir, mode ):
>     """works the way a good mkdir should :)
>         - already exists, silently complete
>         - regular file in the way, raise an exception
>         - parent directory(ies) does not exist, make
> them as well
>     """
>     if os.path.isdir( newdir ):
>         pass
>     elif os.path.isfile( newdir ):
>         raise OSError("a file with the same name as
> the desired " \
>                       "dir, '%s', already exists." %
> newdir)
>     else:
>         head, tail = os.path.split( newdir )
>         if head and not os.path.isdir( head ):
>             _mkdir( head, mode )
> 
>         if tail:
>             if mode is None:
>                  os.mkdir( newdir )
>             else:
>                  os.mkdir( newdir, mode )
> 
> if __name__ == '__main__' :
>     if len(sys.argv) < 3:
>        _mkdir( sys.argv[1], None )
>     else:
>        _mkdir( sys.argv[1], sys.argv[2] )
> 

jason,
    Your first instinct in direct problems like this
should be to get in the python interactive interpreter
and play around.


Python 2.3.3 (#1, Mar 11 2004, 22:02:41)
[GCC 3.2.3 20030502 (Red Hat Linux 3.2.3-20)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
 >>> perm = "0777"
 >>> oct(int(perm))
'01411'
 >>>


Note you still need to import.

 >>> print math.pi
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
NameError: name 'math' is not defined
 >>> import math
 >>> print math.pi
3.14159265359
 >>>

wes



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 03:43:35 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:43:35 +1000
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <cghslg$lao$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>
	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org> <cghslg$lao$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082600433e025140@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 07:20:17 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Not exactly, but it would include defining those.  One way to think
> about metadata is that it includes all information *about* an object,
> but no information *used by* the object.

See, for me, metadata is data about an object that is defined
explicitly as about the object. You can look at an object, and say
"Aha! It supports __getitem__, __iter__ and __len__, and is therefore
likely to be a sequence type object." This is not metadata - this is
something you've determined by looking at the object. __getitem__ and
friends *are* used by the object, and so can't be considered metadata.
I'd even say that __metaclass__ is not metadata in any sense of the
word, because it's *fundamental* to the class's workings.

Something like Zope3's Interfaces, which allow you to specify the
Interfaces that an object or class implements, are closer to metadata,
but note that even there, we've gone from an initial API of:

    class Foo:
        __implements__ = ( IFoo, )

to 
    class Foo:
        implements(IFoo)

... moving away from the double-under form to a more readable and
useful form. The new form allows for far more powerful and useful
behaviour, such as inheritence of interfaces from base classes.
Twisted has also moved from using the former style to the latter.
These are two _very_ large bodies of code, with a lot of very clueful
people working on them - and they found that the magic double-under
name was inferior to an explicit call syntax.

> If we were to have a conversation about this conversation, then we would
> be having a "meta-conversation."  /metadata/ is data that describes
> data.  metadata for a function would be data that describes the
> function; data *about* the function as opposed to data *used by* the
> function.  For example:
> 
>     def circumference(diameter):
>        """ This is a docstring.  It's metadata for this function. """
>        __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'      # more metadata
>        pi = 3.14                       # not metadata
>        return pi * diameter

There are a small number of double-under names that are used for
metadata - most of them are automatically inserted by Python
automatically. The overwhelming number of double-under names are not
metadata in any way.


From xslom03 at vse.cz  Wed Aug 18 02:23:41 2004
From: xslom03 at vse.cz (Martin Slouf)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 08:23:41 +0200
Subject: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xf3'
In-Reply-To: <41224bc0$0$13029$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
References: <4120F820.4000703@fusiondementes.com>
	<mailman.1775.1092723467.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4121A8DA.30802@v.loewis.de>
	<mailman.1781.1092730889.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<41224bc0$0$13029$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
Message-ID: <20040818062341.GB3482@barbucha.martin.net>

ok, thanks for your time while answering my questions.

my python is

Python 2.3.3 (#1, May  1 2004, 16:13:07) 
[GCC 3.2.3] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import sys
>>> sys.stdout.encoding
'ISO-8859-2'

so im fine with it -- just a strange thing that it has used ascii, if   
sys default is ISO-8859-2.

on the other hand: no matter now -- im 'overencoded' -- and i will
explicitly call conversion function from now on in my python scripts
(those are not programs :) to ensure myself everything is fine

i see that the solution i came with was quite right, though i didnt
much understand it.  now i know how it works and im satisfied.

thanks to all of you.

martin.

On Tue, Aug 17, 2004 at 08:17:41PM +0200, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
> Martin Slouf wrote:
> >>- print a repr() of the unicode object instead of
> >> the unicode object itself. This will work on all
> >> terminals, and show hex escapes of non-ASCII characters.
> >
> >
> >just to make sure:
> >
> >override the object's __repr__(self) method to st. like:
> >
> >class my_string(string):
> >    def __repr__(self)
> >	tmp = unicode(self.attribute1 + " " + self.attribute2)
> >	return tmp
> >
> >and use 'my_string' class without any worries instead of classical
> >string?
> 
> No. Assume yyy is a Unicode object which potentially contains
> non-printable characters. Instead of doing
> 
>    print yyy
> 
> do
> 
>   print repr(yyy)
> 
> >my system is debian GNU/Linux stable, im using it for a very, very long
> >time, though i did not changed any terminal settings but the very
> >basics.  My locales are properly set, im using LC_* environment
> >variables to set default locale to czech environment with ISO-8859-2
> >charset.  Terminal is capable of displaying 8bit charsets, im not sure
> >about unicode charsets -- never tried, never needed.
> 
> I see. Could it be that you are using Python 2.1, then? Because in
> Python 2.3, printing Czech characters to the terminal should work
> just fine. Please do
> 
> Python 2.3.4 (#2, Aug  5 2004, 09:33:45)
> [GCC 3.3.4 (Debian 1:3.3.4-7)] on linux2
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
> >>> import sys
> >>> sys.stdout.encoding
> 'ISO-8859-15'
> 
> >if 0:
> >    # Enable to support locale aware default string encodings.
> >    import locale
> >    loc = locale.getdefaultlocale()
> >    if loc[1]:
> >        encoding = loc[1]
> >
> >so i guess it is never done :(
> 
> You don't need to change the default encoding. Instead,
> sys.stdout.encoding is used for printing to the terminal (in 2.3 and
> later).
> 
> >did you yourself changed it?
> 
> No. It will work out of the box.
> 
> >well, if a piece of information like you gave to me was contained in
> >standard python documentation, probably there will be less
> >misunderstanding about this issue.
> 
> What piece specifically are you referring to? It is all mentioned
> in the standard Python documentation.
> 
> >#! /usr/bin/env python
> ># -*- coding: UTF-8 -*-
> >at the begginnig of my every script, the example above still has to 
> >be converted -- because of the iso-8859-1 you use in "L?wis"?
> 
> Yes, and no. Yes, it still has to be converted. UTF-8 is *not*
> Unicode; it is a byte encoding, and you cannot mix Unicode
> strings and byte strings. No, if I use UTF-8 in my source code,
> then "L?wis" will be encoded in UTF-8, not in ISO-8859-1.
> 
> >can i ommit the conversion (ie. is it done automatically for me as if
> >i write
> >u"Martin v. " + unicode("L?wis", "ISO-8859-1")
> >)?
> 
> You can, but you shouldn't. So I won't tell you how you could do that.
> 
> >dont understand -- which library?
> 
> The ODBC library, for example, or PyQt.
> 
> Regards,
> Martin
> -- 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From HOELTLNS01/HOELTL/DE%HOELTL at hoeltl.com  Tue Aug 24 13:06:46 2004
From: HOELTLNS01/HOELTL/DE%HOELTL at hoeltl.com (HOELTLNS01/HOELTL/DE%HOELTL at hoeltl.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:06:46 +0200
Subject: Bericht an Absender
Message-ID: <OF2C0898C6.D44389DA-ONC1256EFA.005E0105@hoeltl.com>

Ereignisinformation:-

Datenbank:  e:/lotus/domino/data/mail.box
Urheber:    python-list at python.org
Empf?nger:  franzberger at hoeltl.com
Betreff:    Mail Delivery (failure franzberger at hoeltl.com)
Datum/Zeit: 24.08.2004 19:06:42

Die an franzberger at hoeltl.com gesendete Nachricht wurde isoliert, da sie
gesperrten Inhalt enth?lt.
Message sent to franzberger at hoeltl.com was quarantined because it contained
banned content. Our email system does not accept the following
attachment:BAS, BAT, CAB, COM, CMD, EXE, GIF, JS, MSI, PIF, SCR, VBE, VBS,
WBS, WCS, WSF, WSH...........





From xslom03 at vse.cz  Tue Aug 17 02:17:45 2004
From: xslom03 at vse.cz (Martin Slouf)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:17:45 +0200
Subject: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xf3'
In-Reply-To: <4120F820.4000703@fusiondementes.com>
References: <4120F820.4000703@fusiondementes.com>
Message-ID: <20040817061745.GA4259@barbucha.martin.net>

i had similar errors:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/home/martin/skripty/accounts.py", line 125, in ?
    main(sys.argv)
  File "/home/martin/skripty/accounts.py", line 119, in main
    print_accounts(accounts, url_part)        
  File "/home/martin/skripty/accounts.py", line 94, in print_accounts
    print str(i).encode("utf-8", "replace")
UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode characters in position
151-152: ordinal not in range(128)

- - - -

the solution seems to be:

0. string is not in unicode encoding (assumption)
1. before printing out, convert the string to unicode
2. when printing, convert to whatever charset you like

though i dont understand much why (ive solved it a minute ago :) the
code should be:

str = "any nonunicode string"
print unicode(str).encode("iso-8859-2", "replace")

comments:

1. why the string is not in unicode can have several reasons -- i guess:
	- does ogg stores tags in unicode?
	- you have parsed an xml file with encoding attribute set (that
is what i do)
	- etc

2. "replace" parameter in encode causes non-printable chars to be
replaced with '?' (you can use "ignore" or strict", see your python
doc)

3. the above will work _only_ _if_ the 'str' encoding is "iso-8859-2" --
a funny thing -- first line of code converts from unknown (but the
programmer must know it) to unicode and the second one converts it back
from unicode to unknown (now the programmer tells that secret to python
:)

4. i would like to know from any python expert whether/why/why not:

	* my assumptions are right

	* why is that behaviour? -- if you search google you get
thousands of errors like this -- with no proper solutions i must add

	* is there an easier portable way (no sitecustomize.py changes)
to do it

	* i was looking in site.py and there is deleted the
sys.setdefaultencoding() function, but from the comments i do
not know why -- you know it? why is user not allowed to change the
default encoding? it seems reasonable to me if he/she could do that.

thx.

m.



From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Wed Aug 25 09:08:10 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:08:10 +0200
Subject: module functions list
References: <cghu3v$afp$02$1@news.t-online.com>
	<mailman.2349.1093436280.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgi1l9$35r$03$1@news.t-online.com>
	<cgi2in$54a$03$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <cgi2vh$ps$04$1@news.t-online.com>

> sys.modules[__name__]

Ahh, that did it. Thanks. So far I don't care for classes vs. functions, but
the introspect tip will eventually come to use one day...

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From fumanchu at amor.org  Mon Aug 23 14:07:45 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:07:45 -0700
Subject: function taking scalar or list argument
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E45@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

beliavsky wrote:
> I can define a function that transforms either a scalar or 
> each element in
> a list as follows:
> 
> def twice(x):
>     try:
>         return map(twice,x)
>     except:
>         return 2*x
> 
> print twice(3) # 6
> print twice([1,4,9]) # [2,8,18]
> 
> Is this good style?

If you mention that behavior in a docstring, it's acceptable.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug 30 17:50:41 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 21:50:41 GMT
Subject: Size of a remote URL
References: <ch06ca$v17@odak26.prod.google.com>
	<4133a024$0$8090$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <4133a131$0$8090$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-30, Grant Edwards <grante at visi.com> wrote:
> On 2004-08-30, Justin <justin__devine at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> Here's one of your problems:

And here are the solutions to several of your other problems:

  http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Is this "BOOZE"?
                                  at               
                               visi.com            


From fumanchu at amor.org  Mon Aug 23 18:11:35 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:11:35 -0700
Subject: key words instead of predef
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E4A@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

I wrote:
> I expect to add another paragraph or two based on alternate keywords
> which people support (vocally *and* technically). I would say 
> all of the "*def" candidates could work. In the interest of 
> generating more content for that paragraph ;) here's the devil's
> advocate view of predef:
> 
> 1) It's not a word. But then "def" isn't either.
> 2) If it is a word, it's a verb. Dependent suite keywords tend to be
> adverbial. Perhaps there's a more adverbial word which means, "set up
> these items for later processing". Unfortunately for English, 
> this form
> of "predef" would be "predefining". Some synonym of 
> "prepare", perhaps?
> 
> I'll think about it some more.

How about "fix"? From OneLook (serious connotations):

verb:   make ready or suitable or equip in advance for a particular
purpose or for some use, event, etc (Example: "I was fixing to leave
town after I paid the hotel bill") verb:   set or place definitely
(Example: "Let's fix the date for the party!") 
verb:   make fixed, stable or stationary (Example: "Let's fix the
picture to the frame") 
verb:   cause to be firmly attached (Example: "She fixed her gaze on the
man") 
verb:   put (something somewhere) firmly (Example: "Fix your eyes on
this spot") noun:   the act of putting something in working order again
verb:   restore by replacing a part or putting together what is torn or
broken 
verb:   decide upon or fix definitely (Example: "Fix the variables") 

and now the hilarious connotations (:

noun: an exemption granted after influence (e.g., money) is brought to
bear (Example: "Collusion resulted in tax fixes for gamblers") 
noun:   something craved, especially an intravenous injection of a
narcotic drug (Example: "She needed a fix of chocolate") 
noun:   informal terms for a difficult situation (Example: "He got into
a terrible fix")
verb:   kill, preserve, and harden (tissue) in order to prepare for
microscopic study 
verb:   take vengeance on or get even (Example: "That'll fix him good!")

verb:   make infertile 

roflmao,


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From tchur at optushome.com.au  Sun Aug 22 15:51:12 2004
From: tchur at optushome.com.au (Tim Churches)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 05:51:12 +1000
Subject: Python future performance and speed
In-Reply-To: <roy-1B9035.10241422082004@reader1.panix.com>
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com> <7x4qmv6cwo.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<mailman.2135.1093150155.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-1B9035.10241422082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <1093204272.1267.21.camel@emilio>

On Mon, 2004-08-23 at 00:24, Roy Smith wrote:
> Tim Churches <tchur at optushome.com.au> wrote:
> > As a population health epidemiologist whose stock-in-trade is
> > manipulation and analysis of large health data sets, I have to say that
> > Python's run-time speed is almost always much faster than I would have
> > expected from such a dynamic language, but also almost always much
> > slower than I would like, especially when compared to widely-used (but
> > vastly expensive and sprawling) data manipulation environments such as
> > SAS system (see http://www.sas.com) which is the "industry standard" in
> > my particular field.
> 
> It should not be surprising at all that a general-purpose tool will be 
> beaten by a domain-specific tool in that domain.  SAS, as you say, is 
> designed to munch huge numeric data sets.  That is its only reason for 
> existing, and it's got 20 or 30 years of development effort behind it to 
> make it do that one task as fast as possible.

Sure, and as a programming environment SAS is both primitive (eg still
has no way to easily create user-defined functions in its main language,
and is forced to rely on macros instead) and confusing (since it needs
five or six distinct sub-languages to cope with both special-purpose and
general-purpose programming tasks eg uses Java called from its own PL/1
and Fortran-influenced "data step" language to do many things - yuck!)
when compared to Python. However, none of that is a reason for not to
wish that Python were faster than it is in some circumstances - mostly
when doing dumb stuff like iterating over a file. That's why Psyco and
increasingly Pyrex are so valuable, and why the fruits of the Starkiller
and Pypy projects are so eagerly anticipated.
-- 

Tim C

PGP/GnuPG Key 1024D/EAF993D0 available from keyservers everywhere
or at http://members.optushome.com.au/tchur/pubkey.asc
Key fingerprint = 8C22 BF76 33BA B3B5 1D5B  EB37 7891 46A9 EAF9 93D0





From paddy3118 at netscape.net  Sun Aug 22 01:41:18 2004
From: paddy3118 at netscape.net (Paddy McCarthy)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 22:41:18 -0700
Subject: Parsing C header files with python
References: <873c2gzftf.fsf@emit.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <2ae25c6b.0408212141.42f85717@posting.google.com>

Ian McConnell <ian at emit.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:<873c2gzftf.fsf at emit.demon.co.uk>...
> I've got a header file which lists a whole load of C functions of the form
> 
>   int func1(float *arr, int len, double arg1);
>   int func2(float **arr, float *arr2, int len, double arg1, double arg2);
> 
> It's a numerical library so all functions return an int and accept varying
> combinations of float pointers, ints and doubles. 
> 
> What's the easiest way breaking down this header file into a list of
> functions and their argument using python? Is there something that will
> parse this (Perhaps a protoize.py) ? I don't want (or understand!) a full C
> parser, just this simple case.
> 
<<SNIP>>
> 
> Thanks,
>         Ian
Would this suffice:

<CODE>

>>> import re
>>> import pprint
>>> hdr='''  int func1(float *arr, int len, double arg1);
  int func2(float **arr, float *arr2, int len, double arg1, double arg2);

'''
>>> print hdr
  int func1(float *arr, int len, double arg1);
  int func2(float **arr, float *arr2, int len, double arg1, double arg2);


>>> func2args = {}
>>> for line in hdr.split('\n'):
	line = [word for word in re.split(r'[\s,;()]+', line) if word]
	if len(line)>2:func2args[line[1]] = line[2:]

	
>>> pprint.pprint(func2args)
{'func1': ['float', '*arr', 'int', 'len', 'double', 'arg1'],
 'func2': ['float',
           '**arr',
           'float',
           '*arr2',
           'int',
           'len',
           'double',
           'arg1',
           'double',
           'arg2']}
>>> 

</CODE>


From adurdin at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 23:38:26 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 13:38:26 +1000
Subject: Iteration over Lists and Strings
In-Reply-To: <cUSXc.56768$xi6.42946@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <cUSXc.56768$xi6.42946@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a04082720387bebee63@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 03:22:48 GMT, DeepBleu <deepbleu at deepbleu.org> wrote:
> What is going on?  Can someone clarify this to me?  And how can I ensure
> that the iteration produces the absolute index number **without** doing
> something like:
> >>a = 'abba'
> >>k = len(a)
> >>for m in range(0, k):
> >>  print a[m], m

The index() method looks up the first index of the given object in the
list/sequence. What you want is to use the enumerate() builtin:

>>>a = 'abba'
>>>for i, c in enumerate(a):
...    print c, i
...
a 0
b 1
b 2
a 3


From ben at benlast.com  Sat Aug 21 05:47:18 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:47:18 +0100
Subject: Why are strings immutable?
In-Reply-To: <chzVc.288437$a24.71659@attbi_s03>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPAEMOCEAA.ben@benlast.com>

> From: Brent W. Hughes
> I kind of hate to have to convert a string into a list, manipulate it, and
> then convert it back into a string.  Why not make strings mutable?
There are a whole host of good reasons, mostly to do with the way data types
are seen from a Python point of view.  However, if you're converting strings
to lists and back, you're probably using recipes from another language (such
as C, perhaps?) where there are more Pythonesque equivalents.  Take a look
at all the string methods for starters; they operate on the contents of a
string and return the modified result.  It's common to stack them up, as in:

myString.strip().lower().split()

It's sometimes useful to remember that you can iterate over a string
character by characters (technically, in substrings one character long):

>>>for x in "abc":
...  print x
a
b
c

What is it you're trying to do?

b



From kveretennicov at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 16 14:08:16 2004
From: kveretennicov at yahoo.com (Konstantin Veretennicov)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 11:08:16 -0700
Subject: Best programming language
References: <mailman.1718.1092639914.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <5155aad2.0408161008.40c57262@posting.google.com>

Roman Suzi <rnd at onego.ru> wrote in message news:<mailman.1718.1092639914.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> ;-)
> 
> Just type into google
> "best programming language"
> and press (I am lucky)
> 
> 
> Sincerely yours, Roman Suzi

Just type in "programming language" and look at #1
;-)

- kv


From ramen at lackingtalent.com  Fri Aug 27 17:31:31 2004
From: ramen at lackingtalent.com (Dave Benjamin)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 21:31:31 -0000
Subject: Alex Martelli: Welcome back!
References: <mailman.2545.1093640480.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrncivb0i.t6n.ramen@lackingtalent.com>

In article <mailman.2545.1093640480.5135.python-list at python.org>, Michael Sparks wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Dave Benjamin wrote:
> 
>> It's nice to see you around here again!
> 
> It certainly is - and back with a BANG :-)

Yeah, no doubt. =)

-- 
 .:[ dave benjamin: ramen/[sp00] -:- spoomusic.com -:- ramenfest.com ]:.
        "talking about music is like dancing about architecture."


From paul at boddie.org.uk  Tue Aug 17 06:32:06 2004
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 03:32:06 -0700
Subject: music resources
References: <CObUc.124363$J06.99175@pd7tw2no>
Message-ID: <5339b60d.0408170232.38465612@posting.google.com>

"Elaine Jackson" <elainejackson7355 at home.com> wrote in message news:<CObUc.124363$J06.99175 at pd7tw2no>...
> Is there such a thing as an executable language for music? If not, why not?
> And if yes, where can I find it? Naturally the ideal thing would be if such a
> language were implemented within python, but I would be willing to learn a
> lesser programming language if I had a reasonable assurance that it had what
> I'm looking for. I have, of course, googled for a solution, and I may have
> even found it, but if so I didn't recognize it as such. Any pointers will be
> mucho appreciado.

Once upon a time there was a programming language called AMPLE, which
supposedly resembled Forth or was at least a stack-oriented language,
that could be used to compose music with certain 8-bit hardware. I
searched for "AMPLE music composition" on Google and found this link:

http://www.colinfraser.com/m5000/m5000.htm

I can imagine that Python together with the Python Midi Package...

http://www.mxm.dk/products/public/pythonmidi

...could be used to produce similar kinds of compositions. The most
significant issues for me are generally related to getting my sound
system to function in a decent fashion, but it would be interesting to
look at this in more depth.

Paul


From donnal at donnal.net  Mon Aug 23 13:39:47 2004
From: donnal at donnal.net (Donnal Walter)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:39:47 -0500
Subject: telnet 'connection reset by peer'
In-Reply-To: <cgd95a$ftt$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>
References: <mailman.2213.1093280012.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgd95a$ftt$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <cgda54$2d2$1@sea.gmane.org>

Eddie Corns wrote:

> Donnal Walter <donnal at donnal.net> writes:
> 
> 
>>On Windows XP I am able to connect to a remote telnet server from the 
>>command prompt using:
> 
> 
>>telnet nnn.nnn.nnn.nnn 23
> 
> 
>>where nnn.nnn.nnn.nnn is the IP address of the host. But using 
>>telnetlib, this code returns the traceback that follows:
> 
> 
>>import telnetlib
>>host = 'nnn.nnn.nnn.nnn'
>>tn = telnetlib.Telnet(host, 23)
>>tn.read_until("Enter device name?")
> 
> 
> 
>>Traceback (most recent call last):
>>  File "C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\mindwrapper\test\telnet.py", line 
>>4, in ?
>>    tn.read_until("Enter device name?")
>>  File "C:\Python23\lib\telnetlib.py", line 316, in read_until
>>    self.fill_rawq()
>>  File "C:\Python23\lib\telnetlib.py", line 521, in fill_rawq
>>    buf = self.sock.recv(50)
>>socket.error: (10054, 'Connection reset by peer')
> 
> 
>>Is there some parameter that I need to set in order to connect using the 
>>telnetlib client? Thanks.
> 
> 
> No, that should work, to a reasonably conforming telnet server.  Try doing
> tn.set_debuglevel(2) before the read_until() to see what's coming back.

Telnet(nnn.nn.nnn.nnn,23): recv 
'\xff\xfb\x03\xff\xfd\x03\xff\xfb\x01\xff\xfd\x1
7\xff\xfb\x00\xff\xfd\x00'
Telnet(nnn.nn.nnn.nnn,23): IAC WILL 3
Telnet(nnn.nn.nnn.nnn,23): IAC DO 3
Telnet(nnn.nn.nnn.nnn,23): IAC WILL 1
Telnet(nnn.nn.nnn.nnn,23): IAC DO 23
Telnet(nnn.nn.nnn.nnn,23): IAC WILL 0
Telnet(nnn.nn.nnn.nnn,23): IAC DO 0
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\mindwrapper\test\telnet.py", line 
5, in ?
     tn.read_until("Enter device name?")
   File "C:\Python23\lib\telnetlib.py", line 316, in read_until
     self.fill_rawq()
   File "C:\Python23\lib\telnetlib.py", line 521, in fill_rawq
     buf = self.sock.recv(50)
socket.error: (10054, 'Connection reset by peer')

Thank you for the suggestion. Can you help me interpret the feedback?

> Does it happen instantly or is something timing out?

No, it always happens instantly.

Thanks.

Donnal Walter
Arkansas Children's Hospital




From jeff_news at lindholm.org  Tue Aug 24 14:17:26 2004
From: jeff_news at lindholm.org (Jeff Lindholm)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:17:26 GMT
Subject: Time-date as an integer
References: <mailman.2271.1093328889.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <WCLWc.4446$ZC7.3158@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com>

import datetime;
def calcNodeId(self):
    t = datetime.utcnow()
    val = ( (t.toordinal() * 24 * 60 * 60) + (t.hour * 60 * 60) + (t.minute 
* 60) + t.second ) * 1000000
    if val <= self._dTime:
        val = self._dTime + 1
    self._dTime = val
    return val

This should hadle your leap years. You will of course loose leap seconds, 
but I honestly not sure where you get those.....

"Charles Hixson" <charleshixsn at earthlink.net> wrote in message 
news:mailman.2271.1093328889.5135.python-list at python.org...
> This is a concept, not a finished program, and an extract from a class at 
> that...so forgive any illegalities, but:
> import    datetime;
>  def    calcNodeId(self):
>    t    =    datetime.utcnow()
>    val    =    t.year *    133920000000    +          #    12 months
>                    t.month    *    11160000000    +    #    31 days
>                    t.hour    *    3600000000    +         #    60 minutes
>                    t.minute    *    60000000    +         #    60 seconds
>                    t.second    *    1000000    +    t.microsecond
>    if    val <=    self._dTime:
>      val    =    self._dTime + 1
>    self._dTime    =    val
>    return    val
>
> This is the best that I've been able to come up with in getting a 
> date-time as an integer.  It feels like one of the time or date libraries 
> should have a better solution, but if so, I haven't found it.  Can anyone 
> suggest a better approach? 




From theller at python.net  Fri Aug 27 10:38:07 2004
From: theller at python.net (Thomas Heller)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:38:07 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no> <cgnbc4$7ul$1@ork.noris.net>
	<mailman.2523.1093613536.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <sma8y7cg.fsf@python.net>

Aaron Bingham <bingham at cenix-bioscience.com> writes:

> Wolfram Kraus wrote:
>
>> Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>>> how can Emacs tell?  if I press TAB and thus ask Emacs to re-indent
>>> the line, that's what it will do.  arguably, the correct fix is to
>>> disable the "clever" re-indentation code of Emacs since it's too easy
>>> to fool it, but this makes coding more awkward in other cases.  it
>>> also doesn't solve cut-n-paste errors.
>>
>> You can use C-c < or C-c > in Emacs to (de-)indent regions.
>
> Or C-M-\ to re-indent the region "correctly" with respect to its
> context.  This works far more reliably the using TAB to re-indent
> single lines.

How do you enter that on a german keyboard?

Thomas


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 28 12:05:23 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 18:05:23 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<tyf3c28ps1t.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
	<1ry8k0d2az.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87acwgvy51.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<2pb36dFibuj3U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<41309d32$0$65611$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <1gj8pg5.1e6z0kiprvfxuN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Grant Edwards <grante at visi.com> wrote:
   ...
> IMO, the only non-ugly, non-hack solution would be to have
> another set of delimters that are used as tuple-constructors so
> tha the syntax for a literal tuple, a literal list, and a
> literal dictionary are consistent.

I think that a hypothetical greenfield-designed language similar to
Python might do without literal tuples, lists, and dictionaries, just
like Python today does without literal sets (in 2.4 where they're a
built-in type).  It would make some constructs more verbose,
specifically using words instead of punctuation, but I think that,
overall, that is reasonably Pythonic.

list(a, b, c) instead of [a, b, c] would not be horribly heavy syntax, I
think.  You can already use list() instead of [] -- just as dict()
instead of {} -- and I think sometimes that's more readable, even having
both choices.  tuple would work like list.  dict isn't quite so obvious,
except where the keys are constant strings that happen to be identifiers
in which case, even today, dict(a=1,b=2,c=3) is fine.  But I'm sure fine
solutions could be identified, as, also, for the issue of how to
differentiate from list(x) meaning [x] and list(x) meaning the same as
[foo for foo in x] -- for example list(*x) would also mean the latter,
so maybe that's the solution for this.

I think 'commas makes tuples when the commas don't mean anything else'
should stay, though, because somedict[x, y] or a,b=b,a depend on that,
and I find them just too sweet to lose!-)

This of course is all pretty hypothetical, just like the idea of
introducing a new set of delimiters -- won't happen in Python, not even
in 3.0.  Just musing about some details of language design.


Alex


From 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de  Wed Aug 18 11:09:57 2004
From: 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de (510046470588-0001 at t-online.de)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 17:09:57 +0200
Subject: How big can a Python program be?
References: <903b3fba.0408170333.49ce3944@posting.google.com>
	<412204d5$1$28243$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk>
	<903b3fba.0408180619.4d41027e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <874qn01nzu.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>

vronskij at post.sk writes:
> No way. This was just another question. One  programmer told me that
> he
> can roughly handle max 10 000 lines  in C language. I was curious
> about Python. I always hear that Python can be used on larger projects
> than e.j. PERL because it is Object Oriented and cleanly designed.
> What is a larger project? Mumbers revail more.
> 

in scheme I may handle 1000 times more code than in any infix language 

Klaus Schilling


From antispam  Mon Aug 30 21:08:06 2004
From: antispam (Andrew)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 18:08:06 -0700
Subject: Disabling Javascript and Other Features
Message-ID: <10j7jrqp25n9s78@corp.supernews.com>

Hi

I would like to build an application that will let me turn off and on all
javascript and other features in my Internet Explorer web browser I
understand this would probably be done by manipulating the registery is this
correct

If so what registery entries would I have to look at or is there another way
and would I be using the winreg module to do this or is there others that I
would need


sorry not really 100% python question so any help is appreciated

Cheers

Andrew




From sharidas at zeomega.com  Fri Aug 13 01:46:21 2004
From: sharidas at zeomega.com (Satchidanand Haridas)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:16:21 +0530
Subject: while and if
In-Reply-To: <edb71259c8376cf98feaf5f24bd932fc@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>
References: <e0197c1847cb38af22dceeb8aaa6e679@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>	<mailman.1581.1092372820.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<edb71259c8376cf98feaf5f24bd932fc@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>
Message-ID: <411C55AD.8030100@zeomega.com>


Calvin79 wrote:

>Hi Satchit,
>
>Can I also ask how could I stop two of the same letters being given i.e.
>aa or dd and also how would I stop the same letter being repeated with
>only one space between i.e. a b a or c a c
>
>Thanks,
>
>Calvin
>
>  
>

Hi,

You will have to maintain the previous two states to prevent the letters 
repeating within the next two choices. The code below will do something 
like that. I don't know if it is the best solution:

<code>

import random

things = xrange(int(raw_input("choose no of things (1-8)? ")))

state = [None,None]

for x in things:
    tmp = random.choice('abcd')
    print state
    while tmp in state[0:2]:
        tmp = random.choice('abcd')
    print "choice ",x+1," is ", tmp
    state[x%2] = tmp

</code>

Regards,
Satchit


From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Fri Aug  6 22:46:23 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 19:46:23 -0700
Subject: Logging with multiple loggers/handlers
In-Reply-To: <2e37dc1.0408060108.3f3a27dd@posting.google.com>
References: <10em3kass56nq9b@corp.supernews.com>
	<10ep21af0c9kv4c@corp.supernews.com>
	<2e37dc1.0408060108.3f3a27dd@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <10h8gj0jdh55q50@corp.supernews.com>

Vinay Sajip wrote:

>>While it's fairly likely that my interpretation of the docs is not 
>>something that many people will come up with, I think it might be 
>>worthwhile to expand the example sections to actually show how to use 
>>multiple heirarchical loggers.  Had there been an example to follow, I 
>>certainly wouldn't have made this mistake.
>>    
>>
>
>The example in http://www.red-dove.com/python_logging.html#config does
>show in bold the items used by the configuration API, and says that
>the others are just used by the GUI configurator. Perhaps "channel"
>was the wrong name to use for a private element in the configurator,
>but it's done now.
>  
>

May I suggest changing the wording of the getLogger() docs?  I think 
that simply adding a few words to a single sentence will clarify things 
considerably.

- Here, "name" is synonymous with "channel name".
+ Here, "name" is synonymous with "fully qualified channel name".

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From vijay_srr at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 30 02:46:08 2004
From: vijay_srr at yahoo.com (Vijay Sankar)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 12:16:08 +0530
Subject: Problems running coverage.py
Message-ID: <cguip4$pcf$1@news.mch.sbs.de>

Hi,

I am using coverage.py to check the code coverage for some of my Python
scripts.

For a particular script which uses 'exit' calls, I am getting the following
error when I invoke the script with the -x option for coverage.

Error in sys.exitfunc:
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "D:\Python23\lib\atexit.py", line 20, in _run_exitfuncs
    func(*targs, **kargs)
  File "D:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\coverage.py", line 207, in save
    cache = open(self.cache, 'wb')
TypeError: an integer is required

Looks like coverage.py is not able to record the coverage data on calling
exit.
Does anybody know how to solve this?

Thanks,
Vijay




From agriff at tin.it  Sat Aug 21 10:03:56 2004
From: agriff at tin.it (Andrea Griffini)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:03:56 GMT
Subject: My only complaint about Python
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<CuCdnUCvWK5XSLncRVn-jw@giganews.com>
	<sr3iv1-b5c1.ln1@eskimo.tundraware.com>
	<874qmxj81k.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>
Message-ID: <3flei0t87s2qpsunb94mrbfb5fc4nplnsl@4ax.com>

On 21 Aug 2004 08:53:59 +0200, 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de wrote:

>> They do.  MSC/C++ is now available at NO cost:
>> 
>
>no cost is not the same as free

Do you mean that there are limitations about legal use of
VC toolkit 2003 for building a python interpreter or that
you actually need to see the source code of the C compiler
to build python ?

Andrea


From rattan at cps.cmich.edu  Thu Aug 26 01:23:46 2004
From: rattan at cps.cmich.edu (Ishwar Rattan)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 22:23:46 -0700
Subject: Proposal for removing self
References: <cgj4jf$15a@odak26.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <938a4680.0408252123.4d71432e@posting.google.com>

"Brett C." <brett at python.org> wrote in message news:<cgj4jf$15a at odak26.prod.google.com>...
> No thanks.  This is a common suggestion and Guido has said it ain't
> going to happen.  I personally like 'self' a lot because ambiguity from
> reading code goes away.  It is easy to not see a '.' but not so for
> 'self.' .  It also makes teaching OOP to people much easier since you
> don't need to explain why some variables and method calls are to the
> instance but  other are not.  "Explicit is better than implicit".

I concur for keeping self intact, it does provide clarity in code writing
and reading.

-ishwar


From sakesun at boonthavorn.com  Thu Aug 19 22:43:29 2004
From: sakesun at boonthavorn.com (Sakesun Roykiattisak)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:43:29 +0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <20040819231139.D039A1E4003@bag.python.org>
References: <20040819231139.D039A1E4003@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <41256551.7040301@boonthavorn.com>


I'm 28. Have been using python for just one year.  I was first 
introduced to programming when I'm in 11 with 6502 machine (Apple II and 
Oric-I)
So far I have 2 epiphany in my programming life. The first time is when 
I finished chapther 3 of the Design Patterns book.
The second time is when I finished my first non-trivial python program.

BTW, The histrogram suggest that python is not being used as the first 
programming language as much as it should be.

>
> I spotted some errors in your list, added new entries, and made a 
> histogram: http://roelschroeven.net/pythonages/
>




From jbperez808 at wahoo.com  Fri Aug  6 22:58:09 2004
From: jbperez808 at wahoo.com (Jon Perez)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 10:58:09 +0800
Subject: threads: not locking read-only objects
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061528230.25906-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
References: <2ni4b4F16u92U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061528230.25906-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <2niuanF1ee0tU1@uni-berlin.de>

Hmmm... here's what's going on.  I have a dictionary of
logged in users called 'whoison' that's updated in the main
thread (and only in the main thread) with a:

whoison['username']="timeoflogin"  # to add someone new

and

del whoison['username']  # to remove someone who's logged out


Do the above count as atomic?


The worker threads do the following read-only operation:

for x in whoison:
   print x,whoison[x]

Looking at the read-only code though I just realized
something.... if a dictionary entry in 'whoison' is deleted
by the main thread while the 'for x in whoison' is executing
then what would happen?

Looks like I'm going to need a lock after all even for the
read-only operations...?



Christopher T King wrote:

> On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Jon Perez wrote:
> 
> 
>>Is it safe to not put a lock on an object if it will always
>>be read-only in other threads and will only ever be written to
>>in just one and always the same one thread?
> 
> 
> Only if the writes are guaranteed to be atomic: if the object is ever 
> temporarily left in an inconsistent state by the writer (due to a thread 
> switch), the readers will read inconsistent data.  If you are sure this 
> can't happen, then yes, doing so is safe.
> 


From glc at well.com  Sun Aug 15 09:44:13 2004
From: glc at well.com (Greg Chapman)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:44:13 GMT
Subject: Problems with PyGILState_Ensure () and PyGILState_Release ()
References: <cfi9rv$ijq$1@fuerst.cs.uni-magdeburg.de>
Message-ID: <5upuh0hivs0mfg2bu6ceu73o9jsivuql2i@4ax.com>

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:49:09 +0200, "Mathias Mamsch" <Domoran at yahoo.de> wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>i am writing a python extension in c++.   In the extension a c++ thread
>calls back into python. I did it like this:
>
>---- c++ code ----
>PyGILState_STATE gstate;
>gstate = PyGILState_Ensure ();
>
>... do some work ...
>// call the python callback (Func)
>result = PyEval_CallObject(Func, arglist);
>... so some cleanup ...
>
>PyGILState_Release (gstate);
>return
>-----------------
>
>the callback is executed properly, but the PyGILState_Release gives me the
>following error:
>"Fatal Python error: PyThreadState_Delete: tstate is still current"
>
>What can be wrong here? Any suggestions?
>In my understanding this error should not occur ... Is this a known bug
>maybe? I am using Python 2.4a1 under windows.
>
>Thanks in advance, Mathias Mamsch
>
>

Looking at the code for PyGILState_Release (in pystate.c), it looks like what
must be happening is a disagreement between tcur->gilstate_counter and oldstate
(tcur is the current thread state and oldstate is the parameter passed in).
Specifically, you appear to be passing in something other than
PyGILState_UNLOCKED (so PyEval_ReleaseThread is not called, leaving tcur as
still the current thread), but tcur->gilstate_counter is decremented to 0,
causing the attempt to free tcur.

So it looks like the cause could be either 1) something writing to gstate (in
your code above) between the calls to PyGILState_Ensure and PyGILState_Release,
or 2) something making an extra call to PyGILState_Release (i.e., one not
matched by a call to PyGILState_Ensure).  Could your code be doing either of
those things?

---
Greg Chapman



From nav+posts at bandersnatch.org  Wed Aug  4 15:35:35 2004
From: nav+posts at bandersnatch.org (Nick Vargish)
Date: 04 Aug 2004 15:35:35 -0400
Subject: Decorator syntax (was Re: PEP 318 - PyFIT comments)
References: <10h24oace15n97a@news.supernews.com>
	<du7zn5a1zxp.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>
Message-ID: <m3y8ku1yt4.fsf@tanelorn.bandersnatch.org>

Ville Vainio <ville at spammers.com> writes:

> This syntax is out there with backticks and print>>.

I agree.

I just don't know where else to voice my opinion on this matter, but I
absolutely hate the new decorator syntax. Sorry, I just had to get
that off my chest.

Nick

-- 
#  sigmask  ||  0.2  ||  20030107  ||  public domain  ||  feed this to a python
print reduce(lambda x,y:x+chr(ord(y)-1),' Ojdl!Wbshjti!=obwAcboefstobudi/psh?')


From claird at lairds.us  Sun Aug 22 15:08:03 2004
From: claird at lairds.us (Cameron Laird)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 19:08:03 GMT
Subject: 100 % portable ?
References: <cga19s$27b@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <jk6nv1-1jj.ln1@lairds.us>

In article <cga19s$27b at odah37.prod.google.com>,
Sridhar R <sridharinfinity at gmail.com> wrote:
			.
			.
			.
>Tk looks ugly in linux. Gtk is also good, but rendering is sluggish in
			.
			.
			.
Yes and no.  Default Tk settings look Motify, which is indeed old-
fashioned.  However, there are several initializations running
around to make Linux Tk look, among other things, like Windows; I
gather many people like that look.


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Mon Aug 23 10:38:41 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:38:41 GMT
Subject: J2 paper 0.2.1
References: <mailman.2180.1093238695.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <RjnWc.9730$Jn5.6324@fe1.texas.rr.com>

Beautiful work - where do I sign?  (as a supporter, of course)

-- Paul




From nhodgson at bigpond.net.au  Thu Aug 26 19:56:30 2004
From: nhodgson at bigpond.net.au (Neil Hodgson)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 23:56:30 GMT
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2457.1093542207.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <OMuXc.9117$D7.2317@news-server.bigpond.net.au>

Robert Brewer:

> Isn't *anyone* going to vote against? Or at least formally abstain?
> _Somebody_ out there must disagree strongly with this.

   I suppose I should abstain since I haven't been able to generate enough
enthusiasm for or against J2. I have opinions about the option but they
haven't really coalesced into a position. My preference was for list before
def due to its familiarity from IDL but have some appreciation for other
options.

   Neil




From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 19 15:37:46 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:37:46 -0400
Subject: Py2Exe PROBLEM
In-Reply-To: <81a41dd.0408191109.1fc98889@posting.google.com>
References: <81a41dd.0408190023.44d34c44@posting.google.com>
	<2tGdncgUvpKRD7ncRVn-oQ@powergate.ca>
	<81a41dd.0408191109.1fc98889@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <-MOdnSCcH4eNnLjcRVn-vg@powergate.ca>

Lad wrote:

> Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message news:<2tGdncgUvpKRD7ncRVn-oQ at powergate.ca>...
>>Also please explain what "blackbox" and "timing" are, if
>>they are part of the problem.
>>
> Yes, I changed import rgs.py to import rgs but I still receive
>  >>The following modules appear to be missing
> 
>>>['blackbox', 'timing', 'rgs.py']

Again, what are "blackbox" and "timing"?  Just two modules
which rgs.py imports, or something else entirely?

> When I try to start the exe file I get 
> 
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "rgs.pyc", line 561, in OnFileHistory
>     
>   File "pickle.pyc", line 1390, in load
>   File "pickle.pyc", line 872, in load
>   File "pickle.pyc", line 985, in load_string
> LookupError: unknown encoding: string-escape
> 
> Can you please help again?

Somebody will generally help, whether me or others...

The above actually looks like you might not be using
the right version of something.  Try running the same
version of python that you used to generate the py2exe'd
file and type the following in it:

 >>> r'tes\t'.decode('string-escape')

(Yes, just as I did there... complete with r and \t )

Does it give the same error?  If it does, then you
probably don't have Python 2.3 installed...

In any case, if you can't figure it out, post the version
of Python and py2exe that you are using.  Also make
sure you have fully tested the application *before* running
py2exe on it, so you'll know whether the problem involves
py2exe or not.

Note that based on what you are showing, there is now nothing
wrong with your py2exe setup: it generated a .exe and you
can run it.  The fact that it is failing points to a different
problem, not py2exe.

-Peter


From robhboyd at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 18 12:27:55 2004
From: robhboyd at yahoo.com (Robert Boyd)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:27:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20040818162755.54502.qmail@web14102.mail.yahoo.com>

40. But I'm a late-comer to programming (my 'back in
the day' can't compete with other 40 yo programmers).
So maybe I could say I'm more like 25. ;)


--- Lucas Raab <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote:

> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is
> the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python??
> Something to think
> about....
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 



		
__________________________________
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From DesertLinux at netscape.net  Tue Aug 24 20:35:57 2004
From: DesertLinux at netscape.net (Byron)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:35:57 GMT
Subject: Book Recommendation
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2318.1093392107.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <pan.2004.08.24.19.37.35.678632@scrpy.org>
	<mailman.2318.1093392107.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <N9RWc.12251$3O3.3302@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>

Darren Kirby wrote:
> I have found that "How to Think like a Computer Scientist: Python"
> (http://ibiblio.org/obp/thinkCS/python/english/) is a very good resource. The 
> book tries to explain basic programming concepts common to all languages 
> using Python. 

"How to Think like a Computer Scientist: Python Programming" is an 
excellent, FREE book and I would highly that you check it out.  I 
learned Python this way and would sincerely recommend that you check it 
out also.

You can download it for free at:
http://www.greenteapress.com

Byron
---


From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Wed Aug 25 18:55:57 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:55:57 -0700
Subject: Proposal for removing self
References: <T_7Xc.61360$Fg5.2281@attbi_s53>
Message-ID: <h4ivv1-7c.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

Brent W. Hughes wrote:
> When doing object-oriented stuff, it bothers me to have to type
> "self" so many times.  I propose that Python allow the programmer to
> optionally type ".variable" instead of "self.variable" to mean the
> same thing.  Of course, the interpreter would have to be more careful
> about detecting floats that begin with just a period as in ".5".
> What are your thoughts?

When I started doing Python, it annoyed me.  Now many years later
I definitely wouldn't change it.  Guido has very good taste!

Roger 




From tjreedy at udel.edu  Fri Aug 13 16:32:24 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:32:24 -0400
Subject: secret message hidden in an image
References: <411cd06a$0$3888$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>
Message-ID: <cfj8go$5vp$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Guyon Mor?e" <gumuz at NO_looze_SPAM.net> wrote in message
news:411cd06a$0$3888$4d4ebb8e at news.nl.uu.net...
> hi, i wrote a little script which can 'hide' a piece of text in an image
> using python and PIL
>
> i wrote about it on my blog, if you like to read it go to:
>
> http://gumuz.looze.net/blogger/2004/08/message-in-image.html

For those who don't know, this is called steganography.  An interesting
challenge is to embed a message in a way that is both hard to detect and
that survives lossy compression, as with .jpgs.

Terry J. Reedy





From tdelaney at avaya.com  Tue Aug 10 18:24:35 2004
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy))
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:24:35 +1000
Subject: Multiple inheritance with a common base class
Message-ID: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01CF3F82@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

Markus Bertheau wrote:

>> Using super will ensure that you get a reliable chain of method
>> calls. In this case it means that Multi.__init__ calls
>> LeafA.__init__ which calls LeafB.__init__ which then calls
>> CommonBase.__init__. Note that LeafA propogates the call to LeafB
>> even though LeafA has no knowledge of the existence of LeafB.
>
> That is what I needed to know. Thanks. It should probably be noted in
> the paragraph about multiple inheritance.

You may also wish to look at my "improved autosuper" recipe in the
cookbook.
http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/286195

I've actually got a Pyrex version as well now that's about twice as fast
- I really need to put this somewhere for download ...

Tim Delaney 


From roy at panix.com  Fri Aug 13 11:47:07 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:47:07 -0400
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<h4nph0lprkrhj95tecvtmkpl5hm52815j3@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <roy-8AE05C.11470713082004@reader1.panix.com>

In article <h4nph0lprkrhj95tecvtmkpl5hm52815j3 at 4ax.com>,
 Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> On 13 Aug 2004 07:15:14 -0700, beliavsky at aol.com declaimed the following
> in comp.lang.python:
> 
> > One of the most commmon reasons programmers cite for not trying Python
> > is that indentation determines the program flow -- they think its
> > weird. I think programmers who actually try Python adapt quickly and
> > do not find the indentation rules to be a problem.
> > 
> 	Teach them FORTRAN-IV...
> 
> 	A source line is limited to 80 characters
> 	Statements start in column 7
> 	Statements end in column 72 (or was it 71)
> 	Columns 73 (72) through 80 can be used for an option sequence
> number
> 	If a statement is too long for one line, you put a continuation
> mark character (any character can be used) in column 6 of the next line,
> then continue with the statement
> 	Put a "C" in column 1 to start a comment line

In some versions, a "D" in column 1 indicated a debug line, which was 
conditionally included depending on some external compile flag.

But, you have to remember that in those days, CPU time was an expensive 
and scarce resource, and languages were designed to be easy for the 
computer to process.  The thought of making the machine do something 
that a person could do themselves was absurd.


From bh at intevation.de  Sat Aug 21 12:44:10 2004
From: bh at intevation.de (Bernhard Herzog)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:44:10 +0200
Subject: Fate of lambda, Functional Programming in Python...
References: <412636D1.6070808@noaa.gov>
	<mailman.2073.1093028474.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<41265E67.A08409A6@juno.com>
Message-ID: <s9zacwoxwyt.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>

Jeff Sandys <sandysj at juno.com> writes:

> How about this use of lambda?
> (from another post 'RE: How to sort this kind of list easily?' today)
[...]
> |  Or if you want to sort only on your Id, use a lambda:
> |  l.sort(lambda x,y: cmp(x[0],y[0]))

@l.sort
def sort_on_zeroth(x, y):
    return cmp(x[0], y[0])

Gives a whole new meaning to decorate-sort-undecorate ;-)

   Bernhard

-- 
Intevation GmbH                                 http://intevation.de/
Skencil                                http://sketch.sourceforge.net/
Thuban                                  http://thuban.intevation.org/


From jess.austin at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 16:48:34 2004
From: jess.austin at gmail.com (Jess Austin)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 13:48:34 -0700
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>
	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>

Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list at python.org>...
>
> Not exactly, but it would include defining those.  One way to think 
> about metadata is that it includes all information *about* an object, 
> but no information *used by* the object.
> 
> If we were to have a conversation about this conversation, then we would 
> be having a "meta-conversation."  /metadata/ is data that describes 
> data.  metadata for a function would be data that describes the 
> function; data *about* the function as opposed to data *used by* the 
> function.  For example:

Here I think you're making an unwarranted assumption.  There is
currently nothing stopping an object from using information about
itself to do its job.  And this is sometimes a useful freedom.  As an
example, you might have subclasses whose only real purpose is to keep
track of their class and metadata, and have all functionality provided
by their superclass:

class supe(object):
    """this docstring is rarely frobnosticated"""
    def do_something_based_on_metadata():
        frobnosticate(self.__doc__)

class sub1(supe):
    """I am sub1"""

class sub2(supe):
    """I am sub2"""

Something like this could often be considered premature
objectification, but I've used it successfully.  Also, you'll notice
that these are classes rather than simple functions - I admit I've
never had a need to think about function metadata before.

However, I know that many people have a specific view of metadata and
don't really see how decorators fit in.  To be frank, I think pep318
shoehorned in metadata to pretend that there was a wider application
area for decoration than there really is.  The current quite minimal
support for metadata is sufficient for 99% of metadata use cases.  My
example has worked in Python for some time.  I know that decorators
would allow different behaviors to be arbitrarily assigned to various
pieces of metadata, but that doesn't seem like a big win for code
maintainability.  If anyone decided to support pep318 based solely on
a love of metadata, he made a mistake.

I'm intrigued by decorators anyway, and in no small part because it
seems that they should be able to completely replace metaclasses,
which are themselves totally unrelated to metadata.  In fact, that's
what at first prompted me to read a thread with the title, "Are
decorators really that different from metaclasses..."  Class
decorators wouldn't be so different from metaclasses, but J2 or even
@pie are much better syntaxes than the current metaclass syntax.

In another post in this thread Anthony Baxter said they were
different.  I'll respond directly to that post.

later,
Jess


From thats at it.com  Sat Aug  7 21:10:32 2004
From: thats at it.com (Baalbek)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 03:10:32 +0200
Subject: Paul Graham on Python hackers
In-Reply-To: <3064b51d.0408061127.32536826@posting.google.com>
References: <3064b51d.0408061127.32536826@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <n3fRc.191$%y3.3116@news4.e.nsc.no>

beliavsky at aol.com wrote:
> also choosing a community. The programmers you'll be able to hire to
> work on a Java project won't be as smart as the ones you could get to
> work on a project written in Python. [2] And the quality of your


I prefer Java and Python alike, I simply love those two languages.....

So, am I smart, or not as smart?

What a stupid assertion to make; this Paul Graham has just proven 
himself to be an ass.........

QXX



From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Tue Aug 17 12:22:33 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 12:22:33 -0400
Subject: News server(NNTP library) and Python
In-Reply-To: <Xns95485C206CFEduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
References: <81a41dd.0408162307.3eb1ea36@posting.google.com>
	<Xns95485C206CFEduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408171219390.2615-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>

On 17 Aug 2004, Duncan Booth wrote:

> If you meant that you actually want a free news server to post to real 
> newsgroups, then sign up with news.individual.net. You have to agree to 
> some reasonable terms and conditions, but it is free.

Also check to see if your ISP provides one; for example, my ISP, Charter, 
provides a news server at news.charter.net (though it is not available to 
non-subscribers, of course).



From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Thu Aug  5 15:09:48 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 15:09:48 -0400
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <eppstein-DB7D72.11451505082004@news.service.uci.edu>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<opsb9g3hjudgjose@mail.yahoo.it>
	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051213180.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1203.1091724074.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051258000.10473-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<eppstein-15F2C0.10352205082004@news.service.uci.edu>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051353150.11711-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<eppstein-DB7D72.11451505082004@news.service.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051504001.13305-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, David Eppstein wrote:

> Let me get this straight: you're envisioning a situation in which you 
> want to decorate a function, the decorator might fail, and if it does 
> you want to do something else (perhaps including not decorating it at 
> all), but with the same function body?

Correct.

> If so, that's easy:
> 
> def my_robust_decorator(func):
>     try:
>         return decorator_that_might_fail(func)
>     except:
>         return something_else
> 
> @my_robust_decorator
> def func(args...):
>    ....

Well, you've found a good solution.  I stand corrected.



From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Tue Aug 17 10:16:09 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:16:09 -0400
Subject: Newbie question about file input
In-Reply-To: <cft2f9$ii0$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
References: <cfqj3s$cti$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <cft2f9$ii0$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408171010590.548-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Aaron Deskins wrote:

>     Also, what exactly is stored when a blank line is read by the
> readline command? A zero, blank, or what???

readline() always includes the '\n' that terminates the line, so any 
'blank' line that is read will be returned as a simply '\n'.  The only 
time readline() won't return a line terminated with '\n' is if the last 
line of the file isn't terminated with '\n' (common on Windows), in which 
context a blank line is meaningless.



From ksenia at ksenia.nl  Fri Aug 20 03:03:30 2004
From: ksenia at ksenia.nl (Ksenia Marasanova)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:03:30 +0300
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <AugVc.4535$Jn5.4362@fe1.texas.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1989.1092960560.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<AugVc.4535$Jn5.4362@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <0AAE767D-F277-11D8-968C-000A957911BC@ksenia.nl>

J2 J2 A1


Ksenia



From cjw at sympatico.ca  Wed Aug 25 21:43:53 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 21:43:53 -0400
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <kfbXc.23327$DG.1148674@news20.bellglobal.com>

For J2, this is better than 2.4.2a version, but there are more Pythonic 
ways.

Colin W.



From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Mon Aug 30 23:23:21 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:23:21 +1000
Subject: python and visual c++ 3.0
Message-ID: <1093922601.4133ef29882f5@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

Has anyone written applications which have Python interacting with embedded
visual c++ 3.0?
i am writing an application for pocket pc2002 and there are a few functions
i need which are not provided by the python release for pocket pc. so i am
thinking of writing a few modules in embedded visual c++ 3.0 and wrapping
Python code around it. is that possible? has anyone done it before? i
would love to hear any ideas and suggestions

thanks

cheers





----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From graeme.matthew at contrado.com.au  Tue Aug 31 01:16:45 2004
From: graeme.matthew at contrado.com.au (Graeme Matthew)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 15:16:45 +1000
Subject: xmlrpclib
Message-ID: <413409c3$0$22823$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>

G'day everyone

Just wanted to know if anyone knows if xmlrpclib is scalable i.e can handle
many / asynchronous calls.

Any help or advice is appreciated

Cheers


Graeme




From gandalf at geochemsource.com  Wed Aug  4 03:27:50 2004
From: gandalf at geochemsource.com (Gandalf)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 09:27:50 +0200
Subject: converting to string
In-Reply-To: <41108A2E.7030507@mail.usyd.edu.au>
References: <41108A2E.7030507@mail.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <41108FF6.1060300@geochemsource.com>



Ajay Brar wrote:

> hi!
>
> how do i go about converting a Python object or tuple to a string.
> i am currently doing
> import cPickle as pickle
> str = pickle.dumps(obj)
>
> is that efficient? is that the best way to do it? 

Yes. You did not tell what the items in the tuple can be so I guess this 
is the most efficient.
For special cases you can find a more efficient solution.For example, 
for tuples of integers,
you can write a C extension that allocates a big string and copies every 
int object into 4 bytes
in the string. That would be more efficient.

Regards,

   Laci 2.0




From tor.iver.wilhelmsen at broadpark.no  Thu Aug  5 16:23:23 2004
From: tor.iver.wilhelmsen at broadpark.no (Tor Iver Wilhelmsen)
Date: 05 Aug 2004 22:23:23 +0200
Subject: Confused about pep 318
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051249050.10473-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1210.1091725930.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<e86dnZBJM6_n84_cRVn-jA@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1218.1091727649.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HrmdnaFrl6nN4I_cRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <ullgtxrk4.fsf@broadpark.no>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> writes:

> And Java chose it based on what precedent?

It's own: It follows from their existing use in JavaDoc tags. Already,
some preprocessors (like one for DBC) used "custom" tags using this
syntax, though still inside JavaDoc comment blocks. Other extensions,
like Microsoft's J/Direct used for their deviating Java VM, also used
the syntax.

The new Java2SE 5.0 / JRE 1.5.0 annotations syntax puts them around
where their C# equivalent metadata mechanism is.

E.g. J2SE 5.0:

@ImplementsRequirement("B2")
public void adjustPrices(ArrayList<Price> prices) {
   //...
}

C# 2.0 (for the generics):

[ImplementsRequirement("B2")]
public void AdjustPrices(ArrayList<Price> prices) {
   // ...
}




From jepler at unpythonic.net  Wed Aug  4 20:07:27 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 19:07:27 -0500
Subject: Perl's Crypt::PasswdMD5
In-Reply-To: <41110D6D.4000901@divmod.com>
References: <ceqoul$ept$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu> <41110D6D.4000901@divmod.com>
Message-ID: <20040805000726.GC30066@unpythonic.net>

On Wed, Aug 04, 2004 at 12:23:09PM -0400, Jp Calderone wrote:
> >>> import crypt
> >>> crypt.crypt('foo bar', '$1$salt')
> '$1$salt$LAwA5cAKtcsGTJGx.bMTC1'

Support for MD5 passwords is a GNU extension (according to my manpage
for crypt(3).  Python directly calls the platform's crypt(), so if your
system's crypt is extended, Python will benefit from it.

Whether this helps the OP, I dunno.

I glanced at the Perl module he mentioned.  It looks pretty dull.  You
could implement it in Python using the md5 module pretty quickly,
assuming you had some test vectors to test against.

Jeff
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From BruceWhoHKL at gawab.com  Fri Aug 20 05:03:51 2004
From: BruceWhoHKL at gawab.com (BruceKL WhoH)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:03:51 +0800
Subject: How to sort this kind of list easily?
Message-ID: <20040820092940.9FAF61E4003@bag.python.org>

Hi,all
     I have a list like [(id,string),...],for example:

     [(1,'xxxxx'),(7,'ppppp'),(4,'gggggg'),...]

	 I want to sort this list according to the id of each element. After sorting,the list will become:

     [(1,'xxxxx'),(4,'gggggg'),(7,'ppppp')...]

     Is there any library for such things, Just like STL for C++? I just want to find a convenient way to do things like this.
		

????????BruceKL WhoH
????????BruceWhoHKL at gawab.com
??????????2004-08-20

From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 18:33:15 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:33:15 -0500
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2058.1093016284.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl>	<ZFoVc.360$MR2.1503@news1.mts.net>
	<mailman.2058.1093016284.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <5_uVc.411$MR2.2033@news1.mts.net>

Tim Hochberg wrote:
> Reid Nichol wrote:
> 
>> Gerrit Muller wrote:
>>
>>> Roel Schroeven wrote:
>>>
>>>> Roel Schroeven wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I spotted some errors in your list, added new entries, and made a 
>>>>> histogram: http://roelschroeven.net/pythonages/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Very cool. It might be good idea to add a date and time at the top, 
>>> since new datapoint keep coming in?
>>
>>
>> How about labels for the axes as well.
>>
>>
>>> and then a quantum leap towards Python.
>>
>>
>> You're aware that a quantum leap means a extremely small leap, right?
> 
> 
> While quanta are typically very-very-very small, last I checked the key 
> feature of quantum transitions is not that they're small, but that there 
> are no intermediate steps. The object is in state A then it's in state 
> B, but it's never halfway (or anywhere) between. Like most quantum stuff 
> it's better not to think about that too closely.
> 
> -tim
> 

Check the definition of the word.


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 17:01:48 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 23:01:48 +0200
Subject: How to generically transform a list?
References: <mailman.2429.1093531645.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1gj5dj8.h2rve86s8rihN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Marco Aschwanden <PPNTWIMBXFFC at spammotel.com> wrote:

> Suppose you have a list of lists:
> 
> theList = [['a',1,11,'aa'], ['b',2,22,'bb'],['c',3,33,'cc']]
> 
> I would like to have a GENERIC way how to turn this list of list into
> another list of list.
> - A user can choose which columns she wants
> - A user can select the order of the columns
> 
> For example:
> The user wants columns: 1,2
> The user wants it to be ordered: 2,1

def GENERIC(list_of_lists, user_wants):
    return [ [row[x] for x in user_wants] for row in list_of_lists ]

example use:

print GENERIC(theList, (2, 1))

emits

[[11, 1], [22, 2], [33, 3]]


> I am sure there must be a rather elegant generic approach, which is 
> lurking somewhere to be realeased.

Funny enough, just this afternoon I was editing a "reordering lists of
lists" recipe for the cookbook's 2nd edition (at the mall, on my iBook,
sitting at a cafe, drinking Schweppes Orange and smoking, while my wife
and co-editor Anna did the grocery shopping -- later she was at the cafe
while I went shopping at the pharmacy, evening things out;-),
and exactly this one came up -- the original author suggested a
hardcoded approach and I widened it up to just this GENERIC function
(with a better name, to be sure, but you insisted;-).  Which is why I
still have it topmost in my mind right now (judging from your post's
timestamp you posted just as I was working on this very recipe, funny
coincidence).

It's one candidate for the 'shortcuts' chapter and there's more stuff
slated for that chapter that we can possibly choose for publication, but
it's interesting info for me that this specific task IS interesting to
somebody -- thanks!-)


Alex


From PeterAbel at gmx.net  Thu Aug 12 07:27:18 2004
From: PeterAbel at gmx.net (Peter Abel)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 04:27:18 -0700
Subject: Integers have docstring for int()
References: <59e9fd3a04081105087366db98@mail.gmail.com>	<16666.13564.527138.202013@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<mailman.1515.1092243911.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <21064255.0408120327.4092144c@posting.google.com>

Christian Tismer <tismer at stackless.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1515.1092243911.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> Skip Montanaro wrote:
> 
> >     Andrew> I accidentally discovered that all the basic types in Python
> >     Andrew> have docstrings that describe the functions to create them. For
> >     Andrew> integers, you get:
> >     ...
> > 
> >     Andrew> This seems a little unexpected to me; is there any particular
> >     Andrew> reason for this behaviour?
> > 
> > Why should this be unexpected?  If you execute
> > 
> >     print int.__doc__
> > 
> > you get its docstring.  Since the __doc__ attribute is attached to the class
> > it will be found when the search starts at an instance of the class as well.
> 
> Sure, this is why. But I can understand the feeling a little
> bit, because the docstring describes what a __call__ to the
> type object does, although the instance is not even callable.
> 
> This may origin in the fact, that int and str have been just
> functions a short while back, and the docstrings mainly describe
> that function call. The docs are less representative
> for int being the whole class. One would perhaps expect
> a short description of what an int can do.
> On the other hand, int() perceived as a function still needs
> its documentation as it is now.
> 
> Like we have the __call__ attribute of a type, which describes
> the call of the *instance*, and this differs completely from
> how the type is called, would it make sense to change the
> __doc__ lookup of types vs. instances in some way?
> 
> The current doc strings would probably better fit into int.__new__
> or int.__init__, while the class __doc__ might talk about instances.
> (although I even think no documentation would be better than
>   the existing docs in the case of strings and ints, which
>   show up in some object browsers, and you really don't want to
>   read long musings about strings while inspecting a string value
>   in the PythonWin debugger).
> 
> ciao - chris

The following seems to be unaccustomed, but it's good Python:

>>> class myInt(int):
... 	"""Instance of myInt"""
... 	def __init__(self,val):
... 		self=int(val)
... 
>>> i=myInt(10)
>>> type(i)
<class '__main__.myInt'>
>>> i.__doc__
'Instance of myInt'
>>> print myInt.__doc__
Instance of myInt
>>> j=2
>>> print j.__doc__
int(x[, base]) -> integer

Convert a string or number to an integer, if possible.  A floating point
argument will be truncated towards zero (this does not include a string
representation of a floating point number!)  When converting a string, use
the optional base.  It is an error to supply a base when converting a
non-string.
>>> type(j)
<type 'int'>
>>> j+i
12
>>>

At my knowledge, since Python 2.1?? or 2.2?? basic types are like or are classes
where you can inherit from. So their behavior is class-like.

Regards
Peter


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Wed Aug  4 14:07:24 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 14:07:24 -0400
Subject: tweaking @decorator syntax
In-Reply-To: <b03e80d.0408040809.66c50ecf@posting.google.com>
References: <b03e80d.0408040809.66c50ecf@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408041328420.13532-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu>

(warning, long rant follows)

On 4 Aug 2004, Sandy Norton wrote:

> Perhaps, you can eliminate the '@' alltogether:

I was thinking the same thing, only using a keyword in place of '@' rather 
than dropping it entirely:

 decorate classmethod, somethingelse:
     def somefunc(self):
         pass

I haven't seen this, or any of your proposals previously mentioned 
anywhere (which doesn't mean they haven't been considered and rejected, 
since the @ syntax was kept a good secret until it made it into 2.4a2).

Another proposal was to use a 'using' keyword like this:

 using:
     classmethod
     somethingelse
 def somefunc(self):
     pass

But this was shot down because (from PEP 318):

  The function definition is not nested within the using: block making it
  impossible to tell which objects following the block will be decorated.

Okay then.  Your & my syntaxes fix this problem nicely.

  Nesting the function definition within the using: block suggests
  nesting of namespaces that doesn't exist. The name foo would actually
  exist at the same scope as the using: block.

This arguments seems to apply to our syntaxes, but... it turns out it's
not an argument at all!  'if' doesn't nest namespaces.  Neither does
'for', 'try', 'while', etc.  Only function and class definitions nest
namespaces; I wouldn't expect anything else to.

  Finally, it would require the introduction of a new keyword.

This would apply to my idea, but frankly, I don't see how introducing a 
new keyword in order to introduce a MAJOR language feature is any 
different that introducing the butt-ugly '@' syntax, save that it may 
cause conflicts with older code, in which case we should save decorators 
for 3.0 (which IMAO should be the case anyways).

I'd like to continue this thread by suggesting another idea, side-stepping 
a backwards-incompatible syntax change:

 def somefunc(self):
     [classmethod, somethingelse]
     pass

This has the following advantages:

1) No new syntax or keywords.
2) No nesting issues.
3) Follows a previous precedent (docstrings).
4) Implementable in pure Python for great backwards-compatibility
   (http://users.wpi.edu/~squirrel/temp/decorate.py for a proof-of-concept)
5) Near the top of the function, so it is quite visible, but below the 
   function name, so it doesn't take attention away from what's important.

And the following disadvantages:

1) No new keyword/syntax means looking at it and saying "what's that?"
2) Will run without immediate error in older Pythons, possibly causing
   hard-to-track-down bugs.
3) Guido won't like it.

Of course, I prefer the nested block idea better (either with a new
keyword or new syntax), but I don't see those (especially the syntax one) 
flying anytime soon.

Unless someone can come up with an idea everyone can agree on Real Soon 
Now, I think the whole idea should be dropped and wait until 3.0.  We'll 
have plenty of time to argue about it then.

Sorry about the long rant, but it felt good to get that all off my chest.



From kylotan at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 29 10:37:37 2004
From: kylotan at hotmail.com (Kylotan)
Date: 29 Aug 2004 07:37:37 -0700
Subject: [PIL] about the difference between pudata and putpixel
References: <pan.2004.08.29.10.54.40.204024@nospam.com>
Message-ID: <153fa67.0408290637.54a7cbc7@posting.google.com>

Hillairet Julien <jh at nospam.com> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.08.29.10.54.40.204024 at nospam.com>...

> Although, this code doesn't work:
> 
> im.putdata(color)
> 
> There is no error message, but the image's pixels stay black (0) ! (The
> color matrix is not an 0-matrix !)
> 
> Is someone can explain me my misunderstanding of putdata ?

I think the misunderstanding is of numarray. I'm guessing that
iterating through a 2D array returns individual rows rather than
individual elements.

I've never used numarray before but from looking at the documentation,
you could try this:

im.putdata(color.ravel())

or 

im.putdata(ravel(color))


-- 
Ben Sizer


From gbig005 at auckland.ac.nz  Thu Aug 19 14:39:16 2004
From: gbig005 at auckland.ac.nz (Geoff Biggs)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 06:39:16 +1200
Subject: Problems with adding a new built-in data type
Message-ID: <xt6Vc.4153$zS6.460372@news02.tsnz.net>

Evening all,

I'm trying to add a new built-in number data type to Python with its own 
syntax, so I'm working directly with the interpreter rather than 
creating my own extension module (side note: I've appended something 
extra to the version thing in the Makefile - I doubt this is relevant to 
the problem but it's probably best you have all the info). The complex 
data type is similar to what I'm trying to do so I've been following 
that as an example. I've successfully extended the tokenizer and the 
parsenumber() function in compile.c to do what I want and written the 
data type in my two new files Objects/mynewobject.c and 
Include/mynewobject.h. I've included mynewobject.h in Python.h and added 
the two files to the Makefile.

However, when I tried to run the code by typing in the syntax to produce 
my data type, Python suffers a segmentation fault. I traced this to an 
attempt to get the hash of a null pointer when adding the new instance 
of my type after parsenumber() was called. For completeness, here's the 
backtrace:

Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
0x08080e9a in PyObject_Hash (v=0x81486c0) at Objects/object.c:1162
1162            if (tp->tp_hash != NULL)
(gdb) bt
#0  0x08080e9a in PyObject_Hash (v=0x81486c0) at Objects/object.c:1162
#1  0x0808e199 in tuplehash (v=0x40324574) at Objects/tupleobject.c:244
#2  0x08080eae in PyObject_Hash (v=0x40324574) at Objects/object.c:1163
#3  0x0807b46c in PyDict_GetItem (op=0x40319c14, key=0x40324574) at 
Objects/dictobject.c:492
#4  0x080c72c7 in com_add (c=0xbfffed60, list=0x40326114, 
dict=0x40319c14, v=0x40326290) at Python/compile.c:975
#5  0x080c74ac in com_addconst (c=0xbfffed60, v=0x40326290) at 
Python/compile.c:1001
#6  0x080c90e3 in com_atom (c=0xbfffed60, n=0x4028d500) at 
Python/compile.c:1689

The crash appears to be caused because while v exists, v's members are 
all 0 and so tp becomes 0 when it is made equal to v->ob_type and you 
get a NULL pointer exception. As far as I can tell, this v is the second 
object in the tuple created in com_add() and is supposed to be the type 
of the object being added to the dictionary in a tuple. Not knowing why 
it was coming out as zero, I did some more poking around (been doing a 
lot of that over the past 5 days...) and found that there is a file 
called bltinmodule.c with a bunch of lines, one of which mentions the 
complex data type that I am using as a guide:

SETBUILTIN("complex", &PyComplex_Type);

So I made one of these for mynewobject and added it. I figured from this 
bit of code that the reason I was getting NULL pointer exceptions was 
because my type hadn't been initialised in some way and that this would 
do it. But here's the problem: despite trying for longer than I've slept 
in the past week, I can't get it to work. With that line in the Python 
interpreter segfaults as soon as it starts (while trying to import the 
os module) and so it can't even finish compiling the extension modules. 
If I comment out the SETBUILTIN line I added it will compile fine but 
then I go back to the first problem.

I have structured my object identically to the complex object as far as 
I can tell, which works. So the question is, what's broken? What have I 
missed when adding a new builtin?

(This mess is all happening on Linux tillinshir 2.6.7-gentoo-r11-gb #1 
Wed Aug 4 11:13:14 NZST 2004 i686 mobile AMD Athlon(tm) XP 2000+ 
AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux, if that matters.)

Thanks in advance,
Geoff Biggs


From stefan at eischet.com  Thu Aug 12 16:53:00 2004
From: stefan at eischet.com (Stefan Eischet)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:53:00 +0200
Subject: Decorator "platform"
In-Reply-To: <2o22htF65snnU10@uni-berlin.de>
References: <2nsoofF49frcU1@uni-berlin.de> <87zn50nll4.fsf@pobox.com>
	<2o22htF65snnU10@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <98A72F3C-ECA1-11D8-899A-000A95857E5C@eischet.com>


On 12.08.2004, at 22:42, Reinhold Birkenfeld wrote:

> John J. Lee wrote:
>> Reinhold Birkenfeld <reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net> writes:
>> [...]
>>> What I have in mind is a sort of "decorator library" where everyone 
>>> who
>>> has written a useful function of that kind can share it with others,
>> [...]
>>
>> God help us. <0.5 wink>
>
> God IS helping us, or we wouldn't use Python.

If there's a god, is there also a MDFH (malevolent dictator from hell) 
trying to "enhance" Python? ;-)

// stefan at eischet.com //



From sridharinfinity at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 07:50:20 2004
From: sridharinfinity at gmail.com (Sridhar  R)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 04:50:20 -0700
Subject: 100 % portable ?
In-Reply-To: <rp_Vc.221989$xO.10939509@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
Message-ID: <cga19s$27b@odah37.prod.google.com>

Use the standard python library (not OS specific ones) functions.  For
GUI, better use Tk.   That should make your program portable across the
platforms where python runs.

Tk looks ugly in linux. Gtk is also good, but rendering is sluggish in
windows.



From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 02:09:36 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 23:09:36 -0700
Subject: *expression and iterables
Message-ID: <d11dcfba.0408192209.42382c2e@posting.google.com>

So I was looking at the Python 3.0 wiki
(http://www.python.org/moin/Python3_2e0) and noticed that one of the
major changes would be that builtin classes and functions would take
and return iterators instead of lists. Along these same lines, I'm
wondering if we could also add the feature that a *expression
parameter produces an iterable instead of a tuple.

Right now, using the *expression syntax with an iterable causes that
iterable to be consumed at the time of the function call, e.g.:

>>> def rangegen(n):
...     for i in range(n):
...             yield i
...     print "exhausted"
...
>>> def f(*args):
...     print "f"
...     for arg in args:
...             print arg
...
>>> f(*rangegen(3))
exhausted
f
0
1
2

It would be nice if the iterable was only consumed as necessary, e.g.:

>>> f(*rangegen(3))
f
0
1
2
exhausted

This would mean that izip(*izip(x)) would work without reading all the
elements of izip(x) into memory.

If I understand (http://docs.python.org/ref/calls.html) correctly,
parameter values are filled with the following sequence:
* use values from positional arguments
* use values from *expression argument
* use values from keyword arguments
* use values from **expression argument
So either the *expression iterable gets run to completion, fills some
parameter values, and the sequence proceeds as normal, or it runs
until all parameter values are filled, and then it's passed in as the
*args parameter.  Doesn't seem too unreasonable...

Is this implementable?  If so, it seems desirable -- is it something
that could be added to the Python 3.0 wiki?  (I'd love it now, of
course, but it's backwards incompatible =)

Steve

P.S. I didn't add it to the wiki myself because it sorta seemed like
that wiki was intended only for the goals GvR had already suggested.


From bjg at network-theory.co.uk  Wed Aug  4 05:56:48 2004
From: bjg at network-theory.co.uk (Brian Gough)
Date: 04 Aug 2004 10:56:48 +0100
Subject: Modern dead-tree Python resources
References: <mailman.1101.1091568194.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87ekmnrztr.fsf@network-theory.co.uk>

Michael Ekstrand <python at elehack.net> writes:

> Is there a good book that covers Python at least through 2.2
> ..... if someone's publishing print versions of the Python
> documentation, that would possibly be of interest....

Hello, 
I publish printed editions of the Python Documentation (and other free
software manuals too).  The versions are all fairly recent (2.2 & 2.3).
See the following urls for details.

  http://www.network-theory.co.uk/python/manual/    (Tutorial v2.2.2)
  http://www.network-theory.co.uk/python/language/  (Language Reference v2.3)

The discounted price on Amazon is about $14 for each book.
Incidentally, $1 of the price is donated to the Python Software
Foundation for each copy sold.

-- 
Brian Gough

Network Theory Ltd,
Publishing the Python Manuals --- http://www.network-theory.co.uk/


From roy at panix.com  Sat Aug  7 09:38:13 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 09:38:13 -0400
Subject: How to force a single number to be a tuple
References: <mailman.1138.1091636758.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-6EC9F2.12271204082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1142.1091637381.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1a517b5.0408061329.429de7fc@posting.google.com>
	<roy-0B13C1.18151306082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<uiq8h09864jrmf8oj2dt7c9hbr278u98qc@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <roy-73E10E.09381307082004@reader1.panix.com>

In article <uiq8h09864jrmf8oj2dt7c9hbr278u98qc at 4ax.com>,
 Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 18:15:13 -0400, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> declaimed
> the following in comp.lang.python:
> 
> > For those of us who went to school a while ago, and perhaps didn't pay 
> > as much attention in math class as we should have, could you translate 
> > "an element of the Cartesian product of zero or more domains" into 
> > English?
> >
> 	It's more the terminology of relation database theory. Might
> have derived from some esoteric set theory in match, but for the most
> part relational database theory terms map to "common" terms as:
> 
> relation			table
> tuple			row (record)
> domain			column
> 
> 	An unrestricted Cartesian product basically pairs up each entry
> of "domain A" with each entry of "domain B"

Ah.  The cross-product.  It's amazing how so many fields of study use 
the same concepts but invent new names for things to obfuscate 
everything :-)


From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug 16 00:08:30 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 04:08:30 GMT
Subject: Python secure?
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<ZKRTc.3710$bJ2.23892@news1.mts.net>
	<6o75v1-p92.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<412009f1$0$8090$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<41200f06$0$65568$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<abadnVcaqasCiL3cRVn-ig@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <4120333e$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-16, Istvan Albert <ialbert at mailblocks.com> wrote:

>> I've read up a bit, and I looks like I was wrong.  The mere
>> act of creating a derived work is an infringement of
>> copyright. The derived work doesn't have to be distributed for
>> an infringment to have taken place.  Title 17 says
>
>>    (2) to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;
>
> Is a decompiled source code a 'derivate' work?
>
> I always felt that meaning of 'derivative' is creating a piece
> a work that is either very similar to or incorporates large
> sections of an other piece of work.
>
> The mere fact of using a binary file as the input to a program
> does not mean that the output of this program is a 'derivative
> work' of the binary file.

Cite?

Under US law, a work translated into a different language is a
derived work.  That sounds like de-compiling to me. I don't see
anywhere where it says the translation can't be done by a
computer program.  

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.html#examples

If I take an 80x86 binary program I use under license from the
copyright holder and translate it into SPARC instructions
without the copyright holder's permission, can I copyright the
result as my own work?  Your argument seems to be that I can.

> I think the answer lies not in the copyright law but in the
> license that was set by the program owner. If they forbid
> decompilation that's their right to do so.

Perhaps that's true (in some jurisdictions), but we were
discussing copyright law.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  -- I have seen the
                                  at               FUN --
                               visi.com            


From mudd at vex.net  Sun Aug  8 22:18:45 2004
From: mudd at vex.net (mudd at vex.net)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 22:18:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: decorators vs GIL
In-Reply-To: <96c2e938.0408081605.706f8ec7@posting.google.com>
References: <96c2e938.0408081605.706f8ec7@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <45337.24.233.156.35.1092017925.squirrel@webmail.vex.net>

> That's not to say there aren't limited problem domains where threads
> are the right answer, but as a general construct they're wildly
> overused.  I'm frankly glad that Python doesn't encourage more of the
> same.
>

Is there anything else that Python doesn't do well that we should appreciate?


From jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu  Mon Aug 30 10:36:36 2004
From: jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu (John Hunter)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:36:36 -0500
Subject: why does this fail on python 2.2?
In-Reply-To: <faKdnbHxJfK-2a7cRVn-gQ@comcast.com> ("Larry Bates"'s message
	of "Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:13:44 -0500")
References: <mailman.2611.1093878644.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<faKdnbHxJfK-2a7cRVn-gQ@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <m2llfwu1zf.fsf@mother.paradise.lost>

>>>>> "Larry" == Larry Bates <lbates at swamisoft.com> writes:

    Larry> Because __slots__ and __new__ were added in 2.3.  Larry

I don't think so

http://python.org/2.2.3/descrintro.html


From newgene at bigfoot.com  Tue Aug  3 08:29:35 2004
From: newgene at bigfoot.com (Newgene)
Date: 3 Aug 2004 05:29:35 -0700
Subject: How to clear previous console output?
Message-ID: <ceo0ff$cbc@odah37.prod.google.com>

Thank you for all your advice.
I have it work now.

Cl



From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Wed Aug  4 04:14:14 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 04 Aug 2004 10:14:14 +0200
Subject: automatic delegation
References: <HBF.20040803b8y6@bombur.uio.no> <ceo0u1$kp0$1@arcturus.ciril.fr>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040804oye7@bombur.uio.no>

Yermat wrote:
>Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
>> Is it possible to write a metaclass or something so that
>> with a class definition not much larger than this:
>> 
>>    class foo:
>>       def __init__(self, val): self.val = val
>> 
>> operations on a foo instance f will be applied to f.val?
>> E.g. str(f) -> f.__str__() -> f.val.__str__().
> 
> Here a simple example :
> 
> class proxy(object):
>      def __init__(self, obj):
>          self.obj = obj
> 
>      def __getattr__(self, key):
>          if key in self.__dict__:
>              return self.__dict__[key]
>          else:
>              return getattr(self.obj, key)

I tried __getattr__ before I posted, but it doesn't work:

    >>> int(proxy(5))
    Traceback (most recent call last):
      File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
    TypeError: int() argument must be a string or a number

However, the example in the Cookbook works.  Thanks, Ville.
Turns out the above example also works if one one removes 'object'
and makes it and old-style class:

    >>> int(proxy(5))
    5
    >>> str(proxy(5))
    '5'

Seems that with new-style classes, __getattr__ only works for instance
variables, while for old-style classes, it also works for class
variables like __int__ and __str__.  But I can't see anything in the
documentation which says so?

> You can also look at:
> http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/ProxyProgramming

That example doesn't work at all.  The initialization of self._subject
in __init__() breaks because of the definition of __setattr__.

-- 
Hallvard


From alf at merlin.fayauffre.org  Thu Aug 26 04:32:09 2004
From: alf at merlin.fayauffre.org (Alexandre Fayolle)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:32:09 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Converting hex string to an integer
References: <412d9e18$0$22821$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <cgk769$bf5$1@biggoron.nerim.net>

Le 26-08-2004, Derek Fountain <nospam at example.com> a ?crit?:
> Given the character string "0x00A1B2C3" arriving at sys.argv[1] how do I 
> convert that to an integer which I can do some math on?

>>> s = "0x00A1B2C3"
>>> int(s, 16)
10597059
  

-- 
Alexandre Fayolle                              LOGILAB, Paris (France).
http://www.logilab.com   http://www.logilab.fr  http://www.logilab.org


From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Wed Aug 25 11:51:32 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:51:32 +0200
Subject: Desperately needing Help with 2 features of a program
References: <f9d01b73.0408250730.ed28f89@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgichq$a8d$05$1@news.t-online.com>

Hi,


Asking people to download your program and simply add features is a little
bit too much I fear....

Read this:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

And then post why and where your concrete attempts fail. Thats much more
likely to get answers.

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From bmbeck at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 02:57:28 2004
From: bmbeck at gmail.com (Brandon)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 23:57:28 -0700
Subject: serial iteration over several lists
References: <tgOVc.176766$gE.1703@pd7tw3no>
Message-ID: <1b5c4527.0408212257.5c9c18b4@posting.google.com>

How about this:

>>> import itertools
>>> def mesh_flatten(meshes):
...     return itertools.chain(*meshes)
... 
>>> meshes = [
...     ["face1", "face2", "face3"],
...     ["face4", "face5", "face6"],
...     ["face7", "face8", "face9"],
...     ["face10", "face11", "face12", "face13"],
... ]
>>> 
>>> list(mesh_flatten(meshes))
['face1', 'face2', 'face3', 'face4', 'face5', 'face6', 'face7',
'face8', 'face9', 'face10', 'face11', 'face12', 'face13']


Martin DeMello <martindemello at yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<tgOVc.176766$gE.1703 at pd7tw3no>...
> Within Blender, I have access to a list of Objects, each Object
> containing a list of Meshes and each Mesh a list of Faces. I'd like to
> implement a face iterator, with both a next() and a prev() method, such
> that if I go off the end of a face list, it goes to the first face in
> the next mesh, similarly for going off the end of the last mesh in an
> object, and similarly for the prev() iterator.
> 
> In other words, I want to simulate appending all the faces into one long
> list, but without the overhead of actually creating the list. I can
> think of several ways to do it, but they all feel like solutions
> 'translated' from some other language - is there a nice pythonic way to
> do this?
> 
> martin


From mwh at python.net  Sat Aug  7 17:01:17 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 21:01:17 GMT
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu> <cf3b56$gt6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>
	<cf3cvt$d3i$1@namru.matavnet.hu> <iq6dnbRwnbwU3IjcRVn-vQ@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <m3oelmpsrm.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Istvan Albert <ialbert at mailblocks.com> writes:

> Mikl?s wrote:
> 
> 
> > Yes, this was exactly my point. Performance and GIL. Those are problems.
> > And problems must be solved.  After that add features... if they are really
> > needed.
> 
> nah,
> 
> first we need to attend to pressing needs, such as replacing
> 
> my_list.reverse()
> for item in my_list:
>    ...
> 
> with the incomparably more pythonic:
> 
> for item in reversed(my_list):
>    ...
> 
> and at the same time, we need to replace the ridiculous:
> 
> my_list.sort()
> for item in my_list:
>   ...
> 
> with:
> 
> for item in my_list.sorted():
>    ...
> 
> note the consistency in 'sort' and 'reverse' and the lack of
> that in the usage of sorted and reversed.

Which you've made up: sorted is a builtin in 2.4.

By all means carp about the new features, but -- particularly if
you're going to be sarcastic about it -- please get it right.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
7. It is easier to write an incorrect program than understand a
   correct one.
  -- Alan Perlis, http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/perlis-alan/quotes.html


From P at draigBrady.com  Tue Aug  3 09:48:00 2004
From: P at draigBrady.com (P at draigBrady.com)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 14:48:00 +0100
Subject: Python and Glade-2
In-Reply-To: <slrncg9a33.9jr.davecook@localhost.localdomain>
References: <ce1agf$qeu$1@aphrodite.grec.isp.9tel.net>
	<slrncg8c1g.10u.davecook@david-cooks-computer.local>
	<ce1c6p$r0c$1@aphrodite.grec.isp.9tel.net>
	<slrncg8kol.520.davecook@localhost.localdomain>
	<slrncg9a33.9jr.davecook@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <lIMPc.24284$Z14.7341@news.indigo.ie>

Dave Cook wrote:
> In article <slrncg8kol.520.davecook at localhost.localdomain>, Dave Cook wrote:
> 
> 
>>Here's a more up to date list of tutorials:
> 
> 
> Woops...
> 
> http://www.pygtk.org/articles.html
> 
> Dave Cook

I've a tutorial with a couple of example apps here:
http://www.pixelbeat.org/talks/pygtk

-- 
P?draig Brady - http://www.pixelbeat.org
--


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Wed Aug  4 08:20:38 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Wed,  4 Aug 2004 22:20:38 +1000
Subject: tkinter button command
Message-ID: <1091622038.4110d496aeb96@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

if i set two buttons to call the same function when they are pressed, is
there any way, within the function of knowing which button invoked it.

cheers

--
Ajay Brar,
CS Honours 2004
Smart Internet Technology Research Group





----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Mon Aug 23 15:46:47 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:46:47 -0400
Subject: Standard graph API?
In-Reply-To: <slrncik8tm.4g.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
References: <slrncik8tm.4g.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
Message-ID: <hIidnY0sZ9s71LfcRVn-og@giganews.com>

Magnus Lie Hetland wrote:

> So, any interest? Or am I just a lone nut in wanting this?

I have often needed to use simple graph concepts and wrote a bunch
of code, then at some point I have started to unify it and (slowly)
put together a consistent model. When my research brings me back to
graphs I'll try to finish it.

http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/i/u/iua1/python/graphlib/html/

I do have a lot functionality working, you can associate arbitrary
data with the nodes and edges, bfs, dfs, topological sort,graph
generation, David Epstein's python dijkstra algorithm, graphviz
visualization.

Istvan.


From martin at v.loewis.de  Sun Aug 22 04:39:23 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 10:39:23 +0200
Subject: zipfile module: problems with filename having non ascii
	characters
In-Reply-To: <41284ac0$0$3551$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be>
References: <4127a6d7$0$4090$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be>
	<mailman.2122.1093122795.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<41284ac0$0$3551$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be>
Message-ID: <41285BBB.1050800@v.loewis.de>

vincent_delft at yahoo.com wrote:
> That limitation is only valid for zip files ?

It appears that WinZip and other tools interpret the file names in a
zipfile in CP437. So to properly put non-ASCII file names into a
zipfile, you need to convert them into CP437. If the file name
contains a character which is not available in CP437, you cannot
save the file in a zipfile (without renaming it).

Not really a Unicode problem, but rather a problem that Unicode
tries to solve.

> Is there an another "compression tool" that don't have such limitation
> (tgz? , bz2? , ????

tar, traditionally, is also unaware of character sets. Single Unix 3
(and I believe also earlier) ended the tar wars with the introduction
of the pax utility, which does allow for specification of a character
set in a pax file; among the supported character sets are ISO-8859-n,
and UTF-8.

J?rg Schilling's star(1) also uses UTF-8 for file names.

On the non-tar side of the world, WinRAR supports Unicode in archives.
For compatibility, they also put a non-Unicode name into the archive,
but the Unicode name, if present, is meant to take precedence.

Regards,
Martin


From paul.bissex at gmail.com  Mon Aug 30 16:40:21 2004
From: paul.bissex at gmail.com (Paul Bissex)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:40:21 -0400
Subject: "Content-Length" header
In-Reply-To: <ch02m2$31u@odbk17.prod.google.com>
References: <ch02m2$31u@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <10015231040830134058f9bef6@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 Aug 2004 13:28:50 -0700, Justin <justin__devine at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Ok I have now discovered the oddest problem ever.  Check this out it
> seems that the same code that works outside of a for loop doesn't work
> in one check it out.  Even though the first entry in the list
> linklisttype is the same exact URL.
> 
> (THIS WORKS)
> 
> temp =
> urlopen("http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~harnad/Temp/Ariadne-RAE.doc")
> print temp
> temp2 = temp.info()
> print temp2
> temp3 = temp2.getheader("Content-Length")
> print temp3
> 
> (THIS DOESN't)
> for y in linklisttype:
> x = y
> temp = urlopen(x)
> print temp
> temp2 = temp.info()
> print temp2
> temp3 = temp2.getheader("Content-Length")
> print temp3

I am assuming that your mail client or something else between you and
us has borked the indentation.

If so, I think your problem lies outside the code you posted. If I run
that code, properly indented and preceded by

  linklisttype = ['http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~harnad/Temp/Ariadne-RAE.doc']

then I get identical output from the two.

pb

-- 
paul bissex, e-scribe.com -- database-driven web development
413.585.8095
69.55.225.29
01061-0847
72?39'71"W 42?19'42"N


From quadric at primenet.com  Mon Aug 30 17:12:32 2004
From: quadric at primenet.com (quadric at primenet.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:12:32 -0700
Subject: Is it possible to embed PythonWin
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20040830140812.00acce58@pop.primenet.com>

Hi,

I am just getting into PythonWin.  I need my application that has Python 
embedded within it
to communicate with an Excel spreadsheet.  I have done this manually with 
PythonWin.
All works well.  How can I get my application to communicate via PythonWin 
with the Excel
spreadsheet in an automated way?

Can PythonWin be embedded?  Is it a matter of importing certain modules 
from within plain
Python and calling certain methods to initialize the COM interface..etc....??

Any help would be appreciated.




From noone at here.com  Wed Aug 25 20:00:50 2004
From: noone at here.com (M. Clift)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 01:00:50 +0100
Subject: Just a quick one
References: <cgi2qq$rvp$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<cgi3ev$g6k$1@online.de><cgi5vc$m52$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<mailman.2391.1093473637.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgj95i$pl8$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>

Hi SM and Phil ,

Thankyou both for your help.

M




From rnd at onego.ru  Thu Aug 26 07:44:21 2004
From: rnd at onego.ru (Roman Suzi)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:44:21 +0400 (MSD)
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E6F@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E6F@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408261522570.24120@suzi.com.onego.ru>

> Please read the proposal carefully before signing. In particular,
> carefully read the statement (for, against, or abstaining) to which you
> are signing your name; each is explicit and means exactly what it says.

The J2 proposal.

For addition to: http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html

My unconditional vote is:
-----------------------------
"FOR" Roman Suzi rnd at onego.ru
-----------------------------

Remarks: we hardly find better keyword for decorators and I'd also liked
to be able to delimite decorators with ";" as normal statements.



From stuffduff at cox.net  Thu Aug  5 09:48:48 2004
From: stuffduff at cox.net (Sean)
Date: 5 Aug 2004 06:48:48 -0700
Subject: ZServerSSL and Certificates
Message-ID: <3222fe00.0408050548.43b5f0fd@posting.google.com>

Hi,

I have been able to get ZServerSSL to work with the demo certs, and
with some self generated.  However I'm really not clear on
certificates in general, and we're about to try it with real certs
from a real CA.

What I'd like to find is some really clear documentation on
ZServerSSL.  What I have had to do is to try and interpret between the
general SSL certificate information sites and the ZServerSSL package.

What I did this last go-around was to snag CA.pl and visit
https://www.entrust.com/freecerts/ag_server_req.cfm

Step 3 requires a server certificate request (PKCS#10 request) 

Here's what I did:

# openssl -des3 -out privatekey 1024
# ./CA.pl -newreq

Which gave me newreq.pem, so I cut the text between the markers and
pasted it into the box, and submitted it.

Then I get two files back from the web site.

I believe that the first is the server cert, the second a ca cert.

So I take privatekey.pem and the ca cert and combine them into a
single file called ca.pem.

Then I:

# ./CA.pl -sign
# openssl rsa < newreq.pem > newkey.pem

and I combine the server cert and newkey.pem and call it server.pem.

I stop & restart the server, I get no errors from ZServerSSL.

However, when I try and access the site I get:

Microsoft IE6 first shows a request for a cert to use, I click OK to
bypass it then a warning dialog that the ca is not trusted.

Mozilla diaplays a panel warning that there are three potential
problems.

In either case if I ignore the warnings I get a secure connection.

I need to understand what I'm doing wrong here.

Please enlighten me!


From theller at python.net  Tue Aug 24 15:08:10 2004
From: theller at python.net (Thomas Heller)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 21:08:10 +0200
Subject: fun with unicode files
References: <6579x7eo.fsf@python.net> <it9sv1-tj9.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
Message-ID: <r7pwuzfp.fsf@python.net>

"Roger Binns" <rogerb at rogerbinns.com> writes:

> Thomas Heller wrote:
>> I wonder: do I really have to check for the BOM manually, or is there a
>> Python function which does that?
>
> It should be part of the standard library IMHO.
>
> Here is my own more complete implementation:
>
> http://www.bitpim.org/pyxr/c/projects/bitpim/common.py.html#0286
>
Ah, thanks.  It looks like I basically got it right, although your
solution is really more complete.

Thomas


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Aug 24 18:18:56 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:18:56 -0400
Subject: Debunking Art - fraudster with python AI engine?
References: <4128f60b$1@news.unimelb.edu.au> <412b8a01$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>
Message-ID: <cggesf$7p4$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Tom B." <sbabbitt at commspeed.net> wrote in message
news:412b8a01$1 at news.unimelb.edu.au...
> "Nick" <primz at bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:4128f60b$1 at news.unimelb.edu.au...
> > Curiously, I asked the artist if he had written the engine. He claimed
> > to have, but as far as I know, he has done no AI study, and only
> > started programming python some months ago.

> Python is all about getting the proper module and using it. Do you
believe
> those that use wxPython or Tk to be frauds.

Do people who use wxPython (a gui *engine*) claim to have written it?

It is possible the the artist misunderstood the question and only meant to
say that he had written the application on top of the engine.  But I was
not there.

Terry J. Reedy





From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Wed Aug 11 11:31:47 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:31:47 -0400
Subject: How to get rid of "hex/oct constants > sys.maxint" warning?
In-Reply-To: <411a3402$0$65564$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
References: <411a3402$0$65564$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408111121070.20086-100000@ccc1.wpi.edu>

On 11 Aug 2004, Grant Edwards wrote:

> How _do_ I get rid of the warning?  Is there a way to tell
> Python that the constant isn't an integer, it's just a bit
> pattern?

The best way is to tell Python to silence the warning:

>>> 0xc0047a80
FutureWarning
>>> import warnings
>>> warnings.simplefilter('ignore',FutureWarning)
>>> 0xc0047a80
-1073448320

fcntl() doesn't really care what it gets, so long as it can convert it to 
a 32-bit value, something it can't do with a long integer.  In 2.3, 
0xc0047a80 returns a negative integer, which is acceptable to fcntl().  In 
2.4, it's going to return a long integer -- presumably fcntl() will also 
be able to accept long integers.



From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 15 16:17:27 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:17:27 -0500
Subject: Python secure?
In-Reply-To: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <RwPTc.3679$bJ2.23749@news1.mts.net>

Calvin wrote:
> Hi to both of you,
> 
> For some reason I can't seem to reply to the post, hence my posting this as
> a new topic
> 
> Sorry I should have said I'm new to programming let alone Python. I wish to
> know whether Python is secure as an exe for a commercial product. i.e. can
> someone see your code more easily than in say using another language. We're
> not talking financial / security type software here just a basic windows
> app.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 

Distribute the compiled objects and not the source.  Use py2exe and get 
a binary to distribute.

But then again if some really wants your code they can get it.  This is 
the same with anything, once something leaves your hands you don't have 
any control over it anymore.


If you are new to programming then something should be mentioned. 
Python just like *any other language* has its strengths and weaknesses. 
  One must choose a language for a project based on the projects 
requirements and not really what they like.  So, for the project you 
have in mind C or Lisp or something else may be far more appropriate to 
code in.

That being said, Python is a great language to learn in.  Many of the 
bad habits, like poor indentation, aren't an issue in Python as if you 
poorly indent you get errors (logical or otherwise).  You can also learn 
structured and object oriented programming and design all in one neat 
little package.

At this point I'd say learn with Python (you'll be glad you did) and 
then revisit the project you have in mind later when you have a better 
idea of its actually requirements.


From http  Mon Aug 16 19:51:18 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 16:51:18 -0700
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<RGwTc.37687$js3.13758840@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<m34qn2n2du.fsf@g2ctech.com> <41214271_1@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <7xoelamykp.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

"beliavsky at aol.com" <beliavsky at 127.0.0.1:7501> writes:
> Thanks. My code did not correctly illustrate breaking out of more than one
> level of loop. How would the following code be translated to Python?
> It is silly of course, but real-world situations where you want to exit a
> nested loop are not that rare.

They're really not all that common.

> ido: do i=1,n
>    jdo: do j=1,n
>       if (i+j > n) exit ido
>       ...

Well, you could do it with try/raise, like
   try:
     for i in xrange(1,n+1):
       for j in xrange(1, n+1):
         if i+j > n: raise 'foo'
       ...
   except 'foo': 
     ...

but more normally you'd just say
   for i in xrange(1,n+1):
      for j in xrange(1, n-i+1):
          ...


From b.niemann at betternet.de  Fri Aug 13 09:27:27 2004
From: b.niemann at betternet.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:27:27 +0200
Subject: Flython?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121608180.11006-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121608180.11006-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <cfifej$2vi$1@online.de>

Christopher T King wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Peter Hansen wrote:
> 
> 
>>In the vein of Jython, I wonder what it would take to build
>>a Flython?  (Lousy name, I know.)  That would take Python
>>source, presumably a subset since some things couldn't be supported,
>>and compile it into ActionScript bytecode (aka the bytecode compiled
>>from ECMAScript source for the Macromedia Flash player environment).
> 
> 
> I don't know much about ActionScript bytecode, but I think a general
> Python -> ECMAScript translator wouldn't be too hard (presuming a Python
> subset is acceptable).  ECMAScript variables are untyped, so that should
> ease translation some.  Sounds like my weekend project!
> 
Probably more than a weekend project, but if you do it, I'd be very, 
very happy! I'm just working on a rather complex Flashproject (simulator 
for a digital camera) and I have more than enough reasons to curse Flash 
& ActionScript. The thought how wonderful it would be, if I could use 
Python for the logic just popped up in my head a few days ago...


From bingham at cenix-bioscience.com  Fri Aug 27 09:32:11 2004
From: bingham at cenix-bioscience.com (Aaron Bingham)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 15:32:11 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
In-Reply-To: <cgnbc4$7ul$1@ork.noris.net>
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgnbc4$7ul$1@ork.noris.net>
Message-ID: <412F37DB.70009@cenix-bioscience.com>

Wolfram Kraus wrote:

> Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote:
> [...]
>
>> how can Emacs tell?  if I press TAB and thus ask Emacs to re-indent
>> the line, that's what it will do.  arguably, the correct fix is to
>> disable the "clever" re-indentation code of Emacs since it's too easy
>> to fool it, but this makes coding more awkward in other cases.  it
>> also doesn't solve cut-n-paste errors.
>
> You can use C-c < or C-c > in Emacs to (de-)indent regions.

Or C-M-\ to re-indent the region "correctly" with respect to its 
context.  This works far more reliably the using TAB to re-indent single 
lines.

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Bingham
Application Developer
Cenix BioScience GmbH
--------------------------------------------------------------------



From gohaku at earthlink.net  Mon Aug  9 12:58:59 2004
From: gohaku at earthlink.net (gohaku)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 12:58:59 -0400
Subject: What are decorators?
Message-ID: <68BA7704-EA25-11D8-9BC6-000A9574CFD8@earthlink.net>

Hi everyone,
The discussion on Python Decorators and "@" has piqued my interest on 
this
"feature?" in programming languages such as Python and Java.
can anybody what is the point in using Decorators?

The examples I have seen written in Python of this "Not Yet 
Implemented" feature
are confusing to say the least and perplexes me as to its usefulness.

Thanks in advance.
-gohaku



From joh12005 at yahoo.fr  Mon Aug 30 15:05:18 2004
From: joh12005 at yahoo.fr (Joh)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 12:05:18 -0700
Subject: how to get size of email attachment
Message-ID: <63b5e209.0408301105.58b9207a@posting.google.com>

hello,

i'm looking for a way to get total size of an email (with its attached
files) using library such as poplib, or ?

can someone help me or give me an url from where to start ?

thx


From justin__devine at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 30 13:43:21 2004
From: justin__devine at hotmail.com (Justin)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 10:43:21 -0700
Subject: Size of a remote URL
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2619.1093886807.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgvovp$1r1@odak26.prod.google.com>

Ok.  I believe you are correct.  I have observed the two MODES of the
download dialog box.  HOWEVER there are still some instances in which
Internet Explorer knows the size of something that my code cannot
determine.  So now I have this conclusion:  The instances where I
cannot get the size but a browser can must exist because I am not
asking the server the right question.  Perhaps "Content-Length" is not
included in the default headers, but the server will provide this
header if it is asked too?  Maybe I need to ask for that header more
specifically?  Also do you know of a simpler method than urlopen? I am
unsure if urlopen actually reads the file all the way through once.  If
so this is a huge waste of resources for me and I will try to
incorporate this code directly into my download funciton so that as
each file is downloaded its size is passed to the dialog box.  Let me
know what you think.  Thanks

-Justin

let me past my simple code:

file_sizes = []

for y in linklisttype:
w = urlopen(y)
z = w.info()
x = z.getheader("Content-Length")
file_sizes.append(x)



From adurdin at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 08:34:02 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 22:34:02 +1000
Subject: line shift? (baby steps 2)
In-Reply-To: <6daa8765.0408230412.6db365d6@posting.google.com>
References: <6daa8765.0408230412.6db365d6@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a0408230534c68ef7d@mail.gmail.com>

On 23 Aug 2004 05:12:30 -0700, Artemisio <calidusdk at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I have done a small currency calculator. It works and I'm very glad.
> But...I'd like to have a line shift if user types a wrong choice.

A simple "print" with no arguments should display the blank line you want:

while currency_str != "EUDK" and currency_str != "DKEU" and
currency_str != "USDK" and currency_str != "DKUS"\
and currency_str != "EUUS" and currency_str!= "USEU":
   print
   currency_choice= raw_input("Sorry. At the moment we only support
DKK, Euro and Dollars." + "\n" \
   "Type DKEU if you want convert from DKK to ?," + "\n" \
       "EUDK if you want to convert from DKK to ?," + "\n" \
        "DKUS if you want to convert from DKK to $," + "\n" \
        "USDK if you want to convert from $ to DKK," + "\n"
       "EUUS if you want to convert from ? to $," + "\n"\
       "and USEU if you want to convert from $ to ?: ")
   currency_str= str(currency_choice).upper()

Or you can add an extra "\n" at the beginning of your "Sorry" string.


From del at mjclift.freeserve.co.uk  Fri Aug  6 20:25:17 2004
From: del at mjclift.freeserve.co.uk (Calvin79)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 20:25:17 -0400
Subject: random from an array
References: <cd96c8ce3f407abab2a3c29b62ce4ecd@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>
	<2sqdnezun4kImoncRVn-qg@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <c1a9052f66ce315b2dcbd64f9d791b8c@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>

Thanyou! Peter

Calvin



From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug  5 13:29:29 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 13:29:29 -0400
Subject: Confused about pep 318
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1210.1091725930.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>	<mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org>	<d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>	<mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051249050.10473-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1210.1091725930.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <e86dnZBJM6_n84_cRVn-jA@powergate.ca>

Anthony Baxter wrote:

> But, suprise, Python's
> a volunteer effort. No-one's paying me to do this, or Guido, or anyone else.
> If someone wants to offer to pay me, or someone else, to actually do all this,
> *great*.

I'll make another donation to PSF if the final decorator syntax
does not Perlishly use arbitrary punctuation as the @ syntax does.

-Peter


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Tue Aug  3 10:03:21 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 09:03:21 -0500
Subject: how do i  do this - stream file
References: <mailman.1083.1091521022.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <mYmdnUPe0oO7BpLcRVn-rw@comcast.com>

Actually this can happen automatically.  If the
user's machine doesn't have a file association for
the file extension of the file that they click on
the browser automatically displays a open/save
dialog for them when they click on the hyperlink.
If they have an association defined on their machine,
for the extension it launches the application when
they click the hyperlink.  On Windows this behavior
is configurable.  They can always right click on
hyperlink and choose save instead.

HTH,
Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.

"Ajay" <abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.1083.1091521022.5135.python-list at python.org...
> hi!
>
> How do i create and stream a file?
> On a webpage i have a link to a file. Next to it i would like link, which,
> when pressed, runs a script that calculates the signature of the file,
> pickles the signature to a file and then gives a dialog box asking the
> user whether they would like to save the file or open it.
>
> I have the script to do the signing and pickle the signature into a file,
> but how do i allow the user to download it?
>
> thanks
>
> cheers
>
> --
> Ajay Brar,
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.




From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Aug 16 13:49:20 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:49:20 -0400
Subject: Python secure?
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk><ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com><ZKRTc.3710$bJ2.23892@news1.mts.net>	<cforh6$qiv$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk><mailman.1705.1092625838.5135.python-list@python.org><2xXTc.3775$bJ2.24876@news1.mts.net>
	<NIydnd-skK0q173cRVn-ow@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <cfqs31$hu4$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Peter Hansen" <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message
news:NIydnd-skK0q173cRVn-ow at powergate.ca...
> Reid Nichol wrote:
>
> > Terry Reedy wrote:
> >
> >> ... compiled C can be terribly insecure relative to
> >> Python.  C has dangerous functions like strcpy() which, if used with
> >> external input, can make a program subject to buffer overrun exploits
> >> that
> >> can do explosive damage.
> >
> > But this doesn't make C an insecure language.  No language is either
> > secure nor insecure.  It's what the programer does with it that
matters.

Yes, and in a later sentence, I said something about smarter programmers
and code check policies.  Indeed, by the mid-1980s, I knew that giving
control of copying to the block copied, by copying until the block
contained a null byte, could be dangerous.  But somewhere around 2000,
Microsoft shipped product that did exactly that with data taken off the
Internet.

> New definition for the purposes of this discussion:
>
> "secure language": a programming language which, by virtue of
> its structure, libraries, syntax, runtime, or other features
> supports and tends to encourage the creation of software which
> doesn't have gross security holes".  Viz. "Python"
>
> "unsecure language": a programming language which, by virtue
> of its structure, primitive libraries, awkward syntax, non-
> existent runtime, or other limitations tends to encourage
> and lead to the creation of software with gross security
> holes".  Viz. "C"

Thanks, Peter, for explaining what I meant better than I could have.  In
particular, as I said, buffer overruns are easily possible in C and
impossible, as far as I know, in pure Python.  Furthermore, I believe that
this is an intentional part of the design of each language, which make
intentionally different tradeoffs between safety and speed.

> A given programmer will be more likely to create safe and
> secure software using Python than with C, thereby making
> C the less secure...

Especially if a programmer is rewarded for faster code -- which one write
by copying dangerously -- and pushing the hidden costs off onto customers.

Terry J. Reedy





From ellisjb at my-deja.com  Wed Aug 25 09:16:33 2004
From: ellisjb at my-deja.com (ellisjb at my-deja.com)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 06:16:33 -0700
Subject: kill/cancel a started thread
In-Reply-To: <2p31fvFfb10tU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <cgi3fh$qtg@odak26.prod.google.com>

You need to have your thread check for some condition that signals it
to exit.  E.g., stopnicely in the following class (subclass and provide
an action method to do something useful):

class StoppableThread(threading.Thread):
def __init__(self, **kwds):
threading.Thread.__init__(self, **kwds)
self.keepgoing = True

def stopnicely(self):
self.keepgoing = False

def run(self):
while self.keepgoing:
time.sleep(1)
self.action()
print "Thread " + self.getName() + " has stopped"

-Jonathan



From mwh at python.net  Thu Aug  5 14:35:52 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 18:35:52 GMT
Subject: Confused about pep 318
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051249050.10473-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1210.1091725930.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<e86dnZBJM6_n84_cRVn-jA@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1218.1091727649.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HrmdnaFrl6nN4I_cRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <m3657xtotz.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> writes:

> Python doesn't need to select syntax from other languages.  Python
> leads, it doesn't follow.  Until now.  :-(

Say what?

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
8. A programming language is low level when its programs require
   attention to the irrelevant.
  -- Alan Perlis, http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/perlis-alan/quotes.html


From maxwell at ldc.upenn.edu  Tue Aug 31 16:21:37 2004
From: maxwell at ldc.upenn.edu (Mike Maxwell)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 13:21:37 -0700
Subject: sys.stdin.readline()
Message-ID: <367a4461.0408311221.30866c09@posting.google.com>

When I invoke readline() in a for loop, why does it return a series of
one-char strings, rather than the full line?

>>> for sL in sys.stdin.readline(): print sL
...
abc
a
b
c

(I typed in 'abc', and the loop printed out 'a\nb\nc\n')

I.e. how can I make readline() wait for the newline before returning a
value?  'readline()' seems to be acting exactly like 'read()' here.

('readlines()' works fine in this context, except that it waits for
eof; I'd really rather iterate over lines in stdin as they come in)


From dave at pythonapocrypha.com  Wed Aug 18 09:49:15 2004
From: dave at pythonapocrypha.com (Dave Brueck)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 07:49:15 -0600
Subject: Access to Oracle
In-Reply-To: <039d01c4851e$38241b60$054b12ac@D18SYX41>
References: <039d01c4851e$38241b60$054b12ac@D18SYX41>
Message-ID: <41235E5B.4030806@pythonapocrypha.com>

Greg Lindstrom wrote:
> Greetings-
> 
> I am running Python 2.3.3 on HP-UX and would like to access an Oracle 9i
> database. Looking through the vaults, I see 4 or 5 modules that might work
> and was wondering if anyone is currently hitting Oracle and what are you
> using.  I get to build a new system from the ground up and the powers that
> be are allowing me to do it in Python.  I'm quite happy.

Hi Greg,

We recently migrated to PostgreSQL, but up until then we'd been using 
Oracle 9i. All of our Python DB access was via DCOracle2 on a Linux box 
- don't know if it works on HPUX but it worked well for us.

-Dave


From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Thu Aug 26 16:35:56 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:35:56 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10isicb60g4qoc2@corp.supernews.com>

Robert Brewer wrote:

>The J2 proposal is as complete as it will ever be.
>
>http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html
>
>  
>

I'll sign in favor of this proposal.

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From barnesc at engr.orst.edu  Thu Aug  5 20:54:56 2004
From: barnesc at engr.orst.edu (barnesc at engr.orst.edu)
Date: Thu,  5 Aug 2004 17:54:56 -0700
Subject: Proposed improved decorator syntax
Message-ID: <1091753696.4112d6e06ea9e@webmail.oregonstate.edu>


I'm revising my vote.

Thanks for the responses.

I vote against:

class foo:
    @synchronized
    @types("o,i,i")
    @author('Chris King')
    def introduceNewFeature(self, someArgument, anotherArgument):
        pass # whatever

Pros:
 - Allows arbitrary functions to be applied as decorators.

Cons:
 - Places decorator metadata before the function (in contrast with docstrings).
 - Hides function name.
 - @ symbols are ugly.
 - @ symbols are a particular hack for creating function metadata.
 - More such hacks may be needed in the future.
 - @ can be used to store metadata, but in a convoluted way:
   @name('Value') works, if function 'name' is defined (imports must be used
   for large projects); however the metadata name actually stored may be
   different than 'name' (ie no symmetry, no ease of use).
 - @ will be used for metadata, if no other solution is provided.

Recognize that we're *really* trying to create function metadata.  A more
flexible solution is to make a metadata dictionary be part of function and
class definitions.  Then 'decorator' simply becomes one name among many
different metadata names.

I vote for:

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Proposed Syntax
---------------------------------------------------------------------

class foo:
    def introduceNewFeature(self, someArgument, anotherArgument):
        .decorate = [synchronized]
        .accepts  = (int, int)
        .author   = 'Chris King'
        pass # whatever

Use introduceNewFeature.__meta__ to access the metadata dict.
The .accepts meta-datum calls isinstance() for each argument.
Use 'object' for arguments that can be any type.

Pros:
 - Readable.
 - No ugly @ symbols.
 - Metadata is placed after the function name.
 - .decorate is semantically superior to @.
 - Similar to existing Python syntax (equals sign and dots).
 - Allows metadata to be created and read (symmetrically, easily).
 - Allows arbitrary functions to be applied as decorators.
 - Code is ordered correctly (function declaration before docstring and
metadata).

Cons:
 - Name conflicts between builtin metadata names (eg 'decorate') and
   user metadata names (eg 'decorate').

Solutions to Name Conflicts:
 - Name conflicts are a small problem if the set of Python special
   metadata names is kept small and well documented (eg '.decorate'
   and '.accepts' can be documented as 'metadata keywords', to be
   avoided).
 - The paranoid can prefix metadata names with underscores.
 - Alternatively, .__decorate__ and .__accepts__ can be used.
 - Alternatively, {'decorate': [synchronized], 'accepts': (int, int)}
   can be used as the first line of metadata, which is interpreted
   as a 'Python special metadata dict'.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Either attack the full problem of metadata, or don't.

@ is a hack.  @ looks ugly.  @ is a particular solution for the general
problem domain of metadata.  @ is not clear to the uninitiated.  @ is
counter-intuitively present before the docstring.  @name('Value') is
can be used to store metadata, but lacks ease of use and symmetry.

Finally, @ does not appear to follow the tradition of Python.  It is a
very specialized extension statement, and at least deserves a descriptive
identifier in the code like 'decorate'.

Please don't stay silent on this issue.  Speak out!

We should really have a public vote.  I doubt the @ sign will be approved
if 99% of Python users oppose it.

 - Connelly


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 24 18:59:56 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:59:56 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <b8ad139e.0408241202.59bf9c58@posting.google.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>	<mailman.2084.1093045496.5135.python-list@python.org>	<4126982d$0$22032$626a14ce@news.free.fr>	<mailman.2088.1093052072.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b8ad139e.0408241202.59bf9c58@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <412BC86C.9070501@yahoo.com>

Jess Austin wrote:
> Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.2088.1093052072.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> 
>>>By what kind of black magic would setting the property __synchronized__ to
>>>True would make that function synchronized ? And how can I define my own
>>>decorators then ?
>>
>>There would be two kinds of decorators.  Those that are simply 
>>informative (like __author__ or __version__), and those that have 
>>side-effects (like __metaclass__, __synchronized__, __automethods__, 
>>etc.).  Those with side-effects would be implemented as special functions...
>>
>>     def synchronized(func, trueOrFalse):
>>         __decorator__ = True
>>         __author__ = 'Billy Batson'
>>         __version__ = '0.1'
>>         #
>>         # perform the synchronized operation on func...
>>         #
> 
> 
> How would the parser know the difference between informative function
> variables like "__author__" and your special side-affecting function
> variables?
> 

In this proposal, the "side-effecting" functions would all be decorated 
with "__decorator__ = True".  So the interpreter would tell the 
difference that way: for any given attribute __xxx__, if no function 
exists with the name xxx and which also defined __decorator__ = True, 
then xxx would be considered informational only.

Whether or not this idea has merit, it is too different than what is 
seriously being considered to have a chance of being adopted.  However 
there is a compromise that is much more consistent with the current 
decorator proposals yet doesn't require any new syntax.

The idea is that we mirror the __metaclass_ syntax, and introduce a new 
magic variable __features__ which takes as its value a tuple of 
decorators...

     def foo():
        """ This is a docstring. """
        __features__ = synchronized, returns(None)
        # function body goes here

The decorators would be located/resolved/applied as in the popular 
proposals.



From npat at efault.net  Mon Aug 16 14:26:32 2004
From: npat at efault.net (Nick Patavalis)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:26:32 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: ConfigParser options spanning more than one line
References: <mailman.1741.1092674038.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnci1v2n.h3l.npat@gray.efault.net>

On 2004-08-16, Josh Close <narshe at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm using ConfigParser and I can't seem to get a config option to span
> more than one line.
>
> [MyConfig]
> var = blah blah blah\
>         blah continued
>
> Putting the '\' doesn't work
>
> Is there a way to do that? Or do I have to deal with having a huge
> long string all on one line?

Simply do:

  [MyConfig]
  var = blah blah blah
         blah continued

without the '\'. Indentation continues the line.

/npat


From eq at eq.homelinux.org  Thu Aug 19 18:14:05 2004
From: eq at eq.homelinux.org (eq)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 00:14:05 +0200
Subject: problem using C-bindings
References: <pan.2004.08.19.20.32.09.806717@eq.homelinux.org>
	<mailman.1985.1092951949.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.19.22.14.03.407680@eq.homelinux.org>

Am Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:45:45 -0400 schrieb Jack Diederich:

> On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 10:32:15PM +0200, eq wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I'm trying to create a program(written in C) that does the following
>> things using embedded Python:
>> 1. Create a module(say, "MyModule")
>> 2. Create a class in that module(say, "MyClass")
>> 3. Create a function in that module(say, "MyFunction")
> [snip]
>> 	class_dict=PyDict_New();
>> 	class_name=PyString_FromString("MyClass");
>> 	class=PyClass_New(NULL,class_dict,class_name);
>> 	PyDict_SetItemString(module_dict,"MyClass",class);
> [snip]
> 
> Take a look at Modules/xxsubtype.c in the source distribution.
> It is an example of how to subtype a builtin.  xxmodule.c shows
> how to make a class from scratch.  Both are out of date but a good
> sarting spot.
> 
Hm, perhaps I over-complicated my problem:
I don't need a full python-class in pure C. I just need to create a
(python!) function(a dynamic one, not a static C function) and attach it
to an already existing python-class just by using C-calls.
I try to do this by compiling the function's code with:

pyfunc_code=Py_CompileString(func_code,"",Py_file_input);

where func_code could be something like "print 'hello'" and then I try to
make a function out of this by calling:

pyfunc=PyFunction_New(pyfunc_code,dict);

where dict is the global namespace for the function.
What I now want is to attach this function to the already created class
"MyClass".

> You could also give Pyrex a try, it makes it easier to write just
> a hot function or two of a class in C.  I like it to prototype C versions
> of hotspot functions (but then do the final version 'by hand').
> 
> -Jack



From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 05:45:11 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 05:45:11 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
In-Reply-To: <roy-4FE900.21540719082004@reader1.panix.com>
References: <mailman.1991.1092960665.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-4FE900.21540719082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <cg4h74$mgn$1@sea.gmane.org>

Roy Smith wrote:
> 
> I never quite understood the point of static methods inside classes.  
> When would you ever need to do that, as opposed to just a function in a 
> module?  In Java's "everything is part of a class" philosophy, it makes 
> sense, but in Python?

It gives us another means of managing namespaces.  Rather than having to 
create a top-level function in the current (or some other) module, we 
can group it with other related functions as a method in a class.



From roy at panix.com  Fri Aug  6 19:46:32 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 19:46:32 -0400
Subject: PEP-0318
References: <41122FC2.1080608@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1251.1091764482.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4114152f@nntp.zianet.com>
Message-ID: <roy-70A225.19463206082004@reader1.panix.com>

Mark Bottjer <mark_bottjer at hotmail.com> wrote:

>      E. pie decorator at top of function body syntax
> 
>      def foo(arg1,arg2):
>          @classmethod
>          ...
> 
>      def bar(low,high):
>          @accepts(int,int)
>          @returns(float)
>          ...
> [...]
>      * 0 Perhaps decorators should be allowed before or after the
>          docstring. If you have to choose, I'd choose making it before
>          the docstring.

It's a pretty arbitrary decision (i.e. I can't see any strong arguments 
one way or the other) which means it's the kind of thing which is likely 
to not be remembered.  I think I'm with you, decorators come first, then 
the docstring.  But pick one and stick with it, so everybody does it the 
same way.

>      * - Lots of decorators will make it harder to find the start of the
>          function implementation. Then again, so will a large docstring.

Do people anticipate having lots of decorators for a given function?


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Fri Aug 27 19:31:49 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:31:49 -0700
Subject: Dynamic languages
References: <278de0e.0408271349.26762174@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1093650026.763899@news.commspeed.net>


"Neuruss" <luismg at gmx.net> wrote in message
news:278de0e.0408271349.26762174 at posting.google.com...
> I've been reading an article published in E-Week entitled "Microsoft
> Lures Open-Source Programmer", which contains a definition for dynamic
> languages as follows:
>
> "Dynamic programming languages enable programs to change their
> structure as they run."
>
> I wonder if this definition is correct.
> Can we define dynamic languages this way?
>
> http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1636906,00.asp

I doubt that this is what they mean but a dynamic language is a language
that is still evolving (Python) as opposed to a dead language (COBOL).

They probably are referring to programs that can add and remove components
during runtime.

Tom




From roy at panix.com  Sun Aug  8 21:39:05 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 21:39:05 -0400
Subject: PEP-0318
References: <41122FC2.1080608@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1251.1091764482.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4114152f@nntp.zianet.com> <aIOdnRybBucMsIncRVn-gA@comcast.com>
	<4116bc20$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<mailman.1369.1092015284.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-F54794.21390508082004@reader1.panix.com>

In article <mailman.1369.1092015284.5135.python-list at python.org>,
 Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:

> def doc(docstring):
>     def add_doc_string(func, docstring=docstring):
>         func.__doc__ = docstring
>         return func
>     return add_doc_string

I don't understand the "docstring=docstring" in the argument list for 
add_doc_string.  I suspect there's something subtle going on with scope 
rules, but I don't see it.


From max at alcyone.com  Mon Aug  2 13:50:55 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 10:50:55 -0700
Subject: Concerning classes (Newb question)
References: <6c8fb5be.0408020947.67ef58e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <410E7EFF.EEAEA4F2@alcyone.com>

Cyrille Lavigne wrote:

> I'm very new to the art of programming and I just learn OOP
> in python. I want to know why the following bit of code crash.
> Code:
> class Exemple:
>         def __init__(self):
>                 self.list=[]
>                 self.var1=3
> 
> c=Exemple
> print c.list, c.var1

You're binding c to the class, not an instance.  To create a new
instance, call the class:

	c = Exemple()

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ Everything's gonna be all right / Everything's gonna be okay
    -- Sweetbox


From klappnase at web.de  Sat Aug  7 07:34:50 2004
From: klappnase at web.de (klappnase)
Date: 7 Aug 2004 04:34:50 -0700
Subject: Tkinter, Simple Table
References: <cf1p6c$96q@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <a7a67196.0408070334.611ea9ce@posting.google.com>

ellisjb at my-deja.com wrote in message news:<cf1p6c$96q at odah37.prod.google.com>...
> Tkinter doesn't do tables very well...  The closest thing I can think
> of to what you want is the multilistbox recipe in the python cookbook,
> but that's not going to handle multiple lines per 'cell' IIANM.
> 
> -Jonathan
> 
> Torsten Mohr wrote:
> > Hi everybody,
> >
> > i'd like to have a small python script that creates a
> > table (like in Excel) and where i can enter multiline
> > text in the tables cells.
> >
> > Can anybody give me a hint where to look?
> >
> > Does TList do what i want?  THe description looked good,
> > but i didn't find an example for it.
> > 
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Torsten.

Maybe Tktable is what you want (<http://tktable.sourceforge.net>), I
never tried it, but it sounds promising and it seems like there's a
python wrapper included.

Michael


From max at alcyone.com  Mon Aug 16 19:57:51 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:57:51 -0700
Subject: music resources
References: <CObUc.124363$J06.99175@pd7tw2no>
Message-ID: <412149FF.A3FF732A@alcyone.com>

Elaine Jackson wrote:

> Is there such a thing as an executable language for music? If not, why
> not? And
> if yes, where can I find it? Naturally the ideal thing would be if
> such a
> language were implemented within python, but I would be willing to
> learn a
> lesser programming language if I had a reasonable assurance that it
> had what I'm
> looking for. I have, of course, googled for a solution, and I may have
> even
> found it, but if so I didn't recognize it as such. Any pointers will
> be mucho
> appreciado.

I have a module which can allow you to construct notes, chords, and
represent them on a keyboard, but it needs to be cleaned up and doesn't
have any sound output (i.e., you can type in the chord symbol and it
will show you the fingering on a keyboard).  What kind of language were
you actually looking for?

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ No need to tell her there's a world out there / She knows / She
    just doesn't seem worried at all -- Nik Kershaw


From unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom  Mon Aug  2 04:00:59 2004
From: unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom (Michel Claveau - abstraction méta-galactique non triviale en fuite perpétuelle.)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 10:00:59 +0200
Subject: python tutes on win32
References: <f6e0a56a.0408011144.12bde5ad@posting.google.com>
	<1ZmdnZw7k-WA0ZDcRVn-rg@adelphia.com>
Message-ID: <ceks0g$a9g$1@news-reader3.wanadoo.fr>

Perhaps :
        http://www.geocities.com/tutenatura/








From webraviteja at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 17:15:16 2004
From: webraviteja at yahoo.com (Ravi Teja Bhupatiraju)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 14:15:16 -0700
Subject: Proposal for removing self
References: <T_7Xc.61360$Fg5.2281@attbi_s53>
	<b74e43f1.0408252333.48074974@posting.google.com>
	<1gj4sup.hrowbz1bzo06mN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b74e43f1.0408261315.24b00c88@posting.google.com>

aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) wrote in message news:<1gj4sup.hrowbz1bzo06mN%aleaxit at yahoo.com>...
> Ravi Teja Bhupatiraju <webraviteja at yahoo.com> wrote:
>    ...
> > <sample>
> > class FooBar:
> >     __public__ = [Name, Age]
> >     def setName(name):
> >         Name = name
> > </sample>
> 
> Go ahead: learn about metaclasses and bytecode hacking and write your
> custom metaclass to perform this.  Except for the little detail that
> you'll never get away with not quoting 'Name' and 'Age' in the
> __public__ assignment, the rest is reasonably easy to perform.  Publish
> your metaclass and start campaigning for it.
> 
> As long as you're just yakking about it ain't gonna happen -- become a
> metaclass and bytecode expert and you can implement this in Python, or
> convince somebody who is such an expert, for which the implementation
> should be the job of a couple days tops.
> 
> 
> > While I am complaining, a few other peeves ...
> > 
> > Another thing is I dislike is having to use __ for *every* private
> > variable. For *me* __private__ at the top of the class definition code
> > would be more elegant. __readonly__ would be another nicety.
> 
> That's an even easier job for a custom metaclass with very modest amount
> of byecode hacking.  I suggest you start with this one, really truly
> VERY easy.  In fact you could probably do it without any actual hacking
> on the bytecode itself, just rewriting a few tables of strings in the
> code objects of the functions that are the methods of the class.
> 
> One impossible task (THAT would require hacking the Python parser and
> changing things very deeply) as I already mentioned would be the form
> you want for the assignment to __public__ (or similarly to
> __private__etc).  Those names are undefined (or worse defined globally)
> and to teach Python (and human readers!) that for that one speclal case
> of assignment to __public__ (or __private__), THAT one case only,
> COMPLETELY different rules apply than ANYWHERE else in Python, well,
> it's just as difficult as it is absurd.
> 
> I suggest you tackle the 'look ma no quotes!' task last, after
> everything else is working, because that one detail is going to take far
> longer than everything else put together, even if you're learning about
> metaclasses and bytecodes from scratch.
> 
>  
> > Introducing the above attributes into the language would not likely
> > break any existing Python code.
> 
> If this peculiar behavior is limited to classes whose metaclass is your
> custom RaviSpecial, "not likely" becomes "absolutely impossible", a
> great enhancement.  One more reason to implement this in a metaclass.
>  
> > Just my 2c.
> 
> Well make it three cents and do an implementation, if you really care.
> Otherwise, it's just words...
> 
> 
> Alex

Aren't you being a bit touchy Alex? Now I am glad that I did not
mention my wish list on properties and DBC :-). However, your post has
been quite informative. So I can live with that.

I wish I could rise up to your challenge and do all that stuff.
Regretfully, my Python skills don't extend to metaclasses and
especially "byte code hacking". Maybe you will explain those in your
next edition of the cookbook :-).

That said, I only could find one set of docs that could be called a
<tutorial> on metaclasses. Those were by David Mertz and Michele
Simionato. I could not get through them. I took comfort in the
statement "Metaclasses are deeper magic than 99% of users should ever
worry about" from the document. I am still looking for something I can
understand.


From nobody at nowhere.com  Mon Aug  9 16:13:42 2004
From: nobody at nowhere.com (Fred)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 22:13:42 +0200
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
	<278de0e.0408090935.6d758a5d@posting.google.com>
	<i0ffh01guveqks1n854c2g4l75dbdg57rr@4ax.com>
	<4117c80d$0$3158$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <jnmfh09qn45t2qmbn1ipfl3lpipm7t1ttr@4ax.com>

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 21:05:14 +0200, Olivier Thiery
<olivierthiery at free.fr> wrote:
>I'm afraid it's wrong: Boa does include a (pretty usable) GUI builder,
>although it (oddly) better works on windows than linux. It handles even
>sizers.

Thx for the tip. Digging deeper, I figured out how to get a GUI
designer window.

For newbies: In the Palette, select the New tab, click on the 5th icon
which says wxApp, which generates two source files in the Editor
window: wxApp1 and wxFrame1. Select wxFrame1,  then select File >
Frame Designer, and create objects by selecting widgets in the Palette
window.

>Wrong again: the last official release is 0.2.3 (see sf.net), but you can
>search google for a more recent downloadable 0.2.8 tgz.

OK, too bad it's not mentionned in the News section on their project
page. I'll check it out.

It can be downloaded here:

http://boa-constructor.sourceforge.net/files/boa-constructor-0.2.8-snapshot.tgz

Thx
Fred.


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Sat Aug 28 16:49:37 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 22:49:37 +0200
Subject: my first class: Args
In-Reply-To: <4130cf9d@nntp0.pdx.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408271601530.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<4130cf9d@nntp0.pdx.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408282222370.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>


Thanks for your comments. Especially the thing about using
try/except is very useful. I knew about it, but just didn't
"see" I could use it. Something I have to get used to.

More comments below.

Scott David Daniels wrote:

> >     def __iter__(self):
> >         "iterator set-up"
> ^^ useless docstring -- presume the reader knows python
> >         if self._argc == 0 and sys.stdin.isatty():
> >             self.usage()
> >         if self._argc == 0:
> >             self.infile = '<stdin>'
> >             self._stdin = 1
> >             self._in = sys.stdin
> >         else:
> >             self.infile = self._argv.pop(0)
> >             self._argc -= 1
> >             self._stdin = 0
> >             self._in = open(self.infile, 'r')
> >         return self
> ^^
>           try:
>               self.infile = self._argv.pop(0)
>           except IndexError:
>               if sys.stdin.isatty():
>                   self.usage()  # Doesn't return
>               else:
>                   self.infile = '<stdin>'
>                   self._stdin = True
>                   self._in = sys.stdin
>           else:
>               self._stdin = False
>               self._in = open(self.infile, 'r')
>           return self

This is the only instance I didn't follow your recommendation to
use try/except. It is a binary choice: do we use files given on
the command line or stdin? Neither is more natural than the
other. Also, it splits up lines of code that belong together.

Here is my re-write:

    def __iter__(self):
        "iterator: set-up"
        if self._argv:
            self.infile = self._argv.pop(0)
            self._in = open(self.infile, 'r')
            self._stdin = False
        else:
            if sys.stdin.isatty():
                self.usage()  # Doesn't return
            self.infile = '<stdin>'
            self._in = sys.stdin
            self._stdin = True
        return self

The exceptional case is there be no input, and the simplest test
here seems to be a simple if-statement.

> >         return self.next()
> ^^ Loop rather than recur unless you have a good reason.

Your solution looks much better.


> > if __name__ == '__main__':
>  >     ...
> ^^ also nicer to be able to test from included version:
>
> def demo():
>      ...
>
> if __name__ == '__main__':
>      demo()

That doesn't seem very useful. It depends on command line
arguments. If they are missing, it does a sys.exit(), probably
not what you want unless you run the module stand-alone.


-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From jaydonnell at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 24 14:06:37 2004
From: jaydonnell at yahoo.com (Jay Donnell)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 11:06:37 -0700
Subject: urllib hangs
References: <a6fdfd6b.0408230902.2afc0e08@posting.google.com>
	<cgdaoh$1gn$01$1@news.t-online.com>
	<a6fdfd6b.0408231537.c2c5af2@posting.google.com>
	<tZOdnSAokOE9VbfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <a6fdfd6b.0408241006.6b5c4d65@posting.google.com>

> have you actually looked at the comments in that
> module yet?  It does say exactly what you need to do...

I don't understand the inner workings of the socket or timeoutsocket
modules. On it's face it doesn't make sense that importing
timeoutsocket would magically override the behaviour of socket without
me doing anything else to the socket module. This appears to be what
happens, but it certainly isn't clear to someone that doesn't know how
it works. Here is what timeoutsocket says, "After this module
has been imported, all socket creation goes through this shim. ".
After reading this I was unsure if I needed to install
timeoutsocket.py into the base python distro because, again, it seems
odd that simply dropping timeoutsocket.py into my cwd and importing it
will override the behaviour of the socket module. This didn't say
"exactly what I need to do". It assumed a few things that seemed odd
to me. How does timeoutsocket.py " insert a shim into the socket
module."? What does that mean??? It wasn't clear! In the time it took
you and the other guy to criticize me you could have simply said,
"yeah, just drop it into your cwd and import it".

P.S. - I really do appreciate the help that Benjamin gave.

Here is what timeoutsocket says.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"This module enables a timeout mechanism on all TCP connections.   
After this module
has been imported, all socket creation goes through this shim.  As a
result, every TCP connection will support a timeout.

The beauty of this method is that it immediately and transparently
enables the entire python library to support timeouts on TCP sockets.
As an example, if you wanted to SMTP connections to have a 20 second
timeout:

    import timeoutsocket
    import smtplib
    timeoutsocket.setDefaultSocketTimeout(20)


The timeout applies to the socket functions that normally block on
execution:  read, write, connect, and accept.  If any of these
operations exceeds the specified timeout, the exception Timeout
will be raised.
---------------------------------------------------------------------


From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  9 01:04:04 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 00:04:04 -0500
Subject: how many bytes in an int
In-Reply-To: <4116f8ee$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
References: <9ACRc.1523$bJ2.9739@news1.mts.net>
	<4116f8ee$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <FADRc.1532$bJ2.9871@news1.mts.net>

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2004-08-09, Reid Nichol <rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>   I was wondering if I could control how many bytes are in an int and 
>>the byte order.  In C/C++ I can use int32 but how do I do this in 
>>python?  How can I control byte order?
> 
> 
> I suspect you want to use the "struct" module -- but it's a
> guess, since you haven't really said what it is you're trying
> to accomplish.
> 

I'm thinking of writing a movie file encoder (probably avi).  So, I need 
to output DWORD (lookup revealed its a 4-byte int) to a binary file. 
Therefore I need to know whether this can be done in python or not, 
which will tell me whether I'll try to do it or not.

But, since the 64-bit archecture is out, short, long, etc may change 
there meanings quite soon.  From what I've read in the struct module 
docs I can only tell it that it's a short, long, etc. but not whether 
it's exactly a 4-byte int.  Is there a way to do this?


From alberto.mantovaniNOSPAM at bologna.marelli.it  Wed Aug 18 09:03:09 2004
From: alberto.mantovaniNOSPAM at bologna.marelli.it (Alberto)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 13:03:09 GMT
Subject: get windows process
Message-ID: <412352e4.25110247@news.marelli.it>

Hi,
someone has an idea how to get Window process from python script? I
mean that listed in the "Task Manager Windows".

thanks
Alberto


From rob at nospam.net  Tue Aug 17 19:12:22 2004
From: rob at nospam.net (Robert Ferber)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 01:12:22 +0200
Subject: Databases: Getting values by column name
References: <o6f9v1-6si.ln1@pilz.hasos.com>
	<mailman.1802.1092753679.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<u62av1-o3k.ln1@pilz.hasos.com>
	<rpydnSodp-Q1Gb_cRVn-pg@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <nvfav1-1nq.ln1@pilz.hasos.com>

Istvan Albert wrote:

> Robert Ferber wrote:
> 
> 
>> I already know the stuff on that page, it's really slowing you down :-(
> 
> Your response to Skip Montaro's post demonstrates that
> you zipped trough it without paying much attention to what
> he said, so I think slowing a bit down would actually help
> you here.

I am already looking for that solution for several days already, I'm quite a
bit frustrated by now, sorry for my inpoliteness.

However Skip's solution almost works, at least the import statements and the
connect statement with cursorclass=MySQLdb.cursors.DictCursorNW don't
report an error.

> As other pointed out you have everything you need, using dtuple.py at:
> 
> http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/81252

Of course I looked at that webpage, but if I'm not mistaken, mx.ODBC.Windows
is only available on Windows which makes it useless for me, I can not find
a ODBC Package for my Linux distribution and the webpage doesn't give the
slightest hint what the package name is (which probably would make
searching for it too easy) or where to get it.

My distribution (SUSE) comes with dozens of Python-packages, but none have
"mx" or "odbc" in their name.

So after wasting another 20 minutes I discarded that webpage as useless and
responded to the only post that looked promising which was Skip's.

> or db_row at:
> 
> http://opensource.theopalgroup.com/

http://opensource.theopalgroup.com/files/ADOdb.html
Purpose:       Python DB-API 2.0 interface to Microsoft ADO objects
Compatibility: Python 2.0
Requires:      Python Win32 extensions, ADO 2.5+, mx.DateTime
Revision:      Version 0.10 - Alpha quality code

I didn't know that the Python-community was infested by so much
Microsoft-only code. Both of your hints seem to be Win-only. And it's
"Alpha quality".

Robert



From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Thu Aug 26 21:43:52 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 18:43:52 -0700
Subject: Newbie question on dictionary!!!
References: <494182a9.0408261150.a4c767f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1093571542.701929@news.commspeed.net>


"Balaji" <balaji at email.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:494182a9.0408261150.a4c767f at posting.google.com...
> Hello everybody...
>
> I want to ask a simple question.
>
> Suppose I have an list say g=['a','b','c','d']
>
> and I have an dictionary say k={'b':20,'a':10}
>
> Now I want to sort this dictionary on the basis of the list and if it
> doesnt find any of the element in the list then I wud like to replace
> it with zero..
>
> so I would like to modify k into {'a':10,'b':20,'c':0,'d':0}
>
> I have tried all the built in associated with dict and lists but was
> not able to come up with an solution...
>
> Can anyone help...

Dictionaries are not sortable but you can easily access the values in an
sorted order,

list = ['a','b','d']
dict = {'a':123,'c':456,'b':789}
newdict = {}
l = dict.keys() + list
l.sort()
for i in l:
    if dict.has_key(i):
        newdict[i] = dict[i]
    else:
        newdict[i] = 0
dict = newdict

That should do it,

Tom

     print dict[i]

Tom





From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Aug 10 08:38:42 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:38:42 +0200
Subject: Multiple inheritance with a common base class
References: <1092137872.2624.16.camel@dicaprio.akademie1.de>
	<mailman.1439.1092140352.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cfafki$t6s$04$1@news.t-online.com>

Markus Bertheau wrote:

> ? ???, 10.08.2004, ? 13:37, Markus Bertheau ?????:
> 
> Also I observe that the instance will in fact _not_ have a single copy
> of the data attributes used by the common base class. The following
> example demonstrates this:
> 
> class CommonBase:
>     def __init__(self):
>         self.no = 0
>     def setNo(self, no):
>         self.no = no
>  
> class LeafA(CommonBase):
>     def __init__(self):
>         CommonBase.__init__(self)
>         print("CommonBase.no: %i" % self.no)
>         CommonBase.setNo(self, 3)
>  
> class LeafB(CommonBase):
>     def __init__(self):
>         CommonBase.__init__(self)
>         print("CommonBase.no: %i" % self.no)
>         CommonBase.setNo(self, 4)
>  
> class Multi(LeafA, LeafB):
>     def __init__(self):
>         LeafA.__init__(self)

insert 

          print self.no          

to verify that at this point self.no is indeed 3. LeafB.__init__() then
calls CommonBase.__init__() which in turn sets self.no to 0 again.

>         LeafB.__init__(self)
>  
> m = Multi()
> 
> It outputs:
> 
> CommonBase.no: 0
> CommonBase.no: 0
> 
> If there was only one copy of the common base class, I'd have expected
> an output similar to
> 
> CommonBase.no: 0
> CommonBase.no: 3
> 
> This renders multiple inheritance pretty useless for me.
> 
> Can someone clear this all up and tell me how multiple inheritance is
> supposed to work in python?

Remember that __init__() is just a method like any other that will be called
automaticallly after the instance is created - not a constructor. If you
call it explicitly it will be executed no matter where you are in your
program. If you want to ensure that all methods with the same name are
executed once across an inheritance hierarchy, have a look at super().

If you know some C++ it might help to regard all python base classes as
virtual.

http://www.python.org/2.2.2/descrintro.html
http://www.python.org/2.3/mro.html

might also interest you - as a bonus, the latter has some nice ascii-art :-)

Peter



From a.neudecker at uni-bonn.de  Mon Aug  9 09:29:17 2004
From: a.neudecker at uni-bonn.de (Andreas Neudecker)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 15:29:17 +0200
Subject: Find out the file name of a module from inside the module?
Message-ID: <cf7u7d$npu$1@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>

Hi.

I know you can read the filename of a program as sys.argv[0]. But what 
about modules? Is there a similar way to find out the file name of a 
module (called by some other module or program) from inside this module?

Kind regards


Andreas



From sylvain.thenault at nospam.logilab.fr  Mon Aug 16 04:25:22 2004
From: sylvain.thenault at nospam.logilab.fr (Sylvain Thenault)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:25:22 +0200
Subject: xml attributes question
References: <mailman.1665.1092536770.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.16.08.25.21.927710@nospam.logilab.fr>

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 12:25:58 +1000, Ajay wrote:

> hi!
> 
> i am trying to print the keys of a NamedNodeMap which contains the
> attributes of a element.
> for the element,
> <DATA ref="#business.name">CatalogExample</DATA>
> 
> i expect
> attribs = plist[0].attributes
> attribs.keys()
> to print "ref" #plist[0] is the data element shown above It however prints
> the following
> [(None, u'ref')]
> 
> why?

because of xml namespaces. Any xml element / attribute is fully
caracterized by it's name and the namespace it belongs to. None is used to
represent the empty namespace. With the following element :

<DATA xmlns:me="mynamespace" me:ref="#business.name">...</DATA>

your sample code would have printed :
 [(u'mynamespace', u'ref')]


-- 
Sylvain Th?nault                               LOGILAB, Paris (France).

http://www.logilab.com   http://www.logilab.fr  http://www.logilab.org




From lbates at swamisoft.com  Fri Aug 27 10:00:55 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:00:55 -0500
Subject: A newbie in need....
References: <9c3edc58.0408261609.6640e400@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <lYKdnbkPyqsOo7LcRVn-iQ@comcast.com>

Reportlab (www.reportlab.org) has a good graphics
package (Reportlab Graphics).

HTH,
Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.

"Chris Patton" <chrispatton at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9c3edc58.0408261609.6640e400 at posting.google.com...
> Hey everybody. I'm trying to make a program that requires a 2D field
> to run. Besides "curses" or "ncurses", is there a python module that
> will create a graph?
>
> --Thanks for the help!




From ndeskins at ecn.purdue.edu  Wed Aug 18 11:43:37 2004
From: ndeskins at ecn.purdue.edu (Aaron Deskins)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 10:43:37 -0500
Subject: Newbie question about file input
In-Reply-To: <4122328e$0$8079$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
References: <cfqj3s$cti$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <cft2f9$ii0$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408171010590.548-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
	<cft6vv$khm$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
	<4122328e$0$8079$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <cfvtf9$sku$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>

Grant Edwards wrote:

> I don't understand the question.

Perhaps I should have been more specific. What does python store when 
you read a blank line? Nothing? A null variable? A '\n'?

How about this:

import string
import sys
zf=open(sys.argv[1],'r')
it = 0
while 1:
     line = zf.readline()
     print line
     rs = line.split()
     print rs
     if rs[0]== '[Event':
         it+=1
         print it
     if not line:
         break
zf.close()

This fails when it tries the "if rs[0]== '[Event':" statement. rs[0] 
doesn't exist (or is blank?) for a blank line in my input file.

Another code:

import string
import sys
zf=open(sys.argv[1],'r')
it = 0
while 1:
     line = zf.readline()
     it+=1
     if not line:
         break
zf.close()
print it

This only ends when the end of file is reached. Why not when a blank 
line is read? How does python treat the variable line (after a readline) 
differently after a blank line or the last line of the file?

-- 
Aaron Deskins
Graduate Student
Chemical Engineering
Purdue University


From jmeile at hotmail.com  Thu Aug  5 12:38:55 2004
From: jmeile at hotmail.com (Josef Meile)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 18:38:55 +0200
Subject: ZServerSSL and Certificates
In-Reply-To: <3222fe00.0408050548.43b5f0fd@posting.google.com>
References: <3222fe00.0408050548.43b5f0fd@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <4112611e$1@pfaff2.ethz.ch>

Hi Sean,

> Hi,
> 
> I have been able to get ZServerSSL to work with the demo certs, and
> with some self generated.  However I'm really not clear on
> certificates in general, and we're about to try it with real certs
> from a real CA.
I'm not a guru either, but I guess I know what your problem is. By the 
way, if I were you, I would try to use apache+mod_ssl+mod_rewrite 
instead of m2crypto. I have heard apache is faster than the later and 
you won't have ZServer exposed to the world. If you want more info about 
this, search the zope mailing list on list.zope.org.

> What I did this last go-around was to snag CA.pl and visit
> https://www.entrust.com/freecerts/ag_server_req.cfm
I haven't tried it, but it looks good.

> So I take privatekey.pem and the ca cert and combine them into a
> single file called ca.pem.
> 
> Then I:
> 
> # ./CA.pl -sign
> # openssl rsa < newreq.pem > newkey.pem
> 
> and I combine the server cert and newkey.pem and call it server.pem.
I think more or less that's why I did.

> However, when I try and access the site I get:
> 
> Microsoft IE6 first shows a request for a cert to use, I click OK to
> bypass it then a warning dialog that the ca is not trusted.
> 
> Mozilla diaplays a panel warning that there are three potential
> problems.
> 
> In either case if I ignore the warnings I get a secure connection.
> 
> I need to understand what I'm doing wrong here.
Perhaps the Common Name (CA) of your cert isn't the same as the url of 
your website. Check this on the cert properties on the certificate 
manager of Mozilla.

Other problem could be that "entrust.com" isn't listed as Trusted Root 
Certification Authority (Look on the certificate manager of mozila or 
IE). I only found "entrust.net". I guess the certificates generated by 
this website aren't intended for business. I think that if you want your 
certificate to be sign by some well known CA, you have to pay. Anyway, 
the warning is not bad. It depends on your needs.

Regards,
Josef


From unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom  Fri Aug  6 13:12:11 2004
From: unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom (Michel Claveau - abstraction méta-galactique non triviale en fuite perpétuelle.)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 19:12:11 +0200
Subject: Prothon is switching to the .NET platform
References: <000401c47b59$32539220$0d01a8c0@MarkVaio>
	<mailman.1257.1091769173.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cf0e9e$lgs$2@news-reader3.wanadoo.fr>

Hi !

I understand ; but, perso, I think : "it's a good new"  (because it is a
certain guarantee of interworking).

I will await the dotnet version, for to test prothon.

Michel Claveau





From zanesdad at bellsouth.net  Fri Aug 20 10:36:49 2004
From: zanesdad at bellsouth.net (Jeremy Jones)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:36:49 -0400
Subject: Newbie to XML in Python
In-Reply-To: <cg50qi$52p$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
References: <cg50qi$52p$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
Message-ID: <41260C81.4020401@bellsouth.net>

Jens Thiede wrote:

> XML in Python doesn't seem easy or intuitive. All I need to do, is to 
> interpret a small piece of XML in which I store data for the contents 
> of an autorun menu. What is the quickest/most effective way to do this?
>
> What should I use for this; SAX or DOM - and which parser of ether 
> one, or niether (if there is a third option)?
>
> What are your views,
>
> Jens.

depends....  I've had a lot of success parsing smallish XML files with 
DOM.  The thing I like about DOM is that you are the one walking through 
the XML as you see fit by getting child nodes and attributes and blah 
blah blah.  With SAX (which I've not used much), you setup handlers, the 
methods of which get called when tags are hit, which pretty much forces 
you to setup a state machine to keep track of where you are in the 
document.  I looked into xpath, but wasn't able to quickly figure out 
how to update attributes, but looked great just for querying an XML 
file.  I don't know the format of the autorun file you mentioned, but if 
it's small and all you need to do is query it, you may want to expand 
your sights to include xpath.


Jeremy


From lopexx at autograf.pl  Thu Aug 19 05:37:49 2004
From: lopexx at autograf.pl (lopex)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:37:49 +0200
Subject: Best programming language
In-Reply-To: <2oik8pFaqm1qU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <mailman.1718.1092639914.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<5155aad2.0408161008.40c57262@posting.google.com>
	<b74e43f1.0408162046.551fe4a3@posting.google.com>
	<2oik8pFaqm1qU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <cg1sbe$15d$1@news.onet.pl>

Greg Ewing wrote:
> Ravi Teja Bhupatiraju wrote:
> 
>> Just type programming and Python is second. First is C.
> 
> 
>  From which the conclusion is obvious: While C can
> be used for programming, it doesn't deserve to
> be called a language. :-)
> 

So python is built on top of something that is not a language at all ?

Marcin Mielzynski


From noone at here.com  Thu Aug 19 13:49:59 2004
From: noone at here.com (M. Clift)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 18:49:59 +0100
Subject: get last two in a length of unknown length?
References: <cg1494$lvr$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<mailman.1973.1092934706.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cg2p6h$s6d$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>

Cheers Phil : )




From dd55 at cornell.edu  Fri Aug 20 09:47:06 2004
From: dd55 at cornell.edu (Darren Dale)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:47:06 -0400
Subject: My only complaint about Python
In-Reply-To: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <cg4vcr$im0$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>



I'm going to be out of touch for a few days... sorry to leave this while 
its still being discussed.


From iketo2 at netscape.net  Sun Aug 29 00:30:52 2004
From: iketo2 at netscape.net (Isaac To)
Date: 29 Aug 2004 12:30:52 +0800
Subject: Generator expressions v/s list comprehensions
References: <mahesh-525B07.12195528082004@individual.net>
	<1gj8y77.6qshr41q531veN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<mahesh-7E265C.14093428082004@individual.net>
Message-ID: <87llfywooz.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>

>>>>> "Mahesh" == Mahesh Padmanabhan <mahesh at privacy.net> writes:

    Mahesh> Is returning a list really a limitation considering that
    Mahesh> lists can be transformed quite easily?

Yes.  (1) You lose your memory, and (2) you can't use whatever you get
outside after the list comprehension hidden loop when evaluating it.
Let's have some examples.

You lose you memory because you have to generate a whole list, which
might be unnecessary because your processing eventually don't need it.
It is the same as the difference between range() and xrange().  E.g.,
you might write

  for a in [x*x for x in range(100000)]:
      print a

you have to wait until you generate the 100k list, and at that time
you start printing out x*x for each of the values.  The middle-ground

  for a in [x*x for x in xrange(100000)]:
      print a

save half the memory, but still needs to generate the 100k list, and
you have to wait a long time before you print the first result.  Once
you get generator expression, you can say

  for a in (x*x for x in xrange(100000)):
      print a

and it will do the same thing, except that you don't need to wait at
the beginning, and at no instant there is a 100000 element list
sitting in memory.

[N.B.: Of course, in this simple example you'll instead write

  for x in xrange(100000):
      print x*x

 but sometimes things are not as easy, e.g., what you'd do if you have
 to pass the abstraction "x*x in xrange(100000)" into a function as a
 function argument?]

Now let's turn to the second point: with list comprehension, the
evaluation of an element happens after the evaluation of previous
elements, but before the previous elements are being used.  At times
this makes things hard to achieve or even impossible (and at that time
you have to throw up your hands and write a generator function
instead).  E.g., suppose you have this:

  import time
  hash = {}
  def process1(x):
      for i in xrange(1, 11):
          hash[x * i] = 1
  def process2(x):
      for i in xrange(2, 12):
          hash[x * i] = 1
  if time.time() % 2:
      process = process1
  else:
      process = process2

Now you have a loop, which you want a neater way to rewrite:

  for x in xrange(1000):
      if not hash.has_key(x):
          process(x * x)

in such a way that you don't need to let others specify the exact loop
to run.  Intuitively you'd like to write a list comprehension to do
that.  So you'd like to write

  for y in [x*x for x in xrange(1000) if not hash.has_key(x)]:
      process(y)

and let others pass the list into the function.  But this makes
hash.hash_key(x) to be called when none of the process(y) is called,
so it breaks completely.  With generator expression, you write:

  for y in (x*x for x in xrange(1000) if not hash.has_key(x)):
      process(y)

which do the trick.  Note that now "x*x for x in xrange(1000) if not
hash.has_key(x)" is an object, and you can move it out of the
function, ask somebody else to pass it to you---which you can't do in
the original for loop.  I.e., now you can say

  def func(gen):
      for x in gen:
          process(x)

and let somebody call

  func(x*x for x in xrange(1000 if not hash.has_key(x)))

Without generator expression, to achieve this you must code a
generator function.  So generator expression helps you to write simple
generators.

Regards,
Isaac.


From calidusdk at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 21 13:55:40 2004
From: calidusdk at hotmail.com (Artemisio)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 10:55:40 -0700
Subject: ZeroDivisionError: float division (baby steps)
References: <6daa8765.0408191133.2f2e22e3@posting.google.com>
	<ad052e5c.0408201930.1123ec9d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <6daa8765.0408210955.2d2efc39@posting.google.com>

danb_83 at yahoo.com (Dan Bishop) wrote in message news:<ad052e5c.0408201930.1123ec9d at posting.google.com>...
> calidusdk at hotmail.com (Artemisio) wrote in message news:<6daa8765.0408191133.2f2e22e3 at posting.google.com>...
> > I am a non programmer who just started with Python. So far I love it.
> > 
> > I would appreciate if you could help me fix this error I get taking this
> > exercise:
> >
> > count= 0
> 
> As other posters have mentioned, the problem is with your indentation.
>  But I can't resist giving advice.
> 
> First of all, I recommend starting every file with the line "from
> __future__ import division".  You will then no longer need to worry as
> much about writing things like
> 
> > sum= 0.0
> 
> because you'll get the same division results from "sum=0".  (If you
> really want integer division, use the // operator.)
> 
> > number= 1
> > print "Enter 0 to exit the loop"
> > 
> > while number != 0 :
> > 	number= input("Enter a number: ")
> > 
> >       count= count + 1   # [indentation corrected]
> >       sum= sum + number  # [indentation corrected]
> > 
> > count= count -1
> 
> Instead of using sentinel values, it's possible to put the loop
> condition in the middle of the loop, like this:
> 
> print "Enter 0 to exit the loop"
> 
> while True:               # loop "forever"
>    number = input("Enter a number: ")
>    if number == 0:        # condition for exiting the loop
>       break
>    count += 1
>    sum += number
> 
> Note that count no longer needs to be decremented by 1 at the end,
> because if you enter 0, it doesn't get incremented.
> 
> Also note that assignments of the form x=x+y can be abbreviated as
> x+=y, so you don't have to write the left-hand side twice.  The
> benefit will be more noticeable for statements like
> 
> verboseName[complicated + index + calculation].verboseAttribute += 1
> 
> > print "The average is: ", sum / count
> > #the error is in the above line
> 
> Often, the real error is long before the line that gives you the error
> message.
> 
> But you might want to modify this line to deal with the situation that
> count == 0.
> 
> if count == 0:
>    print "You didn't enter any numbers!"
> else:
>    print "The average is: ", sum / count

Thank you very much, Dan!
When one is a total beginner every bit of advice is most welcome. As I
write I am having a closer look to your tips.


From __peter__ at web.de  Sat Aug 14 12:06:01 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 18:06:01 +0200
Subject: IronPython-0.6 is now available!
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com><mailman.1398.1092065544.5135.python-list@python.org>	<278de0e.0408100515.5fd3740c@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1471.1092169905.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<278de0e.0408101929.cc3d8c8@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfld99$q81$02$1@news.t-online.com>

Neuruss wrote:

> performance, you can code this parts in C#. Believe me, I'm just a
> newbie, but I can say that translating from Python to C# (if you
> already have the python prototype) is a matter of minutes. No
> extensions, no hassle...everything compatible and smooth.

I that were true, no translation should be needed and no benefits of such a
translation be expected. 

But then I'm just a skeptic, don't believe me. Try it.

Peter
 



From raims at dot.com  Wed Aug 18 18:20:44 2004
From: raims at dot.com (Lawrence Oluyede)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 00:20:44 +0200
Subject: static class methods and data members
References: <b68d2f19.0408181244.39b5b562@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1n74wzbu8718i$.pqq3qsfy7bdn$.dlg@40tude.net>

In data 18 Aug 2004 14:41:46 -0700, Neil Zanella ha scritto:

> It seems to me that
> any truly OO programming language should support these so I'm sure that Python
> is no exception, but how can these be defined/implemented in Python? Currently
> I have Python version 2.3 installed on my system.

Why are you sure? I've used static methods two or three times in Python,
anyway you can gain something similar with the aid of staticmethod
http://www.python.org/2.2.1/descrintro.html#staticmethods

-- 
Lawrence (l dot oluyede at virgilio dot it)
"If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea."
from The Zen of Python by Tim Peters


From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 11 13:33:11 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:33:11 -0400
Subject: @decorators
In-Reply-To: <slrnchdifc.23j9.kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu>
References: <d22692a3.0408052234.7230fd74@posting.google.com>
	<roy-B53A92.08194306082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<10h73e5kh1et536@news.supernews.com> <4113e5be@nntp.zianet.com>
	<slrnchdifc.23j9.kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu>
Message-ID: <411a5858$1@nntp.zianet.com>

Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes wrote:
> You can already do pre- and post-conditions without new syntax:
> 
> import types
> def intdiv(a, b):
>     # preconditions
>     assert type(a) == types.IntType
>     assert type(b) == types.IntType
>     assert b != 0
>     rc = None
>     try:
>         # body
>         rc = a // b; return rc
>     finally:
>         # postconditions
>         assert type(rc) == types.IntType
> 
> If assignment was an expression, that return would be a little nicer,
> but it's acceptable.

Sorry, but to me this is ugly. The preconditions aren't so bad (in fact, 
much of my code has just such lines in it), but that postcondition block 
is awful. It looks arbitrary, hides the real "meat" of the function, and 
requires the construction of an exception frame when one shouldn't 
really be needed. It works, certainly, but I think we'll have to "agree 
to disagree" about how acceptable this syntax is. :)

 > Mark Bottjer <mark_bottjer at hotmail.com>
 > wrote on Fri, 06 Aug 2004 16:10:37 -0400:
 >
 >> Exactly. What's more, I don't think that decorators are really the
 >> ideal way to express DBC, either. For one thing, pre and post
 >> conditions often want access to at least the argument list, and often
 >> to the internal variables of the definition. I don't think that this
 >> will be possible with the decorators as proposed, since they are
 >> outside the scope of the function.

After more thought, I think that it might be possible using decorators 
and subfunctions. Shouldn't the following be workable?

import types
@pre_and_post
def intdiv(a, b):
     def __pre():
         assert type(a) == types.IntType
         assert type(b) == types.IntType
         assert b != 0
     def __post():
         assert type(rc) == types.IntType
     return a // b

Where pre_and_post effectively wraps intdiv with the statement sequence:

   intdiv.__pre()
   try:
     return intdiv( *args)
   finally:
     intdiv.__post()

This is functionally equivalent to your example (it even still requires 
the try/finally). But I suggest that this version is more understandable 
because it breaks the code up by what it does: __pre collects all the 
preconditions, __post collects all the postconditions, and the body is 
left alone. Theoretically, we could even globally enable or disable DBC 
by having pre_and_post switch on some global variable, which would not 
be possible with the conditions coded inline.

I'm not savvy enough with Python internals to code this up myself, but 
I'm sure someone out there either can, or can tell me why it won't work.

   -- Mark


From brent.hughes at comcast.net  Fri Aug 20 23:26:00 2004
From: brent.hughes at comcast.net (Brent W. Hughes)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 03:26:00 GMT
Subject: Why are strings immutable?
Message-ID: <chzVc.288437$a24.71659@attbi_s03>

I kind of hate to have to convert a string into a list, manipulate it, and
then convert it back into a string.  Why not make strings mutable?




From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Fri Aug  6 09:43:39 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 06:43:39 -0700
Subject: [Newby question] List comprehension
References: <pan.2004.08.06.13.22.50.75041@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <1091800212.120448@news.commspeed.net>


"Eelco Hoekema" <eelco.usenet at xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.08.06.13.22.50.75041 at xs4all.nl...
>
> I'm trying to get a list of tuples, with each tuple consisting of a
> directory, and a list of files. I only want a tuple if and only if the
> filtered list of files is not empty. And, i want the list of files in the
> tuples to be filtered. For this, i came up with the following code:
>
> <code>
>
> # song filter: will return true if the file seems to be an mp3 file.
> # (may not be the best way to do this)
> def song(f):
>     (name, ext) = os.path.splitext(f)
>     return ext.lower() == '.mp3'
>
> # list comprehension walking through a directory tree
> [(root, filter(song, files)) for (root, dir, files) in
os.walk(os.path.abspath('.')) if filter(song, files)]
>
>
> </code>
>
> Now, this will work. However, it seems kind of silly to call the filter
> twice. Is there a way to keep this in one list comprehension, but with
> just filtering once?
>
> eelco
>
>
How about,

fltres = filter(song, files)
[(root, fltres ) for (root, dir, files) in os.walk(os.path.abspath('.')) if
fltres]

Tom




From siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk  Thu Aug 26 11:06:00 2004
From: siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk (Sion Arrowsmith)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 16:06:00 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Proposal for removing self
References: <T_7Xc.61360$Fg5.2281@attbi_s53>
	<412ddf8d$0$275$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
Message-ID: <Cdf*w83sq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

Max M  <maxm at mxm.dk> wrote:
>You don't have to use self. You could simply use underscore '_'  instead.

When I started using Python for developing my own bits and pieces I
got into the habit of using 'I' instead of 'self'. Means pretty much
the same thing, stands out better in code, takes up less space on a
line, and is two keystrokes shorter. ...

>But other Python programmers will hate you for it ;-)

... And then stopped when I got the job of maintaining other people's
Python code and writing stuff that other people would have to use, if
not actively maintain.

Going back to look at C++ code (whoever wrote it) makes me realise
how helpful it is to have an explicit marker as to what's belongs
to a class and what doesn't. And before anyone mentions Hungarian
notation, (a) is 'self.' *really* that much more of an imposition
over 'm_'? and (b) it's not useful for distinguishing methods from
functions.

-- 
\S -- siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk -- http://www.chaos.org.uk/~sion/
  ___  |  "Frankly I have no feelings towards penguins one way or the other"
  \X/  |    -- Arthur C. Clarke
   her nu become? se bera eadward ofdun hl?ddre heafdes b?ce bump bump bump


From joachim at ee.ucla.edu  Sat Aug 14 17:32:51 2004
From: joachim at ee.ucla.edu (Joachim Dahl)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 14:32:51 -0700
Subject: extending the builtin array class from C
Message-ID: <cfm0gf$msg$1@daisy.noc.ucla.edu>

I would like to inherit the builtin array class and write som extension 
methods in C. Other people have suggested that I use numarray for that,
but all I want is a simple continuous C array of doubles, and a way to
access the array directly from some C extension methods.

I thought it would be possible to change the "xxsubtype.c" to accomodate
my needs, but when it comes to actually defining the "array" class I am
a bit lost. There are no header files, so how do I define the "array type?

The init method for the spamdict type of xxsubtype.c module looks 
something like:

static int spamdict_init(spamdictobject *self, PyObject *args, PyObject 
*kwds)
{
	if (PyDict_Type.tp_init((PyObject *)self, args, kwds) < 0)
		return -1;
	self->state = 0;
	return 0;
}

How would I replace the PyDict_Type with an array type? Or is it not 
possible to extend all builtin classes from C?

Thanks,
Joachim


From jbors at mail.ru  Wed Aug 18 02:46:02 2004
From: jbors at mail.ru (Dmitry Borisov)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 23:46:02 -0700
Subject: mp3 fft with python
References: <4122B41F.1020303@colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <002401c484ef$0b91a100$0200a8c0@amr.corp.intel.com>

From: "Garett Shulman"
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 6:42 PM
Subject: mp3 fft with python


> Hello, I would like to do a fft on an mp3 in python. I beleive I have
> all of the fft stuff straight in my mind but am not sure of the best way
> to get the sample data into a python array. I ran accross a web site a
> while back which suggested using sox to convert a wav file into a raw
> sample file and then open the raw file with python. However, I did not
> bookmark this site when I came accross it and cannot seem to find it
> now. If anyone has any suggestions as to a good way to get sample data
> out of an mp3 and into a python array for an fft I would greatly
> appreciate your suggestions. Thanks a lot. -Garett

Not sure if it'll work for you. But here it is:

SAMPLES= 500
BANDS= 20
NUM_FREQS= 256

import pymedia.audio.acodec as acodec
import pymedia.audio.sound as sound

dec= acodec.Decoder( 'mp3' )
analyzer= sound.SpectrAnalyzer( 1, SAMPLES, NUM_FREQS )
...
s= f.read( 20000 )
while len( s ):
  r= dec.decode( s )
  if len( r.data ):
      # Get fft info as bands
      bands= analyzer.asBands( BANDS, s )
      freqs= analyzer.asFrequencies( s )
      ...

http://pymedia.sourceforge.net

You may need to take a look at the examples/sound_viz.py in the source
tarball.
Dmitry/



From jblazi at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 16 09:03:51 2004
From: jblazi at hotmail.com (jblazi)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:03:51 +0200
Subject: Why does this (very simple piece of) code does not work?
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.16.13.03.51.421000@hotmail.com>

import os

L = os.listdir('.')

for x in L:
    print '!'+x+'!'+x[0]
    if x != 'rename.py':
       y = 'Kapustin (Hamelin): '+x
       os.rename(x,y)

I get

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 9, in ?
OSError: [Errno 22] Invalid argument


TIA,

jb



From gohaku at earthlink.net  Wed Aug 11 09:36:17 2004
From: gohaku at earthlink.net (gohaku)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 09:36:17 -0400
Subject: Capturing repeating group matches in regular expressions
In-Reply-To: <4119F7B6.6090003@xtra.co.nz>
References: <4119F7B6.6090003@xtra.co.nz>
Message-ID: <6C440902-EB9B-11D8-AAF7-000A9574CFD8@earthlink.net>


On Aug 11, 2004, at 6:40 AM, James Collier wrote:

> To illustrate, what I want is:
>
> >>> re1 = re.compile("([a-z]W)([a-z]X)+([a-z]Y)");
> >>> mo1 = re.match("aWbXcXdXeXfY");
>
problem with re.match, used re1.match
> >>> print mo1.groupsButNotAsWeKnowIt()
> ('aW','bX','cX','dX','eX','fY')
>
> instead of
>
> >>> print mo1.groups()
> ("aW", "eX", "fY")
>
> ... which captures only the last match from the second group.

This is somewhat off-topic, but I am using finditer:
for m in re.finditer('([a-z]W)','aWbWcXdXeWfY'):
	print m.groups()
#aW
#bW
#eW
I would like to compile the regex instead of using finditer.
How do I do this?

Thank you.
-gohaku



From stnchris at xmission.com  Fri Aug 13 18:56:17 2004
From: stnchris at xmission.com (Steve Christensen)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 22:56:17 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Flython
References: <slrnchq8lg.q3d.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
	<2o4m5pF6apnoU3@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <slrnchqhoh.ol9.stnchris@xmission.xmission.com>

In article <2o4m5pF6apnoU3 at uni-berlin.de>, Daniel Ellison wrote:
> Dave Benjamin wrote:
> 
>> I just want to say, for the record, that if anyone can successfully build a
>> Python compiler that can produce Flash bytecode, I will personally allow
>> you to throw *any number of pies* in my face, in as public of a ceremony as
>> you desire. Furthermore, I will match you 50/50 in the cost of the pies.
> 
> Wow, that's one heavy challenge! Either Dave thinks it just can't be 
> done, or he really, /really/ wants this compiler.

Or, he really likes pie.


-Steve


From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Aug 16 12:02:19 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (simo)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 09:02:19 -0700
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1637.1092428855.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<30260531.0408131853.18ec2446@posting.google.com>
	<LIqdnd7Jz9Mspr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <30260531.0408160802.75cae33f@posting.google.com>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:

[snip]
> > I'm a Perl programmer at heart - well that and PHP, plus the odd
> > dabbling in C/C++/C# etc.

> > Anyway, the thought of indentation instead of curly braces really put
> > me off to start with, 

> Ah, good.  Someone who was really there, instead of hearsay.

Hehe, thought that said "heresy" for a moment! ;o)

> Please, *why* did it put you off?

I really don't know, just opposition to change, I'm ashamed to say! I
just couldn't think how you would enclose areas of code without braces
- until you've seen some properly indented Python source, it is hard
to visualise.

> Didn't you already indent your code consistently?

Yes, personally, but sometimes it's hard when you're working on code
that has been used by 3 other people with different indentation habits
and even different editors - for example, one chap here uses two
spaces to ident, whereas I've always used 4, nothing like coding
standards eh?!

> Didn't you think that the removal of those braces would immediately
> make the code more readable (fewer lines, fewer extra cruft to
> distract the eye) and easier to type?

The removal of things like $ @ % { etc. appealed to me (then those
fsckers went and put @decorators into 2.4!)
 
> I'm curious why more people don't have "neat!" as their very
> first thought on encountering this, rather than "yuck!".

Possibly unfathomable, all I can say is it's opposition to change
(practically every other language does the braces thing) and also it's
hard to visualise until you see a big chunk of Python code - a "Hello
World!" doesn't really show the benefit of removing all that junk.

I have a C++ programer friend who thinks Python is a joke and is not
OOP as it doesn't have proper encapsulation, can you imagine getting
him to lose his braces? (wow that came out wrong!)


From apardon at forel.vub.ac.be  Tue Aug 31 08:14:33 2004
From: apardon at forel.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 12:14:33 GMT
Subject: Generator expressions v/s list comprehensions
References: <mahesh-525B07.12195528082004@individual.net>
	<1gj8y77.6qshr41q531veN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <slrncj8qt9.kp.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>

Op 2004-08-28, Alex Martelli schreef <aleaxit at yahoo.com>:
> Mahesh Padmanabhan <mahesh at privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> 
>> When list comprehension was added to the language, I had a lot of 
>> trouble understanding it but now that I am familiar with it, I am not
>> sure how I programmed in Python without it. 
>
> Oh good.
>
>> 
>> Now I see that generator expressions have been added to the language 
>> with 2.4 and I question the need for it. I know that it allows for lazy
>> evaluation which speeds things up for larger lists but why was it 
>> necessary to add it instead of improving list comprehension? 
>> 
>> Was there some sort of limitation that prevented list comprehension from
>> taking over the functionality that generator expressions provide?
>
> Sure, and that limitation is: list comprehensions return lists.  This
> one "limitation" (together with Python's applicative order evaluation,
> and you couldn't change THAT without breaking the whole caboodle of
> existing programs!) implies everything else.
>
>> 
>> I have always liked the fact that Python has limited capabilities for
>> having more than one way to do it and it seem to me that generator 
>> expressions break that philosophy. It is similar to how you have to use
>> range or xrange depending on how large the range is.
>> 
>> Can someone please explain the reasoning behind it?
>
> Generator comprehensions are wonderful and there is no way Python list
> comprehensions can provide the same features, since lists need to be
> lists.  Sure, list(e(x) for x in foo) IS just the same thing as [e(x)
> for x in foo].  We'll remove the redundancy in 3.0 -- not earlier
> because it will break backwards compatibility.  The only sensible way I
> can see right now for 3.0 to remove this redundancy is by removing list
> comprehensions and leaving only generator comprehensions, btw.

The one problem I have with generator comprehensions is that, because
list comprhension came first they look like tuple comprehensions.

In order to avoid this same kind of confusion with new comers I think
it would be best if generator comprehensions are explained first and
that list comprehension is just syntax sugar for list(genexp)

-- 
Antoon Pardon


From luser at aol.com  Tue Aug 17 15:41:11 2004
From: luser at aol.com (duke0uke)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 12:41:11 -0700
Subject: Numarray: Using sum() within functions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408161336030.13512-100000@ccc3.wpi.edu>
References: <10hsvoka533ci3c@corp.supernews.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408161336030.13512-100000@ccc3.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <10i4nqnslvfqi7f@corp.supernews.com>

Christopher T King wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Jim Cser wrote:
> 
> 
>>I have a function to generate a multi-dimensional array, which then
>>gets summed over one axis.  The problem is that the dimensions
>>are large, and I run out of memory when I create the entire array,
>>so I'm trying to do the sum *within* the function.
>>
>>Example-- variables x,y,z,t; dimensions numX, numY, numZ, numT;
>>functions f1(x,y,z,t), f2(y,z,t);  want to calculate f1*f2 and
>>sum over t to get out[x,y,z].
> 

Cobbling together a number of suggestions, what finally worked was--

def f3(x, y, z, t_range=arange(numT)):
   tempval = 0.* x
   for t in t_range:
     tempval += f1(x,y,z,t) + f2(y,z,t)
   return tempval

out = fromfunction(f3,(numX,numY,numZ,1))


I couldn't quite get sum() to work inside the function, but this
is definitely good enough for now.  Thanks to all for your help.
-Jim Cser






From josh at work.com  Tue Aug  3 16:32:22 2004
From: josh at work.com (JCM)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 20:32:22 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: simple Thread question
References: <b8001e9f.0408031151.4f617c6@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <ceosom$6ln$1@fred.mathworks.com>

You should override the run method, but call thread.start() to kick
the execution off in a separate thread.  If you call thread.run(),
you're just running your code in the same thread.

adeger <adeger at netlibrary.com> wrote:
> Having trouble with my first forays into threads.  Basically, the
> threads don't seem to be working in parallel (or you might say are
> blocking).  I've boiled my problems to the following short code block
> and ensuing output.  Seems like the output should be all interleaved
> and of course it's not.  Running Python 2.2 from ActiveState on
> Windows XP (also doesn't work on Windows 2000).

> Thanks in advance!
> adeger

> #====================================================

> import threading

> class TestThr(threading.Thread):
> 	def __init__(self):
> 		threading.Thread.__init__(self)

> 	def run(self, name):
> 		import time
> 		for i in range(1,11):
> 			print 'thread ', name, ' instance ', str(i)
> 			time.sleep(1)

> threads = []
> for inst in ('a', 'b', 'c'):
> 	thread = TestThr()
> 	thread.run(inst)
> 	threads.append(thread)

> # output below
> thread  a  instance  1
> thread  a  instance  2
> thread  a  instance  3
> thread  a  instance  4
> thread  a  instance  5
> thread  a  instance  6
> thread  a  instance  7
> thread  a  instance  8
> thread  a  instance  9
> thread  a  instance  10
> thread  b  instance  1
> thread  b  instance  2
> thread  b  instance  3
> thread  b  instance  4
> thread  b  instance  5
> thread  b  instance  6
> thread  b  instance  7
> thread  b  instance  8
> thread  b  instance  9
> thread  b  instance  10
> thread  c  instance  1
> thread  c  instance  2
> thread  c  instance  3
> thread  c  instance  4
> thread  c  instance  5
> thread  c  instance  6
> thread  c  instance  7
> thread  c  instance  8
> thread  c  instance  9
> thread  c  instance  10


From cjankowski at hbr-inc.com  Wed Aug 11 19:18:51 2004
From: cjankowski at hbr-inc.com (Chris Jankowski)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 16:18:51 -0700
Subject: Pilprint
References: <a1301a8e.0408110653.77579585@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1512.1092239365.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <a1301a8e.0408111518.3007b66d@posting.google.com>

"Fredrik Lundh" <fredrik at pythonware.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1512.1092239365.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> Chris Jankowski wrote:
> 
> >I am a newbie to the world of Python and trying to print some
> > images(.tif).  I have installed the PIL Library and can use the some
> > of the fuctions like: m.format, im.size, im.mode without any problem.
> > When I try to use the Tools like pilprint and pilfile, I can't seem to
> > get them to work.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> >
> > Examples:
> >>>> pilfile *.tif
> > Traceback (  File "<interactive input>", line 1
> >    pilfile *.tif
> >
> >>>> pilprint 'c:/chris.TIF'
> > Traceback (  File "<interactive input>", line 1
> >    pilprint 'c:/chris.TIF'
> >                          ^
> > SyntaxError: invalid syntax
> 
> pilprint (etc) are programs, not Python statements.  you're supposed
> to run them from the standard command line, not Python's interactive
> prompt.
> 
> depending on your operating system, and how things are set up, some
> of these should work:
> 
>     pilprint.py c:/chris.tif
>     python pilprint.py c:/chris.tif
>     pilprint c:/chris.tif
> 
> </F>

Thanks, I got it to run, but now I have a Broken Pipe Error.  Any
ideas?  We are using a network printer.  Would that have anything to
do with it?  Also, I got an error message about not supporting group
4, when I tried it with a .tif image, are they supported?


From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Sun Aug 22 20:29:21 2004
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 17:29:21 -0700
Subject: problem using C-bindings
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.19.22.14.03.407680@eq.homelinux.org>
References: <pan.2004.08.19.20.32.09.806717@eq.homelinux.org>
	<mailman.1985.1092951949.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<pan.2004.08.19.22.14.03.407680@eq.homelinux.org>
Message-ID: <41293c23$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

eq wrote:
> Am Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:45:45 -0400 schrieb Jack Diederich:
> 
> 
>>On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 10:32:15PM +0200, eq wrote:
>>
>>>Hi,
>>>
>>>I'm trying to create a program(written in C) that does the following
>>>things using embedded Python:
>>>1. Create a module(say, "MyModule")
>>>2. Create a class in that module(say, "MyClass")
>>>3. Create a function in that module(say, "MyFunction")
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>	class_dict=PyDict_New();
>>>	class_name=PyString_FromString("MyClass");
>>>	class=PyClass_New(NULL,class_dict,class_name);
>>>	PyDict_SetItemString(module_dict,"MyClass",class);
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>Take a look at Modules/xxsubtype.c in the source distribution.
>>It is an example of how to subtype a builtin.  xxmodule.c shows
>>how to make a class from scratch.  Both are out of date but a good
>>sarting spot.
>>
> 
> Hm, perhaps I over-complicated my problem:
> I don't need a full python-class in pure C. I just need to create a
> (python!) function(a dynamic one, not a static C function) and attach it
> to an already existing python-class just by using C-calls.
You've already managed this.  The error message is telling you it has
no place to put "self".

> I try to do this by compiling the function's code with:
> 
> pyfunc_code=Py_CompileString(func_code,"",Py_file_input);
> 
> where func_code could be something like "print 'hello'" and then I try to
> make a function out of this by calling:
> 
> pyfunc=PyFunction_New(pyfunc_code,dict);
> 
> where dict is the global namespace for the function.
> What I now want is to attach this function to the already created class
> "MyClass".
You should call "staticmethod" on your pyfunc before putting it into the
class.


The error message you got before:
	TypeError: ?() takes no arguments (1 given)
indicates that you had defined a 0-arg function and were calling it
with one arg.  That arg was the "self" arg.  You could do the moral
equivalent of:
     MyClass.MyFunction = staticmethod(MyClass.MyFunction)
after the code you have now.  Alternatively you could pull staticmethod
from __builtins__ and "apply" it yourself before storing in attachFunc.

Just guessing from "funcobject.h", but I'll bet you could also change 
attachFunc as follows

void attachFunc(PyObject* class, PyObject* dict,
                 char* func_code, char* name)
{
	PyObject* pyfunc_code;
	PyObject* pyfunc;
	pyfunc_code=Py_CompileString(func_code,"",Py_file_input);
	pyfunc=PyFunction_New(pyfunc_code,dict);
	pyfunc=PyStaticMethod_New(pyfunc);

	PyObject_SetAttrString(class,name,pyfunc);
}

You do know you need to do much more error checkig here, don't you?
Untested (my mail machine and my C machine are different).

int attachFunc(PyObject* class, PyObject* dict,
                char* func_code, char* name)
{
     PyObject* pyfunc_code = NULL;
     PyObject* pyfunc = NULL;
     PyObject* pyfunc_static = NULL;
     int result = -1; /* 0 for success */

     pyfunc_code = Py_CompileString(func_code, "", Py_file_input);
     if (pyfunc_code) {
         pyfunc = PyFunction_New(pyfunc_code, dict);
         if (pyfunc) {
             pyfunc_static = PyStaticMethod_New(pyfunc);
             result = PyObject_SetAttrString(class, name, pyfunc);
         }
     Py_XDECREF(pyfunc_static);
     Py_XDECREF(pyfunc);
     Py_XDECREF(pyfunc_code);
     return result;
}

-Scott David Daniels
Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 13:26:09 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:26:09 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E14@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
	<mailman.2063.1093020568.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<s9z4qmx21ca.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>
Message-ID: <loom.20040820T192018-142@post.gmane.org>

Bernhard Herzog <bh <at> intevation.de> writes:
> > It does look 
> > like J2 is generally the preferred syntax so far
> 
> At least of those who don't like the pie syntax at all.

Yes, this is what I intended.  Sorry if it wasn't clear.

> I don't know.  If J2 gets the majority of the votes for an alternative,
> it might be a good idea to have a second vote just between the pie
> syntax and J2.  I'd vote for pies.

I would advise against this.  GvR has said from the beginning that he doesn't 
want to see a vote -- he wants to see convincing proposals and a more or less 
unified community support.  He's also said that he'd be willing to consider 
adding two syntaxes for a while if we could really agree on a single 
alternative syntax.

So while the vote for non- at pie syntaxes seems to have been useful for focusing 
our discussions for an alternative proposal, I can't see what use a vote 
between J2 and @pie would do.  Perhaps I've missed something here though, so 
I'm open to an explanation...

Steve



From grante at visi.com  Thu Aug 26 11:00:39 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 15:00:39 GMT
Subject: Best processor (i386) for Python performance?
References: <cgjsk2$le4@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <412dfb17$0$65599$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-26, Brett C. <brett at python.org> wrote:

> In terms of multithreading, an I/O intensive app that is
> threaded can make use of dual procs.  Otherwise threaded apps
> can't for technical reasons (GIL and such but don't need to
> get into those details).

That's rather dissappointing.  If I write a multi-threaded app
in C it can utilize multiple processors, but the same app in
Python can't?

Not that I _have_ any SMP machines...

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  I Know A Joke!!
                                  at               
                               visi.com            


From http  Mon Aug 30 04:23:16 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 01:23:16 -0700
Subject: Generator expressions v/s list comprehensions
References: <mahesh-525B07.12195528082004@individual.net>
	<1gj8y77.6qshr41q531veN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<mahesh-7E265C.14093428082004@individual.net>
	<87llfywooz.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<mahesh-F76AD6.17094429082004@individual.net>
	<1gjbs1e.assxlxlud1m0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7xbrgtrq4r.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:
> It would sure be nice if Python had been born back from day one with all
> the neat features it has taken years to develop -- that way we wouldn't
> have any issues that are there just because of backwards compatibility.
> 
> Unfortunately, this wish is totally unrealistic -- obviously people do
> come up with cool ideas such as the iterator protocol, and generators,
> after the language has been around for a while. 

And yet a lot of the unrealisticness comes directly from the Python
culture.  Maybe it took a while to think up the iterator protocol, but
what about nested scopes?  What about the += operator?  How about the
sorted() method on lists?  One could go on and on with more examples
like that.  These things exist in other languages and had been
requested in Python for years before they got accepted.  And every
time some little thing gets added changing the language, that creates
a new mini-dialect that users have to remember for a while and then
forget.  The result is "version fatigue"; one gets bleary trying to
remember what's in the language this week.  Those features are in
other languages for a reason, and there's been enough experience using
them (in those languages) that their desirability for Python should
never have seriously been in question.  So it would have been better
to include them from the beginning, instead of through separate
episodes of prolonged agony for each one.


From grante at visi.com  Sun Aug 22 13:28:41 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 17:28:41 GMT
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<7x4qmv6cwo.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <slrncihlu9.av9.grante@isis.visi.com>

On 2004-08-22, Paul Rubin <> wrote:
> aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) writes:
>> >It seems there are quite a few projects aimed to improve Python's
>> >speed and, therefore, eliminate its main limitation for mainstream
>> >acceptance.
>> 
>> What makes you think speed is Python's primary limitation for mainstream
>> acceptance?
>
> Well, whenever I want to write a mainstream application and think of
> using Python, my first reaction is that Python is too slow...

And I presume you're pleasantly surprised when you run your program and find
out it's not too slow?

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Did you move a lot
                                  at               of KOREAN STEAK KNIVES this
                               visi.com            trip, Dingy?


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 12:04:34 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 02:04:34 +1000
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <opsb9g3hjudgjose@mail.yahoo.it>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<opsb9g3hjudgjose@mail.yahoo.it>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408050904431bb49a@mail.gmail.com>

> This is a bad joke after all the strong perplexities showed about its
> decorators solution.
> I vote against the "@decorator before function" solution.

Please feel free to actually provide reasons for not liking @decorators.

Also - if you think you don't like it - please _try_ _it_ _out_ first.

Anthony


From Domoran at yahoo.de  Mon Aug 16 13:00:08 2004
From: Domoran at yahoo.de (Mathias Mamsch)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:00:08 +0200
Subject: Problems with PyGILState_Ensure () and PyGILState_Release ()
References: <cfi9rv$ijq$1@fuerst.cs.uni-magdeburg.de>
	<5upuh0hivs0mfg2bu6ceu73o9jsivuql2i@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <cfqp7c$hsl$1@fuerst.cs.uni-magdeburg.de>

Hi Greg, thanks for your answer ...

I really need help with this, because till now I found no solution to my
problem ... I always get FatalErrors, Deadslocks, or protection faults ...

I created some example code for what I want to accomplish. I have a single
thread which calls some C-Function which should call back into python.

To your questions: no nowhere in *my* code ReleaseThread is called and I
dont write to gstate either ...
I dont understand the thread handling of python completely... Any ideas
where - besides the Python docs - I can find some information about that  ?

Thanks Mathias Mamsch

here is some example code which produces my problem.
hope it helps to understand it ...

-----------

#include "python.h"
#include <windows.h>

#include <iostream>

using namespace std;

#define GETLOCK     PyGILState_STATE gstate; \
                    gstate = PyGILState_Ensure ();

#define RELEASELOCK PyGILState_Release (gstate);

static DWORD Tid;

static int CHandleFunction ()
{
    GETLOCK
    // here will I callback to python ...
    cout << "Hello" << endl;
    RELEASELOCK

    return 0;
}

static PyMethodDef SpamMethods[] = {
    {NULL, NULL, 0, NULL}        /* Sentinel */
};

// some C Thread which calls the Handler ...
DWORD __stdcall WCThread (LPVOID lpThreadParameter)
{
        while (1)
        {
                CHandleFunction();
                Sleep(500);
        }
}

PyMODINIT_FUNC initkdll(void)
{
    Py_InitModule("kdll", SpamMethods);
    // Create some C++ Thread for testing purposes
    CreateThread(NULL,0,WCThread,NULL,0,&Tid);
}





From osuchw at ecn.ab.ca  Wed Aug  4 14:02:43 2004
From: osuchw at ecn.ab.ca (Waldemar Osuch)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 18:02:43 GMT
Subject: Finding all time periods for a given interval within a date
	range
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1136.1091636583.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1136.1091636583.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <7x9Qc.11245$M95.6881@pd7tw1no>

Graeme Longman wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> I was wondering if anyone has written some Python code which uses a start
> date and end date and a given interval (day, month or year) and outputs all
> the time periods for that range and interval.
> 
> For example you may wish to find all the months between the dates
> '2004-02-14' and '2004-08-04'. You would maybe use a function where you pass
> in those starting and ending dates and the interval 'month' and you'd get
> back a list of those months. I guess you would need to year part of the date
> too, so ['2004-02', '2004-03', '2004-04', '2004-05', '2004-06', '2004-07',
> '2004-08']. If you had passed in 'day' as the interval then you would be
> given back a list of all the days in those months.

Try using dateutil module by Gustavo Niemeyer found at:
https://moin.conectiva.com.br/DateUtil

from datetime import date
from dateutil.rrule import *
d1 = date(2004,2,14)
d2 = date(2004,8,4)
for d in rrule(MONTHLY, d1, until=d2):
     print d.year, d.month

2004 2
2004 3
2004 4
2004 5
2004 6
2004 7

Substitute MONTHLY with DAILY in the rrule and you will get list of days

Waldek


From cole at tuininga.org  Tue Aug 24 10:19:22 2004
From: cole at tuininga.org (Cole Tuininga)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:19:22 -0400
Subject: setdefault threadsafe?
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.24.14.19.21.715966@tuininga.org>

Quick question for y'all - is a dict's setdefault call threadsafe?  

In other words, if I have code like the following:

tmp = someObj()

result = dictname.setdefault( key, tmp )


is it going to behave "correctly" in a threaded environment?

Thanks in advance.

-Cole Tuininga


From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 12 12:59:07 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:59:07 -0400
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
In-Reply-To: <cffbbu$amv$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
	<60dfb6f6.0408111846.615ee9eb@posting.google.com>
	<3YWdnYxLf--ObofcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<cffbbu$amv$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <411ba1db$1@nntp.zianet.com>

Michael Sparks wrote:
> Looking at the wiki it states (as negative points):
>    1 New keyword
>    2 Overkill for the simple case like classmethod
>    3 Many people felt it was wrong use of an identation suite.
>    4 Has the same problem as 5.A, in that the decorate block implicitly
>      affects the following def. This does not occur elsewhere in Python.
>    5 Technical problems with the current grammar parser if a suite
>      *starts* with an optional part. (Ending with an optional part, such
>      as "else:" is OK, but starting with one is not.) 
>    6 No implementation currently exists. 
[snip]
> Item 3 is opinion, but I don't know where the arguments are leading to
> that point, so I'll just take that at face value.

The contention was that indentation is used to indicate the effective 
scope in other contexts: e.g., def changes how the statements *indented 
under it* are handled (they are packed into a code object instead of 
executed immediately), but doesn't change how the next statement at the 
same indentation level is handled (the statement result may change, due 
to coupling via common data, but the statement itself is handled exactly 
as it would be were the previous statement not present). With this 
syntax, though, the decorate block changes how the def statement is 
handled, even though they are at the same indentation level.

Put another way: applying what I know about how indentation is used 
elsewhere in Python to this syntax, I would expect the effect of the 
decorate statement to be limited to the statements indented under it. I 
would not expect it to affect the next statement at the same level 
except by the normal coupling of namespace (program state).

Of course, this argument also applies to the prefix @ syntax, but at 
least with that we have a funny character cluing us in to the special 
behavior.

> Regarding 4, it strikes me that this isn't the case (unless it strictly
> means "block"!).

It meant strictly "block". :)

 > An import at the beginning of a block changes the
> meaning of [the rest of] a block.

Yes, by means of changing the program state--specifically, the namespace 
used to resolve identifiers. The decorate block changes the meaning of 
only the *next* statement by means of changing the parser (not program) 
state. I see them as quite different. YMMV.

 > Similarly a class statement changes the meaning of
> the defs immediately following it.

It affects the meaning of the defs indented under it. The only way it 
affects anything after it is by the modifications it makes to the 
namespace. Again, the statements at the same indentation level are 
coupled only via namespace, not parser state. The statements in indented 
suites are coupled via parser state, but that coupling is made obvious 
via the indentation.

> I'd agree that it's not ideal, but
> the argument that code preceding the def isn't allowed because it
> changes the meaning of the def doesn't make sense to me - that's what
> the @ syntax does.

Indeed, and that partially why I like the '@' symbol (or possibly a meta 
keyword). If we're going to add something which completely disregards 
the existing indentation/coupling idioms, then it should have an obvious 
visual trigger.

   -- Mark


From fumanchu at amor.org  Tue Aug 24 17:46:48 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:46:48 -0700
Subject: J2 paper 0.2.1
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E59@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Tim Hochberg wrote:
> I agree with Paul that the choice of keyword *is* important. A 
> misleading keyword is worse than cryptic punctuation. The keyword is 
> lying, while the punctuation is merely silent.

That helps clarify nicely.

> I also agree that predef reads poorly. I presume it's meant to imply 
> something like preample or header, but I read it as predefine, which 
> makes me think of some sort of evil forward declaration, not a 
> decorator. It also just feels wrong to me, not that that carries much 
> weight.

You mean decorators *aren't* evil forward declarations? >;)

> Sadly I don't have any better ideas for a keyword. While I'm on the 
> topic, let me point out some of the other keywords mentioned in the 
> proposal that read poorly. "amend", "extend" and "qualify" 
> all share a 
> common flaw that in normal usage the thing being amended/extended/etc 
> should follow the word. Thus the natural reading of:
> 
> amend:
>      foo
> def bar():
>      ...
> 
> is somewhere between "huh?" and "clearly bar is used to amend foo."

Any proposal to winnow down the list is eagerly accepted. :) I admit I
hadn't studied some of those in detail. If there are no disagreements,
I'll remove amend and extend. In addition, I'd like to remove confer,
preamble, preface, and prologue, since nobody has supported them other
than the OP. This would leave:

by, having, helper, meta, per, predef, qualify, through, using, via

The important thing to note is that these are examples of a principle,
not recommendations. I'll be more explicit about that in the doc.

Thanks for your comments!


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From matt.price at utoronto.ca  Tue Aug 10 11:44:57 2004
From: matt.price at utoronto.ca (Matt Price)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 11:44:57 -0400
Subject: cgi script: get the url of this page
In-Reply-To: <slrnchfvfm.lt0.news@woody.datatailors.com>
References: <mailman.1409.1092077336.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnchfvfm.lt0.news@woody.datatailors.com>
Message-ID: <20040810154457.GA28075@utoronto.ca>

On Tue, Aug 10, 2004 at 12:43:03AM +0200, Peter van Kampen wrote:

> > is there a standard trick to get the url of the current page in a cgi
> 
> import os
> 
> script = os.environ["SCRIPT_FILENAME"]
great, thanks for the hint.  tho I think "script_filename" gives the
file name, not the internet url -- for that REQUEST_URI seems to be
better.  This is great, thanks!

> > script, or the url from which form data has been passed??  I want to
> 
> Hmm. You can try HTTP_REFERER but it depends on several things (browser,
> server, cgi-implementation etc.) wether this reports something useful or
> not. It is probably more reliably to check REMOTE_ADDR if that would provide
> enough information.
hmm, REMOTE_ADDR doesn't seem to show up mosto f the time;
HTTP_REFERRER works great, though, long as the fom isn't sent to the
page it came from...  

thanks much!
matt

> 
> Hth,
> 
> PterK
> 

-------------------------------------------
Matt Price	    matt.price at utoronto.ca
History Department, University of Toronto
(416) 978-2094
--------------------------------------------


From bingham at cenix-bioscience.com  Fri Aug 27 02:58:03 2004
From: bingham at cenix-bioscience.com (Aaron Bingham)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 08:58:03 +0200
Subject: Python MySQL API and date data type
In-Reply-To: <20040826203840.411F81589B@net.tamu.edu>
References: <20040826203840.411F81589B@net.tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <412EDB7B.3010506@cenix-bioscience.com>

Yong Wang wrote:

>>Hi:
>>   We have a database system. In the database, we have an 
>>attribute called date0, which contains date data (format:
>>i. e. 2004-08-12). I wrote a script to fetch the data
>>in a specified time period:
>>for exaplme:
>>date1 = raw_input('start date ')
>>date2 = raw_input('end date ')
>>
>>ie.  date1 = '2004-08-12'
>>     date2 = '2004-08-20'
>>run  = ('SELECT * FROM account WHERE (date0 >= date1) and (date0 <= date2)')
>>data = dbh[runn]
>>.....
>>    
>>
You are getting database columns and Python variables confused.  I am 
not familiar with MySQLdb in particular, so I may have a couple details 
wrong, but you probably meant something like this:

data = db.query('SELECT * FROM account WHERE (date0 >= %s) and (date0 <= 
%s)', (date1, date2))

This will substitute the *values* of the Python variables date1 and 
date2 into the query for you.

Regards,

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Bingham
Application Developer
Cenix BioScience GmbH
--------------------------------------------------------------------



From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Sat Aug 21 19:55:29 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 19:55:29 -0400
Subject: Validating SGML parser?
In-Reply-To: <cg8gkt$tiu$07$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <cg8gkt$tiu$07$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <2oq5h5Fd6190U1@uni-berlin.de>

Benjamin Niemann wrote:
> does anyone know of a validating SGML parser in python (like 
> xmlproc.xmlval does for XML)? Goal is to validation HTML against the 
> DTD, similar to validator.w3.org, not all SGML obscurities are required.

There are plenty of command-line tools for that. Why not use one of them 
through Python?


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 19:44:50 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:44:50 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <cg62di$qpf$1@sea.gmane.org>

Note: This is *not* about implicit method typing... :-)

Although I haven't seen it discussed anywhere, we already have a 
decorator syntax (of sorts) that we use to annotate functions and 
classes.  The " __var__ = " business.  Have we decided that it is 
woefully insufficient?  I know that there is a preference for the 
decorators to appear outside of the function def, but putting that 
aside, this 'style' of decorating already has a precendent in python, so 
it is probably as pythonic as you can get...

     class Foo:
         __metaclass__ = M
         __automethods__ = True
         __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'
         __version__ = '0.1'

     def baz(a,b,c):
         __synchronized__ = True
         __accepts__ = (int,int,int)
         __returns__ = int
         __author__ = 'Fred Flintstone'

	return a + b + c


What is the burning desire to abandon this style?

Paul



From gneuner2/ at comcast.net  Fri Aug 27 01:00:33 2004
From: gneuner2/ at comcast.net (George Neuner)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:00:33 -0400
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <tkfti0laq7ebn1t9374679u6tts20ba5n5@4ax.com>

On 25 Aug 2004 14:56:06 -0700, xah at xahlee.org (Xah Lee) wrote:

>
> Unixism
>

"Isms", in my opinion, are not good.  A person should not believe in
an "ism".  He should believe in himself.
											Ferris Bueller


-- 
for email reply remove "/" from address


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 28 04:45:25 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 10:45:25 +0200
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xzn4gwgea.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7a1o.1a5d2q410jsn2kN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xisb4xnh5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7c1a.tfdm14p3hclcN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xd61benm9.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj82n3.1ylkr3nierngmN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7x4qmnvgcu.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<7xvff3u0za.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <1gj85gi.ghiv3b1f8fhv7N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:

> Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> writes:
> > > Side question, does module zipfile already have the code to allow
> > > reading such signed files?  
> > 
> > I think jar files are just zip files containing an extra file (called
> > "manifest") that has signatures in it.  So you can import from a jar
> > as if it were a zip.
> 
> But to add to that, if module zipfile is going to eventually expect
> jar files to be signed, the first patch needed is that if it doesn't
> have code to actually check the signatures, it should refuse to load
> jar files.

Presumably that would be an optional argument on the ZipFile constructor
specifying what to do about signatures -- defaulting to 'ignore' for
backwards compatibility, I guess, but possibly 'strict' or 'optional' or
something.

> 
> I guess I better check into what Java does about this.  It's been a
> while since I've used Java, but I seem to remember that signing is not
> mandatory.  

OK, but it might make for a nice optional feature anyway.


Alex


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 19 07:52:38 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:52:38 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed2040819034652e5089f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1829.1092785390.5135.python-list@python.org>	<65adnQrUKILiC7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>	<mailman.1834.1092791633.5135.python-list@python.org>	<m2vffgd6pu.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>	<mailman.1858.1092832530.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Michael.J.Fromberger-6AF702.10114718082004@localhost>	<mailman.1891.1092854353.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Michael.J.Fromberger-FF646E.17492318082004@localhost>	<mailman.1909.1092869465.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Michael.J.Fromberger-F6FD2B.21140718082004@localhost>	<cg1vp4$vgd$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040819034652e5089f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cg24a4$vgd$3@sea.gmane.org>

Anthony Baxter wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 06:35:18 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>Unless of course you want a method to be private/semi-private.  How do
>>you feel about the way we can create/manipulate lists and dictionaries
>>using special (magical) syntax?  Why is that different (acceptable)?
> 
> 
> Look, name-mangling is horrid, and I don't think anyone's defending it. But
> at the same time, "name mangling is there" is not an argument for extending
> the horror to a whole new level. 
> 
> Name mangling only occurs when you create a method with two leading
> underscores, and no trailing ones. Your proposal would hit _every_ _single_
> 'def'. It's nasty, it's unpythonic, and there's approximately _zero_ chance of
> it ever going into the language. Having said that, it's perfectly feasible to do
> it with a metaclass, and if you want to use it in your code, please, feel free.
> 
> Anthony

You didn't follow that one with a smiley either... :-)




From sholden at holdenweb.com  Mon Aug 30 20:12:37 2004
From: sholden at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 20:12:37 -0400
Subject: Dynamic languages
In-Reply-To: <278de0e.0408271349.26762174@posting.google.com>
References: <278de0e.0408271349.26762174@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <4133C275.5010200@holdenweb.com>

Neuruss wrote:

> I've been reading an article published in E-Week entitled "Microsoft
> Lures Open-Source Programmer", which contains a definition for dynamic
> languages as follows:
> 
> "Dynamic programming languages enable programs to change their
> structure as they run."
> 
> I wonder if this definition is correct. 
> Can we define dynamic languages this way?
> 
> http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1636906,00.asp

Well, look at the source - it's journalism, and it's not meant to be 
strictly accurate, merely sufficiently informative for the 
mostly-uninformed.

I don't imagine e-Week would be interested in printing a retraction 
should you find agreement on a definition in this group (which I suspect 
is rather unlikely).

regards
  Steve


From steve551979 at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 14 00:29:55 2004
From: steve551979 at hotmail.com (Steve)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 21:29:55 -0700
Subject: reading shell output in parallel
Message-ID: <e3805b94.0408132029.3da41729@posting.google.com>

Hi,

I'm pretty new to python.  I am trying to write a simple application
that can read the stdout output from a command in linux.  I've tried
using x = commands.getstatusoutput() but this only gives back the
output in x after finished executing.  I would like to read the
contents as it is being shown on the screen and then send parts of
this info over a simple client/server setup.  I have the client/server
part set up already.

Can anyone suggest a simple way to do this?  

Thanks for your help, I appreciate it.

Steve


From moma at example.net  Sat Aug 14 15:29:22 2004
From: moma at example.net (moma)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 21:29:22 +0200
Subject: Practical examples 
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1656.1092498793.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1656.1092498793.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <zItTc.846$WW4.12174@news4.e.nsc.no>

Bigbowser wrote:
> hi all, 
> 
> I'm new to python, and have read through
> http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/thinkCSpy/ , and now I'm
> looking for some simple programs to have a read
> through and other more in-depth tutorials to have a
> look at.
> 
> Regards,
> Bigbowser
> 


http://www.python.org/doc/current/tut/tut.html

-> http://www.python-eggs.org/links.html

http://wxpython.org   (GUI programs)


Google for "python and (examples or samples)"

// moma
    http://www.futuredesktop.org/how2burn.html#mirrors



From dontreply at caramail.com  Wed Aug 25 14:58:55 2004
From: dontreply at caramail.com (Cyrille Lavigne)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 11:58:55 -0700
Subject: Am I on the right path
In-Reply-To: <10ipj908b7p2099@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <cginhf$5ff@odak26.prod.google.com>

Are you trying to make a virus, worm or other spambot?
___
Cyrille Lavigne



From alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 29 19:52:29 2004
From: alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali)
Date: 29 Aug 2004 16:52:29 -0700
Subject: about presicion
References: <JN6dnW6HuNiU06zcRVn-pA@powergate.ca>
	<20040829041630.28913.00001771@mb-m26.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8f17f4bc.0408291552.67e3553e@posting.google.com>

So the decimal module is in 2.4 but not 2.3? Also I am not geting the
2.4 version because it seems that it is still in alpha.


From mark.hellewell at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 08:17:53 2004
From: mark.hellewell at gmail.com (mark hellewell)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:17:53 +0100
Subject: module functions list
In-Reply-To: <cghu3v$afp$02$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <cghu3v$afp$02$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <d3fd636604082505177c32a85@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

You could use a list comprehension coupled with a filter:

functionList = [function for function in dir(objectName) \
    if callable(getattr(objectName,function))]

mark

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:45:11 +0200, Diez B. Roggisch <deetsnospam at web.de> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> this strikes me as a pretty basic question, but google didn't help, so I'm
> asking it here:
> 
> How do I get a list of functions defined in a module in the module itself?
> Like this:
> 
> --- module functions.py
> def foo():
>     return 1
> 
> def bar():
>     return 1
> 
> def all_functions():
>     return <some magic code that yields [foo, bar]>
> 
> ---
> 
> The application for this is that I want a bunch of predefined functions for
> a small expression interpreter of mine to be collected in one module and
> get them all without an explicit "registration" process.
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> --
> Regards,
> 
> Diez B. Roggisch
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From bokr at oz.net  Tue Aug 31 17:36:09 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 21:36:09 GMT
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>	<e69d3ed2040	<HBF.20040830aznn@
	<ch1qf3$hvr$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<mailman.2670.1093959504.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ch2r09$9mk$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:25:43 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:

>Paul Morrow wrote:
>> 
>> But why speculate.  Let's see if this is really going to be unclear in 
>> practice.  Ask someone who has never seen Python before which are the 
>> local variables in the following def.
>> 
>>    def circumference(diameter):
>>       """Calculate the diameter of a circle."""
>>       __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'
>>       __version__ = '0.1'
>>       pi = 3.14
>>       return pi * diameter
>> 
>> 
>
>And while you're at it, ask them which lines get executed at function 
>definition time, and which get executed when the function is called.
>
IMO you will have better luck promoting your functionality if you make
your proposed magic syntactically distinct using something other than underscores,
which are just name characters in any legal name that matches [a-zA-Z_][a-zA-Z0-9_]*

I think your magic becomes more interesting if we separate the two issues of
referring to attributes of the current object and doing it at def-time as opposed
to normal execution time (i.e., call-time for function body code), and get some
orthogonal general primitives going ;-)

To make things simple, let's say '$' means the current object, and let's say that
we use '..' in various ways to indicate execution or evaluation at def-time. E.g.,
prefixed to an assignment '=' it would mean do the binding (and evaluation of the
whole right hand side) at def-time. Thus your example becomes

      def circumference(diameter):
         """Calculate the diameter of a circle."""
         $.author ..= 'Paul Morrow'
         $.version ..= '0.1'
         pi = 3.14
         return pi * diameter

But notice that the assignment of pi is a wasteful repeated action for every call.
If instead if we wrote (additionally illustrating constant folding effect):
         pi ..= 3.14    # or __import__('math').pi for better accuracy ;-)
         mask7 ..= 2**7-1 # net binding as if mask7=127

the effect would be a def-time pre-binding of pi and mask7, visible locally as if
      def circumference(diameter, pi=3.14, mask7=2**7-1):
         # etc
but without using the default arg hack. Of course, a default local arg name binding is
refreshed to the original rhs at every call, so even if you set pi=0.0 it will appear
as 3.14 next time. Unlike if you used $.pi ..= 3.14 and then set $.pi=0.0 -- that would
be preset once and rebindings would persist. $.xxx would also provide good opportunity
for optimizing access, and the $ attribute name space would be a handy substitute for
a mutable closure object named something other than '$'.

BTW, another interesting thing would be if the function class were modified so that it would
recognize descriptors when attributes of its instances. This would make assignments of
properties sticky unless they had a self-deleting method.
E.g.,
         def foo(): $.prop ..= property(lambda self: 'hi from %s.prop'%self.__name__)

would mean foo.prop would return 'hi from foo.prop' and foo.prop = 123 would raise an
exception. Or the function class could be made subclassable.

BTW, an expression should also be able to have a def-time-evaluated term, without the rest
being def-time, e.g.,
    def area(r): return ..(__import__('math').pi)*r*r

Note also what you could do with a mutable when you don't need the default arg hack:

    def pow10(x):
        cache ..={}
        try: return cache[x]
        except KeyError: return cache.setdefault(x, 10**x)

In classes, if there is a classvar ..= something, the resulting code
for the class definition should theoretically not have the assignment
as byte codes when the class body executes, but the binding should be
visible as-if. I don't know if there's an efficient way to do that.

Seems like it would have to be pre-bound in the class dict (that gets
passed to a metaclass if there is one), but I guess a fresh copy would
be needed. So that would wind up way more expensive than just a plain
class-def-time assignment. Hm, probably easiest just not to allow it.

Inside methods, of course, ..=  would be fine. Method def-times are when
the class body executes (unless they are later added, in which case the
..= applies wherever the function/method was defined and its def executed.

Too many ideas in one post?
Ok, enough lunch fun.

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From ville at spammers.com  Sun Aug 22 12:27:59 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 19:27:59 +0300
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WE
	DONE?
References: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<t5idnRg0lMA7B7XcRVn-qA@comcast.com>
	<ifchi0hqmhpag5umuukest5v4f2e73hjud@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <du7r7pzgmsw.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Arthur" == Arthur  <ajsiegel at optonline.com> writes:

    Arthur> It seems ironic to me that in a group devoted to an
    Arthur> appreciation of Python, and its advocacy - it is often
    Arthur> those who reject the notion that the language has the
    Arthur> kinds of glaring weaknesses that require some fundamental
    Arthur> change ot it, that form the opposition to an
    Arthur> "establishment" that has become convinced quite otherwise.

If you don't want improvements to the language, don't download the new
version. Keep on writing the code in the old style, and run foreign
code through a preprocessor that e.g. converts decorators to the old
non-syntax style.

If you really want a stagnant, non-evolving language, there are many
to choose from. I guess Python could also be forked to a special
ZombiePython edition, where heresy like a+=4 and list comprehensions
are unheard of.

    Arthur> I sometimes wish those folks were more candid about its
    Arthur> deficiencies before I started my study of it back in 1.5.2
    Arthur> days.

If Python was still like 1.5.2, 90% of the current community would be
running Ruby (assuming it would have evolved while Python had
stagnated).

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From jepler at unpythonic.net  Wed Aug  4 21:19:59 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 20:19:59 -0500
Subject: bsddb
In-Reply-To: <1091668087.41118877a493a@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
References: <41110FDB.9080307@mail.usyd.edu.au> <411185C7.2020705@bitglue.com>
	<1091668087.41118877a493a@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <20040805011959.GA31600@unpythonic.net>

The bsddb module is in the Python source tree.  It's called
Modules/bsddbmodule.c.

Copying a .lib or .dll file from a Windows machine doesn't have a chance
of working (for reasons I'm sure you understand).  If it wasn't built by
whoever packaged this distribution for CE, you'll need a CE development
environment, the bsddb library, and the the Python source tree.

Probably very few people would be able to advise you in how to set it up.
So, best of luck.

Jeff
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From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 22:26:37 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:26:37 +1000
Subject: J2 0-2-6 is available
In-Reply-To: <loom.20040825T035757-314@post.gmane.org>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E52@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
	<mailman.2310.1093386985.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<RIRWc.6401$D7.5685@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
	<XoednXx_JtNAcbbcRVn-pw@comcast.com>
	<loom.20040825T035757-314@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082419264db4290f@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 01:59:02 +0000 (UTC), Steven Bethard
<steven.bethard at gmail.com> wrote:
> Actually, there's an interesting argument that the "with" for decorators and
> the "with" above can be thought of in similar terms:

Not similar enough to justify re-using the keyword, in my opinion. Python's
done really well in not using the same keyword to mean different things in
different contexts.


From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Aug 12 05:17:15 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:17:15 +0200
Subject: decorator with keyword
Message-ID: <cffcir$q5p$02$1@news.t-online.com>

I'm sure they have been mentioned somewhere but here are some more
advantages of a decorator keyword (I use "transform"):

- The docstring can be moved to the top of the decorator suite.
- Simple attributes that don't affect the function's operation directly can
  be written in the "natural" name = value form.
- Though I expect them to be rare like they are in classes today, statements
  like if __debug__: decorateForDebugging would be possible.
          
A docstring and a single decorator - the common case:

transform:
    """  Factory for new decorator syntaxes.
         
         Keeps all proposals in a list and will recombine 
         them at random if called without a spec. """
   staticmethod
def makeDecoratorSyntax(spec=None):
    raise NotImplementedException()

The same with a pie:

@staticmethod
def makeDecoratorSyntax(spec=None):
    """  Factory for new decorator syntaxes.
         
         Keeps all proposals in a list and will recombine 
         them at random if called without a spec. """
    raise NotImplementedException()

I'd say no clear winner here. Now a heavily decorated function:

transform:
    """This method blah, blah.

    It supports the following arguments:
    - longArgumentOne -- a string giving ...
    - longArgumentTwo -- a number giving ...

    blah, blah.

    """
    author = "BDFL"
    status = "experimental"
    grammar = "'@' dotted_name [ '(' [arglist] ')' ]"
    staticmethod 
def longMethodNameForEffect(longArgumentOne=None,
                            longArgumentTwo=42):
    if longArgumentOne is None:
        longArgumentOne = setDefault(longArgumentTwo)
    for line in longArgumentOne:
        if not isBogus(line):
            print line

The same with pies:

@funcattrs(author="BDFL", status="experimental",
    grammar="'@' dotted_name [ '(' [arglist] ')' ]")
@staticmethod 
def longMethodNameForEffect(longArgumentOne=None,
                            longArgumentTwo=42):
    """This method blah, blah.

    It supports the following arguments:
    - longArgumentOne -- a string giving ...
    - longArgumentTwo -- a number giving ...

    blah, blah.

    """
    if longArgumentOne is None:
        longArgumentOne = setDefault(longArgumentTwo)
    for line in longArgumentOne:
        if not isBogus(line):
            print line

A long docstring can indeed tear apart signature and implementation.

For the sake of completeness, a plain old function:

def filter(cond, seq):
    """filter(function or None, sequence) -> list, tuple, or string

    Return those items of sequence for which function(item) is true.  If
    function is None, return the items that are true.  If sequence is a
    tuple or string, return the same type, else return a list."""

    if cond is None:
        cond = bool
    return [item for item in seq if cond(item)]

transform:
    """filter(function or None, sequence) -> list, tuple, or string

    Return those items of sequence for which function(item) is true.  If
    function is None, return the items that are true.  If sequence is a
    tuple or string, return the same type, else return a list."""
def filter(cond, seq):
    if cond is None:
        cond = bool
    return [item for item in seq if cond(item)]

"transform" looks a bit pathetic for a docstring, but otherwise I'd say the
grouping might even be slighly clearer. Note how the function signature is
duplicated in the docstring taken from 2.3's filter() - that helps a lot
for long decoration suites.

The decoration suite would generate a list of (name, value) tuples which are
applied to the function like so

trafos = [("__doc__", "This method..."), ("author", "BDFL"), ..., (None,
staticmethod)]
trafos.reverse()
for name, value in trafos:
    if name:
        setattr(func, name, value)
    else:
        func = value(func)

I think I would even prefer something like the above over the current
classdict passed to metaclasses, i. e. ordering information and "unnamed
attributes" could be useful in classes, too.

Peter



From psXdaXsilva at esotericaX.ptX  Fri Aug 20 21:03:15 2004
From: psXdaXsilva at esotericaX.ptX (Paulo da Silva)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 02:03:15 +0100
Subject: "Socket" files?
In-Reply-To: <4126824a$0$566$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>
References: <1093035812.83612@jubilee.esoterica.pt>
	<mailman.2080.1093039543.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4126824a$0$566$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <1093050493.502706@jubilee.esoterica.pt>

Irmen de Jong wrote:
> Marcos Dione wrote:
> 
...

> 
> mkfifo creates fifo nodes, not "socket"-type files.
> I think Unix domain sockets are what the OP means...
> Which are created by using the AF_UNIX socket type:
> 
> from socket import *
> sock=socket(AF_UNIX,SOCK_STREAM)
> sock.bind("/tmp/mysocket")
...
This seems more logical. Besides there is also a "file" type
"fifo" where I was using mkfifo.

I'll give it a try. Unfortunately I began to upgrade my Gentoo
Linux and I am busy now.

Thank you.


From indigo at bitglue.com  Tue Aug 17 14:48:03 2004
From: indigo at bitglue.com (Phil Frost)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:48:03 -0400
Subject: read input file a line as a list in python
In-Reply-To: <20040817184032.C3A411589B@net.tamu.edu>
References: <20040817184032.C3A411589B@net.tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <20040817184803.GB31097@unununium.org>

pydoc string.split
pydoc file
pydoc sre

On Tue, Aug 17, 2004 at 01:40:32PM -0500, Yong Wang wrote:
> Hi, All:
>     I need to read a input file as soucre to process data. Ideally
> if I can read a line from input file as a list (coloumn separate by
> white space), reorganize field in a line. Does python has this kind of 
> command ? 
>    for example, I read a line has:
>    "IP  MAC Date..." as a line from input file, How  can I only get MAC ?
>     Thanks,
> 
>     Yong


From davidf at sjsoft.com  Fri Aug  6 05:53:29 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 11:53:29 +0200
Subject: Decorator keyword
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1237.1091757081.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <d11dcfba.0408051617.7b4dfcc5@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1237.1091757081.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cevkeq$1s2$2@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> On 5 Aug 2004 17:17:39 -0700, Steven Bethard <steven.bethard at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>I was just going to let this go because I thought it had been shut
>>down, but as it seems to have been reopened, I'd love to see something
>>like:
>>
>>with classmethod
>>with returns(int)
>>def func(*args, **kwds):
>>    return 1
> 
> 
> "with" is a non-starter - there's already other plans to use with for other
> things, at some distant point. Also, if we're to have a new keyword, it
> should be _much_ more obvious than 'with'.

Any pointers to info on other plans for with?
suggestions: declare

declare classmethod
declare returns(int)
def func(*args, **kwds):
     return 1

Other ideas would be "decorate", but this doesn't really seem to make 
sense (perhaps suggesting that decorators isn't the best name for them 
:-)) or "wrap" (because they literally wrap the function, but again that 
doesn't seem intuitive.


David


From po-yung.liu at pandora.be  Mon Aug 16 21:05:41 2004
From: po-yung.liu at pandora.be (Vent d'Est - East Wind)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 01:05:41 GMT
Subject: Python / scheme implement
In-Reply-To: <cfrkiv$1eti$1@agate.berkeley.edu>
References: <8kcUc.216223$pC2.10693727@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<cfrkiv$1eti$1@agate.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <FRcUc.216234$AW1.10653747@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

Daniel Yoo wrote:
> Vent d'Est - East Wind <po-yung.liu at pandora.be> wrote:
> : Can somebody tell me what s exactly the difference beetween scheme and 
> : python languages
> 
> : i m thiking to learn one of them but i m not sure wich one
> 
> : somebody told me python is better and have much library
> : somebody told me scheme is much smarter and have nice structure
> 
> Hello!
> 
> 
> What programming language experience do you already have?
> 

beginner i like script-fu and python-fu in gimp but it s not the only 
soft to do i m think to write a network gui soft
i have some problem with scheme on my debian

  Running the PLT installer...
./bin/mzscheme: relocation error: ./bin/mzscheme: symbol 
__libc_stack_end, version GLIBC_2.1 not defined in file ld-linux.so.2 
with link time reference
Error: PLT installer failed.

i installed one on my windows and work fine but i dont want to stay to 
long on windows because too buggy too unstable and to virus
and i begin learn linux it s quite cool



> 
> If you're looking for Scheme learning resources, you may want to look
> at the PLT web site:
> 
>     http://www.plt-scheme.org/

yeah i saw it thankx
> 
> In particular, the Scheme folks have written a few books for learning
> the language; the link above has an online version of "How to Design
> Programs", which is an excellent book.  Another great book whose
> implementation language is Scheme is "The Structure And Interpretation
> of Computer Programs":
> 
>     http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/
> 
> 
i see some free ebook in html format but seems difficult
i think to begin with these book if i do scheme Little Schemer and 
Seasonned Scheme from Mit press
unfortunatly still not free edition so i will surely buy on amazon.com



> 
> On the Python side, you may want to look at:
> 
>     http://www.python.org/topics/learn/
> 
> If you are a beginner to programming, visit:
> 
>     http://www.python.org/topics/learn/non-prog.html
> 
> which includes links to introductory programming tutorials.
> 
> 
> 
> : i also see a project about a scheme/python implementation
> : here is the url
> : http://plt-spy.sourceforge.net/home.html
> : i m not sure what s really but seems cool if someone know more about it 
> :  or have some concrete exemple  it can be more understable
> 
> If you are interested in the other direction, I have a weak Scheme
> interpreter that's written in Python:
> 
>     http://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~dyoo/python/pyscheme/
> 
> It's not perfect (and frankly, is a little outdated!), but it's a
> proof-of-concept that one language can model the other.
> 
your soft seems very intersting  but i m too beginner for understand it 
good in fact but in future can be cool


> 
> Personally, I like both languages, so my advice would be to look at
> them both.  (But perhaps not at the same time...  *grin*)
> 
it s also why i cant choice ok i choice to learn them both if not same 
times wich ones first ??


> 
> Good luck to you!


THANKXX for your precious advis i m gratefull to your hint


From amk at amk.ca  Tue Aug  3 10:09:50 2004
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 09:09:50 -0500
Subject: advice for perl expert wanting to learn python
References: <slrncguga2.fcp.mordor@fly.srk.fer.hr>
Message-ID: <ItOdnSxzHaszAZLcRVn-hw@speakeasy.net>

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 07:39:46 +0000 (UTC), 
	Zeljko Vrba <mo.dor at fly.srk.fer.hr> wrote:
> What's the easiest way of learning python knowing perl? Is there somewhere
> a 'how-to' cookbook with parallel examples of frequent idioms in perl and
> python?

Jak Kirman wrote one around 1996.  I've just put a copy in the Python wiki at
http://www.python.org/moin/PerlPhrasebook .

--amk


From fumanchu at amor.org  Wed Aug 25 01:58:29 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 22:58:29 -0700
Subject: J2 hard-line on "using"
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E67@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Paul Moore wrote:
> ...I *can* defend an argument that the proposal must
> take a stance on the keyword proposed. The existence of people (me,
> as an example :-)) whose vote would be changed by the choice of a
> keyword implies that not taking a stance leaves those people with no
> basis for making their decision.

As I see it, there are two camps to whom we need to be "fair" in this:

1) Those who would reject the syntax if it used an ugly word, and
2) Those who would've preferred Guido to pick an alternative keyword
rather than reject the whole proposal, when it's technically trivial to
change.

Group #2 is why I was taking a "soft stand" on the keyword issue (and
I'm it's leading advocate). In addition, when I wrote the first draft
there wasn't much of a consensus over acceptable keyword(s)--there is
more of one now for "using". But honestly, I can't find a heuristic for
selecting one group to disappoint over the other.

So I'm going to pay attention to pressure from another quarter to
resolve this. I left a lot of things open from the beginning, in order
to let Guido have more freedom. He's explained to me that that isn't a
good idea. So I'm making the proposal fit the existing implementation
more closely. This means the following changes:

1) I took out the phrase in the intro about "separating concerns", and
"partial change is better than none". Guido's a smart cookie, and can
decide to separate them if he so chooses.

2) I struck the paragraph at the end of Argument III (keyword choice)
completely, where it talked about the keyword choice being "less
important", an "independent choice" and "easy to change".

3) I changed "recommend keywords" to "recommend a keyword" throughout.
This matches the phrasing of the other arguments, where we "recommend a
suite", for example.


As I said, these are due to Guido's leanings, not anyone else's. But
they tie in nicely; the upshot for Group #1 is that the stance on
keyword choice is now much more hard-line.

Paul, does that settle your issue with the keywords?


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 11 11:38:06 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:38:06 -0400
Subject: Rather than decorators, how about sections?
Message-ID: <cfdegs$5oo$1@sea.gmane.org>

I like many am not wild about the <at> operator.  I also don't think 
that the decorator syntax should be so directly attached to the method, 
since what we're trying to do is to say something about the 
*relationship between* a method and a class (e.g. "method m is a 
staticmethod of class C").

So if we are going to extend the Python grammar to support this sort of 
thing (which I believe is a good idea), my preference would be to 
introduce named sections within a class definition, such as...

     class Foo(object):
         staticmethods:
             def baz(a,b):
                 print "I'm a static method."
             def bez(c,d):
                 print "I'm a static method too."

         classmethods:
             def biz(klass):
                 print "I'm a class method."


         def __init__(self):
             print "We all know what I am."




From roy at panix.com  Sun Aug  8 10:46:38 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 10:46:38 -0400
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar,
	but for what exactly? (decorator libraries).
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
	<mailman.1352.1091953503.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-0D45FB.09322108082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1359.1091973019.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-032D22.10191908082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1360.1091975279.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-B29ABA.10463808082004@reader1.panix.com>

In article <mailman.1360.1091975279.5135.python-list at python.org>,
 Andrew Durdin <adurdin at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 10:19:19 -0400, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> > 
> > The key question is whether the decorator mechanism would allow such a
> > thing?  All of the examples I've seen have the decorator defined right
> > before it's used, and having a simple name.  I'm guessing that the real
> > syntax is @<callable>, and that any expression that evaluations to a
> > callable object is kosher after the "@"?
> 
> There was some discussion about this on python-dev, and the BDFL's
> conclusion was that arbitrary expressions were not allowed, but only
> dotted names (with optional parentheses), i.e.:
> 
> @decorator
> @module_or_object.decorator
> @func_returning_decorator(args)
> @module_or_object.func_returning_decorator(args)
> 
> (With presumably multiple dotted levels allowed, e.g. module.object.decorator)
> 
> See http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/ref/function.html for the
> grammar definition.

Wow, I'm glad I asked.  That answer is quite surprising, and somewhat 
disconcerting.  Lot's of special cases going on here, which is bad.

BTW, I don't understand one of the examples in the grammar.  It says:

>  If there are multiple decorators, they are applied in reverse order. For 
>  example, the following code:
> 
> @f1
> @f2
> def func(): pass
> 
>  is equivalent to:
> 
> def func(): pass
> func = f2(f1(func))

I don't see what that's described as "reverse order".  To my eye, 
they're applied in the order they're specified.  First you apply f1, 
then you apply f2.  The code above is the same as:

func = f1 (func)
func = f2 (func)

Reverse order to me would imply:

func = f1(f2(func))

-or-

func = f2 (func)
func = f1 (func)

i.e. you apply the last one first, as if you had pushed the decorators 
onto a stack and processed them by popping the stack.

I'm not arguing that the semantics should be changed, but that using the 
phrase "reverse order" to describe the semantics is confusing.


From ronaldoussoren at mac.com  Thu Aug  5 15:48:09 2004
From: ronaldoussoren at mac.com (Ronald Oussoren)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 21:48:09 +0200
Subject: Decorator syntax (was Re: PEP 318 - PyFIT comments)
In-Reply-To: <m3y8ku1yt4.fsf@tanelorn.bandersnatch.org>
References: <10h24oace15n97a@news.supernews.com>
	<du7zn5a1zxp.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>
	<m3y8ku1yt4.fsf@tanelorn.bandersnatch.org>
Message-ID: <60FC5412-E718-11D8-89DE-000D93AD379E@mac.com>


On 4-aug-04, at 21:35, Nick Vargish wrote:

> Ville Vainio <ville at spammers.com> writes:
>
>> This syntax is out there with backticks and print>>.
>
> I agree.
>
> I just don't know where else to voice my opinion on this matter, but I
> absolutely hate the new decorator syntax. Sorry, I just had to get
> that off my chest.

Why do you dislike it?

Ronald



From jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl  Fri Aug 20 14:53:10 2004
From: jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl (Jarek Zgoda)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:53:10 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3064b51d.0408201047.40a9e9d8@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cg5ham$3a1$4@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>

beliavsky at aol.com <beliavsky at aol.com> pisze:

>> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
>> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
>> about....
> 
> Related question -- at what age can Python be taught to a bright, motivated child?

My daughter is 3 months old and I can be authoritative -- it's too
early. Although she's bright and motivated, of course. ;)

-- 
Jarek Zgoda
http://jpa.berlios.de/


From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Aug 12 16:11:15 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:11:15 +0200
Subject: drop into the interpreter
In-Reply-To: <MoPSc.848$PG2.811334@twister.tampabay.rr.com>
References: <MoPSc.848$PG2.811334@twister.tampabay.rr.com>
Message-ID: <411bceda$0$169$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

Hoang Do wrote:
> is there a facility to inspect the run-time of a python script?
> Essentially, it would execute a script to a set specific point and then drop
> into the interpreter.  Something like a "Stop" or "Break"?

Not exactly that, but code.InteractiveConsole comes *very* close.

Regards,
Martin


From grante at visi.com  Tue Aug 10 17:44:33 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 21:44:33 GMT
Subject: measuring 1/100th seconds, what function?
References: <pan.2004.08.10.21.16.01.728029@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <411941c1$0$8080$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-10, Jonas K?lker <jonaskoelker at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I'm sorry for asking about such a triviality, but hey, if I
> can't get it by RTFM, TFM is buggy ;)

Remember to submit a patch when you figure out how to fix the
bug.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  .. One FISHWICH
                                  at               coming up!!
                               visi.com            


From narshe at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 14:37:15 2004
From: narshe at gmail.com (Josh Close)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:37:15 -0500
Subject: DB-API 2.0 question
Message-ID: <4a0cafe2040805113741dc6b8d@mail.gmail.com>

I'm using sybase and get this error when running two inserts in a row.

Process 88 generated fatal exception c0000005
EXCEPTION_ACCESS_VIOLATION. SQL Server is terminating this process.

All I'm doing is

conn = connect(host, user, pass, db)
cursor = conn.cursor()
cursor.execute(update query here)
cursor.execute(update query here)

Do I need to put a commit() in there or something? I guess I'm not
really familiar with how DB-API 2.0 works. I would think upon a second
execute, the first would be committed already.

-Josh


From richie at entrian.com  Thu Aug 26 04:29:27 2004
From: richie at entrian.com (Richie Hindle)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:29:27 +0100
Subject: using windows defaults for executing/examining files
In-Reply-To: <cgilt0$4b7$1@news-int2.gatech.edu>
References: <cgijsq$38a$1@news-int2.gatech.edu>
	<cgikd2$bnb$02$1@news.t-online.com>
	<cgilt0$4b7$1@news-int2.gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <0l7ri0titul13msvf1r7u18150sn1976lj@4ax.com>


[Micah]
> Using wxPython, is there any way to get the icon associated with a file?  I
> want to be able to display the icon, then when it's double clicked, it
> executes the file (using os.startfile )

Yes, wxMimeTypesManager.  In the wxPython demo:

  wxPython Overview / More Windows/Controls / MimeTypesManager.

-- 
Richie Hindle
richie at entrian.com



From tdelaney at avaya.com  Tue Aug 17 03:15:06 2004
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy))
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 17:15:06 +1000
Subject: Why I love python.
Message-ID: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01D58A3A@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

Nick Patavalis wrote:

> On 2004-08-17, Paul Rubin <> wrote:
>> 
>> Compilers for languages like Lisp and Smaltalk have dealt with this
>> for decades.  They can either generate code that switches on the type
>> tags, or have dispatch tables in the objects that point to code for
>> operations like "+", or take advice or declarations from the
>> programmer about the arg types, among other possibilities.  Any of
>> these approaches generates code that runs much faster than
>> interpreted code. 
>> 
> 
> Yes, I know. Something like this was what I was thinking about. I
> would really love to see this technology brought to Python, or at
> least a discussion as to what additions would be required in the
> *language* in order for similar technologies to be easily applicable
> to future Pythonic environments.

http://www.python.org/sigs/types-sig/ (retired)

Tim Delaney


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Thu Aug 26 21:54:23 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 18:54:23 -0700
Subject: tarfile's tar.extractfile() file-like object incompatible with
	pickle.load()?
References: <3e6d6c21.0408261043.264c3a2d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1093572562.971353@news.commspeed.net>


"Matt Doucleff" <mattduke at ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message
news:3e6d6c21.0408261043.264c3a2d at posting.google.com...
> Hi everyone!  I must be doing something wrong here :)  I have a
> tarball that contains a single file whose contents are a pickled
> object.  I would like to unpickle the object directly from the tarball
> using the file-like object provided by extractfile().  Attempts to do
> this result in EOFError.  However if I first extract to a temporary
> file, then unpickle from there, it works.  The below code reproduces
> the problem (on my machine at least).  I'm running Python 2.3.4,
> manually installed on Debian Woody (original python removed).  Thanks!
>
> This sample code creates (and then removes) files in the tmp directory
> and in the current working directory.
>
> # demonstrates extractfile/unpickle failure (bug?)
>
> # pickle a dict to a temp file
> # create tar file, add temp file to it, close tar file
> # open tar file for reading
> # obtain file-like object for pickled file using extractfile()
> # attempt to unpickle dict from file-like object
> # fails with EOFError exception
>
> import tarfile
> import pickle
> import tempfile
> import os
>
> if __name__ == '__main__':
>     try:
>         hashtopickle = { 'a' : 1, 'b' : 2 }
>
>         # pickle to temp file
>         (fd, tmpfilename) = tempfile.mkstemp()
>         tmpfile = os.fdopen(fd, 'w')
>         pickle.dump(hashtopickle, tmpfile)
>         tmpfile.close()
>
>         # create tar; add temp file
>         tar = tarfile.open('tarpickle.tar', 'w')
>         tar.add(tmpfilename, 'pickledhash')
>         tar.close()
>
>         # remove temp file
>         os.remove(tmpfilename)
>
>         # open tarfile for reading, get filelike
>         tar = tarfile.open('tarpickle.tar', 'r')
>         filelike = tar.extractfile('pickledhash')
>
>         # fails
>         hashcopy = pickle.load(filelike)
>
>     finally:
>         # cleanup
>         os.remove('tarpickle.tar')

Maby you should,

import StringIO

 hashcopy = pickle.load(StringIO.StringIO(filelike))

but im not sure,

Tom




From kowald at molgen.mpg.de  Sun Aug 15 05:30:27 2004
From: kowald at molgen.mpg.de (kowald at molgen.mpg.de)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 11:30:27 +0200
Subject: Tkinter buttons with image ?
Message-ID: <1092562227.411f2d339b7e2@imp.molgen.mpg.de>


Hi everybody,

I'm just getting into Tkinter and try to create a button that displays an image
instead of text. I do something like: 

>tmp = PhotoImage(file='start.gif')
>buttonStart = Button(frameWb,image=tmp,command=root.quit)

The button now displays a blank (grey) area of the size of the image, but as I
said, it is blank :-(. 

Any idea what I'm doing wrong ?
I'm using Python2.3

Many thanks,

             Axel




From tzot at sil-tec.gr  Sat Aug 21 14:32:56 2004
From: tzot at sil-tec.gr (Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:32:56 +0300
Subject: decorator J4 - any objections?
References: <cab22418.0408201006.16f163b2@posting.google.com>
	<H5ydnQFIZezZH7vcRVn-iQ@comcast.com>
	<7o3di0pt7o7e6cu3q3cbkls3g5asnn9n3u@4ax.com>
	<7x4qmx735u.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <u55fi0lmioi1vqiffhid3tknn92n9nhh0k@4ax.com>

On 20 Aug 2004 17:20:13 -0700, rumours say that Paul Rubin
<http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> might have written:

>Christos "TZOTZIOY" Georgiou <tzot at sil-tec.gr> writes:
>> Why type decorators as a dictionary if you are not going to produce a
>> dictionary?  Cause if you produce a dictionary, the order of the
>> decorators is no longer guaranteed.
>
>Does that matter?

Try the following in 2.4a2:

>>> from test.test_decorators import memoize
>>> class A:
    @memoize
    @staticmethod
    def add1(a,b):
        return a+b
    @staticmethod
    @memoize
    def add2(a,b):
        return a+b

>>> A.add1(1,2)
>>> A.add2(1,2)
-- 
TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best,
"Tssss!" --Brad Pitt as Achilles in unprecedented Ancient Greek


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Tue Aug  3 18:28:55 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay Brar)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 08:28:55 +1000
Subject: Crypto.PublicKey.RSA.error: Plaintext too large
In-Reply-To: <HZmdndW9gsV8L5LcRVn-rg@powergate.ca>
References: <mailman.1094.1091546280.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HZmdndW9gsV8L5LcRVn-rg@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <411011A7.8020301@mail.usyd.edu.au>

Peter Hansen wrote:

> Ajay Brar wrote:
>
>> I am getting an error - Crypto.PublicKey.RSA.error: Plaintext too 
>> large - when verifying the signature of a document.
>> What i am doing is - the document and the signature are downloaded 
>> off the net, my verify script then connects to a server and obtains a 
>> public key. It then uses the public key to verify the signature.
>> The whole thing works fine when i do the same thing in the 
>> interactive interpreter. Its only when i download the files and 
>> obtain the public key from the server and then verify, that i get the 
>> above error.
>>
>> any suggesstions...ideas???
>
>
> Carriage Return/Line Feed problems?  Or trailing newline problems?

thats what i am going to investigate now. But even if there were 
trailing newline or carriage return characters, shouldn't the verify 
return false instead of giving the error.
cheers

>
> -Peter



-- 
Ajay Brar
CS Honours 2004
Smart Internet Technology Research Group

http://www.it.usyd.edu.au/~abrar1



From geoff at variosoft.com  Tue Aug 10 17:56:53 2004
From: geoff at variosoft.com (Geoff Caplan)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 22:56:53 +0100
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
In-Reply-To: <Xns9541788BCBD0EPaCmAnRDLM@212.27.42.70>
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
	<mailman.1417.1092083399.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Xns9541788BCBD0EPaCmAnRDLM@212.27.42.70>
Message-ID: <121223110195.20040810225653@variosoft.com>

Hi folks,

FP> Geoff Caplan <geoff at variosoft.com> said :

>> Check out VisualWx.

<snip>

FP> Out of curiosity, how did you come across it ? This sort of topic pops up 
FP> every month or so on this group, and I'd never seen it mentioned before, 
FP> although it seems the project has been going on for a while already...

That's the wonder of Google!

------------------ 
Geoff Caplan
Vario Software Ltd
(+44) 121-515 1154 



From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Mon Aug 30 16:59:59 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 22:59:59 +0200
Subject: Size of a remote URL
References: <ch03r1$5h9@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <ch04gr$tlc$01$1@news.t-online.com>

First of all: post working code, not some snipplet that clearly isn't
capable of running due to syntactic and semantic errors.

This is what I made of your code:

from urllib2 import *
linklisttype = ["http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~harnad/Temp/Ariadne-RAE.doc"] *
4

file_sizes = []
for y in linklisttype:
    temp = urlopen(y)
    print temp
    temp2 = temp.info()
    print temp2
    temp3 = temp2.getheader("Content-Length")
    print temp3
    file_sizes.append(temp3)

print file_sizes

This is the result:

632832
<addinfourl at 1079834668 whose fp = <socket._fileobject object at
0x401f35dc>>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 20:57:49 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.27 (Unix)  (Red-Hat/Linux) mod_ssl/2.8.12 OpenSSL/0.9.6b
DAV/1.0.3 PHP/4.3.2 mod_perl/1.26
Last-Modified: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 15:19:42 GMT
ETag: "f10f630-9a800-3ea2ba8e"
Accept-Ranges: bytes
Content-Length: 632832
Connection: close
Content-Type: application/msword

632832

<snip>

['632832', '632832', '632832', '632832']

Works perfect.

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Sun Aug 22 14:07:51 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 20:07:51 +0200
Subject: Regular expression guaranteed to fail
References: <yyrjacwqdrlk.fsf@pc156.maths.bris.ac.uk>
	<cg4p0p$6v7$1@news-reader1.wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040822jyb6@bombur.uio.no>

Eric Brunel wrote:

> I also looked for a never-matching re just a few days ago and ended up
> with "^(?!$)$". It's certainly not more "standard" than yours, but I
> find it a wee tad more readable (for a regular expression, I mean...):

I think e.g. r'\Zx' and r'x\A' are more readable.  In particular the
latter, but perhaps that causes Python to locate every 'x' in the string
and then check if the string starts at the next character...

-- 
Hallvard


From http  Fri Aug 27 17:47:18 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 14:47:18 -0700
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xzn4gwgea.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7a1o.1a5d2q410jsn2kN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7xisb4xnh5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:
> I know of no reason to forbid support for such "signing", no.  If you
> want to offer a patch to zipimport to let it support whatever signing,
> encryption, or other devilry appeals to you, this is definitely the
> right moment if you hope to see it happen in Python 2.4.

I think the simplest is to just have zipimport understand jar files
and their signatures.  There's enough supporting infrastructure needed
that getting it in 2.4 is probably asking a bit much, though.

> If you mean patching zipimport to _forbid_ importing from any zipfile
> whatsoever, including a plain vanilla one, I think it's too late for
> THAT for Python 2.4 

If signing is supported, then there has to be a way to reject imports
whose signatures don't verify.  It could be a runtime option or
something, I guess.  How does zipimport work anyway?  I don't see it
in the library doc index for 2.3.


From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 14 01:58:09 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 00:58:09 -0500
Subject: reading shell output in parallel
In-Reply-To: <e3805b94.0408132029.3da41729@posting.google.com>
References: <e3805b94.0408132029.3da41729@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <gRhTc.3094$bJ2.20586@news1.mts.net>

Steve wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm pretty new to python.  I am trying to write a simple application
> that can read the stdout output from a command in linux.  I've tried
> using x = commands.getstatusoutput() but this only gives back the
> output in x after finished executing.  I would like to read the
> contents as it is being shown on the screen and then send parts of
> this info over a simple client/server setup.  I have the client/server
> part set up already.
> 
> Can anyone suggest a simple way to do this?  
> 
> Thanks for your help, I appreciate it.
> 
> Steve

One last thought before my zzzz.  For you, you would probably want 
something like:

import popen2

cmd_stream = popen2.Popen3(cmd, 1)
while (cmd_stream.poll() == 1):
     for line in cmd_stream.childerr.readlines():
         #process

for line in cmd_stream.childerr.read_lines():
     #clean up remaining lines not process already


To do it in parallel.  I'd be interested to know if the above will 
actually work ;)  At any rate it'll get you started.


From ben at benlast.com  Mon Aug 16 15:06:06 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:06:06 +0100
Subject: Flython?
In-Reply-To: <cfqp5g$a94$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPMEODCDAA.ben@benlast.com>

> From: python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org
> [mailto:python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org]On Behalf Of Mike
> Rovner
> OTOH, Flash bytecode is proprientary and may change "without
> notice", SVG is
> an open standard. Client machines spped is also tend to increase.
Not denying the open nature of SVG, but the Flash bytecode format is
effectively fixed by the huge installed base of browsers that have the Flash
controls that shipped with earlier versions of IE.  Not all of them have
upgraded by any means (I'm told by a Flash-authoring friend of mine).  Plus
the use of older Flash content on sites that haven't upgraded has forced
backwards compatibility on all recent updates to Flash.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programme of Python chat :)

b



From peufeu at free.fr  Mon Aug 23 06:26:17 2004
From: peufeu at free.fr (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Pierre-Fr=E9d=E9ric_Caillaud?=)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:26:17 +0200
Subject: html templates
References: <mailman.1998.1092968486.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cncbi0paabnc80f179piacb3kn2dn1kblr@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <opsc6kl3kv1v4ijd@musicbox>


	I tried Cheetah and found it to be a bit slow. Maybe it has too many  
features. The template language is great, though.

	For speed, I'd recommend mod_python + psyco

> Ajay:
>> i am looking for a framework to create a fast dynamic website. between
>> using Cheetah and HTMLTemplate which would you recommend?
>
> I've used Cheetah and it's great. I have no experience with HTMLTemplate
> though.
>
>> also quixote offers a session management API? how secure is this session
>> management? is it just a cookie on the client side?
>
> Feel lucky:
> http://www.google.com/search?q=quixote+session+management
>



From eppstein at ics.uci.edu  Thu Aug  5 14:45:15 2004
From: eppstein at ics.uci.edu (David Eppstein)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 11:45:15 -0700
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<opsb9g3hjudgjose@mail.yahoo.it>
	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051213180.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1203.1091724074.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051258000.10473-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<eppstein-15F2C0.10352205082004@news.service.uci.edu>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051353150.11711-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <eppstein-DB7D72.11451505082004@news.service.uci.edu>

In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051353150.11711-100000 at ccc6.wpi.edu>,
 Christopher T King <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote:

> On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, David Eppstein wrote:
> 
> > If this is an actual possibility, there's nothing preventing you from 
> > wrapping a decorated def inside a try-except block.
> 
> And then being forced to duplicate the function definition.  The way
> around this is, of course, to decorate manually, but then your decorators
> are segmented (some at the top of the function, some at the bottom).

Let me get this straight: you're envisioning a situation in which you 
want to decorate a function, the decorator might fail, and if it does 
you want to do something else (perhaps including not decorating it at 
all), but with the same function body?

If so, that's easy:

def my_robust_decorator(func):
    try:
        return decorator_that_might_fail(func)
    except:
        return something_else

@my_robust_decorator
def func(args...):
   ....


So what's the problem?

-- 
David Eppstein
Computer Science Dept., Univ. of California, Irvine
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/


From richardlee2061 at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 16 03:13:43 2004
From: richardlee2061 at yahoo.com (Steve Perry)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 00:13:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: reconstruct list and dictionary  from file
In-Reply-To: <4120599A.3030203@zeomega.com>
Message-ID: <20040816071343.47983.qmail@web53702.mail.yahoo.com>

Thanks for the reply. I noticed the execfile method, but unfortunately,
the file format is predetermined.

Any soultions? - thanks!

Steve

> Steve Perry wrote:
> 
> >I have a serialized list and dictionary stored in a file, with the
> >following format:
> >
> >mydata:
> >   color ["red" "green" "blue"]
> >   origin [0.0 13.2 9.2]
> >   datasource1 {server:"server1.domain" username:"client"
> >password:"secret"}
> >
> >  
> >
> Is the above format the only way you want to store the serialized
> list? 
> I ask because (and in case
> you aren't already aware of the 'execfile' method), if you can store 
> 'mydata' in the form of legal Python expressions,
> you can use the 'execfile' method to  create live objects out of the 
> data-structures stored in the list.
> 
> Regards,
> Satchit,
> 



	
		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 


From jnc at ecs.soton.ac.uk  Wed Aug 11 08:56:06 2004
From: jnc at ecs.soton.ac.uk (John Carter)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:56:06 +0100
Subject: remaining decorator syntax options
References: <d11dcfba.0408101133.4943f06b@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <p35kh0t6et2u7udmlmi5p13j4917nfo00l@4ax.com>


>*** List notation
>
>Assuming a pre-def, non-indented decorator, here are the remaining
>list notations:
>
>(1)
><indicator> dec1
><indicator> dec2
><indicator> dec3
>
>(2)
><indicator> [dec1, dec2, dec3]
>
>(3)
><indicator> dec1, dec2, dec3
>
>I believe that version 3 was vetoed because it makes it too hard to
>break lists of decorators across lines.  GvR's preference is
>definitely for 1, but that may be influenced by his decision for the
>indicator.  I have a feeling that how long the indicator is directly
>affects which of (1) or (2) is preferred.  Compare:
>
>@dec1
>@dec2
>@dec3
>
>vs.
>
>@[dec1, dec2, dec3]
>
>and
>
>using dec1
>using dec2
>using dec3
>
>vs.
>
>using [dec1, dec2, dec3]
>
If one must have a new keyword, i.e. usin, then how about following
the syntax of the rest of python's control structures.

using:
    dec1
    dec2
    dec3
def func():
    pass

An alternative syntax I thought of, which dosnt use a new key word was

def func() with [dec1, dec2, dec3]:
    pass

'with' has the same sort of association feeling as 'using'

This is probably ruled out of court as being after the fnction name.
It does have the merit of generating a syntax error in 2.3

John Carter


From elainejackson7355 at home.com  Sat Aug 14 23:03:55 2004
From: elainejackson7355 at home.com (Elaine Jackson)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 03:03:55 GMT
Subject: Practical examples 
References: <mailman.1656.1092498793.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <voATc.109042$gE.3715@pd7tw3no>

I've been teaching myself python as well, and everything I've written that I
consider useful and/or instructive can be downloaded from my webpage at
http://www.geocities.com/sean_mcilroy.html. Take a peek if you like, and feel
free to ask questions if you have any.

Peace


"Bigbowser" <mov_21h at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1656.1092498793.5135.python-list at python.org...
| hi all,
|
| I'm new to python, and have read through
| http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/thinkCSpy/ , and now I'm
| looking for some simple programs to have a read
| through and other more in-depth tutorials to have a
| look at.
|
| Regards,
| Bigbowser
|
| __________________________________________________
| Do You Yahoo!?
| Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
| http://mail.yahoo.com




From webraviteja at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 25 03:01:20 2004
From: webraviteja at yahoo.com (Ravi Teja Bhupatiraju)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 00:01:20 -0700
Subject: Begginers questions on different distributions of py
References: <cgga5m$v1n$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <b74e43f1.0408242301.49601f30@posting.google.com>

"Player" <asif at go-away-spammer.com> wrote in message news:<cgga5m$v1n$1 at newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Hello all
> 
>  Decided to try and teach myself Python again for my 1st language, after
> having a look at perl again and a few others and finally deciding that if I
> was ever going to fully teach myself a language it would be Python that
> would be the one I could adapt to the quickest and easiest.  = Basically
> meaning the syntax seems to really settle well in my brain, more so than any
> of the other languages :)
> 
> Anyway first things first, I bought The Python Cookbook for a RW reference
> and something python related to read in the rw and bounce ideas from.
> 
> Then I cam to wanting a download of the language, and I had the choice of
> two distros, Activestates ActivePython and the Python websites original
> Python distribution.
> 
> My question is this really, what is the python websites original Python
> distribution missing that ActiveStates has.
> And also vice versa - seen as how the Activestates distribution is lagging
> behind the python websites distribution by a release or two.
> ActivePython = ActivePython-2.3.2-232-win32-ix86.msi size = 16,687KB
> Python webiste distribution = Python-2.3.4.exe size = 9,658 KB
> 
> So what's missing out of the Python distro that is in Activestates distro?
> And vice versa the other way?
> :)
> 
> Thanks in advance
> M.B

You should be OK with either. Personally I prefer the ActiveState's
distribution. Active Python = Python + win32all + slightly more
documentation.

My previous reason for using ActivePython was that it had docs in HTML
help which was easier to search on. If I recall correctly, the
standard distribution now has the docs in HTML help too. I also prefer
Pythonwin (included in win32all) to IDLE and like it set as my default
Python editor (though I end up using SciTE for most part). As you can
see, these are all minor preferences and you should be fine with
either. There is nothing in ActivePython that you cannot install or
get for free later.


From DesertLinux at netscape.net  Wed Aug 18 15:48:57 2004
From: DesertLinux at netscape.net (Byron)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:48:57 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <JoOUc.6206$3O3.4318@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>

28 years old.  I have been using Python for one year.  Mostly work with 
VB6, but now have a new favorite.

Byron
---

Lucas Raab wrote:
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....
> 
> 


From adonisv at DELETETHISTEXTearthlink.net  Tue Aug 24 19:22:27 2004
From: adonisv at DELETETHISTEXTearthlink.net (Adonis)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:22:27 GMT
Subject: Inline Conditionals?
References: <mailman.2307.1093385983.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <T4QWc.11126$2L3.9389@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>

"Joshua Ginsberg" <joshg at brainstorminternet.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.2307.1093385983.5135.python-list at python.org...
> Is there any plan to include inline conditionals in Python? For example:
>
> def isNegative(x):
> return x < 0 ? True : False
>
> Thanks!
>
> -jag
>
> -- 
> Joshua Ginsberg <joshg at brainstorminternet.net>
> Brainstorm Internet Network Operations
>

How about something like:

>>> def iif(condition, true=True, false=False):
...     if condition:
...             return true
...     return false
...
>>> iif('foo' == 'bar', 'w00t', 'l33t')
'l33t'
>>> iif('bar' == 'bar', 'w00t', 'l33t')
'w00t'
>>> iif('bar' == 'bar')
True
>>> iif('foo' == 'bar')
False
>>>

Hope this helps.

Adonis




From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug  6 15:49:49 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 15:49:49 -0400
Subject: Killing children
In-Reply-To: <87hdrgvzr4.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
References: <87smb0w4ln.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
	<xu2dneMe0OnSWY7cRVn-hA@powergate.ca>
	<87hdrgvzr4.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
Message-ID: <rOydnctnDvFDfY7cRVn-gg@powergate.ca>

Laura Conrad wrote:
>>>>>>"Peter" == Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> writes:
> 
> 
>     Peter> on Win32'''
>     Peter>          import win32api
> 
>     Peter> It requires win32api, and I don't know how that all will work with
>     Peter> cygwin (which I don't use).  
> 
> win32api doesn't seem to be there on cygwin.  

Nor on regular Python, until you download it.  It's in a separate
package, formerly called win32all, now called pywin32...

-Peter


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 04:43:55 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 18:43:55 +1000
Subject: Python milestone releases
In-Reply-To: <4113406D.1@v.loewis.de>
References: <pan.2004.08.05.22.55.55.192128@rumblefish.org>
	<4113406D.1@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408060143638eefb0@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 10:25:17 +0200, "Martin v. L?wis"
<martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:
> The Python Business Forum once tried to attack the problem
> by planning to release a "Python-in-a-tie" release. This
> release would be maintained essentially forever, and they
> wanted PythonLabs to commit that this release is not
> superceded by another release for atleast a year. Python
> 2.2 was chosen as the basis, and indeed, it lived for 18
> months without a successor. Today, 2.2 is not maintained
> anymore by the "usual" maintainers, which have moved towards
> 2.3 and 2.4. Nobody has taken over maintenance of 2.2,
> from which I conclude there is really no need for ongoing
> maintenance of old releases.

My approach is that I'm happy to manage releases like so:

Python 2.x
Python 2.x.1
Python 2.x.2
....
Python 2.(x+1)
Python 2.x.n -- one last release of the old branch
Python 2.(x+1).1
....

That is, only one branch "under maintenance" at a time. I thought 
about maintaining 2.2 for longer, but really could see no reason to
do so. It increases the workload of committers, who now might have
to backport to two separate branches as well as the trunk.

Having said that, if someone else wants to step forward and continue
to maintain 2.3 past 2.3.5 (which is the last release of 2.3 I plan to do),
they're more than welcome to do so.


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug  9 09:50:25 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 09:50:25 -0400
Subject: Exceptions as a Control Structure
In-Reply-To: <41177b65$0$17857$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
References: <411775aa$0$17867$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<dOadnX1nRauy5YrcRVn-gw@powergate.ca>
	<41177b65$0$17857$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <i_CdnQb2VbW_HIrcRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>

Olivier Parisy wrote:

> Peter Hansen wrote:
>> Exceptions are also used by some as a mechanism for
>> returning information from subroutines, though it's
>> very likely the information will still be considered
>> "exceptional" in some way (think of it as an out-of-band
>> mechanism for returning special info).
> 
> Do you have some example of this in the standard library ?

It's easy to check for yourself, you have the source. ;-)

I searched for "(Exception" in the lib/*.py files, since
this code is likely to occur when someone subclasses the
top-level exception class.

There's an example similar to what I was describing in
inspect.py, using an EndOfBlock exception.  The Queue
module has Full and Empty exceptions that are a good
example.  By far the most occurrences of custom
exceptions are to define specialized ones denoting
error conditions, however.  I suspect the usage I
described is more common outside the standard library,
in part because code where it would be useful is more
likely to occur in higher level code.

-Peter


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 11:43:51 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:43:51 -0400
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
In-Reply-To: <klk1i05lshkrqs0s3o9cjcf5j9gbdmi85f@4ax.com>
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<56cfb0e3.0408142004.511a8a8e@posting.google.com>
	<5hbvh0hnngn8sotqkgav3o1mvs61n039e5@4ax.com>
	<LIqdndjJz9MWob3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<klk1i05lshkrqs0s3o9cjcf5j9gbdmi85f@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <l4OdnW0FkbilS73cRVn-uA@powergate.ca>

Richard Hanson wrote:

> [Re Python's indentation -- "Neat!" or "Yuck!"]
> 
> For the record, my first reaction to *braces* years ago, was:
> "Yuck!"

That was my reaction as well, but my sister really needed
them as her teeth weren't straight at all.

-Peter


From fumanchu at amor.org  Sun Aug 29 19:58:40 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:58:40 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E92@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Arthur wrote:
> Against.
> 
> With some commitment.
> 
> I have not read the J2 psper...

Let me know when you have and I'll add your name to the list.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Wed Aug 18 22:52:47 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 02:52:47 GMT
Subject: get last two in a length of unknown length?
References: <cg1494$lvr$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3CUUc.794$v86.759@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"M. Clift" <noone at here.com> wrote in message
news:cg1494$lvr$1 at news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Hi All,
>
> I have a list of varying length. Would someone know the way to get the
last
> two values for this? I can see how this is done with a list that I know
the
> length of, but not one thats generated by user input.
>
> Thanks for any help
>
Use negative index values to count backwards from the end of a list or
tuple.

x = [ 0, 1, 2, 3, 4]

x[-1] gives 4
x[-2] gives 3
x[-2:] gives [3,4]    <- this is called "slice" notation

You will find *many* more interesting and fun facts in the Python Tutorial.

-- Paul




From cjw at sympatico.ca  Sun Aug 22 11:01:58 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:01:58 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - keyword choice
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.22.02.44.17.804648@jerf.org>
References: <mailman.2136.1093150593.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<pan.2004.08.22.02.44.17.804648@jerf.org>
Message-ID: <Bz2Wc.3450$_H5.31651@news20.bellglobal.com>

Jeremy Bowers wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:51:09 -0700, Robert Brewer wrote:
> 
>>I'd be most interested to hear arguments _against_ "declare", if there
>>are any.
> 
> 
> My first objection would be that decorators aren't "declarations"; that is
> one use but not the only one.
> 
Another is that the word doesn't give a clue as to what is happening.

> The flip side is that I doubt that any one word will ever capture as a
> reasonable verb what they are doing, so I'm not sure this argument is
> meaningful, as it applies equally to all proposals, up to and including
> "decorate". ("Decoration" is the mechanism, but it is not always the
> result.)
> 
> I'd have to say "transform" is probably the best candidate here; while not
> all uses of decorators are transforms (like attaching pieces of metadata),
> it at least brings to mind the correct implementation, which is the
> passing of the method through a function. 
>
> "declare" brings to mind attaching a piece of data to the function or
> making a statement about the function to the compiler, without changing
> the underlying function. Ditto "apply".
> 
> "decorate" brings either nothing to mind, or some vision of the Design
> Pattern which really isn't right.
> 
> "as" seems to imply some sort of syntactic change, and only works AFAICS
> for staticmethod and classmethod. "as: author('Steve')" doesn't make much
> sense.
> 
> To sum up, *all* keywords are insufficient, and I think there are only two
> choices, depending on the goal: "transform" to give a hint about what is
> really happening, or "decorate" on the grounds that there *is* no
> ready-made keyword and it is reasonbly easy to attach whatever Pythonic
> connotations to the word we choose; witness "generators".
> 
> 
> (Apologies if this has been mentioned before; I've been trying to keep up
> but I have failed.)

The overall effect of implementing PEP 318 is transformative rather than 
decorative.  Thus, "transform" is a better choice. It could be argued 
that even "author('Steve')" is a transformation, in that it could well 
amend an existing notation.

Three issues which have not been discussed much are:
     1. the purpose of the docstring in J2 preceding the funcdef.  It it
        to describe the transformers or the function?
     2. the placement of the extra code relative to the funcdef.
        (incidentally, I don't find docstring in the Python grammar)
        It seems to me that the reading flow would be better if it were
        to follow the funcdef, so that the funcbody would become
                 funcbody ::= [[newstuff] body].
     3. whether the PEP 318 processes are to apply to classes as well
        as functions.

Colin W.



From wweston at att.net  Mon Aug  2 15:44:06 2004
From: wweston at att.net (wes weston)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 19:44:06 GMT
Subject: Trimming a string
In-Reply-To: <10gsotqjc2qrl54@news.supernews.com>
References: <10gsmuieo65du5d@news.supernews.com>
	<ektPc.165630$OB3.11201@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
	<10gsotqjc2qrl54@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <aQwPc.373573$Gx4.265244@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>

Double Dumbass on You wrote:
> Do you feel better about yourself for having posted a smug, shithead-type
> answer, troll??
> 
> As a matter of fact, I was in a near fatal car wreck about 7 years ago.
> Suffered some brain damage.  Now, I can't remember minute details such as
> that which I asked.  I have read the python documentation numerous times.
> Sometimes, I just need a simple answer to a simple question, you simple
> cocksucker.
> 
> GO FUCK YOURSELF, it will be time well spent for you.
> 
> "wes weston" <wweston at att.net> wrote in message
> news:ektPc.165630$OB3.11201 at bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> 
>>Double Dumbass on You wrote:
>>
>>>I have a string that is 7 characters and represents file mode in
> 
> UNIX/LINUX
> 
>>>from rpm:
>>>
>>>0100755
>>>
>>>I don't care about the 0100 portion, I am only interested in the file
>>>permissions portion which is 755.  How can I get three characters from
> 
> the
> 
>>>string starting at the right?  ( -OR- strip 4 characters from the
> 
> left? )
> 
>>>
>>DD,
>>
>> >>> x = "0100755"
>> >>> print x[4:]
>>755
>>
>>    Reading the tutorial is really time well spent.
>>wes
>>
> 
> 
> 
DD,
    I didn't mean to offend you; was trying to help.
Here's the tutorial section on slicing where word is "HelpA".
http://www.python.org/doc/2.3.4/tut/node5.html#SECTION005120000000000000000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Strings can be subscripted (indexed); like in C, the first
character of a string has subscript (index) 0. There is no
separate character type; a character is simply a string of
size one. Like in Icon, substrings can be specified with
the slice notation: two indices separated by a colon.

 >>> word[4]
'A'
 >>> word[0:2]
'He'
 >>> word[2:4]
'lp'

Slice indices have useful defaults; an omitted first index
defaults to zero, an omitted second index defaults to the
size of the string being sliced.

 >>> word[:2]    # The first two characters
'He'
 >>> word[2:]    # All but the first two characters
'lpA'



From fred at acme.com  Sat Aug 21 00:42:50 2004
From: fred at acme.com (Fred)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 06:42:50 +0200
Subject: [newbie] Strange behavior of the re module
References: <2ejdi01btug5iskb4ipjpj7eaprd8i7vgm@4ax.com>
	<4126CFCC.8000609@zephyrfalcon.org>
Message-ID: <ohkdi05et02gt0lkkg5hhfa5t7banb7bab@4ax.com>

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:30:04 -0400, Hans Nowak <hans at zephyrfalcon.org>
wrote:
>To use a non-escaping backslash in a string literal, use a double backslash:
>
>   stuff = "\\colortbl\\red0\\n0"
>
>or a raw string:
>
>   stuff = r"\colortbl\red0\n0"

Thx Hans for the prompt answer. I'll have to use the second form since
I can't modify the content of the HTML pages I'm looping through...
but no matter which option I use (either r or R), Python is still not
happy:

---------------------------------------
import re

#NOK
stuff=r"\colortbl\red0\gn0"
#NOK
stuff=R"\colortbl\red0\gn0"

template = "BLA"
template = re.sub('BLA', stuff, template)
---------------------------------------

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "C:\test.py", line 9, in ?
    template = re.sub('BLA', stuff, template)
  File "G:\Python23\lib\sre.py", line 143, in sub
    return _compile(pattern, 0).sub(repl, string, count)
  File "G:\Python23\lib\sre.py", line 257, in _subx
    template = _compile_repl(template, pattern)
  File "G:\Python23\lib\sre.py", line 244, in _compile_repl
    raise error, v # invalid expression
sre_constants.error: bad group name

Maybe the r/R prefix is not available in ActivePython?

Thanks
Fred.


From apardon at forel.vub.ac.be  Thu Aug 19 03:38:11 2004
From: apardon at forel.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 07:38:11 GMT
Subject: Piping stdout to Python callable
References: <bYbUc.24077$nx2.16696@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<slrnci3t3q.k5.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<WZxUc.25125$nx2.16316@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<slrnci61oq.k5.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<mVSUc.27118$nx2.15067@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <slrnci8m73.it.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>

Op 2004-08-19, Edward Diener schreef <eldiener at earthlink.net>:
> Antoon Pardon wrote:
>>
>> Then I fear there is no other solution. As far as I understand, you
>> can't redirect standard output on a per thread basis, (at least not
>> in python.) That means that if you redirect stdout of the A.py module
>> to go into a pipe, the stdout of MyOwnModule.py will go into the
>> same pipe. I don't think you want that.
>
> Just wanted to write that someone else pointed out to me os.popen("python
> A.py") and that did work well as an alternative to using os.system(etc.) .
> Nonetheless thanks for your help. I mentioned this so that you would know
> also know about it yourself if you hadn't encountered it.

I know about popen, but that didn't seem to resolve your concern.
Working with popen will result in launching a second interpreter.
Since one of your mayor concerns about your own solution was
having two interpreters running, I didn't thought popen was a
viable solution.

-- 
Antoon Pardon


From askari at addressNonValide.com  Mon Aug 30 10:56:21 2004
From: askari at addressNonValide.com (Askari)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:56:21 GMT
Subject: Canvas scrolling - scrollBar become "disabled" on change in
	canvas
References: <Xns9552AC6C9E279askariaddressNonVali@207.35.177.135>
	<cgumjb$bnr$1@news-reader3.wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <Xns95556F78A24CDaskariaddressNonVali@207.35.177.135>

Eric Brunel <eric_brunel at despammed.com> wrote in
news:cgumjb$bnr$1 at news-reader3.wanadoo.fr: 

> Askari wrote:
>> Hi,
>>    I do a "perso"widget where have two scrolls (one vertical, one 
>> horizontal) for a canvas.
>> When, the first time, I added widget in the canvas, the scroll
>> self-ajust and when I move scrollbar, the surface's canvas "moved".
> 
> Well... It shouldn't... The only way to make the scrollable area
> larger is by using theCanvas.configure(scrollregion=(x1, y1, x2, y2));
> adding items into the canvas should have no effect at all on it...
> 
>> But when I deleted  
>> (.destroy) this first widgets and that a added other widget, the
>> scrollBar become disabled (ajust for no scroll on the canvas).
>> What/where is the problem?
> 
> Can you please post some (simple) code that shows this behaviour?
> Without a clear idea about what you're doing, it will be quite
> difficult to help you... 
> 
>> I use basic widget (scrollBar, Canvas, Frame, etc.) from library's
>> Tkinter (and python 2.3.4 on WinXp Pro (sp1))
>> 
>> Askari



I try self.cv.config(scrollregion=self.cv.bbox(ALL))  but, not success. But 
I find that when I resize a parent's canvas or when I move the "view" on 
canvas (e.g. the other scrollBar not disabled), the anormal scrollBar 
become normal... 
so, I fix my problem with this lines :
		self.cv.yview('moveto', '1')
		self.cv.yview('moveto', '0')

It's a stupid fix, but it work!  :-)


Sorry, I can't send you some code because it's  minimum (if I remove 
comments) 200 lines... and 100 if I wrap the not important code... 

Askari




From irmen at -nospam-remove-this-xs4all.nl  Fri Aug 20 18:59:18 2004
From: irmen at -nospam-remove-this-xs4all.nl (Irmen de Jong)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:59:18 +0200
Subject: "Socket" files?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2080.1093039543.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <1093035812.83612@jubilee.esoterica.pt>
	<mailman.2080.1093039543.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4126824a$0$566$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>

Marcos Dione wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 20, 2004 at 09:58:43PM +0100, Paulo da Silva wrote:
> 
>>How are those "files" of type "socket", whose name
>>begins with "=", created? How can I create them with
>>python?
> 
> 
>     they don't start w/ =; that's just ls being verbose. try 'ls -1'.
> 
>     you can create them with os.mkfifo. see lib doc, section 6.1.4.

mkfifo creates fifo nodes, not "socket"-type files.
I think Unix domain sockets are what the OP means...
Which are created by using the AF_UNIX socket type:

from socket import *
sock=socket(AF_UNIX,SOCK_STREAM)
sock.bind("/tmp/mysocket")

BTW, my ls lists them in pink, with a '=' at *the end*.
That's on Mandrake 10.

--Irmen



From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug  6 14:48:43 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 14:48:43 -0400
Subject: @decorators
In-Reply-To: <4113c488@nntp.zianet.com>
References: <d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa@posting.google.com>
	<eTMQc.36328$K53.24420@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
	<ufz70gud2.fsf@broadpark.no> <4113c488@nntp.zianet.com>
Message-ID: <3PCdndlfSrERT47cRVn-hw@powergate.ca>

Mark Bottjer wrote:

Mark, would your example still be acceptable to you if someone wrote
it like this?:
> def sillyFunction( a, b, c):
>     """\
>     The silly function does nothing except get "decorated." classmethod
>     determines the form of the first argument (class, object, or
>     other). signature changes the call behavior, asserting the types
>     passed to and returned from the function. Finally, transactional
>     causes boilerplate code to be executed before and after the function
>     body, ensuring that either all changes to database are applied, or
>     none are. Seeing as this function does nothing, this is trivial :).
>     """
>     @classmethod
 >     # PLH 20040806112957: added new decorator here
>     # PLH 20040806130023: also changed last value 
>     @signature( None, a=int, b=float, c=dict)
>     @transactional( database)
>     pass

While I find merit in your idea, it's not entirely fair to discard
the @ syntax because it *can* be written the way you showed, but then
not to perform the same analysis on your own idea.

To be entirely fair, I'm not sure that *any* of the proposed syntaxes
cannot be written in such a way that they get buggered up by intervening
whitespace and comments...  nor should this be a sole reason for
discarding any one.

-Peter


From arambo314 at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 23 19:45:30 2004
From: arambo314 at hotmail.com (Arthur Rambo)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 16:45:30 -0700
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <533e1e03.0408231545.cf59270@posting.google.com>

OK guys.

Now that you've debated at length of the first question addressed by
Neuruss (Python limitations for mainstream acceptance), why not come
back to the other aspects addressed:

- dynamic languages getting closer to static languages in terms of
speed
- the future of Psyco, Pypy, Starkiller, Ironpython and other similar
projects.

What do you think? I'm sure many of us are interested in those issues
(didn't the widely respected Jim Hugunin mainly advertise IronPython
through its relative speed to C Python? Cf. the page title and first
item on http://ironpython.com).

Whatever the reasons for which making Python faster is desirable or
not, it represents a very interesting technical challenge. Do you
think those projects will succeed? Which other techniques do you see
as promising?

Arthur

> It seems there are quite a few projects aimed to improve Python's
> speed and, therefore, eliminate its main limitation for mainstream
> acceptance.
> I just wonder what do you all think?
> Will Python (and dynamic languages in general) be someday close to
> compiled languages speed?
> What will be the future of Psyco, Pypy, Starkiller, Ironpython and all
> the other projects currently on development?


From fumanchu at amor.org  Sat Aug  7 02:07:37 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 23:07:37 -0700
Subject: threads: not locking read-only objects
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022DE6@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Jon Perez wrote:
> Hmmm... here's what's going on.  I have a dictionary of
> logged in users called 'whoison' that's updated in the main
> thread (and only in the main thread) with a:
> 
> whoison['username']="timeoflogin"  # to add someone new
> 
> and
> 
> del whoison['username']  # to remove someone who's logged out
> 
> 
> Do the above count as atomic?

Yes; however, that's not enough in your case. :)

> The worker threads do the following read-only operation:
> 
> for x in whoison:
>    print x,whoison[x]
> 
> Looking at the read-only code though I just realized
> something.... if a dictionary entry in 'whoison' is deleted
> by the main thread while the 'for x in whoison' is executing
> then what would happen?

You get an exception:

>>> import threading
>>> whoison = dict.fromkeys(xrange(100000))
>>> def iterate():
... 	for a in xrange(1000):
... 		for x in whoison:
... 			42
... 	print "Done"
... 	
>>> threading.Thread(None, iterate).start()
>>> del whoison[333]
>>> Exception in thread Thread-11:
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "C:\Python23\lib\threading.py", line 436, in __bootstrap
    self.run()
  File "C:\Python23\lib\threading.py", line 416, in run
    self.__target(*self.__args, **self.__kwargs)
  File "<interactive input>", line 3, in iterate
RuntimeError: dictionary changed size during iteration


> Looks like I'm going to need a lock after all even for the
> read-only operations...?

Yup. Or use some other trick, like:

for k in whoison.keys():
    v = whoison.get(k)
    print k, v

...which iterates over a copy of the keys instead of the keys
themselves. Other, more complicated techniques exist. You'll soon
understand why many gurus declare concurrency to be one of the recurring
"hard problems" of programming. ;)


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 16 06:20:18 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 06:20:18 -0400
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed204081522014bb9c988@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20040814153534.8AC171E4007@bag.python.org>	<D65D4928-EEBF-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>	<mailman.1687.1092584144.5135.python-list@python.org>	<frydnbvSiJeXF4LcRVn-oA@giganews.com>
	<cfo7cg$k7p$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed204081522014bb9c988@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cfq1p1$bde$1@sea.gmane.org>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:43:30 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>Define fragile.  If you mean, easy to break, I don't see it.  There
>>would be only one way to define an instance method: name its first
>>parameter 'self'.  There would be only one way to define a class method:
>>name its first parameter 'klass' or 'cls' (or some other synoynm that we
>>can all vote on).  All other methods would be static methods.
>>
>>How is that fragile?
> 
> 
> Python currently doesn't _care_ about the argument list, and the variable 
> names in it.
> 

One thought is, to preserve backwards compatability, this special 
behavior would only be invoked for subclasses of the new Object class.


> Adding this sort of behaviour is nasty. How, for instance, would you handle
> adding a method to a class at runtime? Do you poke into the newly added 
> method to make sure you get it right? Do you not do this?
> 

Same rules apply.  The Python system would dynamically determine the 
method's type when you add it (at runtime), so you'd need to make sure 
that the first parm name is correct in advance.

> What about for more complex decorators? Remember, staticmethod and
> classmethod are the trivial cases that this feature addresses. How do you
> handle the more complex ones?

The point is that method type declarations are not needed, so decorators 
wouldn't be concerned with this.  Take them off the list of things 
decorators can do.



From daniel at dittmar.net  Tue Aug 10 16:12:27 2004
From: daniel at dittmar.net (Daniel Dittmar)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 22:12:27 +0200
Subject: decorators vs GIL
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408101504070.9982-100000@ccc2.wpi.edu>
References: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>
	<0bidnfbR2_PZOIjcRVn-pA@giganews.com>
	<e69d3ed2040808011667ddee7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.1464.1092156423.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cfb4u4$okp$1@eol.dd.chalmers.se>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408101504070.9982-100000@ccc2.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <cfba8n$1eb$1@news.eusc.inter.net>

Christopher T King wrote:
> The real reason behind the GIL is that the Python interpreter is not
> re-entrant; it keeps internal state in a global structure which must be
> switched out (and stored somewhere) on thread changes.  The real solution
> to this problem is to make the interpreter stateless, thus obviating the
> need for the GIL entirely.  I think this task would be much easier to do
> in Stackless than in CPython, but I may be wrong.

Another reason is reference counting, which must be synchronized.

Daniel


From asqui at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 17 07:09:06 2004
From: asqui at hotmail.com (asqui)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 04:09:06 -0700
Subject: Case sensitivity bug in ConfigParser?
Message-ID: <20568caa.0408170309.33db2d31@posting.google.com>

[Apologies if this posted twice... google groups timed out on the form
POST]

(Assume an instantiated ConfigParser, c, with a loaded file)
>>> c.get("DEFAULT", "foo", False, {"foo": "Bar"})
'Bar'

>>> c.get("DEFAULT", "Foo", False, {"Foo": "Bar"})
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<pyshell#70>", line 1, in ?
    c.get("DEFAULT", "Foo", False, {"Foo": "Bar"})
  File "C:\Python23\lib\ConfigParser.py", line 513, in get
    raise NoOptionError(option, section)
NoOptionError: No option 'foo' in section: 'DEFAULT'


The offending code appears to be as follows (in ConfigParser.py):
    def get(self, section, option):
        opt = self.optionxform(option)
        if section not in self._sections:
            if section != DEFAULTSECT:
                raise NoSectionError(section)
            if opt in self._defaults:
                return self._defaults[opt]
            else:
                raise NoOptionError(option, section)
        elif opt in self._sections[section]:
            return self._sections[section][opt]
        elif opt in self._defaults:
            return self._defaults[opt]
        else:
            raise NoOptionError(option, section)

It uses optionxform on the supplied option, but not on the one in the
defaults dictionary. If you're going to impose a transform then you
have to do it consistently, imho...

>>> c.get("DEFAULT", "Foo", False, {"foo": "Bar"})
'Bar'

The supplied "Foo" gets transformed to "foo" and matches the one in
the defaults dictionary.

Seems a bit counterintuitive to expect that you supply any defaults as
pre-transformed according to your specified optionxform.

I'm not sure if this is also a problem when reading a file, but there
seems to be a related post about this (with no replies!) dating back
to 2000 http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=8suc1f%24mf9%241%40nnrp1.deja.com

I don't have time to look into it now but I'd guess this problem was
resolved in the more obvious location (when reading a file) but
patching of the defaults dictionary case was omitted.


asqui


From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Aug  5 08:45:27 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 14:45:27 +0200
Subject: Scope Problem
References: <cet6eh$tvq$1@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <ceta58$pm8$03$1@news.t-online.com>

Nickolay Kolev wrote:

Python doesn't support tail recursion; your algorithm is not only
inefficient but incorrect. The number of allowed recursion levels is
significantly below the maximum number of list entries.

>>> import sys
>>> sys.setrecursionlimit(10) # reduced for demonstration purposes
>>> def index(seq, value, n=0):
...     try:
...             if seq[n] == value:
...                     return n
...             else:
...                     return index(seq, value, n+1)
...     except IndexError:
...             return -1
...
>>> index(range(5), "a")
-1
>>> index(range(10), "a")
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
  File "<stdin>", line 6, in index
  File "<stdin>", line 6, in index
  File "<stdin>", line 6, in index
  File "<stdin>", line 6, in index
  File "<stdin>", line 6, in index
  File "<stdin>", line 6, in index
  File "<stdin>", line 6, in index
  File "<stdin>", line 6, in index
  File "<stdin>", line 6, in index
RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded

The

def f(value=None):
    if value is None:
        # set real default

idiom is only needed for mutable default values.

> @Irmen
> @Daniel

I see finally someone is embracing the decorator style slated for 2.4 :-)

Peter



From gabriel.cooper at mediapulse.com  Mon Aug 16 10:13:06 2004
From: gabriel.cooper at mediapulse.com (Gabriel Cooper)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:13:06 -0400
Subject: Practical examples
In-Reply-To: <voATc.109042$gE.3715@pd7tw3no>
References: <mailman.1656.1092498793.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<voATc.109042$gE.3715@pd7tw3no>
Message-ID: <4120C0F2.202@mediapulse.com>



Elaine Jackson wrote:

>I've been teaching myself python as well, and everything I've written that I
>consider useful and/or instructive can be downloaded from my webpage at
>http://www.geocities.com/sean_mcilroy.html. Take a peek if you like, and feel
>free to ask questions if you have any.
>  
>
Link should have been:

http://www.geocities.com/sean_mcilroy/

or specifically:

http://www.geocities.com/sean_mcilroy/python.zip


From krm152 at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 25 21:54:36 2004
From: krm152 at yahoo.com (Ken Moore)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 18:54:36 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <20040819231139.D039A1E4003@bag.python.org>
	<mailman.1999.1092969866.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<eyqWc.223375$j62.10948731@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<qVAWc.2328$MR2.9560@news1.mts.net>
	<njemi0hrm3jb1kdc8mhg8krd9a4qu3e894@4ax.com>
	<5cf809e9.0408241126.6e3fdd5b@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <8ecda57b.0408251754.14ed27b9@posting.google.com>

Hi all,
 I'll be 64 8/28 and started life wiring boards for 402/419/407 and
other EAM equipment. Started programming 'real' computers starting
with an IBM 1401 Card system with 4k characters of memory using 1401
SPS (Symbolic Programming System) the assembler of the day. Graduated
to an IBM 360/30 with 3 2311 disk drives and COBOL and learned from
bitter experience why 'alter... goto' should be banished from
existence (I think its been obsoleted in current COBOL versions). Went
on from there to large mainframes and lots of IBM assembler, CICS, and
more COBOL. Dabbled with RPG and FARGO and probably a couple of
languages I've completely forgotten about.  Had a z80 machine custom
built for me in 1977 by ByteShop East in NYC and fooled around with GW
Basic. Discovered C in the early eighties and loved it. Graduated to
RadioShack TRS 80 model III's (it actually had a decent COBOL compiler
which I fooled around with and a great C compiler made by Mix)  and
Atari 800 (anyone remember Atari's Deep Blue C C compiler?)  Dabbled
in Java for awhile when it came out and off and on thru release 1.2.
Fooled around with Perl and totally spurned  Python (indentation for
statement grouping, YUCKKK!). Couple of years later, wanted to do some
GUI's fast, and 'lo and behold'... PYTHON to the rescue. I've been
learning and using it now for about a 1/2 year and love it!
BTW anybody know what SPOOL stands for? I do. Once won a magazine
subscription extension for answering that question...  No, you don't
win anything if you answer correctly :)

Oh well, so much for  reminiscing

peter.schwalm at epost.de (Peter Schwalm) wrote in message news:<5cf809e9.0408241126.6e3fdd5b at posting.google.com>...
> Hi Andrea,
> 
> I'm 50 and have with Cobol, C, C++, Rexx, and others for over 20
> years. My experiences with seasoned programmers were often like yours
> ("make" - what's that?). And to be honest, I myself am not really fit
> in usenet. But like I have always taken the time to study.
> 
> Since 2 1/2 years I work with Python and try to do in Python whatever
> is possible. If things are not possible in Python, the reasons are
> usually political in nature.
> 
> Peter Schwalm


From michele.simionato at gmail.com  Tue Aug 31 08:01:20 2004
From: michele.simionato at gmail.com (Michele Simionato)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 05:01:20 -0700
Subject: txt2xls
Message-ID: <4edc17eb.0408310401.6abf866c@posting.google.com>

In would like to convert very simple text files into .xls
files and I need some help.

Here is the format of a typical file:

# begin table.txt

This should go in the first row,
first column.

This should go in the first row,
second column.

====

This should go in the second row,
first column.

This should go in the second row,
second column.

====

This should go in the third row,
first column.

This should go in the third row,
second column.

# end table.txt

"====" separates different rows, whereas different colums are separated
by an empty line. table.txt should be converted into a table.xls 
file containing a 3x2 table like this:

   ================================     ================================
   This should go in the first row,     This should go in the first row,
   first column.                        second column.
   --------------------------------     --------------------------------
   This should go in the second row,    This should go in the second row,
   first column.                        second column.
   --------------------------------     --------------------------------
   This should go in the third row,     This should go in the third row,
   first column.                        second column.
   ================================     ================================

I use OpenOffice on Linux, but I have no experience at all about the .xls
format, so I would welcome help/pointers and especially snippets of code ;)
TIA,

                  Michele Simionato


From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Sun Aug 22 18:52:50 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 18:52:50 -0400
Subject: python doesn't like my numbers
In-Reply-To: <2osfspFdnjbcU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <2osfspFdnjbcU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <2osm7nFe3t34U1@uni-berlin.de>

paul k wrote:
> is there any way to convince python not to take my (phone)numbers 
> starting with zero as octals?
> 
>  >>> int(088)
>   File "<stdin>", line 1
>     int(088)
>           ^
> SyntaxError: invalid token

Why do they have to start with zeros in your source code?

The fact that you're passing the number through int() makes me guess 
that you're actually talking about input of some kind which you'll pass 
through int(). If that's the case, they will be strings, and the problem 
will go away:

 >>> int('088')
88


From Florian.Lindner at xgm.de  Mon Aug 30 07:11:32 2004
From: Florian.Lindner at xgm.de (Florian Lindner)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:11:32 +0200
Subject: Getting other file permissions
Message-ID: <cgv215$pp4$04$1@news.t-online.com>

Hello,
on a Unix System I want to get the file permissions for other. How to get
this? Is os.stat("file").st_mode the right way? How to interpret the
output?

Thx,
Florian


From jedwardrm at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Aug  2 17:13:58 2004
From: jedwardrm at yahoo.co.uk (Jed R. Mallen)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 14:13:58 -0700
Subject: python tutes on win32
References: <f6e0a56a.0408011144.12bde5ad@posting.google.com>
	<1ZmdnZw7k-WA0ZDcRVn-rg@adelphia.com>
Message-ID: <f6e0a56a.0408021313.776504be@posting.google.com>

"Robert" <catcher at linuxmail.org> wrote in message news:<1ZmdnZw7k-WA0ZDcRVn-rg at adelphia.com>...

> I looked up "tute" in the dictionary. No such word, so I must assume the
> answer is no. I am sure a nice Google search or even a search on the Python
> web site would help you a lot.

My bad.

Sorry, I meant tutorial. I did Google for it but I was looking for a
recommended tutorial as I was just starting up Python.

Thanks anyway.


From jdc at uwo.ca  Thu Aug 12 12:31:14 2004
From: jdc at uwo.ca (Dan Christensen)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:31:14 -0400
Subject: measuring 1/100th seconds, what function?
References: <pan.2004.08.10.21.16.01.728029@yahoo.com>
	<mailman.1475.1092179147.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-601AFB.23231010082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <87657ojp2l.fsf@uwo.ca>

Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> writes:

> Tim Peters <tim.peters at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Note that on a box connected to a network time-correction
>> service, time.time can appear to "run backwards" briefly at
>> unpredictable times.
>
> This will never happen if you're running NTP.  NTP does gradual 
> adjustments to the clock rate to ensure that the system clock is always 
> monotonically increasing.

ntp only works well if your clock rate is very consistent.  On all of
the laptops I've used, I get frequent adjustments:

Aug  6 20:30:45 localhost ntpd[911]: time reset -0.472600 s
Aug  5 22:04:57 localhost ntpd[919]: time reset +0.670974 s
Aug  5 22:34:06 localhost ntpd[919]: time reset +0.884625 s
Aug  5 23:13:54 localhost ntpd[919]: time reset -0.376758 s

I don't see any reason in principle ntp couldn't allow a greater
offset between the local machine and the servers, and use gradual
adjustments in this case.  But it doesn't.

Dan


From greg.lindstrom at novasyshealth.com  Tue Aug 31 11:39:53 2004
From: greg.lindstrom at novasyshealth.com (Greg Lindstrom)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:39:53 -0500
Subject: mySQL access
Message-ID: <026301c48f70$c2eae6a0$054b12ac@D18SYX41>

Hello-

I'd like to connect to a mySQL database from Python 2.3 on Windows XP.  I've
read up on the mySQLdb module, but do not have Microsoft Visual Studio for
the C++ compile part of the exercise.  Am I hosed?  Or is there a way do
this without having to have VS?

Thanks,

--greg

Greg Lindstrom                                         (501) 975-4859
NovaSys Health                  greg.lindstrom at novasyshealth.com

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams"  W.W.



From gumuz at NO_looze_SPAM.net  Fri Aug 13 09:06:17 2004
From: gumuz at NO_looze_SPAM.net (Guyon Morée)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:06:17 +0200
Subject: Flython?
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <411cbcb1$0$3894$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>

You can also write your objects in python and expose them as xml-rpc/soap.
Then use them from flash...



"Peter Hansen" <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message
news:BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ at powergate.ca...
> Just been looking at Flash and ActionScript...
>
> In the vein of Jython, I wonder what it would take to build
> a Flython?  (Lousy name, I know.)  That would take Python
> source, presumably a subset since some things couldn't be supported,
> and compile it into ActionScript bytecode (aka the bytecode compiled
> from ECMAScript source for the Macromedia Flash player environment).
>
> With that, it would be pretty easy to write applications which
> have a Flash front end, but with pretty much all the logic
> on front and back implemented in Python.
>
> There doesn't seem to be any mention of such an idea on
> the web yet.  A search turns up only part of a thread
> where Cameron Laird asked about marrying Flash and Python
> and I replied with a reference to use of Flash in
> Twisted's LivePage...
> (http://groups.google.ca/groups?selm=vpdqlca3vkvp5c%40corp.supernews.com)
>
> -Peter




From cjw at sympatico.ca  Sat Aug  7 22:35:35 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 22:35:35 -0400
Subject: Decorators
In-Reply-To: <roy-1C5AF5.18404707082004@reader1.panix.com>
References: <%A8Rc.50217$Vm1.1280580@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<roy-1C5AF5.18404707082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <RjgRc.50805$Vm1.1363428@news20.bellglobal.com>



Roy Smith wrote:
> "Colin J. Williams" <cjw at sympatico.ca> wrote:
> 
>>It seems desirable that we choose words which are as close as possible 
>>to their everyday usage.
> 
> 
> On the other hand, it's desirable to pick words which have established 
> meanings in computer science too.  The concept of a "decorator" is 
> pretty well established.  The term has been used in GUI frameworks for 
> 10 or 15 years, and more recently has been enshrined in various pattern 
> collections.
I guess that it depends partly on whether the majority of Python users
consider themselves to be computer scientists.

Colin W.



From d-hanst at online.no  Sat Aug 28 05:17:45 2004
From: d-hanst at online.no (Dag Hansteen)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:17:45 +0200
Subject: My IDLE editor wont work!
References: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C7890@escpl.tcp.com.ar>
Message-ID: <009b01c48cdf$e1c92cf0$4e01a8c0@dagan>

RE: My IDLE editor wont work!Hi Facundo!
This is the error I get:

"Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "C:\PYTHON23\lib\site-packages\Pythonwin\pywin\framework\scriptutils.py", line 310, in RunScript
    exec codeObject in __main__.__dict__
  File "C:\Python23\Lib\idlelib\idle.py", line 23, in ?
    idlelib.PyShell.main()
  File "C:\Python23\lib\idlelib\PyShell.py", line 1274, in main
    root = Tk(className="Idle")
  File "C:\Python23\lib\lib-tk\Tkinter.py", line 1564, in __init__
    self.tk = _tkinter.create(screenName, baseName, className)
TclError: Can't find a usable init.tcl in the following directories: 
    {c:\ruby\tcl\lib\tcl8.3} {c:\ruby\tcl\lib\tcl8.3} c:/ruby/tcl/lib/tcl8.4 C:/PYTHON23/lib/tcl8.4 C:/lib/tcl8.4 C:/library

c:/ruby/tcl/lib/tcl8.3/init.tcl: version conflict for package "Tcl": have 8.4, need 8.3
version conflict for package "Tcl": have 8.4, need 8.3
    while executing
"package require -exact Tcl 8.3"
    (file "c:/ruby/tcl/lib/tcl8.3/init.tcl" line 19)
    invoked from within
"source c:/ruby/tcl/lib/tcl8.3/init.tcl"
    ("uplevel" body line 1)
    invoked from within
"uplevel #0 [list source $tclfile]"
c:/ruby/tcl/lib/tcl8.3/init.tcl: version conflict for package "Tcl": have 8.4, need 8.3
version conflict for package "Tcl": have 8.4, need 8.3
    while executing
"package require -exact Tcl 8.3"
    (file "c:/ruby/tcl/lib/tcl8.3/init.tcl" line 19)
    invoked from within
"source c:/ruby/tcl/lib/tcl8.3/init.tcl"
    ("uplevel" body line 1)
    invoked from within
"uplevel #0 [list source $tclfile]"


This probably means that Tcl wasn't installed properly."

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Batista, Facundo 
  To: Python-List (E-mail) 
  Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 10:47 PM
  Subject: RE: My IDLE editor wont work!


  [Dag Hansteen] 

  # hi, I have a problem on my comp - I'm using win2000, and the IDLE editor won't open when I try to execute it. 
  # I tried to uninstall the python versions(yes I had one older installed also) and reinstalled 2.3.4. That doesn't help.

  Execute it from the command line, to see the errors, and tell us. 

  .       Facundo 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  -- 
  http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
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From bokr at oz.net  Sat Aug 28 22:17:59 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 29 Aug 2004 02:17:59 GMT
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgrecn$dgk$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 08:45:20 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
[...]
>
>Cool!  Thanks!  Now I need to ponder why a function's docstring needs a 
>different implementation than a class's docstring (i.e. why not just 
>make it a straigtforward attribute of the function object).
>
Disclaimer: I am just speculating from appearances accessible interactively,
so don't take this as developer's documention of internals. I'm just reading
between the lines, trying to recognize the underlying ideas ;-)

So, depending on your idea of 'straightforward' ISTM docstrings do look like
'straightforward' attributes in the way they behave:

 >>> def func():
 ...     'func docstring'
 ...
 >>> class CNew(object):
 ...     'CNew docstring'
 ...
 >>> class COld:
 ...     'COld docstring'
 ...
 >>> func.__doc__, CNew.__doc__, COld.__doc__
 ('func docstring', 'CNew docstring', 'COld docstring')

But you were wondering about different _implementation_ of
class and function docstrings. But implementation is a layered
thing that evolves, even while surface behavior stays the same.

So your question comes down to how implementation differs for
getting the three __doc__ attributes in the last tuple above.

As far as the language is concerned, writing func.__doc__ is
no different than x.y -- we don't know what func is bound to,
and we don't know whether __doc__ is an object attribute or
a method in the object's class or a method somewhere in the
chain of base classes, or whether func is a class and __doc__
is a class variable, etc. So we have to look into how and when
those differences are discovered and have their effect.

<aside>
Implementation is layered. High level functionality is composed
of primitives. A really nice thing about Python is that so much of
the dynamic primitive infrastructure is accessible and expressible
in python source. Much work has obviously gone into making primitives
that are actually implemented in C behave and be inspectable "as-if"
they were implemented in python. IOW, there is a kind of primitive
abstractions layer that is platform independent and source-representable.

But whatever the representation, it is (IMO) the world of abstract ideas
that is the most important, the world where sets and numbers and mappings
and maybe deities live. That's where we find the real beauty that our
graven source code sometimes distracts from when we forget what's what ;-)

C implementation can make optimized shortcuts to define as-if
behaviour that looks identical to general behavior with various
limitations that when encountered act as-if they were exceptions
of general behaviour.
</aside>

Ok, focusing on x.y, what do we need to find out?
It looks like the __getattribute__ method (or its C behavioural equivalent)
is the key to getting x's y attribute. So where do we find __getattribute__?
Well, it's a method, and methods would be found in x's class dict, and if not there,
it would be looked for in the chain of base classes. But how do we find x's class dict?
x.__class__.__dict__ doesn't work if x happens to be an old style class.
So type(x) serves now as the logical equivalent of x.__class__ :

 >>> for t in map(type, [func, CNew, CNew(), COld, COld()]): print t
 ...
 <type 'function'>
 <type 'type'>
 <class '__main__.CNew'>
 <type 'classobj'>
 <type 'instance'>
 >>> for t in map(lambda o: type(type(o).__dict__), [func, CNew, CNew(), COld, COld()]): print t
 ...
 <type 'dictproxy'>
 <type 'dictproxy'>
 <type 'dictproxy'>
 <type 'dictproxy'>
 <type 'dictproxy'>

In every case we have a dict proxy, that we can now look for attributes in,
so we can look for __getattribute__:

 >>> for t in map(lambda o:type(o).__dict__.get('__getattribute__'),[func,CNew,CNew(),COld,COld()]): print t
 ...
 <slot wrapper '__getattribute__' of 'function' objects>
 <slot wrapper '__getattribute__' of 'type' objects>
 None
 <slot wrapper '__getattribute__' of 'classobj' objects>
 <slot wrapper '__getattribute__' of 'instance' objects>

Kind of interesting. Now if we let the the attribute chase continue for CNew vs CNew():

 >>> type(CNew).__getattribute__
 <slot wrapper '__getattribute__' of 'type' objects>
 >>> type(CNew()).__getattribute__
 <slot wrapper '__getattribute__' of 'object' objects>

IOW, it looks like the None got replaced by object.__getattribute__
found in the base class of class CNew(object) for CNew() (since there
was no override defined in CNew) but for CNew itself, the search started
in type(CNew), so found type.__getattribute__

If we look in a thing's __dict__ we are apparently avoiding the attribute chase,
but if we look via thing.__dict__ we are using the __dict__ attribute to get
the __dict__, so to allow us to see what __dict__ is without attribute processing,
we have to do thing.__dict__['__dict__'] or thing.__dict__.get('__dict__').
We can then look at what kind of thing that is:

 >>> for ob in [func,CNew,CNew(),COld,COld()]:
 ...     print type(ob).__dict__.get('__dict__')
 ...
 <attribute '__dict__' of 'function' objects>
 <attribute '__dict__' of 'type' objects>
 <attribute '__dict__' of 'CNew' objects>
 None
 None

What kinds of things are these?

 >>> for ob in [func,CNew,CNew(),COld,COld()]:
 ...     print type(type(ob).__dict__.get('__dict__'))
 ...
 <type 'getset_descriptor'>
 <type 'getset_descriptor'>
 <type 'getset_descriptor'>
 <type 'NoneType'>
 <type 'NoneType'>

Looks to me like a mechanism to unify access to attributes at a particular
infrastructure level, being used in this case to deal with a bunch of things
that can act like dictionaries, but which might have very different implementations
and limitations. E.g., IWT you could make dictionaries lazily implemented for objects
whose .__dict__'s are almost always empty, and just create them on first need.
Even if they start with standard name content, one could imagine creating a full dict
only on update. But those are optimization games.

Bottom line, comparing implementation of __doc__ in functions and new style classes
to answer your question, they don't seem that different. I.e., both seem to be
implemented via descriptor/property-like things:

 >>> type(func).__dict__['__doc__']
 <member '__doc__' of 'function' objects>
 >>> type(func).__dict__['__doc__'].__get__
 <method-wrapper object at 0x00918890>
 >>> type(func).__dict__['__doc__'].__get__(func)
 'func docstring'

 >>> type(CNew).__dict__['__doc__']
 <attribute '__doc__' of 'type' objects>
 >>> type(CNew).__dict__['__doc__'].__get__
 <method-wrapper object at 0x00918890>
 >>> type(CNew).__dict__['__doc__'].__get__(CNew)
 'CNew docstring'

Note that old style classes and objects don't use a __doc__ descriptor:

 >>> type(COld)
 <type 'classobj'>
 >>> type(type(COld).__dict__['__doc__'])
 <type 'str'>

I.e., the above is the actual doc string of classobj, not a descriptor

 >>> type(COld)
 <type 'classobj'>
 >>> type(COld).__dict__['__doc__']
 'classobj(name, bases, dict)\n\nCreate a class object.  The name must be a string; the second ar
 gument\na tuple of classes, and the third a dictionary.'

(Of course, normally it is not retrieved this way).
vs.

 >>> type(CNew)
 <type 'type'>
 >>> type(CNew).__dict__['__doc__']
 <attribute '__doc__' of 'type' objects>
 >>> type(type(CNew).__dict__['__doc__'])
 <type 'getset_descriptor'>

So there is a difference between func and old-style-class docstring implementations.
Were you using old style classes for your question?

I don't know why I did this...

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From jdc at uwo.ca  Mon Aug  9 12:44:03 2004
From: jdc at uwo.ca (Dan Christensen)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 12:44:03 -0400
Subject: decorators as a special case of an @ operator?
References: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>
	<87llgocrgq.fsf@uwo.ca> <DdSdnQot5MbxAIrcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <87d620cld8.fsf@uwo.ca>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> writes:

> Dan Christensen wrote:
>
>> I wonder what people think of the following crazy idea, which has two
>> parts.
>> 1) Allow anonymous multi-line functions.  For definiteness, I'll use
>>    the following syntax, but lambda or something else could be used
>>    too:
>>    f = def (a,b,c):
>>          d = a*b
>>          return d + c
>
> I think this is identical to the following code, isn't it?
>
>      def f(a, b, c):
>          d = a * b
>          return d + c

Yes.  The anonymity is used below.

> [...]
>> Presto, you have decorators:
>> f = decorator1 @
>>     decorator2 @
>>     def (a,b,c):
>>         d = a*b
>>         return d + c
>> And the function name is at the top, like some people prefer.
>
> I think if we asked them, they would clarify that it is not
> the name *alone* which is important, but the *definition*.

Yes, I also feel that way.  Having the function name first isn't the
real merit of my proposal.  The merit (if there is any!) is that you
get a syntax much like the proposed @decorator syntax as a special
case of changes that feel more pythonesque (at least to me).

- anonymous functions are useful in their own right
- @ is just a new binary operator, which reduces punctuation
  (parentheses)

It also allows a form such as

  f = staticmethod @ def (a,b,c):
      d = a * b
      return d + c
    
which is fairly compact, although a little heavy on the
punctuation.

>> - To avoid trailing backslashes, the parser would have to
>>   automatically continue to the next line when a line ends in @.
>
> Sounds like another special case, as I'm not sure Python does
> this for anything right now except when there are matched
> opening and closing symbols.

That's true.  Is there any reason that python doesn't automatically
continue all incomplete binary operators, allowing

   x = a_very_long_expression +
       another_long_expression

?

----

An alternate proposal for 2):  if the parser finds

  f x

where f is callable, interpret this as f(x).  Then the examples
become

  f = decorator1 \
      decorator2 \
      def (a,b,c):
          d = a*b
          return d + c

and

  f = staticmethod def (a,b,c):
      d = a * b
      return d + c

But I guess this would introduce some ambiguity into the parser.
Right?

Dan


From jepler at unpythonic.net  Mon Aug  2 22:34:47 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 21:34:47 -0500
Subject: file IO
In-Reply-To: <cempg2$d1e$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
References: <cemnlj$cd1$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<cempg2$d1e$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <20040803023447.GB22636@unpythonic.net>

Are you using Windows?  That would mean the answer is almost certainly
"something to do with carriage returns and binary vs text mode".  The
lack of a trailing newline on the last line of your example can also
make for additional trouble (though my tests on unix, with stdio, mmap,
and StringIO didn't ever give me a 4-byte file, windows might give you
the file "a\r\nb" when viewed in binary format, "a\nb" when viewed in
text format)

I doubt that the mmap module's readline knows whether the file was
opened in universal text mode---that's a pure Python invention, while
mmap takes a file descriptor.

On Unix, I don't find that a "while" loop with mmap.readline is any
faster than a "for" loop over a file:

[45426 lines, 409305 bytes]
$ timeit -s "..." "readspeed.read_stdio('/usr/share/dict/words')"
10 loops, best of 3: 34.9 msec per loop
$ timeit -s "..." "readspeed.read_mmap('/usr/share/dict/words')"
10 loops, best of 3: 107 msec per loop

[363416 lines, 3274440 bytes]
$ time python -c "import readspeed; readspeed.read_stdio('biggerfile.txt')"
real 0.372s  user 0.331s  sys 0.031s
$ time python -c "import readspeed; readspeed.read_mmap('biggerfile.txt')"
real 1.080s  user 1.013s  sys 0.021s

[2907328 lines, 26195520 bytes]
$ time python -c "import readspeed; readspeed.read_stdio('biggerfile.txt')"
real 2.603s  user 2.308s  sys 0.157s
$ time python -c "import readspeed; readspeed.read_mmap('biggerfile.txt')"
real 8.514s  user 7.893s  sys 0.153s

I didn't have any "bigger-than-RAM text files" around to test.

Testing "biggerfile.txt" with mode "rU" gives real 3.110s, so there is
some penalty from using universal newlines.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
# readspeed.py
from mmap import mmap, PROT_READ
import itertools, os

def consume(iterable):
    for j in iterable: pass

def read_stdio(filename):
    f = open(filename) # open(filename, "rU") is slightly slower
    consume(f)

def read_mmap(filename):
    f = open(filename)
    fd = f.fileno()
    m = mmap(fd, os.fstat(fd).st_size, prot=PROT_READ)
    while 1:
        if not m.readline(): break
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk  Thu Aug 26 06:29:24 2004
From: michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk (Michael Sparks)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:29:24 +0100
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <cgkeio$spo$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>

Alex Martelli wrote:
...
> I wish we'd use a better keyword than 'using' which would have a
> bazillion other possible and useful future interpretations.  Of the
> possible keywords mentioned on the site, several (by, per, through,
> via) appear better to me, and I'd particularly love the three-letter
> ones as they'd align well with 'def' -- my own preference would be
> 'per'.
> 
> However, I suspect it's too late to submit J2 with anything but
> 'using' and I'd rather have J2 with 'using' than the pie-before-def
> thingy, so, here's my "tactical" FOR vote:-).

It might (or might not) be too late but just as a check I checked
to see if "per" is used by any projects listed in the proposal. (I
was checking Twisted and Zope for "using" so decided to do "per"
as well)

The irony here is that just like "using" the only project that I could
find out of those list on the proposal, Twisted and Zope X3 using "per"
is python itself. Specifically Idle uses it internally as a shorthand
for "percolator".

Changing the patch to work with "per" would be simple, and I don't know
if Guido reads this group (I suspect not?), but for the record "using"
and "per" appear to have the same risk level to existing code - ie very
low. 

"per"'s risk level might be marginally lower because it's only used
in idle's guts, whereas "using" is used in webbrowser's get method
as a sole named parameter. Whilst I can't find anything using the
latter, it's certainly more likely than someone relying on the guts
of a project to remain unchanging.

Best regards,


Michael.
-- 
Michael.Sparks at rd.bbc.co.uk    
British Broadcasting Corporation, Research and Development
Kingswood Warren, Surrey KT20 6NP

This message (and any attachments) may contain personal views
which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.




From lconrad at laymusic.org  Fri Aug  6 15:21:35 2004
From: lconrad at laymusic.org (Laura Conrad)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 15:21:35 -0400
Subject: Killing children
References: <87smb0w4ln.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
	<xu2dneMe0OnSWY7cRVn-hA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <87hdrgvzr4.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>

>>>>> "Peter" == Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> writes:

    Peter> on Win32'''
    Peter>          import win32api

    Peter> It requires win32api, and I don't know how that all will work with
    Peter> cygwin (which I don't use).  

win32api doesn't seem to be there on cygwin.  


-- 
Laura (mailto:lconrad at laymusic.org , http://www.laymusic.org/ )
(617) 661-8097	fax: (501) 641-5011
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139




From grante at visi.com  Sun Aug 15 21:33:58 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 01:33:58 GMT
Subject: Python secure?
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<ZKRTc.3710$bJ2.23892@news1.mts.net>
	<6o75v1-p92.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<412009f1$0$8090$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <41200f06$0$65568$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-16, Grant Edwards <grante at visi.com> wrote:

> Ah.  Nobody said the decompiled code would be redistributed.
> Distributing copies (decompiled or otherwised) is covered by
> copyright law.  Decompiling is not.

I've read up a bit, and I looks like I was wrong.  The mere act
of creating a derived work is an infringement of copyright.
The derived work doesn't have to be distributed for an
infringment to have taken place.  Title 17 says

  ? 106. Exclusive rights in copyrighted works

  Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright
  under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to
  authorize any of the following:

   (1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;

   (2) to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;

The "fair use" provisions for computer programs (?117) do not cover
de-compiling or reverse-engineering.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  PARDON me, am I
                                  at               speaking ENGLISH?
                               visi.com            


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 21:50:30 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:50:30 -0400
Subject: No validation routine for an os.path
In-Reply-To: <S%bUc.24081$nx2.7626@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <S%bUc.24081$nx2.7626@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <UOKdnTNP59f1-bzcRVn-rg@powergate.ca>

Edward Diener wrote:

> Try as I might I can not find a routine in os.path which validates whether
> or not a path is syntactically valid, either as a directory or as a file.
> This is surprising since, although I know this is OS dependent, Python has
> many other classes and functions which will work properly depending on what
> OS they are currently running under. Is there such a path validation routine
> in any of the libraries distributed with Python or in any other 3rd party
> Python libraries ?

I don't really think so, and the last time this sort of thing
was discussed, I believe the conclusion was that it's not
actually possible to do such a thing in all cases anyway,
unless you are willing to actually attempt to create the
file or directory during the validation.

One reason I recall being given is that even on a given OS, different
file systems may support different sets of characters for filenames.
For example, a CDROM might disallow certain characters which the
standard file system allows, or a networked device (e.g. NFS, or
Samba) might allow a wider range of possibilities than the permitted
names on a hard drive.

In the end, this is somewhat like validating email addresses.  Until
you actually try and succeed (or fail) to send the message, you cannot
verify whether an address is "valid" for many definitions of valid.

-Peter


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug  6 11:44:39 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 11:44:39 -0400
Subject: Queue qsize = unreliable?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1277.1091805846.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1277.1091805846.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <zeCdnfT6tL31Oo7cRVn-tg@powergate.ca>

James R. Saker Jr. wrote:

> I see per pydoc that Queue.Queue()'s .qsize is allegedly unreliable:
> 
>      |  qsize(self)
>      |      Return the approximate size of the queue (not reliable!).
> 
> Any thoughts on why this is unreliable (and more curiously, why it would
> be put in there as an unreliable function?) Rather than roll my own
> threaded fifo class, it would seem prudent to use Python's built-in
> Queue but the warning signs on a rather necessary function seem curious.

(Why do you think this function is necessary?  It's probably
rare to really need it, except perhaps during debugging... )

Anyway, the reason it's called "unreliable", though the term
"inaccurate" might be more correct, is because while you are
getting the size of the queue, it might be updated such that
the new size is one or more fewer or larger than the value
that is about to be returned to you.  In effect, the value is
guaranteed accurate only for the precise instant in time, now
passed, that it was determined, but by the time the calling
routine actually sees the value the size could be anything.

Note also the latest docs at docs.python.org, which state the
case a little more clearly.

"""Return the approximate size of the queue. Because of
multithreading semantics, this number is not reliable. """

-Peter


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Thu Aug  5 15:18:37 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 15:18:37 -0400
Subject: Confused about pep 318
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com><mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org><d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com><Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu><mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051249050.10473-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <ceu16f$rso$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Christopher T King" <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051249050.10473-100000 at ccc6.wpi.edu...
> On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Anthony Baxter wrote:
>
> > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/thread.html#45516
> > was over a month earlier.
>
> That thread reaches no consensus,

To me this is evasion.

>Steven Bethard wrote:
>> Wow, this one really feels like it was slipped in while no one was
looking.

You wrote:
>That's because it was.  ...
>There had previously been no public discussions about it.

You (agreeing with Steven) made a false accusation of something like
dastardliness.  Just admit your mistake and move on.

I happen to sympathize with some of you concerns and suggestions, but not
with needless bashing of volunteers.

>other than, in his sole post in the thread, Guido stating
>"I would love to see an implementation of this idea."

Hence, I was not surprised to see it in an alpha as an experimental feature
which might or might not stay.

Terry J. Reedy





From ark at acm.org  Fri Aug 27 11:32:44 2004
From: ark at acm.org (Andrew Koenig)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 15:32:44 GMT
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <wuIXc.258478$OB3.99772@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>

"Kjetil Torgrim Homme" <kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no> wrote in message
news:1r3c28g6o9.fsf at rovereto.ifi.uio.no...

> my suggestion is to allow braces to mark the suites.  Python is still
> strictly enforcing indentation, in fact, in some ways it's stricter
> then before.

The following code is legal today:

    def foo(x):
        print x
    x = 3
    if x == 3:
        {
        foo(x) : 42
        }

Are you proposing to change the meaning of this code?




From ben at transversal.com  Fri Aug 20 04:14:47 2004
From: ben at transversal.com (Ben)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:14:47 +0100
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4125b2f7$0$2408$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk>

My vote:

C1 C1 E1

Note it would have been C1 C1 A but I am voting on _alternatives_ to A.
I think this is what you want?

Ben


From Ian.Sparks at etrials.com  Wed Aug 18 11:28:21 2004
From: Ian.Sparks at etrials.com (Ian Sparks)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:28:21 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
Message-ID: <41A1CBC76FDECC42B67946519C6677A901915286@pippin.int.etrials.com>

> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer??

34. 

22 years a programmer. Sheesh, I should be better at it. 

Actually, python helps me a lot in that regard since it separates the problem from the solution so well. I work in C# also and all that typing obfuscates the problem being solved.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lucas Raab [mailto:pythongnome at hotmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 8:21 AM
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: age of Python programmers
> 
> 
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 


From ruses at users.ch  Sat Aug 21 06:48:46 2004
From: ruses at users.ch (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Elveto=2C_artiste-ing=E9nieur_en_n=E9motech?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?nique=22?=)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:48:46 +0200
Subject: Fate of lambda, Functional Programming in Python...
References: <20040820163629.8DD4F1E401A@bag.python.org>
	<mailman.2064.1093020607.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4127288E.3060101@users.ch>

Chas Emerick wrote:
> In a comment off a post on lambda-the-ultimate, I noticed this little 
> offhand remark:
> 
> '''IIRC GvR is going to kill the various lambda, map,filter & reduce 
> leaving just generator expressions/list comprehension.'''

The real reason is political neutrality. lambda & al revealed to provide just 
too much access to Guido's famed time machine, when python 1.5.2 itself 
manifested blind patriotism after 9/11, eg

 >>> filter(lambda W : W not in 'ILLITERATE','BULLSHIT')

'BUSH'



From news at woody.datatailors.com  Mon Aug  9 11:11:18 2004
From: news at woody.datatailors.com (Peter van Kampen)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 17:11:18 +0200
Subject: Apache web server and CGI
References: <81a41dd.0408090447.7f27a092@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <slrnchf50m.lei.news@woody.datatailors.com>

In article <81a41dd.0408090447.7f27a092 at posting.google.com>, Lad wrote:
> How can I set up Apache web server to use Python for CGI processing( for file *.py).
> Thanks for help
> Lad

I will assume you have cgi working in apache in cgi-bin. I will also assume
that you want to use it on *NIX. You didn't tell and I don't know how to do
it on windows ;-) 

The simplest thing that should work is sth like this:

Create a file: test.py

---------------------------------------
#!/usr/bin/env python

print "Content-Type: text/html"
print
print """
<html>
<head>
<title></title>
</head>
<body>
Hello Lad!
</body>
</html>
"""
----------------------------------------

Now do:

chmod 755 test.py

And then go there with a browser:

lynx http:/localhost/cgi-bin/test.py

Hth,

PterK

-- 
Peter van Kampen
pterk -- at -- datatailors.com


From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Mon Aug  2 10:07:14 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 10:07:14 -0400
Subject: Timing Difference: insert vs. append & reverse
In-Reply-To: <35b736b9.0408020330.53b24ed3@posting.google.com>
References: <35b736b9.0408020330.53b24ed3@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <ut6dncg3B5kM15PcRVn-uA@giganews.com>

John Keeling wrote:

> I tried the test program below. My interest is to examine timing
> differences between insert vs. append & reverse for a list. 

But what you are measuring is the difference between
one particular insert (where the index is 0) and the
combination of two other builtin operators that (in this
particular case) have the same effect.

While your observation makes a good point, in the end
we should pleased not surprised when we find ways to
speed up these specific cases.

Istvan.



From http  Sat Aug 28 04:16:07 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 01:16:07 -0700
Subject: OT: simple compiled languages?
Message-ID: <7xzn4fu188.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

I'm wondering what other languages clpy'ers are familiar with, that
have simple implmentations with compilers.  I'm asking out of general
interest, not for a specific application.  Usually, discussions of
small languages revolve around interpreters so I'm asking specifically
about languages with compilers.

Qualifications:

  - Simple compact implementation, not too many LOC and not too many
    machine resources needed.  Example: Ron Cain's Small-C and its
    descendants.  Tiny CC (www.tinycc.org) is pushing the complexity
    limits for what I have in mind.

  - Real compiler, must generate real machine code (not threaded code or
    byte code or asm macros) that's not too horrible, but needn't make
    serious optimizing attempts.  Compiler should at least in principle
    be retargetable to multiple cpu's.  Load-and-go operation (i.e. no
    external assembler needed) is highly desirable.

  - Real language with datatypes and semantics, not a fancy assembler or
    FORTH.  Static or dynamic typing are both fine.  Fancy parsing is
    not required, e.g. Lisp-like syntax is fine.

  - Preferably self hosting, i.e. the compiler should be able to compile
    itself, once you've gotten a running instance of the compiler
    somehow.  Among other things, this helps establish that the language
    is actually useable.

Ideas?


From pete at shinners.org  Thu Aug 26 10:57:28 2004
From: pete at shinners.org (Pete Shinners)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 07:57:28 -0700
Subject: Static properties
In-Reply-To: <412DF4DD.4070302@berrs.net>
References: <412DF4DD.4070302@berrs.net>
Message-ID: <cgktli$ec1$1@sea.gmane.org>

Per Erik Stendahl wrote:
> Is it possible to define "static properties" in a class?

Variables defined at the class object level are what you consider 
"static" in C++. One thing that can trip people up is that these static 
attributes can be referenced from both the Class object and any Instance 
objects. But assignment to the static attribute can only happen on the 
Class object, otherwise the Instance will "shadow" the static attribute.

A simple class can demonstrate...

class Example(object):
     alpha = 1
     beta = 2
     def __init__(self):
         Example.cappa = Example.alpha + self.beta
         self.theta = 4

x = Example()
Example.alpha == x.alpha  #both are 1
x.beta = 42
Example.beta != x.beta    #now each have their own 'beta'
Example.theta             #AttributeError




From alberto.mantovaniNOSPAM at bologna.marelli.it  Wed Aug 18 04:16:07 2004
From: alberto.mantovaniNOSPAM at bologna.marelli.it (Alberto)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 08:16:07 GMT
Subject: Conoscere i processi presenti in windows
Message-ID: <41230f6a.7833266@news.marelli.it>

ciao,
volevo chiedere se esistono API che permettono dal Python di:
- conoscere quali processi sono presenti in windows ad un certo
momento?
- terminare un processo ?

grazie
Alberto


From agriff at tin.it  Mon Aug 23 02:28:07 2004
From: agriff at tin.it (Andrea Griffini)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 06:28:07 GMT
Subject: Has anyone implemented BASIC in Python?
References: <2oo13eFcj548U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<o6eii0h19pljd16shbfld7jdj7l2m7tc9m@4ax.com>
	<2ot30hFeek8nU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <9h0ji0lvc0be65nuvcugaa3vsq5mcl3ck8@4ax.com>

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 22:30:55 -0400, Leif K-Brooks
<eurleif at ecritters.biz> wrote:

>Andrea Griffini wrote:
>> I've no idea why you think that an unstructured language would
>> be a good starting point.
>
>There's no stack to deal with, and generally less possible expressions 
>to worry about. You're probably right about doing an expression parser 
>first, though; I will. Thanks for the advice.

I resorted to use two explicit stacks; one for FORs and one
for GOSUBs. There is no stack for expression evaluation because
python stack is used indirectly instead (expressions are evaluated
directly from the parse tree). Both of the explicit stacks
could have been dropped by considering a structured approach
with functions instead of the concept of just GOSUB-RETURN.
GOSUB-RETURN requires an explicit stack because it's a runtime
concept; not a parse-time concept. So it's not only uglier to
use... it's also harder to write.

Writing an interpreter that executes directly a parse tree of
a structured language program is IMO *easier* than writing an
interpreter for an unstructured language program.
That's why I think that starting from BASIC is not a good idea.

Things are different if we're talking about the VM approach,
but that's IMO something that should come later.

>> Anyway I found the idea of a BASIC interpreter in python intriguing,
>> so I wrote one this weekend. I wrote it for my egoistic fun, so
>> I'm not sure if it would be useful for you (or anyone else).
>
>Whoa, that's your idea of a weekend project? I'm speechless.

Writing parsers, interpreters and compilers is a lot simpler than
many do think. Of course the evil is in the details and getting
something that comes even just close to (just for example ;-) )
python is a *LOT* harder.

I have "The dragon" book, and I saw that the part dedicated
to recursive descent parsers is incredibly small.
No wonder that writing compilers and interpreters is considered
such a difficult task... IMO the shift-reduce approach is just
*too* abstract (at least too abstract for *ME*, that is ;-) ).

Note also that working without any requirement (i.e. creating
requirements on the fly) and without any timeline (i.e. doing
whatever you think it would be nice to do) and without any
(pointy-haired) boss or (annoying) user is a lot easier.

I actually even think that the percentage of time I spent coding
the tic-tac-toe example in BASIC is not so small...

>I really appreciate the example, and I'll try my best to understand it. 
>Did you use a parser generator or anything like that, or is it purely 
>hand-coded?

I never use yacc/lex, I just prefer hand-coding the parsers.

I never felt as pressing the problem of the speed of parsing
(I've read that this is one main superiority of shift-reduce
parsers). An hand-coded recursive descent parser is in my
opinion very easy to write... and very easy to maintain.
In the years I just found myself using tables for binary
operators to avoid repeating annoying code for just different
precedence levels or grouping; so I normally end up have just
one function for parsing "terms" (literals, varables, function
calls, parenthesized expressions and unary operators calls)
and one for parsing "expressions" that handles all binary
operators and that accepts the precedence level as a parameter.
Statements normally get their separate handcoded parsing
function (and this implies a lot of freedom about the syntax,
including making parsing dependent on the *meaning* of a symbol).
Also it's very easy to provide meaningful error messages.

For starting I would suggest however coding a separate
function at least for every precedence level (i.e. one for
mul/div, one for add/sub etc.... with lower precedence
ones that call higher precedence ones and with the highest
"term" one that calls the lowest "expr" for example for
parenthesized subexpressions).

Andrea


From npat at efault.net  Sat Aug 14 17:09:48 2004
From: npat at efault.net (Nick Patavalis)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 21:09:48 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Why I love python.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1639.1092433648.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<mailman.1583.1092378965.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnchpf2s.7ld.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<mailman.1614.1092408264.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnchq1c4.am7.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<mailman.1630.1092425261.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnchqbbq.am7.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<mailman.1639.1092433648.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnchsvss.b4g.npat@gray.efault.net>

On 2004-08-13 Dave Brueck <dave at pythonapocrypha.com> wrote:
>
> Having said that, the cases where it is too slow make up a small
> (and shrinking) portion of the total amount of development going
> on. As such, better performance is always welcome, but it won't
> benefit as many people and as much as other things can. IOW, anytime
> you say, "wouldn't it be great if Python were faster?" you can
> easily get everybody to respond, "sure!" - everybody's on board with
> you there. It's when you try to fit it into the list of priorities
> that you'll find that there are other things higher on the
> list. Higher because they provide more benefit overall and/or to the
> people who are interesting in helping out
>

I believe there is no point to continue our little "fight", or we risk
becoming repetive and boring. Our arguments have, I think, become
clear, and only time will tell who was right and who was wrong; if
after-all the is a "right" and a "wrong" side in this argument.

So lets drop it here, and wish the best for the language we both enjoy
programming in.

/npat


From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Fri Aug 20 15:03:54 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:03:54 -0700
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
In-Reply-To: <b68d2f19.0408200948.4939073@posting.google.com>
References: <mailman.1991.1092960665.5135.python-list@python.org>	<roy-4FE900.21540719082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.2020.1092995114.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b68d2f19.0408200948.4939073@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <10icinga8b34n9e@corp.supernews.com>

Neil Zanella wrote:

>To summarize, here are the two reasons to use staticmethod:
>
>1. You want to group a bunch of functions together. However, as it happens
>   such functions are not useful outside of a given class, so you use
>   staticmethod to place them where they belong. Perhaps you do not
>   have enough such functions to warrant their placement inside a
>   module of its own.
>
>2. You need to use inheritance and polymorphism but you don't need instances,
>   or perhaps you simply need instance independent polymorphism at the class
>   level.
>  
>

It seems to me that the most common case for staticmethod is when you 
have a function which does not rely directly on the attributes of an 
existing class/instance, but which *conceptually* belongs with that 
class.  For example, in wxPython, the wxImage class needs to have 
handlers for various filetypes installed before one can create wxImage 
instances from files of that type.  You can't use a normal method, 
obviously, because you need to install these handlers before you have an 
instance to call a method on.  You can implement them as a totally 
independent function (and wxPython used to do this), using a naming 
convention to indicate the relatedness.  But really, the best way to do 
this is as a staticmethod on the wxImage class.  It can be called before 
any instances are created, and it paves the way for creating such instances.

(Both of your examples seem set on the idea of classes which contain 
*only* staticmethods; I would submit that this is an extremely unusual 
case, though perhaps not without some utility.)

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From eddie at holyrood.ed.ac.uk  Wed Aug 11 12:20:17 2004
From: eddie at holyrood.ed.ac.uk (Eddie Corns)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:20:17 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: loading message thingy
References: <cfcndl$28em$1@otis.netspace.net.au>
Message-ID: <cfdh01$n30$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>

Robbie <user at domain.invalid> writes:

>Even though this is not very important it would be nice to get working.

>Basically all I want to do is continuously write to the same line.
>So I could have a little rotating text thing showing that the script is 
>working or display data ie, kb downloaded so far...

>ATM I am just calling a clear screen every pass with a little nap, nasty.

>Something along these lines:
>for i in range(1000):
>      print "Loading... %s" % file_size
>      os.system("clear")
>      sleep(0.5)
>I also tried something with \r but that never quite worked...
>Also it would be nice to be able to change more than one line so I could 
>have 4 threads open downloading something with 4 lines each stating the 
>current status of each thread...
>		
In the old days we all used to know all the ANSI control sequences off by
heart.  Nowadays you have it easy with curses and the like.  Not sure if
curses can be used to just use as many lines as you need rather than the whole
screen.  Perhaps it's over the top but you 0nly need to do it once.

The \r trick is the most common though, maybe you should try to get that
working.  Then squeeze all statuses onto 1 line eg:

File 1       File 2      File 3     File 4
  23%          45%        100%         0%\r  24%     etc.

Eddie


From fakeaddress at nowhere.org  Fri Aug  6 04:35:20 2004
From: fakeaddress at nowhere.org (Bryan Olson)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 08:35:20 GMT
Subject: Timing Difference: insert vs. append & reverse
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1181.1091683751.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <35b736b9.0408020330.53b24ed3@posting.google.com>	<Xns953983065EEC6duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>	<1a517b5.0408031027.60554dfb@posting.google.com>	<Xns953B4F5373D3Bduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>	<1a517b5.0408041305.3927a6c8@posting.google.com>	<mailman.1159.1091655528.5135.python-list@python.org>	<p7hQc.6692$AY5.4804@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
	<mailman.1181.1091683751.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cpHQc.960$ry5.149@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>

Tim Peters wrote:

 > [Bryan Olson, on complicating the list object again, and 2.4's deque 
type]
 >
 >>But it breaks (efficient) indexing.  Since we can have it all
 >>like Perl, why not?
 >
 >
 > As I said, the best Perl can do is O(1) amortized.

In fact, as both of us said.

 > If you follow the link you gave last time and read to the bottom
 > following the other links, you'll find that Perl lists had
 > quadratic-time behavior under the steady-state queue pattern for a
 > long time.  That was eventually fixed -- or so they say.  Small
 > details are both tricky and vital.

Agreed.  But those Perl wizards, misguided as they may be, are
pretty sharp.

 > 2.4's deque implementation is
 > obviously immune to "bad" patterns, steady-state queue or otherwise.
 >
 > Most immediately damning, adding another member to the list struct (to
 > keep track of the "low bound") would increase the size of every list
 > object by 8 bytes, on 32-bit boxes.  Python lists are easy to spell,
 > use and access, and some Python apps use millions of small lists.
 > They wouldn't appreciate the RAM hit for a mostly-useless feature.
 > Most Perl programmers seem to be so confused by Perl lists that they
 > only use them when they have to, to shift function arguments in and
 > out <0.6 wink>.

We must know different Perl programmers.

 > That's a use case for lists Python doesn't have at
 > all.
 >
 > You can pursue it if you want to, but with the 2.4 deque type I have
 > no interest in messing more with the list type.

I'm talking about facilities and their implementations, not
people.  True, when I pointed out that Perl nails this one, I
was kinda' thinking the comparison might motivate Pythoners to
pursue the same enhancement.  It was certainly *not* meant to
deride anyone who contributed to implementing Python.

Is Tim the superior Pythoner?  Duh.  Does Python rock?  Sure.
Is saving four-or-eight bytes more or less valuable than
providing efficient insert at both ends?  With all due respect
to Python and the people who implemented it, Perl kicks on this
one.


-- 
--Bryan


From xscottgjunk at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 06:10:14 2004
From: xscottgjunk at yahoo.com (Scott Gilbert)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 03:10:14 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <79b2b0bb.0408200210.d2016c0@posting.google.com>

C1 C1 C1


From pcm1778 at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 11 19:58:53 2004
From: pcm1778 at yahoo.com (pcm1778)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 23:58:53 -0000
Subject: Immediate Job: Python/PHP Developer
Message-ID: <cfebrt+k0tv@eGroups.com>

We have an immediate opportunity for Python/PHP Developer in Bay 
Area, CA
Duration: 3 months(extendable)

Qualified candidate must have strong experience in Python.
Experienced in Perl/PHP is strongly desired.
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Other skills: Javascript, CSS

Please respond to payal at stecs.com with a detailed updated resume and
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Placement Recruiter
SearchTech Solutions
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Campbell, CA 95008
Office (408) 540.1800 Ext. 231
payal at stecs.com
www.stecs.com
http://www.stecs.com/jobposts/index.html - visit this link to see 
our most recent job opportunities




From davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu  Sun Aug 29 02:38:11 2004
From: davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu (David Pokorny)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 23:38:11 -0700
Subject: Announcing PyCs, a new Python-like language on .Net
References: <mailman.2572.1093751093.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <6qKdnRPPZ6Cn56zcRVn-oQ@lmi.net>

WARNING: unfair stab coming.

"Mark Hahn" <mark at prothon.org> wrote in message
news:mailman.2572.1093751093.5135.python- XP-like > low-traffic,
high-content, mailing list.  You will be able to influence the
> design of the latest and greatest dynamic language.

I'm resisting the urge to compare programming languages to women... or wine.
If we were living about 40 years ago, "ideal societies" a.k.a. hippie
communes might get thrown in this list.

David




From insert at spam.here  Tue Aug 24 22:22:21 2004
From: insert at spam.here (Doug Holton)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 21:22:21 -0500
Subject: J2 0-2-6 is available
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2323.1093399282.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2323.1093399282.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <vNSdnQtkP7x9arbcRVn-vQ@comcast.com>

Robert Brewer wrote:

> Steven Bethard wrote:
> 
>>Actually, there's an interesting argument that the "with" for 
>>decorators and 
>>the "with" above can be thought of in similar terms:
>>
>>http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2004-August/235993.html
>>
>>I don't know if I agree with it, but I think I'm at least 
>>convinced they don't 
>>have to mean *completely* different things.
> 
> 
> FYI, I'm linking to that in the next document version later tonight.
> 

Your example from the mailing list (copied below) doesn't make sense if 
you mix and match the beginning period, and it is bizaar to have "with:" 
mean "affects a future function" while "with x:" means "within the x 
namespace", something very different.  I would not recommend using the 
same keyword for two entirely different transformations, one which 
solely affects functions defined in the future and the other which is a 
regular code block but without having to repeat the same prefix (like 
self) over and over.

with:
     classmethod
     .author = "Fran?ois Pinard"
def foo(cls):
     pass

def bar():
     pass
with bar:
     staticmethod
     .version = "0.2.4"

So if I say:
with self:
     init
     .version = 3
Is that supposed to mean:
init(self)
self.version = 3?
So not using a period suddenly means "pass the previous or future 
defined variable or function to me and I'll do something to it now or in 
the future"?


From iketo2 at netscape.net  Fri Aug 27 10:01:01 2004
From: iketo2 at netscape.net (Isaac To)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 22:01:01 +0800
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87hdqok9i6.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1rfz68ely9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <876574k7du.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>

>>>>> "Kjetil" == Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no> writes:

    >> and you tab at the last line, Emacs won't try to indent the
    >> t=t2 line further to after the pass line where it is
    >> impossible to execute.
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

At the second glance this statement is false.  If you have a statement
after "pass" it actually will execute after the pass statement which
does nothing.  So this is purely a convention of Emacs, making use of
a pattern that is never useful in programs anyway.  (If you have such
pass statement and the next statement is in the same suite, you simply
would delete the pass statement.)  The "return" statement also has the
same effect.

    Kjetil> interesting idea, but Python won't discover
    Kjetil> inconsistencies.

It's a Emacs convention, so it is of course the burden of Emacs to
detect inconsistency, i.e., a change of indentation is not indicated
by a "pass", "return", or a statement ending with ":" and perhaps some
comments after it.  I imagine that it would be a very simple regular
expression to write if you really want to do it.

When Python is concerned and Emacs is not, Python only sees there is
indentation, and only indentation, to define the suites.  And it is
also what people will perceive when they stare at the code.  There is
nothing to be inconsistent with it.

Regards,
Isaac.


From amk at amk.ca  Mon Aug 30 11:29:34 2004
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:29:34 -0500
Subject: PHP Documentation
References: <4133124f$0$281$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>
	<wpednS2Tk8udsa7cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <VeidneVL2-tD2q7cRVn-sw@speakeasy.net>

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:30:39 -0400, 
	Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> 1) Thinking it's a good idea isn't enough if you want it: somebody
>     has to implement it.  It's been suggested before, so at this
>     point the next step is for someone who likes the idea enough
>     to just do it.

Someone started doing it manually -- see
http://www.python.org/moin/PythonLibraryReference .

--amk


From gotcha at bubblenet.be  Fri Aug 27 04:02:29 2004
From: gotcha at bubblenet.be (Godefroid Chapelle)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 01:02:29 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3242df70.0408270002.55fb66c0@posting.google.com>

Hi all,

It might be too late to send a vote...

I'd understand this easily.

So do not take the time to tell me I am too late ;-)


C2 C2 C2


Godefroid Chapelle aka __gotcha


From bryanjugglercryptographer at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 16 20:08:39 2004
From: bryanjugglercryptographer at yahoo.com (Bryan Olson)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 17:08:39 -0700
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
References: <mailman.1686.1092582164.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1a517b5.0408161608.46c2023c@posting.google.com>

Michael Sparks:
> On Sun, 15 Aug 2004, Nick Patavalis wrote:
> ...
> > For me it would be *tremendously* usefull if one could yield across
> > multiple levels of function calls. If this was supported, then most
> > uses of O/S treads could be replaced by generators.
> 
> You can do this already if you use Armin Rigo's Greenlets which, whilst
> included in Stackless appear to work perfectly fine with standard python.
> (I've only tested with 2.3 FWIW)

Correct me if I'm wrong: Greenlets use a c-language extension to
do the routine switching; implementing the same in pure Python is
infeasable.

Generators rock, but they have a shadow of the power of co-routines.
Continuations are more powerful still.

-- 
--Bryan


From eldiener at earthlink.net  Wed Aug 18 20:56:50 2004
From: eldiener at earthlink.net (Edward Diener)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 00:56:50 GMT
Subject: Piping stdout to Python callable
References: <bYbUc.24077$nx2.16696@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<slrnci3t3q.k5.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<WZxUc.25125$nx2.16316@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<slrnci61oq.k5.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
Message-ID: <mVSUc.27118$nx2.15067@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>

Antoon Pardon wrote:
> Op 2004-08-18, Edward Diener schreef <eldiener at earthlink.net>:
>> Antoon Pardon wrote:
>>> Op 2004-08-17, Edward Diener schreef <eldiener at earthlink.net>:
>>>> From within a function in my own module I need to take the output
>>>> from a Python module "A", which is sending data to stdout and which
>>>> can not be changed and which I need to invoke as a top-level
>>>> module, and pipe it into another function in my own module so that
>>>> I can read it from stdin. Is there an easy way to do this ? The
>>>> only way I can presently think to do this is through "system
>>>> python A.py | python MyOwnModule.py", which seems a bit laborious
>>>> having to invoke python.exe itself twice. Any other solution would
>>>> be most welcome.
>>>
>>> What do you mean when you say you need to invoke it as a top-level
>>> module?  Do you mean you can't import it at all or that importing it
>>> will startup the process of generating output immediatly?
>>
>> I mean that it has a "if __name__ == '__main__' line and I need to
>> trigger it by calling 'python A.py'.
>
>>>
>>> What bothers you with twice invoking the interpreter?
>>
>> Nothing practically. Just seems inelegant.
>>
>>> In these days
>>> a program that is invoked multiples times will generally be only
>>> loaded once in memory.
>>
>> Shared libraries may be loaded once in memory but python.exe itself
>> gets reloaded each time.
>
> That depends on the O.S. It is possible the O.S. notices that an
> invoked program is already loaded en uses the same code-segment
> in memory for following invocations.
>
>>> Are threads an acceptable alternative? Does your MyOwnModule.py
>>> needs to write to stdout?
>>
>> Threads are acceptable. MyOwnModule.py can do anything, depending on
>> parameters, but the idea is that a certain parameter tells it to
>> read from stdin on the other end of the pipe.
>
> Then I fear there is no other solution. As far as I understand, you
> can't redirect standard output on a per thread basis, (at least not
> in python.) That means that if you redirect stdout of the A.py module
> to go into a pipe, the stdout of MyOwnModule.py will go into the
> same pipe. I don't think you want that.

Just wanted to write that someone else pointed out to me os.popen("python
A.py") and that did work well as an alternative to using os.system(etc.) .
Nonetheless thanks for your help. I mentioned this so that you would know
also know about it yourself if you hadn't encountered it.




From shalabh at cafepy.com  Mon Aug 30 22:49:28 2004
From: shalabh at cafepy.com (Shalabh Chaturvedi)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 19:49:28 -0700
Subject: why does this fail on python 2.2?
In-Reply-To: <m2oeksu2ok.fsf@mother.paradise.lost>
References: <m2oeksu2ok.fsf@mother.paradise.lost>
Message-ID: <4133E738.20304@cafepy.com>

John Hunter wrote:
> I'm trying to understand why some code from a module I'm using is
> failing on 2.3 but working on 2.3.  Here is the minimal example that
> replicates the problem
> 
> class Results(object):
>     __slots__ = ( "__doinit" )
>     def __new__(cls):
>         retobj = object.__new__(cls)
>         retobj.__doinit = True
>         return retobj
> 
> x = Results()
> 
> On python2.2, this fails with
> 
> mother:~/tmp> python2.2 test.py
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "test.py", line 8, in ?
>     x = Results()
>   File "test.py", line 5, in __new__
>     retobj.__doinit = True
> AttributeError: 'Results' object has no attribute '_Results__doinit'

Since mangling slots was a feature added in 2.3:

http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=569257&group_id=5470&atid=105470
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=671439&group_id=5470&atid=105470

Looking for keyword __slots__ and closed issues in the sf tracker led me 
to the above.

--
Shalabh




From jjl at pobox.com  Wed Aug 25 14:38:33 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 19:38:33 +0100
Subject: python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
References: <mailman.2274.1093330945.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<z_idnSRcLoYq1LbcRVn-jg@giganews.com>
	<mailman.2280.1093356404.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<t6GdnTYtX4VOyLbcRVn-vA@giganews.com>
	<mailman.2282.1093360693.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87y8k35ahi.fsf@pobox.com>

Richie Hindle <richie at entrian.com> writes:

> [Istvan]
> > what does:
> > 
> >  > It is not to be used in the stdlib ever.
> > 
> > mean in this context?
> 
> As I understand it, it means that no standard library code should take
> advantage of the fact that repeated s1 += s2 operations are fast in CPython
> 2.4.  Instead, it should use the ''.join() idiom.
[...]

The stdlib already *does* take advantage of the patch.

It began taking advantage of it the instant the code was committed,
because, for example, httplib.HTTPResponse_read_chunked() uses string
concatenation.

believe-it-or-not-ly y'rs,


John


From ajsiegel at optonline.net  Wed Aug 11 15:00:38 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel at optonline.net)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:00:38 -0400
Subject: PEP318
Message-ID: <1acd9271ace724.1ace7241acd927@optonline.net>

Arthur wrote:
>> And either intuitively, or consciously, he is doing something that
>> offsets it from something truly intergrated into the core of the
>> language.  By breakling all of his own rules.

>But it *isn't* part of the core language. I think that's the whole 
>point. @decorator does something that no other statement in Python does, 
>so why should it *look* like a normal statement? Or are you suggesting 
>that a keyword should be used instead of a symbol?

>I must not understand your argument.

I'm not making an argument. I'm speculating.

The design goals of PEP318 include:

"""
make it obvious what is happening; at the very least it should be obvious that new users can safely ignore it when writing their own code 
"""

I'm supportive (I guess) of that design goal, but I guess I am speculating that
the actual decision as to the syntax might have been different had this not
have been among the design goals. And that a lot of the discussion regarding the syntax seems to not take consideration of this particular design goal and how it might have impacted Gudio's decision.

Art 



From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Aug 27 01:49:24 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 07:49:24 +0200
Subject: MSI Installer Problem: can't install 2.4a2 on new install of
 Win2kSP2
In-Reply-To: <p5vsi09a62l3jgvo7omks26gipml6ru524@4ax.com>
References: <vnipi0ldsgchqqiti1q19qtd5d70ju17p0@4ax.com>
	<412d7dcd$0$26184$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<sfsri058cggdn56usp887tcrus25sgdcsv@4ax.com>
	<412e5452$0$24835$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<p5vsi09a62l3jgvo7omks26gipml6ru524@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <412ecb64$0$24800$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

Richard Hanson wrote:
> If I have a directory named "Python23" with *only* the immediate
> contents of "Lib" in it (no other files or directories nor any of
> Lib's sub-dirs) in a separate Win98 partition, then IDLE doesn't run.
> However, if I rename or move that dir inside another dir, then IDLE
> runs. I can move that subsetted Python23 dir back and forth between
> being hidden inside another dir and being in the root, without
> rebooting, and IDLE works or not, depending on the visibility of that
> very limited subset of the normal Python23 install directory.

Could it be that you have an environment variable PYTHONHOME or
PYTHONPATH set?

As for the console being mostly broken: what precisely does that mean?
If you run cmd.exe, and start c:\python24\python.exe, what happens?
What happens if you add a -v option to python.exe?

Regards,
Martin


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug 13 08:18:40 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 08:18:40 -0400
Subject: decorator syntax polling suggestion
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1588.1092379795.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <d11dcfba.0408121252.7690a43a@posting.google.com>	<411BF3FC.71051A6F@alcyone.com>
	<CISdnRfssu4lrIHcRVn-ow@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1588.1092379795.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2YidnSIOKuQ8LIHcRVn-qw@powergate.ca>

Anthony Baxter wrote:

> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:12:56 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> 
>>On the other, if there are people who are dissatisfied with
>>@pie, they can vote, use the results to help them focus
>>their energies on the most likely alternate candidate(s),
>>and finally present a united front saying "uh, @pie
>>sucks, and we have a wide consensus that syntax XXXX
>>would be much better for these reasons..."
> 
> But then you end up with the opposite problem - a pile of
> people say "we want this one" (say, list-before-def), it's
> implemented, then all the people who prefer pie-decorators
> start jumping up and down.

Why on earth would it be *implemented* before we rationally
faced that phase of the debate?  Nobody that I know is silly
enough to think that we should immediately rip out @pie
if there's an alternative that lots of people like better,
since it's pretty obvious there are people who like (and
have invested significant mindshare in getting used to) @pie.

No, this phase doesn't involve the @pie-ists... it's a
reasonable discussion amonst those who don't like it.  Someone
asked us to do that.  Now we're doing it, so don't complain.
When, or if, we reach a consensus, then we start to involve
the @pie folks but until then it's not their argument.

> I don't think there's as wide a concensus as I keep hearing
> about. 

Where have you heard there *was* a consensus?  I don't recall
seeing such a thing, though I've raised the question of whether
it exists yet.

 > The people who hate pie-decorators post a _lot_ -
> most people seem to either not care, or else post once or
> twice and then disappear. I think I'm about the only person
> posting in any volume to c.l.py in favour of the syntax, and
> even then, my liking of it is also driven by a dislike of the 
> other proposed syntaxes. 

Well, for the record then (and in spite of my "not their
argument" rant above), could you please provide your opinion
and reasons on the "decorate:" syntax?  To be completely
honest about it, I haven't seen very many negative comments
about it.  In fact, almost none, and that's why I was
starting to think there *might* be a consensus forming,
which is why I started asking.

-Peter


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Mon Aug 16 11:58:17 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:58:17 -0400
Subject: Newbie question about file input
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408161136480.11457-100000@ccc3.wpi.edu>
References: <cfqj3s$cti$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408161136480.11457-100000@ccc3.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408161154370.11825-100000@ccc3.wpi.edu>

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, Christopher T King wrote:

> The not-so-immediate fix would be to skip the blank line check

Oops, I didn't see you were using the blank line check to check for EOF 
(as Ben pointed out); forget I said that.  Do what he said instead.

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, Peter Hansen wrote:

> (Not that this will stop someone from posting a one-liner using the "re"
> module and len(findall()), but you can safely ignore them. ;-)

It was hard, but I was able to restrain myself ;)



From james.black at NOSPAM.luxurysubs.org  Mon Aug  9 23:50:04 2004
From: james.black at NOSPAM.luxurysubs.org (James)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 21:50:04 -0600
Subject: Just Starting.
Message-ID: <MaqdnRTGfeCX2IXcRVn-tw@adelphia.com>

Hello My name is James and I was wondering if any of you out there can
recommend a good book or link for beginners?

Thanks
James




From noone at here.com  Wed Aug 25 23:06:33 2004
From: noone at here.com (M. Clift)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 04:06:33 +0100
Subject: Just a quick one
References: <cgi2qq$rvp$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<cgi3ev$g6k$1@online.de><cgi5vc$m52$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<mailman.2391.1093473637.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgj95i$pl8$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <cgjk1q$1o4$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>

Hi All,

At the risk of looking stupid would someone mind showing me how this is done
in this case. I can't remove the brackets from (('Bob', 'Mary'), ('Spam',
'chips'))  to give(('Bob', 'Mary', 'Spam', 'chips')) . From what Phil and Sm
said I thought it would be easy. I've tried using list( ). I've had a go at
referencing the individual elements...

Anyone?

Thanks
M




From unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom  Tue Aug  3 19:25:29 2004
From: unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom (Michel Claveau - abstraction méta-galactique non triviale en fuite perpétuelle.)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 01:25:29 +0200
Subject: python + byte array
References: <mailman.1105.1091572959.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<CuCdnUVgaY59hI3cRVn-sA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <ceq3ct$n1k$1@news-reader3.wanadoo.fr>

Hi !

But COM's string parameters are in Unicode, not bytes array.
And win32Com convert auto strings parameters in Unicode.

Ruslan :  see, also,  cTypes








From dontreply at caramail.com  Thu Aug 19 22:10:34 2004
From: dontreply at caramail.com (Cyrille Lavigne)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 19:10:34 -0700
Subject: Rita Sue and Bob too
In-Reply-To: <cg3ksb$bg5$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <cg3miq$mkf@odak26.prod.google.com>

If you dont want them in order you should do:
>if "Rita" and "Sue" and "Bob" in list:
>    print "They were found"
>else:
>    print "They are not in the list"
Otherwise:
>c,a=0,0
>while c<len(list):
>    if list[c]=="Rita":
>        if list[c+1]=="Sue":
>            if list[c+2]=="Bob":
>                print "They were found"
>                a=1
>    c=c+1
>if a!=1:
>    print "they are not in the list"
but I'm sure there is a better way of doing this.



From cito at online.de  Fri Aug 13 00:50:05 2004
From: cito at online.de (Christoph Zwerschke)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 06:50:05 +0200
Subject: multiline snippets with triple quotes
References: <cfgff0$p3o$1@online.de> <10hnj4bjqojjh05@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <cfhhrh$f5q$1@online.de>

> IIRC, sequential strings with only whitespace in between them are
> automatically concatenated.

Yes, but you have to add either brackets around everything or backslashes at
the line ends, otherwise the lines are not kept together.

> This does have the disadvantage of requiring explicit newlines, however.

Yes, plus you need to escape the double quotes.

These three disadvantages are why I wanted to use triple quotes.

Chris




From maxwell at ldc.upenn.edu  Tue Aug 31 16:22:31 2004
From: maxwell at ldc.upenn.edu (Mike Maxwell)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 16:22:31 -0400
Subject: -c input
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2690.1093982548.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <367a4461.0408311151.59b61f54@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.2690.1093982548.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ch2mit$6kcp$1@netnews.upenn.edu>

Steven Bethard wrote:
> Semicolons are only allowed with simple statements, not compound statements:
> 
> http://docs.python.org/ref/compound.html

Aargh, I'm getting perl envy...

> Note that the '\' characters cause unix to include the newline in the string, 
> instead of reading it as the command terminator.  I don't know how to do this 
> in Windows.

Yes, I tried this, but it doesn't seem to work inside (Gnu) makefiles, 
either (at least I can't see how to do it).

Thanks for the answers, even if they weren't what I was hoping for :-).

	Mike Maxwell


From rnd at onego.ru  Thu Aug 12 05:32:28 2004
From: rnd at onego.ru (Roman Suzi)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:32:28 +0400 (MSD)
Subject: decorator with ```
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408121325110.4253@suzi.com.onego.ru>


One more crazy syntax before-def but which could be treated
more generally:

```"""  Factory for new decorator syntaxes.

         Keeps all proposals in a list and will recombine
         them at random if called without a spec. """
   staticmethod```
def makeDecoratorSyntax(spec=None):
    raise NotImplementedException()

New execution block type (in addition to exec, eval and
interactive) could be added to allow needed behaviour.

Less-decorated are also fine:

```staticmethod```
def makeDecoratorSyntax(spec=None):
    raise NotImplementedException()

Several block could also concatewnate:

```staticmethod```
```decor2```
def makeDecoratorSyntax(spec=None):
    raise NotImplementedException()

Or use ; to put them into one line:

```staticmethod; decor2```
def makeDecoratorSyntax(spec=None):
    raise NotImplementedException()


Of course, the same could be put AFTER def, like docstring.

Sincerely yours, Roman A.Suzi
-- 
 - Petrozavodsk - Karelia - Russia - mailto:rnd at onego.ru -



From pf_moore at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Aug 27 14:17:24 2004
From: pf_moore at yahoo.co.uk (Paul Moore)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:17:24 +0100
Subject: Sound file manipulation in Python
References: <uu0upzj72.fsf@yahoo.co.uk> <1093570115.70672@news.commspeed.net>
Message-ID: <uoekw4f9n.fsf@yahoo.co.uk>

"Tom B." <sbabbitt at commspeed.net> writes:

> I would try the Snack toolkit at http://www.speech.kth.se/snack/

Looks good, but more focused on manipulation and playback. I couldn't
see any handling of tags/metadata.

>   Supported sound file formats: WAV, AU, AIFF, MP3, CSL, SD, SMP, and
> NIST/Sphere

No Ogg or FLAC :-(

I'll keep it in mind, though.

Paul.
-- 
"Bother," said the Borg, "We've assimilated Pooh."


From michele.simionato at gmail.com  Sun Aug  8 00:41:08 2004
From: michele.simionato at gmail.com (Michele Simionato)
Date: 7 Aug 2004 21:41:08 -0700
Subject: elements of decorator syntax suggestions
References: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>		<mailman.1298.1091815362.5135.python-list@python.org>		<4edc17eb.0408062125.231f7bef@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1324.1091857951.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<41155C33.37EEB397@alcyone.com>
Message-ID: <4edc17eb.0408072041.7bfe9eff@posting.google.com>

Erik Max Francis <max at alcyone.com> wrote in message news:<41155C33.37EEB397 at alcyone.com>...
> Tim Peters wrote:
> 
> > Overloading a unary prefix operator is out.  As Anthony said, vertical
> > bar seemed to be the leading contender on python-dev Friday.  You can
> > find tedious arguments there about most of the others that would go
> > for you.
> 
> Why is | superior to @?  | already has a meaning in Python, and it has
> nothing to do with decorators ... at least @ has the virtue of currently
> being unused in the language, and having the precedent of being used for
> a similar feature in Java.

1. @ is already used in Leo and ipython, "|" is not. 
2. "|" stands visually more than other characters.
3. Many people have an irrational repulsion for "@" and "$".


         Michele Simionato


From joshway_without_spam at myway.com  Wed Aug 18 16:33:09 2004
From: joshway_without_spam at myway.com (JCM)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:33:09 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Embedding Python in Python
References: <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
	<7xu0v0l2be.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<cg09ne$ma7$1@fred.mathworks.com>
	<7x3c2kkzn8.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<cg0bjf$78b$1@fred.mathworks.com>
	<pan.2004.08.18.21.03.27.96687@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
Message-ID: <cg0ee5$no$2@fred.mathworks.com>

Robey Holderith <robey at slash_dev_slash_random.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:44:47 +0000, JCM wrote:
...
>> I don't think it's as difficult as you think.  Your snippet of code
>> would be rejected by the rules I suggested.  You'd also want to
>> prohibit other builtins like compile, execfile, input, reload, vars,
>> etc.

> I'm going to have to agree with Paul on this one.  I do not feel up to
> the task of thinking of every possible variant of malicious code.  There
> are far too many ways of writing the exact same thing.  I think it would
> be much easier to write my own interpreter. 

Well it certainly isn't easier to write your own interpreter if you're
talking about the effort you'd need to put into it.  And I'm not
convinced it's that tricky to come up with a set of syntax rules to
decide whether a piece of code is simple/safe enough to run.  It
basically comes down to disallowing certain statements and certain
identifiers.  Of course you'll end up rejecting a lot of code that
isn't malicious.

If you're interested enough, I'll try to throw a safety-checker
together.  You'd have to be pretty interested though (I'm lazy).


From grv575 at hotmail.com  Tue Aug  3 20:42:38 2004
From: grv575 at hotmail.com (grv)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 00:42:38 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: numarray speed question
Message-ID: <953AD3D0Didtoken@128.91.2.239>

So it is supposed to be very fast to have an array of say 5 million 
integers stored in a binary file and do

a = numarray.fromfile('filename', (2, 2, 2))
numarray.add(a, 9, a)

but how is that faster than reading the entire file into memory and then 
having a for loop in C:
   (loop over range) {
      *p++ += 9      }

or is that essentially what's going on?


From M.Waack at gmx.de  Mon Aug 16 15:24:16 2004
From: M.Waack at gmx.de (Mathias Waack)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:24:16 +0200
Subject: passing globals to imported module
References: <mailman.1756.1092682856.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <18e7v1-o68.ln1@valpo.de>

James Tauber wrote:

> 
> Had a question from a colleague that I embarrassingly couldn't
> answer.
> 
> He has a script, foo.py with a global. He wants to import bar.py
> and needs that global available in bar.py

Note that "global" in python means global in the current module. 

> The following obviously doesn't work:
> 
> # foo.py
> my_global = "hello"
> print globals().keys()
> import bar
> 
> 
> # bar.py
> print globals().keys()

If you need the global _after_ the import you can just add in foo.py: 

  bar.my_global = my_global

Another solution would be to use a better design;)

Mathias


From austynjay at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 16 12:35:31 2004
From: austynjay at yahoo.com (Austyn Bontrager)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:35:31 GMT
Subject: Best pattern/idiom
In-Reply-To: <4117c3d8$1@buckaroo.cs.rit.edu>
References: <4117c3d8$1@buckaroo.cs.rit.edu>
Message-ID: <nn5Uc.1448$3O3.414@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>

You might be interested in the numarray package
http://www.stsci.edu/resources/software_hardware/numarray

 >>> A = numarray.array([1,2,3,4])
 >>> B = numarray.reshape(A, (2,2))
 >>> B
array([[1 2]
        [3 4]])


From peter.maas at mplusr.de  Thu Aug 26 10:11:38 2004
From: peter.maas at mplusr.de (Peter Maas)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:11:38 +0200
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
In-Reply-To: <b301fb47.0408260503.5dbb08f5@posting.google.com>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<VJOdnfiBTci22rDcRVn-gg@adelphia.com>
	<aNidnUSV4-OK4rDcRVn-jA@powergate.ca>
	<b301fb47.0408260503.5dbb08f5@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgkqva$47g$1@swifty.westend.com>

norman werner schrieb:
> Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message news:<aNidnUSV4-OK4rDcRVn-jA at powergate.ca>...
> 
>>Robert wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Isn't "Xah Lee" chinese for "Moron"?
>>
>>No, it's Esperanto (universal language) for "troll"...
>>
>>-Peter
> 
> 
> Bonvolu ne s:ercu pri nekonatoj aferoj. "Xah Lee" certe - pro manko de
> Ikso - ne estas esperanto. Kaj via s:erco nur s:tulta estas.
> 
> 
> Norman
> tradukita:
> You certainly have not the slightest idea about esperanto. So please 
> dont't emberass yourself. And back to topic(?): "Xah lee" is not
> esperanto.

I've only taken a superficial look to Esperanto but your "tradukita"
seems to be a very loose translation. What does the Kaj ... phrase mean?
"You are dumb", "Your joke is dumb", ...?

Mit freundlichen Gruessen,

Peter Maas

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Maas,  M+R Infosysteme,  D-52070 Aachen,  Tel +49-241-93878-0
E-mail 'cGV0ZXIubWFhc0BtcGx1c3IuZGU=\n'.decode('base64')
-------------------------------------------------------------------


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 11:34:40 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:34:40 -0400
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
In-Reply-To: <3ke1i05c3cq93vhdmdigj3pudru9n99a4j@4ax.com>
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1637.1092428855.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<30260531.0408131853.18ec2446@posting.google.com>
	<LIqdnd7Jz9Mspr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<3ke1i05c3cq93vhdmdigj3pudru9n99a4j@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <fI2dnUCPMP6MSb3cRVn-vA@powergate.ca>

Richard Hanson wrote:
> For me, a not insignificant part of Python's genius *is* the
> indentation. When I used C and C++ I was a stickler (pedant? :-)
> ) for "proper" indentation -- which was a PITA. So -- I took to
> Python's indentation like a duck to water.

That's been exactly my situation as well, which leads me to
theorize that those who react most strongly against Python's
syntactically significant indentation are those who were the
least consistent or, uh, "anal" about making sure their code
conformed to conventions.

The corollary would be that those who already wrote code which
would have been accepted by a compiler which checked indentation,
are those who hardly blink when encountering Python,
other than to say "Of course!" as you did, and carry on writing
code just as they used to, with a mild feeling of dismay that
it never occurred to them before to question the supposed
value of braces or begin/end tags.

-Peter


From spam_me_gently_with_a_chainsaw at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  2 11:54:45 2004
From: spam_me_gently_with_a_chainsaw at yahoo.com (Double Dumbass on You)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 08:54:45 -0700
Subject: Trimming a string
References: <410B7277.3000609@mail.usyd.edu.au> <410E48BD.9060202@comcast.net>
	<mailman.1055.1091461210.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10gsou5onaqjo5f@news.supernews.com>

Thanks for the tip.


"Tim Williams" <listserver at tdw.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.1055.1091461210.5135.python-list at python.org...
> >I have a string that is 7 characters and represents file mode in
UNIX/LINUX
> from rpm:
>
> >0100755
>
> >I don't care about the 0100 portion, I am only interested in the file
> >permissions portion which is 755.  How can I get three characters from
the
> >string starting at the right?  ( -OR- strip 4 characters from the left? )
>
>
>
> >>> str = "0100755"
> >>> str1 = str[4:]
> >>> print str1
> 755
> >>> str2 = str[-3:]
> >>> print str2
> 755
> >>>




From outpost at rumblefish.org  Fri Aug 13 07:00:56 2004
From: outpost at rumblefish.org (Thomas D'Tak)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:00:56 +0200
Subject: Why can't  pickle dump this instance?
References: <ba1e306f.0408122146.703311d5@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.13.11.00.55.869530@rumblefish.org>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:46:27 -0700, Jane Austine wrote:

> class A:
>     def __init__(self,tick):
>         if tick:
>             self.foo=self.bar
>         else:
>             self.foo=self.bur
>     def bar(self):
>         print 'bar'
>     def bur(self):
>         print 'bur'
> 
> import pickle
> pickle.dumps(A())
> 
> running this script results in "TypeError: can't pickle function objects"
> 
> Why does this happen? and what can I do?

Running this script should actually result in

    TypeError: __init__() takes exactly 2 arguments (1 given)

because you did not write

    def __init__(self, tick=None):


But coming back to your original problem, have a look at the
following code:

    def bar():
        print 'bar'

    def bur():
        print 'bur'
    
    class A:
        def __init__(self,tick=None):
            if tick:
                self.foo=bar
            else:
                self.foo=bur

    import pickle
    pickle.dumps(A())

The above will do what you want. Have a look at the Python
Library Reference's
 
    3.14.4 What can be pickled and unpickled?
    http://www.python.org/doc/2.3.4/lib/node65.html

to see, why this works while the other script does not.

HTH, Th.



From hamilcar at tld.always.invalid  Tue Aug 10 13:31:17 2004
From: hamilcar at tld.always.invalid (Hamilcar Barca)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 11:31:17 -0600
Subject: How do I get IDLE on Suse Linux 9.x?
References: <0G1Sc.149588$fv.89578@fe2.columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20040810133117.710$MS@news.newsreader.com>

In article <0G1Sc.149588$fv.89578 at fe2.columbus.rr.com> (Tue, 10 Aug 2004
10:44:12 +0000), michael wrote:

> I tried to run / search for IDLE which I thought was a standard install on
> any python installation but it is not present.

Under Debian Linux, the standard Python distribution is broken up into
several packages -- which I found very confusing at first).  Debian
has an "idle-python2.3" package.

> My question is this: Should I just use a text editor and go without IDLE? 

I've installed IDLE but never used it.

> Is there another IDE standard on Linux?

You mean besides Emacs?

> Do I need to download something to get IDLE?

I don't know SuSE but you do to use the standard Debian distributions of
Python.



From noone at here.com  Fri Aug 20 08:06:49 2004
From: noone at here.com (M. Clift)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:06:49 +0100
Subject: Rita Sue and Bob too
References: <mailman.2028.1093000050.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<mailman.2031.1093000498.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cg4pf3$i7m$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>

To everyone who has posted a reply on this, I must really say thankyou. It's
like having my own teacher in the room! Because of you lot I'm learning at a
far quicker pace than tutorials alone.

I've never felt the need to post something like this to other forums etc...
while I worked out what multimedia/actionscript/language could do what I
want (apart from saying thanks ; ), but this group is without doubt the
friendliest and most helpful of all so far. Hats off gentlemen!

M




From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug  3 21:29:19 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 21:29:19 -0400
Subject: help: Unit test fixture returning the same object
In-Reply-To: <9895e897.0408031533.26720ba0@posting.google.com>
References: <9895e897.0408031533.26720ba0@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <nKGdnfWEjOtspo3cRVn-qg@powergate.ca>

Michael McCracken wrote:

> The problem is that in each test case, setUp and tearDown are called
> as expected according to the print statements, but they don't seem to
> have any effect after the first invocation. self.testfile is always
> the same instance as reported by id().

What Roy said... but to prove it to yourself, if you need to,
just implement a little class-variable-based counter in the
File __init__ method to show that you are getting different
objects each time.  (That is, increment a global counter
each time you go through __init__, and store the current
count in the instance, to be retrieved and shown when you
are printing the ids() for the objects.)

-Peter


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 17 10:23:02 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:23:02 -0400
Subject: How big can a Python program be?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1797.1092750898.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1797.1092750898.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bJCdnQW0W55aib_cRVn-oA@powergate.ca>

Ben Last wrote:

> Hmmm... are all the resulting code objects kept forever, or are those that
> are no longer required subject to garbage collection?  

Roughly, nothing is kept forever.  I think even interned strings
are now freed when no longer referenced.

It certainly seems possible to structure a program such that you
could feed more data to it, have it treat that data as code,
compiling it, executing it, and discarding it when no longer
required.

I guess it becomes more of a philosophical question whether the
program is the little loader that you created to do this, or
the endless stream of data which gets treated as code.  We're
not used to seeing programs as indefinitely sized...  we'd
probably say something like the program is only that code which
is memory resident at any given time.

In any case, the difficulty with writing infinitely sized
programs is that your day to day productivity, relative
to the size of the task at hand, is always zero...

-Peter


From martin at v.loewis.de  Sun Aug 22 05:52:26 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:52:26 +0200
Subject: unicodedata name for \u000a
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2144.1093167596.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2144.1093167596.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <41286cdb$0$12440$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

Ken Beesley wrote:
> OK. I see that for 000A there is not now an official Unicode name in 
> 4.0, and that "LINE FEED (LF)" is an alias. Such an alias, shown in 
> uppercase letters, indicates that it _was_ the name of the character in 
> The Unicode Standard, Version 1.0. See The Unicode Standard 4.0, p. 415 
> ("Aliases"). This seems odd. One intuitively assumes that any defined 
> Unicode character has a Unicode name.

Indeed, this intuition is wrong. Other Unicode characters that don't
have names are:
- surrogates (U+D800..U+DFFF); it is debatable whether these are
   characters, though
- private use characters (U+E000..U+F8FF, U+F0000..U+FFFFD,
   U+10000..U+10FFFD).

Regards,
Martin


From michele.simionato at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 10:32:15 2004
From: michele.simionato at gmail.com (Michele Simionato)
Date: 5 Aug 2004 07:32:15 -0700
Subject: Decorator syntax (was Re: PEP 318 - PyFIT comments)
References: <mailman.1162.1091660561.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4edc17eb.0408050632.58747082@posting.google.com>

"Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy)" <tdelaney at avaya.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1162.1091660561.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> Personally, I don't overly like the new syntax - I much preferred def
> func (args) [decorators] - and I would have preferred not to "waste" @
> for them, but I can definitely live with the decision. Some usable
> decorator syntax is IMO more important than none.

This also my opinion, more or less. It is just the "@" which is ugly.
Why not to overload (once more) the colon and write:
 
:classmethod
def func (cls, *args, **kw):
     pass

? Only half serious ...


      Michele Simionato


From fredrik at pythonware.com  Wed Aug 11 07:57:45 2004
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:57:45 +0200
Subject: Image
References: <76655b52.0408101216.4c227052@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfd1jq$jsk$1@sea.gmane.org>

Sheldon wrote:

> im = Image.fromstring('I', (81,81),array)
> gives the valueError: data not enough...
>
> The tutorial on Image leaves a lot to be desired.

the same can be said about your ability to cut and paste: the error message
is "not enough image data" and means exactly what it says.

(in other words, the "array" variable contains less than 81*81*4 bytes)

are you running this on Windows?  if so, you need to specify that the file
contains binary data when you open it:

        f = open(filename, "wb") # open for writing
        f = open(filename, "rb") # open for reading

see

    http://docs.python.org/lib/built-in-funcs.html#l2h-25

for more details.

</F>





From jonaskoelker at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 10 17:16:01 2004
From: jonaskoelker at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Jonas_K=F6lker?=)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 23:16:01 +0200
Subject: measuring 1/100th seconds, what function?
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.10.21.16.01.728029@yahoo.com>

Hello.

I'm doing a Rubik's Cube timer, so I need a function to measure 100ths of
a second. I've browsed through the library reference of python.org, but I
didn't find anything that struck me as 'the perfect fit'. Either it was
system dependent, or it was too grainy (lo-res), or... something else.

so, I need a function which satisfies (in order of importance):

1. It can be used to measure time in the range of up to approximately 1
minute with an accuracy down to 100th-seconds (that's 60000~65536
different values). Better accuracy is a bonus, longer time-frame is a
bigger bonus.

2. it must run on any version of windows upon which python 2.4 can run
(target systems), and run on my system (debian/sarge) __ without the need
for changing the code dependent of environment; any supported
non-Linux/non-windows sytem is a bonus, other supported Linuxes (sp?) is a
bigger bonus (however, I don't expect that it will _not_ work dependent of
distroes)

I'm sorry for asking about such a triviality, but hey, if I can't get it
by RTFM, TFM is buggy ;)

Jonas K?lker



From pythongnome at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 18 19:51:16 2004
From: pythongnome at hotmail.com (Lucas Raab)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 23:51:16 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<2ohhqhFa1qgmU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <UXRUc.2111$2L3.682@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>

Yeah, I did a non-closable window number on a friend on mine. Needless to
say he was quite annoyed.

"Leif K-Brooks" <eurleif at ecritters.biz> wrote in message
news:2ohhqhFa1qgmU1 at uni-berlin.de...
> Lucas Raab wrote:
> > One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> > Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> > about....
>
> I'm 13, I'll be 14 in 89 days. I started doing somewhat real programming
> at around 11; I had done silly things in a VB-like language for Mac OS
> before then, mostly "viruses" that displayed a full-screen window with
> no close button, but hadn't written any code.




From dlp at itasoftware.com  Fri Aug 20 09:38:44 2004
From: dlp at itasoftware.com (Dan Pierson)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 06:38:44 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<Xns954AB8327A955arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.7>
	<wXfVc.4524$Jn5.3509@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2b5834f8.0408200538.67b76d3a@posting.google.com>

J2 J2 J2


From npat at efault.net  Fri Aug 13 08:47:54 2004
From: npat at efault.net (Nick Patavalis)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 12:47:54 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<411C8CD9.32F39C2@mega-nerd.com> <411C93B2.2027B48B@alcyone.com>
Message-ID: <slrnchpe3q.7ld.npat@gray.efault.net>

On 2004-08-13, Erik Max Francis <max at alcyone.com> wrote:
> Erik de Castro Lopo wrote:
>> 
>> Its called type inferencing and since there is at least one working
>> implementation, it can't be THAT hard.
>
> That's actually the kind of thing that is planned for Python with
> Starkiller, however silly a project name that might be.
>

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thing that starkiller produces
optimized code (i.e. native code) only if it can unambiguously
inference the types a-priori, and there are cases (in a dymanically
typed language like python) where this is impossible. In these cases,
I believe, starkiller does nothing. Are there any plans for treating
such cases? And how?

/npat




From me at privacy.net  Mon Aug 16 11:10:30 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Richard Hanson)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:10:30 -0700
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1637.1092428855.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<30260531.0408131853.18ec2446@posting.google.com>
	<LIqdnd7Jz9Mspr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <3ke1i05c3cq93vhdmdigj3pudru9n99a4j@4ax.com>

[Peter Hansen wrote:]

>simo wrote:
>
>> I'm a Perl programmer at heart - well that and PHP, plus the odd
>> dabbling in C/C++/C# etc.
>> 
>> Anyway, the thought of indentation instead of curly braces really put
>> me off to start with, 
>
>Ah, good.  Someone who was really there, instead of hearsay.
>
> [...]
>
>I'm curious why more people don't have "neat!" as their very
>first thought on encountering this, rather than "yuck!".

[farther down-thread Peter Hansen wrote:]

>For example, if 90% of people who have the "indentation rash"
>had previous encounters with FORTRAN IV, then it ought to
>be possible to make it obvious in the early documentation
>(tutorial, intro page, etc) that Python is not FORTRAN and
>doesn't suffer from the same limitations with respect to
>indentation/whitespace significance as FORTRAN does.

Not sure if I'm an unqualified newbie, but I'm a relative Python
newbie. When I first encountered Python's indentation, my
reaction was: "Of course!" -- in a seriously head-slapping way.

Neat! -- is putting my reaction mildly. :-)

I went on to learn more Python, and now I'm almost a Python
zealot. :-)

However, as I mentioned above, I may not qualify as a newbie in
the context of this discussion. I started out programming on IBM
1410s and related mainframes way back in 1968 by punching
programs into stacks of IBM (Hollerith) cards. The first language
we learned in our, first-in-the-district (Portland, Oregon),
high-school "computer" course *was* FORTRAN IV -- laboriously
keypunched into those cards where different columns had different
meanings. (I don't quite remember all the details. I still have
boxes of my rubber-banded-together stacks of cards around,
somewhere, but I'm too lazy to go look for them, now. <wink>)

In any event, I went on to learn React (a PL/1 variant),
miscellaneous BASICs, various desktop and handheld HP calculator
languages, HP71B Basic (very advanced -- had NaN, Inf, and such),
Forth, C, C++, Smalltalk, newer Fortrans, and so on until finally
hitting upon Python several years ago.

For me, a not insignificant part of Python's genius *is* the
indentation. When I used C and C++ I was a stickler (pedant? :-)
) for "proper" indentation -- which was a PITA. So -- I took to
Python's indentation like a duck to water.

That all said, I don't know if my story is the type of story a
typical Python newbie would present, but since this thread has
been going on for several day, I thought I'd add another
datapoint. :-)

ole-dinosaur-ly y'rs,
Richard

-- 
R Hanson [The mangled email addie below works.]
sick<P0INT>ole<PERI0D>fart<PIE_DEC0_SYNTAX>newsguy<MARK>com 


From ian at cottee.org  Wed Aug 25 22:43:41 2004
From: ian at cottee.org (Ian J Cottee)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:43:41 +0900
Subject: Idle problem
In-Reply-To: <6haXc.183583$8_6.163380@attbi_s04>
References: <6haXc.183583$8_6.163380@attbi_s04>
Message-ID: <pbvvv1-b5k.ln1@suse.zobbo.org>

Brent W. Hughes wrote:
> Sometimes when I try to start up idle.py (by double-clicking on the icon), I
> get the message:
> Python subprocess socket error: Connection refused, retrying....
> It repeats the message a couple of times and then prints:
> Connection to Idle failed, exiting.
> 
> Any idea what's going on?

http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/Message/python-dev/1748187

Doesn't offer any conclusions but might point you in the right direction.

Ian


From export at hope.cz  Tue Aug 10 03:06:50 2004
From: export at hope.cz (Lad)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 00:06:50 -0700
Subject: Apache web server and CGI
References: <81a41dd.0408090447.7f27a092@posting.google.com>
	<10hf2ugjngver5e@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <81a41dd.0408092306.264beed@posting.google.com>

Jeffrey Froman <jeffrey at I.slack> wrote in message news:<10hf2ugjngver5e at corp.supernews.com>...
> Lad wrote:
> 
> > How can I set up Apache web server to use Python for CGI processing( for
> > file *.py). Thanks for help
> 
> A simple method would be to include the line:
> 
> AddHandler cgi-script .py
> 
> in your httpd.conf. This should work fine so long as your .py files start
> with a proper invocation of the python interpreter (i.e.,
> #!/usr/bin/python). You might also want to look at mod_python
> (http://www.modpython.org/).
> 
> Jeffrey

Thank you Jeffrey and Peter for help.
I added AddHandler cgi-script .py to httpd.conf
I also tried to run the test script as Peter suggested but the Apache
says( in error log)

[Tue Aug 10 08:51:32 2004] [error] [client 127.0.0.1] (2)No such file
or directory: script not found or unable to stat: c:/program
files/apache group/apache/cgi-bintest.py

The name of script is test.py and is in cgi-bin (Apache subdirectory).

I tried to run the script from IE browser with the command 
http://localhost/cgi-bin/test.py

but without success. I use XP home edition.

Apache runs without problem as I could check it by inserting
http://localhost/

BTW, how can I set up a different directory for cgi scripts? For
example I would like to have all my scripts in
C:\Scripts\MyScripts

Thank you for help
LAd


From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 12 13:36:32 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:36:32 -0400
Subject: Pyhton Interpreter Startup time
In-Reply-To: <30260531.0408120829.27a536bc@posting.google.com>
References: <mailman.1556.1092304607.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<30260531.0408120829.27a536bc@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <EvadnaKm3bI9N4bcRVn-iQ@powergate.ca>

simo wrote:

> Neil Benn <benn at cenix-bioscience.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1556.1092304607.5135.python-list at python.org>...
>>          I'm looking at a small app which would need a very quick 
>>startup time for the Python interpreter.  It doesn't do much (copying 
>>and caching of files, no GUI) but I need the Python interpreter to start 
>>up very quickly (<1 second on a Windows box).  Is there a way to have a 
>>'stripped' down Python interpreter which can start up very quickly on a 
>>windows box. 
> 
> This has been discussed before, there's definitely something "odd"
> about the Windows startup time in comparison to the UNIX "instant"
> startup.

Discussed, but not to a satisfactory conclusion I think.

The fact that some of us have near instantaneous startup times,
consistently (whether immediately after reboot or not) on Windows,
even with older machines, suggests strongly that those who do
not have something *wrong* with their system.

I don't recall the OP in the last thread that discussed this
ever coming back to report on exactly what OS and CPU etc.
he was using, and whether network issues might be involved,
etc, so until someone can prove otherwise, I think it's
safe to assume that anyone with a slow startup on Windows
has a misconfiguration or is doing something wrong.

-Peter


From just at xs4all.nl  Sun Aug 29 16:21:07 2004
From: just at xs4all.nl (Just)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 22:21:07 +0200
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<1LMXc.67190$UTP.37420@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj7a9r.g7ec5a1g89rj0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<m3wtzk4562.fsf@g2ctech.com>
	<just-18D650.10163828082004@news1.news.xs4all.nl>
	<m3sma5zqx0.fsf@g2ctech.com>
Message-ID: <just-BA4B64.22210729082004@news1.news.xs4all.nl>

In article <m3sma5zqx0.fsf at g2ctech.com>, Jorge Godoy <godoy at ieee.org> 
wrote:

> Just <just at xs4all.nl> writes:
> 
> > The zipimport module will never write to the zip archive, so for most 
> > efficient imports, you have to store .pyc data in there yourself. 
> > zipimport is mostly meant as a repackaging tool, and typical zip files 
> > only contain .pyc files.
> 
> They aren't created even outside of the zip archive, this is what I
> meant ;-)

But since .pyc's are always generated in the same directory as the .py 
files, where else would you expect them to be generated?

Just


From skip at pobox.com  Wed Aug  4 18:22:48 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 17:22:48 -0500
Subject: Confused about pep 318
In-Reply-To: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <16657.25016.75424.143284@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Edward> But I have no idea what the proposed syntax is(!!) In
    Edward> particular, there is no mention of '@' directly on the page
    Edward> http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0318.html

Anthony Baxter said yesterday on python-dev he was going to attend to that
shortly.  As in many other software efforts, the code has moved along a bit
faster than the documentation (after all, what's more fun to do?).  I
believe the only significant differences from a pure functional
documentation standpoint to apply to the PEP are the syntax and the issue of
decorated classes (I don't think support for decorated classes will make
it).  By way of parallel examples here's how the new syntax corresponds to
the syntax I used in the last revision of the PEP:

#1 from the PEP:  Given this function:

    def onexit(f):
        import atexit
        atexit.register(f)
        return f

the new syntax will be:

    @onexit
    def func():
        ...
                
#4 from the PEP:  Given these functions:

    def accepts(*types):
        def check_accepts(f):
            assert len(types) == f.func_code.co_argcount
            def new_f(*args, **kwds):
                for (a, t) in zip(args, types):
                    assert isinstance(a, t), \
                           "arg %r does not match %s" % (a,t)
                return f(*args, **kwds)
            return new_f
        return check_accepts

    def returns(rtype):
        def check_returns(f):
            def new_f(*args, **kwds):
                result = f(*args, **kwds)
                assert isinstance(result, rtype), \
                       "return value %r does not match %s" % (result,rtype)
                return result
            return new_f
        return check_returns

the new syntax will be:

    @accepts(int, (int,float))
    @returns((int,float))
    def func(arg1, arg2):
        return arg1 * arg2

I believe the order of application of the above decorators would be like so:

    func = accepts(int, (int, float))(returns((int, float))(func)

    Edward> I confess that I don't understand this remark at all.  How has
    Edward> it happened that so many people are confused about this
    Edward> proposal?  And if everything is so clear, why isn't the clarity
    Edward> reflected in pep 318 itself?

There was a lot of discussion on python-dev, but none very recently (last
month or so).  Guido indicated there that he brought up the topic at
EuroPython in his keynote talk and entertained discussion from the floor.
Based upon that discussion he decided to go with the @-decorator syntax.
Since EuroPython most/all the discussion went on in private email or on
irc.  I think it would be nice if this conversation was summarized in the
PEP, but that will have to come from one of the participants.

Skip


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 21 17:29:04 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 17:29:04 -0400
Subject: __metaclass__ and __author__ are already decorators
In-Reply-To: <41279C2A.9060906@yahoo.it>
References: <cg7mo9$r8r$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<4127813F.9020707@yahoo.it>	<cg84dk$r8r$6@sea.gmane.org>
	<41279C2A.9060906@yahoo.it>
Message-ID: <cg8er0$r8r$10@sea.gmane.org>

Paolo Veronelli wrote:

> 
> 
> Paul Morrow wrote:
> 
>> Paolo Veronelli wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Paul Morrow wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thinking about decorators, and looking at what we are already doing 
>>>> in our Python code, it seems that __metaclass__, __author__, 
>>>> __version__, etc. are all examples of decorators.  So we already 
>>>> have a decorator syntax.  What is the compelling reason to invent a 
>>>> new one?  And if we do, what's to become of the old one?
> 
> 
>>>
>>>     Thanks for pointing out another unpythonicity. Paolino
>>>
>>
>> Is that what I did?  Isn't assigning values to __xxx__ attributes 
>> pythonic?  
> 
> 
> Really but instructing the interpreter with assigning to special 
> attributes is not a well classified operation:
> 
> __author__ & company are just settable/gettable (the don't instruct the 
> interpreter)  this is surface  level.
> 
> __getitem__ (in ex)  instruct the intepreter on how to parse [] sintax 
> (am I wrong?).So __lt__ and the alike :that's what I call a syntactic 
> level.This is more or less well defined (and so pythonic):operators can 
> be defined like this.
> 
> __metaclass__  doesn't seem to be placed in the first two categories.It 
> instruct the interpreter on a deeper level (in my vision),an actual 
> level which I think is well related with decorator level.If I am 
> right,this speciality of an only attribute makes it unpythonic.It has to 
> be part of a class
> of attributes ,which would be nice to be  populated just (at least) to 
> make its instructing position clearer.

And this would give us more attributes in that (__metaclass__) category. 
  But there mere existence of one such attribute makes similar things 
pythonic, I believe.

__author__, __getitem__, and __metaclass__ may be at different 'levels' 
as you put it, but they are all in the same specification 'dimension' 
--- the meta information dimension.  And this is the same dimension that 
decorators exist in.




From apardon at forel.vub.ac.be  Tue Aug 31 03:46:45 2004
From: apardon at forel.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 07:46:45 GMT
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
	<dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
	<aN5Xc.205341$M95.157379@pd7tw1no>
	<1gj4fb5.607xsc51izh8N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xllg25lkt.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj4u3a.12ttba9fynd6uN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncis152.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<1gj5bp4.qhup8tldmvebN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncitrk7.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<1gj6cfv.nv3fziwoc81nN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrnciuchh.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<1gj6pih.6lolffzvm5ucN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <slrncj8b75.kp.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>

Op 2004-08-27, Alex Martelli schreef <aleaxit at yahoo.com>:
> Antoon Pardon <apardon at forel.vub.ac.be> wrote:
>    ...
>> > It should be pretty obvious, I think.  So, if you want to
>> > get an AttributeError exception when 'a' is a tuple or str, a.extend(b)
>> > is clearly the way to go -- if you want para-polymorphic behavior in
>> > those cases, a+=b.  Isn't it obvious, too?
>> 
>> No it isn't obvious. No design is so stupid that you can't find
>> an example for it's use. That you have found a specific use
>> here doesn't say anything.
>
> I can silently suffer MOST spelling mistakes, but please, PLEASE do not
> write "it's" where you mean "its", or viceversa: it's the most horrible
> thing you can do to the poor, old, long-suffering English language, and
> it makes me physically ill.  Particularly in a paragraph as content-free
> as this one of yours that I've just quoted, where you're really saying
> nothing at all, you could AT LEAST make an attempt to respect the rules
> of English, if not of logic and common sense.
>
> On to the substance: your assertion is absurd.  You say it isn't obvious
> that a.extend(b) will raise an exception if a is bound to a str or
> tuple, yet it patently IS obvious, given that str and tuple do not have
> a method named 'extend'.

That is a non sequitur, the fact that something is a given, doesn't
make that something obvious. I dare say that if you have two parts
of equal code, one that uses += and the other that uses extend,
it will not be obvious to the reader that you want to first
code to work only with lists and the other with strings and tupples
too. He can probably figure it out but IMO it is not the most clear
way to make that disticntion.


> Whether that's stupid or clever is a
> completely different issue, and one which doesn't make your "No it isn't
> obvious" assertion any closer to sanity one way or another.

IMO, obvious means, that it is the first thing that comes to mind
when someone reads the code. IMO it is not obvious in that sense.

-- 
Antoon Pardon


From beliavsky at 127.0.0.1  Mon Aug 23 13:39:26 2004
From: beliavsky at 127.0.0.1 (beliavsky@aol.com)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 12:39:26 -0500
Subject: function taking scalar or list argument
Message-ID: <412a2bce$1_1@127.0.0.1>


I can define a function that transforms either a scalar or each element in
a list as follows:

def twice(x):
    try:
        return map(twice,x)
    except:
        return 2*x

print twice(3) # 6
print twice([1,4,9]) # [2,8,18]

Is this good style? I intend to define many functions like this and want
to use the right method. Thanks.



----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---


From knowlj at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 10 11:41:34 2004
From: knowlj at hotmail.com (Jared)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 08:41:34 -0700
Subject: Mechwarrior Python Game
References: <f4844ba0.0408090918.745ac713@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1427.1092114052.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <f4844ba0.0408100741.11a26335@posting.google.com>

Thanks for your help Pete and Reid.  I'll let you know what I come up with.


From fumanchu at amor.org  Wed Aug 25 10:14:51 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 07:14:51 -0700
Subject: Python future performance and speed
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E69@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Jacek Generowicz wrote:
> Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> writes:
> 
> > The last time I checked, Java and C++ (even C) were widely
> > considered to be high level languages.
> 
> The fact many people hold an erroneous belief, does not make said
> belief any less erroneous.
> 
> > Has someone been raising the bar while I wasn't looking?
> 
> The developers of all the truly high-level languages ?
> 
> There was a time when assembler was high-level.

Someday, even Python will be a low-level language.

;)


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From asif at go-away-spammer.com  Wed Aug 25 12:45:24 2004
From: asif at go-away-spammer.com (Player)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:45:24 +0100
Subject: Begginers questions on different distributions of py
References: <cgga5m$v1n$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<b74e43f1.0408242301.49601f30@posting.google.com>
	<cgi7ot$f6u$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> <412cafd6$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
Message-ID: <cgifn8$4dk$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>

Firstly, it was my fist time using sourceforge, and I did what any beginner
would do, I dl the fist or rather top most entry in the list of available
packages for win32 build 202, doing so while thinking that the msot current
version was goign to be the one at top most position.

As it so happens, that was wrong, and I can now see clearly that there are 3
entries for builds of win32 relating to python builds 2.2, 2.3, and 2.4;
that wasn't clear when I first visited the dl page.

I happen to think they make a rather simple process, an over complicated
matter at sourceforge; which is down to their page not being very beginner
friendly.

Any-ways enough of that, I did manage to get what I wanted after viewing the
page again -after reading your curt & rude reply-. and as a result I owe you
thanks for pointing out my error. TY

However...

Homework?
Like I didn't already have a good look through some webpages via a google
search.

Repeating of my question?
Hardly, I simply added it into another post I happened to send out on
another matter, it seemed wise to add it to that post also.
Posts in news groups get lost FAST! in the multitude of posts coming after
themselves.
 I have found that it is wise to renew questions/posts on a regular basis.

As to the flavour of your reply,,,well all I am going to say to that is...
I am sooo not going to rise to the bait.

M.B




From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 31 08:47:38 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 08:47:38 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <20040830024246.GA2159@unpythonic.net>
References: <e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>	<eppstein-55AD8F.13583829082004@news.service.uci.edu>	<cgtsbi$7en$2@sea.gmane.org>
	<20040830024246.GA2159@unpythonic.net>
Message-ID: <ch1s18$hvr$2@sea.gmane.org>

The big impact of this proposal is that __xxx__ variables defined 
immediately following the docstring (if present) would cease to become 
local variables.  This of course has the possiblity of breaking existing 
code.  But I don't believe that developers routinely use such names for 
local variables, so I don't believe that there will actually be much 
broken code should this change be implemented.

Jeff Epler wrote:
> In your proposed model, what does the following code do?
>     def f():
>         __var__ = 3
>         return __var__
>     f.__var__ += 1
>     print f()
> 

Only assignments to __xxx__ variables at the very start of a function 
def would have this special semantics.  So your return statement would 
be referencing a name (__var__) that doesn't exist in the function's 
local variable namespace.

Easier to accept if we use a more likely variable name for the magic 
variable.

     def f():
         __version__ = 3
         return __version__
     f.__version__ += 1
     print f()



> What about any of the following:
>     def g():
>         if True:
>             __var__ = 4
>     print g.__var__
> 

__var__ = 4      # creates a local variable because
                  # the assignment isn't at top
                  # of function def.  But probably
                  # should generate a warning for
                  # giving a magic name to a local
                  # variable.


>     x = 3
>     def h(x):
>         __var__ = x*x
>         return x*x
>     print h(2), h.__var__
>

In __var__ = x*x, x is not in the function's namespace (it's a local 
variable), so x is undefined.  Easier to visualize if we make it 
__version__ = x*x

Same basic idea for your other examples.


> 
>     def p():
>         import os as __os__
> 

__os__ would be a local variable (since this is not a simple assignment, 
i.e. using an equal sign).  __os__ is not a good name for a local 
variable, so interpretor should probably generate a warning.



>     def q(): # BUG x doesn't get the proper metaclass in 2.3!
>         class __metaclass__(type): pass
>         class x: pass
>         # assert x's metaclass is __metaclass__
> 

This would do whatever it does now.

Paul



From fumanchu at amor.org  Mon Aug 23 10:44:46 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 07:44:46 -0700
Subject: J2 paper 0.2.1
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E3B@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

How the @#$%^& did your name get in the "From" header on _my_ email,
Paul?

You've got your chocolate in my peanut butter. Funky.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org

> -----Original Message-----
> From: python-list-bounces+fumanchu=amor.org at python.org 
> [mailto:python-list-bounces+fumanchu=amor.org at python.org] On 
> Behalf Of Paul McGuire
> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 7:40 AM
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Re: J2 paper 0.2.1
> 
> 
> "Robert Brewer" <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote in message
> news:mailman.2201.1093271860.5135.python-list at python.org...
> Colin J. Williams wrote:
> > One nit picking comment on Robert Brewer's document: An
> > annotation is a
> > transformation of a function, as a change to the flow of control is.
> 
> I'd like someone to analyze that further. "Transform", like the word
> "change", can mean almost anything in English. However, I find the use
> of the term in programs to generally mean either coerce/convert/cast
> between types, or some other mechanism whereby one object is supplied,
> and another object returned. That is, "transform" affects 
> Being/"is" as
> opposed to Attribute/"has".
> 
> However, neither your "gut feeling" nor mine about the issue is
> enough--we need a more rigorous heuristic to decide. Finding precedent
> would be a good start, if anyone wants to try.
> 
> 
> Robert Brewer
> MIS
> Amor Ministries
> fumanchu at amor.org
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 


From stephen.thorne at gmail.com  Sun Aug 29 18:59:17 2004
From: stephen.thorne at gmail.com (Stephen Thorne)
Date: 29 Aug 2004 15:59:17 -0700
Subject: Implementations of Multi-Methods and Tail Call Elimination (Or how
	I stopped worrying and learned to love decorators)
Message-ID: <3e8ca5c8.0408291459.6570c936@posting.google.com>

Decorators have been getting lots of air-time at the moment, but only
really the syntax. After a short discussion on irc the other night I
decided to download python2.4 from experimental and write out some
truely worthy decorator hacks.

I implemented multimethods as a warm-up, and then implemented tail
call elimination. Presented here is a brief synopsis of both, and then
the implementations.
http://thorne.id.au/users/stephen/scripts/multimethods.py
http://thorne.id.au/users/stephen/scripts/tailcall.py

Multimethods come first, because I wrote them first. I don't really
like the implemetation - I'm sure it can be improved. I especially
dislike having to use the @staticmethod decorator, and having to have
the functions in alphabetical order.

class fact(MultiMethod):
    @when(lambda x:x==0)
    @takes(int)
    @staticmethod
    def a(x):
        return 1

    @when(lambda x:x>0)
    @takes(int)
    @staticmethod
    def b(x):
        return x * fact(x-1)

    @staticmethod
    def c(x):
        raise ValueError("Invalid argument to fact()")
fact = fact()

Okay. Lots of sugar required to do it, but look! its a multimethod!
fact(10.1) raises an error, fact(0) == 1 and fact(5) == 120.

The implementation looks like this:
def takes(*arg, **kwargs):
    def _(f):
        def check(*x, **xs):
            def test(a,b):
                return b is None or isinstance(a,b)
            if len([True for (a,b) in zip(x, arg) if not test(a,b)]):
                raise NextMethodException()
            if len([True for (a,b) in kwargs.keys() if not
test(xs.get(b,None),lb)]):
                raise NextMethodException()
            return f(*x, **xs)
        return check
    return _

def when(f):
    def _(d):
        def check(x):
            if not f(x):
                raise NextMethodException()
            return d(x)
        return check
    return _

class NextMethodException(Exception):
    pass

class MultiMethod:
    def __call__(self, *arg, **kwargs):
        for i in dir(self):
            if i[0] == '_': continue
            try:
                return getattr(self, i)(*arg, **kwargs)
            except NextMethodException: pass

Okay, thats multimethods. I really don't like the implementation all
that much, I'm sure there's a better way to do it than using
exceptions like that. Suggestions?

Next is tail call elimination. This is an example usage:

from tailcall import tail, call, eliminate
import operator
@eliminate
def fact(n):
     if n == 0: return 1
     return tail(operator.mul, n, call(n-1))

fact(10000) is a really larger number by the way.

Now the implementation:
class call(object):
    def __init__(self, *x):
        self.x = x

class tail(object):
    def __init__(self, op, args=[]):
        self.op = op
        self.x = list(args)
        self.value = None
        self.parent = None

    def evaluate(self):
        top = current = self
        while not current is None:
            if len([True for elem in current.x if type(elem) in (call,
tail)]):
                for n,elem in enumerate(current.x):
                    if type(elem) is tail and elem.value:
                        elem = current.x[n] = elem.value
                    elif type(elem) == call:
                        elem = current.x[n] = self.op(*elem.x)
                    elif type(elem) == tail:
                        elem.parent = current
                        current = elem
            else:
                result = current.op(*current.x)
                if type(result) in (tail,call):
                    result.parent = current
                    current = result
                else:
                    current.value = result
                    current = current.parent
                    if current is top:
                        return result
Big ugly loop.

Before you try, it doesn't work on ackerman's. Patches accepted.

Comments? Improvements? Suggestions? Flames?

Regards,
Stephen Thorne.


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Thu Aug  5 15:42:41 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 15:42:41 -0400
Subject: Confused about pep 318
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1227.1091733523.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com><mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org><d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com><Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu><mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051249050.10473-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1227.1091733523.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051533460.13990-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Terry Reedy wrote:

> "Christopher T King" <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote in message
> news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051249050.10473-100000 at ccc6.wpi.edu...
> > That thread reaches no consensus,
> 
> To me this is evasion.

Well, it is.

> >That's because it was.  ...
> >There had previously been no public discussions about it.
> 
> You (agreeing with Steven) made a false accusation of something like
> dastardliness.  Just admit your mistake and move on.

(More evasion:) +10 points for using the word "dastardliness" in a
sentence.  +10 more for using it legitimately in a post on a computer
language mailing list.

> >other than, in his sole post in the thread, Guido stating
> >"I would love to see an implementation of this idea."
> 
> Hence, I was not surprised to see it in an alpha as an experimental feature
> which might or might not stay.

Indeed, I was comforted by a recent post of Guido's in python-dev:

 When I let Anthony check it in for 2.4a2, the plan was to see how it
 fares in a2 and a3, and possibly take it out in 2.4b1.

I was afraid that going in so close to 2.4b1, @ was in for good, but
knowing they may yet come out is good.



From martindemello at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 24 02:45:16 2004
From: martindemello at yahoo.com (Martin DeMello)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 06:45:16 GMT
Subject: functional library
Message-ID: <0uBWc.191260$M95.165005@pd7tw1no>

Is there any 'standard' library of functional extensions to python?
Basically stuff beyond the built in filter, map and reduce - e.g. find,
partition, any, all, etc.

martin


From yong at net.tamu.edu  Wed Aug  4 15:30:01 2004
From: yong at net.tamu.edu (Yong Wang)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 14:30:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Compiled C++ and Mysql codes run in python cgi script
Message-ID: <20040804193001.F39F31589B@net.tamu.edu>

Hi, All:
     We have a network management system written in C++, MysQL, and Hp
SNMP. It works in Solaris command line. When I wrote a similar
python codes which call compiled C++ and mysql  codes in solaris
command line, the comipled codes work fine in wraped python file. When
I change the python codes to web interface in python CGI script, I got
message
that "Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket
'/tmp/mysql.sock'"
How can I fix this problem because we want to migrate solaris command
line system to web access system ? The easiest way for me is directly
to call
compiled C++  and mysql codes (excutable) in python CGI scripts, then
post the run
results in website.
   Thank you very much in advance and I am looking forward to your
reply.

                  Yong



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 12:23:55 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 02:23:55 +1000
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <8umdnWXWJtRm7o7cRVn-uw@powergate.ca>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>	<2-SdnZCwNs1SwI_cRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1202.1091723710.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ceu88t$2at$1@bagan.srce.hr> <8umdnWXWJtRm7o7cRVn-uw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204080609237b401a86@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 08:05:15 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> I don't think the decorator names are ever keywords.  They are
> just arbitrary names bound to stuff... I suspect you would find
> people writing code like this instead:
> 
> sync = synchronized
> cm = classmethod
> 
> def @sync @cm x(self):
>     pass
> 
> (I'm not saying whether that's a good thing, just pointing it out.)

I'm happy to say that I think this looks horrible ;)


From Mr.KK at gmx.de  Fri Aug 20 08:36:01 2004
From: Mr.KK at gmx.de (Kolja Kube)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:36:01 +0200
Subject: My only complaint about Python
Message-ID: <4125F031.3050508@gmx.de>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

|> >> with the free Visual C++ Toolkit. Instructions are here:

|> all humbug. Visual C++ is nowhere near free, it's all proprietary.
|>
|> Klaus Schilling


It is free, but only free as in "free beer".

Kolja Kube

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gEhbS/tnsEgcJ2JPo1HHdUo=
=nt+U
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From jerf at jerf.org  Mon Aug 30 00:49:40 2004
From: jerf at jerf.org (Jeremy Bowers)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 04:49:40 GMT
Subject: regex into str
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408290203530.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<mailman.2571.1093744862.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408290406250.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<pan.2004.08.29.01.54.57.901288@jerf.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408291253300.1159-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.30.00.49.43.785083@jerf.org>

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 12:58:57 +0200, Peter Kleiweg wrote:

> That is not relevant. What matters is that a += 'b' does what it
> is supposed to do.

If you want to be that way, then fine. No, it doesn't do what it is
"supposed" to do, in the context you are discussing. It does not add a "b"
to the original string, it creates a new string containing the original
contents plus the new contents.

Let me refresh your memory: You are arguing that you should be able to
apply a division operator to a string to apply a regex to it. When people
told you it was impossible, because strings were immutable, you said that
a += "b" did what you wanted. In context, this was clearly a claim that
strings are mutable, although that is a translation of your claim from
what you said here:

  This works:

      a += 'x'

  So this should too:

      a /= 'x'

which was in reply to 

> Even if you could assign to str.__div__ (and this is very deliberately and
> specifically disallowed) you would end up disappointed, because strings
> are immutable.  That means there's nowhere to store "the last match",
> no way to mutate the string with the "/=" operator, and also that the
> interpreter is free to use the same storage for two equal strings.

Therefore, I say again: Your example does not do what you are implicitly
claiming it does. Therefore it is not a counter example to Jeff Epler's
(correct) claim. 

So when you say above "This works:", I'm saying, no, it doesn't, not in
the sense you were replying to Jeff. It is not mutating the string
originally referenced by a, you still can't do that, and your
attempted counterpoint has no force, no meaning. (Any other putative
meaning you would claim it had after the fact would simply be a
non-sequitor, in context.)

Any successful attempt to mutate a string (in pure Python) would
constitute a serious bug in Python. (Any successful mutation by a C
extension would constitute a major, Python-breaking bug in that extension.)



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 11:26:30 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 01:26:30 +1000
Subject: __name__ becoming read-write?
In-Reply-To: <7rhmi0d7cdg9r6ljvilgkep30tckl24nai@4ax.com>
References: <mailman.2205.1093275632.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<c94ki0dgh70ud7e1ok8sshlvg4pe96s4h8@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2211.1093279236.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<3b8ki0tlphodtt8ge8an274qp78ihp1i3n@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2223.1093282711.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ultki0h81hl8fmgd452tqsfqihv6hpvege@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2261.1093321637.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<8cdmi0dipgk5192li1p8mm2n1hls2hs7rl@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2279.1093354919.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7rhmi0d7cdg9r6ljvilgkep30tckl24nai@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082408267f33f213@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:00:35 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
> But all at a cost.  I would be comforted to hear you say something
> about the costs you perceive.  If you present it is all just a win,
> it becomes too easy to challenge your assessment. So easy, that even
> someone like myself can pull it off, at least to an extent - and at
> least in my own judgement.

_Any_ new feature has a cost - whether it is in the additional
training needed, the potential for truly horrendous hacks, the
backwards-incompatibility, or whatever else.

The additional training issue:
    One of my internal measures for evaluating new decorator syntax
options is that it be *obvious* that "this is something new". The
various ideas of "doing something wacky with a list" or "a magic
'decorate()' function" fail this test, for me. They're not obviously
doing something new.
    Following on from that, the new feature should be explainable in
the context of existing knowledge. The before-def decorator syntax is
easily explainable in this context. It might be that new python
programmers might not realise that a function or a method is just an
object, like any other, and can be treated just like any other object
- passed as an argument to a function, or whatever. If they've come
from a particularly limited language before Python, there might be a
bit of mental dissonance before they realise this, but they will
realise it eventually. And this is a good thing to realise - once you
"get" that everything's an object, you're on the path to understanding
Python well (I'd add as a footnote the understanding of what a
"variable name" actually means usually follows soon after this).

The potential for truly horrendous hacks:
    This is a given, and is the case for any new feature, particularly
one like decorators (or metaclasses, or descriptors, or ...). The
potential for nasty and clever hacks isn't a new thing - take, for
instance the "Don Beaudry hook" introduced for metaclasses way back in
Python 1.5. Jim Fulton took this small hole and drove a large truck
called ExtensionClass through it, leading to the brain-warping of
Acquisition. Or the current Zope3 Interfaces package, which uses a
truly nasty sys._getframe() hack. But in both those cases, end users
of the features don't have to care about the underlying nastiness,
they can just use the new features.
    Will people write unpleasant decorator functions? Sure. But the
same people probably write hideously complex __del__ methods on every
object, and don't understand why cyclic GC then doesn't work for them,
or why their destructors aren't being called reliably.  Hell, look at
the recent:
     class Argh(random.choice(dict,list)): 
         ....
thing posted by someone (mwh? I forget)

The backward incompatibility:
    I regard this as a non-issue. For starters, pretty much *every*
major release of Python has had some new feature that wasn't backwards
compatible. For example, generator expressions were also added to 2.4.
They will cause a SyntaxError in Python 2.3 and earlier. And I would
guess that genexprs will be used far far more often than decorators in
most codebases.
    If backwards compatibility *is* an issue, note that there's a
couple of solutions here. For starters, there's the maintenance
releases of the previous release. I'm being a complete
pain-in-the-arse with stopping any new features creeping into those
releases, for *damn* good reason. I'm trying to make sure that people
can get the benefits of bug fixes, without having their entire
codebase break. And once 2.4 final ships, I'll be cutting what I plan
to be the last of the 2.3 series, and moving on to 2.4.1. If you
really, really want to keep using 2.3, and this is a problem for you
(because you want the continuing stream of bugfixes), I'm happy to
help bring someone up to speed so that they can take on 2.3.6 and
onwards. (As should be obvious, I'm using "you" in the general sense
here).


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug  6 12:53:14 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 12:53:14 -0400
Subject: Finding a function name
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1286.1091809014.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA1E@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>
	<mailman.1286.1091809014.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <LO-dne3NMornKo7cRVn-uw@powergate.ca>

Tim Williams wrote:

> [ 1 step up from Newbie ]
> 
> How can I find a function's name from within the function?

Did you try Google yet?

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=group%3Acomp.lang.python+find+function+name

-Peter


From nid_oizo at yahoo.com_removethe_  Sat Aug 21 10:34:13 2004
From: nid_oizo at yahoo.com_removethe_ (Nicolas Fleury)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:34:13 -0400
Subject: decorator J4 - any objections?
In-Reply-To: <JBFVc.170325$J06.131509@pd7tw2no>
References: <cab22418.0408201006.16f163b2@posting.google.com>
	<H5ydnQFIZezZH7vcRVn-iQ@comcast.com>
	<10id2djglri8o15@corp.supernews.com>
	<JBFVc.170325$J06.131509@pd7tw2no>
Message-ID: <u2JVc.67958$Mt5.2303382@wagner.videotron.net>

Martin DeMello wrote:
> Perhaps J2 but with proposal L to call the decorator declaration
> something other than "decorate" - 'using' is the best I've seen so far,
> though it's still not perfect. Or another idea - how about inverting the
> meaning of 'as', and changing the form of the decorator declarations
> slightly? 
> 
> as:
>   classmethod
>   memoised
>   accepting (int, int)
>   returning (float)
> def foo(bar, baz):

But Guido already said he wanted to keep as for other meanings.

Regards,
Nicolas


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Thu Aug 26 05:39:30 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:39:30 GMT
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<bP9Xc.28243$v86.1203@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<P6iXc.44935$xi6.44366@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <mdiXc.44965$xi6.28547@fe2.texas.rr.com>

> (Interestingly, @ and 'per' are similar in that "12 @ $
>
>
ahem!

"12 @ $1.50" is shorthand for "12 at $1.50 per item" was what I meant to say
before I was interrupted!

"per" as a Latin word would help its adoption beyond English-speaking
regions.  It's meaning as "by" is consistent with the decorator notion that
foo() is modified _by_ the decorator methods before it is fully defined.

And Alex cites "per"s three-letter-ness, as a nice parallel to the
corresponding "def".

-- Paul
(now I'm really through)




From yong at net.tamu.edu  Thu Aug  5 11:54:47 2004
From: yong at net.tamu.edu (Yong Wang)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 10:54:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Python cgi script
Message-ID: <20040805155448.408C6158CC@net.tamu.edu>

Hi, All:
    I try to write a CGI script to post network traffic routing info in the web page.
I have successfully obtained traffic info from wraped python with C++ and MYSQL and 
SNMP code and output to a file. I need read a file which contain traffic info and 
post to web. In CGI script, I use:
file=open('/apps/www/htdocs/internal/nd/output1', 'r')
flag=0
while not flag
    aLine = file.readline()
    if aLine != "":
        print aLine
        print '\n'
    else:
        flag = 1
file.close()
print "</body>"
print "</html>" 
The output from print statement above in web can display, but  no line separation between different lines.
How can I preserve the orginal line format of the input file (space within a line and space between lines)? 
     Thank you very much for your help in advance.

     I am looking forward to receiving your reply.

            Yong



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 13:30:52 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 03:30:52 +1000
Subject: bdist_rpm problems, and my work around.
In-Reply-To: <m34qnhsdng.fsf@yahoo.com>
References: <m34qnhsdng.fsf@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408051030583787aa@mail.gmail.com>

On 05 Aug 2004 10:22:43 -0700, zirpu xunre pelxu <zirpu at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> python setup.py bdist_rpm
> 
> [...]
> 
> # eventually complains about the extra -debuginfo package.

This is fixed in 2.4alpha, and the fix will also be in 2.3.5.

Anthony


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 18:06:33 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:06:33 -0400
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
In-Reply-To: <3064b51d.0408161354.618056ef@posting.google.com>
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<RGwTc.37687$js3.13758840@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<LIqdndnJz9N_pr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<slrnci0vhb.k3.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<nbudnY5S8Jl2Kb3cRVn-oQ@powergate.ca>
	<3064b51d.0408161354.618056ef@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <59Odna2DCNZ2srzcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>

beliavsky at aol.com wrote:

> Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message news:<nbudnY5S8Jl2Kb3cRVn-oQ at powergate.ca>...
>>So did you indent your code such that consecutive lines were
>>not indented to the same identation level even when they were
>>conceptually, logically, *algorithmically* part of the same
>>block?
> 
> I think you are getting a little religious about indentation. 

You bet I am. :-)  Always have been...

> I mostly indent Python the way I'd indent Fortran, but there are some
> inflexibilities in Python:
> 
> (1) I use a blank line to separate functions. I don't like being
> forced to indent every line within the body of a function.

Hmm... without an example, I'm not sure what you suggest.  On
the face of it, not having every line indented would strike
me immediately as a serious formatting error that is highly
likely to affect the readability of the code.

> (2) Nested loops can *sometimes* be thought of as a single loop and
> indented that way. I don't think the indentation
> 
> do i=1,n
> do j=1,n
> do k=1,n
>    x(i,j,k) = some_func(i,j,k)
> end do
> end do
> end do
> 
> is necessarily bad. 

I do!  It doesn't show the structure of the code clearly enough.
If there are three loops, there should be three levels of nesting
so that the eye is immediately drawn to it and the mind can say
"aha... possible area for code improvement, look more closely".
Without the indentation, the eye will skip right over that when
scanning lots of text.  Probably other reasons too, but suffice
to say that I'd immediately reformat that in any code someone
in my group wrote.

> (3) Having a labelled end-of-loop statement lets you exit the desired
> number of nested loops in a clean way. In the following Fortran code
> you can exit any of the nested loops. How would you simulate this
> control flow in Python?
> 
> ido: do i=1,n
>    ! some code
>    if (foo) exit ido ! exit outer loop
>    jdo: do j=1,n
>       ! some code
>       if (boo) exit jdo ! exit middle loop
>       do k=1,n
>          ! some code
>          if (goo) exit ! exit inner loop
>       end do
>    end do jdo
> end do ido

Why with a custom exception, obviously.  But what does that have to do
with indentation?

-Peter


From walter at livinglogic.de  Thu Aug 26 07:15:29 2004
From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:15:29 +0200
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <3b2846c4.0408260237.182e749d@posting.google.com>
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<3b2846c4.0408260237.182e749d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <412DC651.6030102@livinglogic.de>

Using decorators for docstrings would look much better
with the J2 proposal:

using:
    """
    ...
    """
def foo(bar):
    ...

instead of

@doc("""
...
""")
def foo(bar):
    ...

(Of course this requires special support for a bare string
inside the using suite)

And folding would really be helpful with long docstrings.

Consider this a vote for the J2 proposal.

Bye,
    Walter D?rwald




From parano at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 12:04:07 2004
From: parano at gmail.com (Parano)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 09:04:07 -0700
Subject: Boa Constructor error
Message-ID: <4712d252.0408260804.c69cfee@posting.google.com>

Hi

I have a recurrent error in Boa Constructor, especially when I try to
activate code completion: a message box reads "UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii'
codec can't decode byte 0xaa in position 52: ordinal not in range(128)"
I couldn't find any google resource on that error.

I have Python 2.3.3 with Boa Construtor 0.3.1 on Mandrake Linux 10.
wxPython is from wxPythonGTK-py2.3-2.5.2.7-RH9.i386.rpm
I also tried wxPythonGTK2-py2.3-2.5.2.7-RH9.i386.rpm but had the same error.
Those RPMs are from www.wxpython.org where it says that "install and use on
my Mandrake 9.2 system without any troubles."

Any tip on this? Thanks in advance


From __peter__ at web.de  Sun Aug 22 12:00:54 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 18:00:54 +0200
Subject: unicodedata name for \u000a
References: <mailman.2120.1093116249.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408212145180.1131-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<u8yc7mu4i.fsf@broadpark.no>
	<412869bf$0$24814$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<ufz6f2sue.fsf@broadpark.no>
Message-ID: <cgafvm$p8a$07$1@news.t-online.com>

Tor Iver Wilhelmsen wrote:

> "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> writes:
> 
>> No. <control> is not a character name. The unicodedata.name function
>> returns the official character name, so it MUST NOT return an alias
>> (which rules out your second alternative).
> 
> Then why not return None or the empty string instead of raising an
> exception?

What's wrong with

>>> import unicodedata
>>> unicodedata.name(u"\u000a", "my default value")
'my default value'

Peter



From cmkleffner at gmx.de  Wed Aug 18 03:36:53 2004
From: cmkleffner at gmx.de (cmkl)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 00:36:53 -0700
Subject: drop into the interpreter
References: <MoPSc.848$PG2.811334@twister.tampabay.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3b091a1c.0408172336.2883bc91@posting.google.com>

"Hoang Do" <hoang at jotsite.com> wrote in message news:<MoPSc.848$PG2.811334 at twister.tampabay.rr.com>...
> is there a facility to inspect the run-time of a python script?
> Essentially, it would execute a script to a set specific point and then drop
> into the interpreter.  Something like a "Stop" or "Break"?
> 
> Hoang Do
> hoang at jotsite.com

You can use my recipe from the Python Cookbook:
http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/285214
import the code object called prompt:

from prompt import prompt

and 'break' your code at any location with:

exec prompt

The control flow of your program breaks at this location and
pops up a interpreter which is operating the current scope
of your program. With CTRL-D you can continue with your program.

example: (prompttest.py)
========================

if __name__=='__main__': 
    from prompt import prompt

    def my_func():
        exec prompt       # exec prompt inside a function

    class prompt_test:
        def test_method(self):
            self.dummy = 'dummy'
            exec prompt   # exec prompt inside a method
    
    # 1: exec prompt inside a method
    prompt_test().test_method()
    
    # 2: exec prompt inside a function
    my_func()
    
    # 3: exec prompt inside the modules global scope
    exec prompt

example session:
================

python prompttest.py

prompt in test_method() at prompttest.py:10  -  continue with CTRL-D
>>> dir()                   # we are in a methods scope
['_prompt', 'self']
>>> print self              # and the instance is ...
<__main__.prompt_test instance at 0x008DFEB8>
>>> self.black = 'adder'            # add an attribute to the instance
>>> self.__class__.adder = 'black'  # add an attribute to the class
>>> dir(self)
['__doc__', '__module__', 'adder', 'black', 'dummy', 'test_method']
>>> for i in (1,2):         # test a multiline command
...    print i
...
1
2
>>> dir()                   # btw: the '_prompt' object will be
deleted later on
['_prompt', 'i', 'self']
>>> ^D
--- continue ----

prompt in my_func() at prompttest.py:5  -  continue with CTRL-D
>>> dir()                   # nothing interesting in this fuctions
scope
['_prompt']
>>> globals().keys()        # a little bit more in globals()
['prompt', '__builtins__', '__file__', 'prompt_test', 'my_func',
'__name__', '__doc__']
>>> monty = 'python'        # this would vanish at the end of the
function
>>> ^D
--- continue ----

prompt in __main__ at prompttest.py:19  -  continue with CTRL-D
>>> dir()                   # no python anymore - or was it monty?
['__builtins__', '__doc__', '__file__', '__name__', '_prompt',
'my_func', 'prompt', 'prompt_test']
>>> dir(prompt_test)        # our adder attribute is still there
['__doc__', '__module__', 'adder', 'test_method']
>>> print prompt_test().adder    # and adder is still black ...
black
>>> ^D
--- continue ----


From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Tue Aug 31 03:03:32 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 00:03:32 -0700
Subject: xmlrpclib
References: <413409c3$0$22823$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <2hkd02-v7v.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

Graeme Matthew wrote:
> Just wanted to know if anyone knows if xmlrpclib is scalable i.e can
> handle many / asynchronous calls.

You should specify what goal it is you are trying to achieve.  For example
it isn't clear if you are talking about the server end or the client
end.

Additionally you haven't said how far apart the client and server are.
(Same machine? Same LAN? Same continent?)

xmlrpc is not asynchronous.  It is a request/response model.  Each request
gets exactly one response.  There is no method for sending data outside
of that.  For example the server end can't send random event messages
without the client end polling for them.

And what do you mean by handle?  Is that a speed question, a reliability
question, a size of data structures question?

Lastly the current Python xmlrpc implementation, both client and
server end makes one network connection per request/response pair
and then closes it.

Roger 




From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 22:22:42 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 22:22:42 -0400
Subject: decorator J4 - any objections?
In-Reply-To: <7xacwpb5wq.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
References: <cab22418.0408201006.16f163b2@posting.google.com>	<e8-dnS55wpftCrvcRVn-sQ@cablespeedwa.com>
	<7xacwpb5wq.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <cg6bli$qpf$4@sea.gmane.org>

Paul Rubin wrote:

> Jeffrey Froman <Jeffrey at Fro.man> writes:
> 
>>>   def func(arg1, arg2)
>>>       @version("Added in 2.4")
>>>       @returns(None)
>>>   as:
>>>       """Docstring could be here, or in decorator part above"""
>>>       # body goes here
>>
>>I like this better than the current proposal because it reads from top to
>>bottom, and flows like a typical conditional.
>>
>>Before function writing the decorators whereas like reads this.
> 
> 
> J4 is my favorite of the enumerated proposals I remember, so I'll
> "vote" for it, but I still think something better should be possible.

It seems to me that we've had decorators all along (if we expand the 
definition a little), for example __metaclass__ sure looks like a class 
decorator.  So how about...

     def func(arg1, arg2):
         """Docstring goes here, as normal."""
         __version__ = 'Added in 2.4'
         __returns__ = None
         # function body goes here

     def returns(func, *args):
         """Docstring for 'returns' decorator."""
         __decorator__ = True
         # body of decorator goes here




From noone at here.com  Mon Aug 16 09:43:36 2004
From: noone at here.com (M. Clift)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:43:36 +0100
Subject: random / lists
References: <cfl5d1$f8p$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<zEDTc.210024$OB3.89400@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
	<cformj$vso$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<f1WTc.212995$OB3.66458@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <cfqdkn$a7n$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>

Hi Wes,

Thankyou. I'll now go away and experiment with how to use it as I've just
started with python, but I should be able to learn a lot with this. It would
seem to be exactly what I was after. :  )

Malcolm




From indigo at bitglue.com  Tue Aug 24 18:53:35 2004
From: indigo at bitglue.com (Phil Frost)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:53:35 -0400
Subject: string concatenation optimizations [from python-dev Summary]
In-Reply-To: <412AC928.7000603@ocf.berkeley.edu>
References: <412AC928.7000603@ocf.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <20040824225335.GA6118@unununium.org>

Has adding a stringish object that supports efficient slicing,
concatenation, and mutation been considered? The C++ STL rope comes to
mind. Essentially what I have in mind is a type that's a list of byte
arrays. The value is defined as the concatenation of these arrays.

This would allow efficient implementations of things such as
s[31:35] = 'replacing a small substring with a larger one'

I think a reasonable implementation could be done using existing python
types, and if it's useful, an opmitized C implementation could be done.

This sort of thing is already on my stack of things to find on google,
write, or get someone else to write, just need the time. So what do you
think? Useful idea? Does this already exist?

On Mon, Aug 23, 2004 at 09:50:48PM -0700, Brett Cannon wrote:
> python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
>
> [snip]
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Changing the Big-O complexity for something in the language is now a 
> language feature
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> language evolution
> 
> Armin Rigo came up with a way to have string concatenation in a loop 
> (think ``for thing in iter_of_strings: concat_str += thing``) not be a 
> quadratic algorithm thanks to some trickery for ``a = a + b`` and ``a += 
> b`` conditions for strings.  The hope was to remove the (commonly 
> considered) wart of having ``"".join(iter_of_strings)`` be the suggested 
> way to concatenate a bunch of strings.
> 
> But Guido didn't like the patch.  His reasoning was that changing 
> something that led to a change in the Big-O complexity of certain 
> algorithms would inherently hurt other implementations of Python when 
> people would start to code specifically for that performance gain.  For 
> instance, having Jython be able to pull this trick off is, I believe, 
> near impossible.  So, in order to make sure changes like this are 
> considered before applying them, Guido instated a new rule that 
> "implementation features that affect not just the running speed but the 
> O() rate for certain algorithms should be considered language features, 
> because any implementation will be required to implement them in order 
> to ensure code portability" between implementations of Python.
> 
> In the end, though, this went in with a warning that the speed 
> performance is not portable.  It is not to be used in the stdlib ever.
> 
> Contributing threads:
>   - `Optimized string concatenation 
> <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046686.html>`__
>   - `PEP 0008 confusion - here it is, but don't use it? 
> <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047194.html>`__
>
> [snip]


From zathras at thwackety.com  Mon Aug 23 10:05:27 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:05:27 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [PATCH] RE: J2 decorator grammar
In-Reply-To: <4128d2f1$0$54951$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408231458030.22879-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004, Michael Sparks wrote:

> Anthony Baxter wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 15:01:39 +0100, Michael Sparks
> > <zathras at thwackety.com> wrote:
> >> It should be done sometime this afternoon though. (Bulk of the time taken
> >> up is on re-running the test suite unsuprisingly)
> >
> > One quick point - make sure you run the _full_ test suite (-uall arg
> > to regrtest,
> > or 'make testall'), otherwise things like the compiler tests won't get
> > run.
>
> Hmm... Didn't know about that version... Running that now and the following
> 2 tests fail:
>    * test_bsddb3
>    * test_ossaudiodev
>
> However, these fail for me when using a vanilla 2.4a2 so whilst not ideal
> these failures (probably) aren't due to my changes.
>
> Everything else passes.
>
> My next steps are this:
>    * Change keyword

Done. For ease of changing until I do the patch against the CVS tree I'm
using the token "SpanishInquisition" since it's simple to search and
replace. I intend to put "using" in it's place when put on SF.

>    * Do short/simple/single line form

80% Done. Grammar used is this:

decorator: dotted_name [ '(' [arglist] ')' ] NEWLINE
decorators: decorator+
funcdef: ['SpanishInquisition' ':' (decorator |NEWLINE INDENT decorators DEDENT) ] 'def' NAME parameters ':'suite

This is a bit ugly IMO, but it does the task required at present.

>    * Produce patch for CVS version.

In progress.


Michael.



From curzio.basso at unibas.ch  Wed Aug 11 04:05:10 2004
From: curzio.basso at unibas.ch (Curzio Basso)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:05:10 +0200
Subject: how to dispatch objects depending on their class 
In-Reply-To: <rI6dnT82JZZXwoTcRVn-sA@wideopenwest.com>
References: <4118dd4a$1@maser.urz.unibas.ch>
	<rI6dnT82JZZXwoTcRVn-sA@wideopenwest.com>
Message-ID: <4119d33c$1@maser.urz.unibas.ch>

cmedcoff at hotmail.com wrote:

> Visitor Pattern?

Actually, I thought what I was describing was a visitor pattern but I am 
probably wrong.

Is it correct that in the visitor pattern the dispatching would be 
delegated to the classes, like with:

class A(object):
   def __init__(self):
     pass
   def accept(self, visitor)
     visitor.do_something_with_A(self)

class B(A):
   def __init__(self):
     A.__init__(self)
   def accept(self, visitor)
     visitor.do_something_with_B(self)

class Visitor(object):
   def __init__(self):
     pass
   def do_something_with_A(self, object):
     pass
   def do_something_with_B(self, object):
     pass

Then I would call

a = A()
b = B()
v = Visitor()
a.accept(v)
b.accept(v)

Is this correct?

thanks, curzio


From ben at benlast.com  Thu Aug 19 11:12:57 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:12:57 +0100
Subject: Interface graphique pour python
In-Reply-To: <8e16829.0408190650.3fa62d5e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPMEHGCEAA.ben@benlast.com>

Pas de probleme :)
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/DevelopmentTools

Odd how learning one language (Spanish) pushes another (French) out of your
head.  :(

b

> -----Original Message-----
> From: python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org
> [mailto:python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org]On Behalf Of
> Roland
> Sent: 19 August 2004 15:51
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Interface graphique pour python
>
>
> Bonjour,
>
> J'ai redhat 9.0 sur mon ordinateur. Et j'ai besoin d'une interface
> graphique de python pour cnstuire une application . J'ai cherch? mais
> en vain. Pourriez-vous m'indiquer une?
>
>     Merci de bien vouloir m'aider.
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



From pythongnome at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 18 19:58:29 2004
From: pythongnome at hotmail.com (Lucas Raab)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 23:58:29 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <F2SUc.2116$2L3.47@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>

Somebody should set up a website with a poll-type thing to enter your age
and see other peoples ages.

"Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:jQHUc.1529$2L3.505 at newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....
>
>




From bokr at oz.net  Mon Aug  9 20:26:48 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 00:26:48 GMT
Subject: Purely emotional perspective
References: <10hf3oaltbo7o74@corp.supernews.com>
	<AYSdnQ2xPrfFPYrcRVn-iA@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1400.1092070428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<XqSdnTW-4KvRIIrcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
	<pan.2004.08.09.21.20.59.953540@hotmail.com>
	<10hg1hg1pidqs96@corp.supernews.com>
	<GrGdnfPcQZ4JkIXcRVn-vA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <cf94o8$b3c$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 19:49:38 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:

>Jeff Shannon wrote:
>
>> Personally, I'm seeing more and more usefulness in decorators as the 
>> discussion progresses, and I'm seeing more reasons why the most obvious 
>> alternatives to the currently proposed syntax are not optimal.  But I 
>> still find the current syntax to be *extremely* (painfully) 
>> uncomfortable -- this sort of prefix syntax is unlike anything else *I* 
>> can think of in Python.
>
If the '@' or '|' were a composite glyph instead, and moved a little (to the other
end of the function expression), the "prefix" aspect would look more like
the function call that it is sugar for, e.g., using '(:'

    deco1(:
    deco2(:
    def foo():
        pass
    # ':):)' closing "parens" not required

Thus the order is also plain, i.e.,
    foo = deco1(deco2(foo)))

Or if the colon in '(:' messes up tools, maybe '(%' or '(=' ?
... or '(-;' ?
*<8^P

>That's precisely my feeling at this point as well.  Oddly
>enough, I think with the slight change to use | instead of
>@ (or perhaps even Barry's preferred =) it would be easier to
>swallow.  Fundamentally though it is things like the strangeness
>of these lines that are somehow "bound" to the following (next)
>function definition, yet have no connection to it other than
>coming at the same indentation level.  (At least the | syntax
>does feel like it has a visual "link" to the following def.)
>
>And the reversed order of application (non-intuitive, I feel).
Does (: as above help?
>
>And the restriction to dotted names instead of arbitrary expressions,
>making it feel even more weird and non-Pythonic (and that in spite
>of the workarounds that have been shown for perhaps all cases
>anyway).
Yes. With (: it could be legal as a special function-calling expression trailer
and would call whatever any preceding expression yielded (and obviously fail if
it wasn't callable).

>
>And other subtleties.
>
>> I'm particularly worried about the proposals of using this as metadata 
>> for things like author -- that seems to be begging for almost every 
>> function to use half a dozen or more decorators (accepts, returns, 
>> author, design date, last revision date, etc., etc.) which will (IMO) 
>> seriously degrade code readability.  (This syntax is okay for one or two 
>> decorators, but more than that quickly becomes obfuscatory.)
>
Some of that sounds like rfc822 stuff ...

>This paragraph also seemed worth leaving in. :-)
>

I'm still wondering what aegis decorators will eventually "unify" under,
and with what ;-) Orthogonality beats special-casing IMO ;-)

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Sat Aug  7 23:10:18 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 03:10:18 GMT
Subject: Decorators
References: <%A8Rc.50217$Vm1.1280580@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<roy-1C5AF5.18404707082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <u93bh0p8plvilk6veou5i1jq9o12b1pajs@4ax.com>

On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 18:40:47 -0400, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:

>"Colin J. Williams" <cjw at sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> It seems desirable that we choose words which are as close as possible 
>> to their everyday usage.
>
>On the other hand, it's desirable to pick words which have established 
>meanings in computer science too.  The concept of a "decorator" is 
>pretty well established.  The term has been used in GUI frameworks for 
>10 or 15 years, and more recently has been enshrined in various pattern 
>collections.

My one line answer to the question of what it is I like about Python
is:

"""
It is literate without being effete.  
"""

I can live with "decorator", because it is a word without a particular
meaning to me (in this general realm), and I can fill in that blank by
an understanding of what it means in concrete terms in Python.  But it
disturbs me (mildly) to see it justified by something like the Gang of
Four reference or GUI framework stuff. 

I have no compelling reason to read the GOF material.  But feel myself
to be rarefied (by walking around kind of folks statndards) by
understanding, broadly, the reference. I can think of numbers of folks
I know who make a living in  IT related work, and for whom I am
confident the reference would draw a blank.
.  
I've written (simple) GUIs and never heard the word decorator used in
that context.

This is getting to be pretty effete stuff for a language that strives
to be for everybody.  Or is that silliness finally off the table. 

.
Standalone the issue of the justification of the word
"decorator"wouldn't motivate me to comment. 


But then I just read something defending  '@'  because it evokes
"prepocessor". Which also then justifies, I guess, its position
relative to what it processes.

But it also - is it not - the thingy that proceeds "aol.com" when
writing to manny_man.

I am a great believer in (motivated ) folks capacity to learn new
things.  And the existence of synonyms is not news to anyone. So no,
nobody motivated to learn new things will be stopped in their tracks
by @ in a new context (anymore than anyone motivated to learn new
things things would - given an explanation  - be stopped in their
tracks by 1/2 = 0 ).

But there is something a bit effete about a confident statement that
'@' is consistent with prepended information by referencing its use
(somewhere apparently) to hold prepocessor directives.. 

The less effete argument, it seems to me, is the opposite,  The method
is the addressee, the decorator the address.  The @ therefore belongs
between them - at the top of the body of the method.  Not before it.

Art


From SSchukat at dspace.de  Thu Aug 19 06:48:54 2004
From: SSchukat at dspace.de (Stefan Schukat)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:48:54 +0100
Subject: age of Python programmers
Message-ID: <84257D042AA7D411B3F700D0B7DB9B7C0723C001@PDC-DSPACE>

Just somewhere in the middle with 33 and doing Python for 6,5 years
and loving it.

	Stefan


From rynt at 9yahoo.com  Tue Aug 24 18:34:38 2004
From: rynt at 9yahoo.com (R Baumann)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 15:34:38 -0700
Subject: Python and C, looking for a C IDE
References: <6f402501.0408240353.2a5b8a84@posting.google.com>
	<412B5DE8.1BE3@zeusedit.com>
Message-ID: <Qv6dnXwWhILiX7bcRVn-qQ@megapath.net>

"Jussi Jumppanen" <jussij at zeusedit.com> wrote in message
news:412B5DE8.1BE3 at zeusedit.com...
> Michael Foord wrote:
>
> > That aside - Pyrex looks the kiddie. Can anyone reccomend a reasonable
> > C IDE ? An 'IDE' would be nice, but an editor might be sufficient.
>
> Take a look at the Zeus for Windows programmers editor:
>
>    http://www.zeusedit.com/lookmain.html
>
> Zeus supports Python, C/C++ and almost any other language. Some of
> the programming features include:
>
>   + Code completion and intellisensing
>   + Integrated class browser
>   + Project/workspace management
>   + Fully configurable syntax highlighting
>   + Seamless FTP editing
>   + Integrated version control using the Microsoft Source Code
>      Control (SCC) interface, including CVS integration.
>   + Quick Help context sensitive help engine
>   + Fully scriptable using Python
>
> There is also a tutorial (see the Start Button, Programs, Zeus for
> Windows, Tutorials) that explains how to setup the Ming compiler
> and debugger (Windows ports of gcc and gdb) to work with Zeus.
>
> Jussi Jumppanen
> http://www.zeusedit.com

Try Jedit.  http://www.jedit.org/

While primarily written for Java(in Java), it has a plug-in for Jython, and
supports C/C++ and a myriad of other languages.

Ruben




From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Mon Aug 30 20:05:15 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 17:05:15 -0700
Subject: Upgrading to 2.3 from 2.2, questions
In-Reply-To: <CPednTg__cSYJ67cRVn-gQ@powergate.ca>
References: <gOGdnchgidt_N67cRVn-uA@adelphia.com>
	<CPednTg__cSYJ67cRVn-gQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <10j7g4vsf5ef9c5@corp.supernews.com>

Peter Hansen wrote:

> Robert Oschler wrote:
>
>> - Do I need to uninstall 2.2 first?
>
>
> I don't know if there's an official answer other than "yes".  I don't
> know if there's a safe answer other than "yes".


I'm pretty sure that there should be no problems with having different 
versions of Python running side-by-side.  I have had 2.0 and 2.1 on the 
same machine, and 2.1 and 2.2, with no problems at all. 

>> - I am running on Windows 2000 and I have several site-packages 
>> installed.
>> These were installed using individual one-click installation programs 
>> (thank
>> you module writers).  Do I need to rerun each of the installations 
>> again,
>> after I upgrade?  Or, is there a directory or two I can simply copy 
>> over?
>
>
> While it might work, it's not guaranteed.  Extensions need to
> be compiled for the specific version, while pure Python packages
> will generally run as-is if you just copy them (generally they
> are all in python/lib/site-packages).  No guarantees again.


As Peter says, any packages that contain C extension (.pyd) modules need 
to be compiled for the specific version of Python.  You will need to 
download new versions of those packages.  Packages that are pure Python 
*should* run just as well under the new version as the old version, 
providing that it doesn't trip over any of the possible 
backwards-compatibility issues (such problems are moderately unusual) -- 
however, if you copy from site-packages to site-packages, be sure to 
delete any .pyc files because those are probably *not* 
version-portable.  You're probably better off re-running the installer, 
if it's still available.  (Also, odds are good that there's a new 
version of those packages, and while you're upgrading Python is a good 
time to upgrade other things too, so you may want to go ahead and 
re-download those packages as well.)

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 04:35:12 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:35:12 +0200
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<jt6dnb98R-eH6rDcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
	<7x65762wba.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <1gj4fo8.wzxpddp8r49yN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:

> Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> writes:
> > > instance, I can't say move(Vector([a,b,c]).normalize()), I have to do
> > >   a = Vector([a,b,c])
> > >   a.normalize()
> > >   move(a)
> > 
> > By the way, the second version is much more readable than the first,
> 
> That's a matter of opinion.  The lines are shorter but there are three
> times as many of them.  I think programmers ought to be able to make
> their own choices about this.  There are a lot of different styles
> that are equally legitimate.

But they're not equally Pythonic -- Python's philosophy is that there
should be preferably only one obvious way to do it.  It's a target, a
goal, not something that can be actually reached in 100% of the cases,
but it's an excellent idea.


Alex


From grante at visi.com  Thu Aug 26 11:05:00 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 15:05:00 GMT
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<776e0325.0408260433.449660c8@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <412dfc1c$0$65599$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-26, Sara <genericax at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Hey this ain't no CULT! Our creedo is simply:
>
>    "Larry said it, I believe it, THAT settles it!"
>
> If you don't believe it just look at the reaction if any questions any
> element of Perl design!

Over here in c.l.python, it's more like

   "Guido said it, that settles it, but we're going to discuss
    it endlessly and and vote on it using six or seven
    different voting algorithms anyway.  Then we'll argue about
    the voting algorithms."

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  I'm ZIPPY!! Are we
                                  at               having FUN yet??
                               visi.com            


From dd55 at cornell.edu  Sun Aug  8 14:35:52 2004
From: dd55 at cornell.edu (Darren Dale)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 14:35:52 -0400
Subject: What is @ used for?
Message-ID: <cf5rqa$c03$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>

I was looking through Pybliographer's source yesterday, and I dont 
recognize this syntax:

version  = "@version@"
progname = "@package@"

Presumably, this is reading values from somewhere. I havent seen '@' 
discussed in the python manuals or books, only IPython's magic 
functions. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place. Could anyone point 
me in the right direction?


From anthony at pearsonkennedy.com  Wed Aug 11 21:10:26 2004
From: anthony at pearsonkennedy.com (anthony at pearsonkennedy.com)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 18:10:26 -0700
Subject: Python Developer needed
Message-ID: <7c4bf12e.0408111710.20b567a@posting.google.com>

Ottawa part-time opportunity that can be done remotely! 

PearsonKennedy is looking for an individual with the following
skills:

Python

ZPT or equivalent

Page Templating

Web Development

Java script

Strong OOD

XHTML

CSS

SQL

Experience with transactional systems would be an asset

If interested and meet the qualifications please send resume to

anthony at pearsonkennedy.com


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 08:35:24 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:35:24 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed20408200310154db1fc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1829.1092785390.5135.python-list@python.org>	<65adnQrUKILiC7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>	<mailman.1834.1092791633.5135.python-list@python.org>	<m2vffgd6pu.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>	<mailman.1858.1092832530.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Michael.J.Fromberger-6AF702.10114718082004@localhost>	<mailman.1891.1092854353.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Michael.J.Fromberger-FF646E.17492318082004@localhost>	<mailman.1909.1092869465.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Michael.J.Fromberger-F6FD2B.21140718082004@localhost>	<cg1vp4$vgd$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040819034652e5089f@mail.gmail.com>	<cg24a4$vgd$3@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204081911025720b7fb@mail.gmail.com>	<cg4huk$mgn$2@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed20408200310154db1fc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cg4r6a$mgn$3@sea.gmane.org>

Anthony Baxter wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 05:57:42 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>I know you weren't Anthony (that was a joke).  I understand that you
>>don't like this idea, but that doesn't make it a _bad_ one. Numerous
>>people have *not* effectively pointed out the problems with it (and
>>neither have you, sir).
> 
> 
> Err, what? Have you bothered to read the replies I sent to you? 

Yes of course I have.  You can tell because I've replied to everything 
you've said, directly (as best I could) addressing your 'points'.  Have 
you noticed my replies?  Did you bother to read them?

> This is _bad_ magic behaviour. Python does not care about argument lists
> now, and adding this is icky. 

Python doesn't do this now.  Check.  You think that it's "icky".  Check.

> Your behaviour when _adding_ methods to classes is extremely undefined, 
> particularly in the presence of 
> descriptors. 

If you're talking about dynamically adding methods to classes (at 
runtime), we've discussed this in general.  You have to have the first 
parm name correct before you add the method.

But we haven't talked about descriptor issues yet, have we?  What's the 
problem with them?

> Explaining this to new users would be complex. 

We discussed this before too (didn't we?).  It will be *less* complex 
for new users.  Well, you tell me.  Here's the only part of the 
classmethod documentation that would change (from 
http://docs.python.org/lib/built-in-funcs.html)...

"""
A class method receives the class as implicit first argument, just like 
an instance method receives the instance. To declare a class method, use 
this idiom:

class C:
     def f(cls, arg1, arg2, ...): ...
     f = classmethod(f)
"""

...it would be changed to (something like) this...

"""
A class method receives the class as its first argument 'cls', just like 
an instance method receives the instance as its first argument 'self'. 
To declare a class method, use this idiom:

class C:
     def f(cls, arg1, arg2, ...): ...

Note that the first argument of each class method must be named 'cls'.
"""


> It's a
> messy interference in the way Python's OO builds classes and objects,
> which is currently very clear and easy to follow[1]. 

We haven't discussed this, have we?  What do you mean?


> It's not explicit, but implicit.

True.  But then so is dynamic typing, a powerful feature of Python that 
differentiates it from languages like Java, C++.  Therefore, you aren't 
saying enough here for that point to be valid.


> How many ways do I have to spell this out?  

One valid spelling would be a good start.


> 
> The only argument _for_ this that you've offered is that it's just like the
> double-underscores. 

Oh my... <sigh>  Have you been reading *my* posts?  If so, I must be 
doing a terrible job of communicating here (my apologies).  Here are 
four reasons in favor of it.  Rip them apart to your satisfaction.

1. It make formal a convention widely used by others and therefore would 
have an obvious interpretation to readers of your code.

2. It doesn't require as much typing as the current technique nor any 
proposed decorator technique.

3. It is less error prone (because it is WYSIWYG) than the current 
technique.

4. It is easier to understand than the current technique.


> double-underscores. This is a losing argument (with me, anyway) as
> I regard the double-underscore mangling as awful - that sort of "data
> hiding" just ends up being a pain in the arse when you want to poke 
> with a class's internals. Python regards everyone as an adult in that 
> respect, unlike the "protecting you from yourself" C++ nightmare. In
> addition, the double-underscore is just random magic that occurs when
> a class is created, not subsequently:
> 
> 
>>>>class A:
> 
> ...   __foo = 1
> ... 
> 
>>>>dir(A)
> 
> ['_A__foo', '__doc__', '__module__']
> 
>>>>A.__bar = 2
>>>>dir(A)
> 
> ['_A__foo', '__bar', '__doc__', '__module__']
> 
> for the same reasons, your idea would lead to inconsistencies.
>

That's an interesting point.  The behavior you illustrate is apparently 
a Python bug wrt private attributes.  If it was consistent...

    A.__bar = 2

would work, but a subsequent

    print A.__bar

would generate an attribute error.

But of course its easy to make Python work that way (as I show below). 
Likewise, I'm sure similar inconsistencies in 'my' (for lack of a better 
word --- I didn't actually come up with it) idea could be as easily 
resolved.

#############################################################
class M(type):
     def __setattr__(metacls, attrName, value):
         if attrName.startswith('__'):
             attrName = '_%s%s' % (metacls.__name__, attrName)
         type.__setattr__(metacls, attrName, value)

class A:
     __metaclass__ = M
     __foo = 1

print [x for x in dir(A) if x.startswith('_A')]   # 1.
A.__bar = 2
print [x for x in dir(A) if x.startswith('_A')]   # 2.

"""Footnotes:
     1. prints ['_A__foo']
     2. prints ['_A__bar', '_A__foo']
"""
#############################################################




From serj307 at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 11 22:27:29 2004
From: serj307 at hotmail.com (Serj K.)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 19:27:29 -0700
Subject: problems with pysmb
Message-ID: <45134507.0408111827.1b044e2a@posting.google.com>

Hi, all.

i'm having some problems with 'pysmb' module. 
What i'm trying to do is to get list of all available shares (servers)
on local ethernet. The net is quite big, and there is no way to know
to how many subnets (sub domains) it is divided. So, what's the best
method to do this?

 After calling 'gethostbyname' with '__MSBROWSE__' I have the ip of
master_browse.
But to use the 'smb.SMB(remote_name, remote_host... )' I need to know
the netBiosName of the host, which i don't know (and the reverse
function, name based on ip, is not working, even 'nmblookup -T
xx.xx.xx.xx is not working).

The question is why smb.SMB() needs both the ip and netBIOSName?
And if there is another way to do things? There has to be, 'couse
programms like
  LinNeighborhood somehow manage to work.

PS The problem probably is that I don't really understand the whole
concept of netBIOS stuff. In this case can someone please point me to
some brief intriduction?

           thanx in advance


From davidf at sjsoft.com  Thu Aug 19 06:06:43 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:06:43 +0200
Subject: Think you've got a new decorator syntax?
In-Reply-To: <d11dcfba.0408160849.36f3634b@posting.google.com>
References: <d11dcfba.0408160849.36f3634b@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cg1u3j$7e2$3@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

Steven Bethard wrote:
> You probably don't. ;)  Here's a script that generates (almost) all of
> the proposals so far.  Don't worry, there's only 1224 that are both
> not currently valid syntax and also easily greppable. ;)
> 
> http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~bethard/py/decorators.py
> 
> And the output (throwing away any syntaxes that were currently valid
> or not easily greppable):
> 
> http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~bethard/py/decorators-output.py
> 
> Steve

Excellent! I propose that we accept *ALL* of the syntaxes! Flexibility!

David


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug  9 15:28:13 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 15:28:13 -0400
Subject: Best pattern/idiom
In-Reply-To: <4117c3d8$1@buckaroo.cs.rit.edu>
References: <4117c3d8$1@buckaroo.cs.rit.edu>
Message-ID: <nsGdnWbkgcvTTYrcRVn-rg@powergate.ca>

Chris Connett wrote:

> I was wondering if there were a well known pattern/idiom for breaking a 
> sequence into a list of lists, each n elements long, e.g.
> 
> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11] -> [[0,1,2,3],[4,5,6,7],[8,9,10,11]]
> 
> This comes up reasonably often in my work, and every time I re-think 
> about it, and come up with
> [ lis[n:n+4] for n in range( 0, len( lis ), 4 ) ]
> which seems very kludgy to me, since it uses a range and len, 2 mentions 
> of the list identifier and 2 literal 4's (which is the size I want to 
> break into this time).
> 
> Is there a better way?

Found from a Peter Otten post via Google Groups (searching for
"islice list split"):

 >>> def chunks(s, size):
...   for i in range(0, len(s), size):
...     yield s[i:i+size]
 >>> s
[0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11]
 >>> list(chunks(s, 4))
[[0, 1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6, 7], [8, 9, 10, 11]]
 >>> list(chunks([], 4))
[]
 >>> list(chunks(s[:10], 4))
[[0, 1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6, 7], [8, 9]]

Of course, this uses range and len as well, and two mentions
of the identifier.  A function would have let you avoid the
duplicated literal 4, as this does also.

Now, define "better". ;-)  Some tasks have an inherent
complexity that can't be shrunk below a certain size...

-Peter


From indigo at bitglue.com  Mon Aug 23 21:13:48 2004
From: indigo at bitglue.com (Phil Frost)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:13:48 -0400
Subject: Help with trapping an exception
In-Reply-To: <qe3li01voq3qpj67sldp899qi2ufmpdvu9@4ax.com>
References: <qe3li01voq3qpj67sldp899qi2ufmpdvu9@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20040824011348.GB834@unununium.org>

Take a look at the traceback standard module to format exceptions
nicely. Another thing you can do is this:

try:
  {}['fu']
except Exception, x:
  print x

That asigns the exception to x in the except block. All exceptions can
be converted to strings which are usually short descriptions of the
problem. One problem is KeyError, which converts to just the bad key,
for example the above just prints "fu" which is less than helpful.
Another catch of the above is that it will only catch subclasses of
Exception, which is almost everything except a few like StopIteration or
user classes that don't subclass Exception.

On Mon, Aug 23, 2004 at 09:05:15PM -0400, pythos at bag.python.org wrote:
> I have a piece of code like this:
> 
> try:
> 	some code
> except:
> 	print >> sys.stderr, "error: ", sys.exc_info()
> 
> 
> When an exception is thrown from the code, what I see on the console is this:
> 
> error: (<class exceptions.NameError at 0x01E7A378>, <exceptions.NameError
> instance at 0x09752C50>, <traceback object at 0x096A1408>)
> 
> I had a lot of trouble figuring out what was causing the NameError.  I finally
> figured it out by removing the "try" and "except" statements so that my code
> didn't catch any exceptions.  When I did that, I saw the following on my
> console:
> 
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "c:\Documents and Settings\xxxxx\rot.PspScript", line 79, in Do
>     os.path.walk(baseDirectory, ProcessDirectory, Environment)
>   File "c:\Program Files\xxxxxx\Python Libraries\lib\ntpath.py", line 318, in
> walk
>     func(arg, top, names)
>   File "c:\Documents and Settings\xxxxx\rot.PspScript", line 36, in
> ProcessDirectory
>     App.Do(Environment, 'FileOpen', {
> NameError: global name 'Environment' is not defined
> 
> 
> Now that was much more helpful.  Once I knew that 'Environment' was not
> defined, I easily figured out the problem.  But I need to use "try" and
> "except" to catch the exception, otherwise my program will end abruptly
> without finishing.  So how can I see the "NameError: global name 'Environment'
> is not defined" message in the "except" section of my code?  A call to
> sys.exc_info() doesn't show it.  Is there another function I can use?  Thanks.


From matt.price at utoronto.ca  Mon Aug  9 14:48:54 2004
From: matt.price at utoronto.ca (Matt Price)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 14:48:54 -0400
Subject: cgi script: get the url of this page
Message-ID: <20040809184854.GA10092@utoronto.ca>

A super simple question:

is there a standard trick to get the url of the current page in a cgi
script, or the url from which form data has been passed??  I want to
embed the name of the current page in a form field for two reasons:
(1) sometimes I want to send form data to the current page;
(2) sometimes I want to know where the daa came from, so I can add
that information to a database.  

thanks again,

Matt


-------------------------------------------
Matt Price	    matt.price at utoronto.ca
History Department, University of Toronto
(416) 978-2094
--------------------------------------------


From daniel.dittmar at sap.com  Thu Aug  5 08:02:23 2004
From: daniel.dittmar at sap.com (Daniel Dittmar)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 14:02:23 +0200
Subject: Scope Problem
References: <cet6eh$tvq$1@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <cet7ke$g15$1@news1.wdf.sap-ag.de>

You are not returning the value of the recursive call
self.linearSearch(value, index + 1).

Hmm, implementing a linear search through recursion. Is your first language
LISP?

Daniel

Nickolay Kolev wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I have set to implementing a few basic algorithms in Python serving a
> twofold purpose: learning the algorithms and learning Python a little
> better.
>
> I have however encountered a strange (for me anyway) scoping problem.
>
> Here is my implementation of linear search as a method in a class,
> hence all the self's (self.sequence is the sorted sequence we are
> searching in and value is, well, the value we are searching for):
>
> def linearSearch(self, value, index = None):
>
>          if not index:
>              index = 0
>
>          try:
>
>              if self.sequence[index] == value:
>
>                  return index
>
>              else:
>
>                  self.linearSearch(value, index + 1)
>
>          except IndexError:
>
>               return -1
>
>
> My problem is that this method always returns None regardless of
> whether the value was found or not. If I put print statements in
> there, all the values and indices are printed correctly though.
> Actually I have another parameter to this method called debug, if
> this is set, the single comparison steps are printed to STDOUT
> (omitted above to avoid clutter).
>
> What am I doing wrong?
>
> Many thanks in advance,
> Nicky




From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Fri Aug  6 10:59:59 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 14:59:59 GMT
Subject: Decorator syntax
References: <mailman.1173.1091670172.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<8d3e714e.0408051651.7c91a5c4@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <P1NQc.2055$va2.247@fe1.texas.rr.com>

"Tony C" <cappy2112 at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8d3e714e.0408051651.7c91a5c4 at posting.google.com...
> > This is backwards compatible (Python <= 2.3 raise
> > SyntaxError), and looks much nicer than @.
>
> "Almost" anything looks better than the @ syntax.
> If @ gets implemented, there goes the whole easily-readable plug for
> Python.
> We might as all go learn Perl.
>
> While everyone is fussing around on the syntax of decorators, I think
> they should change the name as well (although I don't have a
> reasonable alternative yet). Decorator is the least program-like term
> I've ever heard of. :)

Talk to the Gang of Four about that.  Decorator is straight out of the
Design Patterns book.

-- Paul




From rattan at cps.cmich.edu  Thu Aug 26 01:38:06 2004
From: rattan at cps.cmich.edu (Ishwar Rattan)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 22:38:06 -0700
Subject: A question??
Message-ID: <938a4680.0408252138.1580ac93@posting.google.com>

I thought that Python has no concept of reference/pointer
(probably incorrect assumption). I saw the following piece of code:

...
def run(program, *args):
    pid = os.fork()
    if not pid:
         os.execvp(program, (program,)+args)
...

and call to run as

run("pyhton", "a.py")

What is the interpretation of *args (in def run(..)?
Looks like a reference to me, so, how does one decide when to use
a reference or not?

Any pointers to info will be appreciated.
-ishwar


From kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no  Fri Aug 27 11:42:37 2004
From: kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Torgrim Homme)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:42:37 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<wuIXc.258478$OB3.99772@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <1ru0uod1ua.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>

[Andrew Koenig]:
>
>   [Kjetil Torgrim Homme]:
>   > my suggestion is to allow braces to mark the suites.  Python is
>   > still strictly enforcing indentation, in fact, in some ways it's
>   > stricter then before.
>   
>   The following code is legal today:
>   
>       def foo(x):
>           print x
>       x = 3
>       if x == 3:
>           {
>           foo(x) : 42
>           }
>   
>   Are you proposing to change the meaning of this code?

no, this code still works with my patch.  the opening brace must be at
the same level as the preceding statement.  this is not a problem,
since the insides of a literal dict can't be a valid Python expression
and vice versa, so you'll get a syntax error even if the misplaced
opening brace is mistakenly taken as the beginning of a dict by the
Python parser.

my current patch does have a problem as stated in my original message,
but this is really just a proof-of-concept.  a patch with no backwards
compatibility problems can be prepared if there is interest.
-- 
Kjetil T.


From roy at panix.com  Thu Aug 12 12:39:00 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:39:00 -0400
Subject: measuring 1/100th seconds, what function?
References: <pan.2004.08.10.21.16.01.728029@yahoo.com>
	<mailman.1475.1092179147.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-601AFB.23231010082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<87657ojp2l.fsf@uwo.ca>
Message-ID: <roy-52FBA1.12390012082004@reader1.panix.com>

In article <87657ojp2l.fsf at uwo.ca>, Dan Christensen <jdc at uwo.ca> wrote:

> Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> writes:
> 
> > Tim Peters <tim.peters at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Note that on a box connected to a network time-correction
> >> service, time.time can appear to "run backwards" briefly at
> >> unpredictable times.
> >
> > This will never happen if you're running NTP.  NTP does gradual 
> > adjustments to the clock rate to ensure that the system clock is always 
> > monotonically increasing.
> 
> ntp only works well if your clock rate is very consistent.  On all of
> the laptops I've used, I get frequent adjustments:
> 
> Aug  6 20:30:45 localhost ntpd[911]: time reset -0.472600 s
> Aug  5 22:04:57 localhost ntpd[919]: time reset +0.670974 s
> Aug  5 22:34:06 localhost ntpd[919]: time reset +0.884625 s
> Aug  5 23:13:54 localhost ntpd[919]: time reset -0.376758 s
> 
> I don't see any reason in principle ntp couldn't allow a greater
> offset between the local machine and the servers, and use gradual
> adjustments in this case.  But it doesn't.
> 
> Dan

I stand corrected.  Thank you.


From cdunscombe at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 12:23:08 2004
From: cdunscombe at yahoo.com (Chris)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 09:23:08 -0700
Subject: Distributing Python applications - McMillan Installer question
Message-ID: <6f89f4fe.0408260823.3b856a34@posting.google.com>

I would like to be able to "package-up" a Python application on my
development platform (Linux) so that it can be easily distributed and
installed on Windows and UNIX e.g. HP-UX, AIX etc. I'd rather not use
Python's disutils.
I've looked at cx_Freeze but this requires a "base executable" to be
available for each target platform i.e. I'd need to compile this base
executable on the target platforms but I don't have access to them
all.
I've had a quick look at the McMillan installer and from what I've
seen It's not clear to me whether this would do the job for me or not?

An aswer to this or any other ideas on how else I might progress would
be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Chris


From zathras at thwackety.com  Fri Aug 27 05:08:02 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:08:02 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed204082620511eebfe19@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408271002480.18928-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Anthony Baxter wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:14:33 +0100, Michael Sparks
> <zathras at thwackety.com> wrote:
>
...
> >    4 The feature might be ripped out
...
> That's not the way Python works - we don't rip stuff out once it's
> been in a final release. from __future__ is added so that people can
> turn on a new feature gradually, without their code being instantly
> broken.

I was meaning before 2.4's final release. I realise that the likelyhood of
this is about the same as Richard Stallman joining Microsoft as a patent
advocate, but in a world of infinite possibilities ... ;-)


Michael.



From grzegorz at ee.ualberta.ca  Fri Aug  6 13:08:38 2004
From: grzegorz at ee.ualberta.ca (Grzegorz Dostatni)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 13:08:38 -0400
Subject: Extending python.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1305.1091817612.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1305.1091817612.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061307140.8941-100000@e5-05.ee.ualberta.ca>


Followup.

Thanks, I'll re-read this again.

Small change. I've managed to extend python with a small module (just
using the .o file) under Linux. It appears that my problems are a bit more
windows centric. Anyone willing and able to help me with that?

Greg

"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
 But, in practice, there is."
	- Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut


On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Batista, Facundo wrote:

> Maybe this will help you:
>
> http://www.python.org/doc/faq/extending.html
>
> .	Facundo
>
> #- -----Mensaje original-----
> #- De: Grzegorz Dostatni [mailto:grzegorz at ee.ualberta.ca]
> #- Enviado el: Viernes, 06 de Agosto de 2004 13:35
> #- Para: python-list at python.org
> #- Asunto: Extending python.
> #-
> #-
> #-
> #- Cheers.
> #-
> #- More questions.
> #- Let's say I'm trying to extend python with a c module. That
> #- module cannot
> #- be dynamically loaded (for reasons outside my control). I
> #- have to create a
> #- custom python executable (or more likely custom python library).
> #- How would I do that? Is there documentation on that
> #- somewhere? Most of
> #- what I've seen was for dynamic loading.
> #-
> #- 2nd Step:
> #- Let's say I'm doing it under windows, using Visual Studio. Is there
> #- anything I have to be aware of?
> #-
> #- 3rd Step:
> #- Let's say I don't have the source available. I do have the
> #- object files,
> #- the resulting libraries and the header files though.
> #-
> #- Greg
> #-
> #- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
> #- possible worlds,
> #-  and the pessimist fears this is true."
> #- 	- James Branch Cabell
> #-
> #-
> #- --
> #- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> #-
>



From mharlow-dated-1093699782.6a56ce at grephead.com  Wed Aug 25 11:00:29 2004
From: mharlow-dated-1093699782.6a56ce at grephead.com (matt okeson-harlow)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:00:29 -0000
Subject: MySQLdb on Solaris8, build errors
Message-ID: <slrncipac7.ldu.mharlow-dated-1093699782.6a56ce@minerva.grephead.com>

i am getting errors trying to build MySQLdb on solaris 8, i have tried
changing the libs, no joy, anyone have any ideas?

Python 2.3.4

gcc -v
Reading specs from
/usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/specs
Configured with: ../configure --disable-nls --with-ld=/usr/ccs/bin/ld
--with-as=/usr/ccs/bin/as
Thread model: posix
gcc version 3.2.2


i have tried both MySQLdb 1.0.0 and 1.1.1

output from mysql_config:
--cflags         [-I'/usr/local/include/mysql']
--libs           [-L'/usr/local/lib/mysql' -lmysqlclient -lz -lcrypt -lgen -lsocket -lnsl -lm]
--socket         [/tmp/mysql.sock]
--port           [3306]
--version        [4.0.12]
--libmysqld-libs [ -L'/usr/local/lib/mysql' -lmysqld -lpthread -lthread -lz -lcrypt -lgen -lsocket -lnsl -lm  -lpthread -lthread  -lrt]

variables set are: 
mysqlclient=mysqlclient
mysqlversion=4.0.12
mysqloptlibs=crypt z

output from python setup.py build:

running build
running build_py
running build_ext
building '_mysql' extension
creating build/temp.solaris-2.8-sun4u-2.3
gcc -fno-strict-aliasing -DNDEBUG -g -O3 -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes -fPIC
-I/usr/include/mysql -I/usr/local/include/mysql
-I/usr/local/mysql/include -I/usr/local/mysql/include/mysql
-I/usr/local/include/python2.3 -c _mysql.c -o
build/temp.solaris-2.8-sun4u-2.3/_mysql.o -fPIC
gcc -shared build/temp.solaris-2.8-sun4u-2.3/_mysql.o -L/usr/lib/mysql
-L/usr/local/lib/mysql -L/usr/local/mysql/lib
-L/usr/local/mysql/lib/mysql
-Wl,-R/usr/local/lib:/usr/openwin/lib:/usr/dt/lib -lmysqlclient -lcrypt
-lz -lz -lcrypt -o build/lib.solaris-2.8-sun4u-2.3/_mysql.so
Text relocation remains                 	referenced
    against symbol		    offset	in file
<unknown>                           0x738 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x73c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x740 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x744 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x748 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x74c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x750 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x754 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x758 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x75c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x760 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x764 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x768 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x76c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0xab8 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
<unknown>                           0xabc /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
<unknown>                           0xac0 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
<unknown>                           0xac4 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
<unknown>                           0xac8 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
<unknown>                           0xacc /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
<unknown>                           0xad0 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
<unknown>                           0xad4 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
<unknown>                           0xad8 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
<unknown>                           0xadc /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
<unknown>                           0x780 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
<unknown>                           0x784 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
<unknown>                           0x788 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
<unknown>                           0x78c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
<unknown>                           0x790 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
<unknown>                           0x794 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
<unknown>                           0x798 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
<unknown>                           0x79c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
<unknown>                           0x7a0 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
<unknown>                           0x7a4 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
<unknown>                           0x40 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(deflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x4c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(deflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x58 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(deflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x64 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(deflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x70 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(deflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x7c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(deflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x88 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(deflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x94 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(deflate.o)
<unknown>                           0xa0 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(deflate.o)
<unknown>                           0xac /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(deflate.o)
memset                              0x9a0 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(deflate.o)
memset                              0xee0 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(deflate.o)
zcalloc                             0x70 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(deflate.o)
zcalloc                             0x74 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(deflate.o)
zcalloc                             0x58 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
zcalloc                             0x5c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
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<unknown>                           0x268 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(trees.o)
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<unknown>                           0x688 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(trees.o)
<unknown>                           0x68c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(trees.o)
<unknown>                           0x690 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(trees.o)
<unknown>                           0x698 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(trees.o)
<unknown>                           0x71c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(trees.o)
<unknown>                           0x720 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(trees.o)
<unknown>                           0x968 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(trees.o)
<unknown>                           0x96c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(trees.o)
<unknown>                           0x980 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(trees.o)
<unknown>                           0x984 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(trees.o)
<unknown>                           0xab8 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(trees.o)
<unknown>                           0xabc /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(trees.o)
<unknown>                           0xad4 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(trees.o)
<unknown>                           0xadc /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(trees.o)
<unknown>                           0x19c8 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(trees.o)
<unknown>                           0x19d0 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(trees.o)
<unknown>                           0x1dd0 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(trees.o)
<unknown>                           0x1dd4 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(trees.o)
<unknown>                           0x0 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(zutil.o)
<unknown>                           0x8 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(zutil.o)
calloc                              0x2c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(zutil.o)
calloc                              0x30 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(zutil.o)
<unknown>                           0x288 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x290 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x2e8 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x304 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x4d4 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x4d8 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x4f8 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x500 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x520 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x524 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x6d8 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x6dc /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x7bc /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x7cc /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
inflate_blocks_new                  0x144 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
inflate_blocks_free                 0x10c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
inflate_blocks_free                 0x1a8 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
inflate_blocks_free                 0x974 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
inflate_blocks_sync_point           0xa78 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
inflate_blocks_sync_point           0xa7c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
inflate_blocks                      0x544 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
inflate_set_dictionary              0xa28 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inflate.o)
<unknown>                           0x40 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
<unknown>                           0x48 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
<unknown>                           0x1a8 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
<unknown>                           0x1b8 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
<unknown>                           0x2bc /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
<unknown>                           0x2d0 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
<unknown>                           0x4f0 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
<unknown>                           0x4f4 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
<unknown>                           0x580 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
<unknown>                           0x584 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
<unknown>                           0x9d8 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
<unknown>                           0x9e8 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
<unknown>                           0xa38 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
<unknown>                           0xa48 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
inflate_mask                        0x60c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
inflate_mask                        0x610 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
inflate_mask                        0x12c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
inflate_mask                        0x160 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
inflate_mask                        0x164 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
inflate_mask                        0x290 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
inflate_mask                        0x2c4 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
inflate_mask                        0x2c8 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
inflate_mask                        0x310 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
inflate_mask                        0x344 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
inflate_mask                        0x34c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
inflate_mask                        0x3dc /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
inflate_mask                        0x410 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
inflate_mask                        0x414 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
inflate_mask                        0x4c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inffast.o)
inflate_mask                        0x50 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inffast.o)
inflate_mask                        0xa4 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inffast.o)
inflate_mask                        0xa8 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inffast.o)
inflate_mask                        0x2b0 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inffast.o)
inflate_mask                        0x2b4 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inffast.o)
inflate_flush                       0x374 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
inflate_flush                       0x808 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
inflate_flush                       0xaa8 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
inflate_flush                       0x1fc /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
inflate_flush                       0x4f8 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
inflate_flush                       0x60c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
inflate_flush                       0x6d0 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
inflate_codes                       0x788 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
inflate_codes_new                   0xd0 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
inflate_codes_new                   0x72c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
inflate_trees_bits                  0x5c8 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
inflate_trees_fixed                 0xb8 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
inflate_trees_dynamic               0x70c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infblock.o)
<unknown>                           0x254 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x258 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x260 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x264 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x268 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x270 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x274 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x27c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x3c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x40 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x44 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x60 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x78 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x88 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x94 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x98 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0xa4 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0xd0 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0xd4 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0xd8 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x150 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x158 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x15c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x164 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x168 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x170 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x200 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x214 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x218 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x23c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x240 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inftrees.o)
<unknown>                           0x44 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
<unknown>                           0x4c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
<unknown>                           0x1d8 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
<unknown>                           0x1e4 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
<unknown>                           0x3a4 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
<unknown>                           0x3b4 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
inflate_fast                        0xc0 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(infcodes.o)
<unknown>                           0x200 /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inffast.o)
<unknown>                           0x20c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inffast.o)
<unknown>                           0x30c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inffast.o)
<unknown>                           0x31c /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/sparc-sun-solaris2.8/3.2.2/../../../libz.a(inffast.o)
ld: fatal: relocations remain against allocatable but non-writable sections
collect2: ld returned 1 exit status 
error: command 'gcc' failed with exit status 1

-- matt okeson-harlow
http://technomage.net


From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 17 00:50:47 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 23:50:47 -0500
Subject: Python secure?
In-Reply-To: <vfqdnQsFW8io5LzcRVn-tQ@powergate.ca>
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk><ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com><ZKRTc.3710$bJ2.23892@news1.mts.net>	<cforh6$qiv$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk><mailman.1705.1092625838.5135.python-list@python.org><2xXTc.3775$bJ2.24876@news1.mts.net>	<NIydnd-skK0q173cRVn-ow@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1751.1092678567.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<rzeUc.3995$bJ2.26585@news1.mts.net>
	<vfqdnQsFW8io5LzcRVn-tQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <38gUc.4022$bJ2.26922@news1.mts.net>

Peter Hansen wrote:
> Reid Nichol wrote:
> 
>> And because some M$ employee did something sloppy it is an implication 
>> that C is bad.  Hell, even strncpy can be dangerous.  How many times 
>> do I have to say the responsibility is the programmers, *not* the 
>> language.
> 
> 
> The *responsibility* is clearly the programmer's, but the *language*
> tends to encourage or discourage certain kinds of programmer behaviour,
> including the writing of secure code.
> 
> Surely you wouldn't argue that all languages promote different
> kinds of coding equally well, or even that the choice of language
> has *no impact whatsoever* on how a programmer will code, or what
> kinds of solutions he will attempt to use in his code?
> 
> -Peter

Here, this programmer made a rookie mistake.  (S)he clearly had no 
business writing the code (s)he did.  It isn't the languages fault, it's 
the programmers.


In general, I believe that if the programmer is a poor programmer then 
they'll find a way to mess up no matter what language they use.  The 
language will just state how big that mess up can/will be on average.

But, if someone wants secure programming done and they charge a rookie 
to do it, they get what they deserve.  If they want secure code and they 
hire an years guru (at the language) coder that knows nothing of writing 
*secure* code, they get what they deserve.

The ability to write secure programs is a rare talent and those that 
need it, need to develop the ability to see this quality in there 
employees (or the ability to find them).  This isn't something that 
anyone can pick up and learn, one must have something inside them that 
enables them to do it.  And all that evidence that was spoken of merely 
supports the fact that it is a rare talent indeed.


From fakeaddress at nowhere.org  Sun Aug  8 00:21:16 2004
From: fakeaddress at nowhere.org (Bryan Olson)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 04:21:16 GMT
Subject: How to force a single number to be a tuple
In-Reply-To: <roy-73E10E.09381307082004@reader1.panix.com>
References: <mailman.1138.1091636758.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-6EC9F2.12271204082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1142.1091637381.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1a517b5.0408061329.429de7fc@posting.google.com>
	<roy-0B13C1.18151306082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<uiq8h09864jrmf8oj2dt7c9hbr278u98qc@4ax.com>
	<roy-73E10E.09381307082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <0ThRc.1653$QJ3.1264@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>

Roy Smith wrote:
 > Dennis Lee Bieber
 >> An unrestricted Cartesian product basically pairs up each entry
 >> of "domain A" with each entry of "domain B"
 >
 > Ah.  The cross-product.  It's amazing how so many fields of study use
 > the same concepts but invent new names for things to obfuscate
 > everything :-)

The Cartesian product is named for Ren? Descartes, father of
analytic geometry.  Though sometimes called the 'Cross product',
the latter term is much more commonly associated with the vector
cross-product, and that's what people will usually find if they
try to look up or Google "cross-product".


-- 
--Bryan


From SBrunning at trisystems.co.uk  Wed Aug 18 09:05:40 2004
From: SBrunning at trisystems.co.uk (SBrunning at trisystems.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:05:40 +0100
Subject: Platform independent way to play an mp3 file
Message-ID: <31575A892FF6D1118F5800600846864D01AE29A3@intrepid>

> From: Gandalf [mailto:gandalf at geochemsource.com]
> 
>   
> Oh yes, I know about this. But it seems it is working on
> Linux and Windows only. I have Solaris, FreeBSD and AS/400
> clients too.
> :-(

AS/400 clients? '400s don't have *any* sound support at all, so good luck
with that one. ;-)

Cheers,
Simon B.
simon at brunningonline.net
http://www.brunningonline.net/simon/blog/ 




-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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copying, distribution, or any action taken or omitted to be taken in
reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. TriSystems Ltd. cannot
accept liability for statements made which are clearly the senders own.


From dave at pythonapocrypha.com  Thu Aug 26 14:33:57 2004
From: dave at pythonapocrypha.com (Dave Brueck)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:33:57 -0600
Subject: Best processor (i386) for Python performance?
In-Reply-To: <ur7ptixxk.fsf@fitlinxx.com>
References: <cgjsk2$le4@odah37.prod.google.com>	<412dfb17$0$65599$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>	<mailman.2443.1093535390.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ur7ptixxk.fsf@fitlinxx.com>
Message-ID: <412E2D15.3060600@pythonapocrypha.com>

David Bolen wrote:
> I don't doubt the performance gains, but I'd argue that if you are
> seeing that sort of improvement, then you clearly don't have an I/O
> bound program at all, but a compute bound one. 

Ugh, yes. Thanks for the correction! The application in question was an 
object layer in front of a database - it spent most of its time pickling 
and unpickling objects, so the bulk of the performance gains probably 
came from the database speeding up (it was on the same box).

>>But then again very few of the projects I work on end up having CPU as
>>the most scarce resource so the machines that do have multiple CPUs
>>are that way because they are running oodles of other processes as
>>well.
> 
> This is an excellent point since even if the only advantage to the
> extra CPUs was to free up more of a single CPU for a Python
> application, you'd still see a net gain for that application when
> running in its real world environment.

Good call.

Thanks,
Dave


From ken at perfect-image.com  Tue Aug  3 18:38:25 2004
From: ken at perfect-image.com (Ken Godee)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 15:38:25 -0700
Subject: PyQt - clear widget for redraw
In-Reply-To: <410fad7d@news.maxnet.co.nz>
References: <410b4492@news.maxnet.co.nz>
	<ceg1gk$e0b$03$1@news.t-online.com>	<410bf265@news.maxnet.co.nz>
	<ceiidi$u4k$05$1@news.t-online.com>	<410d0699@news.maxnet.co.nz>
	<celo8g$bbf$06$1@news.t-online.com> <410fad7d@news.maxnet.co.nz>
Message-ID: <411013E1.7080605@perfect-image.com>

Peter wrote:

> Yes - tried that, but gives incomplete draw / flicker.
> 
> More details:
> the idea is to provide a graphics demo of sort algorithms for my 13 year old
> son.  A number of lines of differring lengths are shown on the screen, and
> you can watch as these are sorted, step by step.  So you can see the
> difference between bubble sort, ripple sort, etc.
> Code copied below.
> Improving the smoothness of the display is the main thing I'm after.


>     
>     def refresh(self):
>         self.LCDcount.display('%3d' % cComp)    # update counters
>         self.LCDswap.display('%3d' % cSwap)
>         self.frame4.erase()                      # clear any old lines
>         p = QPainter(self.frame4)
>         mar = self.frame4.width()/100            # margin
>         vsp = 2                                  # vertical spacing
>         hrz = (self.frame4.width()-2*mar)/100    # horizontal scalar
>         p.setPen(QColor("black"))
>         for i in range(100):
>             p.drawLine(mar,mar+vsp*i,hrz*(l1[i]+1),mar+vsp*i)
>         p.setPen(QColor("blue"))
>         p.drawLine(mar,mar+vsp*b1-1,hrz*100,mar+vsp*b1-1)
>         p.drawLine(mar,mar+vsp*b2-1,hrz*100,mar+vsp*b2-1)
>         p.setPen(QColor("red"))
>         p.drawLine(mar,mar+vsp*r1+1,hrz*100,mar+vsp*r1+1)
>         p.drawLine(mar,mar+vsp*r2+1,hrz*100,mar+vsp*r2+1)
> 

To me it would seem the problems lies in the refresh routine,
you're erasing and then redrawing, a viewed object, this will
cause it to flicker around, even worse if using sizers.
There's probally a better way to do this, but when I've
been faced with this type of problem here's what I would try
and maybe it will help you or give you a different way to
look at it.

I'd create a clone of frame4, maybe frame5, only viewing
one at a time.

In my refresh routine I'd create some type of loop
and alternate them using .hide() .show() and only
do my drawing/erasing on the hidden object.

I think anyway you do it, you should only draw/erase
on a hidden object, you could also have frame4 and 5
be the same, but in the routine that calls refresh, .hide()
4, .show() 5, refresh then redraws 4, and on returning from
refresh, .hide() 5, .show()4. Anyway I thing you get the idea.

Just something I'd try.







From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 02:49:53 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:49:53 +1000
Subject: decorator syntax polling suggestion
In-Reply-To: <CISdnRfssu4lrIHcRVn-ow@powergate.ca>
References: <d11dcfba.0408121252.7690a43a@posting.google.com>
	<411BF3FC.71051A6F@alcyone.com> <CISdnRfssu4lrIHcRVn-ow@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408122349308ecf74@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:12:56 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> On the other, if there are people who are dissatisfied with
> @pie, they can vote, use the results to help them focus
> their energies on the most likely alternate candidate(s),
> and finally present a united front saying "uh, @pie
> sucks, and we have a wide consensus that syntax XXXX
> would be much better for these reasons..."

But then you end up with the opposite problem - a pile of
people say "we want this one" (say, list-before-def), it's
implemented, then all the people who prefer pie-decorators
start jumping up and down.

I don't think there's as wide a concensus as I keep hearing
about. The people who hate pie-decorators post a _lot_ - 
most people seem to either not care, or else post once or
twice and then disappear. I think I'm about the only person
posting in any volume to c.l.py in favour of the syntax, and
even then, my liking of it is also driven by a dislike of the 
other proposed syntaxes. 

Anthony


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 17:01:48 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 23:01:48 +0200
Subject: Newbie question on dictionary!!!
References: <494182a9.0408261150.a4c767f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1gj5d7h.w60mtvmxup0hN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Balaji <balaji at email.arizona.edu> wrote:

> Hello everybody...
> 
> I want to ask a simple question.
> 
> Suppose I have an list say g=['a','b','c','d']
> 
> and I have an dictionary say k={'b':20,'a':10}
> 
> Now I want to sort this dictionary on the basis of the list and if it
> doesnt find any of the element in the list then I wud like to replace
> it with zero..
> 
> so I would like to modify k into {'a':10,'b':20,'c':0,'d':0}

If you want to end up with a dictionary, the 'sorting' part is moot.
Dictionaries use hashing -- NO order whatever, thus sorting just can't
apply, can't have any sense nor meaning whatsoever in context... you
might as well talk of coloring or flavouring or housetraining a
dictionary as you might of sorting it.

You can build the dictionary you require (but it will have no ordering
whatsoever, being a dictionary) with

dict([ (x, k.get(x, 0)) for x in g ])

(in Python 2.4 you may fruitfully omit those brackets).


Alex


From trentm at ActiveState.com  Tue Aug 31 11:43:49 2004
From: trentm at ActiveState.com (Trent Mick)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 08:43:49 -0700
Subject: Intelisence (and type inference)
In-Reply-To: <du7brgrzs14.fsf_-_@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>;
	from ville@spammers.com on Tue, Aug 31, 2004 at 10:27:19AM +0300
References: <43SYc.121080$UTP.113615@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<ch0srg$87o@odah37.prod.google.com>
	<mailman.2650.1093934498.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<du7brgrzs14.fsf_-_@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>
Message-ID: <20040831084349.H16807@ActiveState.com>

[Ville Vainio wrote]
> Yes, it's non-trivial, but why is it so hard? I mean, what's the
> killer problem about type inference? I'm not talking about Starkiller
> level type inference (which has to be just right, because the code is
> actually executed) but the kind that would support IDEs for developers
> that use python in a reasonably standard way:
> 
> - Modules are imported from standard places

Handling imports (and "from foo import *") and all variable assignments
and customized sys.path's and all scoping rules and perhaps some basic
flow analysis:

    if foo == 1:
        return <a list>
    else:
        return <a dict>

Basically it just adds up. The real problem is doing this efficiently
for large libraries and for changing documents as the user types in the
IDE.

> - Ambiguous methods are annotated somehow (e.g decorators ;-).

There is no agreement in the community on how to do that. Failing that,
IDE authors are left with using one of the many suggestions out there
(most involve marking up docstrings in certain ways) or coming up with
their own.


> In cases where a name can be bound to instances of multiple different
> classes, suggest all the methods for completion:

Yup, some of that is done.


It is not impossible, but it _is_ hard. :)


Trent

-- 
Trent Mick
TrentM at ActiveState.com


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Tue Aug 31 03:04:21 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:04:21 +1000
Subject: how to get size of email attachment
In-Reply-To: <9afea2ac040830140866f46714@mail.gmail.com>
References: <63b5e209.0408301105.58b9207a@posting.google.com>
	<9afea2ac040830140866f46714@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040831000476b080f@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 22:08:42 +0100, Tim Williams (gmail)
<tdwdotnet at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 30 Aug 2004 12:05:18 -0700, Joh <joh12005 at yahoo.fr> wrote:
> > hello,
> >
> > i'm looking for a way to get total size of an email (with its attached
> > files) using library such as poplib, or ?
> >
> > can someone help me or give me an url from where to start ?
> 
> thinking aloud and off the top of my head , you could try the email
> module (python docs)

I put a recipe up on the Python cookbook for stripping out attachments
from an email message - you could adapt that to measure the sizes of
the attachments pretty easily.

http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/302086


From rnd at onego.ru  Sat Aug 14 01:53:51 2004
From: rnd at onego.ru (Roman Suzi)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:53:51 +0400 (MSD)
Subject: [Python-Dev] def ... decorate
In-Reply-To: <20040813135102.63CF.JCARLSON@uci.edu>
References: <20040813104200.63C3.JCARLSON@uci.edu>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0408132346540.3596@rnd.onego.ru>
	<20040813135102.63CF.JCARLSON@uci.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408140930570.3275@rnd.onego.ru>

(I am resending it to c.l.p because I think it belongs there)

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Josiah Carlson wrote:

>You must be joking.  Just because a signature can change doesn't mean
>that the signature is not important.
>
>I'll say it again, just in case you missed it the first time, the first
>major use of decorators are going to be in PyObjC, WHICH USES DECORATORS
>TO SPECIFY SIGNATURES.
>
>If you continue to claim that signatures are unimportant, I can't
>imagine how this discussion could continue in any sort of a productive
>fashion.

They are important. What I tried to say is that with decorators they sometime
change. It did not happen with plain def-statement. So resulting signature
must be in the docstring.

>
>Generally, describing decoration in terms of a functional approach
>is pointless, we already have a functional approach to decorations,
>which is what we are trying to remove.

...intead of making definitions squeezable into expression ;-)
as in this hypothetic example:

f = decorate(def args:
   body
)

>def f(args):
>    body
>f = decorate(f)
>

>Again, replace @ if desired.
>
>> I always thought the natural order of definition is value to define first,
>> definition to follow it.
>
>I don't know where this came from, but it is what we already have.
>def fun(args):
>    body

Probably, it comes from the math culture. Even HTML reflects this order.
Most programming languages also stick to it.

>
>> lambda a mistake? lambda a mistake... -OX
>
>Yes, lambda a mistake:
>http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=2959

Maybe it was mistake to call it "lambda" a in math. But is Windows
directories are called folders. Terminology tends to downgrade for laymen.

>> >Seemingly in Guido's opinion, @s (or other symbols) were minimal.  You
>> >can have a humble (or not so humble) opinion, but unless you can
>> >convince Guido and/or the community, it is not going to happen (I've
>> >been bitten by this myself).
>>
>> I am pretty sure @-syntax will do it into Python 2.4 and I am also
>> sure that nobody will remeber these discussions 1-2 years from now.
>
>If you are so sure, why continue arguing towards your "J3" syntax (which
>is a variation on the syntax Skip proposed)?

My mind (and not only mine) is not static. Our discussion changed it.
The only way to proof a solution is good is by having two or more
opposite opinions.

>> I wonder WHAT Python looked like if it's community discussed
>> EVERY syntax feature it had before 1.5.2. My feeling is Python
>> still missed IF-THEN-ELSE...
>You are moving off-topic.

Just minor procedural note ;)

>> GvR already decided on the syntax. His brain has already
>> calculated all those millions of possibilities (moves),
>> community response included. We have almost zero chance to
>> find better syntax for decorators.
>Considering that you were, earlier today, offering a different syntax,
>this seems quite out of character for you.

See note above.

>I am not aware of decorators in other languages, but I have kept my nose
>out of most langauges developed since I discovered Python in 2000.

This is limiting your experience. In the same period I learned Ocaml alittle
where function signatures are part of type. Ocaml intrest me because it has
an efficient compiler (on par with C) but much less typing/functionality
ratio.

>> Aren't decorators functional programming everyday feature, when
>> (in some programming languages) it is normal to define function as
>> a superposition of simpler ones?
>
>That is like saying that all programming is functional.  Is prolog a
>functional programming language?  No, it is a logic programming language,
>yet it is common in Prolog to see the following:
>
>my_and(a, b) = my_bool(a) and my_bool(b)

Not sure hat you wanted to express, but I wanted to say that in FP
languages decorators do not require special syntax as they are just
normal expressions involving function transformations.

Well, LISP doesn't require special syntax for any feature <wink>.

P.S. I feel tired by this discussion. And it is c.l.p one,
not python-dev. As we do not have enough ON TOPIC points
of disageement, I do not want to continue.


Sincerely yours, Roman Suzi
-- 
rnd at onego.ru =\= My AI powered by GNU/Linux RedHat 7.3


From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Sat Aug 28 12:43:09 2004
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:43:09 -0700
Subject: What GCC version had <stdint.h> defined?
In-Reply-To: <412eca05$0$24800$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
References: <412e39d1$1@nntp0.pdx.net> <412E55A9.9070400@v.loewis.de>
	<412e70d3$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
	<412eca05$0$24800$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
Message-ID: <4130b79a$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

Martin v. L?wis wrote:

> Scott David Daniels wrote:
> 
>> I'd like to change it <pyconfig.h> to something like:
>>     ...
>>     #if _MSC_VER > 1200
>>     #define HAVE_UINTPTR_T 1
>>     #define HAVE_INTPTR_T 1
>>     #endif
>>     ...
>>     #if GCC_VERSION >= 30100
>>     #define HAVE_UINTPTR_T 1
>>     #define HAVE_INTPTR_T 1
>>     #endif
>>     ...
>> which is arguably better even if not good enough.

> That won't help at all. PC/pyconfig.h is used only
> on Windows, not on Linux. On Linux, configure is run
> to detect presence of things.

Ah -- but my problem (which I was remiss in not describing well
enough) is just that I cannot compile _at_ _all_ on the Windows
box with minGW.  I don't give a whit about <stdint.h> except to
try to make sure the proper definition happens.  I'd like the
following extension to compile for 2.4 (it won't now) with MinGW:

     #include <Python.h>

     static PyMethodDef xyzMethods[] = {
         {NULL, NULL, 0, NULL}        /* Sentinel */
     };

     #if defined(PyMODINIT_FUNC)
     PyMODINIT_FUNC
     #else
     void
     #endif
     initxyz(void)
     {
         PyObject *module = Py_InitModule("xyz", xyzMethods);
         PyModule_AddStringConstant(module, "test", "value");
     }

The error is roughly:
     In file included from C:/python24/include/Python.h:55,
                  from xyzmodule.c:1:
     C:/python24/include/pyport.h:69: parse error before "Py_uintptr_t"
     C:/python24/include/pyport.h:69: warning: type defaults to `int'
                                      in declaration of `Py_uintptr_t'
     C:/python24/include/pyport.h:69: warning: data definition has
                                      no type or storage class
     C:/python24/include/pyport.h:70: parse error before "Py_intptr_t"
     C:/python24/include/pyport.h:70: warning: type defaults to `int'
                                      in declaration of `Py_intptr_t'
     C:/python24/include/pyport.h:70: warning: data definition has
                                      no type or storage class
     error: command 'gcc' failed with exit status 1


That is, I don't even get to my _own_ broken code.

 >>     #if _MSC_VER > 1200
 >>     #define HAVE_UINTPTR_T 1

>> Is there a better test I can do at compile time?
> 
> Depends on what you want to test for. If it is
> presence of stdint.h, you should test for
> HAVE_STDINT_H.
> 
> Regards,
> Martin

How is this as a change:

 From this:
     #ifdef MS_WIN32
     ...
     /* VC 7.1 has them and VC 6.0 does not.  VC 6.0 has a version
        number of 1200.  If some compiler does not provide them,
        modify the #if appropriately. */
     #if _MSC_VER != 1200
     #define HAVE_UINTPTR_T 1
     #define HAVE_INTPTR_T 1
     #endif

     #endif


To this:

     #ifdef MS_WIN32
     ...
     /* VC 7.1 has them and VC 6.0 does not.  VC 6.0 has a version
        number of 1200.  If some compiler does not provide them,
        modify the #if appropriately. */
     #if _MSC_VER > 1200
     #define HAVE_UINTPTR_T 1
     #define HAVE_INTPTR_T 1
     #elif HAVE_STDINT_H
     #define HAVE_UINTPTR_T 1
     #define HAVE_INTPTR_T 1
     #endif

     #endif


Or if HAVE_STDINT_H is defined under VC 7.1 (I cannot check that)
perhaps the change should become:

     #ifdef MS_WIN32
     ...

     #if HAVE_STDINT_H
     #define HAVE_UINTPTR_T 1
     #define HAVE_INTPTR_T 1
     #endif

     #endif

In any case, thanks for the help so far.

-Scott David Daniels
Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org


From david_brownell at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 24 02:11:34 2004
From: david_brownell at hotmail.com (David Brownell)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 23:11:34 -0700
Subject: py2exe, PyXML, and utf-16-be Error
References: <67e04df1.0408230913.3c12f1a8@posting.google.com>
	<u0utk832.fsf@python.net>
Message-ID: <67e04df1.0408232211.2f8b7bcd@posting.google.com>

Thanks, Thomas, that did the trick.


From jjl at pobox.com  Mon Aug  9 19:53:42 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 00:53:42 +0100
Subject: Parsing broken HTML via Mozilla
References: <mailman.1413.1092080863.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87r7qflvg9.fsf@pobox.com>

Walter D?rwald <walter at livinglogic.de> writes:
[...]
> way to get proper XML out of Mozilla? Calling mozilla on the
> command line would be OK, but it would be better if I could
> use Mozilla like a SAX parser. Is there any project that
> provides this functionality?
[...]

PyXPCOM.  Good luck compiling it.


John


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 28 02:44:18 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 08:44:18 +0200
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xzn4gwgea.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7a1o.1a5d2q410jsn2kN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xisb4xnh5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <1gj7c1a.tfdm14p3hclcN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:

> aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:
> > I know of no reason to forbid support for such "signing", no.  If you
> > want to offer a patch to zipimport to let it support whatever signing,
> > encryption, or other devilry appeals to you, this is definitely the
> > right moment if you hope to see it happen in Python 2.4.
> 
> I think the simplest is to just have zipimport understand jar files
> and their signatures.  There's enough supporting infrastructure needed
> that getting it in 2.4 is probably asking a bit much, though.
> 
> > If you mean patching zipimport to _forbid_ importing from any zipfile
> > whatsoever, including a plain vanilla one, I think it's too late for
> > THAT for Python 2.4 
> 
> If signing is supported, then there has to be a way to reject imports
> whose signatures don't verify.  It could be a runtime option or
> something, I guess.  How does zipimport work anyway?  I don't see it
> in the library doc index for 2.3.

While the overall way the new import hooks work is well documented in
their PEP, zipimport is admittedly underdocumented.  I suggest peeking
at the Python source distribution, files:
dist/src/Modules/zipimport.c
dist/src/Lib/test/test_zipimport.py

The excu^H^H^H^H reason for the documentation scarcity, you can read at
the end of the docstring for zipimport...:
"""
It is usually not needed to use the zipimport module explicitly; it is
used by the builtin import mechanism for sys.path items that are paths
to Zip archives.
"""


Alex


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Tue Aug  3 15:40:10 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 15:40:10 -0400
Subject: executing python programs as if they were on OS path (noob)
In-Reply-To: <ceoogb$7lm$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
References: <ceoogb$7lm$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408031532230.10945-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Darren Dale wrote:

> Is there a place to put python programs so I dont have to refer to the 
> absolute path everytime I want to call them? For example:
> 
> if I am in /home/me and want to execute:
> 
> python /home/me/python/export.py temp.dat
> 
> what could I do so this will work:
> 
> python export.py temp.dat

The easiest way to do this is to make the script executable directly:

1) Add the line '#!/usr/bin/env python' or '#!/path/to/python' (usually
/usr/bin/python or /usr/local/bin/python) to the top of your script, as 
for a shell script.

2) Set your script's executable bit using 'chmod a+x'.

3) Stick your script, or a link to it, in something touched by the PATH
environment variable (such as /usr/local/bin) or, if you prefer, add your
script's directory to PATH (with a line like 'export
PATH=~/my/script/directory:$PATH' in your .bashrc file).

Then you can execute your script just by specifying its name.



From theller at python.net  Thu Aug 12 11:27:33 2004
From: theller at python.net (Thomas Heller)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:27:33 +0200
Subject: Developing a Tool Band for IE in Python
References: <ff9bee6c.0408120658.28a3fdf7@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <4qn8e5qy.fsf@python.net>

fischerlaender at gmx.de (Stefan Fischerl?nder) writes:

> After searching Google and Google Groups for several hours I did not
> find an answer to my question.
>
> Is Python suitable for developing a tool band (something like the
> Google Toolbar) to be placed in the Internet Explorer's rebar? Does
> anyone even have any tutorial or something similiar?
>
> Thank you very much.
> Stefan

ctypes (0.9.0) recently got a toolband sample - although currently it's only an
empty template displaying a button.

Thomas


From f.geiger at vol.at  Fri Aug  6 02:16:28 2004
From: f.geiger at vol.at (F. GEIGER)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 08:16:28 +0200
Subject: [py2exe.i18n] English works, German works,
	but not French. What do I miss?
Message-ID: <cev7g9$3fm$1@newshispeed.ch>

When I start a py2exe-ed application I get the error

'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xe9' in position 10: ordinal not in
range(128)

This is how I run py2exe:

setup.py py2exe -O1 --packages encodings

This is how the .po-file looks like:

# SOME DESCRIPTIVE TITLE.
# Copyright (C) YEAR ORGANIZATION
# FIRST AUTHOR <EMAIL at ADDRESS>, YEAR.
#
msgid ""
msgstr ""
"Project-Id-Version: PACKAGE VERSION\n"
"POT-Creation-Date: Sun Jul 18 13:44:27 2004\n"
"PO-Revision-Date: YEAR-MO-DA HO:MI+ZONE\n"
"Last-Translator: FULL NAME <EMAIL at ADDRESS>\n"
"Language-Team: LANGUAGE <LL at li.org>\n"
"MIME-Version: 1.0\n"
"Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1\n"
"Content-Transfer-Encoding: ISO8859-1\n"
"Generated-By: pygettext.py 1.5\n"


#: ..\..\..\MainFrame.py:97
msgid "Could not connect to database: %s. "
msgstr "Impossible de se connecter ? la base de donn?es: %s. "

etc.

However, the English and German language versions works. The German version
works since  I added "--packages encodings" to the call to py2exe. I thought
this would cover all Western European languages.

What do I miss?

Many thanks in advance
Franz GEIGER

P.S.:

The language switch ing in my app is done this way:

      languageCode = Settings().value("GUI", "Language")
      _Logger.debug(thisName + "(): Settings say language is '%s'. " %
languageCode)
      try:
         if "de" == languageCode:
            _Logger.debug(thisName + "(): Switch messages.mo to 'de'. ")
            gettext.translation('messages', 'Texts', languages=["de"],
fallback=True).install(unicode)
         elif "fr" == languageCode:
            _Logger.debug(thisName + "(): Switch messages.mo to 'fr'. ")
            gettext.translation('messages', 'Texts', languages=["fr"],
fallback=True).install(unicode)
         else:
            _Logger.debug(thisName + "(): Switch messages.mo to 'en'. ")
            gettext.translation('messages', 'Texts', languages=["en"],
fallback=True).install(unicode)
      except Exception, e:
         _Logger.exception("An exception occurred: %s. " % e)







From benn at cenix-bioscience.com  Tue Aug 17 07:10:14 2004
From: benn at cenix-bioscience.com (Neil Benn)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:10:14 +0200
Subject: serial and threads
In-Reply-To: <39ba6e78.0408170215.59f5bfc0@posting.google.com>
References: <39ba6e78.0408170215.59f5bfc0@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <4121E796.1040407@cenix-bioscience.com>

Silke wrote:

>Hi all!
>
>I'm trying to write a program in python using the modules
>'serialwin32' and 'thread' to create one thread that writes to a
>
>  
>
<snip>
Hello,

          I've done a similar implementation, I always assume that - 
unless the documentation for a class specifically states that it is 
thread-safe then I assume it isn't.  The way I get around the issue you 
have is to lock access to the serial object (s in your case).  The way I 
get around this is to use the InWaiting method (or whatever the 
equivalent will be in your serial module) which will return how many 
bytes are waiting, then I can read that number of bytes from the serial 
port, store the information and release the lock on that port. :

        self.__objLock.acquire()
        try:
            intNoChars = self.__objSerialPort.inWaiting()
            if (intNoChars > 0):
                strReceivedString = self.__objSerialPort.read(intNoChars)
                self.newMessage(strReceivedString)
            self.__objLock.release()
        except:
            self.__objLock.release()
            raise   

    Obviously you will also want to lock on all other access to the 
port, close, open, write, etc.

    P.S. Please don't start ranting about my use of Hungarian!!

Cheers,

Neil

-- 

Neil Benn
Senior Automation Engineer
Cenix BioScience
BioInnovations Zentrum
Tatzberg 47
D-01307
Dresden
Germany

Tel : +49 (0)351 4173 154
e-mail : benn at cenix-bioscience.com
Cenix Website : http://www.cenix-bioscience.com



From cito at online.de  Thu Aug 12 15:12:24 2004
From: cito at online.de (Christoph Zwerschke)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 21:12:24 +0200
Subject: multiline snippets with triple quotes
Message-ID: <cfgff0$p3o$1@online.de>

I sometimes use triple quotes in order to produce snippets of multiline
code, like that:

if output == html:
    snip =    '''<html>
                    <head><title>Hello, World</title></head>
                    <body bgcolor="aqua"><h1>What's up?</h1>
                    </html>'''
else:
    snip = 'Hello!'

This has the advantage that you don't need to care for inserting newlines
and escaping quotes and is very readable.

However, the triple quoted strings will also contain the indentation of the
Python block. It would not really matter here, since whitespace is ignored
in this case, but there could be situations where whitespace at the
beginning of the lines would matter, and it simply makes no sense to carry
over the identation in most cases.

Of course, I could simply unindent the triple quoted snippets, but then the
Python code starts to become unreadable, if you have many of such snippets
in deeply indented blocks. And isn't bad indentation something that Python
usually forbids "by force" even?

So, what would be the pythonic way to implement such multiline snippets?

Gtx
Chris




From bokr at oz.net  Tue Aug 10 20:56:33 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 00:56:33 GMT
Subject: measuring 1/100th seconds, what function?
References: <pan.2004.08.10.21.16.01.728029@yahoo.com>
	<IpKdnWmNFKf1o4TcRVn-gg@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <cfbqs1$1fi$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:30:14 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:

>Jonas K?lker wrote:
>
>> I'm doing a Rubik's Cube timer, so I need a function to measure 100ths of
>> a second. I've browsed through the library reference of python.org, but I
>> didn't find anything that struck me as 'the perfect fit'. Either it was
>> system dependent, or it was too grainy (lo-res), or... something else.
>
>It usually helps to specify what you looked at, and perhaps why you
>didn't think it was acceptable, to avoid us retracing your steps...
>
>> so, I need a function which satisfies (in order of importance):
>> 
>> 1. It can be used to measure time in the range of up to approximately 1
>> minute with an accuracy down to 100th-seconds (that's 60000~65536
>> different values). Better accuracy is a bonus, longer time-frame is a
>> bigger bonus.
>> 
>> 2. it must run on any version of windows upon which python 2.4 can run
>
>These two constraints cannot be met simultaneously, I believe.
>Windows98 does not provide adequate resolution in the timer.
>
>If you are willing to forego Win98 and use only the real Windows OSes,
>then I think you get roughly (?) 10ms resolution already with
>time.time().  Linux probably gives 1ms resolution or better in pretty
>much all cases with time.time().
>
On windows I like to use time.clock()
For NT4 with python 2.3.2 (yeah I ought to upgrade both ;-)

 >>> from time import time,clock
 >>> min(filter(None,[-(time()-time()) for i in xrange(100000)]))
 0.0099999904632568359
 >>> min(filter(None,[-(clock()-clock()) for i in xrange(100000)]))
 5.8666657594130811e-006

IOW, time apparently gets the NT4 basic os time slice delta (10ms),
whereas clock tries to get something better (and it's pretty good).
The filter call is because time()-time() makes a lot of zeroes.
clock() is fast enough not to require it. Not one zero in 100k, anyway.
 >>> min([-(clock()-clock()) for i in xrange(100000)])
 5.8666656741479528e-006

And that's not the minimum resolution of the timer clock() uses, it's
near the minimum time between two readings you can get from python.
Maybe some other loop mechanism can get two two samples faster and
then subtract them. A game for someone ;-)

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Thu Aug 19 21:15:56 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:15:56 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
References: <20040817181725194-0400@braeburn.themorgue.org>
	<10i9msuatli5p84@news.supernews.com>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-D24476.14010119082004@localhost>
	<10ia3aa8j6tbma5@news.supernews.com>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-AE7E18.17313219082004@localhost>
Message-ID: <10iak82as5fqk3d@news.supernews.com>

"Michael J. Fromberger" <Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU> wrote
in message news:Michael.J.Fromberger-AE7E18.17313219082004 at localhost...
> In article <10ia3aa8j6tbma5 at news.supernews.com>,
>  "John Roth" <newsgroups at jhrothjr.com> wrote:
>
> > "Michael J. Fromberger" <Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU>
wrote
> > in message news:Michael.J.Fromberger-D24476.14010119082004 at localhost...
> > > In article <10i9msuatli5p84 at news.supernews.com>,
> > >  "John Roth" <newsgroups at jhrothjr.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > In other words, forget the use cases.  They're irrelevant.
> > >
> > > On this point, I strongly disagree.  If you don't have a use case,
there
> > > is no point whatsoever in arguing about the syntax of a feature.
> >
> > There is a use case. If you go back and read the original
> > post I was replying to, it contains the sentence:
> >
> > [begin quote]
> > I guess others had bigger plans for my proposal that I had planned.  It
> > has turned into the "solution" to many problems: type checking (both
> > arguments and returned values), metaclasses, metadata, interfaces,
> > function attributes, etc.).
> > [end quote]
>
> Ah, I see.  I misunderstood your intent.  My apologies.
>
> Nevertheless, I think it's clear the Python community at large ought to
> have a clearer idea of exactly what the use cases ARE (and, more
> importantly, what they're not) before deciding on a syntax.  It's not
> clear to me that there's consensus on purpose yet (as witness the wildly
> divergent ideas that have accumulated on the wiki, comp.lang.python, and
> python-dev).

I don't think they're particularly related. Functionally, whatever happens
as the result of a decorator will be the return of an object which
will be bound to the class or module (or serve as the input to another
decorator, of course.) In most cases, this will either be the original input
or a descriptor that has the original input as an attribute.

This is a very generic mechanism of amazing simplicity. It can be put
to as many uses as one wishes. There are currently implementations
of just about everything that has been suggested, including Design
by Contract, Aspects and several forms of type checking.

The whole question of syntax is simply orthogonal. The current
syntax works perfectly well; it's just very poor from an intention revealing
standpoint.

John Roth
>
> Cheers,
> -M
>
> -- 
> Michael J. Fromberger             | Lecturer, Dept. of Computer Science
> http://www.dartmouth.edu/~sting/  | Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA




From tim.hochberg at ieee.org  Tue Aug 17 11:48:52 2004
From: tim.hochberg at ieee.org (Tim Hochberg)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:48:52 -0700
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
In-Reply-To: <10i2st1h94pqm2d@corp.supernews.com>
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>	<RGwTc.37687$js3.13758840@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>	<m34qn2n2du.fsf@g2ctech.com>
	<41214271_1@127.0.0.1>	<roy-70FF06.19425116082004@reader1.panix.com>	<41215667$1_1@127.0.0.1>
	<10i2st1h94pqm2d@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <cft9d7$fq8$1@sea.gmane.org>

Jeff Shannon wrote:
> beliavsky at aol.com wrote:
> 
>> You may want to exit a nested loop when testing if a condition involving
>> several variables is met, such as searching for a zero of a multivariate
>> function.
>> In Python you can print i,j,k and exit() when m == 0, but in a larger 
>> program
>> you may want more control.
>>  
>>
> 
> In this case, I can see several Pythonic ways of doing this.
> 
> One would be to use an exception.  While exceptions are not considered 
> good control structures in other languages, they *are* considered 
> acceptable (and even desirable) in Python.
> 
> Another way would be to wrap the nested loops inside a function, and 
> simply return the appropriate triple from that function as soon as you 
> find it.
> 
> An improvement on that would be to replace your return statement with a 
> yield.  Suddenly you've got a generator that'll find a whole series of 
> Pythagorean triples!
> 
[SNIP perfectly good Pythag. triple generator]

Just for fun, here's one that will spit out as many reduced pythagorean 
triples as you care to look at.

-tim


def gcd(a, b):
     # Euclidean alg.
     assert (b > 0) and (b > 0)
     if a < b:
         a, b = b, a
     while b:
         a, b = b, a % b
     return a

def rptriples():
     "generate reduced pythagorean triples"
     # Based on formulae from Mathworld, corrected by one from
     # planetMath.
     v = 1
     while True:
         u = 1 + (v%2) # u must be opposite parity from v
         while u < v:
             if gcd(u,v) == 1:
                 u2, v2 = u*u, v*v
                 a, b, c = v2-u2, 2*u*v, u2+v2
                 if a > b:
                     a, b = b, a
                 yield a, b, c
             u += 2
         v += 1






From nhodgson at bigpond.net.au  Thu Aug 19 18:58:46 2004
From: nhodgson at bigpond.net.au (Neil Hodgson)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:58:46 GMT
Subject: SciTE as editor for Python: No print formatting under LINUX.
References: <4124ad63.349803125@news.compuserve.de>
Message-ID: <GgaVc.1652$F7.318@news-server.bigpond.net.au>

Konrad Koller:

> Under Windows print formatting (header, footer etc.) is OK. Under
> LINUX it does not work. SciTEGlobal.properties state around line 352:
>
> # Printing - only works on Windows
>
> Why? How is print formatting determined under LINUX (PLAT_GTK)?

   On Windows, the same API is used for drawing to the screen and printer so
SciTE performs printing itself. GTK+ doesn't provide a printing API so SciTE
calls an external application, with the default being a2ps set by
command.print.*=a2ps "$(FileNameExt)"

   Neil




From tuanglen at hotmail.com  Thu Aug  5 04:36:33 2004
From: tuanglen at hotmail.com (Tuang)
Date: 5 Aug 2004 01:36:33 -0700
Subject: saving streaming audio to disk
Message-ID: <df045d93.0408050036.34ff7883@posting.google.com>

Given a URL for an MP3 audio stream, how could I write a little
utility that would start the stream flowing, capture it to a disk
file, and then disconnect from the stream? I'm imagining that, for
example, if I save an hour-long chunk taken out of an MP3 audio
stream, I would get an hour-long MP3 file on my hard drive.

I'd prefer to use Python, but I'm not sure where to start.

Thanks for any tips.


From danb_83 at yahoo.com  Sun Aug  8 03:42:09 2004
From: danb_83 at yahoo.com (Dan Bishop)
Date: 8 Aug 2004 00:42:09 -0700
Subject: Mailing lists
Message-ID: <ad052e5c.0408072342.4cc3d258@posting.google.com>

Has anyone here implemented a mailing list server in Python?


From john at grulic.org.ar  Mon Aug 30 16:31:57 2004
From: john at grulic.org.ar (John Lenton)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 17:31:57 -0300
Subject: Search for AVI file?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408302208480.1162-100000@kleigh.nl>
References: <ol17j0pdpiuubu6f9n5vpho4136vimsq6n@4ax.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408302208480.1162-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <20040830203157.GA10271@grulic.org.ar>

On Mon, Aug 30, 2004 at 10:12:04PM +0200, Peter Kleiweg wrote:
> John Doe schreef:
> 
> > I realise that this is not really a python question, but python's the
> > only language I'd be comfortable trying to deal with this.
> >
> > What I need is to search a drive and find all the AVI format files
> > that are NOT listed with the AVI extension.  I'm looking over an old
> > drive of mine from an old computer.  I know the files were renamed
> > with the wrong extension, but I know that they were originally AVI
> > files.  Can python do this for me?  Any hints?  Anybody have a link to
> > something that would already do this?  I appreciate any help.
> 
> Use walk() to find all files. Open each file and read in the
> first 12 bytes. The last four of those 12 bytes should be
> 'AVI ', if I'm not mistaken.

Correct. According to file(1)'s database, there are two types of AVI:

    0 string RIFF RIFF (little-endian) data
    [...]
    >8      string          AVI\040         \b, AVI
    [...]
    0       string          RIFX            RIFF (big-endian) data
    [...]
    >8      string          AVI\040         \b, AVI

(meaning that little-endian AVIs start with 'RIFFAVI ', whereas
big-endian start with 'RIFXAVI ').

HTH

-- 
John Lenton (john at grulic.org.ar) -- Random fortune:
BOFH excuse #10:

hardware stress fractures
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From specmark at aol.com  Wed Aug  4 12:41:36 2004
From: specmark at aol.com (expecthealth)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:41:36 -0000
Subject: Data Warehouse Architect -- West Suburban Chicago
Message-ID: <cer3k0+i162@eGroups.com>

JOB DESCRIPTION
Data Warehouse Architect
(Permanent, Full-Time)

______________________________________________________________________
_________
Position Description:
The Data Warehouse Architect is responsible for design, 
specifications, development, testing and deployment for Oracle data 
warehouse functionality, reports, extracts and interfaces.  Leads 
small teams of developers to achieve prioritized deliverables.
Position Qualifications:
(Education, experience and skill levels)
?	BS/BA Degree in Computer Science or equivalent
?	2 to 5 years experience implementing Oracle data warehouse 
solutions
?	Experience with the Oracle eBusiness Suite Application 
version 11i data model
?	Experience working with Oracle TARs via Metalink
?	Working knowledge of the function of the eBusiness Suite 
Applications version 11.i
?	Strong working knowledge of Oracle Warehouse Builder (OWB), 
Oracle Reports and Oracle Discoverer reporting and developer tools.
?	Strong working knowledge of PL/SQL
?	User community contact requires communications skills
Position Characteristics:
?	Excellent verbal and written communications skills
?	Proven problem-solving skills
?	Ability to work on multiple tasks and assignments. 
?	Interact with configurators, DBAs, etc. on coordinated 
deliverables
?	Ability to work with limited supervision
?	Maintain appropriate documentation for all designs and 
development work
?	Follow published development methodology and assist in 
refinements as appropriate
?	Resolve Help Desk Tickets as necessary
?	Share "on call" responsibilities for after-hours support as 
required
?	Other duties as needed and or assigned

SALARY RANGE:  $80's, depending on background.


Position located in the Western suburbs of Chicago

Please forward resumes to:
Bill Norris, Manager
DIAMOND CONSULTING INC.
630-586-0000 x19
specmark at aol.com 





From fred at acme.com  Sat Aug 21 11:10:09 2004
From: fred at acme.com (Fred)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 17:10:09 +0200
Subject: [newbie] Strange behavior of the re module
References: <2ejdi01btug5iskb4ipjpj7eaprd8i7vgm@4ax.com>
	<4126CFCC.8000609@zephyrfalcon.org>
	<ohkdi05et02gt0lkkg5hhfa5t7banb7bab@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2094.1093065202.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<86hei0prvp55iom91df23tffh04egefeig@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3toei056qnmk8nkesta47mncuh49asscht@4ax.com>

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:50:40 +0200, Fred <fred at acme.com> wrote:
>That did it :-) Thx a bunch.

Mmmm... The above links and hints did teach more about the infamous
"blackslash plague", but I'm still stuck because all the examples
consider static strings, while I'm building it dynamically by
extracting data from a web page through the re module:

----------------------------------------------
import sys
import re

#1. Extract stuff between BODY tags
input = "<body>c:\temp</body>"
body = re.search('<body.*?>(.*?)</body>',input,re.IGNORECASE |
re.DOTALL)
if body:
	body = body.group(1)
print "Body = " + body

#2. Insert extracted stuff into template
output = "<body>here's the path: </body>"
output = re.sub('</body>', body + "</body>", output)
print output
----------------------------------------------

I also tried running this before so that the problem would go away,
but Python doesn't like it either:

body = re.sub(r'\',r'\\',input)

The script does run, but 
Fred.


From adurdin at gmail.com  Sat Aug 28 18:40:33 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 08:40:33 +1000
Subject: allowing braces around suites
In-Reply-To: <41310350$0$13687$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87hdqok9i6.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1rfz68ely9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<876574k7du.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1r3c28ejis.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<zILXc.54863$xi6.26091@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<xjvpt5aexeb.fsf@nelja.ifi.uio.no>
	<41310350$0$13687$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a0408281540472d6b45@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 00:12:32 +0200, Christophe Cavalaria
<chris.cavalaria at free.fr> wrote:
> 
> Well, there are worse coding conventions than that. Remember that chaining
> unbraced if and else if becomes ambiguous.

Oh yes. I was bitten again by that just a couple of days ago. I had:

if(sometest)
    do(this);
else
    do(that);

And needed another (separate) test for do(this), so naturally changed
the code to be:

if(sometest)
    if(othertest)
        do(this);
else
    do(that);

It made me wish I was writing the program in Python -- no silly braces
to have to put in there :)


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 12:52:50 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:52:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Decorator keyword options - brainstorming
References: <7knVc.4599$Jn5.3074@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<cg5150$9if$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<HioVc.4613$Jn5.3188@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<cg55e4$bgk$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <loom.20040820T185003-230@post.gmane.org>

Michael Sparks <michaels <at> rd.bbc.co.uk> writes:
> One other thing that jumped out at me is that different syntaxes
> probably work better using different keywords. (Partly why I've snipped
> decorator syntaxes)

Yeah, I noticed that pretty quickly too.  It looks though, that, of the 
suggestions requiring a keyword, only the J syntaxes are getting substantial 
support.  If it seems reasonable to others here, I think we should assume that 
when we're discussing keyword options here, we're aiming at keywords for the J 
syntaxes (and most probably J2).

Steve




From n/a  Wed Aug 25 13:31:27 2004
From: n/a (ADE)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:31:27 -0700
Subject: Am I on the right path
Message-ID: <10ipj908b7p2099@corp.supernews.com>

Hi everyone:

        I was just wondering if this code makes sense to anyone. And if I am
writing it correctly, the program seems to keep crashing. I was also
wondering if anyone had any pointers.

The program is supposed to randomly choose an ip address and try and make a
conection on port 80

Cheers to anyone who helps

# GENERATE AND TRY AND CONNECT TO RANDOM IP ADDRESS

import socket, struct, random
RAND = random.random()
PORT = 80
sock = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)

# These two functions aren't mine
def dottedQuadToNum(ip):
    "convert decimal dotted quad string to long integer"
    return struct.unpack('L',socket.inet_aton(ip))[0]

def numToDottedQuad(n):
    "convert long int to dotted quad string"
    return socket.inet_ntoa(struct.pack('L',n))
# I Think I understand them

HOST = dottedQuadToNum("24.207.19.240")
RAND = random.randrange(HOST)
HOST = numToDottedQuad(RAND)

try:
    sock.connect((HOST, PORT))
    print "connected to " + HOST + " on",
    print PORT
    sock.close()
except:
    print "could not connect to " + HOST + " on",
    print PORT


Cheers

Thank You

Andrew




From jimcser at pacifier.com  Mon Aug 16 13:01:55 2004
From: jimcser at pacifier.com (Jim Cser)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:01:55 -0700
Subject: Numarray: Using sum() within functions
In-Reply-To: <20040815142804.GA25402@unpythonic.net>
References: <10hsvoka533ci3c@corp.supernews.com>
	<20040815142804.GA25402@unpythonic.net>
Message-ID: <4120E883.8030805@pacifier.com>

Jeff Epler wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 14, 2004 at 02:07:30PM -0700, Jim Cser wrote:
> 
>>Instead, I'm trying to do something like--
>>def f3(x,y,z):
>>   for t in range(numT):
>>     tempval = f1(x,y,z,t) * f2(y,z,t)
>>
>>   outval = sum(tempval,axis = 3)
>>   return outval
> 
> 
> Here, "tempval" takes on a series of values during the for loop, then
> "sum" is used on value from the final iteration of the loop.
> 
> Perhaps you want something like
>     def f3(x, y, z):
>         temps = []
>         for t in range(numT):
>             temps.append(f1(...) * f(...))
>         return sum(temps, axis=3)
> 
> Jeff

Thanks, that works, although someone gave me one that is faster:

  def f3(x,y,z):
     tempval = 0.*x
     for t in range(numT):
       tempval += f1(x,y,z,t) * f2(y,z,t)
     return tempval

In either case, unfortunately, looping over t is extremely slow.
Ideally, there would be a way to use fromfunction() with slices as
arguments.

-Jim



From andrew.jewell at upm-kymmene.com  Tue Aug 31 10:12:59 2004
From: andrew.jewell at upm-kymmene.com (andyj)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 07:12:59 -0700
Subject: Changing the decimal separator to a comma
Message-ID: <46e5cff0.0408310612.6bb1a610@posting.google.com>

I've tried using the locale module to set the locale correctly, but
all I get is "Error: unsupported locale setting".

I'm not actually sure what the proper setting should be; I think it's
"fi" for Finland, but this is what I get when I try (under py 2.2):

 >>> locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL,"fi")
   Traceback (most recent call last):                                 
     File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?                                     
     File "/usr/python2.2.2/lib/locale.py", line 372, in setlocale    
       return _setlocale(category, locale)                            
   locale.Error: locale setting not supported      

Under 2.3 the call succeeds but makes no difference to the decimal
point (which should be a comma for Finland):

>>> locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL,"fi")
'Finnish_Finland.1252'
>>> 0.123
0.123
>>> "%10.2f" % 0.123
'      0.12'

The program I'm working on produces database records using a format
string, and I'm currently manually tracking all the dp's and replacing
them in a loop, just before writing the record to disk, but this is
inefficient and inelegant.

What I'd *like* to be able to do is specify that we want to use commas
for dp's or adjust the locale settings accordingly, then just write
the records directly from the format string...

regards, 
-andyj


From ian at cottee.org  Thu Aug 26 01:24:52 2004
From: ian at cottee.org (Ian J Cottee)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:24:52 +0900
Subject: Just a quick one
In-Reply-To: <cgjk1q$1o4$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>
References: <cgi2qq$rvp$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<cgi3ev$g6k$1@online.de><cgi5vc$m52$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<mailman.2391.1093473637.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgj95i$pl8$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<cgjk1q$1o4$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1q8002-nal.ln1@suse.zobbo.org>

M. Clift wrote:

> At the risk of looking stupid would someone mind showing me how this is done
> in this case. I can't remove the brackets from (('Bob', 'Mary'), ('Spam',
> 'chips'))  to give(('Bob', 'Mary', 'Spam', 'chips')) . From what Phil and Sm
> said I thought it would be easy. I've tried using list( ). I've had a go at
> referencing the individual elements...

Noodle around with IDLE (if using windows it should be in your python 
group). It's a great way to play with this stuff.

	>>> stuff = (('Bob', 'Mary'), ('Spam', 'chips'))

Hmmm - what is stuff?

	>>> type(stuff)
	<type 'tuple'>

I see. How big is it?

	>>> len(stuff)
	2

Ah ... so ...

	>>> stuff[0]
	('Bob', 'Mary')
	>>> stuff[1]
	('Spam', 'chips')

So in that case

	>>> morestuff = stuff[0]+stuff[1]
	>>> morestuff
	('Bob', 'Mary', 'Spam', 'chips')
	>>> type(morestuff)
	<type 'tuple'>
	>>> evenmorestuff = list(morestuff)
	>>> evenmorestuff
	['Bob', 'Mary', 'Spam', 'chips']
	>>> type(evenmorestuff)
	<type 'list'>

Well - it got rid of your brackets. But was it what you wanted? Maybe 
you actually now want.

	>>> stringstuff = ', '.join(morestuff)
	>>> stringstuff
	'Bob, Mary, Spam, chips'
	>>> type(stringstuff)
	<type 'str'>

Hmmm - getting quite stuff'y in here isn't it? :)

Ian


From fperez528 at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  9 19:32:21 2004
From: fperez528 at yahoo.com (Fernando Perez)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 17:32:21 -0600
Subject: Popular Python projects with lots of pure Python code
References: <mailman.1418.1092088893.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cf91i5$c2a$1@peabody.colorado.edu>

Brett C. wrote:

> For my thesis (once the bloody thing stops throwing bugs at me) I am
> going to need to collect stats on the frequency that atomic types in
> local variables are applied to various opcodes and methods.  That means
> that I need something to collect stats off of.
> 
> So I am trying to come up with a list of projects I can use to get my
> stats from.  the stdlib is a no-brainer.  Also plan to use Docutils.
> But beyond those most of the big Python projects I can think of have a
> ton of C code which is of no use to me.  I don't need to be able to run
> it, just going to be compiling to .py files.
> 
> Any suggestions?

well, scipy is not pure python (lots of fortran/C), but it does have a lot of
python in it.  Given that it's probably a decent representative of typical
scientific code (and scientific use of python is growing fast, see scipy'04),
it might be an interesting addition to your sample.

Best,

f


From mauriceling at acm.org  Wed Aug 25 00:55:52 2004
From: mauriceling at acm.org (Maurice LING)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 04:55:52 GMT
Subject: python raw strings?
In-Reply-To: <412bc766$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>
References: <412bc766$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>
Message-ID: <412c1bd4$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>

Thanks. I find http://www.amk.ca/python/howto/regex/ to be invaluable in 
understanding the concepts.

maurice

Maurice LING wrote:
> I'm trying to toy around with PLY (python lex-yacc) by David Beazley 
> from University of Chicago and realized that the lex module uses python 
> raw strings. What are python raw strings and how are they different from 
> regular strings? I've tried to look up in the python documentation but 
> it just vaguely brushes through by saying that python raw strings are 
> prefixed with "r" or "R".
> 
> In PLY, "+" is "r'\+'" but "-" is "r'-'", why is there an extra "\" in 
> "+"? When to use the extra "\" and when not?
> 
> Can someone point me in the correct direction?
> 
> Thanks
> Maurice


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 17 22:25:14 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 22:25:14 -0400
Subject: No validation routine for an os.path
In-Reply-To: <J4yUc.25135$nx2.20393@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <S%bUc.24081$nx2.7626@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<UOKdnTNP59f1-bzcRVn-rg@powergate.ca>
	<J4yUc.25135$nx2.20393@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <tbOdna5LQZuRI7_cRVn-hg@powergate.ca>

Edward Diener wrote:

> Operating systems do have rules for what constitutes a valid file
> specification and/or directory specification. Some even have API functions
> which can be called to directly find out.

True, but with dynamically loadable extensions to the OS, it
seems unlikely that the builtin API for checking filename
validity will necessarily handle a completely new filesystem
that was created after the OS was released...

 > Peter Hansen wrote:
>>In the end, this is somewhat like validating email addresses.  Until
>>you actually try and succeed (or fail) to send the message, you cannot
>>verify whether an address is "valid" for many definitions of valid.
> 
> I do not totally agree, especially as the OS will know whether something is
> valid so it obviously has rules itself. 

Again, the OS might have rules, but they can't always apply
to things that are not really part of the OS, as an add-on
might be.  I'm sure that in most cases the add-on would not
be expanding the set of allowable characters, but it's
certainly not unusual for the set to be narrowed.

 > BTW email addresses actually do have a format which
> can be parsed ( RFC 822 originally ), although again it is complicated.

I was careful to say "for many definitions of valid".  Valid might
be as trivial as checking whether it matches a particular format
(though I think the term "legal" might be more usual there), but
it could also mean "the address actually exists and can receive
mail" in which case you really can't know for sure unless you
try.

In the end, however, I still think the answer to your query is
an unfortunate "sorry, not available".

-Peter


From donnal at donnal.net  Mon Aug 23 18:01:21 2004
From: donnal at donnal.net (Donnal Walter)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:01:21 -0500
Subject: telnet 'connection reset by peer'
In-Reply-To: <cgdef2$g9j$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>
References: <mailman.2213.1093280012.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgd95a$ftt$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>	<mailman.2227.1093282794.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgdef2$g9j$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <cgdpfi$69a$1@sea.gmane.org>

Eddie Corns wrote:
> Donnal Walter <donnal at donnal.net> writes:
> 
> 
>>Eddie Corns wrote:
> 
> 
>>>Donnal Walter <donnal at donnal.net> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Windows XP I am able to connect to a remote telnet server from the 
>>>>command prompt using:
>>>
>>>
>>>>telnet nnn.nnn.nnn.nnn 23
>>>
>>>
>>>>where nnn.nnn.nnn.nnn is the IP address of the host. But using 
>>>>telnetlib, this code returns the traceback that follows:
>>>
>>>
>>>>import telnetlib
>>>>host = 'nnn.nnn.nnn.nnn'
>>>>tn = telnetlib.Telnet(host, 23)
>>>>tn.read_until("Enter device name?")
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Traceback (most recent call last):
>>>> File "C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\mindwrapper\test\telnet.py", line 
>>>>4, in ?
>>>>   tn.read_until("Enter device name?")
>>>> File "C:\Python23\lib\telnetlib.py", line 316, in read_until
>>>>   self.fill_rawq()
>>>> File "C:\Python23\lib\telnetlib.py", line 521, in fill_rawq
>>>>   buf = self.sock.recv(50)
>>>>socket.error: (10054, 'Connection reset by peer')
>>>
>>>
>>>>Is there some parameter that I need to set in order to connect using the 
>>>>telnetlib client? Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>>No, that should work, to a reasonably conforming telnet server.  Try doing
>>>tn.set_debuglevel(2) before the read_until() to see what's coming back.
> 
> 
>>Telnet(nnn.nn.nnn.nnn,23): recv 
>>'\xff\xfb\x03\xff\xfd\x03\xff\xfb\x01\xff\xfd\x1
>>7\xff\xfb\x00\xff\xfd\x00'
>>Telnet(nnn.nn.nnn.nnn,23): IAC WILL 3
>>Telnet(nnn.nn.nnn.nnn,23): IAC DO 3
>>Telnet(nnn.nn.nnn.nnn,23): IAC WILL 1
>>Telnet(nnn.nn.nnn.nnn,23): IAC DO 23
>>Telnet(nnn.nn.nnn.nnn,23): IAC WILL 0
>>Telnet(nnn.nn.nnn.nnn,23): IAC DO 0
>>Traceback (most recent call last):
>>  File "C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\mindwrapper\test\telnet.py", line 
>>5, in ?
>>    tn.read_until("Enter device name?")
>>  File "C:\Python23\lib\telnetlib.py", line 316, in read_until
>>    self.fill_rawq()
>>  File "C:\Python23\lib\telnetlib.py", line 521, in fill_rawq
>>    buf = self.sock.recv(50)
>>socket.error: (10054, 'Connection reset by peer')
> 
> 
>>Thank you for the suggestion. Can you help me interpret the feedback?
> 
> 
> The IACs are commands embedded in the data stream.  This page:
> http://www.scit.wlv.ac.uk/~jphb/comms/telnet.html looks like a decent overview
> of how telnet works.  The purpose here is to negotiate what the capabilities
> of the telnet session (eg echo).  Looking at the code in telnetlib, it seems
> to always send back DONT or WONT for every option (ie refuses to support or
> use any option requested).  It's possible the server is deciding that on this
> basis it cannot proceed.  There doesn't seem to be a single place where all
> the telnet options are described so I don't know what 0,1,3,23 actually are.
> This page might help: http://home.swipnet.se/cfmd/rfc/dir/telnet.html
> You might try using the tn.set_option_negotiation_callback() method to send
> your own negotiation messages back if you think that what it is asking for is
> harmless (you could snoop on your windows session, eg with ethereal, to see
> what windows is sending back).

Thank you. Dealing with telnet at this low level is all new to me, so 
the urls and pointers were helpful. In particular, I downloaded ethereal 
(also new to me) and filtered the packets by ip address. This way I 
found that 0 is 'binary transmission', 1 is 'echo', 3 is 'suppress go 
ahead' and 23 is 'send location' (plus I learned how to send location).

> It seems a bit drastic to behave this way but I suppose it depends on what the
> server is trying to do.  I wouldn't rule out it being a completely different
> problem but nothing springs to mind.  It may be easier to experiment with
> options using a raw socket, copy the code in telnetlib.

I still have not decided how I am going to tackle this. My first attempt 
is likely to be an option_negotiation_callback function as you suggested 
above. In any case, your suggestions have been most helpful. Thanks, again.

Donnal Walter




From fumanchu at amor.org  Fri Aug 27 12:30:32 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:30:32 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3027BA2@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> Note that Robert has sent the completed proposal to python-dev,
> and in fine Python tradition, buggered off for the weekend.
> So I'm not entirely sure it's worthwhile posting more
> for/against messages now.

I'll continue to collect them, and post updates on Monday. So feel free.

Now, I'm *really* gone.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 06:38:05 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:38:05 +1000
Subject: How to sort this kind of list easily?
In-Reply-To: <20040820092940.9FAF61E4003@bag.python.org>
References: <20040820092940.9FAF61E4003@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082003386ab0c10a@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:03:51 +0800, BruceKL WhoH <brucewhohkl at gawab.com> wrote:
> Hi,all
>      I have a list like [(id,string),...],for example:
> 
>      [(1,'xxxxx'),(7,'ppppp'),(4,'gggggg'),...]
> 
>          I want to sort this list according to the id of each element. After sorting,the list will become:
> 
>      [(1,'xxxxx'),(4,'gggggg'),(7,'ppppp')...]


>>> l=[(1,'xxxxx'),(7,'ppppp'),(4,'gggggg'),(2,'ffff'),(12,'hhhhh')]
>>> l.sort()
>>> print l
[(1, 'xxxxx'), (2, 'ffff'), (4, 'gggggg'), (7, 'ppppp'), (12, 'hhhhh')]

list.sort sorts tuples by first argument, then second &c. If you want a
custom sort order, look at the decorate-sort-undecorate pattern.

Anthony


From iketo2 at netscape.net  Sat Aug 28 23:20:10 2004
From: iketo2 at netscape.net (Isaac To)
Date: 29 Aug 2004 11:20:10 +0800
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87hdqok9i6.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1rfz68ely9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<876574k7du.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1r3c28ejis.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<zILXc.54863$xi6.26091@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<xjvpt5aexeb.fsf@nelja.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <87r7pqwryt.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>

>>>>> "Igor" == Igor V Rafienko <igorr at ifi.uio.no> writes:

    Igor> I am a bit curious, what are the arguments _against_ an
    Igor> explicit end-of-block marker? Does such a marker create any
    Igor> problems? (I know that it solves a couple, though).

(1) it solves nothing unless it is universally used, (2) universally
using explicit braces makes even simple functions long, and (3) long
functions are bad because they are hard to comprehend (once you can't
put a function into a single screen you lose a lot).  I believe the
net effect of adding explicit braces is much worse than what we have
now.

Regards,
Isaac.


From reply.in.the.newsgroup at my.address.is.invalid  Sun Aug 22 19:32:21 2004
From: reply.in.the.newsgroup at my.address.is.invalid (Rene Pijlman)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 01:32:21 +0200
Subject: Python is to C as letters are to words.
References: <b14bfabe.0408221055.4f2dc1e7@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.2164.1093201904.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<z59Wc.9049$Jn5.7516@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <n5bii0ho3p5iqon1pe4k06ebvt8rfk7kif@4ax.com>

Paul McGuire:
>Maybe Gary meant "letters" like when I write a letter to my wife, 

Do you think he meant performance? How often do you write letters to your
wife, and how long does it take you?

-- 
Ren? Pijlman


From stnchris at xmission.com  Mon Aug  9 18:54:55 2004
From: stnchris at xmission.com (Steve Christensen)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:54:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Percentage matching of text
References: <1678860800.20040730075239@MailBlocks.com>
	<mailman.958.1091195562.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnchg05v.7lk.stnchris@xmission.xmission.com>

In article <mailman.958.1091195562.5135.python-list at python.org>, Bruce
Eckel wrote:
> 
> What I'd like to do is find an algorithm that produces the results of
> a text comparison as a percentage-match. Thus I would be able to
> assert that my test samples must match the control sample by at least
> (for example) 83% for the test to pass. Clearly, this wouldn't be a
> perfect test but it would help flag problems, which is primarily what
> I need.
> 
> Does anyone know of an algorithm or library that would do this? Thanks
> in advance.
> 

Have you come across the following yet?

Levenshtein C extension module for Python:
http://trific.ath.cx/resources/python/levenshtein/


And/or:
http://hetland.org/python/distance.py


-Steve


From justin__devine at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 30 15:21:06 2004
From: justin__devine at hotmail.com (Justin)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 12:21:06 -0700
Subject: Size of a remote URL
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2625.1093889709.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgvun2$q15@odbk17.prod.google.com>

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&output=search&num=5&q=temp+filetype%3Adoc

Go to that URL.  The first two search results do not return a
Content-Length Header.  Yet IE still knows how big they are somehow,
whereas my code doesn't.  I tried ethereal however the problem is I
don't knwo how to read the packets correctly to udnerstand where the
requests are.  Thanks for the help..

[None, None, '297984', '31744', '23040']

My tuple ends up looking like that.  The last three numbers are correct
file sizes.



From ivan at ivan-herman.net  Sat Aug 14 09:27:08 2004
From: ivan at ivan-herman.net (Ivan Herman)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:27:08 +0200
Subject: xml question
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1651.1092488767.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1651.1092488767.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <411e1322$0$190$cd19a363@news.wanadoo.nl>

I think this is a bug in your python call. AFAIK, 'string.strip(str)' 
*returns a copy of a string with stripped whitespace*. Ie, it does not 
affect the original string, in this case the nodeValue...

Ivan


Ajay wrote:

> hi!
> 
> i am trying to remove all whitespace elements out of a document.
> 
> my code is below
> 
> def stripWhiteSpaces(doc):
> 	whiteSpaces = xpath.Evaluate("//text()", doc.documentElement)
> 	counter=0
> 	while(counter< len(whiteSpaces)):
> 		str = whiteSpaces[counter].nodeValue
> 		string.strip(str)
> 		if len(str) == 0:
> 	       whiteSpaces[counter].parentNode.removeChild(whiteSpaces[counter])
> 
> 		counter += 1
> 	return doc
> 
> however this isn't working. when i print out all the elements in the
> document, i still get the whitespace text elements.
> what am i doing wrong?
> 
> thanks
> 
> cheers
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 23:55:14 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:55:14 +1000
Subject: [PATCH] RE: J2 decorator grammar
In-Reply-To: <412a4c8f$0$65908$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net>
References: <mailman.2145.1093167850.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<412889c8$0$81159$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>
	<Xns954E6899E51E1arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.29>
	<412a4c8f$0$65908$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408232055611e20b4@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:37:49 +0100, Michael Sparks
<zathras at thwackety.com> wrote:

> I'm not going to impose anything (hence using SpanishInquisition for easy
> search and replace), however personally I'm swayed by "using" right now the
> most. (Ideally something like "decorate using" in a single clear word would
> be good, but in all likelihood not realistic)

"wallpaper"
"curtains"
"throw_cushions"
...


From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Tue Aug 31 17:46:03 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:46:03 -0700
Subject: xmlrpclib
References: <413409c3$0$22823$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>
	<2hkd02-v7v.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<413462a1$0$5242$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <m78f02-une.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

Graeme Matthew wrote:
> What I am trying to establish is if the server is asynchronous i.e
> multi-threaded i.e what happens when 2 requests hit the server at
> once?

That depends which server you use.  The SimpleXMLRPCServer uses
the standard Python SocketServer stuff, so you can do it in
as many different ways as you want.

> I am trying to find other people who have used it successfully as
> most of my dev work is in python.

I use xml-rpc, but instead of over HTTP, I actually do it over
SSH (using the Paramiko library for the SSH).  It works well
for cross country/continent stuff.

In another project I just use the default one request at a time
handler in the Python xmlrpc server end.  The client is in PHP
running on the same machine.

Roger 




From swheatley at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 13:30:04 2004
From: swheatley at gmail.com (Shawn Wheatley)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:30:04 -0400
Subject: Best GUI- Python for children - pygame and blender32
In-Reply-To: <f06d8508.0408250712.63360fc2@posting.google.com>
References: <f06d8508.0408250712.63360fc2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <ad37863d0408251030438f635@mail.gmail.com>

You may want to try Wax (http://zephyrfalcon.org/labs/)  It is a
higher level GUI that sits on top of wxPython.  This gives your
children an easy entry into GUIs, and as they learn more, they can
enhance existing programs they have written with more advanced
wxPython features.  Also, because it is built on wxPython, it should
allow integration of PyGame.  Sounds like a win-win situation.  (Note:
I haven't used Wax yet, so I cannot comment on stability.  Hans Nowak
keeps a weblog of progress at http://zephyrfalcon.org/weblog2/)

Shawn

On 25 Aug 2004 08:12:48 -0700, Andr? Roberge
<andre.roberge at ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Sorry about the cryptic subject line, but I wanted to capture the
> essence of my message in a single line.
> 
> I am learning Python (which, as everyone know is the best language :-)
> so that I can write a tutorial to teach my kids about computer
> programming.  The motivation for them will be to use Python to create
> their own games using pygame and, eventually, blender3d.  From what I
> hear, their friends will be interested in that tutorial too.  When/if
> I am satisfied with it, I'll make it publicly available (first in
> French though - an English translation will have to wait).
> 
> My approach is to use what I called JITT  (just in time teaching :-)
> i.e. introducing as few concepts as are needed in order to understand
> the  "next topic", leading to game creation as soon as possible.
> 
> Seems to be working so far.
> 
> I am now at the point of writing a "chapter" on GUIs.  I've written a
> few sections about Tkinter but I haven't shown them to my kids yet as
> I am not convinced this is the best way to go; I've read enough about
> anygui, pythoncard, pyui, easygui, not to mention wxpython, etc. to
> instill doubts in my mind.  I can't really afford to take the time to
> learn enough about all of those to make an informed decision on my
> own, decision that I could regret later on.   As long as the chosen
> GUI is as easy as possible to learn but "complete" enough (and fast
> enough as an interface?) to do fun stuff with pygame (and, possibly,
> blender3d, if a separate GUI is needed), I will be satisfied.
> 
> Any advice would be much appreciated.
> 
> Andr? Roberge
> 
> PS  As for the python survey, I'm 43 years old, started learning about
> Python about a month ago, have done some programming in the past for
> fun using Fortran, C, and java, but haven't done any serious
> programming for years and it is not required at all for my day job.
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From donn at drizzle.com  Fri Aug 13 23:51:47 2004
From: donn at drizzle.com (Donn Cave)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 03:51:47 -0000
Subject: [OT] Keyboard layout, was Re: PEP318
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cffdba$ko0$04$1@news.t-online.com>
	<Y+l*oRTrq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
	<roy-439B02.10321912082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<L-C*RvUrq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
	<m3y8kjmfli.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <1092455506.274331@yasure>

Quoth Michael Hudson <mwh at python.net>:
...
| Huh?  On *my* mac <wink> @ is shift-2 and # is option-3.

What kind of keyboard has a key for <wink> @?

	Donn Cave, donn at drizzle.com


From mwh at python.net  Tue Aug  3 08:42:32 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:42:32 GMT
Subject: Importance of C# (was Re: IronPython-0.6 is now available!)
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.921.1091114694.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<uy8l2g5ln.fsf@broadpark.no>
	<mailman.973.1091207420.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<uzn5gsexl.fsf@broadpark.no>
	<7u5tpvap1oh5.1h1v27kmjvf04$.dlg@40tude.net>
	<uvfg49gmy.fsf@broadpark.no>
	<t1ZOc.4478$Jp6.3264@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <m3zn5cgzpk.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

"Edward Diener" <eldiener at earthlink.net> writes:

> Tor Iver Wilhelmsen wrote:
> > Lawrence Oluyede <raims at dot.com> writes:
> >
> >> Nesting classes is an unneeded complication, and AFAIK is not pure
> >> MI. I think that the only "bare MI support" that Java does have are
> >> MI of interfaces...
> >
> > There is nothing pure about MI. But that's a religious dicussion.
> > Python handles it better than C++ at least.
> 
> Why do you say that ? In other words, what in Python's implementation of MI
> is superior to C++'s implementation of MI ?

Cooperative super calls and the notion of an MRO are *vastly* superior
to the horrors of C++.

MI with classic classes in CPython kinda sucks in comparison.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
 "I lacked the courage to investigate the weaknesses of the wicked,
  because I discovered they are the same as the weaknesses of the
  saintly."                       -- The Name Of The Rose, Umberto Eco


From uj797 at victoria.tc.ca  Tue Aug 17 10:41:54 2004
From: uj797 at victoria.tc.ca (Arthur T. Murray)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 06:41:54 -0800
Subject: Mind.py
Message-ID: <41220b22@news.victoria.tc.ca>

Now, suppose that you wanted to write an AI in Python that would
implement your mind-model and allow it to grow, mutate, develop.
Here is one possible scenario.

It would not be necessary to do all the work yourself. If we
began coding a baby Mind.py and published the initial code
out on the Web, other Python programmers might start adding
to it and start specializing in the refinement of hotspots.

http://mind.sourceforge.net/aisteps.html begins with a list
of six modules (Security; Sensorium; Emotion; Think; Volition;
Motorium) that could be roughed out as a looping chain as in
http://mind.sourceforge.net/jsaimind.html -- the JavaScript AI.

You or anyone else who disagreed with the choice or naming of
the top-level mind-modules could simply web-publish a Mind.py
with a different arrangement of mind-modules in Python.
Non-global variables could be used, and each coder could
web-publish a Table of Mind.py Variables for reference.

Although it might seem trivial to web-publish only the
initial chain-loop of the cycling mind-modules, one has
to start coding AI somewhere, and there might be novice
Python programmers who would learn Python by coding AI.

[Uh oh; I just got the urge to post this plan on Usenet!]

At a certain critical mass, the Python AI code might escape
the purview of any single code-maintainer and speciate so
widely, so wildly, that Python became the language of choice
for all teaching of AI and all early AI implementations.

I mean, what are the relative Web-saturations of Python and Perl?
Recently on SlashDot or elsewhere I was reading that those who
want a job learn Java, while those who want to code, use Python.
The idea was that Python attracts those who write the best code.

Anyway, once Mind.py code starts appearing on the Web, it may
mutate. If not, "Survival of the fittest" sounds its death-knell.
But results are not instant. Months or years may first go by.

Since I do not know Python, I would keep working on the JavaScript
AI, which I would eventually retro-port into the Mind.Forth AI.

Now in news:comp.lang.python I will post much of the above text.

Sincerely,

Arthur T. Murray
-- 
http://mind.sourceforge.net/python.html -- Python AI Weblog


From dostatnig at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 10 17:03:44 2004
From: dostatnig at yahoo.com (Grzegorz Dostatni)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:03:44 -0600
Subject: PyQt + PygreSQL
References: <b68d2f19.0408101243.42644a11@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <opscjbgindyendvp@news.srv.ualberta.ca>


I don't know how to set it up using pygresql, but you can do it using 
qtsql module. Just make sure that qt was compiled with the postgresql 
support.

If you need to use pygresql for some reason, you could always try to have 
multiple connections to the database from you code (one through qtsql 
module, another through qtsql). That will probably get very ugly very 
quickly.

Greg


On 10 Aug 2004 13:43:05 -0700, Neil Zanella <nzanella at cs.mun.ca> wrote:

>
> I have the following question. When I instantiate QDataTable with C++
> I must ensure that a database connection is open, and then have no
> problems, otherwise I will get popup widgets with errors.
>
> How can I properly set the default database connection and have
> QDataTable find it using the combination of Python + PyQt + PyGreSQL?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Neil



-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/


From del at mjclift.freeserve.co.uk  Fri Aug 13 02:21:42 2004
From: del at mjclift.freeserve.co.uk (Calvin79)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 02:21:42 -0400
Subject: while and if
References: <e0197c1847cb38af22dceeb8aaa6e679@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>	<mailman.1581.1092372820.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<mailman.1582.1092375949.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <78e89de7f43dc55408bc9891b77d06cc@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>

Hi Satchit,

Thankyou for what you've already done, but would you mind if I ask one
last thing and then I'll leave you alone?

In it's present form the output is fine, but I think I might like to have
it output in this format;['c', 'b', 'a', 'd']. It is probably the most
basic of questions to ask, but heck I've only been at this python stuff a
week... : )  

Calvin



From brett_gengler at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 14 15:00:15 2004
From: brett_gengler at yahoo.com (Brett)
Date: 14 Aug 2004 12:00:15 -0700
Subject: tkinter canvas bitmaps w/ xbm formated string data?
Message-ID: <9578d4b.0408141100.6b88a7ab@posting.google.com>

I'm trying to load a xbm formatted string as a bitmap and draw it to a
canvas....I don't have any trouble with loading/displaying xbm files,
it's when I've pre-created the xbm as a string I get a 'can't find
your bitmap error'

<created my canvas and I draw other objects that are displayed
correctly>

xbm_string = "#define arrow_width 1 #define arrow_height 16 static
char arrow_bits[] = {
0x01,0x01,0x01,0x01,0x01,0x01,0x01,0x01,0x01,0x01,0x01,0x01,0x01,0x01,0x01,0x01
};"
        
a_bitmap = Tkinter.BitmapImage(data=xbm_string) 

print a_bitmap.width() #prints out 1
print a_bitmap.height() #print out 16

canvas.create_bitmap(100,100, bitmap=a_bitmap)  #if I used
bitmap="@line.xbm" with the exact same string as defined above, the
xbm is displayed correctly.


When the create_bitmap executes I get:
  File "C:\June 5th datamaster\colorlabel.py", line 360, in
_createtext
    self.canvas.create_bitmap(100,100, bitmap=a_bitmap)
  File "<string>", line 1, in create_bitmap
  File "C:\Python23\lib\lib-tk\Tkinter.py", line 2057, in
create_bitmap
    return self._create('bitmap', args, kw)
  File "C:\Python23\lib\lib-tk\Tkinter.py", line 2049, in _create
    return getint(self.tk.call(
TclError: bitmap "pyimage1" not defined

...I have a feeling that I somehow lost a reference to my bitmap
object...I'm not sure what's happening.

any ideas what could be wrong?

Brett


From outpost at rumblefish.org  Fri Aug  6 10:53:09 2004
From: outpost at rumblefish.org (Thomas D'Tak)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 16:53:09 +0200
Subject: Python milestone releases
References: <pan.2004.08.05.22.55.55.192128@rumblefish.org>
	<mailman.1238.1091757273.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.06.14.53.09.160329@rumblefish.org>

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 11:54:27 +1000, Anthony Baxter wrote:
>
> I'm not sure how "2.3" isn't a milestone in any way that's meaningful.
>

For programmers, I agree.

But for other people (server admins etc.), I think, the following
would be important:

- First of all, it should be mentioned somewhere (in a prominent place,
  such that even first-time visitors of python.org can find it easily).

- Not every release should be a milestone release; 
  milestones should not come more often than maybe every 2 years.
  (E.g. 2.0 and 2.3 would have been good candidates IMO.)

And -even for programmers- the following could be important:

- Some kind of support would be needed for the milestone releases, 
  even after the release of other -non-milestone- Python versions; 
  (e.g. bug fixes, backports of important new packages).


Martin v. L?wis describes in his follow-up to my original posting, that
some of the above did hold for Python 2.2. (But, actually, I was not aware
of that.)

Th.



From kosh at aesaeion.com  Fri Aug 13 16:20:00 2004
From: kosh at aesaeion.com (kosh)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:20:00 -0600
Subject: Why I love python.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408131550010.4386-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1631.1092426395.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408131550010.4386-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <200408131420.00460.kosh@aesaeion.com>

On Friday 13 August 2004 2:03 pm, Christopher T King wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, kosh wrote:

> > I have seen more then a few cases where a bug like temp file creation
> > was found to be a problem in python and in some c code. However the
> > difference is that you can update the python runtime and all affected
> > python programs are fixed. The same is not true of the c versions.
>
> What?  C programs use a runtime library, just the same as any other
> language.  Google for "libc.so" or "msvcrt.dll" if you don't believe me.
>

I do know that c programs can be dynamically linked and most of the time on 
unixes they seem to be. But it seems to be far too common that the library 
changes in some way that requires that the program be recompiled. I have seen 
it with both kde and gnome where just recompiling them with no changes to 
their code at all fixed library problems that where being reported.

I have never seen that kind of thing in python.

> > One of them I have run into which is a pain is stuff like openssl. When
> > that gets updated it seems a whole bunch of programs have to be compiled
> > to work with it again. The change is source compatible but for whatever
> > reason the bug fix breaks binary compatibility on a number of apps.
>
> That sounds like an openssl-specific problem, perhaps relating to
> configuration issues.  Since C libraries are linked dynamically, source
> compatibility inherently translates to binary compatibility, assuming
> functions were not moved to different libraries or rewritten as macros (or
> vice-versa).
>

I don't know why they break. I know that they do.

> In a perfect world, all OSes would use proper package management systems,
> and single-executable programs would not be needed.  Unfortunately, this
> isn't true.

Well in my world everything is written for unixes and deployed on unixes and 
most of them are linux boxes which have good package systems.


From daniel.dittmar at sap.com  Tue Aug 10 12:09:54 2004
From: daniel.dittmar at sap.com (Daniel Dittmar)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:09:54 +0200
Subject: Decorators proposal
References: <19b62f17.0408100741.7f2712ac@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfas0h$olv$1@news1.wdf.sap-ag.de>

RebelGeekz wrote:
> Just my humble opinion:
>
> def bar(low,high):
>     meta:
>         accepts(int,int)
>         returns(float)
>     #more code
>
> Use a metadata section, no need to introduce new messy symbols, or
> mangling our beloved visual cleanliness of python.

+1

This also allows to set function properties inside of the function
def handler (match):
    meta:
        pattern = re.compile (...)

equivalent to

def handler (match):
    ...
handler.pattern = re.compile (...)

Daniel






From FBatista at uniFON.com.ar  Fri Aug 27 11:46:18 2004
From: FBatista at uniFON.com.ar (Batista, Facundo)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:46:18 -0300
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
Message-ID: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C788A@escpl.tcp.com.ar>

[Anthony Baxter]

#- Note that Robert has sent the completed proposal to 
#- python-dev, and in
#- fine Python tradition, buggered off for the weekend. So I'm not
#- entirely sure it's worthwhile posting more for/against messages now.

Yes, it's worthwile. He will add in any new signatories on Sunday night.

.	Facundo
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From barnesc at onid.orst.edu  Mon Aug  2 18:52:43 2004
From: barnesc at onid.orst.edu (barnesc at onid.orst.edu)
Date: Mon,  2 Aug 2004 15:52:43 -0700
Subject: flowcharting is automatic for Python via preprocessor  
Message-ID: <1091487163.410ec5bb4da9f@webmail.oregonstate.edu>


I like your idea.

It is easy to get lost inside in eg a multiply nested if statement in a couple
multiply nested for loops, inside a try block.

Sometimes one can split such code into separate functions, and this makes the
code cleaner.  Sometimes not.

However, the real issue is how the eye parses code.

It's really inefficient to scan a whole page of code line by line to understand
where loops, branches, continues, and breaks occur.

I think your visual diagrams could help, if they are:

1. Semantically cleaner.
   IMO, there is too much detail in the flow diagrams.
   (See http://www.getcet.org/images/ex3.png).

   A minimal amount of detail is easier to parse with the eye.

   See http://oregonstate.edu/~barnesc/temp/flow.pdf for a cleaner
   example I came up with.  This doesn't have arrows all over the
   place (and hence may not be a flow diagram), but it does help
   point out the relevant control structures.

2. Integrated into a code editor.

   I could see this being a new code editor fad, like collapsable
   functions and classes.

   It could be quite useful, if the amount of visual information
   is kept minimal, so that the coder is not distracted during
   coding.

   If the flow diagrams are not integrated into an editor, I don't
   think many coders will use them.

Perhaps editors already do this.

 - Connelly


From shimpeR3M0V3TH1S at esat.kuleuven.4NDTH1S.ac.be  Tue Aug 17 08:42:42 2004
From: shimpeR3M0V3TH1S at esat.kuleuven.4NDTH1S.ac.be (Stefaan)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:42:42 +0200
Subject: music resources
In-Reply-To: <CObUc.124363$J06.99175@pd7tw2no>
References: <CObUc.124363$J06.99175@pd7tw2no>
Message-ID: <1092746565.680953@seven.kulnet.kuleuven.ac.be>

You may want to look at http://www.linux-sound.org
Have a look in the section software synthesis. It
contains links to many audio synthesis and music composition
projects.

If you like JAVA, have a look here:
http://jmusic.ci.qut.edu.au/

Greetings.

Elaine Jackson wrote:
> Is there such a thing as an executable language for music? If not, why not? And
> if yes, where can I find it? Naturally the ideal thing would be if such a
> language were implemented within python, but I would be willing to learn a
> lesser programming language if I had a reasonable assurance that it had what I'm
> looking for. I have, of course, googled for a solution, and I may have even
> found it, but if so I didn't recognize it as such. Any pointers will be mucho
> appreciado.
> 
> Peace
> 
> 


From python-url at phaseit.net  Tue Aug 17 20:53:58 2004
From: python-url at phaseit.net (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 00:53:58 +0000
Subject: Dr. Dobb's Python-URL! - weekly Python news and links (Aug 18)
Message-ID: <mailman.1870.1092839197.5135.python-announce-list@python.org>

QOTW "Implementations are always preferred over rhetoric." - Robert Brewer

"The programmers you'll be able to hire to work on a Java project won't be
as smart as the ones you could get to work on a project written in Python." -
Paul Graham
    http://www.paulgraham.com/gh.html


    Colin J. Williams shows Mizrandir how to subclass numarray's arrays.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=df3955c3.0408140908.1b9bfb63%40posting.google.com
    
    Hoang Do receives various suggestions how to drop into the interpreter
    from a running script.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=mailman.1679.1092569474.5135.python-list%40python.org
    
    Kyle Root asks for help arranging a dependency tree of Python modules
    and receives both theoretical background information on the problem
    and code implementing a "topological sort".
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=6ccff37a.0408111831.6eb25a4e%40posting.google.com
    
    Timothy Fitz starts a discussion of the differences between Python's
    generators (an overwhelming success) and coroutines.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=972ec5bd.0408141032.385fe115%40posting.google.com
    
    Fazer learns that he has competition in the area of scripts
    that retrieve weather forecasts from the web.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=6491b0ab.0408121917.5103b770%40posting.google.com
    
    Coming from a C++ background, Olivier Parisy feels uneasy with the
    use of exceptions to control program flow in non-exceptional
    situations. Peter Hansen and several others tell him not to worry.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=411775aa%240%2417867%24626a14ce%40news.free.fr
    
    Roman Suzi has a clear vision of Python 3.0's design process in 2015.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=mailman.1672.1092553249.5135.python-list%40python.org
    
   We resist all urges to say more about decorators or white space. 
    
    
========================================================================
Everything Python-related you want is probably one or two clicks away in
these pages:

    Python.org's Python Language Website is the traditional
    center of Pythonia
        http://www.python.org
    Notice especially the master FAQ
        http://www.python.org/doc/FAQ.html

    PythonWare complements the digest you're reading with the
    marvelous daily python url
         http://www.pythonware.com/daily  
    Mygale is a news-gathering webcrawler that specializes in (new)
    World-Wide Web articles related to Python.
         http://www.awaretek.com/nowak/mygale.html 
    While cosmetically similar, Mygale and the Daily Python-URL
    are utterly different in their technologies and generally in
    their results.

    comp.lang.python.announce announces new Python software.  Be
    sure to scan this newsgroup weekly.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python.announce

    Brett Cannon continues the marvelous tradition established by 
    Andrew Kuchling and Michael Hudson of intelligently summarizing
    action on the python-dev mailing list once every other week.
	http://www.python.org/dev/summary/

    The Python Package Index catalogues packages.
        http://www.python.org/pypi/

    The somewhat older Vaults of Parnassus ambitiously collects references
    to all sorts of Python resources.
        http://www.vex.net/~x/parnassus/   

    Much of Python's real work takes place on Special-Interest Group
    mailing lists
        http://www.python.org/sigs/

    The Python Business Forum "further[s] the interests of companies
    that base their business on ... Python."
	http://www.python-in-business.org

    The Python Software Foundation (PSF) has replaced the Python
    Consortium as an independent nexus of activity.  It has official
    responsibility for Python's development and maintenance. 
        http://www.python.org/psf/
    Among the ways you can support PSF is with a donation.
        http://www.python.org/psf/donate.html

    Cetus collects Python hyperlinks.
        http://www.cetus-links.org/oo_python.html

    Python FAQTS
        http://python.faqts.com/

    The Cookbook is a collaborative effort to capture useful and
    interesting recipes.
	http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python

    Among several Python-oriented RSS/RDF feeds available are
	http://www.python.org/channews.rdf
	http://bootleg-rss.g-blog.net/pythonware_com_daily.pcgi
	http://python.de/backend.php
    For more, see
	http://www.syndic8.com/feedlist.php?ShowMatch=python&ShowStatus=all
    The old Python "To-Do List" now lives principally in a
    SourceForge reincarnation.
        http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?atid=355470&group_id=5470&func=browse
        http://python.sourceforge.net/peps/pep-0042.html
     
    The online Python Journal is posted at pythonjournal.cognizor.com.
    editor at pythonjournal.com and editor at pythonjournal.cognizor.com
    welcome submission of material that helps people's understanding
    of Python use, and offer Web presentation of your work.

    *Py: the Journal of the Python Language*
        http://www.pyzine.com

    Archive probing tricks of the trade:
        http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python&num=100
        http://groups.google.com/groups?meta=site%3Dgroups%26group%3Dcomp.lang.python.*

Previous - (U)se the (R)esource, (L)uke! - messages are listed here:
  http://www.ddj.com/topics/pythonurl/         
  http://purl.org/thecliff/python/url.html (dormant)
or
  http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_q=+Python-URL!&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python


Suggestions/corrections for next week's posting are always welcome.
E-mail to <Python-URL at phaseit.net> should get through.

To receive a new issue of this posting in e-mail each Monday morning
(approximately), ask <claird at phaseit.net> to subscribe.  Mention
"Python-URL!".


-- The Python-URL! Team--

Dr. Dobb's Journal (http://www.ddj.com) is pleased to participate in and
sponsor the "Python-URL!" project.




From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Wed Aug  4 22:29:27 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Thu,  5 Aug 2004 12:29:27 +1000
Subject: cgi script headers - help
Message-ID: <1091672967.41119b8746b79@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

i am generating a file on the fly and making a user download it.
print "Content-Type: application/model\n\n"
print "Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=modeldef3\n"
print str

i set the Content-Disposition to force a download dialog box and also give
the file a name.
however when i view the headers sent by my script, i have only
HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 02:26:48 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.19 (Unix)
Connection: close
Content-Type: application/model

why isn't the Content-Disposition header coming up?

thanks

cheers

--
Ajay Brar,
CS Honours 2004
Smart Internet Technology Research Group





----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From srumbalski at copper.net  Sat Aug 21 17:08:10 2004
From: srumbalski at copper.net (Steven Rumbalski)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 17:08:10 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4127b8ad_4@newsfeed.slurp.net>

Lucas Raab wrote:

> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer??

I may as well get in on the game.  I'm 31 and started programming when I was
26 in c++.  I was intrigued by python, but was wooed by the marketability
of java and learned it in 2000.  I finally learned python in 2001 and have
never looked back.

Programming is a hobby for me--I wish it were more than that.  I am a
customer service rep in real life.

Steven Rumbalski


From franz04 at yahoo.fr  Thu Aug 19 10:58:17 2004
From: franz04 at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Francis=20Lavoie?=)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:58:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20040819145817.91134.qmail@web50107.mail.yahoo.com>

25 but still new to python.
I'm a windows/linux system admin by
profession/obligation, and then never developpe my
programming skills very much since I'm out of school.
I start using python a month ago, because I was
suppose to build a php dynamic website (only news),
but the client doesn't have php support. So my option
was, asp or python.
Now I have builded a client site cms lite program that
update news by ftp. First I though it would be only a
patching solution, but wow, now I can buil a full cms
lite client application, that keep it very simple for
user. After cleaning the code (well I was learning in
the same time) and comment it, I think I'll opensource
it somewhere.
Python is amazing and it will start a new programming
odyssey for me ;-)


__________________________________________________________
L?che-vitrine ou l?che-?cran ?
magasinage.yahoo.ca


From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 22 18:02:09 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 17:02:09 -0500
Subject: python doesn't like my numbers
In-Reply-To: <2osfspFdnjbcU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <2osfspFdnjbcU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <UI8Wc.1370$MR2.6616@news1.mts.net>

paul k wrote:
> hi,
> 
> is there any way to convince python not to take my (phone)numbers 
> starting with zero as octals?
> 
>  >>> int(088)
>   File "<stdin>", line 1
>     int(088)
>           ^
> SyntaxError: invalid token
> 
> thanks
>  Paul

int("088")


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Mon Aug  9 18:31:48 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:31:48 -0700
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1092091116.31608@news.commspeed.net>


"Fred" <nobody at nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158 at 4ax.com...
> Hi,
>
> I'm currently checking out Python as an alternative to VB.Net
> to moving from VB, but can't find a GUI designer that is as good as
> VB.
>
> I tried wxDesigner and wxGlade, but neither lets me move the widgets
> around. I also tried Dialogblocks, but it seems to only handle C++ or
> XRC, not Python.
>
> Is this all there is, or is there a gem I missed?
>
> Thank you
> Fred.

wxPython has all you need, it is easy to use sizers but if your stuck on
visual design use the XML resource editor.

Tom




From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug  3 15:30:03 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 15:30:03 -0400
Subject: executing python programs as if they were on OS path (noob)
In-Reply-To: <ceoogb$7lm$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
References: <ceoogb$7lm$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <EpOdneEAjIQgepLcRVn-sA@powergate.ca>

Darren Dale wrote:
> Is there a place to put python programs so I dont have to refer to the 
> absolute path everytime I want to call them? For example:
> 
> if I am in /home/me and want to execute:
> 
> python /home/me/python/export.py temp.dat
> 
> what could I do so this will work:
> 
> python export.py temp.dat

At least two options (assuming you're on Linux... you
didn't specify your OS unfortunately):

1. Make the scripts executable (+x with chmod), make sure
the folder they are in *is* in the OS path, and put in the
following as the first line of the scripts:

     #!/usr/bin/env python

2. Make your own shell script which knows where to look for your
Python files and execute that instead of "python".  Call it "mypy"
or something to make sure you don't mess up anything else in the
system which wants the normal behaviour with "python".

Note that with your example above, you don't have to use the full
absolute path, as just "python python/export.py temp.dat" would
work.

-Peter


From nid_oizo at yahoo.com_removethe_  Fri Aug 20 04:13:10 2004
From: nid_oizo at yahoo.com_removethe_ (Nicolas Fleury)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 04:13:10 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <7x3c2iw9ig.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<7x3c2iw9ig.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <eniVc.23883$Mt5.1158908@wagner.videotron.net>

Paul Rubin wrote:
> 1. My favorite variant was not in the list.

What is it?  I added E4 before voting because it was not on the list;)

Regards,
Nicolas


From gry at ll.mit.edu  Thu Aug 26 12:46:25 2004
From: gry at ll.mit.edu (george young)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 09:46:25 -0700
Subject: property puzzle
Message-ID: <78b6a744.0408260846.5dc5a0cf@posting.google.com>

[python 2.3.3, x86 linux, part of a substantial gtk/postgres app]
I want a Run instance to have a Status instance which inherits
from Observable. I want to be able to say:
 
    thisrun.status = 'planned'

and have thisrun's _set_status do side-effects and then the status
object's setter incorporate the new value as it's new state.
But the setter functions never seem to get called. 
Am I using "property" wrong?

class Observable:              #("observer" software pattern)
    def __init__(self):
        self.observers = []
    def register(self, func, *args, **kw):
        self.observers.append((func, args, kw))
    def notify(self):
        for func, args, kw in self.observers: func(*args, **kw)

class RunStatus(Observable):
     def __init__(self, val):
         Observable.__init__(self)
         self._value = val
     def set(self, newval):
         print 'RunStatus.set'
         self._value = newval
         self.notify()
     def get(self):
         print 'RunStatus.get'
         return self._value
    
class Run:
    def __init__(self):
        self._status = RunStatus('planned')
    def _get_status(self):
        return self._status
    def _set_status(self, val):
        # do various things with val...
        self._status.set(val)
    status = property(_get_status, _set_status)
    
if __name__ == '__main__':
    def stat_display():
        print 'display to screen: r.status=', r.status
    r = Run()
    r.status.register(stat_display) #many registers in real app.
    r.status='hold'
    print 'status=', r.status
    print r._status.observers

Status needs to be a real and persistant object so it's
observers persist, but needs it's value changed simply, like
   r.status = 'something'

[flames about using string values for what is semantically a
 six valued enum *are* welcome in a separate thread...]


From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Aug  5 17:54:49 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 23:54:49 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
In-Reply-To: <ceu67e$ioa$00$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no>
	<ceu67e$ioa$00$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <4112aca9$0$24859$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

Peter Otten wrote:
> Could
> 
> # -*- coding: ascii -*-
> 
> be sufficient? 

No. He still wants to allow non-ASCII in Unicode literals and
comments.

Regards,
Martin


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 17:01:49 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 23:01:49 +0200
Subject: Static properties
References: <mailman.2426.1093530829.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1gj5e8n.xujsah4chw0gN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Per Erik Stendahl <python-spam at berrs.net> wrote:

> Hello everyone,
> 
> Is it possible to define "static properties" in a class?

Yes, but only by defining a custom metaclass to be the type of that
class.  Properties are defined in the type, not in the instance; so, for
a class itself to have properties, the class's type, commonly known as
its metaclass, must be the one defining them.


>>> class metaPath(type):
...     def curdir(cls): return os.getcwd()
...     curdir = property(curdir)
... 
>>> class Path: __metaclass__ = metaPath
... 
>>> print Path.curdir
/Users/alex/cb/dblite/dblite_0.5


_However_...:

>>> print Path().curdir
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
AttributeError: 'Path' object has no attribute 'curdir'
>>> 

if you want to be able to get at property curdir on INSTANCES of Path as
you normally would for a staticmethod, yet with property syntax, I think
you need to get a bit more clever than this... descriptors don't get
looked up two metalevels up, only one...


Alex


From martindemello at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 05:54:35 2004
From: martindemello at yahoo.com (Martin DeMello)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:54:35 GMT
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<jt6dnb98R-eH6rDcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <vriXc.219829$gE.39929@pd7tw3no>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> Martin DeMello wrote:
> 
> > It seems to be a fairly common pattern for an object-modifying method to
> > return None - however, this is often quite inconvenient.
> ...
> > this is actually getting in my way a lot when scripting Blender - for
> > instance, I can't say move(Vector([a,b,c]).normalize()), I have to do
> >       a = Vector([a,b,c])
> >       a.normalize()
> >       move(a)
> 
> By the way, the second version is much more readable than
> the first, so perhaps there is a secondary reason for this
> "return None" thing in addition to the more important one...

It depends on what you're doing - to me, the first is simply "the
normalised vector (a,b,c)", inlined. It's a single concept, much like an
inlined string is - would you want to do the following?
a = "Hello "
a = a + str(name)
print a

martin



From danb_83 at yahoo.com  Sat Aug  7 05:21:15 2004
From: danb_83 at yahoo.com (Dan Bishop)
Date: 7 Aug 2004 02:21:15 -0700
Subject: How to force a single number to be a tuple
References: <mailman.1138.1091636758.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-6EC9F2.12271204082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1142.1091637381.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1a517b5.0408061329.429de7fc@posting.google.com>
	<roy-0B13C1.18151306082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <ad052e5c.0408070121.145cc070@posting.google.com>

Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote in message news:<roy-0B13C1.18151306082004 at reader1.panix.com>...
> bryanjugglercryptographer at yahoo.com (Bryan Olson) wrote:
> > Python tuples overlap too much with lists, and differ from the 
> > functional/relational view in which a tuple is an element of the 
> > Cartesian product of zero or more domains.
> 
> For those of us who went to school a while ago, and perhaps didn't pay 
> as much attention in math class as we should have, could you translate 
> "an element of the Cartesian product of zero or more domains" into 
> English?

The Cartesian product of X and Y is the set [(x, y) for x in X for y in Y].


From cpl.19.ghum at spamgourmet.com  Sun Aug  8 07:28:14 2004
From: cpl.19.ghum at spamgourmet.com (Harald Massa)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 11:28:14 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu> <cf3b56$gt6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>
	<du7smayidxy.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>
	<Xns953F7763A998cpl19ghumspamgourmet@195.20.224.116>
	<cf4ub3$msb$1@namru.matavnet.hu>
Message-ID: <Xns953F8910730B8cpl19ghumspamgourmet@195.20.224.116>

Mikl?s,

>> I do not understand at all what's that decorators thingy, but I know
>> that girls often put some deco into flats and it really looks cosy
>> after, so I assume that decorators are not on the dark side of the
>> source. 

> The rest of the novelties in v2.4 are more or less fine with me, too.
> But IMHO decorators are exactly Dark Code Wader stuff. Basically it's
> about self-modifying code.

So you are suggesting that THE SOURCE it is strong with this young padawan? 
But I'm sure considered carefully the BDFL has before giving in, hasn't he?

I honestly ask that someone could explain to the less enlightened like me 
what this decorator thingy really is. What does it make a correct step on 
the path to enlightenment?

Harald


From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Thu Aug 12 14:33:47 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:33:47 -0700
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
	<cf8trp$lnp$1@nic.grnet.gr>
	<a22gh0dsb94ffqqjqhb3igufi65ap7pg4d@4ax.com>
	<pkulu1-74f.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<30260531.0408102005.5847b9c@posting.google.com>
	<3hpou1-09i.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<30260531.0408120944.5d9ea9f2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <9ppsu1-fjs.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

simo wrote:
> So how are you generating this interpreter/bytecode archive? It
> basically sounds like the kind of thing py2exe does, but you've made
> an object file or something. How did you calculate the dependencies?

It is all discussed in the presentation at
http://bitpim.org/papers/baypiggies

Slides 18 thru 23.  On Windows I use py2exe, Linux I use cxFreeze
and Mac uses BundleBuilder.

> I'm heading off to your site to see if you have the build environment
> in with the source ;o)

It is.  The simplest one is in the dotamatic source.  Look for a file
named makedist.py.  A more complicated variant of makedist.py is in
the BitPim source.

   http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/dotamatic
   http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/bitpim

(I can't give longer links as SF CVS stuff is down at the moment).

Roger 




From tdelaney at avaya.com  Sun Aug 22 18:55:20 2004
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy))
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 08:55:20 +1000
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
Message-ID: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01D59448@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy) wrote:

> Anyway, my vote is C1, C1, J2.

Given how many people are being obstinate about their choice, I'm going
to change my vote to:

C1, C1, C1

;)

Tim Delaney


From Ian.Preddy at Lorien.co.uk  Wed Aug 25 12:44:22 2004
From: Ian.Preddy at Lorien.co.uk (Preddy, Ian)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:44:22 +0100
Subject: Are you avail...
Message-ID: <8C6F2C03232E7E4CA899EC669704958701273299@lonads02.lorien.co.uk>

I am currently searching for a Python developer to fill the following requirement:

Python Developer required to work for a major investment bank.  Candidates must have recent commercial experience of Python development as well as Unix, Java, Windows NT / XP, Web Development (CGI or HTML), ClearCase and Perl.  The successful candidate will be responsible for development of web based release process workflow software and enhancement of a development lifecycle bug fixing system.

If this sounds of any interest please contact me at your earliest convenience.

Kind Regards

Ian Preddy
Account Executive
lorien resourcing
'  0207 654 1022(Direct Dial)
'  0207 654 1013 (Fax)
*  email Ian.Preddy at lorien.co.uk
"  Visit our web site : <http://www.lorien.co.uk>

Lorien is a founder member of ATSCO




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From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 15:45:51 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 05:45:51 +1000
Subject: Fate of lambda, Functional Programming in Python...
In-Reply-To: <FB2F45DA-F2C8-11D8-97D4-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>
References: <20040820163629.8DD4F1E401A@bag.python.org>
	<FB2F45DA-F2C8-11D8-97D4-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040820124561405568@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:50:02 -0400, Chas Emerick <cemerick at snowtide.com> wrote:
> In a comment off a post on lambda-the-ultimate, I noticed this little
> offhand remark:
> 
> '''IIRC GvR is going to kill the various lambda, map,filter & reduce
> leaving just generator expressions/list comprehension.'''

First point: lambda, map, filter and reduce won't go away before Python 3.0,
at the very least. And, to be honest, I suspect map/filter/reduce are much more
likely to die than lambda, as they can nearly always be expressed more clearly
as listcomps or genexprs. 

Having said that, and donning my interpreting-Guido-hat, the major problem
with lambda is the scoping issue. Nested scopes make this less of a problem.
In addition, the name 'lambda' was a poor poor choice.


From john at grulic.org.ar  Thu Aug 19 10:39:36 2004
From: john at grulic.org.ar (John Lenton)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:39:36 -0300
Subject: speed
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408191615210.1138-100000@kleigh.nl>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408191528100.1138-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<mailman.1956.1092923684.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408191615210.1138-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <20040819143936.GE3185@grulic.org.ar>

On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 04:16:24PM +0200, Peter Kleiweg wrote:
> John Lenton schreef:
> 
> 
> > flex has an option to generate code without the gotos...
> 
> I have the latest version. I can't find it, not as run time
> option, not as build option.

hmm! you're right... I wonder what lexer it was, then? I definitely
have a weak ref to the option in my head, but the owner has been gc'ed
:(

-- 
John Lenton (john at grulic.org.ar) -- Random fortune:
There was a phone call for you.
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From IHateSpam at sapm123.com  Tue Aug 31 11:37:14 2004
From: IHateSpam at sapm123.com (A.M)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:37:14 -0400
Subject: GUI Designer
Message-ID: <wU0Zc.9845$7i2.529166@news20.bellglobal.com>

Hi,

Do we have any OpenSource GUI designer for Python ?

Thanks,
Alan




From spam at mouse-potato.com  Fri Aug 27 21:41:22 2004
From: spam at mouse-potato.com (Pascal Bourguignon)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 03:41:22 +0200
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4dyXc.25792$Ot3.22106@twister.nyc.rr.com>
	<878yc0ucyl.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<cgnr8l$egb$1@nntp.webmaster.com>
Message-ID: <87hdqorqd9.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>

"David Schwartz" <davids at webmaster.com> writes:

> "Pascal Bourguignon" <spam at mouse-potato.com> wrote in message 
> news:878yc0ucyl.fsf at thalassa.informatimago.com...
> 
> > Kenny Tilton <ktilton at nyc.rr.com> writes:
> 
> >> >>What you mean with Unixism?
> >> >     repeated accidents. Such a tool would
> >> >     first chop off the user's brain, molding
> >> >     a mass of brainless imbeciles and
> >> >     microcephalic charlatans the likes of
> >> >     Larry Wall and Linus Torvald jolly
> >> > Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
> >> >         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>
> >> So you like my approach, which is to condemn things they have never used?
> >>
> >> :)
> >
> > No, that of no more using things that you condemn.
> 
>     I don't follow you at all. I think you'll find the most useful, 
> meaningful complaints about, say, a Ford Explorer from the people who drive 
> one every day.

I'd expect to get these complaints indeed from people who drove it,
but I'd be puzzled if they'd continued to drive it every day.

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never
stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and
neither do we.


From __peter__ at web.de  Fri Aug  6 11:02:43 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 17:02:43 +0200
Subject: 'Using is not None, may not always work'
References: <pan.2004.08.06.13.15.28.336325@dougfort.com>
Message-ID: <cf06ij$k2g$07$1@news.t-online.com>

Doug Fort wrote:

> Since I installed 2.4a2 I've been getting a warning from pychecker: Using
> is not None, may not always work'. I thought 'is not None' was the right
> thing to do. I've had problems with 'if not x:', because some objects
> return False in this context.
 
This is harmless. Starting with 2.4a2 None is a constant:

Python 2.3.3 (#1, Jan  3 2004, 13:57:08)
[GCC 3.2] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import dis
>>> def f():
...     if x is None: pass
...
>>> dis.dis(f)
  2           0 LOAD_GLOBAL              0 (x)
              3 LOAD_GLOBAL              1 (None)
              6 COMPARE_OP               8 (is)
              9 JUMP_IF_FALSE            4 (to 16)
             12 POP_TOP
             13 JUMP_FORWARD             1 (to 17)
        >>   16 POP_TOP
        >>   17 LOAD_CONST               0 (None)
             20 RETURN_VALUE
>>>

Python 2.4a2 (#1, Aug  6 2004, 16:38:38)
[GCC 3.2] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
[python 2.4a2]
>>> import dis
>>> def f():
...     if x is None: pass
...
>>> dis.dis(f)
  2           0 LOAD_GLOBAL              0 (x)
              3 LOAD_CONST               0 (None)
              6 COMPARE_OP               8 (is)
              9 JUMP_IF_FALSE            4 (to 16)
             12 POP_TOP
             13 JUMP_FORWARD             1 (to 17)
        >>   16 POP_TOP
        >>   17 LOAD_CONST               0 (None)
             20 RETURN_VALUE


When PyChecker sees the constant it supposes you are doing something like

if x is "some string": pass

which always had the LOAD_CONST op-code and is indeed dangerous. PyChecker
needs to be fixed to special-case None for 2.4.

Peter




From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 10:57:36 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 00:57:36 +1000
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <cgkprj$3lb$5@sea.gmane.org>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<cghslg$lao$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082600433e025140@mail.gmail.com>
	<cgkjm5$3lb$2@sea.gmane.org> <cgkprj$3lb$5@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040826075738a8f6ca@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:50:43 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Ok.  Then let's jettison the baggage with the word metadata and just
> call them 'magic attributes'.  It doesn't matter.  The essential point
> about them is that they almost /never have 'local variable' semantics/.
> They are attributes of the object being defined.  That's the point I'm
> trying to drive home here.  When we define __xxx__ attributes, we are
> not intending to create local variables.  No.  We are making declarations.

Explain to me how __getitem__ is a declaration while getMonkey is not,
assuming both are methods.

The only magic attribute that fits your case of "magic attribute" is
__metaclass__.
The overwhelming number of double-under names are not magic
attributes, or metadata, or whatever you want to call them.


From jeffrey at I.slack  Fri Aug 13 23:06:22 2004
From: jeffrey at I.slack (Jeffrey Froman)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 20:06:22 -0700
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1637.1092428855.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m8-dnRi9hdEtHIDcRVn-vA@cablespeedwa.com>

Terry Reedy wrote:

>> is that indentation determines the program flow -- they think its weird.
> 
> Giving that structured text (in English at least) routinely uses
> significant indentation (lists, outlines, block quotes) and that much
> algorithm pseudocode does the same (which was half the reason I called
> Python 'executable pseudocode'), I find it puzzling that so many find it
> 'weird' (if indeed that is true).

Me too, and in fact I don't believe that the people who complain about it
really think it's weird either. It's just fashionable to dislike Python for
that reason. If using indentation for program flow is so non-intuitive,
then why do C programmers complain so much about other C programmers
indentation, and spend so much energy "cleaning up" indentation to fit
their own idea of how C code should look? I'd think since indentation was
so "insignificant" that any C coder would happily accept any indentation
style as their attention "naturally" separated significant elements between
curly braces. Clearly, this is not the case though.

Jeffrey


From brian at rk-speed-rugby.dk  Tue Aug 31 04:34:08 2004
From: brian at rk-speed-rugby.dk (Brian Elmegaard)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 10:34:08 +0200
Subject: From python to LaTeX in emacs on windows
References: <u4qmkzwss.fsf@rk-speed-rugby.dk> <cgv4cs$21e$1@online.de>
Message-ID: <ufz63bta7.fsf@rk-speed-rugby.dk>

Benjamin Niemann <b.niemann at betternet.de> writes:

Thank for the help. I solved the problem by specifying the cp1252
encoding for the python file by a magic comment and for the input data file. 

> When you read the filecontents in python, you'll have the "raw" byte
> sequence, in this case it is the UTF-8 encoding of unicode text. But
> you probably want a unicode string. Use "text = unicode(data,
> 'utf-8')" where "data" is the filecontent you read. After processing
> you probably want to write it back to a file. Before you do this, you
> will have to convert the unicode string back to a byte sequence. Use
> "data = text.encode('utf')".
> 

This worked, but when I try to print text I get:
UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode characters in position 9-10: ordinal not in range(128)
Why is that?

> Handling character encodings correctly *is* difficult. 

What makes it difficult? The OS, the editor, python, latex?

-- 
Brian (remove the sport for mail)
http://www.et.dtu.dk/staff/be


From mike.ayers at tumbleweed.com  Sun Aug 15 00:19:29 2004
From: mike.ayers at tumbleweed.com (Mike Ayers)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 04:19:29 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Raw IP packets on Linux
Message-ID: <loom.20040815T060144-272@post.gmane.org>


I am trying to compose raw IP packets on Linux, then send them out a chosen
interface.  So I do:

sock = socket.socket( socket.AF_PACKET, socket.SOCK_DGRAM )
sock.bind(( '192.168.1.3' ))

So far so good.  I create a packet (pkt) which contains the complete IP
datagram.  ID is set to 0 to tell the kernel to stamp it for me.  However, I am
so far unable to send the packet (pretend ']' is '>'):

]]] sock.sendto( pkt, ('192.168.1.4', 0))
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
socket.error: (19, 'No such device')


What am I getting wrong here?   What address type does this socket expect?


Thanks,

/|/|ike




From casey at zope.com  Thu Aug  5 13:32:53 2004
From: casey at zope.com (Casey Duncan)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:32:53 -0400
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051213180.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<200408051851.08457.heikowu@ceosg.de>
Message-ID: <20040805133253.70f83d66.casey@zope.com>

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 18:51:08 +0200
Heiko Wundram <heikowu at ceosg.de> wrote:

[..]
> Think of the following: (old style)
> 
> class x(object):
> 	def __init__(self):
> 		self.lock = threading.RLock()
> 
> 	def synchronized_method(self):
> 		self.lock.acquire()
> 		try:
> 			<bla>
> 		finally:
> 			self.lock.release()
> 
> That's just plain horrible compared to what @ decorators can do:

Seems clear to me.
> 
> class x(object):
> 	synchronized = InstanceSynchronizer()
> 
> 	@synchronized
> 	def synchronized_method(self):
> 		<bla>
> 
> Writing the InstanceSynchronizer is pretty easy too:
> 
> class InstanceSynchronizer(object):
> 
> 	def __init__(self):
> 		self._locks = {}
> 		self._refs = {}
> 
> 	def _delete_ref(self,ref):
> 		del self._locks[self._refs[id(ref)][1]]
> 		del self._refs[id(ref)]
> 
> 	def __call__(self,f):
> 		def fsyn(fself,*args,**kwargs):
> 			try:
> 				lock = self._locks[id(fself)]
> 			except KeyError:
> 				lock = threading.RLock()
> 				fselfref = weakref.ref(fself,self._delete_ref)
> 				self._locks[id(fself)] = lock
> 				self._refs[id(fselfref)] = (fselfref,id(fself))
> 			lock.acquire()
> 			try:
> 				return f(fself,*args,**kwargs)
> 			finally:
> 				lock.release()
> 		return fsyn

I will grant you that InstanceSynchronizer is reusable, but look at the
volume of code here compared to the first example. I find the latter
much more complex. Regardless, decorators don't really make this pattern
possible, you could just as easily do this in 2.3:

class x(object):
    synchronized = InstanceSynchronizer()

    def method(self):
        <bla>
    method = synchronized(method)

The primary argument against this is that the rebinding is hidden down
after the method body. I personally don't find that to be a problem, and
the advantage is that it is neither a new concept nor a new syntax for
people to learn and understand. It simply leverages what is already
there and is nice and explicit.

[..] 
> Now tell me that using decorators to do synchronization isn't a lot
> easier to read than the first (old) example is, and also less
> error-prone (resp. acquiring/releasing locks properly and without
> deadlocks).

I don't disagree that it is better and more general than your first
example, however, a better and more general technique to do this already
existed before the new decorator syntax.

I just don't feel that the superficial gain of moving the declaration
above the method definition is worth the added complexity to the
language.

-Casey



From news at titanic.co.uk  Mon Aug  2 15:11:20 2004
From: news at titanic.co.uk (Simon Faulkner)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 20:11:20 +0100
Subject: Python executable on Windows
Message-ID: <410e91ce$0$58816$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk>

Hi All,

I've written a fair bit of simple Python for Linux and have been asked 
to write a program for win32.

Is it possible to write a program and add the Python interpreter so that 
I just end up with a single .exe file for windows?

I know that it will be large but it will be simple!

TIA

Simon


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 14:02:36 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 04:02:36 +1000
Subject: elements of decorator syntax suggestions
In-Reply-To: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>
References: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204080611025301f6ac@mail.gmail.com>

This is an excellent list! Thanks for doing it. I've made a couple of notes
inline about the particular points.

On 6 Aug 2004 10:19:21 -0700, Steven Bethard <steven.bethard at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think one of the biggest reasons we're having such problems coming
> to any agreement on decorator syntax is that each proposal makes a
> number of syntax decisions, not just one.  For decorators, I see the
> following decisions that must be made:
> 
> 1) Indicator
> Proposals differ on how some sort of indicator of "decoratorhood" is
> use.  These include:
> * none (e.g. just the list, as in the "list-after-def" suggestion)
> * the '@' character
> * a new keyword (with, using, decorate, etc.)

This is the biggy, it seems. Current (as of a couple of hours ago) 
discussions on python-dev are discussing other alternatives instead
of @, that will hopefully make it easier for IPython or Leo to cope 
for now (but note that in the future, some other use for @ might be
found, so anyone relying on it at the moment might want to think 
about that). One current suggestion is to use the | character, instead.

> 2) Location
> Proposals also differ on exactly where the decorator declaration
> should be made.  These include:
> * before def

Short of someone producing a _very_ strong argument in favour of
another form, this is almost certainly going to be the choice.

> * between def and function name

Breaks too many tools, as well as stupid humans who are used to seeing
def functionname.

> * between function name and argument list

I'm not sure that this was ever popular, with anyone ;)

> * between argument list and colon

Guido's ruled this out (see previous posts, I put a link to his post
outlining why.

> * after colon (first line in body)

A problem here is interaction with docstrings?


> 3) List notation
> As I understand it, it's already decided that any implementation of
> decorators must allow for a list of decorators to be applied.  So
> proposals that might be accepted must explain how this can be done.
> The options I've seen:
> * one per line (as currently)

There's some confusion as to how the one-per-line thing is ordered. I find
it quite obvious, but I've been playing with this for a week now, so it might
just be that I know the answer now. Simply - 

@decA
@decB
@decC
def func():

is equivalent to 

func = decA(decB(decC(func)))

> * commas only

Too much ambiguity in the parsing, I suspect.

> * current list syntax (or some similar variant)

> 4) Indentation
> Proposals also differ on whether or not decorators should introduce a
> new block.  What I've seen:
> * no block
> * block

Guido pointed out that this would lead to the default indentation level 
for a decorated method being 3 tab stops. I also don't like it visually - 
I tried reformatting test_decorators using it, and it looked... strange. 

> I thought the summary above might put some things into perspective so
> that when you're arguing for one syntax or another, you can argue
> separately for the points that matter most to you.  It might be that
> we mostly agree on, say, the need for a keyword, or the block
> indentation (though I'm certainly not holding my breath).  But I'd
> rather hear arguments for the different sections separately because,
> to some degree, they're pretty much orthogonal.

An excellent list! If you don't mind, I might steal this format for the PEP. 
It allows for a lot more alternatives to be covered off in a smaller space
(since many proposals are minor variations on an existing proposal, and
share the same problems).


From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Aug 11 13:36:50 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 19:36:50 +0200
Subject: 'break' Causes Execution of Procedure?
References: <cfdif9$hhm$1@news01.intel.com>
Message-ID: <cfdlfi$l2l$06$1@news.t-online.com>

Scott Brady Drummonds wrote:

> I have a bug in a script of several hundred lines of code that I cannot
> figure out.  I have attempted (unsuccessfully) to duplicate this problem
> in
> a smaller script that I can post here but have been unsuccessful.  As
> such, I'm posting code snippets here in the hopes that someone recognizes
> a very basic mistake I've made and can straighten me out.

Unfortunately you seem to have picked the wrong snippets, which by the way
look made-up. The only error I see

if key in skipList:
    ...

should probably be
    
if cycle in skipList:
    ....

The "most basic" error would be a print statement producing

> DEBUG: begin main procedure

sitting in a second place where it doesn't belong and isn't expected. 

> How is it possible that the call to 'break' is seemingly being replaced
> with a call to 'main'?

Other than with a buggy C-extension that is not possible.

Peter



From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Thu Aug 19 07:17:48 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:17:48 +0200
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1938.1092903657.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <20040814153534.8AC171E4007@bag.python.org>	<e69d3ed204081706284b20ea8d@mail.gmail.com>	<cft1h1$8ru$1@sea.gmane.org>	<mailman.1804.1092754567.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cftpkf$acj$1@panix1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1938.1092903657.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2ojgfuFbc193U2@uni-berlin.de>

Jack Diederich wrote:

> The country results ended up with Germans having little sense of humor
> (they thought everything was funny) to Canadians being the most picky.
> Most "American" comedians are from Canada (SCTV, SNL) so that at least
> jives with my personal experience.

Well, I'm not digging up that old quote, am I?

"""
We're Germans and we use Unix. That's a combination of two demographic
groups known to have no sense of humour whatsoever.
"""

(credits to Hanno Mueller)

Reinhold

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From news at NOwillmcguganSPAM.com  Thu Aug 26 12:01:20 2004
From: news at NOwillmcguganSPAM.com (Will McGugan)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:01:20 +0100
Subject: 3D geometry module?
Message-ID: <412e0951$0$6157$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>

Hi,

Is there a general purpose 3D geometry module for Python? I would like 
to be able to read / write 3D models and perform per vertex / per face 
operations on them.

Failing that, are there vector / matrix / quaternion classes I can make 
use of?

Thanks..

Will McGugan


From jess.austin at gmail.com  Sat Aug 28 08:49:05 2004
From: jess.austin at gmail.com (Jess Austin)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 05:49:05 -0700
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>
	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>
	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b8ad139e.0408261420.22d14998@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.2478.1093564289.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b8ad139e.0408271635.6b76e9b7@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.2550.1093655878.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b8ad139e.0408280449.594de950@posting.google.com>

Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.2550.1093655878.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> Jess Austin wrote:
> 
> > So you have:
> > 
> > def foo(x):
> >     __meta_variable__ = 42
> >     variable = 5
> >     return dir()
> > 
> > And you're volunteering to explain to a newbie, or even a nearly
> > intermediate programmer like myself, why the list that is returned
> > from this function contains 'x' and 'variable' but not
> > '__meta_variable__'?  
> 
> Sure.  Magic attributes defined at the top level of a function (e.g. 
> your __meta_variable__) aren't intended to be local variables.  You'll 
> see that as you start looking at more experienced programmer's code. 
> Therfore, they shouldn't be treated as local variables.  For example, 
> suppose we changed your function a little...
> 
>    def foo(x):
>       __author__ = 'Jess Austin'
>       __version__ = '1.0'
>       variable = 5
>       return dir()
> 
> See the difference?

I see that some of these variables have underscores and some don't. 
Why didn't you respond to my detailed explanation of how binding and
scoping work in Python?  Would it be worth my time to restate the
explanation in simpler terms?


> >>Others seem to want to specify a function's metadata outside of the 
> >>function def, which just doesn't seem pythonic (IMO).
> > 
> > 
> > If you really understood Python's scoping rules, you would know that
> > this opinion is the opposite of the truth.
> 
> A decorator is a kind of meta information.  So are docstrings.  The 
> proposals I've been seeing (A1 and J2 in particular) declare decorators 
> and docstrings outside of the function def (not inside of the function def).

I'll be more specific.  "Others seem to want to specify a function's
metadata outside of the function def": truth.  "which just doesn't
seem pythonic": opposite of truth.  "(IMO)": apparently truth. 
Pythonic is a word with a meaning (in this newsgroup anyway), and
modifying an object's namespace from outside _is_ pythonic: we've
always been able to do so (at least since mid-1999 when I started
using python) and we always will be able to do so.  Your proposed
arbitrary character-driven change to Python's conventional scoping
rules would _not_ be pythonic.  It may in fact be your opinion that
such a change would be pythonic, but I correctly classified that
opinion as the opposite of truth.

 
> > Of all the current
> > incarnations of function "metadata", only one may be set within the
> > function, and that one is not set using a standard binding statement:
> > 
> 
> True and True, provided that you believe that docstrings are the only 
> kind of function metadata.  I believe though that attributes like 
> __author__ and __version__ above are also function metadata.

Metadata is a programmer's convention, or perhaps in this case
religious belief.  I'm not certain what your precise convention is
since you haven't explained it.  You evidently expect all
"experienced" programmers to know it and respect it.  Apparently it
has something to do with underscore characters.  Python accomodates
this particular convention, but it will never enforce it on the rest
of us, and that is a GOOD THING.


> > In broader commentary, as I've said, pep318
> > isn't really about metadata.  One reason is that metadata isn't that
> > important.  
> 
> By this you mean "in your opinion", right?

Of course.  The interesting thing about my opinions is that I've
provided reasonable prima facie justification for them.  Thoughtful
interlocutors would respond to that justification.

yours,
Jess


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Sat Aug 28 11:22:41 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 08:22:41 -0700
Subject: wxTheClipboard problem, IDLE vs PythonWin
References: <bp-dnYrA8b_ttq3cRVn-hA@adelphia.com>
Message-ID: <1093707081.715504@news.commspeed.net>


"Tim Rice" <timrice at nospam-gmail.com> wrote in message news:bp-dnYrA8b_ttq3cRVn-hA at adelphia.com...
> I have a need to write data to the Windows clipboard from a Python script.
> I found a nice, simple solution @
> http://wiki.wxpython.org/index.cgi/ClipBoard.  The problem is, I can only
> get it to work from within the PythonWin and SPE IDE's.  I get errors if I
> try to run the exact same code from the command line or via IDLE's
> interactive shell.  I can't figure it out.  Any ideas?  Possibly something
> missing from my PYTHONPATH environment variable?

Idle is incompatible with wxPython, what I do when I work in Idle is just double click on the file to open it (don't use the run menu unless you have an error to look up). A programming tool I have found useful with wxPython is Leo (A literate programming tool) found at http://personalpages.tds.net/~edream/front.html


Tom
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From jjl at pobox.com  Thu Aug 26 15:40:23 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 20:40:23 +0100
Subject: Inline Conditionals?
References: <mailman.2307.1093385983.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<jt6dnb18R-cz6LDcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
	<1gj4rpq.1oyt89b14xvbdqN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <k6vleli0.fsf@pobox.com>

aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:
[...]
> Of course, absit iniuria verbis, one cannot make anything foolproof,
> because fools are SO ingenious -- I've also seen lots of code like:
> 
>     if x < 0:
>         return True
>     else:
>         return False
> 
> which is, si licet es, even _worse_ than the wished-for ternary use!-)
[...]

Argh.

I looked at that, and had a sinking feeling.  I just found about ten
instances of that in my code!

Strange that, though I was innoculated against the general case of
this disease in the some years ago, I was apparently still entirely
susceptible to this particular strain of it.


John


From rtw at freenet.co.uk  Mon Aug 30 11:46:54 2004
From: rtw at freenet.co.uk (Rob Williscroft)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 15:46:54 GMT
Subject: why does this fail on python 2.2?
References: <mailman.2611.1093878644.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Xns9555AA8D5E613ukcoREMOVEfreenetrtw@130.133.1.4>

John Hunter wrote in news:mailman.2611.1093878644.5135.python-
list at python.org in comp.lang.python:

> class Results(object):
>     __slots__ = ( "__doinit" )
>     def __new__(cls):


> AttributeError: 'Results' object has no attribute '_Results__doinit'
> 

Its in the Traceback:

    __slots__ = [ '_Results__doinit' ]

Rob.
-- 
http://www.victim-prime.dsl.pipex.com/


From peter at engcorp.com  Sat Aug 21 00:02:50 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:02:50 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <fFzVc.56995$TI1.52506@attbi_s52>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<fFzVc.56995$TI1.52506@attbi_s52>
Message-ID: <ibednRLmoMpsVbvcRVn-oA@powergate.ca>

Bryan wrote:

> i'm 37... started programing on a TRS-80 Model I and III.  i also did a 
> bit a programming on a VIC-20... brownie points for anyone who can 
> remember how many text characters there was in one row... 

23!  ... freakin' weird little machine that was... :-)

> believe it or not, i can remember this :) 
 > eventhough i'm not OLD like some of those on
> this list, i did get to program BASIC with punch cards in my 8th grade 
> math class.

-Peter


From rajarshi at presidency.com  Thu Aug 19 11:27:24 2004
From: rajarshi at presidency.com (Rajarshi Guha)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:27:24 -0400
Subject: HTMLParser question
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.19.15.27.23.527235@presidency.com>

Hi,
  I have some HTML that looks essentially consists of a series of <div>'s
and each <div> having one of two classes (tnt-question or tnt-answer).
I'm using HTMLParser to handle the tags as:

class MyHTMLParser(HTMLParser.HTMLParser):

    def handle_starttag(self, tag, attrs):
        if len(attrs) == 1:
            cls,whichcls = attrs[0]
            if whichcls == 'tnt-question':
                print self.get_starttag_text(), self.getpos()
    def handle_endtag(self, tag):
        pass
    def handle_data(self, data):
        print data

if __name__ == '__main__':

    htmldata = string.join(open('tt.html','r').readlines())
    parser = MyHTMLParser()
    parser.feed( htmldata )

However what I would like is that when the parser reaches some HTML like
this:

        <div class="tnt-question">
            How do I add a user to a MySQL system?
        </div>

I should get back the data between the open and close tags. However the
above code prints the text contained between all tags, not just the <div>
tags with the class='tnt-question'.

Is there a way to call handle_data() when a specific tag is being handled?
Placing a call to handle_data() in handle_starttag seems to be the way -
but I';m not sure how to actually do it - what data should I pass to the
call?

Any pointers would be appreciated
Thanks,
Rajarshi




From holbertr at dma.org  Thu Aug 26 08:21:38 2004
From: holbertr at dma.org (Rick Holbert)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:21:38 -0400
Subject: Converting hex string to an integer
References: <412d9e18$0$22821$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <cgkkki$774$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>

Derek Fountain wrote:

> Given the character string "0x00A1B2C3" arriving at sys.argv[1] how do I
> convert that to an integer which I can do some math on?

i = eval(sys.argv[1])



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 12:24:09 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 02:24:09 +1000
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <2-SdnZCwNs1SwI_cRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>	<opsb9g3hjudgjose@mail.yahoo.it>
	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2-SdnZCwNs1SwI_cRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040805092418466354@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 12:18:22 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> Actually, I think many people *are* trying it out right now...
> by reading the posts in this forum.

Browsing a few examples in isolation is hardly the same thing as trying it out 
with real live coding. 

I did this, and found my initial "oh yuck" reaction ended up being "actually,
this isn't too bad".


From Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU  Wed Aug 25 00:37:59 2004
From: Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU (Michael J. Fromberger)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:37:59 -0400
Subject: Has anyone implemented BASIC in Python?
References: <2oo13eFcj548U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<o6eii0h19pljd16shbfld7jdj7l2m7tc9m@4ax.com>
	<2ot30hFeek8nU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<9h0ji0lvc0be65nuvcugaa3vsq5mcl3ck8@4ax.com>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-900D4F.11105323082004@localhost>
	<285ni0hmusfgqslj9gnhhimvanr2jh0be3@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <Michael.J.Fromberger-74CABF.00375925082004@localhost>

In article <285ni0hmusfgqslj9gnhhimvanr2jh0be3 at 4ax.com>,
 Andrea Griffini <agriff at tin.it> wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:10:53 -0400, "Michael J. Fromberger"
> <Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU> wrote:
> 
> >when you are dealing with a more complex general-purpose language, and 
> >one whose grammar needs to evolve over time, then I think a 
> >parser-generator is a much better solution by far.
> 
> Like I said before may be it's me... but I see the grammar definition 
> and the sparse collection of C code snippets required to use yacc & 
> friends harder to understand than a recursive descending parser.

Admittedly, YACC and Bison have a somewhat steep initial learning curve.  
However, in terms of long-term maintainability, that learning curve is 
well worth the trouble for non-trivial language projects.  By combining 
the context-free grammar with associated semantic information (the 
so-called "sparse collection of C code snippets" you mention above), and 
allowing the tool to generate your parser code, you are much more likely 
to get a parser you can actually argue is correct.

Correct code may not be fashionable, but it is certainly much more 
maintainable than incorrect code, or code whose correctness cannot 
easily be determined.  The usual response:  "It's worked fine so far!" 
does not cut much ice when you're writing something important, as I am 
sure you know!

> for me, shift-reduce parser are beyond the ROI point.

Ah, well.  Suit yourself.  :)  In my opinion, that's equivalent to a 
builder saying, "Power tools do not have good return-on-investment over 
doing all our cutting, fitting, and joining using hand tools."  But, 
perhaps if you only ever need to work with simple grammars, that might 
be true for your own needs.

> >The chief trouble in maintaining a hand-written recursive descent parser 
> >is that the grammar for the input language is hidden inside the 
> >implementation.
> 
> Normally the grammar is documented ALSO elsewhere in a very
> human readable form.

Of course -- but how do you know your human-readable documentation has 
any necessary correlation with the actions of the parser?  With a hand 
coded parser, you basically have nothing but the author's hopeful 
assurance.  Automatically generated parsers are generated directly from 
an EBNF analogue of the grammar (e.g., YACC input), which means you can 
be sure the parser matches the grammar, unless there's a bug in the 
parser generator, and the latter is S.E.P.

And, heck, if you don't like bottom-up shift-reduce parsers of the LR(k) 
family, there are even parser-generators that generate top-down 
predictive parsers of various stripes (e.g., ANTLR), that are reputed to 
work well for many common tasks.

> >Also, error-handling is tricky in recursive descent, because 
> >much of the parser's state is implicit in stack frames that must be 
> >correctly unwound when an error forces you to bail out.  
> 
> Here is an excerpt of a parser I wrote about a dozen years ago
> in C. [...]
> 
>       case -RW_IF :
> 	  SkipToken();
> 	  c=ParseExpr();
> 	  if (!ParseError && NextIs(-RW_THEN))
> 	    { t=ParseStat();
> 	      if (!ParseError)
> 		{ if (CurToken==-RW_ELSE)
> 		    { SkipToken(); e=ParseStat(); }
> 		  else
> 		    e=NULL;
> 		  r=NewIf(c,t,e);
> 		}
> 	      else
> 		{ Deref(t); Deref(c); }
> 	    }
> 	  else
> 	    Deref(c);
> 	  break;
> 
> This is the case for parsing IF-THEN-ELSE statement.

If you'll forgive me for being a bit harsh, I find this code practically 
unreadable.  You've got at least three layers of nested error-handling 
here, just to make sure your dereferences all happen in the correct 
order.  Having to explicitly check error codes like this, and manually 
handle memory, is PRECISELY the reason why I argued that error-handling 
is tricky in recursive descent.  If you handed me this code and asked me 
to find a problem in it, I'd probably tear all my hair out.

Does that mean you shouldn't use recursive descent?  Of course not!  The 
technique is clever, and has its place.  But this example could have 
been so much nicer, even just using a table-driven top-down predictive 
parser, rather than an explicitly recursive one.

> Of course this is just my personal view, based on the experience
> I had on the few languages I implemented. For example I never
> dared to write a parser for C++

Yeah.  Well, C++ is pretty awful to parse, no matter WHAT type of 
algorithm you want to use.  I won't dispute that at all. :)

> PS: Ok ok ok... I'll give shift-reduce parser and their tools
>     another look. May be it's just my laziness that is showing up and 
>     my brain that tries to find excuses for justifying it.

I think that, in the long run, you will probably find your efforts well 
rewarded.  I didn't intend to become the advocate for automatic parser 
generators, but I do think that someone just starting out should be 
aware that recursive descent is not always the best solution.

-M

-- 
Michael J. Fromberger             | Lecturer, Dept. of Computer Science
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~sting/  | Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA


From sholden at holdenweb.com  Tue Aug 31 07:26:45 2004
From: sholden at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 07:26:45 -0400
Subject: Live conversation between Python and an Excel spreadsheet
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2617.1093884964.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2617.1093884964.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <41346075.5040305@holdenweb.com>

quadric at primenet.com wrote:

> Hi,
> I have an application that requires that Python initiate and mediate a 
> live and iterative conversation
> between an external application (in which Python is embedded) and an 
> external Excel
> spreadsheet.  Python will have to pass info to the spreadsheet, 
> spreadsheet will make
> calculations, Python will obtain results and pass back to application,  
> application will evaluate
> results of spreadsheet calculations and create new set of data and 
> instructions, Python will pass
> new data and instructions to spreadsheet,  loop goes on 'n' times until 
> convergence to solution
> or no solution.  Python terminates conversation and returns control to 
> application until next
> 'conversation'.
> 
> If I had my choice (which I don't) I would re-code the spreadsheet in 
> Python, but that is not an
> option in this case.
> 
> Is there anyone on the list that has done this before and has an elegant 
> solution?  If so, what Python modules should I look at?  Are there any 
> good Python books out there that have
> examples of this?
> 
> I am experienced with Python and have some knowledge of COM objects etc....
> 
> Any help would be very much appreciated.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
Your best bet would be to interact with Excel as a COM object, as 
described in the excellent "Python Programming on Win32" by Robinson and 
Hammond. However, be aware that you'll probably end up ferreting around 
to find out about undocumented methods of Excel objects, as the docs are 
often far from complete.

regards
  Steve


From michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk  Thu Aug 26 12:21:44 2004
From: michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk (Michael Sparks)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:21:44 +0100
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<412cf775$0$11496$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net>
Message-ID: <cgl37h$6ss$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>

> Robert Brewer wrote:
> ...
>> The patch is nearly complete;
> 
> Patch against current CVS passes all the tests* and has been uploaded
> to SourceForge. I'm currently looking at how __future__ declarations
> work.

Patch against current CVS including __future__ statements/declarations
has now been created, tested and uploaded to SourceForge. All tests
pass.

For those interested this means the full patch now allows:

----------------------
from __future__ import decorators

def memoise(f):
   "dummy memoisation function"
   return f

class Foo:
   using:
      staticmethod
      memoise
   def Hoo(Who, *args):
      print "Yoo", Who

Foo.Hoo("HOO")
----------------------

For the __future__ work I followed the approach taken by
generators/yield in 2.2 . Using decorators without an explicit
import from __future__ results in a failure.

On a slightly different topic, when I was looking at how __future__
statments work, I must admit when I saw the following, it made me
smile:

> python
Python 2.3.3 (#1, Apr  6 2004, 01:47:39)
[GCC 3.3.3 (SuSE Linux)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> from __future__ import braces
  File "<stdin>", line 1
SyntaxError: not a chance
>>>

Digging around the python source I must admit has been a pleasurable
experience (especially when finding nuggets like this! :). Whether or
not syntax J2 gets accepted or not, this has been fun - my compliments
to the python-dev team :)

Regards,


Michael.
-- 
Michael.Sparks at rd.bbc.co.uk    
British Broadcasting Corporation, Research and Development
Kingswood Warren, Surrey KT20 6NP

This message (and any attachments) may contain personal views
which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.



From grv575 at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 10 00:27:00 2004
From: grv575 at hotmail.com (grv575)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 21:27:00 -0700
Subject: compiling with msvc7
References: <875af5e2.0408071735.4c1fdf89@posting.google.com>
	<4115da69$0$161$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
Message-ID: <144d0df.0408092027.4f93f29a@posting.google.com>

"Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote in message news:<4115da69$0$161$9b622d9e at news.freenet.de>...
> ?ke wrote:
> > I am trying to comile C code to python with weaver, using Microsoft
> > Visual Studio .NET (which I think uses VS 7.0)  but I get an error
> > that Python is compiled with VS 6 and so doesn't work.
> > 
> > Anyone knows a workaround for this ?
> 
> Recompile Python, or buy VC6.
> 
> Regards,
> Martin

garlic


From jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl  Sat Aug  7 10:24:40 2004
From: jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl (Jarek Zgoda)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 14:24:40 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Questions about parsing XML
References: <%T4Rc.150$Iv.46@trndny03> <cf2mn0$gqn$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>
	<Fn5Rc.209$Kv2.21@trndny09>
Message-ID: <cf2on8$mco$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>

Kyle Root <kyleroot at gmail.com> pisze:

>> libxml2 (http://www.xmlsoft.org/) has excellent support for XPath, F.
>> Lundh's ElementTree also supports some XPath expressions, although it is
>> built on expat and needs to parse whole XML document.
> 
> Well I was going to use that, but I remember reading somewhere that 
> xmlib was depreciated or something, even if it has been do you still 
> recommend libxml2 over expat?

Python's xmllib (regular expression based parser) is not the same
software as libxml2 (GNOME XML library) ;).

If you need full support for XPath, XPointer, XInclude or namespaces
(see http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2004/06/30/py-xml.html) I recommend using
libxml2. Some people say that some of its parsers are also faster than
original J. Clark's expat (although not as easy to use as expat or
expat-like SAX parser from libxml2).

-- 
Jarek Zgoda
http://jpa.berlios.de/


From crgre.znnf at hgvybt.qr  Thu Aug 26 15:07:24 2004
From: crgre.znnf at hgvybt.qr (Peter Maas)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 21:07:24 +0200
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
In-Reply-To: <KGpXc.2846$MR2.15519@news1.mts.net>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<412e0b7b.7894449@news.ecn.ab.ca>
	<KGpXc.2846$MR2.15519@news1.mts.net>
Message-ID: <2p6qomFi04b8U1@uni-berlin.de>

Most of you are crossposting this thread to 5 newsgroups. Are you aware of this
fact or are you just hitting reply?

-- 
Peter Maas, Aachen, Germany, Tel +49-241-38200 e-mail crgre.znnf at hgvybt.qr


From roy at panix.com  Thu Aug 12 10:32:19 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 10:32:19 -0400
Subject: [OT] Keyboard layout, was Re: PEP318
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<20040812090056.00001e31@titan> <cffdba$ko0$04$1@news.t-online.com>
	<Y+l*oRTrq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Message-ID: <roy-439B02.10321912082004@reader1.panix.com>

Sion Arrowsmith <siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> As someone who's just started using a Mac for the first time(*),
> I'd like to add that it's not always plain-sailing on an English
> keyboard.

What's wrong with Mac keyboards?  I've used a number of Mac keyboards 
over the past 15 or so years, and have found the variety of layouts to 
be no better or worse (or more or less standardized) than any other 
keyboards in general.  I'm currently using a 12" PowerBook and other 
than finding the control key to be uncomfortably close to the space bar, 
I find it perfectly reasonable for programming and emacs-ing.

> And I have a great
> aversion to remapping keyboards so that they generate characters
> other than those on the keycaps.)

Yes, that's evil.  I was just in the UK a couple of weeks ago and was 
using a semi-UK keyboard.  As far as I could tell, the keycaps were 
labeled with the UK layout, but the codes they generated were US style.  
I touch-type, so as long as I ignored what was printed on the keycaps 
and just typed normally, everything was fine.  But it's amazingly 
difficult to ignore the printed keycaps.


From roy at panix.com  Sun Aug  1 13:17:05 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 13:17:05 -0400
Subject: Strange timing data for list.pop()
Message-ID: <roy-57B296.13170501082004@reader1.panix.com>

In the recent "transforming a list into a string" thread, we've been 
discussing the fact that list.pop() is O(1), but list.pop(0) is O(n).  I 
decided to do a little timing experiment.  To be sure, I did verify 
experimentally the expected result, but along the way, I came upon an 
interesting artifact that I'm at a loss to explain.

I used the following to generate some timing numbers for pop() on 
various sized lists:

import time
for power in range (20):
    i = 2 ** power
    list = [1] * i
    t0 = time.time ()
    list.pop ()
    t1 = time.time ()
    t = t1 - t0
    print i, t

I know wall clock time isn't a good way to time things, but it was a 
first cut before I dove into the manual and found os.times().  The 
interesting thing is the data that I got with the above code:

1 7.70092010498e-05
2 6.91413879395e-06
4 5.96046447754e-06
8 5.00679016113e-06
16 5.00679016113e-06
32 5.00679016113e-06
64 5.00679016113e-06
128 5.00679016113e-06
256 4.05311584473e-06
512 5.00679016113e-06
1024 5.00679016113e-06
2048 5.96046447754e-06
4096 9.05990600586e-06
8192 9.05990600586e-06
16384 9.05990600586e-06
32768 1.4066696167e-05
65536 2.31266021729e-05
131072 3.09944152832e-05
262144 3.60012054443e-05
524288 3.38554382324e-05

I plotted the data.  http://www.panix.com/~roy/pop-times.png

An interesting shaped curve!  I haven't done any curve fitting, but by 
eye it looks something like k - log (1/n).  The data is quite 
repeatable, too.  Admitting that clock time is a silly thing to be 
measuring here, anybody have any clue what might be causing this 
behavior?

This is on an otherwise idle 768 Mbyte PowerBook running OSX-10.3.4 and 
Python 2.3.4.


From tim.peters at gmail.com  Wed Aug  4 17:38:45 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 17:38:45 -0400
Subject: Timing Difference: insert vs. append & reverse
In-Reply-To: <1a517b5.0408041305.3927a6c8@posting.google.com>
References: <35b736b9.0408020330.53b24ed3@posting.google.com>
	<Xns953983065EEC6duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
	<1a517b5.0408031027.60554dfb@posting.google.com>
	<Xns953B4F5373D3Bduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
	<1a517b5.0408041305.3927a6c8@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1f7befae04080414386ded0eef@mail.gmail.com>

[Bryan Olson]
> Hmmm ... let me clarify what I'm selling:  We can make lists
> perform efficiently as double-ended queues without breaking
> anything or perceptibly hurting anyone's efficiency.  Until this
> thread, I hadn't realized that Python's lists are much slower
> than Perl's in important cases:
>
>  http://perlmonks.thepen.com/17890.html
> 
> Would this be a PEP-size change, or just a small fix?

"Futile" is closer -- it's been debated to death repeatedly.  Python
2.4 adds a deque type instead, with O(1) insert/remove at both ends,
regardless of access pattern.  That's O(1) per operation (not just
amortized O(1) -- the deque type never needs to move entries).


From wojciech_mula at poczta.null.onet.pl.invalid  Tue Aug 31 17:47:54 2004
From: wojciech_mula at poczta.null.onet.pl.invalid (Wojciech Mula)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:47:54 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Beeping the console
References: <mailman.2697.1093987896.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrncj9sb5.17c.wojciech_mula@localhost.localdomain>

Jeffrey Barish wrote:
> What is the easiest way to beep the console from a Python program (i.e.,
> to do the same thing as echo -e \a)?

import os
import sys

os.write(sys.stdout.fileno(), '\007')

w.


From markie at osafoundation.org  Wed Aug 18 23:12:02 2004
From: markie at osafoundation.org (Mark Jaffe)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:12:02 -0700
Subject: distutils help
Message-ID: <markie-92F802.20120218082004@comcast.dca.giganews.com>

I am customizing a setup script and need to pass in some additional 
parameters specifying includes and libs. The build_ext lists some user 
variables such as "include-dirs" and "library-dirs" but I am unclear on 
how to access these within the setup.py. Are there any distutils gurus 
here?

Mark Jaffe
Chandler Build/Release Engineer
OSAF


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 00:44:32 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 00:44:32 -0400
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
In-Reply-To: <30260531.0408131853.18ec2446@posting.google.com>
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1637.1092428855.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<30260531.0408131853.18ec2446@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <LIqdnd7Jz9Mspr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>

simo wrote:

> I'm a Perl programmer at heart - well that and PHP, plus the odd
> dabbling in C/C++/C# etc.
> 
> Anyway, the thought of indentation instead of curly braces really put
> me off to start with, 

Ah, good.  Someone who was really there, instead of hearsay.

Please, *why* did it put you off?

Didn't you already indent your code consistently?

Didn't you think that the removal of those braces would immediately
make the code more readable (fewer lines, fewer extra cruft to
distract the eye) and easier to type?

I'm curious why more people don't have "neat!" as their very
first thought on encountering this, rather than "yuck!".

-Peter


From ben at benlast.com  Mon Aug 16 08:40:53 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:40:53 +0100
Subject: sys.stdin.read() replacement
In-Reply-To: <cfq822$h9j$1@online.de>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPGENCCDAA.ben@benlast.com>

Re-reading the original question, I think that Benjamin's right (as all
people called Ben tend to be, except me); the original poster was after a
method of editing previous lines, and readline won't do that; it does single
lines only.  A curses-based console app would allow the editing of previous
lines, but that's a whole order-of-magnitude shift in complexity (and I
don't know of any curses modules for Windows).

As a workaround - if the user is required to type in each line preceded by a
number, then it'd be possible to just take the last version of a line.   But
that may not be possible.

So; Unix solution - create a temporary filename (with os.tempnam() for
example), spawn off an editor to edit it, and parse the resulting edited
file when the edit session completes, like the Unix vipw command does.

Windows equivalent - invoke notepad.exe as the editor.

ben

> -----Original Message-----
> From: python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org
> [mailto:python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org]On Behalf Of
> Benjamin Niemann
> Sent: 16 August 2004 13:10
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Re: sys.stdin.read() replacement
>
>
> not sure, if importing readline really gets the desired result (if I
> understand the initial question correctly)
>
> suppose the following input:
>    > this is ym first line
>    > and another line
>    (oops there's a typo in the first line, user hits cursor up two
> times, and corrects it)
>    > this is my first line
>    ...
>
> what the program will then reads is:
>    "this is ym first line"
>    "and another line"
>    "this is my first line"
>    ...
> with no chance to see that the third line is supposed to replace line one.
> Or is readline actually more powerful than I remember?
>
>
> > import readline will work on Windows:
> > a) if you're running the cygwin python, inside cygwin
> > b) if you've installed a readline module; there are at least
> two available.
> > Excuse me for the self-referential answer, but about half and
> hour before I
> > read this, I wrote a blog entry all about readline modules,
> with links to
> > and comments about the Windows ones.  The permalink is
> > http://www.livejournal.com/users/benlast/16766.html or it's the
> most recent
> > entry at http://www.livejournal.com/users/benlast/
> >
> > Karin: if you do import a readline, you can then use
> sys.stdin.readline() to
> > read a line of input, and you should get some sort of history
> functionality
> > (up-arrow, for example, will recall a previous line).
> >
> > regards
> > b
> >
> >
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org
> >>[mailto:python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org]On Behalf Of
> >>P at draigBrady.com
> >>Sent: 16 August 2004 11:52
> >>To: python-list at python.org
> >>Subject: Re: sys.stdin.read() replacement
> >>
> >>
> >>Karin Lagesen wrote:
> >>
> >>>I am writing a small write-logfile script for use on the
> >>
> >>terminal. I have here
> >>
> >>>a section where the user should be able to type in several
> >>
> >>lines. I have solved
> >>
> >>>it so far by using sys.stdin.read(), which makes it possible to
> >>
> >>type in several
> >>
> >>>lines (separated by enter) and then terminate the session by
> >>
> >>typing ^D. This is
> >>
> >>>all very good. However, with this it is only possible to edit
> >>
> >>the line you are
> >>
> >>>in. If you spot an error further up in your text, you cannot
> >>
> >>get at it. Do any
> >>
> >>>of you know of a way I can do this?
> >>
> >>
> >>import readline
> >>
> >>(I don't know if it works on windos)
> >>
> >>P?draig.
> >>--
> >>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> >
> >
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Aug 27 19:41:42 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 19:41:42 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <20040819231139.D039A1E4003@bag.python.org>
	<5cf809e9.0408241126.6e3fdd5b@posting.google.com>
	<8ecda57b.0408251754.14ed27b9@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.2398.1093493689.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgogrm$99f$1@panix1.panix.com>

In article <mailman.2398.1093493689.5135.python-list at python.org>,
Jonathan Daugherty  <cygnus at cprogrammer.org> wrote:
>
>Is it just me or are these posts getting off-topic? :)

Assuming that I agreed with you, what would you want done?
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From cjankowski at hbr-inc.com  Wed Aug 11 10:53:59 2004
From: cjankowski at hbr-inc.com (Chris Jankowski)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 07:53:59 -0700
Subject: Pilprint
Message-ID: <a1301a8e.0408110653.77579585@posting.google.com>

I am a newbie to the world of Python and trying to print some
images(.tif).  I have installed the PIL Library and can use the some
of the fuctions like: m.format, im.size, im.mode without any problem. 
When I try to use the Tools like pilprint and pilfile, I can't seem to
get them to work.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Examples:
>>> pilfile *.tif
Traceback (  File "<interactive input>", line 1
    pilfile *.tif

>>> pilprint 'c:/chris.TIF'
Traceback (  File "<interactive input>", line 1
    pilprint 'c:/chris.TIF'
                          ^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax

Thanks,

Chris J.


From cbrown at metservice.com  Tue Aug  3 23:48:35 2004
From: cbrown at metservice.com (Colin Brown)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 15:48:35 +1200
Subject: Module for converting XML to Python object(s)?
References: <otdPc.224$df.27@bignews5.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <41105a9c$1@news.iconz.co.nz>


"Robert Oschler" <no_replies at fake_email_address.invalid> wrote in message
news:otdPc.224$df.27 at bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> Has anybody seen a Python module that will take an XML document (not a
> colossal one), and convert it to a Python nested class object?

Also pyRXP  ref: http://www.reportlab.org/pyrxp.html

Colin Brown
PyNZ




From robin at reportlab.com  Wed Aug 25 12:58:17 2004
From: robin at reportlab.com (Robin Becker)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:58:17 +0100
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <412cc31c$1@news.012.net.il>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com> <412cc31c$1@news.012.net.il>
Message-ID: <412CC529.9060700@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>

Avner Ben wrote:

> I believe putting the decorator list before the function header is 
> generally a bad design decision. While it may make parsing-related 
> sense, it violates Python's greatest asset: being executable pseudocode. 
> The way I see it, the latter quality means being able to look at the 
> code and see clearly and immediately what requirements from the real 
> world the code was written the serve. Functions and methods are major 
.....

except that these wrappers/transformers/decorators are able to do what they like 
to the code including turning methods into properties, changing the argument 
list etc etc etc.

All the pain of self modifying code will be available :) as it already is, but 
with a new funky syntax to make it seem OK.

I also don't like the def coming last, but if the thing isn't what you think it 
is the "here be dragons" is probably a good idea.
-- 
Robin Becker


From brianc at temple.edu  Thu Aug 12 16:54:53 2004
From: brianc at temple.edu (brianc at temple.edu)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:54:53 -0400
Subject: drop into the interpreter
Message-ID: <2071f955.6ee078e1.8678300@po-d.temple.edu>

Trick I use is to throw something into the point you want it
to stop at that will raise an exception. Then run the script
with the -i option. So "python -i script.py". Upon raising the
exception it will return you an interpretter prompt. 

There's also a very good thread on Guido's blog about how to
design main() functions so they're easily usable from the
interpretter. 
http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=4829

-Brian

---- Original message ----
>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:11:15 +0200
>From: "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de>  
>Subject: Re: drop into the interpreter  
>To: python-list at python.org
>
>Hoang Do wrote:
>> is there a facility to inspect the run-time of a python script?
>> Essentially, it would execute a script to a set specific
point and then drop
>> into the interpreter.  Something like a "Stop" or "Break"?
>
>Not exactly that, but code.InteractiveConsole comes *very* close.
>
>Regards,
>Martin
>-- 
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From sharidas at zeomega.com  Thu Aug 19 06:01:33 2004
From: sharidas at zeomega.com (Satchidanand Haridas)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:31:33 +0530
Subject: inverse of izip
In-Reply-To: <loom.20040819T100054-648@post.gmane.org>
References: <d11dcfba.0408182144.14aad4a8@posting.google.com>	<loom.20040819T092507-31@post.gmane.org>	<41245B48.3020000@zeomega.com>
	<loom.20040819T100054-648@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <41247A7D.1040301@zeomega.com>

Steven Bethard wrote:

>Satchidanand Haridas <sharidas <at> zeomega.com> writes:
>  
>
>>How about using iter() to get another solution like the following:
>>
>> >>> starzip2 = lambda it: tuple([iter(x) for x in itertools.izip(*it)])
>>
>> >>> l,m = starzip2(itertools.izip(range(10),range(10)))
>>
>> >>> l
>><tupleiterator object at 0x4016802c>
>> >>> m
>><tupleiterator object at 0x4016896c>
>>
>> >>> list(l)
>>[0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9]
>> >>> list(m)
>>[0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9]
>>    
>>
>
>
>Unfortunately, I think this exhausts the iterators too early because it 
>applies * to the iterator:
>
>  
>
Could you expand on what you mean by exhaust the iterators too early?

The reason I ask is that the * operator is applied to 
((1,1),(2,2),....(9,9)). The operation of the 
itertools.izip(range10(),range10()) is completed before the * operation 
is applied. And the iter() simply converts the result of the inverse 
izip operation into an iterator.  I hope the above was not too 
confusing. :-)

I am trying to understand a little about the izip myself. Thanks.

Satchit


>>>>def range10():
>>>>        
>>>>
>...     for i in range(10):
>...             yield i
>...     print "exhausted"
>...
>  
>
>>>>l,m = starzip2(itertools.izip(range10(),range10()))
>>>>        
>>>>
>exhausted
>
>I believe we only get one "exhausted" because as soon as one iterator is used 
>up with izip, the next iterator is discarded.  But we are hitting "exhausted" 
>before we ever ask for an element from the starzip2 iterators, so it looks to 
>me like all the pairs from the first iterator are read into memory before the 
>second iterators are ever accessed...
>
>Steve
>  
>

Could you expand on what you mean by exhaust the iterators too early?

The reason I ask is that the * operator is applied to the tuple 
((1,1),(2,2),...(9,9)). Actually to the iterator which is called 10 
times, each time returning (i,i) for 0<=0<10. When the iterator is 
called the 11th time, it prints "exhausted".

So the operation of the itertools.izip(range10(),range10()) is completed 
and "exhausted" is printed before the * operation is applied. The iter() 
simply converts the result of the inverse izip operation which into an 
iterator.  I hope the above was not too confusing. :-)

I am trying to understand what goes on inside izip myself. Thanks.

Regards,
Satchit






From news at woody.datatailors.com  Tue Aug 10 07:39:18 2004
From: news at woody.datatailors.com (Peter van Kampen)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:39:18 +0200
Subject: Apache web server and CGI
References: <81a41dd.0408090447.7f27a092@posting.google.com>
	<10hf2ugjngver5e@corp.supernews.com>
	<81a41dd.0408092306.264beed@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <slrnchhcv5.mtn.news@woody.datatailors.com>

In article <81a41dd.0408092306.264beed at posting.google.com>, Lad wrote:
> [Tue Aug 10 08:51:32 2004] [error] [client 127.0.0.1] (2)No such file
> or directory: script not found or unable to stat: c:/program
> files/apache group/apache/cgi-bintest.py
> 
> The name of script is test.py and is in cgi-bin (Apache subdirectory).

In my experience cgi-bin is rarely just a subdir of apache's www-root. The
name cgi-bin is in itself not some magical name that 'turns CGI on'. You
have to configure it on your httpd.conf. Here's a relevant bit of mine:

#
# ScriptAlias: This controls which directories contain server scripts.
# ScriptAliases are essentially the same as Aliases, except that
# documents in the realname directory are treated as applications and
# run by the server when requested rather than as documents sent to the client.
# The same rules about trailing "/" apply to ScriptAlias directives as to
# Alias.
#
ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/ /usr/lib/cgi-bin/

#
# "/usr/lib/cgi-bin" could be changed to whatever your ScriptAliased
# CGI directory exists, if you have that configured.
#
<Directory /usr/lib/cgi-bin/>
    AllowOverride None
    Options ExecCGI
    Order allow,deny
    Allow from all
</Directory>

Also just to be sure the first line of test.py should be sth like this on
windows:

#! c:\path\to\python.exe

> BTW, how can I set up a different directory for cgi scripts? For
> example I would like to have all my scripts in
> C:\Scripts\MyScripts

This is probably clear by now...

Hth,

PterK

-- 
Peter van Kampen
pterk -- at -- datatailors.com


From jjl at pobox.com  Thu Aug 19 14:16:22 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 19:16:22 +0100
Subject: ClientCookie
References: <6f402501.0408110018.1e4e5ca8@posting.google.com>
	<6f402501.0408120352.680496bc@posting.google.com>
	<87ekmcp13g.fsf@pobox.com>
	<6f402501.0408180457.70df82e3@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <87llgbt2mh.fsf@pobox.com>

fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord) writes:
> jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee) wrote in message news:<87ekmcp13g.fsf at pobox.com>...
[...]
> No - I was following hte docs - which just shows CookieJar IIRC :-)
> Now that I'm using LWPCookieJar everything is wonderful and works fine...
[...]

Whoops, sorry.  Where is this mistake in the docs?  I don't see it.


John


From grante at visi.com  Sat Aug 28 11:05:40 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 15:05:40 GMT
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<tyf3c28ps1t.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
	<1ry8k0d2az.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87acwgvy51.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<2pb36dFibuj3U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<41309d32$0$65611$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <41309f44$0$65611$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-28, Grant Edwards <grante at visi.com> wrote:

>> Why would you call (2,) syntax a hack?
>
> Because so many people at first think that parens construct
> tuples the way square-brackets and curly-brackets construct
> lists.

Um, that should have finished with "and curly-braces construct
dictionaries."

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Th' MIND is the Pizza
                                  at               Palace of th' SOUL
                               visi.com            


From sholden at holdenweb.com  Tue Aug 31 07:52:32 2004
From: sholden at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 07:52:32 -0400
Subject: Need help importing/installing reportlab module
In-Reply-To: <1556ldg3h91o2.dlg@news.individual.net>
References: <1ezngypknj8ju.dlg@news.individual.net>
	<4133EF58.4050709@holdenweb.com>
	<1556ldg3h91o2.dlg@news.individual.net>
Message-ID: <41346680.9070900@holdenweb.com>

Active8 wrote:

> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:24:08 -0400, Steve Holden wrote:
> 
[...how to install ReportLab's open source code...]
>>
>>I'd be rather concerned that you can't find "reportlab" in the archive. 
>>Basically all it contains is a "reportlab" package directory with the 
>>code in it.
> 
> That's what I see, just no .py or other files named reportlab.
> 
Aha. The magic word is "package". See below.

>>>If anyone can help me straighten this out, I'd really apppreciate
>>>it.
>>>
>>>TIA
>>
>>Well if this doesn't fix it, please let me know.
>>
> 
> when I unzip, I get
> 
> ..\ReportLab_1_19\reportlab-1_19
> 
Right, but this is because you chose to unzip INTO a directory you had 
created called ReportLab_1_19. If you look at the archive with WinZip or 
similar, you'll see that it essentially bundles everything into a 
reportlab-1_19 directory. That directory contains only two things: you 
identify them in your next bit. Not sure what the "..\" is doing in your 
path up there ...

> which contains manifest.txt and the reportlab dir where the actual
> python code is. I've tried putting both subdirs under d:\ and
> changed the reportlab.pth path accordingly. I've changed the .pth
> file from DOS to unix and back because I read somewhere that the
> line termination char musst be just so - and I'm not even sure I got
> that right, but there's a newline in there. I even tried it without
> a newline.
> 
Right. You are complicating things WAY beyond what they need to. 
Something I am prone to do myself, so I feel a certain sympathy.

Delete everything you've done so far and unpack the archive into the 
root directory on your D: drive. (or move what you have already, if you 
feel confident doing that and you haven't messed about with the contents 
of the package). This will create

D:\reportlab-1_19\MANIFEST.txt
D:\reportlab-1_19\reportlab\__init__.py

and a whole bunch of other stuff. What you are supposed to import is the 
  D:\reportlab-1_19\reportlab DIRECTORY: it's a package, as indicated by 
the presence of the __init__.py file.

So, having got this far, you now need to create a .pth file that Python 
will find (the easiest way to ensure that is to create it in the same 
directory as your python.exe interpreter binary). It doesn't matter what 
it's called, as long as its name ends in ".pth". It needs to contain 
just one line, which reads

D:\reportlab-1_19

This will indicate to the interpreter that it can look in that directory 
for the reportlab package, and bingo, you are done.

Note that if you install multiple packages you can add a line to the 
same .pth file for each of the packages you want Python to find, but 
that needn't concern you just now.

> I've tried forward and backslashes. Also tried running
> test_pdfgen_general.py from the command line and the python
> interpreter - can't type "d:\report* because python doesn't like
> colons - ..\report* - it doesn't like dots, either. But when I run
> it from the windows command line, it says that in 
> 
> line 12 of test_pdfgen_general.py
> 
> from reportlab.test import unittest
> Import Error: no module named reportlab.test
> 
If you can't import reportlab, what makes you think you'll be able to 
import one of its sub-packages? :^)

> But I checked that test\ dir and unittest.py is there. If that's a
> clue, I don't know what to make of it.
> 
> I recall installing another module - maybe PIL. When I tried that
> from x import y thing, I got an error, but the next instruction was
> to just type import PIL or whatever, and that didn't throw any
> errors.
> 
> I'm pretty confused that it worked so well for you and isn't for me.
> The instructions can't be simpler.
> 
Basically you are just being confused by the extra directory level 
you've added, plus lack of knowledge about packages, which will be a bit 
confusing until you've seen one in action.

I don't think it helps that packages aren't well-described in the 
mainstream documentation, and I would encourage you to read the 
description in the tutorial [Section 6.4 in my 2.3 documentation]. It 
also doesn't really help that type(reportlab) is reported as <type 
'module'>, adding to the potential for confusion, but once you have used 
packages for a while it seems like a very natural way to bundle related 
pieces of functionality.

Get back to the group again if you still can't import reportlab - it's 
really worth the effort, honest! I use the o-s toolkit to do all my 
invoicing.

regards
  Steve


From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Mon Aug 23 19:57:19 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:57:19 -0700
Subject: function taking scalar or list argument
In-Reply-To: <9ZCdnT9EuudK3bfcRVn-tA@comcast.com>
References: <412a2bce$1_1@127.0.0.1> <9ZCdnT9EuudK3bfcRVn-tA@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <10il11q5uqfg4ad@corp.supernews.com>

Larry Bates wrote:

>You may want to take a look at isinstance() function.
>
>def twice(x):
>    if isinstance(x, list): return map(twice, x)
>    if isinstance(x, (int, float, str)): return 2*x
>    return None
>  
>

Actually, I'd favor the try/except approach.  It's entirely reasonable 
to think that, if this function might be passed either scalars or lists, 
it may also be passed a non-list-based sequence object.  If you simply 
try using map(), then it'll work correctly for any object that follows 
the expected protocol, regardless of whether that object is (a subclass 
of) list.  By explicitly demanding a list, you're needlessly limiting 
the usefulness of the function.

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From nospam at nowhere.hu  Sat Aug 14 13:34:04 2004
From: nospam at nowhere.hu (Miklós)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 19:34:04 +0200
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfli5n$5u1$1@namru.matavnet.hu>


"Michael Scarlett" <bitshadow at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25 at posting.google.com...
> There is an amazing article by paul graham about python, and an even
> better discussion about it on slashdot. The reason I point this out,
> is the more I read both articles, the more I realised how we would be
> mutilating the language with that god forsaken @ decorator.
> I don't know about the rest of you, but I learned python and fell in
> love with its syntax and simplicity. Python - just works. So please
> GVR. Don't complicate it. Leave it as is. Work on making it faster,
> not uglier. Work on - in some cases - better algorithms for certain
> modules, not for it to even closely resemble C or perl or god knows
> whateverotherlanguagethereisoutthere. Am i the only one with a
> visceral reaction to this thing???


This was precisely the motive behind my starting the thread "Going the PL1/1
way"
I also worry about Python's healthy simplicity.

Best regards,
   Mikl?s


>
> paul Graham article: http://www.paulgraham.com/pypar.html
>
> Slashdot discussion:
>
http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/04/08/12/1721239.shtml?tid=156&tid
=218




From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug 20 12:03:38 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:03:38 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2058.1093016284.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl>	<ZFoVc.360$MR2.1503@news1.mts.net>
	<mailman.2058.1093016284.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <kd6dnZ99Oaj8vbvcRVn-jw@powergate.ca>

Tim Hochberg wrote:

> Reid Nichol wrote:
>> Gerrit Muller wrote:
>>> and then a quantum leap towards Python.
>> You're aware that a quantum leap means a extremely small leap, right?
> 
> While quanta are typically very-very-very small, last I checked the key 
> feature of quantum transitions is not that they're small, but that there 
> are no intermediate steps. The object is in state A then it's in state 
> B, but it's never halfway (or anywhere) between. Like most quantum stuff 
> it's better not to think about that too closely.

And at least some dictionaries give it as a synonym for "large"
or "significant".  (www.m-w.com for one)

-Peter


From vinay_sajip at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Aug  6 05:08:14 2004
From: vinay_sajip at yahoo.co.uk (Vinay Sajip)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 02:08:14 -0700
Subject: Logging with multiple loggers/handlers
References: <10em3kass56nq9b@corp.supernews.com>
	<10ep21af0c9kv4c@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <2e37dc1.0408060108.3f3a27dd@posting.google.com>

>     Loggers are never instantiated directly. Instead, a module-level
>     function is used:
> 
>     def getLogger(name=None): ...
> 
>     If no name is specified, the root logger is returned. Otherwise,
>     if a logger with that name exists, it is returned. If not, a new
>     logger is initialized and returned. Here, "name" is synonymous
>     with "channel name".
> 
> And the descriptions of the config file
> (http://www.red-dove.com/python_logging.html#config):
> 
>     #The channel value indicates the lowest portion of the channel name 
> of the
>     #logger. For a logger called "a.b.c", this value would be "c".
> 
> All of this combined to give me the impression that the name that's 
> passed to getLogger() should be the "lowest portion" channel name, 
> rather than the fully qualified name -- i.e., that I should be using 
> "log03" instead of "log02.log03".  As it turns out, my impression was 
> wrong -- it's the fully qualified name that should be used.

> While it's fairly likely that my interpretation of the docs is not 
> something that many people will come up with, I think it might be 
> worthwhile to expand the example sections to actually show how to use 
> multiple heirarchical loggers.  Had there been an example to follow, I 
> certainly wouldn't have made this mistake.

The example in http://www.red-dove.com/python_logging.html#config does
show in bold the items used by the configuration API, and says that
the others are just used by the GUI configurator. Perhaps "channel"
was the wrong name to use for a private element in the configurator,
but it's done now.


From nospam at nowhere.hu  Sun Aug  8 16:35:43 2004
From: nospam at nowhere.hu (Miklós)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 22:35:43 +0200
Subject: Acquiring Prothon libraries [Was: Prothon is switching to the .NET
	platform]
References: <000401c47b59$32539220$0d01a8c0@MarkVaio>
	<mailman.1257.1091769173.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<11uq0duazp1vy.1g2zjz8xyfosl.dlg@40tude.net>
Message-ID: <cf62ra$t6v$1@namru.matavnet.hu>

"Mark Hahn" <mark at prothon.org> wrote in message
news:11uq0duazp1vy.1g2zjz8xyfosl.dlg at 40tude.net...
>
> Do you have any other ideas on how I could get a decent library in a
decent
> timeframe?

Sorry to butt in, Mark, I don't know much about Prothon, etc. (Though I
checked out the website several times and at least already downloaded a
tarrball ;) )
Isn't it possible to automate or semi-automate the conversion of the Python
libraries somehow?
There must be a sensible mapping of class-based code to prototype-based
code..
I agree with Guido that .NET is not your right path for the reasons he
wrote.

Best,
   Mikl?s

>
> Mark Hahn





From alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 18 18:02:15 2004
From: alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 15:02:15 -0700
Subject: how to change the text in the title bar of the Tkinter windows
References: <8f17f4bc.0408151822.1be2de2e@posting.google.com>
	<cfpous$kcr$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>
	<8f17f4bc.0408171417.456199d1@posting.google.com>
	<1d6cdae3.0408171904.7c625d81@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <8f17f4bc.0408181311.35e41fbb@posting.google.com>

Thank you


From jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl  Sat Aug  7 18:59:52 2004
From: jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl (Jarek Zgoda)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 22:59:52 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: elements of decorator syntax suggestions
References: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1298.1091815362.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4edc17eb.0408062125.231f7bef@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1324.1091857951.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<41155C33.37EEB397@alcyone.com>
Message-ID: <cf3mt8$948$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>

Erik Max Francis <max at alcyone.com> pisze:

>> Overloading a unary prefix operator is out.  As Anthony said, vertical
>> bar seemed to be the leading contender on python-dev Friday.  You can
>> find tedious arguments there about most of the others that would go
>> for you.
> 
> Why is | superior to @?  | already has a meaning in Python, and it has
> nothing to do with decorators ... at least @ has the virtue of currently
> being unused in the language, and having the precedent of being used for
> a similar feature in Java.

Sure, use all characters, that are still not used. Fine. I propose "^".
If this fails, please consider "~" and "`".

Oh, and ";" is still not used in Python, what about some special meaning
for that one?

-- 
Jarek Zgoda
http://jpa.berlios.de/


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Sat Aug 14 23:43:32 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:43:32 +1000
Subject: import node into document
In-Reply-To: <1092539401.411ed409ae40c@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
References: <1092539401.411ed409ae40c@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <1092541412.411edbe4cf51c@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

stupid me, importNode


Quoting Ajay <abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au>:

> hi!
>
> I have two documents 'policy' and 'dataschema'.
> how can i add a node (say, noded) from 'dataschema' as a child to a
> particular node in 'policy' (say nodep)
> java has importNode, is there an equivalent function in Python. if not,
> how
> do i go about doing it?
> just doing nodep.appendChild(noded) throws an error saying they are of
> different documents
> doing noded.ownerDocument = nodep.ownerDocument also throws an error
> saying
> ownerDocument is a read-only object.
>
> how do i then do the import?
>
> thanks
>
> cheers
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From indigo at bitglue.com  Mon Aug  2 12:50:54 2004
From: indigo at bitglue.com (Phil Frost)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 12:50:54 -0400
Subject: Trimming a string
In-Reply-To: <10gsotqjc2qrl54@news.supernews.com>
References: <10gsmuieo65du5d@news.supernews.com>
	<ektPc.165630$OB3.11201@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
	<10gsotqjc2qrl54@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <20040802165054.GA18235@unununium.org>

I couldn't agree more. The people on this list are total jerks and could
use a real attitude adjustment. You might want to check out
<http://www.php.net/>; the user commuinity there is one of the smartest
and most helpful.

On Mon, Aug 02, 2004 at 08:54:34AM -0700, Double Dumbass on You wrote:
> Do you feel better about yourself for having posted a smug, shithead-type
> answer, troll??
> 
> As a matter of fact, I was in a near fatal car wreck about 7 years ago.
> Suffered some brain damage.  Now, I can't remember minute details such as
> that which I asked.  I have read the python documentation numerous times.
> Sometimes, I just need a simple answer to a simple question, you simple
> cocksucker.
> 
> GO FUCK YOURSELF, it will be time well spent for you.
> 
> "wes weston" <wweston at att.net> wrote in message
> news:ektPc.165630$OB3.11201 at bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > Double Dumbass on You wrote:
> > > I have a string that is 7 characters and represents file mode in
> > > UNIX/LINUX from rpm:
> > >
> > > 0100755
> > >
> > > I don't care about the 0100 portion, I am only interested in the
> > > file permissions portion which is 755.  How can I get three
> > > characters from the string starting at the right?  ( -OR- strip 4
> > > characters from the left? )
> >
> >
> > >>> x = "0100755"
> > >>> print x[4:]
> > 755
> >
> > Reading the tutorial is really time well spent.
> >
> > wes


From kleeburg at cs.ucdavis.edu  Fri Aug 20 17:49:10 2004
From: kleeburg at cs.ucdavis.edu (Travis James Kleeburg)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:49:10 -0700
Subject: Files in unix and windows
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408201440270.4916-100000@pc64.cs.ucdavis.edu>

I am trying to copy files from one directory into another using 
shutil.copy. I am having a problem getting a usable path using 
os.path.abspath because it doesnt return a string with the extra 
backslashes and i was wondering if there was a better system call to use? 
I am also looking for a system call so there wont be a problem between windows and 
unix.




From cjw at sympatico.ca  Sat Aug 21 08:59:13 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 08:59:13 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <yGHVc.38447$Tr.1936227@news20.bellglobal.com>

J2 C1 C1

Colin W.

Paul McGuire wrote:
[snip]



From sross at connectmail.carleton.ca  Thu Aug 12 07:58:53 2004
From: sross at connectmail.carleton.ca (Sean Ross)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 07:58:53 -0400
Subject: decorator with ```
References: <mailman.1555.1092303160.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<0zISc.18837$a65.823987@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <%XISc.18841$a65.827046@news20.bellglobal.com>


"Sean Ross" <sross at connectmail.carleton.ca> wrote in message
news:0zISc.18837$a65.823987 at news20.bellglobal.com...
[snip]
> def makeDecoratorSyntax(spec=None):
>     ```"""  Factory for new decorator syntaxes.
>
>          Keeps all proposals in a list and will recombine
>           them at random if called without a spec.
>         """
>     this = staticmethod(this)      # <- transformation explicit
>     this.author = "somebody"    # <- add attributes normally
>     ```
>     raise NotImplementedException()
[snip]

It would work something like this:

def triplebacktick(this, transform):
    this.doc = transform.doc
    return transform(this)

def transform(f):
    """  Factory for new decorator syntaxes.

          Keeps all proposals in a list and will recombine
          them at random if called without a spec.
    """
    f = staticmethod(f)
    f.author = "somebody"
    return f

def makeDecoratorSyntax(spec=None):
    raise NotImplementedException()

makeDecoratorSyntax = triplebacktick(makeDecoratorSyntax, transform)





From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Fri Aug  6 17:45:45 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 14:45:45 -0700
Subject: elements of decorator syntax suggestions
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1298.1091815362.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1298.1091815362.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10h7uvb5f5nee44@corp.supernews.com>

Anthony Baxter wrote:

>>3) List notation
>>As I understand it, it's already decided that any implementation of
>>decorators must allow for a list of decorators to be applied.  So
>>proposals that might be accepted must explain how this can be done.
>>The options I've seen:
>>* one per line (as currently)
>>    
>>
>
>There's some confusion as to how the one-per-line thing is ordered. I find
>it quite obvious, but I've been playing with this for a week now, so it might
>just be that I know the answer now. Simply - 
>
>@decA
>@decB
>@decC
>def func():
>
>is equivalent to 
>
>func = decA(decB(decC(func)))
>
>  
>

So one way of looking at this, then, is that the @ is (very loosely) 
semantically equivalent to an opening paren, with the closing paren 
being implied?

This makes sense if one thinks of decorators as a wrapper function that 
contains the true function.  It doesn't make quite so much sense when 
one is talking about decorators as meta_data_ which is attached to the 
function.  Clearly, decorators *can* be used in either sense, and 
equally clearly people who want metadata _will_ use decorators for that 
purpose.  But I suspect that at least part of the objection to the 
current syntax is that it doesn't fit with the model that would be 
expected for metadata, for which use-case function attributes seem a 
better fit.  There's a fundamental difference between the decorator 
being a (possibly recursive) container for a function, and functions 
being a container for a set of associated data (which might be other 
callables), and that distinction hasn't been explicitly addressed so far 
as I've seen.  (But note that I've only been reading discussions here, 
and haven't followed up on the py-dev archives.)

(I *still* don't like the two-or-more-lines-per-def, but it does make 
decorators-before-def seem more reasonable.)

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From dialton3#NOSPAM.JJJJKIKK at virgilio.it  Sun Aug  1 08:21:02 2004
From: dialton3#NOSPAM.JJJJKIKK at virgilio.it (Valentino Volonghi aka Dialtone)
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 14:21:02 +0200
Subject: IronPython-0.6 is now available!
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>
	<d111eafa.0407282143.11466046@posting.google.com>
	<du7k6wnqonm.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>
	<4108c149$0$11038$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<du7r7qv6t61.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>
	<Tj8Oc.5751$Z14.6963@news.indigo.ie>
	<mailman.942.1091146276.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<pan.2004.07.30.06.50.15.71822@virgilio.it>
	<mailman.998.1091245058.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.01.12.20.59.51772@virgilio.it>

On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:37:35 +1000, Derek Thomson wrote:

> So, why can't it just be basically:
> 
> object.echo("hello network")
> 
> ... as it is in CORBA and (other) XML-RPC and SOAP toolkits I've used.

I don't think that calling:

object.echo("hello network") 
instead of
object.callRemote('echo', 'hello network')

is making any difference at all... Actually the CORBA author is evalutaing
twisted for his next needs (IIRC). Add this to the fact that doing
callRemote() you are not moving any objects around, Perspective Broker
let's you copy objects from the remote side to the client side and then
you would be able to call

object.echo('hello network')

for instance.

> I also have a problem with the insistence on the use of asynchronous
> callbacks. In order to use the result of the RPC call later in the
> main flow of my code, I have to somehow block in the main thread for
> the the result to be returned from the server via the callback - this
> is something that can be done for me, and is handled simply and
> transparently in other RPC toolkits/mechanisms I've used.

Clearly you do not know deferreds. Twisted won't wait for your response
blocking the whole thread. It will just send the request and when the
response comes back it will call your code for you.

> I'll try to characterize this with a simple example. How would I write
> something like this, where I have three distributed objects:
> 
> i = an_object.get_value()
> j = another_object.get_value()
> k = yet_another_object.combine(i, j)
> 
> ... and now finally use "k" in my code?

You will use it in a callback.

Obviously if you don't like callbacks you won't like twisted, but this
doesn't make RPC with twisted primitive. I would say that you simply don't
like the way you write code with twisted.

> I could be missing something, but isn't that going to turn into a mess
> of dependant callbacks in Twisted? Aren't I going to have to write a
> whole lot of code that blocks until the results come back? I don't
> mean this as a challenge or a judgement anything, I'd honestly like to
> know - I would like to look further into Twisted but was pretty much
> put off by this issue right from the start.

Code won't block. You should read how deferreds work (note: they are not
making your blocking code into non-blocking code, but they will be waiting
in the background for an answer to a request, without blocking everything).

BTW Twisted provides 2 different ways of making you blocking code
non-blocking.

You can use deferToThread, if you have a very long atomic operation (like
querying a remote database), or you can divide your very-big-function into
many different steps and call each other with 
reactor.callLater(0, nextStep)
Which makes the call happen the next cicle in the reactor (so to allow the
reactor to handle some requests in the meantime).

Usually for third party modules with blocking logic the most used choice
is deferToThread. But I suggest you reading the documentation from
www.twistedmatrix.com which is a lot more helpful.

HTH

-- 
Valentino Volonghi aka Dialtone
Linux User #310274, Proud Gentoo User
Blog: http://vvolonghi.blogspot.com
Home Page: http://xoomer.virgilio.it/dialtone/



From pink at odahoda.de  Tue Aug 24 17:38:05 2004
From: pink at odahoda.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:38:05 +0200
Subject: urllib hangs
In-Reply-To: <a6fdfd6b.0408241006.6b5c4d65@posting.google.com>
References: <a6fdfd6b.0408230902.2afc0e08@posting.google.com>
	<cgdaoh$1gn$01$1@news.t-online.com>
	<a6fdfd6b.0408231537.c2c5af2@posting.google.com>
	<tZOdnSAokOE9VbfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<a6fdfd6b.0408241006.6b5c4d65@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cggcg3$k49$02$1@news.t-online.com>

I don't know how it exactly works myself. But for dynamic languages like 
python it is part of the design that things can be changed on-the-fly:

###### foo.py
# assume this module is part of the standard lib
def A():
     print "A called"

def B():
     A()   # this could also be in another module
           # the effect would be the same

###### bar.py
# this is an addon that modifies foo
import foo

origA = foo.A
def newA():
     print "before A"
     origA()
     print "after A"
foo.A = newA

###### test.py
import foo
B()
import bar
B()

------------

It doesn't matter where the files are placed - once modules are found in 
a directory listed in os.path they are all 'equal'.
This is a powerful feature (if you know how to use it correctly) and one 
thing that make dynamic languages dynamic. Once a module is imported, 
all imports result in a reference to the same module - if that one is 
modified, the modification will be visible everywhere where the module 
is imported (but this is not true for 'from foo import A', because this 
is a reference to the original function that cannot be changed by anyone 
once you get a hold of it).
(My first try was to overwrite time.time(), hoping that time.ctime() 
would show a modified time. This didn't work, probably because both 
time() and ctime() make a call to a lower level function. A good example 
for not tampering with other peoples code unless you know how it works...)

Ok, enough to explain, why you don't have to modify any file of the 
standard library in order to change its the behaviour.
The author of timeoutsocket was in fact not clear about the location 
where the actual file has to be placed, probably because he assumed that 
everyone knows that it doesn't matter.

Jay Donnell wrote:
>>have you actually looked at the comments in that
>>module yet?  It does say exactly what you need to do...
> 
> 
> I don't understand the inner workings of the socket or timeoutsocket
> modules. On it's face it doesn't make sense that importing
> timeoutsocket would magically override the behaviour of socket without
> me doing anything else to the socket module. This appears to be what
> happens, but it certainly isn't clear to someone that doesn't know how
> it works. Here is what timeoutsocket says, "After this module
> has been imported, all socket creation goes through this shim. ".
> After reading this I was unsure if I needed to install
> timeoutsocket.py into the base python distro because, again, it seems
> odd that simply dropping timeoutsocket.py into my cwd and importing it
> will override the behaviour of the socket module. This didn't say
> "exactly what I need to do". It assumed a few things that seemed odd
> to me. How does timeoutsocket.py " insert a shim into the socket
> module."? What does that mean??? It wasn't clear! In the time it took
> you and the other guy to criticize me you could have simply said,
> "yeah, just drop it into your cwd and import it".
> 
> P.S. - I really do appreciate the help that Benjamin gave.
> 
> Here is what timeoutsocket says.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "This module enables a timeout mechanism on all TCP connections.   
> After this module
> has been imported, all socket creation goes through this shim.  As a
> result, every TCP connection will support a timeout.
> 
> The beauty of this method is that it immediately and transparently
> enables the entire python library to support timeouts on TCP sockets.
> As an example, if you wanted to SMTP connections to have a 20 second
> timeout:
> 
>     import timeoutsocket
>     import smtplib
>     timeoutsocket.setDefaultSocketTimeout(20)
> 
> 
> The timeout applies to the socket functions that normally block on
> execution:  read, write, connect, and accept.  If any of these
> operations exceeds the specified timeout, the exception Timeout
> will be raised.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------


From michele.simionato at gmail.com  Sat Aug  7 11:42:06 2004
From: michele.simionato at gmail.com (Michele Simionato)
Date: 7 Aug 2004 08:42:06 -0700
Subject: decorators and multimethods
References: <4edc17eb.0408062340.71ab270f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <4edc17eb.0408070742.664fa9c0@posting.google.com>

michele.simionato at gmail.com (Michele Simionato) wrote in message news:<4edc17eb.0408062340.71ab270f at posting.google.com>...

<snip using decorators as syntactic sugar over Howard Stearns module>

Martin v. Lewis suggested an improvement, which involves adding the 
following method to the Generic_Function class:

    def addmethod(self, *types):
        "My own tiny modification to Stearns code"
        return lambda f: self.setdefault(types,f)

The advantage is that methods definitions can go in any scope now and
not only at the top level as in my original hack.
My previous example read:

foo = Generic_Function()

@foo.addmethod(object, object, object)
def _(call_next, x, y, z):
   return 'default'

@foo.addmethod(int, int, int)
def _(call_next, x, y, z):
   return 'all ints , ' + call_next(x, y, z)

@foo.addmethod(object, object)
def _(call_next, x, y):
   return 'just two'

where I use "_" as a poor man anonymous function. I cannot reuse the name
"foo" now, since

@foo.addmethod(...)
def foo(..):
 ....

is really converted to

def foo(..)
 ...

foo=foo.addmethod(...)(foo)

and this would correctly raise a "foo function has not attribute addmethod"!
But in some sense this is better, since we avoid any confusion
between the member functions and the generic function (which is implemented
as a dictionary, BTW).

        Michele Simionato


From mahesh at privacy.net  Wed Aug 25 22:40:33 2004
From: mahesh at privacy.net (Mahesh Padmanabhan)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 20:40:33 -0600
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <mahesh-2A3611.20403325082004@individual.net>

In article <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list at python.org>,
 "Robert Brewer" <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote:

> The J2 proposal is as complete as it will ever be.
> 
> http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html
> 
> The patch is nearly complete; only the   future   declaration and some
> document tweaks remain. It should be updated on SourceForge today or
> tomorrow.
> 
> This is a call for all who wish to sign the proposal, either for,
> against, or abstaining. Please sign by either posting on
> comp.lang.python (replying to this is fine), or sending email to
> fumanchu at amor.org (for some of you reading this, here's a link:
> mailto:fumanchu at amor.org). Please include your full name. If you reject
> the proposal, please also include a  short  description of why you are
> rejecting it. You will not receive a reply regarding the rejection or
> description; it will be included for Guido's information purposes only.
> 
> Please read the proposal carefully before signing. In particular,
> carefully read the statement (for, against, or abstaining) to which you
> are signing your name; each is explicit and means exactly what it says.
> 
> Thanks again to those who have contributed in all forms. Hopefully, we
> can put this decorator issue to rest soon and move on.
> 
> 
> Robert Brewer
> MIS
> Amor Ministries
> fumanchu at amor.org
> 
> P.S. I'll be out of town from Friday morning to Sunday evening (U.S.
> Pacific Time), so get your name in early. Given sufficient volume, I'll
> promote this to Guido just before I leave; otherwise, I'll wait 'til
> Sunday night to finish compiling names.

I vote for J2.


From mwh at python.net  Thu Aug 19 09:34:49 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:34:49 GMT
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
References: <mailman.1661.1092519005.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7x7js1i887.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<slrnchug4m.n0d.npat@gray.efault.net> <zn4w2y3g.fsf@telus.net>
	<slrnci21mq.h3l.npat@gray.efault.net>
Message-ID: <m38ycbl092.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Nick Patavalis <npat at efault.net> writes:

> What!?! CPython uses the *C-stack* !!?!?! Is there a reason for this?

It's easy enough to make Python calling Python not use the C stack.
For all the zillion ways you can go Python -> some C -> Python, well,
that's not so easy.  One of the Python implementations advantages is
it's relative transparency.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  > I wouldn't want to live without readline, but some of the 
  > things it does call for the application of thumbscrews.
                                                   -- me on python-dev


From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Tue Aug 31 20:21:14 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 02:21:14 +0200
Subject: file access in jythonc
References: <9eabe547.0408210611.d5e54f7@posting.google.com>
	<9eabe547.0408301406.2543e691@posting.google.com>
	<ch09pi$dh2$04$1@news.t-online.com>
	<9eabe547.0408311130.73beef80@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <ch34li$86k$05$1@news.t-online.com>

> So...are you saying it can be done? That is, a IE can access a local
> file (assuming it's there, of course) using a jythonc product?
> Question is -- HOW???

As I said - search google for JAVA APPLETS ACCESSING LOCAL FILES - then you
can do that using jython. As a matter of fact, the whole process has to do
with signing jars - nobody cares if these contain classes generated by
javac, jikes, jythonc or carefully handwritten jvm bytecode....

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Fri Aug  6 09:39:17 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 06:39:17 -0700
Subject: Dynamic Class Creation
References: <mailman.1266.1091788221.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1091799955.309152@news.commspeed.net>


"Steffen Schoen" <python.noob at gmx.de> wrote in message
news:mailman.1266.1091788221.5135.python-list at python.org...
> (maybe it works better with Subject ;))
>
> Hi there,
> my problem: i have a directory, where several python modules (classes) are
> stored.
> The names of these modules arent known before runtime. Now i want to parse
> the Directory and create an instance of each class. I tried to handle this
> with
> new.instance() and new.clasobj() but this didnt really work for me. Any
> Ideas ?

You could try something like,

>>>import os
>>> import imp
>>>import glob
>>>modualnames = glob.glob('mydir\\*\\*.py')
>>>classdict = {}
>>>for i in modualnames:
>>>    flnm = file(i)
>>>    nm = os.path.splitext(os.path.basename(i))[0]
>>>    classdict[nm] = imp.load_module(nm ,flnm ,i,'')

check out the imp module in the Global Module Index.

Tom




From jerf at jerf.org  Sat Aug 21 23:13:45 2004
From: jerf at jerf.org (Jeremy Bowers)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 03:13:45 GMT
Subject: Question about importing modules
References: <u76fi0l133m45cb37flh4pma2sf44h8l9r@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.21.23.13.38.948779@jerf.org>

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:59:36 -0400, pythos wrote:

> Newbie at python (but not programming) here...
> 
> I have a program that has "import os" at the top, and then later a call to
> utime() is made.  The python interpreter says "name 'utime' is not defined".
> But if I change "utime(...)" to "os.utime(...)" then it works fine.  Perhaps I
> am expecting the "import os" statement to work the same way as "import
> <package_name>.*" does in Java.  So is it the case that if I write "import os"
> in python, then I still need to write "os.utime(...)"?  Or is there something
> else wrong?  Thanks.

Taking a slightly different tack than your other repliers which I think
might be more educational in the long run, pop open a Python shell and do
an "import os". That creates a "module" object in the current namespace
which you can manipulate. Example:

Python 2.3.4 (#1, Jun  8 2004, 17:41:43) 
[GCC 3.3.3 20040217 (Gentoo Linux 3.3.3, propolice-3.3-7)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import os
>>> os
<module 'os' from '/usr/lib/python2.3/os.pyc'>
>>> dir(os) 
['EX_CANTCREAT', 'EX_CONFIG', 'EX_DATAERR', 'EX_IOERR', 'EX_NOHOST', 'EX_NOINPUT
', 'EX_NOPERM', 'EX_NOUSER', 'EX_OK', 'EX_OSERR', 'EX_OSFILE', 'EX_PROTOCOL', 'E
X_SOFTWARE', 'EX_TEMPFAIL', 'EX_UNAVAILABLE', 'EX_USAGE', 'F_OK', 'NGROUPS_MAX',
... whole lotta other stuff ...
 'stat', 'stat_float_times', 'stat_result', 'statvfs', 'statvfs_result', 'strerr
or', 'symlink', 'sys', 'sysconf', 'sysconf_names', 'system', 'tcgetpgrp', 'tcset
pgrp', 'tempnam', 'times', 'tmpfile', 'tmpnam', 'ttyname', 'umask', 'uname', 'un
link', 'unsetenv', 'utime', 'wait', 'waitpid', 'walk', 'write']

"os" is an object that can be passed around like anything else. (Though I
have yet to ever have need to pass around a module object I can imagine
rare cases where it might be useful.)

That's why you can also use "import" in a function, and the module object
will be local to the function. (You can not use "from os import *" for
various technical reasons, but that's usually not useful anyhow.)

"from os import *" loads the "os" object, then walks it and loads its
contents into your local namespace. This is a particularly bad idea for
"os" because it has function names like "open", "path", "wait", "write",
and a lot of other function names you're likely to collide with. It is
rarely a good idea for code, though I will confess to sometimes using
"from constants import *" in large programs, leaning on the ALL_CAPS
convention to indicate "constantness".


From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Mon Aug  9 16:49:40 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 13:49:40 -0700
Subject: Decorators
In-Reply-To: <ad052e5c.0408071826.29f1bfb0@posting.google.com>
References: <%A8Rc.50217$Vm1.1280580@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<ad052e5c.0408071826.29f1bfb0@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <10hfoqa9cj3e356@corp.supernews.com>

Dan Bishop wrote:

>"Colin J. Williams" <cjw at sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<%A8Rc.50217$Vm1.1280580 at news20.bellglobal.com>...
>  
>
>>Christopher T. King suggested that "we're trying to kill too many birds 
>>with one stone".
>> 
>>http://groups.google.com/groups?q=stone+birds+group:comp.lang.python&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=Pine.LNX.4.44.0408050856390.31290-100000%40ccc9.wpi.edu&rnum=1
>>
>>He goes on to suggest three needs which decorators serve.  Are these the 
>>only purposes which are envisaged for decorators?
>>    
>>
>
>If I understand correctly, they'd be useful for anything where you'd
>now use the syntax
>
>function = decorator(function)
>  
>

Many of the uses I'm seeing proposed for decorators would fit better 
into the current syntax:

def func( ... )
    pass
dosomething(func)

In other words, they're not specifically changing the behavior of the 
function, but they are using the (name and/or address of the) function 
in some other context.  The modification of the function (or method) 
itself is an unnecessary side effect. 

Whether this distinction matters is obviously a purely aesthetic matter, 
since obviously the decorator can rebind the name to the original 
function object instead of a wrapping-function object.  But still, it 
does suggest that this concept is indeed being put to multiple 
orthogonal purposes. 

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From me at privacy.net  Mon Aug 23 09:12:53 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Dan Sommers)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 09:12:53 -0400
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408230004350.22879-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>
	<mailman.2175.1093233838.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<q9OdnRDkR-VsMbTcRVn-pw@lmi.net>
Message-ID: <m2zn4mm20a.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 01:36:31 -0700,
"David Pokorny" <davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu> wrote:

> There must be some cognitive-visual thingamajig going on here because I find

> using:
>     staticmethod synchronized memoize
> def bar(foo):
>     "upends the established order of metasyntactic keywords"
>     pass

> much more readable than

> @staticmethod synchronized memoize
> def bar(foo):
>     "upends the established order of metasyntactic keywords"
>     pass

> [I think it has something to do with the traffic jam at the left margin.]

I agree.  That traffic jam seems to promote staticmethod to the sole
decorator, and demote synchronized and memoize to sub-decorators of
staticmethod.

IMO, simply adding a space after the pie puts all three decorators "at
the same level":

    @ staticmethod synchronized memoize

That said, I'd prefer a keyword and a colon over that pie-thingy any
day.

Regards,
Dan

-- 
Dan Sommers
<http://www.tombstonezero.net/dan/>
Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.


From beliavsky at aol.com  Tue Aug 10 09:49:38 2004
From: beliavsky at aol.com (beliavsky at aol.com)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 06:49:38 -0700
Subject: pro python paper
References: <305aa162.0408091905.5bce8f9a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <3064b51d.0408100549.213dad5@posting.google.com>

ccdetail at gmail.com (ccdetail) wrote in message news:<305aa162.0408091905.5bce8f9a at posting.google.com>...
> http://www.journyx.com/pdf/PythonAtAGlance.pdf
> 
> the above paper is a response to some of our prospects complaints
> 
> they were asking us why we use python
> 
> thought you guys might be interested
> 
> http://journyx.com/clf

I think the paper exaggerates the virtues of Python relative to other
languages, reducing the credibility of the authors. The paragraph in
the Python myths section

"It has no compiler to native code, which means Python programs run
slower.  True, it does not compile. That does not mean, however, that
Python programs run slower. If you are tracking the speed of quarks or
landing the space shuttle, you might want to write in Assembly or some
other very low-level language.  Other than that, a standard business
application written in Python will run every bit as well as one
written in any other language."

pretends that the main alternative to Python is Assembly, or some
other
"very low-level language". Have the authors not heard of C++ (with the
Standard Template Library) or Fortran 95 (with multidimensional arrays
and associated intrinsic functions)?

It is more honest and credible to admit that a Python program often is
slower than one in a compiled language, but that reduced programming
time in Python often outweighs this deficit.


From mus at thamers.com  Fri Aug 13 17:30:50 2004
From: mus at thamers.com (Mustafa Thamer)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 14:30:50 -0700
Subject: can't reload with PEP 302 import hooks
Message-ID: <541c9664.0408131330.3a536b29@posting.google.com>

Hi, I'm using import hooks according to PEP 302, in order to load
python files from a game PAK file.  The game is C++ using embedded and
extended Python (v2.33) and Boost.  The importing works fine, but
after modules are imported I can't reload them.  I've tried
'reload(foo)' and 'PyImport_ReloadModule(pModPtr)', but both return
'ImportError: No module named foo'.
Is it safe to assume that reload doesn't respect the import hook? 
That seems like a problem.  Is there any work-around?

thanks

Here is my hook object code:

class myImportHandler:
   def find_module(self, fullname, path=None):
      return self                      # returns the loader object
   def _get_code(self, fullname):            # load code from game PAK
      if (fullname in sys.builtin_module_names):
         return False,None
      codeString = loadImportModule(fullname)   # CALLING C++ FUNCTION
      bIsPackage = False                  # not using PACKAGES
      if len(codeString):
         codeString2 = codeString.replace('\\r\','\')
         code = compile(codeString2, fullname, 'exec')
      else:
         code=None
      return bIsPackage,code
   def normal_import(self, fullname):        # for built-ins
      file,pathname,desc=imp.find_module(fullname)
      return imp.load_module(fullname,file,pathname,desc)
   def load_module(self, fullname):          
      try:
         mod = sys.modules[fullname]         # check if module is
already loaded in sys.module?
      except KeyError:
         ispkg, code = self._get_code(fullname)
         if code==None:                # failed importing from game
PAK
            return self.normal_import(fullname)
         mod = imp.new_module(fullname)      # create new module
         sys.modules[fullname] = mod
         mod.__file__ = '<%s>' % self.__class__.__name__
         mod.__loader__ = self
         if ispkg:
            mod.__path__ = []          
         exec code in mod.__dict__
      return mod


From ed-no at spam-eepatents.com  Fri Aug 13 13:33:47 2004
From: ed-no at spam-eepatents.com (Ed Suominen)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 10:33:47 -0700
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1616.1092409013.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <-_2dnZbL1qv6ZoHcRVn-vw@centurytel.net>

Dave Brueck wrote:

> beliavsky at aol.com wrote:
> 
>> One of the most commmon reasons programmers cite for not trying Python
>> is that indentation determines the program flow -- they think its
>> weird.
> 
> Yes, that is commonly cited. From the programmer's perspective,
> indentation implies program flow in nearly *all* modern languages. The
> difference is that in Python the compiler believes you.
> 
>> I think programmers who actually try Python adapt quickly and
>> do not find the indentation rules to be a problem.
> 
> Yep!

Exactly true in my case:

Day 1: "Wow, that's weird, but I guess I'll give it a try."
Day 2: "Hey, this is cool, and the code looks a LOT cleaner without all of
those braces strewn around."
Day 3: "Of COURSE whitespace is part of the code. It's part of the source
file, duh!"

---
Ed Suominen
Registered Patent Agent
Open-Source Software Author (yes, both...)
Web Site: http://www.eepatents.com


From jepler at unpythonic.net  Tue Aug 17 22:06:45 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:06:45 -0500
Subject: can tarfile maintain directory structure?
In-Reply-To: <a6fdfd6b.0408171508.65d670d0@posting.google.com>
References: <a6fdfd6b.0408171508.65d670d0@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <20040818020645.GC5422@unpythonic.net>

You can use os.walk (or os.path.walk for older versions of Python) to
recurse a directory tree.  Here's a simple script to use tarfile and
os.walk:

    import tarfile, sys, os

    t = tarfile.TarFile(sys.argv[1], "w")
    for f in sys.argv[2:]:
        for dirpath, dirnames, filenames in os.walk(f):
            for f in filenames:
                f = os.path.join(dirpath, f)
                print "Adding", f
                t.add(f)

    t.close()

Here's a sample session with it:
  * Creating a simple directory structure
    $ mkdir a
    $ touch a/file.txt
    $ mkdir a/subdir
    $ touch a/subdir/subfile.txt

  * Invoking the script
    $ python ~/mktar.py test.tar a
    Adding a/file.txt
    Adding a/subdir/subfile .txt

  * Checking on the results
    $ tar tvf test.tar
    -rw-rw-r-- jepler/jepler     0 2004-08-17 21:00:57 a/file.txt
    -rw-rw-r-- jepler/jepler     0 2004-08-17 21:01:03 a/subdir/subfile.txt

I suspect that to get compressed output would involve use of gzip.open
and the 3-argument TarFile constructor, something like
    import gzip
    g = gzip.open(sys.argv[1], "w")
    t = tarfile.TarFile(sys.argv[1], "w", g)
    ...
indeed, this seems to work for me.
    $ python ~/mktargz.py test.tar.gz a
    Adding a/file.txt
    Adding a/subdir/subfile.txt
    $ file test.tar.gz
    test.tar.gz: gzip compressed data, was "test.tar", max compression

Jeff
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From peter at engcorp.com  Wed Aug  4 23:00:33 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 23:00:33 -0400
Subject: cgi script headers - help
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1176.1091673487.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1176.1091673487.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <38ednYf1NLxPP4zcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>

Ajay wrote:

> hi!
> 
> i am generating a file on the fly and making a user download it.
> print "Content-Type: application/model\n\n"
> print "Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=modeldef3\n"
> print str
> 
> i set the Content-Disposition to force a download dialog box and also give
> the file a name.
> however when i view the headers sent by my script, i have only
> HTTP/1.1 200 OK
> Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 02:26:48 GMT
> Server: Apache/1.3.19 (Unix)
> Connection: close
> Content-Type: application/model
> 
> why isn't the Content-Disposition header coming up?

Probably because the previous line was terminated with three (3)
newlines, thus marking the end of the header section...

Note that print includes a newline normally, so including any
other newlines will result in at least a double newline, which
is the delimiter between header and body.

-Peter


From fumanchu at amor.org  Mon Aug 23 01:19:31 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 22:19:31 -0700
Subject: J2 paper 0.2.1
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E36@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

The first draft of the J2 proposal is ready. You can read it here:
http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html

At this point, I am looking for comments regarding the proposal. Once I
believe I have addressed a sufficient number of concerns, I will freeze
the document and call for signatories, both for and against, then send
it to Guido. Until that time, expect the draft to change multiple times
each day (there's a meta tag with the version number if you care to
check).

In this thread, please do not introduce discussions regarding syntaxes
other than J2 and A1. Limit your comments to the three arguments,
literary critique, and praise for Mr. Sparks who is providing the
implementation. Oh, and somebody let me know if you rampaging lot crush
my little server. ;)


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From tim.peters at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 16:24:54 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:24:54 -0400
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
In-Reply-To: <972ec5bd.0408141032.385fe115@posting.google.com>
References: <972ec5bd.0408141032.385fe115@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1f7befae0408141324569d467e@mail.gmail.com>

[Timothy Fitz]
> It seems to me that in python, generators are not truly coroutines.

Yes, formally speaking Python generators are semi-coroutines.

> I do not understand why.

Please read the PEP:

    http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0255.html

> What I see is that generators are used almost exclusively for
> generation of lists just-in-time. Side effects are frowned upon.

Simple uses are naturally most common.

> Coroutines, in contrast, are like split functions where
> side effects are often as important or more important than return
> values. I am currently writing a real time strategy game where I have
> visual effects and use generators as coroutines which yield after
> processing a single frame of the effect. I can easily make an object
> rotate indefinitely with a scant four or five lines of code, all of
> which is in one place. So knowing that the difference between a
> generator and a coroutine is minor, I come (in a very roundabout way)
> to my issue. Why can I use "return" without an expression and it
> implicitly returns None

If you explicitly intend to return None as a value, it's terrible
practice to spell that as

    return

instead of as

    return None

It's equally terrible practice to rely on that "falling off the end"
of a Python function returns None, when you expliclty intend to return
a None value.

Plain "return" is intended to be used in Python only when
*conceptually* no value is being returned, as in "a subroutine" as
opposed to "a function".  The language doesn't enforce the latter
distinction, but it's intended all the same.

> but I can't do the same thing with "yield" ?

It's the purpose of "yield" to deliver a value.  There was no intent
that it be possible to yield without delivering a value.  If you want
to deliver the value None, then say

    yield None

If you want a concept of yielding without delivering a value, that's
simply not a use case Python's generators intended to address.  If you
wish, you can adhere to a *convention* that "yield None" (or "yield
False", or "yield 42", ...) means "I'm not really delivering a value".


From bulatov at engr.orst.edu  Tue Aug  3 03:33:00 2004
From: bulatov at engr.orst.edu (Yaroslav Bulatov)
Date: 3 Aug 2004 00:33:00 -0700
Subject: Re_: Best way to run ipython inside of emacs shell?
Message-ID: <4d642979.0408022332.4380ad23@posting.google.com>

> Hi,
> 
> Equis Uno wrote:
> 
> > I use meta-x shell to start a shell and then once I see a shell
> > prompt I enter the python command and I get a well-behaved python
> > shell inside of emacs.
> > 
> > I'm trying to figure out the best way to run ipython inside of emacs.

I had the same problem. It has to do with ipython.el not finding the
IPython executable.

To fix it, open ipython.el, and replace line
(when (executable-find "ipython")
with
(when (executable-find "ipython.bat")

Next, add file ipython.bat to your path containing something like the
following:
C:\Python23\python.exe "C:\Program Files\IPython\IPython_shell.py"

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to work right on windows. The prompts
are missing so it's almost unusable.

Yaroslav


From nav+posts at bandersnatch.org  Fri Aug  6 10:04:59 2004
From: nav+posts at bandersnatch.org (Nick Vargish)
Date: 06 Aug 2004 10:04:59 -0400
Subject: Decorator syntax (was Re: PEP 318 - PyFIT comments)
References: <10h24oace15n97a@news.supernews.com>
	<du7zn5a1zxp.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>
	<m3y8ku1yt4.fsf@tanelorn.bandersnatch.org>
	<mailman.1229.1091735307.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m3llgsz7jo.fsf@tanelorn.bandersnatch.org>

Ronald Oussoren <ronaldoussoren at mac.com> writes:

> Why do you dislike it?

It has a negative impact on readability.

It's ugly.

It modifies a declaration outside the declaration.

It feels unpythonic.

Of course these are subjective responses, and my weighting of the
importance of these complaints may not match yours. From the comments
in this newsgroup, I don't have the feeling that I'm alone in some or
all of these criticisms.

Nick

-- 
#  sigmask  ||  0.2  ||  20030107  ||  public domain  ||  feed this to a python
print reduce(lambda x,y:x+chr(ord(y)-1),' Ojdl!Wbshjti!=obwAcboefstobudi/psh?')


From PPNTWIMBXFFC at spammotel.com  Thu Aug 26 10:37:30 2004
From: PPNTWIMBXFFC at spammotel.com (Marco Aschwanden)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:37:30 +0200
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<VJOdnfiBTci22rDcRVn-gg@adelphia.com>
	<aNidnUSV4-OK4rDcRVn-jA@powergate.ca>
	<b301fb47.0408260503.5dbb08f5@posting.google.com>
	<cgkqva$47g$1@swifty.westend.com>
Message-ID: <opsdcf8smf35jo5o@news.gmane.org>

> What does the Kaj ... phrase mean?
> "You are dumb", "Your joke is dumb", ...?

>> Bonvolu ne s:ercu pri nekonatoj aferoj. "Xah Lee" certe - pro manko de
Please don't make jokes about unknown things. "Xah Lee" for certain - [for 
esperanto] failing to have the

>> Ikso - ne estas esperanto. Kaj via s:erco nur s:tulta estas.
letter 'y' - is not esperanto. And your joke is nothing but stupid.

Saluton,
Marco




From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Mon Aug 23 22:09:41 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 02:09:41 GMT
Subject: newbie: confused with example in Learning Python 2nd
	Edition:cananyone give a hint
References: <mailman.2254.1093312305.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<RdxWc.15249$v86.14245@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <FrxWc.15256$v86.7922@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"Paul McGuire" <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> wrote in message
news:RdxWc.15249$v86.14245 at fe2.texas.rr.com...
> "Robert Brewer" <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote in message
> news:mailman.2254.1093312305.5135.python-list at python.org...
> Porky Pig Jr wrote:
> <snip>
>
> Hint: Python doesn't have variables like other languages do. The line:
>
>     self._data = list(data)
>
> does not make a copy of "data". Instead, it binds a new name
> (self._data) to the same object which the name "data" refers to.
>
>
> FuManChu
> ======================
>
> Er?  I thought list(data) called the list constructor to create a copy of
> data, and bind the new list to self._data.  That's why push and pop calls
> update the internal _data list without changing the original list.
>
> -- Paul
>
>

Well, this *is* a screwy example, and I question why this twisted thing is
in a beginner text.  I'm not even sure I really like the style anyway.

Here is the original Stack class posted by the OP:

>>> class Stack:
...     def __init__(self, data):
...             self._data = list(data)
...             self.push = data.append
...             self.pop = data.pop
...

As it turns out, this stack does not even need the assignment statement to
self._data at all.  Here is a fuller console example:

>>> class Stack:
...         def __init__(self, data):
...             self.push = data.append
...             self.pop = data.pop
...
>>> s = Stack([1,2,3])
>>>
>>> s.push(4)
>>> s.pop()
4

Where did the 4 get pushed to/popped from?!  This Stack class doesn't have
*any* member variable to store the list contents!

In fact, the stack is stored in the input list - in this case, the temporary
list literal [1,2,3].  This is a bit clearer if we pass in a variable
instead of a literal list:

>>> baselist = [1,2,3]
>>> s = Stack(baselist)
>>> s.push(4)
>>> baselist
[1, 2, 3, 4]

I can't say I'm thrilled about this class that silently takes ownership of
the input list.  I suspect that the book example has a typo, and that the
class should really read:

>>> class Stack:
...         def __init__(self, data):
...             self._data = list(data)
...             self.push = self._data.append
...             self.pop = self._data.pop

Now things are better behaved:

>>> s = Stack(baselist)
>>> baselist
[1, 2, 3, 4]
>>> s.pop()
4
>>> baselist
[1, 2, 3, 4]
>>> s._data
[1, 2, 3]

HTH,
-- Paul




From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug 30 15:45:00 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 19:45:00 GMT
Subject: Size of a remote URL
References: <cgvun2$q15@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <413383bc$0$65574$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-30, Justin <justin__devine at hotmail.com> wrote:

> I tried ethereal    however  the problem is I don't knwo how to
> read the packets correctly to udnerstand where the requests
> are.

Left click on any of the packets and select "follow TCP
stream".  It will show you a window containing requests in red
and replys in blue (or vice versa, I forget).

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  I smell like a wet
                                  at               reducing clinic on Columbus
                               visi.com            Day!


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Sat Aug 14 22:25:58 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 12:25:58 +1000
Subject: xml attributes question
Message-ID: <1092536758.411ec9b6cdacb@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

i am trying to print the keys of a NamedNodeMap which contains the
attributes of a element.
for the element,
<DATA ref="#business.name">CatalogExample</DATA>

i expect
attribs = plist[0].attributes
attribs.keys()
to print "ref" #plist[0] is the data element shown above
It however prints the following
[(None, u'ref')]

why?

thanks

cheers




----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 20 22:16:50 2004
From: alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 19:16:50 -0700
Subject: I would really like the code for a dome in vpython
References: <8f17f4bc.0408181349.46c34b2@posting.google.com>
	<clp7i09uubansi27ha70eblegbdhse18g3@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <8f17f4bc.0408201816.13d537a6@posting.google.com>

Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote in message news:<clp7i09uubansi27ha70eblegbdhse18g3 at 4ax.com>...
> On 18 Aug 2004 14:49:54 -0700, alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali) wrote:
> 
> >Please anyone I would really like the code for makinga dome in
> >vpython. I would like to be able to adjust he color, axis, radius, and
> >pos.
> 
> 
> You will lucky to find something readymade for VPython.
> 
> This looks like it would be helpful for finding dome corrdinates,
> which you can then use to plug-in to VPython:
> 
> http://www.applied-synergetics.com/ashp/html/domes.html
> 
> And Kirby is probably an excellent source of information in the area
> of the intersection of domes/Python/VPython. He knows a good deal
> about each of these things.
> 
> I don't know whether he monitors this list.  You might try posting to
> edu-sig at python.org which I know he monitors, to see if he has
> something to suggest.
> 
> I might have some other suggestions if a understood what you were
> trying to accomplish, and why.
> 
> 
> Art

I went to the link you gave but the link to download the software is broken. :(

Please Help


From joshway_without_spam at myway.com  Wed Aug 18 15:44:47 2004
From: joshway_without_spam at myway.com (JCM)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:44:47 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Embedding Python in Python
References: <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
	<7xu0v0l2be.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<cg09ne$ma7$1@fred.mathworks.com>
	<7x3c2kkzn8.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <cg0bjf$78b$1@fred.mathworks.com>

Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at nospam.invalid> wrote:
> JCM <joshway_without_spam at myway.com> writes:
>> If you're concerned about security, another possibility is to parse
>> the user's code and look for anything potentially dangerous.  You'll
>> need to be aggressive, but I believe it's possible.  For example,
>> disallow exec statements, the identifier "eval", any identifier of
>> __this__ form, import statements, etc.  This is overly restrictive,
>> but it will provide security.

> By the time you're done with all that, you may as well design a new
> restricted language and interpret just that.

> Hint: 
>   e = vars()['__builtins__'].eval
>   print e('2+2')

> Even Java keeps getting new holes found, and Python is not anywhere
> near Java when it comes to this kind of thing.

I don't think it's as difficult as you think.  Your snippet of code
would be rejected by the rules I suggested.  You'd also want to
prohibit other builtins like compile, execfile, input, reload, vars,
etc.


From kyleroot at gmail.com  Sat Aug  7 10:28:39 2004
From: kyleroot at gmail.com (Kyle Root)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 14:28:39 GMT
Subject: Questions about parsing XML
In-Reply-To: <cf2on8$mco$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>
References: <%T4Rc.150$Iv.46@trndny03> <cf2mn0$gqn$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>
	<Fn5Rc.209$Kv2.21@trndny09> <cf2on8$mco$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>
Message-ID: <rG5Rc.166$Iv.144@trndny03>

Jarek Zgoda wrote:
> 
> Python's xmllib (regular expression based parser) is not the same
> software as libxml2 (GNOME XML library) ;).
> 
> If you need full support for XPath, XPointer, XInclude or namespaces
> (see http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2004/06/30/py-xml.html) I recommend using
> libxml2. Some people say that some of its parsers are also faster than
> original J. Clark's expat (although not as easy to use as expat or
> expat-like SAX parser from libxml2).
> 

Okay thank you very much!
I like libxml2's docs better than the Python Library Reference anyways. :D


From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 24 02:07:01 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 01:07:01 -0500
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <eyqWc.223375$j62.10948731@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
References: <20040819231139.D039A1E4003@bag.python.org>
	<mailman.1999.1092969866.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<eyqWc.223375$j62.10948731@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
Message-ID: <qVAWc.2328$MR2.9560@news1.mts.net>

Roel Schroeven wrote:
> Sakesun Roykiattisak wrote:
> 
>> BTW, The histrogram suggest that python is not being used as the first 
>> programming language as much as it should be.
> 
> 
> Indeed.
> 
> Also the relatively high number of older programmers (> 50) surprises 
> me. Personnaly I know only one programmer in that age group, all others 
> are less than 40 years old. Possibly the fraction of older programmers 
> is larger under Python programmers compared to other languages? Maybe 
> that shouldn't be surprising: wisdom comes with age, as they say.
> 

Although I am suprisd at that high ages of a lot of the people here I'm 
not really suprised that the average is higher that would typically be 
expected as I've found that when I mention the word "newsgroup" to the 
other students when I was going to school (and even now with supposedly 
other graduates), they just give me a confused look.  Perhaps it's just 
where I went to school though or where I hang out, but it can't all be 
coincidence.


From grzegorz at ee.ualberta.ca  Fri Aug  6 16:18:11 2004
From: grzegorz at ee.ualberta.ca (Grzegorz Dostatni)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 16:18:11 -0400
Subject: Extending python.
In-Reply-To: <UfidnTOxmMe3bo7cRVn-pw@comcast.com>
References: <mailman.1305.1091817612.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061307140.8941-100000@e5-05.ee.ualberta.ca>
	<UfidnTOxmMe3bo7cRVn-pw@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061616280.8941-100000@e5-05.ee.ualberta.ca>


For license reasons I cannot link to the library dynamically. It has to be
compiled into the python executable.

I do have the source available for the libraries, but the logistics would
be a lot easier if I could simply use the object files.

Greg


My programs use cvs, my mine uses pine.
	- Me


On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Larry Bates wrote:

> Is the C that you wish to call located in a .DLL?
> If so, I can possibly help.
>
> Larry Bates
> Syscon, Inc.
>
> "Grzegorz Dostatni" <grzegorz at ee.ualberta.ca> wrote in message
> news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061307140.8941-100000 at e5-05.ee.ualberta.ca...
> >
> > Followup.
> >
> > Thanks, I'll re-read this again.
> >
> > Small change. I've managed to extend python with a small module (just
> > using the .o file) under Linux. It appears that my problems are a bit more
> > windows centric. Anyone willing and able to help me with that?
> >
> > Greg
> >
> > "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> >  But, in practice, there is."
> > - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Batista, Facundo wrote:
> >
> > > Maybe this will help you:
> > >
> > > http://www.python.org/doc/faq/extending.html
> > >
> > > . Facundo
> > >
> > > #- -----Mensaje original-----
> > > #- De: Grzegorz Dostatni [mailto:grzegorz at ee.ualberta.ca]
> > > #- Enviado el: Viernes, 06 de Agosto de 2004 13:35
> > > #- Para: python-list at python.org
> > > #- Asunto: Extending python.
> > > #-
> > > #-
> > > #-
> > > #- Cheers.
> > > #-
> > > #- More questions.
> > > #- Let's say I'm trying to extend python with a c module. That
> > > #- module cannot
> > > #- be dynamically loaded (for reasons outside my control). I
> > > #- have to create a
> > > #- custom python executable (or more likely custom python library).
> > > #- How would I do that? Is there documentation on that
> > > #- somewhere? Most of
> > > #- what I've seen was for dynamic loading.
> > > #-
> > > #- 2nd Step:
> > > #- Let's say I'm doing it under windows, using Visual Studio. Is there
> > > #- anything I have to be aware of?
> > > #-
> > > #- 3rd Step:
> > > #- Let's say I don't have the source available. I do have the
> > > #- object files,
> > > #- the resulting libraries and the header files though.
> > > #-
> > > #- Greg
> > > #-
> > > #- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
> > > #- possible worlds,
> > > #-  and the pessimist fears this is true."
> > > #- - James Branch Cabell
> > > #-
> > > #-
> > > #- --
> > > #- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> > > #-
> > >
> >
>
>
>



From max at theslimmers.net  Sun Aug 15 04:35:48 2004
From: max at theslimmers.net (max)
Date: 15 Aug 2004 01:35:48 -0700
Subject: ADOdbapi converting all data to strings
Message-ID: <4f55e45a.0408150035.1298f0e9@posting.google.com>

I am trying to access a foxpro database, using odbc all is well except
that dates prior to 1970 are not returned as valid usable data, so
would like to use ADO. When I select data containing numbers (long or
float) they are converted and returned as unicode strings. Dates are
returned as datetime.date which is great. Is there any way to change
this behavior other than to explicitly change back all fields using
cursor.description information.

thanks,

max


From cjw at sympatico.ca  Mon Aug  9 20:29:59 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:29:59 -0400
Subject: Decorators
In-Reply-To: <10hfoqa9cj3e356@corp.supernews.com>
References: <%A8Rc.50217$Vm1.1280580@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<ad052e5c.0408071826.29f1bfb0@posting.google.com>
	<10hfoqa9cj3e356@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <3GURc.11274$Mq1.610387@news20.bellglobal.com>

Jeff Shannon wrote:
> Dan Bishop wrote:
> 
>> "Colin J. Williams" <cjw at sympatico.ca> wrote in message 
>> news:<%A8Rc.50217$Vm1.1280580 at news20.bellglobal.com>...
>>  
>>
>>> Christopher T. King suggested that "we're trying to kill too many 
>>> birds with one stone".
>>>
>>> http://groups.google.com/groups?q=stone+birds+group:comp.lang.python&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=Pine.LNX.4.44.0408050856390.31290-100000%40ccc9.wpi.edu&rnum=1 
>>>
>>>
>>> He goes on to suggest three needs which decorators serve.  Are these 
>>> the only purposes which are envisaged for decorators?
>>>   
>>
>>
>> If I understand correctly, they'd be useful for anything where you'd
>> now use the syntax
>>
>> function = decorator(function)
>>  
>>
> 
> Many of the uses I'm seeing proposed for decorators would fit better 
> into the current syntax:
> 
> def func( ... )
>    pass
> dosomething(func)
> 
> In other words, they're not specifically changing the behavior of the 
> function, but they are using the (name and/or address of the) function 
> in some other context.  The modification of the function (or method) 
> itself is an unnecessary side effect.
It seems to me that PEP 318 is intended to be transformational, as in 
Dan Bishop's examples.

The purpose is to flag the transformation at the head of the function 
declaration, ie. to give notice to the reader that the function is not 
what it seems to be.

One of the issues is whether the flagging should occur before or after
the function signature.  I can see some merit in the flagging and feel
that it better after the signature, where the function name is, in a 
sense known.

Another issue is whether a single character or a keyword is used to
flag the 'decorator'.  One post suggested that the pie would be better 
used as a replacement for self.

There is also the question of whether 'decorator', a term which is used
in everyday langage as indicating adornment, is the best choice for a
transformation.

> Whether this distinction matters is obviously a purely aesthetic matter, 
> since obviously the decorator can rebind the name to the original 
> function object instead of a wrapping-function object.  But still, it 
> does suggest that this concept is indeed being put to multiple 
> orthogonal purposes.
> Jeff Shannon
> Technician/Programmer
> Credit International
> 
Colin W.



From gloonie at earthlink.net  Sat Aug 14 15:51:25 2004
From: gloonie at earthlink.net (Glenn R Williams)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 19:51:25 GMT
Subject: shelve/bsddb broken in Python 2.3.3 (SuSe 9.1)?
Message-ID: <13uTc.20255$nx2.9301@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>

Has anybody gotten shelve to work under SuSE 9.1? 

I have SuSe 9.1, Python 2.3.3.85, db 4.2.52, and bsddb3-4.2.4. 

When I try to create a shelve, I get errors galore, Here's the traceback:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<pyshell#17>", line 1, in -toplevel-
    d=shelve.open('mydbm',flag='c')
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/shelve.py", line 231, in open
    return DbfilenameShelf(filename, flag, protocol, writeback, binary)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/shelve.py", line 212, in __init__
    Shelf.__init__(self, anydbm.open(filename, flag), protocol, writeback,
binary)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/anydbm.py", line 83, in open
    return mod.open(file, flag, mode)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/dbhash.py", line 16, in open
    return bsddb.hashopen(file, flag, mode)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/bsddb/__init__.py", line 192, in hashopen
    d.open(file, db.DB_HASH, flags, mode)
DBError: (38, 'Function not implemented -- process-private: unable to
initialize environment lock: Function not implemented')'

TIA,

Glenn
-- 
Glenn R Williams


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Thu Aug  5 18:32:16 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 22:32:16 GMT
Subject: Decorator syntax
References: <mailman.1173.1091670172.5135.python-list@python.org><38ednYT1NLz1P4zcRVn-uA@powergate.ca><JEiQc.16955$_25.574@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<mailman.1182.1091694251.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <QzyQc.1782$KZ2.535@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"Andrew Bennetts" <andrew-pythonlist at puzzling.org> wrote in message
news:mailman.1182.1091694251.5135.python-list at python.org...
> On Thu, Aug 05, 2004 at 04:25:13AM +0000, Paul McGuire wrote:
> [...]
> >
> > I fear that $, ^ and ~ are just around the corner.
>
> No need to fear: ^ and ~ are already there.
>
> >>> ~1
> -2
> >>> 1^2
> 3
>
> -Andrew.
>

Ooops, duh!  I guess I meant "$ and ?".

As this discussion wears on (and on...), there are several comments to the
effect of "let's save @ for something really important, and not waste it on
decorators."  Personally, I've enjoyed the clean look of Python source that
isn't splattered with special @'s and $'s.  I *don't* want to save @ for
something important, I'd prefer to see it kept out of the syntax altogether,
along with $.  (Oddly, I don't find ? near as ugly, but I wouldn't suggest
it as an alternative to @ as a decorator-introducer.)

I don't see this as merely a personal style choice either, as in "if you
don't like @'s, don't use @'s" - it seems to me that the emergence of a
decorator syntax means that I'll at some point have to use them to replace
the deprecated staticmethod and classmethod keywords.

@ and $ evoke the old days of job control commands and all-caps coding in
Cobol and FORTRAN - anyone care for code like:

@SYNCHRONIZED
DEF UPDATE_COUNT(SELF):
    SELF.COUNT = SELF.COUNT + 1

It seems to me that historically Python has eschewed using special
characters in other cases.  For instance, rather than mark instance methods
of a class with some magic character (such as '>', say), they contain an
explicit 'self' argument (whether this is good or ill is secondary - it IS
what Python does).  There is no special use of '^' as a shortcut for
'return' (as in Smalltalk's ubiquitous "^self") - one writes "return self".

Please reconsider the "def f() [classmethod]:" construct.  Instead of
invoking a special punctuation character, it uses context and placement,
with familiar old []'s, to infuse the declaration of a function with special
characteristics.  If this causes def lines to run longer than one line,
perhaps the same rule that allows an unmatched "(" to carry over multiple
lines without requiring "\" continuation markers could be used for unmatched
"["s, as in:

def f() [ staticmethod,
    synchronized,
    alphabetized,
    supersized,
    returns('d') ]:


"If I'd wanted mucilage, I'dve ordered mucilage." - Humphrey Bogart, "All
Through the Night"
If I'd wanted to write in Java, I'dve written in Java.

Keep Python Beautiful.
-- Paul





From adurdin at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 06:11:18 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:11:18 +1000
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <4124724C.8040001@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<4124724C.8040001@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a04081903113b368906@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:26:36 +0100, Robin Becker <robin at reportlab.com> wrote:
> 
> so far with a count of 74 the average is 35.72

Well, let me lower that just a tad: I'm 24.


From http  Thu Aug 26 17:12:28 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 14:12:28 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<mailman.2455.1093539321.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<gqudnRoo8q-Cg7PcRVn-tA@comcast.com>
	<7xoekx4wit.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<mailman.2458.1093543085.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj5cs7.wqxd1s1ec69umN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xfz69oc1f.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj5eom.gbo9f512upip0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7x1xhtd2o3.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:
> Type declarations make me cringe, but if I *had* to have them then 'b as
> int' is the best syntax I could imagine for them offhand.

b:int worked ok in Pascal.


From M.Waack at gmx.de  Wed Aug 25 13:19:06 2004
From: M.Waack at gmx.de (Mathias Waack)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:19:06 +0200
Subject: Capturing exceptions?
References: <pan.2004.08.25.17.12.17.521438@yahoo.com.au>
Message-ID: <a9uuv1-dtf.ln1@valpo.de>

Dfenestr8 wrote:
> What's the easiest way to capture the traceback from an exception,
> and write it to a file? Ideally, I'd like to be able to do
> something like:
> 
>>try:
>>main()
>>except:
>>write the traceback to a file

Have a look at the traceback module. 

Mathias


From ville at spammers.com  Fri Aug 27 11:06:16 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 18:06:16 +0300
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <du76574mxhz.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Kjetil" == Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no> writes:

    Kjetil> what do you think?  should I write a PEP?

No - you should see C:\Python23\Tools\Scripts\pindent.py (if you are
on windos) or snatch the file from the source distribution.

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 19 09:33:35 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:33:35 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed2040819034652e5089f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1829.1092785390.5135.python-list@python.org>	<65adnQrUKILiC7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>	<mailman.1834.1092791633.5135.python-list@python.org>	<m2vffgd6pu.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>	<mailman.1858.1092832530.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Michael.J.Fromberger-6AF702.10114718082004@localhost>	<mailman.1891.1092854353.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Michael.J.Fromberger-FF646E.17492318082004@localhost>	<mailman.1909.1092869465.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Michael.J.Fromberger-F6FD2B.21140718082004@localhost>	<cg1vp4$vgd$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040819034652e5089f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cg2a7d$vgd$5@sea.gmane.org>

Anthony Baxter wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 06:35:18 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>Unless of course you want a method to be private/semi-private.  How do
>>you feel about the way we can create/manipulate lists and dictionaries
>>using special (magical) syntax?  Why is that different (acceptable)?
> 
> 
> Look, name-mangling is horrid, and I don't think anyone's defending it. But
> at the same time, "name mangling is there" is not an argument for extending
> the horror to a whole new level. 
> 

I disagree.  It's an effective name-hiding technique.  Simple + 
Effective = Good.


> Name mangling only occurs when you create a method with two leading
> underscores, and no trailing ones. Your proposal would hit _every_ _single_
> 'def'. It's nasty, it's unpythonic, and there's approximately _zero_ chance of
> it ever going into the language. Having said that, it's perfectly feasible to do
> it with a metaclass, and if you want to use it in your code, please, feel free.
> 

It's not unpythonic, if by that you mean that it's unlike other python 
formalisms.  And it would *only* hit those defs that were attributes of 
classes derived from a new Object (capital 'O') class.




From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 12 23:15:12 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:15:12 -0400
Subject: decorator syntax polling suggestion
In-Reply-To: <tMWdnW5dbupIZobcRVn-qQ@comcast.com>
References: <d11dcfba.0408121252.7690a43a@posting.google.com>
	<tMWdnW5dbupIZobcRVn-qQ@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <CISdnRbssu7cr4HcRVn-ow@powergate.ca>

Doug Holton wrote:

> At the same time though, Guido has rejected all alternative syntaxes 
> that have been presented, so the decorators will likely stay as is.  

I believe until there is a "pronouncement", which hadn't happened
the last time I checked, there is still the possibility that
an alternate will be accepted.  Guido has expressed his opinion
on most of the alternative syntaxes, and it has been generally
negative, but opinions can change.

-Peter


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug  3 17:30:47 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 17:30:47 -0400
Subject: executing python programs as if they were on OS path (noob)
In-Reply-To: <ceouoh$a42$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
References: <ceoogb$7lm$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<EpOdneEAjIQgepLcRVn-sA@powergate.ca>
	<ceoq2d$8bh$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<k_2dnTdzxdPEbpLcRVn-rw@powergate.ca>
	<ceouoh$a42$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <q96dnTvq49-XmY3cRVn-pw@powergate.ca>

Darren Dale wrote:

> I'm on XP.

Ah, then it's easy.

If you've installed the standard distribution properly, it very likely
is already set up so that merely typing the name of the Python script
on the command line will search in the directories in PATH for the
matching script, and execute it.  In other words, just stop typing
"python" in front of the script name! :-)

And if you have the PATHEXT environment variable set up to contain
".py" then you won't even have to put .py on the end...

-Peter


From adonisv at DELETETHISTEXTearthlink.net  Tue Aug 17 21:03:00 2004
From: adonisv at DELETETHISTEXTearthlink.net (Adonis)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 01:03:00 GMT
Subject: what is wrong with this program?
References: <8f17f4bc.0408171623.4f055fb3@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <8VxUc.898$2L3.1@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>


"Ali" <alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8f17f4bc.0408171623.4f055fb3 at posting.google.com...
> The following program is supposed to show a menu but it isnt showing
> the drop down menus. It only shows the File and Help thing.
>
> from Tkinter import *
>
> def callback:
>     print "Alhumdulillah
>
> root = Tk()
>
> #create menu
>
> m = Menu(root)
> root.config(menu=m)
>
> filemenu = add_cascade(label="File", menu="filemenu")
> filemenu.add_command(label="New", command=callback)
> filemenu.add_separator()
> filemenu.add_command(label="Quit", command=callback)
>
> helpmenu = Menu(m)
> m.add_cascade(label="Help", menu="helpmenu")
> helpmenu.add_command(label="About", command=callback)
>
> root.mainloop()
>
> please help me fix it

Here is a working version, just compare to above should be quite
self explanitory, more help can be found on www.pythonware.com

---

from Tkinter import *

def callback():
    print "Alhumdulillah"

root = Tk()

#create menu

m = Menu(root)

filemenu = Menu(m)
filemenu.add_command(label="New", command=callback)
filemenu.add_separator()
filemenu.add_command(label="Quit", command=callback)
m.add_cascade(label="File", menu=filemenu)

helpmenu = Menu(m)
helpmenu.add_command(label="About", command=callback)
m.add_cascade(label="Help", menu=helpmenu)

root.config(menu=m)
root.mainloop()

---

Hope this helps.

Adonis




From eddie at holyrood.ed.ac.uk  Mon Aug 23 14:53:22 2004
From: eddie at holyrood.ed.ac.uk (Eddie Corns)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 18:53:22 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: telnet 'connection reset by peer'
References: <mailman.2213.1093280012.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgd95a$ftt$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>
	<mailman.2227.1093282794.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgdef2$g9j$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>

Donnal Walter <donnal at donnal.net> writes:

>Eddie Corns wrote:

>> Donnal Walter <donnal at donnal.net> writes:
>> 
>> 
>>>On Windows XP I am able to connect to a remote telnet server from the 
>>>command prompt using:
>> 
>> 
>>>telnet nnn.nnn.nnn.nnn 23
>> 
>> 
>>>where nnn.nnn.nnn.nnn is the IP address of the host. But using 
>>>telnetlib, this code returns the traceback that follows:
>> 
>> 
>>>import telnetlib
>>>host = 'nnn.nnn.nnn.nnn'
>>>tn = telnetlib.Telnet(host, 23)
>>>tn.read_until("Enter device name?")
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>>Traceback (most recent call last):
>>>  File "C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\mindwrapper\test\telnet.py", line 
>>>4, in ?
>>>    tn.read_until("Enter device name?")
>>>  File "C:\Python23\lib\telnetlib.py", line 316, in read_until
>>>    self.fill_rawq()
>>>  File "C:\Python23\lib\telnetlib.py", line 521, in fill_rawq
>>>    buf = self.sock.recv(50)
>>>socket.error: (10054, 'Connection reset by peer')
>> 
>> 
>>>Is there some parameter that I need to set in order to connect using the 
>>>telnetlib client? Thanks.
>> 
>> 
>> No, that should work, to a reasonably conforming telnet server.  Try doing
>> tn.set_debuglevel(2) before the read_until() to see what's coming back.

>Telnet(nnn.nn.nnn.nnn,23): recv 
>'\xff\xfb\x03\xff\xfd\x03\xff\xfb\x01\xff\xfd\x1
>7\xff\xfb\x00\xff\xfd\x00'
>Telnet(nnn.nn.nnn.nnn,23): IAC WILL 3
>Telnet(nnn.nn.nnn.nnn,23): IAC DO 3
>Telnet(nnn.nn.nnn.nnn,23): IAC WILL 1
>Telnet(nnn.nn.nnn.nnn,23): IAC DO 23
>Telnet(nnn.nn.nnn.nnn,23): IAC WILL 0
>Telnet(nnn.nn.nnn.nnn,23): IAC DO 0
>Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\mindwrapper\test\telnet.py", line 
>5, in ?
>     tn.read_until("Enter device name?")
>   File "C:\Python23\lib\telnetlib.py", line 316, in read_until
>     self.fill_rawq()
>   File "C:\Python23\lib\telnetlib.py", line 521, in fill_rawq
>     buf = self.sock.recv(50)
>socket.error: (10054, 'Connection reset by peer')

>Thank you for the suggestion. Can you help me interpret the feedback?

The IACs are commands embedded in the data stream.  This page:
http://www.scit.wlv.ac.uk/~jphb/comms/telnet.html looks like a decent overview
of how telnet works.  The purpose here is to negotiate what the capabilities
of the telnet session (eg echo).  Looking at the code in telnetlib, it seems
to always send back DONT or WONT for every option (ie refuses to support or
use any option requested).  It's possible the server is deciding that on this
basis it cannot proceed.  There doesn't seem to be a single place where all
the telnet options are described so I don't know what 0,1,3,23 actually are.
This page might help: http://home.swipnet.se/cfmd/rfc/dir/telnet.html
You might try using the tn.set_option_negotiation_callback() method to send
your own negotiation messages back if you think that what it is asking for is
harmless (you could snoop on your windows session, eg with ethereal, to see
what windows is sending back).

It seems a bit drastic to behave this way but I suppose it depends on what the
server is trying to do.  I wouldn't rule out it being a completely different
problem but nothing springs to mind.  It may be easier to experiment with
options using a raw socket, copy the code in telnetlib.

HTH,
Eddie


From psXdaXsilva at esotericaX.ptX  Fri Aug 20 20:58:41 2004
From: psXdaXsilva at esotericaX.ptX (Paulo da Silva)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 01:58:41 +0100
Subject: "Socket" files?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2080.1093039543.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <1093035812.83612@jubilee.esoterica.pt>
	<mailman.2080.1093039543.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1093050207.111029@iceman.esoterica.pt>

Marcos Dione wrote:
...

> 
>     they don't start w/ =; that's just ls being verbose. try 'ls -1'.
> 
>     you can create them with os.mkfifo. see lib doc, section 6.1.4.

This seems to work. At least ls gives the same result.
Thank you.


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 09:30:38 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:30:38 +0200
Subject: python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
References: <mailman.2274.1093330945.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<3l3pi0pgmgu0uir1ucnj0rlfo355c6i5cp@4ax.com>
	<8ab0589d.0408251103.13ddda04@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1gj4tmz.1pbcdea1bux1ykN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Brett C. <brett at python.org> wrote:

> Obviously this is not hard and fast

It _IS_ quite hard, but _definitely_ not fast...;-)


Alex


From andre.roberge at ns.sympatico.ca  Mon Aug 16 10:15:22 2004
From: andre.roberge at ns.sympatico.ca (Andr? Roberge)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 07:15:22 -0700
Subject: Newbie question about Tkinter
Message-ID: <f06d8508.0408160615.6f0fce93@posting.google.com>

The following program (Python 2.3, under Windows XP)
===
import Tkinter as Tk
A = Tk.Tk()
A.title("1")
A.mainloop()
B = Tk.Tk()
B.title("2")
B.mainloop()
===
opens window A and waits for it to be closed before opening window B.
However, the following opens both windows "simultaneously".  I tought
it would give the same result as the one above... I am confused.
====
import Tkinter as Tk
A = Tk.Tk()
A.title("1")
B = Tk.Tk()
B.title("2")
A.mainloop()
B.mainloop()
====
Anyone can explain or give a pointer to the answer.
Andr?


From sizelji at insightbb.com  Wed Aug 25 12:49:08 2004
From: sizelji at insightbb.com (Jim Sizelove)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:49:08 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2278.1093346467.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<mailman.2278.1093346467.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <7q3Xc.66491$mD.7238@attbi_s02>

> Lucas Raab wrote:
> 
>> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
>> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? 

I just turned 38 a few days ago.  Fell in love with programming in Basic 
on an Apple ][ when I was about 15.  My interests went in other 
directions during college (Philosophy, Religion, Peace and Global 
Studies), and then other directions in my career (desktop publishing, 
metal machining for the automotive industry).

I have gotten back into serious programming in the last five or six 
years, using VB in my work, but dabbling in C, C++, Lisp, Java, Perl. 
But Python has become my language of choice in the past several months.

Jim Sizelove


From python at elehack.net  Mon Aug  9 11:17:16 2004
From: python at elehack.net (Michael Ekstrand)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 10:17:16 -0500
Subject: Maybe, just maybe @decorator syntax is ok after all
In-Reply-To: <4116b725$1@nntp.zianet.com>
References: <du7n017ni6o.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>
	<b840abf4.0408080422.44fcf41c@posting.google.com>
	<4116b725$1@nntp.zianet.com>
Message-ID: <200408091017.16253.python@elehack.net>

On Sunday 08 August 2004 18:28, Mark Bottjer wrote:
> Having all this stuff before the *name* of the thing being defined is
> distracting. First tell me what it's *called*, then I'll decide if I
> want to know more or not.

Much of that can be accomplished stylistically in the way comments are 
written (granted, that doesn't accomplish much for existing code that 
doesn't follow such conventions). But, for example, in my C/C++ code, I 
always have comments before my functions like so:

/*
 * FooClass::foo()
 *
 * Fooifies the FooClass instance
 */
int FooClass::foo(int parm1, char parm2, char *spam_name)
...

Much of the problem (in any language, then) goes away. You still run 
into problems with existing code, though.

-Michael


From jsavard at excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid  Thu Aug 26 12:16:25 2004
From: jsavard at excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid (John Savard)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:16:25 GMT
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <412e0b7b.7894449@news.ecn.ab.ca>

On 25 Aug 2004 14:56:06 -0700, xah at xahlee.org (Xah Lee) wrote, in part:

>Did you know that throughout history there's this thing called cult?

We have heard of it.

>Don't think that i'm citing from
>some arcane books buried in libraries. These are real, and not
>difficult to find in real life.

Unlike the cult of Chthulhu, for example.

>Big brother organizations, such as the FBI, is keen on these and
>very interested in benefiting from social psychology themselves. They
>are recorded in books too. Ever wonder why the library houses so many
>cold volumes of paper? This is one contributing reason. You might be
>interested to verify that sometimes.

Ah, yes. If it weren't for the interest of the FBI in cults, our
libraries would be much smaller, or they would emphasize warm audio and
video recordings more.

>Surely you have heard of Adolf Hitler
>and his atrocities of genocide?

Yes, you are rather safe in assuming that.

>I must alert you, that a single person
>couldn't commit such a crime. You see, even if you are superman, you
>can only kill few at a time.

Yes, despite claims at the Nuremberg trials, Hitler didn't run the
concentration camps as a one-man operation.

>You see, it is the people, people like
>you and me, who commit the killings willingly, by Hitler's
>teaching. You may say: "no, i won't ever do such stupid thing", well
>because you are very ignorant about social psychology. It is precisely
>innocent people like you and (not) me, who were lead by the radical
>leaders of supreme brain-washing abilities. The innocent mob were
>fervent in their leader's vision and beliefs to commit anything.

They did, though, have to select from the German people those who would
operate the concentration camps.

As for the masses, it was enough that they were afraid to try to do
anything to stop it.

>How can we prevent heinous cults then? Stop bending truths. Education
>and rationalism. I'm starting my own cult to exterminate morons on
>this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl.

You are not providing any validation for your claim that these things
are so dangerous that the use of deadly force is justified or necessary.

John Savard
http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Thu Aug 26 06:22:53 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:22:53 +1000
Subject: cookie
Message-ID: <1093515773.412db9fdf3b96@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

i am printing a simple cookie, but instead of printing
um=name:blah&access:admin&exp:2312390.909

its printing
um="name:blah&access:admin&exp:2312390.909"

why the quotes?

i am creating the cookie as follows:
data = "user:" + username + "&access:" + access + "&expiry:" + str(expTime)
cookie_digest = hmac.new(key, data).digest()
cookie = Cookie.SimpleCookie()
cookie_data = data + "&digest:" + cookie_digest
cookie["um_cookie"] = cookie_data
cookie["um_cookie"]["path"] = "/~abrar1/hons/interface/admin/"
print cookie

thanks
cheers



----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From wweston at att.net  Wed Aug  4 14:22:09 2004
From: wweston at att.net (wes weston)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 18:22:09 GMT
Subject: I got it! How to force a single number to be a tuple
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1140.1091637138.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1140.1091637138.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <lP9Qc.386051$Gx4.375027@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>

Jinming Xu wrote:
> Sorry for the previous message. It's really a simple question and I have 
> solved it myself.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jinming
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Folks,
> 
> I have a number sequence, which is put into a tuple like this:
> 
> y=2, 3.0, 4.5
> 
> I can manipulate the sequence as a tuple when it has more than 1 number. 
> But when the sequence has only 1 number, like
> 
> y=2
> 
> I have trouble to manipulate it as a tuple.  I guess there must be a way 
> to forece a single number to be a tuple. Could anyone please tell me that?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jinming
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Discover the best of the best at MSN Luxury Living. http://lexus.msn.com/
> 
Jinming,

 >>> t = (1)
 >>> t
1
 >>> t = (1,)
 >>> t
(1,)
 >>>
wes



From jacobsmail at postmark.net  Mon Aug 23 19:52:07 2004
From: jacobsmail at postmark.net (Jacob H)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 16:52:07 -0700
Subject: Getting at the bits of a 32-bit integer
Message-ID: <85b54e91.0408231552.75f85727@posting.google.com>

Hi there list,

I'm a beginning programmer, so please correct me if any of the
following assumptions are wrong.

Suppose I have the decimal number 255. Since integers in Python are 32
bits, it would look like this in binary:

00000000 00000000 00000000 11111111

There are plenty of unused bits to the left of the number itself. If I
wanted to use some of these bits as true/false flags, how would I go
about it? In Python, how do I write code that gets at the leftmost
byte, or the third bit from the left of the set of 32, or the
rightmost byte plus the bit to its left, etc...

Thanks in advance for any help on this. :)

Jacob


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Tue Aug 24 13:47:02 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:47:02 GMT
Subject: __name__ becoming read-write?
References: <mailman.2211.1093279236.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<3b8ki0tlphodtt8ge8an274qp78ihp1i3n@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2223.1093282711.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ultki0h81hl8fmgd452tqsfqihv6hpvege@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2261.1093321637.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<8cdmi0dipgk5192li1p8mm2n1hls2hs7rl@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2279.1093354919.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7rhmi0d7cdg9r6ljvilgkep30tckl24nai@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2283.1093361193.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <6qtmi09lkbult2glmatio8cchunoiu25pk@4ax.com>

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 01:26:30 +1000, Anthony Baxter
<anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:00:35 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
>> But all at a cost.  I would be comforted to hear you say something
>> about the costs you perceive.  If you present it is all just a win,
>> it becomes too easy to challenge your assessment. So easy, that even
>> someone like myself can pull it off, at least to an extent - and at
>> least in my own judgement.
>
>_Any_ new feature has a cost - whether it is in the additional
>training needed, the potential for truly horrendous hacks, the
>backwards-incompatibility, or whatever else.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

>
>The additional training issue:
>    One of my internal measures for evaluating new decorator syntax
>options is that it be *obvious* that "this is something new". The
>various ideas of "doing something wacky with a list" or "a magic
>'decorate()' function" fail this test, for me. They're not obviously
>doing something new.

Or else, "this is something deep", and "we are violating the normal
rules of expressiveness, and know it".  

One argument presented with some vehemence against the pre-alpha2
syntax and in support of the new approach is that the old represented
unacceptable "action at a distance".  

But isn't that inherent in a transformation.  A trivial sense of
action at a distance might be solved with the new syntax.  Replaced by
a more profound sense of action at a distance.  Knowing that *my*
saying these kinds of things carries an implicit assertion that a
non-technical impression is valid.  Or worth hearing, anyway. 

The best precedence some of us find for all this  is __metaclass__. 

It spells "deep", it spells "on guard, rolled my own", it spells
"action at a distance" (where and what 'M' - the metaclass -  is, is
not something revelaed in the declaration itself) 

Again, that is a non-technical assessment.  Python as language, in the
more general sense of language.

But none of this is where we are very far off from one another,
anyway.  

>From the wioki list as it stands, I'm an A1 guy, after all.

>    Following on from that, the new feature should be explainable in
>the context of existing knowledge. 

For someone like myself, __something__ would do much of the explaining
in and of itself  There would be something visceral I understood,
before I understand anything else.

But I will let Paul continue to try to carry this torch.  It doesn't
look like he is getting too far, too fast.  

I always need to consider the fact that there are technical issues I
don't understand that override the the intuitive, and language, issues
I beleive that I do.  Certainly that seems to be your position on
__something__ inside the fucntion def. It sounds to my ears
unnecessarily, almost arbitrarily, purist.  But in the end this is not
something I am in a position to argue.  

>The before-def decorator syntax is

Without going on, I would say that I don't think *you* understand some
the depth of the problem here.  There is actually not yet a way to
talk about the mechanism which you are calling decorator syntax
because  of the fact that the lack of consensus runs that deep. Some
feel it is a misnomer on technical grounds and others consider it a
misnomer on the basis of being unexpressive and uninformative.  To
discuss "decorator syntax" is a concession. To meet on an even playing
field, we can only discuss The Mechanism.

Art



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 12:50:33 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 02:50:33 +1000
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
In-Reply-To: <_d6Tc.23589$Jp6.3458@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<Uf6dnb0hhtx1ToHcRVn-vg@powergate.ca>
	<_d6Tc.23589$Jp6.3458@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204081309504cc6276e@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:44:42 GMT, CptPicard <jpmorichon at earthlink.net> wrote:
> I noticed too that, amazingly, a lot of programmers know about Perl but not
> Python.

A hell of a lot of the Perl programmers I know have never really programmed
in anything else in the same area. If my choices were Perl, Pascal, or C, I'd
probably choose Perl, too. Indeed, I did, for a while. "I chose
something else".

Anthony


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Tue Aug 10 16:20:16 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:20:16 -0400
Subject: Prothon is switching to the .NET platform
In-Reply-To: <10hiaed6dj22283@news.supernews.com>
References: <000401c47b59$32539220$0d01a8c0@MarkVaio> 
	<mailman.1257.1091769173.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061247130.22947-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<10h7lb21dhbuc12@news.supernews.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061533250.25906-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<10h7rittck6ct75@news.supernews.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408101527020.9982-100000@ccc2.wpi.edu>
	<10hiaed6dj22283@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408101605470.11672-100000@ccc2.wpi.edu>

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, John Roth wrote:

> "Christopher T King" <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote in message
> news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0408101527020.9982-100000 at ccc2.wpi.edu...
> > On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, John Roth wrote:
> >
> > > The place where this gets really ugly is inserting functions
> > > into the instances. They have to be created at the module
> > > level, and then inserted into the instance by a module level
> > > function (somewhat similar to the way classmethod,
> > > staticmethod and property work).
> >
> > Oh, I wouldn't even attempt that until Python supported
> > "def object.method():" syntax (like Prothon does).
> 
> It actually works quite nicely.

Oh, I know you can do it in standard Python, but like you say, it's ugly ;)

> Your suggested syntax would be a definite plus, but I'm not holding my
> breath until there are a number of people using some variety of
> prototype package in Python. It's a classic chicken and egg problem.
> 
> On the other hand, it could simply be waiting on someone writing a PEP
> and giving some believable use cases for wanting to insert random
> methods into instances.

I thought there was already a PEP for it, but a quick scan reveals none.  
I know it's been brought up before, though.

> I'm not familiar with your system,

Basically, derive(foo) returns a new object whose __getattr__ references 
foo.  A side effect of this is that you can subclass derive for great 
justice.

> but there's no particular difficulty inserting methods into either a
> class or an instance. You just have to know the correct way to wrap it.
> 
> To put it into an instance, you have to wrap it in new.instancemethod.

Some of us are just too darn lazy to do that ;)



From kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no  Fri Aug 27 08:04:13 2004
From: kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Torgrim Homme)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:04:13 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1rr7pseqiq.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>

[Michael Sparks]:
>
>   Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote:
>   > what do you think?  should I write a PEP?
>   
>   I suspect you might have a hard time getting anywhere with this ;)

well, in the previous discussions I've read, the proponents of braces
want them as an alternative to strict indentation.  that's not the
case here, so the code is still kept pythonic, IMO.

-- 
Kjetil T.


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 11:24:19 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 01:24:19 +1000
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <cfq1p1$bde$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <20040814153534.8AC171E4007@bag.python.org>	<D65D4928-EEBF-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>	<mailman.1687.1092584144.5135.python-list@python.org>	<frydnbvSiJeXF4LcRVn-oA@giganews.com>
	<cfo7cg$k7p$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed204081522014bb9c988@mail.gmail.com>
	<cfq1p1$bde$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204081608247149972d@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 06:20:18 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Python currently doesn't _care_ about the argument list, and the variable
> > names in it.
> >
> 
> One thought is, to preserve backwards compatability, this special
> behavior would only be invoked for subclasses of the new Object class.

How is this backwards compatible? If you'd introduced it at the same time
as object, _maybe_ you could argue that. But this isn't the case here.

> > Adding this sort of behaviour is nasty. How, for instance, would you handle
> > adding a method to a class at runtime? Do you poke into the newly added
> > method to make sure you get it right? Do you not do this?
> Same rules apply.  The Python system would dynamically determine the
> method's type when you add it (at runtime), so you'd need to make sure
> that the first parm name is correct in advance.

Really. And how would you implement this special casing in a way that
wasn't incredibly tricky to explain to users running across it? One of the
great things about Python is that if you need to, or you want to, you can
poke into the innards of the OO system and see how it works (particularly
since descriptors were added). This adds Perl-like levels of OO-hackery.
If that comment is unclear, I mean that when you poke into Perl's OO,
it becomes very clear, very quickly, that it's a hack.

> > What about for more complex decorators? Remember, staticmethod and
> > classmethod are the trivial cases that this feature addresses. How do you
> > handle the more complex ones?
> The point is that method type declarations are not needed, so decorators
> wouldn't be concerned with this.  Take them off the list of things
> decorators can do.

Huh? You proposed a hack to specify class and static methods, using a 
custom meta-class that pokes at the argument list of a function, and 
suddenly you've removed the need for decorators for this? Please - feel 
free to use your metaclass in your own code, but  don't think that this is 
in any way a solution that should be considered for "mainstream" python 
use. It's a hack - a neat hack and a nice example of some of the things
metaclasses can do[1], but it's not a valid "solution" for the problem that
decorators are meant to solve. Look, staticmethod and classmethod are
a tiny tiny fraction of the things that decorator will be used for. Looking 
at a large amount of Python code I've got here, I can see three examples
of classmethods (all alternate constructors) and no uses of staticmethod
at all.

Anthony

([1] and, I should note, one I was about to post until I saw your post <wink>)


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Mon Aug 23 11:36:06 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:36:06 GMT
Subject: __name__ becoming read-write?
References: <uutji0h87t24cb1nej03gdggs0hg6eno3l@4ax.com>
	<m3hdqtkiyj.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <2e3ki01bk5eev1diculqn3ipa5e1b46fdt@4ax.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:49:41 GMT, Michael Hudson <mwh at python.net>
wrote:

>Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> writes:
>
>> Did I hallucinate something about __name__ becoming read-write?
>
>For functions?  No, you didn't hallucinate that.
>
>> Not in alpha2.
>
>Indeed.  The changes were only checked in a couple of weeks ago.
>They'll be in alpha3.

Thanks for confirming I am not hullicinating.  This time, anyway.

My argument - obviously, I think - is that this as a stand-alone
change does enough to ease the pain of the current syntax, and is in
proportion to the problem.

The fact that some of think we are way, way out of proportion with the
direction now headed, having been previously established.

Art


From nid_oizo at yahoo.com_removethe_  Mon Aug 23 08:30:46 2004
From: nid_oizo at yahoo.com_removethe_ (Nicolas Fleury)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 08:30:46 -0400
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2193.1093256254.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408230004350.22879-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>	<mailman.2175.1093233838.5135.python-list@python.org>	<q9OdnRDkR-VsMbTcRVn-pw@lmi.net>	<e69d3ed204082302035e4091ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.2193.1093256254.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <KqlWc.54712$F85.1167861@wagner.videotron.net>

Roman Suzi wrote:
> This surprises me. And this doen't surprise:
> 
> using:
>      staticmethod; synchronized; memoize
> def bar(foo):
>      "To colon or not to colon? Def is the question."
>      pass

+1
Nicolas


From jepler at unpythonic.net  Sun Aug  8 16:32:19 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 15:32:19 -0500
Subject: upper memory limit
In-Reply-To: <20040806123420.20214.qmail@web10703.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040806123420.20214.qmail@web10703.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040808203218.GA6582@unpythonic.net>

Not only does your OS have some per-process memory limit, but Python
uses the C library's realloc() to increase the size of certain items,
like lists.

Memory fragmentation (after many allocate/free cycles) means that the
largest block that can be allocated is almost always less than the total
amount of free address space.

Secondly, realloc() may temporarily require a larger amount of memory,
because it can relocate a block.  Even a reasonable implementation may
temporarily require new_size + old_size + overhead.  I've been told that
the realloc implementation on windows always relocates a block.

Below about 2GB, Python doesn't pose any relevant constraints on object
size.  However, Python uses "int" to store the "number of items in the
variable part" of an object, which means that an item with a granularity
of 1 byte (byte string) can't be longer than 2 gigabytes, and an item
with granularity of 4 bytes (list object) can't contain more than 2
billion items.  (but this would be an 8GB list object, bigger than the
total address space of ILP32 machines like x86)

Jeff
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From davidf at sjsoft.com  Fri Aug 20 10:02:31 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:02:31 +0200
Subject: Decorator keyword options
In-Reply-To: <7knVc.4599$Jn5.3074@fe1.texas.rr.com>
References: <7knVc.4599$Jn5.3074@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <cg509s$40m$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

Paul McGuire wrote:
> Thanks to everyone who has voted so far - please keep them coming!  Lurkers,
> this means you!
> 
> In the interests of saving time, I propose that an additional thread start
> soon, to determine choices for a decorator keyword, in the event that our
> selected syntax requires one.  Please visit the PythonDecorators Wiki page,
> and navigate to section 6.1 Indicators (or follow this link
> http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators#head-61f608dbce6ba75b2317d7825d8529997f56fc9e )
> (not sure how reliable this is?)  I have started numbering the options in
> preparation for another voting thread, if you have other proposals, please
> include them on this Wiki page, along with your +/0/- commentary.
> 

Good plan. If anyone likes "wrap" they could add it to the Wiki with 
something akin to the description of transform

David


From duncan.booth at invalid.invalid  Tue Aug 17 08:04:11 2004
From: duncan.booth at invalid.invalid (Duncan Booth)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 12:04:11 GMT
Subject: Newbie 1st program
References: <f9d01b73.0408161010.1ba5e9e4@posting.google.com>
	<f8097096.0408170233.5a40706d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Xns95487B9C7E472duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>

nicksjacobson at yahoo.com (Nick Jacobson) wrote in 
news:f8097096.0408170233.5a40706d at posting.google.com:

> Great job!  Here's something to clean up the code a bit:
> 
> You can change:
> 
><<
<long code snipped>
>>>
> 
> to:
> 
><<
>             ary = ["Restrict your search to a specific site",
> "army.mil", "usmc.mil", "af.mil", "navy.mil", "uscg.mil",
> "SYColeman.com", "l3com.com", "fedbizopps.gov", "defenselink.mil"]
>             d = dict(zip(range(10), ary))
>             i = event.GetInt()
>             if i in range(10):
>                  t2.Clear()
>                  t2.SetValue(d[i])
>                  t2.SetEditable(bool(i))
>>>
> 
Converting the list to a dict seems pointless. Likewise the weird range 
test seems a lot of effort to no gain, oh, and you got the sense of the 
SetEditable backwards:

            ary = ["Restrict your search to a specific site",
"army.mil", "usmc.mil", "af.mil", "navy.mil", "uscg.mil",
"SYColeman.com", "l3com.com", "fedbizopps.gov", "defenselink.mil"]

            i = event.GetInt()
            if 0 <= i < len(ary):
                 t2.Clear()
                 t2.SetValue(ary[i])
                 t2.SetEditable(i != 0)


From mwh at python.net  Fri Aug 27 08:20:03 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:20:03 GMT
Subject: Converting hex string to an integer
References: <412d9e18$0$22821$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>
	<cgkkki$774$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
	<sqmdnY4BTq5JR7DcRVn-qQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <m3vff4g4cs.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> writes:

> Rick Holbert wrote:
> > Derek Fountain wrote:
> >>Given the character string "0x00A1B2C3" arriving at sys.argv[1] how do I
> >>convert that to an integer which I can do some math on?
> > i = eval(sys.argv[1])
> 
> That's dangerous advice to a newbie if not qualified carefully.
> 
> Derek, "eval" could be the source of serious security problems
> if you don't understand its power.  Specifically it should
> almost never be used for input that comes from a user or
> via the command line.  There is pretty much always another
> and much better way to do the simple stuff like conversions
> than to use eval.
> 
> For example, imagine if a malicious could feed your program this:
> 
> (on the Linux command line)
> 
>    $ myscript "__import_('os').system('rm -rf /')"

Well, in this situation, he could just type

$ rm -rf /

But, yes.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  I'm not particularly fond of singing GSTQ because she stands for
  some things I don't, but it's not really worth letting politics
  getting in the way of a good bawling.     -- Dan Sheppard, ucam.chat


From __peter__ at web.de  Mon Aug 30 10:35:03 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:35:03 +0200
Subject: initializing mutable class attributes
References: <J4zYc.102357$UTP.98636@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
Message-ID: <cgvdun$1mb$01$1@news.t-online.com>

Dan Perl wrote:

> something like this:
>     class Child (Father):
>         def __init__(self):
>             Father.__init__(self)
>             self.attr3=[ ]
> 
> I find this even more awkward because many people will forget to do it.

You have to call base-class-__init__() in every non-trivial inheritance
scheme. Should you forget it, pychecker is always there to remind you

<sloppy-code>
class X:
    def __init__(self):
        self.x = 2

class Y(X):
    pass

class Z(Y):
    def __init__(self):
        pass
</sloppy-code> 

And here's what pychecker says:

$ pychecker t1.py
Processing t1...

Warnings...

t1.py:9: Base class (t1.Y) __init__() not called

Clear enough. 

Peter



From peter at semantico.com  Fri Aug 13 08:56:13 2004
From: peter at semantico.com (Peter Hickman)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:56:13 +0100
Subject: Help understanding Scheme's syntax, procedures and calls
In-Reply-To: <95f168b0.0408121215.f89c842@posting.google.com>
References: <95f168b0.0408120120.31433dc7@posting.google.com>
	<cffit6$shd$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>
	<95f168b0.0408121215.f89c842@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <411cba6f$0$9687$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk>

> Thanks for the help. It's not homework but from an old exam paper, but
> the girl's English isn't absolutely fluent and I'm looking for a
> simple way to explain the expressions and functions.

If there are points to be won for brevity then the answer is 'two functions (one 
with a helper) to compute factorials'


From grante at visi.com  Thu Aug 26 13:10:54 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 17:10:54 GMT
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<776e0325.0408260433.449660c8@posting.google.com>
	<412dfc1c$0$65599$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<86hdqpriww.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
Message-ID: <412e199e$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-26, Randal L. Schwartz <merlyn at stonehenge.com> wrote:
> *** post for FREE via your newsreader at post.newsfeed.com ***
>
>>>>>> "Grant" == Grant Edwards <grante at visi.com> writes:
>
>Grant>    "Guido said it, that settles it, but we're going to discuss
>Grant>     it endlessly and and vote on it using six or seven
>Grant>     different voting algorithms anyway.  Then we'll argue about
>Grant>     the voting algorithms."
>
> Are the voting algorithms indented consistently? That's a
> necessity, correct?

Of course, but are they consistently indented using tabs or
spaces?

> Surely, they have significant whitespace.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Gee, I feel kind of
                                  at               LIGHT in the head now,
                               visi.com            knowing I can't make my
                                                   satellite dish PAYMENTS!


From fredrik at pythonware.com  Thu Aug 19 13:01:26 2004
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:01:26 +0200
Subject: Please help -- Tkinter Scale widget with DoubleVar is acting
	weird
References: <4124C828.5080106@noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <cg2ma0$3uq$1@sea.gmane.org>

Jared Cohen wrote:

> Hi all. I'm currently using a Tkinter Scale widget which uses a
> DoubleVar as its control variable. I then use the "trace_variable('w',
> callback)" method to invoke a callback whenever the DoubleVar changes.
>
> The problem is this: the callback is triggered when the slider moves (as
> it should), but it's also triggered when I just HOVER the mouse over the
> slider without clicking! Somehow or other, it must think that the
> control variable is being changed, even though it isn't. I *think* that
> this problem is related to the loss of precision that DoubleVars can
> have, but I'm not really sure. Has anyone else experienced this problem?
> How can I fix this?

you could use a "command" callback instead of a traced variable:

import sys, Tkinter, types

root = Tkinter.Tk()

def callback(value):
    print float(value)

slider = Tkinter.Scale(root,
                       from_ = 0.0,
                       to = 1.0,
                       resolution = 0.1,
                       command = callback,
                       orient   = 'horizontal')
slider.grid(sticky='ew')

root.mainloop()

(use slider.get() to get the current value from outside the callback,
and slider.set(x) to set it).

</F> 





From unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom  Sat Aug  7 03:58:07 2004
From: unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom (Michel Claveau - abstraction méta-galactique non triviale en fuite perpétuelle.)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 09:58:07 +0200
Subject: unicode to ascii converting
References: <mailman.1296.1091813051.5135.python-list@python.org><1091815856.527127@news.commspeed.net><mailman.1301.1091816463.5135.python-list@python.org><s9z8ycs9l07.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>
	<mailman.1309.1091820963.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cf223m$7ha$1@news-reader4.wanadoo.fr>

Hi !

Try :

        aa = u"?"
        aa.encode("ascii","ignore")







From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 03:08:59 2004
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 00:08:59 -0700
Subject: Weave - inline C
References: <6f402501.0408232319.5967f0d@posting.google.com>
	<cgfqpg$kvt$1@news1.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <6f402501.0408252308.7ac81e97@posting.google.com>

Robert Kern <rkern at ucsd.edu> wrote in message news:<cgfqpg$kvt$1 at news1.ucsd.edu>...
> Michael Foord wrote:
> > Has anyone had success using weave with gcc for windows (standard
> > windows distribution python)?
> > 
> > I have my distutils setup to use gcc (via mingw32) - which it does
> > fine. I've compiled and installed various modules with it. Weave
> > itself installs fine, picking up the settings from distutils.
> > 
> > However it has it's own version of distutils 'scipy_distutils' that it
> > uses to compile the C it is given - which complains that it can't find
> > msvcc.... The documentation included (which is actually for the 0.2
> > version) gives no hints and I wondered if anyone had any success in
> > using it ?
> 
> Use compiler='gcc' as a keyword argument for weave.inline(), etc.
> 

That works fine on the tests I've done so far !

Thanks for your help.

Fuzzy

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html

> Yes, the documentation is fantastically out of date.
> 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > 
> > Fuzzy


From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Aug  3 13:59:54 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 19:59:54 +0200
Subject: how to do proper subclassing?
References: <mailman.1095.1091552353.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ceojqr$9sk$01$1@news.t-online.com>

Jonas Koelker wrote:

> Hello there.
> 
> I'm new to this list (/me welcomes himself).
> 
> anyways, I'm having doubts about how to subclass
> properly. The big picture is that I want to handle
> permutations. As we all know, two popular notation
> forms exist: products of disjoint cycles ("(0 1 3)(2
> 4)") and 2*length matrices with the identity
> permutation as the first line ([0 1 2 3 4] over [1 3 4
> 0 2]). I find the latter more appropriate, since it's
> easy to store as a list (one can skip the first line,
> assuming it's _always_ the identity).
> 
> However, I want the permutation to act like a list, in
> all those cases where I don't override the operations.
> For example, assuming permfooation is the above
> permutation [1 3 4 0 2], permfooation[1:3] should
> return [3,4]. How is this done? Do I have to actually
> implement a slice-mechanism in the permutation class?

You already answered your question in the subject - you want a subclass of
list:

>>> class Perm(list):
...     def __init__(self, n):
...             list.__init__(self, range(n))
...     def __call__(self, i, k):
...             self[i], self[k] = self[k], self[i]
...             return self
...
>>> p = Perm(5)
>>> p
[0, 1, 2, 3, 4]
>>> p(0,4)(2,4)(0,1)(2,3)(1,2)
[1, 3, 4, 0, 2]
>>> p[1:2]
[3]
>>> p[1:3]
[3, 4]

Just in case you need it later, there is a special method for every
operator, e. g. __getitem__() for obj[sliceOrIndex], __mul__() for
multiplication etc. Write one for the class in question and it will grow
the corresponding operation. In the above example I have made the class
"callable" (i. e. its instances can behave like a function) by adding the
__call__() method. By returning self I ensure that you can chain these
calls. As you may know, this is not the way the list.sort() method behaves,
so this is probably bad style for methods mutating the original instance. 

As to __getitem__(), I think the easiest way to see what happens inside is
provided by the following snippet:

>>> class C:
...     def __getitem__(self, i):
...             return i
...
>>> C()[1]
1
>>> C()[1:2]
slice(1, 2, None)
>>> C()[1:2:3]
slice(1, 2, 3)

I. e. a typical minimal __getitem__() has to test whether it receives a
slice or an integer using isinstance().

Peter



From jerf at jerf.org  Mon Aug 23 20:39:01 2004
From: jerf at jerf.org (Jeremy Bowers)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 00:39:01 GMT
Subject: Why are strings immutable?
References: <chzVc.288437$a24.71659@attbi_s03>
	<ibednRPmoMofVbvcRVn-oA@powergate.ca>
	<O%rWc.171256$8_6.61890@attbi_s04> <HBF.20040823ubxc@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.23.20.38.49.463408@jerf.org>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 22:11:36 +0200, Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:

> If you are doing a lot of that with the string, does it need to be a
> single string?  I've just speeded up a program significantly by changing
>   string_var = ...
>   string_var += ...
>   string_var += ...
>   ...
> to
>   array_var = ['string']
>   array_var.append(...)
>   array_var.append(...)
>   ...
>   result = "".join(array_var)
> (Well, because of how the data was structured I actually used a dict which
> was unpacked to a list comprehension which was joined to a string, but it
> still speeded things up.)

For PyDS, I contributed a class that does that and offers a += interface,
so it is easy to drop in without too much conversion work. It is very
simple.

In general, you should not use this and you should do it "right" the first
time, but for existing code this can be a convenient make-do.

Replace your initial "myString = ''" with "myString = StringCollector()",
and depending on how you use this you may not need to change the final
use. Otherwise, call "str()" on your StringCollector.

(Note the encoding in iadd; I just added the locale call without testing
it, and you may want to switch it; PyDS actually uses its own system.)

-----------------------------

import locale
class StringCollector:

        def __init__(self, string='', encoding = None):
                self.buffer = StringIO()
                if string: self += string
                if encoding in None:
                        self.encoding = locale.getpreferredencoding()
                else:
                        self.encoding = encoding
        
        def __iadd__(self, other):
                if type(string) == types.UnicodeType:
                        self.buffer.write(other.encode(self.encoding))
                else:
                        self.buffer.write(other)
                return self

        def __repr__(self):
                return '<StringCollector>'

        def __str__(self):
                return self.buffer.getvalue()



From dody at postaccesslite.com  Wed Aug 25 07:13:06 2004
From: dody at postaccesslite.com (dody)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 18:13:06 +0700
Subject: ASPN Python cookbook in a chm
Message-ID: <10229674.20040825181306@postaccesslite.com>


ASPN Python cookbook in a .chm file
===================================

last updated: 25 August 2004

http://miaw.tcom.ou.edu/~dody/aspnpython.chm

--
 dody suria wijaya




From pwilkinson at videotron.ca  Mon Aug  9 10:39:53 2004
From: pwilkinson at videotron.ca (Peter Wilkinson)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 10:39:53 -0400
Subject: upper memory limit
In-Reply-To: <3hdbh0d3af4gjbj6psec10nahls0u3nuu3@4ax.com>
References: <mailman.1328.1091861642.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<3hdbh0d3af4gjbj6psec10nahls0u3nuu3@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040809103431.01b5fe30@pop.videotron.ca>

Why do you say that  single process is limited to 2 Gig?  I believe that on 
windows a single process can run with to 32 bits addressed or 4 Gig of 
space. I have run R with over 2 Gig of memory.

Why would python be limited to 2 Gig (including overhead)? I don't see that 
python should be any different.

Peter

At 01:16 AM 8/8/2004, Tim Roberts wrote:
>Leandro <leandro_ricardo at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >There is an upper memory limit in Python?
> >I have 2GB RAM and 2 processors Xeon 2.4 - (Windows XP), but I just can use
> >1.2G of memory, after this python crashes.
> >Does someone know if python has some memory limit?
>
>You might be surprised to learn that the amount of memory available to a
>single process is (almost) completely unrelated to the amount of physical
>memory in the machine.  Windows is a virtual memory system.
>
>A single process in Windows is limited to 2GB of address space.  Part of
>that is occupied by the Python executable, your DLLs, and the system DLLs.
>
>1.2GB seems a litle low, but it is not entirely unreasonable.
>--
>- Tim Roberts, timr at probo.com
>   Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
>--
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



From barnesc at engr.orst.edu  Tue Aug 10 03:46:21 2004
From: barnesc at engr.orst.edu (barnesc at engr.orst.edu)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 00:46:21 -0700
Subject: Simple hashcash implementation
Message-ID: <1092123981.41187d4d9aaeb@webmail.oregonstate.edu>


Hi!

Here's a simple hashcash implementation in Python.

28 lines of actual code.

Can be reduced to 17 lines for instructional purposes,
if you don't want clustering, and use xrange() instead
of irange().

I tried to make this as simple and elegant as possible.
Feel free to repost this code, if you can make the it
more simple.

I have made no attempt to optimize this code.

# ----------------------------------------------
# hashcash.py: Hashcash implementation
# ----------------------------------------------

"""
Hashcash is a "proof of work."

Example:

>>> import sha
>>> sha.new('denmark2890CF').hexdigest()
'000000cf89643370c24e413ec0886ab92bd7f6e8'

Here we have a 24-bit partial SHA collision against the zero string.

This proves to us that someone took the prefix 'denmark', and
tried about 2**24 different suffixes.  Thus we know that
someone has burnt around 2**24 CPU cycles on the prefix string
'denmark'.  Usually, 'denmark' will be a unique challenge string,
so old hashcash cannot be recycled.

For speed, this library takes the hash of the string 'denmark' before
doing the collision with the zero string.  Otherwise, it is identical
to the above example.

Library examples:

>>> import hashcash
>>> hashcash.make_token('Denmark', 22)
'59538D'
>>> hashcash.verify_token('Denmark', '59538D')
22
>>> t = hashcash.make_cluster('Denmark', 18)
>>> t
'BC48-D5A1-F8C2-27F0-9CC0-DD31-2F04-2052-835-FFF1-E319-0E91-A9D0-D359
-E996-70BA'
>>> hashcash.verify_cluster('Denmark', t)
18

Note that make_token() takes wildly varying amounts of CPU time.
The make_cluster() function concatenates 16 hashcash tokens to even
out the amount of CPU time spent.

"""

import sha, math, itertools

def trailing_zeros(n):
  """Number of trailing 0s in binary representation of integer n."""
  if n <= 0: return 0
  for i in itertools.count(0):
    if n & (1<<i): return i

def irange(n):
  """Implementation of xrange(n) that does not overflow."""
  i = 0
  while i < n:
    yield i; i += 1

def all_strings(charset='0123456789ABCDEF'):
  """Yields all strings in given character set, sorted by length."""
  m = len(charset)
  for n in itertools.count(0):
    for i in irange(m**n):
      yield ''.join([charset[(i//(m**j))%m] for j in xrange(n)])

def hash(s):
  """Hash function used by hashcash.  Returns an integer."""
  return int(sha.new(s).hexdigest(), 16)

def make_token(s, n, charset='0123456789ABCDEF'):
  """Makes hashcash token of value 'n' against basestring 's'."""
  h = sha.new(s).digest()
  for token in all_strings(charset):
    if trailing_zeros(hash(h + token)) >= n: return token

def verify_token(s, token):
  """Returns hashcash value of given token against basestring 's'."""
  return trailing_zeros(hash(sha.new(s).digest() + token))

def make_cluster(s, n, charset='0123456789ABCDEF'):
  """Makes hashcash cluster of value 'n' against basestring 's'."""
  return '-'.join([make_token(s+str(i),n-4,charset) for i in range(16)])

def verify_cluster(s, token):
  """Hashcash value of the given cluster against basestring 's'."""
  T = token.split('-')
  return min([verify_token(s+str(i), T[i]) for i in range(len(T))])+\
         int(math.log(len(T)) / math.log(2.0))


This document is in public domain (as are all of my past Usenet postings).

 - Connelly


From tzot at sil-tec.gr  Wed Aug 18 11:54:39 2004
From: tzot at sil-tec.gr (Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:54:39 +0300
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408180937570.32166-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1876.1092839779.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <iru6i0hq1n3p3m4cg9pe356jo4s282ddld@4ax.com>

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:36:09 -0500, rumours say that Skip Montanaro
<skip at pobox.com> might have written:

>
>    Christopher> I'm 19.  The only other Python programmer I know personally
>    Christopher> is 21.  Congrats on discovering Python at 14; back then I
>    Christopher> thought VB was a godsend. ;)

[skip]

>Whippersnapper...  At 14 I would have thought a computer was a godsend. ;-)
>
>(I'm 50, btw.)

Perhaps when the timbot was 14, *everything* was godsent (or so the
Bible describes things :)
-- 
TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best,
"Tssss!" --Brad Pitt as Achilles in unprecedented Ancient Greek


From lopexx at autograf.pl  Tue Aug 17 07:35:26 2004
From: lopexx at autograf.pl (lopex)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:35:26 +0200
Subject: Best programming language
In-Reply-To: <873c2ndizt.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>
References: <mailman.1718.1092639914.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cfpqlf$7sv$1@news.onet.pl>
	<mailman.1723.1092650117.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<873c2ndizt.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>
Message-ID: <cfsqfu$co3$1@news.onet.pl>

510046470588-0001 at t-online.de wrote:

> 
> the best language is of course Scheme 
> 


Another flamewar ?
should I claim Ruby is.. ?

Marcin Mielzynski


From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Aug 19 17:38:39 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 14:38:39 -0700
Subject: ANN: pyxe
Message-ID: <cg36kv$e7@odah37.prod.google.com>

Forgive me if this comes out odd, I'm testing the new
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python - it seems to
encourage top-posting and quoting the entire previous thread (although
I do seem to be able to cancel posts....)

Anyway, what sets this app apart from py2exe (or cx_Freeze,
BundleBuilder or McMillan Installer for that matter)?

Ah, it seems that this builds the interpreter as an .exe isntead of the
entire application, which is supplied in source .py form



From zathras at thwackety.com  Fri Aug 20 07:33:06 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:33:06 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <AugVc.4535$Jn5.4362@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408201156310.20263-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Paul McGuire wrote:

> "Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy)" <tdelaney at avaya.com> wrote in message
> news:mailman.1989.1092960560.5135.python-list at python.org...
> > I think a web page for tabulating votes would be better (see the
> > response to the previous vote on 3 syntaxes).
>
> I couldn't agree more, Tim, but time is short.

Time might be short, but don't forget timezone issues. Usenet takes time
to propogate postings, etc.

> BTW, where are all the votes for option "A"?  Where are all the people who
> hated it but now like it?

I think one of the problems is the vote might be viewed as "which
alternative to A1 do you like" rather than "which alternative, even
including A1, do you like" - personally I'd be very interested to see
the level of support for A1, _especially_ if it overwhelms support for
any other syntax...

Tallying the results of 22 votes now:

 > for i in `cat votes.txt |cut -d, -f1`; do echo $i; done|sort|uniq -c
      4 A1
     14 C1
      2 C2
      1 C4
      2 D1
      1 D2
      2 E1
      2 E2
      1 E4
      5 F
      1 H
      1 I
     23 J2
      3 K
      4 L

People who changed their votes from "J2 J2 A1" to "J2 J2 J2" I've
included as "J2 J2 A1" based on the question above.

Votes included minus email addresses below...

Regards,


Michael.

Votes included above:
J2 C1 J2, Andrew Durdin
C2 C2 C1, Ayose
C1 C1 E1, Ben
F F F, Bruno Desthuilliers
J2 L L, David Fraser
C1 D1 K, Egbert Bouwman
F F A1, Gerrit Muller
C1 D1 E1, Greg Ewing
C1 D2 J2, Greg Krohn
J2 J2 E2, Jeff Shannon
J2 J2 A1, Ksenia Marasanova
J2 J2 A1, Marc Boeren
I J2 H, Matteo Dell'Amico
J2 J2 C1, Michael Sparks
E4 J2 K, Nicolas Fleury
J2 J2 C1, Paul McGuire
J2 J2 E2, Peter Hansen
J2 J2 K, Peter Otten
C4 A1 J2, Roman Suzi
C1 C1 C1, Scott Gilbert
C1 C1 J2, Skip Montanaro
J2 L L, Steven Bethard



From flab at large.net  Fri Aug 20 01:47:40 2004
From: flab at large.net (flab ba)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:47:40 -0700
Subject: My only complaint about Python
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.20.05.47.36.399065@large.net>


I use Python for mission-critical enterprise level stuff, and I have to
say that on **Windows**,  I'd rather it be compiled with MSVC, and not
something like MingW or GCC.

Under no circumstances would I put something in production if it was using
Cygwin.

There is nothing to stop you from compiling Python yourself with the free
Visual C++ Toolkit. Instructions are here:

http://www.vrplumber.com/programming/mstoolkit/index.html
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-February/042595.html

When the 2005 Toolkit comes out, I have a sneaky suspicion that the
"Starter" pack will be good enough to compile Python - which will be
very cheap (maybe even as low as $50).

An important part of Python for Windows is Mark Hammond's Windows
extensions - I wonder if these rely on a very "windows-savy" compiler like
(Borland or VC++ )

-Flab

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:42:50 -0400, Darren Dale wrote:

> I love the language. I love the community. My only complaint is that 
> Python for Windows is built with Visual Studio.
> 
> It is too difficult to build python, or a module, from source. This is 
> what open source is all about, isnt it? I even have a copy of visual 
> studio, and I still cant build modules from source, because my academic 
> copy is version 7. As a scientist funded by the NSF, I feel compelled to 
> do all my work using free software (I feel compelled to use free 
> software, regardless). And I feel compelled to contribute to the 
> scientific capabilities of my favorite programming language. But this 
> compiler issue is a big (and seemingly unnecessary) impediment. Will the 
> BDFL ever split with Visual Studio?



From skip at pobox.com  Tue Aug 31 09:49:04 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 08:49:04 -0500
Subject: xmlrpclib
In-Reply-To: <413462a1$0$5242$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>
References: <413409c3$0$22823$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>
	<2hkd02-v7v.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<413462a1$0$5242$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <16692.33232.911647.298159@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Graeme> What I am trying to establish is if the server is asynchronous
    Graeme> i.e multi-threaded i.e what happens when 2 requests hit the
    Graeme> server at once?

You can write a multi-threaded server using xmlrpclib and SocketServer.  I
use one behind the Mojam and Musi-Cal websites.  Mine happens to start a new
thread for each request, but I suppose you could write one which uses a
thread pool model.

Skip


From noreply at python.org  Mon Aug 23 11:19:55 2004
From: noreply at python.org (Automatic Email Delivery Software)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:49:55 +0530
Subject: Message could not be delivered
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From nir1408 at ziaran.org  Thu Aug  5 06:36:57 2004
From: nir1408 at ziaran.org (ziaran)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 13:36:57 +0300
Subject: AVI I/O
In-Reply-To: <slrnch41vm.gf5.davecook@david-cooks-computer.local>
References: <slrnch3ms4.7mn.mordor@fly.srk.fer.hr>
	<slrnch41vm.gf5.davecook@david-cooks-computer.local>
Message-ID: <41120df2$1@news.bezeqint.net>

Hello,

I want to use Python for Image proccessing.
I need the following capabilities:

1. To be able to read and WRITE an AVI file frame by frame.
2. To be able to access each fram as a simple matrix.

I tried to search for that in google but could not find something 
intuitive and simple.

The matrices part is important since iamge processing is done through 
matrices manipulation.

MATLAB is an example of a tool with scripting capabilities in which you 
can do that in a simple way.

Is Python adequate for that?

Thanks,
Nir


From sjdevnull at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  9 02:36:11 2004
From: sjdevnull at yahoo.com (G. S. Hayes)
Date: 8 Aug 2004 23:36:11 -0700
Subject: decorators vs GIL
References: <96c2e938.0408081605.706f8ec7@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1372.1092017928.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <96c2e938.0408082236.7bcf3bf7@posting.google.com>

mudd at vex.net wrote in message news:<mailman.1372.1092017928.5135.python-list at python.org>...

> > That's not to say there aren't limited problem domains where threads

> > are the right answer, but as a general construct they're wildly

> > overused.  I'm frankly glad that Python doesn't encourage more of the

> > same.

> >

> 

> Is there anything else that Python doesn't do well that we should appreciate?



That wasn't really the point; the point was more to argue against the
viewpoint that work on language features like list comprehensions or
decorators is somehow less important than working on removing the GIL.
 Obviously in an ideal world you could implement every idea that came
along, but in the real world developers tend to work on problems that
affect them--and if you have a bunch of developers who rarely run into
problems with the GIL (because they're not often abusing threads) then
it's just not going to be a very high priority.  Rightly so, IMO,
since it only affects a very small percentage of well-designed
programs, so putting work into bigger problem areas (especially any
language features that genuinely improve development speed and
readability) gets a much higher payoff.



I wouldn't be against removing the GIL if an approach was found that
didn't adversely affect the common case; naive approaches to
fine-grained locking are often really bad for general case behavior,
but there are approaches that can mitigate this.  But I would be
against lobbying core language developers to take time off of other
projects to work on this one; it's definitely more of a "scratch an
itch" type problem` that can wait until someone feels motivated to do
it than a "suck it up because the community needs it" kind of thing.


From BruceWhoHKL at gawab.com  Sun Aug 22 21:34:26 2004
From: BruceWhoHKL at gawab.com (BruceKL WhoH)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 09:34:26 +0800
Subject: How to sort this kind of list easily?
Message-ID: <20040823013337.48E811E4002@bag.python.org>

Anthony Baxter:

	Oh,I didn't know that list.sort work like this. It's great. But what is 
decorate-sort-undecorate pattern ? Can you show me any helpful hints or hyperlinks?

======= 2004-08-20 18:38:05 Anthony Baxter wrote: =======

>On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:03:51 +0800, BruceKL WhoH <brucewhohkl at gawab.com> wrote:
>> Hi,all
>>      I have a list like [(id,string),...],for example:
>> 
>>      [(1,'xxxxx'),(7,'ppppp'),(4,'gggggg'),...]
>> 
>>          I want to sort this list according to the id of each element. After sorting,the list will become:
>> 
>>      [(1,'xxxxx'),(4,'gggggg'),(7,'ppppp')...]
>
>
>>>> l=[(1,'xxxxx'),(7,'ppppp'),(4,'gggggg'),(2,'ffff'),(12,'hhhhh')]
>>>> l.sort()
>>>> print l
>[(1, 'xxxxx'), (2, 'ffff'), (4, 'gggggg'), (7, 'ppppp'), (12, 'hhhhh')]
>
>list.sort sorts tuples by first argument, then second &c. If you want a
>custom sort order, look at the decorate-sort-undecorate pattern.
>
>Anthony
>-- 
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
			

????????BruceKL WhoH
????????BruceWhoHKL at gawab.com
??????????2004-08-23


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Thu Aug 26 22:12:48 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 02:12:48 GMT
Subject: Is it a bug (or a feature)?
References: <mailman.2348.1093434827.5135.python-list@python.org><tW%Wc.22419$v86.11990@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<mailman.2373.1093455703.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <AMwXc.31025$v86.26472@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"Anthony Baxter" <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2373.1093455703.5135.python-list at python.org...
> This looks like a bug. Please open a bug on SF, with the example code.

I just opened this bug, it is number 1017329.

-- Paul




From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug  6 20:36:39 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 20:36:39 -0400
Subject: How do you feel ?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1320.1091837963.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.940.1087222870.6949.python-list@python.org>
	<mailman.1320.1091837963.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <MsudnbLNk8GFuYncRVn-rA@powergate.ca>

Howard Stearns wrote:
> The one thing I've found annoying is that I haven't yet discovered how 
> to do whatever I want in lambda expressions. I have top-level 
> assignments where I'd like create a function to use as the the value 
> being assigned. I don't know how to define a named function in a 
> top-level assignment, and a lambda won't allow me to use 'try' and other 
> statements -- just expressions. Or am I looking at things wrong?

What do you mean by "top-level assignment"?  If it's the same
meaning most Python programmers would give it, you just do this:

def somefunc():
     pass

topLevelName = somefunc

There's your top-level assignment of a named function.  Probably
not what you meant, but can you clarify please?

-Peter


From maxm at mxm.dk  Mon Aug 30 18:59:13 2004
From: maxm at mxm.dk (Max M)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 00:59:13 +0200
Subject: "Content-Length" header
In-Reply-To: <ch09bt$38o$06$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <ch07ui$edo@odbk17.prod.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408310007040.1162-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<ch09bt$38o$06$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <4133b0ee$0$191$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>

Diez B. Roggisch wrote:
> Peter Kleiweg wrote:
> 
>>Justin schreef:
>>
>>>I found the answer.  After about 3 hours of agonizing over it it turned
>>>out to be CASE
>>>some webservers are CASE SENSITVE about their urls and some are not.
>>
>>There are case-insensitive webservers? Never knew that.
> 
> Rumors are that they even created *whole OSes* in that fashion. I wonder if
> that _might_ be the cause for the webservers beeing so nasty.... 

I came to think of case sensitivity holding semantic meaning in Python, 
and while I was initially against it, I came to the conclusion that it 
is a good idea.

I guess the best argument is that it holds the same role as forced 
indenting.

Programmes keep a consistent style for all programmers. We don't get 
programmes written in all/mixed caps.


FOR I IN RANGE(100):
     PRINT i

For J In Range(100):
     Print J

for iterator in range(100):
     print ItErAtOr


regards Max M


From briangue at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 19:05:29 2004
From: briangue at gmail.com (Brian)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 16:05:29 -0700
Subject: Merging pdf documents with Python
References: <mailman.1965.1092927979.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bc1ab822.0408191505.71d466a8@posting.google.com>

Assuming you've got ghostscript installed on Unix or Windows:


import os, sys

for in_file in sys.argv[1:]:
    os.system("pdf2ps %s" % in_file)

cat_cmd = 'cat '
for in_file in sys.argv[1:]:
    cat_cmd  += in_file + ".ps "
cat_cmd += "> all.ps"

os.system("ps2pdf all.ps all.pdf")
os.system("rm -f all.ps")

for in_file in sys.argv[:1]:
    os.system("rm -f %i.ps" % in_file)



"Daryl Middleton" <dmidd at chartermi.net> wrote in message news:<mailman.1965.1092927979.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> Can python be used to merge pdf documents into a single pdf file so that I
> do not have to manually insert each one. Thanks


From richardshea at fastmail.fm  Tue Aug  3 09:01:42 2004
From: richardshea at fastmail.fm (Richard Shea)
Date: 3 Aug 2004 06:01:42 -0700
Subject: python tutes on win32
References: <f6e0a56a.0408011144.12bde5ad@posting.google.com>
	<1ZmdnZw7k-WA0ZDcRVn-rg@adelphia.com>
	<f6e0a56a.0408021313.776504be@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <282f826a.0408030501.352a9499@posting.google.com>

[snip]
> 
> Sorry, I meant tutorial. I did Google for it but I was looking for a
> recommended tutorial as I was just starting up Python.
> 
Can't think of a tutorial exclusively for Py/W32 but if you're really
just starting (and on a W32 platform) I strongly recommend getting the
documentation in Windows Help Format (CHM) - this is a very useful
facility enabling searching and a slightly friendlier interface than
the online documentation (which is still great I hasten to add). I've
just gone looking for where to find that and I can't find it ! I can
find other doco downloads but not that, can anyone else tell us where
that is ?

Also if you have some money to spare I would strongly recommend the
O'Reilly book "Python Programming on Win32" by Mark Hammond and Andy
Robinson. It's a very useful book although I have to say that if
you're just starting you'll find lots to do before you need to start
worrying about the bits which are specific to Win32.

Make sure you have downloaded the Win32All package - look here
http://starship.python.net/crew/mhammond/ (and while you're at it take
a look at  http://www.python.org/windows/ ) and then you'll have
PythonWin as well as IDLE to run/edit your code in, as well as lots of
other Win32 stuff which is useful.

It occurs to me that you might be thinking of leaping straight into
GUI programming using Python. If that's so you may have to discount
some of what I've said about not needing to worry about platform
differences. I've been using Python for just over a year but so far I
haven't got into doing the GUI side of things.

Finally somethign I only just found today myself,
http://www.rexx.com/~dkuhlman/python_101/python_101.html - it's not
Win32 specific but I think you'll find it useful.

regards

richard shea.


From da_rosser at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  4 14:45:00 2004
From: da_rosser at yahoo.com (Doug Rosser)
Date: 4 Aug 2004 11:45:00 -0700
Subject: Modern dead-tree Python resources
References: <mailman.1101.1091568194.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<411016d7_1@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <e08cd05f.0408041045.263d89bd@posting.google.com>

"beliavsky at aol.com" <beliavsky at 127.0.0.1:7501> wrote in message news:<411016d7_1 at 127.0.0.1>...
> Michael Ekstrand <python at elehack.net> wrote:
> 
> >Is there a good book that covers Python at least through 2.2 (including
>  
> >new-style classes, etc.)? I'm particularly looking for something with 
> >large appendices of reference material. (alternatively, if someone's 
> >publishing print versions of the Python documentation, that would 
> >possibly be of interest. 
> 
> A good reference for Python 2.2 is "Python in a Nutshell", by Alex Martell.
> Also good, and more pedagogical, is "Learning Python", 2nd. edition, by Lutz
> and Ascher. O'Reilly published both books.
> 
> 
> 
> ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
> http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
> ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Sadly, the second edition of Learning Python is so thorough, it isn't
superb for -learning- python anymore. It is one helluva nice
reference, though.

da rosser


From sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au  Mon Aug  9 22:31:51 2004
From: sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au (Sam Holden)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 02:31:51 GMT
Subject: decorators vs GIL
References: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>
	<mailman.1345.1091924284.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<96c2e938.0408081605.706f8ec7@posting.google.com>
	<cf8n4s$b7u$3@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>
Message-ID: <slrnchgcsn.53b.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>

On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 20:34:36 +0000 (UTC),
	Jarek Zgoda <jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl> wrote:
> G. S. Hayes <sjdevnull at yahoo.com> pisze:
>
>>> What really hurts is that I can't honestly tell Java programmers that
>> 
>>> Python  is a slam dunk compared to Java & the JVM.  Java has no GIL,
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Java has drunk the threads Kool-Aid, and Java programmers are very
>> likely to be thread-crazy because of the lack of a select equivalent
>> (until recently) and the lack of good access to processes via fork or
>> similar.  Luckily, it's usually pretty easy to convince people of the
>> benefits of NOT overusing threads once they've made that mistake once.
>
> Try GUI programming without using threads.

Right this minute I'm writing a GUI program which creates a long lasting
tcp connection, and at times less long lasting udp "connections".

No threads.

Well I guess one thread... :)

-- 
Sam Holden


From t-meyer at ihug.co.nz  Wed Aug 18 22:58:05 2004
From: t-meyer at ihug.co.nz (Tony Meyer)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:58:05 +1200
Subject: get last two in a length of unknown length?
In-Reply-To: <ECBA357DDED63B4995F5C1F5CBE5B1E8962B80@its-xchg4.massey.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <ECBA357DDED63B4995F5C1F5CBE5B1E86C54F2@its-xchg4.massey.ac.nz>

> I have a list of varying length. Would someone know the way 
> to get the last two values for this? I can see how this is 
> done with a list that I know the length of, but not one thats 
> generated by user input.

One way is to use the length of the list in your calculation, e.g:

>>> somelist = [1,2,3,4,5,6,]
>>> somelist[len(somelist)-1]
6
>>> somelist[len(somelist)-2]
5

However, a much better and simpler way is to simply count backwards:

>>> somelist = [1,2,3,4,5,6,]
>>> somelist[-2:]
[5, 6]

=Tony Meyer



From rganesan at myrealbox.com  Thu Aug 19 07:41:33 2004
From: rganesan at myrealbox.com (Ganesan R)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 17:11:33 +0530
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<4124724C.8040001@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<41248398$0$218$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
Message-ID: <xkvhisbfe4nm.fsf@cisco.com>

>>>>> "Max" == Max M <maxm at mxm.dk> writes:

> Robin Becker wrote:
>> Lucas Raab wrote:
>> 
>>> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
>>> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
>>> about....
>>> 
>> so far with a count of 74 the average is 35.72

> Up that a nudge with me: 39

Down a nudge with me :-). I am 32. Started with Basic on Spectrum 48K and a
IBM PC Clone. Some Z80 assembly programming on the Spectrum. Then Fortran,
Pascal and even (gasp!) COBOL. Moved on to C, C++ and Shell scripting. Found
Perl along the way, was delighted with it. Did a bit of programming in
Java. Dabbled occasionally in Tcl and recently C#. Found Python a couple of
years back. Nowadays Python has mostly replaced Perl for my scripting needs,
though I still fallback to plain old shell scripting occasionally.


Ganesan



From hbl at st-andrews.ac.uk  Tue Aug 10 14:01:21 2004
From: hbl at st-andrews.ac.uk (Hamish Lawson)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 11:01:21 -0700
Subject: Maybe, just maybe @decorator syntax is ok after all
References: <du7n017ni6o.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>
	<b840abf4.0408080422.44fcf41c@posting.google.com>
	<b840abf4.0408090607.722880a2@posting.google.com>
	<cf87jt$bra$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<b840abf4.0408100218.59bec5ad@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <2d0b37fc.0408100934.560d0e04@posting.google.com>

artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR) wrote:
> bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter) wrote in message news:<cf87jt$bra$0$216.39.172.122 at theriver.com>...
> > On 9 Aug 2004 07:07:54 -0700, artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR) wrote:
> > <snip>
> > >So the order is reverse, which breaks my previous interpretation. Oh, well...
> > >
> > I think your example is not from the PEP. What "spec" are you citing?
> 
> http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/ref/function.html

That part of the reference manual says:

"""
If there are multiple decorators, they are applied in reverse order.
For example, the following code:

@f1
@f2
def func(): pass

is equivalent to:

def func(): pass
func = f2(f1(func))
"""

I believe that in the example the author may have got confused by the
visual appearance of the expression f2(f1(func)). It's the order of
*application* that is the key thing and this expression actually has
f1 being applied first, rather than f2 as mandated by the "apply in
reverse order" rule. The example should instead have given the
equivalent expression as f1(f2(func)).


Hamish Lawson


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 02:55:35 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 08:55:35 +0200
Subject: Proposal for removing self
References: <mailman.2479.1093564328.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1gj65zl.1cuz9ub5xyo3rN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy) <tdelaney at avaya.com> wrote:

> Andrea Griffini wrote:
> 
> > I remember Alex Martelli advocating in our italian newsgroup on
> > C++ that C++ programmers should use "this->..." everywhere :-)
> 
> I evangelise this here (mainly for Java code these days, but close
> enough). Unfortunately, I don't seem to be able to convince anyone else

While it's also a good idea in Java, it's not as compelling as in C++,
because Java mostly lacks the complications due to C++'s templates and
freestanding ("not inside a class") names (haven't looked at Java
generics so I don't know if they got those complications back in;-).


Alex


From skip at pobox.com  Fri Aug 13 10:47:17 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:47:17 -0500
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
In-Reply-To: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <16668.54389.283204.883202@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    beliavsky> I wonder if there is a way to remove this initial
    beliavsky> barrier. Could an alternate source form be defined, so that
    beliavsky> there are matching if-endif and for-next constructs instead
    beliavsky> of significant indentation? 

Look at Tools/scripts/pindent.py in the standard distribution.  Run it as a
preprocessor over your code before running it.

Skip


From gyromagnetic at excite.com  Fri Aug 20 17:07:52 2004
From: gyromagnetic at excite.com (Gyro Funch)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:07:52 -0600
Subject: just ignore Guido's "rejections" [Re: Alternative decorator
	syntaxdecision]
In-Reply-To: <10icpd98dsjcsf2@corp.supernews.com>
References: <wRhVc.23879$Mt5.1140091@wagner.videotron.net>	<mailman.2014.1092990953.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nPlVc.23904$Mt5.1223926@wagner.videotron.net>	<2uadnbqpMuI1krvcRVn-sg@comcast.com>
	<mailman.2077.1093031462.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<s6adnbDz3dsMx7vcRVn-hQ@comcast.com>
	<10icpd98dsjcsf2@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <41266828@news.ColoState.EDU>

Jeff Shannon wrote:

> Doug Holton wrote:
> 
>> Anthony Baxter wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:50:18 -0500, Doug Holton <insert at spam.here> 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> We can safely ignore Guido's "rejections" when deciding upon an
>>>> alternative to agree upon.  Many people felt his rejections of C1 (a
>>>> longtime community favorite), E1 and other alternatives were wrong.
>>>> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/048134.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Uh, what? No, you _can't_ ignore Guido's rejections - if you really 
>>> decide
>>> that you must have a form he's objected to, you need a _damn_ strong
>>> argument to back that up. A "longtime community favorite" doesn't mean
>>> a thing - this is language design, not American Idol - that a lot of 
>>> people
>>> like it makes no difference.
>>
>>
>>
>> Um, yes.  The point is to determine what the *community* decides on, 
>> and *then* present that to Guido.  You're just helpping confound this 
>> second vote even more.  Some people aren't voting for what they think 
>> is best, but what they think Guido hasn't "rejected".  That is 
>> ridiculous. You'll end up with a syntax that nobody really ever liked 
>> most, even Guido.
> 
> 
> 
> On the other hand, if the community decides that the only thing they 
> prefer to @pie is something that Guido's already rejected... then we get 
> @pie.
> I can vote for Superman for president all I want, and I can talk all my 
> friends into voting for him, but even if a majority of the country votes 
> for Superman, he's still not gonna be taking any inaugural oath.  
> Instead of voting for an impossible fantasy, it's much more sensible to 
> restrict myself to voting for people/options with *some* chance of success.
> 
> Keep in mind here, that what we're trying to do is vote for something 
> for which we think we can create a convincing case that it's better than 
> @pie.  And Guido is the only person for whom "convincing" is relevant.  
> If he's already rejected something, it will be *extremely* difficult to 
> convince him that his rejection was a mistake.  I'd rather focus my 
> efforts where they're a little more likely to bear fruit.
> 
> Jeff Shannon
> Technician/Programmer
> Credit International
> 

 From python-dev

 >>If the community can *agree* on
 >>> > something they can support, I will listen.
 >
 >>
 >> Even if it's []-after-args?


If most people favor that over prefix @deco, sure, I'll give it
another look.  (It better come with an implementation though.)

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)





From hoang at jotsite.com  Thu Aug 12 15:19:08 2004
From: hoang at jotsite.com (Hoang Do)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:19:08 GMT
Subject: drop into the interpreter
Message-ID: <MoPSc.848$PG2.811334@twister.tampabay.rr.com>

is there a facility to inspect the run-time of a python script?
Essentially, it would execute a script to a set specific point and then drop
into the interpreter.  Something like a "Stop" or "Break"?

Hoang Do
hoang at jotsite.com




From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Tue Aug 10 15:33:36 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 12:33:36 -0700
Subject: remaining decorator syntax options
Message-ID: <d11dcfba.0408101133.4943f06b@posting.google.com>

So here's the state of the decorator debate as I see it:


*** Location

GvR pretty strongly wants decorators before the function:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047112.html
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047279.html

The idea being that decorators and other function properties should
not look like part of the function's code.  I don't think there's much
chance of swaying GvR on this count.


*** Indentation

Since location has been pretty much decided, I see three options here:

(1)
<indicator> dec
def f():
    pass

(2)
<indicator>
    dec
def f():
    pass

(3)
<indicator> dec
    def f():
        pass

GvR definitely disliked the third version because it meant that class
functions could all be at different indentation levels.  The PEP
suggests that the second version was disliked because it suggests that
"using" is introducing a new scope (although arguments about if/else
behavior seemed to counter this somewhat).  There didn't seem to be
any arguments that made version 2 drastically better than version 1
though, so it seems most likely that a BDFL pronouncement will give us
version 1.


*** List notation

Assuming a pre-def, non-indented decorator, here are the remaining
list notations:

(1)
<indicator> dec1
<indicator> dec2
<indicator> dec3

(2)
<indicator> [dec1, dec2, dec3]

(3)
<indicator> dec1, dec2, dec3

I believe that version 3 was vetoed because it makes it too hard to
break lists of decorators across lines.  GvR's preference is
definitely for 1, but that may be influenced by his decision for the
indicator.  I have a feeling that how long the indicator is directly
affects which of (1) or (2) is preferred.  Compare:

@dec1
@dec2
@dec3

vs.

@[dec1, dec2, dec3]

and

using dec1
using dec2
using dec3

vs.

using [dec1, dec2, dec3]

It seems like with a single symbol character, the non-list syntax is
much more concise, and probably clearer.  However with a keyword
syntax the list seems the better option.

Which brings us, of course to the final section:

*** Indicator

The options seemed to be:

(1) a symbol (@, |, etc.)
(2) a keyword (using, decorate, etc.)
(3) similar to function
(4) no indicator

Options (3) and (4) were ruled out because (given that we're already
relegated to a before-def syntax) they are already valid syntax, and
redefining them for decorators means changing the expected semantics
of the statements.

Option (1), with @, is GvR's favorite, and does have something of a
Java backing.  It has the substantial disadvantage that there is no
particular reason (or even some sort of mnemonic) for which @ (or |
for that matter) should mean "decorator".

With option (2), we can choose a keyword that does suggest a
decorator.  Even "using", which is not an outstanding choice, is at
least more intuitive than '@'.  Option (2) does have the disadvantage
that it requires introducing a new keyword, but this is not
insurmountable -- it was done before for generators.  And GvR even
said that he would consider this option if there enough support for
it.

----

So here's my suggestions:

Let's leave the location and indentation arguments behind.  We're not
making much progress on them, and I don't think there's much chance of
swaying GvR.  Reiterating all the old arguments won't get us closer to
a syntax we're happy with.

I think once the indicator argument is decided, the list-structure
decision will fall out of it.

So I'd suggest that we put all our effort into the indicator
discussions.  If you have a good argument for why a keyword is better
than a symbol, or why a symbol is better than a keyword, please voice
them now.  And remember that 'because it's prettier' or 'because it's
uglier' are not aguments GvR will consider.  We need strong arguments,
that argue on the basis of readability or learnability or
maintainability, etc.


... and my opinion:

A keyword is much more Pythonic than a symbol:

A well chosen keyword can suggest the meaning of the construction,
e.g. "using ... def ..." suggests that the decorators are used as part
of the definition of the function.  A symbol like '@' or '|' cannot
easily suggest the meaning in this manner.

For this reason, a keyword makes both reading and learning Python
decorator syntax easier.  If you encounter "using ... def ..." and
have to guess at it's meaning, your knowledge of English "using" can
now be applied to guess the meaning of Python "using".  This is not
true of a symbol like '@' or '|'.

(An additional argument might be that it will be at least /possible/
to Google "using", but impossible to do so for "@" or "|".  This was
one of the frustrating things about Perl for me -- if I didn't know
what a symbol did, I couldn't Google it because it wasn't a word. 
Remember that if you don't know it's a decorator, you don't know to
search for "decorate" ;)


hoping-to-keep-this-dicussion-productive-ly-yrs,

Steve


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 14 17:56:37 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:56:37 -0400
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <2o7cipF7g74nU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <9ADC3170-EDAF-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>	<mailman.1652.1092490554.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2o7cipF7g74nU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <cfm1r4$8vj$1@sea.gmane.org>

Leif K-Brooks wrote:

> Paul Morrow wrote:
> 
>> <says that classmethods should be done based on argument names>
>> Python was built (successfully) on the assumption that obvious 
>> interpretations of the code obviate the need for declarations.  Why 
>> wouldn't we continue with that mindset?
> 
> 
> One of the principles of Python is also "explicit is better than 
> implicit". Your idea, though interesting, doesn't really seem to fit in 
> with that.

I'm really not sure that those 'Zen' items were intended to be absolute 
guiding principles.   For example, we don't (explicitly) declare 
variables.  And I think that the way we indicate blocks of code (via 
indentation) has a somewhat implicit flavor to it as well (it might be 
arguably more explicit if we used curly braces or some such).

I think that a more appropriate principle here would be something like 
'clear is better than ambiguous'.  Ideally, any given Python statement 
should have only one interpretation, shared by the Python system, the 
statement author, and anyone else who might someday read the statement.
Unfortunately, because we have recommended practices that are widely 
used yet *not enforced by the Python system*, code that strays from the 
recommended style can confuse --- or even worse, mislead --- the reader.

For example, if an experienced Python developer was reading someone's 
code and saw the following method...

     class Foo:
	def setX(self, x):
		self.x = x

... I doubt that they would consider the possibility that setX might be 
something other than an instance method of class Foo.  Instead, I 
believe that they would most likely *assume* that the author followed 
the recommended coding conventions.

But setX could be a static method or a class method, if the class later 
declared it as such.  That's wonderfully flexible I know.  But I think 
that we'd all be better off if we didn't have that particular freedom.








From john at grulic.org.ar  Tue Aug 31 19:21:35 2004
From: john at grulic.org.ar (John Lenton)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:21:35 -0300
Subject: Beeping the console
In-Reply-To: <ch2qnk$9ci$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <ch2qnk$9ci$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20040831232135.GE7439@grulic.org.ar>

On Tue, Aug 31, 2004 at 03:31:31PM -0600, Jeffrey Barish wrote:
> What is the easiest way to beep the console from a Python program (i.e.,
> to do the same thing as echo -e \a)?

perhaps not 'the easiest', but:

if it's going to be running on a linux tty,

    con = file('/dev/tty', 'rw')
    fcntl.ioctl(con.fileno(),
                0x4B30, # KDMKTONE, from linux/kd.h
                1190000/2000 + (100 << 16))

will beep the speaker at 2kHz for 100 ticks.

if it's going to be running on a console that knows how to beep,

    curses.wrapper(lambda dummy: curses.beep())

(this might actually be what you're wanting, but it's only slightly
better than 'print "\a"').


me, I vote for

    os.system(conf.soundprog, conf.sounds.beep)

:)

-- 
John Lenton (john at grulic.org.ar) -- Random fortune:
Q:	Why did the programmer call his mother long distance?
A:	Because that was her name.
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From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Sun Aug  8 13:54:06 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 17:54:06 GMT
Subject: Decorators
References: <%A8Rc.50217$Vm1.1280580@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<roy-1C5AF5.18404707082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<u93bh0p8plvilk6veou5i1jq9o12b1pajs@4ax.com>
	<ad052e5c.0408080316.5672a8be@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <90qch0t2bp02snqb6eeitt2ta5gigsk5rb@4ax.com>

On 8 Aug 2004 04:16:09 -0700, danb_83 at yahoo.com (Dan Bishop) wrote:

>Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote in message news:<u93bh0p8plvilk6veou5i1jq9o12b1pajs at 4ax.com>...
>> On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 18:40:47 -0400, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
>...
>> I am a great believer in (motivated ) folks capacity to learn new
>> things.  And the existence of synonyms is not news to anyone. So no,
>> nobody motivated to learn new things will be stopped in their tracks
>> by @ in a new context
>
>I agree.  
>
>> (anymore than anyone motivated to learn new
>> things things would - given an explanation - be stopped in their
>> tracks by 1/2 = 0 ).
>
>I never had a problem with 1/2 == 0; I was already used to it from C, C++, and Java.
>
>But I did get stopped in my tracks the time a function that contained a line like
>
>   mean = sum(seq) / len(seq)
>
>failed because the list happened not to contain any floats.

Not to get off on it.

But you should be aware that I am 100% in agreement with the good
arguments related to the this issue, and 100% against the bad ones.



;)


Art


From zanesdad at bellsouth.net  Mon Aug 23 08:53:55 2004
From: zanesdad at bellsouth.net (Jeremy Jones)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 08:53:55 -0400
Subject: training classes in Atlanta, GA?
In-Reply-To: <cgcnqs$41h@odah37.prod.google.com>
References: <cgcnqs$41h@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <4129E8E3.60400@bellsouth.net>

Alex Pavluck wrote:

>Does anyone know if there are training classes for a PYTHON beginner in
>Atlanta, GA?  I need it to not be too expensive and after 5 or
>weekends!  
>
>Thanks!
>
>Alex
>
>  
>
I haven't found anything.  I've thought about giving classes before (for 
beginner->intermediate) in the ATL area.  If you're interested, perhaps 
we could work out a one-on-one class - or if others are interested, 
perhaps we could work out something more inclusive.  Email me back 
directly if you're interested in discussing this a little.


Jeremy Jones


From roy at panix.com  Fri Aug  6 18:15:13 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 18:15:13 -0400
Subject: How to force a single number to be a tuple
References: <mailman.1138.1091636758.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-6EC9F2.12271204082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1142.1091637381.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1a517b5.0408061329.429de7fc@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <roy-0B13C1.18151306082004@reader1.panix.com>

bryanjugglercryptographer at yahoo.com (Bryan Olson) wrote:
> Python tuples overlap too much with lists, and differ from the 
> functional/relational view in which a tuple is an element of the 
> Cartesian product of zero or more domains.

For those of us who went to school a while ago, and perhaps didn't pay 
as much attention in math class as we should have, could you translate 
"an element of the Cartesian product of zero or more domains" into 
English?

> What Python calls 'tuples' are really immutable lists.

That's the way I've always thought of them.  I know the cognoscenti will 
insist that tuples are anonymous structures of heterogeneous types and 
lists are ordered collections of homogenous data, but I don't buy the 
distinction.  There's nothing in the language that makes me think homo 
vs. hetero for either.  Maybe I'm being obstinate (my wife has certainly 
accused me of that on one more than one occasion), or maybe I just swing 
both ways when it comes to data containers, but that's the way I see it.

I remember once having a white-board discussion with some C++ friends of 
mine where we were talking about writing code to parse things like:

insert into foo values (1, 2, "three", "four");

My Python code built up a list of the values and generated [1, 2, 
"three", "four"].  My two friends recoiled violently at the idea that I 
would put heterogeneous data types into a list.  I passed it off as 
simply being due to their poor unfortunate upbringing in the C++/STL 
world of type bondage, while I was living in the carefree bohemian 
Python world.  I was shocked to discover some time later that Python was 
not as bohemian as I thought, and the priests and elders would have been 
as dismayed at my carefree mixing of data types in a list as my stodgy 
C++ brethren were.

I personally think tuples should have used <> instead of ().  It would 
have resolved a lot of notational ambiguity.


From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Tue Aug 10 16:24:27 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 22:24:27 +0200
Subject: Decorator "platform"
Message-ID: <2nsoofF49frcU1@uni-berlin.de>

Hello,

no, I won't start another @ discussion thread; just wondering: Everyone
is up and starting with decorators, coding decorator functions, wrapper
etc. Many of these ideas sound great, and it would be a big advantage to
everyone following to have the different uses of decorators collected,
to serve as a starting point or a repository of what's possible.

What I have in mind is a sort of "decorator library" where everyone who
has written a useful function of that kind can share it with others,
instead of only posting it here. As I don't know whether there will be a
"decorators" module in the stdlib, this would serve as a replacement
until decorators are a final language feature.

How would one realise such a project?

Reinhold

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 02:28:49 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 16:28:49 +1000
Subject: Python future performance and speed
In-Reply-To: <7x4qmv6cwo.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com> <7x4qmv6cwo.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082123287c84c347@mail.gmail.com>

On 21 Aug 2004 20:59:35 -0700, Paul Rubin
<"http://phr.cx"@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> Well, whenever I want to write a mainstream application and think of
> using Python, my first reaction is that Python is too slow...

Too slow for what? 

I'm not being facetious here - what exactly are the bits of Python that
are too slow? I used to think this as well, but see my PyCon paper from
earlier this year.


From mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no  Mon Aug 23 16:53:27 2004
From: mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no (Magnus Lie Hetland)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:53:27 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Standard graph API?
References: <mailman.2228.1093282813.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<eklxfytr.fsf@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <slrncikma7.e8q.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>

In article <eklxfytr.fsf at yahoo.co.uk>, Paul Moore wrote:
[snip]
>   If we had adaptation in Python (PEP 246) I'd suggest an
>   IGraph protocol, plus adapters for common implementation methods.

This is exactly what I was thinking about -- one could use
PyProtocols, for example.

The (as of now quite hypothetical) standard would, however, not have
to include such an interface; one could easily implement that (and
adapters) based on the standard description.

I'm thinking along the lines of an informational PEP.

>In my personal graph library, I found that one of the nastiest issues
>was writing suitably general DFS/BFS algorithms which had "hooks" at
>relevant points

Yes... I've been thinking about this -- it might be useful to allow
some form of traversal (where you could supply your own queue object,
for example, giving you bfs, dfs, dijkstra, prim, whatever) and have
the traversal take the form of an iterator (similar to the Boost graph
library). But if access to each node and its neighbors is available in
the interface, such traversals wouldn't really have to be part of the
standard API...

-- 
Magnus Lie Hetland     "Canned Bread: The greatest thing since sliced
http://hetland.org      bread!" [from a can in Spongebob Squarepants]


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Thu Aug  5 09:45:40 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:45:40 -0400
Subject: Decorator syntax
In-Reply-To: <JEiQc.16955$_25.574@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1173.1091670172.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<38ednYT1NLz1P4zcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
	<JEiQc.16955$_25.574@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408050856390.31290-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu>

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Paul McGuire wrote:

> remind me of when I lived in Maine. When I complained about how bad the
> drivers were, inevitably the response was "we're not as bad as the drivers
> in Massachusetts!"

I believe that statement is universally true ;)

I think much of the problem in coming up with a universally acceptable
decorator solution is that we're trying to kill too many birds with one
stone.  I believe the decorator problem can be seperated into at least
three distinct needs:


1) An easy, visually noticable way of declaring the type of a function, 
   such as classmethod and staticmethod.

This problem arose because classmethod and staticmethod weren't built 
in to the language.  The foo = classmethod(foo) syntax is a 
backwards-compatible hack, not the best way to do things.  For such a 
fundamental construct, we need language support.  Languages with support 
for these things already have a clear, consice way of specifying these 
things:

 def classmethod foo(self):
     pass

Why can't we do the same with Python?  The syntax doesn't have to 
support user constructs (indeed, it shouldn't), and it doesn't have to 
support more than one decorator (indeed, with only classmethod 
and staticmethod to choose from, this doesn't even make sense).


2) An easy, visually unobtrusive way of declaring metadata.

This is a problem we've encountered before.  The solution was to make a 
string at the top of the function behave as metadata, rather than code.  
Perhaps something similar can be done with a dictionary:

 def foo(a,b,c):
     {accepts: (int,int,list), author: 'Chris King'}
     pass

 foo.__metadata__['accepts'] --> (int,int,list)

Note that such a method is implementable in pure Python via some
byte-code trickery, and can thusly be made backwards-compatible.

Another (perhaps better) method of declaring metadata has been previously 
proposed, that of function attributes:

 def foo(a,b,c):
     .accepts = (int,int,list)
     .author = 'Chris King'

but this proposal has also (sadly) been previously rejected, despite its 
elegance and similarity to proposed "with" blocks.


3) An easy, visually noticable, yet unobtrusive way of mangling functions:

Doing such a thing, IMO, should not have syntax support.  When functions
are mangled in a user-defined way, it should look like this is happening.  
Why not make it convenient and wrap in up in a function:

 def foo(a,b,c):
     pass

 mutate(foo, make_my_function_awesome, partializer(5))

This has the advantage of being more general-purpose than syntax support:  
say make_my_function_awesome is not available, so a NameError is raised.  
The user can simply skip using that function in that case.  Or the
existence of make_my_function_awesome can be checked beforehand, and left
out of the mutate call if it's not available.

If syntax support is used, there's no way to try/except function manglers, 
save try/excepting the entire function defintion (and forcing multiple 
identical versions of the function to be defined).  Quite ugly.


So, to sum it up, let's look at what a totally pimped-out function might 
look like:

 def classmethod foo(self,a,b,c):
     """Returns a+b*c."""
     {accepts: (int,int,int), author: 'Chris King'}

     return a+b*c

 mutate(foo, make_my_function_awesome, partializer(5))

Compare to the current state of affairs:

 @partializer(5)
 @make_my_function_awesome
 @author('Chris King')
 @accepts(int,int,int)
 @classmethod
 def foo(self,a,b,c):
     """Returns a+b*c."""

      return a+b*c

Judge for yourself.



From fortepianissimo at gmail.com  Mon Aug  2 16:44:38 2004
From: fortepianissimo at gmail.com (Fortepianissimo)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:44:38 -0400
Subject: module timeit and variable scope
In-Reply-To: <a115b3f9.69b7f02b.829df00@po-d.temple.edu>
References: <a115b3f9.69b7f02b.829df00@po-d.temple.edu>
Message-ID: <78aed1f304080213447cc8425d@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:30:44 -0400, brianc at temple.edu <brianc at temple.edu> wrote:
> >2. How do I introduce a variable into the timeit.Timer? For
> example I
> >have a class Foo:

> >class Foo:
> >  def __init__ (self):
> >    # the following line didn't work because the scope is not
> >    #   the calling function
> >    # self._timer = timeit.Timer(stmt='self.run(bar)')
> >    pass
> >
> >  def someMethod (self, bar):
> >    print bar
> >
> >  def run (self, bar):
> >    # call self.someMethod(bar) and record time using
> >    #   self._timer
> >    pass
> >
> Just create an instance in the setup portion of the Timer.
> t=timeit.Timer('foo.run()','from __main__ import Foo; foo=Foo()')
> To just test __init__ of your class:
> t=timeit.Timer('Foo()','from __main__ import Foo')
> 
> Setup only runs once.

But this will create a new instance inside the timer. Instead, I want
to use an instance that is created *before* the timer is initialized.
Something like this:


--- CUT HERE ---
import timeit


class Foo:
    def __init__ (self):
        # won't work cuz self is alien to self.timer
        self.timer = timeit.Timer(stmt = 'f.aMethod()', setup = 'f = self')

    def aMethod (self):
        for i in range(10000):
            i *= 2

    def run (self):
        self.timer.timeit()
        self.timer.print_exc()


f = Foo()
f.run()
--- CUT HERE ---

Any other suggestion? Thank you.


From paolo_veronelli at yahoo.it  Sat Aug  7 17:15:58 2004
From: paolo_veronelli at yahoo.it (paolo veronelli)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 23:15:58 +0200
Subject: Decorator syntax
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed204080713403c9be669@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1173.1091670172.5135.python-list@python.org><38ednYT1NLz1P4zcRVn-uA@powergate.ca><JEiQc.16955$_25.574@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<mailman.1182.1091694251.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<QzyQc.1782$KZ2.535@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<2nkk3aF1ph3dU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<e69d3ed204080713403c9be669@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <opscdr0wtddgjose@mail.yahoo.it>

On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 06:40:32 +1000, Anthony Baxter 
<anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 20:15:01 +0200, Reinhold Birkenfeld
> <reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net> wrote:
>> But I fear that without a formal "voting" Python will go the pragmatic
>> way - that is, keep @ as it's already implemented.
>

> As I've said (repeatedly) - this isn't a popularity contest. The point 
> is to
> produce the best technical result. If you have a better solution, put 
> together
> a case for it, and convince Guido
wrong list for this

> Please, please - download a2. Try the decorator syntax out (or look at
> test_decorators, or the hopefully-finished-with-the-rewrite-soon PEP318
> (which I'll also post here) for examples.
There is no need to use a new syntax to appriciate it,it's only a syntax 
we can read it.

> Anthony

If it has been simple to estabilish the use of the docstring (which I 
don't use waiting (in vain ?) for a literate python) now
this story of decorators has nothing to do with a decoration of the 
language.It's like we must learn a new way of reading our
favourite way of coding,and some of us don't understand why we must do 
it,as this feature is not for making new things.
All in all:if it's only a new way of writing things they can already be 
written,it's very normal every typer/reader want to express
his/her preference,mainly because wants to use it.
Every language has a sensual side,Python (and Ruby eheh) beats them all 
and this battle shows the pride of loving it.

	Paolino
-- 
....lotta dura  per la verdura



From peter at engcorp.com  Wed Aug 18 08:18:21 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 08:18:21 -0400
Subject: favorite python web development tool?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1854.1092831079.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1854.1092831079.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <N8WdnXkhSe-S1L7cRVn-vQ@powergate.ca>

Ben Last wrote:

> I'm currently approaching the end of a sizeable website development in Zope.
> I found it to be a very powerful environment which is *extremely* badly
> documented and requires a *significant* investment in learning time.  I'm
> not new to Python, and that was very useful to me, since I ended up in the
> source code of the various Zope components many, many times.  If you *are*
> new to Python, I would tentatively suggest that Zope is suitable only if
> your first development is not mission critical or subject to tight time
> pressure.  I don't regret choosing Zope as far as suitability is concerned,
> but I do believe I underestimated how weak the documentation and support is,
> and how difficult it would be to work in.
> 
> This is, I repeat, merely my subjective opinion.  

Though it is one that others share, me included.  I don't regret the
time we spent using Zope, but we moved past the point where the
investment (time, learning, etc) required to work with it was paid
back by the gains.

I will say that in our case we later concluded that Zope was not
the best fit for the job at hand... but we weren't doing anything
that could really be called "content management" so the fault might
be more ours than Zope's.

-Peter


From jpmorichon at earthlink.net  Fri Aug  6 04:07:16 2004
From: jpmorichon at earthlink.net (CptPicard)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 08:07:16 GMT
Subject: Need help on how to use Pymedia!
References: <mailman.1222.1091728885.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <U_GQc.2186$nx2.1254@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>


"Dmitry Borisov" <jbors at mail.ru> wrote in message
news:mailman.1222.1091728885.5135.python-list at python.org...
> From: "CptPicard"
> Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 17:48:04 GMT
> Subject: Re: Re[2]: Need help on how to use Pymedia!
>
> > > Here is the code which will give you what you need( from pycar ). It
is
> > modified to match what you need and therefore not tested.:
> > >
> > >     f= open( <file_name>, 'rb' )
> > >     dec= acodec.Decoder( <file_extension> )
> > >     s= f.read( 20000 )
> > >     fr= dec.decode( s )
> > >     # Hardcoding for mp3 IDv1 tags
> > >     if not dec.hasHeader() and <file_extension>== 'mp3':
> > >       f.seek( -128, 2 )
> > >       dec= acodec.Decoder( 'mp3' )
> > >       dec.decode( f.read( 128 ) )
> > >
> > >     print dec.getInfo()
> >
> > I appreciate your support.
> > I understand that this is a piece of code specially written for fixing
my
> > problem but where could I find such example in pycar ? I looked for
Decoder
> > in the pycar source code (pymedia*-src) and found no match.
> >
> > Do you include support for tag IDv2 too ?
>
> Yes it is.
> The code is located in pycar/audio/aplaylist.py class
AudioFileList.getFileParams()

Indeed!

> The source for pycar is here:
http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/pymedia/pycar-1.0.0-pre2-src.zip
> Dmitry/
>
>




From rkoenig at ginko.de  Sat Aug 28 18:23:33 2004
From: rkoenig at ginko.de (Reinhard Koenig)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 15:23:33 -0700
Subject: How to avoid DOS name mangling under Windows 2000
Message-ID: <5244802.0408281423.325a96e4@posting.google.com>

I'm working with Windows 2000 and Windows 2000 Server in a cmd window.
When I invoke a python script without 'python' prefixed on the command
line whose name does not obey the DOS 8.3 syntax the name is mangled
under Windows 2000 but not under Windows 2000 Server in an error
trace. Why? How can I receive an unmangled name under Windows 2000
without using 'python <scriptname>'? I need it for a later import
statement.

Thanks

Reinhard


From zanesdad at bellsouth.net  Thu Aug 26 11:25:32 2004
From: zanesdad at bellsouth.net (Jeremy Jones)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:25:32 -0400
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
In-Reply-To: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <412E00EC.1060308@bellsouth.net>

Xah Lee wrote:

>Larry Wall and Cults
>(Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
>200012
>
>Dear readers,
>
>Did you know that throughout history there's this thing called cult?
>It is a very interesting phenomenon. I don't have time to expound and
>teach, but will try to brief you.
>  
>
<snipping lots of nonsense>

>How can we prevent heinous cults then? Stop bending truths. Education
>and rationalism. I'm starting my own cult to exterminate morons on
>this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl.
>  
>
Here's some entertaining "stuff" from his website.  Couldn't find what 
he wants to replace UNIX with, though.




i as a troll is rather special because
i tend to put a final say on things, in
contrast with one-liner trolls i myself
despise. (In a sense i'm an anti-troll,
untroll, or an atrocious atroll.) At
first i balked at being branded a
troll. Now i revel it. I as a troll is
rather recent, beginning and getting
worse about in 1998. I have been using
online discussion medium since
1990. Perhaps one day i'll write "how i
became a troll". It is bound to be a
tragedy. --Xah Lee


Unix advocating morons, computing professionals, and info suckers, get 
ready to be pissed off, but make yourself comfortable.


    Protocols, Resources, Mob rulez
    <http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/proto.html>

generic info on computing protocol specs and resources. SGML, XML, CSS, 
TCP/IP, DNS, RFC, Unicode, etc. In the computing industry, especially 
unix community, protocols becoming a stardard is not usually caused by 
technical excellency, but being commonly in use. Those in common use is 
usually a result of being free or non-proprietary, which more often than 
not is technically poor.


Last week i bought a chain saw with a
twisted handle. Perhaps i wasn't
careful, but by accident it chopped one
of my arm off, then i thought to myself
"gosh, this is POWERFUL!". This seems to
be the fashionable mode of thinking
among the unixers or unixer-to-be, who
would equate power and flexibility with
rawness and complexity; disciplined by
repeated accidents. Such a tool would
first chop off the user's brain, molding
a mass of brainless imbeciles and
microcephalic charlatans the likes of
Larry Wall and Linus Torvald jolly
asses. --Xah Lee


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From adurdin at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 08:11:42 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 22:11:42 +1000
Subject: allowing braces around suites
In-Reply-To: <cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a040827051139582f3a@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:40:02 +0100, Michael Sparks
<michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk> wrote:
> Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote:
> ...
> > what do you think?  should I write a PEP?

The whole topic of explicit[*] end-of-block markers was brought up and
discussed at great length in May 1994:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=9405061919.AA03028%40vicorp.com

(I was looking at the old archives of c.l.py to try and find info on
the origins of triple-quoted strings and docstrings, both of which
were born around April 1994)

Regardless of history, it looks to me like your problem could be
better solved by modifying your emacs mode to consider whitespace more
correctly -- AFAICT there is no reason why it should ever pick up the
logging line in your example and indent it to the same level as the
else: block.


From p_s_oberoi at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 23 17:02:49 2004
From: p_s_oberoi at hotmail.com (Paramjit Oberoi)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:02:49 -0500
Subject: Standard graph API?
References: <slrncik8tm.4g.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
	<eppstein-08D901.11581523082004@news.service.uci.edu>
	<pan.2004.08.23.16.22.34.771887@jerf.org>
	<slrnciklkh.e8q.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.23.21.02.46.992545@hotmail.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:41:53 +0000, Magnus Lie Hetland wrote:

> enough) I'm not talking about a standard *implementation*, just a
> standard *API*, like the DB-API. This could easily cover all kinds of
> strange beasts such as directed or undirected, weighted or unweighted
> (etc.) graphs; multigraphs, chain graphs, hypergraphs, who knows.

I believe the equivalent thing in the C++ world is the Boost Graph Library
described here:

http://www.boost.org/libs/graph/doc/table_of_contents.html
http://www.awprofessional.com/bookstore/product.asp?isbn=0201729148

I tried using it once, and it was so horrendously complicated that I gave
up.  Some of the complexity came from having to abstract all the different
kinds of graphs that were supported, but a lot of it was also a result of
the static nature of C++.

Still, it may be useful as a source of ideas and/or warning of problems.

-param



From davids at webmaster.com  Fri Aug 27 13:33:09 2004
From: davids at webmaster.com (David Schwartz)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:33:09 -0700
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4dyXc.25792$Ot3.22106@twister.nyc.rr.com>
	<878yc0ucyl.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>
Message-ID: <cgnr8l$egb$1@nntp.webmaster.com>


"Pascal Bourguignon" <spam at mouse-potato.com> wrote in message 
news:878yc0ucyl.fsf at thalassa.informatimago.com...

> Kenny Tilton <ktilton at nyc.rr.com> writes:

>> >>What you mean with Unixism?
>> >     repeated accidents. Such a tool would
>> >     first chop off the user's brain, molding
>> >     a mass of brainless imbeciles and
>> >     microcephalic charlatans the likes of
>> >     Larry Wall and Linus Torvald jolly
>> > Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
>> >         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> So you like my approach, which is to condemn things they have never used?
>>
>> :)
>
> No, that of no more using things that you condemn.

    I don't follow you at all. I think you'll find the most useful, 
meaningful complaints about, say, a Ford Explorer from the people who drive 
one every day.

    DS




From oriana.falco at thalesesec.com  Wed Aug 25 12:02:40 2004
From: oriana.falco at thalesesec.com (Oriana)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 09:02:40 -0700
Subject: Regular Expressions
Message-ID: <808f000f.0408250802.8c303ea@posting.google.com>

hi!

   I've been working with Python for about two months now but I just
started learning about regular expressions.
   My question is the following. I have a source file that contains
code and comments. A piece of the comments contains a revision history
that I would like to erase completely from the file since I never
update it and I don't use it anymore. The file looks something like

/****************************************
* Some info
*
* More info 
*
*----------------------------------------
*
* Revision History:
*
* blah
* blah
* blah
*
*----------------------------------------


I would like to write some sort of regular expression to replace all
the text from the first dotted line up to the first asterisk that it's
followed either by another asterisk or by another *----
line.....please help, I don't know where to start!!!


From harry.g.george at boeing.com  Wed Aug 11 18:54:35 2004
From: harry.g.george at boeing.com (Harry George)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 22:54:35 GMT
Subject: Python script to generate static site?
References: <hl5lh0pb3u4m47f2bsatc9vigrv7pc7v07@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <xqxpt5xjnf8.fsf@cola2.ca.boeing.com>

Fred <fred at acme.com> writes:

> Hi,
> 
> I'm sure there are a bunch of them, but googling just returned
> full-fledged CMS that require a DBMS and generate dynamic pages.
> 
> I'd just like a script that would 
> 1. look in a directory for articles in raw HTML,
> 2. generate a cooked output for each page (ie. add header and footer,
> CSS link in HEAD, etc.),
> 3. regenerate the homepage with "Last modified" bit following each
> article's title,
> 4. ready to be uploaded by FTP to a web server that only handles
> static web pages.
> 
> Considering Python's wealth of libraries, it's most likely only a
> couple hours' work, but since I'm pretty much a Python newbie...
> 
> Thank you
> Fred.

My Pdx package can do this:
manual: http://www.seanet.com/~hgg9140/comp/pdx-1.6.1/doc/manual.html 
download: http://www.seanet.com/~hgg9140/comp/

You do a template, then do "=include_for html" for the basic datafile
you want to wrap.  Or write directly in Pdx (less verbose than raw
html).

-- 
harry.g.george at boeing.com
6-6M21 BCA CompArch Design Engineering
Phone: (425) 342-0007


From vincent at visualtrans.de  Sat Aug  7 14:12:14 2004
From: vincent at visualtrans.de (vincent wehren)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 20:12:14 +0200
Subject: [Python-Dev] RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <4113dddd$0$12507$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1196.1091715567.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cev7mj$lt6$1@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
	<4113429a$0$26993$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<cevs3k$386$1@news5.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
	<41137960.6050400@v.loewis.de>
	<cf056e$glb$1@news3.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
	<4113dddd$0$12507$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
Message-ID: <cf361r$8jt$1@news1.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>

Martin v. L?wis wrote:
> vincent wehren wrote:
> 
>> This is on Windows XP Professional. This is a plain vanilla "limited 
>> user" created via the user accounts tool in the control panel.
> 
> 
> Ok. I will try that.
> 
> There is a policy AlwaysInstallElevated, with which the administrator
> can allow limited users to perform installations:
> 
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/msi/setup/alwaysinstallelevated.asp 
> 
> 
> If the computer is in a domain, this policy can be controlled through
> group policy.
> 
> Regards,
> Martin


Martin, did you see my last remark in my previous post?:

 >
 > MSI does have the notion of unprivileged users, but those are the
 > ones that can't write to System32, the All Users profile, and
 > HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE (i.e. non-Administrator, non-Power User users).
 > There is no provision (AFAICT) for user that can't write to their
 > own registry.

Yes. That makes sense. So I checked the registry with regedit.
"HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes" seems - for whatever reason - to be 
busted for this particular user. At least I can't open it manually with 
regedit, so my tentative guess is the same applies to the installer. 
Sorry I didn't check this first!

-- 
Vincent Wehren


From JSmuts at clover.co.za  Tue Aug 31 02:52:01 2004
From: JSmuts at clover.co.za (Jaco Smuts)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 08:52:01 +0200
Subject: python and ssh, scp on windows
Message-ID: <OFF5CB785D.905723A2-ON42256F01.0023DEEB-42256F01.0025B904@clover.co.za>

Hello there

The short version
question: I am looking for information, resources sample code on using ssh 
and scp from a python program that will run on windows.

The longer version:
problem: My brother needs to update his website (hosted on a linux box) 
using scp. He currently uses putty, pscp (on win 2k). The problem comes in 
that the site is very large. Invariably his dial-up connection would 
disconnect before all the files has been uploaded. Unfortunately to our 
knowledge pscp does not have a resume mechanism when only some of the 
files has been uploaded.

I thought I'd address this by creating a data structure resembling his 
site structure and files (to be pickled for persistence), this would give 
me the ability to 
- keep record of when a file has last  been uploaded. Compare this to when 
the file has last been updated and upload only upload updated files
- "restart" the upload should the connection fail before all files has 
been uploaded.

I am considering simply calling pscp (putty secure copy) using popen2, or 
something to that vain. Are there any better ways. (This is intended to be 
a fairly simple script not a week project)

I have looked at paramiko, but it uses termios, which would limit me to 
Unix's (just realised demo.py uses termios, so I might be wrong here.)

I've also looked at pyssh, but it's been stuck for a very long time at 
version 0.2, does not support wrapping scp anymore and seems to have 
issues on windows.

I suspect that twisted might provide me with a solution, but I don't 
really know twisted and this just seems like a bit of an overkill? If that 
is the way to go I am not closed to this thought, was just hoping for 
something a bit simpler

Any  idea's, code, suggestions would greatly be appreciated

jaco

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From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 30 09:58:11 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 15:58:11 +0200
Subject: initializing mutable class attributes
References: <J4zYc.102357$UTP.98636@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
Message-ID: <1gjc8cs.sqvo1v1fhabdjN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Dan Perl <dperl at rogers.com> wrote:

> There is something with initializing mutable class attributes that I am
> struggling with.  I'll use an example to explain:
>     class Father:
>         attr1=None   # this is OK
>         attr2=[ ]        # this is wrong
>         def foo(self, data):
>             self.attr1=data
>             self.attr2.append(data)
> The initialization of attr1 is obviously OK, all instances of Father
> redefine it in the method foo.  But the initialization of attr2 is wrong
> because all the instances of Father end up sharing the same value.  Maybe
> that is desired sometimes, but usually it is just a bug.

I disagree: good Python programmers often use mutable class attributes,
and use them to good effect.  I've done my share of Python teaching,
consulting and mentoring, and I definitely do *not* think this usage "is
desired sometimes but usually it is just a bug".


> So the only solution I see to this is to initialize attr2 in __init__:
>     class Father:
>         attr1=None
>         def __init__(self):
>             self.attr2=[ ]

This is the canonical way, sure.


> This is already awkward because there is such a difference between attr1 and
> attr2.

One is a class attribute (which nobody forced you to have), the other is
an instance attribute.  If you want both to be instance attributes,
initialize both in __init__ -- that's all there is to it.  Don't use
class attributes unless there's a reason for them to be class
attributes, that seems like a good and sensible rule of thumb to me.

>  But moreover, I think this forces subclasses of Father to do
> something like this:
>     class Child (Father):
>         def __init__(self):
>             Father.__init__(self)
>             self.attr3=[ ]

Assuming an instance of Child needs to have both attributes attr2 and
attr3, yes.

> 
> I find this even more awkward because many people will forget to do it.

Forget to do what -- call the parent class's __init__?  Again, this is
rare -- not as rare as the other "usually just a bug" you opined about,
but not common.  A class normally needs __init__ for a large number of
purposes, of course, not just to assign mutable attributes to each
instance, therefore people who learn subclassing do learn to call the
parent class __init__ very early on, to avoid everything breaking.

> Clearly, this is then a more general issue with __init__, but I think it is
> accentuated by the fact that you HAVE TO HAVE __init__ in order to
> initialize attributes that are mutable.

Making __init__ more common means people are more likely to get used to
it, and thus makes the bug of not calling a parent class's __init__
rarer, not "accentuated".

> 
> Is there something I don't know here and there is a better way to do this in
> Python?  I would like to get a better solution or otherwise start a
> discussion.

There is no BETTER way, IMHO, than normal Python coding, which I believe
is quite good -- but you appear to disagree, therefore it's hard for me
to gauge what you may consider "better".  There is definitely a
DIFFERENT way -- coding a custom metaclass which will tweak the
instantiation of all classes belonging to it, in order to insert some
funky initialization of mutable attributes, and perhaps automate calls
to superclasses' __init__ methods, and so on.  Such automation is a
ticklish issue, in the general case, so let's assume initializing
mutable attributes is all we ever want to do.  Then, for example...:

import copy
class metaImu(type):
    def __call__(cls, *a, **k):
        instance = type.__call__(cls, *a, **k)
        for sup in cls.mro():
            muts = gerattr(sup, '__mutables__', ())
            for mutname in muts:
                if hasattr(instance, mutname): continue
                mutvalue = muts[mutname]
                setattr(instance, mutname, copy.copy(mutvalue))
        return instance

class Father:
    __metaclass__ = metaImu
    __mutables__ = dict(attr1=None, attr2={})

class Child(Father):
    __mutables__ = dict(attr3=[])

I haven't tested this, but I believe it should behave as you appear to
desire (assuming you want shallow rather than deep copying of the
values, of course: I can't read your mind!).  I specifically showed that
you can use __mutables__ also for attributes which are in fact not
mutable, since copy.copy should be innocuous (identity) on those, just
in case you insist on having the same form for all such attributes.  I
have also assumed that an instance's __init__ may be allowed to set its
own value for an attribute in __mutables__ and if it does so then that
should be left alone.  But of course you can play with all of these
aspects at will.  You could even have that __call__ method examine all
attributes defined in the class (or any superclass) and force copies of
them into instance attributes for all whose types are [[whatever
criteria you like...]].


Alex


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 17 19:34:57 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:34:57 -0400
Subject: Flython?
In-Reply-To: <b03e80d.0408171519.5b3f3424@posting.google.com>
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
	<b03e80d.0408171519.5b3f3424@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <65adnQvUKIK_C7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>

Sandy Norton wrote:

> Peter Hansen wrote:
>>In the vein of Jython, I wonder what it would take to build
>>a Flython?  (Lousy name, I know.)  That would take Python
>>source, presumably a subset since some things couldn't be supported,
>>and compile it into ActionScript bytecode (aka the bytecode compiled
>>from ECMAScript source for the Macromedia Flash player environment).
> 
> Have you looked at http://ming.sourceforge.net/

Briefly, but I'm not fully qualified to judge.  I wrote this
in another post that you might not yet have seen:

"""Ming appears to be in an extremely early form, and there are
    suggestions it's not very stable yet (and I think that word was used
    in the sense of "unreliable", not just "changing").

    The script support appears to be "C-like, with a very limited
    feature set".  Doesn't even allow function calls?!  That
    can't be good.
"""

-Peter


From bart_nessux at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 12 22:42:15 2004
From: bart_nessux at hotmail.com (Bart Nessux)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:42:15 -0400
Subject: Print Special Symbols in Tk GUI
Message-ID: <cfh9pr$fnb$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>

Using tkinter to create a Python version of Microsoft's winver. Works 
great... how can I print the copyright symbol (c) and the registered (R) 
symbol into the GUI?

Thanks,
Bart


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 24 12:29:38 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:29:38 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
Message-ID: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>

...that they warrant an entirely new syntax?  It seems that they are 
very similar in a very significant way --- they alter the default 
behavior of something.  IMO, it's not a stretch to say that they 
'parallel' metaclasses; that they are to functions/methods what 
metaclasses are to classes.  So why don't they share a similar syntax?

    class Foo:
       """ This is the docstring for class Foo. """
       __metaclass__ = M
       # body of class goes here


    def baz():
       """ This is the docstring for function baz. """
       __features__ = synchronized, memoized
       # body of function goes here.


I personally find the above baz function aesthetically appealing.  Does 
anyone else feel this way?  For contrast, below is the same function 
written in the proposed A1 and J2 [*] syntaxes (respectively).


    @synchronized
    @memoized
    @doc(""" This is the docstring for function baz. """)
    def baz():
       # body of function goes here.


    decorate:
       """ This is the docstring for function baz. """
       synchronized
       memoized
    def baz():
       # body of function goes here.


* if J2 is accepted, the name 'decorate' may be replaced with some other 
keyword, but I believe that the structure of the syntax would stay the same.

Paul



From rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm  Sat Aug 28 12:42:16 2004
From: rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm (Roel Schroeven)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 16:42:16 GMT
Subject: allowing braces around suites
In-Reply-To: <1r8ybzcs7v.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87hdqok9i6.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1rfz68ely9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<876574k7du.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1r3c28ejis.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<5MWXc.228027$ht5.11749427@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<1rhdqnd3rm.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<fm%Xc.228352$qk5.11718706@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<1r8ybzcs7v.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <IB2Yc.228572$TK4.11323736@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote:

> indeed, C or C++ is no better in this respect, quite the opposite IMO.
> Paul McGuire illustrated the corresponding problem in C:
> 
>     db->update_name(person);
> 
>     if (is_student(person))
>         log("update student %s", person->name);
>         db->update_courses(person);
>     db->commit();

Sorry, I meant "C or C++, even with consistent use of braces", implying 
that using braces IMO in general doesn't help spotting this kind of bugs.

-- 
"Codito ergo sum"
Roel Schroeven


From michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk  Fri Aug 27 04:37:10 2004
From: michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk (Michael Sparks)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:37:10 +0100
Subject: mixing statements into J2
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E85@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
	<mailman.2497.1093578879.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgmscr$ojp$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:36:08 -0700, Robert Brewer wrote:
>> using:
>>     if test:
>>         memoize
>>     else:
>>         synchronize
>>     classmethod
>> def foo(self, *args):
>>     stuff(args)
..
> The above _should_ generate a SyntaxError on the 'if'.

With the current patch it does.


Michael.
-- 
Michael.Sparks at rd.bbc.co.uk    
British Broadcasting Corporation, Research and Development
Kingswood Warren, Surrey KT20 6NP

This message (and any attachments) may contain personal views
which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.




From tim.peters at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 23:28:41 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 23:28:41 -0400
Subject: ironic doctest bug?
In-Reply-To: <10htcuj6374u5d@corp.supernews.com>
References: <10hq7lsguiqfj93@corp.supernews.com>
	<10htcuj6374u5d@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <1f7befae04081420281617753e@mail.gmail.com>

[Alan G Isaac]
>> 1 items had failures:
>>    1 of  14 in doctest.Tester.rundict
>> 71 tests in 47 items.
>> 70 passed and 1 failed.
>> ***Test Failed*** 1 failures.

> This was the punchline of course.
> Am I overlooking something?

Mostly just this:

   http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

You didn't say which version of Python, or which OS, and didn't ask a
specific question despite a long original post.  Those points all
conspired to make the post ignorable.

My guess is that you're using some flavor of Python 2.3.  Your
original post contained the only relevant clue:

> python doctest.py -v

If you had run it without -v, my guess is that it would have passed.

Looking at the output with -v identifies the failing test when running
with -v.  That's

       >>> testmod(m1, isprivate=is_private)

in doctest.Tester.rundict's docstring.

Looking at the other tests in the docstring shows that they all add
verbose=0 to their testmod() call, and that this one was unique in not
doing so.  So someone was probably a teensy careless when they added
this test.  Change the test to

       >>> testmod(m1, isprivate=is_private, verbose=0)

so it looks like the others, and then it passes with or without -v.

It's too minor a bug to justify a new Python 2.3 release <wink>.  The
problem doesn't exist in Python CVS, so it won't happen in 2.4.


From artur_spruce at yahoo.com  Sun Aug  8 08:22:02 2004
From: artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR)
Date: 8 Aug 2004 05:22:02 -0700
Subject: Maybe, just maybe @decorator syntax is ok after all
References: <du7n017ni6o.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>
Message-ID: <b840abf4.0408080422.44fcf41c@posting.google.com>

Ville Vainio <ville at spammers.com> wrote in message news:<du7n017ni6o.fsf at mozart.cc.tut.fi>...
> It might just be that @decorator might not be all that bad. When you
> look at code that uses it it's not that ugly after all.

You know what, I'm starting to feel the same. Yesterday Anthony Baxter
mentioned this URL:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047112.html

where GvR says:

"""
Given that the whole point of adding decorator syntax is to move the
decorator from the end ("foo = staticmethod(foo)" after a 100-line
body) to the front, where it is more in-your-face, it should IMO be
moved all the way to the front.
"""

And I had the sudden feeling that I finally got it. You see, for me,
the @decorator syntax is a declaration - first thing that came to my
mind was Pascal's "forward". So it says "take the def that follows and
insert a (old style) decoration line in the code after it." Note that
here the "def" is recursive - it may have other @decorators before it.

I'm not sure I'm making myself clear; my understanding of it is more
by feeling than by logic. So let's say that @decorator is like a
preprocessor directive. If we have:

@dec1
@dec2
def foo():
    pass

then after the first pass it becomes:

@dec2
def foo():
    pass

foo = dec1(foo)

and after the second:

def foo():
    pass

foo = dec2(foo)

foo = dec1(foo)

BTW, this interpretation leaves some space for future manipulation of
if/for/while/try statements.

Speaking of loop statements, they have an optional else clause that
isn't obvious either. It means "do this if there was no break-exit
from the loop." Yet for me the obvious meaning would be "if there were
no loop passes" - that is, the while condition was false on the first
entry or the for list was empty. I think the word "finally" would be
more to the point here (and it's a keyword anyway).

I think having some obscurity in the language is inevitable. The
present way of applying decorators (x = decor(x)) is equally cryptic
to a newbie as the @decor syntax will be - first you have to know what
a decorator is. There even aren't any decorators used in the standard
lib - or at least grep doesn't show any static/classmethod rebindings.

> My chief worry was throwing away one of the few unused ascii symbols,
> but if we take a look at perl6, there is a lot of promising unicode
> symbols to choose from in the future ;-). Also, there is still @(),
> @#, @{} and others in the hypothetical event BDFL would like to use @
> for future features like macros, ruby blocks or whatever.

And we still have ? and $, plus the backtick (`) that now is for repr,
but in Python 3000 will hopefully be for "os.popen.read(); ...close()"
like in bash for example, or something equally useful.

> So I would vote +0 for @decorator if we were in the parallel universe
> where that mattered. Two days ago I was -10.

Same here. I'm opposed to dictatorship in general - I grew up behind
the Iron Curtain - but the BDFL's decisions so far were mostly
beneficial, so I'll live with whatever he decides (I'm not saying this
as seriously as it sounds).

AdSR


From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz  Tue Aug 31 01:54:57 2004
From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:54:57 +1200
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
In-Reply-To: <slrncj7hhh.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4PGdnfsOfdDPi63cRVn-tA@speakeasy.net>
	<slrncj1745.t5q.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<41337FC9.8070902@hotmail.com>
	<slrncj7hhh.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
Message-ID: <2pii5kFl6rr2U1@uni-berlin.de>

Andre Majorel wrote:
> If by unixism, you mean any operating system that has a
> hierarchical filesystem and byte stream files, yes. But that
> would include quite a few other non-Unix operating systems,
> including Mac OS 9, Prologue and probably everything else this
> side of CP/M (DOS 1.x shall be deemed to be CP/M).

CP/M files weren't quite exactly streams of bytes. They
were more like streams of 128-byte blocks (hence the
kludge of using control-Z to mark the end of a text
file).

-- 
Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept,
University of Canterbury,	
Christchurch, New Zealand
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg



From ben at benlast.com  Tue Aug 17 08:46:02 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:46:02 +0100
Subject: how to display unicode in a Label in Tkinter
In-Reply-To: <cfsckk$v2d$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPCEACCEAA.ben@benlast.com>

Ali wrote:
> > So how I write in Arabic?

Eric answered:
> There must be another simpler way, based on the standard encoding
> used when
> using Arabic characters. But I don't know this encoding, so I
> cannot help you
> much here. I also don't know how you can input these characters
> in a computer
> (especially in a source file, where the character flow is from
> left to right)

The easiest way I have found to have Unicode strings is not to embed them in
the source at all, because every so often I'll find that I've passed my
source through a Python editor or tool that doesn't grok encodings and all
my embedded characters have been mangled.  Instead, I write the Unicode
strings in an editor (such as the humble Notepad) that supports saving UTF8
files, and save them that way, usually in a simple "keyword=value" format so
that my Python code can open up the file, read in the strings, decode them
from UTF-8 and there's your Unicode all available.

To echo other comments, though, AFAIK, TkInter doesn't do non-Western
languages very well, if at all.  A contact of mine has reported more success
with wxPython, but the projects I'm on now don't venture outside the Latin
encodings, so I can't advise as to whether Arabic is supported.

Having moaned somewhat there; I have to say that Python has about the sanest
Unicode handling of any environment I've yet had to use in anger... I
learned i18n in C on VAX/VMS systems, the hard way...

regards
ben



From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Mon Aug 23 00:08:16 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 00:08:16 -0400
Subject: Getting benifits of database transactions in an OO way?
In-Reply-To: <IdKdnQEF1KSZZbXcRVn-vw@cablespeedwa.com>
References: <2oq8pmFdd2nfU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<IdKdnQEF1KSZZbXcRVn-vw@cablespeedwa.com>
Message-ID: <2ot8mtFe30vqU1@uni-berlin.de>

Jeffrey Froman wrote:
> You might want to take a look at http://sqlobject.org (transaction examples
> provided in the documentation as well.)

Wow, nice. Thanks a lot for the link.


From pythos  Mon Aug 23 23:09:05 2004
From: pythos (pythos)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 23:09:05 -0400
Subject: Help with trapping an exception
References: <qe3li01voq3qpj67sldp899qi2ufmpdvu9@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2252.1093310029.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <hubli01tmdc36ef7v6q0qk78v6ov42ife1@4ax.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:13:48 -0400, Phil Frost <indigo at bitglue.com> wrote:

>Take a look at the traceback standard module to format exceptions
>nicely.

Ah, this looks like what I want.  Although when I use either
traceback.print_tb(sys.exc_info()[2]) or traceback.print_exc(), it only shows
the most recent call in the traceback.  This is what it shows:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "C:\Documents and Settings\xxxxx\rot.PspScript", line 36, in
ProcessDirectory
    App.Do(Environment, 'FileOpen', {


Why doesn't it show everything, which would be:

 Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "c:\Documents and Settings\xxxxx\rot.PspScript", line 79, in Do
     os.path.walk(baseDirectory, ProcessDirectory, Environment)
   File "c:\Program Files\xxxxxx\Python Libraries\lib\ntpath.py", line 318, in
 walk
     func(arg, top, names)
   File "c:\Documents and Settings\xxxxx\rot.PspScript", line 36, in
 ProcessDirectory
     App.Do(Environment, 'FileOpen', {
 NameError: global name 'Environment' is not defined



From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 02:25:43 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 08:25:43 +0200
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<mailman.2455.1093539321.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<gqudnRoo8q-Cg7PcRVn-tA@comcast.com>
	<7xoekx4wit.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<mailman.2458.1093543085.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj5cs7.wqxd1s1ec69umN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xfz69oc1f.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj5eom.gbo9f512upip0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7x1xhtd2o3.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <1gj63xf.qhd5o31s1o71jN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:

> aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:
> > Type declarations make me cringe, but if I *had* to have them then 'b as
> > int' is the best syntax I could imagine for them offhand.
> 
> b:int worked ok in Pascal.

And "b as integer" works quite reasonably in Visual Basic -- I'm not a
VB fan, by any means, but that particular tidbit of VB syntax sugar is
(IMHO) quite good.

A precedent for a dual use of AS, quite close to what we'd have here, is
in SQL.  "SELECT foo AS bar" is a local renaming, just like Python's
"import foo as bar"; "CAST(foo AS integer)" is type coercion.  Note that
both SQL uses are good parallel for some of the 'overloads' of 'AS' in
English;-).

All in all, the argument that declarator syntax 'might' end up doing
double use for typing purposes is hardly a strong deterrent to the use
of keyword 'as' in declarator syntax.


Alex


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Fri Aug  6 16:35:42 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 06 Aug 2004 22:35:42 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no> <4112AC7B.1060508@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806egka@bombur.uio.no> <411343D7.3020604@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806c08y@bombur.uio.no> <411353A3.8090502@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806beaz@bombur.uio.no> <4113759E.2070405@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806rjgh@bombur.uio.no> <4113E755.8060205@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040806qxkg@bombur.uio.no>

Martin v. L?wis wrote:
>Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
>> That sounds like it could have a severe performance impact.  However,
>> maybe the compiler can set a flag if there are any such strings when it
>> converts parsed strings from Unicode back to the file's encoding.  
> 
> Yes. Unfortunately, line information is gone by that time, so you can't
> point to the place of the error anymore.

True.  One could recompile with a str7bit option to catch it earlier,
or one could make str7bit a compiler directive - then the unidentified
string will in practice be the doc string above the directive.

>> I can't say I like the idea, though.  It assumes Python retains the
>> internal implementations of 'coding:' which is described in PEP 263:
>> Convert the source code to Unicode, then convert string literals back
>> to the source character set.
> 
> It's a pretty safe assumption, though. It is the only reasonable
> implementation strategy.

I disagree:

- For a number of source encodings (like utf-8:-) it should be easy
  to parse and charset-convert in the same step, and only convert
  selected parts of the source to Unicode.

- I think the spec is buggy anyway.  Converting to Unicode and back
  can change the string representation.  But I'll file a separate
  bug report for that.

>> Sure.  I wasn't protesting against people using of escape sequences.
>> I was protesting against requiring that people use them.
> 
> But isn't that the idea of the str7bit feature? How else would you
> put non-ASCII bytes into a string literal while simultaneously turning
> on the 7-bit feature?

Sorry, I thought you were speaking of promising a __future__ when all
string literals are required to be 7-bit or u'' literals.

To use non-ASCII str literals with the str7bit feature turned on:
- insert a 'str7bit:False' declaration in the file, or
- use the s'8-bit str literal' syntax I suggested.

-- 
Hallvard


From s.mail at westo.at  Thu Aug 26 14:16:25 2004
From: s.mail at westo.at (Stefan Stolz)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:16:25 +0200
Subject: Mysql in Python?
References: <2p6m32Fh7o9oU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<mailman.2460.1093543565.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2p6nnpFhoue1U1@uni-berlin.de>

Jeremy Jones wrote:

> I'm not sure, but I believe that MySQLdb is included in this project:
> 
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/mysql-python
> 
> (which appears to have been updated only a couple of months back, so
> that's good news).
Thank you, but i don`t understand why there is nothing implemented in
Python?

I was a little konfused after reading the doku of mysql-python, because
there the author says its better to use MySQLdb ;-) ?!?!
-- 
Gr?sse
Stolz Stefan


From p_s_oberoi at hotmail.com  Sat Aug  7 10:53:31 2004
From: p_s_oberoi at hotmail.com (Paramjit Oberoi)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 09:53:31 -0500
Subject: Plotting histograms, scatter plots in Python
References: <d1f3d1d3.0408061018.137b600f@posting.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.06.21.13.49.266713@hotmail.com>
	<7S4Rc.49729$Vm1.1245341@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.07.14.53.29.761625@hotmail.com>

>> Pychart:
>> http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Yasushi_Saito/pychart/
> 
> The charts look good, but the source code links fail.

I just tried downloading it, and they seem to work for me...


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 14:07:43 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:07:43 +0200
Subject: Alex Martelli: Welcome back!
References: <slrnciunmu.tkp.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
Message-ID: <1gj70s0.cc0xt0bs9aduN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Dave Benjamin <ramen at lackingtalent.com> wrote:

> It's nice to see you around here again!

Thanks!  Hope I can stay a while...


Alex


From elbertlev at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 23 12:42:52 2004
From: elbertlev at hotmail.com (Elbert Lev)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 09:42:52 -0700
Subject: 2 GB files
References: <mailman.2184.1093245901.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <9418be08.0408230842.3484a321@posting.google.com>

"Roman Yakovenko" <roman.yakovenko at actimize.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.2184.1093245901.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> > Elbert Lev wrote:
> > > From postings to this group and other resources I 
>  understood that the
> > > only way to make Python programs to work correctly with files lager
> > > then 2 GB is building Python interpreter with some "magic spell"
> > > defines. 
> 
> It is not true. Sometimes I am working with files 6G+. Python is my only 
> way to look into those files.
> 
> Roman

I'm terribly sorry. There was a "mix" of several versions. You are
right it does autodetect.


From Joe.Smith at inwap.com  Sun Aug 29 07:05:32 2004
From: Joe.Smith at inwap.com (Joe Smith)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 11:05:32 GMT
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
In-Reply-To: <4130654c$0$19703$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<776e0325.0408260433.449660c8@posting.google.com>
	<412dfc1c$0$65599$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<86hdqpriww.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<412e199e$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<jdoherty-2708041631070001@192.168.2.178>
	<4130654c$0$19703$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>
Message-ID: <0MiYc.109993$TI1.98802@attbi_s52>

jmfbahciv at aol.com wrote:

>>AND HOW MANY SPACES PER TAB STOP?
> 
> Eight.  Now talk about indenting skip returns...that one
> required blood transfusions.  [emoticon looks at list of n.g.]
> I guess not many will understand.

I understand.
The style I used for PDP-10 macro assembly language was
   *) Indent two spaces for error return from subroutine or UUO (or jsys)
   *) Indent one space for instructions that skip or may skip.

The other point of contention was what to put between the opcode and
its arguments; space vs tab.  I had some TECO macros that would
undo the damage after pristine code had been munged by someone
not conforming to style.  :-)
	-Joe


From cpl.19.ghum at spamgourmet.com  Sun Aug  8 05:44:00 2004
From: cpl.19.ghum at spamgourmet.com (Harald Massa)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 09:44:00 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu> <cf3b56$gt6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>
	<du7smayidxy.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>
Message-ID: <Xns953F7763A998cpl19ghumspamgourmet@195.20.224.116>

Ville,

just to add some:

> I guess this depends on the developer. I can't help lovin' stuff like
> genexps that are coming in 2.4, 

yeah, I am really looking forward to them. List comprehensions are a so 
natural way to express some situations, and with the additional elegance 
of "not having to lock memory" it will be even more phantastic.

Also ... the sets module, introduced with 2.3, I think. It is SO natural 
- many, many problems can be formulated within sets-algebra (find all 
customers who have X and Y ... just get the intersections of two sets). 
And with 2.4 sets will be a builtin, that shows me the commitment of the 
Python community that they will be supported for EVEN longer  than the 
usual many years of a stdlib module.

And: the decimals data type. When working in the financial industry, it 
is UNBELIEVABLE PHANTASTIC to finally get a feature that helped COBOL 
live THROUGH AGES. (while being the MOST UGLY chick on the block, COBOL 
allways had VERY WEALTHY boy friends - not being cool, but having a big 
car, big house...) - and now Python will be ONE OF THE FIRST really sexy 
chicks of programming languages that will have a DECIMAL type!!

Than: datetime, introduced with 2.3. Yes, there was mx.datetime before. 
Who has read a DBAPI-Database-Driver? "try: import mx.datetime ... 
except: print some wired error" --- with datetime in the standard lib  
there is no longer a need to download additional modules just to print 
nice dates. GREAT!!!

I do not understand at all what's that decorators thingy, but I know that 
girls often put some deco into flats and it really looks cosy after, so I 
assume that decorators are not on the dark side of the source. 

Maybe we should ask for a ternary decorator, because I learned that 
"ternary" and "decorator" triggers high emotions within the Python 
community.

I often struggle with encodings - and in growing versions of Python you 
can see that also Python does sth. more with encodings - allowing unicode 
in more and more places, growing "string types" instead , putting 
Encoding-Tags within source code. That's a healty relationship with a 
language, I feel, when the language and me are struggling with the same 
problems.

So: I am really looking forward to Python 2.4, decorated or not, I will 
take it.

Harald


From 1stpoint at zmailbox.net  Wed Aug  4 10:28:44 2004
From: 1stpoint at zmailbox.net (1stpoint)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 10:28:44 -0400
Subject: py2exe and os.popen
References: <94737de0df0675e750e306af1ae2e475@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>
Message-ID: <81bf1e736b63a30ce84eb7f6c7ddb29e@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>

I figured it out.  It wasn't os.popen afterall, I just forgot to include
the .exe that I needed.



From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Thu Aug 12 21:26:15 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 21:26:15 -0400
Subject: Rather than decorators, how about sections?
References: <mailman.1509.1092238688.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<411C12D4.7010400@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <10ho66lhatd1e74@news.supernews.com>


"Steve" <dippyd at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:411C12D4.7010400 at yahoo.com...
>
> Is there a simple primer for static and class methods
> and decorators and such that you can recommend?

It's cleverly hidden on the Python documentation
page, under "additional documentation."

http://www.python.org/doc/newstyle.html

At some point all of this should be integrated into
the standard documentation, but that task has been
hanging fire since 2.2.

John Roth




From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Fri Aug 27 14:51:30 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:51:30 -0700
Subject: allowing braces around suites
In-Reply-To: <1ry8k0d2az.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<tyf3c28ps1t.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
	<1ry8k0d2az.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <10iv0kid2ig9ka6@corp.supernews.com>

Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote:

>"pass" is a no-op, and should only be used when a suite is required,
>but the suite should do nothing.  you're proposing a convention saying
>
>   ''if "pass" appears in a suite which also contains other
>     expressions, the "pass" signals the end of the suite''
>
>that's a hack, and IMHO not worthy of a Python program.  not even Perl
>has anything like that, AFAIK.
>  
>

The irony of these being said in defense of adding braces (even optional 
ones) to Python is truly awe-inspiring.

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From JBrouwersAtProphICyDotCom at no.spam.net  Thu Aug 26 18:35:42 2004
From: JBrouwersAtProphICyDotCom at no.spam.net (Jean Brouwers)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:35:42 GMT
Subject: property puzzle
References: <78b6a744.0408260846.5dc5a0cf@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <260820041535594501%JBrouwersAtProphICyDotCom@no.spam.net>


Also, property needs bound methods to get, set, and delete, like

    status = property(self._get_status, self._set_status)

/Jean Brouwers


In article <78b6a744.0408260846.5dc5a0cf at posting.google.com>, george
young <gry at ll.mit.edu> wrote:

> [python 2.3.3, x86 linux, part of a substantial gtk/postgres app]
> I want a Run instance to have a Status instance which inherits
> from Observable. I want to be able to say:
>  
>     thisrun.status = 'planned'
> 
> and have thisrun's _set_status do side-effects and then the status
> object's setter incorporate the new value as it's new state.
> But the setter functions never seem to get called. 
> Am I using "property" wrong?
> 
> class Observable:              #("observer" software pattern)
>     def __init__(self):
>         self.observers = []
>     def register(self, func, *args, **kw):
>         self.observers.append((func, args, kw))
>     def notify(self):
>         for func, args, kw in self.observers: func(*args, **kw)
> 
> class RunStatus(Observable):
>      def __init__(self, val):
>          Observable.__init__(self)
>          self._value = val
>      def set(self, newval):
>          print 'RunStatus.set'
>          self._value = newval
>          self.notify()
>      def get(self):
>          print 'RunStatus.get'
>          return self._value
>     
> class Run:
>     def __init__(self):
>         self._status = RunStatus('planned')
>     def _get_status(self):
>         return self._status
>     def _set_status(self, val):
>         # do various things with val...
>         self._status.set(val)
>     status = property(_get_status, _set_status)
>     
> if __name__ == '__main__':
>     def stat_display():
>         print 'display to screen: r.status=', r.status
>     r = Run()
>     r.status.register(stat_display) #many registers in real app.
>     r.status='hold'
>     print 'status=', r.status
>     print r._status.observers
> 
> Status needs to be a real and persistant object so it's
> observers persist, but needs it's value changed simply, like
>    r.status = 'something'
> 
> [flames about using string values for what is semantically a
>  six valued enum *are* welcome in a separate thread...]


From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 19 12:52:31 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:52:31 -0400
Subject: Interface to win32 resources
In-Reply-To: <2ojvrqFbj9ttU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <2ojvrqFbj9ttU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <r_idncY3e9fIR7ncRVn-sQ@powergate.ca>

Paul Watson wrote:
> I would rather use a module that comes with Python that to require the user
> to install win32all.  This would reduce complexity and possibly resistance
> to using a Python application.

If you use py2exe (or an equivalent), and for that matter use a
proper installer-builder such as InnoSetup, then there will be
no resistance to using a Python application merely because it
requires some of the pywin32 (formerly win32all) stuff.  Note
you could also use ctypes (also not part of the core though) which
is quite a bit smaller than pywin32.

If you have a "real" application such that the users might actually
resist using it for such a reason, there's no reason they even
have to know it was done with Python.

-Peter


From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 12 16:35:20 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:35:20 -0400
Subject: wiki update: decorator syntax breakdown
In-Reply-To: <d11dcfba.0408121048.2dafb650@posting.google.com>
References: <d11dcfba.0408111637.30c8b012@posting.google.com>
	<411ac3cc$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<d11dcfba.0408121048.2dafb650@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <411bd488$1@nntp.zianet.com>

Steven Bethard wrote:
> Mark Bottjer <mark_bottjer at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<411ac3cc$1 at nntp.zianet.com>...
>>class C:
>>   def c(self):
>>     meta:
>>       classmethod
>>       doc('This is a function!')
>>     pass
> 
> 
> I think this would fall under:
> Indicator:     keyword: 'meta'
> Location:      post-def
> List Notation: One per line
> Indentation:   Indent decorators only
> 
> Right?  I added 'meta' to the keyword section.

I think so, yes. Thanks.

   -- Mark


From spamtrap at dot-app.org  Tue Aug 31 16:13:36 2004
From: spamtrap at dot-app.org (Sherm Pendley)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 16:13:36 -0400
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
In-Reply-To: <aN2Zc.10226$QJ3.5466@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4PGdnfsOfdDPi63cRVn-tA@speakeasy.net>
	<slrncj1745.t5q.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<41337FC9.8070902@hotmail.com>
	<slrncj7hhh.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<p7v7j0plcfbden593l1irfprmfkp4d3k51@4ax.com>
	<slrncj8m5n.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<%T%Yc.29567$Es2.11957889@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<du7k6vfnvx9.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi> <4134AC88.56452265@yahoo.com>
	<aN2Zc.10226$QJ3.5466@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <8KadnRWhvb1sRqncRVn-tg@adelphia.com>

red floyd wrote:

> Let the editor flame wars begin!

Anyone else remember Blackbeard?

sherm--

-- 
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
Hire me! My resume: http://www.dot-app.org


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Thu Aug 26 09:50:39 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:50:39 GMT
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgkeio$spo$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2411.1093517690.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<du7brgyt8hm.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi> <opsdb950eb1v4ijd@musicbox>
Message-ID: <PUlXc.46014$xi6.20253@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"Pierre-Fr?d?ric Caillaud" <peufeu at free.fr> wrote in message
news:opsdb950eb1v4ijd at musicbox...
>
> I'll vote for it.
> Can we insert conditional expressions in the decorator list ?
>
> On 26 Aug 2004 15:00:05 +0300, Ville Vainio <ville at spammers.com> wrote:
>
> > I vote FOR on the J2 syntax.
> >
>
Only in ternary operator format. :)




From Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com  Fri Aug  6 05:57:33 2004
From: Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com (Ames Andreas (MPA/DF))
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:57:33 +0200
Subject: Decorator syntax
Message-ID: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA1C@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>

Hi,

thanks for your help.

Terry Reedy wrote:

> That particular syntax -- deco in parens and jammed up against was
> never proposed.  A similar syntax -- no parens and a space was.
> Guide said a) he thought there would be parser issues and b) this
> would cause problems with all support tools that assume that the
> next name after def is the function name.

I just found this style appropriate because it thus looks like a
parameter to "def", which it, the decorator, somehow is, if I
understand correctly.  The same could be done to "class", but
unfortunately not to (instance) variables(, because they have no
keyword for declaration).  I could even imagine

class<deco1> Test:
             def<deco2> test1(self):
                        self.i<deco3> = "foo"

and yes, I'm coming from a C/C++ background, if you haven't realized
yet and, what's worse, I still like those :-).

> Also, some of the major proponents want parameterized decorators and
> multiple decorators, not just a different position for staticmethod
> and classmethod.  So

I can't see a problem here.  If I understand correctly, decorators are
meant to be some sort of callables, so if you need parameters you can
very easily use functors (just bear with my C++ heritage once again
;-) or however those classes with a __call__ method are called in
python.  That's exactly what I use functors regularly for.

> For what its worth: 1) this issue and multiple alternatives has been
> discussed since at least Jan 03.  Since then, it has possibly taken
> more devel time, and probably more Pydev postings than any single
> other issue; 2) the PEP is broken and Guido knows it.  We'll see if

Then I can very well understand that almost everyone seems quite
emotional about this thing.  Sorry for beating a dead horse here, but
I just wanted to insert my ? 0,02.


cheers,

andreas

From insert at spam.here  Fri Aug 20 16:09:54 2004
From: insert at spam.here (Doug Holton)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:09:54 -0500
Subject: just ignore Guido's "rejections" [Re: Alternative decorator
 syntax decision]
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2077.1093031462.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <wRhVc.23879$Mt5.1140091@wagner.videotron.net>	<mailman.2014.1092990953.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nPlVc.23904$Mt5.1223926@wagner.videotron.net>	<2uadnbqpMuI1krvcRVn-sg@comcast.com>
	<mailman.2077.1093031462.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <s6adnbDz3dsMx7vcRVn-hQ@comcast.com>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:50:18 -0500, Doug Holton <insert at spam.here> wrote:
> 
>>We can safely ignore Guido's "rejections" when deciding upon an
>>alternative to agree upon.  Many people felt his rejections of C1 (a
>>longtime community favorite), E1 and other alternatives were wrong.
>>http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/048134.html
> 
> 
> Uh, what? No, you _can't_ ignore Guido's rejections - if you really decide
> that you must have a form he's objected to, you need a _damn_ strong
> argument to back that up. A "longtime community favorite" doesn't mean
> a thing - this is language design, not American Idol - that a lot of people
> like it makes no difference.

Um, yes.  The point is to determine what the *community* decides on, and 
*then* present that to Guido.  You're just helpping confound this second 
vote even more.  Some people aren't voting for what they think is best, 
but what they think Guido hasn't "rejected".  That is ridiculous. 
You'll end up with a syntax that nobody really ever liked most, even Guido.


From tim.hochberg at ieee.org  Tue Aug 24 17:32:38 2004
From: tim.hochberg at ieee.org (Tim Hochberg)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:32:38 -0700
Subject: J2 paper 0.2.1
In-Reply-To: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E55@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E55@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <cggc5n$1a2$1@sea.gmane.org>

Robert Brewer wrote:
> First, thanks for the comments!
> 
> Paul Moore wrote:
> 
>>1. I differ on the "it doesn't matter what the keyword is" statement.
>>   On the contrary, my view could completely change depending on the
>>   keyword - I'd loathe "predef", whereas "using" is acceptable to me.
>>   Putting the proposal forward *without* an agreed keyword isn't
>>   (IMHO) fair to people who have this view.
> 
> 
> I understand your emotion, now, but not your reasoning, and in the
> absence of that, I can't generate a fix for the proposal. If you could
> go into more detail *why* you would loathe predef, it would go a long
> way toward allowing a stronger statement in the doc. I feel "using" has
> positives, but I don't know what the negatives of "predef" are. Happy to
> make it stronger if there's an argument in addition to passion. Without
> a logical argument, such a position comes down to "it's ugly", which
> Guido has specifically said he doesn't care about or want to hear.

I agree with Paul that the choice of keyword *is* important. A 
misleading keyword is worse than cryptic punctuation. The keyword is 
lying, while the punctuation is merely silent.

I also agree that predef reads poorly. I presume it's meant to imply 
something like preample or header, but I read it as predefine, which 
makes me think of some sort of evil forward declaration, not a 
decorator. It also just feels wrong to me, not that that carries much 
weight.

Not that I'm wild about "using" either. It seems a legitimate gripe that 
'def...using' reads slightly better than the proposed 'using..def' 
syntax, which is probably going to lead to some thinkos down the line. 
Still, even with those gripes "using" is marginally better than "@"

Sadly I don't have any better ideas for a keyword. While I'm on the 
topic, let me point out some of the other keywords mentioned in the 
proposal that read poorly. "amend", "extend" and "qualify" all share a 
common flaw that in normal usage the thing being amended/extended/etc 
should follow the word. Thus the natural reading of:

amend:
     foo
def bar():
     ...

is somewhere between "huh?" and "clearly bar is used to amend foo."


[CHOP]

-tim

P.S. I commend you on the proposal, it's quite good.



From peter at engcorp.com  Wed Aug 18 21:08:00 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 21:08:00 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <cg04hn$eq3$1@panix1.panix.com>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<cg04hn$eq3$1@panix1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <aqOdnXliyaLvYL7cRVn-jA@powergate.ca>

Aahz wrote:

> In article <4123874C.8000304 at chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>,
> Robin Becker  <robin at reportlab.com> wrote:
> 
>>[...]
> Not too many late-30s, I guess.  I've been programming Python for six
> years, started at nine years old with BASIC.

Hi Aahz... I'll keep you company there.

Started with APL, technically, but didn't have a clue what I
was doing.  Around eleven years old I think.  Then BASIC etc.
Python for about five years, but greatly saddened it wasn't
for much longer (because of all the time wasted, especially
on Java and C++).

-Peter


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 09:28:49 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 23:28:49 +1000
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <cfqq7l$a9p$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <20040814153534.8AC171E4007@bag.python.org>	<D65D4928-EEBF-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>	<mailman.1687.1092584144.5135.python-list@python.org>	<frydnbvSiJeXF4LcRVn-oA@giganews.com>	<cfo7cg$k7p$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204081522014bb9c988@mail.gmail.com>	<cfq1p1$bde$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed204081608247149972d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cfqq7l$a9p$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204081706284b20ea8d@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:17:42 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Q: What if I had a metaclass that would make any method private whose
> name started with two underbars (by, I dunno, mangling the name
> somehow)?  Would you consider that a hack too? ;-)

Damn straight - that's awful. Why on earth would someone implement
that? 

Sorry, burned out on decorators for now.


From python473 at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 31 15:30:26 2004
From: python473 at yahoo.com (John Howard)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 12:30:26 -0700
Subject: file access in jythonc
References: <9eabe547.0408210611.d5e54f7@posting.google.com>
	<9eabe547.0408301406.2543e691@posting.google.com>
	<ch09pi$dh2$04$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <9eabe547.0408311130.73beef80@posting.google.com>

"Diez B. Roggisch" <deetsNOSPAM at web.de> wrote in message news:<ch09pi$dh2$04$1 at news.t-online.com>...
> > I've looked up the references below and done several searches of
> > filepermissions. It seems to me that for jythonc to have any use in
> > development of "practical" products, programs have to be able to
> > access local files easily. If not, then this, in my opinion, is going
> > to be a MAJOR issue for jython!! I love the syntax and ease of
> > programming in python, but if it cannot be used for useful programs,
> > why bother?! BTW, how does java handle this? Is the same problem there
> > also?
> 
> Don't blame jython for things it hasn't to do with - as Alan said, java puts
> restrictions on the things an applet can do. That restrictions can be
> relaxed by signing the applet - go search google for stuff like java,
> applet, signing, local, file, access.
> 
> A common mistake for jython users is to think that there must be special
> jython related documentation for their problems - but usually its not, for
> the simple reason that there are tons of docs on java out there. Jython
> docs only cover the differences. So go look for java solutions to your
> problems, and then feel the joy of using java-classes with a language
> without checked exceptions and what not that makes coding in java so ...
> verbose.

So...are you saying it can be done? That is, a IE can access a local
file (assuming it's there, of course) using a jythonc product? 
Question is -- HOW???


From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Sun Aug  8 00:55:08 2004
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 21:55:08 -0700
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar, but for what exactly?
In-Reply-To: <YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
Message-ID: <4115b53a$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

Robert wrote:

> I have read a few Python blogs and not a one is taking the decorator syntax
> in a good way.
classmethod and staticmethod were introduced some time ago, to provide
a mechanism for getting to such effects.  At the time there was no clear
syntax to use that "felt right."  In the meantime people have used these
features to good effect despite the clunky way you used them.  At this
point there would probably be a small riot (or at least a large whine)
if these two were removed.

When I first came to Python, I was delighted to see that Idle gave me
function clues not only for the system code, but for the code _I_ wrote.
Since it takes discipline to write comments that may never be read, it
was delightful to finally see an immediate reward for doing a little
documentation work -- I could help myself on my own utility functions.

However, there are more and more uses of the docstring for things other
than documentation.  At this point, I see more and more docstring uses
as "cybercrud" -- The only easy function annotation is the docstring so
all ambitious program annotation schemes use it.  There are good reasons
for wanting to be able to annotate functions and methods, but precious
few good reasons for polluting the document strings in order to do so.

Decorators are a way out.  I don't know about the syntax, it looked bad
when I first saw it, but like some others, I welcome _almost_any_syntax_
for decorators.  Not, so much, because I want to use decorators.  I just
want others to stop using docstrings for non-documentation purposes.  In
fact, I don't even really like the unittest convention of using method
names to identify test methods -- I prefer a language where the what you
call a thing does not affect how it works.

> The Python of 1.5.2 simplicity will be long gone.
Well, there was a lot to like even then, but I'd hate to give up what
we now have -- you can do things in a much more functional style now,
with nested scopes.  Would you really like to go back to three-strikes
and you are out symbol lookup?  This language has changed at a good
pace, and (quite surprisingly) slowly to a more consistent model (a
major coup in language design).  The aesthetic that has driven that
change suggests that this might be the right syntax for declarators.
I know I wouldn't have done nearly as well as Guido and gang at making
language decisions.

I certainly intend to take this alpha period as a time to experiment
with decorators and see if the syntax grows on me; I suggest others
do the same.  Give it its best chance; you may become a fan.  Several
of the py-dev people claim they have already gone from distaste to
support.

-- 
-Scott David Daniels
Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 11:09:28 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:09:28 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>
	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:40:18 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
> 
>>>IMO, to change it inside of a function def should be (but isn't) as easy
>>>as...
>>>
>>>  >>> def foo():
>>>  ...     """ I am foo """
>>>  ...     __doc__ = __doc__ + 'indeed'
>>>
>>>Paul
>>
>>Yes.  Not only do I follow, but I think we came to exactly the same
>>place, from very different directions, and coming from what I sense is
>>very different backgrounds.
>>
>>Its just that I don't think many others seem to find that as
>>interesting as I happen to.
> 
> 
> Not so much that, as running out of ways to restate myself. The
> proposed syntax above still requires magic handling of double-under
> variables in a function, and a new namespace. I can't see how you can
> think that this is a _good_ thing.

The function does *not* get a new namespace!  Let me stress this point a 
little further.  We would simply be moving __xxx__ variables *out of* 
the function's local variable namespace to where they belong, the 
namespace of the function itself --- /the same namespace that __doc__ 
lives in./

As such, the function *body* would have no more access to __doc__ than 
it does now.  Consider the following

   def foo():
      """ foo's docstring """
      __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'
      __version__ = '0.1'
      __features__ = memoized, synchronized
      # Above this line is the function's declaration section.
      # Below this line is where the function's body starts.
      var1 = 10
      print __doc__          # error!  __doc__ is not in local namespace
      print var1             # ok.


Paul



From rnd at onego.ru  Fri Aug 20 04:34:41 2004
From: rnd at onego.ru (Roman Suzi)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:34:41 +0400 (MSD)
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <a9iVc.23882$Mt5.1152415@wagner.videotron.net>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<a9iVc.23882$Mt5.1152415@wagner.videotron.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408201231070.6184@suzi.com.onego.ru>


My vote:

C4 A1 J2

(Though, J2 with different keyword, not "decorate")


Sincerely yours, Roman A.Suzi
-- 
 - Petrozavodsk - Karelia - Russia - mailto:rnd at onego.ru -



From grante at visi.com  Fri Aug 13 10:23:45 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 14:23:45 GMT
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <411ccef1$0$65606$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-13, beliavsky at aol.com <beliavsky at aol.com> wrote:

> One of the most commmon reasons programmers cite for not
> trying Python is that indentation determines the program flow
> -- they think its weird.

True.  I thought it was weird when I read about it.  I'm not so
closed-minded that it prevented me from trying the language.

> I think programmers who actually try Python adapt quickly and
> do not find the indentation rules to be a problem.
>
> I wonder if there is a way to remove this initial barrier. Could an
> alternate source form be defined,

Please no!!!  If you want a different language _use_ a different
language.  Don't mangle Python into something else.

> so that there are matching if-endif and for-next constructs
> instead of significant indentation? The alternate source form
> and the current form would result in exactly the same .pyc
> file.

Sounds horrible.

> I'm not saying that Python's use of indentation is bad, just
> that it stops many programmers from trying it.

Oh well.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  We have DIFFERENT
                                  at               amounts of HAIR --
                               visi.com            


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Fri Aug 27 22:07:43 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 02:07:43 GMT
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no><e69d3ed204082708585d615e54@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.2551.1093656430.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <PNRXc.38107$v86.26916@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"Kjetil Torgrim Homme" <kjetilho at ifi.uio.no> wrote in message
news:mailman.2551.1093656430.5135.python-list at python.org...
> I'll write a PEP, but it will have to wait until next week.  thank you
> for your feedback!
>
Kjetil -

I hate to see you waste the effort.  If you look back through the archives,
you'll see that some form of "let's add braces to Python" proposal comes up
from the newcomer ranks every couple of months.  Almost always, the proposal
is combined with some comments about "my editor can't handle indenting and
outdenting properly."  Before you invest the time putting your case
together, I strongly suggest you review the comments and responses that have
already been put forth on this issue.  And be sure that the Python community
does not need to be educated about what "real world" code looks like.

Please consider the possibility that bracelessness is one of the language
features you need to come to grips with as part of "embracing" a new
language.  It will be great to see your energy and enthusiasm put forth to
learning about and participating in discussions of new Python language
features, instead of rehashing old news.

-- Paul




From news at grauer-online.de  Tue Aug 31 07:44:42 2004
From: news at grauer-online.de (Uwe Grauer)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:44:42 +0200
Subject: Boa Constructor error
In-Reply-To: <875af5e2.0408271135.7a19a30f@posting.google.com>
References: <4712d252.0408260804.c69cfee@posting.google.com>
	<cgn9s9$ao5$1@online.de>
	<875af5e2.0408271135.7a19a30f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <ch1oba$h3l$1@online.de>

ake wrote:
> Uwe Grauer <news at grauer-online.de> wrote in message news:<cgn9s9$ao5$1 at online.de>...
> 
>>Parano wrote:
>>
>>>Hi
>>>
>>>I have a recurrent error in Boa Constructor, especially when I try to
>>>activate code completion: a message box reads "UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii'
>>>codec can't decode byte 0xaa in position 52: ordinal not in range(128)"
>>>I couldn't find any google resource on that error.
>>>
>>>I have Python 2.3.3 with Boa Construtor 0.3.1 on Mandrake Linux 10.
>>>wxPython is from wxPythonGTK-py2.3-2.5.2.7-RH9.i386.rpm
>>>I also tried wxPythonGTK2-py2.3-2.5.2.7-RH9.i386.rpm but had the same error.
>>>Those RPMs are from www.wxpython.org where it says that "install and use on
>>>my Mandrake 9.2 system without any troubles."
>>>
>>>Any tip on this? Thanks in advance
>>
>>Boa isn't ready for wxPython 2.5.x
>>Use wxPython 2.4.2.4 instead.
>>
>>Uwe
> 
> 
> Anyone know what's happening to Boa, there doesn't seem to have been a
> new version for over a year.
> 
> ?ke

Not true,

Boa 0.3 came just out.
Boa 0.3.1 is in CVS now.

Uwe


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Wed Aug 18 11:15:51 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:15:51 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <HoKUc.1985$Jn5.1214@fe1.texas.rr.com>

45.

The gory details can be found at http://c2.com/cgi/wiki/wiki?PaulMcGuire

-- Paul




From zathras at thwackety.com  Fri Aug 20 14:37:11 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:37:11 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E14@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408201911270.15385-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Robert Brewer wrote:

> Top-posting-to-help-quick-scanning: J2 J2 J2.
>
> To Paul, M. Sparks, et al: Since J2 is coming up frequently (and Guido
> did not immediately reject it when asked), I'm going to follow through
> and try to write a proposal this weekend for J2. I'll post it here for
> feedback (and of course, wait for the 'final' count of votes) before
> posting it on py-dev.

That's very much appreciated - thank you.

Aside from what keyword (which is more sugar than anything else), the
question of ordering of semantics springs to mind. The current
implementation is little more than syntactic sugar over the current
decorator code. This means that the following three examples have the
same meaning:

@generator
@staticmethod
def tokenise(stream):
   for t in stream:
      Yield(t)

decorate:
   generator
   staticmethod
def tokenise(stream):
   for t in stream:
      Yield(t)

def tokenise(stream):
   for t in stream:
      Yield(t)
tokenise=generator(staticmethod(tokenise))

Unless it's been done to death for the more verbose option, it MIGHT be
worth asking the question as to whether it might be more appropriate
to have the following 3 meaning the same thing:

@generator
@staticmethod
def tokenise(stream):
   for t in stream:
      Yield(t)

decorate:
   staticmethod
   generator
def tokenise(stream):
   for t in stream:
      Yield(t)

def tokenise(stream):
   for t in stream:
      Yield(t)
tokenise=generator(staticmethod(tokenise))

I say might for 2 reasons 1) looking at recent posts it looks like the
current order has had a lot of thought going into it 2) recent discussion
suggests this isn't trivial to get 100% right!

I'll leave the decision as to whether to include that up to you.

Once again thanks - I'll look at sorting out the (hopefully) minor
scoping issue with the current implementation.

Best Regards,


Michael.



From chrisdewinN0SPAM at yahoo.com.au  Sun Aug 15 01:56:21 2004
From: chrisdewinN0SPAM at yahoo.com.au (Dfenestr8)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 14:56:21 +0900
Subject: Is python ircbot.py slow?
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.15.05.56.08.307478@yahoo.com.au>

Hi.

As a personal project, I'm scripting my own irc bots for my own
chans on irc. It seems to me more fun than working out how to use an
eggdrop.

I'm using ircbot.py library, from the python-irclib package, by Joel
Rosdahl. But, I was talking to a friend of mine who has experience with
bots, and he says that python is way toooo slooow.

I haven't really looked into how they bench mark these things, but as far
as I know, python has always been considered a reasonably fast scripting
language. Even back when the standarad server was a p450 it was considered
fast enough.

Now that most servers are 1.2Ghz +, surely speed isn't even an issue?


From robin at SPAMREMOVEjessikat.fsnet.co.uk  Thu Aug 19 20:37:07 2004
From: robin at SPAMREMOVEjessikat.fsnet.co.uk (Robin Becker)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 01:37:07 +0100
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <412547B3.4020801@jessikat.fsnet.co.uk>

Paul McGuire wrote:
> There are a number of messages on the python-dev mail list that indicate
> that Guido is looking for some concensus to come from this list as to what
> *one* alternative syntax for decorators we would like him to consider in
> place of the @ syntax that is currently in 2.4a2.

....

Is there any discussion about which versions are currently legal python 
in Python-2.x x<4? I deal with lot's of cross version maintainance 
issues and the very worst are where the syntax makes it illegal even to 
compile the files. I believe that B is legal and has implementations for 
earlier pythons available, but are others?
-- 
Robin Becker


From frithiof.jensen at die_spammer_die.ericsson.com  Thu Aug  5 03:58:28 2004
From: frithiof.jensen at die_spammer_die.ericsson.com (Frithiof Andreas Jensen)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:58:28 +0200
Subject: DB beginner help
References: <slrnch3ms4.7mn.mordor@fly.srk.fer.hr>
Message-ID: <cesp5u$sha$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>


"Zeljko Vrba" <mordor at fly.srk.fer.hr> wrote in message
news:slrnch3ms4.7mn.mordor at fly.srk.fer.hr...

> In Perl I always use question marks and have no trouble switching the
> application between different databases. How do you guys do it in Python
> (of course, without rewriting all queries?)

Do your database work from a "connection" object and use a database-specific
function to create that object. Most of the time that will work with several
SQL databases.

I use a class wrapper for the specific database that is given a connection
object when the class is initialised. The wrapper hides the lameness of SQL
in some obvious situations - f.ex calculating a running balance like a bank
statement is easiest done by the application, but procedures will work also.

I also think that a dicts are a good way to "paste" information into SQL
query strings

It goes sort of like:

        # open the stock database and insert the information.
        try:
            cursor = self.conn.cursor()
            cursor.execute(
                """
                INSERT INTO stocks (ticker, exchange, stockName,
stockDescription)
                VALUES ('%(Ticker)s', '%(Exchange)s', '%(stockName)s,
'%(stockDescription)s)
                """ % colkey)
        except:
            log.error(
                """
                Failed to create new Entry for %(Ticker)s, on %(Exchange)s'
                """ % colkey, exc_info=True)
            raise
        else:
            # account opened.
            self.commit(True)
            log.info('Entry Created for %(Ticker)s, on %(Exchange)s'
                     % colkey)
        # done
        return None

..... Funny how every amateur programmer seem to dabble in stocks :-)

The "connection" is the standardised way of representing a database as an
object in Python. *How* to get the connection is database-dependent. You
might also be bitten by the various interpretations of SQL in the underlying
databases; Time/Date fields are always dubious, some databases only work
with few data types, even Strings Only(!), and some corners of SQL like
CHECK constraints (PySQLite) and even FOREIGN KEY constraints (Seen it on
something, I discarded for that reason - GadFly?) may not be enforced!






From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 18:31:48 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:31:48 -0500
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <cg55p6$ofq$1@news.wrc.xerox.com>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl> <ZFoVc.360$MR2.1503@news1.mts.net>
	<cg55p6$ofq$1@news.wrc.xerox.com>
Message-ID: <JYuVc.410$MR2.2033@news1.mts.net>

Mark Jackson wrote:
> Reid Nichol <rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com> writes:
> 
>>Gerrit Muller wrote:
> 
> 
>>>and then a quantum leap towards Python.
>>
>>You're aware that a quantum leap means a extremely small leap, right?
> 
> 
> Everything's relative - compared to the smallest possible change in the
> classical continuum, a quantum leap is *huge*.
> 

True, but this doesn't change the definition of the word.

from dictionary.reference.com:
The smallest amount of a physical quantity that can exist independently, 
especially a discrete quantity of electromagnetic radiation.


From cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca  Sun Aug 22 17:20:32 2004
From: cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca (David M. Cooke)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 17:20:32 -0400
Subject: 100 % portable ?
References: <rp_Vc.221989$xO.10939509@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<sl1nv1-7jm.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<qnkn00nkkhv.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
	<slrncii0l0.g4l.grante@isis.visi.com>
Message-ID: <qnk1xhyuaxr.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>

At some point, Grant Edwards <grante at visi.com> wrote:

> On 2004-08-22, David M. Cooke <cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca> wrote:
>
>> For Mac the preferred place files is ~/Documents, and for config files
>> is in ~/Library/<application name>/.
>
> Where to per-user config files go?

~ == $HOME, so that's per-user.

-- 
|>|\/|<
/--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
|David M. Cooke
|cookedm(at)physics(dot)mcmaster(dot)ca


From nospam at nowhere.hu  Sun Aug  8 05:30:07 2004
From: nospam at nowhere.hu (Miklós)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 11:30:07 +0200
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu> <cf4ms8$30v$1@news.uni-kl.de>
Message-ID: <cf4rs6$i3l$1@namru.matavnet.hu>


"Dominic" <nomail at nospam.no> wrote in message
news:cf4ms8$30v$1 at news.uni-kl.de...
>
> > Yes, I'm thorougly annoyed with creeping featurism.
> Well, you need not use them in your own code.
> Define and enforce a subset like it is common in ADA.

I've got a faint idea that this "subset" approach greatly contributes to the
unpopularity of Ada.
Once a core feature is in place, you just cannot insulate yourself from
that.

> Some postings about @decorators remind me of that
> old farmer who only eats stuff he knows already.

And perhaps he might stay healthy longer than that young one who eats each
and every new nutriment and colourful shiny berries. <wink>

Cheers,
  Mikl?s

>
>
> Ciao,
>   Dominic




From tmj at jarmania.com  Wed Aug 18 14:20:02 2004
From: tmj at jarmania.com (Tim Jarman)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:20:02 +0100
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <cg05vv$cnn$1@swifty.westend.com>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<cg05vv$cnn$1@swifty.westend.com>
Message-ID: <38F3D6D2-F143-11D8-A699-000D9366BF6A@jarmania.com>

42 (well, you knew that would be answer, didn't you? ;)

Tim J



From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Fri Aug 20 16:37:32 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 22:37:32 +0200
Subject: Fate of lambda, Functional Programming in Python...
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2064.1093020607.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <20040820163629.8DD4F1E401A@bag.python.org>
	<mailman.2064.1093020607.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2on5kpFcjmvdU2@uni-berlin.de>

Chas Emerick wrote:
> In a comment off a post on lambda-the-ultimate, I noticed this little 
> offhand remark:
> 
> '''IIRC GvR is going to kill the various lambda, map,filter & reduce 
> leaving just generator expressions/list comprehension.'''

NO!!!!111eins

Don't you think of the whole Python obfuscation lot?

Reinhold

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From b.niemann at betternet.de  Tue Aug 10 04:23:03 2004
From: b.niemann at betternet.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:23:03 +0200
Subject: session management
In-Reply-To: <p_idna1exa0QD4rcRVn-gg@speakeasy.net>
References: <mailman.1346.1091937744.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<p_idna1exa0QD4rcRVn-gg@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <cfa0fs$bf3$1@online.de>

A.M. Kuchling wrote:

> On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 14:02:14 +1000, 
> 	Ajay Brar <abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au> wrote:
> 
>>question is what happens when the client does not log out? what if he 
>>simply leaves the website? i can put a timer on the cookie, but how do i 
>>cleanup the temp files.
> 
> 
> You'd need to run a cron job that periodically cleans up sessions that
> haven't been touched in the last 8 or 24 or whatever hours.
He says, he has not direct access to the webserver - this will most 
likely ruleout cronjobs.
Instead check with every Nth request for expired session files, just 
like PHP does: http://www.php.net/manual/en/ref.session.php

c ya


From xah at xahlee.org  Wed Aug 25 17:56:06 2004
From: xah at xahlee.org (Xah Lee)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 14:56:06 -0700
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
Message-ID: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>

Larry Wall and Cults
(Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
200012

Dear readers,

Did you know that throughout history there's this thing called cult?
It is a very interesting phenomenon. I don't have time to expound and
teach, but will try to brief you.

These cults, are often lead by a single person. They form a group as
small as a dozen to multinational octopuses (such as
Scientology). Their creed varies from the mild in appearance
(Dianetics) to appalling (flat earth, extraordinary life-after-death,
impinging apocalypse scenarios, militant anti-government conspiracy,
diabolism with human sacrifices ...). Don't think that i'm citing from
some arcane books buried in libraries. These are real, and not
difficult to find in real life. Some of these cult leaders, are so
able to totally wash their member's brain, as to have them
autonomously swear and volunteer to die for the cause of the cult.
Occasionally, you'll even see mass suicide.

You know, the world is not made completely of rubes. Somebody
somewhere, will observe this phenomenon and study or report it as
is. Big brother organizations, such as the FBI, is keen on these and
very interested in benefiting from social psychology themselves. They
are recorded in books too. Ever wonder why the library houses so many
cold volumes of paper? This is one contributing reason. You might be
interested to verify that sometimes.

These brain-washing phenomenon, are not limited to fanatical
life-and-death or otherwise dire beliefs. You see it work in all
manners of human thought in the general sense. From culture formation
to fashion to commercialism.  Surely you have heard of Adolf Hitler
and his atrocities of genocide? I must alert you, that a single person
couldn't commit such a crime. You see, even if you are superman, you
can only kill few at a time. You see, it is the people, people like
you and me, who commit the killings willingly, by Hitler's
teaching. You may say: "no, i won't ever do such stupid thing", well
because you are very ignorant about social psychology. It is precisely
innocent people like you and (not) me, who were lead by the radical
leaders of supreme brain-washing abilities. The innocent mob were
fervent in their leader's vision and beliefs to commit anything. You
know the concept of war, right? We have two massive body of people
committed to cut off other people's head or otherwise stick a knife in
their bodies or bomb off an arm or leg. How did that happen? Well, it
starts with patriotism for people like you and (not) me.

Now, back to topic. In the computing world, there're also bad seeds
with colorful creed taking innocent mobs forming cults. The three
principal virtues of a programmer are Laziness, Impatience, and
Hubris. Yes?

How can we prevent heinous cults then? Stop bending truths. Education
and rationalism. I'm starting my own cult to exterminate morons on
this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl.

--------
This post is archived at
 http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/larry_wall_n_cults.html

Copyright 2000-2004 Xah Lee. Verbatim Reproduction for non-commercial
purposes is hereby granted provided proper credit is given.

 Xah
 xah at xahlee.org
 http://xahlee.org/PageTwo_dir/more.html


From webraviteja at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 25 21:06:50 2004
From: webraviteja at yahoo.com (Ravi Teja Bhupatiraju)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 18:06:50 -0700
Subject: Python Image Manipulation
References: <cginj5$vu3$1@news01.intel.com>
Message-ID: <b74e43f1.0408251706.7017193e@posting.google.com>

"Scott Brady Drummonds" <scott.b.drummonds.nospam at intel.com> wrote in message news:<cginj5$vu3$1 at news01.intel.com>...
> Can anyone recommend the easiest way of generating thumbnail images using a
> Python library?  I've seen that the Python Image Library (PIL) seems to do
> this but it isn't installed on my available systems.  I'd prefer to use
> something distributed with Python, if possible, but will install the library
> that makes this functionality easy as a second choice.
> 
> Thanks!
> Scott

The easiest way is using PIL. There is sample code in the PIL
documentation that you can use directly.


From mogmios at mlug.missouri.edu  Tue Aug 17 19:29:36 2004
From: mogmios at mlug.missouri.edu (Michael)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:29:36 -0700
Subject: favorite python web development tool?
In-Reply-To: <I7wUc.136114$gE.27933@pd7tw3no>
References: <10i4nttktcvltdd@corp.supernews.com>
	<I7wUc.136114$gE.27933@pd7tw3no>
Message-ID: <412294E0.2020007@mlug.missouri.edu>

>> i'm fairly new to python, coming from a java servlet / velocity 
>> template background.  i'm looking for a good python web development 
>> tool, and hope to find some suggestions here.
> 
> 
> I've found mod_python + ZopePageTemplates (standalone) to be superb 
> solution to web application development. ZPT feels like a very natural 
> and maintainable way to separate business logic from presentation. Since 
> I've started using these two technologies, I've found my productivity 
> greatly increased.

I like using mod_python and XML-RPC. Develop the logic as a backend and 
then use a frontend to talk to that backend and to do whatever 
input/output processing needs to be done to make it all into a web app. 
I like that the frontend can actually be written in other languages as 
the situation requires and that in fact it doesn't even need to be a web 
app at all. I've written MPXMLRPC backends with PHP web-based frontends 
and wxPython frontends both. Pretty sweet.

-- 
Michael <mogmios at mlug.missouri.edu>
http://kavlon.org


From jim_8421 at hotmail.com  Sun Aug  1 18:23:16 2004
From: jim_8421 at hotmail.com (Jim)
Date: 1 Aug 2004 15:23:16 -0700
Subject: popen4 poll problems
Message-ID: <c5694ea3.0408011423.7abb5eee@posting.google.com>

Hi,

I noticed with popen2.Popen4 class, sometimes the poll() method will
keep returning -1 although the command has finished.

However, when a read is done ( ex. p4instance.fromchild.read() ) and
then a poll is done, poll() will return the process exit value.

Why does this happen?  perhaps I have to do some type of flush before
doing poll?

Thanks in advance
Cheers,
Jim


From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Aug  5 17:49:07 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 23:49:07 +0200
Subject: PEP 263 status check
In-Reply-To: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com>
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de>

John Roth wrote:
> PEP 263 is marked finished in the PEP index, however
> I haven't seen the specified Phase 2 in the list of changes
> for 2.4 which is when I expected it.
> 
> Did phase 2 get cancelled, or is it just not in the
> changes document?

Neither, nor. Although this hasn't been discussed widely,
I personally believe it is too early yet to make lack of
encoding declarations a syntax error. I'd like to
reconsider the issue with Python 2.5.

OTOH, not many people have commented either way: would you
be outraged if a script that has given you a warning about
missing encoding declarations for some time fails with a
strict SyntaxError in 2.4? Has everybody already corrected
their scripts?

Regards,
Martin


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Sun Aug  8 06:08:25 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 08 Aug 2004 12:08:25 +0200
Subject: elements of decorator syntax suggestions
References: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1298.1091815362.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4edc17eb.0408062125.231f7bef@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1324.1091857951.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<41155C33.37EEB397@alcyone.com>
	<4edc17eb.0408072041.7bfe9eff@posting.google.com>
	<4115CDA8.1A8AD51D@alcyone.com>
	<mailman.1351.1091953257.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040808psja@bombur.uio.no>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
>> @ sure takes up more visual space and is easier to spot in text than |,
>> which is precisely why I used it in EmPy as the token prefix (also
>> because @ at the time is neither commonly used in English text or legal
>> in Python, though the latter will be changing).
> 
> The far-more-obvious-in-code is my reason for preferring @ over |. 

In that respect I think '=' would be pretty good too.
And possibly '!'.

However,

    if (long-expression
        | more-expresson):
        |decorator-function(blah blah)
        def foo(): pass

Could do the same with != and '==', but at least that's different from
'!' and '='.  One could write

    if bar(long_variable_name
           =value):
        =decorator-function(blah blah)
        def foo(): pass

though that seems a bit contrived.

-- 
Hallvard


From eric_brunel at despammed.com  Mon Aug 23 08:59:44 2004
From: eric_brunel at despammed.com (Eric Brunel)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:59:44 +0200
Subject: comment utiliser python sous Fedora
References: <8e16829.0408230412.cf13db4@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgcp8t$fu8$1@news-reader4.wanadoo.fr>

Roland wrote:
> Salut ,
> 
>      Je suis un debutant pour linux. Et j'ai actuellement RedHat
> Fedora Core1 . Je voudrais developper une application (ie un logiciel
> de gestion de Bibliotheque ) avec python mais j'ai des problemes:
>   
> 
> - Premierement je n'ai aucune documentation sur l'usage de python sou
> Fedora. Pourriez vous m'indiquer un endroit ou je peux t?l?charger un
> cours ? ce sujet?
> - Deuxiemement , mon python tourne sur le compilateur GCC et je sais
> pas comment faire des interfaces graphiques tout comme on le fat avec
> Tkinter dans certains cas.
>         Aidez moi s'il vous plait.
>     merci.

Bonjour,

Tout d'abord, il existe un newsgroup Python en fran?ais (fr.comp.lang.python) 
sur lequel il est pr?f?rable de poser les questions en fran?ais, le newsgroup 
comp.lang.python ?tant traditionnellement anglophone.

Quant ? tes questions, je ne suis pas sur de les comprendre: Python est-il 
install? sur ta machine? Il n'y a pas de documentation sur "l'usage de python 
sous Fedora", simplement parce qu'il n'y a rien de sp?cifique sous cette 
plateforme: PAQJS, elle s'utilise comme n'importe quel Linux. Les seules 
instructions n?cessaires se trouvent dans le fichier README dans le r?pertoire 
racine de l'installation Python.

Pour la deuxi?me question, je comprends encore moins: quel est le rapport entre 
le compilateur gcc et Tkinter? Python sous Linux est a priori toujours compil? 
avec gcc, et ?a n'empeche personne de faire du Tkinter. Quel est le probl?me 
exactement?
-- 
- Eric Brunel <eric (underscore) brunel (at) despammed (dot) com> -
PragmaDev : Real Time Software Development Tools - http://www.pragmadev.com



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sun Aug  8 19:15:54 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 19:15:54 -0400
Subject: elements of decorator syntax suggestions
References: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>		<mailman.1298.1091815362.5135.python-list@python.org>		<4edc17eb.0408062125.231f7bef@posting.google.com><mailman.1324.1091857951.5135.python-list@python.org><41155C33.37EEB397@alcyone.com><4edc17eb.0408072041.7bfe9eff@posting.google.com><4115CDA8.1A8AD51D@alcyone.com>
	<e69d3ed2040808012076f74273@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cf6c7c$c32$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Anthony Baxter" <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e69d3ed2040808012076f74273 at mail.gmail.com...
> The other point that's been raised is that | looks similar to l and I
> in a bunch of fonts, and I is a common prefix (for interfaces).

With a mandatory space after the |, it should be much harder to see it as
anything else, since anything else would be a syntax error.  Both 1 deco
and I deco are nonesense, so | deco should be visually interpreted as such.

Terry J. Reedy





From exarkun at divmod.com  Wed Aug 11 01:37:44 2004
From: exarkun at divmod.com (Jp Calderone)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 01:37:44 -0400
Subject: Static method object not callable
In-Reply-To: <CceSc.10654$nx2.3040@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <CceSc.10654$nx2.3040@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4119B0A8.6070900@divmod.com>

Edward Diener wrote:
> This simple code example gives me the message, "TypeError: 'staticmethod'
> object is not callable".
> 
> [snip]
> 
> I know there must be a way to have a class attribute reference a static
> method, and then call that static method through the reference, so if anyone
> can correct this it would be appreciated.
> 

     class X(object):
       def Y(x):
         print x
       Y = staticmethod(Y)
       def Z(self):
         self.ad[1](3)
     X.ad = {1: X.Y}

   Jp



From http  Thu Aug 12 04:19:56 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 01:19:56 -0700
Subject: Arranging a dependency tree
References: <6ccff37a.0408111831.6eb25a4e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <7xr7qcepjn.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

kyleroot at gmail.com (Kyle Root) writes:
> I've created a jumble of python modules, in each one is a tuple that
> goes something like,
> 
> deps = ("file10","file7","file3").
> 
> And some have no dependencies at all.  I have one file called "start",
> and the whole thing makes a tree of dependencies as each file has deps
> and their deps might have deps, and so on.  What I'm trying to do is
> "straighten" them or put them in order as if they were to be
> installed.  Basically I'm trying to replicate the way portage does it. :)

Suppose that deps list is for file5.  I'm reading your example to mean
file5 depends on file10, file7, and file3, and not the other way around.

As others have mentioned, what you want to do is called topological
sorting.  Since nobody's described the algorithm, it goes something
like this:

   1) Make a dictionary indexed by filename, whose entry deps[f] will
   be the set of files f depends on.  In the above example,
   deps["file5"] = Set(["file10", "file7", "file3"]).  You can
   also use a dict instead of a Set in the obvious way.

   1) Make another dictionary indexed by filename, whose entry d[f] for
   filename f will be a list of the files that depend on f.  For
   example, if the deps for file5 are ("file10","file7","file3"), then
   you'll put "file5" into d["file10"], d["file7"], and d["file3"].
   You can straightforwardly build this dict when you scan the deps lists.

   2) Also when you scan the deps lists, make a list U of all the files
   that don't depend on anything. 

   3. while U is not empty, do the following:
       choose an f from U
       output f
       remove f from U
       for g in d[f]:  # for each file depending on f
          remove f from deps[g]           
          if deps[g] is now empty, add g to U

If there are no circular dependencies and if I haven't goofed up (it's
late here), then the above scheme should output all the filenames in
topologically sorted order, in running time linear in the # of
filenames plus the # of dependencies.  

You can probably find a clearer explanation in any intro CS text with
a chapter about graph algorithms.


From jaydonnell at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 17 19:08:42 2004
From: jaydonnell at yahoo.com (Jay Donnell)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 16:08:42 -0700
Subject: can tarfile maintain directory structure?
Message-ID: <a6fdfd6b.0408171508.65d670d0@posting.google.com>

Is there a way to use the tarfile module to recursively compress the
contents of a directory and maintain the directory structure in the
tar archive?

Simply doing os.system('tar -czvf ' + fileName +'.tar.gz ' +
directory)
 works great on linux, but I need this script to work on windows as
well :(


From miko at nono.nevernever.net  Sat Aug 21 11:21:54 2004
From: miko at nono.nevernever.net (Miko)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 15:21:54 -0000
Subject: discover redirected url
Message-ID: <10ieq4dscjutmb7@corp.supernews.com>

how does one determine a redirected url?

for example:

  http://tinyurl.com/3apbd

is redirected to:

  http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/18/sunday/main607191.shtml

using httplib, i get a HTTPResponse object, but there is nothing in there
that shows the redirection, including the msg member.

is there a way to determine a redirected url using the standard Python
libraries?




From 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de  Fri Aug 20 10:46:34 2004
From: 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de (510046470588-0001 at t-online.de)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 16:46:34 +0200
Subject: My only complaint about Python
References: <mailman.2043.1093008550.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87acwpq33p.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>

Kolja Kube <Mr.KK at gmx.de> writes:
> It is free, but only free as in "free beer".

no , it's not free. free beer is a misnamer.
it must be 'gratis', as already known by Stallman.

Klaus Schilling


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug 13 14:49:09 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:49:09 -0400
Subject: Pyhton Interpreter Startup time
In-Reply-To: <un00yj47i.fsf@fitlinxx.com>
References: <mailman.1556.1092304607.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<30260531.0408120829.27a536bc@posting.google.com>
	<EvadnaKm3bI9N4bcRVn-iQ@powergate.ca> <un00yj47i.fsf@fitlinxx.com>
Message-ID: <KrCdnQG_aIO7kIDcRVn-og@powergate.ca>

David Bolen wrote:
> Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> writes:
>>I think it's
>>safe to assume that anyone with a slow startup on Windows
>>has a misconfiguration or is doing something wrong.
> 
> I don't think that's a safe assumption.  For example, on a PIII-550
> box running NT that I use, the first time I start up Python after a
> prolonged absence (typically through a night when a virus scan is run)
> it can take several seconds to start.  
[...snip description of how it affects everything else too]
> I also don't think there's much room for Python to be at fault at
> least in my case - e.g., if anything it's system behavior and not
> really local operations Python is performing.
> 
> But I don't think it automatically implies that my Windows system is
> misconfigured or that I'm doing something wrong.  

You're quite right.  I should have added the qualification that
if *other* software starts snappily, but Python does not, then
it is safe to assume it's a misconfiguration or someone doing
something wrong, whereas if all software starts slowly on
that machine then it may just be a sucky machine.

One assumes that those who are posting about Python starting
very slowly and needing faster startup time are not just
complaining indirectly about having slow machines in general.

-Peter


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Thu Aug  5 13:52:05 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:52:05 -0400
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051318360.10964-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051213180.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1207.1091724635.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051318360.10964-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051343520.11461-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Christopher T King wrote:

> On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Heiko Wundram wrote:
> 
> > Now tell me that using decorators to do synchronization isn't a lot easier to 
> > read than the first (old) example is, and also less error-prone (resp. 
> > acquiring/releasing locks properly and without deadlocks).
> 
> I'll admit synchronization is a strong use case (since I don't believe it 
> justifies language support, like it has in Java), but I just think there's 
> a better way to go about things that no-one's thought of yet.

Replying to myself here...

Why would one necessarily use method synchronization in Python, since any
well-designed Python function should be re-entrant (though I'm sure there
is the rare exception)?  It would seem that data access synchronization is
all that's needed for most threaded applications, and the only way to 
apply that is through the try/finally construct, since Python does not 
(yet?) provide built-in data synchronization.

Of course, sometimes all a function does is access a synchronized piece of
data (especially in the case of accessor functions used to simulate
synchronized data access), in which case method synchronization is
equivalent to the synchronization of that piece of data, and decorators
can be applied to the method as a whole.



From peter.maas at mplusr.de  Thu Aug 19 13:06:09 2004
From: peter.maas at mplusr.de (Peter Maas)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:06:09 +0200
Subject: My only complaint about Python
In-Reply-To: <CuCdnUCvWK5XSLncRVn-jw@giganews.com>
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<CuCdnUCvWK5XSLncRVn-jw@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <cg2mj7$oc8$1@swifty.westend.com>

Istvan Albert schrieb:
> In all fairness this is more the problem with Microsoft than
> python. If they had a free fully-featured compiler then Python
> would be compiled with that.

Isn't the free Borland 5.5 compiler full featured?

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Maas,  M+R Infosysteme,  D-52070 Aachen,  Tel +49-241-93878-0
E-mail 'cGV0ZXIubWFhc0BtcGx1c3IuZGU=\n'.decode('base64')
-------------------------------------------------------------------


From cemerick at snowtide.com  Wed Aug 18 10:33:17 2004
From: cemerick at snowtide.com (Chas Emerick)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 10:33:17 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
In-Reply-To: <20040818130058.808391E400B@bag.python.org>
References: <20040818130058.808391E400B@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <8BD53FBE-F123-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>

[...a lot of discussion about YA decorator syntax...]

I have no particular qualms about the syntax proposed by the OP:

def (callable)* blah (args):
	pass

However, I do remember GvR mentioning on python-dev that he did not 
prefer such a syntax because it would break existing tools that 
currently rigidly expect a regular [def blah (args)] function 
definition.

I did want to note that, aside from Paul's constant hope for implicitly 
typed functions based on their arguments (which we've already hashed to 
fine little bits :-), all this decorator debate is about some very 
minute syntax differences.  I suppose if that view makes me insensitive 
to others' syntactic hangups, so be it... :-)

- Chas Emerick



From paul at prescod.net  Tue Aug 17 06:13:00 2004
From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 03:13:00 -0700
Subject: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xf3'
In-Reply-To: <20040817082127.GA5233@barbucha.martin.net>
References: <4120F820.4000703@fusiondementes.com>	<mailman.1775.1092723467.5135.python-list@python.org>	<4121A8DA.30802@v.loewis.de>
	<20040817082127.GA5233@barbucha.martin.net>
Message-ID: <4121DA2C.2080706@prescod.net>

Martin Slouf wrote:

> thank you for reply, great info! it helped me to better understand it;
> but of course, some additional questions have risen.
> 
> maybe some of those question/comments may seem stupid (ie. clear), but
> im new to python and i want to assure myself i get it right; thx for
> patience.
> 
> 
>>There is an alternative, if the print is a debug print:
>>
>>- print a repr() of the unicode object instead of
>>  the unicode object itself. This will work on all
>>  terminals, and show hex escapes of non-ASCII characters.
> 
> 
> just to make sure:
> 
> override the object's __repr__(self) method to st. like:

No, he means instead of:

print foo

print repr(foo)

  Paul Prescod



From hans at zephyrfalcon.org  Thu Aug 19 21:12:25 2004
From: hans at zephyrfalcon.org (Hans Nowak)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:12:25 -0400
Subject: Mixing classes...
In-Reply-To: <cg36u1$mq0$1@bagan.srce.hr>
References: <cg36u1$mq0$1@bagan.srce.hr>
Message-ID: <41254FF9.9040001@zephyrfalcon.org>

Ivan Voras wrote:
> Is this possible:
> 
> class C1:
>     def somemethods(self):
>         """methods do stuff, create member variables"""
>         pass
> 
> def f1():
>     """function returns instances of C1, somewhat manipulated into 
> specific states"""
>     return C1()
> 
> 
> class C2(C1): # C2 derives from C1
>     def othermethods(self):
>         """new methods are introduced, but no new member variables (they 
> work on existing ones)"""
>         pass
> 
> 
> 
> # So far, everything's ok. Now, i want to create instance of
> # C1 using f1:
> 
> c = f1()  # could be equal to "c=C1()", but not always...
> 
> # ... and somehow "add" or "overlay" the additional methods
> # declared in C2 on the object "c". I tried this:
> 
> c.othermethods=C2.othermethods
> 
> c.othermethods() # fails here, is confused about what is 'self'
> 
> 
> #######
> While this is probably considered "strange", and it's certainly not good 
> design style, I somehow feel it could be possible to do in python. Any 
> clues?

Use new.instancemethod:

 >>> class C1:
...     def somemethods(self):
...         print 'somemethods'
...
 >>> def f1():
...     return C1()
...
 >>> class C2(C1):
...     def othermethods(self):
...         print 'othermethods'
...
 >>> c = f1()
 >>> c.somemethods()
somemethods
 >>> import new
 >>> c.othermethods = new.instancemethod(C2.othermethods.im_func, c, c.__class__)
 >>> c.othermethods()
othermethods

HTH,

--
Hans Nowak (hans at zephyrfalcon.org)
http://zephyrfalcon.org/



From mrbrown200425 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  6 09:56:52 2004
From: mrbrown200425 at yahoo.com (Rob B)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 06:56:52 -0700
Subject: import random error
References: <7903bb89.0408051324.63ee1535@posting.google.com>
	<MqednXejDdtTNY_cRVn-oA@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <7903bb89.0408060556.2c332a28@posting.google.com>

Thanks! Hard to believe I spent so long on that :)


From kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no  Mon Aug 30 20:06:36 2004
From: kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Torgrim Homme)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 02:06:36 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<tyf3c28ps1t.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
	<1ry8k0d2az.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<tyfy8jxnlch.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
Message-ID: <1r1xhob27n.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>

[Jacek Generowicz]:
>
>   Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no> writes:
>   
>   > ["pass"] should only be used when a suite is required, but the
>   > suite should do nothing.
>   
>   I'll have to take your word for it, that this is THE WAY. Oh, wait
>   a minute ... I don't take people's word for it, and I don't
>   subscribe to programming dogmas, partuclarly when they get in the
>   way of getting something useful done. Never mind, then.
>   [...]
>   I'm not presupposing any convention, I'm observing the current
>   state of the world and finding a working solution in it. You are
>   tilting at windmills.

"I don't subscribe to programming dogmas", hmm?  I guess "braces are
unworthy of Python" isn't dogma, it's the Truth.

>   > and IMHO [abusing "pass" is] not worthy of a Python program.
>   
>   Whereas braces are worthy of a Python program.

certainly.  explicit is better than implicit, you know :-)

thank you for your input, I will cover the "pass" hack in the
PEP.
-- 
Kjetil T.


From curzio.basso at unibas.ch  Wed Aug 11 04:09:53 2004
From: curzio.basso at unibas.ch (Curzio Basso)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:09:53 +0200
Subject: how to dispatch objects depending on their class 
In-Reply-To: <4118faca$0$22911$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
References: <4118dd4a$1@maser.urz.unibas.ch>
	<4118faca$0$22911$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <4119d457$1@maser.urz.unibas.ch>

Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:

> I saw something like a multi-methods implementation in Python somewhere, 
> this may interest you.
> http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-pydisp.html

looks interesting. thanks for the link, I'll post some comment if I find 
it useful for my problem.

cheers, curzio


From RayOsborn at mac.com  Tue Aug  3 19:48:44 2004
From: RayOsborn at mac.com (Ray O)
Date: 3 Aug 2004 16:48:44 -0700
Subject: Disappearing objects in shelve
Message-ID: <c85974f9.0408031548.54e3cab9@posting.google.com>

I have read a number of threads relating to problems with shelve, but
I couldn't find one directly related my experience, so I would
appreciate some advice.  The closest one ended with a recommendation
to upgrade to Python 2.3, but that, unfortunately, is out of my
control.  The system I use runs Python 2.2.2, and whichdb gives
dbhash.

The problem only occurs when serializing class instances; lists don't
seem to be affected.  Every time I attempt to read the instance from
the shelve file, it seems to delete it from the file even though I am
not performing any write operations.   Attempts to use flag='r' in the
shelve.open generated error messages, as did restricting write
permissions to the database.

This is some example code.  'Editor.py' defines the class whose
instance is stored in db["john"], etc.  The file, "editors.db",
originally contained keys "nick and "john".  By the end, the file has
been emptied.

import shelve
import Editor

def main():
    db = shelve.open("editors.db")
    value = db["john"]
    db.close()

    db=shelve.open("editors.db")
    print db.keys()
    db.close()
    
    db = shelve.open("editors.db")
    value = db["nick"]
    db.close()

    db=shelve.open("editors.db")
    print db.keys()
    db.close()
    
main()

>> import test
[ 'john','nick']
['nick']

I got the same result when I attempted a deep copy instead of the
assignment to value.  Anyone know what I'm missing?


From cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca  Thu Aug  5 16:35:33 2004
From: cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca (David M. Cooke)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 16:35:33 -0400
Subject: numarray speed question
References: <953AD3D0Didtoken@128.91.2.239>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408040845120.27254-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<953C4DD4idtoken@128.91.2.239>
Message-ID: <qnkr7qluxuy.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>

At some point, grv575 at hotmail.com (grv) wrote:

> squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King) wrote in
> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408040845120.27254-100000 at ccc6.wpi.edu>: 
>
>>On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, grv wrote:
>>
>>> So it is supposed to be very fast to have an array of say 5 million 
>>> integers stored in a binary file and do
>>> 
>>> a = numarray.fromfile('filename', (2, 2, 2))
>>> numarray.add(a, 9, a)
>>> 
>>> but how is that faster than reading the entire file into memory and
>>> then having a for loop in C:
>>>    (loop over range) {
>>>       *p++ += 9      }
>>> 
>>> or is that essentially what's going on?
>>
>>That's essentially what's going on ;) The point of numarray isn't to be 
>>hyper-fast, but to be as fast as the equivalent C (or Fortran, or 
>>what-have-you) implementation.  In many cases, it's faster, because 
>>numarray is designed with several speed hacks in mind, but it's nothing 
>>you can't do (without a little work) in C.
>>
>
> Yes but see I'm interested in what speed hacks can actually be done to 
> improve the above code.  I just don't see anything that can iterate and add 
> over that memory region faster.

Well, numarray probably isn't faster for this case (adding a scalar to
a vector). In fact, the relevant numarray code looks like this:

static int add_Float64_vector_scalar(long niter, long ninargs, long noutargs, vo
id **buffers, long *bsizes) {
    long i;
    Float64 *tin1     = (Float64 *) buffers[0];
    Float64 tscalar   = *(Float64 *) buffers[1];
    Float64 *tout    = (Float64 *) buffers[2];
    
    for (i=0; i<niter; i++, tin1++, tout++) {
        *tout = *tin1 + tscalar;
    }
    return 0;
}

What you *do* get with numarray is:

1) transparent handling of byteswapped, misaligned, discontiguous,
   type-mismatched data (say, from a memory-mapped file generated on a
   system with a different byte order as single-precision instead of
   double-precision).

2) ease-of-use. That two lines of python code above is _it_ (except
   for an 'import numarray' statement). Your C code isn't anywhere
   nearly complete enough to use. You would need to add routines to
   read the file, etc.

3) interactive use. You can do all this in the Python command line. If
   you want to multiply instead of add, an up-arrow and some editing
   will do that. With C, you'd have to recompile.

If you need the best possible speed (after doing it in numarray and
finding it isn't fast enough), you can write an extension module to
do that bit in C, or look into scipy.weave for inlining C code, or into
f2py for linking Fortran code to Python.

-- 
|>|\/|<
/--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
|David M. Cooke
|cookedm(at)physics(dot)mcmaster(dot)ca


From rtw at freenet.co.uk  Wed Aug 25 11:24:38 2004
From: rtw at freenet.co.uk (Rob Williscroft)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 15:24:38 GMT
Subject: Unpythonic Python
References: <8a638f47.0408240034.653a92ff@posting.google.com>
	<zn4lvsib.fsf@python.net>
	<8a638f47.0408240700.13c39f57@posting.google.com>
	<uzn4j2s38.fsf@boost-consulting.com>
Message-ID: <Xns9550A6C7E36FFukcoREMOVEfreenetrtw@130.133.1.4>

David Abrahams wrote in news:uzn4j2s38.fsf at boost-consulting.com in
comp.lang.python: 

>> That's not the problem.  I can download the file reliably from other
>> machines. 

At the same time, using http ?

> 
> Actually it appears that urllib is having some problem on Unix, at
> least the one from Python-2.2.x.  This fails on Both FreeBSD and
> Linux:
> 
>   urllib.urlretrieve(
>         'http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cvstarballs/boost-cvsroot.tar.bz2',
>         'boost-cvsroot.tar.bz2')
> 
> Trying again with Python 2.3 on Cygwin.
> 

Is it possible the file is being (re) uploaded (via cvs) during your 
cron job's download, thus truncating your download ?

Perhapse you should change to cvs:

  os.system( 'cvs ... ' )

FWIW, I tried downlading with IE using the link above I got a
truncated 6 and bit MB's (16:15 BST (UTC +0100)).

Rob.
-- 
http://www.victim-prime.dsl.pipex.com/


From python at rcn.com  Thu Aug 26 01:31:34 2004
From: python at rcn.com (Raymond Hettinger)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 22:31:34 -0700
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
Message-ID: <5d83790c.0408252131.123cefb3@posting.google.com>

Martin DeMello <martindemello at yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<S2YWc.201615$M95.19420 at pd7tw1no>...
> It seems to be a fairly common pattern for an object-modifying method to
> return None - however, this is often quite inconvenient.

The FAQs provide a clue to Guido's thinking on this subject:

http://www.python.org/doc/faq/general.html#why-doesn-t-list-sort-return-the-sorted-list



Raymond Hettinger


From littlejohn.75 at noos.fr  Mon Aug 30 12:29:02 2004
From: littlejohn.75 at noos.fr (F. Petitjean)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 16:29:02 GMT
Subject: initializing mutable class attributes
References: <J4zYc.102357$UTP.98636@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gjc8cs.sqvo1v1fhabdjN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<eTHYc.205$yqJ1.68@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
Message-ID: <413355ce$0$26999$626a14ce@news.free.fr>

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 15:39:54 GMT, Dan Perl <dperl at rogers.com> wrote:
> 
> "Alex Martelli" <aleaxit at yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1gjc8cs.sqvo1v1fhabdjN%aleaxit at yahoo.com...
> 
>> > So the only solution I see to this is to initialize attr2 in __init__:
>> >     class Father:
>> >         attr1=None
>> >         def __init__(self):
>> >             self.attr2=[ ]
>>
>> This is the canonical way, sure.
>>
Snip
> 
> After seeing a few replies (yours, Benjamin Niemann's and Peter Otten's) to
> my initial posting, I think I am getting the picture that there is a
> conscious decision to keep the use of __init__ the way it is and just make
> people learn it and learn it early enough.  That's a valid approach and I'll
> accept it.
> 
Snip
> 
> No one, including you, has given me a reason WHY __init__ is implemented
> this way.  I am not bashing you for that, I would just still like to hear
> that 'WHY'.  I'm sure that this implementation has some advantages.  But,
Explicit is better than implicit

import this
> 
> 
> Dan
> PS: Does my last name attract the wrong kind of attention from people in
> this newsgroup?  It's really my name, it's not fake, BTW.
My nick littlejohn  is the direct translation of my last name and I'm
far from big. So what ?  :=)


From dwelch91 at comcast.net  Wed Aug 18 13:21:27 2004
From: dwelch91 at comcast.net (djw)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:21:27 GMT
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
In-Reply-To: <41230713$0$20684$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
References: <20040817181725194-0400@braeburn.themorgue.org>
	<41230713$0$20684$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <reMUc.32085$mD.4717@attbi_s02>

Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:
> Kevin Smith wrote:
> 
>> For what it's worth, I wrote the original PEP 318.  I probably wasn't 
>> qualified, but I just wanted a nice simple way to declare class 
>> methods without having to repeat the function name.  After submitting 
>> it to BDFL for approval, more work was needed and the discussion of 
>> PEP 318 on python-dev increased rapidly.  It was evident that I was in 
>> over my head, so I asked more someone more experienced to take over. 
>> I guess others had bigger plans for my proposal that I had planned.  
>> It has turned into the "solution" to many problems: type checking 
>> (both arguments and returned values), metaclasses, metadata, 
>> interfaces, function attributes, etc.).  Unfortunately, in the 
>> process, this simple request for syntactical sugar has turned into a 
>> monstrosity.  In my opinion, none of the proposed syntaxes really seem 
>> Pythonic.  This PEP just seems to be trying to solve too many problems.
>>
>> Bear with me, but I'd like to propose one more syntax that is simple, 
>> easy for newbies to understand,  and nowhere near as powerful as the 
>> current PEP's syntax.  However, it doesn't add incoherent, arbitrary 
>> syntax either.
>>
>> def classmethod foo(x, y, z):
>>     pass
>>
>> That's it.  One "decorator" that is a callable object that takes a 
>> method as it's only argument.  No expressions, lists, tuples, etc.  
>> Just one callable object.  
> 
> 
> +2 for me.
> 
> 
>> Ok, if you absolutely must have more than one.
> 
>  > def classmethod synchronized foo(x, y, z):
>  >     pass
> 
> No. If you want more than one, provide your own decorator, ie :
> 
> def synchronizedClassmethod(method):
>   return synchronized(classmethod(method))
> 
> def synchronizedClassmethod foo(x, y, z):
>   pass
> 
> My 2 eurocents
> Bruno
> 

+10


From tim.hochberg at ieee.org  Thu Aug  5 17:59:43 2004
From: tim.hochberg at ieee.org (Tim Hochberg)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 14:59:43 -0700
Subject: psyco out of memory
In-Reply-To: <ceu91j$a5s$1@bagan.srce.hr>
References: <cetpoc$udc$1@bagan.srce.hr> <ceu91j$a5s$1@bagan.srce.hr>
Message-ID: <ceuakm$afv$1@sea.gmane.org>

Ivan Voras wrote:
> Ivan Voras wrote:
> 
>> (I'm running python 2.3.4 on FreeBSD 5)
> 
> 
> Hmph. I tried on WinXP and it works. Maybe it's a platform-specific bug.
> 
> (Still, I'm surprised how slow it is. The same "program" in Java takes 
> about 10sec, and here it's passed 5 minutes and I'm still waiting...)

I believe that psyco only accelerates functions and methods. So, it's 
not going to do anything in the case you presented. This makes it 
particularly suprising that it broke. Try wrapping up your loop in a 
function. And with Psyco range is (or at least used to be) better. Like so:

import psyco

def f():
     d = 0.0
     for i in range(1000000000):
         d += i
     print d
psyco.bind(f)

f()

That ran in about a minute here. Psyco won't speed up floating point 
operations near as much as integer ops at present, hence its speed 
deficit with respect to java.

-tim



From http  Tue Aug 24 19:00:45 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 16:00:45 -0700
Subject: Has anyone implemented BASIC in Python?
References: <2oo13eFcj548U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<o6eii0h19pljd16shbfld7jdj7l2m7tc9m@4ax.com>
	<2ot30hFeek8nU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<9h0ji0lvc0be65nuvcugaa3vsq5mcl3ck8@4ax.com>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-900D4F.11105323082004@localhost>
	<285ni0hmusfgqslj9gnhhimvanr2jh0be3@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <7xpt5gp2ea.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Andrea Griffini <agriff at tin.it> writes:
> One could go *forever* by abstracting and generalizing and
> formalizing, but there is a ROI point that must be considered,
> and, for me, shift-reduce parser are beyond the ROI point.

They are hard to code by hand, but the idea is normally you'd create
them with a parser generator.


From fred at acme.com  Tue Aug 10 08:32:24 2004
From: fred at acme.com (Fred)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:32:24 +0200
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
	<278de0e.0408090935.6d758a5d@posting.google.com>
	<i0ffh01guveqks1n854c2g4l75dbdg57rr@4ax.com>
	<30260531.0408091506.294cec8a@posting.google.com>
	<kl1gh0l4p2ge2i0f4j67q94hn8b2tl48g2@4ax.com>
	<mailman.1435.1092137809.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <6vfhh0dbpvucjd2qdc7g2v86h25vt4p4t0@4ax.com>

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:23:31 +0200, "Miki Tebeka"
<miki.tebeka at zoran.com> wrote:
>Inno has a Pascal like scripting language which IMO is *way* easier than
>NSIS assembly like language.

Really? Was it added recently? I have to give it a shot :-)

Thx
Fred.


From davidf at sjsoft.com  Thu Aug 19 15:36:54 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:36:54 +0200
Subject: My only complaint about Python
In-Reply-To: <CuCdnUCvWK5XSLncRVn-jw@giganews.com>
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<CuCdnUCvWK5XSLncRVn-jw@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <cg2vgn$pun$2@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

Istvan Albert wrote:
> Darren Dale wrote:
> 
>> I love the language. I love the community. My only complaint is that 
>> Python for Windows is built with Visual Studio.
>>
>> It is too difficult to build python, or a module, from source. 
> 
> 
> In all fairness this is more the problem with Microsoft than
> python. If they had a free fully-featured compiler then Python
> would be compiled with that.
> 
> Microsoft seems to have made some half-hearted attempt in
> this direction so that is promising.

There's a difference between free and open source. I agree that having 
python compilable using a freely available open source compiler is important

David


From timrueAT at mindspringDOT.com  Sat Aug 21 22:48:31 2004
From: timrueAT at mindspringDOT.com (threeseas)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 02:48:31 GMT
Subject: Mind.py
In-Reply-To: <4127f9b1$1_2@news.athenanews.com>
References: <41220b22@news.victoria.tc.ca> <4122796E.9652CCAE@alcyone.com>
	<dsLVc.8799$3O3.665@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>
	<4127CB0C.E4F49160@alcyone.com> <4127f9b1$1_2@news.athenanews.com>
Message-ID: <3QTVc.30114$9Y6.6092@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>

Nick Chackowsky wrote:
> Erik Max Francis wrote:
> 
>> threeseas wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Erik Max Francis wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> "Arthur T. Murray" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Now, suppose that you wanted to write an AI in Python that would
>>>>> implement your mind-model and allow it to grow, mutate, develop.
>>>>> Here is one possible scenario.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.nothingisreal.com/mentifex
>>>
>>>
>>> its a good thing we all use our minds alike, huh?
>>>
>>> Oh wait, so why doesn't Arthur slander or libel himself?
>>
>>
>>
>> It's like an epic battle between Racter and Eliza!
>>
> I was *wondering* why this sounded so familiar!

This you? http://www.ratemyteachers.ca/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=47471

and lets not forget what Erik spend his time on..

http://www.crank.net/

... shrug ... maybe that should be epic battle between Erik and Nick...

this is a python programming language newsgroup.


From webraviteja at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 22 13:34:22 2004
From: webraviteja at yahoo.com (Ravi Teja Bhupatiraju)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 10:34:22 -0700
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <cga240$hc9@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <b74e43f1.0408220934.12297ead@posting.google.com>

"Sridhar  R" <sridharinfinity at gmail.com> wrote in message news:<cga240$hc9 at odbk17.prod.google.com>...
> Python is used in a fps Windows game called 'Blade of Darkness'.
> Except the core engine part (written in C/C++), everything else is
> written in Python-1.5.2

Kingdom Under Fire (RTS + RPG) uses it in a similar way.


From dave at pythonapocrypha.com  Fri Aug  6 16:09:13 2004
From: dave at pythonapocrypha.com (Dave Brueck)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 14:09:13 -0600
Subject: tweaking @decorator syntax
In-Reply-To: <10h7ombdaruuae9@corp.supernews.com>
References: <b03e80d.0408040809.66c50ecf@posting.google.com>	<b03e80d.0408051504.19e33991@posting.google.com>	<mailman.1245.1091759909.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<10h7ombdaruuae9@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <4113E569.4010400@pythonapocrypha.com>

Jeff Shannon wrote:

> Andrew Durdin wrote:
> 
>>
>> 5. In appearance it looks like a special kind of statement; and it is
>> not at all obvious to me that it is rather a kind of attribute or
>> modifier of the following function definition. I don't know of any
>> other construction in Python that performs a similar, unmarked (i.e.
>> non-explicit) modification of the following statement. So to me the
>> @syntax comes across as extremely un-Pythonic (by that I mean
>> radically inconsistent with the conventions of the rest of the
>> language). For this same reason, I dislike all the proposed syntaxes
>> which involve placing something before the "def" without a subsequent
>> indented block.
>>  
>>
> 
> Ah, yes!  Thank you for expressing the thing that's been really bugging 
> me about this syntax, but which I hadn't quite managed to put into 
> coherent words.  I kept thinking that having all that stuff "stacked up" 
> above the function def looked horribly ugly, but I couldn't quite 
> express why...  but I think you've hit on it exactly, there.
> 
> The fact that it adds punctuation to an otherwise low-punctuation 
> language compounds matters, and I too would rather see a keyword than a 
> punctuation mark (though I do also understand the reluctance to add new 
> keywords).  But really, it's the placement rather than the punctuation 
> that truly grates on my eyes.
> 
> Hm, just as an experiment...
> 
>    def f(x,y):
>        '''tests two ints for equality
>        '''
>        @accepts(int, int)
>        @returns(bool)
> 
>        return x == y
> 
> 
> I still don't care for the @, but this looks much less jarring to me.  
> At very least, the decorators are much more clearly associated with the 
> particular function.

Looks much less jarring for me, too. I think Andrew hit the nail on the 
head.

-Dave


From shalabh at cafepy.com  Thu Aug 26 14:03:15 2004
From: shalabh at cafepy.com (Shalabh Chaturvedi)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:03:15 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <gqudnRoo8q-Cg7PcRVn-tA@comcast.com>
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>	<mailman.2455.1093539321.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<gqudnRoo8q-Cg7PcRVn-tA@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <cgl8i8$edv$1@sea.gmane.org>

Doug Holton wrote:
> Tim Hochberg wrote:
> 
>> I also have a weak preference for 'per' over 'using', FWIW. The 
>> shortness of 'per' is one virtue. Another is that, because it's 
>> slightly obscure, it may be easier to indoctrinate users that 
>> 'per...def' is the correct order, not 'def...per'. For me at least 
>> it's 'obvious' that if 'using...def' works then so should 
>> 'def...using', which of course it can't.
> 
> Even in common English usage, "per" usually comes in the middle of a
> phrase, not the beginning, like "miles per hour" or "Changes were made
> to the manuscript per the author's instructions"  (people would more 
> commonly use the phrase "according to" rather than "per" there).
> 
> None of those uses bare any resemblance to how decorators affect
> functions.  "per:" by itself on a line is pretty much meaningless.
> Looks more like you misspelled pre.

As per meaning #3 of the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary [1], per also 
means 'according to'. In fact when I first saw the suggestion of 'per' I 
could immediately make sense of it in that context. I'm still debating 
whether to vote for or abstain, since I'm not that fond of 'using'.

Cheers,
Shalabh

[1] http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=per&x=0&y=0



From Holger.Joukl at LBBW.de  Tue Aug 31 11:14:25 2004
From: Holger.Joukl at LBBW.de (Holger Joukl)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:14:25 +0200
Subject: python 2 coercion
Message-ID: <OF73FBA423.487013C4-ONC1256F01.0052544C-C1256F01.0053838C@LBBW.de>

Dear python list,
What happens (on the C level) if the python interpreter executes
a statement like
if <some strange extension type> == None:
...

Just a hint to the "entry point" would be great... What function/method
is called for the two operands?
I guess it is s.th. like PyObject_Compare or a type objects
tp_compare method, but am a bit lost.

Problem is I need to get an older number extension to work with python
2.3.4.
It worked with 1.5.2, and everything still seems to work except for ==
comparison.
I suspect that somewhere on the way some coercion is tried but does not
work,
but fail to see the steps that lead to this situation.

Thanks,
 Holger

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From donald.welch at hp.com  Tue Aug 31 12:46:45 2004
From: donald.welch at hp.com (djw)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:46:45 -0700
Subject: GUI Wizard: flow control?
References: <mailman.2666.1093958287.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4134ac26@usenet01.boi.hp.com>

David Chan wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I'm trying to use python to create GUI wizards, i.e. sequences of dialog
> boxes with <BACK and NEXT> buttons.  Since I want to re-use some of the
> dialog boxes in different wizards, I want to have a main function which
> calls each dialog box, much like this:
> 
>     def select_item():
>         """runs GUI wizard to select item"""
> 
>         client = show_client_dialog()
>         job = show_job_dialog(client)
>         invoice, rate = show_invoice_dialog(job)
>         item = choose_item_dialog(invoice, rate)
>         return item
> 
> This works fine until you want to implement the <BACK button, which should
> return to the previous dialog.  Theoretically, what I'd really like is to
> be able to jump backwards through the control flow, like this:
> 
>     class GoBack(Exception): pass
>     def select_item():
>         """runs GUI wizard to select item - can go <BACK"""
>         back = HERE
>         client = show_client_dialog()
> 
>         try: job = show_job_dialog(client)
>         except GoBack: back.goto()
>         back = HERE
> 
>         try: invoice, rate = show_invoice_dialog(job)
>         except GoBack: back.goto()
>         back = HERE
> 
>         try: item = show_item_dialog(invoice, rate)
>         except GoBack: back.goto()
> 
>         return item
> 
> But I couldn't find a way of doing anything like that.  You could do
> something almost as unhorrible with nested breaks:'
> 
>     class GoBack(Exception): pass
>     def select_item():
>         """runs GUI wizard to select item - can go <BACK"""
>         CLIENT: while 1:
>             client = show_client_dialog()
>             
>             JOB: while 1:
>                 try: job = show_job_dialog(client)
>                 except GoBack: continue CLIENT
> 
>                 INVOICE: while 1:
>                     try: invoice, rate = show_invoice_dialog(job)
>                     except GoBack: continue JOB
>                     
>                     try: item = show_item_dialog(invoice, rate)
>                     except GoBack: continue INVOICE
>                     break CLIENT
> 
> Or you could do all the flow control manually in a "do_wizard" function
> and make the caller create a horrible data structure instead of writing
> readable code:
> 
>     calls = [
>         {'meth': show_client_dialog, 'args': [], 'ret': ['client']},
>         {'meth': show_job_dialog, 'args': ['client'], 'ret': ['job']},
>         {'meth': show_invoice_dialog, 'args': ['job'], 'ret': ['invoice',
>         {'rate']}, 'meth': show_item_dialog, 'args': ['invoice', 'rate'],
>         {'ret': ['item']},
>     ] # this just says: "client = show_client_dialog()", etc.
>     do_wizard(calls, locals())
> 
> 
> But this is too hideous to deploy, because I might have to remember what
> it does in six months :-)
> 
> Can anyone suggest something better, or should I abandon my goal of having
> a main function which calls each dialog box?
> 
> Many thanks,

I always code this sort of situation up as a simple state machine. Each
NEXT/BACK button controls the next state, each state being the display of a
particular dialog. A state machine can be a good candidate for flow control
that has to go "forwards" and "backwards".

-Don



From apardon at forel.vub.ac.be  Thu Aug 12 10:57:43 2004
From: apardon at forel.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 14:57:43 GMT
Subject: [OT] Keyboard layout, was Re: PEP318
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<20040812090056.00001e31@titan> <cffdba$ko0$04$1@news.t-online.com>
	<Y+l*oRTrq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
	<roy-439B02.10321912082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <slrnchn1b7.iu.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>

Op 2004-08-12, Roy Smith schreef <roy at panix.com>:
> Sion Arrowsmith <siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> As someone who's just started using a Mac for the first time(*),
>> I'd like to add that it's not always plain-sailing on an English
>> keyboard.
>
> What's wrong with Mac keyboards?  I've used a number of Mac keyboards 
> over the past 15 or so years, and have found the variety of layouts to 
> be no better or worse (or more or less standardized) than any other 
> keyboards in general.  I'm currently using a 12" PowerBook and other 
> than finding the control key to be uncomfortably close to the space bar, 
> I find it perfectly reasonable for programming and emacs-ing.
>
>> And I have a great
>> aversion to remapping keyboards so that they generate characters
>> other than those on the keycaps.)
>
> Yes, that's evil.  I was just in the UK a couple of weeks ago and was 
> using a semi-UK keyboard.  As far as I could tell, the keycaps were 
> labeled with the UK layout, but the codes they generated were US style.  
> I touch-type, so as long as I ignored what was printed on the keycaps 
> and just typed normally, everything was fine.  But it's amazingly 
> difficult to ignore the printed keycaps.

It's not that difficult if you gain some experience with it. Half
the keboards here are qwerty the other half is azerty. On all machines
I have to work on with an azerty I have configured my account to
treat the keyboard as if the keyboard is qwerty. After a little
getting used to that works easier and faster than always adjusting
to the keyboard of the specific computer.

-- 
Antoon Pardon


From twanger at bluetwanger.de  Tue Aug 10 07:39:38 2004
From: twanger at bluetwanger.de (Markus Bertheau)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:39:38 +0200
Subject: How do I get IDLE on Suse Linux 9.x?
In-Reply-To: <0G1Sc.149588$fv.89578@fe2.columbus.rr.com>
References: <0G1Sc.149588$fv.89578@fe2.columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <1092137978.2624.18.camel@dicaprio.akademie1.de>

? ???, 10.08.2004, ? 12:44, michael ?????:

> My question is this: Should I just use a text editor and go without IDLE? Is
> there another IDE standard on Linux? Do I need to download something to get
> IDLE?

On Fedora I can start IDLE with

python /usr/lib/python2.3/idlelib/idle.pyw

-- 
Markus Bertheau <twanger at bluetwanger.de>



From michele.simionato at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 11:16:32 2004
From: michele.simionato at gmail.com (Michele Simionato)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 08:16:32 -0700
Subject: Help understanding Scheme's syntax, procedures and calls
References: <95f168b0.0408120120.31433dc7@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <4edc17eb.0408120716.2bde3005@posting.google.com>

franbarlow at mail.com (Fran) wrote in message news:<95f168b0.0408120120.31433dc7 at posting.google.com>...
<Scheme question>

The right place where to ask this question is comp.lang.scheme.
They are pretty gentle with newbies, so don't worry ;)

     Michele Simionato


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 05:03:03 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:03:03 +1000
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
In-Reply-To: <q9OdnRDkR-VsMbTcRVn-pw@lmi.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408230004350.22879-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>
	<mailman.2175.1093233838.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<q9OdnRDkR-VsMbTcRVn-pw@lmi.net>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082302035e4091ee@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 01:36:31 -0700, David Pokorny
<davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> using:
>     staticmethod synchronized memoize
> def bar(foo):
>     "To colon or not to colon? Def is the question."
>     pass
> 
> is easy on the eye while
> 
> using:
>     staticmethod
>     synchronized
>     memoize
> def bar(foo):
>     "english teachers will call you on putting two colons in one sentence"
>     pass


The problem is that 

using:
    staticmethod accepts(int, str) returns(str) published(True)
def bar(count, input):
    return input * count

looks worse (imo) than 

using:
    staticmethod 
    accepts(int, str) 
    returns(str) 
    published(True)
def bar(count, input):
    return input * count

I suspect this sort of decorator usage (more complex decorators) will
become more common over time, as new and interesting patterns are
developed once 2.4 is final.

(Guido's comment on the original @syntax being limited to one-per-line
was that it was a "gut feeling" thing.)


From andre.roberge at ns.sympatico.ca  Wed Aug 25 11:12:48 2004
From: andre.roberge at ns.sympatico.ca (Andr? Roberge)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 08:12:48 -0700
Subject: Best GUI- Python for children - pygame and blender32
Message-ID: <f06d8508.0408250712.63360fc2@posting.google.com>

Sorry about the cryptic subject line, but I wanted to capture the
essence of my message in a single line.

I am learning Python (which, as everyone know is the best language :-)
so that I can write a tutorial to teach my kids about computer
programming.  The motivation for them will be to use Python to create
their own games using pygame and, eventually, blender3d.  From what I
hear, their friends will be interested in that tutorial too.  When/if
I am satisfied with it, I'll make it publicly available (first in
French though - an English translation will have to wait).

My approach is to use what I called JITT  (just in time teaching :-)
i.e. introducing as few concepts as are needed in order to understand
the  "next topic", leading to game creation as soon as possible.

Seems to be working so far.

I am now at the point of writing a "chapter" on GUIs.  I've written a
few sections about Tkinter but I haven't shown them to my kids yet as
I am not convinced this is the best way to go; I've read enough about
anygui, pythoncard, pyui, easygui, not to mention wxpython, etc. to
instill doubts in my mind.  I can't really afford to take the time to
learn enough about all of those to make an informed decision on my
own, decision that I could regret later on.   As long as the chosen
GUI is as easy as possible to learn but "complete" enough (and fast
enough as an interface?) to do fun stuff with pygame (and, possibly,
blender3d, if a separate GUI is needed), I will be satisfied.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Andr? Roberge

PS  As for the python survey, I'm 43 years old, started learning about
Python about a month ago, have done some programming in the past for
fun using Fortran, C, and java, but haven't done any serious
programming for years and it is not required at all for my day job.


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 19 09:24:06 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:24:06 -0400
Subject: classmethods, staticmethods, and decorators
Message-ID: <cg29lk$vgd$4@sea.gmane.org>


Probably the best-loved features of Python are the shortcuts.  The fact 
that you don't have to explicitly declare very much and that the 
language supports clear, shorthand syntax for frequently used operations...

     x = [1,2,3]

     y = r[2:9]

     def __foo():

That's the good stuff of Python.

I believe that identifying staticmethods and classmethods is an 
operation that is (or will be) frequently used as compared to the other 
decorators.  So it would be great if there was an obvious, shorthand way 
for doing that as well.

Even better (IMO) would be a solution that didn't really add any new 
keywords to the language, but instead simply formalized widely-used 
coding conventions, as was done to denote code block boundaries.

The use of indentation to identify code blocks is a wonderful example of 
Python shorthand.  It works (some even call it 'genius') because it 
leverages a coding convention shared by a majority of programmers.

A week or so ago on this forum, Stefan Eischet suggested that the type 
(static|class|instance) of a method should be inferred through 
examination of its first parameter.  I agree with his assessment.

The vast majority of instance methods I've seen all use 'self' as the 
first parameter.  Likewise, most class methods use 'cls' or 'klass' as 
their first parameter.  If we exploit these conventions, we end up with 
a simple, clear, obvious mechanism for denoting (this aspect of) a 
method's type.

     class Foo(Object):
         def m1(self, a, b):    # this is an instance method of Foo
             pass

         def m2(cls, a, b):     # this is a class method of Foo
             pass

         def m3(a, b):          # this is a static method of Foo
             pass

And for backwards compatibility, a special Object (capital 'O') class 
could work this magic so that old code didn't break.

I know that this is odd.  But then so are most of the great things about 
Python.

Paul




From me at privacy.net  Sun Aug  1 10:53:07 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Duncan Booth)
Date: 1 Aug 2004 14:53:07 GMT
Subject: Microbenchmark: Summing over array of doubles
References: <4d642979.0407312049.7a8aecab@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Xns95389B9391F5Eduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>

bulatov at engr.orst.edu (Yaroslav Bulatov) wrote in 
news:4d642979.0407312049.7a8aecab at posting.google.com:

> I made an array of 10 million floats timed how long it takes to sum
> the elements, here's what I got (millis):

I just had a brief look at the code you posted. Are you not concerned about 
accuracy in any of your calculations? Summing a 10 million element array by 
simply accumulating each element into a running total is guaranteed to give 
a lousy result.

Also, without running it I don't see how most of your Python examples work 
since you seem to call the timing function with the result of the 
calculation which doesn't make sense.



From lbates at swamisoft.com  Mon Aug 30 10:44:51 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:44:51 -0500
Subject: Get Parent path value (bad design) Help
References: <mailman.2601.1093875943.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <MYKdnbLACbDCoK7cRVn-tQ@comcast.com>

I think what you want is:

import os
pathname=os.getcwd()
parentpath=os.sep.join(pathname.split(os.sep)[:-1])
sys.path.append(parentpath) #append the path back to sys.path

This is shorter and portable.

HTH,
Larry Bates
Syscon, INc.



"Golawala, Moiz M (GE Infrastructure)" <Moiz.Golawala at ge.com> wrote in
message news:mailman.2601.1093875943.5135.python-list at python.org...
Hi all,

What I am trying to do is write some generic code where I can get the path
of the parent directory. for example if current working directory is
'Z:\\dirA\\Parent\\Child'

I want to get a string which up like 'Z:\\dirA\\Parent'
Then I do a sys.path.append('Z:\\dirA\\Parent')

The code I have written below does all this.. but I have a feeling there is
a better way to do this.. Please can someone help me.

import os
import sys
pathname = os.getcwd()
pathString = ''
pathList = pathname.split("\\")

pathList.pop()  # removes the child
lastItem = pathList.pop() #remove to the parent, will be added back later.
counter = 0
while counter != len(pathList):  #build up the path with items in the list
    pathString = pathString + pathList[counter] + "\\\\"
    counter +=1
pathString = pathString + lastItem #add parent back to the built up path
sys.path.append(pathString) #append the path back to sys.path


Thanks,
Moiz Golawala




From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Fri Aug 20 10:30:04 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:30:04 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision !! IMPORTANT THREAD !!
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<du7hdqyxezw.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>
	<LtnVc.4602$Jn5.465@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<du7vffdj38m.fsf_-_@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>
Message-ID: <MVnVc.4611$Jn5.1612@fe1.texas.rr.com>

"Ville Vainio" <ville at spammers.com> wrote in message
news:du7vffdj38m.fsf_-_ at lehtori.cc.tut.fi...
> >>>>> "Paul" == Paul McGuire <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> writes:
>
>     Paul> I'm afraid I have to agree, the subject is a poor one.  I
>     Paul> noticed that yesterday as the responses were slow to come
>     Paul> in.  Something more on the order of "READ THIS - IT'S
>     Paul> FREAKIN' IMPORTANT!"  is surely warranted.
>
> Yup - for those just joining in, post somewhere in this thread, it
> involves voting that all pythonistas know & love (along with the
> associated grain of salt that goes with it here in
> pythonland). Instructions in the root message.
>
> -- 
> Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb

Will you vote now?   :)




From me at privacy.net  Mon Aug  2 22:15:50 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Dan Sommers)
Date: 02 Aug 2004 22:15:50 -0400
Subject: Class optimization at runtime
References: <mailman.1061.1091479321.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<j7WdnXBx-dEhMZPcRVn-hA@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <m2hdrl2ch5.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>

On Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:06:03 -0500,
"Larry Bates" <lbates at swamisoft.com> wrote:

> Kind of hard to tell what you are trying to accomplish
> but I'll try.  Define the class with no if/else statements.
> They only get parsed once.  It is the "class instance"
> creations that may get created millions of times.  They
> will be inside your logical structure.

> class Foo:
>     def __init__(self):
>         # do stuff

> class Bar:
>     def __init__(self):
>         # do stuff

> if option: x=Foo()
> else:      x=Bar()

Similarly:

    class FooWithOption:
        def __init__( self ):
            # whatever

    class FooWithoutOption:
        def __init__( self ):
            # whatever

    if option:
        Foo = FooWithOption
    else:
        Foo = FooWithoutOption

    x = Foo( )

Alternatively:

    module WithOption:
        class Foo:
            # whatever
        class Bar:
            # whatever

    module WithOutOption:
        class Foo:
            # whatever
        class Bar:
            # whatever

    if option:
        from WithOption import *
    else:
        from WithoutOption import *

    x = Foo( )

I guess it depends on how similar the with and without classes are as to
which one will be easier to maintain.

In either case, there's only one test and no additional overhead at
class instantiation time.

> HTH,
> Larry Bates

Regards,
Dan

-- 
Dan Sommers
<http://www.tombstonezero.net/dan/>
Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.


From ake.ljungbert3 at comhem.se  Tue Aug 10 18:56:32 2004
From: ake.ljungbert3 at comhem.se (?ke)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 15:56:32 -0700
Subject: compiling with msvc7
References: <875af5e2.0408071735.4c1fdf89@posting.google.com>
	<4115da69$0$161$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<144d0df.0408092027.4f93f29a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <875af5e2.0408101456.fb122b5@posting.google.com>

grv575 at hotmail.com (grv575) wrote in message news:<144d0df.0408092027.4f93f29a at posting.google.com>...
> "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote in message news:<4115da69$0$161$9b622d9e at news.freenet.de>...
> > ?ke wrote:
> > > I am trying to comile C code to python with weaver, using Microsoft
> > > Visual Studio .NET (which I think uses VS 7.0)  but I get an error
> > > that Python is compiled with VS 6 and so doesn't work.
> > > 
> > > Anyone knows a workaround for this ?
> > 
> > Recompile Python, or buy VC6.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Martin
> 
> garlic

Well it's actually a very good compiler. You don't have to use .NET or
anything like that, ordinary C++ code works very well. I tried devC++
but it just didn't  work with graphics on Windows systems.

?ke


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug  6 10:09:56 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 10:09:56 -0400
Subject: Buy a vote!  (was Re: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was
 Decorator syntax))
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1256.1091769064.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1256.1091769064.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <weadnfi70qOpDI7cRVn-qA@powergate.ca>

Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy) wrote:

> Anthony Baxter wrote:
> 
>>The solution, if you don't like the syntax, is not voting. It's to
>>propose an argument that Guido will accept, in favour of your
>>preferred option. 
> 
> I see this less as a vote, and more an attempt to reach a community
> consensus - or at least a large enough one to lend weight to the many
> arguments that have already been presented.

I suggest that everyone with an opinion on the matter visit the
page at http://www.python.org/psf/donations.html and make a donation,
preferably sized in relation to the strength of your opinion. (*)

Afterwards, we can just visit the updated list of donors and base
the final decision on whether the Atecksan are higher up in the list
than the Listecksan or not.  (And if they are, we can still consider
just banishing them all to Blefuscu, or make them wear high heels or
use Perl or something.)

> I will live with pie-syntax, but I won't be overly happy with it. I
> would much prefer that list-after-def be accepted.

Agreed.

-Peter

(*) I've just done so, since it seems like a more productive thing than
endless argument over the same issues.  And this way at least there will
be money to pay Anthony to do the right thing. ;-)


From shalabh at cafepy.com  Fri Aug 27 14:52:09 2004
From: shalabh at cafepy.com (Shalabh Chaturvedi)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:52:09 -0700
Subject: Class Friends
In-Reply-To: <20040827081556.657c3fac.a@c.d>
References: <20040827081556.657c3fac.a@c.d>
Message-ID: <cgnvpt$nuq$1@sea.gmane.org>

Sean Don wrote:
> Hello!
> 
> Is it possible to make classes friends in Python?

Not just possible - all Python classes are always friends with each 
other (something that rubs off Python programmers, I suppose :)

Shalabh



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 10:55:50 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 00:55:50 +1000
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <cft1h1$8ru$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <20040814153534.8AC171E4007@bag.python.org>	<D65D4928-EEBF-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>	<mailman.1687.1092584144.5135.python-list@python.org>	<frydnbvSiJeXF4LcRVn-oA@giganews.com>	<cfo7cg$k7p$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204081522014bb9c988@mail.gmail.com>	<cfq1p1$bde$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204081608247149972d@mail.gmail.com>	<cfqq7l$a9p$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed204081706284b20ea8d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cft1h1$8ru$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204081707554af14159@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:34:26 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Damn straight - that's awful. Why on earth would someone implement
> > that?
> >
> 
> I expected a :-) after your comment (as the behavior I describe is
> already being performed by the Python system)...

I know that. When writing something as obviously taking the piss as my comment,
I don't think it's necessarily to include a smiley - that's for the
people who don't
get humour, like Americans.

Anthony


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 30 04:07:39 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:07:39 +0200
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>
	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>
	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>
	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>
	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>
	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>
	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>
	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>
	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>
	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj8q2n.1fbrmbet624ssN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<mailman.2578.1093797146.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1gjbrlg.1efa44am6bcc0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Alex Martelli wrote:
> > Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >    ...
> > 
> >>Cool!  Thanks!  Now I need to ponder why a function's docstring needs a
> >>different implementation than a class's docstring (i.e. why not just
> >>make it a straigtforward attribute of the function object).
> > 
> > 
> > Historically, functions had docstrings before they had straightforward
> > attributes.  Maybe it could be that.
> > 
> > 
> > Alex
> 
> /*
> I have stared at your reply for three or four minutes now.  On the 
> surface, it seems that you are being genuinely helpful, and so I want to
> reply "Thanks. Of course.  That makes perfect sense."

Heh, I think you've wasted a few minutes here.

> 
> But then a lot of smart people say things that (on the surface) appear
> honestly helpful but in reality are suggestions that the reader do more
> research before asking questions that have such an obvious answer.

Doing your own research is good, of course.  But once you have, there's
no harm checking your conclusions on mailing lists.  Functions had a few
_non_-straightforward attributes (such as func_doc AKA __doc__ -- and I
don't recall which one came first) for a long time before they got
straightforward (==implemented with a dict) ones, after all.

> 
> I know that you're a smart person Mr. Martelli.  So I flipped a coin to
> decide which intreprtation of your reply to use, which came up tails,
> indicating the 2nd one.
> 
> Bahh. I prefer the superficial one (plz correct me if I'm wrong).
> */
> 
> Thanks.  That does make good sense.  They've had no reason to simplify
> the implementation for function docstrings, so "why fix it if it ain't
> broke."

Many object types have 'slots' ("non straightforward attributes") as
well as possibly a per-instance dict in which they may keep other
(straightforward) attributes.  I see no reason why moving attributes
from dedicated slots to a dictionary should be a simplification.  Take
attribute __name__: that's not in the dict for either functions or
classes (in functions, it's also known as func_name).  Why not?


Alex


From PPNTWIMBXFFC at spammotel.com  Thu Aug 19 03:29:36 2004
From: PPNTWIMBXFFC at spammotel.com (Marco Aschwanden)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:29:36 +0200
Subject: Editors again
References: <cfrbse$j8n$1@bagan.srce.hr>
Message-ID: <opscyxrmqc35jo5o@news.gmane.org>


http://wingware.com/ - WingIde 2.0 has all you want.




From iketo2 at netscape.net  Fri Aug 27 09:15:13 2004
From: iketo2 at netscape.net (Isaac To)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 21:15:13 +0800
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <87hdqok9i6.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>

>>>>> "Kjetil" == Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no> writes:

    Kjetil> how can Emacs tell?  if I press TAB and thus ask Emacs to
    Kjetil> re-indent the line, that's what it will do.

If the aim is simply to do a local change that is sufficient to deal
with the problem just in your computer, then the simplest answer might
be to use "pass": if your code contains

if t1 == t2:
    t1 = t3
else:
    t2 = t3
    pass
t = t2

and you tab at the last line, Emacs won't try to indent the t=t2 line
further to after the pass line where it is impossible to execute.

If you want something that is done globally and everybody will use
it... not a chance.

    Kjetil> arguably, the correct fix is to disable the "clever"
    Kjetil> re-indentation code of Emacs since it's too easy to fool
    Kjetil> it, but this makes coding more awkward in other cases.

The indent-region command of Emacs (M-C-\) is really disabled in
Python mode, I think it is done by nullifying the
indent-region-function.  Anyway, reindent makes sense only when the
indentation does not constitute the meaning of a program and thus the
editor can freely change it.  If indentation does mean something, it
doesn't make sense at all.

    Kjetil>   it also doesn't solve cut-n-paste errors.

Use C-c > and C-c < might work for you.

Regards,
Isaac.


From apardon at forel.vub.ac.be  Mon Aug 16 10:24:25 2004
From: apardon at forel.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 14:24:25 GMT
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<RGwTc.37687$js3.13758840@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<LIqdndnJz9N_pr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<slrnci0vhb.k3.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<nbudnY5S8Jl2Kb3cRVn-oQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <slrnci1gsp.k3.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>

Op 2004-08-16, Peter Hansen schreef <peter at engcorp.com>:
> Antoon Pardon wrote:
>
>> Op 2004-08-16, Peter Hansen schreef <peter at engcorp.com>:
>>>Did you really not indent your code in those languages consisntly
>>>anyway?
>> 
>> I can't answer for keith, but my answer is that it depends on
>> what you consider consistent.
>> 
>> My indentation was consistent with the structure of the algorithm.
>> That is not necesarrily the same as the structure you implemeted
>> that algorithm in.
>
> Huh?  How does an algorithm have structure that affects
> indentation?  It sounds like you are talking about some kind
> of artistic considerations here.

Simple: not all languages provide the same control structures.
So you have to use the control structures that are available
to simulate the control structure you really want to use.


>> I think that I should be the final judge of what is the most
>> appropiate way to use indentation, not the compilor/interpreter,
>> even if it agrees with me.
>
> So did you indent your code such that consecutive lines were
> not indented to the same identation level even when they were
> conceptually, logically, *algorithmically* part of the same
> block?

No, but although they were *algorithmically* not in the same
block, due to lack of control-structures they had to be
implemented as being in the same block. In a language as
python, this would force IMO the indentation to be wrong.


> I know there are such people out there.  I even had to fire one
> once, roughly because he had no concept of how his failure to
> write his code with anything resembling consistent indentation
> meant that it was unreadable to others.  (At least, that was the
> surface symptom which warned us of deeper problems.)  What I
> doubt is that many of those people are out there rejecting
> Python just because it doesn't let them write god-awful unreadable
> code with artistic or random indentation.

I don't reject python. There is still no language I find perfect.
I find python usefull and use it regularly, despite the details
I don't like about it. I don't like the enforced indentation,
even if I agree 99.99% of the time with the indentation python
enforces.

-- 
Antoon Pardon


From martin at v.loewis.de  Tue Aug 24 16:25:40 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 22:25:40 +0200
Subject: fun with unicode files
In-Reply-To: <6579x7eo.fsf@python.net>
References: <6579x7eo.fsf@python.net>
Message-ID: <412BA444.2010309@v.loewis.de>

Thomas Heller wrote:
> I wonder: do I really have to check for the BOM manually, or is there a
> Python function which does that?

If it can also be ASCII (or ansi?), then yes, you need to manually check
for the BOM. This is because you need to make an explicit decision in
the fallback case - Python cannot know whether it is ASCII if it is
not UTF-16. For example, it might also be Latin-1 or UTF-8 if it is not
UTF-16, or, say, iso-2022-jp.

Regards,
Martin


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Fri Aug  6 09:13:58 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:13:58 -0400
Subject: Confused about pep 318
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>	<ceu7ue$n3u$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<mailman.1244.1091758578.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<411304AB.F53A5275@alcyone.com>
Message-ID: <10h710cds2i4s18@news.supernews.com>


"Erik Max Francis" <max at alcyone.com> wrote in message
news:411304AB.F53A5275 at alcyone.com...
> Skip Montanaro wrote:
>
> >     Bengt> I too am very much against wasting '@' on @decorator!
> >
> > We could just switch completely to Unicode.  Then we'd have all sorts
> > of
> > punctuation characters available.  How about
> >
> >     # -*- coding: utf-8 -*-
> >     \xe2\x98\xbadecorator
> >     def f():
> >         pass
> >
> > ?
>
> Given how things are looking so far with the reaction to the decorator
> syntax, I'd say U+2639 might be more appropriate ...

Chuckle!

For those who haven't looked it up, it's a "sad face"
smiley (a frowney?)

John Roth
>
> -- 
>  __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
> /  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
> \__/ Drifting from woman-who-tries misconstrued / Shifting to
>     woman-wise -- Lamya




From luismg at gmx.net  Fri Aug 27 17:49:32 2004
From: luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 14:49:32 -0700
Subject: Dynamic languages
Message-ID: <278de0e.0408271349.26762174@posting.google.com>

I've been reading an article published in E-Week entitled "Microsoft
Lures Open-Source Programmer", which contains a definition for dynamic
languages as follows:

"Dynamic programming languages enable programs to change their
structure as they run."

I wonder if this definition is correct. 
Can we define dynamic languages this way?

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1636906,00.asp


From export at hope.cz  Mon Aug  9 08:47:38 2004
From: export at hope.cz (Lad)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 05:47:38 -0700
Subject: Apache web server and CGI
Message-ID: <81a41dd.0408090447.7f27a092@posting.google.com>

How can I set up Apache web server to use Python for CGI processing( for file *.py).
Thanks for help
Lad


From zathras at thwackety.com  Fri Aug 27 17:23:35 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 22:23:35 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Alex Martelli: Welcome back!
In-Reply-To: <slrnciunmu.tkp.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408272222350.24914-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Dave Benjamin wrote:

> It's nice to see you around here again!

It certainly is - and back with a BANG :-)


Michael.



From jpmorichon at earthlink.net  Thu Aug  5 11:43:25 2004
From: jpmorichon at earthlink.net (CptPicard)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 15:43:25 GMT
Subject: Need help on how to use Pymedia!
References: <AXgQc.508$nx2.344@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<cetiuv01vmi@enews4.newsguy.com>
Message-ID: <xAsQc.12061$Jp6.239@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>

Thank you for your help!

"3c273" <nospam at nospam.com> wrote in message
news:cetiuv01vmi at enews4.newsguy.com...
>
> "CptPicard" <jpmorichon at earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:AXgQc.508$nx2.344 at newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> > Hi,
> > I am currently trying to use pymedia so to get the following
informations
> > (author, song title, ...) from a mp3 file.
> > The documentation I downloaded is quite limited : It gives some clues on
> how
> > to get that information (method getInfo() from pymedia.audio.acodec).
> > However, it does not explain what has to be done prior to that call.
> > I downloaded pycar but it did not help me.
> >
> > Could someone give me a more detailed documentation on pymedia or some
> clues
> > on how to get the information I need ?
> >
> > Thanks for your help
> >
> Hi,
> I have never used pymedia but section 6.7 of the "Dive Into Python"
tutorial
> describes a class for getting mp3 file information. It is quite simple and
> if I recall correctly, it worked perfectly when I tried it. HTH.
> Louis
>
>




From adurdin at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 19:29:03 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 09:29:03 +1000
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
In-Reply-To: <3b2846c4.0408221506.1c3e33d2@posting.google.com>
References: <mailman.2154.1093185852.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<3b2846c4.0408221506.1c3e33d2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a040822162957f4d986@mail.gmail.com>

Certainly "using... def..." comes across very clearly to me. I think
it the best of the proposed keywords.


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Fri Aug 20 18:48:40 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:48:40 -0500
Subject: Install Python on win32 without modifying registry
References: <2260b3c5.0408200600.4c0550c4@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <NpCdndPGlrJb4rvcRVn-pQ@comcast.com>

Can you install any other programs on your computer
that don't write anything to the registry?  Microsoft
programs sometimes make 100's of registry changes.
You need registry entries to associate .PY programs
with Python, etc.  Not really sure why Python should
be expected to do something that hardly any other
modern program is expected to do.

HTH,
Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.

"QyRoN" <qyron_spam at safe-mail.net> wrote in message
news:2260b3c5.0408200600.4c0550c4 at posting.google.com...
> Hi
>
> I need to install python-2.3 on my computer. The problem is that
> python and many programs written in python (pythonwin for example) use
> registry for storing parameters on python installation. Is there a way
> to install without modifying the registry?




From pete at fenelon.com  Thu Aug 26 07:18:09 2004
From: pete at fenelon.com (Pete Fenelon)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:18:09 +0100
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<pg7qi0delhcvh0ej5r76i0qg10bm5kactd@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <htgkgc.6vu.ln@fenelon.com>

In alt.folklore.computers Giles Todd <g at prullenbak.todd.nu> wrote:
> 
> That's OK.  I've done it for you.  Now, try investigating "Rambling
> Sid Rumpo".
> 

I need to fossick through me ganderbag and work out a way of mp3ing my
taped collection of Rambling Syd's artefacts, me dearios.

pete
-- 
pete at fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas"


From prudek at bvx.cz  Sat Aug 21 06:28:07 2004
From: prudek at bvx.cz (Milos Prudek)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:28:07 +0200
Subject: popen child termination
Message-ID: <412723B7.1080002@bvx.cz>

How can I make popen (popen2, popen3) run and finish inside my program?

Example:

def Run(cmd):
     w,r,e = os.popen3(cmd)
     w.close()
     r.close()
     e.close()
Run('touch ~/xxx')
os.remove('~/xxx')

The example above fails with this error message for os.remove: "No such 
file or directory: '~/xxx'"

But when the os.remove line is deleted, the example correctly creates 
the xxx file.

I feel that os.wait() deals with this but I do not understand how to use 
it to do what I want.

-- 
Milos Prudek


From http  Mon Aug 23 05:13:48 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 02:13:48 -0700
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408230004350.22879-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>
	<mailman.2175.1093233838.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<q9OdnRDkR-VsMbTcRVn-pw@lmi.net>
	<mailman.2189.1093251786.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <7x1xhyjjxv.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> writes:
> using:
>     staticmethod 
>     accepts(int, str) 
>     returns(str) 
>     published(True)
> def bar(count, input):
>     return input * count

Semi-OT: since there's been all this noise about not wanting to
separate the decorators too much from the function name, etc., why are
"accepts" and "returns" decorators instead of having that stuff in
the function def itself?  E.g.:

   using:
      <whatever other decorators>
   def bar:str(count:int, input:str):
      return input * count

puts the info about the arg and return types where it belongs.  It
even looks a little bit Pascal-like.  I don't know if that last part
is good or bad ;-).


From MAILsweeper at hibernian.ie  Mon Aug 23 11:44:27 2004
From: MAILsweeper at hibernian.ie (MAILsweeper at hibernian.ie)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:44:27 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Mail sent to Hibernian has a virus !!!
Message-ID: <20040823154310.BA8CF1E4002@bag.python.org>

Mail sent to Hibernian was received with a computer 
virus infected attachment. The mail has been 
intercepted and did not reach the intended recipient. 
Sender please remove the virus from the message 
and resend the mail.

From:  python-list at python.org
To:  maria.mccabe at hibernian.ie

Subject: Re: Notify
Virus:  Scenarios/Incoming/Content Scanner: Threat: 'W32/Netsky-P' detected by 'Sophos AV Interface for MIMEsweeper'.
Scenarios/Incoming/Content Scanner: Threat: 'W32/Netsky-P' detected by 'Sophos AV Interface for MIMEsweeper'.
Scenarios/Incoming/Restrict Attachments In: 'ItemLength.GE.0'.


was blocked at Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:42:26 +0100



From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Fri Aug 20 03:24:11 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:24:11 +1000
Subject: html templates
In-Reply-To: <23vai09725mmg69tg3ji8d0dpi1mgd7fak@4ax.com>
References: <mailman.1998.1092968486.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<23vai09725mmg69tg3ji8d0dpi1mgd7fak@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1092986651.4125a71b73886@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>


> >also quixote offers a session management API? how secure is this
> session
> >management? is it just a cookie on the client side?
>
> "Just" a cookie?  How would you do session management more securely?

well what i really meant is whether the data is just kept on the cookie or
is  a hash of the data (and some random string) also stored. or do you
store the name of a tmp file on the cookie and the file itself contains
the session data.
i think i'll give cheetah a try

cheers



----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From pink at odahoda.de  Tue Aug 24 18:00:18 2004
From: pink at odahoda.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:00:18 +0200
Subject: Macro expansion: intercept statement interpretation
In-Reply-To: <opsc9o36ze1js0xs@news.telkomsa.net>
References: <opsc9o36ze1js0xs@news.telkomsa.net>
Message-ID: <cggdpo$vo6$00$1@news.t-online.com>

You could try to override __import__ to first parse the source for macro 
definitions and do the expansions. Usage would then be:

import DoMagicWithImportModule
import ModuleWithMacros

(Your code wouldn't work, because python throws a SyntaxError long 
before it even tries to execute 'import MyCustomMacroLib')
The code at http://docs.python.org/lib/examples-imp.html could be 
extended to first read the contents of the module (after find_module) 
and passes the expanded source (e.g. as a StringIO) to load_module.

This has of course the problem (that many implementations of macro 
expansion share) that line numbers in exception dumps have not much 
relation to lines of the unexpanded code...


From v451v at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 14:31:23 2004
From: v451v at yahoo.com (Jorl Shefner)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:31:23 -0400
Subject: ANN matplotlib-0.60.2: python graphs and charts
References: <mailman.390.1089823546.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<pecora-EEED6B.08213715072004@ra.nrl.navy.mil>
	<mailman.434.1089897874.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2p6oiuFhgiaoU1@uni-berlin.de>

In article <mailman.434.1089897874.5135.python-list at python.org>,
 John Hunter <jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu> wrote:

> >>>>> "Lou" == Lou Pecora <pecora at anvil.nrl.navy.mil> writes:
> 
>     Lou> Anyone have any experience running this on Mac OS X?  What
>     Lou> does it take to get it up and running.  I'm enticed.  Will
>     Lou> check it out on my own, too, but any info welcome.  Thanks.
> 
> Hi Lou,
> 
> In response to this thread on the mailing list
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=5124458&forum_id=33405
> I just made some changes to setupext.py (matplotlib's config script)
> to accommodate the tk framework under OS X (borrowed from PIL's
> setup.py).  You can get the updated file from
> http://matplotlib.sourceforge.net/setupext.py.  

> Good luck!
> JDH

  This is great to hear and much appreciated!  I had tried so many times 
(with several versions of matplotlib) get it running on OS X and always 
ended in frustration.
   Incidentally, I did recently manage to get it working (but only by 
installing the huge Scisoft binary bundle: 
http://www.stecf.org/macosxscisoft/) which finally got matplotlib up and 
running.  After using now for a few weeks, I've been hugely impressed 
with the quality of the plots and its ease of use -- definitely worth 
all the trouble to get it installed.  

J.S.


From cmedcoff at hotmail.com  Thu Aug  5 11:06:49 2004
From: cmedcoff at hotmail.com (cmedcoff at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 11:06:49 -0400
Subject: Complex Object Support in SOAP
Message-ID: <tvadnUJTMJeU0I_cRVn-vg@wideopenwest.com>

I'm working with a Java (Axis) based Web Service that accepts and returns
fairly complex object structures.  Are there any Python libraries that
supports clients for this type of a web service?  I've not seen a Python
Soap Library that generates proxies that might be used to create objects
that need to be passed as parameters to such a web service.  Any links,
suggestions are appreciated.




From indigo at bitglue.com  Sun Aug  1 21:41:30 2004
From: indigo at bitglue.com (Phil Frost)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 21:41:30 -0400
Subject: The term "Protocol"
In-Reply-To: <BruceEckel-0fzDpAZ1OhUMm8pRoVythkXevP3vGCO@mailblocks.com>
References: <cegqdu$2fb$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<mailman.1020.1091310303.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-FDE83B.19595731072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1022.1091319366.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011814020.21160-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1032.1091401185.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011957470.22508-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
	<1f7befae04080117515cbb0ca9@mail.gmail.com>
	<6910338109.20040801192523@MailBlocks.com>
	<BruceEckel-0fzDpAZ1OhUMm8pRoVythkXevP3vGCO@mailblocks.com>
Message-ID: <20040802014130.GA1516@unununium.org>

"Protocol" in python has no meaning beyond normal English. Specifically
the iteration protocol says the iterable must have a __iter__ method
which returns an object that has an __iter__ which returns self, and a
next() method that returns the next thing in the thing being iterated.
When there are no more things, next() raises StopIteration. All of this
is a simple protocol defined by the python language. It doesn't
introduce anything new to the language besides the protocol itself;
__iter__ and next are regular methods and StopIteration is raised just
as any other class can be raised as an exception.

On Sun, Aug 01, 2004 at 07:25:23PM -0600, Bruce Eckel wrote:
> Sunday, August 1, 2004, 6:51:15 PM, Tim Peters wrote:
> 
> > Iteration is a protocol, not a type.
> 
> I know the term "protocol" has been used to describe a language
> feature in a number of languages, but since we have no official
> "protocol" support in Python I'm interested in what "we" mean by this
> term. I'm going to guess that a protocol is like an interface in Java,
> except that it doesn't have a concrete definition anywhere, but it is
> implied through convention and use. Thus a protocol is a "latent
> interface." Am I close? I'd like to understand this term better.
> 
> Bruce Eckel


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Wed Aug 25 20:05:27 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:05:27 GMT
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bP9Xc.28243$v86.1203@fe2.texas.rr.com>

For.

Paul McGuire




From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Sun Aug  8 06:30:46 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 08 Aug 2004 12:30:46 +0200
Subject: pep-318 questions
Message-ID: <HBF.20040808xui@bombur.uio.no>

...and opinions:-)

I don't understand some of the arguments in pep-318 (version 1.19),
or what the current syntax has to do with some of the design goals
mentioned there.  Could someone explain?

> Design Goals
>
> The new syntax should
> (...)
> make it obvious what is happening; at the very least it should be
> obvious that new users can safely ignore it when writing their own
> code

Huh?  The current no-keyword, no-indentation syntax seems as far
removed from "obvious" as one could get for Python.

As for obvious that new users need not use it, it seems pretty hard
to _avoid_ meeting that goal.  Is it just included for completeness,
or does it mean something more than I see in the statement?

> not make it more difficult to scan through code quickly. It should
> still be easy to search for all definitions, a particular definition,
> or the arguments that a function accepts

The current syntax seems like the clear loser here too:
No whitespace above the function name.  Not too bad with a single
decorator, but several is a problem.  In fact, I think decorator-
before-def scales very badly in this respect, at least the syntaxes
without indentation.  And the way people are coming up with uses for
decorators, functions could end up with a lot of decorators.

Quoting Arthur, "Doesn't readibility require that you have the
ability to move in a direction down the page, and, if so, why am I
getting information about a method prior to the existence of the
method, before a proper introduction has been made, i.e. before I
even know its name."

Anyway, to me, decorator after the def's ':' seems like the clear
winner on the "easy to scan" point, decorator before ':' might
possibly be #2 (unsure here - it's "theoretically right" but some
posted examples look ugly), and a statement with indentation in
front of the def #3.  (Could indent just the decorators like the
'using' suggestion in the PEP, see below.)

> Alternate Proposals

> using:
>     dec1
>     dec2
>     ...
> def foo(arg1, arg2, ...):
>     pass
>
> The function definition is not nested within the using: block
> making it impossible to tell which objects following the block
> will be decorated.

Huh?  How is this different from telling which 'else:' is tied to an
'if:'?

It does give the def statement a new syntax in that it can be the
2nd part of a compound statement.  Is that what you mean - that
people who do not know about decorators won't know they must read
the 'using:' together with the 'def:'?  If so, it seems to me that
the cure is exactly the same as with the @ syntax: Don't put any
whitespace between the decorator and the def.  If you do put
whitespace there, both syntaxes lose readers who do not know about
decorators.  And probably some readers who do, as well.

> Nesting the function definition within the using: block suggests
> nesting of namespaces that doesn't exist.

Why, when try:, if:, for: and while: do not?
True, this surprised me when I learned Python.  But when I had
learned it, I had learned it.

> Finally, it would require the introduction of a new keyword.

Actually, I'm wondering about that too.  As far as I can see, if a
statement starts with one word and a colon, then the word is a
keyword.  If so, it would not be ambiguous to allow 'using', 'else'
and 'try' as variable names.  And since they are immediately
followed by the colon, the parser only needs one lookahead symbol to
tell that they are keywords.  Yet I do see that it might complicate
the parser somewhat, and allow more bugs or more obscure error
messages when someone forgets the colon.

Anyway, '@using:' could be an alternative, even if it has an excess
of special characters.  Or __future__, of course.

-- 
Hallvard


From mjackson at alumni.caltech.edu  Fri Aug 20 21:03:19 2004
From: mjackson at alumni.caltech.edu (Mark Jackson)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 01:03:19 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl> <ZFoVc.360$MR2.1503@news1.mts.net>
	<cg55p6$ofq$1@news.wrc.xerox.com>
	<JYuVc.410$MR2.2033@news1.mts.net>
Message-ID: <cg670n$3pv$1@news.wrc.xerox.com>

Reid Nichol <rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com> writes:
> Mark Jackson wrote:
> > Reid Nichol <rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com> writes:
> > 
> >>Gerrit Muller wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >>>and then a quantum leap towards Python.
> >>
> >>You're aware that a quantum leap means a extremely small leap, right?
> > 
> > 
> > Everything's relative - compared to the smallest possible change in the
> > classical continuum, a quantum leap is *huge*.
> > 
> 
> True, but this doesn't change the definition of the word.
> 
> from dictionary.reference.com:
> The smallest amount of a physical quantity that can exist independently, 
> especially a discrete quantity of electromagnetic radiation.

and Reid Nichol <rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com> writes elsewhere:

> Check the definition of the word.

and Reid Nichol <rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com> writes elsewhere:

> Peter Hansen wrote:

> > And at least some dictionaries give it as a synonym for "large"
> > or "significant".  (www.m-w.com for one)
> > 
> > -Peter

> Such things are only the result of a misunderstanding of the word some 
> time ago.  Even though it is wrong, it has become common use, thus the 
> incorrect definition definition(s).

from which we conclude that "check the definition" means "check the
definition in the dictionary *I* prefer". . . .

but Tim Hochberg <tim.hochberg at ieee.org> writes elsewhere:

> You might look at this, also from dictionary.reference.com:

> quantum leap

> A dramatic advance, especially in knowledge or method, as in 
> Establishing a central bank represents a quantum leap in this small 
> country's development. This term originated as quantum jump in the 
> mid-1900s in physics, where it denotes a sudden change from one energy 
> state to another within an atom. Within a decade it was transferred to 
> other advances, not necessarily sudden but very important ones.

from which we conclude that "check the definition" means "check the
definition in the dictionary *I* prefer. . .AND stop reading before it
contradicts the position I espouse."

Look, given the use of "quantum" in quantum physics it's reasonable to
expect the word to mean something small - but insisting it must do so
is flat-out wrong.  For one thing this isn't Gell-Mann appropriating a
nonsense word - "quark" - from Joyce; "quantum" was a perfectly good
English word before Planck applied it to black-body radiation.  The OED
has references going back to 1619 as a synonym for quantity.  (It even
has a use in pharmacology - "quant. suff!", famously chanted in Alfred
Bester's /The Stars My Destination/, is an abbreviation of "quantum
sufficit," roughly "as much as necessary.)

-- 
Mark Jackson - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
	Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it
	is the merger of state and corporate power.
				- Benito Mussolini




From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Tue Aug 31 11:29:34 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 17:29:34 +0200
Subject: has_method (solution found)
References: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C78AD@escpl.tcp.com.ar>
	<41347BC1.5020407@geochemsource.com>
	<mailman.2669.1093958907.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ch1v8m$pkp$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040831p25q@bombur.uio.no>

Eric Brunel wrote:

> def getmethod(obj, name):
>    meth = getattr(obj, name)

Because he doesn't know if the method exists?  He used has_key(), after
all.

Gandalf, you can use hasattr(obj, name) first, or you can use
getattr(obj, name, None) (or some other default value than None).

-- 
Hallvard


From luismg at gmx.net  Fri Aug 13 18:33:21 2004
From: luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 15:33:21 -0700
Subject: Pyhton Interpreter Startup time
References: <mailman.1556.1092304607.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <278de0e.0408131433.55445f3f@posting.google.com>

As far as I could see, the startup of python 2.3 is considerably
slower than python 2.2. It is something that really annoyed me when I
first installed Python 2.3 (and I did it in three different machines).
If the startup time is critical for your application, I suggest using
an older version of Python and, if possible, try to use Psyco to
improve its performance.


From karin.lagesen at labmed.uio.no  Mon Aug 16 06:34:00 2004
From: karin.lagesen at labmed.uio.no (Karin Lagesen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:34:00 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: sys.stdin.read() replacement
Message-ID: <slrnci13co.fh8.karin.lagesen@uracil.uio.no>

I am writing a small write-logfile script for use on the terminal. I have here
a section where the user should be able to type in several lines. I have solved
it so far by using sys.stdin.read(), which makes it possible to type in several
lines (separated by enter) and then terminate the session by typing ^D. This is
all very good. However, with this it is only possible to edit the line you are
in. If you spot an error further up in your text, you cannot get at it. Do any
of you know of a way I can do this? 

Thanks,

Karin
-- 
Karin Lagesen,
karin.lagesen at labmed.uio.no


From bbands at yahoo.com  Sat Aug  7 11:48:37 2004
From: bbands at yahoo.com (BBands)
Date: 7 Aug 2004 08:48:37 -0700
Subject: Fuzzy Logic
References: <79780d4f.0408010711.75df6f83@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <79780d4f.0408070748.78e56a2b@posting.google.com>

bbands at yahoo.com (BBands) wrote in message news:<79780d4f.0408010711.75df6f83 at posting.google.com>...
> Does anyone know of any fuzzy logic work done in Python?
> 
> The only thing I have found is logic.py, which has gone missing from
> the Vaults of Parnassus and the original site, 
> http://www.ourobourus.com/logic.py.
> 
>     --jab

A couple of answers to my own question:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/fuzzypy/

http://pyfuzzy.sourceforge.net/

Any other resources?

    --jab


From gherron at islandtraining.com  Sun Aug 22 15:11:38 2004
From: gherron at islandtraining.com (Gary Herron)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:11:38 -0700
Subject: Python is to C as letters are to words.
In-Reply-To: <b14bfabe.0408221055.4f2dc1e7@posting.google.com>
References: <b14bfabe.0408221055.4f2dc1e7@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <200408221211.38133.gherron@islandtraining.com>

On Sunday 22 August 2004 11:55 am, r holland wrote:
> My nine word description of the python language.

Huh ... Either you've got that backward, or I completely misunderstand
what you're trying to say?




From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Aug 24 03:48:10 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:48:10 +0200
Subject: Time-date as an integer
References: <mailman.2271.1093328889.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgerrq$ha8$02$1@news.t-online.com>

Charles Hixson wrote:

> This is a concept, not a finished program, and an extract from a class
> at that...so forgive any illegalities, but:

...but not the funny whitespace.

> import    datetime;
>   def    calcNodeId(self):
>     t    =    datetime.utcnow()
>     val    =    t.year *    133920000000    +          #    12 months
>                     t.month    *    11160000000    +    #    31 days
>                     t.hour    *    3600000000    +         #    60 minutes
>                     t.minute    *    60000000    +         #    60 seconds
>                     t.second    *    1000000    +    t.microsecond
>     if    val <=    self._dTime:
>       val    =    self._dTime + 1
>     self._dTime    =    val
>     return    val
> 
> This is the best that I've been able to come up with in getting a
> date-time as an integer.  It feels like one of the time or date
> libraries should have a better solution, but if so, I haven't found it.
> Can anyone suggest a better approach?

Have you considered a more lightweight approach?

>>> import itertools
>>> class Tree:
...     def __init__(self):
...             self.calcNodeId = itertools.count().next
...
>>> tree = Tree()
>>> tree.calcNodeId()
0
>>> tree.calcNodeId()
1
>>> tree.calcNodeId()
2
>>>

If you need the datetime information, just store the datetime, too.

Peter



From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Thu Aug 26 16:49:12 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:49:12 -0700
Subject: Newbie question on dictionary!!!
In-Reply-To: <494182a9.0408261150.a4c767f@posting.google.com>
References: <494182a9.0408261150.a4c767f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <10isj57fbl4eb75@corp.supernews.com>

Balaji wrote:

>Hello everybody...
>
>I want to ask a simple question.
>
>Suppose I have an list say g=['a','b','c','d']
>
>and I have an dictionary say k={'b':20,'a':10}
>
>Now I want to sort this dictionary on the basis of the list and if it
>doesnt find any of the element in the list then I wud like to replace
>it with zero..
>
>so I would like to modify k into {'a':10,'b':20,'c':0,'d':0}
>  
>

Dictionaries don't maintain any particular sort order.  (Or, 
technically, dictionaries are by definition sorted by the result of 
hash(value), which may not bear any resemblance to the sort order of 
value.)  So, we can't get your dictionary sorted the way you want, but 
we *can* fill in the undefined keys.

You want to use the dictionary method get().  It will return the value 
of a key, or a specified default value if that key isn't found.  You can 
then assign the result of that back into the dictionary under the same key.

for key in g:
    k[key] = k.get(key, 0)

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From sheldon.johnston at home.firstnet.se  Tue Aug 10 16:16:14 2004
From: sheldon.johnston at home.firstnet.se (Sheldon)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 13:16:14 -0700
Subject: Image
Message-ID: <76655b52.0408101216.196f452b@posting.google.com>

Hi,

Does anyone know how to read an array back into python after writing
it to a .dat file using tostring()?

My method using Image results in a valueerror: data is not enough...

x = open('file.dat')

array = x.read()

print array : results in unreadle garble while

im = Image.fromstring('I', (81,81),array)
gives the valueError: data not enough...

The tutorial on Image leaves a lot to be desired.

Any help or new ideas would be welcomed!

thanks,
Sheldon


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Wed Aug  4 12:46:51 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 12:46:51 -0400
Subject: PEP 318 - PyFIT comments
Message-ID: <10h24oace15n97a@news.supernews.com>

Decorator syntax seems to have been checked into 2.4b2.
I'm not going to comment on the syntax other than to say
that, when there isn't a real obvious syntax, someone has
to make a decision, and this one should work.

I was originally against it, on the basis that the only
use cases I saw were the elimination of the staticmethod()
and classmethod() builtin functions. I've used them, and
they're not ideal, but something like decorators for that
one use case seems to be going after a fly with a
howitzer.

Andrew Kuchling's comments here:
http://www.amk.ca/diary/archives/cat_python.html#003255
and especially the comments he quotes from Jim Hugunin
got me to thinking again about it. I can't quite see what
Thomas Heller is getting at with ctypes, though.

My current interest is in PyFIT. It's a Python
port of Ward Cunningham's FIT acceptance
testing program (fit.c2.com). I had to add a general
metadata mechanism to it to make it work cleanly
(the original port by Simon Michael tried to use
RExec, which obviously no longer works as well
as having major ambiguity problems.) There's an
early release in the download section at

http://www.xprogramming.com/software.htm

The current releases are in the files section of the
Extremeprogramming and the Fitnesse Yahoo mailing
lists.

When I looked at the metadata problem, I really
wanted a mechanism that would allow me to attach
metadata to any object in the class object. I can
do that to function objects, but I also need to do
it to properties and more general objects (such
as strings and integers.)

This doesn't, unfortunately, allow me to do that.

John Roth




From ville at spammers.com  Wed Aug 18 16:21:56 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 23:21:56 +0300
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <du7wtzwfb8b.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>

27 years, 4 of them with awareness of how much the other languages I
have/had to work with suck.

BTW, even though usenet might not really scale all that well for this
kind of thread, it's been delightful to see how so many are still
actively hacking at a respectable age. It really sets an example for
us younger ones, some of whom are possibly worried about how to
preserve the energy level of youth and whether they can still hack it
when they "grow up".

I'm also optimistic about retiring with Python, because *everyone* is
going to retire with Python in 2044 :-).

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 06:49:49 2004
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 03:49:49 -0700
Subject: print question - character representation
References: <mailman.2504.1093588872.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <6f402501.0408270249.56d48a41@posting.google.com>

Ajay <abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au> wrote in message news:<mailman.2504.1093588872.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> hi!
> 
> i am calculating a digest of some data (using hmac) and printing it to a
> cookie. the problem is the hash may contain special characters. when these
> are printed they get converted to \<number> representation.
> later when i receive the cookie i recalculate the hmac and do a comparison
> which returns false because of the conversion when writing to a cookie
> 
> q - how do i stop the conversion from happening? if i cant then how can i
> convert the hmac i recalculate on receiving the cookie to the same
> representation as the one printed
> 
> thanks
> 
> cheers
> 
> 
> 

One way is to use a binary to ascii conversion - like the binascii module.

Regards,

Fuzzy

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html


From trentm at ActiveState.com  Mon Aug 16 18:28:30 2004
From: trentm at ActiveState.com (Trent Mick)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:28:30 -0700
Subject: Editors again
In-Reply-To: <cfrbse$j8n$1@bagan.srce.hr>;
	from ivoras@__-geri.cc.fer.hr on Tue, Aug 17, 2004 at 12:18:52AM
	+0200
References: <cfrbse$j8n$1@bagan.srce.hr>
Message-ID: <20040816152830.C27169@ActiveState.com>


[Ivan Voras wrote]
> Are there any editors besides IDLE that can display doc-strings[*] in 
> popups? I tried SPE and DrPython, and while they are ok (better said 
> 'not horribly bad'), they don't seem to have that option.
> 
> I'd like to see in an editor:
>   - code-completion in case of functions, member variables etc. 
> ("intelli-sense"? :) )
>   - useful usage of doc-strings, maybe integrated python Help/Manual support
>   - MDI or similar style, with good navigation (this is why I don't like 
> IDLE)
> 
> Actually, SPE is pretty close, but auto-completion seems to behave 
> 'funny' sometimes, and no doc-string support I can see...

You could try Komodo. The recently released 3.0 has much better Python
autocomplete/calltip support. (Note: I work on Komodo so I am biased.)

    http://www.activestate.com/Products/Komodo/

Cheers,
Trent


-- 
Trent Mick
TrentM at ActiveState.com


From python at rcn.com  Tue Aug 31 18:34:30 2004
From: python at rcn.com (Raymond Hettinger)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 15:34:30 -0700
Subject: Generator expressions v/s list comprehensions
References: <mahesh-525B07.12195528082004@individual.net>
Message-ID: <5d83790c.0408311434.3cc38c24@posting.google.com>

[Mahesh Padmanabhan]
> Now I see that generator expressions have been added to the language 
> with 2.4 and I question the need for it. I know that it allows for lazy 
> evaluation which speeds things up for larger lists but why was it 
> necessary to add it instead of improving list comprehension? 

FWIW, we improved list comprehensions too.  They run much faster now.


Raymond


From fuf at mageo.cz  Thu Aug  5 06:50:42 2004
From: fuf at mageo.cz (Michal Vitecek)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 12:50:42 +0200
Subject: distutils frustration
Message-ID: <20040805105042.GB14544@foof.i3.cz>

 hello everyone,

 i've been trying to write a distutils setup.py to compile and install
 getdate module by Jeff MacDonald. unfortunately, it seems that
 distutils doesn't support either bison or running a custom Makefile.
 moreover and most importantly it doesn't look like it's easy to add a
 support for files with the '.y' extension.

 please, prove me i'm wrong (i'd be happy to) :)

    thank you,
-- 
		fuf		(fuf at mageo.cz)


From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Tue Aug 10 15:27:25 2004
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:27:25 -0700
Subject: Simple hashcash implementation
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1432.1092123984.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1432.1092123984.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <411923f1$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

barnesc at engr.orst.edu wrote:

> Here's a simple hashcash implementation in Python.
> 28 lines of actual code....

Looks like you've spent a bit of time on this.  If you do think it
is generally useful, why not put it in the Python Cookbook?
     <http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Python/Cookbook/>

-Scott David Daniels
Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Tue Aug  3 22:32:49 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay Brar)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 12:32:49 +1000
Subject: Crypto.PublicKey.RSA.error: Plaintext too large
In-Reply-To: <CuCdnUpgaY4vhI3cRVn-sA@powergate.ca>
References: <mailman.1094.1091546280.5135.python-list@python.org>	<HZmdndW9gsV8L5LcRVn-rg@powergate.ca>	<mailman.1103.1091572142.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<CuCdnUpgaY4vhI3cRVn-sA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <41104AD1.3080909@mail.usyd.edu.au>

Peter Hansen wrote:

> Ajay Brar wrote:
>
>> Peter Hansen wrote:
>>
>>> Ajay Brar wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am getting an error - Crypto.PublicKey.RSA.error: Plaintext too 
>>>> large - when verifying the signature of a document. ...
>>>
>>>
>>> Carriage Return/Line Feed problems?  Or trailing newline problems?
>>
>>
>> thats what i am going to investigate now. But even if there were 
>> trailing newline or carriage return characters, shouldn't the verify 
>> return false instead of giving the error.
>
>
> I couldn't say, not having used that particular API.  What does
> the documentation say it should do?  Always return just True or
> False?  Does it not make reference to this type of error?
>
> -Peter

the documentation says verify should return true or false. it will 
generate an error if plaintext is too large - which is not helping me much
i have pinned the problem down to the signature itself and the way i am 
downloading it.
what i do is when a user clicks on a signature link, i calculate the 
signature on the fly and then do
print "Content-type: application\n"
print signature
i am using content-type application to force explorer to give the 
download dalog box (the application i am building will later be ported 
to a pocket pc). Microsoft on their website said to put the header 
"Content-disposition: attachment;filename=blah" to force dowload, but 
that didn't work - i am yet to find out what i am doing wrong?
so any ideas on how i send the signature across and make the user 
download it?

btw, are there other free Python cryptography packages?

thanks

cheers

-- 
Ajay Brar
CS Honours 2004
Smart Internet Technology Research Group

http://www.it.usyd.edu.au/~abrar1



From jacek.generowicz at cern.ch  Mon Aug 30 03:41:15 2004
From: jacek.generowicz at cern.ch (Jacek Generowicz)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 09:41:15 +0200
Subject: Class Friends
References: <20040827081556.657c3fac.a@c.d>
	<pan.2004.08.27.12.55.20.844417@jerf.org>
Message-ID: <tyfu0ulnkdg.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>

Jeremy Bowers <jerf at jerf.org> writes:

> In Python, there isn't much of an idea of "Private";

**** ALERT: Rantbot trigger activation 8986232 ****

Rant title: Encapsulation and access restriction are orthogonal
            concepts.

Rant variant: Python.

Rant summary:

  The concept of privacy existis in Python. Please don't confuse
  privacy with access restriction.

  Python supports encapsulation. Please don't confuse encapsulation
  with access restriction.

  Encapsulation is data abtraction; access restriction is a pain in
  the arse.

Rant body:

    <SUPPRESSED>


> Some people would use "self.__x", to get the psuedo-private name
> munging invoked.

... access restriction for the really dense.

If the programmer is too dumb to figure out the name mangling scheme
and work around it, then he (and the project he is working on) has
some serious problems, to the extent that accessing private data when
he shouldn't becomes but a drop in the ocean.



From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  6 17:01:42 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 17:01:42 -0400
Subject: @decorators
In-Reply-To: <cevucu$kor$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
References: <d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa@posting.google.com>
	<cevucu$kor$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
Message-ID: <4113f1b8$1@nntp.zianet.com>

David Fraser wrote:
> I like this idea. What about using the list syntax instead of the @
> syntax:
> 
> [static, synchronized, types(int, int), returns(None) ]:
 >   def foo():
>     pass

<rant level="hysterical">
No, no, NO! Lists are value expressions: not statements, not 
declarators, and most certainly not suites!!!
</rant>

Sorry, just had to get that out of my system... :)

Seriously, though, one problem I see is that this can get obfuscative 
really fast as the number or complexity of decorators grows:

   [static,
    synchronized,
    types(int, int),
    returns(None),
    yet,
    more,
    decorators,
    go,
    here,
    making(this),
    quite,
    the( (pain, to, read, past))
    ]:
     def foo():
       pass

By the time I've read all of that, I've likely forgotten what it was I 
was looking for in the first place. Of course, the @ syntax as it stands 
has the same problem, but at least it doesn't introduce spurious 
indentation in the process.

> This would then take away the argument against a valid list before a
> def being valid python but not previously having any effect...

Right. At the expense of a grammar that is nonsensical when viewed in 
the context of how those symbols work elsewhere in the language. Here we 
have a list (okay), containing a bunch of function names (okay), which 
get called via side-effect on something not explicitly indicated 
(er...), and starts a block of code (say what???).

The (){}[] symbols all already *mean* something in python (often more 
than one thing, actually). The @ doesn't mean anything yet, so it is a 
perfect candidate for a completely new concept such as this. I just 
think that they put it in the wrong spot.

> declare [static, synchronized, types(int, int), returns(None)]:
 >   def foo():
 >     pass
 >   def bar():
 >     pass

People keep suggesting this one, and I just don't see it. Yes, it's 
shorter (marginally, sometimes). But is it really clearer? I don't think 
so. Now, instead of just having to look at the preceding few lines to 
figure out what decorators are being used, you have to look up an 
arbitrary number of lines. Not fun when one's functions start getting 
real-world sized.

I understand the desire to reduce the redundancy, but even this small 
example shows a fundamental problem with this approach. In all but the 
most simple cases, most functions will end up with *different* sets of 
decorators. Case in point: both foo and bar above take (int, int) and 
return None. Such parity rarely survives in the wild. This leaves us 
with even more of a mess:

  declare [static, synchronized]:
    declare [returns(None)]:
      declare [types(int)]:
        def foo(a):
          pass
      declare [types(int, int)]:
        def bar(a, b):
          pass
    declare [returns(int)]:
      def baz():
        pass

I *shudder* to think of trying to sort this out when these functions 
contain real code.

(FYI: None of this is directed at you, personally. Your post just 
happened to be the first post I found suggesting this kind of syntax.)

   -- Mark


From jeffrey at I.slack  Mon Aug  9 10:49:45 2004
From: jeffrey at I.slack (Jeffrey Froman)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 07:49:45 -0700
Subject: Purely emotional perspective
Message-ID: <10hf3oaltbo7o74@corp.supernews.com>

I have only been using python for a few years, but I have loved it every
step of the way. Each time a new version was released, it contained
improvements that enhanced the readability and feel of simplicity (such as
list comprehensions, substring in string, ...). And each such improvement
delighted me even more, because this is exactly why I loved python in the
first place.

Now come decorators, introducing a non-alphabetic symbol (instead of say, a
new keyword), and worst of all for readability, they come *before* the
function declaration that they supposedly decorate.

I understand that doing things this way has certain technical advantages,
but this is the first time I (in my short history with python) have noticed
readability being sacrificed for any reason. It makes me sad. I feel like
my favorite organic food product decided to start using preservatives and
fillers to save money.

Jeffrey


From grv575 at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 31 00:56:26 2004
From: grv575 at hotmail.com (grv575)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 21:56:26 -0700
Subject: profiler
References: <mailman.2260.1093321039.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgg2mn$87r@odbk17.prod.google.com>
	<mailman.2299.1093379611.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <144d0df.0408302056.3e5b0255@posting.google.com>

does that flag just amount to adding -pg to the compile & link stages,
or is there more to it than that global change?  because I couldn't
get python to generate a gmon.out output file using a version of
python configured with the flag, but it did do so by just adding -pg
to OPTS and LDPATH I think it was.  But now it gives profiling output
but gprof dies with:

# gprof gmon.out
gprof: gmon.out: not in a.out format

Skip Montanaro <skip at pobox.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.2299.1093379611.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> Brett> As of Python 2.4 you can also compile in support for C-level
>     Brett> profiling into the interpreter (--enable-profiling).  See the
>     Brett> in-dev docs (http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/) for details.
> 
> Ummm... That's a pretty high-level url.  How about:
> 
>     http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/whatsnew/node11.html
> 
> instead.  Even though I was the guy that added the --enable-profiling flag
> to configure it still took me a couple minutes to find the above url. <wink>
> 
> Skip


From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Tue Aug  3 12:06:16 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 12:06:16 -0400
Subject: dislin interfaced with tkinter
In-Reply-To: <34c9b4fa.0408030743.594417f9@posting.google.com>
References: <34c9b4fa.0408030743.594417f9@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <peCdnaDF0e9lKpLcRVn-jA@giganews.com>

eesun wrote:

> I've downloaded the dislin package for the scientific plotting. And I
> have already created the application window with Tkinter (menu,
> canvas, status bar..). I want to integrate the Dislin plotting into
> the Tkinter application. For ex: show the dislin result on the Tkinter
> Canvas. Anyone can help?

I believe that dislin plots trough its own graphical device
that is independent of Tkinter thus cannot be integrated
with it.

You might want to try matplotlib, it has Tk backend

http://matplotlib.sourceforge.net/

the nice folks there might be able to help you out.

Istvan.



From insert at spam.here  Thu Aug 12 10:17:00 2004
From: insert at spam.here (Doug Holton)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:17:00 -0500
Subject: The winner of the Python Decorator Poll is...
In-Reply-To: <4edc17eb.0408112052.1bbd85b3@posting.google.com>
References: <Ue-dnX0CBNhaEYfcRVn-ig@comcast.com>
	<mailman.1533.1092259988.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4edc17eb.0408112052.1bbd85b3@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <xfWdnbEzLpJD5obcRVn-vw@comcast.com>

Michele Simionato wrote:
> Indeed. Actually I did not vote since I like the current proposal (maybe
> I would like "|"  more than "@") and I dislike all the alternatives,
> especially having decorators inside the def.
> 
> So the poll is unavoidably biased. Happily, we are not in a democracy!


Do you think there are 400 people out there that read about the poll but 
didn't vote because they like the current proposal as it stands?  That's 
what would have had to have happened for bias to completely invalidate 
the results.


From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  6 17:20:33 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 17:20:33 -0400
Subject: @decorators
In-Reply-To: <cf05e8$41d$2@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
References: <d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa@posting.google.com>
	<10h6v76mm313cce@news.supernews.com>
	<cf05e8$41d$2@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
Message-ID: <4113f622$1@nntp.zianet.com>

David Fraser wrote:
> John Roth wrote:
> 
>> "daishi" <google at daishi.fastmail.fm> wrote in message
>> news:d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa at posting.google.com...
>>
>>> For what it's worth:
>>>
>>> As far as I know, the proposed @decorator syntax will be the first
>>> time that two logical lines of python with the same indentation will
>>> not be independent of one another.
>>
>> Examples:
>>
>> try - except - finally
>> if - elif - else
>> while - else
> 
> I think he mean two consecutive lines of python code with the same 
> indentation.

That's how I took it. From another angle, each of the clauses in 
try/except/finally et al start a suite (i.e., end in ':'); @dec does 
not. Except for the funny symbol, it looks just like any other 
statement--but it sure doesn't act like one.

   -- Mark


From npat at efault.net  Tue Aug 17 03:14:35 2004
From: npat at efault.net (Nick Patavalis)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 07:14:35 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <mailman.1768.1092705638.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnci3c2q.4kh.npat@gray.efault.net>

On 2004-08-17, Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy) <tdelaney at avaya.com> wrote:
>
> No - it is a discussion about simplicity. Mobile phones were used as an
> example of something simple becoming les and less simple, to which you
> produced a denigrating response.
>

Sory if my response sounded denigrating. It was not my intention,
honest. 

All I wanted to point-out was that these devices are complex, and
there's no way arround it. They *do* require massive amounts of
software to work efficiently, and whether this complexity is visible
to the user (in the form of java-games, web-browsers, or whatever), or
hidden internally and visible only to the developers is another
issue. So even if your cell-phone has the simplest user-interface in
the world, it still requires a lot of software to function, and this
software has to be written in some programming language.

/npat


From peter at engcorp.com  Sun Aug 22 11:20:42 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:20:42 -0400
Subject: Python future performance and speed
In-Reply-To: <roy-37CEFC.10153622082004@reader1.panix.com>
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<roy-37CEFC.10153622082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <wt6dncL0d4DMJLXcRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>

Roy Smith wrote:

> Speed is the primary limitation for mainstream acceptance of high level 
> (aka scripting) languages in general.  I can think of no reason why so 
> much software is still written in languages like C++ other than 
> performance (or at least, the perception of it).

I'm glad you added that parenthetical comment, because I'm nearly
certain that it is *not* actual experience with Python, and
disappointment with its speed, that is the cause.

Far more likely, it seems to me, is that the primary limitation
for mainstream acceptance of scripting languages(*) in general
is ignorance.  More specifically, a lack of knowledge of their
capabilities or ability to handle the job.  I'm quite sure there
are far more people out there doing C++ or Java work who have
never *heard* of Python, than people who have heard of it and
have the perception it is too slow for their work, though
appropriate in other ways.

-Peter

* I limit this to scripting languages since it's quite certain
that the mainstream *has* accepted high level languages quite
fully.  The last time I checked, Java and C++ (even C) were
widely considered to be high level languages.  Has someone been
raising the bar while I wasn't looking?


From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 12 19:47:51 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:47:51 -0400
Subject: Verbosity Check Style
In-Reply-To: <m28yckf8ls.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
References: <mailman.1563.1092324234.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<m28yckf8ls.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
Message-ID: <411c01a8$1@nntp.zianet.com>

Dan Sommers wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:23:49 -0400, <brianc at temple.edu> wrote:
>>I would like to get people's views on the best way to implement
>>verbosity (or any command-line option) into python scripts.
> 
> Use the logging module (new in 2.3).  I think that verbosity equates to
> the INFO level.

Not always. Many programs have multiple levels of informative verbosity, 
where each level exposes "more" information. Of course, the additional 
information can be viewed as DEBUG, but there can be multiple levels of 
that, too.

Even if you want more than one level of verbosity, you can still use the 
logging module (or any other facility, for that matter). I use a Verbose 
class, which I pass an instance of to anything in my code which wants to 
log something. A simplified version would be:

class Verbose:
   import sys as __sys
   def __init__(self, verbosity = 0, log = __sys.stderr):
     self.__vebosity = verbosity
     self.__log = log
   def __call__(self, verbosity, msg):
     if verbosity >= self.__verbosity:
       print >>self.__log, '*' * verbosity, msg

if __name__ == '__main__':
   # Test
   import sys
   verbose = Verbose(4, sys.stdout)
   verbose(1, "Level one message.")
   verbose(3, "Level three message.")
   verbose(5, "Level five message.")

Which gives the following output when imported:

* Level one message.
*** Level three message.

The nice thing here is that, once you've got it in a class, you can 
subclass it. This allows you to add helper methods to make logging 
certain types of information easier, or to support different types of 
logger. You can even use it to switch at runtime between using the 
logger module, dumping straight to a stream, or both.

I find it to be quite flexible.

   -- Mark


From mwh at python.net  Thu Aug  5 14:27:32 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 18:27:32 GMT
Subject: Confused about pep 318
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<10h4s026oapbhf1@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <m3ekmltp7v.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

"Edward K. Ream" <edreamleo at charter.net> writes:

> Indeed, pep 318 is grossly misleading; 

PEP 318 has a slightly sorry history.  As far as I can remember, it
was written as an attempt to promote a specific syntax proposal (the
'as' variant?  Maybe, it's not really important).  Since then it's
been co-opted to be "The Decorators Pep" and received various rounds
of rewrites, none of which have pleased everyone (surprised?  with
this topic).  I belive it's fair to say that PEP 318 has *never*
accurately reflected the state of play on this issue.

This is unfortunate, yes.  The idea that the process goes from pep to
discussion back to pep to implementation is a nice one, but not really
how it happens, for better or worse.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
112. Computer Science is embarrassed by the computer.
  -- Alan Perlis, http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/perlis-alan/quotes.html


From mikeb at mitre.org  Wed Aug 18 15:50:21 2004
From: mikeb at mitre.org (Mike Brenner)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:50:21 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
Message-ID: <4123B2FD.72E8D730@mitre.org>

I was born about 10,000 years ago and I used to
program computers made of human beings who
were aligned in tiers. The bottom tier counted
the grains in the baskets. The next tier
counted the baskets in the barn, then the
number of brans in each country.



From jjl at pobox.com  Thu Aug 12 15:44:46 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 20:44:46 +0100
Subject: ClientCookie
References: <6f402501.0408110018.1e4e5ca8@posting.google.com>
	<87llglqp0l.fsf@pobox.com>
	<6f402501.0408120108.5a8f03ae@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <87zn50gmz5.fsf@pobox.com>

fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord) writes:
[...]
> At the moment I can't get at the cookies at *all*. Can you see what
> I'm doing wrong.
> Here's my code (simplified) :
[...]
> cj = ClientCookie.CookieJar()
> req = ClientCookie.Request(theurl, txdata, txheaders)
> u = openfun(req)
[...]

It's not magic!  You aren't using cj anywhere!


John


From kyleroot at gmail.com  Sat Aug  7 10:08:37 2004
From: kyleroot at gmail.com (Kyle Root)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 14:08:37 GMT
Subject: Questions about parsing XML
In-Reply-To: <cf2mn0$gqn$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>
References: <%T4Rc.150$Iv.46@trndny03> <cf2mn0$gqn$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>
Message-ID: <Fn5Rc.209$Kv2.21@trndny09>

Jarek Zgoda wrote:
> 
> 
> libxml2 (http://www.xmlsoft.org/) has excellent support for XPath, F.
> Lundh's ElementTree also supports some XPath expressions, although it is
> built on expat and needs to parse whole XML document.
> 

Well I was going to use that, but I remember reading somewhere that 
xmlib was depreciated or something, even if it has been do you still 
recommend libxml2 over expat?


From justin__devine at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 26 12:28:32 2004
From: justin__devine at hotmail.com (Justin)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 09:28:32 -0700
Subject: Specific request with code example (encapsulation) __init__
	problems
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2436.1093533260.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgl33g$1oh@odah37.prod.google.com>

Thanks I finally got it working.  Big help.  What's the difference
between SetLabel and SetItemLabel.  Below is a paste form the wx manual
and it didn't contain that function, that's why was confused.  It now
works but maybe you can help me understand this better.  Is
SetItemLabel a generic function of wxControl or wxObject.  Thanks again

wxRadioBox::wxRadioBox
wxRadioBox::~wxRadioBox
wxRadioBox::Create
wxRadioBox::Enable
wxRadioBox::FindString
wxRadioBox::GetCount
wxRadioBox::GetLabel
wxRadioBox::GetSelection
wxRadioBox::GetStringSelection
wxRadioBox::GetString
wxRadioBox::Number
wxRadioBox::SetLabel
wxRadioBox::SetSelection
wxRadioBox::SetStringSelection
wxRadioBox::Show


wxRadioBox::SetLabel
void SetLabel(const wxString& label)

Sets the radiobox label.

void SetLabel(int n, const wxString& label)

Sets a label for a radio button.

Parameters

label - The label to set.
n - The zero-based button index.




Richie Hindle wrote:
> [Justin]
> > my problem is now it appears that my widgets are completely
> > encapsulated within this __init__ class and I cannot get at them.
>
> That's not true if you say "self.x = y", as you have done with
self.rb in
> your posted example.  I don't know why your code doesn't work - you
seem to
> be doing the right thing, and if I modify your Gobblewx_7public_.py
to match
> your posted example then it all works.
>
> Here's what I did: I downloaded Gobblewx_7public_.py (a couple of
days ago,
> when you first mentioned it) changed 'rb' to 'self.rb' throughout the
> Gmainpanel.__init__ function (lines 484-493), and added the line:
>
>             self.rb.SetItemLabel(1, "test change")
>
> as the first line of the yousuredlg function (line 571).  When I fill
in the
> form and hit "Download files", the label changes.
>
> Note that it's SetItemLabel, not SetLabel, which implies that you
never
> called your changelabel function, or you didn't look at the resulting
> traceback...
> 
> -- 
> Richie Hindle
> richie at entrian.com



From thomas.krueger at gmx.net  Mon Aug 30 17:34:42 2004
From: thomas.krueger at gmx.net (Thomas =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kr=FCger?=)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:34:42 +0200
Subject: dtml-sendmail
References: <d939e346.0408301245.35dc0b3b@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <ch06hl$kd2$07$1@news.t-online.com>

shashaank wrote:

> --snip--
> <dtml-comment>Send email</dtml-comment>
> <dtml-try>
> 
>        <dtml-sendmail smtphost="MailHost" mailto="<dtml-var email>"
> mailfrom="sales at quietcare.info">
> Subject: Confirming your account.
> 
>        </dtml-sendmail>
>        <dtml-except>
> Sorry, we could not process your email.
> <p><dtml-var error_type>: <dtml-var error_value><pre><tt>
> <dtml-var error_tb></pre;></tt></p>
> </dtml-try>
> 
> --snip--

1. Don't indent the lines of the mail. All header lines must not start with
any whitespace character.
2. Using dtml syntax inside a dtml-tag will not work.
3. You need to define the mailhost.

example:
<dtml-sendmail mailhost="MailHost">
Subject: Some subject
To: <dtml-var mail>
From: somebody at somedomain.net

Some text!
</dtml-sendmail>

Thomas



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 13:17:42 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 03:17:42 +1000
Subject: __name__ becoming read-write?
In-Reply-To: <3b8ki0tlphodtt8ge8an274qp78ihp1i3n@4ax.com>
References: <uutji0h87t24cb1nej03gdggs0hg6eno3l@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2205.1093275632.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<c94ki0dgh70ud7e1ok8sshlvg4pe96s4h8@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2211.1093279236.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<3b8ki0tlphodtt8ge8an274qp78ihp1i3n@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082310174d97da55@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:00:39 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
> I see the point.
> 
> But.. there is always a but.
> 
> I'm thinking now a special sytnax item in the __form__ at the top of
> function that would:
> 
> 1) put one on notice that the function is to be transformed (as in
> "see below").
> 
> 2) allow a name to be assigned to it, which will become the
> transform's __name__.

This is a bad idea - code inside the function should be executed when
the function is executed. docstrings are a special-case (because
they're not actually code), but, to be honest, this whole discussion
has made me deeply uncomfortable with where the docstrings sit at the
moment. Once 2.4 is out, I know I'll probably start using something
like:

def doc(str):
    def endoculate(func, str=str):
        func.__doc__ = str
        return func

@doc('''This function frobulates the meta-whatsit''')
def frobulate(metawhatsit):
    .....

(insert final decorator syntax as required)

Paul Morrow's idea of special magic __foo__ inside the function is
deeply magical, and not likely to make any new users running across it
any happier. "So wait, this stuff that _looks_ like code in a
function, isn't actually? what the hell?" The new syntax[1] for
decorators is at least very obvious that something _new_ is going on.
This has been one of the things I've been using as an internal filter
for various syntax proposals for decorators. It should _not_ look like
some existing valid python that "just happens" to have a new effect.
I'd also prefer that the syntax _not_ be valid python in pre-2.4, in
case code accidently gets run under an old interpreter. The decorator
usage I have planned will be very very ugly if the decorators _don't_
get applied to the function, for whatever reason.

[1] whether @syntax, or block-before-def


From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Sat Aug  7 19:52:50 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 19:52:50 -0400
Subject: Image manipulation library under a GPL-compatible license?
In-Reply-To: <2nl3suF1vntdU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <2nl3suF1vntdU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <m_CdnXePbPrf9ojcRVn-qQ@giganews.com>

Leif K-Brooks wrote:

> I need to do some simple image editing (pretty much just scaling) in a 
> GPLed program. Unfortunatly, both of the Python libraries for image 
> editing that I found (gdmodule and PIL) are under the GPL-incompatible 
> original BSD license. Is there another library under a friendlier library?

heh, GPL is a lot less "friendly" than the Python license.

Here is the python license:

"The gist of it is that Python is absolutely free, even for commercial 
use (including resale). There is no GNU-like "copyleft" restriction."

http://www.python.org/doc/Copyright.html

now what part of this is givin you trouble?


Istvan.



From jorgencederberg at hotmail.com  Tue Aug  3 10:05:16 2004
From: jorgencederberg at hotmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F8rgen_Cederberg?=)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 16:05:16 +0200
Subject: intersection of 2 strings
In-Reply-To: <e3dbc412.0408030437.bc62176@posting.google.com>
References: <e3dbc412.0408030437.bc62176@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <iYMPc.395$aF2.53@news.get2net.dk>

Antoine Logean wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> What is the easiest way to get the intersection of two strings in
> python (a kind a "and" operator) ?
> ex:
> 
> string_1 = "the_car_of_my_fried_is_bigger_as_mine_but_my_girlfriend_is_more_beautifull"
> 
> string_2 =
> "my_girlfriend_is_more_beautifull_and_has_blue_eyes"
> 
> and the intersection :
> string_1 "and" string_2 = "my_girlfriend_is_more_beautifull"
> 
> thanks for your help
> 
> Antoine

Hi

difflib seems to appropiate, http://docs.python.org/lib/module-difflib.html
and especially
http://docs.python.org/lib/sequence-matcher.html

Here is some code that works

from difflib import SequenceMatcher
s1 = "my_girlfriend_is_a_python"
s2 = "my_girlfriend_is_more_beautifull"
m = SequenceMatcher(None, s1, s2)
print "Matches between: %s and %s" %(s1,s2)
for match in m.get_matching_blocks():
     i,j,n = match
     if n>1:               # We don't want to match single chars.
         print s1[i:i+n]

HTH
Jorgen Cederberg


From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Fri Aug 27 03:46:47 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 03:46:47 -0400
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2p86vlFhmko4U1@uni-berlin.de>

Robert Brewer wrote:
> This is a call for all who wish to sign the proposal, either for,
> against, or abstaining.

For.

Leif K-Brooks.


From JSmuts at clover.co.za  Tue Aug 31 07:28:52 2004
From: JSmuts at clover.co.za (Jaco Smuts)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:28:52 +0200
Subject: Python Usage Statistics
In-Reply-To: <bba535b4.0408310322.248af2b0@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <OF6AC07BA0.90431D13-ON42256F01.003EF86D-42256F01.003F119F@clover.co.za>

Don't know about usage statistics, suspect it's not as great as I'd like 
it  to be.

I'm sure there's some data available on the average age of python 
programmers though







anandpillai at letterboxes.org (Anand Pillai)
Sent by: python-list-bounces+jsmuts=clover.co.za at python.org
08/31/2004 01:22 PM
 
        To:     python-list at python.org
        cc: 
        Subject:        Python Usage Statistics


Hi Folks 

     (posting after a loooong time...)

    I have been contracted by an Indian publisher to author an
introductory text book on Python. As a part of the introductory
chapter, I thought it would be a good idea to present a number, a
round-about figure on the approximate *actual* usage of Python out
there in number of developers and/or installations.

    Scrounging the Web for such statistics is proving elusive. The PBF
website seems to be the official place for these, but there also they
just have listings of companies/instituitions using Python, not any
numbers.

    Has anybody done an actual market survey anytime recently on
Python usage in the software community? If so, where can I get access
to this information? I would be more interested in the number of
developers, both commercial/non-commercial who are doing development
using Python. Since almost every Linux distro now a days contains
Python by default, a number based on the installations could prove
faulty.

Have a nice day.
 
-Anand
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

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From zathras at thwackety.com  Sun Aug 22 12:47:28 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 17:47:28 +0100
Subject: [PATCH] RE: J2 decorator grammar
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408221104090.22879-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>
	<mailman.2147.1093173853.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4128ac0f$0$79299$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>
	<mailman.2156.1093189097.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4128d2f1$0$54951$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>

Anthony Baxter wrote:

> On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 15:01:39 +0100, Michael Sparks
> <zathras at thwackety.com> wrote:
>> It should be done sometime this afternoon though. (Bulk of the time taken
>> up is on re-running the test suite unsuprisingly)
> 
> One quick point - make sure you run the _full_ test suite (-uall arg
> to regrtest,
> or 'make testall'), otherwise things like the compiler tests won't get
> run.

Hmm... Didn't know about that version... Running that now and the following
2 tests fail:
   * test_bsddb3
   * test_ossaudiodev

However, these fail for me when using a vanilla 2.4a2 so whilst not ideal
these failures (probably) aren't due to my changes. 

Everything else passes. 

My next steps are this:
   * Change keyword
   * Do short/simple/single line form
   * Produce patch for CVS version.

Regards,


Michael.



From PeterAbel at gmx.net  Tue Aug  3 17:48:34 2004
From: PeterAbel at gmx.net (Peter Abel)
Date: 3 Aug 2004 14:48:34 -0700
Subject: intersection of 2 strings
References: <e3dbc412.0408030437.bc62176@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <21064255.0408031348.634de20f@posting.google.com>

al at biolinux.ch (Antoine Logean) wrote in message news:<e3dbc412.0408030437.bc62176 at posting.google.com>...
> Hi,
> 
> What is the easiest way to get the intersection of two strings in
> python (a kind a "and" operator) ?
> ex:
> 
> string_1 = "the_car_of_my_fried_is_bigger_as_mine_but_my_girlfriend_is_more_beautifull"
> 
> string_2 =
> "my_girlfriend_is_more_beautifull_and_has_blue_eyes"
> 
> and the intersection :
> string_1 "and" string_2 = "my_girlfriend_is_more_beautifull"
> 
> thanks for your help
> 
> Antoine

If you take J?rgen Cederberg's solution you can inherit from
str and create your own "&"  operator.

>>> class mystring(str):
... 	def __and__(self,other):
... 		m = SequenceMatcher(None, self, other)
... 		equals=[]
... 		for (i,j,n) in m.get_matching_blocks():
... 			if n>1:
... 				equals.append(self[i:i+n])
... 		return equals
... 				
>>> s1=mystring(string_1)

>>> s1 & string_2
['my_girlfriend_is_more_beautifull']

Regrads
Peter


From cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca  Tue Aug 17 18:01:42 2004
From: cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca (David M. Cooke)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 18:01:42 -0400
Subject: flex: plex?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408172148210.3812-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <qnkk6vx1l15.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>

At some point, Peter Kleiweg <in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am looking for a Python equivalent of Flex. After some
> browsing, it seems that Plex is my best bet, but I would like to
> hear suggestions before I dive in.
>
> I have been using Flex a lot in combination with C programming.
> I never use Yacc (or Bison), though Flex and Yacc are supposed
> to be used together. But I found Yacc too cumbersome, and
> unnecessary. Yacc is about context-free grammars, nice if you
> like to describe an input language as a set of context-free
> rewrite rules. Flex is about finite-state automata, but can be
> extended to push-down automata (equivalent to context-free
> grammars) and beyond, as long as it stays deterministic. I found
> this to be very productive. I prefer automata over rewrite rules.

If you've been using Flex, you might want to check out FlexModule at
<http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mcguire/software/fbmodule/>
which allows you to use Flex to generate a lexer callable from python.

-- 
|>|\/|<
/--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
|David M. Cooke
|cookedm(at)physics(dot)mcmaster(dot)ca


From davidf at sjsoft.com  Thu Aug 19 15:35:46 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:35:46 +0200
Subject: Py2Exe PROBLEM
In-Reply-To: <81a41dd.0408191109.1fc98889@posting.google.com>
References: <81a41dd.0408190023.44d34c44@posting.google.com>
	<2tGdncgUvpKRD7ncRVn-oQ@powergate.ca>
	<81a41dd.0408191109.1fc98889@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cg2vei$pun$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

Lad wrote:
> Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message news:<2tGdncgUvpKRD7ncRVn-oQ at powergate.ca>...
> 
>>Lad wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I try to make an exe file from my script with help of Py2exe but I am
>>>not successfull.
>>
>> ...
>>
>>>When compilation finishes I get:
>>>
>>>The following modules appear to be missing
>>>['blackbox', 'timing', 'rgs.py']
>>>
>>>Can you please help me how to solve the problem?
>>
>>If you explain what problem you are actually having.
>>
>>Are you assuming simply because of that warning message that
>>it didn't work?  What happens when you try to run the resulting
>>.exe file?
>>
>>Note that py2exe will sometimes complain about modules that
>>are not actually required for the program to run.
>>
>>Also please explain what "blackbox" and "timing" are, if
>>they are part of the problem.
>>
>>Finally (and this might be the whole problem), you seem
>>to be using "import rgs.py" when you really meant to use
>>just "import rgs".  You don't import Python modules using
>>the full filename of the source file...
>>
>>-Peter
> 
> 
> Dear Peter,
> Thank you for your help.
> Yes, I changed import rgs.py to import rgs but I still receive
>  >>The following modules appear to be missing
> 
>>>['blackbox', 'timing', 'rgs.py']
> 
> 
> When I try to start the exe file I get 
> 
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "rgs.pyc", line 561, in OnFileHistory
>     
>   File "pickle.pyc", line 1390, in load
>   File "pickle.pyc", line 872, in load
>   File "pickle.pyc", line 985, in load_string
> LookupError: unknown encoding: string-escape
> 
> Can you please help again?
> Lad

You need to add "encodings" to the list of packages that you manually 
include (the option is called packages I think) - see the py2exe wiki

David


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 14:02:47 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 04:02:47 +1000
Subject: Confused about pep 318
In-Reply-To: <10h4s026oapbhf1@corp.supernews.com>
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com><mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org><d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com><Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<10h4s026oapbhf1@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040805110243768538@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 12:35:57 -0500, Edward K. Ream <edreamleo at charter.net> wrote:
> I could not disagree more.  Pretending that discussions on py-dev and
> SourceForge count as truly public discussions of pep 318 is most unwise.
> pep 318 does not discuss '@' at all.  People like me, with a strong interest
> in how Python uses '@', would not naturally have known about the proposed
> new syntax until the stuff hit the fan.

Sorry, but if discussions on python-dev are not considered "public", what is?
It's an open list, with publically available archives. Expecting the python-dev
team to read all of comp.lang.python is foolish - most of us have very little
spare time as it is. For instance, I usually only follow the list immediately
after a release. I have no time to wade through the hundreds of posts a day
on a regular basis. Indeed, I'm currently up way way too late at night to 
participate in this discussion, because the chances are I'll have no time 
tomorrow to do so.
 
> Indeed, pep 318 is grossly misleading; reading it one gets the distinct
> impression that the design is far from complete.  It is my strong opinion
> that _no_ public discussion of this new code has taken place, and none _can_
> take place until we see what it is exactly that is being proposed. 

See above. Exactly how is a public mailing list with an open subscription
policy, no limitations on who can post, and with web searchable archives,
not public. And if you think there hasn't been discussion on this matter, 
you obviously haven't even bothered to look at the archives. There has 
been a overwhelming amount of discussion on this.

> This is
> an issue of basic fairness and openness.  I have complained loudly to the
> [B]DFL.  We shall see...

Fariness and openness? This isn't a debating club! As far as fairness - well,
after all the discussions were had, Guido made a judgment call. That's what
he does. Python, thank the gods, is not designed by some system of voting
and the like.

To summarise:
As I've stated already, I'm aware that PEP 318 needs an update. If no-one
else gets it done before next week, I will have time to work on it again. If one
of the people complaining about it wants to sit down and trawl the (literally) 
hundreds and hundreds of python-dev messages, spread over the last 2+ 
years, and extract the relevant posts, that would be excellent! If you're only
going to sit and bitch about it, well, I can spend my time better trawling the
archives.

PEP 318 _will_ be updated and complete before 2.4 final is done - it's on my 
list as a blocker for the final. Ideally (and I plan for this) it will
be done before a3.

Anthony


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Sun Aug 29 10:09:09 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:09:09 +0200
Subject: Announcing PyCs, a new Python-like language on .Net
In-Reply-To: <1093788608.645541@news.commspeed.net>
References: <mailman.2572.1093751093.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1093788608.645541@news.commspeed.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408291606250.2571-100000@kleigh.nl>

Tom B. schreef:

>
> "Mark Hahn" <mark at prothon.org> wrote in message
> news:mailman.2572.1093751093.5135.python-list at python.org...

> > Please join the PyCs team.  The only effort involved is particpating in a
> > low-traffic, high-content, mailing list.  You will be able to influence
> the
> > design of the latest and greatest dynamic language.
> >
> > -- Mark Hahn, http://pycs.org
> >
>
> Python already does all the things that M*soft has tacked on in a kludgy
> way, in a beautiful pythonic way. I have been using windows based machines
> for a long time and in the language department (as well as others) M*soft
> has been superceded by the open source community.

Is there a real danger that MS will make its own version of
Python, pushing it into the market, and we end up with a
dominant version that only works with MS software?

-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html

The Halloween Documents: http://www.opensource.org/halloween/



From bokr at oz.net  Mon Aug  9 12:09:33 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 16:09:33 GMT
Subject: Maybe, just maybe @decorator syntax is ok after all
References: <du7n017ni6o.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>
	<b840abf4.0408080422.44fcf41c@posting.google.com>
	<b840abf4.0408090607.722880a2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cf87jt$bra$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

On 9 Aug 2004 07:07:54 -0700, artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR) wrote:

>artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR) wrote in message news:<b840abf4.0408080422.44fcf41c at posting.google.com>...
>> <snip>
>> @dec1
>> @dec2
>> def foo():
>>     pass
>> 
>> <snip> 
>> 
>> and after the second:
>> 
>> def foo():
>>     pass
>> 
>> foo = dec2(foo)
>> 
>> foo = dec1(foo)
>
>The latter is equivalent to:
>
>def foo():
>    pass
>foo = dec1(dec2(foo))
>
>But I've just noticed that the spec says:
>
>"""
>@f1
>@f2
>def func(): pass
>
>is equivalent to:
>
>def func(): pass
>func = f2(f1(func))
>"""
>
>So the order is reverse, which breaks my previous interpretation. Oh, well...
>
I think your example is not from the PEP. What "spec" are you citing?
Note the order in the example cut and pasted from the current
(Last-Modified:	2004/08/06 18:34:15) pep 318:
----
The current syntax for function decorators as implemented in Python 2.4a2 is:

@dec2
@dec1
def func(arg1, arg2, ...):
    pass

This is equivalent to:

def func(arg1, arg2, ...):
    pass
func = dec2(dec1(func))
----

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From scott.b.drummonds.nospam at intel.com  Wed Aug 11 16:29:21 2004
From: scott.b.drummonds.nospam at intel.com (Scott Brady Drummonds)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:29:21 -0700
Subject: 'break' Causes Execution of Procedure?
References: <cfdif9$hhm$1@news01.intel.com>
	<10hkq3u54ht2h4e@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <cfdvj2$obm$1@news01.intel.com>

"Jeff Shannon" <jeff at ccvcorp.com> wrote in message
news:10hkq3u54ht2h4e at corp.supernews.com...
> I suspect that the answer is in the context of the for loop.  Try
> posting a bit more of the surrounding code.  (For example, it's not at
> all clear how your loop relates to the main() snippet that you posted...)

Sorry.  I know that it's better to post actual failing code is much better
than snippets for exactly this reason.  However, there is so much code that
I believe to be superfluous to this problem that I really wanted to make the
post simpler.  To answer your question, the loop that I posted occurred in
the main() loop.  That is, calling 'break' inside this loop resulted in a
call to the function that 'break' was called in (which happens to be
main()).

> Actually, I'm wondering why you catch the exception inside the loop, and
> then exit the loop.  If you wrapped that entire loop in the try/except,
> then you wouldn't need to worry about using break -- an exception would
> end the loop and *then* get dealt with.

After reading your suggestion, I'm wondering why I caught the exception in
the loop as opposed to outside of the loop.  I changed the implementation as
you suggested and my program is now working correctly.  Of course, something
tells me that I just covered up a bug as opposed to removing it.

Scott


-- 
Remove .nospam from my e-mail address to mail me.




From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 31 14:36:52 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:36:52 -0400
Subject: "Content-Length" header
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408311952580.1193-100000@kleigh.nl>
References: <ch07ui$edo@odbk17.prod.google.com>
	<96c2e938.0408302057.61df147b@posting.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.31.13.04.27.995780@jerf.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408311952580.1193-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <0LadnRdAsPfbWKncRVn-ug@powergate.ca>

Peter Kleiweg wrote:
> Jeremy Bowers schreef:
>>Both cases: 52 ^ 8: 53,459,728,531,456 (53 trillion)
 >
> A bit less: 53 billion
> 
>>One case  : 26 ^ 8: 208,827,064,576 (208 billion)
> 
> 208 billiard

North American English says twelve zeroes is a trillion,
and nine zeroes is a billion, and the word "billiard"
refers to a game involving the use of a stick to hit a
white ball into other balls on a table covered with
green felt...

(And I'm not sure "billiard" refers to numbers in any other
form of English either, but certainly "milliard" exists
in Britain and means a thousand million (nine zeroes).)

-Peter


From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 03:23:35 2004
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 00:23:35 -0700
Subject: XMLObject - problem with recursive definitions
Message-ID: <6f402501.0408222323.5fd81b2a@posting.google.com>

I've been using the excellent XMLObject and have unfortunately come up
against what *looks* to me like a bug - although it's very possible
that the problem is  mine  !!

I want to use XML object to create an XML structure that represents
the contents of a directory structure. I call it a DirObj. Each DirObj
needs a list node that can itself contaibn several more DirObj -
effectively a 'recursive' definition.

It looks something like this :

class XMLDirObj(XMLObject):
    """An XMLObject version of a DirObj."""
    attrs = ItemNode('DirAttributes')
    files = ListNode('XMLFileObj')
    dirs = ListNode('XMLDirObj')

A DirAttributes object is an object representing the set of attributes
of the directory, an XMLFileObj is an object representing the set of
attributes of each file in the directory. Unfortunately when I use the
toXml and then the (classmethod) fromXml it mangles the values. (on
the read).

I've written a small test script with the simplest possible recursive
use of XMLObject and it doesn't appear to work. I wondered if this was
actually a bug - or whether I was doing something wrong. My test
script is below and from the sample output you'll see the error and
the assert failure at the bottom. The first print is ok (toXml) - but
then it reads it incorrectly (the second print).

Ouput :

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1" ?>
<thing abit="Hello My Friend">
  <thing abit="Recursion Test">
    <anotherthing abit="Yo Again"/>
  </thing>
  <anotherthing abit="Yo"/>
</thing>


<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1" ?>
<thing abit="Hello My Friend">
  <thing abit="Recursion Test">
    <anotherthing abit="Yo Again"/>
  </thing>
  <anotherthing abit="Yo Again"/>
</thing>
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "D:\Python Projects\dirwatcher\rec_test.py", line 67, in ?
    assert thestuff == thestuff2
AssertionError


####################


"""
rec_test.py

Demonstrates that recursion fails using XMLObject

:-(

"""


from XMLObject import *


########################################################################


class Thing(XMLObject):
    place = ItemNode('Anotherthing')
    anotherplace = ListNode('Thing')
    abit = CDATAttribute(optional=True)

class Anotherthing(XMLObject):
    abit = CDATAttribute(optional=True)


########################################################################
# Test Function

if __name__=='__main__':
    test1 = Thing()
    test1.abit = 'Hello My Friend'
    athing = Anotherthing()
    athing.abit = 'Yo'
    test1.place = athing
   
    test2 = Thing()
    test2.abit = 'Recursion Test'
    athing2 = Anotherthing()
    athing2.abit = 'Yo Again'
    test2.place = athing2
   
    test1.anotherplace.append(test2)
   
    thestuff =  test1.toXml()
    print thestuff
   
    testobj = Thing.fromXml(thestuff)
    thestuff2 = testobj.toXml()
   
    print
    print
    print thestuff2
   
    assert thestuff == thestuff2
#####################################

If anyone can see what I've done wrong it would be much appreciated.
(I've emailed the author - but as it's probably my fault I thought I'd
post here as well).


Regards, 

Fuzzy


    

-- 

http://www.Voidspace.org.uk 
The Place where headspace meets cyberspace. Online resource site -
covering science, technology, computing, cyberpunk, psychology,
spirituality, fiction and more.

---
http://www.Voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html
Python utilities, modules and apps.
Including Nanagram, Dirwatcher and more.
---
http://www.fuchsiashockz.co.uk   
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/void-shockz
---

Everyone has talent. What is rare is the courage to follow talent
 to the dark place where it leads. -Erica Jong
Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy.
         -Milan Kundera


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 30 07:35:50 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 07:35:50 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed2040829204464124dd8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgrecn$dgk$0$216.39.172.122@th
	<e69d3ed2040829204464124dd8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cgv3ek$qoj$1@sea.gmane.org>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 13:34:52 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>>Have you seen a significant number of cases where a function uses
>>>__xxx__ attributes as local variables?  Have you seen any?
> 
> 
> Locals, no. But builtins, yes. For instance, __import__.
> 
> So your proposal suddently has to deal with looking up _only_ locals,
> not globals or builtins.
> 
> I have asked this indirectly, and Jeff Epler's asked it more
> obviously, so, to restate it:
> 
> Have you actually got a concrete, written down proposal? Have you
> worked through how it might work, and what the impact on the language
> might be? I was hoping that you'd sit down and do what Bengt Richter
> did and posted to the newsgroup - worked out how this stuff works,
> under the hood, so that you weren't just hand-waving. Oh well.

Where would I put such a proposal?  Post it here?  And would it need to 
include an implementation?  I'm new to the bowels of the Python system, 
plus I've got a big project due this time next week, so it would be next 
week before I could really dig into something like that.

I guess I'm just a hand-waiver for now.

Paul



From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Mon Aug 23 10:50:22 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 16:50:22 +0200
Subject: __name__ becoming read-write?
References: <uutji0h87t24cb1nej03gdggs0hg6eno3l@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040823p9l@bombur.uio.no>

Arthur wrote:

> Did I hallucinate something about __name__ becoming read-write?

_Becoming_ read-write?  When was it read-only?

Python 1.5.2 (#1, Jul 14 2004, 20:34:28)  [GCC 3.2.3] on sunos5
Copyright 1991-1995 Stichting Mathematisch Centrum, Amsterdam
>>> class foo: pass
... 
>>> foo.__name__ = 'bar'
>>> foo.__module__ = 'baz' 
>>> foo
<class baz.bar at c5ee0>

-- 
Hallvard


From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 26 02:18:44 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 02:18:44 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2398.1093493689.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <20040819231139.D039A1E4003@bag.python.org>	<mailman.1999.1092969866.5135.python-list@python.org>	<eyqWc.223375$j62.10948731@phobos.telenet-ops.be>	<qVAWc.2328$MR2.9560@news1.mts.net>	<njemi0hrm3jb1kdc8mhg8krd9a4qu3e894@4ax.com>	<5cf809e9.0408241126.6e3fdd5b@posting.google.com>	<8ecda57b.0408251754.14ed27b9@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.2398.1093493689.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <aNidnUaV4-NZHbDcRVn-jA@powergate.ca>

Jonathan Daugherty wrote:

> # Started programming 'real' computers starting
...
> # win anything if you answer correctly :)
> 
> Is it just me or are these posts getting off-topic? :)

It's just you.  :-)

For myself, I'm finding the personal sharing fascinating, and
keep seeing hints of myself (or at least my past) in others.
What a cool bunch of geeks, eh?  ;-)

-Peter


From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 26 02:17:19 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 02:17:19 -0400
Subject: Best processor (i386) for Python performance?
In-Reply-To: <789f72ac.0408251950.e85d23e@posting.google.com>
References: <789f72ac.0408251950.e85d23e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <aNidnUeV4-PyHbDcRVn-jA@powergate.ca>

Tom Locke wrote:

> I'd be grateful if anyone could provide insight into choosing a good
> i386 processor for Python performance.
> 
> Are any of the following of particular importance, or less relevant,
> with respect to Python?
> 
> Raw clock speed?
> Cache size?
> Bus speed?
> Intel's Hyperthreading?
> AMD's 64 bits?
> 
> What about a dual processor? Can multithreaded Python take advantage
> of this? Is it stable?

I don't think anyone has yet studied this issue extensively.

Please buy one of each and let us know which one was fastest. ;-)

-Peter


From ben at benlast.com  Tue Aug 17 10:40:50 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:40:50 +0100
Subject: How big can a Python program be?
In-Reply-To: <bJCdnQW0W55aib_cRVn-oA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPOEAKCEAA.ben@benlast.com>

> From: python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org
> [mailto:python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org]On Behalf Of
> Peter Hansen
> In any case, the difficulty with writing infinitely sized
> programs is that your day to day productivity, relative
> to the size of the task at hand, is always zero...
And the ratio of documentation to lines of code is always zero also :)  On
the other hand, if you work for somewhere that still believes
lines-of-code-over-time is a good metric, you could be in for one heck of a
bonus...
b



From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Mon Aug 16 09:54:12 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:54:12 GMT
Subject: COM (DispatchEx) problem
References: <cfpqlu$nb6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>
Message-ID: <803Uc.14565$MD.3310@fe1.texas.rr.com>

"Leszek" <domcio_ at poczta.onet.pl> wrote in message
news:cfpqlu$nb6$1 at nemesis.news.tpi.pl...
> Hi everybody !
>
> I'm starting my script with:
>
> ie = win32com.client.DispatchEx("InternetExplorer.Application")
> ie.Visible = 1
> ie.Navigate("http://www.chip.pl")
>
> while ie.Busy == True:
>     win32api.Sleep(1000)
>
> doc = ie.document
>
> then I make "submit" and new page opens.
> but
>
> print doc.body.innerHtml
>
> gives the same Html code than before "submit". What is going on ? How to
see
> new document ?
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
> Leszek
>
If you are just trying to get at the HTML source for a given URL, use urllib
or urllib2.

Here's the code to get the HTML source for yahoo.com:

import urllib
serverListPage = urllib.urlopen( "http://www.yahoo.com" )
htmlSource = serverListPage.read()
serverListPage.close()

Bypasses the whole COM and IE mess, and it's portable, to boot!

-- Paul






From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Sat Aug 14 09:06:01 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 23:06:01 +1000
Subject: xml question
Message-ID: <1092488761.411e0e39ae122@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

i am trying to remove all whitespace elements out of a document.

my code is below

def stripWhiteSpaces(doc):
	whiteSpaces = xpath.Evaluate("//text()", doc.documentElement)
	counter=0
	while(counter< len(whiteSpaces)):
		str = whiteSpaces[counter].nodeValue
		string.strip(str)
		if len(str) == 0:
	       whiteSpaces[counter].parentNode.removeChild(whiteSpaces[counter])

		counter += 1
	return doc

however this isn't working. when i print out all the elements in the
document, i still get the whitespace text elements.
what am i doing wrong?

thanks

cheers


----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From amartin at wpsnetwork.com  Fri Aug 20 12:41:08 2004
From: amartin at wpsnetwork.com (Aurelio Martin Massoni)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:41:08 +0200
Subject: pyXLWriter - simple example code ?
In-Reply-To: <282f826a.0408192035.32687e48@posting.google.com>
References: <282f826a.0408192035.32687e48@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <2omnt7FcdpspU1@uni-berlin.de>


Richard Shea wrote:
> Hi - Anyone out there who has a simple example using pyXLWriter
> (http://sourceforge.net/projects/pyxlwriter/) they are willing to
> share with the group ?
> 
> I'm interested in creating a .XLS which has multiple sheets within the
> workbook but I'm having real trouble getting started, I can create a
> Worksheet but can't figure out how to save it.
> 
> thanks
> 
> richard shea.

########################################################################

import pyXLWriter

wb = pyXLWriter.Workbook( 'test.xls' )
ws1 = wb.add_worksheet( 'First' )
ws2 = wb.add_worksheet( 'Second' )
ws1.write( "A1", "January" )
ws1.write( "A2", "February" )
ws1.write( "A3", "March" )
ws1.write( "B1", 1.25 )
ws1.write( "B2", 2.50 )
ws1.write( "B3", 1.80 )
wb.close()

########################################################################

Hope this helps

	Aurelio


From mhuening at zedat.fu-berlin.de  Tue Aug 17 03:51:56 2004
From: mhuening at zedat.fu-berlin.de (Matthias Huening)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 07:51:56 GMT
Subject: how to display unicode in a Label in Tkinter
References: <8f17f4bc.0408151819.c06a79e@posting.google.com>
	<cfpop0$jlt$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>
	<8f17f4bc.0408161437.2f557935@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Xns9548645A49812mhueningzedatfuberli@130.133.1.4>

alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali) wrote in
news:8f17f4bc.0408161437.2f557935 at posting.google.com: 

> Eric Brunel <eric_brunel at despammed.com> wrote in message
> news:<cfpop0$jlt$1 at news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>... 
>> Ali wrote:
>> > I was wondering how one would go about displaying unicode in a
>> > Label object in a Tkinter window. I am trying to display text in
>> > another language. Please help.
>> 
>> Just put it in a Unicode string or in a raw string encoded in UTF-8
>> and you should be going:
>> 
>>  >>> from Tkinter import *
>>  >>> root = Tk()
>>  >>> s = '????: ?a marche!'
>>  >>> u = unicode(s, 'iso8859-1')
>>  >>> Label(root, text=u).pack()
>> 
>> (The code above supposes your default encoding is iso8859-1, a.k.a
>> latin-1; otherwise, you can do: s = '\xe0\xe9\xe8\xf9: \xe7a
>> marche!') 
>> 
>> HTH
> 
> So how I write in Arabic?

For Arabic you'll probably use Unicode (in which case you can just use 
the text in Tkinter) or you'll have tekst encoded as 'iso8859-6'. Then 
you have to use something like:
>>> u = unicode(s, 'iso8859-6')

Hope this helps.
Matthias


From timr at probo.com  Fri Aug 20 00:19:51 2004
From: timr at probo.com (Tim Roberts)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:19:51 -0700
Subject: My only complaint about Python
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <1uuai0l4k13g9gtv55fe7hh2c8io8grr3a@4ax.com>

Darren Dale <dd55 at cornell.edu> wrote:
>
>.... As a scientist funded by the NSF, I feel compelled to 
>do all my work using free software (I feel compelled to use free 
>software, regardless).

Then what on Earth are you doing with Windows?
-- 
- Tim Roberts, timr at probo.com
  Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.


From evenprimes at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 15:18:54 2004
From: evenprimes at gmail.com (Chris Cioffi)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:18:54 -0400
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <200408051851.08457.heikowu@ceosg.de>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051213180.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<200408051851.08457.heikowu@ceosg.de>
Message-ID: <f03f4fdf040806121816bf0b7d@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you for this example Heiko.  I wasn't really clear on what the
blazes decorators were, let alone why different syntaxes were being
suggested.

Now that I'm at least registering on the clue-meter (just a little,
mind) I think the propsed syntax is fine.  It's only going to be used
at the function definition level, and its form makes you pay attention
that something odd is going on here.

My first reaction was that Python was turning into Perl.  Now I think
it's good that the syntax is a little jarring and discordant.  I think
most people won't use function decorators very often so slapping us in
the face when it does happen is the visual clue we need to pay closer
attention.

Chris

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 18:51:08 +0200, Heiko Wundram <heikowu at ceosg.de> wrote:
[snip]
> 
> I don't think they try to solve all the things you state. Rather, it's only
> about general function mangling at compile time. Whatever you need to do for
> function mangling, that's up to you.
> 
> And, at least for me, as I stated elsewhere, the syntax is just fine. I've
> tried it out yesterday, porting some code to 2.4a2 which used thread locks
> extensively, and just writing a little class InstanceSynchronizer() which is
> just a Class which defines __call__ (when decorating a function) and gets the
> first parameter from the function call to acquire an instance specific lock
> is certainly the right way to go.
[snip]


-- 
Still searching for an even prime > 2!


From jradclif at math.unl.edu  Wed Aug 25 14:42:36 2004
From: jradclif at math.unl.edu (Jamie Radcliffe)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:42:36 -0500
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0408251341250.6935@erdos.unl.edu>


A newbie votes FOR.

Jamie Radcliffe



From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Thu Aug  5 16:58:07 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 16:58:07 -0400
Subject: Decorator syntax
In-Reply-To: <slrnch5684.15vo.kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu>
References: <mailman.1173.1091670172.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnch5684.15vo.kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu>
Message-ID: <keudnQvYrYzDAo_cRVn-gQ@giganews.com>

Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes wrote:


> class foo:
>     def introduceNewFeature(self, someArgument, anotherArgument): [synchronized, types="o,i,i"]
>         pass # whatever

Those who need argument type-checking should
go to Guido and talk to him about it. Piggybacking
this in as decorators makes everybody lose.

> 3) A large proportion of Python programmers are also Java programmers,
>    and won't object to the @-syntax.

yay. love is in the air.

Istvan.



From del at mjclift.freeserve.co.uk  Fri Aug  6 18:20:37 2004
From: del at mjclift.freeserve.co.uk (Calvin79)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 18:20:37 -0400
Subject: random from an array
Message-ID: <cd96c8ce3f407abab2a3c29b62ce4ecd@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>

Hi All,

I've just started to try python so forgive the ignorance!

I've been using this, or something like it;

First = random.choice ('abc')
answer = first
print answer - no problems there.

What I want to do, however, is take a random pick from something like the
following;

First = random.??? ("rna", "rnb", "rnc") - this of course "random.choice"
doesn't work.

Could some kind person help me out with the code? I know I'm trying to run
before I can walk, but there you go...

Thanks,

Calvin 



From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Sun Aug 29 13:01:04 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 10:01:04 -0700
Subject: os.walk: Get entire path
References: <cgssom$hu6$00$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <1093799393.448803@news.commspeed.net>


"Florian Lindner" <Florian.Lindner at xgm.de> wrote in message
news:cgssom$hu6$00$1 at news.t-online.com...
> Hello,
> when I'm walking through a file system hierarchy using os.walk, how can I
> get the full path of a file or dir? normpath and abspath don't work.
> Thx,
> Florian

I would use glob

import glob

glob.glob('c:\\images\\*\\*.jpg')

yields all .jpg's in //images and sub directories with full path in a list.

Tom




From ben at benlast.com  Mon Aug 16 07:38:20 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:38:20 +0100
Subject: sys.stdin.read() replacement
In-Reply-To: <412091C3.4000609@draigBrady.com>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPAENBCDAA.ben@benlast.com>

import readline will work on Windows:
a) if you're running the cygwin python, inside cygwin
b) if you've installed a readline module; there are at least two available.
Excuse me for the self-referential answer, but about half and hour before I
read this, I wrote a blog entry all about readline modules, with links to
and comments about the Windows ones.  The permalink is
http://www.livejournal.com/users/benlast/16766.html or it's the most recent
entry at http://www.livejournal.com/users/benlast/

Karin: if you do import a readline, you can then use sys.stdin.readline() to
read a line of input, and you should get some sort of history functionality
(up-arrow, for example, will recall a previous line).

regards
b

> -----Original Message-----
> From: python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org
> [mailto:python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org]On Behalf Of
> P at draigBrady.com
> Sent: 16 August 2004 11:52
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Re: sys.stdin.read() replacement
>
>
> Karin Lagesen wrote:
> > I am writing a small write-logfile script for use on the
> terminal. I have here
> > a section where the user should be able to type in several
> lines. I have solved
> > it so far by using sys.stdin.read(), which makes it possible to
> type in several
> > lines (separated by enter) and then terminate the session by
> typing ^D. This is
> > all very good. However, with this it is only possible to edit
> the line you are
> > in. If you spot an error further up in your text, you cannot
> get at it. Do any
> > of you know of a way I can do this?
>
>
> import readline
>
> (I don't know if it works on windos)
>
> P?draig.
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



From rkern at ucsd.edu  Mon Aug  2 14:52:35 2004
From: rkern at ucsd.edu (Robert Kern)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 13:52:35 -0500
Subject: Starkiller?
In-Reply-To: <278de0e.0408020648.6d187aff@posting.google.com>
References: <278de0e.0408020648.6d187aff@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cem2hk$l4h$1@news1.ucsd.edu>

Neuruss wrote:

> Does anyone have news about Starkiller?

I met Michael Salib recently, and he said it will be available shortly 
(maybe a month or two? I forget). The runtime will be BSD licensed and 
the application itself will be GPL.

-- 
Robert Kern
rkern at ucsd.edu

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
  Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
   -- Richard Harter


From whereU at now.com  Sat Aug 14 04:27:28 2004
From: whereU at now.com (Eric Pederson)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 00:27:28 -0800
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
Message-ID: <20040814002728.382239140.whereU@now.com>

Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:


> 	A source line is limited to 80 characters
> 	Statements start in column 7
> 	Statements end in column 72 (or was it 71)
> 	Columns 73 (72) through 80 can be used for an option sequence
> number
> 	If a statement is too long for one line, you put a continuation
> mark character (any character can be used) in column 6 of the next line,
> then continue with the statement
> 	Put a "C" in column 1 to start a comment line
> 	The target of GOTO, IF, and DO loops is identified by a numeric
> label.
> 	Labels are up to 5 digits long, located in columns 1 to 5
> 
> 	Oh, and within a statement, white space is ignored -- the
> following are the same statement:
> 
> 	circum = 2.0 * radius * PI
> 	c           irc um=2        .     0*r ad i u s*P             I
> 
> 	And one the following is an assignment, the other is the
> beginning of a DO loop:
> 
> 	do 10 i = 3.   14159
> 	do10i = 3,14159


Am I the only one who gets nostalgic from this?

I mean them were the days, when code was really |in code|

TIP:  And if your VW won't start you take a business card and run it between the ignition points to clean them off.


I always felt I should be able to visually scan the holes in the punch cards and instantly see the logic (and bugs...)
And now, well, what the h____ is an object?



Eric Pederson
http://www.songzilla.blogspot.com
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
domainNot="@something.com"
domainIs=domainNot.replace("s","z")
ePrefix="".join([chr(ord(x)+1) for x in "do"])
mailMeAt=ePrefix+domainIs
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Mon Aug  2 19:20:50 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 18:20:50 -0500
Subject: flowcharting is automatic for Python via preprocessor  
References: <mailman.1069.1091487166.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <LdCdnU1qE43NUZPcRVn-tA@comcast.com>

Small changes eliminate the need for flow
diagram (IMHO).

def f():
    """Demonstration of flow diagrams."""
    for i in range(100):
        r=i % 3
        if r == 2:
            print 'Remainder two, stopping loop'
            break

        if r == 1:
            if i < 10:  print 'Less than ten'
            else:       print 'Greater than ten'
            continue

        print 'Multiple of three'

While I realize your example function was just that
and example (because you could never even get to some
of the branches because it exits when i=5).  I see a
lot of code with nested if/elif constructs that are
unnecessary which add to the difficulty of
"deciphering" what is going on.

Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.


<barnesc at onid.orst.edu> wrote in message
news:mailman.1069.1091487166.5135.python-list at python.org...
>
> I like your idea.
>
> It is easy to get lost inside in eg a multiply nested if statement in a
couple
> multiply nested for loops, inside a try block.
>
> Sometimes one can split such code into separate functions, and this makes
the
> code cleaner.  Sometimes not.
>
> However, the real issue is how the eye parses code.
>
> It's really inefficient to scan a whole page of code line by line to
understand
> where loops, branches, continues, and breaks occur.
>
> I think your visual diagrams could help, if they are:
>
> 1. Semantically cleaner.
>    IMO, there is too much detail in the flow diagrams.
>    (See http://www.getcet.org/images/ex3.png).
>
>    A minimal amount of detail is easier to parse with the eye.
>
>    See http://oregonstate.edu/~barnesc/temp/flow.pdf for a cleaner
>    example I came up with.  This doesn't have arrows all over the
>    place (and hence may not be a flow diagram), but it does help
>    point out the relevant control structures.
>
> 2. Integrated into a code editor.
>
>    I could see this being a new code editor fad, like collapsable
>    functions and classes.
>
>    It could be quite useful, if the amount of visual information
>    is kept minimal, so that the coder is not distracted during
>    coding.
>
>    If the flow diagrams are not integrated into an editor, I don't
>    think many coders will use them.
>
> Perhaps editors already do this.
>
>  - Connelly




From robin at alldunn.com  Sat Aug 14 04:30:19 2004
From: robin at alldunn.com (Robin Dunn)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 01:30:19 -0700
Subject: ANN: wxPython 2.5.2.7
Message-ID: <411DCD9B.30108@alldunn.com>

Announcing
----------

I'm pleased to announce the 2.5.2.7 release of wxPython, now available
for download at http://wxpython.org/download.php or
https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=10718&package_id=10559&release_id=260444


What is wxPython?
-----------------

wxPython is a GUI toolkit for the Python programming language. It
allows Python programmers to create programs with a robust, highly
functional graphical user interface, simply and easily. It is
implemented as a Python extension module that wraps the popular
wxWidgets cross platform GUI library, which is written in C++.

wxPython is a cross-platform toolkit. This means that the same program
will usually run on multiple platforms without modifications.
Currently supported platforms are 32-bit Microsoft Windows, most Linux
or other Unix-like systems using GTK or GTK2, and Apple Macintosh OS
X.


Changes in 2.5.2.7
------------------

The changes in this version are too numerous to list here, please see
the following web sites for more details.  If you are upgrading from a
previous version then please do read the MigrationGuide fully before
getting started as there are some backwards incompatible changes.

      http://wxpython.org/recentchanges.php
      http://wxpython.org/migrationguide.php


New Docs
--------

Also available with this release is a sneak peak at the work in
progress for the new Python-specific reference documentation.  While
much of the content is not yet present, the docs are still usable, and
in fact helpful since they already accurately document what classes
and methods are present in wxPython and what the parameter names
are. You can download a tarball containing the new docs by following
the wxPythonNewDocs link on the download page, and it can also be
accessed online at http://wxPython.org/docs/api/.


-- 
Robin Dunn
Software Craftsman
http://wxPython.org  Java give you jitters?  Relax with wxPython!



From __peter__ at web.de  Sun Aug 15 05:58:41 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 11:58:41 +0200
Subject: Tkinter buttons with image ?
References: <mailman.1678.1092562235.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cfnc4h$vhe$05$1@news.t-online.com>

kowald at molgen.mpg.de wrote:

> I'm just getting into Tkinter and try to create a button that displays an
> image instead of text. I do something like:
> 
>>tmp = PhotoImage(file='start.gif')
>>buttonStart = Button(frameWb,image=tmp,command=root.quit)
> 
> The button now displays a blank (grey) area of the size of the image, but
> as I said, it is blank :-(.
> 
> Any idea what I'm doing wrong ?

Using the image in Tkinter will not keep it from being garbage-collected.
You need to keep a reference to the image, either in a global variable or
like so:

buttonStart = Button(frameWb, image=tmp, command=root.quit)
buttonStart.image = tmp

Peter



From mdrop1 at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 30 19:55:10 2004
From: mdrop1 at yahoo.com (Message Drop Box)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 16:55:10 -0700
Subject: The voodoo of zip(*someList)
References: <c60e7f28.0408300000.657118b1@posting.google.com>
	<tyfpt59nifa.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
Message-ID: <c60e7f28.0408301555.14573702@posting.google.com>

Thank you all very much. 

Jacek Generowicz <jacek.generowicz at cern.ch> wrote
> > I've never seen the star '*' outside of function/method definitions
> 
> It can also be used in function invocations, where it means pretty
> much the reverse of what it means in function definitions.
> 
> In a parameter list "*foo" means "collect remaining positional
> arguments into a sequence (tuple) called 'foo'". In an argument list,
> it means "take the sequence 'foo' and expand it into a set of
> positional arguments".
> 
> You can "reverse" the **kwds syntax in the same way too.
> 
> > and I've looked in the Python documentation without success.
> 
> Try page 39 of the Python Reference Manual.


From aranders at insightbb.com  Sat Aug  7 01:38:55 2004
From: aranders at insightbb.com (Alan Anderson)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 22:38:55 -0700
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>	<opsb9g3hjudgjose@mail.yahoo.it>
	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2-SdnZCwNs1SwI_cRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <53449fcb.0408062138.68a1c196@posting.google.com>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> Yes, of course after using them for a while they will become more 
> readable, but there are people who have learned to speak Klingon as
> well -- and that doesn't change the fact that Klingon is deliberately
> very difficult to learn and awkward.

Pardon me for jumping in, but I happen to be attending a conference on
the Klingon language at the moment and I wanted to correct a
misunderstanding.  Yes, Klingon is deliberately "alien", being
intentionally created to be unlike many natural languages in many
ways. But it's actually rather easy to learn, and it's only "awkward"
in a couple of minor ways (embedding comparatives in larger sentences,
for example) -- *every* language has its awkward spots.

Were Klingon a natural language, its regularity would be exceptional.

This is just an anectodal data point that might let you know that what
is difficult and awkward from your point of view could very well be
simple and straightforward for others who don't share your
preconceptions.

--
  Alan Anderson, professional programmer and amateur Klingonist
    proud member of the Klingon Language Institute since 1995
qo'mey poSmoH Hol -- language opens worlds -- http://www.kli.org/


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Aug  2 21:21:08 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 21:21:08 -0400
Subject: IronPython-0.6 is now available!
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>	<ce9cp3$g39$1@bagan.srce.hr><mailman.908.1091065191.5135.python-list@python.org><410963E4.2040106@v.loewis.de>
	<b83c9f9c.0408021440.2001d7ad@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cempa5$pno$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Ely Stob" <ely.stob at elvis.com> wrote in message
news:b83c9f9c.0408021440.2001d7ad at posting.google.com...
>I'm very much interested in why you insist that the CLR does not work
>well for Python, in the face of an apparently solid existence proof,
>in the form of IronPython, that that simply isn't the case.

Does IronPython currently run the whole test suite as well as CPython on
Windows?  (Has anyone even tried?)  I presume from the 0.6 designation that
it might not, in which case the existence proof would not yet be solid.

Has anyone independently verified J.H's timing claims?

Terry J. Reedy





From sakesun at boonthavorn.com  Wed Aug  4 22:52:07 2004
From: sakesun at boonthavorn.com (Sakesun Roykiattisak)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 09:52:07 +0700
Subject: Can decorator syntax do this ? (annotated results' names)
Message-ID: <4111A0D7.9080602@boonthavorn.com>


I have developed a framework to ease my database programming job, called 
"DescribedData Framework"
which use inspection on function/method parameter-name to simplify my code.
for example:

--------
connection = dbi.connect('database-connection-string')
cursor = connection.cursor()
cursor.execute('select TITLE, NAME, AGE from PEOPLE')

descdata = DescribedData(cursor.description, cursor.fetchall())

def show(TITLE, NAME, AGE): print '%s %s %s' % (TITLE, NAME, AGE)

# print all records
print 'Show all data'
descdata.perform(show)

# filter
def teenage(AGE): return AGE <= 19
fdata = FilteredData(teenage, descdata)
print 'Show teenages'
fdata.perform(show)

#sort
def compare_age(AGE1, AGE2): return cmp(AGE1, AGE2)
sdata = SortedData(compare_age, fdata)
print 'Show sorted teenages'
sdata.perform(show)
--------


FilteredData & SortedData are handy decorators for DescribedData
But when I implement more kind of decorators like "JoinedData",
parameter-name inspection is no longer sufficient,
function's *result-name* also have to be inspected.
Currently, I use class instead of function, like this:

--------
class ExtraNameJoiner(object):
  def join(self, NAME): return NAME.upper(), NAME.lower(), NAME.capitalize()
  def get_joining_description(self): return 'UPPER_NAME', 'LOWER_NAME', 
'CAPITALIZED_NAME'

joiner = ExtrasNameJoiner()
jdata = JoinedData(joiner, sdata)  # join extra fields
def show_extra(NAME, UPPER_NAME, LOWER_NAME, CAPITALIZED_NAME):
  print '%s %s %s %s' % (NAME, UPPER_NAME, LOWER_NAME, CAPITALIZED_NAME)
jdata.perform(show_extra)
--------


The question is: Can the upcomming decorator-syntax be applied in this 
situation ?

Can I do something like this :

--------
@resultnames('UPPER_NAME', 'LOWER_NAME', 'CAPITALIZED_NAME')
def join_extra_name(NAME):
    return NAME.upper(), NAME.lower(), NAME.capitalize()

jdata = JoinedData(join_extra_name, sdata)
--------


I stopped follow decorator-syntax discussion for a while, because it 
seems everlasting.
But now look like it's settle, so I wonder how far can I go with this 
new feature ?



From richardlee2061 at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 15 23:23:54 2004
From: richardlee2061 at yahoo.com (Steve Perry)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 20:23:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: reconstruct list and dictionary  from file
Message-ID: <20040816032354.55843.qmail@web53708.mail.yahoo.com>

I have a serialized list and dictionary stored in a file, with the
following format:

mydata:
   color ["red" "green" "blue"]
   origin [0.0 13.2 9.2]
   datasource1 {server:"server1.domain" username:"client"
password:"secret"}

Is there any APIs to reconstruct the mydata object back with the list
and dictionary recreated in it?

Thanks,

Steve


		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 


From python at rcn.com  Sat Aug 28 05:09:04 2004
From: python at rcn.com (Raymond Hettinger)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 02:09:04 -0700
Subject: Pure Python version of collections.deque()
Message-ID: <5d83790c.0408280109.4e4bb672@posting.google.com>

FWIW, I've posted a recipe for a pure python version of Py2.4's
collections.deque().  It is a drop-in replacement and should work with
Py2.0 and later:

   http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/259179


Raymond Hettinger


From cjw at sympatico.ca  Sat Aug 21 08:39:39 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 08:39:39 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2016.1092991343.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>	<7x3c2iw9ig.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<mailman.2016.1092991343.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <coHVc.38439$Tr.1930638@news20.bellglobal.com>



Anthony Baxter wrote:

> On 20 Aug 2004 00:31:35 -0700, Paul Rubin
> <"http://phr.cx"@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> 
>>My conclusion: Python 2.4 should not have new decorator syntax.  Stay
>>with the existing stuff, for now.
> 
> 
> This is not an option that is going to happen. The decorators thread
> has been discussed on python-dev for 2 1/2 years. The case for including
> them has been decided. The original decorators (classmethod, staticmethod)
> were introduced in Python 2.2, released late 2001. How long do you think
> we should wait?
> 
Another six months won't make much difference.  The transform 
functionality is there now.  PEP 318 formalizes things.

Colin W.
> 
>>Discussion and exploration should continue and the question should be
>>revisited for 2.5.  For 2.4, extend the current kludgy (decorators
>>separated from the function) mechanism if needed to provide necessary
>>functionality, but deprecate any new such feature as soon as it's
>>introduced, with the explanation that it's exploratory.
> 
> 
> This is not the way Python works. "experimental" stuff doesn't stay experimental
> once the first beta release is out. I see no reason to change this -
> it increases
> the costs dramatically for companies who are using Python if they have to
> rewrite their code every second release.



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sun Aug  8 04:27:33 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 18:27:33 +1000
Subject: Proposed improved decorator syntax
In-Reply-To: <HBF.200408083w3@bombur.uio.no>
References: <mailman.1235.1091753699.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Xns953D1C498DEE3ukcoREMOVEfreenetrtw@130.133.1.4>
	<HBF.200408083w3@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040808012753849f35@mail.gmail.com>

On 08 Aug 2004 02:51:12 +0200, Hallvard B Furuseth
<h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no> wrote:
> barnesc wrote:
> > class foo:
> >     def introduceNewFeature(self, someArgument, anotherArgument):
> >         .decorate = [synchronized]
> >         .accepts  = (int, int)
> >         .author   = 'Chris King'
> >         pass # whatever
> 
> I like it better than the current syntax, but I'm troubled by stuff
> after the ':' which is executed before the function.
> It _looks_ like it is executed inside the function.

This was Guido's reason for rejecting all forms that put the decorator 
syntax inside the function block. They're _not_ part of the function's
code.


From bryanjugglercryptographer at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  4 17:05:17 2004
From: bryanjugglercryptographer at yahoo.com (Bryan Olson)
Date: 4 Aug 2004 14:05:17 -0700
Subject: Timing Difference: insert vs. append & reverse
References: <35b736b9.0408020330.53b24ed3@posting.google.com>
	<Xns953983065EEC6duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
	<1a517b5.0408031027.60554dfb@posting.google.com>
	<Xns953B4F5373D3Bduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <1a517b5.0408041305.3927a6c8@posting.google.com>

Duncan Booth wrote:
> Bryan Olson:
[Duncan Booth had written:]
> >> If you expected insert to be faster, perhaps you thought that Python
> >> used a linked-list implementation. It doesn't do this, because in
> >> practice (for most applications) a [array] based implementation gives
> >> better performance. 
> > 
> > True, but an array implementation can easily support amortized 
> > constant-time insert/delete at *either* end (without breaking 
> > constant-time indexing).  The same trick of keeping extra space 
> > at the tail end can work at the head; it requires keeping one 
> > additional offset to show where the occupied cells start.
> 
> If the OP had said he expected insert and append to be the same speed I 
> might buy that but [...]

Hmmm ... let me clarify what I'm selling:  We can make lists 
perform efficiently as double-ended queues without breaking 
anything or perceptibly hurting anyone's efficiency.  Until this 
thread, I hadn't realized that Python's lists are much slower 
than Perl's in important cases:

  http://perlmonks.thepen.com/17890.html


Would this be a PEP-size change, or just a small fix?


-- 
--Bryan


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 17:28:19 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 23:28:19 +0200
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<1LMXc.67190$UTP.37420@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
Message-ID: <1gj7a9r.g7ec5a1g89rj0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Dan Perl <dperl at rogers.com> wrote:
   ...
> Alright, alright!  And given the fact that it was added only in 2.3, that
> explains why I couldn't find any mention of the feature in 'Python
> Cookbook', the 1st ed.  I'm looking forward to seeing it mentioned in the
> 2nd ed. ;-)

If somebody submits a good recipe about it, I'll be overjoyed to add it
(not sure what chapter -- 'files'?  'system administration'?  'programs
about programs'? -- ah well, I'll find a spot!-).

In the 2nd Edition of the _Nutshell_, when THAT comes (don't hold your
breath!-), I'll write it up just like I will for all the new delights
since 2.2 -- but for the Cookbook I'm supposed to use recipes that
people do submit to the online cookbook site... OK, I and my co-editors
_do_ perform a lot of editing and merging, and occasionally do add a
recipe or three, but mostly it IS the book you all have written, with
over a hundred authors covering the subjects THEY think matter...


Alex


From sholden at holdenweb.com  Mon Aug 30 08:29:51 2004
From: sholden at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 08:29:51 -0400
Subject: Announcing PyCs, a new Python-like language on .Net
In-Reply-To: <99dce321.0408292132.36ef381e@posting.google.com>
References: <mailman.2572.1093751093.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<99dce321.0408292132.36ef381e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <l7FYc.50661$4o.11361@fed1read01>

David M. Wilson wrote:

> Mark Hahn <mark at prothon.org> wrote in message news:<mailman.2572.1093751093.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> 
> 
>>Please join the PyCs team.  The only effort involved is particpating in a
>>low-traffic, high-content, mailing list.  You will be able to influence the
>>design of the latest and greatest dynamic language. 
> 
> 
> Hi there. What are you trying to achieve? You have yet to complete
> Prothon or even stabilise it for long enough to let me get a good
> overview of it. Might I suggest you take a step back and actually
> think about what you are doing rather than just implementing whatever
> happens to be considered cool today.
> 
Hear, hear.

> Also judging by what I've seen of Prothon and read here, neither of
> your proposed languages are either Python-like or related to this
> group.
> 
Well, I guess you have to try and garner support wherever you can.

> Might I suggest you sit down with a paper and a pen and work out what
> problem you are actually trying to solve, it is starting to get rather
> embarrassing to watch the antics here. At the very least could you
> spell check your postings before sending them.
> 
Yup. One could take an announcement like this from someone like, say. 
Jim Hugunin, who has a solid history of development of complete, working 
systems. The suggestion that this effort might lead to something that 
was "better" that Iron Python is ridiculous given that Prothon appears 
to be merely "sound and fury, signifying nothing".

> There are also much better forums to discuss language development on
> than comp.lang.python. Sorry for the flame, but you really need it.
> 

It could have been a much worse flame and still justified. Mark should 
gratefully take your advice.

regards
  Steve



From ngps at netmemetic.com  Sat Aug  7 11:50:51 2004
From: ngps at netmemetic.com (Ng Pheng Siong)
Date: 7 Aug 2004 15:50:51 GMT
Subject: Paul Graham on Python hackers
References: <cf1p1f$ke0@odak26.prod.google.com>
	<87k6wb4fwq.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>
Message-ID: <cf2tor$gqm$1@mawar.singnet.com.sg>

According to  <510046470588-0001 at t-online.de>:
> whereas in that crap of Java, it's already hard to write a program
> that does nothing. 

IIRC there was a stupid language shootout where the Java compiler noticed
the benchmark's main loop was a no-op and optimised it away, producing a
program that did nothing. So you do have the compiler to help you there.
;-)


-- 
Ng Pheng Siong <ngps at netmemetic.com> 

http://firewall.rulemaker.net -+- Cisco PIX & Netscreen Config Version Control 
http://sandbox.rulemaker.net/ngps -+- M2Crypto, ZServerSSL for Zope, Blog


From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Tue Aug 10 16:57:46 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:57:46 -0700
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
	<cf8trp$lnp$1@nic.grnet.gr>
	<a22gh0dsb94ffqqjqhb3igufi65ap7pg4d@4ax.com>
	<pkulu1-74f.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<4eghh0hlotu5thcc2bar0mn8l4nkog8nin@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <cfpnu1-2ad.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

Fred wrote:
> Thx, the slides are very educational :-) And if I Python provides a
> high-quality grid object or makes it a snap to work with the
> ComponentOne ActiveX we currently use, I'll be happy as a pig ... er
> .. a snake in mud.

wxPython does have a grid object that is pretty good.  On Windows
wxPython also has activeX integration.

I would recommend you download and install wxPython.  One of the
items it installs is a demo that shows using every single widget
and the code for doing it.  That gives you a good idea of what
it all looks like and how you do the coding.

Roger 




From ere.lists at killozapHALLO.com.invalid  Mon Aug 30 14:07:37 2004
From: ere.lists at killozapHALLO.com.invalid (Erling Ringen Elvsrud)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 18:07:37 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Urllib2, problems with a webserver
Message-ID: <slrncj6qpa.e6e.ere.lists@stap.elvsrud.org>

Hello, 


My aim is to write a small application to use free sms-sending services
in a more convenient way than with a web-browser. I found: 
http://wwwsearch.sourceforge.net/mechanize/ (which resemples the perl
variant). With mechanize I should manage to interact with the website
through python, like supplying usernames, filling the message form, etc. 
All well so far, I have installed it and tested it locally, 
seems to work well. 
But this piece of code: 
-------------------------------------
from mechanize import Browser

b = Browser()
b.open("http://freesms.no:88/")
assert b.viewing_html()

print b.geturl()
print b.title()
-------------------------------------

Give me this error: 

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "./sms_sender.py", line 11, in ?
    b.open("http://freesms.no:88/")
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/mechanize/_mechanize.py", 
   line 106, in open
    def open(self, url, data=None): return self._open(url, data)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/mechanize/_mechanize.py", 
   line 133, in _open
    self._parse_html(self.response)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/mechanize/_mechanize.py", 
  line 464, in _parse_html
    for token in p.tags(*(self.urltags.keys()+["base"])):
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/pullparser.py", line 90, in 
   iter_until_exception
    yield fn(*args, **kwds)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/pullparser.py", line 194, 
   in get_tag
    tok = self.get_token()
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/pullparser.py", line 177, 
   in get_token
    self.feed(data)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/HTMLParser.py", line 108, in feed
    self.goahead(0)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/HTMLParser.py", line 148, in goahead
    k = self.parse_starttag(i)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/HTMLParser.py", line 239, in parse_starttag
    endpos = self.check_for_whole_start_tag(i)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/HTMLParser.py", line 314, 
  in check_for_whole_start_tag
    self.error("malformed start tag")
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/HTMLParser.py", line 115, in error
    raise HTMLParseError(message, self.getpos())
HTMLParser.HTMLParseError: malformed start tag, at line 2, column 1365
--------------------------------------

By commenting out line 314 of HTMLParser.py and adding "return" 
I manage to continue. And everything seems to work (albeit not tested
much). This is ofcourse not an acceptable solution... 

How come I get this error? 

Can the server software be a issue?
According to netcraft the server runs Microsoft-IIS/5.0


Thanks, 

   Erling 






From tuure at laurinolli.net  Sun Aug 29 18:17:58 2004
From: tuure at laurinolli.net (Tuure Laurinolli)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 01:17:58 +0300
Subject: possible python bug here
In-Reply-To: <UlmYc.210493$5D1.9792439@news4.tin.it>
References: <UlmYc.210493$5D1.9792439@news4.tin.it>
Message-ID: <cgtka7$s7r$1@plaza.suomi.net>

manuel wrote:

> In the sample below, the foo function modify the b list,
> but I think it should modify only c, not b! It work
> correctly if if b is one dimension list instead two.
> 
> def foo(aList):
>     print "use foo..."
>     aList[2][0] += .35
>     aList[2][1] += .35
>     aList[2][2] += .35
> 
> p = [2.5,2.5,2.5]
Here you bind the name p to a list.
> b = [p,p,p,p]
Here you bind the name b to a list, which has four references to list p
> 
> c=b[:] #c is a totally new list cloned from b, it's not an alias!
Here you bind the name c to a list, which has four copies of the 
references to list p
> 
> print "b = ",b[2]
Here you print the third reference to p of list b
> 
> foo(c) #The argument is c, not b! Why b is modified too?
Here you modify the third reference to p of list c
> 
> print "b = ", b[2]# after foo(c), the list b now is different!
Here you print the third reference to p of list b, it's still just 
reference to list (originally bound to) p.

Note that also the other references to the changed list (b[0:4], c[0:4], 
p) refer to the same changed list.


From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Mon Aug 23 03:37:38 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 03:37:38 -0400
Subject: Has anyone implemented BASIC in Python?
In-Reply-To: <9h0ji0lvc0be65nuvcugaa3vsq5mcl3ck8@4ax.com>
References: <2oo13eFcj548U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<o6eii0h19pljd16shbfld7jdj7l2m7tc9m@4ax.com>
	<2ot30hFeek8nU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<9h0ji0lvc0be65nuvcugaa3vsq5mcl3ck8@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <2otkvkFe7p8oU1@uni-berlin.de>

Andrea Griffini wrote:
> Writing an interpreter that executes directly a parse tree of
> a structured language program is IMO *easier* than writing an
> interpreter for an unstructured language program.
> That's why I think that starting from BASIC is not a good idea.

I see what you're saying now. I had entirely forgotten about GOSUB and 
FOR (I haven't used BASIC for a very long time, thank God), so I was 
thinking thinking about stackless code with IF and GOTO for flow control.

Thanks a lot for the detailed replies, by the way; they've been very 
helpful.

> Writing parsers, interpreters and compilers is a lot simpler than
> many do think.

Is there a (virtual) book you would recommend reading to learn about 
writing them? A course isn't really possibly for me, so I'm hoping that 
isn't the only option.


From maney at pobox.com  Wed Aug 18 11:05:57 2004
From: maney at pobox.com (Martin Maney)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:05:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Calling __init__ for all mixins
Message-ID: <cfvr8l$56q$1@wheel2.two14.net>


I've been to the cookbook (both forms, since they're sometimes usefully
different), but that gave rise to more questions than answers.  Heck,
let me pull some of them up while I'm at it.

Martelli gives the recipie (5.3 on paper) "Calling a Superclass
__init__ Method if it Exists" where he seems to say that this:

class NewStyleOnly(A, B, C):
	def __init__(self):
		super(NewStyleOnly, self).__init__()

is the New Class Speak equivalent of

class Classic(A, B, C):
	def __init__(self):
		for base in self.__class__.__bases__:
			if hasattr(base, '__init__'):
				base.__init__(self)

but when I tried a simple test case (base classes just print a tracer
when called), Martelli's NewStyleOnly only invoked A.__init__, as it
was the first base class in the base list as written with an __init__
implemented.  These seem to me to be very different.

In the completely different category of things that make you scratch
your head, online recipie 146462 suggests code that seems to be a
candidate for best gratuitous use of 'continue'.  Or is there some
subtle reason to prefer

for x in something:
	if somecondition:
		do_one_thing()
	else:
		continue
	do_the_other_thing()

rather than the simpler and clearer

for x in something:
        if somecondition:
                do_one_thing()
                do_the_other_thing()

or maybe even push the condition up into a comprehension in the for
statement.  Yeah, it sometimes makes for long lines, but it also makes
it perfectly clear that you aren't doing *anything* with the filtered
elements.  One thing I always thought C got stunningly right was its
for construct.  How better to summarize a loop than to give its initial
conditions, loop invariant test, and fixup for next code all together
inone place?  Well, given that you don't have lists and manage to make
the vast majority of loops be simple iterations over lists...  :-)

Yes, in retrospect maybe it would have been easier to have signed up
for ASPN and pointed this out in a comment, but I prefer not to
contribute to speedbumped sites like that both on principle, and as an
expression of essential laziness, and because there's a better audience
here anyway.  Wait, that's three reasons...


So the reason I was turning over these stones was that I'm working on a
subsystem where I want to compose working classes using multiple mixin
base classes to provide different implementations for separate parts of
the interface.  So far this is working quite nicely (1), but the
business of calling all the mixins' __init__ functions is a bit of a
nuisance.  Unfortunately, the solutions I've found (aside from
Martelli's NewStyleOnly which I'm sure was only accidentally implied to
be a solution to this problem) all seem little is any better than the
simple and obvious method of explicitly invoking each one.  I'm not
certain that I won't need to use that manual approach in the end, since
the current draft has a couple of arguments to one mixin, and it's not
clear I can eliminate them, but I would still be interested in any
suggestions for nicer solutions to the MI __init__ problem.


(1) the one nasty bit where a third mixin seems to want to provide a
few elements of what are otherwise two different mixin categories can
probably be subdued, if only by introducing the type of indirection
sometimes called "Strategy", though it's been a standard trick since
decades before design patterns were ever heard of.

-- 
Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea,
never regains its original dimensions.  -- Oliver Wendell Holmes


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Mon Aug  9 16:48:18 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 16:48:18 -0400
Subject: generating uuids / guids
References: <2nhnrfF13jq0U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <cf8nui$1uo$1@panix1.panix.com>

In article <2nhnrfF13jq0U1 at uni-berlin.de>,
Jon Perez  <jbperez808 at wahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Is there a Python function that works on all platforms (not just Win32)
>to generate such in the DCE / Microsoft format?
>
>If not present, this looks like it would be a very Pythonic addition
>to the standard library.

Sure it would.  Best way to start is to create a stand-alone third-party
library that implements the full DCE spec.  Once it has proven its
utility and stability, send a note to python-dev suggesting that it be
added.

Keep in mind that UUID generation is a somewhat complex and tricky
business will likely require some kind of C library support (to get the
MAC address, to check if there's already a system-level UUID/GUID
generator present, to provide a "good" UUID if there's no network card,
and so on).
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From miki.tebeka at zoran.com  Mon Aug 30 17:28:49 2004
From: miki.tebeka at zoran.com (Miki Tebeka)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:28:49 +0200
Subject: os.walk: Get entire path
In-Reply-To: <cgssom$hu6$00$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <cgssom$hu6$00$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <20040830212849.GI680@zoran.com>

Hello Florian,

> when I'm walking through a file system hierarchy using os.walk, how can I
> get the full path of a file or dir? normpath and abspath don't work.
from os.path import join, abspath
from os import walk

for root, dirs, files in walk("somedir"):
    for file in files:
        print abspath(join(root, file))

HTH.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Miki Tebeka <miki.tebeka at zoran.com>
http://tebeka.spymac.net
The only difference between children and adults is the price of the toys


From stuffduff at cox.net  Thu Aug 12 14:27:32 2004
From: stuffduff at cox.net (Sean)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 11:27:32 -0700
Subject: ZServerSSL and Certificates
References: <3222fe00.0408050548.43b5f0fd@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <3222fe00.0408121027.5d701b2b@posting.google.com>

stuffduff at cox.net (Sean) wrote in message news:<3222fe00.0408050548.43b5f0fd at posting.google.com>...
Thanks to all of those who helped!  We've applied for our cert.

I still have a lot of learning to do, but here's the summary:

1) Generate a new request/key pair

# CA.pl -newreq

2) send newreq.pem to the website

3) get the server cert & save as server.pem

4) get the rsa private key

# openssl rsa < newreq.pem > newkey.pem

5) append newkey.pem to server.pem

6) get the ca cert and save as ca.pem

7) copy ca.pem and server.pem to the ssl directory.

So far so good!


From mordor at fly.srk.fer.hr  Thu Aug  5 03:02:28 2004
From: mordor at fly.srk.fer.hr (Zeljko Vrba)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 07:02:28 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: DB beginner help
Message-ID: <slrnch3ms4.7mn.mordor@fly.srk.fer.hr>

1. Is there any HOW-TO documentation about DB API except PEP 249?

2. How are you supposed to write DB-driver independent code when each
   driver has its own, possibly different from any other, paramstyle
   ('qmark', 'numeric', etc..)?

In Perl I always use question marks and have no trouble switching the
application between different databases. How do you guys do it in Python
(of course, without rewriting all queries?)




From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Aug 12 15:46:17 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 21:46:17 +0200
Subject: zero new keyword decorator
References: <mailman.1569.1092334055.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cfghe9$enn$00$1@news.t-online.com>

Roman Suzi wrote:

> After a week of reading decorator discussion my mind slowly
> turnes in the opposite direction: to find which syntaxes are absolutely
> unwanted.

Learn from Bengt Richter to keep a straight face while proposing something
really odd.
On the other hand - Guido could use his time machine to make these the
syntax suggestions that were avoided by the pie.
Speaking of which - why would he volunteer to take this pie straight into
Python's face. We need another Dan Sugalski.

Peter


-- 
Then again, it's 5am in Finland and I'm still moderately drunk.
-- Ville Vainio


From __peter__ at web.de  Sun Aug 29 03:47:49 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:47:49 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no>
	<ceu67e$ioa$00$1@news.t-online.com>
	<HBF.20040805npas@bombur.uio.no>
	<cev7rn$me7$01$1@news.t-online.com>
	<HBF.20040806aoi5@bombur.uio.no>
	<cf7rhs$kqh$04$1@news.t-online.com>
	<HBF.20040822l1c0@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <cgs1n6$hj$01$1@news.t-online.com>

Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:

> If you disagree with that, is that because you think of Unicode as The
> One True Character Set which everything can assume is in use if not
> otherwise specified?  That's a long way from the world I'm living in.

It's even worse. I think conceptually there is "One True Character Set" of
which unicode is the closest approximation -- yes, I know that this
position is "idealism" by its philosophical definition.

> And the thing about standards is that there are so many of them to
> choose from.  Enforcing a standard somewhere in an environment where
> that is not the standard is not useful.  Try the standard of driving on
> the right side of the road in a country where everyone else drives on
> the left side.  Standards are supposed to serve us, it's not we who are
> supposed to server standards.

If you go to GB from the continent it is clear that you have to switch
lanes. You can still get it wrong but either completely or not at all.

Now consider a road you can drive on in many directions, say 100, with two
or three directions allowed simultaneously in one country. The best
available method to find out the correct direction would be to drive a few
kilometers and then get out of the car and look for damages in the car's
body. If there are dents you had an accident, so either you or another car
took the wrong lane...
How is it that many drive faithfully then? The dominant car-make has a
preference built-in. When they drive on the internet, everyone ignores the
signs and just drives on the same lane as anybody else... 

By the way, I'm not "fond" of unicode, There may even be problems that
cannot be solved in principle by a universal standard (like your sorting
across three locales). I just think unicode would make a better default
than what we have now and many apps that will break in the transition are
broken now - you just didn't realize it.

Peter




From npat at efault.net  Fri Aug 13 16:19:26 2004
From: npat at efault.net (Nick Patavalis)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 20:19:26 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<2o4divF6one2U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<slrnchq2br.am7.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<mailman.1628.1092425051.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnchq8ie.am7.npat@gray.efault.net>

On 2004-08-13, kosh <kosh at aesaeion.com> wrote:
>
> Why is there a need for a stand alone executable? At least on all the unixes 
> whether something is executable is just determined by the executable bit on 
> the file. I can execute a python program just as transparently as one in 
> compiled c, c++,  etc. I really don't see the point of that.
>

Perhaps you target system has no Python environment installed. And
perhaps it has no resources to have a complete python environment
installed (appart from the fact that it might not need one). Don't
think of your 2GHz / 512MB desktop. Think of your cell-phone.


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 10 17:23:53 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:23:53 -0400
Subject: remaining decorator syntax options
In-Reply-To: <opsci983tbyendvp@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
References: <d11dcfba.0408101133.4943f06b@posting.google.com>
	<opsci983tbyendvp@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
Message-ID: <g_KdnU8Sofd2oYTcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>

Grzegorz Dostatni wrote:
> 
> At the end of the day, I would look for precedents:
> 
> Python:        c/c++        Ruby
> and            &        and
> or            |        or
> self.foo                @foo
> global                $foo
> 
> I am aware of the symbols python uses (#, %, **, &, |). With the 
> exception of #, I generally find a way to avoid them.

Corrections to the above:

C/C++ use && and || for "and" and "or".  The single-char versions are
operators used in mathematical expressions, and used identically
in Python (and Ruby? or does it use words for both?).

As for the "symbols" of Python: % ** & and | are all math
operators, so they don't really apply here in the same way
as other things do.  Avoiding them would be senseless, given
that when you need them, you need them, in the same way you
wouldn't go around trying to avoid + or / either.

# to introduce a comment is clearly in line with other languages
that use symbols instead of words ("rem" from BASIC?  Ugh...) but
it is also a _very_ widely used convention at this point, and
comes directly from Python's ancestry in system admin stuff.

In the end, though, a new keyword would pretty much rock for this
whole mess, especially if it were to immediate follow the function
def's colon, and have it's own colon with an indented block following.

-Peter


From insert at spam.here  Tue Aug 24 21:35:20 2004
From: insert at spam.here (Doug Holton)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:35:20 -0500
Subject: J2 0-2-6 is available
In-Reply-To: <RIRWc.6401$D7.5685@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E52@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
	<mailman.2310.1093386985.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<RIRWc.6401$D7.5685@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <XoednXx_JtNAcbbcRVn-pw@comcast.com>

Neil Hodgson wrote:

>    I'd like to dissent on "using". To me, this code does not read well.
> 
> using:
>     classmethod
> def foo(cls):
>     pass
 >
>    foo *is* a class method, it is not *using* a class method. In C#, "using"
> has too meanings: the first is to import a library and the second is to
> acquire a resource which will be automatically released. Both of these are
> seem reasonable as some thing (the object of the using clause) is being
> used.

It also will confuse people when we ever hit python 3 (see 
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/Python3_2e0).
We'll have a "with" (or similar keyword) that will work like this:

with self:
     .property1 = True
     .init()

"with" and "using" are way too similar, although they would be doing 
*completely* different things.  This would also rule out other proposed 
generic keywords like: by, having, per, via, extend (extend means 
subclassing in most other languages)...
but would leave as still suitable keywords like: meta, decorate, or 
predef (although predef is as meaningless to a python beginner as "def" is).


From apardon at forel.vub.ac.be  Tue Aug 17 08:05:14 2004
From: apardon at forel.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 12:05:14 GMT
Subject: Piping stdout to Python callable
References: <bYbUc.24077$nx2.16696@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <slrnci3t3q.k5.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>

Op 2004-08-17, Edward Diener schreef <eldiener at earthlink.net>:
> From within a function in my own module I need to take the output from a
> Python module "A", which is sending data to stdout and which can not be
> changed and which I need to invoke as a top-level module, and pipe it into
> another function in my own module so that I can read it from stdin. Is there
> an easy way to do this ? The only way I can presently think to do this is
> through "system python A.py | python MyOwnModule.py", which seems a bit
> laborious having to invoke python.exe itself twice. Any other solution would
> be most welcome.

What do you mean when you say you need to invoke it as a top-level
module?  Do you mean you can't import it at all or that importing it will
startup the process of generating output immediatly?

What bothers you with twice invoking the interpreter? In these days
a program that is invoked multiples times will generally be only
loaded once in memory.

Are threads an acceptable alternative? Does your MyOwnModule.py needs
to write to stdout?

-- 
Antoon Pardon


From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Aug 19 04:46:20 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:46:20 +0200
Subject: inverse of izip
References: <d11dcfba.0408182144.14aad4a8@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1934.1092900690.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cg1pct$p58$00$1@news.t-online.com>

Steven Bethard wrote:

> Steven Bethard <steven.bethard <at> gmail.com> writes:
>> What's the inverse of izip?  Of course, I could use zip(*) or izip(*),
>> e.g.:
>> 
>> >>> zip(*itertools.izip(range(10), range(10)))
>> [(0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9), (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)]
>> >>> x, y = itertools.izip(*itertools.izip(range(10), range(10)))
>> >>> x, y
>> ((0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9), (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9))
>> 
>> But then I get a pair of tuples, not a pair of iterators.  Basically,
>> I want to convert an iterator of tuples into a tuple of iterators.
> 
> Sorry to respond to myself, but after playing around with itertools for a
> while, this seems to work:
> 
>>>> import itertools
>>>> starzip = lambda iterables: ((tuple[i] for tuple in itr) for i, itr in
> enumerate(itertools.tee(iterables)))
>>>> starzip(itertools.izip(range(10), range(10)))
> <generator object at 0x008DED28>
>>>> x, y = starzip(itertools.izip(range(10), range(10)))
>>>> x
> <generator object at 0x008E1058>
>>>> y
> <generator object at 0x008E1080>
>>>> list(x)
> [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9]
>>>> list(y)
> [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9]
> 
> Seems like a bit of work for the inverse of izip though so I'll wait to
> see if
> anyone else has a better solution.  (Not to mention, it wouldn't be a
> single line solution if I wasn't using 2.4...)

Because Python supports function definitions you only have to do it once :-)

However, your sample data is badly chosen. Unless I have made a typo
repeating your demo, you are getting the same (last) sequence twice due to
late binding of i.

>>> import itertools as it
>>> def starzip(iterables):
...     return ((t[i] for t in itr) for (i, itr) in
enumerate(it.tee(iterables)))
...
>>> map(list, starzip(it.izip("123", "abc")))
[['1', '2', '3'], ['a', 'b', 'c']]
>>> x, y = starzip(it.izip("123", "abc"))
>>> list(x)
['a', 'b', 'c']
>>> list(y)
['a', 'b', 'c']
>>>

Here's my fix.

# requires Python 2.4
def cut(itr, index):
    # avoid late binding of index 
    return (item[index] for item in itr)

def starzip(tuples):
    a, b = it.tee(tuples)
    try:
        tuple_len = len(a.next())
    except StopIteration:
        raise ValueError(
            "starzip() does not allow an empty sequence as argument")
    t = it.tee(b, tuple_len)
    return (cut(itr, index) for (index, itr) in enumerate(t))

a, b, c = starzip(it.izip("abc", [1,2,3], "xyz"))
print a, b, c
assert list(a) == list("abc")
assert list(b) == [1, 2, 3]
assert list(c) == list("xyz")

Peter



From sjdevnull at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  9 22:25:02 2004
From: sjdevnull at yahoo.com (G. S. Hayes)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 19:25:02 -0700
Subject: Parsing broken HTML via Mozilla
References: <mailman.1413.1092080863.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <96c2e938.0408091825.19a04dd@posting.google.com>

Walter Do:rwald <walter at livinglogic.de> wrote in message news:<mailman.1413.1092080863.5135.python-list at python.org>...

> Hello all!



Hi!

> 

> I'm trying to parse broken HTML with several Python tools.

> Unfortunately none of them work 100% reliable.



What have you tried?



I've been using Tidy with pretty good results; there's a Python
wrapper called utidylib available at http://utidylib.berlios.de



Make sure to use the "force output" option and it'll do a reasonable
job of parsing fairly broken HTML and outputting either as plain HTML,
XHTML, or several other formats (with lots of tweaky knobs available
to tune the output if you want to).


From jerf at jerf.org  Sun Aug 29 01:54:55 2004
From: jerf at jerf.org (Jeremy Bowers)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 05:54:55 GMT
Subject: regex into str
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408290203530.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<mailman.2571.1093744862.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408290406250.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.29.01.54.57.901288@jerf.org>

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 04:08:57 +0200, Peter Kleiweg wrote:
> This works:
> 
>     a += 'x'

In the sense you mean, no it doesn't.

Python 2.3.4 (#1, Jun  8 2004, 17:41:43) 
[GCC 3.3.3 20040217 (Gentoo Linux 3.3.3, propolice-3.3-7)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> a = 'a'
>>> a
'a'
>>> id(a)
1074037376
>>> a += 'b'
>>> a
'ab'
>>> id(a)
1074272448

Note the two different id numbers. 'a' and 'ab' are not the same string.
 
> Is there a way to tell Python that '' should be something else
> than str?

No.


From eppstein at ics.uci.edu  Thu Aug 12 17:29:07 2004
From: eppstein at ics.uci.edu (David Eppstein)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:29:07 -0700
Subject: PEP318
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<20040812090056.00001e31@titan>
	<7ttmh0t8c3cogtbhhnp1ohqu8b51pda461@4ax.com>
	<eppstein-09AC84.10350212082004@news.service.uci.edu>
	<f3inh0d3l3uikpd3t914kv05a2fnkvhqvq@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <eppstein-C5D7B8.14290712082004@news.service.uci.edu>

In article <f3inh0d3l3uikpd3t914kv05a2fnkvhqvq at 4ax.com>,
 Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:

> >Also, it's not in the Zen of Python, but maybe declarative is better 
> >than imperative?
> 
> Starting now, I guess. ;)

Well, I think starting with list comprehensions in place of imperative 
append-loops.

-- 
David Eppstein
Computer Science Dept., Univ. of California, Irvine
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/


From paul at boddie.org.uk  Mon Aug 23 10:37:07 2004
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 07:37:07 -0700
Subject: My only complaint about Python
References: <mailman.2188.1093250649.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <5339b60d.0408230637.795a0b56@posting.google.com>

"Ben Last" <ben at benlast.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.2188.1093250649.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> 

[...]

First of all, I apologise if I caused unnecessary offence. However, I
don't quite see what relevance my brother has in this discussion.

> I'm entirely content for Richard Stallman to continue his campaign, and also
> entirely relaxed about Microsoft continuing theirs.

Although you didn't explicitly equate the FSF agenda to the Microsoft
agenda according to any particular criteria, I was merely pointing out
that there is a big difference between them in nature, and that the
Microsoft agenda has significant consequences not only in the
ideological realm but also in ways which are generally regarded as
being both serious and negative, have typically involved regulatory
authorities and assorted legal proceedings, and are clearly concrete
in the sense that paid-for speculation about the supposed negative
effects of the GPL clearly are not.

Now I know that I'm probably not even reading between the lines of
your message here, so feel free to disregard this paragraph, but I
think that there are various things that are still worth saying. It
seems to be the big thing in various circles these days to pounce on
people defending the FSF and declare them extremists or impractical
ideologues - a perusal of any of the major news sites related to Linux
or related technologies will yield numerous comments and contributions
of that nature, and comp.lang.python hasn't exactly been spared this
particular meme. Yet the FSF (including Mr Stallman) has not only
significantly helped the Free Software (and open source) community get
where it is today - it also provides a coherent framework for the
management of software ownership and an ethical mechanism for
licensing that software. Although this might seem uncool and an
unnecessary distraction to those who are just grabbing "the good stuff
for free", I think it should be the duty of software professionals to
at least consider the various implications brought about by the
software they choose to use and deploy.

And is it good enough that your compiler or some hypothetical version
of Python is a free binary made available at the discretion of your
current favourite software company or even a restrictively-licensed
source code edition from an enthusiastic researcher? Perhaps it is for
now, but in the former case that company had better be generous in the
long term (and not interested in moving in on your business), and in
the latter case that researcher had better remain enthusiastic for
years beyond the end of that research project of theirs.

Paul


From b.niemann at betternet.de  Mon Aug 30 07:55:18 2004
From: b.niemann at betternet.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:55:18 +0200
Subject: From python to LaTeX in emacs on windows
In-Reply-To: <u4qmkzwss.fsf@rk-speed-rugby.dk>
References: <u4qmkzwss.fsf@rk-speed-rugby.dk>
Message-ID: <cgv4cs$21e$1@online.de>

Brian Elmegaard wrote:
> Hi group
> 
> I hope this is not a faq...
> 
> I try to understand how to use the new way of specifying a files
> encoding, but no matter what I do I get strange characters in the
> output. 
> 
> I have a text file which I have generated in python by parsing some
> html.
> 
> In the file there is international characters like ? and ?.
> I can see the file in emacs it is encoded as 
> mule-utf-8-dos
> 
> I read the file into python as a string and suddenly the characters
> when printed looks strange and consists of two characters. 
> 
> First problem: How do I avoid this?
 >
 > Second problem is that I make some string replacements and more in
 > the string to write a latex output file. When I open this file in
 > emacs the characters now are not the same?
 >
 > Second problem: How do I avoid this?

When you read the filecontents in python, you'll have the "raw" byte 
sequence, in this case it is the UTF-8 encoding of unicode text. But you 
probably want a unicode string. Use "text = unicode(data, 'utf-8')" 
where "data" is the filecontent you read. After processing you probably 
want to write it back to a file. Before you do this, you will have to 
convert the unicode string back to a byte sequence. Use "data = 
text.encode('utf')".

Handling character encodings correctly *is* difficult. It's no shame, if 
you don't get it right on the first attempt.


From peter at engcorp.com  Sat Aug 28 23:31:19 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 23:31:19 -0400
Subject: about presicion
In-Reply-To: <8f17f4bc.0408281303.3cfb4199@posting.google.com>
References: <mailman.2518.1093611862.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<8f17f4bc.0408281303.3cfb4199@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <JN6dnW6HuNiU06zcRVn-pA@powergate.ca>

Ali wrote:

> The decimal module comes with python 2.4? I have 2.3, :(, what do I do?

The obvious answer is, well, obvious.  The real question is
what's stopping you from upgrading?

-Peter


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Sun Aug 22 09:13:34 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 13:13:34 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WEDONE?
References: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<mailman.2146.1093172019.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2_0Wc.8436$Jn5.1521@fe1.texas.rr.com>

"Paolo Veronelli" <paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it> wrote in message
news:mailman.2146.1093172019.5135.python-list at python.org...
>
>
> Some morphological images suggest me "through"  can be a keyword as it
> hide the verb filter which can be a little more general then others.
> Anyway using a verb or a noun doesn't suggest the orthogonality of the
> piece,so please consider adverbs as clever candidates.
>
> Paolino
>
>

I always thought "through" was a preposition.  So I googled for lists of
prepositions, and found these other candidates (they are also shorter):

per
via

-- Paul




From M.Waack at gmx.de  Tue Aug 24 12:20:23 2004
From: M.Waack at gmx.de (Mathias Waack)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:20:23 +0200
Subject: Overlapping tests
Message-ID: <8f6sv1-nj7.ln1@valpo.de>

Hi, 

I have some time consuming tests which could (and should) run
simultaneously. Is there a way to achieve this behavior without
using (self-coded) threads? Unittest seems to be designed to run one
test after another, but not to run much tests at the same time. 

The only way I can see so far is to start all tests during setUp()
and wait for each test-job in a job specific test() method. 

Mathias




From __peter__ at web.de  Mon Aug 16 16:21:41 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 22:21:41 +0200
Subject: passing globals to imported module
References: <mailman.1756.1092682856.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cfr50m$8fc$05$1@news.t-online.com>

James Tauber wrote:

> He has a script, foo.py with a global. He wants to import bar.py and
> needs that global available in bar.py

He should _not_ consider the following hack:

>>> import new, sys
>>> bar = new.module("bar")
>>> bar.my_global = "some value"
>>> sys.modules["bar"] = bar
>>> execfile("bar.py", bar.__dict__)
bar
['__builtins__', '__name__', '__doc__', 'my_global']
some value
>>>

$ cat bar.py
print __name__
print globals().keys()

def demo():
    print my_global

demo()

Peter



From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Tue Aug  3 16:05:40 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 16:05:40 -0400
Subject: simple Thread question
In-Reply-To: <b8001e9f.0408031151.4f617c6@posting.google.com>
References: <b8001e9f.0408031151.4f617c6@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408031557360.11453-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On 3 Aug 2004, adeger wrote:

> Having trouble with my first forays into threads.  Basically, the
> threads don't seem to be working in parallel (or you might say are
> blocking).  I've boiled my problems to the following short code block
> and ensuing output.  Seems like the output should be all interleaved
> and of course it's not.  Running Python 2.2 from ActiveState on
> Windows XP (also doesn't work on Windows 2000).

The Python interpreter isn't too thread-friendly.  Because it's not 
re-entrant, it has to make use of a Global Interpreter Lock in order to 
keep internal structures from getting mangled.  This lock only allows one 
thread to access the interpreter at a time, and switches threads every 
hundred or so bytecodes.  The likely cause of your problem is that your 
loops don't reach this switching threshold -- try using xrange(100) or 
higher.

The GIL is released during blocking I/O (or other) operations, and C 
extensions can release the lock if they plan on doing lots of non-Python 
processing.  Because of the former property, another thing you can try is 
inserting a time.sleep(.1) inside of each loop -- being a blocking I/O 
operation, this should cause the GIL to be released, and your threads will 
switch each time through the loop.

Aside from the performance loss on parallel-processing machines, there is 
usually no reason to worry about the GIL in Python code: so long as you 
make proper use of the thread synchronization routines, everything will 
work as you intend it to.



From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 17 21:13:47 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:13:47 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
In-Reply-To: <65adnQrUKILiC7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
References: <20040817181725194-0400@braeburn.themorgue.org>	<mailman.1829.1092785390.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<65adnQrUKILiC7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <cfuagb$r36$2@sea.gmane.org>

Peter Hansen wrote:

> Paul Morrow wrote:
> 
>> Kevin Smith wrote:
>>
>>> def classmethod foo(x, y, z):
>>>     pass
>>>
>>> That's it.  One "decorator" that is a callable object that takes a 
>>> method as it's only argument.  No expressions, lists, tuples, etc.  
>>> Just one callable object.  
>>
>>
>> Nope.  That's using static declarations.  We're a dynamically typed 
>> language as much as possible.  Isn't there something that doesn't 
>> require any additional grammar words to identify classmethods and 
>> staticmethods?  
> 
> 
> It looks to me as though Kevin is not suggesting keywords, but
> callables.  In other words he would consider this valid, provided
> my_own_decorator was a callable.
> 
>   def my_own_decorator foo(x, y, z):
>      pass
> 
> 
> -Peter

Oh, sorry, I wasn't reading that closely enough.  Hmmmm... it's an 
interesting idea.  It's not ugly...

First though, I still believe that we should exploit existing 
conventions (recommended coding practices) as a way of getting 'free' 
declarations for class, static, and instance methods (e.g. methods whose 
first param is 'self' are instance methods, etc.). That feels very 
pythonic to me, just as we use naming conventions to distinguish public, 
private, and semi-private methods.

But I think that, where we want to provide additional info about a 
method, and there are no conventions to take advantage of, Kevin's 
suggestion does have some appeal.

Questions (for Kevin):

1. Would

       def deco1 foo(a, b, c): pass

    be the same as (just syntactic sugar for)

       def foo(a, b, c): pass
       foo = deco1(foo)

    or would it mean something else?

2. Would

       def deco1 deco2 foo(a, b, c): pass

    be the same as

       def foo(a, b, c): pass
       foo = deco1(deco2(foo))

    or

       def foo(a, b, c): pass
       foo = deco2(deco1(foo))


3. Would there be any restrictions on what a decorator could *do* to the 
method it was passed?  e.g. Could it change:

   * the method's name (which could of course affect the method's
     visibility: public|private|semi-private)?
   * whether the method was a static, class, or instance method?
   * the method's signature (formal parameter names, parameter order,
     defaults values)?




From cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca  Wed Aug 18 15:13:29 2004
From: cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca (David M. Cooke)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:13:29 -0400
Subject: can tarfile maintain directory structure?
References: <a6fdfd6b.0408171508.65d670d0@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1838.1092794836.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<pan.2004.08.18.09.01.48.36081@gustaebel.de>
	<a6fdfd6b.0408181017.3d4f9820@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <qnku0v0jm3q.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>

At some point, jaydonnell at yahoo.com (Jay Donnell) wrote:

>> import tarfile
>> 
>> tar = tarfile.open(filename, "w:gz")
>> tar.add(directory)
>> tar.close()
>> 
>> The add() method is recursive by default. More information and examples
>> here: http://docs.python.org/lib/module-tarfile.html
>
> That doesn't maintain the directory structure. When you untar it all
> the files are in the base directory (when I untar it on windows with
> winzip).

Winzip is probably broken? It works for me using GNU tar on Linux.

-- 
|>|\/|<
/--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
|David M. Cooke
|cookedm(at)physics(dot)mcmaster(dot)ca


From AntiVir at yalta.us  Sun Aug 15 23:34:01 2004
From: AntiVir at yalta.us (AntiVir at yalta.us)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 06:34:01 +0300
Subject: AntiVir ALERT [mail from: "MAILER-DAEMON" <noreply@python.org>]
Message-ID: <200408160334.i7G3Y1K2024851@yalta.us>

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * AntiVir ALERT * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
????????? ????????? ????? ? ??????????????, ??????? ????????? ????? ??????!

???????????: "MAILER-DAEMON" <noreply at python.org>
???????? ??????: Worm/Mydoom.m	

????? ?? ???? ?????????? ??????????.

? ?????????;
        ???????? ????????
 ???.: +38(0654)271828
????.: +38(0654)231094
  web: www.yaltainfo.com
email: support at yalta.us


Mail-Info:
--8<--
 From: "MAILER-DAEMON" <noreply at python.org>
 To: python-list at python.org
 Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 03:32:17 +0300
 Subject: Delivery reports about your e-mail
--8<--

This version of AntiVir is licensed for private and non-commercial use.

--
AntiVir for UNIX
Copyright (C) 1994-2003 by H+BEDV Datentechnik GmbH. All rights reserved.
For more information see http://www.antivir.de/ or http://www.hbedv.com/


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug  3 16:19:35 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 16:19:35 -0400
Subject: executing python programs as if they were on OS path (noob)
In-Reply-To: <ceoq2d$8bh$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
References: <ceoogb$7lm$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<EpOdneEAjIQgepLcRVn-sA@powergate.ca>
	<ceoq2d$8bh$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <k_2dnTdzxdPEbpLcRVn-rw@powergate.ca>

Darren Dale wrote:

>> At least two options (assuming you're on Linux... you
>> didn't specify your OS unfortunately):
>>
> 
> I am currently on windows. I didnt think it would matter, sorry I left 
> that out.

Ah, you tricked us by using forward slashes in the sample
path. :-)

On Windows, the best answer depends on *which* Windows you
are on... 98?  XP?  Other?

-Peter


From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Aug 31 09:33:13 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 15:33:13 +0200
Subject: has_method
References: <mailman.2664.1093957984.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<41347A12.6020203@holdenweb.com>
	<mailman.2668.1093958695.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ch1ump$qhl$02$1@news.t-online.com>

Gandalf wrote:

> But since I have my method name in a variable, it will be this way:
> 
> methods = dir(self)
> if methodname in methods:
>     cmd = "self." + methodname
>     method = eval(cmd)
> 
> This is what I wanted to avoid - i.e. the use of eval. There must be an
> easier and quicker way to do this.

method = getattr(self, methodname, None)
if method:
    method(arg1, arg2)

Note that this may still fail if the attribute's value is not callable (and
bool(method) True). 
Use 

try:
    method(arg1, arg2)
except TypeError:
    pass

to guard against that.

Peter



From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Tue Aug 17 12:51:31 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 12:51:31 -0400
Subject: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xf3'
References: <4120F820.4000703@fusiondementes.com>
	<mailman.1775.1092723467.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10i4dt2gvu1th7f@news.supernews.com>

"Martin Slouf" <xslom03 at vse.cz> wrote in message
news:mailman.1775.1092723467.5135.python-list at python.org...
> i had similar errors:
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/home/martin/skripty/accounts.py", line 125, in ?
>     main(sys.argv)
>   File "/home/martin/skripty/accounts.py", line 119, in main
>     print_accounts(accounts, url_part)
>   File "/home/martin/skripty/accounts.py", line 94, in print_accounts
>     print str(i).encode("utf-8", "replace")
> UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode characters in position
> 151-152: ordinal not in range(128)
>
> - - - -
>
> the solution seems to be:
>
> 0. string is not in unicode encoding (assumption)
> 1. before printing out, convert the string to unicode
> 2. when printing, convert to whatever charset you like
>
> though i dont understand much why (ive solved it a minute ago :) the
> code should be:
>
> str = "any nonunicode string"
> print unicode(str).encode("iso-8859-2", "replace")

I think the terminology is backwards. If you use a unicode string
(that is, u"foo") that string will be in unicode. That's what Python
does with unicode strings. However,
it can't be read or written as such - it has to be decoded
from something else (utf-8, iso-8859-2, whatever)
after being read, and encoded to something (utf-8, iso-8859-1,
whatever) to be written.

A string on disk isn't in "unicode"; it's always in some
encoded format, which is usually utf-8. Or it's in some
single-byte format such as iso-8859-1. Or a far eastern
multi-byte format. A string only winds up in unicode
when it's comfortably ensconsed in a unicode string.

> comments:
>
> 1. why the string is not in unicode can have several reasons -- i guess:
> - does ogg stores tags in unicode?
> - you have parsed an xml file with encoding attribute set (that
> is what i do)
> - etc
>
> 2. "replace" parameter in encode causes non-printable chars to be
> replaced with '?' (you can use "ignore" or strict", see your python
> doc)
>
> 3. the above will work _only_ _if_ the 'str' encoding is "iso-8859-2" --
> a funny thing -- first line of code converts from unknown (but the
> programmer must know it) to unicode and the second one converts it back
> from unicode to unknown (now the programmer tells that secret to python
> :)

Well, the encoding declaration tells Python what to do with unicode
string literals that it finds in the Python source. It doesn't do anything
else.

> 4. i would like to know from any python expert whether/why/why not:
>
> * my assumptions are right

As I said above, the terminology is backwards. "Pure"
unicode only exists in unicode strings. Everything else
is some encoded character set or other in regular single
byte strings, ***including unicode encoded as utf-8.***

> * why is that behaviour? -- if you search google you get
> thousands of errors like this -- with no proper solutions i must add

There's a lot of confusion out there. Lots of people are under
the impression that the encoding declaration somehow does
something magical with unicode, when all, (and I need to
emphasize that, ALL) it does is convert the source code
to unicode in unicode literals using the specified decoding.
Everything outside of unicode literals is treated as a stream
of 8-bit bytes, regardless of the programmer's intentions.

Before the encoding declaration, if you wanted to
include unicode characters in your program you had
to use an editor that encoded in utf-8 and put them
in single byte strings, and then decode those strings
into unicode strings. This was fairly error-prone since
you could drop utf-8 encoded characters somewhere
they didn't belong, causing very difficult to find bugs.

> * is there an easier portable way (no sitecustomize.py changes)
> to do it

The best thing is to ignore the encoding declaration and
write the program as if it wasn't there. On input you need
to somehow determine the encoding of the data and then
decode that into a unicode string; on output you need
to do the reverse and encode the unicode string into a
single byte string before writing it.

You can simplify some of this by using the open
function in the codecs module. That lets you
declare the encoding on open so that the
encoding and decoding happens transparently.

> * i was looking in site.py and there is deleted the
> sys.setdefaultencoding() function, but from the comments i do
> not know why -- you know it? why is user not allowed to change the
> default encoding? it seems reasonable to me if he/she could do that.

That's someone else's answer. I'm not going to get into
the politics behind that, other than to say that there are
very serious release to release compatibility considerations
here.

John Roth

>
> thx.
>
> m.
>




From michael at elehack.net  Tue Aug 10 10:29:54 2004
From: michael at elehack.net (Michael Ekstrand)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 09:29:54 -0500
Subject: pro python paper
In-Reply-To: <305aa162.0408091905.5bce8f9a@posting.google.com>
References: <305aa162.0408091905.5bce8f9a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <200408100929.54132.michael@elehack.net>

On Monday 09 August 2004 22:05, ccdetail wrote:
> http://www.journyx.com/pdf/PythonAtAGlance.pdf

If the paper will be seeing a revision, one thing you might want to put 
in there. Google also uses Python extensively... it might be a worthy 
addition to your list of Python users, particularly given how much it 
is in the news of late.

-Michael


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Thu Aug  5 14:47:58 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 14:47:58 -0400
Subject: Decorator syntax
References: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA1A@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>
Message-ID: <cetvd0$n76$1@sea.gmane.org>

> def(staticmethod) somemethod(self, args):
>     some code

>could you or someone else please enlighten me, as someone who wasn't
>following the decorator syntax discussion, why this syntax was ruled
>out?

That particular syntax -- deco in parens and jammed up against was never
proposed.  A similar syntax -- no parens and a space was.  Guide said a) he
thought there would be parser issues and b) this would cause problems with
all support tools that assume that the next name after def is the function
name.

Also, some of the major proponents want parameterized decorators and
multiple decorators, not just a different position for staticmethod and
classmethod.  So

def staticmethod func...

then becomes something like

def [mydeco(a,b,a), attributes({'a':1,sayonara:'haha'}), staticumethod]
func\
(longparamname, somemore):

and it becomes difficult to find the function name, which is the most
important thing, after all.

For what its worth: 1) this issue and multiple alternatives has been
discussed since at least Jan 03.  Since then, it has possibly taken more
devel time, and probably more Pydev postings than any single other issue;
2) the PEP is broken and Guido knows it.  We'll see if someone volunteers
to fix it.

Terry J. Reedy





From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 11 16:10:11 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:10:11 -0400
Subject: Rather than decorators, how about sections?
In-Reply-To: <opsck16yq7dgjose@mail.yahoo.it>
References: <cfdegs$5oo$1@sea.gmane.org>	<1C74C038-EBB6-11D8-8889-000A95857E5C@eischet.com>	<cfdjus$qjo$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<opsck16yq7dgjose@mail.yahoo.it>
Message-ID: <cfduf1$3fh$1@sea.gmane.org>

paolo veronelli wrote:

> to understand where I was reading in the code .... now should I say 
> shame on you because you like self? Take it easy with words and have fun.

I don't particularly like the name 'self', but that *is* the recommended 
name to use as the first argument to all instance methods.  We are 
discouraged from using anything else, and rightly so.  We want the 
readers of our code to feel at home, to see familiar conventions.



From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Thu Aug 19 12:55:24 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:55:24 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
References: <20040817181725194-0400@braeburn.themorgue.org>
Message-ID: <10i9msuatli5p84@news.supernews.com>

"Kevin Smith" <Kevin.Smith at sas.com> wrote in message
news:20040817181725194-0400 at braeburn.themorgue.org...
> For what it's worth, I wrote the original PEP 318.  I probably wasn't
> qualified, but I just wanted a nice simple way to declare class methods
> without having to repeat the function name.  After submitting it to BDFL
> for approval, more work was needed and the discussion of PEP 318 on
> python-dev increased rapidly.  It was evident that I was in over my head,
> so I asked more someone more experienced to take over.
>
> I guess others had bigger plans for my proposal that I had planned.  It
> has turned into the "solution" to many problems: type checking (both
> arguments and returned values), metaclasses, metadata, interfaces,
> function attributes, etc.).  Unfortunately, in the process, this simple
> request for syntactical sugar has turned into a monstrosity.  In my
> opinion, none of the proposed syntaxes really seem Pythonic.  This PEP
> just seems to be trying to solve too many problems.

I don't think that is the case. What is actually going on has to do
with the mechanics of the classmethod and staticmethod functions.
They wrap the actual function in a special purpose descriptor.

The current approach is simply to allow running any wrapping
function, not just classmethod and staticmethod. That is, in a
very real sense, realistic because if they put in a special purpose
hack for just those two descriptors, then you'd get a huge backlash
from people who will still complain that it doesn't support, for
example, properties.

All the other stuff you're seeing isn't something that the proposal
has to support explicitly. You can wrap a function in any kind
of a descriptor you want. They are simply use cases, and IMHO,
some of them are not very well founded. However, none of them
involves one line of code more or less than the basic "allow
any descriptor anyone cares to write as a wrapper" approach.

The arguement is, and always has been, about syntax. Everyone
agrees that the current situation is not ideal; putting the wrapping
assignment statement after the method is a very poor way of
declaring intent.

In other words, forget the use cases. They're irrelevant. The
sticking point on syntax has to be solved first. If it is, then
I doubt if you're going to get a special purpose, just those
two specific descriptors and no others, solution. I just don't
see it happening.

There is, by the way, one syntax that hasn't to my knowledge
been proposed that is straightforward, natural, doesn't
make it begin to look like line noise and is completely
consistent with existing syntax. Just use the '.' operator
on the name and be done with it. For example:

def classmethod.fubar(self, widget, wadget, boff):
    pass

I'm not seriously proposing it because I'd like to reserve
that idea to be able to insert a method into an instance
or existing class without either having to do an extra
assignment, or having to pollute the module namespace
in passing.

John Roth

>
> -- 
> Kevin Smith
> Kevin.Smith at sas.com




From mfuhr at fuhr.org  Fri Aug 27 08:59:24 2004
From: mfuhr at fuhr.org (Michael Fuhr)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 06:59:24 -0600
Subject: DNS.DiscoverNameServer query
References: <mailman.2512.1093603199.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <412f302c$1_2@omega.dimensional.com>

"Tim Williams" <listserver at tdw.net> writes:

> How can I see which nameservers a  DNS.DiscoverNameServera()  finds?

import DNS
DNS.DiscoverNameServers()
print DNS.defaults['server']
# or 
req = DNS.DnsRequest()
print req.defaults['server']

-- 
Michael Fuhr
http://www.fuhr.org/~mfuhr/


From skip at pobox.com  Tue Aug 24 16:33:09 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 15:33:09 -0500
Subject: profiler
In-Reply-To: <cgg2mn$87r@odbk17.prod.google.com>
References: <mailman.2260.1093321039.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgg2mn$87r@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <16683.42501.355979.586984@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Brett> As of Python 2.4 you can also compile in support for C-level
    Brett> profiling into the interpreter (--enable-profiling).  See the
    Brett> in-dev docs (http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/) for details.

Ummm... That's a pretty high-level url.  How about:

    http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/whatsnew/node11.html

instead.  Even though I was the guy that added the --enable-profiling flag
to configure it still took me a couple minutes to find the above url. <wink>

Skip




From __peter__ at web.de  Sat Aug  7 02:31:44 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 08:31:44 +0200
Subject: Prothon is switching to the .NET platform
References: <000401c47b59$32539220$0d01a8c0@MarkVaio>
	<mailman.1257.1091769173.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061247130.22947-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<10h7lb21dhbuc12@news.supernews.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061533250.25906-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<10h7rittck6ct75@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <cf1t0h$ond$03$1@news.t-online.com>

John Roth wrote:

> 
> "Christopher T King" <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote in message
> news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061533250.25906-100000 at ccc8.wpi.edu...
>> On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, John Roth wrote:
>>
>> > I think it's possible to do prototypes within Python by
>> > overriding the __getattribute__() magic method. It still
>> > wouldn't be very pretty, but it should be able to do
>> > everything except override the magic methods (those
>> > seem to have to be in the class object for new style
>> > classes).
>>
>> Hm, I'd never thought of this before; something along the lines of:
>>
>>  class derive(object):
>>      def __init__(self,parent):
>>          self.parent = parent
>>      def __getattribute__(self,attr):
>>          return getattr(self.parent,attr)
>>
>>  myderivedobject = derive(myprototypeobject)
>>
>> would do the trick quite nicely I guess.  I have one application that
>> could benefit quite nicely from prototypes; I'll see if I can't work this
>> in.  Thanks for the enlightenment!
> 
> What I was thinking of was more along the lines of:
> 
> class ProtoBaseClass(object):
>     def __getattribute__(self, attr):
>         # call object.__getattribute__(self, __dict__)
>         # find requested attribute

Wouldn't that part be implied if you used __getattr__() instead of
__getattribute()?

>         # if not found, loop through back pointer chain
>         # if it's not a function, return the attribute
>         # if it is a function, wrap it in a method object and return it.

This means that an object sees all changes in its prototypes until
explicitly assigned an attribute. Is this intentional? (real question, I'm
not familiar with prototyped languages)
 
>     def clone(self):
>         # create new instance
>         # insert back pointer to this instance
>         return <new instance>
> 
> Then you can create a new instance simply by calling self.clone().
> The only time you'd call the class itself is to get a new root
> instance, which might even be a singleton (making an easy
> way to get the root instance!).
> 
> The place where this gets really ugly is inserting functions
> into the instances. They have to be created at the module
> level, and then inserted into the instance by a module level
> function (somewhat similar to the way classmethod,
> staticmethod and property work).

I haven't fully thought this through, but it might work along the lines of

class Stop(object): # always raise AttributeError
    pass

class ProtoBaseClass(object):
    parent = Stop()
    def __init__(self, parent=None):
        if parent is None:
            self.parent = self.parent
        else:
            self.parent = parent
    # __getattr__()            
    # clone()

and then to clone with new methods:

class Cloned(ProtoBaseClass):
    parent = someInstance
    def method(self):
       pass

c = Cloned() # parent should be someInstance, method() should work as
expected.
 
> I'd be quite interested in what you [Christopher] come up with.

Me too.

Peter



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Fri Aug 13 15:26:13 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:26:13 -0400
Subject: Deep Black Magic in Python: please help
References: <807692de.0408130310.6e3ed9db@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfj4kl$smg$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Jan Burgy" <jburgy at hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:807692de.0408130310.6e3ed9db at posting.google.com...
>         return arg_dict["one"] + self.bar(arg_dict)

> It shouldn't be all that hard. My problem is the lookup of 'self.bar'. In
> the AST it looks something like
>
>     CallFunc(Getattr(Name('self'), 'bar'), [Name('arg_dict')], None,
None)
>
> How do I find the corresponding function?

The lookup returns a bound method, whose structure is an implementation
detail.

Completely untested suggestion, possibly not correct or possible:

Write an implementation-specific unwrap function.  Then either augment the
source code

.... + unwrap(self.bar)(self, arg_dict) # self now an explict arg

or the analysis code to do the unwrapping.  For the latter, recognize
Name('self') and replace the result of Getattr(Name('self'), 'bar') with
unwrap(thereof) and, again, augment the arg list.

Terry J. Reedy





From martin at v.loewis.de  Mon Aug  9 02:43:18 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 08:43:18 +0200
Subject: how many bytes in an int
In-Reply-To: <FADRc.1532$bJ2.9871@news1.mts.net>
References: <9ACRc.1523$bJ2.9739@news1.mts.net>
	<4116f8ee$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<FADRc.1532$bJ2.9871@news1.mts.net>
Message-ID: <41171D06.6060507@v.loewis.de>

Reid Nichol wrote:
> I'm thinking of writing a movie file encoder (probably avi).  So, I need 
> to output DWORD (lookup revealed its a 4-byte int) to a binary file. 
> Therefore I need to know whether this can be done in python or not, 
> which will tell me whether I'll try to do it or not.

You looked up DWORD somewhat incorrectly. It is a four byte int in 
memory, but on disk, it is a little-endian byte string of four bytes.

So you *do* need the struct module, because only that will give you
byte strings (of course, Grant's formula also works)

> But, since the 64-bit archecture is out, short, long, etc may change 
> there meanings quite soon.  From what I've read in the struct module 
> docs I can only tell it that it's a short, long, etc. but not whether 
> it's exactly a 4-byte int.  Is there a way to do this?

As Grant says: use the struct module. Use struct.calcsize to find out
how large an int is. If the size is too large, try a short. If the size
is too small, try a long. If no type matches, take the next larger type,
and drop the extra bytes.

However, it does not actually need to be that difficult: "int" is 32-bit
on all current systems, including all 64-bit systems (only long is 
64-bits on some 64-bit systems).

Regards,
Martin


From harry.g.george at boeing.com  Thu Aug 19 12:03:59 2004
From: harry.g.george at boeing.com (Harry George)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:03:59 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<41237124.4060600@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<r7q4s9yy.fsf@python.net>
Message-ID: <xqxn00r868g.fsf@cola2.ca.boeing.com>

Thomas Heller <theller at python.net> writes:

> Robin Becker <robin at reportlab.com> writes:
> 
> > Lucas Raab wrote:
> >
> >> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> >> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> >> about....
> >>
> > 57, used to build my own logic using gas discharge tubes :)
> 
> 48, but my first logic was build using 24V relays.

52, and my first logic circuit was an inverter via a homemade relay
run from a 6V battery.  (Dad: "Interesting alarm system.  Do you know
you have invented a relay?"  Me: "What's a relay?")

-- 
harry.g.george at boeing.com
6-6M21 BCA CompArch Design Engineering
Phone: (425) 342-0007


From chrisks at NOSPAMudel.edu  Fri Aug  6 01:39:51 2004
From: chrisks at NOSPAMudel.edu (Chris S.)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 05:39:51 GMT
Subject: Object Reference?
Message-ID: <HQEQc.6327$rM6.4368@trndny03>

I'm trying to make a graphical editor and browser for Pickled files. One 
aspect I'm not sure about is how to detect multiple references to the 
same data.

For instance, say I had the Pickled data:
a=[1,2,3]
b=[a,4,5]
c=[b,6,7]
d=[a,b,c]

The idea is to allow the user to browse this data and indicate 
references. In this case, if 'a' was selected, the browser should show 
that 'b', 'c', and 'd' contain a reference to 'a'. Inversely, if 'c' 
were selected, it should indicate that it's first element just isn't a 
list, but a reference to a list defined elsewhere, namely 'b'.

Naturally, I could just recursively parse all the data comparing every 
element to every previously listed object, but is there a less obtrusive 
method? Python figures out when to delete objects based on the remaining 
references to an object. Is there a way to access this information to 
automatically lookup these references? Any help is greatly appreciated.


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Wed Aug 11 13:20:12 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:20:12 GMT
Subject: Rather than decorators, how about sections?
References: <mailman.1509.1092238688.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <gzsSc.3102$M8.1654@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"Paul Morrow" <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1509.1092238688.5135.python-list at python.org...
> I like many am not wild about the <at> operator.  I also don't think
> that the decorator syntax should be so directly attached to the method,
> since what we're trying to do is to say something about the
> *relationship between* a method and a class (e.g. "method m is a
> staticmethod of class C").
>
> So if we are going to extend the Python grammar to support this sort of
> thing (which I believe is a good idea), my preference would be to
> introduce named sections within a class definition, such as...
>
>      class Foo(object):
>          staticmethods:
>              def baz(a,b):
>                  print "I'm a static method."
>              def bez(c,d):
>                  print "I'm a static method too."
>
>          classmethods:
>              def biz(klass):
>                  print "I'm a class method."
>
>
>          def __init__(self):
>              print "We all know what I am."
>
This only addresses the "decoration" for declaring static and class methods.
The decorator mechanism is intended to include much more than this simple
class declaration feature.  See
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/PythonDecoratorLibrary for the first
application (memoize - a return value cacheing helper/decorator, to optimize
access to repetitive or compute-intensive function calls, with NO changes
needed to the function itself).  Other decorator candidates I've seen
mentioned are:
- mutex lock/unlock wrapper
- debugging/logging wrapper
- pre-condition/post-condition assertion wrappers
- input argument validation/typing wrapper
- return value type validation wrapper

For this degree of flexibility, you can't hard-wire in specific section
names.

-- Paul




From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 30 17:38:55 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 17:38:55 -0400
Subject: "Content-Length" header
In-Reply-To: <ch05dt$t0p@odak26.prod.google.com>
References: <ch05dt$t0p@odak26.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <4p6dnegTwNnsA67cRVn-tg@powergate.ca>

Justin, maybe it would help you and us if you would take
a moment to read this document: 
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

If you followed the advice therein, it would go a long way
to helping you get better answers, faster.


Justin wrote:
> URL open appears to not want to work unless its paramater is an actual
> string spelled out in quotes.  Check out the output to this code.  When
> I give urlopen objects instead of pre strings it doens't work
> correctly.

What is a "pre string"?

> #This is the tuple with three urls in it, they all look correct to me

Actually, it's a list, not a tuple.  That may sound picky, but
it's sometimes critical to be precise about things.  Maybe not
in this case, but I can't be sure...

> ['http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~harnad/temp/ariadne-rae.doc',
> 'http://www.ecs.soto
> n.ac.uk/~harnad/temp/ukparl.doc',
> 'http://www-admn.csun.edu/systech/techsupport/
> procedures/2kcleanup.doc']

What good is that though?  You don't appear even to have
assigned it to anything.  Or it is likely you aren't cutting
and pasting the *exact* code you are trying to run into the
window when you create your messages.  Please don't try retyping
the lines as you post the message: you'll just miss out the
critical stuff.

Note also that the indentation is screwed up for many (or all?)
of us, so that makes it extra hard to help you.

At this point, I strongly recommend you spend some time playing
around at the *interactive interpreter* prompt.  You appear to
be trying code-and-fix style programming in an area in which you
don't have a lot of familiarity.  Rather than editing your source
file and running it at the console, open the Python interactive
prompt (just type "python" at the console prompt) and start
executing these commands manually, inspecting the results each
step of the way and trying to figure out the problem yourself.

This will do two main things.  It will likely lead you to the
source of the problem, which I assure you will seem simple and
silly and, in hindsight, obvious.  It will also equip you with
a very useful and effective tool for figuring out such things
for yourself in the future.

Rest assured we've all been at this stage once, and all got
past it...

-Peter


From cybermanxu at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 25 15:22:13 2004
From: cybermanxu at hotmail.com (Jinming Xu)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:22:13 -0500
Subject: counterpart for Python None in C++ side
Message-ID: <BAY9-F23i71mrvoGdKO00001841@hotmail.com>

Hi Folks,

Regarding my previous message concerning Python None, I now understand. We 
use it in most functions!

Sorry to disturb you guys!


Jinming Xu

_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to 
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement



From dbickett at gmail.com  Sun Aug  1 21:59:58 2004
From: dbickett at gmail.com (Beeyah)
Date: 1 Aug 2004 18:59:58 -0700
Subject: written improvement on ftplib.FTP(); relevant questions
Message-ID: <1d6cdae3.0408011759.44a5790e@posting.google.com>

in my inability to find a working ftp program for my mac, i decided to
write one in python. i wrote a class (link at end of post) that
inherited ftplib.FTP and made the process slightly less involved, but
it brought up a few questions:

using the sendcmd() method to do a simple "LIST" command returns an
error explaining that a data connection could not be opened, just as
if you connected to a ftp server using telnet. so, you use the method
retrlines() with "LIST", and everything's fine. the whole module, in
my opinion, seems like a piece of work. every method gives the
appearance of a workaround. i get the impression it would be
enormously easier to manipulate and comprehend if you simply wrote it
on your own with sockets.

so what i'm saying is i want to write my own ftp class, but i don't
know how to handle the two seperate data/command sockets. i started to
read the rfc, but i'm so sick of those things lately. if it isn't a
simple explanation, could someone point me to an appropriate document,
or the relevant page of the rfc, that will explain the process of the
command connection versus the data connection in general programatic
terms? I'd appreciate that.

anyway, if anyone's interested, i'll link to the class i wrote. it
uses a queue to store messages from the server and general program
messages, with the intention of having a seperate thread to sit and
interpret/output. in addition, the class is intentionally completely
detached from the fate of the program, that way it could be more
universal. with that in mind, when something fatal involving the
connection has occured, it pushes a simple "exit" string to the queue
-- one that could be changed to a numeric representation of an error
message or whatever, to be "interpreted" so to speak. its right here:

http://216.67.238.18/~bar/misc/BetterFTP.py

Beeyah


From Michael_Hobbs at archway.com  Tue Aug 24 19:51:43 2004
From: Michael_Hobbs at archway.com (Hobbs, Michael)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:51:43 -0500
Subject: Inline Conditionals?
Message-ID: <9EB8573B0FE2D84288F0D1D73904322201F987E8@euler>

Adonis <adonisv at DELETETHISTEXTearthlink.net> wrote...
> "Joshua Ginsberg" <joshg at brainstorminternet.net> wrote in message
> news:mailman.2307.1093385983.5135.python-list at python.org...
> > Is there any plan to include inline conditionals in Python? 
> For example:
> >
> > def isNegative(x):
> > return x < 0 ? True : False
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > -jag
> >
> > -- 
> > Joshua Ginsberg <joshg at brainstorminternet.net>
> > Brainstorm Internet Network Operations
> >
> 
> How about something like:
> 
> >>> def iif(condition, true=True, false=False):
> ...     if condition:
> ...             return true
> ...     return false
> ...
> >>> iif('foo' == 'bar', 'w00t', 'l33t')
> 'l33t'
> >>> iif('bar' == 'bar', 'w00t', 'l33t')
> 'w00t'
> >>> iif('bar' == 'bar')
> True
> >>> iif('foo' == 'bar')
> False
> >>>

Probably good enough, but not an exact replacement. For example, such a
function wouldn't
work well for this:

  >>> name = line is None ? None : line[4:]

If you call iif() when line is None, you get an error:

  >>> name = iif(line is None, None, line[4:])
  Traceback (most recent call last):
    File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
  TypeError: unsubscriptable object

Because `line[4:]' is evaluated regardless if `line is None'.


From heikowu at ceosg.de  Wed Aug 11 17:50:50 2004
From: heikowu at ceosg.de (Heiko Wundram)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 23:50:50 +0200
Subject: rsa implementation question
In-Reply-To: <1092217625.4119eb1976a92@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
References: <1092200894.4119a9beb1978@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
	<5GkSc.124$O72.121@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>
	<1092217625.4119eb1976a92@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <200408112350.50959.heikowu@ceosg.de>

Am Mittwoch, 11. August 2004 11:47 schrieb Ajay:
> >  > i am using RSa for signing documents and hence decrypting and then
> >  > encrypting to verify?

Oh, btw., if you're not necessarily bound to PyCrypto, you might give 
Cryptopia a try:

http://www.heim-d.de/~heikowu/Crypto

It's a wrapper for GMP (PyGMP) combined with an ElGamal and RSA 
encryption/decryption engine, and it's fast, faster than PyCrypto for large 
key sizes (because it uses GMP) and simpler to use (because everything that 
is returned from decrypt/encrypt is returned in classes which can easily be 
stored to string/loaded from string). I've only built it on Linux and 
Solaris, can't say if it'll build/work on Windows, although there is a port 
of GMP to Windows out there...

Look at the examples if you need more info on how to use it.

Heiko.


From jerf at jerf.org  Sat Aug 28 16:30:10 2004
From: jerf at jerf.org (Jeremy Bowers)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 20:30:10 GMT
Subject: Testing automatically on import (was: Re: allowing braces around
	suites)
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<tyf3c28ps1t.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
	<1ry8k0d2az.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<10iv0kid2ig9ka6@corp.supernews.com>
	<1rpt5ccbso.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<10ivpk9inpnh65@corp.supernews.com>
	<1rd61bd26k.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<1gj892g.1hlc8ar1po78b6N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.28.16.30.10.125568@jerf.org>

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:15:24 +0200, Alex Martelli wrote:

> Hmmm -- I'm thinking that the existing import hooks might be enough to
> let one prototype this "automatic checking" functionality, not quite as
> smoothly as a fully architected system maybe, but enough to get some
> early adopters, shake out teething problems, build a constituency to
> lobby for smoother integration in a future Python version...

You know, I'm totally unexcited about the syntax stuff this thread is
putatively about, but running automated testing over newly imported stuff
sounds kind of useful, not just for development but deployment as well;
"forcing" the users to run the tests once and report problems could be
very useful in some contexts. 

I already tend to name my unit tests for file "x.py" as "tests/xTest.py"...

Maybe something that looks for a __validate__ function taking no args in a
module and runs it if the code was imported and newly compiled, combined
with a few convenience functions for the common cases?

I'm not *quite* familiar with the import hook stuff to knock this off
right away. I tried prototyping it but got stuck on how to determine if a
Python file already has an up-to-date .pyc file. (Although I guess there
may be external dependencies... well in the interest of keeping it simple,
deal with that later.)


From nospam at here.com  Wed Aug 18 16:32:43 2004
From: nospam at here.com (Richard Townsend)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 21:32:43 +0100
Subject: can tarfile maintain directory structure?
References: <a6fdfd6b.0408171508.65d670d0@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1838.1092794836.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<pan.2004.08.18.09.01.48.36081@gustaebel.de>
	<a6fdfd6b.0408181017.3d4f9820@posting.google.com>
	<qnku0v0jm3q.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
Message-ID: <ad76yk803z8l.1n6ntvoo4dmiy$.dlg@40tude.net>

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:13:29 -0400, David M. Cooke wrote:
> 
> Winzip is probably broken? It works for me using GNU tar on Linux.


There was a bug report relating to tarfile & WinZip:
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=5470&atid=105470&func=detail&aid=949052

Looks like it was closed today.

regards,
Richard


From ny_r_marquez at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 17 12:18:14 2004
From: ny_r_marquez at yahoo.com (R.Marquez)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 09:18:14 -0700
Subject: Simple exceptions question
References: <f8097096.0408161106.6292244f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <8a27e309.0408170624.51124c01@posting.google.com>

Not sure if this is all you need, but have tried this?

def main():
    #define vars
    try:
        foo(a, b, c)
    except IndexError:
        traceback.print_exc()


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Tue Aug  3 04:13:28 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Tue,  3 Aug 2004 18:13:28 +1000
Subject: how do i  do this - stream file
Message-ID: <1091520808.410f49288f67d@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

How do i create and stream a file?
On a webpage i have a link to a file. Next to it i would like link, which,
when pressed, runs a script that calculates the signature of the file,
pickles the signature to a file and then gives a dialog box asking the
user whether they would like to save the file or open it.

I have the script to do the signing and pickle the signature into a file,
but how do i allow the user to download it?

thanks

cheers

--
Ajay Brar,






----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 10 08:45:00 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 08:45:00 -0400
Subject: Python equivalent to a C trick
In-Reply-To: <slrnchgsml.8e4.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>
References: <1d7b6d0d.0408092255.1177908e@posting.google.com>
	<slrnchgsml.8e4.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <1ZqdnTY4J9DTXoXcRVn-rg@powergate.ca>

Sam Holden wrote:

> But I don't know if int(False)==0 and int(True)==1 are actually
> guaranteed. And I wouldn't use it since it's ugly (IMHO).

 From the language ref at http://docs.python.org/ref/types.html#l2h-37

  Booleans
  These represent the truth values False and True. The two objects
  representing the values False and True are the only Boolean objects.
  The Boolean type is a subtype of plain integers, and Boolean values
  behave like the values 0 and 1, respectively, in almost all contexts,
  the exception being that when converted to a string, the strings
  "False" or "True" are returned, respectively.

So yes, it's fully guaranteed.


From pwilkinson at videotron.ca  Fri Aug  6 14:17:45 2004
From: pwilkinson at videotron.ca (Peter Wilkinson)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 14:17:45 -0400
Subject: unicode to ascii converting
In-Reply-To: <1091815856.527127@news.commspeed.net>
References: <mailman.1296.1091813051.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1091815856.527127@news.commspeed.net>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040806141614.01b8fcb0@pop.videotron.ca>

Thanks Tom B.,

I will try that for now ....

It would be good to find out _why_ this happens in the first place. I will 
keep do a little searching on this for a few days.


Peter W.


At 02:04 PM 8/6/2004, Tom B. wrote:

>"Peter Wilkinson" <pwilkinson at videotron.ca> wrote in message
>news:mailman.1296.1091813051.5135.python-list at python.org...
> > Hello tlistmembers,
> >
> > I am using the encoding function to convert unicode to ascii. At one point
> > this code was working just fine, however, now it has broken.
> >
> > I am reading a text file that has is in unicode (I am unsure of which
> > flavour or bit depth). as I read in the file one line at a time
> > (readlines()) it converts to ascii. Simple enough. At the same time I am
> > copressing to bz2 with the bz2 module but that works just fine.  The code
> > is and error reported appears below. I am unsure what to do.
> >
> > I assume that because it is reporting that ordinal is not in range, that
> > something to do with the character width that I am reading?
> >
> > Peter W.
> >
> > def encode_file(file_path, encode_type, compress='N'):
> >      """
> >      Changes encoding of file
> >      """
> >      new_encode = encode_type
> >      old_file_path = file_path + '.old'
> >      new_file_path = file_path
> >      os.rename(file_path,old_file_path)
> >      file_in  = file(old_file_path,'r')
> >
> >      if compress == 'Y' or compress == 'y':
> >          bz_file_path = file_path + '.bz2'
> >          bz_file_out  = bz2.BZ2File(bz_file_path, 'w')
> >          for line in file_in.readlines():
> >              bz_file_out.write(line.encode(new_encode))
> >          bz_file_out.close()
> >
> >      else:
> >          file_out = file(file_path,'w')
> >          for line in file_in.readlines():
> >              file_out.write(line.encode(new_encode))
> >          file_out.close()
> >
> >      file_in.close()
> >      os.remove(old_file_path)
> >
> > ERROR Reported:
> >
> > Parsing
> >
>X:\GenomeQuebec_repository\microarray\HIS\M15K\Step_1_repository\HISH0224.tx
>t
> > Traceback (most recent call last):
> >    File "C:\Program Files\ActiveState Komodo 2.5\callkomodo\kdb.py", line
> > 433, in _do_start
> >      self.kdb.run(code_ob, locals, locals)
> >    File "C:\Python23\lib\bdb.py", line 350, in run
> >      exec cmd in globals, locals
> >    File "C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\xBio\Scripts\unicodeToAscii.py",
> > line 158, in ?
> >      main()
> >    File "C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\xBio\Scripts\unicodeToAscii.py",
> > line 75, in main
> >      encode_file(fileToProcess, options.encode,  'Y')
> >    File "C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\xBio\Scripts\unicodeToAscii.py",
> > line 144, in encode_file
> >      bz_file_out.write(line.encode(new_encode))
> > UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xff in position 0:
> > ordinal not in range(128)
> >
>I've encountered this problem before and the solution I've come up with a
>fix that works but is probably not the best,
>
>def is_ord (strng):
>     new_text = ''
>     for i in strng:
>         if ord(i) > 127:
>             new_text = new_text + ''
>         else:
>             new_text = new_text + i
>     return new_text
>
>#Then just,
>
>text_from_file = is_ord(text_from_file)
>
>Tom
>
>
>--
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Mon Aug 23 19:34:11 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:34:11 -0700
Subject: Why are strings immutable?
In-Reply-To: <DbqdnXN8NqpMxrfcRVn-pw@comcast.com>
References: <chzVc.288437$a24.71659@attbi_s03>
	<ibednRPmoMofVbvcRVn-oA@powergate.ca>
	<O%rWc.171256$8_6.61890@attbi_s04>
	<DbqdnXN8NqpMxrfcRVn-pw@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <10ikvme4ks3oda9@corp.supernews.com>

Larry Bates wrote:

>Your example:
>
>List = [ ]
>for i in range(20000):
>    Word = DoSomeProcessing()
>    List.extend(list(Word))
>Str = ''.join(List)
>
>
>will work as:
>
>words=[]
>for i in xrange(20000):
>    word = DoSomeProcessing()
>    words.append(word)
>
>word_string = ' '.join(words)
>  
>

Or even (using a list comp):

words = ' '.join( [DoSomeProcessing() for i in xrange(20000)] )

Though I have to wonder what you're doing with a 20,000 word string, 
built programmatically word-by-word.  While I don't know what you're 
doing, here, the way you're building it seems to suggest to me that a 
list or dictionary may actually be a more natural way to handle your data.

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From mwh at python.net  Mon Aug 16 07:51:17 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:51:17 GMT
Subject: Flython
References: <slrnchq8lg.q3d.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
	<mailman.1644.1092461737.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408140153500.21775-100000@ccc2.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <m3llgfmhca.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Christopher T King <squirrel at WPI.EDU> writes:

> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Terry Reedy wrote:
> 
> > Knowing nothing about Flash bytecode, but knowing a bit about other Python
> > to X projects, I wonder whether it might be more immediately feasible to
> > either translate Python bytecode or generate Flash bytecode with an AST
> > tree walker.
> 
> We'll soon find out ;)
> 
> (Unfortunately, AST trees don't match up exactly with Python grammar, so 
> I'm having to learn the format by trial-and-error.  Not much fun.  Is 
> there documentation on the AST forms anywhere?)

Which AST are you talking about?  Which version of Python, etc?

However, the answer to the "documentation" plea is probably "no".

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Do I do everything in C++ and teach a course in advanced swearing?
         -- David Beazley at IPC8, on choosing a language for teaching


From none at nowhere.null  Sat Aug  7 11:45:39 2004
From: none at nowhere.null (Ivo)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 15:45:39 GMT
Subject: Tkinter "tab viewing" how-to?
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.07.15.45.26.834040@nowhere.null>

Hi All,
I would implement a tab viewing (like mozilla) using the Tkinter toolkit.
Does anyone know if is it possible and where i can find doc about?
Thanks,

	Ivo



From gohaku at earthlink.net  Mon Aug  9 20:52:21 2004
From: gohaku at earthlink.net (gohaku)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 20:52:21 -0400
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar, but for what exactly?
In-Reply-To: <d111eafa.0408091406.a125d87@posting.google.com>
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
	<4115b53a$1@nntp0.pdx.net> <4116239e$1@news.012.net.il>
	<d111eafa.0408081949.3c28a465@posting.google.com>
	<d111eafa.0408090138.23bc6989@posting.google.com>
	<4117a43b$1@news.012.net.il>
	<d111eafa.0408091406.a125d87@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <898217E4-EA67-11D8-9DC2-000A9574CFD8@earthlink.net>

In case it has not been brought up before...

@decorator reminds me too much of Perl arrays.



From kamikaze at kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu  Thu Aug  5 20:29:03 2004
From: kamikaze at kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 00:29:03 GMT
Subject: Decorator syntax
References: <mailman.1173.1091670172.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnch5684.15vo.kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu>
	<keudnQvYrYzDAo_cRVn-gQ@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <slrnch5k6f.15vo.kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu>

Istvan Albert <ialbert at mailblocks.com>
wrote on Thu, 05 Aug 2004 16:58:07 -0400:
> Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes wrote:
>> class foo:
>>     def introduceNewFeature(self, someArgument, anotherArgument): [synchronized, types="o,i,i"]
>>         pass # whatever
> Those who need argument type-checking should
> go to Guido and talk to him about it. Piggybacking
> this in as decorators makes everybody lose.

  They have talked to him about it.  It's been talked to death.  One of
the major groups pushing for decorators are PyObjC users, who need it to
make the interface vaguely tolerable.

  Also consider web services, which need metadata to access Python with
anything but raw strings.  That metadata can be stored in an XML file or
something, but it's best if it's *right there* on the function def.

  This is not an in-Python type-checking mechanism, but a mechanism for
attaching additional information to functions, mostly so they can
interact with things that are not Python.

>> 3) A large proportion of Python programmers are also Java programmers,
>>    and won't object to the @-syntax.
> yay. love is in the air.

  I have no idea what you were trying to say there.

-- 
 <a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"Virtues foster one another; so too, vices.
 Bad English kills trees, consumes energy, and befouls the Earth.
 Good English renews it." -The Underground Grammarian, v1n2


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 28 09:47:38 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:47:38 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <b8ad139e.0408280449.594de950@posting.google.com>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408261420.22d14998@posting.google.com>	<mailman.2478.1093564289.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408271635.6b76e9b7@posting.google.com>	<mailman.2550.1093655878.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b8ad139e.0408280449.594de950@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgq2dq$mqc$2@sea.gmane.org>

Jess Austin wrote:

> Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.2550.1093655878.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> 
>>Jess Austin wrote:
>>

> Why didn't you respond to my detailed explanation of how binding and
> scoping work in Python?  Would it be worth my time to restate the
> explanation in simpler terms?
> 
> 

I was going to, but couldn't really find one main idea in there to 
respond to.  It was a long paragraph full of lots and lots of complex 
ideas, where many sentences had multiple interpretations.  It seemed as 
if, for almost every statement you made in that section, I would either 
1) beg to differ, 2) reply that you were being imprecise in your 
assertions, or 3) just not understand what you were talking about and 
ask for you to explain what you meant.

If you would clearly restate the point you're trying to make, I'll 
gladly try to respond to it.

> 
>>>>Others seem to want to specify a function's metadata outside of the 
>>>>function def, which just doesn't seem pythonic (IMO).
>>>
>>>
>>>If you really understood Python's scoping rules, you would know that
>>>this opinion is the opposite of the truth.
>>
>>A decorator is a kind of meta information.  So are docstrings.  The 
>>proposals I've been seeing (A1 and J2 in particular) declare decorators 
>>and docstrings outside of the function def (not inside of the function def).
> 
> 
> I'll be more specific.  "Others seem to want to specify a function's
> metadata outside of the function def": truth.  "which just doesn't
> seem pythonic": opposite of truth.  "(IMO)": apparently truth. 
> Pythonic is a word with a meaning (in this newsgroup anyway), and
> modifying an object's namespace from outside _is_ pythonic: 

Really?  Can you show me an example of this?


> we've
> always been able to do so (at least since mid-1999 when I started
> using python) and we always will be able to do so.

Just because we *can* do it doesn't make it Pythonic.  To be Pythonic, 
it must be beautiful (IMO).  We can do lot's of things to an object from 
outside of it's definition that are not Pythonic (IMO).  Directly 
updating it's __dict__ would be one example (IMO).

> Your proposed
> arbitrary character-driven change to Python's conventional scoping
> rules would _not_ be pythonic.

In your opinion.

> It may in fact be your opinion that
> such a change would be pythonic, but I correctly classified that
> opinion as the opposite of truth.
> 

I don't know what classifying an "opinion as the opposite of truth" 
means.   Opinions are subjective assessments.

>  
> 
>>>Of all the current
>>>incarnations of function "metadata", only one may be set within the
>>>function, and that one is not set using a standard binding statement:
>>>
>>
>>True and True, provided that you believe that docstrings are the only 
>>kind of function metadata.  I believe though that attributes like 
>>__author__ and __version__ above are also function metadata.
> 
> 
> Metadata is a programmer's convention, or perhaps in this case
> religious belief.  

What?  Metadata is a convention?  Metadata is a belief?

> I'm not certain what your precise convention is
> since you haven't explained it.

I'm not suggesting a new coding convention.  I'm suggesting that we 
continue to us magic (__xxx__) attributes for all magic behavior.

> You evidently expect all
> "experienced" programmers to know it and respect it.  Apparently it
> has something to do with underscore characters.

Yes I do.  Yes it does.

Paul



From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 12 13:32:32 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:32:32 -0400
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1566.1092328555.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1566.1092328555.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <EvadnaOm3bItNIbcRVn-iQ@powergate.ca>

paolo veronelli wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:40:32 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> I think 'mutate' is better then 'decorate', and anyway I like to see 
> what is mutated and the possibility to explicitate it make possible
> to move decorations from this position ,I put them where I like (at 
> least if I have to call them decorations) even in another file...
> 
> so
> 
> class Klass:
>     def meth0(x):
>         return x
>     mutate meth0:
>         staticmethod
> 
> mutate Klass.meth0:
>     debugged
> 
> reads good to me.

This has the disadvantage of repeating the function name.  I know
you call it an advantage...  but arguably the biggest part of
the whole decorator "argument" revolves around whether or not
it's critical to put the decorator right up above the "def" so
that it can't be missed.  If the method you describe above was
deemed acceptable, then I think we'd be sticking with the
current approach that just reads "func = decorate(func)".

-Peter


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 23 15:06:09 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:06:09 -0400
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2237.1093286007.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2237.1093286007.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <7umdnWsYNds1orfcRVn-jA@powergate.ca>

Oliver Fromme wrote:
> So, FWIW, I think both "using" and "with" are fine,
> although both of those remind me of completely unrelated
> things.
> 
> ("Using" as in the "print using" statement of certain
> ancient dialects of BASIC which was used for formatted
> output, as well as the "use" statement in perl to import
> a module.  

I would call this a good precedent.  Or at least I'd
say that they choose the word well for that purpose,
and our purpose here is very similar.

(For those that don't recall this, I believe it was
similar to if not exactly like the following, where
it functions rather like a decorator in the sense
of transforming the usual function in a certain way:

   PRINT USING '$###.##', total_dollars
)


-Peter


From bradtilley at usa.net  Sun Aug 22 21:44:48 2004
From: bradtilley at usa.net (Brad Tilley)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:44:48 -0400
Subject: 2 GB files
In-Reply-To: <qnku0uusllk.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
References: <9418be08.0408221427.182a4d30@posting.google.com>
	<prSdnX0h1KUgubTcRVn-gg@lmi.net>
	<qnku0uusllk.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
Message-ID: <cgbi6f$o66$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>

David M. Cooke wrote:
> At some point, "David Pokorny" <davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> 
> 
>>"Elbert Lev" <elbertlev at hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:9418be08.0408221427.182a4d30 at posting.google.com...
>>
>>>From postings to this group and other resources I understood that the
>>>only way to make Python programs to work correctly with files lager
>>>then 2 GB is building Python interpreter with some "magic spell"
>>>defines. For me this is ABSOLUTELY unacceptable (Not the building, but
>>
>>Elbert: you might get a positive response if you rephrased your post.
>>
>>"Our corporation needs functionality ___. We would be happy to pay a
>>contract consultant $n000 to come up with a solution that will work with a
>>future trajectory of Python releases."
>>
>>Or you could pray to the OSS gods.
> 
> 
> Or do better research, as it already has it.
> 
> My python (from Debian) has large file support, for instance. Python's
> configure script will use if it can find it.
> 
> The OP doesn't mention what he's using that doesn't have large files
> (OS, platform, python version...)

Yeah, many older filesystems won't go over 2GB... remeber the 2GB 
partition limit in fat?


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug 20 14:10:25 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:10:25 -0400
Subject: How to clean python interpreter's environment?
In-Reply-To: <PPqVc.176$C7.35@amsnews05.chello.com>
References: <PPqVc.176$C7.35@amsnews05.chello.com>
Message-ID: <jL6dnT9_ZqaFo7vcRVn-oQ@powergate.ca>

Rafal Kleger-Rudomin wrote:
> I'm looking for a command to reset interpreter's environment i.e. unload 
> all modules, delete variables etc.

If you're in the interactive interpreter, you should use
the following command: ^Z (on Windows), or ^D (Linux).

(Translation: there's no existing command that does what
you want.  Maybe describing your reason for wanting this will
let people suggest alternative solutions.)

-Peter


From NAIGIMSESRIMAIL at gims.com  Mon Aug 30 03:12:47 2004
From: NAIGIMSESRIMAIL at gims.com (GroupShield for Exchange (ESRIMAIL))
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:12:47 +0200
Subject: ALERT -  GroupShield ticket number OB38_1093849957_ESRIMAIL_3 was
	generated
Message-ID: <B06B8FEF47ACD7119E720040F428459104619C3B@ESRIMAIL>

Action Taken:
The message was blocked because of its subject.

To:
python-list at python.org <python-list at python.org>

From:
aleaxit at yahoo.com <aleaxit at yahoo.com>

Sent:
-1156188416,29658720

Subject:
Re: Testing automatically on import

Attachment Details:-

Attachment Name: N/A
File: Infected.msg
Infected? No
Repaired? No
Blocked? Yes
Deleted? No
Virus Name: 



	
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From http  Sat Aug 28 22:31:41 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 19:31:41 -0700
Subject: simple compiled languages?
References: <7xzn4fu188.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<_1bYc.855$2s.374@twister.nyroc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <7xbrguvfn6.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

"Cy Edmunds" <cedmunds at spamless.rochester.rr.com> writes:
> Turbo Pascal. I used to think it was great in 1983. :)

Yeah, they never released the source code though.  I should have added
that as a qualification.

BDS C was released, by the way, but it's written entirely in 8080
assembler.


From bulliver at badcomputer.no-ip.com  Tue Aug 24 20:01:42 2004
From: bulliver at badcomputer.no-ip.com (Darren Kirby)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:01:42 -0700
Subject: Book Recommendation
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.24.19.37.35.678632@scrpy.org>
References: <pan.2004.08.24.19.37.35.678632@scrpy.org>
Message-ID: <200408241701.51019.bulliver@badcomputer.no-ip.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On August 24, 2004 4:37 pm, Anthony Greene wrote:
> I'm new to programming entirely, and I'm simply looking for some insight,
> can you guys recommend some introductory documentation for me to read, and
> what I read, and, do concurrently why reading the primary "book" ou guys
> recommend. Thanks, and any advice is great appreciated.

I have found that "How to Think like a Computer Scientist: Python"
(http://ibiblio.org/obp/thinkCS/python/english/) is a very good resource. The 
book tries to explain basic programming concepts common to all languages 
using Python. 

If you are looking for a particular function/statement/module etc then the 
official docs are invaluable (http://docs.python.org/). Start with the 
tutorial and go from there.

As far as printed books, I have read "Learning Python" [O'Reilley] and 
"Practical Python" [Apress]. Both are very good.

But the most valuable resource for learning Python: The interactive 
interpreter.

- -- 
Part of the problem since 1976
http://badcomputer.no-ip.com
"...the number of UNIX installations has grown to 10, with more expected..."
- - Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson, June 1972 
Public key: http://keyserver.linux.it/pks/lookup?op=index&search=bulliver
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFBK9btOrzWcOwL7mwRAuV9AJ48d5/uXWfVutSYMxDMxonbEnDv9QCfRV+T
FQ+mey5KVfUXcmvrM/1+nsE=
=9JyM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From mwh at python.net  Fri Aug  6 07:46:26 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:46:26 GMT
Subject: PEP 263 status check
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com> <4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de>
	<10h5hgvpafm8a64@news.supernews.com> <41133C76.8040302@v.loewis.de>
	<10h6rklt3fa1690@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <m3hdrgsd4e.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

"John Roth" <newsgroups at jhrothjr.com> writes:

> If I understand you correctly, if I put, say, a mixture of
> Cyrillic, Hebrew, Arabic and Greek into a byte string
> literal, at run time that character string will contain the
> proper unicode at each character position?

Uh, I seem to be making a habit of labelling things you suggest
impossible :-)

> Or are you trying to say that the character string will
> contain the UTF-8 encoding of these characters; that
> is, if I do a subscript, I will get one character of the
> multi-byte encoding?

This is what happens, indeed.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  This is the fixed point problem again; since all some implementors
  do is implement the compiler and libraries for compiler writing, the
  language becomes good at writing compilers and not much else!
                                 -- Brian Rogoff, comp.lang.functional


From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug  9 14:03:49 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 09 Aug 2004 18:03:49 GMT
Subject: how many bytes in an int
References: <9ACRc.1523$bJ2.9739@news1.mts.net>
	<4116f8ee$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<FADRc.1532$bJ2.9871@news1.mts.net>
	<41170cd1$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<41171116$0$8079$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<41172C9A.2020301@jessikat.fsnet.co.uk>
	<41178bde$0$8077$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<cf83i7$182c@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>
	<41179cd2$0$8089$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<cf885p$im4@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <4117bc85$0$65563$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-09, Richard Brodie <R.Brodie at rl.ac.uk> wrote:
>"Grant Edwards" <grante at visi.com> wrote in message
>
>>By guessing formats and calculating sizes? Or is there a way to
>>ask for an N-byte integer that I missed?
>
> If you use '<' or '>' to force endianness you automatically
> get 'standard' sizes thrown in; or you can use '=' for native
> order. The standard sizes are specified in the struct module
> documentation.

Doh!  I don't know how many times I've read that without
realizing what it meant.  If you specify byte order explicitly
you _do_ get guaranteed lengths.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  ... I want FORTY-TWO
                                  at               TRYNEL FLOATATION SYSTEMS
                               visi.com            installed withinSIX AND A
                                                   HALF HOURS!!!


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 23 00:05:35 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 00:05:35 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2166.1093215326.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2166.1093215326.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <tuydneHfMf8L8bTcRVn-sQ@powergate.ca>

Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy) wrote:
> Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy) wrote:
>>Anyway, my vote is C1, C1, J2.
> Given how many people are being obstinate about their choice, I'm going
> to change my vote to:
> 
> C1, C1, C1
> 
> ;)

(Deliberately ignoring the wink...)

If there is someone motivated enough to implement C1, I
suggest that it isn't too late.  If Guido is presented
with J2 with an implementation, but knows that C1 was
supported strongly as well and has an implementation
imminent, I'm guessing it would lead him to consider
@pie, J2, and C1 all together on their merits (in his
view) and make a decision, perhaps a pending decision
if he then favours C1.

Without an imminent implementation C1 is likely dead in
the water, much as Timothy or Aahz or I or anyone else
would really prefer it.

-Peter


From geoff at variosoft.com  Sat Aug  7 16:44:48 2004
From: geoff at variosoft.com (Geoff Caplan)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 21:44:48 +0100
Subject: Compiling disutil modules on Windows
Message-ID: <7947683945.20040807214448@variosoft.com>

Hi folks,

Enjoying the process of picking up Python, but have come to an
unexpected grinding halt.

I am using the latest ActivePython release on Win2k. When I try to run

python setup.py install

on a disutil package, I get the error:

"Python was built with version 6 of Visual Studio, and extensions need
to be built with the same version of the compiler, but it isn't
installed."

Assuming this is correct, I find it mind-boggling that Active State
have chosen to use an expensive and discontinued commercial compiler!

I am aware that MS have released a free version of the latest Visual
Studio 7 compiler. I have installed this but disutils doesn't
recognise it. I can't find a free release of the MVC++ compiler: does
such a thing exist?

I assumed this would be a FAQ but can't find much in the archives. My
knowledge of C compiling is close to zero, so I am stuck. Any
advice would be much appreciated: this is a show-stopper.

------------------ 
Geoff Caplan
Vario Software Ltd
(+44) 121-515 1154



From belred1 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 23:51:40 2004
From: belred1 at yahoo.com (Bryan)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 03:51:40 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <fFzVc.56995$TI1.52506@attbi_s52>

Lucas Raab wrote:
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....
> 
> 

i'm 37... started programing on a TRS-80 Model I and III.  i also did a bit a programming on a VIC-20... brownie points 
for anyone who can remember how many text characters there was in one row... believe it or not, i can remember this :) 
eventhough i'm not OLD like some of those on this list, i did get to program BASIC with punch cards in my 8th grade math 
class.

bryan



From DesertLinux at netscape.net  Thu Aug 26 11:11:43 2004
From: DesertLinux at netscape.net (Byron)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:11:43 GMT
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
In-Reply-To: <is5qi0ph5mk5q910m0663fb5fka8qphct2@4ax.com>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<is5qi0ph5mk5q910m0663fb5fka8qphct2@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <P4nXc.13986$3O3.4785@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>

Rene Pijlman wrote:
> What are you replacing Unix with?


M$ Windows...   lol

Byron
---


From fred at acme.com  Sat Aug 21 16:26:48 2004
From: fred at acme.com (Fred)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 22:26:48 +0200
Subject: [newbie] Strange behavior of the re module
References: <2ejdi01btug5iskb4ipjpj7eaprd8i7vgm@4ax.com>
	<4126CFCC.8000609@zephyrfalcon.org>
	<ohkdi05et02gt0lkkg5hhfa5t7banb7bab@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2094.1093065202.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<86hei0prvp55iom91df23tffh04egefeig@4ax.com>
	<3toei056qnmk8nkesta47mncuh49asscht@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <jobfi0pld79vkqh3r2jm1ve844d0s60t23@4ax.com>

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 17:10:09 +0200, Fred <fred at acme.com> wrote:
>The script does run, but 

Guess I hit the Send button instead of Save ;-)

OK, for those interested, here's some working code, although it's
pretty slow (2mn30 when massaging a 200KB file on a P3 host):

--------------------
#The goal is to read an HTML file, extract whatever's between <body>
and </body>, read a template file, and insert what we extracted from
the first document:

import sys
import re

fp=open("./mydoc.html")
input = fp.read()
fp.close

#Needed if the document contains any backslash
input = input.replace('\\', '\\\\')
body = re.search('<body.*?>(.*?)</body>',input,re.IGNORECASE |
re.DOTALL)
if body:
	body = body.group(1)
else:
	body = "no body section found"

fp=open("./template.tpl")
output = fp.read()
fp.close

body = body + "</body>"
output = re.sub('</body>', body, output)
fp=open("./mynewfile.html","w")
fp.write(output)
fp.close

--------------------

Thx everyone for the hints
Fred.


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sat Aug 21 05:04:28 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 19:04:28 +1000
Subject: just ignore Guido's "rejections" [Re: Alternative decorator
	syntax decision]
In-Reply-To: <s6adnbDz3dsMx7vcRVn-hQ@comcast.com>
References: <wRhVc.23879$Mt5.1140091@wagner.videotron.net>	<mailman.2014.1092990953.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nPlVc.23904$Mt5.1223926@wagner.videotron.net>	<2uadnbqpMuI1krvcRVn-sg@comcast.com>
	<mailman.2077.1093031462.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<s6adnbDz3dsMx7vcRVn-hQ@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082102041dc3fa3c@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:09:54 -0500, Doug Holton <insert at spam.here> wrote:
> > Uh, what? No, you _can't_ ignore Guido's rejections - if you really decide
> > that you must have a form he's objected to, you need a _damn_ strong
> > argument to back that up. A "longtime community favorite" doesn't mean
> > a thing - this is language design, not American Idol - that a lot of people
> > like it makes no difference.
> 
> Um, yes.  The point is to determine what the *community* decides on, and
> *then* present that to Guido.  You're just helpping confound this second
> vote even more.  Some people aren't voting for what they think is best,
> but what they think Guido hasn't "rejected".  That is ridiculous.
> You'll end up with a syntax that nobody really ever liked most, even Guido.

You're misinterpreting what I said - I said that "if you want a form
he's rejected,
you need _damn_ strong arguments to back it up". I was replying to someone
saying that it's not necessary to pay attention to Guido's rejections of various
forms, and pointing out that in fact you _do_ need to pay attention to them. If
there's a community concensus for an already-rejected form, but no-one has
bothered addressing the existing concerns, then it's something of a waste of
time. 

I'm not _trying_ to "confound the vote". I'm trying to *help* the
process. If that's
not considered useful, I'm quite happy to just step away from the entire issue.


From skip at pobox.com  Tue Aug 24 12:20:59 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:20:59 -0500
Subject: Python is to C as letters are to words.
In-Reply-To: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E2B@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E2B@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <16683.27371.783890.782647@montanaro.dyndns.org>

    >> Subject: Python is to C as letters are to words.
    >> My nine word description of the python language.

    Robert> I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant:

    Robert> "Python is to C as words are to letters."

... and then privately wonder how well you scored on your SATs. ;-)

Skip


From noone at here.com  Sun Aug 15 19:28:22 2004
From: noone at here.com (M. Clift)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 00:28:22 +0100
Subject: Python secure?
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<ZKRTc.3710$bJ2.23892@news1.mts.net>
Message-ID: <cforh6$qiv$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>


Hi,

Thanks for your replies.

I know I have a long way to go until a produce anything that someone would
want to see the source code for. I do, however have an idea that I would not
want others to easily see the source code of. I just don't want to spend a
couple of years developing something that is not to be open source and by
choosing the wrong language have my efforts wasted.

My reason for choosing Python was one, that it is free, so if my efforts
amount to nothing I haven't wasted money, two, that it is supposed to be an
easy language when compared to some others and three, that my application
when finished, probably wouldn't sell for that much and not in any great
quantities for me to gamble spending something like ?1000 on Visual C /
++ this that and the other or whatever.

If others want to make software open source, I salute them. I don't wish to
do this however.

Of course anyone can gain access to the program with the right tools, I just
don't
want to hand it to them on a plate.

One thing has come up and that is when I spoke of secure I presumed that
compiled
C source code software was secure and I was asking how did python compare to
this.
>From the posts, however, it appears that you people in the know (seasoned
programmers)
speak of  the way the code is written / language as playing a large part in
making it secure,
as it can always be reverse engineered to some extent. I'm not too bothered
by making
the code difficult for anyone to understand, it's more that I want to make
it harder in the first
place and once it's compiled anyone who reverse engineers it (in most
countries?) is breaking the law.

Also without thinking earlier I hit the reply button instead of the reply to
group on OE - sorry
if anyone got unwanted post :  )

Thanks




From gandalf at geochemsource.com  Wed Aug  4 12:36:02 2004
From: gandalf at geochemsource.com (Gandalf)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 18:36:02 +0200
Subject: How to force a single number to be a tuple
In-Reply-To: <roy-6EC9F2.12271204082004@reader1.panix.com>
References: <mailman.1138.1091636758.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-6EC9F2.12271204082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <41111072.5040606@geochemsource.com>


>You're going to get a zillion responses to this one.
>
>The syntax is a bit funky:
>
>y = (2,)
>
Funky. However, very logical. You can also write:

(1,2,3,4,)

instead of

(1,2,3,4)

The syntax is very clear and logical. (As usual when working with 
python.) Try to add one comma for each element - that will do the stuff.
Most of the languages are not so straightforward - they forbid the last 
comma.
Python is the best. :-)




From brianc at temple.edu  Thu Aug 19 11:04:59 2004
From: brianc at temple.edu (brianc at temple.edu)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:04:59 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
Message-ID: <1a608e98.725b9b40.8235400@po-d.temple.edu>

20 on saturday...woo...party!

-Started doing HTML for school projects in 9th grade. 
-Program my TI-82 (basic?) to help me cheat in classes. 
--Failed 10th grade and dropped out of high school. 
-Messed around hacking computer games for a year. 
--Worked at a non-profit doing menial labor. 
--Showed I had aptitude for research. 
-Started with Excel and Access(SQL), writing macro's in VB. 
-Couldn't handle large enough datasets, started using MySQL.
-Started PHP and MySQL to enhance websites. 
-That didn't scale well enough for the large datasets I was
using, started using ZOPE. (If you live in MD, check this out,
  I designed/wrote the entire thing: www.marylandlantax.org)
-Fell in love with writing ZOPE Python scripts to handle logic.
-Wrote python scripts for data manipulation as well then (a
lot of MySQLdb module work)
-Got an internship this summer in computational chemistry at a
pharmaceutical company. (doing high throughput docking)
--Use python for just about every project.
--Before I came they were using csh and perl (so I've had to
become familiar with them, yuck) to call proprietary software
that often doesn't work as advertised. 
--Started to become a linux power user (awk, grep, sort, uniq,
etc...)

Now my question is... am I a programmer yet? or still just a
script kiddie? 

I've started to use classes regularly, so does that make it a
yes? However, everything I've written this summer has been 
take data-->do something to each record-->output data
That sounds like a script to me. 

However, I've created totally self contained "scripts" that
does stuff in minutes that other "professional" software takes
days to do. 

I'm not talking pushing a few SQL statements around like I
used to, now it's taking millions of possible drug candidate
molecules, breaking into chemically similiar sets, computing
comparison matices, doing fuzzy logic to decide which is the
best and in the end making sure the entire thing can run on a
128 processor linux cluster.

Am I a programmer yet? The only class I've ever taken dealing
with computers was 5 years ago on using CSS to ease webpage
design.

Oi, sorry, tomarrow's my last day at this internship, I could
probably be knocking out 3-4 more python programs by then.=-)
Without Python, I wouldn't know where the hell I would be. 

Thank you all!
-Brian

---- Original message ----
>Date: 19 Aug 2004 07:16:40 -0700
>From: steve at ferg.org (Stephen Ferg)  
>Subject: Re: age of Python programmers  
>To: python-list at python.org
>
>> Finally, someone in my cohort :-).  52.  
>
>I'm 58.  
>
>Started programming in 1979 -- 25 years ago.  Cut my teeth on
Pl/I. 
>Later COBOL, Pascal, Basic, Java.  For a while I liked REXX
very much,
>but it just ran out of steam.
>
>Been programming in Python for about 4 years.  
>
>Perhaps we have a two-hump demographic: youngsters in teens and
>twenties, and old farts in 50's.
>-- 
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From sjdevnull at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 31 00:57:02 2004
From: sjdevnull at yahoo.com (G. S. Hayes)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 21:57:02 -0700
Subject: "Content-Length" header
References: <ch07ui$edo@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <96c2e938.0408302057.61df147b@posting.google.com>

"Justin" <justin__devine at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<ch07ui$edo at odbk17.prod.google.com>...

> some webservers are CASE SENSITVE about their urls and some are not.

> unfortunately in order to standardize another part of my program I was

> converting all the urls to .lower()



Ouch.  Outside of the Windows world, most systems are case sensitive;
with respect to web servers, you'll find that many of the big ones
(e.g. Yahoo, Google) are.



The lesson to take away from this for the future is to never alter any
data without very good reason.  By doing so, you're throwing away
potentially useful information.  That means don't take the trailing
slash off of filenames, don't turn that "e with accent" into a plain
e, etc.  Certainly there are times to munge your data, but if there
isn't pressing reason to do so you're almost always best off keeping
it as pristine as possible--and often you want to store it in pristine
form and only munge it at the very time you HAVE to.



Something related to think about: if most users use only letters in
their passwords, making the passwords case-insensitive potentially
makes it take crackers HALF the time to crack a password by brute
force.  By making the passwords case-insensitive you've thrown away
information.  (though in practice, users who would use all letters are
unlikely to use mixed case; the point still remains, though)


From dd55 at cornell.edu  Thu Aug 19 11:42:50 2004
From: dd55 at cornell.edu (Darren Dale)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:42:50 -0400
Subject: My only complaint about Python
Message-ID: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>

I love the language. I love the community. My only complaint is that 
Python for Windows is built with Visual Studio.

It is too difficult to build python, or a module, from source. This is 
what open source is all about, isnt it? I even have a copy of visual 
studio, and I still cant build modules from source, because my academic 
copy is version 7. As a scientist funded by the NSF, I feel compelled to 
do all my work using free software (I feel compelled to use free 
software, regardless). And I feel compelled to contribute to the 
scientific capabilities of my favorite programming language. But this 
compiler issue is a big (and seemingly unnecessary) impediment. Will the 
BDFL ever split with Visual Studio?


From noone at here.com  Thu Aug 19 22:27:40 2004
From: noone at here.com (M. Clift)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 03:27:40 +0100
Subject: Rita Sue and Bob too
References: <cg3ksb$bg5$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<7x7jruwnyc.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <cg3nh6$1f3$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>

Thankyou to all of you, and so quick.

More for me to study :  )

All the best,

M




From ronaldoussoren at mac.com  Sun Aug  8 05:51:11 2004
From: ronaldoussoren at mac.com (Ronald Oussoren)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 11:51:11 +0200
Subject: decorators vs GIL
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed2040808011667ddee7b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>
	<mailman.1345.1091924284.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<8YudnZoJ4NdLEYjcRVn-jA@speakeasy.net>
	<0bidnfbR2_PZOIjcRVn-pA@giganews.com>
	<e69d3ed2040808011667ddee7b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7AEBFBED-E920-11D8-828E-000A95C77748@mac.com>


On 8-aug-04, at 10:16, Anthony Baxter wrote:

> On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 00:00:25 -0400, Istvan Albert
> <ialbert at mailblocks.com> wrote:
>> Just because someone sits down and codes it does not mean it
>> should be added to the language. Features are forever, you
>> cannot just can't eliminate them in the next version.
>
> The discussion on decorators has been going on for over 2 years
> on python-dev. There is a broad concensus that they're a useful
> feature, and are not _just_ being added for PyObjC.

I sure hope not :-) [*]. I just happened to dumb enough to volunteer a 
use-case for decorators in the last round of discussions, and somehow 
this got misunderstood :-(

I do believe decorators are generally useful, as shown by various 
examples shown on python-dev. The also happen to make live easier for 
users of PyObjC.

Ronald

[*] I'm one of the primairy developers for PyObjC, don't interpreted 
this a "-1" for decorators.



From egbert.list at hccnet.nl  Tue Aug  3 10:11:18 2004
From: egbert.list at hccnet.nl (Egbert Bouwman)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 16:11:18 +0200
Subject: PyGTK overload
In-Reply-To: <20040802132353.GB3648@grulic.org.ar>
References: <20040731091225.GA1365@mirk.lan>
	<20040802132353.GB3648@grulic.org.ar>
Message-ID: <20040803141118.GA2382@mirk.lan>

On Mon, Aug 02, 2004 at 10:23:53AM -0300, John Lenton wrote:
> have you tried, e.g., 'help gtk.Window' from the interpreter, or
> 'pydoc gtk.Window' from the commandline?
> 
No, I didn't, and I wonder why. It is very, very useful. Thanks.
egbert
-- 
Egbert Bouwman - Keizersgracht 197 II - 1016 DS  Amsterdam - 020 6257991
========================================================================


From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Aug 21 23:23:39 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (Simon John)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 20:23:39 -0700
Subject: Global config option - import issues again.....
In-Reply-To: <cg8eos$87v@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <cg93jr$ftq@odah37.prod.google.com>

Argh, it's not going to work anyway, I did a quick hack job and py2exe
only imports the config it was built with, and doesn't change it at
runtime.

I'll have to think of some other language file system - maybe
processing a text file instead of a python module.....?



From del at mjclift.freeserve.co.uk  Fri Aug 13 12:14:17 2004
From: del at mjclift.freeserve.co.uk (Calvin79)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 12:14:17 -0400
Subject: control direction of list
Message-ID: <2f2afc89dae36a5a8b23a0f3e623a333@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>

Hi All,

I was given this in an earlier post by Satchit.


import random

things = xrange(int(raw_input("choose no of things (1-8)? ")))

state = [None,None]

l = [] 

for x in things:
    tmp = random.choice('abcd')
    print state
    while tmp in state[0:2]:
        tmp = random.choice('abcd')
    print "choice ",x+1," is ", tmp        
    l.append(tmp) 

state[x%2] = tmp

print 1

Could someone help in showing me how to control it like this? That if 'a'
is choosen it can only be followed by say b or d, if 'd' is choosen it can
only be followed by c or b etc... I can see how to do this after the list
has been generated with if statements, but that is impractical. As it is
at the moment it stop two of the same letters being given one after
another or the same letter occurring with only one space interviening.

Thanks,

Calvin



From mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no  Mon Aug 23 16:49:09 2004
From: mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no (Magnus Lie Hetland)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:49:09 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Standard graph API?
References: <mailman.2228.1093282813.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrncikm25.e8q.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>

In article <mailman.2228.1093282813.5135.python-list at python.org>,
Robert Brewer wrote:
>> Is there any interest in a (hypothetical) standard graph API (with
>> 'graph' meaning a network, consisting of nodes and edges)?
>
>1) Yes!

:)

>2) Only if it's in C.

That would be up to the implementer. I'm only talking about defining
an API -- not the implementation. (Cf. the DB-API.)

[snip]
>3) It would have to accept arbitrary objects. No "make your class a
>subclass of GraphNode" garbage.

Of course. Signature-based polymorphism and protocols all the way :)

-- 
Magnus Lie Hetland     "Canned Bread: The greatest thing since sliced
http://hetland.org      bread!" [from a can in Spongebob Squarepants]


From rpw3 at rpw3.org  Sat Aug 28 01:21:22 2004
From: rpw3 at rpw3.org (Rob Warnock)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 00:21:22 -0500
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
Message-ID: <4PGdnfsOfdDPi63cRVn-tA@speakeasy.net>

Pascal Bourguignon  <spam at mouse-potato.com> wrote:
+---------------
| $ telnet xahlee.org 80;
| Trying 208.186.130.4...
| Connected to xahlee.org.
| Escape character is '^]'.
| GET / HTTP/1.1
| 
| HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request
| Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:35:52 GMT
| Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
|         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
+---------------

So are you complaining about the fact that his hosting provider
preloaded RedHat Fedora with Apache 2.0 for him? [A lot of them do,
these days, 'cuz it's much cheaper than preloading RedHat Enterprise.]

Or are you complaining about that perfectly correct error message
which pointed out that you omitted a required HTTP/1.1 header?  ;-}  ;-}

    % telnet xahlee.org 80
    Trying 208.186.130.4...
    Connected to xahlee.org.
    Escape character is '^]'.
    GET / HTTP/1.1
    Host: xahlee.org 

    HTTP/1.1 200 OK
    Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 05:16:44 GMT
    Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
    Last-Modified: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 10:36:38 GMT
    ETag: "c41bc-87b-a8715980"
    Accept-Ranges: bytes
    Content-Length: 2171
    Connection: close
    Content-Type: text/html

    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2 Final//EN">
    <html>
    <head>
    <title>Xah's Homepage</title>
    </head>
    <body  ... >
      ...[trimmed]...
    </body>
    </html>
    % 


-Rob

-----
Rob Warnock			<rpw3 at rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue			<URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403		(650)572-2607



From b.niemann at betternet.de  Fri Aug 27 04:17:16 2004
From: b.niemann at betternet.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:17:16 +0200
Subject: lambda ??
In-Reply-To: <6f402501.0408270000.31ad1455@posting.google.com>
References: <6f402501.0408270000.31ad1455@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgmqg9$kn1$1@online.de>

lambda returns the functions, thus can be used *in* an expression or 
function call, when a callable is required. This is often a useful shortcut.
But according to another thread 'lambda' is one candidate for things 
that are dropped in a future version of Python...

Michael Foord wrote:
> I'm starting to read through the developer works article on Functional
> Programming - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/library/l-prog.html
> 
> It starts by giving some basic examples using lambda. What I'm
> wondering is what's the actual difference between these two forms ?
> 
> pr = lambda s:s
> *and*
> def pr(s):
>     return s
> 
> Both bind the name 'pr' to a function object that does the same thing
> ?? I know that lambda functions can only be a single expression......
> 
> Is it just a basic example (and so in this case there is no
> difference).. or am I missing something. (What's the point of an
> 'anonymous' function... if you give a name to it !!).
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Fuzzy
> 
> http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlatnibots/pythonutils.html


From sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au  Sat Aug 14 06:22:56 2004
From: sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au (Sam Holden)
Date: 14 Aug 2004 10:22:56 GMT
Subject: PyQt(Qt): unexpected scrollbars in QCanvasView
References: <411dcfd0.649442281@news.compuserve.de>
Message-ID: <slrnchrq00.3tk.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:33:51 GMT, Konrad Koller <koko9991 at compuserve.de> wrote:
> For a card playing game I constructed a layout of 49 playing cards
> (size of each: x=71, y=96) which are arranged in a 7X7 matrix side by
> side. Accordingly the pysical size of the Canvas is x=71*7, y=96*7:
>
> in the main program:
> canvas=QCanvas(497,672)
>
> class Board(QCanvasView):
> 	def __init__(self,canvas,parent):
> 		QCanvasView.__init__(self,canvas,parent)
>
> but QCanvasView produces a layout with scrollbars in both directions.
> This is very annoying for the player because although the screen's
> size is more than appropriate for a total layout only some of the
> cards can be viewed without scrolling. The QScrollView documentation
> states that as default QScrollView shows a scrollbar when the content
> is too tall to fit and not else. What goes wrong?
> I am using PyQt 3.11 and Qt 3.3.1 under Linux.
> Thanks for any help.

I would guess it is using the viewable size with the scrollbars to determine
whether scrollbars are needed, rather than the size without them.

If you know the scrollbars aren't needed you can manually turn them off:

	self.setVScrollBarMode(QCanvasView.AlwaysOff)
	self.setHScrollBarMode(QCanvasView.AlwaysOff)


-- 
Sam Holden


From rkern at ucsd.edu  Tue Aug 31 23:51:15 2004
From: rkern at ucsd.edu (Robert Kern)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:51:15 -0700
Subject: XML documentation stinks - help?
In-Reply-To: <ch3fs2$4dc@odbk17.prod.google.com>
References: <ch3fs2$4dc@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <ch3gvl$mnd$1@news1.ucsd.edu>

Simon John wrote:

> I'm sure this must be a PEP, but could someone look at the PyXML
> documentation?
> 
> I'm trying to evaluate XML on Python (to eventually use it with
> XML-RPC) as apposed to Perl.
> 
> The problem is, I can't find a simple demo or documentation that just
> says how to create a parser object, and call the start/char/end event
> handlers.
> 
> With Perl's XML::Parser, it's that simple, you overload a
> start/char/end handler that gets called for every element, then you
> just create a hash of the data or whatever you want.
> 
> Most of the sites I Googled don't even exist anymore or have either
> incomplete documentation, out-of-date documentation, or have way
> over-complex examples that don't even explain why their importing
> modules or what they're doing.

Did the Python/XML HOWTO not meet your needs?

http://pyxml.sourceforge.net/topics/howto/xml-howto.html

Note Chapter 5 on the SAX API, which looks like what you describe. It 
seems to be fairly straightforward to me.

-- 
Robert Kern
rkern at ucsd.edu

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
  Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
   -- Richard Harter


From arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE  Fri Aug 20 12:13:26 2004
From: arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE (Arien Malec)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:13:26 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<Xns954AB8327A955arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.7>
	<wXfVc.4524$Jn5.3509@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Xns954B5EA3D3C9Carienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>

"Paul McGuire" <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> wrote in
news:wXfVc.4524$Jn5.3509 at fe1.texas.rr.com: 

> "Arien Malec" <arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE> wrote in message
> news:Xns954AB8327A955arienmalecyahoocom at 64.164.98.7...
>> M, any keyword option using "transform"
>>
>> (I care more about semantics than syntax)
> I can interpret "any keyword option using "transform"" to match J1,
> J2, or L.

C2, J2

But my metavote is: make the sematics really clear.

Arien


From domcio_ at poczta.onet.pl  Mon Aug  9 11:03:04 2004
From: domcio_ at poczta.onet.pl (Leszek)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 17:03:04 +0200
Subject: logging on https - question
Message-ID: <cf83sg$d6a$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>

Hi!

Does anybody knows how to log on https page ? .
This page has no html code for "name" and "password" (it uses servlets).

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-2">
<title>Bank of Warsaw</title>
</head>
<frameset rows="*,0" border=1 cellpading=0 cellspacing=0 frameborder=0
framespacing=0>
	<frame name="vibmain" src="servlet/login" scrolling=auto marginwidth=0
marginheight=0>
	<frame name="vibfoot" src="foot.html" scrolling=no>
</frameset>
</html>

I'm a client of that bank (so I have "name" and "password") and want to
automate checking my account.
I'm a starting programmer in python, and this problem is unfortunately too
complicated for me. Please, help me.

Leszek




From artur_spruce at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 10 09:22:48 2004
From: artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 06:22:48 -0700
Subject: Importance of C# (was Re: IronPython-0.6 is now available!)
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>	<ce9cp3$g39$1@bagan.srce.hr>	<5dydnZSDZaARoZXcRVn-ug@powergate.ca>	<gmint1-db3.ln1@lairds.us>	<9418be08.0407292114.129c856f@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1318.1091832179.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<aZOdnamc0Pt9k4ncRVn-sg@powergate.ca>
	<b840abf4.0408070120.2321e219@posting.google.com>
	<b840abf4.0408100228.6c9ead51@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <b840abf4.0408100522.73f86e60@posting.google.com>

artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR) wrote in message news:<b840abf4.0408100228.6c9ead51 at posting.google.com>...
> <snip>
> From another thread, with minor correction:
> 
> An interesting comparison, if you want to check it for yourself, is
> one between the unittest module and what is described on this page:
> 
> http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-building-a-unit-test-framework.html
> 
> Both approaches are based on commonly used features and coding style
> of their respective languages. I think this is good example of how
> language vs. language comparisons should be done.

And I forgot about the correction: How comparisons *could* be done is what I meant.

AdSR


From stnchris at xmission.com  Tue Aug 31 19:25:31 2004
From: stnchris at xmission.com (Steve Christensen)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 23:25:31 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xzn4gwgea.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7a1o.1a5d2q410jsn2kN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xisb4xnh5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7c1a.tfdm14p3hclcN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xd61benm9.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj82n3.1ylkr3nierngmN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgpj1l$i0f$06$1@news.t-online.com>
	<1gj8848.1bouuroizku25N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <slrncja27b.hho.stnchris@xmission.xmission.com>

In article <1gj8848.1bouuroizku25N%aleaxit at yahoo.com>, Alex Martelli wrote:
> Benjamin Niemann <pink at odahoda.de> wrote:
>    ...
>> Isn't the purpose of signatures that the importing program can trust the
>> module? If it's implemented as you suggest, an attacker could just 
>> inject path to an unsigned module into PYTHONPATH to fool a program. How
> 
> If the attacker is able to alter sys.path then it does not matter
> whether zipfiles are even considered -- the attacker could simply
> position a .pyc file early on the path.
> 
>> about something like
>> 
>> require_signature('mymodule')
>> import mymodule
> 
> This could be made to work, but only if _every_ module was so checked
> before importing it; otherwise, even just one unchecked module could
> easily subvert __import__ or other aspects of the import hook mechanism.
> 
> So, if you're considering this approach, it makes more sense to switch
> on module checking globally in an early phase of Python's startup
> (because Python starts importing modules pretty early indeed).  New
> conventions will also be needed for signature of .py, .pyc, .pyo, and
> .so (or other binary DLLoid files containing Python extensions).

It doesn't look like anyone has mentioned the Python Cryptography
Toolkit in this thread yet. (I have no affiliation with said project)

http://www.amk.ca/python/code/crypto.html

http://www.amk.ca/python/writing/pycrypt/pycrypt.html :

    7.2 Demo 2: secimp and sign 


    secimp demonstrates an application of the Toolkit that may be useful
    if Python is being used as an extension language for mail and Web
    clients: secure importing of Python modules. To use it, run sign.py
    in a directory with several compiled Python files present. It will
    use the key in testkey.py to generate digital signatures for the
    compiled Python code, and save both the signature and the code in a
    file ending in ".pys". Then run python -i secimp.py, and import a
    file by using secimport. 


    For example, if foo.pys was constructed, do secimport('foo'). The
    import should succeed. Now fire up Emacs or some other editor, and
    change a string in the code in foo.pys; you might try changing a
    letter in the name of a variable. When you run secimport('foo'), it
    should raise an exception reporting the failed signature. If you
    execute the statement __import__ = secimport, the secure import will
    be used by default for all future module imports. Alternatively, if
    you were creating a restricted execution environment using rexec.py,
    you could place secimport() in the restricted environment's
    namespace as the default import function. 



-Steve



From peufeu at free.fr  Thu Aug 26 07:53:25 2004
From: peufeu at free.fr (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Pierre-Fr=E9d=E9ric_Caillaud?=)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:53:25 +0200
Subject: Proposal for removing self
References: <T_7Xc.61360$Fg5.2281@attbi_s53>
	<5d83790c.0408252119.3e7da2a7@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <opsdb8nbiu1v4ijd@musicbox>


	There was the "with" keyword :

	with self:
		.member = something
		.member2 = .member3 + .member4

	etc... it is a bit more implicit because of the "with"... anyway.


From justin__devine at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 16 14:10:39 2004
From: justin__devine at hotmail.com (JDevine)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 11:10:39 -0700
Subject: Newbie 1st program
Message-ID: <f9d01b73.0408161010.1ba5e9e4@posting.google.com>

Hey.  I just finished my first python program.  In fact it is my first
program program at all.  I went from zero knowledge to the current
state in about 6 weeks.  Check it out at
http://gobblewin.sourceforge.net  I need help for the next stage of
development, I am also sure I could use a lot of advice on structure
etc.  My #1 priority is adding a threaded status bar to track
downloads to this program.  if you think you can help out let me know.

Thanks


From psXdaXsilva at esotericaX.ptX  Mon Aug 23 19:11:20 2004
From: psXdaXsilva at esotericaX.ptX (Paulo da Silva)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 00:11:20 +0100
Subject: "Socket" files?
In-Reply-To: <1093050493.502706@jubilee.esoterica.pt>
References: <1093035812.83612@jubilee.esoterica.pt>
	<mailman.2080.1093039543.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4126824a$0$566$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>
	<1093050493.502706@jubilee.esoterica.pt>
Message-ID: <1093302968.204485@iceman.esoterica.pt>

Paulo da Silva wrote:
> Irmen de Jong wrote:
> 
>> Marcos Dione wrote:
>>
> ...
> 
>>
...

>> from socket import *
>> sock=socket(AF_UNIX,SOCK_STREAM)
>> sock.bind("/tmp/mysocket")
> 
> ...
> This seems more logical. Besides there is also a "file" type
> "fifo" where I was using mkfifo.
> 
> I'll give it a try. Unfortunately I began to upgrade my Gentoo
> Linux and I am busy now.

OK. It works! I'll use mkfifo for "fifo" type and this for
"socket" type.
BTW, don't I need to close "sock.close()"? I don't want to
do anything with the socket except keeping it on disk.


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Tue Aug 24 14:33:41 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:33:41 GMT
Subject: Debunking Art - fraudster with python AI engine?
References: <4128f60b$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>
Message-ID: <412b8a01$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>

"Nick" <primz at bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:4128f60b$1 at news.unimelb.edu.au...
> Hi,
>
> I recently went to an art exhibition, and one of the artists had an AI
> engine projected onto a screen with a keyboard for visitors to type
> questions in with.
>
> Curiously, I asked the artist if he had written the engine. He claimed
> to have, but as far as I know, he has done no AI study, and only
> started programming python some months ago.
>
> Naturally, I find it hard to believe he has picked up on natural
> language processing and the other various skills required to write AI
> engines in that time. My guess is he has a python AIML interpreter,
> and he's found a default "brain" somewhere and tweaked it with some of
> his own stuff in order to pass it off as his own.
>
> The engine could answer all the usual questions, like "what is the
> meaning of life" (42), "what is your name", "how old are you" etc etc.
> It was just a chatterbot, so ELIZA or a deriviative is marked off the
> list. I am guessing probably an ALICE engine is behind it all. Does
> anyone know any questions or commands one can issue the bot which
> might identify it? It required all questions to start with a capital
> letter, if thats any help.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Nick.

Python is all about getting the proper module and using it. Do you believe
those that use wxPython or Tk to be frauds.

Tom

[ comp.ai is moderated.  To submit, just post and be patient, or if ]
[ that fails mail your article to <comp-ai at moderators.isc.org>, and ]
[ ask your news administrator to fix the problems with your system. ]


From shalabh at cafepy.com  Thu Aug 26 20:02:32 2004
From: shalabh at cafepy.com (Shalabh Chaturvedi)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:02:32 -0700
Subject: Static properties
In-Reply-To: <412DF4DD.4070302@berrs.net>
References: <412DF4DD.4070302@berrs.net>
Message-ID: <cgltjt$te6$1@sea.gmane.org>

Per Erik Stendahl wrote:

> Hello everyone,
> 
> Is it possible to define "static properties" in a class?

Yes and no, depending on what exactly you want :)

> Example:
> I have a class, Path, that wraps a lot of os.* and os.path.* functions 
> (and others), so I can write things like this:
> 
> x = Path('/usr/local/some/file')
> if x.IsFile:
>     contents = x.Read()
>     ...
> 
> Now, I would like to wrap os.getcwd(). I can do it like this:
> 
> class Path:
>     def CurrentDirectory():
>         return os.getcwd()
>     CurrentDirectory = staticmethod(CurrentDirectory)
> 
> pwd = Path.CurrentDirectory()
> 
> Question: Can I make CurrentDirectory a property? Just adding
> CurrentDirectory = property(CurrentDirectory) after the staticmethod 
> line didn't work, unsurprisingly. :-)

If you use raw descriptors and not properties, you can make computed 
class attributes:

class CurrentDirectoryDesc(object):
    def __get__(self, obj, cls=None):
       return os.getcwd()

class Path(object):
     CurrentDirectory = CurrentDirectoryDesc()

print Path.CurrentDirectory
print Path().CurrentDirectory

Note that:
- the classes are derived from object
- you cannot make a settable class attribute this way (you have to use a 
metaclass for that)
- if you subsequently assign Path.CurrentDirectory, you will overwrite 
the descriptor

HTH,
Shalabh



From jack at performancedrivers.com  Fri Aug 13 10:38:43 2004
From: jack at performancedrivers.com (Jack Diederich)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 10:38:43 -0400
Subject: {SPAM?} Decorators? Why have a special construct to support a
	pattern?
In-Reply-To: <200408120846.i7C8kirv006828@redpill.digitalventures.com.au>
References: <2WFSc.12148$Nl1.3243@fe1.columbus.rr.com>
	<200408120846.i7C8kirv006828@redpill.digitalventures.com.au>
Message-ID: <20040813143843.GP23725@performancedrivers.com>

On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 04:58:41PM +0800, Simon Wittber wrote:
> Decorators...
> 
> Why do we need a special construct to support a pattern? 
> 
> Do lots of people really use decorators that often?

I've said it in other places, writing

foo = mutate(foo)

is boilerplate.  I don't like boilerplate - it takes time and
is an extra step to get wrong.  It is also boilerplate somewhere
far away from the original definition which means it can easilly
be overlooked or forgotten.

-Jack


From John.Marshall at ec.gc.ca  Fri Aug  6 14:25:52 2004
From: John.Marshall at ec.gc.ca (John Marshall)
Date: 06 Aug 2004 18:25:52 +0000
Subject: elements of decorator syntax suggestions
In-Reply-To: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>
References: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1091816752.3439.33.camel@mango.cmc.ec.gc.ca>

On Fri, 2004-08-06 at 17:19, Steven Bethard wrote:
> I think one of the biggest reasons we're having such problems coming
> to any agreement on decorator syntax is that each proposal makes a
> number of syntax decisions, not just one.  For decorators, I see the
> following decisions that must be made:
> 

> 1) Indicator
> 
> 2) Location
> 
> 3) List notation
> 
> 4) Indentation

I think you have done a good job identifying and
isolating what the issues are regarding decorator
options. I think another thing that should perhaps
be made clearer (maybe for me only?) is to identify,
in order of importance/signfigance, the relationship
between decorators and the function:
1) is the function/method signature more important
   than the decorators (to the programmer)?
2) do the decorators belong or are affected by the function?
3) what other constructs in Python say/imply "look ahead
   for what I am about to affect/define"?

I understand that designing programming languages is
sometimes an art rather than a science (natural languages
a chock full of exceptions to the rule). But if the
priority of functions and decorators are established,
then I think this would help.

In response to my own questions above:
1) From my perspective, it seems that almost everybody
   would say that the function (class also) signature is
   more important than decorators. For example, how many
   people would say "I wonder where the classmethod
   function is?" Instead, people would say, "Where is my
   function xyz()". This seems to argue for the decorators
   following (somewhere) after the signature.

   Of course highlighting editors can help by marking off
   function names and parameters, but this argument only
   serves to confirm that the signature is the KEY thing
   programmers are interested in. Apart from aesthetics,
   which are subjective and could be debated endlessly, I
   cannot see how one could argue otherwise.

2) Perhaps I am not understanding fully. Can someone explain
   how decorators before the function logically belong outside
   of the function definition block if they are intended to
   affect the function? Are the decorators meant to affect
   something other than the function? It seems to me that
   in every other situation in Python (please correct me if I
   am wrong) blocks are the way we are able to identify what
   belongs to what (e.g., local variable to a function).
   The current decorator approach says to me, "I belong to
   the class" (if a class is involved), or "I belong to the
   module" (if no class is involved).

3) In a sense, this point is somewhat related to #2. Does
   Python support an implicit "I am doing something now, on
   something I haven't defined, but which is coming up next"
   anywhere else than the decorator before function
   construction? Even in classes, Python forces the use of
   self.xxx (explicit).
    
Hope this contributes to the discussion.

John



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 01:23:51 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 15:23:51 +1000
Subject: On consensus decision-making (was Re: Alternative decorator
	syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WEDONE?)
In-Reply-To: <tZOdnSEokOGcWrfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
References: <mailman.2153.1093185119.5135.python-list@python.org>	<z-adnRDpSpoTJrXcRVn-iw@powergate.ca>	<cgdbi8$5re$1@panix2.panix.com>
	<CsmdnSOL1aXP3LfcRVn-vg@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.2259.1093320891.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<tZOdnSEokOGcWrfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040823222319469328@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 00:43:38 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> Until very recently, there appeared to be a resounding "NO"
> from the BDFL himself to any thought that C1 might ever
> be accepted.  It was rejected early and rather explicitly,
> if I recall correctly.

Yes.

> Given that, it shouldn't be surprising in the least that no one
> has put up their hand to do something which would appear to
> be a waste of time.

This simply means that any arguments in favour of this form would need
to be strong, _and_ take into account (and refute) Guido's reasons for
originally rejecting this form.

> Has anything really changed?  Would it now be correct to say
> that C1 has a serious chance of being accepted if someone would
> just update the implementation to the state and quality (?) of
> the other two?

I'm just confused that a lot of people seem to think that voting in
favour of C1 would achieve anything. Without a decent set of arguments
(such as the impressive piece Robert wrote on the J2 form), and an
implementation, voting for a form such as C1 is *entirely* pointless.

(Of course, there's also my cunning plot to use this particular issue
to get a couple more people involved in Python's development process -
we now have at least one person who's obviously a good person to write
up future PEPs, and another who's now delved into Python's innards in
a non-trivial way.... moohahaha)


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Tue Aug 17 13:30:31 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:30:31 -0400
Subject: Flython
In-Reply-To: <m33c2ln1yc.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
References: <slrnchq8lg.q3d.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
	<mailman.1644.1092461737.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408140153500.21775-100000@ccc2.wpi.edu>
	<m3llgfmhca.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408161041590.8576-100000@ccc3.wpi.edu>
	<m33c2ln1yc.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408171326080.3724-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Michael Hudson wrote:

> You'll almost certainly have a better time using the output of
> Lib/compiler/transformer.py.

Oh, wow!  I didn't even notice that compiler could do that.  Thanks!  
These trees look much more manageable than the tuples parser spits out...
time for a code rewrite!



From jjl at pobox.com  Thu Aug 12 16:32:55 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 21:32:55 +0100
Subject: Decorator "platform"
References: <2nsoofF49frcU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <87zn50nll4.fsf@pobox.com>

Reinhold Birkenfeld <reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net> writes:
[...]
> What I have in mind is a sort of "decorator library" where everyone who
> has written a useful function of that kind can share it with others,
[...]

God help us. <0.5 wink>


John


From eesun at free.fr  Tue Aug  3 11:43:45 2004
From: eesun at free.fr (eesun)
Date: 3 Aug 2004 08:43:45 -0700
Subject: dislin interfaced with tkinter
Message-ID: <34c9b4fa.0408030743.594417f9@posting.google.com>

Hi, 

I've downloaded the dislin package for the scientific plotting. And I
have already created the application window with Tkinter (menu,
canvas, status bar..). I want to integrate the Dislin plotting into
the Tkinter application. For ex: show the dislin result on the Tkinter
Canvas. Anyone can help?

thx


From rubyguru at hotmail.com  Wed Aug  4 15:11:08 2004
From: rubyguru at hotmail.com (Chris Dutton)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 19:11:08 GMT
Subject: Does python support multi prototype.
In-Reply-To: <slrnch1o4j.nv3.jgrahn-nntq@frailea.sa.invalid>
References: <2natmnFv86rjU1@uni-berlin.de> <HGXPc.1098$M95.865@pd7tw1no>
	<slrnch1o4j.nv3.jgrahn-nntq@frailea.sa.invalid>
Message-ID: <gxaQc.11847$J06.3545@pd7tw2no>

Jorgen Grahn wrote:

> On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 02:17:11 GMT, Chris Dutton <rubyguru at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>angel wrote:
>>>Does python support it?
>>
>>No, but it doesn't have to.  The type of a function's arguments are not 
>>statically limited.
> 
> ...
> 
> Yes, but that's not as elegant in cases where the arguments' types has to
> trigger very different processing. I can even imagine situations where
> foo(S) and a foo(T) do completely different things, and still 'foo' is the
> best name for both of them.

So use the existing control flow structures to decide which set of code 
to execute at runtime.  It's certainly not going to be as efficient as a 
compiled language which can make the distinction at compile time, but 
it's easily as elegant a way of thinking about the problem.

def foo(bar):
    if (isinstance(bar, int)):
       ...
    elif (isinstance(bar, str)):
       ...
    else
       ...

Now, if only Python had a smart "switch" style construct like Ruby or 
Groovy, since "isinstance" hurts my eyes.  :-)

def foo(bar)
    case bar
       when Integer
          ...
       when String
          ...
       else
          ...
    end
end


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 02:57:47 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 16:57:47 +1000
Subject: On consensus decision-making (was Re: Alternative
	decoratorsyntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WEDONE?)
In-Reply-To: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E4F@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E4F@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082323577463b8a9@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 23:06:08 -0700, Robert Brewer <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote:
> Funny, I was just thinking today about Brett, trying to hand off the
> summaries. But I concluded I'm 6 months to a year away from that in
> terms of being able to _accurately_ decipher the majority of pydev
> discussions. So your plot is working somewhat... ;)

You'd probably be suprised at how easy it is to pick up most things in
python-dev. One nice thing about the sanity of CPython's
implementation (e.g. the much-maligned GIL) is that it's remarkably
easy to follow. In addition, if there's things you're unsure about,
most python-devver's are amenable to answering emails saying "um, what
does this mean?"

I think Brett has admitted that doing the python-dev summaries has
resulted in his brain now being full of details about Python's
internals, which he didn't previously have. Of course, it's also
reduced him to a trembling wreck of a man, but hey, nothing's free...


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Fri Aug  6 11:32:52 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 08:32:52 -0700
Subject: Getting around the GIL with POSH
References: <2nhgq0Fvu3qU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <1091806765.919780@news.commspeed.net>


"Jon Perez" <jbperez808 at wahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2nhgq0Fvu3qU1 at uni-berlin.de...
> POSH, found at poshmodule.sourceforge.net , lets you share
> Python objects across processes like you would among threads
> and not have to resort to IPC mechanisms.
>
> Because separate processes do not share the GIL, this allows
> them to be scheduled on multiple CPUs.
>
> Is anyone out there using POSH and is it reliable enough for
> production use?  Any plans to incorporate it into the Python
> distribution?

You shoul have a look at Pyro (Python Remote Objects) at
http://pyro.sourceforge.net/index.html

"It is an advanced and powerful Distributed Object Technology system written
entirely in Python"

sounds like what you need.

Tom




From FBatista at uniFON.com.ar  Fri Aug 27 09:00:06 2004
From: FBatista at uniFON.com.ar (Batista, Facundo)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:00:06 -0300
Subject: about presicion
Message-ID: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C787E@escpl.tcp.com.ar>

[alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com]


#- I was wondering if it was posible to get very good presicion. I mean
#- like to the to the 100 th or more decimal place. if so how?

In Python 2.4 you'll have the Decimal module:


Python 2.4a2 (#55, Aug  5 2004, 11:42:43) [MSC v.1310 32 bit (Intel)] on
win32
...
>>> import decimal
>>> decimal.getcontext().prec=100
>>> d = decimal.Decimal(2)
>>> d.sqrt()
Decimal("1.41421356237309504880168872420969807856967187537694807317667973799
0732478462107038850387534327641573")

Enjoy it.

.	Facundo


From fumanchu at amor.org  Fri Aug 27 09:16:37 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 06:16:37 -0700
Subject: Proposal for removing self
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E90@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Alex Martelli wrote:
> Coming back
> to c.l.py after months of absence, and finding that, as usual, instead
> of trying to use Python to best effect, people with mediocre Python
> mastery keep trying to change Python (generally trying to 
> break some of
> the best aspects of it, because they don't understand enough Python to
> see why they're good) was of course depressing -- I'm proud of myself
> for reacting constructively rather than lashing out or going 
> away again at once.

So are we, Alex. :) I, for one, am glad you're back! I always find your
commentary illuminating and engaging.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From bbands at yahoo.com  Sun Aug  1 11:11:52 2004
From: bbands at yahoo.com (BBands)
Date: 1 Aug 2004 08:11:52 -0700
Subject: Fuzzy Logic
Message-ID: <79780d4f.0408010711.75df6f83@posting.google.com>

Does anyone know of any fuzzy logic work done in Python?

The only thing I have found is logic.py, which has gone missing from
the Vaults of Parnassus and the original site, 
http://www.ourobourus.com/logic.py.

    --jab


From davidf at sjsoft.com  Mon Aug  2 07:09:58 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 13:09:58 +0200
Subject: Sending Mail via Extended MAPI
In-Reply-To: <87llh18dqt.fsf@pobox.com>
References: <cedl93$puv$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net> <87llh18dqt.fsf@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <cel7e7$9q4$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

John J. Lee wrote:
> David Fraser <davidf at sjsoft.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>Does anyone have an idea how to send mail via the win32 mapi
>>extensions that come with pywin32? It's very easy using Simple MAPI,
>>but unfortunately brings up dialog boxes inn various versions of
>>Outlook with security patches etc. It doesn't seem obvious from any
>>documentation and the spambayes classes (which are cited as a good
> 
> [...]
> 
> I think that's the idea.  Microsoft's plan to is to make the API for
> sending mail without user intervention so incredibly complicated and
> pulverisingly dull that the even the virus authors can't be
> bothered...
> 

Which is of course a little frustrating :-)

> IIRC, there's a commercial COM server that wraps up Extended MAPI and
> exposes a clone of the Simple MAPI interface.

I think this must be Outlook Redemption ... anyway we'll try and see if 
we can implement what we need without them :-)

Thanks
David


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 06:52:02 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:52:02 +0200
Subject: How to generically transform a list?
References: <opsdcguchn35jo5o@news.gmane.org>
	<mailman.2505.1093589841.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<eTBXc.226897$095.11575327@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<M6DXc.226964$MK4.11316561@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
Message-ID: <1gj6gwy.1bqwzd6zhg7k3N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Roel Schroeven <rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm> wrote:

> Roel Schroeven wrote:
> 
> >> Just out of pure curiosity: Is there a langue that allows vertical and
> >> horizontal slicing and dicing with the same built-in pattern?
> > 
> > 
> > You can do it (sorta) in Python: use zip to turn the columns into rows
> > and vice-versa, apply the slicing, than zip back:
> > 
> >  >>> l = [['a', 1, 11, 'aa'], ['b', 2, 22, 'bb'], ['c', 3, 33, 'cc']]
> >  >>> zip(*(zip(*l)[2:0:-1]))
> > [(11, 1), (22, 2), (33, 3)]
> 
> You end up with a list of tuples instead of a list of lists though.

...so you map(list, zip(*(zip(*l)[2:0:-1]))) if you're really keen on
this approach.  Personally, I find it a disaster.


Alex
 


From davids at webmaster.com  Sat Aug 28 00:50:11 2004
From: davids at webmaster.com (David Schwartz)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 21:50:11 -0700
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4dyXc.25792$Ot3.22106@twister.nyc.rr.com>
	<878yc0ucyl.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<cgnr8l$egb$1@nntp.webmaster.com>
	<20040827135423.154$1T@newsreader.com>
Message-ID: <cgp2u4$5nk$1@nntp.webmaster.com>


<ctcgag at hotmail.com> wrote in message 
news:20040827135423.154$1T at newsreader.com...

> "David Schwartz" <davids at webmaster.com> wrote:

>>     I don't follow you at all. I think you'll find the most useful,
>> meaningful complaints about, say, a Ford Explorer from the people who
>> drive one every day.

> And if they continue to drive one everyday, perhaps you would conclude
> that their complaints are insincere.

    That's a load of crap.

    DS




From me at privacy.net  Mon Aug  2 05:11:48 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Duncan Booth)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 09:11:48 GMT
Subject: Microbenchmark: Summing over array of doubles
References: <4d642979.0407312049.7a8aecab@posting.google.com>
	<Xns95389B9391F5Eduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011840050.21160-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <Xns95395FD0EF85duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>

Christopher T King <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote in
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011840050.21160-100000 at ccc4.wpi.edu: 

> On 1 Aug 2004, Duncan Booth wrote:
> 
>> I just had a brief look at the code you posted. Are you not concerned
>> about accuracy in any of your calculations? Summing a 10 million
>> element array by simply accumulating each element into a running
>> total is guaranteed to give a lousy result.
> 
> Lousy or not, I believe that's how numarray is implemented internally,
> so at least all the benchmarks are the same.  If you want accuracy
> summing that many numbers, you're going to have to do it in software
> (likely by summing each mantissa bit individually and reconstructing
> the float afterward), so it will be abysmally slow (obviously not what
> the OP wants).
> 

My point being that speed isn't everything. Most applications doing large 
floating point calculations should be concerned about accuracy, and how not 
to add up a large array of floating point numbers was one of the first 
things I was taught in computer science classes. The fastest way to sum 10 
million numbers (albeit at some considerable loss of accuracy):

    	return 0


The 'correct' way to sum a large array of floats is, of course, to 
calculate a lot of partial sums and sum them. For example, naively, we 
might say that to sum the array we sum the first half, sum the second half 
and add the results together. This definition being recursive ensures that 
if the inputs are all of a similar size then all the intermediate 
calculations involve summing similarly sized values. A more sophisticated 
technique might also try to handle the case where not all values are a 
similar size.

If you are worried about speed, then calculating partial sums is also the 
way to go: the naive technique used by the original poster leaves no scope 
for parallel calculation. It should be possible to write a slightly more 
complex loop in the C version that runs a lot faster on systems that are 
capable of performing multiple floating point instructions in parallel.


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 31 08:32:58 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 08:32:58 -0400
Subject: use win32 COM in python
In-Reply-To: <ch0ie8$8bg$1@news.yaako.com>
References: <cguo6j$j67$1@news.yaako.com> <ch0ie8$8bg$1@news.yaako.com>
Message-ID: <tridncXml8Bm8qncRVn-oQ@powergate.ca>

Lin Jingxian wrote:
> thanks, Dave and Peter
> I can use pythoncom, but since there isn't pointer in python (is it?), I
> dont know how to call the : int read(unsigned char* buf, int length) method
> in python.what unsigned char* buf should be represented in python?thanks
> again.

I think Miki's answer is probably on target for doing that from
pythoncom.  That is, don't, but use the Dispatch interface instead.

 From ctypes, however, you can create special objects which ctypes can
use as pointer types.  For example, byref(sometype) is roughly
equivalent to "sometype * xxx" when using ctypes.

-Peter


From luismg at gmx.net  Sun Aug 22 18:50:21 2004
From: luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 15:50:21 -0700
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<278de0e.0408220636.3ee25f9d@posting.google.com>
	<mYGdnT5L6pqMJ7XcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <278de0e.0408221450.324e8178@posting.google.com>

> Statements like that serve only to demonstrate the narrowness of
> thought of the writer.

Excuse me?
It seems that you're missing the point. There's nothing wrong with my
way of thinking, which is not "narrow" at all.
I love Python. It's an excellent, fun, clear, well designed language
and it is fast enough for 90% of the cases. But you can't deny that
for some problem domains, it is slow. Very slow.

The fact that some programmers can resort to c to speed up parts of
the code is not convincing to me. I don't like C, I like python, and
I'd love to see it performing at much better speed.

I didn't want to start a silly thread to discuss wether python is slow
or not. It is. Period.
But it doesn't mean that it is useles or bad. Again, I think Python
rocks, but I want more, and as far as I know, many people want more.

That's why I wanted to know more about all those exciting projects
aimed to improve python's performance.
I love to read comments from people like Armin Rigo, who says that
Psyco is the first step for world dominance of python (I love that
attitude!).
Or people like Mike Salib, who says that Python will be faster than
C/C++ in two years, thanks to research on type inference and compiler
improvements.

All the other comments on this thread, regarding the main limitation
for python's acceptance are true, but speed is critical, and this is
were all efforts should be concentrated.

So my intention when I started this thread, was to learn more about
these projects, read other oppinions, get some news, etc... I didn't
mean to start a a nonsense discussion!


From bokr at oz.net  Fri Aug  6 14:58:00 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 18:58:00 GMT
Subject: Confused about pep 318
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>
	<ceu7ue$n3u$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<mailman.1244.1091758578.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cf0kbo$s88$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 21:16:00 -0500, Skip Montanaro <skip at pobox.com> wrote:

>
>    Bengt> I too am very much against wasting '@' on @decorator!
>
>We could just switch completely to Unicode.  Then we'd have all sorts of
>punctuation characters available.  How about
>
>    # -*- coding: utf-8 -*-
>    \xe2\x98\xbadecorator
>    def f():
>        pass
>
>?
Yes, but then plain ascii editors would have an obscurity problem.
If you really want this context-sensitive function-stacking operator
whose stack is popped and applied to the result of the next def until
the stack is empty (is this effectively the rule?), why not just
leave it ascii encoded ;-)

     :)decorator
     def f():
         pass

Hm, perhaps '@' could be the beginning of a hidden Forth syntax for python? ;-)

BTW, can anything (blank lines, comments, assignment statements) come between the
@decorator line and the function def? Can the decorator line be conditional? E.g.,
    if __debug__: @add_my_debug_printouts
    def foo(x,y): return x+y

BTW2, is @something a purely a prefixed extension of def syntax, or is it
a dynamic, code-generating operator that really does stack functions to
be used when the very next function-definition code (not the callable function code)
executes? If so, is @(expression) acceptable? I.e., could you write (untested ;-)
    @(lambda f: (lambda *args,**kwargs: long(f(*args,**kwargs))))
instead of
    @force_long_result
? I don't guess so ;-)

Could you use a module attribute expression?

    @mydecorators.force_long_result

Why not? (I don't have a copy of 2.4 to play with (nor the time :-( )

But then, why an internal single anonymous stack to pop decorator functions from?
Why not use a named function source, that a programmer can control? That has an API
or protocol(usage?), so a programmer-defined object can override the functionality?

But if you have a named stack object, it could as well have ordinary methods for stack
access, and we wouldn't need a special stack-function-for-a-narrowly-defined-purpose
operator spelled '@' ;-) (BTW, does '@' stack functions or function names, actually?
I.e., does some_name have to be bound prior to the '@some_name' line? If names are
stacked, is a dotted name permissible? Probably not, right ;-)

You could define a stack object that would push args of __call__ so your syntax could be
    decorate = __builtins__.metafunctions.push # say you prefer 'decorate' as name
    ...   
    decorate(accepts_ints, returns_longs)
    def foo(x,y): return long(x+y)
or
    decorate(accepts_ints)
    decorate(returns_longs)
    def foo(x,y): return long(x+y)

You'd just have to arrange for def to use metafunctions.pop (hence overridable, if
you want to shadow the standard metafunctions object in builtins) to get decorator
functions. Of course a user-friendly alias for metafunctions.push could also exist
in builtins. That's just a matter of choosing a name ("at_sign" ;-)

(See other post for other angles on using a builtin object (and associated class)
-- though the idea mix is evolving, and there are no warranties express or implied
against contradiction or for version compatibility among them ;-)

I know I have thrown out too many ideas to make a forceful pitch for any one of them.
I just want to illustrate that there may yet be unthought-of alternatives to '@' that
are more object-oriented and general, with potentially not that different a syntax
in actual use, I.e.,
    AT(decorator) # assuming you like 'AT' as an alias
vs
    @decorator

My USD.02

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From mwh at python.net  Sat Aug  7 10:09:32 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 14:09:32 GMT
Subject: static python build?
References: <mailman.1273.1091799407.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<m38ycss7t2.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
	<mailman.1292.1091810978.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m3d623qbtw.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

mudd at vex.net writes:

> Yes, thanks!, it was easy.  I just edited Modules/Setup as follows:
> 
> (1) Changed the commented *shared* line to the *static* line (see below).
> 
> (2) Uncommented the modules (math, time, array) that I wanted incorporated
> into the static libpython.a library.
> 
> (3) Added lines for a couple other modules (strop & _random) that
> previously weren't listed in the Setup file.

I'm a bit surprised strop wasn't in there.  _random probably should
be, too.  File a bug on SF?

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  <washort> glyph: you're evil, too
  <glyph> washort: I try
  <washort> not the good kind of evil
  <washort> the other kind                      -- from Twisted.Quotes


From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Aug 26 02:06:11 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:06:11 +0200
Subject: MSI Installer Problem: can't install 2.4a2 on new install of
 Win2kSP2
In-Reply-To: <vnipi0ldsgchqqiti1q19qtd5d70ju17p0@4ax.com>
References: <vnipi0ldsgchqqiti1q19qtd5d70ju17p0@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <412d7dcd$0$26184$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

Richard Hanson wrote:
>   This installation package cannot be installed by the
>   Windows Installer service. You must install a
>   Windows service pack that contains a newer version
>   of the Windows Installer service.

The problem is what this message says: you need a newer
version of Windows installer.

 > Also, isn't there the general feeling that Win2kSP2 is about as good
 > as Windows gets (got)?

W2k itself is fine. However, W2k ships with Installer 1.1, W2kSP2
updates that to Installer 1.11, W2kSP3 to Installer 2.0. The Python
MSI file requires Installer 2.0.

http://www.python.org/2.4/

says

# [...] double-click python-2.4a2.msi to find out if your machine
# supports MSI. If it doesn't, you'll need to install Microsoft
# Installer first. Many other packages (such as Word and Office) also
# include MSI, so you may already have it on your system. If not, you
# can download it freely from Microsoft for Windows 95, 98 and Me and
# for Windows NT 4.0 and 2000

You can find the download links on that page.

If it used to work before the reinstallation, you either had a different
service pack installed before, or some other software you had installed
did a silent installation of a new installer release (such as Office
2k).

Regards,
Martin


From thats at it.com  Mon Aug 23 19:46:40 2004
From: thats at it.com (Baalbek)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 01:46:40 +0200
Subject: Python future performance and speed
In-Reply-To: <cgdb8m$1bs$1@panix2.panix.com>
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<278de0e.0408220636.3ee25f9d@posting.google.com>
	<mYGdnT5L6pqMJ7XcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
	<278de0e.0408221450.324e8178@posting.google.com>
	<cgdb8m$1bs$1@panix2.panix.com>
Message-ID: <2lvWc.2843$WW4.34157@news4.e.nsc.no>

Aahz wrote:

> In article <278de0e.0408221450.324e8178 at posting.google.com>,
> Neuruss <luismg at gmx.net> wrote:

>>I didn't want to start a silly thread to discuss wether python is slow
>>or not. It is. Period.
> 
> 
> Nope.  Speed is relative.  Is a car slow?  Depends whether you're trying
> to go five feet, five miles, fifty miles, five hundred miles, or five
> thousand miles -- and it also depends on the alternatives available for
> traversing that distance.  Repeatedly claiming that Python is slow as an
> absolute statement only shows your ignorance and unwillingness to listen
> to other people.

Python on today's machines probably runs a lot faster than C programs 
did on machines 20 years ago (or even 10 years ago).

Baalbek



From davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu  Fri Aug 13 00:38:14 2004
From: davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu (David Pokorny)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 21:38:14 -0700
Subject: Fine thread control, Run only n bytecodes
References: <U5adnciwe59CumXdRVn-jg@lmi.net>
	<7x7jsynifw.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <jKOdnV7AKdaP24HcRVn-hQ@lmi.net>


"Paul Rubin" <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> wrote in message
news:7x7jsynifw.fsf at ruckus.brouhaha.com...
> "David Pokorny" <davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu> writes:
> > I'd like to be able to take a function or other chunk of code (that
someone
> > else has written), run it for, say 50 byte codes, and then return
control
> > back to my program/controlling thread until my program/controlling
thread
> > indicates that it wants to run the next 50 bytes codes of the foreign
> > program, etc...
>
> This subject has come up before.  If you're trying to timeshare, I
> don't think that's really going to help you.  Some bytecodes can take
> unbounded amounts of time to execute.

As far as I know, the worst problem is with the likes of

BUILD_LIST
BUILD_TUPLE
UNPACK_SEQUENCE
...

For those who are interested, I've found the most promising solution so far:
a Python metacircular VM (written in Python).
http://www.codespeak.net/pipermail/pypy-dev/2003q1/000048.html




From paolo_veronelli at yahoo.it  Thu Aug 12 15:52:38 2004
From: paolo_veronelli at yahoo.it (paolo veronelli)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 21:52:38 +0200
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
In-Reply-To: <EvadnaOm3bItNIbcRVn-iQ@powergate.ca>
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1566.1092328555.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<EvadnaOm3bItNIbcRVn-iQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <opscmxh0xldgjose@mail.yahoo.it>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:32:32 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:

> paolo veronelli wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:40:32 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> 
>> wrote:

>> class Klass:
>>     def meth0(x):
>>         return x
>>     mutate meth0:
>>         staticmethod
>>
>> mutate Klass.meth0:
>>     debugged
>>
>> reads good to me.
>
> This has the disadvantage of repeating the function name.  I know
> you call it an advantage...  but arguably the biggest part of
> the whole decorator "argument" revolves around whether or not
> it's critical to put the decorator right up above the "def" so
> that it can't be missed.  If the method you describe above was
> deemed acceptable, then I think we'd be sticking with the
> current approach that just reads "func = decorate(func)".

This 'old' method doesn't allow to prepone it,I think a statement was the 
way to allow this ,but why impone it?

class Klass:
	mutate meth0:
		staticmethod
	def meth0(x):
		return x

is acceptable but accept everywhere statements like

@staticmethod Klass.meth0

is the minimum on the pythonic way.
	
	Paolino


-- 
....lotta dura  per la verdura



From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Mon Aug 16 11:54:13 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:54:13 GMT
Subject: PEP 318 decorators are not Decorators
References: <Xns9543CB4CF5EDFarienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.7>
	<cfhsri$a1q$1@news1.wdf.sap-ag.de>
	<Xns95446284A8DA2arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.29>
	<mailman.1625.1092418237.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Xns9544A70A17365arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>
	<mailman.1662.1092523102.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Xns9546756484138arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.29>
Message-ID: <v1l1i0l93rknkkh6q2fr8oqkiskrjt5vh0@4ax.com>

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 18:29:52 GMT, Arien Malec
<arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE> wrote:

>Skip Montanaro <skip at pobox.com> wrote in
>news:mailman.1662.1092523102.5135.python-list at python.org: 
>
>> 
>>     Arien> 3) Won't most programmers think GoF decorators before
>>     Arien> compiler syntax tree decorators?
>> 
>>     Skip> Not if they are unfamiliar with the GoF patterns (myself
>>     included). 
>> 
>>     Arien> Google: [~62,000 : ~130 mentions of each sort of decorator]
>> 
>>     ...
>> 
>> BFD.... The thing is, just because in a verbal Rohrschach
>> test you think "GoF" when someone says "decorator" doesn't mean
>> everybody else will (or should).

Correct.  I would think simply that "decorate" would be descriptive in
its own right. 

As obscure as the GOF reference might be to some, the alternative
references justifying the naming seem to be off the map in terms of
obscurity.  So let's assume a blank slate.  And all we want is the
word to be descriptive.

And it seems to me the naming is in fact descriptive - but of the
syntax, not the functionality.

Which is OK, I guess, if we accept it as that.

 As there are already a number of compromises being made in the
addition of this to the language, I just think of this as one more.

>
>Clearly, Python can choose any name for the auto-function-transformation 
>syntax in question, but it's rather willfully confusing to choose a name 
>that's heavily identified with a profoundly different semantics that's 
>superficially similar in intent.

Again, a little different if we think of it as describing the syntax,
not the functionality.  Yes the ambiguity, I agree, is bad.  And yes,
I agree, willful, to an extent. Or at least willful to the extent that
there is little interest in truly justifying the choice of
terminology, and specifung whether we are referencing the syntax or
the functionality in the choice of the terminology. 

This ambiguity is to the essence of decorators, maybe both as syntax
and as functionailty. But it is not the first time I have issues with
python-dev folks using ambiguity as gloss.

Art

 



From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Sun Aug  1 19:54:58 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 19:54:58 -0400
Subject: Microbenchmark: Summing over array of doubles
In-Reply-To: <4d642979.0407312049.7a8aecab@posting.google.com>
References: <4d642979.0407312049.7a8aecab@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011847510.21160-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>

On 31 Jul 2004, Yaroslav Bulatov wrote:

> I'm doing intensive computation on arrays in Python, so if you have
> suggestions on Python/C solutions that could push the envelope, please
> let me know.

If you're doing mostly vector calculations as opposed to summing, I've
been doing some work on adding SIMD support to numarray, with pleasing
results (around 2x speedups).  I've also done some work adding local
parallel processing support to numarray, with not-so-pleasing results
(mostly due to Python overhead).

Regarding your results:

numarray should be just as fast as the -O2 C version.  I was puzzled at
first as to where the speed discrepancy came from, but the culprit is in
the -O2 flag:  gcc -O2 noticies that sum is never used, and thus removes
the loop entirely.  As a matter of fact, there isn't even any fadd 
instruction in the assembler output:

        call    clock
        movl    %eax, %esi
        movl    $9999999, %ebx
.L11:
        decl    %ebx
        jns     .L11
        subl    $16, %esp
        call    clock

As you can see, the 21ms you're seeing is the time spent counting down
from 9,999,999 to 0.  To obtain correct results, add a line such as
'printf("%f\n",sum);' after the main loop in the C version.  This will
force gcc to leave the actual calculation in place and give you accurate
results.

The above fix will likely render numarray faster than the C version.  
Using gcc -O3 rather than gcc -O2 will get fairer results, as this is what 
numarray uses.

Is there any reason why in the Python/numarray version, you use 
Numeric's RandomArray rather than numarray.random_array?  It shouldn't 
affect your results, but it would speed up initialization time a bit.

There are a few inefficiences in the pytime module (mostly involving 
range() and *args/**kwargs), but I don't think they'll have too big of an 
impact on your results.  Instead, I'd suggest running the numarray/Numeric 
tests using Psyco to remove much of the Python overhead.

For completeness, I'd also suggest both running the Java version using a 
JIT compiler such as Kaffe, and compiling it natively using gcj (the 
latter should approach the speed of C).



From mensanator at aol.com  Mon Aug 30 13:05:52 2004
From: mensanator at aol.com (mensanator at aol.com)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 10:05:52 -0700
Subject: about presicion
In-Reply-To: <1gjc13i.rx89x319njqe2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <cgvmpg$8uc@odbk17.prod.google.com>

Alex Martelli wrote:
> Mensanator <mensanator at aol.compost> wrote:
>
> > >Subject: Re: about presicion
> > >From: Peter Hansen peter at engcorp.com
> > >Date: 8/28/04 10:31 PM Central Daylight Time
> > >Message-id: <JN6dnW6HuNiU06zcRVn-pA at powergate.ca>
> > >
> > >Ali wrote:
> > >
> > >> The decimal module comes with python 2.4? I have 2.3, :(, what
do I do?
> > >
> > >The obvious answer is, well, obvious.  The real question is
> > >what's stopping you from upgrading?
> >
> > I just tried it and found out it's not compatible with gmpy.
>
> By "it" do you mean Decimal, or Python 2.4 alpha 2?

By "it", I meant gmpy 1.0 and Python 2.4. Trying to import the
module says it can't use the Python23.dll.

> I think gmpy should
> build happily with the latter,

I'm using the pre-built Windows binary distribution. I wouldn't
know how to re-build it. I assume that when Python 2.4 is final,
I newer compatible version of gmpy will become available.

> and interoperate sensibly with Decimal
> anyway -- as gmpy's author I'd be quite happy to fix gmpy if it's
broken
> in either respect.

Were you aware that there is apparently a memory leak in the
gmpy.divm() function? Calling it several million time caused my
computer to run out of virtual memeory. Luckily, I was able to
work around it using the gmpy.invert() which didn't consume any
memory regardless of how many times it was called.

>
> > Of course, I wouldn't need gmpy to get big floats, but I
> > would then lose all the math functions like linear congruence
> > and modular inverse that my programs depend on.
> >
> > So I, for one, will have to wait for the rest of the world to
> > catch up to 2.4.
>
> 2.4 is not currently recommended for production work (that's why it's
in
> Alpha -- very good for an alpha, but it's still not a final release).

I don't do any production work. I'm just a hobbyist, so it's not a
big deal.

> But such support modules as gmpy need to get moving to support 2.4 in
> order to be ready for it well before final release...
> 
> 
> Alex



From richardjones at optushome.com.au  Mon Aug 23 00:52:42 2004
From: richardjones at optushome.com.au (richard)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:52:42 +1000
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<j_GdnceC1tYC67TcRVn-vw@cablespeedwa.com>
Message-ID: <4129781a$0$30602$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>

FWIW

J2 J2 J2


    Richard



From tom at scoosh.com  Wed Aug 18 17:54:25 2004
From: tom at scoosh.com (tom at scoosh.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 22:54:25 +0100
Subject: MSI Installer issues
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<411241F5.3080602@v.loewis.de>	<1f7befae040805103911610582@mail.gmail.com>	<411274C0.4070300@v.loewis.de>
	<1f7befae04080623276089908e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4114A02F.7060906@v.loewis.de>
	<mailman.1375.1092024082.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2jpfh0dsv97dkvflmvnu2ac9h1c91i3721@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <cg0j6q$lr$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>


"Richard Hanson" <me at privacy.net> wrote in message
news:2jpfh0dsv97dkvflmvnu2ac9h1c91i3721 at 4ax.com...
> [NB: This post contains little of substance -- the gratitude is
> real, however.]
>
> [Tim Peters wrote:]
>
> >[...] "low-res" may be a feature, as some
> >people have very low screen resolution settings and very large fonts.
>
> My Fujitsu LifeBook P1120 (Win2k SP2) has a 1024x600 pixel screen
> (and tweaked fonts to compensate for the rapidly worsening
> lighting conditions coincidentally appearing just as I age
> <wink>).
>
> A common problem I run into is that the occasional dialog box is
> too tall for the available screen real estate.
>
> (This problem is exacerbated by my preference to have the taskbar
> not hide -- driving Windows is difficult enough without having a
> not inconsiderable amount of third-party-apps sitting in my
> systray helping to clue me in on just what-all-in-hell is going
> on with this machine. This strategy sometimes even works. <wink>)
>
> In any event, while the current (2.4a2) MSI installer's dialog
> box is one of those too-tall ones, thankfully, Martin's MSI
> installer dialog thoughtfully provides scrollbars to make dealing
> with the problem much less onerous.
>
> Martin's too-tall-for-my-screen installer is the *only* too-tall
> dialog I've encountered which *has* provided the scrollbars --
> including some from BIG_NUM-bucko corps.
>
> So, no particular point. I just wanted to say good job to all the
> contributors -- thanks!
>
> -- Richard
>
> -- 
> R Hanson [The mangled email addie below works.]
> sick<P0INT>ole<PERI0D>fart<PIE_DEC0_SYNTAX>newsguy<MARK>com




From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Tue Aug  3 09:43:40 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 09:43:40 -0400
Subject: How to dynamically access Numeric subarrays
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.03.11.29.43.247284@unet.univie.ac.at>
References: <pan.2004.08.03.11.29.43.247284@unet.univie.ac.at>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408030904070.3496-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Gaubitzer Erwin wrote:

> So my questions to out there:
> How can I extract a (Numeric Python) subarray whose indices
> have to be built dynamically.

The Numeric function take() might meet your needs:

>>> from Numeric import *
>>> a = array([[[1,2],[3,4]],[[5,6],[7,8]]])
>>> take(a,(0,),0)
array([       [[1, 2],
        [3, 4]]])
>>> take(a,(1,),0)
array([       [[5, 6],
        [7, 8]]])
>>> take(a,(0,),1)
array([[        [1, 2]],
       [        [5, 6]]])
>>> take(a,(0,),2)
array([[[1],
        [3]],
       [[5],
        [7]]])

The second argument specifies which indices to take, and the third 
argument specifies to which dimension to apply the indices.

Note that take() returns an array of the same rank as that of its input; 
this may not be what you want.  To obtain an array of one less dimension, 
you'll need to reshape it.  A function like the following may be helpful:

 def takeslice(a,index,dimension):
     r = take(a,(index,),dimension)
     s = shape(r)
     return reshape(r,s[:dimension]+s[dimension+1:])

This will only accept single indexes to slice, rather than a tuple, but 
will return you an array of rank N-1 from that which it is passed:

>>> takeslice(a,0,0)
array([[1, 2],
       [3, 4]])
>>> takeslice(a,1,0)
array([[5, 6],
       [7, 8]])
>>> takeslice(a,0,1)
array([[1, 2],
       [5, 6]])
>>> takeslice(a,0,2)
array([[1, 3],
       [5, 7]])

Also of tangential interest is the ... operator.  This magic operator, 
given to a slice, means "replace me with however many : are needed to make 
this work".  It won't necessarily help your situation, but it's a handy 
thing to know:

>>> a[0,...]
array([[1, 2],
       [3, 4]])
>>> a[1,...]
array([[5, 6],
       [7, 8]])
>>> a[...,0]
array([[1, 3],
       [5, 7]])

Hope this helps, and is understandable :)



From "rff_rff\" at (remove)yahoo.it  Tue Aug 31 06:58:23 2004
From: "rff_rff\" at (remove)yahoo.it (@(remove)yahoo.it)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:58:23 GMT
Subject: [IronPython] Jim Hugunin's web log.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2627.1093893089.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2627.1093893089.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <jRYYc.74610$OH4.2093610@twister1.libero.it>

David Wilson ha scritto:
> For anyone who is excited about IronPython and it's consequences, you 
> might find Jim Hugunin's web log to be of particular interest. I didn't 
> see an announcement for this anywhere so here it is:
> 

nice to hear, thanks

> Other random thoughts: my experiences of the Python community versus, 
> eg., the perl community make me believe that Pythonistas are generally 
> more accepting of commercial solutions than their open source weenie 
> perl counterparts (*duck*). I'm still unsure as to whether or not this 
> should be considered a Microsoft marketing strategy for making in-roads 
> into the "open source scripting market".

Imo MS has always played with scripting languages.
The Shares Source CLI used perl.exe in its build process (maybe it still 
does), and IIRC MS owns part of ActiveState. Plus, in a presentation of 
MSH/Monad/"the new cmd.exe" they mentioned it being 'as powerful as perl 
,python or ruby'.


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Aug  2 21:03:30 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 21:03:30 -0400
Subject: Timing Difference: insert vs. append & reverse
References: <35b736b9.0408020330.53b24ed3@posting.google.com><Xns953983065EEC6duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
	<35b736b9.0408021152.4c1ab752@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cemo94$o25$1@sea.gmane.org>


"John Keeling" <johnfkeeling at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:35b736b9.0408021152.4c1ab752 at posting.google.com...
> expect. I've also noted an approximate two time difference between
> "del list[index] and list.pop(index)".

Here is one way to get some insight into such things:

>>> def ldel(lisp, index):
...   del lisp[index]
...
>>> def lpop(lisp, index):
...    return lisp.pop(index)
...
>>> import dis
>>> dis.dis(ldel)
          0 SET_LINENO               1

          3 SET_LINENO               2
          6 LOAD_FAST                0 (lisp)
          9 LOAD_FAST                1 (index)
         12 DELETE_SUBSCR
         13 LOAD_CONST               0 (None)
         16 RETURN_VALUE
>>> dis.dis(lpop)
          0 SET_LINENO               1

          3 SET_LINENO               2
          6 LOAD_FAST                0 (lisp)
          9 LOAD_ATTR                1 (pop)
         12 LOAD_FAST                1 (index)
         15 CALL_FUNCTION            1
         18 RETURN_VALUE
         19 LOAD_CONST               0 (None)
         22 RETURN_VALUE

You can be pretty sure that the specific opcode DELETE_SUBSCR (ipt) is
faster than the generic CALL_FUNCTION, which will eventually call (I
presume) the same C code.  (The extra attribute lookup and load take some
extra time too, but the call should be the main culprit).

Terry J. Reedy






From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 28 05:32:39 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:32:39 +0200
Subject: Question about references/copies
References: <pan.2004.08.28.07.52.35.422774@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <1gj870c.dzzhcpvby7ozN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Henning Kage <c0dec at gmx.de> wrote:

> I'm using Python only for some months now and I'm wondering, whether such
> assignments as above

"As above" _where_?

> are creating bitwise copies of an object or just
> recieve a reference. That means I wanted to know, wheter Python in general
> differs between references and copies:
> 
> class someclass:
>   def __init__( self, otherobject):
>     self.someattribute = otherobject

Python makes no copy unless you explicitly ask for a copy -- what you
get is always a reference.  There are several ways to ask for copies --
the most general and powerful ones you'll find in standard library
modules copy (both copy.copy and copy.deepcopy -- all other ways of
asking for a copy, except copy.deepcopy, get shallow copies).

The only area where one might have some doubt is _slicing_.  When you
code x=y[z:t] you're getting a (shallow) copy, if y belongs to any of
the builtin types that implement slicing, BUT there are important
third-party extensions whose types behave differently -- specifically,
Numeric; if the type of y is Numeric.array, then x shares (some of) the
data of y.

So we can say that Python _allows_ third-party and user-coded types with
slicing that works by data sharing, even though the preferred semantics
of slicing is by (shallow) copy.


> And my second question is, whether I should use a cast in such cases or
> not (I know, a cast isn't mandatory here...)

Python does not really have the concept of a cast.  Something that looks
like a cast to you is probably one of the ways to ask for a copy: for
example, if x is a list, list(x) is a (shallow) copy of x -- if y is a
dict, dict(y) is a (shallow) copy of y, and so on.

If you take an argument X that is of any iterable type, and you need to
perform local operations on the items of X (which will not risk altering
the original value of X), it is quite common to start with something
like:
    X = list(X)
if X was already a list this makes a copy (so the original does not get
altered); if X was, say, a tuple, an open file, a dict, a string, ...,
in other words any bound iterable, this in any case ensures X is now a
list with that iterable's items (be careful: some iterables change state
when iterated upon -- if X was a file, that file object is now at
end-of-file, and the caller may need, if feasible, to call its method
seek to get that file back to the previous state, for example -- so the
"will not risk altering" tidbit above does need qualification).

So anyway you might now call such mutator methods on X as sort, reverse,
extend, pop -- all the nice methods that list offers and other iterable
types don't -- and in the end presumably return or store some result
based on the suitably-mutated X.

Another similar operation that you may do reasonably frequently as your
familiarity with Python grows is to ensure you have an _iterator_ for a
generically _iterable_ argument, and sometimes the best way is something
like:
    X = iter(X)
you don't get many methods in X this way (basically, only X.next...) but
you do ensure that X "keeps state" that tracks its current iteration.
Note a big difference here: if X is already an iterator, iter(X) will
NOT make a copy -- it wll return a reference to X unchanged.  An example
generator using this technique:

def interleave(X, Y):
    X = iter(X)
    Y = iter(Y)
    while True:
        yield X.next()
        yield Y.next()

not necessarily the absolute best approach, but pretty clear -- and the
calls to iter are indispensable here, in case X and/or Y as originally
passed were iterABLES that are not iterATORS such as lists etc.


Alex


From manuelbastioniNOSPAM at tin.it  Sun Aug 29 12:15:08 2004
From: manuelbastioniNOSPAM at tin.it (manuel)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:15:08 GMT
Subject: possible python bug here
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408291716280.2571-100000@kleigh.nl>
References: <UlmYc.210493$5D1.9792439@news4.tin.it>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408291716280.2571-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <ginYc.210814$5D1.9809319@news4.tin.it>

Peter Kleiweg wrote:
> manuel schreef:
>>c=b[:] #c is a totally new list cloned from b, it's not an alias!
> 
> 
> No it isn't. You didn't make a deep copy.

Oh..thank you very much!


From beliavsky at aol.com  Mon Aug 16 17:54:15 2004
From: beliavsky at aol.com (beliavsky at aol.com)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 14:54:15 -0700
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<RGwTc.37687$js3.13758840@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<LIqdndnJz9N_pr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<slrnci0vhb.k3.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<nbudnY5S8Jl2Kb3cRVn-oQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <3064b51d.0408161354.618056ef@posting.google.com>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message news:<nbudnY5S8Jl2Kb3cRVn-oQ at powergate.ca>...
> Antoon Pardon wrote:
> 
> > Op 2004-08-16, Peter Hansen schreef <peter at engcorp.com>:
> >>Did you really not indent your code in those languages consisntly
> >>anyway?
> > 
> > I can't answer for keith, but my answer is that it depends on
> > what you consider consistent.
> > 
> > My indentation was consistent with the structure of the algorithm.
> > That is not necesarrily the same as the structure you implemeted
> > that algorithm in.
> 
> Huh?  How does an algorithm have structure that affects
> indentation?  It sounds like you are talking about some kind
> of artistic considerations here.
> 
> > I think that I should be the final judge of what is the most
> > appropiate way to use indentation, not the compilor/interpreter,
> > even if it agrees with me.
> 
> So did you indent your code such that consecutive lines were
> not indented to the same identation level even when they were
> conceptually, logically, *algorithmically* part of the same
> block?

I think you are getting a little religious about indentation. I mostly
indent Python the way I'd indent Fortran, but there are some
inflexibilities in Python:

(1) I use a blank line to separate functions. I don't like being
forced to indent every line within the body of a function.

(2) Nested loops can *sometimes* be thought of as a single loop and
indented that way. I don't think the indentation

do i=1,n
do j=1,n
do k=1,n
   x(i,j,k) = some_func(i,j,k)
end do
end do
end do

is necessarily bad. If there were other code between the do
statements, I would indent each loop.

(3) Having a labelled end-of-loop statement lets you exit the desired
number of nested loops in a clean way. In the following Fortran code
you can exit any of the nested loops. How would you simulate this
control flow in Python?

ido: do i=1,n
   ! some code
   if (foo) exit ido ! exit outer loop
   jdo: do j=1,n
      ! some code
      if (boo) exit jdo ! exit middle loop
      do k=1,n
         ! some code
         if (goo) exit ! exit inner loop
      end do
   end do jdo
end do ido


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Fri Aug  6 11:08:29 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 06 Aug 2004 17:08:29 +0200
Subject: [Newby question] List comprehension
References: <mailman.1274.1091799582.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<pan.2004.08.06.13.56.01.249870@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040806weia@bombur.uio.no>

Eelco Hoekema wrote:
> Batista, Facundo schreef:
> 
>> Now, explain me why a list comprehension is better here.
> 
> Are they better? Don't know. In Dive into Python, Mark Pilgrim states
> compared to list comprehensions, for loops are a waste of time. Not
> sure what he means by that, though.

List comprehensions are faster.

> I just like them, that's all.

Well, in your example you could cheat and use the for statement as an
assignment statement:

  [(root, songs)
   for (root, dir, files) in os.walk(os.path.abspath('.'))
   for songs in (filter(song, files),)
   if songs]

However, if you like that sort of tricks, try Perl.
Or submit a proposal to extend the list comprehension syntax:

  [(root, songs)
   for (root, dir, files) in os.walk(os.path.abspath('.'))
   with songs = filter(song, files)
   if songs]

-- 
Hallvard


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 22:29:04 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:29:04 +1000
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WE
	DONE?
In-Reply-To: <b8ad139e.0408241253.7d807f42@posting.google.com>
References: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<Xns954E696D4D95Darienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.29>
	<b8ad139e.0408241253.7d807f42@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408241929751c65ef@mail.gmail.com>

On 24 Aug 2004 13:53:58 -0700, Jess Austin <jess.austin at gmail.com> wrote:
> The natural short version of "decorate" would be "dec" and there is
> sort of a natural parallelism with "def" there.  I hesitate to
> nominate it because it _feels_ like a word that at least ten people on
> c.l.py will detest.

'dec' is also going to clash with a lot of code that uses that. That's going
to be a problem with pretty much any short keyword.

> Maybe "decor"?  It isn't any longer than "class", and I think we can
> predict it will be typed less than 1/10 as often.  But this reasoning
> could also excuse "decorate", so I'll stick with that.  I'm also open
> to any transitive verb that can be designated to mean _exactly_ what
> "decorate" means now.

decor is better - I can't find any uses of it in the Python code I just grepped
over...


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Mon Aug 16 09:28:53 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:28:53 GMT
Subject: Anyone use VPython?
References: <8f17f4bc.0408141932.46b7c405@posting.google.com>
	<69juh0dalfeu39fpvvvcb56ukovl0o1fsb@4ax.com>
	<8f17f4bc.0408151258.35874dbc@posting.google.com>
	<o900i0l8gqofa97mo883865cdk0oog7uer@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <5nc1i0pi0rt4992sn2vl25ikicu6bq9j9i@4ax.com>

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 00:50:12 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com>
wrote:


>
>Experiment from the IDLE prompt.

Oops. I forgot. I really did.

What IDLE prompt?

The VPython Windows distribution has the gaul to overwrite the
conifig-main.def file in the idlelib directory changing the default
behavior of IDLE on start-up to be a text editor, rather than an
interactive prompt.

This despite the fact that:

a) The person responsible for configuring the distribution knows that
the developers of IDLE =- specifically one GvR - made a clear
statement as to wanting the prompt as the default start-up.

b) The new IDLE has specifcally added the ability for user defined
configuration of options without touching anything in the idlelib
directory.

c) This kind of overwrite of lib files, it seems to me, is bad form in
any case.

The fact that I think that the decision is also ridiculous, on its
merits, being totally besides the point.

The OP, depending on his profile, may in actual fact have no idea what
I am talking about by referring to the IDLE interactive prompt -
having downloaded VPython.

I had made an issue of this - again - recently on edu-sig.  To a
resounding thud of reaction.  But this little exhange proves at least,
to myself,   that I am attacking something real.  Not just looking to
pick a fight.

Art



From FBatista at uniFON.com.ar  Mon Aug  9 16:23:23 2004
From: FBatista at uniFON.com.ar (Batista, Facundo)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 17:23:23 -0300 
Subject: Question
Message-ID: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C778B@escpl.tcp.com.ar>

[Dag Hansteen]

#- >>> s = "2+2"
#- >>> answer = int(str(s))
#- Traceback (most recent call last):
#-   File "<pyshell#64>", line 1, in ?
#-     answer = int(str(s))
#- ValueError: invalid literal for int(): 2+2
#- How do I this ? I have a string with a such expression and I want to
return the answer in a variable.

>>> s = "2+2"
>>> r = eval(s)
>>> r
4
>>> 

Be aware of potential malicious code that could get into the eval().

.	Facundo



From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Thu Aug 26 22:00:52 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 19:00:52 -0700
Subject: tarfile's tar.extractfile() file-like object incompatible with
	pickle.load()?
References: <3e6d6c21.0408261043.264c3a2d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1093572564.733113@news.commspeed.net>


"Matt Doucleff" <mattduke at ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message
news:3e6d6c21.0408261043.264c3a2d at posting.google.com...
> Hi everyone!  I must be doing something wrong here :)  I have a
> tarball that contains a single file whose contents are a pickled
> object.  I would like to unpickle the object directly from the tarball
> using the file-like object provided by extractfile().  Attempts to do
> this result in EOFError.  However if I first extract to a temporary
> file, then unpickle from there, it works.  The below code reproduces
> the problem (on my machine at least).  I'm running Python 2.3.4,
> manually installed on Debian Woody (original python removed).  Thanks!
>
> This sample code creates (and then removes) files in the tmp directory
> and in the current working directory.
>
> # demonstrates extractfile/unpickle failure (bug?)
>
> # pickle a dict to a temp file
> # create tar file, add temp file to it, close tar file
> # open tar file for reading
> # obtain file-like object for pickled file using extractfile()
> # attempt to unpickle dict from file-like object
> # fails with EOFError exception
>
> import tarfile
> import pickle
> import tempfile
> import os
>
> if __name__ == '__main__':
>     try:
>         hashtopickle = { 'a' : 1, 'b' : 2 }
>
>         # pickle to temp file
>         (fd, tmpfilename) = tempfile.mkstemp()
>         tmpfile = os.fdopen(fd, 'w')
>         pickle.dump(hashtopickle, tmpfile)
>         tmpfile.close()
>
>         # create tar; add temp file
>         tar = tarfile.open('tarpickle.tar', 'w')
>         tar.add(tmpfilename, 'pickledhash')
>         tar.close()
>
>         # remove temp file
>         os.remove(tmpfilename)
>
>         # open tarfile for reading, get filelike
>         tar = tarfile.open('tarpickle.tar', 'r')
>         filelike = tar.extractfile('pickledhash')
>
>         # fails
>         hashcopy = pickle.load(filelike)
>
>     finally:
>         # cleanup
>         os.remove('tarpickle.tar')

It occurs to me that you need to do,

 hashcopy = pickle.loads(filelike)

if filelike is a string.

Tom
P.S. have a look at pickle.dumps()




From peufeu at free.fr  Fri Aug 13 02:47:30 2004
From: peufeu at free.fr (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Pierre-Fr=E9d=E9ric_Caillaud?=)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 08:47:30 +0200
Subject: Yet another PEP318
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<20040812090056.00001e31@titan>
	<7ttmh0t8c3cogtbhhnp1ohqu8b51pda461@4ax.com>
	<roy-DC33F4.12335012082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <opscnrtgfb1v4ijd@musicbox>



Proposal :

Make def an expression (always returns the function):

# this one behaves as usual
def funcname(params):
	function body

# this one is new
# it allows us to name a function (func.__name__ ?) and also use it in  
expressions
variable = def funcname(params):
	function body

# or
variable = def (params):
	function body

# or
	return def funcname(params):
		function body

Now we could write :
	funcname = classmethod(
		def funcname( params ):
			body
		)

But it looks lispish and introduces a lot of confusing parentheses...

Now, I propose (oops) a new operator, whatever name it has, which means  
"the value of the expression on the next line of code". Let's say this is  
a new use for "*" :

	a = function1( x,*,z )
	function2( f,g,h )

	This would be translated by the compiler as
	
	a = function1( x,function2( f,g,h ),z )

So we can have :

	funcname = decorator1(*)
	decorator2(*, other params)
	def funcname( params ):
		function body

What do you think ?

Yet another proposition :

execute:
	funcname = classmethod( funcname )
after:
	def funcname(params):
		body
	


On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:33:50 -0400, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:

> Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
>> I must say that after days of waffling, and I think an honest effort
>> to accept where things were going, I woke this morning hating
>> @decorator.
>>
>> The existing syntax for this kind of transformation is, in fact,
>> exactly what one would expect:
>>
>> foo=staticmathed(foo).
>>
>> That is the universal langauge for transformations.  And when we try
>> to explain to anybody what it is that @decorator means, we go back to
>> the pseudo code that is in fact the existing syntax.
>
> I'm with Arthur.
>
> I think the core problem is that the def statement is kind of wierd.  It
> does two different things.  First, it creates a function body, then it
> binds the function to a name.
>
> One of the objections to:
>
> def foo ():
>    whatever
> foo = decorator (foo)
>
> is that you have to type the word "foo" three times.  It's not so much
> the effort of repeating the keystrokes, but the fact that it feels so
> unfactored.  The only reason you need to do this is because you have no
> way of getting at the newly-generated function (what CS types would call
> a "lambda form") before it's bound to the name.
>
> A solution to that is to factor out the function definition from the
> name binding, so you would do something like:
>
> foo = def ():
>    whatever
>
> although by the time you do that, you might as well have just gotten rid
> of def and used lambda() directly.  If you wanted it to be a
> static/class method, you would do:
>
> foo = staticmethod_def ():
>    whatever
>
> The other big objection to the current syntax is that it puts the
> wrapper way down at the bottom of the function body, away from the name.
> The above syntax solves that too.
>
> The big problem with the above is that it changes the semantics of the
> def statement in a way which is incompatible with current usage, and
> thus I would expect it's a complete non-starter.  Not to mention
> inventing new keywords.
>
> On the other hand, doing:
>
> def (staticmethod) foo ():
>    whatever
>
> (you can pick whatever bits of punctuation turn you on) seems like it
> should work just fine.  I think it achieves all the goals:
>
> 1) It puts the decorator before the function body.
>
> 2) It keeps the decorator right next to the function name.
>
> 3) It doesn't re-define any currently valid syntax.
>
> 4) It looks enough like current Python syntax that most add-on tools
> should handle it just fine.
>
> 5) If you've got lots of decorators (I'm still not sure if people really
> think this will happen in real life), it's easy enough to break it up
> into multiple lines:
>
> def @decorator1 \
>     @decorator2 \
>     @decorator3 foo (a, b, c):
>    print a, b, c
>
> but I'm assuming that will be the exception, just like really long
> argument lists are the exception.  Define the order of application of
> multiple decorators in whichever way floats your boat; I'm guessing
> outside-in (i.e. the last one gets done first) makes the most sense.
>
> I suppose you could take this one step further and put the decorators
> inside ()'s, so you'd have any of (as auto-indented by emacs):
>
> def (decorator) foo (a, b, c):
>     pass
>
> def (decorator1, decorator2, decorator3) foo (a, b, c):
>     pass
>
> def (decorator1,
>      decorator2,
>      decorator3) foo (a, b, c):
>     pass
>
> def (decorator1,
>      decorator2,
>      decorator3) foo (a,
>                       b,
>                       c):
>     pass
>
> with the last example being a bit ugly, but at least it seems to follow
> the expected indenting rules.  In any case, you'd only have to resort to
> something like that if you had lots of decorators and lots of arguments,
> and in that case, I suspect you might want to be refactoring things to
> simplify it all anyway.
>
> I haven't done an exhaustive search of all the proposed syntaxen which
> have come flying by here in the past week or so.  My apologies if I've
> accidentally duplicated somebody else's work here.
>
> In retrospect (this has been written in dribs and drabs over the past
> several hours, as I've been called away repeatedly to do real work), I
> see I started out by agreeing with Arthur that the current (i.e. pre
> PEP-318) way of doing things is good enough, then managed to head off
> into a different direction and suggest YADS (Yet Another Decorator
> Syntax).  Oh, well.
>
> I'm also not at all convinced that using decorators for things like doc
> strings makes any sense at all.  It's just the wrong tool.  Docstrings
> work just fine the way they are.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
> Which I guess brings me full-circle back to agreeing with Arthur :-)



From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 12 22:53:42 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:53:42 -0400
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
In-Reply-To: <411bd3f0$1@nntp.zianet.com>
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
	<60dfb6f6.0408111846.615ee9eb@posting.google.com>
	<3YWdnYxLf--ObofcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<cffbbu$amv$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk> <411ba1db$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<EvadnaCm3bK0NIbcRVn-iQ@powergate.ca> <411bd3f0$1@nntp.zianet.com>
Message-ID: <X5qdnYpQdNaqsIHcRVn-rA@powergate.ca>

Mark Bottjer wrote:

> Peter Hansen wrote:
> 
>> Mark Bottjer wrote:
>>> With this
>>> syntax, though, the decorate block changes how the def statement is 
>>> handled, even though they are at the same indentation level.
>>
>> Changes it how?  The definition of this whole decorator idea has been
>> that it is equivalent to applying the decorator functions *after* the
>> def has completed, as in "func = decorator(func)".  This does not
>> in any way changed how the def statement itself is handled.
> 
> Except that the action happens magically after the def, even though the 
> decorator is before it. To me, this has the appearance of changing the 
> action of def. I'm trying to argue based on how it appears, rather than 
> how we know it to be implemented.

I understand that.  What I don't understand is why you make
this complaint about the indented form, when the non-indented
form with @decorator has exactly the same issue!  In all
cases, pre-def is weird in that the declarative lines that
decorate the function lead to action *after* the def is
closed, whether the decorators are indented or not.

-Peter


From firemoth at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 00:33:31 2004
From: firemoth at gmail.com (Timothy Fitz)
Date: 15 Aug 2004 21:33:31 -0700
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
References: <972ec5bd.0408141032.385fe115@posting.google.com>
	<cfn0oa$112$1@news.uni-kl.de>
Message-ID: <972ec5bd.0408152033.19fdcba4@posting.google.com>

Dominic <nomail at nospam.no> wrote in message news:<cfn0oa$112$1 at news.uni-kl.de>...
> > values. I am currently writing a real time strategy game where I have
> I have written a simple 2D-real-time vehicle simulator in Python
>    (+ graphics library Allegro), using chained generators
> which works well enough.
> 
> If your game is more ambitious, spend some time designing
>   a good architecture and specify your components' interfaces.
> Then you could generate your code-skeleton from that;
> simple generators should be sufficient to implement
> your methods which are then driven by your architectures
> "execution model".
> 
> ciao,
>   Dominic

It really was never an issue of "Python can't handle this." it was
more of an issue of "Python should more openly support this." I am
championing generators because they make programming SO much easier in
cases, and people really just don't use them outside if list
generation, which saddens me.


From luismg at gmx.net  Mon Aug 23 01:32:58 2004
From: luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 22:32:58 -0700
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<278de0e.0408220636.3ee25f9d@posting.google.com>
	<mYGdnT5L6pqMJ7XcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
	<278de0e.0408221450.324e8178@posting.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.22.23.00.08.383742@jerf.org>
Message-ID: <278de0e.0408222132.40828dd7@posting.google.com>

Jeremy, I didn't attack anyone's religion or race. 
We are talking about a programing language...why are you so touchy?

> as Python is an open-source and volunteer based this can be interpreted as
> a command on how people should spend their freely offered time.

Granted. Perhaps I should have started the phrase: "In my humble
oppinion...".
English is not my mother tongue, as you might have already guessed, so
excuse me if I'm not sensitive enough...


> (In other words, all of *what* efforts? Are you helping to speed up Python
> at all, or is this just rather strongly worded "suggestions" to other
> people? Not a friendly approach.)

If you read again my previous post, you'll see that I already
expressed my genuine admiration and gratitude for python's developers
and that I think that the path they are taking for improving python is
the correct one.
As for what I'm doing to help python, I'm affraid nothing, Im sorry.
I'm not a developer. Maybe I'm just helping by spreading the word that
python is great...
As far as I know, this forum is for all python users, not just
developers.
Now if you think I shouldn't participate here, please kindly let me
know.

> Referring to other people's opinions as "nonsense" is also not a path to a
> productive discussion, especially when the prime criterion for
> "nonsensicalness" seems to be "an opinion different then mine".

I appreciate other people's oppinions, even when I disagree. I didn't
say that other people's oppinions were nonsense, what I meant is that
the whole discussion was getting nonsense, because there's no use in
discussing wether python is slow or not.
Now if you find this oppinion ofensive, I'm sorry.
 
> If you don't understand why that is logically true, I
> suggest thinking about it for a bit before replying yet again...

With duly respect, I don't need you to teach me how and when I should
express myself.
Please don't get me wrong, I really find much of your writing
reasonable, but the arrogant tenor of your educational suggestion is
out of place.


From dsavitsk at remove-andrespell-to-send-mail-YAH-HEW.com  Wed Aug 11 01:33:08 2004
From: dsavitsk at remove-andrespell-to-send-mail-YAH-HEW.com (drs)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 00:33:08 -0500
Subject: Pythonwin -- How to embed Trace Collector?
Message-ID: <10hjbtqrtpkqqe6@corp.supernews.com>

Does anyone know a quick and easy way to embed the Trace Collector from
Pythonwin into a VB6 form? This would help tremendously with some debugging.

Thanks,

-d




From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Aug  2 20:22:23 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 20:22:23 -0400
Subject: Concerning classes (Newb question)
References: <6c8fb5be.0408020947.67ef58e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cemls0$k4f$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Cyrille Lavigne" <dontreply at caramail.com> wrote in message
news:6c8fb5be.0408020947.67ef58e at posting.google.com...
> Hi!
> I'm very new to the art of programming and I just learn OOP
> in python. I want to know why the following bit of code crash.

In general, questions like this should include the error message and
traceback.  The error message usually tells you 'why' (if only you can
understand ;-).

tjr





From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug  3 17:31:46 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 17:31:46 -0400
Subject: simple Thread question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408031630190.12292-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
References: <b8001e9f.0408031151.4f617c6@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408031557360.11453-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<fZKdncewKJzcaZLcRVn-qw@powergate.ca>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408031630190.12292-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <q96dnTrq49_ZmY3cRVn-pw@powergate.ca>

Christopher T King wrote:

> On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Peter Hansen wrote:
> 
> 
>>Obviously this just depends on differing ideas of what it means to be
>>"friendly" to threads, but I find Python to be the most reliable and
>>easiest to use environment for multi-threaded applications that I've
>>ever used.
> 
> 
> Poor choice of words on my part... I didn't mean API wise (though I'm not 
> a huge fan of threading), but rather implementation-wise (having the GIL 
> and all).

I realize that's what you meant, and I stick with my opinion that
it is *exactly that* which makes Python a much better environment
for all the threaded applications I've written than the other
environments I've tried in the past.

-Peter


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 23:11:39 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 23:11:39 -0400
Subject: Python secure?
In-Reply-To: <4neUc.3991$bJ2.26560@news1.mts.net>
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk><ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com><ZKRTc.3710$bJ2.23892@news1.mts.net>	<cforh6$qiv$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<mailman.1705.1092625838.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2xXTc.3775$bJ2.24876@news1.mts.net>
	<NIydnd-skK0q173cRVn-ow@powergate.ca>
	<4neUc.3991$bJ2.26560@news1.mts.net>
Message-ID: <B7mdnXJjCfvx6rzcRVn-pA@powergate.ca>

Reid Nichol wrote:

> Peter Hansen wrote:
>  > A given programmer will be more likely to create safe and
>  > secure software using Python than with C, thereby making
>  > C the less secure...
> 
> Quite frankly I find C a perfectly viable language to write secure code. 

You haven't really been programming for very long, I think.

> It's only failing is that people don't understand how to use it before 
> they type (which isn't exactly a failing of the language itself, but of 
> the person using it).  A perfect example of this is pointers.  

Ah pointers... wonderful pointers.  The fact that in C it is sometimes
necessary to resort to pointers pretty much illustrates the point (no
pun intended).

A pointer is a low-level detail of the machine architecture, and
requiring a programmer to manipulate it properly is a *failing*
of the language, not of the programmer.  Pointers are difficult,
and this can be shown either a priori or in the very large body
of empirical evidence which has formed as a result.

Your argument (and I don't intend to start a flame war about another
religious area) is tantamount to saying that the only failing of
guns is that people use them to kill other people...  (That argument
has merit, of course, but it sort of misses the whole point.)

> If people 
> wouldn't rush, if they took there time to learn what's actually going 
> on, they wouldn't make those mistakes.

Okay, fair enough... though still arguable.  But let's look at
reality: people do rush.  People don't take the time to learn
what's actually going on.  And even when they do, they are
only human, so sometimes they forget, or get confused, or just
get in a hurry, or in spite of all their best efforts they
still manage not to do it right.  Expecting programmers to
be perfect is unreasonable, and to achieve very secure code in
C one must expect to have perfect programmers.

> One cannot judge a language by it's ability to allow sloppyness.  

Whyever not?  There's no inherent reason why one shouldn't do
exactly that.  Assembly, for example, is a terrible language
from which to expect secure, readable, maintainable programs,
largely because it is so low level that it is incredibly
difficult for the programmer to keep everything straight,
organized, and well-structured.  Impossible to keep well-structured
in fact, because it is inherently an unstructured language.

 > Quite frankly, I've seen some crap
> Python code.  It's the programmer NOT the language.

Not quite: it's the programmer *and* the language.  But for
a given programmer, there are clear differences between two
languages in terms of how readable the resulting code will be,
not to mention how secure.

> I hope others see your clear bias towards Python as I have (One need 
> only to look at your descriptions to see it.).  

As if I ever tried to hide it... :-)

> Remember, there is no 
> one language that everything is good for.  Python, C, C++, Lisp, etc all 
> have things that it is best to program in them.  It all depends on the 
> projects requirements.

All true...  but we _were_ talking about requirements involving
security and, for that, C is not as good as Python.  I think
your final statement is pretty close to agreeing with that,
unless you really want to go back now and argue against yourself,
that C is just as good as Python in that area, or perhaps even
better...  (in which case I'm quite curious what areas you
think Python, C++, and Lisp excel in compared to C.)

-Peter


From jjl at pobox.com  Thu Aug 26 16:40:00 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 21:40:00 +0100
Subject: Missing _sre.pyd in 2.4a2 Windows installer?
References: <1xhtg1xm.fsf@pobox.com>
	<mailman.2468.1093547737.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <oekxr5un.fsf@pobox.com>

Tim Peters <tim.peters at gmail.com> writes:

> [John J. Lee]
> > The subject line says it, really: I installed 2.4a2 using the MSI
> > installer on python.org, and I appear to be missing this file:
> > 
> > C:\Python24\DLLs\_sre.pyd
> 
> That file doesn't exist in 2.4; the code it used to contain has been
> folded into the core python24.dll (so _sre is builtin now, instead of
> an extension module).
> 
> > As a result, Python picks up the _sre.pyd from my 2.3 installation,
> 
> That shouldn't be possible, since _sre is a builtin now.
[...]

Aha.  In a puff of logic, the error has now vanished.  Mysterious...

Thankyou


John


From andymac at bullseye.apana.org.au  Fri Aug 27 07:00:52 2004
From: andymac at bullseye.apana.org.au (Andrew MacIntyre)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 21:00:52 +1000 (EST)
Subject: What GCC version had <stdint.h> defined?
In-Reply-To: <412ecb16$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
References: <412e39d1$1@nntp0.pdx.net> <412E55A9.9070400@v.loewis.de>
	<412e70d3$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
	<mailman.2492.1093573592.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<412ecb16$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
Message-ID: <20040827205158.I56987@bullseye.apana.org.au>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Scott David Daniels wrote:

> The problem is, of course (Billy G is always a problem), that I am running
> on Win2K, so I don't run configure.in.  I have two copies of MinGW --
> one 2.95 (no stdint.h), and one 3.2.3 which does do stdint.h.
> These were not set up when whoever built windows 2.3.4 did so -- he or
> she did not know what was going to be on my disk after I downloaded and
> installed python.

In this context, stdint.h is not a part of gcc per se, but rather a
part of the MinGW development environment - in the same way that a lot of
other header files in MinGW's include directory are not part of the
standard gcc distribution.

If the module code in question can be built on Unixish platforms, ISTM
you should protect your special MinGW'isms with an #ifdef WIN32, to avoid
problems with Python installations built with configure.

The question that I think you are trying to ask is "which version of MinGW
introduced stdint.h", and then see if there's a define you can use...
(I don't know of one, but then I've only used MinGW 1.1 which contains gcc
2.95).

--
Andrew I MacIntyre                     "These thoughts are mine alone..."
E-mail: andymac at bullseye.apana.org.au  (pref) | Snail: PO Box 370
        andymac at pcug.org.au             (alt) |        Belconnen  ACT  2616
Web:    http://www.andymac.org/               |        Australia


From me at privacy.net  Sat Aug  7 09:21:20 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Dan Sommers)
Date: 07 Aug 2004 09:21:20 -0400
Subject: Queue qsize = unreliable?
References: <mailman.1279.1091807593.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<e7r8h018rt6aa44spc7qckns27groa543i@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <m24qnfnkxb.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>

On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 06:14:29 GMT,
Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:53:11 -0400, Tim Peters <tim.peters at gmail.com>
> declaimed the following in comp.lang.python:

>> 
>> James, why do you think they're necessary functions?  If, e.g., you're

> 	My birth-certificate lists "James" as a saint name, will you
> accept my response <G>

>> worried about the queue getting "too big", pass a maximum size to the
>> constructor, and then a producer thread trying to add to a full queue
>> will block until a consumer thread takes an entry off the queue. 
>> Indeed, mediating mismatched processing rates is a prime use case for
>> bounded queues.
>> 
> 	I can see a potential use for wanting to know the approximate
> size of a Queue. A thread dispatcher with leeway to create additional
> processing threads whenever the Queue becomes full (I'm not quite sure
> how one would handle removing threads later, unless one can Queue the
> removal command). Something like (pseudo-Python):

[ algorithm snipped ]

AIUI, a Queue *can* return its approximate size, which would be almost
good enough for that application.  A full Queue raise an exception when
you try to stuff more into it, and that would work just as well.  OTOH,
not reaching that point might also be nice.

I can envision a naive algorithm thrashing if the Queue is close to the
threshold and the producer and consumer threads are running at about the
same rate, though.  You'd end up with a slightly more interessting
algorithm using high and low water marks rather than a single threshold;
the (programming-language-neutral) details are left to the interested
reader (and, I'm sure, contained in many a textbook).

Regards,
Dan

-- 
Dan Sommers
<http://www.tombstonezero.net/dan/>
Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.


From mauriceling at acm.org  Tue Aug 24 18:45:29 2004
From: mauriceling at acm.org (Maurice LING)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 22:45:29 GMT
Subject: using pexpect to control python
In-Reply-To: <evorv1-s8f.ln1@lairds.us>
References: <412b0b21$1@news.unimelb.edu.au> <412b14c2@duster.adelaide.on.net>
	<evorv1-s8f.ln1@lairds.us>
Message-ID: <412bc504$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>

I suppose I'm actually still toying with the possibilities of what 
pexpect can do with python and the question comes up.

Another thing which I'm thinking previously is how can I embed a python 
interpreter (not compiler) that does line by line interpretation and 
execution, in a python program? I realized that python's language 
services has a compile package that can be invoked to compile python 
source into python bytecodes but that's provided that the codes are in a 
file. Perhaps what I'm interested may be how to embed and use the 
interactive mode of python interpreter in a python program?

Thanks
Maurice
> 
> That last is *always* an apt question.
> 
> Don Libes invented Expect.  Expect is a wonderful, wonderful thing;
> at the same time, its purpose is to mollify "programs with crappy
> interfaces" (his words), so it's dispensable and inherently sub-op-
> timal, in a sense I think we can make precise.  The point here is
> that, whenever you're considering controlling a Python-based appli-
> cation PP with Expect (or pexpect or ...), you should first invest
> at least ten seconds analyzing whether you're better off re-doing
> PP's interface.


From nholtz at docuweb.ca  Thu Aug 26 18:08:54 2004
From: nholtz at docuweb.ca (Neal Holtz)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 15:08:54 -0700
Subject: How to generically transform a list?
References: <mailman.2429.1093531645.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <639f17f8.0408261408.1a779ca0@posting.google.com>

Marco Aschwanden <PPNTWIMBXFFC at spammotel.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.2429.1093531645.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> Suppose you have a list of lists:
> 
> theList = [['a',1,11,'aa'], ['b',2,22,'bb'],['c',3,33,'cc']]
> 
> I would like to have a GENERIC way how to turn this list of list into 
> another list of list.
> - A user can choose which columns she wants
> - A user can select the order of the columns
> 
> For example:
> The user wants columns: 1,2
> The user wants it to be ordered: 2,1
> 
> A non generic approach would maybe do the following:
> 
> >>> theList = [['a',1,11,'aa'], ['b',2,22,'bb'],['c',3,33,'cc']]
> >>> new_list = [[row[2], row[1]] for row in theList]
> >>> new_list
> [[11, 1], [22, 2], [33, 3]]
> 
> I am sure there must be a rather elegant generic approach, which is 
> lurking somewhere to be realeased.
> 
> Thanks for any hint in advance,
> Marco

theList = [['a',1,11,'aa'], ['b',2,22,'bb'],['c',3,33,'cc']]
cols = [2,1]
new_list = [[row[i] for i in cols] for row in theList]
new_list
[[11, 1], [22, 2], [33, 3]]

?


From tmj at jarmania.com  Wed Aug 18 10:36:41 2004
From: tmj at jarmania.com (Tim Jarman)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:36:41 +0100
Subject: How big can a Python program be?
In-Reply-To: <903b3fba.0408180619.4d41027e@posting.google.com>
References: <903b3fba.0408170333.49ce3944@posting.google.com>
	<412204d5$1$28243$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk>
	<903b3fba.0408180619.4d41027e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <05612924-F124-11D8-A921-000D9366BF6A@jarmania.com>


On 18 Aug 2004, at 15:19, vronskij at post.sk wrote:
>
> No way. This was just another question. One  programmer told me that
> he
> can roughly handle max 10 000 lines  in C language. I was curious
> about Python. I always hear that Python can be used on larger projects
> than e.j. PERL because it is Object Oriented and cleanly designed.
> What is a larger project? Mumbers revail more.

Of course 10,000 lines of Python will usually encompass much more 
functionality than 10,000 lines of C, because Python is a higher-level 
language, so you need to be careful you're comparing like with like. I 
have never tried to write 10,000 lines of Perl, and would never do so 
unless (a) I was being paid an obscenely large amount of money for it 
and (b) I had a cast-iron guarantee that I would never have to look at 
it ever again.

But a simple line-count is less revealing than actual project scope 
IMHO. What does this 10,000-line C program actually do? How much effort 
would it be to do that in Python? In a lot of cases, the answer will be 
that it is much less effort in Python, and fringe benefits of that are 
likely to include shorter and more legible code than you had in C. You 
might be able to do it in APL in far fewer lines, but as to effort and 
legibility... YMMV!

Tim J



From jerf at jerf.org  Mon Aug 23 20:25:57 2004
From: jerf at jerf.org (Jeremy Bowers)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 00:25:57 GMT
Subject: Standard graph API?
References: <slrncik8tm.4g.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
	<eppstein-08D901.11581523082004@news.service.uci.edu>
	<pan.2004.08.23.16.22.34.771887@jerf.org>
	<slrnciklkh.e8q.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.23.20.25.52.226652@jerf.org>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:41:53 +0000, Magnus Lie Hetland wrote:

> In article <pan.2004.08.23.16.22.34.771887 at jerf.org>, Jeremy Bowers wrote:
> [snip]
> 
> As I tried to state in the original post (I probably wasn't clear enough)
> I'm not talking about a standard *implementation*, just a standard *API*,
> like the DB-API. This could easily cover all kinds of strange beasts such
> as directed or undirected, weighted or unweighted (etc.) graphs;
> multigraphs, chain graphs, hypergraphs, who knows.

Point conceded about API and not a library, but I'm not sure that changes
my point much. Your API is going to assume something about how edges are
represented (which will conflict with somebody), *or* it will be so vague
as to not have any particular advantage over the nothing we have now. And
so on for most of the other dimensions.


From sharidas at zeomega.com  Fri Aug 13 02:46:28 2004
From: sharidas at zeomega.com (Satchidanand Haridas)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 12:16:28 +0530
Subject: while and if
In-Reply-To: <411C626C.4070208@zeomega.com>
References: <e0197c1847cb38af22dceeb8aaa6e679@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>	<mailman.1581.1092372820.5135.python-list@python.org>	<mailman.1582.1092375949.5135.python-list@python.org>	<78e89de7f43dc55408bc9891b77d06cc@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>
	<411C626C.4070208@zeomega.com>
Message-ID: <411C63C4.3000302@zeomega.com>

Hi,

There was a formatting error in my last mail. In the code, the 
'l.append(temp)' should appear on a new line. So:

<correction>

    print "choice ",x+1," is ", tmp
    l.append(temp)

</correction>
       
Regards,
Satchit

----
Satchidanand Haridas (sharidas at zeomega dot com)

ZeOmega (www.zeomega.com)
Open  Minds' Open Solutions

#20,Rajalakshmi Plaza,
South End Road,
Basavanagudi,
Bangalore-560 004, India



Satchidanand Haridas wrote:

>
> Calvin79 wrote:
>
>> Hi Satchit,
>>
>> Thankyou for what you've already done, but would you mind if I ask one
>> last thing and then I'll leave you alone?
>>
>> In it's present form the output is fine, but I think I might like to 
>> have
>> it output in this format;['c', 'b', 'a', 'd']. It is probably the most
>> basic of questions to ask, but heck I've only been at this python 
>> stuff a
>> week... : ) 
>> Calvin
>>
>>  
>>
> Hi,
>
> Change the 'print' line to append to a list:
>
> <code>
>
> import random
>
> things = xrange(int(raw_input("choose no of things (1-8)? ")))
>
> state = [None,None]
>
> l = []                                                      # new line
>
> for x in things:
>    tmp = random.choice('abcd')
>    print state
>    while tmp in state[0:2]:
>        tmp = random.choice('abcd')
>    print "choice ",x+1," is ", tmp           


> l.append(tmp)                                    # new line
>    state[x%2] = tmp
>
> print l                                                     # new line
>
> </code>
>
> ----
> Satchidanand Haridas (sharidas at zeomega dot com)
>
> ZeOmega (www.zeomega.com)
> Open  Minds' Open Solutions
>
> #20,Rajalakshmi Plaza,
> South End Road,
> Basavanagudi,
> Bangalore-560 004, India
>
>
>


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 11 15:10:22 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:10:22 -0400
Subject: Rather than decorators, how about sections?
In-Reply-To: <gzsSc.3102$M8.1654@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1509.1092238688.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<gzsSc.3102$M8.1654@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <cfdqut$mgq$1@sea.gmane.org>

Paul McGuire wrote:

> This only addresses the "decoration" for declaring static and class methods.
> The decorator mechanism is intended to include much more than this simple
> class declaration feature.  See
> http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/PythonDecoratorLibrary for the first
> application (memoize - a return value cacheing helper/decorator, to optimize
> access to repetitive or compute-intensive function calls, with NO changes
> needed to the function itself).  Other decorator candidates I've seen
> mentioned are:
> - mutex lock/unlock wrapper
> - debugging/logging wrapper
> - pre-condition/post-condition assertion wrappers
> - input argument validation/typing wrapper
> - return value type validation wrapper > needed to the function itself).

memoize is an example of something that probably should not be specified 
in the method definition.  It's strictly a 'pragma' --- just a 
suggestion to the compiler on how it could speed up the function.  That 
kind of 'decoration' (as well as some of the other examples you cited) 
is of a 2nd class nature in that it doesn't affect whether the program 
produces the correct result or not.  Therefore, I would not want to have 
such statements comingled with the statements that truly are germane to 
the correct functioning of my code.  They would only be a distraction, 
and are best relegated to some other place in the code-base (another 
file perhaps).

That's kindof the thinking behind aspect oriented programming (AOP).  A 
body of code should deal with only one aspect of the problem...




From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Thu Aug 26 11:23:25 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:23:25 GMT
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2430.1093532033.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <invri0t4vh4a7mk0tar398v7lqnu4mdad4@4ax.com>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 00:53:51 +1000, Anthony Baxter
<anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:40:18 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
>> >IMO, to change it inside of a function def should be (but isn't) as easy
>> >as...
>> >
>> >   >>> def foo():
>> >   ...     """ I am foo """
>> >   ...     __doc__ = __doc__ + 'indeed'
>> >
>> >Paul
>> 
>> Yes.  Not only do I follow, but I think we came to exactly the same
>> place, from very different directions, and coming from what I sense is
>> very different backgrounds.
>> 
>> Its just that I don't think many others seem to find that as
>> interesting as I happen to.
>
>Not so much that, as running out of ways to restate myself. The
>proposed syntax above still requires magic handling of double-under
>variables in a function, and a new namespace. I can't see how you can
>think that this is a _good_ thing.

Forgive me, that I am not necessarily able to grasp why it is
necessarily a bad thing. or a badder thing than other things.  But do
not discount at all your advice that we are in pie-in-the-sky land.
The weight of evidence - being the general lack of interest in this
thread, being taken into account.

But as I explained earlier, I was hoping some fortipation (or other
mojo someone might provide) might make this come together some.

Ain't to be if it ain't to be.

Art


From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug 23 21:25:09 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 01:25:09 GMT
Subject: Getting at the bits of a 32-bit integer
References: <85b54e91.0408231552.75f85727@posting.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.23.20.16.40.406025@jerf.org>
Message-ID: <412a98f4$0$65569$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-24, Jeremy Bowers <jerf at jerf.org> wrote:

>>>> a = 1023
>>>> (a & 1024) >> 10
> 0
>
> Obviously, you need better constants and stuff.
>
> However, I must challenge your need to do this in the first place.

That's a bit, um, conceited.  Somebody's got to twiddle all
those low-level bits out there to provide the infrastructure
that makes the world run.

I'm one of those people, and I need to do bit-twiddling quite
often while implimenting various communications protocols.

> Python and bit twiddling generally don't go together;

Says you.  I say they go together quite well.  Bit-twiddling in
Python works great.  It's a hell of a lot easier than doing it
in C, and I've switched to Python for all my non-embedded
bit-twiddling needs.

> even if you are accessing a binary file or protocol you should
> shuffle out as much to the struct (?) module as possible.

Struct only works at the byte level.  For bitfields within
bytes, you've got to use the bitwise and/or/xor/shift operators
just like you do in C.

> If you want to track every bit and byte, Python is the wrong
> language for you...

So, what language do you think is better?  It sure isn't C. I
did bit-twiddling in C for 20 years, and doing it in Python is
much easier.

> and unless you are tracking many many millions of bits, this
> is the wrong decade for it.

I guess I plain don't understand that last clause.  It seems to
imply that if you _are_ tracking many millions of bits, this is
the decade to do it in Python?

I used C for many, many years for low-level stuff like tearing
apart serial data streams, Ethernet frames, IP headers and
suchlike, and I can assure you that it's far, far easier to do
stuff like that in Python than in C.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Where's SANDY DUNCAN?
                                  at               
                               visi.com            


From olli at haluter.fromme.com  Mon Aug 23 12:47:42 2004
From: olli at haluter.fromme.com (Oliver Fromme)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 16:47:42 GMT
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
References: <mailman.2154.1093185852.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2ouldeFf0ujnU2@uni-berlin.de>

Robert Brewer <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote:
 > III. Choosing a keyword
 > [...]
 > -Candidates for keywords have fallen into two or three camps, and
 > emphasize different aspects of decorators: 
 > 
 > -Declarative: declare, predef, moddef 
 > -Transformative: transform, wrap, modify, mutate 
 > -Attributive/Annotative: amend, using, having 
 > -Directive: pragma, signify 
 > -Associative: helper, qualify, qual, meta 
 > -Cross-cutting: imbue, endow, bestow, embellish, extend, accum, glom,
 > confer
 > -Prepositions/Adverbs: using, through, per, via, by

Aren't decorators just functions that are applied to the
function definition?  Then how about "apply"?  It's short
(for those lazy typers), and it expresses exactly what
happens.


apply:
    staticmethod
    memoize
def foo (int):
    pass


Best regards
   Oliver

-- 
Oliver Fromme, Konrad-Celtis-Str. 72, 81369 Munich, Germany

``All that we see or seem is just a dream within a dream.''
(E. A. Poe)


From fumanchu at amor.org  Wed Aug 25 12:42:15 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:42:15 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E6F@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

The J2 proposal is as complete as it will ever be.

http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html

The patch is nearly complete; only the __future__ declaration and some
document tweaks remain. It should be updated on SourceForge today or
tomorrow.

This is a call for all who wish to sign the proposal, either for,
against, or abstaining. Please sign by either posting on
comp.lang.python (replying to this is fine), or sending email to
fumanchu at amor.org (for some of you reading this, here's a link:
mailto:fumanchu at amor.org). Please include your full name. If you reject
the proposal, please also include a _short_ description of why you are
rejecting it. You will not receive a reply regarding the rejection or
description; it will be included for Guido's information purposes only.

Please read the proposal carefully before signing. In particular,
carefully read the statement (for, against, or abstaining) to which you
are signing your name; each is explicit and means exactly what it says.

Thanks again to those who have contributed in all forms. Hopefully, we
can put this decorator issue to rest soon and move on.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org

P.S. I'll be out of town from Friday morning to Sunday evening (U.S.
Pacific Time), so get your name in early. Given sufficient volume, I'll
promote this to Guido just before I leave; otherwise, I'll wait 'til
Sunday night to finish compiling names.


From nobody at nowhere.near.here  Thu Aug 12 04:06:21 2004
From: nobody at nowhere.near.here (Vladimir Konrad)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:06:21 +0100
Subject: What happened to initd.org
Message-ID: <411b24f9$0$15884$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com>

I am looking for psycopg (PostgreSQL adapted for Python) for Fedora Core 2
and the source web site (initd.org) is down second day in a row.

Any idea what happened?




From CousinStanley at HotMail.Com  Thu Aug 12 11:10:43 2004
From: CousinStanley at HotMail.Com (Cousin Stanley)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:10:43 -0700
Subject: Pyhton Interpreter Startup time
References: <mailman.1556.1092304607.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<AK2dnejSUMm394bcRVn-iw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <2o1fbjF5rbsvU1@uni-berlin.de>

Peter Hansen wrote .... 

> Neil Benn wrote:
> 
>>          I'm looking at a small app which would need a very quick
>> startup time for the Python interpreter.  It doesn't do much (copying
>> and caching of files, no GUI) but I need the Python interpreter to start
>> up very quickly (<1 second on a Windows box).
> 
> What kind of machine do you have?
> 
> On mine, Python starts up in about 0.06 seconds...
> 
> This primitive test shows these results on a Windows XP machine
> (it won't work with Windows 98 as it can't chain commands on the
> command line like that, but you could but it in a batch file).
> 
> c:\>echo. | time & python -c "import time; print time.time()"
> The current time is:  8:59:59.67
> Enter the new time:
> 1092315599.73
> 
> This is a fairly fast machine (Athlon 2500+) but I really
> doubt slower machines would take much longer than 1 second
> unless they are *really* old.
> 
> -Peter

  This variation on Peter's timing
  is from a 5-year-old 250 MHz Compaq
  running Linux/Debian ...

  sk at cpq1 :  ~/c  $ ./gtod & python -c "import time ;  
  print '    Python ....' , time.time()"
[1] 1677

    Number of seconds ......... 1092323003
    Number of microseconds .... 194433
    Time zone ................. 420
    Daylight savings time ..... 0

    Python .... 1092323003.36


-- 
Cousin Stanley
Human Being
Phoenix, Arizona


From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Fri Aug 20 15:24:30 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:24:30 -0400
Subject: My only complaint about Python
In-Reply-To: <86d61nay8v.fsf@stronzo.brainbot.com>
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<86d61nay8v.fsf@stronzo.brainbot.com>
Message-ID: <Jr6dnayqR49w0rvcRVn-gA@giganews.com>

Ralf Schmitt wrote:


> You can build modules using msys/mingw. Instructions can be found at
> http://sebsauvage.net/python/mingw.html

works out great! I didn't even need to do step 3 (tweaking distutils).

thanks for the pointer.

Istvan.





From albalmer at att.net  Thu Aug 26 11:58:00 2004
From: albalmer at att.net (Alan Balmer)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:58:00 -0700
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<2a56f6a3.0408252257.4f1f92e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <j22si0d0dic5cjnmffvdr5stjmtf5qvn0m@4ax.com>

On 25 Aug 2004 23:57:24 -0700, spam_depository2004 at yahoo.com (Johnny)
wrote:

>xah at xahlee.org (Xah Lee) wrote in message news:<7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a at posting.google.com>...
>
>> How can we prevent heinous cults then? Stop bending truths. Education
>> and rationalism. I'm starting my own cult to exterminate morons on
>> this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl.
>
>I bet Larry Wall's life insurance premiums just skyrocketed. BTW, what
>does this have to do with Lisp? We are more of a therapy and support
>group than a cult.

That's fortunate, since Xah Lee obviously needs those services.

-- 
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
removebalmerconsultingthis at att.net


From jaydonnell at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 25 12:29:12 2004
From: jaydonnell at yahoo.com (Jay Donnell)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 09:29:12 -0700
Subject: urllib hangs
References: <a6fdfd6b.0408230902.2afc0e08@posting.google.com>
	<2p35phFg2vehU1@uni-berlin.de> <cghotg$v16$1@online.de>
Message-ID: <a6fdfd6b.0408250829.55918651@posting.google.com>

Performance isn't an issue with this script. It runs in the background
from a cron  job. It just needs to finish before the day is over which
it easily does :)
It currently runs through ~20,000 urls which it does in about 3 hours.
It should be faster now that it times out.

If I had used threads at first I probably wouldn't have noticed that
it wasn't timing out on a few urls.

Benjamin Niemann <b.niemann at betternet.de> wrote in message news:<cghotg$v16$1 at online.de>...
> Bernd Kaiser wrote:
> 
> > I also would use a few Threads, they will speed up your script.
> He didn't mention any performance issues. Don't try to optimize for 
> speed before you have a valid complaint about the program being to slow 
> - especially if optimization involves threads!


From pink at odahoda.de  Mon Aug 23 13:48:06 2004
From: pink at odahoda.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:48:06 +0200
Subject: urllib hangs
In-Reply-To: <a6fdfd6b.0408230902.2afc0e08@posting.google.com>
References: <a6fdfd6b.0408230902.2afc0e08@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgdaoh$1gn$01$1@news.t-online.com>

Jay Donnell wrote:
> This is a basic version of my code
> 
> for url in urls:
>     fp = urllib.urlopen(url)
>     lines = fp.readlines()
> 
>     #print lines
>     for line in lines:
>         #print line
>         if(reUrl.search(line)):
>             print 'found'
>             return 1
>         else:
>             print 'not found'
>             return 0
> 
> this hangs occasionally for some certain url's. If I do a ctrl-c
> (linux) it will move on to the next url. How can I get this to timeout
> and move on to the next url.
since 2.3 there's socket.setdefaulttimeout(), this should to the job:

import socket
socket.setdefaulttimeout(10)
# throw socket.timeout exception after 10s,
# default is to wait a infinitly (or at least a very, very long time...)

For older python versions, ask google for timeoutsocket.py


From skip at pobox.com  Mon Aug 30 17:31:19 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:31:19 -0500
Subject: xml.dom.minidom - documentElement vs. childNodes
In-Reply-To: <ch03lt$soa$01$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <mailman.2621.1093888223.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ch03lt$soa$01$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <16691.40103.319598.899676@montanaro.dyndns.org>

In response to:

    >> I'm getting somewhat painfully acquainted with xml.dom.minidom.  What
    >> is the relationship between its documentElement attribute and its
    >> childNodes list?  I thought XML documents consisted of a single,
    >> possibly compound, node.  Why is a list of childNodes needed?

Peter provided this interpreter session:

    >>> import xml.dom.minidom as md
    >>> dom = md.parseString("""<?xml version="1.0" ?><!--comment--><root/>""")
    >>> dom.childNodes
    [<DOM Comment node "comment">, <DOM Element: root at 0x4038c1ac>]

So a document can have multiple nodes.  It appears they can only have a
single Element node though:

    >>> dom = md.parseString("""<?xml version="1.0" ?><!--comment--><root/><root2/>""")
    Traceback (most recent call last):
      File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
      File "/Users/skip/local/lib/python2.4/xml/dom/minidom.py", line 1925, in parseString
        return expatbuilder.parseString(string)
      File "/Users/skip/local/lib/python2.4/xml/dom/expatbuilder.py", line 940, in parseString
        return builder.parseString(string)
      File "/Users/skip/local/lib/python2.4/xml/dom/expatbuilder.py", line 223, in parseString
        parser.Parse(string, True)
    ExpatError: junk after document element: line 1, column 43
    ...

I guess the documentElement attribute of the dom refers to that lone Element
node.

Thanks,

Skip


From telcom_sage at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  2 22:46:19 2004
From: telcom_sage at yahoo.com (Brian Leair)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 19:46:19 -0700
Subject: Rebinding variable, despite global statement
Message-ID: <aeca1d18.0408021846.b2a04cc@posting.google.com>

I am using "from MyModule import *", (yes, yes, I know)

MyModule has a variable "g_my_var" at the "global" scope.

In the code that performs the import, I have a function that has the
statement
"global g_my_var". Despite this, when I try to assign to g_my_var it
appears I am rebound to a different object.
Beyond philosophical arguments about not using a "global" variable, is
there a real reason why I can't assign to the global "g_my_var". I'm
using python 2.3.2.

One workaround is to place getter/setters in MyModule, but I was still
surprised by this behavior. 




----------------------- MyModule.py -----------------------------
g_my_var = 142

def UtilityFunction ():
	print "Inside UtilityFunction", g_my_var
	print "Inside UtilityFunction Id is", id (g_my_var)
	return

----------------------- MyProgram.py -----------------------------
from MyModule import *

def ProgramFunction ():
	global g_my_var
	UtilityFunction ()
	print "In ProgramFunction", g_my_var
	print "In ProgramFunction Id is", id (g_my_var)
	print "Now assigning a value of 42 in ProgramFunction."
	g_my_var = 42
	print "After assignment, in ProgramFunction", g_my_var
	print "After assignment, in ProgramFunction Id is", id (g_my_var)
	UtilityFunction ()
	return

print "Excuting Main Program"
UtilityFunction ()
ProgramFunction ()

=============== Output ======================
Excuting Main Program
Inside UtilityFunction 142
Inside UtilityFunction Id is 7625912
Inside UtilityFunction 142
Inside UtilityFunction Id is 7625912
In ProgramFunction 142
In ProgramFunction Id is 7625912
Now assigning a value of 42 in ProgramFunction.
After assignment, in ProgramFunction 42
After assignment, in ProgramFunction Id is 8008553
Inside UtilityFunction 142
Inside UtilityFunction Id is 7625912


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug  9 19:39:27 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 19:39:27 -0400
Subject: decorators as a special case of an @ operator?
In-Reply-To: <87fz6wgkgl.fsf@uwo.ca>
References: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>	<87llgocrgq.fsf@uwo.ca>
	<DdSdnQot5MbxAIrcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>	<87d620cld8.fsf@uwo.ca>
	<I_OdnYWJRvrPJorcRVn-qw@powergate.ca> <87fz6wgkgl.fsf@uwo.ca>
Message-ID: <_OidnXjfbfmtloXcRVn-iA@powergate.ca>

Dan Christensen wrote:

> Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> writes:
>>Very likely, as is usual with Python, to avoid implicitly
>>assuming something that could well be wrong, thus failing
>>in a possibly very hard to find way, without warning.
>>
>>x = a_very_long_expression +
>>some_function_that_might_return_a_value()
>>
>>Now, was the first line a typo, with a missing extra value,
>>or was it really intended to add the result of the function
>>call on the second line?
> 
> Good point.  What if python did automatic continuation in this
> situation only if the second line was further indented?

I like. :-)  Don't know if it's been considered, but given
that it requires two distinct mistakes on the part of the
programmer, one after the other, it would be hard to argue
that it would happen often.  The indentation part fits nicely
with Python in general.

By the way, you do know that instead of a backslash, lots
of us use parentheses around multi-line expressions?  It
works fine, doesn't seem as ugly as \.

-Peter


From fumanchu at amor.org  Wed Aug  4 17:19:48 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 14:19:48 -0700
Subject: Finding all time periods for a given interval within a daterange
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022DDD@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Tim Churches wrote:
> On Thu, 2004-08-05 at 03:09, Robert Brewer wrote:
> > Look at my 'recur' module and see if it fits your requirements:
> > 
> > http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/index.html
> > 
> > Start with the Recurrence class and play with it--then dig 
> deeper if you
> > need to.
> 
> Robert,
> 
> How is the above code licensed?

Anything on that page is public domain. Use it as you see fit.


Robert Brewer


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Mon Aug 23 10:39:58 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:39:58 GMT
Subject: J2 paper 0.2.1
References: <mailman.2201.1093271860.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2lnWc.9731$Jn5.5247@fe1.texas.rr.com>

"Robert Brewer" <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote in message
news:mailman.2201.1093271860.5135.python-list at python.org...
Colin J. Williams wrote:
> One nit picking comment on Robert Brewer's document: An
> annotation is a
> transformation of a function, as a change to the flow of control is.

I'd like someone to analyze that further. "Transform", like the word
"change", can mean almost anything in English. However, I find the use
of the term in programs to generally mean either coerce/convert/cast
between types, or some other mechanism whereby one object is supplied,
and another object returned. That is, "transform" affects Being/"is" as
opposed to Attribute/"has".

However, neither your "gut feeling" nor mine about the issue is
enough--we need a more rigorous heuristic to decide. Finding precedent
would be a good start, if anyone wants to try.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org




From tzot at sil-tec.gr  Sat Aug 21 15:38:57 2004
From: tzot at sil-tec.gr (Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 22:38:57 +0300
Subject: unicodedata name for \u000a
References: <mailman.2120.1093116249.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <049fi0hadn2ic7sv6bg4pn81tt0rbvcvhf@4ax.com>

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:24:04 +0200, rumours say that Ken Beesley
<ken.beesley at xrce.xerox.com> might have written:

[snip]

>unicodedata.name(u"\u000a")
>
>I get
>
>Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
>ValueError: no such name
>
>There is, of course, a Unicode name for \u000a,
>which is 'LINE FEED' or perhaps 'LINE FEED (A)'.
>
>Is there a gap in unicodedata? or in my understanding?

It seems that all control characters (u"\u0000" to u"\u001f") have no
names in unicodedata.  Don't know if this is an omission (ie bug) or
intentional.
-- 
TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best,
"Tssss!" --Brad Pitt as Achilles in unprecedented Ancient Greek


From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 12 23:12:56 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:12:56 -0400
Subject: decorator syntax polling suggestion
In-Reply-To: <411BF3FC.71051A6F@alcyone.com>
References: <d11dcfba.0408121252.7690a43a@posting.google.com>
	<411BF3FC.71051A6F@alcyone.com>
Message-ID: <CISdnRfssu4lrIHcRVn-ow@powergate.ca>

Erik Max Francis wrote:

> So only people who are dissastisfied with the proposal are likely to
> vote, and indeed that seems to be the case.  

That seems to be a perfect situation then.  Why do we need
votes from people who are happy with the @pie syntax?  It's
already in Python.

On the other, if there are people who are dissatisfied with
@pie, they can vote, use the results to help them focus
their energies on the most likely alternate candidate(s),
and finally present a united front saying "uh, @pie
sucks, and we have a wide consensus that syntax XXXX
would be much better for these reasons..."

Wouldn't that make sense?

-Peter


From peter at engcorp.com  Sun Aug 22 08:34:41 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 08:34:41 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WE
	DONE?
In-Reply-To: <10igvr2d1hlgmc9@news.supernews.com>
References: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<10igvr2d1hlgmc9@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <p4qdnb7vwYX6D7XcRVn-tA@powergate.ca>

John Roth wrote:

> Now that I've had a chance to look at the syntax, you can count
> me mildly in favor of J2. (I haven't voted yet.) It's an extra line,
> but I think the explicitness outweighs the vertical space it
> takes up.

Although I'm not sure it was implemented this way, I
believe there may be an intent to support the usual
sort of one-line version as this (using an alternate
keyword instead of "decorate" which now seems doomed):

     using: staticmethod
     def foo(bar, baz):
         pass

That makes it no extra lines, but still explicit and Pythonic
in nature.

(Michael, was that how you implemented the latest?)

-Peter


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Aug 18 19:30:56 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 19:30:56 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<du7wtzwfb8b.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi> <cg0ju9$97s$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<cg0mj5$pme$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>
Message-ID: <cg0org$h9j$1@panix2.panix.com>

In article <cg0mj5$pme$1 at atlantis.news.tpi.pl>,
Jarek Zgoda  <jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl> wrote:
>Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> pisze:
>
>>>I'm also optimistic about retiring with Python, because *everyone* is
>>>going to retire with Python in 2044 :-).
>> 
>> 2038
>
>2036

What's special about 2036?

(2038-1-19 is the 32-bit Unix date rollover point.)
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Fri Aug  6 10:15:38 2004
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 07:15:38 -0700
Subject: [Newby question] List comprehension
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1274.1091799582.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1274.1091799582.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <411395a6$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

Batista, Facundo wrote:

> [Eelco Hoekema]
> #- def song(f):
> #-     (name, ext) = os.path.splitext(f)
> #-     return ext.lower() == '.mp3'
> files = []
> for (root, dir, files) in os.walk(os.path.abspath('.')):
> 	mp3files = filter(song, files)
> 	if mp3files:
> 		files.append((root, mp3files))
> 
Iwouldn't bother with the funny song construction:
     files = []
     for root, dirs, files in os.walk(os.path.abspath('.')):
         mp3files = [name for name in files
                     if name.lower().endswith('.mp3')]
         if mp3files:
             files.append((root, mp3files))

-- 
-Scott David Daniels
Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org


From ruses at users.ch  Mon Aug  9 09:06:43 2004
From: ruses at users.ch (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Elveto=2C_artiste-ing=E9nieur_en_n=E9motech?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?nique=22?=)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 15:06:43 +0200
Subject: Paul Graham on Python hackers
References: <3064b51d.0408061127.32536826@posting.google.com>
	<n3fRc.191$%y3.3116@news4.e.nsc.no>
	<m2y8kqi2hy.fsf@mycroft.actrix.gen.nz>
	<E6FRc.2626$xr6.230@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <411776E3.30800@users.ch>

Bryan Olson wrote:
> 
> Though he compares well, overall, to people who answer
> rhetorical questions.
> 

I disagree : the most intelligent answers, usually fit
questions that look rhetorical in isolation.



From mensanator at aol.com  Tue Aug 31 12:36:11 2004
From: mensanator at aol.com (mensanator at aol.com)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 09:36:11 -0700
Subject: about presicion
Message-ID: <ch29dr$25h@odah37.prod.google.com>

Alex Martelli wrote:
> mensanator at aol.com <mensanator at aol.com> wrote:
>    ...
> > > > I just tried it and found out it's not compatible with gmpy.
> > >
> > > By "it" do you mean Decimal, or Python 2.4 alpha 2?
> >
> > By "it", I meant gmpy 1.0 and Python 2.4. Trying to import the
> > module says it can't use the Python23.dll.
>
> _Any_ binary extension Python module compiled for Python 2.3 cannot
even
> load (on Windows) with Python 2.4 -- this has always been true on
> Windows between any two releases of Python and will presumably
continue
> to be so for the foreseeable future.

What I meant was the OP can't compare Decimal and gmpy unless he has
a version of gmpy that runs in 2.4. Or has a version of Decimal that
runs in 2.3.

>
> This doesn't mean that Python 2.4 "is not compatible with gmpy" or
> viceversa: it just means you obviously need to use a gmpy binary (pyd
> file) compiled for the version of Python you're using.  Just as it
would
> be the case for any other binary extension module whatsoever.

I didn't mean it wasn't compatible. I meant you can't use the
2.3 version of gmpy in the 2.4 alpha that's currently available,
so I can't experiment with 2.4 because all my interesting programs
are dependant on gmpy. Not everyone is a professional software
developer, some of us ignorant users need to be told that.

>
> Unfortunately, compiling any binary extension module on Windows for
> Python 2.4 requires Microsoft's very latest C++ compiler -- I do not
own
> a copy, nor do I have any PC normally running Windows XP, which is
> required to run that compiler.  Until Pyhon 2.3, I made do with a
> Windows 98 session running under win4lin on one of my Linux machines,
> and good old Microsoft Visual C++ 6 -- but such limited resources are
> not sufficient any longer to compile Python binary extension modules
for
> Python 2.4.  Since in terms of income-making (as well as leisure;-) I
> work by now only on MacOSX, Linux, and OpenBSD machines, I am not
going
> to buy a PC loaded with Microsoft software just to be able to donate
> precompiled Python binary extension modules to Windows users.

How feasible is it that the end user could compile it himself?
Would the command line c compiler from the MS SDK suffice or do you
have to purchase the full .NET package? Would the source files need
a lot of tweaking?

>
>
> > > I think gmpy should
> > > build happily with the latter,
> >
> > I'm using the pre-built Windows binary distribution. I wouldn't
> > know how to re-build it. I assume that when Python 2.4 is final,
> > I newer compatible version of gmpy will become available.
>
> Not by magic -- I hope somebody out there owns all the needed
Microsoft
> software and is interested in compiling gmpy for Windows under Python
> 2.4 and making it available, but it won't be me.

Unfortunately, us ignorant end users depend on the magic that is
supplied by others. But that doesn't mean we're unwilling to help.
I had no clue that there won't be any more Windows gmpy updates
unless someone volunteers to help.

I've got an XP machine and given a choice between abandoning Python
completely and getting a copy of the MS compiler...

Of course, I realize that handing someone a box of wrenches doesn't
make them a mechanic. But we always have this newsgroup. I would
rather try and fail than see gmpy whither away from lack of interest.

>
>
> > > and interoperate sensibly with Decimal
> > > anyway -- as gmpy's author I'd be quite happy to fix gmpy if it's
> > broken
> > > in either respect.
> >
> > Were you aware that there is apparently a memory leak in the
> > gmpy.divm() function? Calling it several million time caused my
> > computer to run out of virtual memeory. Luckily, I was able to
> > work around it using the gmpy.invert() which didn't consume any
> > memory regardless of how many times it was called.
>
> No, I was not aware of that -- I'll look into it, thanks.
> 
> 
> Alex



From jeffbarish at starband.net  Tue Aug 31 17:31:31 2004
From: jeffbarish at starband.net (Jeffrey Barish)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 15:31:31 -0600
Subject: Beeping the console
Message-ID: <ch2qnk$9ci$1@sea.gmane.org>

What is the easiest way to beep the console from a Python program (i.e.,
to do the same thing as echo -e \a)?
-- 
Jeffrey Barish



From pepijn.kenter at nospam.dlr.nl  Mon Aug 23 04:32:14 2004
From: pepijn.kenter at nospam.dlr.nl (Pepijn Kenter)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:32:14 +0200
Subject: Array of objects in numpy.
References: <2olrdjFbgdd0U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<qnk657cauoi.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
Message-ID: <2oto8rFeivqmU1@uni-berlin.de>

David M. Cooke wrote:

> At some point, Pepijn Kenter <pepijn.kenter at nospam.dlr.nl> wrote:
> 
>> Hi all.
>>
>> I'm new to python and want to use it for an assignment.
>>
>> I have succesfully implemented a galois field class including the
>> _repr__, __mul__, __div__, __add__ and __sub__ methods.
> 
> including __r* variants too?
> 
>> Basically a galois field is
>> an integer modulo a prime number. Now I want to make a matrix of these
>> galois field objects using the numpy library. Constructing, printing and
>> multiplying arrays of GF's works fine. However there are several
>> functions that give problems, most importantly: dot, repeat.
>>
>> I'm affraid I've forgotten my memmory stick with the code and error
>> messages :-(, so I have to keep my question general.
> 
> I'm shooting in the dark here, as I presume you're using Numeric, as
> opposed to numarray.
> 
>> If I recall correctly,
>> the repeat function complained that my GF object didn't have the
>> __getelem__ method implemented (IMO this should not be necessary),
> 
> My guess is that you're using Numeric.repeat incorrectly. Note that for
> Numeric.repeat(a, repeats), a has to be array-like (more specifically,
> array(a) can work).
> 

No, I'm using numarray.

>> the dot function complained about an unsupported type.
> 
> Don't know about that one. Maybe if you haven't added __rmul__ or
> __radd__ to your class.
> 

Thanks, I'll give it a try.

Pepijn.





From jonaskoelker at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 13 08:54:24 2004
From: jonaskoelker at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Jonas_K=F6lker?=)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:54:24 +0200
Subject: !wtf ellipsis
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.13.12.54.24.553466@yahoo.com>

so, I've read the manuals, done a few hacks, read the quick reference.
however, one thing still eludes me:

what (the hell) is Ellipsis?
what's it good for?
how do I use it; how does the interpreter use it?

... thanks everybody,

Jonas K?lker

----
[ValueError: ASCII art sig block too ugly to live]



From tedlandis at gmail.com  Wed Aug 18 14:28:59 2004
From: tedlandis at gmail.com (Ted)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 11:28:59 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <73151219.0408181028.64e51371@posting.google.com>

"Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<jQHUc.1529$2L3.505 at newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....

46... 1 year Python... 26 years pretty much everything else. I'd like
to retire with Python, it's that good.


From ville at spammers.com  Sun Aug 22 16:06:29 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 23:06:29 +0300
Subject: On consensus decision-making (was Re: Alternative decorator
	syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WEDONE?)
References: <mailman.2153.1093185119.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<z-adnRDpSpoTJrXcRVn-iw@powergate.ca>
	<du7n00ngmeh.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>
	<v8shi09cmrtp8s9cumhsjth617494k4j7u@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <du7hdqvaqey.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Arthur" == Arthur  <ajsiegel at optonline.com> writes:

    Arthur> On 22 Aug 2004 19:36:38 +0300, Ville Vainio <ville at spammers.com>
    Arthur> wrote:

    >> 
    >> Obviously people who don't want any syntax at all should be ignored in
    >> the consensus building process...

    Arthur> I hate to contribute to a change in tone to what has been a pretty
    Arthur> civil controversy, all things considered, and Anthony's private hate
    Arthur> mail notwithstanding.

    Arthur> But that to me is a stupid remark.

The reason to ignore "no syntax" proponents is the fact that the whole
purpose of this excercise is to come up with an alternative syntax to
@pie. Guido doesnt't need a consensus about whether we want a
decorator syntax - he wants a consensus about an alternative
syntax. What is going in is either @pie or the syntax proposed by the
community. No syntax proposed by community -> @pie goes in, for better
or worse.

    Arthur> I have heard implicit and explicit threats on python-dev
    Arthur> in the case no new syntax made it into 2.4 - assumedly by
    Arthur> people who *really* hate some extra typing.  It is not
    Arthur> unreasonable to assume that vehemence is

Threats? Isn't that a tad dramatic?

Bottom line is - decorators are going in. Now it's just about
syntax. You'll never need to use them in your own code. I never use
backticks, which I think you can agree are a worse idea than many of
the proposed decorator syntaxes put together.

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From grv575 at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 30 19:24:41 2004
From: grv575 at hotmail.com (grv575)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 16:24:41 -0700
Subject: profiler
References: <cgg2mn$87r@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <144d0df.0408301524.73a6827a@posting.google.com>

OK but how do you use this newly built python binary?  I tried just
running the interpreter but didn't see a gmon.out file or whatever in
my current directory on exit.  (./configure --prefix=/usr
--enable-profiling; make; make install is all that's needed right?)

"Brett C." <brett at python.org> wrote in message news:<cgg2mn$87r at odbk17.prod.google.com>...
> As of Python 2.4 you  can also compile in support for C-level profiling
> into the interpreter (--enable-profiling).  See the in-dev docs
> (http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/) for details.


From Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU  Mon Aug 23 11:10:53 2004
From: Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU (Michael J. Fromberger)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:10:53 -0400
Subject: Has anyone implemented BASIC in Python?
References: <2oo13eFcj548U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<o6eii0h19pljd16shbfld7jdj7l2m7tc9m@4ax.com>
	<2ot30hFeek8nU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<9h0ji0lvc0be65nuvcugaa3vsq5mcl3ck8@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <Michael.J.Fromberger-900D4F.11105323082004@localhost>

In article <9h0ji0lvc0be65nuvcugaa3vsq5mcl3ck8 at 4ax.com>,
 Andrea Griffini <agriff at tin.it> wrote:

> Writing parsers, interpreters and compilers is a lot simpler than
> many do think. Of course the evil is in the details and getting
> something that comes even just close to (just for example ;-) )
> python is a *LOT* harder.
> 
> [...]
> 
> I never use yacc/lex, I just prefer hand-coding the parsers.
> 
> I never felt as pressing the problem of the speed of parsing
> (I've read that this is one main superiority of shift-reduce
> parsers). An hand-coded recursive descent parser is in my
> opinion very easy to write... and very easy to maintain.

For simple, single-purpose languages, I am inclined to agree that 
hand-written parsers are easy enough to write and maintain.  However, 
when you are dealing with a more complex general-purpose language, and 
one whose grammar needs to evolve over time, then I think a 
parser-generator is a much better solution by far.

The chief trouble in maintaining a hand-written recursive descent parser 
is that the grammar for the input language is hidden inside the 
implementation.  The author of the code can usually pick it out, but 
over time, even the author may find it difficult (and yes, I am speaking 
from a certain degree of first-hand experience in this matter).

In contrast, the grammars consumed by most parser-generators are 
explicitly written out as grammars, in the spirit (of not the form) of 
BNF notation.  If you want to make a change to the grammar (and thereby, 
the parser), you can easily see how the changes will affect the rest of 
the language, and a new parser can be created quickly and easily, simply 
by re-running the parser generator.  The only lines of code you need to 
touch are the places where your change affects the translation, and that 
is often quite minimal.

Furthermore, naive implementation of recursive descent is fraught with a 
few subtle perils to trip the novice and the unwary.  For instance, you 
must carefully avoid left-recursive productions, or your parser may not 
terminate.  Also, error-handling is tricky in recursive descent, because 
much of the parser's state is implicit in stack frames that must be 
correctly unwound when an error forces you to bail out.  If you're 
writing in a language (like Python) with good automatic memory 
management, the latter is less of an issue, but recursive descent 
parsers written in languages without automatic memory management, like C 
and C++, must contend mightily with this.

Of course, there is no silver bullet, but the availability of good LR(1) 
and LALR(1) parser generators should not be discounted, even if the 
theory behind them seems to be slightly complicated, on the surface.

Cheers,
-M

-- 
Michael J. Fromberger             | Lecturer, Dept. of Computer Science
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~sting/  | Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA


From tzot at sil-tec.gr  Wed Aug 18 11:52:26 2004
From: tzot at sil-tec.gr (Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:52:26 +0300
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<mailman.1857.1092832475.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bou6i0hfbrdblmepdpir8b6tkrbaa26h92@4ax.com>

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 08:34:08 -0400, rumours say that Jeremy Jones
<zanesdad at bellsouth.net> might have written:

>Is this a marketing survey?
>
>age: 31
>marital status: married - have 1 wife
>parental status: 2 children
>canine status: have 1 dog
>feline status: 1 cat
>employment status:  (very) thankfully have a (good) job
>automobile status: 2 cars
>sanity status: nearly none

You forgot to give us address and credit card details.  Thanks in
advance for your reply.
-- 
TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best,
"Tssss!" --Brad Pitt as Achilles in unprecedented Ancient Greek


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Aug 17 00:59:05 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 00:59:05 -0400
Subject: Python secure?
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk><ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com><ZKRTc.3710$bJ2.23892@news1.mts.net>	<cforh6$qiv$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk><mailman.1705.1092625838.5135.python-list@python.org><2xXTc.3775$bJ2.24876@news1.mts.net>	<NIydnd-skK0q173cRVn-ow@powergate.ca><mailman.1751.1092678567.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<rzeUc.3995$bJ2.26585@news1.mts.net>
Message-ID: <cfs3aq$oq2$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Reid Nichol" <rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rzeUc.3995$bJ2.26585 at news1.mts.net...
> And because some M$ employee did something sloppy it is an implication
> that C is bad.

You said that, not me.

> I have to say the responsibility is the programmers, *not* the language.

The fact that most road accidents are the responsibility of some driver
does not change the fact that good highway engineering -- lane lines, guard
rails, proper grading and sight around curves, and traffic lights, etc -- 
reduces the number of accidents.

In any case, what I wrote was in the context of a beginning programmer
asking if Python is secure -- in particular. as secure as compiled C.  All
the previous answers were in term of source code hiding and copyrights.  I
wrote to suggest that he also consider security in terms of ease of
shooting oneself in the foot, and that in that regard, C is less secure
rather than more secure.  Despite your out-of-context sniping, I believe
this suggestion to be appropriate and the statement to be correct.

To put it another way, what I wrote was like advising a beginning driver to
think twice before driving on a curvy mountain road lacking center lines
and guard rails.

> And what language is Python programmed in... oh yah, C.  Perhaps people
> shouldn't talk about how poorly secure C and then go off to how secure
> Python is when Python is written in C.  Houses built on sand...

More out of context sniping, which I anticipated ...

As we both said, C is safer in the hands of expert, experienced, careful
programmers.  People like you claim to be and people like Guido and Tim
Peters.  They program in C so we have less need to.  And I am grateful for
that.

Terry J. Reedy





From mwh at python.net  Mon Aug 23 10:56:44 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:56:44 GMT
Subject: Overriding logical operators?
References: <mailman.2095.1093066795.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m3d61hkimr.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Andrew Durdin <adurdin at gmail.com> writes:

> In Python, you can override the behaviour of most operators for a
> class, by defining __add__, __gt__, and the other special object
> methods.
> 
> I noticed that, although there are special methods for most operators,
> they are conspicuously absent for the logical "or" and "and". 

That's because they're not operators, they're flow control constructs.
Well, maybe that's not a helpful answer, but it's one you haven't had
yet :-)

> Would it be possible to allow overriding the logical operators, with
> the caveat that overriding it would prevent short-circuiting?

I think this would be a foul abomination.  But maybe that's just me.
(I don't really approve of operator overloading either).

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Ability to type on a computer terminal is no guarantee of sanity,
  intelligence, or common sense. 
                                 -- Gene Spafford's Axiom #2 of Usenet


From me at privacy.net  Mon Aug 16 15:18:44 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Tobias Pfeiffer)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 19:18:44 GMT
Subject: Stopping a socket.accept() method
References: <2o9mlbF8ff8rU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<huCdnQEib_bV2L3cRVn-pQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <2ocfkjF8v1qeU1@uni-berlin.de>

Hi!

On 16 Aug 2004, Peter Hansen wrote:

> Tobias Pfeiffer wrote:
>
> 2. You can use a non-blocking socket and select(), which
> will allow a periodic wakeup to check a flag that is set
> by whatever mechanism you want to tell the prog to stop.

And how exactly do you propose to code this "non-blocking socket"? I've 
no idea how to realize that? Could you maybe give me a little example of 
how to work with socket.accept() and select()?

Bye
Tobias

-- 
please send any mail to botedesschattens(at)web(dot)de


From olivierthiery at free.fr  Mon Aug  9 15:05:14 2004
From: olivierthiery at free.fr (Olivier Thiery)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 21:05:14 +0200
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
	<278de0e.0408090935.6d758a5d@posting.google.com>
	<i0ffh01guveqks1n854c2g4l75dbdg57rr@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <4117c80d$0$3158$626a14ce@news.free.fr>

Hello,

> - Like wxGlade, Boa is based on wxWidgets, but doesn't seem to have a
> GUI builder. You just add widgets to a list, and I assume you have to

I'm afraid it's wrong: Boa does include a (pretty usable) GUI builder,
although it (oddly) better works on windows than linux. It handles even
sizers.

> set the coordinates and properties through code only. Also, Boa hasn't
> been updated since April 2003

Wrong again: the last official release is 0.2.3 (see sf.net), but you can
search google for a more recent downloadable 0.2.8 tgz.

Boa may seem difficult to understand at first, but the (short) doc is very
useful. You have to read it carefully first, especially the tutorial.

Olivier


From ramen at lackingtalent.com  Thu Aug 12 14:30:09 2004
From: ramen at lackingtalent.com (Dave Benjamin)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 18:30:09 -0000
Subject: PEP-0318
References: <41122FC2.1080608@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1251.1091764482.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4114152f@nntp.zianet.com>
	<roy-70A225.19463206082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<411421bf@nntp.zianet.com>
	<mailman.1459.1092154652.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<10hianhqvg1qc8d@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <slrnchnenq.jjp.ramen@lackingtalent.com>

In article <10hianhqvg1qc8d at news.supernews.com>, John Roth wrote:
> One additional use case for decorators: prototype object systems.
> I've been experimenting with Hans Nowak's system, and I am now
> quite looking forward to having a single decorator that will bind the
> function into an instance. For example:
> 
> @instancemethod(myinstance)
> def go(self, wordList):
>     ---stuff---
> 
> The result is that the function gets wrapped by new.instancemethod
> and bound into the instance that's bound to myinstance.

One possible implementation of such:

import new

def instancemethod(obj):
    def decorate(func):
        setattr(obj, func.func_name, new.instancemethod(func, obj))
        return func
    return decorate
                        
class Empty(object): pass
                        
o = Empty()
o.a = 5
o.b = 6
                        
@instancemethod(o)
def a_plus_b(self):
    return self.a + self.b                            

print o.a_plus_b()

-- 
  .:[ dave benjamin: ramen/[sp00] -:- spoomusic.com -:- ramenfest.com ]:.
         "talking about music is like dancing about architecture."


From ben at benlast.com  Thu Aug 19 01:49:30 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 06:49:30 +0100
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <20040818174601.GA3863@mirk.lan>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPGEFMCEAA.ben@benlast.com>

> From: python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org
> [mailto:python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org]On Behalf Of
> 67. My impression is that it easier to learn python when you are younger.
> egbert
I think the slowing down of the brain due to ageing is compensated for by
the increase in experience (one makes fewer of the same mistakes again) and
learning in how to learn :)
b



From robey at slash_dev_slash_random.org  Wed Aug 18 17:03:27 2004
From: robey at slash_dev_slash_random.org (Robey Holderith)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:03:27 -0500
Subject: Embedding Python in Python
References: <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
	<7xu0v0l2be.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<cg09ne$ma7$1@fred.mathworks.com>
	<7x3c2kkzn8.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<cg0bjf$78b$1@fred.mathworks.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.18.21.03.27.96687@slash_dev_slash_random.org>

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:44:47 +0000, JCM wrote:

> Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> JCM <joshway_without_spam at myway.com> writes:
>>> If you're concerned about security, another possibility is to parse
>>> the user's code and look for anything potentially dangerous.  You'll
>>> need to be aggressive, but I believe it's possible.  For example,
>>> disallow exec statements, the identifier "eval", any identifier of
>>> __this__ form, import statements, etc.  This is overly restrictive,
>>> but it will provide security.
> 
>> By the time you're done with all that, you may as well design a new
>> restricted language and interpret just that.
> 
>> Hint: 
>>   e = vars()['__builtins__'].eval
>>   print e('2+2')
> 
>> Even Java keeps getting new holes found, and Python is not anywhere
>> near Java when it comes to this kind of thing.
> 
> I don't think it's as difficult as you think.  Your snippet of code
> would be rejected by the rules I suggested.  You'd also want to
> prohibit other builtins like compile, execfile, input, reload, vars,
> etc.

I'm going to have to agree with Paul on this one.  I do not feel up to
the task of thinking of every possible variant of malicious code.  There
are far too many ways of writing the exact same thing.  I think it would
be much easier to write my own interpreter. 

-Robey




From franz04 at yahoo.fr  Tue Aug 17 11:32:32 2004
From: franz04 at yahoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?q?Francis=20Lavoie?=)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:32:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: problem when getting ftp file
Message-ID: <20040817153232.70132.qmail@web50108.mail.yahoo.com>

I'm new to python and I'm not sure if I use the ftplib
class correctly.

I made a programm to update a pseudo-dynamic site via
ftp. The site is a static html that include files
update by ftp. It create 2 files, and html and a .dat
file, which hold a easier to manipulate data.

first of all, when I start the application, it connect
to ftp, and get the .dat files on the ftp server to
stay up to date. Then modification are done to the
local file, when the application receive a update
request, it take the local file and update it to the
server.

The update work perfectly, but the part I get the file
from ftp cause me some trouble. The client app is run
on windows. To create the file and to read it, I use
open("myfile.dat").write and readlines, there's no
problem, but when I get a new file from ftp, the
return line disapear and readlines take the all the
file as one line.

To write the new file in ftp I use :
storlines("STOR", open("myfile.dat").read)
And to get it I use :
retrlines("RETR", open("myfile.dat").write)


If someone can guide me where to look to find a
solution, it will be appreciated.

Thank you


__________________________________________________________
L?che-vitrine ou l?che-?cran ?
magasinage.yahoo.ca


From norman.werner at student.uni-magdeburg.de  Mon Aug 30 04:47:12 2004
From: norman.werner at student.uni-magdeburg.de (norman werner)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 01:47:12 -0700
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<VJOdnfiBTci22rDcRVn-gg@adelphia.com>
	<aNidnUSV4-OK4rDcRVn-jA@powergate.ca>
	<b301fb47.0408260503.5dbb08f5@posting.google.com>
	<IP-dne7gas7GvbLcRVn-gw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <b301fb47.0408300047.3a8a77b1@posting.google.com>

> Well, let's see how your clear your mind was today.
> 
> Either it's a joke, in which case it is clear to all
> that it doesn't really mean troll, or it's not a joke
> in which case I obviously don't know Esperanto.
> 
>

I read it as an 'two-in-one'. 
A (not funny) joke about the troll and an infantile  sideremark about
eo spreading more half-truths.
"universal language" - Whats that? What is a universal language ...
Besides expressing basic wishes for  food, attention or love. And
where is/was the relation between the troll and eo?


> Here are the facts:
> 
> 1. It's a joke, as you surmised.
> 
> 2. I know Esperanto.

i read it _later_ . From youre joke it seemed more like you "heard of
esperanto".


So I hereby withdraw the accusation of stupidity - standing firm only
on the not-funny-front.



> Now can you perhaps see that your first comment in the poor
> translation of your own Esperanto is invalid and offensive?



Allright - it was not a translation - the error was to call it an
translation. But since only a extremly small minority of readers could
read both - it seemed  ok for me to change not the basic-message but
the way to express this message. E.g. I could not see the relevance
for a non-eo-speaker of eo having a x or not. So i changed this in the
"translation".

> By the way, to those not fluent in both languages, what this
> fellow really wrote was more along the lines of "Please do not
> joke about things you don't know about.  Xah Lee certainly --
> because Esperanto has no "x" -- is not Esperanto.  And your
> joke is merely stupid."

Yep. 

> 
> If you're going to accuse me of stupidity, please at least
> get your own translation and logic skills in working order
> first.

At least i was not the only who misunderstood you. 

And please; Since you elaborated on my "translation" - it's ok to
criticize.
But the same does not hold true for my logic-skill-malfunction - so
either do not diagnose it or elaborate more on it.


Norman


From max at alcyone.com  Fri Aug 13 02:41:29 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:41:29 -0700
Subject: decorator syntax polling suggestion
References: <d11dcfba.0408121252.7690a43a@posting.google.com>
	<411BF3FC.71051A6F@alcyone.com>
	<CISdnRfssu4lrIHcRVn-ow@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <411C6299.D5F71E12@alcyone.com>

Peter Hansen wrote:

> On the other, if there are people who are dissatisfied with
> @pie, they can vote, use the results to help them focus
> their energies on the most likely alternate candidate(s),
> and finally present a united front saying "uh, @pie
> sucks, and we have a wide consensus that syntax XXXX
> would be much better for these reasons..."
> 
> Wouldn't that make sense?

Yes, that would probably make the poll results more closely match up
with reality.  The problem is, that isn't the purpose of the poll as
stated.  On the contrary, they are used the certainly biased results of
the poll to show that the @decorator syntax is unwanted, which is highly
suspect.

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ No man who needs a monument ever ought to have one.
    -- Nathaniel Hawthorne


From Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU  Thu Aug 19 10:09:42 2004
From: Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU (Michael J. Fromberger)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:09:42 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
References: <mailman.1829.1092785390.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<65adnQrUKILiC7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1834.1092791633.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<m2vffgd6pu.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
	<mailman.1858.1092832530.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-6AF702.10114718082004@localhost>
	<mailman.1891.1092854353.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-FF646E.17492318082004@localhost>
	<mailman.1909.1092869465.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-F6FD2B.21140718082004@localhost>
	<mailman.1945.1092911723.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Michael.J.Fromberger-8D423C.10094219082004@localhost>

In article <mailman.1945.1092911723.5135.python-list at python.org>,
 Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Michael J. Fromberger wrote:
> > 
> > Oh, I see it just fine -- but I still disagree with the idea of 
> > including any such implicit magic in the language.  
> > 
> > In fact, I don't like some of the magic that is already there -- such 
> > as, for instance, the automatic mangling of class members whose names 
> > begin with a double underscore to get "private" semantics.  But that, at 
> > least, is easy to avoid, if one doesn't want to use it.
> > 
> 
> Unless of course you want a method to be private/semi-private.  How do 
> you feel about the way we can create/manipulate lists and dictionaries 
> using special (magical) syntax?  Why is that different (acceptable)?
> 
> 	x = [10, 20, 30]
> 
> is shorthand for what would be much more code in other languages. Is 
> that syntax ok but
> 
> 	def __iAmPrivate(): pass
> 
> isn't?  Why?

I'm glad you asked this question -- you have highlighted an important 
distinction we should all heed.  In short:  The special syntax for list 
construction (to use your example) is "explicit magic" rather than 
"implicit magic."

Use of a square-bracketed tuple for list construction is almost 
completely orthogonal to other language features (modulo indexing), it 
correlates well to other familiar notations for lists, and it improves 
the readability of the code without obscuring anything.  These are some 
key hallmarks of good syntax.

By contrast, the special leading-double-underscore convention for class 
members and the idea to identify instance, static, or class methods 
based on the name of their first parameter, are not even a visibly 
syntactic change.  Each of these ideas specially overloads the single 
most common programming-language operation -- interpretation of a 
variable name -- under particular circumstances.  This technique is (as 
far as I know) nearly unprecedented in other languages, so it would be 
surprising to most programmers.  Furthermore, I think it makes code less 
readable, by hiding important facts inside an implicit assumption about 
the content of non-keyword identifiers, which are otherwise never 
special.

Many people respond to this by saying, "The programmer has to be careful 
anyway, so what is one more thing?"  You could ask the same question 
about drivers and beer.  Little distractions add up to big mistakes.

Let me add that I do not intend to assert that all syntactic sugar is 
bad (even if, as Alan Perlis suggested, "syntactic sugar causes cancer 
of the semi-colon" :)   However, the simple fact is, unless there is a 
really good reason, we shouldn't make programmers (i.e., ourselves) 
memorize more special cases.  Going back to your example:  There is an 
excellent case for a compact and orthogonal list construction notation.  
There is no good case for magically overloading non-keyword identifiers 
in certain contexts -- especially when there is a better and more 
explicit way to do it.

Thank you for your good example, Paul.

Cheers,
-M

-- 
Michael J. Fromberger             | Lecturer, Dept. of Computer Science
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~sting/  | Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA


From godoy at ieee.org  Mon Aug 16 18:29:01 2004
From: godoy at ieee.org (Jorge Godoy)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:29:01 -0300
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<RGwTc.37687$js3.13758840@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<LIqdndnJz9N_pr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<slrnci0vhb.k3.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<nbudnY5S8Jl2Kb3cRVn-oQ@powergate.ca>
	<3064b51d.0408161354.618056ef@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <m34qn2n2du.fsf@g2ctech.com>

beliavsky at aol.com writes:

> ido: do i=1,n
>    ! some code
>    if (foo) exit ido ! exit outer loop
>    jdo: do j=1,n
>       ! some code
>       if (boo) exit jdo ! exit middle loop
>       do k=1,n
>          ! some code
>          if (goo) exit ! exit inner loop
>       end do
>    end do jdo
> end do ido

Just an attempt and trying to keep it like your code. 


>>> n = 10          # Just needed to run this...
>>> for i in xrange(1, n):
...     print 'i =', i      # some code...
...     if (i == 5): break  # exit outer loop
...     for j in xrange(1, n):
...         print 'j =', j       # some code...
...         if (j == 3): break   # exit middle loop
...         for k in xrange(1, n):
...             print 'k =', k        # some code...
...             if (k == 2): break    # exit inner loop
i = 1
j = 1
k = 1
k = 2
j = 2
k = 1
k = 2
j = 3
i = 2
j = 1
k = 1
k = 2
j = 2
k = 1
k = 2
j = 3
i = 3
j = 1
k = 1
k = 2
j = 2
k = 1
k = 2
j = 3
i = 4
j = 1
k = 1
k = 2
j = 2
k = 1
k = 2
j = 3
i = 5
>>>


By using "<=" one could have one more iteraction, if this is what is
done with your original code.


Be seeing you,
-- 
Godoy.     <godoy at ieee.org>


From ben at benlast.com  Thu Aug 19 03:00:00 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:00:00 +0100
Subject: Displaying ipa in python.exe
In-Reply-To: <000501c485aa$cf9e2940$8c42ab80@grimes1>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPAEFOCEAA.ben@benlast.com>

From: Burgel Rosa Maria Faehndrich
>I am having some trouble properly displaying unicode characters in
python.exe.
>print ur"\u0288"
>print ur"\u0288".encode('utf-8')
You don't say what environment (operating system, window type, etc) you're
running Python.exe under, though from the fact you say "python.exe" rather
than "python" I'd guess Windows.  Different versions of Windows have
different levels of support for Unicode, but if IDLE displays what you want,
I suspect you're on 2000/XP, which makes this more of a Windows question
than a Python one, but here we go anyway...

The Windows "console" (Start/Run.../cmd.exe) supports one "code page" at a
time.  Each code page interprets the 256 8-bit characters as a different set
of symbols.  None of them will support all Unicode characters.  You can
change the code page that a given console window is using via the CHCP
command.  CMD supports a "/U" switch, but that just controls the type of
output to a file or pipe (/U makes it unicode, /A makes it ANSI).

So, the short answer is that you cannot display arbitrary Unicode strings
via the console.  You can work out what code page the console is using, and
try and encode Unicode to strings in that encoding (myString.encode("cp850")
on my system here), but it may well not be able to show it.

regards
ben



From bac at OCF.Berkeley.EDU  Tue Aug 24 15:18:16 2004
From: bac at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Brett C.)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:18:16 -0700
Subject: profiler
In-Reply-To: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E53@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E53@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <412B9478.3090609@ocf.berkeley.edu>

Robert Brewer wrote:

> Brett C. wrote:
> 
>>As of Python 2.4 you  can also compile in support for C-level 
>>profiling
>>into the interpreter (--enable-profiling).  See the in-dev docs
>>(http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/) for details.
> 
> 
> Drool. Thanks for the news. Since the first Python optimization is often
> to stop calling Python functions (and inline instead), this'll be a big
> help. :)
> 

See, 2.4 is not just about decorators.  =)

And Nick Bastin deserves a good chunk of the thanks for the profiling 
work he did to get this added (the power of PyCON sprints  =) .

-Brett


From FBatista at uniFON.com.ar  Thu Aug 19 10:43:59 2004
From: FBatista at uniFON.com.ar (Batista, Facundo)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:43:59 -0300
Subject: newbie
Message-ID: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C77FD@escpl.tcp.com.ar>

[JASON JESSO]

#- The error I get is:
#- ./mkdir.py jason 0777
#- Traceback (most recent call last):
#-   File "./mkdir.py", line 31, in ?
#-     _mkdir( sys.argv[1], sys.argv[2] )
#-   File "./mkdir.py", line 25, in _mkdir
#-     os.mkdir( newdir, mode )
#- TypeError: an integer is required
#- 
#- When I convert the mode from a string to an octal with
#- oct(int(sys.argv[2])) the permissions are all screwed
#- up.
#- 
#- Any help?

Always reduce the problem to it simplest form:

>>> perm = "0777"
>>> oct(int(perm))
'01411'

Also always say what you receive, why you don't like it, and what you
expect.

And an useful "Subject" won't hurt.

Regards,

.	Facundo


From google at daishi.fastmail.fm  Fri Aug  6 03:08:04 2004
From: google at daishi.fastmail.fm (daishi)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 00:08:04 -0700
Subject: @decorators
Message-ID: <d22692a3.0408052234.7230fd74@posting.google.com>

For what it's worth:

As far as I know, the proposed @decorator syntax will be the first
time that two logical lines of python with the same indentation will
not be independent of one another. Previously, when looking at:

	some_python(code)
	and_some_more = stuff

there was no need to look at the the first line in order to know what
the second line meant/did (and vice versa). It would seem that the
cases when there are effects across multiple logical lines is captured
in compound statements:

"""
Compound statements contain (groups of) other statements; they affect
or control the execution of those other statements in some way.
""" -Python Reference Manual

My understanding of decorators is that they fit this definition.
One thing that I am not entirely clear about is whether decorators
are intended to be a compound statement themselves, or whether they
are meant to simply be extensions of current compound statements
such as function definition (and class definitions?)

In either case, however, it seems that the following should apply:

"""
Each clause header begins with a uniquely identifying keyword and ends
with a colon. A suite ... can be one or more indented statements on
subsequent lines.
""" -Python Reference Manual

In the first case where decorators form their own compound statement,
this would seem to imply the basic layout of:

@decorator:
    def foo():
        pass

(Whether that uniquely identifying keyword for decorators happens to
be spelled '@' is not important to me.)

In the second case where decorators are simply extensions of current
compound statements, the current wording of the Python Reference
Manual would seem to imply that for function definition the clause
header must begin with 'def'. I.e., the decorator should not come
before the def, and certainly not on a separate line. Beyond this,
however, for me it is not particularly important whether the
decorator comes before/after the function name/argument list, and
how it is delimited.

I guess the basic point that I am trying to make is that what I find
important is consistency with the basic visual layout of code promised
(IMHO) by python. I believe that this promise is violated by the
currently proposed decorator scheme.

d

PS: Although I believe the current view of the implementors is to view
decorators as an extension to function definition, I believe that the
separate compound statement view is fairly rich. As others have noted,
it can make identical decorations simpler:

@static,synchronized:
    def foo():
        pass
    def bar():
        pass


From aisaac at american.edu  Thu Aug 12 12:22:06 2004
From: aisaac at american.edu (Alan G Isaac)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:22:06 -0400
Subject: pretty print 2D arrays
Message-ID: <10hn65v5eltr65d@corp.supernews.com>

I figure someone must have done this nicely but
I can't find it. I'd like structured printing of 2D
arrays, where an entry of None or '' should be
printed as whitespace. Something like:

Inputs: 2D array, 1D array of fixed field widths, 1D array of format
suggestions
Effect: formatted print of the 2D array (or its transpose)

Thanks,
Alan Isaac




From insert at spam.here  Fri Aug 20 10:57:06 2004
From: insert at spam.here (Doug Holton)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:57:06 -0500
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <cg4tcl$run$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<10ia1a9jm9tkuca@corp.supernews.com>
	<dpWdnT7p6KbzlbjcRVn-jw@powergate.ca>
	<84GdneSa3r-TR7jcRVn-tw@powergate.ca>
	<cg4tcl$run$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
Message-ID: <MO-dnZ9bRv3djLvcRVn-jQ@comcast.com>

> Exactly. From this standpoint, the list on the wiki should be filtered 
> to something that
>   1) doesn't have the declaration in the body of the function
>   2) doesn't have the declaration following the parameters
> 
> 1) rules out D1 D2 E1 E2
> 2) rules out C1 C2 C3 C4 E3

I don't think so.  C1 was the clear community favorite for months and 
still has many supporters.  And putting the decorator at the top of the 
function had many supporters in the poll last week.

> With the voting going the way it currently is J2 is winning anyway, 

J2 is winning because it was actively discussed right here on this 
newsgroup this past week.  When I did a poll last week, E1 had just been 
actively discussed and it gained a lot of support.  Next week who knows 
what will be the current flavor?


From pf_moore at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Aug 26 17:24:33 2004
From: pf_moore at yahoo.co.uk (Paul Moore)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:24:33 +0100
Subject: Sound file manipulation in Python
Message-ID: <uu0upzj72.fsf@yahoo.co.uk>

Does anyone know of a Python library which handles sound file formats
(MP3, Ogg, FLAC are the three I'm nost interested in). I'd like
something that can manipulate "metadata" - stuff like artist, title,
album tags. I'm not critically interested in format conversion, or
playing sound files - I can handle that with other applications.

I'm using Windows, and Python 2.3, if it matters (as it might for C
extensions).

I can manage with just reading the metadata, but ideally writing
would be useful, too. Multiple libraries is OK, but I need something
more than just MP3.

If there's nothing available for Python, does anyone know of a good C
library that could be wrapped? (Or used via ctypes, maybe).

Thanks,
Paul.
-- 
Ooh, how Gothic. Barring the milk.


From crichton314 at btinternet.com  Mon Aug 23 07:03:12 2004
From: crichton314 at btinternet.com (John Crichton)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 04:03:12 -0700
Subject: Jython/Python and javax.swing.*
References: <2004082212534416807%birded@verizonnet>
Message-ID: <3b2846c4.0408230303.5250ca5@posting.google.com>

Sherrod Faulks <birded at verizon.net> wrote in message news:<2004082212534416807%birded at verizonnet>...
> I'm using Jython and in the python script I do:
> 
> from javax import swing
> result = javax.swing.JOptionPane.showInputDialog(wC, cmd[8:],"Prompt 
> from " + client.serverName, JOptionPane.PLAIN_MESSAGE)
> 
> wC is a JFrame, cmd is a String and client.serverName is a String.
> It won't show the JOptionPane, why?

Hi Sherrod,

Having had a look at my last post after a nights sleep I'm not sure it
was very clear...

If you change your script to the following it should work:

import javax.swing as swing
result = swing.JOptionPane.showInputDialog(wC, cmd[8:],"Promptfrom " +
client.serverName, swing.JOptionPane.PLAIN_MESSAGE)

Cheers,

John


From ben at benlast.com  Fri Aug 20 07:14:11 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:14:11 +0100
Subject: How to sort this kind of list easily?
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed204082003386ab0c10a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPAEKBCEAA.ben@benlast.com>

> From: Anthony Baxter, in response to BruceKL WhoH
> list.sort sorts tuples by first argument, then second &c. If you want a
> custom sort order, look at the decorate-sort-undecorate pattern.

Or if you want to sort only on your Id, use a lambda:
l.sort(lambda x,y: cmp(x[0],y[0]))

To force sorting on just the nth element of the tuples, replace 0 with n in
the above.

b



From peter_jacobi at gmx.net  Mon Aug  2 06:19:55 2004
From: peter_jacobi at gmx.net (Peter Jacobi)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 03:19:55 -0700
Subject: Codecs for ISO 8859-11 (Thai) and 8859-16 (Romanian)
References: <efabc1be.0407270310.40dbd80@posting.google.com>
	<biteg0dko3sbp7el7etlhtm7djonnf7etq@4ax.com>
	<efabc1be.0407311057.68cdbc29@posting.google.com>
	<410c2827$0$24830$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<efabc1be.0408010830.2128cf68@posting.google.com>
	<410D7AB5.9040100@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <efabc1be.0408020219.11dcf0d7@posting.google.com>

I've added an entry in the RFE tracker at http://sf.net/projects/python

Regarding the correctness doubts, I can provide these three points os far:

a) ISO 8859-n vs ISO-8859-n
If the information at 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8859-1#ISO_8859-1_vs_ISO-8859-1 
is correct, Python 8859-n 
codecs do implement the ISO standard charsets ISO 8859-n 
in the specialized IANA forms ISO-8859-n (and in agreement 
with the Unicode mapping files). So any difficult C0/C1 
wording in the original ISO standard can be disregarded.

b) libiconv ISO 8859-11
The implementation by Bruno Haible in libiconv does agree 
with the Unicode mapping file:
http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/libiconv/libiconv/lib/

c) IBM ICU4C
The implementation in ICU4C does agree with the Unicode 
mapping file:
http://oss.software.ibm.com/cvs/icu/charset/data/ucm/

Regards,
Peter Jacobi


From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Aug 12 05:30:17 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:30:17 +0200
Subject: [OT] Keyboard layout, was Re: PEP318
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<20040812090056.00001e31@titan>
Message-ID: <cffdba$ko0$04$1@news.t-online.com>

Josef Dalcolmo wrote:

> On many non-English keyboards it isn't exactly simple to type an '@', but
> since decorators aren't going to be used everywhere, I guess this is a
> weak point.

Let me add that temporarily switching to an American keyboard layout (*) for
programming helps with all of the following chars: @\[]{}|`.

Peter


(*) clearly an obsession of mine


From michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk  Thu Aug 12 04:52:13 2004
From: michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk (Michael Sparks)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:52:13 +0100
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
	<60dfb6f6.0408111846.615ee9eb@posting.google.com>
	<3YWdnYxLf--ObofcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <cffbbu$amv$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>

Peter Hansen wrote:
> Carl Banks wrote:
>> One thing that's different is that, in all those cases, the second
>> block has a keyword that can't appear alone.  You can't have an
>> except without a try, or an else without an if, but you could have a
>> def without a decorate.
...
> is this an argument based on presumed difficulties in
> implementing the idea?

Looking at the wiki it states (as negative points):
   1 New keyword
   2 Overkill for the simple case like classmethod
   3 Many people felt it was wrong use of an identation suite.
   4 Has the same problem as 5.A, in that the decorate block implicitly
     affects the following def. This does not occur elsewhere in Python.
   5 Technical problems with the current grammar parser if a suite
     *starts* with an optional part. (Ending with an optional part, such
     as "else:" is OK, but starting with one is not.) 
   6 No implementation currently exists. 

1 isn't a huge issue if the syntax has significant benefits - but I
suspect that they would have to be significant to warrant the change.
(Guido says he's more relaxed about the idea, but that might me a
relaxation to just "No" rather than "no way, no how, buzz off" kind of
feeling :)

As per the comment on the wiki regarding 2), I'm not convinced that:

decorate:
   staticmethod
def somefunction(some, args):
   """some 
   multi line
   comment"""
   x=function(call)
   if x = ...
      ...
   etc...

is worse than:

def somefunction(some, args):
   """some 
   multi line
   comment"""
   x=function(call)
   if x = ...
      ...
   etc...
somefunction = staticmethod(somefunction)

It *is* marginally longer than @staticmethod, but I don't think it's any
worse ?  On the positive side the "decorate" approach appears to me
MUCH clearer in complex cases, which strikes me as more pythonic. I
love perl and python about as much as each other, but for different
reasons - with one of the things I like about python is that when code
gets complex it generally stays readable.

Item 3 is opinion, but I don't know where the arguments are leading to
that point, so I'll just take that at face value. I'm not convinced,
but hey :)

Regarding 4, it strikes me that this isn't the case (unless it strictly
means "block"!). An import at the beginning of a block changes the
meaning of a block. Similarly a class statement changes the meaning of
the defs immediately following it. I'd agree that it's not ideal, but
the argument that code preceding the def isn't allowed because it
changes the meaning of the def doesn't make sense to me - that's what
the @ syntax does.

Item 6 is always the case for any new feature, so I doubt that's the
real problem - the real problem here strikes me as item 5. 

I do wonder how difficult it would be to add though... 


Michael.
-- 
Michael.Sparks at rd.bbc.co.uk    
British Broadcasting Corporation, Research and Development
Kingswood Warren, Surrey KT20 6NP

This message (and any attachments) may contain personal views
which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.




From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Fri Aug 20 01:25:48 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 05:25:48 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<Xns954AB8327A955arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.7>
Message-ID: <wXfVc.4524$Jn5.3509@fe1.texas.rr.com>

"Arien Malec" <arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE> wrote in message
news:Xns954AB8327A955arienmalecyahoocom at 64.164.98.7...
> "Paul McGuire" <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> wrote in
> news:t07Vc.1179$v86.188 at fe2.texas.rr.com:
>
> > There are a number of messages on the python-dev mail list that
> > indicate that Guido is looking for some concensus to come from this
> > list as to what *one* alternative syntax for decorators
>
> M, any keyword option using "transform"
>
> (I care more about semantics than syntax)
>
> Arien

I can interpret "any keyword option using "transform"" to match J1, J2, or
L.

Please narrow "any keyword option using "transform"" down to 2 specific
choices, otherwise I can only tally your vote for "M".

-- Paul




From skip at pobox.com  Mon Aug 30 22:45:28 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 21:45:28 -0500
Subject: bad bsddb key/values on large data
In-Reply-To: <20040830222950.58737.qmail@web51407.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040830222950.58737.qmail@web51407.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <16691.58952.276250.971662@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Barry> The largest one, about 200 megs, is written, and can be read, and
    Barry> the strings are correctly formatted -- but the values attached to
    Barry> the keys are wrong ...

    ...

    Barry> Can anyone tell me if there is such a Python problem or a bsddb
    Barry> problem?

You didn't say what versions of Berkeley DB or Python you are using.  If you
are using Berkeley DB 1.85, problems are to be expected.  Upgrade to a later
version.

Skip


From jacek.generowicz at cern.ch  Mon Aug 30 04:23:21 2004
From: jacek.generowicz at cern.ch (Jacek Generowicz)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 10:23:21 +0200
Subject: The voodoo of zip(*someList)
References: <c60e7f28.0408300000.657118b1@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <tyfpt59nifa.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>

mdrop1 at yahoo.com (Message Drop Box) writes:

> How (and why) does zip(*someList) work? 

[...]

> I've never seen the star '*' outside of function/method definitions

It can also be used in function invocations, where it means pretty
much the reverse of what it means in function definitions.

In a parameter list "*foo" means "collect remaining positional
arguments into a sequence (tuple) called 'foo'". In an argument list,
it means "take the sequence 'foo' and expand it into a set of
positional arguments".

You can "reverse" the **kwds syntax in the same way too.

> and I've looked in the Python documentation without success.

Try page 39 of the Python Reference Manual.


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 21 11:12:37 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:12:37 -0400
Subject: __metaclass__ and __author__ are already decorators
In-Reply-To: <cg7mo9$r8r$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <cg7mo9$r8r$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <cg7op5$r8r$2@sea.gmane.org>

Erratum:

> 
>     def synchronized(decoratedFunc, trueOrFalse):
>         """ This describes the 'synchronized' decorator. """
>         __decorator__ = True
>         __author__ = 'Martin Curry'
>         __version__ = '0.5'
>         # perform the synchronized operation on decoratedClass
> 
> 

should have been

     def synchronized(decoratedFunc, trueOrFalse):
         """ This describes the 'synchronized' decorator. """
         __decorator__ = True
         __author__ = 'Martin Curry'
         __version__ = '0.5'
         # perform the synchronized operation on decoratedFunc



From theller at python.net  Wed Aug 18 07:51:13 2004
From: theller at python.net (Thomas Heller)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 13:51:13 +0200
Subject: Overriding tp_getset attribute in subclasses
Message-ID: <acwsu0jy.fsf@python.net>

I have a subclassable type implemented in C, which has a 'value'
attribute implemented in the tp_getset slot.  The type is named c_long.
The value attribute accepts and returns integers.

Now I want to derive a subclass 'BOOL' (in Python) from it, where the
'value' attribute should accept and return bool instances:

from ctypes import c_long

class BOOL(c_long):
    def _get_value(self):
        return bool(c_long.value.__get__(self))
        # this also works:
        # return bool(super(BOOL, self).value)

    def _set_value(self, val):
        c_long.value.__set__(self, val)
        # this does not work:
        # super(BOOL, self).value = val

    value = property(_get_value, _set_value)

I had expected the commented out super() calls to also do the work, but
at least in the _set_value method it does not work: 

  File "c:\sf\ctypes\win32\wintypes.py", line 37, in _set_value
    super(BOOL, self).value = val
TypeError: 'super' object has only read-only attributes (assign to .value)

The c_long.value.__get__ and c_long.value.__set__ variants work, but
they look strange - is there a better way?

Thanks,


Thomas


From CarolCarrot at sofsof.net  Mon Aug 16 22:11:32 2004
From: CarolCarrot at sofsof.net (Carol Carrot)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:11:32 -0600
Subject: mailman mailing list program
References: <PPidncd3ycQ1mbzcRVn-gg@comcast.com>
	<cfrlid$1f8c$1@agate.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <ZqydndktdPrM9LzcRVn-hg@comcast.com>

Thank you !

How do I know if I won the QOTW?
Ah well I can keep trying.


"Daniel Yoo" <dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:cfrlid$1f8c$1 at agate.berkeley.edu...
> Carol Carrot <CarolCarrot at sofsof.net> wrote:
>
> [exhasperated Mailman rant cut]
>
>
> Hi Carol,
>
> Your question isn't really related to Python: Python's just the
> implementation language for Mailman.  A better bet is to ask your
> question on "Mailman Users":
>
>     http://list.org/lists.html
>
> where you can get help from dozens of other long-suffering Mailman
> administrators.
>
>
> : I'm trying to get a header to get attached tot he email. it gets
stripped
> : from the email, whwere as the footer comes in as an attachment.
> : all this is buried under "non-digest" options for some crazy reason.
>
> Having a header is dependent on how messages are delivered.  In digest
> mode, messages are bundled and delivered as a single message.  Sending
> the same header, over and over in the bulk-message, would not be a
> good idea.
>
> So that's why there is a separate variable option that describes the
> header for non-digest messages (msg_header), and one for digest
> messages (digest_header).  I guess it might make sense to have a
> separate "Header/Footer" configuration menu, but that's a user
> interface issue.
>
>
>
> : How do I get the header to work?
>
> Did you update the 'msg_header' variable?
>
>
> Please continue your questions on the 'Mailman Users' mailing list;
> you should get better help from them.
>
>
> Good luck to you!




From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 25 19:49:23 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:49:23 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>
	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <cgj8i2$521$1@sea.gmane.org>

Paul Morrow wrote:

> and therefore it's ok to make all assignments to __xxx__ attributes 
> inside of a function def create /function attributes/ rather than /local 
> variables/.

In My Opinion.




From sthota at gmail.com  Mon Aug 30 16:45:56 2004
From: sthota at gmail.com (shashaank)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 13:45:56 -0700
Subject: dtml-sendmail
Message-ID: <d939e346.0408301245.35dc0b3b@posting.google.com>

hello all.
i am new to both dtml and zope. i have inherited a piece of dtml code
that essentially perfoms sending email.

--snip--
<dtml-comment>Send email</dtml-comment>
	<dtml-try>

       <dtml-sendmail smtphost="MailHost" mailto="<dtml-var email>"
mailfrom="sales at quietcare.info">
	Subject: Confirming your account.
	
       </dtml-sendmail>
       <dtml-except>
	  Sorry, we could not process your email.
	  <p><dtml-var error_type>: <dtml-var error_value><pre><tt>
	    <dtml-var error_tb></pre;></tt></p>
	</dtml-try>
	
--snip--
the syntax looks fine and i have configured "MailHost" to our internal
mail server 192.168.1.8 but the emails do not seem to go through nor
do i get the exception message. can any one tell me if am missing
something fundamental over here. thanks a lot.


From jtauber at jtauber.com  Mon Aug 16 15:00:05 2004
From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 03:00:05 +0800
Subject: passing globals to imported module
Message-ID: <1092682805.7812.202438687@webmail.messagingengine.com>


Had a question from a colleague that I embarrassingly couldn't answer.

He has a script, foo.py with a global. He wants to import bar.py and
needs that global available in bar.py

The following obviously doesn't work:

# foo.py
my_global = "hello"
print globals().keys()
import bar


# bar.py
print globals().keys()


and results in:

['__builtins__', '__name__', '__doc__', 'my_global']
['__builtins__', '__name__', '__file__', '__doc__']


I'm not sure how to reimplement __import__ to make the global available
to the imported module.

Any suggestions?

James
-- 
  James Tauber               http://jtauber.com/
  journeyman of some    http://jtauber.com/blog/



From loic.mahe at free.fr  Fri Aug 20 11:49:50 2004
From: loic.mahe at free.fr (Lo?c Mah?)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 08:49:50 -0700
Subject: Rita Sue and Bob too
References: <cg3ksb$bg5$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <27a5ac50.0408200749.a1fd32f@posting.google.com>

Hello

You can do it with list List Comprehensions:

BigList = ['Jean', 'Eric', 'Remy', 'Anne', 'Denis', 'Alain', 'Armel',
'Louis']
SmallList = ['Eric', 'Denis', 'Georges', 'Jean']

if ( [x for x in SmallList if x in BigList] == SmallList ):
   print "They were found"
else:
   print "They are not in list"


[x for x in SmallList if x in BigList] evaluates to a list with common
elements of SmallList and BigList


Lo?c


From fischerlaender at gmx.de  Thu Aug 12 18:49:43 2004
From: fischerlaender at gmx.de (Stefan Fischerl?nder)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 15:49:43 -0700
Subject: Developing a Tool Band for IE in Python
References: <ff9bee6c.0408120658.28a3fdf7@posting.google.com>
	<4qn8e5qy.fsf@python.net>
Message-ID: <ff9bee6c.0408121449.731f5469@posting.google.com>

> > Is Python suitable for developing a tool band (something like the
> > Google Toolbar) to be placed in the Internet Explorer's rebar? Does
> > anyone even have any tutorial or something similiar?

> ctypes (0.9.0) recently got a toolband sample - although currently it's only an
> empty template displaying a button.

Wow, great.

Just for anyone else interested:
http://starship.python.net/crew/theller/ctypes/
The toolband example is here: ctypes-0.9.0/win32/com/samples/server/IExplorer

Stefan


From krzysiek at asi.pwr.wroc.pl  Wed Aug 18 18:42:26 2004
From: krzysiek at asi.pwr.wroc.pl (Krzysztof Drozd)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 00:42:26 +0200
Subject: apache 2 & python
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.18.22.42.26.514831@asi.pwr.wroc.pl>

how to configure apache 2 to work with python or mod_python?



krzysiek

ps: sory,my english is't perfect :)


From dperl at rogers.com  Mon Aug 30 12:28:18 2004
From: dperl at rogers.com (Dan Perl)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:28:18 GMT
Subject: initializing mutable class attributes
References: <J4zYc.102357$UTP.98636@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<cgvdun$1mb$01$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <CAIYc.2$JFK1.0@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>

Thanks, Peter.  pychecker detecting the wrong use makes the argument that
there is no excuse for making the mistake of not calling the parent's
__init__ in subclasses.  I am regularly using pychecker on my code, but I
never saw that warning because I did use __init__ correctly.

But I did make the mistake once of using a class attribute with an empty
dictionary to initialize an instance attribute just because I was doing the
same thing with immutable attributes.  Fortunately, I caught it soon enough
and I will not make that mistake again.  But it was kind of an embarrassing
mistake and I learned my lesson only after that.

Dan

"Peter Otten" <__peter__ at web.de> wrote in message
news:cgvdun$1mb$01$1 at news.t-online.com...
> You have to call base-class-__init__() in every non-trivial inheritance
> scheme. Should you forget it, pychecker is always there to remind you
> [....]
> And here's what pychecker says:
>
> $ pychecker t1.py
> Processing t1...
>
> Warnings...
>
> t1.py:9: Base class (t1.Y) __init__() not called
>
> Clear enough.
>
> Peter
>




From 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de  Fri Aug 20 02:51:33 2004
From: 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de (510046470588-0001 at t-online.de)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 08:51:33 +0200
Subject: My only complaint about Python
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<pan.2004.08.20.05.47.36.399065@large.net>
Message-ID: <87isbepaiy.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>

flab ba <flab at large.net> writes:
> 
> with the free Visual C++ Toolkit. Instructions are here:

all humbug. Visual C++ is nowhere near free, it's all proprietary.

Klaus Schilling


From alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 28 17:03:59 2004
From: alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 14:03:59 -0700
Subject: about presicion
References: <mailman.2518.1093611862.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <8f17f4bc.0408281303.3cfb4199@posting.google.com>

"Batista, Facundo" <FBatista at uniFON.com.ar> wrote in message news:<mailman.2518.1093611862.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> [alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com]
> 
> 
> #- I was wondering if it was posible to get very good presicion. I mean
> #- like to the to the 100 th or more decimal place. if so how?
> 
> In Python 2.4 you'll have the Decimal module:
> 
> 
> Python 2.4a2 (#55, Aug  5 2004, 11:42:43) [MSC v.1310 32 bit (Intel)] on
> win32
> ...
> >>> import decimal
> >>> decimal.getcontext().prec=100
> >>> d = decimal.Decimal(2)
> >>> d.sqrt()
> Decimal("1.41421356237309504880168872420969807856967187537694807317667973799
> 0732478462107038850387534327641573")
> 
> Enjoy it.
> 
> .	Facundo

The decimal module comes with python 2.4? I have 2.3, :(, what do I do?


From FBatista at uniFON.com.ar  Tue Aug 31 09:12:36 2004
From: FBatista at uniFON.com.ar (Batista, Facundo)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:12:36 -0300
Subject: has_method
Message-ID: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C78AD@escpl.tcp.com.ar>

[Gandalf]

#- Does anyone knows how to tell if an object has a method with a given
#- name? How can I access that method?

>>> class C:
        def mymeth(self):
                return

       
>>> c = C()
>>> dir(c)
['__doc__', '__module__', 'mymeth']
>>> c.mymeth
<bound method C.mymeth of <__main__.C instance at 0x009ACBC0>>
>>> 

.	Facundo


From rich.teer at rite-group.com  Tue Aug 31 12:49:59 2004
From: rich.teer at rite-group.com (Rich Teer)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 16:49:59 GMT
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
In-Reply-To: <%T%Yc.29567$Es2.11957889@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4PGdnfsOfdDPi63cRVn-tA@speakeasy.net>
	<slrncj1745.t5q.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<41337FC9.8070902@hotmail.com>
	<slrncj7hhh.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<p7v7j0plcfbden593l1irfprmfkp4d3k51@4ax.com>
	<slrncj8m5n.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<%T%Yc.29567$Es2.11957889@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.58.0408310949330.1813@zaphod.rite-group.com>

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, John W. Kennedy wrote:

> Yes, and also a single-process pipe emulator.  Ever since 2.0, MS has
> been trying to turn MS-DOS (later, Windows) into a Unix clone.

... And has failed miserably to do so.

-- 
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA, author of "Solaris Systems Programming",
published in August 2004.

President,
Rite Online Inc.

Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-group.com/rich


From ralf at brainbot.com  Thu Aug 19 12:28:16 2004
From: ralf at brainbot.com (Ralf Schmitt)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 18:28:16 +0200
Subject: My only complaint about Python
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <86d61nay8v.fsf@stronzo.brainbot.com>

Darren Dale <dd55 at cornell.edu> writes:

> I love the language. I love the community. My only complaint is that
> Python for Windows is built with Visual Studio.
>
> It is too difficult to build python, or a module, from source. This is
> what open source is all about, isnt it? I even have a copy of visual
> studio, and I still cant build modules from source, because my
> academic copy is version 7. As a scientist funded by the NSF, I feel
> compelled to do all my work using free software (I feel compelled to
> use free software, regardless). And I feel compelled to contribute to
> the scientific capabilities of my favorite programming language. But
> this compiler issue is a big (and seemingly unnecessary)
> impediment. Will the BDFL ever split with Visual Studio?

You can build modules using msys/mingw. Instructions can be found at
http://sebsauvage.net/python/mingw.html

-- 
brainbot technologies ag
boppstrasse 64 . 55118 mainz . germany
fon +49 6131 211639-1 . fax +49 6131 211639-2
http://brainbot.com/  mailto:ralf at brainbot.com


From davecook at nowhere.net  Thu Aug  5 06:12:06 2004
From: davecook at nowhere.net (David Cook)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 10:12:06 GMT
Subject: DB beginner help
References: <slrnch3ms4.7mn.mordor@fly.srk.fer.hr>
Message-ID: <slrnch41vm.gf5.davecook@david-cooks-computer.local>

On 2004-08-05, Zeljko Vrba <mordor at fly.srk.fer.hr> wrote:

> 2. How are you supposed to write DB-driver independent code when each
>    driver has its own, possibly different from any other, paramstyle
>    ('qmark', 'numeric', etc..)?

This recipe might help:

http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/278612

I haven't tried it.

> In Perl I always use question marks and have no trouble switching the
> application between different databases. How do you guys do it in Python
> (of course, without rewriting all queries?)

pyformat is the most useful IMO, e.g.

cursor.execute(
  "insert into foo (baz, quux) values (%(baz)s, %(quux)s)", 
     {'parrot' : 'deceased', 'quux' : "O'Reilly", 'baz' : 1})

The values for 'baz' and 'quux' will be interpolated and quoted correctly,
and 'parrot' will be ignored.

A few adapters have a dictfetch method, but for those that don't, getting
your data out in dict form is a two liner:

fieldnames = [tup[0] for tup in cursor.description]
dictrows = [dict(zip(fieldnames, row)) for row in cursor.fetchall()]

Dave Cook


From ville at spammers.com  Sun Aug 22 04:29:25 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 11:29:25 +0300
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WEDONE?
References: <mailman.2136.1093150593.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <du7brh3y3ru.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Robert" == Robert Brewer <fumanchu at amor.org> writes:

    Robert> I'd be most interested to hear arguments _against_
    Robert> "declare", if there are any.

Python will have optional type declarations in the future - having the
word "declare" signify decoration might conflict with the terminology
used for type declarations. Even if the type declarations didn't use
the "declare" keyword in code (which is probably the case), there
might still be some confusion regarding the documentation.

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From http  Fri Aug 27 04:21:38 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 01:21:38 -0700
Subject: lambda ??
References: <6f402501.0408270000.31ad1455@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <7xoekxgfe5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord) writes:

> It starts by giving some basic examples using lambda. What I'm
> wondering is what's the actual difference between these two forms ?
> 
> pr = lambda s:s
> *and*
> def pr(s):
>     return s

They're the same.

> Is it just a basic example (and so in this case there is no
> difference).. or am I missing something. (What's the point of an
> 'anonymous' function... if you give a name to it !!).

It's like an anonymous expression.  Look at the statement

   x = a + b * c

That adds the expression 'a' to the expression 'b * c'.  If Python
didn't have anonymous expressions, you'd say something like

  temp = b * c
  x = a + temp

Anonymous just means you can use it as an intermediate result without
having to give it a name of its own.

Example:

      def derivative(f, x):    # find approximate value of f'(x)
        h = .0001
        return (f(x+h) - f(x)) / h

      def square(x):
        return x*x

      print derivative(square, 3)    # approximately 6

An anonymous function lets you do the same thing without having to
create a named function (like a temporary variable):

      print derivative(lambda x: x*x, 3)    # same thing

Using a lot of lambdas can be like using a lot of complicated, deeply
nested arithmetic expressions.  You have to exercise some judgement to
keep your code readable.  But there's a school of thought that says
lambda is a wart in Python and shouldn't be used.  That's as silly as
saying you should never say "a + b * c" and instead name every
subexpression with a temp variable.


From max at alcyone.com  Thu Aug 12 19:26:24 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:26:24 -0700
Subject: decorator syntax polling suggestion
References: <d11dcfba.0408121252.7690a43a@posting.google.com>
	<tMWdnW5dbupIZobcRVn-qQ@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <411BFCA0.CF885BEC@alcyone.com>

Doug Holton wrote:

> So if Guido does want to pay attention to the opinions of Python users
> (and he doesn't have to), then changing the current syntax probably
> wouldn't be an unpopular decision.

The point is that even if Guido does want to pay attention to the
opinions of Python users, the results of this particular poll may not be
the best way to do it.

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ She's your moon, she's your sun / She could even be the one
    -- Nik Kershaw


From ben at benlast.com  Mon Aug 30 12:03:23 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 17:03:23 +0100
Subject: PHP Documentation
In-Reply-To: <3_CdnTrTktNkoK7cRVn-qw@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPKEBLCGAA.ben@benlast.com>

> From Larry Bates
> Zope has such a system in place for their docs.  You can just ask
> that the comments be hidden and they disappear.  It does appear to
> provide a way to make comments, add examples clarification that
> "may" get included in the next version of the docs.
The Zope system has a couple of drawbacks: Firstly, the comments are always
downloaded as part of the web page; they're shown/hidden by JavaScript, and
on the big pages that can be quite a slow process.  That's not such a big
deal, but the second drawback is that there's no way to edit a comment once
made, so the pages have gradually filled up with junk remarks.  Those who
have the power to edit don't seem to.

A Python docs Wiki sounds like an interesting idea; I'll certainly be taking
a look at the one quoted.  Offhand, does anyone know if the license on the
Python Docs would allow them to be freely copied and used as the basis of a
Wiki?

b



From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Wed Aug 25 08:50:33 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:50:33 GMT
Subject: Is it a bug (or a feature)?
References: <mailman.2348.1093434827.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <tW%Wc.22419$v86.11990@fe2.texas.rr.com>


Looking further at Message.py, __delitem__ has this same problem.  When
fixing this, should probably also add an __iter__ method, that would return
iter(self._headers).

-- Paul




From brett at python.org  Tue Aug 24 14:51:03 2004
From: brett at python.org (Brett C.)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 11:51:03 -0700
Subject: profiler
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2260.1093321039.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgg2mn$87r@odbk17.prod.google.com>

As of Python 2.4 you  can also compile in support for C-level profiling
into the interpreter (--enable-profiling).  See the in-dev docs
(http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/) for details.



From mcfletch at rogers.com  Wed Aug 18 10:15:36 2004
From: mcfletch at rogers.com (Mike C. Fletcher)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 10:15:36 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <41236488.5060200@rogers.com>

Lucas Raab wrote:

>One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
>Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
>about....
>  
>
It's going to take a long time if we all just give single numbers.

 From what I've seen at PyCon and PyGTA (and I *suck* at guessing ages, 
btw), there is a large population lump in the late teens and early 
twenties among the Twisted developers.  IIRC there was actually a PyCon 
survey that might have this information with *real* numbers.  Theres a 
good little bump among the scientific and core-dev peoples for late 
forties and above (maybe those careers keep you flexible enough to try 
new things?  Maybe the projects are experimental enough that using a 
"new" language isn't a problem?)

Beyond those groups, I would guess the average is in the early 
thirties/late twenties, with most of the bulk from 25-ish through 
33-ish.  Of course, the "casual" Python programmer isn't likely to show 
up to *any* Python-related event, and there are likely more of them than 
those of us who've drunk the kool-aid.  And as I mentioned before, I 
suck at guessing ages...

It's so much more efficient to just make up the statistics.
Mike

________________________________________________
  Mike C. Fletcher
  Designer, VR Plumber, Coder
  http://www.vrplumber.com
  http://blog.vrplumber.com



From Majordomo at wolfram.com  Wed Aug 11 05:01:01 2004
From: Majordomo at wolfram.com (Majordomo at wolfram.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 04:01:01 -0500
Subject: Majordomo results: [PMX:VIRUS] Re: Proof of concept
Message-ID: <200408110901.i7B911cE012665@mailhub.wolfram.com>

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From dave at pythonapocrypha.com  Thu Aug 26 11:49:22 2004
From: dave at pythonapocrypha.com (Dave Brueck)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:49:22 -0600
Subject: Best processor (i386) for Python performance?
In-Reply-To: <412dfb17$0$65599$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
References: <cgjsk2$le4@odah37.prod.google.com>
	<412dfb17$0$65599$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <412E0682.5030408@pythonapocrypha.com>

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2004-08-26, Brett C. <brett at python.org> wrote:
> 
> 
>>In terms of multithreading, an I/O intensive app that is
>>threaded can make use of dual procs.  Otherwise threaded apps
>>can't for technical reasons (GIL and such but don't need to
>>get into those details).
> 
> 
> That's rather dissappointing.  If I write a multi-threaded app
> in C it can utilize multiple processors, but the same app in
> Python can't?

Depends on what the multithreaded app _does_. If multiple processors are 
present then Python will use them, but how well they get used depends on 
how much and for what reasons the GIL gets released.

I/O is the most common reason, so adding another processor to an I/O 
bound program can give you a good performance boost (in our lab I've 
seen easily 75% improvement over a single proc box for a program that 
was very I/O bound, but I haven't measured it to see if it's closer to 
75% or to 100% improvement).

Another easy boost comes if your app already calls out to a 
GIL-releasing C function for CPU-intensive work, then adding a CPU can 
give similar speed boosts - we have only one such case and although 
there was noticable speedup in dual vs single processors, I never 
attempted to quantify it. And the normal restrictions on parallel 
computing apply - if whatever you're doing can't be done in parallel 
anyway, then adding a CPU isn't helpful. :)

FWIW I haven't noticed a case where adding a CPU improved performance by 
*less* than ~25%, probably because the GIL gets released here and there 
for various operations anyway, and having an existing multithreaded app 
where multiple threads are CPU bound is somewhat uncommon.

But then again very few of the projects I work on end up having CPU as 
the most scarce resource so the machines that do have multiple CPUs are 
that way because they are running oodles of other processes as well.

-Dave


From skip at pobox.com  Fri Aug 13 13:30:33 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 12:30:33 -0500
Subject: PEP 318 decorators are not Decorators
In-Reply-To: <Xns95446284A8DA2arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.29>
References: <Xns9543CB4CF5EDFarienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.7>
	<cfhsri$a1q$1@news1.wdf.sap-ag.de>
	<Xns95446284A8DA2arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.29>
Message-ID: <16668.64185.454373.110884@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    1) That's not mentioned in PEP 318

We can fix that.

    2) That's in disagreement with http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators

That too (different authors, by the way).

    Arien> 3) Won't most programmers think GoF decorators before compiler
    Arien>    syntax tree decorators?

Not if they are unfamiliar with the GoF patterns (myself included).

Skip


From jfouhy at paradise.net.nz  Mon Aug  2 18:46:36 2004
From: jfouhy at paradise.net.nz (John Fouhy)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 15:46:36 -0700
Subject: Lambdas and variables
References: <c0f3aa87.0407271535.40217366@posting.google.com>	<mailman.861.1090973013.5135.python-list@python.org>	<c0f3aa87.0407281914.50f5d62d@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.917.1091100184.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <c0f3aa87.0408021446.721cbb6@posting.google.com>

James Henderson <james at logicalprogression.net> wrote in message news:<mailman.917.1091100184.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> I agree it's a gotcha.  Interestingly you would have been forced to pass 
> x in as a default argument and avoided your problem until Python 
> introduced nested scopes in versions 2.1 and 2.2.  You may find PEP 227 
> on statically nested scopes illuminating:
> 
> http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0227.html

Heh.

                                                      """ The proposed
    solution, in crude terms, implements the default argument approach
    automatically.  The "root=root" argument can be omitted. """

Ok, I've got it now (famous last words).

Thanks for your help :-)

-- 
John.


From zanesdad at bellsouth.net  Thu Aug 26 14:05:58 2004
From: zanesdad at bellsouth.net (Jeremy Jones)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:05:58 -0400
Subject: Mysql in Python?
In-Reply-To: <2p6m32Fh7o9oU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <2p6m32Fh7o9oU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <412E2686.7040209@bellsouth.net>

Stefan Stolz wrote:

>Hello,
>i tried to find something about mysql in www.python.org, but found
>nothing...
>What can you recommend to use for getting and putting data from and into a
>mysql database?
>On my Suse 9.1 i found a rpm python-mysql. In the web i found the hk_classes
>from www.knoda.org. This should do also such things.
>Can you recommend something? What do you use?
>Thank you very much for the info.
>  
>
I have used a MySQLdb module before.  Here's a piece of code that I 
found lying around my home directory:

import MySQLdb

if __name__ == "__main__":
    db_conn = 
MySQLdb.connect(host='hostname',db='database_name',user='username',passwd='password')
    handle = db_conn.cursor()
    query = "SELECT * FROM foo"
    handle.execute(query)
    Results = handle.fetchall()
    print Results

I'm not sure, but I believe that MySQLdb is included in this project:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/mysql-python

(which appears to have been updated only a couple of months back, so 
that's good news).


From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Thu Aug 26 13:24:54 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 19:24:54 +0200
Subject: urllib hangs
In-Reply-To: <a6fdfd6b.0408260828.61bdb56c@posting.google.com>
References: <a6fdfd6b.0408230902.2afc0e08@posting.google.com>
	<cgdaoh$1gn$01$1@news.t-online.com>
	<a6fdfd6b.0408231537.c2c5af2@posting.google.com>
	<tZOdnSAokOE9VbfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<a6fdfd6b.0408241006.6b5c4d65@posting.google.com>
	<jt6dnYJ8R-eH77DcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
	<a6fdfd6b.0408260828.61bdb56c@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <2p6kgfFhgddeU2@uni-berlin.de>

Jay Donnell wrote:
> Apparently you don't know what exactly means ;)

Apparently _you_ don't know how to quote...

Reinhold

-- 
[Windows ist wie] die Bahn: Man muss sich um nichts kuemmern, zahlt fuer
jede Kleinigkeit einen Aufpreis, der Service ist mies, Fremde koennen
jederzeit einsteigen, es ist unflexibel und zu allen anderen Verkehrs-
mitteln inkompatibel.               -- Florian Diesch in dcoulm


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 17:08:19 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 23:08:19 +0200
Subject: Alex Martelli: Welcome back!
References: <slrnciunmu.tkp.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
	<1gj70s0.cc0xt0bs9aduN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrnciv1es.t6n.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
Message-ID: <1gj79a7.wv6it11nd8gjbN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Dave Benjamin <ramen at lackingtalent.com> wrote:

> In article <1gj70s0.cc0xt0bs9aduN%aleaxit at yahoo.com>, Alex Martelli wrote:
> > Dave Benjamin <ramen at lackingtalent.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> It's nice to see you around here again!
> > 
> > Thanks!  Hope I can stay a while...
> 
> Did you leave in frustration or did you just get busy?

I got too busy to follow c.l.py -- essentially because I keep having a
hard time, psychologically, just killfiling the [f]lamers, the deuced
people that come here to criticize Python and/or demand changes.

This time around I'm gonna try -- I'm as busy as ever (the 2nd Edition
of the Python Cookbook is at least as intense a project as the first
was...), but if I can steel myself to use my killfile 100 times more
than in the past, and still try to respond on some threads which might
be interesting or useful.  We'll see if it works!


Alex


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Sat Aug  7 07:26:58 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 07:26:58 -0400
Subject: Further changes to source encodings (Was: PEP 263 status check)
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com> <4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de>
	<10h5hgvpafm8a64@news.supernews.com> <41133C76.8040302@v.loewis.de>
	<10h6rklt3fa1690@news.supernews.com> <41137799.70808@v.loewis.de>
	<10h724r20kkeqb2@news.supernews.com> <4113D8DF.8080106@v.loewis.de>
	<10h7tb8nn53ajbb@news.supernews.com> <4114070F.90507@v.loewis.de>
	<10h8f3md11sou81@news.supernews.com>
	<411462b5$0$27020$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
Message-ID: <10h9f3kjlr8up8f@news.supernews.com>


"Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote in message
news:411462b5$0$27020$9b622d9e at news.freenet.de...
> John Roth wrote:
> > I don't believe I ever said that PEP 263 said there was
> > a difference. If I gave you that impression, I will
> > appologize if you can show me where it I did it.
>
> In <10h5hgvpafm8a64 at news.supernews.com>, titled
> " PEP 263 status check", you write
>
> [quote]
> My specific question there was how the code handles the
> combination of UTF-8 as the encoding and a non-ascii
> character in an 8-bit string literal. Is this an error?
> [end quote]
>
> So I assumed you were all the time talking about how this
> is implemented, and how you expected to be implemented,
> and I assumed we agree that the implementation should
> match the specification in PEP 263.

Ah! While my assumption was that the code had been
implemented correctly according to the specification,
and that the specification leaves a trap for the unwary
in one very significant (although also very narrow) case.

> > As far as I'm concerned, what PEP 263 says is utterly
> > irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make.
>
> Then I don't know what the point is you are trying to
> make. It appears that you are now saying that Python
> does not work the way it should work. IOW, you are
> proposing that it be changed, right? This sounds like
> another PEP.

It could very well be another PEP.

>
> > 8-bit strings have a builtin assumption that one
> > byte equals one character.
>
> Not at all. Some 8-bit strings don't denote characters
> at all, and some 8-bit string, atleast in some regions
> of the world, are deliberately using multi-byte character
> encodings. In particular, UTF-8 is such an encoding.

This is true, but it's also beside the point. Most *programmers*
(other than ones that use single-language multi-byte
encodings) make that assumption. If they didn't there
wouldn't be a problem.

Every tutorial I've ever seen on unicode spends a great
deal of time at the beginning explaining the difference
between bytes, characters, encodings and all that stuff.
If this was common knowledge, why would the authors
bother? They bother simply because it isn't common
knowledge, at least in the sense that it's wired into
developer's common coding intuitions and habits.

> > The problem I have is that if you use utf-8 as the
> > source encoding, you can suddenly drop multi-byte
> > characters into an 8-bit string ***BY ACCIDENT***.

> Ok.


> > Now, my suggested solution of this problem was
> > to require that 8-bit string literals in source that was
> > encoded with UTF-8 be restricted to the 7-bit
> > ascii subset.
>
> Ok. I disagree that this is desirable; if you really
> want to see that happen, you should write a PEP.
>
> > The second possibility begs the question of what
> > encoding to use, which is why I don't seriously
> > propose it (although if I understand Hallvard's
> > position correctly, that's essentially his proposal.)
>
> No. He proposes your third alternative (ban non-ASCII
> characters in byte string literals), not just for UTF-8,
> but for all encodings. Not for all files, though, but
> only for selected files.

Which is what I don't like about it. It adds complexity
to the language and a feature that I don't think is really
necessary (restricting string literals for single-byte encodings.)
The other thing I don't like is that it still leaves the
trap for the unwary which I'm discussing.

> >>If
> >>there is no encoding declaration whatsoever, Python will
> >>assume that the source is us-ascii.
> [...]
> > The last sentence puzzles me. In 2.3, absent a declaration
> > (and absent a parameter on the interpreter) Python assumes
> > that the source is Latin-1, and phase 2 was to change
> > this to the 7-bit ascii subset (US-Ascii). That was the
> > original question at the start of this thread. I had assumed
> > that change was to go into 2.4, your reply made it seem
> > that it would go into 2.5 (maybe.) This statement makes
> > it seem that it is the current state in 2.3.
>
> With "will assume", I actually meant future tense. Not
> being a native speaker, I'm uncertain how to distinguish
> this from the conditional form that you apparently understood.

Ah. I understand now. I understood the final clause as a
form of present tense. To make it a future I'd probably
stick the word 'eventually' or 'in Release 2.5' in there:
"will eventually assume" or "In Release 2.5, Python will assume..."

> > Specifically, what would the Python 2.2 interpreter
> > have done if I handed it a program encoded in utf-8?
> > Was that a legitimate encoding?
>
> Yes, the Python interpeter would have processed it.
>
> print "Gr?? Gott"
>
> would have send the greeting to the terminal.

I see your point here. It does round trip successfully.

John Roth
>
> Regards,
> Martin




From dave at boost-consulting.com  Wed Aug 25 11:45:50 2004
From: dave at boost-consulting.com (David Abrahams)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:45:50 -0400
Subject: Unpythonic Python
References: <8a638f47.0408240034.653a92ff@posting.google.com>
	<zn4lvsib.fsf@python.net>
	<8a638f47.0408240700.13c39f57@posting.google.com>
	<uzn4j2s38.fsf@boost-consulting.com>
	<Xns9550A6C7E36FFukcoREMOVEfreenetrtw@130.133.1.4>
Message-ID: <uy8k31as1.fsf@boost-consulting.com>

Rob Williscroft <rtw at freenet.co.uk> writes:

> David Abrahams wrote in news:uzn4j2s38.fsf at boost-consulting.com in
> comp.lang.python: 
>
>>> That's not the problem.  I can download the file reliably from other
>>> machines. 
>
> At the same time, using http ?

I can download the file reliably using IE from my WinXP box.

I can download the file reliably using urllib from Cygwin Python 2.3.2

The 2nd element returned by urlretrieve is 

  'Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:50:17 GMT\r\nServer: Apache/2.0.40 (Red Hat Linux)\r\nLast-Modified: Wed, 25 Aug 20
  2 GMT\r\nETag: "b63d5b-20ec84b-18057e80"\r\nAccept-Ranges: bytes\r\nContent-Length: 34523211\r\nContent-Type:
  n/x-bzip2\r\nConnection: close\r\n'

>> Actually it appears that urllib is having some problem on Unix, at
>> least the one from Python-2.2.x.  This fails on Both FreeBSD and
>> Linux:
>> 
>>   urllib.urlretrieve(
>>         'http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cvstarballs/boost-cvsroot.tar.bz2',
>>         'boost-cvsroot.tar.bz2')
>> 
>> Trying again with Python 2.3 on Cygwin.

As you can see from the above, it works.  Is there a known urllib bug
in earlier Pythons?

> Is it possible the file is being (re) uploaded (via cvs) during your 
> cron job's download, thus truncating your download ?

I don't think so.

> Perhapse you should change to cvs:
>
>   os.system( 'cvs ... ' )

The problem with that is that I want to capture the whole CVS
history, not just today's state.

> FWIW, I tried downlading with IE using the link above I got a
> truncated 6 and bit MB's (16:15 BST (UTC +0100)).
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sorry, what does that mean?  Did it show that message in a dialog,
or...?

-- 
Dave Abrahams
Boost Consulting
http://www.boost-consulting.com


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 11:40:29 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 01:40:29 +1000
Subject: __name__ becoming read-write?
In-Reply-To: <uutji0h87t24cb1nej03gdggs0hg6eno3l@4ax.com>
References: <uutji0h87t24cb1nej03gdggs0hg6eno3l@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408230840705611a5@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:07:42 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Did I hallucinate something about __name__ becoming read-write?

> Better get my facts straight first....
> 
> But if true that would seem to solve the main objection to:

> the_horrible_name_I _need_to_call=transform(__f)

> And would mean that a byproduct of the PEP318 implementation would go
> 50% toward obviating the need for a PEP318 implementation.  At least
> by one measure.

No, it is now read-write, thanks to mwh. I think, though, that you're
misunderstanding the difference between setting a local variable in
the function, called '__name__', and setting the actual __name__ of
the function object.

>>> def foo(): pass
... 
>>> foo.__name__ = 'bar'
>>> foo.__name__
'bar'
>>> def foo():
...   __name__ = 'bar'
... 
>>> foo.__name__
'foo'
>>> foo.func_code.co_names  
('__name__',)


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Mon Aug 16 11:46:13 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 01:46:13 +1000
Subject: help - attributes namespace - is this a bug in PyXML
Message-ID: <1092671173.4120d6c5e7cdb@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

for the XML
<appel:RULESET xmlns:appel="http://www.w3.org/2001/02/appelv1"
xmlns:p3p="http://www.w3.org/2000/12/p3pv1">
<appel:RULE prompt="no">
<p3p:POLICY>
  <p3p:ACCESS appel:connective="non-and">
    <p3p:all/>
  </p3p:ACCESS>
</p3p:POLICY>
</appel:RULE>

if i getupto the "ACCESS" element and print its attribute name and value
using
if attribs != None and len(attribs) > 0:
        index = 0
	while index < attribs.length:
		print "attribute ", index, ": ",     attribs.item(index).nodeName, " has
value: ", attribs.item(index).nodeValue
		index += 1

it prints ACCESS having the attribute "appel:connective" with the value
"non-and"
the statement attribs.getNamedItem("appel:connective") however returns
None.
now i think its substituting the namespace for appel but then how would you
access the attribute, just 'connective' doesn't work, 'appel:connective'
doesn't either and http://www.w3.org/2001/02/appelv1:connective doesn't
work either.

thanks

cheers










----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Mon Aug 16 19:12:35 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:12:35 -0400
Subject: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xf3'
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1753.1092679714.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1753.1092679714.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2oct5pF88jocU1@uni-berlin.de>

oziko wrote:
> So I do not understan why the script uses an ascii codec, Am I not using 
> Unicode coding?

The strings use Unicode, but they have to be encoded somehow to be 
outputted. The default encoding is ASCII, which doesn't support all of 
those fancy Unicode characters. Figure out what encoding your terminal 
is expecting (probably utf-8) and encode all strings in that when 
they're outputted or set a default encoding.


From nzanella at cs.mun.ca  Tue Aug 10 16:43:05 2004
From: nzanella at cs.mun.ca (Neil Zanella)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 13:43:05 -0700
Subject: PyQt + PygreSQL
Message-ID: <b68d2f19.0408101243.42644a11@posting.google.com>

Hello,

I am using the following with python:

The PyQt python bindings:

http://www.riverbankcomputing.co.uk/pyqt/

based on the Qt GUI Application Framework:

http://www.trolletch.com/

as well as the PyGreSQL python bindings:

http://www.pygresql.org/

based on the PostgreSQL database server:

http://www.postgresql.org/

I have the following question. When I instantiate QDataTable with C++
I must ensure that a database connection is open, and then have no
problems, otherwise I will get popup widgets with errors.

How can I properly set the default database connection and have
QDataTable find it using the combination of Python + PyQt + PyGreSQL?

Thanks,

Neil


From no-mail-please at nospam.com  Sun Aug 29 20:16:36 2004
From: no-mail-please at nospam.com (Robert Oschler)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 20:16:36 -0400
Subject: Top Zope sites?
Message-ID: <ZNydnRyJtbf87K_cRVn-tw@adelphia.com>

Hello,

I've been perusing a book on Zope I have, and I'm still not quite "getting
it".  Can someone give me the URL's of 2 or 3 top-notch sites built upon
Zope, so I can see what it's really all about?  Is it a phpNuke type thing?
How popular is it?

Thanks.





From ggg at zzz.it  Wed Aug 25 15:10:51 2004
From: ggg at zzz.it (deelan)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 21:10:51 +0200
Subject: Python Image Manipulation
In-Reply-To: <cginj5$vu3$1@news01.intel.com>
References: <cginj5$vu3$1@news01.intel.com>
Message-ID: <rv5Xc.12149$B06.9356@news.edisontel.com>

Scott Brady Drummonds wrote:
> Can anyone recommend the easiest way of generating thumbnail images using a
> Python library?  I've seen that the Python Image Library (PIL) seems to do
> this but it isn't installed on my available systems.  I'd prefer to use
> something distributed with Python, if possible, but will install the library
> that makes this functionality easy as a second choice.

i'm not aware of python built-in functions to resize images,
but with PIL is dead easy to make thumbnails, check:

from "Python is Kung-Fu for the Web":
<http://blog.mans.de/archives/2004/03/28/python-is-kung-fu-for-the-web/>

import Image
im = Image.open(filename)
im.thumbnail((200, 200), Image.ANTIALIAS)
im.save(thumbnail, "JPEG", quality = 80, optimize = 1)

you can also feed to open() a file(-like) object, instead
of a filename.

HTH,
deelan.




From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Tue Aug 10 19:23:07 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 23:23:07 GMT
Subject: Python equivalent to a C trick
References: <1d7b6d0d.0408092255.1177908e@posting.google.com>
	<slrnchgsml.8e4.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>
	<WR8Sc.10717$KZ2.9031@fe2.texas.rr.com> <4119327f$1@pfaff2.ethz.ch>
Message-ID: <vNcSc.10767$KZ2.2593@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"Josef Meile" <jmeile at hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4119327f$1 at pfaff2.ethz.ch...
> >>>Example:
> >>>printf( "you have %i %s", num_eggs, num_eggs > 1 ? "eggs" : "egg" );
> >>
> >>print "you have %i %s" % ( num_eggs, ("egg","eggs")[num_eggs>1] )
> >
> >
> > I would choose "!=" instead of ">" as the comparison operator.  I think
the
> > accepted vernacular is:
> >
> > you have -2 eggs
> > you have -1 eggs
> > you have 0 eggs
> > you have 1 egg
> > you have 2 eggs
> > you have 3 eggs
> > you have 0.5 eggs
> No offense intended, but the negative and float cases don't make any
> sense for me on this context. You can't have -2 eggs or 0.5 eggs. The
> last case won't occure as well because the output is being parsed to
> int, so, you will get "you have 0 egg", which is again false. This error
> happens with both solutions (with > and with !=).
>
> Regards,
> Josef
No offense taken! :)

The OP was looking for a general solution to <condition> ? <if-true-action>
: <else-action>, then gave us the "you have n egg(s)" example.

In the general case, the number for comparison isn't always an integer
quantity such as eggs.  It could be "dollar(s)"/"euro(s)"/"Swiss
franc(s)"/"yen" (hmm, I guess "yen" isn't a problem...), or "ton(s) of
salami", or "pound(s) of cement", or "degree(s) Celsius", or...  Anyway,
even though eggs are usually counted from 1 to n in integer steps, other
quantities can easily be negative and/or continuous.  Still the singular -
in English, anyway - is usually used *only* when the quantity is 1.
Fractional and zero amounts, even though less than 1, still most naturally
use the plural form.

You have 0.5 dollars
You have gained 1 pound
You increased temperature by 0 degrees
You have -2 dollars (that is, you owe 2 dollars)

My point (which I guess didn't come across too well) was that this is a
typical coding and testing error, in which only positive integer values > 0
are assumed, because we often mentally equate "plural" with "more than 1".
But whether you are working in an integer, real, positive-only, or all
numbers context, testing with n != 1 should determine whether singular noun
should be used.

-- Paul




From meldron at meldron.org  Tue Aug 31 13:13:19 2004
From: meldron at meldron.org (Bernd Kaiser)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:13:19 +0200
Subject: GUI Designer
In-Reply-To: <wU0Zc.9845$7i2.529166@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <wU0Zc.9845$7i2.529166@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <2pjpqmFkrkn0U1@uni-berlin.de>

A.M wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Do we have any OpenSource GUI designer for Python ?
> 
> Thanks,
> Alan
> 
> 
If you want to use wxPython, check out Boa Constructor(open and os 
independent).

http://boa-constructor.sourceforge.net/

Regards,
meldron



From __peter__ at web.de  Fri Aug 13 09:28:01 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:28:01 +0200
Subject: !wtf ellipsis
References: <pan.2004.08.13.12.54.24.553466@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <cfifl1$qr4$07$1@news.t-online.com>

Jonas K?lker wrote:

> what (the hell) is Ellipsis?
> what's it good for?
> how do I use it; how does the interpreter use it?

Alex Martelli gave me the following explanation a while ago:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=yQRrb.2233%249_.98207%40news1.tin.it

Peter



From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Tue Aug 31 16:02:24 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:02:24 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: -c input
References: <367a4461.0408311151.59b61f54@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <loom.20040831T215809-780@post.gmane.org>

Mike Maxwell <maxwell <at> ldc.upenn.edu> writes:
> python -c "print 'hi'; for i in [1,2]: print i"
> 
> gives me an invalid syntax error, with the carat pointing to the end
> of the word 'for'.

Semicolons are only allowed with simple statements, not compound statements:

http://docs.python.org/ref/compound.html

Note that:

stmt_list  ::=  simple_stmt (";" simple_stmt)* [";"]

So that you can only join simple statements with ";" characters.

If you want to insert newlines, in unix, you can do this like:

> python -c "print 'hi'\
? for i in [1,2]:\
?     print i"
hi
1
2

Note that the '\' characters cause unix to include the newline in the string, 
instead of reading it as the command terminator.  I don't know how to do this 
in Windows.

Steve



From gohaku at earthlink.net  Thu Aug 19 18:54:09 2004
From: gohaku at earthlink.net (gohaku)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 18:54:09 -0400
Subject: ANN: pyxe
In-Reply-To: <41250363.6193453@news.t-online.de>
References: <41250363.6193453@news.t-online.de>
Message-ID: <AE6461B9-F232-11D8-A850-000A9574CFD8@earthlink.net>


On Aug 19, 2004, at 3:50 PM, Gerson Kurz wrote:

> pyxe is a small executable that will run python scripts on a machine
> that doesn't have Python installed. Example: You have the following
> hello.py:
> ....
> Easy, eh? Requirements
>
> - On the developer machine, you must have python23 installed.
> - On the target machine, no requirements.
> - Tested on Windows NT and Windows 2000. You are on your own with
> other systems (such as XP, 03 etc.)
>
> pyxe is free for any purpose whatsoever.
>

I doubt there's a version for Linux or better yet Mac OS X, is there?



From tim.peters at gmail.com  Sun Aug  1 18:59:42 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 18:59:42 -0400
Subject: transforming a list into a string
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011814020.21160-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
References: <pan.2004.07.31.12.27.23.547000@hotmail.com>
	<roy-982174.13075831072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<cegqdu$2fb$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<mailman.1020.1091310303.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-FDE83B.19595731072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1022.1091319366.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011814020.21160-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <1f7befae04080115595e5c154f@mail.gmail.com>

[Christopher T King]
> ...
> Curious, why isn't slicing of generators defined, using islice(), so "it1
> = iter(items)[0::2]" is valid?

The real question then is why iterators don't, because a
generator-function returns a generator-iterator, and the latter
supplies only the methods in the general iterator protocol (next() and
__iter__()).  That protocol was deliberately minimal, to make it easy
for all kinds of objects to play along.  islice() was invented long
after.  Now that islice() exists, it may indeed make sense to use it
to give a meaning to slice notation applied to iterators.  But doing
so requires that iterators implement the appropriate type slots to
"look like" they're also "sequences" (that's how dispatching for slice
notation works), and that's a lot more to ask of objects.  If only
some iterators implement it (like generator-iterators), then the
general interchangeability of iterable objects we enjoy today would be
damaged too.


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Mon Aug 16 12:41:41 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 02:41:41 +1000
Subject: help - attributes namespace - is this a bug in PyXML
In-Reply-To: <1092671173.4120d6c5e7cdb@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
References: <1092671173.4120d6c5e7cdb@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <1092674501.4120e3c5c48cf@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

also getAttribute("appel:connective") returns " ", ie it is not None but
when i print it out thats what i get
funnily getAttribute("appel:connective") for an element thats doesn't have
the attribute "appel:connective" still passes the test
if element.getAttribute("appel:connective") != None

so how can i retrieve an attribute of type "appel:connective", ie, prefixed
by the uri appel


Quoting Ajay <abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au>:

> hi!
>
> for the XML
> <appel:RULESET xmlns:appel="http://www.w3.org/2001/02/appelv1"
> xmlns:p3p="http://www.w3.org/2000/12/p3pv1">
> <appel:RULE prompt="no">
> <p3p:POLICY>
>   <p3p:ACCESS appel:connective="non-and">
>     <p3p:all/>
>   </p3p:ACCESS>
> </p3p:POLICY>
> </appel:RULE>
>
> if i getupto the "ACCESS" element and print its attribute name and value
> using
> if attribs != None and len(attribs) > 0:
>         index = 0
> 	while index < attribs.length:
> 		print "attribute ", index, ": ",     attribs.item(index).nodeName, "
> has
> value: ", attribs.item(index).nodeValue
> 		index += 1
>
> it prints ACCESS having the attribute "appel:connective" with the value
> "non-and"
> the statement attribs.getNamedItem("appel:connective") however returns
> None.
> now i think its substituting the namespace for appel but then how would
> you
> access the attribute, just 'connective' doesn't work, 'appel:connective'
> doesn't either and http://www.w3.org/2001/02/appelv1:connective doesn't
> work either.
>
> thanks
>
> cheers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Fri Aug  6 12:58:19 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 12:58:19 -0400
Subject: Prothon is switching to the .NET platform
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1257.1091769173.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <000401c47b59$32539220$0d01a8c0@MarkVaio> 
	<mailman.1257.1091769173.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061247130.22947-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Guido van Rossum wrote:

> So now I'm a bit disappointed to hear that you're giving all that up
> and switching to the CLR.

Ack!  I was looking forward to playing with and hacking on Prothon in the
future (I'm a big fan of prototypes), but .Net is a big turnoff
(especially coming from the Linux side of things).  Is this happening 
primarily to provide immediately access to large code libraries?



From paulpaterson at users.sourceforge.net  Fri Aug 20 22:24:58 2004
From: paulpaterson at users.sourceforge.net (Paul Paterson)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 02:24:58 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <_nyVc.5408$Jn5.3295@fe1.texas.rr.com>

My vote: J2 J3 C1

Is J2EE an option ;



From stefan at eischet.com  Fri Aug  6 12:51:02 2004
From: stefan at eischet.com (Stefan Eischet)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 18:51:02 +0200
Subject: tweaking @decorator syntax - yet another syntax
In-Reply-To: <8umdnWTWJtQw6Y7cRVn-uw@powergate.ca>
References: <b03e80d.0408040809.66c50ecf@posting.google.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408041328420.13532-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu>	<b03e80d.0408050041.1723eb3c@posting.google.com>	<1091715445.9931.17.camel@mango.cmc.ec.gc.ca>
	<mailman.1260.1091774627.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<8umdnWTWJtQw6Y7cRVn-uw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <CD18FE0C-E7C8-11D8-BDA6-000A95857E5C@eischet.com>

On 06.08.2004, at 14:08, Peter Hansen wrote:

> Stefan Eischet wrote:
>
>> I don't know if this particular syntax has been discussed
>> already... please feel free to bash me if it was. ;-)
>
> Bash bash.

Okay, I was asking for it. ;-) I didn't have the time to read the PEP
this morning, but I now have and still like the idea. For my
personal taste, it's way better than the ugly @ thing and a bit
more explicit than the "[]"-syntax.

>> How about using "is" after the def?
>
> Read the PEP.  Basically the same as the "as" variant.

Basically, yes. IMO there are a few important differences, though.

 From the PEP:

|Several other syntaxes have been proposed:
|def func(arg1, arg2, ...) as dec1, dec2, ...:
|    pass
|
|The absence of brackets makes it cumbersome to break long lists of
|decorators across multiple lines, and the keyword "as" doesn't have
|the same meaning as its use in the import statement. Plenty of
|alternatives to "as" [12] have been proposed. :-)

This one has optional brackets, so the breaking problems go away. ;-)

Just like the "[]" thing, this one should look familiar to Python
programmers. Lists, to me, imply that the object can be changed.
But tuples are constant, right? Or is it intended to be able to change
the decoration at runtime?

I personally also dislike the "[]"-syntax because its
placement looks quite random to me.

"is" is used in another way than usual, though, but I think it's
very close to the english meaning of "is".

Also from the PEP:

|without the intermediate assignment to the variable func. The
|decorators are near the function declaration. The @ sign makes
|it clear that something new is going on here.

"Something new" is exactly what I, personally, wouldn't like to
see in Python. How long is it supposed to look "new"? They didn't
introduce a new look or funky symbols for new style classes, for
example. When people have seen enough of @, will they have to introduce
even "newer" symbols? ;-)

But regardless of which syntax they choose, I guess I'll get used to
it sooner or later.

Cheers,
   Stefan



From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Aug  6 15:22:44 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 21:22:44 +0200
Subject: Unicode support
In-Reply-To: <cf0698$nm1@odah37.prod.google.com>
References: <cf0698$nm1@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <4113DA84.7070203@v.loewis.de>

Richy2004 wrote:
> NotImplementedError: .readline() is not implemented for UTF-16

As it says: this is, unfortunately, not implemented. Use readlines
instead.

> print (file.read())
[...]
> UnicodeEncodeError: 'charmap' codec can't encode characters in position
> 0-2: character maps to <undefined>

The the .read works perfectly. Don't try to print it, though!
You can only print when the terminal actually supports the characters,
which your terminal doesn't. Try

print repr(file.read())

instead.

> print tokens[0]
[...]
> UnicodeEncodeError: 'charmap' codec can't encode characters in position
> 0-2: character maps to <undefined>

Same issue: As Vincent explains, you can't print ARABIC LETTER NOON
to your terminal, as your terminal simply cannot display that character.

Regards,
Martin


From news at woody.datatailors.com  Wed Aug 11 09:36:37 2004
From: news at woody.datatailors.com (Peter van Kampen)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:36:37 +0200
Subject: Apache web server and CGI
References: <81a41dd.0408090447.7f27a092@posting.google.com>
	<10hf2ugjngver5e@corp.supernews.com>
	<81a41dd.0408092306.264beed@posting.google.com>
	<slrnchhcv5.mtn.news@woody.datatailors.com>
	<81a41dd.0408101143.43fea836@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <slrnchk875.p2u.news@woody.datatailors.com>

In article <81a41dd.0408101143.43fea836 at posting.google.com>, Lad wrote:

>> 

>> <Directory /usr/lib/cgi-bin/>
>>     AllowOverride None
>>     Options ExecCGI
>>     Order allow,deny
>>     Allow from all
>> </Directory>

> Thanks Peter for help. Now I can run cgi scripts in default 
> c:/program files/apache group/apache/cgi-bin/
> directory.
> The problem was that there was not last "/"
> 
> But how can I forced the Apache to allowed to run scripts in a
> different directory for example C:\Test\MyScripts\

I would guess you have something like the above in your httpd.conf

ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/ c:/program files/apache group/apache/cgi-bin/

<Directory c:/program files/apache group/apache/cgi-bin/>
    AllowOverride None
    Options ExecCGI
    Order allow,deny
    Allow from all
</Directory>

Simply replace c:/program files/apache group/apache/cgi-bin/ with
C:\Test\MyScripts

Hth,

PterK


-- 
Peter van Kampen
pterk -- at -- datatailors.com


From davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu  Fri Aug 20 02:48:32 2004
From: davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu (David Pokorny)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:48:32 -0700
Subject: Why is SETUP_FINALLY uninterruptable[sic]?
References: <2JmdnSiV4NZzGL_cRVn-pg@lmi.net>
	<mailman.1926.1092889085.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <guadnQ1fOIO9ArjcRVn-hQ@lmi.net>

Thanks! This has been very illuminating.

David




From nospam at nowhere.hu  Sat Aug 21 07:16:35 2004
From: nospam at nowhere.hu (Miklós)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 13:16:35 +0200
Subject: Semantic troubles with the word "free" [Was: My only complaint
	about Python]
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<pan.2004.08.20.05.47.36.399065@large.net>
	<87isbepaiy.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>
	<10icl8fn39skq3e@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <cg7abi$595$1@namru.matavnet.hu>


"Jeff Shannon" <jeff at ccvcorp.com> wrote in message
news:10icl8fn39skq3e at corp.supernews.com...
> 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de wrote:
> >flab ba <flab at large.net> writes:
> >
> >all humbug. Visual C++ is nowhere near free, it's all proprietary.
>
> That's free-as-in-beer, not Free-as-in-speech.
>
> It's a shame that, at least in English, the most natural word to use for
> each of these two different concepts just happens to be the same word.
> But such is the case.  (I don't think it's practical to try to convince
> everyone, worldwide, to refer to it as 'gratis' and 'liberte'...)  And
> given that it *is* the case, it would be much more pleasant if people
> could use the word for both of its meanings without being criticized by
> people who are philosophically devoted to only one of those meanings.

It makes me smile that  you keep getting into such semantic troubles unless
you express yourself in such a roundabout way.
I think it would be a really wise thing to always use the word 'gratis'  for
'free-as-in-beer'.

Btw, my native language (Hungarian) avoids another serious semantic
booby-trap in English, with the ambigous word "love"...  But at least in
c.l.p.
this rarely makes confusion. ;)

Mikl?s

>
> Jeff Shannon
> Technician/Programmer
> Credit International
>




From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Tue Aug 10 22:58:01 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 19:58:01 -0700
Subject: IDLE vs Command Line
References: <8PidncxTb4muxITcRVn-oQ@adelphia.com>
Message-ID: <1092193503.54033@news.commspeed.net>


"Jesse B." <jburns131 at adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:8PidncxTb4muxITcRVn-oQ at adelphia.com...
> I like to work with xemacs, so I've been coding modules with xemacs and
> running them using the dos prompt (using windows port of xemacs). Some
> scripts that work fine with IDLE don't work at the dos prompt. For
example:
>
> import random
>
> for i in range(10):
>     x = random.random()
>     print x
>
> This simple script doesn't work if  I use the command prompt, with this
> syntax: python random.py
>
> I am just wondering why that is.
>
 It is running the copy of random.py from the python lib not your random.py

Tom

P.S. it is not trying to import itself!




From grv575 at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 23 23:29:49 2004
From: grv575 at hotmail.com (grv575)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 20:29:49 -0700
Subject: profiler
Message-ID: <144d0df.0408231929.496b2e7d@posting.google.com>

I have some speed-critical loops involving numarray arrays and need to
see which part is taking all the time.  Is there a seperate profiling
tool or how do you go about profiling everything (broken down by
module/function) in an interpreted language like python?


From M.Waack at gmx.de  Wed Aug 25 14:55:31 2004
From: M.Waack at gmx.de (Mathias Waack)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 20:55:31 +0200
Subject: Capturing exceptions?
References: <pan.2004.08.25.17.12.17.521438@yahoo.com.au>
	<a9uuv1-dtf.ln1@valpo.de>
	<pan.2004.08.25.18.17.43.658391@yahoo.com.au>
Message-ID: <4u3vv1-vkg.ln1@valpo.de>

Dfenestr8 wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:19:06 +0200, Mathias Waack wrote:
> 
>> Dfenestr8 wrote:
>>> What's the easiest way to capture the traceback from an
>>> exception, and write it to a file? Ideally, I'd like to be able
>>> to do something like:
>>> 
>>>>try:
>>>>main()
>>>>except:
>>>>write the traceback to a file
>> 
>> Have a look at the traceback module.
>> 
>> Mathias
> 
> I did. Thanx. But I'm afraid I don't understand it.

import traceback
try: raise Exception, "python is so cool;)"
except: traceback.print_exc(None,file("exc.trc","w"))

Does it that what you want?

Mathias


From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Fri Aug 20 16:45:55 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:45:55 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2058.1093016284.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl>	<ZFoVc.360$MR2.1503@news1.mts.net>
	<mailman.2058.1093016284.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10icompmccbgn62@corp.supernews.com>

Tim Hochberg wrote:

> Reid Nichol wrote:
>
>> You're aware that a quantum leap means a extremely small leap, right?
>
>
> While quanta are typically very-very-very small, last I checked the 
> key feature of quantum transitions is not that they're small, but that 
> there are no intermediate steps. The object is in state A then it's in 
> state B, but it's never halfway (or anywhere) between. Like most 
> quantum stuff it's better not to think about that too closely.


And let's note, here, that "quantum" is not by any means restricted to 
the domain of quantum-mechanical physics.  It's true that, within that 
domain, quanta are almost always a very small amount.  But, as Tim says, 
the important feature of a quantum is that it's the smallest possible 
change of a given measurement, and implies a discrete (rather than 
continuum) underpinning to that measurement.  It just so happens that 
the most well-known and talked-about quantum domains are related to 
subatomic physics, where the quanta involved are indeed very very small; 
but there's no /a priori/ restriction of quanta to apply only in that field.

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From mov_21h at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 18 19:16:40 2004
From: mov_21h at yahoo.com (Bigbowser)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:16:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <4123DD7C.2050703@wickedgrey.com>
Message-ID: <20040818231640.8880.qmail@web50008.mail.yahoo.com>

15 ^^ been programming in python for about  2 weeks
now, but i have prgrammed before in C and asm [ 16 +
32 bit :) ]  

I decided to choose python as my scripting language
because i asked a friend wether to go for python or
ruby, he reccommended python due to its user base and
mass of addons, widgets etc.. 

So far so good :P

--- "Eli Stevens (WG.c)" <listsub at wickedgrey.com>
wrote:

> Lucas Raab wrote:
> 
> > One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is
> the average age of a
> > Python programmer?
> 
> 25 here, Python newbie (less than a year, I think).
> 
> I'm sad that nobody else in this thread has spoken
> in hushed, reverent 
> tones about my gateway drug, LogoWriter.  I was 10
> when my fifth grade 
> math class went to the school computer lab and made
> the turtle crawl 
> around the screen.  From there, QBasic, C++,
> C-because-school-made-me, 
> Java-because-work-made-me, Python-to-save-me.  ;)
> 
> Handy tip: if you were anything like me, _don't_ go
> back and try to read 
> your old code.  I had variable names like "qwer"
> "qwert" and "qwerty", 
> alongside classics like "a", "b" and "c."
> 
> *Shudder*
> Eli
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 



		
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From ben at benlast.com  Wed Aug 25 04:49:44 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:49:44 +0100
Subject: using pexpect to control python
In-Reply-To: <412bc504$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPMEFPCFAA.ben@benlast.com>

> From Maurice LING
> Another thing which I'm thinking previously is how can I embed a python
> interpreter (not compiler) that does line by line interpretation and
> execution, in a python program? I realized that python's language
> services has a compile package that can be invoked to compile python
> source into python bytecodes but that's provided that the codes are in a
> file. Perhaps what I'm interested may be how to embed and use the
> interactive mode of python interpreter in a python program?

Sounds to me like you're doing the sort of thing that a Python shell written
in python already does.  The codeop package provides a CommandCompiler()
class that will compile lines of Python from strings at runtime.  The exec
statement then executes the bytecode objects.  The
code.InteractiveInterpreter class shows how this can be used to build an
interpreter shell.  Take a look at http://quasi-shell.sourceforge.net/
(source freely available, naturally!) for more examples.  Most of the stuff
you want is in the QuasiInterpreter class that inherits heavily from
code.InteractiveInterpreter.

Although you say "interpreter (not compiler)", the compile()/exec()
combination will work with individual lines (or rather, blocks), so don't
think of it as full source compilation.  That's not Pythonic :)

regards
ben



From p at trick.lu  Wed Aug 18 11:58:24 2004
From: p at trick.lu (Patrick Useldinger)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:58:24 +0200
Subject: Conoscere i processi presenti in windows
In-Reply-To: <41230f6a.7833266@news.marelli.it>
References: <41230f6a.7833266@news.marelli.it>
Message-ID: <41237ca0$1@news.vo.lu>

Alberto wrote:

> ciao,
> volevo chiedere se esistono API che permettono dal Python di:
> - conoscere quali processi sono presenti in windows ad un certo
> momento?
> - terminare un processo ?
> 
> grazie
> Alberto

see "The Python for Windows Extentions" on 
http://starship.python.net/crew/mhammond/

-- 
Linux user # 359658


From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 12 00:40:48 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 00:40:48 -0400
Subject: The winner of the Python Decorator Poll is...
In-Reply-To: <xq2dnWPxueN-bIfcRVn-jw@powergate.ca>
References: <Ue-dnX0CBNhaEYfcRVn-ig@comcast.com>
	<xq2dnWPxueN-bIfcRVn-jw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <5LKdnbxzt-9NaYfcRVn-tg@powergate.ca>

Peter Hansen wrote:

> The poll results show that by a ratio of 6 to 1, people
> who voted prefer either of the second two options to the
> first one.  Nothing more, nothing less. 

I should have said "prefer *one* of the second two options",
but it's not really germane to my point...


From wilberforce at gmail.com  Sun Aug 29 09:22:41 2004
From: wilberforce at gmail.com (xtian)
Date: 29 Aug 2004 06:22:41 -0700
Subject: Get all subdirs
Message-ID: <cgslb1$n7h@odah37.prod.google.com>

Florian Lindner wrote:
> Hello,
> how can I get all subdirectories of a given directory.
os.listdir(dir)
> doesn't differentiate between directories and files, os.walk seems to
me a
> bit overkill since it also descends in the subdirs.
> Thx,
> Florian

Use os.path.isdir():

>>> from os.path import isdir, join
>>> d = "c:/downloads/python"
>>> subdirs = [sub for sub in os.listdir(d) if isdir(join(d, sub))]
>>> print subdirs
['adodbapi-2.0.1', 'pyblosxom', 'pygame', 'quasi_08']

Cheers,
xtian



From peufeu at free.fr  Thu Aug  5 11:47:59 2004
From: peufeu at free.fr (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Pierre-Fr=E9d=E9ric_Caillaud?=)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 17:47:59 +0200
Subject: checking whether a var is empty or not
References: <cec880$8ct$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu> <opsbxubr1g1v4ijd@musicbox>
	<slrnch0vat.rhb.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
Message-ID: <opsb9nh9xd1v4ijd@musicbox>


> No, in PHP, you can find out if a variable exists using isset(). And  
> trying
> to dereference an uninitialized variable will generate a warning if you  
> have
> error reporting turned up all the way (error_reporting(E_ALL)).
>

	WRONG !!!!!

	Example in this stupid language :

<?php

	echo "<p>one : ";
	var_dump(isset( $a ));
	
	$a = 1;
	echo "<p>two : ";
	var_dump(isset( $a ));
	
	$a = null;
	echo "<p>three : ";
	var_dump(isset( $a ));

?>

	Output :


one : bool(false)

two : bool(true)

three : bool(false)


	Get it ?





From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 22:07:08 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 12:07:08 +1000
Subject: Confused about pep 318
In-Reply-To: <10h4vhcfbsv6t30@corp.supernews.com>
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com><mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org><d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com><Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu><mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org><10h4s026oapbhf1@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1223.1091728969.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<10h4vhcfbsv6t30@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040805190729c2c264@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:36:23 -0500, Edward K. Ream <edreamleo at charter.net> wrote:
> To repeat: given that pep 318 is grossly misleading, I contend that no
> proper discussion of it has ever taken place.  Sorry, but if you actively
> mislead the public, then the public _does_ have a right to complain.  The
> web is a huge place.  Expecting people to track it without proper notice of
> what is being discussed is patently unfair.

"Actively mislead the public"? What the hell is that supposed to mean?
Look, you keep insinuating that there was some sort of evil plot to slip
this into Python. I can assure you that this is NOT true, and I'm getting
more than a little bit fed up with this argument.

This feature was put into a2 because Guido's judgment was that it 
was appropriate to do so. The whole _point_ of an alpha cycle is that 
we can try things out, and we don't have to be backwards compatible
if it turns out to have been a bad decision.

As I've stated, _repeatedly_, yes, it would have been better had the PEP
been kept up to date. This didn't happen, but people are working on this.


From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 11:22:10 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:22:10 -0500
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl>
Message-ID: <ZFoVc.360$MR2.1503@news1.mts.net>

Gerrit Muller wrote:
> Roel Schroeven wrote:
> 
>> Roel Schroeven wrote:
>>
>>> I spotted some errors in your list, added new entries, and made a 
>>> histogram: http://roelschroeven.net/pythonages/
>>
>>
> Very cool. It might be good idea to add a date and time at the top, 
> since new datapoint keep coming in?
How about labels for the axes as well.


> and then a quantum leap towards Python.
You're aware that a quantum leap means a extremely small leap, right?


From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 02:58:30 2004
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 23:58:30 -0700
Subject: Weave - inline C
References: <6f402501.0408232319.5967f0d@posting.google.com>
	<cgfqpg$kvt$1@news1.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <6f402501.0408242258.3142080@posting.google.com>

Robert Kern <rkern at ucsd.edu> wrote in message news:<cgfqpg$kvt$1 at news1.ucsd.edu>...
> Michael Foord wrote:
> > Has anyone had success using weave with gcc for windows (standard
> > windows distribution python)?
> > 
> > I have my distutils setup to use gcc (via mingw32) - which it does
> > fine. I've compiled and installed various modules with it. Weave
> > itself installs fine, picking up the settings from distutils.
> > 
> > However it has it's own version of distutils 'scipy_distutils' that it
> > uses to compile the C it is given - which complains that it can't find
> > msvcc.... The documentation included (which is actually for the 0.2
> > version) gives no hints and I wondered if anyone had any success in
> > using it ?
> 
> Use compiler='gcc' as a keyword argument for weave.inline(), etc.
> 
> Yes, the documentation is fantastically out of date.
> 

Thanks very much.
I'll try that when I get home tonight.
Much appreciated.


Fuzzy


http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 09:00:37 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:00:37 +0200
Subject: internal functions [Re: How do you feel ?]
References: <mailman.940.1087222870.6949.python-list@python.org>
	<mailman.1320.1091837963.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<MsudnbLNk8GFuYncRVn-rA@powergate.ca>
	<4117862E.3000907@charter.net> <412cace1$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
Message-ID: <1gj4s1c.13ty3kj1g8i5wxN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Scott David Daniels <Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org> wrote:

> Howard Stearns wrote:
   ... 
> > Sorry. When I said "define a named function in a top-level assignment",
> > I didn't just mean using a reference to a previously defined function
> > (i.e., it's name), I meant actually defining the function in the 
> > assignment.

If you (Howard) mean horrors such as
    foo = lambda x: x + 23
the Pythonic way is
    def foo(x): return x + 23
with absolutely identical results.


> > In very complex cases, I lament the shear distance between the function
> > definition and the one place in the code where it is referenced. (Again,

What distance?  Put the def right before that 'one place in the code',
zero distance. 

> >>> assignments where I'd like create a function to use as the the value
> >>> being assigned. I don't know how to define a named function in a 

You sure do appear to ignore the equivalence between 'foo = lambda ...'
and def foo( ...'.  What do you think def _does_...?

> Maybe this is what you mean:
> 
> def dodef(val):
>      global globfunc
>      def globfunc(other):
>          return val, other
> 
> This works just fine.

It works, sort of, but each call to dodef steps right over the previous
value of global globfunc, and I think that may lead to nasty bugs.  I
much prefer the style:

def dodef(val):
    def anyfunc(other): return val, other
    return anyfunc

and if the caller wants to assign this function to name 'foofunc', it's
the caller's job to say

foofunc = dodef(23)


I think this is much more transparent and thus less error-prone.


Alex


From Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com  Fri Aug  6 09:29:12 2004
From: Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com (Ames Andreas (MPA/DF))
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:29:12 +0200
Subject: q about cgi.FieldStorage (was: And now to sth. completely
	different: Forget about decorators, think cgi.FieldStorage)
Message-ID: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA1D@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>

Hi,

sorry for following-up to myself.  Some remarks:

1) Please excuse the bogus original message. I wrote it a minute
   before I knocked off work and I promise to never do so again :-)

2) What I really wanted to know was:  FieldStorage writes what it
   reads from the stream that is given to its constructor's fp (or
   sys.stdin by default) to a temporary file only _in some cases_.  My
   question was or rather should have been, if it was possible in any
   case to get what FieldStorage has read from its input stream either
   as a string or as a file.

3) After staring at FieldStorage's source code for some time now I
   seem to be sure that this isn't possible because the input stream
   is read to a local variable in some cases, i. e. when the request
   is url-encoded.


cheers,

andreas



From artur_spruce at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 14 16:35:06 2004
From: artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR)
Date: 14 Aug 2004 13:35:06 -0700
Subject: !wtf ellipsis
References: <pan.2004.08.13.12.54.24.553466@yahoo.com>
	<voiqh0p0ce6ui77498vqdabcrl7asro33i@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <b840abf4.0408141235.6f675f0f@posting.google.com>

Christos "TZOTZIOY" Georgiou <tzot at sil-tec.gr> wrote in message news:<voiqh0p0ce6ui77498vqdabcrl7asro33i at 4ax.com>...
> On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:54:24 +0200, rumours say that Jonas K?lker
> <jonaskoelker at yahoo.com> might have written:
> 
> >what (the hell) is Ellipsis?
> >what's it good for?
> 
> Peter provided a link answering your questions.  As a side note, I have
> used Ellipsis instead of None as a very handy last item put in queues in
> threaded programs (after all, "ellipsis" means "absence" or "lack" in
> English :)  Thus I avoid creating dummy classes to mark the end of
> data...

It's funny, I always understood ellipsis ('...') as a kind of a
wildcard or abbreviation mark, rather than absence mark. For example,
you'd write:

a[1], a[2], ..., a[N]

which means "all values from a[1] to a[N]" or something like that.

But then of course it's just a symbol...

AdSR


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 21 14:46:29 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:46:29 -0400
Subject: __metaclass__ and __author__ are already decorators
In-Reply-To: <2opgsoFd7807U1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <mailman.2107.1093099087.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2opgsoFd7807U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <cg85a6$r8r$7@sea.gmane.org>

Leif K-Brooks wrote:

> Paul Morrow wrote:
> 
>> Thinking about decorators, and looking at what we are already doing in 
>> our Python code, it seems that __metaclass__, __author__, __version__, 
>> etc. are all examples of decorators.  So we already have a decorator 
>> syntax.  What is the compelling reason to invent a new one?  And if we 
>> do, what's to become of the old one?
>> <snip>
> 
> 
> I've thought about something along the lines of your suggestion before, 
> but it doesn't seem very Pythonic to assign special meaning to function 
> variables with special names to me. It's essentially a new syntax, but 
> disguised as an old syntax with an entirely different meaning.

We just need to stop thinking of them as local function variables. 
Instead we should think of __xxx__ attributes as describing the function 
itself (i.e. as a decorator would), as I believe that is almost always 
the author's intention when he/she uses such names inside of a 
function/method definition.  He wants to say something about the 
function (who wrote it, it's version, etc.), and is probably sad that it 
has the side-effect of creating a local variable.  So it probably 
shouldn't have that side-effect anymore.  It should create a function 
attribute instead (not to be confused with a local variable).

For classes, it's much easier to accept this new way of looking at 
__xxx__ attributes because it's consistent with our intention behind 
them (as names for metadata rather than normal, inheritable class 
attributes).





From __peter__ at web.de  Sat Aug 21 06:40:27 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:40:27 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl> <ZFoVc.360$MR2.1503@news1.mts.net>
Message-ID: <cg78qs$q10$05$1@news.t-online.com>

Reid Nichol wrote:

>> and then a quantum leap towards Python.
> You're aware that a quantum leap means a extremely small leap, right?

(from a random walk through the internet)

            size [m]    jumps [m]             ratio
man         2            8                        4(*)
grasshopper 2e-2         4e-1(*)                 20
electron    2*3e-15      5e-11 (Bohr radius)   8000(*)  

(*) my calculation

That's one small step for electricity, one giant leap for an electron...
Based on the above evidence a 10m Python should jump 80 kilometers (50
miles), so beware...

Peter




From alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 20 21:18:53 2004
From: alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 18:18:53 -0700
Subject: I would really like the code for a dome in vpython
References: <8f17f4bc.0408181349.46c34b2@posting.google.com>
	<clp7i09uubansi27ha70eblegbdhse18g3@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <8f17f4bc.0408201718.139fcfd8@posting.google.com>

> I might have some other suggestions if a understood what you were
> trying to accomplish, and why.

I am just trying to make a dome in vpython. I am trying to render
images of mosques that I am making.


From grv575 at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 24 21:54:24 2004
From: grv575 at hotmail.com (grv575)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 18:54:24 -0700
Subject: Python and C, looking for a C IDE
References: <6f402501.0408240353.2a5b8a84@posting.google.com>
	<du74qmstkb3.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>
Message-ID: <144d0df.0408241754.6bac1a44@posting.google.com>

C IDE?  DevC++ is sweet.  It's on sourceforge.  Python IDEs --
winpython on windows, eric3 on linux is great.  Also compile wxPython
to get pyCrust (windows or linux).  Really good code completion/call
tips.


From chris.cavalaria at free.fr  Tue Aug 24 18:57:41 2004
From: chris.cavalaria at free.fr (Christophe Cavalaria)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:57:41 +0200
Subject: PEP318: radical notion
References: <Xns954E72EC48C5Earienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>
	<412a4222$0$293$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<d3247b7a.0408241413.55b34cb2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <412bc7e6$0$4065$626a14ce@news.free.fr>

Arien Malec wrote:

> Christophe Cavalaria <chris.cavalaria at free.fr> wrote in message
> news:<412a4222$0$293$626a14ce at news.free.fr>...
>> Arien Malec wrote:
> 
>> > 1) Make PEP318 *only* implement problem (1). That is, create sematics
>> > for defining and retrieving function/method/class metadata
>> > 2) Create a new default metaclass that uses metadata for class/static
>> > method definitions to perform the necessary class/staticmethod
>> > transformations. Perhaps use this metaclass as default in 2.4 only via
>> > a "from __future__ import foo".
>> > 3) Leave any arbitrary transformations to be implemented via custom
>> > metaclasses -- these metaclasses will have access to the custom
>> > metadata to trigger method def transformations.
> 
>> Unfortunately for you, you can use decorators on normal functions and not
>> only on member functions. It rules out any metaclass based
>> implementation.
> 
> Is there a valid use case that supports arbitrary magical non-metadata
> transformations of standalone functions?
> 
> Arien

memoize for example. No metadata, only transformation, doesn't really apply
to a member function in fact ( although it might be possible ?

Why is it that there are always some people who doesn't understand all the
possibilities of decorators and so want to minimise their usefulness ?


From me at privacy.net  Sun Aug  8 14:19:30 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Dan Sommers)
Date: 08 Aug 2004 14:19:30 -0400
Subject: Encryption between Python & PHP
References: <mailman.1357.1091970037.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<m2smaxlq8e.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
	<mailman.1362.1091979458.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m2brhllcgd.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>

On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 16:37:33 +0100,
Geoff Caplan <geoff at variosoft.com> wrote:

> Dan,

Not just me, thank goodness.  The entire Python community.  ;-)

DS> I can't help much with your other questions, but I do know about this
DS> one.  By definition, blowfish is blowfish is blowfish.  Any (properly
DS> implemented) blowfish library will be compatible with another; if you
DS> encode something with one library, you will be able to decode it with
DS> the other.

> Thanks for that. Looks like I should persist and track down the
> problem. Perhaps something to do with the keys? When I try to
> decrypt I am getting binary garbage out instead of an ascii string.

> Any pointers about where to start looking would be welcome!

I guess the usual pointers apply:  Create the absolute smallest program
that fails.  Ask the vendors/authors of the library and/or programming
language you're using.  Post/Email the code, the input, the actual
output, what you expected to be the output, and why you expected that
output.

I'm pretty sure that counterpane (blowfish' creator, IIRC) has test
vectors, too.  If you can encrypt *or* decrypt them, but not both, that
points at one part of your application or another as well.

Regards,
Dan

-- 
Dan Sommers
<http://www.tombstonezero.net/dan/>
Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.


From bulatov at engr.orst.edu  Mon Aug  2 19:51:46 2004
From: bulatov at engr.orst.edu (Yaroslav Bulatov)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 16:51:46 -0700
Subject: Microbenchmark: Summing over array of doubles
References: <4d642979.0407312049.7a8aecab@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011847510.21160-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <4d642979.0408021551.586e1d1f@posting.google.com>

Christopher T King <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote in message news:<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011847510.21160-100000 at ccc4.wpi.edu>...
> On 31 Jul 2004, Yaroslav Bulatov wrote:
> 
> > I'm doing intensive computation on arrays in Python, so if you have
> > suggestions on Python/C solutions that could push the envelope, please
> > let me know.
> 
> If you're doing mostly vector calculations as opposed to summing, I've
> been doing some work on adding SIMD support to numarray, with pleasing
> results (around 2x speedups).  I've also done some work adding local
> parallel processing support to numarray, with not-so-pleasing results
> (mostly due to Python overhead).
> 
> Regarding your results:
> 
> numarray should be just as fast as the -O2 C version.  I was puzzled at
> first as to where the speed discrepancy came from, but the culprit is in
> the -O2 flag:  gcc -O2 noticies that sum is never used, and thus removes
> the loop entirely.  As a matter of fact, there isn't even any fadd 
> instruction in the assembler output:
> 
>         call    clock
>         movl    %eax, %esi
>         movl    $9999999, %ebx
> .L11:
>         decl    %ebx
>         jns     .L11
>         subl    $16, %esp
>         call    clock
> 
> As you can see, the 21ms you're seeing is the time spent counting down
> from 9,999,999 to 0.  To obtain correct results, add a line such as
> 'printf("%f\n",sum);' after the main loop in the C version.  This will
> force gcc to leave the actual calculation in place and give you accurate
> results.
> 
> The above fix will likely render numarray faster than the C version.  
> Using gcc -O3 rather than gcc -O2 will get fairer results, as this is what 
> numarray uses.

You are right, how silly of me! Fixing the script now results in 130
millis mean, 8.42 millis standard deviation, which is slower than
numarray (104, 2.6 respectively). I wonder why numarray gives faster
results on such a simple task?


> Is there any reason why in the Python/numarray version, you use 
> Numeric's RandomArray rather than numarray.random_array?  It shouldn't 
> affect your results, but it would speed up initialization time a bit.

There isn't a good reason, I simply didn't know about
numarray.random_array

> 
> There are a few inefficiences in the pytime module (mostly involving 
> range() and *args/**kwargs), but I don't think they'll have too big of an 
> impact on your results.  Instead, I'd suggest running the numarray/Numeric 
> tests using Psyco to remove much of the Python overhead.
> 
> For completeness, I'd also suggest both running the Java version using a 
> JIT compiler such as Kaffe, and compiling it natively using gcj (the 
> latter should approach the speed of C).


From dperl at rogers.com  Fri Aug 27 13:06:06 2004
From: dperl at rogers.com (Dan Perl)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:06:06 GMT
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
Message-ID: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>

Here is a python feature that I would like: to be able to import modules
from an archive like the jar files in Java.  Maybe a regular tar file?
Maybe a python specific file type, let's call it a 'par' file?

It would be useful in packaging an python library.  Sure, there's always the
python packages, but a single file instead of a whole directory tree would
be more convenient.  I am particularly interested because I am working on a
framework/toolkit and I am using a configuration divided into several
modules.  It would be nice to be able to save configurations (combinations
of several modules) into single archive files and then switch between
configurations by pointing to one such archive file.

I am quite new to python so I should ask first whether there is already
something like that, although I did a search already.  Or maybe such a
feature has already been discussed somewhere?  If this is an original idea,
how can I propose it for future releases?

Dan Perl
(yes, I'm Mr. Perl, but I'm using Python, after all Perl is not my middle
name, it's my last name)




From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Wed Aug 18 10:08:41 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 10:08:41 -0400
Subject: Help passing variables.
In-Reply-To: <8ff6f02e.0408180321.27b4cc39@posting.google.com>
References: <8ff6f02e.0408180321.27b4cc39@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408181002390.32166-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On 18 Aug 2004, aToaster wrote:

>  I started off by trying to make a simple calculator program and I
> need to pass the calcTotal variable in and out of the ButtonHandler
> function, how do I do this?

The quick answer is that in buttonHandler_a(), you have to decalre 
calcTotal global; otherwise it will assume it's a local value:

     def buttonHandler_a(self, argument1, argument2):
             global calcTotal
             print "You have clicked :", argument2
             calcTotal = calcTotal +argument1
             print calcTotal

The long answer is that anytime you think you need a global variable, you 
probably don't.  The better way to go about this is to have calcTotal be a 
property of CalcApp ("self.calcTotal = 0" in CalcApp.__init__()).  This 
way, CalcApp will be re-entrant, in the case that you ever need to 
instantiate more than one of CalcApp (something you probably wouldn't do 
with an application like that, but a good practice nonetheless).





From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Fri Aug 27 15:12:31 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:12:31 GMT
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87hdqok9i6.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1rfz68ely9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<876574k7du.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1r3c28ejis.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <zILXc.54863$xi6.26091@fe2.texas.rr.com>


"Kjetil Torgrim Homme" <kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no> wrote in message
news:1r3c28ejis.fsf at rovereto.ifi.uio.no...
> [Isaac To]:
> >
> >   When Python is concerned and Emacs is not, Python only sees there
> >   is indentation, and only indentation, to define the suites.  And
> >   it is also what people will perceive when they stare at the code.
> >   There is nothing to be inconsistent with it.
>
> how long do you have to stare before spotting the bug?
>
>     db.update_name(person)
>     if is_student(person):
>         db.update_courses(person)
>         db.commit()
>
> only students have their names updated.  I wonder why.
>
> real world examples have taken hours or days.
> -- 
> Kjetil T.

Here's a real-world C example, took us several weeks to track down - all the
programmer did was add some debugging code:

  db->startTransaction();
  db->update_name(person);

  if ( is_student(person) )
        log("update student %s", person->name );
        db->update_courses(person);
-------------------------------------------page
break-----------------------------
  db->commit();

Everybody has their courses updated whether students or not - why???

On the hardcopy, the update_courses() call was the last line on the page,
which made it that much harder to spot.

In fact, you can cite examples on this argument in either direction; it is
more than a little condescending to preach that "in the real world, my way
is the right way."

As far as Python goes, I think bracelessness is one of its defining
features; if some day braces were to get included in Python a la C or Java,
then it will cease to be Python.

-- Paul




From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Tue Aug 10 16:55:19 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 22:55:19 +0200
Subject: Decorator "platform"
In-Reply-To: <tuCdncnG2vXrsoTcRVn-uQ@comcast.com>
References: <2nsoofF49frcU1@uni-berlin.de> <tuCdncnG2vXrsoTcRVn-uQ@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <2nsqiaF4h52jU1@uni-berlin.de>

Doug Holton wrote:
> Reinhold Birkenfeld wrote:
>> it would be a big advantage to
>> everyone following to have the different uses of decorators collected,
>> to serve as a starting point or a repository of what's possible.
>> 
>> What I have in mind is a sort of "decorator library" where everyone who
>> has written a useful function of that kind can share it with others,
>> instead of only posting it here. As I don't know whether there will be a
>> "decorators" module in the stdlib, this would serve as a replacement
>> until decorators are a final language feature.
>> 
>> How would one realise such a project?
> 
> Maybe you could create a PythonDecoratorLibrary page at the Python wiki: 
> http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecoratorLibrary

[x] done. Thanks for the good idea!

I hope you use this wikipage to publish your decorator solutions!

Reinhold

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Sat Aug 21 16:24:59 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:24:59 -0400
Subject: __metaclass__ and __author__ are already decorators
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2116.1093113995.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2107.1093099087.5135.python-list@python.org>	<2opgsoFd7807U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<mailman.2116.1093113995.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2opp6gFdg3e7U1@uni-berlin.de>

Paul Morrow wrote:
> We just need to stop thinking of them as local function variables. 
> Instead we should think of __xxx__ attributes as describing the function 
> itself (i.e. as a decorator would), as I believe that is almost always 
> the author's intention when he/she uses such names inside of a 
> function/method definition.  He wants to say something about the 
> function (who wrote it, it's version, etc.), and is probably sad that it 
> has the side-effect of creating a local variable.  So it probably 
> shouldn't have that side-effect anymore.  It should create a function 
> attribute instead (not to be confused with a local variable).

Which is, like I said, assigning new meaning to an old syntax. That 
seems confusing to me; why not just create a new syntax?


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Tue Aug 24 18:32:10 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 22:32:10 GMT
Subject: python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
References: <mailman.2274.1093330945.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <KlPWc.18779$v86.747@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"Brett Cannon" <bac at OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote in message
news:mailman.2274.1093330945.5135.python-list at python.org...
> python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> This is a summary of traffic on the `python-dev mailing list`_ from
> August 01, 2004 through August 15, 2004.  It is intended to inform the
> wider Python community of on-going developments on the list.  To comment
> on anything mentioned here, just post to `comp.lang.python`_ (or email
> python-list at python.org which is a gateway to the newsgroup) with a
> subject line mentioning what you are discussing.

< my emphasis>

> All python-dev members
> are interested in seeing ideas discussed by the community, so don't
> hesitate to take a stance on something.

<snip>

> OK, tirade time.  If you don't want to listen to me get up on my
> soapbox, then just skip the rest of this...
>
> "In the old days, Guido would Pronounce, and we'd all bite our tongues
> (although not necessarily each his own).  The less time Guido can make
> for Python, the more important becomes graceful capitulation."  Tim said
> this and it makes me wish for the old days.  People had *months* to
> comment on decorators and no one spoke up until something went into the
> language.  Procrastination is not a virtue when it comes to major
> language evolution discussions.  What was worse was when the emails
> started repeating themselves (which was pretty much from the get-go when
> this exploded).  Seemed like people decided to start talking without
> doing some research.  Granted the PEP was outdated and the wiki page was
> not up yet, but this stuff was covered in the Summaries before and you
> could have just Googled for the previous threads.
>
> Personally, if I was Guido, I would have said that the community had
> their chance to speak up and they just didn't take it.  But Guido is a
> nicer guy than that so people are getting a second chance with this.
> Personally this came off a great case of the tyranny of the majority in
> my eyes.  There is a reason why Python is a dictatorship.
>

"Well, then allow me to retort."

Up until PyCon in June, Guido was publicly leaning toward a C1-flavor of
decorator syntax.  Apparently, there was sufficient furor by some audience
members (not to quibble whether or not this group was in fact representative
of all Python users) that Guido dropped back from it.  Sometime in June,
@decorator seemed to drop from the sky - it was not even one of the top 2
that GvR had in his keynote presentation - and by late July, it was suddenly
to be found in the newly released 2.4a2.

I guess my sin of omission was in not following python-dev directly, but
instead relying on the natural checks and balances that have produced the
beautiful Python language thus far.  Despite the periodic reporting of
python-dev summaries (thank you! BTW), and the April and June summaries of
the decorator status, *not one* of these summaries announced the selection
of "@decorator" before it was checked in and released - making it a seeming
fait accompli.  Contrast with the announcement of 'Generator expressions are
in!' in your May summary, well in advance of the 2.4a release.

> At this point people should be hashing out which syntax alternative they
> want to present to Guido on comp.lang.python_.  No more talking on
> python-dev, no more syntax proposals.  The community should set a goal
> date (Sept. 1 seems good) and just choose a bloody alternative.  Then
> when Guido makes his choice people accept it or just go to another
> language.  No one had better voice their disappoint once Guido chooses
> his syntax or I will personally come beat you over with a stick for
> being a whiner.
>

Um, where have you been?  It seemed to me that, instead of continued
wallowing in a chaos of syntax discussions, that we collectively *were*
working on "just choosing a bloody alternative."  I guess we've not been
wholly successful, as there are still *two* popular contenders, but one is
leading the other by more than 2-to-1, and a consensus measure shows an even
greater level of, if not acceptance, at least tolerance.  c.l.py is a tough
herd of cats!  Michael Sparks and Robert Brewer have voted in a measure
beyond simply posting Usenet votes, and have completed the steps for one of
the contenders to be considered by Guido.  The absence of champions for the
other option may end up making the decision by default - too bad, actually.

> OK, that's out of my system.  I feel better now.
>

Well, good for you.  I also subscribe to a "no whining" philosophy, but I
don't think it is unexpected nor unreasonable that the rapid selection,
implementation, and release of "@decorator" took many by (unpleasant)
surprise.  And am I the only one who has trouble reconciling your tirade
with your encouragement to "take a stance" (in the emphasized section at
top)?

We can agree to disagree - I'll plead guilty to being a miserable lurker who
up until recently was happy to rely on the wisdom of strangers - but allow
me to take at least a little umbrage at your tirade.

-- Paul




From michele.simionato at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 10:43:23 2004
From: michele.simionato at gmail.com (Michele Simionato)
Date: 5 Aug 2004 07:43:23 -0700
Subject: Is this a case for metaclasses?
References: <411207dd$0$7323$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net>
Message-ID: <4edc17eb.0408050643.41f9040a@posting.google.com>

Hartmut Goebel <h.goebel at goebel-consult.de> wrote in message news:<411207dd$0$7323$9b4e6d93 at newsread2.arcor-online.net>...
> Hi,
> 
> I'm currently implementing a tool for auto-generating webforms from a 
> desription file. The output should become a php-script, an asp-script, 
> zope-formulator or such. Each if it may (or may not) have javascript 
> additions. The output format should be defined ar runtime (php, 
> php+javascrip, asp, asp+javascript, etc.).
> 
> Currently I have a fixed class hierarchy:
> 
>    generic    : implements generic html widgets (input, radiobuttons)
>    php        : "mixin" for adding php-specifi code to the widget,
>                 eg. getting values from HTTP_POST_VARS/_POST
>    javascript : adds javascript scripts, eg. error checking
> 
> Obviously this does not scale as soon as I add more mid-layers (asp, 
> psp, etc.).
> 
> For me this sounds like I could benefit from using metaclasses here. 
> Before I start implementing such a beast, I want to be shure, there will 
> be a benefit.
> 
> Any suggestions?

Metaclasses are essentially syntactic sugar. You can do more or less
everything without them. For instance you can use a poor man function
to
format your classes as you wish. Then, you have to apply the function
to the every subclass by hand. If you use a metaclass, subclasses are
automatically reformatted, instead. So, using a function means
a bit more typing but greater expliciteness. Metaclasses are okay
if you want to hide to your users the fact that something magic is 
going on.


                     Michele Simionato


From tor.iver.wilhelmsen at broadpark.no  Wed Aug  4 04:00:22 2004
From: tor.iver.wilhelmsen at broadpark.no (Tor Iver Wilhelmsen)
Date: 04 Aug 2004 10:00:22 +0200
Subject: Can somebody help me ?
References: <9f6a3388.0408031923.11cfa62d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <upt67xrhl.fsf@broadpark.no>

patrick.schaeffler at siemens.com (Patrick) writes:

> import win32com.client.dynamic 
> db1 = win32com.client.dynamic.Dispatch("Access.Application")

As an aside: This looks like a good candidate for import aliasing

import win32com.client.dynamic as com
db1 = com.Dispatch("Access.Application")

Unless you like to type a lot. :)


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 14:24:02 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:24:02 -0400
Subject: Newbie question about file input
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1745.1092675058.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1745.1092675058.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <hp6dnbuxhPReZr3cRVn-pw@powergate.ca>

Ben Last wrote:
>>Peter Hansen wrote:
>>>Small note: it would make your code more readable and thus
>>>easier to comment on if you followed convention and used four
>>>spaces for indentation.  Your volunteer tutors thank you! :-)
>
> Ah, now you're treading on holy war territory :)
> ben "Two Spaces McGraw" last

Perhaps, but it's inarguable that in the Python world, four
spaces is overwhelmingly the most widely followed convention,
not to mention the standard followed by the core library.

-Peter


From tim.peters at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 12:34:55 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 12:34:55 -0400
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
In-Reply-To: <smalsq5p.fsf@telus.net>
References: <mailman.1661.1092519005.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7x7js1i887.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<slrnchug4m.n0d.npat@gray.efault.net> <zn4w2y3g.fsf@telus.net>
	<972ec5bd.0408152037.c50bcee@posting.google.com>
	<d61q94e7.fsf@telus.net> <slrnci39ej.1h8.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<smalsq5p.fsf@telus.net>
Message-ID: <1f7befae040817093447023a6b@mail.gmail.com>

[Lenard Lindstrom]
> I do not consider using threads to implement coroutines a practical
> solution.

It depends on the app, but in general I agree.

> It was alluded to in a posting by Tim Peters giving his take on generators,
> coroutines and continuations. The case he mentioned was more than
> likely a demonstration or example than an actual production module.

Demo/threads/ in a Python source distribution contains thread-based
implementations of coroutines and generators.  They were certainly
just demos, and PEP 255 even mentions the latter as a concrete example
of why threads aren't a practical implementation technique for
generators.


From adurdin at gmail.com  Sat Aug 21 09:46:56 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 23:46:56 +1000
Subject: just ignore Guido's "rejections" [Re: Alternative
	decorator syntax decision]
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed204082102041dc3fa3c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <wRhVc.23879$Mt5.1140091@wagner.videotron.net>	<mailman.2014.1092990953.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nPlVc.23904$Mt5.1223926@wagner.videotron.net>	<2uadnbqpMuI1krvcRVn-sg@comcast.com>
	<mailman.2077.1093031462.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<s6adnbDz3dsMx7vcRVn-hQ@comcast.com>
	<e69d3ed204082102041dc3fa3c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a040821064633ab4894@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 19:04:28 +1000, Anthony Baxter
<anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> You're misinterpreting what I said - I said that "if you want a form
> he's rejected,
> you need _damn_ strong arguments to back it up". I was replying to someone
> saying that it's not necessary to pay attention to Guido's rejections of various
> forms, and pointing out that in fact you _do_ need to pay attention to them. If
> there's a community concensus for an already-rejected form, but no-one has
> bothered addressing the existing concerns, then it's something of a waste of
> time.

I'm not trying to inflame this discussion, but that doesn't appear to
tally with Guido's comments -- when discussing a community consensus
regarding list-after-def, he asked if there was a consensus that his
concerns with that syntax were incorrect, which suggests that he'd
reconsider his concerns (though that may not change them).
Additionally, two people (myself one) addressed his concerns
point-by-point on python-dev, and Guido didn't respond, except to say
that he doesn't want a hundred people arguing point-by point.
>From all this and his other comments, I gather that Guido wants a
community consensus on one syntax (with an implementation); he'll look
at it (even if he previously rejected it), and the current
@-decorators, and make a final decision on which will be kept


From jess.austin at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 15:45:06 2004
From: jess.austin at gmail.com (Jess Austin)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 12:45:06 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<w0iVc.23881$Mt5.1145911@wagner.videotron.net>
Message-ID: <b8ad139e.0408241145.29f26c37@posting.google.com>

hi,

I vote:

J2, J2, J2

and thus the split-vote mechanism is completely defeated.  I don't
think you can enforce 2nd-choice voting on a newsgroup.  I find suite
expansion to be far more pythonic than anything else we've come up
with.

Just to be clear, the following is J2:

Nicolas Fleury <nid_oizo at yahoo.com_removethe_> wrote in message news:<w0iVc.23881$Mt5.1145911 at wagner.videotron.net>...
> Proposal 1:
> 
> decorate: staticmethod
> def foo(a, b):
>      ...
> 
> decorate:
>      accepts(int,int)
>      returns(float)
> def bar(low, high):
>      ...
> 
> other possible keywords: predef, from, as, with

while this is E4, which I think has some traits that Guido has already
vetoed in http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047279.html:

> Proposal 2:
> 
> def foo(a,b):
>      using staticmethod
>      ...
> 
> def bar(low, high):
>      using accepts(int, int)
>      using returns(float)
> 
> other possible keywords: decorate, transform, with, postdef, as

[snip]

> What keywords would you prefer?  Do you see any that I have not listed?

I like "decorate" much better than "transform", because "transform"
encompasses more than the specific concept of decoration.  If there is
a concern that decoration is a larger concept than what is proposed in
PEP 318, then I would consider some other, more specific verb.

Verb it must be, though, as opposed to something adverbial or
prepositional or even gerundy.  It seems to have been made quite clear
that decoration is a separate action from definition.  If we use a
word that isn't another transitive verb, that word will attach itself
to "def" and the syntax will obscur the semantics.

> Do you think there's an alternative that I should have listed, even 
> considering what have been ruled out by Guido?

Solutions that are already or obviously will be rejected by Guido
contribute to noise levels.  b-)


From ville at spammers.com  Fri Aug 20 11:22:04 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 18:22:04 +0300
Subject: voting method flawed? [Re: Alternative decorator syntax
	decision]
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<MO-dnZ5bRv1ljLvcRVn-jQ@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <du7ekm1j0mb.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Doug" == Doug Holton <insert at spam.here> writes:

    Doug> I've heard of different voting methods like ranking your top
    Doug> choices, but I've never heard of this one.  It appears that
    Doug> if someone is open minded about more than one option, their
    Doug> opinion counts *less* that someone who is doggedly
    Doug> determined about one particular syntax.  They get three
    Doug> votes while you get one.  That doesn't seem fair or the best
    Doug> way to determine a community favorite.

I think it's less about finding a community favourite than just
picking out one or two alternative approaches for Guido's
consideration. The idea is to reduce the number of syntaxes to shoot
down :-).

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Tue Aug 17 12:19:50 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 12:19:50 -0400
Subject: Problem with floating point precision
References: <ec6dce8b.0408170538.1f0211d2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <10i4c1lrvd3rm9b@news.supernews.com>

"j_mckitrick" <j_mckitrick at bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:ec6dce8b.0408170538.1f0211d2 at posting.google.com...
> I checked the docs, but found nothing about floating point issues.
>
> I am working on an app that deals with currency values, and only does
> addition and subtraction (no division).  But I am starting to see
> values that should be the same failing a compare!  What is the
> workaround or correct way to compare 2 floats?  It worked fine for
> months, then suddenly starting acting odd.  I might have upgraded
> Python somewhere in between, I can't recall.

The basic issue here is that you shouldn't be using floats
for currency. Granted, lots of people do, but it will eventually
run into exactly the problem you're describing.

The reason is that currency is best handled by some form of
arithmetic that works with discrete quantities, while floats are
intended to be used with continuous quantities (like scientific
and engineering measurements).

There's a floating decimal package in 2.4 that is intended
to eventually (in 2.5 maybe?) be the base of a currency
package. However, that doesn't help today.

What I'd do is create a currency class that uses plain
old, boring ints as the base, with the necessary decimal
point handling present behind the scene.

John Roth


>
> jonathon




From cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca  Sat Aug 14 16:38:33 2004
From: cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca (David M. Cooke)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:38:33 -0400
Subject: Sublassing in C
References: <11wahcesttqxl.dlg@news.kaarsemaker.net>
Message-ID: <qnk8ychv4ja.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>

At some point, Dennis Kaarsemaker <spamtrap at kaarsemaker.net> wrote:

> I'm trying to create a subclass of Exception in C, but  cant figure out
> what to use as tp_base in the PyTypeObject struct. Can anybody give me
> directions on where to look or maybe even an answer?

Have a look at Python/exceptions.c in the Python source; that's where
all the subclasses of Exception (IndexError, etc.) are created.

-- 
|>|\/|<
/--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
|David M. Cooke
|cookedm(at)physics(dot)mcmaster(dot)ca


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 17:33:59 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:33:59 -0400
Subject: Stopping a socket.accept() method
In-Reply-To: <2ocfkjF8v1qeU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <2o9mlbF8ff8rU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<huCdnQEib_bV2L3cRVn-pQ@powergate.ca>
	<2ocfkjF8v1qeU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <neidnflzYqbVtbzcRVn-rg@powergate.ca>

Tobias Pfeiffer wrote:

> On 16 Aug 2004, Peter Hansen wrote:
>>Tobias Pfeiffer wrote:
>>
>>2. You can use a non-blocking socket and select(), which
>>will allow a periodic wakeup to check a flag that is set
>>by whatever mechanism you want to tell the prog to stop.
> 
> And how exactly do you propose to code this "non-blocking socket"? I've 
> no idea how to realize that? Could you maybe give me a little example of 
> how to work with socket.accept() and select()?

Sure, but did you look for yourself?  I'm pretty sure Google
would turn up some good stuff for you if you tried with
"Python non-blocking socket accept select" or some subset
of that.  If you look but can't find I'd be happy to help
point you even more specifically in the right direction.
(I suspect checking the documentation for the "select" module
would help too.)

-Peter


From yaipa at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 30 22:24:33 2004
From: yaipa at yahoo.com (yaipa h.)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 19:24:33 -0700
Subject: [IronPython] Jim Hugunin's web log.
References: <mailman.2627.1093893089.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<10j7bfr6o0nf7af@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <6e07b825.0408301824.60c3426b@posting.google.com>

flacco <flacco002 at spambadTwilight-systems.com> wrote in message news:<10j7bfr6o0nf7af at corp.supernews.com>...
> David Wilson wrote:
> > Anti-trust conspiracy theories aside, if Microsoft adopts Python as a 
> > part of it's development toolset, the repercussions for Windows RAD and 
> > scripting are massive, not to mention the effects it would have on the 
> > average Python developer's wages and availability of work.
> 
> why in the world would we want to put aside the concerns about microsoft 
> that we have, which you have "misnomered" under the umbrella term 
> "anti-trust conspiracy theories"?
> 
> 
> > This is perhaps the first time where I have been glad to see Microsoft 
> > hijack something. Even if IronPython becomes a commercial offering, I'm 
> > still sold.
>  [...]
> > My apologies for the poor terminology, this really isn't my department. 
> > Just got a feeling. :)
> 
> are you in advertising by any chance?

Hey, if Python can reuse the .net GUI builder... Cool.  
Give something, get something back.  So it goes...

Cheers,

  --Al


From rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm  Thu Aug 26 12:04:11 2004
From: rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm (Roel Schroeven)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:04:11 GMT
Subject: Why return None?
In-Reply-To: <slrncis152.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
	<dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
	<aN5Xc.205341$M95.157379@pd7tw1no>
	<1gj4fb5.607xsc51izh8N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xllg25lkt.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj4u3a.12ttba9fynd6uN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncis152.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
Message-ID: <%RnXc.226260$TH3.11043957@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

Antoon Pardon wrote:

>>If somelist.sort() returned the list there could not possibly be one
>>obvious way to do it, since both
>>
>>print somelist.sort()
>>
>>and
>>
>>somelist.sort()
>>print somelist
> 
> 
> Then python has already deviated from the one obvious way to do it.
> I can do:
> 
>   a = a + b   vs    a += b.
> 
> or
> 
>   a = b + c   vs     a = ''.join(b,c)

a = ''.join((b,c))

join doesn't join all it's arguments; it joins all elements from it's 
one argument, which should be a sequence. That's a detail though.

> 
> The difference between
> 
>   print somelist.sort()
> 
> and
> 
>   somelist.sort()
>   print somelist
> 
> 
> is IMO of the same order as the difference between
> 
> 
>   print a + b
> 
> and
> 
>   r = a + b
>   print r

Not IMO.

print somelist.sort()

has a side-effect (somelist is sorted), which is not clearly visible if 
used that way.

a + b doesn't have any side-effects.
IMO, 'print somelist.sort()' is more equivalent to 'print a += b', which 
also doesn't work (fortunately).

-- 
"Codito ergo sum"
Roel Schroeven


From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Mon Aug 30 16:49:52 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 22:49:52 +0200
Subject: xml.dom.minidom - documentElement vs. childNodes
References: <mailman.2621.1093888223.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ch03ta$sq1$01$1@news.t-online.com>

Skip Montanaro wrote:

> I'm getting somewhat painfully acquainted with xml.dom.minidom.  What is
> the relationship between its documentElement attribute and its childNodes
> list?
> I thought XML documents consisted of a single, possibly compound, node. 
> Why is a list of childNodes needed?

Maybe for reasons of orthogonality? In java, the document class implements
the node interface also. So it seems as if dom treats documents as special
cases of nodes. 

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From zathras at thwackety.com  Sun Aug 22 06:05:35 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:05:35 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [PATCH] RE: J2 decorator grammar
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed204082123245166d1e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408221104090.22879-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004, Anthony Baxter wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 01:41:58 +0100 (BST), Michael Sparks wrote
> > The patch can be found here:
> >    * http://thwackety.com/decorator_syntax_J2.patch
>
> Good to see. There's a few more bits than this that need to be
> done, though - see http://www.python.org/sf/979728 for the original
> @decorator patch, this should show you what else needs to be
> changed.

Many thanks for the pointer. I'll try and make sure I cover all the bases,
but I suspect I'll miss something, but I'll try not to :)

Regards,


Michael.



From skip at pobox.com  Wed Aug 18 22:58:52 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 21:58:52 -0500
Subject: get last two in a length of unknown length?
In-Reply-To: <cg1494$lvr$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>
References: <cg1494$lvr$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <16676.5996.552462.843044@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    MC> I have a list of varying length. Would someone know the way to get
    MC> the last two values for this? 

mylist[-2:]

Skip


From nospam at example.com  Thu Aug 26 04:27:08 2004
From: nospam at example.com (Derek Fountain)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:27:08 +0800
Subject: Converting hex string to an integer
Message-ID: <412d9e18$0$22821$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>

Given the character string "0x00A1B2C3" arriving at sys.argv[1] how do I 
convert that to an integer which I can do some math on?


From marco at reimeika.ca  Thu Aug  5 15:32:09 2004
From: marco at reimeika.ca (marco)
Date: 05 Aug 2004 15:32:09 -0400
Subject: advice for perl expert wanting to learn python
References: <slrncguga2.fcp.mordor@fly.srk.fer.hr>
Message-ID: <yibbrhpqt3a.fsf@coxeter.math.toronto.edu>

Zeljko Vrba <mo.dor at fly.srk.fer.hr> writes:


> What's the easiest way of learning python knowing perl? Is there somewhere
> a 'how-to' cookbook with parallel examples of frequent idioms in perl and
> python?

There's this one:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?P6C226BF8

but it's a bit dated (probably good for simple stuff, though)...

Cheers,

--
marco at reimeika.ca
Gunnm: Broken Angel                      http://amv.reimeika.ca
http://reimeika.ca/                      http://photo.reimeika.ca


From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Aug 17 12:24:35 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (simo)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 09:24:35 -0700
Subject: Newbie 1st program
References: <f9d01b73.0408161010.1ba5e9e4@posting.google.com>
	<hp6dnbqxhPStYL3cRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<278de0e.0408161537.61ab1301@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <30260531.0408170824.3fd74108@posting.google.com>

luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss) wrote:

> Just a question: How did you make the installer package?

It's the old favourite py2exe plus InnoSetup.

Couple of hints:

1. make the image a GIF instead of BMP, it's better for portability
and size

2. is it platform-specific, or have you just not been able to test on
UNIX? you don't need the .pyw

3. to put the .ico into the .exe and get the WinXP look'n'feel, you
can use this as your setup.py for py2exe:


from distutils.core import setup
import py2exe

manifest = """
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="yes"?>
<assembly xmlns="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:asm.v1"
manifestVersion="1.0">
<assemblyIdentity
    version="0.64.1.0"
    processorArchitecture="x86"
    name="Controls"
    type="win32"
/>
<description>GobbleWin</description>
<dependency>
    <dependentAssembly>
        <assemblyIdentity
            type="win32"
            name="Microsoft.Windows.Common-Controls"
            version="6.0.0.0"
            processorArchitecture="X86"
            publicKeyToken="6595b64144ccf1df"
            language="*"
        />
    </dependentAssembly>
</dependency>
</assembly>
"""

setup(
    windows = [
        {
            "script": "Gobblewx.py",
            "icon_resources": [(1, "Gobble.ico")],
            "other_resources": [(24,1,manifest)]
        }
    ],
)


From b.niemann at betternet.de  Mon Aug 16 08:10:29 2004
From: b.niemann at betternet.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:10:29 +0200
Subject: sys.stdin.read() replacement
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1728.1092656302.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1728.1092656302.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cfq822$h9j$1@online.de>

not sure, if importing readline really gets the desired result (if I 
understand the initial question correctly)

suppose the following input:
   > this is ym first line
   > and another line
   (oops there's a typo in the first line, user hits cursor up two 
times, and corrects it)
   > this is my first line
   ...

what the program will then reads is:
   "this is ym first line"
   "and another line"
   "this is my first line"
   ...
with no chance to see that the third line is supposed to replace line one.
Or is readline actually more powerful than I remember?


> import readline will work on Windows:
> a) if you're running the cygwin python, inside cygwin
> b) if you've installed a readline module; there are at least two available.
> Excuse me for the self-referential answer, but about half and hour before I
> read this, I wrote a blog entry all about readline modules, with links to
> and comments about the Windows ones.  The permalink is
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/benlast/16766.html or it's the most recent
> entry at http://www.livejournal.com/users/benlast/
> 
> Karin: if you do import a readline, you can then use sys.stdin.readline() to
> read a line of input, and you should get some sort of history functionality
> (up-arrow, for example, will recall a previous line).
> 
> regards
> b
> 
> 
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org
>>[mailto:python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org]On Behalf Of
>>P at draigBrady.com
>>Sent: 16 August 2004 11:52
>>To: python-list at python.org
>>Subject: Re: sys.stdin.read() replacement
>>
>>
>>Karin Lagesen wrote:
>>
>>>I am writing a small write-logfile script for use on the
>>
>>terminal. I have here
>>
>>>a section where the user should be able to type in several
>>
>>lines. I have solved
>>
>>>it so far by using sys.stdin.read(), which makes it possible to
>>
>>type in several
>>
>>>lines (separated by enter) and then terminate the session by
>>
>>typing ^D. This is
>>
>>>all very good. However, with this it is only possible to edit
>>
>>the line you are
>>
>>>in. If you spot an error further up in your text, you cannot
>>
>>get at it. Do any
>>
>>>of you know of a way I can do this?
>>
>>
>>import readline
>>
>>(I don't know if it works on windos)
>>
>>P?draig.
>>--
>>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 
> 


From me at privacy.net  Wed Aug 25 20:27:05 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Richard Hanson)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:27:05 -0700
Subject: MSI Installer Problem: can't install 2.4a2 on new install of
	Win2kSP2
References: <vnipi0ldsgchqqiti1q19qtd5d70ju17p0@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <14bqi0tl2bhdh2hi5n02htu3c4id899ngq@4ax.com>

Following up:

After a couple of tries this afternoon, I managed to DL Python 2.3.4
and installed it -- Idle ran and seemed to be normal. 

(I thought I would do a quick "test" before posting so I did a "from
test import testall" and got pages and pages of output from 2.3.4 --
about 257kB's worth. <wink>)

Anyway, Python 2.4a2 *still* does not install on my Fujitsu LifeBook
P1120 with Win2kSP2 -- as described in my original post.

So, still stumped.

hard-to-count-the-ways-without-Decimal'ly y'rs,
Richard

-- 
email works if unmunged:
sick<PERI0D>ole<P0INT>fart<PIE_DEC0_SYNTAX>newsguy<MARK>com


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Thu Aug 26 10:24:24 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:24:24 GMT
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<HvadnUsZ7IAwc7DcRVn-sQ@megapath.net>
Message-ID: <ufsri01jsj8qnk468mrohbhivaq2fsaoab@4ax.com>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 07:07:43 -0700, "R Baumann" <rynt at 9yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
>"Xah Lee" <xah at xahlee.org> wrote in message
>news:7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a at posting.google.com...
>> Larry Wall and Cults
>> (Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
>> 200012
>>
><BIG SNIP>
>
>In this context --- This is the STUPIDEST thing I've ever heard.  What a
>maroon!  What a Trollup!
>

His plane curve work is not far from some of my own obsessions. I knew
of and admired his site.

Didn't know he had other interests as well ;)

Maybe an extreme me.

All obsessions in moderation, is my motto.


Art

>RB
>



From skip at pobox.com  Mon Aug 30 13:49:59 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 12:49:59 -0500
Subject: xml.dom.minidom - documentElement vs. childNodes
Message-ID: <16691.26823.940531.90499@montanaro.dyndns.org>

I'm getting somewhat painfully acquainted with xml.dom.minidom.  What is the
relationship between its documentElement attribute and its childNodes list?
I thought XML documents consisted of a single, possibly compound, node.  Why
is a list of childNodes needed?

Thx,

Skip


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Fri Aug  6 17:06:53 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 17:06:53 -0400
Subject: PEP 263 status check
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com> <4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de>
	<10h5hgvpafm8a64@news.supernews.com> <41133C76.8040302@v.loewis.de>
	<10h6rklt3fa1690@news.supernews.com> <41137799.70808@v.loewis.de>
	<10h724r20kkeqb2@news.supernews.com> <4113D8DF.8080106@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <10h7tb8nn53ajbb@news.supernews.com>


"Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote in message
news:4113D8DF.8080106 at v.loewis.de...
> John Roth wrote:
> >>What would you expect instead? Do you think your expectation
> >>is implementable?
> >
> >
> > I'd expect that the compiler would reject anything that
> > wasn't either in the 7-bit ascii subset, or else defined
> > with a hex escape.
>
> Are we still talking about PEP 263 here? If the entire source
> code has to be in the 7-bit ASCII subset, then what is the point
> of encoding declarations?

Martin, I think you misinterpreted what I said at the
beginning. I'm only, and I need to repeat this, ONLY
dealing with the case where the encoding declaration
specifically says that the script is in UTF-8. No other
case.

I'm going to deal with your response point by point,
but I don't think most of this is really relevant. Your
response only makes sense if you missed the point that
I was talking about scripts that explicitly declared their
encoding to be UTF-8, and no other scripts in no
other circumstances.

I didn't mean the entire source was in 7-bit ascii. What
I meant was that if the encoding was utf-8 then the source
for 8-bit string literals must be in 7-bit ascii. Nothing more.

> If you were suggesting that anything except Unicode literals
> should be in the 7-bit ASCII subset, then this is still
> unacceptable: Comments should also be allowed to contain non-ASCII
> characters, don't you agree?

Of course.

> If you think that only Unicode literals and comments should be
> allowed to contain non-ASCII, I disagree: At some point, I'd
> like to propose support for non-ASCII in identifiers. This would
> allow people to make identifiers that represent words from their
> native language, which is helpful for people who don't speak
> English well.

L:ikewise. I never thought otherwise; in fact I'd like to expand
the availible operators to include the set operators as well as
the logical operators and the "real" division operator (the one
you learned in grade school - the dash with a dot above and
below the line.)

> If you think that only Unicod literals, comments, and identifiers
> should be allowed non-ASCII: perhaps, but this is out of scope
> of PEP 263, which *only* introduces encoding declarations,
> and explains what they mean for all current constructs.
>
> > The reason for this is simply that wanting to put characters
> > outside of the 7-bit ascii subset into a byte character string
> > isn't portable.
>
> Define "is portable". With an encoding declaration, I can move
> the source code from one machine to another, open it in an editor,
> and have it display correctly. This was not portable without
> encoding declarations (likewise for comments); with PEP 263,
> such source code became portable.

> Also, the run-time behaviour is fully predictable (which it
> even was without PEP 263): At run-time, the string will have
> exactly the same bytes that it does in the .py file. This
> is fully portable.

It's predictable, but as far as I'm concerned, that's
not only useless behavior, it's counterproductive
behavior. I find it difficult to imagine any case
where the benefit of having normal character
literals accidentally contain utf-8 multi-byte
characters outweighs the pain of having it happen
accidentally, and then figuring out why your program
is giving you wierd behavior.

I would grant that there are cases where you
might want this behavior. I am pretty sure they
are in the distinct minority.


> > It just pushes the need for a character set
> > (encoding) declaration down one level of recursion.
>
> It depends on the program. E.g. if the program was to generate
> HTML files with an explicit HTTP-Equiv charset=iso-8859-1,
> then the resulting program is absolutely, 100% portable.

It's portable, but that's not the normal case. See above.

> For messages directly output to a terminal, portability
> might not be important.

Portabiliity is less of an issue for me than the likelihood
of making a mistake in coding a literal and then having
to debug unexpected behavior when one byte no longer
equals one character.


> > There's already a way of doing this: use a unicode string,
> > so it's not like we need two ways of doing it.
>
> Using a Unicode string might not work, because a library might
> crash when confronted with a Unicode string. You are proposing
> to break existing applications for no good reason, and with
> no simple fix.

There's no reason why you have to have a utf-8
encoding declaration. If you want your source to
be utf-8, you need to accept the consequences.
I fully expect Python to support the usual mixture
of encodings until 3.0 at least. At that point, everything
gets to be rewritten anyway.

> > Now I will grant you that there is a need for representing
> > the utf-8 encoding in a character string, but do we need
> > to support that in the source text when it's much more
> > likely that it's a programming mistake?
>
> But it isn't! People do put KOI-8R into source code, into
> string literals, and it works perfectly fine for them. There
> is no reason to arbitrarily break their code.
>
> > As far as implementation goes, it should have been done
> > at the beginning. Prior to 2.3, there was no way of writing
> > a program using the utf-8 encoding (I think - I might be
> > wrong on that)
>
> You are wrong. You were always able to put UTF-8 into byte
> strings, even at a time where UTF-8 was not yet an RFC
> (say, in Python 1.1).

Were you able to write your entire program in UTF-8?
I think not.

>
> > so there were no programs out there that
> > put non-ascii subset characters into byte strings.
>
> That is just not true. If it were true, there would be no
> need to introduce a grace period in the PEP. However,
> *many* scripts in the world use non-ASCII in string literals;
> it was always possible (although the documentation was
> wishy-washy on what it actually meant).
>
> > Today it's one more forward migration hurdle to jump over.
> > I don't think it's a particularly large one, but I don't have
> > any real world data at hand.
>
> Trust me: the outcry for banning non-ASCII from string literals
> would be, by far, louder than the one for a proposed syntax
> on decorators. That would break many production systems, CGI
> scripts would suddenly stop working, GUIs would crash, etc.

.



>
> Regards,
> Martin




From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Mon Aug 23 21:54:57 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 01:54:57 GMT
Subject: newbie: confused with example in Learning Python 2nd
	Edition:cananyone give a hint
References: <mailman.2254.1093312305.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <RdxWc.15249$v86.14245@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"Robert Brewer" <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote in message
news:mailman.2254.1093312305.5135.python-list at python.org...
Porky Pig Jr wrote:
<snip>

Hint: Python doesn't have variables like other languages do. The line:

    self._data = list(data)

does not make a copy of "data". Instead, it binds a new name
(self._data) to the same object which the name "data" refers to.


FuManChu
======================

Er?  I thought list(data) called the list constructor to create a copy of
data, and bind the new list to self._data.  That's why push and pop calls
update the internal _data list without changing the original list.

-- Paul




From theller at python.net  Tue Aug 24 14:24:00 2004
From: theller at python.net (Thomas Heller)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:24:00 +0200
Subject: Building basic dialog in Windows?
References: <bp0ni09fofpahse8uoa4l3hdmq5lmi61rr@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <y8k4v1hb.fsf@python.net>

Fred <nobody at nowhere.com> writes:

> Hi,
>
> 	I'd like to turn a command-line script into a Windows GUI app
> using the native widgets so as to reduce the size of the binary (ie.
> no QT, wxWidgets, et al.)
>
> I came up with the following list of tools to access the Win32 API:
>
> - PythonWin (MFC) http://www.python.org/windows/pythonwin/
> - ctypes http://starship.python.net/crew/theller/ctypes/
> - EasyDialogs for Windows
> http://www.averdevelopment.com/python/EasyDialogs.html
> - DynWin http://www.nightmare.com/~rushing/dynwin/
> - sdk32 - Partial Python wrap of the Win32 Platform SDK
> http://www.object-craft.com.au/projects/sdk32/

You've missed venster http://venster.sf.net/

>
> Does someone have a sample on how to display an OK/Cancel dialog with
> a label + progress bar? Should I look at other tools?

I think pywin32 has what you need, the makepy utility displays such a
progress dialog when creating python wrappers for large typelibraries.

Thomas


From esj at harvee.org  Fri Aug 20 10:58:20 2004
From: esj at harvee.org (Eric S. Johansson)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:58:20 -0400
Subject: forking smtpd
Message-ID: <cg53jt$4ur$1@sea.gmane.org>

I was working on a filter for postfix and instead of using the "fork a 
new python process on every message" route, I decided to use the SMTP 
interface instead and try forking after having started the Python process.

obviously, I needed some way to receive and processed SMTP. smtpd.py 
works OK if you are willing to use single threaded one at a time 
filtering.  Because filtering takes significant amounts of time, I 
decided to expand smtpd to support a forking server.

I make no claims to the correctness or suitability of these 
modifications or even that I understood wtf was going on with 
asyncore/chat.  it will also be interesting to see what improvements 
others have to suggest. But here's what I found:

it was relatively easy to create a subclass (forkSMTPServer) and inside 
of the accept handler, I was able to fork off the child process and 
release the connection.  I suspect that I haven't released the listen 
socket properly but I will look into that.

I also copied the asyncore polling loop into SMTPServer and modified it 
to support forking and exit on the same signal as the rest of asyncore.

the last change I added was a close method to SMTPChannel and 
process_close method SMTPServer.  This is so one can detect when a 
channel has closed and do something about it such as ending a child process.

so, in the end a forking smtp receiver looks like:

class filter(smtpd.forkSMTPServer):

     def process_message(self, peer, mailfrom, rcpttos, data):

         sleep(5)
         log("postfix peer %s %s"%(peer))
         log("postfix mail from %s"%(mailfrom))
         log("postfix rcpt to %s"%(rcpttos))
         #<do something with message here>
         print "processing",self.parent_ID



f = filter2(("localhost",40025))
try:

     #asyncore.loop(10)
     f.loop(10)
     print "exit from loop"
except KeyboardInterrupt:
     pass
except SystemExit:
     pass

except Exception, error:
     print str(error)
     etype, value, tb = sys.exc_info()
     exception_strings = traceback.format_exception(etype, value, tb)
     for i in exception_strings:
         print(i, 1)



line wrapped patches below:
270,274d269
<     def close(self):
<         print "outside close"
<         asynchat.async_chat.close(self)
<         self.__server.process_close()
<
321,385d315
<     def process_close (self):
<         """override this abstract method to handle the close of SMTP 
channel. """
<         pass
<
<     def loop (self, timeout=30.0, use_poll=0, map=None):
<         global f
<         if map is None:
<             map=asyncore.socket_map
<
<         if use_poll:
<             if hasattr (select, 'poll'):
<                 poll_fun = asyncore.poll3
<             else:
<                 poll_fun = asyncore.poll2
<         else:
<             poll_fun = asyncore.poll
<
<         while map:
<             try:
<                 status = os.waitpid(-1,os.WNOHANG)
<                 print "timeout loop %s %s"% (self.parent_ID, str(status))
<             except OSError, error:
<                 if error[0] == 10:
<                     status = (0,0)
<                 else:
<                     print self.parent_ID, error
<
<             if status[0] == 0:
<                 try:
<                     poll_fun (timeout, map)
<                 except asyncore.ExitNow:
<                     return
<
<
< class forkSMTPServer(SMTPServer):
<
<     def __init__(self, address):
<
<         self.parent_ID = None
<         SMTPServer.__init__(self, address,(0,0))
<         self.mychannel = None
<
<     def handle_accept(self):
<         conn, addr = self.accept()
<         self.parent_ID = os.fork()
<         if not self.parent_ID:
<             print >> DEBUGSTREAM, 'Incoming connection from %s' % 
repr(addr)
<             self.mychannel = SMTPChannel(self, conn, addr)
<         else:
<             # close off socket in parent and fake lack of connection
<             conn.close()
<             self.connected = 0
<             print "child fork ID", self.parent_ID
<
<     def process_close(self):
<
<         print "process my very own close "
<
<         # if we are a child process, we are done so exit
<         if not self.parent_ID:
<             print "exit stage left %s"% (self.parent_ID)
<             raise asyncore.ExitNow
<
<
<

-- 
Speech recognition in use.  It makes mistakes, I correct most



From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 14:37:44 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:37:44 +0200
Subject: Class Friends
References: <20040827081556.657c3fac.a@c.d>
	<pan.2004.08.27.12.55.20.844417@jerf.org>
	<mailman.2537.1093626552.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1gj72ft.z5skuq14uaiihN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
   ...
> I've considered a jihad to try and get uses of the double-under
> mangling removed from the standard library. Maybe once 2.4 is out I'll
> take this on.

Count on my support on this: I consider it "something that looked like
it would be a good idea at the time" (to me, too -- I'm not prescient
either;-) but didn't really work as well as hoped.


Alex


From robin at alldunn.com  Mon Aug 30 14:11:27 2004
From: robin at alldunn.com (Robin Dunn)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 11:11:27 -0700
Subject: ANNOUNCE: wxPython 2.5.2.8
Message-ID: <41336DCF.60503@alldunn.com>

Announcing
----------

I'm pleased to announce the 2.5.2.8 release of wxPython, now available
for download at http://wxpython.org/download.php or
https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=10718&package_id=10559&release_id=263903


What is wxPython?
-----------------

wxPython is a GUI toolkit for the Python programming language. It
allows Python programmers to create programs with a robust, highly
functional graphical user interface, simply and easily. It is
implemented as a Python extension module that wraps the popular
wxWidgets cross platform GUI library, which is written in C++.

wxPython is a cross-platform toolkit. This means that the same program
will usually run on multiple platforms without modifications.
Currently supported platforms are 32-bit Microsoft Windows, most Linux
or other Unix-like systems using GTK or GTK2, and Apple Macintosh OS
X.


Changes in 2.5.2.8
------------------

This is predominantly a bug-fix release.  Changes include:

   * Fixed fatal error due to improper wrapping of wx.FSFile.

   * Fixed return type of EditableListBox.GetListCtrl

   * Give generic tree and list controls a DoGetBestSize so they play
     nicer with sizers when there is no minimal size.

   * Some tweaks in the demo and samples to correct layout, some
     flicker problems, and namespace use.

   * Add wx.Image.ConvertAlphaToMask

   * Minor corrections in wx.lib.dialogs

   * wx.FileHistory constructor now accepts the documented 2nd
     parameter.

   * Corrections for exceptions in the new ogl

   * Fixed XRCed to not use reparenting of windows to implement caching
     of property panels, since Reparent on wxMac is not implemented.

   * Add support for wxTAB_TRAVERSAL to the XRC handler for
     wxScrolledWindow.

   * Add support for all wxListBox styles to the XRC handler for
     wxCheckListBox.

   * Fix for wx.Listbook.DeleteAllPages to really delete everything.

   * wxGTK2 now supports alpha blended bitmap drawing

   * Made wx.grid.Grid play nicer with sizers.

   * etc.



-- 
Robin Dunn
Software Craftsman
http://wxPython.org  Java give you jitters?  Relax with wxPython!



From SBrunning at trisystems.co.uk  Tue Aug 17 12:03:32 2004
From: SBrunning at trisystems.co.uk (SBrunning at trisystems.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 17:03:32 +0100
Subject: Problem with floating point precision
Message-ID: <31575A892FF6D1118F5800600846864D01AE2992@intrepid>

> From: j_mckitrick at bigfoot.com [mailto:j_mckitrick at bigfoot.com]
> 
> I checked the docs, but found nothing about floating point issues.
> 
> I am working on an app that deals with currency values, and only does
> addition and subtraction (no division).  But I am starting to see
> values that should be the same failing a compare!  What is the
> workaround or correct way to compare 2 floats?  It worked fine for
> months, then suddenly starting acting odd.  I might have upgraded
> Python somewhere in between, I can't recall.

http://www.brunningonline.net/simon/blog/archives/000710.html

;-)

Cheers,
Simon B.
simon at brunningonline.net
http://www.brunningonline.net/simon/blog/ 




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copying, distribution, or any action taken or omitted to be taken in
reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. TriSystems Ltd. cannot
accept liability for statements made which are clearly the senders own.


From narshe at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 14:57:30 2004
From: narshe at gmail.com (Josh Close)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:57:30 -0500
Subject: ConfigParser options spanning more than one line
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.16.18.31.03.490175@hotmail.com>
References: <mailman.1741.1092674038.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<pan.2004.08.16.18.31.03.490175@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4a0cafe2040816115718932a7d@mail.gmail.com>

That works, I guess I'll just have to remove the \n from the variable then.

-Josh

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:31:03 -0500, Paramjit Oberoi
<p_s_oberoi at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm using ConfigParser and I can't seem to get a config option to span
> > more than one line.
> 
> >>> from ConfigParser import ConfigParser
> >>> from StringIO import StringIO
> >>> s = StringIO("[a]\n"
> ....              "b = 123\n"
> ....              " 456")
> >>> c=ConfigParser()
> >>> c.readfp(s)
> >>> c.get('a','b')
> '123\n456'
> 
> In other words, any line with a leading whitespace is considered a
> continuation line, and the leading whitespace is stripped from the value
> (but the carriage return is left in).
> 
> HTH,
> -param
> 
> 
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Aug 27 13:56:13 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (Simon John)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 10:56:13 -0700
Subject: Mysql in Python?
In-Reply-To: <7xsma9gfpr.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <cgnsjt$mod@odak26.prod.google.com>

Paul Rubin wrote:

> > Using PHP native database functions is a very bad idea. All
experencied
> > programmers use more abstract db wrappers like ADOdb
> > (http://adodb.sourceforge.net/).

> Interesting.  Every PHP app I've ever seen uses the native functions,
> but I haven't looked at many fancy ones.

Yeah, same here, I've always just used the Oracle or MySQL native
functionality, and wouldn't call myself unexperienced! I've just never
had the need for a database abstraction layer (it's always been
clear-cut what database I will use, and stick with).

> > There is no PHP standard templating system. PHP itself is a
template
> > framework!

> I'm not sure what the distinction is supposed to be?

PHP4 has it's own templating system (allowing repeatable blocks etc)
things like Nuke are more advanced, like a CMS. I prefer the more basic
functionality that I can control better myself, rather than having to
work to a spec enforced by third-party software.

And the ADOdb page says that to use it with MySQL, you have to install
the mysql-python (MySQLdb) module, so doesn't really help here, as we
haven't even got that far!



From loic-dev at gmx.net  Tue Aug 31 00:30:08 2004
From: loic-dev at gmx.net (Loic Domaigne)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 06:30:08 +0200
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
In-Reply-To: <87wtzgmd4p.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4PGdnfsOfdDPi63cRVn-tA@speakeasy.net>
	<slrncj1745.t5q.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<41337FC9.8070902@hotmail.com>
	<87wtzgmd4p.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>
Message-ID: <2pid4pFl4d08U1@uni-berlin.de>

>>Windows (MS) is not 'Unixism'?
> 
> 
> It's VMS'ism !

Without all the security aspects, of course...

Loic.


From flupke at nonexistingdomain.com  Thu Aug 19 08:46:59 2004
From: flupke at nonexistingdomain.com (flupke)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:46:59 GMT
Subject: timer problem
Message-ID: <7j1Vc.218972$p67.10887223@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

I have a timer in a program but the function it is supposed
to call, is only executed once.
To simplify searching what i have done wrong, i've made a small
test app
================================
import threading

def command():
     print "TIMER CALLED"

t = threading.Timer(2, command )
t.start()
s = raw_input()
t.cancel()
================================
Now, when i run it, it only prints TIMER CALLED once instead
of every 2 seconds.
What am i doing wrong? (Python 2.3.4 on Win2000)

Thanks,
Benedict


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 04:07:31 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:07:31 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: inverse of izip
References: <d11dcfba.0408182144.14aad4a8@posting.google.com>
	<loom.20040819T092507-31@post.gmane.org>
	<41245B48.3020000@zeomega.com>
Message-ID: <loom.20040819T100054-648@post.gmane.org>

Satchidanand Haridas <sharidas <at> zeomega.com> writes:
> How about using iter() to get another solution like the following:
> 
>  >>> starzip2 = lambda it: tuple([iter(x) for x in itertools.izip(*it)])
> 
>  >>> l,m = starzip2(itertools.izip(range(10),range(10)))
> 
>  >>> l
> <tupleiterator object at 0x4016802c>
>  >>> m
> <tupleiterator object at 0x4016896c>
> 
>  >>> list(l)
> [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9]
>  >>> list(m)
> [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9]


Unfortunately, I think this exhausts the iterators too early because it 
applies * to the iterator:

>>> def range10():
...     for i in range(10):
...             yield i
...     print "exhausted"
...
>>> l,m = starzip2(itertools.izip(range10(),range10()))
exhausted

I believe we only get one "exhausted" because as soon as one iterator is used 
up with izip, the next iterator is discarded.  But we are hitting "exhausted" 
before we ever ask for an element from the starzip2 iterators, so it looks to 
me like all the pairs from the first iterator are read into memory before the 
second iterators are ever accessed...

Steve



From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Fri Aug  6 14:04:22 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:04:22 -0700
Subject: unicode to ascii converting
References: <mailman.1296.1091813051.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1091815856.527127@news.commspeed.net>


"Peter Wilkinson" <pwilkinson at videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:mailman.1296.1091813051.5135.python-list at python.org...
> Hello tlistmembers,
>
> I am using the encoding function to convert unicode to ascii. At one point
> this code was working just fine, however, now it has broken.
>
> I am reading a text file that has is in unicode (I am unsure of which
> flavour or bit depth). as I read in the file one line at a time
> (readlines()) it converts to ascii. Simple enough. At the same time I am
> copressing to bz2 with the bz2 module but that works just fine.  The code
> is and error reported appears below. I am unsure what to do.
>
> I assume that because it is reporting that ordinal is not in range, that
> something to do with the character width that I am reading?
>
> Peter W.
>
> def encode_file(file_path, encode_type, compress='N'):
>      """
>      Changes encoding of file
>      """
>      new_encode = encode_type
>      old_file_path = file_path + '.old'
>      new_file_path = file_path
>      os.rename(file_path,old_file_path)
>      file_in  = file(old_file_path,'r')
>
>      if compress == 'Y' or compress == 'y':
>          bz_file_path = file_path + '.bz2'
>          bz_file_out  = bz2.BZ2File(bz_file_path, 'w')
>          for line in file_in.readlines():
>              bz_file_out.write(line.encode(new_encode))
>          bz_file_out.close()
>
>      else:
>          file_out = file(file_path,'w')
>          for line in file_in.readlines():
>              file_out.write(line.encode(new_encode))
>          file_out.close()
>
>      file_in.close()
>      os.remove(old_file_path)
>
> ERROR Reported:
>
> Parsing
>
X:\GenomeQuebec_repository\microarray\HIS\M15K\Step_1_repository\HISH0224.tx
t
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>    File "C:\Program Files\ActiveState Komodo 2.5\callkomodo\kdb.py", line
> 433, in _do_start
>      self.kdb.run(code_ob, locals, locals)
>    File "C:\Python23\lib\bdb.py", line 350, in run
>      exec cmd in globals, locals
>    File "C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\xBio\Scripts\unicodeToAscii.py",
> line 158, in ?
>      main()
>    File "C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\xBio\Scripts\unicodeToAscii.py",
> line 75, in main
>      encode_file(fileToProcess, options.encode,  'Y')
>    File "C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\xBio\Scripts\unicodeToAscii.py",
> line 144, in encode_file
>      bz_file_out.write(line.encode(new_encode))
> UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xff in position 0:
> ordinal not in range(128)
>
I've encountered this problem before and the solution I've come up with a
fix that works but is probably not the best,

def is_ord (strng):
    new_text = ''
    for i in strng:
        if ord(i) > 127:
            new_text = new_text + ''
        else:
            new_text = new_text + i
    return new_text

#Then just,

text_from_file = is_ord(text_from_file)

Tom




From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Sat Aug  7 16:54:29 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 16:54:29 -0400
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
In-Reply-To: <cf3cvt$d3i$1@namru.matavnet.hu>
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu> <cf3b56$gt6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>
	<cf3cvt$d3i$1@namru.matavnet.hu>
Message-ID: <iq6dnbRwnbwU3IjcRVn-vQ@giganews.com>

Mikl?s wrote:


> Yes, this was exactly my point. Performance and GIL. Those are problems.
> And problems must be solved.  After that add features... if they are really
> needed.

nah,

first we need to attend to pressing needs, such as replacing

my_list.reverse()
for item in my_list:
   ...

with the incomparably more pythonic:

for item in reversed(my_list):
   ...

and at the same time, we need to replace the ridiculous:

my_list.sort()
for item in my_list:
  ...

with:

for item in my_list.sorted():
   ...

note the consistency in 'sort' and 'reverse' and the lack of
that in the usage of sorted and reversed.

Istvan.



From jsaker at americanrelay.com  Tue Aug 17 17:09:14 2004
From: jsaker at americanrelay.com (James R. Saker Jr.)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:09:14 -0500
Subject: network server threading
Message-ID: <1092776954.30276.27.camel@localhost>

I've got a: "start server thread > Queue object, start server thread <>
Queue object, start parsing client < Queue object" application that's
got me puzzled. Probably an easy threads issue, but after digging thru
Programming Python and Python Recipes sections on Threading class and
running thru the examples, I'm still missing something.

My Server/Server/Client app is a syslog collector app (syslog input in,
zope control web interface to manage ala start/stop/status, and BEEPy
out) - two servers and one client app that has got me somewhat puzzled
per how to handle with threads. The app:

1. read in config file
2. launch a syslog server to listen on port 514, taking input and
putting it into a database-persistent Queue (I'm using BDB's DB_QUEUE
implemented in a class Logfile which I've created to allow me to:

	l = Logfile(db_filename, db_recsize) ## BSD DB's Queue has a fixed
record length limitation which gets set by db.set_re_len

	and then

	l.push("Syslog data.....")
	l.push("More syslog data...")

	as well as l.pop(), l.hasrec() and l.size() methods to control
	the Queue.

3. runs a test message to see if I've launched the first server and am
ready to do more work (this is where the second server and client will
come in once I'm crawling along).

The problem I run into is that I'm apparently not threading the syslog
server and returning control to my app:

class Syslogd(ThreadingUDPServer, InterruptibleServer):

is based on:
http://www.drbeat.li/pycgi/webutil.py/html?py=py/syslogd.py.txt
with modifications to reference my Berkeley DB Queue, instead of
displaying to sys.stdout.write. So far, so good - I'm logging and
writing to the database (though it appears to be committing on the
db.close() rather than writes, but that's another issue I'll have to
deal with via the BSD DB C/Java docs since the Python docs on it's Queue
method are limited - I've looked at ZODB for this as well).

Here's where I get into trouble, and as mentioned at the beginning, is
probably just a lack of me getting threads:

if __name__ == '__main__':

    try:
        log = Logfile('syslog.db',255) # create BSD DB Queue object
        syslogd = Syslogd(log, timefmt='%H:%M:%S') #create syslog object
        syslogd.serve() #start serving syslog input on port
	print "This is a test"
    except KeyboardInterrupt:
        print "Closing queue database..."
        log.close()
        print "Operation canceled by user."
    

I never get to the test print, as once I'm in syslog.serve(), I'm there
until I quit. Maybe I'm missing the logic here completely - if I want to
share access to Logfile between syslogd object and two other objects, am
I on the wrong track? 

Eventually, after threading syslog.serve(), I need to do the same with
the Zope HTTP service (which allows control to the application, much
like HTTP to a Linksys router for status, configuration, start, stop
functions), and also launching the BEEPy parsing of data from the Queue
which gets passed onto a database upstream. Talking BEEP is a must due
to the firewalls involved, so no distributed object approach will help
here. A "syslogd in, dump to queue backed by database in case device
gets shut off before it can parse and send, and a parse & send via BEEP
engine" model.

Maybe there's a better example out there of:
1. start server dumping to a shared object
2. start another server accessing a shared object
3. start a client processing the shared object

model someone is aware of - ala Queue? 

Thanks much... 

Jamie
"So much to learn, so little caffeine!"




From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Thu Aug 19 13:11:48 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:11:48 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <mailman.1937.1092903657.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4124d4a4$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
Message-ID: <ob5Vc.4397$Jn5.1001@fe1.texas.rr.com>

"Scott David Daniels" <Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org> wrote in message
news:4124d4a4$1 at nntp0.pdx.net...
> Mike Brenner wrote:
>
> > I was born about 10,000 years ago and I used to
> > program computers made of human beings who
> > were aligned in tiers. The bottom tier counted
> > the grains in the baskets. The next tier
> > counted the baskets in the barn, then the
> > number of brans in each country.
> >
> Don't laugh.  I met a woman roughly my age (53 now)
> whose mother was a programmer at los Alamos (or was
> it Trinity?) -- she programmed rooms of people
> running mechanical calculators (calculate this, if
> a > b, pass your results right, otherwise, ...)
>
> Scott David Daniels
> Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org

This technique is also described in Neal Stephenson's book "Cryptonomicon".

-- Paul




From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Sun Aug  1 20:05:33 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 20:05:33 -0400
Subject: transforming a list into a string
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1032.1091401185.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <pan.2004.07.31.12.27.23.547000@hotmail.com>
	<roy-982174.13075831072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<cegqdu$2fb$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<mailman.1020.1091310303.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-FDE83B.19595731072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1022.1091319366.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011814020.21160-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1032.1091401185.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011957470.22508-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>

On Sun, 1 Aug 2004, Tim Peters wrote:

> [Christopher T King]
> > ...
> > Curious, why isn't slicing of generators defined, using islice(), so "it1
> > = iter(items)[0::2]" is valid?
> 
> If only some iterators implement it (like generator-iterators), then the
> general interchangeability of iterable objects we enjoy today would be
> damaged too.

Ah, I see your point.  But most functions that expect iterators use iter()  
on them first (to iterize sequences), do they not?  So long as iter()  
supplies the necessary __getslice__ implementation, the world would be
happy.  This situation would mirror the situation with list(): though a
user-defined sequence might not implement __getslice__ (and still be
usable as a list), the object returned by list() is guaranteed to.



From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Thu Aug  5 12:44:02 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 12:44:02 -0400
Subject: Python cgi script
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1198.1091721291.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1198.1091721291.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051233240.10172-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Yong Wang wrote:

> file=open('/apps/www/htdocs/internal/nd/output1', 'r')
> flag=0
> while not flag
>     aLine = file.readline()
>     if aLine != "":
>         print aLine
>         print '\n'
>     else:
>         flag = 1
> file.close()
> print "</body>"
> print "</html>" 

> The output from print statement above in web can display, but no line
> separation between different lines. How can I preserve the orginal line
> format of the input file (space within a line and space between lines)?

HTML generally ignores whitespace.  You need to either append a break tag 
(<br/>) to each line, or enclose the output in <pre>...</pre>.  Also don't 
forget to start the document with <html><body>.

A couple of other notes:

file.readline() retains the line's newline terminator, and print adds one.  
Your code ends up printing 4 newlines per actual line.  Just using
'print aLine,' should work (the trailing comma prevents print from adding 
a newline).

Assuming you are using a relatively recent version of Python (2.2 or 2.3, 
not sure about 2.1), you can rewrite your loop using iteration over the 
file object:

 for aLine in file:
     print aLine,



From della at toglimi.linux.it  Mon Aug 16 09:15:31 2004
From: della at toglimi.linux.it (Matteo Dell'Amico)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:15:31 GMT
Subject: Why does this (very simple piece of) code does not work?
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.16.13.03.51.421000@hotmail.com>
References: <pan.2004.08.16.13.03.51.421000@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Tr2Uc.41599$1V3.1112895@twister2.libero.it>

jblazi wrote:
>        os.rename(x,y)

> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<stdin>", line 9, in ?
> OSError: [Errno 22] Invalid argument

Works fine here (Linux). Maybe you're using a platform where you use 
invalid characters for the filename?

-- 
Ciao,
Matteo


From fumanchu at amor.org  Sat Aug 21 00:11:31 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:11:31 -0700
Subject: J2 decorator grammar
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E1B@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

> Michael Sparks wrote:
> 
> > decorator: dotted_name [ '(' [arglist] ')' ]
> > funcdef: ['decorate' ':' NEWLINE INDENT decorators DEDENT ] 
> 'def' NAME
> parameters ':' suite
> 
> Would you consider this instead?
> 
> decorator_suite: expression_stmt | NEWLINE INDENT expression_stmt+
> DEDENT
> funcdef: ['decorate' ':' decorator_suite] 'def' NAME parameters ':'
> suite

Never mind on re-using 'expression_stmt'; it's easiest right now just to
keep the com_decorator() approach. But it still might be nice to go with
a new, explicit suite. It's more in line with the other compound_stmt
grammars. In addition, it might help solve your scoping issue to handle.

decorator: dotted_name [ '(' [arglist] ')' ]
decorator_suite: decorator | NEWLINE INDENT decorator+ DEDENT
funcdef: ['decorate' ':' decorator_suite] 'def' NAME parameters ':'
suite


Did you ever fix the scope issue? Might it have something to do with:

static void
symtable_node(struct symtable *st, node *n)
{
	int i;

 loop:
	switch (TYPE(n)) {
	case funcdef: {
		char *func_name;
		if (NCH(n) == 6)
			symtable_node(st, CHILD(n, 0));

..I would think changing "if (NCH(n) == 6)" to 11 for your existing
grammar would "do the same thing" for J2 that this does for A1.



Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From mwh at python.net  Wed Aug 25 07:03:10 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:03:10 GMT
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m3u0urh441.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> writes:

> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:26:26 GMT, Martin DeMello
> <martindemello at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > It seems to be a fairly common pattern for an object-modifying method to
> > return None - however, this is often quite inconvenient.
> 
> list.reverse() modifies the list in place. The python idiom is that
> these don't return a reference to the modified list. Although note the
> new list.sorted() method in 2.4...

It's a builtin now (as is reversed).

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Back in the old days, software would grow until it could send and
  receive e-mail, but now that even the virusses are doing that, the
  fashion has changed, and now software evolves until it has venomous
  fangs, the better to do serious damage when it sucks.    -- AdB, asr


From fumanchu at amor.org  Mon Aug  9 02:46:37 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 23:46:37 -0700
Subject: profile stats interpretation
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022DE7@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

I've been working on optimizing some code (yes, it really needs it--it's
too slow ;) -- decided to use hotshot. I'm assuming things about the
output of hotshot.stats that I want to verify before I make decisions
off of them.

Here's an example of output I'm getting. I coded the same function 3
different ways--it's basically a type coercer. Each method results in
different stats (for the same request):

   ncalls  tottime  percall  cumtime  percall filename:lineno(function)
    17582    0.670    0.000    1.428    0.000 logic.py:133(coerce)

   ncalls  tottime  percall  cumtime  percall filename:lineno(function)
    17582    0.509    0.000    1.829    0.000 logic.py:133(coerce)

   ncalls  tottime  percall  cumtime  percall filename:lineno(function)
    17582    0.604    0.000    1.202    0.000 logic.py:133(coerce)

The question is: which of these three should I keep? Is "tottime" the
time of the code within coerce(), without regard to functions called
from coerce()? If so, it seems method #2 is superior. Finally, why might
#3 have a much lower cumtime but higher tottime than #2, given that I
didn't change any other code? Hmmm.


FWIW, here's the function.

Method #1:
    
    def coerce(self, value, valuetype=None):
        if valuetype is None:
            valuetype = type(value)
        try:
            xform = self.processors[valuetype]
        except KeyError:
            xform = self.default_processor
        return xform(value)

Method #2:
    
    def coerce(self, value, valuetype=None):
        if valuetype is None:
            valuetype = type(value)
        xform = self.processors.get(valuetype, self.default_processor)
        return xform(value)

Method #3:

    def coerce(self, value, valuetype=None):
        if valuetype is None:
            valuetype = type(value)
        if valuetype in self.processors:
            xform = self.processors[valuetype]
        else:
            xform = self.default_processor
        return xform(value)


Any advice would be appreciated.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From fumanchu at amor.org  Sun Aug 22 01:12:59 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 22:12:59 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WE
	DONE?
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E23@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Paul McGuire wrote:
> Well, after 3 days of open polling, the number of additional 
> votes have
> dropped off pretty dramatically.  Here are the results so far:
> 
> Total voters: 55 (with 3 votes each)

Funny, I have 56. But I counted Paul Rubin (J4, None, None). ;)

> However, the multivote format gives us some additional 
> information, over
> conventional "one-person-one-vote" format.  Of the 55 voters, 
> 75% cast at
> least one vote for J2, while only 35% cast one or more votes 
> for C1.  From
> the standpoint of building concensus, I find this statistic 
> more compelling
> than the raw vote count.  It tells me that 3/4 of the voting 
> sample are at
> least open to the option presented by J2, so that developing community
> acceptance is more likely to happen more quickly with J2 than with C1.
>8
> I do *not* think that Guido plans to have a run-off between the
> chosen alternative and the @ syntax, nor that he would give much
> credence to one if it were held

Mostly true. He intimated today that he would like more confirmation
that the J2 proposal has broad support among all developers, not just
those thirsting for an alternative. Voting solely among alternatives
doesn't supply that statistic, and Doug Holton's poll, although it
included A1, used arbitrary "favorite candidates". Now that we are
approaching a more consensus alternative, it might be best (AFTER the
proposal is hashed out) to find a way to produce that statistic for him.
Personally, I would favor a list of names over an anonymous poll. Two
lists, actually--one of those who can support the J2 proposal, and those
who reject it in favor of A1.

Actually, I would favor him being completely swayed by the arguments in
the proposal, but I won't hold my breath. ;)

> But I think he *will* be pleased that among the babel of 
> syntax proposals that have been put forward, this fairly unstructured
and 
> unorganized group will have come to closure and met his challenge,
> and settled on *one* alternative option.

Yup. If for no other reason, because he can then reject it forever. ;)

> ...response rate now looks to be dropping off.  I am skeptical 
> that additional time will significantly change the results.

I think you should give it a Monday. End-of-week-only polls always fare
poorly in turnout. The release of the proposal draft by Monday morning
may also galvanize reaction on both sides.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From paddy3118 at netscape.net  Sat Aug 21 03:32:04 2004
From: paddy3118 at netscape.net (Paddy McCarthy)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 00:32:04 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <2ae25c6b.0408202332.c9db9af@posting.google.com>

Hi, I'm 44, 
Male, Partnered for life to Maggie and have two sprogs Owen 7 and
Guinan 9.

I started Programming because at 15 I liked to go to the Trent Polly
library where I learnt that High School kids had access to their DEC
Mini. I snuck down to the teletypes and wrote my first programs in
Basic. (I'm still bitter that the Computer was open to all schools but
it seemed that only the High school new about it ;-)

After that I learnt all about electrons, holes, migration, doping,
(yawn) You can say I learnt much more about the hardware than was
neccessary!

Along the way I was a Pascal bigot but got over that once they
standardised C, A C programmer, A C++ avoider,a forth dabbler, an AWK
expert, A Cadence SKILL expert - (marry Lisp to optional infix
notation and you end up with a very good language), Oh and I wrote my
own interpreter (in C on an Acorn RiscPC),
Over the years I have come to realise the one true editor is vi but
you must include its clones, and you must also admit that other
editors have their strong points. (apart from EMACS which is to be
avoided :-)

I also do perl and like a lot of people here - its for work only. 

Ideally I'd do most of my programming in AWK for small scripts, Python
for as much as is comfortable, C when neccessary, SKILL for nostalgia,
and others for unique capabilities, e.g. there is no constrained
random-generation of integers in Python for it to be used in testing
Digital ICs.

I'm carefully monitoring the kids and as soon as they show that sparc
of interest, I'll back off for fear of putting them off programming
for life :-)


Cheers, Pad.


From corey.coughlin at attbi.com  Wed Aug 18 17:05:12 2004
From: corey.coughlin at attbi.com (Corey Coughlin)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 14:05:12 -0700
Subject: Databases: Getting values by column name
References: <mailman.1846.1092811307.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <a8623416.0408181305.4789c743@posting.google.com>

Has anyone out there come up with a general purpose database table
like object that someone could use as a front end for any generic
database?  It seems like something that could be useful to a lot of
people.  Generally, we have a number of data structures in the
standard library, lists and dicts are built in while sets, queues, and
arrays are available in the standard library, it seems like tables
would be the next logical step.  It would probably make those
table-based computing people happy.  And it would be a natural, python
friendly front end to the db api.  You'd probably need a record class
with the ability to reference by position or column name, that
wouldn't be too hard.  Then a list-like container to hold the data,
with some functions to reference records, sort on some criteria,
select subsets, and so on. Is there a PEP out there for something like
this already, or is there a feature argument going on, or is it just
something nobody has gotten around to yet?


From nick at no.spam.org  Fri Aug 27 07:00:23 2004
From: nick at no.spam.org (Nick Efford)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:00:23 +0100
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.27.11.00.23.193052@no.spam.org>

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:42:15 -0700, Robert Brewer wrote:

> This is a call for all who wish to sign the proposal, either for,
> against, or abstaining.

FOR.  I could live with @ but I'm warming to J2, and you've
done some great work in presenting cogent arguments.

I'm with Alex M. in favouring 'as' over 'using'.


Nick Efford


From martin at v.loewis.de  Mon Aug 30 17:10:34 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:10:34 +0200
Subject: [IronPython] Jim Hugunin's web log.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2627.1093893089.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2627.1093893089.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <413397CA.8090209@v.loewis.de>

David Wilson wrote:
> Other random thoughts: my experiences of the Python community versus, 
> eg., the perl community make me believe that Pythonistas are generally 
> more accepting of commercial solutions than their open source weenie 
> perl counterparts (*duck*). 

I don't think this is an accurate description. Instead, Python is not
tied so much in Unix as Perl is (IMO). It is not Python's philosophy
to make all platforms look alike, but rather to expose all features of
a platform to the Python programmer - whether this is /dev/tty on Unix
or the registry on Windows. For features where it makes sense, a common
interface is established; other features are by nature restricted to
a single platform.

As a result of that philosophy, people are often tempted to port Python
to "strange" platforms (be that Mac OS 9, BeOS, VMS, or the JVM). They
then found that Python maintainers where open to changes resulting from
these ports as long no harm was done to Python "proper" (laissez-faire);
this continues to encourage people to experiment with the language, and
with various platforms.

Regards,
Martin


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 30 16:06:26 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:06:26 -0400
Subject: Size of a remote URL
In-Reply-To: <cgvvs5$c1d@odah37.prod.google.com>
References: <cgvvs5$c1d@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <k_OdnZyd_MVeFa7cRVn-jg@powergate.ca>

Justin wrote:

> Ok so the problem is that my code is not requesting the headers
> properly.  I get back.  Just that.  I don't know what the difference is
> between the IE request and mine
> 
> \ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 19:36:20 GMT
> Server: Apache/1.3.27 (Unix)  (Red-Hat/Linux) mod_ssl/2.8.12
> OpenSSL/0.9.6b DAV/
> 1.0.3 PHP/4.3.2 mod_perl/1.26
> Connection: close
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> 
> My code:
> for y in linklisttype:
> w = urlopen(y)
> z = w.info()
> x = z.getheader("Content-Length")
> file_sizes.append(x)
> Is there a better method for getting headers than urlopen?

Better how?  urlopen actually works when the Content-Length
header is provided.  If it doesn't, it's a bug in Python.
Can you or can you not provide an instance of a URL which
does not provide a Content-Length header using your above
code when IE in fact appears to get the length?

By the way, the above code works perfectly well when applied
to the first URL you gave above.  Have you got one where
it doesn't?

-Peter


From nhodgson at bigpond.net.au  Sat Aug  7 21:12:47 2004
From: nhodgson at bigpond.net.au (Neil Hodgson)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 01:12:47 GMT
Subject: decorators vs GIL
References: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>
	<mailman.1345.1091924284.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <j6fRc.39643$K53.19872@news-server.bigpond.net.au>

mudd at vex.net:

> I'm guessing the GIL is beyond any of us.  If it was easy, or even
> possible, someone would have already eliminated it.

   Greg Stein did produce a free threading version of Python.
http://python.tpnet.pl/contrib-09-Dec-1999/System/threading.README
   It performed much slower than GIL based Python, at something like 60% of
the GIL version with one processor. This is the expected result when
replacing a large scale lock with many finer grained locks: there is more
locking overhead. It is possible that techniques can be found to reduce the
free threading cost so it would be great for people to continue working on
this.
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2001-August/017099.html
   The barrier to keeping this code in standard Python as an option is the
amount of maintenance effort it represents both for itself and its impact on
the GIL version.

   Neil




From mike at nospam.com  Mon Aug 16 12:59:30 2004
From: mike at nospam.com (Mike Rovner)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:59:30 -0700
Subject: Flython?
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca><411cbcb1$0$3894$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net><W9qdnWhf8u7MI4HcRVn-ow@powergate.ca><30260531.0408131856.5ef3b0d3@posting.google.com><sMednfL4zqTR3b3cRVn-rA@powergate.ca>
	<2oc547F86br8U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <cfqp5g$a94$1@sea.gmane.org>

Daniel Ellison wrote:
> Peter Hansen wrote:

>> to come.  Flash has a compact bytecode, while SVG comes
>> as XML.  Need I say more?
>
> Nope! :)

OTOH, Flash bytecode is proprientary and may change "without notice", SVG is
an open standard. Client machines spped is also tend to increase.

I wish bytecode format be published somewhere. ;)

Mike





From michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk  Fri Aug 20 11:23:13 2004
From: michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk (Michael Sparks)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:23:13 +0100
Subject: Decorator keyword options - brainstorming
References: <7knVc.4599$Jn5.3074@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<cg5150$9if$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<HioVc.4613$Jn5.3188@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <cg55e4$bgk$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>

Paul McGuire wrote:
...
> Similarly, I feel our fixation on the "decorator" concept is
> confounded by our own understanding that the entries in a list of
> decorators such as:
... [ short list ] ...
> will translate to:
> foo = staticmethod(synchronize(memoize(foo)))
> 
> in the current vernacular.
> 
> But should we consider this implementation detail when coming up with
> this name? 

Since they're a list of functions that will be applied to the
function/method that follows, I personally think it's important.

Whilst many decorators can be alluded to as a keyword, I don't think all
decorators would be. Consider how you would describe the actions of
this list, or how you would describe this list of actions: (taken from
various sources)

      staticmethod
      generator
      grammarrule('statement : expression')
      versioninfo("Added in 2.4")
      deprecated
      typeinfo(None)
      author("joe bloggs")
      funcattrs(grammar="'@' dotted_name [ '(' [arglist] ')' ]",
               status="experimental", author="BDFL")

> qualify: (or perhaps qual:)
> property: (or perhaps prop:)
> On an alternative path, does this have to be a real word?  I confess
> that "qual" strikes me in an interesting way, in that it could be
> thought to represent either "qualifier" or "quality", and yet is
> neither.   

Personally I'd prefer a full word, but neither def or elif are full
words, so I doubt it _has_ to be, but I'd prefer something relevant to
what is happening behind the scenes rather than something ambiguous :)

> Or if "lambda" is used, why not some other Greek letter, such as "mu"
> or "sigma".

Because they're not really meaningful beyond a small number of people?

> This clearly represents some "thinking out loud". 

Ditto.

One other thing that jumped out at me is that different syntaxes
probably work better using different keywords. (Partly why I've snipped
decorator syntaxes)


Michael.
-- 
Michael.Sparks at rd.bbc.co.uk    
British Broadcasting Corporation, Research and Development
Kingswood Warren, Surrey KT20 6NP

This message (and any attachments) may contain personal views
which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.




From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug 30 17:34:50 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 21:34:50 GMT
Subject: "Content-Length" header
References: <ch05dt$t0p@odak26.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <41339d7a$0$8090$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-30, Justin <justin__devine at hotmail.com> wrote:

> URL open appears to not want to work unless its paramater is an actual
> string spelled out in quotes.

Nonsense.

> Check out the output to this code.  When I give urlopen
> objects instead of pre strings it doens't work correctly.

Bullshit.

> print linklisttype
>
> for y in linklisttype:
> temp = urlopen(y)
> print temp
> temp2 = temp.info()
> print temp2
> temp3 = temp2.getheader("Content-Length")
> print temp3
> file_sizes.append(temp3)
>
> print file_sizes

Again with the invalid snippets of code, eh?  You're trying
awfully hard to avoid getting helped.

> #here are the return values for y =0, didn't work

WTH is "y"?

> [None, None, '297984']

Those look like correct results to me.

I'll tell you _one_more_time_:  use Ethereal.  Here's the
transaction for your first URL:

  GET /~harnad/temp/ariadne-rae.doc HTTP/1.0
  Host: www.ecs.soton.ac.uk
  User-agent: Python-urllib/1.15

  HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found
  Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 21:27:42 GMT
  Server: Apache/1.3.27 (Unix)  (Red-Hat/Linux) mod_ssl/2.8.12
  OpenSSL/0.9.6b DAV/1.0.3 PHP/4.3.2 mod_perl/1.26
  Connection: close
  Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1

  <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//IETF//DTD HTML 2.0//EN">
  <HTML><HEAD>
  <TITLE>404 Not Found</TITLE>
  </HEAD><BODY>
  <H1>Not Found</H1>
  The requested URL /~harnad/temp/ariadne-rae.doc was not found
  on this server.<P>
  <HR>
  <ADDRESS>Apache/1.3.27 Server at www.ecs.soton.ac.uk Port
  80</ADDRESS>
  </BODY></HTML>

THERE IS NO CONTENT-LENGTH HEADER.  What do you expect urllib
to do?  The second of your URLs is also a 404 error with no
Content-length header.  The third URL is valid and does return
a content-length header:

  GET /systech/techsupport/procedures/2kcleanup.doc HTTP/1.0
  Host: www-admn.csun.edu
  User-agent: Python-urllib/1.15

  HTTP/1.1 200 OK
  Server: NetWare-Enterprise-Web-Server/5.1
  Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 21:27:43 GMT
  Content-type: application/msword
  Last-modified: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 22:50:08 GMT
  Content-length: 297984
  Accept-ranges: bytes
  Connection: close
[binary crap elided]  


-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Could I have a drug
                                  at               overdose?
                               visi.com            


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 17 12:12:40 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 12:12:40 -0400
Subject: Problem
In-Reply-To: <81a41dd.0408170543.3eab590a@posting.google.com>
References: <81a41dd.0408170543.3eab590a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <U9udnZ__B_3ns7_cRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>

Lad wrote:

> I have only one,
> the following line in my program
> 
> from _winreg import *
> 
> When I run it from PythonWin program( under windows)
> it works normally.
> 
> But when I try to run it from command line ( console) like
> python MyProgram.py 
> I will get the error
> 
>     from _winreg import *
> ImportError: DLL load failed: The specified module could not be found.

Can you cut and paste into another posting the full traceback,
including the command you actually used to run the program?

-Peter


From porky_pig_jr at my-deja.com  Sat Aug 14 18:09:00 2004
From: porky_pig_jr at my-deja.com (Porky Pig Jr)
Date: 14 Aug 2004 15:09:00 -0700
Subject: decorators: what's wrong with 'def [decorator-list] function-name
	(arguments)'
Message-ID: <56cfb0e3.0408141409.239bb893@posting.google.com>

Lurking on this site, watching the discussion on decorators.
Personally I like them inside the list. There were some arguments made
that having the list before 'def', such as

[static schmatic]
def f1(): pass

is bad because it breaks many things. But I can't find any references
to what's wrong with

def [static schmatic] f1(): pass

Yes, it pushes the function name further from 'def', but then we don't
need to use those abominable @@@@@. Any comments?

TIA.


From davids at webmaster.com  Sun Aug 29 21:13:55 2004
From: davids at webmaster.com (David Schwartz)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 18:13:55 -0700
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4dyXc.25792$Ot3.22106@twister.nyc.rr.com>
	<878yc0ucyl.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<cgnr8l$egb$1@nntp.webmaster.com>
	<20040827135423.154$1T@newsreader.com>
	<cgp2u4$5nk$1@nntp.webmaster.com>
	<cgq7ki$eg1$1@hercules.btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <cgtv0s$sun$1@nntp.webmaster.com>


"Ian Wilson" <scobloke2 at infotop.co.uk> wrote in message 
news:cgq7ki$eg1$1 at hercules.btinternet.com...

>>>>    I don't follow you at all. I think you'll find the most useful,
>>>>meaningful complaints about, say, a Ford Explorer from the people who
>>>>drive one every day.

>>>And if they continue to drive one everyday, perhaps you would conclude
>>>that their complaints are insincere.

>>     That's a load of crap.

> You're both right but ...
>
> Xah Lee: "I'm starting my own cult to exterminate morons on
> this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl."
>
> Pascal Bourguignon: <Xah Lee's website runs on Linux, a Unix-like OS>
>
> Is more like
>
> Joe Blow: I'm going to exterminate all morons who drive a Ford Explorer.
>
> Fred Bloggs: But Joe, you drive a Ford Explorer!

    The you're missing is that 'unixism' has nothing to do with *using* 
UNIX.

> Rather than
>
> Joe Blow: Ford Explorers are a little bit expensive to service and the 
> doors squeak after a couple of years.
>
> Fred Bloggs: Thanks for the tip Joe, I see you drive one, so you should 
> know.

    The problem with 'unixism' is its affect on UNIX, and it would be 
logical that only those people who use UNIXes are affected by 'unixism' and 
concerned about it.

    DS




From tim.peters at gmail.com  Sun Aug 15 15:49:45 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:49:45 -0400
Subject: Trouble with file.seek/file.tell on Win32?
In-Reply-To: <16671.45400.965715.943437@enthought.hathway.com>
References: <16671.45400.965715.943437@enthought.hathway.com>
Message-ID: <1f7befae04081512496c6f2727@mail.gmail.com>

[Prabhu Ramachandran]
> I noticed peculiar behavior under Python-2.3.4 under Win32.  When I
> run something like this:
>
> f = open('t.txt', 'wb')
> f.write('1\012'+'2\012'+'3\012')
> f.close()
> f = open('t.txt', 'r')

Sorry, you're in trouble already.  You can *tell* Windows that's a
text file, but it doesn't contain native Windows text-file data (it
has the wrong kind of line end for Windows).

> f.readline()
> pos = f.tell()
> val = f.read(1)
> f.seek(pos)
> assert val == f.read(1)
>
> I get an assertion error at this point.  Everything works fine if I
> read the file with 'rb' instead of 'r'.

Yes, then you're not lying to Windows about the kind of data it contains.

> But I can almost swear that this used to work earlier.  I suspect that
> this behavior arises due to recent changes in fileobject.c (specifically,
> v2.187) where universal newline support was removed.

Nope.

> Could someone please clarify if this is this a bug or not?  I would
> like to think that using tell and seek should work reliably enough for
> text files.

They do, provided they really are text files.

Let's add more output to your program:

f = open('t.txt', 'wb')
if 1:
    f.write('1\012'+'2\012'+'3\012')
else:
    f.write('1\r\n'+'2\r\n'+'3\r\n')
f.close()
f = open('t.txt', 'r')
f.readline()
pos = f.tell()
print 'pos', pos
val = f.read(1)
print 'read', repr(val)
f.seek(pos)
val2 = f.read(1)
print 'read', repr(val2)

That displays this when I run it on Windows:

pos 0
read '2'
read '1'

Now here's a C program on Windows:

#include <stdio.h>
void main() {
    char buf[100];
    long pos;
    FILE *f = fopen("t.txt", "wb");
    fputs("1\n2\n3\n", f);
    fclose(f);
    f = fopen("t.txt", "r");
    fgets(buf, sizeof(buf), f);
    pos = ftell(f);
    printf("pos %ld\n", pos);
    fread(buf, 1, 1, f);
    printf("read '%c'\n", buf[0]);
    fseek(f, pos, 0);
    fread(buf, 1, 1, f);
    printf("read '%c'\n", buf[0]);
}

And here's what that displays:

pos 0
read '2'
read '1'

Same thing:  the Python program has exactly the same behavior as the C program.

If you change "if 1" to "if 0" in my rewritten version, it creates a
legitimate Windows text file instead, and then the output changes:

pos 3
read '2'
read '2'

Same thing if the C program is changed similarly.

> The reason this is important for me is that I've been generating text
> files (with gay abandon) for MayaVi (http://mayavi.sf.net) for three
> years now.  I always open the file using 'r'/'w' and not 'rb'/'wb'.
> Everything used to work fine.

I think you must be confusing something.  Your program had the same
behavior in 2.2.3 on Windows too, which is the oldest Python I have
handy.  It could have appeared to work by accident in some cases,
though.

...
> p.s. Please CC me in on replies.  I'm not tracking c.l.py.  Thanks.

OK, done.


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 28 07:18:34 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 13:18:34 +0200
Subject: Question about references/copies
References: <pan.2004.08.28.07.52.35.422774@gmx.de>
	<mailman.2559.1093686265.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1gj8afj.rcaoglblmqwjN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:

> "Henning Kage" <c0dec at gmx.de> wrote in message 
> news:pan.2004.08.28.07.52.35.422774 at gmx.de...
> > I'm using Python only for some months now and I'm wondering, whether such
> > assignments as above are creating bitwise copies of an object or just
> > recieve a reference. That means I wanted to know, wheter Python in 
> > general
> > differs between references and copies:
> 
> Better to think of Python this way: it has objects and bindings of objects
> to one or more targets (names and slots of composite objects).  Binding
> statements (target = expression) always and only assign targets to objects.

Yes, the binding per se never does anything more, if it is to a bare
name (if it's to an indexing, a slicing, or an attribute reference aka a
dotted name, things can become more interesting sometimes).  And
normally the expression itself makes no copies unless copies are
specifically requested in it.  Slicing though is the interesting part.

Slicing always creates a new object (except that whole-object slicing of
an immutable sliceable need not).  But the interesting issue is with the
TARGETS, the SLOTS, inside that new object.  Are they the SAME slots as
in the object being sliced?  If said object is a list or instance of
array.array -- no, the slots are new and separate ones.

E.g., consider:

>>> z = [] 
>>> a = [ z, z, 23 ]
>>> sys.getrefcount(z)
4
>>> b = a[:]
>>> sys.getrefcount(z)
6

Here, slicing does create three new slots, two of which are additional
references to the same list object z refers to.  However:

>>> z = []
>>> a = Numeric.zeros((3,), 'O')
>>> a[0]=a[1]=z
>>> sys.getrefcount(z)
4
>>> b = a[:]
>>> sys.getrefcount(z)
4

Here, slicing "shares" the SAME slots that 'a' already had, so there is
no change in the reference count of the list object z refers to.


Alex
 


From rnd at onego.ru  Thu Aug 19 00:09:49 2004
From: rnd at onego.ru (Roman Suzi)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:09:49 +0400 (MSD)
Subject: introspection?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408181840570.966-100000@sextans.mesa.lowellnet>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408181840570.966-100000@sextans.mesa.lowellnet>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408190801310.14733@rnd.onego.ru>

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Jim Benson wrote:

I am using different approach to introspection of Python
functions and methods (not all available info output,
only name of the previously called function/method).
I am not sure if this is better than getting sys._getframe()
or not, at least it doesn't use undescore methods ;-)
and "knowns" about all invocation history at once,
could even show source code, etc.

import traceback
def Introspec(msg):
   print traceback.extract_stack()[-2][2] + ":", msg

class AAA:
   def foo(self):
      Introspec("i'm running")

def a(x):
   Introspec('i am running')
   aaa = AAA()
   aaa.foo()

def b(x):
   Introspec('I am running')
   a(x)

b(10)



>On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Troy Melhase wrote:
>
>> import sys
>> def F():
>>     print sys._getframe().f_code.co_name
>> >>> F()
>> F
>
>ooooh...thanks Troy!
>indeed that works fine for getting the method name.
>
>Thanks to all...and apologies for taking the easy way out
>by posting to this very helpful list rather than
>doing more research with google (actually i did
>do a search for 'python class method introspection'
>before posting...i didn't look at all the returns).
>
>Thanks,
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>
>

Sincerely yours, Roman Suzi
-- 
rnd at onego.ru =\= My AI powered by GNU/Linux RedHat 7.3


From merlyn at stonehenge.com  Thu Aug 26 11:57:51 2004
From: merlyn at stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 08:57:51 -0700
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<776e0325.0408260433.449660c8@posting.google.com>
	<412dfc1c$0$65599$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <86hdqpriww.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>

*** post for FREE via your newsreader at post.newsfeed.com ***

>>>>> "Grant" == Grant Edwards <grante at visi.com> writes:

Grant>    "Guido said it, that settles it, but we're going to discuss
Grant>     it endlessly and and vote on it using six or seven
Grant>     different voting algorithms anyway.  Then we'll argue about
Grant>     the voting algorithms."

Are the voting algorithms indented consistently?  That's a necessity,
correct?  Surely, they have significant whitespace.

/me ducks back under his rock

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn at stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!


 -----= Posted via Newsfeed.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeed.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== 100,000 Groups! - 19 Servers! - Unlimited Download! =-----
                  


From flory at fdu.edu  Sun Aug 15 19:23:37 2004
From: flory at fdu.edu (flory at fdu.edu)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 19:23:37 -0400
Subject: pyRegistry AttributeError
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAA48bIjzpX0xGAzADAT0HvxsKAAAAQAAAA1TNgLGlFx0C4uH/qFWv48AEAAAAA@fdu.edu>

 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I just downloaded pyRegistry (the 2004-08-11 binary update, v1.0.3) and am
having a problem.  My test code is:

===============
import pyRegistry
baseKey = "HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Themes"
basereg = pyRegistry.open(baseKey) 
print basereg.getValueNames()
print basereg.getKeyNames()
============

Which returns

=================
D:\bin>test_pyRegistry
('Drop Shadow', 'Flat Menus', 'SetupVersion', 'InstallTheme',
'InstallVisualStyle')
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "D:\bin\test_pyRegistry.py", line 5, in ?
    print basereg.getKeyNames()
AttributeError: getKeyNames
============

It appears as though open() and getValueNames() both work fine while
getKeyNames throws an error.  

I am running Python 2.3.4 on a WinXP machine.  Any suggestions as to what I am
doing wrong? Or, might there be a problem with pyRegistry?

In advance, many thanks for any help.

- --------------------------------------------------
David Flory

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JM57jHKr1UKhDUZi83pF3RrS
=bn4W
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From gregor.jan at NOSPAMquick.cz  Sun Aug 22 12:21:22 2004
From: gregor.jan at NOSPAMquick.cz (Jan Gregor)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 18:21:22 +0200
Subject: python a jdbc
References: <slrnchv42a.278.gregor.jan@ins1.opera.com>
	<2004082022464216807%webstuff@fluidiccom>
Message-ID: <slrncihi02.5t8.gregor.jan@ins1.opera.com>

Because many things - wxWindows (java binding is poor and java gui's
aren't good enough), slow startup of jython (in development time) ...

In article <2004082022464216807%webstuff at fluidiccom>, J wrote:
> On 2004-08-15 12:33:14 -0400, Jan Gregor <gregor.jan at NOSPAMquick.cz> said:
> 
>> Is there some to use jdbc driver with python ? I thought about
>> communication between java process and python throught sockets. Simple
>> test worked fine.
>> 
>> Jan
> 
> Why not use jython if it is a java app that you want a hook a python 
> interpeter into the application.
> 


From mjackson at alumni.caltech.edu  Fri Aug 20 11:36:06 2004
From: mjackson at alumni.caltech.edu (Mark Jackson)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 15:36:06 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl> <ZFoVc.360$MR2.1503@news1.mts.net>
Message-ID: <cg55p6$ofq$1@news.wrc.xerox.com>

Reid Nichol <rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com> writes:
> Gerrit Muller wrote:

> > and then a quantum leap towards Python.
> You're aware that a quantum leap means a extremely small leap, right?

Everything's relative - compared to the smallest possible change in the
classical continuum, a quantum leap is *huge*.

-- 
Mark Jackson - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
	Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it
	is the merger of state and corporate power.
				- Benito Mussolini




From psXdaXsilva at esotericaX.ptX  Fri Aug 20 16:58:43 2004
From: psXdaXsilva at esotericaX.ptX (Paulo da Silva)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:58:43 +0100
Subject: "Socket" files?
Message-ID: <1093035812.83612@jubilee.esoterica.pt>

How are those "files" of type "socket", whose name
begins with "=", created? How can I create them with
python?

Thanks.


From ruflicks at yahoo.fr  Sat Aug 28 09:43:45 2004
From: ruflicks at yahoo.fr (ruflicks)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 06:43:45 -0700
Subject: Zope help system, password needed in windows
Message-ID: <cddf980f.0408280543.2607288b@posting.google.com>

Hi all, i may be flamed but did not find anything on that. I have zope
2.7 running on windows 98 and I really like it. Problem is when i use
the zope help system I am asked to give a login and password to get
access to some sections (python scripts API reference and zope API
reference). I tried my standard admin login but hey it didn't work
with that one. I am a python and zope nubee so i was thinking it could
help me reading that doc. I would really appreciate it if someone
could tell me what i missed.

Best regards.


From m.boeren at guidance.nl  Thu Aug 19 06:13:33 2004
From: m.boeren at guidance.nl (Marc Boeren)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:13:33 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
Message-ID: <0C77C7530EA52A4EBD1C47C80D1D291E07F9ED@sbs.GuidanceBV.local>


>>> howoldami()
34


>>> bye()
Marc Boeren


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 17 08:35:50 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:35:50 -0400
Subject: How big can a Python program be?
In-Reply-To: <903b3fba.0408170333.49ce3944@posting.google.com>
References: <903b3fba.0408170333.49ce3944@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <DZKdnWOMArY6ZrzcRVn-rw@powergate.ca>

vronskij at post.sk wrote:
> A C program can be hundreds of thousands lines of code big.
> C++ millions.
> 
> How about Python?
> 
> Suppose , you are a sole programmer (lonewolf). How many lines can one handle?

What are you actually asking?  What technical limitations,
such as maximum line count per module, Python might have?

Or how productive the average programmer can be in terms
of lines of Python code produced per day?

Or something else entirely?

Note that lines of code is a pretty poor measure of productivity,
especially if you just use an average statistic, because it's
hard to judge whether those lines are bug-free or bug-ridden,
and because there is an extremely wide variation in productivity
between different programmers (one oft-published ratio is 30:1).

And more importantly than anything: why do you want to know
such things?  This information is critical to providing you
with a useful answer.

-Peter


From nid_oizo at yahoo.com_removethe_  Mon Aug 23 08:31:17 2004
From: nid_oizo at yahoo.com_removethe_ (Nicolas Fleury)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 08:31:17 -0400
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2154.1093185852.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2154.1093185852.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <drlWc.54764$F85.1168164@wagner.videotron.net>

Robert Brewer wrote:
> I had an ugly paragraph promoting 'declare' as a top candidate, but I've
> always liked 'using' (which many of you promoted within the past 24
> hours). Maybe the above will produce further polarization among you. ;)

+1 for using.
Nicolas


From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Mon Aug 16 01:24:34 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:24:34 -0700
Subject: Python secure?
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<411ffef6$0$65603$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <t1t5v1-316.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

Grant Edwards wrote:
> I don't see how decompiling is a copyright violation.  If I buy
> a copy of a book, I'm pretty sure I can translate it into
> another language if I want to form my own use.

They need to use what they decompile for it to be a copyright
violation.  Additionally every proprietary software license
I have seen forbids decompilation and reverse engineering.

> In some places (Europe?)
> reverse-engineering is explicitly allowed by law.

Only for the purposes of interoperability, and only if
there is no other way.  It is Article 6 of directive
91/250.  Note that not only can you only do it for
interoperability reasons, you can only do so if the interoperability
information is not available, and you can only do it on the parts
needed for interoperability.

http://europa.eu.int/ISPO/legal/en/ipr/software/text.html#HD_NM_6

The whole directive is contained in that page.  You are not allowed
to do the decompilation on anything just because you feel like it.

I have seen software license agreements that also state you must
contact the vendor legal department if you intend to exercise
the rights from article 6 above.

> What other laws?

The laws broken would depend on what you did with the decompiled
code.  They would be different based on whether you just read it,
made a modified copy of the program, sold the code, sold modified
versions, revealed trade secrets etc.

Roger 




From JimJJewett at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 14:06:00 2004
From: JimJJewett at yahoo.com (Jim Jewett)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 11:06:00 -0700
Subject: decorator J4 - any objections?
Message-ID: <cab22418.0408201006.16f163b2@posting.google.com>

Guido has said that he is open to considering *one* alternative 
decorator syntax.  At the moment, (Phillip Eby's suggestion) J4 

<URL: http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators > (section 5.21 J4) 

looks very good to me -- and it is the only alternative without negatives.

   def func(arg1, arg2)
       @version("Added in 2.4")
       @returns(None)
   as:
       """Docstring could be here, or in decorator part above"""
       # body goes here

(Note the lack of colon on the func line; adding it would be more 
consistent and not hurt readability.)

   def func(arg1, arg2):
       @version("Added in 2.4")
       @returns(None)
   as:
       """Docstring could be here, or in decorator part above"""
       # body goes here

While I think this is the best solution so far, I realize that others 
have often disagreed with me on this issue -- so I would appreciate 
some feedback, particularly from those who don't like the J4 syntax.

Disclosure:  I like decorators on their own, but they are enough of 
a special case that I worry about cluttering up the language as a 
whole.  J4 seems the best compromise to me, but I could also make 
peace with Guido's current @proposal.

-jJ


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 19:51:22 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 19:51:22 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <b8ad139e.0408261420.22d14998@posting.google.com>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b8ad139e.0408261420.22d14998@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cglt1p$epd$1@sea.gmane.org>

Jess Austin wrote:
> Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> 
>>Currently, you can change a doc string outside of a function, by 
>>modifying the function's __doc__ attribute
> 
> 
> [snip]
> 
> 
>>IMO, to change it inside of a function def should be (but isn't) as easy 
>>as...
>>
>>   >>> def foo():
>>   ...     """ I am foo """
>>   ...     __doc__ = __doc__ + 'indeed'
> 
> 
> I'm not trying to be mean, but why not use a class for this?

This is a contrived example; we probably wouldn't do this in practice. 
But some of us would like to do something like this

    def foo():
       __features__ = synchronized, memoized

...so that the function foo get's some special abilities from the 
'decorators' (or whatever we end up calling them) assigned to the 
__features__ attribute.

But before anyone is really going to accept that way of specifying a 
function's decorators, they need to be convinced that it's ok to think 
of __features__ as an attribute of the function foo (i.e. foo metadata), 
rather than a local variable.



> Paul: I admit I'm a bit confused by your
> wanting a function to have access to its metadata, because I could
> have sworn that earlier in the thread you defined metadata as data
> about an object that that object would never use itself.  I could be
> thinking of someone else though...
> 

Nope, that was me alright.  I don't want a function to have access to 
it's metadata.  Nothing's changed about that.  I want to be able to 
specify a function's metadata inside the function def, where it seems to 
most appropriately belong.

Others seem to want to specify a function's metadata outside of the 
function def, which just doesn't seem pythonic (IMO).







From jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl  Wed Aug 18 15:25:18 2004
From: jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl (Jarek Zgoda)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:25:18 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <cg0aeu$obh$3@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>

Lucas Raab <pythongnome at hotmail.com> pisze:

> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....

Now it's 33 and still ticks.

-- 
Jarek Zgoda
http://jpa.berlios.de/


From tim.peters at gmail.com  Sun Aug 29 11:17:11 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 11:17:11 -0400
Subject: Get all subdirs
In-Reply-To: <cgsk49$82c$00$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <cgsk49$82c$00$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <1f7befae0408290817d66e14e@mail.gmail.com>

[Florian Lindner]
> how can I get all subdirectories of a given directory. os.listdir(dir)
> doesn't differentiate between directories and files, os.walk seems to me a
> bit overkill since it also descends in the subdirs.

os.walk() is a generator -- it doesn't descend into anything unless
you resume it.  That's the usual case, but you don't need to resume
it.

def subdirs(dir):
    "Return list of the subdirectories of dir."
    for root, dirs, files in os.walk(dir):
        return dirs

works fine, or, perhaps more obscurely,

def subdirs(dir):
    "Return list of the subdirectories of dir."
    return os.walk(dir).next()[1]


From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  9 13:51:39 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 12:51:39 -0500
Subject: how many bytes in an int
In-Reply-To: <41171D06.6060507@v.loewis.de>
References: <9ACRc.1523$bJ2.9739@news1.mts.net>
	<4116f8ee$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<FADRc.1532$bJ2.9871@news1.mts.net> <41171D06.6060507@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <fQORc.1712$bJ2.10620@news1.mts.net>

Martin v. L?wis wrote:
> As Grant says: use the struct module. Use struct.calcsize to find out
> how large an int is. If the size is too large, try a short. If the size
> is too small, try a long. If no type matches, take the next larger type,
> and drop the extra bytes.
> 
> However, it does not actually need to be that difficult: "int" is 32-bit
> on all current systems, including all 64-bit systems (only long is 
> 64-bits on some 64-bit systems).
> 
> Regards,
> Martin

Thanks to all who helped.  This is my solution (maybe overkill) but I 
plan on adding read/write functions, etc (of course its just a first 
thought).  It seems to work, so any feedback is appreciated.

#!/usr/bin/env python
from struct import *

class FixedSizeInteger:
         def __init__(self, length_in_bytes, endianness='@'):
                 self.fmt = ''
                 self.endianness = endianness

                 # find the length_in_bytes byte datatype
                 for type in ['h', 'i', 'l', 'q']:
                         if length_in_bytes == calcsize(type):
                                 self.fmt = endianness + type

		# should throw an exception here
                 if self.fmt == '':
                         print 'ERROR: type not found'

         def printFmt(self):
                 print 'My format is ' + self.fmt


if __name__ == '__main__':
         test = FixedSizeInteger(4)

         test.printFmt()


From DeadWisdom at wisefool.net  Thu Aug 26 14:05:00 2004
From: DeadWisdom at wisefool.net (DeadWisdom)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 11:05:00 -0700
Subject: Help needed: Transition from SAS to PYTHON
References: <cgjilo$sit@odak26.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <a1d2c9b4.0408261005.3de8365c@posting.google.com>

"Alex  Pavluck" <apavluck at gmail.com> wrote in message news:<cgjilo$sit at odak26.prod.google.com>...
> Hello.  I am trying to teach myself PYTHON because I am interested in
> programming.  I use SAS all day and I really like the way you can
> highlight code and submit just that section or submit the entire
> program without having to save it.  Can you do this in PYTHON?  Also,
> does PYTHON (Windows) log errors?  It would be helpful when I am
> writting a program and I submit the code and it says that their is an
> error to know WHERE!  Once again this is another feature of SAS.  Have
> I just gotten too used to SAS or are there others out there that would
> also like to have this functionality??
> 
> Please help!
> 
> Alex

I'll do what I can to help...

Basically you have to learn a different paradigm of programming if you
are coming from SAS.  SAS is designed specially designed for
statistical analysis (although, and I speak of devils here, I have
heard that it is used for data manipulation).  Whereas Python is much
more command driven.

Now Python itself does not have this sort of highlight and submit
functionality, but neither does SAS, rather this was part of the
program you used to develop your SAS.  Python however, is interpreted
and interactive, which means that you don't have to save a program
that you write; and, yes; the syntax checker and compiler will tell
you were the errors are.  This will make more sense once you begin to
understand Python a bit better and have some experience with it.

I'd suggest picking up a beginning Python book that is easier for
people who are learning programming.  Search the archives of this
newsgroup and I'm sure you can find sundry recommendation on books. 
And download ActivePython
(http://www.activestate.com/Products/ActivePython/), which is a very
good beginning.


From mwh at python.net  Thu Aug  5 14:29:05 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 18:29:05 GMT
Subject: psyco out of memory
References: <cetpoc$udc$1@bagan.srce.hr>
Message-ID: <m3acx9tp5b.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Ivan Voras <ivoras at __geri.cc.fer.hr> writes:

> I have this simple *dumb* benchmark-like program:
> 
> #import psyco
> #psyco.full()
> 
> d = 0.0
> for i in xrange(1000000000):
>      d += i
> print d
> 
> I though I'd use it to try out psyco, but no, when I enable the first
> two lines, python core-dumps:
> 
> Fatal Python error: psyco: out of memory
> Abort (core dumped)

Hum.  Are you using the ivm or the x86 backend?

Also, you might have better luck just using range()...

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  ... but I guess there are some things that are so gross you just have
  to forget, or it'll destroy something within you.  perl is the first
  such thing I have known.              -- Erik Naggum, comp.lang.lisp


From justin__devine at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 25 11:30:23 2004
From: justin__devine at hotmail.com (JDevine)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 08:30:23 -0700
Subject: Desperately needing Help with 2 features of a program
Message-ID: <f9d01b73.0408250730.ed28f89@posting.google.com>

Hey.  I posted a info about a program I have written that uses google
to get and download files by type and site.  I need HELP!!!  This
program is finished except for 2 features which, having tried for two
weeks to create I cannot.  This is my first program EVER.  I simply an
stuck.  Please help.  I was allowed by my employer to experiment with
programing / open source.  I'd like to be able to deliver a complete
program, (so I can possibly do more of it soon).  Here are the two
features I need to consider this program complete.
This program uses wxPython.  

1.  Update the label on a radiobox

2.  Create a downlaod status progress bar.  (I guess this has to be
threaded, many attempts led to endless erros about not using the
proper thread to interact with the GUI)

Find Source at http://gobblewin.sourceforge.net

OR

http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=116574&package_id=128018


From iboisver at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 30 03:10:12 2004
From: iboisver at yahoo.com (Ian Boisvert)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 00:10:12 -0700
Subject: PyInstance_New in C++ class factory
Message-ID: <ac3a4856.0408292310.45679c97@posting.google.com>

I'm trying to use PyInstance_New inside of a class factory to create
instances of a class that is defined in Python. I first process some
Python script that contains my class definition using the following
code:

PyObject *codeobj, *module = NULL;
codeobj = Py_CompileString(cscript, "Python script", Py_file_input);
if (codeobj != NULL)
{
	module = PyImport_ExecCodeModule("Python script", codeobj);
	if (module == NULL)
		raiseError();
}
Py_DECREF(module);
Py_DECREF(codeobj);

The call to PyImport_ExecCodeModule executes a module-scope method
that passes a class object back to the C++ code. I hold on to the
class object after incrementing it's reference count and later use it
to create instances of the class using the following code:

// create an instance of the class
PyObject *instance = PyInstance_New(classObject, NULL, NULL);
if (instance == NULL)
	raiseError();

where classObject is the class object that was passed from my Python
code back to C++.

The first time that PyInstance_New is called it works fine. The second
time it is called, it fails. I debugged the code as far as to see that
on the second call, the call to __init__ returns NULL, whereas on the
first call __init__ returns Py_None. The exception message seems to be
bogus as it mentions another method in the class that is never called.

Any suggestions as to why the second call to PyInstance_New doesn't
work would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Ian.


From fred at acme.com  Tue Aug 24 21:05:34 2004
From: fred at acme.com (Fred)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 03:05:34 +0200
Subject: Building basic dialog in Windows?
References: <bp0ni09fofpahse8uoa4l3hdmq5lmi61rr@4ax.com>
	<y8k4v1hb.fsf@python.net>
	<873ni0l3t2opc1bcaqf6vmuusr0sqah4pg@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <m9pni0hdrvvb8ieu58gifesa1935lccv7k@4ax.com>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:49:29 +0200, Fred <nobody at nowhere.com> wrote:
>OK, I'll check it out. It seems like pywin32 is meant for C++
>developers who are already proficient with MFC, and the only
>documentation is pretty much the scripts that comes with the software,
>but I'll try to figure it out and extract what I need.

After comparing the scripts under \Demo, here's how to display a basic
dialog in Windows with PythonWin/PyWin32, with a label, and two
pushbuttons, OK/Cancel. When you click on OK, the text of the label
changes, and the OK button is disabled:

from pywin.mfc import dialog
import win32con

dlgStatic = 130
dlgButton = 128

class Mydialog(dialog.Dialog):
	def OnInitDialog(self):
		rc = dialog.Dialog.OnInitDialog(self)
		return rc
	
	def OnOK(self):
		label=self.GetDlgItem(dlgStatic)
		label.SetWindowText("Text changed")
		button=self.GetDlgItem(win32con.IDOK)
		button.EnableWindow(0)
		
	def OnCancel(self):
		self.Cancel = 1
		self._obj_.OnCancel()

style = (win32con.DS_MODALFRAME |
	win32con.WS_POPUP |
	win32con.WS_VISIBLE |
	win32con.WS_CAPTION |
	win32con.WS_SYSMENU |
	win32con.DS_SETFONT)
cs = win32con.WS_CHILD | win32con.WS_VISIBLE
s = win32con.WS_TABSTOP | cs
w = 184
h = 40

dlg = [["PyWin32",(0, 0, w, h),	style,	None,	(8, "MS Sans
Serif")],]

dlg.append([dlgStatic, "Click on OK", dlgStatic, (7, 5, 69, 9), cs |
win32con.SS_LEFT])
dlg.append([dlgButton, "OK", win32con.IDOK, (7, 20, 50, 14), s |
win32con.BS_DEFPUSHBUTTON])
s = win32con.BS_PUSHBUTTON | s
dlg.append([dlgButton, "Cancel", win32con.IDCANCEL, (124, 20, 50, 14),
s])

d = Mydialog(dlg)
d.DoModal()

My .15E/.20$
Fred.


From roy at panix.com  Fri Aug 13 11:11:02 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:11:02 -0400
Subject: Difference between readlines() and iterating on a file object?
References: <411cd102$1@mail.hmgcc.gov.uk>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408131048520.28036-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <roy-7B6951.11110213082004@reader1.panix.com>

Christopher T King <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote:
> Assuming you don't prematurely exit the for loop or access the file in 
> another manner while looping, both forms should give identical results.  
> Otherwise...

Well, there is a corner case if some external process is writing to the 
file while you're reading it.  The "in file.readlines():" version will 
get a snapshot of the file at the time you read it, while the "in file:" 
version will do a sequence of reads over time.

Not that I think this is what's going on in the OP's case, but it's 
something to be aware of.


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Fri Aug 27 10:12:35 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:12:35 +0200
Subject: my first class: Args
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408271601530.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>


I'm still new to Python. All my experience with OO programming
is in a distant past with C++. Now I have written my first class
in Python. The class behaves exactly as I want, but I would like
to get comments about coding style. I'm especially unsure about
how a class should be documented, what to put in, and where.
When to use double quotes, and when single. For instance, the
doc string at the top must be in double quotes, or else the
pydoc search engine won't find the description. Any
recommendation for other mark-up or meta-data I should include?

I won't tell you what the class is about, because that should be
clear from code documentation. If not, I have work to do. Here
it is:


# -*- coding: iso-8859-1 -*-
"""
Handling of arguments: options, arguments, file(s) content iterator

For small scripts that:
- read some command line options
- read some command line positional arguments
- iterate over all lines of some files given on the command line, or stdin if none given
- give usage message if positional arguments are missing
- give usage message if input files are missing and stdin is not redirected
"""

__author__ = 'Peter Kleiweg'
__version__ = '0.1'
__date__ = '2004/08/27'

import os, sys, getopt

class Args:
    """
    Instance data:
    progname (string) -- name of program
    opt (dictionary) -- options with values
    infile (string) -- name of current file being processed
    lineno (int) -- line number of last line read in current file
    linesum (int) -- total of lines read
    """
    def __init__(self, usage='Usage: %(progname)s [opt...] [file...]') :
        "init, usage string: embed program name as %(progname)s"
        self.progname = os.path.basename(sys.argv[0])
        self.opt = {}
        self.infile = None
        self.lineno = 0
        self.linesum = 0
        self._argv = sys.argv[1:]
        self._argc = len(self._argv)
        self._usage = usage % {'progname': self.progname}

    def __iter__(self):
        "iterator set-up"
        if self._argc == 0 and sys.stdin.isatty():
            self.usage()
        if self._argc == 0:
            self.infile = '<stdin>'
            self._stdin = 1
            self._in = sys.stdin
        else:
            self.infile = self._argv.pop(0)
            self._argc -= 1
            self._stdin = 0
            self._in = open(self.infile, 'r')
        return self

    def next(self):
        "iterator next"
        line = self._in.readline()
        if line:
            self.lineno += 1
            self.linesum += 1
            return line
        self.lineno = -1
        self.infile = None
        if self._stdin:
            raise StopIteration
        self._in.close()
        if self._argc < 1:
            raise StopIteration
        self.lineno = 0
        self.infile = self._argv.pop(0)
        self._argc -= 1
        self._in = open(self.infile, 'r')
        return self.next()

    def warning(self, text):
        "print warning message to stderr, possibly with filename and lineno"
        if self.lineno > 0:
            print >> sys.stderr, '%s:%i: warning: %s' % (self.infile, self.lineno, text)
        else:
            print >> sys.stderr, '\nWarning %s: %s\n' % (self.progname, text)

    def error(self, text):
        "print error message to stderr, possibly with filename and lineno, and exit"
        if self.lineno > 0:
            print >> sys.stderr, '%s:%i: %s' % (self.infile, self.lineno, text)
        else:
            print >> sys.stderr, '\nError %s: %s\n' % (self.progname, text)
        sys.exit(1)

    def usage(self):
        "print usage message"
        print >> sys.stderr, '\n' + self._usage + '\n'
        sys.exit(1)

    def shift(self):
        "pop first of remaining arguments (shift)"
        if self._argc < 1:
            self.usage()
        self._argc -= 1
        return self._argv.pop(0)

    def pop(self):
        "pop last of remaining arguments"
        if self._argc < 1:
            self.usage()
        self._argc -= 1
        return self._argv.pop()

    def getopt(self, shortopts, longopts=[]):
        "get options and merge into dict 'opt'"
        options, self._argv = getopt.getopt(self._argv, shortopts, longopts)
        self.opt.update(dict(options))
        self._argc = len(self._argv)


if __name__ == '__main__':

    a = Args('Usage: %(progname)s [-a value] [-b value] [-c] word [file...]')

    a.opt['-a'] = 'option a'    # set some default option values
    a.opt['-b'] = 'option b'    #
    a.getopt('a:b:c')           # get user supplied option values

    word = a.shift()            # get the first of the remaining arguments
                                # use a.pop() to get the last instead

    for line in a:              # iterate over the contents of all remaining arguments (filenames)
        if a.lineno == 1:
            print 'starting new file:', a.infile
        a.warning(line.rstrip())

    print 'Options:', a.opt
    print 'Word:', word
    print 'Total number of lines:', a.linesum

    print sys.argv              # unchanged

    a.warning('warn 1')         # print a warning
    a.error('error')            # print an error message and exit
    a.warning('warn 2')         # this won't show



-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From ndeskins at ecn.purdue.edu  Mon Aug 16 12:02:09 2004
From: ndeskins at ecn.purdue.edu (Aaron Deskins)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:02:09 -0500
Subject: Newbie question about file input
In-Reply-To: <l4OdnXIFkbhjSL3cRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
References: <cfqj3s$cti$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
	<l4OdnXIFkbhjSL3cRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <cfqlq1$e7h$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>

Thanks to all for the replies. I changed it and it works fine. Now my 
question- what is this convention on indentation? Should all 
indentations be 4 spaces in?

Thanks again.

Peter Hansen wrote:


> 
> Small note: it would make your code more readable and thus
> easier to comment on if you followed convention and used four
> spaces for indentation.  Your volunteer tutors thank you! :-)
> 



-- 
Aaron Deskins
Graduate Student
Chemical Engineering
Purdue University


From Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU  Tue Aug 24 15:15:30 2004
From: Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU (Michael J. Fromberger)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 15:15:30 -0400
Subject: Printing date a file
References: <mailman.2296.1093373725.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Michael.J.Fromberger-EE9923.15153024082004@localhost>

In article <mailman.2296.1093373725.5135.python-list at python.org>,
 Kory Wheatley <wheakorypersonal at yahoo.com> wrote:

> In Python how would you print the date in a file, I
> have a logging program written in python and for each
> new recorded added to the file, I would like to print
> the 
> date, something like this below:
> 
> 08/24/2004 or 08-24-2004
> 

  import time

  print time.strftime("%m/%d/%Y or %m-%d-%Y")

See also:
  http://www.python.org/doc/2.3.4/lib/module-time.html
  

Cheers,
-M

-- 
Michael J. Fromberger             | Lecturer, Dept. of Computer Science
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~sting/  | Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA


From ktilton at nyc.rr.com  Thu Aug 26 23:51:28 2004
From: ktilton at nyc.rr.com (Kenny Tilton)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 03:51:28 GMT
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
In-Reply-To: <87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
Message-ID: <4dyXc.25792$Ot3.22106@twister.nyc.rr.com>



Pascal Bourguignon wrote:

> otto.wyss at orpatec.ch (Otto Wyss) writes:
> 
> 
>>Xah Lee <xah at xahlee.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl.
>>>
>>
>>What you mean with Unixism?
> 
> 
> It's always funny to observe people's contradictions:
>     
>     
>     Last week i bought a chain saw with a
>     twisted handle. Perhaps i wasn't
>     careful, but by accident it chopped one
>     of my arm off, then i thought to myself
>     "gosh, this is POWERFUL!". This seems to
>     be the fashionable mode of thinking
>     among the unixers or unixer-to-be, who
>     would equate power and flexibility with
>     rawness and complexity; disciplined by
>     repeated accidents. Such a tool would
>     first chop off the user's brain, molding
>     a mass of brainless imbeciles and
>     microcephalic charlatans the likes of
>     Larry Wall and Linus Torvald jolly
>     asses. --Xah Lee
> 
> 
> $ telnet xahlee.org 80;
> Trying 208.186.130.4...
> Connected to xahlee.org.
> Escape character is '^]'.
> GET / HTTP/1.1
> 
> HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request
> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:35:52 GMT
> Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

So you like my approach, which is to condemn things they have never used?

:)

kenny

-- 
Cells? Cello? Celtik?: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film



From drconrad at metaplay.com.au  Thu Aug 12 04:58:41 2004
From: drconrad at metaplay.com.au (Simon Wittber)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:58:41 +0800
Subject: {SPAM?} Decorators? Why have a special construct to support a
	pattern?
In-Reply-To: <2WFSc.12148$Nl1.3243@fe1.columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200408120846.i7C8kirv006828@redpill.digitalventures.com.au>

Decorators...

Why do we need a special construct to support a pattern? 

Do lots of people really use decorators that often?

Sw.



From jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl  Wed Aug 18 18:52:22 2004
From: jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl (Jarek Zgoda)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 22:52:22 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<du7wtzwfb8b.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi> <cg0ju9$97s$1@panix3.panix.com>
Message-ID: <cg0mj5$pme$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>

Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> pisze:

>>I'm also optimistic about retiring with Python, because *everyone* is
>>going to retire with Python in 2044 :-).
> 
> 2038

2036

-- 
Jarek Zgoda
http://jpa.berlios.de/


From davidf at sjsoft.com  Fri Aug  6 07:18:38 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 13:18:38 +0200
Subject: advice for perl expert wanting to learn python
In-Reply-To: <slrncguga2.fcp.mordor@fly.srk.fer.hr>
References: <slrncguga2.fcp.mordor@fly.srk.fer.hr>
Message-ID: <cevpef$bku$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

Zeljko Vrba wrote:
> Now, why would I like to learn Python: because of IronPython port to CLR.
> Perl port to CLR doesn't seem to be coming soon. First Perl6 for Parrot has
> to be written, and then other backends..
> 
> What's the easiest way of learning python knowing perl? Is there somewhere
> a 'how-to' cookbook with parallel examples of frequent idioms in perl and
> python?
> 
> And most important thing, how does Python deal with database connectivity?
> Is there a single API (akin to DBI) for connecting to databases?
> 
> How does Python support the following databases:
> - Oracle
> - Postgres
> - MySQL
> - SQLServer (maybe using freetds?)
> - ODBC connectivity (connecting to MS Access)
> 

I have used Oracle, SQLServer and Access via ADO - try adodpapi.sf.net 
which is a wrapper for ADO to the Python DB-API.
But note that you may well not be able to use any of this database stuff 
from IronPython

David


From http  Tue Aug 24 23:03:57 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 20:03:57 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WE
	DONE?
References: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<Xns954E696D4D95Darienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.29>
	<b8ad139e.0408241253.7d807f42@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.2326.1093400946.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <7xvff79aw2.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> writes:
> 'dec' is also going to clash with a lot of code that uses that. That's going
> to be a problem with pretty much any short keyword.

I really am liking J2 less and less.  Even @pie seems more natural.
The best in my opinion is still J4 with no keyword.


From godoy at ieee.org  Wed Aug 18 16:26:19 2004
From: godoy at ieee.org (Jorge Godoy)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:26:19 -0300
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<mailman.1857.1092832475.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<bou6i0hfbrdblmepdpir8b6tkrbaa26h92@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <m38ycc8a6s.fsf@g2ctech.com>

Christos "TZOTZIOY" Georgiou <tzot at sil-tec.gr> writes:

> On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 08:34:08 -0400, rumours say that Jeremy Jones
> <zanesdad at bellsouth.net> might have written:
>
>>Is this a marketing survey?
>>
>>age: 31
>>marital status: married - have 1 wife
>>parental status: 2 children
>>canine status: have 1 dog
>>feline status: 1 cat
>>employment status:  (very) thankfully have a (good) job
>>automobile status: 2 cars
>>sanity status: nearly none
>
> You forgot to give us address and credit card details.  Thanks in
> advance for your reply.

To save time, we also accept your computer's login and password.  We can
get all the details needed without bothering you. ;-)

-- 
Godoy.     <godoy at ieee.org>


From fumanchu at amor.org  Wed Aug 18 01:36:56 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 22:36:56 -0700
Subject: Finding all time periods for a given interval within a
	daterange
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E06@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Tim Churches wrote:
> > > On Thu, 2004-08-05 at 03:09, Robert Brewer wrote:
> > > > Look at my 'recur' module and see if it fits your requirements:
> > > > 
> > > > http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/index.html
> > > > 
> > > > Start with the Recurrence class and play with it--then dig 
> > > deeper if you
> > > > need to.
> > > 
> > > Robert,
> > > 
> > > How is the above code licensed?
> > 
> > Anything on that page is public domain. Use it as you see fit.
> 
> Would you be so kind as it include a note in teh actual code 
> to that effect? Copyright 
> needs to be explicitly waived in most countries these days 
> (unlike previously when 
> copyright needed to be explicitly claimed).

Tim (and anyone else who cares),

Finally got around to it. All code on that page has now been placed in
the public domain.


HTH,

Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Fri Aug  6 12:41:36 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 12:41:36 -0400
Subject: Finding a function name
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1286.1091809014.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA1E@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>
	<mailman.1286.1091809014.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061233480.22622-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Tim Williams wrote:

> How can I find a function's name from within the function?

You can't (yet), in a top-level function at least.  In an object's 
method, you can do this:

 class a(object):
     def foo(self):
         print self.foo.__name__

But that requires you to know the function's name to begin with ;)

Going off on a tangent, this is a case where some sort of reverse function
attributes would be of help:

 def foo(a,b,c):
     .someattr = "something"	# <-- proposed function attribute,
				#     assigned at compile time

     print .someattr, .__name__	# <-- proposed reverse function attribute,
				#     accessed at runtime

But right now there's no such thing in Python.



From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Mon Aug 16 10:46:57 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:46:57 -0400
Subject: Flython
In-Reply-To: <m3llgfmhca.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
References: <slrnchq8lg.q3d.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
	<mailman.1644.1092461737.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408140153500.21775-100000@ccc2.wpi.edu>
	<m3llgfmhca.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408161041590.8576-100000@ccc3.wpi.edu>

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, Michael Hudson wrote:

> Christopher T King <squirrel at WPI.EDU> writes:
> 
> > (Unfortunately, AST trees don't match up exactly with Python grammar, so 
> > I'm having to learn the format by trial-and-error.  Not much fun.  Is 
> > there documentation on the AST forms anywhere?)
> 
> Which AST are you talking about?

Whatever is spit out by parser.suite().  Things like grammar.txt's 
"statement" being represented symbol.stmt, and grammar.txt's stmt_list not 
existing at all in the AST trees (though most/all of the other _lists 
exist).

> Which version of Python, etc?

2.3.  I'm using http://docs.python.org/ref/grammar.txt as my grammar 
reference.

> However, the answer to the "documentation" plea is probably "no".

:(  Is there at least some rationale why the AST trees don't match the 
grammar definitions?



From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 12:33:54 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:33:54 -0400
Subject: Newbie question about file input
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1740.1092673361.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPGENLCDAA.ben@benlast.com>
	<mailman.1740.1092673361.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <HtednQEic-ppfL3cRVn-gA@powergate.ca>

Elcio Ferreira wrote:
>>while 1:
>>  line = zf.readline()
>>  if not line:
>>    break
> 
> 
> Newbie's question:
> 
> Isn't it a strange way to do a loop? Create a loop with a foo
> condition and use an if to break it?

It's a little unusual compared to many other languages, but
Python often tries to have only one obvious way to do something.
Other languages have two or three or even more different ways
to do 'while' style loops, while Python has only one.  The
downside, if you want to think of it as such, is that idioms
like the above can seem a little "off".

On the other hand, perhaps once you've coded Python for a while
you will start to feel that the above is quite straightforward
and flows from your fingers pretty easily, because you don't
have to stop and think of _which_ of the available loops
you should use.

> =====
> line=zf.readline()
> while line:
>     . . .
>     line=zf.readline()
> =====
> 
> Isn't this code much more easy to understand?

Perhaps... but less maintainable.  Duplication is almost
always a bad thing in programming, and the above is prone
to various kinds of errors, especially if you or someone else
goes back to change the code in the future.

It is possible with Python to restructure things like the
above to be both readable and maintainable, either by using
classes or, more recently, with generators:

def readlines(f):
     while 1:
         line = f.readline()
         if not line:
             break
         yield line

then in the rest of your code you can just do this:

for line in readlines(zf):
     # do something with line...

Of course, the "file" object now allows this natively, so
you don't even have to write the above, but the point is
that if you don't like the "while 1:/test/break" idiom,
there are alternatives.

-Peter


From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Fri Aug 20 14:03:06 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:03:06 +0200
Subject: Decorator keyword options - brainstorming
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2057.1093014715.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2057.1093014715.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2omsj9Fcej95U1@uni-berlin.de>

David Vaughan wrote:
> Paul McGuire wrote:
>> I'd say that something like "gerbil" should be right out! 
> 
> I don't know - it sounds fun.  I vote:
> 
> SpanishInquisition:
>     staticmethod
> def foo():
>     pass
> 
> The guys at python-dev won't be expecting that one :)
> But seriously, there must be something literally pythonic we could
> propose.

How about

pythonic:
    staticmethod
def foo():
    pass

?

Reinhold

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From beliavsky at aol.com  Wed Aug  4 08:47:18 2004
From: beliavsky at aol.com (beliavsky at aol.com)
Date: 4 Aug 2004 05:47:18 -0700
Subject: Can somebody help me ?
References: <9f6a3388.0408031923.11cfa62d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <3064b51d.0408040447.767016f4@posting.google.com>

patrick.schaeffler at siemens.com (Patrick) wrote in message news:<9f6a3388.0408031923.11cfa62d at posting.google.com>...
> Hi,
> 
> I managed to open a msaccess database with python.

You can help us by using an informative title such as "Open MSAccess
with Python?" instead of the generic "Can somebody help me?"


From DesertLinux at netscape.net  Sat Aug 21 09:49:57 2004
From: DesertLinux at netscape.net (Byron)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 13:49:57 GMT
Subject: Files in unix and windows
In-Reply-To: <1pIVc.8678$3O3.1751@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408201440270.4916-100000@pc64.cs.ucdavis.edu>
	<1pIVc.8678$3O3.1751@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <9qIVc.8680$3O3.3996@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>

Opps, correction.  "\t" is for <tab> -- I had the slash going the wrong 
direction.

Byron
---


Byron wrote:

> Hi Travis,
> 
> You want to use forward slashes with your file names.  Backslashes are 
> used for special character commands, such as "/t" for <tab>, etc.
> 
>     For Windows:
>     c:/aFolder/testDocument.txt
> 
>     For Unix / Linux
>     /aFolder/testDocument.txt
> 
>     If you need a relative path, with no drive specified (for Windows), 
> use:
>     /aFolder/testDocument.txt
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Byron
> ---
> 
> 
> Travis James Kleeburg wrote:
> 
>> I am trying to copy files from one directory into another using 
>> shutil.copy. I am having a problem getting a usable path using 
>> os.path.abspath because it doesnt return a string with the extra 
>> backslashes and i was wondering if there was a better system call to 
>> use? I am also looking for a system call so there wont be a problem 
>> between windows and unix.
>>
>>


From skip at pobox.com  Fri Aug 20 00:42:52 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:42:52 -0500
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <16677.33100.737566.729771@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Paul> I would propose a multivote survey: each poster gets 3 votes among
    Paul> the lettered choices on the Wiki page above.  You can use all 3
    Paul> for a single option, or split them across 2 or 3 options if you
    Paul> are open to more than one.

C1 C1 J2

Skip


From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Sat Aug 28 14:25:36 2004
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:25:36 -0700
Subject: my first class: Args
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408271601530.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408271601530.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <4130cf9d@nntp0.pdx.net>

Peter Kleiweg wrote:
 > I'm still new to Python. All my experience with OO programming
 > is in a distant past with C++. Now I have written my first class
 > in Python. The class behaves exactly as I want, but I would like
 > to get comments about coding style.

I like: "look at a coding standard (PEP 8), then vary for clarity."
	<http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0008.html>

 > ... when to use double quotes, and when single.
I generally prefer single a lot of places since typefaces sometimes make
it hard to tell the difference between a pair of singles and a double.

Here is a lot of blue pencil.  Don't consider that a rip of your code.
Don't consider me correct, see each change and decide for yourself
which way is clearer.  One thing I use here several places is the
"try and fail, don't ask permission" -- a pythonic style.

> I won't tell you what the class is about, 
Ah, but everyone has a context in which they read code.

> """
> Handling of arguments: options, arguments, file(s) content iterator
^^ Try "Demonstrate use of arguments..." (a verb helps).
... <keepers>

> class Args:
>     """
^^ Here put a line about what the class is about:
   Source provision for numbered lines with (possibly) multiple inputs.

... <keepers>

>         self._argv = sys.argv[1:]
>         self._argc = len(self._argv)
^^ I'd forego _argc altogether and use len(self._argv) where needed.
>         self._usage = usage % {'progname': self.progname}
^^ I'd wait to do this in the usage method -- no need for it normally
           self._usage = usage

>     def __iter__(self):
>         "iterator set-up"
^^ useless docstring -- presume the reader knows python
>         if self._argc == 0 and sys.stdin.isatty():
>             self.usage()
>         if self._argc == 0:
>             self.infile = '<stdin>'
>             self._stdin = 1
>             self._in = sys.stdin
>         else:
>             self.infile = self._argv.pop(0)
>             self._argc -= 1
>             self._stdin = 0
>             self._in = open(self.infile, 'r')
>         return self
^^
          try:
              self.infile = self._argv.pop(0)
          except IndexError:
              if sys.stdin.isatty():
                  self.usage()  # Doesn't return
              else:
                  self.infile = '<stdin>'
                  self._stdin = True
                  self._in = sys.stdin
          else:
              self._stdin = False
              self._in = open(self.infile, 'r')
          return self

> 
>     def next(self):
>         "iterator next"
^^ again -- skip the comment unless you say more than the language does.
Maybe: "get another line, possibly going to another file for it"
>         line = self._in.readline()
>         if line:
>             self.lineno += 1
>             self.linesum += 1
>             return line
>         self.lineno = -1
>         self.infile = None
>         if self._stdin:
>             raise StopIteration
>         self._in.close()
>         if self._argc < 1:
>             raise StopIteration
>         self.lineno = 0
>         self.infile = self._argv.pop(0)
>         self._argc -= 1
>         self._in = open(self.infile, 'r')
>         return self.next()
^^ Loop rather than recur unless you have a good reason.

           while True:
              line = self._in.readline()
              if line:
                  self.lineno += 1
                  self.linesum += 1
                  return line

              # Look for a source of more lines
              if self._stdin:
                  assert not self._argv # stdin is not part of a list
                  break

              self._in.close()
              try:
                  self.infile = self._argv.pop(0)
              except IndexError:
                  break # No more files
              self.lineno = 0
              self._in = open(self.infile, 'r')

          self.lineno = -1
          self.infile = None
          raise StopIteration

> 
>     def warning(self, text):
>         "print warning message to stderr, possibly with filename and lineno"
>         if self.lineno > 0:
>             print >> sys.stderr, '%s:%i: warning: %s' % (self.infile, self.lineno, text)
>         else:
>             print >> sys.stderr, '\nWarning %s: %s\n' % (self.progname, text)
> 
^^ these lines look a bit long.  Consider:
          if self.lineno > 0:
              print >>sys.stderr, '%s:%i: warning: %s' % (
                                    self.infile, self.lineno, text)
          else:
              print >>sys.stderr, '\nWarning %s: %s\n' % (
                                          self.progname, text)

or even consider:
     def error(self, text, fatal=True):
         if fatal:
             style = 'Error'
         else:
             style = 'Warning'
         if self.lineno > 0:
             print >>sys.stderr, '%s:%i: %s:' % (
                                  self.infile, self.lineno, style),
         else:
             print >>sys.stderr, '\n%s %s:' % (style, self.progname),
         print >>sys.stderr, text
         if fatal:
             sys.exit(1) # or even: raise SystemExit

Where warnings look like:   obj.error(msg, fatal=False)

>     def usage(self):
>         "print usage message"
>         print >> sys.stderr, '\n' + self._usage + '\n'
>         sys.exit(1)
^^ As mentioned above:

      def usage(self):
          "print usage message and leave"
          print >> sys.stderr,
          print >> sys.stderr, self._usage % {'progname': self.progname}
          print >> sys.stderr,
          sys.exit(1)

> 
>     def shift(self):
>         "pop first of remaining arguments (shift)"
>         if self._argc < 1:
>             self.usage()
>         self._argc -= 1
>         return self._argv.pop(0)
^^ becomes:
      def shift(self):
          "pop first of remaining arguments (shift)"
          try:
              return self._argv.pop(0)
          except IndexError:
              self.usage()

> 
>     def pop(self):
>         "pop last of remaining arguments"
>         if self._argc < 1:
>             self.usage()
>         self._argc -= 1
>         return self._argv.pop()
^^ becomes:
      def pop(self):
          "pop last of remaining arguments"
          try:
              return self._argv.pop()
          except IndexError:
              self.usage()

>     def getopt(self, shortopts, longopts=[]):
>         "get options and merge into dict 'opt'"
>         options, self._argv = getopt.getopt(self._argv, shortopts, longopts)
>         self.opt.update(dict(options))

>         self._argc = len(self._argv)
^^ As I've said, I'd drop this one


> if __name__ == '__main__':
 >     ...
^^ also nicer to be able to test from included version:

def demo():
     ...

if __name__ == '__main__':
     demo()


From johnfkeeling at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  3 04:19:49 2004
From: johnfkeeling at yahoo.com (John Keeling)
Date: 3 Aug 2004 01:19:49 -0700
Subject: Timing Difference: insert vs. append & reverse
References: <35b736b9.0408020330.53b24ed3@posting.google.com><Xns953983065EEC6duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>	<35b736b9.0408021152.4c1ab752@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1076.1091495016.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <35b736b9.0408030019.27f212d9@posting.google.com>

It is so cool to be able to get the disassembly
so easily.... thanks v. much Terry.
Cheers,
John
> >>> import dis
> >>> dis.dis(ldel)
>           0 SET_LINENO               1
>
>           3 SET_LINENO               2
>           6 LOAD_FAST                0 (lisp)
>           9 LOAD_FAST                1 (index)
>          12 DELETE_SUBSCR
>          13 LOAD_CONST               0 (None)
>          16 RETURN_VALUE


From jjl at pobox.com  Thu Aug 26 15:24:36 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 20:24:36 +0100
Subject: waiting for html to load:  a followup
References: <mAoXc.19$HM.4573@news.uswest.net>
Message-ID: <sma9em8b.fsf@pobox.com>

Josh <joshl at commenspace.org> writes:
[...]
> Anyway, I decided to forget IE and I am now trying to use urllib2 to
> open up the page, read it, etc.  My problem is the page has a built-in
> refresh and I don't know how to have python re-read the page until
> it's ready to hand over the links.
> 
> An example of the page is:
> http://edcw2ks23.cr.usgs.gov/Website/zipship/waiting.jsp?areaList=49.0,47.0,-122.0,-124.08&prodList=NED,

Example, with some debugging turned on so you can see some of what's
going on:

import ClientCookie
opener = ClientCookie.build_opener(
    ClientCookie.HTTPRefreshProcessor(max_time=None),
    ClientCookie.HTTPResponseDebugProcessor(),
    ClientCookie.HTTPRedirectDebugProcessor(),
    )
ClientCookie.getLogger("ClientCookie").setLevel(ClientCookie.DEBUG)

r = opener.open('http://edcw2ks23.cr.usgs.gov/Website/zipship/waiting.jsp?areaList=49.0,47.0,-122.0,-124.08&prodList=NED,')
f = open('out.html', 'w')
f.write(r.read())


Don't mix ClientCookie and urllib2, BTW.


John


From otto.wyss at orpatec.ch  Thu Aug 26 17:01:47 2004
From: otto.wyss at orpatec.ch (Otto Wyss)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 23:01:47 +0200
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>

Xah Lee <xah at xahlee.org> wrote:

> this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl.
> 
What you mean with Unixism?

O. Wyss

-- 
How to enhance your code, see "http://freshmeat.net/projects/wxguide/"


From steve at ferg.org  Tue Aug 24 12:12:33 2004
From: steve at ferg.org (Stephen Ferg)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 09:12:33 -0700
Subject: advice for perl expert wanting to learn python
References: <slrncguga2.fcp.mordor@fly.srk.fer.hr>
Message-ID: <b16e4ef7.0408240812.1846c9f8@posting.google.com>

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Martin Brown's book "Perl to Python
Migration".

The reviews indicate that although it has a lot of typos it is useful.

Also, cheap.  You can get a used copy for $2.50 (plus shipping) from
Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0201734885/qid=1093363660/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-2726742-5722424?v=glance&s=books


From heikowu at ceosg.de  Tue Aug 10 08:34:39 2004
From: heikowu at ceosg.de (Heiko Wundram)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:34:39 +0200
Subject: Multiple inheritance with a common base class
In-Reply-To: <1092140345.2624.28.camel@dicaprio.akademie1.de>
References: <1092137872.2624.16.camel@dicaprio.akademie1.de>
	<1092140345.2624.28.camel@dicaprio.akademie1.de>
Message-ID: <200408101434.39622.heikowu@ceosg.de>

Am Dienstag, 10. August 2004 14:19 schrieb Markus Bertheau:
> ? ???, 10.08.2004, ? 13:37, Markus Bertheau ?????:
>
> Also I observe that the instance will in fact _not_ have a single copy
> of the data attributes used by the common base class. The following
> example demonstrates this:

No, this example doesn't demonstrate this, rather, you can't read your code 
correctly... ;-) Let's look at the oder at which the commands are executed.

class Multi(LeafA, LeafB):
    def __init__(self):
        LeafA.__init__(self)

---> Call into LeafA.__init__...

class LeafA(CommonBase):
    def __init__(self):
        CommonBase.__init__(self)

---> Call into CommonBase.__init__

class CommonBase:
    def __init__(self):
        self.no = 0

---> Set self.no to zero.

        print("CommonBase.no: %i" % self.no)

---> Print self.no (zero)

        CommonBase.setNo(self, 3)

---> Call into CommonBase.setNo

class CommonBase:
    def setNo(self, no):
        self.no = no

---> Set self.no to three.

        LeafB.__init__(self)

---> Call into LeafB.__init__

class LeafB(CommonBase):
    def __init__(self):
        CommonBase.__init__(self)

---> Call into CommonBase.__init__

class CommonBase:
    def __init__(self):
        self.no = 0

---> (Re)set self.no to zero.

        print("CommonBase.no: %i" % self.no)

---> Print self.no (zero)

        CommonBase.setNo(self, 4)

---> Call into CommonBase.setNo

class CommonBase:
    def setNo(self, no):
        self.no = no

---> Set self.no to four

Does this explain what is happening, and why multiple inheritence doesn't work 
as you expect it to (rather, you have to be real careful about it?).

Heiko.


From p_s_oberoi at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  6 17:13:49 2004
From: p_s_oberoi at hotmail.com (Paramjit Oberoi)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 16:13:49 -0500
Subject: Plotting histograms, scatter plots in Python
References: <d1f3d1d3.0408061018.137b600f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.06.21.13.49.266713@hotmail.com>

> What is the easiest way to generate some plots and graphs in Python ?

Pychart:
http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Yasushi_Saito/pychart/


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Thu Aug 19 12:41:17 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:41:17 -0500
Subject: Merging pdf documents with Python
References: <mailman.1965.1092927979.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <xo6dnS5Rx5GxRbncRVn-tg@comcast.com>

ReportLab has a product (not free) called PageCatcher
that provides this capability.  I've used it in
several projects and it works perfectly.

HTH,
Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.

"Daryl Middleton" <dmidd at chartermi.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.1965.1092927979.5135.python-list at python.org...
> Can python be used to merge pdf documents into a single pdf file so that I
> do not have to manually insert each one. Thanks
>




From brianc at temple.edu  Mon Aug  2 16:30:44 2004
From: brianc at temple.edu (brianc at temple.edu)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:30:44 -0400
Subject: module timeit and variable scope
Message-ID: <a115b3f9.69b7f02b.829df00@po-d.temple.edu>

>1. What are the advantages of using timeit compared to using
>time.time() or time.clock()? (on Mac OS X)
It's more accurate when timing very small bits of code. Though
I don't know a thing about Max OS X.

>2. How do I introduce a variable into the timeit.Timer? For
example I
>have a class Foo:
Just create an instance in the setup portion of the Timer.
t=timeit.Timer('foo.run()','from __main__ import Foo; foo=Foo()')
To just test __init__ of your class:
t=timeit.Timer('Foo()','from __main__ import Foo')

Setup only runs once.

-Brian

---- Original message ----
>Date: 2 Aug 2004 10:40:24 -0700
>From: fortepianissimo at gmail.com (fortepianissimo)  
>Subject: module timeit and variable scope  
>To: python-list at python.org
>
>A couple questions about using timeit to record the CPU time
consumed
>by an instance method:
>
>
>2. How do I introduce a variable into the timeit.Timer? For
example I
>have a class Foo:
>
>class Foo:
>  def __init__ (self):
>    # the following line didn't work because the scope is not
>    #   the calling function
>    # self._timer = timeit.Timer(stmt='self.run(bar)')
>    pass
>
>  def someMethod (self, bar):
>    print bar
>
>  def run (self, bar):
>    # call self.someMethod(bar) and record time using
>    #   self._timer
>    pass
>
>
>and I want to record the CPU time consumed by someMethod in
method
>run(), using the timer initialized in __init__(). The reason
to set up
>the timer in __init__ is to avoid overhead of setting up the same
>timer time and time again in run().
>
>Thank you.
>-- 
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From opengeometry at yahoo.ca  Sun Aug  1 03:16:03 2004
From: opengeometry at yahoo.ca (William Park)
Date: 1 Aug 2004 07:16:03 GMT
Subject: (patch for Bash) try-block and exception
References: <2n27jlFsb5njU1@uni-berlin.de> <2n2bapFs3oqbU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<m3vfg3mrc4.fsf@newsguy.com>
Message-ID: <2n3jliFrvv9dU1@uni-berlin.de>

In <comp.lang.python> Harry Putnam <reader at newsguy.com> wrote:
> William Park <opengeometry at yahoo.ca> writes:
> 
> >> Ref:
> >>     http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/
> >>     help try
> >>     help raise
> 
> This link doesn't appear to lead to a `download' option..

It's two step dance.
    first, http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/
    then, http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/index.html#bash	(homepage)
    then, http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/bash.diff

Next feature I'll tackle is list comprehension.  :-)

-- 
William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, <opengeometry at yahoo.ca>
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


From martin at v.loewis.de  Sun Aug 22 11:15:20 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 17:15:20 +0200
Subject: unicodedata name for \u000a
In-Reply-To: <ufz6f2sue.fsf@broadpark.no>
References: <mailman.2120.1093116249.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408212145180.1131-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<u8yc7mu4i.fsf@broadpark.no>
	<412869bf$0$24814$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<ufz6f2sue.fsf@broadpark.no>
Message-ID: <4128B888.9010400@v.loewis.de>

Tor Iver Wilhelmsen wrote:
> Then why not return None or the empty string instead of raising an
> exception?

Why does a dictionary lookup raise a KeyError instead of returning
None or an empty exception? It's easy enough to add a function that
does what you want:

  def name(c):
    try:
      return unicodedata.name
    except ValueError:
      return None

Python reports failures through exceptions, not through special
return values. It might have been an option initially to return
None. Now, it cannot be changed for backwards compatibility.

Regards,
Martin


From bhoel at web.de  Wed Aug 18 16:44:50 2004
From: bhoel at web.de (Berthold Höllmann)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 22:44:50 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<2ohr0nFakl4sU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <m2oel889bx.fsf@pchoel.psh>

Cousin Stanley <cousinstanley at hotmail.com> writes:

> On 2004-08-18, Lucas Raab <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> | One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age 
> | of a Python programmer ?? 
> |
> | What age groups use Python ?? 
> |
> | Something to think about....
>
>>>> import time
>>>>
>>>> tup_lt = time.localtime()
>>>>
>>>> now_yr = tup_lt[ 0 ]
>>>> now_mo = tup_lt[ 1 ]
>>>> now_da = tup_lt[ 2 ]
>>>>
>>>> dob_yr = 1946
>>>> dob_mo = 8
>>>> dob_da = 9
>>>>
>>>> dy     = now_yr - dob_yr
>>>> dm     = now_mo - dob_mo
>>>> dd     = now_da - dob_da
>>>>
>>>> print '\n    %d Years .... %d Months .... %d Days .... Old \n' % ( dy , dm , dd )
>
>     58 Years .... 0 Months .... 9 Days .... Old
>

For me it's

...
>>> dob_yr = 1966
>>> dob_mo = 8
>>> dob_da = 18
...
>>> print '\n    %d Years .... %d Months .... %d Days .... Old \n' % ( dy , dm , dd )
 
    38 Years .... 0 Months .... 0 Days .... Old 

>>> 

Programming since more than 20 Years. UCSD Pascal on Apple //e and
//c, FORTRAN, C, C++ and Python since more than 76 Years.

Regards
Berthold
-- 
bhoel at web.de / http://starship.python.net/crew/bhoel/


From richardshea at fastmail.fm  Fri Aug 20 04:23:43 2004
From: richardshea at fastmail.fm (Richard Shea)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 01:23:43 -0700
Subject: pyXLWriter - cancel previous question
Message-ID: <282f826a.0408200023.2eef965a@posting.google.com>

Hi - After I posted "pyXLWriter - simple example code ?" I wrote to
Evgeny Filatov (the writer of pyXLWriter) and he has very kindly
pointed me in the right direction for examples etc (the Win32.zip
download of pyXLWriter doesn't have the example code which the other
download does). So feel free to post your examples, I'd be interested
to see them but I've got what I needed to get me started.

regards

richard.


From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu  Mon Aug 16 21:38:01 2004
From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Daniel Yoo)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 01:38:01 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<411C8CD9.32F39C2@mega-nerd.com>
Message-ID: <cfrnhp$1fol$1@agate.berkeley.edu>


:> Python needs drastic performance improvement if it is to scrap-off the
:> "scripting language" stigma. The only way to get these improvements is
:> making it possible for a python implementation to produce *efficient*
:> *compiled* code. At the same time the dynamic-typing nature of the
:> language is one of its most valuable characteristics. And this is one
:> of the hardest problems when trying to write a decent python
:> compiler. If you define a function like:
:> 
:>   def sum (a, b):
:>     return a + b
:> 
:> How can the compiler know what code to produce? 

: I know of at least one language which has solved this problem, Ocaml


I'm not quite sure if this is true.  In contrast to Python, a lot of
the type information in OCaml is attached to the operators.  This is
to make the type-inferencing work efficiently.  For example, OCaml's
addition operator is hardcoded to work with integers:

(******)
[dyoo at shoebox dyoo]$ ocaml
        Objective Caml version 3.07+2

# (+) ;;
- : int -> int -> int = <fun>
(******)



and there's a separate operator for adding floats to floats:

(*** OCaml ***)
# ( +. );;
- : float -> float -> float = <fun>
(******)



Python's dynamic lookup of module-level symbols also make things more
difficult than in Ocaml.  In OCaml, names that are bound stay bound:

(*** OCaml ***)
# let x = 42;;
# let say_x () = print_endline (string_of_int x);;
val say_x : unit -> unit = <fun>
# say_x ();;
42
- : unit = ()
# let x = "hello";;
val x : string = "hello"
# say_x ();;
42
- : unit = ()
(******)


Note, again, that the OCaml operators and functions are often
themselves typed to make type-inference work.  This may make things
slightly verbose again.  I could be wrong, but I couldn't find a
simple, generic, "print" function that could print any value in OCaml.


In this example, the say_x function keeps a record of all the name
bindings from before, which is why it remembers the original binding
for 'x'.  This is just fundamentally different from the "late binding"
approach using in Python:

### Python ###
>>> x = 42
>>> def say_x():
...     print x
...
>>> say_x()
42
>>> x = "hello"
>>> say_x()
hello
###


So I'm not so sure that Python's current design makes type-inference
easy.  I'm pretty sure it's a little harder than just yanking out
OCaml's type-inference engine and jury-rigging it into Python.  *grin*


From follower at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 23:46:06 2004
From: follower at gmail.com (Follower)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 20:46:06 -0700
Subject: Python script to generate static site?
References: <hl5lh0pb3u4m47f2bsatc9vigrv7pc7v07@4ax.com>
	<mailman.1565.1092327610.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<hnsnh0p0elbr9j3qbtkmr4t9hihp70n46r@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3c18c08f.0408121946.2a92f827@posting.google.com>

I like PubTal because it produces static pages from Zope Page
Templates (ZPT), which I like as an approach:

  <http://www.owlfish.com/software/PubTal/>

Recent versions have intelligent FTP upload too.

ZPT has a learning curve, but is quite nice (and scalable upwards to a
fully dynamic solution in future if you need that).

--Phil.


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 03:15:43 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:15:43 +0200
Subject: Python Cookbook Second Edition call for submissions
Message-ID: <1gj4cc5.5fx9u41j5hkpeN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Greetings, fellow Pythonistas!

We (Alex Martelli, David Ascher and Anna Martelli Ravenscroft) are in
the process of selecting recipes for the Second Edition of the Python
Cookbook.  Please contribute your recipes (code and discussion), along
with comments on and ratings of existing recipes, to the cookbook site,
http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python , and do it *now*!

The Python Cookbook is a collaborative collection of your contributions
to Python lore, with code available for use and review at
http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python .  ActiveState and
O'Reilly Media provide resources to publish selected recipes from this
collection -- selected, edited, and organized into chapters, each of
which starts with an essay by an expert in the chapter's topic -- into a
book titled (duh!) "Python Cookbook".

The First Edition of "Python Cookbook" appeared in 2002, is still in
print (selling well), and has met with the kind of sales and review
success you all deserved, as a unique book with over 200 recipes by over
100 authors on all sorts of topics relevant to Python versions from
1.5.2 to 2.2.  Nevertheless, Python has grown in important ways since
then, and deserves an encore: the Second Edition of "Python Cookbook"
will appear in 2005 and will focus strictly on Python 2.3 and 2.4.

Please contribute to the cookbook site *now* for your submissions to be
considered for publication.  We especially like recipes that include
relevant discussion (not just code), and we're biased in favour of
recipes "showing off" specific techniques in code snippets (rather than
large, complete programs).  Useful comments can also qualify you for the
coveted "contributor" status.

We're particularly interested in materials based on the new features of
Python 2.4 -- Python 2.4 (alpha 2 at the time of this writing) is
currently available for download at www.python.org, so, get going:
download it, install it, try it out, and submit recipes based on it!

As was done for the First Edition, contributors whose recipes and
comments we use in the book will receive a complimentary copy of the
Second Edition, and a portion of all royalties will go to the non-profit
Python Software Foundation. As for the First Edition, recipes to be
included in the Second Edition should be licensed under the modified
Berkeley license, making them candidates for inclusion in a future
Python distribution.


Submission deadlines (for possible publication in the Second Edition):

Materials based on Python 2.3: Saturday, September 4, 2004
Materials specific to Python 2.4: Saturday, September 25, 2004



Alex


From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Mon Aug 16 01:31:44 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:31:44 -0700
Subject: Python secure?
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<411ffef6$0$65603$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<roy-F5E2AB.20545315082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<41200b23$0$8090$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<roy-367FC1.21485515082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <aft5v1-a26.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

Roy Smith wrote:
> The OP was asking if Python offered a way to prevent disclosure of his
> source code.  The statement was made that copyright laws would protect
> him.

Copyright laws are also the major prevention of disclosure.  Additionally
they are a basis of getting redress should there be a disclosure.  Those
laws also apply no matter what language and platform are used.

> Protecting the code prevents theft.  IP laws only give you a basis for
> legal action after the code is stolen.

Deliberately obfsucating the code (or just using C :-) will only stop
rank amateurs.  Your (valid) opinion is roughly the same as saying
that your car alarm/security just needs to be better than the other
cars parked around it in order to discourage people going after yours.

The difference here is that software isn't interchangable.  Someone
who wants to break into the OP's software won't be stopped by obfuscation
and decide to go after a word processor instead.

And software doesn't require you to be physically local in the same
way as real property theft requires.  It is also not detectable that
the code has been recovered, whereas your silverware disappearing is :-)

Roger 




From kamikaze at kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu  Mon Aug  2 15:22:36 2004
From: kamikaze at kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 19:22:36 GMT
Subject: Percentage matching of text
References: <1678860800.20040730075239@MailBlocks.com>
	<mailman.958.1091195562.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrncgt53s.1i2k.kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu>

Bruce Eckel <BruceEckel at MailBlocks.com>
wrote on Fri, 30 Jul 2004 07:52:39 -0600:
> Background: for the 4th edition of Thinking in Java, I'm trying to
> once again improve the testing scheme for the examples in the book. I
> want to verify that the output I show in the book is "reasonably
> correct." I say "Reasonably" because a number of examples produce
> random numbers or text or the time of day or in general things that do
> not repeat themselves from one execution to the next. So, much of the
> text will be the same between the "control sample" and the "test
> sample," but some of it will be different.
>
> I will be using Python or Jython for the test framework.
>
> What I'd like to do is find an algorithm that produces the results of
> a text comparison as a percentage-match. Thus I would be able to
> assert that my test samples must match the control sample by at least
> (for example) 83% for the test to pass. Clearly, this wouldn't be a
> perfect test but it would help flag problems, which is primarily what
> I need.
>
> Does anyone know of an algorithm or library that would do this? Thanks
> in advance.

  Here's an outside-the-box solution: set the random number seed and use
a fixed date in your tests.  Now you can test fixed values, even though
the application is "random".

-- 
 <a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"Virtues foster one another; so too, vices.
 Bad English kills trees, consumes energy, and befouls the Earth.
 Good English renews it." -The Underground Grammarian, v1n2


From amk at amk.ca  Sat Aug  7 17:53:18 2004
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 16:53:18 -0500
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu> <cf3b56$gt6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>
	<cf3cvt$d3i$1@namru.matavnet.hu>
Message-ID: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>

On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 22:20:31 +0200, 
	Mikl?s <nospam at nowhere.hu> wrote:
> Yes, this was exactly my point. Performance and GIL. Those are problems.
> And problems must be solved.  

Problems for who?  I have no problems with Python's performance in my
applications.  I avoid threads because they're error-prone, so the GIL
doesn't affect me.  

Free software projects are run by the people who actually contribute code.
If sorted() and reversed() were added, it's because Raymond Hettinger
actually wrote code to implement them, and GvR didn't dislike them.  If
people who want decorators are willing to expend effort to implement them,
test them, conform to the coding standard, then they can be considered for
inclusion.  So, if you want to see the GIL fixed, or performance
improvements made, you have to work on these problems.

--amk


From wweston at att.net  Thu Aug 19 13:59:41 2004
From: wweston at att.net (wes weston)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:59:41 GMT
Subject: get last two in a length of unknown length?
In-Reply-To: <cg1494$lvr$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>
References: <cg1494$lvr$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <hU5Vc.478755$Gx4.257516@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>

M. Clift wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I have a list of varying length. Would someone know the way to get the last
> two values for this? I can see how this is done with a list that I know the
> length of, but not one thats generated by user input.
> 
> Thanks for any help
> 
> 
M,
    Note this, maybe, unexpected behavior:

 >>> list=[1]
 >>> list[-2:]
[1]

 >>> list = []
 >>> list[-2:0]
[]

wes



From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Mon Aug  9 20:49:13 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 17:49:13 -0700
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar, but for what exactly?
In-Reply-To: <m2isbtlitv.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
References: <mailman.1352.1091953503.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<m2u0vdj1bn.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
	<Xns953F91E18B19Fduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
	<m2isbtlitv.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
Message-ID: <10hg6rf5ck639cd@corp.supernews.com>

Dan Sommers wrote:

>>>On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 18:24:58 +1000,
>>>Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>In many cases, these new features actually lead to smaller, simpler
>>>>code. I challenge _anyone_ to tell me that
>>>>apply(func, args, kwargs) 
>>>>is better than 
>>>>func(*args, **kwargs)
>>>>        
>>>>

>When I see f( x ), I think that f is a function bound by def (or an
>extremely close relative, such as class or staticmethod), and that I can
>grep for it somewhere, either in the source code or the library
>reference.  I also think, rightly or wrongly, that f *was* bound,
>*before* I needed it, and *does not change over time*.
>
>When I see apply( f, x ), I think that f varies over time, and is some
>sort of a callback or plugin or whatever, and is *not* the name of an
>actual function bound by def.  
>

Um, I think you're missing the point, here.  The apply() has nothing to 
do with whether func() is bound by def or by assignment -- both cases 
given here are intended to allow the easy passing of variable argument 
lists to functions.

In other words, you're thinking of calling a function through a function 
pointer, but what's actually being shown is passing a pointer to a 
parameter struct.  The old style requires a separate function [apply()] 
to be called that dereferences the parameter struct and feeds parameters 
to the called function one-by-one, while the new style dereferences the 
parameter struct in-place.

If you're going to compare this to any real C/C++ construct, it's much 
closer to the issue of (C) pass-by-pointer vs. (C++) pass-by-reference 
syntax, but even that's a really distant stretch.

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From bart_nessux at hotmail.com  Wed Aug  4 09:39:33 2004
From: bart_nessux at hotmail.com (Bart Nessux)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 09:39:33 -0400
Subject: Perl's Crypt::PasswdMD5
Message-ID: <ceqoul$ept$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>

Does Python have anything similar to Perl's Crypt::PasswdMD5???

I read about the crypt module... but it only does DES. Any plans to add 
md5 or other digests to it in the future?


From insert at spam.here  Tue Aug 31 12:32:04 2004
From: insert at spam.here (Doug Holton)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:32:04 -0500
Subject: GUI Designer
In-Reply-To: <wU0Zc.9845$7i2.529166@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <wU0Zc.9845$7i2.529166@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <yKadnRd9LtSYNancRVn-vQ@comcast.com>

A.M wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Do we have any OpenSource GUI designer for Python ?

It depends on whether you are running Windows or Linux/Mac, and what GUI 
toolkit you want to use (wxpython, qt, gtk, tkinter, windows.forms, etc.).

If you are on Linux, a good GUI builder you might try is QT Designer. 
There is a Windows version, too, but you only use it for non-commercial 
development.  See http://developers.coedit.net/QtKde

On Windows, wxpython is the better GUI toolkit, but I don't use any of 
the GUI builders for it.

If you want to check out bleeding edge stuff, see the IronPython 
(http://ironpython.com/) or boo (http://boo.codehaus.org/) languages for 
.NET and Mono.  You can use the Windows.Forms or GTK# GUI toolkits. 
They still aren't well integrated with GUI builders (like Glade or 
Visual Studio) though.


From JBrouwersAtProphICyDotCom at no.spam.net  Sat Aug  7 21:50:42 2004
From: JBrouwersAtProphICyDotCom at no.spam.net (Jean Brouwers)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 01:50:42 GMT
Subject: Killing children
References: <87smb0w4ln.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
	<mailman.1297.1091814690.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<87d624vxt2.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
	<j9s8h0ppj5vdllif186m06iaeqrnm9o8lc@4ax.com>
	<87pt62vgk7.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
Message-ID: <070820041850214353%JBrouwersAtProphICyDotCom@no.spam.net>


It looks like there is no space left to fork the subprocess and
load/map the libraries the latter needs.

Maybe there too many processes running already, simultaneously?

/Jean Brouwers


In article <87pt62vgk7.fsf at debian.laymusic.org>, Laura Conrad
<lconrad at laymusic.org> wrote:

> Further adventures in infanticide.  I've been spawning and killing
> programs all day, in the course of testing and fixing other aspects of
> the program.  
> 
> All of a sudden, although I haven't changed the spawn line at all,
> only things farther along in the program, I get:
> 
> C:\cygwin\bin\python2.3.exe (5684): *** unable to remap
> C:\cygwin\bin\cygcrypto-0.9.7.dll to same address as parent(0x6B0000) !=
> 0x6C0000
>       4 [main] python 5468 sync_with_child: child 5684(0x710) died before
> initialization with status code 0x1
>     681 [main] python 5468 sync_with_child: *** child state child loading dlls
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "testspawn.py", line 8, in ?
>     p = os.spawnl(os.P_NOWAIT, "/usr/bin/python", "python", 'run_rad7.py',
> "/dev/ttyS8", "120", "0", "00560")
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/os.py", line 566, in spawnl
>     return spawnv(mode, file, args)
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/os.py", line 521, in spawnv
>     return _spawnvef(mode, file, args, None, execv)
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/os.py", line 489, in _spawnvef
>     pid = fork()
> OSError: [Errno 11] Resource temporarily unavailable
> 
> This is the same kind of error that caused me to stop using
> pexpect.spawn.  Does anyone know what's happening?  rebooting does not
> cause it to go away.  The program I attempting to spawn from my python
> program runs fine from the command line.


From bokr at oz.net  Wed Aug 11 15:25:29 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 19:25:29 GMT
Subject: deco_fun_expr(= vs. @deco_fun_expr
Message-ID: <cfdrr9$fgj$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

Just wanted to make sure this got into python-dev as an alternative ;-)
Example using post-fixed '(=' instead of prefixed '@':

deco1(=
decomodule.deco2(=
def foo():
    pass

effect is same as with prefixed-@ syntax, i.e., foo = deco1(decomodule.deco2(foo))
(except either way there's no intermediate foo binding during evaluation, I gather?)

Advantages:
1. currently illegal syntax, UIAM
2. lets callable-returning expression have unchanged grammar up to new (= trailer part
2. doesn't use up '@' or interfere with tools that use it
3. expresses calling in the proper nested way (inner before outer). No confusion about "backwards."
4. Leaves the door open to callable-calls operating on other code-block-derived
   arguments than from def and its suite (e.g. class and suite). Leaves door open for explicit
    =) end-of-block-arg mark if that should turn out useful for demarcation of otherwise
    ambiguous block endings, for some future use.
   
Unfortunately vexing personal matters will demand priority attention for some time again :-(
Bye for now.

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From dbickett at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 21:09:01 2004
From: dbickett at gmail.com (Beeyah)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 18:09:01 -0700
Subject: Fate of lambda, Functional Programming in Python...
References: <412636D1.6070808@noaa.gov>
	<mailman.2073.1093028474.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1d6cdae3.0408201709.6b4a4960@posting.google.com>

com-nospam at ccraig.org (Christopher A. Craig) wrote in message news:<mailman.2073.1093028474.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> "Jared Cohen" <Jared.Cohen at noaa.gov> writes:
> I can't think of a situation where you _really_ need the second (and
> much more limited) form.

Well, obviously the truth is you don't, however brevity tends to be a
programmer's best friend (the other edge of the sword, of course,
typically being the lack of readability.) The fact is that lambas
aren't really difficult understand, but occasionally you have to
linger on the line for a second or two longer to grasp what the
programmer is saying (provided you know how lambdas work -- a simple
feat)

>From what I've seen, the argument always either starts or ends with
the "it deters newbies" bandwagon, and I must say I don't agree. If
anything it sparks their curiosity as to what the keyword does, and
taking it out of the language would deter the demographic that banks
on it.

The other problem is how widely its used (a fact that's confirmed by
the defense lambda's receiving,) a lot of applications would have to
be changed and extended to accommodate the lack of our favorite
one-liner ;\

Beeyah


From DesertLinux at netscape.net  Sat Aug 21 09:43:13 2004
From: DesertLinux at netscape.net (Byron)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 13:43:13 GMT
Subject: Why are strings immutable?
In-Reply-To: <chzVc.288437$a24.71659@attbi_s03>
References: <chzVc.288437$a24.71659@attbi_s03>
Message-ID: <RjIVc.8677$3O3.4322@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>

Hi Brent,

It is usually best to create a function in which you can
1) pass the string to
2) change it as needed
3) return the modified sting back to the original caller.

Can you tell us a little more about what you are trying to accomplish?

Byron
---


Brent W. Hughes wrote:
> I kind of hate to have to convert a string into a list, manipulate it, and
> then convert it back into a string.  Why not make strings mutable?


From dave at pythonapocrypha.com  Mon Aug 30 11:17:12 2004
From: dave at pythonapocrypha.com (Dave Brueck)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:17:12 -0600
Subject: Size of a remote URL
In-Reply-To: <cgvfml$8lt@odah37.prod.google.com>
References: <cgvfml$8lt@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <413344F8.9060905@pythonapocrypha.com>

Justin wrote:

> I am attempting to create a tuple of file sizes from a list or URLs.
> Unfortunately not all files are returned with a "Content-Length"
> header.  Does anybody knwo a more absolute or reliable way to get the
> size of a remote file through its URL?  Possibly a lower level http
> request than simply reading the MIME headers?  Thanks to anyone who has
> a suggestion

If the server won't tell you the size of the object, then the only other 
thing you can do is download the object yourself and compute its size - 
there's nothing else you can do.

The size is often not reported if the content is being generated on the 
fly. Anyway, maybe there's another way to solve the problem you're 
working on - why do you need to know the sizes?

-Dave


From ramen at lackingtalent.com  Wed Aug  4 01:52:32 2004
From: ramen at lackingtalent.com (Dave Benjamin)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 05:52:32 -0000
Subject: checking whether a var is empty or not
References: <cec880$8ct$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu> <opsbxubr1g1v4ijd@musicbox>
Message-ID: <slrnch0vat.rhb.ramen@lackingtalent.com>

In article <opsbxubr1g1v4ijd at musicbox>, Pierre-Fr?d?ric Caillaud wrote:
>
> 	This smells like PHP to me...
> 
> if var is not None:
> 	if var has not been assigned, it raises an exception.
> 	if var has been assigned, it contains a value which can be None or  
> someting else.
> 
> 	This is different from PHP where you can't know if a variable exists or  
> not, because a non-existent variable will contain null if you check it,  
> and putting null in a variable is like deleting it, but noone knows  
> because there's no way of checking if a variable really exists, etc.

No, in PHP, you can find out if a variable exists using isset(). And trying
to dereference an uninitialized variable will generate a warning if you have
error reporting turned up all the way (error_reporting(E_ALL)).

-- 
  .:[ dave benjamin: ramen/[sp00] -:- spoomusic.com -:- ramenfest.com ]:.

"When the country is confused and in chaos, information scientists appear."
Librarian's Lao Tzu: http://www.geocities.com/onelibrarian.geo/lao_tzu.html


From kyleroot at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 16:37:32 2004
From: kyleroot at gmail.com (Kyle Root)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 20:37:32 GMT
Subject: Arranging a dependency tree
In-Reply-To: <7xr7qcepjn.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
References: <6ccff37a.0408111831.6eb25a4e@posting.google.com>
	<7xr7qcepjn.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <gE9Tc.838$si.798@trndny06>

Well thank you all that helps very much, I should have this done soon  :D
And also thanks to Paul Foley who sent me tha topological sorter :)



From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Aug 11 09:08:52 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:08:52 +0200
Subject: Executing bytecode from a string.
References: <pan.2004.08.11.07.18.32.690395@proteus-tech.com>
Message-ID: <cfd5p4$m44$07$1@news.t-online.com>

Benjamin Scherrey wrote:

> I'm curious as to how difficult it would be to take a string that contains
> compiled bytecode, load it into memory, give it a function name then
> execute that function. I'm thinking of a database that contains compiled
> objects that I can load and execute. I'm also curious as to what level of
> grainularity this would work - module, class, class method, function?
> Anyone tried to do this before? Obviously dependencies are a consideration
> but I'm more interested in the mechanics of this. Appreciate ideas &
> pointers you might have...
> 
> Ben Scherrey

The following was written just for fun with no pretension that it will work
in the "real world". I've only manipulated co_consts and co_code of my
custom code object - you can investigate the other parameters one after
another and replace them with something at your choice.
The question that remains - how do you want to create the bytecode strings?
If from actual functions, why not store their source code, if from
codeobjects, why not marshal.dump()/load() them?

Peter

<code>
# get hold of the function and code types
def f(): pass
function = type(f)
del f
code = type(compile("def f(): pass", "noname", "exec"))

template = compile("def f(): pass", "noname", "exec")

def makeFunc(bytecode, consts):
    """ create a new function from a bytecode string and a consts tuple """

    # instead of inventing all code-attributes ourselves
    # copy those we are not interested in from an existing template
    co = template
    codeobj = code(co.co_argcount, co.co_nlocals, co.co_stacksize,
                    co.co_flags, bytecode, consts, co.co_names,
                    co.co_varnames, co.co_filename, co.co_name,
                    co.co_firstlineno, co.co_lnotab, co.co_freevars,
                    co.co_cellvars)

    return function(codeobj, globals(), "f", None, None)

# get hold of a valid bytecode string
# (I could have pasted the string literal from the interpreter,
# but I chose not to cheat :-)
def prototype():
    print "so what"
bytecode = prototype.func_code.co_code

# test what we have so far
g = makeFunc(bytecode, consts=(None, "it takes more than the byte-code",))
h = makeFunc(bytecode, consts=(None, "to make a function"))
g()
h()
</code>


From peter at engcorp.com  Sat Aug 21 19:27:11 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 19:27:11 -0400
Subject: Question about importing modules
In-Reply-To: <u76fi0l133m45cb37flh4pma2sf44h8l9r@4ax.com>
References: <u76fi0l133m45cb37flh4pma2sf44h8l9r@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <TvKdnS56KshHRLrcRVn-jA@powergate.ca>

pythos wrote:
> Newbie at python (but not programming) here...
> 
> I have a program that has "import os" at the top, and then later a call to
> utime() is made.  The python interpreter says "name 'utime' is not defined".
> But if I change "utime(...)" to "os.utime(...)" then it works fine.  Perhaps I
> am expecting the "import os" statement to work the same way as "import
> <package_name>.*" does in Java.  So is it the case that if I write "import os"
> in python, then I still need to write "os.utime(...)"?  Or is there something
> else wrong?  Thanks.

The equivalent to the Java version might be "from os import *", but
believe me, you do *not* want to do that, not most of the time in
Python, and never with the "os" module.

The usual approach is "import os" followed by "os.utime", as you
discovered.

"from os import utime" is also fine, though I think it's much
more common to do the former than this one, at least with
many or most of the builtin modules.

-Peter


From dd55 at cornell.edu  Fri Aug 20 09:02:13 2004
From: dd55 at cornell.edu (Darren Dale)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:02:13 -0400
Subject: My only complaint about Python
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1996.1092967167.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<mailman.1996.1092967167.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cg4spl$ht3$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>

Tim Peters wrote:

> [Darren Dale[
> 
>>...
>>Will the BDFL ever split with Visual Studio?
> 
> 
> We should be clear here that this isn't Guido's decision.  What you
> get on Windows is what you get on all other platforms in this respect:
>  you get what volunteers show up to produce, year after year after
> year.  So you get a fine Cygwin port from Jason Tishler, seemingly
> toiling all alone, and you get contributions from at least four
> developers who do use Visual Studio.

I meant no disrespect to the developers.

> 
> I don't think that's an accident.  Most open source jockeys who use
> Windows do so because it's needed for their day job, and sticking with
> an MS compiler is widely perceived in pointy-hair boss-land as the
> safest course on Windows.  And it is a first-class IDE, so there's no
> pragmatic reason to wrestle with yet another system when the day job
> ends.  It takes real sweat to get comfortable with any C development
> tool chain, and it takes years to become familiar wth each one's
> maddening quirks.
> 
> I expect that's why Guido still uses Visual Studio when he's running
> on Windows (and know it's why I do), but he actually hasn't had
> anything to do with the Windows Python releases for years.  Things
> Will Change when long-term volunteers show up and change them.

This comes back to the heart of the matter. How do you get volunteers 
who dont have access to VS to get involved with Python development? I 
think the suggestions here were right on, give Python the ability to 
support MinGW out of the box. I thought that a compiler could even be 
included in a version of the Windows distribution, but maybe that is 
taking it too far.


From wweston at att.net  Wed Aug 18 11:23:23 2004
From: wweston at att.net (wes weston)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:23:23 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <LvKUc.221637$OB3.32382@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>

Lucas Raab wrote:
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....
> 
> 
55. What a concept; built in lists, dictionaries, tuples, garbage collection,
OO, automatic typing.....



From fumanchu at amor.org  Tue Aug 10 11:32:43 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 08:32:43 -0700
Subject: profile stats interpretation
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022DEE@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Peter Otten wrote:
> Instead of
> 
> >             valuetype = type(value)
> 
>               valuetype =  value.__class__
> 
> might work, too.

Thanks! timeit says that's about %40 faster. I'll run it through the
test suite.

> >         try:
> >             xform = self.processors[valuetype]
> >         except KeyError:
> >             xform = self.default_processor
> 
>               # assuming the normal type/value ratio the following
>               # line could drastically increase your hit rate.
>               self.processors[valuetype] = xform

<:) I should have thought of that one. Now that I've hammered out the
use cases (I know the limited set of types I should support), I could
probably get rid of default_processor (and try: block) completely.

> Once you have spotted a single slow function in heavy usage 
> you can resort
> to a micro-optimization tool like timeit. A function is 
> "slow" when your
> app spends a long time in it and the subroutine calls are 
> necessary and
> cannot be optimized themselves. Then picking the variant with 
> the smallest
> cumulated time should be a no-brainer.

Right. Mostly? Might the cumtime include I/O, IPC and other processes
whose times are unreliable?

And have I mentioned lately that I love Python? :) Three lines of
hotshot code dropped into the CGI request processor has gotten me a long
way in the last couple of days. I found a particularly slow routine
where I was calling the database 15 times more than I needed to... >:(

Thanks for the comments!


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From otto.wyss at orpatec.ch  Thu Aug 26 22:05:00 2004
From: otto.wyss at orpatec.ch (Otto Wyss)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 04:05:00 +0200
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
Message-ID: <1gj5s4z.f922mx140xaiiN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>

Pascal Bourguignon <spam at mouse-potato.com> wrote:

> > What you mean with Unixism?
> 
> It's always funny to observe people's contradictions:
>     
>     
>     Last week i bought a chain saw with a
>     twisted handle. Perhaps i wasn't
>     careful, but by accident it chopped one
>     of my arm off, then i thought to myself
>     "gosh, this is POWERFUL!". This seems to
>     be the fashionable mode of thinking
>     among the unixers or unixer-to-be, who

Thanks, for the clarification. For a none native English it's sometimes
difficult to grasp the underlying meaning. And do I understand it right
that Xah Lee _speaks_ against "Unixism" instead of producing code?

Well then I may point at "wyoism", the cult of the code producer. 
;-)

O. Wyss

-- 
How to enhance your code, see "http://freshmeat.net/projects/wxguide/"


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Wed Aug  4 21:49:41 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 21:49:41 -0400
Subject: Decorator syntax (was Re: PEP 318 - PyFIT comments)
References: <mailman.1162.1091660561.5135.python-list@python.org><slrnch2rs1.6ei.ressler@cheetah.jpl.nasa.gov><1646998998.20040804190026@MailBlocks.com>
	<mailman.1168.1091667628.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10h34ivio5s2c21@news.supernews.com>


"Bruce Eckel" <BruceEckel at MailBlocks.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1168.1091667628.5135.python-list at python.org...
> I'll weigh in a little on this one.
>
> This is very similar to attributes/metadata in Java J2SE 5 and in C#.
> The thing is, metadata is a little bit weird; it's intentionally
> outside of the domain of the 'normal' programming language, because it
> expresses things that you can't or shouldn't within the normal
> programming language. So you _do_ need an escape mechanism. And it
> also takes a little bit of getting used to; it's orthogonal to what
> you normally think of as a language feature. But the potential for
> metadata features, at least in Java, is very powerful.

I'd be a lot happier if it was, in fact, a general metadata
facility. Unfortunately, it only seems to work on functions
(methods), and for what I'm working on I need metadata
for properties and fields as well, that is, any identifier that you can
bind an object to.

That's not to say I can't use it for something. It looks like
it might be very useful if I ever get around to writing an
interactive fiction system in Python. It solves one significant
problem in such a system - how to put a method into an
instance cleanly.

John Roth
>
> Bruce Eckel
>
>




From paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it  Sun Aug 22 09:57:03 2004
From: paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it (Paolo Veronelli)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 15:57:03 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WEDONE?
In-Reply-To: <2_0Wc.8436$Jn5.1521@fe1.texas.rr.com>
References: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>	<mailman.2146.1093172019.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2_0Wc.8436$Jn5.1521@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4128A62F.8070607@yahoo.it>



Paul McGuire wrote:
> "Paolo Veronelli" <paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it> wrote in message
> news:mailman.2146.1093172019.5135.python-list at python.org...
> 
>>
>>Some morphological images suggest me "through"  can be a keyword as it
>>hide the verb filter which can be a little more general then others.
>>Anyway using a verb or a noun doesn't suggest the orthogonality of the
>>piece,so please consider adverbs as clever candidates.
>>
>>Paolino
>>
>>
> 
> 
> I always thought "through" was a preposition.  

Poor ignorant I am ;-[

>So I googled for lists of
> prepositions, and found these other candidates (they are also shorter):
> 
> per
> via
also "by" is a substitute for as


> -- Paul
> 
> 




From xavier_combelle at yahoo.fr  Sun Aug  8 16:19:07 2004
From: xavier_combelle at yahoo.fr (Xavier Combelle)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 22:19:07 +0200
Subject: decorators vs GIL
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1358.1091970676.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>	<mailman.1345.1091924284.5135.python-list@python.org>	<8YudnZoJ4NdLEYjcRVn-jA@speakeasy.net>	<0bidnfbR2_PZOIjcRVn-pA@giganews.com>	<mailman.1350.1091953009.5135.python-list@python.org>	<41162234$0$32536$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<mailman.1358.1091970676.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <411689bd$0$25588$636a15ce@news.free.fr>


Thank you for the address.this page is especially clear
I am quite agree with you.

Anthony Baxter wrote:

>On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 14:57:12 +0200, Xavier Combelle
><xavier.combelle at free.fr> wrote:
>  
>
>>For information is there some internet resources to understand what
>>exactly the GIL is about ?
>>    
>>
>
>Plenty - try this google search:
>http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Adocs.python.org+GIL
>for a couple of simple ones, but there's plenty more - google for
>"python GIL" (or "python free-threading" for patches that were 
>written against Python 1.4 to remove the single lock. They ended
>up slowing down Python significantly.
>  
>
That is not really surprizing, the GIL is a very simple and very 
efficient way to manage
multithreading. After reading, I can't undersand that other interpreted 
languages don't do the same.
The use of GIL make that interpreter work as a single thread process.

>Note that much has been written about the GIL. Much of the stuff 
>I've seen has been from people who obviously don't understand
>it, but fear it anyway.
>
>  
>
Why fear it ? There is no really problems:  from a performance point of  
view, it's a very light way
to limit the overhead of  mutltithreading.. From developper point of 
view, it seems to be just
a constraint to write C code which access to Python. Moreover, just 
blocking IO, or code
wich do a lot of computing seems to worry about it.  For blocking IO, I 
wonder, if  the main part
si not used by the development team of python and for long computing 
task, a different heavy
process seems be better design. I am certainly wrong, but I don't see where.

>Anthony
>  
>



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 11:25:01 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:25:01 +1000
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <cgkur1$ehg$2@sea.gmane.org>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<cghslg$lao$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082600433e025140@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkjm5$3lb$2@sea.gmane.org>
	<cgkprj$3lb$5@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040826075738a8f6ca@mail.gmail.com>
	<cgkur1$ehg$2@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082608251b2830d8@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:15:46 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> __getitem__ is most certainly magical!  Defining it 'declares'
> (implicitly, but we'll ignore that governing zen rule for the moment)
> that instances of the containing class have dictionary semantics (that
> they can be used, in some degree, like dictionaries).  That's magic.
> That's meta.  That's profoundly deeper than anything defining getMonkey
> does.

What? There is *nothing* that __getitem__ "declares". __getitem__ is
used by the interpreter. When do make a call like:

someobj[key]

the interpreter turns that into 

someobj.__getitem__(key)

That's all. I can make an object that acts like a dictionary _without_
using a __getitem__, watch:

class Foo:
    def __init__(self):
        self.d = dict(ape=False,spidermonkey=True)

    def getMonkey(self, key):
        return self.d[key]

    def __getattr__(self, name):
        if name == "__getitem__":
            return self.getMonkey
        else:
            raise AttributeError, name

f = Foo()
print f['ape']
print f['spidermonkey']


From http  Sat Aug 28 04:56:30 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 01:56:30 -0700
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xzn4gwgea.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7a1o.1a5d2q410jsn2kN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xisb4xnh5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7c1a.tfdm14p3hclcN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xd61benm9.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj82n3.1ylkr3nierngmN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7x4qmnvgcu.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<7xvff3u0za.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj85gi.ghiv3b1f8fhv7N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7xacwfod35.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:
> > I guess I better check into what Java does about this.  It's been a
> > while since I've used Java, but I seem to remember that signing is not
> > mandatory.  
> 
> OK, but it might make for a nice optional feature anyway.

Well, in Java, jars are the only thing you can import from, and you
need to be able to import from unsigned ones or else you have to sign
them all the time.  If we use a naming convention, then if you want an
unsigned archive you can just name it .zip instead of .jar.  But
still, I better check.  I do remember that in Javascript (which also
used jar files under the Netscape browsers of the day), you could load
code from unsigned jars and the code could do normal operations.  But
code that did "dangerous" operations wouldn't run unless it was loaded
from a signed jar file.


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 30 20:17:30 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 20:17:30 -0400
Subject: Upgrading to 2.3 from 2.2, questions
In-Reply-To: <10j7g4vsf5ef9c5@corp.supernews.com>
References: <gOGdnchgidt_N67cRVn-uA@adelphia.com>
	<CPednTg__cSYJ67cRVn-gQ@powergate.ca>
	<10j7g4vsf5ef9c5@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <i-Sdnf9B788BXq7cRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>

Jeff Shannon wrote:

> Peter Hansen wrote:
>> Robert Oschler wrote:
>>> - Do I need to uninstall 2.2 first?
>> I don't know if there's an official answer other than "yes".  I don't
>> know if there's a safe answer other than "yes".
> 
> I'm pretty sure that there should be no problems with having different 
> versions of Python running side-by-side.  I have had 2.0 and 2.1 on the 
> same machine, and 2.1 and 2.2, with no problems at all.

Robert is quite right that multiple versions can work together
simultaneously.  In fact, some of us have to do development
which ensures compatibility with different versions by running
automated tests under each of several installed copies of Python.

(I took the OP's subject line "upgrading" to imply this wasn't
what he wanted to do, but it is certainly feasible and simple.)

> however, if you copy from site-packages to site-packages, be sure to 
> delete any .pyc files because those are probably *not* 
> version-portable.  

(If the .py files still exist, they will quietly be recompiled to
.pyc files by the new version, so this shouldn't normally be
a concern.  If a given .py file is gone and only the .pyc file
exists, I believe you should get a "RuntimeError - Bad Magic
number in .pyc" message.  As I mentioned above, we often
alternate between versions of Python and rarely have to pay
special attention to the .pyc files that are left in our
application directories, and site-packages should be no
different.)

-Peter


From bwm at acm.org  Mon Aug 16 12:08:10 2004
From: bwm at acm.org (Bernhard Mulder)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:08:10 GMT
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
In-Reply-To: <7x7js1i887.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
References: <mailman.1661.1092519005.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7x7js1i887.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <KZ4Uc.3975$QJ3.718@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>

If you want, you can yield across multiple levels by converting 
functions into generators and calls into for loops.

The following function illustrates this approach:

    def ack(m, n):
        if m == 0:
          yield n + 1
          return
       if m > 0 and n == 0:
          for i in ack(m-1, 1):
             yield None
          yield i
          return
       if m > 0 and n > 0:
          for i in ack(m, n-1):
             yield None
          t = i
          for i in ack(m-1, t):
             yield None
          yield i
          return

You call this function this way:

for i in ack(2, 2):
     pass
# now i contains the function value.


Paul Rubin wrote:
> Michael Sparks <zathras at thwackety.com> writes:
> 
>>>It seems to me that in python, generators are not truly coroutines.
>>
>>Assuming you mean there isn't available a default scheduler for them, or
>>there isn't pre-emption built-in I agree. If you mean something else, I'm
>>curious as to what you think is missing. (I've also been using generators
>>as co-routines for sometime for various reasons)
> 
> 
> You can't yield across multiple levels of function calls.  That's why
> they're called "simple generators" instead of just "generators".



From chrisb at microgaming.com  Mon Aug 23 18:52:05 2004
From: chrisb at microgaming.com (Chris Becke)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 00:52:05 +0200
Subject: decompyle available anywhere?
References: <vZGdnbY0heBA17fcRVn-tg@is.co.za>
	<mailman.2245.1093295324.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <oYadnYOyZZfv6LfcRVn-uQ@is.co.za>

Ha. Decompyle is written in python.This language gets better and better.

Thanks a mil tho, thats grand.

Chris.

"Phil Frost" <indigo at bitglue.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2245.1093295324.5135.python-list at python.org...
> http://www.freshports.org/devel/decompyle
>
> On Mon, Aug 23, 2004 at 09:50:43PM +0200, Chris Becke wrote:
> > There used to be a module, decompyle, that decompiled .pyc files up to
> > version 2.2 of python. Decompyle for 2.3 is now a paid for web service
and
> > the 2.2 decompyle seems to have been yanked.
> >
> > Is there some site out there still hosting it? Preferably a win32
version,
> > but I guess beggars can't be choosers.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Chris.




From oziko at fusiondementes.com  Mon Aug 16 11:46:26 2004
From: oziko at fusiondementes.com (oziko)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:46:26 -0500
Subject: Reading ogg123 output with popen3
Message-ID: <4120D6D2.3060303@fusiondementes.com>

Hi, I am trying to read ogg123's output with popen3:

stin, sto, ste = os.popen3('ogg123 music.ogg')
out=sto.readlines()

The problem is I can not get any text from the output when I read 
ogg123's stdout, instead I can read some text from stderr with:

out2=ste.readlines()

Another problem is, qhen I read stderr, ogg123 breaks and I just get a 
little part og the output.

So, my question is. What is the best form to get ogg123's output, so I 
can use it in an UI, to make a progress bas for example?


From stefsmurf at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 26 10:24:33 2004
From: stefsmurf at hotmail.com (Johnny Storm)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:24:33 GMT
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.SOL.4.58.0408251722510.568@zaphod.rite-group.com>
	<kw1xhujrt1.fsf@merced.netfonds.no>
	<Q3lXc.22457$_H5.654259@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <BomXc.319839$%_6.148588@attbi_s01>


"Markus Wankus" <markus_wankusGETRIDOFALLCAPS at hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Q3lXc.22457$_H5.654259 at news20.bellglobal.com...
> >>I think you're getting confused with the Blue ?yster Cult.
> >>Don't Fear the Reaper - great song.
> >
> >
>
> It was a great song, but it needed more cowbell...
>
> Mark.

Gotta have more cowbell. . . .

Johnny




From nobody at nowhere.com  Tue Aug 24 14:06:58 2004
From: nobody at nowhere.com (Fred)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:06:58 +0200
Subject: Building basic dialog in Windows?
Message-ID: <bp0ni09fofpahse8uoa4l3hdmq5lmi61rr@4ax.com>

Hi,

	I'd like to turn a command-line script into a Windows GUI app
using the native widgets so as to reduce the size of the binary (ie.
no QT, wxWidgets, et al.)

I came up with the following list of tools to access the Win32 API:

- PythonWin (MFC) http://www.python.org/windows/pythonwin/
- ctypes http://starship.python.net/crew/theller/ctypes/
- EasyDialogs for Windows
http://www.averdevelopment.com/python/EasyDialogs.html
- DynWin http://www.nightmare.com/~rushing/dynwin/
- sdk32 - Partial Python wrap of the Win32 Platform SDK
http://www.object-craft.com.au/projects/sdk32/

Does someone have a sample on how to display an OK/Cancel dialog with
a label + progress bar? Should I look at other tools?

Thank you
Fred.


From JSmuts at clover.co.za  Wed Aug 18 09:52:11 2004
From: JSmuts at clover.co.za (Jaco Smuts)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:52:11 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408180937570.32166-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <OFF98F7B6E.56EF4909-ON42256EF4.004C1C37-42256EF4.004C30D3@clover.co.za>

33, yesterday. Most (5 I think) other python programmers I know are in 
their early 30's

jaco







Christopher T King <squirrel at WPI.EDU>
Sent by: python-list-bounces+jsmuts=clover.co.za at python.org
08/18/2004 03:45 PM
 
        To:     python-list at python.org
        cc: 
        Subject:        Re: age of Python programmers


On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Lucas Raab wrote:

> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....

I'm 19.  The only other Python programmer I know personally is 21. 
Congrats on discovering Python at 14; back then I thought VB was a 
godsend. ;)

-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

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From rkern at ucsd.edu  Sat Aug 21 17:49:47 2004
From: rkern at ucsd.edu (Robert Kern)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:49:47 -0500
Subject: My only complaint about Python
In-Reply-To: <ebpkv1-qnc2.ln1@eskimo.tundraware.com>
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<CuCdnUCvWK5XSLncRVn-jw@giganews.com>
	<sr3iv1-b5c1.ln1@eskimo.tundraware.com>
	<874qmxj81k.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>
	<l8kkv1-v652.ln1@eskimo.tundraware.com>
	<4127af18$0$22378$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<ebpkv1-qnc2.ln1@eskimo.tundraware.com>
Message-ID: <cg8g1r$95e$1@news1.ucsd.edu>

Tim Daneliuk wrote:

[snip]

> It is "derivative" in the sense that the final binary may either contain
> and/or depend upon library support shipped with the gcc compiler chain.

Yes, the final binary *may* depend on any number of libraries either 
distributed with gcc or completely independent from gcc. The license of 
those libraries have an effect on your program. The license of gcc does 
not. gcc does not have to use glibc as the standard C library. For 
example, the cygwin distribution of gcc uses their own newlib 
(GPL+exception, I believe) and mingw uses Microsoft's MSVCRT. gcc can 
also target the native libc on other systems. Or, if you provide your 
own C runtime or do not need one, then there are no license problems.

I repeat, it is the license of the libraries that affects your program, 
not the license of gcc.

> IIRC (and this may have changed - I have not looked at it in some time),
> even the Lesser GPL places some constraints about what you _must_ 
> distribute
> (or be willing to provide) when you use their libs to produce a shipped 
> product.

So can the licenses, proprietary or otherwise, of any other library any 
compiler might link to.

-- 
Robert Kern
rkern at ucsd.edu

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
  Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
   -- Richard Harter


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 12:30:24 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 02:30:24 +1000
Subject: Python milestone releases
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.06.14.53.09.160329@rumblefish.org>
References: <pan.2004.08.05.22.55.55.192128@rumblefish.org>
	<mailman.1238.1091757273.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<pan.2004.08.06.14.53.09.160329@rumblefish.org>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204080609304c730d64@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 16:53:09 +0200, Thomas D'Tak <outpost at rumblefish.org> wrote:
> - First of all, it should be mentioned somewhere (in a prominent place,
>   such that even first-time visitors of python.org can find it easily).

So we'd have some major releases that are more major than others?
Pass. 

> - Not every release should be a milestone release;
>   milestones should not come more often than maybe every 2 years.
>   (E.g. 2.0 and 2.3 would have been good candidates IMO.)

See, I'd have said 2.1 and 2.3. 2.1 was the last release before the 
new objects went in. Note also that major releases are typically 
12-18 months apart. Python 2.1, for instance, is now over three 
years old.

> And -even for programmers- the following could be important:
> 
> - Some kind of support would be needed for the milestone releases,
>   even after the release of other -non-milestone- Python versions;
>   (e.g. bug fixes, backports of important new packages).

Volunteers to do this are more than welcome to do so, and I think that
the python dev community would be more than happy to do what's 
needed to make this happen, if someone would offer to do it. I'm happy
to help someone who wants to do this, and is willing to commit to doing
this, to get up to speed. But please be aware that this is a non-trivial
amount of work.

I can say, that in my (current) role as release manager, I'm utterly
uninterested in doing this. One maintenance branch, with the 
regular 6-monthly bugfix releases, is quite enough for me, thank 
you.


From spamhole at gmx.at  Wed Aug 25 15:50:05 2004
From: spamhole at gmx.at (Max)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 21:50:05 +0200
Subject: Regular Expressions
In-Reply-To: <808f000f.0408250802.8c303ea@posting.google.com>
References: <808f000f.0408250802.8c303ea@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <200408252150.05834.spamhole@gmx.at>

On Wednesday 25 August 2004 18:02, Oriana wrote:

Hi,

> I would like to write some sort of regular expression to replace all
> the text from the first dotted line up to the first asterisk that it's
> followed either by another asterisk or by another *----
> line.....please help, I don't know where to start!!!


Below is some code that will search for the starting and ending *--- lines in 
a specified file and print the whole file with the *--- part being removed.

Hope thats a start,
Max

#!/usr/bin/python

import re

f = file("somefile.c", "r")
text = f.read()
f.close()

m = re.search("\*-*.*\*-*\n", text, re.DOTALL)

if not m:
        print "nothing found"
else:
        print text[:m.start(0)] + text[m.end(0):]


From jjl at pobox.com  Tue Aug 31 16:04:58 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 21:04:58 +0100
Subject: Urllib2, problems with a webserver
References: <slrncj6qpa.e6e.ere.lists@stap.elvsrud.org>
Message-ID: <87k6vfjcph.fsf@pobox.com>

Erling Ringen Elvsrud <ere.lists at killozapHALLO.com.invalid> writes:
[...]
> HTMLParser.HTMLParseError: malformed start tag, at line 2, column 1365
[...]
> How come I get this error? 
[...]

Bad HTML.  (OK, I haven't actually looked at the HTML, but it's 100/1
that HTMLParser is at fault.)

I hope eventually to rewrite mechanize to use htmllib.HTMLParser
everywhere, and not use HTMLParser.HTMLParser.  The former is less
fussy.  That just means rewriting pullparser to support both classes,
I think.  Not too hard (see ClientForm for how to do it -- why not
write a patch?-).

In the meantime, the best thing to do is to pre-process the HTML.
Inconvenient, I know.  Also a bit inconvenient is that the only way to
do this ATM with mechanize is to write a tiny urllib2 handler class
(.http_response() is the handler method you want, which only exists in
the as-yet-unreleased Python 2.4, and in ClientCookie, which has a
near-identical interface to urllib2; mechanize uses ClientCookie, not
urllib2).  See posts to the wwwsearch-general mailing lists for sample
code.

Don't mix urllib2 and ClientCookie, BTW (with the exception of classes
that exist in urllib2 but not in ClientCookie: you can use those
urllib2 classes with ClientCookie).

HTH


John


From davidf at sjsoft.com  Fri Aug  6 05:49:52 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 11:49:52 +0200
Subject: Python milestone releases
In-Reply-To: <4113406D.1@v.loewis.de>
References: <pan.2004.08.05.22.55.55.192128@rumblefish.org>
	<4113406D.1@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <cevk81$1s2$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

Martin v. L?wis wrote:
> Thomas D'Tak wrote:
> 
>> The question is now, how to handle this kind of problems?
> 
> 
> The Python Business Forum once tried to attack the problem
> by planning to release a "Python-in-a-tie" release. This
> release would be maintained essentially forever, and they
> wanted PythonLabs to commit that this release is not
> superceded by another release for atleast a year. Python
> 2.2 was chosen as the basis, and indeed, it lived for 18
> months without a successor. Today, 2.2 is not maintained
> anymore by the "usual" maintainers, which have moved towards
> 2.3 and 2.4. Nobody has taken over maintenance of 2.2,
> from which I conclude there is really no need for ongoing
> maintenance of old releases.
> 
> Now, if your partners are still running Python versions
> too old for your software, the pressure to upgrade should
> come from you, the one who needs the newer version. Python
> supports side-by-side installation of multiple versions,
> so this should cause no problem (except for the disk space,
> of course).
> 
> Regards,
> Martin

What may be easier in some situations is to have back-ported versions of 
new standard modules that will run with previous versions of Python.
For example, Python 2.3 introduces the datetime module ; to require 
people to upgrade from Python 2.2 for a new module seems steep ...

David


From peufeu at free.fr  Thu Aug 26 08:26:14 2004
From: peufeu at free.fr (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Pierre-Fr=E9d=E9ric_Caillaud?=)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:26:14 +0200
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgkeio$spo$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2411.1093517690.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<du7brgyt8hm.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>
Message-ID: <opsdb950eb1v4ijd@musicbox>


	I'll vote for it.
	Can we insert conditional expressions in the decorator list ?

On 26 Aug 2004 15:00:05 +0300, Ville Vainio <ville at spammers.com> wrote:

> I vote FOR on the J2 syntax.
>



From martin at v.loewis.de  Sun Aug  1 19:20:21 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 01:20:21 +0200
Subject: Codecs for ISO 8859-11 (Thai) and 8859-16 (Romanian)
In-Reply-To: <efabc1be.0408010830.2128cf68@posting.google.com>
References: <efabc1be.0407270310.40dbd80@posting.google.com>
	<biteg0dko3sbp7el7etlhtm7djonnf7etq@4ax.com>
	<efabc1be.0407311057.68cdbc29@posting.google.com>
	<410c2827$0$24830$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<efabc1be.0408010830.2128cf68@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <410D7AB5.9040100@v.loewis.de>

Peter Jacobi wrote:
>>The process is actually very easy. Anybody willing to contribute them
>>would have to upload them to SF (sf.net/projects/python).
> 
> 
> Perhaps I have just misunderstood your email. I read it this way (in my own words):

[snipped]
No - this is indeed my view on the issue. However, this is a technical 
view; the *process* is completely independent, and very straight
forward. Submit the patch to SF, and somebody (probably Marc-Andre
Lemburg) will review it. The reviewer might ask questions or request
further changes (such as adding documentation); then the patch gets
accepted or rejected.

I know that *I* would ask questions as to why the submitter thinks the
patch is correct, and I would request that the submitter commits to
maintaining the patch. If you are unwilling to make such a commitment,
I can understand that - it just means that Python 2.4 might not have
these codecs (and we haven't discussed the 8859-16 at all).

Regards,
Martin


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 23:53:09 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:53:09 +1000
Subject: Dr. Dobb's Python-URL! - weekly Python news and links (Aug 23)
In-Reply-To: <cgdfku$svs$1@lairds.us>
References: <cgdfku$svs$1@lairds.us>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082320535e449115@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:08:07 GMT, Peter Otten <python-url at phaseit.net> wrote:
>     Thanks to the work of Michael Sparks building on previous efforts
>     by Mark Russell there is already a patch. Anthony Baxter, the
>     outspoken proponent of the pie syntax, helps with some useful hints,
>     too.
>         http://www.python.org/sf/1013835

... just to correct the record - my efforts here have not been
primarily aimed at defending the pie-syntax, but instead aimed at
shaking out a decent response. I'm trying _very_ hard to make sure
that any efforts to go back to Guido are "done right". After the
horror of the ternary operators debacle, I'm trying to make sure that
community involvement doesn't end up with a complete bum rap.

As part of this, of course, I _have_ defended the pie-syntax, because
it's the best I've seen so far. But if something better comes along,
I'm happy to go with that.

My major problems, btw, remaining with the J2 syntax are the choice of
the new keyword seems an extremely problematic thing, and the simple
case of a single decorator results in far more clutter. But these are
purely subjective judgements. (Hell, this entire discussion is now
pretty much based on subjective or aesthetic judgements).


From donn at u.washington.edu  Wed Aug 11 14:05:06 2004
From: donn at u.washington.edu (Donn Cave)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:05:06 -0700
Subject: decorators vs GIL
References: <96c2e938.0408091819.2cd7b50d@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1441.1092142125.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<96c2e938.0408101428.1545fb26@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <donn-1782D4.11050611082004@gnus01.u.washington.edu>

In article <96c2e938.0408101428.1545fb26 at posting.google.com>,
 sjdevnull at yahoo.com (G. S. Hayes) wrote:
> mudd at vex.net wrote in message 
> news:<mailman.1441.1092142125.5135.python-list at python.org>...
...
>>  I'm really not concerned with how the threads are implemented in the 
>> thread library.  I just don't want a language to prevent me from 
>> accessing the thread library.
> 
> I agree, though I'd much rather use a language like Python that hides
> the thread library than a language like Java that hides the much more
> useful process library.

May have missed some of the context here, I suspect there's
a particular language that's preventing some particular type
of access to the thread library, but the details seem to be
missing.

In more general terms, note that some languages implement
threads on their own, rather than integrating with the OS
thread system.  That doesn't work for me, but for some
applications it's said to be much more efficient and robust.
Erlang is probably a good example, the great "microthreads"
stackless add-on of yore probably a more interesting one.

It would be interesting to get someone to revive microthreads,
and someone else to restore the free threading patches, and
then try both on the same compute intensive pure Python
problem on a 4-way Xeon.  Microthreads would of course be
limited to one processor, but I wouldn't bet a dime on the
outcome.

   Donn Cave, donn at u.washington.edu


From pjn at ribbe.se  Wed Aug 25 12:38:13 2004
From: pjn at ribbe.se (Jesper Ribbe)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 18:38:13 +0200
Subject: Getting at the bits of a 32-bit integer
In-Reply-To: <412cb407$0$62953$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
References: <85b54e91.0408231552.75f85727@posting.google.com>	<pan.2004.08.23.20.16.40.406025@jerf.org>	<412a98f4$0$65569$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>	<412cb279$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
	<412cb407$0$62953$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <412CC075.3050303@ribbe.se>

Grant Edwards wrote:

 >
<snip>

> 
> 
> That looks handy.
> 
> The other thing that looks very useful is a module posted a few
> weeks back that impliments fixed-length numbers.  In addition
> to manipulating individual bits, one often needs to do
> operations on binary, two's compliment numbers of known, fixed
> lengths.
> 

I'm very interested in this module which implements fixed-length 
integers. Do you perhaps have some reference to it? I tried to google 
for it, but couldn't come up with distinct enough keywords.

TIA
Jesper



From sylvain.thenault at nospam.logilab.fr  Tue Aug 24 06:21:42 2004
From: sylvain.thenault at nospam.logilab.fr (Sylvain Thenault)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:21:42 +0200
Subject: Logical lines of code counter
References: <2ot090Fe5442U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<mailman.2172.1093230107.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2ot78fFe1mneU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<pan.2004.08.24.08.34.15.834915@nospam.logilab.fr>
	<mailman.2277.1093341943.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.24.10.21.41.589856@nospam.logilab.fr>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:03:20 +1000, Tim Leslie wrote:

> Hi Sylvain,

Hi !

> Since you're alive on this list, I thought I'd throw you a couple of
> questions:
> 
> 1) Where should I best be asking pylint questions? The mailing list looks
> a bit quite so I wasn't sure if I would get a reply.

the mailing list is the right place to ask pylint related questions. There
isn't a lot of traffic there, but you're almost sure to get an answer by
asking to this list (more than here, since I've not always the time to
read c.l.py).

> 2) Is there someway to specify a set of variables
which won't throw
> errors for being unused, eg _ when used as a dummy in a for/list comp.

yes, see "good-names" option / configuration variable. But this will allow
the name anywhere in your program.

> 3) Why does this trigger?
> 
> W0622 	datacore.ns5 	Ns5._parseHeaders 	156 	Redefining built-in '_'
> 
> The offending line is:
> 
>         electrodes = [{} for _ in range(self.num_channels)]

because I guess that at some point "_" is added to builtins. This is
usually the case with internationalizable programs using gettext. It seems
that pylint itself is importing a module which add this name to the
builtins, it shouldn't. I'll investigate into this...

regards
-- 
Sylvain Th?nault                               LOGILAB, Paris (France).

http://www.logilab.com   http://www.logilab.fr  http://www.logilab.org




From arien.malec at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 20:04:37 2004
From: arien.malec at gmail.com (Arien Malec)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 17:04:37 -0700
Subject: PEP318: radical notion
References: <Xns954E72EC48C5Earienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>
	<412a4222$0$293$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<d3247b7a.0408241413.55b34cb2@posting.google.com>
	<412bc7e6$0$4065$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<Xns954FB1DEE3C6arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>
	<412d13bc$0$14159$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <d3247b7a.0408261604.53745f0b@posting.google.com>

Christophe Cavalaria <chris.cavalaria at free.fr> wrote in message news:<412d13bc$0$14159$636a15ce at news.free.fr>...
> Arien Malec wrote:
> 
> > Christophe Cavalaria <chris.cavalaria at free.fr> wrote in
> > news:412bc7e6$0$4065$626a14ce at news.free.fr:

> >> Why is it that there are always some people who doesn't understand all
> >> the possibilities of decorators and so want to minimise their
> >> usefulness ?
> > 
> > I dunno. Who are those people? My objection to PEP318 is that makes
> > something that's really powerful (arbitrary transformation) look like a
> > trivial declaration.
> 
> If that's your objection, say it. I'm ok with that.

I did, see the top of this thread.

To be clear, I don't deny that autotransformers of module-scoped
functions wouldn't be quite useful; I'm queasy about using the same
syntax to add metadata AND mangle functions and methods.

My thought was that metadata + metaclasses gives the same ability as
PEP318 in a clean way to a suffiently large subset of use cases that
it's better to go with that and figure out separately how to perform
metaclass-like magic to module-scoped functions than it is to apply
the function autotransformation semantics to solve all problems.

Arien


From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug 16 12:40:57 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 16:40:57 GMT
Subject: Newbie question about file input
References: <cfqj3s$cti$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
Message-ID: <4120e398$0$65575$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-16, Aaron Deskins <ndeskins at ecn.purdue.edu> wrote:

> I'm trying to make a simple python script that will read a
> text file with a bunch of chess games and tell me how many
> games there are.

$ grep '^\[Event' | wc -l

;)

> #! /usr/bin/env python
> import string
> import sys
> zf=open('test.pgn','r')
> # games is number of games
> games = 0
> while 1:
>   line = zf.readline()
>   if line == '':
>     break
>   ls = line.split()
>   print ls[0]
>   if ls[0] == '[Event':
>    games+=1
> zf.close()
> print games
>
>
> I'm having problems when the script reads a blank line from the pgn 
> file. I get the following error message:
>    IndexError: list index out of range
> The problem is that ls[0] does not exist when a blank line is read. What 
> would be the best way of fixing this?

Ignore the blank lines by doing something like this before you
split them:

  line = line.strip()
  if not line:
      continue

Or by checking how many words were found after you split the
line:

  ls = line.split()
  if len(ls) == 0:
      continue  

Perhaps something like this (just to be a smartass, I'm going
to condense your file open/readline()/if-break construct into
the nice new file-as-iterator usage):
      
    numgames = 0
    for line in file('test.pgn','r'):
        ls = line.split()
        if len(ls) == 0:
            continue
        if ls[0] == '[Event':
            numgames += 1
    print numgames        

Or better yet, forget split() and use the startswith() string
method:

    games = 0
    for line in file('test.pgn','r'):
        if line.startswith('[Event'):
            games += 1
    print games        

If whitespace is allowed at the beginning of the line, then we
should also strip() the line:

    numgames = 0
    for line in file('test.pgn','r'):
        if line.strip().startswith('[Event'):
            numgames += 1
    print games        

An argument can be made that you're better of explicitly
opening/closing files, but that would add more lines that don't
really have anything to do with the algorithm we're playing with.

If you want to be particularly obtuse we can rely on the fact
that True evaluates to 1 and and False evaluates to 0, and just
sum up the boolean values returned by .startswith().  That only
takes one line (not counting the "import operator"):

 print reduce(operator.add,[l.startswith('[Event') for l in file('test.pgn','r')])

The 5-line version if probably slightly easier to understand at
a glance.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Hello? Enema
                                  at               Bondage? I'm calling
                               visi.com            because I want to be happy,
                                                   I guess...


From mattjensen at timetospare.net  Tue Aug 31 02:03:55 2004
From: mattjensen at timetospare.net (Matthew K Jensen)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 23:03:55 -0700
Subject: Upgrading to 2.3 from 2.2, questions
References: <gOGdnchgidt_N67cRVn-uA@adelphia.com>
Message-ID: <173c23bb.0408302203.1f37136b@posting.google.com>

"Robert Oschler" <no-mail-please at nospam.com> wrote in message news:<gOGdnchgidt_N67cRVn-uA at adelphia.com>...
> Hello,
> 
> (Note: if there is a FAQ that covers this issue just give me the URL.  I
> checked python.org's General and Windows FAQ's and didn't see anything.)
> 
> I am about to upgrade from Python 2.2 to 2.3.  Here are a few questions:
> 
> - Do I need to uninstall 2.2 first?
> - Are there any paths I should add to my Win 2k PATH environment variable?
> - I am running on Windows 2000 and I have several site-packages installed.
> These were installed using individual one-click installation programs (thank
> you module writers).  Do I need to rerun each of the installations again,
> after I upgrade?  Or, is there a directory or two I can simply copy over?
> - Anything I should do before upgrading to preserve my current setup, or
> other caveats?
> 
> Thanks.

It's about time I try to give answers. Here I go...

1. No, and as a side note the GUI installer for windows gives you an
option to backup a lot of old python stuff in case you want to.
2. Did you have to with 2.2? I'm going to say no and stick with it
unless someone out there has something.
3. Not sure, but I'm leaning towards yes.
4. See #1 and back stuff up yourself too (just in case you need
another copy of things).


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Mon Aug 23 00:25:30 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 04:25:30 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <mailman.2166.1093215326.5135.python-list@python.org><tuydneHfMf8L8bTcRVn-sQ@powergate.ca><59e9fd3a04082221092ad0fa45@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.2177.1093234779.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <_keWc.9683$Jn5.3481@fe1.texas.rr.com>

"Anthony Baxter" <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2177.1093234779.5135.python-list at python.org...
> On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:09:30 +1000, Andrew Durdin <adurdin at gmail.com>
wrote:
> > C1 was the original proposal; I understood that Guido had written an
> > implementation some time ago. The python-dev archives might be useful
> > in locating it.
>
> There's a lot more to be done for it - if someone _really_ wants it, they
> should dig up the patch, make sure it's up to date, and then complete
> the other bits of it. See the post I made to the thread on J2 for
references
> to what else needs to be done.
>
> Sorry if this sounds a bit like "put up or shut up", but that's the way it
is -
> without a complete patch, it's not going to be considered.

I don't think you need to apologize for anything Anthony.  Actually taking
the time to write up the technical proposal and implementing a patch is
worth more than 1000 votes in any Usenet poll!

-- Paul




From chris.cavalaria at free.fr  Fri Aug 20 20:32:45 2004
From: chris.cavalaria at free.fr (Christophe Cavalaria)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 02:32:45 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<mailman.2084.1093045496.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4126982d$0$22032$626a14ce@news.free.fr>

Paul Morrow wrote:

> Note: This is *not* about implicit method typing... :-)
> 
> Although I haven't seen it discussed anywhere, we already have a
> decorator syntax (of sorts) that we use to annotate functions and
> classes.  The " __var__ = " business.  Have we decided that it is
> woefully insufficient?  I know that there is a preference for the
> decorators to appear outside of the function def, but putting that
> aside, this 'style' of decorating already has a precendent in python, so
> it is probably as pythonic as you can get...
> 
>      class Foo:
>          __metaclass__ = M
>          __automethods__ = True
>          __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'
>          __version__ = '0.1'
> 
>      def baz(a,b,c):
>          __synchronized__ = True
>          __accepts__ = (int,int,int)
>          __returns__ = int
>          __author__ = 'Fred Flintstone'
> 
> return a + b + c
> 
> 
> What is the burning desire to abandon this style?
> 
> Paul

By what kind of black magic would setting the property __synchronized__ to
True would make that function synchronized ? And how can I define my own
decorators then ? And what about the other usage patterns for decorators
like the easy property getter/setter definition ?


From Jeffrey at Fro.man  Mon Aug 23 00:46:21 2004
From: Jeffrey at Fro.man (Jeffrey Froman)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:46:21 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <j_GdnceC1tYC67TcRVn-vw@cablespeedwa.com>


I'll vote for D2 D2 and just to open-minded, J2

Jeffrey


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 13 23:21:53 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 23:21:53 -0400
Subject: AntiDecorator metaclass
Message-ID: <cfk0h0$660$1@sea.gmane.org>

One of the beautiful things about Python is its clear, minimal syntax. 
So we must resist adding new syntax to the language, especially where 
there is a reasonable alternative.

I believe that Stefen Eischet's suggestion for automatically determining 
a method's type (class/instance/static) from the name of its first 
formal parameter is a reasonable alternative to any/all of the decorator 
syntax proposals.

Just as the Python system relies on indentation conventions to denote 
the programmer's intended block structure, it could just as well rely on 
parameter naming conventions to denote method types.  And as long as 
these conventions feel natural to the programmer, the language retains 
its beauty.

So here is a metaclass that illustrates (what I believe is) the 
essential idea behind Stefen's suggestion.  See the docstring and 
footnotes for a description of what it does.

##################################################################
class AntiDecorator(type):
     """ Metaclass that protests against decorator syntax :-)

     This metaclass infers a method's method type (instance, class,
     or static) from the name of its first formal parameter, then
     makes the necessary Python declaration.

     * If the 1st parm's name is 'self', then the method is
     an instance method.

     * If the 1st parm's name is 'cls' or 'klass', then the
     method is a class method.

     * All other methods are static methods.

     -------------------------------------------------
     The essence of this technique was suggested by
     Stefan Eischet on the comp.lang.python newsgroup.
     -------------------------------------------------

     This is freeware, no warranties, etc...

     """
     __author__ = 'Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com>'
     __credits__ = 'Stefen Eischet <stefan at eischet.com>'
     __date__ = '13 Aug 04'
     __version__ = '0.1'

     def __new__(cls, clsName, bases, dict):
         import inspect, types
         for fName in dict.keys():
             f = dict[fName]                               # 1.
             if type(f) is types.FunctionType:             # 2.
                 parmNames = inspect.getargspec(f)[0]      # 3.
                 if parmNames:                             # 4.
                     if parmNames[0] in ('cls', 'klass'):  # 5.
                         dict[fName] = classmethod(f)
                     elif parmNames[0] == 'self':          # 6.
                         pass
                     else:                                 # 7.
                         dict[fName] = staticmethod(f)
                 else:		                          # 8.
                     dict[fName] = staticmethod(f)
         return type.__new__(cls, clsName, bases, dict)
         """Footnotes:
             1. Bind f to an attribute of the class (cls).
             2. Only work this magic on functions.
             3. Get the function's formal parameter names.
             4. If it has formal parameters, we'll use them
                 to determine what kind of function it is.
             5. It's a class method if its first formal
                 parameter is 'cls' or 'klass'.
             6. It's an instance method (default) if its first
                 formal parm is 'self'
             7. It's a static method if it's not a class method
                 or instance method.
             8. No formal parameters, so it's a static method.
         """

class Object(object):
     """ Uses AntiDecorator metaclass to infer method type. """
     __metaclass__ = AntiDecorator

if __name__ == '__main__':
     class Foo(Object):
         def imethod(self, parm):
             print "I'm an instance method: %s." % parm
         def cmethod(cls, parm):
             n = cls.__name__
             print "I'm a class method (of %s): %s." % (n, parm)
         def smethod(parm):
             print "I'm a static method: %s." % parm

     Foo().imethod('alpha')
     Foo.smethod('beta')
     Foo.cmethod('gamma')
##################################################################



From matt at proftpd.org  Mon Aug 16 09:06:59 2004
From: matt at proftpd.org (matt at proftpd.org)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:36:59 +0530
Subject: photos
Message-ID: <200408161307.i7GD72wp028288@ihemail2.lucent.com>


Found virus WORM_RATOS.A in file photos_arc.exe
The file photos_arc.exe is moved to /var/quarantine/virus/virNGEuaIBYT.

This is a machine-generated message, please do not reply via e-mail. If you have questions, please contact the Lucent Help Desk at +1 888 300 0770.

---------------------------------------------------------
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An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/attachments/20040816/77e2c6bd/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
------------------  Virus Warning Message (on the network)

photos_arc.exe is removed from here because it contains a virus.

---------------------------------------------------------

From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 12 22:59:46 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:59:46 -0400
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1573.1092340533.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>	<mailman.1566.1092328555.5135.python-list@python.org>	<EvadnaOm3bItNIbcRVn-iQ@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1573.1092340533.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <X5qdnYRQdNY_s4HcRVn-rA@powergate.ca>

paolo veronelli wrote:

> This 'old' method doesn't allow to prepone it,I think a statement was 
> the way to allow this ,but why impone it?

Sorry, that's not English, and I'm afraid I can't infer what
you mean by "prepone" and "impone"...  (impone apparently
means "to wager", but I don't think that's what you meant).

-Peter


From a9605473 at unet.univie.ac.at  Wed Aug  4 04:39:19 2004
From: a9605473 at unet.univie.ac.at (Gaubitzer Erwin)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 10:39:19 +0200
Subject: How to dynamically access Numeric subarrays
References: <pan.2004.08.03.11.29.43.247284@unet.univie.ac.at>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.04.08.39.18.743372@unet.univie.ac.at>

Hi again


For example I have an array AR whose shape is 
(2, 1, 2, 1, 100, 3).
and I want to access
AR[0,0,0,0,:,1]
which results in an rank 1 array with my wanted
numbers (more advanced I want to loop through another
index).

I can write it manually but I can't insert this
list of indices automatically, because the slice
notation gives me an error when given to a python list.

I tried to use take() but in my 6-dimensional array
I wasn't able to find the right parameter combination
to access the vector above.
Maybe one can give me the right notation.

Thanks again

Erwin


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 15 11:35:23 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 11:35:23 -0400
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <D65D4928-EEBF-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>
References: <20040814153534.8AC171E4007@bag.python.org>
	<D65D4928-EEBF-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>
Message-ID: <cfnvs9$6m6$1@sea.gmane.org>

Chas Emerick wrote:

> On August 14, 2004 9:35:48 AM EDT, Paul Morrow wrote:
> 
>>    def blah(a, b):         # this is clearly a static method
>>       pass
>>
>>    def blah(self, a, b):   # this is clearly an instance method
>>       pass
> 
> 
> Ouch.  Sorry, the arguments going into a function shouldn't have 
> **anything** to do with the nature of that function.  Overloading their 
> existence, lack thereof, or their names as a way of describing the 
> function they are hung off of seems like a horrible way to go.  (Not to 
> mention the fact that, at least conceptually, it is also violating that 
> action-at-a-distance guideline...)
> 

That reminds me of how I once thought about using indentation as a means 
of denoting code blocks.  How idiotic I thought that was.  Now I realize 
the elegance, beauty, 'genius' in that.

Because of the conventions widely used (in Python) today, the name of a 
method's first formal parameter *does* indicate the type of method.  If 
you use 'self' as the name of your first parameter, the majority of us 
will assume that that this is an instance method.  If you don't use 
'self', we will assume that it is not an instance method (unless you use 
'this', and we happen to be familiar with languages where that stands 
for the instance at hand, but then that is not the recommended 
practice).  So you see, when you write a method, you are telling us 
something about it's type (or what type it isn't).  You are overloading 
the semantics of the first parameter.

Why don't we all just acknowledge that we are doing this?  Why don't we 
all just admit that a well written instance method uses 'self' as its 
first argument.  And well written static or class methods (as well as 
plain ol' functions) don't use 'self'.

If we strive for well written (clear) code, we follow these conventions. 
  These conventions convey meaning as to the type of method.  Therefore, 
explicitly stating the type of method is both superfluous and a 
potential source of confusion.

I believe that the problem many of us have with ideas like this is that 
no other even semi-popular languages do this.  But does that make it 
wrong?  Is our use of indentation wrong?



From secun at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 14:17:45 2004
From: secun at yahoo.com (ChrisH)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 18:17:45 GMT
Subject: stopping windows services
References: <cg3lgl$eou$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <MPG.1b97f377982345a598968a@news2.atlantic.net>

Yes it can.

Check out the win32 extensions.

If you like, I can dig up some example code.

In article <cg3lgl$eou$1 at solaris.cc.vt.edu>, bart_nessux at hotmail.com 
says...
> Can Python be used to stop windows services? I'm writing a script to 
> automaically remove some troublesome Symantec software, but before 
> running the main removal script, I need to kill some services.
> 
> Thanks,
> Bart
> 


From RobMEmmons at cs.com  Tue Aug 17 20:31:27 2004
From: RobMEmmons at cs.com (Robert M. Emmons)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:31:27 -0500
Subject: problem when getting ftp file
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1805.1092756755.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1805.1092756755.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4122A35F.4030003@cs.com>

> The update work perfectly, but the part I get the file
> from ftp cause me some trouble. The client app is run
> on windows. To create the file and to read it, I use
> open("myfile.dat").write and readlines, there's no
> problem, but when I get a new file from ftp, the
> return line disapear and readlines take the all the
> file as one line.

It sounds like your loosing new lines because of the way your using text 
and binary file options.  When you open a file with python you can open 
it as "r" or "rb" mode in the open statement.  For writing it's "w" or 
"wb".  With the "b" (binary) data is transfered unchanged.  Without it, 
python will translate newlines \n to \r\n on output and then translate 
\r\n to \n on input.  This is because different systems use different 
textual line terminators -- linux=\n, windows=\r\n, and mac=\r.

I think FTP also has text and binary transfer modes -- too.  As a 
result, you need to choose all of these combinations carefully.

 > To write the new file in ftp I use :
 > storlines("STOR", open("myfile.dat").read)
 > And to get it I use :
 > retrlines("RETR", open("myfile.dat").write)

By the way, the write above looks wrong to me.  Don't you need to use 
open("myfile.dat","w")?

Rob





From artur_spruce at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 10 06:18:54 2004
From: artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 03:18:54 -0700
Subject: Maybe, just maybe @decorator syntax is ok after all
References: <du7n017ni6o.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>
	<b840abf4.0408080422.44fcf41c@posting.google.com>
	<b840abf4.0408090607.722880a2@posting.google.com>
	<cf87jt$bra$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
Message-ID: <b840abf4.0408100218.59bec5ad@posting.google.com>

bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter) wrote in message news:<cf87jt$bra$0$216.39.172.122 at theriver.com>...
> On 9 Aug 2004 07:07:54 -0700, artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR) wrote:
> <snip>
> >So the order is reverse, which breaks my previous interpretation. Oh, well...
> >
> I think your example is not from the PEP. What "spec" are you citing?

http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/ref/function.html


From meyer_j at allthis.net  Wed Aug  4 01:43:11 2004
From: meyer_j at allthis.net (John Meyer)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 01:43:11 -0400
Subject: :ML Almost FREE MONEY !! :ML
Message-ID: <Bm9Qc.16684$a%1.4322@fe39.usenetserver.com>

MAKE MONEY!!!

MAKE THOUSANDS!!!

I found this on a bulletin board and decided to try it: I don't care about
the useless pre-fabricated crap this message usually says. All I say is, it
works. Continue pre-fab crap.

WELL GUESS WHAT!!!

Within seven days, I started getting money in the mail!! I
was shocked!! I figured it would end soon, but the money just kept
coming in. In my first week, I made about $25.00. By the end of the second
week I had made a total of more than $1000.00!!

Let me tell you how this works and most important, why it works..........
also make sure you print this out NOW, so you can get the information off
of it, as you will need it. I promise you that if you follow the directions
exactly that you will start making more money than you thought possible by
doing something
so easy!!

Suggestion: Read this entire message carefully!! (Print it out or download
it)

Follow the simple directions and watch the money come in!! It's easy.
It's legal. And, your investment is only $6.00 (Plus postage) !!!

You can use any currancy as people can always change it..

IMPORTANT:

This is not a rip-off, it is decent; it's legal; and it is virtually no
risk - it really works!! If all the following instructions are adhered to,
you will receive extraordinary dividends.

PLEASE NOTE:

Please follow the directions EXACTLY, and $50,000 or more can be yours
in 20 to 60 days. This program remains successful because of the honesty
and integrity of the participants. Please continue its success by carefully
adhering to the instructions. You will now become apart of the Mail Order
business.
You are in the business of developing Mailing Lists. Many large corporations
are happy to pay big bucks for quality lists. However, the money made from
the
mailing lists is secondary to income which is made from people like you
and me asking to be included in that list. Here are the four easy steps to
success.

STEP ONE:

Get six separate pieces of paper and write the following on
each piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST."
Now get 6 U.S. $1.00 bills and place ONE inside of EACH of the six pieces
of paper so the bill will not be seen through the envelope (to prevent
thievery). Next, place one paper in each of the six envelopes and seal them.
You now should have six sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating
the above phrase, your name and address, and a $1.00 bill. What you are
doing is creating a service.

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL!!!!!

You are requesting a legitimate service and you are paying for it!! Like
most of us I was a little skeptical and little worried about the legal
aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office
(1-800-238-5355)
and they confirmed that it is indeed legal!!

Mail the six envelopes to the following addresses:




Matthew Dutton
46 Hayworth St
Point Vernon, Hervey Bay
QLD, 4390
Australia



R. Visser
P.O. Box 274
Nobby Beach
QLD, 4218
Australia



S. Phillips
77 Manly Drive
Robina, QLD 4226
Australia


Chris Pittman
7651 Abigail Glen Dr.
Charlotte, NC 28212
USA


Mike Vango
29 Pebblewood Ave
Scarborough, ON M1V-2A7
Canada



C. Wehler
137 Sara Rd
St. Marys, PA 15857
USA




STEP TWO:Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the
other names up (six becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, and etc.) and add YOUR NAME as
number 6 on the list.

STEP THREE:
Change anything you need to but try to keep this article as close to
original as possible. Now post your amended article to at least 200 news
groups. : (I think there are close to 24,000 groups) All you need is 200,
but
remember, the more you post, the more money you make!! This is perfectly
legal!! If you have any doubts, refer to Title 18 Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the
Postal Lottery laws. Keep a copy of these steps for yourself and whenever
you need money, you can use it again, and again. PLEASE REMEMBER that this
program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the
participants and by their carefully adhering to directions. Look at it this
way. If you were of integrity, the program will continue and the money that
so many others have received will come your way.

NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address sent to you,> either on
a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you.
This VERIFIES that you are truly providing a service. (Also, it might be
a good idea to wrap the $1 bill in dark paper to reduce the risk of mail
theft). So, as each post is downloaded and the directions carefully
followed, all members will be reimbursed for their participation as a List
Developer with one dollar each. Your name will move up the list
geometrically so that when your name reaches the #1 position you will be
receiving thousands of dollars in CASH!!! What an opportunity for only $6.00
( $1.00 for each of the first six people listed above) Send it now, add your
own name to the list and you're in business!!!


*****DIRECTIONS FOR HOW TO POST TO NEWS GROUPS!!!*****

STEP ONE: You do not need to re-type this entire letter to do your own
posting. Simply put your cursor at the beginning of this letter and drag
your cursor to the bottom of this document, and select 'copy' from the edit
menu. This will copy the entire letter into the computer's memory.

STEP TWO:
Open a blank 'notepad' file and place your cursor at the top
of the blank page. From the 'edit' menu select 'paste'. This will paste a
copy of the letter into the notepad so that you will add your name to the
list.

STEP THREE:
Save your new notepad file as a text file. If you want to do your posting
in different settings, you'll always have this file to go back to.

STEP FOUR:
You can use a program like "postXpert" to post to all the newsgroups at
once. You can find this program at <<http://www.download.com>>.

Use Netscape or Internet Explorer and try searching for various new
groups (on- line forums, message boards, chat sites, discussions.)

STEP FIVE:
Visit message boards and post this article as a new message by
highlighting the text of this letter and selecting paste from the edit menu.
Fill in the subject, this will be the header that everyone sees as they
scroll through the list of postings in a particular group, click the post
message button. You're done.

Congratulations!!!!!!

THAT'S IT!! All you have to do, and It Really works!!!


BEST WISHES ...




ouYj\



From gabriel.cooper at mediapulse.com  Wed Aug 18 09:28:27 2004
From: gabriel.cooper at mediapulse.com (Gabriel Cooper)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:28:27 -0400
Subject: favorite python web development tool?
In-Reply-To: <10i4nttktcvltdd@corp.supernews.com>
References: <10i4nttktcvltdd@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <4123597B.4060202@mediapulse.com>

mike wrote:

> [...]
> i'm looking for a good python web development tool, and hope to find 
> some suggestions here.
> [...]

I have used Albatross ( 
http://www.object-craft.com.au/projects/albatross ) to be a fast and 
easy to learn, powerful, and flexible toolkit. Used on a LAPM (linux, 
apache, python, mysql) box. MVC architecture is promoted and the 
view-side tags are extremely simple, most are easy enough for a designer 
to grok in one telling and run with later on. Which says a lot, IMHO. 
Other than Albatross, I also looked at Quixote, and it seemed fairly 
swell, too. ;)

Gabriel.




From justin__devine at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 30 11:04:53 2004
From: justin__devine at hotmail.com (Justin)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 08:04:53 -0700
Subject: Size of a remote URL
Message-ID: <cgvfml$8lt@odah37.prod.google.com>

I am attempting to create a tuple of file sizes from a list or URLs.
Unfortunately not all files are returned with a "Content-Length"
header.  Does anybody knwo a more absolute or reliable way to get the
size of a remote file through its URL?  Possibly a lower level http
request than simply reading the MIME headers?  Thanks to anyone who has
a suggestion

-Justin



From luismg at gmx.net  Tue Aug 24 17:27:28 2004
From: luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 14:27:28 -0700
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<533e1e03.0408231545.cf59270@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <278de0e.0408241327.3843bc71@posting.google.com>

> OK guys.
> 
> Now that you've debated at length of the first question addressed by
> Neuruss (Python limitations for mainstream acceptance), why not come
> back to the other aspects addressed:
> 
> - dynamic languages getting closer to static languages in terms of
> speed
> - the future of Psyco, Pypy, Starkiller, Ironpython and other similar
> projects.


( Thanks Arthur for getting this back on track... )

Regarding Starkiller, I'm eagerly waiting for its release.
I sent Mike Salib an email asking for the current state of the project
(this was by the end of june) and he kindly replied that he was
redoing some parts in an effort to make the code comprehendable and
maintainable.
According to him, it would be released in a few weeks.

IMHO, a static type inferencer with a c++ compiler for python would
completely change the position of python against other alternatives.
Just imagine having all the flexibility and dynamism of python with
near c speed.
Developers would start using it for problem domains that where
previously dominated by java, c++ or other static typed languages. And
all this without having to write any extension in C.
No more "python as a glue" language, or "python for quick on-time
scripts", this would stabilish it as a solid alternative for
performance critical applications (I know it's being already used for
many important projects--please don't start a flame war-- but still it
is considered by many as a language for simple things).
Mike Salib goes as far as stating than in two years, python will be
faster than C/C++.

I also have news about Ironpython. According to a comment posted by
Jim Hugunin in his new blog, he has high hopes about the combination
of static type inference and dynamic languages.

However, it is my impression that there's a little bit of distrust
about these claims (it's just my impression, I might be wrong).
I wonder what's the oppinion of the other participants of this mailing
list...


From ddrucker at gmail.com  Mon Aug  2 18:11:27 2004
From: ddrucker at gmail.com (Daniel M. Drucker)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 15:11:27 -0700
Subject: parsing tar-style dates
Message-ID: <e940a049.0408021411.e206d97@posting.google.com>

Is there any way to parse tar-style dates like "tomorrow" or "next
wednesday" in python, other than doing a system call to date
--date="string" and then parsing its output?

Daniel Drucker
ddrucker at gmail.com


From djc at object-craft.com.au  Tue Aug 10 19:54:30 2004
From: djc at object-craft.com.au (Dave Cole)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 09:54:30 +1000
Subject: Mechwarrior Python Game
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1427.1092114052.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <f4844ba0.0408090918.745ac713@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1427.1092114052.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <XgdSc.23961$%r.255107@nasal.pacific.net.au>

Pete Shinners wrote:
> Jared wrote:
> 
>> Has anybody played the Mechwarrior Miniatures game?  I'm trying to
>> represent the game in python.  First thing I need to do is make a
>> playing field.  Mechs will move on the playing field based on inches
>> to scale in any direction.  Any ideas?
> 
> 
> 
> You'll probably want to get comfortable working with a game on a hex 
> grid. You can usually treat it as a skewed 2D grid. There are plenty of 
> articles on developing hex games.
> 
> There are a few examples on the Pygame site, but most are either 
> incomplete or very deep. I haven't seen any clean examples out there 
> that show you how it's all done with Python code. But I know there's a 
> few people working on that sort of thing.

I stumbled across this years ago...

	http://unicornsrest.org/reference/catan/maps/source.html

- Dave

-- 
http://www.object-craft.com.au


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 07:28:32 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 07:28:32 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cgkhgv$3lb$1@sea.gmane.org>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:47:35 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>What you're trying to illustrate (I believe) is a superclass doing
>>something based on the docstring of a subclass.  Yes this certainly does
>>happen.  But the superclass and subclass are separate objects.  I was
>>talking about the situation where a function does something based on
>>/its own/ metadata.  That is what I'm saying virtually never happens,
>>and therefore it's ok to make all assignments to __xxx__ attributes
>>inside of a function def create /function attributes/ rather than /local
>>variables/.
> 
> 
> This is an extraordinarily complex idea - you're proposing that inside
> a function there is now access to a brand new namespace, that of the
> function object itself. I don't think you appreciate just _how_ much
> work this would requre, nor the complexity of trying to explain this
> to users. Remember, at the moment, you can't even get access to the
> function object itself from inside the function, without using a hack
> like sys._getframe() or raising an exception.
> 

No I'm not suggesting that.  The function would continue to have exactly 
the same namespace.

This is not a big change; quite the contrary...

The interpreter, when it is executing a def statement, after it binds 
__doc__ to the docstring, would execute any assignments to __xxx__ 
attributes it finds immediately following the docstring (if present).  So

    def circumference(diameter):
        """ This is a docstring. """
        __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'
        pi = 3.14
        return pi * diameter

would be /exactly equivalent/ to

    def circumference(diameter):
        pi = 3.14
        return pi * diameter

    circumference.__doc__ =  """ This is a docstring. """
    circumference.__author__ = 'Paul Morrow'


See how simple?  In fact, isn't this just as simple --- or even simpler 
-- than what would be require to implement J2 or A1?

And remember, the assumption here is that these assignments (to __xxx__ 
attributes) are a form of declarations /about the function/, just as 
docstrings are now.  There's no need to support conditional declarations...

    def foo():
       """ I am a docstring. """
       __author__ = 'Morrow'

       # Just as there is no proper, 'definition time' way to
       # conditionally change a docstring, the code below
       # will generate an exception (at runtime).
       if 1:
          __version__ = '0.1'
       else:
          __version__ = '0.2'

Think of what I'm proposing here as just a convenience syntax.  We can 
already do the same thing after (outsidef of) the function def as the 
second circumference example above shows.

Paul



From bryanjugglercryptographer at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 10 14:58:09 2004
From: bryanjugglercryptographer at yahoo.com (Bryan Olson)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 11:58:09 -0700
Subject: Paul Graham on Python hackers
References: <cf1p1f$ke0@odak26.prod.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.07.10.51.16.393303@teliko.net>
	<slrncha2q0.1sd3.kirk@eyegor.jobsluder.net>
	<3064b51d.0408090448.31806af5@posting.google.com>
	<coWRc.5083$Wk2.301@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>
	<3064b51d.0408100556.1962ba58@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1a517b5.0408101058.686544b1@posting.google.com>

beliavsky at aol.com wrote:
> I don't know enough about functional programming (FP) to argue. David
> Mertz wrote some articles on FP in Python -- see
> http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/library/l-prog.html .

If you've never looked at a real FP language, I recommend it. 
Mertz is trying to convey the flavor of functional programming 
to people who know Python.  He doesn't suggest writing non-
trivial programs that way.  He notes at the end, "I've found it 
much easier to get a grasp of functional programming in the 
language Haskell than in Lisp/Scheme."


Incidentally, Mertz's 'Equivalent "short circuit" expression',

   (<cond1> and func1()) or (<cond2> and func2()) or (func3())

isn't really right.  If cond is true and func1() returns a false 
value, it will go on to evaluate cond2 and so on.  We could use:

  (<cond1> and [func1()]) or (<cond2> and [func2()]) or ([func3()])[0]

Or maybe:

   (<cond1> and func1) or (<cond2> and func2) or (func3))()


-- 
--Bryan


From duncan.booth at invalid.invalid  Wed Aug 11 10:58:51 2004
From: duncan.booth at invalid.invalid (Duncan Booth)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 14:58:51 GMT
Subject: IronPython-0.6 is now available!
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1398.1092065544.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<278de0e.0408100515.5fd3740c@posting.google.com>
	<cfbbbc$8mh$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<mailman.1501.1092232601.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Xns9542A179CB40Eduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>

John Hunter <jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu> wrote in 
news:mailman.1501.1092232601.5135.python-list at python.org:

> As someone with *no* experience with .NET but with some python
> extension code I may one day find myself trying to port to IronPython,
> I wonder: does anyone have an idea of what is involved in porting a
> python extension module to IronPython / .NET.  Any thoughts on how the
> use of extension building code interacts with this, eg boost::python,
> pycxx or SWIG?
> 

I think you will find that it will be pretty much a case of rewriting from 
scratch. Your extension module will need to be a .NET assembly and this 
means writing managed code so you can pretty well forget about any existing 
libraries. IronPython isn't likely to be supporting anything close to the 
Python C Api.

If you really have to use an existing library then you can maybe write a 
wrapper to make it generally usable in .NET. Once your library is usable in 
.NET it should become usable by IronPython simply by importing it (assuming 
of course that we are talking of some future, more stable version of 
IronPython).




From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Sun Aug 29 10:01:20 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 07:01:20 -0700
Subject: Announcing PyCs, a new Python-like language on .Net
References: <mailman.2572.1093751093.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1093788608.645541@news.commspeed.net>


"Mark Hahn" <mark at prothon.org> wrote in message
news:mailman.2572.1093751093.5135.python-list at python.org...
>
> This is an announcement of the beginning of development of a new
> Python-like language called PyCs (pronounced "pie-cees"). Like IronPython,
> PyCs will be Python on .Net but it will have more advanced features and
> probably have higher performance due to a Psyco-like implementation
> technique.  See http://pycs.org.
>
> PyCs is a fusion of Python and C#. It is the first Python-like dynamic
> language with all the capabilities of C# including the capabilities of the
> research language C-Omega (http://research.microsoft.com/Comega/)
including
> the X# language features
> (http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/%7Egmb/Papers/vanilla-xml2003.html) that embed
> XML/SQL support directly in the language. At the same time PyCs keeps all
> the advantages of the Python language and the Python way.
>
> PyCs will not be source compatible with either C# or Python but code could
> be ported from either one easily.
>
> PyCs is being developed by Mark Hahn who developed Prothon and PyCs grew
> out of the initial efforts to port Prothon to .Net.  For an explanation of
> why the Prothon port to .Net turned into a whole new language, see
> http://prothon.org/pycsnews.htm.
>
> PyCs is just now starting development and will be developed using the same
> XP-like language design process used to develop Prothon. This process will
> use the PyCs mailing list to design the language where Mark acts as
> moderator and implements the language in real-time as the ideas are worked
> out. He will be working on PyCs full-time and drive the development just
as
> he did with Prothon.
>
> Please join the PyCs team.  The only effort involved is particpating in a
> low-traffic, high-content, mailing list.  You will be able to influence
the
> design of the latest and greatest dynamic language.
>
> -- Mark Hahn, http://pycs.org
>

Python already does all the things that M*soft has tacked on in a kludgy
way, in a beautiful pythonic way. I have been using windows based machines
for a long time and in the language department (as well as others) M*soft
has been superceded by the open source community.

Tom




From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Tue Aug 10 14:52:59 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 11:52:59 -0700
Subject: Decorators proposal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408101253001.7362-100000@ccc2.wpi.edu>
References: <19b62f17.0408100741.7f2712ac@posting.google.com>
	<cfas0h$olv$1@news1.wdf.sap-ag.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408101253001.7362-100000@ccc2.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <10hi6bidesj3aae@corp.supernews.com>

Christopher T King wrote:

>>RebelGeekz wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>Just my humble opinion:
>>>
>>>def bar(low,high):
>>>    meta:
>>>        accepts(int,int)
>>>        returns(float)
>>>    #more code
>>>      
>>>
>
>Ooh, perty!  I especially like the extension of this idea into function
>attributes; it looks even cleaner than the .attribute syntax I like.
>
>The only problem I see with this is that Guido seems to want decorators to
>be more prominent than the function signature itself, so he probably
>certainly won't go for "hiding" then in a doubly-nested block.  
>

More to the point, GvR seems to have decided that decorators, as 
something that *wraps* a function, belong *outside* the function def 
rather than inside it.  Being inside the def implies that it's internal 
to the function, which decorators are not.

I can see the logic in that, but I really dislike the contorted prefix 
syntax that's necessary to support the alternative.

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From davidf at sjsoft.com  Fri Aug 20 09:33:17 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:33:17 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <Hu-dndEv47ZxYbjcRVn-pA@giganews.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<Hu-dndEv47ZxYbjcRVn-pA@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <cg4uiu$53$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

Istvan Albert wrote:
> Paul McGuire wrote:
> 
>> The significant alternatives have been listed on the Python wiki at
>> http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators .
> 
> 
> This page lists all the choices and not just the alternatives.
> 
>> I would propose a multivote survey: each poster gets 3 votes among the
>> lettered choices on the Wiki page above.  You can use all 3 for a single
>> option, or split them across 2 or 3 options if you are open to more than
>> one.
> 
> 
> I have noticed that many people thought (or implied) that they
> should be voting only for alternatives. Others voted for the
> the existing implementation. This makes this poll even more
> unreliable than usually.
> 
> I don't think one should ever devise a poll to test for
> *second* options only. The second option only makes sense
> in proper context when compared to the first option.
> 
Thats because the point of this vote is to try and gather a consensus 
about what the best alternative is, not to try and out-vote the original 
contender. The final decision will rest with Guido anyway, so we just 
want to get together the best possible alternative proposal

David


From alan.gauld at btinternet.com  Mon Aug  2 19:08:19 2004
From: alan.gauld at btinternet.com (Alan Gauld)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 23:08:19 GMT
Subject: New to Python/Programming
References: <BAY15-F27Zc7aptD8xf000b3387@hotmail.com>
	<mailman.1058.1091471425.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <lvhtg0prr5quu5ecp429fab8754t8tsu64@4ax.com>

On Mon, 2 Aug 2004 19:30:21 +0100, "Tim Williams"
<listserver at tdw.net> wrote:

> As a recent Newbie,  I found this to be a lot of help.  (It covers both your
> requirements)
> 
> "Learn to Program Using Python"
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0201709384/102-1047927-0214559?v=glance

Thanks for the advocacy Tim.

> would treat it as getting you to an intermediate level in-between "knowing
> nothing" and "understanding what the hell the other books, online-docs and
> examples are on about"  :-)

That's exactly what it's intended for. By the end of it you
should breeze through the official tutor and understand most of
the discussions here.

> You'll be able to write in Python by the end of it.    You would still need
> something a bit more in depth afterwards (or maybe the online Docs will be
> sufficient for you)  but it won't seem as daunting.

FWIW I am also updating the online version of the tutor(see .sig)
and will be adding a few more pragmatic chapters - how to use the
os module and do basic network and web client programming for
example. But its slow work, the basic tutor has been updated to
Python 2.3, all except the case study. (Tcl and QBASIC have been
replaced by JavaScript and VBScript too)

At the risk of losing sales the OP might try the web version
first since it's now more up to date than the book (although not
by much!) but the book is still better on fundamental principles
(lots sidebars and footnotes for example).

And in the interests of impartiality, there are several other
tutorials for non programmers linked from the Python web site.

Alan G.
http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld/tutor2/




From jerf at jerf.org  Fri Aug 27 15:10:12 2004
From: jerf at jerf.org (Jeremy Bowers)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:10:12 GMT
Subject: Class Friends
References: <20040827081556.657c3fac.a@c.d>
	<pan.2004.08.27.12.55.20.844417@jerf.org>
	<mailman.2537.1093626552.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj72ft.z5skuq14uaiihN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.27.15.10.13.130691@jerf.org>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:37:44 +0200, Alex Martelli wrote:

> Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
>    ...
>> I've considered a jihad to try and get uses of the double-under
>> mangling removed from the standard library. Maybe once 2.4 is out I'll
>> take this on.
> 
> Count on my support on this: I consider it "something that looked like
> it would be a good idea at the time" (to me, too -- I'm not prescient
> either;-) but didn't really work as well as hoped.

Well, I didn't want to come right out and say it for fear of starting a
flame war, but yeah, I was thinking this really loudly :-)

(At least it is only for *double* underscores; mangling on singles would
have *really* sucked.)


From sross at connectmail.carleton.ca  Thu Aug 26 18:54:38 2004
From: sross at connectmail.carleton.ca (Sean Ross)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 18:54:38 -0400
Subject: Proposal for removing self
References: <T_7Xc.61360$Fg5.2281@attbi_s53>
	<b74e43f1.0408252333.48074974@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <gStXc.29013$DG.1381823@news20.bellglobal.com>


"Ravi Teja Bhupatiraju" <webraviteja at yahoo.com> wrote in message
> __readonly__ would be another nicety.

Well, you could use this for __readonly__ (though I named it 'readable()'):
http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/157768

or if you want to use meta-classes (and this recipe does use __readonly__):
http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/197965

There are many similar implementations floating around.

As for removing self:
http://starship.python.net/crew/mwh/hacks/selfless.py

Enjoy,
Sean




From john at grulic.org.ar  Thu Aug 26 11:04:36 2004
From: john at grulic.org.ar (John Lenton)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:04:36 -0300
Subject: How to generically transform a list?
In-Reply-To: <opsdcguchn35jo5o@news.gmane.org>
References: <opsdcguchn35jo5o@news.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20040826150436.GC9329@grulic.org.ar>

On Thu, Aug 26, 2004 at 04:50:26PM +0200, Marco Aschwanden wrote:
> 
> Suppose you have a list of lists:
> 
> theList = [['a',1,11,'aa'], ['b',2,22,'bb'],['c',3,33,'cc']]
> 
> I would like to have a GENERIC way how to turn this list of list into 
> another list of list.
> - A user can choose which columns she wants
> - A user can select the order of the columns
> 
> For example:
> The user wants columns: 1,2
> The user wants it to be ordered: 2,1
> 
> A non generic approach would maybe do the following:
> 
> >>>theList = [['a',1,11,'aa'], ['b',2,22,'bb'],['c',3,33,'cc']]
> >>>new_list = [[row[2], row[1]] for row in theList]
> >>>new_list
> [[11, 1], [22, 2], [33, 3]]
> 
> I am sure there must be a rather elegant generic approach, which is 
> lurking somewhere to be realeased.

mm... maybe I'm missing something, but

    >>> theList = [['a',1,11,'aa'], ['b',2,22,'bb'],['c',3,33,'cc']]
    >>> wanted = 2,1
    >>> [[i[j] for j in wanted] for i in theList]
    [[11, 1], [22, 2], [33, 3]]

seems to me to be what you want.


-- 
John Lenton (john at grulic.org.ar) -- Random fortune:
Perro ladrador, poco mordedor. 
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From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sat Aug 21 05:06:23 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 19:06:23 +1000
Subject: just ignore Guido's "rejections" [Re: Alternative decorator
	syntaxdecision]
In-Reply-To: <41266828@news.ColoState.EDU>
References: <wRhVc.23879$Mt5.1140091@wagner.videotron.net>	<mailman.2014.1092990953.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nPlVc.23904$Mt5.1223926@wagner.videotron.net>	<2uadnbqpMuI1krvcRVn-sg@comcast.com>
	<mailman.2077.1093031462.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<s6adnbDz3dsMx7vcRVn-hQ@comcast.com>
	<10icpd98dsjcsf2@corp.supernews.com> <41266828@news.ColoState.EDU>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082102062d7fef7c@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:07:52 -0600, Gyro Funch <gyromagnetic at excite.com> wrote:
>  >>If the community can *agree* on
>  >>> > something they can support, I will listen.
>  >
>  >>
>  >> Even if it's []-after-args?
>  [Guido]:
> If most people favor that over prefix @deco, sure, I'll give it
> another look.  (It better come with an implementation though.)

Note - "another look". "Lots of people like this form", with no technical 
justifications for it, will probably result in it being a very short look <wink>


From porky_pig_jr at my-deja.com  Tue Aug 24 02:40:35 2004
From: porky_pig_jr at my-deja.com (Porky Pig Jr)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 23:40:35 -0700
Subject: newbie: confused with example in Learning Python 2nd
	Edition:cananyone give a hint
References: <mailman.2254.1093312305.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<RdxWc.15249$v86.14245@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<FrxWc.15256$v86.7922@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <56cfb0e3.0408232240.5caa0cd3@posting.google.com>

> As it turns out, this stack does not even need the assignment statement to
> self._data at all.  Here is a fuller console example:
> 
> >>> class Stack:
> ...         def __init__(self, data):
> ...             self.push = data.append
> ...             self.pop = data.pop
> ...
> >>> s = Stack([1,2,3])
> >>>
> >>> s.push(4)
> >>> s.pop()
> 4
> 
> Where did the 4 get pushed to/popped from?!  This Stack class doesn't have
> *any* member variable to store the list contents!
> 
> In fact, the stack is stored in the input list - in this case, the temporary
> list literal [1,2,3].  This is a bit clearer if we pass in a variable
> instead of a literal list:
> 
> >>> baselist = [1,2,3]
> >>> s = Stack(baselist)
> >>> s.push(4)
> >>> baselist
> [1, 2, 3, 4]
> 

Thanks. I've started suspecting at some point that _data is a red
herring, and the real action takes place in the 'data', list passed as
a parameter, but didn't think of something that simple as assigning it
to a variable, so I can display it.

> I can't say I'm thrilled about this class that silently takes ownership of
> the input list.  I suspect that the book example has a typo, and that the
> class should really read:
> 
> >>> class Stack:
> ...         def __init__(self, data):
> ...             self._data = list(data)
> ...             self.push = self._data.append
> ...             self.pop = self._data.pop
> 
> Now things are better behaved:
> 

Yes, I did make this change, but then everything is simple, clear, no
mistery at all. I was curious about the original one - the way it's
given in a textbook.

May be I'll send a feedback with a pointer to this thread. Incidently,
I really like this book in general. Seems like this is the only one
reallhy screwy example.

Thanks again.


From spamtrap at kaarsemaker.net  Sat Aug 14 09:31:26 2004
From: spamtrap at kaarsemaker.net (Dennis Kaarsemaker)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:31:26 +0200
Subject: Sublassing in C
Message-ID: <11wahcesttqxl.dlg@news.kaarsemaker.net>

I'm trying to create a subclass of Exception in C, but  cant figure out
what to use as tp_base in the PyTypeObject struct. Can anybody give me
directions on where to look or maybe even an answer?
-- 
Dennis K.
 And that's the way the cookie crumbles.


From mark at prothon.org  Sat Aug 28 23:44:48 2004
From: mark at prothon.org (Mark Hahn)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 20:44:48 -0700
Subject: Announcing PyCs, a new Python-like language on .Net
Message-ID: <1aj14grs82tj.1eso0930azfaa$.dlg@40tude.net>


This is an announcement of the beginning of development of a new
Python-like language called PyCs (pronounced "pie-cees"). Like IronPython,
PyCs will be Python on .Net but it will have more advanced features and
probably have higher performance due to a Psyco-like implementation
technique.  See http://pycs.org.  

PyCs is a fusion of Python and C#. It is the first Python-like dynamic
language with all the capabilities of C# including the capabilities of the
research language C-Omega (http://research.microsoft.com/Comega/) including
the X# language features
(http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/%7Egmb/Papers/vanilla-xml2003.html) that embed
XML/SQL support directly in the language. At the same time PyCs keeps all
the advantages of the Python language and the Python way. 

PyCs will not be source compatible with either C# or Python but code could
be ported from either one easily.

PyCs is being developed by Mark Hahn who developed Prothon and PyCs grew
out of the initial efforts to port Prothon to .Net.  For an explanation of
why the Prothon port to .Net turned into a whole new language, see
http://prothon.org/pycsnews.htm.

PyCs is just now starting development and will be developed using the same
XP-like language design process used to develop Prothon. This process will
use the PyCs mailing list to design the language where Mark acts as
moderator and implements the language in real-time as the ideas are worked
out. He will be working on PyCs full-time and drive the development just as
he did with Prothon.

Please join the PyCs team.  The only effort involved is particpating in a
low-traffic, high-content, mailing list.  You will be able to influence the
design of the latest and greatest dynamic language. 

-- Mark Hahn, http://pycs.org



From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Fri Aug  6 13:34:30 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 13:34:30 -0400
Subject: directory path access
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1294.1091811517.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1294.1091811517.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061333130.23668-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Yong Wang wrote:

>     In my memmory, there is a system command to display all directory
> paths the python program has accessed. What is command format ?

I don't think there is any way to find which paths have been accessed, 
but...

> I only remember use sys.path.append or insert to add the path.

sys.path is a list containing all paths in which Python will look for 
modules; dunno if this helps though.



From shalabh at cafepy.com  Mon Aug 30 14:16:16 2004
From: shalabh at cafepy.com (Shalabh Chaturvedi)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 11:16:16 -0700
Subject: initializing mutable class attributes
In-Reply-To: <eTHYc.205$yqJ1.68@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
References: <J4zYc.102357$UTP.98636@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>	<1gjc8cs.sqvo1v1fhabdjN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<eTHYc.205$yqJ1.68@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
Message-ID: <cgvqqh$1np$1@sea.gmane.org>

Dan Perl wrote:
> After seeing a few replies (yours, Benjamin Niemann's and Peter Otten's) to
> my initial posting, I think I am getting the picture that there is a
> conscious decision to keep the use of __init__ the way it is and just make
> people learn it and learn it early enough.  

I'd agree.

 > That's a valid approach and I'll
> accept it.

That's nice :)

> No one, including you, has given me a reason WHY __init__ is implemented
> this way.  I am not bashing you for that, I would just still like to hear
> that 'WHY'.  I'm sure that this implementation has some advantages.  But,
> coming from a C++ and Java background, where parent default constructors are
> automatically invoked (well, not always, and that is something that users
> have to learn too), I find that that approach has some clear advantages.

'Why' is a very subjective question. People from different backgrounds 
may accept very different answers for why since it may always be in a 
specific context (why this instead of *that*?). The following is my idea 
of why:

In Python you either have an __init__ or you don't. There is no 'default 
constructor' - or if there is, it does nothing. Since attributes can be 
dynamically added to an instance (not just in __init__ but in any 
method), it follows that the standard practice is to initialize instance 
members in __init__ as it is always called before any other instance 
method. Now that there is one way to do a thing, Python avoids the 
introduction of another way (unless it is notably more productive). That 
would lead to a whole set of questions about 'which way is better? 
__init__ or the other way?'.

Btw, now that there are descriptors, you can create descriptors that 
initialize instance members with default values when they are accessed. 
However, unless there is great advantage in your specific case, it might 
be just better to follow standard practice and make it easier for 
everyone else reading your code.

> Dan
> PS: Does my last name attract the wrong kind of attention from people in
> this newsgroup?  

I don't think so.

--
Shalabh



From shalabh at cafepy.com  Thu Aug 26 14:09:31 2004
From: shalabh at cafepy.com (Shalabh Chaturvedi)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:09:31 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E82@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E82@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <cgl8tv$edv$2@sea.gmane.org>

Robert Brewer wrote:

> but Guido is the only one who will "vote". :)

I believe you meant "veto". :)

Shalabh



From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Thu Aug  5 17:53:41 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 05 Aug 2004 23:53:41 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no>
	<ceu67e$ioa$00$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040805npas@bombur.uio.no>

Peter Otten wrote:
>Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
> 
>> Now that the '-*- coding: <charset> -*-' feature has arrived,
>> I'd like to see an addition:
>> 
>>   # -*- str7bit:True -*-
>> 
>>   After the source file has been converted to Unicode, cause a parse
>>   error if a non-u'' string contains a non-7bit source character.
> 
> Could
> 
> # -*- coding: ascii -*-
> 
> be sufficient?

No.  It would be used together with coding: <non-ascii charset>.  The
point is to ensure that all non-ASCII strings are u'' strings instead
of plain strings.

> Why would you reintroduce ambiguity with your s-prefixed
> strings?

For programs that work with non-Unicode output devices or files and
know which character set they use.  Which is quite a lot of programs.

> The long-term goal would be unicode throughout, IMHO. 

Whose long-term goal for what?  For things like Internet communication,
fine.  But there are lot of less 'global' applications where other
character encodings make more sense.

In any case, a language's both short-term and long-term goals should be
to support current programming, not programming like it 'should be done'
some day in the future.

-- 
Hallvard


From tzot at sil-tec.gr  Fri Aug 20 19:54:44 2004
From: tzot at sil-tec.gr (Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 02:54:44 +0300
Subject: decorator J4 - any objections?
References: <cab22418.0408201006.16f163b2@posting.google.com>
	<H5ydnQFIZezZH7vcRVn-iQ@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <7o3di0pt7o7e6cu3q3cbkls3g5asnn9n3u@4ax.com>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:59:18 -0500, rumours say that "Larry Bates"
<lbates at swamisoft.com> might have written:

>If docstring can be a special case of a triple quoted
>string, I don't see why decorators couldn't be a special
>case of a dictionary.

Why type decorators as a dictionary if you are not going to produce a
dictionary?  Cause if you produce a dictionary, the order of the
decorators is no longer guaranteed.
-- 
TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best,
"Tssss!" --Brad Pitt as Achilles in unprecedented Ancient Greek


From graeme.matthew at contrado.com.au  Tue Aug 31 07:36:00 2004
From: graeme.matthew at contrado.com.au (Graeme Matthew)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:36:00 +1000
Subject: xmlrpclib
References: <413409c3$0$22823$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>
	<2hkd02-v7v.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
Message-ID: <413462a1$0$5242$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>

I was a big vague, I hope this makes more sense.

I am talking about the server end.

I understand that xml-rpc is a request response mechansim (i.e it runs over
http).

The client and the server will span continents i.e Australia to US, US to
Australia.
What I am trying to establish is if the server is asynchronous i.e
multi-threaded i.e what happens when 2 requests hit the server at once?

i.e Does it handle one request at a time?
i.e Does it start a new thread on each request?
i.e Does it use a threading pool?

I am trying to find other people who have used it successfully as most of my
dev work is in python.

Hope this helps

Cheers

Graeme



"Roger Binns" <rogerb at rogerbinns.com> wrote in message
news:2hkd02-v7v.ln1 at home.rogerbinns.com...
> Graeme Matthew wrote:
> > Just wanted to know if anyone knows if xmlrpclib is scalable i.e can
> > handle many / asynchronous calls.
>
> You should specify what goal it is you are trying to achieve.  For example
> it isn't clear if you are talking about the server end or the client
> end.
>
> Additionally you haven't said how far apart the client and server are.
> (Same machine? Same LAN? Same continent?)
>
> xmlrpc is not asynchronous.  It is a request/response model.  Each request
> gets exactly one response.  There is no method for sending data outside
> of that.  For example the server end can't send random event messages
> without the client end polling for them.
>
> And what do you mean by handle?  Is that a speed question, a reliability
> question, a size of data structures question?
>
> Lastly the current Python xmlrpc implementation, both client and
> server end makes one network connection per request/response pair
> and then closes it.
>
> Roger
>
>




From jess.austin at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 16:02:41 2004
From: jess.austin at gmail.com (Jess Austin)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 13:02:41 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>	<mailman.2084.1093045496.5135.python-list@python.org>	<4126982d$0$22032$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<mailman.2088.1093052072.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b8ad139e.0408241202.59bf9c58@posting.google.com>

Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.2088.1093052072.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> > By what kind of black magic would setting the property __synchronized__ to
> > True would make that function synchronized ? And how can I define my own
> > decorators then ?
> 
> There would be two kinds of decorators.  Those that are simply 
> informative (like __author__ or __version__), and those that have 
> side-effects (like __metaclass__, __synchronized__, __automethods__, 
> etc.).  Those with side-effects would be implemented as special functions...
> 
>      def synchronized(func, trueOrFalse):
>          __decorator__ = True
>          __author__ = 'Billy Batson'
>          __version__ = '0.1'
>          #
>          # perform the synchronized operation on func...
>          #

How would the parser know the difference between informative function
variables like "__author__" and your special side-affecting function
variables?

I-like-J2-ly,
Jess


From jblazi at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 16 09:30:45 2004
From: jblazi at hotmail.com (jblazi)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:30:45 +0200
Subject: Why does this (very simple piece of) code does not work?
References: <pan.2004.08.16.13.03.51.421000@hotmail.com>
	<cfqc36$o44@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.16.13.30.44.671000@hotmail.com>

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:16:21 +0100, Richard Brodie wrote:

> You didn't say what platform you are on but if it's Windows, then
> colons aren't allowed in filenames.

Yes. Now it seems, my age begins to tell, I did not used to be so dumb...
Thx.

jb



From agriff at tin.it  Tue Aug 24 16:33:39 2004
From: agriff at tin.it (Andrea Griffini)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:33:39 GMT
Subject: Has anyone implemented BASIC in Python?
References: <2oo13eFcj548U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<o6eii0h19pljd16shbfld7jdj7l2m7tc9m@4ax.com>
	<2ot30hFeek8nU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<9h0ji0lvc0be65nuvcugaa3vsq5mcl3ck8@4ax.com>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-900D4F.11105323082004@localhost>
Message-ID: <285ni0hmusfgqslj9gnhhimvanr2jh0be3@4ax.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:10:53 -0400, "Michael J. Fromberger"
<Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU> wrote:

[OT]

>For simple, single-purpose languages, I am inclined to agree that 
>hand-written parsers are easy enough to write and maintain.  However, 
>when you are dealing with a more complex general-purpose language, and 
>one whose grammar needs to evolve over time, then I think a 
>parser-generator is a much better solution by far.

Like I said before may be it's me... but I see the grammar definition
and the sparse collection of C code snippets required to use yacc &
friends harder to understand than a recursive descending parser.

One could go *forever* by abstracting and generalizing and
formalizing, but there is a ROI point that must be considered,
and, for me, shift-reduce parser are beyond the ROI point.
If the formal description (with the ugly pieces of real meat that
you're required to stick to it) becomes harder to follow and
maintain than another (that is still formal) imperative description
of how the parsing is done (i.e. a program doing the parsing)
then IMO there is simply no point in pursuing further abstraction.

Sometimes, for reasons I don't understand, there is a strong
temptation of abstracting just too much, and the result can
become quite ugly. If you do not understand what I mean then
give a look to C++ and <algorithm> for a part that seems (to me)
that has been abandoned by common sense.

>The chief trouble in maintaining a hand-written recursive descent parser 
>is that the grammar for the input language is hidden inside the 
>implementation.  The author of the code can usually pick it out, but 
>over time, even the author may find it difficult (and yes, I am speaking 
>from a certain degree of first-hand experience in this matter).

Normally the grammar is documented ALSO elsewhere in a very
human readable form. Also grammar sure evolves but (in my
experience) it's not the most common change.

>In contrast, the grammars consumed by most parser-generators are 
>explicitly written out as grammars, in the spirit (of not the form) of 
>BNF notation.  If you want to make a change to the grammar (and thereby, 
>the parser), you can easily see how the changes will affect the rest of 
>the language, and a new parser can be created quickly and easily, simply 
>by re-running the parser generator.  The only lines of code you need to 
>touch are the places where your change affects the translation, and that 
>is often quite minimal.

I love BNF form, and I even wrote long ago a program that was
accepting a BNF description (and a very "clean" one, written
as you can find it in reference manuals of languages) and then
could check inputs for compliance with the grammar.

However when writing a compiler the grammar is just one part...
you do not have to just read the source. Spreading the meat of
the compiler is in my opinion worse than spreading the grammar...
it's like spreading the business logic of an application in
the buttons you press in a gui.

It's only a personal opinion, of course.

>Furthermore, naive implementation of recursive descent is fraught with a 
>few subtle perils to trip the novice and the unwary.  For instance, you 
>must carefully avoid left-recursive productions, or your parser may not 
>terminate.

That is something that never happened to me. Some trap I fell
in was for example writing tokenizers that recognized integers
with something like

   /-?\d+/

and then later bumping in "x-1" being tokenized as <ident><number>.

Those are not serious issues, however.

>Also, error-handling is tricky in recursive descent, because 
>much of the parser's state is implicit in stack frames that must be 
>correctly unwound when an error forces you to bail out.  If you're 
>writing in a language (like Python) with good automatic memory 
>management, the latter is less of an issue, but recursive descent 
>parsers written in languages without automatic memory management, like C 
>and C++, must contend mightily with this.

Here is an excerpt of a parser I wrote about a dozen years ago
in C. The grammar is for a complete programming language (a
language designed for the implementation of the server side
of a three-thiers client/business logic/RDBMS architecture).

      case -RW_IF :
	  SkipToken();
	  c=ParseExpr();
	  if (!ParseError && NextIs(-RW_THEN))
	    { t=ParseStat();
	      if (!ParseError)
		{ if (CurToken==-RW_ELSE)
		    { SkipToken(); e=ParseStat(); }
		  else
		    e=NULL;
		  r=NewIf(c,t,e);
		}
	      else
		{ Deref(t); Deref(c); }
	    }
	  else
	    Deref(c);
	  break;

This is the case for parsing IF-THEN-ELSE statement.
Surely it's a bit annoying to remember to do all those
"Deref" call in case of failure, but I wouldn't call this
"contend mightly". The parser for the whole language
(a general purpose programming language with support
for embedded SQL) is about 1000 lines of C.

>Of course, there is no silver bullet, but the availability of good LR(1) 
>and LALR(1) parser generators should not be discounted, even if the 
>theory behind them seems to be slightly complicated, on the surface.

Surely they're good for someone. I've to say I didn't really
invest a lot of time on shift-reduce parsers; but for the problems
I've been facing I found no serious reason for using those tools
instead of a recursive parser. Once a bit of low-level tricks
(like having current/skip instead of get/unget; or using
reference counters when the language is not providing them to
you) are in place things are really not complex at all.

Of course this is just my personal view, based on the experience
I had on the few languages I implemented. For example I never
dared to write a parser for C++: things like the rule that
says "if it can be interpreted as a declaration then it's a
declaration" really scare me (that is the rule that Scott Meyers
calls "the C++ most vexing parse" and implies that a C++ parser
has to swallow a potentially unlimited number of tokens before
deciding what is the semantic meaning for the very first of them).

In language I invented I never had the crazy idea of allowing
both:

   X x(...);
   X x = X(...);

for the price of introducing ambiguity with function declarations.

Note that if a grammar is that complex then even USERS of the
grammar will fall into the traps. This is very common for C++;
the following code snippet for example...

   double pi = 3.141592654;
   int x( int(pi) );

may trick many C++ programmers into thinking that an integer
variable named x is being initialized with value 3.

It's hard to get to this level of complexity with a recursive
descent parser ? Good ... I've another excuse to stay away
from pointless confusion ;-)


Andrea

PS: Ok ok ok... I'll give shift-reduce parser and their tools
    another look. May be it's just my laziness that is showing up
    and my brain that tries to find excuses for justifying it.


From richie at entrian.com  Tue Aug 24 11:18:36 2004
From: richie at entrian.com (Richie Hindle)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 16:18:36 +0100
Subject: python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
In-Reply-To: <t6GdnTYtX4VOyLbcRVn-vA@giganews.com>
References: <mailman.2274.1093330945.5135.python-list@python.org>	<z_idnSRcLoYq1LbcRVn-jg@giganews.com>
	<mailman.2280.1093356404.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<t6GdnTYtX4VOyLbcRVn-vA@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <7lmmi0htar1fv209kppk0vfquk0mqpnt0f@4ax.com>


[Istvan]
> what does:
> 
>  > It is not to be used in the stdlib ever.
> 
> mean in this context?

As I understand it, it means that no standard library code should take
advantage of the fact that repeated s1 += s2 operations are fast in CPython
2.4.  Instead, it should use the ''.join() idiom.

This seems reasonable - the standard library should work equally well across
all implementations of Python, and should serve as best-practice
documentation for writing "good" Python code.  My definition of "good" in
this context would include "works across all Python implementations without
unnecessary surprises".

-- 
Richie Hindle
richie at entrian.com



From nzanella at cs.mun.ca  Wed Aug 18 17:54:05 2004
From: nzanella at cs.mun.ca (Neil Zanella)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 14:54:05 -0700
Subject: multi-instance and classic singleton design patterns
Message-ID: <b68d2f19.0408181354.43821bd9@posting.google.com>

Hello,

I would be very interested in knowing how the following C++ multi-instance
singleton (AKA Borg) design pattern based code snippet can be neatly coded
in Python. While there may be somewhat unusual places where multi-instance 
singleton is more useful than plain singleton, it seems to me that the
former leads to less coding, so unless I can somehow package the
singleton pattern in a superclass (so I don't have to code it
explicityly in every singleton class I have), then I am more
interested in the multi-instance singleton design pattern.

Thanks,

Neil

#include <iostream>

class B {
  public:
    B() { }
    void foo() const {
      std::cout << x << std::endl;
    }
    void bar() {
      std::cout << y++ << std::endl;
    }
  private:
    static const int x = 0;
    static int y;
};

int B::y = 1;

int main() {
  B().foo();
  B().bar();
  B().foo();
  B().bar();
  B().bar();
}


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug  9 11:51:06 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 11:51:06 -0400
Subject: decorators as a special case of an @ operator?
In-Reply-To: <87llgocrgq.fsf@uwo.ca>
References: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>
	<87llgocrgq.fsf@uwo.ca>
Message-ID: <DdSdnQot5MbxAIrcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>

Dan Christensen wrote:

> I wonder what people think of the following crazy idea, which has two
> parts.
> 
> 1) Allow anonymous multi-line functions.  For definiteness, I'll use
>    the following syntax, but lambda or something else could be used
>    too:
> 
>    f = def (a,b,c):
>          d = a*b
>          return d + c

I think this is identical to the following code, isn't it?

     def f(a, b, c):
         d = a * b
         return d + c

[...]
> Presto, you have decorators:
> 
> f = decorator1 @
>     decorator2 @
>     def (a,b,c):
>         d = a*b
>         return d + c
> 
> And the function name is at the top, like some people prefer.

I think if we asked them, they would clarify that it is not
the name *alone* which is important, but the *definition*.
Roughly the code that says this:

    i-am-defining-a-function this-is-the-name other-stuff:

I believe those of us who prefer to see the name first really
prefer to see something we might call the _definition_ (and
"def" is well-named here) which includes a sign that we are
defining a function, very near the name, and preferably with
the argument list also very close (since it is generally quite
important to a reader).  Nothing should be more important than
the name, so it should be first, then the arguments and other
meta stuff, then the body.  Languages like C which put the
return types first are unfortunate in that the return type is
not as important as the name, yet usually obscures it.  (I
used to write the return type on the previous line, sometimes
indented once, to avoid this problem, but that's still not
the best solution.)

> - To avoid trailing backslashes, the parser would have to
>   automatically continue to the next line when a line ends in @.

Sounds like another special case, as I'm not sure Python does
this for anything right now except when there are matched
opening and closing symbols.

-Peter


From tim.peters at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 00:18:02 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 00:18:02 -0400
Subject: Why is SETUP_FINALLY uninterruptable[sic]?
In-Reply-To: <2JmdnSiV4NZzGL_cRVn-pg@lmi.net>
References: <2JmdnSiV4NZzGL_cRVn-pg@lmi.net>
Message-ID: <1f7befae040818211832b9c6c1@mail.gmail.com>

[David Pokorny]
> Whilst swimming through Python/ceval.c, I came upon the following:
>
> PyEval_EvalFrame(...) {
> ....
> <main interpreter loop>
> ....
>    if (--_Py_Ticker < 0) {
>        if (*next_instr == SETUP_FINALLY) {
>                                    /* Make the last opcode before
>                                       a try: finally: block uninterruptable. */
>               goto fast_next_opcode;
>        }
>        _Py_Ticker = _Py_CheckInterval;
>        tstate->tick_counter++;
> ....     <do "occasional" things like let other threads run, ... occurs every
> sys.getcheckinterval() bytecodes>
> }
> 
> I've been trying to find a good reason _why_ the main loop shouldn't perform
> the check at the usual time in the (highly rare) situation where SETUP_FINALLY
> occurs as the last instruction before a check.
> So far, I've managed to confuse myself even further and come up with another
> stumper: what makes SETUP_FINALLY more special than SETUP_LOOP and
> SETUP_EXCEPT?

Jeff Epler's answer was correct:  it has to do with asynchronous
exceptions.  However, it's extremely obscure, and deserves a much
better comment than it got (I won't hesitate much to rip that code
out, given that cryptic comment).  It's also unclear (as developed
later in this message thread) exactly what it does and doesn't protect
against.

See:

    http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2003-June/036318.html

for the only explanation that appears to exist.


From support at hotini.com  Fri Aug 27 03:10:51 2004
From: support at hotini.com (Hotini.Com)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 00:10:51 -0700
Subject: We got your message
Message-ID: <E1C0ast-0003Jt-5k@host39n.ipowerweb.com>

Hello and thank you for your message.
We'll try to get back to you as soon as we can.

---------------------------------------
 www.Hotini.Com - The Hotini.Com Staff
---------------------------------------


From npat at efault.net  Fri Aug 13 08:41:07 2004
From: npat at efault.net (Nick Patavalis)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 12:41:07 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<10ho7626f5f3f74@news.supernews.com>
	<slrncho8m9.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<10hp8ok1dg0ie08@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <slrnchpdn3.7ld.npat@gray.efault.net>

On 2004-08-13, John Roth <newsgroups at jhrothjr.com> wrote:
>
>Nick Patavalis <npat at efault.net> wrote:
>>
>> You 're right, I was maybe a bit too dogmatic on my point. But you
>> must accept that JIT-compilers are, nevertheless, compilers! They may
>> be more intelligent and more flexible than traditional "ahead of time"
>> compilers, but still they are fundamentally compilers. Furthermore,
>> for most cases, it might be possible for an AOT compiler to produce a
>> "binary" that doesn't contain the compiler itself.
>
> It's generally regarded as not worth doing, simply because
> JITs might compile different code for each time through a
> method if the signature changes dynamically.

What is regarded as not worth doing? I don't really understand this
remark?

>
> Declarations don't help unless they can provide a solid
> guarantee of the variable's type. If they can't, they're
> useless because the JIT has to insert the type checking
> code anyway.
>

Agreed! The only way to avoid type-checking at runtime, it to have
static typing, but nobody wants this, do they? Declarations though can
help by indication to the compiler what types of applications it's
worths to optimize (i.e. do the best you can for strings, but for ints
and foats I do want this code to be fast).

/npat


From glc at well.com  Tue Aug 24 13:05:01 2004
From: glc at well.com (Greg Chapman)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:05:01 GMT
Subject: J2 paper 0.2.1
References: <mailman.2180.1093238695.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <vesmi09d9ulq4nf1qiuhuo89iuinnkqgs9@4ax.com>


Note that this:

<token>:
    memoize
    classmethod
    synchronize
    funcattrs(author="Guido van Rossum")
def foo(cls, *args):
    pass

is probably broken, at least given most of the proposed implementations, in
which classmethod and staticmethod would have to be either first or last.  I
suppose one could automatically detect them and move them to the proper place.

Also this:

"In contrast, the current Python decorator proposal provides the exact
opposite--all decorators accept one function and return one function. Although
they are not required to return a new function, or change function signatures or
calling semantics, many will, including the most common decorators, classmethod
and staticmethod."

is wrong in that classmethod and staticmethod do not return functions (or even
callables), which is why they have to be in a special place.


The asymmetry between classmethod/staticmethod and other proposed decorators has
been bothering me for a while.  It seems to me that it might be better to extend
the def statement to allow (e.g.):

funcdef: [decorators] 'def' [NAME] NAME parameters ':' suite


where the first (optional) NAME above would match either "class" or "static":
anything else would cause the compiler to generate a SyntaxError (the idea is to
have context-senstive keywords like the "as" in imports.  Of course, "class" is
already a keyword; if this causes problems, one could use e.g. "classdef").  The
implementation (in com_funcdef) could either emit a new opcode (e.g.,
MAKE_DESCRIPTOR) after the decorator CALL_FUNCTIONS, or it could emit a
LOAD_GLOBAL (for classmethod or staticmethod) before com_decorators and an extra
CALL_FUNCTION after the decorator CALL_FUNCTIONS.

As I see it, the advantages of special treatment for classmethods and
staticmethods are 1) it removes the need to make sure they are declared in the
proper position among a list of decorators, 2) it is somewhat analogous to the
way static is used with methods in C# and Java (where it is part of the function
signature and not of any metadata) and 3) in most cases, it will remove the need
for the special decorator syntax (to be honest, I find all of the proposals
fairly ugly).

I'm sorry if this has been proposed before (I haven't had time to follow all the
discussions); it does not appear to be one of the options in the wiki, so I
thought I'd throw it out.

---
Greg Chapman



From jsaker at americanrelay.com  Fri Aug  6 12:00:40 2004
From: jsaker at americanrelay.com (James R. Saker Jr.)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 11:00:40 -0500
Subject: Queue qsize = unreliable?
Message-ID: <1091808040.15192.34.camel@localhost>

Thanks Peter, Mike & Michael on qsize - had a hunch it might be
"reliable but not advisable" in the aspect of queue data changing. 

Perhaps there's an easier way to accomplish what I'm attempting. I've
got a syslogd receptor that needs to:

1. have a thread sit on port 514 and receive input via syslog protocol
from various sources

2. receive input and put into a queue (ideally a persistent object so if
the receptor gets rebooted while there's work in the queue, data isn't
lost. i like the idea of ZODB's Persistence class for this - thoughts?)

3. have a thread sit and look for data in the queue. when data is found,
parse it and fire it off using BEEP to an upstream collector.

I've done an initial version of this using Postgresql for an
intermediary (and twisted's database interface to deal with blocking
issues), but having to load Postgresql on a syslog2beep receptor is
overkill. A ZODB Queue implemented in a threaded app would seem the
right way to go. Any thoughts?

Jamie




From http  Thu Aug 26 04:51:14 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 01:51:14 -0700
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
	<dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
	<aN5Xc.205341$M95.157379@pd7tw1no>
	<1gj4fb5.607xsc51izh8N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7xllg25lkt.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:
> There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.
> 
> Not leaving stylistic choice (which would lead to more than one obvious
> way to do it) is quite consonant with the Zen of Python.

Well, what you're left with is that doing it the one obvious way
doesn't work, and you have to do it in some contorted way instead.


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Sat Aug 28 22:08:57 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 04:08:57 +0200
Subject: regex into str
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2571.1093744862.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408290203530.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<mailman.2571.1093744862.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408290406250.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>

Jeff Epler schreef:

> This is intended to be impossible.

That i svery annoying.

> Even if you could assign to str.__div__ (and this is very deliberately and
> specifically disallowed) you would end up disappointed, because strings
> are immutable.  That means there's nowhere to store "the last match",
> no way to mutate the string with the "/=" operator, and also that the
> interpreter is free to use the same storage for two equal strings.

This works:

    a += 'x'

So this should too:

    a /= 'x'




Is there a way to tell Python that '' should be something else
than str?

-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From vincent at visualtrans.de  Fri Aug 13 01:11:44 2004
From: vincent at visualtrans.de (vincent wehren)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 07:11:44 +0200
Subject: Print Special Symbols in Tk GUI
References: <cfh9pr$fnb$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <cfhids$sr5$1@news5.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>


"Bart Nessux" <bart_nessux at hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:cfh9pr$fnb$1 at solaris.cc.vt.edu...
> Using tkinter to create a Python version of Microsoft's winver. Works
> great... how can I print the copyright symbol (c) and the registered (R)
> symbol into the GUI?

Consider using unicode(\u) or unicode name (\n{name goes here} escapes:

import tkMessageBox
import Tkinter
root = Tkinter.Tk()
root.withdraw()
copyright_symbol = u"\u00A9"
# or use: copyright_symbol = u"\N{COPYRIGHT SIGN}"
registered_symbol = u"\u00AE"
# or use: registered_symbol = u"\N{REGISTERED SIGN}"
msg = u"Copyright: %s, Registered: %s" % (copyright_symbol,
registered_symbol)
tkMessageBox.showinfo("Info", msg)
#root.mainloop()

Regards,
--

Vincent Wehren

>
> Thanks,
> Bart




From AntiVir at yalta.us  Wed Aug 11 19:33:33 2004
From: AntiVir at yalta.us (AntiVir at yalta.us)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 02:33:33 +0300
Subject: AntiVir ALERT [mail from: "MAILER-DAEMON" <postmaster@python.org>]
Message-ID: <200408112333.i7BNXXmA029284@yalta.us>

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * AntiVir ALERT * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
????????? ????????? ????? ? ??????????????, ??????? ????????? ????? ??????!

???????????: "MAILER-DAEMON" <postmaster at python.org>
???????? ??????: Worm/Mydoom.m	

????? ?? ???? ?????????? ??????????.

? ?????????;
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????.: +38(0654)231094
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email: support at yalta.us


Mail-Info:
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 Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 23:32:15 +0300
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For more information see http://www.antivir.de/ or http://www.hbedv.com/


From a6c21487 at telus.net  Sun Aug 22 19:31:00 2004
From: a6c21487 at telus.net (pgw)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 23:31:00 GMT
Subject: Parsing Python code with a Python Program
Message-ID: <U0aWc.46940$fz2.5801@edtnps89>

Hello,

I would like to pass strings to a Python
application and have them executed as though
they were lines of code.

Is 'exec()' the function that I am looking for
and/or is there an example of this somewhere?

Thanks,

Seaweed



From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 19 12:46:34 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:46:34 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1963.1092927903.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1963.1092927903.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <r_idncc3e9dtRbncRVn-sQ@powergate.ca>

brianc at temple.edu wrote:
> -Started doing HTML for school projects in 9th grade. 
> -Program my TI-82 (basic?) to help me cheat in classes. 
> --Failed 10th grade and dropped out of high school. 

So... you didn't program it correctly?  <wink>

> -That didn't scale well enough for the large datasets I was
> using, started using ZOPE. (If you live in MD, check this out,
>   I designed/wrote the entire thing: www.marylandlantax.org)

Apparently should be http://www.marylandlandtax.org/ (note extra "d").

Cheers, :-)
-Peter


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sun Aug  1 20:04:34 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 20:04:34 -0400
Subject: transforming a list into a string
References: <pan.2004.07.31.12.27.23.547000@hotmail.com><roy-982174.13075831072004@reader1.panix.com><cegqdu$2fb$1@sea.gmane.org><mailman.1020.1091310303.5135.python-list@python.org><roy-FDE83B.19595731072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<1f7befae040731171654c11ec6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cek0ej$4vf$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Tim Peters" <tim.peters at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1f7befae040731171654c11ec6 at mail.gmail.com...
> Absolutely.  Note that Peter Otten previously posted a lovely O(N)
> solution in this thread, although it may be too clever for some
> tastes:
>
> >>> from itertools import izip
> >>> items = ['1','2','7','8','12','13']
> >>> it = iter(items)
> >>> ",".join(["{%s,%s}" % i for i in izip(it, it)])
> '{1,2},{7,8},{12,13}'

While this usage of izip(it,it) is clever (and zip(it,it) behaves the
same), it *breaks* the documented behavior of zip and hence of izip, and
depends on seemingly inessential implementation details of zip/izip (which
is only documented for izip).

The Lib Manual 2.1 zip entry calls the args 'sequences' whereas it should
say 'iterables'.  It goes on "This function returns a list of tuples, where
the i-th tuple contains the i-th element from each of the argument
sequences. ... The returned list is truncated in length to the length of
the shortest argument sequence."  In fact, even back in 2.2:
>>> it = iter([1,2,3,4])
>>> zip(it,it)
[(1, 2), (3, 4)]

I believe the definition of zip would allow iterator inputs to be handled
by list()ing them (for instance, left to right).  A reason to do this might
be to fix the otherwise unknown lengths so that the min could be determined
so that the output list could be preallocated.  If this were done, however,
zip(it,it) would output [] instead.

If zip were to build output tuples from the end, which the definition would
also seem to allow, then zip(it,it) above would be [(2,1), (4,3)] instead.
Zip's behavior seems to me undefined for this corner case.

So the doc needs to be updated to specify the args as iterables, not
restricted to sequences, and qualify the 'usual' behavior as depending on
having distinct iterator inputs.

The 5.14.1 Itertool functions izip entry says simply "Like zip() except
that it returns an iterator instead of a list."  It also give 'equivalent'
Python code which happens to pin down the behavior for this corner case.  I
wonder if this code should really be taken as determinative documentation
rather than as illustrative of possible implementation.  (I may ask RH if
need be.)  If the former, then the zip doc could reference the izip
equivalent code as specifying its behavior.

Terry J. Reedy





From daniel at syrinx.net  Mon Aug 16 12:21:03 2004
From: daniel at syrinx.net (Daniel Ellison)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:21:03 -0400
Subject: Flython?
In-Reply-To: <sMednfL4zqTR3b3cRVn-rA@powergate.ca>
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
	<411cbcb1$0$3894$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>
	<W9qdnWhf8u7MI4HcRVn-ow@powergate.ca>
	<30260531.0408131856.5ef3b0d3@posting.google.com>
	<sMednfL4zqTR3b3cRVn-rA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <2oc547F86br8U1@uni-berlin.de>

Peter Hansen wrote:
> simo wrote:
> 
>> There's a few libraries for making SVG files in PHP, so there may be
>> Python versions too, but if you want ActionScript then I guess you're
>> determined to go with Flash instead.....
> 
> 
> Well, SVG and ActionScript have very little, if anything, in
> common.  On the other hand SVG has much overlap with the rest
> of the "Flash" system (taken as a nebulous whole), and when
> supplemented with Javascript, in systems that can handle that,
> it starts becoming somewhat similar in many ways.
> 
> On the other hand, so far I haven't seen signs that SVG
> support has advanced enough to really be on par with the
> capabilities (mostly in terms of speed and simplicity) of
> the little bit of Flash/ActionScript that interests me.

Not to mention the size and ubiquity of the browser plugin.

> 
> My personal goal with this (and I believe Dan's as well)
> is to be able to create GUI software using ActionScript
> to write (roughly) the "view" and "controller" portions,
> with the back end ("model") implemented elsewhere (i.e.
> on a server) with Python.

Yes, I'd have to agree with that. The point isn't to get a free 
replacement for the Flash authoring environment. I own a copy of Flash, 
and know quite well how to use it: I've been using and programming Flash 
since v4. No, we want a Pythonic way of producing Flash "swf" files, and 
in doing so, simplifying (at least) the "view" considerably, and at the 
same time creating a much more appropriate interface for web applications.

> 
> Why?  Well, consider the alternatives.  D/HTML plus
> Javascript gives you the same basic structure, but at
> the cost of a mostly crappy kind of interface which
> violates all kinds of UI conventions, feels awkward,
> often runs slowly, and is a bitch to construct and
> maintain.

Peter has on occasion been the unfortunate audience of my rants on the 
current state of web application interfaces. I've been pushing the idea 
of a Flash client for years. There seems to be (there *is*) a prejudice 
toward Flash, probably due to those *very* annoying ads on web pages.

> 
> Something like wxPython is pretty good for fixing most
> of that, but then you actually have to install software
> on the client machines, which is pretty much the thing
> you want to avoid when you are trying to do client/server.
> 
> The idea is *not* to do pretty animations ala JibJab.com
> but "plain old GUI software" (POGS, to steal from Bell
> and coin a phrase at the same time).  SVG really isn't
> up to the task (yet), and even if it is I suspect there
> may be really serious performance issues for some time
> to come.  Flash has a compact bytecode, while SVG comes
> as XML.  Need I say more?

Nope! :)

> 
> -Peter


Dan


From antispam  Tue Aug 31 16:59:19 2004
From: antispam (Maboroshi)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:59:19 -0700
Subject: Bandwidth Calculator
Message-ID: <10j9plefkvdfq96@corp.supernews.com>

Hi I was wondering if there was anyway of determing the use of Bandwidth on
a remote computer in python through the ip address

Any Ideas Cheers

Maboroshi






From sdeibel at wingware.com  Tue Aug 17 22:12:13 2004
From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 22:12:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Python Success Stories Update
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0408172146560.3125-100000@hedgehog>

Hi,

I just wanted to let y'all know that the Python Success Stories
collection has nine new additions:

http://www.pythonology.com/success

These 28 stories include significant testimonials that can make
it easier to sell technical decision-makers (i.e., your boss)
on Python.

Whether you're building an online singles community or an air 
traffic control system -- be sure to check it out!

Also In Print
-------------

Twelve stories, including the new ones, have been included in the 
second O'Reilly Python Success Stories booklet, which recently went 
into print and should be available at O'Reilly exhibit booths at 
conferences.

Thanks,

Stephan Deibel

--
Wingware
Wing IDE for Python
Advancing Software Development

www.wingware.com


From franbarlow at mail.com  Thu Aug 12 05:20:12 2004
From: franbarlow at mail.com (Fran)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 02:20:12 -0700
Subject: Help understanding Scheme's syntax, procedures and calls
Message-ID: <95f168b0.0408120120.31433dc7@posting.google.com>

I'm trying to understand a functional language code fragment so I can
explain its syntax and workings to my non English-speaking background
neighbour, who is doing her finals.

What in heaven's name is this code fragment intending? (In English
prose if possible).

It looks like a fragment from a language called "scheme"

(define (this n)
	(if (=n 0)
	         0
	          (= n (this (- n 1)))))
(define (f1 a b)
	(if >b a)
	       0
	       (+ b (f1 a (+ b 1)))))
(define (that n)
(f1 n1)

a)	Describe the processing that occurs during the evaluation of the
expression (this 4)
b)	Explain why the expression (=(this n)(that n) always evaluates to
true when n is a positive integer.
c)	Write a fragment of code in the above language that adds up all the
integers within a given range, not including the two numbers
specified. For example, if the specified range was 4 ? 9 then code
should add 5? 8.

Suggested answers:

a)

This 4 call started
As n-1=3 a recursive This 3 call is started
As n-1=2 a This 2 call starts
As n-1=1 a This 1 call starts
As n-1=0 a This 0 call is started and is returned as n=0
This 1 call is resolved by adding 1+0
This 2 call is resolved by adding 2+1
This 3 call is resolved by adding 3+3
Finally 10 is returned when This 4 call is resolved by adding 4 + 6.

I no more grasp the pattern of the suggested answer than the question,
and am much less in a position to explain it to anyone.

b)

Both the This and the That functions have the same output, and
furthermore both functions result in infinite recursion if n<0. When n
is a positive integer, the This function calculates
(n+
(3+(2+(1+(0)))) and the that function calculates
(1+(2+(3+
(n=(0)))). Both will always result in the same answer. The
list (=a b) only evaluates to true when a=b, as a does equal b the
list always evaluates to true for n>0.

Perhaps this answer will make more sense when I understand the code
fragment.

c) 

Solution 1 (without existing functions)

(define (internal-range a b)
(if(>=(+ a 1)b)
         0
        (+(= a 1)(internal-range(+ a 1)b))))

Solution 2 using existing functions. And assuming a<b

(define (internal-range2 a b)
(-(this b) (this a)b))

Solution 3 using existing functions and dealing with a>b case
(define (internal-range3 a b)
(if (< a b)
(-(this b) (this a)b)
(-(this a) (this b)a)))

What is the role of the "0" character in solution 1 and the initial
fragment? What is the syntax rule being followed by the parentheses?

They note that the code was tested by "Dr Scheme" at
www.plt-scheme.org




Thanks


From gherron at islandtraining.com  Wed Aug 18 11:56:31 2004
From: gherron at islandtraining.com (Gary Herron)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 08:56:31 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <200408180856.31830.gherron@islandtraining.com>

On Wednesday 18 August 2004 05:20 am, Lucas Raab wrote:
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....

52 years old, programming for 35, programming Python for about 10.

Dr. Gary Herron




From Vexira at email.beaufortco.com  Thu Aug 26 12:30:20 2004
From: Vexira at email.beaufortco.com (Vexira at email.beaufortco.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:30:20 -0400
Subject: Vexira ALERT [your mail: "Re: Mail Authentification"]
Message-ID: <200408261630.i7QGUKAZ012497@email.beaufortco.com>

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Vexira ALERT * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
This version of Vexira MailArmor is licensed and full featured.

Vexira has detected the following in a mail from your address:

	Worm/NetSky.P	

The mail was not delivered.

Your computer may be infected with a virus! Please visit
Central Command at http://www.centralcommand.com and obtain a copy
of Vexira AntiVirus now.


Mail-Info:
--8<--
 From: python-list at python.org
 To: arronandhollie at beaufortco.com
 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:30:13 -0400
 Subject: Re: Mail Authentification
--8<--



From apardon at forel.vub.ac.be  Thu Aug 26 09:55:59 2004
From: apardon at forel.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 13:55:59 GMT
Subject: Inline Conditionals?
References: <mailman.2307.1093385983.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<jt6dnb18R-cz6LDcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
	<1gj4rpq.1oyt89b14xvbdqN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <slrncirqvf.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>

Op 2004-08-26, Alex Martelli schreef <aleaxit at yahoo.com>:
> Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
>
>> Joshua Ginsberg wrote:
>> 
>> > Is there any plan to include inline conditionals in Python? For example:
>> > 
>> > def isNegative(x):
>> >     return x < 0 ? True : False
>> 
>> This is a FAQ: 
>> 
>> Newbies, please consider reading the several FAQs that you will find
>> at http://www.python.org/doc/faq/ before posting questions which
>> might be answered there (i.e. just about anything).
>
> Peter's right.  And Joshua's example shows how wise the BDFL was in
> ruling out ternaries: sure, good programmers might occasionally have
> found good uses for them, but we' have paid that with a LOT of horrid
> code like that -- I've seen lots like that in C & its ilk, too.

When using list comprehension not having a ternary operator can be
a PITA. It is of course possible I miss something but how am I
supposed to do the following:

   [ x.property ? foo(x) : bar(x) for x in Somelist ]

-- 
Antoon Pardon


From AntiVir at yalta.us  Mon Aug 16 12:21:01 2004
From: AntiVir at yalta.us (AntiVir at yalta.us)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:21:01 +0300
Subject: AntiVir ALERT [mail from: mail@izolit.ru]
Message-ID: <200408161621.i7GGL1S6020445@yalta.us>

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * AntiVir ALERT * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
????????? ????????? ????? ? ??????????????, ??????? ????????? ????? ??????!

???????????: mail at izolit.ru
???????? ??????: Worm/Mydoom.m	

????? ?? ???? ?????????? ??????????.

? ?????????;
        ???????? ????????
 ???.: +38(0654)271828
????.: +38(0654)231094
  web: www.yaltainfo.com
email: support at yalta.us


Mail-Info:
--8<--
 From: mail at izolit.ru
 To: python-list at python.org
 Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:19:04 +0300
 Subject: Mail System Error - Returned Mail
--8<--

This version of AntiVir is licensed for private and non-commercial use.

--
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Copyright (C) 1994-2003 by H+BEDV Datentechnik GmbH. All rights reserved.
For more information see http://www.antivir.de/ or http://www.hbedv.com/


From flupke at nonexistingdomain.com  Thu Aug 19 09:35:25 2004
From: flupke at nonexistingdomain.com (flupke)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:35:25 GMT
Subject: timer problem
In-Reply-To: <2ojmcfFbfpq0U1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <7j1Vc.218972$p67.10887223@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<2ojmcfFbfpq0U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <x02Vc.219004$OI5.10800254@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

Diez B. Roggisch wrote:

> You assume that Timer is looping - it isn't. So make your command start a
> Timer itself, like this:
> 
> def command():
>     print "called"
>     t = threading.Timer(2, command )
>     t.start()
> 
> Or use a Thread, with an endless loop in the run()-method that sleeps for
> two secdonds. That spares you the overhead of thread-creation.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Diez

This method (calling the Timer again) indeed works but to effectively 
cancel the thread then, i need to make the thread t a class object and
i need to define the command function as a real function as opposed to
an anonymous function (what i tried to do).
Then it might be a better sollution to indeed create my own Timer class.

Benedict


From robin at reportlab.com  Wed Aug 18 11:09:24 2004
From: robin at reportlab.com (Robin Becker)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:09:24 +0100
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <41237124.4060600@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>

Lucas Raab wrote:

> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....
> 
> 
57, used to build my own logic using gas discharge tubes :)

I doubt I'll bother to learn C#
-- 
Robin Becker


From klappnase at web.de  Tue Aug 31 19:50:43 2004
From: klappnase at web.de (klappnase)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 16:50:43 -0700
Subject: Setting up Tix
References: <726ee98e.0408240250.6cd06aa2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <a7a67196.0408311550.257aa30@posting.google.com>

bncarper at cs.com (Bob C) wrote in message news:<726ee98e.0408240250.6cd06aa2 at posting.google.com>...
> I get the following message when tryin to setup Tix on Linux rh7.3:
> 
> >>> import Tix
> >>> root = Tix.Tk()
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
>   File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/lib-tk/Tix.py", line 210, in __init__
>     self.tk.eval('package require Tix')
> _tkinter.TclError: couldn't load file "/usr/lib/libtix":
> /usr/lib/libtix.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or
> directory
> >>> 
> 
> I have libtix8.1.8.4.a and libtix8.1.8.4.so in /usr/local/lib.  I
> guess I'm not sure how to set the varibles to correctly point at the
> /usr/local directory.
> 
> Bob

Hi Bob,

have you tried to simply use a symbolic link:

ln -s /usr/local/lib/libtix8.1.8.4.so /usr/lib/libtix.so

Michael


From jbors at mail.ru  Fri Aug 27 16:35:31 2004
From: jbors at mail.ru (Dmitry Borisov)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:35:31 -0700
Subject: Sound file manipulation in Python
References: <uu0upzj72.fsf@yahoo.co.uk> <10isu157sfk3c2@corp.supernews.com>
	<uk6vk4f2f.fsf@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <10iv6ompct4ns10@corp.supernews.com>

"Paul Moore" <pf_moore at yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:uk6vk4f2f.fsf at yahoo.co.uk...
> "Dmitry Borisov" <jbors at mail.ru> writes:
>
> > You may try to use pymedia: http://pymedia.sourceforge.net
>
> Looks nice. I'll give it a try.
>
> > There is no writing at this point( but you may add it though ),
>
> Not something I need right now.
>
> > also FLAC not supported also.
>
> A pity, but not as important to me as Ogg. How hard is it to add
> codecs to pymedia?

I don't see any special handling for flac. So I suppose it may use regular
raw format for demuxing. In this case, it will be trivial to include
libavcode/flac.c from ffmpeg into pymedia. No changes. For meta tags, you
may need to do a small research and write a simple parser.
Dmitry/




From mahesh at privacy.net  Mon Aug 23 23:09:02 2004
From: mahesh at privacy.net (Mahesh Padmanabhan)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:09:02 -0600
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WE
	DONE?
References: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <mahesh-44123C.21090223082004@individual.net>

In article <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720 at fe1.texas.rr.com>,
 "Paul McGuire" <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> wrote:

[snip]

As an occasional lurker, I haven't had a chance to participate in the 
discussion about decorator syntax but for what its worth, I prefer the 
J2 syntax over the @pie syntax. It just seems more natural to me. When I 
first looked at the @pie syntax, I hoped that Guido would not include it 
as it reminded me too much of Perl black magic.

Anyway, my vote is for the J2 option and "using" as the keyword seems to 
be the best fit for this option.

Regards,
Mahesh


From heikowu at ceosg.de  Thu Aug 12 02:38:36 2004
From: heikowu at ceosg.de (Heiko Wundram)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:38:36 +0200
Subject: Arranging a dependency tree
In-Reply-To: <200408120834.25714.heikowu@ceosg.de>
References: <6ccff37a.0408111831.6eb25a4e@posting.google.com>
	<61ESc.3831$%B.1788@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>
	<200408120834.25714.heikowu@ceosg.de>
Message-ID: <200408120838.36515.heikowu@ceosg.de>

Am Donnerstag, 12. August 2004 08:34 schrieb Heiko Wundram:
> I bow before the master. ;-)

No, but seriously, I guess I shouldn't be the one to teach computer science or 
maths... I'm much better at "real" programming. And that's why Python is so 
much fun: just try it out and see... :-)

Heiko.
(who is currently writing his first big exams in medicine)


From Sibylle.Koczian at Bibliothek.Uni-Augsburg.de  Wed Aug 18 11:00:04 2004
From: Sibylle.Koczian at Bibliothek.Uni-Augsburg.de (Sibylle Koczian)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:00:04 +0200
Subject: Databases: Getting values by column name
In-Reply-To: <nvfav1-1nq.ln1@pilz.hasos.com>
References: <o6f9v1-6si.ln1@pilz.hasos.com>
	<mailman.1802.1092753679.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<u62av1-o3k.ln1@pilz.hasos.com>
	<rpydnSodp-Q1Gb_cRVn-pg@giganews.com>
	<nvfav1-1nq.ln1@pilz.hasos.com>
Message-ID: <2oh97lFao348U1@uni-berlin.de>

Robert Ferber schrieb:
>>As other pointed out you have everything you need, using dtuple.py at:
>>
>>http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/81252
> 
> 
> Of course I looked at that webpage, but if I'm not mistaken, mx.ODBC.Windows
> is only available on Windows which makes it useless for me, I can not find
> a ODBC Package for my Linux distribution and the webpage doesn't give the
> slightest hint what the package name is (which probably would make
> searching for it too easy) or where to get it.
> 

I can see no reason why the recipe shouldn't work just as well with 
MySQLdb instead of mx.ODBC. And the docstrings for the dtuple classes 
state clearly that they work with results "from a DB-API fetch*() 
method". No mention of a specific package here.

In fact, the docstring for TupleDescriptor even says "Note: the term 
database tuple is rather specific; in actuality the tuple may have come 
from non-database sources and/or generated by a process wholly unrelated 
to databases."

> My distribution (SUSE) comes with dozens of Python-packages, but none have
> "mx" or "odbc" in their name.
> 
But it does come with MySQLdb IIRC.

HTH
Koczian


From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Mon Aug  9 19:18:34 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 16:18:34 -0700
Subject: Purely emotional perspective
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.09.21.20.59.953540@hotmail.com>
References: <10hf3oaltbo7o74@corp.supernews.com>
	<AYSdnQ2xPrfFPYrcRVn-iA@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1400.1092070428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<XqSdnTW-4KvRIIrcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
	<pan.2004.08.09.21.20.59.953540@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <10hg1hg1pidqs96@corp.supernews.com>

Paramjit Oberoi wrote:

>I have to say though, that @ decorators are starting to grow on me
>even though I was strongly against that syntax at first.
>  
>

Personally, I'm seeing more and more usefulness in decorators as the 
discussion progresses, and I'm seeing more reasons why the most obvious 
alternatives to the currently proposed syntax are not optimal.  But I 
still find the current syntax to be *extremely* (painfully) 
uncomfortable -- this sort of prefix syntax is unlike anything else *I* 
can think of in Python.

I'm particularly worried about the proposals of using this as metadata 
for things like author -- that seems to be begging for almost every 
function to use half a dozen or more decorators (accepts, returns, 
author, design date, last revision date, etc., etc.) which will (IMO) 
seriously degrade code readability.  (This syntax is okay for one or two 
decorators, but more than that quickly becomes obfuscatory.)

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From cjw at sympatico.ca  Thu Aug 12 20:09:34 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 20:09:34 -0400
Subject: Version 2.3.3 vs 2.4.2a Timings
Message-ID: <0FTSc.20734$a65.922680@news20.bellglobal.com>

These timing results with Fibbonacci, using and not using memoize might 
be of interest.

Version 2.3.3   - Unwrapped is using interation in place of recursion
C:\Test>python tFib.py
Unwrapped, using fib:               7.52 usec/pass
Raw Fibonacci:                      252.66 usec/pass
Fibonacci with old deco:            3.18 usec/pass

Version 2.4.2a
C:\Test>\Python24\python.exe tFib.py
Unwrapped, using fib:               4.92 usec/pass
Fibonacci, using @memoize:          2.89 usec/pass
Raw Fibonacci:                      214.11 usec/pass
Fibonacci with old deco:            2.90 usec/pass

Conclusions:
2.4.2a provides a significant speedup for these cases.
The unwrapped approach is much better than recursive fibonacci, but not 
as good as with memoise.

This is based on Dan Bishop's code.

Colin W.



From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Tue Aug  3 06:42:32 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay Brar)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 20:42:32 +1000
Subject: [XML-SIG] value error when parsing XML
In-Reply-To: <200408030457.i734vuQ6058587@chilled.skew.org>
References: <200408030457.i734vuQ6058587@chilled.skew.org>
Message-ID: <410F6C18.10506@mail.usyd.edu.au>

Mike Brown wrote:

>Ajay Brar wrote:
>  
>
>>i get a value error when parsing an xml file. This is because it can't 
>>find the DTD -
>>ValueError: unknown url type: ../um_xml/um.dtd
>>
>> From what i have discovered in the archives, this happens when your XML 
>>and DTD file are not in your current directory
>>i have the directory structure
>>home
>>      user - this is where i am running the script from
>>      um_xml- this is where the xml and dtd are
>>
>>can someone please tell me how i can workaround this problem. the script 
>>executes fine when the xml and dtd files are in user/. But i don't 
>>really want to put them there.
>>any ideas?
>>
>>    
>>
>
>The "current directory" / "where you are running the script from"
>has no bearing on the interpretation of URLs in the document (not
>directly, anyway).
>
>If both files are in the same location, you only need to refer to the
>DTD via the URL um.dtd (no add'l path info prepended to it).
>  
>
I have no additional path info prepended to the um.dtd
my xml file goes - <?xml version='1.0' encoding='utf-8'?><!DOCTYPE um 
SYSTEM 'um.dtd'>.....
like i said, earlier the dtd and the xml are in the same directory.
the script that parses it is in a different directory. it all works fine 
if the dtd is in the same directory as the parsing script, but otherwise 
i get the Value Error.

cheers
ajay




-- 
Ajay Brar
CS Honours 2004
Smart Internet Technology Research Group

http://www.it.usyd.edu.au/~abrar1



From cjw at sympatico.ca  Thu Aug 26 11:07:03 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:07:03 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <MvbXc.23341$DG.1155452@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com> <412cc31c$1@news.012.net.il>
	<MvbXc.23341$DG.1155452@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <s0nXc.28167$DG.1292279@news20.bellglobal.com>

Apologies! One response was more than enough.

Colin J. Williams wrote:
> 
> 
> Avner Ben wrote:
> 
>> I believe putting the decorator list before the function header is 
>> generally a bad design decision. While it may make parsing-related 
>> sense, it violates Python's greatest asset: being executable 
>> pseudocode. The way I see it, the latter quality means being able to 
>> look at the code and see clearly and immediately what requirements 
>> from the real world the code was written the serve. Functions and 
>> methods are major code entities that are naturally expected to 
>> represent discrete functional requirements from the code, to this or 
>> that level of detail. I expect to learn from the method name, the 
>> class it is in and the list of arguments it takes, everything I need 
>> to know about the functional requirement it implements. If that is not 
>> enough, I will look at the docstring, if present. Everything else the 
>> method has to offer is conveniently hidden below. Decorators of the 
>> type discussed recently - with the exception of staticmethod and 
>> classmethod - are technical detail of the kind I would like to see 
>> hidden below. Putting them on top, prior to the what the method does 
>> (its name etc.) compromises the design quality of the code, reducing 
>> it to yet another abbreviation-based, self-centered technical 
>> scripting language.
>> The one esception I saw was J2, which, although putting the decorators 
>> before the proper method header, uses indentation to state "this is an 
>> extra piece of technicality which you are free to ignore - the def is 
>> below."
>>
>> My vote: C2, E4, J2
>>
>>     Avner.
> 
> Your expectation list makes sense to me.  There is merit in having the 
> docstring before the 'decorator', i.e. E4
> 
> Colin W.
> 



From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug 30 17:46:12 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 21:46:12 GMT
Subject: Size of a remote URL
References: <ch06ca$v17@odak26.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <4133a024$0$8090$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-30, Justin <justin__devine at hotmail.com> wrote:

[...]

Here's one of your problems:

Your working code uses this URL:

 http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~harnad/Temp/Ariadne-RAE.doc

Your broken code uses this URL:

 http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~harnad/temp/ariadne-rae.doc

It doesn't matter whether it's inside a loop or outside a loop.
It doesn't matter wither it's a literal or a reference to a
list element: you've GOT TO SPELL THE URL CORRECTLY.

Look at the two URLs carefully.  Notice any differences between
the one from your "working" code and the one from your "broken"
code?

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  When you get your
                                  at               PH.D. will you get able to
                               visi.com            work at BURGER KING?


From simon.NO.dahlbacka.SPAM at abo.fi  Thu Aug 12 14:32:19 2004
From: simon.NO.dahlbacka.SPAM at abo.fi (Simon Dahlbacka)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 21:32:19 +0300
Subject: Keyword substitution in string
References: <I2CH9G.I09@news.muni.cz>
Message-ID: <411bb7eb$1@newsflash.abo.fi>


"Ondrej Krajicek" <krajicek at ics.muni.cz> wrote in message
news:I2CH9G.I09 at news.muni.cz...
>
> Hello,
>
> in my application, I want to do keyword substituion in
> a string from a dictionary. The problem is indeed
> easy to solve, but seems quite common to me, so I wonder
> wheter there is already a function in Python which
> does just that.
>
> I want to substitute values for keywords in strings,
> the keywords and values are stored in a dictionary.
>
> Something like this:
>
> def subst(string, dict):
> ...
>
> where:
>
> subst('Hello, <key1> <key2>!', {'key1': 'Python', 'key2': 'rules' })
>
> gives:
>
> 'Hello, Python rules!'
>
> The keyword quoting style does not matter.

Are you aware of:

"Hello %(key1)s %(key2)s!" % {"key1":"Python", "key2":"rules"}

?




From luismg at gmx.net  Tue Aug 10 09:15:15 2004
From: luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 06:15:15 -0700
Subject: IronPython-0.6 is now available!
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1398.1092065544.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <278de0e.0408100515.5fd3740c@posting.google.com>

This is from Ironpython's website:

"Integrated with the Common Language Runtime - IronPython code can
easily use CLR libraries and Python classes can extend CLR classes."

"Managed and verifiable - IronPython generates verifiable assemblies
with no dependencies on native libraries that can run in environments
which require verifiable managed code."

"Optionally static - IronPython also supports static compilation of
Python code to produce static executables (.exe's) that can be run
directly or static libraries (.dll's) that can be called from other
CLR languages including C#, VB, managed C++ and many more.  Note:
static compilation is only partially implemented in the 0.6 public
release.  This will need further development before being useful"

So this should clear most of your concerns.
The good thing about the future stable version of Ironpython, is that
your code will be able to interoperate with code written in other .NET
 compliant languages, and its performance will be better than the
standard implementation.
Note that Jim Hugunin is now working for the CLR team, so he will have
full access to the inner "secrets" of this technology to improve it
and make it more suitable for scripting languages.
What's more, there are some new features for the future version of the
CLR that are specially suited for this purpose: lightweight code
generation, for example.


From shulmang at colorado.edu  Tue Aug 17 21:42:55 2004
From: shulmang at colorado.edu (Garett Shulman)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:42:55 -0600
Subject: mp3 fft with python
Message-ID: <4122B41F.1020303@colorado.edu>

Hello, I would like to do a fft on an mp3 in python. I beleive I have 
all of the fft stuff straight in my mind but am not sure of the best way 
to get the sample data into a python array. I ran accross a web site a 
while back which suggested using sox to convert a wav file into a raw 
sample file and then open the raw file with python. However, I did not 
bookmark this site when I came accross it and cannot seem to find it 
now. If anyone has any suggestions as to a good way to get sample data 
out of an mp3 and into a python array for an fft I would greatly 
appreciate your suggestions. Thanks a lot. -Garett


From jaydonnell at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 23 13:02:06 2004
From: jaydonnell at yahoo.com (Jay Donnell)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 10:02:06 -0700
Subject: urllib hangs
Message-ID: <a6fdfd6b.0408230902.2afc0e08@posting.google.com>

This is a basic version of my code

for url in urls:
    fp = urllib.urlopen(url)
    lines = fp.readlines()

    #print lines
    for line in lines:
        #print line
        if(reUrl.search(line)):
            print 'found'
            return 1
        else:
            print 'not found'
            return 0

this hangs occasionally for some certain url's. If I do a ctrl-c
(linux) it will move on to the next url. How can I get this to timeout
and move on to the next url.


From davecook at nowhere.net  Mon Aug 23 13:46:50 2004
From: davecook at nowhere.net (Dave Cook)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:46:50 GMT
Subject: 100 % portable ?
References: <rp_Vc.221989$xO.10939509@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<sl1nv1-7jm.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com> <2otm5mFed44hU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <slrncikbc9.251.davecook@localhost.localdomain>

In article <2otm5mFed44hU1 at uni-berlin.de>, Bernd Kaiser wrote:

> You can use os.environ["HOME"], this will return the user's home dir.

Doesn't work in win9x AFAIK.  I do notice that some people are starting to
require XP for their apps.

Dave Cook


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Sun Aug 22 15:27:51 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 19:27:51 GMT
Subject: On consensus decision-making (was Re: Alternative decorator
	syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WEDONE?)
References: <mailman.2153.1093185119.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<z-adnRDpSpoTJrXcRVn-iw@powergate.ca>
	<du7n00ngmeh.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>
Message-ID: <v8shi09cmrtp8s9cumhsjth617494k4j7u@4ax.com>

On 22 Aug 2004 19:36:38 +0300, Ville Vainio <ville at spammers.com>
wrote:

>
>Obviously people who don't want any syntax at all should be ignored in
>the consensus building process...

I hate to contribute to a change in tone to what has been a pretty
civil controversy, all things considered, and Anthony's private hate
mail notwithstanding.

But that to me is a stupid remark.

We have syntax.  If we did not already have it, one could propose it
like any other syntax being proposed. If concensus would form around
that syntax  (it won't , among other reasons because the rules of the
game won't allow it) it's just consensus forming around a syntax.
Which is what the exercise is supposed to be about.

I have heard implicit and explicit threats on python-dev in the case
no new syntax made it into 2.4 - assumedly by people who *really* hate
some extra typing.  It is not unreasonable to assume that vehemence is
a good deal of what brought us here.  

I never made any threats about the non-acceptance of my non-Peps.  Or
anybody else's.

I guess we - among other things - can all have our own sense of what
makes a good citizen in PythonLand.

Ours apparently diverge.

Art


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Mon Aug  9 09:46:26 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 08:46:26 -0500
Subject: Advanced printing using win32ui in python - help!
References: <XEUQc.48836$Vm1.1127573@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <ptadnfoZe7C6HYrcRVn-tg@comcast.com>

You may not want the additional overhead, but this is
pretty easy using wxPython (wxWindows Python package).
The additional benefit (which may not be important to
you) is that it is portable.

HTH,
Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.

"Darcy Kahle" <darcykahle at sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:XEUQc.48836$Vm1.1127573 at news20.bellglobal.com...
> I am trying to do some advanced printing in python using the win32ui
> module, and have run into an issue.  I need to print a page landscape.
> As I could not determine how to specify the orientation of the printing,
> I arranged the graphic elements on the page the way it should be.  When
> I got to printing text, it went across the page, not down as I need it
> to go.  I tried to use the hDC.SetWorldTransform(0, -1, 1, 0, 0, 0)
> command to rotate the print counterclockwise 90 degrees, but this
> command was virtually ignored.  The other solution that I can see
> involves specifying that the page is in landscape mode, but as I
> indicated earlier, I cannot determine how to accomplish this.  The
> command win32ui.CreatePrintDialog(1538).DoModal() presents the dialog
> where the user can specify landscape mode, but it appears that the OK
> button is not hooked up to a default callback.  There is a PyCPrintInfo
> object, which it looks like I can set this programmatically, and then
> generate the printerDC object, but there is no documentation on how to
> generate this.
>
> Can anyone recommend to me how I could either specify the page to be in
> landscape mode, or rotate the text that is printing?  Any assistance
> that you can provide is greatly appreciated, and I am certain that there
> are others out there that want to know how to do this as well.
>
> BTW, I am currently using WinXP and Python 2.3, but the solution should
> be accessible via Win98 and up.  I plan to use py2exe to run the final
> product on other windows boxes.




From richie at entrian.com  Thu Aug 26 09:01:35 2004
From: richie at entrian.com (Richie Hindle)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:01:35 +0100
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
In-Reply-To: <776e0325.0408260433.449660c8@posting.google.com>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<776e0325.0408260433.449660c8@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <r6nri09u4k9741su5vmgc7fj60154a4e00@4ax.com>


[Sara]
> just look at the reaction if any questions any element of Perl design!

My one and only foray into comp.lang.perl was to ask about the rationale
behind using regular expressions as the mechanism for untainting tainted
data.  Since regular expressions are so pervasive in Perl code, it seemed to
me (as a Perl beginner) that it made it very easy to untaint without
realising it.  I never returned, and I'm grateful to the Python community
for not being the Perl community.  8-)

-- 
Richie Hindle
richie at entrian.com



From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Fri Aug 20 18:34:30 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 22:34:30 GMT
Subject: Decorator keyword options - brainstorming
References: <7knVc.4599$Jn5.3074@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<cg5150$9if$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<HioVc.4613$Jn5.3188@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <W%uVc.5378$Jn5.2819@fe1.texas.rr.com>

Some other ideas:

imbue
endow
bestow
embellish
extend
accum
glom
confer





From eldiener at earthlink.net  Mon Aug 16 20:04:23 2004
From: eldiener at earthlink.net (Edward Diener)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 00:04:23 GMT
Subject: Piping stdout to Python callable
Message-ID: <bYbUc.24077$nx2.16696@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>

>From within a function in my own module I need to take the output from a
Python module "A", which is sending data to stdout and which can not be
changed and which I need to invoke as a top-level module, and pipe it into
another function in my own module so that I can read it from stdin. Is there
an easy way to do this ? The only way I can presently think to do this is
through "system python A.py | python MyOwnModule.py", which seems a bit
laborious having to invoke python.exe itself twice. Any other solution would
be most welcome.




From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Thu Aug  5 17:17:03 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 17:17:03 -0400
Subject: PEP 263 status check
Message-ID: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com>

PEP 263 is marked finished in the PEP index, however
I haven't seen the specified Phase 2 in the list of changes
for 2.4 which is when I expected it.

Did phase 2 get cancelled, or is it just not in the
changes document?

John Roth




From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug 16 12:43:02 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 16:43:02 GMT
Subject: Newbie question about file input
References: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPGENLCDAA.ben@benlast.com>
	<mailman.1740.1092673361.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4120e416$0$65575$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-16, Elcio Ferreira <elciof at gmail.com> wrote:
>> while 1:
>>   line = zf.readline()
>>   if not line:
>>     break
>
> Newbie's question:
>
> Isn't it a strange way to do a loop? Create a loop with a foo
> condition and use an if to break it?
>
>=====
> line=zf.readline()
> while line:
>     . . .
>     line=zf.readline()
>=====
>
> Isn't this code much more easy to understand?

I prefer this:

for line in xf:
    ....


-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  I'm rated PG-34!!
                                  at               
                               visi.com            


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 12:50:35 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 02:50:35 +1000
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
In-Reply-To: <lffhi0drfibnjk2455lkbo23s241m926ca@4ax.com>
References: <mailman.2154.1093185852.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<lffhi0drfibnjk2455lkbo23s241m926ca@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082209501b449f73@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 16:08:44 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
> So in the end I might have ended up doing exactly what I have accused
> others of doing in other cases - reading into the @decorator syntax
> decision (assuming *some* syntax is a fait accompli) - finding it to
> be wise, for reasons perhaps beyond its intentions.

As someone else said at some point during the last two weeks of
decorator discussions - we're all using a language that, by and large,
is Guido's design. He's done a good job so far of producing something
that's excellent - I trust him to produce a good result here.

I hope the final decision ends up getting less vitriolic responses
than the 2.4a2 release got.


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Fri Aug 13 15:34:00 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:34:00 -0400
Subject: Why I love python.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1628.1092425051.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<2o4divF6one2U1@uni-berlin.de> <slrnchq2br.am7.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<mailman.1628.1092425051.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408131530170.4101-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, kosh wrote:

> Why is there a need for a stand alone executable? At least on all the unixes 
> whether something is executable is just determined by the executable bit on 
> the file.

Not if you don't have the interpreter installed.

> I can execute a python program just as transparently as one in 
> compiled c, c++,  etc. I really don't see the point of that.

Indeed, you can do that just as easily on Windows, too.  The point of a 
stand-alone executable is not to make running the script easier, but to 
make distribution easier.  Users don't need to install Python to run a 
Python script if it's a stand-alone executable.



From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Aug  5 16:44:30 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 22:44:30 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <ceu67e$ioa$00$1@news.t-online.com>

Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:

> Now that the '-*- coding: <charset> -*-' feature has arrived,
> I'd like to see an addition:
> 
>   # -*- str7bit:True -*-
> 
>   After the source file has been converted to Unicode, cause a parse
>   error if a non-u'' string contains a non-7bit source character.

Could

# -*- coding: ascii -*-

be sufficient? Why would you reintroduce ambiguity with your s-prefixed
strings? The long-term goal would be unicode throughout, IMHO. 

Peter




From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Aug 27 18:21:44 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (Simon John)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 15:21:44 -0700
Subject: Dynamic languages
In-Reply-To: <278de0e.0408271349.26762174@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgoc5o$ldv@odah37.prod.google.com>

Yeah, I noticed that not quite right definition - I know I certainly
can't change the behaviour of a running script (which has been compiled
to .pyo/.pyc) by editting the .py source file.....



From xing_zhimeng at yahoo.com  Sat Aug  7 06:06:07 2004
From: xing_zhimeng at yahoo.com (xzm)
Date: 7 Aug 2004 03:06:07 -0700
Subject: Extending python.
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061224090.8941-100000@e5-05.ee.ualberta.ca>
Message-ID: <a17fc9ca.0408070206.26d222db@posting.google.com>

I think you may create custom python exe... something like the
following and just link against your module and python2x.lib. Of
course, you still need to do the usual stuffs of wrapping around you
own C code. Then you may just 'import xyz' in Python:

#include "Python.h"
#include "xyzmodule.h"

int main(int argc, char **argv)
{
    PyImport_AppendInittab("xyz", initxyz);
    return Py_Main(argc, argv);
}



Grzegorz Dostatni <grzegorz at ee.ualberta.ca> wrote in message news:<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061224090.8941-100000 at e5-05.ee.ualberta.ca>...
> Cheers.
> 
> More questions.
> Let's say I'm trying to extend python with a c module. That module cannot
> be dynamically loaded (for reasons outside my control). I have to create a
> custom python executable (or more likely custom python library).
> How would I do that? Is there documentation on that somewhere? Most of
> what I've seen was for dynamic loading.
> 
> 2nd Step:
> Let's say I'm doing it under windows, using Visual Studio. Is there
> anything I have to be aware of?
> 
> 3rd Step:
> Let's say I don't have the source available. I do have the object files,
> the resulting libraries and the header files though.
> 
> Greg
> 
> "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds,
>  and the pessimist fears this is true."
> 	- James Branch Cabell


From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Sun Aug  8 00:00:25 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 00:00:25 -0400
Subject: decorators vs GIL
In-Reply-To: <8YudnZoJ4NdLEYjcRVn-jA@speakeasy.net>
References: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>
	<mailman.1345.1091924284.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<8YudnZoJ4NdLEYjcRVn-jA@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <0bidnfbR2_PZOIjcRVn-pA@giganews.com>

A.M. Kuchling wrote:

> My basic point is that the features added to projects are those that people
> are willing to actually work on.  In the case of decorators, some people
> wanted decorators, for the sake of PyObjC or ctypes or whatever, and Mark
> Russell actually sat down and implemented it.  (Because he uses PyObjC?

I think one of the latent messages of this thread was that adding
new "gratuitous" features to the core language is a bad thing.

Just because someone sits down and codes it does not mean it
should be added to the language. Features are forever, you
cannot just can't eliminate them in the next version.

Why putter around with banalities like sorted() and reversed()
that only add to the cognitive overhead, break the consistency
in dealing with lists yet save at most a line or two of
coding? And what you imply here, that the fact of
having decorators works for PyObjC was considered in
the overall decision feels like putting the cart before
the horse.

Python is said to come with the batteries included, then
that's where new features should go, to the battery level
not into the wiring.

Istvan.



From listsub at wickedgrey.com  Wed Aug 25 15:48:34 2004
From: listsub at wickedgrey.com (Eli Stevens (WG.c))
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:48:34 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WE
	DONE?
In-Reply-To: <b8ad139e.0408241253.7d807f42@posting.google.com>
References: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>	<Xns954E696D4D95Darienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.29>
	<b8ad139e.0408241253.7d807f42@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <412CED12.4080204@wickedgrey.com>

Jess Austin wrote:
> Another objection that has been raised about my current favorite,
> "decorate", is that at 8 characters it's too long.  9 characters will
> also be considered too long by a number of people.
> 
> The natural short version of "decorate" would be "dec" and there is
> sort of a natural parallelism with "def" there.  I hesitate to
> nominate it because it _feels_ like a word that at least ten people on
> c.l.py will detest.
> 
> Maybe "decor"?  It isn't any longer than "class", and I think we can
> predict it will be typed less than 1/10 as often.  But this reasoning
> could also excuse "decorate", so I'll stick with that.  I'm also open
> to any transitive verb that can be designated to mean _exactly_ what
> "decorate" means now.

J2 J2 F, but I'm a lurker and Python newbie, so...  ;)

I kind of like the keyword "alter", but I suspect that, like many other 
such words, it will conflict quite a bit with existing code.  One of the 
issues that some have raised was the disconnect between the "using" and 
"def" lines.  What about copying the pattern used by if/elif; something 
like (I like the first the best, I think it "reads well," while the 
second is the shortest and has a nice rhythm):


alterdef:
     classmethod
def foo():
     pass


decdef:
     classmethod
def foo():
     pass


decoratedef:
     classmethod
def foo():
     pass


Of course, this will mean that there would also be an "alterclass:" if 
classes need decorators (in this case, "decclass:" doesn't seem as nice, 
and reusing "alterdef:" is downright misleading).

Just a thought,
Eli



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Aug  3 16:49:20 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 16:49:20 -0400
Subject: Timing Difference: insert vs. append & reverse
References: <35b736b9.0408020330.53b24ed3@posting.google.com><Xns953983065EEC6duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>	<35b736b9.0408021152.4c1ab752@posting.google.com><mailman.1076.1091495016.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<35b736b9.0408030019.27f212d9@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <ceotoh$pml$1@sea.gmane.org>


"John Keeling" <johnfkeeling at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:35b736b9.0408030019.27f212d9 at posting.google.com...
> It is so cool to be able to get the disassembly
> so easily.... thanks v. much Terry.

Since byte code is not (typically) written by hand, the symbolic names can
be long enough to be mostly self-explanatory, rather than short and crytic.
If any are not, for you, the Lib Manual dis module section has subsection
with all codes explained.

TJR





From zathras at thwackety.com  Thu Aug  5 09:14:21 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 14:14:21 +0100 (BST)
Subject: web resources to explain why Python is best?
In-Reply-To: <9dqdnVTDTfC3vYzcRVn-iQ@centurytel.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051413070.17888-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>

On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Ed Suominen wrote:
...
> How about my very own posting "Goodbye TCL" on comp.lang.tcl and the 114
> other articles in the thread it started?

I read through that and the script you were talking about it in - a
dictation system written in python sounds interesting, but the links to
where you can download all seem bust - is it still available anywhere?

TIA,


Michael.



From siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk  Mon Aug 23 12:04:49 2004
From: siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk (Sion Arrowsmith)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 17:04:49 +0100 (BST)
Subject: 100 % portable ?
References: <rp_Vc.221989$xO.10939509@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<sl1nv1-7jm.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
Message-ID: <Xsw*OvOsq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

Roger Binns <rogerb at rogerbinns.com> wrote:
>My preferred toolkit is the wxPython wrapper around wxWidgets.
>Wherever possible it uses native widgets.   [ ... ]
>
>Just to give you some idea, in my 30,000 line program there are
>5 tests to see what platform it is running on, specifically to
>ensure appropriate defaults etc for the platform.

Sounds about right to me -- I've got about 20,000 lines of
application with six platform tests, five of which are to
work around platform-specific infelicities in wx.

-- 
\S -- siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk -- http://www.chaos.org.uk/~sion/
  ___  |  "Frankly I have no feelings towards penguins one way or the other"
  \X/  |    -- Arthur C. Clarke
   her nu become? se bera eadward ofdun hl?ddre heafdes b?ce bump bump bump


From db3l at fitlinxx.com  Thu Aug 19 15:12:35 2004
From: db3l at fitlinxx.com (David Bolen)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 15:12:35 -0400
Subject: introspection?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408181840570.966-100000@sextans.mesa.lowellnet>
	<mailman.1925.1092888665.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <un00r2b8c.fsf@fitlinxx.com>

Roman Suzi <rnd at onego.ru> writes:

> I am using different approach to introspection of Python
> functions and methods (not all available info output,
> only name of the previously called function/method).
> I am not sure if this is better than getting sys._getframe()
> or not, at least it doesn't use undescore methods ;-)
> and "knowns" about all invocation history at once,
> could even show source code, etc.

Note that for Python 2.1+ you can use the inspect module's
"currentframe" method to obtain your current frame in lieu of
sys._getframe(), if you prefer a more documented approach.

I believe you should also be able to work your way back up the call
chain using the f_back field within any given frame object if you want
to.

-- David


From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Tue Aug 10 13:15:55 2004
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 19:15:55 +0200
Subject: how to dispatch objects depending on their class 
In-Reply-To: <4118dd4a$1@maser.urz.unibas.ch>
References: <4118dd4a$1@maser.urz.unibas.ch>
Message-ID: <4118faca$0$22911$636a15ce@news.free.fr>

Curzio Basso wrote:
> 
> Hi all.
> 
> I have a couple of question regarding the following situation:
> 
> class A(object):
>   def __init__(self):
>     pass
> 
> class B(object):
>   def __init__(self):
>     A.__init__(self)
> 
> def func(object):
>   if isinstance(object, A):
>     do_something_with_A(object)
>   elif isinstance(object, B):
>     do_something_with_B(object)
> 
> Note that in my real problem I cannot move the logic of func to the 
> class A and B because I will have a hierarchy also for func. Then I need 
> a way to dispatch the object to the right function. 

I saw something like a multi-methods implementation in Python somewhere, 
this may interest you.
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-pydisp.html



From Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU  Thu Aug 19 14:01:01 2004
From: Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU (Michael J. Fromberger)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:01:01 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
References: <20040817181725194-0400@braeburn.themorgue.org>
	<10i9msuatli5p84@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <Michael.J.Fromberger-D24476.14010119082004@localhost>

In article <10i9msuatli5p84 at news.supernews.com>,
 "John Roth" <newsgroups at jhrothjr.com> wrote:

> "Kevin Smith" <Kevin.Smith at sas.com> wrote in message
> news:20040817181725194-0400 at braeburn.themorgue.org...
> > For what it's worth, I wrote the original PEP 318.  [...]
> > 
> > In my opinion, none of the proposed syntaxes really seem Pythonic.  
> > This PEP just seems to be trying to solve too many problems.
> 
> The arguement is, and always has been, about syntax. Everyone agrees 
> that the current situation is not ideal; putting the wrapping 
> assignment statement after the method is a very poor way of declaring 
> intent.

I agree that the current situation is not ideal.  However, I would also 
argue that many of the proposed replacements are even worse.  Kevin 
Smith's latest proposal (cf. <http://shorl.com/bykaprifitrevi>) is, in 
my view, the most reasonable suggestion so far.

> In other words, forget the use cases.  They're irrelevant. 

On this point, I strongly disagree.  If you don't have a use case, there 
is no point whatsoever in arguing about the syntax of a feature.

Now, if you want to argue about general syntactic design principles, 
maybe that is an interesting topic -- but it is one level removed from 
what PEP-318 is all about, and therefore (in my opinion) not really 
germane to the present discussion.

-M

-- 
Michael J. Fromberger             | Lecturer, Dept. of Computer Science
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~sting/  | Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA


From jack at performancedrivers.com  Wed Aug 11 17:33:03 2004
From: jack at performancedrivers.com (Jack Diederich)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:33:03 -0400
Subject: The winner of the Python Decorator Poll is...
In-Reply-To: <Ue-dnX0CBNhaEYfcRVn-ig@comcast.com>
References: <Ue-dnX0CBNhaEYfcRVn-ig@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <20040811213303.GI23725@performancedrivers.com>

On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 04:16:54PM -0500, Doug Holton wrote:
> George W Bush, as certified by Florida's election commission.
> 
> 
> Which decorator syntax do you like the most? See 
> http://wiki.wxpython.org/index.cgi/PythonDecoratorsPoll
> A. @classmethod def foo(): (82) 	14% 	
> C1. def foo() [classmethod]: (235) 	41% 	
> E1. def foo(): @classmethod (260) 	45% 	
> 
> Total Votes: 577
> 
> People are about 6 to 1 against having the decorators come before the 
> "def" keyword.

Or people who don't like decorators before the def are six times as
likely to vote in the dissidents poll *wink*

-Jack



From my.news.groups at noos.fr  Mon Aug 16 05:10:49 2004
From: my.news.groups at noos.fr (nik)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:10:49 +0200
Subject: C++ app calling python script repeatedly
Message-ID: <41207a1c$0$29872$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-05.noos.net>

hi,

my C++ app has embedded the interpreter and calls a python script 
everytime it creates a certain data structure. This allows the user to 
put the structure into a database or files or whatever. For example;

// Py_Initialize(); has been called earlier

	m_module = PyImport_AddModule("myModule");
	// for example, this string is my data structure
	PyObject* theMessage = PyString_FromString("data");
	PyModule_AddObject(my_module, "Message", theMessage);
		
	fp =fopen("theScript.py", "r");
	PyRun_SimpleFile(fp, "theScript.py");
	
// Py_Finalize(); will be called when the C++ app exits

I've just realised that calling the script repeatedly might not be the 
best thing, especially if the users script has a lot of initialisation 
to do, or needs to store variables in between calls to the script.

How could I solve this? Can the user run a python program alongside my 
C++ app, and the app call a method on the users program? I.e. can the 
script I call be part of a global process in some way? Or, are there 
other ways to go about this?

nik


From tim.peters at gmail.com  Mon Aug  9 13:42:31 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 13:42:31 -0400
Subject: Queue qsize = unreliable?
In-Reply-To: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA1F@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>
References: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA1F@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>
Message-ID: <1f7befae0408091042663a3810@mail.gmail.com>

[Jeff Shannon]
>> No you don't.  You simply execute a non-blocking get(), and be
>> prepared to catch the Queue.Empty exception.  Similarly, if you want
>> a non-blocking producer, then you execute a non-blocking put() and
>> catch the Queue.Full exception.

[Ames Andreas]
> I've actually read the docs some time ago, but I've also read the
> source.  I think the problem is here that "non-blocking" isn't very
> well defined.

That's true, it isn't.

> In the sense that the consumer won't wait until something gets
> available from an empty Queue you are absolutely right with calling
> Queue.get(False).  But if you look at the source you will find that
> the first thing that's done in Queue.get() is aquiring a mutex/cv
> lock.  That's potentially quite blocking as far as I am concerned.

You must be looking at 2.4.  The mutex is never held for longer than
it takes to push or pop a single entry, so there is no pattern of
calls that can force a non-blocking call to wait for an arbitrarily
long time (assuming OS thread scheduling doesn't starve Python). 
That's one meaning of non-blocking.  Before 2.4 it had a different
meaning, one that never waited on a mutex for any reason in the
non-blocking cases.  But then a non-blocking get() could raise Empty
not only if the queue *was* empty, but also if it simply couldn't get
immediate ownership of a mutex in order to *tell* whether it was
empty.  That proved impossible to explain to users, who kept
complaining about it (as if it actually mattered ...).

> With CPython's assertions about atomicity of certain list operations
> it's possible to implement a lock free queue that is even usable for
> the single producer or single consumer case.  That's not to say
> anything against the standard libraries Queue implementation because
> it presumably does the right thing for the general case.

Yes, the Queue class makes no assumptions about how the queue is
implemented concretely.  Its base implementation (in 2.4) uses a
deque, but it's intended that users be able to subclass Queue and use
any concrete implementation.  In order to support that, the base Queue
guarantees that calls to implementation methods are serialized.


From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Sat Aug 28 03:51:24 2004
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 00:51:24 -0700
Subject: lambda ??
References: <6f402501.0408270000.31ad1455@posting.google.com>
	<cgmtp7$f6v$1@ns.felk.cvut.cz>
Message-ID: <6f402501.0408272351.22a45394@posting.google.com>

Jan Gregor <gregor.jan at NOSPAMquick.cz> wrote in message news:<cgmtp7$f6v$1 at ns.felk.cvut.cz>...
> Python is little bit limited in lambda functions. In lisp I use lambda
> functions in functionals (something like a map or reduce in python)
> as a wrapper for functions with more than one argument.
> 
> Jan

Thanks to those that answered. Looks like I need to elarn Lisp to
getter a fuller understanding... right after I learn C.

Hmmm... unfortunately it looks like Python 2.2 or 2.3 broke the
'closure' examples from the Charming Python 'Functional Programming'
series. Looks like the Xoltar toolkit could do with an update. The
article says that the nested scope rules of python 2.1 + mean that you
don't need the toolkit to do closures.... but without the examples
it's a little harder to follow. Maybe it's time for an update !!
Anyway - I did get some interesting ideas.

Regards,

Fuzzy


> [snip...]

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html


From me at privacy.net  Thu Aug 26 11:34:58 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Richard Hanson)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:34:58 -0700
Subject: MSI Installer Problem: can't install 2.4a2 on new install of
	Win2kSP2
References: <vnipi0ldsgchqqiti1q19qtd5d70ju17p0@4ax.com>
	<412d7dcd$0$26184$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
Message-ID: <sfsri058cggdn56usp887tcrus25sgdcsv@4ax.com>

Martin,

Thanks for replying.

Still no go with the 2.4a2 install on my Fujitsu LifeBook P1120 with
Win2kSP2.

(I have much to learn in writing concise posts, alas -- I appreciate
your patience.)

Minding my own relative ignorance -- and your expertise -- with the
MSI Installer, this morning I redownloaded the MSI Installer
(filename: InstMsiW.exe, filesize: 1,822,848 bytes, version:
2.0.2600.2) from MS using the link on the Python 2.4 page as you
suggest (and as I'd already done yesterday as noted in my original,
somewhat dense post). 

Today, I get the same file from MS as yesterday.

Just in case, though, I ran the new download from MS yet again, and it
said:

  "Error: The specified service already exists."

Martin v. L?wis wrote:

>If it used to work before the reinstallation, you either had a different
>service pack installed before, or some other software you had installed
>did a silent installation of a new installer release (such as Office
>2k).

I'm at a loss, still. Surely, something I had previously installed in
my own prior installation silently installed something needed for the
Python 2.4a2 install *other than the MSI Installer 2.0* and is
currently missing from my reinstall...?

I'll keep working on it and will report back as a solution develops.

Thanks again, Martin -- much appreciate your and all the other
developer's selfless contributions.

I'm going to try to redownload the Python install file (mine is
filesize: 10,691,072 bytes) even though it "seems" fine -- as I'm
running out of ideas.

Meanwhile, I *do* have Python 2.3.4 to play... er... *work* with (but
I sorely miss Decimal <wink>).

Best regards,
Richard

-- 
email works if unmunged:
sick<PERI0D>ole<P0INT>fart<PIE_DEC0_SYNTAX>newsguy<MARK>com


From roy at panix.com  Sat Aug 28 11:14:14 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:14:14 -0400
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<tyf3c28ps1t.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
	<1ry8k0d2az.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87acwgvy51.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<2pb36dFibuj3U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<41309d32$0$65611$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <roy-2A9F92.11141428082004@reader1.panix.com>

In article <41309d32$0$65611$a1866201 at newsreader.visi.com>,
 Grant Edwards <grante at visi.com> wrote:

> Because so many people at first think that parens construct
> tuples the way square-brackets and curly-brackets construct
> lists. When in reality it's commas that construct tuples, but
> only in certain contexts because commas are used for about
> three other purposes as well.
> [...]
> IMO, the only non-ugly, non-hack solution would be to have
> another set of delimters that are used as tuple-constructors so
> that the syntax for a literal tuple, a literal list, and a
> literal dictionary are consistent.

I agree.  It's even uglier that "," doesn't form a zero-length tuple.  
Thus you get:

tuple0 = ()
tuple1 = 1,

So, is it parens that form tuples, or commas?  I guess There's More Than 
One Way To Do It :-)

My personal choice would have been angle brackets, i.e. <1, 2, 3>.  
Then, <1> would have been a length-1 tuple with no ambiguity.

tuple0 = <>
tuple1 = <1>
tuple2 = <1, 2>

But it's way too late for that now.  Maybe in P3K?


From sandskyfly at hotmail.com  Wed Aug  4 12:09:43 2004
From: sandskyfly at hotmail.com (Sandy Norton)
Date: 4 Aug 2004 09:09:43 -0700
Subject: tweaking @decorator syntax
Message-ID: <b03e80d.0408040809.66c50ecf@posting.google.com>

If we are going to be stuck with @decorators for 2.4, then how about
using blocks and indentation to elminate repetition and increase
readability:


Example 1
---------

class Klass:
    def __init__(self, name):
        self.name = name
    
    @staticmethod
        def statmethod1(x):
            return x
        
        def statmethod2(y):
            return y
            
    @classmethod
        def classmethod1(cls):
            return cls
        
        def classmethod2(cls):
            return cls
    
    @funcattrs(name='GvR', language='python')
    @log(file='func.log')
        def sayhello(self):
            print 'hello python world'
        
        def saygoodbye(self):
                    print 'goodby python world'        

Example 2
---------

class Klass:
    def __init__(self, name):
        self.name = name
    
    @staticmethod:
        def statmethod1(x):
            return x
        
        def statmethod2(y):
            return y
            
    @classmethod:
        def classmethod1(cls):
            return cls
        
        def classmethod2(cls):
            return cls
    
    @funcattrs(name='GvR', language='python'), 
        log(file='func.log'):
        def sayhello(self):
            print 'hello python world'
        
        def saygoodbye(self):
                    print 'goodby python world'        


Perhaps, you can eliminate the '@' alltogether:

Example 3
---------

class Klass:
    def __init__(self, name):
        self.name = name
    
    staticmethod:
        def statmethod1(x):
            return x
        
        def statmethod2(y):
            return y
            
    classmethod:
        def classmethod1(cls):
            return cls
        
        def classmethod2(cls):
            return cls
    
    funcattrs(name='GvR', language='python'),
        log(file='func.log'):
        def sayhello(self):
            print 'hello python world'
        
        def saygoodbye(self):
                    print 'goodby python world'        
        

Sandy


From shalabh at cafepy.com  Thu Aug 19 15:56:55 2004
From: shalabh at cafepy.com (Shalabh Chaturvedi)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:56:55 -0700
Subject: staticmethod problems
In-Reply-To: <b68d2f19.0408190922.23956f3d@posting.google.com>
References: <b68d2f19.0408190922.23956f3d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cg30ji$uit$1@sea.gmane.org>

Neil Zanella wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Coming from C++ and Java, one of the surprising things about Python is that
> not only class instances (AKA instance objects) but also classes themselves
> are objects in Python.

You'll soon be surprised again - at how you managed to live without this 
feature <wink>.

> 
> This means that variabls such as x and y appearing inside class statements
> in Python essentially behave like static class variables in other languages.
> On the other hand a variable is specified as an instance variable as self.x
> and self.y inside a class in Python. Unqualified variables appearing inside
> the class are class variables and not instance variables.

Yes, but unqualified variables appearing *inside methods* are not looked 
up in the class (or any other object).

class C:
    x = 1

    def f(self):
        # different ways to access the x above
        print self.x
        print self.__class__.x
        print C.x

        # incorrect way to access x (raises exception)
        print x

        # unqualified variables here have to be found
        # in specific namespaces like locals or globals etc.
        # note that self is a local.

> So now what I would like to do, is access the static variable of a superclass
> object from a subclass object from a static method in the subclass object.
> 
> Here is what is not clear to me:
> Why don't the commentd out lines below work? I was
> expecting that a polymorphic search taking place when I
> call Y.foo() would find both x and y, but this did not happen.
> In particular, why does python force me to write something
> like I write in foo3() to enforce the behavior I want in foo()?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Neil
> 
> #!/usr/bin/python
> 
> class X:
>   x = 10
> 
> class Y(X):
>   y = 5
>   def foo():
>     print x + y
>   foo = staticmethod(foo)
>   def foo2():
>     print X.x + y
>   foo2 = staticmethod(foo2)
>   def foo3():
>     print X.x + Y.y
>   foo3= staticmethod(foo3)
> 
> #Y.foo() # I was expecting the same behavior as below,
>          # with the value 15 printed. Why is this not
>          # working (and where can I find more about
>          # staticmethod)?

Since x and y are not defined in the method, nor are globals or 
builtins. You always have to start with an object in one of these 
namespaces and work your way to the object you want.

> #Y.foo2() # doesn't work either. Why?
> 
> Y.foo3() # works

You might want to try classmethod instead. When you're inside a 
staticmethod, you have no idea which class you're in. But classmethods 
get the class as the first argument. And so you can use somewhat similar 
to how self is used for instance methods.

class X:
   x = 10

class Y(X):
   y = 5
   def foo(cls):
     print cls is Y
     print cls.x + cls.y
   foo = classmethod(foo)

HTH,
Shalabh



From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Tue Aug 31 15:26:34 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:26:34 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>	<e69d3ed2040
	<HBF.20040830aznn@ <ch1qf3$hvr$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <loom.20040831T212300-455@post.gmane.org>

Paul Morrow <pm_mon <at> yahoo.com> writes:
> The assignments to __xxx__ variables (immediately following the 
> docstring, if present) would occur in the namespace of the object 
> (function/method) being defined.  The assignments would not cause them 
> to change namespaces.


What you're suggesting is that given:

def f1():
    __author__ = 'Steve'

and

def f2():
    author = 'Steve'

in f1, the assignment to __author__ occurs in the function's namespace, but in 
f2, the assignment to author occurs in the local namespace.  Clearly then, the 
__xxx__ format (if at the beginning of a function) changes the namespace to 
which an assignment applies.  How is this not causing assignments to change 
namespaces?

Steve



From PPNTWIMBXFFC at spammotel.com  Thu Aug 26 11:03:11 2004
From: PPNTWIMBXFFC at spammotel.com (Marco Aschwanden)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:03:11 +0200
Subject: How to generically transform a list?
References: <opsdcguchn35jo5o@news.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <opsdchfliy35jo5o@news.gmane.org>

Here is a proposal, but I am sure, that there is a simpler way... there is 
too much appending:

>>> the_list = [['a',1,11,'aa'], ['b',2,22,'bb'],['c',3,33,'cc']]
>>> returnList = [2,1] # user wants col 2 first followed by col 1
>>> new_list = []
>>> for row in theList:
... 	list_row = []
... 	for idx in returnList:
... 	  list_row.append(row[idx])
... 	new_list.append(list_row)
... 	
>>> new_list
[[11, 1], [22, 2], [33, 3]]



From drumheller at alum.mit.edu  Mon Aug 16 02:50:05 2004
From: drumheller at alum.mit.edu (Michael Drumheller)
Date: 15 Aug 2004 23:50:05 -0700
Subject: NumArray array-indexing
References: <a56f3aa5.0408120958.5e9db50d@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121433170.9323-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <a56f3aa5.0408152250.6ce926e9@posting.google.com>

Christopher T King <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote in message news:<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121433170.9323-100000 at ccc8.wpi.edu>...
> On 12 Aug 2004, Michael Drumheller wrote:
> 
> > I am new to NumArray and I wonder if someone can help me with
> > array-indexing.  Here's the basic situation: Given a rank-2 array
> > (i.e., a matrix) it seems to be trivial, with array indexing,
> > to extract a subset of its *columns*.  But it does not seem
> > to be trivial to extract a subset of its *rows*.
> 
> You can do this using slices, like so:
> 
> >>> from numarray import *
> >>> a = array([[1, 2], [3, 4]])
> >>> a[:,1]
> array([2, 4])
> 
> ':' means 'take all values along this axis', just like how with standard 
> Python lists it means 'take all values in the list'.

But that just gets me *one* column.  I was trying to extract
an arbitrary subset of columns.  Like I pointed out in the example
code I gave, this is trivial get take(), but does not seem to
be trivial with array indexing (and impossible with slicing).
Mike


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Tue Aug 24 10:00:35 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:00:35 GMT
Subject: __name__ becoming read-write?
References: <mailman.2205.1093275632.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<c94ki0dgh70ud7e1ok8sshlvg4pe96s4h8@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2211.1093279236.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<3b8ki0tlphodtt8ge8an274qp78ihp1i3n@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2223.1093282711.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ultki0h81hl8fmgd452tqsfqihv6hpvege@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2261.1093321637.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<8cdmi0dipgk5192li1p8mm2n1hls2hs7rl@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2279.1093354919.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <7rhmi0d7cdg9r6ljvilgkep30tckl24nai@4ax.com>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:41:57 +1000, Anthony Baxter
<anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:09:56 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
>> All I think I am looking for is proportionality.  The solution should
>> be proportional to the problem.  The current syntax is expressive in
>> the way that, I thought, was always considered to be fundamental to
>> the concept of Pythonic.
>
>See, I think decorators _are_ proportional to the problem. I think one
>thing is that decorators are a nice language feature that will allow
>for a large number of new approaches - things that wouldn't
>necessarily have been considered before now.

On the other hand, its just sugar - and nothing but.

But yes, it will encourage new approaches. Decorator libraries.
Modularization.  Code reuse. 

I think I see some of the good.

But all at a cost.  I would be comforted to hear you say something
about the costs you perceive.  If you present it is all just a win,
it becomes too easy to challenge your assessment. So easy, that even
someone like myself can pull it off, at least to an extent - and at
least in my own judgement.

I reserve the right to be wrong in my overall assessment.  But I have
to doubt that I am wrong in stressing that none of this new power and
possibility comes for free.

Art
 



From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Aug 25 09:01:11 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:01:11 +0200
Subject: module functions list
References: <cghu3v$afp$02$1@news.t-online.com>
	<mailman.2349.1093436280.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgi1l9$35r$03$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <cgi2in$54a$03$1@news.t-online.com>

Diez B. Roggisch wrote:

> Hi,
> 
>> You could use a list comprehension coupled with a filter:
>> 
>> functionList = [function for function in dir(objectName) \
>>     if callable(getattr(objectName,function))]
 
Note that callable() will not filter out classes. If you want to exclude
classes from your list, have a look at inspect.isfunction() or
inspect.isroutine().

> That works if objectName is my module - but how do I get a reference to
> the current module _inside_ my module? Thats the hart part (at least for
> me ...)

sys.modules[__name__]

Peter


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 29 12:32:05 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 12:32:05 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <1gj8q2n.1fbrmbet624ssN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-
	<1gj8q2n.1fbrmbet624ssN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <cgt0el$u1n$1@sea.gmane.org>

Alex Martelli wrote:
> Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
>    ...
> 
>>Cool!  Thanks!  Now I need to ponder why a function's docstring needs a
>>different implementation than a class's docstring (i.e. why not just 
>>make it a straigtforward attribute of the function object).
> 
> 
> Historically, functions had docstrings before they had straightforward
> attributes.  Maybe it could be that.
> 
> 
> Alex

/*
I have stared at your reply for three or four minutes now.  On the 
surface, it seems that you are being genuinely helpful, and so I want to 
reply "Thanks. Of course.  That makes perfect sense."

But then a lot of smart people say things that (on the surface) appear 
honestly helpful but in reality are suggestions that the reader do more 
research before asking questions that have such an obvious answer.

I know that you're a smart person Mr. Martelli.  So I flipped a coin to 
decide which intreprtation of your reply to use, which came up tails, 
indicating the 2nd one.

Bahh. I prefer the superficial one (plz correct me if I'm wrong).
*/

Thanks.  That does make good sense.  They've had no reason to simplify 
the implementation for function docstrings, so "why fix it if it ain't 
broke."

Paul



From mjackson at alumni.caltech.edu  Wed Aug 18 13:05:40 2004
From: mjackson at alumni.caltech.edu (Mark Jackson)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 17:05:40 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
Message-ID: <cg0294$bu1$1@news.wrc.xerox.com>

Robin Becker <robin at reportlab.com> writes:
> Marius Bernklev wrote:

> > 24.  (anyone keeping count?)

> It's raining so I can't go home

> Martin Jackson	55

Unless there's an elderly Martin out there as well, this should be
"Mark."

-- 
Mark Jackson - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
	Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it
	is the merger of state and corporate power.
				- Benito Mussolini




From chrispatton at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 17:50:07 2004
From: chrispatton at gmail.com (Chris Patton)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 14:50:07 -0700
Subject: PyJack
References: <6fd8df7e.0408111536.79369258@posting.google.com>
	<7xisbpmdss.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <9c3edc58.0408121350.77003c7a@posting.google.com>

Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> wrote in message news:<7xisbpmdss.fsf at ruckus.brouhaha.com>...
> jumpthewall at gmail.com (Chris Patton) writes:
> > import whrandom, os
> 
> Use random rather than whrandom.  whrandom is obsolete and deprecated.
> If you're imagining a situation where players will bet real money on
> the hands dealt by this program, you have to get even more serious
> about the sources of randomness.
> 
> > def scorer(score,playerdeck):...
> >                         while d < len(playerdeck):
> >                                 if score > 10 and 'A' in playerdeck:
> > typevalues['A'] = 1
> 
> This is pretty ugly, changing the contents of what's conceptually a
> fixed table, depending on the player score.  I think it's better to
> just score the hand with A=1, then count the aces and adjust the score
> accordingly.
> 
> >         while decksize < 52:
> >                 a = whrandom.randint(0,12)
> >                 if left[a] > 0:
> >                         left[a] = left[a] - 1
> >                         deck.append(types[a])
> >                         decksize = decksize + 1
> >                 elif left[a] == 0: pass
> 
> This is a horrendous method of shuffling the cards.  When there's only
> one card left to deal, it will take several tries to find it.  See
> the random.shuffle function for a direct way to shuffle.
> 
> >         humandeck = []
> >         while c <= 1:
> >                 humandeck.append(deck[0])
> >                 del deck[0]
> >                 c = c + 1
>  
> >         compdeck = []
> >         c = 0
> >         while c <= 1:
> >                 compdeck.append(deck[0])
> >                 del deck[0]
> >                 c = c + 1
> 
> 
> Move these to a function that deals one hand, and call it for
> the player and the computer.
> 
> >         score = 0
> >         compscore = 0
> >         stay = 0
> >         over = 0
> >         compstay = 0
> >         compover = 0
> 
> Maybe you want to think of using fewer variables, e.g. create class
> instances for the two players.  Right now you only handle a two-player
> game (the human and the computer).  What if you want to handle n players?

Thanks for your analization, Paul. I'm getting to work on the code. 
IF you tried to run the code, you might have ran into a few bugs. If
you noticed, that was very immature code.

Thanks


From wilkSPAM at OUTflibuste.net  Tue Aug  3 04:41:25 2004
From: wilkSPAM at OUTflibuste.net (Wilk)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 10:41:25 +0200
Subject: where is yaml ?
References: <878ycxtfqg.fsf@blakie.riol>
	<mailman.1066.1091483499.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87llgwbolm.fsf@blakie.riol>

Matt Goodall <matt at pollenation.net> writes:

> On Mon, 2004-08-02 at 23:03 +0200, Wilk wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> It seems that the link for python-yaml on the http://yaml.org main page
>> is loose (http://iron.cx/yaml) :-(
>
> Try http://www.pyyaml.org

Thanks, i was afraid to be alone using yaml !

-- 
Wilk - http://flibuste.net


From follower at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 12:13:55 2004
From: follower at gmail.com (Follower)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 09:13:55 -0700
Subject: ANN: Python Decrypt PDF script -- builds on pdftools
Message-ID: <mailman.1869.1092839197.5135.python-announce-list@python.org>

Hi,

I wanted to extract the meta-data from an encrypted/protected PDF file
and could not find any Python scripts to do this. So, I decided to
write something myself, the result follows.

This demonstration utility requires the `pdftools` files from
<http://www.boddie.org.uk/david/Projects/Python/pdftools/> but the
decryption functions themselves should be usable with other Python PDF
libraries.

Documentation is marginal and all I can say is that worked on the
three PDF files I tested it on... :-)

--Phil.

P.S. The usual Usenet-mangling warning applies--yeah, I know--I should
put it up on a web site somewhere... :-)

#!/usr/bin/python
#
# Decrypt PDF Info
#
# Decrypts PDF files and displays meta-data associated with them. (If
the
# file isn't encrypted the information is displayed as is.)
#
# The results are similar to xpdf's `pdfinfo` utility.
#
# It should be possible to decrypt all of the objects contained
# in the PDF, but this only reads the Document Information Dictionary.
#
# (Note: All the PDF handling is provided by `pdftools`, this just
adds
#        the ability to deal with encrypted PDF files.)
#
# Requires:
#   + pdftools
#     <http://www.boddie.org.uk/david/Projects/Python/pdftools/>
#
# Based on:
#   + `pdfdecrypt.pl`
#     <http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Adobe/Gallery/pdfdecrypt.pl>
[PDFPL]
#
# Incorporates:
#   + RC4 from CipherSaber implementation by Ka-Ping Yee
<ping at lfw.org>
#     <http://www.xs4all.nl/~cg/ciphersaber/comp/python.txt>
#
# References:
#   + <http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Adobe/Gallery/anon21jul01-pdf-encryption.txt>
[PDFE]
#
# Author:
#   follower at myrealbox.com (Standing on *many* shoulders...)
#
import sys
import md5
import struct

from pdftools import PDFdocument

def arcfour(input, key):
    """
    Perform the ARCFOUR (RC4) algorithm on a given input list of bytes
with
    a key given as a list of bytes, and return the output as a list of
    bytes.

    (From CipherSaber implementation by Ka-Ping Yee <ping at lfw.org>
     <http://www.xs4all.nl/~cg/ciphersaber/comp/python.txt>)
    """
    i, j, state = 0, 0, range(256)
    for i in range(256):
        j = (j + state[i] + key[i % len(key)]) % 256
        state[i], state[j] = state[j], state[i]
    i, j, output = 0, 0, []
    for byte in input:
        i = (i + 1) % 256
        j = (j + state[i]) % 256
        state[i], state[j] = state[j], state[i]
        n = (state[i] + state[j]) % 256
        output.append(byte ^ state[n])
    return output


_passwordPad = [
  0x28, 0xbf, 0x4e, 0x5e, 0x4e, 0x75, 0x8a, 0x41,
  0x64, 0x00, 0x4e, 0x56, 0xff, 0xfa, 0x01, 0x08, 
  0x2e, 0x2e, 0x00, 0xb6, 0xd0, 0x68, 0x3e, 0x80, 
  0x2f, 0x0c, 0xa9, 0xfe, 0x64, 0x53, 0x69, 0x7a]

passwordPad = "".join([chr(b) for b in _passwordPad])

def calculateFileKey(fileId, ownerHash, userHash, permissions,
                     userPassword = ""):
    """
    Calculates the file key for the document as described in
references
    (see [PDFE] and [PDFPL]).    
    """
    md = md5.new()
    md.update((userPassword + passwordPad)[:32])
    md.update(ownerHash)
    md.update(struct.pack("<L", permissions))
    md.update(fileId)

    fileKey = md.digest()[:5]

    return fileKey    


def calculateObjectKey(fileKey, objectNumber, generationNumber):
    """
    Calculates the key for the object as described in references
    (see [PDFE] and [PDFPL]).    
    """
    md = md5.new()
    md.update(fileKey)
    md.update(struct.pack("<L", objectNumber)[:3])
    md.update(struct.pack("<L", generationNumber)[:2])
    objectKey = md.digest()[:10]

    return objectKey    


class NotEncryptedException(Exception):
    """
    The supplied PDF document is not encrypted.
    """


KEY_OWNER_HASH = 'O'
KEY_USER_HASH = 'U'
KEY_PERMISSIONS = 'P'

def getFileKey(doc, userPassword = ""):
    """
    Extracts the information required to calculate the file key
    from the supplied PDF document.

    In most cases `userPassword` can be left empty.   
    """
    fileId = doc.trailer_dict['ID'][0] # Is the ID always repeated?

    try:
        encryptDict = doc.dereference(doc.trailer_dict['Encrypt'])
    except KeyError:
        raise NotEncryptedException
    # TODO: Check encryption version is ok. (filter/standard/v/1/r/2)

    ownerHash = encryptDict[KEY_OWNER_HASH]
    userHash = encryptDict[KEY_USER_HASH]
    # `permissions` should be "four-byte integer, LSB first."
    permissions = encryptDict[KEY_PERMISSIONS] 
    
    fileKey = calculateFileKey(fileId, ownerHash, userHash,
permissions,
                               userPassword)

    # Sanity check user password
    assert(decrypt(userHash, fileKey) == passwordPad)

    return fileKey    


def decrypt(text, key):
    """
    Decrypts the supplied object (as a string) with the supplied key.

    Returns "plain text" form of object as a string.
    """
    return "".join([chr(b)
                    for b in arcfour(map(ord, text), map(ord, key))])
    

def showDocumentInfo(doc, fileKey):
    """
    Displays the content of the (optionally encrypted) Document
Information
    Dictionary for the supplied PDF document.
    """
    infoDictRef = doc.trailer_dict['Info']
    objectNumber = infoDictRef.obj
    generationNumber = infoDictRef.gen

    infoDict = doc.dereference(infoDictRef)

    objectKey = calculateObjectKey(fileKey, objectNumber,
generationNumber)

    for field, encryptedValue in infoDict.iteritems():
        if fileKey:
            value = decrypt(encryptedValue, objectKey)
        else:
            value = encryptedValue
        print "%s: %s" % (field, value)
    

if __name__ == "__main__":
    try:
        filename = sys.argv[1]
    except IndexError:
        raise SystemExit("Usage %s <filename.pdf>" % sys.argv[0])
    
    doc = PDFdocument(filename)

    try:
        fileKey = getFileKey(doc)
    except NotEncryptedException:
        fileKey = ""

    showDocumentInfo(doc, fileKey)


From ronaldoussoren at mac.com  Fri Aug 13 07:58:32 2004
From: ronaldoussoren at mac.com (Ronald Oussoren)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:58:32 +0200
Subject: [OT] Keyboard layout, was Re: PEP318
In-Reply-To: <m3y8kjmfli.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cffdba$ko0$04$1@news.t-online.com>
	<Y+l*oRTrq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
	<roy-439B02.10321912082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<L-C*RvUrq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
	<m3y8kjmfli.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <196E3AA8-ED20-11D8-9E11-000D93AD379E@mac.com>


On 13-aug-04, at 13:39, Michael Hudson wrote:

> Sion Arrowsmith <siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
>
>> Roy Smith  <roy at panix.com> wrote:
>>> Sion Arrowsmith <siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> As someone who's just started using a Mac for the first time(*),
>>>> I'd like to add that it's not always plain-sailing on an English
>>>> keyboard.
>>> What's wrong with Mac keyboards?
>>
>> No @, hence tangential relevance to PEP318 (and a point against
>> pies, before or after the def). Unless you can remember it's on
>> option-3.
>
> Huh?  On *my* mac <wink> @ is shift-2 and # is option-3.  And I live
> with the latter, and I type it far more often than anyone is ever
> going to type @ for decorators...
>
> Now, if someone would like to fix \ in place for the purposes of
> LaTeX, then you're really talking!

Use a real keyboard? On my powerbook @ is shift-2, # is shift-3 and \ 
is near return and left-shift :-)

Ronald



From pink at odahoda.de  Sat Aug 28 07:53:20 2004
From: pink at odahoda.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 13:53:20 +0200
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
In-Reply-To: <1gj8848.1bouuroizku25N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xzn4gwgea.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7a1o.1a5d2q410jsn2kN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xisb4xnh5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7c1a.tfdm14p3hclcN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xd61benm9.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj82n3.1ylkr3nierngmN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgpj1l$i0f$06$1@news.t-online.com>
	<1gj8848.1bouuroizku25N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <cgprrb$qg$02$1@news.t-online.com>

Alex Martelli wrote:

> Benjamin Niemann <pink at odahoda.de> wrote:
>    ...
> 
>>Isn't the purpose of signatures that the importing program can trust the
>>module? If it's implemented as you suggest, an attacker could just 
>>inject path to an unsigned module into PYTHONPATH to fool a program. How
> 
> 
> If the attacker is able to alter sys.path then it does not matter
> whether zipfiles are even considered -- the attacker could simply
> position a .pyc file early on the path.
> 
> 
>>about something like
>>
>>require_signature('mymodule')
>>import mymodule
> 
> 
> This could be made to work, but only if _every_ module was so checked
> before importing it; otherwise, even just one unchecked module could
> easily subvert __import__ or other aspects of the import hook mechanism.
> 
> So, if you're considering this approach, it makes more sense to switch
> on module checking globally in an early phase of Python's startup
> (because Python starts importing modules pretty early indeed).  New
> conventions will also be needed for signature of .py, .pyc, .pyo, and
> .so (or other binary DLLoid files containing Python extensions).
> 
> It appears to me that this is a project of orders of magnitude more work
> than the original idea, which didn't assume the attacker could freely
> alter sys.path
Mmmm, seems I missed this point...

> , and protected only against altered or replaced zipfiles
> specifically -- presumably files that have been legitimately placed on
> the path by authorized agents.
> 
> 
>>or
>>
>>import mymodule
>>verify_module(mymodule)
> 
> 
> Too late:'import mymodule' runs code in mymodule, shutting the barn door
> after mymodule has tramped all over your system is little use.
correct

>>Another question is, where to place (require|verify)_signature() (that
>>could also take a CA key (or list of) as optional argument to only allow
>>modules signed by this CA). It must not be imported from an untrusted
>>module.
>>The whole signing thing probably make only sense, if python and it's 
>>stdlib can be trusted (=signed).
> 
> 
> The stdlib Python (.pyc) parts could be moved into a .jar  (signed) just
> as easily as into a .zip (unsigned).  The EXE and DLL's involved may be
> quite a problem, though, since for those you're in the hands of the
> operating system -- what could Python itself possibly do to stop an
> altered Python.Exe from running?!
A use-case that came to my mind was a suid program that wants to verify 
that everything that it imports is what it expects, specifically not to 
allow the non-root user to inject any malicious replacement modules. 
Doing this with module signatures is probably not the easiest way...

>>Or am I missing other useful applications of signed archives?
> 
> 
> Remote distribution of code.  My program's startup checks if an updated
> version of foobar.jar purports to be available, and if so downloads it
> and places it where the previous version used to be.  Admittedly, in
> this case, checking once and for all right after the download might work
> better than checking after each and every import.  (Not sure why but
> this reminds me of the old 'end to end approach' issue;-).
Yes, this could be handled by a generic 'file-signature-verification' 
mechanism. No need to delay verification until import.

> 
> Unfortunately, Python currently doesn't have a working 'sandbox'
> mechanism where code might run in a resricted way if it hadn't passed
> all needed checks.  This lack, among other things, may certainly lessen
> the usefulness of checks performed at (or, rather, just before) import
> time.
Yep. Python treats us as adults. But adults often have to deal with 
children and the environment should give adults some kind of authority 
and places where the kiddies can play without causing damage... ;) This 
is currently not the case for Python.


> 
> 
> Alex


From dperl at rogers.com  Mon Aug 30 11:39:54 2004
From: dperl at rogers.com (Dan Perl)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 15:39:54 GMT
Subject: initializing mutable class attributes
References: <J4zYc.102357$UTP.98636@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gjc8cs.sqvo1v1fhabdjN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <eTHYc.205$yqJ1.68@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>


"Alex Martelli" <aleaxit at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1gjc8cs.sqvo1v1fhabdjN%aleaxit at yahoo.com...
> Dan Perl <dperl at rogers.com> wrote:
>
> > There is something with initializing mutable class attributes that I am
> > struggling with.  I'll use an example to explain:
> >     class Father:
> >         attr1=None   # this is OK
> >         attr2=[ ]        # this is wrong
> >         def foo(self, data):
> >             self.attr1=data
> >             self.attr2.append(data)
> > The initialization of attr1 is obviously OK, all instances of Father
> > redefine it in the method foo.  But the initialization of attr2 is wrong
> > because all the instances of Father end up sharing the same value.
Maybe
> > that is desired sometimes, but usually it is just a bug.
>
> I disagree: good Python programmers often use mutable class attributes,
> and use them to good effect.  I've done my share of Python teaching,
> consulting and mentoring, and I definitely do *not* think this usage "is
> desired sometimes but usually it is just a bug".

My mistake.  I shouldn't have made that statement.  I don't really know
which case happens more often.  Having said that, that is probably a mistake
that many beginners make.  Okay, I have no real way of knowing that either,
but I think it's a good assumption.

> > So the only solution I see to this is to initialize attr2 in __init__:
> >     class Father:
> >         attr1=None
> >         def __init__(self):
> >             self.attr2=[ ]
>
> This is the canonical way, sure.
>
>
> > This is already awkward because there is such a difference between attr1
and
> > attr2.
>
> One is a class attribute (which nobody forced you to have), the other is
> an instance attribute.  If you want both to be instance attributes,
> initialize both in __init__ -- that's all there is to it.  Don't use
> class attributes unless there's a reason for them to be class
> attributes, that seems like a good and sensible rule of thumb to me.

I was using the class attribute as a default, "null", value for the instance
attributes.  That works just fine for immutable attributes and it allows me
not to implement an __init__.

> >  But moreover, I think this forces subclasses of Father to do
> > something like this:
> >     class Child (Father):
> >         def __init__(self):
> >             Father.__init__(self)
> >             self.attr3=[ ]
>
> Assuming an instance of Child needs to have both attributes attr2 and
> attr3, yes.
>
> >
> > I find this even more awkward because many people will forget to do it.
>
> Forget to do what -- call the parent class's __init__?  Again, this is
> rare -- not as rare as the other "usually just a bug" you opined about,
> but not common.  A class normally needs __init__ for a large number of
> purposes, of course, not just to assign mutable attributes to each
> instance, therefore people who learn subclassing do learn to call the
> parent class __init__ very early on, to avoid everything breaking.
>
> > Clearly, this is then a more general issue with __init__, but I think it
is
> > accentuated by the fact that you HAVE TO HAVE __init__ in order to
> > initialize attributes that are mutable.
>
> Making __init__ more common means people are more likely to get used to
> it, and thus makes the bug of not calling a parent class's __init__
> rarer, not "accentuated".

I'm leaving the rest of your reply out, but thanks for the suggestion of a
metaclass, I'll look into it.

After seeing a few replies (yours, Benjamin Niemann's and Peter Otten's) to
my initial posting, I think I am getting the picture that there is a
conscious decision to keep the use of __init__ the way it is and just make
people learn it and learn it early enough.  That's a valid approach and I'll
accept it.

I can also understand your frustration with people who are new to Python,
like me, coming from a background in other OO languages, who are not yet
comfortable with "the Python way" and feel that there is a "better way" and
who suggest changing Python.  But you also have to be reallistic and accept
that there will always be people coming to Python from other languages and
that the adjustment is rather difficult in some areas.  You may just say
'Tough!', or you may help them to make that adjustment (I think you are
doing that), or you may even accommodate them (you should at least consider
that).

No one, including you, has given me a reason WHY __init__ is implemented
this way.  I am not bashing you for that, I would just still like to hear
that 'WHY'.  I'm sure that this implementation has some advantages.  But,
coming from a C++ and Java background, where parent default constructors are
automatically invoked (well, not always, and that is something that users
have to learn too), I find that that approach has some clear advantages.

Those are my 2 cents.

Dan
PS: Does my last name attract the wrong kind of attention from people in
this newsgroup?  It's really my name, it's not fake, BTW.




From roman.yakovenko at actimize.com  Tue Aug 17 04:08:44 2004
From: roman.yakovenko at actimize.com (Roman Yakovenko)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:08:44 +0300
Subject: python packages cross references
Message-ID: <2D89F6C4A80FA547BF5D5B8FDDD04523060CBC@exchange.adrembi.com>

Peter Maas wrote:
> Roman Yakovenko schrieb:
> > Hi. I need help( or solution :-) ). 
> > Problem: my project has 3 packages
> > prj
> >  +------A
> >  +------B
> >  +------Utils
> > 
> > The question is: what is the right way to use functionality from
>  > Utils in A and B packages ?
> 
> Look at Python Tutorial Packages (6.4). You can make a prj package
> and use intra-package references (6.4.2) for A, B and Utils.
> 
> Mit freundlichen Gruessen,
> 
> Peter Maas

May be I was not clear, but from module in package A I want to user functionality
defined in module of package Utils

"...
When packages are structured into subpackage (as with the Sound package in the example), there's no shortcut to refer to submodules of sibling packages - the full name of the subpackage must be used. For example, if the module Sound.Filters.vocoder needs to use the echo module in the Sound.Effects package, it can use from Sound.Effects import echo. 
...
"
It means that I should have prj in sys.path. ( Am I wrong here? ).

So I ask is there is elegant solution?

Thanks


From davidf at sjsoft.com  Fri Aug 20 09:12:52 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:12:52 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <84GdneSa3r-TR7jcRVn-tw@powergate.ca>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<10ia1a9jm9tkuca@corp.supernews.com>
	<dpWdnT7p6KbzlbjcRVn-jw@powergate.ca>
	<84GdneSa3r-TR7jcRVn-tw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <cg4tcl$run$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

Peter Hansen wrote:
> Peter Hansen wrote:
> 
>> Jeff Shannon wrote:
>>
>>> My votes:  J2   J2  E2
>>
>>
>> I second that.  (J2 J2 E2)
> 
> 
> I believe that the result the direction this is taking is
> inevitable: a widely split vote with no consensus.  I did
> think there was much more agreement about which one was the
> best alternative, warts and all, to @pie and which one was
> therefore the most likely to get any attention at all from
> Guido.  I also thought people had a better grasp of which
> ones had already been *rejected* fairly conclusively.

Exactly. From this standpoint, the list on the wiki should be filtered 
to something that
   1) doesn't have the declaration in the body of the function
   2) doesn't have the declaration following the parameters

1) rules out D1 D2 E1 E2
2) rules out C1 C2 C3 C4 E3

This leaves (with A left out as we're looking at alternatives)
B F G H I J1 J2 J3 J4 K L M

With the voting going the way it currently is J2 is winning anyway, the 
only current close competitor would be C1 or a variant, but I think it 
looks like J2 is going to be the one to form a concensus around.
(Current ranking is J2=38, C1=18, C1+C2+C3+C4=25, next highest is F=6, 
out of 34 voters giving 102 votes).

The other one I supported was L but that's more on the basis of 
if-we-have-to-have-it-this-way-at-least-make-it-a-keyword-not-a-punctuation-character 
which I guess could always be argued for if J2 doesn't get it.

David


From jerf at jerf.org  Tue Aug 17 19:45:23 2004
From: jerf at jerf.org (Jeremy Bowers)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 23:45:23 GMT
Subject: how to change the text in the title bar of the Tkinter windows
References: <8f17f4bc.0408151822.1be2de2e@posting.google.com>
	<cfpous$kcr$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>
	<8f17f4bc.0408171417.456199d1@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.17.19.45.23.764762@jerf.org>

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:17:30 -0700, Ali wrote:
> Um.... is this right? It is supposed to show a window with the
> titlebar showing The Title.

Did it work when you tried it? That is the answer to your question. (Why
do you want to wait hours or days for some stranger to tell you what the
copy of Python sitting in front of you will do with 4 lines of code?)



From ville at spammers.com  Sun Aug 22 12:12:35 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 19:12:35 +0300
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<roy-37CEFC.10153622082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <du7vffbgnik.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Roy" == Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> writes:

    Roy> (aka scripting) languages in general.  I can think of no
    Roy> reason why so much software is still written in languages
    Roy> like C++ other than performance (or at least, the perception
    Roy> of it).

Inertia, ignorance.

No need for virtual machine.

Real time requirements and predictabilify (e.g. fine grained control
of memory management).

Large amount of legacy code.

But most often it's still inertia and ignorance. Never underestimate
the power of incompetence ;-).

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From dperl at rogers.com  Fri Aug 27 18:02:16 2004
From: dperl at rogers.com (Dan Perl)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 22:02:16 GMT
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<1LMXc.67190$UTP.37420@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj7a9r.g7ec5a1g89rj0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <IbOXc.67282$UTP.36370@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>

I thought about submitting a recipe but I couldn't think of a way to use it
in a good code 'snippet'.  I am using the zipimport feature now to save
several configuration files together in a zip file (so I can have many
configurations saved in a convenient format, better than a new directory for
each configuration).  That would be more of an example for using multiple
configurations but, anyway, it doesn't make for a short, well-contained
example.  Sorry, Alex.

BTW, there are two books on Python that I keep on my Safari bookshelf:
'Python Cookbook' and 'Learning Python'.  So my jab was made will all the
respect I can muster.  I am really looking forward to the second edition,
recipe on zipimport or not.

Dan

"Alex Martelli" <aleaxit at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1gj7a9r.g7ec5a1g89rj0N%aleaxit at yahoo.com...
> Dan Perl <dperl at rogers.com> wrote:
>    ...
> > Alright, alright!  And given the fact that it was added only in 2.3,
that
> > explains why I couldn't find any mention of the feature in 'Python
> > Cookbook', the 1st ed.  I'm looking forward to seeing it mentioned in
the
> > 2nd ed. ;-)
>
> If somebody submits a good recipe about it, I'll be overjoyed to add it
> (not sure what chapter -- 'files'?  'system administration'?  'programs
> about programs'? -- ah well, I'll find a spot!-).
>
> In the 2nd Edition of the _Nutshell_, when THAT comes (don't hold your
> breath!-), I'll write it up just like I will for all the new delights
> since 2.2 -- but for the Cookbook I'm supposed to use recipes that
> people do submit to the online cookbook site... OK, I and my co-editors
> _do_ perform a lot of editing and merging, and occasionally do add a
> recipe or three, but mostly it IS the book you all have written, with
> over a hundred authors covering the subjects THEY think matter...
>
>
> Alex




From mwh at python.net  Fri Aug  6 10:16:25 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 14:16:25 GMT
Subject: 'Using is not None, may not always work'
References: <pan.2004.08.06.13.15.28.336325@dougfort.com>
	<mailman.1275.1091801497.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m3zn58qrlz.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Heiko Wundram <heikowu at ceosg.de> writes:

> Am Freitag, 6. August 2004 15:15 schrieb Doug Fort:
> > Since I installed 2.4a2 I've been getting a warning from pychecker: Using
> > is not None, may not always work'. I thought 'is not None' was the right
> > thing to do. I've had problems with 'if not x:', because some objects
> > return False in this context.
> 
> That's probably what pychecker warns you about: that you might get an object 
> in the respective context which evaluates to boolean false, but is not 
> None... Although I'd find this strange...

Does seem an odd warning, seeing as when I write "x is not None" I'm
generally avoiding the case of, e.g., x being the empty list.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Well, you pretty much need Microsoft stuff to get misbehaviours
  bad enough to actually tear the time-space continuum.  Luckily 
  for you, MS Internet Explorer is available for Solaris.
                              -- Calle Dybedahl, alt.sysadmin.recovery


From apardon at forel.vub.ac.be  Thu Aug 26 11:41:22 2004
From: apardon at forel.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 15:41:22 GMT
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
	<dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
	<aN5Xc.205341$M95.157379@pd7tw1no>
	<1gj4fb5.607xsc51izh8N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xllg25lkt.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj4u3a.12ttba9fynd6uN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <slrncis152.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>

Op 2004-08-26, Alex Martelli schreef <aleaxit at yahoo.com>:
> Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:
>
>> aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:
>> > There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.
>> > 
>> > Not leaving stylistic choice (which would lead to more than one obvious
>> > way to do it) is quite consonant with the Zen of Python.
>> 
>> Well, what you're left with is that doing it the one obvious way
>> doesn't work, and you have to do it in some contorted way instead.
>
> If somelist.sort() returned the list there could not possibly be one
> obvious way to do it, since both
>
> print somelist.sort()
>
> and
>
> somelist.sort()
> print somelist

Then python has already deviated from the one obvious way to do it.
I can do:

  a = a + b   vs    a += b.

or

  a = b + c   vs     a = ''.join(b,c)


The difference between

  print somelist.sort()

and

  somelist.sort()
  print somelist


is IMO of the same order as the difference between


  print a + b

and

  r = a + b
  print r


-- 
Antoon Pardon


From jjl at pobox.com  Tue Aug 10 16:08:58 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 21:08:58 +0100
Subject: Fixing socket.makefile()
References: <pJXRc.2959$5j7.2643@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>
	<%N3Sc.24735$Z14.7608@news.indigo.ie>
Message-ID: <87brhipxgl.fsf@pobox.com>

Alan Kennedy <alanmk at hotmail.com> writes:
[...]
> I also am interested in the answers, because I'm just coming to end of
> my implementation of cpython 2.3 compatible socket, select and
> asyncore modules for jython, i.e. asynchronous socket support, using
> the new java.nio APIs in jdk1.4+.

Hooray!

[...]
> P.S. To those who know I've working on this for *ages* now: apologies
> (Hi Irmen :-) My finances have prevented me from spending too much
> time working on this voluntary project. However, you may be encouraged
> to know that I now have it passing most of the cpython 2.3
> test_socket.py unit tests (including the ones that use
> select.select). It's only a matter of a month or two more now .....

Having Pyro running on both ends of Jython / CPython divide will be
very handy.


> Out of interest: Does anyone know if developing asynch-socket support
> for jython is the sort of work that might fall under the auspices of
> the PSF grant scheme?
[...]

I don't see why not.  This sort of fundamental-but-undramatic stuff is
really valuable.

Maybe the PSF should look into funding research aimed at cloning
Martin v. Loewis?  Or, if he's really a bot, maybe he could be
reimplemented using your new code, for superior scalability?


John


From steve at ferg.org  Thu Aug 19 10:16:40 2004
From: steve at ferg.org (Stephen Ferg)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 07:16:40 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<cfvnt4$98p$1@news.wrc.xerox.com>
	<xqxy8kcxtju.fsf@cola2.ca.boeing.com>
Message-ID: <b16e4ef7.0408190616.f549faa@posting.google.com>

> Finally, someone in my cohort :-).  52.  

I'm 58.  

Started programming in 1979 -- 25 years ago.  Cut my teeth on Pl/I. 
Later COBOL, Pascal, Basic, Java.  For a while I liked REXX very much,
but it just ran out of steam.

Been programming in Python for about 4 years.  

Perhaps we have a two-hump demographic: youngsters in teens and
twenties, and old farts in 50's.


From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Tue Aug 17 12:08:53 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 18:08:53 +0200
Subject: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xf3'
References: <4120F820.4000703@fusiondementes.com>
	<20040817061745.GA4259@barbucha.martin.net>
	<mailman.1806.1092756831.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cfta4m$6aj$06$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <cftaii$6aj$06$2@news.t-online.com>

> So what do you need to solve your problem at hand? You need to know which
> encoding the sql driver wants for transmitting strings - most probably
> utf-8, so they can encode all possible characters. And thus you have to
> encode tthe strings you pass beforehand, or set the default encoding
> properly.

Just saw that setting the encoding doesn't work - sorry for suggesting it.
-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 30 20:22:44 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 20:22:44 -0400
Subject: Dynamic languages
In-Reply-To: <278de0e.0408271349.26762174@posting.google.com>
References: <278de0e.0408271349.26762174@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <kIGdnScl7fZLWa7cRVn-rg@powergate.ca>

Neuruss wrote:

> "Dynamic programming languages enable programs to change their
> structure as they run."
> 
> I wonder if this definition is correct. 
> Can we define dynamic languages this way?
> 
> http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1636906,00.asp

As Steve Holden points out, in effect, "sure we can", if we're
journalists.

But another point I haven't seen raised is that one can
certainly say that a dynamic programming language is one
that, like Python, allows an object to have new attributes
or methods added (or old ones removed) on-the-fly.  That
certainly should fit the definition of "changing their
structure", by anyone's measure, and it doesn't involve
confusing the issue with "dynamic typing", which is not
necessarily the same thing.

-Peter


From fgrillo64 at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  9 08:33:44 2004
From: fgrillo64 at yahoo.com (fgrillo64)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 12:33:44 -0000
Subject: python and win32 dlls
Message-ID: <cf7qv8+t4tt@eGroups.com>

Hi guys,
i need help from the comunity ; i wrote under Windows2000 os a dll
having several symbols exported .
Now i would like to call these symbols from a python program .
Can anyone tell me how from a python module is possible to call 
the dll exported symbols ?
thanks a lot , Francesco .



From eddie at holyrood.ed.ac.uk  Thu Aug 12 07:05:10 2004
From: eddie at holyrood.ed.ac.uk (Eddie Corns)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:05:10 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Help understanding Scheme's syntax, procedures and calls
References: <95f168b0.0408120120.31433dc7@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cffit6$shd$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>

franbarlow at mail.com (Fran) writes:

>I'm trying to understand a functional language code fragment so I can
>explain its syntax and workings to my non English-speaking background
>neighbour, who is doing her finals.

>What in heaven's name is this code fragment intending? (In English
>prose if possible).

>It looks like a fragment from a language called "scheme"

>(define (this n)
>	(if (=n 0)
>	         0
>	          (= n (this (- n 1)))))

As given this is almost certainly wrong.  The first problem is possibly just a
transcription error in that (=n 0) should probably be (= n 0).  The second one
is the that the last line doesn't make sense.  It looks like someone is
confused about how if statements work.  Since this looks suspiciously like
homework I'm only giving a hint.  If statements work like
(if expr1
    (expr to return if exp1 is true)
    (expr to return if exp1 is false))
Since each arm is an expression to evaluate it means you evaluate '=' as a
function in the last line hence it returns a boolean, which is going to cause
you grief after a short while.

>(define (f1 a b)
>	(if >b a)
>	       0
>	       (+ b (f1 a (+ b 1)))))

This is wrong syntactically (hint: the first expression for the if statement)

The questions wouldn't make sense until you fixed the functions.

There is a comp.lang.scheme incidentally.

Eddie


From eppstein at ics.uci.edu  Wed Aug  4 19:18:46 2004
From: eppstein at ics.uci.edu (David Eppstein)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:18:46 -0700
Subject: Decorator syntax (was Re: PEP 318 - PyFIT comments)
References: <mailman.1162.1091660561.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <eppstein-F81B85.16184604082004@news.service.uci.edu>

In article <mailman.1162.1091660561.5135.python-list at python.org>,
 "Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy)" <tdelaney at avaya.com> wrote:

> Besides, @ could possibly be reused for function attributes, meaning
> it's less "wasted" - there's also an obvious correlation in that both
> decorators and function attributes operate on the function object:
> 
> @classmethod
> def func (args):
>     @attr = 1
>     pass
> 
> Tim Delaney

Hey, an actual reason for the restricted syntax in the current decorator 
implementation: it makes it less likely that @decorators will conflict 
with potential other @syntaxes such as this @attribute one.

-- 
David Eppstein
Computer Science Dept., Univ. of California, Irvine
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/


From insert at spam.here  Mon Aug  9 11:41:14 2004
From: insert at spam.here (Doug Holton)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 10:41:14 -0500
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
In-Reply-To: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <AfudnVSGNqKBBorcRVn-iQ@comcast.com>

Fred wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> 	I'm currently checking out Python as an alternative to VB.Net
> to moving from VB, but can't find a GUI designer that is as good as
> VB.
> 
> I tried wxDesigner and wxGlade, but neither lets me move the widgets
> around. I also tried Dialogblocks, but it seems to only handle C++ or
> XRC, not Python.
> 
> Is this all there is, or is there a gem I missed?
> 

QT Designer, which you can use with PyQT and PyKDE (if on Linux), is 
probably most like the VB GUI builder.  But it is not free if you want 
to develop Windows apps (you'd probably want to purchase the BlackAdder 
version: http://www.thekompany.com/products/blackadder/ ).

But the best python GUI API on Windows is wxPython.  Check out the 
demo.py that comes with it.  I don't like any of the GUI designers for 
it, but I haven't really needed one.


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Tue Aug 24 17:01:43 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 17:01:43 -0400
Subject: advice for perl expert wanting to learn python
References: <slrncguga2.fcp.mordor@fly.srk.fer.hr>
	<b16e4ef7.0408240812.1846c9f8@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cggabn$klr$1@panix3.panix.com>

In article <b16e4ef7.0408240812.1846c9f8 at posting.google.com>,
Stephen Ferg <steve at ferg.org> wrote:
>
>I'm surprised nobody mentioned Martin Brown's book "Perl to Python
>Migration".
>
>The reviews indicate that although it has a lot of typos it is useful.

Well, that is not a review I would make.  I think it's just a couple of
notches better than "horrible" -- I believe any Perl programmer would be
much better off with a regular Python book.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From tdelaney at avaya.com  Tue Aug 24 17:58:44 2004
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy))
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 07:58:44 +1000
Subject: How does a "script" differ from a "program" or "subroutine"?
Message-ID: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01DCF4CE@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

tdi wrote:

> Ok, stupid question for the day. I'm reading the interview with Steve
> Moret and he says: "Once a lot of scripts started going in we knew
> there was no way we could back out of using Python."
> 
> I'm just getting into Python and am wondering if I'm missing something
> or this is just a semantic issue.

Lots of replies have focussed on "script" vs "program". However, Steve
was talking about something else in Temple of Elemental Evil - applying
scripts to objects and actions.

In this context, a "script" is any piece of code tied to a particular
object or action - for example, casting a spell results in a "script"
being run.

In this context, a script may be a function/subroutine, or a program, or
whatever. In the case of ToEE each "script" was implemented as a python
module.

Tim Delaney


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug 20 07:16:57 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 07:16:57 -0400
Subject: Rita Sue and Bob too
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2028.1093000050.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2028.1093000050.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4125DDA9.3080604@engcorp.com>

Ben Last wrote:

>>From: Peter Hansen [mailto:peter at engcorp.com]
>>(Ben, I don't think you need to post to both the python-list _and_
>>the comp.lang.python newsgroup: they mirror each other already!)
> 
> Hmmm - I wasn't aware that I was.  I'm posting (and reading) via the
> python-list mailing list.  I don't do USENET at all...

Oh, probably my bad.  I know lots of people do that, yet I don't
recall seeing both "python-list at python.org" and "comp.lang.python"
in the list of replies before.

After a bit of experimentation, I notice it does that only when
I do "Reply All" -- as I did with the one above -- to a post that was
sent to the mailing list...

Normally I don't do Reply All so I hadn't seen this before.
I suppose with proper message ids it shouldn't show up twice
as my reply did, but for some reason they are different on the
two messages so the mailing list and Usenet reply couldn't be
matched up and both ended up getting posted.  (This one was sent
only to the list to avoid the problem.)

-Peter


From fumanchu at amor.org  Sat Aug 21 20:22:43 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 17:22:43 -0700
Subject: J2 decorator grammar
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E20@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Michael Sparks wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Robert Brewer wrote:
> ...
> > Did you ever fix the scope issue?
> 
> I've fixed the scoping issue.

HOO-FREAKIN-RAY! :) Way to go! Now I feel we're a solid "go" for this
alternate proposal. I'm about 60% done writing and should have something
on c.l.p. by Monday morning. I'll send you an early draft tonight or
tomorrow, if you like (Paul McGuire, do you want one as well?). I expect
to have a couple of days of feedback and revisions from c.l.p., then
probably a "call for signatories/detractors"--Guido asked for an
assessment of the *whole* community's support for it, as opposed to just
those who don't like A1. Not another poll--I'd rather have consensus.

> The current patch uses "decorate" as the keyword. Changing 
> that of course
> is utterly trivial - it's also something I think *should* be changed.

A good-sized section of the proposal will address this, most likely
recommending a keyword or two but not demanding them over others Guido
may prefer. That's the one area that I think will remain mostly
subjective, although I plan to lay out some boundaries.

> The reason for suggesting this change is for one simple 
> reason - python
> makes often use of the idiom "decorate-dosomething-undecorate" - eg in
> sorting. Using decorate would probably clash heavily with 
> people's code.

For that reason (and others), I plan not to promote any form of the word
"decorate". We can start having that conversation now if you want. ;)

> > Might it have something to do with:
> > static void
> > symtable_node(struct symtable *st, node *n)
> > {
> 
> It certainly did! Your suggested change was necessary, however it was
> incomplete - the child to traverse also needed changing. (I really
> should've thought of that sooner - of course it's no longer zero! :)

Bah. I actually started typing a sentence mentioning that, but didn't,
since I wasn't familiar enough with the compiler to say "it needs this,
as well". Grr.

THANK YOU for moving us from 80% to 100! Excellent timing.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org

P.S. And I just watched the newly-released 'director's cut' of "The
Gathering" today. No Zathras yet, but at least I'm in the right
universe. ;)


From news at NOwillmcguganSPAM.com  Mon Aug 23 12:19:23 2004
From: news at NOwillmcguganSPAM.com (Will McGugan)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:19:23 +0100
Subject: Bug in string.lstrip?
In-Reply-To: <9EoWc.58$A8.18@edtnps89>
References: <9EoWc.58$A8.18@edtnps89>
Message-ID: <412a190c$0$31795$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>

Brian wrote:
> Hello - has anyone else had trouble with string.lstrip stripping too 
> much? Here's what I get (Python 2.3.4):
> 
>  >>> import string
>  >>> string.lstrip("test/one/two/a.b.c", "test/one/")
> 'wo/a.b.c'
>  >>> string.lstrip("test/one/two/a.b.c", "test/one")
> 'wo/a.b.c'
>  >>> string.lstrip("test/one/two/a.b.c", "test/one/tw")
> 'a.b.c'
>  >>>
> 
> Similar things happened with the strip() string method. Am I missing 
> something, or should I file a bug report?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> Brian

I think lstrip() just removes the characters that are contained in the 
second string. The order of characters in the second string is irrelevant.

For example..

 >>> "abcdefg".lstrip("bac" )
'defg'

Your examples are correct because it removes a run of any of the 
characters contained in the seconds string.

Perhaps someone can explain this better than I can. ;)

Will McGugan


From rnd at onego.ru  Tue Aug 17 10:21:58 2004
From: rnd at onego.ru (Roman Suzi)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 18:21:58 +0400 (MSD)
Subject: Mind.py
In-Reply-To: <41220b22@news.victoria.tc.ca>
References: <41220b22@news.victoria.tc.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408171820000.10301@suzi.com.onego.ru>


On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Arthur T. Murray wrote:

> Now, suppose that you wanted to write an AI in Python that would
> implement your mind-model and allow it to grow, mutate, develop.
> Here is one possible scenario.

... cross it with Tim Rue's autocoding and human race is obsolete.


Sincerely yours, Roman A.Suzi
-- 
 - Petrozavodsk - Karelia - Russia - mailto:rnd at onego.ru -




From Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com  Fri Aug  6 12:10:28 2004
From: Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com (Ames Andreas (MPA/DF))
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 18:10:28 +0200
Subject: Queue qsize = unreliable?
Message-ID: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA1E@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>

Hi,

Tim Peters wrote:

> There's no use case I know of where knowing "the exact current size"
> is necessary, except inside the implementation of Queue (where it
> can know it, but at the expense of locking out all other threads for
> as long as it takes to compute the result).

I've got one:  If you have the special situation that there is only a
single consumer with potentially multiple suppliers (or similarly if
you have it the other way around), you could implement the consumer in
a non-blocking manner.  Then it's not that important to get "the exact
current size" which would still be unreliable but it is important to
have a reliable empty method (or rather !empty() and full() are
reliable in this situation).  I think Queue is reliable in this
respect but to get it additionally non-blocking you will have to roll
your own queue.


cheers,

andreas



From bokr at oz.net  Thu Aug  5 17:01:20 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 5 Aug 2004 21:01:20 GMT
Subject: tweaking @decorator syntax
References: <b03e80d.0408040809.66c50ecf@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408041328420.13532-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu>
	<b03e80d.0408050041.1723eb3c@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1195.1091715452.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ceu770$lgd$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

On 05 Aug 2004 14:17:25 +0000, John Marshall <John.Marshall at ec.gc.ca> wrote:

>On Thu, 2004-08-05 at 08:41, Sandy Norton wrote:
>> On 4 Aug 2004, Christopher T King wrote:
>>     
>> > Of course, I prefer the nested block idea better (either with a new
>> > keyword or new syntax), but I don't see those (especially the syntax one) 
>> > flying anytime soon.
>> 
>> I know further discussion of this topic is feeling futile, but one can only hope.
>> 
>> > Unless someone can come up with an idea everyone can agree on Real Soon 
>> > Now, I think the whole idea should be dropped and wait until 3.0.  We'll 
>> > have plenty of time to argue about it then.
>> 
>> Agreed.
>> 
>> > Sorry about the long rant, but it felt good to get that all off my chest.
>> 
>> Please, we need more rants like yours. Now if they could somehow 
>> collectively become a 'public outcry' (-;
>> 
>> I realize my hasty initial post didn't actually show the present 2.4 form, 
>> so I've included it and added your variations for the sake of comparison:
>> 
>
>With the current choice and the list of alternatives you gave,
>two things struck me about the location of the decorators
>in the current choice:
>    1) They seem to be in the wrong place with respect to
>       what they are affecting.
>    2) Can decorators easily be extended to apply to class
>       and module?
>
>Whether or not the @ or some other operator/keyword/etc. is
>used, what is more easily understandable/readable?
>-----
>class Klass:
>    def __init__(self, name):
>        self.name = name
>    
>    @staticmethod
>    def statmethod1(x):
>        return x
>    
>    @classmethod
>    def classmethod1(cls):
>        return cls
>    
>    @funcattrs(name='GvR', language='python')
>    @log(file='func.log')
>    def sayhello(self):
>        print 'hello python world'
>-----
>or
>-----
>class Klass:
>    def __init__(self, name):
>        self.name = name
>    
>    def statmethod1(x):
>	@staticmethod
>
>        return x
>    
>    def classmethod1(cls):
>	@classmethod
>
>        return cls
>    
>    def sayhello(self):
>	@funcattrs(name='GvR', language='python')
>	@log(file='func.log')
>
>        print 'hello python world'
>-----
>
>If the decorators are metadata, that may be extended to affect
>not only functions or methods, but classes, and modules(?), I would
>think that wherever a variable or function call would go that
>would affect the function, method, class, or module, is the
>right place for a decorator.
>
>In the alternative above, it _may_ be that the decorators would
>only be valid if they are located in specific locations, e.g.,
>before any non decorator (or comment, or __doc__ information)
>statements.
>

ISTM that this "decorating" business is a lot like what __metaclass__ does
for classes -- i.e., right at the end of a definition, the system looks for
a function to provide an optional extension of the definition process.

In the case of @some_name, 'some_name' is looked up somewhere (where? locals(),
nested scopes, globals(), globals()['__builtins__'].__dict__ ?) and the value is
supposed to be an appropriate decorator function.

I'm thinking of an alternative that doesn't seem to have been mentioned before,
namely a built-in class and a standard instance of it, containing a namespace which
would be used to find decorators, and which could be overridden and specialized etc.

Thus
    @A @B
    def foo():
        return whatever()

might look like

    metafunctions.add(foo=(A, B)) # could precede def anywhere you like for coding clarity
    def foo():
        return whatever()

and python function definition internals would be modified a la class/__metaclass__
functionality to find A and B via metafunctions (best design TBD ;-) and call as now
specified. Perhaps this could be unified with __metaclass__ and we could have, e.g.,
    metafunctions.add(MyClass=type) # turn classic to new style

Obviously you could define metafunctions to apply default decorators, e.g.
    metafunctions.setdefault(A,B,C)
    metafunctions.do_default_for('foo bar baz'.split())
    def foo(): ...
    def bar(): ...
    etc.
If you wanted to suppress metafunctions altogether, you could by convention shadow it
with a local None, i.e.,
    metafunctions = None
    ...
    del metafunctions # restore visibility of builtin


Or if you wanted a local copy to mess with in a particular module or program,
(it would probably not be good to allow .add easily to modify the builtin itself
unless there was a way to restore it reliably) you could perhaps write
    metafunctions = __builtins__.metafunctions.copy()

or you could define your own class
   class MyMetfun(Metafunctions):
       ...

   metafunctions = MyMetafun(...)
   metafunctions.my_handy_method(...)

etc.

The time of action might also be controlled in the future if someone finds it useful.
I.e., the time for examples above is right at the end of the function or class definition.
It might be interesting to be able to have metafunctions act at other times when certain
things are recognized also. What about at the time of instantiation of an exception, e.g.,
to inject debugging info or whatever?
    if __debug__:
        metafunctions = __import__('mymagic').Magic() #??
        metafunctions.add('MyException' ...)

You might need some way of defining patterns to recognize besides a plain name string.
Of course, instantiation of an exception is just a special case of instantiating a class,
so we could have metafunctions decorating object instances too, without modifying the source
of their classes. Hm, what about decorating module instances on import?

This and other possibilities would make possible factoring code in new ways, I suspect,
but as I just thought of it, I haven't really thought about it any further than you see here ;-)
Some possibilities would probably be dangerous, cryptic, and inadvisable in most circumstances.
We already have plenty of that. IMO the question is whether ordinary usage would help make for clearer
and more powerful expressions of coding ideas, and perhaps introduce useful elements for thinking
up those ideas.

I'm not for "tweaking @decorator syntax" -- I'm for saving '@' for something worthier
of its scarce-syntax-resource status.

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From martindemello at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 25 04:26:26 2004
From: martindemello at yahoo.com (Martin DeMello)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:26:26 GMT
Subject: Why return None?
Message-ID: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>

It seems to be a fairly common pattern for an object-modifying method to
return None - however, this is often quite inconvenient.

For instance

def f(lst1, lst2):
  g((lst1 + lst2).reverse()) # doesn't work!

you need to say

def f(lst1, lst2):
  a = lst1 + lst2
  a.reverse()
  g(a)

this is actually getting in my way a lot when scripting Blender - for
instance, I can't say move(Vector([a,b,c]).normalize()), I have to do
	a = Vector([a,b,c])
	a.normalize()
	move(a)

but it seems to be recommended practice rather than a fault in the
Blender API, since the standard list does it. Is there any drawback to
returning self rather than None?

martin

c

  




From sross at connectmail.carleton.ca  Sat Aug  7 10:39:06 2004
From: sross at connectmail.carleton.ca (Sean Ross)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 10:39:06 -0400
Subject: Decorator syntax
References: <mailman.1173.1091670172.5135.python-list@python.org><38ednYT1NLz1P4zcRVn-uA@powergate.ca><JEiQc.16955$_25.574@fe2.texas.rr.com><Pine.LNX.4.44.0408050856390.31290-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu><2njp58F1jj1dU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<mailman.1335.1091875631.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<O%4Rc.49731$Vm1.1246946@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <uV5Rc.49780$Vm1.1254505@news20.bellglobal.com>


"Sean Ross" <sross at connectmail.carleton.ca> wrote in message
news:O%4Rc.49731$Vm1.1246946 at news20.bellglobal.com...
> def foo(a, b, c):
>     "foo can decorate itself, from the inside"
>     foo.decorate(abstract, synchronized, classmethod,
>                        accepts=(int,int,int), author='Chris King')
>     ...
>     ...

Actually, nevermind: foo's going to call decorate every time it's called.
Not good. Also it doesn't work with multi|generic method schemes, nor with
really_long_function_or_method_names().





From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Sun Aug 29 22:03:10 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 02:03:10 GMT
Subject: simple compiled languages?
References: <7xzn4fu188.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<_1bYc.855$2s.374@twister.nyroc.rr.com>
	<7xbrguvfn6.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<jNbYc.49640$Kt5.6261@twister.nyroc.rr.com>
	<psv4j0p9inej073bta5m9r6ug4ko6iiojk@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <yVvYc.39965$Jn5.26554@fe1.texas.rr.com>

"Leor Zolman" <leor at bdsoft.com> wrote in message
news:psv4j0p9inej073bta5m9r6ug4ko6iiojk at 4ax.com...
<snip>
> ...she then said she wanted to
> learn Python. I gave her the book and asked her to teach it to *me* after
> she figured it out ;-)
> -leor

... so what did she say the next day? :)

-- Paul




From fumanchu at amor.org  Thu Aug 26 18:03:16 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:03:16 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E8E@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Tim Peters wrote:
> [Robert Brewer]
> > The J2 proposal is as complete as it will ever be.
> >
> > http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html
> 
> Word to the wise:  Guido will have to scroll down 5 pages in his
> browser before he has any idea what "J2" might look like, at which
> point it appears to start with the senseless:
> 
> <token>:
> 
> He'll have to slog thru another 5 pages before seeing that "using" is
> the specific suggestion being made.
> 
> IOW, this is a truly wonderful presentation for people who have made
> this debate their life's primary hobby, but someone looking for its
> recommendation will probably give up before getting within 7 pages of
> it.
> 
> IOOW, start the page with a concrete J2-with-"using"-versus-pie
> example -- put the conclusion first, followed by reams of supporting
> argument.

I'll do my best. Thanks!


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From m_vddungen at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 28 09:31:22 2004
From: m_vddungen at yahoo.com (Marcel van den Dungen)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 06:31:22 -0700
Subject: Dynamic languages
References: <278de0e.0408271349.26762174@posting.google.com>
	<1093650026.763899@news.commspeed.net>
Message-ID: <98862c6.0408280531.6064d510@posting.google.com>

"Tom B." <sbabbitt at commspeed.net> wrote in message news:<1093650026.763899 at news.commspeed.net>...
> I doubt that this is what they mean but a dynamic language is a language
> that is still evolving (Python) as opposed to a dead language (COBOL).
> 
> They probably are referring to programs that can add and remove components
> during runtime.

Dynamic refers to the typing of variables. In Python variables get a
type dynamically when assigned a value.
See also: http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=4639
and several blog posting of Bruce Eckel on this subject:
http://www.mindview.net/WebLog/

Marcel.


From jacek.generowicz at cern.ch  Fri Aug 27 10:35:42 2004
From: jacek.generowicz at cern.ch (Jacek Generowicz)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 16:35:42 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <tyf3c28ps1t.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>

Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no> writes:

> often when re-factoring code, I need to change the indent level of
> some chunk of code.  due to the lack of an end marker, my Emacs has
> to use heuristics when re-indenting,

You've lost me here.

When you want to change the indent level of some chunk of Python code
in Emacs, you highlight the chunk of code and hit C-c > or C-c <.

I don't see any scope for heuristics here.

>     def appraise_insurance(rental_cars):
>         assert isinstance(rental_cars, (list, tuple))
>     
>         for car in rental_cars:
>         {
>             if car.make == "Lamborghini":
>                 car.insurance = 1000.00
>             elif car.make == "Lada":
>                 car.insurance = 50.00
>             else:
>                 car.insurance = 100.00
>         }
>         logger.debug("Insurance values updated")

> the single pair of braces is enough.  there is now no risk of Emacs
> including the debug line into the else branch unnoticed.

How about

    for car in rental_cars:
        if car.make == "Lamborghini":
            car.insurance = 1000.00
        elif car.make == "Lada":
            car.insurance = 50.00
        else:
            car.insurance = 100.00
            pass
        pass
    logger.debug("Insurance values updated")

?

Hmm ... not pretty, but at least it doesn't PERLize the language.

> what do you think?  should I write a PEP?

Yes please write a PEP. It will be formally rejected, thereby forming
an excellent reference to which we might direct people who come up
with similar ideas.


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 10 21:57:58 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 21:57:58 -0400
Subject: Static method object not callable
In-Reply-To: <CceSc.10654$nx2.3040@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <CceSc.10654$nx2.3040@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <cfbuf5$84e$1@sea.gmane.org>

Edward Diener wrote:
> This simple code example gives me the message, "TypeError: 'staticmethod'
> object is not callable".
> 
> class X(object):
>   def Y(x):
>     print x
>   Y = staticmethod(Y)
>   ad = { 1 : Y }
>   def Z(self):
>     self.ad[1](3)
> x = X()
> x.Z()
> print "Done."
> 
> I know there must be a way to have a class attribute reference a static
> method, and then call that static method through the reference, so if anyone
> can correct this it would be appreciated.
> 
> 
> 

Here are two alternatives.

class X(object):
   def Y(x):
     print x
   Y = staticmethod(Y)
   ad = { 1 : 'Y' }
   def Z(self):
     getattr(self, self.ad[1])(3)
x = X()
x.Z()
print "Done."


class X(object):
   def Y(x):
     print x
   Y = staticmethod(Y)
   def __init__(self):
     self.ad = { 1 : self.Y }
   def Z(self):
     self.ad[1](3)
x = X()
x.Z()
print "Done."



From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Sat Aug 21 09:22:18 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 09:22:18 -0400
Subject: Fate of lambda, Functional Programming in Python...
References: <412636D1.6070808@noaa.gov>
	<mailman.2073.1093028474.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<41265E67.A08409A6@juno.com> <2on5k1FcjmvdU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <10iej4bapn6rh04@news.supernews.com>


"Reinhold Birkenfeld" <reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net> wrote in
message news:2on5k1FcjmvdU1 at uni-berlin.de...
> Jeff Sandys wrote:
>
> > | > > Hi,all
> > | > >    I have a list like [(id,string),...],for example:
> > | > >
> > | > >    [(1,'xxxxx'),(7,'ppppp'),(4,'gggggg'),...]
> > | > >
> > | > >    I want to sort this list according to the id of each element.
> > | > >    After sorting,the list will become:
> > | > >
> > | > >    [(1,'xxxxx'),(4,'gggggg'),(7,'ppppp')...]
> > | >
> > | > list.sort sorts tuples by first argument, then second &c. If you
> > want
> > | > a custom sort order, look at the decorate-sort-undecorate pattern.
> > |
> > |  Or if you want to sort only on your Id, use a lambda:
> > |  l.sort(lambda x,y: cmp(x[0],y[0]))
> > |
> > |  To force sorting on just the nth element of the tuples, replace 0
> > with
> > |  n in the above.
> > |
> >
> > I think that lambda should be unlimited and expanded.  It already has
> > the
> > colon, block delimiter, so allow lambda to be a multistatement and
> > multiline
> > indented block!
>
> So in what point exactly is this different from a def(), then?

def() is a statement. It can't be used in an expression. That's
the crux of the problem, and always has been the crux of
the problem.

John Roth

> Reinhold




From nobody at nowhere.com  Mon Aug  9 16:13:46 2004
From: nobody at nowhere.com (Fred)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 22:13:46 +0200
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
	<urrku1-ko3.ln1@stargate.solsys.priv>
Message-ID: <onmfh01csl8ehnqqko28400jmijm5gd574@4ax.com>

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:20:27 +0200, Detlev Offenbach
<detlev at die-offenbachs.de> wrote:
>Give "eric3" a try (http://www.die-offenbachs.de/detlev/eric3.html). It
>is a complete Python IDE using Qt-Designer for GUI development and
>Qt-Linguist for translating the GUI.

Thx for the link :-)

Fred.


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 14:28:39 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 18:28:39 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: J2 decorator grammar
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E41@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <loom.20040823T201542-126@post.gmane.org>

Robert Brewer <fumanchu <at> amor.org> writes:
> with:
>     classmethod
>     .author = "Fran?ois Pinard"
> def foo(cls):
>     pass
> 
> def bar():
>     pass
> with bar:
>     staticmethod
>     .version = "0.2.4"
> 
> with:
>     .name = "New Item"
> thing = Item()
> with thing:
>     .color = "red"

The "with" syntax seems pretty reasonable for functions -- probably worth 
changing the proposal's:

Should not be a word with a planned future. This rules out "with" and "as".

to something like:

Should not be a word with a planned future of different semantics.  This rules 
out "as", and perhaps "with" (but see [link to this discussion]).

I have to say that I'm not a big fan of the implicit object of "with" for 
anything but defs.  "Explicit is better than implicit" being the rule, I don't 
see that we gain much by allowing implicit "with" objects for expressions in 
general -- the last example above is a little hard for me to read.

However, because funcdefs and classdefs are not expressions, but still might 
be reasonable objects of a "with" clause, I can see that a special syntax for 
these cases might be merited.

Just my two pfennings...

Steve



From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 12 23:03:39 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:03:39 -0400
Subject: decorator with keyword
In-Reply-To: <2o21foF65snnU2@uni-berlin.de>
References: <cffcir$q5p$02$1@news.t-online.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121024260.3440-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<ArGdnWxZ4Z5ZH4bcRVn-vA@powergate.ca>
	<2o21foF65snnU2@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <X5qdnYdQdNYRsoHcRVn-rA@powergate.ca>

Reinhold Birkenfeld wrote:

> Peter Hansen wrote:
>>The python-dev mailing list doesn't appear to have discussed this one
>>yet, but given that much of the, uh, "chatter" that I detect there
>>is about minor tweaking of the @pie syntax, I fear they are so not
>>likely to pay much attention to new syntaxes and it might be too
>>late to get much support for it amongst the core folks.  (Guido
>>referred to @pie as "the humble @decorator" yesterday...)
> 
> I'm sure it would help if every supporter of this syntax started a
> thread of his own on python-dev *wink*

Glad you put the wink in... I doubt that would help the
cause.

The syntax should be presented there, perhaps, preferably
by someone calm and reasonable (i.e. not me), but I think
the most valuable thing is to continue discussion here
until it's apparent (if that's going to happen) that there
is a fairly wide consensus that decorate: (possibly with
a different keyword) is far preferred to @pie...  At least,
I think that was roughly what was asked for of the masses,
if the masses had anything to say about the matter.

-Peter


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 05:24:02 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:24:02 +1000
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
In-Reply-To: <7x1xhyjjxv.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408230004350.22879-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>
	<mailman.2175.1093233838.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<q9OdnRDkR-VsMbTcRVn-pw@lmi.net>
	<mailman.2189.1093251786.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7x1xhyjjxv.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082302245ba112d8@mail.gmail.com>

On 23 Aug 2004 02:13:48 -0700, Paul Rubin
<"http://phr.cx"@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> Semi-OT: since there's been all this noise about not wanting to
> separate the decorators too much from the function name, etc., why are
> "accepts" and "returns" decorators instead of having that stuff in
> the function def itself?  E.g.:

At some point in the future, there probably will be a decent way to
spell the (optional) typing of arguments. The 'accepts()' and
'returns()' decorators are really just strawmen for example's sake -
if you like, you could use a more realistic example like
'applies(date(2004,5,1),date(2004,5,5))' or some such.


From zanesdad at bellsouth.net  Wed Aug 18 08:34:08 2004
From: zanesdad at bellsouth.net (Jeremy Jones)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 08:34:08 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <41234CC0.7030701@bellsouth.net>

Lucas Raab wrote:

>One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
>Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
>about....
>
>
>  
>
Is this a marketing survey?

age: 31
marital status: married - have 1 wife
parental status: 2 children
canine status: have 1 dog
feline status: 1 cat
employment status:  (very) thankfully have a (good) job
automobile status: 2 cars
sanity status: nearly none

Jeremy


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 06:37:02 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:37:02 +1000
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <cftpkf$acj$1@panix1.panix.com>
References: <20040814153534.8AC171E4007@bag.python.org>
	<e69d3ed204081706284b20ea8d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cft1h1$8ru$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<mailman.1804.1092754567.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cftpkf$acj$1@panix1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040819033744785024@mail.gmail.com>

On 17 Aug 2004 16:25:51 -0400, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> No, no, no, Americans get humor just fine -- what they don't get is
> irony.

That'd be "something like iron"?


From rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm  Fri Aug 20 11:37:21 2004
From: rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm (Roel Schroeven)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:37:21 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <ZFoVc.360$MR2.1503@news1.mts.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl> <ZFoVc.360$MR2.1503@news1.mts.net>
Message-ID: <RUoVc.220150$W9.10920991@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

Reid Nichol wrote:

> Gerrit Muller wrote:
> 
>> Roel Schroeven wrote:
>>
>>> Roel Schroeven wrote:
>>>
>>>> I spotted some errors in your list, added new entries, and made a 
>>>> histogram: http://roelschroeven.net/pythonages/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Very cool. It might be good idea to add a date and time at the top, 
>> since new datapoint keep coming in?
> 
> How about labels for the axes as well.

I thought it would be fairly obvious, but I added labels anyway. I'm not 
satisfied with there positioning though, and I don't know how to correct 
it (it's the first time ever I use matplotlib).

-- 
"Codito ergo sum"
Roel Schroeven


From hodges7 at cox.net  Sun Aug 15 16:38:04 2004
From: hodges7 at cox.net (Bill Hodges)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:38:04 -0500
Subject: undefined symbol: PyUnicodeUCS4_FromUnicode
In-Reply-To: <411c5b24$0$26992$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
References: <MgVSc.316$ni.147@okepread01>
	<411c5b24$0$26992$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
Message-ID: <bQPTc.3470$ni.3263@okepread01>

Martin,

Your dianosis is correct.
I compiled tcl to include UCS4 and
Python then compiled to UCS4
(nm revealed the difference).
PyQt compiled fine, However, it
still errors out the same way.
For some reason PyQt needs to be told to
include the UCS4 stuff in qt.so na d
I cannot find the key.

Do you have another suggestion.
----------------------------------------------------------
drt
psyco installed and used
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/site-packages/drt/drt.py", line 40, in ?
     from qt import *
ImportError: /usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/qt.so: undefined symbol: 
PyUnicodeUCS4_FromUnicode


Martin v. L?wis wrote:
> Bill Hodges wrote:
> 
>> output is:
>>
>> psyco installed and used
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>>   File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/site-packages/drt/drt.py", line 40, in ?
>>     from qt import *
>> ImportError: /usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/qt.so: undefined symbol: 
>> PyUnicodeUCS4_FromUnicode
>>
>> Any pointers on how to resolve?
> 
> 
> It appears that you have built qt.so for UCS-4, but the installed Python
> is UCS-2. Do "nm -D /usr/bin/python2.3|grep UCS" to verify that.
> 
> If so, make sure the pyconfig.h that you are using belongs to the
> /usr/bin/python you are using.
> 
> Regards,
> Martin


From claird at lairds.us  Thu Aug 19 19:08:08 2004
From: claird at lairds.us (Cameron Laird)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:08:08 GMT
Subject: Merging pdf documents with Python
References: <mailman.1968.1092928566.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<87hdqzt0sg.fsf@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <04nfv1-n9v.ln1@lairds.us>

In article <87hdqzt0sg.fsf at pobox.com>, John J. Lee <jjl at pobox.com> wrote:
><brianc at temple.edu> writes:
>[...]
>> >From: "Daryl Middleton" <dmidd at chartermi.net>  
>[...]
>> >Can python be used to merge pdf documents into a single pdf
>> file so that I
>[...]
>> http://www.reportlab.org/
>[...]
>
>www.reportlab.org is ReportLab's open source site.
>
>The part of ReportLab's software that lets you concatenate, and
>otherwise process, pre-existing PDF files (rather than making new PDF
>files) is called PageCatcher.  PageCatcher is not open source
>software.
>
>
>John

I write in Python.  I like ReportLab.  HOWEVER, when I concatenate
PDFs, I use pdcat.  See <URL:
http://phaseit.net/claird/comp.text.pdf/PDF_converters.html#concatenators >
for details.


From alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 17 20:23:28 2004
From: alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 17:23:28 -0700
Subject: what is wrong with this program?
Message-ID: <8f17f4bc.0408171623.4f055fb3@posting.google.com>

The following program is supposed to show a menu but it isnt showing
the drop down menus. It only shows the File and Help thing.

from Tkinter import *

def callback:
    print "Alhumdulillah

root = Tk()

#create menu

m = Menu(root)
root.config(menu=m)

filemenu = add_cascade(label="File", menu="filemenu")
filemenu.add_command(label="New", command=callback)
filemenu.add_separator()
filemenu.add_command(label="Quit", command=callback)

helpmenu = Menu(m)
m.add_cascade(label="Help", menu="helpmenu")
helpmenu.add_command(label="About", command=callback)

root.mainloop()

please help me fix it


From uche at ogbuji.net  Mon Aug  9 10:37:23 2004
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 07:37:23 -0700
Subject: Module for converting XML to Python object(s)?
References: <otdPc.224$df.27@bignews5.bellsouth.net>
	<41105a9c$1@news.iconz.co.nz>
Message-ID: <d116fbae.0408090637.5ffd2090@posting.google.com>

"Colin Brown" <cbrown at metservice.com> wrote in message news:<41105a9c$1 at news.iconz.co.nz>...
> "Robert Oschler" <no_replies at fake_email_address.invalid> wrote in message
> news:otdPc.224$df.27 at bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> > Has anybody seen a Python module that will take an XML document (not a
> > colossal one), and convert it to a Python nested class object?
> 
> Also pyRXP  ref: http://www.reportlab.org/pyrxp.html

PyRXPU (the only useful part of PyRXP) is not really what the OP was
asking for.  It creates lists and dicts rather than actual element
structures that can be accessed using the natural vocabulary from the
XML (e.g. "print html.head.title").


-- 
Uche Ogbuji                                    Fourthought, Inc.
http://uche.ogbuji.net    http://4Suite.org    http://fourthought.com
Perspective on XML: Steady steps spell success with Google -
http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp?id=9663
Use XML namespaces with care -
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-namcar.html
Managing XML libraries - http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp?id=9160
Commentary on "Objects. Encapsulation. XML?" -
http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp?id=9090
Harold's Effective XML -
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-think25.html
A survey of XML standards -
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-stand4/


From martin at v.loewis.de  Sun Aug  8 06:58:07 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 12:58:07 +0200
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar, but for what exactly?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1352.1091953503.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
	<mailman.1352.1091953503.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4116073F.7020506@v.loewis.de>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> The "Python of 1.5.2 simplicitly" is long, long gone. I don't agree that
> newer Python's are somehow worse because new things have been
> added. A short list:
> 
>   new style classes
>   foo(*arg, **kwarg)
>   iterators
>   generators 
>   list comprehensions

My favourite one: string methods.

Regards,
Martin


From peter at designtheory.org  Wed Aug  4 15:43:52 2004
From: peter at designtheory.org (Peter Dobcsanyi)
Date: 4 Aug 2004 19:43:52 GMT
Subject: pydesign 0.4 - combinatorial/statistical design computing
Message-ID: <cere9o$seh$2@beta.qmul.ac.uk>

The pydesign package is a collection of Python modules and applications
to provide a computational framework for working with combinatorial and
statistical designs.

For download, documentation, installation instructions please visit:

    http://designtheory.org/software/pydesign/

--             ,
    Peter Dobcsanyi


From hamilcar at tld.always.invalid  Tue Aug 10 13:31:18 2004
From: hamilcar at tld.always.invalid (Hamilcar Barca)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 11:31:18 -0600
Subject: Exceptions as a Control Structure
References: <411775aa$0$17867$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <20040810133118.154$yq@news.newsreader.com>

In article <411775aa$0$17867$626a14ce at news.free.fr> (Mon, 09 Aug 2004
15:01:38 +0200), Olivier Parisy wrote:

> I come from C++, where the use of exceptions as control
> structures is frowned upon for efficiency reasons.

In Bertrand Meyer's Eiffel, this is prohibited by the language design. 
Exceptions wouldn't have been my choice for this kind of control, but Dr.
van Rossum is far more educated than I.

> What is the Python canon on this topic ? 

Exceptions are a primary control structure.

> Are exceptions considered as reasonable control structures, or is
> StopIteration alone of its kind ?

Yes.  No.

-- 
"It's not like IBM can support Linux the way they support the mainframe
 operating system. They don't write the code for it."
-- Steve Ballmer.  http://news.com.com/2008-1082-998297.html.  25 Apr 2003



From jess.austin at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 20:13:21 2004
From: jess.austin at gmail.com (Jess Austin)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 17:13:21 -0700
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040824200256aff0f0@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.2329.1093405781.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b8ad139e.0408251613.1f7faa51@posting.google.com>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:29:38 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com>
wrote:
> 
> No. Function decorators are to functions as class decorators are to classes.
> 
> Class decorators are not in 2.4, because you can do most things you'd
> do with a class decorator by using a metaclass, but in a completely
> different way. In my opinion, class decorators _should_ be in 2.4,
> because they're a much saner way to handle many things that require a
> metaclass today.

So far we agree.

> [snip]  A metaclass allows the user
> to specify an object that builds classes in a new way. A decorator
> allows the user to specify a way to transform the already built
> function (or class, for class decorators).

This is effectively the same thing.  When you call a class object,
whether it is a classic class, new-style class, class with a
metaclass, decorated class, or some legal combination of the
preceding, it returns an object.  You can't have too many expectations
of that object, although typically it will have its __class__ variable
set to the class object you called originally.  Anything a metaclass
can do to the objects it creates (which are typically classes), a
decorator could do to objects (whether functions or classes) it
decorates, if only by creating another object and returning it instead
of the original object.  I'm assuming that the function returned by
the decorator must accept name, bases, dict as arguments just like a
metaclass must.  That returned function will perform in a more
flexible manner since you can also pass arguments to the decorator to
control its behavior - something you couldn't do with a metaclass.  A
factory and a filter are equivalent in the sense that once an object
has squirted out the back end, they don't have access to it anymore.

What differences are there?  There could be a running-time difference,
but who cares about class instantiation time?  Object instantiation
time is what matters.  Also, an object the class of which has
__metaclass__ set currently also has __metaclass__ set to the same
thing.  This seems like an ill-advised feature, through which
presumably you could do odd and unmaintainable things, although these
could also be done through __class__.__metaclass__.  It's also an
inaccurate feature - can a simple object be said to have a metaclass? 
To what would this be set for a class whose metaclass had a metaclass?

Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.2329.1093405781.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> I forgot one other point I meant to add - think about when the body of
> a class gets executed, vs when the body of a function gets executed.
> The former is at compile time, the latter is when the function is
> used.

This is a difference between classes and functions.  But maybe it
could be "swept under the rug" in the following way.  Code like this:

using:
    metaclass_decorator(baz)
class foo(bar):
    a = 1
    def moo(self):
        pass

could cause something similar to the following:

foo = metaclass_decorator(baz)('foo', (<class '__main__.bar'>,), {'a':
1, 'moo': <function moo at 0x00879E70>, '__module__': '__main__'})

Granted, this is slightly different from what a function decorator
does.  But the difference probably won't be felt by those who use
class decorators.  Besides the mischief inherent in the introduction
of another namespace floating around behind the __metaclass__ variable
of normal objects, I don't see anything metaclasses can do that class
decorators couldn't.  Class decorators can be passed arguments to
control what function they return (see "baz" above), but this doesn't
seem like a major difference.  So, no, I don't think that class
decorators would be _that_ different from metaclasses.

later,
Jess


From jblazi at hotmail.com  Sun Aug  1 04:14:08 2004
From: jblazi at hotmail.com (jblazi)
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 10:14:08 +0200
Subject: transforming a list into a string
References: <pan.2004.07.31.12.27.23.547000@hotmail.com>
	<roy-FFE1A6.09064731072004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.01.08.14.07.203000@hotmail.com>

Thx. Your solution is perfect for me as speed is not an issue here.

jb


From peter at engcorp.com  Wed Aug  4 13:19:04 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 13:19:04 -0400
Subject: help: Unit test fixture returning the same object
In-Reply-To: <9895e897.0408040851.21ac7caa@posting.google.com>
References: <9895e897.0408031533.26720ba0@posting.google.com>
	<nKGdnfWEjOtspo3cRVn-qg@powergate.ca>
	<9895e897.0408040851.21ac7caa@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <ovednbdu0IcWh4zcRVn-vQ@powergate.ca>

Michael McCracken wrote:

> So, I'm still surprised that id() would point to the same object every
> time, but I'm willing to believe it. 

Don't think of it using those words.  Think of it as "the new
object is being created at the same address as the old object
was at, so it's likely the first object created since the old
one was destroyed", or something like that.   At least that way
it's much easier to believe, much less of a coincidence, and
actually something that a number of people have encountered
over the years, though often with similar expressions of surprise
or disbelief. :-)

-Peter


From m.boeren at guidance.nl  Fri Aug 20 03:33:22 2004
From: m.boeren at guidance.nl (Marc Boeren)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:33:22 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
Message-ID: <0C77C7530EA52A4EBD1C47C80D1D291E17DE29@sbs.GuidanceBV.local>


My vote:

  J2 J2 A2

My notes: 
J2 could do with a better keyword, I like decorate but 'moddef' may be
better (modify def, pretty clear)
A2 or A1 is about the same for me and could have been a single A option

Cheerio, Marc.


From pink at odahoda.de  Thu Aug 19 16:05:48 2004
From: pink at odahoda.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:05:48 +0200
Subject: ZeroDivisionError: float division (baby steps)
In-Reply-To: <6daa8765.0408191133.2f2e22e3@posting.google.com>
References: <6daa8765.0408191133.2f2e22e3@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cg3184$vbr$02$1@news.t-online.com>

Artemisio wrote:
> I am a non programmer who just started with Python. So far I love it.
> 
> I would appreciate if you could help me fix this error I get taking this exercise:
> 
> count= 0
> sum= 0.0
> number= 1
> print "Enter 0 to exit the loop"
> 
> while number != 0 :
> 	number= input("Enter a number: ")
> 
> count= count + 1
> sum= sum + number
> 
> count= count -1
> print "The average is: ",sum/count
> #the error is in the above line
> 
> "ZeroDivisionError: float division"
> 
> Thank you in advance, Len
I think the two lines after input() should be indented as the belong to 
the while loop...


From CarolCarrot at sofsof.net  Mon Aug 16 15:52:27 2004
From: CarolCarrot at sofsof.net (Carol Carrot)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:52:27 -0600
Subject: mailman mailing list program
References: <PPidncd3ycQ1mbzcRVn-gg@comcast.com>
	<mailman.1758.1092684902.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Qb-dncqEe9nkjbzcRVn-uw@comcast.com>

now what is +1 QOTW.supposed to mean?






From spam at mouse-potato.com  Mon Aug 30 19:15:18 2004
From: spam at mouse-potato.com (Pascal Bourguignon)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 01:15:18 +0200
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4PGdnfsOfdDPi63cRVn-tA@speakeasy.net>
	<slrncj1745.t5q.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<41337FC9.8070902@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <87wtzgmd4p.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>

Antony Sequeira <usemyfullname at hotmail.com> writes:
> Windows (MS) is not 'Unixism'?

It's VMS'ism !

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never
stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and
neither do we.


From goden at simplified.com  Sat Aug 21 11:51:40 2004
From: goden at simplified.com (Eugene Oden)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 15:51:40 GMT
Subject: C language processing.
References: <845db307.0408210122.70bfd408@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <gcKVc.3838$b73.770@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com>

stephen henry wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> I'm looking for a python module that would allow me to take an input
> file written in 'c' and modify the contents to allow me to, for
> example, add arguments to functions, insert macros at specific
> locations etc. I have no formal education in computer science , but,
> what I believe I'm looking for is somesort of parser (or lexer?).
> 
> So far, I found a bunch of pasers (SimpleParse and SPARK) but these
> seem to be quite generic -non-language specifc. I was hoping that the
> 'c' langauge was sufficiently well known to be supported natively,
> meaning that I would't need to enter the grammar rules into the
> parser.
> 
> Does anybody know of a way of doing this in python? (Or, for that
> matter, with Perl, as I would be learning either language to carry
> this out.)
> 
> Stephen Henry


i've had some luck using pybison (http://www.freenet.org.nz/python/pybison/)
using a freely available c grammar which is now included in the pybison
distribution.  it'll do the work of building a parse tree but you'll have
to take it from there.

later,

gene


From ramen at lackingtalent.com  Fri Aug 27 14:48:30 2004
From: ramen at lackingtalent.com (Dave Benjamin)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:48:30 -0000
Subject: Alex Martelli: Welcome back!
References: <slrnciunmu.tkp.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
	<1gj70s0.cc0xt0bs9aduN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <slrnciv1es.t6n.ramen@lackingtalent.com>

In article <1gj70s0.cc0xt0bs9aduN%aleaxit at yahoo.com>, Alex Martelli wrote:
> Dave Benjamin <ramen at lackingtalent.com> wrote:
> 
>> It's nice to see you around here again!
> 
> Thanks!  Hope I can stay a while...

Did you leave in frustration or did you just get busy?

-- 
 .:[ dave benjamin: ramen/[sp00] -:- spoomusic.com -:- ramenfest.com ]:.
        "talking about music is like dancing about architecture."


From tdelaney at avaya.com  Fri Aug 13 02:58:01 2004
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy))
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:58:01 +1000
Subject: Why I love python.
Message-ID: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01CF47CB@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

Anthony Baxter wrote:

> On 12 Aug 2004 17:05:34 -0700, Michael Scarlett <bitshadow at yahoo.com>
> wrote: 
>> [ pie decorators ]
>> Am i the only one with a
>> visceral reaction to this thing???
> 
> So did you have a similar reaction on first hitting the indentation
> for blocks? I know I dimly recall thinking that this was very strange
> and horrible (dimly, because it was 1992 or 1993).

Personally, no. I loved them :) But that could be because it matched the
indentation I enforced on my own code pretty much identically.

Strangely enough, people had always commented on my "excessive use of
whitespace" whilst at the same time commenting that my code was "the
most readable they'd ever seen". And very few people seemed to link the
two statements ... ;)

But @decorators before the def at the same indentation level just
doesn't work for me. Too much information to process at once - I have
real problems finding the name of the function, even having set up
syntax colouring to handle it. The name just gets lost in the noise.

Tim Delaney


From secun at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 16 14:27:05 2004
From: secun at yahoo.com (ChrisH)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:27:05 GMT
Subject: Help with reading WinXP registry
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAA48bIjzpX0xGAzADAT0HvxsKAAAAQAAAAVqfhDgP4E0qTmcIwnJq3yQEAAAAA@TheFlorys.org>
	<mailman.1744.1092674965.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <MPG.1b8ac6a664892869989687@news2.atlantic.net>

Here is an example.

from _winreg import *

print r"*** Reading from SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run 
***"
aReg = ConnectRegistry(None,HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE)

aKey = OpenKey(aReg, r"SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run") 
for i in range(1024):                                           
    try:
        n,v,t = EnumValue(aKey,i)
        print i, n, v, t
    except EnvironmentError:                                               
        print "You have",i," tasks starting at logon..."
        break          
CloseKey(aKey)                                                  

print r"*** Writing to SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run 
***"
aKey = OpenKey(aReg, r"SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run", 
0, KEY_WRITE)
try:   
   SetValueEx(aKey,"MyNewKey",0, REG_SZ, r"c:\winnt\explorer.exe") 
except EnvironmentError:                                          
    print "Encountered problems writing into the Registry..."
CloseKey(aKey)

CloseKey(aReg)            





In article <mailman.1744.1092674965.5135.python-list at python.org>, 
miki.tebeka at zoran.com says...
> Hello David,
> 
> > Is there a better way to access the registry in a Win32 system?
> Try the _winreg module with the ...Ex functions.
> 
> HTH.
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Miki Tebeka <miki.tebeka at zoran.com>
> http://tebeka.spymac.net
> The only difference between children and adults is the price of the toys
> 


From olli at haluter.fromme.com  Tue Aug 24 09:45:38 2004
From: olli at haluter.fromme.com (Oliver Fromme)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 13:45:38 GMT
Subject: How does a "script" differ from a "program" or "subroutine"?
References: <cge1h0$8qd@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <2p0v42FfaqerU1@uni-berlin.de>

tdi <ted at soleburymountain.com> wrote:
 > Ok, stupid question for the day. I'm reading the interview with Steve
 > Moret and he says: "Once a lot of scripts started going in we knew
 > there was no way we could back out of using Python."
 > 
 > I'm just getting into Python and am wondering if I'm missing something
 > or this is just a semantic issue.

Historically, the term "script" means a batch job, i.e. a
sequence of OS commands that are executed in an automated
manner (as opposed to typing those commands interactively),
with very limited possibilities of loops, conditionals and
variables.  DOS batch files (.BAT) are a typical example.

The term "program" means complex processing instructions
which implement algorithms in a particular programming
language (which does not normally contain OS commands
directly).

With some languages, the differences become very small, and
people tend to pay less attention to the distinction, so
"scripts" and "programs" are used as synonyms.  For example,
some advanced UNIX shells (like the zsh) have features that
support complex programming, such as various kinds of loops
and conditionals, arrays, dictionaries etc.

Python is more a programming language than a scripting
language (more than Perl, at least), although you can very
well use it for tasks which would typically be written in a
scripting language.

A subroutine is just another name for a procedure or a
function, i.e. a piece of program code that performs a
specific task, and which can be called from within the
program (once or multiple times).  You can define sub-
routines in almost every language (both for programming
and for scripting).

Best regards
   Oliver

-- 
Oliver Fromme, Konrad-Celtis-Str. 72, 81369 Munich, Germany

``All that we see or seem is just a dream within a dream.''
(E. A. Poe)


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sun Aug  8 04:20:55 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 18:20:55 +1000
Subject: elements of decorator syntax suggestions
In-Reply-To: <4115CDA8.1A8AD51D@alcyone.com>
References: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>		<mailman.1298.1091815362.5135.python-list@python.org>		<4edc17eb.0408062125.231f7bef@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1324.1091857951.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<41155C33.37EEB397@alcyone.com>
	<4edc17eb.0408072041.7bfe9eff@posting.google.com>
	<4115CDA8.1A8AD51D@alcyone.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040808012076f74273@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 23:52:24 -0700, Erik Max Francis <max at alcyone.com> wrote:
> @ sure takes up more visual space and is easier to spot in text than |,
> which is precisely why I used it in EmPy as the token prefix (also
> because @ at the time is neither commonly used in English text or legal
> in Python, though the latter will be changing).

The far-more-obvious-in-code is my reason for preferring @ over |. 

The other point that's been raised is that | looks similar to l and I
in a bunch of fonts, and I is a common prefix (for interfaces).


From zathras at thwackety.com  Tue Aug 17 04:08:35 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:08:35 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
In-Reply-To: <1a517b5.0408161608.46c2023c@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408170841240.8669-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>

On 16 Aug 2004, Bryan Olson wrote:

> Michael Sparks:
> > On Sun, 15 Aug 2004, Nick Patavalis wrote:
> > ...
> > > For me it would be *tremendously* usefull if one could yield across
> > > multiple levels of function calls. If this was supported, then most
> > > uses of O/S treads could be replaced by generators.
> >
> > You can do this already if you use Armin Rigo's Greenlets which, whilst
> > included in Stackless appear to work perfectly fine with standard python.
> > (I've only tested with 2.3 FWIW)
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong: Greenlets use a c-language extension to
> do the routine switching; implementing the same in pure Python is
> infeasable.

Correct. I never claimed that doing this in "pure" python was possible -
largly because I think such a concept is pretty silly.

After all, what is "pure" anyway?
   * Is using a module that comes with python allowed?
   * If so is using a module written in C acceptable?
      * If so what if greenlets gets included at some point in time, do
        modules included cease being "pure", or would greenlets be
        redefined?.
      * Also if using a builtin module written in C is "pure" then why are
        modules written in C not included not "pure"?
      * You might conclude then that "pure" python couldn't use
        modules written in C whether included with the interpreter or not.
  * If you conclude that what about the python interpreter? That'ss
     written in C, so *that's* not pure if you mean code that only using
     python anywhere in the system. (if you allow the interpreter, why
     not modules that come with it?)

You just end up (IMO) having contradictory arguments about purity if you
go down that route. After all someone has proposed using threads as a pure
implementation. Is *that* "pure"? Is the threading code written in python
or C? (Looks like C on my system - but it's declared "pure" ;-)

IMO, the question is one of practicality. It is practical to use
generators to build concurrent systems - and it works pretty well. If
that's not good enough it is practical to using concurrency implementated
as an extension to python. If that's not good enough, it is practical to a
different implementation of python. Or if concurrency in a single thread
isn't sufficient you can change to threads or processes.

I prefer "practical python" over "pure python" ;-)

> Generators rock, but they have a shadow of the power of co-routines.
> Continuations are more powerful still.

And if you choose appropriate coding conventions every problem domain that
co-routines and continuations can solve, generators can be used with
almost equal effectiveness.

Having written large amounts of code using generators to gain parallelism
in a single thread I don't say that lightly. I've found their simplicity
useful for limiting the complexity of the architecture. After all if any
piece of software is use for any length of time maintainability comes
before elegance. (unfortunately the two don't always go hand in hand)

Teasingly, ;-)


Michael



From tim.peters at gmail.com  Sat Aug  7 01:52:28 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 01:52:28 -0400
Subject: elements of decorator syntax suggestions
In-Reply-To: <4edc17eb.0408062125.231f7bef@posting.google.com>
References: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1298.1091815362.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4edc17eb.0408062125.231f7bef@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1f7befae04080622522200e695@mail.gmail.com>

[Michele Simionato]
> What about "-" ?
>
> - syncronized

That's already (pre-2.4) valid Python, so could change the meaning of
existing code -- won't happen.

> - classmethod
> def f(cls, *args):
>   pass
>
>
> Any punctuation already used in current Python
> would go for me (., :, -, +, *, /, |, \, ^, etc. etc.) !

Overloading a unary prefix operator is out.  As Anthony said, vertical
bar seemed to be the leading contender on python-dev Friday.  You can
find tedious arguments there about most of the others that would go
for you.


From miki.tebeka at zoran.com  Wed Aug 25 07:44:18 2004
From: miki.tebeka at zoran.com (Miki Tebeka)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:44:18 +0200
Subject: 100 % portable ?
In-Reply-To: <1f7befae0408231057a376ac6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <rp_Vc.221989$xO.10939509@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<sl1nv1-7jm.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com> <2otm5mFed44hU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<slrncikbc9.251.davecook@localhost.localdomain>
	<1f7befae0408231057a376ac6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040825114417.GR1948@zoran.com>

Hello Tim,

> [Bernd Kaiser]
> >> You can use os.environ["HOME"], this will return the user's home dir.
>  
> [Dave Cook]
> > Doesn't work in win9x AFAIK.  I do notice that some people are
> > starting to require XP for their apps.
> 
> HOME isn't defined on my vanilla XP box.  HOMEDRIVE and HOMEPATH are, though.
import user
print user.home

Bye.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Miki Tebeka <miki.tebeka at zoran.com>
http://tebeka.spymac.net
The only difference between children and adults is the price of the toys


From LISTSERV at LISTS.NCTE.IE  Tue Aug 31 05:31:37 2004
From: LISTSERV at LISTS.NCTE.IE (L-Soft list server at N.C.T.E. (1.8d))
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:31:37 +0100
Subject: Message ("Your message dated Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:29:34...")
Message-ID: <0I3B008DD14P59@mail.ncte.ie>

Your message dated Tue, 31 Aug  2004 10:29:34 +0100 with subject "Re: Your
document" has been submitted to the moderator of the NEWS list: Se?n Dower
<sdower at NCTE.IE>.


From calidusdk at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 19 15:33:54 2004
From: calidusdk at hotmail.com (Artemisio)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 12:33:54 -0700
Subject: ZeroDivisionError: float division (baby steps)
Message-ID: <6daa8765.0408191133.2f2e22e3@posting.google.com>

I am a non programmer who just started with Python. So far I love it.

I would appreciate if you could help me fix this error I get taking this exercise:

count= 0
sum= 0.0
number= 1
print "Enter 0 to exit the loop"

while number != 0 :
	number= input("Enter a number: ")

count= count + 1
sum= sum + number

count= count -1
print "The average is: ",sum/count
#the error is in the above line

"ZeroDivisionError: float division"

Thank you in advance, Len


From curzio.basso at unibas.ch  Wed Aug 11 04:12:33 2004
From: curzio.basso at unibas.ch (Curzio Basso)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:12:33 +0200
Subject: how to dispatch objects depending on their class
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1454.1092151623.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <4118dd4a$1@maser.urz.unibas.ch>
	<mailman.1454.1092151623.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4119d4f7$1@maser.urz.unibas.ch>

Casey Duncan wrote:

> It should not be a problem to use the actual class object as keys in the
> dict and the functions as values. No need to convert the class to
> strings.

Ops, did not think about that. But maybe the string is a more efficient key?

> So why can't they be static methods of the classes exactly? That would
> be simpler, however the dict will work efficiently.

Well, as I wrote in the original post and in some reply, I want to keep 
the logic of this particular function separated from the class 
hierarchy. And as cmedcoff at hotmail.com suggested this could be a Visitor 
pattern. I'm looking on that.

cheers, curzio


From dave at pythonapocrypha.com  Mon Aug  9 11:11:32 2004
From: dave at pythonapocrypha.com (Dave Brueck)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 09:11:32 -0600
Subject: Queue qsize = unreliable?
In-Reply-To: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA1F@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>
References: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA1F@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>
Message-ID: <41179424.5020806@pythonapocrypha.com>

Ames Andreas (MPA/DF) wrote:
> Jeff Shannon wrote:
> 
>>No you don't.  You simply execute a non-blocking get(), and be
>>prepared to catch the Queue.Empty exception.  Similarly, if you want
>>a non-blocking producer, then you execute a non-blocking put() and
>>catch the Queue.Full exception.
> 
> I've actually read the docs some time ago, but I've also read the
> source.  I think the problem is here that "non-blocking" isn't very
> well defined.

I assume it means "non-blocking from the caller's perspective" (see below).

> In the sense that the consumer won't wait until something gets
> available from an empty Queue you are absolutely right with calling
> Queue.get(False).  But if you look at the source you will find that
> the first thing that's done in Queue.get() is aquiring a mutex/cv
> lock.  That's potentially quite blocking as far as I am concerned.

But is it blocking in any way that you (the caller) will likely notice? 
(probably not - the mutex is held for a relatively short period of time. 
Note also that the mutex that gets acquired is not the "main" mutex of 
the Queue.)

> With CPython's assertions about atomicity of certain list operations
> it's possible to implement a lock free queue that is even usable for
> the single producer or single consumer case.

If you have the single producer and/or single consumer case, you don't 
need a Queue at all - just use a built-in list (or in 2.4 a 
collections.deque object).

>>That's really the only reliable way to tell whether the queue is
>>empty or full, anyhow...
> 
> 
> I don't understand why this is more reliable than what I described in
> my scenario.  If, for example, you have a single consumer then:
> 
> if !q.empty():
>    reliableCode()
> else
>    unreliableCode()
> 
> should be absolutely okay.

It'd probably _work_, yes, but would it offer any real advantage? On 
that particular mutex, there's almost never any contention at all - 
*especially* in e.g. the single consumer case. And, even if there is 
some contention, it is acquired for an extremely short amount of time 
(relatively speaking) - which is why the caller is not likely to notice 
that any locking is going on under the covers. The cost of having both 
reliableCode and unreliableCode paths seems to outweigh any potential 
advantage IMO.

-Dave


From arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE  Mon Aug 23 14:12:57 2004
From: arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE (Arien Malec)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 18:12:57 GMT
Subject: PEP318: radical notion
Message-ID: <Xns954E72EC48C5Earienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>

Apologies for feeding the fire, when we are rallying around a consensus, 
but I've been concerned about the clash between syntax and semantics, and 
I've finally reached a mini-epiphany:

The problem with PEP318 is that it is too powerful, and tries to do too 
much. It is a sledgehammer for attacking three problems:

1) Metadata, a la Java and C#
2) class & static method defs
3) Arbitrary post-definitional transformations of functions.

(where 2 is a special frequent use case that's part of 3).

We have ueber-powerful semantics (implementing 3), trying to solve 
problems with very different semantics (e.g., 1).

OK, that's what I know. Here's a proprosal, that may or may not work, 
because my knowledge of metaclass programming is only sketchy:

1) Make PEP318 *only* implement problem (1). That is, create sematics for 
defining and retrieving function/method/class metadata
2) Create a new default metaclass that uses metadata for class/static 
method definitions to perform the necessary class/staticmethod 
transformations. Perhaps use this metaclass as default in 2.4 only via a 
"from __future__ import foo".
3) Leave any arbitrary transformations to be implemented via custom 
metaclasses -- these metaclasses will have access to the custom metadata 
to trigger method def transformations.

Arien


From jbors at mail.ru  Thu Aug  5 14:01:23 2004
From: jbors at mail.ru (Dmitry Borisov)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 22:01:23 +0400
Subject: Need help on how to use Pymedia!
In-Reply-To: <opuQc.1380$nx2.276@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <E1BsmYN-0007Lk-00.jbors-mail-ru@f25.mail.ru>

From: "CptPicard" 
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 17:48:04 GMT
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Need help on how to use Pymedia!

> > Here is the code which will give you what you need( from pycar ). It is
> modified to match what you need and therefore not tested.:
> >
> >     f= open( <file_name>, 'rb' )
> >     dec= acodec.Decoder( <file_extension> )
> >     s= f.read( 20000 )
> >     fr= dec.decode( s )
> >     # Hardcoding for mp3 IDv1 tags
> >     if not dec.hasHeader() and <file_extension>== 'mp3':
> >       f.seek( -128, 2 )
> >       dec= acodec.Decoder( 'mp3' )
> >       dec.decode( f.read( 128 ) )
> >
> >     print dec.getInfo()
> 
> I appreciate your support.
> I understand that this is a piece of code specially written for fixing my
> problem but where could I find such example in pycar ? I looked for Decoder
> in the pycar source code (pymedia*-src) and found no match.
> 
> Do you include support for tag IDv2 too ?

Yes it is. 
The code is located in pycar/audio/aplaylist.py class AudioFileList.getFileParams()
The source for pycar is here: http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/pymedia/pycar-1.0.0-pre2-src.zip
Dmitry/




From roy at panix.com  Fri Aug  6 08:19:43 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 08:19:43 -0400
Subject: @decorators
References: <d22692a3.0408052234.7230fd74@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <roy-B53A92.08194306082004@reader1.panix.com>

A few random comments:

I really dislike the proposed syntax, for two main reasons.  First, I 
don't like the idea of inventing new uses for punctuation (down that 
road lies perl).  Second, I don't like the idea that you're creating a 
contextual block which violates (or at least ignores) the normal 
indenting rules.

I just went to read pep-318 in its entirety, and discovered that the 
last modified date is only a few hours ago.  People might want to go 
read the latest version.

I'm also wondering about doc strings.  Doc strings are really metadata, 
and if the idea of decorators is to build a uniform way to handle 
metadata, it would be nice to see it somehow include docstrings.  There 
are clearly backward compatability issues to worry about, however.

I'm also thinking about programming by contract.  It seems like the pre- 
and post-condition assertions could also be thought of as meta-data.  
Some of the examples in the PEP hint at doing this, but don't address 
things contract inheritance.  Has there been any discussion of this?

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, I'm rather distressed at the tone 
of some of the postings I've seen here over the past couple of days.  
Some of the sentiments I've seen expressed are downright rude, 
combative, and accusatory.  These sorts of things are way out of line.

Come on folks.  It should be possible to express an opinion, even a 
strongly held one, without resorting to accusations of sinister plots or 
evil intent.  I may not like the proposal, but at the same time I'm 
hugely appreciative of the hard work put in by the folks who proposed 
it, paid their own way to go to meetings where it was discussed, wrote 
the code, did the builds, etc, etc.  They deserve accolades, not 
hostility.


From rkern at ucsd.edu  Tue Aug 24 12:36:00 2004
From: rkern at ucsd.edu (Robert Kern)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:36:00 -0500
Subject: Weave - inline C
In-Reply-To: <6f402501.0408232319.5967f0d@posting.google.com>
References: <6f402501.0408232319.5967f0d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgfqpg$kvt$1@news1.ucsd.edu>

Michael Foord wrote:
> Has anyone had success using weave with gcc for windows (standard
> windows distribution python)?
> 
> I have my distutils setup to use gcc (via mingw32) - which it does
> fine. I've compiled and installed various modules with it. Weave
> itself installs fine, picking up the settings from distutils.
> 
> However it has it's own version of distutils 'scipy_distutils' that it
> uses to compile the C it is given - which complains that it can't find
> msvcc.... The documentation included (which is actually for the 0.2
> version) gives no hints and I wondered if anyone had any success in
> using it ?

Use compiler='gcc' as a keyword argument for weave.inline(), etc.

Yes, the documentation is fantastically out of date.

> Regards,
> 
> 
> Fuzzy

-- 
Robert Kern
rkern at ucsd.edu

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
  Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
   -- Richard Harter


From ben at benlast.com  Mon Aug 16 07:34:00 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:34:00 +0100
Subject: Best programming language
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408161355020.1793@rnd.onego.ru>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPMENACDAA.ben@benlast.com>

Perhaps Pythonistas just hold this truth to be self-evident :)
b

> -----Original Message-----
> From: python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org
> [mailto:python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org]On Behalf Of
> Roman Suzi
> Sent: 16 August 2004 10:56
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Re: Best programming language
> This probably indicates that Python in not well enough described as "best"
> for certain domains while Ruby isn't as humble ;-)



From ramen at lackingtalent.com  Wed Aug 25 20:26:23 2004
From: ramen at lackingtalent.com (Dave Benjamin)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:26:23 -0000
Subject: Am I on the right path
References: <cginhf$5ff@odak26.prod.google.com>
	<10ipp5jbau4hb06@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <slrnciqcga.q4g.ramen@lackingtalent.com>

In article <10ipp5jbau4hb06 at corp.supernews.com>, ADE wrote:
> Nope just a project I wouldn't know how to create a virus worm or spambot
> 
> I am just learning how to program in python
> 
> But thanks for your concern as I can see the potential of something like
> this

Glad to see we're all so forward-thinking here. Remember, for your virus to
work properly, you'll need to make sure it downloads and installs the Python
language environment onto every host. PythonWin would be helpful too,
assuming you're targetting Windows boxes.

Good luck,
Dave

-- 
 .:[ dave benjamin: ramen/[sp00] -:- spoomusic.com -:- ramenfest.com ]:.
        "talking about music is like dancing about architecture."


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Thu Aug 26 22:11:19 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:11:19 +1000
Subject: key storage
In-Reply-To: <412E8E53.20203@harvee.org>
References: <1093569139.412e8a738462b@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
	<412E8E53.20203@harvee.org>
Message-ID: <1093572678.412e9847046d9@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

i have already read the paper and am following the hints mentioned in the
paper and also work in the same area mentioned in a couple of reports from
the Open Web application security project.
the MIT paper mentions including HMAC's in the cookie and so on. the
question still is - how are the keys stored? HMAC's require a key, as do
digital signatures. how are all these keys stored in a secure manner on
the server? obviously they's be encrypted but then the key used for
encrypting the above key - how is that stored?
if you have implemented the system...can i ask you how you stored the keys?

cheers


Quoting "Eric S. Johansson" <esj at harvee.org>:

> Ajay wrote:
>
> > hi!
> > i am building a web application. for client authentication, i am using
> > cookies which include the HMAC of the data.
> > the server also has a public/private key pair for signing and
> verifying
> > information.
>
> start here.  This is a really good site for Web based authentication
> techniques.  I've implemented the system and you are more than welcome
> to the code.  It may need some disentangling from my CGI/form
> support/template environmentbut don't say you weren't warned.  ;-)
>
> http://cookies.lcs.mit.edu/pubs/webauth.html
>
> let me know if I can help
>
> --- eric
>
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


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From lbates at swamisoft.com  Thu Aug 19 09:53:24 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:53:24 -0500
Subject: singleton (newbie)
References: <b68d2f19.0408181413.70f2a91b@posting.google.com><F-2dnYQF94Kxcb7cRVn-qw@comcast.com>
	<mailman.1915.1092879132.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <poudnW7flfVMLbncRVn-hQ@comcast.com>

Seems you are correct.  I should have written:

class B:
    x = 0
    y = 1

    def foo(self):
        print self.__class__.x

    def bar(self):
        print self.y
        self.__class__.y+=1

if __name__ == "__main__":
    b=B()
    b.foo()
    b.bar()
    b.foo()
    b.bar()
    b.bar()
    a=B()
    a.foo()
    a.bar()
    a.bar()


Thanks for pointing this out.

-Larry

"Nicolas ?vrard" <nicoe at no-log.org> wrote in message
news:mailman.1915.1092879132.5135.python-list at python.org...
> * Larry Bates  [01:54 19/08/04 CEST]:
> >2) I continue to read on c.l.p. about staticmethods and
> >   just don't understand why anyone would use them.  This
> >   is how I learned to write this in Python.  It seems that
> >   they are some sort of "carryover" from another language.
> >   I'd be the first to admit I don't understand the appeal,
> >   so maybe they can be useful.  I've just never needed them.
> >   If I need a static function, I just write it that way.
> >   I don't make it the method of a class object.
> >
> >if you want x, y to be global across all instances of B:
> >
> >class B:
> >    x = 0
> >    y = 1
> >
> >    def foo(self):
> >        print self.x
> >
> >    def bar(self):
> >        print self.y
> >        self.y+=1
> >
> >if __name__ == "__main__":
> >    b=B()
> >    b.foo()
> >    b.bar()
> >    b.foo()
> >    b.bar()
> >    b.bar()
>
> It won't work. Different instances of B will have different values for
> y.
>
> -- 
> (?>  Nicolas ?vrard
> / )  Li?ge - Belgique
> ^^




From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Wed Aug 11 01:08:14 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:08:14 +1000
Subject: rsa implementation question
Message-ID: <1092200894.4119a9beb1978@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

just like to know how the RSA implementation in the pcrypto package works.
Does it operate in blocks, if yes, what is the size of the blocks?

thanks

cheers
--
Ajay Brar,
CS Honours 2004
Smart Internet Technology Research Group





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From atterdan at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 11 15:57:43 2004
From: atterdan at yahoo.com (John Doe)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 19:57:43 GMT
Subject: using os.major
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.11.19.57.41.169115@yahoo.com>

Does anyone understand what a 'raw device number' is with respect
os.major() and os.minor()

Found in os-file-dir.html, section 6.1.4, os.major() description is:

major(device)
    Extracts a device major number from a raw device number. New in
    version 2.3.

The problem is, after searching I can only find two references to 'raw
device number'. Naturally they are in os.major() and os.minor().

There seems to be something related to fileno, but that never returns the
value I know is true. In particular, Linux /dev/fd0 is (2/0).

Example:
--------------------------------
>>> fd = open('/dev/fd0')
>>> from os import major,minor
>>> fd.fileno()
3
>>> major(fd.fileno())
0
>>> minor(fd.fileno())
3
>>> from os import popen3
[instd,outstd,errstd] = popen3( 'file /dev/fd0' )
>>> outstd.read()
'/dev/fd0: block special (2/0)\n'

As you can see, Major is 2, minor is 0. Which is also what ls -l /dev/fd0
reports.
--------------------------------

I've written a function to parse up the 'file /dev/fd0' results, but I'd
rather us the correct built in, or included modules, before writing my
own.

atterdan at yahoo.com


From c0dec at gmx.de  Sat Aug 28 03:52:36 2004
From: c0dec at gmx.de (Henning Kage)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:52:36 +0200
Subject: Question about references/copies
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.28.07.52.35.422774@gmx.de>

I'm using Python only for some months now and I'm wondering, whether such
assignments as above are creating bitwise copies of an object or just
recieve a reference. That means I wanted to know, wheter Python in general
differs between references and copies:

class someclass:
  def __init__( self, otherobject):
    self.someattribute = otherobject

And my second question is, whether I should use a cast in such cases or
not (I know, a cast isn't mandatory here...)

Thanks a lot!


From cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca  Sat Aug 21 22:50:26 2004
From: cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca (David M. Cooke)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 22:50:26 -0400
Subject: speed
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408191528100.1138-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<mailman.1992.1092961376.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <qnky8k7ant9.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>

At some point, Ayose <ayose.cazorla at hispalinux.es> wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 03:37:26PM +0200, Peter Kleiweg wrote:
>> 
>> I implemented a lexer in Pylly and compared it to the version I
>> had written in Flex. Processing 219062 lines took 0.9 seconds in
>> C (from Flex), and 5 minutes 54 second in Python (from Pylly), a
>> ratio of 393 to 1.
>> 
>> Is this normal for Python, or does Flex produce better parsers
>> than Pylly? I have been looking at the code produced by Flex to
>> see if I could translate it to Python automaticly. But it has a
>> lot of goto statements, and I haven't figured out how to
>> translate those to Python efficiently.
>...
> But, IMHO, if you has to process very big files, don't do it with
> python. Instead, write a simple C-module, which uses your Flex parser
> and creates python objects with that information. It should be trivial
> if you have experience with the C API. :-)

Or have a look at FlexModule at
http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mcguire/software/fbmodule/
which makes it really simple without experience with the C API.

-- 
|>|\/|<
/--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
|David M. Cooke
|cookedm(at)physics(dot)mcmaster(dot)ca


From igorr at ifi.uio.no  Sat Aug 28 18:00:12 2004
From: igorr at ifi.uio.no (Igor V. Rafienko)
Date: 29 Aug 2004 00:00:12 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87hdqok9i6.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1rfz68ely9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<876574k7du.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1r3c28ejis.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<zILXc.54863$xi6.26091@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <xjvpt5aexeb.fsf@nelja.ifi.uio.no>

[ Paul McGuire ]

[ ... ]

> In fact, you can cite examples on this argument in either direction;


I am a bit curious, what are the arguments _against_ an explicit
end-of-block marker? Does such a marker create any problems? (I know
that it solves a couple, though).

As a side note -- my last employer had absolutely horrible coding
conventions. No one liked them (developers and management included).
However, everyone had to comply, and despite an occasional nastiness,
the bug that you illustrated could not have happened in that
environment, because _every_ if was required to have its body within
braces.

[ ... ]





ivr
-- 
My compiler compiled yours
				- Visual C++ .Net 2003 motto


From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Fri Aug 27 17:08:30 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:08:30 -0400
Subject: allowing braces around suites
In-Reply-To: <wuIXc.258478$OB3.99772@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<wuIXc.258478$OB3.99772@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <2p9lv0Fift22U1@uni-berlin.de>

Andrew Koenig wrote:
> The following code is legal today:
> 
>     def foo(x):
>         print x
>     x = 3
>     if x == 3:
>         {
>         foo(x) : 42
>         }

Gyaah, you almost gave me a heart attack there. Nicely done.


From usenet_spam at janc.invalid  Fri Aug 27 20:47:15 2004
From: usenet_spam at janc.invalid (JanC)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 00:47:15 GMT
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2536.1093624564.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Xns95531C5B7E3F3JanC@213.118.38.197>

Robert Brewer schreef:

> Anthony Baxter wrote:
>> Note that Robert has sent the completed proposal to python-dev,
>> and in fine Python tradition, buggered off for the weekend.
>> So I'm not entirely sure it's worthwhile posting more
>> for/against messages now.
> 
> I'll continue to collect them, and post updates on Monday. So feel free.

FOR

-- 
JanC

"Be strict when sending and tolerant when receiving."
RFC 1958 - Architectural Principles of the Internet - section 3.9


From jjl at pobox.com  Thu Aug 12 16:39:48 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 21:39:48 +0100
Subject: decorators vs GIL
References: <96c2e938.0408091819.2cd7b50d@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1441.1092142125.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<96c2e938.0408101428.1545fb26@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <87vffonl9n.fsf@pobox.com>

sjdevnull at yahoo.com (G. S. Hayes) writes:
[...]
> No.  I'm using alternative multiprocessing/event-driven programming
> methods that are much less error prone (ie easier to program and
> maintain) and easier to get good performance out of than using
> threads.  The core difference between threads and processes is that
> threads share all their memory while processes have protected memory. 
> That difference _should_ be the deciding factor in whether you use
> processes or threads in an application, although as I've said
> throughout this thread two major platforms (Windows{see * below} and
> Java) don't give you the tools to make that possible; thankfully,
> Python does on OSes where it's possible.
[...]

...although Java 1.4 does provide a select()-workalike -- see Alan
Kennedy's recent post on implementing socket, select and asyncore for
Jython.


John


From ben at benlast.com  Tue Aug 17 09:54:55 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:54:55 +0100
Subject: How big can a Python program be?
In-Reply-To: <lPCdnUPk-paMkb_cRVn-pg@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPMEAHCEAA.ben@benlast.com>

Hmmm... are all the resulting code objects kept forever, or are those that
are no longer required subject to garbage collection?  If so, one could keep
feeding expressions, such as x+y for random values of x & t, to the
interpreter indefinitely :)  Or, slightly more seriously, if completed code
blocks are compiled to single code objects (as is done in a shell
environment based on cmd.py) and then executed, one could keep feeding
meaningful code segments to the interpreter indefinitely, as long as each is
complete unto itself.  Of course, each can process data "left" by the
preceding ones, since they all execute within the same namespace.

b

> -----Original Message-----
> From: python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org
> [mailto:python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org]On Behalf Of
> Peter Hansen
> Sent: 17 August 2004 14:46
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Re: How big can a Python program be?
>
>
> Ben Last wrote:
> > Unless I've misremembered, the Python interpreter executes
> lines as they're
> > entered, whether read from a file or typed in (with the exception that
> > blocks of code made up of multiple lines are executed when the
> last line is
> > complete), so in theory, one could feed code to Python
> indefinitely and it'd
> > just keep going.
>
> You've misremembered.  Python actually *compiles* the code prior
> to executing it, turning it into bytecode.  That means there is
> definitely a limit on how much code can be handled, based if nothing
> else on the memory in your PC.
>
> -Peter
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



From ramen at lackingtalent.com  Fri Aug 27 12:02:08 2004
From: ramen at lackingtalent.com (Dave Benjamin)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:02:08 -0000
Subject: Alex Martelli: Welcome back!
Message-ID: <slrnciunmu.tkp.ramen@lackingtalent.com>

It's nice to see you around here again!

Dave


From adurdin at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 08:13:00 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 22:13:00 +1000
Subject: Getting the docstring of a property
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a040811051326ced3b1@mail.gmail.com>

How do you get the docstring of a property? Suppose I have the following:

class Foo:
    def _prop_get(self):
        return 1
    prop = property(_prop_get, doc="This is the docstring")

foo = Foo()
print foo.prop
print foo.prop.__doc__

This will display "1", followed by the docstring for an integer (which
is the docstring for the int() function). How can I get the property's
docstring as defined in the property() function?


From anthony_barker at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 17 13:57:58 2004
From: anthony_barker at hotmail.com (Anthony_Barker)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 10:57:58 -0700
Subject: Databases: Getting values by column name
References: <mailman.1800.1092753488.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <899f842.0408170957.13719032@posting.google.com>

what about db_rows?

>>> cursor.execute('SELECT name, category FROM zoo;')
>>> results = cursor.fetchall()
>>> results
[ ("Giraffe","mammal"), ("Dog","mammal") ]

becomes:
>>> cursor.execute('SELECT name, category FROM zoo;')
# Make a class to store the resulting rows
>>> R = IMetaRow(cursor.description)
# Build the rows from the row class and each tuple returned from the cursor
>>> results = [ R(row) for row in cursor.fetchall() ]
>>> print results[1].fields.name, results[1]['category']

Unfortunately the http://opensource.theopalgroup.com/files/db_row-0.8.zip

site seems to be down right now.

I grabbed a copy (untested) from googles cache
http://xminc.com/linux/db_rows.txt

Anthony

"Ben Last" <ben at benlast.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1800.1092753488.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> > From: python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org
> > [mailto:python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org]On Behalf Of
> > Robert Ferber
> > Anyway...
> > only use database rows as sequences, ie as arrays with numerical index.
> > This gives you loads of problems when using "select *" and also bad code
> > readability when selecting specific columns.
> > Is there a way to use them as dictionaries, ie with Index-Strings (=column
> > names) as indexes?
> The PEP describes the lowest-level database interface; usually you need to
> wrap that with some application-aware code to get exactly what you need.
> Anyway, the answer to your question is: Yes, if you're happy to write a
> little extra Python.  A cursor object, on which you've executed a SELECT, in
> a PEP249-compliant module would normally have a "description" attribute;
> this is a list of tuples, one per result column.  The first element of each
> tuple is the column name.  So:
> 
>     conn = MySQLdb.connect(...)
>     cr = conn.cursor()
>     cr.execute("select * from myTable")
> 
>     #Look up the columns and get a list of their names, in order.  This
>     #isn't necessary for the following code, it's here as an example.
>     cols = map(lambda x: x[0], cr.description))
> 
>     #Build a list of dicts, one per row, with the values stored by column
> names as keys.
>     #There are more elegant ways to do this; this is example code.
>     rows = []
>     for raw_row in cr.fetchall():
>         row = {} #start with an empty dict
>         for fieldIndex in range(len(cr.description)):
>             #Each description is a tuple with the first element
>             #being the field name.
>             row[description[fieldIndex][0]] = raw_row[fieldIndex]
>         rows.append(row)
>     cr.close()
> 
>     #Now "rows" is a sequence of dicts, one per row, with the values indexed
> by column name.
> 
> Just to be exact; the rows are returned as *tuples*, not arrays (at least in
> MySQLdb; they might be lists in other database modules).  Lists and tuples
> are not necessarily the same as arrays in other languages, depending on
> exactly how you define an array.
> Various people (including me) have also written code to return each row as
> an object that has the column values as attributes, so you can refer to them
> as myRow.Column1 rather than myRow['Column1'].  If you're interested, drop
> me an email and I'll send you a module that can do that.  It's part of the
> Quasi shell (http://quasi-shell.sourceforge.net/ - gratuitous plug) which
> has a lot of SQL handling built-in.
> 
> regards
> ben-who-spends-his-life-in-MySQLdb


From fumanchu at amor.org  Mon Aug 23 13:10:35 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:10:35 -0700
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E40@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Oliver Fromme wrote:
> Aren't decorators just functions that are applied to the
> function definition?  Then how about "apply"?  It's short
> (for those lazy typers), and it expresses exactly what
> happens.

"apply" is already a builtin.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From zanesdad at bellsouth.net  Tue Aug 31 08:14:13 2004
From: zanesdad at bellsouth.net (Jeremy Jones)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 08:14:13 -0400
Subject: xmlrpclib
In-Reply-To: <413462a1$0$5242$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>
References: <413409c3$0$22823$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>	<2hkd02-v7v.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<413462a1$0$5242$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <41346B95.2060700@bellsouth.net>

Graeme Matthew wrote:

>I was a big vague, I hope this makes more sense.
>
>I am talking about the server end.
>
>I understand that xml-rpc is a request response mechansim (i.e it runs over
>http).
>
>The client and the server will span continents i.e Australia to US, US to
>Australia.
>What I am trying to establish is if the server is asynchronous i.e
>multi-threaded i.e what happens when 2 requests hit the server at once?
>
>i.e Does it handle one request at a time?
>  
>
This is the standard/unmodified behavior of the SimpleXMLRPCServer class.

>i.e Does it start a new thread on each request?
>  
>
You have to write a little code to get it to do that.  Here is an 
example snippet:

class ThreadingXMLRPCServer(SimpleXMLRPCServer.SimpleXMLRPCServer, 
SocketServer.ThreadingTCPServer):
    """Threaded XML-RPC server."""

    def __init__(self, addr, 
requestHandler=SimpleXMLRPCServer.SimpleXMLRPCRequestHandler, 
logRequests=1):
        self.funcs = {}
        self.logRequests = logRequests
        self.instance = None
        SocketServer.ThreadingTCPServer.__init__(self, addr, requestHandler)


if __name__ == "__main__":
    #server = SimpleXMLRPCServer.SimpleXMLRPCServer(("localhost", 8000))
    server = ThreadingXMLRPCServer(("", 8000))
    server.register_instance(<insert_some_handler_class_here>())
    #server.register_introspection_functions()
    server.serve_forever()

Whenever a request comes in, it is handled by a "process_request" 
method.  The ThreadingTCPServer has overridden that method so that when 
a request comes in, it will spin off a new thread that executes a 
"process_request_thread" method.  In the above piece of code, each 
incoming request will create a new thread. 

>i.e Does it use a threading pool?
>  
>
You could implement a thread pool if you like.  Just look in the 
SimpleXMLRPCServer.py and SocketServer.py files and see what is going on 
in there, specifically in the SocketServer.py file around the 
ThreadingMixIn class.  You could mimic that, create your own threadpool 
and when a request comes into "process_request", you could just hand it 
off to the thread pool.

>I am trying to find other people who have used it successfully as most of my
>dev work is in python.
>  
>
I'm using it now on a very small scale, but it's working great for me.  
Hope this helps.

Jeremy

>Hope this helps
>
>Cheers
>
>Graeme
>
>
>
>"Roger Binns" <rogerb at rogerbinns.com> wrote in message
>news:2hkd02-v7v.ln1 at home.rogerbinns.com...
>  
>
>>Graeme Matthew wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>Just wanted to know if anyone knows if xmlrpclib is scalable i.e can
>>>handle many / asynchronous calls.
>>>      
>>>
>>You should specify what goal it is you are trying to achieve.  For example
>>it isn't clear if you are talking about the server end or the client
>>end.
>>
>>Additionally you haven't said how far apart the client and server are.
>>(Same machine? Same LAN? Same continent?)
>>
>>xmlrpc is not asynchronous.  It is a request/response model.  Each request
>>gets exactly one response.  There is no method for sending data outside
>>of that.  For example the server end can't send random event messages
>>without the client end polling for them.
>>
>>And what do you mean by handle?  Is that a speed question, a reliability
>>question, a size of data structures question?
>>
>>Lastly the current Python xmlrpc implementation, both client and
>>server end makes one network connection per request/response pair
>>and then closes it.
>>
>>Roger
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>  
>

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From zathras at thwackety.com  Tue Aug 31 06:52:55 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:52:55 +0100 (BST)
Subject: allowing braces around suites
In-Reply-To: <1rsma49ge7.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408311138420.23146-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote:

> [Michael Sparks]:
> >
> >   The solution isn't to change the language in my eyes, the solution
> >   is to produce better tools. After all, the following is legal
> >   syntax in python if you really want close markers:
> >
> >   end = None
> >   for ch in "hello":
> >      if ch == "l":
> >         print "Rhubarb"
> >      end
> >      print ch,
> >   end
>
> that's a really cool trick!

I'm glad you like it :)

I prefer your version however since it actually *does* something rather
than lulling people into a false sense of security... :) (Still not sure I
*like* either, but I prefer yours :)

>I'm not saying this is useful, but it was fun to write :-)

:)

Best Regards,


Michael.



From sharidas at zeomega.com  Fri Aug 20 00:55:44 2004
From: sharidas at zeomega.com (Satchidanand Haridas)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:25:44 +0530
Subject: inverse of izip
In-Reply-To: <d11dcfba.0408190930.6c6088c0@posting.google.com>
References: <d11dcfba.0408182144.14aad4a8@posting.google.com>	<loom.20040819T092507-31@post.gmane.org>	<41245B48.3020000@zeomega.com>	<loom.20040819T100054-648@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.1941.1092909660.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<d11dcfba.0408190930.6c6088c0@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <41258450.70108@zeomega.com>

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the explanation. I understand izip a little better now.

Regards,
Satchit



Steven Bethard wrote:

>Satchidanand Haridas <sharidas at zeomega.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1941.1092909660.5135.python-list at python.org>...
>  
>
>>Could you expand on what you mean by exhaust the iterators too early?
>>
>>The reason I ask is that the * operator is applied to 
>>((1,1),(2,2),....(9,9)). The operation of the 
>>itertools.izip(range10(),range10()) is completed before the * operation 
>>is applied. And the iter() simply converts the result of the inverse 
>>izip operation into an iterator.  I hope the above was not too 
>>confusing. :-)
>>    
>>
>
>Yeah, the difference is a little subtle here.  What we have before you
>use the * operator is an iterator that will yield (1,1) then (2,2) up
>to (9,9).  Note that we don't actually have the tuple
>((1,1),(2,2),....(9,9)) yet, just an iterator that will produce the
>same elements.  If your list is very large and you don't want to keep
>it all in memory at once, it's crucial that we have the iterator here,
>not the tuple.
>
>When you use the * operator, Python converts the iterable following
>the * into the argument list of the function.  This means that if
>you're using an iterable, it reads all of the elements of the iterable
>into memory at once.  That's why my range10 iterators printed
>"exhausted" after the * application -- all their elements had been
>read into memory.  Again, if your list is very large, this is a bad
>thing because you now have all the elements of the list in memory at
>the same time.  My other solution (well, Peter Otten's correction of
>my solution) never has the whole list in memory at the same time --
>each time enumerate generates a tuple and it's index, each of the
>iterators returned by starzip generates their appropriate items.[*]
>
>Steve
>
>[*] Of course, if you exhaust one of the iterators before the others,
>itertools.tee's implicit cache will actually store all the elements,
>so starzip would really only be efficient if you wanted to iterate
>through the sub-iterators in lockstep.  This means you'd probably want
>to itertools.izip them back together at some point, but being able to
>starzip them means you can wrap the individual iterators with extra
>functionality if necessary.
>  
>


From xtian at toysinabag.com  Tue Aug 10 19:39:47 2004
From: xtian at toysinabag.com (xtian)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 16:39:47 -0700
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar,
	but for what exactly? (decorator libraries).
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>	<mailman.1352.1091953503.5135.python-list@python.org>	<roy-0D45FB.09322108082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1467.1092158118.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <d111eafa.0408101539.530814e9@posting.google.com>

Skip Montanaro <skip at pobox.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1467.1092158118.5135.python-list at python.org>...
>
>     class martha:
>         memo = {}
> 
>         @staticmethod
>         def memoize(func):
>             if func not in martha.memo:
>                 martha.memo[func] = {}
>             def _inner(*args, **kwds):
>                 items = kwds.items()
>                 items.sort()
>                 items = tuple(items)
>                 key = (args, items)
>                 try:
>                     val = martha.memo[key]
>                 except KeyError:
>                     val = func(*args, **kwds)
>                     martha.memo[key] = val
>                 return val
>             return _inner
> 
>     @martha.memoize
>     def fib(n):
>         assert n >= 0
>         print n
>         if n <= 1:
>             return 1
>         return n + fib(n-1)
> 
>     print fib(5)
>     print fib(4)
> 
> Running that yields this output:
> 
>     5
>     4
>     3
>     2
>     1
>     15
>     10
> 
> Skip


Minor typo - I think the references to martha.memo[key] in _inner
should be to martha.memo[func][key], enabling you to prevent different
memoized functions' results from clashing when they were called with
the same parameters.

You can check this by adding another memoized function:

@martha.memoize
def fact(n):
    assert n >= 0
    print n
    if n <= 1:
        return 1
    return n * fact(n-1)

print "fact(5) = %d" % fact(5)

If you add that to the end of the file, it'll give the wrong answer
without the change.

Sorry Skip - obviously you know this, which is why you've got the
martha.memo[func] = {} line there. I just thought it was worth
pointing out in case someone put it into their toolkit and then got
bit much later on when they memoized a second function that was called
with the same arguments.

It's a nice example of a useful decorator though - the syntax is
definitely growing on me, especially in a syntax-highlighted editor
where the def is more prominent because of colouring.

Thanks,
xtian


From zathras at thwackety.com  Mon Aug 23 15:37:49 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:37:49 +0100
Subject: [PATCH] RE: J2 decorator grammar
References: <mailman.2145.1093167850.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<412889c8$0$81159$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>
	<Xns954E6899E51E1arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.29>
Message-ID: <412a4c8f$0$65908$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net>

Arien Malec wrote:

> Michael Sparks <zathras at thwackety.com> wrote in
> news:412889c8$0$81159$ed2619ec at ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net:
> 
>> So some other keyword is definitely preferable. Currently I'm swayed
>> heavily by arguments in favour of "using" [...]
> 
> "using" doesn't make the semantics clear. The naming for "decorators"
> should be influenced not only by the basic use cases (in which the
> function is annotated with metadata), but also the more edge-pushing use
> cases, like classmethod, in which the semantics of the function are
> changed.
> 
> Me, I like: "transform:"...
> 
> Arien

For the patch I'm using SpanishInquisition since it'll make changing the
keyword simpler. (Does mean I've got some odd code on my machine at the
moment though :)

I'm not going to impose anything (hence using SpanishInquisition for easy
search and replace), however personally I'm swayed by "using" right now the
most. (Ideally something like "decorate using" in a single clear word would
be good, but in all likelihood not realistic)

I agree that generally decorators transform the function, but I also note
that many suggested decorators are declarative in nature so both "declare"
and "transform" are incomplete, and potentially misleading.

There's also the argument of namespace clashes. I haven't explicitly
searched for projects with "transform" in use methods, packages, classes or 
variables, but I would be extremely surprised if I didn't find one. 

Similarly "declare" has problems since I did do a quick search and was able
to find several projects including the excellent Pyrex project that uses
that as a method. (Similarly for a bare "decorate" has a clash with
mailman)

Whilst it's acceptable to say "all new code should avoid keywords", picking
a commonly used words which clash with widely deployed code strikes me as a
bad thing *if* it can be avoided (very hard, but worth considering). The
reason I say this is given the widespread deployment and use of mailman,
breaking people's mailing list software (for example) simply because they
upgraded python is an admin overhead worth avoiding *if* possible. 

When I did some checking for "using" I was rather suprised that out of
a couple of dozen or so projects the only one I could find using it was
python itself in one method (webbrowser.get) as a single named parameter,
and I couldn't find a project using it. (I haven't checked Zope or twisted
because I didn't have those to hand, it might be useful for someone to
check these...)

I agree as a result that whilst "using" doesn't make the semantics as
clear as I'd (it offloads the semantics to the transforms/declarations
associated), it is clear that it can't stand alone, and is less potentially
misleading:

transform:
   author("Joe Bloggs")

Regarding another post I've seen by yourself I would argue that "using"
falls into the "semantically neutral" camp, which I personally view as
the best option here beyond using something much more verbose like
"decorators". That itself doesn't really work very well with a single
decorator (common case) since it just looks wrong due to being a plural.

If you can find a word that captures the relative opposites of "declare"
and "transform" in a single (short?) word I'd REALLY be interested.
(especially if it doesn't clash with lots of existing code... :-/ )

Mind you if we all decided to call decorators "sheep" this plural vs
non-plural issue would be resolved, and we'd all have something clear
to search for:

sheep:
   author("Joe Bloggs")
   Component(inboxes=["inbox","control"], outboxes=["outbox","signal"])
def myGenerator(self, max=10):
   "Hypothetical generator decorated with named ports for IPC"
   foo =0
   while foo <max:
      self.send("outbox",foo)
      foo +=1
      yield 1
   self.send("signal", ProducerFinished())
   yield 0

and

sheep: staticmethod
def rhubarb(custard):
   print "Jelly", custard

<not-entirely-serious-but-hopefully-you-see-what-I-mean>

;-)

Michael.



From jerf at jerf.org  Tue Aug 24 19:42:02 2004
From: jerf at jerf.org (Jeremy Bowers)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:42:02 GMT
Subject: python raw strings?
References: <412bc766$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.24.19.41.57.611421@jerf.org>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 22:55:37 +0000, Maurice LING wrote:
> I've tried to look up in the python documentation but 
> it just vaguely brushes through by saying that python raw strings are 
> prefixed with "r" or "R".
> 
> Can someone point me in the correct direction?

http://www.python.org/doc/2.3.4/ref/strings.html , last two paragraphs.


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 30 08:50:04 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 08:50:04 -0400
Subject: Generator expressions v/s list comprehensions
In-Reply-To: <u56Yc.247168$J06.136450@pd7tw2no>
References: <mahesh-525B07.12195528082004@individual.net>
	<1gj8y77.6qshr41q531veN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<mahesh-7E265C.14093428082004@individual.net>
	<u56Yc.247168$J06.136450@pd7tw2no>
Message-ID: <8fSdnXPuTtTjv67cRVn-ug@powergate.ca>

A small correction:

Martin DeMello wrote:

> Here's a simple example
> 
> linecount = sum(1 for line in file)
> linecount = sum([1 for line in file])
> 
> The former requires an in-memory list equal to the size of the file.
       ^^^^^^
I think you meant "the latter"...

> Consigning "other than memory consumption" to a parenthetical remark
> misses its importance.

-Peter


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 17 00:04:26 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 00:04:26 -0400
Subject: Flython?
In-Reply-To: <3d06fae9.0408161928.555b1539@posting.google.com>
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
	<411cbcb1$0$3894$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>
	<W9qdnWhf8u7MI4HcRVn-ow@powergate.ca>
	<30260531.0408131856.5ef3b0d3@posting.google.com>
	<sMednfL4zqTR3b3cRVn-rA@powergate.ca>
	<2oc547F86br8U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<3d06fae9.0408161928.555b1539@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <6K-dnQw_4eFWHrzcRVn-vg@powergate.ca>

jmdeschamps wrote:

> Well, what about Ming ???
> http://www.freenet.org.nz/python/ming

Not sure... Ming appears to be in an extremely early form,
and there are suggestions it's not very stable yet (and
I think that word was used in the sense of "unreliable",
not just "changing").

The script support appears to be "C-like, with a very limited
feature set".  Doesn't even allow function calls?!  That
can't be good.

Maybe improvements are on the roadmap.  I'm not sure why
they would have chosen to go with a C-like scripting
language, however, instead of growing an ECMAScript
language piece by piece.  Or just adopting an existing
component from some other project... maybe from
spidermonkey or something.

I really don't know.  This stuff is not yet something
I know much about.

-Peter


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Fri Aug  6 09:33:25 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:33:25 -0400
Subject: PEP 263 status check
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com> <4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de>
	<10h5hgvpafm8a64@news.supernews.com> <41133C76.8040302@v.loewis.de>
	<10h6rklt3fa1690@news.supernews.com> <41137799.70808@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <10h724r20kkeqb2@news.supernews.com>


"Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote in message
news:41137799.70808 at v.loewis.de...
> John Roth wrote:
> > Or are you trying to say that the character string will
> > contain the UTF-8 encoding of these characters; that
> > is, if I do a subscript, I will get one character of the
> > multi-byte encoding?
>
> Michael is almost right: this is what happens. Except that
> what you get, I wouldn't call a "character". Instead, it
> is always a single byte - even if that byte is part of
> a multi-byte character.
>
> Unfortunately, the things that constitute a byte string
> are also called characters in the literature.
>
> To be more specific: In an UTF-8 source file, doing
>
> print "?" == "\xc3\xb6"
> print "?"[0] == "\xc3"
>
> would print two times "True", and len("?") is 2.
> OTOH, len(u"?")==1.
>
> > The point of this is that I don't think that either behavior
> > is what one would expect. It's also an open invitation
> > for someone to make an unchecked mistake! I think this
> > may be Hallvard's underlying issue in the other thread.
>
> What would you expect instead? Do you think your expectation
> is implementable?

I'd expect that the compiler would reject anything that
wasn't either in the 7-bit ascii subset, or else defined
with a hex escape.

The reason for this is simply that wanting to put characters
outside of the 7-bit ascii subset into a byte character string
isn't portable. It just pushes the need for a character set
(encoding) declaration down one level of recursion.
There's already a way of doing this: use a unicode string,
so it's not like we need two ways of doing it.

Now I will grant you that there is a need for representing
the utf-8 encoding in a character string, but do we need
to support that in the source text when it's much more
likely that it's a programming mistake?

As far as implementation goes, it should have been done
at the beginning. Prior to 2.3, there was no way of writing
a program using the utf-8 encoding (I think - I might be
wrong on that) so there were no programs out there that
put non-ascii subset characters into byte strings.

Today it's one more forward migration hurdle to jump over.
I don't think it's a particularly large one, but I don't have
any real world data at hand.

John Roth
>
> Regards,
> Martin




From geoff at variosoft.com  Sun Aug  8 09:00:32 2004
From: geoff at variosoft.com (Geoff Caplan)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 14:00:32 +0100
Subject: Encryption between Python & PHP
Message-ID: <16518147514.20040808140032@variosoft.com>

Hi folks,

I am looking for a practical way of sending encrypted strings back and
forth between a Python HTTP client on Windoze and an Apache/PHP server
on Linux. I am looking for a simple, lightweight symmetrical solution
using, say, blowfish: SSL would be a last resort as I suspect it will
cause fairly major installation issues on the client.

Encryption in PHP uses a wrapper around the mcrypt C library.

There is a wrapper for mcrypt in Python, but I am having trouble
getting it installed on Windows: I have contacted the author for help.

Meanwhile, I do have SSLcrypto installed: this is a very neat and fast
library. Is there any way for SSLcrypto on Python to talk to mcrypt on
PHP? My first attempts have been unsuccessful.

I have little crypto knowledge, and at first I though that something
like blowfish was a standard and different libraries should be
compatible. Now I suspect that internal implementation varies between
libraries and you have to encrypt/decrypt with the same library. Can
anyone enlighten me?

------------------ 
Geoff Caplan
Vario Software Ltd
(+44) 121-515 1154



From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 03:17:24 2004
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 00:17:24 -0700
Subject: Python and C, looking for a C IDE
References: <6f402501.0408240353.2a5b8a84@posting.google.com>
	<du74qmstkb3.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>
	<144d0df.0408241754.6bac1a44@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <6f402501.0408242317.57fd39f8@posting.google.com>

grv575 at hotmail.com (grv575) wrote in message news:<144d0df.0408241754.6bac1a44 at posting.google.com>...
> C IDE?  DevC++ is sweet.  It's on sourceforge.  Python IDEs --
> winpython on windows, eric3 on linux is great.  Also compile wxPython
> to get pyCrust (windows or linux).  Really good code completion/call
> tips.

Thanks.
I've never got round to trying pyCrust... must give it a go.

Regards,

Fuzzy

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html


From python at rcn.com  Thu Aug 26 01:51:46 2004
From: python at rcn.com (Raymond Hettinger)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 22:51:46 -0700
Subject: python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
References: <mailman.2274.1093330945.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<z_idnSRcLoYq1LbcRVn-jg@giganews.com>
	<mailman.2280.1093356404.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<t6GdnTYtX4VOyLbcRVn-vA@giganews.com>
	<mailman.2282.1093360693.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<87y8k35ahi.fsf@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <5d83790c.0408252151.134712ec@posting.google.com>

jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee) wrote in message news:<87y8k35ahi.fsf at pobox.com>...
> Richie Hindle <richie at entrian.com> writes:
> 
> > [Istvan]
> > > what does:
> > > 
> > >  > It is not to be used in the stdlib ever.
> > > 
> > > mean in this context?
> > 
> > As I understand it, it means that no standard library code should take
> > advantage of the fact that repeated s1 += s2 operations are fast in CPython
> > 2.4.  Instead, it should use the ''.join() idiom.
> [...]
> 
> The stdlib already *does* take advantage of the patch.
> 
> It began taking advantage of it the instant the code was committed,
> because, for example, httplib.HTTPResponse_read_chunked() uses string
> concatenation.

Yes, the standard library does benefit.  The += style is occasionally
used either out of necessity or for simplicity in some places.  For
the most part, whereever it really matters, ''.join() was always used.
 There are some places like the sre modules where the cost of building
up small lists and joining them does not pay for itself.  Also, I
believe (but haven't checked recently) that some SAX code also uses +=
because the consecutive additions take place across calls and the
string is expected to be available after each.  In some places, there
are just a small constant number of string adds that don't warrant
using less straight-forward coding for speed.

If you see a time critical section of library code that can profitably
be converted to ''.join(), then please submit a patch.  If it is not
time sensitive, resist the temptation to optimize it.

That guidance can also apply to non-library code.  The purpose of the
+= optimization was to make it less disasterous when someone forgets
to use ''.join().  Ideally, the experts will leaving their coding
styles unchanged.


Raymond


From mahesh at privacy.net  Sat Aug 28 14:19:55 2004
From: mahesh at privacy.net (Mahesh Padmanabhan)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:19:55 -0600
Subject: Generator expressions v/s list comprehensions
Message-ID: <mahesh-525B07.12195528082004@individual.net>

Hi,

When list comprehension was added to the language, I had a lot of 
trouble understanding it but now that I am familiar with it, I am not 
sure how I programmed in Python without it. 

Now I see that generator expressions have been added to the language 
with 2.4 and I question the need for it. I know that it allows for lazy 
evaluation which speeds things up for larger lists but why was it 
necessary to add it instead of improving list comprehension? 

Was there some sort of limitation that prevented list comprehension from 
taking over the functionality that generator expressions provide?

I have always liked the fact that Python has limited capabilities for 
having more than one way to do it and it seem to me that generator 
expressions break that philosophy. It is similar to how you have to use 
range or xrange depending on how large the range is.

Can someone please explain the reasoning behind it?

Thanks,
Mahesh


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Mon Aug  2 17:06:03 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:06:03 -0500
Subject: Class optimization at runtime
References: <mailman.1061.1091479321.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <j7WdnXBx-dEhMZPcRVn-hA@comcast.com>

Kind of hard to tell what you are trying to accomplish
but I'll try.  Define the class with no if/else statements.
They only get parsed once.  It is the "class instance"
creations that may get created millions of times.  They
will be inside your logical structure.

class Foo:
    def __init__(self):
        # do stuff

class Bar:
    def __init__(self):
        # do stuff

if option: x=Foo()
else:      x=Bar()

HTH,
Larry Bates


<brianc at temple.edu> wrote in message
news:mailman.1061.1091479321.5135.python-list at python.org...
> I would like to optimize my classes at run time. The question
> is where to put my "if" statement.
> -Inside __main__?
> if option:
>     class Foo:
>         def __init__:
>             #do stuff
> else:
>     class Foo:
>         def __init__:
>             #do other stuff
> -Inside class definition?
> class Foo:
>     if option:
>         def __init__:
>             #do stuff
>     else:
>         def __init__:
>             #do other stuff
> -Inside each method definition?
> class Foo:
>     def __init__:
>         if option:
>             #do stuff
>         else:
>             #do other stuff
>
> Class instances will be created millions of times and the
> method's on them called even more so whatever brings the most
> speed will be used. I fear that the more readable way to do it
> is also the slowest.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> -Brian




From me at privacy.net  Wed Aug 11 10:14:45 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Dan Sommers)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 10:14:45 -0400
Subject: Python equivalent to a C trick
References: <WR8Sc.10717$KZ2.9031@fe2.texas.rr.com> <4119327f$1@pfaff2.ethz.ch>
	<vNcSc.10767$KZ2.2593@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <m2brhhep7u.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 23:23:07 GMT,
"Paul McGuire" <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> wrote:

> You have 0.5 dollars
> You have gained 1 pound
> You increased temperature by 0 degrees
> You have -2 dollars (that is, you owe 2 dollars)

Don't forget this one:  You have -1 egg.

Regards,
Dan

-- 
Dan Sommers
<http://www.tombstonezero.net/dan/>
Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.


From dd55 at cornell.edu  Tue Aug  3 17:46:46 2004
From: dd55 at cornell.edu (Darren Dale)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 17:46:46 -0400
Subject: executing python programs as if they were on OS path (noob)
In-Reply-To: <q96dnTvq49-XmY3cRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
References: <ceoogb$7lm$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<EpOdneEAjIQgepLcRVn-sA@powergate.ca>
	<ceoq2d$8bh$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<k_2dnTdzxdPEbpLcRVn-rw@powergate.ca>
	<ceouoh$a42$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<q96dnTvq49-XmY3cRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <cep157$b39$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>

Peter Hansen wrote:

> Darren Dale wrote:
> 
>> I'm on XP.
> 
> 
> Ah, then it's easy.
> 
> If you've installed the standard distribution properly, it very likely
> is already set up so that merely typing the name of the Python script
> on the command line will search in the directories in PATH for the
> matching script, and execute it.  In other words, just stop typing
> "python" in front of the script name! :-)
> 
> And if you have the PATHEXT environment variable set up to contain
> ".py" then you won't even have to put .py on the end...
> 
> -Peter

You know, I tried that the other day, and it didnt work. I think I know 
the reason: when the DOS terminal loads, PATH is read. I didn't restart 
the terminal after changing PATH.

Thanks for your help. Its working now.


From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Aug  3 17:46:32 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 23:46:32 +0200
Subject: Class optimization at runtime
References: <mailman.1061.1091479321.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<j7WdnXBx-dEhMZPcRVn-hA@comcast.com>
	<m2hdrl2ch5.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
	<10gvtipb5t0hl44@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <cep13o$9f5$00$1@news.t-online.com>

Jeff Shannon wrote:

> Or even better:
> 
>     if option:
>         import WithOption as FooModule
>     else:
>         import WithoutOption as FooModule
> 
>     x = FooModule.Foo( )
> 
> (I twitch every time I see 'from X import *' ...)
 
That, and mixed-case module names -- and no, I'm not advertising
all-uppercase here...

Peter




From martin at v.loewis.de  Sun Aug  8 06:55:00 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 12:55:00 +0200
Subject: Compiling disutil modules on Windows
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1354.1091956725.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <13185971049.20040808082256@variosoft.com>
	<mailman.1354.1091956725.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <41160684.5010003@v.loewis.de>

Geoff Caplan wrote:
> I tried renaming the extension without the leading underscore but this
> generates an error. I am new to Python: perhaps a SWIG guru could
> explain why the underscore is required, or if not required, how it can
> be avoided?

I am not a SWIG guru, but I can explain why you cannot rename an 
extension DLL. Inside the DLL, there is an entry point function with
a name similar to the DLL name. When the DLL is renamed, the entry point
is not - but Python expects that the entry point then matches the DLL
name.

As for the SWIG issue - I believe swig also generates a Python module
example.py which you are meant to use instead.

Regards,
Martin


From mjackson at alumni.caltech.edu  Fri Aug 13 13:10:32 2004
From: mjackson at alumni.caltech.edu (Mark Jackson)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 17:10:32 GMT
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1616.1092409013.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cfism8$ln3$1@news.wrc.xerox.com>

Dave Brueck <dave at pythonapocrypha.com> writes:
> beliavsky at aol.com wrote:
> 
> > One of the most commmon reasons programmers cite for not trying Python
> > is that indentation determines the program flow -- they think its
> > weird.
> 
> Yes, that is commonly cited. From the programmer's perspective, 
> indentation implies program flow in nearly *all* modern languages. The 
> difference is that in Python the compiler believes you.
> 
> > I think programmers who actually try Python adapt quickly and
> > do not find the indentation rules to be a problem.
> 
> Yep!
> 
> > I wonder if there is a way to remove this initial barrier.
> 
> I sure hope not... if someone can't accept that there might be value in 
> it being different than what they're used to (so much so that they're 
> unwilling even to give it a try), then the indentation is only the first 
> of many things that will give them problems.
> 
> In that sense it's really useful - maybe it weeds out people who 
> wouldn't be happy in Python yet anyway <0.5 wink>.

To this end, it's worth remembering that Eric Raymond has described
indentation-based blocking as Python's /pons asinorum/:
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=3882

-- 
Mark Jackson - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
	Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it
	is the merger of state and corporate power.
				- Benito Mussolini




From cjw at sympatico.ca  Fri Aug 13 13:38:53 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:38:53 -0400
Subject: Idea for alternative use for @
In-Reply-To: <s9zk6w3m58k.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>
References: <4L4Tc.6967$nu2.3787@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<s9zk6w3m58k.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>
Message-ID: <L07Tc.29971$Mq1.1830012@news20.bellglobal.com>



Bernhard Herzog wrote:
> "Paul McGuire" <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>I thought it might be useful to include some sort of compiler directive like
>>a C++ pragma to represent this kind of compile-time meta information.  And
>>it struck me that '@' would be an excellent marker for such a statement,
>>something like:
>>@tabsize 8
> 
> 
> FWIW, that particular directive already exists.  To set the tab width to
> 4 you can do either
> 
> # :ts=4
> 
> or if you prefer emacs style:
> 
> # tab-width:4
> 
> It's an undocumented (mis-)feature of CPython, though, IIRC.
> 
>    Bernhard
> 
tabs are a pain.  The recommended approach is to replace them with spaces.

Colin W.



From pythonista at sbcglobal.net  Wed Aug 25 11:35:27 2004
From: pythonista at sbcglobal.net (Brian Almond)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 08:35:27 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <411e4639.0408250735.2fff48bd@posting.google.com>

"Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<jQHUc.1529$2L3.505 at newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? 

31 here.  I started experimenting with code when I was pretty young. 
Started out on my father's IMSAI 8080 (which moved into my room when
we got our first IBM PC :).  Python got my attention around the time
the DDJ issue came out with Guido & Larry Wall on the cover.


From bart_nessux at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 23 10:32:31 2004
From: bart_nessux at hotmail.com (Bart Nessux)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:32:31 -0400
Subject: 2 GB files
In-Reply-To: <9418be08.0408221939.7003bd3c@posting.google.com>
References: <9418be08.0408221427.182a4d30@posting.google.com>
	<prSdnX0h1KUgubTcRVn-gg@lmi.net>
	<9418be08.0408221939.7003bd3c@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgcv5v$sjq$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>

Elbert Lev wrote:
>>Elbert: you might get a positive response if you rephrased your post.
>>
>>"Our corporation needs functionality ___. We would be happy to pay a
>>contract consultant $n000 to come up with a solution that will work with a
>>future trajectory of Python releases."
>>
>>
>>David
> 
> 
> David!
> 
> I appreciated your sarcasm very much. 
> 
> I want to assure you that our corporation is perfectly able to hack
> code not worse then others can. But reading the postings, which talk
> about this issue I thought, that if this feature is "half" supported
> and is widely requested, why not to explain why it is needed.
> 
> IMHO the most attractive feature of Python is not its syntax, but the
> library and the size of distribution. In fact, straight from the box
> 8-9 MB distribution is sufficient to solve many everyday
> programming/administration problems. This is good, but can be
> improved. There are some needed pieces missing in standard
> distribution and this is one of them. By the way I (almost) do not
> care about the speed: it is reasonable right now, can be improved, by
> proper data structure/algorithm selection and if one really needs
> speed ? C is available.
> 
> I suggest start discussing additions to the library. This will improve
> the package and make it easier to administer.
> 
> 
>>Or you could pray to the OSS gods.
> 
> 
> All is about language acceptance.
> 
> In my daily programming activities there are several alternatives to
> Python, f.e. Java or .NET with their comprehensive libraries of
> classes (much richer then Python's). And what stops me from using it?
> The size of the distributive! I understand that adding too much will
> result in an increase of the size of distribution, but something has
> to be done.

Having never used Java or .NET... how do they compare in size to Python? 
I've found that the standard Python download works for me in 95% of the 
tasks in Windows (sys admin tasks). But sometimes I need Hammond's win32 
extensions, but only rarely. I've also used the pexpect module a lot... 
I wish that would be integrated into the main distro, but overall, I'm 
very pleased with the balance of bang for the buck...

Oh, I forgot, Python is free. Perhaps the developers are willing to 
provide a refund to dissatisfied users ;)


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Tue Aug 17 08:58:03 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:58:03 -0400
Subject: music resources
In-Reply-To: <CObUc.124363$J06.99175@pd7tw2no>
References: <CObUc.124363$J06.99175@pd7tw2no>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408170849390.31141-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, Elaine Jackson wrote:

> Is there such a thing as an executable language for music?

Yes.  Lilypond [http://www.lilypond.org/web/] is a music typesetting 
language that provides beautiful (i.e. much better than Finale or 
what-have-you) PDF/PS output, MIDI output, and HTML/info/what-have-you 
integration.

> Naturally the ideal thing would be if such a language were implemented
> within python, but I would be willing to learn a lesser programming
> language if I had a reasonable assurance that it had what I'm looking
> for.

Lilypond is a mix of Scheme, TeX, and its own native language.  Scheme 
certainly is not a 'lesser' language, while TeX is a very powerful macro 
language.  Though you don't need to know either of them to write Lilypond 
programs, it helps to do advanced stuff.

A short Lilypond snippet:

e8 d c d e e e r | d d d r e g g r | e d c d e e e e | d d e d c4 r |

where '|' is a barline, 8 and 4 are note lengths (which are inherited by 
subsequent notes), and r is a rest.



From kraus at hagen-partner.de  Fri Aug 27 09:02:28 2004
From: kraus at hagen-partner.de (Wolfram Kraus)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 15:02:28 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
In-Reply-To: <1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <cgnbc4$7ul$1@ork.noris.net>

Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote:
[...]
>>  Regardless of history, it looks to me like your problem could be
>>  better solved by modifying your emacs mode to consider whitespace
>>  more correctly -- AFAICT there is no reason why it should ever
>>  pick up the logging line in your example and indent it to the same
>>  level as the else: block.
> 
> 
> how can Emacs tell?  if I press TAB and thus ask Emacs to re-indent
> the line, that's what it will do.  arguably, the correct fix is to
> disable the "clever" re-indentation code of Emacs since it's too easy
> to fool it, but this makes coding more awkward in other cases.  it
> also doesn't solve cut-n-paste errors.

You can use C-c < or C-c > in Emacs to (de-)indent regions.

Wolfram


From wweexxsseessssaa at shaw.ca  Tue Aug 24 20:34:09 2004
From: wweexxsseessssaa at shaw.ca (John W. Hall)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:34:09 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<ReQWc.309030$%_6.143318@attbi_s01>
Message-ID: <ngnni05vn2pigmbcinbf204utt2f7uqagl@4ax.com>

59

Is "the age of Python programmers" anything like
"The Age of Aquarius"? (i.e. The Dawning of)

-- 
John W Hall <wweexxsseessssaa at telus.net>
Cochrane, Alberta, Canada.
"Helping People Prosper in the Information Age"


From jpmorichon at earthlink.net  Wed Aug  4 22:28:48 2004
From: jpmorichon at earthlink.net (CptPicard)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 02:28:48 GMT
Subject: Need help on how to use Pymedia!
Message-ID: <AXgQc.508$nx2.344@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>

Hi,
I am currently trying to use pymedia so to get the following informations
(author, song title, ...) from a mp3 file.
The documentation I downloaded is quite limited : It gives some clues on how
to get that information (method getInfo() from pymedia.audio.acodec).
However, it does not explain what has to be done prior to that call.
I downloaded pycar but it did not help me.

Could someone give me a more detailed documentation on pymedia or some clues
on how to get the information I need ?

Thanks for your help





From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 12:43:41 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 02:43:41 +1000
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed2040805094176814bbc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<opsb9g3hjudgjose@mail.yahoo.it>
	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051213180.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<e69d3ed2040805094176814bbc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204080509433be76442@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 02:41:10 +1000, Anthony Baxter
<anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 12:29:51 -0400, Christopher T King <squirrel at wpi.edu> wrote:
> > What does one do if a decorator raises an exception?
> 
> def deco(func):
>       raise TypeError
> 
> @deco
> def foo():
>     print "hello"

Sigh. I missed this bit of cut-n-paste:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "f.py", line 4, in ?
    @deco
  File "f.py", line 2, in deco
    raise TypeError
TypeError


From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Sat Aug 21 23:22:35 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 23:22:35 -0400
Subject: Getting benifits of database transactions in an OO way?
In-Reply-To: <7xu0uwlztw.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
References: <2oq8pmFdd2nfU1@uni-berlin.de> <7xk6vsklxm.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<2oqb54Fdj12nU1@uni-berlin.de> <7xu0uwlztw.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <2oqhlkFdi80eU1@uni-berlin.de>

Paul Rubin wrote:
> Leif K-Brooks <eurleif at ecritters.biz> writes:
> 
>>How woould begin_transaction() and finish_transaction() be
>>implemented? They couldn't be simple wrappers for PostgreSQL
>>transaction handling, since it's not very object-oriented (the whole
>>connection has one transaction at a time).
> 
> 
> Yes, if you want multiple concurrent transactions, you need separate
> connections for them.

But then multiple row classes would have to create their own 
connections, which would be bad for performance:

import people
import companies
people_transaction = people.begin_transaction()
companies_transaction = companies.begin_transaction()
microsoft = companies_transaction.find_by_name('Microsoft')
microsoft.patent_something_trivial()
bill = people_transaction.find_by_name("Bill Gates")
bill.money += 1000000
people_transaction.finish_transaction()
companies_transaction.finish_transaction()

I think I'll just require users of modules which handle data to commit 
on their own. Not ideal, but it seems to be the best possible.


From fowlertrainer at anonym.hu  Tue Aug 17 07:00:20 2004
From: fowlertrainer at anonym.hu (fowlertrainer at anonym.hu)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:00:20 +0200
Subject: os popen problems in w98
Message-ID: <4121E544.1080200@anonym.hu>

Hi !

I use this code section in my program:

    cho,chi=os.popen2(os.getcwd()+'/genlotto.py')

    genlotto=chi.read()

    genlotto=genlotto.strip()[1:-1]

This code is working on wxp, and w2000.
I use that code to load a subprogram's result.

In Win98 it is hanged, and is nothing happened.

Why ? What I do wrong ?

Thanx for help:
 FT


From tdelaney at avaya.com  Fri Aug  6 01:10:58 2004
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy))
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:10:58 +1000
Subject: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was Decorator syntax)
Message-ID: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01C8C636@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

Anthony Baxter wrote:

> The solution, if you don't like the syntax, is not voting. It's to
> propose an argument that Guido will accept, in favour of your
> preferred option. 

I see this less as a vote, and more an attempt to reach a community
consensus - or at least a large enough one to lend weight to the many
arguments that have already been presented.

I will live with pie-syntax, but I won't be overly happy with it. I
would much prefer that list-after-def be accepted.

Tim Delaney


From megalomaan at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 17 20:21:17 2004
From: megalomaan at hotmail.com (Johan)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 02:21:17 +0200
Subject: strange problem with def in class
Message-ID: <1092788477.995526@seven.kulnet.kuleuven.ac.be>

I don't get it:
I'm trying to write a "readfile" function which would replace some code from
a __init__ function:

1    import string
2    class landdict:
3        def __init__(self, file):
4                # Laadt de dictionnary van landen.
5                # Kijk in de actiefspel-file voor de file van waaruit je
moet laden.
6                self.ld = {}
7                f = open(file, "r")
8                line = f.readline()
9                if line[0] == "#":
10                    line = f.readline()
11              while line != "":
12                    key = line[0:3]
13                    self.ld[key] = string.split(line[4:], ':')
14                    line = f.readline()
15              print self.ld

So I would like to replace the code from line 7 to line 14 with

readfile(filename)

while

def readfile(filename) is another function in the class

but I can't define this function.... when I call the function the
interpreter throws an exception of unknown function
what am I doing wrong?
-- 
____________________________________________________
Johan Potums
Vaartstraat 67
3000 Leuven

johan.potums at student.kuleuven.ac.be



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.737 / Virus Database: 491 - Release Date: 11/08/2004




From finite.automaton at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 13:03:25 2004
From: finite.automaton at gmail.com (Lonnie Princehouse)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 10:03:25 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <mailman.1939.1092908938.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cg1v7q$2ut6$1@otis.netspace.net.au>
Message-ID: <4b39d922.0408190903.2293b7bd@posting.google.com>

Robbie <user at domain.invalid> wrote in message news:<cg1v7q$2ut6$1 at otis.netspace.net.au>...
> Man my english skills are bad, can Python fix those?

...working on a PEP to address this (hopefully will be implemented in Python 3.0)



lol


From joewong at mango.cc  Thu Aug 12 05:15:46 2004
From: joewong at mango.cc (Joe Wong)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:15:46 +0800
Subject: question on py2exe and DLL
Message-ID: <0d4701c4804c$f428c940$7f00a8c0@scl01.siliconcreation.com>

Hi, I have an application which is converted to binary using py2exe. How I can make a DLL (also written in python) that can be loaded by a py2exe converted application? In short, I have two .py files implement the same class and methods ( but internall, they are different ). In the script, I can simply change the import statement to use the .py file that I want but I don't know how to do it after it is py2exe packed..

Regards,

- Joe
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From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 06:21:13 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 20:21:13 +1000
Subject: Python milestone releases
In-Reply-To: <cevk81$1s2$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
References: <pan.2004.08.05.22.55.55.192128@rumblefish.org>
	<4113406D.1@v.loewis.de> <cevk81$1s2$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408060321614a2295@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 11:49:52 +0200, David Fraser <davidf at sjsoft.com> wrote:
> What may be easier in some situations is to have back-ported versions of
> new standard modules that will run with previous versions of Python.
> For example, Python 2.3 introduces the datetime module ; to require
> people to upgrade from Python 2.2 for a new module seems steep ...

That happens sometimes - for instance, spambayes includes a version
of the sets.py module for Python 2.2. But in general it's probably not 
going to happen unless someone steps forward to do it - there's very
little advantage to me, for instance, in doing this, as I don't run 2.2 on
anything. (2.3 was such a painless upgrade from 2.2 that I don't have
a problem doing this).

Note, though, that there is a pure-python version of the datetime module
(it was the original version) so you're probably in luck. Assuming, of course,
that it doesn't use any 2.3-isms.


From RexStJames at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 11:38:43 2004
From: RexStJames at gmail.com (Rex)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 08:38:43 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <98e5d78f.0408190738.23a2b53d@posting.google.com>

"Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<jQHUc.1529$2L3.505 at newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....

Well, I happen to 17 right now. I've been using Python (my first
(real) language!) for a couple years. I say 'real' because I did some
"programming" of my TI-86 graphing calculator (syntax quite similar to
BASIC) prior to that, but that hardly counts.
Funny story: I taught a 4th grader how to program in Python. He
decided he wanted to learn how to program a computer, so we sat down
over about a week on an elementary school Mac. and I taught him about
variables, strings, input/output, conditionals, and started talking
about while loops.
We had a great "guess the number the computer is thinking of..." game
going by the end. (Too high... Too low... You win!)

So, does he win the award for youngest Python programmer?


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 00:52:46 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 00:52:46 -0400
Subject: Flython
In-Reply-To: <slrnchq8lg.q3d.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
References: <slrnchq8lg.q3d.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
Message-ID: <LIqdndvJz9MDoL3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>

Dave Benjamin wrote:

> I just want to say, for the record, that if anyone can successfully build a
> Python compiler that can produce Flash bytecode, I will personally allow
> you to throw *any number of pies* in my face, in as public of a ceremony as
> you desire. Furthermore, I will match you 50/50 in the cost of the pies.

Why on earth (unless it's the liking pies thing or the really wanting
this to be done thing) would you say that?  Flash bytecode is pretty
straightforward, and Python's not magic.

In any case, if this is a serious challenge, you'd better start
identifying the constraints and minimum requirements, as I'm
rather positive that it's possible to encode at least *one*
Python statement (print) into Flash bytecode which would
execute properly...  shall I demonstrate for, say, one pie?

-Peter


From andy47 at halfcooked.com  Mon Aug  2 17:10:51 2004
From: andy47 at halfcooked.com (Andy Todd)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 22:10:51 +0100
Subject: MySQLdb select
In-Reply-To: <21064255.0408020908.41357e52@posting.google.com>
References: <lGIOc.4961$AY5.4762@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>	<ceg5ca$ftn$1@newshispeed.ch>	<9RPOc.2792$LI7.1058@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>
	<21064255.0408020908.41357e52@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cemal3$6i5$1@sea.gmane.org>

Peter Abel wrote:
> John Fabiani <jfabiani at yolo.com> wrote in message news:<9RPOc.2792$LI7.1058 at newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>...
> 
>>thanks that worked but I don't understand why.
>>cursor.execute("SELECT * FROM mytest where address = %s",string1)
>>above works but  - following your suggestion:
>>cursor.execute("SELECT * FROM mytest where address = %s" % string1)
>>above does not work.  So why did 
>> cursor.execute("SELECT * FROM mytest where clientID = %d" % numb)
>>work???????????????
>>john
>>F. GEIGER wrote:
>>
> 
> 
>>>>numb=10
>>>>"SELECT * FROM mytest where clientID = %d",numb
> 
> ('SELECT * FROM mytest where clientID = %d', 10)
> 
> The result of the above is a tuple, where the first value is a string
> and the second one is an int.
> So you call cursor.execute (..) with a two values. The first value is
> 'SELECT * FROM mytest where clientID = %d' which raises the
> exception because %d is never an int.
> What you wanted to do is to call cursor.execute (..) with one parameter,
> which is a string. So as ohers pointed out you have to use Python's
> formatting features to get the desired string:
> 
> 
>>>>"SELECT * FROM mytest where clientID = %d"  % numb
> 
> 'SELECT * FROM mytest where clientID = 10'
> 
> Even if your first example works from the point of view of SQL
> it wouldn't give you the results, you want.
> 
> 
>>>>string1='18 Tadlock Place'
>>>>"SELECT * FROM mytest where address = %s",string1
> 
> ('SELECT * FROM mytest where address = %s', '18 Tadlock Place')
> 
> That means again, your'e calling cursor.execute (..) with two parameters
> where the first one - again - is 'SELECT * FROM mytest where address = %s'
> So youre SQL-result should be empty, cause you surely don't have an adress
> with the value %s.
> 
> So formatting it the right way and adding single quotmarks araound string1
> will give you the result you want:
> 
> 
>>>>"SELECT * FROM mytest where address = '%s'" % string1
> 
> "SELECT * FROM mytest where address = '18 Tadlock Place'"
> 
> 
> Regards Peter
>  
> 
>>>"John Fabiani" ... [snip]

Peter,

Your first statement, explaining why the exception is raised, is correct.

Your second statement is false. Worse, misleading and possibly 
dangerous. In the MySQLdb driver (as I stated in my response to the 
original poster) the %s simply acts as a marker in the SQL string to 
instruct the database module to place the next parameter in that part of 
the statement, thus

 >>> cursor.execute("SELECT * FROM mytest WHERE address=%s", string1)

is a different statement to

 >>> cursor.execute("SELECT * FROM mytest WHERE address='%s'" % string1)

The first one uses database parameter passing (and will cope with *any* 
type of object - although it will probably only work with strings, 
numbers and dates) whereas the second mucks about with the string before 
it is passed to the database module.

You should always do the first. This allows the database module to 
handle type conversion, character encoding and a plethora of other nasty 
issues which you as the application programmer really, *really* don't 
want to know about.

In databases where parameter binding is properly supported (for instance 
Oracle) using the first form will also make your code more efficient 
(removing the parsing overhead if you must know).

The point to note here is that the MySQLdb database module uses %s not 
for string interpolation but for parameter passing. Other database 
modules use ? (for instance mxODBC) and others use named or numbered 
parameters (e.g. :param1 or :1).

Not that it's vitally important, but the first statement I showed above 
is more correctly written as;

 >>> cursor.execute("SELECT * FROM mytest WHERE address=%s", (string1,))

Because the second argument to the 'execute' method is a tuple of 
parameter values to be substituted in the first argument - the SQL 
statement.

Regards,
Andy
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 From the desk of Andrew J Todd esq - http://www.halfcooked.com/



From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Tue Aug 31 18:39:22 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 18:39:22 -0400
Subject: Python Usage Statistics
References: <bba535b4.0408310322.248af2b0@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <ch2umq$282$1@panix1.panix.com>

In article <bba535b4.0408310322.248af2b0 at posting.google.com>,
Anand Pillai <anandpillai at letterboxes.org> wrote:
>
>    I have been contracted by an Indian publisher to author an
>introductory text book on Python. As a part of the introductory
>chapter, I thought it would be a good idea to present a number, a
>round-about figure on the approximate *actual* usage of Python out
>there in number of developers and/or installations.

This is extremely difficult; for example, Paint Shop Pro now uses Python
as its macro language.  How PSP users have become Python programmers?  No
idea.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From ramen at lackingtalent.com  Tue Aug 17 20:36:57 2004
From: ramen at lackingtalent.com (Dave Benjamin)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 00:36:57 -0000
Subject: Flython
References: <slrnchq8lg.q3d.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
	<LIqdndvJz9MDoL3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<slrnci53hk.4hm.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
	<RZ-dnc4U_fMxCb_cRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <slrnci5a3p.4hm.ramen@lackingtalent.com>

In article <RZ-dnc4U_fMxCb_cRVn-uQ at powergate.ca>, Peter Hansen wrote:
> Dave Benjamin wrote:
>> I have been writing
>> ActionScript for two years now, and I am so sick and tired of its lack of
>> useful data structures (like sets and dictionaries), god-awful
>> error-checking (any bad message results in the "undefined" value, which
>> accpets any message and returns the "undefined" value, and so on, until your
>> error surfaces someplace completely different from where it was caused),
>> lack of exceptions, lack of any standard for modularity... I could just go
>> on and on. I'm currently maintaining a 10,000 line ActionScript program, and
>> I would be so happy to rewrite it in Python right now.
>> 
>> And Python *is* magic. =)
> 
> So Dan was right on both counts. :-)   ('''Either Dave thinks it just 
> can't be done, or he really, /really/ wants this compiler.''')

I'm sure it can be done. I just don't think *I* can do it. =) At least, I
have very little experience in writing compilers or anything like that...

> What version of the SWF format are you stuck writing to?  It
> appears that even SWF 5 supports Javascript-style "dictionaries"
> by using attributes on an object.  For example, "ActionEnumerate"
> will let you iterate over all properties on an object ala the
> Python "for k in dict".

Flash MX, which is SWF 6 I think. It is true that you can (ab)use objects as
dictionaries, but this has several unforunate consequences:

 - Keys must be strings. All objects will be toString()-ed.

 - Keys are case-insensitive (until SWF 7, I suppose).

 - Adding methods to the dictionary class.
   (to support .keys(), .values(), etc.) requires modification of the Object
   prototype, and thus the use of undocumented features (ASSetPropFlags) to
   hide these methods from "for ... in ..." loops.
   
 - There is no exception on a bad key, since there are no exceptions
   (pre MX 2004, anyway), so the only way to even get an error report is
   to use another undocumented feature, the "__resolve" method.
   
 - Implementing dictionaries as nested arrays, to get around the case
   insensitivity issue and string requirement for keys, has the most
   awful performance I've ever seen in any language.

> As for exceptions, they were added in SWF 7, so I'm guessing you're
> stuck somewhere prior to that.  Your life must really suck. ;-)

Well, I'm getting by. But there are so many times when I think "Wow...
Python really got this right". You don't realize how many ways things can go
wrong when you're spoiled by the good design decisions behind a language
like Python. I've had this feeling many times over.

> > Peter Hansen wrote:
>> Good point. I expect at least the full syntax as of Python 2.1, which means
>> list comps but no "yield" or metaclasses or any fancy stuff like that.
>> Perhaps one pie per Bagley's Shootout example, or maybe one pie per fully
>> exposed Flash API (MovieClip, LocalConnection, etc.). I'm open to
>> negotiation.
> 
> Gosh you set a high target.  Much as I like the taste of pie
> (Mmmmm... piiiiie), and that cold clammy feeling as it drips down
> inside my shirt, I don't think I'll be accepting the challenge any
> time soon.  Not, at least, until I learn a lot more about compilers
> than I currently know (hint, it involves the word "sweet" and "all").

See, I shouldn't have blown my cover. I could've at least gotten a "print"
statement out of you before I opened my big mouth.

> One thing that would help would be a little direction from
> someone in the know as to how Jython handles things that are
> simply not available in Java bytecode.  For example, as far
> as I know the main operators for basic primitive types in Java are
> implemented with different bytecode instructions, while in
> CPython things like "add" are implemented as a single bytecode
> which happens to special case integers for performance, but
> falls back to a dynamic lookup if the types being added are
> not integers.

Well, in ActionScript, and I'm guessing this applies even at the bytecode
level, things are very weakly typed. Numbers are transparently coerced to
Strings and back, all the time. There's a single "add" instruction that is
used for Numbers and Strings, performing addition, concatenation, and
coercion as necessary. At least, so it seems looking at the FLASM dump of my
program.

> That looks to me like a bit of a conundrum.  To turn the Python
> code into the appropriate Java bytecodes, wouldn't you have to
> know the types of the data during compilation (as in static
> data types)?  But Python doesn't have that (yet), so how is
> it done?  Are all "adds" sent to some library routine which
> is made available to all applications, and that routine then
> handles the Python-style dynamic add operation?

I like key lime, but not banana cream. Apple and rhubarb are good, too.

> In some ways, I think the SWF bytecode is even closer to Python
> than Java's bytecode is, but I'm pretty sure that I couldn't
> begin to imagine how one would target either of them...

I'm sure it is, since it was designed with a dynamically typed language in
mind. They're similar though; they're both stack-based, and they both
support some notion of objects at the bytecode level.

Let me know when it's ready. Thanks. ;)

Dave

-- 
 .:[ dave benjamin: ramen/[sp00] -:- spoomusic.com -:- ramenfest.com ]:.
        "talking about music is like dancing about architecture."


From anthony_barker at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 18 13:22:43 2004
From: anthony_barker at hotmail.com (Anthony_Barker)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 10:22:43 -0700
Subject: favorite python web development tool?
References: <10i4nttktcvltdd@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <899f842.0408180922.38a834e9@posting.google.com>

> given my background, webware+cheetah feels comfortingly familiar, and 
> i'm leaning toward it.  before i dive in, though, i'm wondering what you 
> experienced users think about it, compared to the other tools that are 
> out there.  eg, does the python environment have strengths that are 
> better exploited with something other than a servlet-like model?

Have a look at mod_python 3.1 - I've found performance very good. I
benchmarked it against a commercial oversized J2EE app server and for
non complex app found it faster. It includes session handling and a
basic template system. However, you can use whichever templating
language you like with it. Cheetah is nice

Also have a look at SQL Object and db_rows
http://www.sqlobject.org/

SQL object is worth checking out -SQLObject is an object-relational
mapper. It allows you to translate RDBMS table rows into Python
objects, and manipulate those objects to transparently manipulate the
database.
It allows you to use something like
>>> p = animal.new(name="Giraffe", category="mammal")
to create a new animal instead of
>>> db.execute(("INSERT into animals (name, category) values %s, %s),
"Giraffe", "mammal")

a simpler alternative - db_rows
http://opensource.theopalgroup.com/

(http://xminc.com/linux/db_rows.txt)

Anthony
http://xminc.com/linux/


From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Sat Aug 14 16:58:21 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:58:21 -0400
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1652.1092490554.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <9ADC3170-EDAF-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>
	<mailman.1652.1092490554.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2o7cipF7g74nU1@uni-berlin.de>

Paul Morrow wrote:
> <says that classmethods should be done based on argument names>
> Python was built (successfully) on the assumption that obvious 
> interpretations of the code obviate the need for declarations.  Why 
> wouldn't we continue with that mindset?

One of the principles of Python is also "explicit is better than 
implicit". Your idea, though interesting, doesn't really seem to fit in 
with that.


From evenprimes at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 12:02:30 2004
From: evenprimes at gmail.com (Chris Cioffi)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:02:30 -0400
Subject: object.*
In-Reply-To: <a1d2c9b4.0408260741.3a474bd8@posting.google.com>
References: <a1d2c9b4.0408260741.3a474bd8@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <f03f4fdf0408260902585d1ac1@mail.gmail.com>

For most objects I would think vars(object) is what you want.

The dir() built in can help with methods as well.

http://www.python.org/doc/2.3.4/lib/built-in-funcs.html

As an aside:  the Python docs are some of the best written docs
around.  Read them, love them, put a copy under your pillow.

Cheers!

Chris

On 26 Aug 2004 08:41:25 -0700, DeadWisdom <deadwisdom at wisefool.net> wrote:
> I think there should be an ability in python to write something like
> "object.*" which should return a dictionary object containing all the
> members and their values for the given object.  Maybe ".*" could be
> treated as an operator. ::shrug::
> 
> Perhaps the functionality already exists in some other syntax; if so
> please splain.
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 


-- 
Still searching for an even prime > 2!


From dave at pythonapocrypha.com  Mon Aug 16 15:34:48 2004
From: dave at pythonapocrypha.com (Dave Brueck)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:34:48 -0600
Subject: mailman mailing list program
In-Reply-To: <PPidncd3ycQ1mbzcRVn-gg@comcast.com>
References: <PPidncd3ycQ1mbzcRVn-gg@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <41210C58.7000608@pythonapocrypha.com>

Carol Carrot wrote:

> I've never seen a more complicated, verbose pile of hogwash than the
> "deliverd by mailman" mailing list program.

+1 QOTW.




From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Fri Aug 20 16:16:30 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 22:16:30 +0200
Subject: Decorator keyword options - brainstorming
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2078.1093031749.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2078.1093031749.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2on4dcFcqjcoU1@uni-berlin.de>

Michael Sparks wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Reinhold Birkenfeld wrote:
>> David Vaughan wrote:
>> > Paul McGuire wrote:
>> > I don't know - it sounds fun.  I vote:
>> >
>> > SpanishInquisition:
>> >     staticmethod
>> > def foo():
>> >     pass
>> > But seriously, there must be something literally pythonic we could
>> > propose.
>> How about
>> pythonic:
>>     staticmethod
>> def foo():
>>     pass
>>
> 
> That's never work - for IronPython you'd have to change it:
> 
> ironic:
>     staticmethod
> def foo():
>     pass

Hm, just thinking about

stackless:
    staticmethod
def foo():
    pass

Reinhold...

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From fumanchu at amor.org  Tue Aug 24 11:26:05 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:26:05 -0700
Subject: python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E50@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:50:48 -0700, Brett Cannon 
> <bac at ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> > At this point people should be hashing out which syntax 
> alternative they
> > want to present to Guido on comp.lang.python_.  No more talking on
> > python-dev, no more syntax proposals.  The community should 
> set a goal
> > date (Sept. 1 seems good) and just choose a bloody alternative.  
> 
> One point I mentioned to Brett, but that he forgot to update (bad
> summariser! no cookie for you!) is that Sept 1 is way, way, way too
> late. 2.4a3 is scheduled for September 2. I'd _hope_ that by the end
> of this week we can have the proposed alternative(s) presented to
> Guido - this gives him the weekend and the start of next week to make
> a decision.

Given the dearth of heated debate over the proposal, I expect to call
for signatories within the next 24 hours or so. I know Michael Sparks is
working on patching against CVS (instead of alpha 2), minor grammar
improvements, and such--not sure how far along that is or if he feels it
could wait for revisions after the decision is made...?


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From nhodgson at bigpond.net.au  Sun Aug  1 20:09:46 2004
From: nhodgson at bigpond.net.au (Neil Hodgson)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 00:09:46 GMT
Subject: glob.glob unicode bug or feature
References: <9418be08.0407310712.5ee65904@posting.google.com>
	<cegun0$m37$02$1@news.t-online.com>
	<w1VOc.25569$K53.18433@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
	<cei71t$iuf$05$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <eDfPc.28135$K53.14438@news-server.bigpond.net.au>

Peter Otten:
> Neil Hodgson wrote:
> ...
> >         return glob1(type(dirname)(os.curdir), basename)
> ...
> I should have tried before posting. Now you point it out it seems I've
> changed a piece of dead code. Or am I missing something ...again?

   It took quite a few examples for me to be convinced that the code is
dead. "leve" has submitted a bug and "nnorwitz" a patch to the Python bug
tracker and it works for me:

 def glob1(dirname, pattern):
     if not dirname: dirname = os.curdir
+    if isinstance(pattern, unicode): dirname = unicode(dirname)

http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1001604&group_id=5470&atid=305470

   Neil





From db3l at fitlinxx.com  Thu Aug 26 13:58:15 2004
From: db3l at fitlinxx.com (David Bolen)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 13:58:15 -0400
Subject: Best processor (i386) for Python performance?
References: <cgjsk2$le4@odah37.prod.google.com>
	<412dfb17$0$65599$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<mailman.2443.1093535390.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ur7ptixxk.fsf@fitlinxx.com>

Dave Brueck <dave at pythonapocrypha.com> writes:

> Grant Edwards wrote:
(...)
> I/O is the most common reason, so adding another processor to an I/O
> bound program can give you a good performance boost (in our lab I've
> seen easily 75% improvement over a single proc box for a program that
> was very I/O bound, but I haven't measured it to see if it's closer to
> 75% or to 100% improvement).

I don't doubt the performance gains, but I'd argue that if you are
seeing that sort of improvement, then you clearly don't have an I/O
bound program at all, but a compute bound one.  By definition, an I/O
bound program's performance is gated by the I/O operations, and not
CPU usage, so adding more CPU shouldn't really change anything.  After
all, if your program is "very I/O bound" it means it is waiting on I/O
virtually all of the time (and thus not executing any Python code
using the CPU), so where would adding CPU time gain anything?

I do think it can be tricky to determine just what case an application
falls into (and many oscillate between I/O and CPU bound modes), and
indeed a purely CPU bound Python application (if in Python code and
not a well-behaving extension module) isn't going to be helped at all.

But to see benefit from additional CPUs for a Python application, I
believe you're really looking for a multithreaded application that is
technically compute bound - certainly on a instant to instant basis if
not overall - but which performs a lot of (or at least regular) I/O
operations (or as you note, other extension calls which release the
GIL).  The good news is that I believe many applications do fall into
this category, even if from the outside they might be considered I/O
bound, if only because it doesn't take too much executing Python code
to process the I/O responses to create a CPU bottleneck at a given
instant.

(...)
> But then again very few of the projects I work on end up having CPU as
> the most scarce resource so the machines that do have multiple CPUs
> are that way because they are running oodles of other processes as
> well.

This is an excellent point since even if the only advantage to the
extra CPUs was to free up more of a single CPU for a Python
application, you'd still see a net gain for that application when
running in its real world environment.

-- David


From maxm at mxm.dk  Thu Aug 19 06:39:39 2004
From: maxm at mxm.dk (Max M)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:39:39 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <4124724C.8040001@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<4124724C.8040001@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
Message-ID: <41248398$0$218$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>

Robin Becker wrote:

> Lucas Raab wrote:
> 
>> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
>> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
>> about....
>>
> so far with a count of 74 the average is 35.72

Up that a nudge with me: 39

regards Max M


From sholden at holdenweb.com  Mon Aug 30 23:24:08 2004
From: sholden at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:24:08 -0400
Subject: Need help importing/installing reportlab module
In-Reply-To: <1ezngypknj8ju.dlg@news.individual.net>
References: <1ezngypknj8ju.dlg@news.individual.net>
Message-ID: <4133EF58.4050709@holdenweb.com>

Active8 wrote:

> I did this once and can't remember how <blush> so I read the
> reportlab user guid. It says to unzip the reportlab archive - this
> is on w2k, BTW, with Python23 - to a directory and make a file
> called reportlab.pth in the pythod dir. The only line in this file
> is supposed to be the path to the reportlib dir.
> 
When you unpack the ReportLab archive (I downloaded ReportLab_1_19.zip) 
it creates a reportlab-1_19 directory (in my case in the C:\Steve 
directory), with a reportlab subdirectory that is the package you want 
to import.

My Python is installed in C:\Python23, so I created a 
C:\Python23\reportlab.pth file which contained the single line

	C:\Steve\reportlab-1_19

Lo! "import reportlab" now works, and you should be good to go.


> Then I'm instructed to open the ... ok I'll close and reopen ... the
> python cmd line interpreter and type
> 
> import reportlab
> 
> so I get
> 
> Import Error: no module named reportlab
> 
> not too surprizing since I can't find anything named reportlab in
> the archive. I did basically the same thing to install PIL and that
> worked. I did also download rl_win32_2_3 and move those .pyd files
> to the pythod dll dir - I assume a pyd is a python dll - worked for
> PIL.
> 
I'd be rather concerned that you can't find "reportlab" in the archive. 
Basically all it contains is a "reportlab" package directory with the 
code in it.

> If anyone can help me straighten this out, I'd really apppreciate
> it.
> 
> TIA

Well if this doesn't fix it, please let me know.

regards
  Steve
[ReportLab's US rep]


From arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE  Mon Aug 23 16:23:13 2004
From: arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE (Arien Malec)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:23:13 GMT
Subject: PEP318: radical notion
References: <Xns954E72EC48C5Earienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>
	<CsmdnSKL1aVt3LfcRVn-vg@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <Xns954E889D9EA64arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.50>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in
news:CsmdnSKL1aVt3LfcRVn-vg at powergate.ca: 

> Arien Malec wrote:
> 
>> Apologies for feeding the fire, when we are rallying around a
>> consensus, but I've been concerned about the clash between syntax and
>> semantics, and I've finally reached a mini-epiphany:
>> 
>> The problem with PEP318 is that it is too powerful, and tries to do
>> too much. It is a sledgehammer for attacking three problems:
> [snip]
> 
> I believe your mini-epiphany has been reached by several other people
> in this forum and discussed at length, certainly not in exactly the
> same words but surely in a very similar form.

I haven't heard too much resolution about it. The discussion I've seen 
has been oriented mostly around syntax, partly around "this is ugly but 
Guido says it goes".

I haven't heard the "it's really not ugly, and here's why" part of this.

Arien

Arien


From roy at panix.com  Sun Aug 22 10:50:32 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 10:50:32 -0400
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
References: <mailman.2154.1093185852.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-266C0E.10503222082004@reader1.panix.com>

"Robert Brewer" <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote:

> Just to put collected wisdom in one spot for now, here's what's in my
> draft:
> 
> 
> III. Choosing a keyword
> 
> If a keyword is to be chosen over @ or other punctuation, the question
> remains, "which word should it be?" Many words have been proposed, and
> although we may recommend a small number here, it is more important that
> we establish guidelines for the selection of a keyword. The keyword: 
> 
> -Should not be used widely as an identifier in existing Python code. 
> -Should be easy to remember when writing new code. 
> -Should be easy to remember when reading existing code. 
> -Should be easy to search for, in both docs and Google. 
> -Should not be a word with a planned future. This rules out "with" and
> "as" (I should probably footnote this). 
> -In this author's opinion (back me up here, people), it should not be a
> form of the word "decorate". The term "decorate" conflicts with two
> separate concepts: both the GoF Decorator pattern (which is a runtime
> wrapper, not a compile-time one), and with our own beloved
> "decorate-sort-undecorate" pattern (aka Schwartzian or Guttman-Rosler
> Transform). 

Putting on my "Slightly Silly Party" hat, may I suggest that "pie" meets 
all of those constraints :-)


From reader at newsguy.com  Sun Aug  1 00:10:03 2004
From: reader at newsguy.com (Harry Putnam)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:10:03 -0500
Subject: (patch for Bash) try-block and exception
References: <2n27jlFsb5njU1@uni-berlin.de> <2n2bapFs3oqbU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <m3vfg3mrc4.fsf@newsguy.com>

William Park <opengeometry at yahoo.ca> writes:

>> Ref:
>>     http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/
>>     help try
>>     help raise

This link doesn't appear to lead to a `download' option..


From jbperez808 at wahoo.com  Fri Aug  6 10:01:10 2004
From: jbperez808 at wahoo.com (Jon Perez)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 22:01:10 +0800
Subject: Getting around the GIL with POSH
Message-ID: <2nhgq0Fvu3qU1@uni-berlin.de>

POSH, found at poshmodule.sourceforge.net , lets you share
Python objects across processes like you would among threads
and not have to resort to IPC mechanisms.

Because separate processes do not share the GIL, this allows
them to be scheduled on multiple CPUs.

Is anyone out there using POSH and is it reliable enough for
production use?  Any plans to incorporate it into the Python
distribution?


From vincent at visualtrans.de  Wed Aug 25 13:19:27 2004
From: vincent at visualtrans.de (vincent wehren)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:19:27 +0200
Subject: ASPN Python cookbook in a chm
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2345.1093432533.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2345.1093432533.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgihmt$7ta$1@news3.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>

dody wrote:
> ASPN Python cookbook in a .chm file
> ===================================
> 
> last updated: 25 August 2004
> 
> http://miaw.tcom.ou.edu/~dody/aspnpython.chm
> 
> --
>  dody suria wijaya
> 
> 

Very cool!

--
Vincent Wehren


From asif at go-away-spammer.com  Wed Aug 25 10:22:41 2004
From: asif at go-away-spammer.com (Player)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:22:41 +0100
Subject: Begginer question about py install
Message-ID: <cgi7bl$6m2$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>

During my setup install of python, I came across an option stating...
Compile python files to, .pyc

I left it unchecked for now, should I of done otherwise??

As I am a begginer to this, I didn't no if it was a needed option to be
checked or otherwise.

I assume by compiling the python files to pyc they would run that little bit
faster??

M.B


-- 
*************
The Imagination may be compared to Adam's dream-
he awoke and found it truth.
John Keats.
*************




From siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk  Fri Aug 13 08:46:25 2004
From: siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk (Sion Arrowsmith)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 13:46:25 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [OT] Keyboard layout, was Re: PEP318
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-439B02.10321912082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<L-C*RvUrq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
	<m3y8kjmfli.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <vRh*i4Yrq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

Michael Hudson  <mwh at python.net> wrote:
>Huh?  On *my* mac <wink> @ is shift-2 and # is option-3.

Er, sorry everyone, yes, I'm talking complete bollocks. Ignore me.

-- 
\S -- siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk -- http://www.chaos.org.uk/~sion/
  ___  |  "Frankly I have no feelings towards penguins one way or the other"
  \X/  |    -- Arthur C. Clarke
   her nu become? se bera eadward ofdun hl?ddre heafdes b?ce bump bump bump


From chris.cavalaria at free.fr  Sat Aug  7 18:49:28 2004
From: chris.cavalaria at free.fr (Christophe Cavalaria)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 00:49:28 +0200
Subject: Importance of C# (was Re: IronPython-0.6 is now available!)
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>	<ce9cp3$g39$1@bagan.srce.hr>
	<5dydnZSDZaARoZXcRVn-ug@powergate.ca>	<1n5z28erh2m3u.dlg@baczek.net.invalid>	<FvCdnVnESJR0ZpXcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.921.1091114694.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<537ea4cd.0408070757.14790cfe@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <41155c78$0$4348$626a14ce@news.free.fr>

ziller wrote:

>> After reading a tutorial on c#, I see immediately that it has all the
>> features that I disliked in Java.
>> 
>> 1) Everything is derived from "Object"
> 
> Pure OO is supposed to be an advantage.  Otherwise casting hacks have
> to be used and understood.

With real generics you don't need casting hack.

>> 3) No multiple inheritance
> 
> This has been covered to death.  MI implementation is a nightmare.
> I'm sure some design pattern would map any 'needed' MI solution to an
> equivalent one using interfaces and SI.

We have MI in Python and it works somewhat. And I'm sure SI isn't needed
anyway. There must be some design patter mapping SI in assembler or even on
a turing machine.

>> I'm not sure about 2 others:
>> 
>> 4) No serious generic programming support
> 
> It'll be there for 2.0.  And the implementation is superb (much like
> Eiffel's generics)

They aren't out yet and people are already complaining that they are too
limited. So far, despite an horrible syntax and horrible error messages the
C++ templates are still much more powerful than C# generics. And the best
thing is that the constraint system you can find on boost.org for C++
templates is more powerful than the one you have in Eiffel either :D



From ramen at lackingtalent.com  Wed Aug 18 15:20:23 2004
From: ramen at lackingtalent.com (Dave Benjamin)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:20:23 -0000
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<u_6dneootdi_yL7cRVn-jg@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <slrnci7bu9.qve.ramen@lackingtalent.com>

In article <u_6dneootdi_yL7cRVn-jg at powergate.ca>, Peter Hansen wrote:
> Lucas Raab wrote:
>> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
>> Python programmer?? 
> 
> My average age has been increasing steadily for years. :-(

LOL =)

-- 
 .:[ dave benjamin: ramen/[sp00] -:- spoomusic.com -:- ramenfest.com ]:.
        "talking about music is like dancing about architecture."


From arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE  Thu Aug 12 22:56:34 2004
From: arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE (Arien Malec)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 02:56:34 GMT
Subject: PEP 318 decorators are not Decorators
Message-ID: <Xns9543CB4CF5EDFarienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.7>

I've been following the decorator debate with some interest, and it's taken 
me a reasonably long time to understand what is meant by a decorator. One 
of the issues is that the Decorator pattern is more like a Unix pipe than 
it is what PEP 318 calls a decorator. The classic decorator is run-time, 
rather than define time, and is non-destructive to the base function. The 
PEP 318 decorator is define time and is a destructive change to the base 
function. For instance, the GoF book makes it clear that decorators may be 
added or removed without affecting the underlying class.

I personally think it's confusing to reuse the "Decorator" name for 
something that is not a classic decorator. I also agree with the many 
comments that the proposed syntax does not make it clear that what is going 
on is a destuctive transformation of the defined function.

Arien


From maxm at mxm.dk  Thu Aug 26 09:03:03 2004
From: maxm at mxm.dk (Max M)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:03:03 +0200
Subject: Proposal for removing self
In-Reply-To: <T_7Xc.61360$Fg5.2281@attbi_s53>
References: <T_7Xc.61360$Fg5.2281@attbi_s53>
Message-ID: <412ddf8d$0$275$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>

Brent W. Hughes wrote:
> When doing object-oriented stuff, it bothers me to have to type "self" so
> many times.  I propose that Python allow the programmer to optionally type
> ".variable" instead of "self.variable" to mean the same thing.  Of course,
> the interpreter would have to be more careful about detecting floats that
> begin with just a period as in ".5".  What are your thoughts?


You don't have to use self. You could simply use underscore '_'  instead.

class Person:

     def setName(_, name):
         _.name = name

     def getName(_):
         return _.name


But other Python programmers will hate you for it ;-)


If it is because you are using an attribute too many times inside a 
method, a better solution is to map it to a local variable. It also has 
the advantage of being faster.


class SoftwareProjectEstimator:

     pi = 3.14

     def guestimatePrice(self, hours, hour_price, developer_group_size):
         pi = self.pi
         guess = hours * pi
         guess *= pi * developer_group_size
         return guess * hour_price


regards Max M


From skip at pobox.com  Tue Aug 10 12:17:14 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 11:17:14 -0500
Subject: PEP-0318
In-Reply-To: <411421bf@nntp.zianet.com>
References: <41122FC2.1080608@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1251.1091764482.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4114152f@nntp.zianet.com>
	<roy-70A225.19463206082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<411421bf@nntp.zianet.com>
Message-ID: <16664.62730.686198.168622@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    >> Do people anticipate having lots of decorators for a given function?

    Mark> The way they've been talking, it would appear so. 

Most of the lots-of-decorator examples were probably designed to make a
competing decorator proposal look bad. ;-)

In reality, I think the number of functions acquiring decorators will be
fairly small unless you go whole hog for something like the
accepts()/returns() example in PEP 318 or do lots of Objective C interfacing
as Bob Ippolito expects to do.  In places where decorators will be used, I
suspect their number will typically be smaller than the number of parameters
to the decorated functions.  A quick scan of the standard library:

    find . -name '*.py' \
    | xargs cat \
    | egrep '^ *def .*\(.*\):$' \
    | sed -e 's/.*(//' -e 's/).*//' \
    | python -c 'import sys
    for l in sys.stdin:
      l = l.strip()
      if not l: print 0
      else: print len(l.split())
    ' | sort -n | uniq -c

suggests that most functions have three or fewer parameters:

    1096 0
    8072 1
    4024 2
    1696 3
     981 4
     278 5
      76 6
      57 7
       8 8
      10 9
       5 10
       1 11
       1 13

Even if you account for functions whose parameter lists span multiple lines
I doubt that distribution will change very much.

My guess is that use of decorators will be even more heavily weighted toward
0, even after a number of Python releases.

Skip


From rnd at onego.ru  Tue Aug 17 11:47:01 2004
From: rnd at onego.ru (Roman Suzi)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:47:01 +0400 (MSD)
Subject: Mind.py
In-Reply-To: <41220b22@news.victoria.tc.ca>
References: <41220b22@news.victoria.tc.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408171938090.10301@suzi.com.onego.ru>


This is non-threaded Mind in Python. I was having fun with this module
as it already was out of control at this early stage of development:

  os.execv(sys.argv[0], sys.argv) it appears must have all args as a

second arg, and I supposed that I must exclude sys.argv[0] from it.

All other modules are like this:

-><----------- Security.py

def Security(m):
    pass

-><-----------

But they are needed to have something non-trivial.

Rejuvenations are made as complete restarting the process. This is
in case Mind changed some modules by itself ;-) Or even it's main module
aLife.py ;-)

Have fun.


-><------------------------------------------------------------------

#!/usr/bin/python
# -*- mode: python -*-
# $Id:$

"""
aLife() (artificial life) is the Robot AI Mind main loop.
"""

import sys, time, os
from Security import Security
from Sensorium import Sensorium
from Emotion import Emotion
from Think import Think
from Volition import Volition
from Motorium import Motorium
from Voice import Voice

class Mind:  # Tabula rasa
    pass

rsvp = 1000

def aLife():  # ATM 27oct2002 or your ID & date.
    try:
       m = Mind()   # persistence to be added in future
       Security(m)  # For human control and operation of the AI.
       Sensorium(m) # Audition other human-robot input senses.
       Emotion(m)   # Quasi-physiological influence upon thought.
       Think(m)     # Syntax and vocabulary of natural languages.
       Volition(m)  # Contemplative selection of motor options.
       Motorium(m)  # Robotic activation of motor initiatives.
    except:
        sys.exit(0)
    rjc = int((sys.argv[1:2] or ['0'])[0])
    # If the AI has not met with misadventure,
    fyi = "aLife: calling itself t = %s rejuvenations = %i" % (time.strftime("%Y.%m.%d %H:%H:%S"), rjc)
    print fyi # Display the Voice:brain "For Your Information".
    Voice(m)
    time.sleep(rsvp/1000) # End of quasi-loop time-delay of rsvp-value milliseconds.
    sys.argv[1] = str(rjc + 1)
    os.execv(sys.argv[0], sys.argv) # Call aLife again.
# End of one pass through the aLife Mind that repeats itself.

if __name__ == "__main__":
   aLife()

# End of aLife.py


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Fri Aug  6 10:20:08 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 07:20:08 -0700
Subject: Python milestone releases
References: <pan.2004.08.05.22.55.55.192128@rumblefish.org>
Message-ID: <1091802401.773312@news.commspeed.net>


"Thomas D'Tak" <outpost at rumblefish.org> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.08.05.22.55.55.192128 at rumblefish.org...
> Hi everybody!
>
> Recently, I am having more and more problems with the fact that
> my Python version is far ahead of the Python versions I have to
> write scripts for (CGI servers, LAN servers & clients etc. of
> customers, ISPs etc.). Sometimes, these Python versions reach
> back to Python 2.0.
>
> The question is now, how to handle this kind of problems?
>
> I do not want to complain here that Python is developing too
> fast; and I do not want to criticize Python's system of version
> numbers. But I want to ask for resp. suggest something like
> *official Python milestone releases*. (Please correct me if
> something like that does already exist and I am just not aware
> of it.)

Anythin thats not a Beta is an *official Python milestone release*,

Tom




From shalabh at cafepy.com  Tue Aug 10 17:04:34 2004
From: shalabh at cafepy.com (Shalabh Chaturvedi)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:04:34 -0700
Subject: remaining decorator syntax options
In-Reply-To: <d11dcfba.0408101133.4943f06b@posting.google.com>
References: <d11dcfba.0408101133.4943f06b@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfbd6k$d5v$1@sea.gmane.org>

Steven Bethard wrote:
...
> *** List notation
> 
> Assuming a pre-def, non-indented decorator, here are the remaining
> list notations:
> 
> (1)
> <indicator> dec1
> <indicator> dec2
> <indicator> dec3
> 
> (2)
> <indicator> [dec1, dec2, dec3]
> 
> (3)
> <indicator> dec1, dec2, dec3
>
> I believe that version 3 was vetoed because it makes it too hard to
> break lists of decorators across lines.  GvR's preference is
> definitely for 1, but that may be influenced by his decision for the
> indicator.  I have a feeling that how long the indicator is directly
> affects which of (1) or (2) is preferred.  Compare:
> 
> @dec1
> @dec2
> @dec3
> 
> vs.
> 
> @[dec1, dec2, dec3]
> 
> and
> 
> using dec1
> using dec2
> using dec3
> 
> vs.
> 
> using [dec1, dec2, dec3]
> 
> It seems like with a single symbol character, the non-list syntax is
> much more concise, and probably clearer.  However with a keyword
> syntax the list seems the better option.

For short single names, yes. But also compare

@staticmethod
@foo.moredecoration(a="hello",b="world")
@foo.bar.baz()
def myfunc():

vs.

using [staticmethod ,foo.moredecoration(a="hello",b="world"), foo.bar.baz()]
def myfunc():

(I find the first version clearer.)

In some usability testing I did myself, I found that having one 
decorator per line increased usability because:

1. All decorators line up at the left directly above the function name. 
When you look at a function it's immediately visible how it is decorated 
- no scanning required.

2. Moving and deleting decorators around is easy (cutting-pasting entire 
lines is easier than parts of lines).

3. Adding decorators is easy (you just have to locate the start of a 
line, not somewhere in the middle).

So I would not support multiple decorators per line.

Btw, I think your summary of the current state is good. However I feel a 
new keyword has been pretty much ruled out as well.

Since there are a number of supporters of GvR's pie-decorator syntax 
(myself being one of them), I doubt we will see anything else unless 
most of us @-supporters are swayed. So I am happy, unless we end up with 
the flagstaff syntax:

|staticmethod
|foo.moredecoration(a="hello",b="world")
|foo.bar.baz()
def myfunc():
     pass

In which case I am happier :)

Cheers,
Shalabh



From shannon at news.widomaker.com  Tue Aug 31 12:03:43 2004
From: shannon at news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 12:03:43 -0400
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4dyXc.25792$Ot3.22106@twister.nyc.rr.com>
	<878yc0ucyl.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<cgnr8l$egb$1@nntp.webmaster.com>
	<87hdqorqd9.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>
Message-ID: <vg72hc.89m.ln@escape.goid.lan>

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.folklore.computers.]

> I'd expect to get these complaints indeed from people who drove it,
> but I'd be puzzled if they'd continued to drive it every day.

Um... maybe it's paid for?

I use things daily that I hate... I can't afford to replace them.

Maybe if the people had no *plans* to replace the Explorer, or they
turned around and bought yet another one, I could see your point.


-- 
shannon "AT" widomaker.com -- [There is a limit to how stupid people really
are -- just as there's a limit to the amount of hydrogen in the Universe. 
There's a lot, but there's a limit.  -- Dave C. Barber on a.f.c.  ]


From pwilkinson at videotron.ca  Wed Aug 18 10:28:28 2004
From: pwilkinson at videotron.ca (Peter Wilkinson)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 10:28:28 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040818102735.01b3c268@pop.videotron.ca>

32 here ..... but my wife is 25 ;-) my effective age is 25.

Peter


At 08:20 AM 8/18/2004, Lucas Raab wrote:
>One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
>Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
>about....
>
>
>--
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Fri Aug  6 03:06:33 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 06 Aug 2004 09:06:33 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no> <4112AC7B.1060508@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040806egka@bombur.uio.no>

Martin v. L?wis wrote:
>Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
>> Now that the '-*- coding: <charset> -*-' feature has arrived,
>> I'd like to see an addition:
>> 
>>   # -*- str7bit:True -*-
>> 
>>   After the source file has been converted to Unicode, cause a parse
>>   error if a non-u'' string contains a non-7bit source character.
>> 
>> It can be used to ensure that the source file doesn't contain national
>> characters that the program will treat as characters in the current
>> locale's character set instead of in the source file's character set.
> 
> I doubt this helps as much as you'd like. You will need to change every
> source file with that annotation.

perl -i.bak -pe '
    /\bstr7bit\b/ or
    s/^(\s*#.*?-\*-.*?coding[=:]\s*[\w.-]+)(?=[;\s])/$1;str7bit:True/
' `find . -name '*.py' | xargs grep -l 'coding[=:]'`

> While you are at it, you could just
> as well check every source file directly.

True at first pass, but if Python catches it, a file will stay
clean once it has been cleaned up and marked as str7bit.  That's
particularly useful when several people are working on the source.

A fix to your objection would be to instead warn about the
offending strings _unless_ the file is marked with str7bit:False,
but I figure that's a bit too drastic for the time being:-)

> So if anything, I think this should be a global option.

-W::str7bitWarning?

Come to think of it, that would also make it possible for a Python
program to reject add-ons (modules, execfile etc) which contain
unmarked 8-bit strings.

> Or, better yet,
> external checkers like pychecker could check for that.

Well, I don't think that's better, but if it's rejected for Python
that'll be my next stop.

-- 
Hallvard


From cjw at sympatico.ca  Tue Aug 24 14:25:38 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:25:38 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2286.1093364988.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2286.1093364988.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <uKLWc.19659$DG.741449@news20.bellglobal.com>

Paul Morrow wrote:

> ...that they warrant an entirely new syntax?  It seems that they are 
> very similar in a very significant way --- they alter the default 
> behavior of something.  IMO, it's not a stretch to say that they 
> 'parallel' metaclasses; that they are to functions/methods what 
> metaclasses are to classes.  So why don't they share a similar syntax?
> 
>    class Foo:
>       """ This is the docstring for class Foo. """
>       __metaclass__ = M
>       # body of class goes here
> 
> 
>    def baz():
>       """ This is the docstring for function baz. """
>       __features__ = synchronized, memoized
>       # body of function goes here.
> 
> 
> I personally find the above baz function aesthetically appealing.  Does 
> anyone else feel this way?  For contrast, below is the same function 
> written in the proposed A1 and J2 [*] syntaxes (respectively).
> 
> 
>    @synchronized
>    @memoized
>    @doc(""" This is the docstring for function baz. """)
>    def baz():
>       # body of function goes here.
> 
> 
>    decorate:
>       """ This is the docstring for function baz. """
>       synchronized
>       memoized
>    def baz():
>       # body of function goes here.
> 
> 
> * if J2 is accepted, the name 'decorate' may be replaced with some other 
> keyword, but I believe that the structure of the syntax would stay the 
> same.
> 
> Paul
> 
Robert Brewer provided an excellent review of the options now on the 
table, but he didn't explore the question of whether there is an 
existing structure on which these new operations, which are mainly 
transformations, can be based.
           http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html

There seems to be an artificial deadline which is motivating the push to 
implement something, even though the effect can already be achieved, in 
a less desirable way, by placing the transformer aka decorator after the 
function body.

I like the general thrust of this proposal - let's use existing 
structures if this is possible.  The idea of putting the modifier 
__features__ after the thing named and given a signature also makes sense.

Colin W.



From mov_21h at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 09:06:45 2004
From: mov_21h at yahoo.com (Bigbowser)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 06:06:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: sub-shell errors
Message-ID: <20040820130645.20380.qmail@web50004.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi all,

I'm trying to create a sub shell environment ( i
haven't really got a reason, its more of a test,
although hopefully it will make life easier ;P )
but whenever i try to call the commands  i've created
i get :
[ ice being the sub-shells name ] 

ICE> help
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "./console.py", line 27, in ?
    for cmd, callback in cmds:
ValueError: too many values to unpack

the code that is supposed to parse out the commands :
( all the commands are in a seperate file called
commands.py, just for ease of maintance and
readability )
---begin----
import commands

userInput = str()

while(1):
	
	userInput == raw_input('ICE> ')
	cmds = { 'help' : commands.displayHelp, 'version' :
commands.displayVersion,
	'authors' : commands.displayAuthors, 'exit' :
commands.exitIce}
		
	for cmd, callback in cmds:
		if userInput == cmd:
			callback()

-----end------

I've tried several methods of going around this error,
but none seem to work, the only other way i could do
it is with a big series of if and elif statments ..
but i don't reall want to for maintanance reasons ..
:P 

if i print cmds ( the array that holds the commands )
:

{'version': <function displayVersion at 0x403db17c>,
'exit': <function exitIce at 0x403dbc6c>, 'help':
<function displayHelp at 0x403d6f44>, 'authors':
<function displayAuthors at 0x403dbc34>}


Thanks 
Bigbowser


		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 29 22:32:21 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 22:32:21 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <7xllfx5u18.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<e69d3ed2040 <7xllfx5u18.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <413291B5.4000601@yahoo.com>

Paul Rubin wrote:

> Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> writes:
> 
>>I believe that we should think of assignments to __xxx__ attributes as
>>not being part of the function's body, but instead part of its
>>declaration, just as we do with its docstring.
>>
>>    def circum(diameter):
>>        """This describe's foo."""
>>        __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'
>>        __version__ = '0.1'
> 
> 
> That's fundamentally a pretty good idea, but conflicts with how we
> currently use __xxx__ attributes:
> 
>    def fcn(self, x, y, r):
>       ...
> 
>     class circle(shape):
>        __init__ = fcn
> 
> should work about the same way as
>  
>     class circle(shape):
>        def __init__(self, x, y, r):
>           ...                   # same function as fcn above

I'm not seeing the conflict.  Would you please say a few more words 
about that?

Just so that I'm clear on what I'm saying, I believe that all assignment 
to __xxx__ variables (including assignments to __init__) should be 
executed at object 'defininition time' (i.e. when an object is defined), 
within the context (namespace) of the object being defined.

So in your example [*], the '__init__ = fcn' statement would be executed 
when the interpreter processes the definition of your circle class (when 
it executes the class statement).  When it is finished, circle.__init__ 
would be bound to your fcn function.

Paul

[*] If I'm reading it right --- in my newsreader, the class statement 
appears inside of the def fcn, but I'm assuming that wasn't your intention.



From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug 20 12:10:53 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:10:53 -0400
Subject: Decorator keyword options - brainstorming
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2057.1093014715.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2057.1093014715.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <gYednRYEE5WJv7vcRVn-gg@powergate.ca>

David Vaughan wrote:

> The guys at python-dev won't be expecting that one :)
> But seriously, there must be something literally pythonic we could
> propose.

I believe that would be any of the options involving a
simple sequence of callables, which would be applied in order
from start to finish (just as any Python programmer would
expect).  This was shot down for various reasons pretty early
on, whether in the "list-after-def" form or the others.

I think the "decorate:" option (with alternative keyword if
there's a better) is the second most Pythonic shown to date...

Most of the others are far too convoluted, or use such an
uncommon (to Python) style of syntax, that the term "Pythonic"
cannot yet be applied to them... but maybe after it's in the
language the definition of the term will change. ;-)

-Peter


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 09:16:59 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:16:59 -0400
Subject: Why does this (very simple piece of) code does not work?
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.16.13.03.51.421000@hotmail.com>
References: <pan.2004.08.16.13.03.51.421000@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <PoGdnQgYz95TLr3cRVn-hg@powergate.ca>

jblazi wrote:

> import os
> 
> L = os.listdir('.')
> 
> for x in L:
>     print '!'+x+'!'+x[0]
>     if x != 'rename.py':
>        y = 'Kapustin (Hamelin): '+x
>        os.rename(x,y)
> 
> I get
> 
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<stdin>", line 9, in ?
> OSError: [Errno 22] Invalid argument

You didn't specify your OS, version of Python, etc,
but perhaps we can guess why it doesn't work anyway.

Have you tried executing the equivalent command manually,
either from the command line or from, say, Explorer (assuming
you're on Windows)?  Can you rename any file to contain
parentheses and colons on your OS?  If not, there's
your answer.

-Peter


From jepler at unpythonic.net  Sun Aug  1 22:08:34 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 21:08:34 -0500
Subject: Need Help Differentiating Bad Commands From Incomplete Commands
In-Reply-To: <12e41195.0407300454.6561aa71@posting.google.com>
References: <12e41195.0407300454.6561aa71@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <20040802020834.GA22603@unpythonic.net>

You may want to look at the codeop module
[http://docs.python.org/lib/module-codeop.html]

>>> from codeop import compile_command
>>> compile_command("a = 3")                      # Complete code
<code object ? at 0xf7054920, file "<input>", line 1>
>>> print compile_command("for x in range(10):")  # incomplete code
None
>>> print compile_command("fer x in ronge(10):")  # syntax error
Traceback (most recent call last):
[...]
  File "<input>", line 1
    fer x in ronge(10):
        ^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax

Note that this can detect invalid syntax ("fer" instead of "for") but
not undefined names (ronge instead of range)---that will only happen
when the code is executed, and range isn't found in anywhere.


Jeff
PS _PyParser_Grammar is an internal symbol, so whoever wrote that FAQ
should be given 20 lashes with a short piece of string
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From noone at here.com  Sun Aug 15 00:57:06 2004
From: noone at here.com (Calvin)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 05:57:06 +0100
Subject: Python secure?
Message-ID: <cfmqdj$e2n$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>

Hi All,

Could someone tell me just how secure Python is if compiled to an exe? Is it
more or less secure than using some other language?

Thanks




From jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl  Wed Aug 18 15:44:06 2004
From: jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl (Jarek Zgoda)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:44:06 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Swing/Metalworks for Python
References: <41224ea4$1@news.broadpark.no> <cfvaj0$n37$01$1@news.t-online.com>
	<c5cfac8f.0408180721.6ccccfe9@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cg0bi6$obh$5@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>

Aquila Deus <aquila_deus at yahoo.co.uk> pisze:

>> > I was quite impressed by this toolkit in the latest Java SDK 1.5
>> > (not sure if it's new in this version or not). But are there any similar
>> > toolkits for Python that allows switching Look & Feel and Themes
>> > in the same way?
>> 
>> qt - free for *nixes, commercially available for windows. And the best
>> toolkit I've worked with.
> 
> There is a non-commercial version (3.1) that comes with a qt book.

But there's no PyQt version available for it, so for us, Python
programmers, it's really non-existent. You can still grab Qt-nc 2.3.0
from some servers, though.

-- 
Jarek Zgoda
http://jpa.berlios.de/


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 04:09:55 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:09:55 +1000
Subject: python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
In-Reply-To: <412AC928.7000603@ocf.berkeley.edu>
References: <412AC928.7000603@ocf.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040824010944647d62@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:50:48 -0700, Brett Cannon <bac at ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> At this point people should be hashing out which syntax alternative they
> want to present to Guido on comp.lang.python_.  No more talking on
> python-dev, no more syntax proposals.  The community should set a goal
> date (Sept. 1 seems good) and just choose a bloody alternative.  

One point I mentioned to Brett, but that he forgot to update (bad
summariser! no cookie for you!) is that Sept 1 is way, way, way too
late. 2.4a3 is scheduled for September 2. I'd _hope_ that by the end
of this week we can have the proposed alternative(s) presented to
Guido - this gives him the weekend and the start of next week to make
a decision.


From wweston at att.net  Sun Aug 22 11:46:59 2004
From: wweston at att.net (wes weston)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 15:46:59 GMT
Subject: Making different things equal
In-Reply-To: <cga9ha$4rl$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>
References: <cga9ha$4rl$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Td3Wc.496441$Gx4.133939@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>

M. Clift wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Back again...
> 
> This code works nicely giving a list of names with no name repeated at a
> space of 3 i.e. you won't get 'Bob','Bob' or 'Bob','Sue','Bob'.
> 
> What I'd like to do is add a condition to it which says that although the
> names are different 'Bob' and 'Mary' are equal and so it won't generate
> 'Bob', 'Rita','Mary'
> 
> I've tried various ways to do it, but with no joy. Any help appreciated.
> 
> Thanks, M
> 
> <code>
> 
> from random import *
> 
> Name_Number = xrange(int(raw_input("Choose number of Names (1-20)? ")))
> 
> state = [None,None]
> 
> nextName = {'Bob':['Rita','Sue'],\
>               'Rita':['Mary','Sue','Bob'],\
>               'Sue':['Rita','Mary','Bob'],\
>               'Mary':['Sue','Rita']}
> 
> Name_List = []
> 
> tmp = choice(('Bob','Rita','Sue','Mary))
> 
> for x in Name_Number:
>     print state
>     while tmp in state[0:2]:
>         tmp = choice(nextName[Name_List[-1]])
>     print tmp, ", ",
>     print
>     print "Name ",x+1," is ", tmp
>     Name_List.append(tmp)
>     state[x%2] = tmp
> 
>     print Name_List
> 
> <code>
> 
> 
M,
    The debugging prints are changed, a tick after Mary is
added so it will run, and a few comments are added.
'still can't figure out what you want to do.
wes





from random import *

     Name_Number = xrange(int(raw_input("Choose number of Names (1-20)? ")))

     state = [None,None]

     nextName = {'Bob':['Rita','Sue'],\
                'Rita':['Mary','Sue','Bob'],\
                'Sue':['Rita','Mary','Bob'],\
                'Mary':['Sue','Rita']}

     Name_List = []

     tmp = choice(('Bob','Rita','Sue','Mary')) #after Mary ' missing

     for x in Name_Number:
         print 'state',state
         print 'tmp1',tmp
         while tmp in state[0:2]: #or for x in range(2):
             tmp = choice(nextName[Name_List[-1]])
             print 'tmp2',tmp
         print "Name ",x+1," is ", tmp
         Name_List.append(tmp)
         state[x%2] = tmp

         print 'Name_List',Name_List



From natunika at gmx.de  Tue Aug 17 06:15:19 2004
From: natunika at gmx.de (Silke)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 03:15:19 -0700
Subject: serial and threads
Message-ID: <39ba6e78.0408170215.59f5bfc0@posting.google.com>

Hi all!

I'm trying to write a program in python using the modules
'serialwin32' and 'thread' to create one thread that writes to a
serial port and another one that reads from it at 'the same time'. My
definitions are

def NetworkToSerial(input):
        s.write(binascii.unhexlify(input))        
        print "SENT: %s" % input                  

def SerialToNetwork():
                result = s.read(1)
                print "RECEIVED:"
                print binascii.hexlify(result) 

and I call them with

thread.start_new_thread(NetworkToSerial, (command,))             
thread.start_new_thread(SerialToNetwork, ())

The first one seems to run fine, but for the second one I get the
error message 'ClearCommError', 'the handle is invalid'.

Does anyone have a clue whether maybe serialwin32 is not
thread-compatible?

Thanks for your help in advance!

Silke


From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Sat Aug 21 21:31:22 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:31:22 -0400
Subject: Getting benifits of database transactions in an OO way?
In-Reply-To: <7xk6vsklxm.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
References: <2oq8pmFdd2nfU1@uni-berlin.de> <7xk6vsklxm.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <2oqb54Fdj12nU1@uni-berlin.de>

Paul Rubin wrote:
> Leif K-Brooks <eurleif at ecritters.biz> writes:
>>Right now, the Person.save_data method also commits the current
>>database transaction. But that seems to remove the benifit of having a
>>database with transactions: If something dies between the call to
>>fred.save_data() and barney.save_data(), Fred's $10 will end up in a
>>black hole somewhere.
> 
> 
> You have to use transactions for that.  E.g.
> 
>     import people
>     this_transaction = people.begin_transaction()
>     fred = this_transaction.find_by_name('Fred Flintstone')
>     barney = this_transaction.find_by_name('Barney Rubble')
>     fred.money -= 10
>     barney.money += 10
>     this_transaction.finish_transaction()

How woould begin_transaction() and finish_transaction() be implemented? 
They couldn't be simple wrappers for PostgreSQL transaction handling, 
since it's not very object-oriented (the whole connection has one 
transaction at a time).


From fred at acme.com  Mon Aug  9 19:29:01 2004
From: fred at acme.com (Fred)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 01:29:01 +0200
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
	<cf8trp$lnp$1@nic.grnet.gr>
Message-ID: <a22gh0dsb94ffqqjqhb3igufi65ap7pg4d@4ax.com>

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 01:31:52 +0300, Nikos Kouremenos <nk at ebox.gr>
wrote:
>this is because of the way wxWidgets. If you can't get used to it, then 
>you can always try PyQT (which I believe you will find more close to 
>your designer needs)

No problem. I just didn't know most of the GUI tools for Python use
cross-platform widget sets like wxWidgets, so expected to just start
playing without having to learn about this additional layer.

Thx
Fred.


From cemerick at snowtide.com  Sun Aug 15 21:27:27 2004
From: cemerick at snowtide.com (Chas Emerick)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:27:27 -0400
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <20040815155532.9C77F1E400B@bag.python.org>
References: <20040815155532.9C77F1E400B@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <6F7215C0-EF23-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>


On Aug 15, 2004, at 11:55 AM, Paul Morrow wrote:

>> Ouch.  Sorry, the arguments going into a function shouldn't have 
>> **anything** to do with the nature of that function.  Overloading 
>> their existence, lack thereof, or their names as a way of describing 
>> the function they are hung off of seems like a horrible way to go.  
>> (Not to mention the fact that, at least conceptually, it is also 
>> violating that action-at-a-distance guideline...)
>
> That reminds me of how I once thought about using indentation as a 
> means of denoting code blocks.  How idiotic I thought that was.  Now I 
> realize the elegance, beauty, 'genius' in that.
>
> Because of the conventions widely used (in Python) today, the name of 
> a method's first formal parameter *does* indicate the type of method.  
> If you use 'self' as the name of your first parameter, the majority of 
> us will assume that that this is an instance method.  If you don't use 
> 'self', we will assume that it is not an instance method (unless you 
> use 'this', and we happen to be familiar with languages where that 
> stands for the instance at hand, but then that is not the recommended 
> practice).  So you see, when you write a method, you are telling us 
> something about it's type (or what type it isn't).  You are 
> overloading the semantics of the first parameter.
>
> Why don't we all just acknowledge that we are doing this?  Why don't 
> we all just admit that a well written instance method uses 'self' as 
> its first argument.  And well written static or class methods (as well 
> as plain ol' functions) don't use 'self'.
>
> If we strive for well written (clear) code, we follow these 
> conventions.  These conventions convey meaning as to the type of 
> method.  Therefore, explicitly stating the type of method is both 
> superfluous and a potential source of confusion.
>
> I believe that the problem many of us have with ideas like this is 
> that no other even semi-popular languages do this.  But does that make 
> it wrong?  Is our use of indentation wrong?

I think you have the direction of causation reversed here.  Python 
programmers don't use 'self' as the first argument to indicate an 
instance method, they/we (again, I worry how much cred I have as a 
python programmer yet :-) use 'self' *because* a method is an instance 
method.  I know you'd like the reverse to become a 
standard/convention...that's a respectable position, but not a 
particularly practical one since a soon-to-be-standard method for 
defining a function's type is on its way that just happens to be 
generalized enough to be useful in tons of other contexts.

I think the source of my gut reaction to the proposal you've advanced 
(aside from the conceptual action-at-a-distance violation that I 
already cited) is my past experience with Hungarian notation, where the 
name of a variable indicates its type.  The comparison isn't totally 
clean cut because of the special peculiarities of Hn, but I think the 
folly that it represents is a clear warning to stay away from taking 
type information based on naming conventions.

I won't discuss the virtues or drawbacks of whitespace-as-structure, 
since that's been hacked to death 1433 times already.  However, I will 
say that python's usage of whitespace kept me away from seriously 
trying it for almost a year.  Now, that's absolutely my fault, and 
isn't representative of the technical ability of python.  However, if 
continued rapid uptake of python by new users is important, I would 
suggest that using the success of whitespace-as-structure in 'the 
market' is not the greatest reference for a proposal.

- Chas Emerick



From theller at python.net  Tue Aug 24 04:40:12 2004
From: theller at python.net (Thomas Heller)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:40:12 +0200
Subject: Unpythonic Python
References: <8a638f47.0408240034.653a92ff@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <zn4lvsib.fsf@python.net>

dave at boost-consulting.com (David Abrahams) writes:

> I started having some weird problems with Python recently; they're so
> weird that I can't begin to explain them.  All I can do is describe
> the symptoms and hope someone else has a clue.  So here goes:
>
> FreeBSD 4.2, Python 2.2.2. 
>  
> I have a nightly cron job that downloads the boost cvs tarball from
> SourceForge and bunzip2s it.  For about a year everything worked with
> no problems. About a month ago the download started getting truncated
> with no error reported.

There were some problems with anonymous CVS on sourceforge, which also
affected the nightly CVS tarballs.  Can it have to do with this?
I also had problems downloading the CVS tarball for ctypes - but it
seems now repaired.

http://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=2352&group_id=1#1093021394

>   Then bunzip2 reports corruption, of course.
Maybe you don't get a bz2 file, but a HTML error message instead?

Only speculating,

Thomas


From quadric at primenet.com  Mon Aug 30 12:57:24 2004
From: quadric at primenet.com (quadric at primenet.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:57:24 -0700
Subject: Live conversation between Python and an Excel spreadsheet
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20040830094558.03973758@pop.primenet.com>

Hi,
I have an application that requires that Python initiate and mediate a live 
and iterative conversation
between an external application (in which Python is embedded) and an 
external Excel
spreadsheet.  Python will have to pass info to the spreadsheet, spreadsheet 
will make
calculations, Python will obtain results and pass back to 
application,  application will evaluate
results of spreadsheet calculations and create new set of data and 
instructions, Python will pass
new data and instructions to spreadsheet,  loop goes on 'n' times until 
convergence to solution
or no solution.  Python terminates conversation and returns control to 
application until next
'conversation'.

If I had my choice (which I don't) I would re-code the spreadsheet in 
Python, but that is not an
option in this case.

Is there anyone on the list that has done this before and has an elegant 
solution?  If so, what Python modules should I look at?  Are there any good 
Python books out there that have
examples of this?

I am experienced with Python and have some knowledge of COM objects etc....

Any help would be very much appreciated.

Thanks




From listsub at wickedgrey.com  Wed Aug 18 18:51:40 2004
From: listsub at wickedgrey.com (Eli Stevens (WG.c))
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:51:40 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4123DD7C.2050703@wickedgrey.com>

Lucas Raab wrote:

> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?

25 here, Python newbie (less than a year, I think).

I'm sad that nobody else in this thread has spoken in hushed, reverent 
tones about my gateway drug, LogoWriter.  I was 10 when my fifth grade 
math class went to the school computer lab and made the turtle crawl 
around the screen.  From there, QBasic, C++, C-because-school-made-me, 
Java-because-work-made-me, Python-to-save-me.  ;)

Handy tip: if you were anything like me, _don't_ go back and try to read 
your old code.  I had variable names like "qwer" "qwert" and "qwerty", 
alongside classics like "a", "b" and "c."

*Shudder*
Eli




From http  Sat Aug 21 12:11:18 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 09:11:18 -0700
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
References: <mailman.1850.1092826328.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<dSDVc.9181$9R.1949@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <7xbrh4zd21.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Bryan Olson <fakeaddress at nowhere.org> writes:
>  > Your arguments in favour of co-routines for servers all hold (IME) for
>  > generators as well. There is _slight_ extra obfuscation, but nowhere near
>  > the level of change required for event processing.
> 
> Ah, so it seems we agree that generators result in more obfuscation
> than co-routines, but in your experience the difference is slight.
> My experience is much different, and I was trying to illustrate why
> that is, so readers wouldn't have to rely just on my say-so.

There's another issue, which is I think Michael may be talking about a
more powerful type of generator than the kind built into normal
Python.  But I'm not sure of that.


From jeremy+plusnews at jeremysanders.net  Mon Aug 23 05:45:28 2004
From: jeremy+plusnews at jeremysanders.net (Jeremy Sanders)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:45:28 +0100
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<7x4qmv6cwo.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<slrncihlu9.av9.grante@isis.visi.com>
	<7x1xhz1173.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.23.09.45.28.816704@jeremysanders.net>

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:23:44 -0700, Paul Rubin wrote:

> Sometimes that happens.  Other times it really is too slow, and I rewrite
> it in C.  Other times Python is too bloated and I can't even consider
> using it; for example, in anything that users need to download without a
> big fuss.

Most Linux distributions include python as standard, so the users only
need to download your script (which will probably be smaller than the
equivalent C code).

Jeremy



From phil at riverbankcomputing.co.uk  Sun Aug  1 14:32:10 2004
From: phil at riverbankcomputing.co.uk (Phil Thompson)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 19:32:10 +0100
Subject: Noob question on PyQt and Qt
In-Reply-To: <5m9qg0ds0g5c0k9tbgukm965au96rud6tm@4ax.com>
References: <5m9qg0ds0g5c0k9tbgukm965au96rud6tm@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <200408011932.10858.phil@riverbankcomputing.co.uk>

On Sunday 01 August 2004 6:42 pm, dusty wrote:
> I am learning Python and Qt designer (using eric3). I'm writing an app
> using QCheckList and have succeeded in loading parent and children,
> with checkboxes, with data from a file.  I want to programmatically
> check some boxes depending on the string from the list.
>
> This is the code that I use to create the checkbox's:
>  ~~~
>   d = QCheckListItem(it, lstI[g:], QCheckListItem.CheckBox)
>   self.childlist1.append(d)
>  ~~~
> The first char in each line in 'lstI' determines if the checkbox
> should be checked or not.
> How do I change the checkbox to 'On' (checked) in Python code when the
> checkbox is created?

Use the setOn() method.

Phil


From rnd at onego.ru  Tue Aug 17 15:30:11 2004
From: rnd at onego.ru (Roman Suzi)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 23:30:11 +0400 (MSD)
Subject: Mind.py
In-Reply-To: <U9udnZ7_B_16s7_cRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
References: <41220b22@news.victoria.tc.ca>
	<mailman.1810.1092758412.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<U9udnZ7_B_16s7_cRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408172304490.5502@rnd.onego.ru>

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Peter Hansen wrote:

>Roman Suzi wrote:
>
>> rsvp = 1000
>>
>...
>>     time.sleep(rsvp/1000) # End of quasi-loop time-delay of rsvp-value milliseconds.
>
>Latent bug... someone will decide during maintenance to
>change that "rsvp" delay to, perhaps, a smaller value,
>resulting in no delay at all...

Thank you! Corrected.

New version (refactured) is available:

http://python.onego.ru/mind/__init__.py
http://python.onego.ru/mind/aLife.py
http://python.onego.ru/mind/Security.py
...

(no index yet :-(



>-Peter

Sincerely yours, Roman Suzi
-- 
rnd at onego.ru =\= My AI powered by GNU/Linux RedHat 7.3


From chris.irish at libertydistribution.com  Thu Aug 19 14:35:07 2004
From: chris.irish at libertydistribution.com (Chris Irish)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:35:07 -0700
Subject: Berkeley XML DB queries
In-Reply-To: <40F6B2CD.1000905@dan-olsen.net>
References: <40F6B2CD.1000905@dan-olsen.net>
Message-ID: <4124F2DB.8060004@libertydistribution.com>

Dan Olsen wrote:

> I have an Berkeley XML DB in my current program. I can query the 
> database and get the results. However, I'm not quite sure what data 
> type the results are saved in. I am new to Python and Berkeley XML DB. 
> I can use the results in a for statement but I want to know how many 
> elements were returned to the result. Does anyone know how to do this?
>
> Dan

what about

type(results) #to get the type
and
len(results)  #to get the length

Chris
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From gerrit.muller at embeddedsystems.nl  Fri Aug 20 04:23:16 2004
From: gerrit.muller at embeddedsystems.nl (Gerrit Muller)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:23:16 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
Message-ID: <cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl>

Roel Schroeven wrote:

> Roel Schroeven wrote:
> 
>> I spotted some errors in your list, added new entries, and made a 
>> histogram: http://roelschroeven.net/pythonages/
> 
Very cool. It might be good idea to add a date and time at the top, 
since new datapoint keep coming in?

regards Gerrit

P.S.,

a lot of people added other intersting datapoints: when they started 
programming and other languages used. I started around the age of 14, 
with HP table top machines (polish notation). Programming languages: 
Assemblers, Fortran, *Basic, *Pascal, C, Objective-C, C++. The most 
positive experiences were Sinclair QL-basic, Turbo Pascal, Objective-C 
and then a quantum leap towards Python.

-- 
Gaudi systems architecting:
<http://www.extra.research.philips.com/natlab/sysarch/>



From jmeile at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 23 05:33:20 2004
From: jmeile at hotmail.com (Josef Meile)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:33:20 +0200
Subject: 2 GB files
In-Reply-To: <9418be08.0408221427.182a4d30@posting.google.com>
References: <9418be08.0408221427.182a4d30@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <4129b7ca$1@pfaff2.ethz.ch>

Elbert Lev wrote:
> From postings to this group and other resources I understood that the
> only way to make Python programs to work correctly with files lager
> then 2 GB is building Python interpreter with some "magic spell"
> defines. For me this is ABSOLUTELY unacceptable (Not the building, but
> distributing and installing on dozens of computers in my
> organisation). Then every time we switch to a new release of Python
> this has to be repeated over and over!
It is necessary with old python versions like 2.1.3 (The one used by 
zope 2.6.x). Have you tried to install a newer version of python (ie: 
2.3.4)? I think you haven't. It already supports autodetection of large 
file support. If it fails, it means that your system doesn't support 
large files (ie: on old versions of glibc it wasn't included).

> 
> I believe, that automatic 64 bit support (large files) can and should
> be included in standard library (on platforms which support this
> feature).
It's already there.


From python473 at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 28 16:15:10 2004
From: python473 at yahoo.com (John Howard)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 13:15:10 -0700
Subject: file access in jythonc
References: <9eabe547.0408210611.d5e54f7@posting.google.com>
	<MQJVc.25394$Z14.7905@news.indigo.ie>
Message-ID: <9eabe547.0408281215.4da5ff84@posting.google.com>

Alan Kennedy <alanmk at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<MQJVc.25394$Z14.7905 at news.indigo.ie>...
> [John Howard]
> > I have the following in a jythonc program to be executed in a html
> > file.
> > 
> > f1 = open("filename","r")
> > 
> > I get message about filePermission read error. Program compiles and
> > jar file is created. Just the html code gives message.
> > 
> > Any ideas?
> 
> I am presuming that when you say "executed in a html file" you mean that 
> this code is to be embedded in a rendered html page as displayed in a 
> browser, such as mozilla or ie, which means that your code is an 
> "applet", and thus allowed to execute only in the "applet sandbox" 
> inside that browser. Which significantly restricts the access rights of 
> the applet to access system resources such as local files, for a range 
> of very good security reasons, described here
> 
> http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/applet/overview/security.html
> http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/security1.2/overview/
> 
> You can approach the problem by
> 
> 1. Digitally signing your applet or jar file.
> http://www.jguru.com/faq/view.jsp?EID=11475
> 
> 2. Configuring the your browser to permit file access to local files 
> (potentially opening a massive security hole in your browser).
> http://www.developer.com/java/ent/article.php/630621
> 
> HTH,
Yes, you are correct. I do want to execute in html page. I need read
access only for a file that is already there from another source. It's
unclear to me exactly where the filepermission code goes. In the
jython program? I looked at my ie parameters and saw no place to
change access to files. I did a search in altavista on FilePermission
and it looks like a lot of others also have questions. Can this even
be done with jythonc? It seems to me that being able to do so opens up
many, many possibilities for useful code!


From jerf at jerf.org  Sat Aug 28 16:32:21 2004
From: jerf at jerf.org (Jeremy Bowers)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 20:32:21 GMT
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<e69d3ed204082708585d615e54@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.2551.1093656430.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PNRXc.38107$v86.26916@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.28.16.32.23.783178@jerf.org>

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 02:07:43 +0000, Paul McGuire wrote:

>  And be sure that the Python community
> does not need to be educated about what "real world" code looks like.

For evidence, see the recent thread on "average Python programmer age".
While the newsgroup may not be represenatative, I am surprised to be as
much of a yung'un as I am at 25.



From Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com  Fri Aug 20 09:09:41 2004
From: Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com (Ames Andreas (MPA/DF))
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:09:41 +0200
Subject: My only complaint about Python
Message-ID: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA2D@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>

Hi,

Darren Dale wrote:

> I love the language. I love the community. My only complaint is that
> Python for Windows is built with Visual Studio.

You could look at http://www.python.org/sf/841454.  It certainly needs
work though ...


cheers,

andreas



From ville at spammers.com  Tue Aug 31 11:56:18 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 18:56:18 +0300
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4PGdnfsOfdDPi63cRVn-tA@speakeasy.net>
	<slrncj1745.t5q.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<41337FC9.8070902@hotmail.com>
	<slrncj7hhh.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<p7v7j0plcfbden593l1irfprmfkp4d3k51@4ax.com>
	<slrncj8m5n.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<%T%Yc.29567$Es2.11957889@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <du7k6vfnvx9.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "John" == John W Kennedy <jwkenne at attglobal.net> writes:

    John> Yes, and also a single-process pipe emulator.  Ever since
    John> 2.0, MS has been trying to turn MS-DOS (later, Windows) into
    John> a Unix clone.

With very little success. Notepad still only understands cr-lf line
breaks, and / as path separator still screws up most of their cmd line
programs (which think / is for command line options).

Microsoft probably thought avoiding compatibility is a good idea, and
have only lately started to have some regrets, visible as the release
& future integration of SFU. Migrating ppl from Unix probably *is*
easier when you are not doing your best to make interoperability as
painful as possible.

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 13:09:09 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 03:09:09 +1000
Subject: Class Friends
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.27.12.55.20.844417@jerf.org>
References: <20040827081556.657c3fac.a@c.d>
	<pan.2004.08.27.12.55.20.844417@jerf.org>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082710091020a3ff@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:55:28 GMT, Jeremy Bowers <jerf at jerf.org> wrote:
> (Some people would use "self.__x", to get the psuedo-private name munging
> invoked. My call is if the "security" isn't perfect there isn't much
> point, as the language is already depending on the client programmer to
> behave. I think Java can get good security but C++ is already effectively
> as permissive as Python, it just makes the hoops harder.)

Really, the double-under mangling is more about stopping a subclass
from stomping on some internal detail of the base class. In general,
though, I've found it to be a complete pain in the arse - there's been
too many times where I've been using an external library and wanted to
hook into the base class to fix something, and had to use the mangled
name.

I've considered a jihad to try and get uses of the double-under
mangling removed from the standard library. Maybe once 2.4 is out I'll
take this on.


From AntiVir at yalta.us  Mon Aug 16 05:21:41 2004
From: AntiVir at yalta.us (AntiVir at yalta.us)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:21:41 +0300
Subject: AntiVir ALERT [mail from: "Returned mail" <noreply@python.org>]
Message-ID: <200408160921.i7G9Lf7i030603@yalta.us>

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * AntiVir ALERT * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
????????? ????????? ????? ? ??????????????, ??????? ????????? ????? ??????!

???????????: "Returned mail" <noreply at python.org>
???????? ??????: Worm/Mydoom.m	

????? ?? ???? ?????????? ??????????.

? ?????????;
        ???????? ????????
 ???.: +38(0654)271828
????.: +38(0654)231094
  web: www.yaltainfo.com
email: support at yalta.us


Mail-Info:
--8<--
 From: "Returned mail" <noreply at python.org>
 To: python-list at python.org
 Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:19:57 +0300
 Subject: Returned mail: Data format error
--8<--

This version of AntiVir is licensed for private and non-commercial use.

--
AntiVir for UNIX
Copyright (C) 1994-2003 by H+BEDV Datentechnik GmbH. All rights reserved.
For more information see http://www.antivir.de/ or http://www.hbedv.com/


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Tue Aug  3 15:19:34 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:19:34 -0700
Subject: dislin interfaced with tkinter
References: <34c9b4fa.0408030743.594417f9@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1091561149.927180@news.commspeed.net>


"eesun" <eesun at free.fr> wrote in message
news:34c9b4fa.0408030743.594417f9 at posting.google.com...
> Hi,
>
> I've downloaded the dislin package for the scientific plotting. And I
> have already created the application window with Tkinter (menu,
> canvas, status bar..). I want to integrate the Dislin plotting into
> the Tkinter application. For ex: show the dislin result on the Tkinter
> Canvas. Anyone can help?
>
> thx

I haven't worked with Dislin/Tkinter but I have worked with Dislin/wxPython
and what you can do is dump the Dislin output into a string buffer.

A shade plot,

def dis_img(self,zmat,m, n, zlo, zhi):
    char = ''
    max_bytes = 0
    xray = range (n)
    yray = range (m)
    dislin.metafl ('VIRT')
    dislin.setpag ('da4l')
    #dislin.setfil (self.globdir)
    dislin.disini ()
    dislin.pagera ()
    dislin.hwfont ()
    dislin.ax3len (1400, 1400,1400)
    dislin.autres(n, m)
    dislin.shdmod ('poly', 'contur')
    dislin.graf3   (0, n, 0, n/5, 0, m, 0, m/5, zlo, zhi, zlo, (zhi-zlo)/5)
    dislin.crvmat (zmat, n, m, 1, 1)
    dislin.title  ()
    char_buff = dislin.rbfpng(max_bytes)
    max_bytes = int(char_buff[1])
    char_buff = dislin.rbfpng(max_bytes)
    char =  char_buff[0]
    #char now contains a PNG image of the output. I use Python Imaging
Library
    #and open like this
    self.Imagetest = Image.open(StringIO.StringIO(char))
    dislin.disfin ()

Tom




From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Mon Aug 23 18:06:32 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 22:06:32 GMT
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
References: <mailman.2154.1093185852.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-266C0E.10503222082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <ITtWc.15182$v86.9049@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"Roy Smith" <roy at panix.com> wrote in message
news:roy-266C0E.10503222082004 at reader1.panix.com...
> "Robert Brewer" <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote:
>
> > Just to put collected wisdom in one spot for now, here's what's in my
> > draft:
> >
> >
> > III. Choosing a keyword
> >
> > If a keyword is to be chosen over @ or other punctuation, the question
> > remains, "which word should it be?" Many words have been proposed, and
> > although we may recommend a small number here, it is more important that
> > we establish guidelines for the selection of a keyword. The keyword:
> >
> > -Should not be used widely as an identifier in existing Python code.
> > -Should be easy to remember when writing new code.
> > -Should be easy to remember when reading existing code.
> > -Should be easy to search for, in both docs and Google.
> > -Should not be a word with a planned future. This rules out "with" and
> > "as" (I should probably footnote this).
> > -In this author's opinion (back me up here, people), it should not be a
> > form of the word "decorate". The term "decorate" conflicts with two
> > separate concepts: both the GoF Decorator pattern (which is a runtime
> > wrapper, not a compile-time one), and with our own beloved
> > "decorate-sort-undecorate" pattern (aka Schwartzian or Guttman-Rosler
> > Transform).
>
> Putting on my "Slightly Silly Party" hat, may I suggest that "pie" meets
> all of those constraints :-)

... with the exception of the assumed constraint that the keyword will be a
*word*, and not some malodorous punctuation mark resembling a SNOTTY-FACED
HEAP OF PARROT DROPPINGS!!!

Oh, sorry, that was abuse...

-- Paul




From dw at botanicus.net  Mon Aug 30 15:11:51 2004
From: dw at botanicus.net (David Wilson)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 20:11:51 +0100
Subject: [IronPython] Jim Hugunin's web log.
Message-ID: <41337BF7.6000804@botanicus.net>

For anyone who is excited about IronPython and it's consequences, you 
might find Jim Hugunin's web log to be of particular interest. I didn't 
see an announcement for this anywhere so here it is:

    http://blogs.msdn.com/hugunin/
    http://blogs.msdn.com/hugunin/Rss.aspx

Anti-trust conspiracy theories aside, if Microsoft adopts Python as a 
part of it's development toolset, the repercussions for Windows RAD and 
scripting are massive, not to mention the effects it would have on the 
average Python developer's wages and availability of work.

It would also greatly ease the need to advocate Python in places of 
employment, as a Microsoft adopted product, it couldn't be wrong(tm). 
This is perhaps the first time where I have been glad to see Microsoft 
hijack something. Even if IronPython becomes a commercial offering, I'm 
still sold.

Other random thoughts: my experiences of the Python community versus, 
eg., the perl community make me believe that Pythonistas are generally 
more accepting of commercial solutions than their open source weenie 
perl counterparts (*duck*). I'm still unsure as to whether or not this 
should be considered a Microsoft marketing strategy for making in-roads 
into the "open source scripting market".

My apologies for the poor terminology, this really isn't my department. 
Just got a feeling. :)


David.


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 11:38:27 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 01:38:27 +1000
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <y8k0y7ey.fsf@python.net>
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<y8k0y7ey.fsf@python.net>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040827083856f4add0@mail.gmail.com>

Note that Robert has sent the completed proposal to python-dev, and in
fine Python tradition, buggered off for the weekend. So I'm not
entirely sure it's worthwhile posting more for/against messages now.


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Aug 10 16:13:20 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:13:20 -0400
Subject: tool to check whether formal and actual parameters have
	similarnames
References: <cfa3hb$387@odak26.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfba91$60g$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Amir Michail" <amichail at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cfa3hb$387 at odak26.prod.google.com...
> def plot(x,y): ...
>
> plot( x1, y1 ) # ok
>
> plot( y1, x1 ) # not ok,

Reversing args reflects plot about 45 degree line, which is a quite
legitimate thing to do if that is what you want to do.  Perhaps original
coder got plot 'backwards' and editor want to reverse it without changes
name throughout code.

> but this is ok:  plot (x=y1, y=x1)

If *you* want to force yourself to jump thru hoops like this, go ahead, but
don't expect anyone else to follow ;-)

> Does this make any sense, even in a heuristic sense?

Not really.  I name things like age, weight, height, cholesteral_level with
their proper names or abbreviations thereof.  Your idea strikes me as an
interesting brainstorm that on second thought would best be left behind.

Terry J. Reedy





From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 29 13:30:49 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 13:30:49 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed20408291006ce164c4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgrecn$dgk$0$216.39.172.122@th
	<e69d3ed20408291006ce164c4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cgt3s8$2rv$1@sea.gmane.org>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 12:10:13 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>For example, in the following function def, the comments specify (what I
>>believe is) the author's intention behind each assignment.
>>
>>    def circu(diameter):
>>       """Info about circu."""        # defines circu.__doc__
>>       __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'     # defines circu.__author__
>>       __features__ = memoized        # defines circu.__features__
>>       pi = 3.14                      # local variable definition
>>       return pi * diameter
> 
> 
> Not in any Python I know of. I look at that and I think "oo, local variables". 
> 
> That you have a different belief doesn't make it right - I remain
> _extremely_ unconvinced.
> 
> Anthony

My belief doesn't make it right, that's true.  But I think that a 
preponderance of supporting evidence does.

Have you seen a significant number of cases where a function uses 
__xxx__ attributes as local variables?  Have you seen any?

Can you craft a function definition that uses __xxx__ attributes as 
local variables, where the majority of experienced Pythonistas would 
agree that the double underscores are warranted?

Paul




From connellybarnes at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  4 21:42:48 2004
From: connellybarnes at yahoo.com (C. Barnes)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 18:42:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Decorator syntax
Message-ID: <20040805014249.45692.qmail@web14526.mail.yahoo.com>


I vote for

def f(): [synchronized, classmethod]
  (body of function)

This is backwards compatible (Python <= 2.3 raise
SyntaxError), and looks much nicer than @.

The only problem is that you can't one-line a
decorated function.  You can't do that with
the @ notation either, so it's not a big deal.

 - Connelly



	
		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 


From coward.anonymous at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 12:27:33 2004
From: coward.anonymous at gmail.com (AC)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:27:33 -0700
Subject: PEP 322 - alternate method names
Message-ID: <358cc8180408260927997c18d@mail.gmail.com>

>From the PEP 322 page:

"This PEP has been conditionally accepted for Py2.4. The condition
means that if the function is found to be useless, it can be removed
before Py2.4b1"

Is there still hope at least for an alternative method name that is
not past tense?

flip, transpose, invert, swap... 


Introducing past tense method names seems to stray a bit with the
beauty/elegance of the language.  Maybe it's just inevitable that the
more Python grows, the less clear the signal/noise ratio becomes as
both significant but sometimes marginally advantagous features are
added.

</AC>


From b.niemann at betternet.de  Mon Aug 16 06:52:18 2004
From: b.niemann at betternet.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:52:18 +0200
Subject: sys.stdin.read() replacement
In-Reply-To: <slrnci13co.fh8.karin.lagesen@uracil.uio.no>
References: <slrnci13co.fh8.karin.lagesen@uracil.uio.no>
Message-ID: <cfq3ff$bbi$1@online.de>

Karin Lagesen wrote:

> I am writing a small write-logfile script for use on the terminal. I have here
> a section where the user should be able to type in several lines. I have solved
> it so far by using sys.stdin.read(), which makes it possible to type in several
> lines (separated by enter) and then terminate the session by typing ^D. This is
> all very good. However, with this it is only possible to edit the line you are
> in. If you spot an error further up in your text, you cannot get at it. Do any
> of you know of a way I can do this? 
The UNIX-ish way to do this, is invoking the user's prefered editor (as 
defined by the VISUAL or EDITOR environment variables) on a temporary 
file and read this file when the editor terminates.


From urbushey at sas.upenn.edu  Tue Aug 10 17:41:50 2004
From: urbushey at sas.upenn.edu (uri bushey)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:41:50 -0600
Subject: Printing in Python
Message-ID: <cfbfeq$9ngp$1@netnews.upenn.edu>

So I have a tkinter based little program in Python that has a canvas 
loaded with a WaveSurfer (http://www.speech.kth.se/wavesurfer/) widget.

I am trying to print the contents of the WaveSurfer canvas. Is there an 
easy way to do this in Python? Also, I can pretty easily use the 
WaveSurfer "print" function in my program, but taht only prints to a 
PostScript printer or prints out a PostScript file.

I would like to automate the process of printing the PostScript file in 
a manner that is not terribly unwieldy and as transparent to the user as 
possible. Is this possible?

Thanks!


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 14:30:07 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:30:07 -0400
Subject: Newbie 1st program
In-Reply-To: <f9d01b73.0408161010.1ba5e9e4@posting.google.com>
References: <f9d01b73.0408161010.1ba5e9e4@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <hp6dnbqxhPStYL3cRVn-pw@powergate.ca>

JDevine wrote:

> Hey.  I just finished my first python program.  In fact it is my first
> program program at all.  I went from zero knowledge to the current
> state in about 6 weeks.  Check it out at
> http://gobblewin.sourceforge.net  I need help for the next stage of
> development, I am also sure I could use a lot of advice on structure
> etc.  My #1 priority is adding a threaded status bar to track
> downloads to this program.  if you think you can help out let me know.

More people would take the time to visit that link if you
took the time to describe something, *anything*, about what
the program actually does and why we should bother looking.

(Congratulations, though.  After six weeks of programming I'm
quite sure I wasn't capable of writing anything that would
have been worth posting to Sourceforge, had it existed at
the time.)

-Peter


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Mon Aug 30 17:41:52 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:41:52 +0200
Subject: "Content-Length" header
In-Reply-To: <41339d7a$0$8090$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
References: <ch05dt$t0p@odak26.prod.google.com>
	<41339d7a$0$8090$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408302339500.1162-100000@kleigh.nl>

Grant Edwards schreef:

> I'll tell you _one_more_time_:  use Ethereal.  Here's the
> transaction for your first URL:
>
>   GET /~harnad/temp/ariadne-rae.doc HTTP/1.0
>   Host: www.ecs.soton.ac.uk
>   User-agent: Python-urllib/1.15
>
>   HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found
>   Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 21:27:42 GMT
>   Server: Apache/1.3.27 (Unix)  (Red-Hat/Linux) mod_ssl/2.8.12
>   OpenSSL/0.9.6b DAV/1.0.3 PHP/4.3.2 mod_perl/1.26
>   Connection: close
>   Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//IETF//DTD HTML 2.0//EN">
>   <HTML><HEAD>
>   <TITLE>404 Not Found</TITLE>
>   </HEAD><BODY>
>   <H1>Not Found</H1>
>   The requested URL /~harnad/temp/ariadne-rae.doc was not found
>   on this server.<P>
>   <HR>
>   <ADDRESS>Apache/1.3.27 Server at www.ecs.soton.ac.uk Port
>   80</ADDRESS>
>   </BODY></HTML>
>
> THERE IS NO CONTENT-LENGTH HEADER.  What do you expect urllib
> to do?

That is because you made a typo. Use the correct url, and you do
get content-length.

WTH is Ethereal?


-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From fakeaddress at nowhere.org  Sat Aug 21 04:38:33 2004
From: fakeaddress at nowhere.org (Bryan Olson)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 08:38:33 GMT
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1850.1092826328.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1850.1092826328.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <dSDVc.9181$9R.1949@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>

Michael Sparks wrote:
 > Bryan Olson wrote:
 > ...
 >>Have you been badly bitten by an evil co-routine?
 >
 > You appear to misunderstand what I was saying.

That could be.

 > I was not saying
 > co-routines are bad. I was saying that generators are, in my experience,
 > almost as effective.

You responded to my note that Python's generators "have a shadow
of the power of co-routines, by saying, "I've found their
simplicity useful for limiting the complexity of the
architecture."  I assumed you were saying that limiting
complexity was an advantage of Python's generators.  Perhaps I
had mis-read your meaning.  My assumption there was re-enforced
by your next sentence: "After all if any piece of software is
use for any length of time maintainability comes before
elegance."

My "Have you been badly bitten" crack was based on my reading of
your response, where I thought you disagreed my implication that
co-routines support simpler code structures and thus make programs
more maintainable.

 > This isn't attacking anything. It's saying that
 > generators really aren't as bad as it appears some people make out.
 >
 > As for network servers, it looks like the network server system based on
 > using generators to gain most of the benefits of co-routines I briefly
 > talked about (in one of the lightning talks) at EuroPython has been
 > blocked for release as open source :-(
 >
 > Your arguments in favour of co-routines for servers all hold (IME) for
 > generators as well. There is _slight_ extra obfuscation, but nowhere near
 > the level of change required for event processing.

Ah, so it seems we agree that generators result in more
obfuscation than co-routines, but in your experience the
difference is slight.  My experience is much different, and I
was trying to illustrate why that is, so readers wouldn't have
to rely just on my say-so.

 > NB. The reason I like generators is because they allow me to do
 > co-routine-type things in python with no addons.

In this thread, Bernhard Mulder showed how to do "co-routine-
type things" with Python generators, and to me the result looked
much worse than with real co-routines.  Do you have a much simpler
general method?

I do like the idea of "no addons", and that's why I'd like to
see co-routines in Python.  I'd like continuations even more,
but the Python authorities seem to value easy C-integration too
highly to allow that.


-- 
--Bryan


From fumanchu at amor.org  Tue Aug 24 19:11:17 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 16:11:17 -0700
Subject: Decorators: J2 and a relation to @
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E5E@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Shane Holloway wrote:
>  From the example in Section II, part 3 of 
> http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html consider the following 
> decorated function.
> 
>      @using([
>          funcattrs(author="Guido van Rossum"),
>          memorize,
>          synchronize,
>          classmethod,
>      ])
>      def foo(cls, *args):
>          pass
> 
> 
> This looks an lot like the suite method proposed in J2 in the current 
> syntax of Python 2.4a2.  All that would need to be added is a "using" 
> decorator method.  I like the @ because it makes me take note 
> that the 
> following is special in terms of code execution.[*]
> 
> What do you think?

I think you've come to the same conclusion I did in the Conclusion of
the J2 proposal: everyone agrees that decorators need to be distinct.
It's up to Guido to decide "how distinct"...@ is more distinct and
"using" less so. That's the big difference.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From insert at spam.here  Thu Aug 12 19:22:53 2004
From: insert at spam.here (Doug Holton)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 18:22:53 -0500
Subject: decorator syntax polling suggestion
In-Reply-To: <d11dcfba.0408121252.7690a43a@posting.google.com>
References: <d11dcfba.0408121252.7690a43a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <tMWdnW5dbupIZobcRVn-qQ@comcast.com>

Steven Bethard wrote:

> The poll, as stated, asked voters to vote for the syntax suggestion
> they liked the /most/.  Some of the conclusions people are trying to
> draw from it are what syntaxes people liked the /least/.  This is
> probably not the right conclusion to be drawing from the poll that was
> given.

What the poll found is that when given a choice between the current 
decorator syntax and two specific alternatives, people overwhelmingly 
choose the two alternatives.  So there are at least two specific 
alternative syntaxes out there (and of course probably more) that most 
people would prefer over the current one.

So it is reasonable to conclude that most people do not think the 
current decorator syntax is the best option.

Although that might seem obvious to some, that conclusion alone had not 
yet been clear based on mailing list traffic.

So if Guido does want to pay attention to the opinions of Python users 
(and he doesn't have to), then changing the current syntax probably 
wouldn't be an unpopular decision.  The question though, is what 
specific alternative syntax should it be?  There are at least two other 
popular syntaxes and very likely many more, but Guido asked for help in 
narrowing them down to one or two or three specific proposals so he 
could decide.

At the same time though, Guido has rejected all alternative syntaxes 
that have been presented, so the decorators will likely stay as is.  In 
the long long long term, decorators will be less important anyway, if we 
get features like optional static typing that Guido has expressed 
support for (no need for accepts and requires decorators), anonymous 
code blocks, etc.


From P at draigBrady.com  Wed Aug 18 11:24:41 2004
From: P at draigBrady.com (P at draigBrady.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:24:41 +0100
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <_wKUc.25195$Z14.7850@news.indigo.ie>

Lucas Raab wrote:
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....

30

-- 
P?draig Brady - http://www.pixelbeat.org
-- 


From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Sun Aug 22 23:43:25 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 23:43:25 -0400
Subject: Logical lines of code counter
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2172.1093230107.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <2ot090Fe5442U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<mailman.2172.1093230107.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2ot78fFe1mneU1@uni-berlin.de>

Tim Leslie wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:44:17 -0400, Leif K-Brooks <eurleif at ecritters.biz> wrote:
> 
>>I got bored with working on larger projects and wrote a little
>>script/module for counting logical (not physical) lines of Python code
>>in a file or directory.
> If you want something which can do this and so much more, have a look at pylint.
> 
> http://www.logilab.org/projects/pylint

Neat-looking tool, but not really usable for me. It counts physical 
lines, not logical lines; it doesn't seem to have an option to 
recursively scan all sub-directories and files in a directory; and it 
refuses to process a file if some of the modules code wants to import 
aren't importable, which is the case with mod_python code.


From ramen at lackingtalent.com  Tue Aug 17 18:44:52 2004
From: ramen at lackingtalent.com (Dave Benjamin)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 22:44:52 -0000
Subject: Flython
References: <slrnchq8lg.q3d.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
	<LIqdndvJz9MDoL3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <slrnci53hk.4hm.ramen@lackingtalent.com>

In article <LIqdndvJz9MDoL3cRVn-og at powergate.ca>, Peter Hansen wrote:
> Dave Benjamin wrote:
> 
>> I just want to say, for the record, that if anyone can successfully build a
>> Python compiler that can produce Flash bytecode, I will personally allow
>> you to throw *any number of pies* in my face, in as public of a ceremony as
>> you desire. Furthermore, I will match you 50/50 in the cost of the pies.
> 
> Why on earth (unless it's the liking pies thing or the really wanting
> this to be done thing) would you say that?  Flash bytecode is pretty
> straightforward, and Python's not magic.

Because getting a pie (or twelve) in the face is a lot less work than
actually writing a parser and code generator. I have been writing
ActionScript for two years now, and I am so sick and tired of its lack of
useful data structures (like sets and dictionaries), god-awful
error-checking (any bad message results in the "undefined" value, which
accpets any message and returns the "undefined" value, and so on, until your
error surfaces someplace completely different from where it was caused),
lack of exceptions, lack of any standard for modularity... I could just go
on and on. I'm currently maintaining a 10,000 line ActionScript program, and
I would be so happy to rewrite it in Python right now.

And Python *is* magic. =)

> In any case, if this is a serious challenge, you'd better start
> identifying the constraints and minimum requirements, as I'm
> rather positive that it's possible to encode at least *one*
> Python statement (print) into Flash bytecode which would
> execute properly...  shall I demonstrate for, say, one pie?

Good point. I expect at least the full syntax as of Python 2.1, which means
list comps but no "yield" or metaclasses or any fancy stuff like that.
Perhaps one pie per Bagley's Shootout example, or maybe one pie per fully
exposed Flash API (MovieClip, LocalConnection, etc.). I'm open to
negotiation.

But the irony here is that the amount of work that would go into a Python
port to SWF would be far greater than the amount of suffering I would endure
from a bunch of pies in the face. It's really on my side, because you do all
the work, and then I don't have to write ActionScript anymore. =)

Best wishes,
Dave

-- 
 .:[ dave benjamin: ramen/[sp00] -:- spoomusic.com -:- ramenfest.com ]:.
        "talking about music is like dancing about architecture."


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Fri Aug 13 08:18:30 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 12:18:30 GMT
Subject: PEP318
References: <0I2D001ZDU03UQ@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<mailman.1609.1092397396.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1gbph0lb8cdv2erob2mog5kffpcohgnv1s@4ax.com>

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:30:57 +0200, Ronald Oussoren
<ronaldoussoren at mac.com> wrote:


>
>Decorators would make live a lot easier for us, but not having 
>decorators won't kill PyObjC.
>
>I would like to have decorators, but not at every cost. The 
>@decorator-before-def proposal looks sane.

Thanks for the clarification of your position.  I *was* uncomfortable
guessing at it.

I try to look at  it - that it will make life easier for certain
important projects, and actually cost folks like me nothing.  

And the actual style of programming it promotes (not declarative per
se, but passing around and returning functions) will probably give me
(and others of similar profile) more exposure to concepts that are
good to have one's mind around. And I am free to use the concepts,
without the syntax - forego the sugar.

But I can't seem to sustain that perspective. 

I think I've used this before - but I do hate to think of myself as
one of the folks booing in the audience at Newport when Dylan plugged
in his electric guitar for the first time.

Perhaps I am. 

But it's not like  I don't see the up side - I don't think.  The fact
is that I do - I think - and still wish it wasn't going down.    


Art
>
>Ronald



From aisaac at american.edu  Sat Aug 14 20:54:27 2004
From: aisaac at american.edu (Alan G Isaac)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 20:54:27 -0400
Subject: ironic doctest bug?
References: <10hq7lsguiqfj93@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <10htcuj6374u5d@corp.supernews.com>

"Alan G Isaac" <aisaac at american.edu> wrote in message
news:10hq7lsguiqfj93 at corp.supernews.com...
> 1 items had failures:
>    1 of  14 in doctest.Tester.rundict
> 71 tests in 47 items.
> 70 passed and 1 failed.
> ***Test Failed*** 1 failures.

This was the punchline of course.
Am I overlooking something?
Thanks,
Alan Isaac




From listserver at tdw.net  Wed Aug 11 09:08:14 2004
From: listserver at tdw.net (Tim Williams)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:08:14 +0100
Subject: doing successive prints without space in between
References: <200408110901.i7B911cE012665@mailhub.wolfram.com>
	<001401c47f88$17cf5500$ccbefea9@twilliams>
Message-ID: <007301c47fa4$43224520$ccbefea9@twilliams>

On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:59:39 GMT, Harry George <harry.g.george at boeing.com>
wrote:
> Jon Perez <jbperez808 at yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > I'd like to print a series of successive periods as a
> > progress status in a command line script using python.
> > Unforutnately, if I do a series of successive
> >
> > print ".",
> >
> > I get a space in between.  Is there any way to avoid
> > this?
>
> This show up regularly and might be a FAQ.  The print is trying to
> help you out.  If you want total control, go to the lower levels:
>
> wr=sys.stdout  #redirect as desired
>
> def myprint(txt):
>    wr.write(txt)   #raw print
>    wr.flush()      #flush the dots as they occur
>
> for i in range(100):
>    do_something()
>    myprint('.')
>
> myprint('\n')

Apologies for posting roughly the same solution in two posts :-)

for i in range(100):
   do_something()
   print '\b.',

:-)






From ramen at lackingtalent.com  Fri Aug  6 12:15:01 2004
From: ramen at lackingtalent.com (Dave Benjamin)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 16:15:01 -0000
Subject: checking whether a var is empty or not
References: <cec880$8ct$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu> <opsbxubr1g1v4ijd@musicbox>
	<slrnch0vat.rhb.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
	<opsb9nh9xd1v4ijd@musicbox>
Message-ID: <slrnch7ci4.rgn.ramen@lackingtalent.com>

In article <opsb9nh9xd1v4ijd at musicbox>, Pierre-Fr?d?ric Caillaud wrote:
> 
>> No, in PHP, you can find out if a variable exists using isset(). And  
>> trying
>> to dereference an uninitialized variable will generate a warning if you  
>> have
>> error reporting turned up all the way (error_reporting(E_ALL)).
> 
> 	WRONG !!!!!
> 	Example in this stupid language :
> 
><?php
> 
> 	echo "<p>one : ";
> 	var_dump(isset( $a ));
> 	
> 	$a = 1;
> 	echo "<p>two : ";
> 	var_dump(isset( $a ));
> 	
> 	$a = null;
> 	echo "<p>three : ";
> 	var_dump(isset( $a ));
> 
> ?>
> 
> 	Output :
> 
> one : bool(false)
> two : bool(true)
> three : bool(false)
> 
> 	Get it ?

I stand corrected. That is rather stupid.

Well, I try to use nulls sparingly and always initialize my variables, which
may explain why in the five or so years I've been using PHP, I've never run
into this problem. Likewise, I don't think I've ever had to use the
corresponding idiom in Python:

try:
    a
except NameError:
    # ...

At the very least, I'll be testing for a's existence in some namespace, so
I'll be looking for an AttributeError.

-- 
  .:[ dave benjamin: ramen/[sp00] -:- spoomusic.com -:- ramenfest.com ]:.

"When the country is confused and in chaos, information scientists appear."
Librarian's Lao Tzu: http://www.geocities.com/onelibrarian.geo/lao_tzu.html


From dietz at dls.net  Fri Aug 27 08:30:53 2004
From: dietz at dls.net (Paul F. Dietz)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 07:30:53 -0500
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.58.0408262235270.568@zaphod.rite-group.com>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.SOL.4.58.0408251722510.568@zaphod.rite-group.com>
	<jh5ti01keef8ov2kjpdg0hp9nfi0oj45ma@4ax.com>
	<Pine.SOL.4.58.0408262235270.568@zaphod.rite-group.com>
Message-ID: <jvydnS3JlcWttLLcRVn-vQ@dls.net>

Rich Teer wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Reynir Stef?nsson wrote:
> 
> 
>>And then there's this crazy little thing called love...
> 
> 
> Nah - that was Queen!

When I was seventeen
I drank some very good beer.
I drank some very good beer
I purchased with a fake ID.
My name was Brian McGee.
I stayed up listening to Queen.
When I was seventeen.

	Paul (channeling Homer)


From justin__devine at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 19 10:47:08 2004
From: justin__devine at hotmail.com (justin__devine at hotmail.com)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 07:47:08 -0700
Subject: refreshing a wxWidget
Message-ID: <cg2ehc$bn1@odah37.prod.google.com>

I have a quick question here is my widget it is a Radiobox.

rb = wx.RadioBox(
self, -1, "Quick Sites", (10, 215), (425, 70),
labellist, 5, wx.RA_SPECIFY_COLS
)
self.rb = rb

later on in the program I change labellist
the question is I can't get the radiobox to refresh and display with
the new values

I have tried .Refresh()
I have tried .Create()
I have tried refreshing the panel in which i have created the radiobox.
All no go... so does someone know the answer to this problem?

Thanks alot

An earlier version of the full code (without this feature) can be found
at http://gobblewin.sourceforge.net or
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/gobblewin/

Thanks again.



From duncan.booth at invalid.invalid  Thu Aug 19 07:50:43 2004
From: duncan.booth at invalid.invalid (Duncan Booth)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 11:50:43 GMT
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
References: <20040814153534.8AC171E4007@bag.python.org>
	<e69d3ed204081706284b20ea8d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cft1h1$8ru$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<mailman.1804.1092754567.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cftpkf$acj$1@panix1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1946.1092911824.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Xns954A81CA54699duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>

Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote in 
news:mailman.1946.1092911824.5135.python-list at python.org:

> On 17 Aug 2004 16:25:51 -0400, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
>> No, no, no, Americans get humor just fine -- what they don't get is
>> irony.
> 
> That'd be "something like iron"?

I remember one newsgroup deciding that all posts which included irony 
should be indicated with an appropriate emoticon, namely (Fe)


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Mon Aug 30 20:24:19 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 19:24:19 -0500
Subject: console window not disappearing with py2exe
References: <173c23bb.0408301410.49b27fe4@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pr6dne_QKaesWK7cRVn-jQ@comcast.com>

Put -windows option on compile line:

python setup.py py2exe --windows

HTH,
Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.


"Matthew K Jensen" <mattjensen at timetospare.net> wrote in message
news:173c23bb.0408301410.49b27fe4 at posting.google.com...
> In another one of my silly apps, I'm using 'windows=' in the setup
> script. I can't get the darn console window do disappear. Since the
> said app is going to be used with people that have less-than-average
> knowledge in computers, it is imperative that this window goes away. I
> tried sys.frozen = "windows_exe" and it doesn't work. I'm not sure
> what to do. Please save me!
>
> -Matt K Jensen




From ovazquez at nospam.shaw.ca  Tue Aug 17 19:02:00 2004
From: ovazquez at nospam.shaw.ca (Orlando Vazquez)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 23:02:00 GMT
Subject: favorite python web development tool?
In-Reply-To: <10i4nttktcvltdd@corp.supernews.com>
References: <10i4nttktcvltdd@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <I7wUc.136114$gE.27933@pd7tw3no>

mike wrote:

> hi all -
> 
> 
> i'm fairly new to python, coming from a java servlet / velocity template 
> background.  i'm looking for a good python web development tool, and 
> hope to find some suggestions here.

I've found mod_python + ZopePageTemplates (standalone) to be superb 
solution to web application development. ZPT feels like a very natural 
and maintainable way to separate business logic from presentation. Since 
I've started using these two technologies, I've found my productivity 
greatly increased.

http://www.modpython.org
http://zpt.sourceforge.net/

Have fun and take care ;-)

-- 
Orlando Vazquez
Remove the obvious from my e-mail address to reply.


From wilkSPAM at OUTflibuste.net  Mon Aug  2 17:03:19 2004
From: wilkSPAM at OUTflibuste.net (Wilk)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 23:03:19 +0200
Subject: where is yaml ?
Message-ID: <878ycxtfqg.fsf@blakie.riol>

Hi,

It seems that the link for python-yaml on the http://yaml.org main page
is loose (http://iron.cx/yaml) :-(

Anybody knows what's append ?

What do you use ? pure python-yaml or syck ?

-- 
Wilk - http://flibuste.net


From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Sun Aug 22 17:14:31 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 23:14:31 +0200
Subject: How to sort this kind of list easily?
In-Reply-To: <4128ef9d$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
References: <mailman.2030.1093000452.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4128ef9d$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
Message-ID: <2osggvFebhtbU2@uni-berlin.de>

Scott David Daniels wrote:
> Ben Last wrote:
>>>From: Anthony Baxter, in response to BruceKL WhoH
>>>list.sort sorts tuples by first argument, then second &c. If you want a
>>>custom sort order, look at the decorate-sort-undecorate pattern.
>> 
>> 
>> Or if you want to sort only on your Id, use a lambda:
>> l.sort(lambda x,y: cmp(x[0],y[0]))
>> 
>> To force sorting on just the nth element of the tuples, replace 0 with n in
>> the above.
>> 
>> b
>> 
> If you are using 2.4 (now in beta), you could also do:
> 
> lst.sort(key=lambda element:element[1])

_If_ you are using 2.4, better use:

lst.sort(key=operator.itemgetter(1))

Reinhold

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From catcher at linuxmail.org  Sun Aug  1 16:01:33 2004
From: catcher at linuxmail.org (Robert)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 16:01:33 -0400
Subject: python tutes on win32
References: <f6e0a56a.0408011144.12bde5ad@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1ZmdnZw7k-WA0ZDcRVn-rg@adelphia.com>

"Jed R. Mallen" <jedwardrm at yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:f6e0a56a.0408011144.12bde5ad at posting.google.com...
> Hello,
>
> Can anyone point me to a nice tute on making python apps for win32?
>
> TIA

I looked up "tute" in the dictionary. No such word, so I must assume the
answer is no. I am sure a nice Google search or even a search on the Python
web site would help you a lot.





From ngps at netmemetic.com  Thu Aug  5 11:32:08 2004
From: ngps at netmemetic.com (Ng Pheng Siong)
Date: 5 Aug 2004 15:32:08 GMT
Subject: ZServerSSL and Certificates
References: <3222fe00.0408050548.43b5f0fd@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cetjto$3ro$1@reader01.singnet.com.sg>

According to Sean <stuffduff at cox.net>:
> However I'm really not clear on
> certificates in general, and we're about to try it with real certs
> from a real CA.

Ahem, please read this sentence aloud to yourself. Does it sound like a
good idea?

> # openssl -des3 -out privatekey 1024
> # ./CA.pl -newreq

You mean 'openssl rsa ...' Anyways it is a no-op, given your second
command; i.e., 'CA.pl -newreq' generates a key pair.

> So I take privatekey.pem and the ca cert and combine them into a
> single file called ca.pem.

Why?

> # ./CA.pl -sign

This _signs_ your certificate request. Given that you've already gotten
your certificate request signed by a 3rd party CA, this step is
superfluous.

> # openssl rsa < newreq.pem > newkey.pem
> and I combine the server cert and newkey.pem and call it server.pem.

Yup this is fine provided your newreq.pem contains your private key.

> Microsoft IE6 first shows a request for a cert to use, 

This sounds like the server is asking for a client cert. Have you
configured your ZServerSSL to do so? I think the server doesn't do that by
default.

> I click OK to
> bypass it then a warning dialog that the ca is not trusted.

Is the 3rd party CA's cert installed into your IE6?

> Mozilla diaplays a panel warning that there are three potential
> problems.

What are the error messages?

> In either case if I ignore the warnings I get a secure connection.

You get a HTTPS connection. You are connecting to a site (well, your own,
in this case) which certificate's CA your browser does not trust.
"Secure" is a loaded word. ;-)

> I need to understand what I'm doing wrong here.

Read up more on how X.509 certificates are structured and on how SSL uses
them. 

Then go install one or more other SSL server products.  Follow their
instructions on installing certificates. Once you see how different
software packages do the same things it should become clearer to you.  Try
Apache + mod_ssl or AOLserver, say. Don't choose one where you configure
the stuff using Windows or web-based pointy-and-clicky interfaces - you
won't learn much that way.

HTH.


-- 
Ng Pheng Siong <ngps at netmemetic.com> 

http://firewall.rulemaker.net -+- Cisco PIX & Netscreen Config Version Control 
http://sandbox.rulemaker.net/ngps -+- M2Crypto, ZServerSSL for Zope, Blog


From martin at v.loewis.de  Mon Aug  2 06:33:48 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 12:33:48 +0200
Subject: building python extensions for windows : python23_d.lib file
 is missing
In-Reply-To: <410e0b05$0$1895$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
References: <410e0b05$0$1895$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <410e1889$0$24804$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

Antoine Maillard wrote:
> But we don't know how to go through this (perhaps recompiling a debug
> version ... but we don't know how to do).

Yes, you need to compile a debug version. Download the Python source
code, and follow the instructions in PCbuild/readme.txt.

Alternatively:
a) build a release version of your own code, not a debug version, or
b) do not define _DEBUG in the debug version of your code

Regards,
Martin


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sun Aug  8 04:05:41 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 18:05:41 +1000
Subject: Mailing lists
In-Reply-To: <ad052e5c.0408072342.4cc3d258@posting.google.com>
References: <ad052e5c.0408072342.4cc3d258@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204080801051d75dfbf@mail.gmail.com>

On 8 Aug 2004 00:42:09 -0700, Dan Bishop <danb_83 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Has anyone here implemented a mailing list server in Python?

Erm. mailman? It's probably the single most-used piece of mailing list
software on the internet, and is in Python


From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Wed Aug 25 08:45:38 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:45:38 +0200
Subject: module functions list
References: <cghu3v$afp$02$1@news.t-online.com>
	<mailman.2349.1093436280.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgi1l9$35r$03$1@news.t-online.com>

Hi,

> You could use a list comprehension coupled with a filter:
> 
> functionList = [function for function in dir(objectName) \
>     if callable(getattr(objectName,function))]

That works if objectName is my module - but how do I get a reference to the
current module _inside_ my module? Thats the hart part (at least for
me ...)

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From b.niemann at betternet.de  Wed Aug 25 11:44:58 2004
From: b.niemann at betternet.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:44:58 +0200
Subject: Floating point weirdness
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2362.1093447958.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2362.1093447958.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgibvn$t6h$1@online.de>

Joshua Ginsberg wrote:

> WTF, mate?
> 
> 
>>>>import sys
>>>>sys.version
> 
> '2.3.3 (#1, May  7 2004, 10:31:40) \n[GCC 3.3.3 20040412 (Red Hat Linux
> 3.3.3-7)]'
> 
>>>>float('19.95')
> 
> 19.949999999999999
> 
>>>>round(19.94999999999999999, 2)
> 
> 19.949999999999999
> 
>>>>round(19.949, 1)
> 
> 19.899999999999999
> 
> Why can't I just get 19.95?
floats are represented as 64 (or 128?) bit values and there's no value 
that exactly represents 19.95 or 19.9 (=round(19.949, 1)). The last 
example results in the closest value to 19.9, but not exactly. Python 
prints this value with maximum precision. If you want a string 
representation of a float with e.g. 2 digits precision, use
"%.2f" % 19.949


From graham__fawcett at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 17 12:34:36 2004
From: graham__fawcett at hotmail.com (Graham Fawcett)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 09:34:36 -0700
Subject: Flython?
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <e9570f37.0408170737.1a071c79@posting.google.com>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message news:<BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ at powergate.ca>...
> Just been looking at Flash and ActionScript...
> 
> In the vein of Jython, I wonder what it would take to build
> a Flython?  (Lousy name, I know.)  That would take Python
> source, presumably a subset since some things couldn't be supported,
> and compile it into ActionScript bytecode (aka the bytecode compiled
> from ECMAScript source for the Macromedia Flash player environment).

I've written some code (twice, I think) to generate SWF from Python.
Didn't include ActionScript, but it's all there in the SWF spec, so it
shouldn't be *too* hard to implement. My code was less than fast, and
was highly specialized to do a few things that I was interested in
(and ignored the rest). If there's interest, I'll dig it out, though
it's far from project-grade code and is possibly broken. The toughest
part was just grokking the SWF spec, and building some Pythonic
primitives that can output SWF tags. Simply put, writing SWF from
Python isn't rocket science. But of course, you want more than just
that...

> With that, it would be pretty easy to write applications which
> have a Flash front end, but with pretty much all the logic
> on front and back implemented in Python.

A neat idea, definitely begging for a proof-of-concept. I look forward
to testing it. ;-)

There will be times when you want to make a GUI "flashier" than your
framework will allow (unless you're planning to reimplement all of
Flash). Perhaps you might want to use the framework to prototype
something, and then knock the real thing out using Flash (perhaps
importing the ActionScript from your framework). I'd encourage you to
leave room in the design for the inclusion of non-native SWF
components (i.e. ones built using something other than your framework)
that could interact with your back-end (and, through it, with other
client components).

Dave Kuhlmann has done some interesting writing on generating Web
applications from declarations (google for him, Quixote, and REST, and
it should turn up). This might be useful, since your framework spans
the client/server boundary (and perhaps you'd like to obscure that
boundary just a little bit) and would be well suited to a declarative
style (except for the scripting). Quixote suits REST quite well, it
seems, and might be worth consideration as part of your back-end
design.

The last random snippet that comes to mind is that, on Win32, it's not
hard to build a SWF viewer using wxPython (and the SWF plugin, of
course). That might help with deployment where a browser really isn't
suitable.

I know I've said "your framework" half a dozen times, and there's no
such animal, but I do hope that you or someone else picks up the trail
on this and gives it a college try. It would be fun to use, I think.

-- Graham <fawcett at uwindsor.ca>


From Jon_Kinsey at Hotmail.com  Thu Aug  5 04:30:43 2004
From: Jon_Kinsey at Hotmail.com (Jon Kinsey)
Date: 5 Aug 2004 01:30:43 -0700
Subject: Embedding python
Message-ID: <e8bc7944.0408050030.2a460cba@posting.google.com>

I've embedded python in a program, am I right in thinking python has
to be installed on a machine for my program to work?

If so how can I find out if python is installed/what version is
installed - programatically and cross platform.

Jon


From apardon at forel.vub.ac.be  Wed Aug 18 03:36:58 2004
From: apardon at forel.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 07:36:58 GMT
Subject: Piping stdout to Python callable
References: <bYbUc.24077$nx2.16696@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<slrnci3t3q.k5.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<WZxUc.25125$nx2.16316@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <slrnci61oq.k5.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>

Op 2004-08-18, Edward Diener schreef <eldiener at earthlink.net>:
> Antoon Pardon wrote:
>> Op 2004-08-17, Edward Diener schreef <eldiener at earthlink.net>:
>>> From within a function in my own module I need to take the output
>>> from a Python module "A", which is sending data to stdout and which
>>> can not be changed and which I need to invoke as a top-level module,
>>> and pipe it into another function in my own module so that I can
>>> read it from stdin. Is there an easy way to do this ? The only way I
>>> can presently think to do this is through "system python A.py |
>>> python MyOwnModule.py", which seems a bit laborious having to invoke
>>> python.exe itself twice. Any other solution would be most welcome.
>>
>> What do you mean when you say you need to invoke it as a top-level
>> module?  Do you mean you can't import it at all or that importing it
>> will startup the process of generating output immediatly?
>
> I mean that it has a "if __name__ == '__main__' line and I need to trigger
> it by calling 'python A.py'.

>>
>> What bothers you with twice invoking the interpreter?
>
> Nothing practically. Just seems inelegant.
>
>> In these days
>> a program that is invoked multiples times will generally be only
>> loaded once in memory.
>
> Shared libraries may be loaded once in memory but python.exe itself gets
> reloaded each time.

That depends on the O.S. It is possible the O.S. notices that an
invoked program is already loaded en uses the same code-segment
in memory for following invocations.

>> Are threads an acceptable alternative? Does your MyOwnModule.py needs
>> to write to stdout?
>
> Threads are acceptable. MyOwnModule.py can do anything, depending on
> parameters, but the idea is that a certain parameter tells it to read from
> stdin on the other end of the pipe.

Then I fear there is no other solution. As far as I understand, you
can't redirect standard output on a per thread basis, (at least not
in python.) That means that if you redirect stdout of the A.py module
to go into a pipe, the stdout of MyOwnModule.py will go into the
same pipe. I don't think you want that.

-- 
Antoon Pardon


From franz.steinhaeusler at utanet.at  Wed Aug 18 09:57:20 2004
From: franz.steinhaeusler at utanet.at (Franz Steinhaeusler)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:57:20 +0200
Subject: Editors again
References: <cfrbse$j8n$1@bagan.srce.hr>
Message-ID: <5mn6i0dp9f25phlja2tu8r9f25454njii8@4ax.com>

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 00:18:52 +0200, Ivan Voras
<ivoras at __-geri.cc.fer.hr> wrote:

>Are there any editors besides IDLE that can display doc-strings[*] in 
>popups? I tried SPE and DrPython, and while they are ok (better said 
>'not horribly bad'), they don't seem to have that option.

Did you took a closer look to DrPython?

This feature is called CallTips in DrPython.
It is realized as plugin and you can it download from the plugin section
of downloads.

>
>I'd like to see in an editor:
>  - code-completion in case of functions, member variables etc. 
>("intelli-sense"? :) )

there is also a plugin "AutoComplete".

>  - useful usage of doc-strings, maybe integrated python Help/Manual support

What do you mean exactly?

>  - MDI or similar style, with good navigation (this is why I don't like 
>IDLE)

All open Documents can be easily reached through the notebook-tabs.

HTH
-- 
Franz Steinhaeusler


From news at finseth.com  Tue Aug 31 12:06:31 2004
From: news at finseth.com (Craig A. Finseth)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 16:06:31 GMT
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<slrncj8m5n.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<%T%Yc.29567$Es2.11957889@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<du7k6vfnvx9.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>
Message-ID: <4134a207$0$65568$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

In article <du7k6vfnvx9.fsf at amadeus.cc.tut.fi>,
Ville Vainio  <ville at spammers.com> wrote:
>>>>>> "John" == John W Kennedy <jwkenne at attglobal.net> writes:
>
>    John> Yes, and also a single-process pipe emulator.  Ever since
>    John> 2.0, MS has been trying to turn MS-DOS (later, Windows) into
>    John> a Unix clone.
>
>With very little success. Notepad still only understands cr-lf line
>breaks, and / as path separator still screws up most of their cmd line
>programs (which think / is for command line options).
>
>Microsoft probably thought avoiding compatibility is a good idea, and
>have only lately started to have some regrets, visible as the release
	...

Wrong.  The / was chosen as the command line option separator because
whoever wrote MSDOS was looking to CP/M, who modelled their commands
after a PDP-11 operating system (RT-11?).  Consider the "PIP" command.

When they went to MS/DOS 2.0 and needed path separators, they found
that "/" was already taken, so they used "\".  But there was a hidden
way to tell the command interpreter that it could use "-" for options.

And in all systems starting with 2.0, the system calls have taken "/"
and "\" interchangably.

Craig, who wrote a lot of code for CP/M, MS-DOS 1* and Later....




From tundra at tundraware.com  Fri Aug 20 16:39:53 2004
From: tundra at tundraware.com (Tim Daneliuk)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 16:39:53 EDT
Subject: My only complaint about Python
In-Reply-To: <CuCdnUCvWK5XSLncRVn-jw@giganews.com>
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<CuCdnUCvWK5XSLncRVn-jw@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <sr3iv1-b5c1.ln1@eskimo.tundraware.com>

Istvan Albert wrote:

> Darren Dale wrote:
> 
>> I love the language. I love the community. My only complaint is that 
>> Python for Windows is built with Visual Studio.
>>
>> It is too difficult to build python, or a module, from source. 
> 
> 
> In all fairness this is more the problem with Microsoft than
> python. If they had a free fully-featured compiler then Python
> would be compiled with that.


They do.  MSC/C++ is now available at NO cost:

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualc/vctoolkit2003/


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk     tundra at tundraware.com
PGP Key:         http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 30 09:25:02 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 15:25:02 +0200
Subject: regex into str
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408290203530.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<mailman.2571.1093744862.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408290406250.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<pan.2004.08.29.01.54.57.901288@jerf.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408291253300.1159-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <1gjc7vj.1vhe7n7mu75glN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Peter Kleiweg <in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid> wrote:
   ...
> > > Is there a way to tell Python that '' should be something else
> > > than str?
> >
> > No.
> 
> Bummer.

I think you might be happier with Ruby -- beyond a number of trivia, the
big difference between the two, from my POV, is that in Ruby you can
alter built-ins, in Python you can't.  Which is why I personally stick
with Python, but to anyone who mostly likes Python but believes he would
get better programs by modifying built-ins, I suggest Ruby.


Alex


From duncan.booth at invalid.invalid  Fri Aug 13 11:01:01 2004
From: duncan.booth at invalid.invalid (Duncan Booth)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 15:01:01 GMT
Subject: Difference between readlines() and iterating on a file object?
References: <411cd102$1@mail.hmgcc.gov.uk>
Message-ID: <Xns9544A24CD2AE0duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>

"Richard" <richardd at hmgcc.gov.uk> wrote in
news:411cd102$1 at mail.hmgcc.gov.uk: 

> Hi,
> 
> Can anyone tell me what the difference is between
> 
> for line in file.readlines( ):

reads the entire file into memory and splits it up into a list of lines 
then iterates over the list. If you break from the loop, tough you've lost 
any lines that were read but you didn't handle.

> 
> and
> 
> for line in file:

reads part of the file and strips off one line at a time. Never creates a 
list. Reads more only when it runs out of the block it read. If you break 
from the loop you can do another 'for line in file' and get the remaining 
lines.

> 
> where file is a file object returned from an open( ) call?
> 


From jmfbahciv at aol.com  Sun Aug 29 05:55:33 2004
From: jmfbahciv at aol.com (jmfbahciv at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 04 09:55:33 GMT
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<412e199e$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<jdoherty-2708041631070001@192.168.2.178>
	<4130654c$0$19703$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>
	<cJWdnetJbNOixazcRVn-iA@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <4131babd$0$19722$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>

In article <cJWdnetJbNOixazcRVn-iA at speakeasy.net>,
   rpw3 at rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
>+---------------
>| jdoherty at nowhere.null.not (John Doherty) wrote:
>| >AND HOW MANY SPACES PER TAB STOP?
>| 
>| Eight.  Now talk about indenting skip returns...that one
>| required blood transfusions.  [emoticon looks at list of n.g.]
>| I guess not many will understand.
>+---------------
>      
>You might be surprised, Barb. Quite a few of the comp.lang.lisp crew 
>are former PDP-10 geeks.  ;-}

<GRIN>  Yep for Lisp, but Perl and Python?  Everything after python is
printing off my screen (I hate forms).
>  
>And just to be sure *I'm* understanding what you're talking about,  ;-}
>did you mean the convention of the second line of the following snippet?

Yep, but you have a bug.  The MOVEI [emoticon scrolls down to look]
heh...  my reply form is non-porportional and now everything is
wrong.  That's why the hard and fast rule of 8 was used in PDP-10
land.
>  
>    foo:    pushj   p,ckperm
>	     pjrst  badprm          ; user lacks privs, complain & return.
>	    movei   t0,cmdblk       ; o.k. to proceed.
>	    ...
>
>Indenting the non-skip return for a subroutine call was always pretty 
>clear to me. 

It was to the -20 types, too.  The -10 types maintained that,
if the human code reader didn't know the call had a skip return,
he had no business looking at the code.  Having the opcodes all
line up left-justified made reading code quickly possible.

> ..Where things got really muddled (and contentious!) was 
>when you had long skip chains of T{R,L}{Z,O,C,~}{N,E} instructions 
>in which whether a particular instruction was in the skipped-to or 
>non-skipped position depended dynamically on the flow of control 
>above it. [HAKMEM was chock-full of that kind of "efficient" code.]
>In that case, it seemed more readable to simply not indent anything in
>the skip chain, and put a scary comment warning about the tricky code.

If you knew your biz, you didn't need the scary warning.  Now
consider a list of PUSHJs where each could have a skip, 
double-skip or triple-skip return.  Depending on which way
you're flowing through the code, each and every one could be
indented and not-indented.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


From eppstein at ics.uci.edu  Mon Aug 23 14:58:15 2004
From: eppstein at ics.uci.edu (David Eppstein)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:58:15 -0700
Subject: Standard graph API?
References: <slrncik8tm.4g.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
Message-ID: <eppstein-08D901.11581523082004@news.service.uci.edu>

In article <slrncik8tm.4g.mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no>,
 mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no (Magnus Lie Hetland) wrote:

> Yes, we have the standard ways of implementing graphs through (e.g.) 
> dicts mapping nodes to neighbor-sets, but if one wants a graph that's 
> implemented in some other way, this may not be the most convenient 
> (or abstract) interface to emulate.

Actually, my interpretation of this standard way is as a fairly abstract 
interface, rather than a specific instantiation such as dict-of-sets:
Most of the time, I merely require that iter(G) produces a sequence of 
the vertices of graph G, and iter(G[v]) produces a sequence of neighbors 
of vertex v.  I also sometimes use "v in G" and "w in G[v]" to test 
existence of vertices or edges.

Pros and cons of this approach:

- You can use a list instead of a set in the adjacency list part of the 
representation.  This may be faster and more space efficient when the 
vertex degrees are small.

- It's easy to create test graphs as code literals

    G1 = {
        0: [1,2,5],
        1: [0,5],
        2: [0,3,4],
        3: [2,4,5,6],
        4: [2,3,5,6],
        5: [0,1,3,4],
        6: [3,4],
    }
    G2 = {
        0: [2,5],
        1: [3,8],
        2: [0,3,5],
        3: [1,2,6,8],
        4: [7],
        5: [0,2],
        6: [3,8],
        7: [4],
        8: [1,3,6],
    }

- Any indexable object can be a vertex.  The vertex identities can be 
something meaningful to your program.  On the other hand, that means 
(unless you know where your graph came from) you can't rely on the 
vertices being special vertex objects with nice properties and you can't 
use objects like None as flag values unless you're sure they won't be 
vertices.

- It doesn't provide an abstract way of changing the graph (although 
that's relatively easy if G is e.g. a dict of sets)

- It doesn't directly represent multigraphs

- It doesn't directly represent undirected graphs (instead you have to 
replace an undirected edge by two directed edges and hope your callers 
don't give you a directed graph by mistake).

- There isn't an explicit object representing an edge, although you can 
create one by using a tuple (v,w) or (for undirected edges) a set.  This 
can be an advantage in terms of memory usage but a disadvantage in terms 
of number of object creations.  Also it means that if you want to store 
information on the edges you have to use a dict indexed by the edge 
instead of attributes on an edge object (probably better style anyway 
since it prevents different algorithms on the same graph from colliding 
with each other's attributes).

-- 
David Eppstein
Computer Science Dept., Univ. of California, Irvine
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/


From curzio.basso at unibas.ch  Tue Aug 10 10:35:48 2004
From: curzio.basso at unibas.ch (Curzio Basso)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:35:48 +0200
Subject: how to dispatch objects depending on their class 
Message-ID: <4118dd4a$1@maser.urz.unibas.ch>


Hi all.

I have a couple of question regarding the following situation:

class A(object):
   def __init__(self):
     pass

class B(object):
   def __init__(self):
     A.__init__(self)

def func(object):
   if isinstance(object, A):
     do_something_with_A(object)
   elif isinstance(object, B):
     do_something_with_B(object)

Note that in my real problem I cannot move the logic of func to the 
class A and B because I will have a hierarchy also for func. Then I need 
a way to dispatch the object to the right function. I thought about 
using a dictionary, like:

FUNC = {"<class '__main__.A'>": do_something_with_A,
         "<class '__main__.B'>": do_something_with_B}

def func(object):
   FUNC[type(object)](object)

But: (1) I am not sure of what the type(object) function return. In this 
case A and B are in the __main__ namespace (assuming this is how is 
called), but if they are in a module; (2) I am not sure if it is 
efficient; and finally (3): probably there is a better way to do it 
(this is always a safe assumption).

I hope my problem is clear, and excuse me if I am asking about something 
that is common knowledge, but I don't even know what to google for...

thanks, curzio


From http  Sat Aug 21 23:29:51 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 20:29:51 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WE
	DONE?
References: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <7xoel3hmts.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

"Paul McGuire" <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> writes:
> Please start giving some thought to what the 'decorate' keyword should be.

Looks like "declare" to me ;-)


From CousinStanley at HotMail.Com  Sun Aug 15 14:40:44 2004
From: CousinStanley at HotMail.Com (Cousin Stanley)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 11:40:44 -0700
Subject: Flython?
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121608180.11006-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<CISdnRTssu4zrYHcRVn-ow@powergate.ca>
	<2o3ovjF6apnoU1@uni-berlin.de> <2o4555F6dms6U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<poydnewN4dIdfIHcRVn-iA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <2o9op9F8a8ehU1@uni-berlin.de>

Daniel Ellison wrote ....

| ....
| A flying python! 
| I can see the logo now... 

Peter Hansen wrote .... 

| But does it have anything to do with scripting
| via ActionScript ?  
|
| As far as I can see it is purely a GUI tool 
| for doing simple animations, and does not allow any scripting.
 
Peter .... 

  Like Dan Ellison, I was also would like to see   
  a  Flying Python  and thought  PowerBullet  
  might provide a free and convenient mechanism 
  to help realize that vision .... 

  Apparently, a few others have also inquired about scripting
  capabilities in Powerbullet and a bit of searching at their
  on-line forum turned up the following replies from Mark Carter
  the author of Powerbullet .... 

Cousin Stanley
Human Being
Phoenix, Arizona

---------------------------------------------------------------

Source .......
http://www.powerbullet.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=243&highlight=actionscript
    
    Posted_By .... Mark Carter,
                 { Powerbullet Author }
                       
    Date ......... Sat Feb 07, 2004 3:30 am  
   
|| .... 
|| will actionscript work if I add it into the HTML code?
|| ....

    No. This is something for the future. 
 
    Not so hard to support actionscript, 
    I just haven't included it because PB 
    is aimed at non-programmers. 
 
    For navigation it's more likely 
    I'll include just low level Flash jumps.
     
    Perhaps later it might be a good idea 
    to put action scripts in the HTML 
    - but they won't work now because I don't parse them. 
    
    Not a bad idea though... let me think about it

    
Source ....... http://www.powerbullet.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=529
     
    Date ......... Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:13 pm    

    Next version, due for release in a fortnight, 
    has capability to pass messages from the SWF movie 
    to your web page. 
 
    So you can create a JavaScript function on your page 
    and call it from the Flash movie. 
   
    You do this using the existing URL link mechanism 
    for buttons or linked external SWF movies. 
 
    There are standard commands that can be directed 
    to Flash from JavaScript. 
   
See the Macromedia Flash site. 
 
    Built-in commands that you can call from your web page 
 
    http://www.macromedia.com/support/flash/publishexport/scriptingwithflash/scriptingwithflash_03.html 
        
Examples of calling (some quite silly) DHTML facilities 
 
    http://www.flashkit.com/tutorials/Interactivity/Flash_J-Chris_Pe-584/index.php





From BruceEckel at MailBlocks.com  Wed Aug  4 14:46:23 2004
From: BruceEckel at MailBlocks.com (Bruce Eckel)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 12:46:23 -0600
Subject: The term "Protocol"
In-Reply-To: <celk0m$b65$1@panix3.panix.com>
References: <pan.2004.07.31.12.27.23.547000@hotmail.com>
	<1f7befae04080117515cbb0ca9@mail.gmail.com>
	<6910338109.20040801192523@
	<mailman.1042.1091409923.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<celk0m$b65$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<393390620.20040804124623@MailBlocks.com>
Message-ID: <BruceEckel-0gMfsAdFyG0Etf1O1J53bqu4hxV3FZg@mailblocks.com>



Monday, August 2, 2004, 8:44:38 AM, Aahz wrote:

> Alex Martelli gave an excellent presentation on Design Patterns at OSCON,
> where he made the point that "interface" is roughly equivalent to syntax,
> whereas "protocol" is roughly equivalent to syntax plus semantics.  In
> other words, computer langauges rarely (if ever -- although I suppose
> Eiffel comes close) enforce protocols in any meaningful way.

But what would the syntax be in Python? -- there is none. Perhaps you
mean that in Java a protocol would be an interface plus agreed-upon
semantics, whereas in Python the protocol would be the agreed-upon
(e.g. "latent") interface plus the agreed-upon semantics. In a sense,
both the syntax and semantics would be latent; they would only be
exposed and tested during use, since there is no formalized way to
define them.

In Python, of course, you could simply use a class with "pass" methods
everywhere to define a protocol. If there were some way to write
assertions about the protocol you could include those in the class.

Bruce Eckel




From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Aug  3 07:17:14 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 13:17:14 +0200
Subject: automatic delegation
References: <HBF.20040803b8y6@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <cens7r$l22$03$1@news.t-online.com>

Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:

> Is it possible to write a metaclass or something so that
> with a class definition not much larger than this:
> 
>    class foo:
>       def __init__(self, val): self.val = val
> 
> operations on a foo instance f will be applied to f.val?
> E.g. str(f) -> f.__str__() -> f.val.__str__().

I tried in vain to solve your problem while improving my understanding of
metaclasses. I have made an observation that might interest you, though: 
str(foo()) and foo.__str__(foo()) are not the same:

>>> class Type(type):
...     def __getattribute__(self, name):
...             def tostr(self):
...                     return "so what"
...             return tostr
...
>>> class C:
...     __metaclass__ = Type
...
>>> print str(C())
<__main__.C object at 0x40296a8c>
>>> print C.__str__(C())
so what
>>>

Care to explain, anyone?

Peter





From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 23:40:14 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 03:40:14 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: function taking scalar or list argument
References: <412a2bce$1_1@127.0.0.1> <9ZCdnT9EuudK3bfcRVn-tA@comcast.com>
	<10il11q5uqfg4ad@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <loom.20040824T052140-517@post.gmane.org>

Jeff Shannon <jeff <at> ccvcorp.com> writes:
> Actually, I'd favor the try/except approach.  It's entirely reasonable 
> to think that, if this function might be passed either scalars or lists, 
> it may also be passed a non-list-based sequence object.  If you simply 
> try using map(), then it'll work correctly for any object that follows 
> the expected protocol, regardless of whether that object is (a subclass 
> of) list.  By explicitly demanding a list, you're needlessly limiting 
> the usefulness of the function.

Well, you can always test for the protocol, e.g.:

def twice(x):
    if hasattr(x, "__iter__"):
        return map(twice, x)
    else:
        return 2*x

It just seems like a misuse of the construct to me to treat the most frequent 
case as an exceptional one.  Note that the following solution (that doesn't 
recurse) wouldn't be unreasonable if you expected to pass mostly sequences to 
the function:

def twice(x):
    try:
        return map(lambda x: 2*x, x)
    except TypeError:
        return 2*x

The difference here is that we are now treating the sequence case as the 
simple case -- if we're dealing with a sequence, no exception handling is 
required.  So if the sequence case is substantially more frequent, this would 
be a perfectly reasonable solution.  (Note that the difference between this 
and the original solution is that this version does not recurse, so, unlike 
the original solution, this one will not throw an exception for every element 
in the sequence.)

Steve



From a at b.com  Mon Aug 16 03:12:45 2004
From: a at b.com (wonder)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:12:45 +0800
Subject: passing the url of the current webpage to python script
Message-ID: <cfpodq$1nt0$1@news.hgc.com.hk>

Hi,

How can I pass the url of the current webpage link to a python script in 
   html?

thanks
sam


From jeff_news at lindholm.org  Mon Aug 23 14:08:09 2004
From: jeff_news at lindholm.org (Jeff Lindholm)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 18:08:09 GMT
Subject: python usage
References: <c5ff5ef5.0408230346.5406b803@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <doqWc.5863$Y94.2908@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>

> Hi, One of my customer wants me to use Python as a test scripting
> language. The architecture is as follows: An C++/Java UI obtains all
> required inputs from the user and then makes call to Python script
> which inturns calls c++ client stubs. These stubs are CORBA stubs
> which talk to a CORBA server residing some where in the network.
> I want to know as to whether it is feasible to use Python or just live
> with c++ for UI and stubs?
> Is it good to use Python for this purpose? What is the advantage?
> Thanks
> Phanish

If all you are testing is the CORBA object, then go all Python, if you are 
using it to create a prototype or something, then use the language that is 
the final target. (if you can make the final target Python, great)
There is no reason to try and find a reason to use Python (or any language), 
if you are only using it to say "Look I used Python here" then it is 
probably the wrong choice. Going from C++/Java UI to Python back to C++/Java 
why put Python in the middle? I would guess that C++/Java to CORBA would be 
better if C++/Java was the requirement. If Python is the requirement then 
Python to CORBA would be better. 




From noone at here.com  Thu Aug 26 09:12:14 2004
From: noone at here.com (M. Clift)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:12:14 +0100
Subject: Dennis, Greg, Ian
References: <cgi2qq$rvp$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<cgi3ev$g6k$1@online.de><cgi5vc$m52$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<mailman.2391.1093473637.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgj95i$pl8$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<cgjk1q$1o4$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <1q8002-nal.ln1@suse.zobbo.org>
Message-ID: <cgknhe$pg3$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>

Hi to all of you,

Well that's a lot of 'stuff' you gave me. Thankyou.

I did understand that the brackets were not part of the list, but leaving
them that way (as tuples) I could see problems in trying to refer to them at
some stage. I was having no luck with what I was doing, ending up with just
being able to call the first item in each tuple. As I'm new to this, maybe I
don't actually need to do this in the long run for what I want, but for now
while I think that I do, these answers are exactly what I need.

All the best,

M




From noone at here.com  Fri Aug 20 11:22:10 2004
From: noone at here.com (M. Clift)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:22:10 +0100
Subject: Rita Sue and Bob too
References: <cg3ksb$bg5$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-310D02.09414120082004@localhost>
Message-ID: <cg54tb$26p$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>

If I wasn't happy enough already with the examples/ideas you've all shown
me, how about searching as previously, but where the middle name could be
anything. i.e. 'Rita', 'anyname','Bob'

M




From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Mon Aug 30 13:06:37 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 19:06:37 +0200
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>
	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>
	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>
	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>
	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>
	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>
	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>
	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>
	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>
	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org> <e69d3ed2040
	<eppstein-55AD8F.13583829082004@news.service.uci.edu>
	<mailman.2587.1093825876.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040830aznn@bombur.uio.no>

Paul Morrow wrote:
> I believe that we should think of assignments to __xxx__ attributes as 
> not being part of the function's body, but instead part of its 
> declaration, just as we do with its docstring.
> 
>     def circum(diameter):
>         """This describe's foo."""
>         __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'
>         __version__ = '0.1'
>         __features__ = synchronized, memoized

I really, really don't like this idea.  Assignment in Python has quite
enough pitfalls already.  Please don't make it worse.  If it looks like
an assignment to a local variable, it should be an assignment to a local
variable.  If we are going to invent a syntax for declaring function
attributes inside the function, why confuse the issue by making it look
like it does something else?

It's true that it makes it look more like what __*__ attribute
assignment in class bodies does, but the simple fact is that class
bodies are executed when the class statement is executed, and function
bodies are not executed when the def statement is executed.  Now you
want part of the function bodies to be executed at def time, and part at
call time.

__*__ assigments in class bodies can look a little confusing if you
don't think of how class declarations work, but it's perfectly simple
once you think of how they do work: Execute the class body - no magic
involved (as far as I know).  Then pass the resulting __dict__ to the
class creation machine - and _that_ recognizes __metaclass__, __slots__
and I don't know what else and does magic with them.

Once you remember that, __*__ variables in both class bodies and
function bodies do exactly what one would expect them to do.  Stronger
magic, like grabbing the doc string and putting it in __doc__, has its
own syntax.

-- 
Hallvard


From keir at mooncode.com  Wed Aug 25 12:18:54 2004
From: keir at mooncode.com (keirr)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 09:18:54 -0700
Subject: Compiling a custom python library
Message-ID: <cgie5e$hea@odak26.prod.google.com>

Henning Kage wrote:
> I'm writing a small Python library with some generic classes and
> interfaces, that can be used within other Python projects in our
company.
> Would it be a better solution to compile this library into a Python
DLL
> (and if so, how can it be done) or to distribute the "raw" sourcecode
of
> these classes etc.? What would be the best solution, so that other
> programmers can easily integrate this library into their own
programs?

You might find distutils will work for you,
read about it at http://www.python.org/sigs/distutils-sig/doc/

A 'dll' would work as well - but you loose cross platform
support.

Cheers,

 Keir Robinson.



From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 30 18:22:04 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 18:22:04 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <HBF.20040830aznn@bombur.uio.no>
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<e69d3ed2040 <HBF.20040830aznn@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <ch09aa$1lj$1@sea.gmane.org>

Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:

> Paul Morrow wrote:
> 
>>I believe that we should think of assignments to __xxx__ attributes as 
>>not being part of the function's body, but instead part of its 
>>declaration, just as we do with its docstring.
>>
>>    def circum(diameter):
>>        """This describe's foo."""
>>        __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'
>>        __version__ = '0.1'
>>        __features__ = synchronized, memoized
> 
> 
> I really, really don't like this idea.  Assignment in Python has quite
> enough pitfalls already.  Please don't make it worse.  If it looks like
> an assignment to a local variable, it should be an assignment to a local
> variable.  

Actually, these look like assignments to local *magic* variables.
There's the difference.  The double underscores before and after each
name loudly proclaims that these variables are not like 'normal'
variables.  They're special in some way.  That's a Python convention.


> If we are going to invent a syntax for declaring function
> attributes inside the function, why confuse the issue by making it look
> like it does something else?
> 

Because 1) adding new syntax should be resisted as much as possible
(IMO), and 2) this style has parallels in both class definitions and 
module definitions.  Compare this class statement with the function def 
above.

     class Oval(Circle):
         """This describe's Oval."""
         __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'
         __version__ = '0.1'
         __metaclass__ = M


> It's true that it makes it look more like what __*__ attribute
> assignment in class bodies does, but the simple fact is that class
> bodies are executed when the class statement is executed, and function
> bodies are not executed when the def statement is executed.  Now you
> want part of the function bodies to be executed at def time, and part at
> call time.
> 

Maybe we just need to be clear as to which lines under the def statement
constitute the function's /body/.  The function's docstring gets
assigned during processing of the def statement, therefore the docstring
is apparently not part of the function body; I think of it as part of
the function's declaration.  So why not have assignments to __xxx__
variables also be part of the function's declaration.  The distinctive
appearance of these names helps remind us that they have special semantics.

And note that if __xxx__ variables/attributes inside of function defs 
*don't* have special semantics (i.e. if they are being used as normal 
local variables), then they are improperly named (in accordance with our 
naming conventions).

> __*__ assigments in class bodies can look a little confusing if you
> don't think of how class declarations work, but it's perfectly simple
> once you think of how they do work: Execute the class body - no magic
> involved (as far as I know).  Then pass the resulting __dict__ to the
> class creation machine - and _that_ recognizes __metaclass__, __slots__
> and I don't know what else and does magic with them.
> 
> Once you remember that, __*__ variables in both class bodies and
> function bodies do exactly what one would expect them to do.  Stronger
> magic, like grabbing the doc string and putting it in __doc__, has its
> own syntax.
> 

Perhaps its just my experience with declarative programming languages,
but I prefer thinking of __xxx__ assignments in a class as setting
'properties' of the class.  It's a higher level of abstraction than
thinking in terms of the procedural mechanics of what happens under the
hood.  And the syntax used to set properties in classes/modules should 
be the same one used to set properties in functions and methods (IMO).

Paul






From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Wed Aug 18 16:00:47 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 13:00:47 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <10i7da3cu03eabb@corp.supernews.com>

I'm 35, and have been programming off and on (more off than on) since I 
was about 11. 

First program was in Basic on a TRS-80, quickly moved on to Apple //e; 
didn't program at all in high school, took a "programming for engineers" 
course in college (Basic & Fortran), then after college decided to teach 
myself C.  Another break of some years before I bought myself a (used) 
386 PC, and resumed dabbling in C, then C++.  At this point (about 8 
years ago) I became hooked, and started devouring all the programming 
and software engineering/design books I could get from the library.  
Once my job started including coding (mostly [Pick] Basic & UHL, a 
proprietary [and horribly ugly & evil] scripting language), I decided to 
pick up Python (based largely on a Dr. Dobbs Journal Programmer of the 
Year award to Gvr, and the article about him and Python they published 
then) and never want to look back. :)

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From b.niemann at betternet.de  Mon Aug 30 03:35:05 2004
From: b.niemann at betternet.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:35:05 +0200
Subject: initializing mutable class attributes
In-Reply-To: <J4zYc.102357$UTP.98636@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
References: <J4zYc.102357$UTP.98636@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
Message-ID: <cgul4v$h1d$1@online.de>

That's the way it is supposed to work. Instance attributes have to be 
initialized via self.foo=..., usually in __init__() which in turn is 
*STRONGLY* advised to class its parents __init__() - or you create 
instance attributes 'on-the-fly' when they are used for the first time 
(useful technique for mixin classes without constructor). Class 
attributes are initialized once for the class and are shared between 
instances.
"self.attr1=data" in Father.foo() doesn't "override" the Father.attr1 
attribute you defined before. It creates an instance attribute that 
shadows Father.attr1!
Both attribute assignments in Father are OK - if you treat them as class 
attributes. They won't become instance attributes by hidden magic.

Dan Perl wrote:
> There is something with initializing mutable class attributes that I am
> struggling with.  I'll use an example to explain:
>     class Father:
>         attr1=None   # this is OK
>         attr2=[ ]        # this is wrong
>         def foo(self, data):
>             self.attr1=data
>             self.attr2.append(data)
> The initialization of attr1 is obviously OK, all instances of Father
> redefine it in the method foo.  But the initialization of attr2 is wrong
> because all the instances of Father end up sharing the same value.  Maybe
> that is desired sometimes, but usually it is just a bug.
> 
> So the only solution I see to this is to initialize attr2 in __init__:
>     class Father:
>         attr1=None
>         def __init__(self):
>             self.attr2=[ ]
> 
> This is already awkward because there is such a difference between attr1 and
> attr2.  But moreover, I think this forces subclasses of Father to do
> something like this:
>     class Child (Father):
>         def __init__(self):
>             Father.__init__(self)
>             self.attr3=[ ]
> 
> I find this even more awkward because many people will forget to do it.
> Clearly, this is then a more general issue with __init__, but I think it is
> accentuated by the fact that you HAVE TO HAVE __init__ in order to
> initialize attributes that are mutable.
> 
> Is there something I don't know here and there is a better way to do this in
> Python?  I would like to get a better solution or otherwise start a
> discussion.



From usenet_spam at janc.invalid  Tue Aug 24 19:33:33 2004
From: usenet_spam at janc.invalid (JanC)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:33:33 GMT
Subject: On consensus decision-making (was Re: Alternative decorator
	syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WEDONE?)
References: <CsmdnSOL1aXP3LfcRVn-vg@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.2259.1093320891.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<tZOdnSEokOGcWrfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.2264.1093325033.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Xns9550FD948E79JanC@213.118.38.197>

Anthony Baxter schreef:

> (Of course, there's also my cunning plot to use this particular issue
> to get a couple more people involved in Python's development process -
> we now have at least one person who's obviously a good person to write
> up future PEPs, and another who's now delved into Python's innards in
> a non-trivial way.... moohahaha)

As Guido told you to implement/include(?) the @-syntax, maybe that was also 
_his_ secret plot: the fact that so many people seem to hate it almost 
forced them to become Python core developers...   ;-)

-- 
JanC

"Be strict when sending and tolerant when receiving."
RFC 1958 - Architectural Principles of the Internet - section 3.9


From jepler at unpythonic.net  Sun Aug 29 22:42:46 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 21:42:46 -0500
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <cgtsbi$7en$2@sea.gmane.org>
References: <e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>
	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>
	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<eppstein-55AD8F.13583829082004@news.service.uci.edu>
	<cgtsbi$7en$2@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20040830024246.GA2159@unpythonic.net>

In your proposed model, what does the following code do?
    def f():
        __var__ = 3
        return __var__
    f.__var__ += 1
    print f()

What about any of the following:
    def g():
        if True:
            __var__ = 4
    print g.__var__

    x = 3
    def h(x):
        __var__ = x*x
        return x*x
    print h(2), h.__var__

    def j(cls):
        def __radd__(self, other):
            return self.__add__(other)
        cls.__radd__ = __radd__

    def k(x):
        __created__ = Date(1, 1, 2004)
        __expires__ = __created__ + Interval("1 year")

    def l(x):
        __now__ = time.time()
        return __now__
    print l.__now__, l()

    x = 3
    def m():
        __x__ = x
        return __x__
    x = 4
    print m(), m.__x__

    def n(f, a):
        __doc__ = gettext.gettext(f.__doc__)
        __author__ = a.replace("@", " AT ").replace(".", " DOT ")
        l = locals()
        del l['f'], l['d'], l['a'], l['l']
        f.__dict__.__update__(l)

    def p():
        import os as __os__

    def q(): # BUG x doesn't get the proper metaclass in 2.3!
        class __metaclass__(type): pass
        class x: pass
        # assert x's metaclass is __metaclass__

I gave it a few minutes thought, and I can't figure out a simple rule
that would *not* break code that happened to use __name__s as function
locals (since this has been allowed in all the ten years I've written
Python programs), would not add a new level of name lookup (lookup of
unqualified name on function object), would not introduce confusion
about when lines of code *in the function body* would be evaluated,
would not require that assignment statements be treated differently from
"def", "class", and "__import__" statements, etc, etc.

If you clear some or all of these things up, and turn it into a complete
proposal, wake me up.

Jeff
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From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Aug 31 11:08:06 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:08:06 +0200
Subject: Splitting a list
References: <41A1CBC76FDECC42B67946519C6677A9018C2F6B@pippin.int.etrials.com>
	<mailman.2674.1093961508.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ch248m$dro$06$1@news.t-online.com>

Jeff Epler wrote:

> Here's my version as a generator function:
>     def split(it, elem):
>         l = []
>         for i in it:
>             if i == elem:
>                 yield l
>                 l = []
>             else:
>                 l.append(i)
>         yield l
> 

A clean algorithm, but it has one corner case that strikes me as
counterintuitive:

>>> list(split([], None))
[[]]

I would prefer [], so I cross-checked with str.split():

>>> "".split()
[]
>>> "".split("x")
['']

Strange. Is that by design or by accident?

Peter




From pje at telecommunity.com  Sat Aug 14 15:02:30 2004
From: pje at telecommunity.com (Phillip J. Eby)
Date: 14 Aug 2004 12:02:30 -0700
Subject: decorators and multimethods
References: <4edc17eb.0408062340.71ab270f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <25b5433d.0408141102.3c77560a@posting.google.com>

michele.simionato at gmail.com (Michele Simionato) wrote in message news:<4edc17eb.0408062340.71ab270f at posting.google.com>...
> 
> One trick is to use decorators to implement multimethods. A while ago
> Howard Stearns posted here a recipe to implement generic functions
> a.k.a multimethods.
> 
> I have not studied his recipe, so don't ask me how it works. All I
> did was to add an "addmethod" function and save his code in a module
> called genericfunctions.
> 
> Decorators allowed me to use the following syntax:
> 
> # BEGIN generic functions in Python, example
> # use code and examples from Howard Stearns
> 
> from genericfunctions import Generic_Function, addmethod
> 
> foo = Generic_Function()
> 
> @addmethod(object, object, object)
> def foo(_, x, y, z):
>     return 'default'
> 
> @addmethod(int, int, int)
> def foo(call_next, x, y, z): 
>     return 'all ints , ' + call_next(x, y, z)
> 
> @addmethod(object, object)
> def foo( _, x, y):
>     return 'just two'

FYI, there's another example of this approach available in PyProtocols
CVS; see:

   http://www.eby-sarna.com/pipermail/peak/2004-July/001598.html

It uses this syntax:

    from protocols.dispatch import when, next_method
    [when("True")]
    def foo(x,y,z):
        return "default"

    [when("x in int and y in int and z in int")]
    def foo(x,y,z):
        return "all ints, "+next_method(x,y,z)

but will work with Python 2.2.2 and up.  It also allows arbitrary
expressions to be used to distinguish multimethod cases, not just type
information, but still optimizes them to table lookups.  It doesn't
support variadic or default arguments yet, though.


From donn at drizzle.com  Sat Aug 21 23:15:27 2004
From: donn at drizzle.com (Donn Cave)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 03:15:27 -0000
Subject: popen child termination
References: <mailman.2102.1093084089.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1093144525.282797@yasure>

Quoth Milos Prudek <prudek at bvx.cz>:
| How can I make popen (popen2, popen3) run and finish inside my program?
|
| Example:
|
| def Run(cmd):
|      w,r,e = os.popen3(cmd)
|      w.close()
|      r.close()
|      e.close()
| Run('touch ~/xxx')
| os.remove('~/xxx')
|
| The example above fails with this error message for os.remove: "No such 
| file or directory: '~/xxx'"
|
| But when the os.remove line is deleted, the example correctly creates 
| the xxx file.
|
| I feel that os.wait() deals with this but I do not understand how to use 
| it to do what I want.

You're right, but you're going to have to back up a little and
do the popen part a little different.

popen() itself is simpler, because the wait() is built into the 
pclose(3) function that's called by the close() method.  You will
find that it returns exit status, except when exit status is 0 in
which case it returns None.  (Did that make sense?  I hope not.)

As for popen3(), you will need to instead create the Popen3 instance
that popen3 creates.  Then you can invoke its wait() method.  There
isn't any way to get there from just the file objects that popen3()
returns.

	Donn Cave, donn at drizzle.com


From shalabh at cafepy.com  Fri Aug  6 18:41:06 2004
From: shalabh at cafepy.com (Shalabh Chaturvedi)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 15:41:06 -0700
Subject: Confused about pep 318
In-Reply-To: <HrmdnaZrl6la4Y_cRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>	<mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org>	<d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>	<mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051249050.10473-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>	<mailman.1210.1091725930.5135.python-list@python.org>	<e86dnZBJM6_n84_cRVn-jA@powergate.ca>	<mailman.1214.1091727520.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HrmdnaZrl6la4Y_cRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <cf11bn$tmt$1@sea.gmane.org>

Peter Hansen wrote:

> I'm also surprised that the choice which had the greatest public
> support during the straw poll at PyCon isn't still under discussion,

I doubt any of the following would have made it in Python had it 
followed the course of 'greatest public support':

1. Whitespace based blocks
2. Docstrings

Looking back, I remember when I started out with Python I had a "Eeww, 
what's this!?" reaction to both of the above, very similar to what I 
initially felt for @-decorator. After using it in my code I find it's 
actually not bad at all. I'd prefer to use the '|' character for 
aesthetics but am happy with @ as well.

Cheers,
Shalabh



From mwh at python.net  Mon Aug 23 11:24:03 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:24:03 GMT
Subject: __name__ becoming read-write?
References: <uutji0h87t24cb1nej03gdggs0hg6eno3l@4ax.com>
	<HBF.20040823p9l@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <m3y8k5j2st.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Hallvard B Furuseth <h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no> writes:

> Arthur wrote:
> 
> > Did I hallucinate something about __name__ becoming read-write?
> 
> _Becoming_ read-write?  When was it read-only?

When it was a function :-)  Or a new style class in 2.2.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  I never disputed the Perl hacking skill of the Slashdot creators. 
  My objections are to the editors' taste, the site's ugly visual 
  design, and the Slashdot community's raging stupidity.
     -- http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/klee/misc/slashdot.html#faq


From jlbgnews at houseofdistraction.com  Thu Aug 26 15:01:50 2004
From: jlbgnews at houseofdistraction.com (Jeff Bowden)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 12:01:50 -0700
Subject: Making sgmlib more liberal
Message-ID: <14b59724.0408261101.7cdb0ba5@posting.google.com>

I've written a simple class derived from sgmllib.SGMLParser to extract
text from html pages.  So far it's worked pretty well except for a few
cases where I get exceptions.  I've managed to work around these
problems by overriding parse_declaration.

Since parse_declaration is preceded by the comment 

    # Internal -- parse declaration (for use by subclasses).

I am thinking my workaround might possibly stop working with future
versions of sgmllib so I'm looking for a more correct alternative. 
Any suggestions?

Here's my code:

_endTag = re.compile(r'>')

class SGML2TextParser(sgmllib.SGMLParser):
    def __init__(self, f, ignoretags=['script']):
        sgmllib.SGMLParser.__init__(self)
        self.f = f
        self.ignoretags = ignoretags
        self.tag = ''

    def handle_starttag(self, tag, attrs):
        self.tag = tag

    def handle_data(self, data):
        if self.tag not in self.ignoretags:
            self.f.write(data)

    def handle_charref(self, name):
        try:
            n = int(name)
            self.handle_data(unichr(n))
        except ValueError:
            pass

    # DANGER: overriding internal function
    def parse_declaration(self, i):  
        try:
            return sgmllib.SGMLParser.parse_declaration(self, i)
        except:
            match = _endTag.search(self.rawdata, i)
            return match and match.end(0) or -1

def extractText(html_text):
    s = StringIO.StringIO()
    x = SGML2TextParser(s)
    x.feed(html_text)
    return s.getvalue()


From records2010 at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  3 22:31:17 2004
From: records2010 at yahoo.com (Chris)
Date: 3 Aug 2004 19:31:17 -0700
Subject: file IO
References: <cemnlj$cd1$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>	<cempg2$d1e$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<mailman.1080.1091500509.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <273c21f2.0408031831.9e50d70@posting.google.com>

Jeff Epler <jepler at unpythonic.net> wrote in message news:<mailman.1080.1091500509.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> Are you using Windows?  That would mean the answer is almost certainly
> "something to do with carriage returns and binary vs text mode".  The
> lack of a trailing newline on the last line of your example can also
> make for additional trouble (though my tests on unix, with stdio, mmap,
> and StringIO didn't ever give me a 4-byte file, windows might give you
> the file "a\r\nb" when viewed in binary format, "a\nb" when viewed in
> text format)
> 
> I doubt that the mmap module's readline knows whether the file was
> opened in universal text mode---that's a pure Python invention, while
> mmap takes a file descriptor.
> 
> On Unix, I don't find that a "while" loop with mmap.readline is any
> faster than a "for" loop over a file:
> 
> [45426 lines, 409305 bytes]
> $ timeit -s "..." "readspeed.read_stdio('/usr/share/dict/words')"
> 10 loops, best of 3: 34.9 msec per loop
> $ timeit -s "..." "readspeed.read_mmap('/usr/share/dict/words')"
> 10 loops, best of 3: 107 msec per loop
> 
> [363416 lines, 3274440 bytes]
> $ time python -c "import readspeed; readspeed.read_stdio('biggerfile.txt')"
> real 0.372s  user 0.331s  sys 0.031s
> $ time python -c "import readspeed; readspeed.read_mmap('biggerfile.txt')"
> real 1.080s  user 1.013s  sys 0.021s
> 
> [2907328 lines, 26195520 bytes]
> $ time python -c "import readspeed; readspeed.read_stdio('biggerfile.txt')"
> real 2.603s  user 2.308s  sys 0.157s
> $ time python -c "import readspeed; readspeed.read_mmap('biggerfile.txt')"
> real 8.514s  user 7.893s  sys 0.153s
> 
> I didn't have any "bigger-than-RAM text files" around to test.
> 
> Testing "biggerfile.txt" with mode "rU" gives real 3.110s, so there is
> some penalty from using universal newlines.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> # readspeed.py
> from mmap import mmap, PROT_READ
> import itertools, os
> 
> def consume(iterable):
>     for j in iterable: pass
> 
> def read_stdio(filename):
>     f = open(filename) # open(filename, "rU") is slightly slower
>     consume(f)
> 
> def read_mmap(filename):
>     f = open(filename)
>     fd = f.fileno()
>     m = mmap(fd, os.fstat(fd).st_size, prot=PROT_READ)
>     while 1:
>         if not m.readline(): break
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> --


I've come across this in C, now that I'm forced to work under XP 
(Thank you, Cygwin!)

Open the file 'rb' or 'r+b' and you avoid the entire issue of newlines.


From modify  Mon Aug  2 21:39:46 2004
From: modify (Richard Hilburger)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 18:39:46 -0700
Subject: flowcharting is automatic for Python via preprocessor
References: <mailman.1069.1091487166.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cemr28019im@enews2.newsguy.com>

As I read your comments, I found myself agreeing with each point.  I feel
that your analysis is quite good.  I get the drift of your example at
http://oregonstate.edu/~barnesc/temp/flow.pdf   Well done.  My detailed flow
diagram is indeed "visually busy".  After all, it shows every path leaving
no room for misinterpretation.  Your diagram method is like a shorthand
version of my diagram method.  Cleaner in appearance, but requiring more
skill and experience to read it correctly.  A tool such as the preprocessor
I developed could easily have either a command-line flag or a user setting
to let the user choose either detailed or less-detailed flow diagrams.

Integration into a code editor is indeed a worthy goal, and if done well
would very likely improve the appeal of any such methodology.  I had thought
of it, but decided to take an easier approach to test the water first.

Do other editors do this?  I don't know what is out there.  Neil posted:
http://www.eng.auburn.edu/grasp/index.html and I'll have to take a closer
look at that.  At first glance, it looks confusing and unappealing.


<barnesc at onid.orst.edu> wrote in message
news:mailman.1069.1091487166.5135.python-list at python.org...
>
> I like your idea.
>
> It is easy to get lost inside in eg a multiply nested if statement in a
couple
> multiply nested for loops, inside a try block.
>
> Sometimes one can split such code into separate functions, and this makes
the
> code cleaner.  Sometimes not.
>
> However, the real issue is how the eye parses code.
>
> It's really inefficient to scan a whole page of code line by line to
understand
> where loops, branches, continues, and breaks occur.
>
> I think your visual diagrams could help, if they are:
>
> 1. Semantically cleaner.
>    IMO, there is too much detail in the flow diagrams.
>    (See http://www.getcet.org/images/ex3.png).
>
>    A minimal amount of detail is easier to parse with the eye.
>
>    See http://oregonstate.edu/~barnesc/temp/flow.pdf for a cleaner
>    example I came up with.  This doesn't have arrows all over the
>    place (and hence may not be a flow diagram), but it does help
>    point out the relevant control structures.
>
> 2. Integrated into a code editor.
>
>    I could see this being a new code editor fad, like collapsable
>    functions and classes.
>
>    It could be quite useful, if the amount of visual information
>    is kept minimal, so that the coder is not distracted during
>    coding.
>
>    If the flow diagrams are not integrated into an editor, I don't
>    think many coders will use them.
>
> Perhaps editors already do this.
>
>  - Connelly




From martindemello at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 25 06:27:51 2004
From: martindemello at yahoo.com (Martin DeMello)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:27:51 GMT
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>

Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:26:26 GMT, Martin DeMello
> <martindemello at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > It seems to be a fairly common pattern for an object-modifying method to
> > return None - however, this is often quite inconvenient.
> 
> list.reverse() modifies the list in place. The python idiom is that
> these don't return a reference to the modified list. Although note the

Yes, but why? I mean, is there either an advantage to returning None or
some inherent danger in returning self?

martin


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Wed Aug 11 08:38:38 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:38:38 -0400
Subject: Executing bytecode from a string.
References: <pan.2004.08.11.07.18.32.690395@proteus-tech.com>
Message-ID: <10hk4q68cie6815@news.supernews.com>


"Benjamin Scherrey" <scherrey at proteus-tech.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.08.11.07.18.32.690395 at proteus-tech.com...
> I'm curious as to how difficult it would be to take a string that contains
> compiled bytecode, load it into memory, give it a function name then
> execute that function. I'm thinking of a database that contains compiled
> objects that I can load and execute. I'm also curious as to what level of
> grainularity this would work - module, class, class method, function?
> Anyone tried to do this before? Obviously dependencies are a consideration
> but I'm more interested in the mechanics of this. Appreciate ideas &
> pointers you might have...
>
> Ben Scherrey

Look at the 'new' module. It's in the Library Reference under
Python Runtime Services. You'll need to wrap the byte string
with 'code', and then wrap that with 'function'.

As someone else pointed out, there are a number of other
parameters you'll need to supply, and some of them aren't
at all obvious. You may find the disassembler (documented
under Python language services) to be helpful in figuring
some of them out.

John Roth




From irmen at -nospam-remove-this-xs4all.nl  Thu Aug  5 08:06:47 2004
From: irmen at -nospam-remove-this-xs4all.nl (Irmen de Jong)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 14:06:47 +0200
Subject: Scope Problem
In-Reply-To: <cet6eh$tvq$1@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <cet6eh$tvq$1@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <411222d7$0$65124$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>

Nickolay Kolev wrote:
> I have however encountered a strange (for me anyway) scoping problem.

This has nothing to do with scoping.

> Here is my implementation of linear search as a method in a class, hence 
> all the self's (self.sequence is the sorted sequence we are searching in 
> and value is, well, the value we are searching for):
> 
> def linearSearch(self, value, index = None):
> 
>         if not index:
>             index = 0
>         try:
>             if self.sequence[index] == value:
>                 return index
>             else:
>                 self.linearSearch(value, index + 1)
In this line, you don't return a value from the recursive call.
Change it to:
                   return self.linearSearch(value, index + 1)

>         except IndexError:
>              return -1

The algorithm should now work, although it is very inefficient.
Now, you're learning Python, so it's probably good to point
out that a containment test is usually done like so:

	if value in sequence: ...

If you want to have the index:

	idx = sequence.index(value)

And for quick (much quicker than linear) search in a sorted sequence,
have a look at the bisect module etc:
http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/54159

Good luck!
--Irmen


From no-mail-please at nospam.com  Mon Aug 30 17:10:20 2004
From: no-mail-please at nospam.com (Robert Oschler)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 17:10:20 -0400
Subject: Upgrading to 2.3 from 2.2, questions
Message-ID: <gOGdnchgidt_N67cRVn-uA@adelphia.com>

Hello,

(Note: if there is a FAQ that covers this issue just give me the URL.  I
checked python.org's General and Windows FAQ's and didn't see anything.)

I am about to upgrade from Python 2.2 to 2.3.  Here are a few questions:

- Do I need to uninstall 2.2 first?
- Are there any paths I should add to my Win 2k PATH environment variable?
- I am running on Windows 2000 and I have several site-packages installed.
These were installed using individual one-click installation programs (thank
you module writers).  Do I need to rerun each of the installations again,
after I upgrade?  Or, is there a directory or two I can simply copy over?
- Anything I should do before upgrading to preserve my current setup, or
other caveats?

Thanks.




From walter at livinglogic.de  Mon Aug  9 15:47:40 2004
From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 21:47:40 +0200
Subject: Parsing broken HTML via Mozilla
Message-ID: <4117D4DC.1030503@livinglogic.de>

Hello all!

I'm trying to parse broken HTML with several Python tools.
Unfortunately none of them work 100% reliable. Problems are
e.g. nested comments, bare "&" in URLs and "<" in text (e.g.
"if foo < bar") etc.

All of these pages can be displayed properly in a browser
so why not reuse the parser in e.g. Mozilla? Is there any
way to get proper XML out of Mozilla? Calling mozilla on the
command line would be OK, but it would be better if I could
use Mozilla like a SAX parser. Is there any project that
provides this functionality?

Bye,
    Walter D?rwald




From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Fri Aug 27 02:41:06 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:41:06 +1000
Subject: print question - character representation
Message-ID: <1093588866.412ed78296d19@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

i am calculating a digest of some data (using hmac) and printing it to a
cookie. the problem is the hash may contain special characters. when these
are printed they get converted to \<number> representation.
later when i receive the cookie i recalculate the hmac and do a comparison
which returns false because of the conversion when writing to a cookie

q - how do i stop the conversion from happening? if i cant then how can i
convert the hmac i recalculate on receiving the cookie to the same
representation as the one printed

thanks

cheers





----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From amk at amk.ca  Thu Aug  5 10:29:26 2004
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 09:29:26 -0500
Subject: Decorator syntax (was Re: PEP 318 - PyFIT comments)
References: <mailman.1162.1091660561.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnch2rs1.6ei.ressler@cheetah.jpl.nasa.gov>
	<1646998998.20040804190026@MailBlocks.com>
	<mailman.1168.1091667628.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<10h34ivio5s2c21@news.supernews.com>
	<m3pt65g4hb.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
	<10h4c5iicgv7k74@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <jaWdnWcZkabb2Y_cRVn-vQ@speakeasy.net>

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:06:01 -0400, 
	John Roth <newsgroups at jhrothjr.com> wrote:
> That was basically my comment about ctypes. AMK's
> blog entry referenced the ctype's documentation page,

Heller's post (at 
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045139.html) wasn't
very informative, either; I assume ctypes needs to do 'func =
something_or_other(func)' as PyObjC does currently.

--amk


From dave at pythonapocrypha.com  Tue Aug 24 21:27:47 2004
From: dave at pythonapocrypha.com (Dave Brueck)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:27:47 -0600
Subject: J2 0-2-6 is available
In-Reply-To: <RIRWc.6401$D7.5685@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E52@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>	<mailman.2310.1093386985.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<RIRWc.6401$D7.5685@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <412BEB13.9050205@pythonapocrypha.com>

Neil Hodgson wrote:

>    I'd like to dissent on "using". To me, this code does not read well.
> 
> using:
>     classmethod
> def foo(cls):
>     pass
> 
>    foo *is* a class method, it is not *using* a class method.

I hadn't thought of it that way before - as 'foo' the one doing the 
using. Instead I read it as the programmer/language is using the 
decorators in the process of defining foo - they're sort of tools being 
used in the construction of the method.

I'm +0 on 'using' as the keyword and -1 on most of the alternates. :)

-Dave


From mwh at python.net  Tue Aug 17 12:50:36 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:50:36 GMT
Subject: Flython
References: <slrnchq8lg.q3d.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
	<mailman.1644.1092461737.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408140153500.21775-100000@ccc2.wpi.edu>
	<m3llgfmhca.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408161041590.8576-100000@ccc3.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <m33c2ln1yc.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Christopher T King <squirrel at WPI.EDU> writes:

> On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, Michael Hudson wrote:
> 
> > Christopher T King <squirrel at WPI.EDU> writes:
> > 
> > > (Unfortunately, AST trees don't match up exactly with Python grammar, so 
> > > I'm having to learn the format by trial-and-error.  Not much fun.  Is 
> > > there documentation on the AST forms anywhere?)
> > 
> > Which AST are you talking about?
> 
> Whatever is spit out by parser.suite().  

Ah.  This isn't, in any sense, an ABSTRACT syntax tree, despite what
bits and pieces of the documentation say, or at least used to say.

You'll almost certainly have a better time using the output of
Lib/compiler/transformer.py.

> Things like grammar.txt's "statement" being represented symbol.stmt,
> and grammar.txt's stmt_list not existing at all in the AST trees
> (though most/all of the other _lists exist).

As Terry said, grammar.txt is documentation only...

> > Which version of Python, etc?
> 
> 2.3.  I'm using http://docs.python.org/ref/grammar.txt as my grammar 
> reference.

Grammar/Grammar in the source is much more accurate, but really, you
want to use compiler.transformer.

compiler.transformer spits out classes defined in compiler.ast, which
*claims* to be autogenerated from Tools/compiler/ast.txt, but I'm not
sure if that's actually the case any more.

Even without documentation, they are easier to work out than the raw
output of the parser module.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  "Also, does the simple algorithm you used in Cyclops have a name?"
  "Not officially, but it answers to "hey, dumb-ass!"
                       -- Neil Schemenauer and Tim Peters, 23 Feb 2001


From me at privacy.net  Wed Aug 18 13:20:21 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Dan Sommers)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 13:20:21 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
References: <mailman.1834.1092791633.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<m2vffgd6pu.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
	<mailman.1858.1092832530.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m2isbgcqi2.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 08:35:21 -0400,
Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dan Sommers wrote:

>> In the face of ambiguity, refuse to guess.
>> Explicit is better than implicit.

> Good conventions prevent ambiguity.

>     class Foo:
>        def method1(self, a, b): pass       # clearly an instance method
>        def method2(cls, a, b): pass        # clearly a class method
>        def method3(a, b): pass             # clearly a static method

    class Bar:
        def method4( _, b ): pass            # clearly a method
        def method5( klass, b ): pass        # clearly something else
        def method6( uovo, b ): pass         # clearly an Italian program(mer)

> When declarations conflict with conventions, it makes us wonder what
> the author really intended.

I agree completely.  I have often noted that when a comment doesn't
match the code, they are *both* wrong.

If we wonder what the author intended, what should Python do?

>> 
>> I think that the idea that started this thread is just right:
>> 

> You're right, this thread is about decorators, not about more
> opportunities for dynamic typing.  I just wanted to remind us that
> decorators are a lot like static typing, which isn't terribly
> pythonic.

I readily admit that my background is static typing:  BASIC, FORTRAN,
assembly, C, etc.; my (arguably na?ve) lisp and Python programs are
devoid of most of the dynamic typing I see here on c.l.p.  OTOH, does
anyone want/need "dynamic decorators"?  Is there a real use case for
code like this?

    class C:
        def m( self ): pass
        m = decorate( m )

    decorate = some_function
    c1 = C( )

    decorate = another_function
    c2 = C( )

Regards,
Dan

-- 
Dan Sommers
<http://www.tombstonezero.net/dan/>
Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.


From peufeu at free.fr  Wed Aug 25 04:50:38 2004
From: peufeu at free.fr (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Pierre-Fr=E9d=E9ric_Caillaud?=)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:50:38 +0200
Subject: How big can a Python program be?
References: <903b3fba.0408170333.49ce3944@posting.google.com>
	<DZKdnWOMArY6ZrzcRVn-rw@powergate.ca>
	<903b3fba.0408180655.6a23aede@posting.google.com>
	<lanfv1-n9v.ln1@lairds.us>
Message-ID: <opsc95ioq61v4ijd@musicbox>


	Simple answer :
	If you don't do it in Python, it'll be twice as big.

	Think about the size of Python's library.
	What kind of projetc is it ?

> Several of us have experience working with Python projects
> which occupy hundreds of thousands of lines.



From justin__devine at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 10 10:42:57 2004
From: justin__devine at hotmail.com (JDevine)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 07:42:57 -0700
Subject: Thread for a newbie
Message-ID: <f9d01b73.0408100642.67255b58@posting.google.com>

Hi.  I have just finished my first python program. Unfortunately
threading has me stumped.  I think this is mostly because the
wx.thread example demo is very complex, with all the grahphics,
graphs, and draw functions.  I want to do something very simple.  My
program downloads files over HTTP, I want to instantiate a process
dialog that tracks the download.  I already have access to the
expected size of each file through other functions in my program, I
also assume an os.foo is capable of getting the current size as the
file grows as it is downloaded.  My issue is keeping the file
downloading WHILE it is being tracked by the process dialog.  Please
help with any simple thread examples you might have, if this example
includes a dialog even better.
Thanks for any help you can provide.

-Justin
Justin__Devine at hotmail.com thanks


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Fri Aug 13 11:03:28 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:03:28 GMT
Subject: Idea for alternative use for @
Message-ID: <4L4Tc.6967$nu2.3787@fe2.texas.rr.com>

I was just reading over Mark Lutz's excellent article on OnLamp, titled
"When Pythons Attack -
Common Mistakes of Python Programmers"
(http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/python/2004/02/05/learn_python.html).  One of
the common pitfalls he cites is the mixing of spaces and tabs, and how this
is not always reliable since tabs can be handled differently in different
platforms and editors.

I thought it might be useful to include some sort of compiler directive like
a C++ pragma to represent this kind of compile-time meta information.  And
it struck me that '@' would be an excellent marker for such a statement,
something like:
@tabsize 8

It clearly marks the statement as some sort of non-Python information.  It
could be used for any number of compiler information items, such as module
include paths, macro definitions, debug levels, command switches, version
limitations (@min_version 2.3.4).

I guess this still does not address the conflict with tools such as Leo that
already use '@' for internal code markup purposes, tho.  I know '$' is also
available, but '@' just looks better to me for this purpose.

-- Paul

Vote for J2.  Keep Python Beautiful.




From mwh at python.net  Thu Aug 12 07:08:59 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:08:59 GMT
Subject: ImportError: dynamic module does not define init
 function(initmymodule)
References: <494182a9.0408111511.687d6371@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <m3hdr8obp1.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

balaji at email.arizona.edu (Balaji) writes:

> I have an c++ header file.
> 
> //some_class.h
> 
> #ifndef _SOME_CLASS_H_
> #define _SOME_CLASS_H_
> 
> class SomeClass
> {
> public:
> 	int sqr(int a);
> };
> #endif //_SOME_CLASS_H_
> 
> and I have an definition file some_class.C
> 
> //some_class.C
> 
> #include "some_class.h"
> 
> 
> int SomeClass::sqr(int a){
> 	return a*a;
> }
> And I have an interface file
> %module mytest
> %{
> #include "some_class.h"
> }
> %include "some_class.h"
> 
> My question is when I try to import mytest in python it does import it
> but I'm not able to access the SomeClass..

Does SWIG expect to be compiled using a C++ compiler (I don't know).
I suspect you're falling victim to C++ name mangling, but I don't know
enough about SWIG to tell you what to try instead.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Programming languages should be designed not by piling feature on
  top of feature, but by removing the weaknesses and restrictions
  that make the additional features appear necessary.
               -- Revised(5) Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme


From john.burton at jbmail.com  Thu Aug 19 18:44:10 2004
From: john.burton at jbmail.com (John Burton)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:44:10 +0100
Subject: ANN: pyxe
In-Reply-To: <cg3a1v$m00@odbk17.prod.google.com>
References: <cg3a1v$m00@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <41252d3a$0$58821$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk>

Simon John wrote:
> Leave the .py off the end:
> 
>   pyxe /BUILD hello
> 

Ah! That fixed it.


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 00:14:49 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:14:49 +1000
Subject: On consensus decision-making (was Re: Alternative decorator
	syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WEDONE?)
In-Reply-To: <CsmdnSOL1aXP3LfcRVn-vg@powergate.ca>
References: <mailman.2153.1093185119.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<z-adnRDpSpoTJrXcRVn-iw@powergate.ca>
	<cgdbi8$5re$1@panix2.panix.com> <CsmdnSOL1aXP3LfcRVn-vg@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082321143a9097c4@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:13:15 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> Anyway, I suppose this means that the selection will be from
> amongst A1, C1, and J2, each with an implementation, each with
> a sizable number of proponents.  Wish the man well. ;-)

As I've posted a couple of times, the C1 implementation is old, and is
not complete. There's a lot more work to be done on it to make sure
that it covers anything. I've still seen no-one put up their hand to
offer to finish it, which is a shame.


From maxm at mxm.dk  Mon Aug 30 07:00:14 2004
From: maxm at mxm.dk (Max M)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:00:14 +0200
Subject: play a midi file from the interpreter?
In-Reply-To: <iBBYc.265950$J06.164266@pd7tw2no>
References: <95tYc.261224$J06.123492@pd7tw2no> <4132CFE1.20004@mxm.dk>
	<iBBYc.265950$J06.164266@pd7tw2no>
Message-ID: <4133086d$0$299$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>

Elaine Jackson wrote:
> Could you sketch me a useage example? I'm finding the documentation extremely
> sparse. I've heard of 'pipes', but I don't actually know what they are.

Basically you just pass popen a string that looks like one typed at the 
command prompt:

# untested
# (Eg. I don't know the name of your midi file player
# so I call it playmidifile.exe)

import os
midifilename = 'c:/path/to/midifile.mid'
result = os.popen('playmidifile.exe %s' % midifilename)
print result


From timh at zute.net  Thu Aug 26 10:54:33 2004
From: timh at zute.net (Tim Hoffman)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:54:33 +0800
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <412df9ae$1@news.highway1.com.au>

Big plus one from me for J2 over @ syntax

Rgds

Tim Hoffman


From hoang at jotsite.com  Wed Aug 18 16:17:13 2004
From: hoang at jotsite.com (Hoang Do)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:17:13 GMT
Subject: IronPython and collections access
Message-ID: <dPOUc.39423$4s6.32601@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>

I have been able to access global functions and objects with IronPython.
However the following attempt to access collections bombs:

import System
x = System.Collections.BitArray(4)
x[0]

The error message is:
'System.Collections.BitArray' object has no attribute '__getitem__'.   This
is the same error with any classes derived from CollectionsBase.

Has anyone been able to access a collection successfully?

Hoang Do
http://jotsite.com





From amk at amk.ca  Wed Aug  4 02:58:55 2004
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 01:58:55 -0500
Subject: Quixote demo
References: <5b42ae4.0407301634.2e72a8f8@posting.google.com>
	<5b42ae4.0407311512.b9928f6@posting.google.com>
	<5b42ae4.0408010341.76555c1@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <8o-dnda_obOyFI3cRVn-jQ@speakeasy.net>

On 1 Aug 2004 04:41:49 -0700, 
	Ernie <eadorio at yahoo.com> wrote:
> quixote, spyce, snakelets, webware, zope, twisted, etc?  You don't
> have to think or learn more than "one obvious way to do it" in Java or
> PHP. When Pythonistas claim Python is indeed better for writing web

Java is no simpler;
http://www.manageability.org/blog/stuff/how-many-java-web-frameworks/view
lists 54 different web frameworks for Java.  PHP includes web processing as
part of the core, yet googling for "PHP web framework" also turns up
multiple projects.  The claim that other languages are more unified than
Python is not necessarily true.

--amk


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Aug 18 10:35:12 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 10:35:12 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
References: <20040817181725194-0400@braeburn.themorgue.org>
Message-ID: <cfvpf0$p5k$1@panix3.panix.com>

In article <20040817181725194-0400 at braeburn.themorgue.org>,
Kevin Smith  <Kevin.Smith at sas.com> wrote:
>
>Bear with me, but I'd like to propose one more syntax that is simple, 
>easy for newbies to understand,  and nowhere near as powerful as the 
>current PEP's syntax.  However, it doesn't add incoherent, arbitrary 
>syntax either.
>
>def classmethod foo(x, y, z):
>    pass

You can't do ``grep "def foo"``; therefore, Guido rejected this.  (It's
a tiny bit more complicated than that, but that's the essence.)
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Thu Aug  5 10:06:39 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 10:06:39 -0400
Subject: Can decorator syntax do this ? (annotated results' names)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1178.1091674378.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1178.1091674378.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408050948020.32376-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu>

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Sakesun Roykiattisak wrote:

> I stopped follow decorator-syntax discussion for a while, because it 
> seems everlasting.
> But now look like it's settle, so I wonder how far can I go with this 
> new feature ?

Oh, you don't know how wrong you are ;)  All Guido's allowance of the @
syntax into 2.4a2 did was reignite debate, with no end in sight (unless he
pushes it through to 2.4 final, something I sincerely hope he doesn't).  
If I were you, I'd hold off on using decorators until they're in a stable
branch, since there's a good chance they might disappear in 2.4a3.

To answer your question, decorators allow for pretty much anything you can 
define a function to do; the code in your example will work, provided you 
provide a suitable definition for resultnames(): it must return a function 
that accepts a function and returns a (mangled version of that) function.  



From cemerick at snowtide.com  Fri Aug 20 15:37:32 2004
From: cemerick at snowtide.com (Chas Emerick)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:37:32 -0400
Subject: Fate of lambda, Functional Programming in Python...
In-Reply-To: <20040820190538.4675C1E4003@bag.python.org>
References: <20040820190538.4675C1E4003@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <6164B6FC-F2E0-11D8-97D4-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>


On Aug 20, 2004, at 3:05 PM, python-list-request at python.org wrote:

> Nobody is talking about removing the ability to pass functions, just
> the actual "lambda" form.
>
> You can still build a GUI by doing
>
> def spam(stuff):
>   def eggs(parrot):
>     return 5+parrot
>   return eggs
>
> You just can't do
>
> def spam(stuff):
>   return lambda foo: 5+parrot
>
>
> I can't think of a situation where you _really_ need the second (and
> much more limited) form.

Well, there's a couple issues here.  First, I'd rather see the ability 
to do a multiline lambda form.  I'm still not clear on why that wasn't 
dropped in from the start.

But even given the way things are now, lambdas are not just a slight 
reordering of syntax -- they're sometimes the only way to get things 
done quickly and cleanly.  Especially in UI's and in certain simulation 
environments, being able to build up a function table of super-simple 
functions mapped to particular environment parameters is critical.  
Having to explicitly define these sorts of things is a huge pain.  A 
good corollary to python lambdas seems to be anonymous classes in Java, 
especially in a Swing application (the ugly, very gimpy cousin of the 
lambda).  If anonymous classes weren't available in Java, Swing would 
be even worse than it is already; python without lambdas would be a 
huge loss to the language IMO.

And finally, with respect to the spirit of your final comment: just 
because you don't __need__ a more concise, clearer, and easier-to-use 
form doesn't mean that that form has no use, or that switching to a 
'lesser' approach (at least within a restricted usage context) has no 
costs associated with it.

I did find something about GvM's stance towards lambdas and FP in 
general, from http://www.amk.ca/python/writing/gvr-interview.html:

> Sometimes I've been too quick in accepting contributions, and later 
> realized that it was a mistake. One example would be some of the 
> functional programming features, such as lambda functions. lambda is a 
> keyword that lets you create a small anonymous function; built-in 
> functions such as map, filter, and reduce run a function over a 
> sequence type, such as a list.
>
> In practice, it didn't turn out that well. Python only has two scopes: 
> local and global. This makes writing lambda functions painful, because 
> you often want to access variables in the scope where the lambda was 
> defined, but you can't because of the two scopes. There's a way around 
> this, but it's something of a kludge. Often it seems much easier in 
> Python to just use a for loop instead of messing around with lambda 
> functions. map and friends work well only when there's already a 
> built-in function that does what you want.

This is really funny to me, because it seems like Guido is saying, 
essentially, "Python doesn't have proper closures, therefore lambdas 
form a temptation that can't really be fulfilled right now, therefore 
[given the current rumormill] we should get rid of lambdas."  I suppose 
it would be silly to ask why the premise of this line of thought 
shouldn't be changed, instead of throwing the baby out with the 
bathwater.  There's been plenty of discussions about closures and 
python, so I suppose there's no need to kill that topic again.

-- Chas Emerick



From darcykahle at sympatico.ca  Fri Aug  6 19:39:34 2004
From: darcykahle at sympatico.ca (Darcy Kahle)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 19:39:34 -0400
Subject: Advanced printing using win32ui in python - help!
Message-ID: <XEUQc.48836$Vm1.1127573@news20.bellglobal.com>

I am trying to do some advanced printing in python using the win32ui 
module, and have run into an issue.  I need to print a page landscape. 
As I could not determine how to specify the orientation of the printing, 
I arranged the graphic elements on the page the way it should be.  When 
I got to printing text, it went across the page, not down as I need it 
to go.  I tried to use the hDC.SetWorldTransform(0, -1, 1, 0, 0, 0) 
command to rotate the print counterclockwise 90 degrees, but this 
command was virtually ignored.  The other solution that I can see 
involves specifying that the page is in landscape mode, but as I 
indicated earlier, I cannot determine how to accomplish this.  The 
command win32ui.CreatePrintDialog(1538).DoModal() presents the dialog 
where the user can specify landscape mode, but it appears that the OK 
button is not hooked up to a default callback.  There is a PyCPrintInfo 
object, which it looks like I can set this programmatically, and then 
generate the printerDC object, but there is no documentation on how to 
generate this.

Can anyone recommend to me how I could either specify the page to be in 
landscape mode, or rotate the text that is printing?  Any assistance 
that you can provide is greatly appreciated, and I am certain that there 
are others out there that want to know how to do this as well.

BTW, I am currently using WinXP and Python 2.3, but the solution should 
be accessible via Win98 and up.  I plan to use py2exe to run the final 
product on other windows boxes.


From ellisjb at my-deja.com  Thu Aug  5 18:18:37 2004
From: ellisjb at my-deja.com (ellisjb at my-deja.com)
Date: 5 Aug 2004 15:18:37 -0700
Subject: Quixote vs. Preppy
In-Reply-To: <RuqdncwL5e_dEI_cRVn-uw@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <ceubnt$viq@odah37.prod.google.com>

A.M. Kuchling wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 10:55:19 -0600,
> 	Bruce Eckel <BruceEckel at MailBlocks.com> wrote:
> > programmer"), but someone also suggested Preppy from Reportlabs:
> > http://www.reportlab.org/preppy.html
>
> Preppy looks like a templating library, not an arbitrary web
framework

Incidently, http://www.colorstudy.com/docs/shootout.html looks like a
good summary of the major Python web frameworks.  Unfortunately, it's
not dated...  anyone know?

-Jonathan



From roy at panix.com  Thu Aug 12 12:33:50 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:33:50 -0400
Subject: PEP318
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<20040812090056.00001e31@titan>
	<7ttmh0t8c3cogtbhhnp1ohqu8b51pda461@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <roy-DC33F4.12335012082004@reader1.panix.com>

Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
> I must say that after days of waffling, and I think an honest effort
> to accept where things were going, I woke this morning hating
> @decorator.
> 
> The existing syntax for this kind of transformation is, in fact,
> exactly what one would expect:
> 
> foo=staticmathed(foo).
> 
> That is the universal langauge for transformations.  And when we try
> to explain to anybody what it is that @decorator means, we go back to
> the pseudo code that is in fact the existing syntax.

I'm with Arthur.

I think the core problem is that the def statement is kind of wierd.  It 
does two different things.  First, it creates a function body, then it 
binds the function to a name.

One of the objections to:

def foo ():
   whatever
foo = decorator (foo)

is that you have to type the word "foo" three times.  It's not so much 
the effort of repeating the keystrokes, but the fact that it feels so 
unfactored.  The only reason you need to do this is because you have no 
way of getting at the newly-generated function (what CS types would call 
a "lambda form") before it's bound to the name.

A solution to that is to factor out the function definition from the 
name binding, so you would do something like:

foo = def ():
   whatever

although by the time you do that, you might as well have just gotten rid 
of def and used lambda() directly.  If you wanted it to be a 
static/class method, you would do:

foo = staticmethod_def ():
   whatever

The other big objection to the current syntax is that it puts the 
wrapper way down at the bottom of the function body, away from the name.  
The above syntax solves that too.

The big problem with the above is that it changes the semantics of the 
def statement in a way which is incompatible with current usage, and 
thus I would expect it's a complete non-starter.  Not to mention 
inventing new keywords.

On the other hand, doing:

def (staticmethod) foo ():
   whatever

(you can pick whatever bits of punctuation turn you on) seems like it 
should work just fine.  I think it achieves all the goals:

1) It puts the decorator before the function body.

2) It keeps the decorator right next to the function name.

3) It doesn't re-define any currently valid syntax.

4) It looks enough like current Python syntax that most add-on tools 
should handle it just fine.

5) If you've got lots of decorators (I'm still not sure if people really 
think this will happen in real life), it's easy enough to break it up 
into multiple lines:

def @decorator1 \
    @decorator2 \
    @decorator3 foo (a, b, c):
   print a, b, c

but I'm assuming that will be the exception, just like really long 
argument lists are the exception.  Define the order of application of 
multiple decorators in whichever way floats your boat; I'm guessing 
outside-in (i.e. the last one gets done first) makes the most sense.

I suppose you could take this one step further and put the decorators 
inside ()'s, so you'd have any of (as auto-indented by emacs):

def (decorator) foo (a, b, c):
    pass

def (decorator1, decorator2, decorator3) foo (a, b, c):
    pass

def (decorator1,
     decorator2,
     decorator3) foo (a, b, c):
    pass

def (decorator1,
     decorator2,
     decorator3) foo (a,
                      b,
                      c):
    pass

with the last example being a bit ugly, but at least it seems to follow 
the expected indenting rules.  In any case, you'd only have to resort to 
something like that if you had lots of decorators and lots of arguments, 
and in that case, I suspect you might want to be refactoring things to 
simplify it all anyway.

I haven't done an exhaustive search of all the proposed syntaxen which 
have come flying by here in the past week or so.  My apologies if I've 
accidentally duplicated somebody else's work here.

In retrospect (this has been written in dribs and drabs over the past 
several hours, as I've been called away repeatedly to do real work), I 
see I started out by agreeing with Arthur that the current (i.e. pre 
PEP-318) way of doing things is good enough, then managed to head off 
into a different direction and suggest YADS (Yet Another Decorator 
Syntax).  Oh, well.

I'm also not at all convinced that using decorators for things like doc 
strings makes any sense at all.  It's just the wrong tool.  Docstrings 
work just fine the way they are.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.  
Which I guess brings me full-circle back to agreeing with Arthur :-)


From db3l at fitlinxx.com  Wed Aug 18 18:12:14 2004
From: db3l at fitlinxx.com (David Bolen)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 18:12:14 -0400
Subject: Calling __init__ for all mixins
References: <cfvr8l$56q$1@wheel2.two14.net>
Message-ID: <uu0v05c5d.fsf@fitlinxx.com>

Martin Maney <maney at pobox.com> writes:

> I've been to the cookbook (both forms, since they're sometimes usefully
> different), but that gave rise to more questions than answers.  Heck,
> let me pull some of them up while I'm at it.
> 
> Martelli gives the recipie (5.3 on paper) "Calling a Superclass
> __init__ Method if it Exists" where he seems to say that this:
> 
> class NewStyleOnly(A, B, C):
> 	def __init__(self):
> 		super(NewStyleOnly, self).__init__()
> 
> is the New Class Speak equivalent of
> 
> class Classic(A, B, C):
> 	def __init__(self):
> 		for base in self.__class__.__bases__:
> 			if hasattr(base, '__init__'):
> 				base.__init__(self)
> 
> but when I tried a simple test case (base classes just print a tracer
> when called), Martelli's NewStyleOnly only invoked A.__init__, as it
> was the first base class in the base list as written with an __init__
> implemented.  These seem to me to be very different.

Can you show your test code.  I've found that you may need to ensure
all of your classes are cooperating in their use of super(), as in the
following:

    mro.py:

    class A(object):

        def __init__(self):
            print "A init"
            super(A,self).__init__()

    class B(object):

        def __init__(self):
            print "B init"
            super(B,self).__init__()

    class C(object):

        def __init__(self):
            print "C init"
            super(C,self).__init__()


    class Mix(A,B,C):

        def __init__(self):
            print "Mix init"
            super(Mix,self).__init__()


    Python 2.2.3 (#42, May 30 2003, 18:12:08) [MSC 32 bit (Intel)] on win32
    Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
    >>> import mro
    >>> mro.Mix()
    Mix init
    A init
    B init
    C init
    <mro.Mix object at 0x0081EB48>
    >>>

The new style MRO approach will only work if all of your objects are
new style classes and they all participate in the cooperative process
through the use of super().  Also, the precise MRO used has changed
between 2.2 and 2.3 but it shouldn't affect the above syntax.

I do think it's easy to find yourself skipping the call to object's
__init__ in classes since it doesn't necessarily do anything, but it's
those other super calls that provide the chance to iterate through the
inheritance hierarchy based on the initial call from the ultimate
subclass.

Guido has some info on the cooperative use of super in his 2.2
unification draft available at http://www.python.org/2.2.3/descrintro.html
and more info on the MRO change is at http://www.python.org/2.3/mro.html.

-- David


From dave at pythonapocrypha.com  Mon Aug 30 16:50:22 2004
From: dave at pythonapocrypha.com (Dave Brueck)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:50:22 -0600
Subject: Enumerating Network Adapters
In-Reply-To: <9418be08.0408301226.354c337a@posting.google.com>
References: <4131b09e$0$13683$636a15ce@news.free.fr>	<cgt571$8lv$06$1@news.t-online.com>	<413257dd$0$26986$626a14ce@news.free.fr>	<mailman.2602.1093876020.5135.python-list@python.org>	<4qmkheha.fsf@python.net>
	<9418be08.0408301226.354c337a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <4133930E.8090108@pythonapocrypha.com>

Elbert Lev wrote:

>>>It returned the least useful of my 3 IP addresses - my loopback
>>>adapter - but didn't return my LAN and wireless IPs.
> 
> 
> Interesting! I have Python installed on 10 W2K servers and I'm using
> the same construct to get addresses. Works fine for me.

WinXP Pro here - I wonder if that's the difference.

-Dave


From http  Thu Aug 26 18:08:27 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 15:08:27 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgkeio$spo$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<7xhdqp967k.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<412e3ba4$0$92817$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>
	<7xk6vloc3j.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<412e556a$0$93997$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net>
Message-ID: <7xvff5o8mc.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Michael Sparks <zathras at thwackety.com> writes:
>    * Decorators incorporated via the __future__ mechanism
>    * A subset of people use them in earnest
>    * It's found that it would be useful to change the syntax whilst it's
>      still in the experimental __future__ phase. (As might've happened but
>      didn't with yield and generators)

I thought __future__ isn't for experimental features, but rather, it's
for definitely-accepted features that potentially break existing code,
for example by adding new keywords or changing the meaning of
something (the / division operator).  The idea is for a release or two
of the interpreter to signal a warning when an old program uses the
new keyword.


From olli at haluter.fromme.com  Thu Aug 19 12:12:25 2004
From: olli at haluter.fromme.com (Oliver Fromme)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 16:12:25 GMT
Subject: speed
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408191528100.1138-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <2ok1r9FbfebaU1@uni-berlin.de>

Peter Kleiweg <in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid> wrote:
 > I implemented a lexer in Pylly and compared it to the version I
 > had written in Flex. Processing 219062 lines took 0.9 seconds in
 > C (from Flex), and 5 minutes 54 second in Python (from Pylly), a
 > ratio of 393 to 1.
 > 
 > Is this normal for Python, or does Flex produce better parsers
 > than Pylly? I have been looking at the code produced by Flex to
 > see if I could translate it to Python automaticly. But it has a
 > lot of goto statements, and I haven't figured out how to
 > translate those to Python efficiently.
 > 
 > What are the average times used for text processing of Python
 > compared to C?

I don't know Pylly, but I guess it generates a parser using
a finite automaton -- just like lex/flex, except it handles
every single character in Python, wheres lex/flex will lead
to compiled C code.  That would explain the speed difference.

When I have to parse something in Python, I try to do that
using things like string.split(), string.find(), the "re"
module etc.  Those things are written in C, therefore they
are fast enough for most applications.  There are also some
modules for specialized cases, such as "ConfigParser" and
"shlex".  See the Python Library Reference.

Best regards
   Oliver

-- 
Oliver Fromme, Konrad-Celtis-Str. 72, 81369 Munich, Germany

``All that we see or seem is just a dream within a dream.''
(E. A. Poe)


From bac at OCF.Berkeley.EDU  Wed Aug 25 18:32:07 2004
From: bac at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Brett Cannon)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:32:07 -0700
Subject: python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
In-Reply-To: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E75@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E75@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <412D1367.3060100@ocf.berkeley.edu>

Robert Brewer wrote:

> Brett C. wrote:
> 
>>I just don't want people to suddenly get the impression that they can
>>always just throw a little mutiny every time Guido makes a decision. 
>>Do that and he will just ignore what people want period and never even
>>give people a chance to propose an alternative once it reaches
>>python-dev.
> 
> 
> Well said.
> 

Thanks.  Just glad I am not the only one who thought that.

> 
>>And I want people to realize my tirade was just that, a personal
>>tirade.  It was out of frustration and thus should be taken with a
>>grain of salt.
> 
> 
> But that frustration is grounded in reality.
> 

I thought so, but then people started to question whether I overstepped 
some bound or something.

> 
>>And that frustration came from the feeling that the Python community,
>>which I love, seemed to suddenly form a mob, grab pitchforks and
>>torches, and started screaming.  And then they seemed to hold a public
>>meeting with *everyone* proposing their idea and not completely
>>listening to initial decisions.
> 
> 
> I attribute the breakdown-of-process to scale issues, and not much else.
> The decorator debate had:
>     a) the largest body of dissenters I've ever seen for a new Python
> feature, and
>     b) the largest volume of alternate proposals.
> 

I would put it mostly in b) than a), but both are true.

> Many new features have had a certain amount of tweaking to be done even
> after Guido has pronounced. Each of these tweaks requires communication.
> In the case of decorators, the volume of communication required was
> simply too much for the medium of Usenet, which promotes short,
> tangential discussions rather than systemic analysis. This is the
> primary reason I felt a focused paper would benefit the process.
> 
> One of my hopes is that, for large, complex community responses in the
> future, someone else will do the same. This proposal sets a precedent
> for those cases which overload the normal response process. However, it
> should be made clear that _not every response warrants this format_.
> 

That is basically the PEP process.  And that is basically what you have 
written, Robert.  That is a good route to go; a PEP that presents an 
alternative.  Helps centralize information, makes a single person the 
main contact point to filter out background chatter, and solves world 
hunger.  =)

> In Brett's language, go ahead and hold "public meetings". But either
> hire a Usenet police force or (much better) police yourselves--when the
> debate begins to explode, form a task force and write a proposal or two.
> I am *not* placing blame on anyone here, just pointing out that this is
> the first time such a step was needed. We are all watching it play out
> for the first time. Let's learn from it and apply those lessons next
> time.
> 

Totally agree.

> Although I like J2, I'm not rabid about it (and despite the opinions of
> the pundits, I do *not* have "too much free time"; far from it).

People have been saying that?  That's a shame.  Just means you care 
enough to put the time into it.  Anyone else could  do what you are 
doing, you just happen to care.  Not like any of us have loads of free 
time, we just make a decision on what to do with what little free time 
we do have.

> I could
> have written an equally-compelling paper on any of the alternatives. I
> am far more dedicated to the "meta-outcome" of this proposal, that Guido
> is presented with alternatives in a usable and effective fashion, than I
> am in which option he selects. The "next level" of course, is whether
> that goal is met and how to reproduce such a success (or avoid such a
> failure) in the future.
> 

And I personally thank you for it even if I prefer the '@' syntax.  =)

> 
>>I truly hope that next time Guido makes a decision that people as a
>>whole disagree with everyone involved can get together and discuss it
>>calmly without flooding my inbox.  =)
> 
> 
> Me too. This isn't a fundamentally hard problem, it simply happens to be
> a management issue for a bunch of techies. Once in a while, Guido's
> "cabinet" needs to manage people and process as much as it does source
> code. As Python gains more of a following, this will occur more often.
> 

But  I don't want to play "Middle Management".  =)

But you are right.  python-dev probably could have stood to put its 
collective foot down earlier about moving the discussion off-list.  Live 
and learn.  Trouble when we all don't work in the same room.

-Brett


From michele.simionato at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 03:12:08 2004
From: michele.simionato at gmail.com (Michele Simionato)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 00:12:08 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4edc17eb.0408252312.745a6fea@posting.google.com>

Uhm... the choice between @ and J2 is tough for me. "@" is somewhat
less intrusive (I automatically ignore it, look at the function body
and then go back at the decorator) whereas J2 focus too much the
attention on the using clause. This is probably because it reminds
me a try: except: block, where the attention is focused on the try:
part. It is probably matter of time to get used to it. 

OTOH I think that J2 is more consistent with the rest of Python and
it avoids the introduction of the pie sign which conflicts with Leo
and IPython, so there are strong arguments in its favor.

Conclusion: I would be happy both with "@" and J2 (or even with
"|" instead of "@"). However, the work done by Robert Brewer and 
Micheal Sparks is impressive and deserve to be supported, so
count me as a mild "FOR" ;)


   Michele Simionato


From http  Wed Aug 11 19:54:11 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 16:54:11 -0700
Subject: PyJack
References: <6fd8df7e.0408111536.79369258@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <7xisbpmdss.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

jumpthewall at gmail.com (Chris Patton) writes:
> import whrandom, os

Use random rather than whrandom.  whrandom is obsolete and deprecated.
If you're imagining a situation where players will bet real money on
the hands dealt by this program, you have to get even more serious
about the sources of randomness.

> def scorer(score,playerdeck):...
>                         while d < len(playerdeck):
>                                 if score > 10 and 'A' in playerdeck:
> typevalues['A'] = 1

This is pretty ugly, changing the contents of what's conceptually a
fixed table, depending on the player score.  I think it's better to
just score the hand with A=1, then count the aces and adjust the score
accordingly.

>         while decksize < 52:
>                 a = whrandom.randint(0,12)
>                 if left[a] > 0:
>                         left[a] = left[a] - 1
>                         deck.append(types[a])
>                         decksize = decksize + 1
>                 elif left[a] == 0: pass

This is a horrendous method of shuffling the cards.  When there's only
one card left to deal, it will take several tries to find it.  See
the random.shuffle function for a direct way to shuffle.

>         humandeck = []
>         while c <= 1:
>                 humandeck.append(deck[0])
>                 del deck[0]
>                 c = c + 1

>         compdeck = []
>         c = 0
>         while c <= 1:
>                 compdeck.append(deck[0])
>                 del deck[0]
>                 c = c + 1


Move these to a function that deals one hand, and call it for
the player and the computer.

>         score = 0
>         compscore = 0
>         stay = 0
>         over = 0
>         compstay = 0
>         compover = 0

Maybe you want to think of using fewer variables, e.g. create class
instances for the two players.  Right now you only handle a two-player
game (the human and the computer).  What if you want to handle n players?


From jbors at mail.ru  Thu Aug  5 12:52:29 2004
From: jbors at mail.ru (Dmitry Borisov)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 20:52:29 +0400
Subject: Need help on how to use Pymedia!
In-Reply-To: <wAsQc.12060$Jp6.9869@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <E1BslTh-0001bf-00.jbors-mail-ru@f21.mail.ru>


> 
> Thank you for your help!
> 
> "Lawrence Oluyede" <raims at dot.com> wrote in message
> news:3x8w4pqd3emo.15wp1jkrwkqua.dlg at 40tude.net...
> > In data Thu, 05 Aug 2004 02:28:48 GMT, CptPicard ha scritto:
> >
> > > Could someone give me a more detailed documentation on pymedia or some
> clues
> > > on how to get the information I need ?
> >
> > AFAIK Pymedia cannot extract ID3 infos from MP3 (altough you can study by
> > yourself the ID3 format a inspect the raw info of the file), anyway the
> web
> > is full of ID3 tools for python such as:
> > http://id3-py.sourceforge.net/

Please use this mailing list to get support on pymedia: pymedia-users at lists.sourceforge.net
It will make sure you get the quick response.

The documentation is a little scarce at the moment and I'm working on the tutorial to compensate that.

Here is the code which will give you what you need( from pycar ). It is modified to match what you need and therefore not tested.:

    f= open( <file_name>, 'rb' )
    dec= acodec.Decoder( <file_extension> )
    s= f.read( 20000 )
    fr= dec.decode( s )
    # Hardcoding for mp3 IDv1 tags
    if not dec.hasHeader() and <file_extension>== 'mp3':
      f.seek( -128, 2 )
      dec= acodec.Decoder( 'mp3' )
      dec.decode( f.read( 128 ) )

    print dec.getInfo()

Hope this helps.
Dmitry/



From brianc at temple.edu  Fri Aug 13 09:08:25 2004
From: brianc at temple.edu (brianc at temple.edu)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:08:25 -0400
Subject: !wtf ellipsis
Message-ID: <b9fe4171.6f39998e.82d0d00@po-d.temple.edu>

One thing I like to use it for is a dummy variable to pass
into a loop. Say you want to find the lowest value in a list
of numbers:

l=[5,4,3,2,1]
lowest_value=Ellipsis
for i in l:
    if lowest_value > i:
        lowest_value=i

Like a positive infinity. Though it would be nice to have a
reciprocal negative infinity. 

-Brian

---- Original message ----
>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:54:24 +0200
>From: Jonas K?lker <jonaskoelker at yahoo.com>  
>Subject: !wtf ellipsis  
>To: python-list at python.org
>
>so, I've read the manuals, done a few hacks, read the quick
reference.
>however, one thing still eludes me:
>
>what (the hell) is Ellipsis?
>what's it good for?
>how do I use it; how does the interpreter use it?
>
>... thanks everybody,
>
>Jonas K?lker
>
>----
>[ValueError: ASCII art sig block too ugly to live]
>
>-- 
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From notarealaddress at notarealaddress.com  Fri Aug 20 08:19:53 2004
From: notarealaddress at notarealaddress.com (djo)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:19:53 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <cg4q98$mag$1@courier.brandeis.edu>




J2 J2 L



I like keywords instead of symbols.  Although I've started 
thinking of the @ as "a" for "apply decorating function".  I 
don't read python-dev, what that intentional?



djo (lurker, using Python for image analysis software for 
electron microscopy)


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 23 15:15:53 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:15:53 -0400
Subject: PEP318: radical notion
In-Reply-To: <Xns954E72EC48C5Earienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>
References: <Xns954E72EC48C5Earienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>
Message-ID: <CsmdnSKL1aVt3LfcRVn-vg@powergate.ca>

Arien Malec wrote:

> Apologies for feeding the fire, when we are rallying around a consensus, 
> but I've been concerned about the clash between syntax and semantics, and 
> I've finally reached a mini-epiphany:
> 
> The problem with PEP318 is that it is too powerful, and tries to do too 
> much. It is a sledgehammer for attacking three problems:
[snip]

I believe your mini-epiphany has been reached by several other people
in this forum and discussed at length, certainly not in exactly the
same words but surely in a very similar form.

If you've checked the archives and seen those discussions, but still
feel you have something really original to contribute, I suggest
contrasting your argument with those previous ones to demonstrate
how it is different and worth further discussion at this point.
If you don't, I expect many people will feel you are just rehashing
something very late in the game and will mostly ignore your post.

-Peter


From siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk  Tue Aug 24 09:33:44 2004
From: siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk (Sion Arrowsmith)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 14:33:44 +0100 (BST)
Subject: 100 % portable ?
References: <rp_Vc.221989$xO.10939509@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<sl1nv1-7jm.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<Xsw*OvOsq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
	<m36579rfq0.fsf@g2ctech.com>
Message-ID: <80k*UdTsq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

In article <m36579rfq0.fsf at g2ctech.com>, Jorge Godoy  <godoy at ieee.org> wrote:
>Sion Arrowsmith <siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
>>  I've got about 20,000 lines of
>> application with six platform tests, five of which are to
>> work around platform-specific infelicities in wx.
>This sounds very interesting.
>
>Do any of you have those tests and workarounds publicly available? 

The tests are just a matter of checking sys.platform at the
appropriate point -- since the target platforms ATM are only
Windows and Linux a simple == "win32" or != "win32" depending
on which requires special treatment (usually Linux/GTK) does
the job.

I really should stick at least some of this stuff on the wiki
(http://wiki.wxpython.org/index.cgi/wxPython_20Platform_20Inconsistencies)
-- for that matter, I should refine and bug-report the ones I
haven't already.

-- 
\S -- siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk -- http://www.chaos.org.uk/~sion/
  ___  |  "Frankly I have no feelings towards penguins one way or the other"
  \X/  |    -- Arthur C. Clarke
   her nu become? se bera eadward ofdun hl?ddre heafdes b?ce bump bump bump


From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Aug 26 17:27:05 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 23:27:05 +0200
Subject: What GCC version had <stdint.h> defined?
In-Reply-To: <412e39d1$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
References: <412e39d1$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
Message-ID: <412E55A9.9070400@v.loewis.de>

Scott David Daniels wrote:
> Does anyone know which version of GCC introduced stdint.h (and
> thereby uintptr_t and intptr_t)?  I'd like to get the conditionals
> right.

stdint.h is not part of GCC; it is part of libc6. You shouldn't do
#ifdefs based on version numbers, but instead, you should do checks
based on the features of the software, like autoconf does.

Regards,
Martin


From tchur at optushome.com.au  Sun Aug 22 00:49:05 2004
From: tchur at optushome.com.au (Tim Churches)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 14:49:05 +1000
Subject: Python future performance and speed
In-Reply-To: <7x4qmv6cwo.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>  <7x4qmv6cwo.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <1093150145.1264.66.camel@emilio>

On Sun, 2004-08-22 at 13:59, Paul Rubin wrote:
> aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) writes:
> > >It seems there are quite a few projects aimed to improve Python's
> > >speed and, therefore, eliminate its main limitation for mainstream
> > >acceptance.
> > 
> > What makes you think speed is Python's primary limitation for mainstream
> > acceptance?
> 
> Well, whenever I want to write a mainstream application and think of
> using Python, my first reaction is that Python is too slow...

As a population health epidemiologist whose stock-in-trade is
manipulation and analysis of large health data sets, I have to say that
Python's run-time speed is almost always much faster than I would have
expected from such a dynamic language, but also almost always much
slower than I would like, especially when compared to widely-used (but
vastly expensive and sprawling) data manipulation environments such as
SAS system (see http://www.sas.com) which is the "industry standard" in
my particular field. However the speed of programme creation with Python
is, in general, outstandingly swift, making it the environment of choice
for one-off tasks. But for routinely-executed jobs which process large
amounts of data, especially for jobs which can't be scheduled to run
overnight, Python is much slower than I would like. Numpy is a godsend
in situations in which it can be used, Psyco helps a lot, I am rapidly
warming to Pyrex (if you'll pardon the pun), and I can't wait to try out
Starkiller. But don't get me wrong: I love Python (which my better half
refers to as "ang babaeng ahas" - the "snake woman" - who has firmly
stolen my affections, or punningly, as "ang asawang sawa" - literally
the "python spouse" but with connotations of "the clinging consort" -
and I was recently much amused when a colleague revealed that she
seriously, albeit momentarily, thought that her object-oriented,
dynamic-language-phile programmer husband was having a torrid
extra-marital affair when she discovered hundreds of email in his in-box
referring to someone called Ruby).
-- 

Tim C

PGP/GnuPG Key 1024D/EAF993D0 available from keyservers everywhere
or at http://members.optushome.com.au/tchur/pubkey.asc
Key fingerprint = 8C22 BF76 33BA B3B5 1D5B  EB37 7891 46A9 EAF9 93D0





From adurdin at gmail.com  Sun Aug  8 22:44:12 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 12:44:12 +1000
Subject: PEP-0318
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed204080818344e0e8c3e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41122FC2.1080608@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1251.1091764482.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4114152f@nntp.zianet.com> <aIOdnRybBucMsIncRVn-gA@comcast.com>
	<4116bc20$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<e69d3ed204080818344e0e8c3e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a0408081944410dd104@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 11:34:39 +1000, Anthony Baxter
<anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Guido has ruled out decorators at the top of function body, on the grounds
> that it looks like something that would be executed as part of the function,
> but isn't. FWIW, in the same thread he's noted that having docstrings where
> they are is problematic in this respect.

I honestly believe that having docstrings where they are is better
than having them before the function signature; how many
function-commenting standards have you seen where the function name is
repeated in the first line of the comment so that you know what
function is being talked about when you start reading the comment?

The function signature should be first, and everything else to do with
it following. What might be a better general solution would be to have
a separate function header (containing docstrings, decorators, initial
attributes, etc) and body. Those parts in the header would be
parsed/executed only on function creation; the body being the part
that is executed when the function is called.

This in conception is something like the following:

def foo(bar, baz=None):
    header:
        """Frobulates bar, and calls baz if it is not None."""
        .decorate(decorator_func)
        .attribute = "qux"
    body:
        pass

Note that I'm neither proposing such a thing for implementation in
Python, nor suggesting that the above syntax would be particularly
suitable :)   -- I'm just trying to illustrate the idea that
docstrings are better off after the signature.


From http  Fri Aug 13 13:49:06 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 10:49:06 -0700
Subject: def ... decorate
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
	<slrnchnlm3.vq2.nick@irishsea.home.craig-wood.com>
	<16668.57321.308134.676624@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<mailman.1622.1092416085.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <7x3c2r7wtp.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Roman Suzi <rnd at onego.ru> writes:
> Bingo!
> 
> Just replace decorate with "from" and the nice syntax is found:
> 
>     def f:
>         staticmethod
>         grammarrule('statement : expression')
>         version("Added in 2.4")
>         deprecatedmethod
>         type_(None)
>     from self, p:
>         """docstring here"""
>         print p[1]

You can get rid of the keyword:

>     def f:
>         staticmethod
>         grammarrule('statement : expression')
>         version("Added in 2.4")
>         deprecatedmethod
>         type_(None)
>     (self, p):
>         """docstring here"""
>         print p[1]

The syntax is if you see f without parentheses, what follows is decorators.
The outdent before the arg list makes it obvious where the arg list is.


From 123 at 456.com  Thu Aug 12 10:33:34 2004
From: 123 at 456.com (Shankar KN)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 20:03:34 +0530
Subject: Python Installation (Debug Build)
Message-ID: <cffurb$675$1@news.mch.sbs.de>

Hi,

I have a system where all my binaries (built in Debug mode) are deployed on
Windows XP Professional. These are C++ DLLs that expose a Python interface
using SWIG.

I have installed Python 2.3.3 here.

If I write Python scripts that make calls to the Interfaces exposed by the
C++ DLLs I get the following error:-
Fatal Python error: Interpreter not initialized (version mismatch?)

However when the same binaries are built in Release mode, my calls work
fine,

Any clues as to how I could overcome this problem.




From richardjones at optushome.com.au  Tue Aug 10 03:59:11 2004
From: richardjones at optushome.com.au (richard)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:59:11 +1000
Subject: Popular Python projects with lots of pure Python code
References: <4117F439.40805@ocf.berkeley.edu>
	<mailman.1426.1092112213.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <41188050$0$18434$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>

Mike C. Fletcher wrote:
> Brett C. wrote:
>> So I am trying to come up with a list of projects I can use to get my
>> stats from.  the stdlib is a no-brainer.  Also plan to use Docutils.
>> But beyond those most of the big Python projects I can think of have a
>> ton of C code which is of no use to me.  I don't need to be able to
>> run it, just going to be compiling to .py files.
>>
>> Any suggestions?

Missed the OP, but there's a wiki page for this:

  http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/LargePythonProjects

but it's obviously not been advertised well, as it's practically empty ;)


    Richard



From mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no  Mon Aug 23 16:46:03 2004
From: mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no (Magnus Lie Hetland)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:46:03 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Standard graph API?
References: <slrncik8tm.4g.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
	<hIidnY0sZ9s71LfcRVn-og@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <slrnciklsb.e8q.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>

In article <hIidnY0sZ9s71LfcRVn-og at giganews.com>, Istvan Albert wrote:
[snip]
>http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/i/u/iua1/python/graphlib/html/

I've only looked at it briefly, but it looks quite nice indeed.

-- 
Magnus Lie Hetland     "Canned Bread: The greatest thing since sliced
http://hetland.org      bread!" [from a can in Spongebob Squarepants]


From npat at efault.net  Mon Aug 16 15:11:24 2004
From: npat at efault.net (Nick Patavalis)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:11:24 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
References: <mailman.1661.1092519005.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7x7js1i887.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<slrnchug4m.n0d.npat@gray.efault.net> <zn4w2y3g.fsf@telus.net>
Message-ID: <slrnci21mq.h3l.npat@gray.efault.net>

On 2004-08-15, Lenard Lindstrom <len-1 at telus.net> wrote:
>
> Having followed the development of Prothon it is my understanding that
> such a thing is not possible in CPython for two reasons. The first is
> that the yield statement itself defines a function declaration as a
> generator. Without a specific "gen" declarator keyword as in Prothon.
>

Oh, I see. Then I have to say, this is an unbelievable screw-up in the
language specification. Being able to yield from within multiple
function-call levels is essential for any non-trivial use of
generators. Without this generators can only be used for simple stuff
such as to creates lists dynamically.

> The second reason is a python function call in CPython involves an
> actual recursive C call of the interpreter.

What!?! CPython uses the *C-stack* !!?!?! Is there a reason for this?
I mean, for a weekend toy-project interpreter such an aproach would be
understandable, but for the primary Python interpreter! There must be
a reason I don't understand...

/npat


From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Aug  4 16:32:08 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 22:32:08 +0200
Subject: help: Unit test fixture returning the same object
References: <9895e897.0408031533.26720ba0@posting.google.com>
	<nKGdnfWEjOtspo3cRVn-qg@powergate.ca>
	<9895e897.0408040851.21ac7caa@posting.google.com>
	<roy-D35DF5.12585504082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<yovvffy7lj8.fsf@gradlab.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <cerh48$csd$01$1@news.t-online.com>

Michael McCracken wrote:

> I managed to fix my problem, but I don't understand why the fix works
> yet, so I'm not quite satisfied.

[...] 

> class Block:
>     def __init__(self, name, preds = [], succs = []):

Heureka! Providing mutables as default values is a well-known pitfall. 

http://www.python.org/doc/faq/general.html#why-are-default-values-shared-between-objects

The default values are evaluated only once, so you end up sharing
predecessors and successors between all Block instances that are created
without explicitly passing preds and succs. A minimal example:

>>> def f(a, alist=[]):
...     alist.append(a)
...     print alist
...
>>> f(1)
[1]
>>> f(2)
[1, 2]
>>> f(3)
[1, 2, 3]

The standard workaround is to initialize the would-be list with None like
followed by a test in the function body:

>>> def f(a, alist=None):
...     if alist is None: alist = []
...     alist.append(a)
...     print alist
...
>>> f(1)
[1]
>>> f(2)
[2]
>>> alist = []
>>> f(1, alist)
[1]
>>> f(2, alist)
[1, 2]

Peter



From m.boeren at guidance.nl  Thu Aug 26 03:29:29 2004
From: m.boeren at guidance.nl (Marc Boeren)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:29:29 +0200
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
Message-ID: <0C77C7530EA52A4EBD1C47C80D1D291E17DE44@sbs.GuidanceBV.local>


> The J2 proposal is as complete as it will ever be.
> This is a call for all who wish to sign the proposal, either for,
> against, or abstaining.

I'll sign FOR. 

Cheerio, Marc Boeren.



From peter at engcorp.com  Wed Aug  4 10:20:53 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 10:20:53 -0400
Subject: Does python support multi prototype.
In-Reply-To: <slrnch1o4j.nv3.jgrahn-nntq@frailea.sa.invalid>
References: <2natmnFv86rjU1@uni-berlin.de> <HGXPc.1098$M95.865@pd7tw1no>
	<slrnch1o4j.nv3.jgrahn-nntq@frailea.sa.invalid>
Message-ID: <TZydnS8D3rdVbY3cRVn-gA@powergate.ca>

Jorgen Grahn wrote:

> Yes, but that's not as elegant in cases where the arguments' types has to
> trigger very different processing. I can even imagine situations where
> foo(S) and a foo(T) do completely different things, and still 'foo' is the
> best name for both of them.
> 
> I miss overloading in Python from time to time, but I can live without it.
> It is, after all, closely tied to a type system which is desirable in C++
> and Java, but not in Python.

(untested code, may be minor bugs)

def _foo_S(arg):
     # do something with arg, which is an S

def _foo_T(arg):
     # do something with arg, which is a T

def _foo_whatever(arg):
     # do something with arg when it's a "whatever"

     # ad nauseum...

def foo(arg):
     '''generic dispatcher for foo() function'''
     try:
         func = globals()['_foo_%s' % type(arg).__name__]
     except KeyError:
         raise TypeError('invalid type for function foo', arg)
     else:
         func(arg)


If you _really_ miss it from time to time, then it's _really_
easy to add it so that it's available in a fairly elegant fashion
when you do need it.

The above won't handle old-style classes, but adding support
for them would be pretty trivial too.  (Just need to check for
the case where the type is "instance" and use arg.__class__
instead of type(arg).)

-Peter


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug  6 08:05:15 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 08:05:15 -0400
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <ceu88t$2at$1@bagan.srce.hr>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>	<2-SdnZCwNs1SwI_cRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1202.1091723710.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ceu88t$2at$1@bagan.srce.hr>
Message-ID: <8umdnWXWJtRm7o7cRVn-uw@powergate.ca>

Ivan Voras wrote:

> def @synchronized @classmethod x(self):
>     pass
> 
> Granted that the keywords are long-ish, but I stongly feel it's still 
> less ugly than the topmost version.

I don't think the decorator names are ever keywords.  They are
just arbitrary names bound to stuff... I suspect you would find
people writing code like this instead:

sync = synchronized
cm = classmethod

def @sync @cm x(self):
    pass


(I'm not saying whether that's a good thing, just pointing it out.)

-Peter


From cemerick at snowtide.com  Fri Aug 20 12:50:02 2004
From: cemerick at snowtide.com (Chas Emerick)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:50:02 -0400
Subject: Fate of lambda, Functional Programming in Python...
In-Reply-To: <20040820163629.8DD4F1E401A@bag.python.org>
References: <20040820163629.8DD4F1E401A@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <FB2F45DA-F2C8-11D8-97D4-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>

In a comment off a post on lambda-the-ultimate, I noticed this little 
offhand remark:

'''IIRC GvR is going to kill the various lambda, map,filter & reduce 
leaving just generator expressions/list comprehension.'''

If this is considered generally true (at least in the 
straight-from-the-rumor-mill sense) I'm hoping someone here can either 
provide the backstory on this or point me in the direction of related 
discussions on python-dev (it's **real** hard to do a search on that 
list's archives when one's main keywords are lambda, map, filter, 
etc...).

I'm quite fond of lambda, and it seems to have plenty of uses aside 
from munging lists in connection with map calls (i.e. passing one-off 
comparators to cmp()).  Of course, my first "real" programming language 
was lisp, so perhaps I'm biased.   (You should see all the anonymous 
classes I throw off in Java!)

Anyway -- back to your regularly scheduled decorator-discussion of the 
day.   ;-)

-- Chas Emerick



From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug 13 09:12:49 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:12:49 -0400
Subject: Flython?
In-Reply-To: <411cbcb1$0$3894$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
	<411cbcb1$0$3894$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>
Message-ID: <W9qdnWhf8u7MI4HcRVn-ow@powergate.ca>

Guyon Mor?e wrote:
> You can also write your objects in python and expose them as xml-rpc/soap.
> Then use them from flash...

How would I do that without spending hundreds and hundreds
of dollars on a development system for Flash anyway?

-Peter


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 01:44:26 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:44:26 +1000
Subject: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was Decorator syntax)
In-Reply-To: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01C8C636@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>
References: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01C8C636@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408052244468537bd@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:10:58 +1000, Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy)
<tdelaney at avaya.com> wrote:
> I see this less as a vote, and more an attempt to reach a community
> consensus - or at least a large enough one to lend weight to the many
> arguments that have already been presented.
> 
> I will live with pie-syntax, but I won't be overly happy with it. I
> would much prefer that list-after-def be accepted.

Note that Guido has ruled this form out, in a pretty strong way ("I really
hate this"[1][2]) so if you want to change his mind, you'll need to come up with
arguments as to why he's wrong. 

I'm not saying that this isn't possible, more that merely collecting a concensus
vote isn't likely to do much. Strong technical arguments are much more likely
to work.


[1] http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-March/043756.html
[2] http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046672.html
... and a bunch of other posts in the archives.


From bokr at oz.net  Fri Aug 27 23:03:39 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 03:03:39 GMT
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>
	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:39:51 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:

>Anthony Baxter wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:09:42 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 
>>>Yes, it doesn't seem all that complex, although I'm not sure that
>>>everyone reading this understands them and their subtleties.  The
>>>following is an excerpt from
>>>http://docs.python.org/tut/node11.html#SECTION0011200000000000000000
>>>
>>>"A namespace is a mapping from names to objects. Most namespaces are
>>>currently implemented as Python dictionaries, but that's normally not
>>>noticeable in any way (except for performance), and it may change in the
>>>future. Examples of namespaces are: the set of built-in names (functions
>>>such as abs(), and built-in exception names); the global names in a
>>>module; and the local names in a function invocation. In a sense the set
>>>of attributes of an object also form a namespace."
>> 
>> 
>>>When I talk about namespaces, I include all of the above, including the
>>>sense mentioned in the last line.  So an object's attributes constitute
>>>a namespace too.  Therefore __doc__, being an attribute of the function
>>>object, is in the function object's /namespace/.  And note that this is
>>>*not* a new namespace; it's been there all along.
>> 
>> 
>> "In a sense" is the bit you're missing here. You can't just hand-wave
>> and say that it's a namespace. It's *not* a namespace. If it was, you
>> could do any of these:
>> 
>
>No I didn't miss it (I read that bit).  In a sense, every object has 
>it's own namespace.  So that means that every class, every module, every 
>function has a namespace (in a sense).  The namespace (the mapping from 
>names to objects) is stored in each object's special __dict__ attribute.
>
>Ok, and this is certainly apparent with classes.
>
>   >>> class Foo:
>   ... 	"""docstring for Foo"""
>   ...
>   >>> Foo.__doc__
>   'docstring for Foo'
>   >>> Foo.__dict__.keys()
>   ['__module__', '__doc__']
>   >>>
>
>And because of the parallels between the above class definition of Foo 
>and the following function definition of baz, I would expect the same 
>behavior.
>
>   >>> def baz():
>   ...    """docstring of baz"""
>   ...
>   >>> baz.__doc__
>   'docstring of baz'
>   >>> baz.__dict__.keys()
>   []
>
>Say what?  Why didn't the Python system put baz's docstring into it's 
>namespace (__dict__)?   And where did it put it?
>
>I would like to understand the answers to these questions.  Can you 
>answer them (will you)?  If not, can you please point me at something 
>that documents what's going on here?
>
>Thanks.
>
It looks to me like __doc__ is a descriptor (or c-code that acts like one)
(i.e., like a property) of the function class:

 >>> def foo():
 ...     'foo doc string'
 ...

Find __doc__ in the class dict:
 >>> type(foo).__dict__['__doc__']
 <member '__doc__' of 'function' objects>

Check on its nature a little:
 >>> type(type(foo).__dict__['__doc__'])
 <type 'member_descriptor'>

It should have a __get__ method
 >>> type(foo).__dict__['__doc__'].__get__
 <method-wrapper object at 0x00901410>

Call that with foo as object instance:
 >>> type(foo).__dict__['__doc__'].__get__(foo,None)
 'foo doc string'

Try writing the __doc__ property (check for __set__ first):
 >>> type(foo).__dict__['__doc__'].__set__
 <method-wrapper object at 0x00901490>

Do long version of foo.__doc__ = 'new docstring'
 >>> type(foo).__dict__['__doc__'].__set__(foo, 'new docstring') # foo.__doc__ = ...

Look at it using the short spelling:
 >>> foo.__doc__
 'new docstring'

And the long:
 >>> type(foo).__dict__['__doc__'].__get__(foo,None)
 'new docstring'

foo.func_doc seems to be implemented in a similar way:
 >>> type(foo).__dict__['func_doc'].__get__(foo,None)
 'new docstring'
 >>> foo.func_doc
 'new docstring'

Even the dict of a function instance appears to be implemented as a property:
 >>> type(type(foo).__dict__['__dict__'])
 <type 'getset_descriptor'>
 >>> type(foo).__dict__['__dict__'].__get__(foo,None)
 {}
 >>> foo.x=123
 >>> type(foo).__dict__['__dict__'].__get__(foo,None)
 {'x': 123}

Short spelling:
 >>> foo.__dict__
 {'x': 123}

I haven't been into the implementation code, but this interpretation
of surface appearances seems to fit.

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From godoy at ieee.org  Mon Aug 16 20:11:08 2004
From: godoy at ieee.org (Jorge Godoy)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:11:08 -0300
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<RGwTc.37687$js3.13758840@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<m34qn2n2du.fsf@g2ctech.com> <41214271_1@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <m3r7q6lj37.fsf@g2ctech.com>

"beliavsky at aol.com" <beliavsky at 127.0.0.1:7501> writes:

> Jorge Godoy <godoy at ieee.org> wrote:
>
>>Just an attempt and trying to keep it like your code. 
>
> Thanks. My code did not correctly illustrate breaking out of more than one
> level of loop. How would the following code be translated to Python?

For that I'd adopt either the use of exceptions or a flag. ;-)

> It is silly of course, but real-world situations where you want to exit a
> nested loop are not that rare.
>
> program xnest_loop
> ! illustrate breaking a nested loop
> integer :: i,j,k,n
> n = 4
> ido: do i=1,n
>    jdo: do j=1,n
>       if (i+j > n) exit ido
>       do k=1,n
>          if (i+j-k < 0) exit jdo
>          print*,i,j,k
>       end do
>    end do jdo
> end do ido
> end program xnest_loop
>
> output:
>  1 1 1
>  1 1 2
>  2 1 1
>  2 1 2
>  2 1 3
>  3 1 1
>  3 1 2
>  3 1 3
>  3 1 4

>>> n = 4
>>> for i in xrange(1, n):
...     for j in xrange(1, n):
...             if (i + j > n): exit
...             for k in xrange(1, n):
...                     if ((i + j - k) < 0):
...                             to_exit = 1
...                             break
...                     print i, '\t', j, '\t', k
...             if to_exit:
...                     break
...
1       1       1
1       1       2
2       1       1
2       1       2
2       1       3
3       1       1
3       1       2
3       1       3
>>>


Is your last line (3 1 4) correct?  In the expression "3 + 1 - 4 < 0" it
is true, so I think the line should be printed...  Should it? (Does the
loop run at least once before evaluating the expression?)  I really
haven't paid attention to your code, just "translated" it to the above
python, with the same logic as the previous one.  Using exceptions would
give me a finer grained control, I think, but would require more lines
of code.



Be seeing you,
-- 
Godoy.     <godoy at ieee.org>


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 09:50:43 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:50:43 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <cgkjm5$3lb$2@sea.gmane.org>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<cghslg$lao$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082600433e025140@mail.gmail.com>
	<cgkjm5$3lb$2@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <cgkprj$3lb$5@sea.gmane.org>

Errata.  Please change the paragraph...

> 
> Ok.  Then let's jettison the baggage with the word metaclass and just 
> call them 'magic attributes'.  It doesn't matter.  The essential point 
> about them is that they almost /never have 'local variable' semantics/. 
>  They are attributes of the object being defined.  That's the point I'm 
> trying to drive home here.  When we use __xxx__ attributes, we are not 
> intending to create local variables.  No.  We are making declarations.
> 

...to...

Ok.  Then let's jettison the baggage with the word metadata and just
call them 'magic attributes'.  It doesn't matter.  The essential point
about them is that they almost /never have 'local variable' semantics/.
They are attributes of the object being defined.  That's the point I'm
trying to drive home here.  When we define __xxx__ attributes, we are 
not intending to create local variables.  No.  We are making declarations.


Paul




From cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca  Sun Aug 22 16:04:12 2004
From: cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca (David M. Cooke)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 16:04:12 -0400
Subject: 100 % portable ?
References: <rp_Vc.221989$xO.10939509@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<sl1nv1-7jm.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
Message-ID: <qnkn00nkkhv.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>

At some point, "Roger Binns" <rogerb at rogerbinns.com> wrote:

> Note that for some things you would want different code.  For
> example the default location to save files may be My Documents
> on Windows and $HOME on Linux and Mac.  Similarly you would
> want to save configuration settings in the registry on Windows
> and dot files on Linux and Mac.

For Mac the preferred place files is ~/Documents, and for config files
is in ~/Library/<application name>/.

-- 
|>|\/|<
/--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
|David M. Cooke
|cookedm(at)physics(dot)mcmaster(dot)ca


From Ian.Sparks at etrials.com  Wed Aug 25 18:18:53 2004
From: Ian.Sparks at etrials.com (Ian Sparks)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 18:18:53 -0400
Subject: Proposal for removing self
Message-ID: <41A1CBC76FDECC42B67946519C6677A9018C2F61@pippin.int.etrials.com>

> begin with just a period as in ".5".  What are your thoughts?

If you want to cut the typing down further you don't have to use "self" you can use :

class x:
   def __init__(s,val):
      s.val = val

   def display(s):
      print s.val

That's only one more character than your "." and it doesn't require any changes to Python. 
Of course, you'd be breaking with the tradition of naming the instance as "self" but so would your magic "." method.

If you find yourself typing "self" a lot you can also do :

s = self
s.doSomething()

Sometimes python asks us to do things that are against our sensibilities (whitespace comes to mind) but once we try it for a while we find our knee-jerk reaction to change it was simply misplaced.

Live with the language a bit, use it a bit, give python the chance to change you before you try to change python.

Use python for a week or two more and see what I mean.








> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brent W. Hughes [mailto:brent.hughes at comcast.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 6:01 PM
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Proposal for removing self
> 
> 
> When doing object-oriented stuff, it bothers me to have to 
> type "self" so
> many times.  I propose that Python allow the programmer to 
> optionally type
> ".variable" instead of "self.variable" to mean the same 
> thing.  Of course,
> the interpreter would have to be more careful about detecting 
> floats that
> begin with just a period as in ".5".  What are your thoughts?
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 


From max at alcyone.com  Sat Aug 14 19:05:19 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:05:19 -0700
Subject: !wtf ellipsis
References: <pan.2004.08.13.12.54.24.553466@yahoo.com>
	<voiqh0p0ce6ui77498vqdabcrl7asro33i@4ax.com>
	<b840abf4.0408141235.6f675f0f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <411E9AAF.78EE96C6@alcyone.com>

AdSR wrote:

> It's funny, I always understood ellipsis ('...') as a kind of a
> wildcard or abbreviation mark, rather than absence mark. For example,
> you'd write:
> 
> a[1], a[2], ..., a[N]
> 
> which means "all values from a[1] to a[N]" or something like that.
> 
> But then of course it's just a symbol...

It's an indication that something was removed or abbreviated.  In
mathematics, it has the same meaning, but it's often used in the context
of showing a pattern and then removing unnecessary elements (after the
pattern is obvious), so it tends to get the implied meaning of "and so
on."

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ Suffering is a journey which has an end.
    -- Matthew Fox


From tdelaney at avaya.com  Wed Aug 25 18:39:29 2004
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy))
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:39:29 +1000
Subject: Subclassing built-in types
Message-ID: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01DCF7F6@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

Emiliano Molina wrote:

> Emiliano Molina wrote:
> --- some stuff I was confused about ---
>> Where can I find that documentation?  I've looked through the manual
>> but can't find anything relevant.  Google searches bring up articles
>> that talk about code as described in my first example but I can't
>> find anything like the second.
> 
> I received no answers to my post (not complaining) and I am curious as
> to wether it was a silly question or if there was no answer because
> what I wanted to know is not documented.

I see a useful reply from Fredrik right there ...

Tim Delaney


From flupke at nonexistingdomain.com  Wed Aug 18 07:40:58 2004
From: flupke at nonexistingdomain.com (flupke)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:40:58 GMT
Subject: anonymous function?
Message-ID: <efHUc.217674$UI5.10803319@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

Hi,

i'm not sure what the exact type of function is called
for what i'm trying to do but here goes:

------ code -----
def OnClick(self, event):
     ...
     elif ( id == ID_BUTTON_CHECK ):
         if __debug__: print " Check pushed"
         minutes = self.check_time.GetValue()
         t = None
         if ( self.check.GetLabel() == "check" ):
             if ( minutes != "" ):
                 self.handleCommand("Check %s minutes\n" % str(minutes))
                 def sendCheckCommand():
                     self.connection.message("CHECK")
                 t = threading.Timer(10.0, sendCheckCommand() )
                 t.start() printed
                 self.updateGUI("CHECK_WITH_TIME")
------ code -----

The relevant code being the sendCheckCommand() function declared in the
OnClick function. This code starts a timer that should execute
self.connection.message("CHECK") every 30 seconds. I think this is an
anonymous (in Java it is) function and is really not meant to be a
"real" class function. But when i execute the code, it works 1 time but 
the second time it doesn't work anymore and i get this error:

Exception in thread Thread-2:
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "C:\Python23\lib\threading.py", line 436, in __bootstrap
     self.run()
   File "C:\Python23\lib\threading.py", line 544, in run
     self.function(*self.args, **self.kwargs)
TypeError: 'NoneType' object is not callable

How can i accomplish this?

Thanks
Benedict


From nomail at nospam.no  Sat Aug  7 14:53:47 2004
From: nomail at nospam.no (Dominic)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 20:53:47 +0200
Subject: Dynamic Class Creation
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1266.1091788221.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1266.1091788221.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cf38e5$7h9$2@news.uni-kl.de>


I have written a module which
creates classes dynamically,
but some Python tools, e.g.
PyChecker crash if they try
to analyse the source.
So be careful!

Ciao,
  Dominic


From frithiof.jensen at die_spammer_die.ericsson.com  Thu Aug 19 04:36:22 2004
From: frithiof.jensen at die_spammer_die.ericsson.com (Frithiof Andreas Jensen)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:36:22 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<cfvi4r$bn7$1@news.tue.nl> <2ohpksF94tajU3@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <cg1okr$g7h$1@newstree.wise.edt.ericsson.se>


"Reinhold Birkenfeld" <reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net> wrote in
message news:2ohpksF94tajU3 at uni-berlin.de...


> I certainly wouldn't call these shockingly horrible bunches of IE-tags
> thrown together with the intention of being regarded as "cool" a
"website".

They are retro-sites; just like 70's apparel became fashion again, so will
those sites!!

My 10 year-old daughter should have a future well set out in web design
given her liking of Purple backgrounds enriched with Pink, Yellow and Green
text - sometimes adorned with the "Blink" attribute!

muahahahahahhaaa




From tom.harris at opdicom.com  Thu Aug  5 20:22:38 2004
From: tom.harris at opdicom.com (Tom Harris)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:22:38 +1000
Subject: Getting memory usage of Python objects
Message-ID: <000101c47b4b$7b5afa20$38010a0a@projectlabhome.local>

Greetings
 
I have a script that runs for several hours on an XP box. During this
time its memory usage grows to absurd amounts. I have checked the code
and it's not obvious what is growing. Is there a way that I can access
the memory usage of each object so that I could find out which one is
too large?
 
Regards
 
TomH <tom.harris at opdicom.com>
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From joshway_without_spam at myway.com  Wed Aug 18 17:36:44 2004
From: joshway_without_spam at myway.com (JCM)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 21:36:44 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Embedding Python in Python
References: <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
	<7xu0v0l2be.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<cg09ne$ma7$1@fred.mathworks.com>
	<7x3c2kkzn8.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<cg0bjf$78b$1@fred.mathworks.com>
	<mailman.1899.1092859599.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cg0dv0$no$1@fred.mathworks.com>
	<mailman.1903.1092863449.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cg0i5c$lrc$1@fred.mathworks.com>

Jack Diederich <jack at performancedrivers.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 08:25:04PM +0000, JCM wrote:
>> Jack Diederich <jack at performancedrivers.com> wrote:
>> > On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 07:44:47PM +0000, JCM wrote:
>> ...
>> >> I don't think it's as difficult as you think.  Your snippet of code
>> >> would be rejected by the rules I suggested.  You'd also want to
>> >> prohibit other builtins like compile, execfile, input, reload, vars,
>> >> etc.
>> >> 
>> > foo = "ev" + "al"
>> > e = vars()['__builtins__'].__dict__[foo]
>> > print e('2+2')
>> 
>> Also would be rejected by my original set of rules (can't use
>> __dict__).  But I'd disallow vars too.

> Google groups for this topic, it's been dead horse kicked.
> You would have to eliminate getarr too and any C func that can
> result in an infite loop.  

Infinite loops (and other resource use) are a different story, not
addressed by source code inspection.  I worked on a project which
needed to run untrusted code, and we dealt with the infinite-loop
situation by always running untrusted code on the main thread and
signalling it if it took too long to execute (this worked on unix--I
don't know what you'd do on Windows).  I realize this could leave data
in a bad state.  Infinite loops are harder to deal with.


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 05:11:33 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:11:33 +1000
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <cg4e1l$ie6$1@news.tue.nl>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com> <cg4e1l$ie6$1@news.tue.nl>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082002113120e90c@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:51:00 +0200, Gerrit Muller
<gerrit.muller at embeddedsystems.nl> wrote:
> I miss the option to _not_introduce decorators at all, at least at this
> moment. 

That's because that's not an option that's on the table. Stating you don't
want them won't achieve anything at all.


From jason at injektilo.org  Tue Aug 24 14:57:58 2004
From: jason at injektilo.org (Jason Diamond)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:57:58 -0700
Subject: fun with unicode files
In-Reply-To: <it9sv1-tj9.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
References: <6579x7eo.fsf@python.net> <it9sv1-tj9.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
Message-ID: <f8adneKBk6olErbcRVn-qA@adelphia.com>

Roger Binns wrote:
> Here is my own more complete implementation:
> 
> http://www.bitpim.org/pyxr/c/projects/bitpim/common.py.html#0286

When I do import encodings.utf_32 on Python 2.3.3, I get an ImportError. 
What verson of Python are you using where that works?

I can't find any documentation of the encodings module in the Python 
Library Reference. Where can I read more about it?

-- Jason


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug  6 18:32:35 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 18:32:35 -0400
Subject: Killing children
In-Reply-To: <878ycsvuhq.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
References: <87smb0w4ln.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
	<mailman.1297.1091814690.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<87d624vxt2.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
	<2eidnefxXqX3co7cRVn-tA@powergate.ca>
	<878ycsvuhq.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
Message-ID: <2sqdne3un4mZmoncRVn-qg@powergate.ca>

Laura Conrad wrote:
>>>>>>"Peter" == Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> writes:
> 
> 
>     Peter> Laura Conrad wrote:
>     >> p = os.spawnl(os.P_NOWAIT, "/usr/bin/python", "python", "hobo.py", '/dev/ttyS0', 5)
>     >> print p
>     >> os.system("ps")
>     >> time.sleep(60)
>     >> os.system("kill %d" % p)
> 
>     Peter> This suggests that you believe the return value from os.spawnl() is
>     Peter> actually the PID.  Unfortunately that doesn't appear to be the case
>     Peter> on Windows.  See the note in the doc-string for my code sample from
>     Peter> the previous post (on Windows spawn* actually returns a "handle",
>     Peter> not the PID itself, and apparently turning the one into the other
>     Peter> is non-trivial).
> 
> So you think os.kill(p) might be the way to kill it?   But does anyone
> know how to get it started right?

Uh... maybe?  I think I just got out of my depth here... is Python
compiled specially for cygwin, or is it the standard Windows Python
that is involved?

If the latter, which I now doubt for some reason, then yes, os.kill()
can kill things spawn with spawnl/v/p/whatever provided that you use
the fake os.kill that I provided before, because os.kill doesn't
normally exist on Windows.

-Peter


From avera at coes.org.pe  Mon Aug  9 19:46:02 2004
From: avera at coes.org.pe (Alberto Vera)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 18:46:02 -0500
Subject: ActiveConnection doesn't work  ...?
Message-ID: <000a01c47e6b$07fdf1e0$1603a8c0@pc22>

Hello:

I tried to use these lines:
----------------------------------------------------
import win32com.client
conn = win32com.client.Dispatch('ADODB.Connection')
Cmd1 = win32com.client.Dispatch('ADODB.Command')
conn.ConnectionString = "Provider=...."
conn.Open
Cmd1.ActiveConnection = conn      #Error!!!
---------------------------------------------------
But, I got an error in:  Cmd1.ActiveConnection = conn.
Visual Basic can work with Cmd1.ActiveConnection. Is it possible in Python?

Regards
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From john at grulic.org.ar  Tue Aug 31 17:24:42 2004
From: john at grulic.org.ar (John Lenton)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 18:24:42 -0300
Subject: has_method
In-Reply-To: <41347973.7080006@geochemsource.com>
References: <41347973.7080006@geochemsource.com>
Message-ID: <20040831212442.GC7439@grulic.org.ar>

On Tue, Aug 31, 2004 at 03:13:23PM +0200, Gandalf wrote:
> 
>  Hi All!
> 
> Does anyone knows how to tell if an object has a method with a given 
> name? How can I access that method?
> 
> For attributes, it is easy:
> 
> class A(object):
>    a = 12
>    b = 'Python'
> 
> a = A()
> a.__dict__.has_key('a')   # True
> a.__dict__.has_key('b')   # True
> a.__dict__.has_key('c')   # False
> 
> But it won't work for methods. Thanks in advance.

try this:

    method = getattr(a, 'a', None)
    if callable(method):
        method(args)


also consider using getattr with a default, or just plain hasattr,
instead of accessing the dict directly. Accessing __dict__ like that
is a bad idea with few exceptions.


-- 
John Lenton (john at grulic.org.ar) -- Random fortune:
Writing is turning one's worst moments into money.
		-- J.P. Donleavy
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From elbertlev at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  6 15:54:41 2004
From: elbertlev at hotmail.com (Elbert Lev)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 12:54:41 -0700
Subject: Standalone Python Programs...
References: <ceugpq$35rs$1@netnews.upenn.edu>
	<-aSdndbo7ry5E47cRVn-ig@comcast.com>
	<41139ac9$0$65604$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <9418be08.0408061154.2999a296@posting.google.com>

> > I can't speak to Linux installations because I have always
> > just used the Python installation already there.
> 
> Yup.

Instalation is there, but not the third party packages.


From d+pylist at nospamplease.trit.org  Thu Aug 12 01:03:07 2004
From: d+pylist at nospamplease.trit.org (Dima Dorfman)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 05:03:07 +0000
Subject: using os.major
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.11.19.57.41.169115@yahoo.com>
References: <pan.2004.08.11.19.57.41.169115@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040812050307.GC10478@trit.org>

John Doe <atterdan at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Does anyone understand what a 'raw device number' is with respect
> os.major() and os.minor()
> [...]
> There seems to be something related to fileno, but that never returns the
> value I know is true. In particular, Linux /dev/fd0 is (2/0).

The raw device number isn't the file descriptor number; it's the
device ID, such as those returned by stat in the st_dev and st_rdev
fields:

>>> st = os.stat('/dev/fd/0')
>>> os.major(st.st_rdev)
22
>>> os.minor(st.st_rdev)
0

The documentation for os.stat mentions st_rdev, but it doesn't call it
the "raw" device number. The FreeBSD documentation is about evenly
split on calling it the "raw device number" or the "device ID", but
Posix uses the latter, and I think that makes more sense. There's
nothing raw about this value; I think it's only "raw" compared to
internal kernel structures, where a device could be a pointer to
struct instead of an integer (it's certainly not more raw than st_dev,
which has the same type).

Dima.


From evenprimes at gmail.com  Tue Aug  3 10:24:15 2004
From: evenprimes at gmail.com (Chris Cioffi)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 10:24:15 -0400
Subject: Reasoning behind nested scope
In-Reply-To: <20040803112624.2CCBD1E4002@bag.python.org>
References: <20040803112624.2CCBD1E4002@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <f03f4fdf04080307245f4c09a9@mail.gmail.com>

Why would you want to do this?  The whole point of a nested function,
I thought, was to encapsulate some code in the surrounding function,
usually to make the surrounding function clearer.  If the nested
function is of wider utility it should just be a module level
function.  (Possibly of the quasi private variety Python offers.)

Chris

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:26:15 +0100, Andy Baker <andy at andybak.net> wrote:
[snip]
> (On a side note is there any way to call a nested function from outside the
> parent? I was kind of expecting nested functions to be addressable through
> dot notation like methods are but I can see why that wouldn't be quite
> right. This might be a better question for the tutor list...)
> 
> Andy Baker



-- 
Still searching for an even prime > 2!


From onurb at xiludom.gro  Sun Aug  8 14:37:04 2004
From: onurb at xiludom.gro (bruno modulix)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 20:37:04 +0200
Subject: Newbie Question about Python as a language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.938.1091131645.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <ca9de3e2.0407280912.499f09b4@posting.google.com>	<mailman.883.1091036656.5135.python-list@python.org>	<41095455$0$24067$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<mailman.938.1091131645.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <41167466$0$32075$636a15ce@news.free.fr>

Dave Brueck a ?crit :
> bruno modulix wrote:
> 
>> Dave Brueck a ?crit :
>>
>>> Dave Guenthner wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello. I write a lot of small programs mostly in Visual Basic 6 or
>>>> VBScript using WSH 5.6 for any number of purposes.  I am curious on
>>>> what Python does that say Java doesn't do?
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>>>> For example, I would
>>>> definetly need some type if Visual Development Environment.
>>>
>>> If your development style _requires_ a visual dev environment then 
>>> Python may not be for you - it doesn't have IDEs as mature as e.g. 
>>> Microsoft Visual Studio. 
>>
>> It does :
>> http://www.activestate.com/Products/Visual_Python/
> 
> 
> Nope - that doesn't quite cut it. Granted, I may be misunderstanding 
> what the OP is asking for, but I assume that since he was using VB and 
> is asking about a *visual* development environment, he is probably 
> looking for the ability to visually build GUIs (and have tight 
> integration - auto-code generation for it and all).
> AFAIK Visual Python doesn't have this - yeah it's a plugin for a more 
> mature IDE, but it doesn't enjoy the same level of support in that IDE 
> as e.g. C++. Other Python tools are getting there, but they aren't as 
> mature yet.
> 

IDE and RAD are two distinct things IMHO (well, I may be a bit biased 
since I use Emacs as an IDE and mostly write CLI and Web apps...), so my 
answer was on the fact that you can use MS visual studio *IDE* with Python.

Now for the RAD part, since the OP was also talking about WHS and Java, 
I did assume that he was not specifically looking for a RAD tool. But I 
may of course be plain wrong...

<OP>
If you're looking for RAD tools, there are :
- BoaConstructor (? la Delphi),
- PythonCard (? la HyperCard),
- wxGlade (RAD only, no code editing or whatsoever)

They all work with wxPython/wxWidget, which is a mature C++ free 
cross-platform (Windows/X11/MacOS X) GUI toolkit.
</OP>

HTH
Bruno


From grante at visi.com  Wed Aug 25 13:04:41 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 17:04:41 GMT
Subject: Getting at the bits of a 32-bit integer
References: <85b54e91.0408231552.75f85727@posting.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.23.20.16.40.406025@jerf.org>
	<412a98f4$0$65569$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<412cb279$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
	<412cb407$0$62953$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<mailman.2367.1093451893.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<412cc43d$0$8084$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <412cc6a9$0$8090$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-25, Grant Edwards <grante at visi.com> wrote:

>> I'm very interested in this module which implements fixed-length 
>> integers. Do you perhaps have some reference to it? I tried to google 
>> for it, but couldn't come up with distinct enough keywords.
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=m3pt6qpzan.fsf%40pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk&rnum=10
>
> I think that automatic coercion of regular Python integer
> values to fixed "Field" objects would make it simpler to use.

Oops, I may have been thinking of this one:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=ad052e5c.0407161348.42abb996%40posting.google.com&rnum=28

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  ... he dominates the
                                  at               DECADENT SUBWAY SCENE.
                               visi.com            


From davidf at sjsoft.com  Mon Aug 30 12:37:33 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 18:37:33 +0200
Subject: Installation of mod_python 3.1.3 on Apache 2.0.50 on Windows
 Me/Win2k
In-Reply-To: <39cbe663.0408300749.2ef5bc81@posting.google.com>
References: <39cbe663.0408290850.14452ab9@posting.google.com>
	<pBtYc.6594$6o3.4300@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<39cbe663.0408300749.2ef5bc81@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgvl4d$209$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

Piet wrote:
> "Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<pBtYc.6594$6o3.4300 at newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> 
>>Why not post this to the mod_python mailing list??
> 
> The error looked like an error in some python installation scripts, so
> it seemed to me more "pythonic" than "apachic". Anyways, thanks for
> the hint.
> Piet

mod_python is a bridge between apache and python, so it contains both 
Python code and C code. the mod_python list is a good place to get help, 
I would recommend joining it

Cheers
David


From kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no  Fri Aug 27 08:55:26 2004
From: kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Torgrim Homme)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:55:26 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>

[Andrew Durdin]:
>
>   The whole topic of explicit[*] end-of-block markers was brought up
>   and discussed at great length in May 1994:
>   
>   http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=9405061919.AA03028%40vicorp.com

thank you for the reference!  I'm happy to see that Guido wasn't
strictly opposed to such a feature 10 years ago.

>   Regardless of history, it looks to me like your problem could be
>   better solved by modifying your emacs mode to consider whitespace
>   more correctly -- AFAICT there is no reason why it should ever
>   pick up the logging line in your example and indent it to the same
>   level as the else: block.

how can Emacs tell?  if I press TAB and thus ask Emacs to re-indent
the line, that's what it will do.  arguably, the correct fix is to
disable the "clever" re-indentation code of Emacs since it's too easy
to fool it, but this makes coding more awkward in other cases.  it
also doesn't solve cut-n-paste errors.
-- 
Kjetil T.


From bulatov at engr.orst.edu  Sun Aug  1 00:49:00 2004
From: bulatov at engr.orst.edu (Yaroslav Bulatov)
Date: 31 Jul 2004 21:49:00 -0700
Subject: Microbenchmark: Summing over array of doubles
Message-ID: <4d642979.0407312049.7a8aecab@posting.google.com>

I made an array of 10 million floats timed how long it takes to sum
the elements, here's what I got (millis):

gcc -O2:               21
Python with numarray:  104
Python with Numeric:   302
java:                  325 
gcc:                   348
Python with Psyco:     1317
Pure Python using sum: 2312
Pure Python:           5631

http://yaroslav.hopto.org/russianwiki/index.php/c-numeric-speed

numarray takes over Numeric at about 1100 floats

I'm doing intensive computation on arrays in Python, so if you have
suggestions on Python/C solutions that could push the envelope, please
let me know.

Yaroslav


From mwilson at the-wire.com  Wed Aug 25 10:50:15 2004
From: mwilson at the-wire.com (Mel Wilson)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:50:15 -0400
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
	<dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
Message-ID: <ncKLBls/KDbR089yn@the-wire.com>

In article <dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004 at reader0903.news.uu.net>,
Dave Opstad <dave.opstad at agfamonotype.com> wrote:
>In article <412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f at dread12.news.tele.dk>,
> Max M <maxm at mxm.dk> wrote:
>> That the sort() method returns a None is actually a pedagocical tool to
>> tell the programmer that the list is modified in place.
>>
>> If it had returned the list the programmer would later be surprised to
>> find that the list had been modified. It would seem like hard to find
>> nasty side effect. The way it is now is very explicit and easy to find out.
>
>But isn't the fact that the list is modified in place incidental to the
>fact of sorting? One is an implementation detail, and the other is the
>semantic meaning you're trying to express.

   It's not incidental to the fact that the original list is
"destroyed" by the sorting operation.

        Regards.        Mel.


From benevilent at optusnet.com.au  Tue Aug 10 07:34:30 2004
From: benevilent at optusnet.com.au (benevilent at optusnet.com.au)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 21:34:30 +1000
Subject: pickling extension types
Message-ID: <20040810213430.409f8248.benevilent@optusnet.com.au>

Hey,

I am creating an extension type in C for Python, which I want it such
that instances can be pickled. I basically want the functionality of the
'object' type such that subclasses of the type which I define, can
define methods including __getstate__ which will get called on
pickling/unpickling.

To do this I need to define the __reduce__ method. The __reduce__ method
in typeobject.c is exactly what I need for this task. Is there a way to
reuse this without copy-pasting the code?

Thanks,
Laurie


From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Wed Aug 25 11:31:32 2004
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:31:32 -0700
Subject: Getting at the bits of a 32-bit integer
In-Reply-To: <412a98f4$0$65569$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
References: <85b54e91.0408231552.75f85727@posting.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.23.20.16.40.406025@jerf.org>
	<412a98f4$0$65569$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <412cb279$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

Grant Edwards wrote:

>... That's a bit, um, conceited.  Somebody's got to twiddle all
> those low-level bits out there to provide the infrastructure
> that makes the world run.
> 
> I'm one of those people, and I need to do bit-twiddling quite
> often while implimenting various communications protocols.

If you are interested in such things, take a look at:

     http://members.dsl-only.net/~daniels/bits.html

It lets you do things like look at bit-ranges of (int, long, float)
and find things like msb, lsb, particular bits (bit) and
extract bit ranges.

-Scott David Daniels
Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org


From vinay_sajip at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Aug 24 10:12:17 2004
From: vinay_sajip at yahoo.co.uk (Vinay Sajip)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 07:12:17 -0700
Subject: request for logging SyslogHandler help
References: <pan.2004.08.22.13.37.53.10180@dougfort.com>
Message-ID: <2e37dc1.0408240612.2f24a17d@posting.google.com>

> I really like the Python logging module, and I've used it extensively,
> with good results. Now I have a requirement to add a SysLogHandler,  and
> it's just not working. It looks like the socket is connecting, but nothing
> comes out on the log. (Fedora Core 2 /var/log/messages)
> 
> The simplest of many configurations I have tried is included below.
> A FileHandler in the same config file works fine.
> 
> Does anyone have experience in this area? Do I need a  special format or 
> something?
> 
> [handler_syslog]
> class=handlers.SysLogHandler
> level=NOTSET
> formatter=verboseformat
> args=()

Please check that the syslog destination is the local machine
(localhost) and that it is configured to work through UDP, on the
standard syslog port (514). Also, try with a short message format not
containing newlines (I would guess that "verboseformat" might generate
large messages).

Best of luck,


Vinay Sajip


From news at nospamwillmcgugan.com  Wed Aug 18 06:33:03 2004
From: news at nospamwillmcgugan.com (Will McGugan)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:33:03 +0100
Subject: case insensitive comparison operator ?
Message-ID: <41233060$0$198$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>

What is the best way to do a simple case insensitive comparison in Python?

As far as I can tell, the only option is to do str1.lowercase() == 
str2.lowercase() (or uppercase). But that strikes me as quite verbose 
for such a common operation, and possibly inneficient since it would 
create and destroy 2 tempory objects. Perhaps there should be a 
dedicated function in the string object, or (+1) an operator?

Apologies if I have missed something. I haven't done a great deal of 
work int Python yet.


Will McGugan


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 13:03:55 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 03:03:55 +1000
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
In-Reply-To: <2ouldeFf0ujnU2@uni-berlin.de>
References: <mailman.2154.1093185852.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2ouldeFf0ujnU2@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408231003f7e181e@mail.gmail.com>

On 23 Aug 2004 16:47:42 GMT, Oliver Fromme <olli at haluter.fromme.com> wrote:

> Aren't decorators just functions that are applied to the
> function definition?  Then how about "apply"?  

It's already the name of an (now deprecated) builtin. It won't
becoming a keyword, I suspect ever.


From martindemello at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  3 02:01:29 2004
From: martindemello at yahoo.com (Martin DeMello)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 06:01:29 GMT
Subject: Newbie: pywin problem
References: <rCrPc.154159$Mr4.50525@pd7tw1no>
	<BcAPc.29745$K53.22947@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <ZSFPc.165181$ek5.120458@pd7tw2no>

Neil Hodgson <nhodgson at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> over the app and not be properly clipped. I'm not sure what you want to
> achieve. If it is just opening another window within the environment from

I have a C++/MFC app with an embedded python interpreter (pyacad to be
precise: http://pyacad.sourceforge.net/), and I'm experimenting to see
if I can open a python window as a child of the intellicad window.

> code, calling something in the template would be better. The "Python
> Programming on Win32" book gives an example of adding a new document type
> and view to PythonWin. There is a mailing list for Win32 Python issues at
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32

Thanks, I'll sign up.

martin


From paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it  Tue Aug 24 13:05:58 2004
From: paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it (Paolo Veronelli)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:05:58 +0200
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <412B7576.3040302@yahoo.it>



Paul Morrow wrote:
> ...that they warrant an entirely new syntax?  It seems that they are 
> very similar in a very significant way --- they alter the default 
> behavior of something.  IMO, it's not a stretch to say that they 
> 'parallel' metaclasses; that they are to functions/methods what 
> metaclasses are to classes.  So why don't they share a similar syntax?
> 
>    class Foo:
>       """ This is the docstring for class Foo. """
>       __metaclass__ = M
>       # body of class goes here
> 
> 
>    def baz():
>       """ This is the docstring for function baz. """
>       __features__ = synchronized, memoized
>       # body of function goes here.
> 
> 
> I personally find the above baz function aesthetically appealing.  Does 
> anyone else feel this way?  
 >
 > Paul

Obviously me,but it's possible doors are closed,too many heads try to 
solve something that I start to think show a "bug" in python 
architecture.I mean,does ruby need to throw up so much dust to add such 
a feature?Or it just allow people to "build"  language syntaxes?

	Paolino







From ben at benlast.com  Wed Aug 18 02:31:47 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 07:31:47 +0100
Subject: Flython?
In-Reply-To: <e9570f37.0408170732.14fcc7ad@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPCECHCEAA.ben@benlast.com>

Oddly enough, I've just acquired a need (translation: had a requirement
dropped on me) for a certain amount of generation of Flash from Python.  If
anyone's got any pointers to code, however non-project-grade, I'd be happy
to take a hack at cleaning it up and re-releasing it in return for the time
saved :)

humbly yours
ben

> -----Original Message-----
> From: python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org
> [mailto:python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org]On Behalf Of
> Graham Fawcett
> Sent: 17 August 2004 17:35
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Re: Flython?
> I've written some code (twice, I think) to generate SWF from Python.
> Didn't include ActionScript, but it's all there in the SWF spec, so it
> shouldn't be *too* hard to implement. My code was less than fast, and
> was highly specialized to do a few things that I was interested in
> (and ignored the rest). If there's interest, I'll dig it out, though
> it's far from project-grade code and is possibly broken. The toughest
> part was just grokking the SWF spec, and building some Pythonic
> primitives that can output SWF tags. Simply put, writing SWF from
> Python isn't rocket science. But of course, you want more than just
> that...


______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
______________________________________________________________________


From robey at slash_dev_slash_random.org  Wed Aug 18 15:56:04 2004
From: robey at slash_dev_slash_random.org (Robey Holderith)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:56:04 -0500
Subject: Embedding Python in Python
References: <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
	<mailman.1890.1092854122.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.18.19.56.03.842836@slash_dev_slash_random.org>

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:35:21 -0400, Phil Frost wrote:

> You probably want something like this:
> 
> globalDict = {}
> exec(stringOfPythonCodeFromUser, globalDict)
> 
> globalDict is now the global namespace of whatever was in
> stringOfPythonCodeFromUser, so you can grab values from that and
> selectivly import them into your namespace.
> 

So using this (with a little additional reading) it looks like I
can do this:

globalDict = {'__builtins__': <my modules here>}
exec(<pythonCodeFromUser>, globalDict)

And that this will disallow both importing of new modules and direct
access to my namespace.  It will however allow access to the

Would this be secure?

Paul, what's your take on this?

-Robey

> On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 02:26:00PM -0500, Robey Holderith wrote:
>> 
>> Anyone know a good way to embed python within python?
>> 
>> Now before you tell me that's silly, let me explain
>> what I'd like to do.
>> 
>> I'd like to allow user-defined scriptable objects.  I'd
>> like to give them access to modify pieces of my classes.
>> I'd like to disallow access to pretty much the rest of
>> the modules.
>> 
>> Any ideas/examples?
>> 
>> -Robey




From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Mon Aug 23 19:50:13 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 23:50:13 GMT
Subject: PEP318: radical notion
References: <Xns954E72EC48C5Earienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>
Message-ID: <movki0dfhq6ivor05i65mfamriqdv9ua6s@4ax.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 18:12:57 GMT, Arien Malec
<arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE> wrote:

>
>The problem with PEP318 is that it is too powerful, and tries to do too 
>much. It is a sledgehammer for attacking three problems:
>
>1) Metadata, a la Java and C#
>2) class & static method defs
>3) Arbitrary post-definitional transformations of functions.

The problem as you see it was, I think, was very well put forth by
Chris King early in the game, and then promptly bypassed.

Guido, as late as May or June, I think, suggested that no new syntax
be added to 2.4.  But then backed off that position, to the point that
discussion about anything other than *which* new syntax to empower the
sledgehammer, has become anti-social, or something.

Perhaps Guido could not answer the question to himself, or anybody
else, as to - no new syntax in 2.4, pending what.

Folks a lot more qualified than myself have expressed an opinion that
the reprecussions here are not likely to be pretty. And been booed off
the stage, and considerately left the stage - it not being their
problem in the end, in anycase. 

So it is my opinion the weight of discussion on python-list at this
point does not accurately reflect the weight of sentiment on the
issue.  Most folks don't like being anti-social.  

I allow myself to be. Sometimes.

Art
  
>
>Arien



From dave.opstad at agfamonotype.com  Wed Aug 25 10:30:53 2004
From: dave.opstad at agfamonotype.com (Dave Opstad)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 07:30:53 -0700
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
Message-ID: <dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>

In article <412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f at dread12.news.tele.dk>,
 Max M <maxm at mxm.dk> wrote:

> It is a design philosophy. Explicit is better than implicit.
> 
> what would you expect a_list.sort() to return?
> 
> If it returns a list, you would expect it to be a sorted copy of the 
> list. Not the list itself.
> 
> But for performance reasons the list is sorted in place.
> 
> So if you modify the list in place, why should sort() then return the list?
> 
> That the sort() method returns a None is actually a pedagocical tool to 
> tell the programmer that the list is modified in place.
> 
> If it had returned the list the programmer would later be surprised to 
> find that the list had been modified. It would seem like hard to find 
> nasty side effect. The way it is now is very explicit and easy to find out.

But isn't the fact that the list is modified in place incidental to the 
fact of sorting? One is an implementation detail, and the other is the 
semantic meaning you're trying to express.

In my opinion, it would make more sense to have:

[1, 3, 4, 2].sort() return [1, 2, 3, 4]
(1, 3, 4, 2).sort() return (1, 2, 3, 4)
'1342'.sort() return '1234'

and so on. As it is, we have sort working on lists but not on immutable 
sequences, which is inconvenient at times.

Just my tuppence.
Dave


From nospam at nowhere.hu  Sat Aug  7 16:20:31 2004
From: nospam at nowhere.hu (Miklós)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 22:20:31 +0200
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu> <cf3b56$gt6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>
Message-ID: <cf3cvt$d3i$1@namru.matavnet.hu>

"Jarek Zgoda" <jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl> wrote in message
news:cf3b56$gt6$1 at nemesis.news.tpi.pl...
> Mikl?s wrote:
>
> > Yes, I'm thorougly annoyed with creeping featurism.
>
> Man, you steal my thoughts!
>
> Most of features that made into Python after 2.1 are "just that", like
> "nobody has it, so we should" or "somebody has it, so we would too". The
> only thing I welcomed in 2.3 was some interpreter speedup, not new
features.
>
> Is it really so much needed feature, that "clean, compact and readable"
> rule should be broken? Damn, to hell with decorators, noone I know even
> knows what it can be good for.
>
> Come on, guys, fix real problems like interpreter thread safety, improve
> performance, don't make us, "real-world software developers", screaming
> with every new release, please.
>

Yes, this was exactly my point. Performance and GIL. Those are problems.
And problems must be solved.  After that add features... if they are really
needed.

Mikl?s


> --
> Jarek Zgoda
> http://jpa.berlios.de/




From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Fri Aug  6 06:52:37 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 06 Aug 2004 12:52:37 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no>
	<ceu67e$ioa$00$1@news.t-online.com>
	<HBF.20040805npas@bombur.uio.no>
	<cev7rn$me7$01$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040806aoi5@bombur.uio.no>

Peter Otten wrote:
>Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
>>Peter Otten wrote:
>>>Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
>>> 
>>> Why would you reintroduce ambiguity with your s-prefixed
>>> strings?
>> 
>> For programs that work with non-Unicode output devices or files and
>> know which character set they use.  Which is quite a lot of programs.
> 
> I'd say a lot of programs work with non-unicode, but many don't know what
> they are doing - i. e. you cannot move them into an environment with a
> different encoding (if you do they won't notice).

True, but for them it would probably be simpler to not use the str7bit
declaration, or to explicitly declare str7bit:False for the entire file.

>>> The long-term goal would be unicode throughout, IMHO.
>> 
>> Whose long-term goal for what?  For things like Internet communication,
>> fine.  But there are lot of less 'global' applications where other
>> character encodings make more sense.
> 
> Here we disagree. Showing the right image for a character should be
> the job of the OS and should safely work cross-platform.

Yes.  What of it?

Programs that show text still need to know which character set the
source text has, so it can pass the OS the text it expects, or send a
charset directive to the OS, or whatever.

> Why shouldn't I be able to store a file with a greek or chinese name?

If you want an OS that allows that, get an OS which allows that.

> I wasn't able to quote Martin's
> surname correctly for the Python-URL. That's a mess that should be cleaned
> up once per OS rather than once per user. I don't see how that can happen
> without unicode (only). Even NASA blunders when they have to deal with
> meters and inches.

Yes, there are many non-'global' applications too where Unicode is
desirable.  What of it?

Just because you want Unicode, why shouldn't I be allowed to use
other charcater encodings in cases where they are more practical?

For example, if one uses character set ns_4551-1 - ASCII with {|}[\]
replaced with ??????, sorting by simple byte ordering will sort text
correctly.  Unicode text _can't_ be sorted correctly, because of
characters like '?': Swedish '?' should match Norwegian '?' and sort
with that, while German '?' should not match '?' and sorts with 'o'.

>> In any case, a language's both short-term and long-term goals should be
>> to support current programming, not programming like it 'should be done'
>> some day in the future.
> 
> Well, Python's integers already work like they 'should be done'.

And they can be used that way now.

> I'm no
> expert, but I think Java is closer to the 'real thing' concerning strings.

I don't know Java.

> Perl 6 is going for unicode, if only to overcome the limititations of their
> operator set (they want the yen symbol as a zipping operator because it
> looks like a zipper :-). 

I don't know Perl 6, but Perl 5 is an excellent example of how not do to
this.  So is Emacs' MULE, for that matter.

I recently had to downgrade to perl5.004 when perl5.8 broke my programs.
They worked fine until they were moved to a machine where someone had
set up the locale to use UTF-8.  Then Perl decided that my data, which
has nothing at all to do with the locale, was Unicode data.  I tried to
insert 'use bytes', but that didn't work.  It does seem to work in newer
Perl versions, but it's not clear to me how many places I have to insert
some magic to prevent that.  Nor am I interested in finding out: I just
don't trust the people who released such a piece of crap to leave my
non-Unicode strings alone.  In particular since _most_ of the strings
are UTF-8, so I wonder if Perl might decide to do something 'friendly'
with them.

> You have to make compromises and I think an external checker would be
> the way to go in your case. If I were to add a switch to Python's
> string handling it would be "all-unicode".

Meaning what?

> But it may well be that I would curse it after the first real-world
> use...

-- 
Hallvard


From vronskij at post.sk  Fri Aug 20 04:36:01 2004
From: vronskij at post.sk (vronskij at post.sk)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 01:36:01 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <mailman.1885.1092846489.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cg0beo$obh$4@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>
Message-ID: <903b3fba.0408200036.e3a1f6d@posting.google.com>

> Me too, I started programming rather late, when I was 26 and I realised
> that I will be unable to make (good) living as philosophy graduate,
> specialized in medieval ethics (st. Thomas, Duns et al.). This makes me
> "young software developer" still, as I program for 7 years effectively.
> ;)

Than you have something others might not have.  A motivation ...

jan bodnar


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 09:31:55 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:31:55 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <cgkooa$3lb$4@sea.gmane.org>

Arthur wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 21:05:46 +1000, Anthony Baxter
> <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>def foo():
>>   __name__ = '%s_banana'%(__name__) 
>>
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what you are driving at here, but ...
> 
> Aa a practical matter, wouldn't it be nice to be able to use string
> substitution on a docstring placed in its usual location under def
> foo().
> 
> That I need to place my __doc__ under the function can't be considered
> a good thing, or intutive thing.
> 
> Sort of like having to do transformations after and under the function
> ;)
> 
> Art

Currently, you can change a doc string outside of a function, by 
modifying the function's __doc__ attribute

   >>> def foo():
   ...     """ I am foo """
   ...
   >>> foo.__doc__
   ' I am foo '
   >>> foo.__doc__ = foo.__doc__ + 'indeed'
   >>> foo.__doc__
   ' I am foo indeed'
   >>>

IMO, to change it inside of a function def should be (but isn't) as easy 
as...

   >>> def foo():
   ...     """ I am foo """
   ...     __doc__ = __doc__ + 'indeed'

Paul





From zathras at thwackety.com  Thu Aug 26 17:04:47 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:04:47 +0100
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgkeio$spo$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<7xhdqp967k.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<412e3ba4$0$92817$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>
	<7xk6vloc3j.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <412e556a$0$93997$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net>

Paul Rubin wrote:
> Michael Sparks <zathras at thwackety.com> writes:
>> It's very possible that we might end up with @pie syntax or nothing. (I
>> suspect the latter is very unlikely, but it's still possible)
> 
> I don't have a strong opinion of whether J2 is better than @pie or vice
> versa.  I dislike both.

I'm aware of that - I was largely just stating that IMO based on
everything I've read that there is more chance of @pie staying than
decorators being removed. Given the "Zen of Python" epithet saying
"In the face of ambiguity, refuse the temptation to guess." that to
me *is* a strike against J2. (assuming that it describes Guido's
philosophy well - something I don't know :)

>> My personal initial reaction to the syntax was "ugh", followed by
>> listening to arguments and deciding that I could live with @pie happily
>> (I do like perl after all so I've not got a huge aversion to
>> punctuation).
> 
> My problem with @pie is that it doesn't get enough mileage out of the
> @ character.  I'd almost rather use @ as a keyword introducer, like #
> in the prepreprocessor.  And of course, @pie should be useable on
> classes rather than just functions.

So why not put forward an alternative proposal? (*) If the proposal is good
someone might think "ooh, I like that", and implement it if you don't
feel like implementing it yourself - much like happened with J2 - it
was hardly my invention! :-)
   * If you have I must've missed it... sorry :-(

> I think decorators can do things that metaclasses can't.

Agreed, however in the absence of a decorators in the language people are
very likely to use metaclasses in their place for many of the tasks.

>> been used in earnest then IMHO option A1 should be chosen, via a
>> __future__ import. Whilst I'm obviously in favour of J2, option A1
>> strikes me as by _far_ the simplest to write or provide tools to
>> programmatically munge people's code if syntax does change. (Much
>> like the tools to remove unnecessary __future__ statements)
> 
> I really wouldn't worry too much about the effect on current syntax
> tools. 

I wasn't really thinking of current syntax tools - I was thinking about a
hypothetical situation:
   * Decorators incorporated via the __future__ mechanism
   * A subset of people use them in earnest
   * It's found that it would be useful to change the syntax whilst it's
     still in the experimental __future__ phase. (As might've happened but
     didn't with yield and generators)

In this scenario if you choose J2 then it's much harder for people to build
their own tools to change their code to the new syntax. (It can be done of
course, but it is harder) If you choose A1 then this is simpler. (This is
what I meant regarding the tool that remove unnecessary __future__
statements) 

Whether that situation matters to you depends on who you are :)

> Changing Python's syntax will have longer-lasting consequences than
> having to update some tools.

Absolutely.

Regards,


Michael.



From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Sun Aug 22 17:26:42 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 23:26:42 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no>
	<ceu67e$ioa$00$1@news.t-online.com>
	<HBF.20040805npas@bombur.uio.no>
	<cev7rn$me7$01$1@news.t-online.com>
	<HBF.20040806aoi5@bombur.uio.no>
	<cf7rhs$kqh$04$1@news.t-online.com>
	<HBF.20040822l1c0@bombur.uio.no> <412907C8.1090104@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040822gmmp@bombur.uio.no>

Martin v. L?wis wrote:
>Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
>>>> For example, if one uses character set ns_4551-1 - ASCII with {|}[\]
>>>> replaced with ??????, sorting by simple byte ordering will sort text
>>>> correctly.  Unicode text _can't_ be sorted correctly, because of
>>>> characters like '?': Swedish '?' should match Norwegian '?' and sort
>>>> with that, while German '?' should not match '?' and sorts with 'o'.
>>>
>>> Why not sort depending on the locale instead of ordinal values of the
>>> bytes/characters?
>> 
>> I'm in Norway.  Both Swedes and Germans are foreigners.
> 
> I agree with many things you said, but this example is bogus. If I
> (as a German) use ns_4551-1, sorting is simple - and incorrect, because,
> as you say, ? sorts with o in my language - yet the simple sorting of
> ns_4551-1 doesn't. So sorting is *not* simple with ns_4551-1.

Sorry, I seem to a left out a vital point here: I thought the correct -
or rather, least incorrect - ns_4551-1 character for German ? was o, not
?.  Then it works out.  Oh well, one learns something every day.  Time
to check if there are other examples, or if I can forget it...  Gotta
try an easy one - would you also translate German ? to ? rather than a?

> Likewise, sorting *is* possible with Unicode if you take the locale
> into account. The order of character doesn't have to be the numerical
> one, and, as you explain, it might even depend on the locale. So if
> you want a Swedish collaction, use a Swedish locale; if you want a
> German collation, use a German locale.

And if I want to get both right, I need a sort_name field which is
distinct from the display_name field.  There you would be lowis, while
the Swede T?rnquist would be t?rnquist.  Or maybe lowis\tl?wis or
something; a kind of private implementation of strxfrm().

-- 
Hallvard


From f.dimmling at remove-this.snafu.de  Mon Aug 30 05:21:58 2004
From: f.dimmling at remove-this.snafu.de (Friedrich Dimmling)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 11:21:58 +0200
Subject: Newby pango problem
Message-ID: <2pg9tfFjilreU1@uni-berlin.de>

Hi,

I would like to use pango.layout to display text in a pygtk2 project. 
However I could not manage to get the pango.layout object incorporated 
in my toplevel gtk.Window and have it displayed.

If anyone could help me either with a minimal example like 'Hello World' 
displayed in italics in an pango.layout or the URL to a tutorial where I 
can find the relevant infos (the PyGtk tutorial seems not to contain it, 
unless I'm really blind)

Friedrich


From http  Fri Aug 20 20:20:13 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 17:20:13 -0700
Subject: decorator J4 - any objections?
References: <cab22418.0408201006.16f163b2@posting.google.com>
	<H5ydnQFIZezZH7vcRVn-iQ@comcast.com>
	<7o3di0pt7o7e6cu3q3cbkls3g5asnn9n3u@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <7x4qmx735u.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Christos "TZOTZIOY" Georgiou <tzot at sil-tec.gr> writes:
> Why type decorators as a dictionary if you are not going to produce a
> dictionary?  Cause if you produce a dictionary, the order of the
> decorators is no longer guaranteed.

Does that matter?


From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Thu Aug 19 14:49:01 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:49:01 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1971.1092931173.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <1a608e98.725b9b40.8235400@po-d.temple.edu>
	<mailman.1971.1092931173.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10i9tfjp54ies80@corp.supernews.com>

Roman Suzi wrote:

>On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 brianc at temple.edu wrote:
>  
>
>>Am I a programmer yet?
>>    
>>
>
>I felt that I am a programmer after one year starting learning Basic (it was
>at age 14, 7th form IIRC). Before it happened at each nontrivial task I had a
>feeling that it's a wall in front of me! But after the change happened,
>programming became a matter of knowing syntax. It became universal skill, not
>depending on a programming language.
>  
>

I think I first started to think of myself as a programmer, rather than 
as someone who knew a bit of one or two programming languages, when I 
was reading the Gang of Four patterns book.  Many of the examples in 
that book were in Smalltalk, which I'd heard of but never seen before... 
and yet, I could (mostly) follow what was happening.  That really 
brought home the point that it's the algorithm, not the language, that 
matters.  (I *still* can't really follow most Perl code, though... ;P )

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From nospamjynyl at yahoo.co.nz  Sun Aug  1 15:02:31 2004
From: nospamjynyl at yahoo.co.nz (Peter)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 07:02:31 +1200
Subject: PyQt - clear widget for redraw
References: <410b4492@news.maxnet.co.nz> <ceg1gk$e0b$03$1@news.t-online.com>
	<410bf265@news.maxnet.co.nz> <ceiidi$u4k$05$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <410d0699@news.maxnet.co.nz>

Diez B. Roggisch wrote:
> Peter wrote:
>> Thanks, that works fine.
>> I just started using pyqt yesterday, and having trouble finding a
>> reference - most Qt stuff is written for c++.
> The neat thing on pyqt is that usually you can directly translate c++
> examples to python. So there is no need to have a separate documentation
> and other resources. The erase I looked up in the qt standard
> documentation.
 
Thanks
(and thanks to Jim for his response, too)

What I'm drawing is a series of lines (like a horizontal bar chart) and it
is updated several times a second.  The problem is that it goes too fast.
I tried the time.sleep() function, but then it doesn't draw properly.  It
seems to draw only part of the chart each time, and flickers.

Is there some way to make the display smoother?

TIA

Peter



From harald.koschinski at friatec.de  Fri Aug  6 04:30:38 2004
From: harald.koschinski at friatec.de (Harald)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 01:30:38 -0700
Subject: Pythondirector
Message-ID: <45654bdb.0408060030.41f1e973@posting.google.com>

Hi,
pythondirector seems to be the loadbalancer I was looking for. It
works and the balancingstrategie "leastconnsrr" is what I need. But
there is a minor bug: The number of "open connection" is sometimes
wrong so that the balancing becomes more and more wrong. Some Channels
have a permanent number of open requests of 1 - other channels go to
-1 (minus one) open requests. This happens after running for some
hours.
Is this a know bug or do I something wrong?

regards
Harald


From hans at zephyrfalcon.org  Sat Aug  7 16:49:46 2004
From: hans at zephyrfalcon.org (Hans Nowak)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 16:49:46 -0400
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
In-Reply-To: <cf3dna$891$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu> <cf3b56$gt6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>
	<m3y8kqpw2l.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
	<cf3dna$891$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>
Message-ID: <MfbRc.41$cq.23@fe39.usenetserver.com>

Jarek Zgoda wrote:

> You want to say "if you want any improvement, do it yourself"? Sure, 
> it's much better than Java's JCP, but expect 
> http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/F/fork.html if enough people will share 
> the same annoyance and anger.

I may hem and haw whenever a new feature is added that I consider redundant (as 
everybody reading my weblog knows well :-), but I would never support a fork.

--
Hans Nowak (hans at zephyrfalcon.org)
http://zephyrfalcon.org/



From peter at engcorp.com  Sat Aug 21 14:06:35 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:06:35 -0400
Subject: Has anyone implemented BASIC in Python?
In-Reply-To: <7x657c8jmn.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
References: <2oo13eFcj548U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<69cbbef2.0408210857.79439c35@posting.google.com>
	<7x657c8jmn.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <F5-dnWXt-twsE7rcRVn-hw@powergate.ca>

Paul Rubin wrote:
> has.temp2 at virgin.net (has) writes:
> 
>>>Has anyone ever tried implementing a simple unstructured BASIC dialect 
>>>in Python? I'm getting interested in language implementation, and 
>>>looking at a reasonably simple example like that could be pretty 
>>>interesting.
>>
>>Dunno about BASIC, but Ian Bicking has done Logo:
>>http://pylogo.sourceforge.net/
> 
> 
> Dunno about Logo but I did Forth just out of general perversity.
> I suppose I could post it.

Please do!


From tiredofspam at anyaccount.com  Sun Aug  1 01:59:34 2004
From: tiredofspam at anyaccount.com (Jim)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 22:59:34 -0700
Subject: PyQt - clear widget for redraw
References: <410b4492@news.maxnet.co.nz> <ceg1gk$e0b$03$1@news.t-online.com>
	<410bf265@news.maxnet.co.nz>
Message-ID: <hy%Oc.290$qB1.148@fe25.usenetserver.com>

Peter wrote:

> Diez B. Roggisch wrote:
>> 
>> Call erase on your widget. Or redraw a rectangle yourself.
>  
> Thanks, that works fine.
> I just started using pyqt yesterday, and having trouble finding a
> reference - most Qt stuff is written for c++.
> 
> Peter

Boudewijn Rempt's book _GUI Programming with Python: QT Edition_
might be helpful. It's available online at:

http://www.opendocspublishing.com/pyqt/

You can also post your questions at:
PyKDE mailing list    PyKDE at mats.imk.fraunhofer.de

sign up for the list at:
http://mats.imk.fraunhofer.de/mailman/listinfo/pykde

There's also a PyQt wiki at:
http://www.diotavelli.net/PyQtWiki
(it's fairly new and a little light on content, but there's already some
good stuff there).


Jim



From gregor.jan at NOSPAMquick.cz  Fri Aug 27 05:09:59 2004
From: gregor.jan at NOSPAMquick.cz (Jan Gregor)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:09:59 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: lambda ??
References: <6f402501.0408270000.31ad1455@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgmtp7$f6v$1@ns.felk.cvut.cz>

Python is little bit limited in lambda functions. In lisp I use lambda
functions in functionals (something like a map or reduce in python)
as a wrapper for functions with more than one argument.

Jan

On 2004-08-27, Michael Foord <fuzzyman at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm starting to read through the developer works article on Functional
> Programming - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/library/l-prog.html
>
> It starts by giving some basic examples using lambda. What I'm
> wondering is what's the actual difference between these two forms ?
>
> pr = lambda s:s
> *and*
> def pr(s):
>     return s
>
> Both bind the name 'pr' to a function object that does the same thing
> ?? I know that lambda functions can only be a single expression......
>
> Is it just a basic example (and so in this case there is no
> difference).. or am I missing something. (What's the point of an
> 'anonymous' function... if you give a name to it !!).
>
> Regards,
>
> Fuzzy
>
> http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlatnibots/pythonutils.html


From cjw at sympatico.ca  Sat Aug  7 14:01:45 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 14:01:45 -0400
Subject: Decorators
Message-ID: <7O8Rc.50384$Vm1.1282981@news20.bellglobal.com>

Christopher T. King suggested that "we're trying to kill too many birds
with one stone".

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=stone+birds+group:comp.lang.python&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=Pine.LNX.4.44.0408050856390.31290-100000%40ccc9.wpi.edu&rnum=1

He goes on to suggest three needs which decorators serve.  Are these the
only purposes which are envisaged for decorators?

Most of the discussion has focused on syntax.  I would like to see some
clarification of the purpose and meaning of a decoration.

The latest version of PEP 318 has a Motivation section which talks of
transforming a method or function.  The possible purposes of the
transformation are not so clear.

The use of the term decorator is questionable.  In everyday usage, to
decorate is to furnish with adornments.  In this sense, we could say
that a docstring is a decorator, but is that true of a transformation.
It seems desirable that we choose words which are as close as possible
to their everyday usage.

Example 4 in the PEP 318 illustrates the enforcement of function/method
argument and return checking.  Is it envisaged that the accepts and
returns functions become part of __builtins__?  The code seems to assume
that the interpreter will divert the func arguments to accepts and the
return object to returns.  Is this correct?  If so, how many trigger
words are implemented?

Some syntactic options are provided in:
    http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators
I am inclined to support option D.  The decorator follows the function
definition and is indented, indicating that the decorator qualifies the
decorated and is, in a sense subordinate to it. It doesn't use @.

Steve Bethard sets out the syntactic choices clearly:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=bethard+decorator&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6%40posting.google.com&rnum=1

My choices would be:

Indicator:  Keyword preferred, but not | (vertical bar), as it looks too
much like 1 or l.

Location: First line of the body.  The decorators are subordinate to the
signature and indented like the docstring.

List notation: As ListType, with a line per entry.

Indented: Yes, no block.

Clearly, I don't fully understand PEP 318, but I wonder at times if
decorators aren't a solution in search of a problem.

Colin W.




From mwh at python.net  Mon Aug 23 11:31:52 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:31:52 GMT
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<7x4qmv6cwo.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<mailman.2139.1093156132.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m3u0utj2fs.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> writes:

> On 21 Aug 2004 20:59:35 -0700, Paul Rubin
> <"http://phr.cx"@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> > Well, whenever I want to write a mainstream application and think of
> > using Python, my first reaction is that Python is too slow...
> 
> Too slow for what? 
> 
> I'm not being facetious here - what exactly are the bits of Python that
> are too slow? I used to think this as well, but see my PyCon paper from
> earlier this year.

Well, Python's pretty bad for things stuff like adaptive numerical
methods (the point of "adaptive" is that you can't do lots of problems
at once using numarray or similar, or at least I couldn't work out how
when I was an undergraduate :-).

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  But maybe I've just programmed in enough different languages to
  assume that they are, in fact, different.
     -- Tony J Ibbs explains why Python isn't Java on comp.lang.python


From cygnus at cprogrammer.org  Thu Aug 26 00:14:37 2004
From: cygnus at cprogrammer.org (Jonathan Daugherty)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 21:14:37 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <8ecda57b.0408251754.14ed27b9@posting.google.com>
References: <20040819231139.D039A1E4003@bag.python.org>
	<mailman.1999.1092969866.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<eyqWc.223375$j62.10948731@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<qVAWc.2328$MR2.9560@news1.mts.net>
	<njemi0hrm3jb1kdc8mhg8krd9a4qu3e894@4ax.com>
	<5cf809e9.0408241126.6e3fdd5b@posting.google.com>
	<8ecda57b.0408251754.14ed27b9@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <20040826041437.GA6784@vulcan.cprogrammer.org>

# Started programming 'real' computers starting
# with an IBM 1401 Card system with 4k characters of memory using 1401
# SPS (Symbolic Programming System) the assembler of the day. Graduated
# to an IBM 360/30 with 3 2311 disk drives and COBOL and learned from
# bitter experience why 'alter... goto' should be banished from
# existence (I think its been obsoleted in current COBOL versions). Went
# on from there to large mainframes and lots of IBM assembler, CICS, and
# more COBOL. Dabbled with RPG and FARGO and probably a couple of
# languages I've completely forgotten about.  Had a z80 machine custom
# built for me in 1977 by ByteShop East in NYC and fooled around with GW
# Basic. Discovered C in the early eighties and loved it. Graduated to
# RadioShack TRS 80 model III's (it actually had a decent COBOL compiler
# which I fooled around with and a great C compiler made by Mix)  and
# Atari 800 (anyone remember Atari's Deep Blue C C compiler?)  Dabbled
# in Java for awhile when it came out and off and on thru release 1.2.
# Fooled around with Perl and totally spurned  Python (indentation for
# statement grouping, YUCKKK!). Couple of years later, wanted to do some
# GUI's fast, and 'lo and behold'... PYTHON to the rescue. I've been
# learning and using it now for about a 1/2 year and love it!
# BTW anybody know what SPOOL stands for? I do. Once won a magazine
# subscription extension for answering that question...  No, you don't
# win anything if you answer correctly :)

Is it just me or are these posts getting off-topic? :)

-- 
  Jonathan Daugherty
  http://www.cprogrammer.org


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 11 16:27:21 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:27:21 -0400
Subject: Rather than decorators, how about sections?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408111554120.25138-100000@ccc1.wpi.edu>
References: <cfdegs$5oo$1@sea.gmane.org>	<1C74C038-EBB6-11D8-8889-000A95857E5C@eischet.com>	<mailman.1516.1092244260.5135.python-list@python.org>	<411a6b9d$0$13688$636a15ce@news.free.fr>	<mailman.1525.1092252887.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408111554120.25138-100000@ccc1.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <cfdvf8$6eb$1@sea.gmane.org>

Christopher T King wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Paul Morrow wrote:
> 
> 
>>Fine, instead of Foo (the name of the class), use the word klass.  It's 
>>a popular name for the first parameter of a class method.
> 
> 
> My code uses 'cls' for this purpose.  I'm sure others stick with 'self'.  
> No matter what you pick, it will break something.
> 
> To quote the Zen of Python: "Explicit is better than implicit."
> 

Using 'self' to hold a class object or 'klass' (or 'cls') to hold an 
instance object can make for some suprising code...

	def foo(self): print "I'm a class method!"

	def baz(cls): print "I'm an instance method!"

I imagine that the majority of us use 'self' in instance methods.  There 
can't be more than a few argument names that are commonly used to hold 
class objects (klass, cls, ...) so maybe the compiler allows any one of 
the popular spellings in that position.

If explicit truly was better than implicit, we wouldn't embrace dynamic 
typing as we do.  We would declare everything.  And this language 
wouldn't be any fun...






From raims at dot.com  Wed Aug 18 07:13:45 2004
From: raims at dot.com (Lawrence Oluyede)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 13:13:45 +0200
Subject: Platform independent way to play an mp3 file
References: <mailman.1849.1092821900.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1w9xnslz5154j.1es2d7zxju1hl$.dlg@40tude.net>

In data Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:38:21 +0200, Gandalf ha scritto:

> Does anyone know a platform independent way to play an mp3 file from Python?
> I believe the standard library cannot do this.

http://pymedia.sf.net

maybe this library can help you

-- 
Lawrence (l dot oluyede at virgilio dot it)
"If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea."
from The Zen of Python by Tim Peters


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 31 09:25:43 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:25:43 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <ch1qf3$hvr$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>	<e69d3ed2040	<HBF.20040830aznn@
	<ch1qf3$hvr$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <ch1u8l$84n$1@sea.gmane.org>

Paul Morrow wrote:
> 
> But why speculate.  Let's see if this is really going to be unclear in 
> practice.  Ask someone who has never seen Python before which are the 
> local variables in the following def.
> 
>    def circumference(diameter):
>       """Calculate the diameter of a circle."""
>       __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'
>       __version__ = '0.1'
>       pi = 3.14
>       return pi * diameter
> 
> 

And while you're at it, ask them which lines get executed at function 
definition time, and which get executed when the function is called.

Paul



From roy at panix.com  Sun Aug  8 10:19:19 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 10:19:19 -0400
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar,
	but for what exactly? (decorator libraries).
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
	<mailman.1352.1091953503.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-0D45FB.09322108082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1359.1091973019.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-032D22.10191908082004@reader1.panix.com>

In article <mailman.1359.1091973019.5135.python-list at python.org>,
 Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:

> > Speaking of libraries, Dan Bishop posted some interesting example of
> > @memoize and @printreturns utility wrappers.  This leads me to think
> > that a good way to leverage the idea of decorators would be a module of
> > common utility functions which could be used as decorators by anybody.
> > I'll call the module martha (since it supplies things used for
> > decorating).  Does the proposed mechanism support something like (to use
> > one of Dan's exmaples, written with two different syntaxen):
> 
> That might happen, but it's unlikely for 2.4. Give people time to use the new
> tools, find out what works well and not so well, and standardise those.

I think you missed the gist of my question, which is probably my fault 
for wrapping it up (decorating it?) with a lot of other peripheral 
points.

The key question is whether the decorator mechanism would allow such a 
thing?  All of the examples I've seen have the decorator defined right 
before it's used, and having a simple name.  I'm guessing that the real 
syntax is @<callable>, and that any expression that evaluations to a 
callable object is kosher after the "@"?  So, any of the following would 
be syntactically correct:

---------------------

import martha
@martha.memoize
def foo (x):
   return x

---------------------

# don't know why you would want to do this, but I'm
# exploring the edges of the envelope.

def decorator1 ():
   pass

def decorator2 ():
   pass

decorators = [decorator1, decorator2]

def getDecorator (i):
   return decorators [i]

@decorators[0]
@getDecorator (1)
def myFunction ():
   pass


---------------------


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug 20 12:32:39 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:32:39 -0400
Subject: Rita Sue and Bob too
In-Reply-To: <cg54tb$26p$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>
References: <cg3ksb$bg5$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-310D02.09414120082004@localhost>
	<cg54tb$26p$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <7tKdndVxj-WwurvcRVn-gA@powergate.ca>

M. Clift wrote:

> If I wasn't happy enough already with the examples/ideas you've all shown
> me, how about searching as previously, but where the middle name could be
> anything. i.e. 'Rita', 'anyname','Bob'

How about this? (may need more test cases, and then perhaps fixes):


class Anything:
     '''wildcard: matches anything'''
     pass


def sliceCompare(left, right):
     '''compare left and right, returning True if equal (allows wildcard)'''
     if len(left) != len(right):
         return False
     else:
         for l, r in zip(left, right):
             if Anything in [l, r]:
                 pass
             elif l != r:
                 return False
         else:
             return True


def sliceIndex(seq, sub, start=0):
     '''search starting at 'start' for sub in seq, return index of match 
or -1'''
     try:
         i = seq.index(sub[0], start)
         while i >= 0:
             if sliceCompare(seq[i:i+len(sub)], sub):
                 return i
             i = seq.index(sub[0], i+1)
     except ValueError:
         pass
     return -1



def test():
     case1 = ['Rita', 'Sue', 'Bob']
     alist = 'Rita Mary Jane Bob Sue Carl Hans Rita Bob Sue'.split()
     assert sliceIndex([], case1) == -1
     assert sliceIndex(alist, case1) == -1

     alist = 'Rita Mary Jane Bob Rita Carl Bob Hans Rita Sue Bob Sue 
Rita Sue Bob'.split()
     assert sliceIndex(alist, case1) == 8
     assert sliceIndex(alist, case1, 9) == 12
     assert sliceIndex(alist, case1, 13) == -1

     case2 = ['Rita', Anything, 'Bob']
     assert sliceIndex(alist, case2) == 4
     assert sliceIndex(alist, case2, 5) == 8
     assert sliceIndex(alist, case2, 9) == 12


if __name__ == '__main__':
     test()


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Sat Aug 21 11:34:54 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:34:54 -0400
Subject: Why are strings immutable?
References: <chzVc.288437$a24.71659@attbi_s03>
Message-ID: <10ieqt67kf3139c@news.supernews.com>


"Brent W. Hughes" <brent.hughes at comcast.net> wrote in message
news:chzVc.288437$a24.71659 at attbi_s03...
> I kind of hate to have to convert a string into a list, manipulate it, and
> then convert it back into a string.  Why not make strings mutable?

Strings are immutable because they are "value objects".
Consult any good, recent OO design text for what a
value object is, and why it should be immutable.

That said, it would be useful to have a
string buffer object that could be changed.

John Roth
>
>




From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug  9 11:48:34 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 09 Aug 2004 15:48:34 GMT
Subject: how many bytes in an int
References: <9ACRc.1523$bJ2.9739@news1.mts.net>
	<4116f8ee$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<FADRc.1532$bJ2.9871@news1.mts.net>
	<41170cd1$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<41171116$0$8079$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<41172C9A.2020301@jessikat.fsnet.co.uk>
	<41178bde$0$8077$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<cf83i7$182c@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <41179cd2$0$8089$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-09, Richard Brodie <R.Brodie at rl.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> "Grant Edwards" <grante at visi.com> wrote in message
> news:41178bde$0$8077$a1866201 at newsreader.visi.com...
>
>> Like the man said, "struct" doesn't convert to-from integers of
>> specified byte lengths.
>
> It does if you ask it to.

By guessing formats and calculating sizes? Or is there a way to
ask for an N-byte integer that I missed?

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  .. this must be what
                                  at               it's like to be a COLLEGE
                               visi.com            GRADUATE!!


From __peter__ at web.de  Sun Aug  1 14:14:15 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 20:14:15 +0200
Subject: transforming a list into a string
References: <pan.2004.07.31.12.27.23.547000@hotmail.com>
	<roy-982174.13075831072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<cegqdu$2fb$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<mailman.1020.1091310303.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-FDE83B.19595731072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1022.1091319366.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-C8B243.20435231072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1023.1091322043.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-0A6C18.21364331072004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <cejbto$i64$00$1@news.t-online.com>

Roy Smith wrote:

> I'm also not particularly happy about the choice of "it" as a variable
> name.  The "izip (it, it)" construct makes me think of Dr. Evil :-)

Using "it" is just my convention (contradictio in adiecto :-) for iterators
used in a pure algorithm rather than with a meaning determined by a
concrete use case. It's similar to the traditional i in counting loops,
having grown an additional "t" to disambiguate it. If you have a better
name for the purpose, don't hesitate to tell me...

> It's not the izip bit that bothers me in the original, it's the deeply
> nested construct of
> 
> ",".join(["{%s,%s}" % i for i in izip(it, it)])
> 
> There's too much going on in that one line to get your head around
> easily.  I suppose people who are really into functional programming
> might find it understandable, but I find it rather obtuse.

I don't think three levels can be called "deep nesting". In particular the
"somestr".join() construct is so ubiquitous that your brain will "optimize"
it away after reading a small amount of Python code. But I see my oneliner
meets serious opposition. Well, sometimes a few self-explanatory names and
a helper function can do wonders:

import itertools

def pairs(seq):
    it = iter(seq)
    return itertools.izip(it, it)

coords = ['1','2','7','8','12','13']
points = []
for xy in pairs(coords):
    points.append("{%s, %s}" % xy)

print ", ".join(points)

That should be clear even to someone who has never heard of generators. Note
that pairs() is only called once and therefore does not affect the speed of
execution. Personally, I'd still go with the list comprehension instead of
the above for-loop.

By the way - expanding on Michele Simionato's chop(), 
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2004-May/222673.html
I've written a generalized version of pairs():

_missing = object()

def ntuples(seq, N=2, filler=_missing):
    """ Yield a sequence in portions of N-tuples.

        >>> list(ntuples("abcdefg", 3))
        [('a', 'b', 'c'), ('d', 'e', 'f')]

        >>> list(ntuples("abc", filler="x"))
        [('a', 'b'), ('c', 'x')]
    """
    if filler is _missing:
        it = iter(seq)
    else:
        it = itertools.chain(iter(seq), itertools.repeat(filler, N-1))
    iters = (it,) * N
    return itertools.izip(*iters)

Enjoy :-)

Peter



From samuel.williams at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 17:04:36 2004
From: samuel.williams at gmail.com (sam)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 14:04:36 -0700
Subject: jonpy uploading
Message-ID: <cgdm54$46t@odah37.prod.google.com>

Anyone else have trouble with Jon's Python Modules and uploads?  Looks
like it gets into an infinite loop in class Entity's __init__
(mime.py).  

cgi, xitami, xp



From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Wed Aug  4 22:05:39 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Thu,  5 Aug 2004 12:05:39 +1000
Subject: on the fly document generation
Message-ID: <1091671539.411195f36b55f@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

i generate a document on the fly and then print it from my script. to force
the browser to show the 'save file' dialog rather than display the content
in  the browser, i have added the header Content-Type
print "Content-Type: application\n"
however when the save file dialog box comes up, it gives the script name
(in this case sfile.cgi) as the filename. how can i change that to a
different filename?

print "Content-Type: application; name="test.xml\n"

sorry its a little off-topic

thanks

cheers

--
Ajay Brar,
CS Honours 2004
Smart Internet Technology Research Group





----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From gandalf at geochemsource.com  Thu Aug 12 06:06:20 2004
From: gandalf at geochemsource.com (Gandalf)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:06:20 +0200
Subject: Mod python with multipart
Message-ID: <411B411C.5040905@geochemsource.com>


  Hi All!

Does anyone know how to read the "multipart/form-data" posted by a form? 
I'm using mod_python 3.1 and Apache 2.
I looked at the docs of the request object but there is no description 
on how to read multipart data.
I also tried google with "modpython multipart" but there are only a few 
hits - I could not use them.

I only need the multipart data as a string - I have already written the 
code that splits the data into fielts.
Thanks in advance,

   Laci



From zathras at thwackety.com  Sat Aug 21 20:41:58 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 01:41:58 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [PATCH] RE: J2 decorator grammar
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408220102570.23441-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408220135420.23441-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004, Michael Sparks wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Robert Brewer wrote:
> ...
> > Did you ever fix the scope issue?
>
> I've fixed the scoping issue.
>
> I'll clean up the changes I made to get a minimal patch against 2.4a2, and
> then put it somewhere handy.

The patch can be found here:
   * http://thwackety.com/decorator_syntax_J2.patch

I'll add the simple/short form tomorrow.

Regards,


Michael.



From dave at pythonapocrypha.com  Mon Aug  9 13:56:20 2004
From: dave at pythonapocrypha.com (Dave Brueck)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 11:56:20 -0600
Subject: Queue qsize = unreliable?
In-Reply-To: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA22@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>
References: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA22@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>
Message-ID: <4117BAC4.7060804@pythonapocrypha.com>

Ames Andreas (MPA/DF) wrote:

> Dave Brueck wrote:
>>But is it blocking in any way that you (the caller) will likely
>>notice? (probably not - the mutex is held for a relatively short
> 
> How I notice a blocking function?
> 
> 1) As a programmer:  I have to read the docs and unfortunately all too
>    often the code.

What I meant was that the fact that a lock is being acquired in the 
module implementation doesn't really affect your code (or its 
performance in most cases) in practice.

> 2) As a "caller":  I'm wasting time when blocking without a reason.

Not really because (1) the code would block only when more than one 
thread is accessing the lock at the same time, (2) there is a fairly 
small chance that more than one thread will be accessing that particular 
lock at the same time (especially in the scenarios you described 
earlier), and (3) even when there is contention for the lock it will be 
over a very brief period of time.

>>>With CPython's assertions about atomicity of certain list
>>>operations it's possible to implement a lock free queue that is
>>>even usable for the single producer or single consumer case.
>>
>>If you have the single producer and/or single consumer case, you
>>don't need a Queue at all - just use a built-in list (or in 2.4 a
>>collections.deque object).
> 
> I think I didn't make my point clear enough.  The most important word
> in the above paragraph was "usable", which means more to me than just
> thread-safe.  I'd be interested in a usable (i. e. non-polling)
> implementation of a queue without any locks.

What problem has the current implementation caused in your application? 
Or are you more concerned about what problem it may cause?

In any case, why don't you just do something like:

import Queue
class MyQ(Queue.Queue):
   def NonBlockingIsEmpty(self):
     return len(self.queue) == 0

> I just included the "else" branch to make clear that only one of
> empty's two possible outcomes is reliable.  It makes much more sense
> and it is much closer to my specific application to write:
> 
> while !q.empty():
>       doSomethingToTheWorkersOutput()
 >
 > When leaving this loop I'll go back to sleep on select.

As I said earlier: if this is your use case you don't need a queue 
object - just use a built-in list:

while workList:
   doSomethingToTheWorkersOutput()

> As to the "extremely short amount of time (relatively speaking)":  I'm
> still very impressed by Dan Kegel's c10k paper.

Yes, it is a good paper. BTW - are you really using select() as you 
mentioned above or is it some special implementation of select? (because 
if it's just an ordinary select then you're not going to be able to 
support that many connections anyway, and even if you could, using 
something else instead of select would give you much greater performance 
improvements than eliminating the Queue lock usage.

 > And following that
> one I'm not so much concerned about the amount of time that a producer
> may hold the lock (that time may very well be ignorable), when the
> single consumer tries to acquire it, but much more about the fact that
> it potentially needs at least *two* context switches per iteration
> until the one thread that feeds all others and thus that all others
> depend upon gets back to work.

So is this actually causing you a problem in practice or is this closer 
to some premature optimization? No offense intended - I ask only because 
it seems very unlikely that this is going to be one of your major 
bottlenecks.

Yes, you could end up with multiple context switches *in the worst 
case*, but you have to also consider (1) how likely the worst case 
scenario is to come up and (2) how that stacks up against other 
bottlenecks in terms of performance.

If you're using the queues to pass around socket-level work (reading and 
writing bytes) then I can tell you right now that you're not going to 
get anywhere near the 10k connection limit with that approach on 
standard CPython - the overhead of the Queue itself is too high - so 
it'd be in your best interest to profile and work on the actual 
bottlenecks first. If you're instead using the queues to pass around 
application-level work ("run this DB query", "send this response to the 
client", etc), then it's highly unlikely that the mutex acquisition in 
Queue.get(False) will have any measurable impact in overall application 
performance because - so again the best bet is to profile to find 
current, real hotspots in the code.

FWIW, Python _is_ a pretty good platform for developing relatively 
high-performance servers. I've found that, with not too much work, it's 
easy to have a clean implementation and still be on par with (and even 
beat) something like Apache both in terms of total throughput, 
connection response times, etc. BUT, if you want to approach very large 
numbers of connections you may want to base your implementation on 
Stackless Python and avoid normal Python threads (and Queues, and...) 
altogether.

-Dave


From edreamleo at charter.net  Thu Aug  5 07:26:50 2004
From: edreamleo at charter.net (Edward K. Ream)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 06:26:50 -0500
Subject: Decorator syntax
References: <mailman.1173.1091670172.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<38ednYT1NLz1P4zcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <10h46c0l0kol830@corp.supernews.com>

> Anyway, check the past discussions before going back around
> the same arguments yet again.

And exactly how is one supposed to do this?  I would have thought the pep
would be the place to start, but pep 318 is actively misleading as to the
state of the project.

BTW, one of the design goals in pep 318 is "not needlessly complicate
secondary support tools".  I would classify Leo as one of those tools, and
the '@' syntax threatens Leo directly, as I have said in the thread called
"Confused about pep 318"

Edward
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Edward K. Ream   email:  edreamleo at charter.net
Leo: Literate Editor with Outlines
Leo: http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------




From ml at dynkin.com  Sun Aug 29 09:25:58 2004
From: ml at dynkin.com (George Yoshida)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 22:25:58 +0900
Subject: Get all subdirs
In-Reply-To: <cgsk49$82c$00$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <cgsk49$82c$00$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <cgslga$17i3$1@dojima-n0.hi-ho.ne.jp>

Florian Lindner wrote:
> Hello,
> how can I get all subdirectories of a given directory. os.listdir(dir)
> doesn't differentiate between directories and files, os.walk seems to me a
> bit overkill since it also descends in the subdirs.
> Thx,
> Florian

What about testing return values of os.listdir with os.path.isdir?
e.g.,

   filter(os.path.isdir, os.listdir(dir))

or if you don't like high-order functions,

   [filename for filename in os.listdir(dir) if os.path.isdir(filename)]

--
George


From b.niemann at betternet.de  Thu Aug 19 05:27:31 2004
From: b.niemann at betternet.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:27:31 +0200
Subject: Embedding Python in Python
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
References: <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
Message-ID: <cg1rkc$dg2$1@online.de>

Well it seems that this is impossible to do with the current Python. But 
  it is a feature that would be important for certain applications. 
Actually I've been searching for this, too - and only found 
abandoned/deprecated modules.

If you want to use the current Python interpreter to execute the code, 
you'd have to remove many language features, because they could provide 
a backdoor for malicous code. This could be done by defining a grammar 
for a subset of Python (perhaps with some semantic checks), and verify 
that the code satisfies the grammar before you feed it into eval(). This 
could either be easy (resulting in a small subset of Python that is 
probably too small for real use...), or difficult (resulting in a usable 
subset, but with a large amount of complex grammar rules - with at least 
one rule that introduces a security leak...).

A good solution has to be implemented in the Python interpreter. Are 
there any plans for future versions of Python? I've seen the phrase 
"security initiative" on this list. Was that a "there is a ..." or 
"there should be a ..."? I couldn't find anything on the web (but didn't 
search very deep).

My first idea:

- extend the C-API (alternative to Py_Initialize??) for embedding Python 
to provide a 'stripped down' interpreter: no builtins with sideeffects 
(like open()...), ...
I don't know anything about Pythons internals or embedding Python, so I 
can say, if this is easy or possible at all.

- communication of the embedded script to the outside world (file or 
network I/O...) must be provided by the hosting application that is 
responsible for enforcing the desired security limitations.

- wrap it into a Python module. Then you can start the isolated embedded 
Python from 'real' Python code.

The interesting (and most difficult) thing is, which part of Pythons 
standard library relies on "dangerous" features. This could drastically 
reduce the usability of this approach (until you build your own 'secure' 
library).
Using this model, the secure interpreter is running in the same process 
context as the unsecure host. A bug in python could result in unchecked 
access to resources of the host. For higher security a separate process 
should be started.


From jsaker at americanrelay.com  Fri Aug  6 11:24:10 2004
From: jsaker at americanrelay.com (James R. Saker Jr.)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 10:24:10 -0500
Subject: Queue qsize = unreliable?
Message-ID: <1091805850.15192.12.camel@localhost>

I see per pydoc that Queue.Queue()'s .qsize is allegedly unreliable:

     |  qsize(self)
     |      Return the approximate size of the queue (not reliable!).

Any thoughts on why this is unreliable (and more curiously, why it would
be put in there as an unreliable function?) Rather than roll my own
threaded fifo class, it would seem prudent to use Python's built-in
Queue but the warning signs on a rather necessary function seem curious.

Jamie




From herbcle at en.com  Thu Aug 19 21:43:43 2004
From: herbcle at en.com (Herb Schilling)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:43:43 -0400
Subject: ANN: Python Decrypt PDF script -- builds on pdftools
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1868.1092839116.5135.python-announce-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1868.1092839116.5135.python-announce-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <a06020402bd4b07cebf23@[209.81.165.51]>

>Hi,
>
>I wanted to extract the meta-data from an encrypted/protected PDF file
>and could not find any Python scripts to do this. So, I decided to
>write something myself, the result follows.
>
>This demonstration utility requires the `pdftools` files from
><http://www.boddie.org.uk/david/Projects/Python/pdftools/> but the
>decryption functions themselves should be usable with other Python PDF
>libraries.
>
>Documentation is marginal and all I can say is that worked on the
>three PDF files I tested it on... :-)
>
>--Phil.
>
>P.S. The usual Usenet-mangling warning applies--yeah, I know--I should
>put it up on a web site somewhere... :-)
>
>#!/usr/bin/python
>#
># Decrypt PDF Info
>#
># Decrypts PDF files and displays meta-data associated with them. (If
>the
># file isn't encrypted the information is displayed as is.)
>#
># The results are similar to xpdf's `pdfinfo` utility.
>#
># It should be possible to decrypt all of the objects contained
># in the PDF, but this only reads the Document Information Dictionary.
>#
># (Note: All the PDF handling is provided by `pdftools`, this just
>adds
>#        the ability to deal with encrypted PDF files.)
>#
># Requires:
>#   + pdftools
>#     <http://www.boddie.org.uk/david/Projects/Python/pdftools/>
>#
># Based on:
>#   + `pdfdecrypt.pl`
>#     <http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Adobe/Gallery/pdfdecrypt.pl>
>[PDFPL]
>#
># Incorporates:
>#   + RC4 from CipherSaber implementation by Ka-Ping Yee
><ping at lfw.org>
>#     <http://www.xs4all.nl/~cg/ciphersaber/comp/python.txt>
>#
># References:
>#   + 
><http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Adobe/Gallery/anon21jul01-pdf-encryption.txt>
>[PDFE]
>#
># Author:
>#   follower at myrealbox.com (Standing on *many* shoulders...)
>#
>import sys
>import md5
>import struct
>
>from pdftools import PDFdocument
>
>def arcfour(input, key):
>     """
>     Perform the ARCFOUR (RC4) algorithm on a given input list of bytes
>with
>     a key given as a list of bytes, and return the output as a list of
>     bytes.
>
>     (From CipherSaber implementation by Ka-Ping Yee <ping at lfw.org>
>      <http://www.xs4all.nl/~cg/ciphersaber/comp/python.txt>)
>     """
>     i, j, state = 0, 0, range(256)
>     for i in range(256):
>         j = (j + state[i] + key[i % len(key)]) % 256
>         state[i], state[j] = state[j], state[i]
>     i, j, output = 0, 0, []
>     for byte in input:
>         i = (i + 1) % 256
>         j = (j + state[i]) % 256
>         state[i], state[j] = state[j], state[i]
>         n = (state[i] + state[j]) % 256
>         output.append(byte ^ state[n])
>     return output
>
>
>_passwordPad = [
>   0x28, 0xbf, 0x4e, 0x5e, 0x4e, 0x75, 0x8a, 0x41,
>   0x64, 0x00, 0x4e, 0x56, 0xff, 0xfa, 0x01, 0x08,
>   0x2e, 0x2e, 0x00, 0xb6, 0xd0, 0x68, 0x3e, 0x80,
>   0x2f, 0x0c, 0xa9, 0xfe, 0x64, 0x53, 0x69, 0x7a]
>
>passwordPad = "".join([chr(b) for b in _passwordPad])
>
>def calculateFileKey(fileId, ownerHash, userHash, permissions,
>                      userPassword = ""):
>     """
>     Calculates the file key for the document as described in
>references
>     (see [PDFE] and [PDFPL]).   
>     """
>     md = md5.new()
>     md.update((userPassword + passwordPad)[:32])
>     md.update(ownerHash)
>     md.update(struct.pack("<L", permissions))
>     md.update(fileId)
>
>     fileKey = md.digest()[:5]
>
>     return fileKey   
>
>
>def calculateObjectKey(fileKey, objectNumber, generationNumber):
>     """
>     Calculates the key for the object as described in references
>     (see [PDFE] and [PDFPL]).   
>     """
>     md = md5.new()
>     md.update(fileKey)
>     md.update(struct.pack("<L", objectNumber)[:3])
>     md.update(struct.pack("<L", generationNumber)[:2])
>     objectKey = md.digest()[:10]
>
>     return objectKey   
>
>
>class NotEncryptedException(Exception):
>     """
>     The supplied PDF document is not encrypted.
>     """
>
>
>KEY_OWNER_HASH = 'O'
>KEY_USER_HASH = 'U'
>KEY_PERMISSIONS = 'P'
>
>def getFileKey(doc, userPassword = ""):
>     """
>     Extracts the information required to calculate the file key
>     from the supplied PDF document.
>
>     In most cases `userPassword` can be left empty.  
>     """
>     fileId = doc.trailer_dict['ID'][0] # Is the ID always repeated?
>
>     try:
>         encryptDict = doc.dereference(doc.trailer_dict['Encrypt'])
>     except KeyError:
>         raise NotEncryptedException
>     # TODO: Check encryption version is ok. (filter/standard/v/1/r/2)
>
>     ownerHash = encryptDict[KEY_OWNER_HASH]
>     userHash = encryptDict[KEY_USER_HASH]
>     # `permissions` should be "four-byte integer, LSB first."
>     permissions = encryptDict[KEY_PERMISSIONS]
>    
>     fileKey = calculateFileKey(fileId, ownerHash, userHash,
>permissions,
>                                userPassword)
>
>     # Sanity check user password
>     assert(decrypt(userHash, fileKey) == passwordPad)
>
>     return fileKey   
>
>
>def decrypt(text, key):
>     """
>     Decrypts the supplied object (as a string) with the supplied key.
>
>     Returns "plain text" form of object as a string.
>     """
>     return "".join([chr(b)
>                     for b in arcfour(map(ord, text), map(ord, key))])
>    
>
>def showDocumentInfo(doc, fileKey):
>     """
>     Displays the content of the (optionally encrypted) Document
>Information
>     Dictionary for the supplied PDF document.
>     """
>     infoDictRef = doc.trailer_dict['Info']
>     objectNumber = infoDictRef.obj
>     generationNumber = infoDictRef.gen
>
>     infoDict = doc.dereference(infoDictRef)
>
>     objectKey = calculateObjectKey(fileKey, objectNumber,
>generationNumber)
>
>     for field, encryptedValue in infoDict.iteritems():
>         if fileKey:
>             value = decrypt(encryptedValue, objectKey)
>         else:
>             value = encryptedValue
>         print "%s: %s" % (field, value)
>    
>
>if __name__ == "__main__":
>     try:
>         filename = sys.argv[1]
>     except IndexError:
>         raise SystemExit("Usage %s <filename.pdf>" % sys.argv[0])
>    
>     doc = PDFdocument(filename)
>
>     try:
>         fileKey = getFileKey(doc)
>     except NotEncryptedException:
>         fileKey = ""
>
>     showDocumentInfo(doc, fileKey)


-- 
Herb Schilling


From 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de  Tue Aug 17 09:09:43 2004
From: 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de (510046470588-0001 at t-online.de)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 15:09:43 +0200
Subject: How big can a Python program be?
References: <903b3fba.0408170333.49ce3944@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <87smalgbc8.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>

vronskij at post.sk writes:

> Hi,
> 
> A C program can be hundreds of thousands lines of code big.
> C++ millions.
> 
> How about Python?
> 

no limitation

Klaus Schilling


From chrisccc_3k at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  9 14:35:01 2004
From: chrisccc_3k at yahoo.com (Chris Connett)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:35:01 -0400
Subject: Best pattern/idiom
Message-ID: <4117c3d8$1@buckaroo.cs.rit.edu>

I was wondering if there were a well known pattern/idiom for breaking a 
sequence into a list of lists, each n elements long, e.g.

[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11] -> [[0,1,2,3],[4,5,6,7],[8,9,10,11]]

This comes up reasonably often in my work, and every time I re-think 
about it, and come up with
[ lis[n:n+4] for n in range( 0, len( lis ), 4 ) ]
which seems very kludgy to me, since it uses a range and len, 2 mentions 
of the list identifier and 2 literal 4's (which is the size I want to 
break into this time).

Is there a better way?



From http  Thu Aug 26 13:52:26 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 10:52:26 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<mailman.2455.1093539321.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<gqudnRoo8q-Cg7PcRVn-tA@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <7xoekx4wit.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Doug Holton <insert at spam.here> writes:
> Even in common English usage, "per" usually comes in the middle of a
> phrase, not the beginning, like "miles per hour" or "Changes were made
> to the manuscript per the author's instructions"  (people would more
> commonly use the phrase "according to" rather than "per" there).

It's also perfectly ok to say "Per the author's instructions, changes
were made to the manuscript".


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Aug 28 05:37:25 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 05:37:25 -0400
Subject: Iteration over Lists and Strings
References: <cUSXc.56768$xi6.42946@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <cgpjon$tk9$1@sea.gmane.org>


"DeepBleu" <DeepBleu at DeepBleu.org> wrote in message 
news:cUSXc.56768$xi6.42946 at fe2.texas.rr.com...
> (expected result:

When something does not act as expected, look in the manual or try the 
builtin help facility, which only takes seconds.

>>> help(list.index)
Help on method_descriptor:

index(...)
    L.index(value) -> integer -- return index of first occurrence of value

dir(object) will give you a list of attributes and methods.   You can look 
up new ones the same way.  In particular, dir(list) and dir(__builtins__).

Terry J. Reedy





From timr at probo.com  Tue Aug 24 01:42:32 2004
From: timr at probo.com (Tim Roberts)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 22:42:32 -0700
Subject: html templates
References: <mailman.1998.1092968486.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cncbi0paabnc80f179piacb3kn2dn1kblr@4ax.com>
	<opsc6kl3kv1v4ijd@musicbox>
Message-ID: <d8lli0hi19fk0ndd9tkah55nne57pajbf2@4ax.com>

Pierre-Fr?d?ric Caillaud <peufeu at free.fr> wrote:
>
>	I tried Cheetah and found it to be a bit slow. Maybe it has too many  
>features. The template language is great, though.

There is some code in the WebWare wiki that demonstrates how to cache
Cheetah templates, so they only get recompiled when they change.  That can
help performance on sites that rarely change.
-- 
- Tim Roberts, timr at probo.com
  Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.


From nothanks at nothere.com  Thu Aug 26 18:32:21 2004
From: nothanks at nothere.com (Emiliano Molina)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:32:21 GMT
Subject: Subclassing built-in types
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2406.1093507593.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <Z5XWc.6680$D7.6005@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
	<mailman.2406.1093507593.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <VxtXc.9056$D7.5992@news-server.bigpond.net.au>

Thank you, thats just what I needed.


From python at elehack.net  Mon Aug  9 11:50:26 2004
From: python at elehack.net (Michael Ekstrand)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 10:50:26 -0500
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
In-Reply-To: <cf3h09$7ip$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu>
	<MfbRc.41$cq.23@fe39.usenetserver.com>
	<cf3h09$7ip$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>
Message-ID: <200408091050.26226.python@elehack.net>

On Saturday 07 August 2004 16:19, Jarek Zgoda wrote:
> It is first time I felt it's "we and them" world, divided into
> "Python developers" and "Python users". They want features. We want
> stability and performance.

Perhaps I am unique among Python users. But I've always welcomed the new 
features Python has introduced in recent times, especially the 
new-style class stuff in 2.3.

Perhaps it is because my programing paradigm is intensely theoretical, 
with a lot of thought put towards purity of model. But it seems that 
the features the "Python developers" are adding increase Python's 
theoretical beauty, and hence make life easier for me as a user. Except 
for when I'm stuck needing to code for pre-2.3 Python. Or coding with 
Zope, where I feel that my hands are tied because I can't use some new 
features.

-Michael


From detlev at die-offenbachs.de  Wed Aug  4 13:09:46 2004
From: detlev at die-offenbachs.de (Detlev Offenbach)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 19:09:46 +0200
Subject: eric3 completion
References: <953AD2389idtoken@128.91.2.239>
Message-ID: <jrh7u1-323.ln1@stargate.solsys.priv>

grv wrote:

> This is the only IDE that looks very useable on linux of everything
> I've looked at (and not to start a dev environment war) but one thing
> that is troublesome is the word completion.
> 
> There is a user-contributed script to parse all the dll and py files to
> make a list of functions & attributes for each namespace, but it
> doesn't
> pick up some things like file.seek() and datetime.today().  The script
> complains that no source files found, yet other built-ins like open()
> are
> picked up.  Any guidelines on how to get all the default stuff working
> for code completion?

Maybe the script has a bug. Could you check it and possibly fix it?

Detlev
-- 
Detlev Offenbach
detlev at die-offenbachs.de


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 02:56:41 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:56:41 +1000
Subject: The winner of the Python Decorator Poll is...
In-Reply-To: <4edc17eb.0408112052.1bbd85b3@posting.google.com>
References: <Ue-dnX0CBNhaEYfcRVn-ig@comcast.com>
	<mailman.1533.1092259988.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4edc17eb.0408112052.1bbd85b3@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408122356322ef12b@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 Aug 2004 21:52:03 -0700, Michele Simionato
<michele.simionato at gmail.com> wrote:
> So the poll is unavoidably biased. Happily, we are not in a democracy!

Hey, Python is a one-man-one-vote setup. 

And the name of the man with the vote is Guido.


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Fri Aug  6 10:55:50 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 14:55:50 GMT
Subject: @decorators
References: <d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa@posting.google.com>
	<1091800879.399791@news.commspeed.net>
Message-ID: <WZMQc.2054$va2.1917@fe1.texas.rr.com>

"Tom B." <sbabbitt at commspeed.net> wrote in message
news:1091800879.399791 at news.commspeed.net...
>
> "daishi" <google at daishi.fastmail.fm> wrote in message
> news:d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa at posting.google.com...
> > For what it's worth:
> >
> > As far as I know, the proposed @decorator syntax will be the first
> > time that two logical lines of python with the same indentation will
> > not be independent of one another. Previously, when looking at:
> >
>
> I think the @decorator syntax was invented by Microsoft to sabotage
Python,
>
> Tom
>
>

Heeey, let's keep it civil!!!




From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 23:19:16 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 23:19:16 -0400
Subject: Python secure?
In-Reply-To: <rzeUc.3995$bJ2.26585@news1.mts.net>
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk><ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com><ZKRTc.3710$bJ2.23892@news1.mts.net>	<cforh6$qiv$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk><mailman.1705.1092625838.5135.python-list@python.org><2xXTc.3775$bJ2.24876@news1.mts.net>	<NIydnd-skK0q173cRVn-ow@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1751.1092678567.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<rzeUc.3995$bJ2.26585@news1.mts.net>
Message-ID: <vfqdnQsFW8io5LzcRVn-tQ@powergate.ca>

Reid Nichol wrote:

> And because some M$ employee did something sloppy it is an implication 
> that C is bad.  Hell, even strncpy can be dangerous.  How many times do 
> I have to say the responsibility is the programmers, *not* the language.

The *responsibility* is clearly the programmer's, but the *language*
tends to encourage or discourage certain kinds of programmer behaviour,
including the writing of secure code.

Surely you wouldn't argue that all languages promote different
kinds of coding equally well, or even that the choice of language
has *no impact whatsoever* on how a programmer will code, or what
kinds of solutions he will attempt to use in his code?

-Peter


From me at privacy.net  Mon Aug  9 13:00:56 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Dan Sommers)
Date: 09 Aug 2004 13:00:56 -0400
Subject: Class optimization at runtime
References: <cep13o$9f5$00$1@news.t-online.com>
	<m2n01bywre.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
	<78b6a744.0408090559.65560369@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <m28ycob60m.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>

On 9 Aug 2004 06:59:47 -0700,
gry at ll.mit.edu (george young) wrote:

> How about the pygtk style "require":
>     import pygtk
>     pygtk.require('2.0')
>     import gtk # uses state set by the "require" call.

> This always seems a clean interface to me.  Much safer and cleaner
> than something peeking at a global (or environment) variable.

Our mileage has varied.  That one always seemed very unclean to me.

In my mind, pygtk sits on top of gtk, and that interface requires gtk to
look "up" to figure out what to do.  Nothing inside gtk should depend on
(or even know about) anything inside pygtk.

Regards,
Dan

-- 
Dan Sommers
<http://www.tombstonezero.net/dan/>
Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Fri Aug  6 09:48:26 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:48:26 -0400
Subject: @decorators
References: <d22692a3.0408052234.7230fd74@posting.google.com>
	<roy-B53A92.08194306082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <10h73e5kh1et536@news.supernews.com>


"Roy Smith" <roy at panix.com> wrote in message
news:roy-B53A92.08194306082004 at reader1.panix.com...
> A few random comments:
>
>
> I'm also thinking about programming by contract.  It seems like the pre-
> and post-condition assertions could also be thought of as meta-data.
> Some of the examples in the PEP hint at doing this, but don't address
> things contract inheritance.  Has there been any discussion of this?

There are several DBC packages out there. I can't give you any
pointers because I don't do things that way, but I've seen some
rather enthusiastic comments.

All of the existing packages (at least to my knowledge) use
descriptors to wrap the necessary functions. They could be
very easily reimplemented in terms of the decorator syntax.
However, the decorator syntax brings no new functionality
to the table; it's simply syntactic sugar for already existing
functionality.

It may, of course, improve readability, which is always
desirable.

> Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, I'm rather distressed at the tone
> of some of the postings I've seen here over the past couple of days.
> Some of the sentiments I've seen expressed are downright rude,
> combative, and accusatory.  These sorts of things are way out of line.

Likewise.

John Roth




From beliavsky at aol.com  Mon Aug 30 10:18:09 2004
From: beliavsky at aol.com (beliavsky at aol.com)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 07:18:09 -0700
Subject: Help with Fortran output
References: <mailman.2540.1093627522.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <3064b51d.0408300618.7b5fe129@posting.google.com>

"Kumbale, Murali T." <MKUMBALE at southernco.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.2540.1093627522.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> I am new to Python and redirection etc.  I created a simple COM object
> in Visual FORTRAN called "disp.disp" that writes to the WINDOWS console.
> I wrote a Python script which looks like the following
> 
> import win32com.client
> o = win32com.client.Dispatch("disp.disp")
> o.SimpeAdd(5)
> 
> SimpleAdd method takes the argument supplied (the number 5 in this case)
> and adds 10 to it and then writes to FORTRAN standard output using
> WRITE(6,...).  This bombs as I don't know how to capture the FORTRAN
> output written to WINDOWS console to Python console.  Please help.

I am ignorant of COM, but Fortran (or other) standard output can be
captured by Python. If I compile the Fortran program

write (6,*) "hi from Fortran"
end

to an executable 'foo.exe' and have a Python script 'xread.py'

import sys
text = sys.stdin.readline()
print text

then typing at the Windows command prompt

'foo.exe | python xread.py'

gives the output

 hi from Fortran

If this does not answer your question, your problem may be
Fortran-specific -- consider posting to comp.lang.fortran or (even
better) to the Intel Visual Fortran discusssion forum.


From google at daishi.fastmail.fm  Sat Aug  7 02:46:16 2004
From: google at daishi.fastmail.fm (daishi)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 23:46:16 -0700
Subject: @decorators
References: <d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa@posting.google.com><10h6v76mm313cce@news.supernews.com>	<cf05e8$41d$2@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
	<mailman.1315.1091827685.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <d22692a3.0408062246.71f0454d@posting.google.com>

"Terry Reedy" <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote in message news:<mailman.1315.1091827685.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> And the same examples apply:
> 
> if like(atdeco): print 'hooray'
> else:                print 'boo'
> 
> Terry J. Reedy

I apologize if I've phrased things poorly/imprecisely,
but in large part your example exemplifies the point that
I was trying make in my previous message: decorators seem
like they belong in or are themselves compound statements.
The current proposed formatting seems to me like:

else print 'boo'
if like(atdeco): print 'hooray'


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Thu Aug  5 13:28:50 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:28:50 -0400
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1207.1091724635.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051213180.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1207.1091724635.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051318360.10964-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Heiko Wundram wrote:

> Now tell me that using decorators to do synchronization isn't a lot easier to 
> read than the first (old) example is, and also less error-prone (resp. 
> acquiring/releasing locks properly and without deadlocks).

I'll admit synchronization is a strong use case (since I don't believe it 
justifies language support, like it has in Java), but I just think there's 
a better way to go about things that no-one's thought of yet.



From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Thu Aug  5 12:12:59 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 12:12:59 -0400
Subject: Confused about pep 318
In-Reply-To: <d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com>
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On 5 Aug 2004, Steven Bethard wrote:

> Wow, this one really feels like it was slipped in while no one was
> looking.

That's because it was.

> While I don't go to Python conferences, I do occasionally
> check python-dev, and I totally missed whatever thread introduced the
> @ syntax.  Scary...

This is the post that started it all:
 http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046599.html

Quote:
 The @decorator patch has been landed on the trunk, after
 getting the go-ahead from the BDFL. I'll update PEP-0318
 with the final syntax in the next day or so.

That's the first most people had heard of it.  Guido had given Anthony 
Baxter the go-ahead in a private e-mail.  There had previously been no 
public discussions about it.

> Not a big fan of this syntax -- no intuitive reason why @ would mean
> decorator -- but I presume this has already been complained about... 

It has, but the more people complaining, the better, if you're against it.



From kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no  Fri Aug 27 07:29:58 2004
From: kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Torgrim Homme)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:29:58 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
Message-ID: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>

often when re-factoring code, I need to change the indent level of
some chunk of code.  due to the lack of an end marker, my Emacs has to
use heuristics when re-indenting, and this will occasionally lead to
mistakes.  of course this is really _my_ fault, not Emacs', but it's
annoying all the same.

a colleague uses #fi, #yrt etc. to mark the end of blocks, but I don't
find this satisfactory since neither Python nor Emacs has any
knowledge of what the magic comment means.

my suggestion is to allow braces to mark the suites.  Python is still
strictly enforcing indentation, in fact, in some ways it's stricter
then before.  code which uses braces and is wrongly re-indented will
always cause a syntax error during compilation.

code could look like this:

    def appraise_insurance(rental_cars):
    {
        assert isinstance(rental_cars, (list, tuple))

        for car in rental_cars:
        {
            if car.make == "Lamborghini":
            {
                car.insurance = 1000.00
            }
            elif car.make == "Lada":
            {
                car.insurance = 50.00
            }
            else:
            {
                car.insurance = 100.00
            }
        }
        logger.debug("Insurance values updated")
    }

now, I don't suggest to write code like that, that has far too much
air between actual codelines.  I'd only add the braces where there is
a risk re-indentation changing the meaning of the program, like this:

    def appraise_insurance(rental_cars):
        assert isinstance(rental_cars, (list, tuple))
    
        for car in rental_cars:
        {
            if car.make == "Lamborghini":
                car.insurance = 1000.00
            elif car.make == "Lada":
                car.insurance = 50.00
            else:
                car.insurance = 100.00
        }
        logger.debug("Insurance values updated")

the single pair of braces is enough.  there is now no risk of Emacs
including the debug line into the else branch unnoticed.

the patch to implement this is very simple and restricted to the
tokenizer.  as it stands, it requires the braces to be placed as in
the above examples, you _can't_ write

    if True: {
        code
    } else {
        code
    }

a single braces style improves readability and style consistency among
software projects.  my patch does allow two styles, though: to reduce
line count you can put the else: on the same line as the closing
brace.

    if True:
    {
        code
    } else:
    {
        code
    }

in both styles, the braces line up and IMHO this makes it easier to
identify where a medium sized block begins and ends.

there can be no code after an opening brace, but it's a good place to
put a comment, so in practice the number of added lines may not be so
large.


a small caveat: it breaks code which looks like this:

    def test_varargs1(self):
        """some text"""
        {}.has_key(0)

this function is taken from Lib/test/test_call.py, but the doc string
was added to make my patched Python reject it with a syntax error.
the problem is that a brace at the same indent level as the line above
will always mark the beginning of a new suite.  I don't think such
code is widespread, but would be interested in hearing contrary
experiences.  one fix for this issue is to have the parser tell the
tokenizer whether "a suite may follow" when it asks for the next
token, but I haven't persued writing such a patch.

a patch relative to Python 2.4a2 is available at

  http://heim.ifi.uio.no/~kjetilho/hacks/braces-python-2.4a2.patch

what do you think?  should I write a PEP?
-- 
Kjetil T.


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 11:17:57 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 08:17:57 -0700
Subject: remaining decorator syntax options
References: <d11dcfba.0408101133.4943f06b@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1472.1092171803.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <d11dcfba.0408110717.3668e9c3@posting.google.com>

Shalabh Chaturvedi <shalabh at cafepy.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1472.1092171803.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> @staticmethod
> @foo.moredecoration(a="hello",b="world")
> @foo.bar.baz()
> def myfunc():
> 
> vs.
> 
> using [staticmethod ,foo.moredecoration(a="hello",b="world"), foo.bar.baz()]
> def myfunc():
> 
> (I find the first version clearer.)

Yup.  Though I think most people would write the second option
something like:

using [staticmethod,
       foo.moredecoration(a="hello",b="world"),
       foo.bar.baz()]
def myfunc():

(with, of course, a hundred different tabulation options there, but
you get the idea).  My point was that with the keyword, you save a lot
of keystrokes using the list if you have a large number of decorators,
but with a single symbol, of course, using a list only adds
keystrokes.  You make some good points though, and I would be just as
happy with:

using staticmethod
using foo.moredecoration(a="hello",b="world")
using foo.bar.baz()
def myfunc():

> Btw, I think your summary of the current state is good. However I feel a 
> new keyword has been pretty much ruled out as well.

Can you refer me to some pages that made you feel this way?  GvR said
that he "won't rule it out just because of the new keyword":

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047001.html

I also haven't seen any arguments against keywords that said anything
but basically "introducing a new keyword might break existing code". 
Not that this isn't a valid argument, but as Python has gone through a
similar process recently for 'yield', I'd feel more like keywords were
ruled out if I heard some other arguments.

Steve


From max at alcyone.com  Mon Aug 23 21:13:10 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 18:13:10 -0700
Subject: Getting at the bits of a 32-bit integer
References: <85b54e91.0408231552.75f85727@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.2250.1093306507.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<412A8B00.A81AA015@alcyone.com>
	<mailman.2251.1093309740.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <412A9626.CB94955@alcyone.com>

Phil Frost wrote:

> Then you have paid the cost of a bool, and then some.

If someone's interested in using a bitfield to store flags, they're
obviously interested in more than one bool!  Now you're talking about
one long vs. a list and n bools.

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor.
    -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.


From rubyguru at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 24 23:42:55 2004
From: rubyguru at hotmail.com (Chris Dutton)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 03:42:55 GMT
Subject: Inline Conditionals?
In-Reply-To: <T4QWc.11126$2L3.9389@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <mailman.2307.1093385983.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<T4QWc.11126$2L3.9389@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3VTWc.200749$M95.84528@pd7tw1no>

Adonis wrote:
> How about something like:
> 
> 
>>>>def iif(condition, true=True, false=False):
> 
> ...     if condition:
> ...             return true
> ...     return false
> ...

Just a thought, but this would have unexpected results if used with 
function calls, if those function calls had side-effects, since both are 
evaluated, whereas the ternary operator in other languages only 
evaluates one of the possible expressions.


From tim.peters at gmail.com  Sat Aug  7 17:18:32 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 17:18:32 -0400
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
In-Reply-To: <cf3dna$891$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu> <cf3b56$gt6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>
	<m3y8kqpw2l.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
	<cf3dna$891$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>
Message-ID: <1f7befae04080714183678907e@mail.gmail.com>

[Jarek Zgoda]
>>> Come on, guys, fix real problems like interpreter thread safety,
>>> improve performance, don't make us, "real-world software
>>> developers", screaming with every new release, please.

[Michael Hudson]
>> http://www.python.org/patches/

[Jarek]
> You want to say "if you want any improvement, do it yourself"? Sure,
> it's much better than Java's JCP, but expect
> http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/F/fork.html if enough people will share
> the same annoyance and anger.

I don't understand.  If you believe that nobody is volunteering work
on things you want them to work on now (which may well be true,
although it's false that volunteers don't contribute work on thread
and performance issues already), how could merely forking Python make
such volunteers appear?

> I write some free software, but I never tell users "go fix it yourself".
> This is rude.

Under the assumption that volunteers exist who want to work on what
you want them to work on, but that they've somehow managed to miss
Python's patch tracker, Michael was helpfully giving them the one clue
they still needed to make you happy <wink>.


From mike at nospam.com  Mon Aug 16 17:30:10 2004
From: mike at nospam.com (Mike Rovner)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:30:10 -0700
Subject: Flython?
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca><411cbcb1$0$3894$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net><W9qdnWhf8u7MI4HcRVn-ow@powergate.ca><30260531.0408131856.5ef3b0d3@posting.google.com><sMednfL4zqTR3b3cRVn-rA@powergate.ca>	<2oc547F86br8U1@uni-berlin.de><mailman.1747.1092675573.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2oc7ufF86br8U2@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <cfr910$bhb$1@sea.gmane.org>

Daniel Ellison wrote:
> Mike Rovner wrote:

> The swf file format is proprietary, yes, but the spec is public; you
> can download it from Macromedia's web site, as Peter did recently.

Right. Thanks for the tip.
Here is the link:
http://www.macromedia.com/software/flash/open/licensing/fileformat/ (v7)

Mike





From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug  3 19:03:12 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 19:03:12 -0400
Subject: Crypto.PublicKey.RSA.error: Plaintext too large
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1103.1091572142.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1094.1091546280.5135.python-list@python.org>	<HZmdndW9gsV8L5LcRVn-rg@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1103.1091572142.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <CuCdnUpgaY4vhI3cRVn-sA@powergate.ca>

Ajay Brar wrote:

> Peter Hansen wrote:
>> Ajay Brar wrote:
>>> I am getting an error - Crypto.PublicKey.RSA.error: Plaintext too 
>>> large - when verifying the signature of a document. ...
>>
>> Carriage Return/Line Feed problems?  Or trailing newline problems?
> 
> thats what i am going to investigate now. But even if there were 
> trailing newline or carriage return characters, shouldn't the verify 
> return false instead of giving the error.

I couldn't say, not having used that particular API.  What does
the documentation say it should do?  Always return just True or
False?  Does it not make reference to this type of error?

-Peter


From sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au  Fri Aug 13 02:54:11 2004
From: sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au (Sam Holden)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 06:54:11 GMT
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<mailman.1583.1092378965.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnchopcj.grl.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:35:58 +1000,
	Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 01:11:54 +0000 (UTC), Nick Patavalis
><npat at efault.net> wrote:
>> > Don't complicate it. Leave it as is. Work on making it faster, not
>> > uglier.
>> 
>> Python needs drastic performance improvement if it is to scrap-off the
>> "scripting language" stigma.
>
> I'm biased, having done a paper on this at the most recent PyCon, but
> I firmly believe that much of the "Python is too slow" arguments can be
> answered with "too slow for what?" See the pycon proceedings, but I've
> been doing VoIP in Python, complete with audio mixing, and it's been 
> more than fast enough. 

I've also been doing rtp voice in python - on an iPAQ H3800... I'm using
your rtp.py code (I'm not doing sip), so I can't take credit for it
though :)

I dont know if it's "more than fast enough", but it's "fast enough".

-- 
Sam Holden


From timothy.grant at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 19:49:27 2004
From: timothy.grant at gmail.com (Timothy Grant)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:49:27 -0700
Subject: Sound file manipulation in Python
In-Reply-To: <uu0upzj72.fsf@yahoo.co.uk>
References: <uu0upzj72.fsf@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <e775286d0408261649152e9f46@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:24:33 +0100, Paul Moore <pf_moore at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Does anyone know of a Python library which handles sound file formats
> (MP3, Ogg, FLAC are the three I'm nost interested in). I'd like
> something that can manipulate "metadata" - stuff like artist, title,
> album tags. I'm not critically interested in format conversion, or
> playing sound files - I can handle that with other applications.
> 
> I'm using Windows, and Python 2.3, if it matters (as it might for C
> extensions).
> 
> I can manage with just reading the metadata, but ideally writing
> would be useful, too. Multiple libraries is OK, but I need something
> more than just MP3.
> 
> If there's nothing available for Python, does anyone know of a good C
> library that could be wrapped? (Or used via ctypes, maybe).
> 
> Thanks,
> Paul.
> --
> Ooh, how Gothic. Barring the milk.
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 

I'm playing with some of those things right now. You may want to look
at mad and id3tag. I know there are several others that allow you to
work with ID3 Tags.


-- 
Stand Fast,
    tjg.


From ivan at ivan-herman.net  Sun Aug 15 07:28:22 2004
From: ivan at ivan-herman.net (Ivan Herman)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:28:22 +0200
Subject: importing node into document
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1655.1092496181.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1655.1092496181.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <411f48c8$0$123$1b2cd167@news.wanadoo.nl>

In terms of XML two documents represent two different 'worlds'; a Node 
also includes a reference to its own document, ie, you cannot easily 
mix/merge etc, nodes in different namespaces. This reference is read 
only. (As I already answered in one of your other messages, you should 
really consider looking at the original DOM specification. That clearly 
flags the 'ownderDocument' as 'readonly'!).

What you have to do is (recursively) create a new node in your target 
document with the name of the original, then copy the attributes and 
(recursively) the children.

Ivan





Ajay wrote:

> hi!
> 
> is there an equivalent for the Java document.importNode in Python
> what i am trying to do is to import a node from a different document into
> the current document and then append it one of the nodes in the current
> document
> tempNode.ownerDocument = node.ownerDocument
>  #the above gives an error saying i am trying to modify a reda-only
> attribute
>  #if i omit the statement, the statement below throws an error saying they
>  #the nodes are from different document
> node.appendChild(tempNode)
> 
> thanks
> 
> cheers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From adurdin at gmail.com  Sat Aug 21 23:31:43 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 13:31:43 +1000
Subject: Overriding logical operators?
In-Reply-To: <Michael.J.Fromberger-6F99B3.21380121082004@localhost>
References: <mailman.2095.1093066795.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-6F99B3.21380121082004@localhost>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a04082120316c23ebfb@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:38:01 -0400, Michael J. Fromberger
<michael.j.fromberger at clothing.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> 
> The implementation of "and" and "or" are special, as others have pointed
> out.  However, you do have some control over how they behave for objects
> of user-defined classes.  By overriding __nonzero_, you can define
> whatever truth value you like for instances of a user-defined class.

I suppose now I ought to say why I need to to do more than that. I've
got a situation where I want to construct an expression, but evaluate
it later when I get more information. I came up with a "DelayedEval"
class, the instances of which can have operations performed on them,
but the result is not evaluated until a particular method is called.
I'm currently overriding all the operators I can, so that these
instances can be handled in a fairly normal fashion for the most part.
For example:

foo = DelayedEval()
foo = (-foo + 15) * 3
foo_positive = (foo >= 0)

print foo.evaluate(10)      # prints 15
print foo.evaluate(20)      # prints -15
print foo_positive.evaluate(10)      # prints True
print foo_positive.evaluate(20)      # prints False

In this situation, merely overriding the __nonzero__ method will not
allow me to delay the evaluation of the logical boolean operators; to
do that I need to be able to override them.

The alternative solution that I can see to the issue is to use lambdas
to create the expressions I need, and calling them to evaluate them,
e.g.:

foo = lambda v: (-v + 15) * 3
foo_positive = lambda v: (foo(v) >= 0)

This will work, but having to manually chain the evaluation in this
way is a little awkward. It also doesn't allow me to print the
expressions. With the DelayedEval class, I can do this:

print foo_positive      # prints  (((-(value) + 15) * 3) >= 0)


From ramen at lackingtalent.com  Wed Aug  4 12:08:36 2004
From: ramen at lackingtalent.com (Dave Benjamin)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:08:36 -0000
Subject: checking whether a var is empty or not
References: <cec880$8ct$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu> <opsbxubr1g1v4ijd@musicbox>
	<slrnch0vat.rhb.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
	<ap%Pc.22247$%r.245331@nasal.pacific.net.au>
Message-ID: <slrnch23e1.rhb.ramen@lackingtalent.com>

In article <ap%Pc.22247$%r.245331 at nasal.pacific.net.au>, Dave Cole wrote:
> Dave Benjamin wrote:
>>
>> No, in PHP, you can find out if a variable exists using isset(). And trying
>> to dereference an uninitialized variable will generate a warning if you have
>> error reporting turned up all the way (error_reporting(E_ALL)).
> 
> >>> def isset(var):
> ...     return var in globals()
> ...
> >>> print isset('var')
> 0
> >>> var = 43
> >>> print isset('var')
> 1
> 
> Not that I can see any good use for this :-).

Not that there's *any* reason to do anything like this, *ever* ;) but...

>>> import inspect
>>> def isset(v):
...     return v in globals() or v in inspect.currentframe().f_back.f_locals
...
>>> isset('a')
False
>>> a = 5
>>> isset('a')
True
>>> def f():
...     b = 6
...     print isset('b')
...     print isset('c')
...
>>> f()
True
False
>>> c = 42
>>> f()
True
True

Verdict: Just catch the NameError, already! =)

-- 
  .:[ dave benjamin: ramen/[sp00] -:- spoomusic.com -:- ramenfest.com ]:.

"When the country is confused and in chaos, information scientists appear."
Librarian's Lao Tzu: http://www.geocities.com/onelibrarian.geo/lao_tzu.html


From ThomasBartkus at Comcast.net  Fri Aug 13 15:35:52 2004
From: ThomasBartkus at Comcast.net (Thomas Bartkus)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:35:52 -0500
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <XoednR2CrslDi4DcRVn-iw@telcove.net>

<beliavsky at aol.com> wrote in message
news:3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760 at posting.google.com...

<snip>
    > One of the most commmon reasons programmers cite for not trying Python
    > is that indentation determines the program flow -- they think its
    > weird.

    > I wonder if there is a way to remove this initial barrier.

Why?  Do we you really want to let just *anyone* in :-)

When I explain this about Python and I start hearing that flak, I simply
agree and suggest that Python is not for you.

Some people should be *forbidden* to move outside of java or VB :-)
Thomas Bartkus




From peter at engcorp.com  Sun Aug 22 08:37:44 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 08:37:44 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WEDONE?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2136.1093150593.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2136.1093150593.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <p4qdnbnvwYWCDrXcRVn-tA@powergate.ca>

Robert Brewer wrote:

> Paul Rubin wrote:
>>Looks like "declare" to me ;-)
> 
> I agree, for reasons which will become clear in the proposal draft.
> 
> I'd be most interested to hear arguments _against_ "declare", if there
> are any.

Somehow "declare" suggests to me a much stronger meaning than
what these decorators are about.  In other languages, you
actually "declare" data types or functions.  Decorators are
not so significant, as they merely decorate the function
to-be-defined.

"using" seems best to me, largely because it is fairly non-specific
(i.e. doesn't have strong connotations of one specific type of
decoration, such as 'staticmethod' versus 'author' or some such)
and because, as Francesco pointed out, it does seem to introduce
a following required clause, where "decorate" and "declare"
do not (though for different reasons).

-Peter


From tdelaney at avaya.com  Wed Aug  4 00:11:23 2004
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy))
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 14:11:23 +1000
Subject: Can somebody help me ?
Message-ID: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01C8BFA3@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#prune
http://homepages.tesco.net/~J.deBoynePollard/FGA/questions-with-yes-or-n
o-answers.html

Tim Delaney


From secun at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 24 10:31:55 2004
From: secun at yahoo.com (ChrisH)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:31:55 GMT
Subject: Can't run program on Eclipse 3 w/pydev 0.4.2
References: <99bb88dc.0408231246.580a0f73@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <MPG.1b951b87e5213a96989689@news2.atlantic.net>

The current release is 0.5.3.

It will work with Eclipse 3.
http://pydev.sourceforge.net/


In article <99bb88dc.0408231246.580a0f73 at posting.google.com>, 
chakari at acsalaska.net says...
> I am trying to run a Python program with the above setup, but I get an
> exception error during launch; Error within Debug UI. This happens on
> Windows 2000 and on my Linux system. Has anyone run into this, and if
> so, found a fix?
> 


From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Wed Aug 11 17:31:41 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:31:41 -0700
Subject: SQL Qeries via XMLRPC
References: <mailman.1423.1092099390.5135.python-list@python.org><3ovlu1-l6f.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<mailman.1492.1092226236.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <uqfqu1-3i6.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> it's fairly easy to plug in your own transports (just subclass
> Transport, override as necessary, and pass an instance of your custom
> transport
> to the ServerProxy class).

I did actually try for two weeks.  In my case I wanted both the
persistent connections, and also to work over HTTPS (I had
to use m2crypto for the SSL not the stuff builtin to Python
in order to deal with certificate issues).

I had to give up in the end.  The thread on "useless destructors"
was particularly appropriate as a lot of the code was manually
closing things and most of the work was to try and circumvent
that.  I ended up just using SSH (paramiko) which took me about
two hours :-)

Someone as illustrious as yourself may be able to fix it,
but I do believe it will be harder than it initially appears :-)

Roger 




From olivier.parisy at free.fr  Sun Aug 29 06:31:57 2004
From: olivier.parisy at free.fr (Olivier Parisy)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 12:31:57 +0200
Subject: Enumerating Network Adapters
Message-ID: <4131b09e$0$13683$636a15ce@news.free.fr>

Hi all,

I'd like to get, in a portable way, a list of all
network adapters on a local machine running some
python code.

socket.gethostname() does not seem enough, as it
only returns one name ; I'd like to get all
available IPs.

I could process ipconfig or ifconfig outputs, but
this is OS-dependant and not very future-proof...

Best regards,
Olivier Parisy.



From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Aug 18 10:42:20 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 10:42:20 -0400
Subject: generating uuids / guids
References: <2nhnrfF13jq0U1@uni-berlin.de> <cf8nui$1uo$1@panix1.panix.com>
	<f57664b9.0408180524.721a3421@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfvpsc$pqj$1@panix3.panix.com>

In article <f57664b9.0408180524.721a3421 at posting.google.com>,
Jonathan P. <jbperez808 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) wrote in message news:<cf8nui$1uo$1 at panix1.panix.com>...
>>
>> Sure it would.  Best way to start is to create a stand-alone third-party
>> library that implements the full DCE spec.  Once it has proven its
>> utility and stability, send a note to python-dev suggesting that it be
>> added.
>> 
>> Keep in mind that UUID generation is a somewhat complex and tricky
>> business will likely require some kind of C library support (to get the
>> MAC address, to check if there's already a system-level UUID/GUID
>> generator present, to provide a "good" UUID if there's no network card,
>> and so on).
>
>Aren't there already uuid generation routines in both Linux and
>Windows and wouldn't all that's needed be to wrap them in Python?

Absolutely.  However, I don't know if any of them are cross-platform,
and if you have any intention of getting this into the standard library,
it'll need to be readily available on any platform with an ANSI C
compiler.  Packaging is *NOT* trivial, and that's precisely why it's
rare to see code added to the standard library until it has proven
itself.

If you can find a way to implement this in pure Python, that probably
gives the biggest boost to the likelihood of getting into the standard
library.  Python 2.4 is too far along to add this; that gives you 12-18
months for working this into usable shape.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From jjl at pobox.com  Thu Aug 12 15:42:33 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 20:42:33 +0100
Subject: ClientCookie
References: <6f402501.0408110018.1e4e5ca8@posting.google.com>
	<87acx1qo1z.fsf@pobox.com>
	<6f402501.0408120113.746639d4@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <874qn8i1na.fsf@pobox.com>


fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord) writes:
[...]
> The program I'm writing is a CGI. I'd like to have *minimum*
> dependencies.
> The version of Python on the server is 2.2 (I have no control over
> that) and having a dependence on CookieClient is enough for me. I
> think I can only use BSDDBCookieJar if the server has the Berkely
> Database installed ?

Yes.


> I'd like other people to be able to use my CGI on
> a basic Python 2.2 install - so even if I have it on my server, I
> don't want to be dependent on it.
[...]

The BSDDB-wrapper is a fairly standard Python std. lib. module for
unix machines.  I don't know what small-scale commercial CGI hosting
companies offer ATM, though.


John


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 30 03:05:13 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:05:13 +0200
Subject: If the string module is deprecated...
References: <lTcYc.42310$v86.13422@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <1gjabby.tbyc63wg8zdrN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Paul McGuire <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> wrote:

> ... what will become of the module-level constants, such as uppercase,
> digits, hexdigits, etc.?  Will they become class-level constants of the str
> class?

That would seem the most natural solution, yes.  Taking advantage of
that change, it might be good to have in classes str (and unicode) only
real constants, independent of locale, and move locale-dependent stuff
to module locale.  Other related issues were debated in the relatively
recent past on python-dev -- e.g., if we have str.digits, how do we
discourage beginners from (most likely incorrectly) testing 'if c in
str.digits' where they should be coding 'if c.isdigit()' instead?  Or do
we?  Or should we perhaps make str.digits (&c) instances of a funky
black-magic subclass of str with a __contains__ method whose semantics
are quite different from str's own implementation of that method?  It is
definitely true that beginners just love coding tests such as 'if c in
str.digits' &c... they're doing so in droves today with string.digits...
I don't recall a consensus being reached, which may be why nothing much
has happened yet on this score.


Alex


From kosh at aesaeion.com  Mon Aug  2 04:51:44 2004
From: kosh at aesaeion.com (kosh)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 02:51:44 -0600
Subject: transforming a list into a string
In-Reply-To: <ceg471$f5d$07$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <pan.2004.07.31.12.27.23.547000@hotmail.com>
	<ceg471$f5d$07$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <200408020251.44520.kosh@aesaeion.com>

On Saturday 31 July 2004 6:44 am, Peter Otten wrote:
> jblazi wrote:
> > Let us assume I have a list like
> >
> > ['1','2','7','8','12','13]
> >
> > and would like to transoform it into the string
> >
> > '{1,2},{7,8},{12,13}'
> >
> > Which is the simplest way of achiebing this? (The list is in fact much
> > longer and I may have to cut the resulting strings into chunks of 100 or
> > so.)
> >
> >>> from itertools import izip
> >>> items = ['1','2','7','8','12','13']
> >>> it = iter(items)
> >>> ",".join(["{%s,%s}" % i for i in izip(it, it)])
>
> '{1,2},{7,8},{12,13}'
>
>
> Peter

This way also works I am not sure how it compares on large sets for memory 
usage, cpu time etc.

items = ['1','2','7','8','12','13']
if len(items)%2 == 0:
    #the len check is to make sure that the length of the set is evenly 
    #divisible by 2
    output = "{%s,%s}" * (len(items)/2)% tuple(items)


From paolo_veronelli at yahoo.it  Fri Aug 13 07:25:35 2004
From: paolo_veronelli at yahoo.it (paolo veronelli)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:25:35 +0200
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
In-Reply-To: <X5qdnYRQdNY_s4HcRVn-rA@powergate.ca>
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>	<mailman.1566.1092328555.5135.python-list@python.org>	<EvadnaOm3bItNIbcRVn-iQ@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1573.1092340533.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<X5qdnYRQdNY_s4HcRVn-rA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <opscn4oxxadgjose@mail.yahoo.it>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:59:46 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:

> paolo veronelli wrote:
>
>> This 'old' method doesn't allow to prepone it,I think a statement was 
>> the way to allow this ,but why impone it?
>
> Sorry, that's not English, and I'm afraid I can't infer what
> you mean by "prepone" and "impone"...  (impone apparently
> means "to wager", but I don't think that's what you meant).

This f=mutate(f) method doesn't allow to be stated before the def of f,I 
think a statement (in place of a function call) is the right way to allow
a declaration on f before the def of f,but why put it before has to be an 
obligation ?
If we don't specify the name of the function after the new keyword we are 
obliged to put the decoration statement in that place (right before the 
def).
If python is not a democracy (I wouldn't shout it happy anyway),this 
doesn't mean there should be no freedom.


Still awful I know ;-]
	Paolino


-- 
....lotta dura  per la verdura



From jerf at jerf.org  Mon Aug 23 22:00:44 2004
From: jerf at jerf.org (Jeremy Bowers)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 02:00:44 GMT
Subject: Getting at the bits of a 32-bit integer
References: <85b54e91.0408231552.75f85727@posting.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.23.20.16.40.406025@jerf.org>
	<412a98f4$0$65569$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.23.22.00.38.749194@jerf.org>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 01:25:09 +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> However, I must challenge your need to do this in the first place.
> 
> That's a bit, um, conceited.

I said "challenge", not "deny". If you're new to Python and you are
twiddling bits, the odds favor the new user falsely importing old
paradigms from other languages, not needing to do the twiddling. Of
course, in lieu of a problem specification, that's all we can say.

I stand by my message. (And before you jump on this one, please understand
that I use language precisely; unlike a lot of people, when I say "odds
favor", I mean just that. It is not code for "not a chance in hell" or
"absolutely".)


From ziller at gmail.com  Sat Aug  7 11:57:56 2004
From: ziller at gmail.com (ziller)
Date: 7 Aug 2004 08:57:56 -0700
Subject: Importance of C# (was Re: IronPython-0.6 is now available!)
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>	<ce9cp3$g39$1@bagan.srce.hr>
	<5dydnZSDZaARoZXcRVn-ug@powergate.ca>	<1n5z28erh2m3u.dlg@baczek.net.invalid>	<FvCdnVnESJR0ZpXcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.921.1091114694.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <537ea4cd.0408070757.14790cfe@posting.google.com>

> After reading a tutorial on c#, I see immediately that it has all the
> features that I disliked in Java.
> 
> 1) Everything is derived from "Object"

Pure OO is supposed to be an advantage.  Otherwise casting hacks have
to be used and understood.

> 2) Some things have value semantics, some have reference

Like arrays having reference semantics?  That's how memory is layed
out in assembler, C, <real programming language writing against the
machine>.  This just shows how you need a little understanding of how
the architecture works under the hood to really grasp why things are
done a certain way in a language.  It's intuitive and correct if you
understand it properly (and there is no alternative if speed is a
concern).

> 3) No multiple inheritance

This has been covered to death.  MI implementation is a nightmare. 
I'm sure some design pattern would map any 'needed' MI solution to an
equivalent one using interfaces and SI.

> I'm not sure about 2 others:
> 
> 4) No serious generic programming support

It'll be there for 2.0.  And the implementation is superb (much like
Eiffel's generics)

> 5) Only OO supported:

Good.  I didn't like OO originally either.  But if you just look at it
from the perspective of having another layer of abstraction then it
does make lots of sense pragmatically (a good thing: sort of like
modules->packages).

Isn't it...<insert party-line nonsense here>


From sjdevnull at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 10 02:09:36 2004
From: sjdevnull at yahoo.com (G. S. Hayes)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 23:09:36 -0700
Subject: decorators vs GIL
References: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>
	<mailman.1345.1091924284.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<96c2e938.0408081605.706f8ec7@posting.google.com>
	<cf8n4s$b7u$3@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>
	<10hg5r1hr3g361a@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <96c2e938.0408092209.490d48c5@posting.google.com>

Jeff Shannon <jeff at ccvcorp.com> wrote in message news:<10hg5r1hr3g361a at corp.supernews.com>...

>  Threads seem to only be essential when 

> long-running background tasks are involved.  There's a large set of GUI 

> programs where this is not an issue.  



Threads aren't essential even there; processes are not only acceptable
but preferrable in most cases.



The rest of your post was spot-on, exactly the points I've been trying
to convey.


From peter at engcorp.com  Wed Aug 25 09:45:55 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:45:55 -0400
Subject: Python future performance and speed
In-Reply-To: <tyfu0urpq33.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<roy-37CEFC.10153622082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<wt6dncL0d4DMJLXcRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>
	<tyfu0urpq33.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
Message-ID: <XJCdneIjnYUACrHcRVn-sQ@powergate.ca>

Jacek Generowicz wrote:
> Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> writes:
>>The last time I checked, Java and C++ (even C) were widely
>>considered to be high level languages.
> The fact many people hold an erroneous belief, does not make said
> belief any less erroneous.

Though if you are the only one who holds the "correct" belief,
and everyone else has the erroneous belief, it should suggest
a possible direction for you to look in resolving the conflict. ;-)

>>Has someone been raising the bar while I wasn't looking?
> The developers of all the truly high-level languages ?
> 
> There was a time when assembler was high-level.

For those of us who still use assember from time to time,
C is definitely still a high level language...

-Peter


From jepler at unpythonic.net  Tue Aug 24 14:45:54 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:45:54 -0500
Subject: Time-date as an integer
In-Reply-To: <412ADFCB.5070902@earthlink.net>
References: <412ADFCB.5070902@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20040824184553.GB8826@unpythonic.net>

datetime.utcnow() is implemented in terms of gettimeofday, for platforms
that have it.  So is time.time().

I suggest that you use
    def calcNodeId(self): return long(time.time() * 1e6)

Note that on this system (a 2.4GHz desktop PC), I can write a Python
program that calls time() close enough together to get the same timestamp
twice, though calls to calcNodeId are consistently taking over 1usec.
If you're relying on this method to give you unique identifiers on
a system that will run a few years from now---or even a machine just
50% faster than this one, or after the next, faster version of Python
is released--- with identifiers being generated at full tilt, you'll
probably be disappointed.

    def main():
        from time import time
        min_diff = 1
        min_t = None
     
        for i in range(1000):
            t = time(), time()
            diff = t[1]-t[0]
            if diff < min_diff:
                min_t = t
                min_diff = diff
     
        print min_diff, min_t
     
    main()

    $ python mindiff.py
    0.0 (1093372528.113651, 1093372528.113651)
    $ python mindiff2.py # version using calcNodeId
    1 (1093372993811409L, 1093372993811410L)

Jeff
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From roy at panix.com  Sun Aug 15 20:54:53 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 20:54:53 -0400
Subject: Python secure?
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<411ffef6$0$65603$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <roy-F5E2AB.20545315082004@reader1.panix.com>

In article <411ffef6$0$65603$a1866201 at newsreader.visi.com>,
 Grant Edwards <grante at visi.com> wrote:

> On 2004-08-15, Roger Binns <rogerb at rogerbinns.com> wrote:
> > Calvin wrote:
> >> Sorry I should have said I'm new to programming let alone Python. I
> >> wish to know whether Python is secure as an exe for a commercial
> >> product.
> >
> > Yes.  Anyone who recovers your "code" and/or uses it will be in
> > violation of copyright
> 
> I don't see how decompiling is a copyright violation.  If I buy
> a copy of a book, I'm pretty sure I can translate it into
> another language if I want to form my own use.
> 
> Unless the license under which use of the program was granted
> forbade de-compiling and reverse-engineering, I don't see why
> decompiling is illegal.  In some places (Europe?)
> reverse-engineering is explicitly allowed by law.
> 
> 
> > and several other laws. 
> 
> What other laws?
> 
> > That is legal protection no matter what languages or
> > combination of languages you use.

It is illegal for you to walk in my front door when I'm not home, take 
my silverware, and leave with it.  I am basing this statement on the 
laws applicable to where I live (New York City), but am reasonably sure 
it's pretty much the same in most places.

That being true, it's still a good idea for me to lock the door when I 
leave the house.


From crichton314 at btinternet.com  Sun Aug 22 19:36:38 2004
From: crichton314 at btinternet.com (John Crichton)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 16:36:38 -0700
Subject: Jython/Python and javax.swing.*
References: <2004082212534416807%birded@verizonnet>
Message-ID: <3b2846c4.0408221536.54bdf1e5@posting.google.com>

Sherrod Faulks <birded at verizon.net> wrote in message news:<2004082212534416807%birded at verizonnet>...
> I'm using Jython and in the python script I do:
> 
> from javax import swing
> result = javax.swing.JOptionPane.showInputDialog(wC, cmd[8:],"Prompt 
> from " + client.serverName, JOptionPane.PLAIN_MESSAGE)
> 
> wC is a JFrame, cmd is a String and client.serverName is a String.
> It won't show the JOptionPane, why?

Hi Sherrod,

Hope this helps. It's a bit longer than your script. (I've also
changed
'client.serverName' to 'client_serverName' to make my script work -
but this is only cosmetic and 'client.serverName' will work fine in
your script assuming
it resolves to a string.)

import javax.swing.JOptionPane as JOptionPane
import javax.swing.JFrame as JFrame
wC = JFrame('jython')
cmd = 'JythonJython'
client_serverName = 'name'
result = JOptionPane.showInputDialog(wC, cmd[8:],"Prompt from " +
client_serverName, JOptionPane.PLAIN_MESSAGE)

Best wishes,

John


From FBatista at uniFON.com.ar  Fri Aug  6 12:24:10 2004
From: FBatista at uniFON.com.ar (Batista, Facundo)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 13:24:10 -0300 
Subject: Finding a function name
Message-ID: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C7772@escpl.tcp.com.ar>

[Tim Williams]

#- How can I find a function's name from within the function?

Use inspect.stack().

.	Facundo


From mattduke at ugcs.caltech.edu  Thu Aug 26 14:43:10 2004
From: mattduke at ugcs.caltech.edu (Matt Doucleff)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 11:43:10 -0700
Subject: tarfile's tar.extractfile() file-like object incompatible with
	pickle.load()?
Message-ID: <3e6d6c21.0408261043.264c3a2d@posting.google.com>

Hi everyone!  I must be doing something wrong here :)  I have a
tarball that contains a single file whose contents are a pickled
object.  I would like to unpickle the object directly from the tarball
using the file-like object provided by extractfile().  Attempts to do
this result in EOFError.  However if I first extract to a temporary
file, then unpickle from there, it works.  The below code reproduces
the problem (on my machine at least).  I'm running Python 2.3.4,
manually installed on Debian Woody (original python removed).  Thanks!

This sample code creates (and then removes) files in the tmp directory
and in the current working directory.

# demonstrates extractfile/unpickle failure (bug?)

# pickle a dict to a temp file
# create tar file, add temp file to it, close tar file
# open tar file for reading
# obtain file-like object for pickled file using extractfile()
# attempt to unpickle dict from file-like object
# fails with EOFError exception

import tarfile
import pickle
import tempfile
import os

if __name__ == '__main__':
    try:
        hashtopickle = { 'a' : 1, 'b' : 2 }

        # pickle to temp file
        (fd, tmpfilename) = tempfile.mkstemp()
        tmpfile = os.fdopen(fd, 'w')
        pickle.dump(hashtopickle, tmpfile)
        tmpfile.close()
    
        # create tar; add temp file
        tar = tarfile.open('tarpickle.tar', 'w')
        tar.add(tmpfilename, 'pickledhash')
        tar.close()
    
        # remove temp file
        os.remove(tmpfilename)
    
        # open tarfile for reading, get filelike
        tar = tarfile.open('tarpickle.tar', 'r')
        filelike = tar.extractfile('pickledhash')
    
        # fails
        hashcopy = pickle.load(filelike)

    finally:
        # cleanup
        os.remove('tarpickle.tar')


From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug 30 18:01:14 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 22:01:14 GMT
Subject: "Content-Length" header
References: <ch05dt$t0p@odak26.prod.google.com>
	<41339d7a$0$8090$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408302339500.1162-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <4133a3aa$0$8090$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-30, Peter Kleiweg <in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid> wrote:
> Grant Edwards schreef:
>
>> I'll tell you _one_more_time_:  use Ethereal.  Here's the
>> transaction for your first URL:
>>
>>   GET /~harnad/temp/ariadne-rae.doc HTTP/1.0
>>   Host: www.ecs.soton.ac.uk
>>   User-agent: Python-urllib/1.15
>>
>>   HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found
>>   Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 21:27:42 GMT
>>   Server: Apache/1.3.27 (Unix)  (Red-Hat/Linux) mod_ssl/2.8.12
>>   OpenSSL/0.9.6b DAV/1.0.3 PHP/4.3.2 mod_perl/1.26
>>   Connection: close
>>   Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
>>
>>   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//IETF//DTD HTML 2.0//EN">
>>   <HTML><HEAD>
>>   <TITLE>404 Not Found</TITLE>
>>   </HEAD><BODY>
>>   <H1>Not Found</H1>
>>   The requested URL /~harnad/temp/ariadne-rae.doc was not found
>>   on this server.<P>
>>   <HR>
>>   <ADDRESS>Apache/1.3.27 Server at www.ecs.soton.ac.uk Port
>>   80</ADDRESS>
>>   </BODY></HTML>
>>
>> THERE IS NO CONTENT-LENGTH HEADER.  What do you expect urllib
>> to do?
>
> That is because you made a typo.

No, I didn't. I did a cut/paste to transfer his code into a
file and run it.   The OP's program is using invalid URLs.

> Use the correct url, and you do get content-length.

Tell that to the guy who wrote the friggin' program that
contained the URLs.

> WTH is Ethereal?

www.ethereal.com

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  I want to TAKE IT
                                  at               HOME and DRESS IT UP in
                               visi.com            HOT PANTS!!


From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 14 01:44:48 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 00:44:48 -0500
Subject: reading shell output in parallel
In-Reply-To: <e3805b94.0408132029.3da41729@posting.google.com>
References: <e3805b94.0408132029.3da41729@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <LEhTc.3089$bJ2.20469@news1.mts.net>

Steve wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm pretty new to python.  I am trying to write a simple application
> that can read the stdout output from a command in linux.  I've tried
> using x = commands.getstatusoutput() but this only gives back the
> output in x after finished executing.  I would like to read the
> contents as it is being shown on the screen and then send parts of
> this info over a simple client/server setup.  I have the client/server
> part set up already.
> 
> Can anyone suggest a simple way to do this?  
> 
> Thanks for your help, I appreciate it.
> 
> Steve

http://docs.python.org/lib/os-newstreams.html


popen2 module
http://docs.python.org/lib/module-popen2.html

import popen2
cmd_stream = popen2.Popen3(cmd, 1)
return_code = cmd_stream.wait()
for output in cmd_stream.childerr.readlines():
     cmd_output += output


You might just want to use popen2/3/4 instead of the class objects.  It 
just depends on your specific needs.  What is being printed may be from 
   stdout and/or stderr.  Experiment to see what's really coming from where.


From nospam at nowhere.hu  Sun Aug  8 10:14:09 2004
From: nospam at nowhere.hu (Miklós)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 16:14:09 +0200
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu> <cf4ms8$30v$1@news.uni-kl.de>
	<cf4rs6$i3l$1@namru.matavnet.hu> <cf59f7$ips$1@news.uni-kl.de>
Message-ID: <cf5chb$q1u$1@namru.matavnet.hu>


"Dominic" <nomail at nomail.nomail> wrote in message
news:cf59f7$ips$1 at news.uni-kl.de...
> > And perhaps he might stay healthy longer than that young one who eats
each
> > and every new nutriment and colourful shiny berries. <wink>
> Yes, there is some truth in here.
> I knew you were going to write that. ;-)

Sure thing I wrote that. :-)

> Nevertheless, I think Python has been
> pretty feature complete and I am not
> sure if @decorators are good or bad.

Decorators, the way things are now, will IMHO actively entice people to
abuse code.
A flawed analogy is computed goto's.  We all know by now that 'goto' is evil
;-) but computed goto's (albeit made code flow 'more powerful')
only worsened reading the  spaghetti code which results in the usage of
goto's.

> As far as I know they are part
> of C# and Java (recently).
> Maybe some experience and data
> has been gathered by them.

Dunno anything about C# but Java decorators are not that 'dynamic'. And IMHO
this is a good thing in this case.

Cheers,
  Mikl?s

>
> Ciao,
>   Dominic




From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Aug 24 02:23:11 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:23:11 +0200
Subject: function taking scalar or list argument
References: <412a2bce$1_1@127.0.0.1>
	<9ZCdnT9EuudK3bfcRVn-tA@comcast.com><10il11q5uqfg4ad@corp.supernews.com>
	<loom.20040824T052140-517@post.gmane.org>
	<mailman.2266.1093326354.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgemsg$vdc$03$1@news.t-online.com>

Terry Reedy wrote:

> 
> "Steven Bethard" <steven.bethard at gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:loom.20040824T052140-517 at post.gmane.org...
>> Well, you can always test for the protocol, e.g.:
>>
>> def twice(x):
>>     if hasattr(x, "__iter__"):
>>         return map(twice, x)
> 
> In 2.2.1:
>>>> hasattr([1,2,3], '__iter__')
> 0
> so this does not seem to work as you seem to expect.  hasattr(iter(x),
> '__iter__') will.

No it won't:

[Python 2.2]
>>> hasattr(iter(1), "__iter__")
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
TypeError: iteration over non-sequence


Here the only reliable test for iterability is to just try it.
Unfortunately, while in most cases you want to treat them as scalars,
strings are iterables, too.

In 2.3 Steven's proposal works:

>>> hasattr(1, "__iter__")
False
>>> hasattr([], "__iter__")
True

Peter



From kirk at eyegor.jobsluder.net  Sun Aug 22 11:59:37 2004
From: kirk at eyegor.jobsluder.net (Kirk Job-Sluder)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 15:59:37 GMT
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<roy-37CEFC.10153622082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<wt6dncL0d4DMJLXcRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <slrncihgmc.aqm.kirk@eyegor.jobsluder.net>

On 2004-08-22, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> Roy Smith wrote:
>
>> Speed is the primary limitation for mainstream acceptance of high level 
>> (aka scripting) languages in general.  

> Far more likely, it seems to me, is that the primary limitation
> for mainstream acceptance of scripting languages(*) in general
> is ignorance. 

I think there are a few other reasons as well.  I think that the general
python policy of making things clear and obvious is incompatible with
software business models that consider compilation and distribution of
executables as a way to hide trade secrets.  

Another problem with interpreted languages is that the interpreter and
libraries for might be moving targets.  I've not specifically had any
problems with python, but I have had problems with an update to R
killing functionality for a library I was using.  I've also have had
problems with some Java applications depending on which JRE I might be
running on a system. 




From tom at livelogix.com  Wed Aug 25 23:50:31 2004
From: tom at livelogix.com (Tom Locke)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 20:50:31 -0700
Subject: Best processor (i386) for Python performance?
Message-ID: <789f72ac.0408251950.e85d23e@posting.google.com>

Hi All,

I'd be grateful if anyone could provide insight into choosing a good
i386 processor for Python performance.

Are any of the following of particular importance, or less relevant,
with respect to Python?

Raw clock speed?
Cache size?
Bus speed?
Intel's Hyperthreading?
AMD's 64 bits?

What about a dual processor? Can multithreaded Python take advantage
of this? Is it stable?

Thanks very much,

Tom.


From martin at koekenberg.net  Thu Aug 26 08:04:42 2004
From: martin at koekenberg.net (Martin Koekenberg)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:04:42 +0200
Subject: TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'NoneType' and
	'str'
References: <3ptpi0h6i94l7c6raml10o4d3sml2e1etf@4ax.com>
	<cgj5c2$l70@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <fckri056s13ol037kqqs1k1aui7c333qiu@4ax.com>

Ok mayby that is the solution. but.... 

How do I set this environmet variable ??
I don't have a lot of linux experience ;-)

Thanks,

Martin Koekenberg

On 25 Aug 2004 15:54:58 -0700, "Brett C." <brett at python.org> wrote:

>Set your  environment 'CC' environment variable to gcc and it should go
>away.



From askari at addressNonValide.com  Fri Aug 27 16:55:56 2004
From: askari at addressNonValide.com (Askari)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:55:56 GMT
Subject: Canvas scrolling - scrollBar become "disabled" on change in canvas
Message-ID: <Xns9552AC6C9E279askariaddressNonVali@207.35.177.135>

Hi,
   I do a "perso"widget where have two scrolls (one vertical, one 
horizontal) for a canvas.
When, the first time, I added widget in the canvas, the scroll self-ajust 
and when I move scrollbar, the surface's canvas "moved". But when I deleted  
(.destroy) this first widgets and that a added other widget, the scrollBar 
become disabled (ajust for no scroll on the canvas). What/where is the 
problem?


I use basic widget (scrollBar, Canvas, Frame, etc.) from library's Tkinter 
(and python 2.3.4 on WinXp Pro (sp1))

Askari


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 13:57:43 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:57:43 +0200
Subject: about presicion
References: <mailman.2518.1093611862.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1gj70q3.1takqhh16igmy4N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Batista, Facundo <FBatista at uniFON.com.ar> wrote:

> [alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com]
> 
> 
> #- I was wondering if it was posible to get very good presicion. I mean
> #- like to the to the 100 th or more decimal place. if so how?
> 
> In Python 2.4 you'll have the Decimal module:

...and that's surely the right choice if you want decimal arithmetic.
If you want binary float arithmetic with ridiculous numbers of bits of
precision, that's one of the GMP features wrapped by
gmpy.sourceforce.net ...


Alex


From jburgy at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 16 03:04:41 2004
From: jburgy at hotmail.com (Jan Burgy)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 00:04:41 -0700
Subject: Deep Black Magic in Python: please help
References: <807692de.0408130310.6e3ed9db@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1629.1092425178.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <807692de.0408152304.283fc76a@posting.google.com>

"Terry Reedy" <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote in message news:<mailman.1629.1092425178.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> "Jan Burgy" <jburgy at hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:807692de.0408130310.6e3ed9db at posting.google.com...
> >         return arg_dict["one"] + self.bar(arg_dict)
>  
> > It shouldn't be all that hard. My problem is the lookup of 'self.bar'. In
> > the AST it looks something like
> >
> >     CallFunc(Getattr(Name('self'), 'bar'), [Name('arg_dict')], None,
>  None)
> >
> > How do I find the corresponding function?
> 
> The lookup returns a bound method, whose structure is an implementation
> detail.
> 
> Completely untested suggestion, possibly not correct or possible:
> 
> Write an implementation-specific unwrap function.  Then either augment the
> source code
> 
> .... + unwrap(self.bar)(self, arg_dict) # self now an explict arg
> 
> or the analysis code to do the unwrapping.  For the latter, recognize
> Name('self') and replace the result of Getattr(Name('self'), 'bar') with
> unwrap(thereof) and, again, augment the arg list.
> 
> Terry J. Reedy

Hi Terry,

Thank you very much for your suggestion. I am not sure how it would
help though. What is preventing me now from already replacing the
result of Getattr(Name('self'), 'bar') with what I need? That's
precisely my problem however. Because Python is a dynamically typed
language, I have no information about 'self' at compile-time. Short of
saving context information while I am visiting the parse tree, I don't
know how to tell what class I am in.

Would-Meta-Classes-help-me-in-this-case-ly yours?

Jan


From calidusdk at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 23 18:37:37 2004
From: calidusdk at hotmail.com (Artemisio)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 15:37:37 -0700
Subject: line shift?  (baby steps 2)
References: <6daa8765.0408230412.6db365d6@posting.google.com>
	<2oueokFe36qgU2@uni-berlin.de>
	<NhqWc.5860$Y94.3343@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <6daa8765.0408231437.7c37130@posting.google.com>

> I was bored waiting on a compile so I hacked this up. It adds the \n and the 
> Please enter conversion type line and uses the previous poster's comment on 
> the using a dictionary.
> I added the conversion output text by makeing the value a list that is the 
> conversion and the text to display for the answer (I made them shorter 
> because I was lazy to type all the information). I also made the conversion 
> from US to EU more in line with the EUUS because I used those for testing 
> and the results were not coming out the same (course I am sure there is some 
> slack in there somewhere for the bank taking its share of the proceeds :) )
> Not sure if there is a slicker way to do the conversion/message - I am 
> relatively new to Python as well, so my code still ends up looking like C++ 
> lots of the time.
> 
> import string
> 
> currency = {"EUDK":(7.47,"? to DKK"),
>             "DKEU":(0.13,"DKK to ?"),
>             "USDK":(5.93, "$ to DKK"),
>             "DKUS":(0.16, "DKK to $"),
>             "EUUS":(1.19, "? to $"),
>             "USEU":(0.84, "$ to ?")}
> 
> while(1):
>     currency_choice= raw_input("\nPlease enter conversion type  or 'Exit': 
> ")
>     currency_str= str(currency_choice).upper()
> 
>     if currency_str == "EXIT":
>         break
>     if currency.has_key(currency_str):
>         amount_int= input("Please type the amount you wish to convert: ")
>         result = amount_int * currency[currency_str][0]
>         print currency[currency_str][1], " ", amount_int, " = ", result
>     else:
>         print("Sorry. At the moment we only support DKK, Euro and Dollars." 
> + "\n" \
>         "Type DKEU if you want convert from DKK to ?," + "\n" \
>         "EUDK if you want to convert from DKK to ?," + "\n" \
>         "DKUS if you want to convert from DKK to $," + "\n" \
>         "USDK if you want to convert from $ to DKK," + "\n"
>         "EUUS if you want to convert from ? to $," + "\n"\
>         "and USEU if you want to convert from $ to ?")

Thank you Jeff, that's classy! Also the exit function! Your hack will
keep me busy for at least one hour and a half (hence the mentioned
baby steps)

Allow me a remark though:

was the following output intended?

"Please enter conversion type  or 'Exit': euus
Please type the amount you wish to convert: 99
? to $   99  =  117.81"

I mean the last line. Or am I missing something?
Thanx!


From jmfbahciv at aol.com  Sun Aug 29 06:15:01 2004
From: jmfbahciv at aol.com (jmfbahciv at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 04 10:15:01 GMT
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4dyXc.25792$Ot3.22106@twister.nyc.rr.com>
	<878yc0ucyl.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<cgnr8l$egb$1@nntp.webmaster.com>
	<20040827135423.154$1T@newsreader.com>
	<cgp2u4$5nk$1@nntp.webmaster.com>
	<cgq7ki$eg1$1@hercules.btinternet.com>
	<87llfzqmck.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>
Message-ID: <4131bf4d$0$19722$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>

In article <87llfzqmck.fsf at thalassa.informatimago.com>,
   Pascal Bourguignon <spam at mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>Ian Wilson <scobloke2 at infotop.co.uk> writes:
>
>> David Schwartz wrote:
>> 
>> > <ctcgag at hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> > news:20040827135423.154$1T at newsreader.com...
>> >
>> >>"David Schwartz" <davids at webmaster.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>>    I don't follow you at all. I think you'll find the most useful,
>> >>>meaningful complaints about, say, a Ford Explorer from the people who
>> >>>drive one every day.
>> >
>> >>And if they continue to drive one everyday, perhaps you would conclude
>> >>that their complaints are insincere.
>> >     That's a load of crap.
>> >     DS
>> >
>> 
>> 
>> You're both right but ...
>> 
>> Xah Lee: "I'm starting my own cult to exterminate morons on
>> this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl."
>> 
>> Pascal Bourguignon: <Xah Lee's website runs on Linux, a Unix-like OS>
>> 
>> 
>> Is more like
>> 
>> Joe Blow: I'm going to exterminate all morons who drive a Ford Explorer.
>> 
>> Fred Bloggs: But Joe, you drive a Ford Explorer!
>> 
>> 
>> Rather than
>> 
>> Joe Blow: Ford Explorers are a little bit expensive to service and the
>> doors squeak after a couple of years.
>> 
>> Fred Bloggs: Thanks for the tip Joe, I see you drive one, so you
>> should know.
>
>Case closed.  (And probably Xah has suicidal impulses).

Nah, he's a Democrat of the Liberal flavor.

/BAH


Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 14 10:21:00 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:21:00 -0400
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <411e1810$0$18621$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
References: <9ADC3170-EDAF-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>	<mailman.1652.1092490554.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<411e1810$0$18621$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <cfl74q$47h$1@sea.gmane.org>

Christophe Cavalaria wrote:

> You are guilty of attacking the specific example instead of the general
> idea behind it.
> 

Yes, sorry, but I'm in a pickle here.  I want (we need) the general idea 
of decorators --- the realm of problems that decorators try to solve --- 
to be made smaller.  They should not be used to declare a method's type 
(static|instance|class).  Decorators may have some valid purpose, but 
this is not one of them.


> Of course, it doesn't mean that I don't like your idea. In fact, it find it
> elegant except the the "klass" word which is ugly.
> 

Thanks, but it's not my idea (well, a tiny part maybe).  The idea of 
inferring a method's type from the name of its first formal parameter 
was suggested by Stefan Eischet in another thread.




From rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm  Fri Aug 20 04:59:43 2004
From: rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm (Roel Schroeven)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:59:43 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl>
Message-ID: <34jVc.219716$n67.10885265@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

Gerrit Muller wrote:

> Roel Schroeven wrote:
> 
>> Roel Schroeven wrote:
>>
>>> I spotted some errors in your list, added new entries, and made a 
>>> histogram: http://roelschroeven.net/pythonages/
>>
>>
> Very cool. It might be good idea to add a date and time at the top, 
> since new datapoint keep coming in?

Done. Good idea indeed.

-- 
"Codito ergo sum"
Roel Schroeven


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Mon Aug  9 09:10:20 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 13:10:20 GMT
Subject: PEP-0318
References: <41122FC2.1080608@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1251.1091764482.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4114152f@nntp.zianet.com> <aIOdnRybBucMsIncRVn-gA@comcast.com>
	<4116bc20$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<mailman.1369.1092015284.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<c8neh0t41km1h79ufo4vkrhh78dt27vlok@4ax.com>
	<6NCdncg4ssq28orcRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <fkteh0pvalomnrm7tk8ial4sgjaj9jjkj8@4ax.com>

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 08:33:45 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com>
wrote:

>
>Therefore it will be before... the only important choice left
>seems to be what bizarre and arbitrary punctuation symbol will
>be chosen for the purpose.  (To be fair, it's not "arbitrary"
>any more: clearly the sole requirement for this is how loud
>and in-your-face the decorator symbol will be.  I don't know
>when this sort of thing became considered good style for Python,
>but this too is the new world order.)

I guess at this point I am reading the siutation along the following
lines:

That Guido is is intuitively or consciosuly uncomfortable with the
entire concept of decorators within the Python framework, while
recognizing some need to accommodate a segment of the community with
some special purpose fucntionality.

And either intuitively, or consciously, he is doing something that
offsets it from something truly intergrated into the core of the
language.  By breakling all of his own rules.

Quirky design, to be sure.  But, who knows, perhaps the best of the
bad choices.


>
>-Peter



From jbenson at lowell.edu  Thu Aug 26 20:20:59 2004
From: jbenson at lowell.edu (Jim Benson)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:20:59 -0700 (MST)
Subject: A newbie in need....
In-Reply-To: <9c3edc58.0408261609.6640e400@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408261716210.31295-100000@sextans.mesa.lowellnet>

On 26 Aug 2004, Chris Patton wrote:

> Hey everybody. I'm trying to make a program that requires a 2D field
> to run. Besides "curses" or "ncurses", is there a python module that
> will create a graph?
> 
> --Thanks for the help!
> 

matplotlib is a great python plotting package that might help you.
...sorry i haven't quite sorted out some upgrades i have done to my
home system so i can't give you the exact link....google for it
and you will find it.

Good luck,

Jim




From amajorel at teezer.fr  Tue Aug 31 14:21:20 2004
From: amajorel at teezer.fr (Andre Majorel)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 18:21:20 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<slrncj8m5n.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<%T%Yc.29567$Es2.11957889@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<du7k6vfnvx9.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>
	<4134a207$0$65568$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <slrncj9fpg.r0.amajorel@vulcain.knox.com>

On 2004-08-31, Craig A Finseth <news at finseth.com> wrote:

> The / was chosen as the command line option separator because whoever
> wrote MSDOS was looking to CP/M, who modelled their commands after a
> PDP-11 operating system (RT-11?).

Whoever = Tim Paterson, then working for Seattle Computer
Products. Interesting historical stuff at

  http://www.patersontech.com/Dos/

-- 
Andr? Majorel <URL:http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/>
Conscience is what hurts when everything else feels so good.


From a at c.d  Fri Aug 27 11:19:53 2004
From: a at c.d (Sean Don)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 15:19:53 GMT
Subject: Class Friends
Message-ID: <20040827081556.657c3fac.a@c.d>


Hello!

Is it possible to make classes friends in Python? Or is it better to just stick
to "Java style" .isThis, .getThat, .setThis style functions? 

I understand that classes are generally grouped logically into separate files
anyway. So, this isn't always necessary. But I'm a perfectionist and was
wondering if friendships were possible in Python.

Thank you!

sean_don4 at yahoo.com


From npat at efault.net  Tue Aug 17 02:29:39 2004
From: npat at efault.net (Nick Patavalis)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 06:29:39 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
References: <mailman.1661.1092519005.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7x7js1i887.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<slrnchug4m.n0d.npat@gray.efault.net> <zn4w2y3g.fsf@telus.net>
	<972ec5bd.0408152037.c50bcee@posting.google.com>
	<d61q94e7.fsf@telus.net>
Message-ID: <slrnci39ej.1h8.npat@gray.efault.net>

On 2004-08-16, Lenard Lindstrom <len-1 at telus.net> wrote:
>
> As for doing it in Python, coroutines can be implemented using 
> threads.
>

But threads cost! And how much they cost depends on the operating
system. Coroutines cost close to nothing, and are O/S independent. The
only reason to use O/S threads is if you need preemption, and if you
want to cater for parallel execution.

> Lenard Lindstrom
><len-l at telus.net>


From jpmorichon at earthlink.net  Thu Aug 12 00:52:16 2004
From: jpmorichon at earthlink.net (CptPicard)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 04:52:16 GMT
Subject: Print command
References: <mailman.1511.1092239223.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<WosSc.21396$Jp6.6141@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<2nv6roF54f7iU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <4ICSc.22155$Jp6.11433@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>


"Russell Blau" <russblau at hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2nv6roF54f7iU1 at uni-berlin.de...
> "CptPicard" <jpmorichon at earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:WosSc.21396$Jp6.6141 at newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> > I think that you should try:
> >     string.rjust('currentTotal',6)
> > instead of:
> >     string.rjust(`currentTotal`,6)
> >
> > You may also do it this this way:
> > 'currentTotal'.rjust(6)
>
> No, I think he really did want the "backwards" single quotation marks.
They
> *are* different, you know...
>

Actually, I don't know the meaning of  ``.
On some languages, it means "evaluate": Is it the same meaning in Python ?

>
> --
> I don't actually read my hotmail account, but you can replace hotmail with
> excite if you really want to reach me.
>
>






From flacco002 at spambadTwilight-systems.com  Mon Aug 30 18:45:41 2004
From: flacco002 at spambadTwilight-systems.com (flacco)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 18:45:41 -0400
Subject: [IronPython] Jim Hugunin's web log.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2627.1093893089.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2627.1093893089.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10j7bfr6o0nf7af@corp.supernews.com>

David Wilson wrote:
> Anti-trust conspiracy theories aside, if Microsoft adopts Python as a 
> part of it's development toolset, the repercussions for Windows RAD and 
> scripting are massive, not to mention the effects it would have on the 
> average Python developer's wages and availability of work.

why in the world would we want to put aside the concerns about microsoft 
that we have, which you have "misnomered" under the umbrella term 
"anti-trust conspiracy theories"?


> This is perhaps the first time where I have been glad to see Microsoft 
> hijack something. Even if IronPython becomes a commercial offering, I'm 
> still sold.
[...]
> My apologies for the poor terminology, this really isn't my department. 
> Just got a feeling. :)

are you in advertising by any chance?



From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug 13 08:11:43 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 08:11:43 -0400
Subject: Flython?
In-Reply-To: <2o3ovjF6apnoU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121608180.11006-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<CISdnRTssu4zrYHcRVn-ow@powergate.ca>
	<2o3ovjF6apnoU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <YYadna8XbYZiMoHcRVn-sA@powergate.ca>

Daniel Ellison wrote:

> I *like* "Flython" as a name! :) A flying python! I can see the logo now...

So does that mean we would have "Monty Flython's @Pie-ing Circus"
if the @decorator debate is still going on by the time someone
implements a Flash compiler for Python?


From jepler at unpythonic.net  Fri Aug 20 18:47:21 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:47:21 -0500
Subject: esoteric question about dict keys (Re: age of Python
	programmers)
In-Reply-To: <4125D015.9090204@urv.es>
References: <4125D015.9090204@urv.es>
Message-ID: <20040820224721.GA1260@unpythonic.net>

There's no reason that the __getitem__ special method would not be
permitted to take a dict argument.

Many people will probably think that your use of Python's subscript
operator is a strange one, mostly because x[i] returns a single element
from x for lists, tuples, strings and dicts (the important built-in
subscriptable types), but your syntax will probably return multiple
rows.  In fact, this may be a problem of internal consistency, because
table[pkey_value] will presumably return a row object, not a sequence of
rows (or am I wrong about that, and you'll get a sequence of 1 row in
that case?)

Here's a program that uses dicts as arguments to the subscript operator.
"class Roda" takes a wordlist, and can either return the j'th word, or
all words with exactly N copies of some letter(s).

    class Roda:
        def __init__(self, wordlist):
            self.wordlist = wordlist

        def __getitem__(self, item):
            if isinstance(item, int): return self.wordlist[item]
            n = len(item)
            return [word for word in self.wordlist if len(
                        [None for (k, v) in item.items() if word.count(k) == v])==n]

    s = Roda(open("/usr/share/dict/words").read().split())
    print s[{'a': 3}][:10]         # first ten words with exactly 3 As
    print s[{'b': 2, 'c': 1}][:10] # first ten words with 2 Bs and 1 C
another problem this made me think of is that I don't see how to expand
this to "at least N", "at most N" or "from M to N" items, and likewise
for the kinds of query constraints you'd like to make (and can make in
SQL)

Well, anyway, if this really makes a big difference in the ease of
writing the code you need to write, and you're not too worried that
someone else who might maintain your code in the future won't be able to
understand it (documentation and comments would help here), then go
right ahead.

Jeff
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From amk at amk.ca  Thu Aug  5 17:38:22 2004
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 16:38:22 -0500
Subject: import random error
References: <7903bb89.0408051324.63ee1535@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <MqednXejDdtTNY_cRVn-oA@speakeasy.net>

On 5 Aug 2004 14:24:57 -0700, 
	Rob B <mrbrown200425 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I have such a feeling that this is either a) because I don't know what
> I'm doing or b) the python install is somehow strange. What is strange

It's a common mistake; the 'import math' is importing your math.py, not
Python's 'math' module.  Rename your file to random-test.py or something
else that doesn't conflict, and it should work.  

--amk


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 12:59:07 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 02:59:07 +1000
Subject: def ... decorate
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408132052020.3596@rnd.onego.ru>
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
	<slrnchnlm3.vq2.nick@irishsea.home.craig-wood.com>
	<16668.57321.308134.676624@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0408132052020.3596@rnd.onego.ru>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040813095978a56402@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 20:55:39 +0400 (MSD), Roman Suzi <rnd at onego.ru> wrote:
> 
> Bingo!
> 
> Just replace decorate with "from" and the nice syntax is found:
> 
>     def f:
>         staticmethod
>         grammarrule('statement : expression')
>         version("Added in 2.4")
>         deprecatedmethod
>         type_(None)
>     from self, p:
>         """docstring here"""
>         print p[1]

I _really_ _really_ dislike re-using 'from' in this way. It's really confusing.

I also don't like the way it's splitting the argument list out like
that. It's a _big_
change from how things work today, and will break pretty much _every_
tool that works with Python source, and badly.

For instance, I often end up doing some equivalent of "grep 'def funcname'"
and like the fact that I get the start (at least) of the argument
list. More often
than not, I get the full argument list, which is what I was looking for in the 
first place.


From mats at laplaza.org  Sat Aug  7 02:35:18 2004
From: mats at laplaza.org (Mats Wichmann)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 00:35:18 -0600
Subject: ANN: Dive Into Python published
In-Reply-To: <ceqs1j$909@odbk17.prod.google.com>
References: <ceqs1j$909@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.1.20040807003217.03762c48@mail.laplaza.org>

At 09:32 AM 8/4/2004, Mark  Pilgrim wrote:
 >I am pleased to announce that my Python book "Dive Into Python" is now
 >available on paper, published by Apress and weighing in at 432 pages.

Congrats, Mark.

I was at LinuxWorld Expo this week and stopped by Apress
and saw the book (sadly funds are tight so I didn't get
a copy).  They said the book had done extremely well so
far although it wasn't currently their hottest book,
their Plone book flew off the shelf (well, table) when
they were at OSCON last week.   This sounds like good stuff
for Python books in general!



From gregor.jan at NOSPAMquick.cz  Thu Aug 12 06:56:27 2004
From: gregor.jan at NOSPAMquick.cz (Jan Gregor)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 10:56:27 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: jython and java exceptions
References: <slrnch2dqk.1h3.gregor.jan@ins1.opera.com>
	<g74Rc.24553$Z14.7458@news.indigo.ie>
	<cfcs7u$1ajq$1@ns.felk.cvut.cz>
	<4_nSc.24773$Z14.7584@news.indigo.ie>
	<cfd9ss$1g8q$1@ns.felk.cvut.cz>
	<WVqSc.24784$Z14.7662@news.indigo.ie>
Message-ID: <cfficr$293o$1@ns.felk.cvut.cz>

All tests passed ok, but problem is still there. I didn't mentioned that
mysql works fine.

My system is debian, something between woody and testing version. At
home I have similiar debian upgraded moved so far from  potato to woody
to sarge - same behaviour.

Application runs from command line by 'jython TextConsole.py'. Jython is
version 2.1, running on java 1.4.2_05 (at home 1.4.1). PostgreSQL
(7.4.3) and jdbc driver (as jython) from debian testing distribution.


Jan


From jwkenne at attglobal.net  Tue Aug 31 17:48:07 2004
From: jwkenne at attglobal.net (John W. Kennedy)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:48:07 GMT
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.58.0408310949330.1813@zaphod.rite-group.com>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4PGdnfsOfdDPi63cRVn-tA@speakeasy.net>
	<slrncj1745.t5q.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<41337FC9.8070902@hotmail.com>
	<slrncj7hhh.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<p7v7j0plcfbden593l1irfprmfkp4d3k51@4ax.com>
	<slrncj8m5n.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<%T%Yc.29567$Es2.11957889@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<Pine.SOL.4.58.0408310949330.1813@zaphod.rite-group.com>
Message-ID: <rm6Zc.32509$Es2.13014983@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Rich Teer wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, John W. Kennedy wrote:
>>Yes, and also a single-process pipe emulator.  Ever since 2.0, MS has
>>been trying to turn MS-DOS (later, Windows) into a Unix clone.

> .... And has failed miserably to do so.

Not entirely.  Porting GNU software and the like to MS-DOS and Windows 
could be a hell of a lot more difficult than it is.  Try porting almost 
anything to, for example, the MVS (classic) environment (which is why 
MVS now also includes a Unix-wise alternate environment).

-- 
John W. Kennedy
"You can, if you wish, class all science-fiction together; but it is 
about as perceptive as classing the works of Ballantyne, Conrad and W. 
W. Jacobs together as the 'sea-story' and then criticizing _that_."
   -- C. S. Lewis.  "An Experiment in Criticism"


From ville at spammers.com  Sat Aug 21 12:06:41 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 19:06:41 +0300
Subject: Parsing C header files with python
References: <873c2gzftf.fsf@emit.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <du74qmwiige.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Ian" == Ian McConnell <ian at emit.demon.co.uk> writes:

    Ian> I've got a header file which lists a whole load of C functions of the form
    Ian> int func1(float *arr, int len, double arg1);
    Ian> int func2(float **arr, float *arr2, int len, double arg1, double arg2);

    Ian> It's a numerical library so all functions return an int and
    Ian> accept varying combinations of float pointers, ints and
    Ian> doubles.

    Ian> What's the easiest way breaking down this header file into a
    Ian> list of functions and their argument using python? Is there

Well, what comes immediately to mind (I might be overlooking
something) is that the function name is immediately before '(', and
arguments come after it separated by ','. Start with regexps and work
from there...  


-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From luismg at gmx.net  Mon Aug  2 18:27:39 2004
From: luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 15:27:39 -0700
Subject: New to Python/Programming
References: <10gsujk1og2gkbf@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <278de0e.0408021427.5b08fba8@posting.google.com>

I was in the same situation a few months ago. I wanted to learn
programming with a solid foundation of programming principles (OOP,
etc) but with a language that could allow me to do it without
unnecessary complications. Obviously, the choice was Python, so I can
tell you what worked for me:

1) Starting from zero: 
I recommend Josh Cogliati's "Non-Programmers Tutorial For Python".
It's a very easy to follow online tutorial that will teach you the
basics, with exercises and all you need to get started.
Although it is aimed to begginners, with the lessons learned you will
have a very good knowledge of python basics and programming in
general.
Find it here: honors.montana.edu/~jjc/easytut/easytut/ 
I recommend taking the time to do the exercises and play a little bit
after each lesson. They are very easy and simple, but take them
seriously.

2) After getting comfortable, you will want to get into the object
oriented side of programming. It's not hard, but it takes a mental
shift to begin thinking in objects. I learn best by example, and the
best one I found is Alan Gauld's online tutorial (there's a book also,
but the online version was just what I needed to "see the light"). You
can find it here: http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld/
If you swallowed Josh Cogliati's tutorial, you wont find nothing new
here for the basics, but there's a very good example of a banking
application that will help you understand the object oriented
paradigm.
I think this is a very good example for teaching OOP and it shows you
in a few lines all you need to know: classes, innheritance, etc..

After that, any other tutorial or book would be easy to follow.
I recomend these books:

- Lerning Python by Alan Lutz .This is the favorite of many people.
It's very good but not nessesary the best, at least not for me.
- Core Python programming by Wesley Chun. Another very good one.
- Python Bible (don't remember the author..)
- Python Visual Quickstart guide.

Take this advice:
Work with the online tutorials listed above. Take your time and follow
them at your own pace, and use also the official python tutorial which
comes with the IDLE (see the HELP menu).
There's no need to buy books, because I sincerelly think that all you
need is available online, but getting a book or two wont harm you...

Once you reach the comfortability level, you can go to a bookstore and
see briefly which style suits you best. All the books listed above are
very good
(and sorry for my english).

Good luck and enjoy...
Python is fun!

Luis


From rho at see.signature.invalid  Thu Aug 26 07:58:03 2004
From: rho at see.signature.invalid (Nigel Rowe)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 21:58:03 +1000
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10irk2ash04bpc6@news.supernews.com>

For.

-- 
        Nigel Rowe
        A pox upon the spammers that make me write my address like..
                rho (snail) swiftdsl (stop) com (stop) au


From donn at drizzle.com  Sat Aug 28 23:59:01 2004
From: donn at drizzle.com (Donn Cave)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 03:59:01 -0000
Subject: Dynamic languages
References: <278de0e.0408271349.26762174@posting.google.com>
	<1093650026.763899@news.commspeed.net>
	<98862c6.0408280531.6064d510@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1093751939.767733@yasure>

Quoth m_vddungen at yahoo.com (Marcel van den Dungen):
...
| Dynamic refers to the typing of variables. In Python variables get a
| type dynamically when assigned a value.
| See also: http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=4639
| and several blog posting of Bruce Eckel on this subject:
| http://www.mindview.net/WebLog/

I imagine they may actually have been looking at some version of
this: http://www.fact-index.com/d/dy/dynamic_programming_language.html
which goes beyond static vs. dynamic typing in the sense they
ordinarily seem to be used.  I'm not sure they really put their
finger on the main problem in the way of a Python compiler, but
whatever.

	Donn Cave, donn at drizzle.com


From anthonybol2 at netscape.net  Sun Aug 15 16:45:15 2004
From: anthonybol2 at netscape.net (TonyB)
Date: 15 Aug 2004 13:45:15 -0700
Subject: Seperating CSV rows into new, seperate files
References: <d28d42ec.0408131940.3b95e9bd@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1653.1092491778.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <d28d42ec.0408151245.44aa2901@posting.google.com>

OK,
With some off post help I was able to come up with this little ditty
of a script but it still has one more problem.  When I run the script
it creates new files for each specific class.  While talking through
the logic with a friend, I realized that the gradebook software that
will import the list will ignore duplicate rows.  Not the best
solution but I need it to work this week.  In any case, it appears
that the new files have some sort of additional line terminator that
creates a blank row in the outputted file making the importing of the
list impossible.   This is based on the fact that when I try to open
the new files in MS Excel, they have blank rows after each row of
data.   If I open them in a text editor such as Notepad, they look
identical to the source file (which can be imported to the gradbook
software).

Is there a way to SEE the newline terminators?
How can I use the csv.writer() to make sure there are no extra lines?

My Script:
**************************************
import csv

TEACHER_NAME = 4
COURSE_TITLE = 9
COURSE_NUMBER = 8
SECTION = 10

# Open the input file and read the file to memory (may be too big a
file? ~ 2MB?).
reader = csv.reader(file("sample.csv"))

def createFilename(teacher,title,number,section):
   '''
   We need to remove spaces from the fields for better formatting of
the file name
   '''
   import re
   regex = re.compile('[^.A-Za-z0-9-_]')
   filename = '%s_%s_%s_section%s.txt' % (teacher, title, number,
section)
   return regex.sub('_', filename)

for row in reader:
   filename = createFilename(row[TEACHER_NAME], row[COURSE_TITLE],
row[COURSE_NUMBER],

row[SECTION])
   fileobj = file(filename, 'a')
   newfile = csv.writer(fileobj)
   newfile.writerow(row)
   fileobj.close() 
**************************************

Thanks to those who have helped!

Maik R?der <roeder at berg.net> wrote in message news:<mailman.1653.1092491778.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> Hi TobyB,
> 
> > Hi,
> > I've searched the group and need more information and guidance on this
> > issue I need to resolve next week. I work for the local school system
> > and I am working on a way to parse a CSV file of class lists from MS
> > Excel.  It is a ~2MB file with all teachers and all their classes in
> > it.  I thought I would use Python to do this since many people I know
> > tell me how great it is. 
> 
> Pyhton is a good choice for treating texts.
> 
> > The real sticking point is there are
> > duplicates of each teacher's classes embedded in the file (don't ask
> > why).  I want to break up the source file into the seperate class
> > files without duplication and use the teachers name, coursecode and
> > section in the filename.
> > 
> > Example Data:
> > Last Name	First Name	Grade	Period	Teacher Name	
> > SMITH           JOHN	         8      1	JONES	SALLY
> > 
> > Student ID		Course Code	Course Title	
> > 12345678	        1234	         ALGEBRA I
> > 
> > Course Section	Session
> > 1	        0
> > 
> > 
> > The course code and section number are the same in the duplicate
> > classes.  The difference is that the session number changes.   I'm
> > thinking that I will need to somehow iterate through the lines and
> > break the class when the course code changes and/or section change
> > (course codes can be the same but section numbers change with each
> > class).  Then I have to monitor the session number to see if there is
> > a duplicate course code and section but a different session number
> > would indicate that the class is a duplicate. Essentially, the session
> > number will be 0, 1, or 2 for a total of three lists of the same
> > class. Hopefully that makes sense.  Again don't ask why the data is
> > like this.
> > 
> > My humble attempts have not been very successful.  I've been trying
> > the csv modules to read the file but I am not sure how to procede
> > after that.
> > 
> > Any guidance is greatly appreciated.
> 
> Use Python lists and dictionaries.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Maik R?der


From kirk at eyegor.jobsluder.net  Mon Aug  9 10:20:53 2004
From: kirk at eyegor.jobsluder.net (Kirk Job-Sluder)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:20:53 GMT
Subject: Paul Graham on Python hackers
References: <cf1p1f$ke0@odak26.prod.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.07.10.51.16.393303@teliko.net>
	<slrncha2q0.1sd3.kirk@eyegor.jobsluder.net>
	<3064b51d.0408090448.31806af5@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <slrnchf27h.23hf.kirk@eyegor.jobsluder.net>

On 2004-08-09, beliavsky at aol.com <beliavsky at aol.com> wrote:
> Kirk Job-Sluder <kirk at eyegor.jobsluder.net> wrote in message news:<slrncha2q0.1sd3.kirk at eyegor.jobsluder.net>...
>  
>> In previous writings Graham tends to focus more on language fundamentals
>> rather than the scope of features or the process of compilation.  Python
>> is closer to Java in that they are both strongly Object Oriented languages in
>> contrast to perl's OO framework that feels more bolted on than integral
>> to me.
>
> Python, unlike Java, does not force OOP upon you -- it can be treated
> as an imperative language. I think this is a plus especially when
> first learning the language or writing small programs. A Hello World
> program is just
>
> print "Hello, World"

However, and I see this as a pretty important distinction.  Most things
in python are objects.  "Hello, World" in python is more than just a
reference to a series of bytes terminated in a null.  

>>> "hello world".capitalize()
'Hello world'
>>> "hello world".upper()
'HELLO WORLD'
>>> "hello world".find('or')
7

> class HelloWorldApp {
>     public static void main(String[] args) {
>         System.out.println("Hello World!"); //Display the string.
>     }
> }

The differences here are trivial from what I can tell.  What is
happening here are three things:
1: the creation of a class boundary around the program.
2: the creation of a main function that runs when the program starts.
3: output of a string to STDOUT.

Python does #1 and #2 implicitly unless given instructions to do
something different:
http://www.python.org/doc/current/lib/module-main.html

#3 is provided by defining print as a built-in statement that masks
writing to sys.stdout().  

The magic of python is that its Object Orientation is so
well-implemented that it takes away much of the pain and suffering
imposed by Java, and even by C++. These code snippits just show that
python is a high-level OO langugage as opposed to Java which is a lower
level (middle level) OO language.

Of course you can use OO languages to do imperative programming.  (A
fact greatly lamented by OO purists.)  You can even do imperiative
programming in java once you set up your main function.  However, I've
found that most languages are built in such a way to make one paradigm
easier than another.  The thought of OO programming in gnu lisp sends
chills down my spine.  OO programming in perl is doable but cumbersome.

But as an example of what Graham was walking about, we need only look at
the manpages for perl and python.

The perlobj manpage says:

    First you need to understand what references are in Perl. See perlref
    for that. Second, if you still find the following reference work too
    complicated, a tutorial on object-oriented programming in Perl can be
    found in perltoot and perltootc.

In contrast the python manpage simply says:
    Python is an interpreted, interactive, object-oriented programming lan-
    guage  that  combines  remarkable power with very clear syntax. 

In perl5, objects are thin wrappers around references.  Python just
says, "I'm an object oriented language" and then goes on to tell you how
to use the large numbers of available objects.  

--
KirK


From harald.koschinski at friatec.de  Tue Aug 10 10:00:16 2004
From: harald.koschinski at friatec.de (Harald Koschinski)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:00:16 +0200
Subject: Pythondirector
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed20408060139648b62d9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45654bdb.0408060030.41f1e973@posting.google.com>
	<e69d3ed20408060139648b62d9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4118D4F0.9010909@friatec.de>


>Don't know - I don't think I've seen that. The bugs I have seen in
>this area are generally to do with switching between groups - any 
>current connections end up going into the new bucket, rather than
>the old. I have a plan to fix this, involving a dictionary of open connections
>and a 'zero out stats' button, but I've not had time to spend on fixing 
>it.
>
>
>  
>
Hi

I tested first with "twisted" 1.3.0. In this configuration pydir seems 
to hang sporadical in a courious way (one Browser hangs - another is 
working) - so I changed to "asyncore" and this worked.
Is twisted 1.3.0 recommended / can it be the reason for the hangers?
Can "asyncore" be the reason for wrong calculated / really not closing 
connections ??

Harald




From godoy at ieee.org  Mon Aug 30 09:23:12 2004
From: godoy at ieee.org (Jorge Godoy)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:23:12 -0300
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<1LMXc.67190$UTP.37420@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj7a9r.g7ec5a1g89rj0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<m3wtzk4562.fsf@g2ctech.com>
	<just-18D650.10163828082004@news1.news.xs4all.nl>
	<m3sma5zqx0.fsf@g2ctech.com>
	<just-BA4B64.22210729082004@news1.news.xs4all.nl>
	<m3oektzkj2.fsf@g2ctech.com>
	<just-498748.08324330082004@news1.news.xs4all.nl>
	<m3ekloont2.fsf@g2ctech.com>
	<just-273E92.15035830082004@news1.news.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <m3u0ukn4jj.fsf@g2ctech.com>

Just <just at xs4all.nl> writes:

> In article <m3ekloont2.fsf at g2ctech.com>, Jorge Godoy <godoy at ieee.org> 
> wrote:
>
>> Because the implementation that allowed to unzip the "directory" and
>> find the files in there would also allow to place the '.pyc' in a
>> different place such as the real directory where the zip file resides.
>> 
>> Python didn't use to open zip files also, and now it does.  I don't see
>> nothing wrong with making it also writing the '.pyc' files.  Do you? 
>
> Yes, because it's conceptually inconsistent with how "regular" imports 
> work.

So here, we have our thoughts taking two separate ways.  I don't see too
much inconsistency here.  You do.  :-)

But, packaging the ".pyc" solves the problem...  Just warning that they
are not generated after the packing is a good advice to have.  It
wouldn't hurt anybody (and takes less time than we took talking about it
here). 


Be seeing you,
-- 
Godoy.     <godoy at ieee.org>


From nomail at nospam.no  Sat Aug 21 13:48:36 2004
From: nomail at nospam.no (Dominic)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 19:48:36 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <cg81qp$icc$1@news.uni-kl.de>


I am 25 years old and I use Python at least since version 1.5.
I have started programming on the Atari 1024STFM
with ST- and Omikron-Basic.
Later on the PC I used:
Power Basic|Quick Basic
Turbo Pascal|Assembler
Borland C/C++

Today I usually use Python and C (gcc,mingw).

Ciao,
  Dominic





From alan.gauld at btinternet.com  Thu Aug  5 05:33:28 2004
From: alan.gauld at btinternet.com (Alan Gauld)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 09:33:28 GMT
Subject: curses
References: <xChQc.11436$Jp6.10842@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4nv3h0129nl4akfo59efqgpvd5fgfev6t5@4ax.com>

On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 03:14:37 GMT, "Cecil H. Whitley"
<c-do-not-spam-me.whitley at earthlink.net> wrote:
> second reading I found that curses is not supported on windows.  

It is under cygwin if that helps...

Alan G


Author of the Learn to Program website
http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld


From thats at it.com  Mon Aug 23 19:00:08 2004
From: thats at it.com (Baalbek)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 01:00:08 +0200
Subject: urllib hangs
In-Reply-To: <a6fdfd6b.0408231416.45a7e050@posting.google.com>
References: <a6fdfd6b.0408230902.2afc0e08@posting.google.com>
	<cgdaoh$1gn$01$1@news.t-online.com>
	<a6fdfd6b.0408231416.45a7e050@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <rFuWc.2838$WW4.34331@news4.e.nsc.no>

Didn't he just say: "For older python versions, ask google for 
timeoutsocket.py"?


Jay Donnell wrote:
> Thanks, but I'm on python 2.2 and don't have the ability to upgrade it
> on the server. How would I do this in 2.2?
> 
> 
>>since 2.3 there's socket.setdefaulttimeout(), this should to the job:
>>
>>import socket
>>socket.setdefaulttimeout(10)
>># throw socket.timeout exception after 10s,
>># default is to wait a infinitly (or at least a very, very long time...)
>>
>>For older python versions, ask google for timeoutsocket.py



From David.Vaughan at Gifford.UK.com  Wed Aug  4 06:20:20 2004
From: David.Vaughan at Gifford.UK.com (David Vaughan)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 11:20:20 +0100
Subject: Subclassing file class
Message-ID: <C59AEFCA2D33284B8EE3C0A8C8C9004A108453@kiwi>


I'm using v2.3, and trying to write to text files, but with a maximum
line length.  So, if a line is getting too long, a suitable ' '
character is replaced by a new line.  I'm subclassing the file class,
and, as long as I just use the write method, this works fine.  But
"print >>" doesn't behave as I want:

class max_width_file(file):
    def write(self, txt):
        print "In max_width_file's write method."
fout = max_width_file('foo.txt', 'w')
print >> fout, 'bar'
fout.close()

bypasses my write method and prints 'bar' directly to the file.  That
isn't the behaviour I inferred from

http://docs.python.org/ref/print.html

How do I intercept "print >>"?  Has anyone already implemented this?
And should the documentation be changed?

Any help very welcome.
David



David Vaughan
Structural Analyst
for Gifford

GIFFORD AND PARTNERS LTD
Carlton House, Ringwood Road, Woodlands,
Southampton, SO40 7HT,  UNITED KINGDOM
 
Tel: +44 (0)23 8081 7500      Fax: +44 (0)23 8081 7600
Email: David.Vaughan at gifford.uk.com
Web:  http://www.gifford.uk.com

This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for
the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed and may
be confidential.  If you are not the intended recipient or the person
responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, be
advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use,
dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail is
strictly prohibited.


From nomail at nospam.no  Thu Aug 26 10:17:11 2004
From: nomail at nospam.no (Dominic)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:17:11 +0200
Subject: ANN: Python + Erlang = Candygram
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2370.1093452945.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2370.1093452945.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgkrc6$8jt$1@news.uni-kl.de>

Hi Michael,
nice too see that you have also tried to
bring some ideas from Erlang to Python ;-)

My toy-example can be found at:

http://groups.google.de/groups?q=erlang+group:comp.lang.python.*&hl=de&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=comp.lang.python.*&selm=b6q3pj%24mp3%2403%241%40news.t-online.com&rnum=7

Ciao,
  Dominic


From rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm  Thu Aug 19 18:23:49 2004
From: rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm (Roel Schroeven)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:23:49 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
Message-ID: <VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

Robin Becker wrote:

> Marius Bernklev wrote:
> 
>> "Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
>>> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
>>> about....
>>
>>
>>
>> 24.  (anyone keeping count?)
>>
> 
>>
> It's raining so I can't go home

Only Event Horizon on TV tonight...

I spotted some errors in your list, added new entries, and made a 
histogram: http://roelschroeven.net/pythonages/

number of datapoints: 95
mean: 35.6
standard deviation: 12.7

Gerrit Muller	47
Lucas Raab	14
OKB (not okbackle)	20
Jeremy Jones	31
Ben Last	39
Neuruss	34
Tony Clarke	55
simo	26
Elbert Lev	55
Kamilche	40
Gerardo Herzig	30
JanC	30
Mike Rovner	41
Guyon Mor?e	21
Tom Brown	35
Will McGugan	30
Christopher T King	19
Skip Montanaro	50
Marcin Jurczuk	26
Reid Nichol	27
Egbert Bouwman	67
VSOFTSMITH	62
Mark Jackson	55
Harry George	52
Stephen Ferg	58
Scott David Daniels	53
Peter Wilkinson	32
oziko	24
Dave Opstad	50
Adonis	23
Jorge Godoy	25
Peter Hickman	43
Axel Steiner	22
Larry Bates	49
Robin Becker	57
Thomas Heller	48
Paul McQuire	45
wes weston	55
P at draigBrady.com	30
Ian Sparks	34
Roel Schroeven	29
Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou	32
Gary Herron	52
Ksenia Marasanova	31
Marius Bernklev	24
Robert Boyd	40
Fred Pacquier	44
Jarek Zgoda	33
Leif K-Brooks	13
Peter Maas	48
Tim Jarman	42
Irmen de Jong	30
Ted	46
Roman Suzi	30
Dave Benjamin	25
Christian von Essen	18
Byron	28
R Baumann	55
Batista, Facundo	29
Jeff Shannon	35
Cousin Stanley	58
Berthold H?llmann	38
mensanator at aol.com	50
Ville Vainio	27
Istvan Albert	32
Andrea Griffini	38
Arthur Rambo	43
Beeyah	15
Eli Stevens (WG.c)	25
Bigbowser	15
Hemanth P.S.	32
richard	32
Marcos Eimil Pardo	28
Daniel Harding	25
Rod Haper	57
Bruno Desthuilliers	37
avaeq	19
Scott David Daniels	53
Alexandre Fayolle	30
Andrew Durdin	24
Max M	39
Ganesan R	32
Stefan Schukat	33
Robbie	18
Marc Boeren	34
Gerrit van Dyk	39
Oliver Fromme	33
Nicolas Evrard	27
vronskij at post.sk	25
Alan Kennedy	37
Francis Lavoie	25
Richard Hanson	53
brianc at temple.edu	20
Rex	17
Wilk    35

-- 
"Codito ergo sum"
Roel Schroeven


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Tue Aug  3 09:52:31 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 3 Aug 2004 09:52:31 -0400
Subject: Call for Grant Proposals
References: <40fcaa90$0$27091$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<410ED411.7090907@acm.org>
	<mailman.1074.1091491856.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<410ef314$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>
Message-ID: <ceo5av$6qi$1@panix3.panix.com>

Speaking as a PSF member who is or has been on some of the operating
committees, but not a member of the PSF board or the grant committee:

In article <410ef314$1 at news.unimelb.edu.au>,
Maurice LING  <mauriceling at acm.org> wrote:
>
>2. Will there be any form of intellectual property claims, including, 
>copyrights, trade marks, patents, on any form of work generated from the 
>PSF Grant by the Python Software Foundation (PSF) or any of its 
>associates? If so, what are the precise nature of it? This is important 
>as it may injure the research work and subsequently, the resultant 
>thesis and publications directing towards the award of my degree.

There will be no claims by the PSF itself unless you assign your work;
that follows more-or-less from choosing projects that are are Open
Source.

>3. On the website (http://www.python.org/psf/call-2004.html), it is 
>stated that the project of which the grant is granted for must be 
>completed by October 30, 2005. In event of failure to meet, what will be 
>the penalities?
>
>4. From Question 3, what constitutes partial failure or complete failure 
>of the project?

We don't know.  We're feeling our way into this.  I suspect people would
rather take a wait-and-see attitude until we actually have to deal with
these issues.

>5. From Question 4, it is stated on the website 
>(http://www.python.org/psf/call-2004.html) that a delivery plan is 
>essential in the proposal. How will delay in delivery affect the payment 
>plan and the grant on the whole?

We're talking about US$40K in grants total; I expect that grants will
simply be issued up-front for the most part.  (The PSF's total monetary
resources right now are around US$115K.)  I'd expect that if a grant
proposal ties payments to delivery targets, the penalty for missing
delivery will be delay of the next grant payment.

We're putting a certain amount of formalism into this because we have
to; however, you'll be much better off if you think of this as "Python
community money" that's being spread around to grease projects that are
having trouble getting traction.  There are basically two and only two
criteria that really matter:

* Will this project benefit a large portion of the Python community?

* Will giving money to this project move it forward?

Instead of asking general questions like this, why don't you simply tell
us what your proposal is, and we'll help you refine it before you send
it in to the grant committee?
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From michael at stroeder.com  Thu Aug  5 15:26:52 2004
From: michael at stroeder.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Michael_Str=F6der?=)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 21:26:52 +0200
Subject: ZServerSSL and Certificates
In-Reply-To: <3222fe00.0408050548.43b5f0fd@posting.google.com>
References: <3222fe00.0408050548.43b5f0fd@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <s8eau1-cq2.ln1@nb2.stroeder.com>

Sean wrote:
> 
> So I take privatekey.pem and the ca cert and combine them into a
> single file called ca.pem.

Why? The server's private key has nothing to do with the CA certificate.

> Then I:
> 
> # ./CA.pl -sign
> # openssl rsa < newreq.pem > newkey.pem

Nope. You don't have to issue a new cert.

> and I combine the server cert and newkey.pem and call it server.pem.

You issued another server cert without need for doing so.

> Microsoft IE6 first shows a request for a cert to use, I click OK to
> bypass it then a warning dialog that the ca is not trusted.

Yes. Since you installed your privately generated server cert instead of the
server cert issued by the CA.

Simply use the server cert you got back from the CA.

Ciao, Michael.


From ykingma at accessforall.nl  Thu Aug 19 03:37:08 2004
From: ykingma at accessforall.nl (Ype Kingma)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:37:08 +0200
Subject: Jython and super_reload?
References: <slrnci73a9.nj3.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
Message-ID: <412458a6$0$45379$e4fe514c@dreader19.news.xs4all.nl>

Dave Benjamin wrote:

> There have been several discussions here about how to write a reload()
> function that works for classes as well as modules:
> 
> http://groups.google.com
groups?sourceid=mozclient&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&q=super_reload
> 
> I have been trying to come up with a solution that works for Jython, and
so
> far nothing has worked. I was wondering if anyone has attempted or
succeeded
> in writing such a function for Jython.

This works for classes: 

http://www.jython.org/docs/jreload.html

You can unload a module in Jython by removing it from sys.modules,
and (off course) by removing all other references to it.

To be sure about what happens you can tell the JVM to be verbose
about garbage collection of Java classes, and explicitly call
java.lang.System.gc() in some test scripts.


Ype



From ctcgag at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 27 13:54:23 2004
From: ctcgag at hotmail.com (ctcgag at hotmail.com)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 17:54:23 GMT
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4dyXc.25792$Ot3.22106@twister.nyc.rr.com>
	<878yc0ucyl.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<cgnr8l$egb$1@nntp.webmaster.com>
Message-ID: <20040827135423.154$1T@newsreader.com>

"David Schwartz" <davids at webmaster.com> wrote:
> "Pascal Bourguignon" <spam at mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
> news:878yc0ucyl.fsf at thalassa.informatimago.com...
>
> > Kenny Tilton <ktilton at nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
> >> >>What you mean with Unixism?
> >> >     repeated accidents. Such a tool would
> >> >     first chop off the user's brain, molding
> >> >     a mass of brainless imbeciles and
> >> >     microcephalic charlatans the likes of
> >> >     Larry Wall and Linus Torvald jolly
> >> > Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
> >> >         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>
> >> So you like my approach, which is to condemn things they have never
> >> used?
> >>
> >> :)
> >
> > No, that of no more using things that you condemn.
>
>     I don't follow you at all. I think you'll find the most useful,
> meaningful complaints about, say, a Ford Explorer from the people who
> drive one every day.

And if they continue to drive one everyday, perhaps you would conclude
that their complaints are insincere.

Xho

-- 
-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
Usenet Newsgroup Service                        $9.95/Month 30GB


From kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no  Fri Aug 27 10:35:23 2004
From: kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Torgrim Homme)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:35:23 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87hdqok9i6.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1rfz68ely9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<876574k7du.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
Message-ID: <1r3c28ejis.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>

[Isaac To]:
>
>   When Python is concerned and Emacs is not, Python only sees there
>   is indentation, and only indentation, to define the suites.  And
>   it is also what people will perceive when they stare at the code.
>   There is nothing to be inconsistent with it.

how long do you have to stare before spotting the bug?

    db.update_name(person)
    if is_student(person):
        db.update_courses(person)
        db.commit()

only students have their names updated.  I wonder why.

real world examples have taken hours or days.
-- 
Kjetil T.


From schiffo2000 at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 30 18:29:50 2004
From: schiffo2000 at yahoo.com (Barry Schiffman)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 15:29:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: bad bsddb key/values on large data
Message-ID: <20040830222950.58737.qmail@web51407.mail.yahoo.com>

I'm trying to build a bsddb hash database for an
application, where it will be read-only.

Actually, the app will use three similar databases.
All appeared to be writen OK -- no errors -- and the
two smaller ones of around 50 megs each are correct.

The largest one, about 200 megs, is written, and can
be read, and the strings are correctly formatted --
but the values attached to the keys are wrong -- as if
values were overwritten when the hash gets large. In
searching on Google and the mailing list, I saw one
parenthetical remark about problems on large files,
but I cannot find anything that directly addresses
this problem. 

Can anyone tell me if there is such a Python problem
or a bsddb problem?

Thanks



		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


From max at alcyone.com  Wed Aug 25 18:38:52 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:38:52 -0700
Subject: Proposal for removing self
References: <mailman.2387.1093471726.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <412D14FC.BDF40BAD@alcyone.com>

"Batista, Facundo" wrote:

> [Brent W. Hughes]
> 
> #- When doing object-oriented stuff, it bothers me to have to
> #- type "self" so
> #- many times.  I propose that Python allow the programmer to
> #- optionally type
> #- ".variable" instead of "self.variable" to mean the same
> #- thing.  Of course,
> #- the interpreter would have to be more careful about
> #- detecting floats that
> #- begin with just a period as in ".5".  What are your thoughts?
> 
> I type less than read, so I prefer the code to be better readable than
> writable.
> 
> I'm -1 on your proposal.

Furthermore, I believe there's been some talk as a prefixed dot being
reserved for possible use in a "with" control structure at some point in
the future.  So using it to abbreviate self is definitely out. 
(Besides, this proposal is not new.)

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ You and I / We've seen it all / Chasing our hearts' desire
    -- The Russian and Florence, _Chess_


From listserver at tdw.net  Wed Aug 11 05:45:50 2004
From: listserver at tdw.net (Tim Williams)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:45:50 +0100
Subject: loading message thingy
References: <200408110901.i7B911cE012665@mailhub.wolfram.com>
Message-ID: <001401c47f88$17cf5500$ccbefea9@twilliams>

"Robbie" <user at domain.invalid> wrote in message
news:cfcndl$28em$1 at otis.netspace.net.au...

> Basically all I want to do is continuously write to the same line.
> So I could have a little rotating text thing showing that the script is
> working or display data ie, kb downloaded so far...
>
> ATM I am just calling a clear screen every pass with a little nap, nasty.
>

'\b' is a backspace, so.....

import sys,time

chars = ['|', '\\', '-', '/']
out = sys.stdout

def raw_print(txt):
    out.write("\b" + txt)
    out.flush()

while 1:
    for x in range(len(chars)):
        raw_print(chars[x])
        time.sleep(0.5)


Save as a script and run it from your command prompt.

>Also it would be nice to be able to change more than one line so I could
>have 4 threads open downloading something with 4 lines each stating the
>current status of each thread

The code above should be able to handle this too with a small amount of
modding ,   I'd use a simple queue to get the information back from the
threads in an ordered and safe manner

HTH



From Sibylle.Koczian at Bibliothek.Uni-Augsburg.de  Tue Aug  3 09:02:21 2004
From: Sibylle.Koczian at Bibliothek.Uni-Augsburg.de (Sibylle Koczian)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 15:02:21 +0200
Subject: MySQLdb select
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1064.1091481067.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <lGIOc.4961$AY5.4762@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>	<ceg5ca$ftn$1@newshispeed.ch>	<9RPOc.2792$LI7.1058@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>	<21064255.0408020908.41357e52@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1064.1091481067.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2n9gmuFuhk8kU1@uni-berlin.de>

Andy Todd schrieb:
> Not that it's vitally important, but the first statement I showed above 
> is more correctly written as;
> 
>  >>> cursor.execute("SELECT * FROM mytest WHERE address=%s", (string1,))
> 
> Because the second argument to the 'execute' method is a tuple of 
> parameter values to be substituted in the first argument - the SQL 
> statement.
> 
I'm quite surprised that it works the other way - but it does. Could it 
be that previous versions of MySQLdb raised an exception with the other form

cursor.execute("SELECT * FROM mytest WHERE address=%s", string1)?

Regards,
Koczian


From paddy3118 at netscape.net  Tue Aug 10 12:22:55 2004
From: paddy3118 at netscape.net (Paddy McCarthy)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 09:22:55 -0700
Subject: Larry Walls  'Pythonesque Perl'
Message-ID: <2ae25c6b.0408100822.49b3cce3@posting.google.com>

I was looking at http://www.python.org/moin/PerlPhrasebook section
2.1.1,
and was re-aquainted with a quote attributed to Larry Wall:
 "... You can program in a Pythonesque subset of Perl by restricting
yourself
  to scalar variables and references. The main difference is that Perl
doesn't
  do implicit dereferencing like Python does."

You *don't* get closer to Python by restricting yourself to scalers
holding references. Anyone who knows Perl but not Python would get
totally the wrong idea by contemplating the quote.

Cheers, Paddy.


From miki.tebeka at zoran.com  Mon Aug 30 17:19:56 2004
From: miki.tebeka at zoran.com (Miki Tebeka)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:19:56 +0200
Subject: Get Parent path value (bad design) Help
In-Reply-To: <CE90A4CF2E5E9C4890AE5D9D8A5EFAE301189734@CINMLVEM10.e2k.ad.ge.com>
References: <CE90A4CF2E5E9C4890AE5D9D8A5EFAE301189734@CINMLVEM10.e2k.ad.ge.com>
Message-ID: <20040830211956.GG680@zoran.com>

Hello Moiz,

> What I am trying to do is write some generic code where I can get the
> path of the parent directory. for example if current working directory is
> 'Z:\\dirA\\Parent\\Child'
> 
> I want to get a string which up like 'Z:\\dirA\\Parent'
> Then I do a sys.path.append('Z:\\dirA\\Parent')
Just use os.path.dirname

>>> from os.path import dirname
>>> dirname(r"z:\dira\parent\child")
'z:\\dira\\parent'
>>>

HTH.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Miki Tebeka <miki.tebeka at zoran.com>
http://tebeka.spymac.net
The only difference between children and adults is the price of the toys


From __peter__ at web.de  Mon Aug 23 14:27:41 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:27:41 +0200
Subject: function taking scalar or list argument
References: <412a2bce$1_1@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <cgdcut$3l3$01$1@news.t-online.com>

beliavsky at aol.com wrote:

> 
> I can define a function that transforms either a scalar or each element in
> a list as follows:
> 
> def twice(x):
>     try:
>         return map(twice,x)
>     except:

A bare except without the type of exception is always bad.

>         return 2*x
> 
> print twice(3) # 6
> print twice([1,4,9]) # [2,8,18]
> 
> Is this good style? I intend to define many functions like this and want
> to use the right method. Thanks.
 
I'd say you've just discovered a use case for a decorator:

def scalarOrVector(f):
    def g(arg):
        try:
            return map(f, arg) # or map(g, arg) if you want to allow 
                               # nested sequences
        except TypeError:
            return f(arg)
    return g

#@scalarOrVector
def twice(a):
    return 2*a
twice = scalarOrVector(twice)

print twice(3) # 6
print twice([1,4,9]) # [2,8,18]

Of course you will have to ensure that map(f, arg) _does_ throw an
exception.

Peter




From therning at gforge.natlab.research.philips.com  Wed Aug 11 04:20:24 2004
From: therning at gforge.natlab.research.philips.com (Magnus Therning)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:20:24 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Is there something else but Automake?
References: <cfaaan$pl3$1@voyager.news.surf.net>
	<mailman.1438.1092138966.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cfcks6$a3c$1@voyager.news.surf.net>

Miki Tebeka <miki.tebeka at zoran.com> wrote:
> Hello Magnus,
> 
>> I am currently using Automake to make distributable tar-balls of my
>> application. Is there something else (hopefully better) that I can
>> use?
> You might want to have a look at SCons (http://www.scons.org).  Great
> tool and written in Python, you can also use any Python code inside
> the configuration files.

Yes, I already know of SCons. There are quite a few things missing from
it though since it is a build tool mostly, and a configuration tool to
some extent, it explicitly isn't a distribution tool. I guess I'd have
to do a bit of work myself in order to get it to behave the way I want
it :-(

/M

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Magnus Therning                 Philips Research Laboratories Eindhoven
Phone: +31 40 2745179           (OpenPGP: 0x4FBB2C40)

X-Windows: ...A mistake carried out to perfection. 


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Sat Aug 28 14:05:49 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 20:05:49 +0200
Subject: pie-as-merely-syntax + decorator keyword
Message-ID: <HBF.20040828lmlh@bombur.uio.no>

I haven't managed to catch up with all the decorator articles, but:

If we do get the pie syntax (or | or %% or whatever), is it too late
to get '@<keyword> staticmethod' and not just '@staticmethod'?

I've suggested it before, and I think others have too, but it seems to
have gotten lost in all the other discussion.

It's supposed to be a plus with the current pie syntax that the @
suggests something 'new' and non-obvious is going on.  I don't see it.

For one thing, it isn't going to remain new.  When we get something more
radically new, are we going to define it as '@$!!statement' to _really_
make it stand out?

For another, it _isn't_ new.  It's just new syntax for something old.
All that is new is that there is a new type of _syntax_: A new way to
express how statements affect each other; neither indentation nor
program flow.  It's not an _advantage_ of the pie syntax that it does
this, compared with most other proposals.  It's merely _necessary_ that
it does it, since it does not use other visual cues like indentation.

So if we get a pie, I think that's all the pie should mean:  'Abnormal
Syntax Alert'.  That could be a useful thing to have in the future, e.g.
for compiler directives, and it doesn't mix up two completely different
things:  An entirely new kind of Python syntax, and statements that
express normal execution of code.

Then follow it with a keyword which says that this particular abnormal
syntax applies decorators to the following function definition.

Other 'pie-keywords' could be added later at need; there would be less
worry about having used up an unused character.  Like, oh I don't know,
keywords that change the function they occur in so that it returns
something else than its return statement says.  Such a keyword would
_really_ need to stand out.  '@yield', for example:-)  Or a keyword
which 'gunzip's the rest of the source file before reading more of it.

-- 
Hallvard


From oriana.falco at thalesesec.com  Fri Aug 27 11:03:21 2004
From: oriana.falco at thalesesec.com (Oriana)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 08:03:21 -0700
Subject: Regular Expressions
Message-ID: <808f000f.0408270703.27540e26@posting.google.com>

hi!

  I am trying to do some replacements using regular expressions, but
I'm not exactly sure how to do it. I need to replace all ocurrences of

/******************************************         OR
/*

for /**  ....meaning, any / (forward slash) followed by one or more
asterisks needs to be replaced with /**  ....how would I write a pieco
of code to do this??  Please help! Thanks in advance...

Ori


From timrueAT at mindspringDOT.com  Sat Aug 14 20:26:59 2004
From: timrueAT at mindspringDOT.com (threeseas)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 00:26:59 GMT
Subject: autocoding and the new MS book regarding software factories
Message-ID: <n5yTc.22403$9Y6.15819@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>

Because the project is done in python and in support of FOSS

http://msdn.microsoft.com/architecture/overview/softwarefactories/default.aspx?pull=/library/en-us/dnmaj/html/aj3softfac.asp

"According to the Standish Group [Sta94], businesses in the United 
States spend around $250 billion on software development each year on 
approximately 175,000 projects. Only 16 percent of these projects finish 
on schedule and within budget. Another 31 percent are cancelled, mainly 
due to quality problems, for losses of about $81 billion. Another 53 
percent exceed their budgets by an average of 189 percent, for losses of 
about $59 billion. Projects reaching completion deliver an average of 
only 42 percent of the originally planned features."

and text regarding industrialization (engineering)..

Interesting how they use the same figures and refer to the same issue of 
  industrialization as I covered 8 years ago on one of my first web pages.

 From http://threeseas.net/mind/vic-objective.html

"PROBLEMS IMPORTANT TO SOLVE

Attention Getting Points

------ FROM ------
COMDEX SPRING and WINDOWS WORLD 95
Power Panel - "What's Wrong with Software Development"
** In The U.S. Only **

$81 Billion = 31% of software development gets cancelled before complete

$59 Billion = 53% of software development has cost over-runs of 189%

16% success - project success and failure ratio

61% customer requested features and functions make it in

Maintenance and repair is where most of the U.S. dollars are going,
instead of new, better, easier to use software.

[snipped out some of my own observations from being there - see link
*** Especially if you read 
http://www.theserverside.net/talks/library.tss#KeithShort ]

------ AND FROM ------
SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN - Sept. 1994
Article - "Software's Chronic Crisis"

The article covers much the same ground as the above but with a focus 
and flavor of the magazine. The article also goes more into solution 
efforts with software development on large scale projects. But finding 
consistent solutions are still hard to come by.

Mass-produced PC products makes up less than 10% of the $92.8 billion 
U.S. software market.

Mary M. Shaw of Carnegie Mellon University, observes a parallel between 
chemical engineering evolution and software engineering evolution. 
However, this evolution has not made the connection between science and 
commercialization required to establish a consistent experimental 
foundation for professional software engineering.
---------------------

They also refer to several other issues I have as well covered.
Such as levels of abstraction.. http://www.threeseas.net/mind/KNMVIC.html

I've posted about this and related issues before but now MS is talking 
along the same lines and I'm not supprised as I understand their 
longhorn and patent grab intent ... and have publicly stated these 
things if you just search the internet. I don't claim MS is in any way 
original, but we all know they take from others and claim ownership...

http://weblogs.asp.net/jnadal/archive/2003/10/29/34413.aspx
----------
  # re: Codename "MONAD"  10/31/2003 12:34 PM  3seas

Ok, what to many fail to understand is the sum total and what it means, 
that MS is working towards.

The Common Language Infrastructure (CLI #2) is a sum of most all 
programming concepts and datatypes then integrated into a 
non-conflicting package so that most any language can be translated into 
the Common Intermediate Language (CIL) and run on a run time engine. 
This unifies all programming languages. But also another part of .NET is 
that of Inter-Process Communications (IPC) and there is also direction 
towards standardized GUI functionality. Then Add in this Commandline 
Interface (CLI #1)...

(CLI #1) + (GUI) + (IPC) = the three primary UIs which is like paint 
having three primary colors, for which you can create any color in the 
spectrum. Take away one and you greatly limit what you can do... ok..
using these three primary UIs in processing the (CLI #2) it becomes 
possible and probable that an autocoding environment can and will be 
developed.

additionally by adding a voice to text interface to the CLI #1 you can 
achieve the ability of the end user/consumer to ask for a program to be 
created and the system will do it.

by patenting it..... all your base will be owned by MS... do a google 
search in "autocoding" and be sure to set aside any arrogance and 
ignorance you may and probably do have.
---------

The following information represents what is probably the best of what 
is available thru the Web on the subject of autocoding. (via google)

HIRTS DARP Working Group on Autocoding, 18th, 19th April 2000
http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/hise/darp/pdf/autocoding.pdf
(Brings up various issues which will help you focus in on what
"autocoding" is and what some of the issues to solve, are.)

The follow up to the above is:
May 8th thru 10th, 2001 "DARP HIRTS Workshop" paper by Jakob Engblom:
http://www.artes.uu.se/mobility/reports/hirts_report1.0.pdf
(See pages 5-6 section 3.2.5 The Use of Tools in Aerospace)

This link no longer works but.. available on paper
http://www.artes.uu.se/mobility/reports/

In summary, Though autocoding is being used to some extent, it is a
future hope, since in general it has a bug density which is an order of
a magnititude lower than manual code.  Point being is that this is
leading edge stuff, an opportunity for OSS to shine.

To help show why I believe OSS efforts can shine when it comes to such a
project as Autocoding:

QinetiQ - Analysis of the Impact of Open Source Software
http://www.govtalk.gov.uk/interoperability/egif_document.asp?docnum=430
link changed I think to:
http://www.govtalk.gov.uk/documents/QinetiQ_OSS_rep.pdf

and From the Conference on the Public Domain, Nov. 9-11. 2001 at Duke 
Law School "Coase's Penguin, or, Linux and the Nature of the Firm" by 
Yochai Benkler: http://www.law.duke.edu/pd/papers/Coase%27s_Penguin.pdf

Automating what was done manually requires the identification of, and
ability to apply, the manual action set we use, but have the computer do
it. A USPTO Published comment introducing these identified actions and
suggestions of how they may be applied, including autocoding, is here:
http://www.threeseas.net/mind/KNMVIC.html

Now it seems that the core problem not only I but MS is running into is 
resistance from coders...

http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/08/08/1724209&tid=185&tid=187&tid=8
and the page ratings of the MS link (first link in body of this post)
and http://www.theserverside.net/discussions/thread.tss?thread_id=27697

Anyway, since there are those controlling python coders that don't like 
me....  thought I'd post this. And to the GNU group.... Sorry RMS, but 
software just ain't free untill anyone can easily create or cause the 
computer to create it for them... for FREE... And real software 
engineers that believe in the Free Software Foundation, FOSS, GPL, etc..
will understand this...



From jepler at unpythonic.net  Wed Aug  4 08:03:04 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 07:03:04 -0500
Subject: Subclassing file class
In-Reply-To: <C59AEFCA2D33284B8EE3C0A8C8C9004A108453@kiwi>
References: <C59AEFCA2D33284B8EE3C0A8C8C9004A108453@kiwi>
Message-ID: <20040804120304.GA30066@unpythonic.net>

"print>>" uses the bytecode PRINT_ITEM_TO which uses
PyFile_WriteString() which uses PyFile_Check() which returns True for
your "fout", which leads directly to a call to fputs.

Instead, PyFile_WriteString() should probably use PyFile_CheckExact()
(which doesn't exist yet) before taking that branch of the code.

I also notice that the return value of that fputs is not checked in that
function!

For now, you could use containment and delegation instead of
subclassing, just like in Python before new-style classes.

Jeff
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From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug  6 18:35:01 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 18:35:01 -0400
Subject: random from an array
In-Reply-To: <cd96c8ce3f407abab2a3c29b62ce4ecd@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>
References: <cd96c8ce3f407abab2a3c29b62ce4ecd@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>
Message-ID: <2sqdnezun4kImoncRVn-qg@powergate.ca>

Calvin79 wrote:

> I've just started to try python so forgive the ignorance!
> 
> I've been using this, or something like it;
> 
> First = random.choice ('abc')

This works not because choice() takes a string, but because
even though it takes a sequence, a string *is* a sequence
(of bytes).

> What I want to do, however, is take a random pick from something like the
> following;
> 
> First = random.??? ("rna", "rnb", "rnc") - this of course "random.choice"
> doesn't work.

Just use another sequence, either a tuple or a list:

    random.choice(("rna", "rnb", "rnc"))
or
    random.choice(["rna", "rnb", "rnc"])

The latter is preferred for various mostly stylistic reasons...

-Peter


From eldiener at earthlink.net  Mon Aug 16 20:08:18 2004
From: eldiener at earthlink.net (Edward Diener)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 00:08:18 GMT
Subject: No validation routine for an os.path
Message-ID: <S%bUc.24081$nx2.7626@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>

Try as I might I can not find a routine in os.path which validates whether
or not a path is syntactically valid, either as a directory or as a file.
This is surprising since, although I know this is OS dependent, Python has
many other classes and functions which will work properly depending on what
OS they are currently running under. Is there such a path validation routine
in any of the libraries distributed with Python or in any other 3rd party
Python libraries ?




From listserver at tdw.net  Wed Aug 11 09:01:26 2004
From: listserver at tdw.net (Tim Williams)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:01:26 +0100
Subject: loading message thingy
References: <200408110901.i7B911cE012665@mailhub.wolfram.com>
	<001401c47f88$17cf5500$ccbefea9@twilliams>
Message-ID: <006d01c47fa3$4fb6bfb0$ccbefea9@twilliams>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim Williams" <listserver at tdw.net>


> "Robbie" <user at domain.invalid> wrote in message
> news:cfcndl$28em$1 at otis.netspace.net.au...
>
> > Basically all I want to do is continuously write to the same line.
> > So I could have a little rotating text thing showing that the script is
> > working or display data ie, kb downloaded so far...
> >
> > ATM I am just calling a clear screen every pass with a little nap,
nasty.
> >
>
> '\b' is a backspace, so.....
>
> import sys,time
>
> chars = ['|', '\\', '-', '/']
> out = sys.stdout
>
> def raw_print(txt):
>     out.write("\b" + txt)
>     out.flush()
>
> while 1:
>     for x in range(len(chars)):
>         raw_print(chars[x])
>         time.sleep(0.5)

Thinking about it,  '\b' can cancel out the extra space at the end of a
"print char,"  (with the comma on the end)

so, this does the same thing ....

import time

chars = ['|', '\\', '-', '/']

while 1:
    for x in range(len(chars)):
        print "\b\b" + chars[x],
        time.sleep(0.5)



From jeff_news at lindholm.org  Tue Aug 24 14:41:20 2004
From: jeff_news at lindholm.org (Jeff Lindholm)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:41:20 GMT
Subject: line shift?  (baby steps 2)
References: <6daa8765.0408230412.6db365d6@posting.google.com>
	<2oueokFe36qgU2@uni-berlin.de>
	<NhqWc.5860$Y94.3343@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>
	<6daa8765.0408231437.7c37130@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <kZLWc.4449$ZC7.1048@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com>

>> import string
>>
>> currency = {"EUDK":(7.47,"? to DKK"),
>>             "DKEU":(0.13,"DKK to ?"),
>>             "USDK":(5.93, "$ to DKK"),
>>             "DKUS":(0.16, "DKK to $"),
>>             "EUUS":(1.19, "? to $"),
>>             "USEU":(0.84, "$ to ?")}
>>
>> while(1):
>>     currency_choice= raw_input("\nPlease enter conversion type  or 
>> 'Exit':
>> ")
>>     currency_str= str(currency_choice).upper()
>>
>>     if currency_str == "EXIT":
>>         break
>>     if currency.has_key(currency_str):
>>         amount_int= input("Please type the amount you wish to convert: ")
>>         result = amount_int * currency[currency_str][0]
>>         print currency[currency_str][1], " ", amount_int, " = ", result
>>     else:
>>         print("Sorry. At the moment we only support DKK, Euro and 
>> Dollars."
>> + "\n" \
>>         "Type DKEU if you want convert from DKK to ?," + "\n" \
>>         "EUDK if you want to convert from DKK to ?," + "\n" \
>>         "DKUS if you want to convert from DKK to $," + "\n" \
>>         "USDK if you want to convert from $ to DKK," + "\n"
>>         "EUUS if you want to convert from ? to $," + "\n"\
>>         "and USEU if you want to convert from $ to ?")
>
>
> was the following output intended?
>
> "Please enter conversion type  or 'Exit': euus
> Please type the amount you wish to convert: 99
> ? to $   99  =  117.81"
>
> I mean the last line. Or am I missing something?
> Thanx!

Yes the last line was meant to show the conversion type, just a simple 
remider for myself what I converted (in this case EU - designated ? - to US 
dollars - designated $)




From nhodgson at bigpond.net.au  Tue Aug 24 21:13:21 2004
From: nhodgson at bigpond.net.au (Neil Hodgson)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 01:13:21 GMT
Subject: J2 0-2-6 is available
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E52@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
	<mailman.2310.1093386985.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <RIRWc.6401$D7.5685@news-server.bigpond.net.au>

   I'd like to dissent on "using". To me, this code does not read well.

using:
    classmethod
def foo(cls):
    pass

   foo *is* a class method, it is not *using* a class method. In C#, "using"
has too meanings: the first is to import a library and the second is to
acquire a resource which will be automatically released. Both of these are
seem reasonable as some thing (the object of the using clause) is being
used.

   "classmethod" is implemented as a transform that is applied to foo but
implementation is the wrong thing to emphasise here: it is the intention
that should be emphasised. The intention here is for foo to be a class
method.

   Neil




From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug 20 07:07:18 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 07:07:18 -0400
Subject: How to change a file's date/timestamp?
In-Reply-To: <he1bi0d5hdfra6tnu8mbgskdeqaf52eur5@4ax.com>
References: <he1bi0d5hdfra6tnu8mbgskdeqaf52eur5@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <84Gdneea3r9xR7jcRVn-tw@powergate.ca>

pythos wrote:

> How do you change a file's last-modified date and timestamp in Python?

utime(...)
     utime(path, (atime, utime))
     utime(path, None)

     Set the access and modified time of the file to the given values.
     If the second form is used, set the access and modified times to the
     current time.


This and many other functions are in the 'os' standard module, one
of the few very very widely used and useful modules... you should
read the online docs for it, along with "sys", and "time" at least,
before doing any more coding. ;-)

-Peter


From adurdin at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 08:08:28 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 22:08:28 +1000
Subject: Integers have docstring for int()
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a04081105087366db98@mail.gmail.com>

I accidentally discovered that all the basic types in Python have
docstrings that describe the functions to create them. For integers,
you get:

>>> (1).__doc__
'int(x[, base]) -> integer\n\nConvert a string or number to an integer, if possi
ble.  A floating point\nargument will be truncated towards zero (this does not i
nclude a string\nrepresentation of a floating point number!)  When converting a
string, use\nthe optional base.  It is an error to supply a base when converting
 a\nnon-string. If the argument is outside the integer range a long object\nwill
 be returned instead.'

Similarly, (1.0).__doc__ gives the docstring for float(), "".__doc__
gives it for str(), [].__doc__ gives it for list(), and {}.__doc__
gives it for dict().

This seems a little unexpected to me; is there any particular reason
for this behaviour?


From nomail at nospam.no  Sat Aug  7 14:50:59 2004
From: nomail at nospam.no (Dominic)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 20:50:59 +0200
Subject: @decorators - module ?
In-Reply-To: <d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa@posting.google.com>
References: <d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cf388t$7h9$1@news.uni-kl.de>

I do not know much about decorators yet,
but how about a decorator module for
default stuff e.g. synchronized etc.?
Does this make sense?

Ciao,
  Dominic


From martin at v.loewis.de  Mon Aug  2 10:14:04 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 16:14:04 +0200
Subject: Sets Module Bug?
In-Reply-To: <cel1dm$o7o$1@scrotar.nss.udel.edu>
References: <cel1dm$o7o$1@scrotar.nss.udel.edu>
Message-ID: <410e4c29$0$165$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

>  >>> Set((1,2,3))
[...]
> How can a Set using a tuple or list be ok, but not a tuple of lists?

I think you are confused by the syntax above. This expression constructs
a Set object, and fills it with the members of the tuple. In no way does
the Set "use" the tuple - once the Set is created, the tuple goes away.

So you should have asked "How can a Set containing numbers be ok, but
not a Set containing lists?", to which the other two posters gave the
right answer.

Regards,
Martin


From nospam at nowhere.hu  Mon Aug  9 07:54:16 2004
From: nospam at nowhere.hu (Miklós)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 13:54:16 +0200
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu><cf3b56$gt6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>	<du7smayidxy.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>	<Xns953F7763A998cpl19ghumspamgourmet@195.20.224.116>	<cf4ub3$msb$1@namru.matavnet.hu><Xns953F8910730B8cpl19ghumspamgourmet@195.20.224.116>
	<mailman.1381.1092046190.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cf7olc$q6q$1@namru.matavnet.hu>


"Christian Tismer" <tismer at stackless.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1381.1092046190.5135.python-list at python.org...

> Ooh, this is truely too much fear. Decorators are about
> modification of how code is understood, but not modification.
> [ If it were so, then I'd be probably much more interested :-) ]

[..snip..]
>
> Now, with the mentioned extra line, the function object is
> modified in a way that it understands that it is an ordinary
> function, and it works in both cases:
>
[..snip..]
> What you have see is, that staticmethod has to be called *after*
> the function is defined. The modified function is assigned to
> the class as a post process.
[..snip..]
> to see whther the function is modified somehow.
[..snip..]
> This is the basic idea what a decorator does:
> Make modifiers like classmethod into a prefix
> of a function.

Great, so it's still about code modification.
With Python decorators, a method/function can be modified virtually in any
way, outside its declaration.
Sure you could override things before, too, but now this is a request for
code abuse.

Best,
  Mikl?s

> --
> Christian Tismer             :^)   <mailto:tismer at stackless.com>
> Mission Impossible 5oftware  :     Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
> Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a     :    *Starship* http://starship.python.net/
> 14109 Berlin                 :     PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/
> work +49 30 89 09 53 34  home +49 30 802 86 56  mobile +49 173 24 18 776
> PGP 0x57F3BF04       9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619  305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04
>       whom do you want to sponsor today?   http://www.stackless.com/
>




From duncan.booth at invalid.invalid  Wed Aug 11 05:08:58 2004
From: duncan.booth at invalid.invalid (Duncan Booth)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 09:08:58 GMT
Subject: how to dispatch objects depending on their class
References: <4118dd4a$1@maser.urz.unibas.ch>
	<rI6dnT82JZZXwoTcRVn-sA@wideopenwest.com>
	<4119d33c$1@maser.urz.unibas.ch>
Message-ID: <Xns9542673C336D0duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>

Curzio Basso <curzio.basso at unibas.ch> wrote in 
news:4119d33c$1 at maser.urz.unibas.ch:

> Is it correct that in the visitor pattern the dispatching would be 
> delegated to the classes, like with:
> 
<snip>

> Is this correct?
> 
Roughly yes, but with a dynamic language like Python you can easily extract 
the implementation out into a mixin class rather than repeating what is 
essentially the same code everywhere. e.g.

>>> class VisitorMixin:
	def accept(self, visitor):
		getattr(visitor, 'visit_' + self.__class__.__name__)(self)

		
>>> class A(object, VisitorMixin): pass

>>> class B(A): pass

>>> class Visitor:
	def visit_A(self, object):
		print "Visiting an A", object
	def visit_B(self, object):
		print "Visiting a B", object

		
>>> a = A()
>>> b = B()
>>> v = Visitor()
>>> a.accept(v)
Visiting an A <__main__.A object at 0x00A8BF10>
>>> b.accept(v)
Visiting a B <__main__.B object at 0x00A8B530>
>>> 

In practice the accept function could be more complicated, e.g. visiting 
child objects or handling errors more intelligently.


From insert at spam.here  Tue Aug 17 22:21:45 2004
From: insert at spam.here (Doug Holton)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:21:45 -0500
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
In-Reply-To: <Michael.J.Fromberger-BA602B.20560217082004@localhost>
References: <20040817181725194-0400@braeburn.themorgue.org>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-BA602B.20560217082004@localhost>
Message-ID: <J5udnbZABLelIL_cRVn-oA@comcast.com>

Michael J. Fromberger wrote:
> In article <20040817181725194-0400 at braeburn.themorgue.org>,
>  Kevin Smith <Kevin.Smith at sas.com> wrote:
> 
>>Bear with me, but I'd like to propose one more syntax that is simple, 
>>easy for newbies to understand,  and nowhere near as powerful as the 
>>current PEP's syntax.  However, it doesn't add incoherent, arbitrary 
>>syntax either.
>>
>>def classmethod foo(x, y, z):
>>    pass
>>
>>That's it.  One "decorator" that is a callable object that takes a 
>>method as it's only argument.  No expressions, lists, tuples, etc.  Just 
>>one callable object.  Ok, if you absolutely must have more than one.
>>
>>def classmethod synchronized foo(x, y, z):
>>    pass
>>
>>Once again, no expressions.  I know that this isn't going to solve 
>>everyone's type-checking, metadata, and function attribute problems, but 
>>let's face it, using this PEP for all of those things just creates ugly 
>>syntax.  There must be more Pythonic ways to do those things in their 
>>own PEPs.
> 
> 
> Kevin,
> 
> +1 for this idea.

I posted the same thing to python-dev (although it took a week for the 
post to appear) and some guy said -infinity or something smart like that.
I think it is simpler to use keywords for classmethod and staticmethod 
at least.  Those are builtin features of python, just like they are 
builtins for java (which has keywords for its builtins like static, 
abstract, interface, etc.).
I propose this *in addition* to whatever decorator syntax we add.  We 
shouldn't consider staticmethod and classmethod as decorators.


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Wed Aug 18 19:39:48 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 23:39:48 GMT
Subject: I would really like the code for a dome in vpython
References: <8f17f4bc.0408181349.46c34b2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <clp7i09uubansi27ha70eblegbdhse18g3@4ax.com>

On 18 Aug 2004 14:49:54 -0700, alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali) wrote:

>Please anyone I would really like the code for makinga dome in
>vpython. I would like to be able to adjust he color, axis, radius, and
>pos.


You will lucky to find something readymade for VPython.

This looks like it would be helpful for finding dome corrdinates,
which you can then use to plug-in to VPython:

http://www.applied-synergetics.com/ashp/html/domes.html

And Kirby is probably an excellent source of information in the area
of the intersection of domes/Python/VPython. He knows a good deal
about each of these things.

I don't know whether he monitors this list.  You might try posting to
edu-sig at python.org which I know he monitors, to see if he has
something to suggest.

I might have some other suggestions if a understood what you were
trying to accomplish, and why.


Art


From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 26 01:16:10 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 01:16:10 -0400
Subject: urllib hangs
In-Reply-To: <a6fdfd6b.0408241006.6b5c4d65@posting.google.com>
References: <a6fdfd6b.0408230902.2afc0e08@posting.google.com>
	<cgdaoh$1gn$01$1@news.t-online.com>
	<a6fdfd6b.0408231537.c2c5af2@posting.google.com>
	<tZOdnSAokOE9VbfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<a6fdfd6b.0408241006.6b5c4d65@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <jt6dnYJ8R-eH77DcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>

Jay Donnell wrote:
> I don't understand the inner workings of the socket or timeoutsocket
> modules. On it's face it doesn't make sense that importing
> timeoutsocket would magically override the behaviour of socket without
> me doing anything else to the socket module. This appears to be what
> happens, but it certainly isn't clear to someone that doesn't know how
> it works. Here is what timeoutsocket says, "After this module
> has been imported, all socket creation goes through this shim. ".
> After reading this I was unsure if I needed to install
> timeoutsocket.py into the base python distro because, again, it seems
> odd that simply dropping timeoutsocket.py into my cwd and importing it
> will override the behaviour of the socket module. This didn't say
> "exactly what I need to do". 

Yes it does.  It may seem odd, but it does in fact say something
that is exactly what you should do.

> It assumed a few things that seemed odd
> to me. How does timeoutsocket.py " insert a shim into the socket
> module."? What does that mean??? It wasn't clear! In the time it took
> you and the other guy to criticize me you could have simply said,
> "yeah, just drop it into your cwd and import it".

Just because you disbelieved the words doesn't mean they aren't
clear.  Maybe it should say "do this... it works, really!".  Would
that have helped?

Anyway, in the time it took us all to have this discussion, you
could really easily have just tried it and seen for yourself
that it did work.  Python has a nice interactive interpreter
prompt just for such things, and it's good to get in the habit
of using it.

> P.S. - I really do appreciate the help that Benjamin gave.

And yet he says he didn't know how it worked either, but you
believed him and not the comments in the code itself.  I can
see that despite anything any of us say about the inadequacy
of the approach you took you are right and we're wrong.  Carry
on...

-Peter


From ville at spammers.com  Mon Aug 30 09:36:52 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 16:36:52 +0300
Subject: Announcing PyCs, a new Python-like language on .Net
References: <mailman.2572.1093751093.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<99dce321.0408292132.36ef381e@posting.google.com>
	<l7FYc.50661$4o.11361@fed1read01>
Message-ID: <du73c24oih7.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Steve" == Steve Holden <sholden at holdenweb.com> writes:

    >> than comp.lang.python. Sorry for the flame, but you really need it.
    >> 

    Steve> It could have been a much worse flame and still
    Steve> justified. Mark should gratefully take your advice.

I dunno - Mark's general tone has been rather constructive, which is
not really flameworthy. It might be more useful if he, say, integrated
static typing from Boo to IronPython, but if someone is
enthusiastically (gotta admire Mark's energy) hacking on something
(anything) related to *Python codebase it can still be of interest to
people here - and it can also improve the codebase in the process.

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From chrish at debian.org  Mon Aug 16 15:59:44 2004
From: chrish at debian.org (Christian Hudon)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:59:44 -0400
Subject: __getattr__-like method for current module.
Message-ID: <41211230.4080106@debian.org>

Hi,

I'd like to be able to trap lookups of attributes of the current module. 
Exactly like what __getattr__ does, but for modules. As an exmaple, I'd 
like to be able to do:

File foo.py

enable_magic()

def foo():
     undefined_function(1, 2)

and then when I call foo.foo from somewhere else, the lookup of the 
undefined undefined_function symbol is trapped and I can (say) 
dynamically define and return a function.

I know about the trick of defining a class instance that has a 
__getattr__ that does what you want and overwriting the entry for the 
module in sys.modules, but that only works when accessing that module 
from the outside. So in the example, my undefined_function call would 
have to be prefixed by the name of the magic module.

I tried building a subclass of module and installing that before all the 
def and class in the module are executed. I tried injecting a 
__getattr__ method in the globals dict of the module. I tried a bunch of 
other things that I forgot... None of these work (or at least I couldn't 
make them work). Among other things, it seems that the module part of 
Python is quite a bit less dynamic than the rest of the language. 
(Although I'd be happy to be proved wrong.)

Any way of doing what I want to do?

   Christian



From http  Fri Aug  6 14:48:40 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 06 Aug 2004 11:48:40 -0700
Subject: generating uuids / guids
References: <2nhnrfF13jq0U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <7x8ycs9k6v.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Jon Perez <jbperez808 at wahoo.com> writes:
> Is there a Python function that works on all platforms (not just Win32)
> to generate such in the DCE / Microsoft format?
> 
> If not present, this looks like it would be a very Pythonic addition
> to the standard library.

Why do you say that adding Windows GUID generation to non-Windows
platforms would be Pythonic?  Yeesh.


From zanesdad at bellsouth.net  Thu Aug 26 14:42:10 2004
From: zanesdad at bellsouth.net (Jeremy Jones)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:42:10 -0400
Subject: Mysql in Python?
In-Reply-To: <2p6nnpFhoue1U1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <2p6m32Fh7o9oU1@uni-berlin.de>	<mailman.2460.1093543565.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2p6nnpFhoue1U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <412E2F02.2050007@bellsouth.net>

Stefan Stolz wrote:

>Jeremy Jones wrote:
>
>  
>
>>I'm not sure, but I believe that MySQLdb is included in this project:
>>
>>http://sourceforge.net/projects/mysql-python
>>
>>(which appears to have been updated only a couple of months back, so
>>that's good news).
>>    
>>
>Thank you, but i don`t understand why there is nothing implemented in
>Python?
>
>I was a little konfused after reading the doku of mysql-python, because
>there the author says its better to use MySQLdb ;-) ?!?!
>  
>
So, are you wanting a pure Python module to connect to MySQL?  I'm not 
sure there are any that exist.

Jeremy


From cemerick at snowtide.com  Sun Aug 15 21:54:01 2004
From: cemerick at snowtide.com (Chas Emerick)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:54:01 -0400
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <20040815185534.EFEDB1E400C@bag.python.org>
References: <20040815185534.EFEDB1E400C@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <25000874-EF27-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>


On Aug 15, 2004, at 2:55 PM, Bengt Richter wrote:

>> Define fragile.  If you mean, easy to break, I don't see it.  There
>> would be only one way to define an instance method: name its first
>> parameter 'self'.  There would be only one way to define a class 
>> method:
>> name its first parameter 'klass' or 'cls' (or some other synoynm that 
>> we
>> can all vote on).  All other methods would be static methods.
>>
>> How is that fragile?
>>
> In a narrow context such as distinguishing between methods, 
> classmethods,
> and staticmethods, ISTM not so fragile. OTOH, generalize the concept 
> too much
> and you get 'hungarian' naming rules as a way of controlling 
> processing.
> Perhaps that is what Chas and Istvan were worrying about.

Ach, that'll teach me to read all the digests in my mailbox before 
mailing to the list :-)  Yes, that's one of the aspects of my worries 
in connection with this proposal.

I wouldn't use 'fragile' to describe the nature of the proposal.  
'Sneaky' is a better one, in that it would be far, far too easy for 
someone to inadvertently make a classmethod without intending to.  The 
decorator approaches to changing a method's type as well as the 
old/current approach of func=staticmethod(func) are both superior in 
this respect, in that they require a distinct intention by the code's 
author.

Another way of looking at this is that the use of an explicit self 
argument was chosen, one can surmise, as a way of making it completely 
clear what is going on in the context of a member function (i.e. better 
to write self.attr=x than just attr=x...I think this is mentioned in 
the python FAQ).  It would run completely counter to that decision to 
now go back and start hanging implicit semantics off of arguments that 
were originally specified for clarity's sake.

- Chas Emerick



From fumanchu at amor.org  Mon Aug 16 02:17:56 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 23:17:56 -0700
Subject: ADOdbapi converting all data to strings
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022DFA@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

max wrote:
> I am trying to access a foxpro database, using odbc all is well except
> that dates prior to 1970 are not returned as valid usable data, so
> would like to use ADO. When I select data containing numbers (long or
> float) they are converted and returned as unicode strings. Dates are
> returned as datetime.date which is great. Is there any way to change
> this behavior other than to explicitly change back all fields using
> cursor.description information.

I *think* you're saying that you have a COM date (which is similar to a
float), and want a datetime.date.


import datetime
# 12/30/1899, the zero-Date for ADO = 693594
zeroDate = datetime.date(1899, 12, 30).toordinal()

def coerce_datetime(value):
    return datetime.date.fromordinal(int(float(value)) + zeroDate)


COM times are more complicated. Inquire further if you need to handle
them.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumamchu at amor.org


From hawk at slytherin.ds.psu.edu  Fri Aug 27 10:45:20 2004
From: hawk at slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:45:20 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<776e0325.0408260433.449660c8@posting.google.com>
	<412dfc1c$0$65599$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <cgnhe0$o8o$3@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>

In article <412dfc1c$0$65599$a1866201 at newsreader.visi.com>,
Grant Edwards  <grante at visi.com> wrote:
>On 2004-08-26, Sara <genericax at hotmail.com> wrote:

>> Hey this ain't no CULT! Our creedo is simply:

>>    "Larry said it, I believe it, THAT settles it!"

>> If you don't believe it just look at the reaction if any questions any
>> element of Perl design!

>Over here in c.l.python, it's more like

>   "Guido said it, that settles it, but we're going to discuss
>    it endlessly and and vote on it using six or seven
>    different voting algorithms anyway.  Then we'll argue about
>    the voting algorithms."

Now I understand what happenend in the 2000 election:  Al Gore, after
inventing the internet, became a python programmer :)

hawk
-- 
Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics    /"\   ASCII ribbon campaign
dochawk at psu.edu  111 Hiller (814) 375-4846      \ /   against HTML mail
These opinions will not be those of              X    and postings. 
Penn State until it pays my retainer.           / \   


From stefan at eischet.com  Sat Aug  7 07:14:31 2004
From: stefan at eischet.com (Stefan Eischet)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 13:14:31 +0200
Subject: Killing children
In-Reply-To: <87d624vxt2.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
References: <87smb0w4ln.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
	<mailman.1297.1091814690.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<87d624vxt2.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
Message-ID: <F453B4FE-E862-11D8-A1F7-000A95857E5C@eischet.com>


On 06.08.2004, at 22:03, Laura Conrad wrote:

>>>>>> "Stefan" == Stefan Eischet <stefan at eischet.com> writes:
>
>     Stefan> I sometimes use os.system with pskill from
>     Stefan> http://www.sysinternals.com/ntw2k/freeware/pskill.shtml -
>     Stefan> this should do what you want.
>
> I don't see that it really saves me much over using the cygwin kill
> command.

Right. The program I use this in doesn't run on cygwin but on "normal" 
win32, so I have no kill command there.

Another poster mentioned the possible difference between handles and 
pids, which I didn't notice in my case. I only feed the number returned 
from the spawn call into pskill, which just does the right thing.

   Stefan

// stefan at eischet.com //



From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz  Fri Aug 27 00:22:41 2004
From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:22:41 +1200
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2457.1093542207.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2457.1093542207.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2p7r8hFhfg99U1@uni-berlin.de>

Robert Brewer wrote:
> Isn't *anyone* going to vote against? Or at least formally abstain?
> _Somebody_ out there must disagree strongly with this.

Against.

-- 
Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept,
University of Canterbury,	
Christchurch, New Zealand
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg



From richie at entrian.com  Fri Aug 20 08:54:18 2004
From: richie at entrian.com (Richie Hindle)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:54:18 +0100
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2tsbi0ticv0fqq1df7u4m4ltme1ijdqf1k@4ax.com>


> each poster gets 3 votes among the lettered choices on the Wiki page above.

H I J2

Kudos to Paul for arranging this.  I hope it works (for some value of
'works' that we can vote on later 8-)

-- 
Richie Hindle
richie at entrian.com



From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Sat Aug 21 20:51:12 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 20:51:12 -0400
Subject: Getting benifits of database transactions in an OO way?
Message-ID: <2oq8pmFdd2nfU1@uni-berlin.de>

I'm coding an application which makes extensive use of a PostgreSQL 
database. To make code clearer, I'm wrapping various row types in 
objects. Sample code would look something like this:

import people
fred = people.find_by_name('Fred Flintstone')
barney = people.find_by_name('Barney Rubble')
fred.money -= 10
barney.money += 10
fred.save_data()
barney.save_data()

Right now, the Person.save_data method also commits the current database 
transaction. But that seems to remove the benifit of having a database 
with transactions: If something dies between the call to 
fred.save_data() and barney.save_data(), Fred's $10 will end up in a 
black hole somewhere.

Is the only option making Person.save_data not commit the transaction, 
and require calling code do so on its own? I don't really like the idea, 
since it removes the abstraction which allows the Person class to save 
data anywhere it chooses (not just in a database).


From nothanks at nothere.com  Wed Aug 25 18:28:06 2004
From: nothanks at nothere.com (Emiliano Molina)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:28:06 GMT
Subject: Subclassing built-in types
In-Reply-To: <Z5XWc.6680$D7.6005@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
References: <Z5XWc.6680$D7.6005@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <Wn8Xc.7338$D7.196@news-server.bigpond.net.au>

Emiliano Molina wrote:
--- some stuff I was confused about ---
> Where can I find that documentation?  I've looked through the manual but 
> can't find anything relevant.  Google searches bring up articles that 
> talk about code as described in my first example but I can't find 
> anything like the second.

I received no answers to my post (not complaining) and I am curious as 
to wether it was a silly question or if there was no answer because what 
I wanted to know is not documented.

Thanks for your replies (if there are going to be any!)


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Sun Aug 29 11:16:59 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:16:59 +0200
Subject: possible python bug here
In-Reply-To: <UlmYc.210493$5D1.9792439@news4.tin.it>
References: <UlmYc.210493$5D1.9792439@news4.tin.it>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408291716280.2571-100000@kleigh.nl>

manuel schreef:

> In the sample below, the foo function modify the b list,
> but I think it should modify only c, not b! It work
> correctly if if b is one dimension list instead two.
>
> def foo(aList):
>      print "use foo..."
>      aList[2][0] += .35
>      aList[2][1] += .35
>      aList[2][2] += .35
>
> p = [2.5,2.5,2.5]
> b = [p,p,p,p]
>
> c=b[:] #c is a totally new list cloned from b, it's not an alias!

No it isn't. You didn't make a deep copy.



-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html

The Halloween Documents: http://www.opensource.org/halloween/



From jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl  Fri Aug 27 16:12:51 2004
From: jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl (Jarek Zgoda)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:12:51 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Class Friends
References: <20040827081556.657c3fac.a@c.d>
	<mailman.2542.1093632648.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgo4k2$g7r$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>

Shalabh Chaturvedi <shalabh at cafepy.com> pisze:

>> Is it possible to make classes friends in Python?
> 
> Not just possible - all Python classes are always friends with each 
> other (something that rubs off Python programmers, I suppose :)

That's why other call us "friendly people".

-- 
Jarek Zgoda
http://jpa.berlios.de/


From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Aug  4 03:07:12 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 09:07:12 +0200
Subject: Mucking with the calling scripts namespace (For a good reason,
	honest!)
References: <e08cd05f.0408020727.15ce4356@posting.google.com>
	<rJudnRiTPvRB8JPcRVn-gw@comcast.com>
	<e08cd05f.0408031120.4eb60a7b@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408031540350.10945-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <ceq1v0$k7o$04$2@news.t-online.com>

Christopher T King wrote:

> setattr().  Something as simple as the following would suffice:
> 
>  class objifier(object):
>       def __init__(self,d):
>           self.__dict__ = d
> 
>  __main__ = objifier(globals())

Or something even simpler:

import __main__
 
> Then you do stuff like:
> 
>>>> __main__.b = 6
>>>> b
> 6
>>>> b = 20
>>>> __main__.b
> 20
>>>> getattr(__main__,"b")
> 20
>>>> setattr(__main__,"b",6)
>>>> b
> 6

Peter



From td.brown at verizon.net  Wed Aug 18 08:56:04 2004
From: td.brown at verizon.net (Tom Brown)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 05:56:04 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <200408180556.04044.td.brown@verizon.net>

I am 35.

-Tom

On Wednesday 18 August 2004 05:20, Lucas Raab wrote:
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....



From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Tue Aug  3 05:29:34 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 03 Aug 2004 11:29:34 +0200
Subject: automatic delegation
Message-ID: <HBF.20040803b8y6@bombur.uio.no>

Is it possible to write a metaclass or something so that
with a class definition not much larger than this:

   class foo:
      def __init__(self, val): self.val = val

operations on a foo instance f will be applied to f.val?
E.g. str(f) -> f.__str__() -> f.val.__str__().

-- 
Hallvard


From rnd at onego.ru  Fri Aug 13 17:03:05 2004
From: rnd at onego.ru (Roman Suzi)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 01:03:05 +0400 (MSD)
Subject: Best programming language
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408140101300.31795@rnd.onego.ru>


;-)

Just type into google
"best programming language"
and press (I am lucky)


Sincerely yours, Roman Suzi
-- 
rnd at onego.ru =\= My AI powered by GNU/Linux RedHat 7.3


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Sun Aug 22 17:05:29 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 23:05:29 +0200
Subject: python doesn't like my numbers
In-Reply-To: <2osfspFdnjbcU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <2osfspFdnjbcU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408222304590.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>

paul k schreef:

> hi,
>
> is there any way to convince python not to take my (phone)numbers
> starting with zero as octals?
>
>  >>> int(088)
>    File "<stdin>", line 1
>      int(088)
>            ^
> SyntaxError: invalid token


What is the integer value of a phone number?


-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Thu Aug  5 22:39:19 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 22:39:19 -0400
Subject: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was Decorator syntax)
Message-ID: <6LWdnZCpvI7Ico_cRVn-hw@giganews.com>

Paul McGuire wrote:

 > Please reconsider the "def f() [classmethod]:" construct.  Instead of
 > invoking a special punctuation character, it uses context and placement,
 > with familiar old []'s, to infuse the declaration of a function with special
 > characteristics.  If this causes def lines to run longer than one line,
 > perhaps the same rule that allows an unmatched "(" to carry over multiple
 > lines without requiring "\" continuation markers could be used for unmatched
 > "["s, as in:
 >
 > def f() [ staticmethod,
 >     synchronized,
 >     alphabetized,
 >     supersized,
 >     returns('d') ]:

Well said!

Reading the posts here and in the python-dev I've counted
the following votes for it (I'm sure that there were a lot
more but it is awfully hard to keep up with the posts
on the topic).

Voting for the "list-after-def" syntax as shown above:

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com>
AdSR <artur_spruce at yahoo.com>
Paul McGuire <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com>m
Phillip J. Eby pje at telecommunity.com
C. Barnes <connellybarnes at yahoo.com>
Aahz aahz at pythoncraft.com
Skip Montanaro skip at pobox.com
Bill Janssen janssen at parc.com
Istvan Albert ialbert at mailblocks.com

I have the feeling that this always was and still is
the favorite.

Ladies and Gents, start your engines and rally around
this syntax (if you prefer it of course) so that there
is evidence that it should be taken as a serious candidate.

Istvan.



From chris.cavalaria at free.fr  Wed Aug 11 19:34:57 2004
From: chris.cavalaria at free.fr (Christophe Cavalaria)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 01:34:57 +0200
Subject: Rather than decorators, how about sections?
References: <cfdegs$5oo$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<1C74C038-EBB6-11D8-8889-000A95857E5C@eischet.com>
	<mailman.1516.1092244260.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<411a6b9d$0$13688$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
	<mailman.1530.1092256253.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <411aad21$0$29662$636a15ce@news.free.fr>

Stefan Eischet wrote:

> Hi.
> 
> On 11.08.2004, at 20:55, Christophe Cavalaria wrote:
> 
>> Paul Morrow wrote:
>>
>>>> class Foo(object):
>>>>     def spam(Foo):
>>>>         print "Class Method"
>>
>> What is that ? It's ugly, it's a name alias and it'll be incredibly
>> confusing when classmethods are inherited, which is exactly the most
>> common
>> use case for classmethods.
> 
> Right, I don't even like it myself, but I still like it better than the
> pie for daily work.
> How about using "class" as a first parameter? Even uglier, I fear.

How about cls ?

> You cut the good part of my post, I think ;-)
> 
>>> I like it!  It's simple, clear, ... Why isn't this the hands-down best
>>> solution? Why do we want to be more verbose than necessary?
>>
>> It isn't a solution. It only "resolves" the problem for staticmethod
>> and
>> classmethod which are only a very small part of what we do/want to do
>> with
>> decorators.
> 
> And IMHO this is a part you should keep your ugly pies out of, because
> they're suggesting that something special is going on, though it's just
> a static method you're defining.
>
> I was only referring to static methods and class methods, and since I
> don't see no use in decorators for my daily work (which does NOT mean
> they won't help many people!), I won't argue about other uses.
> 
> <putting on bulletproof vest>
> If you really think it's necessary to have special syntax for caching
> return values, for checking parameter types etc, you're welcome, even
> if I personally doubt the usefullness of that stuff - you can still
> cache results *in your method*, for example. Or will we decorate our
> methods so much that they all resolve to a single "pass" instruction in
> the body? Some pie decorator examples look like the function body,
> stacked on top of the def line. *That* is ugly. ;-)
> </>
> 
> For common stuff like static methods, I do still think decorators are
> overkill and the wrong way to go.

It's true that decorators are a somewhat weird mean to define classmethods
and staticmethods. But like I said, it's not the only use case for
decorators. You can't just say : Here's a new syntax for decorators. Oh, by
the way, it only works for staticmethod and classmethod but who uses the
other decorators anyway ?

>> - It'll break all existing classmethods
> 
> I didn't say "get rid of the old way of doing def m(x);
> m=classmethod(m);", so I don't think it would break any existing
> classmethod. When @decorators are in 2.4, will classmethod() and
> staticmethod() be removed at the same time? That would also break each
> and every legacy classmethod, wouldn't it?

No since @decorate is only a shortcut for the old syntax which was deemed
unclear and at the wrong position :)

Anyway, I don't think it's possible to implement that in the grammar, and
even if it's possible, it'll be really tricky to handle both the old and
the new syntax for classmethods at the same time. There will be some
serious compiler magic going on then.

>> - It'll break code that binds arbitrary functions as a member
>> function. You
>> can't do things like that anymore :
>>
>>>>> def f(s):
>>>>>     print "Hi, I'm function f"
>>>>> class Klass:
>>>>>     doIt = f
>>>>> Klass().doIt()
> 
> Okay, this might break, depending on how all this gets implemented. I
> wasn't even aware that this worked, perhaps because I'm usually
> restricting myself to a *very* obvious subset of Python. (My general
> rule is: I might be hit by a bus tomorrow, so a poor Java programmer
> might need to learn to read my code very quickly. I try to never write
> stuff that breaks this rule.)



> How would you solve this problem with decorators, btw?
> class Klass:
>      @stuff
>      doIt = f
> ?

Decorators don't solve that problem. I was just pointing at a current use
case that would probably break with that new proposal for classmethods.

> If there was a rule that assigned functions in the class body (doIt=f)
> default to normal methods whatever their first arg is called, would
> that be okay? After all, that is how it works right now.

And there's even better :

class Klass:
    pass
Klass.doIt = f

That one works too :)

>    Stefan
> 
> // stefan at eischet.com //



From eldiener at earthlink.net  Wed Aug 11 22:07:31 2004
From: eldiener at earthlink.net (Edward Diener)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 02:07:31 GMT
Subject: Static method object not callable
References: <CceSc.10654$nx2.3040@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<mailman.1476.1092189482.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<bGfSc.10747$nx2.363@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<cfc8fo$unk$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
Message-ID: <DhASc.21992$Jp6.3651@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>

Bengt Richter wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 02:40:07 GMT, "Edward Diener"
> <eldiener at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Paul Morrow wrote:
>>> Edward Diener wrote:
>>>> This simple code example gives me the message, "TypeError:
>>>> 'staticmethod' object is not callable".
>>>>
>>>> class X(object):
>>>>   def Y(x):
>>>>     print x
>>>>   Y = staticmethod(Y)
>>>>   ad = { 1 : Y }
>>>>   def Z(self):
>>>>     self.ad[1](3)
>>>> x = X()
>>>> x.Z()
>>>> print "Done."
>>>>
>>>> I know there must be a way to have a class attribute reference a
>>>> static method, and then call that static method through the
>>>> reference, so if anyone can correct this it would be appreciated.
> By 'reference' are you referring to the Y in ad?
>>>>
Yes. I understand now why it won't work but I think this is a limitation of
Python. Evidently, if I set up my class attribute 'ad' to be "ad = { 1 :
X.Y }", then calling static method X.Y through "self.ad[1](3)" would work.
But Python does not allow me to say 'X.Y' from within a class attribute of X
because X has not been fully defined as a class at that time. As one person
answered, I can say "X.ad = { 1 : X.Y }" after the definition of class X and
that works fine. But that is very kludgy to me, forcing me to wait until the
definition of X is finished in order to create my ad class attribute.

I thank you very much for the explanation of _get_ and how static methods
work in Python. It still feels unnatural not to be able to reference a class
attribute of a class in another class attribute of the same class from
within the class definition.




From lbates at swamisoft.com  Wed Aug 25 13:29:28 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:29:28 -0500
Subject: Capturing exceptions?
References: <pan.2004.08.25.17.12.17.521438@yahoo.com.au>
Message-ID: <t9mdnbLzkt7rUbHcRVn-gw@comcast.com>

You need to set up an exception hook function, register
it with Python and have it write out the traceback
information to your file.

def excepthook(type, value, tb):
    #
    # This function allows the user to redefine what happens if the program
    # aborts due to an uncaught exception.
    #
    import traceback
    #
    # Get traceback lines and append the current session log
    #
    tblines=traceback.format_exception(type, value, tb)
    #
    # Insert code to write to file here
    #
    f=open('traceback.log', 'a')
    f.writelines(tblines)
    f.close()
    sys.exit(0)

Then in main program

    #
    # Set the sys.excepthook so I can clean up properly if main program
aborts
    #
    sys.excepthook=excepthook




"Dfenestr8" <chrisdewinN0SPAM at yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.08.25.17.12.17.521438 at yahoo.com.au...
> Hi.
>
> What's the easiest way to capture the traceback from an exception, and
> write it to a file? Ideally, I'd like to be able to do something like:
>
> >try:
> > main()
> >except:
> > write the traceback to a file




From fumanchu at amor.org  Mon Aug 23 23:02:08 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:02:08 -0700
Subject: newbie: confused with example in Learning Python 2nd
	Edition:cananyone give a hint
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E4C@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

D'oh! That'll teach me to read too quickly. <:)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: python-list-bounces+fumanchu=amor.org at python.org 
> [mailto:python-list-bounces+fumanchu=amor.org at python.org] On 
> Behalf Of Paul Rubin
> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 6:58 PM
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Re: newbie: confused with example in Learning Python 
> 2nd Edition:cananyone give a hint
> 
> 
> "Robert Brewer" <fumanchu at amor.org> writes:
> > > So: why defitions of self.push and self.pop are defined as
> > > 'data.append' rather than '_data.append', etc.
> 
> It's an error.  It should say _data.append.
> 
> > Hint: Python doesn't have variables like other languages 
> do. The line:
> > 
> >     self._data = list(data)
> > 
> > does not make a copy of "data". Instead, it binds a new name
> > (self._data) to the same object which the name "data" refers to.
> 
> The list function does make a copy.
> 
>     Python 2.3.4 (#1, Jul 24 2004, 19:45:58)
>     [GCC 3.2.2 20030222 (Red Hat Linux 3.2.2-5)] on linux2
>     Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more 
> information.
>     >>> j=[9,8]
>     >>> a=list(j)
>     >>> a is j
>     False
>     >>> j.append(2)
>     >>> j
>     [9, 8, 2]
>     >>> a
>     [9, 8]
>     >>>
> -- 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 


From vivek.bhaskar at gmail.com  Tue Aug  3 20:51:06 2004
From: vivek.bhaskar at gmail.com (Vivek)
Date: 3 Aug 2004 17:51:06 -0700
Subject: SOAPpy and WSDL and basic authentication
Message-ID: <82ae0630.0408031651.4f068f74@posting.google.com>

Hi,

Can anyone provide me with sample code that will allow me to use
SOAPpy with a WSDL file using HTTP basic authentication? The only
thing I've been able to find on the net is SOAPpy.URLopener. However,
I am unclear what the relationship is between SOAPpy.URLopener and
SOAPpy.WSDL is.

Is it as straightforward as this?
> from SOAPpy import WSDL
> url = 'http://user:pass at www.server.com/path/to/wsdl'
> ssClient = WSDL.proxy(url)
> ssClient.Test() # assuming Test is a SOAP-Action

Or do I need to use SOAPpy.URLopener like so?
> from SOAPpy import WSDL
> from SOAPpy import URLopener
> url = 'http://user:pass at www.server.com/path/to/wsdl'
> url1 = URLopener.URLopener(username='user',passwd='pass')
> ssClient = WSDL.proxy(url1.open(url))
> ssClient.Test() # assumption as above

Or do I need to do something completely different?

All help is much appreicated.

Vivek


From chris.cavalaria at free.fr  Sat Aug 28 18:12:32 2004
From: chris.cavalaria at free.fr (Christophe Cavalaria)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 00:12:32 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87hdqok9i6.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1rfz68ely9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<876574k7du.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1r3c28ejis.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<zILXc.54863$xi6.26091@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<xjvpt5aexeb.fsf@nelja.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <41310350$0$13687$636a15ce@news.free.fr>

Igor V. Rafienko wrote:

> [ Paul McGuire ]
> 
> [ ... ]
> 
>> In fact, you can cite examples on this argument in either direction;
> 
> 
> I am a bit curious, what are the arguments _against_ an explicit
> end-of-block marker? Does such a marker create any problems? (I know
> that it solves a couple, though).

It's unpythonic ?

> As a side note -- my last employer had absolutely horrible coding
> conventions. No one liked them (developers and management included).
> However, everyone had to comply, and despite an occasional nastiness,
> the bug that you illustrated could not have happened in that
> environment, because _every_ if was required to have its body within
> braces.

Well, there are worse coding conventions than that. Remember that chaining
unbraced if and else if becomes ambiguous.


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 10:44:17 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 00:44:17 +1000
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <cgkq0i$3ii$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgkeio$spo$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2411.1093517690.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<du7brgyt8hm.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi> <opsdb950eb1v4ijd@musicbox>
	<cgkq0i$3ii$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082607443f42c413@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:44:27 +0100, Michael Sparks
<michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk> wrote:
> Using proposed J2: (tested)
> class Foo:
>    using:
>       staticmethod
>       eval("(memoise,esiomem)[x==0]")
>    def Hoo(Who, *args):
>       print "Yoo", Who

Why wouldn't you instead write this as:

if x == 0:
   dec = esiomem
else:
   dec = memoise
@staticmethod
@dec
def Hoo(Who, *args):
  ....

Don't use eval unless it's absolutely necessary, _please_.


From ville at spammers.com  Sun Aug  8 03:20:09 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 08 Aug 2004 10:20:09 +0300
Subject: Paul Graham on Python hackers
References: <cf1p1f$ke0@odak26.prod.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.07.10.51.16.393303@teliko.net>
	<du7r7qjnjvl.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>
	<10hbik7nskhgn90@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <du7oelmm6za.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Mike" == Michael Geary <Mike at Geary.com> writes:

    zoltan> This a flamebait, right? Otherwise I would be interested
    zoltan> in the features which make Python similar to Java
    zoltan> (shudder).

    Mike> Ville Vainio:


    >> Abundant reference semantics. Of course this is true of all OOP

    Mike> What are "Abundant reference semantics"?

References are used all over the language:

MyClass o = GetObject();

MyClass o2 = o;  // o2 will point to the name object

This is much like in Python (being the optimal way of doing OOP after
all), and in contrast to Perl and C++ that have special syntax for
using references/pointers.

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From djc at object-craft.com.au  Tue Aug 24 00:02:22 2004
From: djc at object-craft.com.au (Dave Cole)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:02:22 +1000
Subject: newbie: confused with example in Learning Python 2nd Edition:
 can anyone give a hint
In-Reply-To: <412ab47c_5@newsfeed.slurp.net>
References: <56cfb0e3.0408231710.27d78703@posting.google.com>
	<412ab47c_5@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Message-ID: <o7zWc.26271$%r.296863@nasal.pacific.net.au>

Steven Rumbalski wrote:
> Porky Pig Jr wrote:
> So the corrected code should look like:
> 
>>>>class Stack:
> 
>  ...     def __init__(self, data):
>  ...             self._data = list(data)
>  ...             self.push = _data.append
>  ...             self.pop = _data.pop

 >>>class Stack:
...     def __init__(self, data):
...             self._data = list(data)
...             self.push = self._data.append
...             self.pop = self._data.pop

-- 
http://www.object-craft.com.au


From b.niemann at betternet.de  Tue Aug 31 07:29:55 2004
From: b.niemann at betternet.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:29:55 +0200
Subject: Python Usage Statistics
In-Reply-To: <bba535b4.0408310322.248af2b0@posting.google.com>
References: <bba535b4.0408310322.248af2b0@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <ch1nfi$gco$1@online.de>

Eric S. Raymond made a comparison of language usage for projects 
published on sourceforge and freshmeat for his book "The Art of Unix 
Programming":
http://www.faqs.org/docs/artu/ch14s05.html#lang_usage
Only covers opensource software and not uptodate anymore though.

Anand Pillai wrote:

> Hi Folks 
> 
>      (posting after a loooong time...)
> 
>     I have been contracted by an Indian publisher to author an
> introductory text book on Python. As a part of the introductory
> chapter, I thought it would be a good idea to present a number, a
> round-about figure on the approximate *actual* usage of Python out
> there in number of developers and/or installations.
> 
>     Scrounging the Web for such statistics is proving elusive. The PBF
> website seems to be the official place for these, but there also they
> just have listings of companies/instituitions using Python, not any
> numbers.
> 
>     Has anybody done an actual market survey anytime recently on
> Python usage in the software community? If so, where can I get access
> to this information? I would be more interested in the number of
> developers, both commercial/non-commercial who are doing development
> using Python. Since almost every Linux distro now a days contains
> Python by default, a number based on the installations could prove
> faulty.
> 
> Have a nice day.
>      
> -Anand


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Mon Aug  2 20:24:32 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 17:24:32 -0700
Subject: transforming a list into a string
References: <pan.2004.07.31.12.27.23.547000@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <1091493039.363950@news.commspeed.net>


"jblazi" <jblazi at hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.07.31.12.27.23.547000 at hotmail.com...
> Let us assume I have a list like
>
> ['1','2','7','8','12','13]
>
> and would like to transoform it into the string
>
> '{1,2},{7,8},{12,13}'
>
> Which is the simplest way of achiebing this? (The list is in fact much
> longer and I may have to cut the resulting strings into chunks of 100 or
> so.)
>
> TIA,
>
> jb
>
Try,'
>>>items = ['1','2','7','8','12','13']
>>>import string
>>>string.join([('{'+str(items[x])+','+str(items[x+1])+'}') for x in
range(0,len(items)-1,2)])

Tom




From me at privacy.net  Mon Aug  2 05:11:49 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Duncan Booth)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 09:11:49 GMT
Subject: transforming a list into a string
References: <pan.2004.07.31.12.27.23.547000@hotmail.com>
	<roy-982174.13075831072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<cegqdu$2fb$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<mailman.1020.1091310303.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-FDE83B.19595731072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1022.1091319366.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011814020.21160-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <Xns953961E926AECduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>

Christopher T King <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote in
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011814020.21160-100000 at ccc4.wpi.edu: 

> On Sat, 31 Jul 2004, Tim Peters wrote:
> 
>> Absolutely.  Note that Peter Otten previously posted a lovely O(N)
>> solution in this thread, although it may be too clever for some
>> tastes:
>> 
>> >>> from itertools import izip
>> >>> items = ['1','2','7','8','12','13']
>> >>> it = iter(items)
>> >>> ",".join(["{%s,%s}" % i for i in izip(it, it)])
>> '{1,2},{7,8},{12,13}'
>> >>>
> 
> A bit too clever for mine, mostly because neither izip() nor zip() is 
> guaranteed to process its arguments in a left-to-right order (although
> there's no reason for them not to). 

You should read an earlier thread on this topic:

http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?threadm=c91pft%24rl0%2404%241%40news.t-online.com 

I make exactly that point, that the order isn't guaranteed, and was
refuted fairly convincingly by Peter Otten. The documentation says that
izip is equivalent to a particular reference implementation. Any
implementation which didn't preserve the left to right ordering wouldn't
match the reference:

Peter Otten wrote:

>> Passing the same iterator multiple times to izip is a pretty neat
>> idea, but I would still be happier if the documentation explicitly
>> stated that it consumes its arguments left to right.
> 
> From the itertools documentation:
> 
> """
> izip(*iterables)
> 
> Make an iterator that aggregates elements from each of the iterables.
> Like zip() except that it returns an iterator instead of a list. Used
> for lock-step iteration over several iterables at a time. Equivalent
> to: 
> 
>      def izip(*iterables):
>          iterables = map(iter, iterables)
>          while iterables:
>              result = [i.next() for i in iterables]
>              yield tuple(result)
> """
> 
> I'd say the "Equivalent to [reference implementation]" statement
> should meet your request.





From elbertlev at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 23 17:20:00 2004
From: elbertlev at hotmail.com (Elbert Lev)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 14:20:00 -0700
Subject: 2 GB files
References: <9418be08.0408221427.182a4d30@posting.google.com>
	<prSdnX0h1KUgubTcRVn-gg@lmi.net>
	<9418be08.0408221939.7003bd3c@posting.google.com>
	<cgcv5v$sjq$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <9418be08.0408231320.5fe3c40c@posting.google.com>

Bart Nessux <bart_nessux at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<cgcv5v$sjq$1 at solaris.cc.vt.edu>...

> > I suggest start discussing additions to the library. This will improve
> > the package and make it easier to administer.
> > 
> > In my daily programming activities there are several alternatives to
> > Python, f.e. Java or .NET with their comprehensive libraries of
> > classes (much richer then Python's). And what stops me from using it?
> > The size of the distributive! I understand that adding too much will
> > result in an increase of the size of distribution, but something has
> > to be done.
> 
> Having never used Java or .NET... how do they compare in size to Python? 
> I've found that the standard Python download works for me in 95% of the 
> tasks in Windows (sys admin tasks). 
> 

Java and .NET are also free. 

Java run-time and development are free. 
.NET run-time is free.
Java has a little bit better off-the-box library, then .NET, but is
much harder to use in nonsuppervised fashion (CLASSPATH junk).

Sizes: Java development 130MB, .NET development 110MB + 2GB+ for MSDN
and VS (very good). Runtime: Java 32MB and up with options, .NET 18MB.
These libraries are more universal (but lower level) then Python's.


> But sometimes I need Hammond's win32 
> extensions, but only rarely. I've also used the pexpect module a lot... 
> I wish that would be integrated into the main distro, but overall, I'm 
> very pleased with the balance of bang for the buck...

For windows I consider this a part of standard distribution. Additions
you are using depend on what you are douing most.

> Oh, I forgot, Python is free. Perhaps the developers are willing to 
> provide a refund to dissatisfied users ;)

They do not :(


From crgre.znnf at hgvybt.qr  Thu Aug 26 15:12:22 2004
From: crgre.znnf at hgvybt.qr (Peter Maas)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 21:12:22 +0200
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2427.1093530870.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>	<VJOdnfiBTci22rDcRVn-gg@adelphia.com>	<aNidnUSV4-OK4rDcRVn-jA@powergate.ca>	<b301fb47.0408260503.5dbb08f5@posting.google.com>	<cgkqva$47g$1@swifty.westend.com>
	<mailman.2427.1093530870.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2p6r21Fho83oU1@uni-berlin.de>

Marco Aschwanden schrieb:
>> What does the Kaj ... phrase mean?
>> "You are dumb", "Your joke is dumb", ...?
[...]
> letter 'y' - is not esperanto. And your joke is nothing but stupid.

Thanks, Marco.

Mit freundlichen Gruessen,

Peter Maas

-- 
Peter Maas, Aachen, Germany, Tel +49-241-38200 e-mail crgre.znnf at hgvybt.qr


From elainejackson7355 at home.com  Thu Aug 19 19:04:21 2004
From: elainejackson7355 at home.com (Elaine Jackson)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:04:21 GMT
Subject: Tkinter
References: <8e16829.0408190703.1c6845d7@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <VlaVc.146435$M95.137119@pd7tw1no>

Premierement: "Tkinter" (majuscule)

Mais il est bien possible que le module n'est pas la (cherchez-le pour etre
certain). En tout cas il est disponible sur Internet.

HTH

"Roland" <yaoroland07 at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8e16829.0408190703.1c6845d7 at posting.google.com...
| Salut,
|
|
|       J'utilise LNUX RedHat 9.0 et je n'arrive pas ? utilser Tkinter
| car ? chaque fois que j'essaye de faire executer un code dans lequel
| j'ai import? le module Tkinter, j'obtient:
|                      from tkinter import*
|                      ImportError: No module named tkinter  .
| Je croyais que ce module ?tait int?gr? ? python.
|             AIDEZ-MOI
|  Merci




From dd55 at cornell.edu  Fri Aug 20 09:19:16 2004
From: dd55 at cornell.edu (Darren Dale)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:19:16 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <cg4tok$i3i$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>

J2,J2,J2


From jbenson at lowell.edu  Wed Aug 18 21:51:02 2004
From: jbenson at lowell.edu (Jim Benson)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:51:02 -0700 (MST)
Subject: introspection?
In-Reply-To: <200408181736.13789.troy@gci.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408181840570.966-100000@sextans.mesa.lowellnet>

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Troy Melhase wrote:

> import sys
> def F():
>     print sys._getframe().f_code.co_name
> >>> F()
> F

ooooh...thanks Troy!
indeed that works fine for getting the method name.

Thanks to all...and apologies for taking the easy way out
by posting to this very helpful list rather than 
doing more research with google (actually i did
do a search for 'python class method introspection' 
before posting...i didn't look at all the returns).

Thanks,

Jim






From quaggy at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 00:39:02 2004
From: quaggy at gmail.com (Jonathan Wright)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 21:39:02 -0700
Subject: Fun transformation problem
In-Reply-To: <cgm608$8kl@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgmdt6$od3@odah37.prod.google.com>

.def trans(paths):
.    tree = {}
.    for path in paths:
.        reduce(lambda branch,node: branch.setdefault(node,{}),
path[:-2], tree)[path[-2]] = path[-1]
.    return tree

Also seems to work. ;-)

Jonathan.



From jason at injektilo.org  Sat Aug 21 21:08:27 2004
From: jason at injektilo.org (Jason Diamond)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:08:27 -0700
Subject: Detecteing Unicode encodings
In-Reply-To: <bn8fi0t78iih0p90qagl6svmuea0al79ti@4ax.com>
References: <rfWdnUw41o6SELrcRVn-qQ@adelphia.com>
	<bn8fi0t78iih0p90qagl6svmuea0al79ti@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <LNydnSJ-Ua6Tb7rcRVn-sA@adelphia.com>

Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou wrote:
> 2. wrap your file-like object in a custom object, which implements a
> pushback method and its read method returns first from the push-back
> buffer.  If you read data that you shouldn't, push them back and give
> your custom object to the StreamReader.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Instead of a pushback method, I added a peek method. Below is what I 
came up with.

-- Jason

class PeekableFile:

     def __init__(self, source):
         self.source = source
         self.buffer = None

     def peek(self, size):
         if self.buffer:
             n = len(self.buffer)
             if size > n:
                 self.buffer += self.source.read(size - n)
         else:
             self.buffer = self.source.read(size)
         return self.buffer[:size]

     def read(self, size=-1):
         if self.buffer:
             if size >= 0:
                 n = len(self.buffer)
                 if size < n:
                     s = self.buffer[:size]
                     self.buffer = self.buffer[size:]
                 elif size == n:
                     s = self.buffer
                     self.buffer = None
                 else:
                     s = self.buffer + self.source.read(size - n)
                     self.buffer = None
             else:
                 s = self.buffer + self.source.read()
                 self.buffer = None
         else:
             s = self.source.read(size)
         return s

def main():

     import StringIO
     import unittest

     class PeekableFileTests(unittest.TestCase):

         def setUp(self):
             f = StringIO.StringIO('abc')
             self.pf = PeekableFile(f)

         def testPeek0(self):
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.peek(0), '')

         def testPeek1(self):
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.peek(1), 'a')

         def testPeek1Read1(self):
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.peek(1), 'a')
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.read(1), 'a')

         def testPeek1Read2(self):
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.peek(1), 'a')
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.read(2), 'ab')

         def testPeek1ReadAll(self):
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.peek(1), 'a')
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.read(), 'abc')

         def testPeek1Read1Read1(self):
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.peek(1), 'a')
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.read(1), 'a')
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.read(1), 'b')

         def testPeek1Read1ReadAll(self):
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.peek(1), 'a')
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.read(1), 'a')
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.read(), 'bc')

         def testPeek1Peek1(self):
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.peek(1), 'a')
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.peek(1), 'a')

         def testPeek1Peek2(self):
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.peek(1), 'a')
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.peek(2), 'ab')

         def testPeek2Peek1(self):
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.peek(2), 'ab')
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.peek(1), 'a')

         def testPeek2Read1Peek1(self):
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.peek(2), 'ab')
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.read(1), 'a')
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.peek(1), 'b')

         def testRead0(self):
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.read(0), '')

         def testRead1(self):
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.read(1), 'a')

         def testReadAll(self):
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.read(), 'abc')

         def testRead1Peek1(self):
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.read(1), 'a')
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.peek(1), 'b')

         def testReadAllPeek1(self):
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.read(), 'abc')
             self.failUnlessEqual(self.pf.peek(1), '')

     unittest.TextTestRunner().run(unittest.makeSuite(PeekableFileTests))

if __name__ == '__main__':
     main()


From no_replies at fake_email_address.invalid  Sun Aug  1 17:42:14 2004
From: no_replies at fake_email_address.invalid (Robert Oschler)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 17:42:14 -0400
Subject: Module for converting XML to Python object(s)?
Message-ID: <otdPc.224$df.27@bignews5.bellsouth.net>

Has anybody seen a Python module that will take an XML document (not a
colossal one), and convert it to a Python nested class object?  I'm
basically looking for something that would allow me to parse an XML document
(not tokenize it like SAX or make it into an XPath accessible DOM object
like others), directly into a nested Python object so I could access
everything through Python class attribute references.

Thanks.
-- 
Robert




From rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm  Mon Aug 23 14:18:50 2004
From: rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm (Roel Schroeven)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 18:18:50 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1999.1092969866.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <20040819231139.D039A1E4003@bag.python.org>
	<mailman.1999.1092969866.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <eyqWc.223375$j62.10948731@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

Sakesun Roykiattisak wrote:

> BTW, The histrogram suggest that python is not being used as the first 
> programming language as much as it should be.

Indeed.

Also the relatively high number of older programmers (> 50) surprises 
me. Personnaly I know only one programmer in that age group, all others 
are less than 40 years old. Possibly the fraction of older programmers 
is larger under Python programmers compared to other languages? Maybe 
that shouldn't be surprising: wisdom comes with age, as they say.

-- 
"Codito ergo sum"
Roel Schroeven


From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Wed Aug 25 15:46:55 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 21:46:55 +0200
Subject: authentication service for unix
Message-ID: <cgiqb2$2h4$01$1@news.t-online.com>

Hi,

this is not so much a python question, but as my app is developed in python,
I'll ask anway.

I'm looking for a method to authenticate users for a corba application
server, running under linux. I want to be able to authenticate users that
are valid unix users. Having role/group information would be nice later on.

Currently I use PAM, but thats not so good as I have to run the process as
root - but for obvious reasons I don't especially like that idea.

Any ideas? May ladp of any use here? Saslauthd seems to look good, but so
far I haven't found a binding.

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From jacek.generowicz at cern.ch  Wed Aug 25 04:41:20 2004
From: jacek.generowicz at cern.ch (Jacek Generowicz)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 10:41:20 +0200
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<roy-37CEFC.10153622082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<wt6dncL0d4DMJLXcRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <tyfu0urpq33.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> writes:

> The last time I checked, Java and C++ (even C) were widely
> considered to be high level languages.

The fact many people hold an erroneous belief, does not make said
belief any less erroneous.

> Has someone been raising the bar while I wasn't looking?

The developers of all the truly high-level languages ?

There was a time when assembler was high-level.


From Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU  Tue Aug 31 10:19:39 2004
From: Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU (Michael J. Fromberger)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:19:39 -0400
Subject: Splitting a list
References: <mailman.2673.1093960462.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Michael.J.Fromberger-E91B56.10193931082004@localhost>

In article <mailman.2673.1093960462.5135.python-list at python.org>,
 "Ian Sparks" <Ian.Sparks at etrials.com> wrote:

> string.split() is very useful, but what if I want to split a list of integers 
> on some element value?
> 
>  e.g. :
> 
> >> l = [1,2,3,-1,4,5,-1,8,9]
> >> l.split(-1)
> >> [[1,2,3],[4,5],[8,9]]
> 
> Here's my hideous first pass :
> 
> >> [[int(z) for z in x.split(',') if z] for x in ','.join([str(a) for a in 
> >> l]).split('-1')]
> >> [[1, 2, 3], [4, 5], [8, 9]]
> 
> When I see code like that I just know I've missed something obvious....

How about this?

  def split_list(L, brk):
    last = -1
    out = []
    
    for pos in [ x for (x, y) in enumerate(L) if y == brk ]:
      out.append(L[last + 1 : pos])
      last = pos
    
    out.append(L[last + 1:])
    return out

-M

-- 
Michael J. Fromberger             | Lecturer, Dept. of Computer Science
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~sting/  | Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA


From ville at spammers.com  Sat Aug  7 09:43:58 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 07 Aug 2004 16:43:58 +0300
Subject: Paul Graham on Python hackers
References: <cf1p1f$ke0@odak26.prod.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.07.10.51.16.393303@teliko.net>
Message-ID: <du7r7qjnjvl.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "zoltan" == Zoltan Sekeres <zoltan at teliko.net> writes:

    zoltan> On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 22:23:59 -0700, ellisjb wrote:

    >> (In all seriousness I think python and java have a lot more in
    >> common than python and perl.)

    zoltan> This a flamebait, right? Otherwise I would be interested
    zoltan> in the features which make Python similar to Java
    zoltan> (shudder).

Abundant reference semantics. Of course this is true of all OOP
language, and Java doesn't go all the way with it either, but it's the
most popular language that does it. It is also the first OOP language
that does it that I tried, and I totally digged Java for a while
before meeting Python and other languages that do it, and realized
Java is still yet another static-typing-done-wrong low level language.

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From robin at reportlab.com  Thu Aug 19 05:26:36 2004
From: robin at reportlab.com (Robin Becker)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:26:36 +0100
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4124724C.8040001@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>

Lucas Raab wrote:

> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....
> 
> 
so far with a count of 74 the average is 35.72
-- 
Robin Becker


From olivier.parisy at free.fr  Sun Aug 29 18:25:33 2004
From: olivier.parisy at free.fr (Olivier Parisy)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 00:25:33 +0200
Subject: Enumerating Network Adapters
In-Reply-To: <cgt571$8lv$06$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <4131b09e$0$13683$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
	<cgt571$8lv$06$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <413257dd$0$26986$626a14ce@news.free.fr>

Diez B. Roggisch wrote:

> This has been discussed quite a few times on this NG, search google groups.
> However IMHO there is no general system built-in way (AFAIK not even posix)
> for doing this, you'll end up parsing tool output anyway...

I should have done this first, my mistake...

But actually, a previously posted message suggests a portable way to get
the platform IPs. Citing John Abel :

 > socket.gethostbyaddr( socket.gethostname() ) will return all the
 > details that you need to know.  For example, the output of that
 > command on my machine is :
 >
 > ('hallows', [], ['101.101.101.102', '10.253.1.118'])

Are there some pitfalls I'm not aware of ?

Thanks,
Olivier Parisy.



From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Wed Aug  4 14:45:50 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 14:45:50 -0400
Subject: intermittent smtp module problems (with sendmail) in python
 2.2.1
In-Reply-To: <bd764350.0408041023.35ee518b@posting.google.com>
References: <bd764350.0408041023.35ee518b@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408041442380.14974-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu>

On 4 Aug 2004, Karl Ehr wrote:

> I have written the following simple program to monitor a single URL,
> and notify me via email whenever this URL changes.    Intermittently,
> I raise the following exception:
> 
> smtplib.SMTPServerDisconnected: Connection unexpectedly closed

This is probably happening because of a timeout on the SMTP server.  Try 
moving this line:

> server = smtplib.SMTP('localhost') # server to relay smtp through for

To right in front of where you use it:

>     server.set_debuglevel(1)
>     server.sendmail(sourceAddress, emailAddress, message)
>     server.quit()

the SMTP() constructor doesn't just set up a connection (and open it on 
.sendmail()); it opens the connection when it's called and leaves it open 
until you call .quit() (or delete the object).



From kyle at lakeofburningfire.org  Fri Aug 27 22:05:43 2004
From: kyle at lakeofburningfire.org (Kyle Yancey)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 02:05:43 GMT
Subject: Zope  2.7.2 win32 - Sessions not working
Message-ID: <bopvi0dba5cq35btc44ir6i96345333nb8@4ax.com>

I've scratched my chin over this for the longest time.  I think I'm
going to need some help.  I'm creating a web app with zope.  It has a
typical user login based on email and password.  A ZSql method is
called to look up the customers unique id.  That id is then assigned
to their session cookie so I can allow to them to go to an account
page where they can change their preferences.  Unfortunately, zope
sessions just don't seem to be working at all.  I know something is
being assigned, because Transient Object Container session_data says
that it contains 8 items even though I only tried to set one.  Any
help would be appreciated.

request = container.REQUEST
response =  request.RESPONSE
session = request.SESSION

html_page = """<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0
Transitional//EN">
<html><head><title></title>
<meta http-equiv="REFRESH" content="0;url=/Account"></HEAD>
<BODY></BODY></HTML>"""
if session.has_key('id'):
    return html_page

if request.REQUEST_METHOD == 'POST':
    rec = context.Sql.get_user_id(email = email, password = password)
    if rec:
        cust_id = rec.dictionaries()[0]['cust_id']
        session.set('id', cust_id)

return html_page



From geoff at variosoft.com  Mon Aug  9 19:58:15 2004
From: geoff at variosoft.com (Geoff Caplan)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 00:58:15 +0100
Subject: Compiling disutil modules on Windows
In-Reply-To: <7947683945.20040807214448@variosoft.com>
References: <7947683945.20040807214448@variosoft.com>
Message-ID: <81144000832.20040810005815@variosoft.com>

Hi folks,

I now have mingw working, but some of the packages I want to try are
only distributed in disutils format. I can't figure out a way to get
these packages to use the mingw compiler. Is this possible, or do I
really have to shell out $$ to microsoft to get these installed?

------------------ 
Geoff Caplan
Vario Software Ltd
(+44) 121-515 1154 



From zathras at thwackety.com  Wed Aug 25 16:11:36 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 21:11:36 +0100
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <412cf775$0$11496$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net>

Robert Brewer wrote:
...
> The patch is nearly complete;

Patch against current CVS passes all the tests* and has been uploaded to
SourceForge. I'm currently looking at how __future__ declarations work, and
that will be the next step, but based on useful feedback this looks
relatively simple to do.

 * Well, put another way, the only tests that fail are those that fail with
   an unmodified CVS tree. 

> This is a call for all who wish to sign the proposal, either for,
> against, or abstaining. Please sign by either posting on
> comp.lang.python (replying to this is fine),

Please consider this a vote FOR - I doubt that'll surprise however ;-)

Regards,


Michael.



From natunika at gmx.de  Tue Aug 17 12:06:15 2004
From: natunika at gmx.de (Silke)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 09:06:15 -0700
Subject: serial and threads
References: <39ba6e78.0408170215.59f5bfc0@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <39ba6e78.0408170554.4b6b46bf@posting.google.com>

Hi again,

I already found a solution using 'threading' instead of 'thread' :-)

Ciao,

Silke


natunika at gmx.de (Silke) wrote in message news:<39ba6e78.0408170215.59f5bfc0 at posting.google.com>...
> Hi all!
> 
> I'm trying to write a program in python using the modules
> 'serialwin32' and 'thread' to create one thread that writes to a
> serial port and another one that reads from it at 'the same time'. My
> definitions are
> 
> def NetworkToSerial(input):
>         s.write(binascii.unhexlify(input))        
>         print "SENT: %s" % input                  
> 
> def SerialToNetwork():
>                 result = s.read(1)
>                 print "RECEIVED:"
>                 print binascii.hexlify(result) 
> 
> and I call them with
> 
> thread.start_new_thread(NetworkToSerial, (command,))             
> thread.start_new_thread(SerialToNetwork, ())
> 
> The first one seems to run fine, but for the second one I get the
> error message 'ClearCommError', 'the handle is invalid'.
> 
> Does anyone have a clue whether maybe serialwin32 is not
> thread-compatible?
> 
> Thanks for your help in advance!
> 
> Silke


From martin at v.loewis.de  Sun Aug  8 03:46:53 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 09:46:53 +0200
Subject: compiling with msvc7
In-Reply-To: <875af5e2.0408071735.4c1fdf89@posting.google.com>
References: <875af5e2.0408071735.4c1fdf89@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <4115da69$0$161$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

?ke wrote:
> I am trying to comile C code to python with weaver, using Microsoft
> Visual Studio .NET (which I think uses VS 7.0)  but I get an error
> that Python is compiled with VS 6 and so doesn't work.
> 
> Anyone knows a workaround for this ?

Recompile Python, or buy VC6.

Regards,
Martin


From kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no  Mon Aug 30 22:43:12 2004
From: kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Torgrim Homme)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 04:43:12 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <mailman.2561.1093693080.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1rsma49ge7.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>

[Michael Sparks]:
>
>   The solution isn't to change the language in my eyes, the solution
>   is to produce better tools. After all, the following is legal
>   syntax in python if you really want close markers:
>   
>   end = None
>   for ch in "hello":
>      if ch == "l":
>         print "Rhubarb"
>      end
>      print ch,
>   end

that's a really cool trick!  perhaps a little prettier than the
established "# end if", but like the comment it has no effect on
Python's own code validation, so it's strictly not much of an
improvement.  but it inspired me to beget this evil hack:

  1  from block_end import end
  2
  3  def test():
  4      if True:
  5          print 'hello world'
  6          end('if')
  7  end('def')
  8
  9  test()

when you run this code, you'll get the error message:
block_end.IndentationError: Missing if on line 5, end on line 6

the module does _very_ rudimentary parsing of the source code and only
flags errors during run-time.  I'm not saying this is useful, but it
was fun to write :-)

since the module is just shy of hundred lines, I'm not including it
here.  please refer to this URL if you're interested in looking at the
implementation.

    http://heim.ifi.uio.no/~kjetilho/hacks/block_end.py

-- 
Kjetil T.


From aranders at insightbb.com  Sat Aug  7 01:40:22 2004
From: aranders at insightbb.com (Alan Anderson)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 22:40:22 -0700
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>	<opsb9g3hjudgjose@mail.yahoo.it>
	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2-SdnZCwNs1SwI_cRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <53449fcb.0408062140.181fd30d@posting.google.com>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> Yes, of course after using them for a while they will become more 
> readable, but there are people who have learned to speak Klingon as
> well -- and that doesn't change the fact that Klingon is deliberately
> very difficult to learn and awkward.

Pardon me for jumping in, but I happen to be attending a conference on
the Klingon language at the moment and I wanted to correct a
misunderstanding.  Yes, Klingon is deliberately "alien", being
intentionally created to be unlike many natural languages in many
ways. But it's actually rather easy to learn, and it's only "awkward"
in a couple of minor ways (embedding comparatives in larger sentences,
for example) -- *every* language has its awkward spots.

Were Klingon a natural language, its regularity would be exceptional.

This is just an anectodal data point that might let you know that what
is difficult and awkward from your point of view could very well be
simple and straightforward for others who don't share your
preconceptions.

--
  Alan Anderson, professional programmer and amateur Klingonist
    proud member of the Klingon Language Institute since 1995
qo'mey poSmoH Hol -- language opens worlds -- http://www.kli.org/


From ted at soleburymountain.com  Tue Aug 24 18:50:21 2004
From: ted at soleburymountain.com (tdi)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 15:50:21 -0700
Subject: How does a "script" differ from a "program" or "subroutine"?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2304.1093384764.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgggnd$8c7@odbk17.prod.google.com>

aha! That makes sense. That's what I was looking for.

I hadn't expected this simple query to generate so many replies.
Thanks to all for helping to clarify this point.

-Ted



From apardon at forel.vub.ac.be  Fri Aug 27 05:42:08 2004
From: apardon at forel.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 09:42:08 GMT
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
	<dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
	<aN5Xc.205341$M95.157379@pd7tw1no>
	<1gj4fb5.607xsc51izh8N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xllg25lkt.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj4u3a.12ttba9fynd6uN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncis152.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<1gj5bp4.qhup8tldmvebN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncitrk7.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<7xk6vlgemp.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <slrnciu0fg.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>

Op 2004-08-27, Paul Rubin schreef <>:
> Antoon Pardon <apardon at forel.vub.ac.be> writes:
>> but having operators like '+=' which have a different kind of result
>> depending on whether you have a mutable or immutable object is IMO
>> not such a good design and I wonder what design principle inspired them.
>
> += was added to Python fairly recently (in 2.0, I think) and there was
> a lot of agonizing about whether to add it.  It was one of those
> things like the ?: construction.  On the one hand there was the
> abstract objection you raise.  On the other hand there were lots of
> users frustrated at being unable to say v[f(x)] += 1 instead of having
> to call f twice or introduce a temp variable or something.
> Eventually, practicality beat purity.

Fine practicality beats purity, but then the proponents shouldn't
put that much weight on consistency, because practicality breaks
consistency.

In this case I think the practicality of method chaining beats
the purity of not allowing side-effects in print statements and
of having only one obvious way to do things.

I don't see that much difference in the frustration of having
to write: 

  t = f(x)
  v[t] = v[t] + 1

and the frustration of having to write

  lst = f(x)
  lst.sort()
  lst.reverse()

-- 
Antoon Pardon


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Sun Aug 22 11:01:27 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 15:01:27 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WE
	DONE?
References: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<t5idnRg0lMA7B7XcRVn-qA@comcast.com>
	<ifchi0hqmhpag5umuukest5v4f2e73hjud@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <bz2Wc.8470$Jn5.6613@fe1.texas.rr.com>


"Arthur" <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote in message
news:ifchi0hqmhpag5umuukest5v4f2e73hjud at 4ax.com...
> On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 08:07:53 -0500, Doug Holton <insert at spam.here>
> wrote:
>
> >Paul McGuire wrote:
> >> Total voters: 55
> >> Of all of the votes cast, J2
> >> received 48%, C1 received 18%.  No other option received more than 10%
of
> >> any votes.
> >
> >I vote 3 times for C1.  So just my one vote raises C1 to 20%.  I think
> >you need to do an online poll so you get more people than just those who
> >have been discussing the decorator keyword here this past week.  I got
> >over 250 votes for C1 just last week vs. the 22 who voted for J2 here.
> >During this 2nd poll people were confused about whether they could vote
> >for A1 or not, and some people said many of the options on the wiki page
> >were not allowed anymore.
> >
>
> I think it should also be noted in the report of the voting results
> that the a vote for "no new syntax at this time" was specifically
> outlawed.
>
> As a side point:
>
> It seems ironic to me that in a group devoted to an appreciation of
> Python, and its advocacy - it is often those who reject the notion
> that the language has the kinds of glaring weaknesses that require
> some fundamental change ot it, that form the opposition to an
> "establishment" that has become convinced quite otherwise.
>
> I sometimes wish those folks were more candid about its deficiencies
> before I started my study of it back in 1.5.2 days.
>
> Art




From noone at here.com  Sun Aug 22 12:18:51 2004
From: noone at here.com (M. Clift)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 17:18:51 +0100
Subject: Making different things equal
References: <cga9ha$4rl$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<Td3Wc.496441$Gx4.133939@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <cgah0v$aio$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>

Hi Wes,

Thanks for looking at this! I appreciate your effort.

The system works very well, but I want it to see Bob as being the same thing
as Mary. So for example it won't give [Bob, whoever, Mary] as that would be
the same as [Mary, whoever, Mary] or [Bob, whoever, Bob].

M




From PPNTWIMBXFFC at spammotel.com  Fri Aug 27 03:00:26 2004
From: PPNTWIMBXFFC at spammotel.com (Marco Aschwanden)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:00:26 +0200
Subject: How to generically transform a list?
References: <opsdcguchn35jo5o@news.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <opsddpq0fh35jo5o@news.gmane.org>


Thanks to all the hints which seem to prove that there is one and only one 
sensible approach - though some (like me) needed a few more lines.

It is just funny how easy horizontal slicing is made (list[:]) but how 
"difficult" vertical slicing is. It is a common task and one does not 
realize how often one does need vertical slicing. eg.: getting the keys of 
dictionary is a vertical slicing, or turning a list into a dict involves 
vertical slicing...

Just out of pure curiosity: Is there a langue that allows vertical and 
horizontal slicing and dicing with the same built-in pattern?

Regards,
Marco (Eagerly awaiting the cookbook's second edition)





From ajsiegel at optonline.net  Wed Aug 11 11:25:59 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (ajsiegel at optonline.net)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:25:59 -0400
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar,
 but for what exactly? (decorator libraries).
Message-ID: <1b42a711b44f53.1b44f531b42a71@optonline.net>


>    >> Yes (using a class instead of a module simply for convenience):
>    ...
> 
>    Art> Is it me, or this a chilling argument agaisnt where 
> things are
>    Art> going.
> 
> I'm not sure what you're getting at.  Nobody said a decorator's
> implementation had to be simple.  It can, after all, perform pretty
> arbitrary transformations.

I guess, as a reading experience, I find enough dissonance to lose motivation
to make the effort to follow the flow.

Purely subjective. I offer this as a barometric reading from the point of view of
a certain segment of the Python reading public.  

Understanding that part of what I am up against is unavoidable complexity in
he code, and following would not be child's play to me, in any case.
Something though puts it beyond my cognative -what, interest.

> 
>    Art> But when there is a lot less going on than meets the eye ...
> 
> Again, I'm confused.  Look at just the fib() definition:
> 
>    @martha.memoize
>    def fib(n):
>        assert n >= 0
>        print n
>        if n <= 1:
>            return 1
>        return n + fib(n-1)
> 
> The decorator says the function will be memoized.  That memoizing an
> arbitrary function's values using a dict isn't entirely 
> straightforwardshouldn't prevent people from being able to easily 
> memoize functions whose
> outputs only depend on their inputs.  By analogy, I use 
> urllib.urlopen() all
> the time without completely understanding all the ins and outs of 
> what it
> does.
> 
> Perhaps the decorator would be better named "idempotent"?
> 
> Or were you objecting to something else?

Well, I one hand I understand decorators to be syntatical sugar for existing
Python functionality, and on the other I hear talk of the building of decorator
libraries based on the introduction of decorators, as if we were talking about a
new classs of functionality.

Certainly the introduction of decorators seems to be encouraging a new style of
programming.  That style might be have advantages.  And it might in fact be
good for someone exactly like myself, to be exposed to more of it.  

But it does seem to me readibility will be a casualty.

And I fear decorator libraries working to make Python ingrown.

Art



From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 01:25:27 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 01:25:27 -0400
Subject: Stopping a socket.accept() method
In-Reply-To: <2o9mlbF8ff8rU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <2o9mlbF8ff8rU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <huCdnQEib_bV2L3cRVn-pQ@powergate.ca>

Tobias Pfeiffer wrote:

> I am writing a network game where the server runs in a console window. 
> The person who has opened the server shall be able to stop the process of 
> accepting new clients. By now, I am handling that like this:
> 
> while 1:
>     	try:
>     	    	bla = socket.accept()
>     	except KeyboardInterrupt:
>     	    	break
> socket.shutdown(2)
> 
> So the user can Ctrl+C and no more clients will be accepted. 
> Unfortunately, this doesn't work in Windows. So how can I give the user 
> the ability to quit the loop interactively? Any ideas?

Several options.

1. Ctrl-Break will work if it's a console program and Ctrl-C
doesn't.

2. You can use a non-blocking socket and select(), which
will allow a periodic wakeup to check a flag that is set
by whatever mechanism you want to tell the prog to stop.

3. Have another thread, which can detect the request to
stop, open a connection to the server thread's socket
so that it will wake up... then it can check a flag
and terminate as in 2.

-Peter


From gerson.kurz at t-online.de  Thu Aug 19 15:50:26 2004
From: gerson.kurz at t-online.de (Gerson Kurz)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:50:26 GMT
Subject: ANN: pyxe
Message-ID: <41250363.6193453@news.t-online.de>

pyxe is a small executable that will run python scripts on a machine
that doesn't have Python installed. Example: You have the following
hello.py:

def main():
    print "Hello, World"

You can create a binary distribution using 

pyxe /build hello

This will create a directory ./hello which contains all you need. Copy
all files to a host system and run the app using

pyxe hello

That's it. Note that your app must define a 

def main():

which is the main procedure to start from pyxe. There is one known
restriction, sys.argv[] doesn't get properly setup in pyxe
environment. You can fix this yourself: 

import sys
try:
    import cfrompy
    sys.argv = cfrompy.GetSysArgv()
except ImportError:
    assert sys.argv

Easy, eh? Requirements

- On the developer machine, you must have python23 installed.
- On the target machine, no requirements.
- Tested on Windows NT and Windows 2000. You are on your own with
other systems (such as XP, 03 etc.)

pyxe is free for any purpose whatsoever. 

Download: 
http://p-nand-q.com/python/pyxe.zip

includes the full sourcecode and a sample app in Python which actually
is the "SimpleHTTPServer" webserver ;) Enjoy

Homepage = this mail in fancy tags: 
http://p-nand-q.com/python/pyxe.html



From mwh at python.net  Fri Aug  6 07:09:40 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:09:40 GMT
Subject: Decorator syntax (was Re: PEP 318 - PyFIT comments)
References: <mailman.1162.1091660561.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnch2rs1.6ei.ressler@cheetah.jpl.nasa.gov>
	<1646998998.20040804190026@MailBlocks.com>
	<mailman.1168.1091667628.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<10h34ivio5s2c21@news.supernews.com>
	<m3pt65g4hb.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
	<10h4c5iicgv7k74@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <m3wu0csetn.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

This reply was a touch more hostile that I was expecting; if I've hit
some nerve, sorry, if not, err, can you relax a bit?

"John Roth" <newsgroups at jhrothjr.com> writes:

> "Michael Hudson" <mwh at python.net> wrote in message
> news:m3pt65g4hb.fsf at pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk...
>
> > Well, that would be because that's impossible :-)
> 
> I wish you'd have told me that before I did it. As I said in
> a prior post, I had to put a general metadata facility into
> PyFIT, and it's working quite nicely, thank you.

OK, poor choice of words.

[snippity]

> > What kind of metadata do you want?
> 
> Type and other declaration information for any identifiers
> that will be referenced in the FIT tests. Other information
> includes things like precision for floating point numbers,
> strings that are accepted as "true" or "false" for booleans,
> the subtype for lists and tuples, references to custom
> type adapters and other stuff.

So, you would like to write 

class Thiny(object):
    @attribute(type=float, precision=3)
    a = 1.23

?

I really don't see how you could make that work.  attribute() could
return something that was called with the dictionary being inserted
into, the string 'a' and the value 1.23, but... ick.  I don't think I
like that idea.  What would you find helpful?

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  ... but I'd rather not reinvent the wheel if I don't have to.  On
  the other hand, if the currently instantiated version of the wheel
  consists of a square rock covered with moss, I might as well just
  start fresh.                          -- Roy Smith, comp.lang.python


From mwilson at the-wire.com  Fri Aug 20 07:32:18 2004
From: mwilson at the-wire.com (Mel Wilson)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 07:32:18 -0400
Subject: esoteric question about dict keys
References: <mailman.2023.1092997148.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <CFeJBls/K/5W089yn@the-wire.com>

In article <mailman.2023.1092997148.5135.python-list at python.org>,
Alexis Roda <alexis.roda at urv.es> wrote:
>Now the question. In "normal" dicts its not possible to use dictionaries
>(nor other kinds of mutable objects) as keys, if I undersand correctly
>this is a technical requirement. If I write my own dictionary-like
>object, on wich the mutability of the keys is not a technical issue, is
>considered blasphemous the use of dicts as keys? For example, querying
>an SQL table can be partially modelled as a dictionary access:

   As I understand it, you can use any object as a key if
you give it a __hash__ method and an __eq__ or __cmp__
method.

   The problem with a mutable object as a dictionary key is
that it could change in value after it had been registered
as a key, and then you would no longer find the associated
data "where you left it".  You'd have to somehow present
another key with a hash the same as the original hash, and
which compared equal to the key value after mutation.

        Regards.        Mel.


From tdelaney at avaya.com  Thu Aug 26 19:51:44 2004
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy))
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:51:44 +1000
Subject: Proposal for removing self
Message-ID: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01DCFB9C@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

Andrea Griffini wrote:

> I remember Alex Martelli advocating in our italian newsgroup on
> C++ that C++ programmers should use "this->..." everywhere :-)

I evangelise this here (mainly for Java code these days, but close
enough). Unfortunately, I don't seem to be able to convince anyone else
:(

Tim Delaney


From news at outbacklinux.com  Tue Aug 24 06:13:22 2004
From: news at outbacklinux.com (Adrian Casey)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:43:22 +0930
Subject: using pexpect to control python
References: <412b0b21$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>
Message-ID: <412b14c2@duster.adelaide.on.net>

Maurice LING wrote:

> I know this might sounds wierd but I'm wondering if I can use pexpect or
> os.popen3 function to invoke and control python interpreter to make it
> act like a python interpreter in python?
> 
> maurice

Yes, should be possible.  I have used tcl expect to call other expect
scripts successfully in the past.  You can use pexpect to control any
command-line tool.

What are you trying to achieve?



From indrek.kruusa at tuleriit.ee  Fri Aug  6 18:42:56 2004
From: indrek.kruusa at tuleriit.ee (Indrek Kruusa)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 01:42:56 +0300
Subject: Importance of C# (was Re: IronPython-0.6 is now available!)
In-Reply-To: <9418be08.0407292114.129c856f@posting.google.com>
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>	<ce9cp3$g39$1@bagan.srce.hr>
	<5dydnZSDZaARoZXcRVn-ug@powergate.ca>	<gmint1-db3.ln1@lairds.us>
	<9418be08.0407292114.129c856f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <41140970.1050208@tuleriit.ee>

Elbert Lev wrote:

>C# IS a good language and .NET is a very good environment. Recently I
>had to write a little program. "one of a kind", "throw away". It took
>2.5 hours to finish the proto. Worked fine, but would requere night to
>run. Had to rewrite in... C++ or C#. Having the proto in Python, C#
>program was written almost as fast as Python's one. The run finishhed
>in 1 hour.
>  
>
A little comparison of C#, perl and python here (Speed test in menu):

http://www.tuleriit.ee/progs/

rgds,
Indrek



From alanmk at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 12 09:00:40 2004
From: alanmk at hotmail.com (Alan Kennedy)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:00:40 +0100
Subject: jython and java exceptions
In-Reply-To: <cfficr$293o$1@ns.felk.cvut.cz>
References: <slrnch2dqk.1h3.gregor.jan@ins1.opera.com>
	<g74Rc.24553$Z14.7458@news.indigo.ie>
	<cfcs7u$1ajq$1@ns.felk.cvut.cz>
	<4_nSc.24773$Z14.7584@news.indigo.ie>
	<cfd9ss$1g8q$1@ns.felk.cvut.cz>
	<WVqSc.24784$Z14.7662@news.indigo.ie>
	<cfficr$293o$1@ns.felk.cvut.cz>
Message-ID: <SOJSc.24845$Z14.7647@news.indigo.ie>

[Jan Gregor]
> All tests passed ok, but problem is still there. I didn't mentioned that
> mysql works fine.
> 
> My system is debian, something between woody and testing version. At
> home I have similiar debian upgraded moved so far from  potato to woody
> to sarge - same behaviour.
> 
> Application runs from command line by 'jython TextConsole.py'. Jython is
> version 2.1, running on java 1.4.2_05 (at home 1.4.1). PostgreSQL
> (7.4.3) and jdbc driver (as jython) from debian testing distribution.

I have one more thing to suggest, and that only applies if you are
"embedding", i.e. calling jython created classes from java, as opposed
to calling java classes from jython.

If you are embedding, then you are initializing the jython runtime
yourself, as opposed to having jython do that for you. In these cases,
names of java packages are not always picked up from the jython package
cache (although the class definitions are picked up if the jar is
present on the classpath).

Try adding a line like this to the top of your jython module

import sys ; sys.add_package('com.sybase.jdbc2.jdbc')

This can also be done outside jython, in the java embedding environment,
through a PySystemState object, as described here

http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=3747282&forum_id=5586

If that doesn't help, I'm afraid I'll be too busy for the next few days
to help out, though there are other people here who might be able to
contribute.

The day I've been waiting for for 7 years has finally arrived: proof
that the US retail milk supply is contaminated with a bacterium known as
Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis. I expect to be very
busy with this, especially if the US media reacts to the story the same
way that the British and Irish media did. If you see an article on
paratuberculosis and Crohn's Disease in the media in the next few days,
you'll be happy to know that python is an essential part of the
management of two of the main related web sites: www.crohns.org and
www.paratuberculosis.org

More info on paratuberculosis in US retail food from

http://www.johnes.org/newsfiles/109216471862392.html

my-world-is-tumbling-ly y'rs

-- 
alan kennedy
------------------------------------------------------
email alan:              http://xhaus.com/contact/alan


From max at alcyone.com  Thu Aug 12 18:49:32 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:49:32 -0700
Subject: decorator syntax polling suggestion
References: <d11dcfba.0408121252.7690a43a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <411BF3FC.71051A6F@alcyone.com>

Steven Bethard wrote:

> The poll, as stated, asked voters to vote for the syntax suggestion
> they liked the /most/.  Some of the conclusions people are trying to
> draw from it are what syntaxes people liked the /least/.  This is
> probably not the right conclusion to be drawing from the poll that was
> given.

That's certainly true (after all, the one with the fewest votes could
actually be everyone's _second_ favorite choice!), but I don't think
it's the most serious problem with the accuracy of the poll.  The
problem is that since it's an unofficial poll, and it's not clear that
Guido will give much credence to it at all, there is really no incentive
for people who are happy, or at least satisfied, with the current
decorator syntax to vote in order to express their approval.  Now,
that's probably true in an official vote as well, but it's probably much
more strongly the case here, where there's not even any good indication
that the poll will be paid attention to, and it hasn't been commissioned
by any entity actually in charge of making the final decision.

So only people who are dissastisfied with the proposal are likely to
vote, and indeed that seems to be the case.  Furthermore, perhaps the
only case where the results of the poll might raise eyebrows would be if
there were a landslide, so to speak, but a landslide is going to be far
more indicative of the poll being horribly biased, rather than it
showing any real intentions of the community (and I'd certainly claim
that based on the initial reactions of people to the decorator syntax --
lots of people expressed their support; they've just been drowned out by
proposal after proposal after proposal).

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ My long is strong enough, you know / Strong enough to let you go
    -- Xscape


From twanger at bluetwanger.de  Tue Aug 10 09:01:18 2004
From: twanger at bluetwanger.de (Markus Bertheau)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:01:18 +0200
Subject: Multiple inheritance with a common base class
In-Reply-To: <Xns95418AB04D977duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
References: <1092137872.2624.16.camel@dicaprio.akademie1.de>
	<mailman.1439.1092140352.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Xns95418AB04D977duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <1092142873.2624.43.camel@dicaprio.akademie1.de>

? ???, 10.08.2004, ? 14:38, Duncan Booth ?????:

> Well of course it outputs 0 twice. That's because after LeafA initialised  
> CommonBase, and set its value to 3 you then reinitialised it from LeafB and 
> set the value back to 0.

Thanks for the explanation, Heiko too.

> Using super will ensure that you get a reliable chain of method calls. In 
> this case it means that Multi.__init__ calls LeafA.__init__ which calls 
> LeafB.__init__ which then calls CommonBase.__init__. Note that LeafA 
> propogates the call to LeafB even though LeafA has no knowledge of the 
> existence of LeafB.

That is what I needed to know. Thanks. It should probably be noted in
the paragraph about multiple inheritance.

(CommonBase has to be a new style class for python <= 2.3)

Thanks

-- 
Markus Bertheau <twanger at bluetwanger.de>



From enjoylife_95135 at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 14 22:45:50 2004
From: enjoylife_95135 at hotmail.com (enjoylife_95135)
Date: 14 Aug 2004 19:45:50 -0700
Subject: compiling python 2.3.4 with command line editing
Message-ID: <864c2cd6.0408141845.3f50a3d5@posting.google.com>

Hi,
   I'm running RH9 on my laptop. It comes with the Python 2.2.2 RPM.
Its cool because when I run the interpreter, I can use command line
history.

   I need to upgrade, so I downloaded and compiled Python 2.3.4. Very
cool, spiffy etc, but the interpreter doesn't allow for command line
editing, i.e. I can't type <ctrl-P> and go to the previous command.

    How do I enable that?

Thanks!
S


From mcfletch at rogers.com  Fri Aug  6 11:33:05 2004
From: mcfletch at rogers.com (Mike C. Fletcher)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 11:33:05 -0400
Subject: Queue qsize = unreliable?
In-Reply-To: <1091805850.15192.12.camel@localhost>
References: <1091805850.15192.12.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <4113A4B1.6040900@rogers.com>

James R. Saker Jr. wrote:

>I see per pydoc that Queue.Queue()'s .qsize is allegedly unreliable:
>
>     |  qsize(self)
>     |      Return the approximate size of the queue (not reliable!).
>
>Any thoughts on why this is unreliable (and more curiously, why it would
>be put in there as an unreliable function?) Rather than roll my own
>threaded fifo class, it would seem prudent to use Python's built-in
>Queue but the warning signs on a rather necessary function seem curious.
>  
>
I would imagine that there is the potential for an item to be added or 
consumed during the running of the qsize method, or between the 
completion of the running of the qsize method and the op-codes which 
deal with the result.

That is, what you're getting is the size of the queue from a few 
milliseconds ago, which may have *no* relationship to the current size.  
It is "unreliable" in the sense that you shouldn't do something like "if 
q.qsize(): q.pop()"  if you will fail when q.pop() blocks with an empty 
queue.  It's useful in cases where you're trying to see how large a 
large queue is, but it's not something you want to be mucking about with 
to try to create new low-level thread-safe primitives.

Tim, of course, would know better, but that's always been my interpretation.

Have fun,
Mike

________________________________________________
  Mike C. Fletcher
  Designer, VR Plumber, Coder
  http://www.vrplumber.com
  http://blog.vrplumber.com



From tim.hochberg at ieee.org  Thu Aug 26 12:54:51 2004
From: tim.hochberg at ieee.org (Tim Hochberg)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:54:51 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <cgl4l0$336$1@sea.gmane.org>

Alex Martelli wrote:
> Robert Brewer <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote:
> 
> 
>>This is a call for all who wish to sign the proposal, either for,
>>against, or abstaining. Please sign by either posting on
>>comp.lang.python (replying to this is fine), or sending email to

For.

I also have a weak preference for 'per' over 'using', FWIW. The 
shortness of 'per' is one virtue. Another is that, because it's slightly 
obscure, it may be easier to indoctrinate users that 'per...def' is the 
correct order, not 'def...per'. For me at least it's 'obvious' that if 
'using...def' works then so should 'def...using', which of course it 
can't. The order is amenable to memorization, but I still anticipate 
more thinkos of this type from using than from per. On the downside, per 
may be extremely obscure to those that are neither native speakers of 
English or one of the romance languages.

-tim



> For.
> 
> I wish we'd use a better keyword than 'using' which would have a
> bazillion other possible and useful future interpretations.  Of the
> possible keywords mentioned on the site, several (by, per, through, via)
> appear better to me, and I'd particularly love the three-letter ones as
> they'd align well with 'def' -- my own preference would be 'per'.
> 
> However, I suspect it's too late to submit J2 with anything but 'using'
> and I'd rather have J2 with 'using' than the pie-before-def thingy, so,
> here's my "tactical" FOR vote:-).
> 
> 
> Alex



From koko9991 at compuserve.de  Sun Aug 22 05:00:27 2004
From: koko9991 at compuserve.de (Konrad Koller)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:00:27 GMT
Subject: SciTE as editor for Python: No print formatting under LINUX.
References: <4124ad63.349803125@news.compuserve.de>
	<GgaVc.1652$F7.318@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <41285ca5.591276625@news.compuserve.de>

How is print formatting determined under LINUX (PLAT_GTK)?

Neil wrote:
>   On Windows, the same API is used for drawing to the screen and printer so
>SciTE performs printing itself. GTK+ doesn't provide a printing API so SciTE
>calls an external application, with the default being a2ps set by
>command.print.*=a2ps "$(FileNameExt)"
>
Thank you very much for your valuable hint. I could try to add
appropriate options to a2ps, but to fulfill my formatting demands I
prefer to write a short Python program for printing (only for Linux).
Nevertheless SciTE remains my favorite tool for developments with
Python.

Cheers Konrad
>



From eppstein at ics.uci.edu  Thu Aug 12 13:35:02 2004
From: eppstein at ics.uci.edu (David Eppstein)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 10:35:02 -0700
Subject: PEP318
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<20040812090056.00001e31@titan>
	<7ttmh0t8c3cogtbhhnp1ohqu8b51pda461@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <eppstein-09AC84.10350212082004@news.service.uci.edu>

In article <7ttmh0t8c3cogtbhhnp1ohqu8b51pda461 at 4ax.com>,
 Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:

> foo=staticmathed(foo).
> 
> That is the universal langauge for transformations.  And when we try
> to explain to anybody what it is that @decorator means, we go back to
> the pseudo code that is in fact the existing syntax.
> 
> I guess I am mystified what it is that is perceived to have been
> gained ... by moving magic outside the function block to the top of a
> function in lieu of expressive code outside the function block at the
> bottom of the function.

Not having to write the function name three times?  If it's just foo, 
that would be one thing, but have you seen the PyObjC examples?

Also, it's not in the Zen of Python, but maybe declarative is better 
than imperative?

-- 
David Eppstein
Computer Science Dept., Univ. of California, Irvine
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/


From nzanella at cs.mun.ca  Wed Aug 18 18:13:42 2004
From: nzanella at cs.mun.ca (Neil Zanella)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 15:13:42 -0700
Subject: _Re: singleton (newbie)
Message-ID: <b68d2f19.0408181413.70f2a91b@posting.google.com>

Hello,

Is this the correct way to code multi-instance singleton in Python?
It seems to do the trick for me but I appreciate any criticism as I
am somewhat new to Python.

Thanks,

Neil

#!/usr/bin/python

class B:
  x = 0
  y = 1
  def foo(): print B.x
  foo = staticmethod(foo)
  def bar(): print B.y; B.y += 1
  bar = staticmethod(bar)

if __name__ == "__main__":
  B.foo()
  B.bar()
  B.foo()
  B.bar()
  B.bar()


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 24 00:54:50 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 00:54:50 -0400
Subject: Dr. Dobb's Python-URL! - weekly Python news and links (Aug 23)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2257.1093319591.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <cgdfku$svs$1@lairds.us>
	<mailman.2257.1093319591.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <L8SdnetkCsQ8VLfcRVn-vA@powergate.ca>

Anthony Baxter wrote:

> (Hell, this entire discussion is now
> pretty much based on subjective or aesthetic judgements).

Excellent!  If that's true, it really has reached the stage
where it's ready for the BDFL's pronouncement.  Having the
slaves do all the hard work and having the BDFL only have
to weigh the subjective and aesthetic issues is probably
exactly how the process should work, and should still
result in a Python that is a consistent and coherent whole. **

-Peter

** Words like "slaves" and any phrasing above that might
seem offensive should be interpreted entirely in a light-
hearted manner for purposes of this posting. :-)


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Wed Aug  4 14:54:53 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 14:54:53 -0400
Subject: Mucking with the calling scripts namespace (For a good reason, 
 honest!)
In-Reply-To: <e08cd05f.0408041038.3b884721@posting.google.com>
References: <e08cd05f.0408020727.15ce4356@posting.google.com>
	<rJudnRiTPvRB8JPcRVn-gw@comcast.com>
	<e08cd05f.0408031120.4eb60a7b@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408031540350.10945-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<e08cd05f.0408041038.3b884721@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408041445550.14974-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu>

On 4 Aug 2004, Doug Rosser wrote:

> To add the references I'm looking for, I'm going to do something like:
> 
> for server in myTest.servers:
>     exec server.iniLabel +"="+ server in globaldict
> 
> The code hasn't been debugged...caveat emptor...

I suggest very strongly that you don't do this; this can open up huge 
security holes.  Say 'server.iniLabel' is equal to 'import os; 
os.system('rm -rf /'); foo': Danger Can Happen!

Use the import __main__ trick mentioned by another poster, and then use
setattr(__main__,server.iniLabel,server) to inject the values into the
__main__ namespace.  But beware!  This could cause bugs, too (if
server.iniLabel is the same as the name of a builtin or one of your
functions).  A dictionary (as you are considering) is the safest way to
go.



From olivier.parisy at free.fr  Mon Aug  9 09:26:05 2004
From: olivier.parisy at free.fr (Olivier Parisy)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 15:26:05 +0200
Subject: Exceptions as a Control Structure
In-Reply-To: <dOadnX1nRauy5YrcRVn-gw@powergate.ca>
References: <411775aa$0$17867$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<dOadnX1nRauy5YrcRVn-gw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <41177b65$0$17857$626a14ce@news.free.fr>

Peter Hansen wrote:

> In Python, very little is frowned upon solely for efficiency
> reasons.  There are some examples, including using +=
> repeatedly to grow a string, and some fields where efficiency
> is of course critical, but in Python one almost always looks
> for the most pragmatic approach (which is often the most
> elegant, too, for some people's definition of elegant)
> rather than obsessing about speed.

I understand this. That's one of the reasons I am learning
Python (I am more interested in improving my development time
than my programs' execution time).


>> Are exceptions
>> considered as reasonable control structures, or is
>> StopIteration alone of its kind ?
> 
> 
> Catching an exception is considered a reasonable approach
> to flow control for various problems.  One, for example,
> is in deeply nested loops, where rather than going out of
> one's way to avoid exceptions in favour of a flag and lots
> of awkward testing, one just raises a custom exception
> (or perhaps a standard one) and catches it outside the
> loops.

OK. Definitely not something I'd do in C++.

> Exceptions are also used by some as a mechanism for
> returning information from subroutines, though it's
> very likely the information will still be considered
> "exceptional" in some way (think of it as an out-of-band
> mechanism for returning special info).

Do you have some example of this in the standard library ?

> While some people object on stylistic grounds (or even
> performance ones, in some cases) to such things, you
> will likely find that exceptions are thrown around
> by Python programmers more readily than you are used to.

That's what I wanted to know. OK.

> Note also that in many cases other than algorithmic
> complexity, what you have learned about efficiency in
> C++ should be considered suspect info when it comes
> to Python.  Function calls, for example, are much more
> expensive in Python than in C++ because of the time
> required to set up the call frame.  Exceptions, on the
> other hand, are as I recall much more efficient.

So I suppose I just won't concern myself with efficiency
questions and concentrate on prope style, then.

> Some Google Group searches in c.l.p would probably
> lead to many past discussions of these things.

I must admit I probably didn't do my homework...
BTW, thanks for your reactivity !

Regards,
Olivier.



From martindemello at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 25 08:37:46 2004
From: martindemello at yahoo.com (Martin DeMello)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:37:46 GMT
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<m2pt5fmqky.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
Message-ID: <uK%Wc.213074$gE.193548@pd7tw3no>

Dan Sommers <me at privacy.net> wrote:
 
> If list.sort returned the sorted list, how many lists would there be
> after this code executed?
> 
>     original_list = a_function_that_returns_a_list( )
>     sorted_list = original_list.sort( )

One - sorted_list would be a reference to the (now sorted) original
list. The newbie problem could be solved by having <verb> and <verbed>
versions of each destructive method - i.e. list.sort() to sort the list
in-place and return it, and list.sorted() to return a new, sorted list,
and experienced users could chain methods and all that other good stuff.

martin


From albalmer at att.net  Mon Aug 30 13:15:42 2004
From: albalmer at att.net (Alan Balmer)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:15:42 -0700
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4dyXc.25792$Ot3.22106@twister.nyc.rr.com>
	<878yc0ucyl.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<cgnr8l$egb$1@nntp.webmaster.com>
	<87hdqorqd9.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>
Message-ID: <a3o6j0lbcje3rn7hqu9l4hdf9n5b7sjn4l@4ax.com>

On 28 Aug 2004 03:41:22 +0200, Pascal Bourguignon
<spam at mouse-potato.com> wrote:

>>     I don't follow you at all. I think you'll find the most useful, 
>> meaningful complaints about, say, a Ford Explorer from the people who drive 
>> one every day.
>
>I'd expect to get these complaints indeed from people who drove it,
>but I'd be puzzled if they'd continued to drive it every day.

Not me. I'd just assume that they couldn't afford to switch vehicles
whenever they had a complaint.

-- 
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
removebalmerconsultingthis at att.net


From a at b.com  Wed Aug 18 03:10:59 2004
From: a at b.com (wonder)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:10:59 +0800
Subject: Retrieve current webpage url.
Message-ID: <cfv12k$1eu8$2@news.hgc.com.hk>

Dan Greenblatt wrote:

 > wonder wrote:
 >
 >> Hi,
 >>
 >> How can I pass the url of the current webpage link to a python 
script in   html?
 >>
 >> thanks
 >> sam
 >
 >
 > are you using a python script as a helper application?


yeah, sort of. I m building a html page that will call a python script 
by passing it the current URL of the webpage. The html page will be 
opened by any web user with any web browser.

thanks
sam


From peter at engcorp.com  Wed Aug  4 08:01:05 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 08:01:05 -0400
Subject: converting to string
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1115.1091604487.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <41108A2E.7030507@mail.usyd.edu.au>
	<mailman.1115.1091604487.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <g5adnbQQmY6ZTY3cRVn-iQ@powergate.ca>

Gandalf wrote:

> Ajay Brar wrote:
>> how do i go about converting a Python object or tuple to a string.
> 
> For special cases you can find a more efficient solution.For example, 
> for tuples of integers,
> you can write a C extension that allocates a big string and copies every 
> int object into 4 bytes
> in the string. That would be more efficient.

A C extension?  You mean like this? :

 >>> s = (1, 55, 109, 2000, 65535)
 >>> import struct
 >>> struct.pack('%si' % len(s), *s)
'\x01\x00\x00\x007\x00\x00\x00m\x00\x00\x00\xd0\x07\x00\x00\xff\xff\x00\x00'

<wink>

-Peter


From cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca  Mon Aug 23 17:53:34 2004
From: cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca (David M. Cooke)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:53:34 -0400
Subject: 100 % portable ?
References: <rp_Vc.221989$xO.10939509@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<sl1nv1-7jm.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<TkpWc.223279$3C7.10910854@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
Message-ID: <qnkpt5hseqp.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>

At some point, Vent d'Est - East Wind <po-yung.liu at pandora.be> wrote:

>>     http://dotamatic.sf.net
>>     http://bitpim.org
>> Both are open source so you can see for yourself.  Both use the
>> clipboard, do printing, have online help, are distributed so
>> that the user doesn't need Python on their machine already etc.
>> Roger
>
> i see your website , but i see for mac os x you using cocoa interfacing
> i don't understand isnt WXpython from WXwindow and have in all system
> same apparence ?
>
> same for linux i see a like kde 2 interfacing using
>
> seems each you use each interface of each system
> (and not just one for every system)
>
> is that only using wxpython or add some other graphic toolkit port and
> using cocoa , kde interface ?

I think you've missed the point of wxWidgets/wxPython: it uses native
widgets on each platform. On OS X, it uses Aqua widgets; on Linux, QT
or GTK, on Windows, native Windows widgets.

So, you're not going to get the same appearence on different
platforms (which is a good thing; I don't want to use something that
looks like Windows on a Mac).

-- 
|>|\/|<
/--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
|David M. Cooke
|cookedm(at)physics(dot)mcmaster(dot)ca


From peufeu at free.fr  Mon Aug  2 12:04:50 2004
From: peufeu at free.fr (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Pierre-Fr=E9d=E9ric_Caillaud?=)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 18:04:50 +0200
Subject: Strange timing data for list.pop()
References: <roy-57B296.13170501082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<cMedndDr79XOyZPcRVn-gA@giganews.com>
	<roy-AF83E2.11241502082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <opsb34acqp1v4ijd@musicbox>


> Of course it was a bad experimental setup.  I didn't measure what I set
> out to measure.  But, I did measure something interesting, and I'm
> trying to figure out what it was.

	That's how some great scientific discoveries were made ;)


From Symantec_AntiVirus_for_SMTP_Gateways at nlmof.navy.mil  Wed Aug 11 04:37:29 2004
From: Symantec_AntiVirus_for_SMTP_Gateways at nlmof.navy.mil (Symantec_AntiVirus_for_SMTP_Gateways at nlmof.navy.mil)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:37:29 GMT
Subject: Content violation
Message-ID: <20040811083736.6C9D01E4002@bag.python.org>

Content violation found in email message.

From: python-list at python.org
To: dougherty at nlmof.navy.mil

File(s): message.scr

Matching filename: *.scr




From artur_spruce at yahoo.com  Sat Aug  7 05:58:07 2004
From: artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR)
Date: 7 Aug 2004 02:58:07 -0700
Subject: How do you feel ?
References: <mailman.940.1087222870.6949.python-list@python.org>
	<mailman.1320.1091837963.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b840abf4.0408070158.643fbcd2@posting.google.com>

Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> A bit off topic.

Not at all, in my view.

> I just wondered what was your feeling when you were coding with Python. 
> I have beebn coding with different languages and the only that has given 
> me the will to invent or to be creative has been Python. Python allows 
> me not to focus on the complexity of the language itself.

It's a lot of fun, rewarding, often giving instant gratification. I
can do some pretty complex stuff (at least from my point of view) in
short time, do it right and complete. I did some programming for fun
in C++ and Java, but only very simple tasks, worse and not really
better.

It's useful. I can do helper tools that I could live without but that
make my (professional or private) life easier.

It's interesting. I can learn new (to me) programming concepts, like
function currying. I tried to learn Perl, and after one useful script
done in five days, never got back to it. I tried Common Lisp, but
online tutorials are very basic, and online reference is hard to
navigate; I still don't know what "#" and "," mean. I tried Smalltalk
and loved it - it's approach to OO complements Python's in a very cool
way - but I'd need something better integrated with the system than
Squeak is.

I repeat, above all, it's a lot of fun.

> Of course, from time to time, I find something that is not clear to me 
> but indeed after a couple of research you find the information you were 
> looking for.

Yeah, sometimes you have to dig for it, like I had for the way to do
multiple keystroke bindings in Tkinter for the DiacriticalEditor
(http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/286155;
shameless self-advertisement), but chances are you'll find it or
someone on c.l.py will tell you.

> I love that language and above all, I love using it.

Same here.

> Sorry for this little spam but it is always good to acknowledge good 
> things and not only complaining when it doesn't work.

Like I said, it's no spam at all.

> Thanks the Python team.

Same from me,

AdSR


From mwilson at the-wire.com  Sat Aug  7 18:40:48 2004
From: mwilson at the-wire.com (Mel Wilson)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 18:40:48 -0400
Subject: an Image
References: <f9d01b73.0407271254.427a271a@posting.google.com>
	<18282ecb.0407282040.231e5766@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <wpVFBls/K7ue089yn@the-wire.com>

In article <18282ecb.0407282040.231e5766 at posting.google.com>,
mefjr75 at hotmail.com (M.E.Farmer) wrote:
>justin__devine at hotmail.com (JDevine) wrote in message news:<f9d01b73.0407271254.427a271a at posting.google.com>...
>> I am going through the painfull process of learning wxPython.  Sincer
>> there is nearly no documentation, I am learning from the demos.
>> Unfortunately, I have realized these demos do some specialized
>> importing and that all the imports are not applicable.  Specifially,
>> All I want to do now is insert a bmp I have drawn into a windows
>> application.  The image clases from the demos are completely
>> unexplanatory about how to do this.  The "images" module that is
>> imported has custom functions for calling a specific set of images
>> such as GetTest2Bitmap, which does not help me at all.  Please help me
>> understand this.

>Maybe this will help you.
>
># SimpleImage ver 1.0
># by M.E.Farmer Jr. 2003
># Utilizes the new wx namespace
># usage: python SimpleImage.py image.jpg
>[ ... ]
>    pix = wx.Image(sys.argv[1], wx.BITMAP_TYPE_ANY).ConvertToBitmap()
>[ ... ]
>    st = wx.StaticBitmap(frame, -1, pix, pos=(1,1),
>                         size=wx.Size(pix.GetWidth(),pix.GetHeight()))

   You can also with a little more difficulty write straight
to the window..  Below is a fragment from __init__ of a
wx.Frame descendant.  (It's straight from working code but I
haven't tested it independently.)


        w, h = self.GetClientSizeTuple()
        bmp = wx.EmptyBitmap (w, h)
        mdc = wx.MemoryDC()
        if bmp.LoadFile ("sweeper.bmp", wx.BITMAP_TYPE_BMP):
            mdc.SelectObject (bmp)
            wx.ClientDC (self).Blit (0,0, w,h, mdc, 0,0)


   The complication with such techniques is that you need to
coordinate a lot of different objects..  Frame, Bitmap, DC..
and look up the separate documentation on those guys.. to
get any work done.  Also not shown is the paint routine that
replays that Blit operation after an EVT_PAINT.  Just for
what it's worth because I was just working on this.

        Regards.    Mel.


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 11:22:39 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 01:22:39 +1000
Subject: [PATCH] RE: J2 decorator grammar
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408231458030.22879-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408231458030.22879-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082308223b26d021@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:05:27 +0100 (BST), Michael Sparks
<zathras at thwackety.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Aug 2004, Michael Sparks wrote:
> > 2 tests fail:
> >    * test_bsddb3
> >    * test_ossaudiodev

Don't worry about either of these - they fail on all sorts of random
platforms, unfortunately. (bsddb in particularly seems to be
particularly finicky to get right)

> >    * Produce patch for CVS version.
> In progress.

Good to hear. Of course, this is all part of the fiendish plot to
create more people familiar with the innards of Python - you too can
be a developer! <wink>

On a related note, I've not seen anyone step forward to do the same
work for any of the C varieties. If you[1] think that this is a
serious contender, then you need to step forward and do the work - a
lack of an implementation is almost certainly going to mean that it
won't be considered. See this thread for pointers to the SF entry that
lists the files changed for the @syntax - this is a good cheat-sheet
for implementation. This patch should be created against current-CVS.

[1] "you" is addressed in general, not to Michael

Anthony


From mensanator at aol.compost  Sun Aug 29 04:16:30 2004
From: mensanator at aol.compost (Mensanator)
Date: 29 Aug 2004 08:16:30 GMT
Subject: about presicion
References: <JN6dnW6HuNiU06zcRVn-pA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <20040829041630.28913.00001771@mb-m26.aol.com>

>Subject: Re: about presicion
>From: Peter Hansen peter at engcorp.com 
>Date: 8/28/04 10:31 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <JN6dnW6HuNiU06zcRVn-pA at powergate.ca>
>
>Ali wrote:
>
>> The decimal module comes with python 2.4? I have 2.3, :(, what do I do?
>
>The obvious answer is, well, obvious.  The real question is
>what's stopping you from upgrading?

I just tried it and found out it's not compatible with gmpy.
Of course, I wouldn't need gmpy to get big floats, but I
would then lose all the math functions like linear congruence
and modular inverse that my programs depend on.

So I, for one, will have to wait for the rest of the world to 
catch up to 2.4.


>
>-Peter




-- 
Mensanator
Ace of Clubs


From paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it  Sat Aug 21 13:07:11 2004
From: paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it (Paolo Veronelli)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 19:07:11 +0200
Subject: __metaclass__ and __author__ are already decorators
In-Reply-To: <cg7mo9$r8r$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <cg7mo9$r8r$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <4127813F.9020707@yahoo.it>



Paul Morrow wrote:
> Thinking about decorators, and looking at what we are already doing in 
> our Python code, it seems that __metaclass__, __author__, __version__, 
> etc. are all examples of decorators.  So we already have a decorator 
> syntax.  What is the compelling reason to invent a new one?  And if we 
> do, what's to become of the old one?

You are right ,if some __xxx__ (only __metaclass__ for now?) class 
attributes have deep meanings (not only a syntactical 
one(__lt__,__getitem__,....)) ,and many people suggest not to use them 
(probably there is something about a non pythonicity  of __metaclass__ 
in this behaviour) then it would be very nice to match this deepness 
against the decorator one ,at least using @
before class definitions if it's the case....


	Thanks for pointing out another unpythonicity. Paolino






From jerf at jerf.org  Tue Aug 24 16:11:26 2004
From: jerf at jerf.org (Jeremy Bowers)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:11:26 GMT
Subject: Late binding eval()?
References: <20040824142636721-0400@braeburn.themorgue.org>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.24.16.11.21.407964@jerf.org>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:25:54 +0000, Kevin Smith wrote:

> However, in my application, I'm getting an arbitrary expression 
> from the user.

How arbitrary? Using the various parsing packages, it is easy to set up a
math calculator with any features you want, for instance, if you just mean
"arbitrary math".

If you're worried about security, this is really the only safe way to do
it. If you aren't worried about security... then I don't know enough about
what you are doing to have any other suggestions, but I would point out in
the general case even the Python interpeter can't guess in advance what
variables will be used, thanks to the magic of "getattr" and friends.


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 29 20:28:30 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 20:28:30 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <loom.20040829T215249-650@post.gmane.org>
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgrecn$dgk$0$216.39.172.122@th
	<loom.20040829T215249-650@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <cgtsbe$7en$1@sea.gmane.org>

Steven Bethard wrote:
> Paul Morrow <pm_mon <at> yahoo.com> writes:
> 
>>Have you seen a significant number of cases where a function uses
>>__xxx__ names for local variables?  Have you seen any?
> 
> 
> Are there any examples currently of functions that use __xxx__ names in their 
> body at all?  I haven't seen this, but I haven't really looked...
> 
> STeve
> 

I've seen some that define a few of the pydoc variables (__author__, 
__version__, etc), although pydoc doesn't recognizes them there.  I 
remember reading a whitepaper on a web templating framework that made 
use of them too, where each function corresponded to an html tag and the 
__xxx__ variables controlled caching (memoizing), which database tables 
were involved, etc.

For classes and modules of course you'll see more examples of __xxx__ 
variables describing meta aspects of the class/module (__metaclass__, 
__future__, etc.), so it seems consistent that they could describe meta 
aspects of functions too.



From http  Sat Aug 21 21:35:23 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 18:35:23 -0700
Subject: Getting benifits of database transactions in an OO way?
References: <2oq8pmFdd2nfU1@uni-berlin.de> <7xk6vsklxm.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<2oqb54Fdj12nU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <7xu0uwlztw.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Leif K-Brooks <eurleif at ecritters.biz> writes:
> How woould begin_transaction() and finish_transaction() be
> implemented? They couldn't be simple wrappers for PostgreSQL
> transaction handling, since it's not very object-oriented (the whole
> connection has one transaction at a time).

Yes, if you want multiple concurrent transactions, you need separate
connections for them.


From agriff at tin.it  Wed Aug 18 16:35:58 2004
From: agriff at tin.it (Andrea Griffini)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:35:58 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <24f7i09bosogkov5lgmiehlun3l5oi01lf@4ax.com>

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:20:31 GMT, "Lucas Raab"
<pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote:

38.

Started around 15 with assembler (6502)

I'm very new to python, but so far I really like it.

Andrea


From jaydonnell at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 12:28:21 2004
From: jaydonnell at yahoo.com (Jay Donnell)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 09:28:21 -0700
Subject: urllib hangs
References: <a6fdfd6b.0408230902.2afc0e08@posting.google.com>
	<cgdaoh$1gn$01$1@news.t-online.com>
	<a6fdfd6b.0408231537.c2c5af2@posting.google.com>
	<tZOdnSAokOE9VbfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<a6fdfd6b.0408241006.6b5c4d65@posting.google.com>
	<jt6dnYJ8R-eH77DcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <a6fdfd6b.0408260828.61bdb56c@posting.google.com>

Apparently you don't know what exactly means ;)


From fumanchu at amor.org  Sun Aug 22 13:56:06 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 10:56:06 -0700
Subject: On consensus decision-making (was Re: Alternative decorator
	syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WEDONE?)
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E28@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Peter Hansen wrote:
> I suspect many of the J2 and C1 people would actually not "block"
> a decision to go with either one versus @pie.  I'm not sure
> how many people would like to block @pie or either or both of
> the other two options.  In the end, we already know that the
> final decision is (thankfully) made by the BDFL based on his
> own good judgement, so voting becomes less and less valuable
> at this stage.  (In consensus building, a "block" basically says
> that someone would refuse to support the community decision,
> while 100% consensus means no one blocks the decision even
> though some people may not feel it reflects their first choice.)

Well said.

FWIW, I have a "signatories" section on the proposal, both for and
against. More tomorrow.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl  Sat Aug  7 18:44:04 2004
From: jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl (Jarek Zgoda)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 22:44:04 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Decorators
References: <%A8Rc.50217$Vm1.1280580@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<roy-1C5AF5.18404707082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <cf3lvk$73v$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>

Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> pisze:

>> It seems desirable that we choose words which are as close as possible 
>> to their everyday usage.
> 
> On the other hand, it's desirable to pick words which have established 
> meanings in computer science too.  The concept of a "decorator" is 
> pretty well established.  The term has been used in GUI frameworks for 
> 10 or 15 years, and more recently has been enshrined in various pattern 
> collections.

In GUI frameworks it was used for other things IIRC. Also "decorator
pattern" in GOF means something different.

-- 
Jarek Zgoda
http://jpa.berlios.de/


From mark at deverter.net  Wed Aug 18 12:10:18 2004
From: mark at deverter.net (md)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:10:18 GMT
Subject: readlines()
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1880.1092844108.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1880.1092844108.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <KbLUc.507$xi6.311@fe2.texas.rr.com>

I am not sure which name is designating your source text (db1 or getdata 
?).  If it is 'getdata' then you will need to iterate over the file 
object to grab all of the lines.  Try this:

  for line in db1:
     (ip, mac) = string.split(line)
      print 'ip is ', ip
      run = 'dhcpacct --ip=%s  > tt1'
      os.system(run)
      getdata = open('tt1', 'r')
      data=[]
      for line in getdata.readlines():
	data.append(line)
      print 'data[0] is', data[0]
      print 'data[3] is', data[3]
      getdata.close()

Hope this helps,
Mark d.


Yong Wang wrote:
> Hi,
>    I use readlines() to read one data file. Python automatically parses the read contents
> into a list of lines. When I used list[0] to print out the 1st line, it is ok. When I use
> the list index 2 to print out the 2nd line , there is an error mesage. I only need one line of
> input data file in the middle of the file. For example, I have data file like: 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>           Timestamp: Sat Aug  7 11:14:57 AM
>     Adapter Address: 00:60:08:2A:C9:5A
>          IP Address: 165.91.10.244
>        Directory ID: 0675392c736079cfd81a55028df3cb43
>         Domain Name: bdanwood.dsl.tamu.edu
>     DHCP/NIM Action: lease renewed
>            Comments: 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>           Timestamp: Sat Aug  7 11:15:56 PM
>     Adapter Address: 00:60:08:2A:C9:5A
>          IP Address: 165.91.10.244
>       Directory ID: 0675392c736079cfd81a55028df3cb43
>         Domain Name: bdanwood.dsl.tamu.edu
>     DHCP/NIM Action: lease renewed
>            Comments: 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I have some codes:
>     .......
> for line in db1:
>    (ip, mac) = string.split(line)
>     print 'ip is ', ip
>     run = 'dhcpacct --ip=%s  > tt1'
>     os.system(run)
>     getdata = open('tt1', 'r')
>     data    = getdata.readlines()
>     print 'data[0] is', data[0]
>     print 'data[3] is', data[3]
>     getdata.close()
>  
> When run the codes, I got:
> data[0] is ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> data[3] is
> Traceback (innermost last):
>   File "com1", line 64, in ?
>     print 'data[3] is', data[3]
> IndexError: list index out of range
> 
>     How can I fix it ?
> 
>     Thanks,
> 
> 


From mwh at python.net  Fri Aug 13 07:39:54 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:39:54 GMT
Subject: [OT] Keyboard layout, was Re: PEP318
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cffdba$ko0$04$1@news.t-online.com>
	<Y+l*oRTrq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
	<roy-439B02.10321912082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<L-C*RvUrq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Message-ID: <m3y8kjmfli.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Sion Arrowsmith <siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:

> Roy Smith  <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> >Sion Arrowsmith <siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> >> As someone who's just started using a Mac for the first time(*),
> >> I'd like to add that it's not always plain-sailing on an English
> >> keyboard.
> >What's wrong with Mac keyboards?
> 
> No @, hence tangential relevance to PEP318 (and a point against
> pies, before or after the def). Unless you can remember it's on
> option-3.

Huh?  On *my* mac <wink> @ is shift-2 and # is option-3.  And I live
with the latter, and I type it far more often than anyone is ever
going to type @ for decorators...

Now, if someone would like to fix \ in place for the purposes of
LaTeX, then you're really talking!

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  <Erwin> I recompiled XFree 4.2 with gcc 3.2-beta-from-cvs with -O42
          and -march-pentium4-800Mhz and I am sure that the MOUSE
          CURSOR is moving 5 % FASTER!
                                                -- from Twisted.Quotes


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 01:04:11 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 01:04:11 -0400
Subject: Flython?
In-Reply-To: <30260531.0408131856.5ef3b0d3@posting.google.com>
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
	<411cbcb1$0$3894$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>
	<W9qdnWhf8u7MI4HcRVn-ow@powergate.ca>
	<30260531.0408131856.5ef3b0d3@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <sMednfL4zqTR3b3cRVn-rA@powergate.ca>

simo wrote:

> There's a few libraries for making SVG files in PHP, so there may be
> Python versions too, but if you want ActionScript then I guess you're
> determined to go with Flash instead.....

Well, SVG and ActionScript have very little, if anything, in
common.  On the other hand SVG has much overlap with the rest
of the "Flash" system (taken as a nebulous whole), and when
supplemented with Javascript, in systems that can handle that,
it starts becoming somewhat similar in many ways.

On the other hand, so far I haven't seen signs that SVG
support has advanced enough to really be on par with the
capabilities (mostly in terms of speed and simplicity) of
the little bit of Flash/ActionScript that interests me.

My personal goal with this (and I believe Dan's as well)
is to be able to create GUI software using ActionScript
to write (roughly) the "view" and "controller" portions,
with the back end ("model") implemented elsewhere (i.e.
on a server) with Python.

Why?  Well, consider the alternatives.  D/HTML plus
Javascript gives you the same basic structure, but at
the cost of a mostly crappy kind of interface which
violates all kinds of UI conventions, feels awkward,
often runs slowly, and is a bitch to construct and
maintain.

Something like wxPython is pretty good for fixing most
of that, but then you actually have to install software
on the client machines, which is pretty much the thing
you want to avoid when you are trying to do client/server.

The idea is *not* to do pretty animations ala JibJab.com
but "plain old GUI software" (POGS, to steal from Bell
and coin a phrase at the same time).  SVG really isn't
up to the task (yet), and even if it is I suspect there
may be really serious performance issues for some time
to come.  Flash has a compact bytecode, while SVG comes
as XML.  Need I say more?

-Peter


From uche at ogbuji.net  Mon Aug  9 13:53:55 2004
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 10:53:55 -0700
Subject: processing XHTML1.1 documents with xml.sax
References: <mailman.1321.1091845385.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <d116fbae.0408090953.1484c943@posting.google.com>

webworldL at yahoo.com wrote in message news:<mailman.1321.1091845385.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> Has anybody had any luck processing XHTML1.1 documents with xml.sax?
> Whenever I try it, python loads the W3C DTD from the top, then crashes
> saying that there's an error in the external DTD.
> All I need to do is rip through a bunch of XHTML documents and extract
> some data, does anybody know a quick way to do this without sax making
> outgoing network connections and fussing with DTDs?
> 
> BTW, the code to reproduce the error if anybody cares:
> below is a document 'hello.html' produced by the W3C's Amaya:
> 
> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1"?>
> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN"
>       "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd">
> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
> <head>
>   <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
> charset=iso-8859-1" />
>   <title>Hello  World</title>
>   <meta name="generator" content="amaya 8.5, see
> http://www.w3.org/Amaya/" />
> </head>
> 
> <body>
> <p>hello world!</p>
> </body>
> </html>
> 
> and the script:
> 
> import xml.sax.handler
> xml.sax.parse("hello.html",
>     xml.sax.handler.ContentHandler()
>               )
> 
> the error:
> 
> SAXParseException:
> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/DTD/xhtml-framework-1.mod:89:0:
> error in processing external entity reference
> 
> will be thrown.

Ouch.  I took a brief look at this and expat has a problem here.  I
should note that there are few more hairy stress tests of DTD
conformance than XHTMLMOD (the basis of XHTML 1.1).

Using the most recent expat, 1.95.8, something weird happens:

[uogbuji at borgia xmlwf]$ xmlwf -p ~/foo.xhtml
/home/uogbuji/http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd: No such
file or directory
/home/uogbuji/foo.xhtml:3:52: error in processing external entity
reference

It's a little confused about the fact that http:// starts a URL.  I
tried as much fiddling as I had time to, but I think there's little
recourse but for you to submit a bug report to the expat project:

http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=10127&atid=110127

And change your DTD to use XHTML 1.0 (which *does* work with expat)
rather than 1.1

Good luck.


-- 
Uche Ogbuji                                    Fourthought, Inc.
http://uche.ogbuji.net    http://4Suite.org    http://fourthought.com
Decomposition, Process, Recomposition -
http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2004/07/28/py-xml.html
Perspective on XML: Steady steps spell success with Google -
http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp?id=9663
Managing XML libraries - http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp?id=9160
Commentary on "Objects. Encapsulation. XML?" -
http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp?id=9090
Harold's Effective XML -
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-think25.html
A survey of XML standards -
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-stand4/


From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 16 01:23:49 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 00:23:49 -0500
Subject: Python secure?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1705.1092625838.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk><ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com><ZKRTc.3710$bJ2.23892@news1.mts.net>	<cforh6$qiv$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<mailman.1705.1092625838.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2xXTc.3775$bJ2.24876@news1.mts.net>

Terry Reedy wrote:
> ... compiled C can be terribly insecure relative to
> Python.  C has dangerous functions like strcpy() which, if used with
> external input, can make a program subject to buffer overrun exploits that
> can do explosive damage.

But this doesn't make C an insecure language.  No language is either 
secure nor insecure.  It's what the programer does with it that matters.


From chris.cavalaria at free.fr  Mon Aug 23 15:14:42 2004
From: chris.cavalaria at free.fr (Christophe Cavalaria)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:14:42 +0200
Subject: PEP318: radical notion
References: <Xns954E72EC48C5Earienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>
Message-ID: <412a4222$0$293$626a14ce@news.free.fr>

Arien Malec wrote:

> Apologies for feeding the fire, when we are rallying around a consensus,
> but I've been concerned about the clash between syntax and semantics, and
> I've finally reached a mini-epiphany:
> 
> The problem with PEP318 is that it is too powerful, and tries to do too
> much. It is a sledgehammer for attacking three problems:
> 
> 1) Metadata, a la Java and C#
> 2) class & static method defs
> 3) Arbitrary post-definitional transformations of functions.
> 
> (where 2 is a special frequent use case that's part of 3).
> 
> We have ueber-powerful semantics (implementing 3), trying to solve
> problems with very different semantics (e.g., 1).
> 
> OK, that's what I know. Here's a proprosal, that may or may not work,
> because my knowledge of metaclass programming is only sketchy:
> 
> 1) Make PEP318 *only* implement problem (1). That is, create sematics for
> defining and retrieving function/method/class metadata
> 2) Create a new default metaclass that uses metadata for class/static
> method definitions to perform the necessary class/staticmethod
> transformations. Perhaps use this metaclass as default in 2.4 only via a
> "from __future__ import foo".
> 3) Leave any arbitrary transformations to be implemented via custom
> metaclasses -- these metaclasses will have access to the custom metadata
> to trigger method def transformations.
> 
> Arien

Unfortunately for you, you can use decorators on normal functions and not
only on member functions. It rules out any metaclass based implementation.


From erik at heneryd.com  Thu Aug 12 06:57:51 2004
From: erik at heneryd.com (Erik Heneryd)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:57:51 +0200
Subject: Capturing repeating group matches in regular expressions
In-Reply-To: <20040811235834.45616.qmail@cyberdyne.co.mars>
References: <mailman.1489.1092220861.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<20040811235834.45616.qmail@cyberdyne.co.mars>
Message-ID: <411B4D2F.50606@heneryd.com>

James Collier wrote:
> Michael Hudson [ mwh at python.net ] writes:
> 
> 
>>James Collier <james.collier at xtra.co.nz> writes:
>>
>>
>>>Is it possible to capture the results of repeating group matches in
>>>the python regular expression module?
>>
>>Not easily; there's a small dicussion on python-dev at the moment
>>about this.  Erik Heneryd hacked up something that might be useful:
>>
>>http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/attachments/20040810/a5e602ab/structmatch.py
>>

Should be added that this is a hack in the true sense of the word.  I 
wouldn't use it for anything other than for what it was written - 
experimenting.


Erik


From __peter__ at web.de  Fri Aug  6 12:39:35 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 18:39:35 +0200
Subject: Default list parameter issue
References: <cf0c08$2n2$1@apollon.grec.isp.9tel.net>
Message-ID: <cf0c87$p1v$06$1@news.t-online.com>

Olivier Boudeville wrote:

> I do not understand why using an empty list as default parameter results
>   in such a different behaviour.

You are not alone.

http://www.python.org/doc/faq/general.html#why-are-default-values-shared-between-objects

Peter


From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 26 08:42:59 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:42:59 -0400
Subject: Converting hex string to an integer
In-Reply-To: <cgkkki$774$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
References: <412d9e18$0$22821$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>
	<cgkkki$774$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <sqmdnY4BTq5JR7DcRVn-qQ@powergate.ca>

Rick Holbert wrote:
> Derek Fountain wrote:
>>Given the character string "0x00A1B2C3" arriving at sys.argv[1] how do I
>>convert that to an integer which I can do some math on?
> 
> i = eval(sys.argv[1])

That's dangerous advice to a newbie if not qualified carefully.

Derek, "eval" could be the source of serious security problems
if you don't understand its power.  Specifically it should
almost never be used for input that comes from a user or
via the command line.  There is pretty much always another
and much better way to do the simple stuff like conversions
than to use eval.

For example, imagine if a malicious could feed your program this:

(on the Linux command line)

   $ myscript "__import_('os').system('rm -rf /')"

or the Windows version:

   C:\> myscript "__import_('os').system('deltree /y c:\*.*')"

Bye-bye filesystem... (don't run these examples!)

-Peter


From a at b.com  Mon Aug 16 21:55:36 2004
From: a at b.com (wonder)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:55:36 +0800
Subject: passing the url of the current webpage to python script
In-Reply-To: <cfqt42$6cbn$1@cgl.ucsf.edu>
References: <cfpodq$1nt0$1@news.hgc.com.hk> <cfqt42$6cbn$1@cgl.ucsf.edu>
Message-ID: <cfrq76$2r6u$2@news.hgc.com.hk>

Dan Greenblatt wrote:

> wonder wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>>
>> How can I pass the url of the current webpage link to a python script 
>> in   html?
>>
>> thanks
>> sam
> 
> are you using a python script as a helper application?

yeah, sort of. I m building a html page that will call a python script 
by passing it the current URL of the webpage. The html page will be 
opened by any web user with any web browser.

thanks
sam


From ellisjb at my-deja.com  Mon Aug 23 17:23:38 2004
From: ellisjb at my-deja.com (ellisjb at my-deja.com)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 14:23:38 -0700
Subject: Py2Exe and Threading
In-Reply-To: <81a41dd.0408231216.6f919ff4@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgdn8q$6h9@odah37.prod.google.com>

Lad wrote:
> Does anyone use Py2exe for a script that uses threading modul.
> In have a main thread and another in which I use smtplib to send
email
> while the main thread is running.
> Under Python it works well but after compilation into exe it hangs(
> freezes) in the thread where I send email with smtplib.

Sounds like you have a race condition that for whatever reason you're
lucky enough not to hit during interpretation.  Use appropriate locks;
I use py2exe on an application that uses many threads and have no
problems.

-Jonathan



From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Mon Aug 30 15:31:10 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 21:31:10 +0200
Subject: TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'NoneType' and
	'str'
References: <cgvtji$729@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040830ykno@bombur.uio.no>

[Brett C.]
> Set your environment 'CC' environment variable to gcc and it should go
> away.

[Martin Koekenberg]

How do I set this environmet variable ??
I don't have a lot of linux experience ;-)

[Brett C.]

> For Bourne-style shells (BASH, ZSH, etc.) ``export CC=gcc`` will do it
> for the current shell (won't save it for future use, that requires
> setting it in your shell's config file.

Nitpick: That works for bash and zsh - and therefore for Martin, since
he uses Linux - but not for plain non-Linux Bourne 'sh'.  The portable
Bourne way is

  CC=gcc; export CC

> For CSH style I think it is ``setenv CC gcc`` but I am not sure.

That's right.

And the standard way which works for both Bourne and CSH style, but for
just one command at a time (in this case ./configure), is

  env CC=gcc ./configure

-- 
Hallvard


From russblau at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 25 09:16:00 2004
From: russblau at hotmail.com (Russell Blau)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:16:00 -0400
Subject: Just a quick one
References: <cgi2qq$rvp$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <2p3hogFel3j8U1@uni-berlin.de>

"M. Clift" <noone at here.com> wrote in message
news:cgi2qq$rvp$1 at news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Hi,
>
> Just a quick one. I'm trying to call [Bob','One'] with this, but I keep
> getting 'unhashable'. I've tried various ' " and [ and can't get the thing
> to work. Any offers?

...

> nextName = {['Bob','One']:['Rita','Sue'],\
>               'Rita':['Mary','Sue',['Bob','One']],\
>               'Sue':['Rita','Mary',['Bob','One']],\
>               'Mary':['Sue','Rita']}

['Bob', 'One'] is a list.

You can't use a list as a dictionary key, because it is 'unhashable'.

Try ('Bob', 'One'), which is a tuple, instead.

See
http://www.python.org/doc/current/tut/node7.html#SECTION007400000000000000000
(the first paragraph in 5.4).


-- 
I don't actually read my hotmail account, but you can replace hotmail with
excite if you really want to reach me.




From gerrit.muller at embeddedsystems.nl  Mon Aug 23 02:30:09 2004
From: gerrit.muller at embeddedsystems.nl (Gerrit Muller)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 08:30:09 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl>
Message-ID: <cgc2ti$qq6$1@news.tue.nl>

Gerrit Muller wrote:
 >P.S.,
 >>
 >> a lot of people added other intersting datapoints: when they started
 >> programming and other languages used. I started around the age of 14,
 >> with HP table top machines (polish notation). Programming languages:
 >> Assemblers, Fortran, *Basic, *Pascal, C, Objective-C, C++. The most
 >> positive experiences were Sinclair QL-basic, Turbo Pascal, Objective-C
 >> and then a quantum leap towards Python.
 >>

I forgot to mention Java, this must be Freudian mistake

Gerrit


-- 
Gaudi systems architecting:
<http://www.extra.research.philips.com/natlab/sysarch/>



From news at titanic.co.uk  Mon Aug  2 15:19:07 2004
From: news at titanic.co.uk (Simon Faulkner)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 20:19:07 +0100
Subject: Python executable on Windows
In-Reply-To: <410e91ce$0$58816$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk>
References: <410e91ce$0$58816$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk>
Message-ID: <410e93a1$0$58815$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk>

Simon Faulkner wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I've written a fair bit of simple Python for Linux and have been asked 
> to write a program for win32.
> 
> Is it possible to write a program and add the Python interpreter so that 
> I just end up with a single .exe file for windows?
> 
> I know that it will be large but it will be simple!
> 
> TIA
> 
> Simon

I guess py2exe as in the thread above!  Doh...

Is it easy?

S


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sun Aug 15 23:10:30 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 23:10:30 -0400
Subject: Python secure?
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk><ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com><ZKRTc.3710$bJ2.23892@news1.mts.net>
	<cforh6$qiv$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <cfp8j7$uql$1@sea.gmane.org>


"M. Clift" <noone at here.com> wrote in message
news:cforh6$qiv$1 at newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> One thing has come up and that is when I spoke of secure
> I presumed that compiled  C source code software was secure
> and I was asking how did python compare to this.

I understand that you mean 'secure' in a personal sense of 'protecting my
source code'.  But I do want to mention that in a social sense of 'not
taking down the Internet', compiled C can be terribly insecure relative to
Python.  C has dangerous functions like strcpy() which, if used with
external input, can make a program subject to buffer overrun exploits that
can do explosive damage.  Hence the Blaster worm of Feb (?) 2003.  If
Microsoft had written SQL Server in Python (or employed better programmers
and/or security checks), I believe it could not have happened.

One lesson is that understanding the actual behavior of a C program may
require knowing and understanding the exact run time memory layout of code
and data, including 'hidden' items like each call frame's return address
pointer, added by the compiler rather than the programmer.  Virus and worm
writers understand this; many C programmers seem not to.  Python programs
are much easier to understand.

So your choice of language may partly depend on which kind of security is
most important to you -- which is what I believe others said in the
beginning.

Terry J. Reedy





From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 17:08:58 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 23:08:58 +0200
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<mailman.2455.1093539321.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<gqudnRoo8q-Cg7PcRVn-tA@comcast.com>
	<7xoekx4wit.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<mailman.2458.1093543085.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj5cs7.wqxd1s1ec69umN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xfz69oc1f.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <1gj5eom.gbo9f512upip0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:

> aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:
> > I think a keyword that's ALREADY a keyword has been almost ignored,
> > though people occasionally did mention it re decorators: 'as'.  I'd love
> > to see 'as' used as THE decorator keyword.  personally I'd prefer
> > 'def as classmethod foo(...):'
> > followed by
> 
> How do you handle the other proposed uses of decorators, e.g. type
> declarations?
> 
>     def foo as int (a as string, b as int):
>       ...
> 
> seems pretty awful to me.

Type declarations make me cringe, but if I *had* to have them then 'b as
int' is the best syntax I could imagine for them offhand.


Alex


From martindemello at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 21 06:37:29 2004
From: martindemello at yahoo.com (Martin DeMello)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:37:29 GMT
Subject: decorator J4 - any objections?
References: <cab22418.0408201006.16f163b2@posting.google.com>
	<H5ydnQFIZezZH7vcRVn-iQ@comcast.com>
	<10id2djglri8o15@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <JBFVc.170325$J06.131509@pd7tw2no>

Jeff Shannon <jeff at ccvcorp.com> wrote:
> 
> In fact, the biggest problem that I can see with the J4 syntax is its 
> close similarity to all of the decorator-inside-def variations.  Since 
> GvR has spoken strongly against putting decorators in that location, it 
> seems to me to be a waste of effort to advocate for that.  Now, perhaps 
> having that outdented keyword to indicate the function-body start 
> *might* make a difference with him...  but I would expect that it won't.

The advantage J4 has over J2 is that "def function <decorators> as
<body>" reads much better than "decorate <decorators> def function
<body>" - expected from English syntax is 'decorate def function <body>
with <decorators>'. 

Perhaps J2 but with proposal L to call the decorator declaration
something other than "decorate" - 'using' is the best I've seen so far,
though it's still not perfect. Or another idea - how about inverting the
meaning of 'as', and changing the form of the decorator declarations
slightly? 

as:
  classmethod
  memoised
  accepting (int, int)
  returning (float)
def foo(bar, baz):
  .
  .
  .

martin
  
  

martin


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 31 08:20:53 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 08:20:53 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <loom.20040831T094946-798@post.gmane.org>
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>	<e69d3ed2040
	<HBF.20040830aznn@ <loom.20040831T094946-798@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <ch1qf3$hvr$1@sea.gmane.org>

Steven Bethard wrote:
> Paul Morrow <pm_mon <at> yahoo.com> writes:
> 
>>Actually, these look like assignments to local *magic* variables.
>>There's the difference.  The double underscores before and after each
>>name loudly proclaims that these variables are not like 'normal'
>>variables.  They're special in some way.  That's a Python convention.
> 
> 
> Note that you're asking for __xxx__ variables to be assignments to the 
> function's attributes even though they're in the part of the function that 
> gets executed when the function is *called*. Let's look at what examples of 
> this behavior might look like for some different objects.
> 
> # in the part of a function that is executed when the function gets called
> def f():
>     __author__ = 'Steve'
> 
> # in the part of a class that is executed when the class gets called
> class S(object):
>     def __new__(cls):
>         __author__ = 'Steve'
> 
> # in the part of an object that is executed when the object gets called
> class T(object):
>     def __call__(self):
>         __author__ = 'Steve'
> 
> Note that the parallel I'm trying to draw here is that in each of these cases, 
> the __author__ is assigned to in the part of the definition that gets executed 
> when the object is *called*.  Thus f(), S(), and T()() all execute the code 
> block containing the __author__ assignment.  Presumably you wouldn't want the 
> __author__ statements to assign to the class or the object in the second two 
> examples?
> 

In all of your examples, the __author__ assignments apply to the object 
being defined.  In the first example, that's the function f.  In the 
second example that's the method __new__, and the method __call__ in the 
3rd example.

Note that this is true, /even in today's Python/.  Your intention behind 
each __author__ definition in your examples is *not* to create a local 
variable.  Your function/method (most likely) is not going to use 
__author__ when it executes.  Instead you are adding to the definition 
of the function/method.

What I'm wondering is whether we can stop thinking of assignments to 
magic attributes that immediately follow the docstring (if present) as 
something that gets executed when the function is called.  I think that 
we can.  I think that --- because of the names of these variables 
(author, version, features) --- they will obviously and intuitively be 
associated with the function's definition, not it's execution.  That's a 
point a lot of us have been forgetting here.  These variables don't 
sound like something the function would use in it's calculation.  So 
that, plus the fact that they are specially decorated (leading and 
trailing underscores), plus the fact that they immediately follow the 
docstring categorize them as part of the function's definition, not 
execution.

But why speculate.  Let's see if this is really going to be unclear in 
practice.  Ask someone who has never seen Python before which are the 
local variables in the following def.

    def circumference(diameter):
       """Calculate the diameter of a circle."""
       __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'
       __version__ = '0.1'
       pi = 3.14
       return pi * diameter


> Of course, what you really want is for these things to be assigned to in the 
> part that gets executed when the object is *defined*.  For a class, this is 
> clearly:
> 
> class S(object):
>     __author__ = 'Steve'
> 
> But what gets executed when a function is defined?  Just the def statement, 
> the binding of the function name to its body.  

And the binding of the __doc__ variable, if a docstring is present.


> To be consistent with classes 
> then, your assignment to __author__ should be *in* the def statement.  So what 
> you're suggesting, basically, is that the def statement should be extended to 
> include any __xxx__ assignments following the docstring. 
>

Yes.

> Extending the def statement is not unreasonable, but IMHO it should be clear 
> that the extensions to the def statement are part of that statement.  There's 
> nothing in current Python semantics that would suggest that any assignments in 
> a funcdef are part of the def statement. Note that even docstrings, which 
> could be reasonably argued to be part of the function definition, cannot be 
> included in the def statement by assignment:
> 
> 
>>>>def f():
> 
> ...     __doc__ = "f"
> ...
> 
>>>>print f.__doc__
> 
> None
> 
> Certainly __xxx__ variables are special in some way.  But are they special in 
> the way you want them to be?  

Not yet, /formally/.  But /in practice/ this is how they are used (to 
make meta statements about the thing being defined).

There's no need for a new syntax here.  We don't need more words in our 
language, or anything that makes our code less readable [*].


[*] Have you seen the decorator proposals?


> AFAICT, *assignment* to __xxx__ variables is 
> never what does the magic.  The magic is done when the Python interpreter 
> reads the *values* of those variables.  The variables continue to exist in 
> whatever namespace they were created in -- AFAICT, current Python __xxx__ 
> variable assignments never cause __xxx__ variables to change namespace.
> 

The assignments to __xxx__ variables (immediately following the 
docstring, if present) would occur in the namespace of the object 
(function/method) being defined.  The assignments would not cause them 
to change namespaces.

> I seems like you want to introduce a substantially new semantics to an already 
> existing syntax.  This creates ambiguity...  Ambiguity bad.  Bad, Ambiguitiy, 
> bad!  No biscuit! ;)
> 

I maintain that the author's intention behind these assignments is what 
we should focus on.  When we define a __xxx__ variable inside of a 
function def, we are (most likely) making a meta statement about the 
function.  We are not defining a local variable to be used later in the 
execution of the function.  So this proposal would not be changing the 
meaning of the __xxx__ assignments in practice.  It would merely be 
formalizing them.


Paul



From alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 20 21:15:54 2004
From: alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 18:15:54 -0700
Subject: how to display unicode in a Label in Tkinter
References: <BAY1-F38wO1FnZqJkA400087c55@hotmail.com>
	<mailman.1920.1092881791.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <8f17f4bc.0408201715.73d0aaf9@posting.google.com>

I dont think I am following. Could you possibly give the code and add
commments to explain?


From chris.cavalaria at free.fr  Sat Aug 21 16:22:47 2004
From: chris.cavalaria at free.fr (Christophe Cavalaria)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 22:22:47 +0200
Subject: My only complaint about Python
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<CuCdnUCvWK5XSLncRVn-jw@giganews.com>
	<sr3iv1-b5c1.ln1@eskimo.tundraware.com>
	<874qmxj81k.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>
	<l8kkv1-v652.ln1@eskimo.tundraware.com>
Message-ID: <4127af18$0$22378$626a14ce@news.free.fr>

Tim Daneliuk wrote:

> 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de wrote:
>> Tim Daneliuk <tundra at tundraware.com> writes:
>> 
>> 
>>>Istvan Albert wrote:
>>>
>>>>In all fairness this is more the problem with Microsoft than
>>>>python. If they had a free fully-featured compiler then Python
>>>>would be compiled with that.
>>>
>>>
>>>They do.  MSC/C++ is now available at NO cost:
>>>
>> 
>> 
>> no cost is not the same as free
>> 
>> Klaus Schilling
> 
> <Goes Off The Reservation For A Moment>
> 
> "No Cost" is _exactly_ the same thing as "Free". It is not the same
> thing as "Open Source".
> 
> The debate is foolish in any case. If I use an GPLed compiler, even with
> the Lesser License, I have constraints placed upon what I may or may
> not do with the derivative work. If I use a commercial compiler, I do
> not have access to the source code _for the compiler_, but (usually)
> there are no constraints placed upon what I may do with the derivative
> work.

This is wrong on so many levels :
- gcc is GPL software and you don't have to GPL the source code of the
programs you compile with it. Doing so would place a restriction on the
user of the software which is exactly what the GPL is trying to prevent.
Using gcc to compile source code isn't creating a derivative work of gcc !
- if you modify the gcc source code and thus create a derivative work, you
don't have to distribute the changes, unless you distribute the new gcc
version.
- with a commercial closed source compiler, you can't do any derivative of
the compiler at all and thus you have less freedom than with a GPL
compiler.

If you can't see the difference between using a software and creating a
derivative work of that software ...


From jfabiani at yolo.com  Wed Aug  4 19:13:20 2004
From: jfabiani at yolo.com (John Fabiani)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 23:13:20 GMT
Subject: eric3 completion
References: <953AD2389idtoken@128.91.2.239>
	<VP8Qc.429$NK5.219@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <k4eQc.6615$AY5.5742@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>

John Fabiani wrote:

Feeling dumb - it's part of the uer perferences  duh!
John



From martin.clausen at get2net.dk  Thu Aug 26 09:13:24 2004
From: martin.clausen at get2net.dk (Martin)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:13:24 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Web Application - User Management - RBAC
Message-ID: <loom.20040826T150921-31@post.gmane.org>

I am putting together a simple web-app for construction of standard documents.
Basically the app will present a form for inputting the variable content /
overriding standard text and send back a complete .doc / .swx. The motivation
for using a web app instead of templates is that I have found templates too
brittle, and I would like to store the variable/overriding data in an SQL 
backend.

I would like to implement RBAC(Role Based Access Control) in the app. How would
one best go about that ? is there any code available(classes/frameworks) ? would
one render pages and thereby options based on role or guard methods(i.e. call
some kind of access control object and raise exceptions if an action is not
allowed for the role, or perhaps derive all objects from an object that
automatically handles such checks when a method is called ?) or some other
approach ? I have looked at Webwares UserKit but it is apparently incomplete and
frankly I can't figure out how it works.

I am planning to use CherryPy as a framework, but would be open to another 
approach.

Regards,

Martin



From danb_83 at yahoo.com  Sun Aug  8 07:16:09 2004
From: danb_83 at yahoo.com (Dan Bishop)
Date: 8 Aug 2004 04:16:09 -0700
Subject: Decorators
References: <%A8Rc.50217$Vm1.1280580@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<roy-1C5AF5.18404707082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<u93bh0p8plvilk6veou5i1jq9o12b1pajs@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <ad052e5c.0408080316.5672a8be@posting.google.com>

Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote in message news:<u93bh0p8plvilk6veou5i1jq9o12b1pajs at 4ax.com>...
> On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 18:40:47 -0400, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
...
> I am a great believer in (motivated ) folks capacity to learn new
> things.  And the existence of synonyms is not news to anyone. So no,
> nobody motivated to learn new things will be stopped in their tracks
> by @ in a new context

I agree.  

> (anymore than anyone motivated to learn new
> things things would - given an explanation - be stopped in their
> tracks by 1/2 = 0 ).

I never had a problem with 1/2 == 0; I was already used to it from C, C++, and Java.

But I did get stopped in my tracks the time a function that contained a line like

   mean = sum(seq) / len(seq)

failed because the list happened not to contain any floats.


From nick at craig-wood.com  Fri Aug 13 01:43:56 2004
From: nick at craig-wood.com (Nick Craig-Wood)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 05:43:56 GMT
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <slrnchnlm3.vq2.nick@irishsea.home.craig-wood.com>

Steven Bethard <steven.bethard at gmail.com> wrote:
>  decorate:
>      grammarrule('statement : expression')
>      versioninfo("Added in 2.4")
>      deprecated
>      typeinfo(None)
>  def p_statement_expr(self, p):
>      print p[1]

Has anyone considered overloading one of the existing keywords...
"as" comes to mind as it immediately suggests a naming scheme for the
decorators, "as" "noun" "noun" "noun", eg

 as:
     staticmethod
     grammarrule('statement : expression')
     version("Added in 2.4")
     deprecatedmethod
     type_(None)
 def p_statement_expr(self, p):
     print p[1]

( Actually "as" doesn't appear to be a keyword anyway! )

-- 
Nick Craig-Wood <nick at craig-wood.com> -- http://www.craig-wood.com/nick


From peter at engcorp.com  Sat Aug 28 23:25:08 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 23:25:08 -0400
Subject: Converting hex string to an integer
In-Reply-To: <m3vff4g4cs.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
References: <412d9e18$0$22821$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>
	<cgkkki$774$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
	<sqmdnY4BTq5JR7DcRVn-qQ@powergate.ca>
	<m3vff4g4cs.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <JN6dnW-HuNgL0azcRVn-pA@powergate.ca>

Michael Hudson wrote:

> Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>Rick Holbert wrote:
>>
>>>Derek Fountain wrote:
>>>
>>>>Given the character string "0x00A1B2C3" arriving at sys.argv[1] how do I
>>>>convert that to an integer which I can do some math on?
>>>
>>>i = eval(sys.argv[1])
>>
>>That's dangerous advice to a newbie if not qualified carefully.
>>
>>Derek, "eval" could be the source of serious security problems
>>if you don't understand its power.  Specifically it should
>>almost never be used for input that comes from a user or
>>via the command line.  There is pretty much always another
>>and much better way to do the simple stuff like conversions
>>than to use eval.
>>
>>For example, imagine if a malicious could feed your program this:
>>
>>(on the Linux command line)
>>
>>   $ myscript "__import_('os').system('rm -rf /')"
> 
> Well, in this situation, he could just type
> 
> $ rm -rf /
> 
> But, yes.

He could if he were on the same system, but it's quite possible
that sys.argv[1] in this particular program is actually coming
from a remote system in some manner (web?).  But, yes.  :-)

-Peter


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Wed Aug 11 10:55:40 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:55:40 -0400
Subject: Yet another decorator proposal
In-Reply-To: <2ntvn1F4mgskU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <mailman.1480.1092204219.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2ntvn1F4mgskU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408111054010.19452-100000@ccc1.wpi.edu>

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Reinhold Birkenfeld wrote:

> - Decorators are "hidden" in a string. This is almost as ugly as the
> meta-constructs some other languages have, hiding vital information in
> comments.

Also, don't forget docstrings get thrown away when using python -OO.  
Great voodoo would be needed to prevent this from happening.



From rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm  Sat Aug 21 04:37:31 2004
From: rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm (Roel Schroeven)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 08:37:31 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2089.1093053159.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl>
	<ZFoVc.360$MR2.1503@news1.mts.net>	<RUoVc.220150$W9.10920991@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<mailman.2089.1093053159.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <fRDVc.220888$Nj6.10836009@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

John Hunter wrote:
>>>>>>"Roel" == Roel Schroeven <rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm> writes:
> 
> 
>     Roel> I thought it would be fairly obvious, but I added labels
>     Roel> anyway. I'm not satisfied with there positioning though, and
>     Roel> I don't know how to correct it (it's the first time ever I
>     Roel> use matplotlib).
> 
> How would you like them to be different?  They look pretty good to
> me.... :-)

Hm, it seems to be better now, after some unrelated changes. Yesterday 
'Age' was positioned too high, almost on the same height as the numbers 
indicating the age.

-- 
"Codito ergo sum"
Roel Schroeven


From jimcser at pacifier.com  Sat Aug 14 17:07:30 2004
From: jimcser at pacifier.com (Jim Cser)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 14:07:30 -0700
Subject: Numarray: Using sum() within functions
Message-ID: <10hsvoka533ci3c@corp.supernews.com>

Hello-
I have a function to generate a multi-dimensional array, which then
gets summed over one axis.  The problem is that the dimensions
are large, and I run out of memory when I create the entire array,
so I'm trying to do the sum *within* the function.

Example-- variables x,y,z,t; dimensions numX, numY, numZ, numT;
functions f1(x,y,z,t), f2(y,z,t);  want to calculate f1*f2 and
sum over t to get out[x,y,z].

With loops, I could do it like--
out = zeros((numX,numY,numZ))
for x in range(numX):
    for y in range(numY):
      for z in range(numZ):
         for t in range(numT):
            tempval = f1(x,y,z,t) * f2(y,z,t)
            out[x,y,z] = out[x,y,z] + tempval

With numarray, if I had enough memory, I could just do--
temp1 = fromfunction(f1,(numX,numY,numZ,numT))
temp2 = resize(fromfunction(f2,(numY,numZ,numT)),(numX,numY,numZ,numT))
out = sum(temp1 * temp2, axis = 3)

Instead, I'm trying to do something like--
def f3(x,y,z):
    for t in range(numT):
      tempval = f1(x,y,z,t) * f2(y,z,t)

    outval = sum(tempval,axis = 3)
    return outval

out = fromfunction(f3,(numX,numY,numZ))

I've been trying various slicing and indexing, but I can't seem to
get that *extra* dimension within the 3-D function. I've scoured the
documentation and list archives, but haven't found exactly what I need.
Any suggestions?  Am I stuck with generating the entire 4-D array?

Thanks in advance,
Jim Cser


From ben at benlast.com  Mon Aug 16 11:50:07 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:50:07 +0100
Subject: Newbie question about file input
In-Reply-To: <cfqj3s$cti$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPGENLCDAA.ben@benlast.com>

Just the sort of problem to muse over whilst having a cup of tea :)
> Basically every game starts with the [Event "..."] header and then the
> information about the game is given.

An entirely blank line signals the end of file (from the Python
documentation on readline(): "An empty string is returned only when EOF is
encountered immediately".  Otherwise the string will end with a newline
(probably "\n").  Try your loop as:
while 1:
  line = zf.readline()

  #If line is entirely empty, exit the loop; we've met EOF
  if not line:
    break

  #Strip any whitespace and split the line.  A line that contains
  #only whitespace will result in an empty list being returned from
  #split, so test for that.
  ls = line.strip().split()
  if ls and ls[0] == "[Event":
     games += 1

zf.close()

On the other hand, I'm guessing that the reason you're splitting the line is
to look at the first word.  There are alternative ways to do this:
  if line.startswith("[Event"):
or
  if line.find("[Event") >= 0:
Either would cope with the line being empty, or containing just whitespace.

Ok, so if all you want to do is to count the number of games, you can count
the number of lines that contain "[Event...":

#Simple way
zf=open('test.pgn','r')
count = 0
for line in zf.readlines():
  if line.startswith("[Event"):
    count = count + 1
zf.close()

Or:

#More exotic way, using a list comprehension
zf=open('test.pgn','r')
count = len([x for x in zf.readlines() if x.strip().startswith("[Event")])
zf.close()

That's gratuitously clever, though :)

regards
b

> My first attempt at the python script is:
>
> #! /usr/bin/env python
> import string
> import sys
> zf=open('test.pgn','r')
> # games is number of games
> games = 0
> while 1:
>   line = zf.readline()
>   if line == '':
>     break
>   ls = line.split()
>   print ls[0]
>   if ls[0] == '[Event':
>    games+=1
> zf.close()
> print games
>
>
> I'm having problems when the script reads a blank line from the pgn
> file. I get the following error message:
>    IndexError: list index out of range
> The problem is that ls[0] does not exist when a blank line is read. What
> would be the best way of fixing this?
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Aaron Deskins
> Graduate Student
> Chemical Engineering
> Purdue University
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Sun Aug 22 00:26:48 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 00:26:48 -0400
Subject: Getting benifits of database transactions in an OO way?
In-Reply-To: <7xfz6fhmjo.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
References: <2oq8pmFdd2nfU1@uni-berlin.de> <7xk6vsklxm.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<2oqb54Fdj12nU1@uni-berlin.de> <7xu0uwlztw.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<2oqhlkFdi80eU1@uni-berlin.de> <7xfz6fhmjo.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <2oqle1Fd83upU1@uni-berlin.de>

Paul Rubin wrote:
> Leif K-Brooks <eurleif at ecritters.biz> writes:
>>import people
>>import companies
>>people_transaction = people.begin_transaction()
>>companies_transaction = companies.begin_transaction()
> 
> 
> You wouldn't do it that way.  

How would I do it? If you have the time, I'd really appreciate a 
simplified example of how you'd write the "people" module.

> You could take a look at how javabeans does it.

I've tried Googling for "javabeans", but it's kind of like Googling for 
the word "the". Is there an example of Javabeans you would recommend 
looking at?


From dbickett at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 16:11:31 2004
From: dbickett at gmail.com (Beeyah)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 13:11:31 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2421.1093525633.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1d6cdae3.0408261211.79bd0b41@posting.google.com>

For.

Daniel Bickett.


From jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl  Fri Aug 13 17:04:27 2004
From: jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl (Jarek Zgoda)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 21:04:27 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<XoednR2CrslDi4DcRVn-iw@telcove.net>
Message-ID: <cfjacr$g14$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>

Thomas Bartkus <ThomasBartkus at Comcast.net> pisze:

>    > One of the most commmon reasons programmers cite for not trying Python
>    > is that indentation determines the program flow -- they think its
>    > weird.
> 
>    > I wonder if there is a way to remove this initial barrier.
> 
> Why?  Do we you really want to let just *anyone* in :-)
> 
> When I explain this about Python and I start hearing that flak, I simply
> agree and suggest that Python is not for you.
> 
> Some people should be *forbidden* to move outside of java or VB :-)

Most of newly-addicted to Python says that forced intendation is
something that makes Python programs easier to read and understand.

But you are right, some people should never go outside of (insert your
most hated programming language here, in my case ObjectPascal).

-- 
Jarek Zgoda
http://jpa.berlios.de/


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 14:13:48 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 18:13:48 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: decorator syntax polling suggestion
References: <C59AEFCA2D33284B8EE3C0A8C8C9004A108464@kiwi>
Message-ID: <loom.20040813T201202-13@post.gmane.org>

David Vaughan <David.Vaughan <at> Gifford.UK.com> writes:
> Sounds like what we need is a transferable multiple vote system - see
>     http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Coombs%27_method
> That way, the poll-winner was voted either for or against by each person
> who
> cared about it.

Hmm...  Actually, I think Approval Voting 
(http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Approval_voting) might be more appropriate.  
They say that "Approval Voting would lead to the election of "compromise 
candidates" disliked by few, and liked by few", which I figure is about as 
good as we can get here. ;)

STeve




From olivier.parisy at free.fr  Mon Aug  9 09:01:38 2004
From: olivier.parisy at free.fr (Olivier Parisy)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 15:01:38 +0200
Subject: Exceptions as a Control Structure
Message-ID: <411775aa$0$17867$626a14ce@news.free.fr>

Hi all,

I am new to Python (I just finished Guido's tutorial).
I was very surprised to learn there that the StopIteration
is used to end for loops in a standard iterator setting.

I come from C++, where the use of exceptions as control
structures is frowned upon for efficiency reasons.

What is the Python canon on this topic ? Are exceptions
considered as reasonable control structures, or is
StopIteration alone of its kind ?

Regards,
Olivier.



From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Thu Aug 26 21:20:04 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 18:20:04 -0700
Subject: Sound file manipulation in Python
References: <uu0upzj72.fsf@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1093570115.70672@news.commspeed.net>


"Paul Moore" <pf_moore at yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:uu0upzj72.fsf at yahoo.co.uk...
> Does anyone know of a Python library which handles sound file formats
> (MP3, Ogg, FLAC are the three I'm nost interested in). I'd like
> something that can manipulate "metadata" - stuff like artist, title,
> album tags. I'm not critically interested in format conversion, or
> playing sound files - I can handle that with other applications.
>
> I'm using Windows, and Python 2.3, if it matters (as it might for C
> extensions).
>
> I can manage with just reading the metadata, but ideally writing
> would be useful, too. Multiple libraries is OK, but I need something
> more than just MP3.
>
> If there's nothing available for Python, does anyone know of a good C
> library that could be wrapped? (Or used via ctypes, maybe).
>
> Thanks,
> Paul.
> -- 
> Ooh, how Gothic. Barring the milk.

I would try the Snack toolkit at http://www.speech.kth.se/snack/

Highlights
High level sound objects, with flexible storage management and streaming
support.
Multiple simultaneous playback and recording threads (system dependent).

  All audio data handled as floating point internally for fast and accurate
computations.
  Multi-platform, same scripts usable on Windows 95/98/NT/2K/XP, Linux,
Macintosh, Sun Solaris, HP-UX, FreeBSD, NetBSD, and SGI IRIX.

  Script compilation tool included, for easy deployment using stand-alone
executables.

  Filters which can be used to process sound objects or during playback for
on-the-fly operation.

  Visualization with waveforms, spectrograms, and spectrum sections.
Postscript support.

  Real-time visualization/spectrum analysis.

  Web enabled, possible to run scripts embedded in web pages through the use
of the Tcl plug-in.

  Extensible, new commands, filters, and sound file formats can be added
using the Snack C-library.

  Lots of examples included as well as a skeleton C-extension.

  Supported sound file formats: WAV, AU, AIFF, MP3, CSL, SD, SMP, and
NIST/Sphere




  Tom




From brett at python.org  Wed Aug 25 18:54:58 2004
From: brett at python.org (Brett C.)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 15:54:58 -0700
Subject: TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'NoneType' and
	'str'
In-Reply-To: <3ptpi0h6i94l7c6raml10o4d3sml2e1etf@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <cgj5c2$l70@odbk17.prod.google.com>

Set your  environment 'CC' environment variable to gcc and it should go
away.



From tim.leslie at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 06:03:20 2004
From: tim.leslie at gmail.com (Tim Leslie)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:03:20 +1000
Subject: Logical lines of code counter
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.24.08.34.15.834915@nospam.logilab.fr>
References: <2ot090Fe5442U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<mailman.2172.1093230107.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2ot78fFe1mneU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<pan.2004.08.24.08.34.15.834915@nospam.logilab.fr>
Message-ID: <d32b453504082403033a5a2970@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Sylvain,

Since you're alive on this list, I thought I'd throw you a couple of questions:

1) Where should I best be asking pylint questions? The mailing list
looks a bit quite so I wasn't sure if I would get a reply.

2) Is there someway to specify a set of variables which won't throw
errors for being unused, eg _ when used as a dummy in a for/list comp.

3) Why does this trigger?

W0622 	datacore.ns5 	Ns5._parseHeaders 	156 	Redefining built-in '_'

The offending line is:

        electrodes = [{} for _ in range(self.num_channels)]

Cheers

Tim

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:34:16 +0200, Sylvain Thenault
<sylvain.thenault at nospam.logilab.fr> wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 23:43:25 -0400, Leif K-Brooks wrote:
> 
> > Tim Leslie wrote:
> >> On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:44:17 -0400, Leif K-Brooks
> >> <eurleif at ecritters.biz> wrote:
> >>
> >>>I got bored with working on larger projects and wrote a little
> >>>script/module for counting logical (not physical) lines of Python code
> >>>in a file or directory.
> >> If you want something which can do this and so much more, have a look at
> >> pylint.
> >>
> >> http://www.logilab.org/projects/pylint
> >
> > Neat-looking tool, but not really usable for me. It counts physical lines,
> > not logical lines; it doesn't seem to have an option to recursively scan
> > all sub-directories and files in a directory; and it refuses to process a
> > file if some of the modules code wants to import aren't importable, which
> > is the case with mod_python code.
> 
> pylint counts both physical lines and logical lines, but all collected
> values are not displayed in reports. You should easily add a new report to
> display some additional information if you need it. Well, it lacks some
> documentation but the code is quite clean and I would be happy to help.
> 
> It's also possible to recursivly scan for all python modules in a
> given package ("pylint mypackage"). The problem with failing import is the
> most annoying one. I plan to fix it, one day ;)
> 
> --
> Sylvain Th?nault                               LOGILAB, Paris (France).
> 
> http://www.logilab.com   http://www.logilab.fr  http://www.logilab.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From webraviteja at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 25 03:14:51 2004
From: webraviteja at yahoo.com (Ravi Teja Bhupatiraju)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 00:14:51 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <b74e43f1.0408242314.5c87a21e@posting.google.com>

"Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<jQHUc.1529$2L3.505 at newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....

27. Started at 15 (with a rather late acquired TRS-80).


From hans at zephyrfalcon.org  Fri Aug 20 21:52:44 2004
From: hans at zephyrfalcon.org (Hans Nowak)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:52:44 -0400
Subject: Fate of lambda, Functional Programming in Python...
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2076.1093031165.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <20040820163629.8DD4F1E401A@bag.python.org>	<FB2F45DA-F2C8-11D8-97D4-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>
	<mailman.2076.1093031165.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4126AAEC.7080304@zephyrfalcon.org>

Anthony Baxter wrote:

> First point: lambda, map, filter and reduce won't go away before Python 3.0,
> at the very least. And, to be honest, I suspect map/filter/reduce are much more
> likely to die than lambda, as they can nearly always be expressed more clearly
> as listcomps or genexprs. 

People often lump reduce in with the rest, but there's really no easy way to 
express a reduce with list comprehensions.  That said, for Python 3.0, these 
functions would probably be better off in a separate module with functional 
constructs, rather than disappearing entirely...

--
Hans Nowak (hans at zephyrfalcon.org)
http://zephyrfalcon.org/



From fakeaddress at nowhere.org  Thu Aug 12 02:08:28 2004
From: fakeaddress at nowhere.org (Bryan Olson)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 06:08:28 GMT
Subject: Arranging a dependency tree
In-Reply-To: <6ccff37a.0408111831.6eb25a4e@posting.google.com>
References: <6ccff37a.0408111831.6eb25a4e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <wPDSc.5730$Ub3.3204@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>

Kyle Root wrote:
 > I've created a jumble of python modules, in each one is a tuple that
 > goes something like,
 >
 > deps = ("file10","file7","file3").
 >
 > And some have no dependencies at all.  I have one file called "start",
 > and the whole thing makes a tree of dependencies as each file has deps
 > and their deps might have deps, and so on.  What I'm trying to do is
 > "straighten" them or put them in order as if they were to be
 > installed.  Basically I'm trying to replicate the way portage does it.
 > :)
[...]
 > Basically I was wondering if anyone had any tips or pointers, or knew
 > of any dependency resolving algorithms...

This may be too abstract to help, but I guess it couldn't
hurt...

'Depends' is a binary relation (a set of pairs) where (a, b) is
an element of Depends if and only if b is in a's "deps"
list/tuple.

If you want an ordering in which each module follows the
modules on which it depends, you want a 'topological sort' based
on the depends relation.

If you want to find all the modules on which a module depends,
you want the 'transitive closure' of the depends relation.


If you want to know if the dependencies can or cannot possibly
work, look up the work of Bertrand Meyer and his Eiffel team
on possibly-circular dependencies.


-- 
--Bryan


From Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU  Fri Aug 13 10:10:01 2004
From: Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU (Michael J. Fromberger)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 10:10:01 -0400
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<mailman.1583.1092378965.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnchpf2s.7ld.npat@gray.efault.net>
Message-ID: <Michael.J.Fromberger-A837CD.10100113082004@localhost>

In article <slrnchpf2s.7ld.npat at gray.efault.net>,
 Nick Patavalis <npat at efault.net> wrote:
> 
> At this moment Python is an excelent *glue* language for stuff written
> in low-level laguages. It is also an exelent prototyping language. It
> has a long way to go before becomming a true "production" language (in
> the sense outlined above). Most of this way has to do with Python
> *implementations* and not with Python-the-Language. But it seems that
> there are some steps that must be taken by the language itself in
> order to open the road to efficient implementations.

Let me play the Devil's advocate for a moment here.  

Why is it important to write an entire program in a single language 
(e.g., Python), versus using a hybrid approach?  If you can use Python 
at all, that means your platform already has good support for a C 
compiler, so there is no reason not to use C extensions if you really 
need performance.

Now, perhaps you'll argue that C extensions are not as portable as 
Python ones.  And yet, portability failures usually arise from 
differences in how you access hardware (e.g., graphics cards, audio 
hardware, input devices) or operating system API's, and those 
differences are going to crop up in Python as well.  If you are going to 
have to write system-specific code anyway, and assuming you are very 
concerned about "high performance," you might as well just provide 
multiple C extensions to accommodate the difference, and let the Python 
glue code remain the same.

By this view, I would argue that Python is a much better "production" 
language than many other languages currently being used in that role.  
It is no harder to write extensions for Python than to write native 
methods for Java (and, I would argue, easier for several common cases).  
Furthermore, Python can be stripped down and imbedded without too much 
pain, so that the developer is not forced to maintain a single 
monolithic code-base for their entire application in Python, simply to 
take advantage of a few of its powerful features.

In short, I would argue that Python's ability to play nicely in a 
multipe-language development project is actually a sign of its maturity 
as a production tool.  More cool languages are killed by their lack of 
ability to interface nicely with other cool languages, than all other 
reasons combined.

-M 

-- 
Michael J. Fromberger             | Lecturer, Dept. of Computer Science
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~sting/  | Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA


From michael at foord.net  Mon Aug  2 08:44:03 2004
From: michael at foord.net (Fuzzyman)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 05:44:03 -0700
Subject: Making a socket connection via a proxy server
References: <8089854e.0407300433.4c09bce0@posting.google.com>	<cedu9i$1cb$03$1@news.t-online.com>
	<mailman.1029.1091372132.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <8089854e.0408020444.4ee1eef2@posting.google.com>

[snip..]
> On another note: I assumed you wanted to transparently relay/rewrite HTTP 
> through the proxy. If you need to open some form of socket connection to the 
> proxy which is not HTTP, the proxy protocol supports the method CONNECT, 
> which will simply open up a socket connection which is relayed by the proxy. 
> But: This cannot be made transparent, except by some deeper magic in the 
> router.
> 
> HTH!
> 
> Heiko.

Thanks for your help.
It's only http that I'll be relayign and I only need it to be
transparent to the user - I'm not using this for anonymity.

I don't yet understand the detail of what you've said, but I am
following hte resources you've suggested and now have enough to get to
the next stage of my work.

Thanks

Fuzzyman

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html


From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Aug 19 14:55:45 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:55:45 +0200
Subject: inverse of izip
References: <d11dcfba.0408182144.14aad4a8@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1934.1092900690.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cg1pct$p58$00$1@news.t-online.com>
	<d11dcfba.0408190917.14cfd774@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cg2t3h$kk$07$1@news.t-online.com>

Steven Bethard wrote:

> Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote in message
> news:<cg1pct$p58$00$1 at news.t-online.com>...
>> However, your sample data is badly chosen. Unless I have made a typo
>> repeating your demo, you are getting the same (last) sequence twice due
>> to late binding of i.
>> 
> [snip]
>> >>> map(list, starzip(it.izip("123", "abc")))
>>  [['1', '2', '3'], ['a', 'b', 'c']]
>> >>> x, y = starzip(it.izip("123", "abc"))
>> >>> list(x)
>>  ['a', 'b', 'c']
>> >>> list(y)
>>  ['a', 'b', 'c']
>> >>>
> 
> I knew there was something funny about binding in generators, but I
> couldn't remember what...  Could you explain why 'map(list, ...)'
> works, but 'x, y = ...' doesn't?  I read the PEP, but I'm still not
> clear on this point.

Maybe the following example can illustrate what I think is going on:

import itertools as it

def starzip(iterables):
    return ((t[i] for t in itr)
       for (i, itr) in
       enumerate(it.tee(iterables)))

# the order of calls equivalent to map(list, starzip(...))
s = starzip(it.izip("abc", "123"))
x = s.next() 
# the local variable i in starzip() shared by x and y
# is now 0 
print x.next(),
print x.next(),
print x.next()
y = s.next() 
# i is now 1, but because no further calls to x.next()
# will occur it doesn't matter
print y.next(),
print y.next(),
print y.next()

s = starzip(it.izip("abc", "123"))
x = s.next() # i is 0
y = s.next() # i is 1
# both x an y yield t[1]
print x.next(),
print x.next(),
print x.next()

print y.next(),
print y.next(),
print y.next()

You can model the nested generator expressions' behaviour with the following
function - which I think is much clearer. 

def starzip(iterables):
    def inner(itr):
        for t in itr:
            yield t[i]

    for (i, itr) in enumerate(it.tee(iterables)):
        yield inner(itr)

Note how itr is passed explicitly, i. e. it is not affected by later
rebindings in startzip() whereas i is looked up in inner()'s surrounding
namespace at every yield.

Peter



From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Mon Aug  9 20:31:55 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 17:31:55 -0700
Subject: decorators vs GIL
In-Reply-To: <cf8n4s$b7u$3@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>
References: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>
	<mailman.1345.1091924284.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<96c2e938.0408081605.706f8ec7@posting.google.com>
	<cf8n4s$b7u$3@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>
Message-ID: <10hg5r1hr3g361a@corp.supernews.com>

Jarek Zgoda wrote:

>G. S. Hayes <sjdevnull at yahoo.com> pisze:
>
>  
>
>>>What really hurts is that I can't honestly tell Java programmers that
>>>      
>>>
>>>Python  is a slam dunk compared to Java & the JVM.  Java has no GIL,
>>>      
>>>
>>
>>Java has drunk the threads Kool-Aid, and Java programmers are very
>>likely to be thread-crazy because of the lack of a select equivalent
>>(until recently) and the lack of good access to processes via fork or
>>similar.  Luckily, it's usually pretty easy to convince people of the
>>benefits of NOT overusing threads once they've made that mistake once.
>>    
>>
>
>Try GUI programming without using threads.
>  
>

I've done this plenty of times.  Threads seem to only be essential when 
long-running background tasks are involved.  There's a large set of GUI 
programs where this is not an issue.  I've also never had GIL problems 
with multithreaded GUI apps.  Then again, I'm not writing for 
multiprocessor machines.

As I understand it, the GIL only becomes a real "problem" in the case of 
a multiprocessor machine running multithreaded code, and the "problem" 
is only that you get less-than-optimal efficiency.  I would submit that 
the vast majority of Python applications run on single-processor 
machines, and that for many of the apps that *are* run on SMP it's not 
essential to run at theoretical-optimum efficiency.  Multithreaded, 
multiprocessor applications where peak efficiency is necessary, threads 
can't be replaced by processes, and the use of C extensions (which don't 
suffer from GIL issues) is impractical make up a rather small section of 
the Python usage-base, and it's only those applications that see 
significant negative impacts from the GIL.  Yes, it'd be great if the 
GIL wasn't necessary, but if eliminating it makes *my* single-proc, 
single-thread apps run significantly slower then the change is a net loss.

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From mwh at python.net  Mon Aug 23 11:13:04 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:13:04 GMT
Subject: 2 GB files
References: <9418be08.0408221427.182a4d30@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <m37jrpkhvk.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

elbertlev at hotmail.com (Elbert Lev) writes:

> From postings to this group and other resources I understood that the
> only way to make Python programs to work correctly with files lager
> then 2 GB is building Python interpreter with some "magic spell"
> defines. For me this is ABSOLUTELY unacceptable (Not the building, but
> distributing and installing on dozens of computers in my
> organisation). Then every time we switch to a new release of Python
> this has to be repeated over and over!

Did this post drop through a time warp from 2001? :-)

You might want to check your facts more carefully before getting so
angry.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Java sucks. [...] Java on TV set top boxes will suck so hard it
  might well inhale people from off  their sofa until their heads
  get wedged in the card slots.              --- Jon Rabone, ucam.chat


From dbickett at gmail.com  Tue Aug 10 17:34:11 2004
From: dbickett at gmail.com (Beeyah)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 14:34:11 -0700
Subject: Thread for a newbie
References: <f9d01b73.0408100642.67255b58@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1d6cdae3.0408101334.30fac960@posting.google.com>

justin__devine at hotmail.com (JDevine) wrote in message news:<f9d01b73.0408100642.67255b58 at posting.google.com>...
> Hi.  I have just finished my first python program. Unfortunately
> threading has me stumped.  I think this is mostly because the
> wx.thread example demo is very complex, with all the grahphics,
> graphs, and draw functions.  I want to do something very simple.  My
> program downloads files over HTTP, I want to instantiate a process
> dialog that tracks the download.  I already have access to the
> expected size of each file through other functions in my program, I
> also assume an os.foo is capable of getting the current size as the
> file grows as it is downloaded.  My issue is keeping the file
> downloading WHILE it is being tracked by the process dialog.  Please
> help with any simple thread examples you might have, if this example
> includes a dialog even better.
> Thanks for any help you can provide.
> 
> -Justin
> Justin__Devine at hotmail.com thanks

import threading # not thread

# to make your thread,
# inherit the thread.Threading class, then
# override the __init__ and run methods to define
# what your thread is actually going to do, like so:

class MyNewThread( threading.Thread ):
    def __init__( self , argument ):
        # generally speaking, the first argument of every
        # method should be self. in __init__'s case, the
        # following arguments are the values passed into the
        # thread upon creation, like so:
        # handle = MyNewThread( 1 )
        # in this case, this will define the var 'argument' as '1'
        # to make these values accessible to the other methods,
        # make it an attribute of self
        self.arg = argument
        # at the end of init you should always call the following:
        thread.Threading.__init__( self )
    def run( self ):
        # this function is called once you call MyNewThread.start()
        # once run() terminates, the thread goes with it. so just
        # define what you want your thread to do in this function.
        print repr( self.arg ) + " foo bar"
        # noteably useless

handle = MyNewThread( 2832 )
handle.start() # now the thread's run() method is running

Its important to note that, with the exception of the Queue object,
manipulating an object by the hands of multiple threads is dangerous,
and isn't recommended.

if i messed something up someone correct me, thanks.

Beeyah


From cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca  Wed Aug 18 15:08:21 2004
From: cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca (David M. Cooke)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:08:21 -0400
Subject: favorite python web development tool?
References: <10i4nttktcvltdd@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1886.1092847951.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <qnky8kcjmca.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>

At some point, Ksenia Marasanova <ksenia at ksenia.nl> wrote:

>> i'm fairly new to python, coming from a java servlet / velocity
>> template background.  i'm looking for a good python web development
>> tool, and hope to find some suggestions here.
>
> You may find this url interesting:
> http://www.colorstudy.com/docs/shootout.html
>
> I use Quixote and for some projects also Quixote + HTMLTemplate
> (http://freespace.virgin.net/hamish.sanderson/htmltemplate.html)

I'll second Quixote and HTMLTemplate. Quixote gives a nice framework
(handling requests, URL mapping, etc.), and HTMLTemplate does the
separation of presentation and content.

-- 
|>|\/|<
/--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
|David M. Cooke
|cookedm(at)physics(dot)mcmaster(dot)ca


From dperl at rogers.com  Tue Aug 31 23:53:40 2004
From: dperl at rogers.com (Dan Perl)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 03:53:40 GMT
Subject: initializing mutable class attributes
References: <J4zYc.102357$UTP.98636@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gjc8cs.sqvo1v1fhabdjN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<eTHYc.205$yqJ1.68@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gje9dn.r6jpetyroi0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8JbZc.140699$UTP.23045@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>


"Alex Martelli" <aleaxit at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1gje9dn.r6jpetyroi0N%aleaxit at yahoo.com...
>  ............
> > No one, including you, has given me a reason WHY __init__ is implemented
> > this way.  I am not bashing you for that, I would just still like to
hear
> > that 'WHY'.  I'm sure that this implementation has some advantages.
But,
> > coming from a C++ and Java background, where parent default constructors
are
> > automatically invoked (well, not always, and that is something that
users
> > have to learn too), I find that that approach has some clear advantages.
>
> In this like in many other details, Python chooses simplicity and
> clarity against automatic, black-magic, "behind the scenes" approaches.
> "Explicit is better than implicit" is one part of the Zen of Python that
> speaks to this -- at a python interactive prompt do
>     import this
> to read it all.  The automatic invocation of default constructors when
> they exist, what you have to do instead to get different constructors
> for parent classes, etc etc, are all complications.  When classes are
> designed to execute responsibilities it's not unusual that they can't
> really have a useful no-arguments constructor -- and when they don't
> have such a constructor, C++'s and Java's rules are nothing BUT overhead
> and conceptual complication.  In C++ one often works around the burden
> of contraints on constructor calls via "two-phase constructors" -- a
> default constructor that does not really leave the instance in a usable
> state, just to bypass the darn rules you find "have some clear
> advantages", and then a normal member function that really does the job
> of initialization and has the enormous advantage that YOU decide when
> and with what arguments to call it, without all the darn rules in the
> way, explicitly.  Well, in Python the constructor, __init__, is under
> you control in exactly this way -- less complication, more simplicity,
> more transparency, fewer rules to learn, and far fewer instances of the
> "two-phase constructor" pattern (not zero, mind you -- just 99% fewer).

This is the kind of answer I was hoping for.  Actually, I was prepared to
see a suggestion for solving the problem in a different way and there were a
couple of them, even if the people suggesting them were themselves advising
to prefer the original solution.

When learning something, I need to understand the 'WHY' behind a design
decision like that, when clearly there are alternatives.  I will not be
satisfied with an explanation of "that's the Python way and you just have to
learn it".  The explanation of choosing "explicit" instead of "implicit"
makes sense and helps me in better understanding Python.  I have to mention
though that I do not accept "explicit is better than implicit" as an
absolute truth.  [That's like when someone told me once with pride: "I
always design bottom-up."]  Applying a principle like that CONSISTENTLY in
the design of a language can make a very good language.  On the other hand,
I can imagine there can be very good languages, with their own uses and
advantages, if the reverse principle were consistently used.

You may see in another message I posted in this thread that I ended up
giving an answer to my own question (the 'WHY' question).  Here is my reason
for that 'WHY'.  Python does not have method overloading (and I am ok with
that, because it comes with the dynamic typing), so you cannot have a
default constructor and a non-default one at the same time.  C++ and Java
have overloading and then can also mandate a default constructor for a
parent class, even if it's empty because you actually use only a non-default
constructor for that class.  Python cannot request that you also implement a
default __init__ when you need a non-default one.  There would be the
possibility of adding another special method, but there's already __init__
and __new__, so that would be too confusing.

I don't know whether that was an actual reason for the design even if it is
definitely an obstacle.  But the principle of "explicit instead of implicit"
(I'll think of it that way) will help me to understand also other aspects of
Python.  And thank you for that.

Dan




From catcher at linuxmail.org  Sat Aug  7 20:24:45 2004
From: catcher at linuxmail.org (Robert)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 20:24:45 -0400
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar, but for what exactly?
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
Message-ID: <YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>

I have read a few Python blogs and not a one is taking the decorator syntax
in a good way.

The Python of 1.5.2 simplicity will be long gone.




From yk.suse at bullier.org  Thu Aug 26 15:43:17 2004
From: yk.suse at bullier.org (Yann.K)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 21:43:17 +0200
Subject: Mysql in Python?
References: <2p6m32Fh7o9oU1@uni-berlin.de>	<mailman.2460.1093543565.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2p6nnpFhoue1U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<mailman.2465.1093545734.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cglegl$u4a$1@biggoron.nerim.net>

Jeremy Jones wrote:

>>I was a little konfused after reading the doku of mysql-python, because
>>there the author says its better to use MySQLdb ;-) ?!?!
> So, are you wanting a pure Python module to connect to MySQL?  I'm not
> sure there are any that exist.
10 seconds with google and maybe some leads:
http://www.hk8.org/old_web/linux/sql/ch11_01.htm
http://mysql.mirror.nedlinux.nl/downloads/python.html
http://linux.maruhn.com/sec/mysql-python.html
http://linux.com.hk/docs/mysql/manual_Clients.html#IDX2125

HTH.

-- 
Yann.K


From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Aug 26 17:12:45 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 23:12:45 +0200
Subject: Best processor (i386) for Python performance?
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.26.09.08.46.342107@jeremysanders.net>
References: <789f72ac.0408251950.e85d23e@posting.google.com>
	<412d7e9d$0$26184$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<pan.2004.08.26.09.08.46.342107@jeremysanders.net>
Message-ID: <412E524D.3080800@v.loewis.de>

Jeremy Sanders wrote:
> Yes - AMD64 could be relevant if Python gets a speed boost from the extra
> registers it has available.

Yes, could be. OTOH, it is 64 bits, so it could also see a slow down
because of the larger amounts of memory that needs to be moved for
pointers and longs.

Regards,
Martin


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Tue Aug 10 14:54:46 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:54:46 GMT
Subject: Python equivalent to a C trick
References: <1d7b6d0d.0408092255.1177908e@posting.google.com>
	<slrnchgsml.8e4.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <WR8Sc.10717$KZ2.9031@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"Sam Holden" <sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au> wrote in message
news:slrnchgsml.8e4.sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au...
> On 9 Aug 2004 23:55:08 -0700, Dan <danmoskowitz at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Is there a python equivalent of this trick in C?
> >
> > Logic_Test ? True_Result : False_Result
> >
> > Example:
> > printf( "you have %i %s", num_eggs, num_eggs > 1 ? "eggs" : "egg" );
>
> print "you have %i %s" % ( num_eggs, ("egg","eggs")[num_eggs>1] )

I would choose "!=" instead of ">" as the comparison operator.  I think the
accepted vernacular is:

you have -2 eggs
you have -1 eggs
you have 0 eggs
you have 1 egg
you have 2 eggs
you have 3 eggs
you have 0.5 eggs
...

-- Paul




From peter.maas at mplusr.de  Mon Aug 23 08:42:29 2004
From: peter.maas at mplusr.de (Peter Maas)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:42:29 +0200
Subject: python usage
In-Reply-To: <c5ff5ef5.0408230346.5406b803@posting.google.com>
References: <c5ff5ef5.0408230346.5406b803@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgcok9$bc0$1@swifty.westend.com>

Phanish schrieb:
> Hi, One of my customer wants me to use Python as a test scripting
> language. The architecture is as follows: An C++/Java UI obtains all
> required inputs from the user and then makes call to Python script
> which inturns calls c++ client stubs. These stubs are CORBA stubs
> which talk to a CORBA server residing some where in the network.
> I want to know as to whether it is feasible to use Python or just live
> with c++ for UI and stubs?

I would leave the UI untouched and implement the script and the
CORBA stubs in Python. The advantage is that Python code requires
less typing and is easier and more flexible as C++ code. It makes
testing your ideas faster. But if you will be comfortable with Python
is up to you. Try and see.

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Maas,  M+R Infosysteme,  D-52070 Aachen,  Tel +49-241-93878-0
E-mail 'cGV0ZXIubWFhc0BtcGx1c3IuZGU=\n'.decode('base64')
-------------------------------------------------------------------


From olivierthiery at free.fr  Tue Aug  3 09:15:44 2004
From: olivierthiery at free.fr (Olivier Thiery)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 15:15:44 +0200
Subject: PyQT tutorial
Message-ID: <410f8d35$0$31408$636a15ce@news.free.fr>

Hello,

Do you know any good  and fairly complete tutorial about PyQT, Eric and
QtDesigner ?

Thank you,

Olivier


From Vincent.Raaijmakers at ge.com  Wed Aug  4 10:53:10 2004
From: Vincent.Raaijmakers at ge.com (Raaijmakers, Vincent (GE Infrastructure))
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 09:53:10 -0500
Subject: MySQLdb select
Message-ID: <971323274247EB44B9A01D0A3B424C850B3EC650@FTWMLVEM02.e2k.ad.ge.com>

Thanks,
this worked!

Vincent

-----Original Message-----
From: python-list-bounces+vincent.raaijmakers=ge.com at python.org
[mailto:python-list-bounces+vincent.raaijmakers=ge.com at python.org]On
Behalf Of Gerhard H?ring
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 6:14 PM
To: python-list at python.org
Subject: Re: MySQLdb select


Raaijmakers, Vincent (GE Infrastructure) wrote:
> I'm so glad that this issue is raised here.
> Can someone help me in this thread explaining me how to use multiple parameters.
> Jaco helped me already a lot and perhaps someone in this thread can give me the final answer:
> 
> My table contains a blob and a bigint for storing images. The table name is also a variable, so the query looks like:
> SQL = "INSERT INTO %s (number, image) VALUES (%s, %s)"
> 
> Well, I get a mysql exception if the execution looks like:
> cursor.execute(SQL, (tableName, aValue, jpgImage))
> 
> The execution only works when I fill out the data until the blob value is a 'left over' as a %s:
> Yes, this looks ugly.. but it works...
> 
> SQL = "INSERT INTO %s (number, image) VALUES (%s," % (tableName, aValue) ## table name and number
> SQL += "%s)" ## left over... only the image
> cursor.execute(SQL, jpgImage)
> 
> Can someone explain this to me?

While the DB-API way of passing parameters was neatly explained in other 
posts in this thread, there are still some places where you need to 
construct SQL manually, like in your case, where you dynamically insert 
the name of the table into your SQL string.

A proper way to solve this task is to do it in two steps (untested code):

SQL = INSERT INTO %s (number, image) VALUES %%s, %%s" % tableName
cursor.execute(SQL, (aValue, jpgImage))

Note that the first line only inserts the table name into the SQL 
string. Because we want to still have 'VALUES %s, %s' in the SQL string 
after applying the % operator, we escape the percent signs with an 
additional percent sign.

Then, in the second line, you can let the DB-API do all the real passing 
  of query parameters for you.

-- Gerhard
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From tim.peters at gmail.com  Mon Aug  2 20:10:53 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 20:10:53 -0400
Subject: Call for Grant Proposals
In-Reply-To: <410ED411.7090907@acm.org>
References: <40fcaa90$0$27091$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>	<ToadnWWu8tQIgmDdRVn-uQ@giganews.com>	<p_2dnfCS9O4GRmDdRVn-qQ@powergate.ca>
	<41097fed$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>
	<e69d3ed2040802004962f99d8a@mail.gmail.com>
	<410DF640.4010307@acm.org>
	<e69d3ed204080201087beb6bf1@mail.gmail.com>
	<410DF824.8070309@acm.org>
	<e69d3ed20408020146417cca41@mail.gmail.com> <410ED411.7090907@acm.org>
Message-ID: <1f7befae0408021710dbb23c7@mail.gmail.com>

[Maurice Ling, wants to know whether PSF grants require funded work to be
 open-sourced, etc]

While I'm a PSF Director, I'm not on the Grants Committee and don't
speak for them.

I'll just note that since the PSF is a public charity (under US tax
law), there are a lot of rules the PSF has to comply with when
distributing its funds.  I expect that answering your questions will
require paying a lawyer to spell out what's possible.  I don't know
what they'll say.  In general, the PSF is required to act in the
public interest.

That said, the PSF doesn't have a ton of money, and there will almost
certainly be more worthy requests for funding than there are funds to
pass out.  Proposals will therefore compete.  If I were on the Grants
Committee, whether a proposal would benefit the public at large would
be a major consideration for me.  IOW, I think it's predictable-- and
appropriate --that proposals to fund open-source work will "score
points" for that reason alone.


From alexis.roda at urv.es  Fri Aug 20 06:19:01 2004
From: alexis.roda at urv.es (Alexis Roda)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:19:01 +0200
Subject: esoteric question about dict keys (Re: age of Python programmers)
Message-ID: <4125D015.9090204@urv.es>

This is my first message to the list, so I'll present myself and add my 
contribution to the "age of python programmes" thread.

My name is Alexis Roda, I'm 36 - 7/365 years old, I started programming 
with python two years ago, mainly because I started playing with zope. 
At first I was a reluctant Perl converted, although initially I hated 
python (well, I hated zope wich make me hate python) now I'm in love 
with both python and zope. I started programming at 15 with a Casio 
calculator (a kind of assembler), then an Amstrad CPC464 (Basic), a 
Macintosh Plus (Pascal, C, Lisp, assembler) and finally come to the 
PC/Linux world (assembler, C, C++, Perl, bash scripting, elisp and python).

Now the question. In "normal" dicts its not possible to use dictionaries 
(nor other kinds of mutable objects) as keys, if I undersand correctly 
this is a technical requirement. If I write my own dictionary-like 
object, on wich the mutability of the keys is not a technical issue, is 
considered blasphemous the use of dicts as keys? For example, querying 
an SQL table can be partially modelled as a dictionary access:

table[pkey_value] gives a record for this primary key

table[{'somefield':somevalue}] returns all the records where 
somefield=somevalue

or is preferable to define a query() method for these uses and restrict 
__getitem__ to mutable objects for the sake of consistency?




TIA
-- 
                                    ////
                                   (@ @)
----------------------------oOO----(_)----OOo--------------------------
<>               Ojo por ojo y el mundo acabara ciego
/\ Alexis Roda - Universitat Rovira i Virgili - Reus, Tarragona (Spain)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Sat Aug 28 10:22:24 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 07:22:24 -0700
Subject: Dynamic languages
References: <278de0e.0408271349.26762174@posting.google.com>
	<1093650026.763899@news.commspeed.net>
	<98862c6.0408280531.6064d510@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1093703465.236222@news.commspeed.net>


"Marcel van den Dungen" <m_vddungen at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:98862c6.0408280531.6064d510 at posting.google.com...
> "Tom B." <sbabbitt at commspeed.net> wrote in message
news:<1093650026.763899 at news.commspeed.net>...
> > I doubt that this is what they mean but a dynamic language is a language
> > that is still evolving (Python) as opposed to a dead language (COBOL).
> >
> > They probably are referring to programs that can add and remove
components
> > during runtime.
>
> Dynamic refers to the typing of variables. In Python variables get a
> type dynamically when assigned a value.
> See also: http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=4639
> and several blog posting of Bruce Eckel on this subject:
> http://www.mindview.net/WebLog/
>
> Marcel.

Those languages are called dynamically typed languages, this implies that
there is a statically typed language, which there is.
All languages are dynamic, this slang is bad computer science. There is no
such thing as a static computer language.

Tom




From ben at benlast.com  Wed Aug 18 02:41:45 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 07:41:45 +0100
Subject: Databases: Getting values by column name
In-Reply-To: <899f842.0408170957.13719032@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPKECHCEAA.ben@benlast.com>

> From: python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org
> [mailto:python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org]On Behalf Of
> Anthony_Barker
> what about db_rows?
An excellent suggestion, as were the points about MySQLdb's DictCursors; I
thought it appropriate to try and show that the database API in *general*
does include what's needed (i.e., the cursor.description attribute).  I
suspect this particular wheel has been reinvented many times :)
Something I noted, but forgot to mention (and which is worth mentioning for
anyone who googles their way into this thread in the future) is that
non-column selects (such as SELECT COUNT(*) or SHOW TABLES or DESCRIBE)
return descriptions whose field names may or may not be what you expect (for
example, a SHOW TABLES returns a field name "Tables_in_x" where x is the
name of the database).

b


______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
______________________________________________________________________


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 03:04:45 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 01:04:45 -0600
Subject: inverse of izip
In-Reply-To: <41244ABC.5020704@zeomega.com>
References: <d11dcfba.0408182144.14aad4a8@posting.google.com>
	<41244ABC.5020704@zeomega.com>
Message-ID: <d11dcfba040819000460d1ff8d@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:07:48 +0530, Satchidanand Haridas
<sharidas at zeomega.com> wrote:
> 
> >>> a = itertools.izip(*itertools.izip(range(10),range(10)))
> >>> a
> <itertools.izip object at 0x40164f2c>
> 
> >>>a.next()
> (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)
> >>> a.next()
> (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)
> >>> a.next()

I'm assuming you popped this one off without actually reading my
email.  No worries - it happens some times.  You'll note however, that
this is exactly what I said didn't work:

Steven Bethard wrote:
>>>>x, y = itertools.izip(*itertools.izip(range(10), range(10)))
>>>>x, y
>((0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9), (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9))
>
>But then I get a pair of tuples, not a pair of iterators.  Basically,
>I want to convert an iterator of tuples into a tuple of iterators.

I want the elements returned by the itertools.izip object to be
iterators, not tuples or lists.

Steve

-- 
You can wordify anything if you just verb it.
        - Bucky Katt, Get Fuzzy


From com-nospam at ccraig.org  Tue Aug 10 12:42:08 2004
From: com-nospam at ccraig.org (Christopher A. Craig)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 12:42:08 -0400
Subject: Secure storage for passwords for admin scripts?
References: <c90c3203.0408100711.3f7b056d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <t1w4qnb2bdr.fsf@kermit.wreck.org>

mksql at yahoo.com (Max) writes:

> I have a collection of system admin scripts (on Win 2k) that I would
> like to automate the execution of. However, some of them require the
> use of logins with admin rights, and would therefore prefer not to
> store the IDs in the clear text of the source. If memory serves
> correctly, the "compiled" .pyc files do not provide much security in
> this area.
> 
> Are there are recommended methods for supplying scripts with login
> information in a secure fashion?

You cannot store passwords in a secure fashion and extract them
automatically.  If there is an algorithm for extracting them (and
worse the algorithm is in the script) then they aren't secure.

-- 
Christopher A. Craig <com-nospam at ccraig.org>
"The problem with X is that it's overadequate" Dennis Ritchie



From donn at u.washington.edu  Tue Aug 17 12:41:43 2004
From: donn at u.washington.edu (Donn Cave)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:41:43 -0700
Subject: music resources
References: <mailman.1769.1092710233.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1qfUc.128080$gE.84239@pd7tw3no>
Message-ID: <donn-4587F2.09414317082004@gnus01.u.washington.edu>

In article <1qfUc.128080$gE.84239 at pd7tw3no>,
 "Elaine Jackson" <elainejackson7355 at home.com> wrote:
> Thanks for your suggestions. What I want to do with music is to learn it and
> play with it. Even an auditory equivalent of "MS Paint" would probably keep 
> me
> busy for some time, since I'm essentially starting from zero.

I think I'd recommend a ukelele, really.  Music happens in
a different part of the brain, and I think you're better
off starting right there and moving on to the symbols and
tables later.  It isn't just pop science, there's really
something to it - I know when I'm playing something that
leaves my mouth free, people try to talk to me, and I can
look at them and understand at some level, but there's no
way I can get the words together for a response, because
that part of my brain is taking a break for the moment.
Never tried to think about computer programming in that
state, but I'm rather sure it would be useless.

It's hardly short of a crime that masses of young people
come out of the school system every year with the ability
to render a tune from sheet music like a player piano but
with barely any personal sense of music, just because we
only know how to start there and teach them to see a note,
play a note.

I have never actually played a ukelele, it's just an inexpensive
and approachable instrument capable of playing several notes
at once and with strong rhythmic potential (cf. its close relative
the Brazilian cavaquinho for more on that perspective.)

   Donn Cave, donn at u.washington.edu


From FBatista at uniFON.com.ar  Wed Aug 25 11:36:24 2004
From: FBatista at uniFON.com.ar (Batista, Facundo)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:36:24 -0300
Subject: Floating point weirdness
Message-ID: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C784C@escpl.tcp.com.ar>

[Joshua Ginsberg]

#- >>> float('19.95')
#- 19.949999999999999
#- >>> round(19.94999999999999999, 2)
#- 19.949999999999999
#- >>> round(19.949, 1)
#- 19.899999999999999
#- 
#- Why can't I just get 19.95?

>From the Python FAQs:

	
http://www.python.org/doc/faq/general.html#why-are-floating-point-calculatio
ns-so-inaccurate

You maybe want to use Decimal (will be available in Py2.4).

If you want theory about this, you should consider reading the PEP 327:

	http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0327.html

Regards,

.	Facundo


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Fri Aug  6 07:42:23 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 07:42:23 -0400
Subject: PEP 263 status check
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com> <4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de>
	<10h5hgvpafm8a64@news.supernews.com> <41133C76.8040302@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <10h6rklt3fa1690@news.supernews.com>


"Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote in message
news:41133C76.8040302 at v.loewis.de...
> John Roth wrote:

> > My specific question there was how the code handles the
> > combination of UTF-8 as the encoding and a non-ascii
> > character in an 8-bit string literal. Is this an error? The
> > PEP does not say so. If it isn't, what encoding will
> > it use to translate from unicode back to an 8-bit
> > encoding?
>
> UTF-8 is not in any way special wrt. the PEP.

That's what I thought.

> Notice that
> UTF-8 is *not* Unicode - it is an encoding of Unicode, just
> like ISO-8559-1 or us-ascii (although the latter two only
> encode a subset of Unicode).

I disagree, but I think this is a definitional issue.

> Yes, the byte string literals
> will be converted back to an "8-bit encoding", but the 8-bit
> encoding will be UTF-8! IOW, byte string literals are always
> converted back to the source encoding before execution.

If I understand you correctly, if I put, say, a mixture of
Cyrillic, Hebrew, Arabic and Greek into a byte string
literal, at run time that character string will contain the
proper unicode at each character position?

Or are you trying to say that the character string will
contain the UTF-8 encoding of these characters; that
is, if I do a subscript, I will get one character of the
multi-byte encoding?

The point of this is that I don't think that either behavior
is what one would expect. It's also an open invitation
for someone to make an unchecked mistake! I think this
may be Hallvard's underlying issue in the other thread.

> Regards,
> Martin

John Roth




From fakeaddress at nowhere.org  Tue Aug 10 22:48:43 2004
From: fakeaddress at nowhere.org (Bryan Olson)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 02:48:43 GMT
Subject: Fixing socket.makefile()
In-Reply-To: <donn-800198.11105210082004@gnus01.u.washington.edu>
References: <pJXRc.2959$5j7.2643@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>
	<donn-800198.11105210082004@gnus01.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <fOfSc.83$O72.0@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>

Donn Cave wrote:
[...]
 > I don't get this.  Has socket.py changed this much since 2.2?
 > The readline I'm looking at says self._sock.recv(self._rbufsize),
 > so you would only get this behavior if you specified a buffer
 > size of 1 or less, and read() does the same - so you could do
 > this to yourself, but not specially just with readline.

Hi Donn; yes, looks like I got confused on that one.

 > At any rate, I think it would put this in better perspective
 > to recall that pipes, terminals and in general any "slow"
 > device has the same issues, and that they work out the same
 > in Python as in the original C, with socket file descriptors
 > in place of socket objects and stdio file pointers in place
 > of file objects.

And it gets worse.  I've seen layered handlers with buffers of
buffers of buffers.

 > It's definitely a problem, and some kind of solution might be
 > well received, but it needs to be portable (so forget MSG_PEEK
 > unless you're really confident that it will be supported on
 > every platform that now supports sockets to some useful degree),

Hold on ... Gooogle...Google...Google... Well, support for
MSG_PEEK seems to be universal except for a couple reported bugs
and versions of BeOS without BONE (BeOS Network Environment).
I've never used BeOS, but apparently BeOS'ers are used to the
idea that they need BONE to get network stuff working.

Actually testing against the wide range of platforms is beyond
my own capabilities.

 > and it would be nice to apply to the problem in general and
 > not just sockets.

Agreed, but for now I'd like to call that out-of-scope.  I came
upon this particular problem when writing an HTTP/1.1 thingy.
The socket module works well, but I found the higher-level
library classes not-so-useful.

 > I think the root of the problem really is that
 > select() doesn't look at process buffers in fileobject instances,
 > and it can't be made to do that because that information isn't
 > available from the stdio file pointer underneath the fileobject.
 > So, you need a replacement for fileobject, to start with.

Really we want a general, portable, extensible event-handler.
It should to be unified with all the asynchronous things, such
as socket/file activity, thread locks and semaphore, and GUI
event loops.


-- 
--Bryan


From jpmorichon at earthlink.net  Fri Aug 13 13:16:29 2004
From: jpmorichon at earthlink.net (CptPicard)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 17:16:29 GMT
Subject: blocking file.readlines() needed
References: <cfiqlr$3a8$1@news2.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>
Message-ID: <NH6Tc.23608$Jp6.2724@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>

Geoff Howland has written a script, LogReader.py, that should give you some
hints on how to do your "tail -f".
http://unixnaut.com/skills/Languages/python/

Using google, I also found some talks about that. Here is one of the
solution that I found :


import sys,os
import time
from Tkinter import *
from ScrolledText import ScrolledText

class LogViewer(Frame):
    def __init__(self, parent, filename):
        Frame.__init__(self,parent)
        self.filename = filename
        self.file = open(filename, 'r')
        self.text = ScrolledText(parent)
        self.text.pack(fill=BOTH)
        data = self.file.read()
        self.size = len(data)
        self.text.insert(END, data)
        self.after(100, self.poll)

    def poll(self):
        if os.path.getsize(self.filename) > self.size:
            data = self.file.read()
            self.size = self.size + len(data)
            self.text.insert(END, data)
        self.after(100,self.poll)

if __name__ == "__main__":
    root = Tk()
    viewer = LogViewer(root, sys.argv[1])
    viewer.mainloop()

"Uwe Mayer" <merkosh at hadiko.de> wrote in message
news:cfiqlr$3a8$1 at news2.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de...
> Hi,
>
> I am looking for a way to make the call to a file objects readline()
method
> blocking when there is no more data, until data is appended to the file,
> similar to the way
>
> $ tail -F <system log file>
>
> works.
>
> However, file.readlines() aborts and returns an empty list.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks
> Ciao
> Uwe
>




From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 16:52:02 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 13:52:02 -0700
Subject: decorator syntax polling suggestion
Message-ID: <d11dcfba.0408121252.7690a43a@posting.google.com>

The poll, as stated, asked voters to vote for the syntax suggestion
they liked the /most/.  Some of the conclusions people are trying to
draw from it are what syntaxes people liked the /least/.  This is
probably not the right conclusion to be drawing from the poll that was
given.

It is, however, the kind of conclusion I think we'd like to draw.  I'm
not sure we're going to agree fully on a single "best" proposal, but
it would help to get rid of any proposals that are overwhelmingly
dispreferred.  So I suggest a new poll of which syntax suggestions
people like the /least/.  I know that GvR is not interested in polls
(and probably rightfully so), so I suggest this only as a means of
directing our discussion -- if an overwhelming majority dislikes a
certain option, we can stop discussing it, and focus on the remaining
options.

I think it's also important not to limit the options so much.  I
didn't vote at the last one because I didn't like any of the options. 
I'd actually propose 4 different polls, based on the syntax breakdown
in the wiki:

Indicator:
* keyword
* symbol
* function
* none

Location:
* pre-def
* on same line, preceding def
* between def and function name
* between function name and argument list
* between argument list and colon
* at beginning of function body

List notation:
* one per line
* commas only
* as list
* as tuple

Indentation:
* indent decorators and def
* indent only decorators
* none

I think it should be pretty easy for us to throw out some of these
options pretty quickly.  (For example, I haven't seen much support for
"Location: between function name and argument list".)

Does this seem like a better polling strategy?  If so, can someone
post such polls somewhere?

Steve


From agriff at tin.it  Thu Aug 26 02:05:53 2004
From: agriff at tin.it (Andrea Griffini)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 06:05:53 GMT
Subject: Proposal for removing self
References: <cgj4jf$15a@odak26.prod.google.com>
	<938a4680.0408252123.4d71432e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <seuqi0hkpvcjhvpamgu854p7j4ttls8gv3@4ax.com>

On 25 Aug 2004 22:23:46 -0700, rattan at cps.cmich.edu (Ishwar Rattan)
wrote:

>I concur for keeping self intact, it does provide clarity in code writing
>and reading.

I remember Alex Martelli advocating in our italian newsgroup on
C++ that C++ programmers should use "this->..." everywhere :-)

Seemed crazy to me at that time, but now after giving a try
to python I've to say that self-consciousness isn't bad.

Andrea


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 03:21:38 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 17:21:38 +1000
Subject: Why I love python.
In-Reply-To: <slrnchopcj.grl.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<mailman.1583.1092378965.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnchopcj.grl.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408130021639ffc85@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 Aug 2004 06:54:11 GMT, Sam Holden <sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au> wrote:
> I've also been doing rtp voice in python - on an iPAQ H3800... I'm using
> your rtp.py code (I'm not doing sip), so I can't take credit for it
> though :)
> 
> I dont know if it's "more than fast enough", but it's "fast enough".

Neat! Well, on that sort of extremely limited hardware, it's not suprising
that it's more of a struggle. Someone else got the full shtoom working on
WinCE or similar.


From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Aug  6 05:47:15 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 11:47:15 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
In-Reply-To: <HBF.20040806c08y@bombur.uio.no>
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no> <4112AC7B.1060508@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806egka@bombur.uio.no> <411343D7.3020604@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806c08y@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <411353A3.8090502@v.loewis.de>

Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
>>The coding declaration was only acceptable because
>>- a statement would have to go before the doc string, in
>>   which case it would not have been a docstring anymore, and
> 
> 
> Hmm...

You misunderstood. I was talking about the module docstring

"Written by Martin v. L?wis"
directive encoding "utf-8"

Here, the declaration comes after the first non-ASCII character,
which does not work.

directive encoding "utf-8"
"Written by Martin v. L?wis"

Here, the string is not a docstring anymore, because it is
not the first expression in the module.

>   >>> help(bar)
>   Traceback (most recent call last):
>     ...
>   UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode character '\uf8'
>   in position 59: ordinal not in range(128)

That's a bug in the help function.

> Even if the doc string is written in English, it may still need to
> use non-English names.

Certainly. This is why the encoding declaration can't be a statement.

> Still, how about 'directive str7bit', 'directive -W::str7bitWarning' or
> something?

See PEP 244. I would have liked a directive statement, but the PEP was
rejected (in favour of __future__ imports, at that time).

A future import might work, except that this is a commitment that
the future comes some day, which, for str7bit, would not be the case:
there will *always* be a possibility to put non-ASCII bytes into 8-bit
strings (of course, requiring that people use escape sequences for
them might be acceptable).

In any case, you probably have to write a PEP for this.

Regards,
Martin


From miki.tebeka at zoran.com  Tue Aug 10 08:55:59 2004
From: miki.tebeka at zoran.com (Miki Tebeka)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:55:59 +0200
Subject: Is there something else but Automake?
In-Reply-To: <cfaaan$pl3$1@voyager.news.surf.net>
References: <cfaaan$pl3$1@voyager.news.surf.net>
Message-ID: <20040810125559.GC2636@zoran.com>

Hello Magnus,

> I am currently using Automake to make distributable tar-balls of my
> application. Is there something else (hopefully better) that I can use?
You might want to have a look at SCons (http://www.scons.org).
Great tool and written in Python, you can also use any Python code inside
the configuration files.

Bye.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Miki Tebeka <miki.tebeka at zoran.com>
http://tebeka.spymac.net
The only difference between children and adults is the price of the toys


From pythongnome at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 29 19:25:09 2004
From: pythongnome at hotmail.com (Lucas Raab)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 23:25:09 GMT
Subject: Installation of mod_python 3.1.3 on Apache 2.0.50 on Windows
	Me/Win2k
References: <39cbe663.0408290850.14452ab9@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <pBtYc.6594$6o3.4300@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>

Why not post this to the mod_python mailing list??

"Piet" <pit.grinja at gmx.de> wrote in message
news:39cbe663.0408290850.14452ab9 at posting.google.com...
> Hi there,
> I cannot install mod_python v3.1.3 on either Win2k/ActivePython 2.3.2
> or WinMe/Python 2.3.4. When I run the Windows installer, I get the
> following error message:
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "C:\Programme\Python23\Scripts\win32_postinstall.py", line 86,
> in ?
>     apachediroptions = getApacheDirOptions()
>   File "C:\Programme\Python23\Scripts\win32_postinstall.py", line 45,
> in getApacheDirOptions
>     apachekey = regkey(win32con.HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE,
> "Software").childkey("Apache Group").childkey("Apache")
>   File "C:\Programme\Python23\Scripts\win32_postinstall.py", line 34,
> in childkey
>     return regkey(self.key, subkeyname)
>   File "C:\Programme\Python23\Scripts\win32_postinstall.py", line 32,
> in __init__
>     self.key = win32api.RegOpenKey(parent, subkeyname)
> pywintypes.error: (2, 'RegOpenKeyEx', 'Das System kann die angegebene
> Datei nicht finden.')
> Exception exceptions.AttributeError: "regkey instance has no attribute
> 'key'" in <bound method regkey.__del__ of <__main__.regkey instance at
> 0x00CF1440>> ignored
> *** run_installscript: internal error 0xFFFFFFFF ***
> I checked the registry and found that the key mentioned in the error
> message does indeed not exist. Is this a failure in my apache
> configuration/installation or is the installation package of
> mod_python incorrect? Are there any experiences with the
> abovementioned configuration?
> Thanx in advance
> Peter




From chrisdewinN0SPAM at yahoo.com.au  Wed Aug 25 15:46:00 2004
From: chrisdewinN0SPAM at yahoo.com.au (Dfenestr8)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 04:46:00 +0900
Subject: Capturing exceptions?
References: <pan.2004.08.25.17.12.17.521438@yahoo.com.au>
	<a9uuv1-dtf.ln1@valpo.de>
	<pan.2004.08.25.18.17.43.658391@yahoo.com.au>
	<4u3vv1-vkg.ln1@valpo.de>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.25.19.45.33.461757@yahoo.com.au>

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 20:55:31 +0200, Mathias Waack wrote:

>> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:19:06 +0200, Mathias Waack wrote:
>> 
>>> Dfenestr8 wrote:
>>>> What's the easiest way to capture the traceback from an exception, and
>>>> write it to a file? Ideally, I'd like to be able to do something like:
>>>> 
>>>>>try:
>>>>>main()
>>>>>except:
>>>>>write the traceback to a file
>>> 
>>> Have a look at the traceback module.
>>> 
>>> Mathias
>> 
>> I did. Thanx. But I'm afraid I don't understand it.
> 
> import traceback
> try: raise Exception, "python is so cool;)" except:
> traceback.print_exc(None,file("exc.trc","w"))
> 
> Does it that what you want?
> 
> Mathias

yep. Should do.

Thanx.

PS: Still would like to know what kind of parameter that other method
wants.



From artur_spruce at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  9 11:59:37 2004
From: artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 08:59:37 -0700
Subject: How do you feel ?
References: <mailman.940.1087222870.6949.python-list@python.org>
	<mailman.1320.1091837963.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b840abf4.0408070158.643fbcd2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <b840abf4.0408090759.6a3ee354@posting.google.com>

artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR) wrote in message news:<b840abf4.0408070158.643fbcd2 at posting.google.com>...
> <snip>
> I tried Common Lisp, but
> online tutorials are very basic, and online reference is hard to
> navigate; I still don't know what "#" and "," mean.
> <snip>

A short update after a few nice people sent me some helpful info:
Common Lisp is an impressively powerful language, but I still prefer
Python's straightforwardness and its more practical (think re, xml,
Tkinter modules) standard library. It fits my brain and my job better.

An interesting comparison, if you want to check it for yourself, is
one between the unittest module and what is described on this page:

http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-building-a-unit-test-framework.html

Both approaches are based on commonly used features and coding style
of their respective languages. I think this is good example of how
language vs. language comparisons should be done.

AdSR


From duncan.booth at invalid.invalid  Thu Aug 19 11:08:36 2004
From: duncan.booth at invalid.invalid (Duncan Booth)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 15:08:36 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Xns954AA43446324duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>

"Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote in 
news:jQHUc.1529$2L3.505 at newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:

> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer??

My average age is 21. My actual age is rather more.


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 13:08:12 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 03:08:12 +1000
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
In-Reply-To: <20040823165129.GC8036@titan.progiciels-bpi.ca>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E26@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
	<20040823165129.GC8036@titan.progiciels-bpi.ca>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408231008104b9c3b@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:51:29 -0400, Fran?ois Pinard
<pinard at iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
> [Robert Brewer]
> 
> > III. Choosing a keyword
> 
> > If a keyword is to be chosen over @ or other punctuation, the question
> > remains, "which word should it be?" [...] The keyword [...] should not
> > be a word with a planned future. This rules out "with" and "as"
> 
> All the contrary, being a word with a planned future may be an advantage, as
> long as using that word makes enough sense in itself, and given the syntax we
> use have no chance of clashing with the planned syntax.
> 
> This might rule out "as" because not meaningful enough, but "with" might
> be pertinent enough for being used -- yet I'm not fully sure.  The word
> "using" is surely not bad either :-), but would be yet another keyword.

Guido already has plans for 'with'. Using it in decorators would cause
confusion and ambiguity, e.g.

with foo:
      .baz = 1
     .banana(monkey=True)
def someentirelyunrelatedfunction(args):
     ....

with:
     frobozulate
     mangle(totally=True)
def decoratedfunction(arg):
    ....

Guido's already ruled out using 'as' in the context of decorators, and
I agree - don't overload keywords (or even, in the case of 'as',
not-really-keywords). In addition, 'as' already has plenty of other
meanings in, for instance, SQL, that are entirely unlike the meaning
envisaged here.


From jpmorichon at earthlink.net  Thu Aug  5 11:43:24 2004
From: jpmorichon at earthlink.net (CptPicard)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 15:43:24 GMT
Subject: Need help on how to use Pymedia!
References: <AXgQc.508$nx2.344@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3x8w4pqd3emo.15wp1jkrwkqua.dlg@40tude.net>
Message-ID: <wAsQc.12060$Jp6.9869@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>

Thank you for your help!

"Lawrence Oluyede" <raims at dot.com> wrote in message
news:3x8w4pqd3emo.15wp1jkrwkqua.dlg at 40tude.net...
> In data Thu, 05 Aug 2004 02:28:48 GMT, CptPicard ha scritto:
>
> > Could someone give me a more detailed documentation on pymedia or some
clues
> > on how to get the information I need ?
>
> AFAIK Pymedia cannot extract ID3 infos from MP3 (altough you can study by
> yourself the ID3 format a inspect the raw info of the file), anyway the
web
> is full of ID3 tools for python such as:
> http://id3-py.sourceforge.net/


>
> bye!
>
> --
> Lawrence (l dot oluyede at virgilio dot it)
> "In IE we trust"




From PeterAbel at gmx.net  Mon Aug  2 13:08:19 2004
From: PeterAbel at gmx.net (Peter Abel)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 10:08:19 -0700
Subject: MySQLdb select
References: <lGIOc.4961$AY5.4762@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
	<ceg5ca$ftn$1@newshispeed.ch>
	<9RPOc.2792$LI7.1058@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <21064255.0408020908.41357e52@posting.google.com>

John Fabiani <jfabiani at yolo.com> wrote in message news:<9RPOc.2792$LI7.1058 at newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>...
> thanks that worked but I don't understand why.
> cursor.execute("SELECT * FROM mytest where address = %s",string1)
> above works but  - following your suggestion:
> cursor.execute("SELECT * FROM mytest where address = %s" % string1)
> above does not work.  So why did 
>  cursor.execute("SELECT * FROM mytest where clientID = %d" % numb)
> work???????????????
> john
> F. GEIGER wrote:
> 

>>> numb=10
>>> "SELECT * FROM mytest where clientID = %d",numb
('SELECT * FROM mytest where clientID = %d', 10)

The result of the above is a tuple, where the first value is a string
and the second one is an int.
So you call cursor.execute (..) with a two values. The first value is
'SELECT * FROM mytest where clientID = %d' which raises the
exception because %d is never an int.
What you wanted to do is to call cursor.execute (..) with one parameter,
which is a string. So as ohers pointed out you have to use Python's
formatting features to get the desired string:

>>> "SELECT * FROM mytest where clientID = %d"  % numb
'SELECT * FROM mytest where clientID = 10'

Even if your first example works from the point of view of SQL
it wouldn't give you the results, you want.

>>> string1='18 Tadlock Place'
>>> "SELECT * FROM mytest where address = %s",string1
('SELECT * FROM mytest where address = %s', '18 Tadlock Place')

That means again, your'e calling cursor.execute (..) with two parameters
where the first one - again - is 'SELECT * FROM mytest where address = %s'
So youre SQL-result should be empty, cause you surely don't have an adress
with the value %s.

So formatting it the right way and adding single quotmarks araound string1
will give you the result you want:

>>> "SELECT * FROM mytest where address = '%s'" % string1
"SELECT * FROM mytest where address = '18 Tadlock Place'"
>>> 

Regards Peter
 
> > 
> > "John Fabiani" ... [snip]


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Thu Aug  5 13:12:40 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:12:40 -0400
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1203.1091724074.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<opsb9g3hjudgjose@mail.yahoo.it>
	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051213180.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1203.1091724074.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051258000.10473-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Anthony Baxter wrote:

> On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 12:29:51 -0400, Christopher T King <squirrel at wpi.edu> wrote:
> > What does one do if a decorator raises an exception?  
> 
> def deco(func):
>       raise TypeError
> 
> @deco
> def foo():
>     print "hello"

Yes yes yes, I /know/ they are /able/ to raise exceptions.  My point was 
about handling them in a clean, concise way.

> Silently failing is completely non-pythonic.

Then let's say you want to print a warning, "Warning, type checking not 
installed!"

> If you really wanted to handle a missing decorator, something like
> missingdec = lambda x:x would do this for you.

Ick.  That doesn't fix the general case (though I admit it wouldn't come 
up too often).

> > Decorators in general are the right solution for the wrong problem (as I
> > detailed in another thread).  They are being introduced much too
> > prematurely, and have not been given time to be able to have been thought
> > through well enough.  The @ syntax is the result of trying to shoehorn too
> > many solutions into one fix.
> 
> Too prematurely?? staticmethod and classmethod were introduced in 2.2!

I'm referring to the syntax, not the decorators themselves.

> PyObjC, ctypes, Jython and IronPython can all do with using them, as can
> rather a lot of other chunks of code. Anything that applies metadata to 
> functions can use this - look at all the various places where people are 
> putting stuff in docstrings as a current hack.

Anything that applies metadata to functions can use function attributes 
much more effictively.  They're cleaner, more to the point, and are likely 
to have much less backlash than @.  Example of a previous function 
attribute proposal:

 def foo(a,b,c):
     .accepts = (int,int,int)
     .returns = str
     pass

> Or, alternately, they're another tool in the toolbox, along with
> metaclasses and the like.

It just so happens I'm not a big fan of metaclasses, either ;)



From kylotan at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 18 20:37:23 2004
From: kylotan at hotmail.com (Kylotan)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 17:37:23 -0700
Subject: firefox extension
References: <41230bcc$0$3897$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>
Message-ID: <153fa67.0408181504.283551f4@posting.google.com>

"Guyon Mor?e" <gumuz at NO_looze_SPAM.net> wrote in message news:<41230bcc$0$3897$4d4ebb8e at news.nl.uu.net>...
> is it possible to create a firefox extension in python?

I believe Firefox extensions are coded in Javascript. Download one and
take a look (they're zip files, basically).

-- 
Ben Sizer.


From wweston at att.net  Sun Aug 15 23:40:59 2004
From: wweston at att.net (wes weston)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 03:40:59 GMT
Subject: random / lists
In-Reply-To: <cformj$vso$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
References: <cfl5d1$f8p$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<zEDTc.210024$OB3.89400@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
	<cformj$vso$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <f1WTc.212995$OB3.66458@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>

M. Clift wrote:
> Hi Wes,
> 
> Thanks for responding.
> 
> What I want is a system that controls the direction in a generated list. If
> the user selects a number a letter is choosen for each number from at random
> from an array. That's fine and easy to do. The hard part is, is that no
> letter can be repeated with only one letter interveining and the letters can
> only follow each other under certain rules.
> 
>  These being :
> 1. 'a' can be followed by any letter
> 2. 'b' can only be followed by 'c'
> 3. 'c' can be followed by 'a' or 'd'
> 4 'd' can be followed by 'a' or 'c'
> 
> Really it doesn't matter what these rules are for the time being it's just
> working out a way to control the outcome of a list of unknown size. I've
> experimented with lists of say up to 10 long using ' if ' statements for
> each number and different array depending upon the previous letter, but as
> you can imagine it is no good for larger lists as the code just goes on and
> on :  ). Rather than I have done before, whereby I said if letter 3 == 'a'
> then letter 4 = choice(bcd) is it possible to say if previous letter equals
> whatever then this letter equals whatever?
> 
> Wes, if you recieved an email direct to you address I'm sorry. I must
> be tierd, as for some reaon I've been hitting the reply button all night
> instead of the reply to group!
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 

Clift,
    I think in your loop you need to have a variable, call it previousLetter,
to test the latest letter against.

previousLetter = None
for x in range(someNum):
	newLetter = someSelection()
	if not previousLetter or someTestOk( previousLetter, newLetter ):
		doYourStuff()
	previousLetter = newLetter

You might need this in your test:

 >>> ord("c")
99

to test if a character follows and by how much.

wes
wes



From Brian.Inglis at SystematicSW.Invalid  Sun Aug 29 02:58:30 2004
From: Brian.Inglis at SystematicSW.Invalid (Brian Inglis)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 06:58:30 GMT
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.29.03.59.02.719953@bar.net>
Message-ID: <25u2j0d9bfulqljo6d2jbls2v52l1jk3sd@4ax.com>

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 20:59:08 -0700 in alt.folklore.computers, Mac
<foo at bar.net> wrote:

>On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:56:06 -0700, Xah Lee wrote:
>
>> Larry Wall and Cults
>> (Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
>> 200012

>> Surely you have heard of Adolf Hitler
>> and his atrocities of genocide? I must alert you, that a single person
>> couldn't commit such a crime.
>
>Wow, Godwin's law invoked on the first post of the thread.

Not quite, no comparison was made; see: 
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=1991Oct22.140831.23313%40eff.org

-- 
Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Brian.Inglis at CSi.com 	(Brian[dot]Inglis{at}SystematicSW[dot]ab[dot]ca)
    fake address		use address above to reply


From DrColombes at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 10 12:03:00 2004
From: DrColombes at yahoo.com (Dr. Colombes)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 09:03:00 -0700
Subject: Plotting histograms, scatter plots in Python
References: <d1f3d1d3.0408061018.137b600f@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1312.1091824333.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <d1f3d1d3.0408100803.2fcd7973@posting.google.com>

John, Peter et al:

   Thanks very much for your useful tips on MathPlotLib.  

   I've begun using MatPlotLib and I like it.

   Others suggested GnuPlot, which I hope to try sometime in the
future.

   Thanks all.  This is a good example of very useful information
exchanged over an Internet newsgroup.

      Dr. Colombes 

John Hunter <jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu> wrote in message news:<mailman.1312.1091824333.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> >>>>> "Colombes" == Colombes  <DrColombes at yahoo.com> writes:
> 
>     Colombes> What is the easiest way to generate some plots and
>     Colombes> graphs in Python ?  Specifically interested in simple
>     Colombes> histograms and scatter plots with circles and regression
>     Colombes> lines.
> 
> Here's a little example of a histogram and regression plot using
> matplotlib - looks easy enough to me!  Output image at
> http://nitace.bsd.uchicago.edu:8080/files/share/demo.png
> 
>     from matplotlib.matlab import *
> 
>     x = randn(10000)  # some gaussian noise
> 
>     subplot(211)      # a subplot
>     hist(x, 100)      # make a histogram
>     grid(True)        # make an axes grid
>     ylabel('histogram')
> 
>     # now do the regression...
>     x = arange(0.0, 2.0, 0.05)
>     y = 2+ 3*x + 0.2*randn(len(x))  # y is a linear function of x + nse
> 
>     # the bestfit line from polyfit
>     m,b = polyfit(x,y,1)  # a line is 1st order polynomial...
> 
>     # plot the data with blue circles and the best fit with a thick
>     # solid black line
>     subplot(212)
>     plot(x, y, 'bo', x, m*x+b, '-k', linewidth=2)
>     ylabel('regression')
>     grid(True)       
> 
>     # save the image to hardcopy
>     savefig('demo')
>     show()


From martin at v.loewis.de  Wed Aug  4 01:12:41 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 07:12:41 +0200
Subject: Call for Grant Proposals
In-Reply-To: <41097fed$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>
References: <40fcaa90$0$27091$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<ToadnWWu8tQIgmDdRVn-uQ@giganews.com>
	<p_2dnfCS9O4GRmDdRVn-qQ@powergate.ca>
	<41097fed$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>
Message-ID: <41107049.9000502@v.loewis.de>

Maurice LING wrote:
> I have a few questions to ask about this grant and I've emailed this to 
> psf-grant at python.org but had no replies yet. Maybe someone authoritative 
> from PSF can help me out in this or anyone can put in some comments.

For some reason, I did not get your message there - although I see it
is in the psf-grants archives. I don't know how that happened - my 
apologies.

> 1. Is there a requirement to release the deliverables, including, 
> software, source codes, specifications and documentation, to the general 
> public using any of the Open Source Initiative (OSI) approved open 
> source licences?

Not necessarily. There is no requirement that the deliverables are
source code; if they aren't, OSI rules obviously don't apply.

> 2. Will there be any form of intellectual property claims, including, 
> copyrights, trade marks, patents, on any form of work generated from the 
> PSF Grant by the Python Software Foundation (PSF) or any of its 
> associates? If so, what are the precise nature of it? 

Not necessarily. Applicants can, of course, assign their copyright to
the PSF, but we can certainly fund projects which don't. If you plan to
file patents on the results, it would be good to point that out in the
proposal.

> 3. On the website (http://www.python.org/psf/call-2004.html), it is 
> stated that the project of which the grant is granted for must be 
> completed by October 30, 2005. In event of failure to meet, what will be 
> the penalities?

This should be explained in the delivery and payment plans that you
submit. It would be a good idea if partial results were available at
some point, and partial payments were made after delivery of the partial
results.

> 4. From Question 3, what constitutes partial failure or complete failure 
> of the project?

Non-delivery of deliverables.

> 5. From Question 4, it is stated on the website 
> (http://www.python.org/psf/call-2004.html) that a delivery plan is 
> essential in the proposal. How will delay in delivery affect the payment 
> plan and the grant on the whole?

You should also include a payment plan. We will not only evaluate the
delivery plan, but also the payment plan, and take the likelyhood and
the cost of failure into account when evaluating the project.

> 6. Can the PSF Grant be used to generate proprietary work and yet, 
> furthering the development of Python, Python-related technology, and 
> educational resources? An example of such is the development of a 
> proprietary Integrated Development Environment (IDE).

In principle, yes. As Tim explains, proposals will compete with each
other. We will try to evaluate how much the project serves the public,
and in particular the Python community.

Regards,
Martin


From amk at amk.ca  Mon Aug  9 11:04:45 2004
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 10:04:45 -0500
Subject: session management
References: <mailman.1346.1091937744.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <p_idna1exa0QD4rcRVn-gg@speakeasy.net>

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 14:02:14 +1000, 
	Ajay Brar <abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au> wrote:
> question is what happens when the client does not log out? what if he 
> simply leaves the website? i can put a timer on the cookie, but how do i 
> cleanup the temp files.

You'd need to run a cron job that periodically cleans up sessions that
haven't been touched in the last 8 or 24 or whatever hours.

> also, is there some python package that already does this and does not 
> require any configuration on the webserver (i dont have access to config 
> the webserver).

Most web frameworks have support for sessions; for example, Quixote's 
support is described at 
http://www.mems-exchange.org/software/quixote/doc/session-mgmt.html .

--amk


From nico at logilab.fr  Tue Aug 24 09:22:39 2004
From: nico at logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:22:39 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WE
	DONE?
References: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <slrncimg8v.16l.nico@pavo.logilab.fr>

Hi,

Le 22-08-2004, Paul McGuire <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> a ?crit?:
> Well, after 3 days of open polling, the number of additional votes have
> dropped off pretty dramatically.  Here are the results so far:
>
> Total voters: 55 (with 3 votes each)

Here is my vote, in case it can still be included.

C2 C2 J2

Concerning the choice of the keyword, I'd vote *against* decorate and for
something like predef (J2), with (C2, J2), using (C2).

Concerning the @-thingy, it's the worst proposal I have ever heard concerning
Python. Sounds too cryptic to be true... must be a joke.

I'd like to add that the EuroPython poll was clearly in favor of *not* using
the @thing in front of functions and that this poll results also said that
people would rather not include the "decorator" feature in the next
release than include it as described.

Last but not least, the best option would IMHO not to implement so-called
decorators without thinking seriously about what they are supposed to do
exactly, as title 7 says at http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators

In other words "it's getting urgent to wait".

-- 
Nicolas Chauvat

logilab.fr - services en informatique avanc?e et gestion de connaissances  


From alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 16 18:32:14 2004
From: alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 15:32:14 -0700
Subject: Anyone use VPython?
References: <8f17f4bc.0408141932.46b7c405@posting.google.com>
	<sMedne34zqQT3r3cRVn-rA@powergate.ca>
	<cfpjid$527$1@peabody.colorado.edu>
Message-ID: <8f17f4bc.0408161432.7d2d1082@posting.google.com>

Thank you all for your help.


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 16 20:58:47 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:58:47 -0400
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <DEC9FAD6-EF78-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>
References: <20040816022635.C24B71E4005@bag.python.org>
	<DEC9FAD6-EF78-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>
Message-ID: <cfrl86$uv5$1@sea.gmane.org>

Chas Emerick wrote:
> 
> On Aug 15, 2004, at 10:26 PM, Paul Morrow wrote:
> 
>> As for the Hungarian notation, I agree that in its most abused state, 
>> it can be a real mess for all sorts of reasons.   However in Python we 
>> do use a very lightweight form of that in the way we identify private 
>> and semi-private methods.
> 
> 
> Ugh.  I know, and it's one of the little things about python that I am 
> not so fond of.  It has the feel of something that GvM did in one of the 
> earliest python scripts that just ended up catching on with a wider 
> audience.  It screams 'accident', not 'designed'.  Please, no more of that.
> 

Actually, that is another good idea (IMO), borrowed from other 
languages, and therefore familiar to many veteran developers.  It's a 
simple rule to remember, so I much prefer that convention to having to 
declare (with a separate word) the visibility of a method.



From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Wed Aug 25 11:20:20 2004
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:20:20 -0700
Subject: Begginers questions on different distributions of py
In-Reply-To: <cgi7ot$f6u$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
References: <cgga5m$v1n$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<b74e43f1.0408242301.49601f30@posting.google.com>
	<cgi7ot$f6u$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <412cafd6$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

Player wrote:

> I decided to try the original Python version, but alas, pywin32 the latest
> version or build, requires python 2.2 to install, were as the latest v of
> Python is a 2.3 :(
> 
> M.B
Not really true.  the win32 extensions are now on sourceforge.
The most recent (build 202) is available for python major versions
2.2, 2.3, and 2.4.

     http://sourceforge.net/projects/pywin32/

Do a little homework with Google before asking, and certainly the
delay between this question and your later repeating of it is too
small.

-Scott David Daniels
Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org


From vronskij at post.sk  Thu Aug 19 07:55:35 2004
From: vronskij at post.sk (vronskij at post.sk)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 04:55:35 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <903b3fba.0408190355.38d07555@posting.google.com>

I am 25. 2 years flirting with Python. Started programming when I was
about
8 years old. Basic and Assemblear. High school Pascal. University C.
Now C++ and Python.

Teenage programmers fading away. I think that you are at the height of
your skills in 30's.



jan bodnar


From avner at skilldesign.com  Mon Aug  9 17:52:46 2004
From: avner at skilldesign.com (Avner Ben)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 23:52:46 +0200
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar, but for what exactly?
In-Reply-To: <4117a43b$1@news.012.net.il>
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
	<4115b53a$1@nntp0.pdx.net> <4116239e$1@news.012.net.il>
	<d111eafa.0408081949.3c28a465@posting.google.com>
	<d111eafa.0408090138.23bc6989@posting.google.com>
	<4117a43b$1@news.012.net.il>
Message-ID: <4117e58a$1@news.012.net.il>

Avner Ben wrote:
> 
> Where has the property Without Underscore come from?
> 

OK, I see now, it's the built in property().

>     Avner.


From jjl at pobox.com  Thu Aug 26 15:28:49 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 20:28:49 +0100
Subject: cookie
References: <mailman.2410.1093515779.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <oekxem1a.fsf@pobox.com>

Ajay <abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au> writes:

> hi!
> 
> i am printing a simple cookie, but instead of printing
> um=name:blah&access:admin&exp:2312390.909
> 
> its printing
> um="name:blah&access:admin&exp:2312390.909"
> 
> why the quotes?

Why not?

I don't see how they'd cause any harm.


John


From robin at reportlab.com  Wed Aug 11 13:27:07 2004
From: robin at reportlab.com (Robin Becker)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 18:27:07 +0100
Subject: staticmethod vs metaclass
Message-ID: <411A56EB.2080902@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>

A colleague wanted to initialize his class __new__ and tried code resembling this

#######################1
class Metaclass (type):
     def __init__(cls, name, bases, *args, **kwargs):
         super(Metaclass, cls).__init__(cls, name, bases, *args, **kwargs)
         print  'cls=',cls, cls.__new
         cls.__new__ = staticmethod(cls.__new)

     def __new(self,cls,*args):
         print 'new(',self,cls,args,')'
         return object.__new__(cls,*args)

class A:
     __metaclass__ = Metaclass
     def __init__(cls,*args):
         print '__init__(',cls,args,')'
A(3,4,5)
#######################
cls= <class '__main__.A'> <bound method Metaclass.__new of <class '__main__.A'>>
new( <class '__main__.A'> <class '__main__.A'> (3, 4, 5) )
__init__( <__main__.A object at 0x008D0AB0> (3, 4, 5) )
#######################

We wanted to eliminate the extra self argument in the constructed class __new__
so tried
#######################2
class Metaclass (type):
     def __init__(cls, name, bases, *args, **kwargs):
         super(Metaclass, cls).__init__(cls, name, bases, *args, **kwargs)
         print  'cls=',cls, cls.__new
         cls.__new__ = staticmethod(staticmethod(cls.__new))

     def __new(cls,*args):
         print 'new(',cls,args,')'
         return object.__new__(cls,*args)

class A:
     __metaclass__ = Metaclass
     def __init__(cls,*args):
         print '__init__(',cls,args,')'
A(3,4,5)
#######################
cls= <class '__main__.A'> <bound method Metaclass.__new of <class '__main__.A'>>
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "mmm.py", line 15, in ?
     A(3,4,5)
TypeError: 'staticmethod' object is not callable
#######################

A bit puzzling, but after thought we found both the following do what we want 
with the __new__ argument signature.
#######################3
class Metaclass (type):
     def __init__(cls, name, bases, *args, **kwargs):
         super(Metaclass, cls).__init__(cls, name, bases, *args, **kwargs)
         print  'cls=',cls, cls.__new
         cls.__new__ = staticmethod(cls.__new)

     def __new(cls,*args):
         print 'new(',cls,args,')'
         return object.__new__(cls,*args)
     __new = staticmethod(__new)

class A:
     __metaclass__ = Metaclass
     def __init__(cls,*args):
         print '__init__(',cls,args,')'
A(3,4,5)
#######################
cls= <class '__main__.A'> <function __new at 0x008D60F0>
new( <class '__main__.A'> (3, 4, 5) )
__init__( <__main__.A object at 0x008D0C10> (3, 4, 5) )
#######################

#######################4
class Metaclass (type):
     def __init__(cls, name, bases, *args, **kwargs):
         super(Metaclass, cls).__init__(cls, name, bases, *args, **kwargs)
         print  'cls=',cls, cls.__new
         cls.__new__ = cls.__new

     def __new(cls,*args):
         print 'new(',cls,args,')'
         return object.__new__(cls,*args)
     __new = staticmethod(staticmethod(__new))

class A:
     __metaclass__ = Metaclass
     def __init__(cls,*args):
         print '__init__(',cls,args,')'

A(3,4,5)
#######################
cls= <class '__main__.A'> <staticmethod object at 0x008D0B90>
new( <class '__main__.A'> (3, 4, 5) )
__init__( <__main__.A object at 0x008D0D90> (3, 4, 5) )
#######################

This does what we want in terms of the signature, but we aren't calling the 
correct super __new__, any ideas how we can do that?
-- 
Robin Becker


From jgrahn-nntq at algonet.se  Sat Aug  7 03:52:51 2004
From: jgrahn-nntq at algonet.se (Jorgen Grahn)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 07:52:51 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Importance of C#
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>
	<ce9cp3$g39$1@bagan.srce.hr> <5dydnZSDZaARoZXcRVn-ug@powergate.ca>
	<1n5z28erh2m3u.dlg@baczek.net.invalid>
	<FvCdnVnESJR0ZpXcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.921.1091114694.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<uy8l2g5ln.fsf@broadpark.no> <ep4ot1-i88.ln1@valpo.de>
	<9418be08.0407300306.673d9951@posting.google.com>
	<410A4334.9080002@v.loewis.de>
	<Xns9536968FB8EE1duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <slrnch92fk.nv3.jgrahn-nntq@frailea.sa.invalid>

On 30 Jul 2004 13:48:02 GMT, Duncan Booth <me at privacy.net> wrote:
...
> BTW, elsewhere in this thread someone said that C++ doesn't fit well into 
> .Net framework so it is worth mentioning that vs2005 also includes 
> completely revamped support for C++. Naturally this is incompatible with 
> their earlier attempt, but it really is much improved.

I suppose you mean "C++/CLI", which is a superset of ISO C++. Well, it adds
a completely new object model to the language, new keywords and everything
... so the statement "C++ doesn't fit well into .Net framework" still
applies, IMHO.

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <jgrahn@      ''If All Men Were Brothers,
\X/                algonet.se>    Would You Let One Marry Your Sister?''


From shalabh at cafepy.com  Wed Aug 18 17:58:14 2004
From: shalabh at cafepy.com (Shalabh Chaturvedi)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:58:14 -0700
Subject: Calling __init__ for all mixins
In-Reply-To: <cfvr8l$56q$1@wheel2.two14.net>
References: <cfvr8l$56q$1@wheel2.two14.net>
Message-ID: <cg0jb2$m1f$1@sea.gmane.org>

Martin Maney wrote:
> I've been to the cookbook (both forms, since they're sometimes usefully
> different), but that gave rise to more questions than answers.  Heck,
> let me pull some of them up while I'm at it.
> 
> Martelli gives the recipie (5.3 on paper) "Calling a Superclass
> __init__ Method if it Exists" where he seems to say that this:
> 
> class NewStyleOnly(A, B, C):
> 	def __init__(self):
> 		super(NewStyleOnly, self).__init__()
> 
> is the New Class Speak equivalent of
> 
> class Classic(A, B, C):
> 	def __init__(self):
> 		for base in self.__class__.__bases__:
> 			if hasattr(base, '__init__'):
> 				base.__init__(self)
> 
> but when I tried a simple test case (base classes just print a tracer
> when called), Martelli's NewStyleOnly only invoked A.__init__, as it
> was the first base class in the base list as written with an __init__
> implemented.  These seem to me to be very different.
> 

<snipped unrelated problem>

> So the reason I was turning over these stones was that I'm working on a
> subsystem where I want to compose working classes using multiple mixin
> base classes to provide different implementations for separate parts of
> the interface.  So far this is working quite nicely (1), but the
> business of calling all the mixins' __init__ functions is a bit of a
> nuisance.  Unfortunately, the solutions I've found (aside from
> Martelli's NewStyleOnly which I'm sure was only accidentally implied to
> be a solution to this problem) all seem little is any better than the
> simple and obvious method of explicitly invoking each one.  I'm not
> certain that I won't need to use that manual approach in the end, since
> the current draft has a couple of arguments to one mixin, and it's not
> clear I can eliminate them, but I would still be interested in any
> suggestions for nicer solutions to the MI __init__ problem.

The new-style super mechanism might indeed solve your problem. In the 
snippet that you mention, super(NewStyleOnly, self).__init__() would 
only call A.__init__(). But A.__init__ should itself have a super call 
of the form:

def __init__(self):
     super(A, self).__init__()   # A's super call

Now *that* will call B.__init__(), which should itself have a super call 
of the form - you guessed it:

def __init__(self):
     super(B, self).__init__()

Which will call C.__init__(). And so on. Also note that super() will 
work correctly in the case you had a class:

class AnotherClass(A, C):
     def __init__(self):
         super(NewStyleOnly, self).__init__()

In this case, A's super call would call C.__init__(). Nice, huh?

This is the cooperative super call technique explained in the following 
places:

http://www.python.org/2.2.3/descrintro.html#cooperation
http://www.cafepy.com/articles/python_attributes_and_methods/ch02.html

Any class wanting to participate in this technique must be new-style.

Cheers,
Shalabh



From pinard at iro.umontreal.ca  Mon Aug 23 12:38:39 2004
From: pinard at iro.umontreal.ca (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois?= Pinard)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:38:39 -0400
Subject: Decorator keyword options
In-Reply-To: <7knVc.4599$Jn5.3074@fe1.texas.rr.com>
References: <7knVc.4599$Jn5.3074@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20040823163838.GA8036@titan.progiciels-bpi.ca>

[Paul McGuire]
> Thanks to everyone who has voted so far - please keep them coming!  Lurkers,
> this means you!

OK!  Here is my vote:

         J2 J2 J2

It might look like not much nuanced, but the nuances I had disappeared
after the reduction of plausible winners, as shown with the current
tallies.  My vote is merely to strengthen statistics a little more. :-)

-- 
Fran?ois Pinard   http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard


From nir1408 at ziaran.org  Thu Aug  5 06:38:00 2004
From: nir1408 at ziaran.org (ziaran)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 13:38:00 +0300
Subject: AVI I/O
Message-ID: <41120e31$1@news.bezeqint.net>

Hello,

I want to use Python for Image proccessing.
I need the following capabilities:

1. To be able to read and WRITE an AVI file frame by frame.
2. To be able to access each fram as a simple matrix.

I tried to search for that in google but could not find something 
intuitive and simple.

The matrices part is important since iamge processing is done through 
matrices manipulation.

MATLAB is an example of a tool with scripting capabilities in which you 
can do that in a simple way.

Is Python adequate for that?

Thanks,
Nir


From danb_83 at yahoo.com  Sat Aug  7 22:26:57 2004
From: danb_83 at yahoo.com (Dan Bishop)
Date: 7 Aug 2004 19:26:57 -0700
Subject: Decorators
References: <%A8Rc.50217$Vm1.1280580@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <ad052e5c.0408071826.29f1bfb0@posting.google.com>

"Colin J. Williams" <cjw at sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<%A8Rc.50217$Vm1.1280580 at news20.bellglobal.com>...
> Christopher T. King suggested that "we're trying to kill too many birds 
> with one stone".
>  
> http://groups.google.com/groups?q=stone+birds+group:comp.lang.python&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=Pine.LNX.4.44.0408050856390.31290-100000%40ccc9.wpi.edu&rnum=1
> 
> He goes on to suggest three needs which decorators serve.  Are these the 
> only purposes which are envisaged for decorators?

If I understand correctly, they'd be useful for anything where you'd
now use the syntax

function = decorator(function)

In addition to @staticmethod, you could have decorators for

(1) Memoization.  Makes repeated function evaluation more efficient
without having to rewrite the function.

class memoize(object):
   def __init__(self, func):
      self.__func = func
      self.__results = {}
   def __call__(self, *args):
      if args not in self.__results:
         self.__results[args] = self.__func(*args)
      return self.__results[args]

def fibonacci(n):
   @memoize
   if n in (0, 1):
      return n
   return fibonacci(n - 1) + fibonacci(n - 2)

(2) Debugging uses, like:

class printreturns(object):
   "Behaves like f but prints its return values."
   def __init__(self, f):
      self.__f = f
   def __call__(self, *args):
      result = self.__f(*args)
      if debug:
         print 'f%r = %r' % (args, result)
      return 

def somefunc(x, y):
   @printreturns
   ...


From vincent at visualtrans.de  Fri Aug  6 13:16:49 2004
From: vincent at visualtrans.de (vincent wehren)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 19:16:49 +0200
Subject: Unicode support
In-Reply-To: <cf0698$nm1@odah37.prod.google.com>
References: <cf0698$nm1@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <cf0ee0$k2k$1@news1.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>

Richy2004 wrote:

> code:
> import sys,codecs
> file = codecs.open("accountmgr_words_arb.txt", "r", "utf-16")
> print (file.readline())
> 
> output:
> File "./test.py", line 5, in ?
> print (file.readline())
> File "C:\Python23\lib\codecs.py", line 384, in readline
> return self.reader.readline(size)
> File "c:\Python23\lib\encodings\utf_16.py", line 57, in readline
> raise NotImplementedError, '.readline() is not implemented for
> UTF-16'
> NotImplementedError: .readline() is not implemented for UTF-16
> 
> ======================================================
> code:
> import sys, codecs
> file = codecs.open("accountmgr_words_arb.txt", "r", "utf-16")
> print (file.read())
> 
> output:
> Traceback (most recent call last):
> File "./test.py", line 5, in ?
> print (file.read())
> File "c:\Python23\lib\encodings\cp850.py", line 18, in encode
> return codecs.charmap_encode(input,errors,encoding_map)
> UnicodeEncodeError: 'charmap' codec can't encode characters in position
> 0-2: character maps to <undefined>
> 
> ======================================================
> code:
> import sys, codecs
> file = codecs.open("accountmgr_words_arb.txt", "rb", "utf-16")
> lines = file.readlines()
> print lines

> this works !, output:
> [u'\u0646\u0648\u0639 \u062d\u0633\u0627\u0628 \u062c\u062f\u064a\u062f
> \u0645\u062e\u062a\u0627\u0631.\r\n']

You understand this is just one line, and not multiple lines? Just 
checking. The reason why it works is that you are getting a 
representation of the list.

> line = lines[0]
> tokens = line.split("\\u")
This line doesn't make sense. Do you want to split up the line into a 
list of individual characters as in:
 >> tokens = list(lines[0])
 >> print tokens
[u'\u0646', u'\u0648', u'\u0639', u'\u062d', u'\u0633', u'\u0627', 
u'\u0628', u'\u062c', u'\u062f', u'\u064a', u'\u062f', u'\u0645', 
u'\u062e', u'\u062a', u'\u0627', u'\u0631', u'.', u'\r', u'\n']


> print tokens[0]
> 
> I get this: :(
> Traceback (most recent call last):
> File "./test.py", line 8, in ?
> print tokens[0]
> File "c:\Python23\lib\encodings\cp850.py", line 18, in encode
> return codecs.charmap_encode(input,errors,encoding_map)
> UnicodeEncodeError: 'charmap' codec can't encode characters in position
> 0-2: character maps to <undefined>

Anyway, you are trying to print to the console window. AFAIK, Python 2.3 
guesses the console encoding, which in your case is cp850.py, and uses 
it as single- byte encoding to encode your unicode characters before 
writing them to stdout. Unfortunately, you cannot print which I believe 
are Arabic characters to a CP850 encoded console (as a matter of fact, 
you can't print any of the so-called 'complex scripts' to any windows 
console, but that is a different matter).

If you run the same script in a lets say, IDLE you won't have that 
problem. In other words, if you need to print these characters, you have 
to either print them as unicode characters to a unicode-savy output, or 
encode them  in an appropriate single-byte encoding (e.g. "cp1256") and 
output them to an output window that nows how to deal with it.

--
Vincent Wehren
> 
> Thanks,
> Richard
> 


From a.neudecker at uni-bonn.de  Mon Aug  9 11:21:56 2004
From: a.neudecker at uni-bonn.de (Andreas Neudecker)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 17:21:56 +0200
Subject: Find out the file name of a module from inside the module?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1391.1092058870.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <cf7u7d$npu$1@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
	<mailman.1391.1092058870.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cf84qk$seq$1@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>

Danke, Christian! Hat mir sehr geholfen! :-)


Gru?


Andreas


Christian Tismer schrieb:
> Andreas Neudecker wrote:
> 
>> Hi.
>>
>> I know you can read the filename of a program as sys.argv[0]. But what 
>> about modules? Is there a similar way to find out the file name of a 
>> module (called by some other module or program) from inside this module?
> 
> 
> If your modules knows that it is a module, it can inspect its
> __file__ attribute.
> You can find out whether you have been imported by testing
> whether there is a __file__ attribute, otherwise you are
> probably executed, and there is no name available.
> 
> try:
>     fname = __file__
> except NameError:
>     fname = "?"
> 
> In cases where you absolutely need a file name, and if you know
> that you are also used as a module, you can of course import
> yourself, in order to get the file name. This implies the need
> to know your module name, which doesn't make things so much better:
> 
> # assuming this is MyModule
> import MyModule
> fname = MyModule.__file__
> del MyModule
> 
> Or even shorter:
> 
> from MyModule import __file__ as fname
> 
> ciao - chris


From bockman at virgilio.it  Sun Aug 22 06:34:13 2004
From: bockman at virgilio.it (Francesco Bochicchio)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 10:34:13 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WE
	DONE?
References: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.22.10.34.12.805538@virgilio.it>

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 02:53:09 +0000, Paul McGuire wrote:

> Please start giving some thought to what the 'decorate' keyword should be.
> If we can get/keep this selection to a manageable list, then we should have
> another multivote some time next week.
> 

If you are still open to lurkers suggestions, I'm partial to syntax that
can be read like common language (this is one reason why I like Python and
I mildly dislike the @ sintax). Therefore I would like to suggest
to use in J2 keywords like 'using' or 'with', which also hint to the fact
that this is only the first part of a declaration suite that will  be
continued by the 'def' statement. 

Ciao
-------
FB



From artur_spruce at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 10 18:46:18 2004
From: artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 15:46:18 -0700
Subject: pep-318 questions
References: <HBF.20040808xui@bombur.uio.no>
	<mailman.1465.1092157434.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b840abf4.0408101446.5020d8f2@posting.google.com>

Skip Montanaro <skip at pobox.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1465.1092157434.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> <snip>
> I think Guido pronounced on this over the weekend.  He stated that
> decorators don't belong indented with the code, even at the beginning.  In
> fact, he commented that in retrospect he feels that doc strings belong
> outside the function as well.  (Of course, that would present a practical
> conflict between a module's doc string and that of the first executable code
> in the module file should it happen to be a function definition.  But I
> digress...)

The nice thing about the @decor syntax is that it might be easy to
extend it to @"""Docstring""" - "decorate" a function (or class) with
the docstring if the decorator expression is a string literal instead
of an expression.

I prefer in-body docstrings though. While function decorators should
be well visible - they may do important changes to function's behavior
- the docstring is of secondary importance, only needed when we don't
know/remember what the function/class does (and hence should also fold
easily in a folding editor).

> <snip>
> Nobody has so far been able to come up with a single keyword that seems to
> connote "this is a decorator function that is to be applied to the next
> function definition".

And '@' does good job of it - it stands out well. Plus, it's a
decorated 'a' in many fonts :)

AdSR


From just at xs4all.nl  Mon Aug 30 09:03:58 2004
From: just at xs4all.nl (Just)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 15:03:58 +0200
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<1LMXc.67190$UTP.37420@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj7a9r.g7ec5a1g89rj0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<m3wtzk4562.fsf@g2ctech.com>
	<just-18D650.10163828082004@news1.news.xs4all.nl>
	<m3sma5zqx0.fsf@g2ctech.com>
	<just-BA4B64.22210729082004@news1.news.xs4all.nl>
	<m3oektzkj2.fsf@g2ctech.com>
	<just-498748.08324330082004@news1.news.xs4all.nl>
	<m3ekloont2.fsf@g2ctech.com>
Message-ID: <just-273E92.15035830082004@news1.news.xs4all.nl>

In article <m3ekloont2.fsf at g2ctech.com>, Jorge Godoy <godoy at ieee.org> 
wrote:

> > How does that follow? The zip archive _itself_ is the "directory" where 
> > the .py files are, why would Python suddenly choose to write .pyc files 
> > one level up? And what about packages? It simply doesn't work that way.
> 
> Because the implementation that allowed to unzip the "directory" and
> find the files in there would also allow to place the '.pyc' in a
> different place such as the real directory where the zip file resides.
> 
> Python didn't use to open zip files also, and now it does.  I don't see
> nothing wrong with making it also writing the '.pyc' files.  Do you? 

Yes, because it's conceptually inconsistent with how "regular" imports 
work.

Just


From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 09:22:33 2004
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 06:22:33 -0700
Subject: XMLObject - problem with recursive definitions
References: <6f402501.0408222323.5fd81b2a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <6f402501.0408230522.7172314b@posting.google.com>

Apparently this has already been fixed - and a new release will be
made in the next couple of days with this fixed....

I'm just surprised it wasn't my fault :-)

Fuzzy



fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord) wrote in message news:<6f402501.0408222323.5fd81b2a at posting.google.com>...
> I've been using the excellent XMLObject and have unfortunately come up
> against what *looks* to me like a bug - although it's very possible
> that the problem is  mine  !!
> 
> I want to use XML object to create an XML structure that represents
> the contents of a directory structure. I call it a DirObj. Each DirObj
> needs a list node that can itself contaibn several more DirObj -
> effectively a 'recursive' definition.
> 
> It looks something like this :
> 
> class XMLDirObj(XMLObject):
>     """An XMLObject version of a DirObj."""
>     attrs = ItemNode('DirAttributes')
>     files = ListNode('XMLFileObj')
>     dirs = ListNode('XMLDirObj')
> 
> A DirAttributes object is an object representing the set of attributes
> of the directory, an XMLFileObj is an object representing the set of
> attributes of each file in the directory. Unfortunately when I use the
> toXml and then the (classmethod) fromXml it mangles the values. (on
> the read).
> 
> I've written a small test script with the simplest possible recursive
> use of XMLObject and it doesn't appear to work. I wondered if this was
> actually a bug - or whether I was doing something wrong. My test
> script is below and from the sample output you'll see the error and
> the assert failure at the bottom. The first print is ok (toXml) - but
> then it reads it incorrectly (the second print).
> 
> Ouput :
> 
> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1" ?>
> <thing abit="Hello My Friend">
>   <thing abit="Recursion Test">
>     <anotherthing abit="Yo Again"/>
>   </thing>
>   <anotherthing abit="Yo"/>
> </thing>
> 
> 
> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1" ?>
> <thing abit="Hello My Friend">
>   <thing abit="Recursion Test">
>     <anotherthing abit="Yo Again"/>
>   </thing>
>   <anotherthing abit="Yo Again"/>
> </thing>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "D:\Python Projects\dirwatcher\rec_test.py", line 67, in ?
>     assert thestuff == thestuff2
> AssertionError
> 
> 
> ####################
> 
> 
> """
> rec_test.py
> 
> Demonstrates that recursion fails using XMLObject
> 
> :-(
> 
> """
> 
> 
> from XMLObject import *
> 
> 
> ########################################################################
> 
> 
> class Thing(XMLObject):
>     place = ItemNode('Anotherthing')
>     anotherplace = ListNode('Thing')
>     abit = CDATAttribute(optional=True)
> 
> class Anotherthing(XMLObject):
>     abit = CDATAttribute(optional=True)
> 
> 
> ########################################################################
> # Test Function
> 
> if __name__=='__main__':
>     test1 = Thing()
>     test1.abit = 'Hello My Friend'
>     athing = Anotherthing()
>     athing.abit = 'Yo'
>     test1.place = athing
>    
>     test2 = Thing()
>     test2.abit = 'Recursion Test'
>     athing2 = Anotherthing()
>     athing2.abit = 'Yo Again'
>     test2.place = athing2
>    
>     test1.anotherplace.append(test2)
>    
>     thestuff =  test1.toXml()
>     print thestuff
>    
>     testobj = Thing.fromXml(thestuff)
>     thestuff2 = testobj.toXml()
>    
>     print
>     print
>     print thestuff2
>    
>     assert thestuff == thestuff2
> #####################################
> 
> If anyone can see what I've done wrong it would be much appreciated.
> (I've emailed the author - but as it's probably my fault I thought I'd
> post here as well).
> 
> 
> Regards, 
> 
> Fuzzy
> 
> 
>     
> 
> -- 
> 
> http://www.Voidspace.org.uk 
> The Place where headspace meets cyberspace. Online resource site -
> covering science, technology, computing, cyberpunk, psychology,
> spirituality, fiction and more.
> 
> ---
> http://www.Voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html
> Python utilities, modules and apps.
> Including Nanagram, Dirwatcher and more.
> ---
> http://www.fuchsiashockz.co.uk   
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/void-shockz
> ---
> 
> Everyone has talent. What is rare is the courage to follow talent
>  to the dark place where it leads. -Erica Jong
> Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy.
>          -Milan Kundera


From ville at spammers.com  Tue Aug  3 06:06:59 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 03 Aug 2004 13:06:59 +0300
Subject: automatic delegation
References: <HBF.20040803b8y6@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <du7hdrkzgak.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "h.b.furuseth" == Hallvard B Furuseth <h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no> writes:

    h.b.furuseth> Is it possible to write a metaclass or something so that
    h.b.furuseth> with a class definition not much larger than this:

    h.b.furuseth> class foo:
    h.b.furuseth>   def __init__(self, val): self.val = val

    h.b.furuseth> operations on a foo instance f will be applied to f.val?
    h.b.furuseth> E.g. str(f) -> f.__str__() -> f.val.__str__().

http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/52295

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From mcfletch at rogers.com  Mon Aug 23 14:27:48 2004
From: mcfletch at rogers.com (Mike C. Fletcher)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:27:48 -0400
Subject: 100 % portable ?
In-Reply-To: <1f7befae0408231057a376ac6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <rp_Vc.221989$xO.10939509@phobos.telenet-ops.be>	<sl1nv1-7jm.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<2otm5mFed44hU1@uni-berlin.de>	<slrncikbc9.251.davecook@localhost.localdomain>
	<1f7befae0408231057a376ac6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <412A3724.70400@rogers.com>

Tim Peters wrote:

>[Bernd Kaiser]
>  
>
>>>You can use os.environ["HOME"], this will return the user's home dir.
>>>      
>>>
See this old thread:
http://groups.google.ca/groups?threadm=mailman.1140.1075749926.12720.python-list%40python.org

The OpenGLContext code should work for Win98, 2K, and XP, maybe for 
Win95 and NT too, but I don't have them for testing.

Enjoy,
Mike

________________________________________________
  Mike C. Fletcher
  Designer, VR Plumber, Coder
  http://www.vrplumber.com
  http://blog.vrplumber.com



From 1stpoint at zmailbox.net  Mon Aug  2 15:01:15 2004
From: 1stpoint at zmailbox.net (1stpoint)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 15:01:15 -0400
Subject: py2exe and os.popen
Message-ID: <94737de0df0675e750e306af1ae2e475@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>

After several attempts at solving this problem I thought I would ask the
gurus.

I wrote a python/wxPython application that calls os.popen to get
information from another executable.  Basically this is a cute GUI app to
front end a commercial product.

The app works fine when I run it as a .py or .pyw application.  But after
I build it to a .exe with py2exe and run it, it does not work.  I put a
print statement after the 1st os.popen call:
        for line in os.popen(c,'rb').readlines():
	     self.components.Project.items+=[line.rstrip()]
	print 'items=',self.components.Project.item

Is this due to a stdin issue with win32?



From mauriceling at acm.org  Mon Aug  2 19:53:53 2004
From: mauriceling at acm.org (Maurice Ling)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 09:53:53 +1000
Subject: Call for Grant Proposals
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed20408020146417cca41@mail.gmail.com>
References: <40fcaa90$0$27091$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>	<ToadnWWu8tQIgmDdRVn-uQ@giganews.com>	<p_2dnfCS9O4GRmDdRVn-qQ@powergate.ca>
	<41097fed$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>
	<e69d3ed2040802004962f99d8a@mail.gmail.com>
	<410DF640.4010307@acm.org>
	<e69d3ed204080201087beb6bf1@mail.gmail.com>
	<410DF824.8070309@acm.org>
	<e69d3ed20408020146417cca41@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <410ED411.7090907@acm.org>

Anthony Baxter wrote:

>>I do agree that open source != hobbyist and I can hear screams already.
>>What I'm trying to say is that the wordings of this call for proposal on
>>the webpage is probably alright for hobbyist projects but can't face the
>>scrutiny of the corporate world.
>>    
>>
>
>I'm really not sure what you mean. Plenty of people in "the corporate world"
>do open source. Plenty of people in "the corporate world" make money from
>open source. 
>
No doubt that people are making money from open source but equivalently, 
the same people may be making money from closed source. I'm arguing that 
the wordings of this grant is not clear, to the point that we do not 
know if this grant is applicable to us.

>If the terms for the grants are that the project be open source,
>how is this a problem? 
>
Then it will means that some projects may not be able to apply for this 
grant if it is the requirement of the project to be proprietary due to 
business strategy. What you are saying is that all projects should be 
open sourced but that may not be the case. Either that or you are 
indiscriminately lobbying for the cause of open source irregards of 
whether companies are ready for it or not, and then discriminating 
against companies who are not ready for it yet. Although I support open 
source development and had personally donated my work to Sourceforge and 
Biopython project, I will think that it is tyrannic to assume all work 
must be open sourced.

>It simply means that the person or organisation who
>applies for the grants has to factor that element into their calculations. 
>  
>
Without knowing the elements, how am I going to convince anyone on that? 
I'm not omnipotent.

>Any company in 2004 who is still working in a mode that open source is 
>some strange thing that isn't used 'in the real world' is probably slow-moving
>roadkill.
>
>  
>
As mentioned above, parts of the work by my organization had been 
donated to public cause, including Biopython project and large public 
institutions like NCBI. Even the Online Mendelian Inheritance of Animals 
(OMIA) database was initially developed by people in my organization. As 
far as I know, some work precipitating to masters degrees had been made 
open sourced. So, please refrain from making harsh conclusions. Having 
said that, there is always a rubber-stamping process before an open 
sourced decision is made. But the wordings and inexactness of this call 
for grant proposal makes it hard for me even to get to convince my 
people that we should put in an application, not mentioning the 
rubber-stamping.

Cheers
Maurice
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From lbates at swamisoft.com  Mon Aug  9 09:19:30 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 08:19:30 -0500
Subject: python and win32 dlls
References: <mailman.1386.1092054829.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <FL2dnT-tl7EX4YrcRVn-tw@comcast.com>

Another solution that I wrote and have used
extensively:

http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/146847

Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.

"fgrillo64" <fgrillo64 at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1386.1092054829.5135.python-list at python.org...
> Hi guys,
> i need help from the comunity ; i wrote under Windows2000 os a dll
> having several symbols exported .
> Now i would like to call these symbols from a python program .
> Can anyone tell me how from a python module is possible to call
> the dll exported symbols ?
> thanks a lot , Francesco .
>




From roeder at berg.net  Sat Aug 14 10:00:29 2004
From: roeder at berg.net (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Maik_R=F6der?=)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:00:29 +0200
Subject: Seperating CSV rows into new, seperate files
In-Reply-To: <d28d42ec.0408131940.3b95e9bd@posting.google.com>
References: <d28d42ec.0408131940.3b95e9bd@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <411E1AFD.20006@berg.net>

Hi TobyB,

> Hi,
> I've searched the group and need more information and guidance on this
> issue I need to resolve next week. I work for the local school system
> and I am working on a way to parse a CSV file of class lists from MS
> Excel.  It is a ~2MB file with all teachers and all their classes in
> it.  I thought I would use Python to do this since many people I know
> tell me how great it is. 

Pyhton is a good choice for treating texts.

> The real sticking point is there are
> duplicates of each teacher's classes embedded in the file (don't ask
> why).  I want to break up the source file into the seperate class
> files without duplication and use the teachers name, coursecode and
> section in the filename.
> 
> Example Data:
> Last Name	First Name	Grade	Period	Teacher Name	
> SMITH           JOHN	         8      1	JONES	SALLY
> 
> Student ID		Course Code	Course Title	
> 12345678	        1234	         ALGEBRA I
> 
> Course Section	Session
> 1	        0
> 
> 
> The course code and section number are the same in the duplicate
> classes.  The difference is that the session number changes.   I'm
> thinking that I will need to somehow iterate through the lines and
> break the class when the course code changes and/or section change
> (course codes can be the same but section numbers change with each
> class).  Then I have to monitor the session number to see if there is
> a duplicate course code and section but a different session number
> would indicate that the class is a duplicate. Essentially, the session
> number will be 0, 1, or 2 for a total of three lists of the same
> class. Hopefully that makes sense.  Again don't ask why the data is
> like this.
> 
> My humble attempts have not been very successful.  I've been trying
> the csv modules to read the file but I am not sure how to procede
> after that.
> 
> Any guidance is greatly appreciated.

Use Python lists and dictionaries.

Best regards,

Maik R?der




From jbors at mail.ru  Thu Aug 26 19:54:08 2004
From: jbors at mail.ru (Dmitry Borisov)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:54:08 -0700
Subject: Sound file manipulation in Python
References: <uu0upzj72.fsf@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <10isu157sfk3c2@corp.supernews.com>

"Paul Moore" <pf_moore at yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:uu0upzj72.fsf at yahoo.co.uk...
> Does anyone know of a Python library which handles sound file formats
> (MP3, Ogg, FLAC are the three I'm nost interested in). I'd like
> something that can manipulate "metadata" - stuff like artist, title,
> album tags. I'm not critically interested in format conversion, or
> playing sound files - I can handle that with other applications.
>
> I'm using Windows, and Python 2.3, if it matters (as it might for C
> extensions).
>
> I can manage with just reading the metadata, but ideally writing
> would be useful, too. Multiple libraries is OK, but I need something
> more than just MP3.
>
> If there's nothing available for Python, does anyone know of a good C
> library that could be wrapped? (Or used via ctypes, maybe).
>

You may try to use pymedia: http://pymedia.sourceforge.net
There is no writing at this point( but you may add it though ), also FLAC
not supported also.
If you need writing you may need to use ffmpeg/libavformat for that...

Dmitry/




From theller at python.net  Wed Aug 18 12:43:09 2004
From: theller at python.net (Thomas Heller)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:43:09 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<41237124.4060600@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<r7q4s9yy.fsf@python.net> <41238374.3060105@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
Message-ID: <d61os8gy.fsf@python.net>

Robin Becker <robin at reportlab.com> writes:

> Thomas Heller wrote:
>
>> Robin Becker <robin at reportlab.com> writes:
>>
>>>Lucas Raab wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
>>>>Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
>>>>about....
>>>>
>>>
>>>57, used to build my own logic using gas discharge tubes :)
>> 48, but my first logic was build using 24V relays.
>
> yea I also did stuff with relays and strowger telephone switches, far
> more exciting than billions of fet transistors simulating an electric
> fire :)

Maybe.  My ring counter with 12 relays or so ran at a frequency of about
5 Hertz, after a week of drilling and soldering, nowadays I could desing
ring counters running at hundreds or maybe even thousends of MHz, use a
1.7 V supply, only by entering some VHDL code (*) at the computer,
compiling and downloading it to an FPGA.

But the FPGA doesn't make the same noise ;-)

(*) I have still to try Jan Decaluwe's (sp?) MyHDL to create the
ringcounter, or even more complicated things, with Python.


From ramen at lackingtalent.com  Thu Aug 19 11:35:25 2004
From: ramen at lackingtalent.com (Dave Benjamin)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:35:25 -0000
Subject: Jython and super_reload?
References: <slrnci73a9.nj3.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
	<412458a6$0$45379$e4fe514c@dreader19.news.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <slrnci9j4f.q6f.ramen@lackingtalent.com>

In article <412458a6$0$45379$e4fe514c at dreader19.news.xs4all.nl>, Ype Kingma wrote:
> 
> This works for classes: 
> 
> http://www.jython.org/docs/jreload.html
> 
> You can unload a module in Jython by removing it from sys.modules,
> and (off course) by removing all other references to it.
> 
> To be sure about what happens you can tell the JVM to be verbose
> about garbage collection of Java classes, and explicitly call
> java.lang.System.gc() in some test scripts.

Thanks for the link and the comments, but I don't think this is quite what
I'm trying to do here. I'm not trying to reload Java classes, I'm trying to
reload Python modules such that any instances of the old version of that
module's classes get updated to use the new methods. For instance:

mymod.py
--------
class A:
    def test(self):
        print 'hello'

app
---
import mymod
a = A()
a.test()
(output: 'hello')

mymod.py
--------
class A:
    def test(self):
        print 'goodbye'

app
---
reload(mymod)
a.test()
(output: still 'hello')

# This is what I've been unable to accomplish:
from magic import super_reload
super_reload(mymod)
a.test()
(output: 'goodbye')

Does that make sense? The end result is that I want to be able to modify
classes in a running application and have this affect all existing class
instances. This is important because I am working in an application server
environment where restarts are costly and time-consuming, and instances are
often kept in user sessions. Currently, any changes to a class require that
the session be reinitialized (ie. you have to log out and log back in),
which makes incremental testing and development awkward. 

Thanks!
Dave

-- 
 .:[ dave benjamin: ramen/[sp00] -:- spoomusic.com -:- ramenfest.com ]:.
        "talking about music is like dancing about architecture."


From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Mon Aug  9 20:13:46 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 17:13:46 -0700
Subject: Purely emotional perspective
In-Reply-To: <vk2gh0t3u19bc7e3gqvkgieho2hdppc44e@4ax.com>
References: <10hf3oaltbo7o74@corp.supernews.com>
	<AYSdnQ2xPrfFPYrcRVn-iA@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1400.1092070428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<XqSdnTW-4KvRIIrcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
	<pan.2004.08.09.21.20.59.953540@hotmail.com>
	<10hg1hg1pidqs96@corp.supernews.com>
	<vk2gh0t3u19bc7e3gqvkgieho2hdppc44e@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <10hg4p0988ocgf0@corp.supernews.com>

Arthur wrote:

>>I'm particularly worried about the proposals of using this as metadata 
>>for things like author -- that seems to be begging for almost every 
>>function to use half a dozen or more decorators (accepts, returns, 
>>author, design date, last revision date, etc., etc.) which will (IMO) 
>>seriously degrade code readability.  (This syntax is okay for one or two 
>>decorators, but more than that quickly becomes obfuscatory.)
>>    
>>
>
>But isn't that so of any of the alternative syntaxes.  Looks to me as
>if it is." Looks" as in "that is what my eyes tell me".
>  
>

Like I said, I can see the reasons why the alternatives are being 
rejected.  But while I can see why those are being rejected, I'm not 
seeing this one as all that much better -- which suggests to *me* that 
maybe they should *all* be rejected.

I understand that decorators are beneficial.  I understand that "Now is 
better than never."  But I can't help but *also* think that "...never is 
often better than *right* now."  Sometimes *not* including a useful 
feature is better than including it in an ungainly or awkward way.  
(This seems, to my mind, to be especially true of features that are 
principally syntactic sugar, as it seems that @decorators are.)

I know that this has been being discussed for a long time, and nobody's 
come up with a better syntax.  But I remain unconvinced that the 
@-syntax is a significant enough improvement over the current 
(rebind-after-function-body) syntax to warrant a significant change in 
the way that Python code will be structured. 

(It seems, however, that GvR *is* convinced of that very thing, so all 
of this is just whistling in the wind...)

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From ndeskins at ecn.purdue.edu  Tue Aug 17 09:50:31 2004
From: ndeskins at ecn.purdue.edu (Aaron Deskins)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:50:31 -0500
Subject: Newbie question about file input
In-Reply-To: <cfqj3s$cti$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
References: <cfqj3s$cti$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
Message-ID: <cft2f9$ii0$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>

Ok everyone,
    Thanks again for all the input. I rewrote the code and have included 
some more routines. Basically the program takes a pgn file with all the 
chess games and randomizes them and spits out a new pgn file. It is 
below. Hopefully I was able to get the spacing right. :)

    Also, what exactly is stored when a blank line is read by the 
readline command? A zero, blank, or what??? What is the difference 
between trying to read a non-existant line (i.e. a line at the end of 
the file) and a blank line (line with nothing on it)?

  Thanks again.



pgn-rand.py:

#! /usr/bin/env python
import string
import sys
import random

random.seed

# Find number of games, it
zf=open(sys.argv[1],'r')
it = 0
while 1:
     line = zf.readline()
     if line.startswith("[Event"):
         it+=1
     if not line:
         break
zf.close()

# Initialize order which has list of games
a = 0
order = [1]
while a < it-1:
     order.append(a+2)
     a+=1

# Randomize game list 4x
a=0
while a < 4*it:
     one = random.randint(0,it-1)
     two = random.randint(0,it-1)
     temp = order[one]
     order[one]=order[two]
     order[two]=temp
     a+= 1

# Output to new pgn file in new order
out=open(sys.argv[2],'w')
a=0
while a < it:
     curr=0
     zf=open(sys.argv[1],'r')
     while 1:
         line = zf.readline()
         if line.startswith("[Event"):
             curr+= 1
         if order[a] == curr:
             out.write(line)
         if not line:
             break
     zf.close()
     a+=1
out.close()

-- 
Aaron Deskins
Graduate Student
Chemical Engineering
Purdue University


From vwehren at home.nl  Fri Aug  6 02:59:54 2004
From: vwehren at home.nl (Vincent Wehren)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 08:59:54 +0200
Subject: PEP 263 status check
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com> <4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de>
	<10h5hgvpafm8a64@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <ceva4g$5k0$1@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>


"John Roth" <newsgroups at jhrothjr.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:10h5hgvpafm8a64 at news.supernews.com...
|
| "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote in message
| news:4112AB53.6010701 at v.loewis.de...
| > John Roth wrote:
| > > PEP 263 is marked finished in the PEP index, however
| > > I haven't seen the specified Phase 2 in the list of changes
| > > for 2.4 which is when I expected it.
| > >
| > > Did phase 2 get cancelled, or is it just not in the
| > > changes document?
| >
| > Neither, nor. Although this hasn't been discussed widely,
| > I personally believe it is too early yet to make lack of
| > encoding declarations a syntax error. I'd like to
| > reconsider the issue with Python 2.5.
| >
| > OTOH, not many people have commented either way: would you
| > be outraged if a script that has given you a warning about
| > missing encoding declarations for some time fails with a
| > strict SyntaxError in 2.4? Has everybody already corrected
| > their scripts?
|
| Well, I don't particularly have that problem because I don't
| have a huge number of scripts and for the ones I do it would be
| relatively simple to do a scan and update - or just run them
| with the unit tests and see if they break!

Here's another thought: the company I work for uses (embedded) Python as
scripting language
for their report writer (among other things). Users can add little scripts
to their document templates which are used for printing database data. This
means, there are literally hundreds of little Python scripts embeddeded
within the document templates, which themselves are stored in whatever
database is used as the backend. In such a case, "scan and update" when
upgrading gets a little more complicated ;)

|
| In fact, I think that a scan and update program in the tools
| directory might be a very good idea - just walk through a
| Python library, scan and update everything that doesn't
| have a declaration.
|
| The issue has popped in and out of my awareness a few
| times, what brought it up this time was Hallvard's thread.
|
| My specific question there was how the code handles the
| combination of UTF-8 as the encoding and a non-ascii
| character in an 8-bit string literal. Is this an error? The
| PEP does not say so. If it isn't, what encoding will
| it use to translate from unicode back to an 8-bit
| encoding?

Isn't this covered by:

       "Embedding of differently encoded data is not allowed and will
       result in a decoding error during compilation of the Python
       source code."

--
Vincent Wehren


|
| Another project for people who care about this
| subject: tools. Of the half zillion editors, pretty printers
| and so forth out there, how many check for the encoding
| line and do the right thing with it? Which ones need to
| be updated?
|
| John Roth
| >
| > Regards,
| > Martin
|
|




From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Aug 27 12:59:11 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 12:59:11 -0400
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgnp8v$ct2$1@panix3.panix.com>

All right, with the caveat that I'd prefer C1, I'm voting FOR.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Sat Aug 14 15:24:51 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 19:24:51 GMT
Subject: PEP318
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<20040812090056.00001e31@titan>
	<7ttmh0t8c3cogtbhhnp1ohqu8b51pda461@4ax.com>
	<roy-DC33F4.12335012082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<k98nh0pfqsedoisj6ou0rm85a9ir4t7a0v@4ax.com>
	<mailman.1586.1092379388.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <u3psh01caf78qblml981e9tq2foa25umch@4ax.com>

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:43:05 +1000, Anthony Baxter
<anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:03:19 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
>> >def foo ():
>> >   whatever
>> >foo = decorator (foo)
>> >
>> >is that you have to type the word "foo" three times.
>> 
>> Big f**king deal - all things considered. ;)
>
>When this name is a PyObjC name that might be 70 characters long,
>it becomes a big deal.

PyOdjC keeps being mentioned as the poster project for @decorator. 

Isn't it fair to note that projects where the naming of functions is
outside the control of the developers are blue moon situations?

The kind of constraint that might be expected to lead to some extra
effort. Which the PyObjC developers seemed to be quite willing and
able to face with some equanimity, in the absence of a native
@decorator facility.

Just a debating point, or at least an effort to neutralize, a bit, a
statement that seems to be little more than a debating point.
  

Art 


From franz.geiger at fh-vorarlberg.ac.at  Fri Aug  6 03:52:35 2004
From: franz.geiger at fh-vorarlberg.ac.at (F. GEIGER)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:52:35 +0200
Subject: [py2exe.i18n] English works, German works,
	but not French. What do I miss?
References: <cev7g9$3fm$1@newshispeed.ch>
	<Xns953D5E610BA51cpl19ghumspamgourmet@195.20.224.116>
Message-ID: <411338c4$0$11742$3b214f66@aconews.univie.ac.at>


"Harald Massa" <cpl.19.ghum at spamgourmet.com> wrote in message
news:Xns953D5E610BA51cpl19ghumspamgourmet at 195.20.224.116...
> "F. GEIGER" <f.geiger at vol.at> wrote in news:cev7g9$3fm$1 at newshispeed.ch:
>
> > When I start a py2exe-ed application I get the error
> >
> > 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xe9' in position 10: ordinal
> > not in range(128)
>
>
> encodings: prepare to spend the night.
>
> First reading:
> http://starship.python.net/crew/theller/moin.cgi/EncodingsAgain
>
> Second:
> your error msg says that you are trying to encode sth. NOT ASCII to
> ASCII...
>
> I guess:
> your lokale site has another encoding configured
>
>
> import sys
> sys.getdefaultencoding()
>
> -- returns sth. like Latin-1
>
> And the py2exed application does not read siteconfig.py, and so in the
> running app sys.getdefaultencoding() would be some thing different.
>
> My approach to this is:
>
> in the beginning of the app I write:
>
> import sys
> if hasattr(sys,"setdefaultencoding"):
>     sys.setdefaultencoding("latin-1")

if hasattr() returns False, that means that site.py / sitecustomize.py has
been exec'ed and has deleted the attr 'setdefaultencoding', right?

i.e.,

import sys
if hasattr(sys,"setdefaultencoding"):
    sys.setdefaultencoding("latin-1")
else:
   pass # site.py did it already for us and everything should work

>
> so ... when no site-config was run, I manually set my default encoding to
> latin-1
>
> works great (together with what I described within the wiki)

Thank you, Harald, as I am traveling right now, I'll be able to try this in
the afternoon.

>
> Harald

Kind regards
Franz GEIGER




From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug 20 23:55:01 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 23:55:01 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <i0vVc.412$MR2.2033@news1.mts.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl>	<ZFoVc.360$MR2.1503@news1.mts.net>
	<mailman.2058.1093016284.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<kd6dnZ99Oaj8vbvcRVn-jw@powergate.ca>
	<i0vVc.412$MR2.2033@news1.mts.net>
Message-ID: <ibednRDmoMqBWrvcRVn-oA@powergate.ca>

Reid Nichol wrote:

> Peter Hansen wrote (about "quantum"):
>> And at least some dictionaries give it as a synonym for "large"
>> or "significant".  (www.m-w.com for one)
> 
> Such things are only the result of a misunderstanding of the word some 
> time ago.  Even though it is wrong, it has become common use, thus the 
> incorrect definition definition(s).

Whatever... the point is that you can be prescriptive or descriptive
about the meanings of words... and *descriptively speaking*, it is
used as "large" and at least one dictionary accurately notes that
fact.  Nobody really cares whether it results from a misunderstanding
or mistake... if they did, Americans would properly use "fewer"
in all those cases where they now use "less" incorrectly.

-Peter


From indigo at bitglue.com  Wed Aug 18 14:35:21 2004
From: indigo at bitglue.com (Phil Frost)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:35:21 -0400
Subject: Embedding Python in Python
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
References: <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
Message-ID: <20040818183521.GA25267@unununium.org>

You probably want something like this:

globalDict = {}
exec(stringOfPythonCodeFromUser, globalDict)

globalDict is now the global namespace of whatever was in
stringOfPythonCodeFromUser, so you can grab values from that and
selectivly import them into your namespace.

On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 02:26:00PM -0500, Robey Holderith wrote:
> 
> Anyone know a good way to embed python within python?
> 
> Now before you tell me that's silly, let me explain
> what I'd like to do.
> 
> I'd like to allow user-defined scriptable objects.  I'd
> like to give them access to modify pieces of my classes.
> I'd like to disallow access to pretty much the rest of
> the modules.
> 
> Any ideas/examples?
> 
> -Robey


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug  3 19:03:58 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 19:03:58 -0400
Subject: python + byte array
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1105.1091572959.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1105.1091572959.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <CuCdnUVgaY59hI3cRVn-sA@powergate.ca>

Ruslan wrote:

> I use win32com package to call WinHTTP COM methods.
> One of them is 'Send'. I can pass string parameter to 'Send' method from
> python - it's OK, but to send binary data i need somehow pass in 'Send'
> method data of _byte array_ type(Visual Basic type). Does anybody know
> how to mimic that 'byte array' type of Visual Basic in Python (i need to
> pass big chunks of binary data in 'Send')?
> I tried struct.pack, but that doesn't seem to be an option.

Strings are probably what you are looking for... in Python a string
is basically an array of bytes.


From tchur at optushome.com.au  Tue Aug 17 16:46:58 2004
From: tchur at optushome.com.au (Tim Churches)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 06:46:58 +1000
Subject: Plotting over MapPoint maps
In-Reply-To: <d1f3d1d3.0408170700.1c2e4a95@posting.google.com>
References: <d1f3d1d3.0408170700.1c2e4a95@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1092775618.1249.7.camel@emilio>

On Wed, 2004-08-18 at 02:29, Dr. Colombes wrote:
> Can anyone offer pointers, suggestions on how to overlay coordinate
> (Lat, Long)-based MatPlotLib graphics over a MapPoint map ?

For geographic maps in Python, see Thuban and related projects at
http://thuban.intevation.org/

No idea whether it is possible to display MapPoint maps (that's a
proprietary Microsoft map format, isn't it?) in Thuban or overlay
Matplotlib charts.

You might want to look at R instead (see http://www.r-project.org) - it
provides facilities to display rudimentary maps, charts and plots and
raster images all in the same graphic. There are also several
geostatistics modules available for it. You can drive R and send and
receive data to/from it via RPy (http://rpy.sf.net).

-- 

Tim C

PGP/GnuPG Key 1024D/EAF993D0 available from keyservers everywhere
or at http://members.optushome.com.au/tchur/pubkey.asc
Key fingerprint = 8C22 BF76 33BA B3B5 1D5B  EB37 7891 46A9 EAF9 93D0





From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Thu Aug 12 19:40:28 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:40:28 -0700
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
In-Reply-To: <411bfa47$1@nntp.zianet.com>
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
	<60dfb6f6.0408111846.615ee9eb@posting.google.com>
	<3YWdnYxLf--ObofcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<cffbbu$amv$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk> <411ba1db$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<EvadnaCm3bK0NIbcRVn-iQ@powergate.ca> <411bd3f0$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<10hnqqm8h7b3k89@corp.supernews.com> <411bfa47$1@nntp.zianet.com>
Message-ID: <10hnvtn1184q773@corp.supernews.com>

Mark Bottjer wrote:

> Jeff Shannon wrote:
>
>> All the criticisms aimed at the decorate: syntax, ISTM, apply equally
>> well to @pie syntax, except for the few that are based on indentation
>> level.
>
>
> Which are the only ones *I* was really trying to debate. :)
>
> BTW: "ISTM"?


"... it seems to me ..."  :)

>> And on those, *I* at least feel that it'd be preferable to pattern
>> decorators after existing language constructs, rather than
>> deliberately breaking all the patterns that Python has established.
>
>
> Again, agreed. It seems like we both agree that the @pie syntax 
> doesn't follow any extant pattern. Where we seem to differ is in our 
> opinions of how well the decorate: syntax follows those same patterns.


Perhaps.  (Though, before this post, I was getting the impression that 
you were in favor of @pies, which would imply a different aesthetic 
sense of the code as well; I'm willing to allow a bit more slack on 
breaking established patterns in order to avoid the sort of eyesore that 
@pie represents to me.)

>> The fact that the feature is new doesn't mean that we need an entire
>> new code-layout principle.  The differences between class & def, on
>> the one hand, and try/except & if/else on the other, don't seem to
>> confuse people too much.  I'd rather see the same layout principle
>> applied in a different way than see an unprecedented and unfamiliar
>> layout principle used in one or two special cases.
>
>
> FWIW, I agree. That's why I like this option the best:
>
> class C:
>   def c(self):
>     meta: #declare, decorate, transform, fubar, whatever...
>       staticmethod
>       doc('Doc.')
>     pass
>
> IMHO, this form passes all the of the criteria we've been debating. The
> only criterion it fails is that it is "inside" the function, but I don't
> consider that too big an issue: once you know where to look for the
> additional information, you'll look there. Where-ever that may be.


I'd be happiest with this option, too.  But it seems that GvR has 
already ruled out anything other than prefix syntax, so I'm not wasting 
my energy backing this.  With prefix syntax as a given, I'd prefer to 
have the closest we can come to this form, which is to have the meta (or 
decorate, or whatever) block immediately preceding the def.

Though I must say, I don't see how putting a meta: block inside the 
function is any less a violation of established patterns than having it 
outside the function.  You seem to be implying that you think it's fine 
inside, but an abomination outside.  I'm saying that this sort of block 
structure is (IMO) the most pythonic way to do this, and while I'd like 
it inside I don't particularly care if it's outside, and that in any 
case it's far less of an abomination that @pies are.  :)

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From rho at see.signature.invalid  Mon Aug 23 05:52:09 2004
From: rho at see.signature.invalid (Nigel Rowe)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:52:09 +1000
Subject: J2 paper 0.2.1
References: <mailman.2180.1093238695.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10ijfibd8qo84b5@news.supernews.com>

Robert Brewer wrote:

> The first draft of the J2 proposal is ready. You can read it here:
> http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html
> 
> At this point, I am looking for comments regarding the proposal. Once I
> believe I have addressed a sufficient number of concerns, I will freeze
> the document and call for signatories, both for and against, then send
> it to Guido. Until that time, expect the draft to change multiple times
> each day (there's a meta tag with the version number if you care to
> check).
> 
> In this thread, please do not introduce discussions regarding syntaxes
> other than J2 and A1. Limit your comments to the three arguments,
> literary critique, and praise for Mr. Sparks who is providing the
> implementation. Oh, and somebody let me know if you rampaging lot crush
> my little server. ;)
> 
> 
> Robert Brewer
> MIS
> Amor Ministries
> fumanchu at amor.org

It's a *very* minor nit (which just indicates how much basic agreement I
have with the document overall), but, could the list of example keywords be
put in alphabetical order?

Ie: 

predef, prologue, preamble, preface, helper, amend, using, having, qualify,
extend, confer, meta, through, per, via, by

becomes

amend, by, confer, extend, having, helper, meta, per, preamble, predef,
preface, prologue, qualify, through, using, via

-- 
        Nigel Rowe
        A pox upon the spammers that make me write my address like..
                rho (snail) swiftdsl (stop) com (stop) au


From http  Sat Aug 28 04:04:01 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 01:04:01 -0700
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xzn4gwgea.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7a1o.1a5d2q410jsn2kN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xisb4xnh5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7c1a.tfdm14p3hclcN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xd61benm9.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj82n3.1ylkr3nierngmN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7x4qmnvgcu.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:
> Would it make sense to rely on a naming convention instead?
> I.e. foo.zip would be unsigned but bar.jar would have to be signed
> or else no go.  This would have the advantage of allowing
> substantial granularity in controlling this.

I think this is reasonable, except what does the import statement look
like?  Do you say something like "import frob from bar.jar"?

> Side question, does module zipfile already have the code to allow
> reading such signed files?  

I think jar files are just zip files containing an extra file (called
"manifest") that has signatures in it.  So you can import from a jar
as if it were a zip.


From siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk  Wed Aug 18 10:28:14 2004
From: siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk (Sion Arrowsmith)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 15:28:14 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Access to Oracle
References: <mailman.1856.1092831836.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <wdg*FNnsq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

Greg Lindstrom <greg.lindstrom at novasyshealth.com> wrote:
>I am running Python 2.3.3 on HP-UX and would like to access an Oracle 9i
>database. Looking through the vaults, I see 4 or 5 modules that might work
>and was wondering if anyone is currently hitting Oracle and what are you
>using.

We're using cx_Oracle, primarily for Oracle 8i on Solaris but we
also target W2K. Testing with 9i should currently be in progress,
and I've had no problems reported so far....

-- 
\S -- siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk -- http://www.chaos.org.uk/~sion/
  ___  |  "Frankly I have no feelings towards penguins one way or the other"
  \X/  |    -- Arthur C. Clarke
   her nu become? se bera eadward ofdun hl?ddre heafdes b?ce bump bump bump


From fumanchu at amor.org  Tue Aug 24 00:52:26 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:52:26 -0700
Subject: On consensus decision-making (was Re: Alternative decorator
	syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WEDONE?)
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E4E@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Peter Hansen wrote:
> Has anything really changed?  Would it now be correct to say
> that C1 has a serious chance of being accepted if someone would
> just update the implementation to the state and quality (?) of
> the other two?

As serious as any other, I suppose:

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.devel/63137


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From sholden at holdenweb.com  Mon Aug 30 08:11:37 2004
From: sholden at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 08:11:37 -0400
Subject: os.walk: Get entire path
In-Reply-To: <1093799393.448803@news.commspeed.net>
References: <cgssom$hu6$00$1@news.t-online.com>
	<1093799393.448803@news.commspeed.net>
Message-ID: <eSEYc.50136$4o.19817@fed1read01>

Tom B. wrote:

> "Florian Lindner" <Florian.Lindner at xgm.de> wrote in message
> news:cgssom$hu6$00$1 at news.t-online.com...
> 
>>Hello,
>>when I'm walking through a file system hierarchy using os.walk, how can I
>>get the full path of a file or dir? normpath and abspath don't work.
>>Thx,
>>Florian
> 
> 
> I would use glob
> 
> import glob
> 
> glob.glob('c:\\images\\*\\*.jpg')
> 
> yields all .jpg's in //images and sub directories with full path in a list.

No, it doesn't.

If the directory hierarchy is more thane one level deep you won't see 
those files, and neither (I believe without verifying) will you see 
files from the top-level directory itself.

regards
  Steve


From norman.werner at student.uni-magdeburg.de  Fri Aug 27 03:31:57 2004
From: norman.werner at student.uni-magdeburg.de (norman werner)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 00:31:57 -0700
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<VJOdnfiBTci22rDcRVn-gg@adelphia.com>
	<aNidnUSV4-OK4rDcRVn-jA@powergate.ca>
	<cgkfs3$b87$1@ares.cs.utwente.nl>
	<Nbudnes8cfDjWLDcRVn-sA@powergate.ca>
	<cgkhtp$duf$1@ares.cs.utwente.nl>
	<vw8fz6938pw.fsf@berry.phys.ntnu.no>
Message-ID: <b301fb47.0408262331.1e4d04eb@posting.google.com>

Albert Reiner <areiner at tph.tuwien.ac.at> wrote in message news:<vw8fz6938pw.fsf at berry.phys.ntnu.no>...
> ["Michiel Borkent" <borkent at cs.utwente.nl>, Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:35:38 +0200]:
> > LISP and Esperanto: my favorite languages.
> 
> Ankaux miaj - krom, eble, ankaux la Haskella.
> 
> Stranga koncentrigxo de verdlingvanoj cxe cll, cxu ne?
> 
> Albert.

estas koncentrig:o. Ambau: lingvoj estas elektata de inteligentaj homoj :)
Espereble mi ne g:ustas - ne mi s:atas induktitan konkludon pri homaro.


Norman


From kyleroot at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 22:31:34 2004
From: kyleroot at gmail.com (Kyle Root)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 19:31:34 -0700
Subject: Arranging a dependency tree
Message-ID: <6ccff37a.0408111831.6eb25a4e@posting.google.com>

I'm working on a little practice program, but I've become stuck and am
now utterly confused :?

I've created a jumble of python modules, in each one is a tuple that
goes something like,

deps = ("file10","file7","file3").

And some have no dependencies at all.  I have one file called "start",
and the whole thing makes a tree of dependencies as each file has deps
and their deps might have deps, and so on.  What I'm trying to do is
"straighten" them or put them in order as if they were to be
installed.  Basically I'm trying to replicate the way portage does it.
:)

I've been thinking about this for a few days but I always get lost. 
So far I have a has_deps(filename) function, and not much else. I get
stuck on the actual changing the files from the random jumble to a
into a nice orderly list of files.    One problem that I can't
overcome is when I'm a couple of deps in and I finally get to the
files that don't require anything, I have no way of getting back to do
the parent file's other deps. (Does that make any sense?)

Basically I was wondering if anyone had any tips or pointers, or knew
of any dependency resolving algorithms...

Thanks,
Kyle


From asif at go-away-spammer.com  Wed Aug 25 10:29:44 2004
From: asif at go-away-spammer.com (Player)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:29:44 +0100
Subject: Begginers questions on different distributions of py
References: <cgga5m$v1n$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<b74e43f1.0408242301.49601f30@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgi7ot$f6u$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>

I decided to try the original Python version, but alas, pywin32 the latest
version or build, requires python 2.2 to install, were as the latest v of
Python is a 2.3 :(

M.B




From russblau at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 31 13:38:02 2004
From: russblau at hotmail.com (Russell Blau)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:38:02 -0400
Subject: Beginners question.
References: <ch2c6b$5ap$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <2pjrbnFkpdrvU1@uni-berlin.de>

"Player" <asif at go-away-spammer.com> wrote in message
news:ch2c6b$5ap$1 at newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Firstly I just wanted to see if I could get the length out of those
elements > that were list type.
> I no thats not exactly what the exercise asks for, but I thought I would
> start there.
> However I am stuck and cant figure out why my code is doing what it's
doing.
> My code is as follows....
>
> mylist = [1, 2, ["three", "four"], "five"]
> for item in mylist:
>     if item == type(list):

The "if" statement above is always false (well, at least for any list you
are likely to encounter in real life), because you are looking to see if the
item is equal to "type(list)" which is a type object.  I think you meant:

      if type(item) == list:

That's why your len() statement was never being reached.

>         myitem = len(item)
>         print myitem
>     else:
>          print item
>

-- 
I don't actually read my hotmail account, but you can replace hotmail with
excite if you really want to reach me.




From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 13 16:48:34 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:48:34 -0400
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
In-Reply-To: <X5qdnYpQdNaqsIHcRVn-rA@powergate.ca>
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
	<60dfb6f6.0408111846.615ee9eb@posting.google.com>
	<3YWdnYxLf--ObofcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<cffbbu$amv$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk> <411ba1db$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<EvadnaCm3bK0NIbcRVn-iQ@powergate.ca> <411bd3f0$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<X5qdnYpQdNaqsIHcRVn-rA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <411d2923$1@nntp.zianet.com>

Peter Hansen wrote:
> Mark Bottjer wrote:
> 
>> Peter Hansen wrote:
>>
>>> Mark Bottjer wrote:
>>>
>>>> With this
>>>> syntax, though, the decorate block changes how the def statement is 
>>>> handled, even though they are at the same indentation level.
>>>
>>> Changes it how?  The definition of this whole decorator idea has been
>>> that it is equivalent to applying the decorator functions *after* the
>>> def has completed, as in "func = decorator(func)".  This does not
>>> in any way changed how the def statement itself is handled.
>>
>> Except that the action happens magically after the def, even though 
>> the decorator is before it. To me, this has the appearance of changing 
>> the action of def. I'm trying to argue based on how it appears, rather 
>> than how we know it to be implemented.
> 
> I understand that.  What I don't understand is why you make
> this complaint about the indented form, when the non-indented
> form with @decorator has exactly the same issue!  In all
> cases, pre-def is weird in that the declarative lines that
> decorate the function lead to action *after* the def is
> closed, whether the decorators are indented or not.

I *do* have the same complaint about the @decorator form. *All* the 
prefix forms have this problem. That's why I don't like them as much as 
the "top of function block" forms; at least with those we have the 
already-established pattern of docstrings to help us understand what is 
going on. The "in-statement with def" forms are the cleanest 
conceptually, but just don't seem to code up well.

My point was only that I find the indented block of decorators to be 
less intuitive than the (ugly, but to me more obvious) flush-left list 
of @decorators. If we're going to be stuck with a prefix form, I like 
@dec better than decorate: (though "meta dec" would be fine as well).

I think GvR's point about not having to look inside the function to 
determine its specification is nice in theory, but we're already used to 
doing exactly that. Changing it now just adds confusion.

   -- Mark


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 04:59:31 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:59:31 +0200
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Robert Brewer <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote:

> This is a call for all who wish to sign the proposal, either for,
> against, or abstaining. Please sign by either posting on
> comp.lang.python (replying to this is fine), or sending email to

For.

I wish we'd use a better keyword than 'using' which would have a
bazillion other possible and useful future interpretations.  Of the
possible keywords mentioned on the site, several (by, per, through, via)
appear better to me, and I'd particularly love the three-letter ones as
they'd align well with 'def' -- my own preference would be 'per'.

However, I suspect it's too late to submit J2 with anything but 'using'
and I'd rather have J2 with 'using' than the pie-before-def thingy, so,
here's my "tactical" FOR vote:-).


Alex


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug  6 13:44:59 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 13:44:59 -0400
Subject: elements of decorator syntax suggestions
In-Reply-To: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>
References: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <xu2dneAe0OkBXo7cRVn-hA@powergate.ca>

Steven Bethard wrote:

> So in summary
> -> yay keywords!
> -> before def or before colon, and 
> -> whatever list notation and indentation floats your boat

Good post, Steven, and I agree with all your own opinions on the
matter as expressed above.

Note one addition item that most of us are glossing over in the
debate for/against the pie (@) syntax.  Order of operation.

@ syntax has reversed order from the list-after-def.  I think
the order should be readily apparent from the syntax, and I
think the list syntax does provide that benefit over the @ syntax.

I think I'd like a "decorate" keyword (or equivalent), *before*
the definition to avoid the problems with obscuration, and a
mandatory list of some kind that clearly shows the order.

Something like, but not necessarily exactly the same as, this:

from __future__ import decoration

     decorate [
         foo,
         bar,
         bletch(spam='baz')
         ]
     def func(): ...

The only problem is that it still has the defect of @ wherein
the decorate doesn't seem to "bind" to the function def very
well, especially if blank lines are allowed etc.

I'm unclear on what I think it best... but then I don't mind
the current approach much at all, where you just stick the
stuff after the entire function block, so who cares about my
opinion? ;-)

-Peter


From jacek.generowicz at cern.ch  Wed Aug 25 05:32:03 2004
From: jacek.generowicz at cern.ch (Jacek Generowicz)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 11:32:03 +0200
Subject: Shell used by os.system
Message-ID: <tyfllg3pnqk.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>

Is there a way of specifying the shell in which os.system commands are
executed[1]? Is there a way of specifying what startup scripts should
be read?


[1] On systems where this makes sense, of course.


From jedwardrm at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Aug  1 15:44:14 2004
From: jedwardrm at yahoo.co.uk (Jed R. Mallen)
Date: 1 Aug 2004 12:44:14 -0700
Subject: python tutes on win32
Message-ID: <f6e0a56a.0408011144.12bde5ad@posting.google.com>

Hello,

Can anyone point me to a nice tute on making python apps for win32?

TIA


From me at privacy.net  Mon Aug  9 17:39:03 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Richard Hanson)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:39:03 -0700
Subject: MSI Installer issues
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<411241F5.3080602@v.loewis.de>	<1f7befae040805103911610582@mail.gmail.com>	<411274C0.4070300@v.loewis.de>
	<1f7befae04080623276089908e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4114A02F.7060906@v.loewis.de>
	<mailman.1375.1092024082.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2jpfh0dsv97dkvflmvnu2ac9h1c91i3721@4ax.com>

[NB: This post contains little of substance -- the gratitude is
real, however.]

[Tim Peters wrote:]

>[...] "low-res" may be a feature, as some
>people have very low screen resolution settings and very large fonts. 

My Fujitsu LifeBook P1120 (Win2k SP2) has a 1024x600 pixel screen
(and tweaked fonts to compensate for the rapidly worsening
lighting conditions coincidentally appearing just as I age
<wink>). 

A common problem I run into is that the occasional dialog box is
too tall for the available screen real estate. 

(This problem is exacerbated by my preference to have the taskbar
not hide -- driving Windows is difficult enough without having a
not inconsiderable amount of third-party-apps sitting in my
systray helping to clue me in on just what-all-in-hell is going
on with this machine. This strategy sometimes even works. <wink>)

In any event, while the current (2.4a2) MSI installer's dialog
box is one of those too-tall ones, thankfully, Martin's MSI
installer dialog thoughtfully provides scrollbars to make dealing
with the problem much less onerous. 

Martin's too-tall-for-my-screen installer is the *only* too-tall
dialog I've encountered which *has* provided the scrollbars --
including some from BIG_NUM-bucko corps. 

So, no particular point. I just wanted to say good job to all the
contributors -- thanks!

-- Richard

-- 
R Hanson [The mangled email addie below works.]
sick<P0INT>ole<PERI0D>fart<PIE_DEC0_SYNTAX>newsguy<MARK>com


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Mon Aug 23 14:09:52 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 20:09:52 +0200
Subject: Finding a class' superclasses
Message-ID: <HBF.20040823wd70@bombur.uio.no>

How do I find a class' immediate superclasses?
That is, given
  class A:       pass
  class B(A):    pass
  class C(A):    pass
  class D(B, C): pass
I want a function foo where foo(D) or foo(D()) returns (B, C).
(Well, the order of the classes is not important.)

-- 
Hallvard


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 14:41:10 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 18:41:10 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: function taking scalar or list argument
References: <412a2bce$1_1@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <loom.20040823T203026-14@post.gmane.org>

beliavsky <at> aol.com <beliavsky <at> 127.0.0.1> writes:
> def twice(x):
>     try:
>         return map(twice,x)
>     except:
>         return 2*x
> 
[snip]
> Is this good style?

First a general comment about catching exceptions -- you should probably write 
your try-except block as:

try:
    ...
except TypeError:
    ...

Better to only catch the exceptions that your call to map will throw.


But to really answer your question, I would probably avoid this style.  It 
means for every number you double (whether an element of a list, or an element 
alone), you'll throw and catch an exception.  This needlessly complicates the 
simple case.  Exception handling is intended to deal with "exceptional" cases, 
cases which should be relatively infrequent.  And while Python's exception 
handling is pretty efficient, it's still not particularly cheap to catch 
exceptions.  You would probably be better with:

def twice(x):
	if isinstance(x, list):
		return map(twice, x)
	else:
		return 2*x

In this case, instead of incurring the cost of a thrown and caught exception 
for each number, you incur only the cost of a isinstance test.  You also avoid 
treating the common case as the exceptional one.

Steve

P.S.  In reality, I probably wouldn't write a method like this, instead 
relying on the caller to call map for themselves if necessary.  The caller is 
much more likely to know the type of the object they want to double anyway, so 
they may not even need to use the isinstance test.



From zathras at thwackety.com  Sat Aug 21 20:20:16 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 01:20:16 +0100 (BST)
Subject: J2 decorator grammar
In-Reply-To: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E1B@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408220102570.23441-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Robert Brewer wrote:
...
> Did you ever fix the scope issue?

I've fixed the scoping issue.

I'll clean up the changes I made to get a minimal patch against 2.4a2, and
then put it somewhere handy. Now that I've got a much clearer idea of how
the python source tree hangs together adding in the short form should be
relatively simple.

The current patch uses "decorate" as the keyword. Changing that of course
is utterly trivial - it's also something I think *should* be changed.

The reason for suggesting this change is for one simple reason - python
makes often use of the idiom "decorate-dosomething-undecorate" - eg in
sorting. Using decorate would probably clash heavily with people's code.

The closest word that strikes me that has a similar meaning to
decorate, using and applying would be "decorating". If anyone has
a closer suggestion to a short single word meaning "decorate using",
it'd be great.

> Might it have something to do with:
> static void
> symtable_node(struct symtable *st, node *n)
> {

It certainly did! Your suggested change was necessary, however it was
incomplete - the child to traverse also needed changing. (I really
should've thought of that sooner - of course it's no longer zero! :)

ie this
>                       symtable_node(st, CHILD(n, 0));
Becomes:
>                       symtable_node(st, CHILD(n, 4));

So THANK YOU for pointing out this part of the code :)

Currently I have a file that looks like this, which is completely legal,
and does what you would expect for this syntax:
----
def memoise(f):
   return f

class Foo:
   decorate:
      staticmethod
   def Hoo(who):
      print "You", who
      if 1:
         decorate:
            memoise
         def Print(what):
            print "Ya", what

         Print(who)

Foo.Hoo("HOO!")
----

No matter what syntax we end up with, all of these syntactic sugar changes
rely on the original decorator code, and I've been very pleasantly
suprised at just how clean (and well documented) the python source is for
a project of it's size.

As I say I'll post the cleaned up patch later.

Regards,


Michael.




From fred at acme.com  Mon Aug 23 20:26:05 2004
From: fred at acme.com (Fred)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 02:26:05 +0200
Subject: [newbie] Strange behavior of the re module
References: <2ejdi01btug5iskb4ipjpj7eaprd8i7vgm@4ax.com>
	<86hei0prvp55iom91df23tffh04egefeig@4ax.com>
	<3toei056qnmk8nkesta47mncuh49asscht@4ax.com>
	<jobfi0pld79vkqh3r2jm1ve844d0s60t23@4ax.com>
	<WTt*cuOsq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Message-ID: <dm2li0hcuh65lenfup2v6tfjc94g9hbeuv@4ax.com>

On 23 Aug 2004 16:58:00 +0100 (BST), Sion Arrowsmith
<siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>Here's another hint: string.replace() is a lot faster than re.sub(),
>and doesn't require any extra escaping of the replacement string.

Indeed. The replacing line on the same 200KB document takes over
2:30mn using re.sub() but... less than a secod with output.replace().

Thx a bunch for the tip :-)
Fred.


From jacob at cd.chalmers.se  Tue Aug 10 14:42:12 2004
From: jacob at cd.chalmers.se (Jacob Hallen)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 18:42:12 GMT
Subject: decorators vs GIL
References: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>
	<0bidnfbR2_PZOIjcRVn-pA@giganews.com>
	<e69d3ed2040808011667ddee7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.1464.1092156423.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cfb4u4$okp$1@eol.dd.chalmers.se>

In article <mailman.1464.1092156423.5135.python-list at python.org>,
Skip Montanaro  <skip at pobox.com> wrote:
>
>    Anthony> As far as "fixing" the GIL - well, no-one on Python-Dev has
>    Anthony> obviously found it to be a problem for them. 
>
>I wouldn't state the case that strongly.  There appear to be bigger fish for
>the python-dev gang to fry up to this point.  Perhaps if more of us were
>scientific computation types the GIL would be seen as a more important
>barrier to be removed.  That a fairly bright guy (Greg Stein) removed it
>once and found performance to be disappointing doesn't advocate strongly for
>removal of the GIL either.
>
>Skip

So, what we really want to do is to remove the GIL, and keep it.

Ignoring trivialities like practical implementation, we can do this, since
the moment we start running our program, we will be able to find out
if we are running in an environment were we have access to multiple
processors (and if the program has the ability to use them (at least most
of the time)). If we can use multi-processing, we invoke a Python
interpreter with fine grained locking, otherwise we stick with the
GIL.

It is not really reasonable to have 2 different sets of source code
to maintain the 2 versions of the interpreter, but it might be possible
to make an abstraction of the locking that allows the source code
to compile into 2 different interpreters with different locking
strategies.

Practical implementation would probably be a very big project. Especially in
the case of the standard Python implementation.

Jacob Hall?n

-- 


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Tue Aug 24 16:04:38 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 15:04:38 -0500
Subject: Building basic dialog in Windows?
References: <bp0ni09fofpahse8uoa4l3hdmq5lmi61rr@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3tGdnSTFgOnIArbcRVn-pQ@comcast.com>

Here's a class for Windows progress bar:

#
# Progress bar control example
#
# PyCProgressCtrl encapsulates the MFC CProgressCtrl class.  To use it,
# you:
#
# - Create the control with win32ui.CreateProgressCtrl()
# - Create the control window with PyCProgressCtrl.CreateWindow()
# - Initialize the range if you want it to be other than (0, 100) using
#   PyCProgressCtrl.SetRange()
# - Either:
#   - Set the step size with PyCProgressCtrl.SetStep(), and
#   - Increment using PyCProgressCtrl.StepIt()
#   or:
#   - Set the amount completed using PyCProgressCtrl.SetPos()
#
# Example and progress bar code courtesy of KDL Technologies, Ltd., Hong
Kong SAR, China.
#

from pywin.mfc import dialog
import win32ui
import win32con
import time

def MakeDlgTemplate():
 style = (win32con.DS_MODALFRAME |
  win32con.WS_POPUP |
  win32con.WS_VISIBLE |
  win32con.WS_CAPTION |
  win32con.WS_SYSMENU |
  win32con.DS_SETFONT)
 cs = (win32con.WS_CHILD |
  win32con.WS_VISIBLE)

 w = 215
 h = 36

 dlg = [["Progress bar",
  (0, 0, w, h),
  style,
  None,
  (8, "MS Sans Serif")],
  ]
 return dlg

class TestDialog(dialog.Dialog):
 def OnInitDialog(self):
  rc = dialog.Dialog.OnInitDialog(self)
  self.pbar = win32ui.CreateProgressCtrl()
  self.pbar.CreateWindow (win32con.WS_CHILD |
      win32con.WS_VISIBLE,
      (10, 10, 310, 24),
      self, 1001)
  return rc

def demo():
 d = TestDialog (MakeDlgTemplate())
 d.CreateWindow ()
 for i in xrange(100):
  d.pbar.SetPos(i)
  time.sleep(0.1)

 d.OnCancel()

if __name__=='__main__':
 demo()


Here's some code for a file dialog box that I stripped from
an application that asks user to select an export file
from TimePilot payroll application (the files are always
called TimePilot.mdb):

import win32ui
import win32con

#---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
# Display a file dialog box that allows the user to browse to the
TimePilot.mdb
# file that they wish to export.
#---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
timepilotdatapath="C:\TimePilot"
f=win32ui.CreateFileDialog(1, None, "TimePilot.mdb", 0,
                           'TimePilot databases|TimePilot.mdb||')
f.SetOFNInitialDir(timepilotdatapath)
f.SetOFNTitle("Timepilot Extracted Data")
result=f.DoModal()
if result == win32con.IDCANCEL:
    emsg="Cancel button pressed during TimePilot.mdb file selection,
aborting"
    sys.exit(emsg)

mdb_path=f.GetPathName()

HTH,
Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.

"Fred" <nobody at nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:bp0ni09fofpahse8uoa4l3hdmq5lmi61rr at 4ax.com...
> Hi,
>
> I'd like to turn a command-line script into a Windows GUI app
> using the native widgets so as to reduce the size of the binary (ie.
> no QT, wxWidgets, et al.)
>
> I came up with the following list of tools to access the Win32 API:
>
> - PythonWin (MFC) http://www.python.org/windows/pythonwin/
> - ctypes http://starship.python.net/crew/theller/ctypes/
> - EasyDialogs for Windows
> http://www.averdevelopment.com/python/EasyDialogs.html
> - DynWin http://www.nightmare.com/~rushing/dynwin/
> - sdk32 - Partial Python wrap of the Win32 Platform SDK
> http://www.object-craft.com.au/projects/sdk32/
>
> Does someone have a sample on how to display an OK/Cancel dialog with
> a label + progress bar? Should I look at other tools?
>
> Thank you
> Fred.




From anandpillai at letterboxes.org  Tue Aug 31 07:22:54 2004
From: anandpillai at letterboxes.org (Anand Pillai)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 04:22:54 -0700
Subject: Python Usage Statistics
Message-ID: <bba535b4.0408310322.248af2b0@posting.google.com>

Hi Folks 

     (posting after a loooong time...)

    I have been contracted by an Indian publisher to author an
introductory text book on Python. As a part of the introductory
chapter, I thought it would be a good idea to present a number, a
round-about figure on the approximate *actual* usage of Python out
there in number of developers and/or installations.

    Scrounging the Web for such statistics is proving elusive. The PBF
website seems to be the official place for these, but there also they
just have listings of companies/instituitions using Python, not any
numbers.

    Has anybody done an actual market survey anytime recently on
Python usage in the software community? If so, where can I get access
to this information? I would be more interested in the number of
developers, both commercial/non-commercial who are doing development
using Python. Since almost every Linux distro now a days contains
Python by default, a number based on the installations could prove
faulty.

Have a nice day.
     
-Anand


From tdelaney at avaya.com  Sun Aug 15 22:15:16 2004
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy))
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:15:16 +1000
Subject: autocoding and the new MS book regarding software factories
Message-ID: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01CF49AC@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

Hey all! It's time for the semi-regular Tim Rue sighting! With a new
email address to beat the killfiles (or more likely these days,
spambayes).

Where's that 'Delete As Spam' button gone ...?

Tim Delaney


From frank at chagford.com  Fri Aug  6 03:31:39 2004
From: frank at chagford.com (Frank Millman)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 00:31:39 -0700
Subject: Obscure bug in pyPgSQL
Message-ID: <246a4e07.0408052331.2cdd7e92@posting.google.com>

Hi all

Below is the text of a message I was about to send in connection with
an obscure problem. I have now almost got to the bottom of it, and am
fairly confident that it is a bug in pyPgSQL. I hope this is the
correct place to report such bugs. If not, please advise the correct
forum.

I have left the original message intact as it provides important
information. At the bottom, I have recorded the new information that I
have discovered.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is an obscure problem. I am not sure if I can explain the
symptoms properly, but I will do my best.

I have a Linux box (RH9) and an MSW box (W2K Pro) networked to each
other. Both are running Python 2.3.3.

Linux is the server. It is running PostgreSQL, which listens on port
5432. It is also running a socket server program that I have written
using socket.socket(), listening on port 6543. I am using pyPgSQL to
connect to the database.

MSW is the client. From time to time it sends messages to my socket
server. Messages are strings consisting of a single digit identifier,
followed by a cPickle'd tuple containing various data fields. The
client uses cPickle.dumps to prepare the string before sending, and
the server uses cPickle.loads to unpickle it after receiving.

Most times it works perfectly, but in one particular situation the
server terminates with an error. The error is consistent - it always
gives the same error resulting from the same message. However, I do
not think it is caused by the message itself, as exactly the same
message is sent in different circumstances without generating an
error.

The traceback is as follows -

    File "./chag_server.py", line 190, in ?
      dat = cPickle.loads(data[1:])
    File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/site-packages/pyPgSQL/libpq/__init__.py",
line 43, in _I8
      return PgInt8(value)
    NameError: ("global name 'PgInt8' is not defined", <function _I8
at 0x403a04c4>, ('17',))

The error occurs at the point of unpickling - I have moved this
around, and it always fails at this point.

A typical example of the tuple being unpickled is (2,'Ar',17,1) - it
is all normal strings and integers.

I have no idea why pyPgSQL is involved at all - I am certainly not
invoking it directly. In fact the error comes from my server program,
and that does not even import pyPgSQL.

Here are the relevant lines from pyPgSQL/libpq/__init__.py -

    from libpq import *
    from libpq import __version__

    HAVE_LONG_LONG_SUPPORT = dir().count('PgInt8') == 1

    #---------------------------------------------------------------+
    # Add support to pickle the following pyPgSQL objects:          |
    #       PgInt2, PgInt8, PgBoolean                               |
    #---------------------------------------------------------------+

    def _B(value):
        return PgBoolean(value)

    def _I2(value):
        return PgInt2(value)

    def _I8(value):
        return PgInt8(value)

Somehow pyPgSQL is responding to my unpickling command, and raising an
error because PgInt8 is not defined.

Here is another fact, which may provide a clue or may add confusion.
If I run exactly the same program from the Linux box, using it as the
client as well as the server, the error does not appear. I connect via
the external IP address, not via 127.0.0.1, so I would have thought it
would behave the same, but it does not.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, here is the reason. I mentioned above that a typical tuple
consists of (2,'Ar',17,1). I have found that under some circumstances
the 3rd element is of type 'long' instead of type 'int', and this is
what generates the error.

Whether it is a long or an int is determined by pyPgSQL itself. It is
a column value, where the column is of type 'serial', which means that
PostgreSQL will generate a next number if the row is being inserted.
If the row exists, the column value is returned along with all the
other columns, and is returned as type int. If the row does not exist,
I insert it, and then to retrieve the id generated, I have the
following piece of code -

    cur = db.cursor()
    cur.execute("select currval('%s_%s_Seq')" % (tableid,columnid) )
    rowid = cur.fetchone()[0]

In this case, rowid contains the correct value, but is of type long.

So this raises various questions -

Why is PgInt8 not defined?
Why does pyPgSQL affect my server program, which does not import any
of pyPgSQL?
Why does the error only occur when I connect from a remote machine?

Now that I have identified the problem, I can work around it, so this
has become a matter of correctness rather than a matter of urgency.

For those that have read this far, thanks for your patience.

Frank Millman


From amichail at gmail.com  Tue Aug 10 05:12:11 2004
From: amichail at gmail.com (Amir  Michail)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 02:12:11 -0700
Subject: tool to check whether formal and actual parameters have similar
	names
Message-ID: <cfa3hb$387@odak26.prod.google.com>

Hi,

I was wondering if there is a tool that will perform some heuristic
checking of actual and formal parameters to warn about likely errors.

Such a tool could check that formal and actual parameters have similar
names.

For example:

def plot(x,y): ...

plot( x1, y1 ) # ok

plot( y1, x1 ) # not ok, but this is ok:  plot (x=y1, y=x1)

plot (1, y) # not ok, but this is ok: plot(x=1, y)

We can take this further:

avg = x1 + x2
plot( avg, y) # ok since avg gets name x from x1, x2

Does this make any sense, even in a heuristic sense?
Does such a tool already exist?  Would it be useful?

Amir



From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Sun Aug 29 15:54:39 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 19:54:39 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgrecn$dgk$0$216.39.172.122@th
	<cgt43s$2rv$2@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <loom.20040829T215249-650@post.gmane.org>

Paul Morrow <pm_mon <at> yahoo.com> writes:
> Have you seen a significant number of cases where a function uses
> __xxx__ names for local variables?  Have you seen any?

Are there any examples currently of functions that use __xxx__ names in their 
body at all?  I haven't seen this, but I haven't really looked...

STeve



From itaborai83 at yahoo.com.br  Mon Aug 23 11:13:02 2004
From: itaborai83 at yahoo.com.br (Daniel Lemos Itaborai)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 08:13:02 -0700
Subject: Dynamic Scoping problem
Message-ID: <b8320fb9.0408230713.5f3d2d7a@posting.google.com>

I would like to first apologize my question, I just picked up Python
for a spin 4 days ago(loving it so far). I am having some trouble with
this...

# myproblem.py

x = 'wrong'

def bluft(x) : x()

def foo():
        x = 'right'
        def bar():
                global x
                print x
        bluft(bar)

# end myproblem.py


Is there a way to enforce scope resolution?


Thanks for the patience,
Daniel Lemos Itaborai


From qyron_spam at safe-mail.net  Fri Aug 20 10:00:31 2004
From: qyron_spam at safe-mail.net (QyRoN)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 07:00:31 -0700
Subject: Install Python on win32 without modifying registry
Message-ID: <2260b3c5.0408200600.4c0550c4@posting.google.com>

Hi

I need to install python-2.3 on my computer. The problem is that
python and many programs written in python (pythonwin for example) use
registry for storing parameters on python installation. Is there a way
to install without modifying the registry?


From bryanjugglercryptographer at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 17 14:25:38 2004
From: bryanjugglercryptographer at yahoo.com (Bryan Olson)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 11:25:38 -0700
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
References: <mailman.1779.1092728873.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1a517b5.0408170923.48f6d964@posting.google.com>

Michael wrote:
> Bryan Olson wrote:
> > Correct me if I'm wrong: Greenlets use a c-language extension to
> > do the routine switching; implementing the same in pure Python is
> > infeasable.
> 
> Correct. I never claimed that doing this in "pure" python was possible -
> largly because I think such a concept is pretty silly.
> 
> After all, what is "pure" anyway?
>    * Is using a module that comes with python allowed?

Most importantly: it means I can write in Python and run it with no
more than the standard Python distribution, on any of the many platforms
with reasonable support.


> IMO, the question is one of practicality. It is practical to use
> generators to build concurrent systems - and it works pretty well.

I've seen servers that rock written with explicit event handling,
threads, processes, and occasionally co-routines.  Where are the
great generator-based servers?


> > Generators rock, but they have a shadow of the power of co-routines.
> > Continuations are more powerful still.
> 
> And if you choose appropriate coding conventions every problem domain that
> co-routines and continuations can solve, generators can be used with
> almost equal effectiveness.
> 
> Having written large amounts of code using generators to gain parallelism
> in a single thread I don't say that lightly. I've found their simplicity
> useful for limiting the complexity of the architecture.

Have you been badly bitten by an evil co-routine?  They blow away 
generators on exactly the criteria you name.  Look at the specs of most
client-server protocols; they're defined in terms of the interaction of 
just the two parties.  With co-routines (or threads or processes), I
can implement a single line of control that handles just one client, then
support many clients just by changing the loop that accepts connections,
and adding yields within the I/O calls (plus maybe locking of the rare 
shared data).


-- 
--Bryan


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 31 08:33:53 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 08:33:53 -0400
Subject: use win32 COM in python
In-Reply-To: <tridncXml8Bm8qncRVn-oQ@powergate.ca>
References: <cguo6j$j67$1@news.yaako.com> <ch0ie8$8bg$1@news.yaako.com>
	<tridncXml8Bm8qncRVn-oQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <tridncTml8Cu7ancRVn-oQ@powergate.ca>

Peter Hansen wrote:

>  From ctypes, however, you can create special objects which ctypes can
> use as pointer types.  For example, byref(sometype) is roughly
> equivalent to "sometype * xxx" when using ctypes.

Oh, and I should mention that there is a dedicated mailing list
for ctypes so, after you have experimented a bit and read the
docs yourself, you should probably direct ctypes questions there
instead of here, for greatest effect.

-Peter


From robin at SPAMREMOVEjessikat.fsnet.co.uk  Thu Aug 26 03:44:39 2004
From: robin at SPAMREMOVEjessikat.fsnet.co.uk (Robin Becker)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:44:39 +0100
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2398.1093493689.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <20040819231139.D039A1E4003@bag.python.org>	<mailman.1999.1092969866.5135.python-list@python.org>	<eyqWc.223375$j62.10948731@phobos.telenet-ops.be>	<qVAWc.2328$MR2.9560@news1.mts.net>	<njemi0hrm3jb1kdc8mhg8krd9a4qu3e894@4ax.com>	<5cf809e9.0408241126.6e3fdd5b@posting.google.com>	<8ecda57b.0408251754.14ed27b9@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.2398.1093493689.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <412D94E7.4020405@jessikat.fsnet.co.uk>

Jonathan Daugherty wrote:
.....
> Is it just me or are these posts getting off-topic? :)
> 

makes a change, better than endless discussion of poorly designed 
changes to the core language anyhow :)
-- 
Robin Becker


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Mon Aug 30 10:47:25 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:47:25 -0500
Subject: PHP Documentation
References: <4133124f$0$281$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>
	<wpednS2Tk8udsa7cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<1gjc9sk.e6c0cwnxjvs5N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3_CdnTrTktNkoK7cRVn-qw@comcast.com>

Zope has such a system in place for their docs.  You can just ask
that the comments be hidden and they disappear.  It does appear to
provide a way to make comments, add examples clarification that
"may" get included in the next version of the docs.

Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.

"Alex Martelli" <aleaxit at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1gjc9sk.e6c0cwnxjvs5N%aleaxit at yahoo.com...
> Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
>    ...
> > 2) Many people think that the noise created by lots of user
> >     comments would far outweigh the value of the good comments
> >     that might be hidden somewhere within.
>
> As long as it's possible to request a view or download of the docs
> without the comments, I don't see how this could be a problem -- if you
> want to see the docs with comments you can, if not, you're no worse off
> than today.  With the kind of threshold-setting and ratings for various
> commenters that (e.g.) slashdot uses, you could also set up your
> preferences to see _some_ of the comments but not all.
>
> In theory any wiki page could be "defaced" by one nasty minded vandal,
> in practice most wikis seem to work decently well -- maybe people react
> positively to being trusted.  If comments (and posters thereof,
> eventually) can be rated, existing comments edited or removed only by
> authorized personnel, etc, etc, I suspect it would work.  No doubt the
> needed infrastructure already exists on the widely appreciated PHP doc
> pages, it remains to be seen whether we're humble enough to just copy it
> wholesale or if the prospect of running PHP code in a key supporting
> role for Python is just too embarassing;-).
>
>
> Alex




From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz  Wed Aug 25 23:36:39 2004
From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:36:39 +1200
Subject: How does a "script" differ from a "program" or "subroutine"?
In-Reply-To: <56cfb0e3.0408232247.2df68078@posting.google.com>
References: <cge1h0$8qd@odbk17.prod.google.com>
	<mailman.2253.1093310132.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<56cfb0e3.0408232247.2df68078@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <2p5469Fh01dgU1@uni-berlin.de>

Porky Pig Jr wrote:
> Phil Frost <indigo at bitglue.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.2253.1093310132.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> 
>> A script is just a program, but has the implication that it's a simple
>> program for a simple task.
> 
> I think the major implication is not that it's simple but it's written
> in some 'interpreted' (rather than compiled) language.

To my way of thinking, a "script" is a canned sequence of
commands for something that one normally uses interactively.
On that basis, python "scripts" aren't really scripts, they're
programs -- because the Python interpreter isn't normally
used interactively, except for trying things out during
programming.

-- 
Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept,
University of Canterbury,	
Christchurch, New Zealand
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg



From ken.beesley at xrce.xerox.com  Sun Aug 22 05:39:53 2004
From: ken.beesley at xrce.xerox.com (Ken Beesley)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:39:53 +0200
Subject: unicodedata name for \u000a
Message-ID: <412869E9.5070405@xrce.xerox.com>



Ken Beesley schreef:

  

>>
>> There is, of course, a Unicode name for \u000a,
>    
>

    Peter Kleiweg wrote:

    No, there isn't. Check
    http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0000.pdf



OK. I see that for 000A there is not now an official Unicode name in 
4.0, and that "LINE FEED (LF)" is an alias. Such an alias, shown in 
uppercase letters, indicates that it _was_ the name of the character in 
The Unicode Standard, Version 1.0. See The Unicode Standard 4.0, p. 415 
("Aliases"). This seems odd. One intuitively assumes that any defined 
Unicode character has a Unicode name.



From alex_stante at yahoo.de  Sun Aug 15 10:39:50 2004
From: alex_stante at yahoo.de (Alexander Stante)
Date: 15 Aug 2004 07:39:50 -0700
Subject: Control an external console program
Message-ID: <cfnsjm$m81@odah37.prod.google.com>

Hi,

I know Python since about 3 days or so and I like it very much :-) I am
currently tying to control an external console driven program but I
have encountered some problems while trying to do so.

Suppose I will try to control a program like a ftp command line client.
At first I wrote something like:

import popen2

fin, fout = popen2.popen2("ftp")
print "Out: " + fin.readline()

I expected to get an output like "Out: ftp>" but I got not nothing. I
think the reason is that readline() reads a line till it encountered a
"\n" or EOF, but nothing of both happen because the ftp client just
wrote the prompt and is now waiting for input, or not? Therefore I
thought, ok I just write an "\n" to fout and because the ftp client
will echo it I can read a line with readline() and get the prompt. But
it doesn't work either. Now I started asking myself if it just work
this way at all. Instead of just writing a "\n" to fout I wrote
"help\n" and read a line from fin and this time I got the first line of
the output from the help command *yeeha* :-) Unfortunately any
successive read from fin does not work. I can only read the first line
the help command issued, not the 5 or 6 following the first line.

So my question is how do I control a command line tool? I want to
interactively control a command line tool, so I will issue some
commands need the output from the tool and act acording to it. I guess
readline() is not the answer because if there is no line to read
present it just waits. Can anyone give me some hints for writing such a
program? How is the python command line tool integrated in the many
IDE's around? I guess they have the same problem, or not?

Bye
Alex



From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Tue Aug  3 09:13:37 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 15:13:37 +0200
Subject: how do i  do this - stream file
References: <mailman.1083.1091521022.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2n9hc2Fuo4olU1@uni-berlin.de>

> How do i create and stream a file?
> On a webpage i have a link to a file. Next to it i would like link, which,
> when pressed, runs a script that calculates the signature of the file,
> pickles the signature to a file and then gives a dialog box asking the
> user whether they would like to save the file or open it.
> 
> I have the script to do the signing and pickle the signature into a file,
> but how do i allow the user to download it?

You'll need a webserver - there exist simple http-servers in the standard
modules, you can use twisted or one of the plethorea of
web-serving-solutions  that exist for python, like (on particular order nor
a complete list) quixote, zope, mod_python and so on....

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From gregor.jan at NOSPAMquick.cz  Sun Aug 15 12:33:14 2004
From: gregor.jan at NOSPAMquick.cz (Jan Gregor)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 18:33:14 +0200
Subject: python a jdbc
Message-ID: <slrnchv42a.278.gregor.jan@ins1.opera.com>

Is there some to use jdbc driver with python ? I thought about
communication between java process and python throught sockets. Simple
test worked fine. 


Jan


From peufeu at free.fr  Sun Aug  1 07:42:45 2004
From: peufeu at free.fr (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Pierre-Fr=E9d=E9ric_Caillaud?=)
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 13:42:45 +0200
Subject: language/distro preferences
References: <mailman.967.1091200517.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <opsb1xhjpz1v4ijd@musicbox>


	I use Gentoo. Their portage system is really, really good. Being able to  
download and install programs and all their dependencies, using my  
compilation options... that makes life so much simpler...

	And about PHP, I hate it. The language is so weak. Nothing is OO. The  
libraries are inconsistentand everything is in a big mess, due to the  
absence of namespaces.

	I guess this is best illustrated by the following example :

	Python #1:
	if char in string:
		do stuff

	if item in array:
		do stuff

	Python #2:
	print mystuff.getsomestuff().getsomeattribute().getname().capitalize()

	PHP #1:
	Um, which of the 50 string functions should I use ? (lookup help).
	Um, I don't remember, should I put the haystack or the needle first ? It  
depends on which function you choose.
	Um, does it return false, O, -1, or null on failure ? (It depends on  
which function you choose)
	Um, what's the function name for an array ? is it find_array or  
array_find or in_array or array_has_key ? mmm... what if the key is a  
string... is it a different function... mmm

	PHP #2 :
	$temp = $mystuff->getsomestuff();
	$temp = $temp->getsomeattribute();
	echo strtocap or somthing( $temp->getname(); )

	You get it ?

On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:15:14 -0500, Josh Close <narshe at gmail.com> wrote:

> I saw a question in a PHP list about the differences between php and
> perl, and what the advantages between the two are, but I think I was
> the only person that mentioned anything about python in the
> discussion.
>
> This makes me wonder what the python group things about these other  
> languages.
>
> Python vs. Perl. vs. PHP vs. C# (and other .NET languages) vs. Java
> vs. C vs. C++ vs. whatever other language you can think of.
>
> I think python is the king of command line. It's way faster than PHP.
> It's OO and has exceptions which perl doesn't, and PHP supports very
> poorly.
>
> I won't touch Perl with a 10 ft. pole anymore. No need.
>
> PHP I still use for web. Mod_python isn't the easiest language to
> write fast web pages in.
>
> I think Java is just terrible. Very very slow. It has a nice size
> library, but I really don't care :P.
>
> C and C++ are cool, but take a lot longer to develop in.
>
> I actually like C# quite a bit. I think it's good for windows use and
> asp.net. I've seen all the ranting about how much everyone hate's it,
> so I won't say any more.
>
> This brings up the question about linux distributions. Which one and
> why? I use Gentoo and I think there is nothing better. It's way more
> configurable than any other distro. Portage is by far the best package
> management system out there. Gentoo makes administration life so much
> easier. When I've used redhat in the past (not by choice), I've had to
> install most programs by hand because I either couldn't find a stupid
> rpm for it, or there wasn't a new enough version rpm available. Yes,
> they install instantly, but they are not as up to date or
> configurable. I've used suse a little and didn't like it. If I were to
> try any other distro, it would probably be linux from scratch. Gentoo
> has made my life so much better. I could go on and on..... but I
> won't.
>
> Just curious what the python world uses and why.
>
> -Josh



From brent.hughes at comcast.net  Wed Aug 25 20:37:23 2004
From: brent.hughes at comcast.net (Brent W. Hughes)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:37:23 GMT
Subject: Idle problem
Message-ID: <6haXc.183583$8_6.163380@attbi_s04>

Sometimes when I try to start up idle.py (by double-clicking on the icon), I
get the message:
Python subprocess socket error: Connection refused, retrying....
It repeats the message a couple of times and then prints:
Connection to Idle failed, exiting.

Any idea what's going on?




From markus_wankusGETRIDOFALLCAPS at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 26 08:53:58 2004
From: markus_wankusGETRIDOFALLCAPS at hotmail.com (Markus Wankus)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:53:58 -0400
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
In-Reply-To: <kw1xhujrt1.fsf@merced.netfonds.no>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.SOL.4.58.0408251722510.568@zaphod.rite-group.com>
	<kw1xhujrt1.fsf@merced.netfonds.no>
Message-ID: <Q3lXc.22457$_H5.654259@news20.bellglobal.com>

>>I think you're getting confused with the Blue ?yster Cult.
>>Don't Fear the Reaper - great song.
> 
> 

It was a great song, but it needed more cowbell...

Mark.


From me at privacy.net  Mon Aug 16 11:33:23 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Richard Hanson)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:33:23 -0700
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<56cfb0e3.0408142004.511a8a8e@posting.google.com>
	<5hbvh0hnngn8sotqkgav3o1mvs61n039e5@4ax.com>
	<LIqdndjJz9MWob3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <klk1i05lshkrqs0s3o9cjcf5j9gbdmi85f@4ax.com>

[Re Python's indentation -- "Neat!" or "Yuck!"]

For the record, my first reaction to *braces* years ago, was:
"Yuck!"

;-)

stirring-the-pot-ly y'rs,
Richard

-- 
R Hanson [The mangled email addie below works.]
sick<P0INT>ole<PERI0D>fart<PIE_DEC0_SYNTAX>newsguy<MARK>com


From meldron at meldron.org  Mon Aug 23 03:55:49 2004
From: meldron at meldron.org (Bernd Kaiser)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 09:55:49 +0200
Subject: 100 % portable ?
In-Reply-To: <sl1nv1-7jm.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
References: <rp_Vc.221989$xO.10939509@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<sl1nv1-7jm.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
Message-ID: <2otm5mFed44hU1@uni-berlin.de>

You can use os.environ["HOME"], this will return the user's home dir.

Roger Binns wrote:
> Note that for some things you would want different code.  For
> example the default location to save files may be My Documents
> on Windows and $HOME on Linux and Mac.  Similarly you would
> want to save configuration settings in the registry on Windows
> and dot files on Linux and Mac.



From indigo at bitglue.com  Mon Aug 23 20:15:08 2004
From: indigo at bitglue.com (Phil Frost)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:15:08 -0400
Subject: Getting at the bits of a 32-bit integer
In-Reply-To: <85b54e91.0408231552.75f85727@posting.google.com>
References: <85b54e91.0408231552.75f85727@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <20040824001508.GB24354@unununium.org>

If you really want to do that, you can use the bitwise "and" and "or"
operators to unset/set bits, respectivly. For example, if you want to
set bit 9, that's 0x0100, or 0000 0001 0000 0000 in binary. The integer
'i' with bit 9 unset is 'i & ~0x0100' (~ is the one's complement or
bitwise not operator; it inverts all the bits), and 'i | 0x0100' is 'i'
with bit 9 set. You can also use the bitwise exclusive or "^" to toggle
a bit, like 'i ^ 0x0100'.

However, doing this sort of thing is rather nonpythonic. Python
abstracts the platform's representation of an integer. Integers in
Python arn't always 32 bits; they are actually the size of C's 'long'
type, which is to say you can find the size by looking at sys.maxint,
but it's more trouble than it's worth. You will also encounter problems
if you change the highest bit:

>>> 10 ^ (1 << 31)
__main__:1: FutureWarning: x<<y losing bits or changing sign will return
a long in Python 2.4 and up
-2147483638

Note that the error message isn't even accurate. This is probably a good
indication that this isn't a common use case!

So, short story: use a bool (True/False)

On Mon, Aug 23, 2004 at 04:52:07PM -0700, Jacob H wrote:
> Hi there list,
> 
> I'm a beginning programmer, so please correct me if any of the
> following assumptions are wrong.
> 
> Suppose I have the decimal number 255. Since integers in Python are 32
> bits, it would look like this in binary:
> 
> 00000000 00000000 00000000 11111111
> 
> There are plenty of unused bits to the left of the number itself. If I
> wanted to use some of these bits as true/false flags, how would I go
> about it? In Python, how do I write code that gets at the leftmost
> byte, or the third bit from the left of the set of 32, or the
> rightmost byte plus the bit to its left, etc...
> 
> Thanks in advance for any help on this. :)


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Thu Aug 26 08:34:16 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:34:16 GMT
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>
	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<mailman.2402.1093505483.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <a9lri05eek34jj3vfuah3r8sqluobsihij@4ax.com>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:31:16 +1000, Anthony Baxter
<anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:47:35 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> What you're trying to illustrate (I believe) is a superclass doing
>> something based on the docstring of a subclass.  Yes this certainly does
>> happen.  But the superclass and subclass are separate objects.  I was
>> talking about the situation where a function does something based on
>> /its own/ metadata.  That is what I'm saying virtually never happens,
>> and therefore it's ok to make all assignments to __xxx__ attributes
>> inside of a function def create /function attributes/ rather than /local
>> variables/.
>
>This is an extraordinarily complex idea - you're proposing that inside
>a function there is now access to a brand new namespace, that of the
>function object itself. I don't think you appreciate just _how_ much
>work this would requre, nor the complexity of trying to explain this
>to users. Remember, at the moment, you can't even get access to the
>function object itself from inside the function, without using a hack
>like sys._getframe() or raising an exception.
>
>Putting aside nested scopes for the moment, there are three namespaces
>that are used in Python - local, module level global, and builtins.
>You're proposing that there is a new namespace, that of the function
>object, and that it only be used by accessing any local variable that
>starts or ends with two underscores. At the moment, the scoping rules
>for Python are _extremely_ simple. Do you really want to add something
>like this, that looks like a hack, smells like a hack, and who's
>implementation would be a hack? I know I don't want to see something
>like this.


Though I am learning stuff by trying to keep up with this conversation
- I should probably stay out of it, directly.

But, as I publically demonstrated in my confusion about __name__

...to someone educated from within Python, mostly by chucking out
code, rather than reading documentation - that  __name__  accessed
from within the function body is something totally different from
__name__ accessed from outside of it, was not what I think the
language taught me to expect.  I might have intuited that to expect
otherwise would be "magic", but thought, somehow, that the __xxx__
implied the availability of that kind of magic. 

In other words, it would have surprised me less to have been right
than to have benn wrong.

Though I have learned not to be shocked about being wrong ;)

And can understand the possiblity that others with other backgrounds
might be surprised if I had been right.

Does

"""
Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those!
"""

come into play here at all?

Art



From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Wed Aug 11 18:02:09 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:02:09 -0700
Subject: 'break' Causes Execution of Procedure?
In-Reply-To: <cfdvj2$obm$1@news01.intel.com>
References: <cfdif9$hhm$1@news01.intel.com>
	<10hkq3u54ht2h4e@corp.supernews.com>
	<cfdvj2$obm$1@news01.intel.com>
Message-ID: <10hl5q9p2m53g59@corp.supernews.com>

Scott Brady Drummonds wrote:

>After reading your suggestion, I'm wondering why I caught the exception in
>the loop as opposed to outside of the loop.  I changed the implementation as
>you suggested and my program is now working correctly.  Of course, something
>tells me that I just covered up a bug as opposed to removing it.
>  
>

Probably you're right about that.  Better to use your original code to 
figure out what's going wrong, than to proceed with changed code that 
might not fix the problem.  Once you've found the bug,  *then* you can 
switch to catching the exception outside of the loop. ;)

If your main() function has so much code, then try breaking that down 
into several smaller functions.  It's almost certain that you can break 
a large function into several logical "sections"; if you make each of 
those sections into a separate function, it'll probably be easier to 
isolate the specific problem.

As an example, you could probably isolate that for loop within a 
subfunction --

def ProcessCycleMap(cycleMap, keys, skipList):
    for cycle in keys:
        ....

You may also want to go through your code and verify that you don't have 
anyplace that mixes tabs and spaces, which can lead to invisibly 
mismatched indentation.  It may be that the compiler sees your code 
structure a bit differently than you do...  (Best procedure here is to 
simply run tabnanny.py over your code.)

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From JSmuts at clover.co.za  Mon Aug  2 02:57:16 2004
From: JSmuts at clover.co.za (Jaco Smuts)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 08:57:16 +0200
Subject: MySQLdb select
In-Reply-To: <410BAE49.7000000@ghaering.de>
Message-ID: <OFDD9817BA.40D68968-ON42256EE4.0025F0FF-42256EE4.002633C4@clover.co.za>

Gerhard

That's sounds like great advice, not sure I've seen documentation on how 
to do this though?

Could you maybe provide us with a sample on how to do this.

thanks a lot
jaco







Gerhard H?ring <gh at ghaering.de>
Sent by: python-list-bounces+jsmuts=clover.co.za at python.org
07/31/2004 04:35 PM
 
        To:     python-list at python.org
        cc: 
        Subject:        Re: MySQLdb select


F. GEIGER wrote:


That's particularly BAD STYLE. It's best to keep to letting the DB-API 
do the proper quoting for all parameters.

-- Gerhard
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

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From iketo2 at netscape.net  Sat Aug 14 12:13:37 2004
From: iketo2 at netscape.net (Isaac To)
Date: 15 Aug 2004 00:13:37 +0800
Subject: Regular Expressions
References: <cflc77$p20$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
Message-ID: <874qn53dfy.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>

>>>>> "Jens" == Jens Thiede <jens.news at webgear.co.za> writes:

    Jens> What is the easiest way to generate a list that contains all
    Jens> the remnants of re.findall (the inverse of the following).

You mean, complement?

    Jens> re.split doesn't seem to work quite well

Why?

>>> obj=re.compile(r'<t>.*?</t>', re.S|re.I)
>>> obj.split('def<T>abc\n def</T>ghi jkl\nmno\n<t>abc</t>haha')
['def', 'ghi jkl\nmno\n', 'haha']
>>> obj.findall('def<T>abc\n def</T>ghi jkl\nmno\n<t>abc</t>haha')
['<T>abc\n def</T>', '<t>abc</t>']

>>> obj=re.compile(r'<t>.*</t>', re.S|re.I)
>>> obj.split('def<T>abc\n def</T>ghi jkl\nmno\n<t>abc</t>haha')
['def', 'haha']
>>> obj.findall('def<T>abc\n def</T>ghi jkl\nmno\n<t>abc</t>haha')
['<T>abc\n def</T>ghi jkl\nmno\n<t>abc</t>']

Looks like it is doing the job, right?

Regards,
Isaac.


From thomas.krueger at gmx.net  Tue Aug 31 06:40:02 2004
From: thomas.krueger at gmx.net (Thomas =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kr=FCger?=)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 12:40:02 +0200
Subject: invalid token problem ?
References: <5db3bf00.0408310133.39de601c@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <ch1ki4$o78$00$1@news.t-online.com>

tag wrote:

> Can anyone please explain why I am getting the error ? What am I
> missing ??

Well the answer is already given:
 
> xml.sax._exceptions.SAXParseException: <stdin>:21:56: not well-formed

Your XML is not well-formed. All quotation marks in CDATA fields (outside of
a tag) must be quoted to &quot;.

You XML should be: 

<Cell Col="2" Row="10">=&quot;Actual Asset mix
 &quot;&text($C$46,&quot;dd-mmm-yyyy&quot;)</Cell>

Thomas


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 02:37:54 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:37:54 +1000
Subject: Why I love python.
In-Reply-To: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408122337373ad62@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 Aug 2004 17:05:34 -0700, Michael Scarlett <bitshadow at yahoo.com> wrote:
> [ pie decorators ]
> Am i the only one with a
> visceral reaction to this thing???

So did you have a similar reaction on first hitting the indentation for
blocks? I know I dimly recall thinking that this was very strange and
horrible (dimly, because it was 1992 or 1993).


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Aug 10 16:31:39 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:31:39 -0400
Subject: IronPython-0.6 is now available!
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com><mailman.1398.1092065544.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<278de0e.0408100515.5fd3740c@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfbbbc$8mh$1@sea.gmane.org>


> The good thing about the future stable version of Ironpython, is that
> your code will be able to interoperate with code written in other .NET
>  compliant languages, and its performance will be better than the
> standard implementation.

These are, of course, predictions, not facts.  As to performance: IP ran
some features faster and some slower.  It is possible the the features
tested are a biased sample.  It will be interesting to see the final
result.

In any case, it is standard to do time-consuming numerical computation in
Python with the quasi-standard numerical extensions.  Unless and until the
these are ported to .NET, such programs will not run.  Even when they do,
there is no reason to think that they will be significantly faster.

So some programs may benefit, other may not.

Terry J. Reedy





From bh at intevation.de  Thu Aug 12 11:10:46 2004
From: bh at intevation.de (Bernhard Herzog)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:10:46 +0200
Subject: decorator with ```
References: <mailman.1555.1092303160.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <s9zacx0ie89.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>

Roman Suzi <rnd at onego.ru> writes:

> ```staticmethod```
> def makeDecoratorSyntax(spec=None):
>     raise NotImplementedException()

That's already legal Python, although it's not very useful:

>>> ```staticmethod```
'\'"<type \\\'staticmethod\\\'>"\''
>>> def makeDecoratorSyntax(spec=None):
...     raise NotImplementedException()
... 
>>> 

   Bernhard

-- 
Intevation GmbH                                 http://intevation.de/
Skencil                                http://sketch.sourceforge.net/
Thuban                                  http://thuban.intevation.org/


From a at b.com  Tue Aug 17 10:11:45 2004
From: a at b.com (wonder)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 22:11:45 +0800
Subject: passing the url of the current webpage to python script
Message-ID: <cft5bh$g8e$1@news.hgc.com.hk>

Dan Greenblatt wrote:

 > wonder wrote:
 >
 >> Hi,
 >>
 >> How can I pass the url of the current webpage link to a python 
script in   html?
 >>
 >> thanks
 >> sam
 >
 >
 > are you using a python script as a helper application?


yeah, sort of. I m building a html page that will call a python script 
by passing it the current URL of the webpage. The html page will be 
opened by any web user with any web browser.

thanks
sam


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 04:17:59 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:17:59 +1000
Subject: Dr. Dobb's Python-URL! - weekly Python news and links (Aug 23)
In-Reply-To: <cgeprt$s3k$04$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <cgdfku$svs$1@lairds.us>
	<mailman.2257.1093319591.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgeprt$s3k$04$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040824011764b5f9fe@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:14:05 +0200, Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:
> The fraction of your posts I have read went from (I'm sharpening)
> "What crap are you proposing as an alternative to '@'? Guido won't listen
> anyway" to "If you want it, at least get it right"
> I liked that and that's why you are in the Python-URL.

That's probably a way of reading it - although I think my original
"Guido won't listen" were more probably "Guido doesn't care about
people voting that they hate a syntax". Dictators are like that.

And yes, some of my posts could probably be interpreted as "what crap is this?" 

On the other hand, I've been really quite impressed how much useful
effort has been channelled out what were initially quite rabid posts
(on both sides <wink>) into a useful result (the J2 paper, the J2
implementation). It speaks positively about the python community that
this was done, and done, by and large, without much participation from
any of the existing python developers[1].

Regardless of what result comes out of this, I think that this has
been a good thing - as I think I commented earlier in this thread,
after the mega-horror of the ternary operators meltdown, it's good to
see from the point of view of community involvement in the language.

[1] I don't count my snarking as a particularly useful form of
participation - more a combination of trying to keep people honest and
my normal contrariness.


From t-meyer at ihug.co.nz  Tue Aug 10 03:05:52 2004
From: t-meyer at ihug.co.nz (Tony Meyer)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 19:05:52 +1200
Subject: Python equivalent to a C trick
In-Reply-To: <ECBA357DDED63B4995F5C1F5CBE5B1E88420F5@its-xchg4.massey.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <ECBA357DDED63B4995F5C1F5CBE5B1E86C547F@its-xchg4.massey.ac.nz>

> Is there a python equivalent of this trick in C?
> 
> Logic_Test ? True_Result : False_Result

Happily <wink>, no.

See:

<http://www.google.com/search?q=python+ternary+operator>
<http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0308.html>
<http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/52282>

=Tony Meyer




From lconrad at laymusic.org  Fri Aug  6 17:15:13 2004
From: lconrad at laymusic.org (Laura Conrad)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 17:15:13 -0400
Subject: Killing children
References: <87smb0w4ln.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
	<mailman.1297.1091814690.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<87d624vxt2.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
	<2eidnefxXqX3co7cRVn-tA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <878ycsvuhq.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>

>>>>> "Peter" == Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> writes:

    Peter> Laura Conrad wrote:
    >> p = os.spawnl(os.P_NOWAIT, "/usr/bin/python", "python", "hobo.py", '/dev/ttyS0', 5)
    >> print p
    >> os.system("ps")
    >> time.sleep(60)
    >> os.system("kill %d" % p)

    Peter> This suggests that you believe the return value from os.spawnl() is
    Peter> actually the PID.  Unfortunately that doesn't appear to be the case
    Peter> on Windows.  See the note in the doc-string for my code sample from
    Peter> the previous post (on Windows spawn* actually returns a "handle",
    Peter> not the PID itself, and apparently turning the one into the other
    Peter> is non-trivial).

So you think os.kill(p) might be the way to kill it?   But does anyone
know how to get it started right?


-- 
Laura (mailto:lconrad at laymusic.org , http://www.laymusic.org/ )
(617) 661-8097	fax: (501) 641-5011
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139




From sandysj at juno.com  Thu Aug 26 17:00:14 2004
From: sandysj at juno.com (Jeff Sandys)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 21:00:14 GMT
Subject: Best GUI- Python for children - pygame and blender32
References: <f06d8508.0408250712.63360fc2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <412E4F5E.6C836AF3@juno.com>

I made the mistake of trying to teach computer programming with 
the goal of writing a game, and ended up alienating all the 
students.  First, the students who were serious about learning 
about programming, to use the computer as a tool, never returned 
after they learned we were going to write a game.  All that was 
left were students with low attention spans, who played Doom, and 
wanted to make their own Doom game.  They weren't interested in 
something simple like starting with Pong or Hunt the Wampus.

I would advise teaching programming as a serious craft that can 
also be fun.  Most programmers believe that programming is the 
greatest game of all.  Take a look at Georgia Tech's Intro to 
Media Computing, a CS class for non-majors.  The first project 
is to use a blue screen background to put a picture of themselves 
in another picture.  It is just a few lines of code but they 
learn about data, functions, loops and the if statement.  The 
JIT approach is used in this class.
     http://coweb.cc.gatech.edu/mediaComp-plan

If you are serious about 3D I would use VPython for dynamic
images and POVRay for static 3D.  Check out Kirby Urner's 
stuff:
     http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/oop.html

For a 2d GUI, wxpython works cleanly on most all platforms, 
but it isn't easy.  If you want 2d GUI I would focus on web 
and html generation, most kids know a little html.

Pygame is a nice cross platform package, but again it is not 
easy.  If students could write a Pygame in a few weeks of 
classtime the Pygame site would be full of games.  Check out 
Sean Riley's _Game Programmign with Python_ or this site:
    http://childsplay.sourceforge.net

If you really want games I would look at David Ahl's old 
Basic computer games books.  These are text terminal type 
of games like 'hunt the wampus' that are fun and teach the 
basic organization of programming and games, and are do-able!
If you have a web server these games could be ported to 
python to run on the web, your school will never forgive you.

My approach will be that of a guild with apprentices, journeymen 
and masters.  I'll teach the apprentices the basics, they'll work 
in pairs.  Once they have a good understanding of Python, they 
will bea journeyman who pairs with a master.  The master can 
write complete programs with very little outside help.  They'll 
get their projects from a list the teachers make, or can work on 
their own project.  The completed projects will be posted on a 
webserver where anyone can download them.  Popular projects will 
be converted into web applications.  I'm trying to get the 
teachers or school to pay for the projects so that we can reward 
the students.

What age group are you working with?  I'm working as a volunteer 
in an after school 7th and 8th grade programming club.

I do incourage you to continue working on your tutorial and 
share your progress on the Python edu-sig:
    http://www.python.org/sigs/edu-sig/

Thanks,
Jeff Sandys

Andr? Roberge wrote:
> 
...
> I am learning Python (which, as everyone know is the best language :-)
> so that I can write a tutorial to teach my kids about computer
> programming.  The motivation for them will be to use Python to create
> their own games using pygame and, eventually, blender3d.


From d-hanst at online.no  Wed Aug 11 15:59:43 2004
From: d-hanst at online.no (Dag Hansteen)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 21:59:43 +0200
Subject: Question
Message-ID: <002b01c47fdd$bf0c2280$4e01a8c0@dagan>

I make a GUI calculator in wxPython.
How can I do the following without having to use eval?:

    def OnCalc(self, event):
        try:
            regnestykke = self.formel.GetValue()
            svar = eval(regnestykke)
            svar = str(svar)
            self.answer.SetValue(svar)
        except:
            self.answer.SetValue("Error! Check Syntax!")

"""
self.formel is defined as wxTextCtrl for the input from user to be calculated 
self.answer is defined as wxTextCtrl for the answer of the users input
"""




"Thomas Kr?ger" <thomas.krueger at gmx.net> skrev i melding news:cf8ehd$kuk$03$1 at news.t-online.com...
> Dag Hansteen wrote:
> 
> >>>> s = "2+2"
> >>>> answer = int(str(s))
> > Traceback (most recent call last):
> >   File "<pyshell#64>", line 1, in ?
> >     answer = int(str(s))
> > ValueError: invalid literal for int(): 2+2
> > 
> > How do I this ? I have a string with a such expression and I want to
> > return the answer in a variable.
> 
> eval('2+2')
> -> 4
> 
> Thomas
> 
> -- 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 
> 
> 
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From robin at SPAMREMOVEjessikat.fsnet.co.uk  Wed Aug 18 03:51:31 2004
From: robin at SPAMREMOVEjessikat.fsnet.co.uk (Robin Becker)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 08:51:31 +0100
Subject: Is it possible to write a DLL using python
In-Reply-To: <2e363c08.0408171234.5ceaf1c7@posting.google.com>
References: <cft24m$njb$1@news-reader2.wanadoo.fr>
	<2e363c08.0408171234.5ceaf1c7@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <41230A83.9050302@jessikat.fsnet.co.uk>

Paul Miller wrote:
> AMD <amdescombes at qualicontrol.com> wrote in message news:<cft24m$njb$1 at news-reader2.wanadoo.fr>...
>  
> 
>>I need to write a Win32 DLL and I would like to use Python instead of 
>>VB, C++ or Delphi. Is this possible?
> 
> 
> No.  It is possible to interface to and from Python via other
> languages, but since Python does not create native code, you cannot
> create a DLL with it.

This is not strictly true. At work I have made DLLs which encapsulate 
the base python code and then link themselves to a specialized version 
of Python (to avoid clashes with any other python). At the extreme we 
made a Darwin shared library which encapsulated our application code and 
the whole of python. I made use(misuse probably) of the freeze tool to 
accomplish this latter. The result was a single binary .so with a simple 
interface that used python internally.

Python doesn't make this easy (the startup is fairly complex), but it is 
possible.
-- 
Robin Becker


From apardon at forel.vub.ac.be  Tue Aug 31 06:33:07 2004
From: apardon at forel.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 10:33:07 GMT
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87hdqok9i6.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1rfz68ely9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<876574k7du.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1r3c28ejis.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<zILXc.54863$xi6.26091@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<1rllg0cb3m.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<874qmovxna.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
Message-ID: <slrncj8kv2.kp.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>

Op 2004-08-28, Isaac To schreef <iketo2 at netscape.net>:
>>>>>> "Kjetil" == Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no> writes:
>
>    Kjetil> I find this attitude a little defensive.  Python has much
>    Kjetil> more to offer than just strict indentation.  although it's
>    Kjetil> probably the feature you notice first, it's not enough to
>    Kjetil> make Python a superior language.
>
> For me, it is *the* feature that make it stands out from the scripting
> crowd.  There are other things nice in Python, but as long as there is
> one big enough killing feature, people will use the language enough to
> add others.
>
>    Kjetil> after all, code in _any_ language written by a
>    Kjetil> professional will have strict indentation.  so it's just
>    Kjetil> syntax.
>
> No.  In all other languages, people deal with *two* ways to find which
> statement is associated with an if/while/for/whatever statement and
> which is not: by looking at the indentation, and by looking at the
> braces.  They normally look at the indentation, since it is the
> quicker way.  But when they find something wrong, they look at the
> defining braces, sometimes deeply hidden in long expressions and
> statements combined into one line.  In Python, we have *one and only
> one* way to find which statement is associated with an
> if/while/for/whatever statement, and this is the quicker way that
> people are used to.

I doubt that.

I used to limit myself to indentation to see which code belonged
to which control. But then I found myself witch controls that
were so nested it was hard to see to which if a particular
else suite belonged and I started to use end markers in comments
to make the structure more visible.

> This single feature reduces the amount of bugs
> that you would introduce when editing and modifying code.

Yes it does, but so does a language that enforces endmarkers.

> More
> importantly, this single feature allows you to be much less stressed
> when editing code.

IME the use of end markers helps too.

-- 
Antoon Pardon


From pje at telecommunity.com  Wed Aug  4 22:14:41 2004
From: pje at telecommunity.com (Phillip J. Eby)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 22:14:41 -0400
Subject: PyProtocols 0.9.3 Final
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20040804221232.0225d770@mail.telecommunity.com>

As there were no further bugs reported for PyProtocols 0.9.3rc2, 
PyProtocols 0.9.3 final is now available for download.  There are no 
practical changes from rc2, except for file and documentation revision 
numbers and dates.


What is PyProtocols?
--------------------

PyProtocols is an extended implementation of PEP 246, adding a new 
"declaration  API" that lets you easily define your own interfaces and 
adapters, and declare what adapters should be used to adapt what types, 
objects, or interfaces.  Using PyProtocols, you can easily make flexible 
frameworks that you or other developers can extend without needing to 
modify the base framework.  PyProtocols interfaces can interoperate with 
those of Twisted and Zope, or can be used entirely standalone.

PyProtocols may be used, modified, and distributed under the same terms and 
conditions as Python or Zope.


What's new in version 0.9.3? (Highlights)
--------------------------------------------

* Adapter factories can now accept just one argument, the way Twisted and 
Zope adapters do.

* Interface and protocol objects can be called, as a shortcut for 'adapt()' 
(as Zope and Twisted interfaces do)

* You can now more easily install PyProtocols without a C compiler, using 
the '--without-speedups' option to 'setup.py' (see the README.txt file for 
details.)

* Numerous other bug fixes and enhancements - see CHANGES.txt for details.

IMPORTANT: If you are upgrading from a previous version of PyProtocols, 
please read UPGRADING.txt for important information.  Certain rarely-used 
features have been deprecated, and others have changed slightly.  Most 
users should not experience any problems (except perhaps for 
DeprecationWarnings), but please be sure to verify this before you upgrade 
any production code from 0.9.2 to 0.9.3.


PyProtocols Resources
---------------------

* Upgrading to PyProtocols 0.9.3 (and a look ahead to 1.0)
    http://peak.telecommunity.com/protocol_api/UPGRADING.txt.html

* Detailed Changes for all releases:
    http://peak.telecommunity.com/protocol_api/CHANGES.txt.html

* Release notes, installation instructions, and browsable API docs:
    http://peak.telecommunity.com/protocol_api/

* Source and Binary Releases:
    http://peak.telecommunity.com/dist/

* Reference Manual (HTML):
    http://peak.telecommunity.com/protocol_ref/module-protocols.html

* Reference Manual (PDF):
    http://peak.telecommunity.com/protocol_ref.pdf

* Browsable CVS Repository:
    http://cvs.eby-sarna.com/PyProtocols/ 



From FBatista at uniFON.com.ar  Fri Aug  6 14:36:22 2004
From: FBatista at uniFON.com.ar (Batista, Facundo)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:36:22 -0300 
Subject: Extending python.
Message-ID: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C7779@escpl.tcp.com.ar>

Maybe this will help you:

http://www.python.org/doc/faq/extending.html

.	Facundo

#- -----Mensaje original-----
#- De: Grzegorz Dostatni [mailto:grzegorz at ee.ualberta.ca]
#- Enviado el: Viernes, 06 de Agosto de 2004 13:35
#- Para: python-list at python.org
#- Asunto: Extending python.
#- 
#- 
#- 
#- Cheers.
#- 
#- More questions.
#- Let's say I'm trying to extend python with a c module. That 
#- module cannot
#- be dynamically loaded (for reasons outside my control). I 
#- have to create a
#- custom python executable (or more likely custom python library).
#- How would I do that? Is there documentation on that 
#- somewhere? Most of
#- what I've seen was for dynamic loading.
#- 
#- 2nd Step:
#- Let's say I'm doing it under windows, using Visual Studio. Is there
#- anything I have to be aware of?
#- 
#- 3rd Step:
#- Let's say I don't have the source available. I do have the 
#- object files,
#- the resulting libraries and the header files though.
#- 
#- Greg
#- 
#- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all 
#- possible worlds,
#-  and the pessimist fears this is true."
#- 	- James Branch Cabell
#- 
#- 
#- -- 
#- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
#- 


From http  Fri Aug 27 15:05:33 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 12:05:33 -0700
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7xzn4gwgea.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:
> > Here is a python feature that I would like: to be able to import modules
> > from an archive like the jar files in Java.  Maybe a regular tar file?
> 
> Python 2.3 lets you import modules from a zipfile.  The zip format is
> better than tar when you just need to get one file from it, which is why
> java's jar files are also basically zipfiles.

Jar files are -signed- zip files.  Is there some reason to not do that
for Python?


From rnd at onego.ru  Fri Aug 13 12:55:39 2004
From: rnd at onego.ru (Roman Suzi)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 20:55:39 +0400 (MSD)
Subject: def ... decorate
In-Reply-To: <16668.57321.308134.676624@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
	<slrnchnlm3.vq2.nick@irishsea.home.craig-wood.com>
	<16668.57321.308134.676624@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408132052020.3596@rnd.onego.ru>


Bingo!

Just replace decorate with "from" and the nice syntax is found:

    def f:
        staticmethod
        grammarrule('statement : expression')
        version("Added in 2.4")
        deprecatedmethod
        type_(None)
    from self, p:
        """docstring here"""
        print p[1]

or special short variant for one-liners:

    def n staticmethod from (self, p): return p[1]

(Though I wonder why not just

    n = staticmethod(lambda self, p: p[1])

)


(I've added details to the PythonDecorators wiki)

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Skip Montanaro wrote:

>>>>>> "Nick" == Nick Craig-Wood <nick at craig-wood.com> writes:
>
>    Steven> decorate:
>    Steven>     grammarrule('statement : expression')
>    Steven>     versioninfo("Added in 2.4")
>    Steven>     deprecated
>    Steven>     typeinfo(None)
>    Steven> def p_statement_expr(self, p):
>    Steven>     print p[1]
>
>    Nick>  as:
>    Nick>      staticmethod
>    Nick>      grammarrule('statement : expression')
>    Nick>      version("Added in 2.4")
>    Nick>      deprecatedmethod
>    Nick>      type_(None)
>    Nick>  def p_statement_expr(self, p):
>    Nick>      print p[1]
>
>How about
>
>    def p_statement_expr:
>        staticmethod
>        grammarrule('statement : expression')
>        version("Added in 2.4")
>        deprecatedmethod
>        type_(None)
>    decorate (self, p):
>        """docstring here"""
>        print p[1]
>
>Read it something like "define a function named p_statement_expr using a
>bunch of functions to decorate the basic function".
>
>It solves a couple problems:
>
>1. "def" introduces the function definition instead of an arbitrary number
>   of @-expressions.
>
>2. There is no extra indentation of the main body.
>
>3. The name of the function is known early on.
>
>4. "def"/"decorate" pair up visually much the same as "try"/"except" or
>   "if"/"then", though they don't represent alternative blocks of code to be
>   executed.
>
>On the minus side it introduces a vertical separation between the function
>name and parameter list and introduces a new keyword, "decorate".
>
>>From a parsing standpoint I think it will work.  You'll see either a colon
>or a left paren after the function name to distinguish between the two types
>of function definition.  I'm not sure if a token needs to be used to
>separate the various decorator functions or if requiring a newline and
>indentation is sufficient.
>
>Skip
>

Sincerely yours, Roman Suzi
-- 
rnd at onego.ru =\= My AI powered by GNU/Linux RedHat 7.3


From mauriceling at acm.org  Mon Aug  2 22:06:16 2004
From: mauriceling at acm.org (Maurice LING)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 02:06:16 GMT
Subject: Call for Grant Proposals
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1074.1091491856.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <40fcaa90$0$27091$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>	<ToadnWWu8tQIgmDdRVn-uQ@giganews.com>	<p_2dnfCS9O4GRmDdRVn-qQ@powergate.ca>	<41097fed$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>	<e69d3ed2040802004962f99d8a@mail.gmail.com>	<410DF640.4010307@acm.org>	<e69d3ed204080201087beb6bf1@mail.gmail.com>	<410DF824.8070309@acm.org>	<e69d3ed20408020146417cca41@mail.gmail.com>
	<410ED411.7090907@acm.org>
	<mailman.1074.1091491856.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <410ef314$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>

Hi,

At the same time, there are other questions besides an issue with open 
source or close source development.

These 4 questions in my original email are probably more important to 
me, personally...

2. Will there be any form of intellectual property claims, including, 
copyrights, trade marks, patents, on any form of work generated from the 
PSF Grant by the Python Software Foundation (PSF) or any of its 
associates? If so, what are the precise nature of it? This is important 
as it may injure the research work and subsequently, the resultant 
thesis and publications directing towards the award of my degree.

3. On the website (http://www.python.org/psf/call-2004.html), it is 
stated that the project of which the grant is granted for must be 
completed by October 30, 2005. In event of failure to meet, what will be 
the penalities?

4. From Question 3, what constitutes partial failure or complete failure 
of the project?

5. From Question 4, it is stated on the website 
(http://www.python.org/psf/call-2004.html) that a delivery plan is 
essential in the proposal. How will delay in delivery affect the payment 
plan and the grant on the whole?

The answers to these questions are something that the grant committee 
can answer now as it involves internal policy. As for Question 2, I 
cannot be in a project that will take up my time and cannot be directed 
towards the award of my degree.

The next 3 questions deal closely with my lab's financial budgetting and 
without any answers to these questions, I can be in dire straits when 
things doesn't go as planned.

Maurice


Tim Peters wrote:
> [Maurice Ling, wants to know whether PSF grants require funded work to be
>  open-sourced, etc]
> 
> While I'm a PSF Director, I'm not on the Grants Committee and don't
> speak for them.
> 
> I'll just note that since the PSF is a public charity (under US tax
> law), there are a lot of rules the PSF has to comply with when
> distributing its funds.  I expect that answering your questions will
> require paying a lawyer to spell out what's possible.  I don't know
> what they'll say.  In general, the PSF is required to act in the
> public interest.
> 
> That said, the PSF doesn't have a ton of money, and there will almost
> certainly be more worthy requests for funding than there are funds to
> pass out.  Proposals will therefore compete.  If I were on the Grants
> Committee, whether a proposal would benefit the public at large would
> be a major consideration for me.  IOW, I think it's predictable-- and
> appropriate --that proposals to fund open-source work will "score
> points" for that reason alone.


-- 
Maurice Han Tong LING, BSc(Hons)(Biochem), AdvDipComp, SN
Doctor of Philosophy (Science) Candidate, The University of Melbourne
mobile: +61 4 22781753
	+65 96669233
mailing address: Department of Zoology, The University of Melbourne
		 Royal Parade, Parkville, Victoria 3010, Australia
residential address: 9/41 Dover Street
	   	     Flemington, Victoria 3031, Australia
email: mauriceling at acm.org
resume: http://maurice.vodien.com/maurice_resume.pdf
www: http://www.geocities.com/beldin79/

The information contained in this message, including its attachment(s),
is CONFIDENTIAL and solely intended to its addressee(s) only. The
content of this message, including its attachment(s),  may be subjected
to copyright and privacy laws. If you have received this email in error,
please let me know by returning this email, and then destroy all copies.

"I cannot discover anyone knows enough to say definitely what is
and what is not possible" -Henry Ford
"The difference between the impossible and the possible lies
in a person's determination" -Tommy Charles Lasorda


From narshe at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 12:33:54 2004
From: narshe at gmail.com (Josh Close)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:33:54 -0500
Subject: ConfigParser options spanning more than one line
Message-ID: <4a0cafe204081609334d234877@mail.gmail.com>

I'm using ConfigParser and I can't seem to get a config option to span
more than one line.

[MyConfig]
var = blah blah blah\
        blah continued

Putting the '\' doesn't work

Is there a way to do that? Or do I have to deal with having a huge
long string all on one line?

-Josh


From arambo314 at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 16 13:20:06 2004
From: arambo314 at hotmail.com (Arthur Rambo)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 10:20:06 -0700
Subject: Best programming language
References: <mailman.1718.1092639914.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <533e1e03.0408160920.4c26c794@posting.google.com>

Roman Suzi <rnd at onego.ru> wrote in message news:<mailman.1718.1092639914.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> ;-)
> 
> Just type into google
> "best programming language"
> and press (I am lucky)
> 
> 
> Sincerely yours, Roman Suzi

Just type into google
"agile programming language"
and press (I am lucky)

Arthur


From fumanchu at amor.org  Thu Aug 26 13:37:57 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:37:57 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E86@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

> For

Isn't *anyone* going to vote against? Or at least formally abstain?
_Somebody_ out there must disagree strongly with this.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From nobody at nowhere.com  Mon Aug  9 16:13:50 2004
From: nobody at nowhere.com (Fred)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 22:13:50 +0200
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
	<30260531.0408091048.7011855f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <tnmfh0dp629i16hqrqbnnu6r6l73kt2kn6@4ax.com>

On 9 Aug 2004 11:48:34 -0700, simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (simo) wrote:
>> I tried wxDesigner and wxGlade, but neither lets me move the widgets
>> around. 
>
>Dunno what you're smoking there man!

OK, I figured it out. Note to newbies: Read up on wxWidgets before
using those two tools, at least its concept of "sizers"...

>Qt Designer (for use with PyQt though) or just hand-code the layout,
>it ain't that hard.....

Thx but... not thx. That reminds me too much of the Petzold-era
Windows in C :-)

Cheers
Fred.


From jepler at unpythonic.net  Sun Aug 15 10:28:04 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 09:28:04 -0500
Subject: Numarray: Using sum() within functions
In-Reply-To: <10hsvoka533ci3c@corp.supernews.com>
References: <10hsvoka533ci3c@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <20040815142804.GA25402@unpythonic.net>

On Sat, Aug 14, 2004 at 02:07:30PM -0700, Jim Cser wrote:
> Instead, I'm trying to do something like--
> def f3(x,y,z):
>    for t in range(numT):
>      tempval = f1(x,y,z,t) * f2(y,z,t)
> 
>    outval = sum(tempval,axis = 3)
>    return outval

Here, "tempval" takes on a series of values during the for loop, then
"sum" is used on value from the final iteration of the loop.

Perhaps you want something like
    def f3(x, y, z):
        temps = []
        for t in range(numT):
            temps.append(f1(...) * f(...))
        return sum(temps, axis=3)

Jeff
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From tzot at sil-tec.gr  Sat Aug 21 15:35:55 2004
From: tzot at sil-tec.gr (Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 22:35:55 +0300
Subject: Interesting
References: <412762fb@news01.argolink.net>
Message-ID: <k09fi05p1j84od79f96fej3mah6h8hnjv6@4ax.com>

On 21 Aug 2004 09:58:03 -0500, rumours say that Baykara Mullins
<Baykara43 at noroozbasket.com> might have written:

>Interesting newsgroup!

Modest remark!
-- 
TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best,
"Tssss!" --Brad Pitt as Achilles in unprecedented Ancient Greek


From strawman at NOSPAM-DELETE-THIS.astraw.com  Tue Aug 10 22:57:45 2004
From: strawman at NOSPAM-DELETE-THIS.astraw.com (Andrew Straw)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 19:57:45 -0700
Subject: floating point exception (SIGFPE weirdness)
In-Reply-To: <cfbkmf$hpq$1@naig.caltech.edu>
References: <cfbkmf$hpq$1@naig.caltech.edu>
Message-ID: <41198B29.7090600@NOSPAM-DELETE-THIS.astraw.com>

I figured out that the culprit is in the numarray.ieeespecial module, 
which my Python code imports.

The lines (taken from ieeespecial.py)

import numarray.numarrayall as _na
plus_inf = inf = _na.array(1.0)/_na.array(0.0)

are sufficient to cause the behavior in my original post.  I shall 
follow this up on the numpy discussion list.

Andrew Straw wrote:
> I'm running into trouble when calling a 3rd party library (the Intel IPP 
> library to do some fast math on a P4 processor).  This is on debian 
> linux 2.6.7 using python 2.3.4.
> 
> I've been using Pyrex to wrap my calls to this C library into an 
> extension module, and a certain function call within my extension module 
> (to the C function ippiAddWeighted_8u32f_C1IR) will terminate my Python 
> program when called for the 2nd time, with the line "Floating point 
> exception" mysteriously appearing on the console.  (Mysterious in part 
> because I can't redirect these words with piping stdout or stderr.)  I 
> should note that this function calls not only the normal Pentium 
> floating-point machinery, but should also call the SSE and SSE2 
> instruction sets.
> 
> A few clues:
> 
> 1) A trivial C program which makes the same function call repeatedly 
> with the same data is not terminated.
> 
> 2) Running the python executable under gdb causes the program to 
> continue running without terminating.
> 
> 3) The behavior (termination) is not changed after rebuilding Python 
> from source, compiling with --with-fpectl and building the fpectl 
> module, calling fpectl.turnoff_sigfpe().
> 
> I don't really understand what is happening, but I'd like my code to run 
> without terminating due to this floating point exception. My best guess 
> is that SIGFPE is being generated by the C function call, and Python 
> does not catch it so the OS terminates Python.  If this is so, however, 
> I'm not sure why Python should be terminated and why my simple C program 
> is not.  Furthermore, I don't understand why gdb doesn't see SIGFPE if 
> this is the case.
> 
> I would be very grateful if someone could tell me how to keep my program 
> running!
> 
> Cheers!
> Andrew


From dave at pythonapocrypha.com  Wed Aug 25 10:06:44 2004
From: dave at pythonapocrypha.com (Dave Brueck)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:06:44 -0600
Subject: is this thread safe?
In-Reply-To: <090f01c489c2$3beb3eb0$7f00a8c0@scl01.siliconcreation.com>
References: <090f01c489c2$3beb3eb0$7f00a8c0@scl01.siliconcreation.com>
Message-ID: <412C9CF4.10600@pythonapocrypha.com>

Joe Wong wrote:
> I have a variable that need to be incremented by 1 as follow:
>  
> v += 1
>  
> Is this threadsafe? Do I need to put a lock around this?

No[1], yes[2].

-Dave

[1] A context switch could happen between adding and saving the value:

>>> import dis
>>> def inc():
...   global v
...   v += 1
...
>>> dis.dis(inc)
  3           0 LOAD_GLOBAL              0 (v)
              3 LOAD_CONST               1 (1)
              6 INPLACE_ADD
              7 STORE_GLOBAL             0 (v)
             10 LOAD_CONST               0 (None)
             13 RETURN_VALUE

[2] Without locking, you get incorrect results:

import threading, time

ADD_COUNT = 1000000
THREAD_COUNT = 3
v = 0

def Worker():
    global v
    for i in xrange(ADD_COUNT):
        v += 1

threads = []
for i in range(THREAD_COUNT):
    t = threading.Thread(target=Worker)
    threads.append(t)
    t.start()

for thread in threads:
    thread.join()

assert v == ADD_COUNT * THREAD_COUNT, v



From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Tue Aug 31 18:23:13 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 01 Sep 2004 00:23:13 +0200
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>
	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>
	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<eppstein-55AD8F.13583829082004@news.service.uci.edu>
	<cgtsbi$7en$2@sea.gmane.org> <20040830024246.GA2159@unpythonic.net>
	<mailman.2663.1093956465.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040901i57l@bombur.uio.no>

Paul Morrow wrote:
>Jeff Epler wrote:
>> In your proposed model, what does the following code do?
>>     def f():
>>         __var__ = 3
>>         return __var__
>>     f.__var__ += 1
>>     print f()
>> 
> 
> Only assignments to __xxx__ variables at the very start of a function 
> def would have this special semantics.  So your return statement would 
> be referencing a name (__var__) that doesn't exist in the function's 
> local variable namespace.

No, that would silently return a surprising result if __var__ existed in
the global namespace.  Better make it a syntax error or something.

-- 
Hallvard


From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 08:35:23 2004
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 05:35:23 -0700
Subject: Python and C, looking for a C IDE
References: <6f402501.0408240353.2a5b8a84@posting.google.com>
	<0h1ni0hjqggrk2atp7ao31a6l1dn2ctobk@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <6f402501.0408250435.348fd3a5@posting.google.com>

Fred <nobody at nowhere.com> wrote in message news:<0h1ni0hjqggrk2atp7ao31a6l1dn2ctobk at 4ax.com>...
> On 24 Aug 2004 04:53:13 -0700, fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
> wrote:
> >I'm looking to learn C to move some 'speed sensitive' code from C to
> >python. I'm partly doign this as an exercise to learn a static
> >language to help broaden my programming skills - so please don't jump
> >on the bandwagon and tell me I'd be better placed to put my efforts
> >into optimising my python code !!
> 
> ... or you could take a look at writing this speed-sensitive part in
> PowerBasic. The speed and size of C, without the hassles :-)
> 
> http://www.powerbasic.com/products/pbdll32/
> 
> I haven't yet looked at how to compile a DLL in PowerBasic and call it
> from Python, but it's on my to-do list.
> Fred.

Hmm... commercial, non cross platform... not for me - sorry.
I'd quite like to learn C anyway. Probably tackle lisp after that -
which is also (generally) a lot faster than python....

Regards,

Fuzzball

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 31 07:04:14 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:04:14 +0200
Subject: Generator expressions v/s list comprehensions
References: <mahesh-525B07.12195528082004@individual.net>
	<1gj8y77.6qshr41q531veN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<mahesh-7E265C.14093428082004@individual.net>
	<87llfywooz.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<mahesh-F76AD6.17094429082004@individual.net>
	<1gjbs1e.assxlxlud1m0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-EA86FE.19582930082004@localhost>
Message-ID: <1gjdvx3.tjc3nb1266bpkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Michael J. Fromberger <Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU>
wrote:
   ...
> > Unfortunately, this wish is totally unrealistic -- obviously people do
> > come up with cool ideas such as the iterator protocol, and generators,
> > after the language has been around for a while.  
> 
> All the cool features Python has adopted existed a long time before they
> made their way into Python itself.

Almost all, not all.  As I repeatedly explained, for example, generator
comprehensions are not quite like anything in other languages (though
you can surely find _similarities_, of course).


> Frankly, I think if the Lisp world had managed to build the same 
> friendly and welcoming community Python seems to have, it would have 
> taken over the world a quarter-century ago.

I think most people's reaction to (==against) Lisp's parentheses and
prefix syntax is more intense than that to Python's significant
whitespace, which appears quite natural to most non-programmers even
though many programmers inured to block delimiters do react strongly
against it.  It's hard enough for Python to keep its community welcoming
and friendly when you hear some clueless dweeb rant against indendation
for the thousandth time, I think the Lisp community would have had to be
made up of saints to be still friendly and welcoming after a _million_
newcomers raised their whining against parentheses.


Alex


From cappy2112 at yahoo.com  Thu Aug  5 20:51:18 2004
From: cappy2112 at yahoo.com (Tony C)
Date: 5 Aug 2004 17:51:18 -0700
Subject: Decorator syntax
References: <mailman.1173.1091670172.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <8d3e714e.0408051651.7c91a5c4@posting.google.com>

> This is backwards compatible (Python <= 2.3 raise
> SyntaxError), and looks much nicer than @.

"Almost" anything looks better than the @ syntax.
If @ gets implemented, there goes the whole easily-readable plug for
Python.
We might as all go learn Perl.

While everyone is fussing around on the syntax of decorators, I think
they should change the name as well (although I don't have a
reasonable alternative yet). Decorator is the least program-like term
I've ever heard of. :)


From josh at chatgris.com  Tue Aug  3 22:08:36 2004
From: josh at chatgris.com (Joshua Moore-Oliva)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 22:08:36 -0400
Subject: asyncore, asynchat and threads
In-Reply-To: <7cKdnShvevY_3Y3cRVn-iA@powergate.ca>
References: <mailman.1108.1091583968.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7cKdnShvevY_3Y3cRVn-iA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <200408032208.36821.josh@chatgris.com>


> The usual approach is to use something along the lines of a separate
> thread for the *work* rather than for the connection, or maybe a
> thread pool, and communicate with those threads from the asynchat
> thingies using Queue.Queues...
> 
> I'm not sure we have enough information about what you really need
> to say more.  You've given lots of info about what you "would love
> to do" but not enough about what you actually need to do. <wink>
> 
> -Peter

Ok, I will give more info, and also, you touched on a subject that I thought was impossible for my problem domain, but here goes.

I have a very simple protocol setup as follows..  basically it is a method for retrieving data, however I must route data through a central
connection to avoid database locking.

A simplified version of my transaction looks like so..
 '>' means data from the client, '<' means data from the server
> BATCH_GET
< 1

Right after the BATCH_GET I wait on a Queue object for data to send to the remote client.  
Depending on whether there is data available for this specific connection, this call could never return, but other connections
could also be requesting data, and there could be data available to them.

I currently do have a separate thread doing all the work, and it puts each threads data into a separate queue.

The problem that I ran into with using a direct asyncore//asynchat interface is this... (hoping there is a way to work around it)

consider the very likely possiblity that asynchat retrieves the line BATCH_GET, but there is no data to return.

I have to not return any data until there is data to return for that specific connection.  If there is some way to send data down a asynchat
socket from another thread (thread-safely), or to somehow wake up an asynchat class, that would be great.

The problem is that once BATCH_GET is received, unless i handle it there and then, no more events will be generated as the remote client will
be waiting for a response.  

Hopefully this sufficiently answers your 'what I actually *need* to do' question ;)

I don't want to flood the email with a lot of irrelevant info, so if you would like more infomation, ask away, but I think this covers the problem sufficiently...

Joshua Moore-Oliva



From wweston at att.net  Wed Aug 11 11:57:44 2004
From: wweston at att.net (wes weston)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:57:44 GMT
Subject: Print command
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1511.1092239223.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1511.1092239223.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <YlrSc.429065$Gx4.261302@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>

Yong Wang wrote:
> Hi, All:
>   For unknow reasons, I often get compiler error in the print
> statements. For example: I have following codes:
> 
> if len(currentFiberCode) > 0 :
>                 print string.ljust(expandFiberCode(currentFiberCode,buildingRoom),30), \
>                     string.rjust(`currentTotal`,6), \
>                     string.rjust(`currentAvailable`,11), \
>                     string.rjust(`sm_ava`,7), \
>                     string.rjust(`mm_ava`,6), \
>                     string.rjust(`sm_used`,9), \
>                     string.rjust(`mm_used`,9)
>             else:
>                 print 'data exist in fiber database table'
> 
> When I comiped all the codes, I got :
> Compiling ./NetDBfiber.py ...
>   File "./NetDBfiber.py", line 1086
>     string.rjust(`currentTotal`,6), \
>                                       ^
> SyntaxError: invalid token
> 
> 
> How can I fix the problems ?
>    Thanks a lot.
> 
>     Yong
> 

Yong,
    Is there a trailing space after the \  ? Looks like it.
wes



From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Fri Aug  6 13:09:32 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:09:32 -0700
Subject: @decorators
References: <d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa@posting.google.com>
	<1091800879.399791@news.commspeed.net>
	<WZMQc.2054$va2.1917@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <1091812567.782496@news.commspeed.net>


"Paul McGuire" <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> wrote in message
news:WZMQc.2054$va2.1917 at fe1.texas.rr.com...
> "Tom B." <sbabbitt at commspeed.net> wrote in message
> news:1091800879.399791 at news.commspeed.net...
> >
> > "daishi" <google at daishi.fastmail.fm> wrote in message
> > news:d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa at posting.google.com...
> > > For what it's worth:
> > >
> > > As far as I know, the proposed @decorator syntax will be the first
> > > time that two logical lines of python with the same indentation will
> > > not be independent of one another. Previously, when looking at:
> > >
> >
> > I think the @decorator syntax was invented by Microsoft to sabotage
> Python,
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
>
> Heeey, let's keep it civil!!!
>
Your right, I apologize, @decorator syntax will affect me with much less
adversity than Microsoft.

Tom




From jbperez808 at wahoo.com  Wed Aug 18 12:12:31 2004
From: jbperez808 at wahoo.com (Jon Perez)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 00:12:31 +0800
Subject: favorite python web development tool?
In-Reply-To: <10i4nttktcvltdd@corp.supernews.com>
References: <10i4nttktcvltdd@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <2ohd02Fari42U1@uni-berlin.de>

mike wrote:

> hi all -
> 
> 
> i'm fairly new to python, coming from a java servlet / velocity template 
> background.  i'm looking for a good python web development tool, and 
> hope to find some suggestions here.
> 
> given my background, webware+cheetah feels comfortingly familiar, and 
> i'm leaning toward it.  before i dive in, though, i'm wondering what you 
> experienced users think about it, compared to the other tools that are 
> out there.  eg, does the python environment have strengths that are 
> better exploited with something other than a servlet-like model?

For those coming from a PHP/ASP/JSP background, Spyce will be the
most readily familiar and it rocks for those who use this approach.

I've never had a use for a templating solution but Spyce
is also supposed to support Cheetah well.


From Jared.Cohen at noaa.gov  Thu Aug 19 15:35:54 2004
From: Jared.Cohen at noaa.gov (Jared Cohen)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:35:54 -0400
Subject: Please help -- Tkinter Scale widget with DoubleVar is acting
 weird
Message-ID: <4125011A.10505@noaa.gov>

Can anyone help me with this please?
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From roy at panix.com  Mon Aug  9 09:16:28 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 09:16:28 -0400
Subject: Exceptions as a Control Structure
References: <411775aa$0$17867$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <roy-D4B2EE.09162809082004@reader1.panix.com>

In article <411775aa$0$17867$626a14ce at news.free.fr>,
 Olivier Parisy <olivier.parisy at free.fr> wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> I am new to Python (I just finished Guido's tutorial).
> I was very surprised to learn there that the StopIteration
> is used to end for loops in a standard iterator setting.
> 
> I come from C++, where the use of exceptions as control
> structures is frowned upon for efficiency reasons.
> 
> What is the Python canon on this topic ? Are exceptions
> considered as reasonable control structures, or is
> StopIteration alone of its kind ?

Lots of things you do in C++ are frowned upon in Python.  Lots of things 
you do in Python are frowned upon in C++.

Specifically, exceptions in C++ are generally considered fairly 
heavy-weight, but not so in Python.  Here's another common python idiom 
that uses exceptions in a way which would probably horrify most C++ 
people:

for key in sequence:
   try:
      foo = dictionary [key]
   except KeyError
      foo = "not found"

instead of:

for key in sequence:
   if dictionary.has_key (key):
      foo = dictionary [key]
   else
      foo = "not found"

If you're reasonably sure that most of the keys will be found in the 
dictionary, it's probably faster to just try them all and handle the 
occasional exception than to test each key to see if it exists.


From David.Vaughan at Gifford.UK.com  Fri Aug 20 11:13:32 2004
From: David.Vaughan at Gifford.UK.com (David Vaughan)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:13:32 +0100
Subject: Decorator keyword options - brainstorming
Message-ID: <C59AEFCA2D33284B8EE3C0A8C8C9004A108470@kiwi>


Paul McGuire wrote:
> I'd say that something like "gerbil" should be right out! 

I don't know - it sounds fun.  I vote:

SpanishInquisition:
    staticmethod
def foo():
    pass

The guys at python-dev won't be expecting that one :)
But seriously, there must be something literally pythonic we could
propose.

David Vaughan


From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug 30 18:35:42 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 22:35:42 GMT
Subject: "Content-Length" header
References: <ch07ui$edo@odbk17.prod.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408310007040.1162-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <4133abbe$0$65600$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-30, Peter Kleiweg <in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid> wrote:
> Justin schreef:
>
>> I found the answer.  After about 3 hours of agonizing over it
>> it turned out to be CASE some webservers are CASE SENSITVE
>> about their urls and some are not.
>
> There are case-insensitive webservers?

Sure. Most are.  AFAIK, apache on Unix has always been case
sensitve.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  -- I love KATRINKA
                                  at               because she drives a
                               visi.com            PONTIAC. We're going
                                                   awaynow. I fed the cat.


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 30 03:05:12 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:05:12 +0200
Subject: Testing automatically on import
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<tyf3c28ps1t.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
	<1ry8k0d2az.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<10iv0kid2ig9ka6@corp.supernews.com>
	<1rpt5ccbso.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<10ivpk9inpnh65@corp.supernews.com>
	<1rd61bd26k.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<1gj892g.1hlc8ar1po78b6N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<pan.2004.08.28.16.30.10.125568@jerf.org>
Message-ID: <1gja5sf.vbe56knfvu9sN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Jeremy Bowers <jerf at jerf.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:15:24 +0200, Alex Martelli wrote:
> 
> > Hmmm -- I'm thinking that the existing import hooks might be enough to
> > let one prototype this "automatic checking" functionality, not quite as
> > smoothly as a fully architected system maybe, but enough to get some
> > early adopters, shake out teething problems, build a constituency to
> > lobby for smoother integration in a future Python version...
> 
> You know, I'm totally unexcited about the syntax stuff this thread is
> putatively about, 

Hmmm, yeah, it DID start out about braces, didn't it?-)

> but running automated testing over newly imported stuff
> sounds kind of useful, not just for development but deployment as well;
> "forcing" the users to run the tests once and report problems could be
> very useful in some contexts. 

I agree with you entirely.


> I already tend to name my unit tests for file "x.py" as "tests/xTest.py"...

I tend to use tests/test_x.py, myself, but here we're back to discussing
syntax sugar again;-).

> 
> Maybe something that looks for a __validate__ function taking no args in a
> module and runs it if the code was imported and newly compiled, combined
> with a few convenience functions for the common cases?
> 
> I'm not *quite* familiar with the import hook stuff to knock this off
> right away. I tried prototyping it but got stuck on how to determine if a
> Python file already has an up-to-date .pyc file. (Although I guess there
> may be external dependencies... well in the interest of keeping it simple,
> deal with that later.)

Hmmm, I could be wrong, but I think you have to check timestamps and
'magic' signatures yourself.  Pity, because imp.load_module must also do
that, but I don't think it makes this logic available separately.
Still, I believe Demo/imputil/importers.py has all the code you need.


Alex


From agriff at tin.it  Tue Aug 24 09:15:05 2004
From: agriff at tin.it (Andrea Griffini)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:15:05 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <20040819231139.D039A1E4003@bag.python.org>
	<mailman.1999.1092969866.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<eyqWc.223375$j62.10948731@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<qVAWc.2328$MR2.9560@news1.mts.net>
Message-ID: <njemi0hrm3jb1kdc8mhg8krd9a4qu3e894@4ax.com>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 01:07:01 -0500, Reid Nichol
<rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com> wrote:

>Perhaps it's just 
>where I went to school though or where I hang out, but it can't all be 
>coincidence.

IMO it's no coincidence. I think that *most* professional
programmers are not regular readers of usenet newsgroups
about the languages they use... not only that... IMO in
the bigger part they don't actually know what usenet
newsgroups are. And most didn't even read any book on the
languages and tools they use unless that happened when
they were still at school.

I decided that for myself I'll always cut out enough time
to keep studying. But many just go forever with what they
learned when they were forced to because of an exam.

I've personally lived totally absurd situations where
experienced programmers were just spending a lot of time
and energy (and were making a lot of mistakes) because
they never heard about make tools. I'm NOT kidding.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe... ;-)
MS Word macros taking ages and requiring superservers
(yes... they were installing office purposely to
superservers so that MS word could use that RAM to be
able to load the file to convert) to do data conversions
that someone knowing perl wouldn't even save the script
for (but would just invoke perl with "-e").

This is no joke. I was consulted for help when the word
macro stopped working complaining first about being unable
to "undo" changes and then crashing ms word anyway after.


Looks like keeping studying, observing and "learning" is
considered "out" by many of my collegues.

Andrea


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Fri Aug  6 16:50:26 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:50:26 -0500
Subject: py2exe and pyOpenGL
References: <defcda14.0408060942.21cea29f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <r-Gdna8yWKeMco7cRVn-uA@comcast.com>

Just guessing: py2exe moves everything
into local directory (or .zip file in
latest version) which would modify the
sys.path to only look there.  I think
you will need to modify the system path
so it can find OpenGL directory.

HTH,
Larry Bats
Syscon, Inc.

"julia" <juliagoolia at eml.cc> wrote in message
news:defcda14.0408060942.21cea29f at posting.google.com...
> Hi,
>
> I'm having trouble turning a python program with pyOpenGL into an exe
> with py2exe.  I was wondering if you could help.
>
> Basically I have a setup.py like this:
>
> # setup.py
> from distutils.core import setup
> import py2exe
> setup(console=["gltest.py"])
> # end setup.py
>
> (Note that my program gltest.py works just fine)
>
> And when I do:
>
> python setup.py py2exe --excludes=OpenGL
>
> There is an error message that says:
>
> The following modules appear to be missing
> ['OpenGL.GL', 'OpenGL.GLUT', 'dotblas', etc....
>
> But I figured this was OK because of the excludes.  So then I put the
> OpenGL dir into the dist directory and when I try to run the exe I get
> an ImportError:
>
> No module named OpenGL.GL
>
> Any idea where I'm going wrong?
>
> Thanks so much for your time,
> Julia




From timrueAT at mindspringDOT.com  Sat Aug 21 13:26:19 2004
From: timrueAT at mindspringDOT.com (threeseas)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 17:26:19 GMT
Subject: autocoding and the new MS book regarding software factories
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1719.1092639915.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1719.1092639915.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <%ALVc.29611$9Y6.14576@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>

Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy) wrote:
> Hey all! It's time for the semi-regular Tim Rue sighting! With a new
> email address to beat the killfiles (or more likely these days,
> spambayes).
> 
> Where's that 'Delete As Spam' button gone ...?
> 
> Tim Delaney

I realize it is beyond your comprehension, but nothing stays the same. 
Hardware changes, software changes, including OSs used, etc..

Why would I want to beat kill files?

Fact is, I'd prefer all those who do not like me to use kill files for 
it would allow others to be better able to make their own determinations.

Of course given the fact things change and this doesn't help with kill 
files, that only leaves the one thing many don't seem to have control 
over. Their own ability to apply the choice of their dislikes without 
trying to create some automated system to do it for them.

In other words, nobody is forcing you to read my posts. And in fact I 
have had those who claim to have kill filed me but continue to respond 
to my posts in effort to get others to follow them.

Is there python code to my project? YES

does it work? Yes...

programming language require some degree or depth of teh application of 
logic in order to use. But people, unlike a computer, are not forced to 
have any sort of foundation in logic.

As your posts provides an example of.


From ksokol at schipul.com  Wed Aug 18 12:40:09 2004
From: ksokol at schipul.com (Kathryn)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 09:40:09 -0700
Subject: ImportError...pdo and adodbapi
References: <61cc2a0a.0407300932.7e97bbf2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <61cc2a0a.0408180840.49f2480c@posting.google.com>

ksokol at schipul.com (Kathryn) wrote in message news:<61cc2a0a.0407300932.7e97bbf2 at posting.google.com>...
> Hey folks,
> I read this board every day and now I need some help.  
> 
> I have a script that imports pdo and adodbapi...I have multiple
> sys.path.appends to define the relevant paths on my local machine and
> a server.
> ex:
> 
> import sys
> #local
> sys.path.append('C:\Python\adodbapi')
> sys.path.append('C:\Python\pdo')
> #server
> sys.path.append('D:\Python\adodbapi')
> sys.path.append('D:\Python\pdo')
> 
> import pdo
> import adodbapi
> 
> 
> This setup works fine on the server, as well as my old local machine. 
> Just switched local machines, reinstalled Python, still works fine on
> the server (as it should), but errors out when I run on my local
> machine.  Keep in mind the directory structure has not changed.
> 
> Here's the error:
> ImportError: No module named pdo
> ImportError: No module named adodbapi
> 
> Now, if I manually run the setup files for pdo and adodbapi, then run
> my script, it works like a gem.
> 
> Any insight?  What am I missing?
> 
> Thanks,
> Kathryn




....As it turns out:
> sys.path.append('C:/Python/adodbapi')
> sys.path.append('C:/Python/pdo')
> #server
> sys.path.append('D:/Python/adodbapi')
> sys.path.append('D:/Python/pdo')
(change of / direction) works just fine.  Who knows.  :)


From anthony at interlink.com.au  Thu Aug  5 09:10:32 2004
From: anthony at interlink.com.au (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 23:10:32 +1000
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
Message-ID: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On behalf of the Python development team and the Python community, I'm
happy to announce the second alpha of Python 2.4.

Python 2.4a2 is an alpha release. We'd greatly appreciate it if you
could download it, kick the tires and let us know of any problems you
find, but it is not suitable for production usage.

~    http://www.python.org/2.4

In this release we have new syntax for function decorators, a fix for
failing imports so that they don't leave a broken module in sys.modules,
a host of updated modules in the standard library (including optparse
and doctest) and a large number of other bug fixes and improvements.
See either the highlights, the What's New in Python 2.4, or the detailed
NEWS file -- all available from the Python 2.4 webpage.

There will probably be one more alpha in a few weeks before the first
beta a few weeks after that.

Please log any problems you have with this release in the SourceForge
bug tracker (noting that you're using 2.4a2):

~    http://sourceforge.net/bugs/?group_id=5470

Enjoy the new release,
Anthony

Anthony Baxter
anthony at python.org
Python Release Manager
(on behalf of the entire python-dev team)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFBEjHFDt3F8mpFyBYRAhgXAKCful63a7kAUcHnxFzCZSzq0bmZ7QCfZIqy
t/PqaaLcdRL6IVUKPAWiytA=
=pQNU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Sat Aug 28 00:38:14 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:38:14 +1000
Subject: cookie
In-Reply-To: <87fz68v1uj.fsf@pobox.com>
References: <mailman.2410.1093515779.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<oekxem1a.fsf@pobox.com>
	<mailman.2485.1093569409.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<87fz68v1uj.fsf@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <1093667894.41300c36c1f62@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>


Quoting "John J. Lee" <jjl at pobox.com>:

> Ajay <abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au> writes:
> > Quoting "John J. Lee" <jjl at pobox.com>:
> > > Ajay <abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au> writes:
> [...]
> > > > i am printing a simple cookie, but instead of printing
> > > > um=name:blah&access:admin&exp:2312390.909
> > > >
> > > > its printing
> > > > um="name:blah&access:admin&exp:2312390.909"
> > > >
> > > > why the quotes?
> > >
> > > Why not?
> > >
> > > I don't see how they'd cause any harm.
> > >
> > they dont cause any harm, except for a an extra statement removing
> those
> > quotes when i read the cookie, parse it and authenticate the session.
> > the question is - is that normal cookie behaviour?
> > cookie["test"]="blah"
> > print cookie
> >
> > prints test=blah and not test="blah"
> > so why the quotes when i do the same thing, but use a variable instead
> of a
> > string literal?
>
> You've lost me, but on the basis of a very quick test, the Cookie
> module preserves quotes across the parse->output cycle:
>
> >>> import Cookie
> >>> c = Cookie.SimpleCookie()
> >>> c.load('foo=bar')
> >>> print c
> Set-Cookie: foo=bar;
> >>> c.load('foo="bar"')
> >>> print c
> Set-Cookie: foo="bar";
> >>>
>
> That seems sensible behaviour to me, since quotes around cookie values
> are significant for Netscape cookies (ie. regular, vanilla, internet
> cookies).
>
> I can categorically state that using a variable name instead of a
> string literal will make no difference whatsoever.

i believe you. i didn't think it would make a difference. and i agree that
the Cookie module preserves quotes across the parse->output cycle
my question is
>>> import Cookie
>>> c = Cookie.SimpleCookie()
>>> c["test"]= "blah"
>>> print c
Set-Cookie: test=blah;
>>> c["test"] = "blah" + "testing"
>>> print c
Set-Cookie: test=blahtesting;
>>> str = "testing blah"
>>> c["test"] = str
>>> print c
Set-Cookie: test="testing blah";

why does the final print statement have the quotes. Note i haven't put
str='"testing blah"'. if i had done that i would understand the quotes
there.

>I think you're
> actually confused about Python syntax rather than the workings of the
> Cookie module.  Try reading the Python language tutorial at
> www.python.org.
>
yes i should probably read that :)
it doesn't though mention anything about the above behaviour

cheers

>
> John
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From raims at dot.com  Sun Aug  1 18:18:29 2004
From: raims at dot.com (Lawrence Oluyede)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 00:18:29 +0200
Subject: Default encoding
References: <cejpva$f5g$03$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <6skrrm2c0bf0.d84dubnajxgj.dlg@40tude.net>

In data Mon, 02 Aug 2004 00:14:01 +0200, Florian Lindner ha scritto:

> how can I get the default encoding of a python installation?

import sys
sys.getdefaultencoding()

-- 
Lawrence (l dot oluyede at virgilio dot it)
"In IE we trust"


From jimmy at retzlaff.com  Mon Aug  9 08:43:54 2004
From: jimmy at retzlaff.com (Jimmy Retzlaff)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 05:43:54 -0700
Subject: python and win32 dlls
Message-ID: <A7B5C22F20EE3C4E95744E2F03F1887F21C7E5@MAYOR.retzlaff.com>

fgrillo64 wrote:
> i need help from the comunity ; i wrote under Windows2000 os a dll
> having several symbols exported .
> Now i would like to call these symbols from a python program .
> Can anyone tell me how from a python module is possible to call 
> the dll exported symbols ?

http://starship.python.net/crew/theller/ctypes/

Jimmy



From noone at here.com  Wed Aug 25 09:06:32 2004
From: noone at here.com (M. Clift)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:06:32 +0100
Subject: Just a quick one
Message-ID: <cgi2qq$rvp$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>

Hi,

Just a quick one. I'm trying to call [Bob','One'] with this, but I keep
getting 'unhashable'. I've tried various ' " and [ and can't get the thing
to work. Any offers?

Thanks,

M

<code>

from random import *

Name_Number = xrange(int(raw_input("Choose number of Names (1-20)? ")))

state = [None,None]

nextName = {['Bob','One']:['Rita','Sue'],\
              'Rita':['Mary','Sue',['Bob','One']],\
              'Sue':['Rita','Mary',['Bob','One']],\
              'Mary':['Sue','Rita']}

Name_List = []

tmp = choice((['Bob','One'],'Rita','Sue','Mary'))

for x in Name_Number:
    print state
    while tmp in state[0:2]:
        tmp = choice(nextName[Name_List[-1]])
    print tmp, ", ",
    print
    print "Name ",x+1," is ", tmp
    Name_List.append(tmp)
    state[x%2] = tmp

    print Name_List

<code>




From kent at pondview.mv.com  Thu Aug 26 16:47:20 2004
From: kent at pondview.mv.com (Kent Johnson)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 13:47:20 -0700
Subject: How to generically transform a list?
References: <opsdcguchn35jo5o@news.gmane.org>
	<mailman.2433.1093532419.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <f8004470.0408261247.139ce3ed@posting.google.com>

Your second method can easily be rewritten using list comprehensions:
>>> the_list = [['a',1,11,'aa'], ['b',2,22,'bb'],['c',3,33,'cc']]
>>> returnList = [2,1]
>>> new_list = [ [row[i] for i in returnList] for row in the_list ]
>>> new_list
[[11, 1], [22, 2], [33, 3]]

Kent


From m.boeren at guidance.nl  Wed Aug 11 08:31:54 2004
From: m.boeren at guidance.nl (Marc Boeren)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:31:54 +0200
Subject: Getting the docstring of a property
Message-ID: <0C77C7530EA52A4EBD1C47C80D1D291E07F9D8@sbs.GuidanceBV.local>


> How do you get the docstring of a property? Suppose I have 
> the following:
> 
> class Foo:
>     def _prop_get(self):
>         return 1
>     prop = property(_prop_get, doc="This is the docstring")

If I try that in the interactive interpreter, and then do help (I love
help :)

>>> help(Foo)
Help on class Foo in module __main__:

class Foo
 |  Properties defined here:
 |
 |  prop
 |      This is the docstring
 |
 |      <get> = _prop_get(self)

This means I can get at the docstring somehow, as help obviously can
(and as I would have expected :-)

The thing is: foo.prop is an integer, and you don't want the docstring
of an integer, but of a property. This means that you need to look at
the class-level docstring for prop, and not the instance-level
docstring. Translated: try Foo.prop.
>From the prompt:

>>> Foo.prop.__doc__
'This is the docstring'

or, if you only have the instance at hand and don't know the class yet:

>>> foo.__class__.prop.__doc__
'This is the docstring'

HTH, Mc!


From primz at bigpond.com  Sun Aug 22 15:37:52 2004
From: primz at bigpond.com (Nick)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 19:37:52 GMT
Subject: Debunking Art - fraudster with python AI engine?
Message-ID: <4128f60b$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>

Hi,

I recently went to an art exhibition, and one of the artists had an AI
engine projected onto a screen with a keyboard for visitors to type
questions in with.

Curiously, I asked the artist if he had written the engine. He claimed
to have, but as far as I know, he has done no AI study, and only
started programming python some months ago.

Naturally, I find it hard to believe he has picked up on natural
language processing and the other various skills required to write AI
engines in that time. My guess is he has a python AIML interpreter,
and he's found a default "brain" somewhere and tweaked it with some of
his own stuff in order to pass it off as his own.

The engine could answer all the usual questions, like "what is the
meaning of life" (42), "what is your name", "how old are you" etc etc.
It was just a chatterbot, so ELIZA or a deriviative is marked off the
list. I am guessing probably an ALICE engine is behind it all. Does
anyone know any questions or commands one can issue the bot which
might identify it? It required all questions to start with a capital
letter, if thats any help.

Cheers,

Nick.

[ comp.ai is moderated.  To submit, just post and be patient, or if ]
[ that fails mail your article to <comp-ai at moderators.isc.org>, and ]
[ ask your news administrator to fix the problems with your system. ]


From fakeaddress at nowhere.org  Thu Aug 12 01:22:21 2004
From: fakeaddress at nowhere.org (Bryan Olson)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 05:22:21 GMT
Subject: rsa implementation question
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1546.1092276654.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <1092200894.4119a9beb1978@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>	<mailman.1517.1092244848.5135.python-list@python.org>	<1a517b5.0408111636.200f675f@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1546.1092276654.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <h8DSc.2956$QJ3.1109@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>


Hi Heiko. I didn't mean any offense by "I agree with about half
of Heiko Wundram's response."  This is what I do for a living,
so I tend to sweat details and push points.


Heiko Wundram wrote:
 > Am Donnerstag, 12. August 2004 02:36 schrieb Bryan Olson:
 >
 >>There is a notion of blocks in many public-key ciphers,
 >>including RSA.  The modulus n in RSA is composite, not prime.
 >>The "only the notion" statement implies that integer modular
 >>arithmetic is the only base for public-key cryptography, which
 >>is not true.
 >
 > Pardon me, yeah, the modulus is composite, I should've rather said 
that most
 > public key ciphers work in Z{n}. And I know that it's pretty easy to
 > generalize ElGamal to work in other rings than Z, or take bucket 
public key
 > cryptography for example.

I don't know what "bucket public key" cryptography is.  Google
finds no matches.

Incidentally, ElGamal generalizes to groups; they don't have to be
rings. (Generalizes in the sense that it can verify what it
signs and decrypt what it encrypts; it's insecure in many
groups/rings).

 > I know of others, but: have you ever seen an implementation or use 
case of
 > some algorithm not working in Z{n}(*)? I have not, at least not when 
working
 > with computers.

Sure.  I worked for several years for Certicom, the leader in
elliptic-curve cryptography (ECC).  ECC is efficient, deployed,
and now part of the federal standard for digital signatures,
FIPS 186-2 (and the draft of FIPS 186-3).

 >>Try the book you cited, section 11.2.3, Note 11.10, Example
 >>11.11, and Remark 11.12.
 >>
 >>    http://www.cacr.math.uwaterloo.ca/hac/
 >
 > Yup, I read those, and yeah, I know what they are talking about, and 
yeah,
 > that's not what I said. It's not about decrypting to sign, encrypting to
 > verify, it's about the redundancy function.

Which decrypt-to-sign doesn't have.  In particular, look at your
code.  HAC says, "Selection of an appropriate [redundancy
function] is critical to the security of the system."  That's a
key place where your code falls down.

 > In case you use a proper hash
 > function (I'm talking about identity with SHAing before signing),
 > this attack blatantly fails,

Actually, I was the one who wrote "Always hash and pad, for any
size message," and included code that uses SHA-1.  Your follow-
up code didn't hash at all.  Since the attack fails for the
method I use, but works against yours, I don't see what you are
arguing.

 > as it would mean that you'd have to find hash collisions.
 > Even when I can easily find a m~ for which I have a valid signature m,
 > finding a plaintext for m~ which is meaningful should be impossible, 
due to
 > the hashing, for "long enough plaintext."

This one is subtle.  If I read your pseudo-code correctly, and
in the place of the message we assume a SHA-1 hash, then there
are 160 bits of hash digest, 16-bits of length, and the rest of
the bits are random.   Assuming the currently-most-popular RSA
key size, 1024 bits, the attacker has to control just 176 out of
1024 bits.  The verifier can check those 176 bits, but 847 or
848 bits can be anything.

I'm not sure off-hand how weak it is, but none of the currently-
respected signature methods allow a single hash digest to have
anywhere near 2^847 valid signatures in a 2^1024 signature
space.


 > And the example code I gave was not about leaving out hashing before 
putting
 > it throught the identity function as "redundancy", it was exactly about
 > reducing redundancy, which probably I was to stupid to explain 
correctly,
 > but I'll try now.

I can't read your mind.  I only knew what your post said your
code was about: "what I always implemented is something like
[...]".

The state-of-the art signature methods agree with you that some
randomness is a good thing.  The need for randomness in
signatures is not yet well-understood; it's an assumption of the
(relative) security proofs, but no one has yet proved it is
necessary.


 >>Don't do that, even for encryption.  See Bleichenbacher's
 >>attacks on RSA encryption:
 >>
 >>  http://www.bell-labs.com/user/bleichen/bib.html
 >
 >
 > Link doesn't work...

Hmm... works for me.  Odd.  Googling "Bleichenbacher" + "RSA"
should find it.


 > But anyway, look at the same book on page 288, (ii):
 >
 > "A pseudorandomly generated bitstring should be appended to the 
plaintext
 > before encryption (this is also called salting)."
 >
 > That's exactly what my little example was trying to do: append a salt 
to the
 > data which was being encrypted.

And that's why I didn't fault your example for lack of
randomness. (Though technically the message and length could
fill the block, and thus not allow any randomness.  That would
be a big mistake for encryption, and arguably a mistake for
signatures.)

If you have questions about these things, I suggest asking them
on sci.crypt.  My advice here is to use cryptosystems that
experts have already vetted; do not roll your own variants.


-- 
--Bryan


From pink at odahoda.de  Sat Aug 28 05:22:52 2004
From: pink at odahoda.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:22:52 +0200
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
In-Reply-To: <1gj82n3.1ylkr3nierngmN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xzn4gwgea.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7a1o.1a5d2q410jsn2kN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xisb4xnh5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7c1a.tfdm14p3hclcN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xd61benm9.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj82n3.1ylkr3nierngmN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <cgpj1l$i0f$06$1@news.t-online.com>

Alex Martelli wrote:
> Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:
> 
> 
>>aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:
>>
>>>While the overall way the new import hooks work is well documented in
>>>their PEP, zipimport is admittedly underdocumented.  I suggest peeking
>>
>>OK.  I'll look at the PEP.  I think adding signing is hairy enough
>>that it should have its own round of discussion; should I see about
>>editing the PEP to add something about signing?
> 
> 
> I think that would be an excellent idea.  If it was just about allowing
> import from signed zipfiles it might not be needed, but how best to let
> the user optionally DIS-allow imports from UN-signed files does appear
> to be something requiring a little debate.  An environment variable
> would have the advantage of letting the disallowing work even for the
> early imports that Python does before application code gets control, but
> some people dislike relying on environment variables particularly for
> security-related configuration tasks.  Would it make sense to rely on a
> naming convention instead?  I.e. foo.zip would be unsigned but bar.jar
> would have to be signed or else no go.  This would have the advantage of
> allowing substantial granularity in controlling this.
Isn't the purpose of signatures that the importing program can trust the 
module? If it's implemented as you suggest, an attacker could just 
inject path to an unsigned module into PYTHONPATH to fool a program. How 
about something like

require_signature('mymodule')
import mymodule

or

import mymodule
verify_module(mymodule)

Another question is, where to place (require|verify)_signature() (that 
could also take a CA key (or list of) as optional argument to only allow 
modules signed by this CA). It must not be imported from an untrusted 
module.
The whole signing thing probably make only sense, if python and it's 
stdlib can be trusted (=signed).

Or am I missing other useful applications of signed archives?


> 
> Side question, does module zipfile already have the code to allow
> reading such signed files?  Otherwise a first, uncontentious step, in
> parallel with the PEP, might be a patch to add that ability to zipfile.
> 
> 
> Alex
>   


From greg at invalid.invalid  Tue Aug 17 20:28:02 2004
From: greg at invalid.invalid (Greg Krohn)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 00:28:02 GMT
Subject: what is wrong with this program?
In-Reply-To: <8f17f4bc.0408171623.4f055fb3@posting.google.com>
References: <8f17f4bc.0408171623.4f055fb3@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <moxUc.5500$3O3.3720@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>

Ali wrote:
> The following program is supposed to show a menu but it isnt showing
> the drop down menus. It only shows the File and Help thing.

The code you posted doesn't even run. Copy and paste the *exact code* 
that you used, and maybe we can help.


Greg


From tim.leslie at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 11:56:59 2004
From: tim.leslie at gmail.com (Tim Leslie)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:56:59 +1000
Subject: object.*
In-Reply-To: <a1d2c9b4.0408260741.3a474bd8@posting.google.com>
References: <a1d2c9b4.0408260741.3a474bd8@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <d32b453504082608561ee2935d@mail.gmail.com>

An approximation of this functionality can be obtained using the built
in dir() command. A quick example follows:
>>> class C:
...     def __init__(self):
...             self.a = 1
...             self.b = 2
...     def f(self):
...             return self.a + self.b 
... 
>>> c = C()
>>> dir(c)
['__doc__', '__init__', '__module__', 'a', 'b', 'f']
>>> ["c." + x for x in dir(c)]
['c.__doc__', 'c.__init__', 'c.__module__', 'c.a', 'c.b', 'c.f']
>>> map(eval, ["c." + x for x in dir(c)])
[None, <bound method C.__init__ of <__main__.C instance at
0x401ec50c>>, '__main__', 1, 2, <bound method C.f of <__main__.C
instance at 0x401ec50c>>]

Cheers,

Tim

On 26 Aug 2004 08:41:25 -0700, DeadWisdom <deadwisdom at wisefool.net> wrote:
> I think there should be an ability in python to write something like
> "object.*" which should return a dictionary object containing all the
> members and their values for the given object.  Maybe ".*" could be
> treated as an operator. ::shrug::
> 
> Perhaps the functionality already exists in some other syntax; if so
> please splain.
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From igouy at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  3 12:23:31 2004
From: igouy at yahoo.com (Isaac Gouy)
Date: 3 Aug 2004 09:23:31 -0700
Subject: The Great Computer Language Shootout (updated )
Message-ID: <ce7ef1c8.0408030823.46846a9c@posting.google.com>

"The Great Computer Language Shootout" was mentioned a few months ago
- note that the Shootout is active and welcoming contributions at:

   http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/


From M.Waack at gmx.de  Wed Aug 25 16:51:30 2004
From: M.Waack at gmx.de (Mathias Waack)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:51:30 +0200
Subject: authentication service for unix
References: <cgiqb2$2h4$01$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <inavv1-0eh.ln1@valpo.de>

Diez B. Roggisch wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> this is not so much a python question, but as my app is developed
> in python, I'll ask anway.
> 
> I'm looking for a method to authenticate users for a corba
> application server, running under linux. I want to be able to
> authenticate users that are valid unix users. Having role/group
> information would be nice later on.
> 
> Currently I use PAM, but thats not so good as I have to run the
> process as root - but for obvious reasons I don't especially like
> that idea.

Using PAM is definitively not the reason why your process must be run
as root. What exactly are you doing?

Mathias


From fumanchu at amor.org  Mon Aug 23 10:11:57 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 07:11:57 -0700
Subject: J2 paper 0.2.1
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E37@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Andrew Durdin wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 22:19:31 -0700, Robert Brewer 
> <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote:
> > The first draft of the J2 proposal is ready. You can read it here:
> > http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html
> 
> A very nice job. Regarding the suggestion for "using" in Argument III:
> 
> """
>     * It "reads correctly" in every use case.
> """
> 
> Can you include an example with the "using" keyword, so that the
> reader doesn't have to construct one himself to see how this might be
> so?
> 
> e.g.
> 
> using:
>     memoize
>     classmethod
>     synchronize
>     funcattrs(author="Guido Van Rossum")
> def foo(cls, *args):
>     pass
> -- 

Sure.

I'll also use this opportunity to tell everyone that I may not answer
every such suggestion on the list, if my answer consists of "OK". But
rest assured, I'm reading every response.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk  Thu Aug 26 07:13:43 2004
From: michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk (Michael Sparks)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:13:43 +0100
Subject: Best GUI- Python for children - pygame and blender32
References: <f06d8508.0408250712.63360fc2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgkh5r$a5$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>

Andr? Roberge wrote:

> Sorry about the cryptic subject line, but I wanted to capture the
> essence of my message in a single line.
> 
> I am learning Python (which, as everyone know is the best language :-)
> so that I can write a tutorial to teach my kids about computer
> programming.  

Have you seen the LiveWires course? It's been running several years
now and sounds like they've been successful. They use Tk and pygame
for what it's worth. 
   * http://www.livewires.org.uk/python/

Regards,


Michael.
-- 
Michael.Sparks at rd.bbc.co.uk    
British Broadcasting Corporation, Research and Development
Kingswood Warren, Surrey KT20 6NP

This message (and any attachments) may contain personal views
which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.




From jdc at uwo.ca  Mon Aug  9 15:50:02 2004
From: jdc at uwo.ca (Dan Christensen)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 15:50:02 -0400
Subject: decorators as a special case of an @ operator?
References: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>
	<87llgocrgq.fsf@uwo.ca> <DdSdnQot5MbxAIrcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
	<87d620cld8.fsf@uwo.ca> <I_OdnYWJRvrPJorcRVn-qw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <87fz6wgkgl.fsf@uwo.ca>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> writes:

> Dan Christensen wrote:
>> Is there any reason that python doesn't automatically
>> continue all incomplete binary operators, allowing
>>    x = a_very_long_expression +
>>        another_long_expression
>> ?
>
> Very likely, as is usual with Python, to avoid implicitly
> assuming something that could well be wrong, thus failing
> in a possibly very hard to find way, without warning.
>
> x = a_very_long_expression +
> some_function_that_might_return_a_value()
>
> Now, was the first line a typo, with a missing extra value,
> or was it really intended to add the result of the function
> call on the second line?

Good point.  What if python did automatic continuation in this
situation only if the second line was further indented?

This is ok:

  x = a_very_long_expression +
    some_function_that_might_return_a_value()

This suggests the programmer forget to finish the first line:

  x = a_very_long_expression +
  some_function_that_might_return_a_value()

I just dislike those backslash characters.  And I'm always
afraid there's hidden whitespace after them:

>>> 1 + \  
  File "<stdin>", line 1
    1 + \  
          ^
SyntaxError: invalid token

Thanks for your comments!

Dan


From d.mikesell at computer.org  Wed Aug 11 13:00:32 2004
From: d.mikesell at computer.org (Dave Mikesell)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 10:00:32 -0700
Subject: Ogre3d Python bindings (was Re: 3D Graphics Engines)
Message-ID: <a671c47f.0408110900.6e0eb1f@posting.google.com>

>> You can have a look to Ogre: www.ogre3d.org.
>> Python bindings may not be up to date, but they should be at the
first
>> official release (which should now happen in a not so far future).

>On a brief inspection (bad, busy day) I couldn't see *either* python
>binaries *or* prebuilt binaries at the site you pointed to.

Looks like Ogre3d has "resurrected" their Python bindings as of late
July:

http://www.ogre3d.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=261&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0


From gandalf at geochemsource.com  Wed Aug 18 14:23:39 2004
From: gandalf at geochemsource.com (Gandalf)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:23:39 +0200
Subject: Platform independent way to play an mp3 file
In-Reply-To: <31575A892FF6D1118F5800600846864D01AE29A3@intrepid>
References: <31575A892FF6D1118F5800600846864D01AE29A3@intrepid>
Message-ID: <41239EAB.903@geochemsource.com>


SBrunning at trisystems.co.uk wrote:

>>From: Gandalf [mailto:gandalf at geochemsource.com]
>>
>>  
>>Oh yes, I know about this. But it seems it is working on
>>Linux and Windows only. I have Solaris, FreeBSD and AS/400
>>clients too.
>>:-(
>>    
>>
>
>AS/400 clients? '400s don't have *any* sound support at all, so good luck
>with that one. ;-)
>
Oh, okay. That's fine. At least I can tell something to my bosses. :-D
But what about FreeBSD?

>  
>
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From t_therkelsen at hotmail.com  Mon Aug  9 18:47:52 2004
From: t_therkelsen at hotmail.com (Troels Therkelsen)
Date: 09 Aug 2004 22:47:52 GMT
Subject: Popular Python projects with lots of pure Python code
References: <mailman.1418.1092088893.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnchfvom.t6.t_therkelsen@abattoir.2-10.org>

In article <mailman.1418.1092088893.5135.python-list at python.org>, Brett C. wrote:
> For my thesis (once the bloody thing stops throwing bugs at me) I am 
> going to need to collect stats on the frequency that atomic types in 
> local variables are applied to various opcodes and methods.  That means 
> that I need something to collect stats off of.
> 
> So I am trying to come up with a list of projects I can use to get my 
> stats from.  the stdlib is a no-brainer.  Also plan to use Docutils. 
> But beyond those most of the big Python projects I can think of have a 
> ton of C code which is of no use to me.  I don't need to be able to run 
> it, just going to be compiling to .py files.
> 
> Any suggestions?

What about MoinMoin and Mailman?  Those are fairly large-ish pure-python
projects.

If 100% pure python isn't a must, PIL might also be able to yield useful stats
as all of the abstraction is done in python.

Hope this helps,

Troels Therkelsen


From robey at slash_dev_slash_random.org  Wed Aug 18 16:28:39 2004
From: robey at slash_dev_slash_random.org (Robey Holderith)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:28:39 -0500
Subject: name of current program
References: <mailman.1895.1092857261.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.18.20.28.38.60938@slash_dev_slash_random.org>

This should give you the script name.

sys.argv[0]

-Robey


On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:27:39 -0500, Josh Close wrote:

> This is a simple question, but I can't find the answer for some reason.
> 
> How do I get the name of the current script/program that is running?
> 
> -Josh



From bh at intevation.de  Fri Aug  6 14:31:04 2004
From: bh at intevation.de (Bernhard Herzog)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 20:31:04 +0200
Subject: unicode to ascii converting
References: <mailman.1296.1091813051.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1091815856.527127@news.commspeed.net>
	<mailman.1301.1091816463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <s9z8ycs9l07.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>

Peter Wilkinson <pwilkinson at videotron.ca> writes:

> It would be good to find out _why_ this happens in the first place. I
> will keep do a little searching on this for a few days.

Most likely because you have characters in that file that are not in the
ASCII character set. ASCII is after all only a very small subset of
unicode.  E.g.

>>> u"?".encode("ascii")
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xe4' in position 0: ordinal not in range(128)


If it's OK to lose information, you could use the error argument to
.encode like

>>> u"?".encode("ascii", "ignore")
''

or

>>> u"?".encode("ascii", "replace")
'?'


   Bernhard

-- 
Intevation GmbH                                 http://intevation.de/
Skencil                                http://sketch.sourceforge.net/
Thuban                                  http://thuban.intevation.org/


From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 16 01:18:19 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 00:18:19 -0500
Subject: Python secure?
In-Reply-To: <cforh6$qiv$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<ZKRTc.3710$bJ2.23892@news1.mts.net>
	<cforh6$qiv$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <UrXTc.3774$bJ2.24876@news1.mts.net>

> My reason for choosing Python was one, that it is free, so if my efforts
> amount to nothing I haven't wasted money, two, that it is supposed to be an
> easy language when compared to some others and three, that my application
> when finished, probably wouldn't sell for that much and not in any great
> quantities for me to gamble spending something like ?1000 on Visual C /
> ++ this that and the other or whatever.

Free C/C++ compiler (win32) through:
gcc/g++ on cygwin http://www.cygwin.com
or with the ide
Dev-C++ http://www.bloodshed.net/devcpp.html

And of course any *NIX will come with gcc/g++ pre-installed.

But learning C/C++ right off the bat makes for bad programming habits 
and loss of hair.  I would still recommend getting down the basics of 
programming with Python and then moving onto C or C++ (especially if you 
are learning on your own).  Of course that is if these languages suit 
your project better.


From brianc at temple.edu  Mon Aug  2 16:41:58 2004
From: brianc at temple.edu (brianc at temple.edu)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:41:58 -0400
Subject: Class optimization at runtime
Message-ID: <c93d020d.69b8f752.9096500@po-d.temple.edu>

I would like to optimize my classes at run time. The question
is where to put my "if" statement. 
-Inside __main__?
if option:
    class Foo:
        def __init__:
            #do stuff
else:
    class Foo:
        def __init__:
            #do other stuff
-Inside class definition?
class Foo:
    if option:
        def __init__:
            #do stuff
    else:
        def __init__:
            #do other stuff
-Inside each method definition?
class Foo:
    def __init__:
        if option:
            #do stuff
        else:
            #do other stuff

Class instances will be created millions of times and the
method's on them called even more so whatever brings the most
speed will be used. I fear that the more readable way to do it
is also the slowest. 

Thanks in advance,
-Brian


From tdelaney at avaya.com  Thu Aug 19 20:09:13 2004
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy))
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:09:13 +1000
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
Message-ID: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01D591A7@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

Paul McGuire wrote:

> I would propose a multivote survey: each poster gets 3 votes among the
> lettered choices on the Wiki page above.  You can use all 3 for a
> single option, or split them across 2 or 3 options if you are open to
> more than one.

I think a web page for tabulating votes would be better (see the
response to the previous vote on 3 syntaxes).

I also think the top contenders as identified by Brett should be the
only options in order to focus things (Guido is *not* going to accept
anything with < 20% vote ;)

Did Brett include J2 - if not, I think there's enough support to include
it as well ...

Anyway, my vote is C1, C1, J2.

Tim Delaney


From spam at mouse-potato.com  Sat Aug 28 12:05:47 2004
From: spam at mouse-potato.com (Pascal Bourguignon)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 18:05:47 +0200
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4dyXc.25792$Ot3.22106@twister.nyc.rr.com>
	<878yc0ucyl.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<cgnr8l$egb$1@nntp.webmaster.com>
	<20040827135423.154$1T@newsreader.com>
	<cgp2u4$5nk$1@nntp.webmaster.com>
	<cgq7ki$eg1$1@hercules.btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <87llfzqmck.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>

Ian Wilson <scobloke2 at infotop.co.uk> writes:

> David Schwartz wrote:
> 
> > <ctcgag at hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:20040827135423.154$1T at newsreader.com...
> >
> >>"David Schwartz" <davids at webmaster.com> wrote:
> >
> >>>    I don't follow you at all. I think you'll find the most useful,
> >>>meaningful complaints about, say, a Ford Explorer from the people who
> >>>drive one every day.
> >
> >>And if they continue to drive one everyday, perhaps you would conclude
> >>that their complaints are insincere.
> >     That's a load of crap.
> >     DS
> >
> 
> 
> You're both right but ...
> 
> Xah Lee: "I'm starting my own cult to exterminate morons on
> this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl."
> 
> Pascal Bourguignon: <Xah Lee's website runs on Linux, a Unix-like OS>
> 
> 
> Is more like
> 
> Joe Blow: I'm going to exterminate all morons who drive a Ford Explorer.
> 
> Fred Bloggs: But Joe, you drive a Ford Explorer!
> 
> 
> Rather than
> 
> Joe Blow: Ford Explorers are a little bit expensive to service and the
> doors squeak after a couple of years.
> 
> Fred Bloggs: Thanks for the tip Joe, I see you drive one, so you
> should know.

Case closed.  (And probably Xah has suicidal impulses).

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never
stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and
neither do we.


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 21:17:52 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 21:17:52 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <b8ad139e.0408271635.6b76e9b7@posting.google.com>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408261420.22d14998@posting.google.com>	<mailman.2478.1093564289.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b8ad139e.0408271635.6b76e9b7@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgomfu$eig$2@sea.gmane.org>

Jess Austin wrote:

> Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.2478.1093564289.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> 
>>Nope, that was me alright.  I don't want a function to have access to 
>>it's metadata.  Nothing's changed about that.  I want to be able to 
>>specify a function's metadata inside the function def, where it seems to 
>>most appropriately belong.
> 
> 
> So you have:
> 
> def foo(x):
>     __meta_variable__ = 42
>     variable = 5
>     return dir()
> 
> And you're volunteering to explain to a newbie, or even a nearly
> intermediate programmer like myself, why the list that is returned
> from this function contains 'x' and 'variable' but not
> '__meta_variable__'?  

Sure.  Magic attributes defined at the top level of a function (e.g. 
your __meta_variable__) aren't intended to be local variables.  You'll 
see that as you start looking at more experienced programmer's code. 
Therfore, they shouldn't be treated as local variables.  For example, 
suppose we changed your function a little...

   def foo(x):
      __author__ = 'Jess Austin'
      __version__ = '1.0'
      variable = 5
      return dir()

See the difference?



> 
>>Others seem to want to specify a function's metadata outside of the 
>>function def, which just doesn't seem pythonic (IMO).
> 
> 
> If you really understood Python's scoping rules, you would know that
> this opinion is the opposite of the truth.

A decorator is a kind of meta information.  So are docstrings.  The 
proposals I've been seeing (A1 and J2 in particular) declare decorators 
and docstrings outside of the function def (not inside of the function def).

> Of all the current
> incarnations of function "metadata", only one may be set within the
> function, and that one is not set using a standard binding statement:
> 

True and True, provided that you believe that docstrings are the only 
kind of function metadata.  I believe though that attributes like 
__author__ and __version__ above are also function metadata.


> In broader commentary, as I've said, pep318
> isn't really about metadata.  One reason is that metadata isn't that
> important.  

By this you mean "in your opinion", right?


Paul



From ville at spammers.com  Sun Aug 22 12:36:38 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 19:36:38 +0300
Subject: On consensus decision-making (was Re: Alternative decorator
	syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WEDONE?)
References: <mailman.2153.1093185119.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<z-adnRDpSpoTJrXcRVn-iw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <du7n00ngmeh.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Peter" == Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> writes:

    Peter> at this stage.  (In consensus building, a "block" basically
    Peter> says that someone would refuse to support the community
    Peter> decision, while 100% consensus means no one blocks the
    Peter> decision even though some people may not feel it reflects
    Peter> their first choice.)

So, to proceed building community consensus for J2, the community
needs to be asked whether they would block J2 (possibly with the
"using" keyword) in favor of another non- at pie syntax?

Obviously people who don't want any syntax at all should be ignored in
the consensus building process...

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From robey at slash_dev_slash_random.org  Wed Aug 18 18:05:40 2004
From: robey at slash_dev_slash_random.org (Robey Holderith)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:05:40 -0500
Subject: Embedding Python in Python
References: <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
	<7xu0v0l2be.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<cg09ne$ma7$1@fred.mathworks.com>
	<7x3c2kkzn8.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<cg0bjf$78b$1@fred.mathworks.com>
	<pan.2004.08.18.21.03.27.96687@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
	<cg0ee5$no$2@fred.mathworks.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.18.22.05.40.370212@slash_dev_slash_random.org>

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:33:09 +0000, JCM wrote:

> Robey Holderith <robey at slash_dev_slash_random.org> wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:44:47 +0000, JCM wrote:
> ...
>>> I don't think it's as difficult as you think.  Your snippet of code
>>> would be rejected by the rules I suggested.  You'd also want to
>>> prohibit other builtins like compile, execfile, input, reload, vars,
>>> etc.
> 
>> I'm going to have to agree with Paul on this one.  I do not feel up to
>> the task of thinking of every possible variant of malicious code.  There
>> are far too many ways of writing the exact same thing.  I think it would
>> be much easier to write my own interpreter. 
> 
> Well it certainly isn't easier to write your own interpreter if you're
> talking about the effort you'd need to put into it.  And I'm not
> convinced it's that tricky to come up with a set of syntax rules to
> decide whether a piece of code is simple/safe enough to run.  It
> basically comes down to disallowing certain statements and certain
> identifiers.  Of course you'll end up rejecting a lot of code that
> isn't malicious.
> 
> If you're interested enough, I'll try to throw a safety-checker
> together.  You'd have to be pretty interested though (I'm lazy).


Don't do it on my behalf.  I started far too many projects doing something
similar before I realized that the only effective way to do security was
from the bottom up.  The problem looks something like this (assuming each
function has 10 places where it is implemented.

Level   |  Malicious Variation Count
-----------------------------------------
0       |    10^0
1       |    10^1
2       |    10^2
x       |    10^x

Suffice to say that in simple code... it is doable.  In a
mature interpreter... near impossible.

-Robey




From ben at benlast.com  Thu Aug 19 05:49:32 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:49:32 +0100
Subject: favorite python web development tool?
In-Reply-To: <5339b60d.0408190123.2a8adb87@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPGEGGCEAA.ben@benlast.com>

> From Paul Boddie
> Well, <insert screaming advocacy here>. Alternatively, you could take
> a look at the WebProgramming section [1] of the PythonInfo Wiki [2].
> And if other respondents contributed their opinions to that resource,
> we wouldn't necessarily have the situation where people regard that
> resource as confusing whilst giving a parade of the frameworks every
> time someone asks how to do CGI with Python.
No, we'd have a parade of screaming advocacy on the Wiki Page instead. :)
But I guess anyone willing to edit one wiki might be willing to do another:
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?PythonLanguage

b



From roy at panix.com  Mon Aug  9 19:19:34 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 19:19:34 -0400
Subject: Popular Python projects with lots of pure Python code
References: <mailman.1418.1092088893.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-820DA3.19193409082004@reader1.panix.com>

In article <mailman.1418.1092088893.5135.python-list at python.org>,
 "Brett C." <bac at OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:

> For my thesis (once the bloody thing stops throwing bugs at me) I am 
> going to need to collect stats on the frequency that atomic types in 
> local variables are applied to various opcodes and methods.  That means 
> that I need something to collect stats off of.
> 
> So I am trying to come up with a list of projects I can use to get my 
> stats from.  the stdlib is a no-brainer.  Also plan to use Docutils. 
> But beyond those most of the big Python projects I can think of have a 
> ton of C code which is of no use to me.  I don't need to be able to run 
> it, just going to be compiling to .py files.
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> -Brett

Ilya Etingof's PySNMP package is a pretty large collection of Python 
code.  See http://pysnmp.sourceforge.net/


From alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 26 18:34:43 2004
From: alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 15:34:43 -0700
Subject: about presicion
Message-ID: <8f17f4bc.0408261434.1a73e874@posting.google.com>

I was wondering if it was posible to get very good presicion. I mean
like to the to the 100 th or more decimal place. if so how?


From benn at cenix-bioscience.com  Fri Aug 13 03:48:50 2004
From: benn at cenix-bioscience.com (Neil Benn)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:48:50 +0200
Subject: Pyhton Interpreter Startup time
In-Reply-To: <EvadnaKm3bI9N4bcRVn-iQ@powergate.ca>
References: <mailman.1556.1092304607.5135.python-list@python.org>	<30260531.0408120829.27a536bc@posting.google.com>
	<EvadnaKm3bI9N4bcRVn-iQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <411C7262.1000803@cenix-bioscience.com>

Peter Hansen wrote:

> <snip>
> I don't recall the OP in the last thread that discussed this
> ever coming back to report on exactly what OS and CPU etc.
> he was using, and whether network issues might be involved,
> etc, so until someone can prove otherwise, I think it's
> safe to assume that anyone with a slow startup on Windows
> has a misconfiguration or is doing something wrong.
>
<snip>
Hello,

          Hi, I'm the OP, my box is :

WinXP Pro
2.4Gz Processor
256M RAM
Python2.3

    As I said the first load takes 5 seconds and the consecutive loads 
take fractions of a second - my assumption is that Windows is caching 
something which is not suitable for my needs as it is not predictable 
enough.  There is no network issues involved in this, everything is 
running off the local hard drive.  I've just this moment run python 
after the box having done some work and being asleep overnight and the 
startup time was about 2 seconds.  I may be doing something wrong but 
the only configuration stuff I've done is to add into my environment 
variables :

PYTHON_HOME=c:\program files\python23
PATH=%PATH%;PYTHON_HOME

    This is simply to allow me to switch between different python 
directories when I start to install different versions (I do the same 
with the JVM).  If python can't start up quick on windows, that's fine, 
if I've got something miscofigured which can be fixed, that's fine too - 
I just need to know if there is a 'quick start up' mode but if there 
isn't then that's also fine.  It's just info I need to design what will 
be a very simple app.

    Thanks, for your help.

Cheers,

Neil

-- 

Neil Benn
Senior Automation Engineer
Cenix BioScience
BioInnovations Zentrum
Tatzberg 47
D-01307
Dresden
Germany

Tel : +49 (0)351 4173 154
e-mail : benn at cenix-bioscience.com
Cenix Website : http://www.cenix-bioscience.com



From chris at shiftzz.com  Fri Aug 13 13:13:25 2004
From: chris at shiftzz.com (Chris C)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 10:13:25 -0700
Subject: DIME Attachments
Message-ID: <b190a0ac.0408130913.281ca4ef@posting.google.com>

I've been looking all around for any libraries or code for parsing
dime attachments from Microsoft .NET Web Services.

Any ideas?

I am writing my client code on a linux box and calling SOAP web
services on a windows box, which returns a DIME attachment.  DIME
doesn't appear to use the same boundaryies as a MIME message.

Thanks for any ideas.

Chris


From theller at python.net  Mon Aug 23 14:44:33 2004
From: theller at python.net (Thomas Heller)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:44:33 +0200
Subject: py2exe, PyXML, and utf-16-be Error
References: <67e04df1.0408230913.3c12f1a8@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <u0utk832.fsf@python.net>

david_brownell at hotmail.com (David Brownell) writes:

> I am using the XMLValidateParser in the PyXML library
> (xml.sax.sax2exts.XMLValParserFactory.make_parser).  When I run my
> script, everything works as expected.
>
> When I "compile" my script using py2exe, I get the following error
> when running the exe:
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   <my modules removed for brevity>
>   File "xml\sax\sax2exts.pyc", line 13, in make_parser
>   File "xml\sax\saxexts.pyc", line 64, in make_parser
>   File "xml\sax\saxexts.pyc", line 42, in _create_parser
>   File "xml\sax\drivers2\drv_xmlproc.pyc", line 9, in ?
>   File "xml\parsers\xmlproc\xmlproc.pyc", line 14, in ?
>   File "xml\parsers\xmlproc\dtdparser.pyc", line 12, in ?
>   File "xml\parsers\xmlproc\xmlutils.pyc", line 43, in ?
> LookupError: unknown encoding: utf-16-be
>
> While using py2exe, I specify "--packages xml".  Is there something
> else I need to specify to enable utf-16-be encoding?

I would guess "--packages xml,encodings" should do the trick.

Thomas


From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz  Fri Aug 27 00:34:33 2004
From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:34:33 +1200
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <412e3ba4$0$92817$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgkeio$spo$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<7xhdqp967k.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<412e3ba4$0$92817$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>
Message-ID: <2p7rurFhgglpU1@uni-berlin.de>

Michael Sparks wrote:
> I think I'd agree. However for many people outside of python-dev and those
> who only dip into c.l.p, the @pie came as a big shock.

It came as a shock to people *in* python-dev, too. It just
appeared one day as a fait accompli, without any opportunity
for discussion.

-- 
Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept,
University of Canterbury,	
Christchurch, New Zealand
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Fri Aug  6 17:27:59 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 17:27:59 -0400
Subject: @decorators
References: <d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa@posting.google.com><10h6v76mm313cce@news.supernews.com>
	<cf05e8$41d$2@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
Message-ID: <cf0t51$l3t$1@sea.gmane.org>


"David Fraser" <davidf at sjsoft.com> wrote in message
news:cf05e8$41d$2 at ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> John Roth wrote:

> > "daishi" <google at daishi.fastmail.fm> wrote in message
> > news:d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa at posting.google.com...
> >>As far as I know, the proposed @decorator syntax will be the first
> >>time that two logical lines of python with the same indentation will
> >>not be independent of one another.

> > Examples:
> >
> > try - except - finally
> > if - elif - else
> > while - else
>
> I think he mean two consecutive lines of python code with the same
> indentation.

And the same examples apply:

if like(atdeco): print 'hooray'
else:                print 'boo'

Terry J. Reedy






From fumanchu at amor.org  Sun Aug 22 14:58:21 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:58:21 -0700
Subject: Python is to C as letters are to words.
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E2B@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

r holland wrote:
> Subject: Python is to C as letters are to words.
> 
> My nine word description of the python language.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant:

"Python is to C as words are to letters."

Good quote.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From noone at nowhere.com  Wed Aug  4 13:53:45 2004
From: noone at nowhere.com (dusty)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 17:53:45 GMT
Subject: Question on coding QCheckListView (newbee)
Message-ID: <5182h0pc4p12kbv2hnb2u2a35ee5l0mmq9@4ax.com>

I have several years experience using Delphi writing apps in windoz
(not professional) and now in a effort to completely remove windoz, I
am trying to re-write my apps using Python, PyQt and Qt Designer.

I am using a QCheckListView and have a need to read the text and level
(parent or child) of a selected item. I am confused by the C code
information in the QT help and have been unsuccessful in extracting
this information.

I would appreciate any help I can get with code examples.


From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Aug 19 10:55:47 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:55:47 +0200
Subject: newbie
References: <mailman.1958.1092926275.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cg2f1j$gss$04$1@news.t-online.com>

JASON JESSO wrote:

> I'm trying to add a mode to a mkdir program a got off
> the python cookbook.
> 
> The error I get is:
> ./mkdir.py jason 0777
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "./mkdir.py", line 31, in ?
>     _mkdir( sys.argv[1], sys.argv[2] )
>   File "./mkdir.py", line 25, in _mkdir
>     os.mkdir( newdir, mode )
> TypeError: an integer is required
> 
> When I convert the mode from a string to an octal with
> oct(int(sys.argv[2])) the permissions are all screwed
> up.

oct() converts an integer to the octal _string_ representation - that's why
python sees a string where an integer is required. Internally there is no
such thing as a decimal or an octal integer. Therefore you just have to
convert the octal string representation given on the command line to an
integer. This is done like so:

int(sys.argv[2], 8) 

Here the second parameter is the base (the default being, of course, 10).

Peter



From bokr at oz.net  Sun Aug  1 18:24:52 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 1 Aug 2004 22:24:52 GMT
Subject: slowdown with massive memory usage
References: <HBF.20040730sz32@bombur.uio.no>
	<mailman.993.1091236388.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HBF.20040801c753@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <cejqjk$l5l$0@216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

On 01 Aug 2004 22:08:14 +0200, Hallvard B Furuseth <h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no> wrote:

>Andrew MacIntyre wrote:
>> On Sat, 30 Jul 2004, Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
>>> I have a program which starts by reading a lot of data into various
>>> dicts.
>>>
>>> When I moved a function to create one such dict from near the beginning
>>> of the program to a later time, that function slowed down by a factor
>>> of 8-14:
>> (...)
>>
>> Python 2.2 didn't use PyMalloc by default.  This leaves Python at the
>> mercy of the platform malloc()/realloc()/free(), and Python has found
>> rough spots with nearly every platform's implementation of these - which
>> is why PyMalloc was written.
>> 
>> While it isn't certain that this is your problem, if you can rebuild your
>> Python interpreter to include PyMalloc (--with-pymalloc I think), you can
>> find out.
>
>Thanks.  I'll check that when I get time.  Until then, malloc gets the
>blame until proven innocent, since profiling and test output turned out
>nothing else that was different.  (See my reply to Istvan.)
>
>> Be warned that there were some bugs in PyMalloc that were fixed before
>> Python 2.3 was released (when PyMalloc became a default option); as far as
>> I recall, these bugfixes were never backported to 2.2x.  So I wouldn't
>> recommend running a 2.2.3 PyMalloc enabled interpreter in production
>> without seriously testing all your production code.
>
>If PyMalloc helps, I'll push for an upgrade to 2.3.  Thanks again.
>
Speculating broadly here, but have you considered possible cache effects?
I.e., instructions execute faster when they and their operands can be fetched
from the CPU cache, and similarly L2 cache is faster than RAM. What is in
the caches at any point depends on what has recently been executed, and
how different memory areas map into the cache, and that will probably depend
on where you have put things in your program and what order you call for its
execution (the OS kernel may also affect the cache via interrupt service routines
and/or multitasking etc, e.g., for downloading or playing music in the background
(which I doubt you did) ;-) ). If you have multiple CPUs they do better if they
don't work on each others' jobs too much, since a switch tends to mess up caching.
I think some older kernels don't take that into account, but maybe that's all
history by now.

In a loop, typically the first time through will show cacheloading overhead, and
the rest will benefit, with blips for interrupts or interpreter special effects
such as extending an allocation pool or garbage collecting. These get washed out
in big averages, or filtered out in best-of timings, but they can be seen if you
create a graphic that shows every timing (e.g. a raster of dots colored by time
if there's a lot of timings). (Of course you have to watch out that your data
capture doesn't cause overhead that invalidates your results. It can be tricky.)

Another effect that has shown up as mystery culprit in the past is CPU heating and
consequent automatic slowing of the clock to prevent damage, but that doesn't
seem that likely in this case.

Another way you could lose time is if your code gets into a new relationship in
time with some other code than yours. Just speculating in general here, but if you are
processing data coming from a disk or other i/o that has some natural clumping
to it in the OS, such as waiting for an interrupt that says the next cluster read
is ready to fill buffers from, and for one arrangement of your code that happened
just before you executed and the other way just after, then there would be a difference
in interfering cache effects due to OS activity. Also, if you do a succession of i/o
that can't physically happen back to back, then you should be able to gain by doing
some computing in between. OS buffering and disk caches mitigate this, but you can empty or stuff
them so they demand physical i/o, depending on your program. Moving such code would
presumably have an effect on overall timing.

Of course, if you are also doing multi-threaded stuff in your program, it's another ball game.
My USD.02

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Sun Aug  1 19:34:05 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 16:34:05 -0700
Subject: SFTP  file transfer library
References: <l1sqg0dh4epuijglt3k4hmusduk1k75bq2@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <39b0u1-c8a.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

Lothar Scholz wrote:
> at the moment i have a program that uses FTP but some clients want to
> use the FTP over SSH protocol.
>
> Is there a library that does this ?
> And also where can i find the protocol specification. I never used SSH
> very much and only know how to start a SSH shell from my windows
> client.

There is an excellent Python library named paramiko you can find
at http://www.lag.net/~robey/paramiko/

As for the second part of your question, try this:

http://www.google.com/search?q=ssh+protocol+specification

Roger




From cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca  Mon Aug 30 15:40:56 2004
From: cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca (David M. Cooke)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 15:40:56 -0400
Subject: about presicion
References: <mailman.2620.1093888204.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <qnk6570s9br.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>

At some point, "Batista, Facundo" <FBatista at uniFON.com.ar> wrote:

> [alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com]
>
> #- ok but where can i download deciaml? waht about gmpy? which 
> #- is better?
>
>>From http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/python/python/dist/src/Lib/
>
> Don't know gmpy, so I can't compare. But decimal will be in the standard
> library, so since Py2.4 you'll not need an external module.

http://gmpy.sourceforge.net/

-- 
|>|\/|<
/--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
|David M. Cooke
|cookedm(at)physics(dot)mcmaster(dot)ca


From michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk  Thu Aug 12 06:25:27 2004
From: michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk (Michael Sparks)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:25:27 +0100
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
	<60dfb6f6.0408111846.615ee9eb@posting.google.com>
	<3YWdnYxLf--ObofcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<cffbbu$amv$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <cffgqp$cgd$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>

Regarding J2 on http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators ...
...
>    5 Technical problems with the current grammar parser if a suite
>      *starts* with an optional part. (Ending with an optional part,
>      such as "else:" is OK, but starting with one is not.)
...
> Item 6 is always the case for any new feature, so I doubt that's the
> real problem - the real problem here strikes me as item 5.
> 
> I do wonder how difficult it would be to add though...

It doesn't actually seem that difficult to modify the grammar to handle
this if the decorator block handles *only* decorators. I've just tried
modifying the Grammar/Grammar file to see how plausible this is, and I
can get python to build and parse it. (It bombs out because I've not
done any backend work, and this is the first time I've touched the python
compiler source)

The change I made was this:

--- Python-2.4a2/Grammar/Grammar        2004-08-02 07:09:53.000000000 +0100
+++ Python-2.4a2-MS/Grammar/Grammar     2004-08-12 11:05:04.085386128 +0100
@@ -27,10 +27,13 @@
 single_input: NEWLINE | simple_stmt | compound_stmt NEWLINE
 file_input: (NEWLINE | stmt)* ENDMARKER
 eval_input: testlist NEWLINE* ENDMARKER
-
-decorator: '@' dotted_name [ '(' [arglist] ')' ]
+# decorator: '@' dotted_name [ '(' [arglist] ')' ]
+# decorators: decorator ([NEWLINE] decorator)* NEWLINE
+# funcdef: [decorators] 'def' NAME parameters ':' suite
+decorator: dotted_name [ '(' [arglist] ')' ]
 decorators: decorator ([NEWLINE] decorator)* NEWLINE
-funcdef: [decorators] 'def' NAME parameters ':' suite
+decoratedfuncdef: 'decorate' ':' NEWLINE INDENT decorators DEDENT funcdef
+funcdef: 'def' NAME parameters ':' suite
 parameters: '(' [varargslist] ')'
 varargslist: (fpdef ['=' test] ',')* ('*' NAME [',' '**' NAME] | '**' NAME) | fpdef ['=' test] (',' fpdef ['=' test])* [',']
 fpdef: NAME | '(' fplist ')'
@@ -59,7 +62,7 @@
 exec_stmt: 'exec' expr ['in' test [',' test]]
 assert_stmt: 'assert' test [',' test]

-compound_stmt: if_stmt | while_stmt | for_stmt | try_stmt | funcdef | classdef
+compound_stmt: if_stmt | while_stmt | for_stmt | try_stmt | funcdef| decoratedfuncdef | classdef
 if_stmt: 'if' test ':' suite ('elif' test ':' suite)* ['else' ':' suite]
 while_stmt: 'while' test ':' suite ['else' ':' suite]
 for_stmt: 'for' exprlist 'in' testlist ':' suite ['else' ':' suite]

This change seems to allow the following code to be parsed happily:

class Foo:
   decorate:
      staticmethod
   def hello(who):
      print "woo?", who

   def hello2(who):
      print "woo?", who

I say *seems* because I'm getting seg faults when I try and *run* the
above, but the following produces an expected syntax error - _implying_
that the code above is parsed correctly...

class ThisShouldBreak: 
   decorate:
      staticmethod
   def hello(who):
      print "woo?", who

   def hello2(who):
      print "woo?", who

   def crashandburnhere(who)
      print "woo?", who

(Backtrace from the seg faults seem to point at other stuff as well,
but I don't know the python source well enough to say for certain!
I suspect the reason is because I've yanked the leading "@" more than
anything else)

There is a restriction here - the contents of the decorate block must
be limited to what you would get after an "@" - ie just declarations -
it's not a "suite" (bunch of statements).


Michael.
-- 
Michael.Sparks at rd.bbc.co.uk    
British Broadcasting Corporation, Research and Development
Kingswood Warren, Surrey KT20 6NP

This message (and any attachments) may contain personal views
which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.




From nzanella at cs.mun.ca  Wed Aug 18 17:41:46 2004
From: nzanella at cs.mun.ca (Neil Zanella)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 14:41:46 -0700
Subject: static class methods and data members
Message-ID: <b68d2f19.0408181244.39b5b562@posting.google.com>

Hello,

I would like to know whether it is possible to define static class methods
and data members in Python (similar to the way it can be done in C++ or Java).
These do not seem to be mentioned in "Learning Python" by Mark Lutz and David
Ascher. It seems like they are a relatively new feature... It seems to me that
any truly OO programming language should support these so I'm sure that Python
is no exception, but how can these be defined/implemented in Python? Currently
I have Python version 2.3 installed on my system.

Thanks,

Neil


From nothanks at nothere.com  Wed Aug 25 03:21:29 2004
From: nothanks at nothere.com (Emiliano Molina)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 07:21:29 GMT
Subject: Subclassing built-in types
Message-ID: <Z5XWc.6680$D7.6005@news-server.bigpond.net.au>

Where can I find information on how to do this?

Specifically I am concerned about something like:

class NewList(list):
	def __init__(self):
		list.__init__(self)

The above code does not allow the passing of a sequence to populate the 
NewList.

I imagine that the correct way to do it is something like:

class NewList(list):
	def __init__(self,seq):
		list.__init__(self,seq)

but I can't find any documentation that describes what arguments 
list.__init__ may take.

Where can I find that documentation?  I've looked through the manual but 
can't find anything relevant.  Google searches bring up articles that 
talk about code as described in my first example but I can't find 
anything like the second.


From dperl at rogers.com  Fri Aug 27 16:12:23 2004
From: dperl at rogers.com (Dan Perl)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:12:23 GMT
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><9%JXc.79851$pTn.63106@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<mailman.2541.1093628460.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <HAMXc.67189$UTP.8829@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>

I am using 2.3 and I tried importing from a zip file in a script of my own
and, yes, it works.

I never used the -v flag before but it's great for debugging some problems.
Thanks for mentioning it!

Dan

"Anthony Baxter" <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2541.1093628460.5135.python-list at python.org...
> Note that the PEP is not up-to-date. zipimport "just works" in Python
> 2.3 and Python 2.4. In the following example, we use the -v flag to
> show where imports are coming from.




From m_vddungen at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  6 16:34:29 2004
From: m_vddungen at yahoo.com (Marcel van den Dungen)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 13:34:29 -0700
Subject: advice for perl expert wanting to learn python
References: <slrncguga2.fcp.mordor@fly.srk.fer.hr>
Message-ID: <98862c6.0408061234.5259c76a@posting.google.com>

Zeljko Vrba <mo.dor at fly.srk.fer.hr> wrote in message news:<slrncguga2.fcp.mordor at fly.srk.fer.hr>...
> Now, why would I like to learn Python: because of IronPython port to CLR.
> Perl port to CLR doesn't seem to be coming soon. First Perl6 for Parrot has
> to be written, and then other backends..
> 
> What's the easiest way of learning python knowing perl? Is there somewhere
> a 'how-to' cookbook with parallel examples of frequent idioms in perl and
> python?
> 
See the Perl/Python phrasebook:
http://www.python.org/moin/PerlPhrasebook

-- Marcel


From amk at amk.ca  Fri Aug 27 09:16:04 2004
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 08:16:04 -0500
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgkeio$spo$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<7xhdqp967k.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<412e3ba4$0$92817$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>
	<2p7rurFhgglpU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<mailman.2501.1093581756.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <kZudnYX0-92JqbLcRVn-hQ@speakeasy.net>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:42:34 +1000, 
	Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't know what additional discussion on python-dev would have
> accomplished. Almost no-one spoke up about the @syntax when I posted
> the first note.

A similar thing happened with the various cataloging efforts.  A number of
individuals wrote prototypes and asked for comments from the community,
never getting any.  Finally Richard Jones wrote PyPI, put it on python.org, 
and contributed the 'register' Distutils subcommand to the standard library;
there was little outside input on all of this. 

Of course, the difference is that PyPI hasn't been controversial.  But I
think it does demonstrate that Python development is steered mostly by
individuals, not by the vague wishes of the community.

--amk


From davidf at sjsoft.com  Tue Aug 24 04:58:22 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:58:22 +0200
Subject: My only complaint about Python
In-Reply-To: <3flei0t87s2qpsunb94mrbfb5fc4nplnsl@4ax.com>
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<CuCdnUCvWK5XSLncRVn-jw@giganews.com>
	<sr3iv1-b5c1.ln1@eskimo.tundraware.com>
	<874qmxj81k.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>
	<3flei0t87s2qpsunb94mrbfb5fc4nplnsl@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <cgevvg$rmn$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

Andrea Griffini wrote:
> On 21 Aug 2004 08:53:59 +0200, 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de wrote:
> 
> 
>>>They do.  MSC/C++ is now available at NO cost:
>>>
>>
>>no cost is not the same as free
> 
> 
> Do you mean that there are limitations about legal use of
> VC toolkit 2003 for building a python interpreter or that
> you actually need to see the source code of the C compiler
> to build python ?

There are other benefits to open source compilers - in gcc's case, a 
specific advantage is that it can cross-compile from other operating 
systems. In certain circumstances that can be a big advantage

David


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 09:58:10 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:58:10 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <412F347E.4040602@sympatico.ca>
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.2469.1093550987.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<412F347E.4040602@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <cgnelg$1dr$1@sea.gmane.org>

Colin J. Williams wrote:
> 
> 
> Paul Morrow wrote:
> [snip]
> 
>>
>>
>> Yes, it doesn't seem all that complex, although I'm not sure that 
>> everyone reading this understands them and their subtleties.  The 
>> following is an excerpt from 
>> http://docs.python.org/tut/node11.html#SECTION0011200000000000000000
>>
>> "A namespace is a mapping from names to objects. Most namespaces are 
>> currently implemented as Python dictionaries, but that's normally not 
>> noticeable in any way (except for performance), and it may change in 
>> the future. Examples of namespaces are: the set of built-in names 
>> (functions such as abs(), and built-in exception names); the global 
>> names in a module; and the local names in a function invocation. In a 
>> sense the set of attributes of an object also form a namespace."
>>
>> When I talk about namespaces, I include all of the above, including 
>> the sense mentioned in the last line.  So an object's attributes 
>> constitute a namespace too.  Therefore __doc__, being an attribute of 
>> the function object, is in the function object's /namespace/.  And 
>> note that this is *not* a new namespace; it's been there all along.
>>
> Could you elaborate on the last sentence please?  Is the namespace not 
> created when the def ... line(s) is/are executed?
> 

If Python waits until then, where does it put the docstring in the 
meantime?  I haven't actually looked at the code [*], but it would make 
sense for the function's namespace to be created at the beginning of the 
def execution (so that it had a place for the __doc__ attribute when the 
docstring was encountered).


* Oh Anthony will want to jump on that one :-)



From martin at koekenberg.net  Wed Aug 25 16:32:28 2004
From: martin at koekenberg.net (Martin Koekenberg)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:32:28 +0200
Subject: TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'NoneType' and
	'str'
References: <dddbi0dicg77fea6lfu74v3ab03gi3fjd3@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2017.1092991372.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <3ptpi0h6i94l7c6raml10o4d3sml2e1etf@4ax.com>

Hello Steve,

That is not the problem.
gcc-3.3.3-7 and gcc-c++-3.3.3-7 are installed.

Greetings,

Martin Koekenberg
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:12:50 +0530, Steve <lonetwin at gmail.com> wrote:

>Hi Martin,
>>   File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/distutils/sysconfig.py", line 159, in
>> customize_compiler
>>     cpp = cc + " -E"           # not always
>> TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'NoneType' and 'str'
>> make: *** [build] Error 1
>
>Judging by the error I'm guessing that you might not have a c or c++
>compiler installed. Run the following command to check if you have the
>required rpms:
>
>rpm -q gcc
>rpm -q gcc-c++
>
>Install them if you they are missing and then rerun 'configure' and 'make'.
>
>HTH
>Steve



From Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU  Tue Aug 10 11:19:07 2004
From: Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU (Michael J. Fromberger)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 11:19:07 -0400
Subject: Purely emotional perspective
References: <10hf3oaltbo7o74@corp.supernews.com>
	<AYSdnQ2xPrfFPYrcRVn-iA@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1400.1092070428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<XqSdnTW-4KvRIIrcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <Michael.J.Fromberger-E20935.11190710082004@localhost>

In article <XqSdnTW-4KvRIIrcRVn-jQ at powergate.ca>,
 Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> 
> Python is clearly on a huge evolutionary surge and conservative views
> on the matter are definitely not winning out right now.  And the usual
> argument (submit a patch!) doesn't really work when those who want to
> avoid many changes try it... I've been *not* submitting a patch on
> lots of changes to Python, but somehow it's never been accepted. ;-)

I think you are right, Peter, about the pressure to change the nature of 
Python, and the resistance to conservatism about doing so.

I have been following the explosion of discussion on this subject with 
some concern, because I think this whole "decorators" proposal is a 
misguided attempt to conflate several orthogonal goals under the aegis 
of a single new mechanism.  I do not believe it is wise to aggregate the 
notations for descriptive meta-data (author, version number, etc.) with 
those of type-constraints, of method qualifiers, or any other such 
code-generation annotations.

Much of the discussion has focused on the visual appearance of this new 
construct, but I think that's a red herring -- its problems run much 
deeper than that.  Even assuming we can find a suitably harmonious 
notation for it, I remain unconvinced that "decorators" as currently 
specified deserve to be added to Python.  Assuming we take the Zen of 
Python as a set of philosophical design goals for Python, I argue that 
all the proposed uses of decorators so far fail the Zen on the following 
axes:  Beauty, Simplicity, Sparseness, Readability, Special Cases, One 
Obvious Way, and Difficulty of Explanation.

The stated Motivation of PEP-318 is, essentially, to visually conjoin 
the translation of functions into class or static methods with the 
definition of the function itself.  Oh, and by the way, maybe we could 
also use this for some other annotations we'll think up later -- but 
for now, that's pretty much it (http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0318.html).  
Do we really need this small change so badly that we're willing to open
the door to every half-baked hunk of function and method meta-data 
somebody can imagine?

Let's stop bickering about syntax for a moment, take a deep breath, and 
back up a pace.  Does Python really need this?  I say no:  Even if we 
come up with a good syntax, I do not think decorators, as they are being 
described and implemented as we speak, are a good idea.  Some of the 
ideas people want to use them for are reasonable, but I think we should 
be rational about it, and keep orthogonal concerns appropriately 
separated. 

-M

-- 
Michael J. Fromberger             | Lecturer, Dept. of Computer Science
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~sting/  | Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA


From tdelaney at avaya.com  Sun Aug 29 20:54:08 2004
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy))
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:54:08 +1000
Subject: allowing braces around suites
Message-ID: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01DCFF12@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

Igor V. Rafienko wrote:

> As a side note -- my last employer had absolutely horrible coding
> conventions. No one liked them (developers and management included).
> However, everyone had to comply, and despite an occasional nastiness,
> the bug that you illustrated could not have happened in that
> environment, because _every_ if was required to have its body within
> braces.

In C/C++/Java, that's a sensible coding convention. I won't quibble that
there may have been other ones in the coding standards that were bad,
but that specific example is not.

In Python, it's a non-issue.

Tim Delaney


From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 26 07:08:39 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 07:08:39 -0400
Subject: Why return None?
In-Reply-To: <vriXc.219829$gE.39929@pd7tw3no>
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<jt6dnb98R-eH6rDcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
	<vriXc.219829$gE.39929@pd7tw3no>
Message-ID: <Nbudneg8cfAqWbDcRVn-sA@powergate.ca>

Martin DeMello wrote:
> Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
>>By the way, the second version is much more readable than
>>the first, so perhaps there is a secondary reason for this
>>"return None" thing in addition to the more important one...
> 
> It depends on what you're doing - to me, the first is simply "the
> normalised vector (a,b,c)", inlined. It's a single concept, much like an
> inlined string is - would you want to do the following?
> a = "Hello "
> a = a + str(name)
> print a

I'd want to do neither, often.  If I had to do either, often,
I would write a function which did the required operations
and I'd call that instead.  Then both it and the calling
code are readable.  But I suppose that's just me... maybe
others would prefer to repeat things more.

-Peter


From edreamleo at charter.net  Thu Aug  5 13:35:57 2004
From: edreamleo at charter.net (Edward K. Ream)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 12:35:57 -0500
Subject: Confused about pep 318
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com><mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org><d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com><Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10h4s026oapbhf1@corp.supernews.com>

> > There had previously been no public discussions about it.

> Nonsense.

I could not disagree more.  Pretending that discussions on py-dev and
SourceForge count as truly public discussions of pep 318 is most unwise.
pep 318 does not discuss '@' at all.  People like me, with a strong interest
in how Python uses '@', would not naturally have known about the proposed
new syntax until the stuff hit the fan.

Indeed, pep 318 is grossly misleading; reading it one gets the distinct
impression that the design is far from complete.  It is my strong opinion
that _no_ public discussion of this new code has taken place, and none _can_
take place until we see what it is exactly that is being proposed.  This is
an issue of basic fairness and openness.  I have complained loudly to the
[B]DFL.  We shall see...

Edward
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Edward K. Ream   email:  edreamleo at charter.net
Leo: Literate Editor with Outlines
Leo: http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------




From crichton314 at btinternet.com  Tue Aug 17 05:23:12 2004
From: crichton314 at btinternet.com (John Crichton)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 02:23:12 -0700
Subject: music resources
References: <CObUc.124363$J06.99175@pd7tw2no>
Message-ID: <3b2846c4.0408170123.631477b6@posting.google.com>

"Elaine Jackson" <elainejackson7355 at home.com> wrote in message news:<CObUc.124363$J06.99175 at pd7tw2no>...
> Is there such a thing as an executable language for music? If not, why not? And
> if yes, where can I find it? Naturally the ideal thing would be if such a
> language were implemented within python, but I would be willing to learn a
> lesser programming language if I had a reasonable assurance that it had what I'm
> looking for. I have, of course, googled for a solution, and I may have even
> found it, but if so I didn't recognize it as such. Any pointers will be mucho
> appreciado.
> 
> Peace

"I hope these links are of some use, Elaine:

PMIDI: Python MIDI library for Windows
http://www.python.org/pypi?:action=display&name=PMIDI&version=1.0

pySonic: FMOD for Python (pySonic is a Python wrapper around the high
performance, cross platform FMOD sound library. You get all the
benefits of the FMOD library, but in a Pythonic, object oriented
package)
http://www.python.org/pypi?:action=display&name=pySonic&version=0.3

You could also have a look at Java music projects (and access them
through Jython)
http://www.softsynth.com/links/java_music.html

Best wishes,

John"


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Thu Aug 26 20:00:23 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 00:00:23 GMT
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>
	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>
	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>
	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>
	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>
	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b8ad139e.0408261420.22d14998@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <o3tsi0t18hvgnqikq2b7rrsgq224mqh5a4@4ax.com>

On 26 Aug 2004 15:20:10 -0700, jess.austin at gmail.com (Jess Austin)
wrote:

>Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list at python.org>...
>> Currently, you can change a doc string outside of a function, by 
>> modifying the function's __doc__ attribute
>
>[snip]
>
>> IMO, to change it inside of a function def should be (but isn't) as easy 
>> as...
>> 
>>    >>> def foo():
>>    ...     """ I am foo """
>>    ...     __doc__ = __doc__ + 'indeed'
>
>I'm not trying to be mean, but why not use a class for this?  

I believe he was only being illustrative.

My use case:
(unless I'm being stupid)

IDLE 1.0.3      
>>>class foo:
              hint ="boo"
	def bar(self):
		"bar using %s" %hint
		pass

	
>>> f=foo()
>>> print f.bar.__doc__
None

vs.

>>> class foo:
	hint ="boo"
	def bar(self):
		pass
	bar.__doc__="bar using %s" %hint

	
>>> f=foo()
>>> print f.bar.__doc__
bar using boo


But to me more important, in the context of the overall discussion, is
in seeing some good connectedness between the problem of being forced
outside and below the function to use string substitution on its
docstring, and the limited range of options that seem to be available
to try to solve the percieved syntax problems related to
transformations (pre a2) being stuck outside and below.

Is the apparent connectedness only skin deep?  

It's not making sense to me that is.

Art 



From jeffrey at fro.man  Sat Aug 14 13:45:21 2004
From: jeffrey at fro.man (Jeffrey Froman)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:45:21 -0700
Subject: Practical examples 
References: <mailman.1656.1092498793.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <TeidnYzydr8v0oPcRVn-tw@cablespeedwa.com>

Bigbowser wrote:

> I'm new to python, and have read through
> http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/thinkCSpy/ , and now I'm
> looking for some simple programs to have a read
> through and other more in-depth tutorials to have a
> look at.

Here's a nice site full of examples:

http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Python/Cookbook/

Jeffrey


From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 12 20:22:01 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 20:22:01 -0400
Subject: Why I love python.
In-Reply-To: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <411c09aa$1@nntp.zianet.com>

Michael Scarlett wrote:
> I don't know about the rest of you, but I learned python and fell in
> love with its syntax and simplicity.

That's the funny thing about Python. It really isn't simple, but it sure 
seems like it is. There's tons of little niggling rules about scoping, 
inheritance, and what have you--but you can be blissfully ignorant of 
most of them and still get work done. That's pretty unique.

I think that's why people are so concerned about @pie: it has the 
*potential* to be an obstacle early in the learning process, instead of 
after someone is already hooked.

> Am i the only one with a visceral reaction to this thing???

Goodness, no! Why do you think we've all been pissing and moaning so much?

   -- Mark


From 1stpoint at zmailbox.net  Thu Aug  5 12:31:17 2004
From: 1stpoint at zmailbox.net (1stpoint)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 12:31:17 -0400
Subject: Automated Address/Phone Lookup
Message-ID: <d60ef52959ec9fa4a38e2fbf04fbf629@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>

I have a requirement to take a flat file of name , state and county and
perform a 'people search' returning the hits for each name.  Has anyone
developed a python 'bot' to do a phone lookup from the web and return the
results?



From rkern at ucsd.edu  Tue Aug 17 21:47:15 2004
From: rkern at ucsd.edu (Robert Kern)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 20:47:15 -0500
Subject: what wrong with this program?
In-Reply-To: <8f17f4bc.0408171632.787eb6f8@posting.google.com>
References: <8f17f4bc.0408171632.787eb6f8@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfucf3$est$1@news1.ucsd.edu>

Ali wrote:

> The following program is supposed to display a dropdown menu, however,
> it only shows the File and Help things.
> 
> from Tkinter import *
> 
> root = Tk()
> 
> #create menu
> m = Menu(root)
> root.config(menu=m)
> 
> filemenu = Menu(m)
> m.add_cascade(label="File", menu="filemenu")

The menu= argument needs to be the object itself, not a string.

See, e.g.

http://www.pythonware.com/library/tkinter/introduction/x5819-patterns.htm

-- 
Robert Kern
rkern at ucsd.edu

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
  Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
   -- Richard Harter


From calidusdk at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 23 15:13:52 2004
From: calidusdk at hotmail.com (Artemisio)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 12:13:52 -0700
Subject: line shift?  (baby steps 2)
References: <6daa8765.0408230412.6db365d6@posting.google.com>
	<2oueokFe36qgU2@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <6daa8765.0408231113.2e4a43d1@posting.google.com>

Reinhold Birkenfeld <reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net> wrote in message news:<2oueokFe36qgU2 at uni-berlin.de>...
> Artemisio wrote:
> > I have done a small currency calculator. It works and I'm very glad.
> > But...I'd like to have a line shift if user types a wrong choice.
> > Please, look at the code and output example down here:
> > 
> > # -*- coding: ISO-8859-1 -*-
> > import string
> > 
> > eudk_currency= 7.47
> > dkeu_currency= 0.13
> > usdk_currency= 5.93
> > dkus_currency= 0.16
> > euus_currency= 1.19
> > useu_currency= 0.78
> 
> As a hint not pertaining to your actual problem: Use a dictionary to
> store the values, like this:
> 
> currencies = { "EUDK" : 7.47, "DKEU" : 0.13, (...) }
> 
> Then you do not have to do if statements like this
> 
> if currency_str == "DKEU":
>     result= amount_int* dkeu_currency
>     print amount_int, "Danish Crowns correspond to", result, "Euro."
> 
> (...)
> 
> You can directly use the input string as index into the dictionary:
> 
> result = amount_int * currencies[currency_str]
> print (...)
> 
> Reinhold

Great! Thank you pals! I'll have a closer look to your suggestion
Reinhold, it seems a slick way to do the same thing


From justme at fakedomain.net  Thu Aug 26 19:47:39 2004
From: justme at fakedomain.net (MPB)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 23:47:39 GMT
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <opsdc5ppi854150k@pls026981.mw.nos.boeing.com>

Who let that idiot back in?

On 25 Aug 2004 14:56:06 -0700, Xah Lee <xah at xahlee.org> wrote:

> Larry Wall and Cults
> (Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
...
>  Xah
>  xah at xahlee.org
>  http://xahlee.org/PageTwo_dir/more.html


From vincent_delft at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 22 03:30:08 2004
From: vincent_delft at yahoo.com (vincent_delft at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:30:08 +0200
Subject: zipfile module: problems with filename having non ascii
	characters
References: <4127a6d7$0$4090$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be>
	<mailman.2122.1093122795.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <41284ac0$0$3551$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be>

Jeff Epler wrote:

> Zip files don't have a way to define the encoding of filenames---names
> are just byte strings, and different utilities may interpret them in
> different ways.  The only thing that seems to be defined is that '/' is
> the directory separator, and possibly that the filename can't contain
> '\0'.
> 

Thanks, I've got the problem and replace all "\" to "/".


> You can probably find the encoding that winzip uses with a little
> trial-and-error, and convert your filenames in your encoding to
> filenames in that encoding.  This may depend on the language or region
> of the installed Windows, though.
> 

Thanks for the explanation.

That limitation is only valid for zip files ?
Is there an another "compression tool" that don't have such limitation
(tgz? , bz2? , ????




From bokr at oz.net  Fri Aug  6 16:19:56 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 20:19:56 GMT
Subject: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was Decorator syntax)
References: <6LWdnZCpvI7Ico_cRVn-hw@giganews.com>
	<VJCdnUtOZ_wN5Y7cRVn-vg@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <cf0p5c$64v$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 08:24:47 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:

>Istvan Albert wrote:
>
>> Paul McGuire wrote:
>> 
>>  > Please reconsider the "def f() [classmethod]:" construct.  
>>  >
>>  > def f() [ staticmethod,
>>  >     synchronized,
>>  >     alphabetized,
>>  >     supersized,
>>  >     returns('d') ]:
>
>Nobody has bothered to post an example with a long argument list,
>thus ignoring the possibly valid claim in the PEP that this would
>make the decorator list hard to see.  Here goes:
>
>     def someMethod(self, posArgOne, anotherArg,
>         fieldX=56,
>         x=5, y=7, z=9,
>         **kwargs)
>         [
>         staticmethod,
>         synchronized,
>         alphabetized,
>         supersized,
>         returns('d')
>         ]:
>
>Okay, pretty much an abomination, but I'm not sure it's any worse than
>the alternative with @:
>
>     @staticmethod
>     @synchronized
>     @alphabetized
>     @supersized
>     @returns('d')
>     def someMethod(self, posArgOne, anotherArg,
>         fieldX=56,
>         x=5, y=7, z=9,
>         **kwargs):
>
>It *is*, however, fairly clear that the list of decorators becomes
>harder to see.  Without checking, it's definitely possible that the
>decorator list in the first case is actually part of the argument list.
>
It seems to me that all the proposed syntaxes have in common the purpose
of creating an ordered set of functions to be applied in order to the
result of a def. Why not accept this and use a builtin object to hold
the temporary function sequence? Thus you could have a method (or __call__)
add one or more functions to the temporary set contained in the builtin object.

Then the list of functions can be the argument list to a method of the builtin
object instead of list syntax magically interpreted in list-after-def context,
magically saving the sequence in a magic internal place (as opposed to programmer-known
and overrideable). If you had a builtin object and a builtin userfriendly
alias for a method that adds one or more decorators to its list (that gets used
up at the end of the next def), then you could write (picking decorate as user-friendly ;-)

      decorate(staticmethod, synchronized, alphabetized, supersized)
      decorate(returns('d'))
      def someMethod(self, posArgOne, anotherArg,
          fieldX=56,
          x=5, y=7, z=9,
          **kwargs
      ):                   #I like it better here for multiline arg lists ;-)
          # ...

def implementation would have to be modified to look for the builtin object
and get the decorator functions from there. You could choose to look for
a shadowing name binding starting with locals(), or you could only allow
a shadowing starting at globals() I suppose, for speed.

BTW, is @decorator thread-safe? I guess it would be something to be careful
about in a really dynamic object-oriented implementation.

>I don't care.  I still prefer it to @, if nothing else because
>it's much more intuitive to a Python programmer what order they
>will be applied in.
>
'@x' as a spelling of
__programmer_inaccessible_hidden_system_temp_list.append(x) # or is it 'x' ?
seems not the best use of '@' to me.

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Fri Aug 27 00:13:48 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:13:48 +1000
Subject: key storage
In-Reply-To: <7x7jrl9tmx.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
References: <1093569139.412e8a738462b@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
	<412E8E53.20203@harvee.org>
	<mailman.2491.1093572685.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7x7jrl9tmx.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <1093580028.412eb4fca7eab@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>


--
Ajay Brar,
CS Honours 2004
Smart Internet Technology Research Group


Quoting Paul Rubin <"http://phr.cx"@NOSPAM.invalid>:

> Ajay <abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au> writes:
> > the MIT paper mentions including HMAC's in the cookie and so on. the
> > question still is - how are the keys stored? HMAC's require a key, as
> do
> > digital signatures. how are all these keys stored in a secure manner
> on
> > the server? obviously they's be encrypted but then the key used for
> > encrypting the above key - how is that stored?
>
> Well, just what are you trying to protect?  Access to the application
> and its data?  What happens if you just put the key in a disk file?
> If someone can get at it, can't they also get at the rest of the data,
> so the key is no longer helping protect that data?  Who are you trying
> to keep the key secret from?
> --

well i am really trying to restruct access to certain users. session
management is done using a cookie, and the cookie includes a key hashed
digest of the rest of the cookie data. so thats the first key. the second
key is the private key used to sign documents which users can download
from the site. so its basically access to the application that i am trying
to protect.
i dont intend to put the key in an unencrypted form on a file and leave it
there - and hence my question. and the best answer so far has been some
sort of proxy service activated using a passphrase which deciphers a
passphrase encrypted file and reads keys from there. a second option may
be a similar service which is started by an admin and reads keys from the
file. the file can then be removed from the server and the keys stay in
memory. my app can then request the keys from the proxy.
ofcourse this then involves ensuring authroized access only to the proxy
and whole new set of mechanisms to prevent unauthorized access to the
proxy.
any more suggestions are most welcome.

cheers

> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From grv575 at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 25 20:16:31 2004
From: grv575 at hotmail.com (grv575)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 17:16:31 -0700
Subject: numarray speed question
References: <953AD3D0Didtoken@128.91.2.239>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408040845120.27254-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<953C4DD4idtoken@128.91.2.239>
	<qnkr7qluxuy.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
	<144d0df.0408070828.338f8c19@posting.google.com>
	<qnkn015ujoh.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
	<9540516Didtoken@128.91.2.239>
	<qnkisbrv8r9.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
Message-ID: <144d0df.0408251616.5758d6e7@posting.google.com>

Is it true that python uses doubles for all it's internal floating
point arithmetic even if you're using something like numarray's
Complex32?  Is it possible to do single precision ffts in numarray or
no?

cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca (David M. Cooke) wrote in message news:<qnkisbrv8r9.fsf at arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>...
> At some point, grv575 at hotmail.com (grv) wrote:
> 
> > cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca (David M. Cooke) wrote in 
> > <qnkn015ujoh.fsf at arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>:
> >
> >>At some point, grv575 at hotmail.com (grv575) wrote:
>  
> >>> Heh.  Try timing the example I gave (a += 5) using byteswapped vs.
> >>> byteswap().  It's fairly fast to do the byteswap.  If you go the
> >>> interpretation way (byteswapped) then all subsequent array operations
> >>> are at least an order of magnitude slower (5 million elements test
> >>> example).
> >>
> >>You mean something like
> >>a = arange(0, 5000000, type=Float64).byteswapped()
> >>a += 5
> >>
> >>vs.
> >>a = arange(0, 5000000, type=Float64)
> >>a.byteswap()
> >>a += 5
> >>
> >>? I get the same time for the a+=5 in each case -- and it's only twice
> >>as slow as operating on a non-byteswapped version. Note that numarray
> >>calls the ufunc add routine with non-byteswapped numbers; it takes a
> >>block, orders it correctly, then adds 5 to that, does the byteswap on
> >>the result, and stores that back. (You're not making a full copy of
> >>the array; just a large enough section at a time to do useful work.)
> >
> > It must be using some sort of cache for the multiplication.  Seems like on 
> > the first run it takes 6 seconds and subsequently .05 seconds for either 
> > version.
> 
> There is. The ufunc for the addition gets cached, so the first time
> takes longer (but not that much???)
> 
> >>Maybe what you need is a package designed for *small* arrays ( < 1000).
> >>Simple C wrappers; just C doubles and ints, no byteswap, non-aligned.
> >>Maybe a fixed number of dimensions. Probably easy to throw something
> >>together using Pyrex. Or, wrap blitz++ with boost::python.
> >
> > I'll check out Numeric first.  Would rather have a drop-in solution (which 
> > hopefully will get more optimized in future releases) rather than hacking 
> > my own wrappers.  Is it some purist mentality that's keeping numarray from 
> > dropping to C code for the time-critical routines?  Or can a lot of the 
> > speed issues be attributed to the overhead of using objects for the library 
> > (numarray does seem more general)?
> 
> It's the object overhead in numarray. The developers moved stuff up to
> Python, where it's more flexible to handle. Numeric is faster for
> small arrays (say < 3000), but numarray is much better at large
> arrays. I have some speed comparisions at
> http://arbutus.mcmaster.ca/dmc/numpy/
> 
> I did a simple wrapper using Pyrex the other night for a vector of
> doubles (it just does addition, so it's not much good :-) It's twice
> as fast as Numeric, so I might give it a further try.


From gohaku at earthlink.net  Thu Aug 12 22:08:25 2004
From: gohaku at earthlink.net (gohaku)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:08:25 -0400
Subject: multiline snippets with triple quotes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121559220.11006-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
References: <cfgff0$p3o$1@online.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121559220.11006-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <A8EA746E-ECCD-11D8-A65A-000A9574CFD8@earthlink.net>


On Aug 12, 2004, at 4:06 PM, Christopher T King wrote:

> The textwrap.dedent() function is provided for just this purpose:
>
>  from textwrap import dedent
>
>  if output == html:
>      snip =  dedent('''\
>                      <html>
>                      <head><title>Hello, World</title></head>
>                      <body bgcolor="aqua"><h1>What's up?</h1>
>                      </html>''')
>  else:
>      snip = 'Hello!'
Can dedent capture indents or tabs also...
I noticed that if I do the following:
snip = '''<html>blah blah
			</html>'''
Tabs are included with snip.

Is there a heredocs (don't know why it's called that) equivalent in 
Python?

Thanks in advance.



From news at nospamwillmcgugan.com  Tue Aug 17 09:08:16 2004
From: news at nospamwillmcgugan.com (Will McGugan)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:08:16 +0100
Subject: os popen problems in w98
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1784.1092740422.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1784.1092740422.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <41220342$0$198$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>

fowlertrainer at anonym.hu wrote:
> Hi !
> 
> I use this code section in my program:
> 
>    cho,chi=os.popen2(os.getcwd()+'/genlotto.py')
> 
>    genlotto=chi.read()
> 
>    genlotto=genlotto.strip()[1:-1]
> 
> This code is working on wxp, and w2000.
> I use that code to load a subprogram's result.
> 
> In Win98 it is hanged, and is nothing happened.
> 
> Why ? What I do wrong ?
> 
> Thanx for help:
> FT

Just a guess, but I've noticed from C++ work that Win98 doesnt like the 
mixing of / and \ in urls. Try changing '/genlotto.py' to '\genlottor.py'.


Will McGugan


From swheatley at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 13:56:01 2004
From: swheatley at gmail.com (Shawn Wheatley)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:56:01 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Flython?
In-Reply-To: <ad37863d04081610001448b827@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
	<411cbcb1$0$3894$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>
	<W9qdnWhf8u7MI4HcRVn-ow@powergate.ca>
	<30260531.0408131856.5ef3b0d3@posting.google.com>
	<sMednfL4zqTR3b3cRVn-rA@powergate.ca> <2oc547F86br8U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<ad37863d04081610001448b827@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ad37863d04081610561e41b724@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:21:03 -0400, Daniel Ellison <daniel at syrinx.net> wrote:

> Peter has on occasion been the unfortunate audience of my rants on the
> current state of web application interfaces. I've been pushing the idea
> of a Flash client for years. There seems to be (there *is*) a prejudice
> toward Flash, probably due to those *very* annoying ads on web pages.

[OT]
Another rant that I hear frequently is the accessibility issue...
older versions of Flash were very difficult to work with in terms of
making your application accessible to handicapped users.  From what
I've heard, Flash MX and onward have fixed this problem.  Anybody care
to comment?

Shawn


From b.niemann at betternet.de  Thu Aug 12 07:17:39 2004
From: b.niemann at betternet.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:17:39 +0200
Subject: Mod python with multipart
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1557.1092305178.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1557.1092305178.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cffjf5$euv$1@online.de>

> Does anyone know how to read the "multipart/form-data" posted by a form? 
> I'm using mod_python 3.1 and Apache 2.
> I looked at the docs of the request object but there is no description 
> on how to read multipart data.
> I also tried google with "modpython multipart" but there are only a few 
> hits - I could not use them.
this is a question for the mod_python ML, but anyway ;)
I'm using

data = cgi.FieldStorage(fp=req,
   headers=req.headers_in,
   keep_blank_values=True,
   environ={'REQUEST_METHOD':'POST'})

which works fine for me. Later I've seen that mod_python has it's own 
implementation of FieldStorage, but I have not tried it yet.


From apavluck at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 22:42:00 2004
From: apavluck at gmail.com (Alex  Pavluck)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 19:42:00 -0700
Subject: Help needed: Transition from SAS to PYTHON
Message-ID: <cgjilo$sit@odak26.prod.google.com>

Hello.  I am trying to teach myself PYTHON because I am interested in
programming.  I use SAS all day and I really like the way you can
highlight code and submit just that section or submit the entire
program without having to save it.  Can you do this in PYTHON?  Also,
does PYTHON (Windows) log errors?  It would be helpful when I am
writting a program and I submit the code and it says that their is an
error to know WHERE!  Once again this is another feature of SAS.  Have
I just gotten too used to SAS or are there others out there that would
also like to have this functionality??

Please help!

Alex



From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug 16 01:07:04 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 05:07:04 GMT
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1637.1092428855.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<30260531.0408131853.18ec2446@posting.google.com>
	<LIqdnd7Jz9Mspr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <412040f8$0$8087$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-16, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:

> Please, *why* did it put you off?

Dunno, it just did.

It seems to me that you're asking for a rational explanation
for an emotional response.  It's like asking somebody "*why*
don't you like pickled beets?" The answer you get is "I just
don't." Perhaps they're just too different from what you're
used to eating.  Perhaps there's something bad in your past
associated with beets.  It doesn't really matter, since it's
not a reasoned, rational reaction.

> Didn't you already indent your code consistently?

Sure.

> Didn't you think that the removal of those braces would
> immediately make the code more readable (fewer lines, fewer
> extra cruft to distract the eye) and easier to type?

Sure.

> I'm curious why more people don't have "neat!" as their very
> first thought on encountering this, rather than "yuck!".

It's a good question, but based on my extensive background of 3
undergrad psych classes, I don't think you're going to get
accurate answers from the people experiencing the reactions.

I think my negative reaction was because my only previous
encounters with intentation significance was with Fortan IV and
with Makefiles.  I find dealing with both of those unpleasant
(though I've gotten used to Makefiles over a period of 20+
years, I still trip of the "tab" thing several times a month --
at least Gnu make is kind enough to tell you exactly what you
did wrong).

In my case, I desperately needed a way to fetch e-mails from
MS-Outlook, and writing a Python program looked like my only
shot.  So I went ahead and tried it.  Within a few hours, I
discovered I liked Python way of indentation.  Now, with the
exception of the occasional shell script, I use Python for
everything that's not embedded or in kernel space.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Dizzy, are we
                                  at               "REAL PEOPLE" or "AMAZING
                               visi.com            ANIMALS"?


From nospamjynyl at yahoo.co.nz  Tue Aug  3 15:19:06 2004
From: nospamjynyl at yahoo.co.nz (Peter)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 07:19:06 +1200
Subject: PyQt - clear widget for redraw
References: <410b4492@news.maxnet.co.nz> <ceg1gk$e0b$03$1@news.t-online.com>
	<410bf265@news.maxnet.co.nz> <ceiidi$u4k$05$1@news.t-online.com>
	<410d0699@news.maxnet.co.nz> <celo8g$bbf$06$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <410fad7d@news.maxnet.co.nz>

Diez B. Roggisch wrote:
> Maybe it helps to put your sleep not in the drawing code, but between the
> arrival of different data sets to draw, thus limiting the redraws to an
> amount of lets say 10/s.

Yes - tried that, but gives incomplete draw / flicker.
 
> If you'd fill us in with some more details, the suggestions might be
> better. And I think it would be worth asking these qustions on the PyKDE
> list Jim has mentioned - I'm also there :)

More details:
the idea is to provide a graphics demo of sort algorithms for my 13 year old
son.  A number of lines of differring lengths are shown on the screen, and
you can watch as these are sorted, step by step.  So you can see the
difference between bubble sort, ripple sort, etc.
Code copied below.
Improving the smoothness of the display is the main thing I'm after.
Also, how can I write the counters to the form?  It uses the LCD widget now,
but there must be another way.

TIA

Peter

-- sort1.py ---
#!/usr/bin/python
#
# demo of sort algorithms, using PyQt

import sys, random, time
from qt import *

from frmtest import frmTest

class dlgForm(frmTest):

    def __init__(self, parent=None):
        frmTest.__init__(self, parent)
        self.connect(self.cmdQuit, SIGNAL("clicked()"),self,
SLOT("close()"))
        self.connect(self.cmd2, SIGNAL("clicked()"), self.reshuffle)
        self.connect(self.cmdSort, SIGNAL("clicked()"), self.sort1)
        self.connect(self.cmdBubble, SIGNAL("clicked()"), self.bubble)
        self.connect(self.cmdRipple, SIGNAL("clicked()"), self.ripple)
        self.connect(self.cmdShell, SIGNAL("clicked()"), self.shells)
        self.refresh()

    def reshuffle(self):
        global cComp, cSwap, b1, b2, r1, r2
        cComp, cSwap, b1, b2 = [0,0,0,len(l1)]
        random.shuffle(l1)
        self.refresh()
    
    def sort1(self):
        global cComp, cSwap, b1, b2, r1, r2
        cComp, cSwap, b1, b2 = [0,0,0,len(l1)]
        l1.sort()
        self.refresh()
    
    def bubble(self):            # simple bubble sort
        global cComp, cSwap, b1, b2, r1, r2
        cComp, cSwap, b1, b2 = [0,0,0,len(l1)]
        b1 = 0
        b2 = len(l1)
        for i in range(len(l1)):
            b2 = len(l1) - i
            for j in range(b2-1):
                cComp = cComp + 1
                r1 = j
                r2 = j+1
                if l1[r1] > l1[r2]:
                    cSwap = cSwap + 1
                    l1[r1], l1[r2] = [l1[r2], l1[r1]]
                self.refresh()
                time.sleep(0.02)
    
    def ripple(self):
        global cComp, cSwap, b1, b2, r1, r2
        cComp, cSwap, b1, b2 = [0,0,0,len(l1)]
        bDone =1
        while bDone:
            bDone = 0
            for j in range(b1,b2-1):
                cComp = cComp + 1
                r1 = j
                r2 = j + 1
                if l1[r1] > l1[r2]:
                    cSwap = cSwap + 1
                    bDone = 1
                    l1[r1], l1[r2] = [l1[r2], l1[r1]]
                self.refresh()
                time.sleep(0.01)
            b2 = b2 - 1
            for j in range(b2,b1,-1):
                cComp = cComp + 1
                r1 = j - 1
                r2 = j
                if l1[r1] > l1[r2]:
                    cSwap = cSwap + 1
                    bDone = 1
                    l1[r1], l1[r2] = [l1[r2], l1[r1]]
                self.refresh()
                time.sleep(0.01)
            b1 = b1 + 1
        self.refresh()
    
    def shells(self):
        global cComp, cSwap, b1, b2, r1, r2
        cComp, cSwap, b1, b2 = [0,0, 0, len(l1)]
        bDone = 1
        span = 64
        while bDone:
            bDone = 0
            for i in range(b1,b2-span):
                r1 = i
                r2 = i + span
                cComp = cComp + 1
                if l1[r1] > l1[r2]:
                    cSwap = cSwap + 1
                    bDone = 1
                    l1[r1], l1[r2] = [l1[r2], l1[r1]]
                self.refresh()
                time.sleep(0.01)
            
            if not bDone:     # if no changes that sweep, exit
                break
            bDone = 0
            if span > 1:
                span = int(span/2)
                
            for i in range(b2-1,b1+span,-1):
                r1 = i - span
                r2 = i
                cComp = cComp + 1
                if l1[r1] > l1[r2]:
                    cSwap = cSwap + 1
                    bDone = 1
                    l1[r1], l1[r2] = [l1[r2], l1[r1]]
                self.refresh()
                time.sleep(0.01)
            if span > 1:
                span = int(span/2)
        self.refresh()
    
    def refresh(self):
        self.LCDcount.display('%3d' % cComp)    # update counters
        self.LCDswap.display('%3d' % cSwap)
        self.frame4.erase()                      # clear any old lines
        p = QPainter(self.frame4)
        mar = self.frame4.width()/100            # margin
        vsp = 2                                  # vertical spacing
        hrz = (self.frame4.width()-2*mar)/100    # horizontal scalar
        p.setPen(QColor("black"))
        for i in range(100):
            p.drawLine(mar,mar+vsp*i,hrz*(l1[i]+1),mar+vsp*i)
        p.setPen(QColor("blue"))
        p.drawLine(mar,mar+vsp*b1-1,hrz*100,mar+vsp*b1-1)
        p.drawLine(mar,mar+vsp*b2-1,hrz*100,mar+vsp*b2-1)
        p.setPen(QColor("red"))
        p.drawLine(mar,mar+vsp*r1+1,hrz*100,mar+vsp*r1+1)
        p.drawLine(mar,mar+vsp*r2+1,hrz*100,mar+vsp*r2+1)

if __name__ == '__main__':
    l1 = range(100)   # numbers 0 to 99
    b1 = 0            # blue line 1
    b2 = 100          # blue line 2
    r1 = 1            # red line 1
    r2 = 1            # red line 2
    cComp = 0         # count of compares
    cSwap = 0         # count of swaps
    app = QApplication(sys.argv)
    QObject.connect(app, SIGNAL('lastWindowClosed()'),
                    app, SLOT('quit()'))
    win = dlgForm()
    app.setMainWidget(win)
    win.show()
    app.exec_loop()
-------------------------------------------------------


-------- frmtest.py  --------------------------
# -*- coding: utf-8 -*-
# Form implementation generated from reading ui file 'frmtest.ui'
#
# Created: Sun Aug 1 15:55:11 2004
#      by: The PyQt User Interface Compiler (pyuic) 3.8
#
# WARNING! All changes made in this file will be lost!

from qt import *

class frmTest(QMainWindow):
    def __init__(self,parent = None,name = None,fl = 0):
        QMainWindow.__init__(self,parent,name,fl)
        self.statusBar()

        if not name:
            self.setName("frmTest")

        self.setCentralWidget(QWidget(self,"qt_central_widget"))

        self.frame4 = QFrame(self.centralWidget(),"frame4")
        self.frame4.setGeometry(QRect(40,109,441,210))
        self.frame4.setMinimumSize(QSize(440,210))
        self.frame4.setFrameShape(QFrame.StyledPanel)
        self.frame4.setFrameShadow(QFrame.Raised)
        self.frame4.setMargin(1)

        self.cmd2 = QPushButton(self.centralWidget(),"cmd2")
        self.cmd2.setGeometry(QRect(210,330,100,50))

        self.cmdSort = QPushButton(self.centralWidget(),"cmdSort")
        self.cmdSort.setGeometry(QRect(350,330,100,50))

        self.cmdQuit = QPushButton(self.centralWidget(),"cmdQuit")
        self.cmdQuit.setGeometry(QRect(70,330,100,50))

        self.txtHello = QLabel(self.centralWidget(),"txtHello")
        self.txtHello.setGeometry(QRect(50,20,450,76))
        txtHello_font = QFont(self.txtHello.font())
        txtHello_font.setPointSize(48)
        self.txtHello.setFont(txtHello_font)
        self.txtHello.setAlignment(QLabel.AlignCenter)

        self.cmdBubble = QPushButton(self.centralWidget(),"cmdBubble")
        self.cmdBubble.setGeometry(QRect(500,109,80,40))

        self.cmdRipple = QPushButton(self.centralWidget(),"cmdRipple")
        self.cmdRipple.setGeometry(QRect(500,160,80,40))

        self.cmdShell = QPushButton(self.centralWidget(),"cmdShell")
        self.cmdShell.setGeometry(QRect(500,210,80,40))

        self.txtCopyright = QLabel(self.centralWidget(),"txtCopyright")
        self.txtCopyright.setGeometry(QRect(40,380,400,21))

        self.LCDswap = QLCDNumber(self.centralWidget(),"LCDswap")
        self.LCDswap.setGeometry(QRect(490,370,91,31))
        self.LCDswap.setSegmentStyle(QLCDNumber.Flat)

        self.LCDcount = QLCDNumber(self.centralWidget(),"LCDcount")
        self.LCDcount.setGeometry(QRect(490,329,91,31))
        self.LCDcount.setMode(QLCDNumber.Dec)
        self.LCDcount.setSegmentStyle(QLCDNumber.Flat)

        self.languageChange()

        self.resize(QSize(603,438).expandedTo(self.minimumSizeHint()))
        self.clearWState(Qt.WState_Polished)

    def languageChange(self):
        self.setCaption(self.__tr("test form"))
        self.cmd2.setText(self.__tr("Reshuffle"))
        self.cmdSort.setText(self.__tr("Sort"))
        self.cmdQuit.setText(self.__tr("Quit"))
        self.txtHello.setText(self.__tr("Sort Demo"))
        self.cmdBubble.setText(self.__tr("Bubble"))
        self.cmdRipple.setText(self.__tr("Ripple"))
        self.cmdShell.setText(self.__tr("Shell"))
        self.txtCopyright.setText(self.__tr("Copyright 2004 GPL Peter"))

    def __tr(self,s,c = None):
        return qApp.translate("frmTest",s,c)
---------------------------------------------------------







From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Fri Aug  6 08:37:02 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 08:37:02 -0400
Subject: Proposed improved decorator syntax
References: <1091753696.4112d6e06ea9e@webmail.oregonstate.edu><1091564446.20040805213345@MailBlocks.com>
	<mailman.1248.1091763229.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10h6ur4dp6ldu5b@news.supernews.com>

"Bruce Eckel" <BruceEckel at MailBlocks.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1248.1091763229.5135.python-list at python.org...
>
> Thursday, August 5, 2004, 6:54:56 PM, barnesc at engr.orst.edu wrote:
>
> > Recognize that we're *really* trying to create function metadata. A more
> > flexible solution is to make a metadata dictionary be part of function
and
> > class definitions.  Then 'decorator' simply becomes one name among many
> > different metadata names.
>
> I have to say I find this argument compelling. I can't say whether the
> syntax works well, but if the fundamental problem is metadata, then
> solving that in a way that solves all aspects of metadata is
> desireable.

The trouble is that the original issue was not metadata. It was that
a lot of people found the 'classmethod' and 'staticmethod' built-in
functions both ugly and too easy to overlook.

These functions (together with the 'property' built-in) in fact
create new objects (descriptors) and return them; the original object
becomes
an attribute of the new object. In other words, it's somewhat similar
to the decorator design pattern, hence the name.

In these cases, it's not a matter of metadata. I suppose one could
implement class and static methods in terms of metadata, but this
would add another dictionary lookup to an already barouque
function/method call process.

One can also use this facility to insert metadata into the function
object, but again it's simply syntax sugar for an already existing
capability.

> That said, I observe that this seems to be a fairly new topic for
> many, including myself; I have some grasp of Java's metadata facility
> and less of C#'s (although I understand C#'s to be more limiting than
> Java's) and I have not read anything terribly in-depth about either.
> It reminds me of my first exposure to C++ templates many years ago --
> it seemed like there was a lot more to it than meets the eye, but it
> took me years to really start to grasp what it was about (by
> understanding latent typing via python).

There's actually a lot less to metadata than meets the eye. The
basic fact about metadata is that it's data about the program that
makes sense to outside tools that are processing the program.
It may also make sense to routines within the program that
deal with other parts of the program on a meta level - the
typical user of the language's reflection facility.
In other words, you have to know the tool a particular piece
of metadata is directed toward in order to know what it means.

On the other hand, there is a lot to creating a really useful
metadata facility. I may want metadata for more than one
tool in the same program, and I may also want metadata
that is more structured than a simple key:value pair.

I'm not all that familiar with the metadata facilities in either Java
or C#, so I may be wrong by saying that the designers
copped out of dealing with these issues. You can see the
same issue in Python programs when you have various
tools squabbling over who owns the docstrings.

> One thing that has come up in Java is that metadata has been suggested
> for use in implementing a version of aspect-oriented programming,
> another feature I've been struggling to understand. The one thing
> about aspects that has occurred to me is that macros seem to be trying
> to solve a similar problem (changing code behavior across the code
> base), as do metaclasses. Same problem, very different approaches and
> degrees of effectiveness. Things like the implementation of
> 'synchronized' is more aspecty than it is metadata; it is implementing
> behavior changes rather than just attaching information to something
> (the original intent of metadata; in Java you must generally write
> additional code in order to add behavior based on a metadata tag).

When someone wants a facility badly enough, there is a tendency
to abuse other facilities to get it. This is why people seem to
see "metadata" in the decorator proposal, and it's also why people
seem to want to abuse anything in sight to get AOP functionality.

> I suppose the question, then, is this: what is the true intent of
> decorators? Is it for code behavior change, or metadata, or both? If
> it is for code behavior change, how do I hook into that with my own
> code; if I wanted to implement, for example, logging upon entry and
> exit of a method (the classic AOP example) or to begin and end a
> transaction upon entry and exit of a method?

As I said above, the original intent was to provide syntax for
the existing classmethod and staticmethod built-in functions.
In other words it's a behavior change.

There are a number of AOP packages out there. They're all
based on descriptors, at least as far as I know. It would
certainly be possible to re-implement them in terms of this
syntax proposal, but it brings no new functionality to the
table - it's just syntax sugar.

> For that matter, should we limit the syntax of decorators to always
> being at the beginning of a method? True aspects allow you to put a
> cutpoint at any point in a method; perhaps decorators shouldn't be
> restricted (even if we choose not to implement these ideas right
> away).

It depends on what you mean by a decorator. If you're talking
about the function that is invoked by the syntax, think in terms
of the already existing classmethod, staticmethod and property
built-in functions. They are usually invoked when the class is
being created (during import time), and result in a descriptor
being bound to the identifier rather than the original function.
The original function becomes a property of the descriptor.

The descriptor is not invoked at the beginning of a method.
A descriptor is invoked instead of the original method (a
consequence of the descriptor being the object bound to the
identifier rather than the original method). It can then invoke the original
method at any place in its process it finds suitable, including
completely ignoring it (probably a programming error!)

> These issues are tricky but they could be very powerful. And this
> conversation is sounding an awfully lot like some of the language
> design stuff that happened in the C++ committee. Some members decried
> this, saying that the committee should only be codifying existing
> features, but I think it was very necessary for these things to be
> tried, even if they didn't always work out.

It's a lot less tricky than it seems.

> And I think we may be at a point where only experimentation will tell
> us what works and where this thing needs to go. No one has enough
> experience with it -- although some might argue that this is the
> reason we shouldn't put it in at all, I think that it means we need to
> try something out and iterate as we learn.

Descriptors (which is what this is based on) have been around
since release 2.2. All this proposal does is provide syntax for
creating and installing descriptors. There is nothing in this proposal
that could not be accomplished by invoking module level functions
after the original method has been defined.

It is purely syntax sugar, containing a large number of empty calories.

> Bruce Eckel




From http  Fri Aug 27 04:38:06 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 01:38:06 -0700
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
	<dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
	<aN5Xc.205341$M95.157379@pd7tw1no>
	<1gj4fb5.607xsc51izh8N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xllg25lkt.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj4u3a.12ttba9fynd6uN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncis152.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<1gj5bp4.qhup8tldmvebN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncitrk7.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
Message-ID: <7xk6vlgemp.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Antoon Pardon <apardon at forel.vub.ac.be> writes:
> but having operators like '+=' which have a different kind of result
> depending on whether you have a mutable or immutable object is IMO
> not such a good design and I wonder what design principle inspired them.

+= was added to Python fairly recently (in 2.0, I think) and there was
a lot of agonizing about whether to add it.  It was one of those
things like the ?: construction.  On the one hand there was the
abstract objection you raise.  On the other hand there were lots of
users frustrated at being unable to say v[f(x)] += 1 instead of having
to call f twice or introduce a temp variable or something.
Eventually, practicality beat purity.


From fakeaddress at nowhere.org  Wed Aug 11 04:21:22 2004
From: fakeaddress at nowhere.org (Bryan Olson)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:21:22 GMT
Subject: rsa implementation question
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1483.1092208637.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <1092200894.4119a9beb1978@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>	<200408110852.57937.heikowu@ceosg.de>
	<mailman.1483.1092208637.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <5GkSc.124$O72.121@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>

Ajay Brar asked:
 > i am using RSa for signing documents and hence decrypting and then
 > encrypting to verify?

Unfortunately yes, that seems to be what pycrypto is doing.
The method is now discredited.

 > what i was rather trying to get at was what if the plaintext is too
 > large?

Always hash and pad, for any size message.  I suggest the SHA-1,
hash function, which is in the Python standard library as "sha".

Next you need a padding scheme that formats the message into a
block suitable for the RSA private key operation.  The signing
method of PKCS#1 version 1.5 is the most popular RSA signature
scheme, and when the payload is a hash digest it has no known
serious weaknesses.

The function encode_block_from_message, below, will hash a given
message, then build and return a EMSA-PKCS1-v1_5 "Encoded
Message" (EM) from it.  The returned EM is suitable for signing
with the pycrypto RSA sign function.

I agree with about half of Heiko Wundram's response.


#  sha1_header_tuple is the prefix of the DER encoding of a:
#     sequene(sequence(oid, NULL), octet_string)
#  where the octet string has length 20, and completes the encoding.
#
sha1_header_tuple = (0x30, 0x21, 0x30, 0x9, 0x6, 0x5, 0x2b, 0xe,
         0x3, 0x2, 0x1a, 0x5, 0x0, 0x4, 0x14)

sha1_header = ''.join(map(chr, sha1_header_tuple))


def sha1_hash_and_encode(message):
     return sha1_header + sha.new(message).digest()


def encode_block_from_message(message, intended_length):
     """Algorithm EMSA_PKCS1-v1_5 from PKCS 1 version 2
        intended_length should be one octet less that modulus length
     """
     der_encoding = sha1_hash_and_encode(message)
     assert intended_length >= len(der_encoding) + 10
     pad_string = chr(0xFF) * (intended_length - len(der_encoding) - 2)
     result = chr(1) + pad_string + chr(0) + der_encoding
     return result


-- 
--Bryan


From zanesdad at bellsouth.net  Fri Aug 20 07:34:00 2004
From: zanesdad at bellsouth.net (Jeremy Jones)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 07:34:00 -0400
Subject: Is HTTPSConnection thread-safe?
In-Reply-To: <027501c48680$950cb3b0$7f00a8c0@scl01.siliconcreation.com>
References: <027501c48680$950cb3b0$7f00a8c0@scl01.siliconcreation.com>
Message-ID: <4125E1A8.5090805@bellsouth.net>

Joe Wong wrote:

> Hi,
> I have a small program using HTTPSConnection to issue a POST on the
> server. When multiple threads of the same program is running, I got
> the error:
> Exception in thread Thread-3:
> Traceback (most recent call last):
> File "C:\PYTHON23\lib\threading.py", line 436, in __bootstrap
> self.run()
> File "C:\PYTHON23\lib\threading.py", line 416, in run
> self.__target(*self.__args, **self.__kwargs)
> File "mcstest.py", line 27, in thread_func
> conn.request("POST", CGI_PATH, params, headers)
> File "c:\python23\lib\httplib.py", line 718, in request
> self._send_request(method, url, body, headers)
> File "c:\python23\lib\httplib.py", line 739, in _send_request
> self.endheaders()
> File "c:\python23\lib\httplib.py", line 712, in endheaders
> self._send_output()
> File "c:\python23\lib\httplib.py", line 597, in _send_output
> self.send(msg)
> File "c:\python23\lib\httplib.py", line 564, in send
> self.connect()
> File "c:\python23\lib\httplib.py", line 985, in connect
> ssl = socket.ssl(sock, self.key_file, self.cert_file)
> File "C:\Python23\lib\socket.py", line 73, in ssl
> return _realssl(sock, keyfile, certfile)
> sslerror: SSL_CTX_new error
> in random order. Is there any fix / patches for this?
> Regards,
> - Joe

Are you passing the same HTTPSConnection object to a bunch of threads?
With just a cursory glance at the httplib module, it doesn't look like
it is thread safe (meaning I saw no thread imports, no references to
locks, etc.). If, for some reason, you feel it necessary to pass the
same HTTPSConnection object to multiple threads, you will probably want
to write a thread-safe wrapper for HTTPSConnection. I can't think why
you would want to pass the same conn object to multiple threads rather
than creating a new one per thread - unless you want to have one and
only one persistent connection among all threads (using keepalives, I
guess).


Jeremy
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From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sun Aug  1 20:19:02 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 20:19:02 -0400
Subject: Strange timing data for list.pop()
References: <roy-57B296.13170501082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <cek19m$690$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Roy Smith" <roy at panix.com> wrote in message
news:roy-57B296.13170501082004 at reader1.panix.com...
> In the recent "transforming a list into a string" thread, we've been
> discussing the fact that list.pop() is O(1), but list.pop(0) is O(n).  I
> decided to do a little timing experiment.  To be sure, I did verify
> experimentally the expected result, but along the way, I came upon an
> interesting artifact that I'm at a loss to explain.
>
> I used the following to generate some timing numbers for pop() on
> various sized lists:
>
> import time
> for power in range (20):
>     i = 2 ** power
>     list = [1] * i
>     t0 = time.time ()
>     list.pop ()
>     t1 = time.time ()
>     t = t1 - t0
>     print i, t
>
> I know wall clock time isn't a good way to time things, but it was a
> first cut before I dove into the manual and found os.times().  The
> interesting thing is the data that I got with the above code:
>
> 1 7.70092010498e-05
> 2 6.91413879395e-06
> 4 5.96046447754e-06
> 8 5.00679016113e-06
> 16 5.00679016113e-06
> 32 5.00679016113e-06
> 64 5.00679016113e-06
> 128 5.00679016113e-06
> 256 4.05311584473e-06
> 512 5.00679016113e-06
> 1024 5.00679016113e-06
> 2048 5.96046447754e-06
> 4096 9.05990600586e-06
> 8192 9.05990600586e-06
> 16384 9.05990600586e-06
> 32768 1.4066696167e-05
> 65536 2.31266021729e-05
> 131072 3.09944152832e-05
> 262144 3.60012054443e-05
> 524288 3.38554382324e-05
>
> I plotted the data.  http://www.panix.com/~roy/pop-times.png

This appears to be a fitted spline or somesuch rather than the data itself.
Also, the data should better be plotted against power rather than 2**power.
Then you would see a flat region across half the plot.
>
> An interesting shaped curve!  I haven't done any curve fitting, but by
> eye it looks something like k - log (1/n).  The data is quite
> repeatable, too.  Admitting that clock time is a silly thing to be
> measuring here, anybody have any clue what might be causing this
> behavior?

cache effect when you exceed 2**10?

Terry J. Reedy






From ramen at lackingtalent.com  Tue Aug 17 20:40:06 2004
From: ramen at lackingtalent.com (Dave Benjamin)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 00:40:06 -0000
Subject: Flython?
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
	<b03e80d.0408171519.5b3f3424@posting.google.com>
	<65adnQvUKIK_C7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <slrnci5a9m.4hm.ramen@lackingtalent.com>

In article <65adnQvUKIK_C7_cRVn-jQ at powergate.ca>, Peter Hansen wrote:
> Sandy Norton wrote:
> 
>> Peter Hansen wrote:
>>>In the vein of Jython, I wonder what it would take to build
>>>a Flython?  (Lousy name, I know.)  That would take Python
>>>source, presumably a subset since some things couldn't be supported,
>>>and compile it into ActionScript bytecode (aka the bytecode compiled
>>>from ECMAScript source for the Macromedia Flash player environment).
>> 
>> Have you looked at http://ming.sourceforge.net/
> 
> Briefly, but I'm not fully qualified to judge.  I wrote this
> in another post that you might not yet have seen:
> 
> """Ming appears to be in an extremely early form, and there are
>     suggestions it's not very stable yet (and I think that word was used
>     in the sense of "unreliable", not just "changing").
> 
>     The script support appears to be "C-like, with a very limited
>     feature set".  Doesn't even allow function calls?!  That
>     can't be good.
> """

This was roughly my reaction as well. It seems like the project kind of
stalled, and its support for ActionScript is very minimal. But it's a neat
library for simple stuff, like rendering (non-interactive) vector graphics,
and turning images into SWFs (which used to be necessary before Flash 6
added support for dynamic loading of JPEGs). I've actually used it from
mod_python for this purpose before.

-- 
 .:[ dave benjamin: ramen/[sp00] -:- spoomusic.com -:- ramenfest.com ]:.
        "talking about music is like dancing about architecture."


From fumanchu at amor.org  Thu Aug  5 19:57:58 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 16:57:58 -0700
Subject: how to force a list to be local?
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022DE4@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Mark Harrison wrote:
> In the following code, t1 does not modify b, while t2 seems to
> modify b.  What do I need to do in order to make b local in t2
> so that b.remove() does not modify the passed in list?
> 
> def t1(a,b):
>     b = []
> 
> def t2(a,b):
>     b.remove(4)

Short answer: make a copy of the list.

def t2(a, b):
    b = b[:]
    b.remove(4)


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl  Sat Aug  7 17:19:05 2004
From: jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl (Jarek Zgoda)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 21:19:05 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu> <cf3b56$gt6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>
	<m3y8kqpw2l.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
	<cf3dna$891$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>
	<MfbRc.41$cq.23@fe39.usenetserver.com>
Message-ID: <cf3h09$7ip$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>

Hans Nowak <hans at zephyrfalcon.org> pisze:

>> You want to say "if you want any improvement, do it yourself"? Sure, 
>> it's much better than Java's JCP, but expect 
>> http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/F/fork.html if enough people will share 
>> the same annoyance and anger.
> 
> I may hem and haw whenever a new feature is added that I consider redundant (as 
> everybody reading my weblog knows well :-), but I would never support a fork.

It is first time I felt it's "we and them" world, divided into "Python
developers" and "Python users". They want features. We want stability
and performance.

I would rather use Ruby, than support a Python's fork. Moreover, I don't
think the fork would ever happen.

-- 
Jarek Zgoda
http://jpa.berlios.de/


From michael_mccracken at mac.com  Wed Aug  4 12:51:16 2004
From: michael_mccracken at mac.com (Michael McCracken)
Date: 4 Aug 2004 09:51:16 -0700
Subject: help: Unit test fixture returning the same object
References: <9895e897.0408031533.26720ba0@posting.google.com>
	<nKGdnfWEjOtspo3cRVn-qg@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <9895e897.0408040851.21ac7caa@posting.google.com>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message news:<nKGdnfWEjOtspo3cRVn-qg at powergate.ca>...
> Michael McCracken wrote:
> 
> > The problem is that in each test case, setUp and tearDown are called
> > as expected according to the print statements, but they don't seem to
> > have any effect after the first invocation. self.testfile is always
> > the same instance as reported by id().
> 
> What Roy said... but to prove it to yourself, if you need to,
> just implement a little class-variable-based counter in the
> File __init__ method to show that you are getting different
> objects each time.  (That is, increment a global counter
> each time you go through __init__, and store the current
> count in the instance, to be retrieved and shown when you
> are printing the ids() for the objects.)
> 
> -Peter

Thanks for the responses!
I think I'm getting pretty close to the solution, but I'd appreciate
some more help.

So, I'm still surprised that id() would point to the same object every
time, but I'm willing to believe it. However, I don't think that's the
only thing that's going on - the reason I noticed this in the first
place is that the setUp method was opening a file and populating some
lists in my File object, and those lists were accumulating objects
between test methods.

The first test sees the File as it expects, while the second one sees
a File with list member variables that have twice as many of each
object it reads in, and so forth. That's why I was willing to believe
that the same id() wasn't a fluke.

I did try the global count idea, and I did get an increasing count,
despite the same id oddity. So new instances seem to be getting
created, with the same data structures. I don't think I'm accidentally
using class variables, and that is the only thing I can think of. Any
more tips?

Thanks,
-mike


From rhaper at houston.rr.com  Wed Aug 18 23:21:14 2004
From: rhaper at houston.rr.com (Rod Haper)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 03:21:14 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <K0VUc.2507$Jn5.2108@fe1.texas.rr.com>

Lucas Raab wrote:
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....


Just turned 57 here and still coding strong although I've started to 
think of birthdays not in terms of a count up but rather as a count down 
towards retirement and freedom.  I started programming back in 1966 on a 
Burroughs B5500 using ALGOL 60.  A truly wonderful machine and 
programming language - far ahead of their time.  I've always considered 
myself lucky to have started with a block structured language like ALGOL 
because of the good programming habits it engendered.  I've worked with 
a lot of machines, languages, code and applications since those heady 
young days but for shear productivity nothing beats Python ... and 
besides it's just plain fun to use.  I've been using Python for over 
eight years now.

-- 
Rod


From grante at visi.com  Sun Aug 15 20:25:26 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 00:25:26 GMT
Subject: Python secure?
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
Message-ID: <411ffef6$0$65603$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-15, Roger Binns <rogerb at rogerbinns.com> wrote:
> Calvin wrote:
>> Sorry I should have said I'm new to programming let alone Python. I
>> wish to know whether Python is secure as an exe for a commercial
>> product.
>
> Yes.  Anyone who recovers your "code" and/or uses it will be in
> violation of copyright

I don't see how decompiling is a copyright violation.  If I buy
a copy of a book, I'm pretty sure I can translate it into
another language if I want to form my own use.

Unless the license under which use of the program was granted
forbade de-compiling and reverse-engineering, I don't see why
decompiling is illegal.  In some places (Europe?)
reverse-engineering is explicitly allowed by law.


> and several other laws. 

What other laws?

> That is legal protection no matter what languages or
> combination of languages you use.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  A GRAM?? A BRAM... A
                                  at               GROOM... A BROOM... Oh,
                               visi.com            Yeh!! Wash the ROOM!!


From michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk  Wed Aug 11 12:18:47 2004
From: michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk (Michael Sparks)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:18:47 +0100
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>

Peter Hansen wrote:
> class Klass:
>      # init set
> 
>      decorate:
>          staticmethod
>      def meth0(x):
>          return x

If it counts for anything, +1.

This strikes me personally as a very nice alternative to the
current suggestion.

The idea of paired keywords is sufficiently common in python
to strike me as another positive element.

Using the examples on http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators

You gain something like:
class C(object):

    decorate:
        staticmethod,
        funcattrs(grammar="'@' dotted_name [ '(' [arglist] ')' ]",
                  status="experimental", author="BDFL")
    def longMethodNameForEffect(longArgumentOne=None,
                                longArgumentTwo=42):
        """This method blah, blah.

        It supports the following arguments:
        - longArgumentOne -- a string giving ...
        - longArgumentTwo -- a number giving ...

        blah, blah.

        """
        raise NotYetImplemented

And:

decorate:
   accepts(int,int)
   returns(float)
def bar(low,high):
  pass

Which strikes me as pretty good - the fact the method is a static method
is still in your face. The decorate keyword suggests some voodoo
happening you might want to be wary of.

The only downside I can see is that it might not be 100% obvious that it
relates to the following function to newcomers to python.

The other really nice thing about it is it directly suggests that the
following functions will be applied to the function.

Taking a subset of a simple PLY type grammar from, you gain something
like:

class Calc(Parser):
    decorate:
       tokenrule(r'\d+')
    def t_NUMBER(self, t):
        t.value = int(t.value)
        return t

    decorate:
       tokenrule(r'\n+')
    def t_newline(self, t):
        t.lineno += t.value.count("\n")

    decorate:
       grammarrule('statement : NAME EQUALS expression')
       versioninfo("Added in 2.2")
       typeinfo(int)
    def p_statement_assign(self, p):
        names[p[1]] = p[3]

    decorate:
       grammarrule('statement : expression')
       versioninfo("Added in 2.4")
       deprecated
       typeinfo(None)
    def p_statement_expr(self, p):
        print p[1]

    decorate:
       grammarrule("""
        expression : expression PLUS expression
                  | expression MINUS expression
                  | expression TIMES expression
                  | expression DIVIDE expression
                  | expression EXP expression
        """)
       versioninfo("Added in 2.4")
       typeinfo(int)
    def p_expression_binop(self, p):
        p[0] = func[p[2]](p[1],p[3])

    decorate:
       grammarrule('expression : MINUS expression %prec UMINUS')
       versioninfo("Added in 1.5")
       typeinfo(int)
    def p_expression_uminus(self, p):
        p[0] = -p[2]

    decorate:
       grammarrule('expression : LPAREN expression RPAREN')
       versioninfo("Added in 1.1")
       typeinfo(int)
    def p_expression_group(self, p):
        p[0] = p[2]

In a syntax highlighted editor that also looks *alot* cleaner than
beforehand. IMO, it also looks slightly cleaner than the @version - for
one very, very simple reason - if you have a very big decorator block,
for whatever reason, the "def" stands out clearly so you can skim where
the function starts - even without syntax highlighting.

My initial reaction to @decorators was "ugh!". However I was coming to
accept it as inevitable after reading the various arguments for/against
various syntaxes. *This* syntax strikes me personally as having
distinct advantages - largely for clarity of code, and solves the 
"where *DOES* the function start?" question with large decorator
blocks.

My tuppenceworth... (I really like this version)


Michael.
-- 
Michael.Sparks at rd.bbc.co.uk    
British Broadcasting Corporation, Research and Development
Kingswood Warren, Surrey KT20 6NP

This message (and any attachments) may contain personal views
which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.




From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Aug 27 12:55:19 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 12:55:19 -0400
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <cgnp1n$cjg$1@panix3.panix.com>

In article <1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit at yahoo.com>,
Alex Martelli <aleaxit at yahoo.com> wrote:
>Robert Brewer <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote:
>>
>> This is a call for all who wish to sign the proposal, either for,
>> against, or abstaining. Please sign by either posting on
>> comp.lang.python (replying to this is fine), or sending email to
>
>For.
>
>I wish we'd use a better keyword than 'using' which would have a
>bazillion other possible and useful future interpretations.  Of the
>possible keywords mentioned on the site, several (by, per, through, via)
>appear better to me, and I'd particularly love the three-letter ones as
>they'd align well with 'def' -- my own preference would be 'per'.

-1 on ``per``
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From z at b.com  Fri Aug 27 14:07:40 2004
From: z at b.com (JZ)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:07:40 +0200
Subject: Mysql in Python?
References: <cglb3o$fsk@odak26.prod.google.com>
	<1a0o0u8an8yhn$.1aby5k5hmj67d.dlg@40tude.net>
	<7xsma9gfpr.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <1m51c42tp8am.3d5eas08z7bx$.dlg@40tude.net>

Dnia 27 Aug 2004 01:14:40 -0700, Paul Rubin napisa?(a):

>> There is no PHP standard templating system. PHP itself is a template
>> framework! 
> 
> I'm not sure what the distinction is supposed to be?

>From the beginning PHP was invented to be a template language (similar like
today Smarty is a "template language" for today's php) First PHP was no
object language at all. It's history was adding more and more functions,
sessions, first poor object features etc, etc. 

--
JZ


From christian at mvonessen.de  Wed Aug 18 15:27:11 2004
From: christian at mvonessen.de (Christian von Essen)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 21:27:11 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.18.19.27.11.413240@mvonessen.de>

I'm 18 years old


From jepler at unpythonic.net  Fri Aug 20 08:15:30 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 07:15:30 -0500
Subject: Tkinter
In-Reply-To: <8e16829.0408190703.1c6845d7@posting.google.com>
References: <8e16829.0408190703.1c6845d7@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <20040820121530.GA2252@unpythonic.net>

You must install the RPM package "tkinter-2.2.2"

Jeff
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From noone at here.com  Sun Aug 15 19:31:15 2004
From: noone at here.com (M. Clift)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 00:31:15 +0100
Subject: random / lists
References: <cfl5d1$f8p$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<zEDTc.210024$OB3.89400@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <cformj$vso$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>

Hi Wes,

Thanks for responding.

What I want is a system that controls the direction in a generated list. If
the user selects a number a letter is choosen for each number from at random
from an array. That's fine and easy to do. The hard part is, is that no
letter can be repeated with only one letter interveining and the letters can
only follow each other under certain rules.

 These being :
1. 'a' can be followed by any letter
2. 'b' can only be followed by 'c'
3. 'c' can be followed by 'a' or 'd'
4 'd' can be followed by 'a' or 'c'

Really it doesn't matter what these rules are for the time being it's just
working out a way to control the outcome of a list of unknown size. I've
experimented with lists of say up to 10 long using ' if ' statements for
each number and different array depending upon the previous letter, but as
you can imagine it is no good for larger lists as the code just goes on and
on :  ). Rather than I have done before, whereby I said if letter 3 == 'a'
then letter 4 = choice(bcd) is it possible to say if previous letter equals
whatever then this letter equals whatever?

Wes, if you recieved an email direct to you address I'm sorry. I must
be tierd, as for some reaon I've been hitting the reply button all night
instead of the reply to group!

Thanks




From pythonista at sbcglobal.net  Sun Aug 29 22:58:53 2004
From: pythonista at sbcglobal.net (Brian Almond)
Date: 29 Aug 2004 19:58:53 -0700
Subject: Announcing PyCs, a new Python-like language on .Net
References: <mailman.2572.1093751093.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<413170A2.1F1D1212@alcyone.com>
Message-ID: <411e4639.0408291858.741eb8d8@posting.google.com>

Erik Max Francis <max at alcyone.com> wrote in message news:<413170A2.1F1D1212 at alcyone.com>...
> Mark Hahn wrote:
> 
> > This is an announcement of the beginning of development of a new
> > Python-like language called PyCs (pronounced "pie-cees"). Like
> > IronPython,
> > PyCs will be Python on .Net but it will have more advanced features
> > and
> > probably have higher performance due to a Psyco-like implementation
> > technique.  See http://pycs.org.
> 
> Here we go again ...

Is it time for an "intervention" yet?  :)

Still, I'm curious to see where this goes, although I hope this
project doesn't generate a large amount of OT threads on c.l.py.


From hanhwe_kim at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 11 17:56:52 2004
From: hanhwe_kim at yahoo.com (Han Kim)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 14:56:52 -0700
Subject: recommendations for CVS hosting service
Message-ID: <64d85d64.0408111356.13959326@posting.google.com>

Hello,

I am looking for a commercial CVS hosting service for a
mid-size software development project involving about 7 developers. A
commercial service similar to the CVS service that sourceforge.net
provides for open source code would be nice.

On the web I have found:

cornerhost.com/versionhost.com
cvsdude.org
csoft.net
sourcehosting.com
bug-track.com 

I also learned that pragmapool.com provides a Subversion hosting
service.

Has anyone had any good (or bad) experiences with any of these
services?

TIA,
Han


From DeepBleu at DeepBleu.org  Fri Aug 27 23:22:48 2004
From: DeepBleu at DeepBleu.org (DeepBleu)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 03:22:48 GMT
Subject: Iteration over Lists and Strings
Message-ID: <cUSXc.56768$xi6.42946@fe2.texas.rr.com>

I noticed the following:
>>a = 'abba'
>>for n in a:
>>  print n, a.index(n)
a 0
b 1
b 1
a 0

(expected result:
a 0
b 1
b 2
a 3)

The same with lists:
>>List = [1, 0 , 1]
>>for n in List:
>>  print n, List.index(n)
1 0
0 1
1 0

(expected result:
1 0
0 1
1 2)

What is going on?  Can someone clarify this to me?  And how can I ensure
that the iteration produces the absolute index number **without** doing
something like:
>>a = 'abba'
>>k = len(a)
>>for m in range(0, k):
>>  print a[m], m
a 0
b 1
b 2
a 3

Thanks -




From bart_nessux at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 13 07:59:58 2004
From: bart_nessux at hotmail.com (Bart Nessux)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 07:59:58 -0400
Subject: Print Special Symbols in Tk GUI
In-Reply-To: <cfhids$sr5$1@news5.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
References: <cfh9pr$fnb$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
	<cfhids$sr5$1@news5.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
Message-ID: <cfiafu$sm3$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>

vincent wehren wrote:
> "Bart Nessux" <bart_nessux at hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:cfh9pr$fnb$1 at solaris.cc.vt.edu...
> 
>>Using tkinter to create a Python version of Microsoft's winver. Works
>>great... how can I print the copyright symbol (c) and the registered (R)
>>symbol into the GUI?
> 
> 
> Consider using unicode(\u) or unicode name (\n{name goes here} escapes:
> 
> import tkMessageBox
> import Tkinter
> root = Tkinter.Tk()
> root.withdraw()
> copyright_symbol = u"\u00A9"
> # or use: copyright_symbol = u"\N{COPYRIGHT SIGN}"
> registered_symbol = u"\u00AE"
> # or use: registered_symbol = u"\N{REGISTERED SIGN}"
> msg = u"Copyright: %s, Registered: %s" % (copyright_symbol,
> registered_symbol)
> tkMessageBox.showinfo("Info", msg)
> #root.mainloop()
> 
> Regards,
> --
> 
> Vincent Wehren

Thanks Vincent... that works great.


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Wed Aug 18 18:17:07 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 22:17:07 GMT
Subject: multi-instance and classic singleton design patterns
References: <b68d2f19.0408181354.43821bd9@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <DzQUc.2466$Jn5.373@fe1.texas.rr.com>

"Neil Zanella" <nzanella at cs.mun.ca> wrote in message
news:b68d2f19.0408181354.43821bd9 at posting.google.com...
> Hello,
>
> I would be very interested in knowing how the following C++ multi-instance
> singleton (AKA Borg) design pattern based code snippet can be neatly coded
> in Python. While there may be somewhat unusual places where multi-instance
> singleton is more useful than plain singleton, it seems to me that the
> former leads to less coding, so unless I can somehow package the
> singleton pattern in a superclass (so I don't have to code it
> explicityly in every singleton class I have), then I am more
> interested in the multi-instance singleton design pattern.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Neil
<snip C++ example code>

Neil -

You may be new to the Python community, given that you are porting a C++
pattern to Python.  There is a terrific resource for snippets of this kind
in the Python Cookbook, to be found at
http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/ .

You should find a *very* neat implementation of this pattern at the bottom
of http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/66531 .

-- Paul

(You can also try googling for "python singleton borg" to find this and many
other helpful suggestions and comments.)




From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 11 14:22:46 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:22:46 -0400
Subject: Python equivalent to a C trick
In-Reply-To: <1d7b6d0d.0408092255.1177908e@posting.google.com>
References: <1d7b6d0d.0408092255.1177908e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <411a63f6$1@nntp.zianet.com>

Dan wrote:
> Is there a python equivalent of this trick in C?
> 
> Logic_Test ? True_Result : False_Result

There's something close:

Logic_Test and True_Result or False_Result

print 'you have %i egg%s' % (num_eggs, (num_eggs != 1) and 's' or '')

The main problem with this is that False_Result will get executed if 
Logic_Test is false *or* True_Result evaluates to false. Witness the 
following broken variation of the above:

print 'you have %i egg%s' % (num_eggs, (num_eggs == 1) and '' or 's')

So it's not perfect, but it is workable. And as a previous post 
indicated, this situation is not likely to change. :)

   -- Mark


From ivoras at __-geri.cc.fer.hr  Tue Aug 24 17:43:48 2004
From: ivoras at __-geri.cc.fer.hr (Ivan Voras)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:43:48 +0200
Subject: Python SOAP?
In-Reply-To: <cpazn4le76p.fsf@cabernet.nelson.monkey.org>
References: <cgdqvj$2eo$1@bagan.srce.hr>
	<cpazn4le76p.fsf@cabernet.nelson.monkey.org>
Message-ID: <cggcqp$uc6$1@bagan.srce.hr>

Nelson Minar wrote:

> 
> There are two active SOAP projects I'm aware of - ZSI and SOAPpy. They
> share a home:
>   http://pywebsvcs.sourceforge.net/

> I don't know if the specific HTTP cookie persistence you're asking for
> has been implemented in either. For what it's worth, I wouldn't count

Yes, those are the libraries that I described in my post - and are sadly 
lacking. :(

 > on that approach working reliably in many SOAP implementations.

While it's not standard and could be considered 'dirty', I found many 
libraries support it. (Axis does, some c++ libraries I found do also, 
and I "heard" that's the way .NET services work also).



From bokr at oz.net  Thu Aug  5 17:13:50 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 5 Aug 2004 21:13:50 GMT
Subject: Confused about pep 318
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <ceu7ue$n3u$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 15:42:19 -0500, "Edward K. Ream" <edreamleo at charter.net> wrote:

>Hello all,
[... snip admirably restrained post ..]
I too am very much against wasting '@' on @decorator!
Please see my post in the "tweaking @decorator syntax" thread
for a possible alternative that might also have some interesting
room for inventive use.

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From russblau at hotmail.com  Thu Aug  5 17:37:12 2004
From: russblau at hotmail.com (Russell Blau)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 17:37:12 -0400
Subject: import random error
References: <7903bb89.0408051324.63ee1535@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <2nfnk9FcdrrU1@uni-berlin.de>

"Rob B" <mrbrown200425 at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7903bb89.0408051324.63ee1535 at posting.google.com...
> I am just starting to learn Python and was writing a simple script on
> my machine (Mac OS X 10.3.4), but I can't seem to import the random
> module:
>
> #!/usr/bin/env python
>
> import random
>
> Results in:
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "./math.py", line 3, in ?
>     import random
>   File "/sw/lib/python2.3/random.py", line 42, in ?
>     from math import log as _log, exp as _exp, pi as _pi, e as _e
> ImportError: cannot import name log
>
> I have such a feeling that this is either a) because I don't know what
> I'm doing or b) the python install is somehow strange. What is strange
> is that in interactive mode, import random works fine.

Neither (a) nor (b).  It is c) you have named your program "math.py" but
"math" happens also to be the name of a module in the standard Python
library, and the "random" module needs access to the "math" module.  But
when it searches the Python path for a module named "math" it comes upon
your file first.

Simple solution:  call your program something else!  (and make sure you
delete math.py? from your working directory).


-- 
I don't actually read my hotmail account, but you can replace hotmail with
excite if you really want to reach me.




From olli at haluter.fromme.com  Thu Aug 19 07:32:46 2004
From: olli at haluter.fromme.com (Oliver Fromme)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 11:32:46 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <2ojheuFb9j2eU1@uni-berlin.de>

Lucas Raab <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote:
 > One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
 > Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
 > about....

I'm 00100001b (or 021h ... or if you prefer decimal, it's
33 years).  Although I feel more like 27, which is the age
of my GF.  :-)

First learned to program in BASIC on an old Wang computer
(with magnetic ring core memory, no "modern" RAM chips) and
on a Commodore PET2001.  I was 12 back then, I think.  Then
went through various other languages (including assembly on
65xx, 68xxx and x86), and I think that all of them suck,
especially Perl and Java.

As a matter of fact, I also think that Python sucks, but it
sucks a lot less than all the others.

Regards
   Oliver

-- 
Oliver Fromme, Konrad-Celtis-Str. 72, 81369 Munich, Germany

``All that we see or seem is just a dream within a dream.''
(E. A. Poe)


From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Thu Aug 26 16:09:32 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:09:32 -0700
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.58.0408261056530.568@zaphod.rite-group.com>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.SOL.4.58.0408251722510.568@zaphod.rite-group.com>
	<upt5eibse.fsf@broadpark.no>
	<Pine.SOL.4.58.0408261056530.568@zaphod.rite-group.com>
Message-ID: <10isgqrfbmnc26b@corp.supernews.com>

Rich Teer wrote:

>On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Tor Iver Wilhelmsen wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Rich Teer <rich.teer at rite-group.com> writes:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>I think you're getting confused with the Blue ?yster Cult.
>>>      
>>>
>>Actually, there is also The Cult, a British band that lasted from
>>1984-1995.
>>    
>>
>
>I belive the Cult (She Sells Sanctuary, etc.) is another manfifestation
>of the Blue ?yster Cult.
>  
>

No, the two are totally unrelated.  (One was American (New York) and led 
by Eric Bloom, the other was British (London) and led by Ian Astbury.)

However, The Cult did have an earlier incarnation as Southern Death Cult.

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Aug 20 20:29:08 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 20:29:08 -0400
Subject: decorator J4 - any objections?
References: <cab22418.0408201006.16f163b2@posting.google.com>
	<H5ydnQFIZezZH7vcRVn-iQ@comcast.com>
	<7o3di0pt7o7e6cu3q3cbkls3g5asnn9n3u@4ax.com>
	<7x4qmx735u.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <cg650k$l19$1@panix1.panix.com>

In article <7x4qmx735u.fsf at ruckus.brouhaha.com>,
Paul Rubin  <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:
>Christos "TZOTZIOY" Georgiou <tzot at sil-tec.gr> writes:
>>
>> Why type decorators as a dictionary if you are not going to produce a
>> dictionary?  Cause if you produce a dictionary, the order of the
>> decorators is no longer guaranteed.
>
>Does that matter?

Yes.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From jepler at unpythonic.net  Mon Aug 23 10:31:18 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 09:31:18 -0500
Subject: [Tkinter-discuss] Please help -- Tkinter Scale widget with
	DoubleVar is acting weird
In-Reply-To: <4124C828.5080106@noaa.gov>
References: <4124C828.5080106@noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <20040823143117.GF7899@unpythonic.net>

I looked into this some more, and was able to reproduce the problem
using
    tcl-8.3.5-88
    redhat-release-9-3
I was then also able to demonstrate it on tcl/tk 8.5.

I used this wish script:
    scale .s -variable v -resolution 0.1 -from 0 -to 1
    trace variable v w changed
    proc changed {args} { global v; puts "v changed.  new value: $v" }
    pack .s

I set the scale value to 0.7.  Now, by moving the cursor *between the
slider and the trough*, I get the repeated message "v changed.  new value:
0.7".  (It's the movement between slider and trough, not just hovering,
that made the redundant sets happen for me)

This behavior doesn't seem to depend on the value of tcl_precision.

It *looks* like the problem is in TkRoundToResolution().  It returns
a slightly different value than the incoming value, so that the test
"scalePtr->value == value" in tkUnixScale:TkpSetScaleValue() fails and
it falls through to a Tcl_SetVar call.  This is low-level stuff inside
of tk.  Like Fredrik suggested, your next step is to go to the tcl/tk
community with your report, if it's important to you.

Jeff
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From mwh at python.net  Wed Aug 11 11:39:51 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:39:51 GMT
Subject: How to get rid of "hex/oct constants > sys.maxint" warning?
References: <411a3402$0$65564$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <m33c2tpttl.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Grant Edwards <grante at visi.com> writes:

> I'm getting tired of seeing meaningless warnings from my code,
> but I can't figure out how to get rid of them:
> 
> For example:
> 
> fcntl.ioctl(fd,0xc0047a80,s)   causes
> 
>   FutureWarning: hex/oct constants > sys.maxint will return
>   positive values in Python 2.4 and up
> 
> Firstly, I have no idea what that error means in this context.
> 0xc0047a80 isn't intended to be an integer (either positive or
> negative): it's just a chunk of 32 bits.
>   
> Googling the newsgroup came up with the suggestion that putting
> an "L" on the end of the constant would eliminate the warning,
> but it causes an error:
> 
> fcntl.ioctl(fd,0xc0047a80L,s)  causes
> 
>   OverflowError: long int too large to convert to int
> 
> So, that doesn't work.
> 
> How _do_ I get rid of the warning?  Is there a way to tell
> Python that the constant isn't an integer, it's just a bit
> pattern?

It's horrible, but ~int(~0xc0047a80L&0xFFFFFFFFL) will work.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  I love the way Microsoft follows standards.  In much the same
  manner that fish follow migrating caribou.           -- Paul Tomblin
               -- http://home.xnet.com/~raven/Sysadmin/ASR.Quotes.html


From bokr at oz.net  Sat Aug 21 18:15:25 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 22:15:25 GMT
Subject: My only complaint about Python
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<mailman.1996.1092967167.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cg4spl$ht3$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<mailman.2074.1093029544.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cg8hht$nm7$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:19:01 -0400, Tim Peters <tim.peters at gmail.com> wrote:

>[Darren Dale]
>...
>>>> Will the BDFL ever split with Visual Studio?
>
>[Tim Peters]
>>> We should be clear here that this isn't Guido's decision.  What you
>>> get on Windows is what you get on all other platforms in this respect:
>>>  you get what volunteers show up to produce, year after year after
>>> year.  So you get a fine Cygwin port from Jason Tishler, seemingly
>>> toiling all alone, and you get contributions from at least four
>>> developers who do use Visual Studio.
>
>[Darren]
>> I meant no disrespect to the developers.
>
>Didn't think you did.  I'm just saying (a) the BDFL is irrelevant to
>this particular issue; and, (b) you get what other people give.  If
>nobody with a long-term commitment to a specific Visual Studio
>alternative appears, then #b rules.
>
>> ...
>> This comes back to the heart of the matter. How do you get volunteers
>> who dont have access to VS to get involved with Python development?
>
>Very few Python contributors have access to VS, but it doesn't matter
>since most aren't running on Windows either.  Even on Windows, VS is
>usually irrelevant to whether somene can pitch in on reviewing bugs
>and patches, improving the standard libraries, improving the docs,
>helping on the newsgroup and mailing lists, keeping python.org
>healthy, etc.  I think it's more of a cultural thing, that Windows
>users typically have a lower contribution rate than users on other
>platforms (whether it's C code or anything else).
>
>I mentioned Cygwin before, and you can certainly develop C extension
>modules, for Python, on Windows, using that.  Other responders have
>their own favored VS alternatives.  "A problem" is that there's more
>than one VS alternative!  That fragments the relatively-small-anyway
>community of people who need a VS alternative on Windows.
>
>> I think the suggestions here were right on, give Python the ability to
>> support MinGW out of the box.
>
>That's a wish.  If it's to be granted, someone has to volunteer to do
>the work initially, and keep it working as the years go by.  Don't
>expect that one of the current contributors will do so (they're
>swamped already).  IOW, it's not a matter of convincing someone it's a
>good idea, it's a matter of someone volunteering to do actual, real
>work.
>
>> I thought that a compiler could even be included in a version of the Windows
>> distribution, but maybe that is taking it too far.
>
>That one won't happen -- most Windows Python users don't even know C,
>and download size is still an issue for many.  Even people who want to
>work on core Python development on Windows using VS need to work from
>a source tarball instead, or from a CVS checkout.

Has anyone considered treating a current binary windows cpython distro like 2.3 as
a bootstrap, using a python script to control (e.g. via os and urllib etc) all the downloading
and md5/pgp-sig checking and building necessary to create an msys/MinGW installation
(as needed if not present) and then a python built from sources purely using msys/MinGW,
with end result being a python installation ready to be used in parallel, or to be switched
to as default?

It might take hours to download and crunch, and it might need to be re-startable
and be based on an evolving checkpointable config file of preferences etc, but why not?

If someone then wanted to make a script repackaging the result as a binary installation,
that would be handy too, and IWT some official versions of everything would wind up on python.org
after a while.

IMO a python script that created the whole thing from sources (well, ok, not including bootstrapping
msys/MingGW totally from sources ;-) would be a useful DOCUMENT as well as a tool. IOW, spreading
bot-knowledge can distribute the knowledge necessary to distributing the volunteer workload of
maintaining and improving the thing. I'm thinking simple text UI control as necessary.

Such a migration bootstrap script seems to me like it would have more robust survival prospects than
an equivalent-end-result prebuilt binary distro made ad hoc by hand and contributed.

Seems like someone must have thought of this before. I guess pieces exist as .bat or .cmd files,
but I'd like to see the whole thing wrapped in a single flexible python script.

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com  Fri Aug 20 09:49:44 2004
From: Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com (Ames Andreas (MPA/DF))
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:49:44 +0200
Subject: My only complaint about Python
Message-ID: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA2F@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>

Hi,

David Fraser wrote:

> But its actually trying to do more than what he's asking. This patch
> is to *cross*-compile python with mingw, compiling it with mingw
> under windows should be easier.

You're right, it has no native support for mingw/msys (mostly cause of
the lack of a robust autoconf toolchain; at least I don't know of
one).  But it should enable you to crosscompile from cygwin to mingw
with auto* support, so you at least don't need another os/machine or
something.

> There was an email to python-list saying it was possible here:
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2004-June/225967.html

I've missed hat one, thanks.


cheers,

andreas



From indigo at bitglue.com  Wed Aug  4 20:56:39 2004
From: indigo at bitglue.com (Phil Frost)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 20:56:39 -0400
Subject: bsddb
In-Reply-To: <41110FDB.9080307@mail.usyd.edu.au>
References: <41110FDB.9080307@mail.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <411185C7.2020705@bitglue.com>

I'm guessing, but _bsddb is probably in Modules, called something like 
"bsddbmodule". It's common for a module written in Python to have a 
helper module written in C with the same name prefixed by an underscore.

Ajay Brar wrote:

> hi!
>
> when i do an import bsddb, it tries do do an import _bsddb
> i looked around Python23\Lib but couldn't find any _bsddp file....or 
> am i totally on the wrong track.
> the reason i am asking is, i am trying to port a Python app to a 
> pocket pc and python release for pocket pc does not have bsddb module.
>
> thanks
>
> cheers



From bryanjugglercryptographer at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 23 16:39:37 2004
From: bryanjugglercryptographer at yahoo.com (Bryan Olson)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 13:39:37 -0700
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <cg99ub$an6@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <1a517b5.0408231239.49f98487@posting.google.com>

ellisjb at my-deja.com wrote:
> I was goint to post that the myth of "python isn't fast enough"
> has been pretty much dispelled in these enlightened times, but I
> guess I was too optimistic. :)

Python is like hundreds of other programming languages in that 
it has a community of believers that decries the ignorance of 
others and dispells the myths of their language's disadvantages, 
to the general satisfaction of said community.


-- 
--Bryan


From export at hope.cz  Fri Aug 20 09:28:05 2004
From: export at hope.cz (Lad)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 06:28:05 -0700
Subject: Py2Exe PROBLEM
References: <81a41dd.0408190023.44d34c44@posting.google.com>
	<2tGdncgUvpKRD7ncRVn-oQ@powergate.ca>
	<81a41dd.0408191109.1fc98889@posting.google.com>
	<cg2vei$pun$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
Message-ID: <81a41dd.0408200528.16b4dbd2@posting.google.com>

> > 
> > Dear Peter,
> > Thank you for your help.
> > Yes, I changed import rgs.py to import rgs but I still receive
> >  >>The following modules appear to be missing
>  
> >>>['blackbox', 'timing', 'rgs.py']
> > 
> > 
> > When I try to start the exe file I get 
> > 
> > Traceback (most recent call last):
> >   File "rgs.pyc", line 561, in OnFileHistory
> >     
> >   File "pickle.pyc", line 1390, in load
> >   File "pickle.pyc", line 872, in load
> >   File "pickle.pyc", line 985, in load_string
> > LookupError: unknown encoding: string-escape
> > 
> > Can you please help again?
> > Lad
> 
> You need to add "encodings" to the list of packages that you manually 
> include (the option is called packages I think) - see the py2exe wiki
> 
> David

Thank you Peter and David for your time to help.
Now the script starts but still it does not run as good as under
Python.
In fact it gets stuck( hangs) and I do not know exactly where.Is there
a method how to find out where it hanged?

In my program I import  the following modules:

from _winreg import *
from wxPython.wx import *
import locale,base64,urllib2,shutil,os.path,timeoutsocket,fnmatch,zipfile,thread,random,mimetools,threading,urllib,string,urlparse,httplib,
re,os,webbrowser,time,strptime,glob,pickle,smtplib,nntplib,ConfigParser,sys

Is there any known problem with any of those moduls running with
Py2exe?
I use 
PythonWin 2.3.4 (#53, May 25 2004)
WxPython 2.4.1.2
Thanks 
Lad.


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 01:48:38 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 01:48:38 -0400
Subject: Python secure?
In-Reply-To: <2xXTc.3775$bJ2.24876@news1.mts.net>
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk><ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com><ZKRTc.3710$bJ2.23892@news1.mts.net>	<cforh6$qiv$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<mailman.1705.1092625838.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2xXTc.3775$bJ2.24876@news1.mts.net>
Message-ID: <NIydnd-skK0q173cRVn-ow@powergate.ca>

Reid Nichol wrote:

> Terry Reedy wrote:
> 
>> ... compiled C can be terribly insecure relative to
>> Python.  C has dangerous functions like strcpy() which, if used with
>> external input, can make a program subject to buffer overrun exploits 
>> that
>> can do explosive damage.
> 
> But this doesn't make C an insecure language.  No language is either 
> secure nor insecure.  It's what the programer does with it that matters.

New definition for the purposes of this discussion:

"secure language": a programming language which, by virtue of
its structure, libraries, syntax, runtime, or other features
supports and tends to encourage the creation of software which
doesn't have gross security holes".  Viz. "Python"

"unsecure language": a programming language which, by virtue
of its structure, primitive libraries, awkward syntax, non-
existent runtime, or other limitations tends to encourage
and lead to the creation of software with gross security
holes".  Viz. "C"

A given programmer will be more likely to create safe and
secure software using Python than with C, thereby making
C the less secure...

-Peter


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Thu Aug 19 15:16:41 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:16:41 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
Message-ID: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>

There are a number of messages on the python-dev mail list that indicate
that Guido is looking for some concensus to come from this list as to what
*one* alternative syntax for decorators we would like him to consider in
place of the @ syntax that is currently in 2.4a2.

I think special thanks are due to:
- Anthony Baxter for his continuing efforts in this regard
- Steven Bethard for some of the clearest thinking and writing on this topic
- Michael Sparks for actually implementing one of the options

We've all done our share of pitching and whining, but we need to settle on
*one* option for Guido to consider.

(And let's not get wrapped up complaining about the "process" being followed
in this whole thing, personally I think it is quite poor.  But let's play
with the cards we've been dealt, and at least make a collective proposal.)

The significant alternatives have been listed on the Python wiki at
http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators .

Interested parties should also look at the comments in the python-dev
archive for the past month, at
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/thread.html .

I would propose a multivote survey: each poster gets 3 votes among the
lettered choices on the Wiki page above.  You can use all 3 for a single
option, or split them across 2 or 3 options if you are open to more than
one.

I am not going to argue that this is scientific in any respect, but it
*should* allow the major 1 or 2 choices to bubble to the top.  I have used
this process at work many times in the past when it was necessary for a
large group to set priorities among a large list of choices.

My vote is:  J2  J2  C1

By the way, once an option has been chosen, it *still* needs an
implementation for Guido to accept it.  This puts some of the options way
ahead of the others, in my mind.

(And let's hope we get at least as good a response as the "average age"
thread!)

-- Paul




From http  Thu Aug 19 22:19:39 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 19:19:39 -0700
Subject: Rita Sue and Bob too
References: <cg3ksb$bg5$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <7x7jruwnyc.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

"M. Clift" <noone at here.com> writes:
> But, how to I find a sequence in a list of unknown size? i.e. this sequence
> in list of other names and replace it with three others?
> 
> 'Rita','Sue','Bob'
> 
> This is almost a nightly occurrence (my posting questions), but I am
> learning : )

You have to scan through the list and look for that sequence, e.g.

   for i in xrange(len(mylist) - 2):
      if mylist[i:i+3] == ['Rita','Sue','Bob']:
         print 'They were found'
         break

There are fancier and more efficient ways to scan the list, but this
is the basic idea.


From richie at entrian.com  Fri Aug 20 06:20:33 2004
From: richie at entrian.com (Richie Hindle)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:20:33 +0100
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <cg2qus$54u$1@news.wrc.xerox.com>
References: <mailman.1937.1092903657.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4124d4a4$1@nntp0.pdx.net> <ob5Vc.4397$Jn5.1001@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<cg2qus$54u$1@news.wrc.xerox.com>
Message-ID: <umjbi0lut6v98d000d3kgrf4juhvs0lbrq@4ax.com>


[Mark, quoting "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!"]
> Well, Mr. Frankel, who started this program, began to suffer from the
> computer disease that anybody who works with computers now knows
> about. [...] the /delight/ in being able to see how much you can do.

I wonder, what is the average level of infection with this disease among
Python programmers relative to the rest of the programming world?

Is there a test for it?  Number of cool but unfinished projects?

Is there a cure?  Do we want one?

-- 
Richie Hindle
richie at entrian.com



From sholden at holdenweb.com  Mon Aug 30 20:09:41 2004
From: sholden at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 20:09:41 -0400
Subject: how to change a factory use of rfc822.Message to mhlib.Message
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.27.18.47.53.772876@yahoo.com>
References: <pan.2004.08.27.18.47.53.772876@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4133C1C5.8010609@holdenweb.com>

John Doe wrote:

> I've never used a factory and would like to get some help.
> The class
> mailbox.UnixMailbox has a defination for a factory.
> 
> __init__(self, fp, factory=<class rfc822.Message>)
> 
> where fp is a file pointer. 
> 
> I don't want to use rfc822.Message. I'd like to use mhlib.Message instead.
> 
> rfc822.Message requires:
> __init__(self, fp, seekable=1)
> 
> mhlib.Message requires:
> __init__(self, f, n, fp=None)
> 
> where f think the is a folder name. I've seen '.'  used.
> (The documentation is very unclear here). And 'n' is the seekable.
> 
> How do I call mailbox.UnixMailbox( fp ... ) with mhlib.Message?


You'll need to write a "wrapper" class or function around mhlib.Message 
to make it look sufficiently similar to rfc822.Message. Then you provide 
the wrapper as the factory argument when you create your UnixMailbox.

Clearly the __init__() signature of whatever factory you provide has to 
match that of rfc822.Message otherwise you'll get an error when the 
mailbox code tries to create a message instance.

regards
  Steve


From amajorel at teezer.fr  Sat Aug 28 10:55:37 2004
From: amajorel at teezer.fr (Andre Majorel)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:55:37 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4PGdnfsOfdDPi63cRVn-tA@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <slrncj1745.t5q.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>

On 2004-08-28, Rob Warnock <rpw3 at rpw3.org> wrote:
> Pascal Bourguignon  <spam at mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> +---------------
>| $ telnet xahlee.org 80;
>| Trying 208.186.130.4...
>| Connected to xahlee.org.
>| Escape character is '^]'.
>| GET / HTTP/1.1
>| 
>| HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request
>| Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:35:52 GMT
>| Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
>|         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> +---------------
>
> So are you complaining about the fact that his hosting provider
> preloaded RedHat Fedora with Apache 2.0 for him?

There is no shortage of Windows-based hosting companies, so why
didn't he go there ? Whatever your opinions, it's best to put
your money where your mouth is if you expect to be taken
seriously.

-- 
Andr? Majorel <URL:http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/>
"See daddy ? All the keys are in alphabetical order now."


From ben at benlast.com  Tue Aug 17 11:46:28 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:46:28 +0100
Subject: Newbie question about file input
In-Reply-To: <cft6vv$khm$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPAEAOCEAA.ben@benlast.com>

split() delimits on sequences of whitespace characters, not just spaces, so:
>>>"\n".split()
[]
>>>"".split()
[]
>>>
...both give the same result; an empty list.

>From the documentation:
split( s[, sep[, maxsplit]])

Return a list of the words of the string s. If the optional second argument
sep is absent or None, the words are separated by arbitrary strings of
whitespace characters (space, tab, newline, return, formfeed). If the second
argument sep is present and not None, it specifies a string to be used as
the word separator. The returned list will then have one more item than the
number of non-overlapping occurrences of the separator in the string. The
optional third argument maxsplit defaults to 0. If it is nonzero, at most
maxsplit number of splits occur, and the remainder of the string is returned
as the final element of the list (thus, the list will have at most
maxsplit+1 elements).

regards
b

> -----Original Message-----
> From: python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org
> [mailto:python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org]On Behalf Of
> Aaron Deskins
> Sent: 17 August 2004 16:08
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Re: Newbie question about file input
>
>
> Christopher T King wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Aaron Deskins wrote:
> >
> >
> >>    Also, what exactly is stored when a blank line is read by the
> >>readline command? A zero, blank, or what???
> >
> >
> > readline() always includes the '\n' that terminates the line, so any
> > 'blank' line that is read will be returned as a simply '\n'.  The only
> > time readline() won't return a line terminated with '\n' is if the last
> > line of the file isn't terminated with '\n' (common on
> Windows), in which
> > context a blank line is meaningless.
> >
> So why does a linesplit fail after the program reads a blank line (or a
> '\n')? Is this simply because there's no way to assign the variable '\n' ?
>
> --
> Aaron Deskins
> Graduate Student
> Chemical Engineering
> Purdue University
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 11:06:18 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 01:06:18 +1000
Subject: Is it a bug (or a feature)?
In-Reply-To: <tW%Wc.22419$v86.11990@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <mailman.2348.1093434827.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<tW%Wc.22419$v86.11990@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082508067b2240e0@mail.gmail.com>

This looks like a bug. Please open a bug on SF, with the example code.


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Wed Aug 11 13:01:09 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:01:09 GMT
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <phsSc.3096$M8.1284@fe2.texas.rr.com>

BTW, this syntax is currently listed on the Python MoinMoin as option J2.
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/PythonDecorators

-- Paul




From __peter__ at web.de  Fri Aug 20 14:40:33 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:40:33 +0200
Subject: classes are objects... so how can we custom print them: we need
	a classmethod syntax
References: <b68d2f19.0408201011.7b5eab21@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cg5gj1$f2h$01$1@news.t-online.com>

Neil Zanella wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> In Python, classes are objects. But there is no way to custom print a
> class object. This would require some syntax such as the one commented out
> below: With the current "foo = classmethod(foo)" mechanism custom printing
> for class objects is not possible.
> 
> #!/usr/bin/python
> 
> class Foo:
>   def __str__(self):
>     return "foo"
>   #def classmethod __str__(cls):
>   #  return "pythons bite"
> 
> foo = Foo()
> s = "hello %s!" % foo # custom text here
> print s
> 
> print Foo # no custom text here possible it seems, unless we call
>           # a staticmethod such as Foo.printMe()
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Neil

Classes are objects. You have to define the __str__() method in the object's
class - for a class that would be the metaclass. Now here:

>>> class FooType(type):
...     def __str__(self):
...             return "custom text for class %s" % self.__name__
...
>>> class Foo:
...     __metaclass__ = FooType
...     def __str__(self):
...             return "custom text for %s instance" %
self.__class__.__name__
...
>>> print Foo()
custom text for Foo instance
>>> print Foo
custom text for class Foo
>>>

Peter



From tim.hochberg at ieee.org  Wed Aug 25 20:57:27 2004
From: tim.hochberg at ieee.org (Tim Hochberg)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:57:27 -0700
Subject: numarray speed question
In-Reply-To: <144d0df.0408251616.5758d6e7@posting.google.com>
References: <953AD3D0Didtoken@128.91.2.239>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408040845120.27254-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>	<953C4DD4idtoken@128.91.2.239>	<qnkr7qluxuy.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>	<144d0df.0408070828.338f8c19@posting.google.com>	<qnkn015ujoh.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>	<9540516Didtoken@128.91.2.239>	<qnkisbrv8r9.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
	<144d0df.0408251616.5758d6e7@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgjchq$5h4$1@sea.gmane.org>

grv575 wrote:
> Is it true that python uses doubles for all it's internal floating
> point arithmetic 

Yes.

even if you're using something like numarray's
> Complex32?  

No. Numarray is an extension module and can use whatever numeric types 
it feels like. Float32 for instance is an array of C floats (assuming 
floats are 32 bits on your box, which they almost certainly are).


Is it possible to do single precision ffts in numarray or
> no?

I believe so, but I'm not sure off the top of my head. I recommend that 
you ask on numpy-discussion <numpy-discussion at lists.sourceforge.net> or 
peek at the implementation. It's possible that all FFTs are done double 
precision, but I don't think so.

-tim

> 
> cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca (David M. Cooke) wrote in message news:<qnkisbrv8r9.fsf at arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>...
> 
>>At some point, grv575 at hotmail.com (grv) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca (David M. Cooke) wrote in 
>>><qnkn015ujoh.fsf at arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>:
>>>
>>>
>>>>At some point, grv575 at hotmail.com (grv575) wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>>>>>Heh.  Try timing the example I gave (a += 5) using byteswapped vs.
>>>>>byteswap().  It's fairly fast to do the byteswap.  If you go the
>>>>>interpretation way (byteswapped) then all subsequent array operations
>>>>>are at least an order of magnitude slower (5 million elements test
>>>>>example).
>>>>
>>>>You mean something like
>>>>a = arange(0, 5000000, type=Float64).byteswapped()
>>>>a += 5
>>>>
>>>>vs.
>>>>a = arange(0, 5000000, type=Float64)
>>>>a.byteswap()
>>>>a += 5
>>>>
>>>>? I get the same time for the a+=5 in each case -- and it's only twice
>>>>as slow as operating on a non-byteswapped version. Note that numarray
>>>>calls the ufunc add routine with non-byteswapped numbers; it takes a
>>>>block, orders it correctly, then adds 5 to that, does the byteswap on
>>>>the result, and stores that back. (You're not making a full copy of
>>>>the array; just a large enough section at a time to do useful work.)
>>>
>>>It must be using some sort of cache for the multiplication.  Seems like on 
>>>the first run it takes 6 seconds and subsequently .05 seconds for either 
>>>version.
>>
>>There is. The ufunc for the addition gets cached, so the first time
>>takes longer (but not that much???)
>>
>>
>>>>Maybe what you need is a package designed for *small* arrays ( < 1000).
>>>>Simple C wrappers; just C doubles and ints, no byteswap, non-aligned.
>>>>Maybe a fixed number of dimensions. Probably easy to throw something
>>>>together using Pyrex. Or, wrap blitz++ with boost::python.
>>>
>>>I'll check out Numeric first.  Would rather have a drop-in solution (which 
>>>hopefully will get more optimized in future releases) rather than hacking 
>>>my own wrappers.  Is it some purist mentality that's keeping numarray from 
>>>dropping to C code for the time-critical routines?  Or can a lot of the 
>>>speed issues be attributed to the overhead of using objects for the library 
>>>(numarray does seem more general)?
>>
>>It's the object overhead in numarray. The developers moved stuff up to
>>Python, where it's more flexible to handle. Numeric is faster for
>>small arrays (say < 3000), but numarray is much better at large
>>arrays. I have some speed comparisions at
>>http://arbutus.mcmaster.ca/dmc/numpy/
>>
>>I did a simple wrapper using Pyrex the other night for a vector of
>>doubles (it just does addition, so it's not much good :-) It's twice
>>as fast as Numeric, so I might give it a further try.



From justin__devine at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 26 10:46:38 2004
From: justin__devine at hotmail.com (Justin)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 07:46:38 -0700
Subject: Specific request with code example (encapsulation) __init__ problems
Message-ID: <cgkt4e$lav@odah37.prod.google.com>

On the advice of some members of this group I have decided to post a
very specific question / problem with a code example.  My problem is
that my wxWidgets are created in the __init__ function of a panel.
(This is the way wx demos showed, I am brand new so I copies what they
did)  my problem is now it appears that my widgets are completely
encapsulated within this __init__ class and I cannot get at them.  Here
is an example of me trying to change the labels on a radiobox (all the
code that doesn't matter has been taken out)  you can see it all if you
like.  If the indentation is hard to understand due to the posting
syntax please let me know.  And thanks for your help in advance.
The indentation quickly is 1 class "Gmainpanel"  two functions
"__init__()" and changelabel()

class Gmainpanel(wx.Panel):
__shared_state = {}
def __init__(self, parent):
self.__dict__ = self.__shared_state
wx.Panel.__init__(self, parent, -1)

#Make the Radiobox
label_pickle = open("labels.dat", "r")
labellist = cPickle.load(label_pickle)
label_pickle.close()

sizer = wx.BoxSizer(wx.HORIZONTAL)

self.rb = wx.RadioBox(self,-1, "QuickSites", (10, 215), (425,
70),labellist , 5,wx.RA_SPECIFY_COLS)

self.Bind(wx.EVT_RADIOBOX, EvtRadioBox, self.rb)

self.rb.SetToolTip(wx.ToolTip("You can select a specific
service to search"))
sizer.Add(self.rb, 0, wx.ALL, 20)
self.rb.SetSizer(sizer)

def changelabel(self):
self.rb.SetLabel(1, "test change")



From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 30 06:59:40 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 12:59:40 +0200
Subject: about presicion
References: <8f17f4bc.0408261434.1a73e874@posting.google.com>
	<2e363c08.0408261912.2358a016@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.2518.1093611862.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<8f17f4bc.0408281303.3cfb4199@posting.google.com>
	<JN6dnW6HuNiU06zcRVn-pA@powergate.ca>
	<20040829041630.28913.00001771@mb-m26.aol.com>
Message-ID: <1gjc13i.rx89x319njqe2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Mensanator <mensanator at aol.compost> wrote:

> >Subject: Re: about presicion
> >From: Peter Hansen peter at engcorp.com 
> >Date: 8/28/04 10:31 PM Central Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <JN6dnW6HuNiU06zcRVn-pA at powergate.ca>
> >
> >Ali wrote:
> >
> >> The decimal module comes with python 2.4? I have 2.3, :(, what do I do?
> >
> >The obvious answer is, well, obvious.  The real question is
> >what's stopping you from upgrading?
> 
> I just tried it and found out it's not compatible with gmpy.

By "it" do you mean Decimal, or Python 2.4 alpha 2?  I think gmpy should
build happily with the latter, and interoperate sensibly with Decimal
anyway -- as gmpy's author I'd be quite happy to fix gmpy if it's broken
in either respect.

> Of course, I wouldn't need gmpy to get big floats, but I
> would then lose all the math functions like linear congruence
> and modular inverse that my programs depend on.
> 
> So I, for one, will have to wait for the rest of the world to 
> catch up to 2.4.

2.4 is not currently recommended for production work (that's why it's in
Alpha -- very good for an alpha, but it's still not a final release).
But such support modules as gmpy need to get moving to support 2.4 in
order to be ready for it well before final release...


Alex


From pf_moore at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Aug 26 17:35:16 2004
From: pf_moore at yahoo.co.uk (Paul Moore)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:35:16 +0100
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <upt5dzip7.fsf@yahoo.co.uk>

"Robert Brewer" <fumanchu at amor.org> writes:

> The J2 proposal is as complete as it will ever be.
>
> http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html

Against.

I can't see anything to convince me this is better that pie-syntax
(which is in place, and complete, *right now*). And it still doesn't
specify the keyword - which means there's another argument waiting to
happen.

Paul
-- 
Instant gratification takes too long -- Carrie Fisher


From yzhang8 at rice.edu  Mon Aug 16 23:07:03 2004
From: yzhang8 at rice.edu (Ryan(Yang) Zhang)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 22:07:03 -0500
Subject: is it possible to create an object by its name in the run time
References: <PPidncd3ycQ1mbzcRVn-gg@comcast.com><cfrlid$1f8c$1@agate.berkeley.edu>
	<BAY24-DAV135EFk2H3b0001e495@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <003d01c48407$45aeaf10$6400a8c0@offer>

> Hi all,
>        I wonder if it is possible to create an object of func, class or
> method in the run time by it's name? To make it more clear, let me show
you
> an example: I parsed the python code and found a function with name 'len'.
I
> want to know if it is a build-in func(where can I look up?). If so, ignore
> it otherwise I want to find out which module is it defined in. All I know
is
> the name (which is a string), and all the modules that this program have
> imported. In the same way, I also need to process the class and methods
> call. I wonder if it is possible? I will appreciate your help very much!!
>
> -Ryan
> -- 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>



From ville at spammers.com  Fri Aug 20 10:37:14 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 17:37:14 +0300
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision !! IMPORTANT THREAD !!
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<du7hdqyxezw.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>
	<LtnVc.4602$Jn5.465@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<du7vffdj38m.fsf_-_@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>
	<MVnVc.4611$Jn5.1612@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <du7n00pj2p1.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Paul" == Paul McGuire <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> writes:

    >> Yup - for those just joining in, post somewhere in this thread, it
    >> involves voting that all pythonistas know & love (along with the
    >> associated grain of salt that goes with it here in
    >> pythonland). Instructions in the root message.

    Paul> Will you vote now?   :)

Did already, on the thread w/o subject line change (I wasn't sure
whether your script/whatever would handle changing the subject line).

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From project5 at redrival.net  Tue Aug 31 02:41:32 2004
From: project5 at redrival.net (Andrei)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 06:41:32 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Intelisence
References: <43SYc.121080$UTP.113615@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<ch0srg$87o@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <loom.20040831T083605-943@post.gmane.org>

Jonathan  Ellis <jbellis <at> gmail.com> writes:

> > Is there any inelisence IDE (like visual studio) for python?
> 
> There are several; Komodo from ActiveState is IMO the best of the lot.

It's harder to do this for Python than for less dynamic languages. The most
impressive I've seen is in WingIDE 2. I find it rather expensive though, at
least for people who don't use it professionally. It's also less pretty than
Komodo. More naive auto-completion/call tips you can also find in editors like
SciTE and Spe.





From lbates at swamisoft.com  Tue Aug 24 16:14:04 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 15:14:04 -0500
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <mailman.2286.1093364988.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <I82dnfGWW_YWPLbcRVn-tA@comcast.com>

You are asking the same question I asked in a separate
posting to c.l.p (but apparently more clearly).

I thought about using:

    class Foo:
       """ This is the docstring for class Foo. """
       __decorators__ = {'metaclass': 'M'}
       # body of class goes here


    def baz():
       """ This is the docstring for function baz. """
       __decorators__= {'features': ['synchronized', 'memoized'],
         'docstring':'This is the docstring for function baz. '}
       # body of function goes here.

This seems extendable (e.g. you can add keys to __decorators__
dictionary without disturbing existing keys) and "sort of"
parallels __dict__ which everyone understands.

Some of these discussions are so far over my head that I thought
my idea didn't somehow make any sense at all.  Then I saw your post.

Thanks,
Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.


"Paul Morrow" <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2286.1093364988.5135.python-list at python.org...
> ...that they warrant an entirely new syntax?  It seems that they are
> very similar in a very significant way --- they alter the default
> behavior of something.  IMO, it's not a stretch to say that they
> 'parallel' metaclasses; that they are to functions/methods what
> metaclasses are to classes.  So why don't they share a similar syntax?
>
>     class Foo:
>        """ This is the docstring for class Foo. """
>        __metaclass__ = M
>        # body of class goes here
>
>
>     def baz():
>        """ This is the docstring for function baz. """
>        __features__ = synchronized, memoized
>        # body of function goes here.
>
>
> I personally find the above baz function aesthetically appealing.  Does
> anyone else feel this way?  For contrast, below is the same function
> written in the proposed A1 and J2 [*] syntaxes (respectively).
>
>
>     @synchronized
>     @memoized
>     @doc(""" This is the docstring for function baz. """)
>     def baz():
>        # body of function goes here.
>
>
>     decorate:
>        """ This is the docstring for function baz. """
>        synchronized
>        memoized
>     def baz():
>        # body of function goes here.
>
>
> * if J2 is accepted, the name 'decorate' may be replaced with some other
> keyword, but I believe that the structure of the syntax would stay the
same.
>
> Paul
>




From dfan at harmonixmusic.com  Fri Aug 13 15:12:31 2004
From: dfan at harmonixmusic.com (Dan Schmidt)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 15:12:31 -0400
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<mailman.1583.1092378965.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnchpf2s.7ld.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<mailman.1614.1092408264.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnchq1c4.am7.npat@gray.efault.net>
Message-ID: <uzn4yrgww.fsf@turangalila.harmonixmusic.com>

Nick Patavalis <npat at efault.net> writes:

| To cut the thread short, what I mean is that an application that has
| to do something like:
| 
|    for i in range(N):
|        a[i] = b[i] + c[i]
| 
| is bound to be 10 to 100 times slower than the equivalent coded in
| C.

Although note that (at least by my timing)

   a = map( operator.add, b, c )

is 3 times as fast as your Python version, bringing the code up to
being only 3 to 33 times slower than C.

I'm sure that pyrex could bring the speed up a heck of a lot more, too.

-- 
http://www.dfan.org


From adonisv at DELETETHISTEXTearthlink.net  Wed Aug 11 12:15:57 2004
From: adonisv at DELETETHISTEXTearthlink.net (Adonis)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:15:57 GMT
Subject: Another decorator proposal.
Message-ID: <1DrSc.21247$Jp6.6525@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>

How about something to this effect:

class Foo:
    def static bar():
        ...

or

class Foo:
    def __init__(self):
        ...

def Foo bar():
    ...

Pros/Cons?

Adonis




From fredrik at pythonware.com  Sat Aug  7 19:31:06 2004
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 01:31:06 +0200
Subject: Image manipulation library under a GPL-compatible license?
References: <2nl3suF1vntdU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <cf3okm$o2o$1@sea.gmane.org>

"Leif K-Brooks" wrote:

> I need to do some simple image editing (pretty much just scaling) in a
> GPLed program. Unfortunatly, both of the Python libraries for image
> editing that I found (gdmodule and PIL) are under the GPL-incompatible
> original BSD license. Is there another library under a friendlier library?

sorry, but you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking
about.  PIL uses the original Python license, about which FSF
has the following to say:

    This is a free software license and is compatible
    with the GNU GPL.

    http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html

and before you spread more license FUD, maybe you should
learn why the *original* BSD license is not considered to be
GNU-compatible:

    http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/bsd.html

</F>





From jgrahn-nntq at algonet.se  Sun Aug  8 13:56:25 2004
From: jgrahn-nntq at algonet.se (Jorgen Grahn)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 17:56:25 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Paul Graham on Python hackers
References: <3064b51d.0408061127.32536826@posting.google.com>
	<n3fRc.191$%y3.3116@news4.e.nsc.no>
Message-ID: <slrnchcq7k.nv3.jgrahn-nntq@frailea.sa.invalid>

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 03:10:32 +0200, Baalbek <thats at it.com> wrote:
> beliavsky at aol.com wrote:
>> also choosing a community. The programmers you'll be able to hire to
>> work on a Java project won't be as smart as the ones you could get to
>> work on a project written in Python. [2] And the quality of your
> 
> I prefer Java and Python alike, I simply love those two languages.....
> 
> So, am I smart, or not as smart?

Smarter than the people who proclaim that Java Is The One Language,
probably. Or the people who learned Java by default and never looked beyond
it.

> What a stupid assertion to make; this Paul Graham has just proven 
> himself to be an ass.........

Yeah - that article was enjoyable to me, since I loathe Java and it's users.
The only problem I had with it was that his reasoning was bogus ... ;-)

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <jgrahn@      ''If All Men Were Brothers,
\X/                algonet.se>    Would You Let One Marry Your Sister?''


From XXNOSPAMXX at gibts.net  Fri Aug 20 10:10:35 2004
From: XXNOSPAMXX at gibts.net (Thomas Reichelt)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:10:35 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2omevcFccudoU1@uni-berlin.de>

Paul McGuire wrote:

> My vote is:  J2  J2  C1

My vote is: J2 J2 C2

-- 
greetz tom


From len-1 at telus.net  Sat Aug 21 13:24:35 2004
From: len-1 at telus.net (Lenard Lindstrom)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 17:24:35 GMT
Subject: __metaclass__ and __author__ are already decorators
References: <cg7mo9$r8r$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<mailman.2109.1093101861.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <pt5ko172.fsf@telus.net>

Andrew Durdin <adurdin at gmail.com> writes:

> __metaclass__ on the other hand is a magic attribute. I haven't worked
> out the details, but I have the feeling that what a metaclass does to
> a class is not replicable merely by decorating the class; in other
> words, that:
> 
>   class Foo:
>       __metaclass__ = Bar
> 
> is *not* equivalent to
> 
>   class Foo:
>       pass
> 
>   Foo = Baz(Foo)
> 
> for any definitions of Bar and Baz. This is just my intuition, however.

Used within a class decoration __metaclass__ is just another class attribute,
but it does have special meaning to the class factory. It names a new factory
to use in place of the default one. And its effects are inherited. So for:

class SubFoo(Foo):
    ...

SubFoo also gets metaclass Bar. Foo = Baz(Foo) would not work that way.
And yes Bar and Baz would be different. Bar would take three arguments, a
class name, a list of base classes, and a dictionary of class attributes.
Baz would extract this information from an existing class object.

Lenard Lindstrom
<len-l at telus.net>




From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Thu Aug  5 08:34:09 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 05:34:09 -0700
Subject: Scope Problem
References: <cet6eh$tvq$1@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <1091709635.62853@news.commspeed.net>


"Nickolay Kolev" <nmkolev at uni-bonn.de> wrote in message
news:cet6eh$tvq$1 at f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de...
> Hi all,
>
> I have set to implementing a few basic algorithms in Python serving a
> twofold purpose: learning the algorithms and learning Python a little
> better.
>
> I have however encountered a strange (for me anyway) scoping problem.
>
> Here is my implementation of linear search as a method in a class, hence
> all the self's (self.sequence is the sorted sequence we are searching in
> and value is, well, the value we are searching for):
>
> def linearSearch(self, value, index = None):
>
>          if not index:
>              index = 0
>
>          try:
>
>              if self.sequence[index] == value:
>
>                  return index
>
>              else:
>
>                  self.linearSearch(value, index + 1)
>
>          except IndexError:
>
>               return -1
>
>
> My problem is that this method always returns None regardless of whether
> the value was found or not. If I put print statements in there, all the
> values and indices are printed correctly though. Actually I have another
> parameter to this method called debug, if this is set, the single
> comparison steps are printed to STDOUT (omitted above to avoid clutter).
>
> What am I doing wrong?
>
> Many thanks in advance,
> Nicky


Try useing the self keyword,

def linearSearch(self, value, index = None):
>          self.index = index
>
>          if not self.index :
>              self.index = 0
>
>          try:
>
>              if self.sequence[self.index ] == value:
>
>                  return self.index
>
>              else:
>
>                  self.linearSearch(value, self.index + 1)
>
>          except IndexError:
>
>               return -1

Tom




From max at alcyone.com  Sat Aug 21 18:22:04 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 15:22:04 -0700
Subject: Mind.py
References: <41220b22@news.victoria.tc.ca> <4122796E.9652CCAE@alcyone.com>
	<dsLVc.8799$3O3.665@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4127CB0C.E4F49160@alcyone.com>

threeseas wrote:

> Erik Max Francis wrote:
>
> > "Arthur T. Murray" wrote:
> >
> > > Now, suppose that you wanted to write an AI in Python that would
> > > implement your mind-model and allow it to grow, mutate, develop.
> > > Here is one possible scenario.
> >
> > http://www.nothingisreal.com/mentifex
> 
> its a good thing we all use our minds alike, huh?
> 
> Oh wait, so why doesn't Arthur slander or libel himself?

It's like an epic battle between Racter and Eliza!

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ Who shall stand guard to the guards themselves?
    -- Juvenal


From martindemello at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 23 10:30:14 2004
From: martindemello at yahoo.com (Martin DeMello)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:30:14 GMT
Subject: serial iteration over several lists
References: <tgOVc.176766$gE.1703@pd7tw3no>
	<1b5c4527.0408212257.5c9c18b4@posting.google.com>
	<zd2Wc.184115$J06.164832@pd7tw2no>
	<IdKdnQYF1KTYK7XcRVn-vw@cablespeedwa.com>
Message-ID: <WbnWc.195811$J06.89954@pd7tw2no>

Jeffrey Froman <Jeffrey at fro.man> wrote:
> Martin DeMello wrote:
> 
> > Thanks - that looks like an excellent starting point. Has there been any
> > work done on bidirectional iterators?
> 
> You could emulate one by maintaining a counter for the current index into
> the imaginary flattened list, and iterating up to that index with each
> prev() call and just past it with each next(). This of course requires that
> you basically start from the beginning of your nested list each time
> though, and I'm not sure if it would be more or less efficient than
> indexing into a pre-flattened list in memory.

I ended up just maintaining a few list indexes, and writing code to wrap
them around properly - turned out to be the simplest way since
bidirectionality was more important than iterator-like support.

> One more suggestion -- if you use a recursive generator for your iteration,
> you can then use it with a list nested to arbitrary depth, something like:
> 
> #############################################
> 
> def deep_iter(nested_list):
>     for x in nested_list:
>         if isinstance(x, list):
>             for n in deep_iter(x):
>                 yield n
>         else:
>             yield x
> 
> #############################################

I thought of that, but again it proved nigh impossible to backtrack
cleanly over. The other idea I had was to maintain two iterators, one
going forwards and one going backwards, and reinitialize them as needed.
For example, if I wanted to do that over the list [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9]
I'd set forward to 1 and reverse to 9, then iterate forward as long as
next was called, then when prev was called, reinitialize reverse to
wherever the index had reached and call its next method.

martin


From me at privacy.net  Mon Aug 16 11:48:49 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Richard Hanson)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:48:49 -0700
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1637.1092428855.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<30260531.0408131853.18ec2446@posting.google.com>
	<LIqdnd7Jz9Mspr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<3ke1i05c3cq93vhdmdigj3pudru9n99a4j@4ax.com>
	<fI2dnUCPMP6MSb3cRVn-vA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <9fl1i0to8jbvo1nva7pk1o819hi96knfr1@4ax.com>

Peter Hansen wrote:

>Richard Hanson wrote:
>> For me, a not insignificant part of Python's genius *is* the
>> indentation. When I used C and C++ I was a stickler (pedant? :-)
>> ) for "proper" indentation -- which was a PITA. So -- I took to
>> Python's indentation like a duck to water.
>
>That's been exactly my situation as well, which leads me to
>theorize that those who react most strongly against Python's
>syntactically significant indentation are those who were the
>least consistent or, uh, "anal" about making sure their code
>conformed to conventions.

;-)

obsessive-compulsively y'rs,
Richard

-- 
R Hanson [The mangled email addie below works.]
sick<P0INT>ole<PERI0D>fart<PIE_DEC0_SYNTAX>newsguy<MARK>com


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 17 22:20:01 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 22:20:01 -0400
Subject: simple Thread question
In-Reply-To: <1d6cdae3.0408171648.1b8767ea@posting.google.com>
References: <b8001e9f.0408031151.4f617c6@posting.google.com>
	<1d6cdae3.0408171648.1b8767ea@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <l82dnQLW7bZOIb_cRVn-qQ@powergate.ca>

Beeyah wrote:

> adeger at netlibrary.com (adeger) wrote in message news:<b8001e9f.0408031151.4f617c6 at posting.google.com>...
> 
>>	def run(self, name):
>>		import time
>>		for i in range(1,11):
>>			print 'thread ', name, ' instance ', str(i)
>>			time.sleep(1)
> 
> You're importing the time module for every TestThr() object you
> create, that's no good. You only need to import the module once, at
> the beginning of the file like you've done with threading.

While it's true that that is all that's needed, it is not
required, and doesn't really provide any performance
improvements.  I often do the above sort of thing where I
use a given module in only one place, especially when using
threads where it feels subtly cleaner to defer loading of
some modules until the thread actually starts.

Modules are really ever imported only once and after that
the "import" statement amounts to retrieving a reference
by looking it up in the sys.modules dictionary.  In the
case of a builtin module like "time", there isn't even
any significant overhead involved in the first import,
as there might be with a .py module (where the timestamp
encoded in the .pyc file is compared with the timestamp
of the .py file, and the .py file is recompiled if
necessary, and then a new module object is created and
the bytecode is executed in its namespace, etc).

-Peter


From grante at visi.com  Wed Aug 18 16:18:36 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 20:18:36 GMT
Subject: Newbie question about file input
References: <cfqj3s$cti$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <cft2f9$ii0$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408171010590.548-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
	<cft6vv$khm$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
	<4122328e$0$8079$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<cfvtf9$sku$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
	<pan.2004.08.18.19.18.24.431527@gmx.net>
	<cg0a9r$5or$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
Message-ID: <4123b99c$0$65601$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-18, Aaron Deskins <ndeskins at ecn.purdue.edu> wrote:
> Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch wrote:
>
>> 
>> A line without anything but whitespace characters "splits" to an empty
>> list.
>> 
>
> Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware that "\n" is whitespace. I'm still a 
> programming beginner and learning everyday! Any other whitespace 
> characters I should know about?

Usually space, carriage-return, horizontal-tab, vertical-tab,
and form-feed.  You may want to consule the documentation on
the split() string method to find out what it considers white
space.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  .. are the STEWED
                                  at               PRUNES still in the HAIR
                               visi.com            DRYER?


From __peter__ at web.de  Fri Aug 20 02:29:22 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:29:22 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <cg45o2$6ms$07$1@news.t-online.com>

My vote: 

J2 J2 K

Preferred keyword: transform

I could live with the pie, though.

Peter



From nospam at nospam.com  Thu Aug  5 11:15:44 2004
From: nospam at nospam.com (3c273)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 08:15:44 -0700
Subject: Need help on how to use Pymedia!
References: <AXgQc.508$nx2.344@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <cetiuv01vmi@enews4.newsguy.com>


"CptPicard" <jpmorichon at earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:AXgQc.508$nx2.344 at newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Hi,
> I am currently trying to use pymedia so to get the following informations
> (author, song title, ...) from a mp3 file.
> The documentation I downloaded is quite limited : It gives some clues on
how
> to get that information (method getInfo() from pymedia.audio.acodec).
> However, it does not explain what has to be done prior to that call.
> I downloaded pycar but it did not help me.
>
> Could someone give me a more detailed documentation on pymedia or some
clues
> on how to get the information I need ?
>
> Thanks for your help
>
Hi,
I have never used pymedia but section 6.7 of the "Dive Into Python" tutorial
describes a class for getting mp3 file information. It is quite simple and
if I recall correctly, it worked perfectly when I tried it. HTH.
Louis




From monnier at iro.umontreal.ca  Thu Aug 26 15:20:26 2004
From: monnier at iro.umontreal.ca (Stefan Monnier)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 19:20:26 GMT
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <jwv7jrlyaee.fsf-monnier+comp.unix.programmer@gnu.org>

> I'm starting my own cult to exterminate morons on this earth.

Sounds suicidal to me,


        Stefan


From johnfkeeling at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  2 15:52:20 2004
From: johnfkeeling at yahoo.com (John Keeling)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 12:52:20 -0700
Subject: Timing Difference: insert vs. append & reverse
References: <35b736b9.0408020330.53b24ed3@posting.google.com>
	<Xns953983065EEC6duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <35b736b9.0408021152.4c1ab752@posting.google.com>

Duncan,
> A list is implemented by an array of pointers to the objects it contains.
That explains it.

> If you expected insert to be faster, perhaps you thought that Python used a 
> linked-list implementation. It doesn't do this, 

Yes, that is how I was thinking. It is interesting to see how
functions may perform very differently from how we may initially
expect. I've also noted an approximate two time difference between
"del list[index] and list.pop(index)". I know that they do different
things (the return value from pop), however in many places my code
uses pop and ignores the return value when it would be faster to use
del. I am making changes based on these observations now.
Thanks,
John


From bokr at oz.net  Sun Aug  1 14:19:19 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 1 Aug 2004 18:19:19 GMT
Subject: transforming a list into a string
References: <pan.2004.07.31.12.27.23.547000@hotmail.com>
	<roy-982174.13075831072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<cegqdu$2fb$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<mailman.1020.1091310303.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-FDE83B.19595731072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1022.1091319366.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-C8B243.20435231072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1023.1091322043.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cejc77$7g2$0@216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

On Sun, 1 Aug 2004 11:00:32 +1000, Andrew Bennetts <andrew-pythonlist at puzzling.org> wrote:
[...]
>
>It's a two-liner, not a one-liner (although it could be made into a
>one-liner with enough contortions...).
>
Another contortion ;-)

 >>> items = ['1','2','7','8','12','13']
assumed defined as before, then one line:

 >>> ''.join([i%2 and c+'},' or '{'+c+',' for i,c in enumerate(items)])[:-1]
 '{1,2},{7,8},{12,13}'

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Mon Aug 23 14:35:54 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 20:35:54 +0200
Subject: Finding a class' superclasses
References: <HBF.20040823wd70@bombur.uio.no>
	<m3hdqtiuqr.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040823vxiw@bombur.uio.no>

Michael Hudson wrote:
>Hallvard B Furuseth <h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no> writes:
>> How do I find a class' immediate superclasses?
>> (...)
> 
> D.__bases__?

Aah.  Thanks.  And now that I know what to look for, I see it right
where it's supposed to be and where I didn't see it last time in the
Python reference:-)

-- 
Hallvard


From richie at entrian.com  Wed Aug 18 08:08:58 2004
From: richie at entrian.com (Richie Hindle)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 13:08:58 +0100
Subject: anonymous function?
In-Reply-To: <efHUc.217674$UI5.10803319@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
References: <efHUc.217674$UI5.10803319@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
Message-ID: <tgh6i09jv9sd1dm1pkqinvaihkuf2f1g2m@4ax.com>


[Benedict]
> t = threading.Timer(10.0, sendCheckCommand() )
> ...
> TypeError: 'NoneType' object is not callable

You are calling the sendCheckCommand function and passing its return value
(None) to threading.Timer().  You should say:

> t = threading.Timer(10.0, sendCheckCommand)

instead.

-- 
Richie Hindle
richie at entrian.com



From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 12:45:35 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 09:45:35 -0700
Subject: J2 paper 0.2.1
References: <mailman.2180.1093238695.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<10ijfibd8qo84b5@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <d11dcfba.0408230845.f8931c8@posting.google.com>

"Robert Brewer" <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote in message news:<mailman.2180.1093238695.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> The first draft of the J2 proposal is ready. You can read it here:
> http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html

Outstanding job here.  Your arguments are very clear and thorough and
I think you defend J2 against pretty much every objection that was
brought up against it.  I especially liked the point about the
adjectival/dependent uses of keywords already in Python -- I was
undecided about the keyword before, but I could definitely rally
around "using" now.

Minor nits:
* I might write "if/else/elif" as "if/elif/else".  (Google seems to
agree with me -- ~900 hits for the first and ~2700 for the second.)

* The point about expressions (as opposed to statements) occuring only
within suites was a little unclear.  Some things that might help:

1) "Further, it is almost exclusively within suites that one currently
finds [bare] expressions which are not statements."  Just to make sure
we're not confusing expressions in, say, the test of a while-loop,
with the use of /bare/ expressions you're talking about here.

2) Make clear that you are talking about /standard/ usage of
expressions -- I can, of course, write an expression like, say, a list
comprehension, at the top of any module I like, but I'm not very
likely to do so.  That is, Python /allows/ expressions pretty much
anywhere, but they aren't generally /used/ everywhere.

3) "Lambdas are another common example, albeit degenerate, of [a suite
containing] bare expressions."

4) It's a little unclear what "consequently" is referring back to. 
Maybe:
"[Given this precedent for using expressions in suites and the lack of
such precedent for non-suites,] a suite is a more appropriate and
consistent place (than normal linear code) in which to introduce a
series of decorator expressions."

* Tie the reasons for recommending "using" back a little more tightly
to the new keyword requirements above it:

1) "It emphasizes the dependent nature of decorators[, both in its
semantics and in its inability to 'stand alone' without the def
statement]."

2) "It 'reads correctly' in every use case, both for transformational
and annotative decorators."  (This one actually seems a lot like "It
emphasizes the generic nature of decorators."  Maybe a few more words
on what you mean by "generic" to explain the differences here?)


Well, thanks again for such outstanding work in such little time!

Steve


From d-hanst at online.no  Fri Aug 27 15:19:52 2004
From: d-hanst at online.no (Dag Hansteen)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 21:19:52 +0200
Subject: My IDLE editor wont work!
Message-ID: <001d01c48c6a$d4090740$4e01a8c0@dagan>

hi, I have a problem on my comp - I'm using win2000, and the IDLE editor won't open when I try to execute it.
I tried to uninstall the python versions(yes I had one older installed also) and reinstalled 2.3.4. That doesn't help.

Anyone have a clue...?

regards
Dag Hansteen
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From mwh at python.net  Thu Aug 12 08:18:03 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:18:03 GMT
Subject: [OT] Keyboard layout, was Re: PEP318
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<20040812090056.00001e31@titan>
	<cffdba$ko0$04$1@news.t-online.com> <du7pt5w5zkg.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>
Message-ID: <m3d61wo8hx.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Ville Vainio <ville at spammers.com> writes:

> Numbers like 8 and 9 are useless for coding - everything beyond 0
> and 1 implies a flawed design.

Snarf!

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
48. The best book on programming for the layman is "Alice in
    Wonderland"; but that's because it's the best book on
    anything for the layman.
  -- Alan Perlis, http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/perlis-alan/quotes.html


From geoff at variosoft.com  Sun Aug  8 03:22:56 2004
From: geoff at variosoft.com (Geoff Caplan)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 08:22:56 +0100
Subject: Compiling disutil modules on Windows
Message-ID: <13185971049.20040808082256@variosoft.com>

Neil,

NH>    You could try to use mingw:
NH> http://sebsauvage.net/python/mingw.html

I had spotted this page but it looks a bit daunting for someone with
no C skills. (Though the instructions do seem quite clear: thanks,
S?bastien!) Most people come to a very high level language like Python
because the *don't* want to muck around with stuff like gcc. I can see
this eating up time :-(

You've got to be grateful to Active State for producing such a
comprehensive and convenient distro, but does anyone know why they
have chosen an expensive and out-of-date commercial compiler? Why not
gcc, or at least MSVC++ 7, which is a free download?

For client-side stuff it's still impossible to avoid Windoze entirely,
for the time being at least. It's an important platform for Python, so
it would be good if the leading distro made this convenient. At
present the choice appears to be between forking out good $$$ to the
company that is covertly attacking Open Source through its proxy SCO
(not something I'm prepared to consider!), or to get involved in some
low-level hacking. This is surely not an ideal state of affairs?


------------------ 
Geoff Caplan
Vario Software Ltd
(+44) 121-515 1154 



From mcfletch at rogers.com  Wed Aug 18 09:58:11 2004
From: mcfletch at rogers.com (Mike C. Fletcher)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:58:11 -0400
Subject: metaclass ???
In-Reply-To: <20040818082245.89FEA1E4003@bag.python.org>
References: <20040818082245.89FEA1E4003@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <41236073.1000502@rogers.com>

BruceKL WhoH wrote:

>Hi,
>     I have just read David Mertz's Metaclass programming in Python,but I'm still confused.
>can someone show me an example to explain when metaclass is needed?
>  
>
In large part this is the question that my PyCon presentation was trying
to explore. If you're interested, you can find the presentation and
sample code here:
http://www.vrplumber.com/programming/

>     I think metaclass can be treated as a class factory,but how to specify the class generated? For example:
>  
>
See particularly the metainitialisation.py sample code for the
presentation, which does approximately what I think you're trying to do
with your example.

HTH,
Mike

________________________________________________
  Mike C. Fletcher
  Designer, VR Plumber, Coder
  http://www.vrplumber.com
  http://blog.vrplumber.com



From alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 15 22:22:41 2004
From: alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali)
Date: 15 Aug 2004 19:22:41 -0700
Subject: how to change the text in the title bar of the Tkinter windows
Message-ID: <8f17f4bc.0408151822.1be2de2e@posting.google.com>

When I open a window using the Tkinter GUI thing the title bar always
says "Tk". I would like to know how to change this. I would also like
to know how to cjange it on any other popup windows I may have. Please
help.


From sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au  Fri Aug 20 23:32:16 2004
From: sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au (Sam Holden)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 03:32:16 GMT
Subject: Why are strings immutable?
References: <chzVc.288437$a24.71659@attbi_s03>
Message-ID: <slrncidgi0.vmr.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 03:26:00 GMT,
	Brent W. Hughes <brent.hughes at comcast.net> wrote:
> I kind of hate to have to convert a string into a list, manipulate it, and
> then convert it back into a string.  Why not make strings mutable?

Not being able to use strings as dictionary keys would kind of suck :)

-- 
Sam Holden


From raims at dot.com  Wed Aug 18 18:22:30 2004
From: raims at dot.com (Lawrence Oluyede)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 00:22:30 +0200
Subject: multi-instance and classic singleton design patterns
References: <b68d2f19.0408181354.43821bd9@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <lwnfvmverlnj.13qyqp3htrls3$.dlg@40tude.net>

In data 18 Aug 2004 14:54:05 -0700, Neil Zanella ha scritto:

>  it seems to me that the
> former leads to less coding, so unless I can somehow package the
> singleton pattern in a superclass (so I don't have to code it
> explicityly in every singleton class I have), then I am more
> interested in the multi-instance singleton design pattern.

Seems that Alex Martelli coded a Borg implementation in Python
sometimes ago:
http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/66531

-- 
Lawrence (l dot oluyede at virgilio dot it)
"If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea."
from The Zen of Python by Tim Peters


From shane at techgame.net  Thu Aug  5 12:43:40 2004
From: shane at techgame.net (Shane Holloway (TG))
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 10:43:40 -0600
Subject: ANN: Dive Into Python published
In-Reply-To: <ceqs1j$909@odbk17.prod.google.com>
References: <ceqs1j$909@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <411263BC.4040504@techgame.net>

Mark,

You have done a wonderful job on this book.  I've looked over chapters 
as you have announced them, and I'm happy that you're finally done!  I 
look forward to using this book to introduce Python to the developers we 
hire.

Thanks Again!
-Shane Holloway


Mark Pilgrim wrote:
> I am pleased to announce that my Python book "Dive Into Python" is now
> available on paper, published by Apress and weighing in at 432 pages.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1590593561/ref%3Dnosim/diveintomark20/
> 
> More information, and a complete online edition, is available at
> <http://diveintopython.org/>.
> 
> Without Apress' financial support, this book would have languished
> half-written and self-published, full of typos and technical mistakes.
> Even if you have read the online edition, please consider buying a
> copy.
> 
> ===== obligatory back cover blurb follows =====
> 
> This is a practical book aimed at busy developers.  Every chapter takes
> a real piece of code and turns it inside out until you can't help but
> understand it.  If there is background information you need to know,
> you'll learn it along the way.  But you won't find long-winded
> treatises on the aesthetics of API design or the history of computer
> science.  I don't have time for that, and neither do you.
> 
> And yet, as practical as this book is, there is a touch of passion in
> it.  I fell in love with Python the day I found it.  Did I fall in love
> because of some abstract sense of elegance or style?  No, I fell in
> love because it works and doesn't get in my way.  The standard
> libraries are robust and easy to use.  The syntax is not picky or
> arcane.  Developing in Python is like writing pseudo-code that works.
> After a decade of experience with dogmatic languages, Python is a
> breath of fresh air.
> 
> This book covers the basics of Python datatypes, from lists to
> dictionaries to tuples and beyond.  You'll learn about the power of
> introspection; Python's powerful object model; regular expressions;
> HTML and XML processing; web services; unit testing; performance
> tuning; and the newest language features added in Python 2.3: iterators
> and generators.
> 
> I hope this book makes you fall in love with Python.  But if not,
> that's okay.  You'll learn plenty anyway, and my passion can be enough
> for both of us.
> 
> --
> Mark Pilgrim
> 


From ny_r_marquez at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 17 12:20:23 2004
From: ny_r_marquez at yahoo.com (R.Marquez)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 09:20:23 -0700
Subject: Simple exceptions question
References: <f8097096.0408161106.6292244f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <8a27e309.0408170627.7258082c@posting.google.com>

Not sure if this is all you need, but have tried this?

def main():
    #define vars
    try:
        foo(a, b, c)
    except IndexError:
        import traceback
        traceback.print_exc()


From chrisdewinN0SPAM at yahoo.com.au  Wed Aug 25 14:18:09 2004
From: chrisdewinN0SPAM at yahoo.com.au (Dfenestr8)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 03:18:09 +0900
Subject: Capturing exceptions?
References: <pan.2004.08.25.17.12.17.521438@yahoo.com.au>
	<a9uuv1-dtf.ln1@valpo.de>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.25.18.17.43.658391@yahoo.com.au>

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:19:06 +0200, Mathias Waack wrote:

> Dfenestr8 wrote:
>> What's the easiest way to capture the traceback from an exception, and
>> write it to a file? Ideally, I'd like to be able to do something like:
>> 
>>>try:
>>>main()
>>>except:
>>>write the traceback to a file
> 
> Have a look at the traceback module.
> 
> Mathias

I did. Thanx. But I'm afraid I don't understand it.

>From looking at the docs, it would appear the method extract.tb(traceback,
limit) is the method I want. But it appears to want some kind of object as
its parameter, and I have no idea what kind of object that is.
 
I've tried "a = traceback.extract_tb(tb)",
"traceback.extract_tb(traceback)", "traceback.extract_tb(sys.exc_info())".

What kind of parameter does it need? 


From nomail at nomail.nomail  Mon Aug 16 13:52:39 2004
From: nomail at nomail.nomail (Dominic)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:52:39 +0200
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
In-Reply-To: <972ec5bd.0408152033.19fdcba4@posting.google.com>
References: <972ec5bd.0408141032.385fe115@posting.google.com>
	<cfn0oa$112$1@news.uni-kl.de>
	<972ec5bd.0408152033.19fdcba4@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfqs3i$aba$1@news.uni-kl.de>


 > It really was never an issue of "Python can't handle this." it was
 > more of an issue of "Python should more openly support this." I am
 > championing generators because they make programming SO much easier in
 > cases, and people really just don't use them outside if list
 > generation, which saddens me.
Coroutines are much more powerful than Python's generators and
they can be easily abused to create unstructured
"goto"-like programs thus I assume it would still be a good idea
to put most effort into your architecture and it's
underlying execution model regardless of what you finally
use to keep state:  coroutines, threads, (nested) generators.
Try to hide the implementation if you can.

Nesting generators works, but I have to admit
it's (probably) not very elegant.
I would also prefer coroutines for simulation and games as
a module similar to thread/threading.

I think Michael Jackson wrote a converter for COBOL
in the 70s, which would "invert" active entities into
ordinary functions keeping their state in ordinary data structures.
This can certainly be done in Python too.
Maybe this helps.


Ciao,
  Dominic


P.S. Many programming languages do not even have
      support for "generators", e.g. Java

      Ha! Maybe @decorators are the solution ! ;-)


From eric_brunel at despammed.com  Tue Aug 24 12:50:20 2004
From: eric_brunel at despammed.com (Eric Brunel)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:50:20 +0200
Subject: Regular expression guaranteed to fail
References: <yyrjacwqdrlk.fsf@pc156.maths.bris.ac.uk>
	<cg4p0p$6v7$1@news-reader1.wanadoo.fr>
	<HBF.20040822jyb6@bombur.uio.no>
	<96jmi0pt39frp5n3r34afrt21cfeclp0mi@4ax.com>
	<HBF.20040824b8b4@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <cgfr59$4jg$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>

Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
> Greg Chapman wrote:
> 
>>Why not just "(?!)": this always fails immediately (since an empty pattern
>>matches any string, the negation of an empty pattern match always fails).
> 
> 
> It's fine for re.match.
> 
> 'Why not?': Because I'd expect re.search to walk through the entire
> string and check if each position in the string matches that regexp.
> Unfortunately, a little timing shows that that happens with _every_
> regexp suggested so far.  Long strings take longer for each of them.
> (Except Jeremy's solution, of course, which avoids the whole problem.)
> r'\A(?!)' or r'\Ax\A' didn't work either.
> 
> Anyway, I note that r'x\A' beats all the other regexps suggested so far
> with a factor of 20 when searching 's'*10000.

And when searching 'x'*10000? Since there is an 'x' in the re, it may change 
things a lot...
-- 
- Eric Brunel <eric (underscore) brunel (at) despammed (dot) com> -
PragmaDev : Real Time Software Development Tools - http://www.pragmadev.com



From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 15 21:59:52 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:59:52 -0400
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <6F7215C0-EF23-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>
References: <20040815155532.9C77F1E400B@bag.python.org>
	<6F7215C0-EF23-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>
Message-ID: <cfp4eo$o1i$1@sea.gmane.org>

Chas Emerick wrote:
> 
> I think you have the direction of causation reversed here.  Python 
> programmers don't use 'self' as the first argument to indicate an 
> instance method, they/we (again, I worry how much cred I have as a 
> python programmer yet :-) use 'self' *because* a method is an instance 
> method.  I know you'd like the reverse to become a 
> standard/convention...that's a respectable position, but not a 
> particularly practical one since a soon-to-be-standard method for 
> defining a function's type is on its way that just happens to be 
> generalized enough to be useful in tons of other contexts.
>

The "soon-to-be-standard" (gosh, I hope not!) technique would require 
that we explicitly 'declare' class methods and static methods, as we do 
now (albeit with a different syntax).  Isn't that less practical than 
simply having the system enforce the coding convention?  And what 
happens when the declaration disagrees with the convention?  That is, 
what happens when a developer writes

     def foo(self): pass

but declares it to be a class or static method?  Shouldn't the system at 
least issue a warning message (that you're likely to be confusing your 
poor readers)?  And if it's going to go that far... :-)

> I think the source of my gut reaction to the proposal you've advanced 
> (aside from the conceptual action-at-a-distance violation that I already 
> cited) is my past experience with Hungarian notation, where the name of 
> a variable indicates its type.  The comparison isn't totally clean cut 
> because of the special peculiarities of Hn, but I think the folly that 
> it represents is a clear warning to stay away from taking type 
> information based on naming conventions.
> 

I don't see your point about an 'action-at-a-distance' violation. 
Wouldn't that only be the case if something we do locally has side 
effects that break something in another part of the application?

As for the Hungarian notation, I agree that in its most abused state, it 
can be a real mess for all sorts of reasons.   However in Python we do 
use a very lightweight form of that in the way we identify private and 
semi-private methods.

> I won't discuss the virtues or drawbacks of whitespace-as-structure, 
> since that's been hacked to death 1433 times already.  However, I will 
> say that python's usage of whitespace kept me away from seriously trying 
> it for almost a year.  Now, that's absolutely my fault, and isn't 
> representative of the technical ability of python.  However, if 
> continued rapid uptake of python by new users is important, I would 
> suggest that using the success of whitespace-as-structure in 'the 
> market' is not the greatest reference for a proposal.
> 

I said that it was elegant and genius; I never said that is wasn't a 
barrier for adoption.  Still it'll be a sad day when Guido decides that 
to increase Python's popularity, we must support curly braces :-(




From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 29 12:10:13 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 12:10:13 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <cgrecn$dgk$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgrecn$dgk$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
Message-ID: <cgsv5i$r9u$1@sea.gmane.org>

Bengt Richter wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 08:45:20 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> [...]
> 
>>Cool!  Thanks!  Now I need to ponder why a function's docstring needs a 
>>different implementation than a class's docstring (i.e. why not just 
>>make it a straigtforward attribute of the function object).
>>
> 
> Disclaimer: I am just speculating from appearances accessible interactively,
> so don't take this as developer's documention of internals. I'm just reading
> between the lines, trying to recognize the underlying ideas ;-)
> 
> So, depending on your idea of 'straightforward' ISTM docstrings do look like
> 'straightforward' attributes in the way they behave:
> 

By straightforward here I mean stored directly in the object's __dict__. 
    It's such an obvious place to keep the docstring, and it's the 
expected place, since that's where it's (apparently) stored for classes 
and modules.

> So there is a difference between func and old-style-class docstring implementations.
> Were you using old style classes for your question?
> 

I'm hoping that it doesn't matter.  What I'm really trying to get at is 
a function's namespace --- a dictionary that maps function attribute 
names to objects --- so that the interpreter has a context in which to 
evaluate __xxx__ variables defined at the outermost level of a function 
def.

Remember, I'm asserting that when we define __xxx__ attributes inside of 
a function def, they are not intended to be local variables, used in the 
computation of the function's result.  Rather they are intended to be 
function meta data, and therefore should be evaluated (at function 
definition time, not function execution time), in the context of the 
function being defined.

For example, in the following function def, the comments specify (what I 
believe is) the author's intention behind each assignment.

    def circu(diameter):
       """Info about circu."""        # defines circu.__doc__
       __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'     # defines circu.__author__
       __features__ = memoized        # defines circu.__features__
       pi = 3.14                      # local variable definition
       return pi * diameter



> I don't know why I did this...
> 

You were trying to help us understand what's going on under the hood, 
and I really appreciate that research and explanation.  Thank you for 
taking such an interest in this issue.

Paul



From fumanchu at amor.org  Sun Aug 22 10:26:36 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 07:26:36 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WEDONE?
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E25@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Doug Holton wrote:
> I got over 250 votes for C1 just last week vs. the 22 who voted for J2
here.

By my reckoning, that would mean a third poll would garner somwhere
between 1 and 2 total votes.

> Just make a poll with J2 vs. C1 and see what you find.

I don't see the point at this stage. I've put 20 hours into a document
for J2 this weekend, and would really like to start working on consensus
for it now. If you want to write a similar document for C1, feel free.
The time for voting is over, IMO.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no  Mon Aug 23 16:41:53 2004
From: mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no (Magnus Lie Hetland)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:41:53 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Standard graph API?
References: <slrncik8tm.4g.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
	<eppstein-08D901.11581523082004@news.service.uci.edu>
	<pan.2004.08.23.16.22.34.771887@jerf.org>
Message-ID: <slrnciklkh.e8q.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>

In article <pan.2004.08.23.16.22.34.771887 at jerf.org>, Jeremy Bowers
wrote:
[snip]

As I tried to state in the original post (I probably wasn't clear
enough) I'm not talking about a standard *implementation*, just a
standard *API*, like the DB-API. This could easily cover all kinds of
strange beasts such as directed or undirected, weighted or unweighted
(etc.) graphs; multigraphs, chain graphs, hypergraphs, who knows.

I'm basically just suggesting that it might be useful to have a
"standard" interface for these things. It may be that the simple de
facto standard that David cites is sufficient (although it certainly
doesn't cover hypergraphs -- but that's possibly going a bit too far
anyway.)

-- 
Magnus Lie Hetland     "Canned Bread: The greatest thing since sliced
http://hetland.org      bread!" [from a can in Spongebob Squarepants]


From fumanchu at amor.org  Mon Aug 23 13:22:34 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:22:34 -0700
Subject: J2 paper 0.2.1
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E43@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Fran?ois Pinard wrote:
> Thanks also to Michael for the implementation, and to Paul 
> who helped us all
> at channelling the conversation.

Amen. Again I say, amen.


FuManChu


From faust at wintermarket.org  Mon Aug 30 08:12:30 2004
From: faust at wintermarket.org (Michael Jard)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 12:12:30 GMT
Subject: Pass a class to an InteractiveCompiler?
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.30.12.12.29.875470@wintermarket.org>

class grid_object:
    def __init__(self,object_class=""):
        import random
        import code
        self.id = random.randrange(1,99999)
        self.object_class = object_class
        self.label = "grid object: %s %i" % (self.object_class, self.id)
        self.vector = [0,0,0]
        source = open(grid_config.object_scripts + self.object_class,'r')

        x = code.InteractiveConsole({'grid_object':self})

        for line in source:
            x.push(line)


I'd like to think that was possible?



From tim.peters at gmail.com  Sat Aug  7 03:23:23 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 03:23:23 -0400
Subject: Timing Difference: insert vs. append & reverse
In-Reply-To: <xY_Qc.1082$QJ3.288@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
References: <35b736b9.0408020330.53b24ed3@posting.google.com>	<Xns953983065EEC6duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>	<1a517b5.0408031027.60554dfb@posting.google.com>	<Xns953B4F5373D3Bduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>	<1a517b5.0408041305.3927a6c8@posting.google.com>	<mailman.1159.1091655528.5135.python-list@python.org>	<p7hQc.6692$AY5.4804@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>	<mailman.1181.1091683751.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cpHQc.960$ry5.149@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>
	<mailman.1276.1091802890.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<xY_Qc.1082$QJ3.288@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <1f7befae04080700235f54628d@mail.gmail.com>

[Bryan Olson]
> Looking at the source, I'm worried.  Append and pop[-1] are not
> really amortized O(1); at best they're commonly-average O(1).
> Alternating appends and pops at certain border values will call
> realloc for every operation.  The pop-reallocs free the extra
> memory; if the allocator uses that memory for other requests,
> the following append will have to copy the entire list.

...

> The leave-it-to-realloc method seems to be an effort to save one
> word (either a pointer or a size) per list.

What are you looking at?  I've been talking about Python 2.4 (as
evidenced by my saying 2.4 over and over <wink>).  Its list
implementation is not realloc-happy, and has both allocated-size and
used-size members.  The earlier leave-it-to-realloc gimmick was indeed
an extreme effort to save bytes.  The 2.4 implementation is simpler,
clearer, faster, and better-behaved in several respects.

> With two more words, I think we could make operations on both ends
> amortize O(1).

As before, I don't care about this.  The 2.4 deque is O(1) on both
ends straightforwardly and more efficiently.

> The only lists for which this would be a substantial
> portion are empty lists. Currently, empty lists require four
> words (type_pointer, refcount, size=0, item_pointer=NULL)

Plus 3 for the gc header (every list object gets one, although that's
not apparent from staring at listobject.h), plus 1 (not in 2.3 but in
2.4) to store the # of allocated slots.  That's a total of 8.

> plus malloc's bookkeeping.

The list struct is allocated via pymalloc, which allocates in 8-byte
chunks with trivial overhead beyond that (just a few percent).  So not
even 1 bit can be added to the 2.4 list struct without losing another
8 bytes, under *most* C compilers for 32-bit machines.  The Microsoft
C compilers are exceptions (they stick 4 bytes of padding in the gc
header, so there are 4 wasted bytes now (2.4) in the list struct under
MSVC).

> Any non-empty list additionally allocates space for at least 8 pointers, ...

In 2.4 that's been reduced to 4.


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Wed Aug 18 19:54:22 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:54:22 -0500
Subject: singleton (newbie)
References: <b68d2f19.0408181413.70f2a91b@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <F-2dnYQF94Kxcb7cRVn-qw@comcast.com>

Neil,

Three observations:

1) IMHO Python needs to be written as Python not as some
   other language.  I've rewritten your class below:

class B:
    x = 0
    y = 1

    def foo():
      print B.x

    foo = staticmethod(foo)

    def bar():
        print B.y
        B.y+=1

    bar = staticmethod(bar)

 if __name__ == "__main__":
    B.foo()
    B.bar()
    B.foo()
    B.bar()
    B.bar()

2) I continue to read on c.l.p. about staticmethods and
   just don't understand why anyone would use them.  This
   is how I learned to write this in Python.  It seems that
   they are some sort of "carryover" from another language.
   I'd be the first to admit I don't understand the appeal,
   so maybe they can be useful.  I've just never needed them.
   If I need a static function, I just write it that way.
   I don't make it the method of a class object.

if you want x, y to be global across all instances of B:

class B:
    x = 0
    y = 1

    def foo(self):
        print self.x

    def bar(self):
        print self.y
        self.y+=1

if __name__ == "__main__":
    b=B()
    b.foo()
    b.bar()
    b.foo()
    b.bar()
    b.bar()

if you want x, y to be local to current instance of B:

class B:
    def __init__(self):
        self.x=0
        self.y=1

    def foo(self):
        print self.x

    def bar(self):
        print self.y
        self.y+=1

if __name__ == "__main__":
    b=B()
    b.foo()
    b.bar()
    b.foo()
    b.bar()
    b.bar()

3) If you just want static functions, just write them that way.

def foo():
    global x
    print x

def bar():
    global y
    print y

if __name__ == "__main__":
    x=0
    y=0
    foo()
    bar()
    foo()
    bar()
    bar()

Maybe it will help, maybe not.

Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.


"Neil Zanella" <nzanella at cs.mun.ca> wrote in message
news:b68d2f19.0408181413.70f2a91b at posting.google.com...
> Hello,
>
> Is this the correct way to code multi-instance singleton in Python?
> It seems to do the trick for me but I appreciate any criticism as I
> am somewhat new to Python.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Neil
>
> #!/usr/bin/python
>
> class B:
>   x = 0
>   y = 1
>   def foo(): print B.x
>   foo = staticmethod(foo)
>   def bar(): print B.y; B.y += 1
>   bar = staticmethod(bar)
>
> if __name__ == "__main__":
>   B.foo()
>   B.bar()
>   B.foo()
>   B.bar()
>   B.bar()




From luismg at gmx.net  Tue Aug 31 03:46:35 2004
From: luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 00:46:35 -0700
Subject: [IronPython] Jim Hugunin's web log.
References: <mailman.2627.1093893089.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<x4udnSFnNtVUW67cRVn-qQ@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <278de0e.0408302346.62cfc40b@posting.google.com>

> Hugunin has said his job is to "make the CLR better for dynamic languages".
> It's unclear to me that directive is synonymous with "develop IronPython
> further"; he could invent his own new language and implement that, or work
> with other CLR-based projects.  I wouldn't conclude that Microsoft is
> adopting Python as a supported tool, or even that Python is Hugunin's
> primary focus, until he actually says that's his goal.

I agree. I think the primary focus of Microsoft is to make the CLR the
best and most attractive development platform, and a good way to
achieve this is by making it more friendly to as many languages as
possible, including scripting ones.
That's the reason they hired Jim Hugunin. Not only to develop python
for the CLR, but to improve the CLR for all the scripting languages
and to investigate the best ways to implement these languages for the
CLR.

As for the concerns about Microsoft "hijacking" python, I think they
probable go too far. We all know what MS did in the past, but this
time, I think they shifted their policies drastically.

There's a whole move of opening their source and submitting standards
that confirm that their new strategy is stabilishing .NET as "the"
platform.
In this task, open source developers have an important place.

Regarding Jim Hugunin, he already implied in his comments that his
intentions are to impement python as close to the standard
implementation as posible. He even consults Gudo regularly on this
subject. And seeing what he did with Jython, there's no reason to
disbelieve.


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 02:35:58 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:35:58 +1000
Subject: Why I love python.
In-Reply-To: <slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204081223354fe2cb13@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 01:11:54 +0000 (UTC), Nick Patavalis
<npat at efault.net> wrote:
> > Don't complicate it. Leave it as is. Work on making it faster, not
> > uglier.
> 
> Python needs drastic performance improvement if it is to scrap-off the
> "scripting language" stigma.

I'm biased, having done a paper on this at the most recent PyCon, but
I firmly believe that much of the "Python is too slow" arguments can be
answered with "too slow for what?" See the pycon proceedings, but I've
been doing VoIP in Python, complete with audio mixing, and it's been 
more than fast enough. 

Another large app is a database ETL tool - Python is more than 
adequate for flinging around a very large number of rows of data. 
Indeed, it could be 4-5 times as slow, and Oracle would still be the
bottleneck.

Sure, you're not going to get great performance for your numerical
computation in Python, but luckily, we have numarray for this. 

Yes, additional performance would be a nice-to-have, but I've not
really found the existing interpreter's performance to be that much
of a problem. I suspect that one of the many new implementations 
will provide us with some wins here.


From grante at visi.com  Tue Aug 31 16:29:25 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 20:29:25 GMT
Subject: sys.stdin.readline()
References: <367a4461.0408311221.30866c09@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <4134dfa5$0$8081$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-31, Mike Maxwell <maxwell at ldc.upenn.edu> wrote:

> When I invoke readline() in a for loop, why does it return a series of
> one-char strings, rather than the full line?
>
>>>> for sL in sys.stdin.readline(): print sL
> ...
> abc
> a
> b
> c
>
> (I typed in 'abc', and the loop printed out 'a\nb\nc\n')
>
> I.e. how can I make readline() wait for the newline before returning a
> value?

It is.

> 'readline()' seems to be acting exactly like 'read()' here.

Sort of.

What you want is:

import sys
while True:
    s = sys.stdin.readline()
    if not s:
        break
    print s
    
-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  .. I see TOILET
                                  at               SEATS...
                               visi.com            


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 09:10:38 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:10:38 +0200
Subject: Proposal for removing self
References: <T_7Xc.61360$Fg5.2281@attbi_s53>
	<cgj4jf$15a@odak26.prod.google.com>
	<938a4680.0408252123.4d71432e@posting.google.com>
	<seuqi0hkpvcjhvpamgu854p7j4ttls8gv3@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1gj4snz.ygxigbakcpojN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Andrea Griffini <agriff at tin.it> wrote:

> On 25 Aug 2004 22:23:46 -0700, rattan at cps.cmich.edu (Ishwar Rattan)
> wrote:
> 
> >I concur for keeping self intact, it does provide clarity in code writing
> >and reading.
> 
> I remember Alex Martelli advocating in our italian newsgroup on
> C++ that C++ programmers should use "this->..." everywhere :-)

I did that, and I did that before becoming mad with love for Python.

At the time my main job was helping hundreds of other programmers debug
their hairiest bugs (also helping them architect and design and test
things correctly, but debugging took far more time -- there's never time
to do it right so there's always time to do it over) and the lack of
this-> was a major cause of problems. confusions and bugs.

> Seemed crazy to me at that time, but now after giving a try
> to python I've to say that self-consciousness isn't bad.

If you write and debug truly complicated C++ templates you'll see why I
wanted explicit this-> prefixing most ardently...;-).


Alex


From steveb428pleaseremovethis at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  6 19:33:29 2004
From: steveb428pleaseremovethis at hotmail.com (DilbertFan)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 23:33:29 GMT
Subject: Paul Graham on Python hackers
References: <3064b51d.0408061127.32536826@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <dzUQc.2532$xL2.390@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>

As a whole, this is my favorite book of the last two years, and I read a
lot.  There hasn't yet been a chapter that I started to glaze over, most
other book there is always a point where my hand started to turn the pages
faster.
Really good stuff
<beliavsky at aol.com> wrote in message
news:3064b51d.0408061127.32536826 at posting.google.com...
> Paul Graham's recent book "Hackers & Painters" may be interesting
> readers for Python programmers. He likes flexible languages like
> Python, although Lisp is his favorite. Here is a quote from his book,
> also online at http://www.paulgraham.com/gh.html , where he contrasts
> Python and Java programmers. He is opinionated :).
>
> "When you decide what infrastructure to use for a project, you're not
> just making a technical decision. You're also making a social
> decision, and this may be the more important of the two. For example,
> if your company wants to write some software, it might seem a prudent
> choice to write it in Java. But when you choose a language, you're
> also choosing a community. The programmers you'll be able to hire to
> work on a Java project won't be as smart as the ones you could get to
> work on a project written in Python. [2] And the quality of your
> hackers probably matters more than the language you choose. Though,
> frankly, the fact that good hackers prefer Python to Java should tell
> you something about the relative merits of those languages.
>
> Business types prefer the most popular languages because they view
> languages as standards. They don't want to bet the company on Betamax.
> The thing about languages, though, is that they're not just standards.
> If you have to move bits over a network, by all means use TCP/IP. But
> a programming language isn't just a format. A programming language is
> a medium of expression."




From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 12:49:43 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 09:49:43 -0700
Subject: Think you've got a new decorator syntax?
Message-ID: <d11dcfba.0408160849.36f3634b@posting.google.com>

You probably don't. ;)  Here's a script that generates (almost) all of
the proposals so far.  Don't worry, there's only 1224 that are both
not currently valid syntax and also easily greppable. ;)

http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~bethard/py/decorators.py

And the output (throwing away any syntaxes that were currently valid
or not easily greppable):

http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~bethard/py/decorators-output.py

Steve


From reply.in.the.newsgroup at my.address.is.invalid  Wed Aug 25 18:51:55 2004
From: reply.in.the.newsgroup at my.address.is.invalid (Rene Pijlman)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:51:55 +0200
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <is5qi0ph5mk5q910m0663fb5fka8qphct2@4ax.com>

Xah Lee:
>I'm starting my own cult to exterminate morons on this earth.
>Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl.

What are you replacing Unix with?

-- 
Ren? Pijlman


From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Sun Aug 22 15:06:11 2004
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:06:11 -0700
Subject: Decorator keyword options - brainstorming
In-Reply-To: <gYednRYEE5WJv7vcRVn-gg@powergate.ca>
References: <mailman.2057.1093014715.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<gYednRYEE5WJv7vcRVn-gg@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <4128f067$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

Peter Hansen wrote:

> I think the "decorate:" option (with alternative keyword if
> there's a better) is the second most Pythonic shown to date...
How about "def:" as the alternative keyword?  Certaily this would
stand out sufficiently.

-Scott David Daniels
Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org


From pellis.no.spam at tampabay.rr.com  Fri Aug 20 22:13:14 2004
From: pellis.no.spam at tampabay.rr.com (Patrick Ellis)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 02:13:14 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <cg69t1$jo@odak26.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <_cyVc.48884$wM.42592@twister.tampabay.rr.com>

C2, C2, J2





From jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl  Mon Aug  9 16:34:36 2004
From: jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl (Jarek Zgoda)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 20:34:36 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: decorators vs GIL
References: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>
	<mailman.1345.1091924284.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<96c2e938.0408081605.706f8ec7@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cf8n4s$b7u$3@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>

G. S. Hayes <sjdevnull at yahoo.com> pisze:

>> What really hurts is that I can't honestly tell Java programmers that
> 
>> Python  is a slam dunk compared to Java & the JVM.  Java has no GIL,
> 
> 
> 
> Java has drunk the threads Kool-Aid, and Java programmers are very
> likely to be thread-crazy because of the lack of a select equivalent
> (until recently) and the lack of good access to processes via fork or
> similar.  Luckily, it's usually pretty easy to convince people of the
> benefits of NOT overusing threads once they've made that mistake once.

Try GUI programming without using threads.

-- 
Jarek Zgoda
http://jpa.berlios.de/


From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Thu Aug 19 11:54:16 2004
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:54:16 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <cfvnt4$98p$1@news.wrc.xerox.com>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<cfvnt4$98p$1@news.wrc.xerox.com>
Message-ID: <4124cf12$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

Mark Jackson wrote:

> "Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> writes:
> 55.  Wrote my first program at 16 (Fortran, punch cards).

Cool.  I often tell people I am one of the oldest programmers
they'll meet who learned young.  I'm 53, and my first program
was LGP-30 machine language at 15.

-Scott David Daniels
Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org


From hamilcar at tld.always.invalid  Tue Aug 10 13:31:15 2004
From: hamilcar at tld.always.invalid (Hamilcar Barca)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 11:31:15 -0600
Subject: Paul Graham on Python hackers
References: <3064b51d.0408061127.32536826@posting.google.com>	<n3fRc.191$%y3.3116@news4.e.nsc.no>
Message-ID: <20040810133115.766$3R@news.newsreader.com>

In article <n3fRc.191$%y3.3116 at news4.e.nsc.no> (Sun, 08 Aug 2004 03:10:32
+0200), Baalbek wrote:

> beliavsky at aol.com wrote:
>> also choosing a community. The programmers you'll be able to hire to
>> work on a Java project won't be as smart as the ones you could get to
>> work on a project written in Python. [2] And the quality of your
> 
> I prefer Java and Python alike, I simply love those two languages.....

It's my experience that the more "buzz" a language gets, the more
programmers want to use it.  In the case of Java, and especially Visual
Basic, this tends to lower the average quality of programmers using the
language.

> So, am I smart, or not as smart?

I'm betting it's one or the other.

> What a stupid assertion to make; this Paul Graham has just proven 
> himself to be an ass.........

Not.


From mmccrack at ucsd.edu  Wed Aug  4 16:54:22 2004
From: mmccrack at ucsd.edu (Michael McCracken)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 13:54:22 -0700
Subject: help: Unit test fixture returning the same object
References: <9895e897.0408031533.26720ba0@posting.google.com>
	<nKGdnfWEjOtspo3cRVn-qg@powergate.ca>
	<9895e897.0408040851.21ac7caa@posting.google.com>
	<roy-D35DF5.12585504082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<yovvffy7lj8.fsf@gradlab.ucsd.edu>
	<cerh48$csd$01$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <mmccrack-FE2F36.13542204082004@localhost>

In article <cerh48$csd$01$1 at news.t-online.com>,
 Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:

> Michael McCracken wrote:
> 
> > I managed to fix my problem, but I don't understand why the fix works
> > yet, so I'm not quite satisfied.
> 
> [...] 
> 
> > class Block:
> >     def __init__(self, name, preds = [], succs = []):
> 
> Heureka! Providing mutables as default values is a well-known pitfall. 
> 
> http://www.python.org/doc/faq/general.html#why-are-default-values-shared-betwe
> en-objects
> 

Oh, excellent - thanks for the pointer. Time to read the rest of the 
FAQ. :)

-mike


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 13:37:43 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:37:43 +0200
Subject: Proposal for removing self
References: <T_7Xc.61360$Fg5.2281@attbi_s53>
	<b74e43f1.0408252333.48074974@posting.google.com>
	<gStXc.29013$DG.1381823@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.2479.1093564328.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj65zl.1cuz9ub5xyo3rN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrnciuotp.tkp.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
Message-ID: <1gj6zjl.hlg90j1bqe59nN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Dave Benjamin <ramen at lackingtalent.com> wrote:
   ...
> > While it's also a good idea in Java, it's not as compelling as in C++,
> > because Java mostly lacks the complications due to C++'s templates and
> > freestanding ("not inside a class") names (haven't looked at Java
> > generics so I don't know if they got those complications back in;-).
> 
> Java's generics aren't nearly as liberal as C++ templates. They're basically
> just syntax sugar for casting, so I doubt this would change much. I still
> prefer the explicit "this." or "self.", mainly because it is a pattern that
> I can use consistently across all of the languages I regularly program in
> (JavaScript and ActionScript, like Python, make "this" mandatory as well).

Hmmm, yes, you have a point _in a multilanguage perspective_.
Unfortunately most programmers appear to dislike the concept of being
fluent across several languages.

> That said, if an existing C++ or Java code base uses prefixes for all
> instance variables, it's a bit redundant to add "this.". I have this
> situation at my work, where I reluctantly have to make an exception to avoid
> pissing people off. ;)

Prefix naming is the norm, but I fail to see why 'member_foo' or
'my_foo' should be considered better than 'self.foo'.  Sure, if you work
with an existing body of code it's generally better to follow its
conventions, otherwise your modifications stand out like a sore thumb.


Alex


From casey at zope.com  Mon Aug  9 15:23:36 2004
From: casey at zope.com (Casey Duncan)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:23:36 -0400
Subject: Exceptions as a Control Structure
References: <411775aa$0$17867$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <20040809152336.148cee85.casey@zope.com>

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 15:01:38 +0200
Olivier Parisy <olivier.parisy at free.fr> wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> I am new to Python (I just finished Guido's tutorial).
> I was very surprised to learn there that the StopIteration
> is used to end for loops in a standard iterator setting.
> 
> I come from C++, where the use of exceptions as control
> structures is frowned upon for efficiency reasons.
> 
> What is the Python canon on this topic ? Are exceptions
> considered as reasonable control structures, or is
> StopIteration alone of its kind ?

Actually StopIteration is a semantic peer of the long standing
IndexError and KeyError exceptions used in sequences and dicts.

In general I think you will find python uses exceptions often for flow
control. The try: except: block is more or less free if no exception
actually occurs. 

-Casey 

 



From bingham at cenix-bioscience.com  Tue Aug 31 05:36:08 2004
From: bingham at cenix-bioscience.com (Aaron Bingham)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:36:08 +0200
Subject: File System
In-Reply-To: <10j7r3cflo61680@corp.supernews.com>
References: <10j7r3cflo61680@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <41344688.2090002@cenix-bioscience.com>

Hello Maboroshi,

You are not the first to think that there might be an alternative to the 
filesystem.  Here are a few links to sites for projects where 
filesystems have been rethought or eliminated in very different ways.  
Most of this is unfortunately vaporware.  This is by no means a complete 
list:

Xanadu
    http://www.xanadu.com
    http://www.udanax.com
    http://www.sunless-sea.net

Fenfire
    http://www.nongnu.org/fenfire/

Lifestreams
    http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/freeman/lifestreams.html

EROS
    http://www.eros-os.org

Tunes
    http://tunes.org

Maboroshi wrote:

> <>Hi I was curious
>
> I was interested in finding out from Programmers and Computer Users - If
> they were to completely rebuild there Computers Filing System How would it
> work
>
> I believe since the advent of the PC we have been brainwashed (In a Sense
> cause nothings really Changed ( at least as far as I know ) to have a
> filesystem that is structured in this way Open a Folder open its contents
> open another folder open its contents open a file move a file delete a 
> file
> move a folder delete a folder you get the idea
>
> I believe this structure is much like an array or a multidimensional array
> if you were to put it in that respect
>
> Question:
> are most (if not all) databases like this
>
> I believe there is a better way and I want to find it I also believe if
> there is a better way it could totally change our approach to programming
>
> I know this isn't neccessarily a python question but it has to do with
> future research that will benefit the Python Language plus I like to hear
> the opinions of the Python Community which I have a lot of respect for
>
> Cheers
>
> Maboroshi

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Bingham
Application Developer
Cenix BioScience GmbH
<>--------------------------------------------------------------------



From eq at eq.homelinux.org  Fri Aug 20 06:10:22 2004
From: eq at eq.homelinux.org (eq)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:10:22 +0200
Subject: problem using C-bindings
References: <pan.2004.08.19.20.32.09.806717@eq.homelinux.org>
	<mailman.1985.1092951949.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<pan.2004.08.19.22.14.03.407680@eq.homelinux.org>
	<mailman.1988.1092957695.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.20.10.10.19.990545@eq.homelinux.org>

Am Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:21:31 -0400 schrieb Jack Diederich:

> On Fri, Aug 20, 2004 at 12:14:05AM +0200, eq wrote:
>> Am Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:45:45 -0400 schrieb Jack Diederich:
>> 
>> > On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 10:32:15PM +0200, eq wrote:
>> >> Hi,
>> >> 
>> >> I'm trying to create a program(written in C) that does the following
>> >> things using embedded Python:
>> >> 1. Create a module(say, "MyModule")
>> >> 2. Create a class in that module(say, "MyClass")
>> >> 3. Create a function in that module(say, "MyFunction")
>> > [snip]
>> >> 	class_dict=PyDict_New();
>> >> 	class_name=PyString_FromString("MyClass");
>> >> 	class=PyClass_New(NULL,class_dict,class_name);
>> >> 	PyDict_SetItemString(module_dict,"MyClass",class);
>> > [snip]
>> > 
>> > Take a look at Modules/xxsubtype.c in the source distribution.
>> > It is an example of how to subtype a builtin.  xxmodule.c shows
>> > how to make a class from scratch.  Both are out of date but a good
>> > sarting spot.
>> > 
>> Hm, perhaps I over-complicated my problem:
>> I don't need a full python-class in pure C. I just need to create a
>> (python!) function(a dynamic one, not a static C function) and attach it
>> to an already existing python-class just by using C-calls.
>> I try to do this by compiling the function's code with:
>> 
>> pyfunc_code=Py_CompileString(func_code,"",Py_file_input);
>> 
>> where func_code could be something like "print 'hello'" and then I try to
>> make a function out of this by calling:
>> 
>> pyfunc=PyFunction_New(pyfunc_code,dict);
>> 
>> where dict is the global namespace for the function.
>> What I now want is to attach this function to the already created class
>> "MyClass".
>> 
> 
> In that case I would see how xxmodule.c exports methods in the xx_methods
> array and then in your python code have the class method call that exported
> method.

That's not the point, the problem is that no example i've found(including
the xx_* files) shows how to create a python function from C-code. To make
the thing worse, there's also no example how to add such a function to a
class by using C code.
The xx_* files only create static C methods what is not what I want.

> 
> import xxmodule
> class MyClass(object):
>   def xxfunc(self, arg):
>     return xxmodule.xxfunc(self.someval, arg)
> 
> In practice I've never had a class that wasn't all python or all C but
> I have written small helper functions in C that are called from python.
> 
> -Jack




From del at mjclift.freeserve.co.uk  Fri Aug 13 23:05:07 2004
From: del at mjclift.freeserve.co.uk (Calvin79)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 23:05:07 -0400
Subject: control direction of list
References: <2f2afc89dae36a5a8b23a0f3e623a333@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>
Message-ID: <b79418a390a0a99b248d138d140d9b37@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>

Bounce Anyone able to help?



From npat at efault.net  Fri Aug 13 14:16:37 2004
From: npat at efault.net (Nick Patavalis)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 18:16:37 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<mailman.1583.1092378965.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnchpf2s.7ld.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<mailman.1614.1092408264.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnchq1c4.am7.npat@gray.efault.net>

On 2004-08-13, Dave Brueck <dave at pythonapocrypha.com> wrote:
>
> Yes. Apache is not that fast, and web servers are often more network 
> bound than CPU bound.
>

We 're obviously interested in cases where the problem is
CPU-bound. In a network-bound server, there is no *meaning* in
speaking about performance (with respect to the implementation
language).

> Nobody is arguing that Python is as fast as C. But being slower does
> not imply that Python is unsuitable for those tasks. I'd consider
> your list to be pretty atypical of normal development (how many TCP
> stacks and relational databases need to get written each year?),

I also mentioned web-browsers, ray-tracers, circuit-simulators. I
could add word-processor, spreadsheets, video editing programs, and
GUI toolkits to the list. Are they still too exotic? To cut the thread
short, what I mean is that an application that has to do something
like:

   for i in range(N):
       a[i] = b[i] + c[i]

is bound to be 10 to 100 times slower than the equivalent coded in
C. Which means that the cost of doing *computation* in Python is
prohibitively high! Have you ever seen, say, an AVL-tree
implementation in production Python code? Probably not. Have you ever
seen someone implementing some sort of string-lookup algorithm in
Python (instead of using the build-in dictionaries)? Again no. Is it
because Python has found the "one-size-fits-all",
"best-algorithm-ever-devised" solution? Or is it because the weight of
the language itself is such that even a suboptimal algorithm
implemented in C will never be matched by a python implementation?

The very fact that the python interpreter itself in implemented in C
(and not in Python) is indicative.

>
> Note also that all or most of those programs on your last at one time 
> had to be partially implemented in assembly language even if the main 
> language was C or C++, and yet that didn't make C or C++ unsuitable 
> development languages for the task (nor did it make them only "glue 
> languages").
>

No, but the performance difference between C and Assembly was
*small*. And at some point the C compilers became so good, that you
couldn't beat them by hand coding something (of considerable length)
in assembly. As for C++, one of its primary design-goals were "zero
unneeded overhead"; so it *is* possible to write a C++ program that is
as fast as a C program, if you want to do it.

> The same can hold true for Python in many cases - if a small portion
> needs to be developed in a lower-level language you can still derive
> great benefit from doing the rest of the application in Python.

Of course you can! Nobody argued that Python is useless. Python is one
of the cleanest, most pleasant, and most productive languages one
could wish for. For me it would not be an exaggeration to say that
Python has brought a lot of fun back in programming (and in many
ways). The reason I'm writing this is that *I also* hate to see it
pigeon-holed as a "glue" or "scripting" language. Our difference, I
guess, is that I believe that there is *some* truth in such missives;
and this has to do with the current, immature, state of the Python
*environments*. So my point is that we should not relax in the cozy
feeling that "Python is great for most applications, even if it's a
little slow, but who cares". I want to be able to write signal
processing functions in Python, or implement that optimized
special-case search algorithm, and I want to be sure that---by guiding
the compiler properly---it will produce code that is as efficient as a
well-written C program, or hand-coded assembly (or at least close to
that). I want the next GUI toolkit I use to be written in Python
(instead of written in C++ and simply wrapped in Python). And I
believe that this *is* possible, provided that we don't ignore all the
years that have been spent advancing compiler technology, and that we
don't treat the current Python environments as the "end of the
line". CPython is a good proof that Python works, and that it is a
great language. For Python to become a "primary" language, there's
still much work to be done. Most of this work, as I said before, has
to do with the environments (interpreters, AOT/JIT compilers,
optimizers, runtime modules, etc). But some of it has to do with
ensuring---at the language level---that efficient environments are
possible. Considering CPython and Python one and the same leads
straight to a Perl-ish hell!

/npat


From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Aug 17 06:57:29 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 12:57:29 +0200
Subject: Newbie 1st program
References: <f9d01b73.0408161010.1ba5e9e4@posting.google.com>
	<f8097096.0408170233.5a40706d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfsoap$dd7$06$1@news.t-online.com>

Nick Jacobson wrote:

>             d = dict(zip(range(10), ary))

Magic constants are evil. The above will not (automatically) remain correct
when new items are added to ary. Therefore:

              d = dict(enumerate(ary))

>             i = event.GetInt()
>             if i in range(10):

Make the above line

              if i in d:

instead. Faster and more robust against changes elsewhere (no need for
consecutive integer keys). 

You wouldn't want to teach a newbie bad habits, would you :-)

Peter
 



From __peter__ at web.de  Sun Aug  1 03:45:00 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 09:45:00 +0200
Subject: glob.glob unicode bug or feature
References: <9418be08.0407310712.5ee65904@posting.google.com>
	<cegun0$m37$02$1@news.t-online.com>
	<w1VOc.25569$K53.18433@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <cei71t$iuf$05$1@news.t-online.com>

Neil Hodgson wrote:

>> if not dirname:
>>     dirname = type(dirname)(os.curdir)
> 
>    This didn't work for me as os.curdir has already been added in the call
> to glob1. Instead, for Python 2.3, also changing line 22 inside glob() to
> 
>         return glob1(type(dirname)(os.curdir), basename)
> 
>    worked.

I should have tried before posting. Now you point it out it seems I've
changed a piece of dead code. Or am I missing something ...again?

Peter



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 13:23:59 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 03:23:59 +1000
Subject: Is it a bug (or a feature)?
In-Reply-To: <tW%Wc.22419$v86.11990@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <mailman.2348.1093434827.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<tW%Wc.22419$v86.11990@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082510233acf69ea@mail.gmail.com>

This looks like a bug. Please open a bug on SF, with the example code.


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Wed Aug 11 12:58:11 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:58:11 GMT
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <DesSc.3093$M8.1731@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"Peter Hansen" <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message
news:PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig at powergate.ca...
>
> class Klass:
>      # init set
>
>      decorate:
>          staticmethod
>      def meth0(x):
>          return x
>
BEAUTIFUL!!!  Looks very Pythonic.

This is the first prefix syntax proposal I've seen that looks to address all
of the technical and esthetic objections.

And NO magic punctuation - hooray!

-- Paul




From vonehr at ipm.fhg.de  Tue Aug 10 09:37:02 2004
From: vonehr at ipm.fhg.de (Markus von Ehr)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:37:02 +0200
Subject: flicker in wxBufferedPaintDC
Message-ID: <cfaj0e$b4f$1@news2.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>

Hi,

I actualize a buffer in an event handler routine:

if BUFFERED:
         # If doing buffered drawing, create the buffered DC, giving it
         # it a real DC to blit to when done.
         cdc = wxClientDC(self)
         dc = wxBufferedDC(cdc, self.buffer)

         dc.BeginDrawing()
         if self.image:
             dc.DrawBitmap(self.image.ConvertToBitmap(), 0,0)
         dc.EndDrawing()

and paint the buffer in the OnPaint method.

      def OnPaint(self, event):
         if BUFFERED:
             # Create a buffered paint DC.  It will create the real
             # wxPaintDC and then blit the bitmap to it when dc is
             # deleted.  Since we don't need to draw anything else
             # here that's all there is to it.
             dc = wxBufferedPaintDC(self, self.buffer)
         else:
             dc = wxPaintDC(self)
             # since we're not buffering in this case, we have to
             # paint the whole window, potentially very time consuming.
             self.DoDrawing(dc)


but the window is flickering. The window displays the liveimage of a 
connected camera.
How could I get rid of the flickering?

Thanks for any hints,

Markus


From opengeometry at yahoo.ca  Mon Aug  2 04:22:56 2004
From: opengeometry at yahoo.ca (William Park)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 08:22:56 GMT
Subject: (patch for Bash) list comprehension and filtering
Message-ID: <2n6buvFt0c2oU2@uni-berlin.de>

1.  Here is shell version of Python filter() for array.  Essentially,
    you apply a command on each array element, and extract only those
    elements which it returns success (0).  This is specialized form of
    list comprehension where you can contruct an array from another
    array, using some sort of test or filtering.

    Usage is
        arrayfilter [-a var] command array
    where 'command' is a function, shell script, or external executable,
    which takes one argument (ie. the array elements).  If 'command'
    return success (0), then print the element; and, if it fails
    (non-zero), then skip the element.  If -a option is given, then the
    output will be save into array variable 'var', instead of default
    stdout.

    For example,
        a=(1 a 2 b 3 c)
        func () { [[ $1 == [a-z] ]]; }

        arrayfilter func a              --> a b c
        arrayfilter -a b func a --> b[1]=a b[3]=b b[5]=c


2.  More generally, here is shell version of Python list comprehension.
    Idea is to apply some test or command on each array element, and
    collect the outputs as parameter expansion.  So, for each element of
    array variable 'var',
        ${var| command }
    will expand to the output of 'command' which takes one argument.  If
    'command' returns NULL, then that element is skipped.  Usage is very
    similar to other parameter expansion, and both '*' and '@' work as
    expected.

    For example,
        a=(1 a 2 b 3 c)
        func () { [[ $1 == [a-z] ]] && echo ".$1."; }

        func x                  --> .x.
        ${a[*]| func }          --> .a. .b. .d.


Ref:
    http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/
    http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/index.html#bash
    help arrayfilter
    help '${var|'

-- 
William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, <opengeometry at yahoo.ca>
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


From AntiVir at yalta.us  Thu Aug 12 00:19:20 2004
From: AntiVir at yalta.us (AntiVir at yalta.us)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 07:19:20 +0300
Subject: AntiVir ALERT [mail from: "Returned mail" <noreply@python.org>]
Message-ID: <200408120419.i7C4JKqM011348@yalta.us>

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * AntiVir ALERT * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
????????? ????????? ????? ? ??????????????, ??????? ????????? ????? ??????!

???????????: "Returned mail" <noreply at python.org>
???????? ??????: Worm/Mydoom.m	

????? ?? ???? ?????????? ??????????.

? ?????????;
        ???????? ????????
 ???.: +38(0654)271828
????.: +38(0654)231094
  web: www.yaltainfo.com
email: support at yalta.us


Mail-Info:
--8<--
 From: "Returned mail" <noreply at python.org>
 To: python-list at python.org
 Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 04:17:59 +0300
 Subject: Returned mail: Data format error
--8<--

This version of AntiVir is licensed for private and non-commercial use.

--
AntiVir for UNIX
Copyright (C) 1994-2003 by H+BEDV Datentechnik GmbH. All rights reserved.
For more information see http://www.antivir.de/ or http://www.hbedv.com/


From ej  Sun Aug 15 22:42:15 2004
From: ej (Erik Johnson)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 20:42:15 -0600
Subject: os.system(), HTTPServer, and finishing HTTP requests
Message-ID: <41201e06@nntp.zianet.com>

Hi,

  I am trying to spawn a daemon type program to go off on its own and do
some work (asynchoronously) from within an HTTPServer, but I am running into
a problem where the web browser (actually a Perl LWP program) still seems to
be waiting for more input until the child that is forked in the server
finishes (granchild, actually). I don't understand this. I need to be able
to have the POST to the server complete and go on even though there is a
(grand)child process still running.

    So... that's the short summary, more specific code follows..

   worker.py is a program that does the standard double-fork paradigm,
allowing the original parent to return and leaving an orphaned child behind
to do its own thing. If you call this program directly through the shell, it
returns you immediately to your shell, which is just like what I want and
would expect:


#! /usr/bin/python
"""
worker.py
"""

import sys, os, time

t = 30

pid = os.fork()
if (pid == 0):
    # child: fork() again and exit so that the original
    # parent is not left waiting on us.
    pid = os.fork()
    if (pid > 0):
        # child
        print "child (PID %d): forked grandchild %d. I'm exiting." %\
            (os.getpid(), pid)
        sys.exit()

    # grandchild continues here, drops out bottom of if-block

elif (pid > 0):
    # parent: exit so caller can continue
    p_pid = os.getpid()
    print "parent (PID %d): forked child %d. ." % (p_pid, pid)
    (c_pid, status) = os.wait()
    print "parent (PID %d): child %d is done. I'm exiting." % (p_pid, c_pid)
    sys.exit() # normal exit


# grandchild continues here - my worker process
g_pid = os.getpid()
s = "grandchild (PID %d): going to sleep for %d seconds..." % (g_pid, t)
print s

# pretend to do some work
time.sleep(t)

# done
print "grandchild (PID %d) waking up... exiting." % g_pid



Here is sample output from running worker.py:
ej at sand:~/src/python/problem> worker.py
grandchild (PID 9697): going to sleep for 30 seconds...
child (PID 9696): forked grandchild 9697. I'm exiting.
parent (PID 9695): forked child 9696. .
parent (PID 9695): child 9696 is done. I'm exiting.
ej at sand:~/src/python/problem>

and then about 30 sec later, after getting back to my shell, my console
prints:

grandchild (PID 9697) waking up... exiting.


This is all fine and dandy.  One step removed from that is to call this
program from another Python program via os.system(). It too exits
immediately and returns me to the shell even though my (grand)child process
is still running. Again, this is just what I want and expect. Here is the
code for that program:

#! /usr/bin/python
"""
call_worker.py
"""

import os, sys

PROG_NAME = sys.argv[0]

print PROG_NAME + ": calling worker.py..."
os.system('worker.py')
print PROG_NAME + ": all done. exiting."


Here is the output from running it (again, all fine and dandy):

ej at sand:~/src/python/problem> call_worker.py
./call_worker.py: calling worker.py...
grandchild (PID 9710): going to sleep for 30 seconds...
child (PID 9709): forked grandchild 9710. I'm exiting.
parent (PID 9708): forked child 9709. .
parent (PID 9708): child 9709 is done. I'm exiting.
./call_worker.py: all done. exiting.
ej at sand:~/src/python/problem>

and after 30 seconds, your again-active shell window should print:

grandchild (PID 9710) waking up... exiting.


     But if I make this same os.system() call from within my own HTTPServer,
then the browser that is making the request is left hanging until that
sleeping grandchild is done. It's like there is still a socket connection
between it and my browser?!? But the grandchild is not forked from the
server - it's an os.system() call!  It should not be inherting any file
descriptors and such, right? Even though the do_GET() function should be
over, and in fact, you can see in the shell that started the server that the
server process has already exited, the browser is apparently still waiting
for the web page to finish loading.

    I don't get it!  I have a long task I need to instantiate in my Python
server based on info in the HTTP POST, and the program that is making that
POST needs to be able to go on and do other stuff before my task is over.
Why am I not getting a clean exit in my POSTing process? What do I need to
do to get my HTTP request to my server to finish essentially "immediately"?


Thanks for taking the time to read my post. Any help greatly appreciated!
:) -ej


    Below is the code for a simple server you can run. It is currently coded
to listen on port 5238 and only serve one request before the server exits.
It serves a little static chunk of HTML on a GET request regardless of what
PATH you call (I talked about POST above, but the browser-hanging behaviour
is the same).


#! /usr/bin/python

"""
server.py
"""

from BaseHTTPServer import HTTPServer, BaseHTTPRequestHandler
import os, sys

SERVER_PORT = 5238    # arbitrary port not in use (open on firewall?)
WORKER = 'worker.py'    # name of the program to call via os.system()
PROG = sys.argv[0]           # name of this program

#=======================================================================
class RequestHandler(BaseHTTPRequestHandler):

    #-------------------------------------------------------------------
    def do_GET(self):

        # call my "daemon" to get some stuff done in the background
        print "%s: about to call os.system(%s)" % (PROG, WORKER)
        os.system(WORKER)
        print "%s: back from os.system(%s)" % (PROG, WORKER)

        # send HTTP headers
        self.send_response(200)
        self.send_header("Content-type", 'text/html');
        self.end_headers()

        # start HTML output
        html = """\
<html>
  <body><h2>All done!</h2></body>
</html>
"""
        self.wfile.write(html)
    #-------------------------------------------------------------------

#=======================================================================

# BEGIN main
if (__name__ == '__main__'):

    # create a new HTTP server and handle a request
    server = HTTPServer(('', SERVER_PORT), RequestHandler)
    server.handle_request()





From exarkun at divmod.com  Wed Aug  4 12:23:09 2004
From: exarkun at divmod.com (Jp Calderone)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 12:23:09 -0400
Subject: Perl's Crypt::PasswdMD5
In-Reply-To: <ceqoul$ept$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
References: <ceqoul$ept$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <41110D6D.4000901@divmod.com>

Bart Nessux wrote:
> Does Python have anything similar to Perl's Crypt::PasswdMD5???
> 
> I read about the crypt module... but it only does DES. Any plans to add 
> md5 or other digests to it in the future?

 >>> import crypt
 >>> crypt.crypt('foo bar', '$1$salt')
'$1$salt$LAwA5cAKtcsGTJGx.bMTC1'
 >>>

   I forget the algorithm used to determine 'salt', but I'm sure it's 
straightforward and well documented.

   Jp


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Fri Aug  6 17:34:44 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 17:34:44 -0400
Subject: @decorators
References: <d22692a3.0408052234.7230fd74@posting.google.com><roy-B53A92.08194306082004@reader1.panix.com><10h73e5kh1et536@news.supernews.com>
	<4113e5be@nntp.zianet.com><10h7qlg5adbfj86@news.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1314.1091827156.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10h7ucadv3tnrb0@news.supernews.com>


"Tim Peters" <tim.peters at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1314.1091827156.5135.python-list at python.org...
> [John Roth]
> > ...
> > Since I wrote that, I managed to read the new, improved
> > and rewritten PEP, and discovered that the new syntax
> > doesn't allow parameters.
>
> It does.  What it says is "arbitrary expressions will not work", and I
> would agree that's vague if you insisted it was <wink>.  What it means
> is that parameters are fine, but things like
>
> @list_of_decorators[index]
> @eatme and deco1 or deco2
> @random.choice([deco1, deco2, deco3])
>
> are right out.  Note that the PEP still contains examples of
> decorators with arguments, and the people who want decorators most
> need them to accept arguments.

OK. I sit corrected.

John Roth




From jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu  Thu Aug 12 09:17:39 2004
From: jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu (John Hunter)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:17:39 -0500
Subject: Python script to generate static site?
In-Reply-To: <hl5lh0pb3u4m47f2bsatc9vigrv7pc7v07@4ax.com> (Fred's message of
	"Thu, 12 Aug 2004 00:03:23 +0200")
References: <hl5lh0pb3u4m47f2bsatc9vigrv7pc7v07@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <m2isbo7ax8.fsf@mother.paradise.lost>

>>>>> "Fred" == Fred  <fred at acme.com> writes:

    Fred> Hi, I'm sure there are a bunch of them, but googling just
    Fred> returned full-fledged CMS that require a DBMS and generate
    Fred> dynamic pages.

    Fred> I'd just like a script that would 1. look in a directory for
    Fred> articles in raw HTML, 2. generate a cooked output for each
    Fred> page (ie. add header and footer, CSS link in HEAD, etc.),
    Fred> 3. regenerate the homepage with "Last modified" bit
    Fred> following each article's title, 4. ready to be uploaded by
    Fred> FTP to a web server that only handles static web pages.

    Fred> Considering Python's wealth of libraries, it's most likely
    Fred> only a couple hours' work, but since I'm pretty much a
    Fred> Python newbie...

yaptu is python templating code (79 lines long!).  I use it to
(statically) generate the entire matplotlib web site -
http://matplotlib.sourceforge.net.  This includes parsing pydoc output
to embed it into the web site navigation tables, adding headers /
footers, etc.  I think it's great - it's really easy to mix python &
html


see http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/52305.  If
you want more extensive examples, look in the *.html.template files of
the htdocs subdirectory of a matplotlib cvs checkout.

JDH


From dbickett at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 23:04:16 2004
From: dbickett at gmail.com (Beeyah)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 20:04:16 -0700
Subject: how to change the text in the title bar of the Tkinter windows
References: <8f17f4bc.0408151822.1be2de2e@posting.google.com>
	<cfpous$kcr$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>
	<8f17f4bc.0408171417.456199d1@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1d6cdae3.0408171904.7c625d81@posting.google.com>

alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali) wrote in message news:<8f17f4bc.0408171417.456199d1 at posting.google.com>...
> Eric Brunel <eric_brunel at despammed.com> wrote in message news:<cfpous$kcr$1 at news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>...
> > Ali wrote:
> > > When I open a window using the Tkinter GUI thing the title bar always
> > > says "Tk". I would like to know how to change this. I would also like
> > > to know how to cjange it on any other popup windows I may have. Please
> > > help.
> > 
> > Just use the 'title' method on your windows. See paragraph 45 in 
> > http://www.pythonware.com/library/tkinter/introduction/index.htm
> > 
> > HTH
> 
> I looked at the website but I did not understand. 
> 
> Um.... is this right? It is supposed to show a window with the
> titlebar showing The Title.
> 
> from Tkinter import *
> 
> root = Tk()
> 
> root.title("The Title")
> 
> root.mainloop()

Yes, that's correct.


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 02:57:49 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:57:49 +1000
Subject: The winner of the Python Decorator Poll is...
In-Reply-To: <59e9fd3a04081122235b3d9145@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Ue-dnX0CBNhaEYfcRVn-ig@comcast.com>
	<mailman.1533.1092259988.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4edc17eb.0408112052.1bbd85b3@posting.google.com>
	<59e9fd3a04081122235b3d9145@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204081223572761b001@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:23:22 +1000, Andrew Durdin <adurdin at gmail.com> wrote:
> Since you like the current proposal, why *didn't* you vote for it (it
> was the first one)?

I didn't vote, because voting is a stupid way to design a language.


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 00:52:50 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 04:52:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Proposal for removing self
References: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01DCFB9C@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>
Message-ID: <loom.20040827T065120-94@post.gmane.org>

Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy <tdelaney <at> avaya.com> writes:
> I evangelise this here (mainly for Java code these days, but close
> enough). Unfortunately, I don't seem to be able to convince anyone else
> :(

I had to work in Java over the summer, and I started using 'this.' for all 
instance variables.  Found it much easier to read my code when I went back to 
it later.  (Of course, I was prompted by Python's syntax, but the real 
motivator was reading someone else's code and having to hunt down their 
instance variables to figure out what was going on...)

Steve




From mwh at python.net  Thu Aug  5 08:11:41 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 12:11:41 GMT
Subject: on the fly document generation
References: <mailman.1174.1091671544.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m3u0vhg4xu.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Ajay <abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au> writes:

> hi!
> 
> i generate a document on the fly and then print it from my script. to force
> the browser to show the 'save file' dialog rather than display the content
> in  the browser, i have added the header Content-Type
> print "Content-Type: application\n"
> however when the save file dialog box comes up, it gives the script name
> (in this case sfile.cgi) as the filename. how can i change that to a
> different filename?
> 
> print "Content-Type: application; name="test.xml\n"

I think it's Content-Disposition: you're after.  ISTR it has some
insane format I can't remember.

> sorry its a little off-topic

I'd say!

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Enlightenment is probably antithetical to impatience.
                                        -- Erik Naggum, comp.lang.lisp


From irmen at -nospam-remove-this-xs4all.nl  Mon Aug  2 06:09:01 2004
From: irmen at -nospam-remove-this-xs4all.nl (Irmen de Jong)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 12:09:01 +0200
Subject: Sets Module Bug?
In-Reply-To: <cel1dm$o7o$1@scrotar.nss.udel.edu>
References: <cel1dm$o7o$1@scrotar.nss.udel.edu>
Message-ID: <410e12bc$0$48959$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>

Chris S. wrote:
>  >>> from sets import *
>  >>> Set((1,2,3))
> Set([1, 2, 3])
>  >>> Set([1,2,3])
> Set([1, 2, 3])
>  >>> Set(([1,2,3],[4,5,6]))
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<input>", line 1, in ?
>   File "sets.py", line 399, in __init__
>     self._update(iterable)
>   File "sets.py", line 344, in _update
>     data[element] = value
> TypeError: list objects are unhashable
> 
> How can a Set using a tuple or list be ok, but not a tuple of lists?

Because "list objects are unhashable", as Python told you :-)
AFAIK the sets module is built upon the dict type, it uses (requires)
the elements of the set to be hashable for efficient containment tests.
The library reference of the sets module also says:
"All of the elements in iterable should be immutable or be transformable to an immutable 
using the protocol described in section 5.13.3. "

--Irmen


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Sat Aug 28 10:43:12 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:43:12 GMT
Subject: Question about references/copies
References: <pan.2004.08.28.07.52.35.422774@gmx.de>
	<1gj870c.dzzhcpvby7ozN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<i1u0j09ik1id9uihf3jkdluhdr5jdurik3@4ax.com>
	<1gj8k1n.1vm9nm4y4avw0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <nq51j0l737pmnserb47pe70od8jiq2jsik@4ax.com>

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 16:02:59 +0200, aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
wrote:

>Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
>   ...
>> I've felt strongly that this key piece of Python learning would be
>> and much, much more inevitable if there was a (preferred) consistent
>> way to ask for a copy, across objects - 
>
>There is: type(obj)(obj) is (almost) always the best way to get a
>(shallow) copy of copyable objects (won't work with noncopyables such as
>files and other iterators, of course) of built-in types (whether
>user-coded types support that popular convention is of course another
>issue -- it depend on the author of each of these types).

>If you know what type obj is, say a list; or, if don't really care
>whether obj is (say) a list or a tuple or ... 'cause what you want is a
>list anyway, then the normal way to spell this is of course list(obj).

Well there is a lot of divergence in practice, as I think you know.
And beyond that no real consensus on what is preferable, as far as I
have been able to determnine  Though hearing Alex declare it as
preferable is the beginning of the formation of some consensus, one
hopes.

>
>> and/or that the copy module
>> was something other than one of XXX importable moudles.
>
>Well, it's Python-coded, so it seems quite natural to me that it be a
>perfectly normal importable module.

I understand, now, the problems with treating the copy module
otherwise than it is.  But it is a strange duck - conceptually in the
middle of things, but with limited functional importance. I thought
only that Ray's idea of setting it off a bit, by mention in the
tutorial, had considerable merit. 
> 
>
>> That dicts and lists (for example) have totally different syntax for
>> copy, helps - I promise - to misdirect and confuse. I happen to
>
>dict(mydict) and list(mylist) appear quite similar to me.  Sure,
>mydict.copy() has stuck around from the dark ages and won't be even
>considered for removal, due to backwards compatibility, until Python 3.0
>some years from now; and mylist[:] also builds a shallow copy; but
>despite their undeserved popularity these are not "the syntax for copy"
>in my book, any more than, say, dict(mydict.iteritems()) for a dict or
>[x for x in mylist] for a list, even though THOSE happen to make shallow
>copies too (and I HAVE seen them used in code intended as "serious").

I agree that dict(mydict) and list(mylist) -  it that is what one saw
with consitentcy in practice - would go a long way. I'll try to
practice it, having gotten into the list[:] habit.  

And ...

It was my understanding - perhaps wrong - that dict.copy() was an
add-on method to dict of non-ancient origin.  How do I check?

>
>> consider this entire area a significant wart. I think I am entitled to
>> consider it so. 
>
>Given the apparent dearth of information in the matter, you may be
>right.  I'll do my best to keep clarifying my viewpoint in my books...

That would be excellant!

ARt




From dd55 at cornell.edu  Mon Aug  2 20:52:33 2004
From: dd55 at cornell.edu (Darren Dale)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 20:52:33 -0400
Subject: file IO
Message-ID: <cemnlj$cd1$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>

Can anyone explain this?

I have a file called old.dat with two lines:

1
2

So it's 3 bytes long. I run the following:

import os
f = file('old.dat',mode='r')
olddata = f.readlines()
f.close()

f = file('new.dat',mode='w')
f.writelines(olddata)
f.close()

new.dat is now 4 bytes long. ???

I need to reformat and then save some data.   Then I need to be able to 
export the reformatted data to a spreadsheet-friendly format. But once I 
have simply copied (trying to isolate the problem) the file using the 
script above, my export function takes 10x as long as it would have with 
the original file. And worse, the output has an extra newline character 
added at the end of each line. Any suggestions would really be 
appreciated, I am going a bit crazy trying to understand this.

Darren


From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Thu Aug 26 15:24:37 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:24:37 -0700
Subject: A little curious about something..
In-Reply-To: <cgib84$9mt$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>
References: <cgib84$9mt$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <10ise6kf99o1hfa@corp.supernews.com>

Player wrote:

>However with the Idle version in python, the GUI and python it's self loads
>allot slower, and if I do the same click-hold to reposition the idle GUI
>window, it chugs and stutters across the screen as I move it, rather slowly
>and no were near as smoothly and fluidly as the Activestates version of the
>Idle GUI window.
>  
>

I'm just guessing here, but the ActiveState IDE, PythonWin, uses native 
Windows widgets from Python, while IDLE uses Tk widgets inside a TCL 
interpreter which is controlled from Python.  This means that IDLE has 
an extra layer or two of indirection.  (And, while I'm sure that TCL is 
a great language within its intended problem domain, I don't believe 
that execution speed has been any sort of priority in its development...)

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From detlev at die-offenbachs.de  Tue Aug 10 14:00:22 2004
From: detlev at die-offenbachs.de (Detlev Offenbach)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 20:00:22 +0200
Subject: Popular Python projects with lots of pure Python code
References: <mailman.1418.1092088893.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <82fnu1-7h3.ln1@stargate.solsys.priv>

Brett C. wrote:

> For my thesis (once the bloody thing stops throwing bugs at me) I am
> going to need to collect stats on the frequency that atomic types in
> local variables are applied to various opcodes and methods.  That means
> that I need something to collect stats off of.
> 
> So I am trying to come up with a list of projects I can use to get my
> stats from.  the stdlib is a no-brainer.  Also plan to use Docutils.
> But beyond those most of the big Python projects I can think of have a
> ton of C code which is of no use to me.  I don't need to be able to run
> it, just going to be compiling to .py files.
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> -Brett

How about eric3 (http://www.die-offenbachs.de/detlev/eric3.html). It has
about 50 klines of code.

Detlev
-- 
Detlev Offenbach
detlev at die-offenbachs.de


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Mon Aug 16 13:53:30 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:53:30 -0400
Subject: Numarray: Using sum() within functions
In-Reply-To: <10hsvoka533ci3c@corp.supernews.com>
References: <10hsvoka533ci3c@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408161336030.13512-100000@ccc3.wpi.edu>

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Jim Cser wrote:

> I have a function to generate a multi-dimensional array, which then
> gets summed over one axis.  The problem is that the dimensions
> are large, and I run out of memory when I create the entire array,
> so I'm trying to do the sum *within* the function.
> 
> Example-- variables x,y,z,t; dimensions numX, numY, numZ, numT;
> functions f1(x,y,z,t), f2(y,z,t);  want to calculate f1*f2 and
> sum over t to get out[x,y,z].

Would something like the following work?

 def f3(x, y, z, t=arange(numT)):
     return sum(f1(x,y,z,t)*f2(y,z,t))

This assumes that f1() and f2() can operate on array objects.  If not, the 
following (much slower) method should work:

 def f3(x, y, z):
     return sum(fromfunction(lambda t: f1(x,y,z,t)*f2(y,z,t),(numT,)))

To make the output matrix, you could use either this:

 out = fromfunction(f3, (numX, numY, numZ))

which will save memory, but will be slow, or (assuming f1 and f2 support 
arrays):

 out = f3(arange(numX), arange(numY), arange(numZ))

which will eat lots of memory (more that you say you have, if you use the
first f3()), but will be very fast.

Hope this helps.



From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Fri Aug  6 22:09:59 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 22:09:59 -0400
Subject: PEP 263 status check
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com> <4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de>
	<10h5hgvpafm8a64@news.supernews.com> <41133C76.8040302@v.loewis.de>
	<10h6rklt3fa1690@news.supernews.com> <41137799.70808@v.loewis.de>
	<10h724r20kkeqb2@news.supernews.com> <4113D8DF.8080106@v.loewis.de>
	<10h7tb8nn53ajbb@news.supernews.com> <4114070F.90507@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <10h8f3md11sou81@news.supernews.com>


"Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote in message
news:4114070F.90507 at v.loewis.de...
> John Roth wrote:
> > Martin, I think you misinterpreted what I said at the
> > beginning. I'm only, and I need to repeat this, ONLY
> > dealing with the case where the encoding declaration
> > specifically says that the script is in UTF-8. No other
> > case.
>
>  From the viewpoint of PEP 263, there is absolutely *no*,
> and I repeat NO difference between chosing UTF-8 and
> chosing windows-1252 as the source encoding.

I don't believe I ever said that PEP 263 said there was
a difference. If I gave you that impression, I will
appologize if you can show me where it I did it.



> > I'm going to deal with your response point by point,
> > but I don't think most of this is really relevant. Your
> > response only makes sense if you missed the point that
> > I was talking about scripts that explicitly declared their
> > encoding to be UTF-8, and no other scripts in no
> > other circumstances.
>
> I don't understand why it is desirable to single out
> UTF-8 as a source encoding. PEP 263 does no such thing,
> except for allowing an addition encoding declaration
> for UTF-8 (by means of the UTF-8 signature).

As far as I'm concerned, what PEP 263 says is utterly
irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make.

The only connection PEP 263 has to the entire thread
(at least from my view) is that I wanted to check on
whether phase 2, as described in the PEP, was
scheduled for 2.4. I was under the impression it was
and was puzzled by not seeing it. You said it wouldn't
be in 2.4. Question answered, no further issue on
that point (but see below for an additonal puzzlement.)

> > I didn't mean the entire source was in 7-bit ascii. What
> > I meant was that if the encoding was utf-8 then the source
> > for 8-bit string literals must be in 7-bit ascii. Nothing more.
>
> PEP 263 never says such a thing. Why did you get this impression
> after reading it?

I didn't get it from the PEP. I got it from what you said. Your
response seemed to make sense only if you assumed that I
had this totally idiotic idea that we should change everything
to 7-bit ascii. That was not my intention.

Let's go back to square one and see if I can explain my
concern from first principles.

8-bit strings have a builtin assumption that one
byte equals one character. This is something that
is ingrained in the basic fabric of many programming
languages, Python included. It's a basic assumption
in the string module, the string methods and all through
just about everything, and it's something that most
programmers expect, and IMO have every right
to expect.

Now, people violate this assumption all the time,
for a number of reasons, including binary data and
encoded data (including utf-8 encodings)
but they do so deliberately, knowing what they're
doing. These particular exceptions don't negate the
rule.

The problem I have is that if you use utf-8 as the
source encoding, you can suddenly drop multi-byte
characters into an 8-bit string ***BY ACCIDENT***.
This accident is not possible with single byte
encodings, which is why I am emphasizing that I
am only talking about source that is encoded in utf-8.
(I don't know what happens with far Eastern multi-byte
encodings.)

UTF-8 encoded source has this problem. Source
encoded with single byte encodings does not have
this problem. It's as simple as that. Accordingly
it is not my intention, and has never been my
intention, to change the way 8-bit string literals
are handled when the source program has a
single byte encoding.

We may disagree on whether this is enough of
a problem that it warrents a solution. That's life.

Now, my suggested solution of this problem was
to require that 8-bit string literals in source that was
encoded with UTF-8 be restricted to the 7-bit
ascii subset. The reason is that there are logically
three things that can be done here if we find a
character that is outside of the 7-bit ascii subset.

One is to do the current practice and violate the
one byte == one character invariant, the second
is to use some encoding to convert the non-ascii
characters into a single byte encoding, thus
preserving the one byte == one character invariant.
The third is to prohibit anything that is ambiguous,
which in practice means to restrict 8-bit literals
to the 7-bit ascii subset (plus hex escapes, of course.)

The second possibility begs the question of what
encoding to use, which is why I don't seriously
propose it (although if I understand Hallvard's
position correctly, that's essentially his proposal.)

> *If* you understood that byte string literals can have the full
> power of the source encoding, plus hex-escaping, I can't see what
> made you think that power did not apply if the source encoding
> was UTF-8.

I think I covered that adequately above. It's not that
it doesn't apply, it's that it's unsafe.

> > It's predictable, but as far as I'm concerned, that's
> > not only useless behavior, it's counterproductive
> > behavior. I find it difficult to imagine any case
> > where the benefit of having normal character
> > literals accidentally contain utf-8 multi-byte
> > characters outweighs the pain of having it happen
> > accidentally, and then figuring out why your program
> > is giving you wierd behavior.
>
> Might be. This is precisely the issue that Hallvard is addressing.
> I agree there should be a mechanism to check whether all significant
> non-ASCII characters are inside Unicode literals.

I think that means we're in substantive agreement (although
I see no reason to restrict comments to 7-bit ascii.)

> I personally would prefer a command line switch over a per-file
> declaration, but that would be the subject of Hallvard's PEP.
> Under no circumstances I would disallow using the full source
> encoding in byte strings, even if the source encoding is UTF-8.

I assume here you intended to mean strings, not literals. If
so, we're in agreement - I see absolutely no reason to even
think of suggesting a change to Python's run time string
handling behavior.

> > There's no reason why you have to have a utf-8
> > encoding declaration. If you want your source to
> > be utf-8, you need to accept the consequences.
>
> Even for UTF-8, you need an encoding declaration (although
> the UTF-8 signature is sufficient for that matter). If
> there is no encoding declaration whatsoever, Python will
> assume that the source is us-ascii.

I think I didn't say this clearly. What I intended to get across
is that there isn't any major reason for a source to be utf-8;
other encodings are for the most part satisfactory.
Saying something about the declaration seems to have muddied
the meaning.

The last sentence puzzles me. In 2.3, absent a declaration
(and absent a parameter on the interpreter) Python assumes
that the source is Latin-1, and phase 2 was to change
this to the 7-bit ascii subset (US-Ascii). That was the
original question at the start of this thread. I had assumed
that change was to go into 2.4, your reply made it seem
that it would go into 2.5 (maybe.) This statement makes
it seem that it is the current state in 2.3.

> > I fully expect Python to support the usual mixture
> > of encodings until 3.0 at least. At that point, everything
> > gets to be rewritten anyway.
>
> I very much doubt that, in two ways:
> a) Python 3.0 will not happen, in any foreseeable future

I probably should let this sleeping dog lie, however,
there is a general expectation that there will be a 3.0
at some point before the heat death of the universe.
I was certainly under that impression, and I've seen
nothing from anyone who I regard as authoratitive until
this statement that says otherwise.

> b) if it happens, much code will stay the same, or only
>     require minor changes. I doubt that non-UTF-8 source
>     encoding will be banned in Python 3.
>
> > Were you able to write your entire program in UTF-8?
> > I think not.
>
> What do you mean, your entire program? All strings?
> Certainly you were. Why not?
>
> Of course, before UTF-8 was an RFC, there were no
> editors available, nor would any operating system
> support output in UTF-8, so you would need to
> organize everything on your own (perhaps it was
> simpler on Plan-9 at that time, but I have never
> really used Plan-9 - and you might have needed
> UTF-1 instead, anyway).

This doesn't make sense in context. I'm not talking
about some misty general UTF-8. I'm talking
about writing Python programs using the c-python
interpreter. Not jython, not IronPython, not some
other programming language.
Specifically, what would the Python 2.2 interpreter
have done if I handed it a program encoded in utf-8?
Was that a legitimate encoding? I don't know whether
it was or not. Clearly it wouldn't have been possible
before the unicode support in 2.0.

John Roth

>
> Regards,
> Martin




From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 03:01:28 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 17:01:28 +1000
Subject: decorators vs GIL
In-Reply-To: <donn-1782D4.11050611082004@gnus01.u.washington.edu>
References: <96c2e938.0408091819.2cd7b50d@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1441.1092142125.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<96c2e938.0408101428.1545fb26@posting.google.com>
	<donn-1782D4.11050611082004@gnus01.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408130001436e71aa@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:05:06 -0700, Donn Cave <donn at u.washington.edu> wrote:
> May have missed some of the context here, I suspect there's
> a particular language that's preventing some particular type
> of access to the thread library, but the details seem to be
> missing.

One other point on Python's thread library - it tries to offer a consistent
set of functions and methods and behaviour across all platforms where
threading exists. It also implements it in terms of the platform's native
threads libraries, rather than implementing it's own. This, in theory, makes
Python more portable, and it's threads more robust.

And then there's HP/UX. Oh well, nice theory.


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 14 23:04:35 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 23:04:35 -0400
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <cfm1r4$8vj$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <9ADC3170-EDAF-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>	<mailman.1652.1092490554.5135.python-list@python.org>	<2o7cipF7g74nU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<cfm1r4$8vj$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <cfmjsh$7ft$1@sea.gmane.org>

> 
>     class Foo:
>     def setX(self, x):
>         self.x = x
> 

The indentation was messed-up on that example.  It should have been...

      class Foo:
          def setX(self, x):
              self.x = x




From adurdin at gmail.com  Sat Aug 21 18:05:21 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 08:05:21 +1000
Subject: Fwd: Overriding logical operators?
In-Reply-To: <59e9fd3a04082101105c50558c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E1C@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
	<59e9fd3a04082101105c50558c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a04082115055dd126e8@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 23:28:20 -0700, Robert Brewer <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote:
>
> The first barrier is that 'or' and 'and' get compiled down to jump
> codes, as opposed to operations:

[snip disassembly>]

> ....so you'd be hacking a completely different section of the compiler to
> enable such overriding.

I wasn't yet planning to hack *any* part of the compiler :)

As far as I can see, the compiler changes would be limited to
compiling "a and b" to bytecode equivalent to

    a.__logand__(lambda b: b)

And bool.__logand__ would work like this:

def bool.__logand__(self, otherlambda):
    if not self:
        return False
    else:
        return bool(otherlambda())

I believe this would handle the short-circuiting. How much
implementation this would require is something I don't know the answer
to yet... I've only just started looking at the python source. At the
least it'd mean compiler changes, but probably also changes to a
number of built-in objects.


From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 19 22:14:53 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:14:53 -0400
Subject: Rita Sue and Bob too
In-Reply-To: <cg3ksb$bg5$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
References: <cg3ksb$bg5$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <xoudnQKszau-w7jcRVn-hA@powergate.ca>

M. Clift wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Can someone help. I promise I've looked how to do this but can't find a
> way...
> 
> Ok, to find one name is easy
> 
> if 'Bob' in list:
>     print "They were found"
> else:
>     print "They are not in list"
> 
> But, how to I find a sequence in a list of unknown size? i.e. this sequence
> in list of other names and replace it with three others?
> 
> 'Rita','Sue','Bob'
> 
> This is almost a nightly occurrence (my posting questions), but I am
> learning : )

My first thought would be to scan the list for the first element
'Rita', and when you find it, take out a slice that is the
same size as the sequence you have there (use len() of course)
and compare the two.  If they don't match, move on.  The scanning
and "moving on" part would certainly best be done using .index()
and note that that function can take a second parameter which
specifies the starting index, so you can do a progressive search
efficiently.  The actual code is left as an exercise to the
reader. ;-)

-Peter


From rtw at freenet.co.uk  Fri Aug  6 09:43:43 2004
From: rtw at freenet.co.uk (Rob Williscroft)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 13:43:43 GMT
Subject: Proposed improved decorator syntax
References: <mailman.1235.1091753699.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Xns953D1C498DEE3ukcoREMOVEfreenetrtw@130.133.1.4>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408060917330.30087-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <Xns953D95B061BEEukcoREMOVEfreenetrtw@130.133.1.4>

Christopher T King wrote in news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0408060917330.30087-100000
@ccc6.wpi.edu in comp.lang.python:

> On 6 Aug 2004, Rob Williscroft wrote:
> 
>>  wrote in news:mailman.1235.1091753699.5135.python-list at python.org in 
>> comp.lang.python:
>> 
>> > class foo:
>> >     def introduceNewFeature(self, someArgument, anotherArgument):
>> >         .decorate = [synchronized]
>> >         .accepts  = (int, int)
>> >         .author   = 'Chris King'
>> >         pass # whatever
>> > 
>> > 
>> 
>> AIUI it is intended that prefix '.' will be used at some point
>> with a 'with'/'using' keyword:
>> 
>> class Foo:
>>   def f( self ):
>>    with self:
>>     .member = value
> 
> Which makes it all the more intuitive (def is acting similar to a with 
> block).
> 

Intuitivly I would then expect .decorate to apply to self not to f.

But that's on a sample of 1 person's intuition :).

Rob.
-- 
http://www.victim-prime.dsl.pipex.com/


From artur_spruce at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  9 10:07:54 2004
From: artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 07:07:54 -0700
Subject: Maybe, just maybe @decorator syntax is ok after all
References: <du7n017ni6o.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>
	<b840abf4.0408080422.44fcf41c@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <b840abf4.0408090607.722880a2@posting.google.com>

artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR) wrote in message news:<b840abf4.0408080422.44fcf41c at posting.google.com>...
> <snip>
> @dec1
> @dec2
> def foo():
>     pass
> 
> <snip> 
> 
> and after the second:
> 
> def foo():
>     pass
> 
> foo = dec2(foo)
> 
> foo = dec1(foo)

The latter is equivalent to:

def foo():
    pass
foo = dec1(dec2(foo))

But I've just noticed that the spec says:

"""
@f1
@f2
def func(): pass

is equivalent to:

def func(): pass
func = f2(f1(func))
"""

So the order is reverse, which breaks my previous interpretation. Oh, well...

AdSR


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Sun Aug  1 14:23:04 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 01 Aug 2004 20:23:04 +0200
Subject: slowdown with massive memory usage
References: <HBF.20040730sz32@bombur.uio.no>
	<oo-dnb9RaowN9Zfc4p2dnA@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040801dyfr@bombur.uio.no>

Istvan Albert wrote:
>Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
> 
>> When I moved a function to create one such dict from near the beginning
>> of the program to a later time, that function slowed down by a factor
>> of 8-14: 38 sec at 15M memory usage, 570 sec at 144M, 330 sec at 200M.
> 
> I suspect there is more to it than just "moving". There must be a reason
> for the reorganization and...

I ran it by hand since it was so slow - and then it wasn't slow.
So I timed it at different places in the program, and also checked
if it gave different results.  It didn't.

> check what other things are you doing and profile
> your program http://docs.python.org/lib/profile.html

Thanks.  I profiled the function with <hotshot.Profile>.runcall() and
print_stats():

The same functions are called, and they are called the same number of
times.  A total of 2872425 function calls.  Only the run times differ.

For example, this simple method (called 90440 times) slows down by a
factor of 7 according to the profiles:

  class PgNumeric:
    ...
    def __int__(self):
      return int(self.__v / self.__sf)

__v and __sf are longs, so there is little room to mess up that one:-)
Debug output shows the same sequence of input values in each run:
  self.__class__.__name__ = 'PgNumeric',
  self.__dict__ = {
    '_PgNumeric__v': <long integer increasing from 7735L to 260167L>,
    '_PgNumeric__p': 12,
    '_PgNumeric__sf': 1L,
    '_PgNumeric__s': 0}.

It "only" slows down by 30% if I add
    class PgNumeric(object):
        __slots__ = ('_PgNumeric__p',  '_PgNumeric__s',
                     '_PgNumeric__sf', '_PgNumeric__v')
but I don't know if such a change to pyPgSQL will be accepted, since
`object' disables the __coerce__() method.  Well, I'll try.

-- 
Hallvard


From pink at odahoda.de  Sat Aug 28 05:38:31 2004
From: pink at odahoda.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:38:31 +0200
Subject: Circular Import?
In-Reply-To: <YYXXc.1084$Tq.821@trndny02>
References: <YYXXc.1084$Tq.821@trndny02>
Message-ID: <cgpjup$lbc$01$1@news.t-online.com>

Chris S. wrote:

> Consider the sample case:
> 
> ## a.py
> import d
> import b
> b.App()
> 
> ## b.py
> from c import C
> B = 'B'
> class App(object):pass
> 
> ## c.py
> from d import D
> class C(object):pass
> 
> ## d.py
> from b import B
> D = 'D'
> 
> Executing a.py will return:
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "a.py", line 1, in ?
>     import d
>   File "d.py", line 1, in ?
>     from b import B
>   File "b.py", line 1, in ?
>     from c import C
>   File "c.py", line 1, in ?
>     from d import D
> ImportError: cannot import name D
> 
> I'm assuming this is the result of the circular imports. This isn't a 
> bug, right? Is there any way around it?
Yep, circular imports only cause problems. Workarounds:
- design your application not to use circular dependencies, as these are 
usually a sign for bad design
- use late imports:

## foo.py
class A:
   def a():
     import bar # instead of importing at the beginning of foo
     bar.B()

## bar.py
import foo

def B():
   pass

class C(A):
   pass





From michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk  Fri Aug 27 07:40:02 2004
From: michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk (Michael Sparks)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:40:02 +0100
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>

Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote:
..
> what do you think?  should I write a PEP?

It's more fun to ask python what it thinks:

michaels at pc474:~/Documents> python
Python 2.3.3 (#1, Apr  6 2004, 01:47:39)
[GCC 3.3.3 (SuSE Linux)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> from __future__ import braces
  File "<stdin>", line 1
SyntaxError: not a chance
>>>
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^

I suspect you might have a hard time getting anywhere with this ;)

Regards,


Michael.
-- 
Michael.Sparks at rd.bbc.co.uk    
British Broadcasting Corporation, Research and Development
Kingswood Warren, Surrey KT20 6NP

This message (and any attachments) may contain personal views
which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.




From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Fri Aug 27 01:41:25 2004
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 22:41:25 -0700
Subject: What GCC version had <stdint.h> defined?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2492.1093573592.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <412e39d1$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
	<412E55A9.9070400@v.loewis.de>	<412e70d3$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
	<mailman.2492.1093573592.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <412ecb16$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

Jeff Epler wrote:
> I glanced at configure.in and it checks for HAVE_UINTPTR_T, but not
> HAVE_INTPTR_T.  If you want this define where it's available, add the
> proper test to configure.in and regenerate configure.

The problem is, of course (Billy G is always a problem), that I am running
on Win2K, so I don't run configure.in.  I have two copies of MinGW --
one 2.95 (no stdint.h), and one 3.2.3 which does do stdint.h.
These were not set up when whoever built windows 2.3.4 did so -- he or
she did not know what was going to be on my disk after I downloaded and
installed python.

So, for me and my ilk ("isn't 'ilk' a lovely word" -- Albee), pyconfig.h
is a constant, not a calculated value.


-Scott David Daniels
Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org


From ian.glover at SYRRIS.com  Tue Aug 31 05:30:51 2004
From: ian.glover at SYRRIS.com (Ian Glover)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:30:51 +0100
Subject: Problem generating functions from C strings
Message-ID: <E03ECA784BD2D04F996B1B5BE16A19E302CE5E@server.SYRRIS.COM>


Hi there,

I'm having problems trying to link C++ and Python. What I want to do is have the C provide a function from a string and then run the function. What I've currently got is

  PyObject* lpyModuleName = PyString_FromString( "__main__" ); // New Ref.
  assert( lpyModuleName );
  PyObject* lpyMain = PyImport_Import( lpyModuleName ); // New Ref.
  assert( lpyMain );
  PyObject* lpyDict = PyModule_GetDict( lpyMain ); // Borrowed.
  assert( lpyDict );
  PyObject* lpyLocals = PyDict_New();

  std::string lCode =
    "import config\n"
    "def PyOperator(parameter):\n"
    "    v1 = config.GetHardware(\"valve\", 1)\n"
    "    v2 = config.GetHardware(\"valve\", 2)\n"
    "    v1.set_position( 1 )\n"
    "    v2.get_position( 1 )\n";

  PyRun_String( lCode.c_str(), Py_file_input, lpyDict, lpyLocals );


  PyObject* lpyFuncName = PyString_FromString( "PyOperator" ); // New Ref.
  assert( lpyFuncName );
  PyObject* lpyFunction = PyDict_GetItem( lpyDict, lpyFuncName ); // Borrowed.

// *** This assertion fails ***
  assert( lpyFunction );
// ****************************

  assert( PyCallable_Check( lpyFunction ) );

  PyObject* lpyArguments = Py_BuildValue("(d)", 2);
  assert( lpyArguments );
  PyObject* lpyResult = PyEval_CallObject( lpyFunction, lpyArguments );

  Py_DECREF( lpyResult );
  Py_DECREF( lpyArguments );
  Py_DECREF( lpyFuncName );
  Py_DECREF( lpyMain );
  Py_DECREF( lpyModuleName );
  Py_DECREF( lpyLocals );


This is in a C++ extension module that and being called via another function that's being exposed. It seems that the function isn't get put in the scope I'd expect. And indeed if I comment out the lines that try and get it so that the assert failure doesn't occur and I can poke around the scopes via dir() I can't see it. So where is it being put? or am I doing this very wrong?

Thanks

Ian


From max at alcyone.com  Fri Aug 13 06:10:58 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 03:10:58 -0700
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<411C8CD9.32F39C2@mega-nerd.com>
Message-ID: <411C93B2.2027B48B@alcyone.com>

Erik de Castro Lopo wrote:

> I know of at least one language which has solved this problem, Ocaml
> 
>     http://www.ocaml.org/
> 
> Its called type inferencing and since there is at least one working
> implementation, it can't be THAT hard.

That's actually the kind of thing that is planned for Python with
Starkiller, however silly a project name that might be.

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ If love is the answer, could you rephrase the question?
    -- Lily Tomlin


From curty at free.fr  Sat Aug 21 08:15:01 2004
From: curty at free.fr (Curt)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 12:15:01 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl> <ZFoVc.360$MR2.1503@news1.mts.net>
	<cg55p6$ofq$1@news.wrc.xerox.com>
	<JYuVc.410$MR2.2033@news1.mts.net>
Message-ID: <slrncieen1.11r.curty@einstein.electron.net>

On 2004-08-20, Reid Nichol <rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com> wrote:

> True, but this doesn't change the definition of the word.

> from dictionary.reference.com:
> The smallest amount of a physical quantity that can exist independently, 
> especially a discrete quantity of electromagnetic radiation.

That's the definition of the word "quantum"; it is not the definition of the 
expression "quantum leap".

curty at einstein:~$ dict "quantum leap"

1 definition found

>From WordNet (r) 2.0 [wn]:

  quantum leap
       n : a sudden large increase or advance; "this may not insure
           success but it will represent a quantum leap from last
           summer" [syn: {quantum jump}]




From egbert.list at hccnet.nl  Wed Aug 18 13:46:01 2004
From: egbert.list at hccnet.nl (Egbert Bouwman)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:46:01 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <zGLUc.4438$bJ2.29655@news1.mts.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<mailman.1866.1092838539.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<zGLUc.4438$bJ2.29655@news1.mts.net>
Message-ID: <20040818174601.GA3863@mirk.lan>

67. My impression is that it easier to learn python when you are younger.
egbert
-- 
Egbert Bouwman - Keizersgracht 197 II - 1016 DS  Amsterdam - 020 6257991
========================================================================


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Tue Aug 24 10:04:02 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 07:04:02 -0700
Subject: How to set wxTextCtrl style to wxHSCROLL?
References: <b8abecbd.0408202131.3418dae@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1093356734.77170@news.commspeed.net>


"Tim" <timblack1 at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b8abecbd.0408202131.3418dae at posting.google.com...
> How can I set the style attribute in the following wxTextCtrl to a new
> style AFTER I have already instantiated the wxTextCtrl?  I'm trying to
> toggle the word wrap attribute of the wxTextCtrl, just like Edit->Word
> Wrap does in Windows Notepad.  (I'm building a Windows Notepad clone
> in wxPython to prove to a VB friend that it can be done.)
>
> Here is the wxTextCtrl instantiation:
>
> --------------
>     self.txtEditor = wxTextCtrl(id=wxID_WXFRAME1TXTEDITOR,
> name='txtEditor',
>         parent=self, pos=wxPoint(0, 0), size=wxSize(760, 492),
>         style=wxTE_MULTILINE, value='')
> --------------
>
> Here is the code I've tried to set the style to a new value:
>
> --------------
>     def OnMnuEditWordwrapMenu(self, event):
>         # TODO: implement word wrap
>         self.txtEditor.SetStyle(0, self.txtEditor.GetLastPosition(),
> wxHSCROLL)
>         #self.txtEditor.style = 'wxHSCROLL'
>
> --------------
>
> What is the correct syntax?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Tim
I might try
import wx

self.txtEditor.style = wx.HSCROLL
#wx.HSCROLL if an integer constant
self.txtEditor.Refresh()

You should be useing something like wx.StyledTextCtrl which has all of the
functionality built in. One thing you don't need to prove to any programmer
is that Python can be as difficult as any language. Find the proper library
to do your task, import it and use it.

Tom




From yaoroland07 at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 23 08:12:07 2004
From: yaoroland07 at yahoo.com (Roland)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 05:12:07 -0700
Subject: comment utiliser python sous Fedora
Message-ID: <8e16829.0408230412.cf13db4@posting.google.com>

Salut ,

     Je suis un debutant pour linux. Et j'ai actuellement RedHat
Fedora Core1 . Je voudrais developper une application (ie un logiciel
de gestion de Bibliotheque ) avec python mais j'ai des problemes:
  

- Premierement je n'ai aucune documentation sur l'usage de python sou
Fedora. Pourriez vous m'indiquer un endroit ou je peux t?l?charger un
cours ? ce sujet?
- Deuxiemement , mon python tourne sur le compilateur GCC et je sais
pas comment faire des interfaces graphiques tout comme on le fat avec
Tkinter dans certains cas.
        Aidez moi s'il vous plait.
    merci.


From godoy at ieee.org  Wed Aug 18 16:28:48 2004
From: godoy at ieee.org (Jorge Godoy)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:28:48 -0300
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<YYJUc.25590$nx2.11239@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <m31xi48a2n.fsf@g2ctech.com>

"Adonis" <adonisv at DELETETHISTEXTearthlink.net> writes:

> 23

I'm 25... 

-- 
Godoy.     <godoy at ieee.org>


From alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 17 18:17:30 2004
From: alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 15:17:30 -0700
Subject: how to change the text in the title bar of the Tkinter windows
References: <8f17f4bc.0408151822.1be2de2e@posting.google.com>
	<cfpous$kcr$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <8f17f4bc.0408171417.456199d1@posting.google.com>

Eric Brunel <eric_brunel at despammed.com> wrote in message news:<cfpous$kcr$1 at news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>...
> Ali wrote:
> > When I open a window using the Tkinter GUI thing the title bar always
> > says "Tk". I would like to know how to change this. I would also like
> > to know how to cjange it on any other popup windows I may have. Please
> > help.
> 
> Just use the 'title' method on your windows. See paragraph 45 in 
> http://www.pythonware.com/library/tkinter/introduction/index.htm
> 
> HTH

I looked at the website but I did not understand. 

Um.... is this right? It is supposed to show a window with the
titlebar showing The Title.

from Tkinter import *

root = Tk()

root.title("The Title")

root.mainloop()


From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Wed Aug 25 14:05:34 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 20:05:34 +0200
Subject: using windows defaults for executing/examining files
References: <cgijsq$38a$1@news-int2.gatech.edu>
Message-ID: <cgikd2$bnb$02$1@news.t-online.com>

Micah wrote:

> Is there an os module call to request that Windows handle a specific file
> using the default handler?  For example, if I pass it a .txt file it opens
> notepad but if I pass a .wav file it opens Windows Media Player.

os.startfile()

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From rickpasotto at chi.news.speakeasy.net  Sun Aug 29 19:55:30 2004
From: rickpasotto at chi.news.speakeasy.net (Rick Pasotto)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 18:55:30 -0500
Subject: catching a system error
Message-ID: <slrncj4r7h.cq2.rickpasotto@tc.niof.net>

Using Tkinter and tkFont I'm trying to display all the different fonts
on my system. Mostly it works but some of the fonts bomb out. Perhaps
because the font is defective or doesn't have a character that I'm
trying to display. Anyway, even though I've got the code in a try/except
block the program crashes with an error like this:

X Error of failed request:  BadValue (integer parameter out of range for operation)
  Major opcode of failed request:  45 (X_OpenFont)
  Value in failed request:  0x2400094
  Serial number of failed request:  5573
  Current serial number in output stream:  5574

How can I catch this error either before (by inspecting the font) or
after so the program can continue?

debian linux, python 2.3.4

-- 
Any fool can make a rule, and every fool will mind it. -Cousin Woodman
    Rick Pasotto    rick at niof.net    http://www.niof.net


From tim.peters at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 17:03:55 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:03:55 -0400
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E6F@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E6F@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <1f7befae040826140339155a46@mail.gmail.com>

[Robert Brewer]
> The J2 proposal is as complete as it will ever be.
>
> http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html

Word to the wise:  Guido will have to scroll down 5 pages in his
browser before he has any idea what "J2" might look like, at which
point it appears to start with the senseless:

<token>:

He'll have to slog thru another 5 pages before seeing that "using" is
the specific suggestion being made.

IOW, this is a truly wonderful presentation for people who have made
this debate their life's primary hobby, but someone looking for its
recommendation will probably give up before getting within 7 pages of
it.

IOOW, start the page with a concrete J2-with-"using"-versus-pie
example -- put the conclusion first, followed by reams of supporting
argument.


From zanesdad at bellsouth.net  Wed Aug 18 07:46:24 2004
From: zanesdad at bellsouth.net (Jeremy Jones)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 07:46:24 -0400
Subject: network server threading
In-Reply-To: <1092776954.30276.27.camel@localhost>
References: <1092776954.30276.27.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <41234190.1030401@bellsouth.net>

James R. Saker Jr. wrote:

>I've got a: "start server thread > Queue object, start server thread <>
>Queue object, start parsing client < Queue object" application that's
>got me puzzled. Probably an easy threads issue, but after digging thru
>Programming Python and Python Recipes sections on Threading class and
>running thru the examples, I'm still missing something.
>  
>
Are you trying to spawn multiple threads (i.e in the same process) or 
are you wanting to spawn multiple processes or a combination of both?

>My Server/Server/Client app is a syslog collector app (syslog input in,
>zope control web interface to manage ala start/stop/status, and BEEPy
>out) - two servers and one client app that has got me somewhat puzzled
>per how to handle with threads. The app:
>
>1. read in config file
>2. launch a syslog server to listen on port 514, taking input and
>putting it into a database-persistent Queue (I'm using BDB's DB_QUEUE
>implemented in a class Logfile which I've created to allow me to:
>  
>
If you are using multiple processes rather than multiple threads, I 
would recommend against pointing the multiple processes at a database 
file (or any file, for that matter).  That just gives me the heebie 
jeebies thinking about it.  You run too great of a risk that two 
processes could try to update the database file at the same time, which 
would be disastrous.  Or, two of the processes could pull the same thing 
out of the queue at the same time, which could also be disastrous.  So, 
if you're passing the queue object among multiple threads, you may be 
OK, assuming that this library is thread safe (which is not necessarily 
a safe assumption).

>	l = Logfile(db_filename, db_recsize) ## BSD DB's Queue has a fixed
>record length limitation which gets set by db.set_re_len
>
>	and then
>
>	l.push("Syslog data.....")
>	l.push("More syslog data...")
>
>	as well as l.pop(), l.hasrec() and l.size() methods to control
>	the Queue.
>
>3. runs a test message to see if I've launched the first server and am
>ready to do more work (this is where the second server and client will
>come in once I'm crawling along).
>
>The problem I run into is that I'm apparently not threading the syslog
>server and returning control to my app:
>
>class Syslogd(ThreadingUDPServer, InterruptibleServer):
>
>is based on:
>http://www.drbeat.li/pycgi/webutil.py/html?py=py/syslogd.py.txt
>with modifications to reference my Berkeley DB Queue, instead of
>displaying to sys.stdout.write. So far, so good - I'm logging and
>writing to the database (though it appears to be committing on the
>db.close() rather than writes, but that's another issue I'll have to
>deal with via the BSD DB C/Java docs since the Python docs on it's Queue
>method are limited - I've looked at ZODB for this as well).
>
>Here's where I get into trouble, and as mentioned at the beginning, is
>probably just a lack of me getting threads:
>
>if __name__ == '__main__':
>
>    try:
>        log = Logfile('syslog.db',255) # create BSD DB Queue object
>        syslogd = Syslogd(log, timefmt='%H:%M:%S') #create syslog object
>        syslogd.serve() #start serving syslog input on port
>  
>
OK - what you've just done here with the .serve() method is to start the 
syslogd server in the process's main thread of control.  Is that what 
you are really wanting to do?  This is not a bad thing if that's what 
you intended.  But from above, it sounded like you wanted to spawn a 
thread to run the syslogd server, then spawn another thread to run some 
other server, and maybe another thread to pull stuff off of the queue 
and parse it and (I guess) do something with it.  And, actually, since 
you are subclassing InterruptibleServer, you probably do want to spin 
this off into another thread (with a reference to it in the current 
thread so you can call the "stop" method on it when you get ready to).

>	print "This is a test"
>    except KeyboardInterrupt:
>        print "Closing queue database..."
>        log.close()
>        print "Operation canceled by user."
>    
>
>I never get to the test print, as once I'm in syslog.serve(), I'm there
>until I quit. Maybe I'm missing the logic here completely - if I want to
>share access to Logfile between syslogd object and two other objects, am
>I on the wrong track? 
>  
>
I'd have to see more of your code to be sure, but it's looking like the 
answer is, "probably."

>Eventually, after threading syslog.serve(), I need to do the same with
>the Zope HTTP service (which allows control to the application, much
>like HTTP to a Linksys router for status, configuration, start, stop
>functions), and also launching the BEEPy parsing of data from the Queue
>which gets passed onto a database upstream. Talking BEEP is a must due
>to the firewalls involved, so no distributed object approach will help
>here. A "syslogd in, dump to queue backed by database in case device
>gets shut off before it can parse and send, and a parse & send via BEEP
>engine" model.
>  
>
<shameless_plug>If you need a threadsafe, persistent queue library, you 
may want to check out Munkware:
http://munkware.sourceforge.net/
http://sourceforge.net/projects/munkware
If you need a queue to run in a threading server that will field 
multiple requests, you may want to get Munkware from CVS as I've just 
wrapped the base library in an XMLRPCServer.
</shameless_plug>

>Maybe there's a better example out there of:
>1. start server dumping to a shared object
>2. start another server accessing a shared object
>3. start a client processing the shared object
>
>model someone is aware of - ala Queue? 
>  
>
I don't have an example handy of  using one of the SocketServers, but 
here is an example of spawning some threads to put something into a 
shared queue and spawning more threads to take stuff off of the same 
shared queue:

################################################################
#!/usr/bin/python

'''
This script will create:
        10 consumer threads
        10 producer threads
Each producer will put something on the queue then sleep for 2 seconds.  
The consumers are busy getting stuff all the time.  I've put some dialog 
in so that each thread will tell what it is doing.
'''

import threading
import Queue
import time


class Putter(threading.Thread):
    def __init__(self, q, num):
        self.q = q
        self.num = num
        threading.Thread.__init__(self)
    def run(self):
        counter = 1
        prompt = "p-%s >" % self.num
        while 1:
            print "%s Putting..." % prompt
            q.put("Test %s::%s" % (self.num, counter))
            print "%s Put %s" % (prompt, counter)
            time.sleep(2)
            counter = counter + 1

class Getter(threading.Thread):
    def __init__(self, q, num):
        self.q = q
        self.num = num
        threading.Thread.__init__(self)
    def run(self):
        counter = 1
        prompt = "g-%s >" % self.num
        while 1:
            print "%s Getting...." % prompt
            item = q.get()
            print "%s Got %s" % (prompt, str(item))
            counter = counter + 1

if __name__ == "__main__":
    q = Queue.Queue()
    for foo in range(10):
        pt = Putter(q, foo)
        pt.start()
    for foo in range(10):
        gt = Getter(q, foo)
        gt.start()
################################################################

You may want to check out Aahz's excellent thread tutorial.  It can be 
found at http://starship.python.net/crew/aahz/OSCON2001/index.html.

Hope this helped,

Jeremy


>Thanks much... 
>
>Jamie
>"So much to learn, so little caffeine!"
>
>
>  
>



From jburns131 at adelphia.net  Wed Aug 11 14:56:59 2004
From: jburns131 at adelphia.net (Jesse B.)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:56:59 -0700
Subject: IDLE vs Command Line
References: <8PidncxTb4muxITcRVn-oQ@adelphia.com>
	<1092193503.54033@news.commspeed.net>
Message-ID: <ka-dnaRsvu4g3IfcRVn-sg@adelphia.com>

Thanks for the feedback. It's happened before, but I was prob using the same
mistake.

"Tom B." <sbabbitt at commspeed.net> wrote in message
news:1092193503.54033 at news.commspeed.net...
>
> "Jesse B." <jburns131 at adelphia.net> wrote in message
> news:8PidncxTb4muxITcRVn-oQ at adelphia.com...
> > I like to work with xemacs, so I've been coding modules with xemacs and
> > running them using the dos prompt (using windows port of xemacs). Some
> > scripts that work fine with IDLE don't work at the dos prompt. For
> example:
> >
> > import random
> >
> > for i in range(10):
> >     x = random.random()
> >     print x
> >
> > This simple script doesn't work if  I use the command prompt, with this
> > syntax: python random.py
> >
> > I am just wondering why that is.
> >
>  It is running the copy of random.py from the python lib not your
random.py
>
> Tom
>
> P.S. it is not trying to import itself!
>
>




From ville at spammers.com  Thu Aug 26 14:42:05 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 21:42:05 +0300
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgkeio$spo$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<7xhdqp967k.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <du7sma94u82.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Paul" == Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> writes:

    Paul> out not to be the right thing.  But for new language syntax,
    Paul> whatever gets implemented, we are going to be stuck with.
    Paul> There will be no refactoring possible.  It's imperative to
    Paul> get it right the first time.  The Scheme community
    Paul> understood this idea and was extremely careful

Well, there will be py3k that will be able to break the
compatibility. Code using decorators also be automatically
modified to use a different decorator syntax (or no syntax at all) if
they, for some reason, turn out to be a terrible idea.

    Paul> about adding new features to Scheme even when it was clear
    Paul> that the features were needed.  I think Scheme benefited as
    Paul> a result.

As proved by its mindblowing success ;-)?  *ducks*

Python culture is fundamentally different from the Scheme culture, and
even Lisp culture - this is possibly one of the reasons for its
success. It's not about "we've got all we need, thank you - and don't
you dare suggest anything else" but "this would allow much more
elegant code, even if not strictly necessary". That's why we have List
Comprehensions, generators, iterators at core, and soon genexps (and
yes, decorators).

Down that road doesn't necessarily lie C++, which has problems with
its basic foundation, not with the later additions. Python computation
model has a very simple and "obvious" feel to it, and additions just
enable us to rev it up a little bit more.

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Aug 19 18:36:47 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (Simon John)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 15:36:47 -0700
Subject: ANN: pyxe
Message-ID: <cg3a1v$m00@odbk17.prod.google.com>

Leave the .py off the end:

  pyxe /BUILD hello



From lbates at swamisoft.com  Mon Aug 30 10:43:06 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:43:06 -0500
Subject: Get Parent path value (bad design) Help
References: <mailman.2601.1093875943.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <rKSdnfhQy55qoa7cRVn-pQ@comcast.com>


"Golawala, Moiz M (GE Infrastructure)" <Moiz.Golawala at ge.com> wrote in
message news:mailman.2601.1093875943.5135.python-list at python.org...
Hi all,

What I am trying to do is write some generic code where I can get the path
of the parent directory. for example if current working directory is
'Z:\\dirA\\Parent\\Child'

I want to get a string which up like 'Z:\\dirA\\Parent'
Then I do a sys.path.append('Z:\\dirA\\Parent')

The code I have written below does all this.. but I have a feeling there is
a better way to do this.. Please can someone help me.

import os
import sys
pathname = os.getcwd()
pathString = ''
pathList = pathname.split("\\")

pathList.pop()  # removes the child
lastItem = pathList.pop() #remove to the parent, will be added back later.
counter = 0
while counter != len(pathList):  #build up the path with items in the list
    pathString = pathString + pathList[counter] + "\\\\"
    counter +=1
pathString = pathString + lastItem #add parent back to the built up path
sys.path.append(pathString) #append the path back to sys.path


Thanks,
Moiz Golawala




From mike at radisys.com  Mon Aug 16 06:40:41 2004
From: mike at radisys.com (mike at radisys.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:10:41 +0530
Subject: photos
Message-ID: <200408161040.i7GAeh4L013958@ihemail2.lucent.com>


Found virus WORM_RATOS.A in file photos_arc.exe
The file photos_arc.exe is moved to /var/quarantine/virus/virKJM0dLAYT.

This is a machine-generated message, please do not reply via e-mail. If you have questions, please contact the Lucent Help Desk at +1 888 300 0770.

---------------------------------------------------------
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------------------  Virus Warning Message (on the network)

photos_arc.exe is removed from here because it contains a virus.

---------------------------------------------------------

From FBatista at uniFON.com.ar  Tue Aug  3 15:59:08 2004
From: FBatista at uniFON.com.ar (Batista, Facundo)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 16:59:08 -0300 
Subject: simple Thread question
Message-ID: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C7743@escpl.tcp.com.ar>

Look at start() method of threading.Thread.

.	Facundo

#- -----Mensaje original-----
#- De: adeger at netlibrary.com [mailto:adeger at netlibrary.com]
#- Enviado el: Martes, 03 de Agosto de 2004 16:52
#- Para: python-list at python.org
#- Asunto: simple Thread question
#- 
#- 
#- Having trouble with my first forays into threads.  Basically, the
#- threads don't seem to be working in parallel (or you might say are
#- blocking).  I've boiled my problems to the following short code block
#- and ensuing output.  Seems like the output should be all interleaved
#- and of course it's not.  Running Python 2.2 from ActiveState on
#- Windows XP (also doesn't work on Windows 2000).
#- 
#- Thanks in advance!
#- adeger
#- 
#- #====================================================
#- 
#- import threading
#- 
#- class TestThr(threading.Thread):
#- 	def __init__(self):
#- 		threading.Thread.__init__(self)
#- 
#- 	def run(self, name):
#- 		import time
#- 		for i in range(1,11):
#- 			print 'thread ', name, ' instance ', str(i)
#- 			time.sleep(1)
#- 
#- threads = []
#- for inst in ('a', 'b', 'c'):
#- 	thread = TestThr()
#- 	thread.run(inst)
#- 	threads.append(thread)
#- 
#- # output below
#- thread  a  instance  1
#- thread  a  instance  2
#- thread  a  instance  3
#- thread  a  instance  4
#- thread  a  instance  5
#- thread  a  instance  6
#- thread  a  instance  7
#- thread  a  instance  8
#- thread  a  instance  9
#- thread  a  instance  10
#- thread  b  instance  1
#- thread  b  instance  2
#- thread  b  instance  3
#- thread  b  instance  4
#- thread  b  instance  5
#- thread  b  instance  6
#- thread  b  instance  7
#- thread  b  instance  8
#- thread  b  instance  9
#- thread  b  instance  10
#- thread  c  instance  1
#- thread  c  instance  2
#- thread  c  instance  3
#- thread  c  instance  4
#- thread  c  instance  5
#- thread  c  instance  6
#- thread  c  instance  7
#- thread  c  instance  8
#- thread  c  instance  9
#- thread  c  instance  10
#- -- 
#- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
#- 





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From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Tue Aug 24 17:33:04 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:33:04 +0200
Subject: Late binding eval()?
References: <20040824142636721-0400@braeburn.themorgue.org>
Message-ID: <cggc6b$jq7$02$1@news.t-online.com>

Kevin Smith wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have any ideas on how to do this?

A hack-approach to this migth be to eval in a loop and catch the NameError,
extract the name and bind it like this:


exp = "x * y + z"

z = 10

run = True
while run:
    try:
        print eval(exp)
        run = False
    except NameError, e:
        name = e.args[0].split("'")[1]
        globals()[name] = 10
    

Of course you can prompt the user for input, or collect the names and try to
get them at once from whereever.

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From rpw3 at rpw3.org  Mon Aug 30 20:19:04 2004
From: rpw3 at rpw3.org (Rob Warnock)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 19:19:04 -0500
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<slrncj1745.t5q.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<41337FC9.8070902@hotmail.com>
	<87wtzgmd4p.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>
Message-ID: <H7SdnZC1jO1lXq7cRVn-pg@speakeasy.net>

Pascal Bourguignon  <spam at mouse-potato.com> wrote:
+---------------
| Antony Sequeira <usemyfullname at hotmail.com> writes:
| > Windows (MS) is not 'Unixism'?
| 
| It's VMS'ism !
+---------------

Well, originally, certainly, in the core of the kernel.
But there are plenty enough "Unixisms" in the rest of it!
[Go re-read "Worse is Better", then see if you don't agree...]


-Rob

-----
Rob Warnock			<rpw3 at rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue			<URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403		(650)572-2607



From enjoylife_95135 at hotmail.com  Sun Aug  1 23:26:56 2004
From: enjoylife_95135 at hotmail.com (enjoylife_95135)
Date: 1 Aug 2004 20:26:56 -0700
Subject: Recommendations for books on Python and XML
References: <864c2cd6.0407261121.5a019d57@posting.google.com>
	<a5415304.0407270409.78c52765@posting.google.com>
	<864c2cd6.0407271358.684b09e0@posting.google.com>
	<d116fbae.0407300950.3d38f4c7@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <864c2cd6.0408011926.69ad3c08@posting.google.com>

Thank you so much for your input. I will be sure to follow your column
carefully. Lots of fun catching up to do now :-)

Regards,
S



uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji) wrote in message news:<d116fbae.0407300950.3d38f4c7 at posting.google.com>...
> enjoylife_95135 at hotmail.com (enjoylife_95135) wrote in message news:<864c2cd6.0407271358.684b09e0 at posting.google.com>...
> > Cool. I went with your recommendation and picked up the Jones/Drake
> > book from the bookstore.
> 
> In that case you might want to browse
> 
> http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2002/12/11/py-xml.html
> 
> Also, I have a brief discussion of books at the start of
> 
> http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2002/09/18/py.html
> 
> Overall, see also
> 
> http://www.xml.com/pub/at/24
> http://uche.ogbuji.net/akara/nodes/2003-01-01/pyxml-akara?xslt=/akara/akara.xslt
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> -- 
> Uche Ogbuji                                    Fourthought, Inc.
> http://uche.ogbuji.net    http://4Suite.org    http://fourthought.com
> Perspective on XML: Steady steps spell success with Google -
> http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp?id=9663
> Use XML namespaces with care -
> http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-namcar.html
> Managing XML libraries - http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp?id=9160
> Commentary on "Objects. Encapsulation. XML?" -
> http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp?id=9090
> Harold's Effective XML -
> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-think25.html
> A survey of XML standards -
> http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-stand4/


From alanmk at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 11 08:10:42 2004
From: alanmk at hotmail.com (Alan Kennedy)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:10:42 +0100
Subject: jython and java exceptions
In-Reply-To: <cfcs7u$1ajq$1@ns.felk.cvut.cz>
References: <slrnch2dqk.1h3.gregor.jan@ins1.opera.com>
	<g74Rc.24553$Z14.7458@news.indigo.ie>
	<cfcs7u$1ajq$1@ns.felk.cvut.cz>
Message-ID: <4_nSc.24773$Z14.7584@news.indigo.ie>

[Jan Gregor]
 > I tried it again with SQLException only but my main loop ends with
 > uncatched com.sybase.jdbc2.jdbc.SybSQLException.

Strange indeed. The only explanation I can think of offhand for the 
exception not being caught is if com.sybase.jdbc2.jdbc.SybSQLException 
is not a subclass of java.sql.SQLException.

Unfortunately, I can't seem to find the javadoc for the Sybase JDBC 
driver online (which is poor performance from Sybase).

Try code of the following form to see what the nature of the exception is

import java.lang.Exception
import java.sql.SQLException

try:
   # Insert your exception generating code here
except java.lang.Exception, jlx: # Catch every possible java exception
   if isinstance(jlx, java.sql.SQLException):
     print "Exc %s is subclass of java.sql.SQLException" % jlx.toString()
   else:
     print "Exc %s != subclass of java.sql.SQLException!" % jlx.toString()

Run that and let us know what the output is.

-- 
alan kennedy
------------------------------------------------------
email alan:              http://xhaus.com/contact/alan


From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Fri Aug 20 09:30:21 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:30:21 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Hu-dndEv47ZxYbjcRVn-pA@giganews.com>

Paul McGuire wrote:

> The significant alternatives have been listed on the Python wiki at
> http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators .

This page lists all the choices and not just the alternatives.

> I would propose a multivote survey: each poster gets 3 votes among the
> lettered choices on the Wiki page above.  You can use all 3 for a single
> option, or split them across 2 or 3 options if you are open to more than
> one.

I have noticed that many people thought (or implied) that they
should be voting only for alternatives. Others voted for the
the existing implementation. This makes this poll even more
unreliable than usually.

I don't think one should ever devise a poll to test for
*second* options only. The second option only makes sense
in proper context when compared to the first option.

As more an more syntaxes came up and faced with increasingly
hairy syntaxes and heated arguments  I start to believe
that Guido's choice is actually the best.

A1 E1

Istvan.


From __peter__ at web.de  Sat Aug 21 06:48:57 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:48:57 +0200
Subject: Rita Sue and Bob too
References: <cg3ksb$bg5$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-310D02.09414120082004@localhost>
	<cg54tb$26p$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<7tKdndVxj-WwurvcRVn-gA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <cg79ap$q10$05$2@news.t-online.com>

Peter Hansen wrote:

> M. Clift wrote:
> 
>> If I wasn't happy enough already with the examples/ideas you've all shown
>> me, how about searching as previously, but where the middle name could be
>> anything. i.e. 'Rita', 'anyname','Bob'
> 
> How about this? (may need more test cases, and then perhaps fixes):

A properly crafted test suite invites refactoring :-)

class Anything:
     '''wildcard: matches anything'''
     def __eq__(self, other):
        return True
Anything = Anything() # bad style, I know

def sliceIndex(seq, sub, start=0):
     '''search starting at 'start' for sub in seq, return index of match
or -1'''
     try:
         i = seq.index(sub[0], start)
         while i >= 0:
             if seq[i:i+len(sub)] == sub:
                 return i
             i = seq.index(sub[0], i+1)
     except ValueError:
         pass
     return -1

> def test():
>      case1 = ['Rita', 'Sue', 'Bob']
>      alist = 'Rita Mary Jane Bob Sue Carl Hans Rita Bob Sue'.split()
>      assert sliceIndex([], case1) == -1
>      assert sliceIndex(alist, case1) == -1
> 
>      alist = 'Rita Mary Jane Bob Rita Carl Bob Hans Rita Sue Bob Sue
> Rita Sue Bob'.split()
>      assert sliceIndex(alist, case1) == 8
>      assert sliceIndex(alist, case1, 9) == 12
>      assert sliceIndex(alist, case1, 13) == -1
> 
>      case2 = ['Rita', Anything, 'Bob']
>      assert sliceIndex(alist, case2) == 4
>      assert sliceIndex(alist, case2, 5) == 8
>      assert sliceIndex(alist, case2, 9) == 12
> 
> 
> if __name__ == '__main__':
>      test()



From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Mon Aug 30 16:12:04 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 22:12:04 +0200
Subject: Search for AVI file?
In-Reply-To: <ol17j0pdpiuubu6f9n5vpho4136vimsq6n@4ax.com>
References: <ol17j0pdpiuubu6f9n5vpho4136vimsq6n@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408302208480.1162-100000@kleigh.nl>

John Doe schreef:

> I realise that this is not really a python question, but python's the
> only language I'd be comfortable trying to deal with this.
>
> What I need is to search a drive and find all the AVI format files
> that are NOT listed with the AVI extension.  I'm looking over an old
> drive of mine from an old computer.  I know the files were renamed
> with the wrong extension, but I know that they were originally AVI
> files.  Can python do this for me?  Any hints?  Anybody have a link to
> something that would already do this?  I appreciate any help.

Use walk() to find all files. Open each file and read in the
first 12 bytes. The last four of those 12 bytes should be
'AVI ', if I'm not mistaken.

-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html

The Halloween Documents: http://www.opensource.org/halloween/



From godoy at ieee.org  Mon Aug 30 07:41:45 2004
From: godoy at ieee.org (Jorge Godoy)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 08:41:45 -0300
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<1LMXc.67190$UTP.37420@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj7a9r.g7ec5a1g89rj0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<m3wtzk4562.fsf@g2ctech.com>
	<just-18D650.10163828082004@news1.news.xs4all.nl>
	<m3sma5zqx0.fsf@g2ctech.com>
	<just-BA4B64.22210729082004@news1.news.xs4all.nl>
	<m3oektzkj2.fsf@g2ctech.com>
	<just-498748.08324330082004@news1.news.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <m3ekloont2.fsf@g2ctech.com>

Just <just at xs4all.nl> writes:

> In article <m3oektzkj2.fsf at g2ctech.com>, Jorge Godoy <godoy at ieee.org> 
> wrote:
>
>> Just <just at xs4all.nl> writes:
>> 
>> > But since .pyc's are always generated in the same directory as the .py 
>> > files, where else would you expect them to be generated?
>> 
>> At the directory where the zip archive is stored.
>
> How does that follow? The zip archive _itself_ is the "directory" where 
> the .py files are, why would Python suddenly choose to write .pyc files 
> one level up? And what about packages? It simply doesn't work that way.

Because the implementation that allowed to unzip the "directory" and
find the files in there would also allow to place the '.pyc' in a
different place such as the real directory where the zip file resides.

Python didn't use to open zip files also, and now it does.  I don't see
nothing wrong with making it also writing the '.pyc' files.  Do you? 

-- 
Godoy.     <godoy at ieee.org>


From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Sat Aug 14 02:36:56 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 23:36:56 -0700
Subject: Py2exe Question - Deployment Advice
References: <ca9de3e2.0408132109.5338c1ac@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <mho0v1-ovq.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

Dave Guenthner wrote:
> For Perl, I used the Perl2exe product and I was simply given one file
> .exe to distribute.  Has anyone one else run into this before /
> experienced that.  Is there a way to have just one file?

I believe the McMillan installer does that.  (It actually "cheats"
and effectively unpacks itself into a temp directory every time
you run the program).

I actually just use InnoSetup to distribute my program.  That also
takes care of things like putting icons in the menus and providing
an uninstall entry in the Control Panel, as well as upgrades.

The simple technical reason why there are multiple files is because
the Python implementors put the mandatory functionality into
the main dll, and have the seperate ones for optional functionality
such as regular expressions, sockets, CSV, XML etc.

Under the hood py2exe uses modulefinder.  modulefinder finds every
module your program could potentially use.  For example, if you
use URLs and the url library, that library references the SSL
library.  modulefinder will include both, even though you may
never use an SSL based url.

If you know for certain that you don't use certain functionality,
then feel free to tell py2exe/modulefinder that you don't want
particular modules.  However you need to be very certain :-)

Roger 




From kbk at shore.net  Wed Aug 25 00:03:32 2004
From: kbk at shore.net (Kurt B. Kaiser)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:03:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Weekly Python Bug/Patch Summary
Message-ID: <200408250403.i7P3x0F8020069@h006008a7bda6.ne.client2.attbi.com>


Patch / Bug Summary
___________________

Patches :  259 open ( -5) /  2573 closed (+17) /  2832 total (+12)
Bugs    :  745 open ( +0) /  4405 closed (+21) /  5150 total (+21)
RFE     :  150 open ( +1) /   130 closed ( +0) /   280 total ( +1)

New / Reopened Patches
______________________

Patch for bug 933795. term.h and curses on Solaris  (2004-08-19)
       http://python.org/sf/1012280  opened by  Ariel Arjona

PEP 292 implementation  (2004-08-22)
       http://python.org/sf/1014055  opened by  Barry A. Warsaw

Rational.py various bugfixes  (2004-08-19)
       http://python.org/sf/1012468  opened by  Russell Blau

cStringIO's truncate doesn't  (2004-08-20)
CLOSED http://python.org/sf/1012740  opened by  Dima Dorfman

Fix for duplicate attributes in generated HTML  (2004-08-20)
       http://python.org/sf/1013055  opened by  Richard Brodie

Cleanup Peepholer Output  (2004-08-22)
CLOSED http://python.org/sf/1013667  opened by  Raymond Hettinger

Implementation for PEP 318 using syntax J2  (2004-08-22)
       http://python.org/sf/1013835  opened by  Michael

RobotFileParser.can_fetch return value  (2004-08-23)
CLOSED http://python.org/sf/1014237  opened by  George Yoshida

Expose current parse location to XMLParser  (2004-08-24)
       http://python.org/sf/1014930  opened by  Dave Cole

bug in tarfile.ExFileObject.readline  (2004-08-24)
       http://python.org/sf/1014992  opened by  GaryD

Improve markup and punctuation in libsocket.tex  (2004-08-24)
       http://python.org/sf/1015012  opened by  Dima Dorfman

Docs claim that coerce can return None  (2004-08-24)
       http://python.org/sf/1015021  opened by  Dima Dorfman

Patches Closed
______________

baseinteger: abstract superclass for int and long  (2004-08-11)
       http://python.org/sf/1007068  closed by  nnorwitz

Improve error reporting when Python opens source code  (2004-08-19)
       http://python.org/sf/1011822  closed by  loewis

Add Py_InitializeEx to allow embedding without signals.  (2004-02-19)
       http://python.org/sf/900727  closed by  loewis

implementation of Text.dump method  (2002-04-19)
       http://python.org/sf/546244  closed by  loewis

Return new string for single subclass joins (Bug #1001011)  (2004-08-11)
       http://python.org/sf/1007087  closed by  rhettinger

cStringIO's truncate doesn't  (2004-08-20)
       http://python.org/sf/1012740  closed by  tim_one

Bad URL encoding in SimpleHTTPServer directory listing  (2004-08-18)
       http://python.org/sf/1011123  closed by  jlgijsbers

doctest: add a special (dedented) marker for blank lines  (2004-04-11)
       http://python.org/sf/933238  closed by  jlgijsbers

incorrect end-of-message handling in mailbox.BabylMailbox  (2004-01-20)
       http://python.org/sf/880621  closed by  jlgijsbers

(bug 1005936) textunderscore python.sty fix  (2004-08-14)
       http://python.org/sf/1009373  closed by  nnorwitz

Cleanup Peepholer Output  (2004-08-22)
       http://python.org/sf/1013667  closed by  rhettinger

Non-ascii in non-unicode __credits__ in Lib/pydoc.py  (2004-08-15)
       http://python.org/sf/1009389  closed by  loewis

Allow pydoc to work with XP Themes (.manifest file)  (2004-07-25)
       http://python.org/sf/997284  closed by  loewis

LC_CTYPE locale and strings  (2004-07-26)
       http://python.org/sf/997768  closed by  loewis

Installation database patch  (2002-05-29)
       http://python.org/sf/562100  closed by  akuchling

RobotFileParser.can_fetch return value  (2004-08-23)
       http://python.org/sf/1014237  closed by  loewis

thread Module Breaks PyGILState_Ensure()  (2004-08-17)
       http://python.org/sf/1010677  closed by  mhammond

New / Reopened Bugs
___________________

dictionary referencing error  (2004-08-19)
CLOSED http://python.org/sf/1012249  opened by  AMIT Consulting LLC

weakref.WeakValueDictionary should override .has_key()  (2004-08-19)
CLOSED http://python.org/sf/1012315  opened by  Myers Carpenter

ctrl-left/-right works incorectly with diacritics  (2004-08-19)
       http://python.org/sf/1012435  opened by  Krzysztof Wilkosz

Can't pipe input to a python program  (2004-08-20)
CLOSED http://python.org/sf/1012692  opened by  Ronald L. Rivest

xmlrpclib, PEP291, "yield"  (2004-08-16)
CLOSED http://python.org/sf/1009803  reopened by  anthonybaxter

Python Tutorial 3.1.4 List example  (2004-08-20)
CLOSED http://python.org/sf/1013239  opened by  Elizibeth Thompson

Win XP DEP prevents Python call to 'C' DLL  (2004-08-21)
CLOSED http://python.org/sf/1013418  opened by  ajhewitt

xml.dom documentation omits createDocument, ...DocumentType  (2004-08-21)
       http://python.org/sf/1013525  opened by  Mike Brown

Error in Chapter 4 of Tutorial  (2004-08-22)
CLOSED http://python.org/sf/1013760  opened by  Alexey Peshehonov

No documentation for PyFunction_* (C-Api)  (2004-08-22)
       http://python.org/sf/1013800  opened by  Henning G?nther

tarfile.open with mode w|bz2  (2004-08-22)
CLOSED http://python.org/sf/1013882  opened by  Felix Wiemann

Error in representation of complex numbers  (2004-08-22)
CLOSED http://python.org/sf/1013908  opened by  Raymond Hettinger

mimetypes add_type has bogus self parameter  (2004-08-22)
       http://python.org/sf/1014022  opened by  Cliff Wells

Unspecific errors with metaclass  (2004-08-23)
       http://python.org/sf/1014215  opened by  Thomas Heller

optparse: parser.remove_option("-h") inconsistency  (2004-08-23)
       http://python.org/sf/1014230  opened by  strop

Missing urllib.urlretrieve docs  (2004-08-23)
       http://python.org/sf/1014761  opened by  David Abrahams

Misc/NEWS no valid reStructuredText  (2004-08-24)
       http://python.org/sf/1014770  opened by  Felix Wiemann

Misc/NEWS.help  (2004-08-24)
       http://python.org/sf/1014775  opened by  Felix Wiemann

"article id" in description of NNTP objects  (2004-08-24)
       http://python.org/sf/1015140  opened by  Felix Wiemann

cgi.FieldStorage.__len__ eventually throws TypeError  (2004-08-24)
       http://python.org/sf/1015249  opened by  Andreas Ames

Create cgi.FieldStorage._get_new_instance method as factory  (2004-08-24)
       http://python.org/sf/1015254  opened by  Andreas Ames

readline broken  (2004-08-24)
CLOSED http://python.org/sf/1015517  opened by  Walter D?rwald

Bugs Closed
___________

dictionary referencing error  (2004-08-19)
       http://python.org/sf/1012249  closed by  rhettinger

weakref.WeakValueDictionary should override .has_key()  (2004-08-19)
       http://python.org/sf/1012315  closed by  rhettinger

str.join([ str-subtype-instance ]) misbehaves  (2004-07-30)
       http://python.org/sf/1001011  closed by  rhettinger

compile errors on _codecs_iso2022.c  (2004-08-09)
       http://python.org/sf/1005737  closed by  perky

SGI (IRIX 6.5.24) Error building _codecs_iso2022.c  (2004-08-11)
       http://python.org/sf/1007249  closed by  perky

Warning in cjkcodecs/iso2022common.h  (2004-07-16)
       http://python.org/sf/991834  closed by  perky

test_queue fails occasionally  (2004-08-17)
       http://python.org/sf/1010777  closed by  mwh

Can't pipe input to a python program  (2004-08-20)
       http://python.org/sf/1012692  closed by  tim_one

xmlrpclib, PEP291, "yield"  (2004-08-16)
       http://python.org/sf/1009803  closed by  loewis

xmlrpclib, PEP291, "yield"  (2004-08-16)
       http://python.org/sf/1009803  closed by  loewis

logging.getLevelName returns a number  (2004-08-12)
       http://python.org/sf/1008295  closed by  vsajip

Python Tutorial 3.1.4 List example  (2004-08-21)
       http://python.org/sf/1013239  closed by  perky

optparse indents without respect to $COLUMNS  (2004-01-16)
       http://python.org/sf/878453  closed by  jlgijsbers

Win XP DEP prevents Python call to 'C' DLL  (2004-08-21)
       http://python.org/sf/1013418  closed by  loewis

Index entries with "_" are wrong in pdf file  (2004-08-09)
       http://python.org/sf/1005936  closed by  nnorwitz

xmlrpclib and backward compatibility  (2003-11-15)
       http://python.org/sf/842600  closed by  loewis

Error in Chapter 4 of Tutorial  (2004-08-22)
       http://python.org/sf/1013760  closed by  rhettinger

tarfile.open with mode w|bz2  (2004-08-22)
       http://python.org/sf/1013882  closed by  loewis

Error in representation of complex numbers  (2004-08-22)
       http://python.org/sf/1013908  closed by  loewis

Cmd in thread segfaults after Ctrl-C  (2004-06-06)
       http://python.org/sf/967334  closed by  mwh

2.3.4 fails build on solaris 10 - complexobject.c  (2004-06-10)
       http://python.org/sf/970334  closed by  mwh

readline broken  (2004-08-24)
       http://python.org/sf/1015517  closed by  nnorwitz

New / Reopened RFE
__________________

Standard exceptions are hostile to Unicode  (2004-08-20)
       http://python.org/sf/1012952  opened by  Marius Gedminas



From jerf at jerf.org  Fri Aug 27 12:55:28 2004
From: jerf at jerf.org (Jeremy Bowers)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:55:28 GMT
Subject: Class Friends
References: <20040827081556.657c3fac.a@c.d>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.27.12.55.20.844417@jerf.org>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 15:19:53 +0000, Sean Don wrote:

> 
> Hello!
> 
> Is it possible to make classes friends in Python? Or is it better to just stick
> to "Java style" .isThis, .getThat, .setThis style functions? 
> 
> I understand that classes are generally grouped logically into separate files
> anyway. So, this isn't always necessary. But I'm a perfectionist and was
> wondering if friendships were possible in Python.

In Python, there isn't much of an idea of "Private"; Python's philosophy
is "We're all consenting adults here." Thus, there isn't much of an idea
of "friends" either. In Java terminology, on a technical level everybody
is already friends with everybody else already. 

Ultimately, it is the human meaning of "friendship" that is more
important (classes that twiddle with other classes internals), and Python
allows you to deal with that as you see fit.

In all my years of Python programming, only once have I generated a
"friend" class in the human sense. Generally there are ways around it.

As a final note, don't use 'getThat' or 'setThis'; that's a hack around
Java's weaknesses. Look up "property" in the Python manual and use that;
it is good both for re-factoring classes and for new ones too. This is one
reason that Python "gets away with" the way it works; unless you go out of
your way to break a class's encapsulation, the class author can always
catch things like attribute access with a property.

class MyXActsStrange(object):
    def __init__(self):
        self._x = 0
    def getX(self):
        return self._x + 1
    def setX(self, val):
        self._x = val
    x = property(getX, setX)

>>> a = MyXActsStrange()
>>> a.x
1
>>> a.x = 4 
>>> a.x
5


Very useful.

(Some people would use "self.__x", to get the psuedo-private name munging
invoked. My call is if the "security" isn't perfect there isn't much
point, as the language is already depending on the client programmer to
behave. I think Java can get good security but C++ is already effectively
as permissive as Python, it just makes the hoops harder.)


From ods at strana.ru  Mon Aug 23 12:13:09 2004
From: ods at strana.ru (Denis S. Otkidach)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:13:09 +0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
Message-ID: <20040823201309.2669937a.ods@strana.ru>

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:35:53 GMT
Roel Schroeven <rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm> wrote:

> Roel Schroeven wrote:
> 
> > I spotted some errors in your list, added new entries, and made a 
> > histogram: http://roelschroeven.net/pythonages/

I'm 29

-- 
Denis S. Otkidach
http://www.python.ru/      [ru]


From gmcclure at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 04:16:18 2004
From: gmcclure at gmail.com (Greg McClure)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 01:16:18 -0700
Subject: Quixote vs. Preppy
References: <1779534897.20040805105519@MailBlocks.com>
	<mailman.1209.1091724920.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <9a4845b3.0408060016.25339856@posting.google.com>

Don't forget Webware (http://www.webwareforpython.org)! It interfaces
nicely with Cheetah (http://www.cheetahtemplate.org) and has an
application server/servlet model of development which, for anyone
experienced with Tomcat for example, is very easy to learn and get
going with.

I've developed two sites with this software and I'm pretty much in
love, although since I haven't tried Quixote yet I can't
compare/contrast them. Webware has an active mailing list though and
the community is very responsive and helpful.

Peace,
GM


From tchur at optushome.com.au  Fri Aug 20 16:47:49 2004
From: tchur at optushome.com.au (Tim Churches)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 06:47:49 +1000
Subject: I know SAS (sort of)...now, PYTHON
In-Reply-To: <cg5jsg$ka2@odak26.prod.google.com>
References: <cg5jsg$ka2@odak26.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <1093034869.1237.11.camel@emilio>

On Sat, 2004-08-21 at 05:36, Alex Pavluck wrote:
> Hello.  I use SAS on a daily basis and it has peaked my interest in
> learning other programming languages.  Are there any good
> websites/online books that can help someone go from zero knowledge of
> python and programming to beginner level through exercises?

I have been using SAS for 13 years, and although I also used Visual
Basic and Perl, I still thought that SAS had something to offer as a
data manipulation and programming environment. But then I was introduced
to Python about 4 years ago, and it was a road to Damascus experience -
the scales fell from my eyes and I realised just how sprawling and laden
with historical baggage the SAS suite really is - a  real dog's
breakfast (mostly effective, but incredibly inelegant). And then there
is the annual cost of licenses...

Anyway, there are now many good books on Python, and several free
tutorials and more extensive introductions (such as "Dive into Python"),
but as a starting place, I very strongly recommend "Learning Python" by
Lutz and Ascher, published by O"Reilly. My son calls it "the rat book".
See http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/lpython2/

-- 

Tim C

PGP/GnuPG Key 1024D/EAF993D0 available from keyservers everywhere
or at http://members.optushome.com.au/tchur/pubkey.asc
Key fingerprint = 8C22 BF76 33BA B3B5 1D5B  EB37 7891 46A9 EAF9 93D0





From sdeibel at wingware.com  Tue Aug 17 22:12:13 2004
From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 22:12:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Python Success Stories Update
Message-ID: <mailman.1871.1092839197.5135.python-announce-list@python.org>

Hi,

I just wanted to let y'all know that the Python Success Stories
collection has nine new additions:

http://www.pythonology.com/success

These 28 stories include significant testimonials that can make
it easier to sell technical decision-makers (i.e., your boss)
on Python.

Whether you're building an online singles community or an air 
traffic control system -- be sure to check it out!

Also In Print
-------------

Twelve stories, including the new ones, have been included in the 
second O'Reilly Python Success Stories booklet, which recently went 
into print and should be available at O'Reilly exhibit booths at 
conferences.

Thanks,

Stephan Deibel

--
Wingware
Wing IDE for Python
Advancing Software Development

www.wingware.com


From bokr at oz.net  Wed Aug 25 16:26:26 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 20:26:26 GMT
Subject: Radical: listing decorators compared to atexit function registration
Message-ID: <cgisli$jqh$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

Still looking for a unifying concept ;-)

It struck me that

    @deco1
    @deco2
    def foo():pass

uses '@' to register at-next-name-binding processing in a way similar to atexit's
registering of processing to happen at ('@' ;-) exit.

IOW, it is setting up processing for an event (synchronous in this case)
that is expected to happen in the future.

I like that meaning of '@' -- i.e., @event_handler_defining_expression seems like
a nice general reading of an 'at'-symbol.

In the case of function decoration, the event is implicitly the completion of the
execution of next-in-code-sequence function definition, intercepting
just before name-binding. And a chain of interceptions works in order.

In the case of current decorators, deco1 etc must be expressions resulting in
functions. By default, the functions are hooked into a chain of at-next-name-binding
processing that gets triggered by the def name binding. This is the current use case.

However, the broader concept is for @expression to cause registration of a generalized
event handler into an event recognition/handling mechanism. The concept can be embellished
with one-shot vs repeated and with or without timeout, multiple events, etc., but leave
that for later, so long as the door is not closed to it.

If @expression evaluating to a function defaults to a certain meaning, it should be
possible to spell it out using a compatible general and full spelling. OTTOMH ISTM
that the natural alternative to returning a function or ordinary callable would be
to return an object that the infrastructure would recognize and register into the
appropriate alternative event-handling place.

One way would be if the object were marked in a similar way that an object gets
marked as a descriptor (which happens with a __get__ method etc). Perhaps __handler__ ?
Thus you could write a class with a __handler__ method and instantiate it with info
re what event to recognize and other particulars. Then decorator syntax spelled out
might look (in concept, this is not a design spec ;-) like:

    @my_next_binding_handler(func=deco1, event='before_next_local_binding')
    @my_next_binding_handler(func=deco2, event='before_next_local_binding')
    def foo():pass

Note that you could potentially define object attribute access events and have another way
to define properties, if you passed info to your handler constructor specifying name and
namespace. Obviously the infrastructure would have to grow some event-handling and 
relevant registration etc magic.

This is essentially a push to start thinking about bringing generalized event-driven
programming nicely into python. I'm suggesting that decorators can be seen as special
one-shot event handlers for a local binding event. A GUI is obviously a source of many
user action events, and a way to say @mouseover('this','that') to instantiate and
register some code might be neat. Ditto for i/o related events. This brings in thread
issues though, and event queuing etc. But that can be deferred. We can just deal with
synchronous events for the time being. Hm... recoverable exceptions anyone ;-)

OTOH, this may all just be a symptom of attempted personal stress escape ;-)

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Mon Aug  2 11:45:52 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 02 Aug 2004 17:45:52 +0200
Subject: __coerce__ vs. new-style classes
Message-ID: <HBF.20040802t150@bombur.uio.no>

Why do new-style classes disable __coerce__()?
It seems cumbersome to have to write a whole set of methods (e.g.
__add__, __radd__, etc.) to get the same effect.  Is there some way to
automatically generate those methods, or are we simply not supposed to
do coercion for some reason?

-- 
Hallvard


From jack at performancedrivers.com  Wed Aug  4 12:19:42 2004
From: jack at performancedrivers.com (Jack Diederich)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 12:19:42 -0400
Subject: ANN: libgmail 0.0.7 - Gmail access via Python - Now with FTP
	Proxy!
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1130.1091629649.5135.python-announce-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1130.1091629649.5135.python-announce-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20040804161942.GA22706@performancedrivers.com>

Does anyone else keep getting CVS commit emails for libgmail?

Seriously, it is great that you are doing stuff and sharing it but
we don't need a status update every three days.  Freshmeat.net and
the libgmail mailing list are both good places to post incremental
updates.

-Jack

On Mon, Aug 02, 2004 at 12:04:41PM -0700, Follower wrote:
> libgmail -- Python binding for Google's Gmail service
>  * Demo FTP proxy enables marked Gmail message attachments to be
>    download via FTP.
> 
>  * Implemented sending & receiving of message attachments. 
> 
>  * Updated SMTP Proxy demo to handle sending attachments.
> 
>  * Added 'getMessagesByQuery' function.
> 
> Major changes since 0.0.5: (Repeated from last announcement)
> 
>  * Implemented SMTP proxy to enable Gmail to be send with a
>     standard mail client via (E)SMTP. 
> 
>  * Extended standard SMTP class to handle ESMTP EHLO & AUTH PLAIN commands.
> 
>  * Utility function '_retrieveJavascript' to retrieve current version
>    of Gmail Javascript file. (By request.)
> 
> 
> <p><a href="http://libgmail.sf.net/">libgmail 0.0.7</a> - The
> `libgmail` project is a pure Python binding to provide access to
> Google's Gmail web-mail service; includes SMTP & FTP
> proxies. (03-Aug-04)</p>
> -- 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 


From afriere at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Aug 11 02:47:16 2004
From: afriere at yahoo.co.uk (Asun Friere)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 23:47:16 -0700
Subject: Python equivalent to a C trick
References: <1d7b6d0d.0408092255.1177908e@posting.google.com>
	<cfa5vu$jg8$01$1@news.t-online.com> <41189FD5.7516D933@alcyone.com>
Message-ID: <38ec68a6.0408102247.45d79ed2@posting.google.com>

Erik Max Francis <max at alcyone.com> wrote in message news:<41189FD5.7516D933 at alcyone.com>...
> Thomas Kr?ger wrote:
> 
> > Logic_Test and True_Result or False_Result
> > 
> > Example:
> > print (num_eggs > 1) and 'eggs" or "egg"
> 
> Be very careful that the "True_Result" in your formulation actually is
> itself a Python true value, or this won't work:
> 
> 	print 'egg' + (numEggs == 1 and '' or 's')
> 
> will not work as expected.

For which reason the form (test and [true_result] or
[false_result])[0] is sometimes advocated.  This starts to look a
little too cluttered for my liking, so I tend to use it only when the
'true_result' is a variable and might be instantiated to a negative
value.


From firemoth at gmail.com  Sun Aug 15 02:31:37 2004
From: firemoth at gmail.com (Timothy Fitz)
Date: 14 Aug 2004 23:31:37 -0700
Subject: The winner of the Python Decorator Poll is...
References: <Ue-dnX0CBNhaEYfcRVn-ig@comcast.com>	<mailman.1533.1092259988.5135.python-list@python.org>	<4edc17eb.0408112052.1bbd85b3@posting.google.com>	<59e9fd3a04081122235b3d9145@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.1590.1092380271.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <972ec5bd.0408142231.7089175a@posting.google.com>

Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1590.1092380271.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:23:22 +1000, Andrew Durdin <adurdin at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Since you like the current proposal, why *didn't* you vote for it (it
> > was the first one)?
> 
> I didn't vote, because voting is a stupid way to design a language.

In general yes, but if the alternative is pick one at random (which is
where Guido was when @ was picked, or so it sounds) I think voting is
preferable.


From paolo_veronelli at yahoo.it  Wed Aug 11 15:38:48 2004
From: paolo_veronelli at yahoo.it (paolo veronelli)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 21:38:48 +0200
Subject: Rather than decorators, how about sections?
In-Reply-To: <cfdjus$qjo$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <cfdegs$5oo$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<1C74C038-EBB6-11D8-8889-000A95857E5C@eischet.com>
	<cfdjus$qjo$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <opsck16yq7dgjose@mail.yahoo.it>

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:10:53 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Stefan Eischet wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> do we really need this stuff just to say "staticmethod" and 
>> "classmethod"? How about:
>>
>> class Foo(object):
>>     def baz():
>>         print "Static Method"
>>     def bar(self):
>>         print "Method"
>>     def spam(Foo):
>>         print "Class Method"
>>
>
> I like it!  It's simple, clear, ... Why isn't this the hands-down best 
> solution? Why do we want to be more verbose than necessary?
>
> I wonder if there are people out there who've chosen something other 
> than *self* for the 1st arg (shame on them if they did! <grin>) who's 
> code this would break.  I've never understood why we didn't require that 
> it be called self in the first place --- why give them more than one way 
> to do *that*?
>
I do and I'm happy with that .Actually it took me a while to understand 
that self was just the medio man choice which I really use now only for 
the others.
I usually use capitalized names for classes and same name not capitalized 
as first argument ,after a while it became much easy for me to understand 
where I was reading in the code .... now should I say shame on you because 
you like self? Take it easy with words and have fun.
									Paolino



-- 
....lotta dura  per la verdura



From martindemello at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 25 16:25:07 2004
From: martindemello at yahoo.com (Martin DeMello)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 20:25:07 GMT
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2361.1093446779.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <DA6Xc.213557$J06.90595@pd7tw2no>

Ayose <ayose.cazorla at hispalinux.es> wrote:
> 
> If you can use python 2.3 or newer, try with [::-1]
> 
>     >>> def f(m, n):
>     ...     print (m + n)[::-1]
>     ... 
>     >>> f([1,2,3], [10,20,30])
>     [30, 20, 10, 3, 2, 1]

Thanks! Where can I look this up?

martin


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug  6 13:47:59 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 13:47:59 -0400
Subject: Killing children
In-Reply-To: <87smb0w4ln.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
References: <87smb0w4ln.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
Message-ID: <xu2dneMe0OnSWY7cRVn-hA@powergate.ca>

Laura Conrad wrote:

> I'm writing an application that has to spawn some processes and then
> kill them later.  It doesn't need to talk or listen to them while
> they're running, but there are stop and start buttons and the stop
> button should stop everything that gets started by the start button.
> 
> There are lots of ways to do this on Linux, but this project has to
> run under cygwin.  So far, the only thing I've gotten to work at all
> under cygwin is doing an 'os.system' to start the process and then
> parsing the "ps" output and using os.kill on the processes that ps
> finds.  This is unsatisfactory in a number of ways.  
> 
> I have been unable to get os.spawnl to start the processes correctly.
> I was using pexpect, which worked fine with test programs, but not
> with the actual processes that need to be spawned.  I did a little bit
> of playing with the "process" module but didn't get it working right.
> 
> Does anyone have a better idea?  

This has been successful in some cases:

if sys.platform == 'win32':
     def _kill(pid, sig):
         '''pid is actually handle, but that's what os.spawn* returns on 
Win32'''
         import win32api
         win32api.TerminateProcess(pid, 0)  # ignore sig, 0 is return 
code for process
     import os
     os.kill = _kill
     del _kill


It requires win32api, and I don't know how that all will work with
cygwin (which I don't use).  Basically it lets you use os.kill()
in a platform-independent fashion (provided you care only about
Linux and Windows NT/XP/2K ;-).

-Peter


From me at privacy.net  Fri Aug 27 14:29:55 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Richard Hanson)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:29:55 -0700
Subject: MSI Installer Problem: can't install 2.4a2 on new install of
	Win2kSP2
References: <vnipi0ldsgchqqiti1q19qtd5d70ju17p0@4ax.com>
	<412d7dcd$0$26184$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<sfsri058cggdn56usp887tcrus25sgdcsv@4ax.com>
	<412e5452$0$24835$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<p5vsi09a62l3jgvo7omks26gipml6ru524@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <92uui05l49lurff1depfmvblq8esqllcpg@4ax.com>

Thanks to the guidance from Martin and Dennis, I *think* that my
problem is finally at least fully worked around -- meaning Python
2.3.4 on a separate Win98 partition can now coexist with Python 2.4a2
on the Win2k partition. Booting into either OS and the respectively
installed Python's IDLE now works. 

But, I had to pull "C:\Python23" out of my Win98's PATH to make it
work. Don't know why that was there -- a fresh install of Python 2.3.4
on my Win98 partition now works (IDLE, anyway) without that entry in
Win98's PATH. And, I don't know why my Win2k or my Python 2.4a2 on
Win2k even cares about my Win98's PATH.

For academic purposes, there may be information below that still
suggests some strangeness (at least to me and my machine) re PATH on
Windows, or re having Python in another OS's PATH variable, or both. 

So, if you have the time and are interested, read on:

Martin v. L?wis wrote:

>Richard Hanson wrote:
>> If I have a directory named "Python23" with *only* the immediate
>> contents of "Lib" in it (no other files or directories nor any of
>> Lib's sub-dirs) in a separate Win98 partition, then IDLE doesn't run.
>> However, if I rename or move that dir inside another dir, then IDLE
>> runs. I can move that subsetted Python23 dir back and forth between
>> being hidden inside another dir and being in the root, without
>> rebooting, and IDLE works or not, depending on the visibility of that
>> very limited subset of the normal Python23 install directory.
>
>Could it be that you have an environment variable PYTHONHOME or
>PYTHONPATH set?

I checked that yesterday. No PYTHONHOME nor PYTHONPATH set in Win2k's
environment variables.

I checked using Two Of The Many Ways To Do The Same Thing so common
with Windows: by right-clicking on "My Computer" and then selecting
Properties | Advanced | Environment Variables, and by using System
Information. 

I found for my PATH variable:

  %SystemRoot%\system32;%SystemRoot%;%SystemRoot%\system32\WBEM

However... 

Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:

>	Check for your search path definition(os.environ["PATH"]). It
>sounds like the W98 partition is being found before the full install
>directory, and as a result, it fails to locate some files...

Following Dennis's lead and using Python 2.4a2 (with C:\Python23
hidden) to get the environment, today I got the Win2k PATH with the
Win98 PATH concatenated to it (I subsequently rebooted into Win98 on
C: and confirmed its PATH):


E:\\WINNT\\system32;E:\\WINNT;E:\\WINNT\\system32\\WBEM;C:\\WINLICKS;
  C:\\WINLICKS\\COMMAND;C:\\Python23\\;C:\\PROGRA~1\\GRISOFT\\AVG6;
  C:\\PROGRA~1\\COMMON~1\\AUTODE~1

("WINLICKS" was what I originally named the Windows dir in the Win98
partition a while ago when I first installed it -- at the time, I may
have been a bit frustrated with Windows. [Or, is being frustrated with
Windows somewhat of a tautology? <wink>])

Also today, I tried getting my Win2k environment using Yet Another Way
-- from a Win2k console by typing in "path" -- and got the same
two-OSes-concatenated, system-variables-expanded version shown
immediately above.

Martin v. L?wis wrote:

>As for the console being mostly broken: what precisely does that mean?
>If you run cmd.exe, and start c:\python24\python.exe, what happens?
>What happens if you add a -v option to python.exe?

I also tried that, yesterday, after reading a post from Tim Peters to
John J. Lee (thread started with <1xhtg1xm.fsf at pobox.com>).

In case it has any academic value, here's the full output (with
C:\Python23 visible in the root of C) from yesterday:

|     E:\Python24>python -v
|     # installing zipimport hook
|     import zipimport # builtin
|     # installed zipimport hook
|     # C:\Python23\Lib\site.pyc matches C:\Python23\Lib\site.py
|     import site # precompiled from C:\Python23\Lib\site.pyc
|     # C:\Python23\Lib\os.pyc matches C:\Python23\Lib\os.py
|     import os # precompiled from C:\Python23\Lib\os.pyc
|     import nt # builtin
|     # C:\Python23\Lib\ntpath.pyc matches C:\Python23\Lib\ntpath.py
|     import ntpath # precompiled from C:\Python23\Lib\ntpath.pyc
|     # C:\Python23\Lib\stat.pyc matches C:\Python23\Lib\stat.py
|     import stat # precompiled from C:\Python23\Lib\stat.pyc
|     # C:\Python23\Lib\UserDict.pyc matches C:\Python23\Lib\UserDict.py
|     import UserDict # precompiled from C:\Python23\Lib\UserDict.pyc
|     # C:\Python23\Lib\copy_reg.pyc matches C:\Python23\Lib\copy_reg.py
|     import copy_reg # precompiled from C:\Python23\Lib\copy_reg.pyc
|     # C:\Python23\Lib\types.pyc matches C:\Python23\Lib\types.py
|     import types # precompiled from C:\Python23\Lib\types.pyc
|     # C:\Python23\Lib\locale.pyc matches C:\Python23\Lib\locale.py
|     import locale # precompiled from C:\Python23\Lib\locale.pyc
|     import _locale # builtin
|     # C:\Python23\Lib\codecs.pyc matches C:\Python23\Lib\codecs.py
|     import codecs # precompiled from C:\Python23\Lib\codecs.pyc
|     import _codecs # builtin
|     import encodings # directory C:\Python23\Lib\encodings
|     # C:\Python23\Lib\encodings\__init__.pyc matches C:\Python23\Lib\encodings\__ini
|     t__.py
|     import encodings # precompiled from C:\Python23\Lib\encodings\__init__.pyc
|     # C:\Python23\Lib\re.pyc matches C:\Python23\Lib\re.py
|     import re # precompiled from C:\Python23\Lib\re.pyc
|     # C:\Python23\Lib\sre.pyc matches C:\Python23\Lib\sre.py
|     import sre # precompiled from C:\Python23\Lib\sre.pyc
|     # C:\Python23\Lib\sre_compile.pyc matches C:\Python23\Lib\sre_compile.py
|     import sre_compile # precompiled from C:\Python23\Lib\sre_compile.pyc
|     import _sre # builtin
|     # C:\Python23\Lib\sre_constants.pyc matches C:\Python23\Lib\sre_constants.py
|     import sre_constants # precompiled from C:\Python23\Lib\sre_constants.pyc
|     'import site' failed; traceback:
|     Traceback (most recent call last):
|       File "C:\Python23\Lib\site.py", line 304, in ?
|         import locale, codecs
|       File "C:\Python23\Lib\codecs.py", line 692, in ?
|         strict_errors = lookup_error("strict")
|       File "C:\Python23\Lib\encodings\__init__.py", line 30, in ?
|         import codecs, exceptions, re
|       File "C:\Python23\Lib\re.py", line 5, in ?
|         from sre import *
|       File "C:\Python23\Lib\sre.py", line 97, in ?
|         import sre_compile
|       File "C:\Python23\Lib\sre_compile.py", line 17, in ?
|         assert _sre.MAGIC == MAGIC, "SRE module mismatch"
|     AssertionError: SRE module mismatch
|     # C:\Python23\Lib\warnings.pyc matches C:\Python23\Lib\warnings.py
|     import warnings # precompiled from C:\Python23\Lib\warnings.pyc
|     # C:\Python23\Lib\re.pyc matches C:\Python23\Lib\re.py
|     import re # precompiled from C:\Python23\Lib\re.pyc
|     # C:\Python23\Lib\sre.pyc matches C:\Python23\Lib\sre.py
|     import sre # precompiled from C:\Python23\Lib\sre.pyc
|     # C:\Python23\Lib\sre_compile.pyc matches C:\Python23\Lib\sre_compile.py
|     import sre_compile # precompiled from C:\Python23\Lib\sre_compile.pyc
|     Python 2.4a2 (#55, Aug  5 2004, 11:42:43) [MSC v.1310 32 bit (Intel)] on win32
|     Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.

All those references to "C:\Python23" were what originally led me to
focus on the Python 2.3 install in the Win98 partition.

---

So, while I don't understand why having a separate OS on a different
partition affected 2.4a2 on Win2k as above (remembering that 2.3.4 on
Win2k worked fine with that configuration), I'm quite happy that I can
now get back to using Python rather than trying to get my laptop
"assembled." :-)

In any event, a big hearty thanks once again -- very nice, helpful
folks here!

what's-a-good-Linux-distro-for-a-laptop-with-touchscreen-'ly y'rs,
Richard

-- 
email works if unmunged:
sick<PERI0D>ole<P0INT>fart<PIE_DEC0_SYNTAX>newsguy<MARK>com


From meldron at meldron.org  Wed Aug 25 05:53:06 2004
From: meldron at meldron.org (Bernd Kaiser)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:53:06 +0200
Subject: urllib hangs
In-Reply-To: <a6fdfd6b.0408230902.2afc0e08@posting.google.com>
References: <a6fdfd6b.0408230902.2afc0e08@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <2p35phFg2vehU1@uni-berlin.de>

I also would use a few Threads, they will speed up your script.

Jay Donnell wrote:
> This is a basic version of my code
> 
> for url in urls:
>     fp = urllib.urlopen(url)
>     lines = fp.readlines()
> 
>     #print lines
>     for line in lines:
>         #print line
>         if(reUrl.search(line)):
>             print 'found'
>             return 1
>         else:
>             print 'not found'
>             return 0
> 
> this hangs occasionally for some certain url's. If I do a ctrl-c
> (linux) it will move on to the next url. How can I get this to timeout
> and move on to the next url.


From vincent at visualtrans.de  Fri Aug  6 08:06:35 2004
From: vincent at visualtrans.de (vincent wehren)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 14:06:35 +0200
Subject: [Python-Dev] RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1196.1091715567.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cev7mj$lt6$1@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
	<4113429a$0$26993$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
Message-ID: <cevs3k$386$1@news5.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>


"Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:4113429a$0$26993$9b622d9e at news.freenet.de...
> Vincent Wehren wrote:
> > What surprised me a little is that on Win XP I could install 2.4a2 as a
user
> > with restricted rights over a previously administrator-installed
> > for-all-users 2.4a1 standard-paths-used installation without
> > warnings/problems - well, except for the obvious errors writing to the
> > registry (and yes, I tried it intentionally ;). I am not entirely on
board
> > with the MSI's capabilities, but is there a way to tell the user (before
the
> > registry errors happen), that he/she may have insufficient rights to
> > install?
>
> I'm not quite sure I understand what you were doing, and in what way
> this has surprised you. It seems
> - you made a per-machine installation as the administrator

True.

> - you then upgraded as a restricted user (not being asked whether this
>    is going to be per-user or per-machine)

True

>
> What *should* have happened is this:
> - MSI finds that the new installation is per user, and the old
>    installation is per-machine, so no upgrade is possible

Can't say, but I take your word for it ;)

> - the UI then tells you that the target directory already exists,
>    and wants confirmation

Yes.

> - if you proceed, it overwrites the existing files, creating a
>    per-user installation (i.e. shortcuts in your profile, registry
>    keys in HKEY_CURRENT_USER)
>
> Are you saying that somebody else has happened instead?

Well, writing a bunch of the registry keys fails. This user has no rights to
write them and is greated with several error messages as in:

"Could not write value to key
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes\.py Verify that you have
sufficient access to that key, or contact your support personnel."

.. Same for .pyw, .pyc, *.pyo etc.
.. Python.File\shell\open\command
.. Python.NoConFile\shell\open\command
.. Python.CompiledFile\shell
.. Edit with Idle

and so on. I was just wondering if the installer should be aware of the
rights situation and not try to write those keys in the first place.

--
Vincent

> If not, in what way did that surprise you?
>
> Regards,
> Martin




From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Aug 27 15:42:53 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 21:42:53 +0200
Subject: MSI Installer Problem: can't install 2.4a2 on new install of
 Win2kSP2
In-Reply-To: <92uui05l49lurff1depfmvblq8esqllcpg@4ax.com>
References: <vnipi0ldsgchqqiti1q19qtd5d70ju17p0@4ax.com>
	<412d7dcd$0$26184$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<sfsri058cggdn56usp887tcrus25sgdcsv@4ax.com>
	<412e5452$0$24835$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<p5vsi09a62l3jgvo7omks26gipml6ru524@4ax.com>
	<92uui05l49lurff1depfmvblq8esqllcpg@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <412f8ebd$0$13030$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

Richard Hanson wrote:
> For academic purposes, there may be information below that still
> suggests some strangeness (at least to me and my machine) re PATH on
> Windows, or re having Python in another OS's PATH variable, or both. 

I'm not quite sure why you have the Win98 path in W2k, but it may be
that W2k also executes certain autoexec things.

> So, while I don't understand why having a separate OS on a different
> partition affected 2.4a2 on Win2k as above (remembering that 2.3.4 on
> Win2k worked fine with that configuration), I'm quite happy that I can
> now get back to using Python rather than trying to get my laptop
> "assembled." :-)

That might be a subtle bug. Python tries to find out its own executable
path name, in order to find the location to the Python installation. It
considers two alternatives
a) argv[0] contains a \. If so, python.exe was fully qualified, so we
    know the path.
b) if there is no \, python.exe must be on the PATH. So we look there,
    and find one in C:\python23, and believe this is us. This logic is
    flawed, as we should *first* look into the current directory (I
    think)

 From then on, everything fails: we load the 2.3 library, which has a
different sre version. So regular expressions don't work, and that
causes pretty much everything to break.

What surprises me, though, that this algorithm is *only* executed
if GetModuleFileName fails, which should not happen in your case...

Regards,
Martin


From peufeu at free.fr  Thu Aug  5 11:52:51 2004
From: peufeu at free.fr (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Pierre-Fr=E9d=E9ric_Caillaud?=)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 17:52:51 +0200
Subject: checking whether a var is empty or not
References: <cec880$8ct$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu> <opsbxubr1g1v4ijd@musicbox>
	<slrnch0vat.rhb.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
	<ap%Pc.22247$%r.245331@nasal.pacific.net.au>
	<slrnch23e1.rhb.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
Message-ID: <opsb9nqde91v4ijd@musicbox>


import inspect
def isset(v):
     return v in globals() or v in inspect.currentframe().f_back.f_locals

	Why would you want that ?

	Use this PHP emulator :

	from (all installed modules...) import *

	If you want to emulate PHP, you should only use global variables, and  
don't forget to copy those into all the modules you import (and of course,  
update globals with all variables coming from all modules).


From donnal at donnal.net  Mon Aug 23 12:53:27 2004
From: donnal at donnal.net (Donnal Walter)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:53:27 -0500
Subject: telnet 'connection reset by peer'
Message-ID: <cgd7e8$qh3$1@sea.gmane.org>

On Windows XP I am able to connect to a remote telnet server from the 
command prompt using:

telnet nnn.nnn.nnn.nnn 23

where nnn.nnn.nnn.nnn is the IP address of the host. But using 
telnetlib, this code returns the traceback that follows:

import telnetlib
host = 'nnn.nnn.nnn.nnn'
tn = telnetlib.Telnet(host, 23)
tn.read_until("Enter device name?")


Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\mindwrapper\test\telnet.py", line 
4, in ?
     tn.read_until("Enter device name?")
   File "C:\Python23\lib\telnetlib.py", line 316, in read_until
     self.fill_rawq()
   File "C:\Python23\lib\telnetlib.py", line 521, in fill_rawq
     buf = self.sock.recv(50)
socket.error: (10054, 'Connection reset by peer')

Is there some parameter that I need to set in order to connect using the 
telnetlib client? Thanks.

Donnal Walter
Arkansas Children's Hospital




From DeadWisdom at wisefool.net  Thu Aug 26 11:41:25 2004
From: DeadWisdom at wisefool.net (DeadWisdom)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 08:41:25 -0700
Subject: object.*
Message-ID: <a1d2c9b4.0408260741.3a474bd8@posting.google.com>

I think there should be an ability in python to write something like
"object.*" which should return a dictionary object containing all the
members and their values for the given object.  Maybe ".*" could be
treated as an operator. ::shrug::

Perhaps the functionality already exists in some other syntax; if so
please splain.


From jepler at unpythonic.net  Fri Aug 20 22:34:15 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:34:15 -0500
Subject: Feature Request: Current time in traceback
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.20.11.02.31.742207@thomas-guettler.de>
References: <pan.2004.08.20.11.02.31.742207@thomas-guettler.de>
Message-ID: <20040821023415.GA1458@unpythonic.net>

In your application, you can use a top-level exception handler or
set sys.excepthook to override the default way that exceptions are
displayed.  One example of this (which formats exceptions as HTML) is
the standard module "cgitb".

Jeff
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From dagan at portalen.no  Mon Aug  9 14:04:17 2004
From: dagan at portalen.no (Dag Hansteen)
Date: Mon,  9 Aug 2004 20:04:17 +0200
Subject: Question
Message-ID: <200408092004.AA1750663468@portalen.no>

>>> s = "2+2"
>>> answer = int(str(s))
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<pyshell#64>", line 1, in ?
    answer = int(str(s))
ValueError: invalid literal for int(): 2+2

How do I this ? I have a string with a such expression and I want to return the answer in a variable.

Regards Dag Hansteen

(PS: sorry if I double post, dont know if I sent the other)



From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Fri Aug 13 00:36:29 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 04:36:29 GMT
Subject: PEP 318 decorators are not Decorators
References: <Xns9543CB4CF5EDFarienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.7>
Message-ID: <cdgoh09bmnir09cttkdfm06drf8lime6d2@4ax.com>

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 02:56:34 GMT, Arien Malec
<arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE> wrote:

>I've been following the decorator debate with some interest, and it's taken 
>me a reasonably long time to understand what is meant by a decorator. One 
>of the issues is that the Decorator pattern is more like a Unix pipe than 
>it is what PEP 318 calls a decorator. The classic decorator is run-time, 
>rather than define time, and is non-destructive to the base function. The 
>PEP 318 decorator is define time and is a destructive change to the base 
>function. For instance, the GoF book makes it clear that decorators may be 
>added or removed without affecting the underlying class.

I had first thought that the word used to describe the mechansim was
unimportant. "decorator" would come to mean, for Python, what Python
defined it to mean. 

But have concluded otherwise.  In fact using the word "decorator"
justifies the syntax, but - as you say - does not describe the impact
of that syntax in any reasonable way.

Its a bit of a con, I now think.

>
>I personally think it's confusing to reuse the "Decorator" name for 
>something that is not a classic decorator. I also agree with the many 
>comments that the proposed syntax does not make it clear that what is going 
>on is a destuctive transformation of the defined function.

Apparently in the world of declarative programming it is kosher to
make @something  mean a destructive transformation of a function
defined in its vicinity. When programming in Python. of course. And
without providing a cognative hint, or without the need to justify
itself by reference  to any other notation that ever  was. 

That precedent, of course, opens up a world of new possibilities.

Unfortunately.

Art
>
>Arien



From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Tue Aug  3 14:02:02 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 14:02:02 -0400
Subject: how to do proper subclassing?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1095.1091552353.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1095.1091552353.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408031342001.8880-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, [iso-8859-1] Jonas Koelker wrote:

> I'm new to this list (/me welcomes himself).

Welcome!

> However, I want the permutation to act like a list, in
> all those cases where I don't override the operations.
> For example, assuming permfooation is the above
> permutation [1 3 4 0 2], permfooation[1:3] should
> return [3,4]. How is this done? Do I have to actually
> implement a slice-mechanism in the permutation class?

I'm not sure exactly how your permutation class is implemented, so I can't
give you a precise answer, but in general, there are three ways to do
this, each method having benefits and drawbacks:

1) Implement your class as a subclass of list.

Using this method, your class would store its list data in itself (in
self, actually), since it is effectively a list.  The __getitem__ method
needed to implement slicing will be inherited from list, and no further
work will need to be done.  This method works best if you're only altering
the behaviour of a list slightly (e.g. transforming all items in a
particular way), but may not be well suited to objects that shouldn't 
otherwise act like lists.

2) Store your data in a list, and delegate __getitem__.

Using this method, your class would store its list data in an attribute
(say self.data).  To implement slicing, you can simply define your class's
__getitem__ method like this:

 def __getitem__(self,i):
     return self.data[i]

assuming self.data contains the list data to which you want to provide 
access.  This is the easiest method if all you want to implement is 
slicing.

3) Implement __getitem__ yourself.

You should only need to do this if the data you want to slice is not 
available in a readily slicable form (perhaps you generate it on the fly).  
Implementing __getitem__ is easy; here is a general template you can use:

 def __getitem__(self,i):
     if isinstance(i,slice):
         return self.make_a_slice_and_return_a_list(i.start,i.stop,i.step)
     else:
         return self.get_an_item_at_index(i)

__getitem__ is passed either a slice object (in the case of slicing) or 
an integer (in the case of indexing).  The start, stop, and step 
attributes of the slice object return what you'd expect, or None if they 
weren't specified.  The method slice.indices(length) will compute "actual" 
slice indices for a sequence of the given length in the case of missing, 
negative, or out-of-bounds indices, returning a tuple (start, stop, 
stride).

Hope this helps.



From cybermanxu at hotmail.com  Wed Aug  4 15:42:34 2004
From: cybermanxu at hotmail.com (Jinming Xu)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 14:42:34 -0500
Subject: How to force a single number to be a tuple
Message-ID: <BAY9-F41KOlAQ7Zg6CT0003beb2@hotmail.com>

Graeme,

I found that too. I asked really a stupid question. Shame on me! :(

Thanks anyway,

Jinming


>From: "Graeme Longman" <graeme.longman at tangozebra.com>
>To: "Jinming Xu" <cybermanxu at hotmail.com>, <python-list at python.org>
>Subject: RE: How to force a single number to be a tuple
>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 17:29:18 +0100
>
>Hi,
>
>Couldn't you say:
>
> >>> y = 2,
> >>> y
>(2,)
>
>Cheers.
>Graeme
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: python-list-bounces+graeme.longman=tangozebra.com at python.org
> > [mailto:python-list-bounces+graeme.longman=tangozebra.com at python.org]On
> > Behalf Of Jinming Xu
> > Sent: 04 August 2004 17:26
> > To: python-list at python.org
> > Subject: How to force a single number to be a tuple
> >
> >
> > Hi Folks,
> >
> > I have a number sequence, which is put into a tuple like this:
> >
> > y=2, 3.0, 4.5
> >
> > I can manipulate the sequence as a tuple when it has more than 1
> > number. But
> > when the sequence has only 1 number, like
> >
> > y=2
> >
> > I have trouble to manipulate it as a tuple.  I guess there must
> > be a way to
> > forece a single number to be a tuple. Could anyone please tell me that?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Jinming
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar ? get it now!
> > http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
> >
> > --
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The
> > service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive
> > anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit:
> > http://www.star.net.uk
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> > ---
> > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.732 / Virus Database: 486 - Release Date: 29/07/2004
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>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The
>service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive
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From mwh at python.net  Wed Aug 11 07:01:54 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:01:54 GMT
Subject: Executing bytecode from a string.
References: <pan.2004.08.11.07.18.32.690395@proteus-tech.com>
Message-ID: <m3brhios4d.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

"Benjamin Scherrey" <scherrey at proteus-tech.com> writes:

> I'm curious as to how difficult it would be to take a string that contains
> compiled bytecode, load it into memory, give it a function name then
> execute that function. 

Fairly hard: you'd need to guess or work out all the other parameters
to new.code such as argcount, stacksize,...

> I'm thinking of a database that contains compiled objects that I can
> load and execute. 

You'd likely be much better off storing marshalled code objects than
raw code strings.  Whether that would suffice is hard to say from your
description, but it's probably a good start.

Or just Python source...

> I'm also curious as to what level of grainularity this would work -
> module, class, class method, function?  

I think "it depends".

> Anyone tried to do this before? 

Almost certainly :-)

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Ignoring the rules in the FAQ: 1" slice in spleen and prevention 
    of immediate medical care.
                                              -- Mark C. Langston, asr


From xavier.combelle at free.fr  Sun Aug  8 08:57:12 2004
From: xavier.combelle at free.fr (Xavier Combelle)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 14:57:12 +0200
Subject: decorators vs GIL
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1350.1091953009.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>	<mailman.1345.1091924284.5135.python-list@python.org>	<8YudnZoJ4NdLEYjcRVn-jA@speakeasy.net>	<0bidnfbR2_PZOIjcRVn-pA@giganews.com>
	<mailman.1350.1091953009.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <41162234$0$32536$626a14ce@news.free.fr>


>As far as "fixing" the GIL - well, no-one on Python-Dev has obviously
>found it to be a problem for them. I certainly can't recall a time in the
>last 5 years where the GIL has been a problem in any application I've
>written (including a number of heavily threaded applications). Coding
>threaded applications in Python does require _knowledge_ of the GIL,
>true, but there's nearly always ways to get around it.
>  
>
For information is there some internet resources to understand what 
exactly the GIL is about ?



From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Mon Aug  9 21:06:11 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 18:06:11 -0700
Subject: Compiling disutil modules on Windows
References: <7947683945.20040807214448@variosoft.com>
	<mailman.1420.1092095903.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ukjlu1-ehl.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

Geoff Caplan wrote:
> I now have mingw working, but some of the packages I want to try are
> only distributed in disutils format. I can't figure out a way to get
> these packages to use the mingw compiler. Is this possible, or do I
> really have to shell out $$ to microsoft to get these installed?

python setup.py build --compiler=mingw32 bdist_wininst

Roger 




From oziko at fusiondementes.com  Mon Aug 16 14:08:32 2004
From: oziko at fusiondementes.com (oziko)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:08:32 -0500
Subject: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xf3'
Message-ID: <4120F820.4000703@fusiondementes.com>

Hi, I get a piece of code of ogg123.py from the pyogg site, this is the 
code:
*******************************
ogg_file = sys.argv[1]

vorbis_file=ogg.vorbis.VorbisFile(ogg_file)
comentarios = vorbis_file.comment()
		

recognized_comments = ('Artist', 'Album', 'Title', 'Version',
			'Organization', 'Genre', 'Description',
			'Date', 'Location', 'Copyright', 'Vendor')

comment_dict = {}
for com in recognized_comments:
	comment_dict[string.upper(com)] = '%s: %%s' % com

known_keys = comment_dict.keys()

for key, val in comentarios.items():
	if key in known_keys:
		print comment_dict[key] % val
	else:
		continue
		#print "Unknown comment: %s" % val
****************************

When I run int I get this error:

Album: Trapos
Vendor: Xiph.Org libVorbis I 20020717
Artist: Attaque 77
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "./ogg2sql.py", line 51, in ?
     print comment_dict[key] % val
UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xf3' in 
position 15: ordinal not in range(128)


The title of the song has especial carateres Title= Perfecci?n, it is in 
espanish. I put at the begining og the scrpit the encodign coment

#!/usr/bin/env python
# -*- coding: UTF8 -*-


As you see the script get the comment og a vorbis file, and all the 
comments are in unicode.

So I do not understan why the script uses an ascii codec, Am I not using 
Unicode coding?


From krajicek at ics.muni.cz  Sun Aug  1 13:04:05 2004
From: krajicek at ics.muni.cz (Ondrej Krajicek)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 17:04:05 GMT
Subject: Python/ADSI Problem
Message-ID: <I1s22w.J4r@news.muni.cz>

Hello,

I have problem with the following code:

rootdse = ldap.OpenDSObject(ROOTDSE_URL, USER_NAME, PASSWORD, opts)
nc = rootdse.Get("defaultNamingContext")
uri = "LDAP://%s/%s" % (SERVER_NAME, nc)
dc = ldap.OpenDSObject(uri, USER_NAME, PASSWORD, opts)
cnUsers = dc.GetObject("top", "Users") ## <-- exception is thrown here

The last line throws an exception:
com_error: (-2147352567, 'Exception occurred.', (0, None, None, None, 0, 
-2147016654), None)

I've tried several variants, such as:
GetObject(None, "Users"),
GetObject("", "CN=Users"),
GetObject(u"", u"CN=Users")

with no success. Similar code in C++ works perfectly, i.e. the binding 
URLs, flags, etc. seem to be correct.

Anything obvious I've missed?

Thanks,

Ondra

-- 
____________________________\\--//_________________________
Ondrej Krajicek              \\//      krajicek at ics.muni.cz
Institute of Computer Science,||Masaryk University Brno, CR
_____________________________//\\__________________________


From dm-info at 163.com  Sat Aug 28 01:32:26 2004
From: dm-info at 163.com (tocer)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 22:32:26 -0700
Subject: ANN:a Vim script make Vim suport calltips of python
Message-ID: <6aa4af73.0408272132.3f8b6a05@posting.google.com>

ADDRESS:
http://vim.sourceforge.net/scripts/script.php?script_id=1074

INTRO:
  In a new bottow window, display help doc strings of word under the cursor
by scanning the modules in the current file as you press key.

It requier Vim compiled with "+python" and MUST set iskeyword+=.

It work well in my box in Win2000 and Vim6.3. If it work in other  platform
or other version of Vim, let me know.

I think it better than the call tips of idle and pywin:) if you like it ,let
me know.


From davidf at sjsoft.com  Tue Aug 31 16:47:04 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 22:47:04 +0200
Subject: compile to exe?
In-Reply-To: <tji3w0iau390.dlg@news.individual.net>
References: <tji3w0iau390.dlg@news.individual.net>
Message-ID: <ch2o48$orq$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

Active8 wrote:
> I just moticed that wxGlade 3.1.1 comes with a windows installer and
> runs as an exe with a python22.dll and a bunch of .pyd files (pythod
> dlls?) and wxGlade 3.4 is all python files.
> 
> I might be getting in deep here, but how do you turn .py files into
> .pyds and .exes?
> 
> Any links or references to which doc and section would be
> appreciated.

There are a number of ways, py2exe is the simplest to start off with on 
Windows:
   http://py2exe.sf.net/

David


From tchur at optushome.com.au  Sun Aug  8 00:16:26 2004
From: tchur at optushome.com.au (Tim Churches)
Date: 08 Aug 2004 14:16:26 +1000
Subject: session management
In-Reply-To: <4115A5C6.6010206@mail.usyd.edu.au>
References: <4115A5C6.6010206@mail.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <1091938586.1253.14.camel@emilio>

On Sun, 2004-08-08 at 14:02, Ajay Brar wrote:

> and how secure would such a mechanism be? the user enters their username 
> and password and i compare the hash of both the username and password 
> with values stored in an encrypted file. if the comparison is successful 
> i create the session. is this a reasonably secure scheme? does anyone 
> see any problems with this

OWASP is a good place to start reading: http://www.owasp.org

We also found this paper very useful:
http://pdos.lcs.mit.edu/cookies/pubs/webauth.html

-- 

Tim C

PGP/GnuPG Key 1024D/EAF993D0 available from keyservers everywhere
or at http://members.optushome.com.au/tchur/pubkey.asc
Key fingerprint = 8C22 BF76 33BA B3B5 1D5B  EB37 7891 46A9 EAF9 93D0





From wweston at att.net  Sun Aug 15 02:45:51 2004
From: wweston at att.net (wes weston)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 06:45:51 GMT
Subject: random / lists
In-Reply-To: <cfl5d1$f8p$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>
References: <cfl5d1$f8p$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <zEDTc.210024$OB3.89400@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>

Malcolm Clift wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I have this so far.
> 
> 
> import random
> 
> things = xrange(int(raw_input("choose no of things (1-8)? ")))
> 
> state = [None,None]
> 
> l = []
> 
> for x in things:
>     tmp = random.choice('abcd')
>     print state
>     while tmp in state[0:2]:
>         tmp = random.choice('abcd')
>     print "choice ",x+1," is ", tmp
>     l.append(tmp)
> 
> state[x%2] = tmp
> 
> print 1
> 
> Could someone help in showing me how to control it like this? That if 'a'
> is choosen it can only be followed by say b or d, if 'd' is choosen it can
> only be followed by c or b etc... I can see how to do this after the list
> has been generated with if statements, but that is impractical. As it is
> at the moment it stop two of the same letters being given one after
> another or the same letter occurring with only one space interviening.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Calvin
> 
> 

Calvin,
    Could you give a clear statement of what you want to
do. No code; just a description of what you want to do.
wes



From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Aug 13 22:56:12 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (simo)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 19:56:12 -0700
Subject: Flython?
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
	<411cbcb1$0$3894$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>
	<W9qdnWhf8u7MI4HcRVn-ow@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <30260531.0408131856.5ef3b0d3@posting.google.com>

There's a few libraries for making SVG files in PHP, so there may be
Python versions too, but if you want ActionScript then I guess you're
determined to go with Flash instead.....


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Tue Aug  3 09:47:02 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 08:47:02 -0500
Subject: intersection of 2 strings
References: <e3dbc412.0408030437.bc62176@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <GNydnWo2bLzOCpLcRVn-iA@comcast.com>

At the risk of doing your homework,
one way would be:

list_1=string_1.split('_')
list_2=string_2.split('_')
#
# The next line uses some "magic" to eliminate duplicates"
#
list_3=[x for x in list_1 if x in list_2 if x not in
locals()['_[1]'].__self__]
string_3="_".join(list_3)
print string_3

If you have Python 2.3 you also could use sets() module
and it would be even easier.

HTH,
Larry Bates


"Antoine Logean" <al at biolinux.ch> wrote in message
news:e3dbc412.0408030437.bc62176 at posting.google.com...
> Hi,
>
> What is the easiest way to get the intersection of two strings in
> python (a kind a "and" operator) ?
> ex:
>
> string_1 =
"the_car_of_my_fried_is_bigger_as_mine_but_my_girlfriend_is_more_beautifull"
>
> string_2 =
> "my_girlfriend_is_more_beautifull_and_has_blue_eyes"
>
> and the intersection :
> string_1 "and" string_2 = "my_girlfriend_is_more_beautifull"
>
> thanks for your help
>
> Antoine




From skip at pobox.com  Wed Aug 11 11:02:20 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:02:20 -0500
Subject: Integers have docstring for int()
In-Reply-To: <59e9fd3a04081105087366db98@mail.gmail.com>
References: <59e9fd3a04081105087366db98@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16666.13564.527138.202013@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Andrew> I accidentally discovered that all the basic types in Python
    Andrew> have docstrings that describe the functions to create them. For
    Andrew> integers, you get:
    ...

    Andrew> This seems a little unexpected to me; is there any particular
    Andrew> reason for this behaviour?

Why should this be unexpected?  If you execute

    print int.__doc__

you get its docstring.  Since the __doc__ attribute is attached to the class
it will be found when the search starts at an instance of the class as well.

Skip


From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz  Tue Aug 24 01:08:09 2004
From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:08:09 +1200
Subject: Fwd: Overriding logical operators?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2124.1093125927.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E1C@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>	<59e9fd3a04082101105c50558c@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.2124.1093125927.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2p00psFfado2U1@uni-berlin.de>

Andrew Durdin wrote:
> As far as I can see, the compiler changes would be limited to
> compiling "a and b" to bytecode equivalent to
> 
>     a.__logand__(lambda b: b)

That approach would work, but it would slow down the
evaluation of all logical expressions a lot, requiring
an extra Python function call to get the second operand,
even in the common case where no overriding is going on.
So I doubt it would be accepted.

-- 
Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept,
University of Canterbury,	
Christchurch, New Zealand
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg



From listserver at tdw.net  Mon Aug  2 11:31:01 2004
From: listserver at tdw.net (Tim Williams)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:31:01 +0100
Subject: Trimming a string
References: <410B7277.3000609@mail.usyd.edu.au> <410E48BD.9060202@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <00c401c478a5$b780e030$ccbefea9@twilliams>

>I have a string that is 7 characters and represents file mode in UNIX/LINUX
from rpm:

>0100755

>I don't care about the 0100 portion, I am only interested in the file
>permissions portion which is 755.  How can I get three characters from the
>string starting at the right?  ( -OR- strip 4 characters from the left? )



>>> str = "0100755"
>>> str1 = str[4:]
>>> print str1
755
>>> str2 = str[-3:]
>>> print str2
755
>>> 


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 28 12:55:23 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 18:55:23 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<tyf3c28ps1t.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
	<1ry8k0d2az.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87acwgvy51.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<2pb36dFibuj3U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<41309d32$0$65611$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<1gj8pg5.1e6z0kiprvfxuN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<87acwfutq4.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
Message-ID: <1gj8s7h.1hb85h219vserbN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Isaac To <iketo2 at netscape.net> wrote:

> >>>>> "Alex" == Alex Martelli <aleaxit at yahoo.com> writes:
> 
>     Alex> list(a, b, c) instead of [a, b, c] would not be horribly
>     Alex> heavy syntax, I think.
> 
> On the other hand, [b*b for b in c] is too sweet to lose as well. :)

But list(b*b for b in c) is essentially the same thing, and already in
Python 2.4 it works just fine.


Alex


From fred at acme.com  Sat Aug 21 00:21:27 2004
From: fred at acme.com (Fred)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 06:21:27 +0200
Subject: [newbie] Strange behavior of the re module
Message-ID: <2ejdi01btug5iskb4ipjpj7eaprd8i7vgm@4ax.com>

Hi,

	While parsing through a bunch of HTML pages using the latest
ActivePython, I experienced something funny using the re module. I
extracted the part that generates the errors (I'm just trying to
substitute once item with another in a string):

--------------------------------
import re

#NOK : doesn't like a single, ending backslash
#stuff = "\colortbl\red0\green0\"
# => SyntaxError: EOL while scanning single-quoted string

#NOK : doesn't like gn0? :-)
stuff="\colortbl\red0\gn0"

# => traceback (most recent call last):
#  File "C:\test.py", line 10, in ?
#    template = re.sub('BLA', stuff, template)
#  File "G:\Python23\lib\sre.py", line 143, in sub
#    return _compile(pattern, 0).sub(repl, string, count)
#  File "G:\Python23\lib\sre.py", line 257, in _subx
#    template = _compile_repl(template, pattern)
#  File "G:\Python23\lib\sre.py", line 244, in _compile_repl
#    raise error, v # invalid expression
#sre_constants.error: bad group name

#OK....
stuff="\colortbl\red0\n0"

template = "BLA"

template = re.sub('BLA', stuff, template)
--------------------------------

=> It appears that the re module isn't very friendly with backslashes,
at least on the Windows platform. Does someone know why, and what I
could do, since I can't rewrite the source HTML documents that contain
backslashes.

Thank you
Fred.


From gandalf at geochemsource.com  Tue Aug 31 09:28:54 2004
From: gandalf at geochemsource.com (Gandalf)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 15:28:54 +0200
Subject: has_method (solution found)
In-Reply-To: <41347BC1.5020407@geochemsource.com>
References: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C78AD@escpl.tcp.com.ar>
	<41347BC1.5020407@geochemsource.com>
Message-ID: <41347D16.1060508@geochemsource.com>


Somebody sent me a private e-mail.
It must be common for such silly questions that would just spam the 
list. :-)
I'll write down the final solution anyway.


def getmethod(name):
    methodList = [e for e in dir(self) if callable(getattr(self, e))]
    if name in methodList:
       return getattr(self,name)
    else:
       return None

Thanks for all.

   Laci 2.0




From DrColombes at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  6 14:18:40 2004
From: DrColombes at yahoo.com (Dr. Colombes)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 11:18:40 -0700
Subject: Plotting histograms, scatter plots in Python
Message-ID: <d1f3d1d3.0408061018.137b600f@posting.google.com>

What is the easiest way to generate some plots and graphs in Python ?

Specifically interested in simple histograms and scatter plots with
circles and regression lines.

Thanks for your suggestions.


From Ian.Sparks at etrials.com  Tue Aug 31 15:25:27 2004
From: Ian.Sparks at etrials.com (Ian Sparks)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 15:25:27 -0400
Subject: Splitting a list
Message-ID: <41A1CBC76FDECC42B67946519C6677A901915309@pippin.int.etrials.com>

> Elaine Jackson wrote...
> def indices(x,y):
>     if y in x:
>         i = x.index(y)
>         j = i+1
>         return [i]+[z+j for z in indices(x[j:],y)]
>     return []
> 
> def listSplit(x,y):
>     z = [-1] + indices(x,y) + [len(x)]
>     return [x[z[i]+1:z[i+1]] for i in range(len(z)-1)]
> 

Thanks Elaine but so far I like Jeff Eplers version the best :

    def split(it, elem):
        l = []
        for i in it:
            if i == elem:
                yield l
                l = []
            else:
                l.append(i)
        yield l

>>> l = [1,2,3,-1,4,5,-1,8,9]
>>> list(split(l, -1))
[[1, 2, 3], [4, 5], [8, 9]]


From n/a  Mon Aug 16 18:46:04 2004
From: n/a (ADE)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:46:04 -0700
Subject: Get Printer Information
Message-ID: <10i2e9rg0c1rgf8@corp.supernews.com>

I have three printers that are printing a lot of material each day (Epson
Printers)

I would like to be able to after I hit the Print Button and Before the Print
Preview have a Python Tkinter Window appear and Display Information about
the Print Job for review before printing

These Printers have this feature but do not display enough Information

How Could I do this (Please Point Me in The Right Direction Rather than tell
me how as I would like to learn)

Cheers

Andrew




From wjdandreta at att.net  Mon Aug  2 23:23:17 2004
From: wjdandreta at att.net (Bill Dandreta)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 03:23:17 GMT
Subject: Starkiller?
In-Reply-To: <278de0e.0408020648.6d187aff@posting.google.com>
References: <278de0e.0408020648.6d187aff@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <FyDPc.375637$Gx4.227384@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>

Neuruss wrote:
> Does anyone have news about Starkiller?

Here's the Starkiller website:

http://web.mit.edu/msalib/www/urop/

It says hopefully it will be released by October.

Bill


From balaji at email.arizona.edu  Fri Aug 13 19:15:36 2004
From: balaji at email.arizona.edu (Balaji)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 16:15:36 -0700
Subject: Templates SWIG
Message-ID: <494182a9.0408131515.6079290e@posting.google.com>

Can any one help me with this.

I have an c++ header file which describes a method given below.

void setRows(const vector<string> &rowNames, const vector<double>
&lhs,const vector<double> &rhs);


How I'm supposed to write this template in a interface file.

So that when I pass (['a','b','c'],[0,0,0],[1,2,3]) in python it
accepts it.

Thanx in advance

Balaji


From john at grulic.org.ar  Mon Aug  2 09:23:53 2004
From: john at grulic.org.ar (John Lenton)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 10:23:53 -0300
Subject: PyGTK overload
In-Reply-To: <20040731091225.GA1365@mirk.lan>
References: <20040731091225.GA1365@mirk.lan>
Message-ID: <20040802132353.GB3648@grulic.org.ar>

On Sat, Jul 31, 2004 at 11:12:25AM +0200, Egbert Bouwman wrote:
> As a newby to PyGTK I already have produced some gui's I like,
> but I have difficulties in finding out what method or other instrument
> I need for doing various things.
> 
> I have not yet found the tutorial or otherwise that explains concepts
> like setting (relative) sizes, setting or manipulating focus, 
> setting colors, etc.
> 
> Also when I think I need a method with a specific word it its name,
> and I cannot find it, there are two (not necessarily exclusive) 
> possibilities:
> - I have to go higher up the ancestry
> - I look for the wrong word
> 
> Is there an other way than just going on and become familiar with it ?

have you tried, e.g., 'help gtk.Window' from the interpreter, or
'pydoc gtk.Window' from the commandline?

-- 
John Lenton (john at grulic.org.ar) -- Random fortune:
Your sister swims out to meet troop ships.
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From russblau at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 26 15:57:22 2004
From: russblau at hotmail.com (Russell Blau)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:57:22 -0400
Subject: Newbie question on dictionary!!!
References: <494182a9.0408261150.a4c767f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <2p6tl1Fhcld6U1@uni-berlin.de>

"Balaji" <balaji at email.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:494182a9.0408261150.a4c767f at posting.google.com...
> Hello everybody...
>
> I want to ask a simple question.
>
> Suppose I have an list say g=['a','b','c','d']
>
> and I have an dictionary say k={'b':20,'a':10}
>
> Now I want to sort this dictionary on the basis of the list and if it
> doesnt find any of the element in the list then I wud like to replace
> it with zero..
>
> so I would like to modify k into {'a':10,'b':20,'c':0,'d':0}
>
> I have tried all the built in associated with dict and lists but was
> not able to come up with an solution...

You can't sort a dictionary.  By definition, the keys of a dictionary are
not accessed in any particular order.  See footnote 3 in
http://www.python.org/doc/current/lib/typesmapping.html

You could turn your dictionary into a list with the desired qualities:

result = [(item, k.setdefault(item, 0)) for item in g]

which will have the side-effect of creating the new keys you wanted in k,
although not in sorted order.

-- 
I don't actually read my hotmail account, but you can replace hotmail with
excite if you really want to reach me.




From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sat Aug  7 06:47:08 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 20:47:08 +1000
Subject: Decorator syntax
In-Reply-To: <2njp58F1jj1dU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <mailman.1173.1091670172.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<38ednYT1NLz1P4zcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
	<JEiQc.16955$_25.574@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408050856390.31290-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu>
	<2njp58F1jj1dU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408070347ce7f358@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 16:28:11 +0600, Yawar Amin <yawar.amin at gmail.com> wrote:
> How about
> 
> def foo(a, b, c):
>      foo.accepts = (int, int, list)
>      foo.author = 'Chris King'

How would you express foo=classmethod(foo) in this syntax? Far better to have
one flexible tool in the toolbox than a host of little, less functional tools.


From max at alcyone.com  Sun Aug 22 22:57:38 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 19:57:38 -0700
Subject: Has anyone implemented BASIC in Python?
References: <2oo13eFcj548U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <41295D22.8702D583@alcyone.com>

Leif K-Brooks wrote:

> Has anyone ever tried implementing a simple unstructured BASIC dialect
> in Python? I'm getting interested in language implementation, and
> looking at a reasonably simple example like that could be pretty
> interesting.

On a whim, I implemented a Python BASIC interpreter which supported all
statements in primitive BASIC, but got bored before I implemented all
the standard operators in expressions.

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ Procrastination is the thief of time.
    -- Edward Young


From me at privacy.net  Sun Aug  8 07:50:36 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Dan Sommers)
Date: 08 Aug 2004 07:50:36 -0400
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar, but for what exactly?
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
	<mailman.1352.1091953503.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m2u0vdj1bn.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>

On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 18:24:58 +1000,
Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:

> In many cases, these new features actually lead to smaller, simpler
> code. I challenge _anyone_ to tell me that
>   apply(func, args, kwargs) 
> is better than 
>   func(*args, **kwargs)

Okay, I will.  The old way is better than the new way.

Explicit is better than implicit, after all.

Given your second example, is func the name of a function or an object
that references a function?  Can I grep my source code to find a
function named func?  (Okay, I'll find the variable named func, so at
least I'll have some clue as to what's going on.)  Is there a "from
module import func" statement in sight?  What happens when I look up
"func" in the Python documentation to see if it's a built in name?

C did the same thing recently.

Old C:  (*f)( argument );

New C:  f( argument );

With the old syntax, I knew immediately that f was a pointer to a
function and that the function to which it pointed was being called
indirectly.  With the new one, I have to track down a definition or
declaration of f to see that.  Yes, this used to be much more important
than it is now.  Perhaps my years of assembly language applications in
extremely tight situations and are showing through.

Yes, I know that Python functions are first class objects and should be
treated as such.  Yes, I know that Python is not C.  But with function
application being built right into the syntax of the language (i.e., an
identifyer followed by a parenthesized argument list), I would like to
see a visual difference between calling a named function vs. calling a
function indirectly through some sort of reference.  Yes, I also know
that in most cases "it's obvious from context," but with the old way, it
was obvious without any context and evident to the simplest of automated
tools.

That all said, when I use the new syntax (okay, you got me, I do use the
new syntax on occasion), I always leave a comment nearby to explain
what's going on.  I agree:  the *code* is smaller and arguably simpler,
but the *program* and the *software* are not.

Regards,
Dan

-- 
Dan Sommers
<http://www.tombstonezero.net/dan/>
Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.


From nzanella at cs.mun.ca  Fri Aug 20 14:11:08 2004
From: nzanella at cs.mun.ca (Neil Zanella)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 11:11:08 -0700
Subject: classes are objects... so how can we custom print them: we need a
	classmethod syntax
Message-ID: <b68d2f19.0408201011.7b5eab21@posting.google.com>

Hello,

In Python, classes are objects. But there is no way to custom print a class
object. This would require some syntax such as the one commented out below:
With the current "foo = classmethod(foo)" mechanism custom printing for
class objects is not possible.

#!/usr/bin/python

class Foo:
  def __str__(self):
    return "foo"
  #def classmethod __str__(cls):
  #  return "pythons bite"

foo = Foo()
s = "hello %s!" % foo # custom text here
print s

print Foo # no custom text here possible it seems, unless we call
          # a staticmethod such as Foo.printMe()

Regards,

Neil


From jaydonnell at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 18 21:02:33 2004
From: jaydonnell at yahoo.com (Jay Donnell)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 18:02:33 -0700
Subject: can tarfile maintain directory structure?
References: <a6fdfd6b.0408171508.65d670d0@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1838.1092794836.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<pan.2004.08.18.09.01.48.36081@gustaebel.de>
	<a6fdfd6b.0408181017.3d4f9820@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <a6fdfd6b.0408181600.62fd6117@posting.google.com>

> > import tarfile
> > 
> > tar = tarfile.open(filename, "w:gz")
> > tar.add(directory)
> > tar.close()

This works perfectly on linux, but it wasn't working for me on windows
yesterday. I'll try it again the next time I'm on windows.


From me at privacy.net  Wed Aug 25 14:05:53 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Richard Hanson)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:05:53 -0700
Subject: MSI Installer Problem: can't install 2.4a2 on new install of
	Win2kSP2
Message-ID: <vnipi0ldsgchqqiti1q19qtd5d70ju17p0@4ax.com>

Over the last few days, I reinstalled Win2kSP2 to a spare harddrive I
had just swapped into my Fujitsu LifeBook P1120 (long story <wink>).
Subsequently, I DL'ed the newest Python alpha (2.4a2), and when trying
to install it, I immediately got this error:

  This installation package cannot be installed by the
  Windows Installer service. You must install a
  Windows service pack that contains a newer version
  of the Windows Installer service.

(Python 2.4a2 had been working on the LifeBook P1120 before the crash
and subsequent reinstall.)

I immediately tried installing Python 2.4a2 on my older, HP laptop,
and that went fine.

I then went back to the Python alpha page and DL'ed the ~1.8MB file
linked from MS's site. After running the new DL from MS, the Python
MSI installer seemed to run.

However, now Idle wouldn't run, although the Python command line
(console) worked. I tried running Idle using Windows Explorer from
inside my Python installation at:  

  E:\Python24\Lib\idlelib\idle.pyw (and idle.py)

but those didn't work, either. (E:\ is my Win2k partition and it's a
FAT32 partition.)

I then checked the new 2.4a2 install on the older HP laptop, and there
Idle worked -- from the menu shortcuts, and from launching the
idle.pyw file in Windows Explorer. 

(I note that the HP laptop already had Python23 on it. The HP has
*almost* the same OS: Win2kSP3 -- not a fresh install -- and is using
NTFS for its Win2k partition.)

I also note that the *.pyc files were not created by the installer on
the Fujitsu LifeBook P1120 but were on the HP Omnibook 900B (as may be
surmised).

Back on the P1120, I used the MSI installer to "repair" the broken
install twice, used it again to completely remove Python, rebooted
<wink>, and then use the MSI installer one more time to reinstall.
Still no go.

Am I overlooking something simple...?

Thanks for any help anyone can offer.

(I'll try to followup as this gets solved -- I've reinstalled onto an
old harddrive, so I may crash again... :-) )

I'll-keep-at-it-and-try-DL'ing-2.3.4-tonight'ly y'rs
Richard

-- 
email works if unmunged:
sick<PERI0D>ole<P0INT>fart<PIE_DEC0_SYNTAX>newsguy<MARK>com


From soofern at msn.com  Sat Aug  7 01:11:18 2004
From: soofern at msn.com (Chong Soo Fern)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 14:11:18 +0900
Subject: HELP on module
Message-ID: <BAY3-F4vIPNTAbAWFsw00006ec0@hotmail.com>

Hi,

I am currently a fourth year Uni student who is working on a Thesis that 
required me to use python language to develop a webpage that user to query 
on. I am so new to python and struggling so hard to learn and apply it. I 
wonder if any body out there can help me a helping hand.

As attached is the details of my thesis requirement. I am currently reading 
through a book "Learning Python" and looking through some useful tutorials. 
I am actually searching for modules that can link postgreSQL and python 
together. Please give me some advice which at least help me to start up the 
program, cause I'm really lost. I wonder if the CGI tutorial on the python 
website :http://www.python.org/doc/lib/module-cgi.html, worked for my case?

Operating System: Linux
Programming Lang: Python
Database : PostgreSQL

Your kind attention is greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Regards,
Chong Soo Fern

_________________________________________________________________
Protect your inbox from harmful viruses with new ninemsn Premium. Go to   
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From maxm at mxm.dk  Wed Aug 18 07:34:13 2004
From: maxm at mxm.dk (Max M)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 13:34:13 +0200
Subject: case insensitive comparison operator ?
In-Reply-To: <41233060$0$198$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>
References: <41233060$0$198$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>
Message-ID: <41233ecb$0$207$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>

Will McGugan wrote:

> What is the best way to do a simple case insensitive comparison in Python?
> 
> As far as I can tell, the only option is to do str1.lowercase() == 
> str2.lowercase() (or uppercase). But that strikes me as quite verbose 
> for such a common operation, and possibly inneficient since it would 
> create and destroy 2 tempory objects. Perhaps there should be a 
> dedicated function in the string object, or (+1) an operator?


How else could it be done?

You could wrap it in a function, and reuse the code if you want to. That 
way you can imagine that it never happens ;-)

def cic(x,y);
     "Case insensitive compare"
     return x.lower() == y.lower()

But you cannot really do it any more efficient.

Forget your worries. It's probably just a case of premature optimisation.

Naturally there are special cases where you must do it more efficiently. 
But they would probably need to be solved based on the specific problem.

regards Max M


From ben at benlast.com  Wed Aug 18 08:48:03 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 13:48:03 +0100
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <cfvi4r$bn7$1@news.tue.nl>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPKEDFCEAA.ben@benlast.com>

Age 39 (though if I allowed for rounding it'd go up to 40!)
ben


______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
______________________________________________________________________


From beliavsky at 127.0.0.1  Mon Aug 16 20:50:47 2004
From: beliavsky at 127.0.0.1 (beliavsky@aol.com)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 19:50:47 -0500
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<RGwTc.37687$js3.13758840@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<m34qn2n2du.fsf@g2ctech.com> <41214271_1@127.0.0.1>
	<roy-70FF06.19425116082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <41215667$1_1@127.0.0.1>


Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
>In article <41214271_1 at 127.0.0.1>,
> "beliavsky at aol.com" <beliavsky at 127.0.0.1:7501> wrote:
>
>> Jorge Godoy <godoy at ieee.org> wrote:
>> 
>> >Just an attempt and trying to keep it like your code. 
>> 
>> Thanks. My code did not correctly illustrate breaking out of more than
one
>> level of loop. How would the following code be translated to Python?
>
>Ugh.  This is a truly ugly scenario.  You've got three nested loops, 
>with each inner loop having a break out of both itself and the 
>immediately containing loop.  Does this correspond to some real-world 
>algorithm, or is it just a diabolical scenario invented for the example?

Ok, here is something short but more realistic and IMO not "ugly".

You may want to exit a nested loop when testing if a condition involving
several variables is met, such as searching for a zero of a multivariate
function. 

In Python you can print i,j,k and exit() when m == 0, but in a larger program
you may want more control.

program xnest_loop
! find a Pythagorean triple
n = 5
ido: do i=1,n
   do j=1,n
      ij = i**2 + j**2
      do k=1,n
         m = ij - k**2
         if (m == 0) exit ido
      end do
   end do
end do ido
if (m == 0) then
   print*,i,j,k
else
   print*,"no triple"
end if
end program xnest_loop

There is a thread "Labeled loop break/continue" in comp.std.c about adding
similar functionality to C. Fortran has had a big head start over most other
languages, but they may catch up eventually :).

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&frame=right&th=b90ddd6cd83f7232&seekm=lnr7qds9r6.fsf%40nuthaus.mib.org#link1



----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---


From npat at efault.net  Mon Aug 16 15:25:33 2004
From: npat at efault.net (Nick Patavalis)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:25:33 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <mailman.1698.1092616261.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnci22hc.h3l.npat@gray.efault.net>

On 2004-08-16, Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy) <tdelaney at avaya.com> wrote:
> Nick Patavalis wrote:
>
>> On 2004-08-13, kosh <kosh at aesaeion.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I don't want my cell phone to run python, java, ruby, c# etc etc. I
>>> want it to just be a telephone and do that job well.
>>> 
>> 
>> I understand. You want a nice analog cell-phone, with a large rotary
>> dial, and very long cord. Sorry but resistors, capacitors, and diodes
>> can only go that far. For everything else you need large clusters of
>> transistors (integrated-ccircuits they are called by some) and a lot
>> of them need (God forbid!) "software".
>

>
> What I want (and can't seem to find anymore) are mobile phones that fit
> in the hand *comfortably*, have easy-to-use keypads (so the chance of
> hitting the wrong key is minimal), good reception anywhere there's any
> kind of signal, high battery life and usually good SMS support (i.e.
> intelligent look-ahead dictionary).
>

I believe this is not a discussion about cell-phones. Incidentally all
these features are hard to implement without software.

/npat



From dave at pythonapocrypha.com  Mon Aug 30 10:26:31 2004
From: dave at pythonapocrypha.com (Dave Brueck)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 08:26:31 -0600
Subject: Enumerating Network Adapters
In-Reply-To: <413257dd$0$26986$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
References: <4131b09e$0$13683$636a15ce@news.free.fr>	<cgt571$8lv$06$1@news.t-online.com>
	<413257dd$0$26986$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <41333917.4060602@pythonapocrypha.com>

Olivier Parisy wrote:
[snip]
> But actually, a previously posted message suggests a portable way to get
> the platform IPs. Citing John Abel :
> 
>  > socket.gethostbyaddr( socket.gethostname() ) will return all the
>  > details that you need to know.  For example, the output of that
>  > command on my machine is :
>  >
>  > ('hallows', [], ['101.101.101.102', '10.253.1.118'])
> 
> Are there some pitfalls I'm not aware of ?

Doesn't seem to work right on Windows, for me at least:

 >>> socket.gethostbyaddr(socket.gethostname())
('<my machine name>', [], ['169.254.0.100'])

It returned the least useful of my 3 IP addresses - my loopback adapter 
- but didn't return my LAN and wireless IPs.

-Dave


From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Sat Aug 28 22:12:55 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 22:12:55 -0400
Subject: regex into str
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408290203530.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408290203530.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <Youdnai9uZg5pqzcRVn-jQ@giganews.com>

Peter Kleiweg wrote:

> I want to use regular expressions with less typing. Like this:

Interesting example.

Send it to the Python Cookbook folks.

http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python

Istvan.


From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Fri Aug 20 16:57:55 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:57:55 -0700
Subject: just ignore Guido's "rejections" [Re: Alternative decorator
 syntax decision]
In-Reply-To: <s6adnbDz3dsMx7vcRVn-hQ@comcast.com>
References: <wRhVc.23879$Mt5.1140091@wagner.videotron.net>	<mailman.2014.1092990953.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nPlVc.23904$Mt5.1223926@wagner.videotron.net>	<2uadnbqpMuI1krvcRVn-sg@comcast.com>
	<mailman.2077.1093031462.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<s6adnbDz3dsMx7vcRVn-hQ@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <10icpd98dsjcsf2@corp.supernews.com>

Doug Holton wrote:

> Anthony Baxter wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:50:18 -0500, Doug Holton <insert at spam.here> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> We can safely ignore Guido's "rejections" when deciding upon an
>>> alternative to agree upon.  Many people felt his rejections of C1 (a
>>> longtime community favorite), E1 and other alternatives were wrong.
>>> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/048134.html
>>
>>
>> Uh, what? No, you _can't_ ignore Guido's rejections - if you really 
>> decide
>> that you must have a form he's objected to, you need a _damn_ strong
>> argument to back that up. A "longtime community favorite" doesn't mean
>> a thing - this is language design, not American Idol - that a lot of 
>> people
>> like it makes no difference.
>
>
> Um, yes.  The point is to determine what the *community* decides on, 
> and *then* present that to Guido.  You're just helpping confound this 
> second vote even more.  Some people aren't voting for what they think 
> is best, but what they think Guido hasn't "rejected".  That is 
> ridiculous. You'll end up with a syntax that nobody really ever liked 
> most, even Guido.


On the other hand, if the community decides that the only thing they 
prefer to @pie is something that Guido's already rejected... then we get 
@pie. 

I can vote for Superman for president all I want, and I can talk all my 
friends into voting for him, but even if a majority of the country votes 
for Superman, he's still not gonna be taking any inaugural oath.  
Instead of voting for an impossible fantasy, it's much more sensible to 
restrict myself to voting for people/options with *some* chance of success.

Keep in mind here, that what we're trying to do is vote for something 
for which we think we can create a convincing case that it's better than 
@pie.  And Guido is the only person for whom "convincing" is relevant.  
If he's already rejected something, it will be *extremely* difficult to 
convince him that his rejection was a mistake.  I'd rather focus my 
efforts where they're a little more likely to bear fruit.

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From gandalf at geochemsource.com  Tue Aug 31 09:25:18 2004
From: gandalf at geochemsource.com (Gandalf)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 15:25:18 +0200
Subject: has_method
In-Reply-To: <41347A12.6020203@holdenweb.com>
References: <mailman.2664.1093957984.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<41347A12.6020203@holdenweb.com>
Message-ID: <41347C3E.2090407@geochemsource.com>


> Well, one way is try/except:
>
> try:
>    a.someMethod(arg1, arg2)
> except AttributeError:
>    print "Aarrgghh!"
>
But since I have my method name in a variable, it will be this way:

methods = dir(self)
if methodname in methods:
    cmd = "self." + methodname
    method = eval(cmd)

This is what I wanted to avoid - i.e. the use of eval. There must be an 
easier and quicker way to do this.




From ben at benlast.com  Mon Aug 16 12:50:57 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:50:57 +0100
Subject: Newbie question about file input
In-Reply-To: <cfqlq1$e7h$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPCENPCDAA.ben@benlast.com>

Ah, now you're treading on holy war territory :)
ben "Two Spaces McGraw" last

> -----Original Message-----
> From: python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org
> [mailto:python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org]On Behalf Of
> Aaron Deskins
> Sent: 16 August 2004 17:02
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Re: Newbie question about file input
> 
> 
> Thanks to all for the replies. I changed it and it works fine. Now my 
> question- what is this convention on indentation? Should all 
> indentations be 4 spaces in?
> 
> Thanks again.
> 
> Peter Hansen wrote:
> 
> 
> > 
> > Small note: it would make your code more readable and thus
> > easier to comment on if you followed convention and used four
> > spaces for indentation.  Your volunteer tutors thank you! :-)
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Aaron Deskins
> Graduate Student
> Chemical Engineering
> Purdue University
> -- 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From vinay_sajip at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Aug 26 04:43:57 2004
From: vinay_sajip at yahoo.co.uk (Vinay Sajip)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 01:43:57 -0700
Subject: Capturing exceptions?
References: <mailman.2372.1093454478.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2e37dc1.0408260043.5e1f83d4@posting.google.com>

> Have a look at the logging module:
> http://docs.python.org/lib/module-logging.html. Loggers can be a bit
> complex at first to set up; read the example in the docs
> (http://docs.python.org/lib/node301.html) and go from there.

The version of logging in CVS is easier to set up. See the
"in-development" documentation at

http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/lib/minimal-example.html

Best regards,

Vinay Sajip


From miki.tebeka at zoran.com  Tue Aug 10 04:23:31 2004
From: miki.tebeka at zoran.com (Miki Tebeka)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:23:31 +0200
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
In-Reply-To: <kl1gh0l4p2ge2i0f4j67q94hn8b2tl48g2@4ax.com>
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
	<278de0e.0408090935.6d758a5d@posting.google.com>
	<i0ffh01guveqks1n854c2g4l75dbdg57rr@4ax.com>
	<30260531.0408091506.294cec8a@posting.google.com>
	<kl1gh0l4p2ge2i0f4j67q94hn8b2tl48g2@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20040810082331.GA2636@zoran.com>

Hello Fred,

> >InnoSetup is an excellant installation package program that can take
> >the output of py2exe (or whatever) and make a Setup.exe, it's not MSI
> >mind you, but is free
> 
> Yup, it's a nice app. I prefer to use NSIS because it has a scripting
> language, though.
Inno has a Pascal like scripting language which IMO is *way* easier than
NSIS assembly like language.

I recently switch from NSIS to Inno only because scripting was much easier.
The Inno setup script is about 60% of the NSIS one for the same project
with the same functionality.

Bye.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Miki Tebeka <miki.tebeka at zoran.com>
http://tebeka.spymac.net
The only difference between children and adults is the price of the toys


From ben at benlast.com  Fri Aug 20 03:13:15 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:13:15 +0100
Subject: Rita Sue and Bob too
In-Reply-To: <xoudnQKszau-w7jcRVn-hA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPCEJDCEAA.ben@benlast.com>

> From Peter Hansen
> > But, how to I find a sequence in a list of unknown size? i.e.
> this sequence
> > in list of other names and replace it with three others?
> >
> > 'Rita','Sue','Bob'
> >
> > This is almost a nightly occurrence (my posting questions), but I am
> > learning : )

This isn't necessarily the best way to do it generally, but it's an
Interesting problem to play with, so here's an Interesting solution.  Use
the string facilities that already exist to search sequences (a string is a
sequence too).  All you need to is convert the lists to strings and back:

seqToFind = ['Rita','Sue','Bob']
seqToReplace = ['A','B','C']
seqToSearch =
['Ben','Peter','Guido','Mark','David','Rita','Sue','Bob','Junk','Extra']

#joiner should of course be a substring that doesn't occur in the list
elements.
joiner = "~~"

stringToFind = string.join(seqToFind,joiner)
stringToSearch = string.join(seqToSearch,joiner)
stringToReplaceWith = string.join(seqToReplace,joiner)
resultString = stringToSearch.replace(stringToFind,stringToReplaceWith)
resultSeq = resultString.split(joiner)

That last block could also be written as:

#s ends up with the resulting list
s = seqToSearch
s =
string.join(seqToSearch,joiner).replace(string.join(seqToFind,joiner),string
.join(seqToReplace,joiner)).split(joiner)

But that's verging on the obfuscated :)

regards,
b



From mwh at python.net  Fri Aug 20 08:35:44 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:35:44 GMT
Subject: Overriding tp_getset attribute in subclasses
References: <acwsu0jy.fsf@python.net>
Message-ID: <m3u0uyj8bj.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Thomas Heller <theller at python.net> writes:

> I have a subclassable type implemented in C, which has a 'value'
> attribute implemented in the tp_getset slot.  The type is named c_long.
> The value attribute accepts and returns integers.
> 
> Now I want to derive a subclass 'BOOL' (in Python) from it, where the
> 'value' attribute should accept and return bool instances:
> 
> from ctypes import c_long
> 
> class BOOL(c_long):
>     def _get_value(self):
>         return bool(c_long.value.__get__(self))
>         # this also works:
>         # return bool(super(BOOL, self).value)
> 
>     def _set_value(self, val):
>         c_long.value.__set__(self, val)
>         # this does not work:
>         # super(BOOL, self).value = val
> 
>     value = property(_get_value, _set_value)
> 
> I had expected the commented out super() calls to also do the work, but
> at least in the _set_value method it does not work: 
> 
>   File "c:\sf\ctypes\win32\wintypes.py", line 37, in _set_value
>     super(BOOL, self).value = val
> TypeError: 'super' object has only read-only attributes (assign to .value)

A bug on SF just like this just got closed, and this text added to the
documentation:

  Note that \function{super} is implemented as part of the binding
  process for explicit dotted attribute lookups such as \samp{super(C,
  self).__getitem__(name)}.  Accordingly, \function{super} is
  undefined for implicit lookups using statements or operators such as
  \samp{super(C, self)[name]}.

So you should write 

   super(BOOL, self).__setattr__('value', val)

or similar.

> The c_long.value.__get__ and c_long.value.__set__ variants work, but
> they look strange - is there a better way?

I guess super(BOOL, BOOL).value.__set__() might work too... haven't
tried it, though.

I also note that the documentation for super() starts off with

    Return the superclass of \var{type}.

which is wrong, and that super() is documented in libfuncs.tex, which
is also wrong.  Some bug reports are coming up!

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  GAG: I think this is perfectly normal behaviour for a Vogon. ...
VOGON: That is exactly what you always say.
  GAG: Well, I think that is probably perfectly normal behaviour for a
      psychiatrist. -- The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy, Episode 9


From dave at pythonapocrypha.com  Mon Aug 30 13:26:19 2004
From: dave at pythonapocrypha.com (Dave Brueck)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 11:26:19 -0600
Subject: Size of a remote URL
In-Reply-To: <cgvn5u$p0b@odah37.prod.google.com>
References: <cgvn5u$p0b@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <4133633B.1010001@pythonapocrypha.com>

Justin wrote:

> I want to track the download of files in a progress bar.  I asume I
> need the final size to do that so I can compare it to the current size
> on disk.  Le tme know if you know anything

Yep, you're basically out of luck. You'll notice that the download 
dialog boxes on most web browsers have two "modes" - one in which they 
show a progress bar, time remaining, etc. because the file size is 
known, and another mode in which they show megabytes downloaded so far 
(plus  perhaps time elapsed or something) because the size is not known 
- the progress bar doesn't show any progress.

You'll probably have to do something similar. Too bad, huh?

-Dave



From has.temp2 at virgin.net  Sat Aug 21 12:57:07 2004
From: has.temp2 at virgin.net (has)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 09:57:07 -0700
Subject: Has anyone implemented BASIC in Python?
References: <2oo13eFcj548U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <69cbbef2.0408210857.79439c35@posting.google.com>

Leif K-Brooks <eurleif at ecritters.biz> wrote in message news:<2oo13eFcj548U1 at uni-berlin.de>...
> Has anyone ever tried implementing a simple unstructured BASIC dialect 
> in Python? I'm getting interested in language implementation, and 
> looking at a reasonably simple example like that could be pretty 
> interesting.

Dunno about BASIC, but Ian Bicking has done Logo: http://pylogo.sourceforge.net/

HTH


From eric at cs.hmc.edu  Wed Aug  4 21:15:56 2004
From: eric at cs.hmc.edu (Eric O. Angell)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 18:15:56 -0700
Subject: optparse object population
Message-ID: <20040805011555.GB15014@cs.hmc.edu>

Say I have
class Header:
    def __init__(self):
        self.foo = 0
        # ... more fields

and I have some commandline options that can specify better values for things
in the header, such as foo.  If I try the obvious (to me):
parser = optparse.OptionParser()
parser.add_option('--secret', type='string', dest='header', default=Header())
parser.add_option('--foo', type='int', dest='header.foo')
(options, args) = parser.parse_args()

when I run the program with "--foo 3", I'm sadly left with something like
this:
>>> print options
<Values at 0xdeadbeef: {'header': <Header instance at 0xdeadbeef>,
'header.foo': 3}>

So when optparse first initializes the variables to None, it's creating a
'header.foo' that has nothing to do with header=Header().  Is there a way to
coerce optparse into populating an object for me?  Yes, I could just do
something like this:
(options, args) = parser.parse_args()
header = Header()
header.foo = options.foo
# ... more population of header

but I'd rather just end up with options.header that I could then use somewhere
else.

Am I going to have any success with this, or am I just SOL?

Thanks.

-E


From dd55 at cornell.edu  Tue Aug  3 15:19:06 2004
From: dd55 at cornell.edu (Darren Dale)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 15:19:06 -0400
Subject: executing python programs as if they were on OS path (noob)
Message-ID: <ceoogb$7lm$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>

Is there a place to put python programs so I dont have to refer to the 
absolute path everytime I want to call them? For example:

if I am in /home/me and want to execute:

python /home/me/python/export.py temp.dat

what could I do so this will work:

python export.py temp.dat

Thanks,
Darren


From amajorel at teezer.fr  Mon Aug 30 21:12:55 2004
From: amajorel at teezer.fr (Andre Majorel)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 01:12:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4PGdnfsOfdDPi63cRVn-tA@speakeasy.net>
	<slrncj1745.t5q.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<41337FC9.8070902@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <slrncj7hhh.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>

On 2004-08-30, Antony Sequeira <usemyfullname at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Andre Majorel wrote:
>> On 2004-08-28, Rob Warnock <rpw3 at rpw3.org> wrote:
>> 
>>>Pascal Bourguignon  <spam at mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>>>+---------------
>>>| $ telnet xahlee.org 80;
>>>| Trying 208.186.130.4...
>>>| Connected to xahlee.org.
>>>| Escape character is '^]'.
>>>| GET / HTTP/1.1
>>>| 
>>>| HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request
>>>| Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:35:52 GMT
>>>| Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
>>>|         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>+---------------
>>>
>>>So are you complaining about the fact that his hosting provider
>>>preloaded RedHat Fedora with Apache 2.0 for him?
>> 
>> 
>> There is no shortage of Windows-based hosting companies, so why
>> didn't he go there ? Whatever your opinions, it's best to put
>> your money where your mouth is if you expect to be taken
>> seriously.
>
> Windows (MS) is not 'Unixism'?

If by unixism, you mean any operating system that has a
hierarchical filesystem and byte stream files, yes. But that
would include quite a few other non-Unix operating systems,
including Mac OS 9, Prologue and probably everything else this
side of CP/M (DOS 1.x shall be deemed to be CP/M).

-- 
Andr? Majorel <URL:http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/>
Conscience is what hurts when everything else feels so good.


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Thu Aug 19 09:37:26 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:37:26 +0200
Subject: speed
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408191528100.1138-100000@kleigh.nl>


I implemented a lexer in Pylly and compared it to the version I
had written in Flex. Processing 219062 lines took 0.9 seconds in
C (from Flex), and 5 minutes 54 second in Python (from Pylly), a
ratio of 393 to 1.

Is this normal for Python, or does Flex produce better parsers
than Pylly? I have been looking at the code produced by Flex to
see if I could translate it to Python automaticly. But it has a
lot of goto statements, and I haven't figured out how to
translate those to Python efficiently.

What are the average times used for text processing of Python
compared to C?

-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From dd at guv.ethz.ch  Sun Aug 15 17:25:35 2004
From: dd at guv.ethz.ch (=?iso-8859-15?Q?David_D=FCrrenmatt?=)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 23:25:35 +0200
Subject: Python "decompyle"
References: <opscrrsaxt5kr1pg@news.swissonline.ch>
	<mailman.1692.1092599856.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <opscslsx1p5kr1pg@news.swissonline.ch>

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:57:30 -0400, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:

> "David D?rrenmatt" <dd at guv.ethz.ch> wrote in message
> news:opscrrsaxt5kr1pg at news.swissonline.ch...
>> If I try to use decompyle (decompyle-2.3) for pyc-files < version 2.0, I
>> get an error with marshal_20 (ImportError: dynamic module does not  
>> define
>> init function (initmarshal_20)  ). marshal_20 was compiled to a so-file
>> using gcc.
>>
>> Does anybody know where this error could come from and how to solve it?
>
> Your post suggests that your build does work for .pyc files >= version  
> 2.0.
> Is this correct?  Does the doc for decompyle say it should work for  
> earlier
> versions?

Yes, it does work. And documentation says, it should.

Fact is, marshal_20 is used to read the marshaled data in the pyc files <  
2.0 (different version of marshal). And the problem doesn't really lie in  
decompyle itsself: if I try to import marshal_20 from python prompt, I get  
the error mentioned above.


Thanks,
dave


From ian at cottee.org  Sat Aug 21 05:35:17 2004
From: ian at cottee.org (Ian J Cottee)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:35:17 +0900
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <gju6i05h0lq1vgpqie5phhbpbmdmue6gr7@4ax.com>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<gju6i05h0lq1vgpqie5phhbpbmdmue6gr7@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <jjhjv1-he3.ln1@suse.zobbo.org>

37

Been using Python for three years I'd guess. Learnt it in order to try 
and understand Zope better :)

Ian


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Mon Aug  2 10:40:32 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 09:40:32 -0500
Subject: get attribute from a parent class
References: <410d9a13$1@clarion.carno.net.au>
Message-ID: <EPydnSFF2MPEz5PcRVn-hA@comcast.com>

I normally do something like this:

class A:
    def __init__(self, parent):
    self.parent=parent
    #
    # Access parent's variables by using
    # self.parent.<attribute>.
    #
    self.var = parent.var2
    t1=self.parent.var1
    t2=self.parent.var2
    return

class B:
    def __init__(self):
    self.var1=0
    self.var2=1
    self.classA=A(self)
    #
    # Access classA's attributes by using
    # self.classA.<attribute>
    #
    t1=A.var
    return

HTH,
Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.

"Steve" <steve at hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:410d9a13$1 at clarion.carno.net.au...
> Hi,
>
> I have a nested class declaration such as:
>
> class A:
> def __init__(self):
> self.var = "A's variable"
> # end def
>
> class B:
> def __init__(self):
> self.var2 = "B's variable"
> # end def
> # end class B
> # end class A
>
>
> What I want to do is to be able to get class A's 'var' variable from the
> nested class B. For example, I want to be able to do something like:
> print "I can see you %s" % a.var
>
>
> but... I don't want to make 'var' a class variable. I want it to be an
> instance variable but still be viewable by the inner class B. Is this
> possible? Any suggestions? Thanks
>
> Steve
>




From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Sat Aug 28 14:58:42 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:58:42 -0400
Subject: Zope  2.7.2 win32 - Sessions not working
In-Reply-To: <bopvi0dba5cq35btc44ir6i96345333nb8@4ax.com>
References: <bopvi0dba5cq35btc44ir6i96345333nb8@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <EridnVnBleR9SK3cRVn-jA@giganews.com>

Kyle Yancey wrote:

> I've scratched my chin over this for the longest time.  I think I'm
> going to need some help.  I'm creating a web app with zope.  It has a
> typical user login based on email and password.  A ZSql method is
> called to look up the customers unique id.  That id is then assigned

Just an observation, in your example you seem to try to go
the account page even when the login fails (no records)...

Istvan.


From b.niemann at betternet.de  Fri Aug 13 09:31:32 2004
From: b.niemann at betternet.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:31:32 +0200
Subject: Displaying images stored as binary in MySQL
In-Reply-To: <c9e6ac92.0408122047.1e3a4309@posting.google.com>
References: <c9e6ac92.0408122047.1e3a4309@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfifm8$3bn$1@online.de>

Blaktyger wrote:

> How can this be done? Images are stored in a LONGBLOB field. When I
> try to display them, it prints out the binary data as it is...
Display where? On local screen, in a webbrowser?
Assuming the first one, see post by Tom.
Assuming the second one (you're writing a cgi,mod_python... program), 
did you set the content-type in the http header correctly?


From buzzard at urubu.freeserve.co.uk  Mon Aug  2 13:04:29 2004
From: buzzard at urubu.freeserve.co.uk (Duncan Smith)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 18:04:29 +0100
Subject: Timing Difference: insert vs. append & reverse
References: <35b736b9.0408020330.53b24ed3@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cels6p$sav$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>


"John Keeling" <johnfkeeling at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:35b736b9.0408020330.53b24ed3 at posting.google.com...
> Dear all,
> I tried the test program below. My interest is to examine timing
> differences between insert vs. append & reverse for a list. My results
> on my XP Python 2.3.4 are as follows:
> time_reverse  0.889999389648
> time_insert  15.7750005722
> Over multiple runs ... the time taken to insert at the head of a list,
> vs. the time taken to append to a list and then reverse it is
> typically 16 or 17 times longer.

Shouldn't that really be insert vs. reverse & append & reverse. :-)

Duncan



From dbickett at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 19:43:54 2004
From: dbickett at gmail.com (Beeyah)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 16:43:54 -0700
Subject: Printing date a file
References: <mailman.2296.1093373725.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1d6cdae3.0408241543.343eaa2@posting.google.com>

Kory Wheatley <wheakorypersonal at yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.2296.1093373725.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> In Python how would you print the date in a file, I
> have a logging program written in python and for each
> new recorded added to the file, I would like to print
> the 
> date, something like this below:
> 
> 08/24/2004 or 08-24-2004
> 
> --
> Kory Wheatley

Read up on the time module, specifically strftime.

Daniel Bickett


From roy at panix.com  Sat Aug  7 18:40:47 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 18:40:47 -0400
Subject: Decorators
References: <%A8Rc.50217$Vm1.1280580@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <roy-1C5AF5.18404707082004@reader1.panix.com>

"Colin J. Williams" <cjw at sympatico.ca> wrote:
> It seems desirable that we choose words which are as close as possible 
> to their everyday usage.

On the other hand, it's desirable to pick words which have established 
meanings in computer science too.  The concept of a "decorator" is 
pretty well established.  The term has been used in GUI frameworks for 
10 or 15 years, and more recently has been enshrined in various pattern 
collections.


From tim.peters at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 23:48:07 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 23:48:07 -0400
Subject: What GCC version had <stdint.h> defined?
In-Reply-To: <20040827022642.GB5794@unpythonic.net>
References: <412e39d1$1@nntp0.pdx.net> <412E55A9.9070400@v.loewis.de>
	<412e70d3$1@nntp0.pdx.net> <20040827022642.GB5794@unpythonic.net>
Message-ID: <1f7befae04082620483f5c5397@mail.gmail.com>

[Jeff Epler]
...
> I'm not sure why uintptr_t or intptr_t are all that useful, since the
> spellings "unsigned *" and "int *" are going to work everywhere
> anyway.

intptr_t isn't a pointer type, it's a signed integer type wide enough
so that, for every valid void* P,

    (void*)(intptr_t)P == P

C99 refuses to guarantee that such a type exists, but Python requires
one (and int, long or "long long" is big enough on all Python
platforms to date).

Similarly for uintptr_t.


From alexander.dejanovski at laposte.net  Fri Aug  6 08:41:14 2004
From: alexander.dejanovski at laposte.net (Alexander DEJANOVSKI)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 14:41:14 +0200
Subject: [Jython-users] ANN : JyRetic EAI Server 1.0 released
Message-ID: <7086856.1092106020750.JavaMail.SYSTEM@c1879626-a>

JyRetic 1.0 is now available after for Retic 1st birthday...


The most important new feature is the integration of Tanuki Software's 
"Java Service Wrapper".
It adds to Retic great restart-on-crash features.

Other changes are :

- New : Adaptor and parameter definitions are now stored to provide, among 
others, "restart" features.
- Bug fix : Exceptions are now correctly raised on error in SQLSink.
- New : SMTP Postprocessor
- New : Jabber Postprocessor
- New : SNMP Trap Appender (logger)
- Various bug fixes and improvements I might have forgotten...


Retic Administrator 1.32 is out too (Upgrade is highly recommended)

Changes are :

- Fix : Corrected bug on WSDL parsing during WS component creation
- Fix : Corrected bug on estimated end time in execution tracking
- New : New items in execution tracking popup menu => Open adaptor 
definition, Open params definition and restart
- New : support for scheduling permanent adaptors


Have fun !!


=============================================================
WHAT IS RETIC ?

Retic is an EAI Server.
The aim is to permit applications to communicate, even if they
don't speak the same language (which means transport protocols
as well as data structures).
This is done by building adaptors. An adaptor is composed of :
         - One source
         - Several pipes (process data transformations)
         - Several sinks (destination of data)
         - Several loggers (using log4j)
         - Preprocessors (executed only once before adaptor execution - for 
example => drop/create a table through a SQL query)
         - Postprocessors (executed only once after adaptor execution - for 
example => creation of an index on a table through a SQL query)

It is written in Jython and works 100% fine with only Java 1.3+ installed 
(although some libs like cocoon.jar and poi-block.jar might only work on 
Java 1.4, delete them in case you can't upgrade) on your system (jython 2.1 
is embedded in the releases).
It provides connectivity with : JMS, HTTP, SOAP, UDDI, FTP, Xindice, JDBC, 
Jabber, SMTP and more...

=============================================================



-------------------------------------------------------
This SF.Net email is sponsored by OSTG. Have you noticed the changes on
Linux.com, ITManagersJournal and NewsForge in the past few weeks? Now,
one more big change to announce. We are now OSTG- Open Source Technology
Group. Come see the changes on the new OSTG site. www.ostg.com
_______________________________________________
Jython-users mailing list
Jython-users at lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-users



From edreamleo at charter.net  Fri Aug  6 12:08:19 2004
From: edreamleo at charter.net (Edward K. Ream)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:08:19 -0500
Subject: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was Decorator syntax)
References: <6LWdnZCpvI7Ico_cRVn-hw@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <10h7b7lfmoq0124@corp.supernews.com>

> Please reconsider the "def f() [classmethod]:" construct.

+1 from me.

Edward
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Edward K. Ream   email:  edreamleo at charter.net
Leo: Literate Editor with Outlines
Leo: http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------




From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Wed Aug 25 11:00:35 2004
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:00:35 -0700
Subject: Begginer question about py install
In-Reply-To: <cgi7bl$6m2$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>
References: <cgi7bl$6m2$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <412cab38$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

Player wrote:
> During my setup install of python, I came across an option stating...
> Compile python files to, .pyc
> I left it unchecked for now, should I of done otherwise??

Generally no biggie one way or another.  If the python directories are
only admin (or root or...) writable, this is a good idea.  Otherwise,
the first use of any module will do the compile, and all subsequent
uses will use that result.

> I assume by compiling the python files to pyc they would run that little bit
> faster??

They always get compiled, and the results of the compilation are stored
in either .pyc or .pyo files, if the write doesn't fail.  Whether the
write fails or not, the compiled code is used.

-Scott David Daniels
Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org


From sross at connectmail.carleton.ca  Thu Aug 12 07:32:14 2004
From: sross at connectmail.carleton.ca (Sean Ross)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 07:32:14 -0400
Subject: decorator with ```
References: <mailman.1555.1092303160.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <0zISc.18837$a65.823987@news20.bellglobal.com>


"Roman Suzi" <rnd at onego.ru> wrote in message
news:mailman.1555.1092303160.5135.python-list at python.org...
>
> One more crazy syntax before-def but which could be treated
> more generally:
>
> ```"""  Factory for new decorator syntaxes.
>
>          Keeps all proposals in a list and will recombine
>          them at random if called without a spec. """
>    staticmethod```
> def makeDecoratorSyntax(spec=None):
>     raise NotImplementedException()
>
> New execution block type (in addition to exec, eval and
> interactive) could be added to allow needed behaviour.
>
[snip]

I think it would be interesting if triple-back-ticks could be used to
introduce a kind of meta-scope, using 'this' to refer to the namespace being
operated upon (so you wouldn't have to spell out the object's name all the
time). For example:


def makeDecoratorSyntax(spec=None):
    ```"""  Factory for new decorator syntaxes.

         Keeps all proposals in a list and will recombine
          them at random if called without a spec.
        """
    this = staticmethod(this)      # <- transformation explicit
    this.author = "somebody"    # <- add attributes normally
    ```
    raise NotImplementedException()

This idea could be used to do transformations on classes and modules as
well.





From just at xs4all.nl  Sat Aug 28 04:16:39 2004
From: just at xs4all.nl (Just)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 10:16:39 +0200
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<1LMXc.67190$UTP.37420@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj7a9r.g7ec5a1g89rj0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<m3wtzk4562.fsf@g2ctech.com>
Message-ID: <just-18D650.10163828082004@news1.news.xs4all.nl>

In article <m3wtzk4562.fsf at g2ctech.com>, Jorge Godoy <godoy at ieee.org> 
wrote:

> It would be great to have one example with more than one file.
> 
> From the discussion I got curious and tested it here and -- since
> Python's so efficient I wasn't surprised that -- it worked. 
> 
> 
> 
> $ cat test.py
> def test():
>         print "Test from file 1"
> 
> $ cat test2.py
> def test():
>         print "Test from file 2"
> 
> 
> >>> import sys
> >>> sys.path.append('test.zip')
> >>> import test
> >>> import test2
> >>> test.test()
> Test from file 1
> >>> test2.test()
> Test from file 2
> >>>
> 
> 
> I also noticed that there was no '.pyc' created for that import, as is
> usually done for uncompressed modules.  

The zipimport module will never write to the zip archive, so for most 
efficient imports, you have to store .pyc data in there yourself. 
zipimport is mostly meant as a repackaging tool, and typical zip files 
only contain .pyc files.

Just


From faizans at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 23:17:21 2004
From: faizans at gmail.com (Fazer)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 20:17:21 -0700
Subject: Python and Weather.com
Message-ID: <6491b0ab.0408121917.5103b770@posting.google.com>

Hello,

I made a small python script that gives the current weather conditions
of a city that you give as an argument.  Here's the basic function
behind it:

I am really a beginnering when it comes to parsing XML but I just used
split to get the values I wanted.  Any ideas how I can use proper XML
parsing techniques?

Also, the weather degree is in celcius but I conver it to fahrenheit
as well. :-)

Here's the code:

# Get the weather for the city specified
def get_weather(city):
	#city = city.replace(" ", "%20")
	w = urllib.urlopen("http://xoap.weather.com/search/search?where=%s" %
city.replace(" ", "%20")).read()
	# Check if there were matches
	if not city.isalpha() or w.find("loc") < 0:
		return "No matches found for city of " + city + "!"

	# If so, use the first search result and use it
	city = w.split("</loc>", 1)[0].split("<loc")[1].split(">")[1]
	# Get location id of the first city
	locid = w.split("</loc>", 1)[0].split("<loc")[1].split('"', 2)[1]
	# Get weather readings
	weather = urllib.urlopen("http://xoap.weather.com/weather/local/%s?cc=*&prod=xoap&par=xxx&key=xxx&unit=m"
%
	locid).read()
	# Get conditions
	reading = weather.split("</t>")[0].split("<t>")[1]
	# Get temperature
	temp = weather.split("</tmp>")[0].split("<tmp>")[1]
	if "N/A" in temp:
		return "Error"
	else:
		temp = int(temp)
	
	return "Weather for %s is %s C / %s F and %s" % (city,temp,(temp *
1.8) + 32,reading)


Hope it helps anyone out there.  Please feel free to fix anything I
may have done wrong.  Comments greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Faizan S.


From p.willis at telus.net  Sun Aug 22 20:14:34 2004
From: p.willis at telus.net (pw)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 00:14:34 GMT
Subject: Parsing Python code with a Python Program
In-Reply-To: <U0aWc.46940$fz2.5801@edtnps89>
References: <U0aWc.46940$fz2.5801@edtnps89>
Message-ID: <KFaWc.46946$fz2.38763@edtnps89>

Hello,

I had my quotes wrong is all.

EXAMPLE:

exec 'print "Hello"'

OR:

s = 'print "hello"'

exec s

Thanks anyway,

Seaweed






pgw wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I would like to pass strings to a Python
> application and have them executed as though
> they were lines of code.
> 
> Is 'exec()' the function that I am looking for
> and/or is there an example of this somewhere?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Seaweed
> 



From ben at benlast.com  Mon Aug 16 12:54:17 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:54:17 +0100
Subject: Newbie question about file input
In-Reply-To: <75fc9ad504081609226eca03f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPGENPCDAA.ben@benlast.com>

> Isn't it a strange way to do a loop? Create a loop with a foo
> condition and use an if to break it?
Not necessarily.  The use of "while True" at least signals that the loop
exit condition isn't at the top.  I suspect, though, that this is a "style"
question, and as such there will be a Mighty Discussion about it...

> =====
> line=zf.readline()
> while line:
>     . . .
>     line=zf.readline()
> =====
> Isn't this code much more easy to understand?
Arguably so, but you do the "next loop statement" (in this case,
"line=zf.readline()") in two places.  Redundancy.  Chance of changing one
and forgetting to change the other.  Eww.

But:
for line in zf.readlines():

is even neater

humbly yours,
ben



From Kevin.Smith at sas.com  Tue Aug 24 14:25:54 2004
From: Kevin.Smith at sas.com (Kevin Smith)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 18:25:54 GMT
Subject: Late binding eval()?
Message-ID: <20040824142636721-0400@braeburn.themorgue.org>

I want to evaluate an expression using eval(), but I only want to supply 
the variable values "on demand."  For example, let's say that I want to 
evaluate 'x+y'.  Normally, I would create a dictionary containing 'x' 
and 'y' with their corresponding values and pass it in as the globals or 
locals.  However, in my application, I'm getting an arbitrary expression 
from the user.  I thought that I could just create a dictionary-like 
object and override __getitem__ to look up values in a database as they 
were called for, but that didn't work.

Another way of doing this would be to parse the expression and find all 
of the top-level variables.  This could be a little tricky (i.e. [x for 
x in mylist] would only require 'mylist' to be in the dictionary of 
globals/locals.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to do this?

-- 
Kevin Smith
Kevin.Smith at sas.com


From tim.hochberg at ieee.org  Wed Aug  4 10:13:24 2004
From: tim.hochberg at ieee.org (Tim Hochberg)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 07:13:24 -0700
Subject: How to dynamically access Numeric subarrays
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.04.08.39.18.743372@unet.univie.ac.at>
References: <pan.2004.08.03.11.29.43.247284@unet.univie.ac.at>
	<pan.2004.08.04.08.39.18.743372@unet.univie.ac.at>
Message-ID: <4110EF04.4030608@ieee.org>

Gaubitzer Erwin wrote:
> Hi again
> 
> 
> For example I have an array AR whose shape is 
> (2, 1, 2, 1, 100, 3).
> and I want to access
> AR[0,0,0,0,:,1]
> which results in an rank 1 array with my wanted
> numbers (more advanced I want to loop through another
> index).
> 
> I can write it manually but I can't insert this
> list of indices automatically, because the slice
> notation gives me an error when given to a python list.

I believe you want something like:

 >>> index = (0,0,0,0,slice(None,None),1)
 >>> AR[index]

The args to slice will vary depending on exactly what you want to do. 
slice can take up to three arguments for start, stop, step.

Since you seem to be delving deeply into the mysteries of numeric 
slicing, it may eventually help you to know that '...' is spelled
Ellipsis if you want to use it in a tuple as above.

Actually, the little class below will probably help you more than 
anything that I can write:

     class IndexInspector:
        def __getitem__(self, key):
             return key

Used like:

     II = IndexInspector()
     print II[0,0,0,0,:,1]
     print II[...,0,0,:,1]

prints:

     (0, 0, 0, 0, slice(None, None, None), 1)
     (Ellipsis, 0, 0, slice(None, None, None), 1)


Regards,

-tim


> 
> I tried to use take() but in my 6-dimensional array
> I wasn't able to find the right parameter combination
> to access the vector above.
> Maybe one can give me the right notation.
> 
> Thanks again
> 
> Erwin



From irmen at -NOSPAM-REMOVETHIS-xs4all.nl  Wed Aug 18 14:21:27 2004
From: irmen at -NOSPAM-REMOVETHIS-xs4all.nl (Irmen de Jong)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:21:27 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <41239e2a$0$34762$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>

I'm 30-years-and-1-month.

--Irmen


From hemanthps at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 03:53:52 2004
From: hemanthps at gmail.com (Hemanth P.S.)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 00:53:52 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <mailman.1913.1092871002.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bf0b8125.0408182353.2297aeed@posting.google.com>

32.  Program mainly in C at work(embedded systems) and have been using Python
for hobby programs since I discovered it in 2000 while reading Eric Raymond's
article on hackers.

Here, in India, until last year,there were hardly any Python books in the
stores - only tons of Java and Perl books. O'Reilly has now started bringing
out Python books priced in Indian Rupees (and somewhat affordable to students).
Still they are priced 1.5 times to 2 times the average price of a Java/Perl book;
probably someone out there is scared that Python may become popular.

--Hemanth


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Mon Aug 23 11:21:58 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:21:58 GMT
Subject: python usage
References: <c5ff5ef5.0408230346.5406b803@posting.google.com>
	<du7pt5hoqov.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>
Message-ID: <qYnWc.15022$v86.7660@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"Ville Vainio" <ville at spammers.com> wrote in message
news:du7pt5hoqov.fsf at amadeus.cc.tut.fi...
> >>>>> "Phanish" == Phanish  <phanish.tubagere at hp.com> writes:
>
>     Phanish> which inturns calls c++ client stubs. These stubs are
>     Phanish> CORBA stubs which talk to a CORBA server residing some
>     Phanish> where in the network.  I want to know as to whether it is
>     Phanish> feasible to use Python or just live with c++ for UI and
>     Phanish> stubs?
>
> One thing you may not yet know is that Python absolutely rocks for
> CORBA - seeing how elegant CORBA can be is one of the reasons I
> decided to check out Python in the first place. OmniORB is the ORB I
> would check out first if I were you...
>
<snip>

I too have had very good results using Python with CORBA.  However, beware
of interoperability issues, especially with proprietary ORBs.  CORBA is not
entirely as interoperable as one would hope.*  Do a few experiments if you
are writing Python/OmniORB clients to non-OmniORB servers, or vice versa.

* this information is a little bit old, things may have improved in the past
year...

-- Paul




From rich.teer at rite-group.com  Thu Aug 26 13:57:44 2004
From: rich.teer at rite-group.com (Rich Teer)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:57:44 GMT
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
In-Reply-To: <upt5eibse.fsf@broadpark.no>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.SOL.4.58.0408251722510.568@zaphod.rite-group.com>
	<upt5eibse.fsf@broadpark.no>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.58.0408261056530.568@zaphod.rite-group.com>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Tor Iver Wilhelmsen wrote:

> Rich Teer <rich.teer at rite-group.com> writes:
>
> > I think you're getting confused with the Blue ?yster Cult.
>
> Actually, there is also The Cult, a British band that lasted from
> 1984-1995.

I belive the Cult (She Sells Sanctuary, etc.) is another manfifestation
of the Blue ?yster Cult.

-- 
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA, author of "Solaris Systems Programming",
published in August 2004.

President,
Rite Online Inc.

Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-group.com/rich


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Wed Aug  4 18:25:16 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 17:25:16 -0500
Subject: Compiled C++ and Mysql codes run in python cgi script
References: <mailman.1151.1091647807.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <G4CdnYQ-0oTW_4zcRVn-sw@comcast.com>

mysql.sock is a normally a symbolic static link
(normally located in /tmp directory) that is used
to communicate with MySQL.  I suspect that when
you run under web interface, you don't have proper
access rights to that directory for the program
to communicate via this socket interface.

HTH,
Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.

"Yong Wang" <yong at net.tamu.edu> wrote in message
news:mailman.1151.1091647807.5135.python-list at python.org...
> Hi, All:
>      We have a network management system written in C++, MysQL, and Hp
> SNMP. It works in Solaris command line. When I wrote a similar
> python codes which call compiled C++ and mysql  codes in solaris
> command line, the comipled codes work fine in wraped python file. When
> I change the python codes to web interface in python CGI script, I got
> message
> that "Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket
> '/tmp/mysql.sock'"
> How can I fix this problem because we want to migrate solaris command
> line system to web access system ? The easiest way for me is directly
> to call
> compiled C++  and mysql codes (excutable) in python CGI scripts, then
> post the run
> results in website.
>    Thank you very much in advance and I am looking forward to your
> reply.
>
>                   Yong
>




From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 30 16:03:04 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:03:04 -0400
Subject: [IronPython] Jim Hugunin's web log.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2627.1093893089.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2627.1093893089.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <k_OdnZ2d_MVnGq7cRVn-jg@powergate.ca>

David Wilson wrote:

> It would also greatly ease the need to advocate Python in places of 
> employment, as a Microsoft adopted product, it couldn't be wrong(tm). 
> This is perhaps the first time where I have been glad to see Microsoft 
> hijack something. Even if IronPython becomes a commercial offering, I'm 
> still sold.

Will you still be "sold" if Microsoft embraces and mutates (or
whatever is the pat phrase describing their amoebic methods)
Python by introducing a half dozen incompatible new forms of
syntax and such, confusing newcomers with market mumbo jumbo
and vapourware announcements, stealing away some of the best
minds from the open source community with obscene wages, and
all those other little "couldn't be wrong(tm)" <wink> things
that they have done in the past?

This might be somewhat like what one of our (Canadian) past
Prime Ministers referred to as "sleeping with an elephant" in
reference to living next to the US.  "No matter how friendly and
even-tempered the beast, one is affected by every twitch and grunt."

(See http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Pierre_Trudeau for a possibly
accurate quote.)

-Peter


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sat Aug 21 15:15:10 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 05:15:10 +1000
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <coHVc.38439$Tr.1930638@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>	<7x3c2iw9ig.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<mailman.2016.1092991343.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<coHVc.38439$Tr.1930638@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082112151a732012@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 08:39:39 -0400, Colin J. Williams <cjw at sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > This is not an option that is going to happen. The decorators thread
> > has been discussed on python-dev for 2 1/2 years. The case for including
> > them has been decided. The original decorators (classmethod, staticmethod)
> > were introduced in Python 2.2, released late 2001. How long do you think
> > we should wait?
> > 
> Another six months won't make much difference.  The transform
> functionality is there now.  PEP 318 formalizes things.

Except that with 12-18 months between releases, that's actually a lot longer.

Look, the decision that decorators are going to be in 2.4 was made some
time ago. I've seen absolutely nothing to indicate that this is even faintly
likely to change.


From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Mon Aug  9 18:55:19 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:55:19 -0700
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
	<30260531.0408091048.7011855f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <svblu1-p6h.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

simo wrote:
> Fred <nobody at nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>> I tried wxDesigner and wxGlade, but neither lets me move the widgets
>> around.
>
> Dunno what you're smoking there man!

I think what he means is that they generally force you to use sizers.
For example in wxGlade, if you drag a button out onto a new frame, it
has resize handles but you can't resize or position the button since
it all ends up inside a sizer.  You can type in new size/position in
the object properties but that is insane.

> Qt Designer (for use with PyQt though) or just hand-code the layout,
> it ain't that hard.....

For people who are happy with the licensing issues behind Qt, it is
certainly best of breed.

As for hand coding the layout, don't forget he has come from a VB
world :-)  Using sizers and hand coding is certainly usually in the
best long term interests of many projects, but in the short term
is more time consuming and frustrating (you just want to drag the
buttons around).

Roger




From martindemello at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 21 06:20:20 2004
From: martindemello at yahoo.com (Martin DeMello)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:20:20 GMT
Subject: decorator J4 - any objections?
References: <cab22418.0408201006.16f163b2@posting.google.com>
	<7xbrh5hcpb.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<7NsVc.155687$M95.24909@pd7tw1no>
	<7xd61ledg4.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <ElFVc.170186$J06.89899@pd7tw2no>

Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at nospam.invalid> wrote:
> Martin DeMello <martindemello at yahoo.com> writes:
> > >     def func(arg1, arg2)
> > >         @version("Added in 2.4")
> > >         @returns(None):
> > > 
> > >         """Docstring could be here, or in decorator part above"""
> > >         # body goes here
> > 
> > It's really nice to have an outdented marker for when the actual
> > function body begins.
> 
> I don't really see why, but the decorators don't have to be indented:
> 
>      def func(arg1, arg2)
>      -version("Added in 2.4")
>      -returns(None):
>  
>          """Docstring could be here, or in decorator part above"""
>          # body goes here
> 
> I guess that's ugly though.

Yep. What I love about J4 is it lets you scan a file very quickly,
jumping from function to function and to the body when you find the one
you want. Very little visual clutter.

martin


From info at sgtinfo.com  Fri Aug 27 12:19:41 2004
From: info at sgtinfo.com (Gina Clemmer (SGT, Inc.))
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:19:41 -0700
Subject: Reminder: Oklahoma City Demographic Analysis Workshops (September
	9th and 10th, 2004)
Message-ID: <20040827072237.96F931E4003@bag.python.org>

Oklahoma City Demographic Analysis Workshop Announcement- Still Time to
Register!

When:   September 9th and 10th, 2004 - 9:00 am to 4:00 pm  (One Day
Workshop. Participants may choose either day.)
Where:  New Horizons Computer Training Center, 50 Penn Place, 1900 NW
Expressway, Suite R305 Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 73118
Fee:     $225 w/credit card at time of registration, $249 for check or
purchase order after workshop Register Now

Register online at www.sgtinfo.com or call us at 877.241.6576.
The Oklahoma City Demographic Analysis Workshop will teach you to extract,
query, download, analyze, and map Census demographic data for OKC and
surrounding communities. (Note: Participants may substitute their own
community in exercises-all techniques are directly transferable to other
communities). Such data can provide grant writers, social researchers and
community planners with powerful tools for analyzing community changes.
This is a streamlined, ?hands on? workshop where each participant works on
their own computer throughout the day. 

This workshop also provides an introduction to Geographic Information
Systems (GIS) which includes a discussion of GIS trends and common uses,
where to easily obtain mapping files, a demonstration of the map browser
ArcExplorer (included with your materials), hands on practice making basic
maps online and suggestions for making effective maps. See a detailed
description 
Materials include: A comprehensive workbook that includes the workshop
presentation, exercises, reference materials and a valuable Demographic
Data Resource CD. This CD includes useful GIS tools such as ArcExplorer and
several shapefiles for all communities in the United States. Materials also
include a 60 day trial version of ArcView 8.3, a leading GIS software. Also
included is the 2003 US Statistical Abstract which includes an extensive
selection of statistics for the United States, with selected data for
states, metropolitan areas and cities. 
This workshop will:
Teach you to extract, query, download, analyze, map and present 2000-1990
Census of Population and Housing and 2003 American    Community Survey data
that includes Poverty, Race/Ethnicity, Age, Housing, Language and
Transportation;


Teach you to construct a Local Community Change Profile. The Profile is
comprised of key demographic variables and customized for OKC and a Census
tract within OKC (participants may also substitute their own community);


Teach you analytical, demographic and spatial analysis techniques including
commonly used mathematical formulas to transform raw data into compelling
information;


Teach you about Census geography including common problems such as working
with non-Census boundaries, analyzing change over time despite boundary
changes and how to use new mapping functionality recently built in to
American Factfinder; 


Provide you with exceptional materials that you can use immediately to
assist with social research and analysis.



Former Workshop Participants' Comments: 
View Other Participants' Comments 
Oklahoma University, Research and Evaluation Center (2003)
"Very helpful update on the new technology available from the census bureau
and the thematic maps are extremely important and very much under utilized."
Oklahoma University, Institute For Public Affairs (2003)
"Thanks very much. I wasn't sure this would be beneficial but it exceeded
my expectations in every way. This was an excellent use of my time!"
City of Edmond, Oklahoma (2003)
"Very informative. Every city planner and grant writer should attend this
class." 

Oklahoma Department of Human Services (2003)
"Beneficial, Enjoyable and learned new demographic census processes and the
materials were very helpful."
SmartGirl Technologies is a social research company located in Portland,
Oregon.  For more information about the workshop, who we are and what we
do, check out our website at www.sgtinfo.com.




If do not want to receive further announcements, click here and simply send
us a blank email. We will immediately take you off of the announcement
list. You may also reply to this email with the word "delete" in the
subject line.  Note: Under no circumstance will we share your email with
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From lbates at swamisoft.com  Mon Aug  2 13:45:58 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 12:45:58 -0500
Subject: New to Python/Programming
References: <10gsujk1og2gkbf@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <v6idnQSpgf9L4JPcRVn-iA@comcast.com>

Lots of online documentation and tutorials here:

http://www.python.org/doc/2.3.4/

If you are working on Windows, "Python Programming
on Win32" is a great book that has "Windows specific"
information.

Monitoring this list and watching for "newbie"
questions is also beneficial as many will help
with examples.

I found Python Bible by Brueck and Tanner to be
another excellent book (I purchased both books
at Books a Million).

HTH,
Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.

"Mark" <m.tiesman1 at charter.net> wrote in message
news:10gsujk1og2gkbf at corp.supernews.com...
> Hello.  I am new to programming and Python and was wondering if someone
> could help get me started.  I picked Python to start learning to prgram
> because of some things I have read about it (easy to learn, object
> oriented, clear syntax, etc...).  Can anyone assist in getting me
> started with learning to program and Python?  Recommended reading
> material?  Online tutorials?  Recommended development tools (wxpython,
> pythonwin, etc...)?  I am a network admin by trade and have done little
> programming except for the occasional script or router config.  this is
> something that has always interested me, but don't have the time to take
> any formal classes.  Thanks for the help.




From __peter__ at web.de  Mon Aug 16 07:47:20 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:47:20 +0200
Subject: NumArray array-indexing
References: <a56f3aa5.0408120958.5e9db50d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfq6s8$f2n$06$1@news.t-online.com>

Michael Drumheller wrote:

> array-indexing.  Here's the basic situation: Given a rank-2 array
> (i.e., a matrix) it seems to be trivial, with array indexing,
> to extract a subset of its columns.  But it does not seem
> to be trivial to extract a subset of its rows.  The code

Could it be you are looking for the Ellipsis (...)?

>>> a = numarray.array(range(9), shape=[3,3])
>>> a
array([[0, 1, 2],
       [3, 4, 5],
       [6, 7, 8]])

>>> a[0:2]
array([[0, 1, 2],
       [3, 4, 5]])
>>> a[..., 1]
array([1, 4, 7])
>>> a[..., 1:]
array([[1, 2],
       [4, 5],
       [7, 8]])
>>> a[..., 0:3:2]
array([[0, 2],
       [3, 5],
       [6, 8]])

Of course in 2D you do not really need it:

>>> a[:, :2]
array([[0, 1],
       [3, 4],
       [6, 7]])


But at some point it may make things clearer:

>>> a = numarray.array(range(2**10), shape=[2]*10)
>>> a[...,:][(-1,)*7]
array([[[1016, 1017],
        [1018, 1019]],

       [[1020, 1021],
        [1022, 1023]]])

Peter



From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Wed Aug 18 04:11:27 2004
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 10:11:27 +0200
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
In-Reply-To: <20040817181725194-0400@braeburn.themorgue.org>
References: <20040817181725194-0400@braeburn.themorgue.org>
Message-ID: <41230713$0$20684$626a14ce@news.free.fr>

Kevin Smith wrote:
> For what it's worth, I wrote the original PEP 318.  I probably wasn't 
> qualified, but I just wanted a nice simple way to declare class methods 
> without having to repeat the function name.  After submitting it to BDFL 
> for approval, more work was needed and the discussion of PEP 318 on 
> python-dev increased rapidly.  It was evident that I was in over my head, 
> so I asked more someone more experienced to take over.  
> 
> I guess others had bigger plans for my proposal that I had planned.  It 
> has turned into the "solution" to many problems: type checking (both 
> arguments and returned values), metaclasses, metadata, interfaces, 
> function attributes, etc.).  Unfortunately, in the process, this simple 
> request for syntactical sugar has turned into a monstrosity.  In my 
> opinion, none of the proposed syntaxes really seem Pythonic.  This PEP 
> just seems to be trying to solve too many problems.
> 
> Bear with me, but I'd like to propose one more syntax that is simple, 
> easy for newbies to understand,  and nowhere near as powerful as the 
> current PEP's syntax.  However, it doesn't add incoherent, arbitrary 
> syntax either.
> 
> def classmethod foo(x, y, z):
>     pass
> 
> That's it.  One "decorator" that is a callable object that takes a 
> method as it's only argument.  No expressions, lists, tuples, etc.  Just 
> one callable object.  

+2 for me.


> Ok, if you absolutely must have more than one.
 > def classmethod synchronized foo(x, y, z):
 >     pass

No. If you want more than one, provide your own decorator, ie :

def synchronizedClassmethod(method):
   return synchronized(classmethod(method))

def synchronizedClassmethod foo(x, y, z):
   pass

My 2 eurocents
Bruno



From mauriceling at acm.org  Wed Aug 25 04:04:43 2004
From: mauriceling at acm.org (Maurice LING)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:04:43 GMT
Subject: python bytecodes by hand
Message-ID: <412c4815$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>

I remembered sighting a book "Programming for the Java Virtual Machine" 
by Joshua Engel some time back. In that book, he used Oolong as a way to 
program to JVM and indicated that it is actually possible to write a 
java class file by hand if inclined.

I am just wondering about the structure of a pyc (python bytecode) file 
and has anyone successfully write a functional pyc file by hand?

thanks maurice


From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 11 21:11:40 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 21:11:40 -0400
Subject: wiki update: decorator syntax breakdown
In-Reply-To: <d11dcfba.0408111637.30c8b012@posting.google.com>
References: <d11dcfba.0408111637.30c8b012@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <411ac3cc$1@nntp.zianet.com>

Steven Bethard wrote:
> Just wanted to let everyone know that I went through the wiki and
> tried to consolidate some of the advantages/disadvantages of the
> various syntax decisions:

Cool!

*rummage* *rummage*

Hm. Just as a note, I didn't spot the following (recent?) variant:

class C:
   def c(self):
     meta:
       classmethod
       doc('This is a function!')
     pass

For example, see the "Decorators proposal" thread.

Thanks for all the hard work.

   -- Mark


From maney at pobox.com  Mon Aug  9 18:40:31 2004
From: maney at pobox.com (Martin Maney)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:40:31 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Question on lists
References: <41071cfe$0$60648$d5a6236f@newsreader.cybernetik.net>
	<VaKNc.126557$od7.8959@pd7tw3no> <ce8bni$e0v$1@panix3.panix.com>
Message-ID: <cf8ugv$lhj$1@wheel2.two14.net>

Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> Elaine Jackson <elainejackson7355 at home.com> wrote:
>>
>>If x is the given sequence, then
>>[x[i] for i in filter(lambda i: i==0 or x[i-1]<>x[i], range(len(x)))]
>>is what you want.

> Please report to the UnPythonic Activities Committee.  ;-)

Has the committee considered the other functional solution?

>>> def dedupe(lst, x):   
...     if not lst or lst[-1] != x:
...             lst.append(x)
...     return lst
... 
>>> reduce(dedupe, l, [])
['a', 'b', 'c', 'd', 'e']

If it would help, I'm sure we could get an obfuscation expert to make
it into one line, but without a first-class conditional expression,
it's nothing but a circus trick.  Perl envy, like.

Oh, okay, twist my arm...

>>> reduce(lambda r,x: (not r or r[-1]!=x) and r.append(x) or r, l, [])
['a', 'b', 'c', 'd', 'e']

I knew reduce would come in handy for something.

> "To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
> koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
> discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com

Apparently vi also shares with koans the characteristic of battering
down the walls of rationality.  :-)

-- 
Although we may never know with complete certainty the identity
of the winner of this year's presidential election, the identity
of the loser is perfectly clear.  It is the nation's confidence
in the judge as an impartial guardian of the law.
 - Justice John Paul Stevens, from his dissenting opinion Dec 12, 2000


From mwilson at the-wire.com  Tue Aug 10 08:01:00 2004
From: mwilson at the-wire.com (Mel Wilson)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 08:01:00 -0400
Subject: Decorators
References: <%A8Rc.50217$Vm1.1280580@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<ad052e5c.0408071826.29f1bfb0@posting.google.com>
	<10hfoqa9cj3e356@corp.supernews.com>
	<3GURc.11274$Mq1.610387@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<mailman.1431.1092121563.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <8jLGBls/KTpY089yn@the-wire.com>

In article <mailman.1431.1092121563.5135.python-list at python.org>,
Andrew Durdin <adurdin at gmail.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:29:59 -0400, Colin J. Williams <cjw at sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>> There is also the question of whether 'decorator', a term which is used
>> in everyday langage as indicating adornment, is the best choice for a
>> transformation.
>
>def deco(f):
>    print f.__name__, "is now pretty!"
>    return f

def deco (f):
    print f.__name__, "is now pretty!"
    def t (*s,**k):
        print """\
I'm so pretty, oh so pretty!
I'm so pretty and witty and bright!
"""
    return t

>
>@deco
>def ugly_function():
>    pass


Throw in an f(*s,**k) there if you really feel you must.


        Regards.        Mel.


Portions copyright by Stephen Sondheim or somebody.


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 06:10:31 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:10:31 +1000
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
In-Reply-To: <cg4huk$mgn$2@sea.gmane.org>
References: <mailman.1829.1092785390.5135.python-list@python.org>	<65adnQrUKILiC7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>	<mailman.1834.1092791633.5135.python-list@python.org>	<m2vffgd6pu.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>	<mailman.1858.1092832530.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Michael.J.Fromberger-6AF702.10114718082004@localhost>	<mailman.1891.1092854353.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Michael.J.Fromberger-FF646E.17492318082004@localhost>	<mailman.1909.1092869465.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Michael.J.Fromberger-F6FD2B.21140718082004@localhost>	<cg1vp4$vgd$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040819034652e5089f@mail.gmail.com>	<cg24a4$vgd$3@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed204081911025720b7fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<cg4huk$mgn$2@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408200310154db1fc@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 05:57:42 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I know you weren't Anthony (that was a joke).  I understand that you
> don't like this idea, but that doesn't make it a _bad_ one. Numerous
> people have *not* effectively pointed out the problems with it (and
> neither have you, sir).

Err, what? Have you bothered to read the replies I sent to you? This 
is _bad_ magic behaviour. Python does not care about argument lists
now, and adding this is icky. Your behaviour when _adding_ methods 
to classes is extremely undefined, particularly in the presence of 
descriptors. Explaining this to new users would be complex. It's a 
messy interference in the way Python's OO builds classes and objects,
which is currently very clear and easy to follow[1]. It's not explicit, but
implicit. How many ways do I have to spell this out? 

[1] with the double-underscore mangling put to one side, or preferably,
off a bridge.

The only argument _for_ this that you've offered is that it's just like the
double-underscores. This is a losing argument (with me, anyway) as
I regard the double-underscore mangling as awful - that sort of "data
hiding" just ends up being a pain in the arse when you want to poke 
with a class's internals. Python regards everyone as an adult in that 
respect, unlike the "protecting you from yourself" C++ nightmare. In
addition, the double-underscore is just random magic that occurs when
a class is created, not subsequently:

>>> class A:
...   __foo = 1
... 
>>> dir(A)
['_A__foo', '__doc__', '__module__']
>>> A.__bar = 2
>>> dir(A)
['_A__foo', '__bar', '__doc__', '__module__']

for the same reasons, your idea would lead to inconsistencies.

Anthony


From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Aug  6 15:37:02 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 21:37:02 +0200
Subject: [Python-Dev] RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <cf056e$glb$1@news3.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1196.1091715567.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cev7mj$lt6$1@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
	<4113429a$0$26993$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<cevs3k$386$1@news5.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
	<41137960.6050400@v.loewis.de>
	<cf056e$glb$1@news3.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
Message-ID: <4113dddd$0$12507$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

vincent wehren wrote:
> This is on Windows XP Professional. This is a plain vanilla "limited 
> user" created via the user accounts tool in the control panel.

Ok. I will try that.

There is a policy AlwaysInstallElevated, with which the administrator
can allow limited users to perform installations:
 
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/msi/setup/alwaysinstallelevated.asp

If the computer is in a domain, this policy can be controlled through
group policy.

Regards,
Martin


From export at hope.cz  Fri Aug 13 15:22:41 2004
From: export at hope.cz (Lad)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 12:22:41 -0700
Subject: How to sort records in file
Message-ID: <81a41dd.0408131122.21180d0d@posting.google.com>

What is the best( easiest)way how to sort a file?
I have a file where each record consists of 3 fields( 3 words) and I
would like to sort records by the first field( word)in each record.
Any idea?
Thanks for help
Lad


From listserver at tdw.net  Fri Aug  6 12:18:29 2004
From: listserver at tdw.net (Tim Williams)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 17:18:29 +0100
Subject: Finding a function name
References: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA1E@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>
Message-ID: <010401c47bd1$02eb68a0$ccbefea9@twilliams>

[ 1 step up from Newbie ]

How can I find a function's name from within the function?

>>> print container.trailing_period.__name__
trailing_period

>>> print container.trailing_period.func_name
trailing_period

but from within the function itself,   print (either option) gives
"container"

TIA



From python at simon.vc  Mon Aug  9 08:02:19 2004
From: python at simon.vc (SimonVC)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 05:02:19 -0700
Subject: recursive list comprehension
Message-ID: <fa156589.0408090402.5ef3c40b@posting.google.com>

Is there a way to do this as a list comprehension?

>>> def recu(alist, blist=[]):
...     if len(alist)==0: print blist
...     for i in range(len(alist)):
...             blist.append(alist.pop(i))
...             recu(alist, blist)
...             alist.insert(i, blist.pop())

>>> recu(list("abc"))
['a', 'b', 'c']
['a', 'c', 'b']
['b', 'a', 'c']
['b', 'c', 'a']
['c', 'a', 'b']
['c', 'b', 'a']


Cheers 
  SimonVC

keywords: python recursive permutations algorithm combination jumble


From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 18 12:43:52 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:43:52 -0500
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1866.1092838539.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<mailman.1866.1092838539.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <zGLUc.4438$bJ2.29655@news1.mts.net>

27


Mike C. Fletcher wrote:
> survey that might have this information with *real* numbers.  Theres a 
> good little bump among the scientific and core-dev peoples for late 
> forties and above (maybe those careers keep you flexible enough to try 
> new things?  Maybe the projects are experimental enough that using a 
> "new" language isn't a problem?)
The people who enter a carreer that involves science to any real degree 
*must* mantain flexibility.  They typically do research and nothing 
would really get done if this weren't the case.

Since experimental math came along (very recent - I believe in just the 
last few years) and since numerics is a large part of Physics now, it'd 
make sense that the older ones would pick up an easy to learn language. 
  And since the GSL has python bindings, all the better.


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug  9 11:53:12 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 11:53:12 -0400
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
In-Reply-To: <vf5fh01f7bri20nnu89516o1c0cvsgf4ie@4ax.com>
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
	<vf5fh01f7bri20nnu89516o1c0cvsgf4ie@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <DdSdnQUt5MZ0AIrcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>

Gary wrote:

> Boa Constructor is a diamond in the rough:
> http://boa-constructor.sourceforge.net/files/boa-constructor-0.2.8-snapshot.tgz

Didn't you mean "a snake in the grass"?  ;-)


From Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com  Fri Aug 20 09:30:21 2004
From: Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com (Ames Andreas (MPA/DF))
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:30:21 +0200
Subject: [Q] Bug in cgi.FieldStorage?
Message-ID: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA2E@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>

Hi,

I'm currently using Zope 2.7.2-0 which in turn uses cgi.FieldStorage
from Python 2.3.4.

FieldStorage can either build a 'list' or a 'file' to represent a
request.  Unfortunately it overwrites __len__ such that it throws an
exception when the request wasn't of type 'multipart', i.e. when it
doesn't 'return' a list but a file.  I'd consider this a bug because
if you have an instance fs of FieldStorage you can't safely write

if fs:
   ...

because of the unfortunate __len__ implementation (it raises a
TypeError exception in some cases).  I might be willing to accept that
this isn't python's bug but mine if someone argues smartly enough.

What's is the right thing to do in this case (and in the general
case)?

1) The idiom 'if fs:' is borked. I'm not supposed to use it, I should
   have known and I'm dumb.  Instead I'm supposed to use 'if fs is not
   None:' or something.  (This seems to be smart enough an argument
   for me :-)

2) cgi.FieldStorage should have a more appropriate __len__
   implementation.  If so, how?

3) cgi.FieldStorage should overwrite __nonzero__ to always return 1.
   I'm leaning towards this one.  Am I right?


tia,

andreas



From pete at shinners.org  Mon Aug  2 10:31:08 2004
From: pete at shinners.org (Pete Shinners)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 07:31:08 -0700
Subject: Pygame - Only ONE Font found!?
In-Reply-To: <Xns95369F0F85C5DaskariaddressNonVali@207.35.177.135>
References: <Xns95369F0F85C5DaskariaddressNonVali@207.35.177.135>
Message-ID: <celj69$4kf$1@sea.gmane.org>

Askari wrote:
> print "ListFont :", pygame.font.get_fonts()
> 
> the resultat is:
>     ListFont : ['netropaosdicon']

On Windows, Pygame finds its system fonts in the registry. It looks 
under one of these locations. I'd say load up regedit and see if your 
fonts are in there.

     "SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Fonts"
     "SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Fonts"



From adurdin at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 01:23:22 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:23:22 +1000
Subject: The winner of the Python Decorator Poll is...
In-Reply-To: <4edc17eb.0408112052.1bbd85b3@posting.google.com>
References: <Ue-dnX0CBNhaEYfcRVn-ig@comcast.com>
	<mailman.1533.1092259988.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4edc17eb.0408112052.1bbd85b3@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a04081122235b3d9145@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 Aug 2004 21:52:03 -0700, Michele Simionato
<michele.simionato at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Indeed. Actually I did not vote since I like the current proposal (maybe
> I would like "|"  more than "@") and I dislike all the alternatives,
> especially having decorators inside the def.

Since you like the current proposal, why *didn't* you vote for it (it
was the first one)?


From jens.news at webgear.co.za  Sat Aug 14 11:47:09 2004
From: jens.news at webgear.co.za (Jens Thiede)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:47:09 +0200
Subject: Regular Expressions
Message-ID: <cflc77$p20$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

What is the easiest way to generate a list that contains all the 
remnants of re.findall (the inverse of the following).

 >>> file = open("index.html", "r")
 >>> data = file.read()
 >>> patern = re.compile("<title>(.*)</title>", re.S | re.I)
 >>> patern.findall(data)
['Damn Small Expansions!']
 >>> file.close()

re.split doesn't seem to work quite well, but then, I'm probably using 
it wrong.

Any suggestions?

Jens.


From brian at rk-speed-rugby.dk  Mon Aug 30 07:32:03 2004
From: brian at rk-speed-rugby.dk (Brian Elmegaard)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 13:32:03 +0200
Subject: From python to LaTeX in emacs on windows
Message-ID: <u4qmkzwss.fsf@rk-speed-rugby.dk>

Hi group

I hope this is not a faq...

I try to understand how to use the new way of specifying a files
encoding, but no matter what I do I get strange characters in the
output. 

I have a text file which I have generated in python by parsing some
html.

In the file there is international characters like ? and ?.
I can see the file in emacs it is encoded as 
mule-utf-8-dos

I read the file into python as a string and suddenly the characters
when printed looks strange and consists of two characters. 

First problem: How do I avoid this?

Second problem is that I make some string replacements and more in
the string to write a latex output file. When I open this file in
emacs the characters now are not the same?

Second problem: How do I avoid this?

tia,
-- 
Brian (remove the sport for mail)
http://www.et.dtu.dk/staff/be


From birded at verizon.net  Sun Aug 22 12:53:47 2004
From: birded at verizon.net (Sherrod Faulks)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 16:53:47 GMT
Subject: Jython/Python and javax.swing.*
Message-ID: <2004082212534416807%birded@verizonnet>

I'm using Jython and in the python script I do:

from javax import swing
result = javax.swing.JOptionPane.showInputDialog(wC, cmd[8:],"Prompt 
from " + client.serverName, JOptionPane.PLAIN_MESSAGE)

wC is a JFrame, cmd is a String and client.serverName is a String.
It won't show the JOptionPane, why?



From cybermanxu at hotmail.com  Wed Aug  4 12:32:16 2004
From: cybermanxu at hotmail.com (Jinming Xu)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 11:32:16 -0500
Subject: I got it! How to force a single number to be a tuple
Message-ID: <BAY9-F59PMvVAtCUQNs0003afd2@hotmail.com>

Sorry for the previous message. It's really a simple question and I have 
solved it myself.

Thanks,

Jinming

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Folks,

I have a number sequence, which is put into a tuple like this:

y=2, 3.0, 4.5

I can manipulate the sequence as a tuple when it has more than 1 number. But 
when the sequence has only 1 number, like

y=2

I have trouble to manipulate it as a tuple.  I guess there must be a way to 
forece a single number to be a tuple. Could anyone please tell me that?

Thanks,

Jinming

_________________________________________________________________
Discover the best of the best at MSN Luxury Living. http://lexus.msn.com/



From ramen at lackingtalent.com  Fri Aug 27 12:22:51 2004
From: ramen at lackingtalent.com (Dave Benjamin)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:22:51 -0000
Subject: Proposal for removing self
References: <mailman.2479.1093564328.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj65zl.1cuz9ub5xyo3rN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <slrnciuotp.tkp.ramen@lackingtalent.com>

In article <1gj65zl.1cuz9ub5xyo3rN%aleaxit at yahoo.com>, Alex Martelli wrote:
> Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy) <tdelaney at avaya.com> wrote:
> 
>> Andrea Griffini wrote:
>> 
>> > I remember Alex Martelli advocating in our italian newsgroup on
>> > C++ that C++ programmers should use "this->..." everywhere :-)
>> 
>> I evangelise this here (mainly for Java code these days, but close
>> enough). Unfortunately, I don't seem to be able to convince anyone else
> 
> While it's also a good idea in Java, it's not as compelling as in C++,
> because Java mostly lacks the complications due to C++'s templates and
> freestanding ("not inside a class") names (haven't looked at Java
> generics so I don't know if they got those complications back in;-).

Java's generics aren't nearly as liberal as C++ templates. They're basically
just syntax sugar for casting, so I doubt this would change much. I still
prefer the explicit "this." or "self.", mainly because it is a pattern that
I can use consistently across all of the languages I regularly program in
(JavaScript and ActionScript, like Python, make "this" mandatory as well).

I like it better, stylistically, because I feel like I can determine more
readily where things are coming from, but each language has its own scoping
rules (Java has no modules, for instance. I wonder how it works for inner
classes...) so I can't really make an argument across the board that
"this." / "self." is always better.

That said, if an existing C++ or Java code base uses prefixes for all
instance variables, it's a bit redundant to add "this.". I have this
situation at my work, where I reluctantly have to make an exception to avoid
pissing people off. ;)

-- 
 .:[ dave benjamin: ramen/[sp00] -:- spoomusic.com -:- ramenfest.com ]:.
        "talking about music is like dancing about architecture."


From mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no  Mon Aug 23 16:47:28 2004
From: mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no (Magnus Lie Hetland)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:47:28 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Standard graph API?
References: <slrncik8tm.4g.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
	<YssWc.503921$Gx4.282534@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <slrnciklv0.e8q.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>

In article
<YssWc.503921$Gx4.282534 at bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, wes
weston wrote:
[snip]
>
>Magnus,
>    Do you have any design thoughts. It would be good to have weighted,
>directed graphs and depth first traversal.

I've thought of several alternatives; basically, I just thought about
defining the "standard" API for the basic abstract data type
(including weights, direction, labels, colours etc.). Concrete
implementations and algorithms would be a separate issue.

>wes

-- 
Magnus Lie Hetland     "Canned Bread: The greatest thing since sliced
http://hetland.org      bread!" [from a can in Spongebob Squarepants]


From jerf at jerf.org  Mon Aug 23 20:16:46 2004
From: jerf at jerf.org (Jeremy Bowers)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 00:16:46 GMT
Subject: Getting at the bits of a 32-bit integer
References: <85b54e91.0408231552.75f85727@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.23.20.16.40.406025@jerf.org>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:52:07 -0700, Jacob H wrote:
> 00000000 00000000 00000000 11111111
> 
> There are plenty of unused bits to the left of the number itself. If I
> wanted to use some of these bits as true/false flags, how would I go about
> it? In Python, how do I write code that gets at the leftmost byte, or the
> third bit from the left of the set of 32, or the rightmost byte plus the
> bit to its left, etc...

Well, the basic answer is the same as C, with &, >>, and appropriate
constants for what you are doing.

>>> #access the 10th bit
>>> a = 1025
>>> (a & 1024) >> 10
1
>>> a = 1023
>>> (a & 1024) >> 10
0

Obviously, you need better constants and stuff.

However, I must challenge your need to do this in the first place.
Python and bit twiddling generally don't go together; even if you are
accessing a binary file or protocol you should shuffle out as much to the
struct (?) module as possible. If you want to track every bit and byte,
Python is the wrong language for you... and unless you are tracking many
many millions of bits, this is the wrong decade for it.

Use a class, and set members on it to true or false for your flags. 

>>> class DummyStruct: pass
>>> flags = DummyStruct()
>>> flags.aFlag = True

(The nice thing about such classes is you will often find them smoothly
transition into really *useful* classes, emphasis on the plural "classes" :-).)

The bit twiddling will most likely be *much* slower than this, and unless
you're dealing with millions of these, the memory savings will be zilch.

If you *are* dealing with millions of these, be sure to look at the
"array" module.



From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Thu Aug  5 23:11:05 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 23:11:05 -0400
Subject: BayPIGgies: August 12, 7:30pm
Message-ID: <20040806031104.GA27907@panix.com>

The next meeting of BayPIGgies will be Thurs August 12 at 7:30pm.  It
will feature general discussion of programming and debugging GUI
applications (Qt, Tkinter, wxPython, etc).

BayPIGgies meetings are in Stanford, California.  For more information
and directions, see http://www.baypiggies.net/


Before the meeting, some people meet at 6pm for dinner in
downtown Palo Alto.  Ducky Sherwood is handling that; please send RSVPs
to ducky at osafoundation.org 
Discussion of dinner plans is handled on the BayPIGgies mailing list.


Advance notice: The September 9 meeting agenda has not been set.  Please
send e-mail to baypiggies at baypiggies.net if you want to make a
presentation.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From raims at dot.com  Thu Aug 12 04:07:15 2004
From: raims at dot.com (Lawrence Oluyede)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 10:07:15 +0200
Subject: SQL Qeries via XMLRPC
References: <mailman.1423.1092099390.5135.python-list@python.org><3ovlu1-l6f.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<mailman.1492.1092226236.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<uqfqu1-3i6.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
Message-ID: <1orq79s4gr62m.1fbwir1nwacqx$.dlg@40tude.net>


I did something (as an excercise) like you were asking for with a friend,
it's based on twisted and send queries against a sqlite db (for testing,
but you can plug into it easily another db). The source code is LGPL and
the package ships with a couple of (quite-working and untested) web
interfaces (cgi and webware). It ships also with a test.

Its primary interfaces are XML-RPC and SOAP ones

So, have a look and tell me if some code suits your needs. To execute it
type: twistd -noy pydbserver.py (as root)

bye!

http://www26.brinkster.com/rhymes/pydbserver.tar.gz

-- 
Lawrence (l dot oluyede at virgilio dot it)
"If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea."
from The Zen of Python by Tim Peters


From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu  Fri Aug 20 16:39:54 2004
From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Daniel Yoo)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:39:54 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: IDLE
References: <c69396de.0408201108.4c02043a@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408202113210.1138-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <cg5niq$19hv$1@agate.berkeley.edu>

Peter Kleiweg <in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid> wrote:
: george schreef:

:> Newbie question.
:>
:> Installed Python 2.4 successfully.
:> However, double clicking on the IDLE icon activates the hour glass
:> cursor and then dies. The IDLE window does not come up.
:> I am sure it is something trivial that I am not doing

: Happended to me too. Idle is trying to get access to tcp/ip
: services and can't find them on Windows.


You may have port '8833' blocked: that's the port that IDLE uses to
talk to itself.  Windows XP comes with a firewall that's a bit
hostile, and if the firewall is on, then it prevents IDLE from running.


If it is a firewall issue, then it may be fixable.  Microsoft has an
article that explains how to open up port:

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/networking/expert/bowman_november12.mspx

Good luck!


From smulloni at bracknell.smullyan.org  Tue Aug  3 23:00:53 2004
From: smulloni at bracknell.smullyan.org (Jacob Smullyan)
Date: 3 Aug 2004 23:00:53 -0400
Subject: Mucking with the calling scripts namespace (For a good reason,
	honest!)
References: <e08cd05f.0408020727.15ce4356@posting.google.com>
	<rJudnRiTPvRB8JPcRVn-gw@comcast.com>
	<e08cd05f.0408031120.4eb60a7b@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <slrnch0kb5.u0v.smulloni@bracknell.smullyan.org>

On 2004-08-03, Doug Rosser <da_rosser at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Thank you for your help Larry. Let me see if I've got this straight:
>
> 1. Python doesn't provide an obvious way to modify the __main__
> namespace. You can peek at values with "global" but you can't treat it
> like a dictionary at runtime.
>
> 2. If you need to access objects that won't have names until run-time
> (but you incidentally -KNOW- their names and want to reference them in
> a bit of code), encapsulate them in a container. This effectively
> creates a new not-really namespace, as the objects in the container
> become attributes.
>
> Well, all-in-all, I'd really still rather have #1, but I can live with
> #2.

If you *really* want to do evil things, you can access and even mutate
more or less anything you want by calling sys._getframe(n) where n is
the number of frames offset from the current frame:

>>> import sys
>>> def bestupid(v):
...     f=sys._getframe(1)
...     f.f_globals['STUPID']=v
... 
>>> bestupid(100)
>>> dir()
['STUPID', '__builtins__', '__doc__', '__name__', 'bestupid', 'sys']
>>> STUPID
100
>>> bestupid(0)
>>> STUPID
0

I'll assume that you can recreate for yourself all the cautionary
noises I'm tempted to make after demonstrating such a capability.

js
-- 
Jacob Smullyan


From timblack1 at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 21 01:31:44 2004
From: timblack1 at yahoo.com (Tim)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 22:31:44 -0700
Subject: How to set wxTextCtrl style to wxHSCROLL?
Message-ID: <b8abecbd.0408202131.3418dae@posting.google.com>

How can I set the style attribute in the following wxTextCtrl to a new
style AFTER I have already instantiated the wxTextCtrl?  I'm trying to
toggle the word wrap attribute of the wxTextCtrl, just like Edit->Word
Wrap does in Windows Notepad.  (I'm building a Windows Notepad clone
in wxPython to prove to a VB friend that it can be done.)

Here is the wxTextCtrl instantiation:

--------------
    self.txtEditor = wxTextCtrl(id=wxID_WXFRAME1TXTEDITOR,
name='txtEditor',
        parent=self, pos=wxPoint(0, 0), size=wxSize(760, 492),
        style=wxTE_MULTILINE, value='')
--------------

Here is the code I've tried to set the style to a new value:

--------------
    def OnMnuEditWordwrapMenu(self, event):
        # TODO: implement word wrap
        self.txtEditor.SetStyle(0, self.txtEditor.GetLastPosition(),
wxHSCROLL)
        #self.txtEditor.style = 'wxHSCROLL'

--------------

What is the correct syntax?

Thanks!

Tim


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 28 03:43:55 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:43:55 +0200
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xzn4gwgea.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7a1o.1a5d2q410jsn2kN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xisb4xnh5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7c1a.tfdm14p3hclcN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xd61benm9.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <1gj82n3.1ylkr3nierngmN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:

> aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:
> > While the overall way the new import hooks work is well documented in
> > their PEP, zipimport is admittedly underdocumented.  I suggest peeking
> 
> OK.  I'll look at the PEP.  I think adding signing is hairy enough
> that it should have its own round of discussion; should I see about
> editing the PEP to add something about signing?

I think that would be an excellent idea.  If it was just about allowing
import from signed zipfiles it might not be needed, but how best to let
the user optionally DIS-allow imports from UN-signed files does appear
to be something requiring a little debate.  An environment variable
would have the advantage of letting the disallowing work even for the
early imports that Python does before application code gets control, but
some people dislike relying on environment variables particularly for
security-related configuration tasks.  Would it make sense to rely on a
naming convention instead?  I.e. foo.zip would be unsigned but bar.jar
would have to be signed or else no go.  This would have the advantage of
allowing substantial granularity in controlling this.

Side question, does module zipfile already have the code to allow
reading such signed files?  Otherwise a first, uncontentious step, in
parallel with the PEP, might be a patch to add that ability to zipfile.


Alex
  


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Sun Aug 29 09:22:57 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 15:22:57 +0200
Subject: Get all subdirs
In-Reply-To: <cgsk49$82c$00$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <cgsk49$82c$00$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408291519070.2571-100000@kleigh.nl>

Florian Lindner schreef:

> Hello,
> how can I get all subdirectories of a given directory. os.listdir(dir)
> doesn't differentiate between directories and files, os.walk seems to me a
> bit overkill since it also descends in the subdirs.

#!/usr/bin/env python

import os

dir = '.'   # '.' is current directory

for i in os.listdir(dir):
    if os.path.isdir(os.path.join(dir, i)):
        print i


Bby the way, on Linux, I noticed that the directories '.' and
'..' are not returned by os.listdir


-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 15 18:49:04 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 17:49:04 -0500
Subject: Python secure?
In-Reply-To: <ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
Message-ID: <ZKRTc.3710$bJ2.23892@news1.mts.net>

Roger Binns wrote:
> Calvin wrote:
> 
>>Sorry I should have said I'm new to programming let alone Python. I
>>wish to know whether Python is secure as an exe for a commercial
>>product.
> 
> 
> Yes.  Anyone who recovers your "code" and/or uses it will be in
> violation of copyright and several other laws.  That is legal
> protection no matter what languages or combination of languages
> you use.
> 
> Roger 
> 
> 

I assume you are talking about reverse engineering.  If so, that just 
depends on that particular countries laws.  Some allow and some don't.


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Tue Aug 17 10:09:50 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:09:50 -0400
Subject: How big can a Python program be?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1796.1092750642.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1796.1092750642.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408170959080.32693-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Ben Last wrote:

> (3665, '/cygdrive/c/Python23/Lib/lib-tk/Tkinter.py')

For the record, that's 2201 lines of code, and 1464 lines of 
documentation.  Quite a good example of the relative importance of 
documentation.  (Something I could learn from ;))



From meldron at meldron.org  Wed Aug 25 04:39:44 2004
From: meldron at meldron.org (Bernd Kaiser)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:39:44 +0200
Subject: kill/cancel a started thread
Message-ID: <2p31fvFfb10tU1@uni-berlin.de>

How can i kill/cancel a started threading.Thread?

Regards,
Bernd Kaiser


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Fri Aug  6 09:18:42 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:18:42 -0400
Subject: Proposed improved decorator syntax
In-Reply-To: <Xns953D1C498DEE3ukcoREMOVEfreenetrtw@130.133.1.4>
References: <mailman.1235.1091753699.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Xns953D1C498DEE3ukcoREMOVEfreenetrtw@130.133.1.4>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408060917330.30087-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On 6 Aug 2004, Rob Williscroft wrote:

>  wrote in news:mailman.1235.1091753699.5135.python-list at python.org in 
> comp.lang.python:
> 
> > class foo:
> >     def introduceNewFeature(self, someArgument, anotherArgument):
> >         .decorate = [synchronized]
> >         .accepts  = (int, int)
> >         .author   = 'Chris King'
> >         pass # whatever
> > 
> > 
> 
> AIUI it is intended that prefix '.' will be used at some point
> with a 'with'/'using' keyword:
> 
> class Foo:
>   def f( self ):
>    with self:
>     .member = value

Which makes it all the more intuitive (def is acting similar to a with 
block).



From jerf at jerf.org  Mon Aug 30 14:24:55 2004
From: jerf at jerf.org (Jeremy Bowers)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 18:24:55 GMT
Subject: Generator expressions v/s list comprehensions
References: <mahesh-525B07.12195528082004@individual.net>
	<1gj8y77.6qshr41q531veN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<mahesh-7E265C.14093428082004@individual.net>
	<87llfywooz.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<mahesh-F76AD6.17094429082004@individual.net>
	<1gjbs1e.assxlxlud1m0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xbrgtrq4r.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.30.14.24.59.56534@jerf.org>

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 01:23:16 -0700, Paul Rubin wrote:

>  These things exist in other languages and had been
> requested in Python for years before they got accepted.  And every
> time some little thing gets added changing the language, that creates
> a new mini-dialect that users have to remember for a while and then
> forget.  The result is "version fatigue"; one gets bleary trying to
> remember what's in the language this week.  Those features are in
> other languages for a reason, and there's been enough experience using
> them (in those languages) that their desirability for Python should
> never have seriously been in question.

Along with the other two poster's points, you have a whiff of an implied
argument that somehow, these amorphous "other languages" somehow *didn't*
go through "version fatigue", and are therefore somehow better. This is
false if you take it out of the realm of amorphous, implied claim and look
at it in the light of day. Show me a language that has never suffered from
these problems and anyone actually uses. If you can show me one, show me a
few more.

C changed. C++ changed. Fortran changed. COBOL changed. LISP has changed.
Python changed, Perl changed, Haskell changed, Javascript changed,
everything changed. None of those languages decided that the correct
solution is to simply throw everything in (even Ada, C++, and Perl, all of
which have that reputation, really didn't in the sense you're getting at
here). 

The claim that other languages have features, *therefore* we shouldn't
stop to think about whether they are good and they should all be added to
Python without debate boggles the mind when viewed head on. Pure
non-sequitor.

(BTW, note levels of debate are proportional to how many people bother to
debate, and nothing else. It is one reason a language can not
effectively grow to the community size of Python without strong leadership
and why I am glad that Python runs under a BDFL system. Most of the debate
you may see here in c.l.p. is really effectively irrelevant, and should be
mentally categorized as such; that debate does not constitute true design
involvement. Thus, pointing out "high levels of debate" in the newsgroup
doesn't convince me of much, since it really means little. To the extent
that it does sometimes matter, the amortized effect of any given message
is simply miniscule; the entire debate of a thousand messages may have no
effect whatsoever on Guido, or manifest itself as a single document of
moderate length that he may *still* reject.)


From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Wed Aug 25 17:05:37 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:05:37 -0400
Subject: ASPN Python cookbook in a chm
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2345.1093432533.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2345.1093432533.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <FpadnXUlV6qCYrHcRVn-hQ@giganews.com>

dody wrote:

> ASPN Python cookbook in a .chm file
> ===================================
> 
> last updated: 25 August 2004
> 
> http://miaw.tcom.ou.edu/~dody/aspnpython.chm

good stuff


From jonaskoelker at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  3 12:59:10 2004
From: jonaskoelker at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Jonas=20Koelker?=)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 17:59:10 +0100 (BST)
Subject: how to do proper subclassing?
Message-ID: <20040803165910.40250.qmail@web41509.mail.yahoo.com>

Hello there.

I'm new to this list (/me welcomes himself).

anyways, I'm having doubts about how to subclass
properly. The big picture is that I want to handle
permutations. As we all know, two popular notation
forms exist: products of disjoint cycles ("(0 1 3)(2
4)") and 2*length matrices with the identity
permutation as the first line ([0 1 2 3 4] over [1 3 4
0 2]). I find the latter more appropriate, since it's
easy to store as a list (one can skip the first line,
assuming it's _always_ the identity). 

However, I want the permutation to act like a list, in
all those cases where I don't override the operations.
For example, assuming permfooation is the above
permutation [1 3 4 0 2], permfooation[1:3] should
return [3,4]. How is this done? Do I have to actually
implement a slice-mechanism in the permutation class?

thanks,

-- Jonas K?lker


	
	
		
___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!  http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com


From jack at performancedrivers.com  Thu Aug 19 17:45:45 2004
From: jack at performancedrivers.com (Jack Diederich)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:45:45 -0400
Subject: problem using C-bindings
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.19.20.32.09.806717@eq.homelinux.org>
References: <pan.2004.08.19.20.32.09.806717@eq.homelinux.org>
Message-ID: <20040819214545.GD23725@performancedrivers.com>

On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 10:32:15PM +0200, eq wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm trying to create a program(written in C) that does the following
> things using embedded Python:
> 1. Create a module(say, "MyModule")
> 2. Create a class in that module(say, "MyClass")
> 3. Create a function in that module(say, "MyFunction")
[snip]
> 	class_dict=PyDict_New();
> 	class_name=PyString_FromString("MyClass");
> 	class=PyClass_New(NULL,class_dict,class_name);
> 	PyDict_SetItemString(module_dict,"MyClass",class);
[snip]

Take a look at Modules/xxsubtype.c in the source distribution.
It is an example of how to subtype a builtin.  xxmodule.c shows
how to make a class from scratch.  Both are out of date but a good
sarting spot.

You could also give Pyrex a try, it makes it easier to write just
a hot function or two of a class in C.  I like it to prototype C versions
of hotspot functions (but then do the final version 'by hand').

-Jack


From joshway at myway.com  Wed Aug 18 15:12:46 2004
From: joshway at myway.com (JCM)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:12:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Embedding Python in Python
References: <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
	<7xu0v0l2be.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <cg09ne$ma7$1@fred.mathworks.com>

Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at nospam.invalid> wrote:
...
> There was a feature called rexec/Bastion for that purposes in older
> version of Python, but it was removed because it was insecure.

>> Any ideas/examples?

> Run your sensitive stuff in a separate process (or separate computer)
> and allow the hostile clients to communicate through sockets.

If you're concerned about security, another possibility is to parse
the user's code and look for anything potentially dangerous.  You'll
need to be aggressive, but I believe it's possible.  For example,
disallow exec statements, the identifier "eval", any identifier of
__this__ form, import statements, etc.  This is overly restrictive,
but it will provide security.


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Mon Aug  2 12:37:48 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 11:37:48 -0500
Subject: Mucking with the calling scripts namespace (For a good reason,
	honest!)
References: <e08cd05f.0408020727.15ce4356@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <rJudnRiTPvRB8JPcRVn-gw@comcast.com>

I would suggest following:

1) Change the config file into proper format for
ConfigParser module.

[server_001]
hostname=alpha
os=posix

[server_002]
hostname=beta
os=win

[client_001]
hostname=ichi
os=posix

[client_002]
hostname=ni
os=posix

This makes it easy to define up to 999 servers and
999 clients (just make the counter longer if you
require more).

2) Create classes to hold information/methods that
will work on each server/client.

class server:
    def __init__(self, server_id, name, os):
        self.id=server_id
        self.name=name
        self.os=os
        return

    def dosomething(self):
        #
        # Insert code here to do something on this
        # server.
        #
        return

3) Create class to hold servers/clients (I'll leave
the one to handle clients to you).

class servers:
    def __init__(self, INI):
        #
        # Create an index pointer for next method
        #
        self.next_index=0
        #
        # Create a list to hold server names
        #
        self.names=[]
        serverlist=[x for x in INI.sections if
INI.sections.beginswith('server')]
        serverlist.sort()  # If you want to keep them in order
        #
        # Loop over each server entry
        #
        for server_id in serverlist:
            name=INI.get(server_id, 'name')
            os=INI.get(server_id, 'os')
            self.append(id, name, os)

        return

    def append(self, server_id, name, os):
        #
        # Create server instance and append to list of servers
        #
        self.names.append(server_id)
        self.__dict__[name]=server(server_id, name, os)
        return

    def __iter__(self):
        return self

    def next(self):
        #
        # Try to get the next route
        #
        try: SERVER=self.names[self.next_index]
        except:
            self.next_index=0
            raise StopIteration
        #
        # Increment the index pointer for the next call
        #
        self.next_index+=1
        return SERVER

In your programt do something like:

import ConfigParser

INI=ConfigParser.ConfigParser()
INI.read(inifilepath)

SERVERS=servers(INI)

Now you can access

SERVERS.server_001.name
SERVERS.server_001.os

or call methods via

SERVERS.server_001.dosomething()

or you can easily loop over them

for SERVER in SERVERS:
    SERVER.dosomething()

or

print SERVERS.names

Code not tested, but I hope it helps.

Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.



"Doug Rosser" <da_rosser at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e08cd05f.0408020727.15ce4356 at posting.google.com...
> I'm writing a fairly complicated test framework and keeping
> configuration data inside ini files that are parsed at runtime by the
> ConfigParser module.
>
> For example, there would be a section similar to the following
>
> [servers]
> server1:{'hostname':'alpha','os':'posix'}
> server2:{'hostname':'beta','os':'win'}
>
> [clients]
> client1:{'hostname':'ichi','os':'posix'}
> client2:{'hostname':'ni','os':'posix'}
>
> As I read the configuration file, I don't actually create instances,
> but use the data to check "what's out there" to make sure the physical
> network environment has the bits and pieces required to run a
> particular test. This is a sort of "go/no-go" resource check.
>
> Assuming that everything is correct with the physical network
> environment, I want my testers to be able to refer to these resources
> in their python scripts by the names in the ini file, like so:
>
> myTest.checkResources() # Read the config file and associate names
> with real
>                         # life instances
>
> server1.doSomething()   # Note how I have cleverly saved myself from
> declaring
>                         # "server1" because the module myTest has
> inserted
>                         # it into the right namespace :-)
>
> Down to business: How do I write a module that can insert these names
> into the calling script's namespace at runtime? Is this even possible
> in Python?
>
> da rosser
> -- We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams --




From mwh at python.net  Mon Aug  9 09:39:17 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 13:39:17 GMT
Subject: Find out the file name of a module from inside the module?
References: <cf7u7d$npu$1@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <m3hdrcph17.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Andreas Neudecker <a.neudecker at uni-bonn.de> writes:

> Hi.
> 
> I know you can read the filename of a program as sys.argv[0]. But what
> about modules? Is there a similar way to find out the file name of a
> module (called by some other module or program) from inside this
> module?

Uh, your question makes my head spin a bit, but is __file__ what you
want?

>>> import os
>>> os.__file__
'/usr/lib/python2.2/os.pyc'

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Of the four project development variables - scope, cost, time and
  quality - quality isn't really a free variable.  The only possible
  values are "excellent" and "insanely excellent", depending on
  whether lives are at stake.              -- Kent Beck, XP Explained


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Tue Aug  3 09:53:21 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 08:53:21 -0500
Subject: Reasoning behind nested scope
References: <mailman.1087.1091532385.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4ZGdnTajMfhTBZLcRVn-qA@comcast.com>

Ever since my first Fortran class some 30+ years ago
I've always liked nested scopes.  If you want something
to be global, say so in your code.  In Fortran we used
common blocks, in Python you use a global directive.
Making everything global can lead to many name clashes
or you must have lots of unique variable names which
lengthens code and makes reuse more difficult.

Judicious use of OOP and globals seems to be the best
approach.  The more I learn/use OOP the less I seem
to require globals, but there are some times they
seem a preferable solution.

I don't believe there is any way to call nested
functions from outside their parent.  If you need
something like that, make the function a class and
make the nested function a method of the class.

HTH,
Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.


"Andy Baker" <andy at andybak.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.1087.1091532385.5135.python-list at python.org...
> Hi there,
>
> I'm learning Python at the moment and trying to grok the thinking behind
> it's scoping and nesting rules.
>
> I was googling for nested functions and found this Guido quote:
> (http://www.python.org/search/hypermail/python-1993/0343.html)
>
> "This is because nested function definitions don't have access to the
> local variables of the surrounding block -- only to the globals of the
> containing module. This is done so that lookup of globals doesn't
> have to walk a chain of dictionaries -- as in C, there are just two
> nested scopes: locals and globals (and beyond this, built-ins).
> Therefore, nested functions have only a limited use. This was a
> deliberate decision, based upon experience with languages allowing
> arbitraries nesting such as Pascal and both Algols -- code with too
> many nested scopes is about as readable as code with too many GOTOs.
> And, of course, in Python, the "proper" way is to use an
> object-oriented programming style"
>
> This sounds reasonable to me although nested scope always struck me as
more
> natural and intuitive ('Don't be surprising')
>
> I was wondering how the balance changed in favour of nested scope? What
> changed people's minds about 'readability' vs other factors? Are nested
> scopes still regarded as leading to spagetti code etc?
>
> (On a side note is there any way to call a nested function from outside
the
> parent? I was kind of expecting nested functions to be addressable through
> dot notation like methods are but I can see why that wouldn't be quite
> right. This might be a better question for the tutor list...)
>
> Andy Baker
>




From indigo at bitglue.com  Mon Aug 30 20:08:55 2004
From: indigo at bitglue.com (Phil Frost)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 20:08:55 -0400
Subject: python internal hacking: multitasking, interrupts, and the like
Message-ID: <20040831000855.GB2132@unununium.org>

A brief introduction for python-list: Unununium is an OS being developed
in Python wherever possible. This message is phrased for the Unununium
list, but as the questions are about hacking cPython, I have CCed
python-list as well. <http://unununium.org/>

As not everyone has heard yet, the current scheduler is insufficient for
our needs. The biggest restriction is that it allocates threads in pools
of 32, which becomes a problem when we need 8M * 32 stacks to accommodate
Python. Furthermore, statically allocating huge stacks is a problem
anyway, and we need to move to a multiple address space model.

To that end I've decided to get a new scheduler, and I want to do it in
Python. There are some things to consider:


Traditional multitasking is rather inefficient. Switching stacks and
blowing away the TLB cache on each process switch is a waste of time.
Two alternatives come to mind, Twisted's select() based reactor which is
a purely event based model, and stackless, which provides 'tasklets'.

The problem with Twisted is that it requires code to be rewritten in
terms of callbacks that happen in response to events. This works well
for applications designed that way, but we need a solution that works
for all applications, even those not in Python. Furthermore, scheduling
is coarse and purely cooperative, which is efficient for a single
application but does not scale to an entire system. However, it is
valuable to consider Twisted as a method for application-level
multitasking.

The problem with Stackless is that I can't find any information on it.
I've made inquiries to their mailing list about how tasklets are
scheduled and received no response. Perhaps someone knowledgeable has
subscribed since I last asked this question. If so, please share your
knowledge.


I'd like to use an existing solution, but that doesn't look like it will
happen. In that case I need to better understand Python's internals to
write a scheduler with it. I think if I were able to attach a python
routine to an interrupt handler, I could do with a minimal amount of
supporting C and assembly. However, I'm not sure how I can do this. The
problem is the infamous GIL; I don't know how I can acquire the lock
without multiple threads. Perhaps I don't need to acquire it if I'm
careful about what data I access, but I don't know enough about Python
to answer that. Further complicating the issue is that our build of
Python does not include thread support, because...well, there is none!


Please share your ideas.


From sjdevnull at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  9 23:01:05 2004
From: sjdevnull at yahoo.com (G. S. Hayes)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 20:01:05 -0700
Subject: decorators vs GIL
References: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>
	<mailman.1345.1091924284.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<96c2e938.0408081605.706f8ec7@posting.google.com>
	<cf8n4s$b7u$3@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>
Message-ID: <96c2e938.0408091819.2cd7b50d@posting.google.com>

Jarek Zgoda <jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl> wrote in message news:<cf8n4s$b7u$3 at atlantis.news.tpi.pl>...

> 

> Try GUI programming without using threads.



For the GUI tasks that I've done (mostly data visualization stuff for
doing sophisticated views and edits on SQL databases and music
visualization software for doing realtime FFT/spectrum
analyzer/oscilloscope kinds of things that move with the music) it's
been absolutely no problem to use real processes for GUI work.  Why
exactly do you not want protected memory for these things?



Lots of big, sophisticated GUIs are implemented without threads (e.g.
Netscape Navigator/Communicator).  It almost always winds up being
easier on the programmer and more responsive for the user in the long
run.



Threads often seem simple at the outset, but most of the time they
wind up being far more complex to program and debug than judicious use
of state machines and processes.   The major exception is libraries
(especially matrix-math kinds of things) where the internals are so
deeply entwined that it's not easy to figure out well-segmented subset
to put in shared memory.  Often (but not always) the amount of work it
takes to figure out all the locking issues is a lot higher than what
it would've taken to seperate the data structures out cleanly.  And
sometimes you have legitimate real-world needs that require threads
(most often libraries designed around that model or the two MAJOR
platforms, Java and Windows, without good multiprocess support, but
sometimes problem domains where you really NEED all kinds of crazy
shared memory data structures and segmenting them out doesn't buy you
much).


From tim.peters at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 21:59:25 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:59:25 -0400
Subject: My only complaint about Python
In-Reply-To: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <1f7befae04081918596bb5a873@mail.gmail.com>

[Darren Dale[
> ...
> Will the BDFL ever split with Visual Studio?

We should be clear here that this isn't Guido's decision.  What you
get on Windows is what you get on all other platforms in this respect:
 you get what volunteers show up to produce, year after year after
year.  So you get a fine Cygwin port from Jason Tishler, seemingly
toiling all alone, and you get contributions from at least four
developers who do use Visual Studio.

I don't think that's an accident.  Most open source jockeys who use
Windows do so because it's needed for their day job, and sticking with
an MS compiler is widely perceived in pointy-hair boss-land as the
safest course on Windows.  And it is a first-class IDE, so there's no
pragmatic reason to wrestle with yet another system when the day job
ends.  It takes real sweat to get comfortable with any C development
tool chain, and it takes years to become familiar wth each one's
maddening quirks.

I expect that's why Guido still uses Visual Studio when he's running
on Windows (and know it's why I do), but he actually hasn't had
anything to do with the Windows Python releases for years.  Things
Will Change when long-term volunteers show up and change them.


From joshg at brainstorminternet.net  Tue Aug 24 18:19:34 2004
From: joshg at brainstorminternet.net (Joshua Ginsberg)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 16:19:34 -0600
Subject: Inline Conditionals?
Message-ID: <1093385974.29259.146.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Is there any plan to include inline conditionals in Python? For example:

def isNegative(x):
	return x < 0 ? True : False

Thanks!

-jag

-- 
Joshua Ginsberg <joshg at brainstorminternet.net>
Brainstorm Internet Network Operations



From http  Mon Aug 30 13:55:18 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 10:55:18 -0700
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xzn4gwgea.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7a1o.1a5d2q410jsn2kN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xisb4xnh5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7c1a.tfdm14p3hclcN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xd61benm9.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj82n3.1ylkr3nierngmN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgpj1l$i0f$06$1@news.t-online.com>
	<7xd61b8uh2.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<mailman.2565.1093723065.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7x1xhqg3kb.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<4132cc9d$0$26202$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
Message-ID: <7x7jrgse7t.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

"Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> writes:
> I believe that import is the wrong point in time for checking
> signatures. You want to check the signature when the file is
> added to sys.path, i.e.
> 
> imp.verify_signature(filename)
> sys.path.append(filename)

There's something to be said for that.  Maybe you could append a tuple
to say how to verify signatures:

  sys.add_library((filename, 'certfile.pem'))

checks the sig and updates sys.path.  The whole notion of sys.path.append
(i.e. sys.path is just a naked Python list) is kludgy anyway.


From curzio.basso at unibas.ch  Wed Aug 11 04:17:09 2004
From: curzio.basso at unibas.ch (Curzio Basso)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:17:09 +0200
Subject: how to dispatch objects depending on their class
In-Reply-To: <cfap3b$3ag$06$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <4118dd4a$1@maser.urz.unibas.ch>
	<cfap3b$3ag$06$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <4119d60b@maser.urz.unibas.ch>

Peter Otten wrote:

> func_dict = {A: do_something_with_A, 
>              B: do_something_with_B}
> def func(obj):
>     func_dict[obj.__class__](obj)

ok. it tested and it works. thanks.

now I have only to check if the Visitor Pattern is not more appropriate.

cheers, curzio


From grv575 at hotmail.com  Thu Aug  5 01:14:16 2004
From: grv575 at hotmail.com (grv)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 05:14:16 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: numarray speed question
References: <953AD3D0Didtoken@128.91.2.239>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408040845120.27254-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <953C4DD4idtoken@128.91.2.239>

squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King) wrote in
<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408040845120.27254-100000 at ccc6.wpi.edu>: 

>On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, grv wrote:
>
>> So it is supposed to be very fast to have an array of say 5 million 
>> integers stored in a binary file and do
>> 
>> a = numarray.fromfile('filename', (2, 2, 2))
>> numarray.add(a, 9, a)
>> 
>> but how is that faster than reading the entire file into memory and
>> then having a for loop in C:
>>    (loop over range) {
>>       *p++ += 9      }
>> 
>> or is that essentially what's going on?
>
>That's essentially what's going on ;) The point of numarray isn't to be 
>hyper-fast, but to be as fast as the equivalent C (or Fortran, or 
>what-have-you) implementation.  In many cases, it's faster, because 
>numarray is designed with several speed hacks in mind, but it's nothing 
>you can't do (without a little work) in C.
>

Yes but see I'm interested in what speed hacks can actually be done to 
improve the above code.  I just don't see anything that can iterate and add 
over that memory region faster.


From dd55 at cornell.edu  Mon Aug  2 21:23:45 2004
From: dd55 at cornell.edu (Darren Dale)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 21:23:45 -0400
Subject: file IO
In-Reply-To: <cemnlj$cd1$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
References: <cemnlj$cd1$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <cempg2$d1e$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>

Darren Dale wrote:

> Can anyone explain this?
> 
> I have a file called old.dat with two lines:
> 
> 1
> 2
> 
> So it's 3 bytes long. I run the following:
> 
> import os
> f = file('old.dat',mode='r')
> olddata = f.readlines()
> f.close()
> 
> f = file('new.dat',mode='w')
> f.writelines(olddata)
> f.close()
> 
> new.dat is now 4 bytes long. ???
> 
> I need to reformat and then save some data.   Then I need to be able to 
> export the reformatted data to a spreadsheet-friendly format. But once I 
> have simply copied (trying to isolate the problem) the file using the 
> script above, my export function takes 10x as long as it would have with 
> the original file. And worse, the output has an extra newline character 
> added at the end of each line. Any suggestions would really be 
> appreciated, I am going a bit crazy trying to understand this.
> 
> Darren

One more bit of info. The extra newline character is added to output 
when I open the rewritten file like this:

import os
from mmap import mmap, ACCESS_READ
f = file('foobar.dat',mode='rU')
fd = f.fileno()
m = mmap(fd, os.fstat(fd).st_size, None, ACCESS_READ)
olddata = []
line = m.readline()
while line:
     olddata.append(line)
     line = m.readline()

using mmap to read the original datafile works. Any thoughts? I would 
really like to stick with mmap, my datafiles are the right size to 
really benefit.

Darren


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 28 10:02:59 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 16:02:59 +0200
Subject: Question about references/copies
References: <pan.2004.08.28.07.52.35.422774@gmx.de>
	<1gj870c.dzzhcpvby7ozN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<i1u0j09ik1id9uihf3jkdluhdr5jdurik3@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1gj8k1n.1vm9nm4y4avw0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
   ...
> I've felt strongly that this key piece of Python learning would be
> and much, much more inevitable if there was a (preferred) consistent
> way to ask for a copy, across objects - 

There is: type(obj)(obj) is (almost) always the best way to get a
(shallow) copy of copyable objects (won't work with noncopyables such as
files and other iterators, of course) of built-in types (whether
user-coded types support that popular convention is of course another
issue -- it depend on the author of each of these types).

If you know what type obj is, say a list; or, if don't really care
whether obj is (say) a list or a tuple or ... 'cause what you want is a
list anyway, then the normal way to spell this is of course list(obj).

> and/or that the copy module
> was something other than one of XXX importable moudles.

Well, it's Python-coded, so it seems quite natural to me that it be a
perfectly normal importable module.
 

> That dicts and lists (for example) have totally different syntax for
> copy, helps - I promise - to misdirect and confuse. I happen to

dict(mydict) and list(mylist) appear quite similar to me.  Sure,
mydict.copy() has stuck around from the dark ages and won't be even
considered for removal, due to backwards compatibility, until Python 3.0
some years from now; and mylist[:] also builds a shallow copy; but
despite their undeserved popularity these are not "the syntax for copy"
in my book, any more than, say, dict(mydict.iteritems()) for a dict or
[x for x in mylist] for a list, even though THOSE happen to make shallow
copies too (and I HAVE seen them used in code intended as "serious").

> consider this entire area a significant wart. I think I am entitled to
> consider it so. 

Given the apparent dearth of information in the matter, you may be
right.  I'll do my best to keep clarifying my viewpoint in my books...

> I had tried to bring this up to in various forums, most particularly
> edu-sig - where I thought this knid of discussion might be of
> particular significance - and was rather rudely asked by Guido to take
> it elsewhere.  Where? not clear.

Not sure why edu-sig would be more appropriate than any generic Python
forum, actually.  But not particularly inappropriate either, I think.


Alex


From telcom_sage at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  3 21:42:24 2004
From: telcom_sage at yahoo.com (Brian Leair)
Date: 3 Aug 2004 18:42:24 -0700
Subject: Rebinding variable, despite global statement
References: <aeca1d18.0408021846.b2a04cc@posting.google.com>
	<cenbh4$opk$03$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <aeca1d18.0408031742.48225f62@posting.google.com>

> > I am using "from MyModule import *", (yes, yes, I know)
> > 
> > In the code that performs the import, I have a function that has the
> > statement
> > "global g_my_var". Despite this, when I try to assign to g_my_var it
> > appears I am rebound to a different object.
> 
> you have two independent bindings to the same object. You can think of it as
> the two-step process
> 
> import MyModule
> g_my_var = MyModule.g_my_var
> # del MyModule
> 
> That you are using the same name in both __main__ and MyModule has no effect
> on the general structure. With

Ah, thanks. This makes more sense now.

My module has a list of symbols that are availabel to it, the module's
dict. The keyword "global" is just a hint to assign to the symbol
stored in the module's dict instead of the function. I also didn't
quite realize that the "from X import " is really just adding entries
in my module's dict. In effect making copies. The g_my_var gets an
inital value from the import, but I really have MyPorgram.g_my_var and
MyModule.g_my_var and these names are independent.

A coworker commented that if g_my_var was bound to a modifiable object
(list, class, etc.) then the changes made to that object would be seen
in both places.

Thanks again.


From karlehr at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 15:45:45 2004
From: karlehr at gmail.com (Karl Ehr)
Date: 5 Aug 2004 12:45:45 -0700
Subject: intermittent smtp module problems (with sendmail) in python
	2.2.1
References: <bd764350.0408041023.35ee518b@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408041442380.14974-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <bd764350.0408051145.3a1dcdb7@posting.google.com>

Christopher T King <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote in message news:<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408041442380.14974-100000 at ccc9.wpi.edu>...
> On 4 Aug 2004, Karl Ehr wrote:
> 
> > I have written the following simple program to monitor a single URL,
> > and notify me via email whenever this URL changes.    Intermittently,
> > I raise the following exception:
> > 
> > smtplib.SMTPServerDisconnected: Connection unexpectedly closed
> 
> This is probably happening because of a timeout on the SMTP server.  Try 
> moving this line:
> 
> > server = smtplib.SMTP('localhost') # server to relay smtp through for
> 
> To right in front of where you use it:
> 
> >     server.set_debuglevel(1)
> >     server.sendmail(sourceAddress, emailAddress, message)
> >     server.quit()
> 
> the SMTP() constructor doesn't just set up a connection (and open it on 
> .sendmail()); it opens the connection when it's called and leaves it open 
> until you call .quit() (or delete the object).

Aha!!   Thank you this works fine now... I'll keep that snag in mind
when referencing other "external" apps in the future...


From simonb at NOTTHISBIT.webone.com.au  Thu Aug 12 08:43:35 2004
From: simonb at NOTTHISBIT.webone.com.au (Simon Burton)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:43:35 +0100
Subject: graphical object browser?
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.12.12.43.34.428248@NOTTHISBIT.webone.com.au>


I'd like a little app to let me explore live python objects graphically,
with a tree view, say. It would be most useful when debugging a live
program that has just blown an exception, or surfing through pickle
data that needs to be upgraded.

There is something like this in the /examples/ide directory of pygtk, but
alas, it hasn't been updated to pygtk-2.0.

If nothing shows up, I'll write one myself and post here.

bye,

Simon.



From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Aug 26 17:21:21 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 23:21:21 +0200
Subject: MSI Installer Problem: can't install 2.4a2 on new install of
 Win2kSP2
In-Reply-To: <sfsri058cggdn56usp887tcrus25sgdcsv@4ax.com>
References: <vnipi0ldsgchqqiti1q19qtd5d70ju17p0@4ax.com>
	<412d7dcd$0$26184$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<sfsri058cggdn56usp887tcrus25sgdcsv@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <412e5452$0$24835$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

Richard Hanson wrote:
> (I have much to learn in writing concise posts, alas -- I appreciate
> your patience.)

That is indeed the problem. I stopped reading after the first paragraph.
I'm still uncertain whether you are talking about the original problem
(failure to install the Python msi file), or about the second problem
(MSI file installs fine, but IDLE fails to work) in this message.

> I'm at a loss, still. Surely, something I had previously installed in
> my own prior installation silently installed something needed for the
> Python 2.4a2 install *other than the MSI Installer 2.0* and is
> currently missing from my reinstall...?

Why do you think so?

> I'm going to try to redownload the Python install file (mine is
> filesize: 10,691,072 bytes) even though it "seems" fine -- as I'm
> running out of ideas.

If the installation completed with the dialog stating it completed
successfully, it probably did complete successfully indeed.
If you still see a problem, it is likely that this problem is
unrelated to the installation. However, I lost track as to what
this problem might be, and how you have tried to narrow it down.

Regards,
Martin


From mwh at python.net  Fri Aug 27 08:21:38 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:21:38 GMT
Subject: Static properties
References: <mailman.2426.1093530829.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj5e8n.xujsah4chw0gN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgmia0$qfc$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<1gj657x.8jtu0f1hovhhvN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m3r7psg4a5.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:

> I think (I hope I'm wrong) that to catch 'Path.foo = something' you
> do have to use a custom metaclass

You're right.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  /* I'd just like to take this moment to point out that C has all
     the expressive power of two dixie cups and a string.
   */                       -- Jamie Zawinski from the xkeycaps source


From jerf at jerf.org  Fri Aug 20 16:10:22 2004
From: jerf at jerf.org (Jeremy Bowers)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:10:22 GMT
Subject: Regular expression guaranteed to fail
References: <yyrjacwqdrlk.fsf@pc156.maths.bris.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.20.16.10.15.781296@jerf.org>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:35:18 +0000, Des Small wrote:
> The question is, what regular expression should correspond to the
> empty set?

I would return compiled RE objects instead of strings, and in the empty
case, return a class you write that matches the interface of a compiled RE
but returns what you like. Something like:

def NeverMatch(object):
	def match(*args, **kwargs):
		return None

def set2re(s):
	if s: return re.compile("|".join([e for e in s]))
	else: return NeverMatch()


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Mon Aug 23 02:07:21 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 06:07:21 GMT
Subject: J2 decorator grammar
References: <mailman.2130.1093134487.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2orckjFdtljaU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <tQfWc.9697$Jn5.3584@fe1.texas.rr.com>

"Peter Maas" <crgre.znnf at hgvybt.qr> wrote in message
news:2orckjFdtljaU1 at uni-berlin.de...
> Robert Brewer schrieb:
> > Michael Sparks wrote:
> > For that reason (and others), I plan not to promote any form of the word
> > "decorate". We can start having that conversation now if you want. ;)
>
> What about
>
> with:
>      return ...
>      accept ...
>      classmethod
> def func():
>      <function body>
>
> "using" instead of "with" would be equally satisfactory for me. I don't
> like "decorate" because it sounds like "attaching some bells and whistles"
> or "making it look pretty" which isn't adequate for the meaning of this
> syntax.
>
> -- 
> Peter Maas, Aachen, Germany, Tel +49-241-38200 e-mail crgre.znnf at hgvybt.qr

"using" is tolerable for me, although it will be confusing for C++'ers who
will equate it with "namespace", and C#'ers who will equate it with "import"
(DLL).

As stated before, "with" and "as" are non-starters, "with" is reserved for
future use, "as" sounds too much like "rename".

"declare" is too broad a concept, and should be reserved for a time if/when
variable typing gets added to Python.

We should NOT select a keyword with an embedded '_' character.  I think
pre_def had been proposed at one point.  '_' is awkward to get to on some
international keyboards, IIRC.  (Of course, Python already uses scads of
'_'s elsewhere, so those people are out of luck.)

I'm also not keen on all caps keywords - some developers use all caps as an
indicator of defined constants, plus they are almost as eye-jarring as '@'.


I'm still partial to some of the prepositional options, or some truncated
words:

qual - I would hope that "qual" might get a second look.  The items in the
decorator suite can be thought of as qualifiers, or qualities of the
following function.  (Hmm, for our Spanish-speaking colleagues, "qual"
translates as "which", which might imply a selection from among the
decorators.  Boo.  Scratch "qual".)

per - Nice neutral Latin preposition; short, easy to type; used in "ad astra
per aspera" which is "to the stars through hope"

per:
    staticmethod
    memoize
    synchronize
def foo():
    pass

You can even read it, sort of: "per staticmethod def[ine] foo".


by - perhaps even too short, wont stand out when used


I'm liking "per" or "using".

-- Paul




From richie at entrian.com  Fri Aug 27 08:24:03 2004
From: richie at entrian.com (Richie Hindle)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:24:03 +0100
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <cgn2gn$qri$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<412cf775$0$11496$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net>
	<cgl37h$6ss$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2510.1093600577.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgn2gn$qri$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <ad9ui0157jicmfgcuuquu1g2qdd9thgmgj@4ax.com>


[Michael]
> I'd encourage anyone who's interested in python's
> advancement to do the same, to be honest. The codebase is one of the
> cleanest I've encountered and fairly easy to get started with, and it's
> been a pleasure to work on.

Seconded.  I've been there and done that (implemented the Set Next Statement
command for Python debuggers), and was pleasantly surprised at how clean and
comprehensible the code was - even in performance-sensitive areas like
ceval.c.

> We have a (small) allocation in our time for "bright ideas" regarding
> things that'll help the BBC in ways outside normal projects, and help
> further tools etc we use.

A good policy.  Nice to see that the Beeb's suits can think outside the box
(no pun intended 8-)

-- 
Richie Hindle
richie at entrian.com



From unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom  Sat Aug 28 08:32:41 2004
From: unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom (Michel Claveau - abstraction méta-galactique non triviale en fuite perpétuelle.)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:32:41 +0200
Subject: simple compiled languages?
References: <7xzn4fu188.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <cgpu24$oqi$1@news-reader1.wanadoo.fr>

I know one ; but it do not make the coffee. Sorry...






From xslom03 at vse.cz  Tue Aug 17 04:21:27 2004
From: xslom03 at vse.cz (Martin Slouf)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:21:27 +0200
Subject: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xf3'
In-Reply-To: <4121A8DA.30802@v.loewis.de>
References: <4120F820.4000703@fusiondementes.com>
	<mailman.1775.1092723467.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4121A8DA.30802@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <20040817082127.GA5233@barbucha.martin.net>

thank you for reply, great info! it helped me to better understand it;
but of course, some additional questions have risen.

maybe some of those question/comments may seem stupid (ie. clear), but
im new to python and i want to assure myself i get it right; thx for
patience.

> There is an alternative, if the print is a debug print:
> 
> - print a repr() of the unicode object instead of
>   the unicode object itself. This will work on all
>   terminals, and show hex escapes of non-ASCII characters.

just to make sure:

override the object's __repr__(self) method to st. like:

class my_string(string):
    def __repr__(self)
	tmp = unicode(self.attribute1 + " " + self.attribute2)
	return tmp

and use 'my_string' class without any worries instead of classical
string?

> 
> No. unicode(text) uses the system default encoding
> (sys.getdefaultencoding()) which normally is ASCII.
> 
> Printing a Unicode string to a terminal should work fine if the terminal
> is properly configured. What that means depends on your operating
> system.

my system is debian GNU/Linux stable, im using it for a very, very long
time, though i did not changed any terminal settings but the very
basics.  My locales are properly set, im using LC_* environment
variables to set default locale to czech environment with ISO-8859-2
charset.  Terminal is capable of displaying 8bit charsets, im not sure
about unicode charsets -- never tried, never needed.  All other
locale-sensitive programms are satisfied. (ie. java interpretter -- this
should be much like python :)

guess in germany it is quite the same, maybe ISO-8859-1 is preferred

example output from my system:

>>> import locale
>>> loc = locale.getdefaultlocale()
>>> loc
['cs_CZ', 'ISO8859-2']

so i guess this is ok.

but the problem maybe in my 'site.py' where setting encoding
according to my locale is done in a code like this:

if 0:
    # Enable to support locale aware default string encodings.
    import locale
    loc = locale.getdefaultlocale()
    if loc[1]:
        encoding = loc[1]

so i guess it is never done :(

did you yourself changed it? did you think this is the 'portable
solution'? i guess not -- another system, another locale, maybe being in
ascii is the best.

> 
> >
> >	* why is that behaviour? -- if you search google you get
> >thousands of errors like this -- with no proper solutions i must add
> 
> There is a proper solution. Unfortunately, very similar yet different
> problems cause the same error message, and each problem has a different
> proper solution:
> 

well, if a piece of information like you gave to me was contained in
standard python documentation, probably there will be less
misunderstanding about this issue.

> - A Unicode error is raised when trying to combine a Unicode string
>   and a byte string, if the byte string contains non-ASCII characters,
>   e.g.
> 
>    u"Martin v. " + "L?wis"
> 
>   The proper solution is to convert the second string into a Unicode
>   object, e.g. through
> 
>            unicode("L?wis", "iso-8859-1")
> 

if i use 
#! /usr/bin/env python
# -*- coding: UTF-8 -*-
at the begginnig of my every script, the example above still has to 
be converted -- because of the iso-8859-1 you use in "L?wis"?

what would change if i use
#! /usr/bin/env python
# -*- coding: ISO-8859-1 -*-
?

can i ommit the conversion (ie. is it done automatically for me as if
i write
u"Martin v. " + unicode("L?wis", "ISO-8859-1")
)?

> - A unicode error is raised when a Unicode string is printed to
>   a terminal. The proper solution is that the system administrator
>   or the user should properly administer the locale, so that Python
>   knows what characters the terminal can print. For characters that
>   are then still non-printable, repr() is the proper solution.

see above for comments on my setting.  if you have done such a
customization (and it differs from mine) and you have experience with
linux, may i ask you for recommendations?

> 
> - A unicode error is raised when a library does not support Unicode
>   for some reason. The proper solution is to fix the library. A
>   proper work-around is to explicitly convert Unicode strings into
>   the encoding that the library expects.
> 

dont understand -- which library? you meant for example the ogg vorbis
c-library when used with python bindings? -- in that case, what can be
done by me as a developer? -- to know what encoding is used and do the
tricky things i did -- now properly understood:

1. convert from "unknown" to unicode 
tmp = unicode("string", "library-charset-specification")

2. print it like
print tmp.encode("my-terminal-charset-specification")

question: 

library-charset-specification can be ommited if i specify it in a
comment at the very begginning of a script (as i guessed above) -- or
my-terminal-charset-specification can be ommitted if specied in comment 
-- or can i ommit both if equal?

if im about to use the __repr__(self) method, i would do the conversion
inside that method and return tmp, as i tried above, right?

> 
> >	* i was looking in site.py and there is deleted the
> >sys.setdefaultencoding() function, but from the comments i do
> >not know why -- you know it? why is user not allowed to change the
> >default encoding? it seems reasonable to me if he/she could do that.
> 
> Yes, but that would not be a proper solution. It would mean that your
> script now only works on your system, and fails on a system where
> the default encoding has not been changed, or has been changed to
> something else. Users should use a proper solution instead.

i thought that every programmer could call his
sys.setdefaultencoding() method at the start of the script to set it to
whatever he needs. it should work on every system that has proper
encoding files. (though in site.py is a comment on MS indows -- it
breaks that rule:)

> 
> Regards,
> Martin

once again, thank you a lot.

Regards,
Martin (also :)


From Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com  Thu Aug  5 12:48:57 2004
From: Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com (Ames Andreas (MPA/DF))
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 18:48:57 +0200
Subject: And now to sth. completely different: Forget about decorators,
	think cgi.FieldStorage
Message-ID: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA1B@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>

Hi,

is it fair to assume that after executing the following code

fs = cgi.FieldStorage(fp = somefile, keep_blank_values = 1)
stream = fs.file or StringIO(fs.value)

stream is a seekable copy of somefile, i. e. stream.seek(0) works AND
stream's contents are the same a somefile's?  The docstring seems to
suggest that but I wanted to be certain.


tia,

andreas



From reynirhs at mi.is  Thu Aug 26 22:11:04 2004
From: reynirhs at mi.is (Reynir Stefánsson)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 02:11:04 +0000
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.SOL.4.58.0408251722510.568@zaphod.rite-group.com>
Message-ID: <jh5ti01keef8ov2kjpdg0hp9nfi0oj45ma@4ax.com>

So spake Rich Teer:

>On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Xah Lee wrote:
>
>> Did you know that throughout history there's this thing called cult?
>
>I think you're getting confused with the Blue ?yster Cult.
>Don't Fear the Reaper - great song.

And then there's this crazy little thing called love...
-- 
Reynir Stef?nsson (reynirhs at mi.is)


From http  Mon Aug 23 20:16:31 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 17:16:31 -0700
Subject: Getting at the bits of a 32-bit integer
References: <85b54e91.0408231552.75f85727@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <7xisb94cgw.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

jacobsmail at postmark.net (Jacob H) writes:
> There are plenty of unused bits to the left of the number itself. If I
> wanted to use some of these bits as true/false flags, how would I go
> about it? In Python, how do I write code that gets at the leftmost
> byte, or the third bit from the left of the set of 32, or the
> rightmost byte plus the bit to its left, etc...

It's not really in the Python spirit, but in general you can set the
nth bit (from the right, starting at n=0) of variable x by saying:

   x |= (1 << n)

You can clear it with

  x &= ~(1 << n)

and you can test it with

   if x & (1 << n):
     do whatever


From jfl at list.idg.dk  Wed Aug 25 10:49:47 2004
From: jfl at list.idg.dk (Jacob Friis Larsen)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:49:47 +0200
Subject: Python freelancer
Message-ID: <412CA70B.5090804@list.idg.dk>

Where do I find Python freelancers?

I have an open Python project on Sharksforum.com.

Thanks,
Jacob


From egbert.list at hccnet.nl  Mon Aug 23 13:56:34 2004
From: egbert.list at hccnet.nl (Egbert Bouwman)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:56:34 +0200
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed204082302035e4091ee@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408230004350.22879-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>
	<mailman.2175.1093233838.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<q9OdnRDkR-VsMbTcRVn-pw@lmi.net>
	<e69d3ed204082302035e4091ee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040823175634.GA3456@mirk.lan>

For me the keyword introduces an announcement about the function
to be defined next. So why not say 'announce', followed by the name
of the function about which you are anouncing something, for instance:

    announce bar:
        staticmethod 
        accepts(int, str) 
        returns(str) 
        published(True)
    def bar(count, input):
        return input * count

The function name after announce serves two purposes:
- it makes the program a lot more readable
- it makes it possible to put this announcement somewhere else,
  not immediately before the function.
  However doing this doesn't look like a good idea.
egbert  
-- 
Egbert Bouwman - Keizersgracht 197 II - 1016 DS  Amsterdam - 020 6257991
========================================================================


From rlbuvel at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 08:15:06 2004
From: rlbuvel at gmail.com (Ray Buvel)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 12:15:06 GMT
Subject: drop into the interpreter
In-Reply-To: <MoPSc.848$PG2.811334@twister.tampabay.rr.com>
References: <MoPSc.848$PG2.811334@twister.tampabay.rr.com>
Message-ID: <eh2Tc.92478$vN3.34773@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>

Hoang Do wrote:
> is there a facility to inspect the run-time of a python script?
> Essentially, it would execute a script to a set specific point and then drop
> into the interpreter.  Something like a "Stop" or "Break"?

This can be done fairly easily by creating a module (lets call it 
interactive) with the following code in it.
-----------
import sys,os

def debug_exception(type, value, traceback):
     # Restore redirected standard I/O
     sys.stdin = sys.__stdin__
     sys.stdout = sys.__stdout__
     sys.stderr = sys.__stderr__

     # Kick the interpreter into interactive mode and call the original
     # exception handler.
     os.environ['PYTHONINSPECT'] = '1'
     sys.__excepthook__(type, value, traceback)

sys.excepthook = debug_exception
-----------

Now if you import this module and raise an unhandled exception, you will 
be in interactive mode.  In other words, I think the following script 
does what you are asking for.

-----------
import interactive

raise RuntimeError('Interactive Mode')
-----------

This also has the advantage that if there are no unhandled exceptions in 
your script, the script runs and terminates normally.

Enjoy,
Ray Buvel


From cmkleffner at gmx.de  Mon Aug 23 10:19:15 2004
From: cmkleffner at gmx.de (cmkl)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 07:19:15 -0700
Subject: python a jdbc
References: <slrnchv42a.278.gregor.jan@ins1.opera.com>
	<2004082022464216807%webstuff@fluidiccom>
	<slrncihi02.5t8.gregor.jan@ins1.opera.com>
Message-ID: <3b091a1c.0408230619.45a92254@posting.google.com>

Jan Gregor <gregor.jan at NOSPAMquick.cz> wrote in message news:<slrncihi02.5t8.gregor.jan at ins1.opera.com>...
> Because many things - wxWindows (java binding is poor and java gui's
> aren't good enough), slow startup of jython (in development time) ...
> 
> In article <2004082022464216807%webstuff at fluidiccom>, J wrote:
> > On 2004-08-15 12:33:14 -0400, Jan Gregor <gregor.jan at NOSPAMquick.cz> said:
> > 
> >> Is there some to use jdbc driver with python ? I thought about
> >> communication between java process and python throught sockets. Simple
> >> test worked fine.
> >> 
> >> Jan
> > 
> > Why not use jython if it is a java app that you want a hook a python 
> > interpeter into the application.
> >

Have you tried spiro?

   http://www.freenet.org.nz/python/spiro/

Regards

Carl


From tzot at sil-tec.gr  Sat Aug 14 09:57:46 2004
From: tzot at sil-tec.gr (Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:57:46 +0300
Subject: !wtf ellipsis
References: <pan.2004.08.13.12.54.24.553466@yahoo.com>
	<voiqh0p0ce6ui77498vqdabcrl7asro33i@4ax.com>
	<411D5046.B5D16F02@alcyone.com>
Message-ID: <g46sh059oni73gj3814dcr489gmq4ee18g@4ax.com>

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:35:34 -0700, rumours say that Erik Max Francis
<max at alcyone.com> might have written:

>Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou wrote:
>
>> Peter provided a link answering your questions.  As a side note, I
>> have
>> used Ellipsis instead of None as a very handy last item put in queues
>> in
>> threaded programs (after all, "ellipsis" means "absence" or "lack" in
>> English :)  Thus I avoid creating dummy classes to mark the end of
>> data...

[Erik]
>But as a sentinel, why would it be superior to None?

I wouldn't choose the word "superior to", rather "more fitting than"
IMO; that's because I associate None with "no value", and Ellipsis with
"end of values".

PS Irrelevant, but I just thought that it's probably too late to ask
whether any Pythonistas are here in Athens for the Olympic games, in
order to buy them a beer or another drink of their choice :)
-- 
TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best,
"Tssss!" --Brad Pitt as Achilles in unprecedented Ancient Greek


From python-url at phaseit.net  Mon Aug  9 09:08:08 2004
From: python-url at phaseit.net (Peter Otten)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 13:08:08 GMT
Subject: Dr. Dobb's Python-URL! - weekly Python news and links (Aug  9)
Message-ID: <cf7qsc$ttp$1@lairds.us>

QOTW: "That's a healthy relationship with a language, I feel, when the
language and me are struggling with the same problems." - Harald Massa

"Fight the trend to add silly disclaimers everywhere!" - GvR


    Tim Peters helps Kenneth McDonnald over the hurdle of initializing
    subclasses of an immutable type like str.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=mailman.1322.1091854312.5135.python-list%40python.org
    
    Jeff Epler digs into the C Source to find out why overriding file.write()
    has no effect on the print statement.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=7d04h0dskqbdf2j1f8429726j766mnhrhj%404ax.com
    
    You could assure Zeljko Vrba, the "Perl expert wanting to learn Python",
    that he has already made the hardest step in the new direction.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?c2coff=1&threadm=slrncguga2.fcp.mordor%40fly.srk.fer.hr
    
    ---
    "@ looks like a friendly little womb, with a happy little birth canal,
    out of which is born a single pure expression" - Tim Peters
    
    The appearance of decorators - a mechanism for wrapping functions and
    adding attributes to them - in the second alpha of Python 2.4 stirs
    a heated discussion.
    
    Many do not like the introduction of a new symbol, "@" aka "pie", for
    decoration, or see the chosen one as too "visually dense" (obtrusive)
    - or just plain ugly. Barry Warsaw weighs alternative symbols.
        http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047133.html
    
    Christopher T. King argues that the new feature is trying to be all things
    to all people.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.LNX.4.44.0408050856390.31290-100000%40ccc9.wpi.edu
    
    Steven Bethard explores the option space, i. e. all aspects of
    decorator syntax that can be chosen independently.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6%40posting.google.com
    
    Of course the discussion has been going on among Python's developers
    for a while and the PEP maintainers who where left behind at some point
    are struggling hard to update it to the current state of affairs.
        http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0318.html
        http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/PythonDecorators
    
    I cannot close this section without at least one use-case, so have a
    look at Michele Simionato's multimethod enhancement, building on code by
    Howard Stearns and - decorators.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=4edc17eb.0408080531.6f8963f9%40posting.google.com
    
    (Now be prepared for a more down-to-earth Python-URL next week)
    ---
    
    Let's go back to the "other" pie. Even the most peaceful Pythoneer
    will ponder "pie-decorating" the author of this short pie-thon
    report. It's fun, though.
        http://www.ntk.net/2004/08/06/
    
    
========================================================================
Everything Python-related you want is probably one or two clicks away in
these pages:

    Python.org's Python Language Website is the traditional
    center of Pythonia
        http://www.python.org
    Notice especially the master FAQ
        http://www.python.org/doc/FAQ.html

    PythonWare complements the digest you're reading with the
    marvelous daily python url
         http://www.pythonware.com/daily  
    Mygale is a news-gathering webcrawler that specializes in (new)
    World-Wide Web articles related to Python.
         http://www.awaretek.com/nowak/mygale.html 
    While cosmetically similar, Mygale and the Daily Python-URL
    are utterly different in their technologies and generally in
    their results.

    comp.lang.python.announce announces new Python software.  Be
    sure to scan this newsgroup weekly.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python.announce

    Brett Cannon continues the marvelous tradition established by 
    Andrew Kuchling and Michael Hudson of intelligently summarizing
    action on the python-dev mailing list once every other week.
	http://www.python.org/dev/summary/

    The Python Package Index catalogues packages.
        http://www.python.org/pypi/

    The somewhat older Vaults of Parnassus ambitiously collects references
    to all sorts of Python resources.
        http://www.vex.net/~x/parnassus/   

    Much of Python's real work takes place on Special-Interest Group
    mailing lists
        http://www.python.org/sigs/

    The Python Business Forum "further[s] the interests of companies
    that base their business on ... Python."
	http://www.python-in-business.org

    The Python Software Foundation (PSF) has replaced the Python
    Consortium as an independent nexus of activity.  It has official
    responsibility for Python's development and maintenance. 
        http://www.python.org/psf/
    Among the ways you can support PSF is with a donation.
        http://www.python.org/psf/donate.html

    Cetus collects Python hyperlinks.
        http://www.cetus-links.org/oo_python.html

    Python FAQTS
        http://python.faqts.com/

    The Cookbook is a collaborative effort to capture useful and
    interesting recipes.
	http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python

    Among several Python-oriented RSS/RDF feeds available are
	http://www.python.org/channews.rdf
	http://bootleg-rss.g-blog.net/pythonware_com_daily.pcgi
	http://python.de/backend.php
    For more, see
	http://www.syndic8.com/feedlist.php?ShowMatch=python&ShowStatus=all
    The old Python "To-Do List" now lives principally in a
    SourceForge reincarnation.
        http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?atid=355470&group_id=5470&func=browse
        http://python.sourceforge.net/peps/pep-0042.html
     
    The online Python Journal is posted at pythonjournal.cognizor.com.
    editor at pythonjournal.com and editor at pythonjournal.cognizor.com
    welcome submission of material that helps people's understanding
    of Python use, and offer Web presentation of your work.

    *Py: the Journal of the Python Language*
        http://www.pyzine.com

    Archive probing tricks of the trade:
        http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python&num=100
        http://groups.google.com/groups?meta=site%3Dgroups%26group%3Dcomp.lang.python.*

Previous - (U)se the (R)esource, (L)uke! - messages are listed here:
  http://www.ddj.com/topics/pythonurl/         
  http://purl.org/thecliff/python/url.html (dormant)
or
  http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_q=+Python-URL!&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python


Suggestions/corrections for next week's posting are always welcome.
E-mail to <Python-URL at phaseit.net> should get through.

To receive a new issue of this posting in e-mail each Monday morning
(approximately), ask <claird at phaseit.net> to subscribe.  Mention
"Python-URL!".


-- The Python-URL! Team--

Dr. Dobb's Journal (http://www.ddj.com) is pleased to participate in and
sponsor the "Python-URL!" project.




From max at alcyone.com  Wed Aug 25 17:56:05 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:56:05 -0700
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
Message-ID: <412D0AF5.1DA34903@alcyone.com>

Martin DeMello wrote:

> Yes, but why? I mean, is there either an advantage to returning None
> or
> some inherent danger in returning self?

The "inherent danger" is that the user might think that it returns a new
object rather than mutating the original.  Returning a new object vs.
mutating the argument and returning None is merely a convention, but
it's one used consistently in the Python standard library.

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ Trying to mend our hearts in vain
    -- Sandra St. Victor


From spam at no.thanks  Sun Aug  8 07:54:45 2004
From: spam at no.thanks (aum)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 23:54:45 +1200
Subject: ANN: hashcash module
Message-ID: <awoRc.10617$N77.486632@news.xtra.co.nz>

Hi fellow snake-charmers,

Announcing a simple pure-python hashcash implementation.

http://www.freenet.org.nz/python/hashcash

Enjoy :)


From http  Thu Aug 26 22:55:50 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 19:55:50 -0700
Subject: key storage
References: <1093569139.412e8a738462b@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
	<412E8E53.20203@harvee.org>
	<mailman.2491.1093572685.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <7x7jrl9tmx.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Ajay <abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au> writes:
> the MIT paper mentions including HMAC's in the cookie and so on. the
> question still is - how are the keys stored? HMAC's require a key, as do
> digital signatures. how are all these keys stored in a secure manner on
> the server? obviously they's be encrypted but then the key used for
> encrypting the above key - how is that stored?

Well, just what are you trying to protect?  Access to the application
and its data?  What happens if you just put the key in a disk file?
If someone can get at it, can't they also get at the rest of the data,
so the key is no longer helping protect that data?  Who are you trying
to keep the key secret from?


From indigo at bitglue.com  Thu Aug 19 12:58:25 2004
From: indigo at bitglue.com (Phil Frost)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:58:25 -0400
Subject: get last two in a length of unknown length?
In-Reply-To: <cg1494$lvr$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>
References: <cg1494$lvr$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20040819165825.GA27745@unununium.org>

A negative index counts from the end, so:

l = [0,1,2,3,4]
l[-1] == 4

this works for slices too:

l[-2:] == [3,4]

On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 03:45:47AM +0100, M. Clift wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I have a list of varying length. Would someone know the way to get the last
> two values for this? I can see how this is done with a list that I know the
> length of, but not one thats generated by user input.
> 
> Thanks for any help


From ville at spammers.com  Tue Aug 31 03:27:19 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 10:27:19 +0300
Subject: Intelisence (and type inference)
References: <43SYc.121080$UTP.113615@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<ch0srg$87o@odah37.prod.google.com>
	<mailman.2650.1093934498.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <du7brgrzs14.fsf_-_@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Andrei" == Andrei  <project5 at redrival.net> writes:

    Andrei> Jonathan  Ellis <jbellis <at> gmail.com> writes:
    >> > Is there any inelisence IDE (like visual studio) for python?

    Andrei> It's harder to do this for Python than for less dynamic
    Andrei> languages. The most

Yes, it's non-trivial, but why is it so hard? I mean, what's the
killer problem about type inference? I'm not talking about Starkiller
level type inference (which has to be just right, because the code is
actually executed) but the kind that would support IDEs for developers
that use python in a reasonably standard way:

- Modules are imported from standard places

- No methods are inserted dynamically

- Ambiguous methods are annotated somehow (e.g decorators ;-).

- etc.

In cases where a name can be bound to instances of multiple different
classes, suggest all the methods for completion:

>From Foo:

foo(k,g)
foo2(x,y)

>From Bar:

bar()
bar2(x,c=45)

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From ville at spammers.com  Sat Aug 21 17:54:12 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 00:54:12 +0300
Subject: backward compatibility?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408212200050.1131-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <du7zn4ognsr.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Peter" == Peter Kleiweg <in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid> writes:

    Peter> So how serious are plans to remove things from Python, like
    Peter> lambda and map and reduce? I am just starting out with Python

Not very. Talking about it is mostly a way to steer newbies away from
them towards superior approaches (list comprehensions and generator
expressions). Even if the features were removed, they could be
trivially implemented by yourself in python so none of your code would
break. Well, noe lambda but I don't believe it will be removed - too
much code depends on it.

    Peter> and if there is a danger that the programs I write today
    Peter> won't work next year, I rather invest my time in another
    Peter> language. I might try Ruby, or stick with Perl.

Well, if you care about running your code on the new interpreters few
years from now (nobody is going to force you to upgrade - some poor
tossers still use python 1.5.2), Python is the best bet from the
languages you mention. Ruby is going to break compatibility big time
soon (or so I've heard - big rewrite or sth), and perl is going
through the perl6 pains. Python is extremely cautious about breaking
backwards compatibility, sometimes even too cautious for my taste...

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From cousinstanley at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 21 20:17:33 2004
From: cousinstanley at hotmail.com (Cousin Stanley)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 00:17:33 GMT
Subject: I would really like the code for a dome in vpython
References: <8f17f4bc.0408181349.46c34b2@posting.google.com>
	<clp7i09uubansi27ha70eblegbdhse18g3@4ax.com>
	<8f17f4bc.0408201816.13d537a6@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <2oq70tFdejl8U1@uni-berlin.de>

>> .... 
>> http://www.applied-synergetics.com/ashp/html/domes.html
>> ....

> I went to the link you gave but the link to download the software is broken. :(
>

Ali .... 

  You might try the following link 
  for  dome/windome  software from Synergetics ....
  
      http://www.applied-synergetics.com/ashp/html/windome_readme.html

  This is a 6 frame animated GIF I put together back in 2001
  using this software which shows full geodesic spheres
  constructed from an icosahedron base ....      
        
      http://fastq.com/~sckitching/Icosa_1_thru_6.htm
      [ 940 KB ]      

  The sphere becomes more and more rounded
  as the division frequency of the icosahedron
  increases ....
        
      
-- 
Cousin Stanley
Human Being
Phoenix, Arizona


From fumanchu at amor.org  Mon Aug 23 13:18:45 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:18:45 -0700
Subject: J2 decorator grammar
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E41@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Fran?ois Pinard wrote:
> [Peter Maas]
> > Robert Brewer schrieb:
> 
> > with:
> >     return ...
> >     accept ...
> >     classmethod
> > def func():
> >     <function body>
> 
> > "using" instead of "with" would be equally satisfactory for me. I
> > don't like "decorate" because it sounds like "attaching some bells
> > and whistles" or "making it look pretty" which isn't 
> adequate for the
> > meaning of this syntax.
> 
> I'm not especially crusading for `with', but it has the 
> advantage that it will
> likely become a keyword in some later version of Python, and 
> likely also,
> will be used in `with SOMETHING:' and not barely as `with:'.

That's a very interesting point. I hadn't noticed the similarity between decorator suites and "with" suites before. I could be argued that decorator suites are a case of a with-suite where the referent is implied. That is:

decorate:
    classmethod
def foo(cls):
    pass

implies

with foo:
    classmethod
def foo(cls):
    pass

If this is a strong implication, then we could make the argument that decorator suites should allow arbitrary targets, not just def. In that case, a decorator suite which did not possess a signifier ("with:") could universally imply that the referent (the target, that which is signified) follows the suite. Therefore, future use-cases might allow all of the following:

with:
    classmethod
    .author = "Fran?ois Pinard"
def foo(cls):
    pass

def bar():
    pass
with bar:
    staticmethod
    .version = "0.2.4"

with:
    .name = "New Item"
thing = Item()
with thing:
    .color = "red"

Definitely cool. But too big, I think, for the proposal at this point. That's a large-enough topic that it's probably best to leave to Guido's gut feelings right now. It's enough to point out that such futures are possible; at most, we might mention that "with" and decorators are semantically similar, so we shouldn't reject "with" out-of-hand.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From luismg at gmx.net  Sat Aug 21 20:05:44 2004
From: luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 17:05:44 -0700
Subject: Python future performance and speed
Message-ID: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>

It seems there are quite a few projects aimed to improve Python's
speed and, therefore, eliminate its main limitation for mainstream
acceptance.
I just wonder what do you all think?
Will Python (and dynamic languages in general) be someday close to
compiled languages speed?
What will be the future of Psyco, Pypy, Starkiller, Ironpython and all
the other projects currently on development?


From skip at pobox.com  Wed Aug 11 14:38:49 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:38:49 -0500
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar,
 but for what exactly? (decorator libraries).
In-Reply-To: <d111eafa.0408101539.530814e9@posting.google.com>
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
	<mailman.1352.1091953503.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-0D45FB.09322108082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1467.1092158118.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<d111eafa.0408101539.530814e9@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <16666.26553.992466.508907@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Minor typo - I think the references to martha.memo[key] in _inner should
    be to martha.memo[func][key], enabling you to prevent different memoized
    functions' results from clashing when they were called with the same
    parameters.

Thanks for the correction.

Skip


From PeterAbel at gmx.net  Wed Aug 11 02:35:32 2004
From: PeterAbel at gmx.net (Peter Abel)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 23:35:32 -0700
Subject: how to dispatch objects depending on their class
References: <4118dd4a$1@maser.urz.unibas.ch>
Message-ID: <21064255.0408102235.331f5f49@posting.google.com>

Curzio Basso <curzio.basso at unibas.ch> wrote in message news:<4118dd4a$1 at maser.urz.unibas.ch>...
> Hi all.
> 
> I have a couple of question regarding the following situation:
> 
> class A(object):
>    def __init__(self):
>      pass
> 
> class B(object):
>    def __init__(self):
>      A.__init__(self)
> 
> def func(object):
>    if isinstance(object, A):
>      do_something_with_A(object)
>    elif isinstance(object, B):
>      do_something_with_B(object)
> 
> Note that in my real problem I cannot move the logic of func to the 
> class A and B because I will have a hierarchy also for func. Then I need 
> a way to dispatch the object to the right function. I thought about 
> using a dictionary, like:
> 
> FUNC = {"<class '__main__.A'>": do_something_with_A,
>          "<class '__main__.B'>": do_something_with_B}
> 
> def func(object):
>    FUNC[type(object)](object)
> 
> But: (1) I am not sure of what the type(object) function return. In this 
> case A and B are in the __main__ namespace (assuming this is how is 
> called), but if they are in a module; (2) I am not sure if it is 
> efficient; and finally (3): probably there is a better way to do it 
> (this is always a safe assumption).
> 
> I hope my problem is clear, and excuse me if I am asking about something 
> that is common knowledge, but I don't even know what to google for...
> 
> thanks, curzio


At my opinion you try to do something outside a class which should
be a basic task of OOP. Why not let the instances do their class-specific
things:

class A(object):
  def __init__(self):
    pass
  def do_something(self):
    """ Do A-specific things """
    pass

class B(object):
  def __init__(self):
    A.__init__(self)
  def do_something(self):
    """ Do B-specific things """
    pass

a=A()
b=B()
a.do_something()
b.do_something()

Regards
Peter


From harry.g.george at boeing.com  Thu Aug 19 13:37:35 2004
From: harry.g.george at boeing.com (Harry George)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:37:35 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<mailman.1911.1092869627.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <xqxvfffrpuo.fsf@cola2.ca.boeing.com>

"Eli Stevens (WG.c)" <listsub at wickedgrey.com> writes:

> Lucas Raab wrote:
> 
> > One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> > Python programmer?
> 
> 25 here, Python newbie (less than a year, I think).
> 
> I'm sad that nobody else in this thread has spoken in hushed, reverent
> tones about my gateway drug, LogoWriter.  I was 10 when my fifth grade
> math class went to the school computer lab and made the turtle crawl
> around the screen.  From there, QBasic, C++, C-because-school-made-me,
> Java-because-work-made-me, Python-to-save-me.  ;)
> 
> Handy tip: if you were anything like me, _don't_ go back and try to
> read your old code.  I had variable names like "qwer" "qwert" and
> "qwerty", alongside classics like "a", "b" and "c."
> 
> *Shudder*
> Eli
> 
> 

A few years ago, I mentored for a math class (3rd-5th grades), and we
did logo robotics.  They programmed the little cars to drive a course
drawn on butcher paper.  We started with open loop (no feedback), and
did pretty well, then added sensor feedback from strategically placed
lights and did better.  Most of the kids were more interested in
building logo monster trucks or coloring on the butcher paper.  But 3
of them "got it", and did the programming, and the rest ran after
run-away cars.   

-- 
harry.g.george at boeing.com
6-6M21 BCA CompArch Design Engineering
Phone: (425) 342-0007


From jacek.generowicz at cern.ch  Thu Aug 26 11:01:34 2004
From: jacek.generowicz at cern.ch (Jacek Generowicz)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 17:01:34 +0200
Subject: Proposal for removing self
References: <T_7Xc.61360$Fg5.2281@attbi_s53>
Message-ID: <tyfd61eosdt.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>

"Brent W. Hughes" <brent.hughes at comcast.net> writes:

> When doing object-oriented stuff, it bothers me to have to type "self" so
> many times.

When doing object-oriented stuff, it makes me extactic to write
"self." in front of instance attributes. The knowledge that other
programmers are always doing the same, makes me even more happy.

The fact that there are plenty of C++ and Java coding conventions
which require that all class members' names start with "m_", or that
all instance attributes be accessed, in methods, via "this->" or
"this."  (depending) on the language in question, seems to support
Python's choice in this matter.

> I propose that Python allow the programmer to optionally type
> ".variable" instead of "self.variable" to mean the same thing.  Of course,
> the interpreter would have to be more careful about detecting floats that
> begin with just a period as in ".5".  What are your thoughts?

I think you should get into the habit of reading FAQs, Archives,
Googling (you know, the usual stuff), before making such suggestions
publically.


From __peter__ at web.de  Fri Aug 13 08:34:29 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:34:29 +0200
Subject: Why can't  pickle dump this instance?
References: <ba1e306f.0408122146.703311d5@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cficgl$kak$01$1@news.t-online.com>

Jane Austine wrote:

> class A:
>     def __init__(self,tick):
>         if tick:
>             self.foo=self.bar
>         else:
>             self.foo=self.bur
>     def bar(self):
>         print 'bar'
>     def bur(self):
>         print 'bur'
> 
> import pickle
> pickle.dumps(A())
> 
> running this script results in "TypeError: can't pickle function objects"
> 
> Why does this happen? and what can I do?

By default pickle bypasses the __init__() method completely, it just saves
class name and the instance's __dict__. In your case __dict__ happens to
contain a bound method which cannot be pickled. I don't know why, maybe the
general case where the instance the method is bound to could be a different
object would get too messy.

The normal way to manipulate the state to be pickled/unpickled is to
implement the __getstate__()/__setstate__() pair, but in your case it is
easier to trigger invocation of __init__() by generating the appropriate
argument list via __getinitargs__().

Peter

<code>
import pickle

class A:
    def __init__(self, tick):
        if tick:
            self.foo = self.bar
        else:
            self.foo = self.bur

    def __getstate__(self):
        # copy the __dict__ so that further changes
        # do not affect the current instance
        d = dict(self.__dict__)
        # remove the closure that cannot be pickled
        del d["foo"]
        # return state to be pickled
        return d

    def __getinitargs__(self):
        tick = self.foo == self.bar
        # return argument tuple for __init__()
        # all items must be pickleable
        return (tick,)

    def bar(self):
        print "bar"
    def bur(self):
        print "bur"

if __name__ == "__main__":
    # test it
    for tick in [False, True]:
        print "\ntick =", tick
        a = A(tick)
        a.foo()
        s = pickle.dumps(a)
        b = pickle.loads(s)
        b.foo()
</code>


From tundra at tundraware.com  Sat Aug 21 16:59:52 2004
From: tundra at tundraware.com (Tim Daneliuk)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 16:59:52 EDT
Subject: My only complaint about Python
In-Reply-To: <4127af18$0$22378$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<CuCdnUCvWK5XSLncRVn-jw@giganews.com>
	<sr3iv1-b5c1.ln1@eskimo.tundraware.com>
	<874qmxj81k.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>
	<l8kkv1-v652.ln1@eskimo.tundraware.com>
	<4127af18$0$22378$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <ebpkv1-qnc2.ln1@eskimo.tundraware.com>

Christophe Cavalaria wrote:

> Tim Daneliuk wrote:
> 
> 
>>510046470588-0001 at t-online.de wrote:
>>
>>>Tim Daneliuk <tundra at tundraware.com> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Istvan Albert wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>In all fairness this is more the problem with Microsoft than
>>>>>python. If they had a free fully-featured compiler then Python
>>>>>would be compiled with that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>They do.  MSC/C++ is now available at NO cost:
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>no cost is not the same as free
>>>
>>>Klaus Schilling
>>
>><Goes Off The Reservation For A Moment>
>>
>>"No Cost" is _exactly_ the same thing as "Free". It is not the same
>>thing as "Open Source".
>>
>>The debate is foolish in any case. If I use an GPLed compiler, even with
>>the Lesser License, I have constraints placed upon what I may or may
>>not do with the derivative work. If I use a commercial compiler, I do
>>not have access to the source code _for the compiler_, but (usually)
>>there are no constraints placed upon what I may do with the derivative
>>work.
> 
> 
> This is wrong on so many levels :
> - gcc is GPL software and you don't have to GPL the source code of the
> programs you compile with it. Doing so would place a restriction on the
> user of the software which is exactly what the GPL is trying to prevent.
> Using gcc to compile source code isn't creating a derivative work of gcc !
> - if you modify the gcc source code and thus create a derivative work, you
> don't have to distribute the changes, unless you distribute the new gcc
> version.
> - with a commercial closed source compiler, you can't do any derivative of
> the compiler at all and thus you have less freedom than with a GPL
> compiler.
> 
> If you can't see the difference between using a software and creating a
> derivative work of that software ...

It is "derivative" in the sense that the final binary may either contain
and/or depend upon library support shipped with the gcc compiler chain.
IIRC (and this may have changed - I have not looked at it in some time),
even the Lesser GPL places some constraints about what you _must_ distribute
(or be willing to provide) when you use their libs to produce a shipped product.
Moreover, for a long time (and this too may have changed), the corporate
lawyers I had checking the GPL did not like it because it was (legally)
muddy.

The only sense in which you have "less freedom" with a commercial product
is that you cannot build works that derive directly from the compiler/library
source code.  So what?   In most real world commercial applications, this is
a non-issue.  Note that I was clear that I use _both_ OSS and Commercial products.
My rant is directed at people who thing Proprietary=Evil and OSS=Good which is
a nonsensical position.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk     tundra at tundraware.com
PGP Key:         http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/


From peter at engcorp.com  Wed Aug 18 07:27:01 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 07:27:01 -0400
Subject: case insensitive comparison operator ?
In-Reply-To: <41233060$0$198$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>
References: <41233060$0$198$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>
Message-ID: <vOWdnb5kZe6boL7cRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>

Will McGugan wrote:

> What is the best way to do a simple case insensitive comparison in Python?
> 
> As far as I can tell, the only option is to do str1.lowercase() == 
> str2.lowercase() (or uppercase). 

Actually, it's str1.lower() == str2.lower().

> But that strikes me as quite verbose 

Luckily it's not that verbose after all!  ;-)

> for such a common operation, 

Nor that common!  If you need to do this more than once in an
application, you can easily create a simple compareCaseInsensitive()
function that hides the above "excessive verbosity" and you'll
never notice it again.  Furthermore, in most cases you've already
stored one of those two strings, so if you lower() it when you
store it, you only need to do "str1 == str2.lower()" when you
are comparing later on.  At least that's the use case I've
seen to be "common", and I've written more Python code than you
have so there. ;-)

> and possibly inneficient since it would create and destroy 2 
 > tempory objects.

Python creates and destroys a lot more temporary objects than you
might imagine, and still gets by.  In fact, the function calls
involved probably have much higher overhead (from setting up
the stack frame) than the object creation... Python often upsets
conventional ideas of where hotspots will be.

> Apologies if I have missed something. I haven't done a great deal of 
> work int Python yet.

Worrying about possible inefficiencies before you've even done
much coding in a language is a clear case of premature
optimization.  Just write some code, learn to use and love Python,
and if you still really want this, come back later and suggest
it again. ;-)

-Peter


From andy47 at halfcooked.com  Thu Aug  5 14:31:16 2004
From: andy47 at halfcooked.com (Andy Todd)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 19:31:16 +0100
Subject: MySQLdb select
In-Reply-To: <2nembjF2dr7U1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <lGIOc.4961$AY5.4762@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>	<ceg5ca$ftn$1@newshispeed.ch>	<9RPOc.2792$LI7.1058@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>	<21064255.0408020908.41357e52@posting.google.com>	<mailman.1064.1091481067.5135.python-list@python.org>	<2n9gmuFuhk8kU1@uni-berlin.de>	<ggbvg05qaa0n04675jof14l8oo1c908pkl@4ax.com>	<2nbn3pFv4865U1@uni-berlin.de>	<gmv1h0tbk1iujk2nssjtrankri3tqveh6c@4ax.com>
	<2nembjF2dr7U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <cetudn$kq8$1@sea.gmane.org>

Sibylle Koczian wrote:
> Dennis Lee Bieber schrieb:
> 
>>
>>     Except that the conversion function, .literal(),  /does/  accept
>> a single item, a sequence (tuple OR list), or a mapping (dictionary).
>> The arguments are just passed through .execute(), which doesn't really
>> care one way or the other.
>>
>>     Tediously, .execute() calls ._execute(), which has:
>> ...
>>         try:
>>             if args is None:
>>                 r = self._query(query)
>>             else:
>>                 r = self._query(query % self.connection.literal(args))
>>         except TypeError, m:
>> ...
>>
>>     Since .literal() accepts single objects (well, in truth, I'd
>> guess one would have to say that it is .escape() that processes the
>> arguments -- I can't say what that does, as it is likely in the binary
>> module. However, the actual forming of the final query string /is/ the
>> standard Python "string" % arg operator, which, in my experience, has
>> never complained about not being given a 1-tuple.
>>  
> 
> True. I had hopes that this might explain another riddle I couldn't 
> solve: datefield is a database column of type date, and I execute two 
> queries:
> 
> a) SELECT * FROM mytable WHERE datefield = %s
> 
> b) SELECT * FROM mytable WHERE datefield IN (%s, %s)
> 
> case a): the parameter for %s can be a mx.DateTime object, a 
> datetime.date object or the sort of DateTime object MySQLdb returns from 
> another query; or it can be a string with format 'YYYY-MM-DD'. The 
> results of the query are correct in every case.
> 
> case b): the parameters must be strings of the form 'YYYY-MM-DD'. With 
> all other sorts of parameters (DateTime objects, strings in other date 
> formats) the query doesn't find anything.
> 
> I tried this with different versions of MySQL, MySQLdb and Python, under 
> Windows and Linux, always with the same results.
> 
> Now I've looked at conn.literal(args) for a pair of DateTime objects and 
> for a single one:
> 
>  >>> arg
> <DateTime object for '2004-06-18 00:00:00.00' at 1199da0>
>  >>> arglist
> [<DateTime object for '2004-07-29 00:00:00.00' at 117af20>, <DateTime 
> object for '2004-07-07 00:00:00.00' at 1199de0>]
>  >>> conn.literal(arglist)
> ("'2004-07-29 00:00:00'", "'2004-07-07 00:00:00'")
>  >>> conn.literal(arg)
> "'2004-06-18 00:00:00'"
>  >>> s1 = 'SELECT * FROM fehllief WHERE fehltag IN (%s, %s)'
>  >>> s1 % conn.literal(arglist)
> "SELECT * FROM fehllief WHERE fehltag IN ('2004-07-29 00:00:00', 
> '2004-07-07 00:00:00')"
>  >>> s2 = 'SELECT * FROM fehllief WHERE fehltag = %s'
>  >>> s2 % conn.literal(arg)
> "SELECT * FROM fehllief WHERE fehltag = '2004-06-18 00:00:00'"
>  >>> curs.execute(s1, arglist)
> 0L
>  >>> curs.execute(s2, arg)
> 1L
> 
> Why doesn't the query using IN find anything while the query using = 
> does? The records are there, of course.
> 
> Koczian

It's a bug. I think it is a bug in MySQL. I'm using 4.0.18 on Debian and 
an interactive session shows the problem;

"""
andy47 at vetinari:~$ mysql
Welcome to the MySQL monitor.  Commands end with ; or \g.
Your MySQL connection id is 25 to server version: 4.0.18-log

Type 'help;' or '\h' for help. Type '\c' to clear the buffer.

mysql> use portfolio
Reading table information for completion of table and column names
You can turn off this feature to get a quicker startup with -A

Database changed
mysql> select count(*) from stock_prices where price_date = '2004-07-30';
+----------+
| count(*) |
+----------+
|        7 |
+----------+
1 row in set (0.00 sec)

mysql> select count(*) from stock_prices where price_date = '2004-07-30 
00:00:00';
+----------+
| count(*) |
+----------+
|        7 |
+----------+
1 row in set (0.00 sec)
"""

When using '=' the two forms of date are identical, but if we switch to 
using 'in';

"""
mysql> select count(*) from stock_prices where price_date in ('2004-07-30');
+----------+
| count(*) |
+----------+
|        7 |
+----------+
1 row in set (0.00 sec)

mysql> select count(*) from stock_prices where price_date in 
('2004-07-30 00:00:00');
+----------+
| count(*) |
+----------+
|        0 |
+----------+
1 row in set (0.00 sec)

mysql>
"""

Ta-da. Of course, this may have already been notified to MySQL AB, I'd 
check their web site (http://www.mysql.com) or try one of their mailing 
lists.

Regards,
Andy
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 From the desk of Andrew J Todd esq - http://www.halfcooked.com/



From ayose.cazorla at hispalinux.es  Wed Aug 25 11:12:07 2004
From: ayose.cazorla at hispalinux.es (Ayose)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:12:07 +0100
Subject: Why return None?
In-Reply-To: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
Message-ID: <20040825151206.GB2852@setepo.gotdns.org>


[Martin DeMello]
> It seems to be a fairly common pattern for an object-modifying method to
> return None - however, this is often quite inconvenient.
> 
> For instance
> 
> def f(lst1, lst2):
>   g((lst1 + lst2).reverse()) # doesn't work!

If you can use python 2.3 or newer, try with [::-1]

    >>> def f(m, n):
    ...     print (m + n)[::-1]
    ... 
    >>> f([1,2,3], [10,20,30])
    [30, 20, 10, 3, 2, 1]
    >>> 




-- 
Ayose Cazorla Le?n
Debian GNU/Linux - setepo


From adurdin at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 01:57:57 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:57:57 +1000
Subject: [Python-Dev] PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
In-Reply-To: <200408190455.i7J4t6CN025433@cosc353.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz>
References: <200408190455.i7J4t6CN025433@cosc353.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a0408182257702db09b@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:55:06 +1200, Greg Ewing
<greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> Guido:
> 
> > Is anybody seriously trying to come up with a single alternative
> > decorator proposal that most folks "out there" can support, to be
> > presented to me (with implementation, please!) in time for 2.4b1?
> 
> >From the posts I've seen here, the only alternatives that have
> considerable popular support are ones that you've already rejected. So
> I suspect nobody really feels it's worth trying.

To expand on that just a bit: the two alternatives that were most
generally favoured (in Doug Holton's estimate) were the
"list-after-def" (C1 in the wiki), and the "pie decorator at top of
function body" (E1 in the wiki), both of which Guido rejected.
In the poll that Doug ran, E1 had a slight margin over C1:
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2004-August/233479.html

However, C1 has an implementation, while E1 doesn't. (Aside: how
difficult would it be to create an implementation of E1?)


From timrueAT at mindspringDOT.com  Sun Aug 15 16:19:03 2004
From: timrueAT at mindspringDOT.com (threeseas)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 20:19:03 GMT
Subject: autocoding and the new MS book regarding software factories
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1672.1092553249.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <n5yTc.22403$9Y6.15819@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>
	<mailman.1672.1092553249.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <XyPTc.23206$9Y6.16858@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>

Roman Suzi wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Aug 2004, threeseas wrote:
>>
>>(CLI #1) + (GUI) + (IPC) = the three primary .....
> 
> 
> Well, there is no scientific foundation and in fact science tells us that
> autocoding is not possible for arbitrary tasks. I believe, it is possible to
> create autocoding (automatically generated) software for any little enough
> problem domain, maybe, say, for writing GUI. However there is theoretical
> abyss between modern computers and humans. It is called formalisation.
> Only programmer's brain is capable to cross this abyss formalising any
> non-trivial novel task.

What science? Certainly not the science of abstraction physics.
You seemed to snip what you didn't want to consider .... sorta like what 
  those who don't want to see my presence on a python IRC channel, ban 
me.... But denial is no proof against something, but only proof of the 
choice of ignorance by those in denial.

from another direction -- http://www.codegeneration.net/generators.php

Software development is still quite young. Like mathmatics via the roman 
numeral system, very limited. But then came along the hindu-arabic 
decimal system with its "nothing can have value" zero place holder that 
cause every thing to change, including the droping of status for expert 
accountants in roman numeral mathmatics.

The science of roman numeral mathmatics tell us that the complexity of 
calculation required to create a computer (as we call it today and in 
hindsight - for it was beyond even imagination at that point) is simply 
not possible to achieve.... go figure..

But if you are looking for a singularity or magic formula or holy grail, 
forget it, it simply doesn't exist. But what does exist is:

Programming is the act of automating complexity, typically made up of 
simpler parts (in comparison to the sum product of the automation) and 
done so in order to make the use and re-use of the automation easier for 
the user(s) of the automation. This is a recursive act, from automaing 
some assembly language code into a higher level language function all 
the way up to a typical user scripting (perhaps via some user action 
recorder/playback application)so as to make some task of theirs easier 
to do.

Its clear to me that Artificial Intelligence is.. well nothing is 
naturally that stupid... an illusion of simply automating enough, 
perhaps in a highly dynamic manner, to present the illusion of 
intelligence. Its simply a matter of the foundation nature of the 
technology... binary transistors... like a two deminsional creature 
being totally incapable of comprehending a three deminsional being or 
object.

Soooo..... to use an analogy we simply need to put away our roman 
numeral mentality and its inability to comprehend that nothing can have 
value. To drop the psuedo science of programming and get to reality with 
   the understanding of abstraction physics.

> And for trivial task we already have an interface:
> 
> $ grep -i word file | sort | uniq | wc
> 
> Saying the above, I must admit that more tasks become trivial as new
> instruments arrive. So, programming users (CP4A anybody?) can
> solve their 90% of their tasks by almost mechanical combination
> of existing tools.
> 
> *
> 
> I imaging Year 2015:
> 
> Computer:
>  - by your command
> GvR: (standing at his computer)
>  - computer, make Python 3.0 release. The grammar I sketched
>    on the paper in the scanner. Please guess semantics.
>    If in doubt post to c.l.p a question. If c.l.p in doubt make a
>    poll. If in doubt of poll results make another poll on how to
>    interpret poll results.
> Computer:
>  - YES, SIR!
> GvR:
>  - Good.
> (after half an our)
> 
> Computer:
>   - I need your help
> GvR:
>   - yes?
> Computer:
>   - please affirm you want to pay $10k for the Microsoft license
>   and also Python 3 violates 20 patents.
> GvR:
>   - Oh no!... (calling sponsors)
> (after half an hour)
>  Computer:
>   - Python 3 ready. Total cost $21k.
> GvR:
>   (typing "python3" at his terminal)
>   - Oh... But this is #D...
> Computer:
>   - under given constraints this is the best solution. C.l.p poll
>   shows 52% of people support this as it is familiar to them.
> GvR:
>   (upset, playing with his time machine controls)
> (1 minute later)
> Timbot:
>   - there is another option
> GvR:
>   - What?
> Timbot:
>   - freeware aka OSS
> 
> 
> 
> Sincerely yours, Roman Suzi

Amusing.... Like writing a Buck Rodgers script as how the space program 
will look like, huh?

I noticed you put alot of faith in the patent sysytem to be able to 
maintain its command over father physics and mother nature, or at least 
to convince humans it has such power. Perhaps someone should simply just 
write out a patent application for anti-gravity and the patent office 
grant it so we can all finally just have it..... huh?

But here is what is really going to happen:

you walk off a cliff and gravity will make you fall down. Likewise, you 
try and put false constraints on what is naturally possible and its a 
sure thing that father physics and mother nature will expose you for 
your falseness, making you fall down (metaphorically speaking)

That is what is going to happen to the patent system in regards to 
software. Especially when abstraction physics are established and found 
to be natural and with a physical element that cannot be denied (patents 
give the right to exclude) anyone. The absolute unpatentable nature of 
abstraction physics and commonality of solutions via the then obvious 
non-novel abstraction creation and manipulation mechanics.

from one side --- autocoding, from the other side --- code generators...

Those in the middle trying to hold on to what they want to believe is 
non-automatable are going to get ....... exposed... perhaps die of 
exposure... :)

The python programming language itself has made quite a bit that was 
previously more complex to impliment, easier to use and reuse, via 
automation of that complexity into modules, functions, classes, etc...

I have also found the eric3 IDE exactly what I was looking for in having 
the ability to trace or follow thru the execution of python code and 
variables it includes.

The only drawback I find with python is its required code indentation, 
but that might be turned into an advantage in developing or configuring 
an autocoding tool set for it. As it is perhaps easy to follow where an 
autocoder shifted inward or outward in code depth/detail.

At any rate, the fall of the patent system in regards to software and 
the establishment of genuines abstraction physics.... Of course OSS is 
the way to go. its the ship that is truely capable of sailing around the 
world and proving that the proprietary tech of the flat earth simply is 
just a denial of what is, for only the benefit of a few. Together 
openly, we can do a great deal more, and that is what IS. (tunnel vision 
greed or wide scope benefits?)

maybe I've just given MS a few hints..??? shrug...(a matter of denial ... ;)


From webstuff at fluidic.com  Fri Aug 20 22:46:30 2004
From: webstuff at fluidic.com (J)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 02:46:30 GMT
Subject: python a jdbc
References: <slrnchv42a.278.gregor.jan@ins1.opera.com>
Message-ID: <2004082022464216807%webstuff@fluidiccom>

On 2004-08-15 12:33:14 -0400, Jan Gregor <gregor.jan at NOSPAMquick.cz> said:

> Is there some to use jdbc driver with python ? I thought about
> communication between java process and python throught sockets. Simple
> test worked fine.
> 
> Jan

Why not use jython if it is a java app that you want a hook a python 
interpeter into the application.

-- 
J
"If there is anything I can do for you or more to the point to you, let 
me know."



From pink at odahoda.de  Sat Aug 21 17:58:48 2004
From: pink at odahoda.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 23:58:48 +0200
Subject: Validating SGML parser?
Message-ID: <cg8gkt$tiu$07$1@news.t-online.com>

Hi,

does anyone know of a validating SGML parser in python (like 
xmlproc.xmlval does for XML)? Goal is to validation HTML against the 
DTD, similar to validator.w3.org, not all SGML obscurities are required.

If real SGML validation is no option, I could probably rewrite the HTML 
to make it XML conformant and feed it into xmlval - but then I'll have 
to find a way to map line/column numbers from error messages to 
positions in the unmodified HTML. I leave this as an exercise for my 
future self...

Greetings from Heidelberg, Germany
	Benjamin Niemann


From ville at spammers.com  Wed Aug  4 15:11:14 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 04 Aug 2004 22:11:14 +0300
Subject: Decorator syntax (was Re: PEP 318 - PyFIT comments)
References: <10h24oace15n97a@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <du7zn5a1zxp.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "John" == John Roth <newsgroups at jhrothjr.com> writes:

    John> Decorator syntax seems to have been checked into 2.4b2.  I'm
    John> not going to comment on the syntax other than to say that,
    John> when there isn't a real obvious syntax, someone has to make
    John> a decision, and this one should work.

Yes, it should work. It's also a terrible waste of @ punctuation,
which should IMO be reserved for some more worthwhile purpose. I was
eagerly waiting for the introduction of decorators (and worried that
the proposed syntaxes would cause the feature to be thrown out), but
this choice of syntax leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and makes me
want to see the intro of decorators to be postponed or scrapped
altogether. 

This syntax is out there with backticks and print>>. And I'm one of
those who voted *for* ternary operator, and generally embrace new
features with enthusiasm.

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From thomas at it-snedkeren.BLACK_HOLE.dk  Mon Aug  9 06:29:51 2004
From: thomas at it-snedkeren.BLACK_HOLE.dk (Thomas Lindgaard)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 12:29:51 +0200
Subject: Komodo, debugging and multi-threading
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.09.10.29.50.984382@it-snedkeren.BLACK_HOLE.dk>

Hello

I have a multi-threaded web spider and it has a problem (probably
several). Is there a way to make the debugger show me what my worker
threads are doing? I can only get it to follow the main thread. I'm using
Komodo Personal (trial).

-- 
Regards
/Thomas



From seandavidross at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 27 13:17:35 2004
From: seandavidross at hotmail.com (Sean Ross)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:17:35 -0400
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
Message-ID: <cgnq66$hmo$1@zcars0v6.ca.nortel.com>


"Dan Perl" <dperl at rogers.com> wrote in message
news:2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490 at news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> Here is a python feature that I would like: to be able to import modules
> from an archive like the jar files in Java.  Maybe a regular tar file?
[snip]
> I am quite new to python so I should ask first whether there is already
> something like that, although I did a search already.  Or maybe such a
> feature has already been discussed somewhere?  If this is an original
idea,
> how can I propose it for future releases?


Well, you can use .zip files
http://www.python.org/doc/2.3.4/whatsnew/node5.html
HTH,
Sean




From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug  5 12:18:22 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 12:18:22 -0400
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>	<opsb9g3hjudgjose@mail.yahoo.it>
	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2-SdnZCwNs1SwI_cRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>

Anthony Baxter wrote:

>>This is a bad joke after all the strong perplexities showed about its
>>decorators solution.
>>I vote against the "@decorator before function" solution.
> 
> Please feel free to actually provide reasons for not liking @decorators.
> 
> Also - if you think you don't like it - please _try_ _it_ _out_ first.

Actually, I think many people *are* trying it out right now...
by reading the posts in this forum.

Python is not supposed to be a write-only language, as are some
other P languages that tend to use lots of punctuation for arbitrary
purposes (as surely no one has forgotten).

Python is supposed to be an *eminently readable* language.  Those
of us objecting on the grounds of things like "ugliness" are actually
*reading* the examples and sample code that are being posted, and
are finding them *highly unreadable*.  This is a valid reaction, and
since code is more often read than written (as again I don't need
to remind anyone), the readability of a feature should weigh much
more heavily than how easy it is to use after you try it out for
yourself.  IMHO.

Yes, of course after using them for a while they will become more 
readable, but there are people who have learned to speak Klingon as
well -- and that doesn't change the fact that Klingon is deliberately
very difficult to learn and awkward.

Furthermore, a number of people seem to be claiming that decorators
will be rarely used, so the @ syntax shouldn't be considered a problem.
They are getting it exactly backwards!  If decorators will be rarely
used, then make sure the syntax is more readable than not, and even if
it's a tad more cumbersome to write, who will mind?  They aren't going
to be used that often, right?!

-Peter


From theller at python.net  Fri Aug 27 10:36:37 2004
From: theller at python.net (Thomas Heller)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:36:37 +0200
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <y8k0y7ey.fsf@python.net>

"Robert Brewer" <fumanchu at amor.org> writes:

> The J2 proposal is as complete as it will ever be.
>
> http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html

Against.   Thomas Heller

why: pie syntax reads better.


From sjdevnull at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 10 12:22:11 2004
From: sjdevnull at yahoo.com (G. S. Hayes)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 09:22:11 -0700
Subject: tool to check whether formal and actual parameters have similar
	names
References: <cfa3hb$387@odak26.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <96c2e938.0408100822.3c9905d@posting.google.com>

"Amir  Michail" <amichail at gmail.com> wrote in message news:<cfa3hb$387 at odak26.prod.google.com>...
> I was wondering if there is a tool that will perform some heuristic
> checking of actual and formal parameters to warn about likely errors.
> 
> Such a tool could check that formal and actual parameters have similar
> names.
> 
> For example:
> 
> def plot(x,y): ...
> 
> plot( x1, y1 ) # ok
> 
> plot( y1, x1 ) # not ok, but this is ok:  plot (x=y1, y=x1)

I'm not sure how generally useful this would be.  There are just too
many circumstances where the name in the definition and the name you
call with are legitimately quite different:

def plot(x, y):
...
plot(square.width, square.height)
for column in range(8):
    for row in range(8):
        move_pawn_to(column, row)
        plot(column, row)
 
for i in range(10):
    for j in range(10):
        plot(i,j)  #along with other stuff using the loop variables

def write_log(string_to_send):    # probably a log.write method in
real life
...
write_log(server.error_message)
write_log(user.username)

def wait_for_connection(socket):
...
wait_for_connection(servers["yahoo"])

It _might_ be somewhat useful to have something that detects ONLY when
you are calling with similar names in a different order.  Even that
isn't necessarily useful, there might be non-trivial cases something
like:

class generic_tree():
    def insert_member(child, parent):
class gui_window_tree(our_tree):
class crypto_algorithms_tree(our_tree):
...
(child, parent) = fork_wrapper()
GUIWindows.insert_member(child, parent)
EncryptionAlgorithms.insert_member(parent, child)

where flip-flopping names made sense.  Though this isn't a
particularly great example, and it might generally be a decent lint
warning.


From pinard at iro.umontreal.ca  Wed Aug  4 15:08:16 2004
From: pinard at iro.umontreal.ca (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois?= Pinard)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 15:08:16 -0400
Subject: ANN: libgmail 0.0.7 - Gmail access via Python - Now with FTP
	Proxy!
In-Reply-To: <20040804161942.GA22706@performancedrivers.com>
References: <mailman.1130.1091629649.5135.python-announce-list@python.org>
	<20040804161942.GA22706@performancedrivers.com>
Message-ID: <20040804190816.GA4269@alcyon.progiciels-bpi.ca>

[Jack Diederich]

> Seriously, it is great that you are doing stuff and sharing it but
> we don't need a status update every three days.

These announcements are much more on target for the Python list than
some other posts we sometimes see here.  Moreover, if the progress is
worth many announcements, they are welcome so far that I am concerned,
and the maintainer deserves at the very least the right of sharing his
enthusiasm around, where people might choose to pick it up.

A message like the one quoted above may well kill enthusiasm, and is
counter-productive.  A good and nice walk outside, admiring birds,
enjoying the sun and greenery, breathing fresh air, might put everyone
in a better mood and be more useful, overall, for the community. :-)

-- 
Fran?ois Pinard   http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard


From gbig005 at auckland.ac.nz  Thu Aug 19 21:57:35 2004
From: gbig005 at auckland.ac.nz (Geoffrey Biggs)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:57:35 +1200
Subject: Problems with adding a new built-in data type
In-Reply-To: <xt6Vc.4153$zS6.460372@news02.tsnz.net>
References: <xt6Vc.4153$zS6.460372@news02.tsnz.net>
Message-ID: <41255a8e$1@news.auckland.ac.nz>

No need to worry anymore, I've fixed the problem. If you're making a 
built-in type, remember to define your PyTypeObject with something other 
than NULL in the PyObject_HEAD_INIT. Non-built-ins don't need to worry 
about this because it gets filled in later for them (as in the example 
in the docs), but built-ins appear to need to fill it in themselves.

Geoff Biggs

Geoff Biggs wrote:
> Evening all,
> 
> I'm trying to add a new built-in number data type to Python with its own 
> syntax, so I'm working directly with the interpreter rather than 
> creating my own extension module (side note: I've appended something 
> extra to the version thing in the Makefile - I doubt this is relevant to 
> the problem but it's probably best you have all the info). The complex 
> data type is similar to what I'm trying to do so I've been following 
> that as an example. I've successfully extended the tokenizer and the 
> parsenumber() function in compile.c to do what I want and written the 
> data type in my two new files Objects/mynewobject.c and 
> Include/mynewobject.h. I've included mynewobject.h in Python.h and added 
> the two files to the Makefile.
> 
> However, when I tried to run the code by typing in the syntax to produce 
> my data type, Python suffers a segmentation fault. I traced this to an 
> attempt to get the hash of a null pointer when adding the new instance 
> of my type after parsenumber() was called. For completeness, here's the 
> backtrace:
> 
> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
> 0x08080e9a in PyObject_Hash (v=0x81486c0) at Objects/object.c:1162
> 1162            if (tp->tp_hash != NULL)
> (gdb) bt
> #0  0x08080e9a in PyObject_Hash (v=0x81486c0) at Objects/object.c:1162
> #1  0x0808e199 in tuplehash (v=0x40324574) at Objects/tupleobject.c:244
> #2  0x08080eae in PyObject_Hash (v=0x40324574) at Objects/object.c:1163
> #3  0x0807b46c in PyDict_GetItem (op=0x40319c14, key=0x40324574) at 
> Objects/dictobject.c:492
> #4  0x080c72c7 in com_add (c=0xbfffed60, list=0x40326114, 
> dict=0x40319c14, v=0x40326290) at Python/compile.c:975
> #5  0x080c74ac in com_addconst (c=0xbfffed60, v=0x40326290) at 
> Python/compile.c:1001
> #6  0x080c90e3 in com_atom (c=0xbfffed60, n=0x4028d500) at 
> Python/compile.c:1689
> 
> The crash appears to be caused because while v exists, v's members are 
> all 0 and so tp becomes 0 when it is made equal to v->ob_type and you 
> get a NULL pointer exception. As far as I can tell, this v is the second 
> object in the tuple created in com_add() and is supposed to be the type 
> of the object being added to the dictionary in a tuple. Not knowing why 
> it was coming out as zero, I did some more poking around (been doing a 
> lot of that over the past 5 days...) and found that there is a file 
> called bltinmodule.c with a bunch of lines, one of which mentions the 
> complex data type that I am using as a guide:
> 
> SETBUILTIN("complex", &PyComplex_Type);
> 
> So I made one of these for mynewobject and added it. I figured from this 
> bit of code that the reason I was getting NULL pointer exceptions was 
> because my type hadn't been initialised in some way and that this would 
> do it. But here's the problem: despite trying for longer than I've slept 
> in the past week, I can't get it to work. With that line in the Python 
> interpreter segfaults as soon as it starts (while trying to import the 
> os module) and so it can't even finish compiling the extension modules. 
> If I comment out the SETBUILTIN line I added it will compile fine but 
> then I go back to the first problem.
> 
> I have structured my object identically to the complex object as far as 
> I can tell, which works. So the question is, what's broken? What have I 
> missed when adding a new builtin?
> 
> (This mess is all happening on Linux tillinshir 2.6.7-gentoo-r11-gb #1 
> Wed Aug 4 11:13:14 NZST 2004 i686 mobile AMD Athlon(tm) XP 2000+ 
> AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux, if that matters.)
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Geoff Biggs


From ThomasBartkus at Comcast.net  Mon Aug  9 18:02:45 2004
From: ThomasBartkus at Comcast.net (Thomas Bartkus)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 17:02:45 -0500
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
	<30260531.0408091048.7011855f@posting.google.com>
	<tnmfh0dp629i16hqrqbnnu6r6l73kt2kn6@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <RtadndKlWc7RborcRVn-tg@telcove.net>

"Fred" <nobody at nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:tnmfh0dp629i16hqrqbnnu6r6l73kt2kn6 at 4ax.com...
>
> Thx but... not thx. That reminds me too much of the Petzold-era
> Windows in C :-)
>
Gads!  I still have that Petzold book.
I remember studying that stuff thinking it would take a long to for this GUI
stuff to catch on.

It didn't!
Thomas Bartkus




From mg.mailing-list at laposte.net  Tue Aug 31 13:59:48 2004
From: mg.mailing-list at laposte.net (mathieu gontier)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:59:48 +0200
Subject: PYTHON API : add new classes in a module from an other module 
Message-ID: <4134BC94.50702@laposte.net>

Hi every body

I am tring to create new Python modules.

In a first time, I have created a module named FOO in which I have 
inserted new classes. No problem :

    PyMODINIT_FUNC initFOO( void )
    {
          PyObject* module  = Py_InitModule3( "FOO", 0, "foo module" ) ;
          if ( ! module ) return ;

          if ( PyType_Ready( &my_type) < 0 ) return ;
          Py_INCREF( &my_type );
          PyModule_AddObject( module, "my_pytype", (PyObject*) &my_type ) ;
    }

In a second time, I would like create a new module named BAR. In the 
'init' function of this module, Ii would like add new classes in FOO.
So, I would like white something like the following :

    PyMODINIT_FUNC initBAR( void )
    {
          foo_module = Py_GetModule( "FOO" ) ;
          if( ! foo_module ) return ;

          if ( PyType_Ready( &my_addtype) < 0 ) return ;
          Py_INCREF( &my_addtype );
          PyModule_AddObject( foo_module, "my_pyaddtype", (PyObject*) 
&my_addtype ) ;
    }         

So, my question is : does it exist in the Python API, a equivalent 
function of  "Py_GetModule( <module name> )" (that a have invented for 
the example !)  ;
or does an other solution exist in order to do the same think ?

Thanks,
Mathieu 



From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 17:10:05 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:10:05 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: inverse of izip
References: <d11dcfba.0408182144.14aad4a8@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1934.1092900690.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cg1pct$p58$00$1@news.t-online.com>
	<d11dcfba.0408190917.14cfd774@posting.google.com>
	<cg2t3h$kk$07$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <loom.20040819T230417-639@post.gmane.org>

Peter Otten <__peter__ <at> web.de> writes:
> You can model the nested generator expressions' behaviour with the following
> function - which I think is much clearer. 
> 
> def starzip(iterables):
>     def inner(itr):
>         for t in itr:
>             yield t[i]
> 
>     for (i, itr) in enumerate(it.tee(iterables)):
>         yield inner(itr)
> 
> Note how itr is passed explicitly, i. e. it is not affected by later
> rebindings in startzip() whereas i is looked up in inner()'s surrounding
> namespace at every yield.

Thanks, that was really helpful!  It also clarifies why your solution works 
right; your code basically does:

def starzip(iterables):
	def inner(itr, i):
		for t in itr:
			yield t[i]

	for i, itr in enumerate(itertools.tee(iterables)):
		yield inner(itr, i)

where i is now passed explicitly too.

Thanks again,

Steve



From kamikaze at kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu  Mon Aug 23 13:06:11 2004
From: kamikaze at kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 17:06:11 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WE
	DONE?
References: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <slrncik8vv.1bja.kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu>

Paul McGuire <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com>
wrote on Sun, 22 Aug 2004 02:53:09 GMT:
> Well, after 3 days of open polling, the number of additional votes have
> dropped off pretty dramatically.  Here are the results so far:

  My server didn't receive the poll at all, AFAICT.  So my votes are:
A1 L L

  I'd rather have a keyword than punctuation, but the placement is
exactly right, and I have zero problem with @.

  If I could vote *against* something, it would be C1.  That's the most
amazingly horrible code, and leads to indentation wars for all eternity.

-- 
 <a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"Virtues foster one another; so too, vices.
 Bad English kills trees, consumes energy, and befouls the Earth.
 Good English renews it." -The Underground Grammarian, v1n2


From ruflicks at yahoo.fr  Sun Aug 29 16:16:30 2004
From: ruflicks at yahoo.fr (ruflicks)
Date: 29 Aug 2004 13:16:30 -0700
Subject: Zope help system, password needed in windows
References: <cddf980f.0408280543.2607288b@posting.google.com>
	<4130bc1e$1@pfaff2.ethz.ch>
Message-ID: <cddf980f.0408291216.33e90999@posting.google.com>

Thanks for your answer. Will try this new version.

Best regards.


From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Aug 29 19:10:30 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (Simon John)
Date: 29 Aug 2004 16:10:30 -0700
Subject: wxPython with Python 2.4a2
Message-ID: <cgtnp6$q7c@odah37.prod.google.com>

Has anyone built wxPython for Python 2.4a2?

I was going to evaluate Python 2.4a2, but as most of my Python work is
done with wxWidgets, it seems pointless without a wxPython build to go
with it.

Preferably Windows, but Linux would be good too.

I don't fancy doing the job myself under Linux, and don't have MSVC for
Windows.



From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Thu Aug 12 13:10:24 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:10:24 GMT
Subject: PEP318
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<20040812090056.00001e31@titan>
	<7ttmh0t8c3cogtbhhnp1ohqu8b51pda461@4ax.com>
	<roy-DC33F4.12335012082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<k98nh0pfqsedoisj6ou0rm85a9ir4t7a0v@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <mt8nh0tc86stoj1snnn29pkb324ojb9o0h@4ax.com>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:03:19 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com>
wrote:
>>
>>One of the objections to:
>>
>>def foo ():
>>   whatever
>>foo = decorator (foo)
>>
>>is that you have to type the word "foo" three times.  
>
>Big f**king deal - all things considered. ;)

Mathematical notation looks to achieve conciseness, and precision of
expression. And on settled matters of notation, assumedly that attempt
has been optimized.

Why is that not good enough for Python?

>
>Art



From nobody at nowhere.com  Fri Aug  6 17:41:56 2004
From: nobody at nowhere.com (Yannick Turgeon)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 17:41:56 -0400
Subject: Telnet session
References: <iEPPc.23049$Vm1.463742@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<ceqe62$601$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <RUSQc.43590$Jq2.1867410@news20.bellglobal.com>

I found the answer... but not the solution. The problem comes from the fact
that Microsoft does not use a *real* telnet server. It's documented in Perl
Net::Telnet doc. They are not fully respecting telnet protocol. Windows
Telnet Server resend the text and ANSI char that would appear in a cmd.exe
window. Curious? Sure! So each time you send a command from a client that
lead to "push" the previous command out of the vitual "display" space,
Windows Telnet Server resend all the resulting "display". You can try it
with a Windows telnet session where the client is started from cmd.exe.
You'll see that after login (here though!), you can write 7 "echo" commands
and get the reply without "pushing" previous "echo" out of the window. On
the 8th "echo" ("echo bar7" in the script given in this thread), the window
is redraw. And when programmaticaly telneting this kink of server, you get
ALL what the screen would contain if it were a cmd.exe window. Yes! ALL!
Even what you already receive. Making the read_until() function unusable.

Here is what I've fond on Perl Net::Telnet doc:
----------------
By default MS-Windows doesn't come with a TELNET server. However third party
TELNET servers are available. Unfortunately many of these servers falsely
claim to be a TELNET server. This is especially true of the so-called
"Microsoft Telnet Server" that comes installed with some newer versions
MS-Windows.

When a TELNET server first accepts a connection, it must use the ASCII
control characters carriage-return and line-feed to start a new line (see
RFC854). A server like the "Microsoft Telnet Server" that doesn't do this,
isn't a TELNET server. These servers send ANSI terminal escape sequences to
position to a column on a subsequent line and to even position while writing
characters that are adjacent to each other. Worse, when sending output these
servers resend previously sent command output in a misguided attempt to
display an entire terminal screen.

Connecting Net::Telnet to one of these false TELNET servers makes your job
of parsing command output very difficult. It's better to replace a false
TELNET server with a real TELNET server. The better TELNET servers for
MS-Windows allow you to avoid the ANSI escapes by turning off something some
of them call console mode.

---------------------

Hope it will prevent anybody to spent as much time as I did on this problem!

Yannick




From russblau at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 26 13:51:08 2004
From: russblau at hotmail.com (Russell Blau)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:51:08 -0400
Subject: property puzzle
References: <78b6a744.0408260846.5dc5a0cf@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <2p6m8eFhjanfU1@uni-berlin.de>

"george young" <gry at ll.mit.edu> wrote in message
news:78b6a744.0408260846.5dc5a0cf at posting.google.com...
> [python 2.3.3, x86 linux, part of a substantial gtk/postgres app]
> I want a Run instance to have a Status instance which inherits
> from Observable. I want to be able to say:
>
>     thisrun.status = 'planned'
>
> and have thisrun's _set_status do side-effects and then the status
> object's setter incorporate the new value as it's new state.
> But the setter functions never seem to get called.
> Am I using "property" wrong?
>
> class Observable:              #("observer" software pattern)

'property' only works with new-style classes.  Try changing to

class Observable(object):

and also make the same change in class Run.


-- 
I don't actually read my hotmail account, but you can replace hotmail with
excite if you really want to reach me.




From james at logicalprogression.net  Tue Aug 17 21:08:05 2004
From: james at logicalprogression.net (James Henderson)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 02:08:05 +0100
Subject: strange problem with def in class
In-Reply-To: <4122A948.3010805@logicalprogression.net>
References: <1092788477.995526@seven.kulnet.kuleuven.ac.be>
	<4122A948.3010805@logicalprogression.net>
Message-ID: <4122ABF5.2070601@logicalprogression.net>

A couple of quick corrections.

James Henderson wrote:

> Hi Johan
> 
> Other variables defined in a class are in a scope that cannot be 
> accessed directly from within a method (Python newish nested scoping 
> only works for functions inside functions).

Actually it works for classes defined inside functions too, but that's 
not relevant here. :)

> Personally I would move your readline() function outside the class to 
> the module level.

This still stands!

> If you want to keep it in the class then either give it a self parameter 
> or add "readline = staticmethod(readline)" after the definition of 
> readline().  Then you can call it from within __init__() as 
> self.readline(filename).

Looking at your code again the static method option is not viable.  Your 
readline() method needs a self parameter because the code you intend to 
put into it refers to self.

J





From tzot at sil-tec.gr  Mon Aug 16 07:12:54 2004
From: tzot at sil-tec.gr (Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:12:54 +0300
Subject: Trouble with file.seek/file.tell on Win32?
References: <16671.45400.965715.943437@enthought.hathway.com>
	<1f7befae04081512496c6f2727@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.1709.1092631063.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <h551i0l9jhb3r72luh66utuol0mm6oair9@4ax.com>

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 00:34:47 -0400, rumours say that Prabhu Ramachandran
<prabhu at aero.iitm.ernet.in> might have written:

>I'm happy to also learn that bad line endings break tell and
>seek.  I guess this is a problem on the mac too where lines end with
>'\r'.  Is this true of OSX?

I have little knowledge of OS/X (just playing around with a friends
Apple laptop, can't remember the type), but I assume that there will not
be a problem with OS/X (and do they use '\r' like in the old MacOS, or
do they respect the Linux heritage and use '\n' now?  maybe a mix?).

The string "hello\nthere\n" written to a *text* file, has:

12 bytes on *nix
14 bytes on Windows/DOS
12 bytes on OS/X

To read the "t" of "there", one first has to:

f.seek(6) on both *nix and OS/X, text or binary file
f.seek(6) on Win text file
f.seek(7) on Win binary file.
-- 
TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best,
"Tssss!" --Brad Pitt as Achilles in unprecedented Ancient Greek


From noone at here.com  Thu Aug 19 14:26:32 2004
From: noone at here.com (M. Clift)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:26:32 +0100
Subject: get last two in a length of unknown length?
References: <cg1494$lvr$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<hU5Vc.478755$Gx4.257516@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <cg2rb2$jj3$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>

Again, thanks Wes, I appreciate it.




From drlinux at columbus.rr.com  Tue Aug 31 17:49:46 2004
From: drlinux at columbus.rr.com (Dave Reed)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:49:46 -0400
Subject: Beeping the console
In-Reply-To: <ch2qnk$9ci$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <ch2qnk$9ci$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <200408311749.46432.drlinux@columbus.rr.com>

On Tuesday 31 August 2004 17:31, Jeffrey Barish wrote:
> What is the easiest way to beep the console from a Python program 
(i.e.,
> to do the same thing as echo -e \a)?
> -- 
> Jeffrey Barish


print '\a'

or if you're on a Unix system and the program is not being run from
the console, you can do something like:

con = open("/dev/tty1", "w")
con.write("\a")
con.close()

/dev/tty1 will probably depend on what time of system you're on.

HTH,
Dave




From ccdetail at gmail.com  Mon Aug  9 23:05:13 2004
From: ccdetail at gmail.com (ccdetail)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 20:05:13 -0700
Subject: pro python paper
Message-ID: <305aa162.0408091905.5bce8f9a@posting.google.com>

http://www.journyx.com/pdf/PythonAtAGlance.pdf

the above paper is a response to some of our prospects complaints

they were asking us why we use python

thought you guys might be interested

http://journyx.com/clf


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Mon Aug 23 11:00:43 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:00:43 GMT
Subject: __name__ becoming read-write?
References: <uutji0h87t24cb1nej03gdggs0hg6eno3l@4ax.com>
	<HBF.20040823p9l@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <3i1ki0pjcpuaob9qh0vuc6934k5esqb41a@4ax.com>

On 23 Aug 2004 16:50:22 +0200, Hallvard B Furuseth
<h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no> wrote:

>Arthur wrote:
>
>> Did I hallucinate something about __name__ becoming read-write?
>
>_Becoming_ read-write?  When was it read-only?
>
>Python 1.5.2 (#1, Jul 14 2004, 20:34:28)  [GCC 3.2.3] on sunos5
>Copyright 1991-1995 Stichting Mathematisch Centrum, Amsterdam
>>>> class foo: pass
>... 
>>>> foo.__name__ = 'bar'
>>>> foo.__module__ = 'baz' 
>>>> foo
><class baz.bar at c5ee0>

Python 2.3.4 (#53, May 25 2004, 21:17:02) [MSC v.1200 32 bit (Intel)]
on win32
>>> def foo():
	pass

>>> foo.__name__='bar'

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<pyshell#3>", line 1, in -toplevel-
    foo.__name__='bar'
TypeError: readonly attribute

I hope I'm not being stupid.

And what's with running 1.5.2 ;)

Art


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 13:37:45 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:37:45 +0200
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
Message-ID: <1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Dan Perl <dperl at rogers.com> wrote:

> Here is a python feature that I would like: to be able to import modules
> from an archive like the jar files in Java.  Maybe a regular tar file?

Python 2.3 lets you import modules from a zipfile.  The zip format is
better than tar when you just need to get one file from it, which is why
java's jar files are also basically zipfiles.

> I am quite new to python so I should ask first whether there is already
> something like that, although I did a search already.  Or maybe such a
> feature has already been discussed somewhere?  If this is an original idea,
> how can I propose it for future releases?

It's there already, and has been for over a year now;-).


Alex


From news at NOwillmcguganSPAM.com  Wed Aug 18 09:11:18 2004
From: news at NOwillmcguganSPAM.com (Will McGugan)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:11:18 +0100
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <41235577$0$190$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>

Lucas Raab wrote:

> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....
> 
> 

I have reached the grand old age of 30.

I think C++ has prematurely aged me, so Im hoping Python can roll back 
the clock.


Will McGugan


From Moiz.Golawala at ge.com  Thu Aug 12 13:57:48 2004
From: Moiz.Golawala at ge.com (Golawala, Moiz M (GE Infrastructure))
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:57:48 -0500
Subject: os.removedirs not working(Thanks)
Message-ID: <4BF8D93CF6F73F4890EB6ED8009ECE191C5CFF@FTWMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com>

Thank you all.. it solves my problem.

Moiz Golawala
GE Infrastructure, Security
Software Engineer
Enterprise Solutions

T 561 994 5972
F 561 994 6572
E moiz.golawala at ge.com 
www.gesecurity.com

791 Park of Commerce Blvd., Suite 100
Boca Raton, FL, 33487, U.S.A.
GE Security, Inc.


-----Original Message-----
From: python-list-bounces+moiz.golawala=ge.com at python.org
[mailto:python-list-bounces+moiz.golawala=ge.com at python.org]On Behalf Of
Christopher T King
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 11:51 AM
To: python-list at python.org
Subject: Re: os.removedirs not working


On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, CptPicard wrote:

> You could use shutil.rmtree : it works fine!

Oh wow, I completely forgot about shutil.  Good stuff, that.

-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From martin at koekenberg.net  Mon Aug 30 18:25:42 2004
From: martin at koekenberg.net (Martin Koekenberg)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 00:25:42 +0200
Subject: TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'NoneType' and
	'str'
References: <cgvtji$729@odah37.prod.google.com>
	<HBF.20040830ykno@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <97a7j0do4k6r4he9gqeb60p1optvcevrgb@4ax.com>

Hello,

Thanks for alle the help.. but it still dosn't work.

How even, the error has changed a bit :

"/usr/local/bin/python" "/usr/local/zope/Zope-2.7.2-0/setup.py" \
            build
--build-base="/usr/local/zope/Zope-2.7.2-0/build-base/python-2.3"
--build-lib="/usr/local/zope/Zope-2.7.2-0/build-base/python-2.3/build-lib"
--build-scripts="/usr/local/zope/Zope-2.7.2-0/build-base/python-2.3/build-scripts"
--build-temp="/usr/local/zope/Zope-2.7.2-0/build-base/python-2.3/build-temp"
running build
running build_py
running build_ext
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/local/zope/Zope-2.7.2-0/setup.py", line 1091, in ?
    distclass=ZopeDistribution,
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/distutils/core.py", line 149, in
setup
    dist.run_commands()
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/distutils/dist.py", line 907, in
run_commands
    self.run_command(cmd)
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/distutils/dist.py", line 927, in
run_command
    cmd_obj.run()
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/distutils/command/build.py", line
107, in run
    self.run_command(cmd_name)
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/distutils/cmd.py", line 333, in
run_command
    self.distribution.run_command(command)
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/distutils/dist.py", line 927, in
run_command
    cmd_obj.run()
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/distutils/command/build_ext.py", line
244, in run
    customize_compiler(self.compiler)
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/distutils/sysconfig.py", line 172, in
customize_compiler
    cc_cmd = cc + ' ' + opt
TypeError: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'NoneType' objects
make: *** [build] Error 1                     

I had an other type error before the env setting :

TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'NoneType' and 'str'

Greetings,

Martin Koekenberg


On 30 Aug 2004 21:31:10 +0200, Hallvard B Furuseth
<h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no> wrote:

>[Brett C.]
>> Set your environment 'CC' environment variable to gcc and it should go
>> away.
>
>[Martin Koekenberg]
>
>How do I set this environmet variable ??
>I don't have a lot of linux experience ;-)
>
>[Brett C.]
>
>> For Bourne-style shells (BASH, ZSH, etc.) ``export CC=gcc`` will do it
>> for the current shell (won't save it for future use, that requires
>> setting it in your shell's config file.
>
>Nitpick: That works for bash and zsh - and therefore for Martin, since
>he uses Linux - but not for plain non-Linux Bourne 'sh'.  The portable
>Bourne way is
>
>  CC=gcc; export CC
>
>> For CSH style I think it is ``setenv CC gcc`` but I am not sure.
>
>That's right.
>
>And the standard way which works for both Bourne and CSH style, but for
>just one command at a time (in this case ./configure), is
>
>  env CC=gcc ./configure



From aquila_deus at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Aug 18 11:21:40 2004
From: aquila_deus at yahoo.co.uk (Aquila Deus)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 08:21:40 -0700
Subject: Swing/Metalworks for Python
References: <41224ea4$1@news.broadpark.no> <cfvaj0$n37$01$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <c5cfac8f.0408180721.6ccccfe9@posting.google.com>

"Diez B. Roggisch" <deetsNOSPAM at web.de> wrote in message news:<cfvaj0$n37$01$1 at news.t-online.com>...
> Gisle Vanem wrote:
> 
> > I was quite impressed by this toolkit in the latest Java SDK 1.5
> > (not sure if it's new in this version or not). But are there any similar
> > toolkits for Python that allows switching Look & Feel and Themes
> > in the same way?
> 
> qt - free for *nixes, commercially available for windows. And the best
> toolkit I've worked with.

There is a non-commercial version (3.1) that comes with a qt book.


From follower at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 09:32:26 2004
From: follower at gmail.com (Follower)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 06:32:26 -0700
Subject: ANN: libgmail 0.0.8 - Gmail access via Python - POP3 Proxy added!
Message-ID: <mailman.2171.1093229311.5135.python-announce-list@python.org>

libgmail -- Python binding for Google's Gmail service

<http://libgmail.sf.net/>

The `libgmail` project is a pure Python binding to provide access to
Google's Gmail web-mail service.

The library currently ships with a demonstration utility to archive
messages from a Gmail account into mbox files, suitable for importing
into a local email client.

Also includes a demonstration utility that acts as a SMTP proxy to
allow mail to be sent from any standard mail client that uses SMTP
(e.g. Mail.app, Mozilla etc). (Now handles attachments.)

New demonstration utility acts as a POP3 proxy to allow mail to be
retrieved from any standard mail client that uses POP3 (e.g. Mail.app,
Mozilla etc).

Features demonstration utility to provide access to Gmail message
attachments via a download-only FTP proxy--this allows retrieval of
suitably marked attachments by a standard FTP client. Utilize more
of your Gmail space!

License: GPL 2.0 (gmailftpd.py/gmailpopd.py are dual licensed with PSF)

Major changes since 0.0.7:

 *  Fixed login to work again after it was broken by a Gmail change.

 *  Added trash/delete message thread & trash/delete single message
    functionality. (By request.)

 *  POP3 proxy server demo. (By request.)

 *  Added `GmailLoginFailure` exception to enable tidier handling of
    login failures (which could be bad username/password or a Gmail
    change).


<p><a href="http://libgmail.sf.net/">libgmail 0.0.8</a> - The
`libgmail` project is a pure Python binding to provide access to
Google's Gmail web-mail service; includes SMTP, POP3 & FTP
proxies. (23-Aug-04)</p>


From theller at python.net  Fri Aug 20 17:57:32 2004
From: theller at python.net (Thomas Heller)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 23:57:32 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<d22692a3.0408201107.46b5ca52@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <657d8oc3.fsf@python.net>

google at daishi.fastmail.fm (daishi) writes:

> C1 C1 C1

Hm, I like the pie syntx, so

A1 A1 A1

(is A2 really different from A1?)

> If we are allowed to make negative votes:
>
> -J2 -J2 -J2
>
> I personally find J2 worse than the current pie
> syntax. Something that looks odd and does something
> odd seems the lesser evil vs something that looks
> normal yet does something odd.

Exactly my feeling.

Thomas


From jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu  Thu Aug 19 12:38:20 2004
From: jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu (John Hunter)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:38:20 -0500
Subject: My only complaint about Python
In-Reply-To: <cg2ko0$2jl$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net> (David Fraser's message of
	"Thu, 19 Aug 2004 18:33:03 +0200")
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<cg2ko0$2jl$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
Message-ID: <m2zn4rytfn.fsf@mother.paradise.lost>

>>>>> "David" == David Fraser <davidf at sjsoft.com> writes:


    David> I agree. I don't mind it being built with Visual Studio,
    David> but out of the box mingw compatibility would be cool...  --
    David> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

The only thing that needs to be done for mingw compatibility is to
build the import lib, right?  It would be nice if the win32 python
shipped with that; it's only 37K gzipped.  

I have a batch script to create libpython23.a, for those who are
interested.  It requires pexports-0.42h from
http://starship.python.net/crew/kernr/mingw32/pexports-0.42h.zip
extracted to C:\Program Files\pexports-0.42h, and of course mingw.

Your paths may vary...

    copy c:\windows\system32\python23.dll .
    c:\progra~1\pexports-0.42h\bin\pexports python23.dll > python23.def
    c:\MinGW\bin\dlltool --dllname python23.dll --def python23.def --output-lib libpython23.a

    copy libpython23.a c:\python23\libs
    del python23.dll
    del libpython23.a



From tdelaney at avaya.com  Thu Aug  5 22:42:55 2004
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy))
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 12:42:55 +1000
Subject: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was Decorator syntax)
Message-ID: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01C8C584@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

You missed mine ;)

+1

Tim Delaney


From heikowu at ceosg.de  Thu Aug 12 02:34:25 2004
From: heikowu at ceosg.de (Heiko Wundram)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:34:25 +0200
Subject: Arranging a dependency tree
In-Reply-To: <61ESc.3831$%B.1788@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>
References: <6ccff37a.0408111831.6eb25a4e@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1547.1092280419.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<61ESc.3831$%B.1788@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <200408120834.25714.heikowu@ceosg.de>

Am Donnerstag, 12. August 2004 08:22 schrieb Bryan Olson:
> I'm sure Heiko actually knew this, but being the kind of smart-
> ass I am, I can't resist the chance to correct him on things he
> already knew twice in one day.  Earlier he wrote "large prime"
> where he clearly meant "large integer".  I trust he will take
> this post in the spirit in which it is intended.

I bow before the master. ;-)

Heiko.


From PPNTWIMBXFFC at spammotel.com  Thu Aug 26 10:50:26 2004
From: PPNTWIMBXFFC at spammotel.com (Marco Aschwanden)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:50:26 +0200
Subject: How to generically transform a list?
Message-ID: <opsdcguchn35jo5o@news.gmane.org>


Suppose you have a list of lists:

theList = [['a',1,11,'aa'], ['b',2,22,'bb'],['c',3,33,'cc']]

I would like to have a GENERIC way how to turn this list of list into 
another list of list.
- A user can choose which columns she wants
- A user can select the order of the columns

For example:
The user wants columns: 1,2
The user wants it to be ordered: 2,1

A non generic approach would maybe do the following:

>>> theList = [['a',1,11,'aa'], ['b',2,22,'bb'],['c',3,33,'cc']]
>>> new_list = [[row[2], row[1]] for row in theList]
>>> new_list
[[11, 1], [22, 2], [33, 3]]

I am sure there must be a rather elegant generic approach, which is 
lurking somewhere to be realeased.

Thanks for any hint in advance,
Marco



From duncan.booth at invalid.invalid  Tue Aug 10 11:26:38 2004
From: duncan.booth at invalid.invalid (Duncan Booth)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 15:26:38 GMT
Subject: super and __init__ arguments (Was: Re: Multiple inheritance
	with a common base class)
References: <1092137872.2624.16.camel@dicaprio.akademie1.de>
	<mailman.1439.1092140352.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Xns95418AB04D977duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
	<1092142873.2624.43.camel@dicaprio.akademie1.de>
	<mailman.1447.1092145129.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Xns9541A709ACEBEduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>

Markus Bertheau <twanger at bluetwanger.de> wrote in 
news:mailman.1447.1092145129.5135.python-list at python.org:

> Now how do I make the following work:
> 
> class CommonBase(object):
>     def __init__(self, c):
>         pass
>   
> class LeafA(CommonBase):
>     def __init__(self, c, a):
>         super(LeafA, self).__init__(c)
>   
> class LeafB(CommonBase):
>     def __init__(self, c, b):
>         super(LeafB, self).__init__(c)
>   
> class Multi(LeafA, LeafB):
>     def __init__(self, c, a, b):
>         super(Multi, self).__init__(c, a, b)
>   
> m = Multi(0, 1, 2)
> 

The best way is to use keyword arguments:

class CommonBase(object):
    def __init__(self, c):
        pass
  
class LeafA(CommonBase):
    def __init__(self, a, **kw):
        super(LeafA, self).__init__(**kw)
  
class LeafB(CommonBase):
    def __init__(self, b, **kw):
        super(LeafB, self).__init__(**kw)
  
class Multi(LeafA, LeafB):
    def __init__(self, **kw):
        super(Multi, self).__init__(**kw)
  
m = Multi(c=0, a=1, b=2)


From shalabh at cafepy.com  Tue Aug 10 23:26:38 2004
From: shalabh at cafepy.com (Shalabh Chaturvedi)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 20:26:38 -0700
Subject: Static method object not callable
References: <CceSc.10654$nx2.3040@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <cfc37r$gkn$1@sea.gmane.org>

Edward Diener wrote:

> This simple code example gives me the message, "TypeError: 'staticmethod'
> object is not callable".
> 
> class X(object):
>   def Y(x):
>     print x
>   Y = staticmethod(Y)
>   ad = { 1 : Y }
>   def Z(self):
>     self.ad[1](3)
> x = X()
> x.Z()
> print "Done."
> 
> I know there must be a way to have a class attribute reference a static
> method, and then call that static method through the reference, so if
> anyone can correct this it would be appreciated.

A staticmethod has to be accessed from the class or an instance. But you can
put the 'bare' function in your dictionary before you make a staticmethod
out of it:

class X(object):
  def Y(x):
    print x
  ad = { 1 : Y }
  Y = staticmethod(Y)
  def Z(self):
    self.ad[1](3)
x = X()
x.Z()
print "Done."

This prints:

3
Done.

HTH,
Shalabh

        



From raims at dot.com  Sat Aug  7 13:06:57 2004
From: raims at dot.com (Lawrence Oluyede)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 19:06:57 +0200
Subject: Importance of C# (was Re: IronPython-0.6 is now available!)
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>	<ce9cp3$g39$1@bagan.srce.hr>
	<5dydnZSDZaARoZXcRVn-ug@powergate.ca>	<1n5z28erh2m3u.dlg@baczek.net.invalid>	<FvCdnVnESJR0ZpXcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.921.1091114694.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<537ea4cd.0408070757.14790cfe@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <h4set5mw4l62.ingpt1u5jtjd$.dlg@40tude.net>

In data 7 Aug 2004 08:57:56 -0700, ziller ha scritto:

> It'll be there for 2.0.  And the implementation is superb (much like
> Eiffel's generics)

I don't want to start a religion war, since I also develop with C# but I
don't see the "superb implementation", and to be honest I think it will
mess up the code more and more because of new keywords, new constructs and
so on. I'm not saying that generics has to be dropped but since you are on
a Python NG I think that your are clever enough to see what the limits of
C# are and why generics are getting all this hype

bye!

-- 
Lawrence (l dot oluyede at virgilio dot it)
"In IE we trust"


From mh at dreadnok.pixar.com  Tue Aug  3 19:08:36 2004
From: mh at dreadnok.pixar.com (Mark Harrison)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 23:08:36 GMT
Subject: guide to introspecting python?
Message-ID: <UVUPc.6122$AY5.373@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>

What's a good document to read in order to understand some
of python's introspective functions?

I'm trying to recurse through a module and print information
about its contents.  dir() does something similar to what
I have in mind, but it's documented to be more for human
interaction than definitive programmatic correctness,
so I'd like to call or look at whatever it's using.

This bit of code never finishes because dir(something)
and dir(something.__call__) return the same thing.

def rdir(item, v=""):
    print "%s%s"%(v,item)
    for i in dir(item):
        rdir(i, v+"    ")

import os
rdir(os)


Any help/pointers appreciated!

Thanks,
Mark

PS, you will probably recognize this as my attempt to
generate programatically the module/function/parameter
index I previously asked about...

-- 
Mark Harrison
Pixar Animation Studios


From nomail at nospam.no  Sun Aug  8 03:51:26 2004
From: nomail at nospam.no (Dominic)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 09:51:26 +0200
Subject: decorators vs GIL
In-Reply-To: <4115a8aa$0$19945$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
References: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>
	<mailman.1345.1091924284.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4115a8aa$0$19945$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <cf4m06$1dh$1@news.uni-kl.de>

> threads: make a heavy process, doing a
> single event loop. 
Well, often chaining generators is good enough!

Another -- probably not so good solution is to
do an interface specification and generate
code with it. "Active Tasks" could be
automatically _inverted_ , depending on your choice.
Michael Jackson (hee, not the singer) has
done this in the 70s in COBOL. Maybe
you have heard of JSD or JSP ;-)
(JSP (Jackson Structured Programming) and
JSD (Jackson System Development))
In JSD you model entities as processes. (CSP)
(Yes it is OOP analysis ;-) )
Afterwards you map processes too processors.
Probably you have only one, so all
processes but one must be inverted.
However a scheduler solution is
also possible.

Maybe someone comes up with a @decorator
solution, which does invert active
tasks on the fly :-)

Ciao,
  Dominic


From fredrik at pythonware.com  Fri Aug 27 11:03:01 2004
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:03:01 +0200
Subject: PEP-0318
References: <41122FC2.1080608@interlink.com.au><mailman.1251.1091764482.5135.python-list@python.org><4114152f@nntp.zianet.com>	<aIOdnRybBucMsIncRVn-gA@comcast.com><4116bc20$1@nntp.zianet.com><mailman.1369.1092015284.5135.python-list@python.org><c8neh0t41km1h79ufo4vkrhh78dt27vlok@4ax.com><6NCdncg4ssq28orcRVn-uQ@powergate.ca><fkteh0pvalomnrm7tk8ial4sgjaj9jjkj8@4ax.com>	<411a5cee$1@nntp.zianet.com><mailman.1518.1092247596.5135.python-list@python.org>	<411a9a7f$1@nntp.zianet.com><mailman.1538.1092263133.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<411ac17f@nntp.zianet.com>
Message-ID: <cgnibq$g20$1@sea.gmane.org>

Mark Bottjer wrote:

>>>Indeed it is. And that fact bears on this conversion how?
>>
>> that's what a decorator does, of course.
>
> No it isn't. A decorator queues a function to be called, on something not yet defined, after that 
> something gets defined.

uhuh.  and what do you think the "foo" in foo(bar) does?

you don't really know how Python works, do you?

</F> 





From bj_666 at gmx.net  Wed Aug 18 15:18:26 2004
From: bj_666 at gmx.net (Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 21:18:26 +0200
Subject: Newbie question about file input
References: <cfqj3s$cti$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <cft2f9$ii0$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408171010590.548-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
	<cft6vv$khm$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
	<4122328e$0$8079$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<cfvtf9$sku$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.18.19.18.24.431527@gmx.net>

In <cfvtf9$sku$1 at mozo.cc.purdue.edu>, Aaron Deskins wrote:

> Perhaps I should have been more specific. What does python store when 
> you read a blank line? Nothing? A null variable? A '\n'?

It reads '\n' as that's, more or less, the content in the text file for
that line.  In the file there may be some other platform specific byte
(combination) to denote a line ending.

> How about this:
> 
> import string
> import sys
> zf=open(sys.argv[1],'r')
> it = 0
> while 1:
>      line = zf.readline()
>      print line
>      rs = line.split()
>      print rs
>      if rs[0]== '[Event':
>          it+=1
>          print it
>      if not line:
>          break
> zf.close()
> 
> This fails when it tries the "if rs[0]== '[Event':" statement. rs[0] 
> doesn't exist (or is blank?) for a blank line in my input file.

Let's fire up the interpreter and see why:

  >>> line = "\n"
  >>> line
  '\n'
  >>> rs = line.split()
  >>> rs
  []
  >>> rs[0]
  Traceback (most recent call last):
    File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
  IndexError: list index out of range

A line without anything but whitespace characters "splits" to an empty
list.

> Another code:
> 
> import string
> import sys
> zf=open(sys.argv[1],'r')
> it = 0
> while 1:
>      line = zf.readline()
>      it+=1
>      if not line:
>          break
> zf.close()
> print it
> 
> This only ends when the end of file is reached. Why not when a blank 
> line is read? How does python treat the variable line (after a readline) 
> differently after a blank line or the last line of the file?

As said before: a blank line is not really empty but contains a newline
character. When the file ends, readline() returns an empty string.

Ciao,
	Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch



From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 17:01:49 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 23:01:49 +0200
Subject: PEP 322 - alternate method names
References: <mailman.2454.1093539260.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1gj5e1c.yrievcmt2xkpN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Robert Brewer <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote:

> AC wrote:
> > >From the PEP 322 page:
> > 
> > "This PEP has been conditionally accepted for Py2.4. The condition
> > means that if the function is found to be useless, it can be removed
> > before Py2.4b1"
> > 
> > Is there still hope at least for an alternative method name that is
> > not past tense?
> 
> "reversed" doesn't have to be a past tense verb in English; it's more of
> an adjective, modifying its target. "X is a reversed sequence".
> 
> > flip, transpose, invert, swap... 
> 
> The problem with using a "present tense verb" is that it implies that
> the original object is mutated.

So what about a GERUND, 'reversing' or the like, as somebody else just
mentioned?  THAT would be cool, IMHO (not that I think any name change
stands much of a chance at the stage...).  The convention of using
gerunds for iterators and generators seems good in general; I wish we
had 'enumerating' rather than 'enumerate' and, say, itertools.zipping
rather than itertools.izip.  Ah well, sigh, probably too late by now --
ah well indeed!


Alex


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 28 03:02:12 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:02:12 +0200
Subject: Iteration over Lists and Strings
References: <cUSXc.56768$xi6.42946@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<mailman.2552.1093664310.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgpa73$oa5$1@news-reader2.wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <1gj80xs.1cfownoqz4m9N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Michel Claveau - abstraction m?ta-galactique non triviale en fuite
perp?tuelle. <unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom> wrote:

> and enumerate is more fast than index.

Oh, absolutely.  sequence.index(anitem) takes time proportional to
len(sequence), for the average item.  If you repeat that operation for
all items in sequence, you end up with total time proportional to the
SQUARE of len(sequence) -- a LOT, for long sequences,  enumerate itself
takes constant time, and looping over all items that enumerate yields
takes time proportional to the number of items (costant time per item).

If you're familiar with big-O notation, we're talking O(N) vs O(N
square)... not the kind of performance issue one can ignore, for long
sequences, because the difference in performance keeps going up and up
without bounds as the sequence grows longer.


Alex


From sandskyfly at hotmail.com  Thu Aug  5 19:04:00 2004
From: sandskyfly at hotmail.com (Sandy Norton)
Date: 5 Aug 2004 16:04:00 -0700
Subject: tweaking @decorator syntax
References: <b03e80d.0408040809.66c50ecf@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <b03e80d.0408051504.19e33991@posting.google.com>

Here are some more variations.

Please copy/paste the code below into your favourite python editor and see 
how each syntactical variation of the decorator code reads, and how quickly 
you grok its structure and meaning.


#----------------------------------------------------------------------
# current syntax 2.3 syntax
#----------------------------------------------------------------------

class Klass:
    def __init__(self, name):
        '''class initialization
        '''
        self.name = name


    def statmethod1(x):
        '''does something to x
        '''
        return x
    statmethod1 = staticmethod(statmethod1)
 
    def statmethod2(y):
        '''does something to y
        '''
        return y
    statmethod2 = staticmethod(statmethod2)


    def clsmethod1(cls):
        '''does something to cls
        '''
        return cls
    clsmethod1 = classmethod(clsmethod1)

    def clsmethod2(cls):
        '''does something to cls
        '''
        return cls
    clsmethod2 = classmethod(clsmethod2)


    def go(obj):
        '''synced obj is activated
        '''
        obj.activate()
    go = synchronized(go)
    

    def f(x,y):
        '''tests two ints for equality
        '''
        return x == y
    f = accepts(f, (int, int))
    f = returns(f, (str))
        



#----------------------------------------------------------------------
# @decorator syntax proposed for 2.4 
#----------------------------------------------------------------------

class Klass:
    def __init__(self, name):
        '''class initialization
        '''
        self.name = name
        
    @staticmethod
    def statmethod1(x):
        '''does something to x
        '''
        return x

    @staticmethod    
    def statmethod2(y):
        '''does something to y
        '''
        return y
            
    @classmethod
    def clsmethod1(cls):
        '''does something to cls
        '''
        return cls

    @classmethod
    def clsmethod2(cls):
        '''does something to cls
        '''
        return cls

    @synchronized
    def go(obj):
        '''synced obj is activated
        '''
        obj.activate()
    
    @accepts(int, int)
    @returns(bool)
    def f(x,y):
        '''tests two ints for equality
        '''
        return x == y



#----------------------------------------------------------------------
# Nested, @decorator syntax proposed for 2.4 
#----------------------------------------------------------------------

class Klass:
    def __init__(self, name):
        '''class initialization
        '''
        self.name = name
        
    @staticmethod
        def statmethod1(x):
            '''does something to x
            '''
            return x
    
        def statmethod2(y):
            '''does something to y
            '''
            return y
            
    @classmethod
        def clsmethod1(cls):
            '''does something to cls
            '''
            return cls
    
        def clsmethod2(cls):
            '''does something to cls
            '''
            return cls

    @synchronized
        def go(obj):
            '''synced obj is activated
            '''
            obj.activate()
    
    @accepts(int, int)
    @returns(bool)
        def f(x,y):
            '''tests two ints for equality
            '''
            return x == y


#----------------------------------------------------------------------
# Nested, minimal decorator syntax proposed for 2.4 
#----------------------------------------------------------------------

class Klass:
    def __init__(self, name):
        '''class initialization
        '''
        self.name = name
        
    staticmethod:
        def statmethod1(x):
            '''does something to x
            '''
            return x
    
        def statmethod2(y):
            '''does something to y
            '''
            return y
            
    classmethod:
        def clsmethod1(cls):
            '''does something to cls
            '''
            return cls
    
        def clsmethod2(cls):
            '''does something to cls
            '''
            return cls

    synchronized:
        def go(obj):
            '''synced obj is activated
            '''
            obj.activate()
    
    accepts(int, int), returns(bool):
        def f(x,y):
            '''tests two ints for equality
            '''
            return x == y


#----------------------------------------------------------------------
# Nested, 'decorate' keyword syntax proposed for 2.4 
#----------------------------------------------------------------------

class Klass:
    def __init__(self, name):
        '''class initialization
        '''
        self.name = name
        
    decorate staticmethod:
        def statmethod1(x):
            '''does something to x
            '''
            return x
    
        def statmethod2(y):
            '''does something to y
            '''
            return y
            
    decorate classmethod:
        def clsmethod1(cls):
            '''does something to cls
            '''
            return cls
    
        def clsmethod2(cls):
            '''does something to cls
            '''
            return cls

    decorate synchronized:
        def go(obj):
            '''synced obj is activated
            '''
            obj.activate()
    
    decorate accepts(int, int), returns(bool):
        def f(x,y):
            '''tests two ints for equality
            '''
            return x == y
    

#----------------------------------------------------------------------
# Nested, |decorator| syntax proposed for 2.4 
#----------------------------------------------------------------------

class Klass:
    def __init__(self, name):
        '''class initialization
        '''
        self.name = name
        
    |staticmethod|
        def statmethod1(x):
            '''does something to x
            '''
            return x
    
        def statmethod2(y):
            '''does something to y
            '''
            return y
            
    |classmethod|
        def clsmethod1(cls):
            '''does something to cls
            '''
            return cls
    
        def clsmethod2(cls):
            '''does something to cls
            '''
            return cls

    |synchronized|
        def go(obj):
            '''synced obj is activated
            '''
            obj.activate()
    
    |accepts(int, int), returns(bool)|
        def f(x,y):
            '''tests two ints for equality
            '''
            return x == y


From joewong at mango.cc  Fri Aug 20 02:40:27 2004
From: joewong at mango.cc (Joe Wong)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:40:27 +0800
Subject: Is HTTPSConnection thread-safe?
Message-ID: <027501c48680$950cb3b0$7f00a8c0@scl01.siliconcreation.com>

Hi,

 I have a small program using HTTPSConnection to issue a POST on the server. When multiple threads of the same program is running, I got the error:

Exception in thread Thread-3:
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "C:\PYTHON23\lib\threading.py", line 436, in __bootstrap
    self.run()
  File "C:\PYTHON23\lib\threading.py", line 416, in run
    self.__target(*self.__args, **self.__kwargs)
  File "mcstest.py", line 27, in thread_func
    conn.request("POST", CGI_PATH, params, headers)
  File "c:\python23\lib\httplib.py", line 718, in request
    self._send_request(method, url, body, headers)
  File "c:\python23\lib\httplib.py", line 739, in _send_request
    self.endheaders()
  File "c:\python23\lib\httplib.py", line 712, in endheaders
    self._send_output()
  File "c:\python23\lib\httplib.py", line 597, in _send_output
    self.send(msg)
  File "c:\python23\lib\httplib.py", line 564, in send
    self.connect()
  File "c:\python23\lib\httplib.py", line 985, in connect
    ssl = socket.ssl(sock, self.key_file, self.cert_file)
  File "C:\Python23\lib\socket.py", line 73, in ssl
    return _realssl(sock, keyfile, certfile)
sslerror: SSL_CTX_new error

in random order. Is there any fix / patches for this?

Regards,

- Joe
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From mwilson at the-wire.com  Mon Aug 16 13:21:02 2004
From: mwilson at the-wire.com (Mel Wilson)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:21:02 -0400
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<h4nph0lprkrhj95tecvtmkpl5hm52815j3@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <+zOIBls/Kj3Q089yn@the-wire.com>

In article <h4nph0lprkrhj95tecvtmkpl5hm52815j3 at 4ax.com>,
Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>On 13 Aug 2004 07:15:14 -0700, beliavsky at aol.com declaimed the following
>in comp.lang.python:
>	Teach them FORTRAN-IV...
>
>	A source line is limited to 80 characters
>	Statements start in column 7
>	Statements end in column 72 (or was it 71)

   Column 72 is the last one available for statment text,
according to this IBM 888157 card here.


        Regards.        Mel.


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 08:27:52 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:27:52 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed204082604056ec45a47@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>
	<e69d3ed204082604056ec45a47@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cgkl07$3lb$3@sea.gmane.org>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:28:14 +0200, Paolo Veronelli
> <paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it> wrote:
> 
> ignored). Do you intend that the double-under names would also be
> looked for in the same scopes? That is, what will this code do?
> 
> def foo():
>     __name__ = '%s_banana'%(__name__) 
> 

/exactly/ the same thing as

     def foo(): pass

     foo.__name__ = '%s_banana'%(foo.__name__)


Paul



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sat Aug  7 16:40:32 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 06:40:32 +1000
Subject: Decorator syntax
In-Reply-To: <2nkk3aF1ph3dU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <mailman.1173.1091670172.5135.python-list@python.org><38ednYT1NLz1P4zcRVn-uA@powergate.ca><JEiQc.16955$_25.574@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<mailman.1182.1091694251.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<QzyQc.1782$KZ2.535@fe2.texas.rr.com> <2nkk3aF1ph3dU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204080713403c9be669@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 20:15:01 +0200, Reinhold Birkenfeld
<reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net> wrote:
> But I fear that without a formal "voting" Python will go the pragmatic
> way - that is, keep @ as it's already implemented.

Sorry - but would "formal voting" be a good way to design a language?
Based on various languages that have gone through a committee type
process, I'd have to say "god no".

> So what would be the most effective way to notify the developers that
> (I'm guessing) 90% of the Python community dislike the @ syntax and want
> an other?

As I've said (repeatedly) - this isn't a popularity contest. The point is to 
produce the best technical result. If you have a better solution, put together
a case for it, and convince Guido.

I'd also question how you can be so sure that "90% of the community
dislike it" -
over on python-dev, there's been quite a number of people who've actually
tried the syntax, and found it to be quite good. This includes me - 
when I first saw it, I recoiled, but after using it, I find it pretty good. 
Please, please - download a2. Try the decorator syntax out (or look at
test_decorators, or the hopefully-finished-with-the-rewrite-soon PEP318
(which I'll also post here) for examples.

Anthony


From justin__devine at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 11 10:29:36 2004
From: justin__devine at hotmail.com (JDevine)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 07:29:36 -0700
Subject: calling an event from within a program
Message-ID: <f9d01b73.0408110629.449fa572@posting.google.com>

Can someone tell me the proper syntax to create an event from within a
program

here is my example code.  I have Checkboxes and Radioboxes operating
on the same Text Control.  What I want is when the Checkbox is
unchecked for the EVT_RADIOBOX evt to run therefore populating the
text control with the value that was left on it when it was disabled. 
So what I really want to do is run a EVT_RADIOBOX from a checkbox. 
any suggestions?



def EvtCheckBox3(event):
            print ck3.GetValue()
            
            if ck3.GetValue() == True:
                t2.Clear()
                t2.SetValue("blah blah")
                t2.SetEditable(False)
                ck1.SetValue(False)
                ck2.SetValue(False)
                rb.Enable(False)
                
            else:
                t2.Clear()
                t2.SetValue("blah blah blah")
                t2.SetEditable(True)
                rb.Enable(True)
                
              
        
        ck3 = wx.CheckBox(self, -1, "blah blah blah", (255, 60), (170,
20), wx.NO_BORDER)
        self.Bind(wx.EVT_CHECKBOX, EvtCheckBox3, ck3)
        
        #Create a radio box 
        def EvtRadioBox(event):
            print event.GetInt()
            if event.GetInt() == 0:
                 t2.Clear()
                 t2.SetValue("Blah Blah Blah")
                 t2.SetEditable(True)
                 
            elif event.GetInt() == 1:
                 t2.Clear()
                 t2.SetValue("blah blah blah")
                 t2.SetEditable(False)
                 
            elif event.GetInt() == 2:
                 t2.Clear()
                 t2.SetValue("blah blah blah")
                 t2.SetEditable(False)

............and elif for each position in the radiobox and finally
creating the radiobox and the binding

        sitelist = ['blah', 'ying', 'yang']

        sizer = wx.BoxSizer(wx.HORIZONTAL)

        rb = wx.RadioBox(
                self, -1, "My Radiobox", (10, 215), (425, 70),
                sitelist, 5, wx.RA_SPECIFY_COLS
                )
        
        self.Bind(wx.EVT_RADIOBOX, EvtRadioBox, rb)


From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Sun Aug  8 23:55:17 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 22:55:17 -0500
Subject: how many bytes in an int
Message-ID: <9ACRc.1523$bJ2.9739@news1.mts.net>

Hello,
   I was wondering if I could control how many bytes are in an int and 
the byte order.  In C/C++ I can use int32 but how do I do this in 
python?  How can I control byte order?


From tmohr at s.netic.de  Sun Aug  1 13:07:53 2004
From: tmohr at s.netic.de (Torsten Mohr)
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 19:07:53 +0200
Subject: read/write XML
Message-ID: <cej819$ad4$1@schleim.qwe.de>

Hi,

i just took a look into the python documentation regarding XML.
XMLDOM look quite big, so i took another look at "minidom".

So is minidom the preferred way to go to read an XML, handle
its data and also write XML?

In the example (13.7.2, SLideshow) the structure seems to be
read into a "dom", but to check its structure against some
criteria seems to be completely missing, e.g.:

- only defined elements used
- at least one slide in the slideshow
- others ...

How can i check a "dom" against these criteria?


Best regards,
Torsten.



From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug  9 10:36:14 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 09 Aug 2004 14:36:14 GMT
Subject: how many bytes in an int
References: <9ACRc.1523$bJ2.9739@news1.mts.net>
	<4116f8ee$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<FADRc.1532$bJ2.9871@news1.mts.net>
	<41170cd1$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<41171116$0$8079$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<41172C9A.2020301@jessikat.fsnet.co.uk>
Message-ID: <41178bde$0$8077$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-09, Robin Becker <robin at SPAMREMOVEjessikat.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2004-08-09, Grant Edwards <grante at visi.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>The struct module is the only thing I know about.  If you're
>>>worried about the "C" types in the struct module changing
>>>underneat you, you could do a pure Python implimentation of
>>>"python-int" to/from DWORD. It's utterly trivial and shouldn't
>>>take more than one or two lines of code.
>> 
>> 
>> def toLittleEndianDWORD(i):
>>     return ''.join(map(chr,[x&0xff for x in [i,i>>8,i>>16,i>>24]]))
>> 
>> def fromLittleEndianDWORD(s):
>>     return ord(s[0]) + (ord(s[1])<<8) + (ord(s[2])<<16) + (ord(s[3])<<24)
>> 
>
> this simple code will give warnings in 2.3,


> I think struct is really needed.

Like the man said, "struct" doesn't convert to-from integers of
specified byte lengths.  All it has are the C types "int"
"long" "long long", etc.  There is no portable way using struct
to request a 4-byte integer.

> >>> toLittleEndianDWORD(-1)
> '\xff\xff\xff\xff'
> >>> fromLittleEndianDWORD(toLittleEndianDWORD(-1))
> __main__:2: FutureWarning: x<<y losing bits or changing sign will return 
> a long in Python 2.4 and up
> -1

Hopefully that can be fixed?  Python integer objects seem to
get more difficult to work with every year. ;) A few weeks
back, somebody posted code for fixed length Python integer
objects.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  YOU PICKED KARL
                                  at               MALDEN'S NOSE!!
                               visi.com            


From matt at downwithspammers-mengland.net  Mon Aug 16 19:00:49 2004
From: matt at downwithspammers-mengland.net (Matt)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:00:49 -0500
Subject: GNU Mailman on Windows XP testing machine?
Message-ID: <a0f2i05pn7p841u8smci5mscbr222gi4d9@4ax.com>

Hello,

I'm trying to hack up a GNU Mailman (and other stuff--XAMPP, phpbb,
Moodle, postNuke, mail server, etc) configuration on my laptop as a
testing/staging area for my srever with the same stuff.

So far I'm able to get everything to work ok (even the mail server
with Mercury Mail packaged in XAMPP) except for the GNU Mailman stuff.
I can build it ok but I'm having trouble getting the mailman account
to login properly and some other stuff (that seems minor).

Before I proceeded further, I thought I would post here to see if
anyone else has had experience doing this??

fyi: I'm using the following instructions (they seem to be a little
outdated for Mailman 2.1.5) for Mailman installation on Windows:

http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq05.002.htp

Note also that the instructions are for Windows 2000 and not Win XP.
Also note that I'm trying to use Apache (from XAMPP) instead of
Windows IIS web server.

-Matt
--
Remove the obvious text (including the dash) to email me.


From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Tue Aug 31 18:10:46 2004
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 15:10:46 -0700
Subject: What GCC version had <stdint.h> defined?
In-Reply-To: <4130b79a$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
References: <412e39d1$1@nntp0.pdx.net> <412E55A9.9070400@v.loewis.de>
	<412e70d3$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
	<412eca05$0$24800$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<4130b79a$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
Message-ID: <4134f8c0$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

I've submitted patch # 1020042 for this problem.


From paddy3118 at netscape.net  Tue Aug 17 15:23:40 2004
From: paddy3118 at netscape.net (Paddy McCarthy)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 12:23:40 -0700
Subject: How big can a Python program be?
References: <903b3fba.0408170333.49ce3944@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <2ae25c6b.0408171123.6e0f4a71@posting.google.com>

vronskij at post.sk wrote in message news:<903b3fba.0408170333.49ce3944 at posting.google.com>...
> Hi,
> 
> A C program can be hundreds of thousands lines of code big.
> C++ millions.
> 
> How about Python?
> 
> Suppose , you are a sole programmer (lonewolf). How many lines can one handle?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> jan bodnar

Well, heres my quarter-million line Python 'Program' executing


pad at Williams-McCarthy:/tmp$ python -c 'print "x=0"
for i in xrange(2**18):print "x+=",`i`
print "print x"' > silly.py
pad at Williams-McCarthy:/tmp$ wc -l silly.py
262146 silly.py
pad at Williams-McCarthy:/tmp$ nice python silly.py
34359607296


It did start to swap but didn't take too long to finish on my 256Meg
Debian Linux, Athlon 1470MHz  machine

:-)  Pad.


From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Thu Aug 19 12:18:02 2004
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:18:02 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1937.1092903657.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1937.1092903657.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4124d4a4$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

Mike Brenner wrote:

> I was born about 10,000 years ago and I used to
> program computers made of human beings who
> were aligned in tiers. The bottom tier counted
> the grains in the baskets. The next tier
> counted the baskets in the barn, then the
> number of brans in each country.
> 
Don't laugh.  I met a woman roughly my age (53 now)
whose mother was a programmer at los Alamos (or was
it Trinity?) -- she programmed rooms of people
running mechanical calculators (calculate this, if
a > b, pass your results right, otherwise, ...)

Scott David Daniels
Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org


From firemoth at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 14:32:22 2004
From: firemoth at gmail.com (Timothy Fitz)
Date: 14 Aug 2004 11:32:22 -0700
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
Message-ID: <972ec5bd.0408141032.385fe115@posting.google.com>

It seems to me that in python, generators are not truly coroutines. I
do not understand why. What I see is that generators are used almost
exclusively for generation of lists just-in-time. Side effects are
frowned upon. Coroutines, in contrast, are like split functions where
side effects are often as important or more important than return
values. I am currently writing a real time strategy game where I have
visual effects and use generators as coroutines which yield after
processing a single frame of the effect. I can easily make an object
rotate indefinitely with a scant four or five lines of code, all of
which is in one place. So knowing that the difference between a
generator and a coroutine is minor, I come (in a very roundabout way)
to my issue. Why can I use "return" without an expression and it
implicitly returns None but I can't do the same thing with "yield" ?


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 12:53:09 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: 5 Aug 2004 09:53:09 -0700
Subject: Decorator syntax (was Re: PEP 318 - PyFIT comments)
References: <mailman.1162.1091660561.5135.python-list@python.org>	<slrnch2rs1.6ei.ressler@cheetah.jpl.nasa.gov>	<1646998998.20040804190026@MailBlocks.com>
	<mailman.1168.1091667628.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<lN6dnZpvi_ErB4zcRVn-rg@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <d11dcfba.0408050853.6e0acfa2@posting.google.com>

Istvan Albert <ialbert at mailblocks.com> wrote in message news:<lN6dnZpvi_ErB4zcRVn-rg at giganews.com>...
> I always felt that Java was too rigid and that any kind
> of loosening feels like a breath of fresh air.

Yeah, I felt the same way.  I really like that Python hasn't been
deathly afraid of backwards incompatibility, at least when it was
minor and introducing the backwards incompatibility made the language
cleaner and more powerful.

The whole @ syntax reminds me of Java's : syntax for their enhanced
for-loop. From http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/releases/j2se15langfeat:
"Many developers are asking why they didn't add the foreach and in so
that we can write:
    foreach (element in collection)  
The fact of the matter is that adding new keywords to a language such
as Java is quite costly. In addition, it wouldn't be compatible with
existing source code that uses the in keyword, for example, as in
System.in. So the whole idea is just to keep things
upwardly-compatible."

These are, of course, the standard reasons against introducing new
keywords, and the same reasons that Python tries not to introduce them
unnecessarily. Still, I think, for example, the 'yield' generator
syntax (which was introduced relatively recently) is much clearer than
doing something strange with punctuation would have been.  I guess I
just don't see why decorators merit strange punctuation when
generators didn't...

(Notice that if Java's 'foreach' discussion came up in Python --
assuming Python didn't already have the 'for' construction -- the
'foreach' keyword would probably have been added without hesitation
because it would be quickly deemed a very minor backwards
incompatibility.)

Steve


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Thu Aug 12 11:48:02 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:48:02 -0400
Subject: Verbosity Check Style
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1563.1092324234.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1563.1092324234.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121137550.5408-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 brianc at temple.edu wrote:

> I would like to get people's views on the best way to
> implement verbosity (or any command-line option) into python
> scripts. 

I'd suggest one of the following:

1) Use a dedicated verbose() function.  This will likely be the fastest 
and cleanest method:

 if VERBOSE:
     def verbose(t):
         print t
 else:
     def verbose(t):
         pass

 <some code>
 verbose("I'm doing something here")
 <more code>

2) Use a dedicated verbose file handle.  This is as fast as and possibly
(depending on your taste) cleaner than the above method:

 import sys
 # Pythonic version of /dev/null
 class devnull(object):
     def write(self,d): pass

 if VERBOSE:
     verbose = sys.stdout
 else:
     verbose = devnull()

 <some code>
 print >>verbose, "I'm doing something here"
 <more code>

Hope this helps.



From tim.leslie at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 12:27:00 2004
From: tim.leslie at gmail.com (Tim Leslie)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 02:27:00 +1000
Subject: Fun transformation problem
In-Reply-To: <2p69vfFh7vf6U1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <pan.2004.08.26.13.24.26.521173@riverhall_nospam_.co.uk>
	<2p69vfFh7vf6U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <d32b453504082609273b523334@mail.gmail.com>

This is what I came up with. It's recursive, so it could get you into
trouble with longer lists, but hey, it's late at night and it'll do
for now :-)

def g(d, lst):
    head = lst[0]
    tail = lst[1:]
    if not tail:
        return head
    else:        
        d[head] = g(d.get(head, {}), tail)
    return d

def f(lst):
    d = {}
    for xs in lst:
        d = g(d, xs)
    return d

Cheers,

Tim

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 18:20:23 +0400, anton muhin <antonmuhin at rambler.ru> wrote:
> 
> 
> Dale Strickland-Clark wrote:
> > A guy in the office has come up with this interesting transformation
> > problem. We have a solution but I'm sure there's a neater, more 'pythonic'
> > approach.
> >
> > I thought this might appeal to some here:
> >
> > I want a function to convert a list of tuples into a hierarchy of
> > dictionaries.  Let me first demonstrate with an example:
> >
> >
> >>>>lstA = [(1, 2, 3), (1, 3, 4), (2, 5, 6)]
> >>>>dctA = fncA(lstA)
> >>>>print dctA
> >
> > {1: {2: 3, 3: 4}, 2: {5: 6}}
> >
> >
> > I essentially want the definition to fncA.  Here is another example:
> >
> >
> >>>>lstA = [(1, 2, 3, 4) ,(3, 4, 5, 6), (3, 4, 6, 7), (3, 4, 6, 8), (3, 4,
> >
> > 5, 1), (3, 4, 7, 9)]
> >
> >>>>dctA = fncA(lstA)
> >>>>print dctA
> >
> > {1: {2: {3: 4}}, 3: {4: {5: 1, 6: 8, 7: 9}}}
> >
> >
> > Each tuple in the original list must be unique after the last value is
> > excluded (since these values are used to form the "hierarchical key".
> >
> > I have written a function, which seems to work but looks very cumbersome.
> > Could anyone point me to a simpler solution?
> >
> >
> >
> > Dale Strickland-Clark
> > Riverhall Systems
> 
> The following:
> 
> def transform(l):
>    d = {}
> 
>    for t in l:
>      c = d
>      for e in t[:-2]:
>        c = c.setdefault(e, {})
>      c[t[-2]] = t[-1]
> 
>    return d
> 
> seems clear enough for me.
> 
> with the best regards,
> anton.
> 
> 
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom  Fri Aug  6 13:13:56 2004
From: unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom (Michel Claveau - abstraction méta-galactique non triviale en fuite perpétuelle.)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 19:13:56 +0200
Subject: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was Decorator syntax)
References: <6LWdnZCpvI7Ico_cRVn-hw@giganews.com>
	<cevg5s$i91$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408060938130.30087-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <cf0e9d$lgs$1@news-reader3.wanadoo.fr>

;o)






From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Fri Aug 27 16:19:23 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:19:23 -0700
Subject: tarfile's tar.extractfile() file-like object incompatible with
	pickle.load()?
References: <3e6d6c21.0408261043.264c3a2d@posting.google.com>
	<1093572564.733113@news.commspeed.net>
	<3e6d6c21.0408271000.6007a361@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1093638479.693481@news.commspeed.net>


"Matt Doucleff" <mattduke at ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message
news:3e6d6c21.0408271000.6007a361 at posting.google.com...
> "Tom B." <sbabbitt at commspeed.net> wrote in message
news:<1093572564.733113 at news.commspeed.net>...
> > "Matt Doucleff" <mattduke at ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message
> > news:3e6d6c21.0408261043.264c3a2d at posting.google.com...
> > > Hi everyone!  I must be doing something wrong here :)  I have a
> > > tarball that contains a single file whose contents are a pickled
> > > object.  I would like to unpickle the object directly from the tarball
> > > using the file-like object provided by extractfile().  Attempts to do
> > > this result in EOFError.  However if I first extract to a temporary
> > > file, then unpickle from there, it works.  The below code reproduces
> > > the problem (on my machine at least).  I'm running Python 2.3.4,
> > > manually installed on Debian Woody (original python removed).  Thanks!
> > >
> > > This sample code creates (and then removes) files in the tmp directory
> > > and in the current working directory.
> > >
> > > # demonstrates extractfile/unpickle failure (bug?)
> > >
> > > # pickle a dict to a temp file
> > > # create tar file, add temp file to it, close tar file
> > > # open tar file for reading
> > > # obtain file-like object for pickled file using extractfile()
> > > # attempt to unpickle dict from file-like object
> > > # fails with EOFError exception
> > >
> > > import tarfile
> > > import pickle
> > > import tempfile
> > > import os
> > >
> > > if __name__ == '__main__':
> > >     try:
> > >         hashtopickle = { 'a' : 1, 'b' : 2 }
> > >
> > >         # pickle to temp file
> > >         (fd, tmpfilename) = tempfile.mkstemp()
> > >         tmpfile = os.fdopen(fd, 'w')
> > >         pickle.dump(hashtopickle, tmpfile)
> > >         tmpfile.close()
> > >
> > >         # create tar; add temp file
> > >         tar = tarfile.open('tarpickle.tar', 'w')
> > >         tar.add(tmpfilename, 'pickledhash')
> > >         tar.close()
> > >
> > >         # remove temp file
> > >         os.remove(tmpfilename)
> > >
> > >         # open tarfile for reading, get filelike
> > >         tar = tarfile.open('tarpickle.tar', 'r')
>
> > >         filelike = tar.extractfile('pickledhash')
> > >
> > >         # fails
> > >         hashcopy = pickle.load(filelike)
> > >
> > >     finally:
> > >         # cleanup
> > >         os.remove('tarpickle.tar')
> >
> > It occurs to me that you need to do,
> >
> >  hashcopy = pickle.loads(filelike)
> >
> > if filelike is a string.
> >
> > Tom
> > P.S. have a look at pickle.dumps()
>
> The tarfile.extractfile() method does not read the contents
> of the encapsulated file into a string, but constructs a new
> object that implements file operations (it is like a file)
> and is intended to be used as if you had simply opened the
> tar-encapsulated file directly.
>
>     Matt

How about,

filelike = tar.extractfile('pickledhash')
filetext = filelike.read()
hashcopy = pickle.load(StringIO.StringIO(filetext ))

Tom




From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 11 15:34:44 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:34:44 -0400
Subject: Rather than decorators, how about sections?
In-Reply-To: <411a6b9d$0$13688$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
References: <cfdegs$5oo$1@sea.gmane.org>	<1C74C038-EBB6-11D8-8889-000A95857E5C@eischet.com>	<mailman.1516.1092244260.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<411a6b9d$0$13688$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <cfdsci$rtc$1@sea.gmane.org>

Christophe Cavalaria wrote:

> Paul Morrow wrote:
> 
> 
>>>class Foo(object):
>>>    def spam(Foo):
>>>        print "Class Method"
> 
> 
> What is that ? It's ugly, it's a name alias and it'll be incredibly
> confusing when classmethods are inherited, which is exactly the most common
> use case for classmethods.
> 

Fine, instead of Foo (the name of the class), use the word klass.  It's 
a popular name for the first parameter of a class method.

> 
>>I like it!  It's simple, clear, ... Why isn't this the hands-down best
>>solution? Why do we want to be more verbose than necessary?
> 
> 
> It isn't a solution. It only "resolves" the problem for staticmethod and
> classmethod which are only a very small part of what we do/want to do with
> decorators.
> 

What we want to do with decorators, it appears, is to clutter up our 
code with declarations, some of which are just pragmas.  I thought we 
liked dynamic declarations (where it's obvious what's going on, as it 
would be here).

> 
> Well, it might seem strange but :
> - It will break a lot of code which use a name different than self for the
> first argument
> - It'll break all existing classmethods
> - It'll break code that binds arbitrary functions as a member function. You
> can't do things like that anymore :
> 
> 
>>>>def f(s):
>>>>    print "Hi, I'm function f"
>>>>class Klass:
>>>>    doIt = f
>>>>Klass().doIt()
> 
> 

Breaking existing code is not necessarily a bad thing.  If you worry too 
much about it, you end up with a real mess of a language.  One that's 
hard to read/write/understand.

To a junior pythonista, in your example, the way you chose 's' as the 
argument name, f looks like it might be a static method.  It would have 
been more clear to use 'self' instead.

So I think that dropping the decoration syntax for class and static 
methods, and instead requiring that we use a particular naming 
convention for their 1st arguments, we not only improve the readibility 
of our code (less arcane syntax), but the correctness of our reader's 
expectations as well.




From ben at benlast.com  Sat Aug 28 16:03:01 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 21:03:01 +0100
Subject: Dynamic languages
In-Reply-To: <1093718996.482485@news.commspeed.net>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPEEPFCFAA.ben@benlast.com>

> From Tom B.
>     I figured that I wouldn't be able to find any truly dead computer
> language. I met a technician at U of Minnesota Physics department who
> collected PDP11's and programmed only in fourth. When I asked him why he
> replied, 'If I don't do it who will'.

When a language is new, there's no money in programming it; nobody uses it.
When a language is on the up, there's money, but everybody's learning it.
When a language is the current Big Idea, there's no money in it; everyone
uses it.
When a language is dying, there's no money in it, everyone's getting out.

When a language is all but dead, and a company has large amounts of software
written in it, and you're one of the very few who can still programme in
it... there's BIG money.

Such is the justification of the few COBOL programmers I know of.

b



From iketo2 at netscape.net  Sat Aug 28 09:45:04 2004
From: iketo2 at netscape.net (Isaac To)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 21:45:04 +0800
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87hdqok9i6.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1rfz68ely9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<876574k7du.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1r3c28ejis.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<5MWXc.228027$ht5.11749427@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<1rhdqnd3rm.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<fm%Xc.228352$qk5.11718706@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<1r8ybzcs7v.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <873c27tlzz.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>

>>>>> "Kjetil" == Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no> writes:

    Kjetil> I think it's harder to spot the bug here than in my Python
    Kjetil> example.  this doesn't mean Python can't be improved
    Kjetil> further :-) -- Kjetil T.

I don't think your proposal to throw { and } into the code will solve
the problem and make it easier, though.

Regards,
Isaac.


From mksql at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 10 11:11:15 2004
From: mksql at yahoo.com (Max)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 08:11:15 -0700
Subject: Secure storage for passwords for admin scripts?
Message-ID: <c90c3203.0408100711.3f7b056d@posting.google.com>

I have a collection of system admin scripts (on Win 2k) that I would
like to automate the execution of. However, some of them require the
use of logins with admin rights, and would therefore prefer not to
store the IDs in the clear text of the source. If memory serves
correctly, the "compiled" .pyc files do not provide much security in
this area.

Are there are recommended methods for supplying scripts with login
information in a secure fashion?


From kowald at molgen.mpg.de  Mon Aug 16 11:59:56 2004
From: kowald at molgen.mpg.de (Axel Kowald)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 08:59:56 -0700
Subject: Tkinter buttons with image ?
References: <mailman.1678.1092562235.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cfnc4h$vhe$05$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <9b5e8d9.0408160759.2be1be76@posting.google.com>

> Using the image in Tkinter will not keep it from being garbage-collected.
> You need to keep a reference to the image, either in a global variable or
> like so:
> 
> buttonStart = Button(frameWb, image=tmp, command=root.quit)
> buttonStart.image = tmp

Ah, that's the trick.

Many thanks,

              Axel


From nelson at monkey.org  Wed Aug  4 19:50:54 2004
From: nelson at monkey.org (Nelson Minar)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 23:50:54 GMT
Subject: Modern dead-tree Python resources
References: <mailman.1101.1091568194.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cpavffya2bg.fsf@cabernet.nelson.monkey.org>

Like others, I like Python in a Nutshell.

Dive into Python is a new book out by an excellent author
  http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/07/18/dive-into-python

You can read it online too:
  http://diveintopython.org/


From richie at entrian.com  Fri Aug 20 10:39:04 2004
From: richie at entrian.com (Richie Hindle)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:39:04 +0100
Subject: Newbie to XML in Python
In-Reply-To: <cg50qi$52p$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
References: <cg50qi$52p$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
Message-ID: <oq2ci0h58oo82usm0rmsevo67blqr61bfe@4ax.com>


[Jens]
> XML in Python doesn't seem easy or intuitive. All I need to do, is to 
> interpret a small piece of XML in which I store data for the contents of 
> an autorun menu. What is the quickest/most effective way to do this?

You're probably looking for an "XML data binding" rather than a SAX or DOM
implementation.  I've had good results with XML_Objectify - see
http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/07/02/py-xml.html

Another option, which I've never used, is Anobind -
http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/4Suite/anobind/

If your XML might not be well formed, Beautiful Soup is a good choice -
http://www.crummy.com/software/BeautifulSoup/

-- 
Richie Hindle
richie at entrian.com



From http  Wed Aug 25 03:59:04 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 00:59:04 -0700
Subject: with as J2 keyword (WAS: Re: J2 0-2-6 is available)
References: <mailman.2323.1093399282.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<vNSdnQtkP7x9arbcRVn-vQ@comcast.com>
	<mailman.2335.1093408605.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7xr7pvsp3i.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<mailman.2338.1093416706.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <7xeklvvebb.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Steven Bethard <steven.bethard at gmail.com> writes:
> >     ::classmethod
> >     ::funcattrs(author="Fran????ois Pinard")
> >     def foo(cls):
> >         pass
> 
> 
> Well, a double colon isn't valid decorator syntax, so it wouldn't be
> good for me to present examples of decorator usage in that form...
> Maybe I misunderstand you?  Or maybe you're using a quote from me
> out of context?  I'm confused...

I just mean ::pie might be a decent alternative to @pie.


From dhansteen at hotmail.com  Mon Aug  9 13:42:46 2004
From: dhansteen at hotmail.com (Dag Hansteen)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 19:42:46 +0200
Subject: Question
Message-ID: <BAY17-DAV13sZOf1iIz0001b30f@hotmail.com>

>>> s = "2+2"
>>> answer = int(str(s))
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<pyshell#64>", line 1, in ?
    answer = int(str(s))
ValueError: invalid literal for int(): 2+2

How do I this ? I have a string with a such expression and I want to return the answer in a variable.

Regards Dag Hansteen

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From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  6 20:26:38 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 20:26:38 -0400
Subject: PEP-0318
In-Reply-To: <roy-70A225.19463206082004@reader1.panix.com>
References: <41122FC2.1080608@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1251.1091764482.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4114152f@nntp.zianet.com>
	<roy-70A225.19463206082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <411421bf@nntp.zianet.com>

Roy Smith wrote:
> Mark Bottjer <mark_bottjer at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>     * 0 Perhaps decorators should be allowed before or after the
>>         docstring. If you have to choose, I'd choose making it before
>>         the docstring.
> 
> It's a pretty arbitrary decision (i.e. I can't see any strong arguments 
> one way or the other) which means it's the kind of thing which is likely 
> to not be remembered.  I think I'm with you, decorators come first, then 
> the docstring.  But pick one and stick with it, so everybody does it the 
> same way.

I agree that it is arbitrary. I horked the text from one of the other 
sections, as I thought that it applied here as well.

>>     * - Lots of decorators will make it harder to find the start of the
>>         function implementation. Then again, so will a large docstring.
 >
> Do people anticipate having lots of decorators for a given function?

The way they've been talking, it would appear so. I'm routinely hearing 
a bunch of different things people want to use this syntax for: 
staticmethod/classmethod, argument type assertion, DBC, synchronization, 
metadata such as author, and framework callback registration, just to 
name a few.

   -- Mark


From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug  5 14:30:31 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 14:30:31 -0400
Subject: Confused about pep 318
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1214.1091727520.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>	<mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org>	<d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>	<mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051249050.10473-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>	<mailman.1210.1091725930.5135.python-list@python.org>	<e86dnZBJM6_n84_cRVn-jA@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1214.1091727520.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <HrmdnaZrl6la4Y_cRVn-ig@powergate.ca>

Anthony Baxter wrote:

> On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 13:29:29 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> 
>>I'll make another donation to PSF if the final decorator syntax
>>does not Perlishly use arbitrary punctuation as the @ syntax does.
> 
> FFS. What exactly is "Perlish" about @? It's an unused symbol. That's all.

"For Fucks Sake", presumably?  Sorry you're feeling pressured by this...

Anyway, that is exactly what is Perlish about it.  Perl takes pretty
much every unused symbol and finds some completely arbitrary way
to use them, just because they are there.  So far, Guido has
avoided that (almost?) entirely in Python, using symbols that
have very well-established meanings in other computer languages and
even outside of the computer realm itself (e.g. the use of colon).

It surprises me that he didn't discard this choice out of hand.

I'm also surprised that the choice which had the greatest public
support during the straw poll at PyCon isn't still under discussion,
but I readily admit I'm neither following nor participating in
the pydev discussions where it was presumably dropped for some valid
reason...

-Peter


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Mon Aug 30 16:31:59 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 22:31:59 +0200
Subject: "Content-Length" header
In-Reply-To: <ch02m2$31u@odbk17.prod.google.com>
References: <ch02m2$31u@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408302231110.1162-100000@kleigh.nl>

Justin schreef:


> (THIS DOESN't)
> for y in linklisttype:
> x = y
> temp = urlopen(x)
> print temp
> temp2 = temp.info()
> print temp2
> temp3 = temp2.getheader("Content-Length")
> print temp3

You need to indent the lines following the 'for' statement.


-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From fumanchu at amor.org  Mon Aug 23 13:34:41 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:34:41 -0700
Subject: Standard graph API?
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E44@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

> Is there any interest in a (hypothetical) standard graph API (with
> 'graph' meaning a network, consisting of nodes and edges)?

1) Yes!
2) Only if it's in C. I don't mind (re)writing pure Python graph
containers, it's the speed of a pure Python graph that's the bigger
issue to me (mostly object inspection and/or
decorate-insert-retrieve-undecorate cycles). If it started in a
pure-Python package, then went into the stdlib, and then got a C
implementation (like sets.py did), that would be fine.
3) It would have to accept arbitrary objects. No "make your class a
subclass of GraphNode" garbage. If someone wanted to make a subclass of
Graph called StringGraph, which was optimized for strings, or IntGraph
optimized for ints, that would be fine. But the base class (I assume a
class implementation?) should handle instances of Object.

I'm sure there are many more details, but those are the big ones IMO.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From dropthis_fanmail at micah-wedemeyer.net  Wed Aug 25 14:30:52 2004
From: dropthis_fanmail at micah-wedemeyer.net (Micah)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:30:52 -0400
Subject: using windows defaults for executing/examining files
References: <cgijsq$38a$1@news-int2.gatech.edu>
	<cgikd2$bnb$02$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <cgilt0$4b7$1@news-int2.gatech.edu>

Using wxPython, is there any way to get the icon associated with a file?  I
want to be able to display the icon, then when it's double clicked, it
executes the file (using os.startfile )

Micah
"Diez B. Roggisch" <deetsNOSPAM at web.de> wrote in message
news:cgikd2$bnb$02$1 at news.t-online.com...
> Micah wrote:
>
> > Is there an os module call to request that Windows handle a specific
file
> > using the default handler?  For example, if I pass it a .txt file it
opens
> > notepad but if I pass a .wav file it opens Windows Media Player.
>
> os.startfile()
>
> -- 
> Regards,
>
> Diez B. Roggisch




From tdelaney at avaya.com  Sun Aug 29 20:50:40 2004
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy))
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:50:40 +1000
Subject: allowing braces around suites
Message-ID: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01DCFF0B@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote:

> when I provide four lines of code and tell you there's a bug, of
> course you can spot it immediately.  when it's part of a large system,
> it's a bit harder.  also consider that the db.commit() originally was
> correctly placed by the programmer, and the wrong indentation was
> introduced later by an editing glitch.

This is why you need a comprehensive unit test suite. Such a suite would
reveal that non-students were not getting committed.

Tim Delaney


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Mon Aug 30 15:27:35 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 21:27:35 +0200
Subject: Size of a remote URL
In-Reply-To: <cgvun2$q15@odbk17.prod.google.com>
References: <cgvun2$q15@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408302126220.1162-100000@kleigh.nl>

Justin schreef:

> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&output=search&num=5&q=temp+filetype%3Adoc
>
> Go to that URL.  The first two search results do not return a
> Content-Length Header.  Yet IE still knows how big they are somehow,
> whereas my code doesn't.

Look again:

~ lwp-request -m HEAD 'http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~harnad/Temp/Ariadne-RAE.doc'
200 OK
Connection: close
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 19:26:01 GMT
Accept-Ranges: bytes
ETag: "f10f630-9a800-3ea2ba8e"
Server: Apache/1.3.27 (Unix)  (Red-Hat/Linux) mod_ssl/2.8.12
OpenSSL/0.9.6b DAV/1.0.3 PHP/4.3.2 mod_perl/1.26
Content-Length: 632832
Content-Type: application/msword
Last-Modified: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 15:19:42 GMT


-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From me at privacy.net  Thu Aug 19 11:11:42 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Richard Hanson)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:11:42 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<mailman.1866.1092838539.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <7re9i095r921mmgemacgn24rp0h7ijdun4@4ax.com>

Mike C. Fletcher wrote:

>It's so much more efficient to just make up the statistics.

Not *that's* a quote!

 :-)

thread-enjoyingly y'rs,
Richard

-- 
R Hanson [The mangled email addie below works.]
sick<P0INT>ole<PERI0D>fart<PIE_DEC0_SYNTAX>newsguy<MARK>com


From ivoras at __-geri.cc.fer.hr  Mon Aug 16 18:18:52 2004
From: ivoras at __-geri.cc.fer.hr (Ivan Voras)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 00:18:52 +0200
Subject: Editors again
Message-ID: <cfrbse$j8n$1@bagan.srce.hr>

Are there any editors besides IDLE that can display doc-strings[*] in 
popups? I tried SPE and DrPython, and while they are ok (better said 
'not horribly bad'), they don't seem to have that option.

I'd like to see in an editor:
  - code-completion in case of functions, member variables etc. 
("intelli-sense"? :) )
  - useful usage of doc-strings, maybe integrated python Help/Manual support
  - MDI or similar style, with good navigation (this is why I don't like 
IDLE)

Actually, SPE is pretty close, but auto-completion seems to behave 
'funny' sometimes, and no doc-string support I can see...



[*] Maybe I misnamed them. I was thinking of:
def f():
     """This is a doc-string"""
     pass


From jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu  Fri Aug  6 16:08:19 2004
From: jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu (John Hunter)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 15:08:19 -0500
Subject: Plotting histograms, scatter plots in Python
In-Reply-To: <d1f3d1d3.0408061018.137b600f@posting.google.com>
	(DrColombes@yahoo.com's message of "6 Aug 2004 11:18:40 -0700")
References: <d1f3d1d3.0408061018.137b600f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <m24qnguj0s.fsf@mother.paradise.lost>

>>>>> "Colombes" == Colombes  <DrColombes at yahoo.com> writes:

    Colombes> What is the easiest way to generate some plots and
    Colombes> graphs in Python ?  Specifically interested in simple
    Colombes> histograms and scatter plots with circles and regression
    Colombes> lines.

Here's a little example of a histogram and regression plot using
matplotlib - looks easy enough to me!  Output image at
http://nitace.bsd.uchicago.edu:8080/files/share/demo.png

    from matplotlib.matlab import *

    x = randn(10000)  # some gaussian noise

    subplot(211)      # a subplot
    hist(x, 100)      # make a histogram
    grid(True)        # make an axes grid
    ylabel('histogram')

    # now do the regression...
    x = arange(0.0, 2.0, 0.05)
    y = 2+ 3*x + 0.2*randn(len(x))  # y is a linear function of x + nse

    # the bestfit line from polyfit
    m,b = polyfit(x,y,1)  # a line is 1st order polynomial...

    # plot the data with blue circles and the best fit with a thick
    # solid black line
    subplot(212)
    plot(x, y, 'bo', x, m*x+b, '-k', linewidth=2)
    ylabel('regression')
    grid(True)       

    # save the image to hardcopy
    savefig('demo')
    show()



From tim.hochberg at ieee.org  Mon Aug 16 20:14:57 2004
From: tim.hochberg at ieee.org (Tim Hochberg)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:14:57 -0700
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
In-Reply-To: <41214271_1@127.0.0.1>
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>	<RGwTc.37687$js3.13758840@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>	<m34qn2n2du.fsf@g2ctech.com>
	<41214271_1@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <cfrim4$us6$1@sea.gmane.org>

beliavsky at aol.com wrote:
> Jorge Godoy <godoy at ieee.org> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Just an attempt and trying to keep it like your code. 
> 
> 
> Thanks. My code did not correctly illustrate breaking out of more than one
> level of loop. How would the following code be translated to Python?
> It is silly of course, but real-world situations where you want to exit a
> nested loop are not that rare.
> 
> program xnest_loop
> ! illustrate breaking a nested loop
> integer :: i,j,k,n
> n = 4
> ido: do i=1,n
>    jdo: do j=1,n
>       if (i+j > n) exit ido
>       do k=1,n
>          if (i+j-k < 0) exit jdo
>          print*,i,j,k
>       end do
>    end do jdo
> end do ido
> end program xnest_loop

Hmmm. I've never run into a case where the loop logic is that nasty. 
And,  as it turns out, even the above isn't that nasty if you stare at 
it a minute, it can be coded without break/exit at all. So this is how 
I'd code it <0.5 wink>:

n=4
for i in range(1,n):
     for k in range(1,i+2):
         print i, 1, k

Of course this just dodges your point, but I can't be made to care 
unless you convince me that I'm likely to run into something like this 
in practice.

-tim


> 
> output:
>  1 1 1
>  1 1 2
>  2 1 1
>  2 1 2
>  2 1 3
>  3 1 1
>  3 1 2
>  3 1 3
>  3 1 4
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
> http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
> ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---



From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 18 18:50:59 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:50:59 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
In-Reply-To: <Michael.J.Fromberger-FF646E.17492318082004@localhost>
References: <mailman.1829.1092785390.5135.python-list@python.org>	<65adnQrUKILiC7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>	<mailman.1834.1092791633.5135.python-list@python.org>	<m2vffgd6pu.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>	<mailman.1858.1092832530.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Michael.J.Fromberger-6AF702.10114718082004@localhost>	<mailman.1891.1092854353.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-FF646E.17492318082004@localhost>
Message-ID: <cg0mgh$k09$1@sea.gmane.org>

Michael J. Fromberger wrote:

> In article <mailman.1891.1092854353.5135.python-list at python.org>,
>  Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Michael J. Fromberger wrote:
>>
> 
>>And if you ask experienced Python developers who understand the 
>>difference between class, static, and instance methods, to guess what 
>>kind of method this is...
>>
>>     def foo(cls, a, b): pass
>>
>>...I bet the majority would correctly guess "class".
> 
> 
> Well, given just that definition, the guess would be incorrect.  The 
> current release of Python would also require:
> 
>    def foo(cls, a, b): pass  # As defined above
>    foo = classmethod(foo)
> 
> Otherwise, it would be an instance method, not a class method.  I hope 
> this illustrates why visual conventions are not always as obvious as 
> they seem, and should not be cast into the concrete of implementation.
> 

Actually, it illustrates the importance of proof-reading a post before 
posting it, which I didn't (sorry).  I should've also stated that the 
Python developers would be told that this is a special version of Python 
that automatically determines the type (static|class|instance) of a 
method.  In that light, do you see how effective the visual convention 
can be?

> 
>>Declarations aren't needed when an obvious interpretation of the code 
>>conveys the desired meaning.
> 
> 
> What about when the obvious interpretation of the code does NOT convey 
> the desired meaning?
> 

Then we have a bad convention.  One that I would absolutely agree should 
not be enforced by the system.  But that's not the case here.  I believe 
that the obvious interpretation of code written with this convention 
would consistently and reliably convey the authors intent:

   * If method's first param is 'self', it's an instance method.
   * If method's first param is 'cls' or 'klass', it's a class method.
   * All other methods are static methods.





From http  Sat Aug 28 16:28:53 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 13:28:53 -0700
Subject: Generator expressions v/s list comprehensions
References: <mahesh-525B07.12195528082004@individual.net>
	<1gj8y77.6qshr41q531veN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<mahesh-7E265C.14093428082004@individual.net>
Message-ID: <7xbrgvuhve.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Mahesh Padmanabhan <mahesh at privacy.net> writes:
> I am still not clear of the advantages of using generator expressions 
> (other than less memory consumption) 

Why do you think using bounded rather than unbounded amounts of memory
is an insignificant advantage?


From elainejackson7355 at home.com  Mon Aug 16 19:54:10 2004
From: elainejackson7355 at home.com (Elaine Jackson)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 23:54:10 GMT
Subject: music resources
Message-ID: <CObUc.124363$J06.99175@pd7tw2no>

Is there such a thing as an executable language for music? If not, why not? And
if yes, where can I find it? Naturally the ideal thing would be if such a
language were implemented within python, but I would be willing to learn a
lesser programming language if I had a reasonable assurance that it had what I'm
looking for. I have, of course, googled for a solution, and I may have even
found it, but if so I didn't recognize it as such. Any pointers will be mucho
appreciado.

Peace




From sandysj at juno.com  Fri Aug 20 16:26:15 2004
From: sandysj at juno.com (Jeff Sandys)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:26:15 GMT
Subject: Fate of lambda, Functional Programming in Python...
References: <412636D1.6070808@noaa.gov>
	<mailman.2073.1093028474.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <41265E67.A08409A6@juno.com>



"Christopher A. Craig" wrote:
> 
> "Jared Cohen" <Jared.Cohen at noaa.gov> writes:
> 
> >   Agreed! I'm currently building a GUI in Tkinter, with event 
> >   handlers and callbacks all over the place. The lambda form is an 
> >   absolute MUST for this kind of thing!
> 
> Nobody is talking about removing the ability to pass functions, just
> the actual "lambda" form.
> 
> You can still build a GUI by doing
> 
> def spam(stuff):
>   def eggs(parrot):
>     return 5+parrot
>   return eggs
> 
> You just can't do
> 
> def spam(stuff):
>   return lambda foo: 5+parrot
> 
> I can't think of a situation where you _really_ need the second 
> (and much more limited) form.

How about this use of lambda?
(from another post 'RE: How to sort this kind of list easily?' today)

| > > Hi,all
| > >    I have a list like [(id,string),...],for example:
| > > 
| > >    [(1,'xxxxx'),(7,'ppppp'),(4,'gggggg'),...]
| > > 
| > >    I want to sort this list according to the id of each element. 
| > >    After sorting,the list will become:
| > > 
| > >    [(1,'xxxxx'),(4,'gggggg'),(7,'ppppp')...]
| >
| > list.sort sorts tuples by first argument, then second &c. If you
want
| > a custom sort order, look at the decorate-sort-undecorate pattern.
| 
|  Or if you want to sort only on your Id, use a lambda:
|  l.sort(lambda x,y: cmp(x[0],y[0]))
| 
|  To force sorting on just the nth element of the tuples, replace 0
with 
|  n in the above.
|

I think that lambda should be unlimited and expanded.  It already has
the 
colon, block delimiter, so allow lambda to be a multistatement and
multiline
indented block!

Thanks,
Jeff Sandys


From michele.simionato at gmail.com  Sat Aug  7 10:25:30 2004
From: michele.simionato at gmail.com (Michele Simionato)
Date: 7 Aug 2004 07:25:30 -0700
Subject: dispatch tables in Python 2.4
Message-ID: <4edc17eb.0408070625.61a0624d@posting.google.com>

<Still experimenting with the new features of Python 2.4 ...>

A thing I always had in my wishlist was the ability to define dispatch
tables in an elegant way. Currently, Python is butt ugly:

def function_with_a_long_name_1():
    "do this"
    
def function_with_a_long_name_2():
    "do that"
 
dispatch_table = dict(
 function_with_a_long_name_1 = function_with_a_long_name_1,
 function_with_a_long_name_2 = function_with_a_long_name_2,
)

Really horrible and error prone (especially for a poor typist like
myself). With decorators I can do

def add_to(lst):
    def closure(func):
       lst.append(func)
       return func
    return closure

lst = []

@add_to(lst)
def function_with_a_long_name_1():
    "do this"

@add_to(lst)
def function_with_a_long_name_2():
    "do that"

dispatch_table = dict((f.func_name,f) for f in lst)
#!generator-comprehension!

With the advent of decorators I see myself using more and more
closures.

BTW, what's the status of the so called "functional" module? I think
there
was a rumor of such a module scheduled for Python 2.4 or 2.5. To play
with
decorators we really need some standard way to compose functions and
to do
partial application of arguments.

Just my 2c,


          Michele Simionato

P.S. decorators make also easy to abuse classes for making dispatch
tables:

class DispatchTable(object):

   @staticmethod
   def function_with_a_long_name_1():
      "do this"

   @staticmethod
   def function_with_a_long_name_2():
      "do that"


But I somewhat prefer dispatch_table[function_name] over
getattr(DispatchTable, function_name).


From joe at schmoe.com  Mon Aug 30 18:12:34 2004
From: joe at schmoe.com (John Doe)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 22:12:34 GMT
Subject: Search for AVI file?
References: <ol17j0pdpiuubu6f9n5vpho4136vimsq6n@4ax.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408302208480.1162-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <9f97j05ddrq66lc8vrd7kb6usepmltptg7@4ax.com>

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 22:12:04 +0200, Peter Kleiweg
<in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid> wrote:

>John Doe schreef:
>
>> I realise that this is not really a python question, but python's the
>> only language I'd be comfortable trying to deal with this.
>>
>> What I need is to search a drive and find all the AVI format files
>> that are NOT listed with the AVI extension.  I'm looking over an old
>> drive of mine from an old computer.  I know the files were renamed
>> with the wrong extension, but I know that they were originally AVI
>> files.  Can python do this for me?  Any hints?  Anybody have a link to
>> something that would already do this?  I appreciate any help.
>
>Use walk() to find all files. Open each file and read in the
>first 12 bytes. The last four of those 12 bytes should be
>'AVI ', if I'm not mistaken.

Ah, os.walk() was exactly what I needed.  By the time I read your
response, I had found the 'AVI' signature, but did not know an easy
way to get to all those files.  

Thank You.


From ville at spammers.com  Fri Aug 20 10:25:29 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 17:25:29 +0300
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision !! IMPORTANT THREAD !!
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<du7hdqyxezw.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>
	<LtnVc.4602$Jn5.465@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <du7vffdj38m.fsf_-_@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Paul" == Paul McGuire <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> writes:

    Paul> I'm afraid I have to agree, the subject is a poor one.  I
    Paul> noticed that yesterday as the responses were slow to come
    Paul> in.  Something more on the order of "READ THIS - IT'S
    Paul> FREAKIN' IMPORTANT!"  is surely warranted.

Yup - for those just joining in, post somewhere in this thread, it
involves voting that all pythonistas know & love (along with the
associated grain of salt that goes with it here in
pythonland). Instructions in the root message.

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From me at privacy.net  Mon Aug  9 22:49:26 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Dan Sommers)
Date: 09 Aug 2004 22:49:26 -0400
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar, but for what exactly?
References: <Xns953F91E18B19Fduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
	<m2isbtlitv.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
	<10hg6rf5ck639cd@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <m2llgnemh5.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 17:49:13 -0700,
Jeff Shannon <jeff at ccvcorp.com> wrote:

> Dan Sommers wrote:

>> When I see f( x ), I think that f is a function bound by def (or an
>> extremely close relative, such as class or staticmethod), and that I can
>> grep for it somewhere, either in the source code or the library
>> reference.  I also think, rightly or wrongly, that f *was* bound,
>> *before* I needed it, and *does not change over time*.
>> 
>> When I see apply( f, x ), I think that f varies over time, and is some
>> sort of a callback or plugin or whatever, and is *not* the name of an
>> actual function bound by def.  

> Um, I think you're missing the point, here.  The apply() has nothing to
> do with whether func() is bound by def or by assignment -- both cases
> given here are intended to allow the easy passing of variable argument
> lists to functions.

I think you're right:  I have at least two issues all wound up together
here.  My background is such that if you need different argument lists,
then you need different functions.  It's amazing how flexible something
as outwardly simple as apply can be.

I will reduce my original notion to f( x ) screams "this is pretty much
the same all the time," but apply indicates something more interesting.

Thanks for being so patient with this old timer.  :-)

Dan

-- 
Dan Sommers
<http://www.tombstonezero.net/dan/>
Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.


From miki.tebeka at zoran.com  Sun Aug 15 08:31:06 2004
From: miki.tebeka at zoran.com (Miki Tebeka)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 14:31:06 +0200
Subject: drop into the interpreter
In-Reply-To: <MoPSc.848$PG2.811334@twister.tampabay.rr.com>
References: <MoPSc.848$PG2.811334@twister.tampabay.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20040815123106.GB2856@zoran.com>

Hello Hoang,

> is there a facility to inspect the run-time of a python script?
> Essentially, it would execute a script to a set specific point and then drop
> into the interpreter.  Something like a "Stop" or "Break"?
"pdb" module set_trace does what you want (and you're in the deubgger
environment...)
---
import pdb

print 1
pdb.set_trace()
print 2
---

HTH.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Miki Tebeka <miki.tebeka at zoran.com>
http://tebeka.spymac.net
The only difference between children and adults is the price of the toys


From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 11 22:01:05 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 22:01:05 -0400
Subject: Rather than decorators, how about sections?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1530.1092256253.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <cfdegs$5oo$1@sea.gmane.org>	<1C74C038-EBB6-11D8-8889-000A95857E5C@eischet.com>	<mailman.1516.1092244260.5135.python-list@python.org>	<411a6b9d$0$13688$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
	<mailman.1530.1092256253.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <411acf61$1@nntp.zianet.com>

Stefan Eischet wrote:
> On 11.08.2004, at 20:55, Christophe Cavalaria wrote:
>> Paul Morrow wrote:
>> - It'll break code that binds arbitrary functions as a member 
>> function. You can't do things like that anymore :
>>
>>>>> def f(s):
>>>>>     print "Hi, I'm function f"
>>>>> class Klass:
>>>>>     doIt = f
>>>>> Klass().doIt()
[snip]
> How would you solve this problem with decorators, btw?
> class Klass:
>     @stuff
>     doIt = f

I would expect it to be more like:

@stuff
def f(s):
   pass
class Klass:
   doIt = f

@stuff modifies f, so it would precede it. The assignment inside Klass 
is just that, a simple assignment; whatever f is, Klass.doIt now refers 
to it was well.

> If there was a rule that assigned functions in the class body (doIt=f) 
> default to normal methods whatever their first arg is called, would that 
> be okay? After all, that is how it works right now.

That's certainly true of def statements inside classes, but doIt is just 
an assignment. If I understand correctly, you're proposing that the 
compiler do something special if a variable at class scope is being 
assigned a known function value. I'm not sure the compiler can know that:

@stuff
def f(s):
   pass
g = f
def id(a):
   return a
class Klass:
   doIt = g
   doItAgain = id(a)

How is the compiler going to sort all this out at compile time?

Also, such implicit typing would prevent one from storing non-methods. 
Raw functions can be useful even inside classes:

class Frob:
   def __init__(self,frob):
     self.__frob = frob
   def __call__(self,buf):
     return self.__frob(buf)
Frob(frob.frobnicate)('This is a test.')
Frob(frob.frobulate)('This is another test.')
Frob(frob.frobnosticate)('The best test of all!')

   -- Mark


From martin at v.loewis.de  Sat Aug  7 09:51:50 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 15:51:50 +0200
Subject: decorators and multimethods
In-Reply-To: <4edc17eb.0408062340.71ab270f@posting.google.com>
References: <4edc17eb.0408062340.71ab270f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <4114DE76.1090301@v.loewis.de>

Michele Simionato wrote:
> def addmethod(*types):
>      """sys._getframe hack; works when the generic function is defined
>      in the globals namespace."""
>      caller_globs = sys._getframe(1).f_globals
>      def function2generic(f):
>           generic = caller_globs[f.func_name]
>           generic[types] = f
>           return generic
>      return function2generic

Couldn't you use f.func_globals to avoid the getframe hack?

Regards,
Martin


From matt.price at utoronto.ca  Mon Aug  9 13:40:00 2004
From: matt.price at utoronto.ca (Matt Price)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 13:40:00 -0400
Subject: unicode and xml/xsl
Message-ID: <20040809174000.GA8525@utoronto.ca>

Hello,

I'm a python (& xml, & unicode!) newbie working on an interface to a
bibliographic reference server (refdb); I'm running into some encoding
problems & am ifnding the plethora of tools a little confusing.  Here
is the basic situation:

I connect to the server and receive an xml document whose content is a
bibliographic dataset.  The document can be encoded in two ways:
ISO-8859-1 or unicode.  My program simply takes the document and
passes it to an xsl stylesleet using libxslt & libxml2.  Here's the
relevant code:  

# this is how I get the results & generate either a string or a
# unicode string
    def getref (self, query = ':ID:>0',  cmd = 'getref ', 
                reftype = default_reftype): 
        cmd += ' ' + query 
        self.send(cmd + self.CS_TERM) 
        results = self.tread() 
        if self.encoding == 'UNICODE': 
            print ' decoding unicode string: ' 
            results = results.decode('utf-8', 'replace') 
        return results 


# this is where I generate the html:
    def risx_to_html (self, risxSet, xsl = xsl_ss,  
                    css=css_url, use_css = 1): 
        styledoc = libxml2.parseFile(xsl) 
        style = libxslt.parseStylesheetDoc(styledoc) 
        doc = libxml2.parseDoc(risxSet) 
        result = style.applyStylesheet(doc, None) 
        # style.saveResultToFilename("results.html", result, 0) 
        htmlString = style.saveResultToString(result) 
        style.freeStylesheet() 
        doc.freeDoc() 
        result.freeDoc() 
        return htmlString 

The server's default encoding is iso-8859-1, and since I mosly use
english-language references, this usually works fine; but occasionally
the server will pass me an entity like '&mu;' (for Greek letter mu).
This generates an error like this:  

Entity: line 57: parser error : Entity 'mu' not defined

This is not so bad, because the parsing continues nonetheless.  With
unicode it's worse.  In this case there are several errors depending
on how I set the system up:  

with iso-8859-1 set as default encoding in sitecustomize.py:

  File "/home/matt/bibpython/refdbclient.py", line 268, in risx_to_html
    doc = libxml2.parseDoc(risxSet)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/libxml2.py", line 1149, in parseDoc
    ret = libxml2mod.xmlParseDoc(cur)
UnicodeEncodeError: 'latin-1' codec can't encode characters in position 0-1: ordinal not in range(256)

with utf-8 set as default encoding: 
  File "/home/matt/bibpython/refdbclient.py", line 268, in risx_to_html
    doc = libxml2.parseDoc(risxSet)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/libxml2.py", line 1149, in parseDoc
    ret = libxml2mod.xmlParseDoc(cur)
TypeError: xmlParseDoc() argument 1 must be string without null bytes or None, not unicode

So I guess I have two questions:

(1) am I using the right python tools for this job?  My excellent
python books unfortunately don't cover either unicode or xml in much
depth, so I'm a little uncertain as te whtehr I'm doing the right
thing.  

(2) Is there a way to make libxml2 parse unicode documents?  Do I need
to pass it more information alerting it that it's getting unicode?  

Anyway, thanks very much for your help.  Much appreciated,  

Matt


-------------------------------------------
Matt Price	    matt.price at utoronto.ca
History Department, University of Toronto
(416) 978-2094
--------------------------------------------


From Jeffrey at Fro.man  Tue Aug 24 21:24:51 2004
From: Jeffrey at Fro.man (Jeffrey Froman)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:24:51 -0700
Subject: Printing date a file
References: <mailman.2296.1093373725.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <UN2dnQd2AJT5d7bcRVn-qw@cablespeedwa.com>

Kory Wheatley wrote:

> In Python how would you print the date in a file...

Here's my favorite way:

>>> import datetime
>>> datetime.date.today().isoformat()
'2004-08-24'

Jeffrey


From m.boeren at guidance.nl  Thu Aug 12 11:35:37 2004
From: m.boeren at guidance.nl (Marc Boeren)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:35:37 +0200
Subject: Verbosity Check Style
Message-ID: <0C77C7530EA52A4EBD1C47C80D1D291E07F9E4@sbs.GuidanceBV.local>



> I would like to get people's views on the best way to
> implement verbosity (or any command-line option) into python
> scripts. 

I'm not sure about the best way, but this hack looks nice:

>>> def print_verbose(txt):
...     print txt
...
>>> def pass_verbose(txt):
...     pass
...
>>> def func():
...   i = 1
...   verbose('message!')
...   i+= 1
...   return i
...
>>> verbose = print_verbose
>>> func()
message!
2
>>> verbose = pass_verbose
>>> func()
2

An extra log_verbose is easily created as well.

Cheerio, Marc.


From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Tue Aug 24 09:59:20 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:59:20 -0400
Subject: python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2274.1093330945.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2274.1093330945.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <z_idnSRcLoYq1LbcRVn-jg@giganews.com>

Brett Cannon wrote:


> Armin Rigo came up with a way to have string concatenation in a loop 
> (think ``for thing in iter_of_strings: concat_str += thing``) not be a 
> quadratic algorithm 

> But Guido didn't like the patch.  

Sometimes I just don't get it.

Here is a patch that removes one of the warts of python, does not introduce
any new behavior, makes python behave as it should have had in the first place,
yet it gets shot down on the grounds that it is 'too much of an improvement'
and that other python implementations might not be able to keep up
with it...

Istvan.




From bac at OCF.Berkeley.EDU  Tue Aug 24 00:50:48 2004
From: bac at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Brett Cannon)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:50:48 -0700
Subject: python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
Message-ID: <412AC928.7000603@ocf.berkeley.edu>

python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This is a summary of traffic on the `python-dev mailing list`_ from 
August 01, 2004 through August 15, 2004.  It is intended to inform the 
wider Python community of on-going developments on the list.  To comment 
on anything mentioned here, just post to `comp.lang.python`_ (or email 
python-list at python.org which is a gateway to the newsgroup) with a 
subject line mentioning what you are discussing. All python-dev members 
are interested in seeing ideas discussed by the community, so don't 
hesitate to take a stance on something.  And if all of this really 
interests you then get involved and join `python-dev`_!

This is the forty-sixth summary written by Brett Cannon (two freakin' years
doing this; I *am* nuts).

To contact me, please send email to brett at python.org ; I do not have 
the time to keep up on comp.lang.python and thus do not always catch 
follow-ups posted there.

All summaries are archived at http://www.python.org/dev/summary/ .

Please note that this summary is written using reStructuredText_ which 
can be found at http://docutils.sf.net/rst.html .  Any unfamiliar 
punctuation is probably markup for reST_ (otherwise it is probably 
regular expression syntax or a typo =); you can safely ignore it, 
although I suggest learning reST; it's simple and is accepted for `PEP 
markup`_ and gives some perks for the HTML output.  Also, because of the 
wonders of programs that like to reformat text, I cannot guarantee you 
will be able to run the text version of this summary through Docutils_ 
as-is unless it is from the `original text file`_.

.. _PEP Markup: http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0012.html

The in-development version of the documentation for Python can be found at
http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/ and should be used when looking up any
documentation on new code; otherwise use the current documentation as 
found at
http://docs.python.org/ .  PEPs (Python Enhancement Proposals) are 
located at http://www.python.org/peps/ .  To view files in the Python 
CVS online, go to http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/python/ 
.  Reported bugs and suggested patches can be found at the SourceForge_ 
project page.

The `Python Software Foundation`_ is the non-profit organization that 
holds the intellectual property for Python.  It also tries to forward 
the development and use of Python.  But the PSF_ cannot do this without 
donations.  You can make a donation at 
http://python.org/psf/donations.html .  Every penny helps so even a 
small donation (you can donate through PayPal or by check) helps.

.. _python-dev: http://www.python.org/dev/
.. _SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=5470
.. _python-dev mailing list: 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
.. _comp.lang.python: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=comp.lang.python
.. _Docutils: http://docutils.sf.net/
.. _reST:
.. _reStructuredText: http://docutils.sf.net/rst.html
.. _PSF:
.. _Python Software Foundation: http://python.org/psf/

.. contents::

.. _last summary: 
http://www.python.org/dev/summary/2004-08-01_2004-08-15.html
.. _original text file: 
http://www.python.org/dev/summary/2004-08-01_2004-08-15.ht



=====================
Summary Announcements
=====================
Well, I have now been doing the summaries for two years.  As has become 
a yearly tradition, I am offering to pass on the writing of the 
summaries to someone else.  My only requirement is you do a comparable 
job.  You do learn *tons* about Python's internals when you have to 
research a topic to be able to summarize it.

With that said, it is also time for stats on the list to scare away 
anyone considering taking over this job  =) .  According to my probably 
buggy script that I wrote last year, I have read 10,190 emails (this 
month has already been the busiest month and it is only half over; could 
set the record for busiest month ever).
The people with over 300 emails posted over the year are:

9. Michael Hudson (303)
8. Martin v. Lowis (307)
7. Barry Warsaw (341)
6. Phillip J. Eby (341) # not a typo; same number as Barry
5. Greg Ewing (354)
4. Raymond Hettinger (372)
3. Skip Montanaro (399)
2. Tim Peters (629)
1. Guido van Rossum (1031)

These 9 people make up over 40% of all the emails from the past year.

Longest threads were:

1. decorate-sort-undecorate (694 emails)
2. Call for defense of @decorators (195 emails)
3. PEP 318: Decorators last before colon (181 emails)
4. redefining is (162 emails)
5. Christmas Wishlist (162 emails)

These stats along with the insane amount of email has showed me 
something; the Summaries have detracted from my participation on 
python-dev this past year.  I have a bigger mouth and more opinions than 
the number of emails I sent to the list show.  This means something has 
to change, and it isn't going to be my mouth.  The Summaries need to 
change in one of two ways.

Option one is that I focus in on certain areas of interest and skip 
other ones.  I have labeled all of the summaries below with what their 
type is right under the titles.  Please email me your top ares of 
interest.  I realize that this month may not be typical but pretty much 
all areas are covered at least once so at least there is a good taste 
for the different areas.  So, choose from:

1. improvement stuff
       Pretty much anything that is not a major change to the 
language/stdlib.  Usually something you find out from the Misc/NEWS or 
the "What's New" doc.
2. how python-dev works
       Stuff like how python-dev handles things such as the PEP process, 
coding style, etc.
3. nuggets of info
       Cool tricks and ideas that come up on the list that the greater 
world probably does not know.
4. minor language change
       Stuff that deals with the language changing, but is not 
significant; such as discussions of existing PEPs.

Language evolution stuff (such as decorators) will always be covered so 
you don't need to vote on that.  If people like this first option then I 
will make sure I cover the area with most votes and everything else is 
just considered icing.

Option two out of all of this is people just say, "summarize what you 
want, Brett."  Then I just cover what I find interesting and just don't 
worry about covering a specific area.  I obviously prefer this option 
but if people really care about a specific area I want to make sure to 
cover it.  What will most likely happen is I will still cover almost 
everything but the thoroughness will be lower.  I will go more off of 
memory for example.

But something will change.  Being on the sidelines for the decorators 
discussion because I dreaded having to start reading all of those emails 
in terms of summarizing is not acceptable (and no, I can't just ignore 
some of them since that is just not how I work).  Having to read 1,289 
emails for just the first two weeks of this month finally caused me to 
lose my sanity.

Another question becomes whether people miss the "Skipped Threads" 
feature of the Summaries.  If you do let me know and I can go back to 
doing that by just listing the threads that I don't cover (but with no 
one-liners probably, but it is possible, or linking to the archives; you 
would just get the subject line in a long list of threads I didn't 
bother covering).  If that would be *really* helpful then let me know 
about that as well.

========
Summary
========
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Multiple interpreters at a time in a C program kind of broken
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. nuggets of info

Philip Eby thought he might have a fix for a known limitation of running 
multiple interpeters at once (using PyInterpreter_New() ) and having 
imports not being clearly separated between interpreters.  But Martin v. 
L?wis popped Philip's bubble somewhat by saying that he and some other 
people viewed multiple interpreter support as inherently broken.

Contributing threads:
   - `Safe to change a thread's interpreter? 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046593.html>`__


--------------------------------------------
Another sucker becomes an official developer
--------------------------------------------
2. how python-dev works

Sean Reifschneider took the bait to become another one of Guido's minions.

Sean has been maintaining the RPM spec files for quite a while.

Contributing threads:
   - `New developer 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046595.html>`__


----------------------------------------
Discovering leaks with a regrtest wrench
----------------------------------------
1. minor language change

Michael Hudson, who found and fixed a bunch of refcount leaks shortly 
after 2.3 was released, used his magical regrtest patch (which has 
subsequently been checked in) to hunt down leaks for 2.4 .  A bunch of 
tests were cleaned up to make them not raise false-positives along with 
fixing some true leaks.

Contributing threads:
   - `refleak hunting season 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046611.html>`__


---------------------------------
Another Bug Day has come and gone
---------------------------------
2. how python-dev works

The Bug Day held on August 7 led to 19 bugs and 12 patches being closed. 
  You can see the results at 
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/PythonBugDayStatus .

Feel guilty for not being able to make it?  Still want to help?  Go to 
that page to see bugs that could use some squashing that shouldn't be 
too difficult to deal with.

Contributing threads:
   - `Bug day coming up this Saturday 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046645.html>`__


--------------------------------------------------
How to shut a compiler up about an unused variable
--------------------------------------------------
3. nuggets of info

Tim Peters had come up with some optimizations for list.pop() that 
avoided unneeded test+branches.  The problem is that it led to a 
variable possibly being unused.  C compilers tend to complain about that 
and so an initial solution was used.  Unfortunately gcc complained about 
it, and so yours truly came up with one.  But that solution was labeled 
as "perverse" (and it was; total hack solution), so another solution was 
found thanks to Sjoerd Mullender by just taking the variable and casting 
it to void.

Contributing threads:
   - `RE: [Python-checkins] python/dist/src/Objects listobject.c, ... 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046678.html>`__


------------------------------------------------------
Variable sequence unpacking assignment shot down again
------------------------------------------------------
language evolution

David Cole suggested adding the ability to have sequence unpacking 
assignment
just like \*args for parameters; ``a, b, *c = (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5)  # a == 
0, b == 2, c == (3, 4, 5)``.  This idea got a -1 from Guido as not 
really needed.  That reaction makes Guido consistent; the idea was 
originally shot down back in Nov. 2002; 
http://www.python.org/dev/summary/2002-11-16_2002-11-30.html#half-baked-proposal-and-in-assignments 
.  If you really like that idea the previous summary contains a function 
that helps you do this in a way.

Contributing threads:
   - `Tuple/list assignment question 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046684.html>`__


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Changing the Big-O complexity for something in the language is now a 
language feature
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
language evolution

Armin Rigo came up with a way to have string concatenation in a loop 
(think ``for thing in iter_of_strings: concat_str += thing``) not be a 
quadratic algorithm thanks to some trickery for ``a = a + b`` and ``a += 
b`` conditions for strings.  The hope was to remove the (commonly 
considered) wart of having ``"".join(iter_of_strings)`` be the suggested 
way to concatenate a bunch of strings.

But Guido didn't like the patch.  His reasoning was that changing 
something that led to a change in the Big-O complexity of certain 
algorithms would inherently hurt other implementations of Python when 
people would start to code specifically for that performance gain.  For 
instance, having Jython be able to pull this trick off is, I believe, 
near impossible.  So, in order to make sure changes like this are 
considered before applying them, Guido instated a new rule that 
"implementation features that affect not just the running speed but the 
O() rate for certain algorithms should be considered language features, 
because any implementation will be required to implement them in order 
to ensure code portability" between implementations of Python.

In the end, though, this went in with a warning that the speed 
performance is not portable.  It is not to be used in the stdlib ever.

Contributing threads:
   - `Optimized string concatenation 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046686.html>`__
   - `PEP 0008 confusion - here it is, but don't use it? 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047194.html>`__


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bet you didn't think about string interning and how that affects .pyc, 
did you?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. minor language change

Luckily Martin v. L?wis did.  A patch was originally applied to not 
intern strings representing filenames.  Problem is that every code 
object stores that string, so it increases .pyc files since it has to 
store multiple copies of that string instead of just one.

Contributing threads:
   - `Re: [Python-checkins] python/dist/src/Python compile.c ... 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046703.html>`__


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
`PEP 324`_ (process - New POSIX process module) != process.py from 
ActiveState
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. minor language change

Guido asked if the APIs between the module proposed in `PEP 324`_ and 
the process.py module by Trent Mick of ActiveState were compatible. 
Turns out they are not.  Then the discussion went into select(), broken 
pipes, and other stuff not relevant to the OP.  =)

.. _PEP 324: http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0324.html

Contributing threads:
   - `PEP 324 (process module) 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046707.html>`__


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Getting it so string literals accept those nutty non-ASCII characters 
more easily (and getting files to be more upfront about their Unicode-ness)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
language evolution

Fran?ois Pinard asked what people thought about two things related to 
Unicode.  First, he thought having a __coding__ attribute for files that 
contained the encoding of the text would be nice.  Martin v. L?wis said 
it would be possible.  MA Lemburg added his vote of support.  It has not 
been implemented to my knowledge yet, though.

The second idea was to have a directive of some sort on a per-module 
basis so that all string literals could be considered in something other 
than ASCII.  Once again Martin said it was doable with MA saying he 
liked the idea.  But it was pointed out that you might as well just use 
the 'u' in front of strings now.

This led to a slight discussion on good i18n practices.  Both Martin and 
MA seemed to suggest that if you are going to be doing most of your work 
in a single encoding then just use that and declare everything Unicode. 
  ANd if you are going to support a lot of different languages, use 
gettext and such.  Martin also stated it is best to get text into 
Unicode ASAP and then only convert to the final encoding at the last moment.

Contributing threads:
   - `Python in Unicode context 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046727.html>`__


----------------------------------------------------------------------
An exception is an exception, unless it doesn't inherit from Exception
----------------------------------------------------------------------
language evolution

Coming up in a discussion on Unicode of all things, a discussion on 
moving exceptions over to new-style classes came up.  Guido pointed out 
that moving over to new-style classes would seem to suddenly require 
that anything passed to 'raise' be a new-style class and that goes 
against the current acceptance.

But in comes Paul Prescod with his argument that exceptions are 
inherently organized based on inheritance and thus requiring things 
being passed to 'raise' subclass Exception somewhere is not that big of 
a thing.  Guido really liked that point.  So if it goes this way and you 
don't like it blame Paul (who is a nice guy, so go easy on him  =).

And then along come Holger Krekel bringing up the point that using 
exceptions to do non-standard flow control is handy.  But the question 
was asked as to why he couldn't still just subclass Exception?  Was it 
that big of a deal?  He admitted it wasn't and said when the name 
Raisable was suggested that would make it easier.

Michael Hudson then came in and wrote up a hacked-up patch to turn 
exceptions into new-style classes.  Most stuff seemed to still work.

Python 3 was already going to switch to new-style classes for exceptions 
and string exceptions have already been deprecated.  Now add to the mix 
the possible requirement that anything passed to 'raise' require a 
common base class.

Contributing threads (note that the thread starts part way in a thread 
on Unicode and end before the end of the full thread):
   - `Python in Unicode context 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046757.html>`__


-------------------------
Python 2.4a2 out the door
-------------------------
language evolution

Python 2.4a2 has been released.  As usual, please download it and test 
it with your code along with the regression test suite.

Contributing threads:
   - `trunk frozen for 2.4a2 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046822.html>`__
   - `RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046864.html>`__


-------------------------------------------------------
Amendment to how to compile with the free .NET compiler
-------------------------------------------------------
3. nuggets of info

Nick Coghlan expanded upon my summary on how to compile with the free 
.NET compiler under Windows at 
http://www.python.org/dev/summary/2004-07-16_2004-07-31.html#how-to-get-python-to-compile-with-microsoft-s-free-compiler-that-should-just-come-with-the-os-standard 
.  See his email at 
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047215.html on 
the extra steps.

Or just move to another OS.

Contributing threads:
   - `python-dev Summary for 2004-07-16 through 2004-07-31 [draft] 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047215.html>`__


--------------------------------------
Darned Solaris, g++, and _XOPEN_SOURCE
--------------------------------------
1. improvement stuff

Skip Montanaro discovered that building under Solaris with g++ raised a 
warning about redefining _XOPEN_SOURCE.  pyconfig.h defines it, but 
apparently so does g++ in order for Solaris' toolchain to expose some 
code that is only available if it is defined.  Martin v. L?wis came up 
with a couple of suggestions on how to handle this.  Skip ended up going 
with the idea of setting _XOPEN_SOURCE to the same value as it is 
defined by g++.

Contributing threads:
   - `use of #pragma GCC system_header to suppress _XOPEN_SOURCE 
warnings 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046955.html>`__


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
pre-PEP on a function for re that "captures matches for groups that 
match repeatedly"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. minor language change

Mike Coleman presented a pre-PEP (newest version at 
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047238.html ) on 
adding a function to re that would create a tree (in the form of a list) 
containing all group matches in a string.  It got a little support, but 
the discussion quickly moved over to dreamings of a full-on scanner or 
parser package for the stdlib.

But if the idea of the PEP works for you then speak up on c.l.py .

Contributing threads:
   - `pre-PEP: Complete, Structured Regular Expression Group Matching 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047042.html>`__


---------------------------------------
Making ourselves follow the PEP process
---------------------------------------
2. how python-dev works

It was noticed early on that the PEP process had broken down for `PEP 
318`_ (decorators).  What should happen is a PEP gets written (and the 
author becomes its champion), there is a public discussion, the PEP is 
updated, that's repeated until it is deemed done, gets get BDFL 
pronouncement, if Guido okays it the code goes in.  Unfortunately the 
part about  updating the PEP didn't really happen.

This led to two major things being stated and generally agreed upon. 
One is that PEPs should not be checked in if the PEP has not been 
updated.  While a minor nit is not a reason to hold back code, not 
updating after a major public debate is not acceptable.

This directly segued into the other point of a PEP needs to have a 
champion, period.  Since the developers on python-dev do not have the 
time to keep PEPs updated it is up to the PEP champion to make sure it 
is kept current.  If it isn't it is take to mean the champion no longer 
cares, which means python-dev no longer cares, which means the PEP gets 
rejected outright.  This will also make sure that there is a focus to 
the design of what the PEP wants and does not lead to a 
design-by-committee problem.

.. _PEP 318: http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0318.html

Contributing threads:
   - `PEP 318, and the PEP process 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047020.html>`__


----------------------------------------------------------------
How to tell Windows from Linux without lifting up anyone's skirt
----------------------------------------------------------------
3. nuggets of info

The question came up on what the best way was to tell what platform you 
are running on.  The answer came down to why you were cared.  If it was 
whether or not you had a specific functionality (or lack thereof), then 
just test for the functionality.  If you had other needs, though, using 
sys.platform seemed to be the most reliable way (at least for Windows 
since all of them use 'win32').

Contributing threads:
   - `Asyncore .set_reuse_addr() on Windows 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047269.html>`__


-----------------------------------------
func_name can now have an identity crisis
-----------------------------------------
1. improvement stuff

Thanks to the rampant decorator discussion, Skip Montanaro came up with 
the idea of wanting func_name to be writable.  This would allow 
decorators to wrap a function with another function and yet reset 
func_name to its original value, thus not having the wrapper function 
become the prevailing name.

Guido liked and Michael Hudson subsequently wrote up `patch #1004703`_.

.. _patch #1004703: http://www.python.org/sf/1004703

Contributing threads:
   - `PEP 318 - writing to func_name attribute 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047097.html>`__


-----------------------------------------
statistics.py ain't goin' into the stdlib
-----------------------------------------
1. improvement stuff

Raymond Hettinger (at the last Python Bug Day) made the statement that 
he didn't think 'statistic's should be taken out of the sandbox in CVS 
and put into the stdlib.  He felt that most of the important algorithms 
were available elsewhere (such as nsmallest and nlargest in the heapq 
module) and the remaining functions that were not found anywhere were 
not that critical.

He did say, though, he would like to do a calculator module where those 
remaining functions could go.

Contributing threads:
   - `status of statistics.py? 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047129.html>`__


------------------------------------
Making re.split care about emptiness
------------------------------------
1. improvement stuff

Mike Coleman wrote up a patch for re.split() that AM Kuchling presented 
to the list.  It adds an argument to the function to allow an empty 
string to be put into the resulting list when a match occurs, even if 
the match consumes no characters.  This allows delimiters used in the 
regex to still appear in the groups.

No decision on the exact semantics of the function, how to handle 
turning on the new functionality (some say an extra argument, some say 
adding another bit flag like traditional re arguments), or even if it 
will be accepted.

Contributing threads:
   - `re.split on empty patterns 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047272.html>`__


----------------------------------------
Pickler's 'bin' argument on its last leg
----------------------------------------
1. improvement stuff

As per `PEP 307`_ (Extensions to the pickle protocol), the 'bin' 
argument is being upgraded from PendingDeprecationWarning to 
DeprecationWarning; so it's gone plaid and the only way to stop it is 
with some emergency change.

.. _PEP 307: http://www.python.org./peps/pep-0307.html

Contributing threads:
   - `Pickler()'s bin argument 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047274.html>`__


---------------------------------
Some modules are getting the boot
---------------------------------
1. improvement stuff

TERMIOS, mpz, statcache, xreadlines and rotor are all being removed. 
mimify, MimeWriter, and whrandom will raise a DeprecationWarning. 
rfc822 and mimetools will not be raising DeprecationWarning as specified 
by `PEP 4`_ since some code in the stdlib still uses it.

.. _PEP 4: http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0004.html

Contributing threads:
   - `Removing stuff from 2.4 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047308.html>`__


-------------------------------------------------
Should decimal.Context.copy() be deep or shallow?
-------------------------------------------------
1. improvement stuff

Raymond Hettinger brought up the question of whether 
decimal.Context.copy() should be a deep or shallow copy.  While 
tradition dictates it be shallow based on name, it seems like the 
functionality should be deep.  No one wants context to be shared between 
number naturally since numbers tend to be viewed as unique things.

Staring in 2.4a3 it will be deep unless people come up with reasons to 
switch it to shallow.

Contributing threads:
   - `decimal.Context.copy() shallow or deep? 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047416.html>`__


----------------------------------------------------------
The dark corners of Python allow you to skip return values
----------------------------------------------------------
3. nuggets of info

Christian Tismer discovered that you can actually stop a return 
statement from returning if you encase it in a 'finally' block and tweak 
it slightly (see the OP to get what I mean by this).  Turns out this is 
a reliable feature of Python if you really want to use it.

Contributing threads:
   - `capturing RETURN_VALUE 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047360.html>`__


--------------------------------------
Is an int/long combined type worth it?
--------------------------------------
language evolution

Dmitry Vasiliev pointed out that `PEP 237`_ (Unifying Long Integers and 
Integers) mentioned that a a new type named 'integer' might be 
introduced that subclassed both int and long.  The discussion waivered 
between whether it was at all needed, and if it was if it should be a 
true type or just a tuple containing both types for use with isinstance() .

No conclusion was reached in the end.

.. _PEP 237: http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0237.html

Contributing threads:
   - `Unifying Long Integers and Integers: baseint 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047404.html>`__


--------------------------------------
Should byte arrays be a built-in type?
--------------------------------------
language evolution

Through the discussion bout having a common type combining int and long 
a discussion on whether a byte array type should be introduced.  The 
initial suggestion was for it to be practically synonymous with str 
since str itself stores everything as an array of 8-bit values.  The use 
cases would be for streams and such that just want a stream of bytes 
with no care for any encoding.

Syntactically, having a 'b' and 'B' cookie before literals was 
suggested.  The issue with this, though, is that byte arrays should be 
mutable, which would make literals that can be mutated, and that is 
frowned upon by Guido.

Semantically, aliasing bytes to the str type was suggested.  That was 
not loved since that could create confusion.  Returning an object from 
'array' was suggested and seemed okay.

In general it seemed this could be useful and could go in 2.5, but 
nothing for 2.4 .

Contributing threads:
   - `Unifying Long Integers and Integers: baseint 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047665.html>`__


-----------------------------
Thar the Windows stack blows!
-----------------------------
1. minor language change

Running the new test_compiler test (if you run it with ``-uall`` for 
regrtest it will recompile the entire stdlib) was leading to an odd 
failure: the "process on Windows "just vanishes" without a trace, and 
without an error message of any kind, but with an exit code of 128". 
After a lot of work put in by a bunch of people (led by Tim Peters) the 
problem was tracked down to a blown C stack.

Turned out that the stack-checking code was not being called frequently 
enough to pick up the error.  The problem with this was that it was 
leading to odd errors that should have been MemoryError but were 
manifesting themselves as KeyError.  This was because PyDict_GetItem() 
was failing and return NULL which is the same as signaling the key 
doesn't exist in the dict.

Trick was trying to come up with a good way to deal with this.  Adding 
more calls would be very expensive (reliable way of catching it was 
sticking a check in pymalloc code) and so that was ruled out. 
PyDict_GetItem() couldn't change its return value since that would break 
more code than could be imagined.  So, in the end, the stack was 
increased to 2 MB on Windows.

Contributing threads:
   - `Another test_compiler mystery 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047468.html>`__


------------------------------------------
Someone else falls for the dangling carrot
------------------------------------------
2. how python-dev works

Johannes Gijsbers now has checkin rights.  May he close many bugs.

Contributing threads:
   - `New Developer 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047815.html>`__


----------------------------------------------------------
Lying about being in __builtin__ is not always a bad thing
----------------------------------------------------------
1. improvement stuff

James Knight noticed that some objects (mostly C types such as iterators 
for the built-in types and such) claim in their __module__ attribute 
that they come from __builtin__ which is not technically correct since 
you can't access them from there.  The desire to fix this came from 
allowing for proper introspection.  The leading idea is to put these 
types in __builtin__ properly so that they are no longer lying about 
where they come from.

Contributing threads:
   - `Classes that claim to be defined in __builtin__ but aren't 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047477.html>`__


---------------------------------------------------------
Bringing order to the order of application for decorators
---------------------------------------------------------
1. minor language change

Turns out that the order of application for decorators was implemented 
in the reverse order of what it was supposed to be in 2.4a2 .  Luckily 
James Knight spotted this and let the list know.  It has been fixed, 
though, in CVS and now follows `PEP 318`_ to apply in bottom-up order::

   @first
   @second
   def blah(): pass

is equivalent to::

   blah = first(second(blah))

The arguments for this ordering beyond it just making more sense to 
Guido and others is that people will typically put decorators such as 
staticmethod and classmethod first.  Going with the original order would 
have led to errors in most situations if people were not expecting to be 
receiving a class or static method to be passed to the other decorators.

There was a short discussion on the order of instantiation for the 
decorators, but in the end the order chosen was the order listed; first 
would be first() instantiated followed by second().

Contributing threads:
   - `Decorator order implemented backwards? 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047512.html>`__


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PEP 292 (Simpler String Substitutions) getting gussied up for the Python 
2.4a3 ball
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. minor language change

`PEP 292`_'s implementation got fixed up.  The names of the class names 
were changed to Template and SafeTemplate, the whole process was made 
lazy, and just cleaned up in general (solution is small, simple, and 
rather cool; all subclassable and works with Unicode to boot).

But then questions over the merits of $-based string interpolation 
popped up.  People wondered if going from ``%(blah)s`` to ``${blah}`` 
was worth it.  The answer is "yes".  And that is just worst case; when 
you just want ``$blah`` you get an even bigger win.

The other question was over whether the string module should become a 
package.  The original idea was to stick the original string module in 
as a submodule of the package and the Template code in another module. 
This would allow easy removal of the 'string' module code that has been 
deprecated for eons.  Barry Warsaw (author of the PEP) asked Guido to 
make the call on this, but he hasn't had the time yet to get to this.

.. _PEP 292: http://www.python.org./peps/pep-0292.html

Contributing threads:
   - `PEP 292 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047580.html>`__


--------------------------------
Multi-line imports get clarified
--------------------------------
1. minor language change

Multi-line imports will only accept parentheses around what is being 
explicitly imported and only if there is more than one item being 
imported.  Trailing commas are also to be accepted.

Contributing threads:
   - `Multi-line import implementation (first part) 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047393.html>`__
   - `Multi-line import implementation (second part) 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047614.html>`__
   - `Naming nit 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047641.html>`__


------------------------------------------------
For those of you who need Python to run on Win64
------------------------------------------------
3. nuggets of info

Nick Bastin asked if anyone has gotten Python 2.3 to work under Win64. 
Martin v. L?wis said "yes" for Python 2.4, but not for 2.3 .  He 
suggested to Nick that he run vsextcomp_ to generate the targets on the 
2.4 VC 7 build files and then move that over to 2.3 .

.. _vsextcomp: http://www.sf.net/projects/vsextcomp

Contributing threads:
   - `2.3.4 on Win64? 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047631.html>`__


----------------------------------------------
Sometimes concealing the truth is a good thing
----------------------------------------------
1. improvement stuff

Nick Coghlan discovered that some of the function in the 'commands' 
module did actually work under Windows and he wanted to make sure it was 
okay to fix another module to work under Windows and to document the 
fact.  But the whole idea was shot down by both Tim Peters and Guido in 
order to keep the module simple.  Keeping the whole thing UNIX-only is 
much easier than having an API that is only partly compatible with 
Windows (and with only certain versions of Windows at that).  Guido also 
said that the module would not even be accepted today since it doesn't 
add enough functionality.

Contributing threads:
   - `'commands' module on Win32 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047774.html>`__


----------------------------------------------
atexit module, good; sys.exitfunc, not so good
----------------------------------------------
1. improvement stuff

Raymond Hettinger pointed out that the docs for the atexit module state 
that sys.exitfunc was to be deprecated.  Well, atexit has been in the 
stdlib since 2.0 so the deprecation is long overdue.  Looks like it will 
get its deprecation finally.

Contributing threads:
   - `Deprecate sys.exitfunc? 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047842.html>`__


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My Personal Hell: decorators and the people who suggest new syntax for 
them...  next, on Oprah
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
language evolution

What led to a record-setting flurry of emails to python-dev was set up 
when Guido gave the green light to checking in code to implement 
decorators using the '@' syntax (now known at the pie syntax thanks to 
its checkin coming very shortly after the OSCON Pie-thon competition and 
'@' sort of looking like a pie).  People didn't like it.  People were 
screaming that there had to be a better syntax than just settling for 
the least offensive one.  Others started to question whether decorators 
were really needed.  Others wanted to extend them even more and what 
their role truly was.  Either way this was all coming a little late.

But then Guido decided to make my life difficult by saying that if the 
community could come up with an agreed-upon alternative syntax to 
propose to him he would consider ripping out the '@' syntax; decorators 
have always been experimental and '@' was checked in so people had 
*something* to play with.  This meant everyone and their mother started 
to propose both new and old syntaxes for decorators.  This led to a 
record amount of email on python-dev (at least compared to what we have 
archives for; back to April 1999).

In order of my own personal sanity I am not going to cover any specific 
syntax.  There are just too many and I actually like the '@' syntax 
(just *try* using it; it grows on you quickly).  Instead this summary 
will cover any important design considerations for decorators (it should 
all be in the PEP but so much happened there is no way it all got in 
there) along with any other important considerations about them.  I will 
discuss anything specific to the '@' syntax since it is the currently 
winning syntax.

With that said, `PEP 318`_ and the PythonDecorators_ wiki page are the 
de-facto place for info on this whole situation.  I am probably going to 
be more biased than normal in this summary just out of time restraints 
to get this done by not over-analyzing people's suggestions and just 
assuming what I summarize here is not covered elsewhere; checking if it 
is would take too long.

First off, going with a syntax just so you could add backward-compatible 
support was not considered worth it.  It's a new feature so there is no 
need to hobble it at the get-go just so people who don't want to upgrade 
can still use it.  Plus the implementations to make this even possible 
were playing some tricks with the interpreter and not considered a good 
thing.  Besides you can, always will be able to, still use the way to do 
it in 2.2 and beyond.

Another design point that needed to be taken into consideration was 
ambiguity.  There could not be a question about what is a decorator and 
what isn't (list-before-def is an example of a syntax that can be 
ambiguous).

Syntactic support that allowed for possible future compiler 
optimizations was also considered important.  The on-going hope is to 
eventually get a JIT compiler for Python and if the decorators are not 
placed before the def somehow you make it much harder to optimize since 
you learn about the decorators after the fact of the function starting 
to be defined.

An argument against '@' was that people thought it got rather unwieldy 
quickly (and I am sure the new decision that each decorator must be on 
its own line is not making these objectors happy).  But one thing that 
must be remembered is that chances are most functions will not need more 
than one decorator if the even need one.  Looking through the stdlib 
sans the test suite you will notice there are not a lot of uses for any 
of the built-in decorators.  Yes, usage will probably grow with 
syntactic support for decorators, but not exponentially in terms of 
applying multiple decorators to a single function.

Allowing decorators to take arguments is a requirement.  Not being able 
to pass arguments to a decorator at instantiation time would severely 
cripple their usefulness.

Being prefix instead of postfix was considered important.  Knowing about 
what is coming up was something Guido thought is better than finding out 
about some special tweak to the use of a function based on a decorator 
listed after the definition line.  And in the method body had been 
completely ruled out.

In terms of implementation details, decorators can only be functions 
directly (and not lambda).  This means no ``@a or b`` tricks and such. 
It also means ``@foo().bar()`` is not allowed.  This is all gut feeling 
from Guido for why the restriction should be there.  It could change in 
the future since it is easier to loosen restrictions that make something 
more strict.

A problem with '@' in terms of portability is that Leo_ and IPython_ 
both use '@' for special syntax.  The authors of both tools seem willing 
to change their tools (not necessarily overly joyous, though  =) .

Guido wanted a syntax "that ... [is] easy to remember once explained". 
It did not need to be miraculously obvious what it did just by looking 
at the first time.

Some people didn't like '@' because they keep wanting to say "at" when 
they saw it.  To that, I give you Tim Peters' fix for this: "Pick the 
keyword you'd like.  Then whenever you see "@", pronounce
that word instead <wink>".

A single decorator that applied to multiple code blocks is completely 
out.  Guido gave a couple of reasons why, but one that he had mentioned 
multiple times is indenting the code block again just for the decorator 
is out.

Some people suggested that things be kept simple by just throwing out 
the entire idea of syntactic support.  Could happen if everyone agreed 
to that, but I wouldn't count on it.

A supposed knock against '@' was that it wasn't Pythonic.  Well, it is 
Pythonic if Guido says it is so not really a valid argument.


OK, tirade time.  If you don't want to listen to me get up on my 
soapbox, then just skip the rest of this...

"In the old days, Guido would Pronounce, and we'd all bite our tongues 
(although not necessarily each his own).  The less time Guido can make 
for Python, the more important becomes graceful capitulation."  Tim said 
this and it makes me wish for the old days.  People had *months* to 
comment on decorators and no one spoke up until something went into the 
language.  Procrastination is not a virtue when it comes to major 
language evolution discussions.  What was worse was when the emails 
started repeating themselves (which was pretty much from the get-go when 
this exploded).  Seemed like people decided to start talking without 
doing some research.  Granted the PEP was outdated and the wiki page was 
not up yet, but this stuff was covered in the Summaries before and you 
could have just Googled for the previous threads.

Personally, if I was Guido, I would have said that the community had 
their chance to speak up and they just didn't take it.  But Guido is a 
nicer guy than that so people are getting a second chance with this. 
Personally this came off a great case of the tyranny of the majority in 
my eyes.  There is a reason why Python is a dictatorship.

At this point people should be hashing out which syntax alternative they 
want to present to Guido on comp.lang.python_.  No more talking on 
python-dev, no more syntax proposals.  The community should set a goal 
date (Sept. 1 seems good) and just choose a bloody alternative.  Then 
when Guido makes his choice people accept it or just go to another 
language.  No one had better voice their disappoint once Guido chooses 
his syntax or I will personally come beat you over with a stick for 
being a whiner.

OK, that's out of my system.  I feel better now.

.. _PythonDecorators: 
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/PythonDecorators
.. _Leo: http://leo.sourceforge.net/
.. _IPython: http://ipython.scipy.org/

Contributing threads (sans emails that were warnocked):
   - `2.4a2, and @decorators 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046599.html>`__
   - `Plea for simpler decorator syntax,	in addition to pie-shaped 
syntax 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046798.html>`__
   - `Call for defense of @decorators 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046878.html>`__
   - `@decorators, the PEP and the "options" out there? 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046905.html>`__
   - `About pep 318--Intro 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046918.html>`__
   - `Questions about '@' in pep 318 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046934.html>`__
   - `A usability argument for list-after-def 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046935.html>`__
   - `The impact of '@' on Leo 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046937.html>`__
   - `Similar syntax 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046969.html>`__
   - `def fn (args) [dec,dec]: 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047112.html>`__
   - `pep 318, Decorators for Functions, Methods and Classes 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047132.html>`__
   - `Density of pie-decorator syntax 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047154.html>`__
   - `elements of decorator syntax suggestions 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047185.html>`__
   - `318: Annotation background 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047218.html>`__
   - `IPython, @, and option E from the wiki 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047223.html>`__
   - `Decorators: vertical bar syntax 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047231.html>`__
   - `Suggesting '.' decorators (PEP318) 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047234.html>`__
   - `Attribute strings? 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047362.html>`__
   - `request: add keywords for static and class methods only 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047498.html>`__
   - `@decorator syntax is sugar, but for what exactly? 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047500.html>`__
   - `Semantics of decorators? 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047623.html>`__
   - `A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!) 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047625.html>`__
   - `Another approach to decorators. 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047647.html>`__
   - `Decorators after 'def' should be reconsidered 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047637.html>`__
   - `def ... decorate 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047781.html>`__
   - `Decorator syntax J2 (decorate..def) 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047807.html>`__
   - `Decorators and docstrings 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047827.html>`__
   - `block-based decorators and other block issues 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047839.html>`__
   - `More concerns about decorators 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047863.html>`__



From asqui at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 17 05:50:30 2004
From: asqui at hotmail.com (asqui)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 02:50:30 -0700
Subject: Case sensitivity bug in ConfigParser?
Message-ID: <20568caa.0408170150.fbcc542@posting.google.com>

[Apologies if this posted twice... google groups timed out on the form
POST]

(Assume an instantiated ConfigParser, c, with a loaded file)
>>> c.get("DEFAULT", "foo", False, {"foo": "Bar"})
'Bar'

>>> c.get("DEFAULT", "Foo", False, {"Foo": "Bar"})
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<pyshell#70>", line 1, in ?
    c.get("DEFAULT", "Foo", False, {"Foo": "Bar"})
  File "C:\Python23\lib\ConfigParser.py", line 513, in get
    raise NoOptionError(option, section)
NoOptionError: No option 'foo' in section: 'DEFAULT'


The offending code appears to be as follows (in ConfigParser.py):
    def get(self, section, option):
        opt = self.optionxform(option)
        if section not in self._sections:
            if section != DEFAULTSECT:
                raise NoSectionError(section)
            if opt in self._defaults:
                return self._defaults[opt]
            else:
                raise NoOptionError(option, section)
        elif opt in self._sections[section]:
            return self._sections[section][opt]
        elif opt in self._defaults:
            return self._defaults[opt]
        else:
            raise NoOptionError(option, section)

It uses optionxform on the supplied option, but not on the one in the
defaults dictionary. If you're going to impose a transform then you
have to do it consistently, imho...

>>> c.get("DEFAULT", "Foo", False, {"foo": "Bar"})
'Bar'

The supplied "Foo" gets transformed to "foo" and matches the one in
the defaults dictionary.

Seems a bit counterintuitive to expect that you supply any defaults as
pre-transformed according to your specified optionxform.

I'm not sure if this is also a problem when reading a file, but there
seems to be a related post about this (with no replies!) dating back
to 2000 http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=8suc1f%24mf9%241%40nnrp1.deja.com

I don't have time to look into it now but I'd guess this problem was
resolved in the more obvious location (when reading a file) but
patching of the defaults dictionary case was omitted.


asqui


From me at privacy.net  Mon Aug  9 22:37:19 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Dan Sommers)
Date: 09 Aug 2004 22:37:19 -0400
Subject: Popular Python projects with lots of pure Python code
References: <mailman.1418.1092088893.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m2vffren1c.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 15:01:29 -0700,
"Brett C." <bac at OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:

> For my thesis (once the bloody thing stops throwing bugs at me) I am
> going to need to collect stats on the frequency that atomic types in
> local variables are applied to various opcodes and methods.  That means
> that I need something to collect stats off of.

> So I am trying to come up with a list of projects I can use to get my
> stats from.  the stdlib is a no-brainer.  Also plan to use Docutils. But
> beyond those most of the big Python projects I can think of have a ton
> of C code which is of no use to me.  I don't need to be able to run it,
> just going to be compiling to .py files.

> Any suggestions?

It's not a project, as such, but how about Python's standard library?

Tons and tons of python code, written by the best python coders around.

Regards,
Dan

-- 
Dan Sommers
<http://www.tombstonezero.net/dan/>
Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.


From robin at reportlab.com  Thu Aug 12 13:48:41 2004
From: robin at reportlab.com (Robin Becker)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 18:48:41 +0100
Subject: PEP318
In-Reply-To: <eppstein-09AC84.10350212082004@news.service.uci.edu>
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<20040812090056.00001e31@titan>
	<7ttmh0t8c3cogtbhhnp1ohqu8b51pda461@4ax.com>
	<eppstein-09AC84.10350212082004@news.service.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <411BAD79.3090107@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>

David Eppstein wrote:
> In article <7ttmh0t8c3cogtbhhnp1ohqu8b51pda461 at 4ax.com>,
>  Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>foo=staticmathed(foo).
>>
>>That is the universal langauge for transformations.  And when we try
>>to explain to anybody what it is that @decorator means, we go back to
>>the pseudo code that is in fact the existing syntax.
>>
>>I guess I am mystified what it is that is perceived to have been
>>gained ... by moving magic outside the function block to the top of a
>>function in lieu of expressive code outside the function block at the
>>bottom of the function.
> 
> 
> Not having to write the function name three times?  If it's just foo, 
> that would be one thing, but have you seen the PyObjC examples?
> 
> Also, it's not in the Zen of Python, but maybe declarative is better 
> than imperative?
> 

I think I'm with Arthur in that the current transformation notation is sufficient.

If people wish to avoid three names then we need proper anonymous functions as 
others stated.

To avoid lots of extra parentheses we need a function call composition mechanism 
or for people to define the functions they need rather than have arbitrary lists 
of operators.
-- 
Robin Becker


From rubyguru at hotmail.com  Tue Aug  3 22:17:11 2004
From: rubyguru at hotmail.com (Chris Dutton)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 02:17:11 GMT
Subject: Does python support multi prototype.
In-Reply-To: <2natmnFv86rjU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <2natmnFv86rjU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <HGXPc.1098$M95.865@pd7tw1no>

angel wrote:
> Hi
> 
> Java and cpp support one function name multi function prototype.
> For example:
> A:
> int func1(String s){}
> int func1(int i){}
> 
> B:
> int func1(String s){}
> int func1(String s, int i){}
> 
> Does python support it?

No, but it doesn't have to.  The type of a function's arguments are not 
statically limited.

def foo(bar):
    print bar

I can call this as easily with one type as with another:

foo(1)
foo("baz")

As for the number of arguments a function takes, it's possible to use 
the * operator to slurp extra arguments up into a list.

def foo(bar, *extras):
    ...

foo(1)
foo("baz")
foo("baz", "hello", "world")


From lepi--REMOVE-THIS-FROM-HERE at fly.srk.fer.hr  Fri Aug 20 10:39:48 2004
From: lepi--REMOVE-THIS-FROM-HERE at fly.srk.fer.hr (Tomislav Lepusic)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:39:48 +0200
Subject: WSDL/SOAP/XML-RPC HELP
Message-ID: <cg52h2$f14$2@bagan.srce.hr>

Hello,

I don't know if this is the right group (I'm more in Perl, know nothing 
about Python), so if you can help me thanks, if not, sorry to bother you.


I'm working on my student project and I'm totally lost and don't have 
any idea how to continue, and the deadline is 1.9.2004. Please help, 
'couse i'm loosing myself in this XML/SOAP/RPC/WSDL things......

A little discription.
I have to define and make something like virtual driver for serial port 
(RS232), only it isn't really a driver. The server has to be on Linux 
box (physical port(s) is/are there), and the other side (client) is not 
inportant. It is not important what is connected on serial port. Also, 
there is no need to work on any kind of drivers on Windows or something, 
becouse that is not the point. I have to make an universal way to 
send/recive/control serial port on that server computer from anywhere. I 
know how to program for serial port on Linux (in C), and I have made 
some progress there. That low-level programing isn't the problem. The 
problem is how to make it work over the net, so that someone who wants 
to write a program on Windows or Mac can use something universal to 
access it (like XML). I HAVE TO USE XML-RPC or SOAP or WSDL or 
something like that. The problem is that I don't know how to use those 
technologies. I read some tutorials, guides on XML-RPC, SOAP and WSDL, 
and I'm totally lost now.
BTW, I was planning to use Perl becouse I know something about it. (I 
don't know Java)

So, if you can help me in any way (advice, similar example or 
something), please do. This is very important to me. I forget, 
everything must be secure (SSL or something).

Thank you

Tom


From eldiener at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 17 21:15:21 2004
From: eldiener at earthlink.net (Edward Diener)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 01:15:21 GMT
Subject: No validation routine for an os.path
References: <S%bUc.24081$nx2.7626@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<UOKdnTNP59f1-bzcRVn-rg@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <J4yUc.25135$nx2.20393@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>

Peter Hansen wrote:
> Edward Diener wrote:
>
>> Try as I might I can not find a routine in os.path which validates
>> whether or not a path is syntactically valid, either as a directory
>> or as a file. This is surprising since, although I know this is OS
>> dependent, Python has many other classes and functions which will
>> work properly depending on what OS they are currently running under.
>> Is there such a path validation routine in any of the libraries
>> distributed with Python or in any other 3rd party Python libraries ?
>
> I don't really think so, and the last time this sort of thing
> was discussed, I believe the conclusion was that it's not
> actually possible to do such a thing in all cases anyway,
> unless you are willing to actually attempt to create the
> file or directory during the validation.

Operating systems do have rules for what constitutes a valid file
specification and/or directory specification. Some even have API functions
which can be called to directly find out.

>
> One reason I recall being given is that even on a given OS, different
> file systems may support different sets of characters for filenames.
> For example, a CDROM might disallow certain characters which the
> standard file system allows, or a networked device (e.g. NFS, or
> Samba) might allow a wider range of possibilities than the permitted
> names on a hard drive.

You have a good point there. But with a file spec and a bit of work, one
should be able to tell what sort of drive is being accessed.

>
> In the end, this is somewhat like validating email addresses.  Until
> you actually try and succeed (or fail) to send the message, you cannot
> verify whether an address is "valid" for many definitions of valid.

I do not totally agree, especially as the OS will know whether something is
valid so it obviously has rules itself. But I grant it is more difficult
than might be assumed. BTW email addresses actually do have a format which
can be parsed ( RFC 822 originally ), although again it is complicated.




From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Tue Aug  3 16:32:59 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 13:32:59 -0700
Subject: Class optimization at runtime
In-Reply-To: <m2hdrl2ch5.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
References: <mailman.1061.1091479321.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<j7WdnXBx-dEhMZPcRVn-hA@comcast.com>
	<m2hdrl2ch5.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
Message-ID: <10gvtipb5t0hl44@corp.supernews.com>

Dan Sommers wrote:

>Alternatively:
>
>    module WithOption:
>        class Foo:
>            # whatever
>        class Bar:
>            # whatever
>
>    module WithOutOption:
>        class Foo:
>            # whatever
>        class Bar:
>            # whatever
>
>    if option:
>        from WithOption import *
>    else:
>        from WithoutOption import *
>
>    x = Foo( )
>  
>

Or even better:

    if option:
        import WithOption as FooModule
    else:
        import WithoutOption as FooModule

    x = FooModule.Foo( )

(I twitch every time I see 'from X import *' ...)

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From mike at skew.org  Sun Aug 15 17:27:13 2004
From: mike at skew.org (Mike Brown)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:27:13 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [XML-SIG] python and XML resources
In-Reply-To: <1092484513.411dfda120873@www-mail.usyd.edu.au> "from Ajay at Aug
	14, 2004 09:55:13 pm"
Message-ID: <200408152127.i7FLRDtO039705@chilled.skew.org>

Ajay wrote:
> does anyone know of good online resources on XML processing in Python.

Uche Ogbuji has quite a bit...

XML.com Python & XML columns:
  http://xml.com/pub/at/24

IBM developerWorks Python Web Services Developer columns:
  http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/webservices/library/ws-pythcol.html

Python & XML Akara:
http://uche.ogbuji.net/akara/nodes/2003-01-01/general-section?xslt=/akara/akara.xslt

4Suite Akara:
http://uche.ogbuji.net/akara/nodes/2003-01-01/4suite-section?xslt=/akara/akara.xslt

There used to be a PyXML Wiki at twistedmatrix.com but it disappeared
earlier this year and may be gone forever.

> I am using the PyXML package and have read the introductory XML HOWTO.
> what i am looking for is a more detailed and comprehensive coverage of the
> entire package - all the classes and functions etc

I tend to do this a lot:

$ python
>>> from xml.dom import *
>>> dir()
>>> print whatever.__doc__

"A-ha!" :)

-Mike


From jimmy at retzlaff.com  Mon Aug  9 21:55:17 2004
From: jimmy at retzlaff.com (Jimmy Retzlaff)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 18:55:17 -0700
Subject: decorators vs GIL
Message-ID: <A7B5C22F20EE3C4E95744E2F03F1887F21C7FE@MAYOR.retzlaff.com>

Jarek Zgoda wrote:
> Try GUI programming without using threads.

Windows and MacOS didn't offer support for multi-processing that was
anywhere near as SMP friendly as Python's current GIL laden threads for
several major versions of each. I believe it took Microsoft something
like 6-8 years to add threads to Windows (and at that point it was only
in NT which was far from mainstream) and Apple took something like 10
years and then only the main thread could make OS calls (e.g., no file,
network, or GUI access was possible in background threads). So, a few of
us have successfully done GUI programming without using threads - in
fact very little commercial GUI software used threads before 1995.

I've done GUI programming for more than 15 years (5 of those in Python)
and the only time the GIL (or the lack of threads in Win/Mac) has come
close to getting in my way has been in non-GUI apps that needed to do
lots of number crunching. The GIL turned out to be a blessing in
disguise for me. It led me to split my processing into multiple
processes (which took a matter of minutes). That enabled me to run my
app on several machines instead of just 2 CPUs which gave me MUCH more
capacity.

I'm sure there are apps where the GIL would truly be a problem, but I
share the opinion that those are a tiny fraction of the total number of
Python programs. I suspect Python's computational performance would be
at least as big a problem in many of those cases. I would definitely be
interested in reading about specific cases as opposed to general fears,
but they aren't posted very often.

Jimmy



From mwh at python.net  Fri Aug 27 07:09:45 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:09:45 GMT
Subject: Best processor (i386) for Python performance?
References: <789f72ac.0408251950.e85d23e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <m3zn4gg7lz.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

tom at livelogix.com (Tom Locke) writes:

> Hi All,
> 
> I'd be grateful if anyone could provide insight into choosing a good
> i386 processor for Python performance.
> 
> Are any of the following of particular importance, or less relevant,
> with respect to Python?
> 
> Raw clock speed?
> Cache size?
> Bus speed?
> Intel's Hyperthreading?
> AMD's 64 bits?

Lots of cache is likely to help.  There were some posts -- somewhere,
python-dev maybe -- which showed terrible parrotbench times on some
Pentium variant with almost no cache.

More of everything else is also good, but you knew that, right?

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  > What are mathematicians' critical job skills? [...]
  The ability to work long and hard on entirely meaningless problems.
                           -- Michael Hudson & Gordon McMillan, c.l.py


From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 12 09:42:59 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:42:59 -0400
Subject: Print command
In-Reply-To: <2o19ojF5ob9jU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <mailman.1511.1092239223.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<WosSc.21396$Jp6.6141@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<2nv6roF54f7iU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<cvmdnbvUcbh--obcRVn-uw@powergate.ca>
	<2o19ojF5ob9jU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <MJ-dnQQiMd957obcRVn-vA@powergate.ca>

Russell Blau wrote:

> "Peter Hansen" <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message
> news:cvmdnbvUcbh--obcRVn-uw at powergate.ca...
> 
>>"Russell Blau" <russblau at hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> > Actually, I don't know the meaning of  ``.
>> > On some languages, it means "evaluate": Is it the same meaning in
>> > Python?
> 
> Ummm, actually, that wasn't me you were quoting; it was the OP who replied
> to my message pointing out that `x` doesn't mean the same as 'x'.

Quite right... my apologies for the bad editing.  It was
'Cpt Picard' who wrote that, not Russell.

-Peter


From zathras at thwackety.com  Wed Aug 18 07:08:01 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:08:01 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
In-Reply-To: <1a517b5.0408170923.48f6d964@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408181151490.14399-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>

On 17 Aug 2004, Bryan Olson wrote:
...
> Have you been badly bitten by an evil co-routine?

You appear to misunderstand what I was saying. I was not saying
co-routines are bad. I was saying that generators are, in my experience,
almost as effective. This isn't attacking anything. It's saying that
generators really aren't as bad as it appears some people make out.

As for network servers, it looks like the network server system based on
using generators to gain most of the benefits of co-routines I briefly
talked about (in one of the lightning talks) at EuroPython has been
blocked for release as open source :-(

Your arguments in favour of co-routines for servers all hold (IME) for
generators as well. There is _slight_ extra obfuscation, but nowhere near
the level of change required for event processing.

NB. The reason I like generators is because they allow me to do
co-routine-type things in python with no addons. The reason I like
greenlets is because it seems to go much, much, much further along
that route _and_ gives a performance boost. Also, I'm not opposed to
co-routines being added to the language *if* it was done in a manner
that doesn't confuse new users, however greenlets appear to mitigate
that requirement.

Best Regards,


Michael.



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sun Aug 29 13:06:36 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 03:06:36 +1000
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <cgsv5i$r9u$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgrecn$dgk$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com> <cgsv5i$r9u$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408291006ce164c4@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 12:10:13 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> For example, in the following function def, the comments specify (what I
> believe is) the author's intention behind each assignment.
> 
>     def circu(diameter):
>        """Info about circu."""        # defines circu.__doc__
>        __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'     # defines circu.__author__
>        __features__ = memoized        # defines circu.__features__
>        pi = 3.14                      # local variable definition
>        return pi * diameter

Not in any Python I know of. I look at that and I think "oo, local variables". 

That you have a different belief doesn't make it right - I remain
_extremely_ unconvinced.

Anthony


From sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au  Tue Aug 31 19:50:42 2004
From: sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au (Sam Holden)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 23:50:42 GMT
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87hdqok9i6.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1rfz68ely9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<876574k7du.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1r3c28ejis.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<zILXc.54863$xi6.26091@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<1rllg0cb3m.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<874qmovxna.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<slrncj8kv2.kp.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<slrncj8mvt.djm.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>
	<slrncj94hr.kp.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
Message-ID: <slrncja3mi.430.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>

On 31 Aug 2004 14:59:07 GMT, Antoon Pardon <apardon at forel.vub.ac.be> wrote:
> Op 2004-08-31, Sam Holden schreef <sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>:
>> On 31 Aug 2004 10:33:07 GMT, Antoon Pardon <apardon at forel.vub.ac.be> wrote:
>>> Op 2004-08-28, Isaac To schreef <iketo2 at netscape.net>:
>>>>>>>>> "Kjetil" == Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no> writes:
>>>>
>>>>    Kjetil> after all, code in _any_ language written by a
>>>>    Kjetil> professional will have strict indentation.  so it's just
>>>>    Kjetil> syntax.
>>>>
>>>> No.  In all other languages, people deal with *two* ways to find which
>>>> statement is associated with an if/while/for/whatever statement and
>>>> which is not: by looking at the indentation, and by looking at the
>>>> braces.  They normally look at the indentation, since it is the
>>>> quicker way.  But when they find something wrong, they look at the
>>>> defining braces, sometimes deeply hidden in long expressions and
>>>> statements combined into one line.  In Python, we have *one and only
>>>> one* way to find which statement is associated with an
>>>> if/while/for/whatever statement, and this is the quicker way that
>>>> people are used to.
>>>
>>> I doubt that.
>>>
>>> I used to limit myself to indentation to see which code belonged
>>> to which control. But then I found myself witch controls that
>>> were so nested it was hard to see to which if a particular
>>> else suite belonged and I started to use end markers in comments
>>> to make the structure more visible.
>>
>> Deep nesting is a bad sign in itself,
>
> Why?

Because it is often hard to read - as you stated by saying you needed
to add end markers to make the structure more visible.

"Nest as deeply as you can." is one of the obfuscation techniques,
recommended in "How To Write Unmaintainable Code"[1] (and it is
refering to languages which use {}s), so there is some evidence
this is an opinion held by more people that just me...

It often goes hand hand in hand with long functions, which 
I also assert are hard to read.

1. http://mindprod.com/unmain.html

>
>> regardless of how a language
>> specifies block structure. Making the code readable by removing
>> the unreadable nesting seems a far better solution than adding
>> end markers.
>
> The nesting reflects the structure of the algorithm. If an algorithm
> is best described by the nesting of a number of control structures
> then i don't see how you are going to remove that nesting.

Functions, classes if the state requirements are such that you would
be passing too many arguments to/collecting too many results from each
function.

Readability counts, and all that...

-- 
Sam Holden



From po-yung.liu at pandora.be  Fri Aug 13 20:11:49 2004
From: po-yung.liu at pandora.be (Vent d'Est - East Wind)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 00:11:49 GMT
Subject: Call PieMan 
In-Reply-To: <slrnchqhoh.ol9.stnchris@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <slrnchq8lg.q3d.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
	<2o4m5pF6apnoU3@uni-berlin.de>
	<slrnchqhoh.ol9.stnchris@xmission.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <9NcTc.213061$HW7.10516540@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

Steve Christensen wrote:
> In article <2o4m5pF6apnoU3 at uni-berlin.de>, Daniel Ellison wrote:
> 
>>Dave Benjamin wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I just want to say, for the record, that if anyone can successfully build a
>>>Python compiler that can produce Flash bytecode, I will personally allow
>>>you to throw *any number of pies* in my face, in as public of a ceremony as
>>>you desire. Furthermore, I will match you 50/50 in the cost of the pies.
>>
>>Wow, that's one heavy challenge! Either Dave thinks it just can't be 
>>done, or he really, /really/ wants this compiler.
> 
> 
> Or, he really likes pie.
> 
> 
> -Steve
In belgium there is the pieman (with his piegroup , and piecommunity ) , 
he was a baker , and so he is bored of baking and become PieMan or the 
Pie Justice man , it s him who have throw Pie In Bill Gates 's face :)
(this was not his first shoot :) , he have a lot of important 
personality in his hall of fame :))


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 10:06:41 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:06:41 +1000
Subject: python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
In-Reply-To: <z_idnSRcLoYq1LbcRVn-jg@giganews.com>
References: <mailman.2274.1093330945.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<z_idnSRcLoYq1LbcRVn-jg@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082407062abf237@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:59:20 -0400, Istvan Albert
<ialbert at mailblocks.com> wrote:
> Brett Cannon wrote:
> 
> > Armin Rigo came up with a way to have string concatenation in a loop
> > (think ``for thing in iter_of_strings: concat_str += thing``) not be a
> > quadratic algorithm
> 
> > But Guido didn't like the patch.
> 
> Sometimes I just don't get it.
> 
> Here is a patch that removes one of the warts of python, does not introduce
> any new behavior, makes python behave as it should have had in the first place,
> yet it gets shot down on the grounds that it is 'too much of an improvement'
> and that other python implementations might not be able to keep up
> with it...

Er. Did you _read_ the rest of the section you quoted?

"""In the end, though, this went in with a warning that the speed
performance is not portable.  It is not to be used in the stdlib ever.""""


From mariube+netnews+ at ifi.uio.no  Fri Aug 27 10:55:26 2004
From: mariube+netnews+ at ifi.uio.no (Marius Bernklev)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:55:26 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<tyf3c28ps1t.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
Message-ID: <3cfpt5ctyu9.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>

Jacek Generowicz <jacek.generowicz at cern.ch> writes:

> Hmm ... not pretty, but at least it doesn't PERLize the language.

True.  @pie decorators fill up three years' worth.


-- 
Marius Bernklev


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 13:17:11 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 10:17:11 -0700
Subject: inverse of izip
References: <d11dcfba.0408182144.14aad4a8@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1934.1092900690.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cg1pct$p58$00$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <d11dcfba.0408190917.14cfd774@posting.google.com>

Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote in message news:<cg1pct$p58$00$1 at news.t-online.com>...
> However, your sample data is badly chosen. Unless I have made a typo
> repeating your demo, you are getting the same (last) sequence twice due to
> late binding of i.
> 
[snip]
> >>> map(list, starzip(it.izip("123", "abc")))
>  [['1', '2', '3'], ['a', 'b', 'c']]
> >>> x, y = starzip(it.izip("123", "abc"))
> >>> list(x)
>  ['a', 'b', 'c']
> >>> list(y)
>  ['a', 'b', 'c']
> >>>

I knew there was something funny about binding in generators, but I
couldn't remember what...  Could you explain why 'map(list, ...)'
works, but 'x, y = ...' doesn't?  I read the PEP, but I'm still not
clear on this point.

Thanks,

Steve


From martindemello at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 13:51:01 2004
From: martindemello at yahoo.com (Martin DeMello)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:51:01 GMT
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <9wKXc.230050$J06.33934@pd7tw2no>

Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no> wrote:
> 
> a colleague uses #fi, #yrt etc. to mark the end of blocks, but I don't
> find this satisfactory since neither Python nor Emacs has any
> knowledge of what the magic comment means.

The minimalist change would be to add support for #fi etc in emacs's
python mode, or perhaps support for #{ and #}

martin


From dieter at handshake.de  Sat Aug  7 09:03:11 2004
From: dieter at handshake.de (Dieter Maurer)
Date: 07 Aug 2004 15:03:11 +0200
Subject: PEP 263 status check
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com> <4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <x7k6wbhzhs.fsf@handshake.de>

"Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> writes on Thu, 05 Aug 2004 23:49:07 +0200:
> ...
> I personally believe it is too early yet to make lack of
> encoding declarations a syntax error. I'd like to
> reconsider the issue with Python 2.5.

I hope, it will never come...

The declaration is necessary for modules that are distributed
all over the world but superfluous for modules only used locally
(with fixed encoding).

Dieter


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Tue Aug 31 18:47:55 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 01 Sep 2004 00:47:55 +0200
Subject: 'for l in sys.stdin' at interactive prompt (WAS: Re:
	sys.stdin.readline())
References: <367a4461.0408311221.30866c09@posting.google.com>
	<HBF.20040831jd9s@bombur.uio.no>
	<mailman.2696.1093987795.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040901hqc9@bombur.uio.no>

Steven Bethard wrote:
>Hallvard B Furuseth <h.b.furuseth <at> usit.uio.no> writes:
>> Or in newer Pythons, simply `for sL in sys.stdin: print sL'.
> 
> This doesn't work for me in the interactive shell:
> (...)

Whoops - you just found a mysterious bug in a program I'm writing.
Thanks:-)

> Note that I don't get output until I hit ^Z (this is, obviously, a Windows 
> box).  I tried starting Python with the -u option too, and I still get this 
> result.  Is there any way to make 'for l in sys.stdin' work the way you 
> suggest it does at an interactive prompt?

Can't see any in the manual, now that I've looked more closely.
Info node "(python-lib)File Objects" says file.next() uses a read-
ahead buffer.  It doesn't say one can disable that.

-- 
Hallvard


From pf_moore at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Aug 27 14:21:44 2004
From: pf_moore at yahoo.co.uk (Paul Moore)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:21:44 +0100
Subject: Sound file manipulation in Python
References: <uu0upzj72.fsf@yahoo.co.uk> <10isu157sfk3c2@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <uk6vk4f2f.fsf@yahoo.co.uk>

"Dmitry Borisov" <jbors at mail.ru> writes:

> You may try to use pymedia: http://pymedia.sourceforge.net

Looks nice. I'll give it a try.

> There is no writing at this point( but you may add it though ),

Not something I need right now.

> also FLAC not supported also.

A pity, but not as important to me as Ogg. How hard is it to add
codecs to pymedia?

Paul.
-- 
The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing
that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot
possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to
get at or repair. -- Douglas Adams


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Thu Aug  5 19:43:20 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 19:43:20 -0400
Subject: PEP 263 status check
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com> <4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <10h5hgvpafm8a64@news.supernews.com>


"Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote in message
news:4112AB53.6010701 at v.loewis.de...
> John Roth wrote:
> > PEP 263 is marked finished in the PEP index, however
> > I haven't seen the specified Phase 2 in the list of changes
> > for 2.4 which is when I expected it.
> >
> > Did phase 2 get cancelled, or is it just not in the
> > changes document?
>
> Neither, nor. Although this hasn't been discussed widely,
> I personally believe it is too early yet to make lack of
> encoding declarations a syntax error. I'd like to
> reconsider the issue with Python 2.5.
>
> OTOH, not many people have commented either way: would you
> be outraged if a script that has given you a warning about
> missing encoding declarations for some time fails with a
> strict SyntaxError in 2.4? Has everybody already corrected
> their scripts?

Well, I don't particularly have that problem because I don't
have a huge number of scripts and for the ones I do it would be
relatively simple to do a scan and update - or just run them
with the unit tests and see if they break!

In fact, I think that a scan and update program in the tools
directory might be a very good idea - just walk through a
Python library, scan and update everything that doesn't
have a declaration.

The issue has popped in and out of my awareness a few
times, what brought it up this time was Hallvard's thread.

My specific question there was how the code handles the
combination of UTF-8 as the encoding and a non-ascii
character in an 8-bit string literal. Is this an error? The
PEP does not say so. If it isn't, what encoding will
it use to translate from unicode back to an 8-bit
encoding?

Another project for people who care about this
subject: tools. Of the half zillion editors, pretty printers
and so forth out there, how many check for the encoding
line and do the right thing with it? Which ones need to
be updated?

John Roth
>
> Regards,
> Martin




From adurdin at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 20:13:03 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:13:03 +1000
Subject: Rita Sue and Bob too
In-Reply-To: <cg3miq$mkf@odak26.prod.google.com>
References: <cg3miq$mkf@odak26.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a04082017136d288284@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 Aug 2004 19:10:34 -0700, Cyrille Lavigne <dontreply at caramail.com> wrote:
> If you dont want them in order you should do:

If you don't want them in order, then the sets module is probably the
clearest way to go:

from sets import Set

names = ["Rita", "Jim", "Bob", "Jane", "Sue", "Jerry"]
searchnames = ["Rita", "Bob", "Sue"]

nameset = Set(names)
searchnameset = Set(searchnames)
if searchnameset.issubset(nameset):
    print "They're all found"
else:
    print "They're not all found"

-- Or you can eschew the temporary variables, and just say use
Set(searchnames).issubset(Set(names)), but this is a little less
clear.


From ian at emit.demon.co.uk  Sun Aug 22 14:03:21 2004
From: ian at emit.demon.co.uk (Ian McConnell)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 19:03:21 +0100
Subject: Parsing C header files with python
References: <873c2gzftf.fsf@emit.demon.co.uk>
	<XwNVc.8118$Jn5.3133@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <87wtzrnj86.fsf@emit.demon.co.uk>

"Paul McGuire" <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> writes:

> "Ian McConnell" <ian at emit.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:873c2gzftf.fsf at emit.demon.co.uk...
>> I've got a header file which lists a whole load of C functions of the form
>>
>>   int func1(float *arr, int len, double arg1);
>>   int func2(float **arr, float *arr2, int len, double arg1, double arg2);
>>
>> It's a numerical library so all functions return an int and accept varying
>> combinations of float pointers, ints and doubles.
>>
>
> If regexp's give you pause, try this pyparsing example.  It makes heavy use
> of setting results names, so that the parsed tokens can be easily retrieved
> from the results as if they were named attributes.
>
> Download pyparsing at http://pyparsing.sourceforge.net.

Thanks. Your example with pyparsing was just what I was looking for. It also
copes very nicely with newlines and spacing in the header file.



From candrade at gmail.com  Wed Aug  4 12:23:16 2004
From: candrade at gmail.com (Carlos Andrade)
Date: 4 Aug 2004 09:23:16 -0700
Subject: Python CGI question/issue
Message-ID: <8697475.0408040823.4cb6fbac@posting.google.com>

I have a working python script that takes in content from a form,
cleans it up, adds html formatting and then places it into my
index.html page on my server.  When I had index.html set up as :
-rw-rw-r--  1 carlos  wheel   3517 Aug  4 09:51 index.html
I could not write back to the file,
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/local/www/cgi-bin/bob.py", line 24, in ?
    file=open("../data/index.html","w")
IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '../data/index.html'
[Wed Aug  4 09:50:47 2004] [error] [client X.X.X.X] Premature end of
script headers: /usr/local/www/cgi-bin/bob.py

and I though well shoot okay I need to make index.html -rw-rw-rw-,
when then made me a little paranoid.  Is there a more simpler way to
make it possible for me to write back to index.html?


From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Sun Aug  8 19:28:37 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 19:28:37 -0400
Subject: Maybe, just maybe @decorator syntax is ok after all
In-Reply-To: <b840abf4.0408080422.44fcf41c@posting.google.com>
References: <du7n017ni6o.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>
	<b840abf4.0408080422.44fcf41c@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <4116b725$1@nntp.zianet.com>

AdSR wrote:
> You know what, I'm starting to feel the same. Yesterday Anthony
> Baxter mentioned this URL:
> 
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047112.html
> 
> where GvR says:
> 
> """ Given that the whole point of adding decorator syntax is to move
> the decorator from the end ("foo = staticmethod(foo)" after a
> 100-line body) to the front, where it is more in-your-face, it should
> IMO be moved all the way to the front. """

I saw this quote, too, but it did not sway me. I've felt ever since the 
C89 days that having too much stuff before the name being defined is an 
impediment to understanding the code:

   So, let's see here. We have a class method. It's memoized, it's
   transacted, and it's ACID. Okay, so far, so good. It's takes two ints,
   and returns an Exception. Okay. It was created on July 17, 2005, at
   3:13:32 in the morning EST, by a guy named Guido. Good to know.

   And it's named 'foo'. Which sucks, because I was looking for 'bar'.

   Where was I again?

Having all this stuff before the *name* of the thing being defined is 
distracting. First tell me what it's *called*, then I'll decide if I 
want to know more or not.

Ever look at Java code? Abominations like "public static final 
synchronized f() {}" litter the code. *shudder* How is one supposed to 
navigate code like this?

> And I had the sudden feeling that I finally got it. You see, for me, 
> the @decorator syntax is a declaration - first thing that came to my 
> mind was Pascal's "forward". So it says "take the def that follows
> and insert a (old style) decoration line in the code after it." Note
> that here the "def" is recursive - it may have other @decorators
> before it.

That is the intent as I understand it. It even sounds reasonable, at 
first blush. But Python is not supposed to need forward declarations. 
And the other way of looking at it (an implicit stack of decorators held 
by the parser, to be applied to the "next X" found) is equally strange.

Also, psychology tells us that people like to pick a starting location, 
and move in one direction from there. We're all familiar with this: this 
is how books are laid out. Having to scan *both* directions to see all 
the pertinent information is like having the chapter title in the middle 
of the chapter.

I'll kick this horse once more: if we were take this prefix idea to it's 
logical conclusion, we'd put the function body before the function name!

     global x
     x *= a
   def f( a)

This ain't Python to me.

People don't do well with prefix or postfix; we want infix or 
sequential. That is why so many people still use "algebraic" calculators 
even when RPN is often faster and requires less button presses. 
Everything else in Python is either infix or sequential, why start 
prefixing stuff now?

> Speaking of loop statements, they have an optional else clause that 
> isn't obvious either. It means "do this if there was no break-exit 
> from the loop." Yet for me the obvious meaning would be "if there
> were no loop passes" - that is, the while condition was false on the
> first entry or the for list was empty. I think the word "finally"
> would be more to the point here (and it's a keyword anyway).

Except that finally blocks *always* get executed; while else blocks get
executed only if the loop completes normally. I agree that it is an odd
word choice, but I assume they were simply trying to reuse a keyword.

> I think having some obscurity in the language is inevitable. The 
> present way of applying decorators (x = decor(x)) is equally cryptic 
> to a newbie as the @decor syntax will be - first you have to know
> what a decorator is. There even aren't any decorators used in the
> standard lib - or at least grep doesn't show any static/classmethod
> rebindings.

Right. The only benefit of decorators is that they get the decoration 
closer to the start of the decorated. Locality matters when trying to 
understand code.

   -- Mark


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Tue Aug 31 17:29:51 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:29:51 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: 'for l in sys.stdin' at interactive prompt (WAS: Re:
	sys.stdin.readline())
References: <367a4461.0408311221.30866c09@posting.google.com>
	<HBF.20040831jd9s@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <loom.20040831T232439-939@post.gmane.org>

Hallvard B Furuseth <h.b.furuseth <at> usit.uio.no> writes:
> Or in newer Pythons, simply `for sL in sys.stdin: print sL'.

This doesn't work for me in the interactive shell:

Python 2.4a2 (#55, Aug  5 2004, 11:42:43) [MSC v.1310 32 bit (Intel)] on win32
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import sys
>>> for l in sys.stdin:
...     print repr(l)
...
A
B
C
D
^Z
'A\n'
'B\n'
'C\n'
'D\n'

Note that I don't get output until I hit ^Z (this is, obviously, a Windows 
box).  I tried starting Python with the -u option too, and I still get this 
result.  Is there any way to make 'for l in sys.stdin' work the way you 
suggest it does at an interactive prompt?

Steve



From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Mon Aug 23 16:11:36 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 22:11:36 +0200
Subject: Why are strings immutable?
References: <chzVc.288437$a24.71659@attbi_s03>
	<ibednRPmoMofVbvcRVn-oA@powergate.ca>
	<O%rWc.171256$8_6.61890@attbi_s04>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040823ubxc@bombur.uio.no>

Brent W. Hughes wrote:

> Let me give two examples of where I think it would be nice to be able to
> change strings in place:

Sure, it would be nice sometimes.
But immutable strings provide many nice advantages too.

> I want to add about 20,000 words to the end of a string, something like
> this:
> 
> Str = [ ]
> for i in range(20000):
>  Word = DoSomeProcessing()
>  Str += Word
> 
> I'd actually like to say Str.extend(Word).

If you are doing a lot of that with the string, does it need to be a
single string?  I've just speeded up a program significantly by changing
  string_var = ...
  string_var += ...
  string_var += ...
  ...
to
  array_var = ['string']
  array_var.append(...)
  array_var.append(...)
  ...
  result = "".join(array_var)
(Well, because of how the data was structured I actually used a dict
which was unpacked to a list comprehension which was joined to a string,
but it still speeded things up.)

You might also speed things up with
  append_string = array_var.append
  append_string(...)
if it is too slow, since that saves a lot of attribute lookups.  But
don't make your code more unreadable like that unless it _is_ too slow.

> I would like to reverse a string containing about 120,000 characters.  I'd
> like to do it in place, but I'm planning to do something like this:
> 
> List = list(Str)
> List.reverse()
> Str = ''.join(List)

import array
a = array.array('c', Str)
a.reverse()
Str = a.tostring()

Still needs two new objects, but at least that's a lot fewer than your
list.

-- 
Hallvard


From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Aug  6 04:08:22 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 10:08:22 +0200
Subject: PEP 263 status check
In-Reply-To: <10h5hgvpafm8a64@news.supernews.com>
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com> <4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de>
	<10h5hgvpafm8a64@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <41133C76.8040302@v.loewis.de>

John Roth wrote:
> In fact, I think that a scan and update program in the tools
> directory might be a very good idea - just walk through a
> Python library, scan and update everything that doesn't
> have a declaration.

Good idea. I see whether I can write something before 2.4,
but contributions are definitely welcome.

> My specific question there was how the code handles the
> combination of UTF-8 as the encoding and a non-ascii
> character in an 8-bit string literal. Is this an error? The
> PEP does not say so. If it isn't, what encoding will
> it use to translate from unicode back to an 8-bit
> encoding?

UTF-8 is not in any way special wrt. the PEP. Notice that
UTF-8 is *not* Unicode - it is an encoding of Unicode, just
like ISO-8559-1 or us-ascii (although the latter two only
encode a subset of Unicode). Yes, the byte string literals
will be converted back to an "8-bit encoding", but the 8-bit
encoding will be UTF-8! IOW, byte string literals are always
converted back to the source encoding before execution.

> Another project for people who care about this
> subject: tools. Of the half zillion editors, pretty printers
> and so forth out there, how many check for the encoding
> line and do the right thing with it? Which ones need to
> be updated?

I know IDLE, Eric, Komodo, and Emacs do support encoding
declarations. I know PythonWin doesn't, although I once
had written patches to add such support. A number of editors
(like notepad.exe) do the right thing only if the document
has the UTF-8 signature.

Of course, editors don't necessarily need to actively
support the feature as long as the declared encoding is
the one they use, anyway. They won't display source in
other encodings correctly, but some of them don't have
the notion of multiple encodings, anyway.

Regards,
Martin


From kboruff at optonline.net  Sat Aug 14 18:50:25 2004
From: kboruff at optonline.net (Keith P. Boruff)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 22:50:25 GMT
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
In-Reply-To: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <RGwTc.37687$js3.13758840@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

beliavsky at aol.com wrote:
> One of the most commmon reasons programmers cite for not trying Python
> is that indentation determines the program flow -- they think its
> weird. I think programmers who actually try Python adapt quickly and
> do not find the indentation rules to be a problem.

Honestly, I'm still not too crazy about the indentation requirements of 
the language myself, coming from a background of using all free form 
languages.

This isn't too big a deal though since I use emacs and the Python mode 
basically does the indentation for me.

In addition, if anyone here has dealt with makefiles, I'm sure they're 
well aware of the requirement to indent (in this case 'tab') certain lines.

Things I like about the language that offset my displeasure of the 
indentation rules are:

1. The mechanics of the language are easy to pick up. No funky '$', '@' 
decorators to deal with. There are the * and ** decorators that you can 
use in function parameter definitions but that's not a big deal.

2. The language is well documented. I had to learn Python on the fly and 
the documentation was excellent in getting me up to speed.

3. Good basic/standard API. Not too big; not too small and again... well 
documented.

4. Nice, tight modularity.

If I have any big problem with python, it's in the semantics of the 
classes. It seems a bit... well... weird in some cases. Two of the 
things I don't like about it is that there's no access specifiers for 
the class components (public, private, protected) like C++ and Ruby, for 
example.

Also, I'm not too thrilled about the 'new class style' that I read about 
in books.. meaning that you should inherit your base class from 
'object'. To me, it seems a bit of a hack.

All in all though, a good language. I was able to construct a script 
generator for one of our test programs at work using Python to access a 
DB and put out flat file representations of the DB data in less than 3 
days without being a 'super Python pro'.

Keith Boruff







From godoy at ieee.org  Fri Aug 27 17:55:33 2004
From: godoy at ieee.org (Jorge Godoy)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:55:33 -0300
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<1LMXc.67190$UTP.37420@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj7a9r.g7ec5a1g89rj0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m3wtzk4562.fsf@g2ctech.com>

aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:

> Dan Perl <dperl at rogers.com> wrote:
>    ...
>> Alright, alright!  And given the fact that it was added only in 2.3, that
>> explains why I couldn't find any mention of the feature in 'Python
>> Cookbook', the 1st ed.  I'm looking forward to seeing it mentioned in the
>> 2nd ed. ;-)
>
> If somebody submits a good recipe about it, I'll be overjoyed to add it
> (not sure what chapter -- 'files'?  'system administration'?  'programs
> about programs'? -- ah well, I'll find a spot!-).
>
> In the 2nd Edition of the _Nutshell_, when THAT comes (don't hold your
> breath!-), I'll write it up just like I will for all the new delights
> since 2.2 -- but for the Cookbook I'm supposed to use recipes that
> people do submit to the online cookbook site... OK, I and my co-editors
> _do_ perform a lot of editing and merging, and occasionally do add a
> recipe or three, but mostly it IS the book you all have written, with
> over a hundred authors covering the subjects THEY think matter...

It would be great to have one example with more than one file.

>From the discussion I got curious and tested it here and -- since
Python's so efficient I wasn't surprised that -- it worked. 



$ cat test.py
def test():
        print "Test from file 1"

$ cat test2.py
def test():
        print "Test from file 2"


>>> import sys
>>> sys.path.append('test.zip')
>>> import test
>>> import test2
>>> test.test()
Test from file 1
>>> test2.test()
Test from file 2
>>>


I also noticed that there was no '.pyc' created for that import, as is
usually done for uncompressed modules.  



Be seeing you,
-- 
Godoy.     <godoy at ieee.org>


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 17 00:35:15 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 00:35:15 -0400
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
In-Reply-To: <7xoela8k17.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
References: <mailman.1661.1092519005.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7x7js1i887.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<slrnchug4m.n0d.npat@gray.efault.net> <zn4w2y3g.fsf@telus.net>
	<slrnci21mq.h3l.npat@gray.efault.net> <isbi95v7.fsf@telus.net>
	<slrnci31lc.1h8.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<7xoela8k17.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <89idnXvf1IiZFrzcRVn-hA@powergate.ca>

Paul Rubin wrote:

> The limitations aren't as bad as they sound.  There are easy
> workarounds most of the time.  I do think using the yield keyword
> to identify generator functions was unfortunate, since it makes
> it harder to get rid of the limitations.

@generator
def func():
     blah blah
     yield blah

??

;-)


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Aug 24 01:45:48 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 01:45:48 -0400
Subject: function taking scalar or list argument
References: <412a2bce$1_1@127.0.0.1>
	<9ZCdnT9EuudK3bfcRVn-tA@comcast.com><10il11q5uqfg4ad@corp.supernews.com>
	<loom.20040824T052140-517@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <cgekmc$ok6$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Steven Bethard" <steven.bethard at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:loom.20040824T052140-517 at post.gmane.org...
> Well, you can always test for the protocol, e.g.:
>
> def twice(x):
>     if hasattr(x, "__iter__"):
>         return map(twice, x)

In 2.2.1:
>>> hasattr([1,2,3], '__iter__')
0
so this does not seem to work as you seem to expect.  hasattr(iter(x),
'__iter__') will.

Terry J. Reedy





From martin at v.loewis.de  Sun Aug 22 05:39:10 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:39:10 +0200
Subject: unicodedata name for \u000a
In-Reply-To: <u8yc7mu4i.fsf@broadpark.no>
References: <mailman.2120.1093116249.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408212145180.1131-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<u8yc7mu4i.fsf@broadpark.no>
Message-ID: <412869bf$0$24814$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

Tor Iver Wilhelmsen wrote:
> 000A LF <control>
> = LINE FEED (LF)
> 
> So the authors of unicodedata.name() could have picked either
> '<control>', the ASCII name 'LF' or the alternative 'LINE FEED (LF)'.

No. <control> is not a character name. The unicodedata.name function
returns the official character name, so it MUST NOT return an alias
(which rules out your second alternative).

> Not picking any of them seems strange, and as the OP pointed out,
> leads to an error even though the "C0 Controls" part of that page *is*
> part of Unicode.

Yes. However, this strangeness originates from the Unicode
specification. Control characters simply do not have a name.

If you want to know whether a code point is an unassigned character,
check whether unicodedata.type is "Cn".

Regards,
Martin


From bulatov at engr.orst.edu  Mon Aug  2 19:32:21 2004
From: bulatov at engr.orst.edu (Yaroslav Bulatov)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 16:32:21 -0700
Subject: Microbenchmark: Summing over array of doubles
References: <4d642979.0407312049.7a8aecab@posting.google.com>
	<Xns95389B9391F5Eduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011840050.21160-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
	<Xns95395FD0EF85duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <4d642979.0408021532.2ca19f2f@posting.google.com>

Duncan Booth <me at privacy.net> wrote in message news:<Xns95395FD0EF85duncanrcpcouk at 127.0.0.1>...
> Christopher T King <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote in
> news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011840050.21160-100000 at ccc4.wpi.edu: 
> 
> > On 1 Aug 2004, Duncan Booth wrote:
> > 
> >> I just had a brief look at the code you posted. Are you not concerned
> >> about accuracy in any of your calculations? Summing a 10 million
> >> element array by simply accumulating each element into a running
> >> total is guaranteed to give a lousy result.
> > 
> > Lousy or not, I believe that's how numarray is implemented internally,
> > so at least all the benchmarks are the same.  If you want accuracy
> > summing that many numbers, you're going to have to do it in software
> > (likely by summing each mantissa bit individually and reconstructing
> > the float afterward), so it will be abysmally slow (obviously not what
> > the OP wants).
> > 
> 
> My point being that speed isn't everything. Most applications doing large 
> floating point calculations should be concerned about accuracy, and how not 
> to add up a large array of floating point numbers was one of the first 
> things I was taught in computer science classes. The fastest way to sum 10 
> million numbers (albeit at some considerable loss of accuracy):
> 
>     	return 0
> 
> 
> The 'correct' way to sum a large array of floats is, of course, to 
> calculate a lot of partial sums and sum them. For example, naively, we 
> might say that to sum the array we sum the first half, sum the second half 
> and add the results together. This definition being recursive ensures that 
> if the inputs are all of a similar size then all the intermediate 
> calculations involve summing similarly sized values. A more sophisticated 
> technique might also try to handle the case where not all values are a 
> similar size.
> 
> If you are worried about speed, then calculating partial sums is also the 
> way to go: the naive technique used by the original poster leaves no scope 
> for parallel calculation. It should be possible to write a slightly more 
> complex loop in the C version that runs a lot faster on systems that are 
> capable of performing multiple floating point instructions in parallel.

You are right, naive summing generates significant accuracy losses.
I estimated the error by summing [0.123456789012345]*1000000 and
comparing it to
1234567.89012345. All methods have error about 1e-4 . 

The method below sums the array at the same speed as regular Python
sum loop, but reports error < 1e-15 .

def sum2(arr):
  size = len(arr)
  for itr in range(int(ceil(log(size)/log(2)))):
    for i in xrange(0, size, 2**(itr+1)):
      next_i = i+2**itr
      if next_i<size:
        arr[i]+=arr[next_i]
  return arr[0]


When arbitrary precision numbers are being used, this method has
performance O(nd) vs. regular summing O(n(d+log d)) where n is size of
array, d is number of digits of the elements. In practice I got about
20% performance increase when summing an array of 1000 Decimals using
method above.

A better estimate of error difference would use random digits as
opposed to [x]*10000000, but I don't know how I would calculate exact
answer in any reasonable amount of time. (using Decimals takes over a
second for 4000 array (with conversion))

Yaroslav


From jgrahn-nntq at algonet.se  Wed Aug  4 15:49:30 2004
From: jgrahn-nntq at algonet.se (Jorgen Grahn)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 19:49:30 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Does python support multi prototype.
References: <2natmnFv86rjU1@uni-berlin.de> <HGXPc.1098$M95.865@pd7tw1no>
	<slrnch1o4j.nv3.jgrahn-nntq@frailea.sa.invalid>
	<TZydnS8D3rdVbY3cRVn-gA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <slrnch2fbj.nv3.jgrahn-nntq@frailea.sa.invalid>

On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 10:20:53 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> Jorgen Grahn wrote:
...
>> I miss overloading in Python from time to time, but I can live without it.
>> It is, after all, closely tied to a type system which is desirable in C++
>> and Java, but not in Python.
> 
> (untested code, may be minor bugs)
...
> 
> If you _really_ miss it from time to time, then it's _really_
> easy to add it so that it's available in a fairly elegant fashion
> when you do need it.

Well, I don't _really_ miss overloading that much. Not enough to try to
squeeze it into Python when I know it's an idiom that doesn't really fit.

Your code was kind of elegant, but kind of misses the point with
overloading, I think.  At least, it's not anything I'd want to do in most
situations where overloading would have been nifty in C++.  IMHO.

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <jgrahn@      ''If All Men Were Brothers,
\X/                algonet.se>    Would You Let One Marry Your Sister?''


From nicksjacobson at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 17 14:30:27 2004
From: nicksjacobson at yahoo.com (Nick Jacobson)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 11:30:27 -0700
Subject: Newbie 1st program
References: <f9d01b73.0408161010.1ba5e9e4@posting.google.com>
	<f8097096.0408170233.5a40706d@posting.google.com>
	<Xns95487B9C7E472duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <f8097096.0408171030.657a6ed8@posting.google.com>

>             ary = ["Restrict your search to a specific site",
> "army.mil", "usmc.mil", "af.mil", "navy.mil", "uscg.mil",
> "SYColeman.com", "l3com.com", "fedbizopps.gov", "defenselink.mil"]
> 
>             i = event.GetInt()
>             if 0 <= i < len(ary):
>                  t2.Clear()
>                  t2.SetValue(ary[i])
>                  t2.SetEditable(i != 0)

You're right, this is an improvement.  Well, my main point was to
eliminate the code redundancy, even if I was a bit clumsy about it. :0

--Nick


From duncan.booth at invalid.invalid  Mon Aug  2 07:52:56 2004
From: duncan.booth at invalid.invalid (Duncan Booth)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 11:52:56 GMT
Subject: Timing Difference: insert vs. append & reverse
References: <35b736b9.0408020330.53b24ed3@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Xns953983065EEC6duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>

johnfkeeling at yahoo.com (John Keeling) wrote in 
news:35b736b9.0408020330.53b24ed3 at posting.google.com:

> I tried the test program below. My interest is to examine timing
> differences between insert vs. append & reverse for a list. My results
> on my XP Python 2.3.4 are as follows:
> time_reverse  0.889999389648
> time_insert  15.7750005722
> Over multiple runs ... the time taken to insert at the head of a list,
> vs. the time taken to append to a list and then reverse it is
> typically 16 or 17 times longer.
> I would have expected the insert operation to be faster than the
> combined append & reverse operations. Is this behaviour surprising, or
> is there a good reason why there is this large performance difference?

A list is implemented by an array of pointers to the objects it contains.

Every time you call 'insert(0, indx)', all of the pointers already in the 
list have to be moved up once position before the new one can be inserted 
at the beginning.

When you call 'append(indx)' the pointers only have to be copied if there 
isn't enough space in the currently allocated block for the new element. If 
there is space then there is no need to copy the existing elements, just 
put the new element on the end and update the length field. Whenever a new 
block does have to be allocated that particular append will be no faster 
than an insert, but some extra space will be allocated just in case you do 
wish to extend the list further.

If you expected insert to be faster, perhaps you thought that Python used a 
linked-list implementation. It doesn't do this, because in practice (for 
most applications) a list based implementation gives better performance.


From bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr  Thu Aug 19 04:36:08 2004
From: bdesth.quelquechose at free.quelquepart.fr (Bruno Desthuilliers)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:36:08 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <41245e57$0$29668$636a15ce@news.free.fr>

Lucas Raab wrote:
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....
> 
> 
Well, I'm 37, but I may be some special case since I started programming 
at 32... (well, I did some bits of scripting before that but nothing 
serious, just a few lines of Hypertalk and VBScript...). So I'm not so 
young, but still a young programmer !-)



From sjdevnull at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 10 18:28:56 2004
From: sjdevnull at yahoo.com (G. S. Hayes)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 15:28:56 -0700
Subject: decorators vs GIL
References: <96c2e938.0408091819.2cd7b50d@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1441.1092142125.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <96c2e938.0408101428.1545fb26@posting.google.com>

mudd at vex.net wrote in message news:<mailman.1441.1092142125.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> state machines and processes [and inter-process
> communication/coordination]?  It sounds like you're saying the alternative
> to threads is "home brewed" threads.

No.  I'm using alternative multiprocessing/event-driven programming
methods that are much less error prone (ie easier to program and
maintain) and easier to get good performance out of than using
threads.  The core difference between threads and processes is that
threads share all their memory while processes have protected memory. 
That difference _should_ be the deciding factor in whether you use
processes or threads in an application, although as I've said
throughout this thread two major platforms (Windows{see * below} and
Java) don't give you the tools to make that possible; thankfully,
Python does on OSes where it's possible.

I'll repeat: On platforms with sane process implementations, the
deciding factor between using threads or using processes should be
whether you want all your memory (including the code) shared or not. 
Because  THAT is the fundamental difference between the two.

99% of the time, throwing out protected memory is the wrong thing to
do; it is extremely error prone, difficult to debug, and while it
often seems easy to design a multithreaded program up front it almost
always winds up being more work than using events and processes where
needed.  In many cases it'll run dramatically slower than a multiple
process implementation as well.

Note that I'm not alone in this belief; since you seem particularly
interested in the GUI side of things, you might consider reading John
Ousterhout's famous paper "Threads Considered Harmful" (he's the
author of Tcl/Tk and knows a thing or two about programming GUI apps).

> Until recently linux implemented threads as processes.

This is not true for any reasonable definition of "recently".  What
has recently changed is how the threads are shown by tools like ps and
top, and the threading library has changed from LinuxThreads to a more
efficient implementation (NPTL) that uses faster mutexes.  But the
core COE implementation hasn't changed in nearly a decade (since 1996
at least):

Linux implements arbitrary "contexts of execution" in a way similar to
Plan 9.  Traditional processes and threads are just two kinds of COE;
COEs can share various attributes.  A traditional thread is akin to a
COE that shares memory, whereas traditional processes don't.  But
other attributes (e.g. signal handlers or even the filesystem
namespace) can be private or shared.  "thread" and "processes" are
only two instances of a much more flexible object.

Various other OSes (e.g. Irix, BSD) do similar things (often using the
name "sproc" or "rfork" instead of "clone).

>  I'm really not concerned with how the threads are implemented in the 
> thread library.  I just don't want a language to prevent me from 
> accessing the thread library.

I agree, though I'd much rather use a language like Python that hides
the thread library than a language like Java that hides the much more
useful process library.

*Windows has an excellent I/O Completion Port mechanism for
event-driven programming that can build very efficient multiplexed I/O
(e.g scalable network servers); Linux's queued realtime signals were
based in part on that mechanism.


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug  6 08:24:47 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 08:24:47 -0400
Subject: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was Decorator syntax)
In-Reply-To: <6LWdnZCpvI7Ico_cRVn-hw@giganews.com>
References: <6LWdnZCpvI7Ico_cRVn-hw@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <VJCdnUtOZ_wN5Y7cRVn-vg@powergate.ca>

Istvan Albert wrote:

> Paul McGuire wrote:
> 
>  > Please reconsider the "def f() [classmethod]:" construct.  
>  >
>  > def f() [ staticmethod,
>  >     synchronized,
>  >     alphabetized,
>  >     supersized,
>  >     returns('d') ]:

Nobody has bothered to post an example with a long argument list,
thus ignoring the possibly valid claim in the PEP that this would
make the decorator list hard to see.  Here goes:

     def someMethod(self, posArgOne, anotherArg,
         fieldX=56,
         x=5, y=7, z=9,
         **kwargs)
         [
         staticmethod,
         synchronized,
         alphabetized,
         supersized,
         returns('d')
         ]:

Okay, pretty much an abomination, but I'm not sure it's any worse than
the alternative with @:

     @staticmethod
     @synchronized
     @alphabetized
     @supersized
     @returns('d')
     def someMethod(self, posArgOne, anotherArg,
         fieldX=56,
         x=5, y=7, z=9,
         **kwargs):

It *is*, however, fairly clear that the list of decorators becomes
harder to see.  Without checking, it's definitely possible that the
decorator list in the first case is actually part of the argument list.

I don't care.  I still prefer it to @, if nothing else because
it's much more intuitive to a Python programmer what order they
will be applied in.

> Voting for the "list-after-def" syntax as shown above:

Apparently the term "voting" is deprecated when related to PEPs
and language design.  ;-)  Instead, we should now be using the term
"expressing their opinion in favour of"...

At least, I hope we are still allowed to express opinions in favour
of things...

-Peter


From da_rosser at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  3 15:20:55 2004
From: da_rosser at yahoo.com (Doug Rosser)
Date: 3 Aug 2004 12:20:55 -0700
Subject: Mucking with the calling scripts namespace (For a good reason,
	honest!)
References: <e08cd05f.0408020727.15ce4356@posting.google.com>
	<rJudnRiTPvRB8JPcRVn-gw@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <e08cd05f.0408031120.4eb60a7b@posting.google.com>

Thank you for your help Larry. Let me see if I've got this straight:

1. Python doesn't provide an obvious way to modify the __main__
namespace. You can peek at values with "global" but you can't treat it
like a dictionary at runtime.

2. If you need to access objects that won't have names until run-time
(but you incidentally -KNOW- their names and want to reference them in
a bit of code), encapsulate them in a container. This effectively
creates a new not-really namespace, as the objects in the container
become attributes.

Well, all-in-all, I'd really still rather have #1, but I can live with
#2.

da rosser
-- We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams --

"Larry Bates" <lbates at swamisoft.com> wrote in message news:<rJudnRiTPvRB8JPcRVn-gw at comcast.com>...
> I would suggest following:
> 
> 1) Change the config file into proper format for
> ConfigParser module.
> 
> [server_001]
> hostname=alpha
> os=posix
> 
> [server_002]
> hostname=beta
> os=win
> 
> [client_001]
> hostname=ichi
> os=posix
> 
> [client_002]
> hostname=ni
> os=posix
> 
> This makes it easy to define up to 999 servers and
> 999 clients (just make the counter longer if you
> require more).
> 
> 2) Create classes to hold information/methods that
> will work on each server/client.
> 
> class server:
>     def __init__(self, server_id, name, os):
>         self.id=server_id
>         self.name=name
>         self.os=os
>         return
> 
>     def dosomething(self):
>         #
>         # Insert code here to do something on this
>         # server.
>         #
>         return
> 
> 3) Create class to hold servers/clients (I'll leave
> the one to handle clients to you).
> 
> class servers:
>     def __init__(self, INI):
>         #
>         # Create an index pointer for next method
>         #
>         self.next_index=0
>         #
>         # Create a list to hold server names
>         #
>         self.names=[]
>         serverlist=[x for x in INI.sections if
> INI.sections.beginswith('server')]
>         serverlist.sort()  # If you want to keep them in order
>         #
>         # Loop over each server entry
>         #
>         for server_id in serverlist:
>             name=INI.get(server_id, 'name')
>             os=INI.get(server_id, 'os')
>             self.append(id, name, os)
> 
>         return
> 
>     def append(self, server_id, name, os):
>         #
>         # Create server instance and append to list of servers
>         #
>         self.names.append(server_id)
>         self.__dict__[name]=server(server_id, name, os)
>         return
> 
>     def __iter__(self):
>         return self
> 
>     def next(self):
>         #
>         # Try to get the next route
>         #
>         try: SERVER=self.names[self.next_index]
>         except:
>             self.next_index=0
>             raise StopIteration
>         #
>         # Increment the index pointer for the next call
>         #
>         self.next_index+=1
>         return SERVER
> 
> In your programt do something like:
> 
> import ConfigParser
> 
> INI=ConfigParser.ConfigParser()
> INI.read(inifilepath)
> 
> SERVERS=servers(INI)
> 
> Now you can access
> 
> SERVERS.server_001.name
> SERVERS.server_001.os
> 
> or call methods via
> 
> SERVERS.server_001.dosomething()
> 
> or you can easily loop over them
> 
> for SERVER in SERVERS:
>     SERVER.dosomething()
> 
> or
> 
> print SERVERS.names
> 
> Code not tested, but I hope it helps.
> 
> Larry Bates
> Syscon, Inc.
> 
> 
> 
> "Doug Rosser" <da_rosser at yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:e08cd05f.0408020727.15ce4356 at posting.google.com...
> > I'm writing a fairly complicated test framework and keeping
> > configuration data inside ini files that are parsed at runtime by the
> > ConfigParser module.
> >
> > For example, there would be a section similar to the following
> >
> > [servers]
> > server1:{'hostname':'alpha','os':'posix'}
> > server2:{'hostname':'beta','os':'win'}
> >
> > [clients]
> > client1:{'hostname':'ichi','os':'posix'}
> > client2:{'hostname':'ni','os':'posix'}
> >
> > As I read the configuration file, I don't actually create instances,
> > but use the data to check "what's out there" to make sure the physical
> > network environment has the bits and pieces required to run a
> > particular test. This is a sort of "go/no-go" resource check.
> >
> > Assuming that everything is correct with the physical network
> > environment, I want my testers to be able to refer to these resources
> > in their python scripts by the names in the ini file, like so:
> >
> > myTest.checkResources() # Read the config file and associate names
> > with real
> >                         # life instances
> >
> > server1.doSomething()   # Note how I have cleverly saved myself from
> > declaring
> >                         # "server1" because the module myTest has
> > inserted
> >                         # it into the right namespace :-)
> >
> > Down to business: How do I write a module that can insert these names
> > into the calling script's namespace at runtime? Is this even possible
> > in Python?
> >
> > da rosser
> > -- We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams --


From richardshea at fastmail.fm  Fri Aug 20 00:35:57 2004
From: richardshea at fastmail.fm (Richard Shea)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 21:35:57 -0700
Subject: pyXLWriter - simple example code ?
Message-ID: <282f826a.0408192035.32687e48@posting.google.com>

Hi - Anyone out there who has a simple example using pyXLWriter
(http://sourceforge.net/projects/pyxlwriter/) they are willing to
share with the group ?

I'm interested in creating a .XLS which has multiple sheets within the
workbook but I'm having real trouble getting started, I can create a
Worksheet but can't figure out how to save it.

thanks

richard shea.


From tzot at sil-tec.gr  Wed Aug 18 11:50:09 2004
From: tzot at sil-tec.gr (Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:50:09 +0300
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <gju6i05h0lq1vgpqie5phhbpbmdmue6gr7@4ax.com>

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:20:31 GMT, rumours say that "Lucas Raab"
<pythongnome at hotmail.com> might have written:

>One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
>Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
>about....
>

I believe the average will be more than 25.  Not many kids program these
days.  I'm 32 btw.
-- 
TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best,
"Tssss!" --Brad Pitt as Achilles in unprecedented Ancient Greek


From cpl.19.ghum at spamgourmet.com  Fri Aug  6 03:16:33 2004
From: cpl.19.ghum at spamgourmet.com (Harald Massa)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 07:16:33 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [py2exe.i18n] English works, German works,
	but not French. What do I miss?
References: <cev7g9$3fm$1@newshispeed.ch>
Message-ID: <Xns953D5E610BA51cpl19ghumspamgourmet@195.20.224.116>

"F. GEIGER" <f.geiger at vol.at> wrote in news:cev7g9$3fm$1 at newshispeed.ch:

> When I start a py2exe-ed application I get the error
> 
> 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xe9' in position 10: ordinal
> not in range(128)


encodings: prepare to spend the night.

First reading: 
http://starship.python.net/crew/theller/moin.cgi/EncodingsAgain

Second: 
your error msg says that you are trying to encode sth. NOT ASCII to 
ASCII...

I guess:
your lokale site has another encoding configured 


import sys
sys.getdefaultencoding()

-- returns sth. like Latin-1

And the py2exed application does not read siteconfig.py, and so in the 
running app sys.getdefaultencoding() would be some thing different.

My approach to this is:

in the beginning of the app I write:

import sys
if hasattr(sys,"setdefaultencoding"):
    sys.setdefaultencoding("latin-1")

so ... when no site-config was run, I manually set my default encoding to 
latin-1

works great (together with what I described within the wiki)

Harald


From russblau at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 11 14:29:29 2004
From: russblau at hotmail.com (Russell Blau)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:29:29 -0400
Subject: Print command
References: <mailman.1511.1092239223.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<WosSc.21396$Jp6.6141@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <2nv6roF54f7iU1@uni-berlin.de>

"CptPicard" <jpmorichon at earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:WosSc.21396$Jp6.6141 at newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> I think that you should try:
>     string.rjust('currentTotal',6)
> instead of:
>     string.rjust(`currentTotal`,6)
>
> You may also do it this this way:
> 'currentTotal'.rjust(6)

No, I think he really did want the "backwards" single quotation marks.  They
*are* different, you know...


-- 
I don't actually read my hotmail account, but you can replace hotmail with
excite if you really want to reach me.




From __peter__ at web.de  Fri Aug 13 13:55:19 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 19:55:19 +0200
Subject: blocking file.readlines() needed
References: <cfiqlr$3a8$1@news2.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>
Message-ID: <cfiva7$ae8$02$1@news.t-online.com>

Uwe Mayer wrote:

> I am looking for a way to make the call to a file objects readline()
> method blocking when there is no more data, until data is appended to the
> file, similar to the way
> 
> $ tail -F <system log file>
> 
> works.
> 
> However, file.readlines() aborts and returns an empty list.
> 
> Any ideas?

The naive way to do it:

while True:
    while True:
        line = f.readline()
        if not line:
            break
        print line,
    time.sleep(1)

Peter



From del at mjclift.freeserve.co.uk  Fri Aug 13 01:09:06 2004
From: del at mjclift.freeserve.co.uk (Calvin79)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 01:09:06 -0400
Subject: while and if
References: <e0197c1847cb38af22dceeb8aaa6e679@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>
	<mailman.1581.1092372820.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <0f046dc3f2575925e1b9e2640c6c40cd@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>

Thankyou Satchit, it works exactly as I wanted!

Calvin




From a.clarke11 at ntlworld.com  Thu Aug 26 15:50:55 2004
From: a.clarke11 at ntlworld.com (Tony Clarke)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 12:50:55 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <mailman.2425.1093529537.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <3353cd1e.0408261150.c0c6fc5@posting.google.com>

Evandro Vale Miquelito <evandro at async.com.br> wrote in message news:<mailman.2425.1093529537.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> I'm 23.
> 
> ******************************
> *   Evandro Vale Miquelito   *
> *    evandro at async.com.br    *
> ******************************
> 
> On 25 Aug 2004, Brian Almond wrote:
> 
> > "Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<jQHUc.1529$2L3.505 at newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> > > One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> > > Python programmer??
> >
<snip>
If this carries on, we'll all be a year older , and have to start again...

Ciao
Tony


From jjl at pobox.com  Thu Aug 12 16:31:24 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 21:31:24 +0100
Subject: Flython?
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <87657op083.fsf@pobox.com>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> writes:
[...]
> In the vein of Jython, I wonder what it would take to build
> a Flython?
[...]

Judging by the current state of Jython (a lot of work put in, but
still at 2.1): A fair amount of dedication.


John


From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Aug 12 06:06:06 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:06:06 +0200
Subject: Help understanding Scheme's syntax, procedures and calls
References: <95f168b0.0408120120.31433dc7@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfffee$9an$05$1@news.t-online.com>

Fran wrote:

> I'm trying to understand a functional language code fragment so I can
> explain its syntax and workings to my non English-speaking background
> neighbour, who is doing her finals.
> 
> What in heaven's name is this code fragment intending? (In English
> prose if possible).
> 
> It looks like a fragment from a language called "scheme"
> 
> (define (this n)
> (if (=n 0)
> 0
> (= n (this (- n 1)))))
> (define (f1 a b)
> (if >b a)
> 0
> (+ b (f1 a (+ b 1)))))
> (define (that n)
> (f1 n1)


[silly disclaimer] I don't know Scheme but I'd suppose the above to be
equivalent to the following python (you seem to have some problems counting
the brackets :-)

def this(n):
    if n == 0:
        return 0
    else:
        return n + this(n-1)

def f1(a, b):
    if b > a:
        return 0
    else:
        return b + f1(a, b+1)

def that(n):
    return f1(n, 1)

# try it out
print this(4)
print 'experimental "proof"'
ALL_POSITIVE_INTEGERS = range(1, 10)
for i in ALL_POSITIVE_INTEGERS:
    print "%s:" % i, this(i), that(i)

Otherwise I'd suggest that you download Scheme and just try it out. Perhaps
they even have a debugger so you can step through the instructions one at a
time...

Peter

PS: More help would certainly lead to disqualification.



From mdkr at 163.com  Thu Aug 26 22:41:34 2004
From: mdkr at 163.com (mdk.R)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 19:41:34 -0700
Subject: i can't run wxPython
Message-ID: <88c4d3f.0408261841.297be57d@posting.google.com>

Hello all:
   i'am installed wxPython 2.5 and Python2.3.4..i try execute script
with wxPython but it show error:
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "E:\py\test.py", line 7, in ?
    import wx
  File "E:\py\wx.py", line 10, in ?
    from wxPython.wx import *
  File "D:\Python23\Lib\site-package
    import _wx
  File "D:\Python23\Lib\site-package
    from _core import *
  File "D:\Python23\Lib\site-package
    import wx._core
ImportError: No module named _core

the test.py file content is :


#----------------------------------------------------------------------
# A very simple wxPython example.  Just a wxFrame, wxPanel,
# wxStaticText, wxButton, and a wxBoxSizer, but it shows the basic
# structure of any wxPython application.
#----------------------------------------------------------------------

import wx


class MyFrame(wx.Frame):
    """
    This is MyFrame.  It just shows a few controls on a wxPanel,
    and has a simple menu.
    """
    def __init__(self, parent, title):
        wx.Frame.__init__(self, parent, -1, title,
                          pos=(150, 150), size=(350, 200))

        # Create the menubar
        menuBar = wx.MenuBar()

        # and a menu 
        menu = wx.Menu()

        # add an item to the menu, using \tKeyName automatically
        # creates an accelerator, the third param is some help text
        # that will show up in the statusbar
        menu.Append(wx.ID_EXIT, "E&xit\tAlt-X", "Exit this simple
sample")

        # bind the menu event to an event handler
        self.Bind(wx.EVT_MENU, self.OnTimeToClose, id=wx.ID_EXIT)

        # and put the menu on the menubar
        menuBar.Append(menu, "&File")
        self.SetMenuBar(menuBar)

        self.CreateStatusBar()
        

        # Now create the Panel to put the other controls on.
        panel = wx.Panel(self)

        # and a few controls
        text = wx.StaticText(panel, -1, "Hello World!")
        text.SetFont(wx.Font(14, wx.SWISS, wx.NORMAL, wx.BOLD))
        text.SetSize(text.GetBestSize())
        btn = wx.Button(panel, -1, "Close")
        funbtn = wx.Button(panel, -1, "Just for fun...")

        # bind the button events to handlers
        self.Bind(wx.EVT_BUTTON, self.OnTimeToClose, btn)
        self.Bind(wx.EVT_BUTTON, self.OnFunButton, funbtn)

        # Use a sizer to layout the controls, stacked vertically and
with
        # a 10 pixel border around each
        sizer = wx.BoxSizer(wx.VERTICAL)
        sizer.Add(text, 0, wx.ALL, 10)
        sizer.Add(btn, 0, wx.ALL, 10)
        sizer.Add(funbtn, 0, wx.ALL, 10)
        panel.SetSizer(sizer)
        panel.Layout()


    def OnTimeToClose(self, evt):
        """Event handler for the button click."""
        print "See ya later!"
        self.Close()

    def OnFunButton(self, evt):
        """Event handler for the button click."""
        print "Having fun yet?"


class MyApp(wx.App):
    def OnInit(self):
        frame = MyFrame(None, "Simple wxPython App")
        frame.Show(True)
        self.SetTopWindow(frame)
        return True
        
app = MyApp(True)
app.MainLoop()

where is error?? help me.Thank very much!!!


From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Aug 27 18:24:12 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (Simon John)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 15:24:12 -0700
Subject: Mysql in Python?
In-Reply-To: <kktcwi05l0qd.1jd0udtzxk58k.dlg@40tude.net>
Message-ID: <cgocac$lp8@odah37.prod.google.com>

I got MySQLdb working with MySQL4, it's pretty similar to the PHP
implementation, although error handling isn't great (nor is
documentation!)

I'm going to look at the ADOdb wrapper, which has the DB-API2
documentation to go with it, and some error handling outside of just
try...except



From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Sun Aug  1 16:08:14 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 01 Aug 2004 22:08:14 +0200
Subject: slowdown with massive memory usage
References: <HBF.20040730sz32@bombur.uio.no>
	<mailman.993.1091236388.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040801c753@bombur.uio.no>

Andrew MacIntyre wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Jul 2004, Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
>> I have a program which starts by reading a lot of data into various
>> dicts.
>>
>> When I moved a function to create one such dict from near the beginning
>> of the program to a later time, that function slowed down by a factor
>> of 8-14:
> (...)
>
> Python 2.2 didn't use PyMalloc by default.  This leaves Python at the
> mercy of the platform malloc()/realloc()/free(), and Python has found
> rough spots with nearly every platform's implementation of these - which
> is why PyMalloc was written.
> 
> While it isn't certain that this is your problem, if you can rebuild your
> Python interpreter to include PyMalloc (--with-pymalloc I think), you can
> find out.

Thanks.  I'll check that when I get time.  Until then, malloc gets the
blame until proven innocent, since profiling and test output turned out
nothing else that was different.  (See my reply to Istvan.)

> Be warned that there were some bugs in PyMalloc that were fixed before
> Python 2.3 was released (when PyMalloc became a default option); as far as
> I recall, these bugfixes were never backported to 2.2x.  So I wouldn't
> recommend running a 2.2.3 PyMalloc enabled interpreter in production
> without seriously testing all your production code.

If PyMalloc helps, I'll push for an upgrade to 2.3.  Thanks again.

-- 
Hallvard


From joshway_without_spam at myway.com  Mon Aug 23 16:39:14 2004
From: joshway_without_spam at myway.com (JCM)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:39:14 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: PEP318: radical notion
References: <Xns954E72EC48C5Earienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>
Message-ID: <cgdklh$qkf$1@fred.mathworks.com>

Arien Malec <arien_malec at yahoo.com.remove> wrote:
> Apologies for feeding the fire, when we are rallying around a consensus, 
> but I've been concerned about the clash between syntax and semantics, and 
> I've finally reached a mini-epiphany:

> The problem with PEP318 is that it is too powerful, and tries to do too 
> much. It is a sledgehammer for attacking three problems:

> 1) Metadata, a la Java and C#
> 2) class & static method defs
> 3) Arbitrary post-definitional transformations of functions.

Agreed.  I think trying to address all of this with decorators is the
wrong way to go.


From chrisks at NOSPAMudel.edu  Fri Aug  6 12:40:18 2004
From: chrisks at NOSPAMudel.edu (Chris S.)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 16:40:18 GMT
Subject: Object Reference?
In-Reply-To: <m3r7qksdyz.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
References: <HQEQc.6327$rM6.4368@trndny03>
	<m3r7qksdyz.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <SvOQc.427$AA1.371@trndny06>

Michael Hudson wrote:

>>Naturally, I could just recursively parse all the data comparing every
>>element to every previously listed object, but is there a less
>>obtrusive method? Python figures out when to delete objects based on
>>the remaining references to an object. Is there a way to access this
>>information to automatically lookup these references? Any help is
>>greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> Well, there's gc.get_referrers() and gc.get_referrents(), but I think
> they are probably overkill (see above).

Thanks, these are exactly what I need. Pickle is just the file format. 
The data are Python constructs, so I shouldn't have to bother with the 
format at all, since I'm simply converting the Pickled file into generic 
Python data. Plus, writing my own Pickle parser would be hugely 
complicated since Pickle is essentially its own small programming language.


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Fri Aug 20 18:29:48 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 22:29:48 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<d22692a3.0408201107.46b5ca52@posting.google.com>
	<657d8oc3.fsf@python.net>
Message-ID: <wXuVc.5377$Jn5.4378@fe1.texas.rr.com>

> >
> > I personally find J2 worse than the current pie
> > syntax. Something that looks odd and does something
> > odd seems the lesser evil vs something that looks
> > normal yet does something odd.
>
Why is decorating a function by wrapping it with some "helping" logic of
some sort perceived to be "odd"?

I would guess that generators and list comps were thought "odd" by some when
they were proposed, too, but we have acclimated ourselves to their concepts,
and embraced them.  I'm sure part of this receptiveness was the fact that
the selected syntax did not include some eye-jarring splat of punctuation.

But '@' will forever look odd, even after we have accustomed ourselves to
the utility of function decoration, with the likes of memoize, etc.

If you truly feel function decoration is an "odd" thing, why is it getting
into the language at all?  Why not instead look ahead to when function
decoration is accepted as part of the rich toolkit of power Python
programming, and marvel at how seamlessly it blends into the syntactic
terrain.  I think the only way this can happen is to incorporate decorators
while maintaining the clean consistency of its syntax forms: source
indentation to indicate hierarchy of logic (or declaration); conventional
punctuation, such as [], :, and (); native data type constructs, such as
lists and dictionaries; powerful class definition tools.

Just because Java uses @ for declaring new function attributes does not sway
me towards accepting it - I don't see us adopting {}'s in place of
indentation, even though C, C++, Perl, and Java all use them.  I see the
absence of '@' in Python to be a *good* thing, and I hope hope hope that it
will stay *out* of the language.

-- Paul




From bryanjugglercryptographer at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  6 17:29:12 2004
From: bryanjugglercryptographer at yahoo.com (Bryan Olson)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 14:29:12 -0700
Subject: How to force a single number to be a tuple
References: <mailman.1138.1091636758.5135.python-list@python.org>	<roy-6EC9F2.12271204082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1142.1091637381.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1a517b5.0408061329.429de7fc@posting.google.com>

Gandalf wrote:
> The syntax is very clear and logical. (As usual when working with 
> python.) Try to add one comma for each element - that will do the stuff.
> Most of the languages are not so straightforward - they forbid the last 
> comma.

The syntax may be logical, but it's not normal comma usage,.

> Python is the best. :-)

Python tuples overlap too much with lists, and differ from the 
functional/relational view in which a tuple is an element of the 
Cartesian product of zero or more domains.  Cartesian product is 
associative; (1, (2, 3)) = ((1, 2), 3) and is canonically 
written: (1, 2, 3).  Any object is identical to the one-tuple of 
that object.  What Python calls 'tuples' are really immutable 
lists.


-- 
--Bryan


From pit.grinja at gmx.de  Mon Aug 30 11:49:23 2004
From: pit.grinja at gmx.de (Piet)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 08:49:23 -0700
Subject: Installation of mod_python 3.1.3 on Apache 2.0.50 on Windows
	Me/Win2k
References: <39cbe663.0408290850.14452ab9@posting.google.com>
	<pBtYc.6594$6o3.4300@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <39cbe663.0408300749.2ef5bc81@posting.google.com>

"Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<pBtYc.6594$6o3.4300 at newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> Why not post this to the mod_python mailing list??
The error looked like an error in some python installation scripts, so
it seemed to me more "pythonic" than "apachic". Anyways, thanks for
the hint.
Piet


From duncan.booth at invalid.invalid  Tue Aug 17 05:27:44 2004
From: duncan.booth at invalid.invalid (Duncan Booth)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 09:27:44 GMT
Subject: News server(NNTP library) and Python
References: <81a41dd.0408162307.3eb1ea36@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Xns95485C206CFEduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>

export at hope.cz (Lad) wrote in 
news:81a41dd.0408162307.3eb1ea36 at posting.google.com:

> I have a program that can send posts to a news server.The problem is
> that I must find a free usenet(news) server that allows posting, which
> is not easy. For this reason I would like to make a modification in my
> program so that the program can act in a similar way how real news
> server, that is to spread the new posts to another news server. But I
> do not have much knowledge about the way how news server chooses
> another news server to send it's new posting.
> Can anybody give me a hint( idea)?

If you are running on Windows and just want a news server for testing, get 
hold of a copy of Hamster (http://tglsoft.de/), this will act as both news 
server and news client and lets you set up your own local newsgroups.

If you meant that you actually want a free news server to post to real 
newsgroups, then sign up with news.individual.net. You have to agree to 
some reasonable terms and conditions, but it is free.

Real news-servers transfer news between each other by having a list of 
servers to which they will forward news they have received, so to run a 
real news server you need a peering agreement with an existing server, and 
you aren't going to get that. What you can do though is to write a program 
which works in the same sort of way as Hamster: i.e. it acts as a client to 
one or more upstream news-servers while also acting as a server. This isn't 
suitable for running a full news feed but works well when you have 
comparatively few newsgroups.


From grante at visi.com  Wed Aug 11 12:09:29 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 16:09:29 GMT
Subject: How to get rid of "hex/oct constants > sys.maxint" warning?
References: <411a3402$0$65564$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408111121070.20086-100000@ccc1.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <411a44b9$0$65602$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-11, Christopher T King <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote:

>> How _do_ I get rid of the warning?  Is there a way to tell
>> Python that the constant isn't an integer, it's just a bit
>> pattern?
>
> The best way is to tell Python to silence the warning:
>
>>>> 0xc0047a80
> FutureWarning
>>>> import warnings
>>>> warnings.simplefilter('ignore',FutureWarning)

Yup, that's what I was looking for.  Now that I know how it's
spelled, Google find's plenty of examples. :)


-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Yow! Am I cleansed
                                  at               yet?!
                               visi.com            


From robin at reportlab.com  Wed Aug 18 12:43:56 2004
From: robin at reportlab.com (Robin Becker)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:43:56 +0100
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
Message-ID: <4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>

Marius Bernklev wrote:

> "Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
>>Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
>>about....
> 
> 
> 24.  (anyone keeping count?)
> 

>
It's raining so I can't go home


Gerrit Muller	47
Lucas Raab	14
OKB	20
Jeremy Jones	31
Ben Last	31
Guyon Moree	21
Tom Brown	31
Will McGugan	30
Christopher T King	19
Skip Montanero	50
Martin Jurczuk	26
Martin Jackson	55
Peter Wilkinson	32
oziko	24
Dave Opstad	50
Adonis	23
Peter Hickman	43
Axel Steiner	22
Larry Bates	49
Robin Becker	57
Thomas Heller	48
Paul McGuire	45
Wes Weston	55
P at draigBrady	30
Ian Sparks	34
Roel Schroeven	29
Christos "TZOTZIOY" Georgiou	32
Garry Herron	52
Ksenia Marasanova	31
Robert Boyd	40
Marius Bernklev	24

Count	31
Average	35.32258065
Stddev	12.43754289


-- 
Robin Becker


From pythongnome at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 30 19:22:41 2004
From: pythongnome at hotmail.com (Lucas Raab)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:22:41 GMT
Subject: console window not disappearing with py2exe
References: <173c23bb.0408301410.49b27fe4@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <5FOYc.8738$6o3.5873@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>

In your original source file, change the .py file extension to .pyw. The
.pyw extension tells the python exectuable to run without showing the
console. Then remove the "windows" stuff in your setup file.

"Matthew K Jensen" <mattjensen at timetospare.net> wrote in message
news:173c23bb.0408301410.49b27fe4 at posting.google.com...
> In another one of my silly apps, I'm using 'windows=' in the setup
> script. I can't get the darn console window do disappear. Since the
> said app is going to be used with people that have less-than-average
> knowledge in computers, it is imperative that this window goes away. I
> tried sys.frozen = "windows_exe" and it doesn't work. I'm not sure
> what to do. Please save me!
>
> -Matt K Jensen




From eric_brunel at despammed.com  Mon Aug 16 03:57:56 2004
From: eric_brunel at despammed.com (Eric Brunel)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:57:56 +0200
Subject: how to change the text in the title bar of the Tkinter windows
References: <8f17f4bc.0408151822.1be2de2e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfpous$kcr$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>

Ali wrote:
> When I open a window using the Tkinter GUI thing the title bar always
> says "Tk". I would like to know how to change this. I would also like
> to know how to cjange it on any other popup windows I may have. Please
> help.

Just use the 'title' method on your windows. See paragraph 45 in 
http://www.pythonware.com/library/tkinter/introduction/index.htm

HTH
-- 
- Eric Brunel <eric (underscore) brunel (at) despammed (dot) com> -
PragmaDev : Real Time Software Development Tools - http://www.pragmadev.com



From r.kleger at chello.nl  Sat Aug 21 06:37:23 2004
From: r.kleger at chello.nl (Rafal Kleger-Rudomin)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:37:23 GMT
Subject: How to clean python interpreter's environment?
In-Reply-To: <2on2lsFcqa7nU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <PPqVc.176$C7.35@amsnews05.chello.com>
	<jL6dnT9_ZqaFo7vcRVn-oQ@powergate.ca>
	<2omtogFck37uU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<kt2dneLcXdVTz7vcRVn-uw@powergate.ca>
	<2on2lsFcqa7nU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <DBFVc.1042$Ew5.646@amsnews03.chello.com>

Reinhold Birkenfeld wrote:
> Peter Hansen wrote:
> 
>>Reinhold Birkenfeld wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Rafal Kleger-Rudomin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I'm looking for a command to reset interpreter's environment i.e. unload 
>>>>>all modules, delete variables etc.
>>>
>>>What about something like this:
>>>
>>>def clear(keep=("__builtins__", "clear")):
>>>    keeps = {}
>>>    for name, value in globals().iteritems():
>>>        if name in keep: keeps[name] = value
>>>    globals().clear()
>>>    for name, value in keeps.iteritems():
>>>        globals()[name] = value
>>
>>Well, that only removes all the references from the
>>globals of the current module.  Is that all that's
>>wanted?
>>
>>Note that threads that are already running will not be
>>removed, nothing in sys.modules will be removed, and
>>there are doubtless a few other things in the interpreter
>>that aren't quite so easy to get at.
> 
> 
> Right. So I agree with you on ^D.

Well, Control-D just exits python, at least on cygwin. That's not what I 
want.

I should have explained the background of my question:
I write some Python app on Windows using PythonWin IDE. It has own 
Python interpreter window, when I run or debug my app, it runs in that 
interpreter environment. But, after the first run, the environment is 
polluted with modules, vars etc.
What I can do at this moment:
- Exit IDE and run again every time I run/debug my app.
- Run my app in external interpreter (but then I cannot debug with IDE)

Another thing:
Because of this 'cleaning problem', I write all my classes in the main 
file. I should put them in a module. But then I have to manually reload 
the module each time I edit it. Moreover, reload() also does not do the 
job perfectly. So a 'clean' command would be handy.

Do you know any developers' guide addressing such work practices, 
practical tricks, project organisation? I have a book 'Python 2.1 
Bible', it is cool but does not go so far.

Best Regards,
Rafal


From John.Marshall at ec.gc.ca  Fri Aug 20 11:43:35 2004
From: John.Marshall at ec.gc.ca (John Marshall)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 15:43:35 +0000
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <cg4tcl$run$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<10ia1a9jm9tkuca@corp.supernews.com>
	<dpWdnT7p6KbzlbjcRVn-jw@powergate.ca>
	<84GdneSa3r-TR7jcRVn-tw@powergate.ca> <cg4tcl$run$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
Message-ID: <1093016615.6397.3.camel@mango.cmc.ec.gc.ca>

J2 J2 C1

Thanks,
John



From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Tue Aug 24 19:47:52 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:47:52 GMT
Subject: PEP318: radical notion
References: <Xns954E72EC48C5Earienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>
	<412a4222$0$293$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<d3247b7a.0408241413.55b34cb2@posting.google.com>
	<412bc7e6$0$4065$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <hekni0l6aj8qj4hiq69gudctc6mh6fgrgh@4ax.com>

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:57:41 +0200, Christophe Cavalaria
<chris.cavalaria at free.fr> wrote:

>Why is it that there are always some people who doesn't understand all the
>possibilities of decorators and so want to minimise their usefulness ?

I can't understand, yet, talking about decorators as if they *are*
something.

We have shortedened some syntax.

Before alpha 2, decorators were not.

Now they ain't.

;)

Art


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 30 10:06:25 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:06:25 +0200
Subject: PHP Documentation
References: <4133124f$0$281$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>
	<wpednS2Tk8udsa7cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <1gjc9sk.e6c0cwnxjvs5N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
   ...
> 2) Many people think that the noise created by lots of user
>     comments would far outweigh the value of the good comments
>     that might be hidden somewhere within.

As long as it's possible to request a view or download of the docs
without the comments, I don't see how this could be a problem -- if you
want to see the docs with comments you can, if not, you're no worse off
than today.  With the kind of threshold-setting and ratings for various
commenters that (e.g.) slashdot uses, you could also set up your
preferences to see _some_ of the comments but not all.

In theory any wiki page could be "defaced" by one nasty minded vandal,
in practice most wikis seem to work decently well -- maybe people react
positively to being trusted.  If comments (and posters thereof,
eventually) can be rated, existing comments edited or removed only by
authorized personnel, etc, etc, I suspect it would work.  No doubt the
needed infrastructure already exists on the widely appreciated PHP doc
pages, it remains to be seen whether we're humble enough to just copy it
wholesale or if the prospect of running PHP code in a key supporting
role for Python is just too embarassing;-).


Alex


From phil at riverbankcomputing.co.uk  Tue Aug  3 18:15:26 2004
From: phil at riverbankcomputing.co.uk (Phil Thompson)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 23:15:26 +0100
Subject: PyQt - clear widget for redraw
In-Reply-To: <410fad7d@news.maxnet.co.nz>
References: <410b4492@news.maxnet.co.nz> <celo8g$bbf$06$1@news.t-online.com>
	<410fad7d@news.maxnet.co.nz>
Message-ID: <200408032315.26204.phil@riverbankcomputing.co.uk>

On Tuesday 03 August 2004 8:19 pm, Peter wrote:
> Diez B. Roggisch wrote:
> > Maybe it helps to put your sleep not in the drawing code, but between the
> > arrival of different data sets to draw, thus limiting the redraws to an
> > amount of lets say 10/s.
>
> Yes - tried that, but gives incomplete draw / flicker.

There are lots of standard graphics techniques for eliminating flicker when 
drawing that you can exploit with PyQt. Double buffering for example - draw 
to a QPixmap and then blit it to the QWidget.

Phil


From omahacountingcrows at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 22 20:18:18 2004
From: omahacountingcrows at yahoo.com (Patrick Smith)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:18:18 -0400
Subject: Having problems installing wxPython
Message-ID: <8JaWc.9419$0c.8772@read1.cgocable.net>

Hi,
I'm in the middle of trying to install wxPython from the wxPythonSrc-2.5.2.7
source.
While running the makefile I get the following errors.


In file included from include/wx/gsocket.h:172,
                 from include/wx/sckaddr.h:24,
                 from include/wx/socket.h:28,
                 from include/wx/protocol/protocol.h:28,
                 from include/wx/url.h:24,
                 from src/common/fs_inet.cpp:30:
include/wx/msw/gsockmsw.h:81: error: 'SOCKET' is used as a type, but is not
   defined as a type.
include/wx/msw/gsockmsw.h:92: error: field `m_timeout' has incomplete type
make: *** [netdll_fs_inet.o] Error 1



Anyone know how I can fix this and finish install wxPython.
thanks.




From timr at probo.com  Mon Aug 16 01:05:01 2004
From: timr at probo.com (Tim Roberts)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:05:01 -0700
Subject: A email.cgi script
References: <cfni2i$j0f$1@news.hgc.com.hk>
Message-ID: <c2g0i0l3hv9li5utk8cuturhfmeq1ldbvf@4ax.com>

wonder <a at b.com> wrote:
>
>I would like to write a python script that can be used in my website for 
>  other people whoever browse my webside to send an email using my smtp 
>server. Is there any sample python script can do that?

It looks lik you have one here.

>Here is my python script, but it does not display To and From editbox in 
>the webpage for user type in their addresses:

Well, then, add <input type=text name=to size=80> and <input type=text
name=from size=80> to your web page and fetch them here.  The rest of this
looks fine.
-- 
- Tim Roberts, timr at probo.com
  Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.


From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Wed Aug  4 22:27:18 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 22:27:18 -0400
Subject: Decorator syntax (was Re: PEP 318 - PyFIT comments)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1168.1091667628.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1162.1091660561.5135.python-list@python.org>	<slrnch2rs1.6ei.ressler@cheetah.jpl.nasa.gov>	<1646998998.20040804190026@MailBlocks.com>
	<mailman.1168.1091667628.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <lN6dnZpvi_ErB4zcRVn-rg@giganews.com>

Bruce Eckel wrote:

> This is very similar to attributes/metadata in Java J2SE 5 and in C#.
> The thing is, metadata is a little bit weird; it's intentionally
> outside of the domain of the 'normal' programming language, because it
> expresses things that you can't or shouldn't within the normal
> programming language. So you _do_ need an escape mechanism. 

But the escape mechanism does not have to take the shape of
funny, loaded symbols.

Are these really necessary? Aren't they a just premature
solution (shortcuts) to a problem that may not even exist?
I am most irritated by the requirement of spreading out a function
definition over two lines.

> also takes a little bit of getting used to; it's orthogonal to what
> you normally think of as a language feature. But the potential for
> metadata features, at least in Java, is very powerful.

I always felt that Java was too rigid and that any kind
of loosening feels like a breath of fresh air. That is much less the
case in Python. If anything people sometimes want a little
more "discipline". This is what this PEP was initially about.
Too bad that instead of quickly settling at something really
simple like:

def static foo():
    ...

the urge to solve all future problems in the most generic manner
possible lead to increasingly hairy syntaxes and made
the decision process so prolonged, fruitless and boring
that GvR just got fed up with everybody.

Istvan.



From franbarlow at mail.com  Sat Aug 14 11:32:10 2004
From: franbarlow at mail.com (Fran)
Date: 14 Aug 2004 08:32:10 -0700
Subject: Help understanding Scheme's syntax, procedures and calls
References: <95f168b0.0408120120.31433dc7@posting.google.com>
	<cffit6$shd$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>
	<95f168b0.0408121215.f89c842@posting.google.com>
	<411cba6f$0$9687$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk>
Message-ID: <95f168b0.0408140732.6a817c0a@posting.google.com>

Peter Hickman <peter at semantico.com> wrote in message news:<411cba6f$0$9687$afc38c87 at news.easynet.co.uk>...
> > Thanks for the help. It's not homework but from an old exam paper, but
> > the girl's English isn't absolutely fluent and I'm looking for a
> > simple way to explain the expressions and functions.
> 
> If there are points to be won for brevity then the answer is 'two functions (one 
> with a helper) to compute factorials'


Thanks greatly ...

Admirably concise.

FRAN


From bhk at dsl.co.uk  Mon Aug 30 18:27:45 2004
From: bhk at dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly})
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:27:45 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.29.03.59.02.719953@bar.net>
	<25u2j0d9bfulqljo6d2jbls2v52l1jk3sd@4ax.com>
	<pan.2004.08.30.00.02.19.911327@bar.net>
Message-ID: <20040830.2227.57577snz@dsl.co.uk>

On Sunday, in article
     <pan.2004.08.30.00.02.19.911327 at bar.net> foo at bar.net "Mac"
     wrote:

> Hmm. No explicit comparison was made, but since the post is a cautionary
> tale (well, the post is a rambling mess, but I think it is trying to be a
> cautionary tale) I think the comparison is understood.

"Cautionary tale"????  Cautionary tale, my arse.

The post was the fuckwitted ramblings of a total raving looney; kill the
thread (and the original poster) and forget about it.

-- 
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}                                     bhk at dsl.co.uk
   "I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi-
   national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet
   software and decent hardware support."


From yav_a at hotmail.com  Tue Aug  3 09:44:13 2004
From: yav_a at hotmail.com (yawar)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 09:44:13 -0400
Subject: Solved: pyUNO Converter
References: <pan.2003.11.27.16.41.02.989568@thomas-guettler.de>
Message-ID: <1019b52d614f1552fe74db1d83559581@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>

One could create the properties list in one go:

properties = [PropertyValue() for i in range(3)]

And then fill it in:

properties[0].Name = ...
properties[0].Value = ...


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 30 15:56:08 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 15:56:08 -0400
Subject: how to get size of email attachment
In-Reply-To: <63b5e209.0408301105.58b9207a@posting.google.com>
References: <63b5e209.0408301105.58b9207a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <GY-dndm__OXHG67cRVn-hw@powergate.ca>

Joh wrote:

> i'm looking for a way to get total size of an email (with its attached
> files) using library such as poplib, or ?
> 
> can someone help me or give me an url from where to start ?

Looking in the docs for poplib, I found this: 
http://docs.python.org/lib/pop3-objects.html

It describes how using .list() should provide you with results in
the form (response, ['mesg_num octets', ...]).  The word "octets"
here refers to the number of bytes, essentially, in each message.

-Peter


From beliavsky at 127.0.0.1  Tue Aug  3 18:51:03 2004
From: beliavsky at 127.0.0.1 (beliavsky@aol.com)
Date: 3 Aug 2004 17:51:03 -0500
Subject: Modern dead-tree Python resources
References: <mailman.1101.1091568194.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <411016d7_1@127.0.0.1>


Michael Ekstrand <python at elehack.net> wrote:

>Is there a good book that covers Python at least through 2.2 (including

>new-style classes, etc.)? I'm particularly looking for something with 
>large appendices of reference material. (alternatively, if someone's 
>publishing print versions of the Python documentation, that would 
>possibly be of interest. 

A good reference for Python 2.2 is "Python in a Nutshell", by Alex Martell.
Also good, and more pedagogical, is "Learning Python", 2nd. edition, by Lutz
and Ascher. O'Reilly published both books.



----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---


From aranders at insightbb.com  Sat Aug  7 01:41:04 2004
From: aranders at insightbb.com (Alan Anderson)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 22:41:04 -0700
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>	<opsb9g3hjudgjose@mail.yahoo.it>
	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2-SdnZCwNs1SwI_cRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <53449fcb.0408062141.6e90681e@posting.google.com>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> Yes, of course after using them for a while they will become more 
> readable, but there are people who have learned to speak Klingon as
> well -- and that doesn't change the fact that Klingon is deliberately
> very difficult to learn and awkward.

Pardon me for jumping in, but I happen to be attending a conference on
the Klingon language at the moment and I wanted to correct a
misunderstanding.  Yes, Klingon is deliberately "alien", being
intentionally created to be unlike many natural languages in many
ways. But it's actually rather easy to learn, and it's only "awkward"
in a couple of minor ways (embedding comparatives in larger sentences,
for example) -- *every* language has its awkward spots.

Were Klingon a natural language, its regularity would be exceptional.

This is just an anectodal data point that might let you know that what
is difficult and awkward from your point of view could very well be
simple and straightforward for others who don't share your
preconceptions.

--
  Alan Anderson, professional programmer and amateur Klingonist
    proud member of the Klingon Language Institute since 1995
qo'mey poSmoH Hol -- language opens worlds -- http://www.kli.org/


From webmaster at smallco.com  Wed Aug 18 21:57:46 2004
From: webmaster at smallco.com (Webmaster)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 21:57:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Automatic response to your mail (Error)
Message-ID: <200408190157.VAA15442@monty.bcentralhost.com>

The automatic reply to this e-mail which you should have
received in response to your e-mail to webmaster at smallco.com has not been defined.

Please contact postmaster at smallco.com for assistance.


From amk at amk.ca  Sat Aug  7 22:19:43 2004
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 21:19:43 -0500
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu> <cf3b56$gt6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>
	<cf3cvt$d3i$1@namru.matavnet.hu>
	<rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>
	<cf3o7b$dd6$1@namru.matavnet.hu>
Message-ID: <8YudnZUJ4NciEIjcRVn-jA@speakeasy.net>

On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 01:21:31 +0200, 
	Mikl?s <nospam at nowhere.hu> wrote:
> So do you say "them and us", Python developers vs. users?
> I've always had the "we all"-feeling. Maybe that's over.

That's always been the case, between people who contribute (in time, money,
skills) and people who don't, for whatever reason.  The saving grace is that
it's very easy to become a developer; just write some code, help with
development, and all of a sudden you're a developer.

--amk


From noone at here.com  Wed Aug 25 09:52:20 2004
From: noone at here.com (M. Clift)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:52:20 +0100
Subject: Just a quick one
References: <cgi2qq$rvp$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <cgi3ev$g6k$1@online.de>
Message-ID: <cgi5gl$5de$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>

Hi Benjamin,

Thanks, that was quick!

How would I print just 'Bob' if the result was
'[('Bob',One'),('Mary','Spam')] ? As print Name_List[0] obviously gives
('Bob','One')

M




From zathras at thwackety.com  Tue Aug  3 06:30:48 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 11:30:48 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Starkiller?
In-Reply-To: <FyDPc.375637$Gx4.227384@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408031127230.910-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Bill Dandreta wrote:

> Neuruss wrote:
> > Does anyone have news about Starkiller?
>
> Here's the Starkiller website:
>
> http://web.mit.edu/msalib/www/urop/
>
> It says hopefully it will be released by October.

That page is 3 years old though:

   HTTP/1.1 200 OK
   Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 09:29:09 GMT
   Server: MIT Web Server Apache/1.3.26 Mark/1.4 (Unix) mod_ssl/2.8.9
   OpenSSL/0.9.6g
==>Last-Modified: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 01:18:19 GMT
   ETag: "31ae0ce6-f60-3b81b6db"
   Accept-Ranges: bytes
   Content-Length: 3936
   Connection: close
   Content-Type: text/html

Mind you, given the comments he made in June and others people have made
in this thread, it's entirely possible he was just prescient 3 years ago
about which October :) We're probably just all an insecticide dump :)


Michael
(Also patiently waiting to play with it :)



From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Tue Aug 10 11:07:12 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 08:07:12 -0700
Subject: flicker in wxBufferedPaintDC
References: <cfaj0e$b4f$1@news2.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>
Message-ID: <1092150853.281913@news.commspeed.net>


"Markus von Ehr" <vonehr at ipm.fhg.de> wrote in message
news:cfaj0e$b4f$1 at news2.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de...
> Hi,
>
> I actualize a buffer in an event handler routine:
>
> if BUFFERED:
>          # If doing buffered drawing, create the buffered DC, giving it
>          # it a real DC to blit to when done.
>          cdc = wxClientDC(self)
>          dc = wxBufferedDC(cdc, self.buffer)
>
>          dc.BeginDrawing()
>          if self.image:
>              dc.DrawBitmap(self.image.ConvertToBitmap(), 0,0)
>          dc.EndDrawing()
>
> and paint the buffer in the OnPaint method.
>
>       def OnPaint(self, event):
>          if BUFFERED:
>              # Create a buffered paint DC.  It will create the real
>              # wxPaintDC and then blit the bitmap to it when dc is
>              # deleted.  Since we don't need to draw anything else
>              # here that's all there is to it.
>              dc = wxBufferedPaintDC(self, self.buffer)
>          else:
>              dc = wxPaintDC(self)
>              # since we're not buffering in this case, we have to
>              # paint the whole window, potentially very time consuming.
>              self.DoDrawing(dc)
>
>
> but the window is flickering. The window displays the liveimage of a
> connected camera.
> How could I get rid of the flickering?
>
> Thanks for any hints,
>
> Markus


You could try using a self.PrepareDC(dc),
or perhaps a wx.SafeYeild(),
or perhaps you need the wx.NO_FULL_REPAINT_ON_RESIZE flag set,
or perhaps you just need to speed up execution , try
http://psyco.sourceforge.net/.

hope this helps.
Tom




From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Tue Aug  3 15:52:34 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 15:52:34 -0400
Subject: Mucking with the calling scripts namespace (For a good reason, 
 honest!)
In-Reply-To: <e08cd05f.0408031120.4eb60a7b@posting.google.com>
References: <e08cd05f.0408020727.15ce4356@posting.google.com>
	<rJudnRiTPvRB8JPcRVn-gw@comcast.com>
	<e08cd05f.0408031120.4eb60a7b@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408031540350.10945-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On 3 Aug 2004, Doug Rosser wrote:

> 1. Python doesn't provide an obvious way to modify the __main__
> namespace. You can peek at values with "global" but you can't treat it
> like a dictionary at runtime.

The globals() function returns just the dictionary you're looking for.
Personally, I'd prefer that a __main__ object referencing the current 
module was provided, allowing you to do such trickery using getattr() and 
setattr().  Something as simple as the following would suffice:

 class objifier(object):
      def __init__(self,d):
          self.__dict__ = d

 __main__ = objifier(globals())

Then you do stuff like:

>>> __main__.b = 6
>>> b
6
>>> b = 20
>>> __main__.b
20
>>> getattr(__main__,"b")
20
>>> setattr(__main__,"b",6)
>>> b
6



From export at hope.cz  Thu Aug 19 04:23:25 2004
From: export at hope.cz (Lad)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 01:23:25 -0700
Subject: Py2Exe PROBLEM
Message-ID: <81a41dd.0408190023.44d34c44@posting.google.com>

I try to make an exe file from my script with help of Py2exe but I am
not successfull.
I have my script
start.py that has only one command

###############
import rgs.py
##############

(rgs.py is the real program.)

I use the following setup script:
#################################
from distutils.core import setup
import py2exe

setup(
    # The first three parameters are not required, if at least a
    # 'version' is given, then a versioninfo resource is built from
    # them and added to the executables.
    version = "0.5.0",
    description = "py2exe sample script",
    name = "py2exe samples",

    # targets to build
    windows = ["start.py"],
    console=["start.py"]
    )
###########################
When compilation finishes I get:

The following modules appear to be missing
['blackbox', 'timing', 'rgs.py']

Can you please help me how to solve the problem?
Thank you 
LAd


From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Tue Aug 24 13:17:29 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:17:29 -0700
Subject: fun with unicode files
References: <6579x7eo.fsf@python.net>
Message-ID: <it9sv1-tj9.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

Thomas Heller wrote:
> I wonder: do I really have to check for the BOM manually, or is there a
> Python function which does that?

It should be part of the standard library IMHO.

Here is my own more complete implementation:

http://www.bitpim.org/pyxr/c/projects/bitpim/common.py.html#0286

Roger 




From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 09:05:00 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 23:05:00 +1000
Subject: allowing braces around suites
In-Reply-To: <1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408270605d02f493@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:55:26 +0200, Kjetil Torgrim Homme
> thank you for the reference!  I'm happy to see that Guido wasn't
> strictly opposed to such a feature 10 years ago.

Regardless of what he thought back then, I think I can say with
absolutely no fear of contradiction that there is no chance in hell of
braces appearing in Python... ever.

If your tool gets something wrong, fix the tool, don't try and change
the language, just for the convenience of a broken tool.


From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Aug 26 12:09:48 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (Simon John)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 09:09:48 -0700
Subject: building errors with py2exe
Message-ID: <cgl20c$eho@odbk17.prod.google.com>

Maybe 'main.py" is not a good name for a module, as the "main" method
would be confused with the "main" module?
Otherwise, yeah we need more code to look at.



From yangzhangbuffalo at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 17 14:37:49 2004
From: yangzhangbuffalo at hotmail.com (Yang Zhang)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:37:49 -0500
Subject: is it possible to create an object by its name in the run time
References: <PPidncd3ycQ1mbzcRVn-gg@comcast.com><cfrlid$1f8c$1@agate.berkeley.edu><BAY24-DAV135EFk2H3b0001e495@hotmail.com>
	<003d01c48407$45aeaf10$6400a8c0@offer>
Message-ID: <BAY24-DAV10znXgffHr00023a22@hotmail.com>

 Hi all,
        I wonder if it is possible to create an object of func, class or
 method in the run time by it's name? To make it more clear, let me show
 you an example: I parsed the python code and found a function with name
'len'.
 I want to know if it is a build-in func(where can I look up?). If so,
ignore
 it otherwise I want to find out which module is it defined in. All I know
 is the name (which is a string), and all the modules that this program have
 imported. In the same way, I also need to process the class and methods
 call. I wonder if it is possible? I will appreciate your help very much!!

-Ryan


From jjl at pobox.com  Thu Aug 19 14:55:59 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 19:55:59 +0100
Subject: Merging pdf documents with Python
References: <mailman.1968.1092928566.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87hdqzt0sg.fsf@pobox.com>

<brianc at temple.edu> writes:
[...]
> >From: "Daryl Middleton" <dmidd at chartermi.net>  
[...]
> >Can python be used to merge pdf documents into a single pdf
> file so that I
[...]
> http://www.reportlab.org/
[...]

www.reportlab.org is ReportLab's open source site.

The part of ReportLab's software that lets you concatenate, and
otherwise process, pre-existing PDF files (rather than making new PDF
files) is called PageCatcher.  PageCatcher is not open source
software.


John


From me at privacy.net  Sun Aug  8 09:21:53 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Dan Sommers)
Date: 08 Aug 2004 09:21:53 -0400
Subject: Encryption between Python & PHP
References: <mailman.1357.1091970037.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m2smaxlq8e.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>

On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 14:00:32 +0100,
Geoff Caplan <geoff at variosoft.com> wrote:

> I have little crypto knowledge, and at first I though that something
> like blowfish was a standard and different libraries should be
> compatible. Now I suspect that internal implementation varies between
> libraries and you have to encrypt/decrypt with the same library. Can
> anyone enlighten me?

I can't help much with your other questions, but I do know about this
one.  By definition, blowfish is blowfish is blowfish.  Any (properly
implemented) blowfish library will be compatible with another; if you
encode something with one library, you will be able to decode it with
the other.  It is up to you to use the same key and to make sense of the
information once you decrypt it.

That said, yes, it is possible that the internal implementation details
may vary slightly between libraries, but not in ways that the user will
notice.  Think of this like calculators:  although calculators use
different hardware and different display devices, they all (should) give
the same answer to the same multiplication problem (keeping the
multiplications in question simple enough so as not to cause some sort
of underflow or overflow error or loss of precision; thankfully,
blowfish implementations do not suffer even this limitation).

HTH,
Dan

-- 
Dan Sommers
<http://www.tombstonezero.net/dan/>
Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.


From grante at visi.com  Thu Aug 26 12:08:56 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 16:08:56 GMT
Subject: Best processor (i386) for Python performance?
References: <cgjsk2$le4@odah37.prod.google.com>
	<412dfb17$0$65599$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<mailman.2443.1093535390.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <412e0b18$0$65566$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-26, Dave Brueck <dave at pythonapocrypha.com> wrote:

>>>In terms of multithreading, an I/O intensive app that is
>>>threaded can make use of dual procs.  Otherwise threaded apps
>>>can't for technical reasons (GIL and such but don't need to get
>>>into those details).
>> 
>> That's rather dissappointing.  If I write a multi-threaded app
>> in C it can utilize multiple processors, but the same app in
>> Python can't?
>
> Depends on what the multithreaded app _does_. If multiple
> processors are present then Python will use them, but how well
> they get used depends on how much and for what reasons the GIL
> gets released.
>
> I/O is the most common reason, so adding another processor to
> an I/O bound program can give you a good performance boost (in
> our lab I've seen easily 75% improvement over a single proc
> box for a program that was very I/O bound, but I haven't
> measured it to see if it's closer to 75% or to 100%
> improvement).

Now that I think about it, in my multi-threaded apps all the
threads almost always end up blocking on I/O.  A couple years
back I even added a GIL release to some of the termios() calls
so that I could get more parallelism when threads are waiting
for serial ports to drain or flush.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  I wonder if there's
                                  at               anything GOOD on tonight?
                               visi.com            


From brian at rk-speed-rugby.dk  Fri Aug 20 03:15:08 2004
From: brian at rk-speed-rugby.dk (Brian Elmegaard)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 09:15:08 +0200
Subject: Merging pdf documents with Python
References: <mailman.1965.1092927979.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <usmais2kj.fsf@rk-speed-rugby.dk>

"Daryl Middleton" <dmidd at chartermi.net> writes:

> Can python be used to merge pdf documents into a single pdf file so that I
> do not have to manually insert each one. Thanks

pdflatex with pdfpages is your friend. Of course you can make a
python script that runs it. 


-- 
Brian (remove the sport for mail)
http://www.et.dtu.dk/staff/be


From mwh at python.net  Wed Aug 25 07:01:53 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:01:53 GMT
Subject: Readline module
References: <mailman.2331.1093405781.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m3y8k3h466.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Jonathan Daugherty <cygnus at cprogrammer.org> writes:

> Hello all,
> 
> I've read some posts here talking about the fact that the 'readline'
> module packaged with python is only good for augmenting the behavior
> of the interactive interpreter.

Um, this seems a stretch.

> Can anyone recommend a readline-style alternative for building an
> app with an interactive prompt (on Linux, python 2.3)?

My pyrepl library is designed for exactly that:

    http://codespeak.net/pyrepl

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
31. Simplicity does not precede complexity, but follows it.
  -- Alan Perlis, http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/perlis-alan/quotes.html


From mandrzejewski at besancon.parkeon.com  Wed Aug  4 09:29:00 2004
From: mandrzejewski at besancon.parkeon.com (Mike Andrzejewski)
Date: 04 Aug 2004 15:29:00 +0200
Subject: EOL - scanning single-quoted string
In-Reply-To: <1091625659.4110e2bb6db73@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
References: <1091625659.4110e2bb6db73@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <1091626140.4281.110.camel@dhcp79-50.besancon.parkeon.com>

Here, you should double the '\' character, but it also raise an error:
"bogus escape (end of line)"
You can try:
    re.subn('/', '\\\\', str)
The result string will be "\\My Documents\\test", and '\' will be usable
for next call.

Le mer 04/08/2004 ? 15:20, Ajay a ?crit :

> hi!
> 
> I am developing an application for a pocket pc.
> i have a small gui which allows users to select files using a file dialog
> box. however the file, selected is represented as '/My Documents/test'
> which when i try to open gives me an error.
> so what i would like to do is replace '/' by the windows '\'
> however when i try
> str='/My Documents/test'
> re.subn('/', '\', str)
> 
> i get an error saying - SyntaxError: EOL while scanning single-quoted
> string
> 
> how can i replace the slashes.
> 
> thanks
> 
> cheers
> 
> --
> Ajay Brar,
> CS Honours 2004
> Smart Internet Technology Research Group
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
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From peufeu at free.fr  Sun Aug  1 07:31:12 2004
From: peufeu at free.fr (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Pierre-Fr=E9d=E9ric_Caillaud?=)
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 13:31:12 +0200
Subject: Get SystemDrive variable
References: <_xtOc.26574$BU4.1267510@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <opsb1wyapu1v4ijd@musicbox>


	Not only that, but different versions of Windows have it in a different  
place. Sometimes it's in c:\windows\mydocuments or something. You better  
get the folder path for Documents and Settings from the registry rather  
than starting from C:

On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:10:50 -0400, JY Doyon <jdoy23 at hotmail.com> wrote:

> I'm writing a script that copies all information from the "Documents and
> Settings" folder for backup purposes. My problem is that some machines  
> have
> the OS installed on a different drive than C:\. Is there any way to get  
> the
> environment variable "SystemDrive" with python?
>
> Thanks for the help
>
>



From joe at invalid.address  Thu Aug 26 15:10:54 2004
From: joe at invalid.address (joe at invalid.address)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 19:10:54 GMT
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <m3brgxvhoj.fsf@invalid.address>

xah at xahlee.org (Xah Lee) writes:

> Larry Wall and Cults
> (Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
> 200012

[ Poor standup comedy deleted ]

> These brain-washing phenomenon, are not limited to fanatical
> life-and-death or otherwise dire beliefs. You see it work in all
> manners of human thought in the general sense. From culture formation
> to fashion to commercialism.  Surely you have heard of Adolf Hitler

Godwin! In the first post of the thread too...

Joe
-- 
If you don't think too good, don't think too much
  - Ted Williams


From xavier_combelle at yahoo.fr  Fri Aug 13 13:39:46 2004
From: xavier_combelle at yahoo.fr (Xavier Combelle)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 19:39:46 +0200
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
In-Reply-To: <Uf6dnb0hhtx1ToHcRVn-vg@powergate.ca>
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<Uf6dnb0hhtx1ToHcRVn-vg@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <411cfc0c$0$29658$636a15ce@news.free.fr>

>> I'm not saying that Python's use of indentation is bad, just that it
>> stops many programmers from trying it.
> 
> 
> I really question whether we are looking for such programmers.
> They sound rather close minded and perhaps even lazy...

Laziness is maybe not a reason to not use Python. I choose
python because I am lazy: the absence of useless braquets is the best 
gift python gived to me. As a C programmer, I am dreaming of a tool
that allow me to use the indentation syntax to write C programms.
I would feel my self so much efficient.



From paolo_veronelli at yahoo.it  Thu Aug 12 12:31:57 2004
From: paolo_veronelli at yahoo.it (paolo veronelli)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 18:31:57 +0200
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
In-Reply-To: <PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <opscmn7jrodgjose@mail.yahoo.it>

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:40:32 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:

> John Marshall wrote:
>> How about the following, which I am almost positive
>> has not been suggested:
>> -----
>> class Klass:
>>     def __init__(self, name):
>>         self.name = name
>>
>>     deco meth0:
>>         staticmethod
>>     def meth0(x):
>>         return x
>>
>> -----
>> 1) The decorators clearly apply to a specific method/function,
>>    therefore there is no need to do any stack pushing in memory
>>    until the method/function definition is done.
>
> Problems with that: duplication (since you now have the name
> of the function in two places) and readability (it's harder to
> see the "def" because the name you picked is too close to it
> in length and appearance).
>
> On the other hand, there's no need to have the function name
> there (was anyone complaining about "stack pushing"?), so
> maybe just using "decorate" would be okay, or a different
> keyword:
>
> class Klass:
>      # init set
>
>      decorate:
>          staticmethod
>      def meth0(x):
>          return x
I think 'mutate' is better then 'decorate', and anyway I like to see what 
is mutated and the possibility to explicitate it make possible
to move decorations from this position ,I put them where I like (at least 
if I have to call them decorations) even in another file...

so

class Klass:
	def meth0(x):
		return x
	mutate meth0:
		staticmethod

mutate Klass.meth0:
	debugged


reads good to me.


					Paolino

	

-- 
....lotta dura  per la verdura



From yong at net.tamu.edu  Wed Aug 11 11:47:00 2004
From: yong at net.tamu.edu (Yong Wang)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:47:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Print command
Message-ID: <20040811154700.B70211589B@net.tamu.edu>

Hi, All:
  For unknow reasons, I often get compiler error in the print
statements. For example: I have following codes:

if len(currentFiberCode) > 0 :
                print string.ljust(expandFiberCode(currentFiberCode,buildingRoom),30), \
                    string.rjust(`currentTotal`,6), \
                    string.rjust(`currentAvailable`,11), \
                    string.rjust(`sm_ava`,7), \
                    string.rjust(`mm_ava`,6), \
                    string.rjust(`sm_used`,9), \
                    string.rjust(`mm_used`,9)
            else:
                print 'data exist in fiber database table'

When I comiped all the codes, I got :
Compiling ./NetDBfiber.py ...
  File "./NetDBfiber.py", line 1086
    string.rjust(`currentTotal`,6), \
                                      ^
SyntaxError: invalid token


How can I fix the problems ?
   Thanks a lot.

    Yong



From cjw at sympatico.ca  Thu Aug 19 13:58:35 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:58:35 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
In-Reply-To: <roy-B37C53.10280719082004@reader1.panix.com>
References: <mailman.1829.1092785390.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<65adnQrUKILiC7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1834.1092791633.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<m2vffgd6pu.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
	<mailman.1858.1092832530.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-6AF702.10114718082004@localhost>
	<mailman.1891.1092854353.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-FF646E.17492318082004@localhost>
	<mailman.1909.1092869465.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-F6FD2B.21140718082004@localhost>
	<cg1vp4$vgd$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040819034652e5089f@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.1955.1092922419.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-B37C53.10280719082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <eT5Vc.29018$Tr.1375200@news20.bellglobal.com>



Roy Smith wrote:
> Anthony Baxter wrote:
> 
>>>Look, name-mangling is horrid, and I don't think anyone's defending it. But
>>>at the same time, "name mangling is there" is not an argument for extending
>>>the horror to a whole new level. 
> 
> 
> Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>I disagree.  It's an effective name-hiding technique.  Simple + 
>>Effective = Good.
> 
> 
> I disagree with your disagreement :-)
> 
> I find a mix of text and puctuation difficult to read.  Human brains 
> don't read letters, they read whole words.  That's why, for example, 
> it's so easy to make a typo and not notice it.  I find "word.word" easy 
> to parse, but "word.__word" much more difficult.  

I agree, but see this as similar to the naming convention:
            long_symbolic_representation     at first glance,
                                             this looks like
                                             three names
why not:
            longSymbolicRepresentation?      this makes the oneness
                                             clearer

Returning to the subject line - When will the final decision be handed
down?

My own preferences are: (1) transform or transformer not decorator
                         (2) the transforms should follow the thing 
being
                             transformed. i.e. after the script has
                             declared the name.
                         (3) a list of transforms.
                         (4) the list should have one entry per line,
                             to make reading easier.

Colin W.
I don't know if it's
> the switching back and forth between letters and symbols, or the 
> juxtaposition of the two symbols down on the baseline (i.e. ".__") that 
> makes it hard to read.
> 
> This is true of the __name__ convention for internal names too, but 
> somehow I don't find that as bad.  Maybe because it's symmetric?  Maybe 
> because my brain recognizes the whole __name__ as a unit, with the 
> "name" part of it being what I really recognize?
> 
> Even worse is when mix them.  Stuff like "__myPrivateFunc.__name__" is 
> total gibberish to me.
> 
> Oh my god, I just realized (Ob decorator comment here) that if we start 
> having people write private decorators, we'll have things like:
> 
> @__decorator
> 
> which really makes me barf.



From joe at schmoe.com  Mon Aug 30 16:01:28 2004
From: joe at schmoe.com (John Doe)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 20:01:28 GMT
Subject: Search for AVI file?
Message-ID: <ol17j0pdpiuubu6f9n5vpho4136vimsq6n@4ax.com>

I realise that this is not really a python question, but python's the
only language I'd be comfortable trying to deal with this.

What I need is to search a drive and find all the AVI format files
that are NOT listed with the AVI extension.  I'm looking over an old
drive of mine from an old computer.  I know the files were renamed
with the wrong extension, but I know that they were originally AVI
files.  Can python do this for me?  Any hints?  Anybody have a link to
something that would already do this?  I appreciate any help.




From eppstein at ics.uci.edu  Mon Aug 23 15:14:26 2004
From: eppstein at ics.uci.edu (David Eppstein)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:14:26 -0700
Subject: Standard graph API?
References: <slrncik8tm.4g.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
	<rVqWc.239552$OB3.207582@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
	<mailman.2240.1093287844.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <eppstein-EA2F2D.12142623082004@news.service.uci.edu>

In article <mailman.2240.1093287844.5135.python-list at python.org>,
 Phil Frost <indigo at bitglue.com> wrote:

> +1 for standard graph API!
> 
> I don't have a "high-end" use for it, but I did write a program which
> graphs the revision history of a software repository. It would have been
> nice to have most of that code in a library, and if such a library
> existed, it would probably implement operations I was too lazy to
> implement, such as coloring.

I have a random sample of graph algorithms implemented in
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/PADS/

I use the existing Guido-standard graph representation, that is:
iter(G) and iter(G[v]) list vertices of G and neighbors of v in G
v in G and w in G[v] test existence of vertices and edges in G

It includes both simple basic graph algorithm stuff (copying a graph, a 
DFS implementation that works non-recursively so it doesn't run into 
Python's recursion limit) and some much more advanced algorithms (e.g. 
non-bipartite maximum matching).

-- 
David Eppstein
Computer Science Dept., Univ. of California, Irvine
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/


From a at b.com  Sun Aug 15 15:48:13 2004
From: a at b.com (wonder)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 03:48:13 +0800
Subject: apache 1.3 started failed with mod_python 2
Message-ID: <cfoga9$13d1$1@news.hgc.com.hk>

Hi,

Does anyone have any instruction about how to install mod_python 2 with 
apache 1.3 support?
After installed mod_python 2 in my FreeBSD 5.2 Current system, and added 
moduleLoad and *.c in the apaache 1.3 httpd.conf file,
apachectl restart got "reference .c not found" error.

Thanks
sam


From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Sat Aug  7 17:37:48 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 17:37:48 -0400
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
In-Reply-To: <m3oelmpsrm.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu> <cf3b56$gt6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>
	<cf3cvt$d3i$1@namru.matavnet.hu>
	<iq6dnbRwnbwU3IjcRVn-vQ@giganews.com>
	<m3oelmpsrm.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <mfydnaxqCcAx1ojcRVn-gA@giganews.com>

Michael Hudson wrote:


> Which you've made up: sorted is a builtin in 2.4.
> 
> By all means carp about the new features, but -- particularly if
> you're going to be sarcastic about it -- please get it right.

actually, the last time I read this PEP it was about a classmethod
list.sorted()

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/patches/2004-January/013946.html

Istvan.




From avner at skilldesign.com  Fri Aug 27 06:14:18 2004
From: avner at skilldesign.com (Avner Ben)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:14:18 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <412CC529.9060700@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com> <412cc31c$1@news.012.net.il>
	<412CC529.9060700@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
Message-ID: <412efced$1@news.012.net.il>

Robin Becker wrote:
 >[snip]
> except that these wrappers/transformers/decorators are able to do what 
> they like to the code including turning methods into properties, 
> changing the argument list etc etc etc.
> 


Which is ok with me, as long  as they only stress and specialize the 
 status of the function (how) but  do not completely alter the 
requirement  (as understood from the name and arguments).  Once this is 
not only allowed, but actively  supported by the language, reading 
Python will become as easy and obvious as reading COBOL.

	 Avner.


From vincent at visualtrans.de  Thu Aug  5 05:05:17 2004
From: vincent at visualtrans.de (vincent wehren)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 11:05:17 +0200
Subject: Embedding python
In-Reply-To: <e8bc7944.0408050030.2a460cba@posting.google.com>
References: <e8bc7944.0408050030.2a460cba@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cest8b$23p$1@news5.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>

Jon Kinsey wrote:
> I've embedded python in a program, am I right in thinking python has
> to be installed on a machine for my program to work?

Not entirely true: as long as python23.dll (or whatever version you are 
using) is available to your program, your program will work. (So you 
need to distribute at least this dll with your program). However, this 
only allows you to use any built-in functionality of python. Once you 
want to import modules from the standard library or from other packages, 
you will need to have them installed. The installed version of (the) 
python (library/package) has to be of/for the same (major) version as 
the Python version your program uses. Which brings you to your next 
question:

> 
> If so how can I find out if python is installed/what version is
> installed - programatically and cross platform.
> 
> Jon


If you need more than built-ins, you may want to consider distributing 
your own Python (cf. applications such as Paint Shop Pro 8.x, 
OpenOffice.org, or Zope on Windows ) along with your application and 
make it live in a sub directory. By tweaking the right environment 
variables from within your app, you'll be sure to get the "right Python" 
- independent of the fact whether or not the ("right") Python is 
installed or not.

--
Vincent Wehren



From mauriceling at acm.org  Tue Aug 24 18:55:37 2004
From: mauriceling at acm.org (Maurice LING)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 22:55:37 GMT
Subject: python raw strings?
Message-ID: <412bc766$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>

I'm trying to toy around with PLY (python lex-yacc) by David Beazley 
from University of Chicago and realized that the lex module uses python 
raw strings. What are python raw strings and how are they different from 
regular strings? I've tried to look up in the python documentation but 
it just vaguely brushes through by saying that python raw strings are 
prefixed with "r" or "R".

In PLY, "+" is "r'\+'" but "-" is "r'-'", why is there an extra "\" in 
"+"? When to use the extra "\" and when not?

Can someone point me in the correct direction?

Thanks
Maurice


From tim.peters at gmail.com  Mon Aug  2 19:56:09 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 19:56:09 -0400
Subject: Microbenchmark: Summing over array of doubles
In-Reply-To: <4d642979.0408021532.2ca19f2f@posting.google.com>
References: <4d642979.0407312049.7a8aecab@posting.google.com>
	<Xns95389B9391F5Eduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011840050.21160-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
	<Xns95395FD0EF85duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
	<4d642979.0408021532.2ca19f2f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1f7befae04080216565c033835@mail.gmail.com>

[Yaroslav Bulatov]
...
> A better estimate of error difference would use random digits as
> opposed to [x]*10000000, but I don't know how I would calculate exact
> answer in any reasonable amount of time. (using Decimals takes over a
> second for 4000 array (with conversion))

Google on

    floating point distillation

It's possible to compute the exact sum of a list of floats using float
arithmetic, where, ignoring overflow, the result is a minimal set of
fp numbers whose mathematical (infinite precision) sum exactly equals
the mathematical sum of the inputs.

In the worst case the best of these methods can require O(log N)
passes over the list of N inputs, but in real life they usually
converge to the result in two passes independent of N, sometimes with
a third pass but over a very short list of floats.

The better-known "Kahan summation" technique is essentially a
partially-broken computation of the two highest-order components of
one distillation pass.

A case like summing [1e100] + [1.0] * (N-1) shows that left-to-right
can deliver arbitrarily bad results (the fp sum of that is 1e100
regardless of N).


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 04:35:10 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:35:10 +0200
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2361.1093446779.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<DA6Xc.213557$J06.90595@pd7tw2no>
Message-ID: <1gj4fj6.kfkov1iafzb2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Martin DeMello <martindemello at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Ayose <ayose.cazorla at hispalinux.es> wrote:
> > 
> > If you can use python 2.3 or newer, try with [::-1]
> > 
> >     >>> def f(m, n):
> >     ...     print (m + n)[::-1]
> >     ... 
> >     >>> f([1,2,3], [10,20,30])
> >     [30, 20, 10, 3, 2, 1]
> 
> Thanks! Where can I look this up?

There should be recipes for such handy shortcuts in the Python Cookbook
(the current printed edition doesn't have this one as it only covers
Python 1.5.2 to 2.2, but we're preparing a second edition focusing on
Python 2.3 and 2.4).

In Python 2.4, by the way, reversed(x) [[using the new built-in function
'reversed']] is most often preferable to x[::-1].  reversed returns an
iterator, optimized for looping on, but if you need a list, tuple, etc,
you can just call list(reversed(x)) and so on.


Alex


From apardon at forel.vub.ac.be  Tue Aug 17 08:56:54 2004
From: apardon at forel.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 12:56:54 GMT
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1637.1092428855.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<30260531.0408131853.18ec2446@posting.google.com>
	<LIqdnd7Jz9Mspr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<412040f8$0$8087$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<AuWdnUL93se81L3cRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
	<slrnci3rlk.k5.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<qMSdnVT-d9UiYbzcRVn-oA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <slrnci404l.k5.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>

Op 2004-08-17, Peter Hansen schreef <peter at engcorp.com>:
> Antoon Pardon wrote:
>
>> How about: that is how my tongue and brain are wired.
>
> Sorry, such "explanations" are nothing more than
> restatements of the original claim in different words.
> They don't actually clarify the issue at all.  That's
> why I called "I just don't" a cop-out.
>
> Anyway, this is far removed from the (to me) interesting
> question of why people apparently have negative reactions
> to Python's use of indentation.  Some people have, in spite
> of your claims that it's not possible, managed to produce
> useful and interesting answers, and for that I thank them.

I would be most surprised if I made such a claim.

Please provide me with a reference so that I can apologize
if I actually did this.

-- 
Antoon Pardon


From zathras at thwackety.com  Tue Aug 17 06:20:32 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:20:32 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
In-Reply-To: <7xoelanpny.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408171055150.8669-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>

On 17 Aug 2004, Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:
...
> No, pure includes C modules included with the interpreter.

See, this I find a ridiculous assertion. After all the modules that get
included changes. That means one week one implementation will be viewed as
impure and the next week pure. That's why I think the whole notion of
purity is ridiculous.

> > IMO, the question is one of practicality. It is practical to use
> > generators to build concurrent systems - and it works pretty well.
>
> Not Python generators.  Generators in other languages, maybe.

I'm sorry, I find it practical and works well. YMMV.

> > If that's not good enough it is practical to using concurrency
> > implementated as an extension to python. If that's not good enough,
> > it is practical to a different implementation of python. Or if
> > concurrency in a single thread isn't sufficient you can change to
> > threads or processes.
>
> No that's ridiculous.

No it's not. It's is _practical_ depending on what your uses for
concurrency are.

> Simulating them with
> OS threads is like simulating register loads and stores with XML
> transactions over the internet.

Wonderful hyperbole. (not being sarky, really is meant as a compliment :)
You've got to admit that's pretty extreme hyperbole. :)

> > And if you choose appropriate coding conventions every problem domain that
> > co-routines and continuations can solve, generators can be used with
> > almost equal effectiveness.
>
> No, not Python generators, they're amazingly useful, but they're much
> less powerful than first class continuations.

I'm sorry, but this is completely false. At the end of the day these
things are all implemented on systems that do not have co-routines or
innate concurrency - ie assembler. All have the same "power".  (But *that*
depends on your definition...) It's just a matter of how much effort you
have to expend. In my experience, generators can be used with almost equal
effectiveness. (Note: not equal, I didn't and am not saying that)
Effectiveness != power.

I do agree though that "practical python" includes what a user of the code
has access to, however this depends heavily on the target environment.

If you're distributing just source to people then yes, what comes with the
interpreter is important. However stating something is "pure python" is
misleading - since there are so many potential different "pure python"
things out there. eg many hosting companies only have python 1.5.X loaded,
if at all, so anything written after that isn't "pure python" to someone
wanting to run something there. Personally I find the phrase more
misleading than useful. Your milage obvious varies :)

If however you are building a tool internal to your company, then what's
practical is very different. etc...

I doubt we're going to agree anytime soon though on much of this, so I'll
leave it there.

Best Regards,


Michael.




From tismer at stackless.com  Wed Aug 11 13:13:42 2004
From: tismer at stackless.com (Christian Tismer)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 19:13:42 +0200
Subject: Integers have docstring for int()
In-Reply-To: <16666.13564.527138.202013@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <59e9fd3a04081105087366db98@mail.gmail.com>
	<16666.13564.527138.202013@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <411A53C6.7090904@stackless.com>

Skip Montanaro wrote:

>     Andrew> I accidentally discovered that all the basic types in Python
>     Andrew> have docstrings that describe the functions to create them. For
>     Andrew> integers, you get:
>     ...
> 
>     Andrew> This seems a little unexpected to me; is there any particular
>     Andrew> reason for this behaviour?
> 
> Why should this be unexpected?  If you execute
> 
>     print int.__doc__
> 
> you get its docstring.  Since the __doc__ attribute is attached to the class
> it will be found when the search starts at an instance of the class as well.

Sure, this is why. But I can understand the feeling a little
bit, because the docstring describes what a __call__ to the
type object does, although the instance is not even callable.

This may origin in the fact, that int and str have been just
functions a short while back, and the docstrings mainly describe
that function call. The docs are less representative
for int being the whole class. One would perhaps expect
a short description of what an int can do.
On the other hand, int() perceived as a function still needs
its documentation as it is now.

Like we have the __call__ attribute of a type, which describes
the call of the *instance*, and this differs completely from
how the type is called, would it make sense to change the
__doc__ lookup of types vs. instances in some way?

The current doc strings would probably better fit into int.__new__
or int.__init__, while the class __doc__ might talk about instances.
(although I even think no documentation would be better than
  the existing docs in the case of strings and ints, which
  show up in some object browsers, and you really don't want to
  read long musings about strings while inspecting a string value
  in the PythonWin debugger).

ciao - chris

-- 
Christian Tismer             :^)   <mailto:tismer at stackless.com>
Mission Impossible 5oftware  :     Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a     :    *Starship* http://starship.python.net/
14109 Berlin                 :     PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/
work +49 30 89 09 53 34  home +49 30 802 86 56  mobile +49 173 24 18 776
PGP 0x57F3BF04       9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619  305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04
      whom do you want to sponsor today?   http://www.stackless.com/


From CousinStanley at HotMail.Com  Fri Aug 13 11:35:02 2004
From: CousinStanley at HotMail.Com (Cousin Stanley)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 08:35:02 -0700
Subject: Flython?
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121608180.11006-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<CISdnRTssu4zrYHcRVn-ow@powergate.ca>
	<2o3ovjF6apnoU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <2o4555F6dms6U1@uni-berlin.de>

Daniel Ellison wrote .... 

| I have to agree that Python compiled to swf bytecode 
| would be very handy indeed. 
|
| I'm no fan of HTML-based web applications, 
| but there are currently few alternatives. 
|
| Flash could be an excellent alternative, 
| but few developers want to take the time to learn (and purchase!) 
| the Flash authoring application to create a better web GUI.
|
| I *like* "Flython" as a name! :) 
| 
| A flying python!  I can see the logo now...

Dan .... 

  There is a freeware alternative called Powerbullet
  for  creating/editing  Flash  .swf  files 
  that runs under Windows ....

      http://www.powerbullet.com/

  I've only done limited testing with it under Win98,
  but it seems to work OK ....

-- 
Cousin Stanley
Human Being
Phoenix, Arizona


From timr at probo.com  Sun Aug  8 01:20:31 2004
From: timr at probo.com (Tim Roberts)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 22:20:31 -0700
Subject: q about cgi.FieldStorage (was: And now to sth. completely
	different: Forget about decorators, think cgi.FieldStorage)
References: <mailman.1272.1091798955.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <hudbh0p08hrimcsgsu5sbqa7qclovdp0c6@4ax.com>

"Ames Andreas (MPA/DF)" <Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com> wrote:
>
>1) Please excuse the bogus original message. I wrote it a minute
>   before I knocked off work and I promise to never do so again :-)
>
>2) What I really wanted to know was:  FieldStorage writes what it
>   reads from the stream that is given to its constructor's fp (or
>   sys.stdin by default) to a temporary file only _in some cases_.  My
>   question was or rather should have been, if it was possible in any
>   case to get what FieldStorage has read from its input stream either
>   as a string or as a file.

Not in its raw form.  The stream comes from Apache and evaporates as it is
read.  If you need to raw data, just forget about cgi.FieldStorage and read
stdin directly.  You can always copy it to a temp file or StringIO and feed
it back to the cgi module later.
-- 
- Tim Roberts, timr at probo.com
  Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 12:28:09 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 02:28:09 +1000
Subject: __name__ becoming read-write?
In-Reply-To: <c94ki0dgh70ud7e1ok8sshlvg4pe96s4h8@4ax.com>
References: <uutji0h87t24cb1nej03gdggs0hg6eno3l@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2205.1093275632.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<c94ki0dgh70ud7e1ok8sshlvg4pe96s4h8@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408230928780a4230@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:58:26 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
> Of course I am curious as to why, and what would be involved, and
> wrong,. with merging the local variable and the actual name for these
> special syntax items.  It would seem to have merit on its own terms.
> 
> For example I had noticed to use string substition on a function doc I
> needed to assign to __doc__ outside the function.

How would you envisage this working? Look at the following code:

def foo(arg):
    __doc__ = "bingle!"
    if arg < 0:
        __doc__ = "bangle!"
    if arg > 0:
        __doc__ = "bongle!"

Now, _before_ this code is run, what's foo.__doc__ supposed to be set
to? Remember, at this point, the code has not been run. The local
__doc__ has no value at this point.

Special casing __doc__ (or __name__) so that assignments to a local
like that inside a function assign magically to the function object is
bad magic. It leads to confusion and poor coding. In general, inside a
function, you don't have access to the function object itself[1]

Anthony

[1] I except using sys._getframe(), or raising an exception and
traversing up through the traceback object, as they're hacks.


From fakeaddress at nowhere.org  Thu Aug 12 02:22:58 2004
From: fakeaddress at nowhere.org (Bryan Olson)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 06:22:58 GMT
Subject: Arranging a dependency tree
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1547.1092280419.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <6ccff37a.0408111831.6eb25a4e@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1547.1092280419.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <61ESc.3831$%B.1788@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>

Heiko Wundram wrote:
 > Basically, dependencies (should) create a tree structure, except when
 > you have circular dependencies. [...]

Non-circular dependencies create a directed acyclic graph (DAG),
not necessarily a tree.

I'm sure Heiko actually knew this, but being the kind of smart-
ass I am, I can't resist the chance to correct him on things he
already knew twice in one day.  Earlier he wrote "large prime"
where he clearly meant "large integer".  I trust he will take
this post in the spirit in which it is intended.


-- 
--Bryan


From sholden at holdenweb.com  Mon Aug 30 08:08:59 2004
From: sholden at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 08:08:59 -0400
Subject: Top Zope sites?
In-Reply-To: <ZNydnRyJtbf87K_cRVn-tw@adelphia.com>
References: <ZNydnRyJtbf87K_cRVn-tw@adelphia.com>
Message-ID: <MPEYc.50058$4o.47009@fed1read01>

Robert Oschler wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> I've been perusing a book on Zope I have, and I'm still not quite "getting
> it".  Can someone give me the URL's of 2 or 3 top-notch sites built upon
> Zope, so I can see what it's really all about?  Is it a phpNuke type thing?
> How popular is it?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
You'll probably get a more adequate resonse from one of the specifically 
Zope-related groups.

regards
  Stever


From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Aug 24 03:14:05 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:14:05 +0200
Subject: Dr. Dobb's Python-URL! - weekly Python news and links (Aug 23)
References: <cgdfku$svs$1@lairds.us>
	<mailman.2257.1093319591.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgeprt$s3k$04$1@news.t-online.com>

Anthony Baxter wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:08:07 GMT, Peter Otten <python-url at phaseit.net>
> wrote:
>>     Thanks to the work of Michael Sparks building on previous efforts
>>     by Mark Russell there is already a patch. Anthony Baxter, the
>>     outspoken proponent of the pie syntax, helps with some useful hints,
>>     too.
>>         http://www.python.org/sf/1013835
> 
> ... just to correct the record - my efforts here have not been
> primarily aimed at defending the pie-syntax, but instead aimed at
> shaking out a decent response. I'm trying _very_ hard to make sure
> that any efforts to go back to Guido are "done right". After the
> horror of the ternary operators debacle, I'm trying to make sure that
> community involvement doesn't end up with a complete bum rap.

I made no assumptions about your motives in the above snippet, so this is
not a correction, strictly speaking. 

> As part of this, of course, I _have_ defended the pie-syntax, because
> it's the best I've seen so far. But if something better comes along,
> I'm happy to go with that.

The fraction of your posts I have read went from (I'm sharpening)
"What crap are you proposing as an alternative to '@'? Guido won't listen
anyway" to "If you want it, at least get it right" 
I liked that and that's why you are in the Python-URL.

> My major problems, btw, remaining with the J2 syntax are the choice of
> the new keyword seems an extremely problematic thing, and the simple
> case of a single decorator results in far more clutter. But these are
> purely subjective judgements. (Hell, this entire discussion is now
> pretty much based on subjective or aesthetic judgements).

Yes, and I am clearly among those who from the beginning where more
concerned about the aesthetical impact on the language than the technical
details that affect the actual implementation. 
But even if I wanted, the formal constraints of the Python-URL make it hard
to use it as a means of propaganda...

Peter




From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sun Aug  8 22:50:29 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 12:50:29 +1000
Subject: decorators vs GIL
In-Reply-To: <45337.24.233.156.35.1092017925.squirrel@webmail.vex.net>
References: <96c2e938.0408081605.706f8ec7@posting.google.com>
	<45337.24.233.156.35.1092017925.squirrel@webmail.vex.net>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408081950191bc041@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 22:18:45 -0400 (EDT), mudd at vex.net <mudd at vex.net> wrote:
> Is there anything else that Python doesn't do well that we should appreciate?

I wouldn't go so far as to say that we should _appreciate_ the GIL, more that
it ends up being not so much of a problem because Python gives us many, 
many better ways to do things than with threads. 

About the only actual issue with the GIL is that it stops a single
Python interpreter
from taking better advantage of multiple CPUs in a box. But, if you code with a
knowledge of the GIL, this is easy enough to work around.

The advantages of the GIL is that the implementation is far more robust, and far
less overhead is wasted in lots of tiny little locks. In addition, it
means that a single
python instruction is guaranteed to be thread safe - so in a threaded app I can
do something like 
    somedict['foo'] = 1
without having to wrap access in a lock to make sure I don't end up with a
hosed dictionary. Once you end up with lots of little locks in a threaded 
application, madness is surely not far away.

Anthony


From bcaligari at nospam.fireforged.com  Fri Aug 27 14:39:12 2004
From: bcaligari at nospam.fireforged.com (Brendon Caligari)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:39:12 +0000
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
In-Reply-To: <87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
Message-ID: <412f7fd0$0$6328$bed64819@news.gradwell.net>

> 
> $ telnet xahlee.org 80;
> Trying 208.186.130.4...
> Connected to xahlee.org.
> Escape character is '^]'.
> GET / HTTP/1.1
> 
> HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request
> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:35:52 GMT
> Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

It's a hosting provider.  Funny though how they would use something like 
Fedora.



From joshl at commenspace.org  Thu Aug 26 12:53:44 2004
From: joshl at commenspace.org (Josh)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:53:44 -0700
Subject: waiting for html to load:  a followup
Message-ID: <mAoXc.19$HM.4573@news.uswest.net>

Hi - A couple days ago I posted asking for help on how to download a 
pushed file.  I am trying to write a script to download a bunch of links 
from a page that takes a while to load.

I managed to get just about everything done using python to load IE, but
aside from not really liking that style, I couldnt figure out how to 
have python download the pushed file, or how to read IE headers into 
python (the headers point to the download location)

Anyway, I decided to forget IE and I am now trying to use urllib2 to 
open up the page, read it, etc.  My problem is the page has a built-in 
refresh and I don't know how to have python re-read the page until it's 
ready to hand over the links.

An example of the page is:
http://edcw2ks23.cr.usgs.gov/Website/zipship/waiting.jsp?areaList=49.0,47.0,-122.0,-124.08&prodList=NED,

I believe I need to read the header, grab the cookie session id, and add 
it back to the header.  I can do all thus, but I'm stuck on probably 
very simple syntax to re-read the page rather than open a new 
connection, if that makes sense (I'm new to http as well as python).


My code snippets:

myreq = urllib2.Request(url)
opener = urllib2.build_opener()
headers = feeddata.info()
cookie = headers['set-cookie']
cookie = cookie[:-8]


while x < 10:
     feeddata = opener.open(myreq)
     data = feeddata.read()
     myreq.add_header('User-Agent','Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; 
Windows NT 5.1)')
     myreq.add_header('Cookie', cookie)
     print data[1600:1650]
     print '\n\n\n\n*****************Using Cookie: %s' % cookie
     print '****************Header info:  \n',headers
     sleep(3)
     x = x+1

Any help greatly appreciated.  Thanks in advance, and when I know what 
I'm doing I'll repay the favors.

-Josh


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Thu Aug 26 05:32:31 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:32:31 GMT
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<bP9Xc.28243$v86.1203@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <P6iXc.44935$xi6.44366@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"Paul McGuire" <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> wrote in message
news:bP9Xc.28243$v86.1203 at fe2.texas.rr.com...
> For.
>
> Paul McGuire
>
>
I'd also like to echo Alex Martelli's comments regarding 'per'.  I can live
with 'using', but the common case of

using:
    staticmethod
def foo():
    pass

reads better to me with 'per' as the keyword:

per:
    staticmethod
def foo():
    pass

(Interestingly, @ and 'per' are similar in that "12 @ $




From eppstein at ics.uci.edu  Mon Aug 23 17:19:38 2004
From: eppstein at ics.uci.edu (David Eppstein)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:19:38 -0700
Subject: Standard graph API?
References: <mailman.2228.1093282813.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<eklxfytr.fsf@yahoo.co.uk> <slrncikma7.e8q.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
Message-ID: <eppstein-A83781.14193823082004@news.service.uci.edu>

In article <slrncikma7.e8q.mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no>,
 mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no (Magnus Lie Hetland) wrote:

> >In my personal graph library, I found that one of the nastiest issues
> >was writing suitably general DFS/BFS algorithms which had "hooks" at
> >relevant points
> 
> Yes... I've been thinking about this -- it might be useful to allow
> some form of traversal (where you could supply your own queue object,
> for example, giving you bfs, dfs, dijkstra, prim, whatever) and have
> the traversal take the form of an iterator (similar to the Boost graph
> library). But if access to each node and its neighbors is available in
> the interface, such traversals wouldn't really have to be part of the
> standard API...

I've tried two different ways of writing a general purpose DFS with as 
you say sufficiently many relevant hooks.  They're both in 
<http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/PADS/DFS.py>

The first way is to generate a sequence of triples (v,w,edgetype):
(v,v,forward) = start of new DFS tree with root v
(v,w,forward) = first time DFS reaches w from parent v
(v,w,nontree) = edge from v to already-visited vertex w
(v,w,reverse) = DFS returns from v to parent w
(v,v,reverse) = finish DFS tree with root v

The second way is a class with shadowable calls preorder(parent,child), 
postorder(parent,child), and backedge(source,destination).  The 
arguments to the calls are basically the same as the first and second 
items in the triples described above, although I suppose I could have 
made separate calls for the DFS tree roots.  The class is instantiated 
with a graph argument and as part of its initialization performs a DFS 
on that graph, making the calls as it goes.

The first way is lower level and I think uglier, but on the other hand 
it's usable to make iterators in a way that the second isn't; see e.g. 
the code in the same DFS.py file for iterating through the vertices of a 
graph in DFS postorder.

A much more complex example of the second way occurs in 
<http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/PADS/Biconnectivity.py>.

-- 
David Eppstein
Computer Science Dept., Univ. of California, Irvine
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/


From paolo_veronelli at yahoo.it  Fri Aug  6 09:16:14 2004
From: paolo_veronelli at yahoo.it (paolo veronelli)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 15:16:14 +0200
Subject: @decorators
In-Reply-To: <roy-B53A92.08194306082004@reader1.panix.com>
References: <d22692a3.0408052234.7230fd74@posting.google.com>
	<roy-B53A92.08194306082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <opscba5cy5dgjose@mail.yahoo.it>



Thinking about the editing of programs containing decorators (which 
probably are not anyway) ,if they are placed before the def (and class?) 
probably
it's right to have a special symbol marking all lines which are to be 
folded with the owner of them,so they can be easily recognized.
Surely this breaks identation layout because these lines look like pieces 
of the outer scope.

Some of the __x__ methods are in some way orthogonal to the code .I wonder 
if this new orthogonality shouldn't share this syntax ....

In ruby '@' is in place  of methods 'firstarg.' which is very efficient.I 
would like to use the @ symbol like first argument to methods ,in place of 
a name(self for most).But this is another story.

I hope there is a way to 'decorate' inside the def which is possibly 
wrong:this thing I would like to understand more.

		Ciao Paolino
-- 
....lotta dura  per la verdura



From fakeaddress at nowhere.org  Wed Aug  4 22:41:25 2004
From: fakeaddress at nowhere.org (Bryan Olson)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 02:41:25 GMT
Subject: Timing Difference: insert vs. append & reverse
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1159.1091655528.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <35b736b9.0408020330.53b24ed3@posting.google.com>	<Xns953983065EEC6duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>	<1a517b5.0408031027.60554dfb@posting.google.com>	<Xns953B4F5373D3Bduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>	<1a517b5.0408041305.3927a6c8@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1159.1091655528.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <p7hQc.6692$AY5.4804@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>

Tim Peters wrote:

 > [Bryan Olson]
 >>[...] I hadn't realized that Python's lists are much slower
 >>than Perl's in important cases:
 >>
 >> http://perlmonks.thepen.com/17890.html
 >>
 >>Would this be a PEP-size change, or just a small fix?
 >
 > "Futile" is closer -- it's been debated to death repeatedly.  Python
 > 2.4 adds a deque type instead, with O(1) insert/remove at both ends,
 > regardless of access pattern.  That's O(1) per operation (not just
 > amortized O(1) -- the deque type never needs to move entries).

But it breaks (efficient) indexing.  Since we can have it all
like Perl, why not?

Googling up "dequeue" together with "O(1)" in comp.lang.python,
(and with the misspelling "deque" which returns more results) I
see some discussion, but very little reason against the
enhancement.  One post by Tim Peters suggests difficulty of
implementation as a major reason.


-- 
--Bryan


From nobody at nowhere.com  Thu Aug 19 12:40:41 2004
From: nobody at nowhere.com (Fred)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 18:40:41 +0200
Subject: Interface graphique pour python
References: <8e16829.0408190650.3fa62d5e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <mrl9i0tvo08ej97s7d5bi6hk9k5egh8cc6@4ax.com>

On 19 Aug 2004 07:50:35 -0700, yaoroland07 at yahoo.com (Roland) wrote:
>J'ai redhat 9.0 sur mon ordinateur. Et j'ai besoin d'une interface
>graphique de python pour cnstuire une application . J'ai cherch? mais
>en vain. Pourriez-vous m'indiquer une?

Most people use wxWidgets, and its Python wrapper wxPython. You call
also take a look at 
- PyQT (wrapper to the QT widget set, the one used by KDE), 
- pyFLTK (... to the FLTK widget set, but this wrapper seems no longer
under development), 
- PyGTK (you guessed it), 
- FXPy (to the FOX library)

Fred.


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 21 20:56:55 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 20:56:55 -0400
Subject: __metaclass__ and __author__ are already decorators
In-Reply-To: <2oq93oFdnrmoU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <mailman.2107.1093099087.5135.python-list@python.org>	<2opgsoFd7807U1@uni-berlin.de>	<mailman.2116.1093113995.5135.python-list@python.org>	<2opp6gFdg3e7U1@uni-berlin.de>	<mailman.2121.1093122249.5135.python-list@python.org>	<2oq4keFd90euU1@uni-berlin.de>	<mailman.2131.1093135604.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2oq93oFdnrmoU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <cg8r0o$r8r$20@sea.gmane.org>

Leif K-Brooks wrote:
> Paul Morrow wrote:
> 
>> So when we define an __xxx__ attribute inside of a function, we are 
>> trying to make a statement about the function --- we are not trying to 
>> create a local variable.  Therefore the Python system shouldn't create 
>> a local variable in this case; it should create a function variable 
>> instead (IMO).
> 
> 
> How do you think a newbie will react to magic behavior like that from 
> the assignment operator based entirely on the name being assigned to?

We must emphasize that they are assigning to a 'magic' variable, as all 
__xxx__ attributes are supposed to be.  One must be careful with magic :-)




From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Fri Aug  6 15:59:20 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 06 Aug 2004 21:59:20 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no> <4112AC7B.1060508@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806egka@bombur.uio.no> <411343D7.3020604@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806c08y@bombur.uio.no> <411353A3.8090502@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806beaz@bombur.uio.no> <4113759E.2070405@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040806rjgh@bombur.uio.no>

Martin v. L?wis wrote:
>Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
>>>"Written by Martin v. L?wis"
>> 
>> So if the file has -*- coding: iso-8859-1 -*-, how does that doc string
>> look to someone using a iso-8859-2 locale?
> 
> Let's start all over. I'm referring to a time when there was no encoding
> declaration, and PEP 263 was not written yet. At that time, I thought
> that a proper encoding declaration (i.e. a statement) would be the
> best thing to do. So in my example, there is no -*- coding: iso-8859-1 
> -*- in the file. Instead, there is a directive.
> 
> About the unrelated question: How should a docstring be displayed
> to a user working in a different locale? Well, in theory, the docstring
> should be converted from its source encoding to the encoding where
> it is displayed. In practice, this is difficult to implement, and
> requires access to the original source code. However, Francois Pinard
> has suggested to add an __encoding__ attribute to each module,
> which could be used to recode the docstring.

Sounds OK for normal use.  It's not reliable, though: If files f1 and
f2 have different 'coding:'s and f1 does execfile(f2), f2's doc strings
won't match sys.modules[<something from f2>.__module__].__encoding__.

(Or maybe the other way around:  I notice that the execfile sets
f1.__doc__ = <f2's doc string>.  But I'll report that as a bug.)

> About your literal question: In the current implementation, the string
> looks just fine, as this docstring is codepoint-by-codepoint identical
> in iso-8859-1 and iso-8859-2.

Whoops.  Please pretend I said iso-8859-5 or something.  I was thinking
of ?, not ?.  Had just written about that in another posting.

>> Just like a str7bit directive, in whatever form, would not catch the
>> missing u in front of the doc string.
> 
> Not necessarily. It would be possible to go back and find all strings
> that fail to meet the requirement.

That sounds like it could have a severe performance impact.  However,
maybe the compiler can set a flag if there are any such strings when it
converts parsed strings from Unicode back to the file's encoding.  Then
the str7bit directive can warn that the file contains one or more bad
strings.  Or if the directive is executed while the file is being
parsed, it can catch such strings below the directive and give the less
informative warning if there are such string above the directive.

I can't say I like the idea, though.  It assumes Python retains the
internal implementations of 'coding:' which is described in PEP 263:
Convert the source code to Unicode, then convert string literals back
to the source character set.

> Notice that your approach only works for languages with single-byte
> character sets anyway. Many multi-byte character sets use only
> bytes < 128, and still they should get the warning you want to produce.

They will.  That's why I specified to do this after conversion to
Unicode.  But I notice my spec was unclear about that point.

New spec:

  After the source file has been converted to Unicode, cause a
  parse error if a non-u'' string contains a converted character
  whose Unicode code point is >= 128.

Except...

None of this properly addresses encodings that are not ASCII supersets
(or subsets), like EBCDIC.  Both Python and many Python programs seem to
make the assumption that the character set is ASCII-based, so plain
strings (with type str) can be output without conversion, while Unicode
strings must be converted to the output device's character set.
E.g. from Info node 'File Objects':

  `encoding'
     The encoding that this file uses. When Unicode strings are written
     to a file, they will be converted to byte strings using this
     encoding.

Nothing about converting 'str' strings.  Solving that one seems far out
of scope for this PEP-to-be, so my proposal inherits the above
assumption.  Though the problem may have to be discussed in order to get
a str7bit feature which does not get in the way of a clean solution to
character sets like EBCDIC.

>>>(of course, requiring that people use escape sequences for
>>>them might be acceptable).
>> 
>> Argh!  Please, no.
> 
> Think again. There absolutely is a need to represent byte arrays
> in Python source code, e.g. for libraries that manipulate binary
> data, e.g. generate MPEG files and so on. They do have a legitimate
> need to represent arbitrary bytes in source code, with no intention
> of these bytes being interpreted as characters.

Sure.  I wasn't protesting against people using of escape sequences.
I was protesting against requiring that people use them.

-- 
Hallvard


From fumanchu at amor.org  Mon Aug 16 01:23:45 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:23:45 -0700
Subject: [Implementation] (first attempt) Re: A decorator syntax not
	yetmentioned (I think!)
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022DF9@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Michael Sparks wrote:
> Subject: [Implementation] (first attempt) Re: A decorator 
> syntax not yetmentioned (I think!)
...
> I've implemented this now, and I have this (kinda*) working. I've
> patched the 2.4a2 release from python.org and made the following
> changes.
>    * Kinda - there's something wrong with my implementation due to
>      scoping, and since I only first looked at the python 
> source for the
>      first time 4-5 hours ago, I think this is progress :)
...
> Either way, the argument on 
> http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators
> regarding J2 not having an implementation just (80%) disappeared :)
> 
> Should I forward this to the dev list?

YES, you should. Implementations are always preferred over rhetoric.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From bh at intevation.de  Fri Aug 20 14:16:08 2004
From: bh at intevation.de (Bernhard Herzog)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:16:08 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E14@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
	<mailman.2063.1093020568.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<s9z4qmx21ca.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>
	<mailman.2067.1093022774.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <s9zisbdzndj.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>

Steven Bethard <steven.bethard at gmail.com> writes:

> I would advise against this.  GvR has said from the beginning that he
> doesn't want to see a vote

Er, you're already having a vote :-)


> -- he wants to see convincing proposals and a more or less 
> unified community support. 

Yes.  But what if the majority of the community favors pies of J2?

> He's also said that he'd be willing to consider 
> adding two syntaxes for a while if we could really agree on a single 
> alternative syntax.

Where did he say that?

> So while the vote for non- at pie syntaxes seems to have been useful for focusing 
> our discussions for an alternative proposal, I can't see what use a vote 
> between J2 and @pie would do. 

Making sure that J2 is really what the community can rally behind.  My
fear is that if you present J2 to him as the community choice he might
actually chose it even though nobody knows whether that really is what
the majority of the community wants.

What Guido did say (in his python-dev posting with Message-Id:
<200408092014.i79KEh123856 at guido.python.org>) was:

    The community is to come up with *one* alternative that they
    universally prefer over @decorators; otherwise,
    @decorators-before-def will stay.  (I'll even give you *two* if the
    community can agree that both are acceptable and really wishes to
    let me pick one.)

I just want to make sure that J2 is really what we "universally prefer
over @decorators"

   Bernhard

-- 
Intevation GmbH                                 http://intevation.de/
Skencil                                http://sketch.sourceforge.net/
Thuban                                  http://thuban.intevation.org/


From ville at spammers.com  Sun Aug 22 12:40:26 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 19:40:26 +0300
Subject: VHHL :( was Re: Python future performance and speed)
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<roy-37CEFC.10153622082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<wt6dncL0d4DMJLXcRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>
	<pan.2004.08.22.16.06.56.409588@virgilio.it>
Message-ID: <du7isbbgm85.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Francesco" == Francesco Bochicchio <bockman at virgilio.it> writes:

    Francesco> And VHLLs will become more and more used as computer
    Francesco> power grows and becomes cheaper than developer time (it
    Francesco> is already so in several application areas).

Don't forget that developer time is becoming cheaper as well. The
issue will be increasingly about code quality and the ability to
deliver on time / at all.

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 03:31:16 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:31:16 +1000
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>
	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:47:35 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> What you're trying to illustrate (I believe) is a superclass doing
> something based on the docstring of a subclass.  Yes this certainly does
> happen.  But the superclass and subclass are separate objects.  I was
> talking about the situation where a function does something based on
> /its own/ metadata.  That is what I'm saying virtually never happens,
> and therefore it's ok to make all assignments to __xxx__ attributes
> inside of a function def create /function attributes/ rather than /local
> variables/.

This is an extraordinarily complex idea - you're proposing that inside
a function there is now access to a brand new namespace, that of the
function object itself. I don't think you appreciate just _how_ much
work this would requre, nor the complexity of trying to explain this
to users. Remember, at the moment, you can't even get access to the
function object itself from inside the function, without using a hack
like sys._getframe() or raising an exception.

Putting aside nested scopes for the moment, there are three namespaces
that are used in Python - local, module level global, and builtins.
You're proposing that there is a new namespace, that of the function
object, and that it only be used by accessing any local variable that
starts or ends with two underscores. At the moment, the scoping rules
for Python are _extremely_ simple. Do you really want to add something
like this, that looks like a hack, smells like a hack, and who's
implementation would be a hack? I know I don't want to see something
like this.


From bokr at oz.net  Wed Aug 11 00:48:56 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 04:48:56 GMT
Subject: Static method object not callable
References: <CceSc.10654$nx2.3040@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<mailman.1476.1092189482.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<bGfSc.10747$nx2.363@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <cfc8fo$unk$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 02:40:07 GMT, "Edward Diener" <eldiener at earthlink.net> wrote:

>Paul Morrow wrote:
>> Edward Diener wrote:
>>> This simple code example gives me the message, "TypeError:
>>> 'staticmethod' object is not callable".
>>>
>>> class X(object):
>>>   def Y(x):
>>>     print x
>>>   Y = staticmethod(Y)
>>>   ad = { 1 : Y }
>>>   def Z(self):
>>>     self.ad[1](3)
>>> x = X()
>>> x.Z()
>>> print "Done."
>>>
>>> I know there must be a way to have a class attribute reference a
>>> static method, and then call that static method through the
>>> reference, so if anyone can correct this it would be appreciated.
By 'reference' are you referring to the Y in ad?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Here are two alternatives. snip...
>
>Neither alternative is satisfactory. Surely there must be some means of
>directly specifying a reference to a static method in a class attribute in
>Python, and calling it from an instance method through the class attribute.
>
>
I'm not sure what you really want, but a staticmethod object is UIAM a descriptor
and when descriptors are retrieved as attributes of something, their __get__ methods
are called. That's why getattr was part of the other alternatives. Alternatively,
you can call the __get__ method directly, and in the case of staticmethod, that
will get you back the unadorned function in question, which you can then call. E.g.,

 >>> class X(object):
 ...   def Y(x):
 ...     print x
 ...   Y = staticmethod(Y)
 ...   ad = { 1 : Y }
 ...   def Z(self):
 ...     self.ad[1].__get__(self, type(self))(3)
 ...
 >>> x = X()
 >>> x.Z()
 3

(BTW, for staticmethod.__get__, probably any argument(s)
other than None or None,None will work)

Maybe this will clarify a little:

A function also works like a descriptor, and has a __get__ method, which is called
to create a bound method when the function is retrieved as an attribute of an
object instance. Note that Z is a function with one argument (self).

When retrieving Z as attribute of the class, the __get__ method gets
the arguments __get__(None, X), which gets you the unbound method.

 >>> X.Z
 <unbound method X.Z>

If we bypass the attribute access mechanism, we get the function itself:
 >>> X.__dict__['Z']
 <function Z at 0x009062B0>

If we do the getattr mechanics manually, calling the __get__ of the function,
we see the method results corresponding to X.Z and x.Z respectively:

 >>> X.__dict__['Z'].__get__(None, X)
 <unbound method X.Z>
 >>> X.__dict__['Z'].__get__(x, X)
 <bound method X.Z of <__main__.X object at 0x009011D0>>

We can make a hokey descriptor object to show this:
 >>> class Desc(object):
 ...     def __get__(*args): print args
 ...
 >>> class C(object):
 ...     attr = Desc()
 ...
 >>> c = C()
 >>> C.attr
 (<__main__.Desc object at 0x009015D0>, None, <class '__main__.C'>)
 >>> c.attr
 (<__main__.Desc object at 0x009015D0>, <__main__.C object at 0x00901950>, <class '__main__.C'>)

So the __get__ args are the self of the decriptor instance itself (handy for carrying baggage like
a function), and here either None,C or c,C for C.attr and c.attr repectively.

Y is a staticmethod object though, not a plain function.
The __get__ method of a staticmethod object returns the same thing
(the original function) for either kind of call.
So when retrieved as an attribute of something, you get the function in question:

 >>> X.Y
 <function Y at 0x008FDF70>
 >>> x.Y
 <function Y at 0x008FDF70>

Bypassing attribute mechanism:
 >>> X.__dict__['Y']
 <staticmethod object at 0x00901110>

Doing it manually bound-method style or unbound-method style:
 >>> X.__dict__['Y'].__get__(x, X)
 <function Y at 0x008FDF70>
 >>> X.__dict__['Y'].__get__(None, X)
 <function Y at 0x008FDF70>

Calling the retrieved function:
 >>> X.__dict__['Y'].__get__(x, X)(123)
 123

Of course,
 >>> X.Y(456)
 456
 >>> x.Y(456)
 456

or
 >>> getattr(X,'Y')(789)
 789
 >>> getattr(x,'Y')(789)
 789

I still don't know what you are really trying to do with that
Z method and the ad dict ;-)

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From len-1 at telus.net  Mon Aug 16 16:39:13 2004
From: len-1 at telus.net (Lenard Lindstrom)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:39:13 GMT
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
References: <mailman.1661.1092519005.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7x7js1i887.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<slrnchug4m.n0d.npat@gray.efault.net> <zn4w2y3g.fsf@telus.net>
	<slrnci21mq.h3l.npat@gray.efault.net>
Message-ID: <isbi95v7.fsf@telus.net>

Nick Patavalis <npat at efault.net> writes:

> On 2004-08-15, Lenard Lindstrom <len-1 at telus.net> wrote:
> >
> > Having followed the development of Prothon it is my understanding that
> > such a thing is not possible in CPython for two reasons. The first is
> > that the yield statement itself defines a function declaration as a
> > generator. Without a specific "gen" declarator keyword as in Prothon.
> >
> 
> Oh, I see. Then I have to say, this is an unbelievable screw-up in the
> language specification. Being able to yield from within multiple
> function-call levels is essential for any non-trivial use of
> generators. Without this generators can only be used for simple stuff
> such as to creates lists dynamically.
>
That is the idea. Generators are a shorthand way to implement iterators.
But relative to other methods they are fast.

> > The second reason is a python function call in CPython involves an
> > actual recursive C call of the interpreter.
> 
> What!?! CPython uses the *C-stack* !!?!?!

Yes.

> Is there a reason for this?

I do not know for sure. I believe performance is one reason. Another is
portablility. Having a python program call an external function written
in C which in turn executes some Python code requires a recursive interpreter
call. Handling the C stack in this case would require non-standard C
libraries. Maybe someone actually involved in maintaining CPython will
give a better answer.

> I mean, for a weekend toy-project interpreter such an aproach would be
> understandable, but for the primary Python interpreter! There must be
> a reason I don't understand...
> 
You are not alone. Christian Tismer has a modified version of CPython
known as Stackless. It supports light weight threads that can be used
as coroutines. For compatibility reasons, though, Stackless generators are
justs like CPython's. But Stackless is to be superseded by PyPy, which
is under development now.

Lenard Lindstrom
<len-l at telus.net>


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Thu Aug 12 14:17:33 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 14:17:33 -0400
Subject: Pyhton Interpreter Startup time
References: <mailman.1556.1092304607.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121103110.4649-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <cfgc7t$8fb$1@panix1.panix.com>

In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121103110.4649-100000 at ccc8.wpi.edu>,
Christopher T King  <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote:
>
>2) Pre-compile the script.  Normally, Python generates .pyc files for
>imported modules so it doesn't have to re-parse the source code, but it
>won't do this for a script specified on the command line.  You can force
>it to compile your script by importing the script in the interactive
>interpreter, but this will also run your script (possibly not desirable).  
>You can compile the script without running it by using the py_compile
>module:
>
>python -c 'import py_compile; py_compile.compile("my_script.py")'
>
>You can then run the compiled version using 'python my_script.pyc' 
>('python my_script.py' will ignore the compiled version).

That's a Bad Idea.  Better Idea: move the code into a separate module
and put the code into a function.  Then change this script into a very
short driver that imports/calls the function.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From nhodgson at bigpond.net.au  Mon Aug  2 19:34:57 2004
From: nhodgson at bigpond.net.au (Neil Hodgson)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 23:34:57 GMT
Subject: Newbie: pywin problem
References: <rCrPc.154159$Mr4.50525@pd7tw1no>
Message-ID: <BcAPc.29745$K53.22947@news-server.bigpond.net.au>

Martin DeMello:

> >>> template = pywin.mfc.docview.DocTemplate(None)
> >>> doc = pywin.scintilla.document.CScintillaDocument(template)
> >>> view = pywin.scintilla.view.CScintillaView(doc)
> >>> fr = win32ui.GetMainFrame()
> >>> view.CreateWindow(fr)
>
> Now how do I get the window to display? I thought the call to
> CreateWindow would do it, but the window just gets created silently.

   The template stuff is quite complex and I never understand it apart from
when I've had to work with it recently. And its been a couple of years. By
the end of your code you actually have a zero sized view window which is a
direct child of the application frame rather than being inside an MDI
window. If you open a file it will go into this view which will spread out
over the app and not be properly clipped. I'm not sure what you want to
achieve. If it is just opening another window within the environment from
code, calling something in the template would be better. The "Python
Programming on Win32" book gives an example of adding a new document type
and view to PythonWin. There is a mailing list for Win32 Python issues at
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-win32

   Neil




From ian at cottee.org  Wed Aug 25 11:14:02 2004
From: ian at cottee.org (Ian J Cottee)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:14:02 +0900
Subject: Group for Plone Users
In-Reply-To: <cgi8kc$9c8@odah37.prod.google.com>
References: <cgi8kc$9c8@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <numuv1-u5f.ln1@suse.zobbo.org>

Yandle wrote:
> I have just started tinkering with Plone and, as is to be expected,
> I've run into some issues. What I want to know is: does anybody know if
> there's a group for Plone users as opposed to Python programmers or
> Zope administrators?
> 

There are newsgroups hosted at Gmane. Look at 
http://plone.org/documentation/lists

Cheers

Ian


From insert at spam.here  Fri Aug  6 21:16:48 2004
From: insert at spam.here (Doug Holton)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 20:16:48 -0500
Subject: PEP-0318
In-Reply-To: <4114152f@nntp.zianet.com>
References: <41122FC2.1080608@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1251.1091764482.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4114152f@nntp.zianet.com>
Message-ID: <aIOdnRybBucMsIncRVn-gA@comcast.com>

Mark Bottjer wrote:
>> Incorporation of all or part of
>> http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecoratorsinto the PEP would also be
>> appreciated.
> 
> Neat page. I would like to flesh out (5.D), though, as it is not quite 
> just "(5.C) with pie syntax" like the document currently states:
...
> 
> I would be happy to add these myself if someone would tell me how?

You have to click on the "UserPreferences" link on the top right of the 
page and create an account (with a username like MarkBottjer and a 
password).
Then when you refresh the PythonDecorators page you will be able to 
click an EditText link at the bottom of the page to edit it.

I noticed you posted the "@decorators at the top of function body" idea 
right before I posted it here, too.  See the "compromise?" thread.


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 12:00:11 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 02:00:11 +1000
Subject: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was Decorator syntax)
In-Reply-To: <VJCdnUtOZ_wN5Y7cRVn-vg@powergate.ca>
References: <6LWdnZCpvI7Ico_cRVn-hw@giganews.com>
	<VJCdnUtOZ_wN5Y7cRVn-vg@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204080609005f8ed302@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 08:24:47 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> It *is*, however, fairly clear that the list of decorators becomes
> harder to see.  Without checking, it's definitely possible that the
> decorator list in the first case is actually part of the argument list.

This is one of the reasons Guido rejected it, see 
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047112.html

> Apparently the term "voting" is deprecated when related to PEPs
> and language design.  ;-)  Instead, we should now be using the term
> "expressing their opinion in favour of"...

Well, it's not so much deprecated as pointless <wink>

> At least, I hope we are still allowed to express opinions in favour
> of things...

In case it wasn't clear from my earlier posts - my comments about "voting"
being a waste of time were meant in the sense of "collecting a bunch of
votes won't achieve anything". Collecting a rationale that is sufficient to
change Guido's mind, however, is encouraged! But simply saying "here's
a list of people who prefer this syntax" won't achieve much at all. Far 
better use of time is to work out a way to convince Guido to change his 
mind (which, it should be clear from the post above, will require a strong
argument, with good reasons for it).


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Sun Aug 22 07:11:32 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 07:11:32 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WE
	DONE?
References: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <10igvr2d1hlgmc9@news.supernews.com>


"Paul McGuire" <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> wrote in message
news:pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720 at fe1.texas.rr.com...
> Well, after 3 days of open polling, the number of additional votes have
> dropped off pretty dramatically.  Here are the results so far:
>
> Total voters: 55 (with 3 votes each)

Now that I've had a chance to look at the syntax, you can count
me mildly in favor of J2. (I haven't voted yet.) It's an extra line,
but I think the explicitness outweighs the vertical space it
takes up.

The keyword is fine even though it will almost certainly require
a future statement for 2.4.

John Roth

>
>
>




From __peter__ at web.de  Mon Aug  9 08:43:39 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:43:39 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no>
	<ceu67e$ioa$00$1@news.t-online.com>
	<HBF.20040805npas@bombur.uio.no>
	<cev7rn$me7$01$1@news.t-online.com>
	<HBF.20040806aoi5@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <cf7rhs$kqh$04$1@news.t-online.com>

Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:

>>>> The long-term goal would be unicode throughout, IMHO.
>>> 
>>> Whose long-term goal for what?  For things like Internet communication,
>>> fine.  But there are lot of less 'global' applications where other
>>> character encodings make more sense.

More sense? I doubt that. What does make sense is an api that abstracts from
the encoding. You can then reduce the points where data in limited i. e.
non-unicode encodings is imported/exported as the adoption of unicode grows
without affecting the core of your app. IMHO chr(ord("a") - 32) is inferior
to "a".upper() even in an all-ascii environment.

>> Here we disagree. Showing the right image for a character should be
>> the job of the OS and should safely work cross-platform.
> 
> Yes.  What of it?

I don't understand the question.

> 
> Programs that show text still need to know which character set the
> source text has, so it can pass the OS the text it expects, or send a
> charset directive to the OS, or whatever.
> 
>> Why shouldn't I be able to store a file with a greek or chinese name?
> 
> If you want an OS that allows that, get an OS which allows that.

That was not the point. I was trying to say that the usefulness of a
standard grows with its adoption.
 
>> I wasn't able to quote Martin's
>> surname correctly for the Python-URL. That's a mess that should be
>> cleaned up once per OS rather than once per user. I don't see how that
>> can happen without unicode (only). Even NASA blunders when they have to
>> deal with meters and inches.
> 
> Yes, there are many non-'global' applications too where Unicode is
> desirable.  What of it?

I don't understand the question.

> Just because you want Unicode, why shouldn't I be allowed to use
> other charcater encodings in cases where they are more practical?

Again, my contention is that once the use of unicode has reached the tipping
point you will encounter no cases where other encodings are more practical. 
 
> For example, if one uses character set ns_4551-1 - ASCII with {|}[\]
> replaced with ??????, sorting by simple byte ordering will sort text
> correctly.  Unicode text _can't_ be sorted correctly, because of
> characters like '?': Swedish '?' should match Norwegian '?' and sort
> with that, while German '?' should not match '?' and sorts with 'o'.

Why not sort depending on the locale instead of ordinal values of the
bytes/characters?

>>> In any case, a language's both short-term and long-term goals should be
>>> to support current programming, not programming like it 'should be done'
>>> some day in the future.

At some point you have to ask yourself whether the dirty tricks that work
depending on the country you live in, its current orthography and the
current state of your favourite programming language do save you some time
at so many places in your program that one centralized api that does it
right is more efficient even today.

> I don't know Perl 6, but Perl 5 is an excellent example of how not do to
> this.  So is Emacs' MULE, for that matter.
> 
> I recently had to downgrade to perl5.004 when perl5.8 broke my programs.
> They worked fine until they were moved to a machine where someone had
> set up the locale to use UTF-8.  Then Perl decided that my data, which
> has nothing at all to do with the locale, was Unicode data.  I tried to
> insert 'use bytes', but that didn't work.  It does seem to work in newer
> Perl versions, but it's not clear to me how many places I have to insert
> some magic to prevent that.  Nor am I interested in finding out: I just
> don't trust the people who released such a piece of crap to leave my
> non-Unicode strings alone.  In particular since _most_ of the strings
> are UTF-8, so I wonder if Perl might decide to do something 'friendly'
> with them.

I see you know more Perl than me - well, my mentioning of the zipper was
rather a lightweight digression prompted by the ongoing decorator frenzy.

>> the way to go in your case. If I were to add a switch to Python's
>> string handling it would be "all-unicode".
> 
> Meaning what?

All strings are unicode by default. If you need byte sequences instead of
character sequences you would have to provide a b-prefixed string.

Peter



From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Sat Aug 21 00:27:33 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:27:33 -0400
Subject: Has anyone implemented BASIC in Python?
Message-ID: <2oo13eFcj548U1@uni-berlin.de>

Has anyone ever tried implementing a simple unstructured BASIC dialect 
in Python? I'm getting interested in language implementation, and 
looking at a reasonably simple example like that could be pretty 
interesting.


From nhodgson at bigpond.net.au  Mon Aug  2 19:13:44 2004
From: nhodgson at bigpond.net.au (Neil Hodgson)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 23:13:44 GMT
Subject: flowcharting is automatic for Python via preprocessor  
References: <mailman.1069.1091487166.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <IUzPc.29707$K53.23470@news-server.bigpond.net.au>

Connelly:

> I think your visual diagrams could help, if they are:
> ...
> 2. Integrated into a code editor.
>
>    I could see this being a new code editor fad, like collapsable
>    functions and classes.

http://www.eng.auburn.edu/grasp/index.html

   Neil




From tim.peters at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 11:53:11 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:53:11 -0400
Subject: Queue qsize = unreliable?
In-Reply-To: <4113A4B1.6040900@rogers.com>
References: <1091805850.15192.12.camel@localhost> <4113A4B1.6040900@rogers.com>
Message-ID: <1f7befae04080608534ec3e092@mail.gmail.com>

[James R. Saker Jr.]
>> I see per pydoc that Queue.Queue()'s .qsize is allegedly unreliable:
>>
>>     |  qsize(self)
>>     |      Return the approximate size of the queue (not reliable!).
>>
>> Any thoughts on why this is unreliable (and more curiously, why it would
>> be put in there as an unreliable function?) Rather than roll my own
>> threaded fifo class, it would seem prudent to use Python's built-in
>> Queue but the warning signs on a rather necessary function seem curious.

[Mike C. Fletcher]
> I would imagine that there is the potential for an item to be added or
> consumed during the running of the qsize method, or between the
> completion of the running of the qsize method and the op-codes which
> deal with the result.
> ...
> Tim, of course, would know better, but that's always been my interpretation.

That's exactly right.  The Queue empty() and full() methods are
similarly "unreliable".  They return the exact truth at the time
they're computed by Queue, but by the time their caller gets the
result they may bear no relationship to then-current reality.

James, why do you think they're necessary functions?  If, e.g., you're
worried about the queue getting "too big", pass a maximum size to the
constructor, and then a producer thread trying to add to a full queue
will block until a consumer thread takes an entry off the queue. 
Indeed, mediating mismatched processing rates is a prime use case for
bounded queues.

There's no use case I know of where knowing "the exact current size"
is necessary, except inside the implementation of Queue (where it can
know it, but at the expense of locking out all other threads for as
long as it takes to compute the result).


From ivoras at __-geri.cc.fer.hr  Mon Aug 23 18:26:51 2004
From: ivoras at __-geri.cc.fer.hr (Ivan Voras)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 00:26:51 +0200
Subject: Python SOAP?
Message-ID: <cgdqvj$2eo$1@bagan.srce.hr>

Is anybody using SOAP with Python "seriously"[1]? It seems there's a 
number of implementations out there, but most aren't developed any more. 
Specifically, I hadn't found a library that supports "sessions" with 
SOAP, implemented with HTTP cookies to achieve server-object persistance.

Have I missed something?



[1] I'm from the "SOAP is bad and ugly" camp, but I must use it in a 
project...


From ville at spammers.com  Thu Aug 26 08:00:05 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 15:00:05 +0300
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgkeio$spo$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2411.1093517690.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <du7brgyt8hm.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>

I vote FOR on the J2 syntax.

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From FBatista at uniFON.com.ar  Tue Aug 31 11:59:22 2004
From: FBatista at uniFON.com.ar (Batista, Facundo)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 12:59:22 -0300
Subject: GUI Designer
Message-ID: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C78B6@escpl.tcp.com.ar>

[A.M]

#- Do we have any OpenSource GUI designer for Python ?

That depends heavily on what GUI you're developing.

Have you chosen one?

.	Facundo
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From user at domain.invalid  Mon Aug 23 15:40:35 2004
From: user at domain.invalid (user at domain.invalid)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:40:35 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <6daa8765.0408230828.6bdc2f0e@posting.google.com>
References: <20040819231139.D039A1E4003@bag.python.org>
	<mailman.1999.1092969866.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<6daa8765.0408230828.6bdc2f0e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <TKrWc.11049$IO1.7917@trndny03>

Artemisio wrote:
> Sakesun Roykiattisak <sakesun at boonthavorn.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1999.1092969866.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> 
>>I'm 28. Have been using python for just one year.  I was first 
>>introduced to programming when I'm in 11 with 6502 machine (Apple II and 
---snip %><---

> I am 35. I discovered Python like 2 weeks ago, so I am nor a Python

I just turned 50 (last week).  Met Python at a robotics workshop last year, and I find I *enjoy* it more than any languages since C and assembly --- it might even lure me into this whole "objects" paradigm.

I've been programming since 1971, when I met FORTRAN on an IBM s/370.  The wackiest language I've used is probably SNOBOL, the only one to use the "self-modifying source code" paradigm.


From npat at efault.net  Tue Aug 17 00:16:44 2004
From: npat at efault.net (Nick Patavalis)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 04:16:44 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
References: <mailman.1661.1092519005.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7x7js1i887.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<slrnchug4m.n0d.npat@gray.efault.net> <zn4w2y3g.fsf@telus.net>
	<slrnci21mq.h3l.npat@gray.efault.net> <isbi95v7.fsf@telus.net>
Message-ID: <slrnci31lc.1h8.npat@gray.efault.net>

On 2004-08-16, Lenard Lindstrom <len-1 at telus.net> wrote:
>
> That is the idea. Generators are a shorthand way to implement iterators.
> But relative to other methods they are fast.
>

But this is only a tiny portion of what one can do with generators and
coroutines! Actually for me it is the least interesting part. Having a
keyword that suggests the possibility of resumable functions
(resumable threads of execution), but then impose such limitations, is
frustrating. Furthermore it can be really problematic if the language
is to be extented to support the more generic version, since then you
will have two syntaxes for the same thing, or you will have to
introduce incompatibilities.

/npat


From noone at here.com  Wed Aug 25 10:46:03 2004
From: noone at here.com (M. Clift)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:46:03 +0100
Subject: Just a quick one
References: <cgi2qq$rvp$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <cgi3ev$g6k$1@online.de>
	<cgi5gl$5de$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<NX0Xc.42174$xi6.18806@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <cgi8ld$fsf$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>

Hi Paul,

Thanks for that. Would you know how to remove the brackets or how to convert
it to a list such as 'Bob', 'Mary' etc...

M




From jack at performancedrivers.com  Sun Aug 29 19:52:49 2004
From: jack at performancedrivers.com (Jack Diederich)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 19:52:49 -0400
Subject: Implementations of Multi-Methods and Tail Call Elimination (Or
	how I stopped worrying and learned to love decorators)
In-Reply-To: <3e8ca5c8.0408291459.6570c936@posting.google.com>
References: <3e8ca5c8.0408291459.6570c936@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <20040829235249.GC17735@performancedrivers.com>

On Sun, Aug 29, 2004 at 03:59:17PM -0700, Stephen Thorne wrote:
> Multimethods come first, because I wrote them first. I don't really
> like the implemetation - I'm sure it can be improved. I especially
> dislike having to use the @staticmethod decorator, and having to have
> the functions in alphabetical order.
> 
> class fact(MultiMethod):
>     @when(lambda x:x==0)
>     @takes(int)
>     @staticmethod
>     def a(x):
>         return 1
> 
>     @when(lambda x:x>0)
>     @takes(int)
>     @staticmethod
>     def b(x):
>         return x * fact(x-1)
> 
>     @staticmethod
>     def c(x):
>         raise ValueError("Invalid argument to fact()")
> fact = fact()

@takes seems like an extra version of @where

> Okay. Lots of sugar required to do it, but look! its a multimethod!
> fact(10.1) raises an error, fact(0) == 1 and fact(5) == 120.
> 
> The implementation looks like this:
> def takes(*arg, **kwargs):
>     def _(f):
>         def check(*x, **xs):
>             def test(a,b):
>                 return b is None or isinstance(a,b)
>             if len([True for (a,b) in zip(x, arg) if not test(a,b)]):
>                 raise NextMethodException()
>             if len([True for (a,b) in kwargs.keys() if not
> test(xs.get(b,None),lb)]):
>                 raise NextMethodException()
>             return f(*x, **xs)
>         return check
>     return _
> 
> def when(f):
>     def _(d):
>         def check(x):
>             if not f(x):
>                 raise NextMethodException()
>             return d(x)
>         return check
>     return _
> 
> class NextMethodException(Exception):
>     pass
> 
> class MultiMethod:
>     def __call__(self, *arg, **kwargs):
>         for i in dir(self):
>             if i[0] == '_': continue
>             try:
>                 return getattr(self, i)(*arg, **kwargs)
>             except NextMethodException: pass
> 
> Okay, thats multimethods. I really don't like the implementation all
> that much, I'm sure there's a better way to do it than using
> exceptions like that. Suggestions?

This screams for a stack frame hack, so here it is.

import inspect
def multi(when=None):
  def build(func):
    try:
      # get the existing version of our func to fall back on
      try_instead = inspect.currentframe(1).f_locals[func.__name__]
    except KeyError:
      try_instead = None
    if (when is None):
      return func
    # else, cascade
    def _func(*args, **opts):
      if (when(*args, **opts)):
        return func(*args, **opts)
      else:
        return try_instead(*args, **opts)
    return _func
  return build

@multi(lambda x:x == 0)
def fact(x):
  return 1

@multi(lambda x:x > 0)
def fact(x):
  return x * fact(x-1)

print fact(0)
print fact(100)

Just because it is possible doesn't make a good idea *wink*,

-Jack


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sun Aug 29 23:44:17 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:44:17 +1000
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <cgt43s$2rv$2@sea.gmane.org>
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgrecn$dgk$0$216.39.172.122@th
	<cgt3s8$2rv$1@sea.gmane.org> <cgt43s$2rv$2@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040829204464124dd8@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 13:34:52 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Have you seen a significant number of cases where a function uses
> > __xxx__ attributes as local variables?  Have you seen any?

Locals, no. But builtins, yes. For instance, __import__.

So your proposal suddently has to deal with looking up _only_ locals,
not globals or builtins.

I have asked this indirectly, and Jeff Epler's asked it more
obviously, so, to restate it:

Have you actually got a concrete, written down proposal? Have you
worked through how it might work, and what the impact on the language
might be? I was hoping that you'd sit down and do what Bengt Richter
did and posted to the newsgroup - worked out how this stuff works,
under the hood, so that you weren't just hand-waving. Oh well.


From bh at intevation.de  Sat Aug 21 12:44:02 2004
From: bh at intevation.de (Bernhard Herzog)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:44:02 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E14@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
	<mailman.2063.1093020568.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<s9z4qmx21ca.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>
	<mailman.2067.1093022774.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<s9zisbdzndj.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>
	<kt2dnePcXdWgz7vcRVn-uw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <s9zbrh4xwz1.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> writes:

> There is a subset of the community which disfavours @pie
> (many intensely). 

That was hard not to notice :)

> Let them hold their vote to figure out
> which, if any, alternative they can widely support.  If
> there is wide support for an alternative, it will be a
> very simple matter at that point, *if* a vote is required,
> to decide which of the two (@pie or the dark horse candidate)
> is preferred.

That's basically what I was trying to say.  Although I think that we
should have that vote.  As I said, my impression is not that Guido wants
the part of the community that dislikes the pie-syntax to propose a
single other syntax.  He wants the community to come up with a syntax
that the community *as a whole* favors over the the pie syntax.  It may
well be the case there is none.  We won't know that after the current
vote, though, because it said to be only about an alternative.

Anyway, in case it matters my vote is

A1 A1 A1

Actually, what I really would like to vote for is the syntax of 2.4a2 in
which there's optional whitespace after the @.

  Bernhard

-- 
Intevation GmbH                                 http://intevation.de/
Skencil                                http://sketch.sourceforge.net/
Thuban                                  http://thuban.intevation.org/


From danb_83 at yahoo.com  Sun Aug  8 00:47:43 2004
From: danb_83 at yahoo.com (Dan Bishop)
Date: 7 Aug 2004 21:47:43 -0700
Subject: elements of decorator syntax suggestions
References: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1298.1091815362.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4edc17eb.0408062125.231f7bef@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1324.1091857951.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<41155C33.37EEB397@alcyone.com> <cf3mt8$948$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>
Message-ID: <ad052e5c.0408072047.23361170@posting.google.com>

Jarek Zgoda <jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl> wrote in message news:<cf3mt8$948$1 at atlantis.news.tpi.pl>...
> Erik Max Francis <max at alcyone.com> pisze:
> 
> >> Overloading a unary prefix operator is out.  As Anthony said, vertical
> >> bar seemed to be the leading contender on python-dev Friday.  You can
> >> find tedious arguments there about most of the others that would go
> >> for you.
> > 
> > Why is | superior to @?  | already has a meaning in Python, and it has
> > nothing to do with decorators ... at least @ has the virtue of currently
> > being unused in the language, and having the precedent of being used for
> > a similar feature in Java.
> 
> Sure, use all characters, that are still not used. Fine. I propose "^".

Already used (bitwise exclusive OR).

> If this fails, please consider "~"

Already used (bitwise inversion).

> and "`".

Already used (`x` is a shorthand for repr(x))

> Oh, and ";" is still not used in Python,
> what about some special meaning for that one?

Already used (statement separator).

The only ASCII characters that aren't used in Python are '@', '$', and '?'.


From nobody at nowhere.com  Mon Aug  9 10:38:14 2004
From: nobody at nowhere.com (Fred)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 16:38:14 +0200
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
Message-ID: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>

Hi,

	I'm currently checking out Python as an alternative to VB.Net
to moving from VB, but can't find a GUI designer that is as good as
VB.

I tried wxDesigner and wxGlade, but neither lets me move the widgets
around. I also tried Dialogblocks, but it seems to only handle C++ or
XRC, not Python.

Is this all there is, or is there a gem I missed?

Thank you
Fred.


From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Aug  5 03:30:18 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 09:30:18 +0200
Subject: optparse object population
References: <mailman.1170.1091668561.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cesnmb$o1t$05$1@news.t-online.com>

Eric O. Angell wrote:

> Is there a way to coerce optparse into populating an object for me?

If you are dealing with just one object you can provide a custom values
parameter:

<code>
import optparse

class Header(object):
    def __init__(self):
            self.foo = "default-foo"
            self.bar = "default-bar"
    def __str__(self):
        values = ["%s=%r" % nv for nv in self.__dict__.items()]
        return "%s(%s)" % (self.__class__.__name__, ", ".join(values))
    __repr__ = __str__

p = optparse.OptionParser()
p.add_option("--foo")
p.add_option("--bar")
p.add_option("--baz")

header = Header()
options, args = p.parse_args(["--foo", "custom-foo", "--baz", "custom-baz"],
    values=header)
print "options is header", options is header
# True
print "header", header
</code>

You can even expand that to work with nested objects, but it gets a little
messy and you are probably better off with Jeff Epler's approach here:

<code-continued>
# (insert above code here)

class Header2(Header):
    def __setattr__(self, name, value):
        if "." in name:
            left, right = name.split(".", 1)
            setattr(getattr(self, left), right, value)
        else:
            object.__setattr__(self, name, value)

header2 = Header2()
header2.nested = Header2() # I use the same class here because I'm 
                           # lazy, not for technical reasons
p.add_option("--nested.foo")
options, args = p.parse_args(["--nested.foo", "hi there"], values=header2)
print options
</code-continued>

Especially, I have some doubts whether __setattr__("dotted.name", value)
will always be allowed.

Peter



From richardshea at fastmail.fm  Mon Aug 23 06:23:44 2004
From: richardshea at fastmail.fm (Richard Shea)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 03:23:44 -0700
Subject: pyXLWriter - simple example code ?
References: <282f826a.0408192035.32687e48@posting.google.com>
	<2omnt7FcdpspU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <282f826a.0408230223.77c95236@posting.google.com>

Aurelio Martin Massoni <amartin at wpsnetwork.com> wrote in message news:<2omnt7FcdpspU1 at uni-berlin.de>...
> Richard Shea wrote:
> > Hi - Anyone out there who has a simple example using pyXLWriter
> > (http://sourceforge.net/projects/pyxlwriter/) they are willing to
> > share with the group ?
> > 
> > I'm interested in creating a .XLS which has multiple sheets within the
> > workbook but I'm having real trouble getting started, I can create a
> > Worksheet but can't figure out how to save it.
> > 
> > thanks
> > 
> > richard shea.
> 
> ########################################################################
> 
> import pyXLWriter
> 
> wb = pyXLWriter.Workbook( 'test.xls' )
> ws1 = wb.add_worksheet( 'First' )
> ws2 = wb.add_worksheet( 'Second' )
> ws1.write( "A1", "January" )
> ws1.write( "A2", "February" )
> ws1.write( "A3", "March" )
> ws1.write( "B1", 1.25 )
> ws1.write( "B2", 2.50 )
> ws1.write( "B3", 1.80 )
> wb.close()
> 
> ########################################################################
> 
> Hope this helps

Hi Aurelio - Thanks for this I appreciate it, gave me a starting point
which I needed ! Just for other W32/Python people reading this the W32
style .EXE doesn't contain as much example material as the downloads
so it's worth using the .EXE to install the package but then taking a
peek inside the one of the others at the example directory. I used
Aurelio's code and then extended it based upon what I read in the
examples. An unexpected plus is that the XML files produced are able
to be read by Excel97 whereas I was assuming it was Excel2000 and
upwards.

Thanks again Aurelio.

regards

richard shea.


From theller at python.net  Mon Aug 30 10:45:05 2004
From: theller at python.net (Thomas Heller)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:45:05 +0200
Subject: Enumerating Network Adapters
References: <4131b09e$0$13683$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
	<cgt571$8lv$06$1@news.t-online.com>
	<413257dd$0$26986$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<mailman.2602.1093876020.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4qmkheha.fsf@python.net>

Dave Brueck <dave at pythonapocrypha.com> writes:

> Olivier Parisy wrote:
> [snip]
>> But actually, a previously posted message suggests a portable way to get
>> the platform IPs. Citing John Abel :
>>  > socket.gethostbyaddr( socket.gethostname() ) will return all the
>>  > details that you need to know.  For example, the output of that
>>  > command on my machine is :
>>  >
>>  > ('hallows', [], ['101.101.101.102', '10.253.1.118'])
>> Are there some pitfalls I'm not aware of ?
>
> Doesn't seem to work right on Windows, for me at least:
>
>  >>> socket.gethostbyaddr(socket.gethostname())
> ('<my machine name>', [], ['169.254.0.100'])
>
> It returned the least useful of my 3 IP addresses - my loopback
> adapter - but didn't return my LAN and wireless IPs.

If anyone really needs it, I can post code for windows using ctypes to
collect ip-addresses and netmasks together with the name and description
of all network adapters.

Thomas


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 08:05:26 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:05:26 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed204082600433e025140@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>
	<cghslg$lao$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed204082600433e025140@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cgkjm5$3lb$2@sea.gmane.org>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 07:20:17 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>Not exactly, but it would include defining those.  One way to think
>>about metadata is that it includes all information *about* an object,
>>but no information *used by* the object.
> 
> 
> See, for me, metadata is data about an object that is defined
> explicitly as about the object. You can look at an object, and say
> "Aha! It supports __getitem__, __iter__ and __len__, and is therefore
> likely to be a sequence type object." This is not metadata - this is
> something you've determined by looking at the object. __getitem__ and
> friends *are* used by the object, and so can't be considered metadata.
> I'd even say that __metaclass__ is not metadata in any sense of the
> word, because it's *fundamental* to the class's workings.
> 

Ok.  Then let's jettison the baggage with the word metaclass and just 
call them 'magic attributes'.  It doesn't matter.  The essential point 
about them is that they almost /never have 'local variable' semantics/. 
  They are attributes of the object being defined.  That's the point I'm 
trying to drive home here.  When we use __xxx__ attributes, we are not 
intending to create local variables.  No.  We are making declarations.

> Something like Zope3's Interfaces, which allow you to specify the
> Interfaces that an object or class implements, are closer to metadata,
> but note that even there, we've gone from an initial API of:
> 
>     class Foo:
>         __implements__ = ( IFoo, )
> 
> to 
>     class Foo:
>         implements(IFoo)
> 
> ... moving away from the double-under form to a more readable and
> useful form. The new form allows for far more powerful and useful
> behaviour, such as inheritence of interfaces from base classes.
> Twisted has also moved from using the former style to the latter.
> These are two _very_ large bodies of code, with a lot of very clueful
> people working on them - and they found that the magic double-under
> name was inferior to an explicit call syntax.
> 

Woah Man!  I thought you wanted special functionality to have special 
syntax, so that it really sticks out that we're doing something special?
It sounds like now you are /endorsing/ the use of normal looking syntax 
that does special things.

Personally, the look of the old '__implements__' syntax was vastly 
superior.  In an instant, an experienced pythonista could see that 
magic was being peformed on Foo.  That fact is obscured in the new 
'implements' syntax.

Wait.  Did I just argue your point from an earlier thread? :-)  See, we 
do (or at least 'did') agree on some things...



> 
>>If we were to have a conversation about this conversation, then we would
>>be having a "meta-conversation."  /metadata/ is data that describes
>>data.  metadata for a function would be data that describes the
>>function; data *about* the function as opposed to data *used by* the
>>function.  For example:
>>
>>    def circumference(diameter):
>>       """ This is a docstring.  It's metadata for this function. """
>>       __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'      # more metadata
>>       pi = 3.14                       # not metadata
>>       return pi * diameter
> 
> 
> There are a small number of double-under names that are used for
> metadata - most of them are automatically inserted by Python
> automatically. The overwhelming number of double-under names are not
> metadata in any way.

I don't need to debate that for my position to be valid.  How about from 
now on we just call it magic data?  That works fine for me.  As long as 
we're clear that it's not (intended to be) 'local data'.  That it has 
more of a declaration semantics.

Paul






From eric_brunel at despammed.com  Mon Aug 30 04:04:32 2004
From: eric_brunel at despammed.com (Eric Brunel)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:04:32 +0200
Subject: Canvas scrolling - scrollBar become "disabled" on change in
	canvas
References: <Xns9552AC6C9E279askariaddressNonVali@207.35.177.135>
Message-ID: <cgumjb$bnr$1@news-reader3.wanadoo.fr>

Askari wrote:
> Hi,
>    I do a "perso"widget where have two scrolls (one vertical, one 
> horizontal) for a canvas.
> When, the first time, I added widget in the canvas, the scroll self-ajust 
> and when I move scrollbar, the surface's canvas "moved".

Well... It shouldn't... The only way to make the scrollable area larger is by 
using theCanvas.configure(scrollregion=(x1, y1, x2, y2)); adding items into the 
canvas should have no effect at all on it...

> But when I deleted  
> (.destroy) this first widgets and that a added other widget, the scrollBar 
> become disabled (ajust for no scroll on the canvas). What/where is the 
> problem?

Can you please post some (simple) code that shows this behaviour? Without a 
clear idea about what you're doing, it will be quite difficult to help you...

> I use basic widget (scrollBar, Canvas, Frame, etc.) from library's Tkinter 
> (and python 2.3.4 on WinXp Pro (sp1))
> 
> Askari
-- 
- Eric Brunel <eric (underscore) brunel (at) despammed (dot) com> -
PragmaDev : Real Time Software Development Tools - http://www.pragmadev.com



From beliavsky at aol.com  Mon Aug 16 09:12:07 2004
From: beliavsky at aol.com (beliavsky at aol.com)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 06:12:07 -0700
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1637.1092428855.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<30260531.0408131853.18ec2446@posting.google.com>
	<LIqdnd7Jz9Mspr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<412040f8$0$8087$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<AuWdnUL93se81L3cRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <3064b51d.0408160512.5358939@posting.google.com>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message news:<AuWdnUL93se81L3cRVn-hQ at powergate.ca>...

> For example, if 90% of people who have the "indentation rash"
> had previous encounters with FORTRAN IV, then it ought to
> be possible to make it obvious in the early documentation
> (tutorial, intro page, etc) that Python is not FORTRAN and
> doesn't suffer from the same limitations with respect to
> indentation/whitespace significance as FORTRAN does.

Uh oh, people are picking on my beloved Fortran :).

Fortran IV was standardized as Fortran 66. Even the following Fortran
standard, Fortran 77, had only "fixed format" with the rigid column
restrictions. The Fortran 90 standard introduced free format, and I
think such code resembles Python more closely than other compiled
languages, because there are no semicolons needed to terminate lines,
and curly braces are not used to delimit blocks.

It would be misleading to discuss certain flaws of earlier versions of
Fortran without mentioning that they have long since been corrected.
Btw, the official spelling has been "Fortran" (not all uppercase)
since the 1990 standard.

I have done a good bit of coding in both Python and Fortran and still
(mildly)prefer using key words rather than indentation to terminate
blocks, for example

do i=0,9
   ! some code
enddo

compared to

for i in range(10):
   # some code

In Fortran you easily wrap a do-enddo or if-endif around a block of
code without touching the interior lines. This is useful for
debugging. If the change is permanent, the code should be re-indented.
In Python the indentation must be correct at all times, which can be
inconvenient.


From hans at zephyrfalcon.org  Sat Aug 21 00:30:04 2004
From: hans at zephyrfalcon.org (Hans Nowak)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:30:04 -0400
Subject: [newbie] Strange behavior of the re module
In-Reply-To: <2ejdi01btug5iskb4ipjpj7eaprd8i7vgm@4ax.com>
References: <2ejdi01btug5iskb4ipjpj7eaprd8i7vgm@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <4126CFCC.8000609@zephyrfalcon.org>

Fred wrote:

> stuff="\colortbl\red0\n0"
> 
> template = "BLA"
> 
> template = re.sub('BLA', stuff, template)
> --------------------------------
> 
> => It appears that the re module isn't very friendly with backslashes,
> at least on the Windows platform. Does someone know why, and what I
> could do, since I can't rewrite the source HTML documents that contain
> backslashes.

It's not the re module, it's that backslashes have special meaning in string 
literals.  See also:

   http://docs.python.org/tut/node5.html#SECTION005120000000000000000

   http://docs.python.org/ref/strings.html

To use a non-escaping backslash in a string literal, use a double backslash:

   stuff = "\\colortbl\\red0\\n0"

or a raw string:

   stuff = r"\colortbl\red0\n0"

HTH,

--
Hans Nowak (hans at zephyrfalcon.org)
http://zephyrfalcon.org/



From danny.hope at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 10:44:28 2004
From: danny.hope at gmail.com (Yandle)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 07:44:28 -0700
Subject: Group for Plone Users
Message-ID: <cgi8kc$9c8@odah37.prod.google.com>

I have just started tinkering with Plone and, as is to be expected,
I've run into some issues. What I want to know is: does anybody know if
there's a group for Plone users as opposed to Python programmers or
Zope administrators?



From charlie at XXXk-international.comXXX  Tue Aug 24 12:17:34 2004
From: charlie at XXXk-international.comXXX (CJ)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:17:34 +0100
Subject: [OT] Juce
Message-ID: <7SJWc.367$5_.162@newsr2.u-net.net>

FYI

Not sure if this type of thing is useful as I am a beginner and its C++ but 
it does look very interesting.

CJ


http://www.rawmaterialsoftware.com/juce/

To quote

JUCE is an all-encompassing C++ class library for developing cross-platform 
applications.
It's particularly good for creating highly-specialised user interfaces and 
for handling graphics and sound.

The intended users are developers like me, who are writing large, complex 
applications in C++ and who would like to use just one clean, high-level API 
rather than a bunch of different libraries for different purposes or 
platforms.




From jepler at unpythonic.net  Tue Aug 17 07:55:40 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 06:55:40 -0500
Subject: how to display unicode in a Label in Tkinter
In-Reply-To: <8f17f4bc.0408161437.2f557935@posting.google.com>
References: <8f17f4bc.0408151819.c06a79e@posting.google.com>
	<cfpop0$jlt$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>
	<8f17f4bc.0408161437.2f557935@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <20040817115539.GA30972@unpythonic.net>

On Mon, Aug 16, 2004 at 03:37:21PM -0700, Ali wrote:
> So how I write in Arabic?

You're unlikely to get anything satisfactory.  Tk doesn't do
right-to-left text layout, and it does character-at-a-time drawing which
means you won't get the proper linking between the characters.

I don't know if this bad news is out of date by now, but it certainly
applies to Tk 8.2 and 8.3 on Unix and Windows.

Here's some related advice from the tcl/tk wiki:
    http://wiki.tcl.tk/699
but you have to have the stomach to read tcl code.

Jeff
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From lopexx at autograf.pl  Mon Aug 16 04:19:58 2004
From: lopexx at autograf.pl (lopex)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:19:58 +0200
Subject: Best programming language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1718.1092639914.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1718.1092639914.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cfpqlf$7sv$1@news.onet.pl>

Roman Suzi wrote:

> ;-)
> 
> Just type into google
> "best programming language"
> and press (I am lucky)
> 

Ruby ?

Marcin Mielzynski


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Mon Aug 30 07:33:00 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:33:00 +0200
Subject: regex into str
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.30.00.49.43.785083@jerf.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408290203530.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<mailman.2571.1093744862.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408290406250.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<pan.2004.08.29.01.54.57.901288@jerf.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408291253300.1159-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<pan.2004.08.30.00.49.43.785083@jerf.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408301331580.1173-100000@kleigh.nl>

Jeremy Bowers schreef:

> On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 12:58:57 +0200, Peter Kleiweg wrote:
>
> > That is not relevant. What matters is that a += 'b' does what it
> > is supposed to do.
>
> If you want to be that way, then fine. No, it doesn't do what it is
> "supposed" to do, in the context you are discussing. It does not add a "b"
> to the original string, it creates a new string containing the original
> contents plus the new contents.

Yes, exactly as it is supposed to do.


-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Thu Aug 12 18:13:31 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:13:31 -0700
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
In-Reply-To: <411bd3f0$1@nntp.zianet.com>
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
	<60dfb6f6.0408111846.615ee9eb@posting.google.com>
	<3YWdnYxLf--ObofcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<cffbbu$amv$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk> <411ba1db$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<EvadnaCm3bK0NIbcRVn-iQ@powergate.ca> <411bd3f0$1@nntp.zianet.com>
Message-ID: <10hnqqm8h7b3k89@corp.supernews.com>

Mark Bottjer wrote:

>
> FWIW, I don't object to the keyword, I object to the indented block. I 
> agree that newbies will need to look either up. My only real concern 
> is that certain suggested syntaxes (mostly the list or tuple forms) 
> look innocuous enough that newbies may not realize that they've hit 
> something new. Everything past there seems more and more like simple 
> preference.


The interesting thing here is that it seems that the reason you dislike 
the indented block is the reason given for preferring it by those people 
who *do* like it -- the fact that it *looks* like normal Python.

Frankly, if a new feature is so radically different from the rest of 
Python that it's deemed that it needs to *look* radically different from 
the rest of Python for it to be understood... that, to me, suggests that 
it's a feature that shouldn't exist in Python.  All the criticisms aimed 
at the decorate: syntax, ISTM, apply equally well to @pie syntax, except 
for the few that are based on indentation level.  And on those, *I* at 
least feel that it'd be preferable to pattern decorators after existing 
language constructs, rather than deliberately breaking all the patterns 
that Python has established.  I don't see the indented declarations as 
any harder to understand that nonindented, @tagged declarations, but I 
*do* see them as being much easier to read.  And I expect to read a lot 
of code, so having something visually jarring seems like setting myself 
up for a future full of low-grade anguish.

I see your point about it looking a bit odd that an indented block 
contain only declarative statements.  However, the @pie mess in front of 
function defs looks, to me, to be not just odd, but downright 
obfuscatory.  It's *much* harder for my eyes to pick out the def and 
thus the function name, and all I see is a function body dangling from a 
blob of @pies. 

Yes, this is personal preference, but it seems that it's a preference 
shared by many people -- isn't Python supposed to fit my brain, rather 
than forcing my brain into Python's shape?  The fact that one can get 
used to @pie-syntax doesn't mean it's intuitive.  The fact that the 
feature is new doesn't mean that we need an entire new code-layout 
principle.  The differences between class & def, on the one hand, and 
try/except & if/else on the other, don't seem to confuse people too 
much.  I'd rather see the same layout principle applied in a different 
way than see an unprecedented and unfamiliar layout principle used in 
one or two special cases.

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International





From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Fri Aug  6 15:00:41 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:00:41 -0400
Subject: Prothon is switching to the .NET platform
References: <000401c47b59$32539220$0d01a8c0@MarkVaio>
	<mailman.1257.1091769173.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061247130.22947-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <10h7lb21dhbuc12@news.supernews.com>

"Christopher T King" <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061247130.22947-100000 at ccc8.wpi.edu...
> On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
> > So now I'm a bit disappointed to hear that you're giving all that up
> > and switching to the CLR.
>
> Ack!  I was looking forward to playing with and hacking on Prothon in the
> future (I'm a big fan of prototypes), but .Net is a big turnoff
> (especially coming from the Linux side of things).  Is this happening
> primarily to provide immediately access to large code libraries?

I think it's possible to do prototypes within Python by
overriding the __getattribute__() magic method. It still
wouldn't be very pretty, but it should be able to do
everything except override the magic methods (those
seem to have to be in the class object for new style
classes).

John Roth
>




From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  6 13:48:55 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 13:48:55 -0400
Subject: @decorators
In-Reply-To: <ufz70gud2.fsf@broadpark.no>
References: <d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa@posting.google.com>
	<eTMQc.36328$K53.24420@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
	<ufz70gud2.fsf@broadpark.no>
Message-ID: <4113c488@nntp.zianet.com>

Tor Iver Wilhelmsen wrote:
> I think what he meant was that the decorators in effect make for
> "hidden continuation", e.g.
> 
> @foo
> def fooDecorated():
>     pass
> 
> is like
> 
> @foo def fooDecorated():
>     pass:
> 
> when other line continuations are explicit.

Which is *exactly* why I dislike this syntax so much. I don't mind the 
"@", though it does look a might out-of-place. What I dislike is the 
placement: It relies on setting a "magic state" in the interpreter to 
affect the very next thing at the same indentation level. I can't think 
of any other place in Python where this sort of thing is done. 
Everything else either introduces a new block, or requires bracketing.

Everyone shows the examples like above, but what about the following?

class C:
   # This is a really long comment that has little to do
   # with the following function; it is here only so that
   # the comment wraps. This is a really long comment that
   # has little to do with the following function; it is
   # here only so that the comment wraps over several lines.
   @ staticmethod

   # MAB 20040806113000: Added argument baz.
   # MAB 20040806112957: Added argument bar.
   # MAB 20040806112950: Initial version.
   def static_method_foo( bar, baz):
     pass

Did you catch it? This method *is* decorated, though it is hard to see 
it unless you are really looking for it. Syntax coloring will help, of 
course, but not much, and we shouldn't rely on that anyway.

My concern is that the decorator can be separated from the decorated by 
an arbitrarily large amount of space. Even ONE blank line is enough for 
me to mentally dissociate the decorator from the decorated. Comments 
make it worse. Now, would a sane programmer do this? One would hope not, 
but there is nothing to prevent it--and I've found that the definition 
of "sane" varies widely between programmers.

What I think might work better is to treat these decorators the same way 
we already treat docstrings.

def decorated( a, b, c):
     @classmethod
     @signature( None, a=int, b=float, c=dict)
     @transactional( database)
     """\
     decorated( a, b, c): A thrice-decorated function.

     The silly function does nothing except get "decorated." classmethod
     determines the form of the first argument (class, object, or
     other). signature changes the call behavior, asserting the types
     passed to and returned from the function. Finally, transactional
     causes boilerplate code to be executed before and after the function
     body, ensuring that either all changes to database are applied, or
     none are. Seeing as this function does nothing, this is trivial :).
     """

     pass

Personally, I kind of like the "@" syntax in this form. It still sticks 
out (and IMHO, it *should* stick out, because it is not a normal 
statement), but it also is easier to ignore if you aren't looking for it 
because it is explicitly scoped at the function level.

We already expect metadata--namely, the docstring--to be at the top of 
the function. This simply extends that idea to include other forms of 
metafunctionality. The compiler already looks for metadata at the start 
of functions; the special syntax helps the compiler determine which 
statements need to be handled immediately, and where the function 
implementation starts.

   -- Mark


From nicoe at no-log.org  Wed Aug  4 09:56:15 2004
From: nicoe at no-log.org (Nicolas =?iso-8859-15?Q?=C9vrard?=)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 15:56:15 +0200
Subject: Perl's Crypt::PasswdMD5
In-Reply-To: <ceqoul$ept$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
References: <ceqoul$ept$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <20040804135615.GD7464@smarties.nutellux.ath.cx>

* Bart Nessux  [15:39 04/08/04 CEST]: 
>Does Python have anything similar to Perl's Crypt::PasswdMD5???
>
>I read about the crypt module... but it only does DES. Any plans to add 
>md5 or other digests to it in the future?

http://www.python.org/doc/current/lib/module-md5.html

Try to be lucky with google using this search string : "python md5" 

-- 
(?>  Nicolas ?vrard
/ )  Li?ge - Belgique
^^   Listening to: old po
                   molasses


From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Tue Aug 17 12:01:28 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 18:01:28 +0200
Subject: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xf3'
References: <4120F820.4000703@fusiondementes.com>
	<20040817061745.GA4259@barbucha.martin.net>
	<mailman.1806.1092756831.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cfta4m$6aj$06$1@news.t-online.com>

oziko wrote:

> Now I can print the tags with no aparent problem. But now whe I tried to
> insert that value into a PostgreSQL data base I get the same error. I
> create the PostgreSQL database with default Unicode with

There seems to be a general misunderstanding about what unicode, an encoding
and all that together in python means.

Unicode is only an abstract definition of character-sets - the usual
suspects like what is in ascii, but also nearly everything somebody on this
planet of ours cares to write down once in a while.

Now an actual encoding is how these totally abstract character sets are
mapped to actual values. So for the capital letter "A", the ascii encoding
maps it to the well known value 65.

BUT: You can define another encoding, call it oziko or whatever, and map "A"
to 1 - if you like it.

Now UTF-8 is also only an encoding - with the capability to map most of
ascii on the usual numbers where you expect them, and a few escape chars
that allow for multi-byte seqhences to appear in the text that encode one
character. So it can encode the whole unicode set, on the price of not
beeing able to determine the length of a string by dividing the number of
bytes it contains it by the number of bytes a character uses - usual one.

So this is an extremely important lesson: unicode is _not_ - I repeat, _not_
- UTF-8. 

Now python has unicode objects. They are sequences of characters - what
shape these internally have is opaque to you and not of your concern. They
are _not_ strings!!!! strings in python are sequences of bytes - as we are
used to from C.

Now whenever you want to use a string that is encoded in a special encoding,
you can get it from a unicode-object by invoking encode on it. Thats what

u.encode('iso-8859-1')

does, if s is a unicode object.

The other way round, if you have a byte-sequence - conveniently stored in a
string - and want to get a unicode object from it, use decode

s.decode('iso-8859-1')

Now if you pass a unicode object to a function that wants a _string_, python
applies for you an automatic encode - with the default encoding!!!! As this
is usually ascii, you get the problems you had.

So what do you need to solve your problem at hand? You need to know which
encoding the sql driver wants for transmitting strings - most probably
utf-8, so they can encode all possible characters. And thus you have to
encode tthe strings you pass beforehand, or set the default encoding
properly.

The last thing is to explain where the u''-thingies fit in. They are a
shortcut for getting a unicode object - whatever characters are encountered
inside the u'', is interpreted with the encoding the python interpreter
uses to parse file at hand. Which one that is can either be specified
implicit (system settings) or explicit using the 


-*- coding: <codec> -*-

line on top of the source file.

You might want to start reading about unicode and python on the net, google
is as always your friend. 

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu  Tue Aug 17 13:29:43 2004
From: davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu (David Pokorny)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:29:43 -0700
Subject: simple Thread question
References: <b8001e9f.0408031151.4f617c6@posting.google.com>
	<ceosom$6ln$1@fred.mathworks.com>
	<b8001e9f.0408041233.1b3ca73c@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <FaednRaon4d73b_cRVn-jg@lmi.net>


"adeger" <adeger at netlibrary.com> wrote in message
news:b8001e9f.0408041233.1b3ca73c at posting.google.com...
> JCM <josh at work.com> wrote in message
news:<ceosom$6ln$1 at fred.mathworks.com>...
> > You should override the run method, but call thread.start() to kick
> > the execution off in a separate thread.  If you call thread.run(),
> > you're just running your code in the same thread.
> >
>
> Thanks JCM and everyone else for your help!  This wasn't that clear to
> me reading the docs (I really DID read them) and your answer saved me
> a bunch of personal (and program execution) time!

It's worth pointing out that while print bytecodes are atomic, print
statements are not.
So unless a) you use your own lock to control output via "print"
or b) you pass only 1 argument to print, you run the risk of creating output
like:

...
thread  a  instance  33
thread  a  instance  34
thread  a  instance  35
thread  a  instance  36
thread  a  instance  37
thread  a  instance  38
thread  a thread  b  instance   instance  39
1
thread  thread  a  instance  b  instance  2
40
thread  a thread  b  instance  3
thread  b  instance  4
thread  b  instance  5
thread  b  instance  6
thread  b  instance  7
...


To create the desired bad behavior, comment out the three statements that
refer to plock.
---
import threading,time,sys

plock = threading.Lock()

class TestThr(threading.Thread):
    def __init__(self,name):
        self.name = name
        threading.Thread.__init__(self)

    def run(self):
        for i in range(1,100):
            plock.acquire()
            print 'thread', self.name, 'instance', str(i)
            plock.release()
            #time.sleep(.1)

def test():
    for tname in ('a', 'b', 'c'):
        thread = TestThr(tname)
        thread.start()

---
David




From dbickett at gmail.com  Wed Aug 18 18:03:05 2004
From: dbickett at gmail.com (Beeyah)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 15:03:05 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <1d6cdae3.0408181320.1063c182@posting.google.com>

"Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<jQHUc.1529$2L3.505 at newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....

I'm only fifteen, having done the programming thing for a little over
two years now. Python is a new development for me; I've been using it
in the past year, and plan to stick with it :)


From paulpaterson at users.sourceforge.net  Wed Aug 25 20:28:28 2004
From: paulpaterson at users.sourceforge.net (Paul Paterson)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:28:28 GMT
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <M8aXc.21883$Jn5.21109@fe1.texas.rr.com>

For

Paul Paterson


From ben at benlast.com  Sat Aug 28 16:05:40 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 21:05:40 +0100
Subject: allowing braces around suites
In-Reply-To: <IB2Yc.228572$TK4.11323736@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPIEPFCFAA.ben@benlast.com>

> From Roel Schroeven
> > Paul McGuire illustrated the corresponding problem in C:
> >     db->update_name(person);
> >
> >     if (is_student(person))
> >         log("update student %s", person->name);
> >         db->update_courses(person);
> >     db->commit();
> Sorry, I meant "C or C++, even with consistent use of braces", implying
> that using braces IMO in general doesn't help spotting this kind of bugs.

On the other hand, *compulsory* use of them, and eliminating the "special
case" of one-line blocks, might.  It's that special case that bites here,
braces or no braces.

Not that I'm in favour of the braces idea - I think it's redundant in the
extreme, and misses the point of Python big time. :)

ben



From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Tue Aug 17 22:34:51 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:34:51 -0700
Subject: No validation routine for an os.path
References: <S%bUc.24081$nx2.7626@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<UOKdnTNP59f1-bzcRVn-rg@powergate.ca>
	<J4yUc.25135$nx2.20393@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <grrav1-i47.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

Edward Diener wrote:
> I do not totally agree, especially as the OS will know whether
> something is valid so it obviously has rules itself. But I grant it
> is more difficult than might be assumed. BTW email addresses actually
> do have a format which can be parsed ( RFC 822 originally ), although
> again it is complicated.

I don't think Peter meant whether or not you can extract an email
address, but rather if it is actually valid.  For example,
which of these are valid?

   john at example.com
   foobar at nosuchdomain.com
   fred!foovax!kremvax!nasa
   one at two@three.com

As a bonus question, are email addresses case sensitive?

Roger 




From arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE  Tue Aug 24 20:26:47 2004
From: arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE (Arien Malec)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:26:47 GMT
Subject: PEP318: radical notion
References: <Xns954E72EC48C5Earienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>
	<412a4222$0$293$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<d3247b7a.0408241413.55b34cb2@posting.google.com>
	<412bc7e6$0$4065$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <Xns954FB1DEE3C6arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>

Christophe Cavalaria <chris.cavalaria at free.fr> wrote in
news:412bc7e6$0$4065$626a14ce at news.free.fr: 

> Arien Malec wrote:

>> Is there a valid use case that supports arbitrary magical
>> non-metadata transformations of standalone functions?
> 
> memoize for example. No metadata, only transformation, doesn't really
> apply to a member function in fact ( although it might be possible ?

Classically, memoize is implemented as function composition, or as a true 
GoF decorator. It's not clear (to me, at least) how much benefit the 
syntactic sugar gets you.
 
> Why is it that there are always some people who doesn't understand all
> the possibilities of decorators and so want to minimise their
> usefulness ? 

I dunno. Who are those people? My objection to PEP318 is that makes 
something that's really powerful (arbitrary transformation) look like a 
trivial declaration. In Common Lisp, for instance, a defmacro form hints 
that powerful mojo is being performed; the same is not apparent in 
PEP318.

Arien



From raims at dot.com  Tue Aug 10 11:14:30 2004
From: raims at dot.com (Lawrence Oluyede)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:14:30 +0200
Subject: Importance of C# (was Re: IronPython-0.6 is now available!)
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>	<ce9cp3$g39$1@bagan.srce.hr>
	<5dydnZSDZaARoZXcRVn-ug@powergate.ca>	<1n5z28erh2m3u.dlg@baczek.net.invalid>	<FvCdnVnESJR0ZpXcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.921.1091114694.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<537ea4cd.0408070757.14790cfe@posting.google.com>
	<41155c78$0$4348$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<144d0df.0408092156.1455f2af@posting.google.com>
	<1o2ouxh30essi.1eewz4ary5xj3.dlg@40tude.net>
	<4edc17eb.0408100607.d620f9b@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1h74vgi67xuic$.140m5wbywlm4z.dlg@40tude.net>

In data 10 Aug 2004 07:07:04 -0700, Michele Simionato ha scritto:

> Even knowing about the MRO MI can be painful. Actually,
> after fighting with MI in Zope I am starting to hate
> it ... :-(

Maybe because they use it *too much* ?
After seeing the (Twisted, Nevow, Atop) source code I recognized that MI
could be useful (they don't use it too much, but they do)

Ciao Michele :)

ps. anyway I'm agree with you, the lesser the better.

-- 
Lawrence (l dot oluyede at virgilio dot it)
"In IE we trust"


From dperl at rogers.com  Mon Aug 30 10:19:04 2004
From: dperl at rogers.com (Dan Perl)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:19:04 GMT
Subject: initializing mutable class attributes
References: <J4zYc.102357$UTP.98636@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<cgul4v$h1d$1@online.de>
Message-ID: <sHGYc.93306$pTn.42032@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>

I will clarify something that was probably not clear enough in my initial
posting.  I am interested in instance attributes, but I am using the class
attributes to provide a default, "null", value for the instance attributes.
Yes, the instance attributes only mask the class ones, but a class attribute
and an instance attribute can be used like this:
    class WorksForMe:
        attr=None        # used just as a default value for the instance
attribute self.attr
        def foo(self):
            self.attr=SomethingUseful( )
        def bar(self):
            if self.attr:
                useIt(self.attr)
            else:
                ignoreIt(self.attr)
This makes it safe for an instance of WorksForMe to invoke bar( ) even if it
never invoked foo( ).

"Benjamin Niemann" <b.niemann at betternet.de> wrote in message
news:cgul4v$h1d$1 at online.de...
> That's the way it is supposed to work. Instance attributes have to be
> initialized via self.foo=..., usually in __init__() which in turn is
> *STRONGLY* advised to class its parents __init__() - or you create
> instance attributes 'on-the-fly' when they are used for the first time
> (useful technique for mixin classes without constructor). Class
> attributes are initialized once for the class and are shared between
> instances.

You are confirming the code I suggested but you don't share my view that
such code is awkward.  I think I I was actually conservative calling it
awkward, I would rather call it unsafe.  If I were a third-party library
vendor, I would not be comfortable providing a mixin class that forces users
to either invoke the parent's __init__ in their constructors or to
initialize the instance attributes on-the-fly.  The latter would even be
against the principles of encapsulation, users should not need to know about
the parent's attributes, especially because they may change in future
releases.  Both ways of restricting the use of the mixin class are unsafe
because they are easy to be ignored by users.  And it is not only the users'
fault if they do not follow the restrictions, it is also my fault to put
such restrictions in the first place.

I think this points to a weakness in Python as an OO language.  I'm not
trying to bash it, but my understanding is that Python is still evolving in
that respect and I think that this should be improved in the future.  Then,
on the other hand, maybe I'm the only one feeling this way and there's not
going to be a change.

> "self.attr1=data" in Father.foo() doesn't "override" the Father.attr1
> attribute you defined before. It creates an instance attribute that
> shadows Father.attr1!
> Both attribute assignments in Father are OK - if you treat them as class
> attributes. They won't become instance attributes by hidden magic.
>
> Dan Perl wrote:
> > There is something with initializing mutable class attributes that I am
> > struggling with.  I'll use an example to explain:
> >     class Father:
> >         attr1=None   # this is OK
> >         attr2=[ ]        # this is wrong
> >         def foo(self, data):
> >             self.attr1=data
> >             self.attr2.append(data)
> > The initialization of attr1 is obviously OK, all instances of Father
> > redefine it in the method foo.  But the initialization of attr2 is wrong
> > because all the instances of Father end up sharing the same value.
Maybe
> > that is desired sometimes, but usually it is just a bug.
> >
> > So the only solution I see to this is to initialize attr2 in __init__:
> >     class Father:
> >         attr1=None
> >         def __init__(self):
> >             self.attr2=[ ]
> >
> > This is already awkward because there is such a difference between attr1
and
> > attr2.  But moreover, I think this forces subclasses of Father to do
> > something like this:
> >     class Child (Father):
> >         def __init__(self):
> >             Father.__init__(self)
> >             self.attr3=[ ]
> >
> > I find this even more awkward because many people will forget to do it.
> > Clearly, this is then a more general issue with __init__, but I think it
is
> > accentuated by the fact that you HAVE TO HAVE __init__ in order to
> > initialize attributes that are mutable.
> >
> > Is there something I don't know here and there is a better way to do
this in
> > Python?  I would like to get a better solution or otherwise start a
> > discussion.
>




From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 02:07:50 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 23:07:50 -0700
Subject: inverse of izip
Message-ID: <d11dcfba.0408182144.14aad4a8@posting.google.com>

So I know that zip(*) is the inverse of zip(), e.g.:

>>> zip(*zip(range(10), range(10)))
[(0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9), (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)]

What's the inverse of izip?  Of course, I could use zip(*) or izip(*),
e.g.:

>>> zip(*itertools.izip(range(10), range(10)))
[(0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9), (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)]
>>> x, y = itertools.izip(*itertools.izip(range(10), range(10)))
>>> x, y
((0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9), (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9))

But then I get a pair of tuples, not a pair of iterators.  Basically,
I want to convert an iterator of tuples into a tuple of iterators.

Steve


From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug 23 22:19:13 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 02:19:13 GMT
Subject: Getting at the bits of a 32-bit integer
References: <85b54e91.0408231552.75f85727@posting.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.23.20.16.40.406025@jerf.org>
	<412a98f4$0$65569$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<pan.2004.08.23.22.00.38.749194@jerf.org>
Message-ID: <412aa5a0$0$68775$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-24, Jeremy Bowers <jerf at jerf.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 01:25:09 +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>> However, I must challenge your need to do this in the first place.
>> 
>> That's a bit, um, conceited.
>
> I said "challenge", not "deny".

True, but to me "challenging" somebody's need to do something
implies that you've got some sort of right or authority to
require them to justify what they want to do.  I've probably
inferred more than I should.  I'm a bit touchy on the subject
now that the Python "int" is going to go away and break some of
my admittedly sloppy code.

> If you're new to Python and you are twiddling bits, the odds
> favor the new user falsely importing old paradigms from other
> languages,

Probably so.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  ALFRED JARRY! Say
                                  at               something about th' DEATH
                               visi.com            of DISCO!!


From fumanchu at amor.org  Thu Aug 26 11:35:15 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:35:15 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E82@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Pierre-Fr?d?ric Caillaud wrote:
> 	I'll vote for it.

Thank you!

I'd like to take this opportunity to say two things:

1) THANK YOU to _all_ who have signed. Keep 'em coming!

2) I'm counting as signatories everyone who "votes", but I'd like to make clear that your name on the document isn't a vote, it's an endorsement. It's a subtle point, but Guido is the only one who will "vote". :)

> 	Can we insert conditional expressions in the decorator list ?

Not with the current patch; however, that option may be allowed in the future. The order of operation would have to be reversed, so *IF* Guido votes yes, then you need to bring this up again immediately.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From elbertlev at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  6 12:37:22 2004
From: elbertlev at hotmail.com (Elbert Lev)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 09:37:22 -0700
Subject: Prothon is switching to the .NET platform
References: <000401c47b59$32539220$0d01a8c0@MarkVaio>
	<mailman.1257.1091769173.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <9418be08.0408060837.781e8c37@posting.google.com>

> in .NET).  Basically, telling people "here's my language, it's a 2 MB
> download, and oh, BTW, you also need to install the 200 MB runtime

Not that bad :) Only 20Mb


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 23 15:13:15 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:13:15 -0400
Subject: On consensus decision-making (was Re: Alternative decorator
 syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WEDONE?)
In-Reply-To: <cgdbi8$5re$1@panix2.panix.com>
References: <mailman.2153.1093185119.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<z-adnRDpSpoTJrXcRVn-iw@powergate.ca>
	<cgdbi8$5re$1@panix2.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CsmdnSOL1aXP3LfcRVn-vg@powergate.ca>

Aahz wrote:

> In article <z-adnRDpSpoTJrXcRVn-iw at powergate.ca>,
> Peter Hansen  <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> 
>>The voting was merely to narrow down the choices.  It seems pretty
>>clear there are now only three candidates in the running, the @pie
>>syntax plus J2 and C1.  The latter doesn't yet have an implementation,
>>which is almost certainly its biggest disadvantage (and not that more
>>people voted for J2 than for it).
> 
> According to a python-dev message from Michael Hudson, there's an old
> implementation of C1 (the *original* decorator implementation).  ;-)

I suppose, then, that Guido really hasn't relented or he would
still be considering it strongly.  I suspect that in comparison
to either @pie (I assume that's A1, but I've lost track) or J2
he feels C1 is just not readable enough to be in the running.

I guess, much as I feel C1 is one of the most Pythonic, I also
feel it is not as readable as either A1 or J2.  Much less ugly
than A1, but not as readable... strange how I feel that now...

Anyway, I suppose this means that the selection will be from
amongst A1, C1, and J2, each with an implementation, each with
a sizable number of proponents.  Wish the man well. ;-)

-Peter


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Fri Aug  6 05:53:29 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 06 Aug 2004 11:53:29 +0200
Subject: tweaking @decorator syntax
References: <b03e80d.0408040809.66c50ecf@posting.google.com>
	<b03e80d.0408051504.19e33991@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1245.1091759909.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040806bo35@bombur.uio.no>

Andrew Durdin wrote:

> it is
> not at all obvious to me that it is rather a kind of attribute or
> modifier of the following function definition. I don't know of any
> other construction in Python that performs a similar, unmarked (i.e.
> non-explicit) modification of the following statement.

Right.  Today, both the human and the compiler can parse that kind of
thing just by looking at the indentation.

Still, if we do get a new way to indicate that something is parsed
differently, then a special character like @ would be good for that.
'@some-directive' in general could be a statement which the compiler
reacts to in some way, and decorators could be a special case:
  @decorator <decorator_name>
instead of just
  @<decorator_name>

That gives the human reader a keyword he can relate to instead of a
special character with an obscure meaning, and the @ character tells
him that there is something special about this statement.

Though in the case of decorators, I still prefer several of the other
suggestions over this one.

-- 
Hallvard


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Thu Aug  5 20:41:07 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 00:41:07 GMT
Subject: Decorator syntax
References: <mailman.1173.1091670172.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<38ednYT1NLz1P4zcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
	<JEiQc.16955$_25.574@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408050856390.31290-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <qbk5h0l0u2moq6kre9ql8v9qkv2trqobc3@4ax.com>

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:45:40 -0400, Christopher T King
<squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote:

>
>I think much of the problem in coming up with a universally acceptable
>decorator solution is that we're trying to kill too many birds with one
>stone.  I believe the decorator problem can be seperated into at least
>three distinct needs:

I don't pretend to have an adequate grasp of the technical issues:

But I certainly find the argument you make in the portion oif the post
that followed from the above well constructed and (intuitively)
convincing.

Though I am also intuiting that the fact that I happen to do so may
not have a major influence on the debate ;). 


Art 


From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Aug 12 18:59:55 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (simo)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 15:59:55 -0700
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
	<cf8trp$lnp$1@nic.grnet.gr>
	<a22gh0dsb94ffqqjqhb3igufi65ap7pg4d@4ax.com>
	<pkulu1-74f.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<30260531.0408102005.5847b9c@posting.google.com>
	<3hpou1-09i.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<30260531.0408120944.5d9ea9f2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <30260531.0408121459.42e200fd@posting.google.com>

Replying to my own post to Roger Binns:

> > > I noticed you have RPMs for Linux - so what do they include - a
> > > complete wxWidgets/GTK+/Python distribution, plus your files?

> > The file in /usr/bin is a shell script that just execs the dotamatic
> > binary in /usr/lib.  The dotmatic executable is actually the Python
> > interpretter with an archive containing the bytecode appended.
> > Only the Python and wxPython modules used are present.

It seems you're using cx_Freeze, well I've just got 3.0b2 working
under Windows, but I seem to recall I could never get 2.2 to work
under Linux, time to try again I guess.

It doesn't seem quite as nice as py2exe under Windows - doesn't do
resource editting, so you still need to include a manifest file and
link the .ico to the Desktop shortcut etc; but if it will work better
than McMillan Installer under Linux, I shall be very pleased!

Then I have to figure out how to make KDE/Gnome Desktop shortcuts,
make RPMs, oh and finish my program! ;o)


From nospam at here.com  Sat Aug  7 12:47:30 2004
From: nospam at here.com (Richard Townsend)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 17:47:30 +0100
Subject: Tkinter "tab viewing" how-to?
References: <pan.2004.08.07.15.45.26.834040@nowhere.null>
Message-ID: <kytujbql8sz9$.t5m52deovksm$.dlg@40tude.net>

On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 15:45:39 GMT, Ivo wrote:

> I would implement a tab viewing (like mozilla) using the Tkinter toolkit.
> Does anyone know if is it possible and where i can find doc about?

Python mega widgets (Pmw) are written in Tkinter. 

Have a look at the NoteBook widget.

http://pmw.sourceforge.net/
http://pmw.sourceforge.net/doc/NoteBook.html

regards,
Richard


From p_s_oberoi at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 16 14:23:03 2004
From: p_s_oberoi at hotmail.com (Paramjit Oberoi)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:23:03 -0500
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1637.1092428855.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<30260531.0408131853.18ec2446@posting.google.com>
	<LIqdnd7Jz9Mspr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<412040f8$0$8087$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<AuWdnUL93se81L3cRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.16.18.23.00.487305@hotmail.com>

>> It seems to me that you're asking for a rational explanation
>> for an emotional response.  It's like asking somebody "*why*
>> don't you like pickled beets?" The answer you get is "I just
>> don't." 
> 
> Hmm... not for me.  The answer would be "because they
> taste like dirt", or "I hate purple", or "anything pickled
> sucks".  "I just don't" looks a lot like a cop-out.  If

That's what you would say, but who knows whether that answer would be
correct?  It could be that you are simply not comfortable with answers
like "I just don't" which go beyond logic, and thus your brain
manufactures reasonable logical reasons when needed.  "I don't know" may
actually be a more honest response than whatever logical response is
offered.

Reasoned, rational reactions are our attempts to understand how we
function.  Our nervous system doesn't care about reasoned, rational
reactions.

:-)


From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Sun Aug 29 13:59:11 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 19:59:11 +0200
Subject: regex into str
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408290203530.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<mailman.2571.1093744862.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgt5hf$8lv$06$2@news.t-online.com>

Jeff Epler wrote:

> This is intended to be impossible.
> 
> Even if you could assign to str.__div__ (and this is very deliberately and
> specifically disallowed) you would end up disappointed, because strings
> are immutable.  That means there's nowhere to store "the last match",
> no way to mutate the string with the "/=" operator, and also that the
> interpreter is free to use the same storage for two equal strings.

Another reason for not allowing this is that modifying builtins can lead to
severe bugs, as other libs might rely on certain functionality. If you
change that, things start getting very weird....


-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Wed Aug 25 17:22:25 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 23:22:25 +0200
Subject: authentication service for unix
References: <cgiqb2$2h4$01$1@news.t-online.com> <inavv1-0eh.ln1@valpo.de>
Message-ID: <cgivu3$7ud$01$1@news.t-online.com>

> Using PAM is definitively not the reason why your process must be run
> as root. What exactly are you doing?

Well, I started fiddling around with pam, and found that when running it as
user the only one I could authenticate was the user the process ran with.

Then I asked about that on the pam mailinglist, and somebody told me that
root rights are necessary.

PAM is not very well documented - if you can point me into the right
direction how to make it work for a normal user, and maybe even have some
meta-data attached to a user (e.g. grouplist), your very welcome!

The following script is authenticating every user if run as root. The
service "claros" is defined like this:

auth required     pam_unix.so
account required pam_access.so


Here comes the script.

import PAM

def authenticate(user, password):
    class AuthConv:
        def __init__(_, password):
            _.password = password

        def __call__(_, auth, query_list, userData):
            print "AuthConv called, pwd: %s" % _.password
            resp = []
            for query, qt in query_list:
                if qt == PAM.PAM_PROMPT_ECHO_ON:
                    resp.append((_.password, 0))
                elif qt == PAM.PAM_PROMPT_ECHO_OFF:
                    resp.append((_.password, 0))
                elif qt == PAM.PAM_PROMPT_ERROR_MSG or type ==
PAM.PAM_PROMPT_TEXT_INFO:
                    print query
                    resp.append(('', 0))
                else:
                    return None            
            return resp


    auth = PAM.pam()
    auth.start("claros")
    auth.set_item(PAM.PAM_USER, user)
    auth.set_item(PAM.PAM_CONV, AuthConv(password))
    try:
        auth.authenticate()
        auth.acct_mgmt()
        print "Authentication successful"
    except PAM.error, resp:
        print 'Go away, %s! (%s)' % (user, resp)
        raise


authenticate("user", "pwd")

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Wed Aug 25 10:00:13 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:00:13 GMT
Subject: Just a quick one
References: <cgi2qq$rvp$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <cgi3ev$g6k$1@online.de>
	<cgi5gl$5de$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <NX0Xc.42174$xi6.18806@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"M. Clift" <noone at here.com> wrote in message
news:cgi5gl$5de$1 at news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Hi Benjamin,
>
> Thanks, that was quick!
>
> How would I print just 'Bob' if the result was
> '[('Bob',One'),('Mary','Spam')] ? As print Name_List[0] obviously gives
> ('Bob','One')
>
> M
>
>

Name_List[0][0]





From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Sun Aug 29 11:18:32 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:18:32 +0200
Subject: Announcing PyCs, a new Python-like language on .Net
In-Reply-To: <1093793065.258215@news.commspeed.net>
References: <mailman.2572.1093751093.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1093788608.645541@news.commspeed.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408291606250.2571-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<1093793065.258215@news.commspeed.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408291717210.2571-100000@kleigh.nl>

Tom B. schreef:

> > Is there a real danger that MS will make its own version of
> > Python, pushing it into the market, and we end up with a
> > dominant version that only works with MS software?
> >
> > --
> > Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
> > info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html
> >
> > The Halloween Documents: http://www.opensource.org/halloween/
> >
> What M*soft should do is build libraries like the Speech Development Kit and
> Direct X into open source modules for Python. This way they are not trying
> to destroy open source but to join with it.

That is not in the interest of MS. Have you read the Halloween Documents?


-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From greg at invalid.invalid  Thu Aug 26 00:27:18 2004
From: greg at invalid.invalid (Greg Krohn)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 04:27:18 GMT
Subject: Just a quick one
In-Reply-To: <cgjk1q$1o4$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>
References: <cgi2qq$rvp$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<cgi3ev$g6k$1@online.de><cgi5vc$m52$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<mailman.2391.1093473637.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgj95i$pl8$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<cgjk1q$1o4$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <GEdXc.652$W_5.77@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>

M. Clift wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> At the risk of looking stupid would someone mind showing me how this is done
> in this case. I can't remove the brackets from (('Bob', 'Mary'), ('Spam',
> 'chips'))  to give(('Bob', 'Mary', 'Spam', 'chips')) . From what Phil and Sm
> said I thought it would be easy. I've tried using list( ). I've had a go at
> referencing the individual elements...
> 
> Anyone?
> 
> Thanks
> M
> 
> 

I don't think you are truly understanding what the parentheses and 
brackets are. How about an analogy? You have $5.34 in your pocket. Now, 
you don't actually have a dollar sign in your pocket. Or a decimal 
point. Those symbols are just used when you want to display the the 
amount of money you have. The brackets are only used to help display 
what is in the list. They aren't a part of the list that can be removed. 
So, your question is similar to asking "I have $5.35 in my pocket. How 
do I remove the dollar sign?"

Does that make sense?

So, are you just trying to change how your list is displayed on the 
screen (or printer or whatever) or do you actually want to change your 
list? I'll assume you want to change your list. I'll use tuples instead 
of lists, though, since you want to use them as dictionary keys. So we 
have this:

 >>> a = ('Bob', 'Mary')
 >>> b = ('Spam', 'chips')
 >>> c = (a, b)
 >>> c
(('Bob', 'Mary'), ('Spam', 'chips'))

First we need to create a list, not a tuple, so we can modify it. 
extend() is a list method that slaps a sequence on to the end of the list.

 >>> c = []
 >>> c.extend(a)
 >>> c
['Bob', 'Mary']
 >>> c.extend(b)
 >>> c
['Bob', 'Mary', 'Spam', 'chips']

What we're doing here is called flattening a list. The ASPN Cookbook[1] 
has a more general method for flattening. It uses a flatten() method. 
Use it like this:

def flatten(*args):
     for arg in args:
         if type(arg) in (type(()),type([])):
             for elem in arg:
                 for f in flatten(elem):
                     yield f
         else: yield arg

c = (('Bob', 'Mary'), ('Spam', 'chips'))
c = flatten(c)
print list(c)

This prints out:

['Bob', 'Mary', 'Spam', 'chips']


Hope this helps.
Greg

[1]http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/121294







From psXdaXsilva at esotericaX.ptX  Wed Aug 25 19:36:46 2004
From: psXdaXsilva at esotericaX.ptX (Paulo da Silva)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:36:46 +0100
Subject: "Socket" files?
In-Reply-To: <2p0ss7Ffh1bdU2@uni-berlin.de>
References: <1093035812.83612@jubilee.esoterica.pt>
	<mailman.2080.1093039543.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4126824a$0$566$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>
	<1093050493.502706@jubilee.esoterica.pt>
	<1093302968.204485@iceman.esoterica.pt>
	<2p0ss7Ffh1bdU2@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <1093477296.616399@mystique.esoterica.pt>

Oliver Fromme wrote:
> Paulo da Silva <psXdaXsilva at esotericax.ptx> wrote:
...

> Why exactly do you want to create one and keep it on disk
> without doing anything with it?  That doesn't seem make any
> sense at all.
> 
Well, I never programmed anything using fifo or sockets.
What I need to do as part of a work is to get information
about some disk or a dir contents and then replicate it
later (something like a backup). I don't really know if
those "files" of type socket have any other role behind
sockets communication. So I thought of replicate them also.
I have seen that tar doesn't seem to "save" them, but cp does.
BTW, those "files" are kept after issuing close().

Thank you for your comments on this.


From miki.tebeka at zoran.com  Mon Aug 23 04:55:02 2004
From: miki.tebeka at zoran.com (Miki Tebeka)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:55:02 +0200
Subject: Parsing C header files with python
In-Reply-To: <873c2gzftf.fsf@emit.demon.co.uk>
References: <873c2gzftf.fsf@emit.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20040823085501.GG1948@zoran.com>

Hello Ian,

> I've got a header file which lists a whole load of C functions of the form
> 
>   int func1(float *arr, int len, double arg1);
>   int func2(float **arr, float *arr2, int len, double arg1, double arg2);
> 
> It's a numerical library so all functions return an int and accept varying
> combinations of float pointers, ints and doubles. 
> 
> What's the easiest way breaking down this header file into a list of
> functions and their argument using python? Is there something that will
> parse this (Perhaps a protoize.py) ? I don't want (or understand!) a full C
> parser, just this simple case.
There is an ANSI-C parser in ply (http://systems.cs.uchicago.edu/ply/)
which you can use.

Bye.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Miki Tebeka <miki.tebeka at zoran.com>
http://tebeka.spymac.net
The only difference between children and adults is the price of the toys


From genericax at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 26 08:33:32 2004
From: genericax at hotmail.com (Sara)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 05:33:32 -0700
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <776e0325.0408260433.449660c8@posting.google.com>

xah at xahlee.org (Xah Lee) wrote in message news:<7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a at posting.google.com>...
> Larry Wall and Cults
> (Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
> 200012
> 
> Dear readers,
> 
> Did you know that throughout history there's this thing called cult?
> It is a very interesting phenomenon. I don't have time to expound and
> teach, but will try to brief you.
> 
>

Hey this ain't no CULT! Our creedo is simply:

   "Larry said it, I believe it, THAT settles it!"

If you don't believe it just look at the reaction if any questions any
element of Perl design!


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Tue Aug 31 10:33:36 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:33:36 GMT
Subject: Splitting a list
References: <mailman.2673.1093960462.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4%%Yc.71719$xi6.36082@fe2.texas.rr.com>

"Ian Sparks" <Ian.Sparks at etrials.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2673.1093960462.5135.python-list at python.org...
string.split() is very useful, but what if I want to split a list of
integers on some element value?

 e.g. :

>> l = [1,2,3,-1,4,5,-1,8,9]
>> l.split(-1)
>> [[1,2,3],[4,5],[8,9]]

Here's my hideous first pass :

>> [[int(z) for z in x.split(',') if z] for x in ','.join([str(a) for a in
l]).split('-1')]
>> [[1, 2, 3], [4, 5], [8, 9]]

When I see code like that I just know I've missed something obvious....



Maybe not the prettiest, but here's a solution using a generator (at least
you're avoiding a bunch of conversions to/from string).

-- Paul


l = [1,2,3,-1,4,5,-1,8,9]

def getSublists(lst, delim):
    loc = 0
    while loc < len(lst):
        try:
            nextloc = lst.index(delim,loc)
        except ValueError:
            nextloc = len(lst)
        yield lst[loc:nextloc]
        loc = nextloc+1

print [ sub for sub in getSublists(l,-1) ]








From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Sun Aug 22 18:17:32 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 00:17:32 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no>
	<ceu67e$ioa$00$1@news.t-online.com>
	<HBF.20040805npas@bombur.uio.no>
	<cev7rn$me7$01$1@news.t-online.com>
	<HBF.20040806aoi5@bombur.uio.no>
	<cf7rhs$kqh$04$1@news.t-online.com>
	<HBF.20040822l1c0@bombur.uio.no> <412907C8.1090104@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040822gmmp@bombur.uio.no> <412912C8.8080707@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040823fs19@bombur.uio.no>

Martin v. L?wis wrote:
>Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
>>>I agree with many things you said, but this example is bogus. If I
>>>(as a German) use ns_4551-1, sorting is simple - and incorrect, because,
>>>as you say, ? sorts with o in my language - yet the simple sorting of
>>>ns_4551-1 doesn't. So sorting is *not* simple with ns_4551-1.
> 
> Ah, I missed the point that there is no ? in ns_4551-1. If so, then the
> best way to represent the characters is to replace ? with "oe" and ?
> with "ae"; replacing them merely with "o" and "a" would be considered
> inadequat.

Duh.  Of course.  We usually did that too when we had to write Norwegian
in ASCII.  It bites sometimes, though - like when it hits the common '1
character = 1 byte' assumption which someone -- John Roth? mentioned.
Maybe that's why we are getting to ?->o in e-mail addresses and such
things nowadays, to keep things simple.

In a way, it is rather nice to notice that I'm forgetthing that stuff.
Maybe someday I won't even be able to read texts with {|} for ???
without slowing down:-)

>> And if I want to get both right, I need a sort_name field which is
>> distinct from the display_name field.  There you would be lowis, while
>> the Swede T?rnquist would be t?rnquist.  Or maybe lowis\tl?wis or
>> something; a kind of private implementation of strxfrm().
> 
> But you can have a strxfrm for Unicode as well! There is nothing
> inherent in Unicode that prevents using the same approach.

Not after you have discarded the information which says whether to sort
? as ? or o.

> Of course, the question always is what result you *want*: If you
> have text that contains simultaneously Latin and Greek characters,
> how would you like to collate it? Neither the German or Greek
> collation rules are likely to help, as they don't consider the issue
> of additional alphabets.

True enough.  But when you mix entirely different scripts, you have
worse problems anyway; you'll often need to transliterate your name to
the local script - or to something close to English, I guess.  A written
name in a script the locals can't read isn't particularly useful.

> If possible, you should assign a language tag to each entry, and then
> sort first by language, then according to the language's collation
> rules.

That sounds very wrong for lists that are sorted for humans to search,
unless I misunderstand you.  That would place all Swedes after all
Norwegians in the phone book, for example.  And if you aren't sure of
the nationality of someone, you'd have to look through all foreign
languages that are present.

-- 
Hallvard


From jepler at unpythonic.net  Sat Aug 21 09:12:50 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 08:12:50 -0500
Subject: popen child termination
In-Reply-To: <412723B7.1080002@bvx.cz>
References: <412723B7.1080002@bvx.cz>
Message-ID: <20040821131250.GC1458@unpythonic.net>

Why are you using popen instead of system?  Is it to discard the output
from the program?  If so, your best choice would be to use shell
redirection in system().  system() already waits for the child to exit.
If you really want to use popen, the class-based interface (Popen3,
Popen4) will give you an object with a pid attribute and wait() and
poll() methods to check for exiting.

BUT your real problem is that os.remove doesn't expand paths.  Use
os.path.expanduser:
    os.path.exists("~")                     -> 0
    os.path.exists(os.path.expanduser("~")) -> 1

Jeff
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From marduk at python.net  Thu Aug 19 13:30:25 2004
From: marduk at python.net (marduk)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:30:25 -0500
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
References: <mailman.1829.1092785390.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<65adnQrUKILiC7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1834.1092791633.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<m2vffgd6pu.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
	<mailman.1858.1092832530.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-6AF702.10114718082004@localhost>
	<mailman.1891.1092854353.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-FF646E.17492318082004@localhost>
	<mailman.1909.1092869465.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-F6FD2B.21140718082004@localhost>
	<cg1vp4$vgd$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040819034652e5089f@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.1955.1092922419.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-B37C53.10280719082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.19.17.30.23.952112@python.net>

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:28:07 -0400, Roy Smith wrote:


> Oh my god, I just realized (Ob decorator comment here) that if we start 
> having people write private decorators, we'll have things like:
> 
> @__decorator

I wish to have a private decorator.  My apartment looks boring.

-m


From miki.tebeka at zoran.com  Mon Aug  9 09:51:57 2004
From: miki.tebeka at zoran.com (Miki Tebeka)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:51:57 +0200
Subject: help
In-Reply-To: <20040809043348.94101.qmail@web8203.mail.in.yahoo.com>
References: <20040809043348.94101.qmail@web8203.mail.in.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040809135156.GW2636@zoran.com>

Hello Neha,

> hello sir,
>               i want to know what r advantages of
> using perl over python and tcl for network programming
> at tcp/ip layer.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Bye.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Miki Tebeka <miki.tebeka at zoran.com>
http://tebeka.spymac.net
The only difference between children and adults is the price of the toys


From ville at spammers.com  Thu Aug 26 15:50:02 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 22:50:02 +0300
Subject: Message queues [Re: Best processor (i386) for Python performance?]
References: <cgjsk2$le4@odah37.prod.google.com>
	<412dfb17$0$65599$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<mailman.2443.1093535390.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ur7ptixxk.fsf@fitlinxx.com>
Message-ID: <du7oekx4r2t.fsf_-_@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "David" == David Bolen <db3l at fitlinxx.com> writes:

    David> I do think it can be tricky to determine just what case an
    David> application falls into (and many oscillate between I/O and
    David> CPU bound modes), and indeed a purely CPU bound Python
    David> application (if in Python code and not a well-behaving
    David> extension module) isn't going to be helped at all.

The sensible thing to do then is to use multiple processes, not just
multiple threads. Many Python apps use Queue.Queue anyway, and such an
approach is often easy to convert over to use processes instead of
threads.

In fact, it might be fun to have a trivial message queue
implementation in the standard library:

# server code

frow mq import *

q,results = MQueue(),MQueue()

# file has just a handle, like
# mq:123.12.12.54:67

q.publish(open("~/jobs","w"))   
results.publish(open("~/result","w"))
spawn_server_if_needed() 

while 1:
  job = q.get()
  res = my_handle_job( job )
  results.put(res)


# client code

...

req, results = MQueue(open("~/job")), MQueue(open("~/results")) 

req.put( ("easyjob", 34, 2.44) )
req.put( ("easyjob", 213, 2.44) )

...


Obviously these trivial mqueues could still be wrapped with additional
rendezvous functionality:

job = mq.Job(("hello",2))

rv = mq.Rendezvous(q,resultqueue)

rv.put(job)

res = job.result()  # blocks until result is ready

Though this might be more in the territory of external
libs/frameworks... but hey, we've already got xml-rpc and web server
functionality ;-).

Inter-language systems should obviously something like Corba for this.

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From davidf at sjsoft.com  Fri Aug 20 08:44:16 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:44:16 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2029.1093000322.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2029.1093000322.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cg4rn2$omu$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

Michael Sparks wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Paul McGuire wrote:
> 
> 
>>"Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy)" <tdelaney at avaya.com> wrote in message
>>news:mailman.1989.1092960560.5135.python-list at python.org...
>>
>>>I think a web page for tabulating votes would be better (see the
>>>response to the previous vote on 3 syntaxes).
>>
>>I couldn't agree more, Tim, but time is short.
> 
> 
> Time might be short, but don't forget timezone issues. Usenet takes time
> to propogate postings, etc.
> 
> 
>>BTW, where are all the votes for option "A"?  Where are all the people who
>>hated it but now like it?
> 
> 
> I think one of the problems is the vote might be viewed as "which
> alternative to A1 do you like" rather than "which alternative, even
> including A1, do you like" - personally I'd be very interested to see
> the level of support for A1, _especially_ if it overwhelms support for
> any other syntax...
> 
> Tallying the results of 22 votes now:
> 
>  > for i in `cat votes.txt |cut -d, -f1`; do echo $i; done|sort|uniq -c
>       4 A1
>      14 C1
>       2 C2
>       1 C4
>       2 D1
>       1 D2
>       2 E1
>       2 E2
>       1 E4
>       5 F
>       1 H
>       1 I
>      23 J2
>       3 K
>       4 L
> 
> People who changed their votes from "J2 J2 A1" to "J2 J2 J2" I've
> included as "J2 J2 A1" based on the question above.
> 
> Votes included minus email addresses below...
> 
> Regards,

I'm keeping a running tally at http://davidf.sjsoft.com/decoratortally.htm

Code used at http://davidf.sjsoft.com/files/countvotes.py
Now I'm tempted to make it include an nntp client to make it fully 
automatic ... interesting that I actually haven't used decorators to 
write this at all! :-)

David


From jacob at cd.chalmers.se  Tue Aug 10 14:06:56 2004
From: jacob at cd.chalmers.se (Jacob Hallen)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 18:06:56 GMT
Subject: Queue qsize = unreliable?
References: <mailman.1277.1091805846.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<zeCdnfT6tL31Oo7cRVn-tg@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <cfb2s0$nqn$1@eol.dd.chalmers.se>

In article <zeCdnfT6tL31Oo7cRVn-tg at powergate.ca>,
Peter Hansen  <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
>James R. Saker Jr. wrote:
>
>> I see per pydoc that Queue.Queue()'s .qsize is allegedly unreliable:
>> 
>>      |  qsize(self)
>>      |      Return the approximate size of the queue (not reliable!).
>> 
>> Any thoughts on why this is unreliable (and more curiously, why it would
>> be put in there as an unreliable function?) Rather than roll my own
>> threaded fifo class, it would seem prudent to use Python's built-in
>> Queue but the warning signs on a rather necessary function seem curious.
>
>(Why do you think this function is necessary?  It's probably
>rare to really need it, except perhaps during debugging... )
>
>Anyway, the reason it's called "unreliable", though the term
>"inaccurate" might be more correct, is because while you are
>getting the size of the queue, it might be updated such that
>the new size is one or more fewer or larger than the value
>that is about to be returned to you.  In effect, the value is
>guaranteed accurate only for the precise instant in time, now
>passed, that it was determined, but by the time the calling
>routine actually sees the value the size could be anything.
>
>Note also the latest docs at docs.python.org, which state the
>case a little more clearly.
>
>"""Return the approximate size of the queue. Because of
>multithreading semantics, this number is not reliable. """

And an inaccurate number is still quite usable. If you are
the only one reading from a queue, you know that the number
is at least as large as indicated. If you read from multiple
queues, you can use the indicated number to pick which queue
to handle first.

This allows you to do pollling and fair scheduling and some other
neat tricks.

The same sort of tricks works for writers as well.

Jacob Hall?n

-- 


From cedmunds at spamless.rochester.rr.com  Sat Aug 28 23:09:03 2004
From: cedmunds at spamless.rochester.rr.com (Cy Edmunds)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 03:09:03 GMT
Subject: simple compiled languages?
References: <7xzn4fu188.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<_1bYc.855$2s.374@twister.nyroc.rr.com>
	<7xbrguvfn6.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <jNbYc.49640$Kt5.6261@twister.nyroc.rr.com>

"Paul Rubin" <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> wrote in message
news:7xbrguvfn6.fsf at ruckus.brouhaha.com...
> "Cy Edmunds" <cedmunds at spamless.rochester.rr.com> writes:
> > Turbo Pascal. I used to think it was great in 1983. :)
>
> Yeah, they never released the source code though.  I should have added
> that as a qualification.
>
> BDS C was released, by the way, but it's written entirely in 8080
> assembler.

Ah, yes. "Brain Dead Software". Great name. lol

-- 
Cy
http://home.rochester.rr.com/cyhome/




From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 09:30:37 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:30:37 +0200
Subject: Proposal for removing self
References: <T_7Xc.61360$Fg5.2281@attbi_s53>
	<b74e43f1.0408252333.48074974@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1gj4sup.hrowbz1bzo06mN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Ravi Teja Bhupatiraju <webraviteja at yahoo.com> wrote:
   ...
> <sample>
> class FooBar:
>     __public__ = [Name, Age]
>     def setName(name):
>         Name = name
> </sample>

Go ahead: learn about metaclasses and bytecode hacking and write your
custom metaclass to perform this.  Except for the little detail that
you'll never get away with not quoting 'Name' and 'Age' in the
__public__ assignment, the rest is reasonably easy to perform.  Publish
your metaclass and start campaigning for it.

As long as you're just yakking about it ain't gonna happen -- become a
metaclass and bytecode expert and you can implement this in Python, or
convince somebody who is such an expert, for which the implementation
should be the job of a couple days tops.


> While I am complaining, a few other peeves ...
> 
> Another thing is I dislike is having to use __ for *every* private
> variable. For *me* __private__ at the top of the class definition code
> would be more elegant. __readonly__ would be another nicety.

That's an even easier job for a custom metaclass with very modest amount
of byecode hacking.  I suggest you start with this one, really truly
VERY easy.  In fact you could probably do it without any actual hacking
on the bytecode itself, just rewriting a few tables of strings in the
code objects of the functions that are the methods of the class.

One impossible task (THAT would require hacking the Python parser and
changing things very deeply) as I already mentioned would be the form
you want for the assignment to __public__ (or similarly to
__private__etc).  Those names are undefined (or worse defined globally)
and to teach Python (and human readers!) that for that one speclal case
of assignment to __public__ (or __private__), THAT one case only,
COMPLETELY different rules apply than ANYWHERE else in Python, well,
it's just as difficult as it is absurd.

I suggest you tackle the 'look ma no quotes!' task last, after
everything else is working, because that one detail is going to take far
longer than everything else put together, even if you're learning about
metaclasses and bytecodes from scratch.

 
> Introducing the above attributes into the language would not likely
> break any existing Python code.

If this peculiar behavior is limited to classes whose metaclass is your
custom RaviSpecial, "not likely" becomes "absolutely impossible", a
great enhancement.  One more reason to implement this in a metaclass.
 
> Just my 2c.

Well make it three cents and do an implementation, if you really care.
Otherwise, it's just words...


Alex


From fumanchu at amor.org  Thu Aug 26 01:56:51 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:56:51 -0700
Subject: A question??
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E7E@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Ishwar Rattan wrote:
> I thought that Python has no concept of reference/pointer
> (probably incorrect assumption). I saw the following piece of code:
> 
> ...
> def run(program, *args):
>     pid = os.fork()
>     if not pid:
>          os.execvp(program, (program,)+args)
> ...
> 
> and call to run as
> 
> run("pyhton", "a.py")
> 
> What is the interpretation of *args (in def run(..)?
> Looks like a reference to me, so, how does one decide when to use
> a reference or not?

http://docs.python.org/ref/function.html

Basically, *args collects any additional positional arguments passed to
the function. So you can call

run("python", "a.py")

...and...

run("top", "d 5", "s")

...with the same function signature. In the second case, args would
equal the tuple ("d 5", "s") within the run() function.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From skullw at sina.com.cn  Sun Aug 22 19:15:00 2004
From: skullw at sina.com.cn (skull)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 19:15:00 -0400
Subject: newsgroup for embeded/extend python ?
Message-ID: <m3brh2kbnv.fsf@sina.com.cn>


Hi, everyone

I wanna know is there any newsgoup(or forums through www) 
specially for embeded/extend python?

thanks in advance

-skull


From len-1 at telus.net  Mon Aug 16 17:11:01 2004
From: len-1 at telus.net (Lenard Lindstrom)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:11:01 GMT
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
References: <mailman.1661.1092519005.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7x7js1i887.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<slrnchug4m.n0d.npat@gray.efault.net> <zn4w2y3g.fsf@telus.net>
	<972ec5bd.0408152037.c50bcee@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <d61q94e7.fsf@telus.net>

firemoth at gmail.com (Timothy Fitz) writes:

> Lenard Lindstrom <len-1 at telus.net> wrote in message news:<zn4w2y3g.fsf at telus.net>...
> > Nick Patavalis <npat at efault.net> writes:
> > 
> > > On 2004-08-14, Paul Rubin <> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > You can't yield across multiple levels of function calls.  That's why
> > > > they're called "simple generators" instead of just "generators".
> > > >
> > > 
> > > For me it would be *tremendously* usefull if one could yield across
> > > multiple levels of function calls. If this was supported, then most
> > > uses of O/S treads could be replaced by generators.
> > > 
> > > Does anyone know if such a feature is planned?
> > > 
> > Having followed the development of Prothon it is my understanding that
> > such a thing is not possible in CPython for two reasons.
[Snip]
> 
> I disagree, it seems to me I could make a pure python based
> implementation with some funky state handling classes and exceptions.
> Granted, it wouldn't look nice (all your 'locals' would be in an
> object, and you'd have to call like tyield())

I should have been clearer. It is not possible with the current generator
function declaration syntax. A new keyword or something would have to be
added to make it work. If a keyword, then the new syntax would not be
backwards compatible with the current. As for doing it in Python,
coroutines can be implemented using threads. So yes it is possible.
But it is not necessary efficient.

Lenard Lindstrom
<len-l at telus.net>


From duncan.booth at invalid.invalid  Tue Aug 10 09:18:05 2004
From: duncan.booth at invalid.invalid (Duncan Booth)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 13:18:05 GMT
Subject: Best pattern/idiom
References: <4117c3d8$1@buckaroo.cs.rit.edu>
	<4edc17eb.0408092039.10958e11@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1442.1092142146.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Xns9541901327BA7duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>

Heiko Wundram <heikowu at ceosg.de> wrote in
news:mailman.1442.1092142146.5135.python-list at python.org: 

> Problem being:
> 
>>>> list(chop([1,2,3,4,5,6],4))
> [(1, 2, 3, 4)]
> 
> If you actually want to get back everything from iterator, better do
> something like:
> 
> def ichop(it,n,rtype=list):
>     it = iter(it)
>     empty = False
>     while not empty:
>         retv = []
>         while not empty and len(retv) < n:
>             try:
>                 retv.append(it.next())
>             except StopIteration:
>                 empty = True
>         if retv:
>             yield rtype(retv)

It depends what you actually want to get if the list isn't a multiple of n. 
The uneven length tuple at the end seems a bit bad, you are probably better 
off with something like this:

>>> def chop(it, n):
	tup = (itertools.chain(iter(it), (None,)*(n-1)),)*n
	return itertools.izip(*tup)

>>> list(chop([1,2,3,4,5,6],4))
[(1, 2, 3, 4), (5, 6, None, None)]

although this still loses your data if n < 1.


From jpeekii at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  9 10:35:56 2004
From: jpeekii at yahoo.com (Oliver Peek)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 07:35:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: berkeley db delete problem?
Message-ID: <20040809143556.24128.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi all,

Probably my fault, I'm opening a Berkeley DB
file, iterating through and deleting keys, well
making an attempt.  I get this error when I try
to delete.

---error
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "./db.py", line 41, in ?
    db.delete()
AttributeError: delete
---end error

Below is a code snippet:
---code
#!/usr/bin/python

import bsddb

db = bsddb.btopen('./test.db', 'r')

rec = db.first()
while rec:
	key, val = rec
	db.delete()
	rec = db.next()

db.close()
---end code

I have full code that opens and goes through and
prints the key and value and opens another db
file and inserts the key/data into that new db
file, but I need to delete the data out of the
master db file once it's been updated in the
smaller ones.

I've also tried db.delete(key) with no luck,
db.del(), db.del(key), db[key]='', and lots of
other silly attempts, but nothing works.

Thanks,
Oliver

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sun Aug  1 20:28:00 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 20:28:00 -0400
Subject: Pygame - Only ONE Font found!?
References: <Xns95369F0F85C5DaskariaddressNonVali@207.35.177.135><mailman.994.1091237691.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Xns9538A6D09A14CaskariaddressNonVali@207.35.177.135>
Message-ID: <cek1qh$77u$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Askari" <askari at addressNonValide.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9538A6D09A14CaskariaddressNonVali at 207.35.177.135...
> "Terry Reedy" <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote in
> news:mailman.994.1091237691.5135.python-list at python.org:
>
> > If you don't get an answer here (pygame is an application of Python,
but
> > not Python itself), try the pygame mail list or
gmane.comp.python.pygame
> > via gmane.org.
>
> "Pygame is a set of Python modules designed for writing games."

I found that line.

> And I'm redirect to group "comp.lang.python" if I need help.

I see that 'Python' is linked to python.org but see no reference to c.l.p
on the pygame page.  If it is there, it would mean help with the language
rather than pygame itself.

> For "gmane.org"... too long for access help...

I have no idea what you mean here.  But anyway, if you cannot bother
yourself to ask on the right forum, why expect anyone else to bother to
answer?

Terry J. Reedy





From jbenson at lowell.edu  Thu Aug 26 21:16:19 2004
From: jbenson at lowell.edu (Jim Benson)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 18:16:19 -0700 (MST)
Subject: A newbie in need....
In-Reply-To: <9c3edc58.0408261609.6640e400@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408261810380.1687-100000@sextans.mesa.lowellnet>

On 26 Aug 2004, Chris Patton wrote:

> Hey everybody. I'm trying to make a program that requires a 2D field
> to run. Besides "curses" or "ncurses", is there a python module that
> will create a graph?
> 
> --Thanks for the help!
> 

Here is the matplotlib link i mentioned in my previous email
as well as a snippet of its introductory statement at the link:

http://matplotlib.sourceforge.net/

 matplotlib is a python 2D plotting library which produces publication 
quality figures in a variety of hardcopy formats (PNG, JPG, PS, SVG) 
and interactive GUI environments (WX, GTK, Tkinter) across platforms. 

Good Luck,

Jim




From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Thu Aug 26 16:24:39 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:24:39 -0700
Subject: vars() and dir()
In-Reply-To: <ac2adf77.0408260448.4e02b5e5@posting.google.com>
References: <ac2adf77.0408260448.4e02b5e5@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <10ishn6dpo53ja4@corp.supernews.com>

Claire wrote:

>hi, 
>i use vars() or dir() to get variables. I use them in a def block, so
>i get variables of that block. How can i get variables from the
>namespace __main__ ?
>I use python in interactive mode and want to have a function to get a
>dictionnary for python types (int, ...) and another for my types (my
>classes). this function will be in my pythonstartup file.
>
>If i use python in interactive mode, is there a main module defined ?
>i don't know how to use namespace __main__ to get information on this
>"global namespace" like i can do with math or another module
>  
>

There is also a globals() function which operates in a manner parallel 
to vars().  Note that vars(), without an argument, is equivalent to 
locals().  Also beware that, while these functions will return a 
dictionary containing the current global/local variables, modifying that 
dictionary may not modify actual variables.  (In general, you're best 
off using them as read-only.)

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From tim.peters at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 23:45:23 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 23:45:23 -0400
Subject: Problem with floating point precision
In-Reply-To: <10i4c1lrvd3rm9b@news.supernews.com>
References: <ec6dce8b.0408170538.1f0211d2@posting.google.com>
	<10i4c1lrvd3rm9b@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <1f7befae040817204564f3c222@mail.gmail.com>

[John Roth]
> ...
> There's a floating decimal package in 2.4 that is intended
> to eventually (in 2.5 maybe?) be the base of a currency
> package. However, that doesn't help today.

It will help in 2.4, though.  Fixed-point decimal is a subset of what
2.4's decimal arithmetic can do, and it's dead easy to do exact
"dollars and cents" calculations using it.  I'm not sure what a
currency package would add on top of it -- maybe add currency markers
to string output, perhaps offer a simplified rounding discipline for
multiplication, not really sure.  The "hard parts" will already be in
2.4.


From chrisdewinN0SPAM at yahoo.com.au  Wed Aug 25 13:12:17 2004
From: chrisdewinN0SPAM at yahoo.com.au (Dfenestr8)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 02:12:17 +0900
Subject: Capturing exceptions?
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.25.17.12.17.521438@yahoo.com.au>

Hi.

What's the easiest way to capture the traceback from an exception, and
write it to a file? Ideally, I'd like to be able to do something like:

>try:
>	main()
>except:
>	write the traceback to a file


From mj-usunto at tkb.pl  Wed Aug 18 10:01:18 2004
From: mj-usunto at tkb.pl (Marcin Jurczuk)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:01:18 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <cfvnfe$o0i$1@korweta.task.gda.pl>

On 2004-08-18, Lucas Raab <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote:
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....
>
>
26 ..today ...a hell ...

-- 
Marcin Jurczuk, NIC-HDL: MJ1679-RIPE


From ville at spammers.com  Wed Aug 18 13:33:13 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 20:33:13 +0300
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
References: <20040817181725194-0400@braeburn.themorgue.org>
Message-ID: <du7oel8l5ba.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Kevin" == Kevin Smith <Kevin.Smith at sas.com> writes:

    Kevin> Bear with me, but I'd like to propose one more syntax that
    Kevin> is simple, easy for newbies to understand, and nowhere near
    Kevin> as powerful as the current PEP's syntax.  However, it
    Kevin> doesn't add incoherent, arbitrary syntax either.

    Kevin> def classmethod foo(x, y, z):
    Kevin>    pass


    Kevin> Once again, no expressions.  I know that this isn't going
    Kevin> to solve everyone's type-checking, metadata, and function
    Kevin> attribute problems, but let's face it, using this PEP for
    Kevin> all of those things just creates ugly syntax.  There must
    Kevin> be more Pythonic ways to do those things in their own PEPs.

Python is not anymore in the blissful stage of being able to
incorporate zillions of features that could be provided by a single
syntactic addition, and relatively comfortably as well. Long
decorators w/ arguments is where the decorator syntax is going to pay
off.

I don't even use static/classmethods, but I can imagine several
frameworks can use parametrized decorators to their advantage.

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Sun Aug  1 21:16:34 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 21:16:34 -0400
Subject: transforming a list into a string
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1041.1091407883.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <pan.2004.07.31.12.27.23.547000@hotmail.com>
	<roy-982174.13075831072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<cegqdu$2fb$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<mailman.1020.1091310303.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-FDE83B.19595731072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1022.1091319366.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011814020.21160-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1032.1091401185.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011957470.22508-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1041.1091407883.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408012055440.13863-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu>

On Sun, 1 Aug 2004, Tim Peters wrote:

> The difference is that list() creates a concrete list object from its
> argument, but there's no such thing as "a concrete iter object". 

You've got me there.

> Iteration is a protocol, not a type.  iter(obj) invokes
> obj.__iter__(),

Only if obj.__iter__() is defined; otherwise it makes something up using 
__getitem__ as appropriate.

> and I don't know of any existing __iter__ implementation that returns an
> object that supports slicing.

True.  Built-in classes (such as list & tupleiterator) would have to be 
extended with this function (trivial if they all subclass from a common 
base class).  As to user classes, I'm proposing this on the assumption 
that a programmer would implement their own __getitem__ (I've been saying 
__getslice__ previously, __getitem__ is what I should be saying) if the 
functionality is so desired, which can be as trivial as setting 
__getitem__=islice, provided islice is extended to accept slice objects.  
Though, this would break __getitem__ in the case of getting a single 
item (I can see where this is heading)...

> The only thing required of __iter__ is that it return an object that
> supports the iteration protocol (meaning an object that supports next()
> and __iter__() methods).  So again, adding the ability to slice too
> would mean requiring more of __iter__ methods -- or changing the
> implementation of iter() to ignore __iter__ methods and make something
> up itself.  It's A Visible Change no matter how you cut it.

You've made your point.  I guess this will just have to go on the "it 
would be neat if it worked this way, but it just doesn't" list for now ;)



From johnfkeeling at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  2 15:52:23 2004
From: johnfkeeling at yahoo.com (John Keeling)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 12:52:23 -0700
Subject: Timing Difference: insert vs. append & reverse
References: <35b736b9.0408020330.53b24ed3@posting.google.com>
	<Xns953983065EEC6duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <35b736b9.0408021152.16e16456@posting.google.com>

Duncan,
> A list is implemented by an array of pointers to the objects it contains.
That explains it.

> If you expected insert to be faster, perhaps you thought that Python used a 
> linked-list implementation. It doesn't do this, 

Yes, that is how I was thinking. It is interesting to see how
functions may perform very differently from how we may initially
expect. I've also noted an approximate two time difference between
"del list[index] and list.pop(index)". I know that they do different
things (the return value from pop), however in many places my code
uses pop and ignores the return value when it would be faster to use
del. I am making changes based on these observations now.
Thanks,
John


From dietz at dls.net  Wed Aug 25 20:51:57 2004
From: dietz at dls.net (Paul F. Dietz)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:51:57 -0500
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.58.0408251722510.568@zaphod.rite-group.com>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.SOL.4.58.0408251722510.568@zaphod.rite-group.com>
Message-ID: <15WdnU2mIJV1rrDcRVn-gQ@dls.net>

Rich Teer wrote:

> I think you're getting confused with the Blue ?yster Cult.
> Don't Fear the Reaper - great song.

A great allegory about garbage collection, wasn't it?

	Paul


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Fri Aug 27 16:53:05 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:53:05 -0700
Subject: tarfile's tar.extractfile() file-like object incompatible with
	pickle.load()?
References: <3e6d6c21.0408261043.264c3a2d@posting.google.com>
	<1093572564.733113@news.commspeed.net>
	<3e6d6c21.0408271000.6007a361@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1093640502.574436@news.commspeed.net>


"Matt Doucleff" <mattduke at ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message
news:3e6d6c21.0408271000.6007a361 at posting.google.com...
> "Tom B." <sbabbitt at commspeed.net> wrote in message
news:<1093572564.733113 at news.commspeed.net>...
> > "Matt Doucleff" <mattduke at ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message
> > news:3e6d6c21.0408261043.264c3a2d at posting.google.com...
> > > Hi everyone!  I must be doing something wrong here :)  I have a
> > > tarball that contains a single file whose contents are a pickled
> > > object.  I would like to unpickle the object directly from the tarball
> > > using the file-like object provided by extractfile().  Attempts to do
> > > this result in EOFError.  However if I first extract to a temporary
> > > file, then unpickle from there, it works.  The below code reproduces
> > > the problem (on my machine at least).  I'm running Python 2.3.4,
> > > manually installed on Debian Woody (original python removed).  Thanks!
> > >
> > > This sample code creates (and then removes) files in the tmp directory
> > > and in the current working directory.
> > >
> > > # demonstrates extractfile/unpickle failure (bug?)
> > >
> > > # pickle a dict to a temp file
> > > # create tar file, add temp file to it, close tar file
> > > # open tar file for reading
> > > # obtain file-like object for pickled file using extractfile()
> > > # attempt to unpickle dict from file-like object
> > > # fails with EOFError exception
> > >
> > > import tarfile
> > > import pickle
> > > import tempfile
> > > import os

Now that I take a closer look at your program it should read,


> > > if __name__ == '__main__':
> > >     try:
> > >         hashtopickle = { 'a' : 1, 'b' : 2 }
> > >
> > >         # pickle to temp file
> > >         (fd, tmpfilename) = tempfile.mkstemp()
> > >         tmpfile = file(tmpfilename,'w+')
> > >         pickle.dump(hashtopickle, tmpfile)
> > >         tmpfile.close()
> > >
> > >         # create tar; add temp file
> > >         tar = tarfile.open('tarpickle.tar', 'w')
> > >         tar.add(tmpfilename, 'pickledhash')
> > >         tar.close()
> > >
> > >         # remove temp file
> > >         os.remove(tmpfilename)
> > >
> > >         # open tarfile for reading, get filelike
> > >         tar = tarfile.open('tarpickle.tar', 'r')
>
> > >         filelike = tar.extractfile('pickledhash')
> > >
> > >         # fails
> > >         hashcopy = pickle.load(filelike)
> > >
> > >     finally:
> > >         # cleanup
> > >         os.remove('tarpickle.tar')
> >
Your opening the tmpfilename in an odd way.

Tom




From ben at benlast.com  Mon Aug 23 04:44:05 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 09:44:05 +0100
Subject: My only complaint about Python
In-Reply-To: <5339b60d.0408230017.655081d9@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPAEAHCFAA.ben@benlast.com>

> From: Paul Boddie
> Sent: 23 August 2004 09:17
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Re: My only complaint about Python

> "Ben Last" <ben at benlast.com> wrote in message
> news:<mailman.2100.1093081354.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> > What's needed (in my extremely humble opinion) is a way to
> build what I need
> > to, using a compiler suite that I can go and get without having
> to spend any
> > money.  Philosophy is fine, but I dislike having an FSF agenda
> pushed on me
> > as much as I dislike a Redmond agenda.  I just want to get on
> with my job
> > (or in this case, pursue my own interests).

Paul; I appreciate your sentiments, and your ability to articulate them, but
I think it would have more relevance and impact if you responded to what I
said, rather than attribute to me statements that I have not actually made.
If you feel like making the sort of reasoned, intellectual and considered
response that I know you are capable of, being David's brother, then I'd pay
attention.  I especially dislike being tarred with the Microsoft-apologist
brush, having suffered in the past in my business career from recommending
Linux against those propounding proprietary systems.

I'm entirely content for Richard Stallman to continue his campaign, and also
entirely relaxed about Microsoft continuing theirs.  What I do not like is
being caught in the crossfire between the two camps and being obliged by
others to fall in with one side or the other.  I believe that "if you're not
part of the solution, you're part of the problem" attitude (of which I do
not accuse you, Paul), is not useful.

I note that Guido, as quoted in
http://slashdot.org/interviews/01/04/20/1455252.shtml states: "I don't
personally care any more whether Python will ever be GPL-compatible -- I'm
just trying to do the FSF a favor because they like to use Python. With all
the grief they're giving me, I wonder why I should be bothered any more."
He goes on to say "Anyway, I removed the acceptance ceremony from the 2.1
license, in the hope that this would satisfy the FSF. Unfortunately, the
FSF's response to the 2.1 license (see above) seems to suggest that they
have changed their position once again, and are now requesting other changes
in the license. I'm very, very tired of this, so on to the next question!"
I too have been though the GPL-argument-mill with company lawyer in the
past.  I'm tired of it.  I have work to do.

I stand or fall in what I do by the recommendations I make.  Currently I'm
running two very diverse and business-critial projects.  Both are based
heavily on Python, Linux and MySQL, because I consider those solutions to
provide us with the best flexibility, fitness-for-purpose and value for
money.  Those are the criteria I used and by which I stand.  If I
recommended products because of any ideological agenda I'd deserve to lose
business.  I choose the tools which best fit the job.  In these cases I've
chosen the best tools of which I'm aware.  One of them is Python; I expect
it to continue to be amongst the best for many years.

If you wish to attack my beliefs, fine, but do it on the basis of what I
said, not what you find it convenient to assume that I said, or extensions
of my statements to ridiculous extremes.  A reductio ad absurdam argument is
no argument.

I had the greatest respect for your brother when I worked with him, and for
some of the things you and/or he have contributed to the Python world.  I'm
disappointed that you seem inclined to attack me in this way.

best regards,
ben



From skip at pobox.com  Tue Aug 10 12:40:52 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 11:40:52 -0500
Subject: decorators vs GIL
In-Reply-To: <0bidnfbR2_PZOIjcRVn-pA@giganews.com>
References: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>
	<mailman.1345.1091924284.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<8YudnZoJ4NdLEYjcRVn-jA@speakeasy.net>
	<0bidnfbR2_PZOIjcRVn-pA@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <16664.64148.998046.163093@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Istvan> I think one of the latent messages of this thread was that
    Istvan> adding new "gratuitous" features to the core language is a bad
    Istvan> thing.

    Istvan> Just because someone sits down and codes it does not mean it
    Istvan> should be added to the language. Features are forever, you
    Istvan> cannot just can't eliminate them in the next version.

    ...

    Istvan> Python is said to come with the batteries included, then
    Istvan> that's where new features should go, to the battery level
    Istvan> not into the wiring.

The notion of decorated functions has been in Python since (at least)
staticmethod and classmethod were added as builtins.  At that time it was
presumed some syntax would be developed in the future to make their use less
clunky (few people like that the "declaration" of a static method occurs at
the end of its body) if it turned out they were useful.  They have been
found to be useful.  We are now in the throes of the effort to define a
suitable syntax for such a construct.

Decorators are not theorhetical features with no proven use.  They are used
today and will likely be used more widely once it is easier to do so.

Skip


From fumanchu at amor.org  Wed Aug 25 10:59:00 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 07:59:00 -0700
Subject: J2 hard-line on "using"
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E6D@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

(hope you don't mind me cc'ing the list, but this is an important point
for the community)

Paul Moore wrote:
> What should people do
> if they don't really care between @ and J2, and would rather Guido
> just decided and put an end to things?

Excellent point, and something Guido hinted at earlier but I didn't
catch. For those who don't prefer one over the other, I've added an
explicit "Abstentions" list, which denies the "vocal minority" better
than no signature would.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From jess.austin at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 16:53:58 2004
From: jess.austin at gmail.com (Jess Austin)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 13:53:58 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WE
	DONE?
References: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<Xns954E696D4D95Darienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.29>
Message-ID: <b8ad139e.0408241253.7d807f42@posting.google.com>

Arien Malec <arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE> wrote in message news:<Xns954E696D4D95Darienmalecyahoocom at 64.164.98.29>...
> "Paul McGuire" <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> wrote in
> news:pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720 at fe1.texas.rr.com: 
> > Please start giving some thought to what the 'decorate' keyword should
> > be. If we can get/keep this selection to a manageable list, then we
> > should have another multivote some time next week.
> 
> "transform:"
> 
> In general:
> 
> Something that is either semantic neutral, or makes semantics explicit.

A verb of neutral meaning, like "transform", seems more likely to
cause difficulty with old code.  I would expect there to be hundreds
of Python functions in use right now with the name "transform",
because that verb encompasses many things that functions often do.  A
function may be called at any level of indentation, and there would be
no way for the parser to distinguish a function call from a
decoration.  This same objection can be voiced about any keyword, and
is the reason why this option would definitely entail an "from
__future__ import decorators", but many words would conflict less than
"transform".

Another objection that has been raised about my current favorite,
"decorate", is that at 8 characters it's too long.  9 characters will
also be considered too long by a number of people.

The natural short version of "decorate" would be "dec" and there is
sort of a natural parallelism with "def" there.  I hesitate to
nominate it because it _feels_ like a word that at least ten people on
c.l.py will detest.

Maybe "decor"?  It isn't any longer than "class", and I think we can
predict it will be typed less than 1/10 as often.  But this reasoning
could also excuse "decorate", so I'll stick with that.  I'm also open
to any transitive verb that can be designated to mean _exactly_ what
"decorate" means now.

later,
Jess


From dropthis_fanmail at micah-wedemeyer.net  Wed Aug 25 13:56:41 2004
From: dropthis_fanmail at micah-wedemeyer.net (Micah)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:56:41 -0400
Subject: using windows defaults for executing/examining files
Message-ID: <cgijsq$38a$1@news-int2.gatech.edu>

Is there an os module call to request that Windows handle a specific file
using the default handler?  For example, if I pass it a .txt file it opens
notepad but if I pass a .wav file it opens Windows Media Player.

Any ideas?

-- 
=================================
Micah Z. Wedemeyer
Research Scientist I, ELSYS
Georgia Tech Research Institute
Atlanta, GA 30332
678.428.1283
=================================




From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Tue Aug 10 00:13:47 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 21:13:47 -0700
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
	<cf8trp$lnp$1@nic.grnet.gr>
	<a22gh0dsb94ffqqjqhb3igufi65ap7pg4d@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <pkulu1-74f.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

Fred wrote:
> No problem. I just didn't know most of the GUI tools for Python use
> cross-platform widget sets like wxWidgets, so expected to just start
> playing without having to learn about this additional layer.

You may want to look at my dotamatic project at
http://dotamatic.sourceforge.net/

It is written in Python using the wxPython/wxWidgets toolkit.
It does drawing, clipboard and printing as well as the other
good things an application should have such as saving
configuration settings and online help.

You will also see the downloads for Windows, Linux and Mac.
End users simply see what looks like a normal setup and
a normal program.  They never know or need to know that
there is Python involved.

If you are concerned with these kind of issues, you may
also find part of the presentation I gave at baypiggies
in July interesting.

  http://bitpim.org/papers/baypiggies

Slides 11 thru 23 are the most appropriate but I expect
you will find all the others interesting as well :-)

Roger 




From cjw at sympatico.ca  Wed Aug 25 08:11:21 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:11:21 -0400
Subject: python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
In-Reply-To: <KlPWc.18779$v86.747@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <mailman.2274.1093330945.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<KlPWc.18779$v86.747@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Bl%Wc.15327$_H5.498434@news20.bellglobal.com>

Paul McGuire wrote:
> "Brett Cannon" <bac at OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote in message
> news:mailman.2274.1093330945.5135.python-list at python.org...
> 
[snip]
> "Well, then allow me to retort."
> 
> Up until PyCon in June, Guido was publicly leaning toward a C1-flavor of
> decorator syntax.  Apparently, there was sufficient furor by some audience
> members (not to quibble whether or not this group was in fact representative
> of all Python users) that Guido dropped back from it.  Sometime in June,
> @decorator seemed to drop from the sky - it was not even one of the top 2
> that GvR had in his keynote presentation - and by late July, it was suddenly
> to be found in the newly released 2.4a2.
> 
My feeling is that Guido was right the first time.  One of C1 or C2 is 
the better way to go.

Why? There is a natural hierarchy.  We do not define methods before the 
class signature is given. A subclass is defined after the class. A break 
is specified within the flow control being broken. We don't refer to a 
function until after is is declared.

In the case of a 'decorator', it is better to identify the thing being 
modified, annotated or whatever before specifying the modification, 
annotation etc.  The exception to this would arise if the 'decoration' 
were to apply to a group of functions or methods, but this is not being 
proposed.

Brett Cameron and Anthony Baxter have pointed out that PEP 318 has been 
on the table for a while.  That's true, perhaps I didn't read it 
carefully enough, but my initial impression was that the PEP was 
concerned with tarting up a function.

It wasn't until I saw Dan Bishop's memoize that I realized the full 
import.  I tried it with his Fibonacci example and found that it offered 
a significant speed improvement over both recursion and the iterative 
solution.

Like many others, I fund the intrusion of a Perlish symbol into Python 
to be surprising.

Thus, to sum up, Guido was right, C1 or C2 would be better than what has 
been implemented in either the current alpha version or Robert Brewer's 
proposal.

Colin W.



From cjw at sympatico.ca  Fri Aug 20 19:11:04 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:11:04 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <r_idncc3e9dtRbncRVn-sQ@powergate.ca>
References: <mailman.1963.1092927903.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<r_idncc3e9dtRbncRVn-sQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <8yvVc.28188$ZI1.1123942@news20.bellglobal.com>



Peter Hansen wrote:
> brianc at temple.edu wrote:
> 
>> -Started doing HTML for school projects in 9th grade. -Program my 
>> TI-82 (basic?) to help me cheat in classes. --Failed 10th grade and 
>> dropped out of high school. 
> 
> 
> So... you didn't program it correctly?  <wink>
> 
>> -That didn't scale well enough for the large datasets I was
>> using, started using ZOPE. (If you live in MD, check this out,
>>   I designed/wrote the entire thing: www.marylandlantax.org)
> 
> 
> Apparently should be http://www.marylandlandtax.org/ (note extra "d").
> 
> Cheers, :-)
> -Peter
Thanks - now completely off topic:

The site points to a weakness of the scheme.  It says "A new public 
works project may make adjacent land go up considerably in value. With a 
tax on land values, the tax on adjacent land goes up. The new public 
improvements are paid for by those most benefited by the new public 
improvements.".  Certainly the neighbouring properties go up in value, 
but that value is only realized when the property is sold.  Do the 
higher taxes get deferred until sale time?

Colin W.



From cygnus at cprogrammer.org  Tue Aug 24 23:44:26 2004
From: cygnus at cprogrammer.org (Jonathan Daugherty)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:44:26 -0700
Subject: Readline module
Message-ID: <20040825034426.GA31869@vulcan.cprogrammer.org>

Hello all,

I've read some posts here talking about the fact that the 'readline'
module packaged with python is only good for augmenting the behavior
of the interactive interpreter.

Can anyone recommend a readline-style alternative for building an
app with an interactive prompt (on Linux, python 2.3)?

-- 
  Jonathan Daugherty
  http://www.cprogrammer.org


From donn at u.washington.edu  Mon Aug 30 18:38:58 2004
From: donn at u.washington.edu (Donn Cave)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 15:38:58 -0700
Subject: [IronPython] Jim Hugunin's web log.
References: <mailman.2627.1093893089.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<413397CA.8090209@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <donn-F22B2C.15385830082004@gnus01.u.washington.edu>

In article <413397CA.8090209 at v.loewis.de>,
 "Martin v. Lowis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:

> David Wilson wrote:
> > Other random thoughts: my experiences of the Python community versus, 
> > eg., the perl community make me believe that Pythonistas are generally 
> > more accepting of commercial solutions than their open source weenie 
> > perl counterparts (*duck*). 
> 
> I don't think this is an accurate description. Instead, Python is not
> tied so much in Unix as Perl is (IMO). It is not Python's philosophy
> to make all platforms look alike, but rather to expose all features of
> a platform to the Python programmer - whether this is /dev/tty on Unix
> or the registry on Windows. For features where it makes sense, a common
> interface is established; other features are by nature restricted to
> a single platform.
> 
> As a result of that philosophy, people are often tempted to port Python
> to "strange" platforms (be that Mac OS 9, BeOS, VMS, or the JVM). They
> then found that Python maintainers where open to changes resulting from
> these ports as long no harm was done to Python "proper" (laissez-faire);
> this continues to encourage people to experiment with the language, and
> with various platforms.

I'll go along with that, it's sure a positive factor for me -
sort of like the NetBSD of programming languages.  And to my
way of thinking it's essentially an open source phenomenon.
Python does generally get there before Perl, but it also gets
there before ... Smalltalk? Mathematica?  Kind of stumped for
closed source Python competitors.  Perl has its own problems
(as does Tcl:  "Tk".)  I would propose GNU C as an example of
open source software that manages to take root in strange soil.
Written partly by Stallman himself if I remember right.

It might be true that the Python community is relatively free
of stridently ideological open source advocacy, but if Python
had not been open source, none of us would have ever heard of it.
Whether or not it makes sense for all software to be open source,
when it comes to "middle ware" like compilers and interpreters
it makes an awful lot of sense.

   Donn Cave, donn at u.washington.edu

PS: Yes I know there has been an open source Smalltalk for years,
    but for a long time it seemed like Smalltalk was dominated
    by commercial, closed source implementations, and GNU Smalltalk
    was a footnote.  At that time it seemed that that language
    had some promising traction in business applications, and I
    guess it's a miracle there's no Microsoft Visual Smalltalk.
    Meanwhile, Smalltalk hasn't exactly taken over the world, and
    Python has emerged from its relative obscurity at the time.


From alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 16 18:37:21 2004
From: alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 15:37:21 -0700
Subject: how to display unicode in a Label in Tkinter
References: <8f17f4bc.0408151819.c06a79e@posting.google.com>
	<cfpop0$jlt$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <8f17f4bc.0408161437.2f557935@posting.google.com>

Eric Brunel <eric_brunel at despammed.com> wrote in message news:<cfpop0$jlt$1 at news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>...
> Ali wrote:
> > I was wondering how one would go about displaying unicode in a Label
> > object in a Tkinter window. I am trying to display text in another
> > language. Please help.
> 
> Just put it in a Unicode string or in a raw string encoded in UTF-8 and you 
> should be going:
> 
>  >>> from Tkinter import *
>  >>> root = Tk()
>  >>> s = '????: ?a marche!'
>  >>> u = unicode(s, 'iso8859-1')
>  >>> Label(root, text=u).pack()
> 
> (The code above supposes your default encoding is iso8859-1, a.k.a latin-1; 
> otherwise, you can do: s = '\xe0\xe9\xe8\xf9: \xe7a marche!')
> 
> HTH

So how I write in Arabic?


From http  Wed Aug 18 15:31:12 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 12:31:12 -0700
Subject: Embedding Python in Python
References: <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
	<mailman.1890.1092854122.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<pan.2004.08.18.19.56.03.842836@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
Message-ID: <7x7jrwkzun.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Robey Holderith <robey at slash_dev_slash_random.org> writes:
> Would this be secure?

No.

> Paul, what's your take on this?

Don't count on it.


From pete at fenelon.com  Thu Aug 26 14:25:42 2004
From: pete at fenelon.com (Pete Fenelon)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 19:25:42 +0100
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<HvadnUsZ7IAwc7DcRVn-sQ@megapath.net>
Message-ID: <6v9lgc.9i2.ln@fenelon.com>

In alt.folklore.computers R Baumann <rynt at 9yahoo.com> wrote:
> In this context --- This is the STUPIDEST thing I've ever heard.  What a
> maroon!  What a Trollup!
> 

He doesn't quite win, there's one regular afc troll who narrowly edges
him out... but I won't mention his name because that tends to invoke
him. ;)

pete
-- 
pete at fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas"


From noone at here.com  Wed Aug 18 22:50:41 2004
From: noone at here.com (M. Clift)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 03:50:41 +0100
Subject: that should of course read list of unknown length : )
References: <cg1494$lvr$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <cg14gc$d4u$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>


"M. Clift" <noone at here.com> wrote in message
news:cg1494$lvr$1 at news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Hi All,
>
> I have a list of varying length. Would someone know the way to get the
last
> two values for this? I can see how this is done with a list that I know
the
> length of, but not one thats generated by user input.
>
> Thanks for any help
>
>




From jaydonnell at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 18 14:17:38 2004
From: jaydonnell at yahoo.com (Jay Donnell)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 11:17:38 -0700
Subject: can tarfile maintain directory structure?
References: <a6fdfd6b.0408171508.65d670d0@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1838.1092794836.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<pan.2004.08.18.09.01.48.36081@gustaebel.de>
Message-ID: <a6fdfd6b.0408181017.3d4f9820@posting.google.com>

> import tarfile
> 
> tar = tarfile.open(filename, "w:gz")
> tar.add(directory)
> tar.close()
> 
> The add() method is recursive by default. More information and examples
> here: http://docs.python.org/lib/module-tarfile.html

That doesn't maintain the directory structure. When you untar it all
the files are in the base directory (when I untar it on windows with
winzip).

I haven't tried jeff's suggestion yet, but I'll let ya'll know how
that goes.


From bokr at oz.net  Tue Aug 10 12:58:44 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 16:58:44 GMT
Subject: Maybe, just maybe @decorator syntax is ok after all
References: <du7n017ni6o.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>
	<b840abf4.0408080422.44fcf41c@posting.google.com>
	<b840abf4.0408090607.722880a2@posting.google.com>
	<cf87jt$bra$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<b840abf4.0408100218.59bec5ad@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfaus4$3cm$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

On 10 Aug 2004 03:18:54 -0700, artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR) wrote:

>bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter) wrote in message news:<cf87jt$bra$0$216.39.172.122 at theriver.com>...
>> On 9 Aug 2004 07:07:54 -0700, artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR) wrote:
>> <snip>
>> >So the order is reverse, which breaks my previous interpretation. Oh, well...
>> >
>> I think your example is not from the PEP. What "spec" are you citing?
>
>http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/ref/function.html

I guess that should be fixed. IIUC. Per BDFL:

    http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047521.html

I still think a di-glyph with an opening paren would give the feel of
the nesting effect (inner before outer) better than @ -- e.g.,

    decofunexpr1(=
    decofunexpr2(=
    def foo(): pass

for effect foo = decofunexpr1(decofunexpr2(foo))

(I started with '(:' but tools are sensitive to ':' I guess, so above uses '(='

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From eric_brunel at despammed.com  Mon Aug 16 03:54:48 2004
From: eric_brunel at despammed.com (Eric Brunel)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:54:48 +0200
Subject: how to display unicode in a Label in Tkinter
References: <8f17f4bc.0408151819.c06a79e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfpop0$jlt$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>

Ali wrote:
> I was wondering how one would go about displaying unicode in a Label
> object in a Tkinter window. I am trying to display text in another
> language. Please help.

Just put it in a Unicode string or in a raw string encoded in UTF-8 and you 
should be going:

 >>> from Tkinter import *
 >>> root = Tk()
 >>> s = '????: ?a marche!'
 >>> u = unicode(s, 'iso8859-1')
 >>> Label(root, text=u).pack()

(The code above supposes your default encoding is iso8859-1, a.k.a latin-1; 
otherwise, you can do: s = '\xe0\xe9\xe8\xf9: \xe7a marche!')

HTH
-- 
- Eric Brunel <eric (underscore) brunel (at) despammed (dot) com> -
PragmaDev : Real Time Software Development Tools - http://www.pragmadev.com



From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 30 03:05:09 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:05:09 +0200
Subject: Iteration over Lists and Strings
References: <cUSXc.56768$xi6.42946@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<mailman.2552.1093664310.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgpa73$oa5$1@news-reader2.wanadoo.fr>
	<1gj80xs.1cfownoqz4m9N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<5M4Yc.326126$a24.276550@attbi_s03>
Message-ID: <1gja55y.11yjoos1v7vn58N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Brent W. Hughes <brent.hughes at comcast.net> wrote:
   ...
> > SQUARE of len(sequence) -- a LOT, for long sequences,  enumerate itself
> > takes constant time, and looping over all items that enumerate yields
> > takes time proportional to the number of items (costant time per item).
   ...
> Did you say enumerate(seq) takes constant time?  I would have thought it was
> proportional to len(seq).

Please look carefully at my quoted text:
    the call to enumerate(seq) itself takes constant time
    looping over [N items] takes O(N)
In particular, looping over O(len(seq)) items does take O(len(seq)),
whether you call enumerate somewhere or not

The distinction matters, because some loops on enumerate(seq) may be
able to bail out earlier, which may reduce their big-O behavior.  A
trivial example:
    for i, item in enumerate(seq):
        if i >= 3: break
        print item
This prints the first few items of seq, but no more than three of them
in any case; and it takes O(1), constant time (assuming that so do
iter(seq)'s next(), and str(item) too) -- no matter how long seq is.


Don't take this for granted, because it was not necessarily true before
Python refined its looping protocol.  Consider two recipes  for
enumerate that you'll find in the Cookbook's first edition...:

[a]

class enumerate:
    def __init__(self, seq):
         self.seq = seq
    def __getitem__(self, i):
         return i, self.seq[i]

[b]

def enumerate(seq): return zip(xrange(sys.maxint), seq)

Recipe [a] does satisfy the same big-O performance constraints as
today's enumerate ([a] is less general than today's enumerate, of
course, because at that time the looping protocol did require the
ability to index into the object, so [a] requires that from seq).  But
recipe [b] does not -- just calling enumerate in this version is O(N) in
both time and space.  ((Nevertheless, [b] was faster than [a] in many
practically important cases, which is why I presented it anyway;-)).


Alex


From john at grulic.org.ar  Sat Aug 21 13:55:47 2004
From: john at grulic.org.ar (John Lenton)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:55:47 -0300
Subject: Decorator keyword options - brainstorming
In-Reply-To: <W%uVc.5378$Jn5.2819@fe1.texas.rr.com>
References: <7knVc.4599$Jn5.3074@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<cg5150$9if$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<HioVc.4613$Jn5.3188@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<W%uVc.5378$Jn5.2819@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20040821175546.GA6008@grulic.org.ar>

On Fri, Aug 20, 2004 at 10:34:30PM +0000, Paul McGuire wrote:
> Some other ideas:
> 
> imbue
> endow
> bestow
> embellish
> extend
> accum
> glom
> confer

why not 'pies', and then everybody's happy?

-- 
John Lenton (john at grulic.org.ar) -- Random fortune:
Don't relax!  It's only your tension that's holding you together.
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From josh at chatgris.com  Wed Aug  4 13:36:32 2004
From: josh at chatgris.com (Joshua Moore-Oliva)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 13:36:32 -0400
Subject: asyncore, asynchat and threads
In-Reply-To: <WcmdnQrlEdLXT43cRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
References: <mailman.1108.1091583968.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<mailman.1109.1091585320.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<WcmdnQrlEdLXT43cRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <200408041336.33683.josh@chatgris.com>

Well, I took at look at twisted..  and it seems pretty scary ;)

What I've done though is made some very minor changes to asyncore and asynchat, and now it appears to be threadsafe//more controllable.

If all works out well for me I'll submit the patch to python, since it's fully backwards compatbile with the old behaviour.

Thanks for the help

Joshua Moore-Oliva

On August 4, 2004 08:10 am, Peter Hansen wrote:
> Joshua Moore-Oliva wrote:
> 
> > I have to not return any data until there is data to 
>  > return for that specific connection.  If there is some
>  > way to send data down a asynchat
> > socket from another thread (thread-safely), or to 
>  > somehow wake up an asynchat class, that would be great.
> 
> It's been years since I used asyncore (I find Twisted much
> simpler to use) but at least in theory such a thing is
> possible.  Twisted has a callFromThread() method that can
> be used to get a callback in another thread to be called
> from the "reactor" (the equivalent of the asyncore core
> loop), which would do what you want.  Asyncore might have
> similar facilities.
> 
> I don't _fully_ grasp what you are doing, and I don't work
> well without pictures in such cases (got a whiteboard handy?
> draw a picture and send me a digital photo :-), but so
> far it doesn't sound like you have anything approaching
> unusual, compared to many other applications I've seen doing
> the sorts of things yours seems to be doing.
> 
> -Peter


From skip at pobox.com  Tue Aug 10 13:03:35 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:03:35 -0500
Subject: pep-318 questions
In-Reply-To: <HBF.20040808xui@bombur.uio.no>
References: <HBF.20040808xui@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <16664.65511.523539.817537@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Hallvard> I don't understand some of the arguments in pep-318 (version
    Hallvard> 1.19), or what the current syntax has to do with some of the
    Hallvard> design goals mentioned there.  Could someone explain?

The PEP is known to be pretty far out-of-date with both the current patch
and current thinking.  Anthony Baxter and I are the people who have most
recently edited it, but we are both short on time.  I was out of town for
three days and returned to more than a thousand Python-related mails, most
dealing with PEP 318.  I'm still digging out from that avalanche and have
yet to even look at the text of the PEP for several days, let alone
incorporate the wiki page or any of the comments here or in python-dev into
the text.

    >> Design Goals
    >> 
    >> The new syntax should
    >> (...)
    >> make it obvious what is happening; at the very least it should be
    >> obvious that new users can safely ignore it when writing their own
    >> code

    Hallvard> Huh?  The current no-keyword, no-indentation syntax seems as
    Hallvard> far removed from "obvious" as one could get for Python.

I think it's fairly well understood at this point that "obvious" is both in
the eye of the beholder and difficult to achieve (there's not a large body
of similar features in enough other languages that most programmers will
have had experience with).  Thankfully, it says "should" instead of
"must". ;-)

    Hallvard> As for obvious that new users need not use it, it seems pretty
    Hallvard> hard to _avoid_ meeting that goal.  Is it just included for
    Hallvard> completeness, or does it mean something more than I see in the
    Hallvard> statement?

I can take it out if you like. ;-)

I think the biggest single requirement has to be that any solution adopted
must be easier to use than the current decorate-after-body scheme:

    def func(a, b):
        blah
        blah
        ... 75 more lines ...
        blah
        return blah
    func = staticmethod(func)

Thankfully, all proposals I've seen satisfy that requirement.

    Hallvard> The current syntax seems like the clear loser here too: No
    Hallvard> whitespace above the function name.  Not too bad with a single
    Hallvard> decorator, but several is a problem. 

There's no requirement that you smash them all together.  This is valid with
the current patch:

    @ a

    # comment
    # comment
    # comment
    # comment
    @ b


    def func(*args, **kwds):
        ...

    Hallvard> Anyway, to me, decorator after the def's ':' seems like the
    Hallvard> clear winner on the "easy to scan" point, decorator before ':'
    Hallvard> might possibly be #2 (unsure here - it's "theoretically right"
    Hallvard> but some posted examples look ugly), and a statement with
    Hallvard> indentation in front of the def #3.  (Could indent just the
    Hallvard> decorators like the 'using' suggestion in the PEP, see below.)

I think Guido pronounced on this over the weekend.  He stated that
decorators don't belong indented with the code, even at the beginning.  In
fact, he commented that in retrospect he feels that doc strings belong
outside the function as well.  (Of course, that would present a practical
conflict between a module's doc string and that of the first executable code
in the module file should it happen to be a function definition.  But I
digress...)

    >> Finally, it would require the introduction of a new keyword.

    Hallvard> Actually, I'm wondering about that too.  

Nobody has so far been able to come up with a single keyword that seems to
connote "this is a decorator function that is to be applied to the next
function definition".

Skip


From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Aug 17 08:34:34 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:34:34 +0200
Subject: Best programming language
References: <mailman.1718.1092639914.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cfpqlf$7sv$1@news.onet.pl>
	<mailman.1723.1092650117.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<873c2ndizt.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>
	<cfsqfu$co3$1@news.onet.pl>
	<mailman.1787.1092743214.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cfsu0q$ls1$06$1@news.t-online.com>

Andrew Durdin wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:35:26 +0200, lopex <lopexx at autograf.pl> wrote:
>> 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de wrote:
>> >
>> > the best language is of course Scheme
>> 
>> Another flamewar ?
>> should I claim Ruby is.. ?
> 
> The obvious answer, of course, is that on the newsgroup/mailing list
> for language X, define "best programming language" to be X. It saves a
> lot of combustion :)

http://dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/

suggests that between Befunge and BETA there is space for "Best" waiting to
be filled by an audacious developer. Good name for Python 3.0, maybe...

Peter



From arambo314 at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 18 17:44:32 2004
From: arambo314 at hotmail.com (Arthur Rambo)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 14:44:32 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <533e1e03.0408181344.4391a3c6@posting.google.com>

The answer to the question about the Universe and Everything
incremented by one.

43

Started programming at 15 with the TI-59 (Texas Instruments), than
Basic on the TRS-80, Pascal on the Apple II-e and IBM PC, Lisp on the
Macintosh, and finally *Python* (the best language I've ever seen for
the kind of things I'm doing) on the IBM PC.

"Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<jQHUc.1529$2L3.505 at newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....


From __peter__ at web.de  Fri Aug 27 02:36:08 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 08:36:08 +0200
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgmkoo$t5r$07$1@news.t-online.com>

For J2

Peter Otten

Though I don't like "using".



From dperl at rogers.com  Fri Aug 27 13:15:49 2004
From: dperl at rogers.com (Dan Perl)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:15:49 GMT
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
Message-ID: <9%JXc.79851$pTn.63106@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>

My bad.  Right after posting the message I found the 'Index of Python
Enhancement Proposals (PEPs)'
and there is PEP 273, 'Import Modules from Zip Archives', submitted by
James C. Ahlstrom.  Thank you, Jim!  And there are even two implementations
already.

Dan

"Dan Perl" <dperl at rogers.com> wrote in message
news:2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490 at news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> Here is a python feature that I would like: to be able to import modules
> from an archive like the jar files in Java.  Maybe a regular tar file?
> Maybe a python specific file type, let's call it a 'par' file?
>
> It would be useful in packaging an python library.  Sure, there's always
the
> python packages, but a single file instead of a whole directory tree would
> be more convenient.  I am particularly interested because I am working on
a
> framework/toolkit and I am using a configuration divided into several
> modules.  It would be nice to be able to save configurations (combinations
> of several modules) into single archive files and then switch between
> configurations by pointing to one such archive file.
>
> I am quite new to python so I should ask first whether there is already
> something like that, although I did a search already.  Or maybe such a
> feature has already been discussed somewhere?  If this is an original
idea,
> how can I propose it for future releases?
>
> Dan Perl
> (yes, I'm Mr. Perl, but I'm using Python, after all Perl is not my middle
> name, it's my last name)
>
>




From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sat Aug 21 23:43:08 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 23:43:08 -0400
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>

In article <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129 at posting.google.com>,
Neuruss <luismg at gmx.net> wrote:
>
>It seems there are quite a few projects aimed to improve Python's
>speed and, therefore, eliminate its main limitation for mainstream
>acceptance.

What makes you think speed is Python's primary limitation for mainstream
acceptance?
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From jbperez808 at wahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 07:15:06 2004
From: jbperez808 at wahoo.com (Jon Perez)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:15:06 +0800
Subject: Why isn't XUL more popular?
In-Reply-To: <cg4jht$bh9$03$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <cg1sd0$dgp1@ripley.netscape.com>
	<cg200t$mtp$02$1@news.t-online.com>
	<cg2tn2$sh52@ripley.netscape.com>
	<cg4jht$bh9$03$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <2om4a3Fc4p8rU1@uni-berlin.de>

Daniel Kirsch wrote:

> Jon Perez wrote:
> 
> Of course, that's the DOM API. JavaScript only implements it. But what's 
> painfull about programming DOM? Once you get it (and easily extended it 
> thanks to Mozilla's proper implementation), it's pretty logical and 
> powerfull.

I find DOM to be unnecessarily verbose.  It looks very much like a
bloated design-by-a-committee rather than a lean, mean spec designed by a
few sharp minds.  It takes way too many calls to do something simple
and the proper calls to use are non-obvious to a beginner.  It is really
not that hard to imagine having a simpler API for manipulating XML.

I have been doing extensive DOM work using Javascript for many years
now and while I'm quite deep into DOM (For example, I have developed a
technique to dynamically load/modify any part of a webpage from a remote
data source without reloading the entire page.  A much tougher task than
you might think owing to Javascript/DOM API deficiencies and hence the need
for 'voodoo' techniques), I must say I have never grown to love this API.

Among the many XML-manipulation libraries available for Python are two
or three DOM implentations.  Despite my long experience with DOM under
Javascript, I shun the DOM ones and instead use Fredrik Lundh's way more
pythonic(*) ElementTree... waaaay easier to deal with.  Too bad it or a
similar API is not available for doing DHTML. :-(


(*) 'pythonic' is roughly translated as meaning quick to learn (one
sitting), easy to use (e.g. small, easy-to-remember API) and powerful
at the same time.



From dbickett at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 09:25:16 2004
From: dbickett at gmail.com (Beeyah)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 06:25:16 -0700
Subject: Time-date as an integer
References: <mailman.2271.1093328889.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1d6cdae3.0408240525.236249e8@posting.google.com>

Charles Hixson <charleshixsn at earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<mailman.2271.1093328889.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> This is a concept, not a finished program, and an extract from a class 
> at that...so forgive any illegalities, but:
> import    datetime;
>   def    calcNodeId(self):
>     t    =    datetime.utcnow()
>     val    =    t.year *    133920000000    +          #    12 months
>                     t.month    *    11160000000    +    #    31 days
>                     t.hour    *    3600000000    +         #    60 minutes
>                     t.minute    *    60000000    +         #    60 seconds
>                     t.second    *    1000000    +    t.microsecond
>     if    val <=    self._dTime:
>       val    =    self._dTime + 1
>     self._dTime    =    val
>     return    val
> 
> This is the best that I've been able to come up with in getting a 
> date-time as an integer.  It feels like one of the time or date 
> libraries should have a better solution, but if so, I haven't found it.  
> Can anyone suggest a better approach?

Your indentation is... interesting. Have you considered timestamps?


From jjl at pobox.com  Tue Aug 17 17:30:25 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 22:30:25 +0100
Subject: Windows URL protocol handler in python?
References: <cfq0ce$i0r@odak26.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <657hsb9q.fsf@pobox.com>

"john.burton at jbmail.com" <john.burton at jbmail.com> writes:

> Is there a way to make a handler in python presumably using the win32
> extensions to handle URLS of a specific type when they are given to
> windows?
> 
> For example if I want to handle
> myprotocol://server/id
> using my own python program?
> Any suggestions or references would be appreciated.

Maybe pywin32 can do it.  Probably ctypes can do it.

Read up on COM monikers (eg. Essential COM by Don Box).


John


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Tue Aug 17 16:22:57 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 22:22:57 +0200
Subject: flex: plex?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408172148210.3812-100000@kleigh.nl>


Hi,

I am looking for a Python equivalent of Flex. After some
browsing, it seems that Plex is my best bet, but I would like to
hear suggestions before I dive in.

I have been using Flex a lot in combination with C programming.
I never use Yacc (or Bison), though Flex and Yacc are supposed
to be used together. But I found Yacc too cumbersome, and
unnecessary. Yacc is about context-free grammars, nice if you
like to describe an input language as a set of context-free
rewrite rules. Flex is about finite-state automata, but can be
extended to push-down automata (equivalent to context-free
grammars) and beyond, as long as it stays deterministic. I found
this to be very productive. I prefer automata over rewrite rules.

So, what I am looking for is a Python version of Flex that
supports the following capabilities, which are also supported by Plex:

- assigning any Python code to a matched input pattern

- input pattern recognition depending on 'states', which can be
  changed through actions

Things that seems to be missing from Plex:

- patterns like:
   A/B : match A only if followed by B, give A as result, keep B
         in the input stream

- actions like:
   REJECT: ask the flexer to come up with the next best match for the
           same input
   LESS(n): push n characters back into the input stream

All these are not really necessary, but they make some things
simpler.

So, are there any other packages that do these things better
than Plex?

-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From ake.ljungbert3 at comhem.se  Sat Aug  7 21:35:45 2004
From: ake.ljungbert3 at comhem.se (?ke)
Date: 7 Aug 2004 18:35:45 -0700
Subject: compiling with msvc7
Message-ID: <875af5e2.0408071735.4c1fdf89@posting.google.com>

I am trying to comile C code to python with weaver, using Microsoft
Visual Studio .NET (which I think uses VS 7.0)  but I get an error
that Python is compiled with VS 6 and so doesn't work.

Anyone knows a workaround for this ?

?ke


From mariube+netnews+ at ifi.uio.no  Wed Aug 18 12:07:30 2004
From: mariube+netnews+ at ifi.uio.no (Marius Bernklev)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:07:30 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>

"Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> writes:

> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....

24.  (anyone keeping count?)


-- 
Marius Bernklev


From tor.iver.wilhelmsen at broadpark.no  Sun Aug 22 04:53:17 2004
From: tor.iver.wilhelmsen at broadpark.no (Tor Iver Wilhelmsen)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 10:53:17 +0200
Subject: unicodedata name for \u000a
References: <mailman.2120.1093116249.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408212145180.1131-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <u8yc7mu4i.fsf@broadpark.no>

Peter Kleiweg <in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid> writes:

> No, there isn't. Check
> http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0000.pdf

Quoting that document:

Alias names are those for ISO/IEC 6429:1992.
Commonly used alternative aliases are also shown.

000A LF <control>
= LINE FEED (LF)

So the authors of unicodedata.name() could have picked either
'<control>', the ASCII name 'LF' or the alternative 'LINE FEED (LF)'.
Not picking any of them seems strange, and as the OP pointed out,
leads to an error even though the "C0 Controls" part of that page *is*
part of Unicode.


From davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu  Wed Aug 18 00:40:25 2004
From: davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu (David Pokorny)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:40:25 -0700
Subject: Why is SETUP_FINALLY uninterruptable[sic]?
References: <2JmdnSiV4NZzGL_cRVn-pg@lmi.net>
	<mailman.1836.1092794238.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <DcmdnQ_4TvyKQ7_cRVn-pg@lmi.net>


"Jeff Epler" <jepler at unpythonic.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.1836.1092794238.5135.python-list at python.org...

>I suspect that this has something to do with code like
>
>    l = some_lock()
>    l.acquire()
>                    # MARK
>    try:
>        something with l held
>    finally:
>        l.release()
>If an asynchronous exception happens betwen l.acquire() and the
>SETUP_FINALLY opcode (at "MARK") , there's no guarantee that l.release()
>is executed.
>
>This state of affairs always existed with KeyboardInterrupt and/or
>signals, and it's hard to see how this fixes the problem if l.acquire()
>is Python code, but I think that's what's going on.

I would belive you, but there is a trivial modification that circumvents
this problem:

---begin---
mylock = some_lock()

try:
    mylock.acquire()
    something with mylock held
finally:
    mylock.release()
---end---

Now if you're saying that lots of people wrote code as above and
uninterruptibility was added to ensure that it wouldn't break, that's one
thing, but is this the ONLY reason SETUP_FINALLY is uninterruptible? This
seems improbable, especially since putting statements adjacent to #MARK will
break this code.

David




From len-1 at telus.net  Sun Aug 15 11:59:25 2004
From: len-1 at telus.net (Lenard Lindstrom)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:59:25 GMT
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
References: <mailman.1661.1092519005.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7x7js1i887.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<slrnchug4m.n0d.npat@gray.efault.net>
Message-ID: <zn4w2y3g.fsf@telus.net>

Nick Patavalis <npat at efault.net> writes:

> On 2004-08-14, Paul Rubin <> wrote:
> >
> > You can't yield across multiple levels of function calls.  That's why
> > they're called "simple generators" instead of just "generators".
> >
> 
> For me it would be *tremendously* usefull if one could yield across
> multiple levels of function calls. If this was supported, then most
> uses of O/S treads could be replaced by generators.
> 
> Does anyone know if such a feature is planned?
> 
Having followed the development of Prothon it is my understanding that
such a thing is not possible in CPython for two reasons. The first is
that the yield statement itself defines a function declaration as a
generator. Without a specific "gen" declarator keyword as in Prothon:

gen evens(n):    # This is a generator
    for i in n:  # "for i in range(n)" in Python
        doubleit(i)

def doubleit(i)  # This is a helper that yields
    yield(2 * x) # "yield 2 * x"

for i in evens(5):
    print(i)     # "print i"

the yield does not know how many function calls up it must go to return
a value. In CPython it simply saves one frame, that of the current function
call. The second reason is a python function call in CPython involves an
actual recursive C call of the interpreter. So to have a yield span more
than one python function would require saving and restoring part of the
actual C stack - coroutines at the C level - or a rewrite of the interpreter
to not make the recursive C calls as in Stackless Python.

Lenard Lindstrom
<len-l at telus.net>


From martin at v.loewis.de  Wed Aug 11 18:10:06 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 00:10:06 +0200
Subject: Python script to generate static site?
In-Reply-To: <hl5lh0pb3u4m47f2bsatc9vigrv7pc7v07@4ax.com>
References: <hl5lh0pb3u4m47f2bsatc9vigrv7pc7v07@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <411a9935$0$12538$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

> Considering Python's wealth of libraries, it's most likely only a
> couple hours' work, but since I'm pretty much a Python newbie...

I recommend ht2html; this is used to generate python.org.

Regards,
Martin


From rnd at onego.ru  Wed Aug 25 07:53:27 2004
From: rnd at onego.ru (Roman Suzi)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:53:27 +0400 (MSD)
Subject: Is it a bug (or a feature)?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408251547120.9021@suzi.com.onego.ru>


In Python2.3.4:

>>> em = email.message_from_file(open('MAILMESSAGE'))
>>> for i in em:
...   print i
...
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/email/Message.py",
line
304, in __getitem__
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/email/Message.py",
line
370, in get
AttributeError: 'int' object has no attribute 'lower'

However items() does work:

>>> for i in em.items():
...   print i
...
('Date', '24 Aug 2004 16:06:01 +0400')
('From', 'Mail System Internal Data <MAILER-DAEMON at mydomain.ru>')
('Subject', "DON'T DELETE THIS MESSAGE -- FOLDER INTERNAL DATA")
('Message-ID', '<1095549161 at mydomain.ru>')
('X-IMAP', '1095527634 0000000005')
('Status', 'RO')

I can probably guess why this happens ('cause multiple fields with the
same names are possible), but .items() is broken by this... It needn't
be!


Sincerely yours, Roman A.Suzi
-- 
 - Petrozavodsk - Karelia - Russia - mailto:rnd at onego.ru -



From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Tue Aug 31 17:37:40 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 23:37:40 +0200
Subject: Beeping the console
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2697.1093987896.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2697.1093987896.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408312337010.1193-100000@kleigh.nl>

Jeffrey Barish schreef:

> What is the easiest way to beep the console from a Python program (i.e.,
> to do the same thing as echo -e \a)?

import sys
sys.stdout.write('\a')

or if you don't mind a newline:

print '\a'



-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From fumanchu at amor.org  Fri Aug 20 12:17:31 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:17:31 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E14@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Top-posting-to-help-quick-scanning: J2 J2 J2.

To Paul, M. Sparks, et al: Since J2 is coming up frequently (and Guido
did not immediately reject it when asked), I'm going to follow through
and try to write a proposal this weekend for J2. I'll post it here for
feedback (and of course, wait for the 'final' count of votes) before
posting it on py-dev.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org

> -----Original Message-----
> From: python-list-bounces+fumanchu=amor.org at python.org 
> [mailto:python-list-bounces+fumanchu=amor.org at python.org] On 
> Behalf Of Paul McGuire
> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 12:17 PM
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
> 
> 
> There are a number of messages on the python-dev mail list 
> that indicate
> that Guido is looking for some concensus to come from this 
> list as to what
> *one* alternative syntax for decorators we would like him to 
> consider in
> place of the @ syntax that is currently in 2.4a2.
> 
> I think special thanks are due to:
> - Anthony Baxter for his continuing efforts in this regard
> - Steven Bethard for some of the clearest thinking and 
> writing on this topic
> - Michael Sparks for actually implementing one of the options
> 
> We've all done our share of pitching and whining, but we need 
> to settle on
> *one* option for Guido to consider.
> 
> (And let's not get wrapped up complaining about the "process" 
> being followed
> in this whole thing, personally I think it is quite poor.  
> But let's play
> with the cards we've been dealt, and at least make a 
> collective proposal.)
> 
> The significant alternatives have been listed on the Python wiki at
> http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators .
> 
> Interested parties should also look at the comments in the python-dev
> archive for the past month, at
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/thread.html .
> 
> I would propose a multivote survey: each poster gets 3 votes among the
> lettered choices on the Wiki page above.  You can use all 3 
> for a single
> option, or split them across 2 or 3 options if you are open 
> to more than
> one.
> 
> I am not going to argue that this is scientific in any respect, but it
> *should* allow the major 1 or 2 choices to bubble to the top. 
>  I have used
> this process at work many times in the past when it was 
> necessary for a
> large group to set priorities among a large list of choices.
> 
> My vote is:  J2  J2  C1
> 
> By the way, once an option has been chosen, it *still* needs an
> implementation for Guido to accept it.  This puts some of the 
> options way
> ahead of the others, in my mind.
> 
> (And let's hope we get at least as good a response as the 
> "average age"
> thread!)
> 
> -- Paul
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 14:07:43 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:07:43 +0200
Subject: Alex Martelli: Welcome back!
References: <mailman.2534.1093623236.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1gj70sk.1o4cuwepco564N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Batista, Facundo <FBatista at uniFON.com.ar> wrote:

> [Dave Benjamin]
> 
> #- Asunto: Alex Martelli: Welcome back!
> #- 
> #- It's nice to see you around here again!
> 
> +1

Heh, thanks.  BTW, anybody interested in the readings we choose for our
marriage (me and Anna, who's also going to be my coeditor for the Python
Cookbook Second Edition) can have a look at http://www.aleax.it/mar.html
... Pythonistas will find one of the poems, ahem, interesting.  (Some
photos are at http://bonanna.multiply.com/photos/album/1 , but
mentioning them would be OT, since they're not Python-related;-).


Alex


From 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de  Mon Aug 16 14:40:22 2004
From: 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de (510046470588-0001 at t-online.de)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 20:40:22 +0200
Subject: Best programming language
References: <mailman.1718.1092639914.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cfpqlf$7sv$1@news.onet.pl>
	<mailman.1723.1092650117.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <873c2ndizt.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>

Roman Suzi <rnd at onego.ru> writes:

> On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, lopex wrote:
> 
> >Roman Suzi wrote:
> >
> >> ;-)
> >>
> >> Just type into google
> >> "best programming language"
> >> and press (I am lucky)
> >
> >Ruby ?
> 
> This probably indicates that Python in not well enough described as "best"
> for certain domains while Ruby isn't as humble ;-)
> 
> 
the best language is of course Scheme 

Klaus Schilling


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 22:12:51 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 12:12:51 +1000
Subject: Quixote vs. Preppy
In-Reply-To: <ceubnt$viq@odah37.prod.google.com>
References: <ceubnt$viq@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040805191263a894bc@mail.gmail.com>

On 5 Aug 2004 15:18:37 -0700, ellisjb at my-deja.com <ellisjb at my-deja.com> wrote:
> Incidently, http://www.colorstudy.com/docs/shootout.html looks like a
> good summary of the major Python web frameworks.  Unfortunately, it's
> not dated...  anyone know?

The page's modification date is April 2003.


From rnd at onego.ru  Sun Aug 22 10:20:45 2004
From: rnd at onego.ru (Roman Suzi)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 18:20:45 +0400 (MSD)
Subject: uppercase? RE: Alternative decorator syntax
In-Reply-To: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E22@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E22@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408221814370.3155@rnd.onego.ru>

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004, Robert Brewer wrote:

>Paul Rubin wrote:
>> "Paul McGuire" <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> writes:
>> > Please start giving some thought to what the 'decorate'
>> keyword should be.
>>
>> Looks like "declare" to me ;-)
>
>I agree, for reasons which will become clear in the proposal draft.
>
>I'd be most interested to hear arguments _against_ "declare", if there
>are any.

I do not like 'decorate' (or 'using') as it is too lenghty. My preference is
some hort 2-3 letter variant, which is not repeted on each line:

Let me patent this ;) before anybody else:

BY: staticmethod, otherdecor(x,y,z)
def func(x): ....

DEF: staticmethod, otherdecor(x,y,z)
def func(x): ....

WITH: staticmethod, otherdecor(x,y,z)
def func(x): ....

AS: staticmethod, otherdecor(x,y,z)
def func(x): ....

or

AS:
    staticmethod
    otherdecor(x,y,z)
def func(x): ....


USE: staticmethod, otherdecor(x,y,z)
def func(x): ....



DEF is most interesting. It has a concept of a LARGE def.
Whereas small def is just a ef of a function.


Sincerely yours, Roman Suzi
-- 
rnd at onego.ru =\= My AI powered by GNU/Linux RedHat 7.3


From martindemello at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 16:02:11 2004
From: martindemello at yahoo.com (Martin DeMello)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:02:11 GMT
Subject: decorator J4 - any objections?
References: <cab22418.0408201006.16f163b2@posting.google.com>
	<7xbrh5hcpb.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <7NsVc.155687$M95.24909@pd7tw1no>

Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at nospam.invalid> wrote:
> 
> Also, why the need for the "as" keyword?  What happens if it's just
> eliminated?  I.e.:
> 
>     def func(arg1, arg2)
>         @version("Added in 2.4")
>         @returns(None):
> 
>         """Docstring could be here, or in decorator part above"""
>         # body goes here

It's really nice to have an outdented marker for when the actual
function body begins.

martin


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Mon Aug  9 10:34:17 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:34:17 GMT
Subject: Exceptions as a Control Structure
References: <411775aa$0$17867$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<dOadnX1nRauy5YrcRVn-gw@powergate.ca>
	<41177b65$0$17857$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <JXLRc.8338$va2.1436@fe1.texas.rr.com>

> > Exceptions are also used by some as a mechanism for
> > returning information from subroutines, though it's
> > very likely the information will still be considered
> > "exceptional" in some way (think of it as an out-of-band
> > mechanism for returning special info).
>
> Do you have some example of this in the standard library ?
>

pyparsing uses this technique to try various parse expressions - a raised
ParseException denotes that the attempted parsing pattern failed to match at
the current stream location.

In an earlier incarnation of this library, I implemented this by returning
True or False values to indicate successful matching, but when a False was
returned, I found I needed more information about why things were False.
The exception-based approach allows me to return a full exception, including
the match failure message and the location at which the failure occurred.

One optimization I have found w.r.t. exceptions is that, in pyparsing, a
given parsing expression always raises the almost the same exception, with
only the input location changing.  I found a significant improvement by
pre-constructing the exception at grammar construction time, and then
raising a modified version at parse time.  (Contrast with the dynamic
construction/garbage-collection of thousands of exception objects when
created and used only once.)

-- Paul




From martin at v.loewis.de  Sun Aug  1 02:57:40 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 08:57:40 +0200
Subject: Importance of C# (was Re: IronPython-0.6 is now available!)
In-Reply-To: <t1ZOc.4478$Jp6.3264@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.921.1091114694.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<uy8l2g5ln.fsf@broadpark.no>
	<mailman.973.1091207420.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<uzn5gsexl.fsf@broadpark.no>
	<7u5tpvap1oh5.1h1v27kmjvf04$.dlg@40tude.net>
	<uvfg49gmy.fsf@broadpark.no>
	<t1ZOc.4478$Jp6.3264@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <410C9464.5080809@v.loewis.de>

Edward Diener wrote:
> Why do you say that ? In other words, what in Python's implementation of MI
> is superior to C++'s implementation of MI ?

In Python, MI is easier to understand than in C++. The state definition
for an object is simpler, as there is no need for virtual-vs-non-virtual
inheritance. Also, there are no casting issues in Python that cause
common errors in C++ (because in MI, casting can change the
representation of the address of an object).

Regards,
Martin


From amajorel at teezer.fr  Tue Aug 31 06:55:56 2004
From: amajorel at teezer.fr (Andre Majorel)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:55:56 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4PGdnfsOfdDPi63cRVn-tA@speakeasy.net>
	<slrncj1745.t5q.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<41337FC9.8070902@hotmail.com>
	<slrncj7hhh.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<p7v7j0plcfbden593l1irfprmfkp4d3k51@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <slrncj8m5n.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>

On 2004-08-31, Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis at SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 01:12:55 +0000 (UTC) in alt.folklore.computers,
> Andre Majorel <amajorel at teezer.fr> wrote:
>
>>On 2004-08-30, Antony Sequeira <usemyfullname at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Windows (MS) is not 'Unixism'?
>>
>>If by unixism, you mean any operating system that has a
>>hierarchical filesystem and byte stream files, yes. But that
>>would include quite a few other non-Unix operating systems,
>>including Mac OS 9, Prologue and probably everything else this
>>side of CP/M (DOS 1.x shall be deemed to be CP/M).
>
> DOS 2.x+ shall be deemed to be CP/M+! 

Wasn't it in version 2 that they added directories and
Unix-style file handles ?

-- 
Andr? Majorel <URL:http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/>
Conscience is what hurts when everything else feels so good.


From gumuz at NO_looze_SPAM.net  Wed Aug 18 08:57:14 2004
From: gumuz at NO_looze_SPAM.net (Guyon Morée)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:57:14 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <41235225$0$3889$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>

21 years and counting....



"Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:jQHUc.1529$2L3.505 at newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....
>
>




From sjdevnull at yahoo.com  Sun Aug  8 20:05:59 2004
From: sjdevnull at yahoo.com (G. S. Hayes)
Date: 8 Aug 2004 17:05:59 -0700
Subject: decorators vs GIL
References: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>
	<mailman.1345.1091924284.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <96c2e938.0408081605.706f8ec7@posting.google.com>

mudd at vex.net wrote in message news:<mailman.1345.1091924284.5135.python-list at python.org>...

> What really hurts is that I can't honestly tell Java programmers that

> Python  is a slam dunk compared to Java & the JVM.  Java has no GIL,



Java has drunk the threads Kool-Aid, and Java programmers are very
likely to be thread-crazy because of the lack of a select equivalent
(until recently) and the lack of good access to processes via fork or
similar.  Luckily, it's usually pretty easy to convince people of the
benefits of NOT overusing threads once they've made that mistake once.



I honestly think a big reason the GIL isn't a major issue to most
Pythonistas is because they tend to know that there's a better way to
approach most problems than using threads.



> Isn't that like saying, I avoid programming in general because it's

> error-prone?  I don't follow.



Not really.  You need to program to get things done, but presumably
you leverage all the work that's been done over the past 40+ years to
make that an easier, less error-prone task.  It's like saying you
shouldn't program in assembly because it's error prone; sure, there
are some cases where it makes sense, but in general it's not a great
idea.



Threads are error-prone because they intentionally circumvent the
years of OS work that went into getting protected memory for us in the
first place.  Even for tasks that aren't neatly divided into an event
loop, processes are available for parallel execution.  99% of the time
they're a better choice _except_ that two of the most dominant
programming platforms out there don't have a good (efficient and
featureful) implementation (Java and Windows).  It's absolutely insane
that many Windows programmers believe that to use parallel processing
requires you throw out memory protection; the two concepts are very
distantly related.  The decision to use threads vs. processes ought to
come down to whether you want to share ALL memory (and deal with the
locking and reentrancy issues that come along with that choice) or
only a specified subset of memory.  When you view it from that
perspective, threads are only rarely the right choice.



Indeed, in all the years that I've been writing code I've never once
found a problem where I felt threads were the right approach--and that
includes work on high-performance servers with thousands of concurrent
users, large-scale data visualization applications that depend on the
results of many parallel searches, and realtime audio processing
applications with non-realtime visualization and UI components. 
That's not to say there aren't limited problem domains where threads
are the right answer, but as a general construct they're wildly
overused.  I'm frankly glad that Python doesn't encourage more of the
same.


From fumanchu at amor.org  Tue Aug 24 16:38:24 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:38:24 -0700
Subject: J2 paper 0.2.1
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E55@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

First, thanks for the comments!

Paul Moore wrote:
> 1. I differ on the "it doesn't matter what the keyword is" statement.
>    On the contrary, my view could completely change depending on the
>    keyword - I'd loathe "predef", whereas "using" is acceptable to me.
>    Putting the proposal forward *without* an agreed keyword isn't
>    (IMHO) fair to people who have this view.

I understand your emotion, now, but not your reasoning, and in the
absence of that, I can't generate a fix for the proposal. If you could
go into more detail *why* you would loathe predef, it would go a long
way toward allowing a stronger statement in the doc. I feel "using" has
positives, but I don't know what the negatives of "predef" are. Happy to
make it stronger if there's an argument in addition to passion. Without
a logical argument, such a position comes down to "it's ugly", which
Guido has specifically said he doesn't care about or want to hear.

> 2. I agree with the person who pointed out that the indentation makes
>    the decorators merge visually with the function name. This is a
>    definite point against the syntax, and should be at least noted in
>    section "Arguments - I - 3 Additional benefits" paragraph 2. In
>    fact, I could esily argue that it completely invalidates this
>    point, swinging it in favour of @ syntax.

OK. I still feel the indent-dedent "points out where the def is" better
than @. But I'll try to synthesize the two in a more balanced fashion.

> 1. The patch doesn't (according to the comment) implement the
>    __future__ import. This needs to be added before the proposal is
>    submitted. And __future__ support for the interactive prompt may be
>    needed as well - I'm not sure here, see PEP 236 for the detail.

I agree it should. I'll see what can be done. Hope it's not too much of
a burden on Michael...? Anyone familiar with __future__'s that would
like to work on that?

> 2. Does the patch support decorating classes? The @ syntax *might* by
>    now (in CVS), there was discussion of adding it but I'm not sure it
>    went in. The patch should probably provide the same functionality
>    as CVS @-syntax, rather than just 2.4a2.

The patch does not support decorating classes, because @ doesn't.
There's a patch submitted for that*, but it hasn't been accepted, IIRC.
The PEP says 2.4 will see only function decorators.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org

http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1007991&group_i
d=5470&atid=305470


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 13:35:07 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 03:35:07 +1000
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051318360.10964-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051213180.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1207.1091724635.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051318360.10964-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204080510356c75d177@mail.gmail.com>

> I'll admit synchronization is a strong use case (since I don't believe it
> justifies language support, like it has in Java), but I just think there's
> a better way to go about things that no-one's thought of yet.

The discussion's been going on python-dev since at least February
2002. No better solution has been found yet.


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Mon Aug  9 05:10:44 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Mon,  9 Aug 2004 19:10:44 +1000
Subject: file owner id
Message-ID: <1092042644.41173f94ee898@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

i have an application that allows admin users to create template files,
which are stored on the server.
currently the file are created with the owner "nobody"
is it possibly to change the owner to be the same as the owner of the web
account?
if yes, are there any security risks with doing so - the script changes to
the web account's owner, creates the file and then changes back.

thanks

cheers

--
Ajay Brar,






----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 06:46:16 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:46:16 +1000
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
In-Reply-To: <cg1vp4$vgd$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <mailman.1829.1092785390.5135.python-list@python.org>	<65adnQrUKILiC7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>	<mailman.1834.1092791633.5135.python-list@python.org>	<m2vffgd6pu.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>	<mailman.1858.1092832530.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Michael.J.Fromberger-6AF702.10114718082004@localhost>	<mailman.1891.1092854353.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Michael.J.Fromberger-FF646E.17492318082004@localhost>	<mailman.1909.1092869465.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-F6FD2B.21140718082004@localhost>
	<cg1vp4$vgd$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040819034652e5089f@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 06:35:18 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Unless of course you want a method to be private/semi-private.  How do
> you feel about the way we can create/manipulate lists and dictionaries
> using special (magical) syntax?  Why is that different (acceptable)?

Look, name-mangling is horrid, and I don't think anyone's defending it. But
at the same time, "name mangling is there" is not an argument for extending
the horror to a whole new level. 

Name mangling only occurs when you create a method with two leading
underscores, and no trailing ones. Your proposal would hit _every_ _single_
'def'. It's nasty, it's unpythonic, and there's approximately _zero_ chance of
it ever going into the language. Having said that, it's perfectly feasible to do
it with a metaclass, and if you want to use it in your code, please, feel free.

Anthony


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Tue Aug 31 13:54:05 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:54:05 +0200
Subject: "Content-Length" header
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.31.13.04.27.995780@jerf.org>
References: <ch07ui$edo@odbk17.prod.google.com>
	<96c2e938.0408302057.61df147b@posting.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.31.13.04.27.995780@jerf.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408311952580.1193-100000@kleigh.nl>

Jeremy Bowers schreef:

> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 21:57:02 -0700, G. S. Hayes wrote:
> > Something related to think about: if most users use only letters in their
> > passwords, making the passwords case-insensitive potentially makes it take
> > crackers HALF the time to crack a password by brute force.
>
> Much worse than that.
>
> Assuming 8 letters only:
>
> Both cases: 52 ^ 8: 53,459,728,531,456 (53 trillion)

A bit less: 53 billion

> One case  : 26 ^ 8: 208,827,064,576 (208 billion)

208 billiard


-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html

The Halloween Documents: http://www.opensource.org/halloween/



From dlp at itasoftware.com  Tue Aug 24 14:11:40 2004
From: dlp at itasoftware.com (Dan Pierson)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 11:11:40 -0700
Subject: python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
References: <mailman.2274.1093330945.5135.python-list@python.org>	<z_idnSRcLoYq1LbcRVn-jg@giganews.com>
	<mailman.2280.1093356404.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<t6GdnTYtX4VOyLbcRVn-vA@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <2b5834f8.0408241011.fde9b55@posting.google.com>

Istvan Albert <ialbert at mailblocks.com> wrote in message news:<t6GdnTYtX4VOyLbcRVn-vA at giganews.com>...
>  > It is not to be used in the stdlib ever.
> 
> mean in this context?

IMHO, it means that Python code that is, or might be, checked into the
standard library (i.e. shipped with Python) must never assume that this
optimization is implemented.  Presumably this is because other Python 
implementations reuse code from the standard library and they may not
have implemented the optimization.


From usenet_spam at janc.invalid  Tue Aug 24 12:56:58 2004
From: usenet_spam at janc.invalid (JanC)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 16:56:58 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <mailman.1989.1092960560.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<AugVc.4535$Jn5.4362@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Xns954FC0C2A4830JanC@213.118.38.197>

Paul McGuire schreef:

> Also, there is no protection in the web page from "ballot box
> stuffing" - I hate to even bring it up, I think we're all adults here,
> but with public postings on Usenet, there is a somewhat higher effort
> to create fictitious posts to vote multiple times vs. visiting a poll
> page multiple times. 

I think it's at least as easy on usenet as on a website.  There are lots of 
open news servers to be abused...

-- 
JanC

"Be strict when sending and tolerant when receiving."
RFC 1958 - Architectural Principles of the Internet - section 3.9


From mauro.baraldi at bol.com.br  Mon Aug 16 09:51:11 2004
From: mauro.baraldi at bol.com.br (Mauro Baraldi)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 06:51:11 -0700
Subject: Knowing a COMObject by IID
Message-ID: <daf62359.0408160551.21eec6d2@posting.google.com>

Hello!

Someone can helpe-me how to get the name of a COMObject by it CLSID.

Example: 
A object got a number CLSID ({CA8A9783-280D-11CF-A24D-444553540000}).
It name is Acrobat Control for ActiveX.

Or where can I found a good reference for this...

Thanks
Mauro


From mark at prothon.org  Sat Aug  7 18:11:37 2004
From: mark at prothon.org (Mark Hahn)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 15:11:37 -0700
Subject: Prothon is switching to the .NET platform
References: <000401c47b59$32539220$0d01a8c0@MarkVaio>
	<mailman.1257.1091769173.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061247130.22947-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<10h7lb21dhbuc12@news.supernews.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061533250.25906-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<10h7rittck6ct75@news.supernews.com>
	<cf1t0h$ond$03$1@news.t-online.com>
	<10h9dkm5ub5h1f2@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <1dske12sbt1mj$.1aq70xrpy0r0i.dlg@40tude.net>

On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 07:01:55 -0400, John Roth wrote:

> "Peter Otten" <__peter__ at web.de> wrote in message
> news:cf1t0h$ond$03$1 at news.t-online.com...
>> John Roth wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Christopher T King" <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote in message
>>> news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061533250.25906-100000 at ccc8.wpi.edu...
>>>> On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, John Roth wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > I think it's possible to do prototypes within Python by
>>>> > overriding the __getattribute__() magic method. It still
>>>> > wouldn't be very pretty, but it should be able to do
>>>> > everything except override the magic methods (those
>>>> > seem to have to be in the class object for new style
>>>> > classes).
>>>>
> [snip]
>>>
>>> What I was thinking of was more along the lines of:
>>>
>>> class ProtoBaseClass(object):
>>>     def __getattribute__(self, attr):
>>>         # call object.__getattribute__(self, __dict__)
>>>         # find requested attribute
>>
>> Wouldn't that part be implied if you used __getattr__() instead of
>> __getattribute()?
>>
>>>         # if not found, loop through back pointer chain
>>>         # if it's not a function, return the attribute
>>>         # if it is a function, wrap it in a method object and return it.
>>
>> This means that an object sees all changes in its prototypes until
>> explicitly assigned an attribute. Is this intentional? (real question, I'm
>> not familiar with prototyped languages)
> 
> Actually, __getattribute__ sees all attribute requests, __getattr__
> only sees requests where the attribute isn't found. The reason for
> using __getattribute__ is that there are (I think) serious problems
> with attempting to execute functions that weren't originally defined
> in the base class or a subclass of the base class. In other words,
> if the result is a function, there's more work that needs to be done,
> and __getattr__ doesn't allow a hook to do it on the way out.
> 
> The attempt from 2000 I referred to attempted to get around this
> by using a callable instance together with a lambda. Unfortunately,
> it didn't work when I tried it, and as I said, after looking at the
> code I don't think it ever worked. The workaround for the function
> problem might work, though.

Lenard Lindstrom <len-l at telus.net> wrote a prototype implementation in
Python.  He hangs out on the Prothon mailing list (and here also, I
assume).  He probably knows more about this topic than anyone.

Mark Hahn
Prothon Author


From roy at panix.com  Mon Aug 16 19:42:51 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:42:51 -0400
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<RGwTc.37687$js3.13758840@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<m34qn2n2du.fsf@g2ctech.com> <41214271_1@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <roy-70FF06.19425116082004@reader1.panix.com>

In article <41214271_1 at 127.0.0.1>,
 "beliavsky at aol.com" <beliavsky at 127.0.0.1:7501> wrote:

> Jorge Godoy <godoy at ieee.org> wrote:
> 
> >Just an attempt and trying to keep it like your code. 
> 
> Thanks. My code did not correctly illustrate breaking out of more than one
> level of loop. How would the following code be translated to Python?

Ugh.  This is a truly ugly scenario.  You've got three nested loops, 
with each inner loop having a break out of both itself and the 
immediately containing loop.  Does this correspond to some real-world 
algorithm, or is it just a diabolical scenario invented for the example?

The bottom line is that this is really ugly and convoluted logic, and as 
such is probably going to be ugly and convoluted no matter what language 
you write it in.  Unless I don't understand what your code does, I don't 
see any way to write it in Python which won't be as ugly or uglier as 
your original.

> It is silly of course, but real-world situations where you want to exit a
> nested loop are not that rare.

Yes, there are occasions where you want nested loops (even three deep), 
and need to break out of the innermost one.  But I've never seen 
anything quite as complex as the scenario you set up here.

What I usually do when I've got a deeply nested loop like that is to 
factor it out into its own function, and let the return statement act 
like a multi-level break.  Something like:

def foo (n):
   """Return the first (i, j, k) triple that meets some
   condition.  Return None if the condition is never met."""
   for i in range (n):
      for j in range (n):
         for k in range (n):
            if condition:
                 return i, j, k
   return None




> 
> program xnest_loop
> ! illustrate breaking a nested loop
> integer :: i,j,k,n
> n = 4
> ido: do i=1,n
>    jdo: do j=1,n
>       if (i+j > n) exit ido
>       do k=1,n
>          if (i+j-k < 0) exit jdo
>          print*,i,j,k
>       end do
>    end do jdo
> end do ido
> end program xnest_loop
> 
> output:
>  1 1 1
>  1 1 2
>  2 1 1
>  2 1 2
>  2 1 3
>  3 1 1
>  3 1 2
>  3 1 3
>  3 1 4
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet 
> News==----
> http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 
> Newsgroups
> ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption 
> =---


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Aug 28 15:57:38 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 15:57:38 -0400
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com><7xzn4gwgea.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com><1gj7a1o.1a5d2q410jsn2kN%aleaxit@yahoo.com><7xisb4xnh5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com><1gj7c1a.tfdm14p3hclcN%aleaxit@yahoo.com><7xd61benm9.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com><1gj82n3.1ylkr3nierngmN%aleaxit@yahoo.com><cgpj1l$i0f$06$1@news.t-online.com>
	<7xd61b8uh2.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <cgqo3k$fis$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Paul Rubin" <"http://phr.cx"@NOSPAM.invalid> wrote in message 
news:7xd61b8uh2.fsf at ruckus.brouhaha.com...
> Benjamin Niemann <pink at odahoda.de> writes:
>> import mymodule
>> verify_module(mymodule)
>
> This is no good.  The import runs any code in the module, so the sig
> has to verify BEFORE the module loads.

'import x' is syntactic sugar for 'x = __import__('x')'.  I do not see it 
as necessary that sugar for the common case need cover every possible case. 
So, how about giving __import__ had an optional param 'signed' defaulted to 
False, to allow signed =True or signed = CA?

Terry J. Reedy





From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sun Aug  8 09:50:16 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 23:50:16 +1000
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar,
	but for what exactly? (decorator libraries).
In-Reply-To: <roy-0D45FB.09322108082004@reader1.panix.com>
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
	<mailman.1352.1091953503.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-0D45FB.09322108082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204080806504b2a6024@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 09:32:21 -0400, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
> Perhaps I'm just a luddite, but I don't actually use most of those
> features.  I have started playing around with iterators/generators, and
> find them very cool.

Fair enough. It usually took me a while to start using a new feature, 
but the ones I listed I find utterly invaluable - to the point where coding
against Python 2.1 I find annoying. I'd hate to have to code against 
Python 1.5.2, now that I'm used to having all the new tools.

> The single biggest improvement I see in the language since 1.5.2 is
> string methods!  After that, maybe augmented assignments (or whatever
> you call them; the ability to write "x += 1").

Good points on both - I forgot them in my list, but use them all the time.

> Most of the big improvements I've seen are in the library.  When did
> unitest get added?  I can't live without unittest.  I like the logging
> module, even if I think it's about twice as complicated as it should be.

There have been an enormous number of improvements to the stdlib,
true, but we're talking about changes to the language in this case.

> Speaking of libraries, Dan Bishop posted some interesting example of
> @memoize and @printreturns utility wrappers.  This leads me to think
> that a good way to leverage the idea of decorators would be a module of
> common utility functions which could be used as decorators by anybody.
> I'll call the module martha (since it supplies things used for
> decorating).  Does the proposed mechanism support something like (to use
> one of Dan's exmaples, written with two different syntaxen):

That might happen, but it's unlikely for 2.4. Give people time to use the new
tools, find out what works well and not so well, and standardise those.

> I'm even wondering if somehow decorators could be used for i18n?  The
> obvious problem there, is print is a statement not a function, and you
> can't decorate statements (or can you???).

Huh? You can only decorate function-or-methods. These can contain 
statements or expressions. And no, you can't decorate lambda. That 
would be an obscenity wrapped in a heresy and smacked with the 
ugly stick.

Anthony


From python-url at phaseit.net  Mon Aug  2 08:19:55 2004
From: python-url at phaseit.net (Peter Otten)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 12:19:55 +0000
Subject: Dr. Dobb's Python-URL! - weekly Python news and links (Aug  2)
Message-ID: <mailman.1129.1091629586.5135.python-announce-list@python.org>

QOTW: "We can't really say much more about thread safety than this, we
think the interpreter will survive. The rest is up to the programmer."
- Donn Cave

"Despite the seemingly endless necessity for doing so, it's actually not
possible to reverse-engineer intended invariants from staring at
thousands of lines of code (not in C, and not in Python code either)."
- Tim Peters


    Marduk wants to use string formatting with an arbitrary iterable
    instead of a tuple. Hans Nowak posts a format function that fits the
    bill.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=40FF1A61.9050408%40zephyrfalcon.org
    
    The release of IronPython 0.6, a Python implementation for .Net and
    Mono, spawns a broader discussion on the merits of .Net and the
    Common Language Runtime.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457%40posting.google.com
        http://www.ironpython.com
    
    Christopher T. King takes a closer look at Yaroslav Bulatov's attempt
    to benchmark various approaches to sum many floating point numbers.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011847510.21160-100000%40ccc4.wpi.edu

    Premshree Pillai writes an SMS-to-LiveJournal gateway
    in Python
        http://www.livejournal.com/users/premshree/33967.html
    
    How would you iterate over a list two consecutive items at a time?
    That's a the heart of jblazi's question, and it turns out that there
    are two ways to do it.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=pan.2004.07.31.12.27.23.547000%40hotmail.com
    
    Patrick Rutledge has written an introduction on how to create games
    using pygame.
        http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=7694
    
    Is Python fully thread-safe? Jeff Epler is poking fun at the
    questioner, but Francois Pinard (sorry, no cedilla today) points the
    discussion into a more serious direction.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=mailman.775.1090684870.5135.python-list%40python.org
    
    "Btw, thank you for those footnotes in Thinking in Java that
    encouraged me to try Python :-)" - Dan Bishop.
    Bruce Eckel, author of "Thinking in Java", asks for a test for string
    similarity. He receives various answers and a thank-you.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=mailman.958.1091195562.5135.python-list%40python.org
    
    Dan Sugalski has lost the "Pie-thon" bet to Guido van Rossum that
    Python would run faster on Parrot, the virtual machine meant to power
    Perl 6. Images of Guido throwing the pie are finally available.
        http://www.onlamp.com/pub/wlg/5346
        http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oscon2004/friday/index.html

    
========================================================================
Everything Python-related you want is probably one or two clicks away in
these pages:

    Python.org's Python Language Website is the traditional
    center of Pythonia
        http://www.python.org
    Notice especially the master FAQ
        http://www.python.org/doc/FAQ.html

    PythonWare complements the digest you're reading with the
    marvelous daily python url
         http://www.pythonware.com/daily  
    Mygale is a news-gathering webcrawler that specializes in (new)
    World-Wide Web articles related to Python.
         http://www.awaretek.com/nowak/mygale.html 
    While cosmetically similar, Mygale and the Daily Python-URL
    are utterly different in their technologies and generally in
    their results.

    comp.lang.python.announce announces new Python software.  Be
    sure to scan this newsgroup weekly.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python.announce

    Brett Cannon continues the marvelous tradition established by 
    Andrew Kuchling and Michael Hudson of intelligently summarizing
    action on the python-dev mailing list once every other week.
	http://www.python.org/dev/summary/

    The Python Package Index catalogues packages.
        http://www.python.org/pypi/

    The somewhat older Vaults of Parnassus ambitiously collects references
    to all sorts of Python resources.
        http://www.vex.net/~x/parnassus/   

    Much of Python's real work takes place on Special-Interest Group
    mailing lists
        http://www.python.org/sigs/

    The Python Business Forum "further[s] the interests of companies
    that base their business on ... Python."
	http://www.python-in-business.org

    The Python Software Foundation (PSF) has replaced the Python
    Consortium as an independent nexus of activity.  It has official
    responsibility for Python's development and maintenance. 
        http://www.python.org/psf/
    Among the ways you can support PSF is with a donation.
        http://www.python.org/psf/donate.html

    Cetus collects Python hyperlinks.
        http://www.cetus-links.org/oo_python.html

    Python FAQTS
        http://python.faqts.com/

    The Cookbook is a collaborative effort to capture useful and
    interesting recipes.
	http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python

    Among several Python-oriented RSS/RDF feeds available are
	http://www.python.org/channews.rdf
	http://bootleg-rss.g-blog.net/pythonware_com_daily.pcgi
	http://python.de/backend.php
    For more, see
	http://www.syndic8.com/feedlist.php?ShowMatch=python&ShowStatus=all
    The old Python "To-Do List" now lives principally in a
    SourceForge reincarnation.
        http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?atid=355470&group_id=5470&func=browse
        http://python.sourceforge.net/peps/pep-0042.html
     
    The online Python Journal is posted at pythonjournal.cognizor.com.
    editor at pythonjournal.com and editor at pythonjournal.cognizor.com
    welcome submission of material that helps people's understanding
    of Python use, and offer Web presentation of your work.

    *Py: the Journal of the Python Language*
        http://www.pyzine.com

    Archive probing tricks of the trade:
        http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python&num=100
        http://groups.google.com/groups?meta=site%3Dgroups%26group%3Dcomp.lang.python.*

Previous - (U)se the (R)esource, (L)uke! - messages are listed here:
  http://www.ddj.com/topics/pythonurl/         
  http://purl.org/thecliff/python/url.html (dormant)
or
  http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_q=+Python-URL!&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python


Suggestions/corrections for next week's posting are always welcome.
E-mail to <Python-URL at phaseit.net> should get through.

To receive a new issue of this posting in e-mail each Monday morning
(approximately), ask <claird at phaseit.net> to subscribe.  Mention
"Python-URL!".


-- The Python-URL! Team--

Dr. Dobb's Journal (http://www.ddj.com) is pleased to participate in and
sponsor the "Python-URL!" project.




From roy at panix.com  Thu Aug 19 10:28:07 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:28:07 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
References: <mailman.1829.1092785390.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<65adnQrUKILiC7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1834.1092791633.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<m2vffgd6pu.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
	<mailman.1858.1092832530.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-6AF702.10114718082004@localhost>
	<mailman.1891.1092854353.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-FF646E.17492318082004@localhost>
	<mailman.1909.1092869465.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-F6FD2B.21140718082004@localhost>
	<cg1vp4$vgd$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040819034652e5089f@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.1955.1092922419.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-B37C53.10280719082004@reader1.panix.com>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> > Look, name-mangling is horrid, and I don't think anyone's defending it. But
> > at the same time, "name mangling is there" is not an argument for extending
> > the horror to a whole new level. 

Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I disagree.  It's an effective name-hiding technique.  Simple + 
> Effective = Good.

I disagree with your disagreement :-)

I find a mix of text and puctuation difficult to read.  Human brains 
don't read letters, they read whole words.  That's why, for example, 
it's so easy to make a typo and not notice it.  I find "word.word" easy 
to parse, but "word.__word" much more difficult.  I don't know if it's 
the switching back and forth between letters and symbols, or the 
juxtaposition of the two symbols down on the baseline (i.e. ".__") that 
makes it hard to read.

This is true of the __name__ convention for internal names too, but 
somehow I don't find that as bad.  Maybe because it's symmetric?  Maybe 
because my brain recognizes the whole __name__ as a unit, with the 
"name" part of it being what I really recognize?

Even worse is when mix them.  Stuff like "__myPrivateFunc.__name__" is 
total gibberish to me.

Oh my god, I just realized (Ob decorator comment here) that if we start 
having people write private decorators, we'll have things like:

@__decorator

which really makes me barf.


From jeffrey at I.slack  Mon Aug  9 10:36:00 2004
From: jeffrey at I.slack (Jeffrey Froman)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 07:36:00 -0700
Subject: Apache web server and CGI
References: <81a41dd.0408090447.7f27a092@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <10hf2ugjngver5e@corp.supernews.com>

Lad wrote:

> How can I set up Apache web server to use Python for CGI processing( for
> file *.py). Thanks for help

A simple method would be to include the line:

AddHandler cgi-script .py

in your httpd.conf. This should work fine so long as your .py files start
with a proper invocation of the python interpreter (i.e.,
#!/usr/bin/python). You might also want to look at mod_python
(http://www.modpython.org/).

Jeffrey


From jbellis at gmail.com  Mon Aug 30 23:55:28 2004
From: jbellis at gmail.com (Jonathan  Ellis)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 20:55:28 -0700
Subject: Intelisence
In-Reply-To: <43SYc.121080$UTP.113615@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
Message-ID: <ch0srg$87o@odah37.prod.google.com>

> Is there any inelisence IDE (like visual studio) for python?

There are several; Komodo from ActiveState is IMO the best of the lot.
-Jonathan



From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Aug 20 16:02:57 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 16:02:57 -0400
Subject: simple Thread question
References: <b8001e9f.0408031151.4f617c6@posting.google.com>
	<l82dnQLW7bZOIb_cRVn-qQ@powergate.ca>
	<cfvphs$p9e$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<aqOdnXhiyaIBY77cRVn-jA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <cg5ldh$kk2$1@panix3.panix.com>

In article <aqOdnXhiyaIBY77cRVn-jA at powergate.ca>,
Peter Hansen  <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
>Aahz wrote:
>> In article <l82dnQLW7bZOIb_cRVn-qQ at powergate.ca>,
>> Peter Hansen  <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>While it's true that that is all that's needed, it is not required,
>>>and doesn't really provide any performance improvements.  I often do
>>>the above sort of thing where I use a given module in only one place,
>>>especially when using threads where it feels subtly cleaner to defer
>>>loading of some modules until the thread actually starts.
>> 
>> Except that the import lock makes this a Bad Idea, IMO.
>
>Does the import lock apply to the first import, or even
>to all later ones where it can just find it in sys.modules?

It applies to all -- after all, sys.modules gets updated before the
module code is run...
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 09:21:46 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:21:46 -0400
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
In-Reply-To: <slrnci0vhb.k3.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<RGwTc.37687$js3.13758840@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<LIqdndnJz9N_pr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<slrnci0vhb.k3.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
Message-ID: <nbudnY5S8Jl2Kb3cRVn-oQ@powergate.ca>

Antoon Pardon wrote:

> Op 2004-08-16, Peter Hansen schreef <peter at engcorp.com>:
>>Did you really not indent your code in those languages consisntly
>>anyway?
> 
> I can't answer for keith, but my answer is that it depends on
> what you consider consistent.
> 
> My indentation was consistent with the structure of the algorithm.
> That is not necesarrily the same as the structure you implemeted
> that algorithm in.

Huh?  How does an algorithm have structure that affects
indentation?  It sounds like you are talking about some kind
of artistic considerations here.

> I think that I should be the final judge of what is the most
> appropiate way to use indentation, not the compilor/interpreter,
> even if it agrees with me.

So did you indent your code such that consecutive lines were
not indented to the same identation level even when they were
conceptually, logically, *algorithmically* part of the same
block?

I know there are such people out there.  I even had to fire one
once, roughly because he had no concept of how his failure to
write his code with anything resembling consistent indentation
meant that it was unreadable to others.  (At least, that was the
surface symptom which warned us of deeper problems.)  What I
doubt is that many of those people are out there rejecting
Python just because it doesn't let them write god-awful unreadable
code with artistic or random indentation.

-Peter


From tim.peters at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 15:15:07 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:15:07 -0400
Subject: Missing _sre.pyd in 2.4a2 Windows installer?
In-Reply-To: <1xhtg1xm.fsf@pobox.com>
References: <1xhtg1xm.fsf@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <1f7befae040826121513148c38@mail.gmail.com>

[John J. Lee]
> The subject line says it, really: I installed 2.4a2 using the MSI
> installer on python.org, and I appear to be missing this file:
> 
> C:\Python24\DLLs\_sre.pyd

That file doesn't exist in 2.4; the code it used to contain has been
folded into the core python24.dll (so _sre is builtin now, instead of
an extension module).

> As a result, Python picks up the _sre.pyd from my 2.3 installation,

That shouldn't be possible, since _sre is a builtin now.

> and I get the expected error about a bad magic number in that DLL.
>
> I think I must be doing something stupid, but what, exactly?

Don't know, can't guess.  Run Python 2.4 with the -v switch, then do

    import _sre

You should see something like

>>> import _sre
# C:\Python24\lib\encodings\cp437.pyc matches C:\Python24\lib\encodings\cp437.py
import encodings.cp437 # precompiled from C:\Python24\lib\encodings\cp437.pyc
import _sre # builtin
>>>

If you don't see something like that, it's A Clue.


From noone at nowhere.com  Sun Aug  1 16:32:08 2004
From: noone at nowhere.com (dusty)
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 20:32:08 GMT
Subject: Noob question on PyQt and Qt
References: <5m9qg0ds0g5c0k9tbgukm965au96rud6tm@4ax.com>
	<mailman.1030.1091385126.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <5nkqg0t0igc11am041vukkpekta6rn60rs@4ax.com>

On Sun, 1 Aug 2004 19:32:10 +0100, Phil Thompson
<phil at riverbankcomputing.co.uk> wrote:

>On Sunday 01 August 2004 6:42 pm, dusty wrote:
>> I am learning Python and Qt designer (using eric3). I'm writing an app
>> using QCheckList and have succeeded in loading parent and children,
>> with checkboxes, with data from a file.  I want to programmatically
>> check some boxes depending on the string from the list.
>>
>> This is the code that I use to create the checkbox's:
>>  ~~~
>>   d = QCheckListItem(it, lstI[g:], QCheckListItem.CheckBox)
>>   self.childlist1.append(d)
>>  ~~~
>> The first char in each line in 'lstI' determines if the checkbox
>> should be checked or not.
>> How do I change the checkbox to 'On' (checked) in Python code when the
>> checkbox is created?
>
>Use the setOn() method.
>
>Phil

Thanks Phil.



From http  Fri Aug 27 04:14:40 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 01:14:40 -0700
Subject: Mysql in Python?
References: <cglb3o$fsk@odak26.prod.google.com>
	<1a0o0u8an8yhn$.1aby5k5hmj67d.dlg@40tude.net>
Message-ID: <7xsma9gfpr.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

JZ <cy.fbp.eryvtvne at ncbybtrglxn.pbz> writes:
> Using PHP native database functions is a very bad idea. All experencied
> programmers use more abstract db wrappers like ADOdb
> (http://adodb.sourceforge.net/).

Interesting.  Every PHP app I've ever seen uses the native functions,
but I haven't looked at many fancy ones.

> There is no PHP standard templating system. PHP itself is a template
> framework! 

I'm not sure what the distinction is supposed to be?


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Mon Aug  2 03:49:37 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 17:49:37 +1000
Subject: Call for Grant Proposals
In-Reply-To: <41097fed$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>
References: <40fcaa90$0$27091$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<ToadnWWu8tQIgmDdRVn-uQ@giganews.com>
	<p_2dnfCS9O4GRmDdRVn-qQ@powergate.ca> <41097fed$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040802004962f99d8a@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:53:38 GMT, Maurice LING <mauriceling at acm.org> wrote:
> I have a few questions to ask about this grant and I've emailed this to
> psf-grant at python.org but had no replies yet. Maybe someone authoritative
> from PSF can help me out in this or anyone can put in some comments.

> 1. Is there a requirement to release the deliverables, including,
> software, source codes, specifications and documentation, to the general
> public using any of the Open Source Initiative (OSI) approved open
> source licences?

I'm not on the grants committee, but I'd _expect_ that this would be the
case, yes. Will this be a problem? 

Anthony


From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Aug  4 02:44:10 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 08:44:10 +0200
Subject: Overhead of (was Reasoning behind) nested scope
References: <mailman.1087.1091532385.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ceo852$9go$00$1@news.t-online.com>
	<10h0kducrd2fod3@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <ceq0jq$k7o$04$1@news.t-online.com>

Nigel Rowe wrote:

> Peter Otten wrote:
> 
>> Andy Baker wrote:
>> 
>>> (On a side note is there any way to call a nested function from outside
>>> the parent? I was kind of expecting nested functions to be addressable
>>> through dot notation like methods are but I can see why that wouldn't be
>>> quite right. This might be a better question for the tutor list...)
>> 
>> When you are nesting functions, you don't get one function sitting inside
>> another function. Instead, the function creation code of the "inner"
>> function is executed every time to the effect that you get a new inner
>> function every time you call the outer one:
>> 
>>>>> def make():
>> ...     def f(): return "shoobidoo"
>> ...     return f
>> ...
>>>>> f1 = make()
>>>>> f2 = make()
>>>>> f1(), f2()
>> ('shoobidoo', 'shoobidoo')
>>>>> f1 is f2
>> False
>> 
>> You wouldn't do that in cases like the above, when you get nothing in
>> return for the extra overhead, but somtimes nesting is useful - because
>> of the change in the scoping rules you now get readonly-closures:
>> 
>>>>> def make(s):
>> ...     def f(): return s
>> ...     return f
>> ...
>>>>> f1 = make("now")
>>>>> f2 = make("what")
>>>>> f1(), f2()
>> ('now', 'what')
>> 
>> Peter
> 
> What work is actually done when the
>         'nested function creation code of the "inner" function'
> is executed?
> 
> Given a quick test:-
> <code>
> def outer():
>     def inner():
>         pass
>     return inner
> 
> b1 = outer()
> b2 = outer()
> 
> attrs=[a for a in dir(b1) if not a.startswith('_')]
> for a, a1, a2 in zip(attrs,
>                      [getattr(b1,a) for a in attrs],
>                      [getattr(b2,a) for a in attrs]):
>     print a, a1 is a2
> 
> </code>
> <result>
> func_closure True
> func_code True
> func_defaults True
> func_dict True
> func_doc True
> func_globals True
> func_name True
> </result>
> 
> it appears that all the components of the inner function are the same,
> which just leaves the binding of the code object to 'inner'.

Not the binding, a new function object is created every time outer is run,
i. e. (faked, but I did it for real above with f1 and f2)

>>> b1 is b2
False

> Am I missing something, or is the overhead no worse than, say,
> foo=self.foo, where self.foo is a method?

If it were pure Python it would rather be something like

foo = Function(func_closure=..., func_code=..., ...)

Another perspective is to look at the byte code:

>>> import dis
>>> def outer():
...     def inner(): pass
...     return inner
...
>>> dis.dis(outer)
  2           0 LOAD_CONST               1 (<code object inner at
0x4028eee0, file "<stdin>", line 2>)
              3 MAKE_FUNCTION            0
              6 STORE_FAST               0 (inner)

  3           9 LOAD_FAST                0 (inner)
             12 RETURN_VALUE
             13 LOAD_CONST               0 (None)
             16 RETURN_VALUE
>>> def inner():
...     pass
...
>>> def outer2():
...     return inner
...
>>> dis.dis(outer2)
  2           0 LOAD_GLOBAL              0 (inner)
              3 RETURN_VALUE
              4 LOAD_CONST               0 (None)
              7 RETURN_VALUE

In the example you get three extra instructions, LOAD_CONST, MAKE_FUNCTION
and STORE_FAST (and earn the slight benefit that inner is now a local
instead of a global). A constant code object is used, meaning compilation
takes place at most once when the module is loaded. There is a dedicated
op-code, so function creation should be faster than "normal" creation of a
class instance.

Now this is all nice and dandy, but how do the two contenders perform?

$ timeit.py -s"def inner(): pass" -s"def outer(): return inner" "outer()"
1000000 loops, best of 3: 0.469 usec per loop
$ timeit.py -s"def outer():" -s"  def inner(): pass" -s"  return inner"
"outer()"
1000000 loops, best of 3: 1.12 usec per loop

i. e. nesting the two functions roughly doubles execution time. 
However, creation of an inner function often will only take a small fraction
of the total time spent in the outer function - in the end it's just a
matter of style. 

I use inner functions only when they depend on the local context because I
think it nicely discriminates closures from helpers. I tend to omit
implicit parameters even for helper funtions, therefore nesting them would
gain me nothing.

Peter



From nhodgson at bigpond.net.au  Fri Aug 20 18:26:23 2004
From: nhodgson at bigpond.net.au (Neil Hodgson)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 22:26:23 GMT
Subject: Decorator keyword options - brainstorming
References: <7knVc.4599$Jn5.3074@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<cg5150$9if$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<HioVc.4613$Jn5.3188@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<cg55e4$bgk$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <jUuVc.785$D7.702@news-server.bigpond.net.au>

Michael Sparks:

> Whilst many decorators can be alluded to as a keyword, I don't think all
> decorators would be. Consider how you would describe the actions of
> this list, or how you would describe this list of actions: (taken from
> various sources)
>
>       staticmethod
>       generator
>       grammarrule('statement : expression')
>       versioninfo("Added in 2.4")
>       deprecated
>       typeinfo(None)
>       author("joe bloggs")
>       funcattrs(grammar="'@' dotted_name [ '(' [arglist] ')' ]",
>                status="experimental", author="BDFL")

   Declarations?

declare:
    staticmethod
    versioninfo("Added in 2.4")
    deprecated
def cheeseSketch():

   Neil





From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug  2 15:28:36 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 02 Aug 2004 19:28:36 GMT
Subject: Python executable on Windows
References: <410e91ce$0$58816$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk>
	<410e93a1$0$58815$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk>
Message-ID: <410e95e4$0$65605$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-02, Simon Faulkner <news at titanic.co.uk> wrote:

>> Is it possible to write a program and add the Python
>> interpreter so that I just end up with a single .exe file for
>> windows?

> I guess py2exe as in the thread above!  Doh...

It doesn't produce a single .exe file.  It produces a directory
of files that need to be installed (one of which is an .exe).

> Is it easy?

Yes. 

http://starship.python.net/crew/theller/py2exe/

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Spreading peanut
                                  at               butter reminds me of
                               visi.com            opera!! I wonder why?


From jdc at uwo.ca  Mon Aug  2 21:01:58 2004
From: jdc at uwo.ca (Dan Christensen)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 21:01:58 -0400
Subject: transforming a list into a string
References: <pan.2004.07.31.12.27.23.547000@hotmail.com>
	<roy-982174.13075831072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<cegqdu$2fb$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<mailman.1020.1091310303.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-FDE83B.19595731072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1022.1091319366.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011814020.21160-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1032.1091401185.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011957470.22508-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1041.1091407883.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87wu0h5915.fsf@uwo.ca>

Tim Peters <tim.peters at gmail.com> writes:

> The only thing required of __iter__ is that it return an object that
> supports the iteration protocol (meaning an object that supports
> next() and __iter__() methods).  So again, adding the ability to
> slice too would mean requiring more of __iter__ methods -- or
> changing the implementation of iter() to ignore __iter__ methods and
> make something up itself.  It's A Visible Change no matter how you
> cut it.

What if object[a:b:c] did the following?

1) if __getslice__ is supplied by object, use it.
2) if __getitem__ is supplied, use it.
3) if __iter__ is supplied, use islice(__iter__(object),slice(a,b,c)).

(IIUC, 1) and 2) are what is done currently.  As Christopher pointed
out, for 3) to work, islice would have to modified to accept a slice.)

Would this be backward compatible (a "Visible Change"), or would it
break something?

It seems to parallel other dispatching mechanisms, e.g. (IIUC) "in" is
implemented just using the iterator protocol, unless the object
supplies __contains__.

I like the idea of not needing to know about islice, and just using
the [a:b:c] notation.  One of python's strongest features is its
consistency of notation.

Dan


From specmark at aol.com  Tue Aug 10 10:52:19 2004
From: specmark at aol.com (expecthealth)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:52:19 -0000
Subject: ORACLE DBA -- Western Suburbs of Chicago
Message-ID: <cfanf3+m0n9@eGroups.com>


OPERATIONAL  ORACLE  DBA


Position Description:
This position will report to the Manager of Systems Services.  The 
DBA will work in the Oracle environment and help manage a complex 
production and development environment.  This person will interact 
with many constituencies to develop database solutions to business 
problems.  This person will assist Development DBAs with the design 
of tables, relationships, stored procedures and triggers.  This 
person will work independently to ensure that the database is 
operating efficiently and to ensure that proper backup and disaster 
recovery methods are maintained.

Position Qualifications:
q	Bachelor's Degree in Computer Science, or equivalent.
q	Minimum of 5 years' experience in database administration or 
development, with a minimum of 3 years' of Oracle DBA experience.
q	Experience in Oracle 11i Applications (ERP, CRM, etc.)
q	Experience in Oracle Portal environment a plus.
q	Experience with Oracle Discoverer.
q	Experience with OID and LDAP.  Active Director integration 
experience a plus.
q	Proven track record in managing and tuning large volume 
Oracle databases.
q	Experience in UNIX environment required ? SUN SOLARIS 
preferred.
q	Excellent communications skills.
q	Experience with backup, recovery, and disaster recovery 
process/scenarios.

Position Characteristics:
q	Plan and coordinate the activities related to running 
production Oracle Applications environments.
q	Plan and coordinate the development, test and training 
environments in support of the production environment.
q	Plan and design database physical structure to accommodate 
large transaction and high availability.
q	Perform database and application monitoring and tuning to 
ensure databases run at peak performance.  Troubleshooting of 
performance issues.
q	Assist in the design and implementation of security policy.
q	Work with development DBA (Database Developer) to implement 
the logical database design in physical environment.  Provide 
solutions for database sizing/capacity, server requirements and space 
requirements.
q	Work with Operation group to design, implement and test 
enterprise backup and recovery solution, including Disaster Recovery 
initiatives.
q	Work with the Systems and Networks groups to 
implement/integrate OID with Active Directory, LDAP and/or DHCP 
solutions.
q	Work with the Networks and Systems groups to ensure the 
platforms are robust enough to support the needs of the database.
q	Review new database programs, functions, procedures, and 
packages before they are loaded to production database.
q	Install, configure, trouble-shoot Oracle/SQL database and 
Oracle Application system (including Portal, Single-Signon, 
Discoverer and third party application system) in all servers.  
Upgrade/Patching database and system based on Development/Operations 
request.
q	Support data loading, conversion and batch job operation and 
do trouble-shooting of development/production system.
q	Do database sizing, capacity planning and implement system 
security.

SALARY RANGE:  $90's.

Please forward your resume / c.v. :

Bil Norris
Diamond Consulting Inc.
630-586-0000 x19
specmark at aol.com 




From sheldonplankton at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 16:17:28 2004
From: sheldonplankton at yahoo.com (Sheldon Plankton)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:17:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Can't install Python 2.3 on RedHat 9
Message-ID: <20040826201728.57833.qmail@web53502.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi,

I want to eventually install plone which requires that
I install python2.3.

So I go to http://www.python.org/2.3.4/rpms.html and
since I need RPM's for RH9 and not Fedora Core 1 I
download python2.3-2.3.4-3pydotorg.src.rpm and do this
...

# rpmbuild --rebuild python2.3-2.3.4-3pydotorg.src.rpm
Installing python2.3-2.3.4-3pydotorg.src.rpm
warning: user jafo does not exist - using root
warning: group jafo does not exist - using root
warning: user jafo does not exist - using root
warning: group jafo does not exist - using root
warning: user jafo does not exist - using root
warning: group jafo does not exist - using root



Where rpmbuild appears to hang. :confused: What's up
with that?
Is this a slow process? How long should I wait before
I ^C it?

Thanks





		
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush


From http  Thu Aug 19 13:06:58 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 10:06:58 -0700
Subject: Embedding Python in Python
References: <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
	<7xu0v0l2be.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<cg09ne$ma7$1@fred.mathworks.com>
	<7x3c2kkzn8.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<cg0bjf$78b$1@fred.mathworks.com>
	<7x7jrwt8gc.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<cg2899$fe1$1@fred.mathworks.com>
Message-ID: <7x657fcb0t.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

JCM <joshway_without_spam at myway.com> writes:
> It's fine to look at it that way.  Start with a subset of Python that
> you know to be safe, for example only integer literal expressions.
> Keep adding more safe features until you're satisfied with the
> expressiveness of your subset.

Well ok, but then you haven't got Python, you've got some subset, with
a completely different implementation than the Python that it's
embedded in.



From alan.gauld at btinternet.com  Sat Aug 21 14:38:59 2004
From: alan.gauld at btinternet.com (Alan Gauld)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:38:59 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<41245e57$0$29668$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <j65fi0ltcts3603agj6aiqtuufd6bini0f@4ax.com>

> Lucas Raab wrote:
> > One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> > Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> > about....

OK, I'll play...

I'm 46, started programming in 74 in BASIC (dunno what machine,
it was located at the local university and we downloaded the
programs from a teletype over a modem(120 baud) and got back
printouts 3 days later...)

Next I encountered the Sinclair ZX81 in 1981 (Timex in the USA)
where I wrote my first stock control application for a friend's
business!

In 1982 I started entering patches to a Marconi Telex switch in
Coral via a BBC Micro running a terminal emulator. I only
realised that later, I actually thought I was programming 
the BBC at the time!! :-)

Then in 1984 I got formal training in Pascal, Assembler, C, Lisp
and Smalltalk. I've been a software engineer ever since and came
across Python in 1997 when a colleague pointed me at it after I
complained about the Perl syntax I was using to write a CGI
script.

I now use Python mainly for prototyping design ideas and
exploring the interfaces of our networked server applications
before writing specs for our offshore programmers to write in C++
or Java.

Alan G.
Author of the Learn to Program website
http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug  3 21:49:20 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 21:49:20 -0400
Subject: asyncore, asynchat and threads
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1108.1091583968.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1108.1091583968.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <7cKdnShvevY_3Y3cRVn-iA@powergate.ca>

Joshua Moore-Oliva wrote:

> However, I must use a separate thread for each connection as the work 
 > resulting from the communication can result in blocking for an 
indefinate
 > period of time.
...
> even any pointers, help, ideas on how to make something like this work 
 > would be greatly appreciated as well.

The usual approach is to use something along the lines of a separate
thread for the *work* rather than for the connection, or maybe a
thread pool, and communicate with those threads from the asynchat
thingies using Queue.Queues...

I'm not sure we have enough information about what you really need
to say more.  You've given lots of info about what you "would love
to do" but not enough about what you actually need to do. <wink>

-Peter


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Fri Aug  6 06:35:33 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 10:35:33 GMT
Subject: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was Decorator syntax)
References: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01C8C636@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>
	<mailman.1258.1091771072.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <V9JQc.2234$KZ2.1468@fe2.texas.rr.com>

> I'm not saying that this isn't possible, more that merely collecting a
concensus
> vote isn't likely to do much. Strong technical arguments are much more
likely
> to work.

It seems that citing constructs in other languages as precedent counts for
something.  One of GvR's objections is that the list-after-def comes after
the argument list, presumably reversing the order of importance of the list.
Conceptually, I think he sees these decorators as attributes of the function
itself, ahead of the arguments, which are a level down from the function
def.

However, this is exactly like the 'const' qualifier in C++, which comes at
the end of the function declaration, or the 'raises' clause in IDL or
'throws' in Java.  Just because these come at the end of the decl doesn't
imply they are in any way 'inferior' to the argument list.  (And they
accomplish this without needing any special punctuation marks!)

-- Paul
Keep Python Beautiful.




From jaydonnell at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 23 18:16:10 2004
From: jaydonnell at yahoo.com (Jay Donnell)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 15:16:10 -0700
Subject: urllib hangs
References: <a6fdfd6b.0408230902.2afc0e08@posting.google.com>
	<cgdaoh$1gn$01$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <a6fdfd6b.0408231416.45a7e050@posting.google.com>

Thanks, but I'm on python 2.2 and don't have the ability to upgrade it
on the server. How would I do this in 2.2?

> since 2.3 there's socket.setdefaulttimeout(), this should to the job:
> 
> import socket
> socket.setdefaulttimeout(10)
> # throw socket.timeout exception after 10s,
> # default is to wait a infinitly (or at least a very, very long time...)
> 
> For older python versions, ask google for timeoutsocket.py


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 20:37:51 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 17:37:51 -0700
Subject: wiki update: decorator syntax breakdown
Message-ID: <d11dcfba.0408111637.30c8b012@posting.google.com>

Just wanted to let everyone know that I went through the wiki and
tried to consolidate some of the advantages/disadvantages of the
various syntax decisions:

http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/PythonDecorators (section 7)

Hopefully I've extracted most of the important points from the various
example syntaxes.

Steve


From skip at pobox.com  Fri Aug  6 11:57:39 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:57:39 -0500
Subject: [Newby question] List comprehension
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.06.13.22.50.75041@xs4all.nl>
References: <pan.2004.08.06.13.22.50.75041@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <16659.43635.246128.392807@montanaro.dyndns.org>

    Eelco> # song filter: will return true if the file seems to be an mp3 file. 
    Eelco> # (may not be the best way to do this)
    Eelco> def song(f):
    Eelco>     (name, ext) = os.path.splitext(f)
    Eelco>     return ext.lower() == '.mp3'

    Eelco> # list comprehension walking through a directory tree
    Eelco> [(root, filter(song, files)) for (root, dir, files) in os.walk(os.path.abspath('.')) if filter(song, files)]

In this particular case, since song() only returns True or False, you could
use

    [(root, True) for (root, dir, files) in os.walk(os.path.abspath('.'))
                      if filter(song, files)]

Skip


From npat at efault.net  Mon Aug 16 14:59:53 2004
From: npat at efault.net (Nick Patavalis)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:59:53 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
References: <mailman.1661.1092519005.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7x7js1i887.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<KZ4Uc.3975$QJ3.718@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <slrnci2118.h3l.npat@gray.efault.net>

On 2004-08-16, Bernhard Mulder <bwm at acm.org> wrote:
> If you want, you can yield across multiple levels by converting 
> functions into generators and calls into for loops.
>

Or while loops, if you don't know a-priori how many times you have to
call the generator. Yes this is possible, but unmaintainable (makes
the code impossibly tangled) to the point of been useless. The problem
with this specific approach if of-course that Python has no macros, so
you can't hide it somehow; it has to be repeated in the code *every*
*time*; this makes makes the code impossible to read.

/npat




From tiarno at sas.com  Mon Aug 16 07:45:53 2004
From: tiarno at sas.com (Tim Arnold)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 07:45:53 -0400
Subject: xml question
References: <mailman.1651.1092488767.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cfq6pm$mb0$1@license1.unx.sas.com>


"Ajay" <abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.1651.1092488767.5135.python-list at python.org...
> str = whiteSpaces[counter].nodeValue
> string.strip(str)
<snip>
> however this isn't working. when i print out all the elements in the
> document, i still get the whitespace text elements.

shouldn't str.strip() work instead?
--T




From jepler at unpythonic.net  Sat Aug 21 09:05:31 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 08:05:31 -0500
Subject: Files in unix and windows
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408201440270.4916-100000@pc64.cs.ucdavis.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408201440270.4916-100000@pc64.cs.ucdavis.edu>
Message-ID: <20040821130531.GB1458@unpythonic.net>

Which extra (back)slashes do you mean?  Do you mean that os.path.abspath
strips the trailing separator characters from its argument?

>>> os.path.abspath("../../../../etc/")
'/etc'
>>> os.path.normpath("./")
'.'

This behavior doesn't seem to be specifically documented.

If preserving the trailing '/' when present is important, you can easily
get this behavior using os.path.abspath:
    def myabspath(p):
        hadsep = p and p[-1] in (os.sep, os.altsep)
        p = os.path.abspath(p)
        if hadsep: p = p + os.sep
        return p

>>> myabspath('../../../../../etc/')
'/etc/'
>>> myabspath('../../../../../etc')
'/etc'

Jeff
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From alan.gauld at btinternet.com  Sun Aug 29 12:53:43 2004
From: alan.gauld at btinternet.com (Alan Gauld)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:53:43 GMT
Subject: A question??
References: <938a4680.0408252138.1580ac93@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <g224j0d62ojdktjrmi8p8e5ud6al472sfn@4ax.com>

On 25 Aug 2004 22:38:06 -0700, rattan at cps.cmich.edu (Ishwar
Rattan) wrote:

> def run(program, *args):
>     pid = os.fork()
>     if not pid:
>          os.execvp(program, (program,)+args)

> What is the interpretation of *args (in def run(..)?
> Looks like a reference to me, so, how does one decide when to use
> a reference or not?

Its not a reference its a placeholder for an unspecified number
of arguments. (Actually I think it's technically a tuple of
arguments?) You can think of it like the C va_arg construct 
used for functions like printf().

There is also a **args construct which is for a dictionary of
keyword arguments. I'm no expert on these but thats what they are
about.

Here is the url to the documentation:

http://docs.python.org/ref/function.html

HTH,

Alan G.

Author of the Learn to Program website
http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Wed Aug 11 14:55:34 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 18:55:34 GMT
Subject: Capturing repeating group matches in regular expressions
References: <mailman.1489.1092220861.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <GYtSc.1958$nu2.1849@fe2.texas.rr.com>

It's a bit wordy, but perhaps the ability to easily structure and retrieve
your returned tokens may sway you.

Download pyparsing at http://pyparsing.sourceforge.net

-- Paul


from pyparsing import Word,OneOrMore

# define parse grammar
lowers = "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz"
endsWithW = Word(lowers,"W",exact=2)
endsWithX = Word(lowers,"X",exact=2)
endsWithY = Word(lowers,"Y",exact=2)

patt = endsWithW.setResultsName("W") + \
       OneOrMore( endsWithX ).setResultsName("X") + \
       endsWithY.setResultsName("Y")

# extract tokens from input string
tokens = patt.parseString("aWbXcXdXeXfY")

# tokens can be accessed as a list
print "tokens:",tokens

# tokens can be coerced to be a true list
print "tokens.asList():",tokens.asList()

# tokens can be a dictionary, if results names specified
print "tokens.keys():",tokens.keys()
print "tokens['W']:",tokens['W']
print "tokens['X']:",tokens['X']
print "tokens['Y']:",tokens['Y']

# if results names are valid attribute names, can even look like attribute
print "tokens.W:",tokens.W
print "tokens.X:",tokens.X
print "tokens.Y:",tokens.Y


Gives:

tokens: ['aW', 'bX', 'cX', 'dX', 'eX', 'fY']
tokens.asList(): ['aW', 'bX', 'cX', 'dX', 'eX', 'fY']
tokens.keys(): ['Y', 'X', 'W']
tokens['W']: aW
tokens['X']: ['bX', 'cX', 'dX', 'eX']
tokens['Y']: fY
tokens.W: aW
tokens.X: ['bX', 'cX', 'dX', 'eX']
tokens.Y: fY





From pruebauno at latinmail.com  Tue Aug 31 17:22:31 2004
From: pruebauno at latinmail.com (nnes)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 14:22:31 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <mailman.1859.1092833285.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<889cbba0.0408181206.1812881c@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1900.1092860258.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Xns954A5141FF84JanC@213.118.38.197>
Message-ID: <d8778a53.0408311322.9ad0233@posting.google.com>

JanC <usenet_spam at janc.invalid> wrote in message news:<Xns954A5141FF84JanC at 213.118.38.197>...
> Gerardo Herzig -Departamento de Proyectos Especiales e Internet- Facultad 
> de Medicina schreef:
> 
> > 30 years old. First program at 11 (Basic) on ZX Spectrum.
> 
> /me too (now 30 & started with ZX Spectrum Basic at 11)

count another one, me too now 30 years, started with ZX Spectrum Basic at 11


From dalcolmo at vh-s.de  Wed Aug  4 03:35:08 2004
From: dalcolmo at vh-s.de (Josef Dalcolmo)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 09:35:08 +0200
Subject: converting to string
References: <mailman.1114.1091602995.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20040804093508.0000481f@titan>

on Wed, 04 Aug 2004 17:03:10 +1000
Ajay Brar <abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au> wrote:

> how do i go about converting a Python object or tuple to a string.

I guess the simplest is to use the built-in functions: str or repr

str(object) if you just need a printable string
repr(object) if you need to reconstruct later the original object from the string

- Josef


From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 16:09:49 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:09:49 -0700
Subject: passing globals to imported module
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1756.1092682856.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1756.1092682856.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10i252tsvv2lda4@corp.supernews.com>

James Tauber wrote:

>Had a question from a colleague that I embarrassingly couldn't answer.
>
>He has a script, foo.py with a global. He wants to import bar.py and
>needs that global available in bar.py
>
>  
>

#### global.py
my_global = "Hello!"


#### foo.py
import global, bar

print global.my_global


#### bar.py
import global

print global.my_global

;)

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From mwilson at the-wire.com  Tue Aug  3 09:45:04 2004
From: mwilson at the-wire.com (Mel Wilson)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 09:45:04 -0400
Subject: Reasoning behind nested scope
References: <mailman.1087.1091532385.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <gb5DBls/KvJY089yn@the-wire.com>

In article <mailman.1087.1091532385.5135.python-list at python.org>,
"Andy Baker" <andy at andybak.net> wrote:
>"This is because nested function definitions don't have access to the
>local variables of the surrounding block -- only to the globals of the
>containing module. This is done so that lookup of globals doesn't
>have to walk a chain of dictionaries -- as in C, there are just two
>nested scopes: locals and globals (and beyond this, built-ins).
>Therefore, nested functions have only a limited use. This was a
>deliberate decision, based upon experience with languages allowing
>arbitraries nesting such as Pascal and both Algols -- code with too
>many nested scopes is about as readable as code with too many GOTOs.
>And, of course, in Python, the "proper" way is to use an
>object-oriented programming style"
>
>This sounds reasonable to me although nested scope always struck me as more
>natural and intuitive ('Don't be surprising')
>
>I was wondering how the balance changed in favour of nested scope? What
>changed people's minds about 'readability' vs other factors? Are nested
>scopes still regarded as leading to spagetti code etc?

   I guess a consensus built up that the power/safety
tradeoff had given too much emphasis to safety.

   My own poster child for nested scopes is in some old post
on c.l.p . I wanted to build a lot of similar labelled text
controls in wxPython, following a naming convention.  I
could have written a function, but pre-nested-scope, any
change I made to the information used in building the
controls would have meant changing the function parameter
list, and all the function calls.  I came up with a template
string which got parameter substituted via the '%' operator,
and then `exec`ed so as code it had full access to all the
info that was in the contemporary scope.

   Post nested scope, any info the function needed from the
surrounding scope could simply be read from there.  The code
was much less unusual.

   I believe (without proof) that any language that won't
let me shoot myself in the foot will also prevent me doing
anything useful.  Debate is heating up now about write
access to enclosing scopes.  We'll see how strong my faith
really is.  People will be able to write function nests
instead of classes.

>(On a side note is there any way to call a nested function from outside the
>parent? I was kind of expecting nested functions to be addressable through
>dot notation like methods are but I can see why that wouldn't be quite
>right. This might be a better question for the tutor list...)

Yup.

    def f1 (a):
        if a:
            x = 2
        else:
            x = 3

        def f2 (y):
            return y % x

        return f2

    import os
    b = f1 (os.name.startswith ('p'))
    for c in range (10):
        print b (c)



                Regards.        Mel.


From peter at semantico.com  Thu Aug 19 04:40:47 2004
From: peter at semantico.com (Peter Hickman)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:40:47 +0100
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <m2oel889bx.fsf@pchoel.psh>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<2ohr0nFakl4sU1@uni-berlin.de> <m2oel889bx.fsf@pchoel.psh>
Message-ID: <41246790$0$1258$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk>

Berthold H?llmann wrote:
> Programming since more than 20 Years. UCSD Pascal on Apple //e and
> //c, FORTRAN, C, C++ and Python since more than 76 Years.

UCSD Pascal, ah that is a memory. The reason I never thought Java was such a big 
deal was my exposure to UCSD, a whole OS as a VM (if my memory serves)!


From giva at users.sourceforge.net  Tue Aug 17 14:29:55 2004
From: giva at users.sourceforge.net (Gisle Vanem)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 20:29:55 +0200
Subject: Swing/Metalworks for Python
Message-ID: <41224ea4$1@news.broadpark.no>

I was quite impressed by this toolkit in the latest Java SDK 1.5
(not sure if it's new in this version or not). But are there any similar
toolkits for Python that allows switching Look & Feel and Themes
in the same way?

--gv



From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 17 20:47:36 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 20:47:36 -0400
Subject: strange problem with def in class
In-Reply-To: <1092788477.995526@seven.kulnet.kuleuven.ac.be>
References: <1092788477.995526@seven.kulnet.kuleuven.ac.be>
Message-ID: <C42dnb-jFbC0Or_cRVn-vw@powergate.ca>

Johan wrote:
> I don't get it:
> I'm trying to write a "readfile" function which would replace some code from
[snip]
> but I can't define this function.... when I call the function the
> interpreter throws an exception of unknown function

> what am I doing wrong?

Not posting the actual traceback including the real error that
you are getting.  It will include the lines of source that
were involved and will help us help you...

-Peter


From mike1 at tumladen.net  Wed Aug 11 09:51:11 2004
From: mike1 at tumladen.net (Mike Greaves)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 06:51:11 -0700
Subject: class in IronPython?
References: <316f1dc0.0408110240.4c83fb42@posting.google.com>
	<Xns9542798386952duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <316f1dc0.0408110551.77c5befe@posting.google.com>

Duncan Booth <duncan.booth at invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:<Xns9542798386952duncanrcpcouk at 127.0.0.1>...

> I think you will find that classes don't (yet) work in interactive mode. 
> Try putting the class in a .py file and using that.

Thanks.  I *was* trying to debug a .py file in the first place... by
trying snippets of it interactively...  Then I failed to realize that
I was getting a *different* exception in interactive mode...

Mike Greaves


From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Sun Aug 29 00:01:13 2004
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 21:01:13 -0700
Subject: my first class: Args
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408282222370.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408271601530.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<4130cf9d@nntp0.pdx.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408282222370.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <41315680$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

Peter Kleiweg wrote:

...
> This is the only instance I didn't follow your recommendation to
> use try/except. It is a binary choice: do we use files given on
> the command line or stdin? Neither is more natural than the
> other. Also, it splits up lines of code that belong together.
> 
> Here is my re-write:
> 
>     def __iter__(self):
>         "iterator: set-up"
>         if self._argv:
>             self.infile = self._argv.pop(0)
>             self._in = open(self.infile, 'r')
>             self._stdin = False
>         else:
>             if sys.stdin.isatty():
>                 self.usage()  # Doesn't return
>             self.infile = '<stdin>'
>             self._in = sys.stdin
>             self._stdin = True
>         return self
> 
> The exceptional case is there be no input, and the simplest test
> here seems to be a simple if-statement.

Perfectly fine.  I probably lean on the "don't look before you leap"
a bit too heavily.  Remember, writing code is like writing in your
native language; it is more important to be clear than to match a
style.  Notice that you have a bit more structure now than originally.
A single top-level conditional is simpler to read; less needs to be
read to understand what is going on.

>>def demo():
>>     ...
>>
>>if __name__ == '__main__':
>>     demo()

> That doesn't seem very useful. It depends on command line
> arguments. If they are missing, it does a sys.exit(), probably
> not what you want unless you run the module stand-alone.

I missed the sys.argv -- here is a sketch of a slightly better rewrite:

 > class Args:
 >     """..."""
 >     def __init__(self,usage='Usage: %(progname)s [opt...] [file...]'):
 >         "init, usage string: embed program name as %(progname)s"
 >         self.progname = os.path.basename(sys.argv[0])
 > ...
 >         self._argv = sys.argv[1:]
   class Args:
       """..."""
       def __init__(self, progname, args,
                    usage='Usage: %(progname)s [opt...] [file...]'):
           "usage string: embed program name as %(progname)s"
           self.progname = progname
           self._argv = args
           ...


 > if __name__ == '__main__':
 >     ...

   def demo(progname, args):
       a = Args(progname, args,
         'Usage: %(progname)s [-a value] [-b value] [-c] word [file...]')
       ...

if __name__ == '__main__':
      demo(sys.argv[0], sys.argv[1:])


---

In idle, the exit can be stopped (so it is not a huge worry).  If
nothing else you can do:
         try:  demo('name', ['abc', 'def']}
         except SystemExit: pass

Cutting into sys.argv is, however, a bit tougher usually.


-Scott David Daniels
Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org


From adurdin at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 01:04:01 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:04:01 +1000
Subject: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was Decorator syntax)
In-Reply-To: <6LWdnZCpvI7Ico_cRVn-hw@giganews.com>
References: <6LWdnZCpvI7Ico_cRVn-hw@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a0408052204197cd056@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 22:39:19 -0400, Istvan Albert
<ialbert at mailblocks.com> wrote:
> 
> Ladies and Gents, start your engines and rally around
> this syntax (if you prefer it of course) so that there
> is evidence that it should be taken as a serious candidate.

+1

I greatly prefer it over the @ syntax.


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Fri Aug 13 09:22:38 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:22:38 -0400
Subject: multiline snippets with triple quotes
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1580.1092362912.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <cfgff0$p3o$1@online.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121559220.11006-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1580.1092362912.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408130916110.25668-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, gohaku wrote:

> Can dedent capture indents or tabs also...
> I noticed that if I do the following:
> snip = '''<html>blah blah
> 			</html>'''
> Tabs are included with snip.

dedent() will return that string as is, since the <html> tag is already in
the left-most position.  If you do something like this, however:

snip = '''\
		<html>blah blah
			</html>'''

dedent() will flush the <html> tag left, and the </html> tag will be 
indented by one tab (since it has a one-tab indent relative to <html>).

> Is there a heredocs (don't know why it's called that) equivalent in 
> Python?

AFAIK, triple quotes do everything heredocs do (but with a cleaner 
syntax!); the following produce identical output:

bash heredocs:

echo -n <<EOF
Some text.
  Woo!
The end.
EOF

Python triple quotes:

print '''\
Some text.
  Woo!
The end.'''



From FBatista at uniFON.com.ar  Wed Aug 18 15:56:00 2004
From: FBatista at uniFON.com.ar (Batista, Facundo)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:56:00 -0300
Subject: age of Python programmers
Message-ID: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C77EE@escpl.tcp.com.ar>

I'm 29; used python for last two years.


From otto.wyss at orpatec.ch  Thu Aug 26 17:01:46 2004
From: otto.wyss at orpatec.ch (Otto Wyss)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 23:01:46 +0200
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<2a56f6a3.0408252257.4f1f92e@posting.google.com>
	<2p5j10FesankU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <1gj4z06.14nwnzs1d0kno4N%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>

Tassilo v. Parseval <tassilo.von.parseval at rwth-aachen.de> wrote:

> It would, if anyone could take Xah Lee Loo seriously. But really, no one
> can. He's more like the court jester, creeping out of the dark every so
> and so months. We're all very much enjoying his sporadic shows. Really.
> 
> ;-)
> 
No offense but could you add some references so anyone can make up is
own opinion?

O. Wyss

-- 
How to enhance your code, see "http://freshmeat.net/projects/wxguide/"


From justin__devine at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 25 12:20:06 2004
From: justin__devine at hotmail.com (Justin)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 09:20:06 -0700
Subject: Desperately needing Help with 2 features of a program
In-Reply-To: <cgichq$a8d$05$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <cgie7m$4r1@odbk17.prod.google.com>

Well, I think looking at the source is key in this case because my
problems are with encapsulation, so the class structure of the source
would need to be seen.


Diez B. Roggisch wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
> Asking people to download your program and simply add features is a
little
> bit too much I fear....
>
> Read this:
>
> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>
> And then post why and where your concrete attempts fail. Thats much
more
> likely to get answers.
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> 
> Diez B. Roggisch



From goden at simplified.com  Thu Aug 19 23:25:23 2004
From: goden at simplified.com (Eugene Oden)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 03:25:23 GMT
Subject: Rita Sue and Bob too
References: <cg3ksb$bg5$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <DaeVc.2752$mZ4.150@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com>

M. Clift wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
> Can someone help. I promise I've looked how to do this but can't find a
> way...
> 
> Ok, to find one name is easy
> 
> if 'Bob' in list:
>     print "They were found"
> else:
>     print "They are not in list"
> 
> But, how to I find a sequence in a list of unknown size? i.e. this
> sequence in list of other names and replace it with three others?
> 
> 'Rita','Sue','Bob'
> 
> This is almost a nightly occurrence (my posting questions), but I am
> learning : )

here's my stab at it:

def findSequence(seq, search):
   """returns the index where search can be found in seq where search and
      seq are both sequences.
   """
   searchLength = len(search)

   for i in range(len(seq)-searchLength+1):
      compare = seq[i:i+searchLength+1]

      if search == seq[i:i+searchLength]:
         return i

   raise ValueError, 'sequence %s is not in list' % str(search)

someList = ['Joe', 'Rita', 'Sue', 'Bob', 'Peter']
searchList = ['Rita', 'Sue', 'Bob']

i = findSequence(someList, searchList)
someList[i:i+len(searchList)] = ['Paul', 'John', 'James']
# someList is now ['Joe', 'Paul', 'John', 'James', 'Peter']

findSequence(someList, searchList) # raises ValueError



From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Tue Aug 10 23:46:43 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 03:46:43 GMT
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar,
	but for what exactly? (decorator libraries).
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
	<mailman.1352.1091953503.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-0D45FB.09322108082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1467.1092158118.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <df5jh0l431m68cv7tf1li3b47jgi7dphlt@4ax.com>

>
>Yes (using a class instead of a module simply for convenience):
>
>    class martha:
>        memo = {}
>
>        @staticmethod
>        def memoize(func):
>            if func not in martha.memo:
>                martha.memo[func] = {}
>            def _inner(*args, **kwds):
>                items = kwds.items()
>                items.sort()
>                items = tuple(items)
>                key = (args, items)
>                try:
>                    val = martha.memo[key]
>                except KeyError:
>                    val = func(*args, **kwds)
>                    martha.memo[key] = val
>                return val
>            return _inner
>
>    @martha.memoize
>    def fib(n):
>        assert n >= 0
>        print n
>        if n <= 1:
>            return 1
>        return n + fib(n-1)
>
>    print fib(5)
>    print fib(4)
>
>Running that yields this output:
>
>    5
>    4
>    3
>    2
>    1
>    15
>    10
>
>Skip

Is it me, or this a chilling argument agaisnt where things are going. 

I understand it is illustrative, and nobdy is advertiging it as
anything else.

But when there is a lot less going on than meets the eye ...

not good.

Art


From tim.leslie at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 23:01:44 2004
From: tim.leslie at gmail.com (Tim Leslie)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:01:44 +1000
Subject: Logical lines of code counter
In-Reply-To: <2ot090Fe5442U1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <2ot090Fe5442U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <d32b453504082220012dcce986@mail.gmail.com>

If you want something which can do this and so much more, have a look at pylint.

http://www.logilab.org/projects/pylint

Cheers,

Tim

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:44:17 -0400, Leif K-Brooks <eurleif at ecritters.biz> wrote:
> I got bored with working on larger projects and wrote a little
> script/module for counting logical (not physical) lines of Python code
> in a file or directory. It uses ASTs generated by compiler.parse instead
> of text manipulation functions, so it isn't incredibly fast, but the
> speed is good enough to be usable for me.
> 
> If you want to take a look, the file is at
> <http://ecritters.biz/linecount.py>. I don't really care about how
> people license their modifications (and the GPL is longer than the
> script itself), so it's licensed under the MIT License.
> 
> I'm sure there are a few bugs (AST nodes I forgot to count?), and I'd
> appreciate being emailed if anyone finds one.
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From wweston at att.net  Mon Aug  9 12:25:07 2004
From: wweston at att.net (wes weston)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 16:25:07 GMT
Subject: berkeley db delete problem?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1394.1092062211.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1394.1092062211.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <DzNRc.190602$OB3.110808@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>

Oliver Peek wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Probably my fault, I'm opening a Berkeley DB
> file, iterating through and deleting keys, well
> making an attempt.  I get this error when I try
> to delete.
> 
> ---error
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "./db.py", line 41, in ?
>     db.delete()
> AttributeError: delete
> ---end error
> 
> Below is a code snippet:
> ---code
> #!/usr/bin/python
> 
> import bsddb
> 
> db = bsddb.btopen('./test.db', 'r')
> 
> rec = db.first()
> while rec:
> 	key, val = rec
> 	db.delete()
> 	rec = db.next()
> 
> db.close()
> ---end code
> 
> I have full code that opens and goes through and
> prints the key and value and opens another db
> file and inserts the key/data into that new db
> file, but I need to delete the data out of the
> master db file once it's been updated in the
> smaller ones.
> 
> I've also tried db.delete(key) with no luck,
> db.del(), db.del(key), db[key]='', and lots of
> other silly attempts, but nothing works.
> 
> Thanks,
> Oliver
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 

Oliver,
   How bout del db[key]
wes



From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Sun Aug 29 06:58:57 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 12:58:57 +0200
Subject: regex into str
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.29.01.54.57.901288@jerf.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408290203530.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<mailman.2571.1093744862.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408290406250.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<pan.2004.08.29.01.54.57.901288@jerf.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408291253300.1159-100000@kleigh.nl>

Jeremy Bowers schreef:

> On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 04:08:57 +0200, Peter Kleiweg wrote:
> > This works:
> >
> >     a += 'x'
>
> In the sense you mean, no it doesn't.

I mean in the sense it does, and in that sense it does.

>
> Python 2.3.4 (#1, Jun  8 2004, 17:41:43)
> [GCC 3.3.3 20040217 (Gentoo Linux 3.3.3, propolice-3.3-7)] on linux2
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
> >>> a = 'a'
> >>> a
> 'a'
> >>> id(a)
> 1074037376
> >>> a += 'b'
> >>> a
> 'ab'
> >>> id(a)
> 1074272448
>
> Note the two different id numbers. 'a' and 'ab' are not the same string.

That is not relevant. What matters is that a += 'b' does what it
is supposed to do.


> > Is there a way to tell Python that '' should be something else
> > than str?
>
> No.

Bummer.


-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From jepler at unpythonic.net  Tue Aug 31 10:11:37 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:11:37 -0500
Subject: Splitting a list
In-Reply-To: <41A1CBC76FDECC42B67946519C6677A9018C2F6B@pippin.int.etrials.com>
References: <41A1CBC76FDECC42B67946519C6677A9018C2F6B@pippin.int.etrials.com>
Message-ID: <20040831141137.GB7876@unpythonic.net>

Here's my version as a generator function:
    def split(it, elem):
        l = []
        for i in it:
            if i == elem:
                yield l
                l = []
            else:
                l.append(i)
        yield l

>>> list(split(" a b c ", " "))
[[], ['a'], ['b'], ['c'], []]
>>> " a b c ".split(" ")
['', 'a', 'b', 'c', '']
>>> l = [1,2,3,-1,4,5,-1,8,9]
>>> list(split(l, -1))
[[1, 2, 3], [4, 5], [8, 9]]

Jeff
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From timr at probo.com  Sun Aug 22 00:56:51 2004
From: timr at probo.com (Tim Roberts)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:56:51 -0700
Subject: [Q] Bug in cgi.FieldStorage?
References: <mailman.2046.1093008628.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <op9gi0p4va7tui5gc4o2c5b6bc540atah5@4ax.com>

"Ames Andreas (MPA/DF)" <Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com> wrote:
>
>I'm currently using Zope 2.7.2-0 which in turn uses cgi.FieldStorage
>from Python 2.3.4.
>
>FieldStorage can either build a 'list' or a 'file' to represent a
>request.  Unfortunately it overwrites __len__ such that it throws an
>exception when the request wasn't of type 'multipart', i.e. when it
>doesn't 'return' a list but a file.  I'd consider this a bug because
>if you have an instance fs of FieldStorage you can't safely write
>
>if fs:
>   ...

What question do you intuitively expect that statement to be asking?

I've been using cgi.FieldStorage() for quite a while, and I can't say that
I have ever wanted to write a statement like that.
-- 
- Tim Roberts, timr at probo.com
  Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.


From and-google at doxdesk.com  Mon Aug 16 06:52:32 2004
From: and-google at doxdesk.com (Andrew Clover)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 03:52:32 -0700
Subject: A email.cgi script
References: <cfni2i$j0f$1@news.hgc.com.hk>
Message-ID: <2c60a528.0408160252.29483ed@posting.google.com>

wonder <a at b.com> wrote:

> Is there any sample python script can do that?

Not that I know of, but it's pretty simple. Your script seems to cover
it, except for some security issues:

> msg = "From: %s\r\nTo: %s\r\nSubject: %s\r\n\r\n" % (fromaddr, toaddr, 
> subject)

'subject' comes directly from a form submission but has not been
sanitised and can contain control characters. (Some form handling
software will remove them automatically for you, but the 'cgi' module
does not.)

So if an attacker inserts a '\n' into the subject field they can add
arbitrary headers and body content to the mail you are sending out.
You probably don't want that.

>      print "Content-type: text/html"
>      print
>      print ack_text

Here the text is not HTML-escaped. An attacker can send a user to the
form script with an ack_text parameter of
'<script>alert(document.cookie)</script>' or similar
cross-site-scripting exploits. If your site is not particularly
sensitive this might not be a problem for you, but's it's a bad idea
in general.

> it does not display To and From editbox in the webpage for user type in
> their addresses

If you allow both the 'To' address and arbitrary message text to be
supplied, your script is very likely going to be spending most of its
life sending spam!

-- 
Andrew Clover
mailto:and at doxdesk.com


From blaktyger at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 16 18:06:28 2004
From: blaktyger at hotmail.com (Blaktyger)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 15:06:28 -0700
Subject: Displaying images stored as binary in MySQL
References: <c9e6ac92.0408122047.1e3a4309@posting.google.com>
	<cfifm8$3bn$1@online.de>
	<c9e6ac92.0408131626.7f5c8951@posting.google.com>
	<cfpvas$607$1@online.de>
Message-ID: <c9e6ac92.0408161406.6c201db0@posting.google.com>

Benjamin Niemann <b.niemann at betternet.de> wrote in message news:<cfpvas$607$1 at online.de>...
> >>>How can this be done? Images are stored in a LONGBLOB field. When I
> >>>try to display them, it prints out the binary data as it is...
> >>
> >>Display where? On local screen, in a webbrowser?
> >>Assuming the first one, see post by Tom.
> >>Assuming the second one (you're writing a cgi,mod_python... program), 
> >>did you set the content-type in the http header correctly?
> > 
> > In a webbrowser...
> > this is my code...
> > 
> > #!/usr/bin/python2.3
> > 
> > print 'Content-Type:image/jpeg\n\n'
> You must use '\r\n' to terminate header lines. I'm not really sure, but 
> maybe there should also be a spacing between ':' and 'image/jpeg'...
> If you are using e.g. FireFox as a browser, you can user 'View Page 
> Info' to see, if the browser correctly understands, what you are trying 
> to tell it ('Type' should say 'image/jpeg').
> 
> > import blakHtml, sys
> > sys.stderr = sys.stdout
> > import MySQLdb
> > import urllib
> > import cgi
> > import time
> > prevPg=blakHtml.HTMLDocument()
> > newConnection=MySQLdb.connect(host='localhost', user='blaktyger', \
> >                                            passwd='****', db='photoFamille')
> > curseur=newConnection.cursor()
> > 
> > sqlCmdFr="""SELECT *  FROM photo"""
> > curseur.execute(sqlCmdFr)
> > resultats = curseur.fetchall()
> > p=0
> > for val in resultats:
> >     p=p+1
> >     #print '<img src=" ' + val[5]+ ' " ' +' >' THIS DOES NOT WORK
> >     print val[5]
> > newConnection.close()
> > I know there is no HTML code but this is just a test...
> val[5] contains the raw image data (not a path), correct? Does 'photo' 
> contains more than one image? Concatenating several images into one 
> bytestream, is definitly not what you want.

val[5] contains only one image but I saw that when printing out val[5]
is that the binary data is in a array. So this i what I did...

import array
[same code as before except for this... ]

print 'Content-Type: image/jpeg\r\n'
[...]
for val in resultats:
    p=p+1
    img=''
    t=''
    # t is an array object. the tostring() argument extracts the
binary data
    t=val[5].tostring()
    print t
and it works!
Thanks for your help Ben!


From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Aug  5 17:54:03 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 23:54:03 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
In-Reply-To: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no>
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <4112AC7B.1060508@v.loewis.de>

Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
> Now that the '-*- coding: <charset> -*-' feature has arrived,
> I'd like to see an addition:
> 
>   # -*- str7bit:True -*-
> 
>   After the source file has been converted to Unicode, cause a parse
>   error if a non-u'' string contains a non-7bit source character.
> 
> It can be used to ensure that the source file doesn't contain national
> characters that the program will treat as characters in the current
> locale's character set instead of in the source file's character set.

I doubt this helps as much as you'd like. You will need to change every
source file with that annotation. While you are at it, you could just
as well check every source file directly.

So if anything, I think this should be a global option. Or, better yet,
external checkers like pychecker could check for that.

Regards,
Martin


From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Thu Aug 26 19:06:20 2004
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:06:20 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <412e6e7e$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

Robert Brewer wrote:

> This is a call for all who wish to sign the proposal, either for,
> against, or abstaining.

Count me as a "for" (although I don't really have anywhere as much
dislike of "@" as many of my co-signers).

-Scott Davd Daniels
Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org


From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Wed Aug  4 13:48:49 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 10:48:49 -0700
Subject: converting to string
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1113.1091602990.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1113.1091602990.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10h28b0n1ovs110@corp.supernews.com>

Ajay wrote:

>hi!
>
>how do i go about converting a Python object or tuple to a string.
>i am currently doing
>import cPickle as pickle
>str = pickle.dumps(obj)
>
>is thate efficient? is that the best way to do it?
>  
>

The "best way to do it" depends very much on what sort of data you're 
trying to convert, and what you intend to do with the string once you 
have it.  (One could argue ;) that the "best way" would require *not* 
using the name 'str' to store your string, since that will mask the name 
of the builtin str() function -- which function might actually do what 
you want, given the extremely vague description of your requirements.)

Pickle is intended to create a serialized version of an object, i.e. one 
that can be saved to disk or sent through a network port and later 
restored to active use.  The fact that this serialized version is a 
string is really just an implementation detail, though it's one that's 
extremely unlikely to change.

If what you really want is a displayable string representation of your 
object/tuple, you might be better off using str() or repr(), possibly 
playing with the object's __str__() or __repr__() methods in order to 
get it to display itself usefully.  These won't necessarily let you 
reconstruct the object from the string, but then you don't list that as 
a requirement.

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From nobody at nowhere.com  Tue Aug 24 14:49:29 2004
From: nobody at nowhere.com (Fred)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:49:29 +0200
Subject: Building basic dialog in Windows?
References: <bp0ni09fofpahse8uoa4l3hdmq5lmi61rr@4ax.com>
	<y8k4v1hb.fsf@python.net>
Message-ID: <873ni0l3t2opc1bcaqf6vmuusr0sqah4pg@4ax.com>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:24:00 +0200, Thomas Heller <theller at python.net>
wrote:
>You've missed venster http://venster.sf.net/

Oops :-) It's still alpha and documentation barely exists, so I guess
PythonWin/pywin32 looks like a better choice.

>I think pywin32 has what you need, the makepy utility displays such a
>progress dialog when creating python wrappers for large typelibraries.

OK, I'll check it out. It seems like pywin32 is meant for C++
developers who are already proficient with MFC, and the only
documentation is pretty much the scripts that comes with the software,
but I'll try to figure it out and extract what I need.

Thank you
Fred.


From klachemin at home.com  Thu Aug 19 04:32:10 2004
From: klachemin at home.com (Kamilche)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 01:32:10 -0700
Subject: CODE: Generic Sort Routine
Message-ID: <889cbba0.0408190032.335e1713@posting.google.com>

I've written a generic sort routine that will sort dictionaries,
lists, or tuples, either by a specified key or by value.

Comments welcome!

import types

def sort(container, key = None, ascending = True):
    ' Sort lists or dictionaries by the specified key'
    t = type(container)
    if t in (types.ListType, types.TupleType):
        thelist = container
    else:
        thelist = container.values()
    if key:
        sorted = zip([getattr(item, key) for item in thelist],
thelist)
    else:
        sorted = list(thelist)
    sorted.sort()
    if ascending == False:
        sorted.reverse()
    if key:
        return [x[1] for x in sorted]
    else:
        return sorted

class simple:
    name = 'simple'
    def __init__(self, word):
        self.word = word
    def __repr__(self):
        return str(self.__dict__)

def test():
    # Set up the test data
    line = 'now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of
their country.'
    words = line.split(' ')
    compareto = line.split(' ')
    compareto.sort()
    assert words != compareto
    objects = []
    for word in words:
        o = simple(word)
        objects.append(o)

    # Sort a list of words
    test1 = sort(words)
    assert test1 == compareto

    # Sort a list of objects
    lst = sort(objects, 'word')
    test2 = []
    for item in lst:
        test2.append(item.word)
    assert(test2 == compareto)

    # Sort a tuple of objects
    tup = tuple(objects)
    lst = sort(tup, 'word')
    test3 = []
    for item in lst:
        test3.append(item.word)
    assert(test3 == compareto)

    # Sort a dict of objects
    d = {}
    ctr = 1
    for item in objects:
        d[ctr] = item
        ctr += 1
    lst = sort(d, 'word')
    test4 = []
    for item in lst:
        test4.append(item.word)
    assert(test4 == compareto)

    # Reverse sort a dict of objects
    d = {}
    ctr = 1
    for item in objects:
        d[ctr] = item
        ctr += 1
    lst = sort(d, 'word', False)
    test4 = []
    for item in lst:
        test4.append(item.word)
    compareto.reverse()
    assert(test4 == compareto)

    # Sort a list of numbers
    lst = [5, 9, 3, 54, 6, 65.7, 2.4, 9999]
    lst = sort(lst)
    print lst

    # Done
    print "All tests passed!"

if __name__ == "__main__":
    test()


From fuf at mageo.cz  Thu Aug 19 11:05:56 2004
From: fuf at mageo.cz (Michal Vitecek)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:05:56 +0200
Subject: how to tell if x is an instance of new class?
Message-ID: <20040819150556.GA24749@foof.i3.cz>

 hello,

 i'm (once again) fighting with python C API. i'm simply unable to
 determine whether 'x' is an instance of new class or not.

 result of PyObject_Type(x) is unusable, PyType_Check(x) returns 0,
 PyType_IsSubtype(x->ob_type, &PyType_Type) returns 0,
 PyType_IsSubtype((PyTypeObject *)x, &PyType_Type) returns 0...
 
 how come there's no *easy-and-immediately-obvious* way to get such an
 important information? what am i missing?

        HELP!
-- 
		fuf		(fuf at mageo.cz)


From nytimes at swiftdsl.com.au  Fri Aug 20 10:38:07 2004
From: nytimes at swiftdsl.com.au (huy)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:38:07 +1000
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1884.1092846477.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>	<dave.opstad-73EBC2.07415018082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
	<mailman.1884.1092846477.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <41260c4a$0$27219$61ce578d@news.syd.swiftdsl.com.au>

Skip Montanaro wrote:
>     Dave> Python fits my brain.
> 
> I agree.  This gets my nod for QOTW.
> 
> Skip

Lucky for me I found python before Java took over my brain.

Huy


From ej  Mon Aug 16 20:11:18 2004
From: ej (Erik Johnson)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:11:18 -0600
Subject: os.system(), HTTPServer, and finishing HTTP requests
References: None <41201e06@nntp.zianet.com> <1092631376.357585@yasure>
Message-ID: <41214c28$1@nntp.zianet.com>

Ah.... Thank you for your reply, Donn. I am not much of a systems programmer
(obviously) and was thinking that system() calls were implemented
fundamentally
different than fork().

For anyone else who might be reading...
Using str(os.fstat()) to print the file descriptors, I was a little
surprised to find 3, 4, 5, 6 all in
 use and having identical parameters (0, 1, & 2 being STDIN, STDOUT,
STDERR).
I'm not sure why those would all be open, but this little bit seems to
resolve the problem
(it throws OSError when it hits the first invalid file descriptor).

for fd in xrange(3, 256):
    try:
        os.close(fd)
    except OSError:
        break

If you know a better/smarter way to effect the same thing, I'd be glad to
hear about it.

Thanks again! :)
-ej


"Donn Cave" <donn at drizzle.com> wrote in message
news:1092631376.357585 at yasure...
> Quoth "Erik Johnson" <ej <at> wellkeeper <dot> com>:
> ...
> |      But if I make this same os.system() call from within my own
HTTPServer,
> | then the browser that is making the request is left hanging until that
> | sleeping grandchild is done. It's like there is still a socket
connection
> | between it and my browser?!? But the grandchild is not forked from the
> | server - it's an os.system() call!  It should not be inherting any file
> | descriptors and such, right?
>
> On the contrary, system() does call fork - basically,
>
>    def system(command):
>        pid = fork()
>        if pid:
>            return waitpid(pid, 0)[1]
>        else:
>            execve('/bin/sh', ['sh', '-c', command], environ)
>
> and indeed file descriptors will be inherited.  You'll
> have to explicitly close the socket.
>
> Donn Cave, donn at drizzle.com




From jbperez808 at wahoo.com  Fri Aug  6 15:38:35 2004
From: jbperez808 at wahoo.com (Jon Perez)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 03:38:35 +0800
Subject: generating uuids / guids
In-Reply-To: <7x8ycs9k6v.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
References: <2nhnrfF13jq0U1@uni-berlin.de> <7x8ycs9k6v.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <2ni4iiF16cprU1@uni-berlin.de>

The DCE/OSF uuids I see in Linux ('uuidgen' command)and the Windows
guids look like they are the same format.  They have the same number
of hex digits (although their generation methods may be different).
It would be good to have the same function interface for either.

Paul Rubin wrote:

> Why do you say that adding Windows GUID generation to non-Windows
> platforms would be Pythonic?  Yeesh.


From m.hadfield at niwa.co.nz  Tue Aug 10 19:43:18 2004
From: m.hadfield at niwa.co.nz (Mark Hadfield)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:43:18 +1200
Subject: IDLE vs Command Line
In-Reply-To: <8PidncxTb4muxITcRVn-oQ@adelphia.com>
References: <8PidncxTb4muxITcRVn-oQ@adelphia.com>
Message-ID: <cfbmil$581$2@newsreader.mailgate.org>

Jesse B. wrote:
> I like to work with xemacs, so I've been coding modules with xemacs and
> running them using the dos prompt (using windows port of xemacs). Some
> scripts that work fine with IDLE don't work at the dos prompt. For example:
> 
> import random
> 
> for i in range(10):
>     x = random.random()
>     print x
> 
> This simple script doesn't work if  I use the command prompt, with this
> syntax: python random.py
> 
> I am just wondering why that is.

Because you have given the script the same name as the module you're 
importing, so the script tries to import itself?


-- 
Mark Hadfield            "Ka puwaha te tai nei, Hoea tatou"
m.hadfield at niwa.co.nz
National Institute for Water and Atmospheric Research (NIWA)

xxx
xxx
xxx
xxx
xxx
xxx
xxx
xxx
xxx



From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Sun Aug 22 13:26:39 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 10:26:39 -0700
Subject: 100 % portable ?
References: <rp_Vc.221989$xO.10939509@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
Message-ID: <sl1nv1-7jm.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

Vent d'Est - East Wind wrote:
> i want to know how i can be sure at 100 % that my programme is portable
> (i dont want code each times i use other system )

You will have to run your program on all platforms.  The Python
library documentation pages tell you which platform the modules
are on.  The vast majority are on all.

Note that for some things you would want different code.  For
example the default location to save files may be My Documents
on Windows and $HOME on Linux and Mac.  Similarly you would
want to save configuration settings in the registry on Windows
and dot files on Linux and Mac.

> i suppose for GUI is same

My preferred toolkit is the wxPython wrapper around wxWidgets.
Wherever possible it uses native widgets.  It also has functionality
often lacked by other toolkits such as printing, keyboard,
configuration (backend to registry, files etc).

Just to give you some idea, in my 30,000 line program there are
5 tests to see what platform it is running on, specifically to
ensure appropriate defaults etc for the platform.

For the gui, there are two programs you can try that use wxPython.

    http://dotamatic.sf.net
    http://bitpim.org

Both are open source so you can see for yourself.  Both use the
clipboard, do printing, have online help, are distributed so
that the user doesn't need Python on their machine already etc.

Roger 




From robin at reportlab.com  Mon Aug  9 06:18:30 2004
From: robin at reportlab.com (Robin Becker)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 11:18:30 +0100
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1381.1092046190.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu>	<cf3b56$gt6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>	<du7smayidxy.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>	<Xns953F7763A998cpl19ghumspamgourmet@195.20.224.116>	<cf4ub3$msb$1@namru.matavnet.hu>	<Xns953F8910730B8cpl19ghumspamgourmet@195.20.224.116>
	<mailman.1381.1092046190.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <41174F76.5030101@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>

Christian Tismer wrote:

.......
> 
> Trying to call func via an instance also doesn't work:
> 
>  >>> inst = MyClass()
>  >>> inst.func(2, 3)
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<interactive input>", line 1, in ?
> TypeError: func() takes exactly 2 arguments (3 given)
>  >>>
> 
> Now, with the mentioned extra line, the function object is
> modified in a way that it understands that it is an ordinary
> function, and it works in both cases:
> 
>  >>> class MyClass(object):
> ...     def func(arg1, arg2):
> ...         return arg1 + arg2
> ...     func=staticmethod(func)
> ...    
>  >>> MyClass.func(2, 3)
> 5
>  >>> inst = MyClass()
>  >>> inst.func(2, 3)
> 5
>  >>>
> 

Isn't robustness an issue with the @ decorator as well? The most important 
symbol can be omitted without causing a syntax error, but I suppose the same can 
be argued for any of the unary operations.
-- 
Robin Becker


From dperl at rogers.com  Mon Aug 30 15:32:47 2004
From: dperl at rogers.com (Dan Perl)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 19:32:47 GMT
Subject: initializing mutable class attributes
References: <J4zYc.102357$UTP.98636@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>	<1gjc8cs.sqvo1v1fhabdjN%aleaxit@yahoo.com><eTHYc.205$yqJ1.68@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<mailman.2624.1093889688.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <zhLYc.1878$JFK1.966@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>


"Shalabh Chaturvedi" <shalabh at cafepy.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2624.1093889688.5135.python-list at python.org...
> 'Why' is a very subjective question. People from different backgrounds
> may accept very different answers for why since it may always be in a
> specific context (why this instead of *that*?). The following is my idea
> of why:
>
> In Python you either have an __init__ or you don't. There is no 'default
> constructor' - or if there is, it does nothing. Since attributes can be
> dynamically added to an instance (not just in __init__ but in any
> method), it follows that the standard practice is to initialize instance
> members in __init__ as it is always called before any other instance
> method. Now that there is one way to do a thing, Python avoids the
> introduction of another way (unless it is notably more productive). That
> would lead to a whole set of questions about 'which way is better?
> __init__ or the other way?'.

It is a subjective issue indeed.  But I'll restrict my question to a simpler
question.  By analogy to C++ and Java, why is __init__ not implemented to
automatically invoke the __init__(self) of the parent classes?  I'm
beginning to see a reason here, which is that C++ and Java allow you to
overload the constructor and have a default constructor at the same time as
another constructor with arguments.  C++ and Java then force you to create a
default constructor for a parent class, even if it's empty, if you create a
non-default constructor for it and you subclass the parent class.

In contrast, Python does not allow method overloading and I'm OK with that.
It's a simplification that allows using Python in ways that are not possible
with C++ and Java.  So Python cannot force you to have a 'default' __init__
and allow you to have 'non-default '__init__'s at the same time.  I am
answering my own question here, but that's OK and it would not have happened
without this discussion.

> Btw, now that there are descriptors, you can create descriptors that
> initialize instance members with default values when they are accessed.
> However, unless there is great advantage in your specific case, it might
> be just better to follow standard practice and make it easier for
> everyone else reading your code.

I'll have to look more into descriptors, I haven't used them yet and I see
there are many discussions on the topic in this newsgroup.  I found your
"Python Attributes and Methods" page on cafepy.com and I'll take a look
there.  Thanks!

Dan




From ian at emit.demon.co.uk  Sat Aug 21 11:11:40 2004
From: ian at emit.demon.co.uk (Ian McConnell)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:11:40 +0100
Subject: Parsing C header files with python
Message-ID: <873c2gzftf.fsf@emit.demon.co.uk>

I've got a header file which lists a whole load of C functions of the form

  int func1(float *arr, int len, double arg1);
  int func2(float **arr, float *arr2, int len, double arg1, double arg2);

It's a numerical library so all functions return an int and accept varying
combinations of float pointers, ints and doubles. 

What's the easiest way breaking down this header file into a list of
functions and their argument using python? Is there something that will
parse this (Perhaps a protoize.py) ? I don't want (or understand!) a full C
parser, just this simple case.

It seems like someone should have done something like this before, but
googling for python, header file and protoize just gives me information on
compiling python. If there isn't anything I'll have a go with regexps.

The reason of parsing the header file is because I want to generate (using
python) a wrapper allow the library to be called from a different language.
I've only got to generate this wrapper once, so the python doesn't have to
be efficient.

Thanks,
        Ian



-- 
 "Thinks: I can't think of a thinks. End of thinks routine": Blue Bottle


From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 03:06:58 2004
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 00:06:58 -0700
Subject: Python and C, looking for a C IDE
References: <6f402501.0408240353.2a5b8a84@posting.google.com>
	<412B5DE8.1BE3@zeusedit.com>
Message-ID: <6f402501.0408242306.7a39a47a@posting.google.com>

Jussi Jumppanen <jussij at zeusedit.com> wrote in message news:<412B5DE8.1BE3 at zeusedit.com>...
> Michael Foord wrote:
> 
> > That aside - Pyrex looks the kiddie. Can anyone reccomend a reasonable
> > C IDE ? An 'IDE' would be nice, but an editor might be sufficient.
> 
> Take a look at the Zeus for Windows programmers editor:
> 
>    http://www.zeusedit.com/lookmain.html
> 
> Zeus supports Python, C/C++ and almost any other language. Some of 
> the programming features include:
> 
>   + Code completion and intellisensing
>   + Integrated class browser
>   + Project/workspace management
>   + Fully configurable syntax highlighting
>   + Seamless FTP editing
>   + Integrated version control using the Microsoft Source Code
>      Control (SCC) interface, including CVS integration.
>   + Quick Help context sensitive help engine
>   + Fully scriptable using Python
> 
> There is also a tutorial (see the Start Button, Programs, Zeus for 
> Windows, Tutorials) that explains how to setup the Ming compiler 
> and debugger (Windows ports of gcc and gdb) to work with Zeus.
> 
> Jussi Jumppanen
> http://www.zeusedit.com


Wow... scriptable with python sounds good.

Regards,


Fuzzy

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sun Aug  8 07:58:26 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 21:58:26 +1000
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
In-Reply-To: <41160A17.2090708@jessikat.fsnet.co.uk>
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu>
	<41160A17.2090708@jessikat.fsnet.co.uk>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204080804584a8d0dfe@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 12:10:15 +0100, Robin Becker
<robin at spamremovejessikat.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> As a final silliness (or perhaps miracle) this can apparently all be
> done in python using code from PJ Eby so a standard decorate mechanism
> could have gone into the library while the Gods argue.

PJE's implementation is pretty nasty. There's no way that would go into
a released version of Python. Guido's also said that he's not happy with
the approach.

> Decision by exhaustion is surely not a good recipe.

It might be approaching exhaustion after the last few days, but before
then, it was more decision-by-exhaustive-argument. After 2+ years of
discussion, and no concensus, eventually it comes down to Guido to
decide which way feels best.


From elbertlev at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 30 16:26:57 2004
From: elbertlev at hotmail.com (Elbert Lev)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 13:26:57 -0700
Subject: Enumerating Network Adapters
References: <4131b09e$0$13683$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
	<cgt571$8lv$06$1@news.t-online.com>
	<413257dd$0$26986$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<mailman.2602.1093876020.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4qmkheha.fsf@python.net>
Message-ID: <9418be08.0408301226.354c337a@posting.google.com>

> > It returned the least useful of my 3 IP addresses - my loopback
> > adapter - but didn't return my LAN and wireless IPs.

Interesting! I have Python installed on 10 W2K servers and I'm using
the same construct to get addresses. Works fine for me.


From richie at entrian.com  Thu Aug 26 04:06:59 2004
From: richie at entrian.com (Richie Hindle)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:06:59 +0100
Subject: Subclassing built-in types
In-Reply-To: <Z5XWc.6680$D7.6005@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
References: <Z5XWc.6680$D7.6005@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <776ri05bkfr2c2fr1uielik0o5sg2bph43@4ax.com>


[Emiliano]
> I am concerned about something like:
> 
> class NewList(list):
> 	def __init__(self):
> 		list.__init__(self)
> 
> The above code does not allow the passing of a sequence to populate the 
> NewList.
> 
> I imagine that the correct way to do it is something like:
> 
> class NewList(list):
> 	def __init__(self,seq):
> 		list.__init__(self,seq)
> 
> but I can't find any documentation that describes what arguments 
> list.__init__ may take.

The safest way to do this is:

class NewList(list):
    def __init__(self, *args, **kwargs):
        list.__init__(self, *args, **kwargs)

That will work whatever arguments list.__init__ expects, and will continue
to work even if it changes in the future.  It's useful when subclassing
anything that isn't under your control.

(In the trivial case above, where your __init__ doesn't do anything, you can
 always just omit it.)

-- 
Richie Hindle
richie at entrian.com



From ben at benlast.com  Tue Aug 17 10:38:07 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:38:07 +0100
Subject: Databases: Getting values by column name
In-Reply-To: <o6f9v1-6si.ln1@pilz.hasos.com>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPKEAKCEAA.ben@benlast.com>

> From: python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org
> [mailto:python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org]On Behalf Of
> Robert Ferber
> Anyway...
> only use database rows as sequences, ie as arrays with numerical index.
> This gives you loads of problems when using "select *" and also bad code
> readability when selecting specific columns.
> Is there a way to use them as dictionaries, ie with Index-Strings (=column
> names) as indexes?
The PEP describes the lowest-level database interface; usually you need to
wrap that with some application-aware code to get exactly what you need.
Anyway, the answer to your question is: Yes, if you're happy to write a
little extra Python.  A cursor object, on which you've executed a SELECT, in
a PEP249-compliant module would normally have a "description" attribute;
this is a list of tuples, one per result column.  The first element of each
tuple is the column name.  So:

    conn = MySQLdb.connect(...)
    cr = conn.cursor()
    cr.execute("select * from myTable")

    #Look up the columns and get a list of their names, in order.  This
    #isn't necessary for the following code, it's here as an example.
    cols = map(lambda x: x[0], cr.description))

    #Build a list of dicts, one per row, with the values stored by column
names as keys.
    #There are more elegant ways to do this; this is example code.
    rows = []
    for raw_row in cr.fetchall():
        row = {} #start with an empty dict
        for fieldIndex in range(len(cr.description)):
            #Each description is a tuple with the first element
            #being the field name.
            row[description[fieldIndex][0]] = raw_row[fieldIndex]
        rows.append(row)
    cr.close()

    #Now "rows" is a sequence of dicts, one per row, with the values indexed
by column name.

Just to be exact; the rows are returned as *tuples*, not arrays (at least in
MySQLdb; they might be lists in other database modules).  Lists and tuples
are not necessarily the same as arrays in other languages, depending on
exactly how you define an array.
Various people (including me) have also written code to return each row as
an object that has the column values as attributes, so you can refer to them
as myRow.Column1 rather than myRow['Column1'].  If you're interested, drop
me an email and I'll send you a module that can do that.  It's part of the
Quasi shell (http://quasi-shell.sourceforge.net/ - gratuitous plug) which
has a lot of SQL handling built-in.

regards
ben-who-spends-his-life-in-MySQLdb



From marco at reimeika.ca  Tue Aug 17 01:49:54 2004
From: marco at reimeika.ca (marco)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 01:49:54 -0400
Subject: Reading ogg123 output with popen3
References: <mailman.1738.1092671187.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <yibbrhajou5.fsf@coxeter.math.toronto.edu>

oziko <oziko at fusiondementes.com> writes:

> So, my question is. What is the best form to get ogg123's output, so I 
> can use it in an UI, to make a progress bas for example?

Sorry, not quite an answer to your question, but perhaps
the following might be of use:

http://pymedia.sourceforge.net/features.html

Cheers,

--
marco at reimeika.ca
Gunnm: Broken Angel                      http://amv.reimeika.ca
http://reimeika.ca/                      http://photo.reimeika.ca


From andrew.henshaw at gtri.gatech.edu  Mon Aug 23 07:27:42 2004
From: andrew.henshaw at gtri.gatech.edu (Andrew Henshaw)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 07:27:42 -0400
Subject: CODE: Generic Sort Routine
References: <889cbba0.0408190032.335e1713@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <10ijl5etp3f0489@corp.supernews.com>

Kamilche wrote:

> I've written a generic sort routine that will sort dictionaries,
> lists, or tuples, either by a specified key or by value.
> 
> Comments welcome!

...snip...
>     if key:
>         sorted = zip([getattr(item, key) for item in thelist],
> thelist)
>     else:
>         sorted = list(thelist)
...snip...

I'd change that 'if key:' line to 'if key is not None:', so that you could
sort on other non-True values.

Andy


From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Tue Aug 10 04:43:08 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 01:43:08 -0700
Subject: Python equivalent to a C trick
References: <1d7b6d0d.0408092255.1177908e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <odemu1-tju.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

Dan wrote:
> Is there a python equivalent of this trick in C?
>
> Logic_Test ? True_Result : False_Result

The long answer to your question is at
http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0308.html

(in addition to the "hack" Sam posted :-)

Roger 




From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Wed Aug  4 02:13:15 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Wed,  4 Aug 2004 16:13:15 +1000
Subject: converting to string
Message-ID: <1091599995.41107e7b823dc@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

how do i go about converting a Python object or tuple to a string.
i am currently doing
import cPickle as pickle
str = pickle.dumps(obj)

is thate efficient? is that the best way to do it?

thanks

cheers

--
Ajay Brar,
CS Honours 2004
Smart Internet Technology Research Group





----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From mwh at python.net  Mon Aug 23 12:12:45 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:12:45 GMT
Subject: Bug in string.lstrip?
References: <9EoWc.58$A8.18@edtnps89>
Message-ID: <m3llg5j0jm.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Brian <brian at nospam.com> writes:

> Hello - has anyone else had trouble with string.lstrip stripping too
> much? Here's what I get (Python 2.3.4):
> 
>  >>> import string
>  >>> string.lstrip("test/one/two/a.b.c", "test/one/")
> 'wo/a.b.c'
>  >>> string.lstrip("test/one/two/a.b.c", "test/one")
> 'wo/a.b.c'
>  >>> string.lstrip("test/one/two/a.b.c", "test/one/tw")
> 'a.b.c'
>  >>>
> 
> Similar things happened with the strip() string method. Am I missing
> something, or should I file a bug report?

Strip considers the second parameter as a *set* of characters to
remove.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  <dash> web in my head get it out get it out
                                                -- from Twisted.Quotes


From http  Mon Aug 23 21:57:59 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 18:57:59 -0700
Subject: newbie: confused with example in Learning Python 2nd Edition:
	cananyone give a hint
References: <mailman.2254.1093312305.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <7xoel19u1k.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

"Robert Brewer" <fumanchu at amor.org> writes:
> > So: why defitions of self.push and self.pop are defined as
> > 'data.append' rather than '_data.append', etc.

It's an error.  It should say _data.append.

> Hint: Python doesn't have variables like other languages do. The line:
> 
>     self._data = list(data)
> 
> does not make a copy of "data". Instead, it binds a new name
> (self._data) to the same object which the name "data" refers to.

The list function does make a copy.

    Python 2.3.4 (#1, Jul 24 2004, 19:45:58)
    [GCC 3.2.2 20030222 (Red Hat Linux 3.2.2-5)] on linux2
    Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
    >>> j=[9,8]
    >>> a=list(j)
    >>> a is j
    False
    >>> j.append(2)
    >>> j
    [9, 8, 2]
    >>> a
    [9, 8]
    >>>


From eldiener at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 17 21:08:06 2004
From: eldiener at earthlink.net (Edward Diener)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 01:08:06 GMT
Subject: Piping stdout to Python callable
References: <bYbUc.24077$nx2.16696@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<slrnci3t3q.k5.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
Message-ID: <WZxUc.25125$nx2.16316@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>

Antoon Pardon wrote:
> Op 2004-08-17, Edward Diener schreef <eldiener at earthlink.net>:
>> From within a function in my own module I need to take the output
>> from a Python module "A", which is sending data to stdout and which
>> can not be changed and which I need to invoke as a top-level module,
>> and pipe it into another function in my own module so that I can
>> read it from stdin. Is there an easy way to do this ? The only way I
>> can presently think to do this is through "system python A.py |
>> python MyOwnModule.py", which seems a bit laborious having to invoke
>> python.exe itself twice. Any other solution would be most welcome.
>
> What do you mean when you say you need to invoke it as a top-level
> module?  Do you mean you can't import it at all or that importing it
> will startup the process of generating output immediatly?

I mean that it has a "if __name__ == '__main__' line and I need to trigger
it by calling 'python A.py'.

>
> What bothers you with twice invoking the interpreter?

Nothing practically. Just seems inelegant.

> In these days
> a program that is invoked multiples times will generally be only
> loaded once in memory.

Shared libraries may be loaded once in memory but python.exe itself gets
reloaded each time.

>
> Are threads an acceptable alternative? Does your MyOwnModule.py needs
> to write to stdout?

Threads are acceptable. MyOwnModule.py can do anything, depending on
parameters, but the idea is that a certain parameter tells it to read from
stdin on the other end of the pipe.

I have implemented this via "os.system("python A.py | python MyOwnModule.py
parameters") and it works fine. I thought there might be a better, more
elegant way but since the above works without any problem I will stick to it
unless you can suggest anything better. BTW "A.py" can be any number of
types of modules which must be invoked by python.exe and writes it's results
to stdout. I am telling you this lest you suggest that I somehow import and
parse A.py in order to call directly into it rather than having python.exe
invoke it. While that might be possible, it would be a real programming
PITA.




From gandalf at geochemsource.com  Fri Aug  6 12:45:05 2004
From: gandalf at geochemsource.com (Gandalf)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 18:45:05 +0200
Subject: Object Reference?
In-Reply-To: <fDHQc.2929$an.316@trndny08>
References: <HQEQc.6327$rM6.4368@trndny03>	<mailman.1259.1091771181.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<fDHQc.2929$an.316@trndny08>
Message-ID: <4113B591.2000902@geochemsource.com>

> I'm trying to make a graphical editor and browser for Pickled files. 
> One aspect I'm not sure about is how to detect multiple references to 
> the same data. 

...

> For instance, say I had the Pickled data:
> a=[1,2,3]
> b=[a,4,5]
> c=[b,6,7]
> d=[a,b,c]
>
> The idea is to allow the user to browse this data and indicate 
> references. In this case, if 'a' was selected, the browser should show 
> that 'b', 'c', and 'd' contain a reference to 'a'. Inversely, if 'c' 
> were selected, it should indicate that it's first element just isn't a 
> list, but a reference to a list defined elsewhere, namely 'b'.


>>> Naturally, I could just recursively parse all the data comparing every
>>> element to every previously listed object, but is there a less 
>>> obtrusive
>>> method? Python figures out when to delete objects based on the 
>>> remaining
>>> references to an object. Is there a way to access this information to
>>> automatically lookup these references? Any help is greatly appreciated.
>>
>>
>> Use the "id()" of the objects?
>
>
> Well, I was thinking of a function that takes an object's id and 
> returns the ids of all the objects that reference it. Given that 
> Python keeps this information internally (I believe), my question is 
> how do I access his data and what would be the easiest way to code 
> this function? 

Yes, Python figures out when to delete an object, based on its reference 
count. But Python only counts the references. It keeps track of the 
number of references for the object. It does not know where the 
reference is located in memory. The short answer is that you cannot get 
this information effectively.

Long answer follows.

Question: There can be many objects in the structure without a name 
(e.g. not referenced from the value part of a dictionary).
How do you want to display them? As an example:

class A:
    pass

a = A() # THE object
b = [a,a,a,a]
del a

# At this point, THE object does not have a named reference at all but 
it is referenced four times. Do you really want to identify the objects 
with their memory address? The id function does this to you (Anthony 
Baxter said the same.) But this will be a useless pickle browser since 
nobody will notice memory address duplications.

Another big problem here. In Python, the only things you can have are an 
object references. You cannot name the object itself. There are no 
'object variables', only 'reference variables'. For example:

class A:
    pass

a = A() # THE object we are talking about
b = [a]
c = [b]

Here is the question: does the object b "references" a? The answer is 
that the question is wrong because 'a' is a reference itself - a 
reference can only reference one object at a time. Good questions are:

- does 'a' and 'b' reference to the same object? (No)
- does 'b[0]' and 'a' reference to the same object? (Yes)

You may think that a reference of 'a' is contained in 'b'. But this is 
not a general assumption. For example:

a = A()
b = A()
a.o = b
b.o =  a

Now which is contained in which?

Sorry for the long e-mail.

   G





From michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk  Thu Aug 26 09:44:27 2004
From: michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk (Michael Sparks)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:44:27 +0100
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgkeio$spo$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2411.1093517690.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<du7brgyt8hm.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi> <opsdb950eb1v4ijd@musicbox>
Message-ID: <cgkq0i$3ii$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>

Pierre-Fr?d?ric Caillaud wrote:

> Can we insert conditional expressions in the decorator list ?

Not directly, but yes. Both J2 and A1 are "limited" to putting just
values that resolve to a function in the decorator list. In practice
this means that if you REALLY want to do things like conditional
expressions you can:

Given:
x=1
def memoise(f):
   print "memoise"
   return f

def esiomem(f):
   print "esiomem"
   return f

Using current syntax: (untested)

class Foo:
   @staticmethod
   @eval("(memoise,esiomem)[x==0]")
   def Hoo(Who, *args):
      print "Yoo", Who

Using proposed J2: (tested)
class Foo:
   using:
      staticmethod
      eval("(memoise,esiomem)[x==0]")
   def Hoo(Who, *args):
      print "Yoo", Who

Personally that strikes me as relatively evil, but it works.

Regards,


Michael.
-- 
Michael.Sparks at rd.bbc.co.uk    
British Broadcasting Corporation, Research and Development
Kingswood Warren, Surrey KT20 6NP

This message (and any attachments) may contain personal views
which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.




From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Sat Aug  7 14:15:01 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 20:15:01 +0200
Subject: Decorator syntax
In-Reply-To: <QzyQc.1782$KZ2.535@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1173.1091670172.5135.python-list@python.org><38ednYT1NLz1P4zcRVn-uA@powergate.ca><JEiQc.16955$_25.574@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<mailman.1182.1091694251.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<QzyQc.1782$KZ2.535@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2nkk3aF1ph3dU1@uni-berlin.de>

Paul McGuire wrote:


> Please reconsider the "def f() [classmethod]:" construct.  Instead of
> invoking a special punctuation character, it uses context and placement,
> with familiar old []'s, to infuse the declaration of a function with special
> characteristics.  If this causes def lines to run longer than one line,
> perhaps the same rule that allows an unmatched "(" to carry over multiple
> lines without requiring "\" continuation markers could be used for unmatched
> "["s, as in:
> 
> def f() [ staticmethod,
>     synchronized,
>     alphabetized,
>     supersized,
>     returns('d') ]:
> 
> 
> "If I'd wanted mucilage, I'dve ordered mucilage." - Humphrey Bogart, "All
> Through the Night"
> If I'd wanted to write in Java, I'dve written in Java.
> 
> Keep Python Beautiful.

Full ACK!

But I fear that without a formal "voting" Python will go the pragmatic
way - that is, keep @ as it's already implemented.

So what would be the most effective way to notify the developers that
(I'm guessing) 90% of the Python community dislike the @ syntax and want
an other?

Reinhold

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From catcher at linuxmail.org  Wed Aug 25 22:12:59 2004
From: catcher at linuxmail.org (Robert)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:12:59 -0400
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <VJOdnfiBTci22rDcRVn-gg@adelphia.com>

Isn't "Xah Lee" chinese for "Moron"?




From kirk at eyegor.jobsluder.net  Sat Aug  7 13:03:18 2004
From: kirk at eyegor.jobsluder.net (Kirk Job-Sluder)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 17:03:18 GMT
Subject: Paul Graham on Python hackers
References: <cf1p1f$ke0@odak26.prod.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.07.10.51.16.393303@teliko.net>
Message-ID: <slrncha2q0.1sd3.kirk@eyegor.jobsluder.net>

On 2004-08-07, Zoltan Sekeres <zoltan at teliko.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 22:23:59 -0700, ellisjb wrote:
>> (In all seriousness I think python and java have a lot more in common than
>> python and perl.)
>
> This a flamebait, right? Otherwise I would be interested in the features
> which make Python similar to Java (shudder).

In previous writings Graham tends to focus more on language fundamentals
rather than the scope of features or the process of compilation.  Python
is closer to Java in that they are both strongly Object Oriented languages in
contrast to perl's OO framework that feels more bolted on than integral
to me.  Both Python and Java tend to focus on providing a single clear
interface to a function rather than a multitude of synonyms and
syntaxes.  Conceptually, python is closer to java.  In terms of actual
implementation, python is closer to perl.


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Mon Aug 30 10:35:10 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:35:10 +0200
Subject: Get Parent path value (bad design) Help
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2601.1093875943.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2601.1093875943.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408301632160.1173-100000@kleigh.nl>

Golawala, Moiz M (GE Infrastructure) schreef:

> Hi all,
>
> What I am trying to do is write some generic code where I can
> get the path of the parent directory. for example if current
> working directory is 'Z:\\dirA\\Parent\\Child'
>
> I want to get a string which up like 'Z:\\dirA\\Parent'
> Then I do a sys.path.append('Z:\\dirA\\Parent')

path = r'Z:\dirA\Parent\Child'

# or: path = os.getcwd()

parent = os.path.normpath(os.path.join(path, '..'))




-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From barry at python.org  Sun Aug 22 23:48:29 2004
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 23:48:29 -0400
Subject: PEP 20 - The Zen of Python
Message-ID: <1093232909.28577.19.camel@geddy.wooz.org>

Figured it was about time...

sssh!-don't-tell-tim-ly y'rs,
-Barry


-------------- next part --------------
PEP: 20
Title: The Zen of Python
Version: $Revision: 1.1 $
Last-Modified: $Date: 2004/08/23 03:41:21 $
Author: tim at zope.com (Tim Peters)
Status: Active
Type: Informational
Content-Type: text/plain
Created: 19-Aug-2004
Post-History: 22-Aug-2004


Abstract

    Long time Pythoneer Tim Peters succinctly channels the BDFL's
    guiding principles for Python's design into 20 aphorisms, only 19
    of which have been written down.


The Zen of Python

    Beautiful is better than ugly.
    Explicit is better than implicit.
    Simple is better than complex.
    Complex is better than complicated.
    Flat is better than nested.
    Sparse is better than dense.
    Readability counts.
    Special cases aren't special enough to break the rules.
    Although practicality beats purity.
    Errors should never pass silently.
    Unless explicitly silenced.
    In the face of ambiguity, refuse the temptation to guess.
    There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.
    Although that way may not be obvious at first unless you're Dutch.
    Now is better than never.
    Although never is often better than *right* now.
    If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea.
    If the implementation is easy to explain, it may be a good idea.
    Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those!


Easter Egg

    >>> import this


Copyright

    This document has been placed in the public domain.



Local Variables:
mode: indented-text
indent-tabs-mode: nil
sentence-end-double-space: t
fill-column: 70
End:
-------------- next part --------------
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From roy at panix.com  Tue Aug  3 21:03:45 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 21:03:45 -0400
Subject: help: Unit test fixture returning the same object
References: <9895e897.0408031533.26720ba0@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <roy-BD89B7.21034503082004@reader1.panix.com>

In article <9895e897.0408031533.26720ba0 at posting.google.com>,
 michael_mccracken at mac.com (Michael McCracken) wrote:

> The problem is that in each test case, setUp and tearDown are called
> as expected according to the print statements, but they don't seem to
> have any effect after the first invocation. self.testfile is always
> the same instance as reported by id().

Are you really sure they're the same object?  id() just returns the 
address of the object in memory.  It's possible for two objects to have 
the same id as long as their lifetimes never overlap.  If you repeatedly 
create and destroy the same type of objects in the same context (as 
happens in a unittest environment), it's reasonably likely that objects 
will reuse the same memory locations.

Other than the oddity of id() returning the same value in different 
tests, is something unexpected happening?


From martin at v.loewis.de  Sat Aug  7 01:28:19 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 07:28:19 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
In-Reply-To: <qeWQc.37096$K53.5490@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no> <4112AC7B.1060508@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806egka@bombur.uio.no> <411343D7.3020604@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806c08y@bombur.uio.no> <411353A3.8090502@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806beaz@bombur.uio.no> <4113759E.2070405@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806rjgh@bombur.uio.no> <4113E755.8060205@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806qxkg@bombur.uio.no> <41140349.6090202@v.loewis.de>
	<qeWQc.37096$K53.5490@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <41146873.2090202@v.loewis.de>

Neil Hodgson wrote:
>    Do you have a link to such an encoding? I understand 0x5c, '\' is often
> displayed as a yen sign, but haven't seen it as the start byte of a multi
> byte character.

The ISO-2022 ones:
 >>> u"\u69f9\u6a0c".encode("iso-2022-jp")
'\x1b$B\\_\\n\x1b(B'

ESC $ B and ESC ( B are the codeset switch sequences, and \_ \n are
the actual encodings of the characters.

>    Regarding the 's' string prefix in the proposal, adding more prefixes
> damages ease of understanding particularly when used in combination. There
> should be a very strong need before another is introduced: I'd really hate
> to be trying to work out the meaning of:
> 
> r$tu"/Raw/ $interpolated, translated Unicode string"

Indeed. Perhaps some combinations can be ruled out, though.

Regards,
Martin


From no.spam at here.dude  Tue Aug 31 13:43:34 2004
From: no.spam at here.dude (red floyd)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:43:34 GMT
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
In-Reply-To: <4134AC88.56452265@yahoo.com>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4PGdnfsOfdDPi63cRVn-tA@speakeasy.net>
	<slrncj1745.t5q.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<41337FC9.8070902@hotmail.com>
	<slrncj7hhh.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<p7v7j0plcfbden593l1irfprmfkp4d3k51@4ax.com>
	<slrncj8m5n.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<%T%Yc.29567$Es2.11957889@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<du7k6vfnvx9.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi> <4134AC88.56452265@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <aN2Zc.10226$QJ3.5466@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>

CBFalconer wrote:

> Dump Notepad and get Textpad.  www.textpad.com.  First class.
> 

Let the editor flame wars begin!

Get gvim!  www.vim.org


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 00:36:37 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 04:36:37 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: with as J2 keyword (WAS: Re: J2 0-2-6 is available)
References: <mailman.2323.1093399282.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<vNSdnQtkP7x9arbcRVn-vQ@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <loom.20040825T061842-261@post.gmane.org>

Doug Holton <insert <at> spam.here> writes:
> with:
>      classmethod
>      .author = "Fran?ois Pinard"
> def foo(cls):
>      pass
> 
> def bar():
>      pass
> with bar:
>      staticmethod
>      .version = "0.2.4"

Note that one of the common decorator examples has been something like:

@classmethod
@funcattrs(author="Fran?ois Pinard")
def foo(cls):
    pass

So for functions, people already want to put classmethod and the author 
attribute in the same place.  So when "with" blocks come along, and people get 
used to writing

with self:
    .x = 3

they're going to wonder why they have to move their metadata to after the 
function if they want to use the .xxx syntax.

That aside, I tend to agree with you.  I think mixing the .xxx assignments 
(which are statements) with things like "classmethod" and "memoize" (which are 
expressions) is bound to be confusing, e.g. your example:

> with self:
>      init
>      .version = 3
> Is that supposed to mean:
> init(self)
> self.version = 3?

Presumably anyone who was pushing for "with" as the keyword would, at the 
least, disallow this sort of syntax for non-funcdefs, but this is certainly a 
great example of how horrible it could be.  =)

Steve



From michele.simionato at gmail.com  Tue Aug 10 00:39:21 2004
From: michele.simionato at gmail.com (Michele Simionato)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 21:39:21 -0700
Subject: Best pattern/idiom
References: <4117c3d8$1@buckaroo.cs.rit.edu>
Message-ID: <4edc17eb.0408092039.10958e11@posting.google.com>

Chris Connett <chrisccc_3k at yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<4117c3d8$1 at buckaroo.cs.rit.edu>...
> I was wondering if there were a well known pattern/idiom for breaking a 
> sequence into a list of lists, each n elements long, e.g.
> 
> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11] -> [[0,1,2,3],[4,5,6,7],[8,9,10,11]]
> 
> This comes up reasonably often in my work, and every time I re-think 
> about it, and come up with
> [ lis[n:n+4] for n in range( 0, len( lis ), 4 ) ]
> which seems very kludgy to me, since it uses a range and len, 2 mentions 
> of the list identifier and 2 literal 4's (which is the size I want to 
> break into this time).
> 
> Is there a better way?

>From a post of mine of some time ago ...

>>> import itertools
>>> def chop(it, n):
...     tup = (iter(it),)*n
...     return itertools.izip(*tup)
...
>>> list(chop([1,2,3,4,5,6],3)) [(1, 2, 3), (4, 5, 6)]
>>> list(chop([1,2,3,4,5,6],2)) [(1, 2), (3, 4), (5, 6)]
>>> list(chop([1,2,3,4,5,6],1))
[(1,), (2,), (3,), (4,), (5,), (6,)]

  Michele Simionato


From harry.g.george at boeing.com  Wed Aug 25 13:46:59 2004
From: harry.g.george at boeing.com (Harry George)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:46:59 GMT
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <mailman.2354.1093443621.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <xqxd61frtyk.fsf@cola2.ca.boeing.com>

"Robert Brewer" <fumanchu at amor.org> writes:

> Jacek Generowicz wrote:
> > Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> writes:
> > 
> > > The last time I checked, Java and C++ (even C) were widely
> > > considered to be high level languages.
> > 
> > The fact many people hold an erroneous belief, does not make said
> > belief any less erroneous.
> > 
> > > Has someone been raising the bar while I wasn't looking?
> > 
> > The developers of all the truly high-level languages ?
> > 
> > There was a time when assembler was high-level.
> 
> Someday, even Python will be a low-level language.
> 
> ;)
> 
> 
> Robert Brewer
> MIS
> Amor Ministries
> fumanchu at amor.org

A common term for Python and similar higher-level-than-C languages is
"VHLL" (Very High Level Language").  


-- 
harry.g.george at boeing.com
6-6M21 BCA CompArch Design Engineering
Phone: (425) 342-0007


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 28 02:58:16 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 08:58:16 +0200
Subject: Iteration over Lists and Strings
References: <cUSXc.56768$xi6.42946@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <1gj80sj.1wbku5tpiz05cN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

DeepBleu <DeepBleu at DeepBleu.org> wrote:

> I noticed the following:
> >>a = 'abba'
> >>for n in a:
> >>  print n, a.index(n)
> a 0
> b 1
> b 1
> a 0

a.index(n) returns the FIRST index x of a such thatn a[x]==n.

> (expected result:
> a 0
> b 1
> b 2
> a 3)

Misfounded expectation.  The first 'b' and the second 'b' are equal, for
example, so a.index can never possibly return different results for
them.


> What is going on?  Can someone clarify this to me?  And how can I ensure
> that the iteration produces the absolute index number **without** doing
> something like:
> >>a = 'abba'
> >>k = len(a)
> >>for m in range(0, k):
> >>  print a[m], m
> a 0
> b 1
> b 2
> a 3

That's what the enumerate built-in is for:

for m, n in enumerate(a):
    print n, m


Alex


From danb_83 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 23:30:44 2004
From: danb_83 at yahoo.com (Dan Bishop)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 20:30:44 -0700
Subject: ZeroDivisionError: float division (baby steps)
References: <6daa8765.0408191133.2f2e22e3@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <ad052e5c.0408201930.1123ec9d@posting.google.com>

calidusdk at hotmail.com (Artemisio) wrote in message news:<6daa8765.0408191133.2f2e22e3 at posting.google.com>...
> I am a non programmer who just started with Python. So far I love it.
> 
> I would appreciate if you could help me fix this error I get taking this
> exercise:
>
> count= 0

As other posters have mentioned, the problem is with your indentation.
 But I can't resist giving advice.

First of all, I recommend starting every file with the line "from
__future__ import division".  You will then no longer need to worry as
much about writing things like

> sum= 0.0

because you'll get the same division results from "sum=0".  (If you
really want integer division, use the // operator.)

> number= 1
> print "Enter 0 to exit the loop"
> 
> while number != 0 :
> 	number= input("Enter a number: ")
> 
>       count= count + 1   # [indentation corrected]
>       sum= sum + number  # [indentation corrected]
> 
> count= count -1

Instead of using sentinel values, it's possible to put the loop
condition in the middle of the loop, like this:

print "Enter 0 to exit the loop"

while True:               # loop "forever"
   number = input("Enter a number: ")
   if number == 0:        # condition for exiting the loop
      break
   count += 1
   sum += number

Note that count no longer needs to be decremented by 1 at the end,
because if you enter 0, it doesn't get incremented.

Also note that assignments of the form x=x+y can be abbreviated as
x+=y, so you don't have to write the left-hand side twice.  The
benefit will be more noticeable for statements like

verboseName[complicated + index + calculation].verboseAttribute += 1

> print "The average is: ", sum / count
> #the error is in the above line

Often, the real error is long before the line that gives you the error
message.

But you might want to modify this line to deal with the situation that
count == 0.

if count == 0:
   print "You didn't enter any numbers!"
else:
   print "The average is: ", sum / count


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Fri Aug 20 15:16:24 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:16:24 +0200
Subject: IDLE
In-Reply-To: <c69396de.0408201108.4c02043a@posting.google.com>
References: <c69396de.0408201108.4c02043a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408202113210.1138-100000@kleigh.nl>

george schreef:

> Newbie question.
>
> Installed Python 2.4 successfully.
> However, double clicking on the IDLE icon activates the hour glass
> cursor and then dies. The IDLE window does not come up.
> I am sure it is something trivial that I am not doing

Happended to me too. Idle is trying to get access to tcp/ip
services and can't find them on Windows. You have to start Idle
with an option to disable threading, or something. Don't know
what feature exactly, I'm not on Windows now, luckily.

In any case, you should open a shell Window, and start Idle from
the command line. That should tell you what the problem is.


-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From chris.cavalaria at free.fr  Sat Aug 28 16:44:28 2004
From: chris.cavalaria at free.fr (Christophe Cavalaria)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 22:44:28 +0200
Subject: Generator expressions v/s list comprehensions
References: <mahesh-525B07.12195528082004@individual.net>
	<1gj8y77.6qshr41q531veN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<mahesh-7E265C.14093428082004@individual.net>
Message-ID: <4130eeac$0$21092$626a14ce@news.free.fr>

Mahesh Padmanabhan wrote:

> In article <1gj8y77.6qshr41q531veN%aleaxit at yahoo.com>,
>  aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) wrote:
> 
> 
>> Sure, and that limitation is: list comprehensions return lists.  This
>> one "limitation" (together with Python's applicative order evaluation,
>> and you couldn't change THAT without breaking the whole caboodle of
>> existing programs!) implies everything else.
> 
> Is returning a list really a limitation considering that lists can be
> transformed quite easily?
> 
> What is "Python's applicative order evaluation" and how do generator
> expressions get around it?
> 
> 
>> Generator comprehensions are wonderful and there is no way Python list
>> comprehensions can provide the same features, since lists need to be
>> lists.  Sure, list(e(x) for x in foo) IS just the same thing as [e(x)
>> for x in foo].  We'll remove the redundancy in 3.0 -- not earlier
>> because it will break backwards compatibility.  The only sensible way I
>> can see right now for 3.0 to remove this redundancy is by removing list
>> comprehensions and leaving only generator comprehensions, btw.
> 
> I am still not clear of the advantages of using generator expressions
> (other than less memory consumption) instead of list comprehension for
> any given class of problems. Can you cite concrete use cases where
> generator expressions would be preferred over list comprehension?
> 
> Thanks,
> Mahesh

- lower memory usage
- lower CPU usage ( sometimes, you don't need to expand the whole generator,
see below )
- ability to manipulate infinite generators

Is that enouth ? 


From ksenia at ksenia.nl  Thu Aug 26 06:54:42 2004
From: ksenia at ksenia.nl (Ksenia Marasanova)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:54:42 +0300
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <cgkeio$spo$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgkeio$spo$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <55806718-F74E-11D8-BC58-000A957911BC@ksenia.nl>

I vote FOR J2.

Ksenia Marasanova.



From ben at benlast.com  Sun Aug 15 04:14:18 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 09:14:18 +0100
Subject: reading shell output in parallel
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPOELCCDAA.ben@benlast.com>

At the risk of blowing my own trumpet (a practise to be deplored), you might
like to have a play with Quasi (http://quasi-shell.sourceforge.net) in which
one can easily do:
 myFiles = `os ls *.py`
and the like, to get the output of Linux/cygwin/Windows-cmd processes.

At the moment, the output is not sent in parallel (execution completes
first), but you can do:
 for line in `os myCommand`:
   print line
   sendToServer(line)

...so that at least you see the lines as they're sent.

regards
ben



From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Sun Aug 29 11:35:51 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:35:51 +0200
Subject: os.walk: Get entire path
In-Reply-To: <cgssom$hu6$00$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <cgssom$hu6$00$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408291734280.2571-100000@kleigh.nl>

Florian Lindner schreef:

> Hello,
> when I'm walking through a file system hierarchy using os.walk, how can I
> get the full path of a file or dir? normpath and abspath don't work.


Sure it does.

os.path.abspath(os.path.join(root, file_or_dir))



-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From quaggy at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 21:25:45 2004
From: quaggy at gmail.com (Jonathan Wright)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 18:25:45 -0700
Subject: Fun transformation problem
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.26.13.24.26.521173@riverhall_nospam_.co.uk>
Message-ID: <cgm2ip$24s@odak26.prod.google.com>

def trans(paths):
tree = {}
for path in paths:
branch = tree
for i,node in enumerate(path[:-2]):
branch = branch.setdefault(node, {})
branch[path[-2]] = path[-1]
return tree

print trans( [(1,2,3), (1,3,4), (2,5,6)] )
print trans( [(1,2,3,4), (3,4,5,6), (3,4,6,7), (3,4,6,8), (3,4,5,1),
(3,4,7,9)] )

This is my first post with gmail. The preview shows it screwing up the
spaces in the python code, so I'm includeding a version with dots
instead of spaces below. :-)

def trans(paths):
....tree = {}
....for path in paths:
........branch = tree
........for i,node in enumerate(path[:-2]):
............branch = branch.setdefault(node, {})
........branch[path[-2]] = path[-1]
....return tree

Jonathan.



From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz  Fri Aug 13 00:40:58 2004
From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:40:58 +1200
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
In-Reply-To: <60dfb6f6.0408111846.615ee9eb@posting.google.com>
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
	<60dfb6f6.0408111846.615ee9eb@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <2o2v2qF63a06U1@uni-berlin.de>

Carl Banks wrote:
> One thing that's different is that, in all those cases, the second
> block has a keyword that can't appear alone.  You can't have an except
> without a try, or an else without an if, but you could have a def
> without a decorate.

So maybe the def should come first...

   def:
     staticmethod
     author("Fred")
   decorated foo(blarg):
     ...

-- 
Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept,
University of Canterbury,	
Christchurch, New Zealand
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg



From mwh at python.net  Sat Aug  7 16:32:23 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 20:32:23 GMT
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu> <cf3b56$gt6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>
	<m3y8kqpw2l.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
	<cf3dna$891$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>
Message-ID: <m3u0vepu3s.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Jarek Zgoda <jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl> writes:

> Michael Hudson wrote:
> 
> >>Come on, guys, fix real problems like interpreter thread safety,
> >>improve performance, don't make us, "real-world software
> >>developers", screaming with every new release, please.
> > http://www.python.org/patches/
> 
> You want to say "if you want any improvement, do it yourself"? Sure,
> it's much better than Java's JCP, but expect
> http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/F/fork.html if enough people will
> share the same annoyance and anger.

It's possible.

> I write some free software, but I never tell users "go fix it
> yourself". This is rude.

Yes, probably.  But so were you, so can we call it quits?

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  ARTHUR:  Why should he want to know where his towel is?
    FORD:  Everybody should know where his towel is.
  ARTHUR:  I think your head's come undone.
                    -- The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy, Episode 7


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 31 11:50:29 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:50:29 +0200
Subject: initializing mutable class attributes
References: <J4zYc.102357$UTP.98636@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<cgul4v$h1d$1@online.de>
	<sHGYc.93306$pTn.42032@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
Message-ID: <1gje8ja.1aywqe1j3x7eaN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Dan Perl <dperl at rogers.com> wrote:

> I will clarify something that was probably not clear enough in my initial
> posting.  I am interested in instance attributes, but I am using the class
> attributes to provide a default, "null", value for the instance attributes.

Quite a reasonable approach for immutables, because you don't have to
worry about how to copy them -- only about rebinding, which only happens
on the instance anyway.  Not feasible for mutables, obviously, because
you WOULD have to worry about how to copy them -- shallow or deep, for
example?

> awkward, I would rather call it unsafe.  If I were a third-party library
> vendor, I would not be comfortable providing a mixin class that forces users
> to either invoke the parent's __init__ in their constructors or to

You're out of luck, then -- most well-designed classes, mixin or not, do
need to have their __init__ called in order to set a consistent state on
a new instance which will allow that instance to fulfill its
responsibilities.  Just copying (shallowly or deeply...?) some class
attributes ain't gonna cut it.

> I think this points to a weakness in Python as an OO language.  I'm not

I think that Python's having as few "hidden black magic thing that
happens when you're not looking" aspects is a strength, not a weakness.

> trying to bash it, but my understanding is that Python is still evolving in
> that respect and I think that this should be improved in the future.  Then,

Python's OO is still settling down after the huge changes in the passage
from 2.1 to 2.2 and it's unlikely that any change to come will include
making the calls to superclasses' __init__ methods somehow magical and
automatic rather than explicit -- I can't speak with certainty, only
Guido could, but that is my best guess.

However a custom metaclass that does automagically call some
initializers is surely a possibility, since it's a rather modest
investment of time to develop one, if anybody with a good understanding
of Python OO shares your opinion.  Calling initializer methods appear
self-obviously (to me) to be head and shoulders above your idea about
copying (deeply or shallowly?) some class attributes into instances, of
course.  And I would not call the automagically called initializers
__init__ to avoid conflicting with __init__'s very deliberately
NON-automagical behavior -- maybe something like __preinit__ or
__postinit__ depending on when you want these black magic methods
called, or __autoinit__ if you want to keep that aspect undefined, &c.

> on the other hand, maybe I'm the only one feeling this way and there's not
> going to be a change.

It's likely that others share your preferences, but if they share them
strongly enough to want to actually do something about them I think
they're more likely to be considering other languages, more suitable to
their overall philosophy -- it's rare, though not unheard of, for
somebody to stick with a language on which they differ on fundamental
points of design philosophy, and strive to change that language to their
own philosophy, when there are so many alternatives with different
philosophies that one might switch to instead.  Similarly, it would be
unusual, though far from impossible, for somebody to both have a
complete and perfect grasp of Python's object model (so they'd be the
kind of person who could implement a custom metaclass for your purposes
with comparatively little effort) and at the same time loathe
fundamental aspects of that object model enough to want to strive to
change them.  Nevertheless, these are only 'trends', not certainties.


Alex


From roy at panix.com  Sun Aug 22 10:24:14 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 10:24:14 -0400
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<7x4qmv6cwo.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<mailman.2135.1093150155.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-1B9035.10241422082004@reader1.panix.com>

Tim Churches <tchur at optushome.com.au> wrote:
> As a population health epidemiologist whose stock-in-trade is
> manipulation and analysis of large health data sets, I have to say that
> Python's run-time speed is almost always much faster than I would have
> expected from such a dynamic language, but also almost always much
> slower than I would like, especially when compared to widely-used (but
> vastly expensive and sprawling) data manipulation environments such as
> SAS system (see http://www.sas.com) which is the "industry standard" in
> my particular field.

It should not be surprising at all that a general-purpose tool will be 
beaten by a domain-specific tool in that domain.  SAS, as you say, is 
designed to munch huge numeric data sets.  That is its only reason for 
existing, and it's got 20 or 30 years of development effort behind it to 
make it do that one task as fast as possible.


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sun Aug  8 09:11:14 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 23:11:14 +1000
Subject: decorators vs GIL
In-Reply-To: <41162234$0$32536$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
References: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>	<mailman.1345.1091924284.5135.python-list@python.org>	<8YudnZoJ4NdLEYjcRVn-jA@speakeasy.net>	<0bidnfbR2_PZOIjcRVn-pA@giganews.com>
	<mailman.1350.1091953009.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<41162234$0$32536$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040808061128622deb@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 14:57:12 +0200, Xavier Combelle
<xavier.combelle at free.fr> wrote:
> For information is there some internet resources to understand what
> exactly the GIL is about ?

Plenty - try this google search:
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Adocs.python.org+GIL
for a couple of simple ones, but there's plenty more - google for
"python GIL" (or "python free-threading" for patches that were 
written against Python 1.4 to remove the single lock. They ended
up slowing down Python significantly.

Note that much has been written about the GIL. Much of the stuff 
I've seen has been from people who obviously don't understand
it, but fear it anyway.

Anthony


From marcos at nordesia.org  Wed Aug 18 21:56:09 2004
From: marcos at nordesia.org (Marcos Eimil Pardo)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 03:56:09 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <412408B9.6060608@nordesia.org>

28 years old, and getting more and more surprised with python, not only 
a elegant, expressive, etc, etc. language, also useful as social life 
maker ;D.

Lucas Raab wrote:

>One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
>Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
>about....
>
>
>  
>



From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 17 00:41:35 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 23:41:35 -0500
Subject: Python secure?
In-Reply-To: <B7mdnXJjCfvx6rzcRVn-pA@powergate.ca>
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk><ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com><ZKRTc.3710$bJ2.23892@news1.mts.net>	<cforh6$qiv$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<mailman.1705.1092625838.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2xXTc.3775$bJ2.24876@news1.mts.net>
	<NIydnd-skK0q173cRVn-ow@powergate.ca>
	<4neUc.3991$bJ2.26560@news1.mts.net>
	<B7mdnXJjCfvx6rzcRVn-pA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <r%fUc.4019$bJ2.26538@news1.mts.net>

Peter Hansen wrote:
> You haven't really been programming for very long, I think.
In fact I've been programming for years formally trained.


> Your argument (and I don't intend to start a flame war about another
> religious area) is tantamount to saying that the only failing of
> guns is that people use them to kill other people...  (That argument
> has merit, of course, but it sort of misses the whole point.)
Only if people use them improperly, which is my point, which you seem to 
have missed.  Guns are good at killing something to eat.  C, if you know 
what you are doing, can create secure code and you don't have to be perfect.


>> If people wouldn't rush, if they took there time to learn what's 
>> actually going on, they wouldn't make those mistakes.
> 
> 
> Okay, fair enough... though still arguable.  But let's look at
> reality: people do rush.  People don't take the time to learn
> what's actually going on.  And even when they do, they are
> only human, so sometimes they forget, or get confused, or just
> get in a hurry, or in spite of all their best efforts they
> still manage not to do it right.  Expecting programmers to
> be perfect is unreasonable, and to achieve very secure code in
> C one must expect to have perfect programmers.
> 
>> One cannot judge a language by it's ability to allow sloppyness.  
> 
> 
> Whyever not?  There's no inherent reason why one shouldn't do
> exactly that.


> Assembly, for example, is a terrible language...
We aren't talking about assembly, we are talking about C, which is 
readable if the programmer takes the time to code and document properly. 
  Any language will suffer if a poor programmer is at the helm.  And if 
there is a program that needs writing (securely) and someone is charged 
with that duty that has no business doing so, they'll get what they 
deserve regardless of which language is used.


>  > Quite frankly, I've seen some crap
> 
>> Python code.  It's the programmer NOT the language.
> 
> 
> Not quite: it's the programmer *and* the language.  But for
> a given programmer, there are clear differences between two
> languages in terms of how readable the resulting code will be,
> not to mention how secure.
If a programmer writes well structured code then (s)he will write well 
structured code to the limitation of that language.  All languages that 
I have seen allow proper indentation, etc.  If the programmer doesn't do 
this then (s)he'll find a way to mess up readality, etc somehow.


>> Remember, there is no one language that everything is good for.  
>> Python, C, C++, Lisp, etc all have things that it is best to program 
>> in them.  It all depends on the projects requirements.
> 
> 
> All true...  but we _were_ talking about requirements involving
> security and, for that, C is not as good as Python.  I think
> your final statement is pretty close to agreeing with that,
> unless you really want to go back now and argue against yourself,
> that C is just as good as Python in that area, or perhaps even
> better...  (in which case I'm quite curious what areas you
> think Python, C++, and Lisp excel in compared to C.)
> 
> -Peter

I'm trying to say here that one must base the choice of language on a 
project by project basis.  That the program must be secure is no reason 
to jetison C straight away, as there are way too many other factors that 
come into play.  Look at the project and the language will fall out.

If I was to kill Python (or any other scripting language) then one need 
only mention speed as an absolute requirement.  But, if speed wasn't an 
issue then a scripting language would still be in play.  I'd also like 
to mention that one need not have to choose between the two as one can 
embed Python in C.  Use C for the speed sensitive parts and Python for 
the others.  For instance, many games (which depend on high frame rates) 
use Python in parts of them.


I'd like to say at this point, since I'm probably coming off as 
anti-Python to some, that I do love the language.  In fact I recommend 
it to anyone that wishes to learn programming as it repels many bad 
habits.  I'm also using it for multiple projects that I have going right 
now.

But, that being said, I must say that it does have its limitations, just 
like any other language.  I'm just defending others that I don't think 
have some limitations that others think that they do.  So, with that in 
mind, I think that this discussion has reached an opinion level and thus 
IMHO, will bear no futher fruit.


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 20:54:22 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:54:22 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed204082608251b2830d8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<cghslg$lao$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082600433e025140@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkjm5$3lb$2@sea.gmane.org>	<cgkprj$3lb$5@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826075738a8f6ca@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkur1$ehg$2@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed204082608251b2830d8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cgm0nt$epd$2@sea.gmane.org>

Anthony Baxter wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:15:46 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>__getitem__ is most certainly magical!  Defining it 'declares'
>>(implicitly, but we'll ignore that governing zen rule for the moment)
>>that instances of the containing class have dictionary semantics (that
>>they can be used, in some degree, like dictionaries).  That's magic.
>>That's meta.  That's profoundly deeper than anything defining getMonkey
>>does.
> 
> 
> What? There is *nothing* that __getitem__ "declares". __getitem__ is
> used by the interpreter.

Sure the interpreter uses __getitem__, but you use it too, right?  I 
mean, you don't need the interpreter to tell you whether instances of 
the following class can act like a dictionary, do you?

    class Foo:
       def __getitem__(self, x): pass

No you don't.  Nor do you need to pretend that you're the interpreter, 
and simulate a call to an instance of Foo.  That's because the mere 
presence of def __getitem__ tells you what you need to know.  In this 
way, __getitem__ *does* serve as a declaration (of dictionary semantics) 
[*] to you and anyone reading your code.

* But an implicit declaration of course.   I guess the only way of 
*explicitly* stating that instances of a class can act like dictionaries 
is to have the class inherit from dict or UserDict.


> used by the interpreter. When do make a call like:
> 
> someobj[key]
> 
> the interpreter turns that into 
> 
> someobj.__getitem__(key)
> 
> That's all. I can make an object that acts like a dictionary _without_
> using a __getitem__, watch:
> 
> class Foo:
>     def __init__(self):
>         self.d = dict(ape=False,spidermonkey=True)
> 
>     def getMonkey(self, key):
>         return self.d[key]
> 
>     def __getattr__(self, name):
>         if name == "__getitem__":
>             return self.getMonkey
>         else:
>             raise AttributeError, name
> 
> f = Foo()
> print f['ape']
> print f['spidermonkey']

Now hold on just a minute.  If I squint a little, I can still see 
__getitem__ in there somewhere.

Though I do believe that you are illustrating a good point; that you can 
mangle your code badly enough that it no longer lends itself to a 
declarative reading.  And then, the only way for your poor reader to 
figure out what the heck it's doing is for him/her to act like the 
interpreter and walk through your code (or run it under the debugger).
But I guess if you had a good enough reason...




From g24ever at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 20 15:08:41 2004
From: g24ever at hotmail.com (george)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 12:08:41 -0700
Subject: IDLE
Message-ID: <c69396de.0408201108.4c02043a@posting.google.com>

Newbie question.

Installed Python 2.4 successfully.
However, double clicking on the IDLE icon activates the hour glass
cursor and then dies. The IDLE window does not come up.
I am sure it is something trivial that I am not doing
Any thoughts
George


From cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca  Tue Aug 10 01:53:46 2004
From: cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca (David M. Cooke)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 01:53:46 -0400
Subject: numarray speed question
References: <953AD3D0Didtoken@128.91.2.239>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408040845120.27254-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<953C4DD4idtoken@128.91.2.239>
	<qnkr7qluxuy.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
	<144d0df.0408070828.338f8c19@posting.google.com>
	<qnkn015ujoh.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
	<9540516Didtoken@128.91.2.239>
Message-ID: <qnkisbrv8r9.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>

At some point, grv575 at hotmail.com (grv) wrote:

> cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca (David M. Cooke) wrote in 
> <qnkn015ujoh.fsf at arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>:
>
>>At some point, grv575 at hotmail.com (grv575) wrote:
>
>>> Heh.  Try timing the example I gave (a += 5) using byteswapped vs.
>>> byteswap().  It's fairly fast to do the byteswap.  If you go the
>>> interpretation way (byteswapped) then all subsequent array operations
>>> are at least an order of magnitude slower (5 million elements test
>>> example).
>>
>>You mean something like
>>a = arange(0, 5000000, type=Float64).byteswapped()
>>a += 5
>>
>>vs.
>>a = arange(0, 5000000, type=Float64)
>>a.byteswap()
>>a += 5
>>
>>? I get the same time for the a+=5 in each case -- and it's only twice
>>as slow as operating on a non-byteswapped version. Note that numarray
>>calls the ufunc add routine with non-byteswapped numbers; it takes a
>>block, orders it correctly, then adds 5 to that, does the byteswap on
>>the result, and stores that back. (You're not making a full copy of
>>the array; just a large enough section at a time to do useful work.)
>
> It must be using some sort of cache for the multiplication.  Seems like on 
> the first run it takes 6 seconds and subsequently .05 seconds for either 
> version.

There is. The ufunc for the addition gets cached, so the first time
takes longer (but not that much???)

>>Maybe what you need is a package designed for *small* arrays ( < 1000).
>>Simple C wrappers; just C doubles and ints, no byteswap, non-aligned.
>>Maybe a fixed number of dimensions. Probably easy to throw something
>>together using Pyrex. Or, wrap blitz++ with boost::python.
>
> I'll check out Numeric first.  Would rather have a drop-in solution (which 
> hopefully will get more optimized in future releases) rather than hacking 
> my own wrappers.  Is it some purist mentality that's keeping numarray from 
> dropping to C code for the time-critical routines?  Or can a lot of the 
> speed issues be attributed to the overhead of using objects for the library 
> (numarray does seem more general)?

It's the object overhead in numarray. The developers moved stuff up to
Python, where it's more flexible to handle. Numeric is faster for
small arrays (say < 3000), but numarray is much better at large
arrays. I have some speed comparisions at
http://arbutus.mcmaster.ca/dmc/numpy/

I did a simple wrapper using Pyrex the other night for a vector of
doubles (it just does addition, so it's not much good :-) It's twice
as fast as Numeric, so I might give it a further try.

-- 
|>|\/|<
/--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
|David M. Cooke
|cookedm(at)physics(dot)mcmaster(dot)ca


From tdelaney at avaya.com  Mon Aug 16 21:20:32 2004
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy))
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:20:32 +1000
Subject: Why I love python.
Message-ID: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01D588BC@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

Nick Patavalis wrote:

> I believe this is not a discussion about cell-phones. Incidentally all
> these features are hard to implement without software.

No - it is a discussion about simplicity. Mobile phones were used as an
example of something simple becoming les and less simple, to which you
produced a denigrating response.

Tim Delaney


From titus at barik.net  Tue Aug 31 12:32:20 2004
From: titus at barik.net (Titus Barik)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 12:32:20 -0400
Subject: convert string to input stream
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.31.16.32.20.258768@barik.net>

Hi,

I've used Google quite a bit in an attempt to find an answer to this
question, but have found no leads, possibly because I'm not sure I'm
wording my question properly. So I thought I'd try here.

Basically I have a function that accepts an input file stream as an
argument:

	handle = open(SOME_FILE)
	my_function(handle)

But occasionally, I end up with a string ("Hello world") that I need to
convert to a stream in order to pass it into this function. Perhaps
something like:

	fake_handle = convert_to_handle("Hello world!")

so that it appears to this function to be a file handle. I've seen
functions in other languages that will take strings and convert them to
streams via IO Memory Buffers and such, but can't seem to find anything in
Python; or at least I don't know where to look.

One solution that I didn't like was to do the following:

	1. Open a temporary file.
	2. Write the string to that file.
	3. Read it back.

Any suggestions are appreciated.

Regards,


-- 
Titus Barik (titus at barik.net)
http://www.barik.net



From fredegar at haftmann-online.de  Mon Aug 23 01:59:55 2004
From: fredegar at haftmann-online.de (Florian Fredegar Haftmann)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 22:59:55 -0700
Subject: Python/COM scale problem with Internet Explorer
Message-ID: <bb76ef4c.0408222159.51a16d7e@posting.google.com>

Hi!

For a regression test setup on web interfaces, I use a test tool which
in a very heavywight fashion uses the COM interface to the Internet
Explorer (of course, from Python, ver 2.3.4, win32com build 163,
Windows XP, IExp ver 6.0.2800). During a session, many COM controls
are installed in order to trace actions inside the Internet Explorer.

After a certain amount (100?) of sessions (each about 2 until 5
minutes), allocating a new InternetExplorer control is not possible
any more, throwing an exception. The code snippet

    [...]
    try:
        iexp = InternetExplorer()
    except pythoncom_error:
        ...
    [...]

(where InternetExplorer is the COM class materialized by makepy) then
leads to the except branch.

This "denial" state persists until a certain amount of time (may be
half an hour) has passed.

Its worth noting that each session is carried out sequentially in a
distinct process. I also made certain assurance tests on free memory
and CPU resources - there is definitvly no bottleneck. The issue
therefore seems to be a COM scale problem.

Has anyone experience with a comparable scale problem and knows how to
cirumvent it?

Any suggestion welcomed.


Thanks & Greetings
Florian Haftmann


From meldron at meldron.org  Tue Aug 24 16:28:14 2004
From: meldron at meldron.org (Bernd Kaiser)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 22:28:14 +0200
Subject: Printing date a file
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2296.1093373725.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2296.1093373725.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2p1mkcFfod4gU1@uni-berlin.de>

I would use the "International Date Format (ISO 8601)"

CCYY-MM-DD (2004-08-24)

Regards,
Bernd Kaiser

Kory Wheatley wrote:
> In Python how would you print the date in a file, I
> have a logging program written in python and for each
> new recorded added to the file, I would like to print
> the 
> date, something like this below:
> 
> 08/24/2004 or 08-24-2004
> 
> --
> Kory Wheatley
> 
> 
> 		
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Mon Aug 23 13:58:46 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 13:58:46 -0400
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<278de0e.0408220636.3ee25f9d@posting.google.com>
	<mYGdnT5L6pqMJ7XcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
	<278de0e.0408221450.324e8178@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgdb8m$1bs$1@panix2.panix.com>

In article <278de0e.0408221450.324e8178 at posting.google.com>,
Neuruss <luismg at gmx.net> wrote:
>
>Excuse me?
>It seems that you're missing the point. There's nothing wrong with my
>way of thinking, which is not "narrow" at all.

Yes, it is.

>I love Python. It's an excellent, fun, clear, well designed language
>and it is fast enough for 90% of the cases. But you can't deny that
>for some problem domains, it is slow. Very slow.

That's true.  If that's what you'd said in the first place, nobody would
have argued with you.  However, this is what you said:

    It seems there are quite a few projects aimed to improve Python's
    speed and, therefore, eliminate its main limitation for mainstream
    acceptance.

If you're going to make a claim that speed is Python's main limitation,
you'll need to provide evidence to support your assertion.

>I didn't want to start a silly thread to discuss wether python is slow
>or not. It is. Period.

Nope.  Speed is relative.  Is a car slow?  Depends whether you're trying
to go five feet, five miles, fifty miles, five hundred miles, or five
thousand miles -- and it also depends on the alternatives available for
traversing that distance.  Repeatedly claiming that Python is slow as an
absolute statement only shows your ignorance and unwillingness to listen
to other people.

>All the other comments on this thread, regarding the main limitation
>for python's acceptance are true, but speed is critical, and this is
>were all efforts should be concentrated.

That's nice.  If that's your belief, what are you doing to work on this?

>So my intention when I started this thread, was to learn more about
>these projects, read other oppinions, get some news, etc... I didn't
>mean to start a a nonsense discussion!

Believe me, I'm sympathetic to the fact that English is not a comfortable
language for you.  However, at this point, the problem appears to be a
thinking problem, not a language problem.  You simply hold an opinion at
odds with the experience of many expert Python programmers, and it's one
that is almost guaranteed to start an argument.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From michele.simionato at gmail.com  Sat Aug  7 03:54:12 2004
From: michele.simionato at gmail.com (Michele Simionato)
Date: 7 Aug 2004 00:54:12 -0700
Subject: How do you feel ?
References: <mailman.940.1087222870.6949.python-list@python.org>
	<41141FF1.2030606@charter.net>
Message-ID: <4edc17eb.0408062354.a8d6429@posting.google.com>

Howard Stearns <howard.stearns at charter.net> wrote in message news:<41141FF1.2030606 at charter.net>...
> Of course, the first thing I did was re-implement generic functions.  But 
> other than that, I'm must using the libraries. They're good. I'm having 
> fun again!


Oh, here you are! Just today, I have written a post which use your generic
functions module in combination with decorators! 

> The one thing I've found annoying is that I haven't yet discovered how to 
> do whatever I want in lambda expressions. I have top-level assignments 
> where I'd like create a function to use as the the value being assigned. I 
> don't know how to define a named function in a top-level assignment, and a 

> lambda won't allow me to use 'try' and other statements -- just 
> expressions. Or am I looking at things wrong?
> 

You cannot use "lambda" as you would do in Lisp; you must use named 
functions. Fortunately, decorators help a bit (see my post on generic functions).

            Michele Simionato


From fperez528 at yahoo.com  Sat Aug  7 21:46:25 2004
From: fperez528 at yahoo.com (Fernando Perez)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 19:46:25 -0600
Subject: Plotting histograms, scatter plots in Python
References: <d1f3d1d3.0408061018.137b600f@posting.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.06.21.13.49.266713@hotmail.com>
	<7S4Rc.49729$Vm1.1245341@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <cf40ls$l5l$1@peabody.colorado.edu>

Colin J. Williams wrote:

> 
> 
> Paramjit Oberoi wrote:
>>>What is the easiest way to generate some plots and graphs in Python ?
>> 
>> 
>> Pychart:
>> http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Yasushi_Saito/pychart/
> 
> The charts look good, but the source code links fail.

I found it funny that the author makes a comment about poor PostScript quality
in Gnuplot, touting his as an alternative.  If the examples on that page are to
be believed, that stuff looks like low-quality Excel-type business charts,
while Gnuplot has been producing publication quality EPS for a loooong time
(ask the many thousands of scientists using it since the early 90's).

I'd say that matplotlib is the _real_ contender to gnuplot today, not that toy
with horrible font scaling, no apparent real symbol/math support, ugly legend
boxes...

Best,

f


From tdelaney at avaya.com  Thu Aug 19 20:11:00 2004
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy))
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:11:00 +1000
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
Message-ID: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01D591AC@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

Neil Zanella wrote:

> Well, allow me to contribute my thoughts on staticmethod and
> classmethod: 
> I am barely starting out with Python and my class objects are already
> loaded with so many
> 
> foo = staticmethod(foo)

These two facts could be somewhat related ... ;)

Tim Delaney


From martin at v.loewis.de  Tue Aug  3 02:13:13 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 08:13:13 +0200
Subject: IronPython-0.6 is now available!
In-Reply-To: <b83c9f9c.0408021440.2001d7ad@posting.google.com>
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>	<ce9cp3$g39$1@bagan.srce.hr>
	<mailman.908.1091065191.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<410963E4.2040106@v.loewis.de>
	<b83c9f9c.0408021440.2001d7ad@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <410F2CF9.6000702@v.loewis.de>

Ely Stob wrote:
> Where is the referent of your asterisk?

Oops. It slipped under the table. Here it is:

(*) A lot of languages which appear to be supported on .NET really
aren't, atleast not in their original form. Instead, a .NET version
of the language gets defined, which deviates in its semantics and
feature set from the original syntax. I would expect the same to be
the case for IronPython.

> I'm very much interested in why you insist that the CLR does not work
> well for Python, in the face of an apparently solid existence proof,
> in the form of IronPython, that that simply isn't the case.
> 
> I know you have a sound understanding of Python, and sometimes
> understanding beats apparent empirical evidence...

So far, I believe it is hard to tell, because IronPython is still
not complete. However, I firmly believe that you cannot make a
full Python implementation (i.e. with the language reference and
the portable standard libraries) on .NET which is also CLS
compliant. Maybe IronPython does not aim at being CLS compliant,
which might improve the chances that it is Python.

To see what I mean in other languages: Managed C++ is a language
different from C++, for example, the delete operator has a different
meaning in managed C++ than it has in standard C++. Likewise, J#
is a language different from Java. Essentially, I believe that
all these .NET languages are just different ways to write C#.

Regards,
Martin


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Thu Aug  5 15:55:01 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 15:55:01 -0400
Subject: Confused about pep 318
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com><mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org><d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com><Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu><mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org><10h4s026oapbhf1@corp.supernews.com>
	<e69d3ed2040805110243768538@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ceu3an$19j$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Anthony Baxter" <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e69d3ed2040805110243768538 at mail.gmail.com...
> Sorry, but if discussions on python-dev are not considered "public", what
is?
> It's an open list, with publically available archives.

For those who prefer a newgroup interface, for the selective download into
a separate box, gmane.org carries it as comp.lang.python.devel.  Also,
Brett Cannon's summaries have been posted here on c.l.py for nearly two
years, with references to the appropriate threads in the archives.

Terry J. Reedy





From max at alcyone.com  Thu Aug 26 19:27:31 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:27:31 -0700
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<VJOdnfiBTci22rDcRVn-gg@adelphia.com>
	<aNidnUSV4-OK4rDcRVn-jA@powergate.ca>
	<b301fb47.0408260503.5dbb08f5@posting.google.com>
	<cgkqva$47g$1@swifty.westend.com>
	<mailman.2427.1093530870.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <412E71E3.C4A2A7A0@alcyone.com>

Marco Aschwanden wrote:

> > What does the Kaj ... phrase mean?
> > "You are dumb", "Your joke is dumb", ...?
> 
> >> Bonvolu ne s:ercu pri nekonatoj aferoj. "Xah Lee" certe - pro manko de
> Please don't make jokes about unknown things. "Xah Lee" for certain - [for
> esperanto] failing to have the
> 
> >> Ikso - ne estas esperanto. Kaj via s:erco nur s:tulta estas.
> letter 'y' - is not esperanto. And your joke is nothing but stupid.

That's two bad translations so far.

"Please don't joke about unknown issues.  'Xah Lee' certainly, on
account of the lack of an X, is not Esperanto.'  And your joke is only
stupid."  (Though _stupid_ was misspelled.)

"Xah Lee" doesn't have a Y in it, after all!

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ The main thing in life is not to be afraid of being human.
    -- Pablo Casals


From peufeu at free.fr  Wed Aug 25 04:48:20 2004
From: peufeu at free.fr (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Pierre-Fr=E9d=E9ric_Caillaud?=)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:48:20 +0200
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
References: <mailman.1850.1092826328.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<dSDVc.9181$9R.1949@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>
	<7xbrh4zd21.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <opsc95eui11v4ijd@musicbox>


	I want co-routines too !
	There is a web framework (don't remember the name) which models page  
sequences as continuations. This is terrific. Think about multipage forms,  
for instance.
	I wish Python could do this.

> There's another issue, which is I think Michael may be talking about a
> more powerful type of generator than the kind built into normal
> Python.  But I'm not sure of that.



From jack at performancedrivers.com  Sun Aug 29 01:43:10 2004
From: jack at performancedrivers.com (Jack Diederich)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 01:43:10 -0400
Subject: Announcing PyCs, a new Python-like language on .Net
In-Reply-To: <1aj14grs82tj.1eso0930azfaa$.dlg@40tude.net>
References: <1aj14grs82tj.1eso0930azfaa$.dlg@40tude.net>
Message-ID: <20040829054310.GB17735@performancedrivers.com>

On Sat, Aug 28, 2004 at 08:44:48PM -0700, Mark Hahn wrote:
> 
> This is an announcement of the beginning of development of a new
> Python-like language called PyCs (pronounced "pie-cees"). Like IronPython,
> PyCs will be Python on .Net but it will have more advanced features and
> probably have higher performance due to a Psyco-like implementation
> technique.  See http://pycs.org.  
> 
> PyCs is a fusion of Python and C#.

All joking not aside, what is next, P?

-jack

ps, not intended but that could qualify as a lisp joke.


From jens.news at webgear.co.za  Sat Aug 14 13:01:19 2004
From: jens.news at webgear.co.za (Jens Thiede)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 19:01:19 +0200
Subject: Regular Expressions
In-Reply-To: <874qn53dfy.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
References: <cflc77$p20$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
	<874qn53dfy.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
Message-ID: <cflgi8$3q4$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

Right, but if you add (.*) then you get:

 >>> obj=re.compile(r'<t>(.*?)</t>', re.S|re.I)
 >>> obj.split('def<T>abc\n def</T>ghi jkl\nmno\n<t>abc</t>haha')
['def', 'abc\n def', 'ghi jkl\nmno\n', 'abc', 'haha']
 >>> obj.findall('def<T>abc\n def</T>ghi jkl\nmno\n<t>abc</t>haha')
['abc\n def', 'abc']

*Note*: 'abc\n def' appears twice.

Any suggestions?

Jens.

Isaac To wrote:
>>>>>>"Jens" == Jens Thiede <jens.news at webgear.co.za> writes:
> 
> 
>     Jens> What is the easiest way to generate a list that contains all
>     Jens> the remnants of re.findall (the inverse of the following).
> 
> You mean, complement?
> 
>     Jens> re.split doesn't seem to work quite well
> 
> Why?
> 
> 
>>>>obj=re.compile(r'<t>.*?</t>', re.S|re.I)
>>>>obj.split('def<T>abc\n def</T>ghi jkl\nmno\n<t>abc</t>haha')
> 
> ['def', 'ghi jkl\nmno\n', 'haha']
> 
>>>>obj.findall('def<T>abc\n def</T>ghi jkl\nmno\n<t>abc</t>haha')
> 
> ['<T>abc\n def</T>', '<t>abc</t>']
> 
> 
>>>>obj=re.compile(r'<t>.*</t>', re.S|re.I)
>>>>obj.split('def<T>abc\n def</T>ghi jkl\nmno\n<t>abc</t>haha')
> 
> ['def', 'haha']
> 
>>>>obj.findall('def<T>abc\n def</T>ghi jkl\nmno\n<t>abc</t>haha')
> 
> ['<T>abc\n def</T>ghi jkl\nmno\n<t>abc</t>']
> 
> Looks like it is doing the job, right?
> 
> Regards,
> Isaac.


From http  Fri Aug 20 03:31:35 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 00:31:35 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <7x3c2iw9ig.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

"Paul McGuire" <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> writes:
> I would propose a multivote survey: each poster gets 3 votes among the
> lettered choices on the Wiki page above.  You can use all 3 for a single
> option, or split them across 2 or 3 options if you are open to more than
> one.

1. My favorite variant was not in the list.

2. Any of the choices will have far reaching consequences that aren't
   yet thought out very well.  There is not yet enough experience
   programming with the existing mechanisms (classmethods etc.) to
   be sure what's really worthwhile.  

3. There's not all that much discussion on the wiki of how other
   languages do this stuff.

4. There's nowhere near consensus that any of the choices presented so
   far are not plain horrible.

My conclusion: Python 2.4 should not have new decorator syntax.  Stay
with the existing stuff, for now.

Discussion and exploration should continue and the question should be
revisited for 2.5.  For 2.4, extend the current kludgy (decorators
separated from the function) mechanism if needed to provide necessary
functionality, but deprecate any new such feature as soon as it's
introduced, with the explanation that it's exploratory. 


From jgilbert+pythong at uvm.edu  Tue Aug 17 11:33:47 2004
From: jgilbert+pythong at uvm.edu (jgilbert)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:33:47 -0400
Subject: Editors again
In-Reply-To: <cfrbse$j8n$1@bagan.srce.hr>
References: <cfrbse$j8n$1@bagan.srce.hr>
Message-ID: <cft8gn$gjhm$1@swen.emba.uvm.edu>

Ivan Voras wrote:
> Are there any editors besides IDLE that can display doc-strings[*] in 
> popups? I tried SPE and DrPython, and while they are ok (better said 
> 'not horribly bad'), they don't seem to have that option.
> 
> I'd like to see in an editor:
>  - code-completion in case of functions, member variables etc. 
> ("intelli-sense"? :) )
>  - useful usage of doc-strings, maybe integrated python Help/Manual support
>  - MDI or similar style, with good navigation (this is why I don't like 
> IDLE)
> 
> Actually, SPE is pretty close, but auto-completion seems to behave 
> 'funny' sometimes, and no doc-string support I can see...
> 
> 
> 
> [*] Maybe I misnamed them. I was thinking of:
> def f():
>     """This is a doc-string"""
>     pass

There is but one Python editor and his name is Eric3 
(http://www.die-offenbachs.de/detlev/eric3.html).

I'm not associated with the project (tho I have sent in bugs), my bias is one of 
deep fondness. It's written in Python (yay!) and uses QT for widgets. This means 
that to run it under Windows I use Cygwin's X server and tunnel my X connection 
through SSH. Piece of cake, really.

Yep.


From Mike at Geary.com  Sun Aug  8 02:39:02 2004
From: Mike at Geary.com (Michael Geary)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 23:39:02 -0700
Subject: Paul Graham on Python hackers
References: <cf1p1f$ke0@odak26.prod.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.07.10.51.16.393303@teliko.net>
	<du7r7qjnjvl.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>
Message-ID: <10hbik7nskhgn90@corp.supernews.com>

>     >> (In all seriousness I think python and java have a lot more in
>     >> common than python and perl.)
>
>     zoltan> This a flamebait, right? Otherwise I would be interested
>     zoltan> in the features which make Python similar to Java
>     zoltan> (shudder).

Ville Vainio:
> Abundant reference semantics. Of course this is true of all OOP
> language, and Java doesn't go all the way with it either, but it's the
> most popular language that does it. It is also the first OOP language
> that does it that I tried, and I totally digged Java for a while
> before meeting Python and other languages that do it, and realized
> Java is still yet another static-typing-done-wrong low level language.

What are "Abundant reference semantics"?

I agree wholeheartedly with your conclusion; I'm just not sure what the
premise is.

Thanks,

-Mike




From nhodgson at bigpond.net.au  Sat Aug  7 18:35:12 2004
From: nhodgson at bigpond.net.au (Neil Hodgson)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 22:35:12 GMT
Subject: Compiling disutil modules on Windows
References: <mailman.1339.1091911498.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <AOcRc.39319$K53.15648@news-server.bigpond.net.au>

Geoff Caplan:

> I am aware that MS have released a free version of the latest Visual
> Studio 7 compiler. I have installed this but disutils doesn't
> recognise it. I can't find a free release of the MVC++ compiler: does
> such a thing exist?

   You could try to use mingw:
http://sebsauvage.net/python/mingw.html

   Neil




From knight at baldmt.com  Wed Aug 18 11:57:08 2004
From: knight at baldmt.com (Steven Knight)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:57:08 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: ANN: SCons.0.96 adds Fortran 90/95 support, better Qt support,
 platform-independent file system actions, improved debugging, lots more
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408181556310.28666-100000@casablanca.home.baldmt.com>

SCons is a software construction tool (build tool, or make tool) written
in Python.  It is based on the design which won the Software Carpentry
build tool competition in August 2000.

Version 0.96 of SCons has been released and is available for download
from the SCons web site:

	http://www.scons.org/

Or through the download link at the SCons project page at SourceForge:

	http://sourceforge.net/projects/scons/

RPM and Debian packages and a Win32 installer are all available, in
addition to the traditional .tar.gz and .zip files.


WHAT'S NEW IN THIS RELEASE?

IMPORTANT:  Release 0.96 contains the following interface changes:

  - All Builder calls now return a *list* of Nodes, even when the Builder
    only builds one file.  This may require SConscript file changes if
    you were manipulating the return values from Builders.
  - The SConsignFile() function now uses a different internal database
    format by default.  This will cause a rebuild when you upgrade to
    0.96 unless you modify your SConsignFile() call.
  - The internal format of .sconsign files has been changed.  The change
    was coded to be backwards-compatible, but there might be corner
    cases that cause warnings about "ignoring corrupt .sconsign files"
    and rebuilds when you use SCons 0.96 for the first time in an
    already-built tree.
  - The scan_check function that can be supplied to a custom Scanner now
    must take two arguments, the Node to be checked and a construction
    environment.  It previously only used the Node as an argument.
  - The internal "node_factory" and "scanner" keyword arguments have
    been removed from the Builder() function, in favor of separate
    "target_factory," "source_factory," "target_scanner" and
    "source"scanner" keywords, which are now documented.
  - The Scanner add_skey() function has been dropped in favor of using
    construction variables for the lists of file suffixes known to
    a Scanner.
  - File name extensions that contain all digits are now assumed to
    be version numbers and treated as part of the file basename.
  - The env.Append() and env.Prepend() methods have been changed to
    behave like the rest of Python when either argument is a UserList.

  See the release notes for more information about these changes.

This release adds the following new features:

  - A new --debug=explain option tells SCons to report the reason(s)
    why it thinks it must rebuild something.
  - New Moc() and Uic() Builders provide more explicit control over
    Qt builds, plus new construction variables to control them:
    $QT_AUTOSCAN, $QT_DEBUG, $QT_MOCCXXPREFIX, $QT_MOCCXXSUFFIX,
    $QT_MOCHPREFIX, $QT_MOCHSUFFIX, $QT_UICDECLPREFIX, $QT_UICDECLSUFFIX,
    $QT_UICIMPLPREFIX, $QT_UICIMPLSUFFIX and $QT_UISUFFIX.
  - Support for Fortran 90 and Fortran 95 has been added.
  - The newer "ifort" versions of the Intel Fortran Compiler for Linux
    are now supported.
  - New functions have been added to return platform-independent Actions
    that Chmod(), Copy(), Delete(), Mkdir(), Move() and Touch() files
    and/or directories.
  - A new Execute() function can now execute Actions directly at
    SConscript-read time.
  - A new $RPATH variable has been added that specifies a list of
    directories for the GNU and IRIX linkers to search for shared
    libraries.
  - New $CPPSUFFIXES, $DSUFFIXES, $FORTRANSUFFIXES and $IDLSUFFIXES
    variables have been added that make it easier to arrange for
    additional file suffixes to be scanned by the default Scanners.
  - A new Flatten() function can be used to turn nested lists of Nodes
    (or other arguments) into a flat list.
  - A new --debug=presub option prints the commands to be executed before
    their construction variables are expanded.
  - A new .win32 Node attribute will expand file names with Windows
    backslash path separators on any system.
  - A new ARGLIST variable makes it possible to fetch keyword=value
    arguments in the order specified on the command line.
  - Support has been added for the .dylib shared library suffix
    and -dynamiclib linker option on Mac OS X (darwin).

This release enhances the following existing features:

  - Environment override keywords can now be passed to the Command()
    Builder.
  - An emitter argument to a Builder() can now be a list of emitters
    that will be called in sequence.
  - The Java() Builder can now take more than one source directory.
  - Scanners can now use suffix lists from construction variable
    expansions.
  - ParseConfig() now recognizes the -Wa, -Wl, -Wp and -pthread flags
    and adds them to the appropriate variable(s).
  - Dir (directory) Nodes can now be be created with user-specified
    Builder objects.
  - The SConf.CheckLib() method can now search a list of libraries.
  - The env.WhereIs() method now takes a "reject" argument to weed out
    specific path names.
  - When calling Builders, SCons now issues a warning upon use of
    the keywords "targets" and "sources", which are virtually always
    typographic errors that otherwise silently (and confusingly) turn
    into construction variable overrides.
  - The $ASCOM, $ASPPCOM, $LINKCOM, $SHLINKCOM, $ARCOM, $LEXCOM and
    $YACCCOM variables all have wrapper Actions by default.  This makes
    it easier to replace the default print behavior with a custom
    strfunction().
  - Individual tools that create libraries now override the default
    $LIBPREFIX and $LIBSUFFIX values set by the platform.  This makes
    it easier to use Microsoft Visual Studio tools on a CygWin platform.
  - If Visual Studio is installed, SCons now assumes its C/C++ compiler,
    its linker and its MIDL compiler are available, too.
  - SCons now searches for the ICL license file path name in the external
    environment and the registry before resorting to the hard-coded
    path name.
  - When using Visual Studio, SCons now generates the PDB files at link
    time, not compile time.
  - Dependency tracking has been modified to eliminate spurious circular
    dependencies in certain corner cases involving generated header
    files, and to avoid rebuilding generated .h files when a #included
    .h file changes.
  - The internal Task.make_ready() method now creates a list of the
    out-of-date Nodes for the task for use by the wrapping interface.
  - A new single_source keyword argument when creating a Builder enforces
    a single source file on calls to that Builder.

The following fixes have been added:

  - The CacheDir() directory is now created if it doesn't exist.
  - Construction variables can now be substituted in $LIBS expansions,
    and $LIBS expansions now properly ignore null library values.
  - Construction variables that can be searched for libraries now remove
    .dll files from the list before feeding the list to Win32 compilers.
  - All *PATH variables can now expand to include Nodes.
  - The name of a Scanner.Classic instance is now initialized correctly.
  - SCons now handles dangling symlinks without generating a stack trace.
  - env.SourceCode() now works properly when called with an individual
    file name or Node, not just with a directory name or Node.
  - SCons now handles the lack of an external PATH environment variable.
  - Use of $MSVS_IGNORE_IDE_PATHS was broken in 0.95 and is now fixed.
  - The Command() global function now works properly with string actions;
    this was broken in 0.95.
  - A bug introduced in 0.95 in building shared libraries under MinGW
    has been fixed.
  - SCons now handles null entries (None or '') in tool lists or CPPPATH.
  - SCons now handles exceptions in thread-safe ways, according to
    Pythonic standards.
  - Error messages have been improved when the evaluation of a
    construction variable expansion yields a Python syntax error.
  - File names on command lines are now escaped properly when the
    expansion is concatenated with another string.

Performance has been improved as follows:

  - Node creation has been sped up when calling a Builder by comparing
    whether environments are the same object, not whether they have
    equivalent construction variables.
  - File system Nodes now cache their generated string values after
    we've finished reading the SConscript() files.
  - Node lookup has been made slightly more efficient.
  - Deleting parents' implicit dependencies after a Node has been built
    has been made more efficient.

The documentation has been improved:

  - The User's Guide has had the following chapters and sections added:
    A chapter describing how to install Python and SCons; a section
    describing the declarative nature of SCons functions in SConscript
    files; a chapter describing File and Directory Nodes and the return
    values from Builders; a chapter describing the SConf (Autoconf-like)
    functionality; a chapter describing Java builds.
  - The early chapters of the User's Guide have been reorganized to
    better explain concepts for new users (based on input from Robert
    P. J. Day, many thanks).
  - User's Guide fixes: the signatures of the various example *Options()
    calls; triple-quote properly a multi-line Split() example.
  - Man page additions: an example and explanation of how to use "tools =
    ['default', ..."  when creating a construction environment; a section
    describing File and Directory Nodes and some of their attributes
    and methods; a section describing use of the target_factory and
    source_factory keyword arguments when creating Builder objects.
  - Man page fixes:  formatting typos, misspellings, fix a bad example.


ABOUT SCONS

Distinctive features of SCons include:

  - a global view of all dependencies; no multiple passes to get
    everything built properly
  - configuration files are Python scripts, allowing the full use of a
    real scripting language to solve difficult build problems
  - a modular architecture allows the SCons Build Engine to be
    embedded in other Python software
  - the ability to scan files for implicit dependencies (#include files);
  - improved parallel build (-j) support that provides consistent
    build speedup regardless of source tree layout
  - use of MD5 signatures to decide if a file has really changed; no
    need to "touch" files to fool make that something is up-to-date
  - easily extensible through user-defined Builder and Scanner objects
  - build actions can be Python code, as well as external commands

An scons-users mailing list is available for those interested in getting
started using SCons.  You can subscribe at:

	http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/scons-users

Alternatively, we invite you to subscribe to the low-volume
scons-announce mailing list to receive notification when new versions of
SCons become available:

	http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/scons-announce


ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

Special thanks to Chad Austin, Charles Crain, Tom Epperly, Ralf
W. Grosse-Kunstleve, Jonathan Gurley, Bob Halley, Chris Hoeppler, James
Juhasz, Chris Murray, Gary Oberbrunner, Simon Perkins, Kevin Quick,
Anthony Roach, sam th and Christoph Wiedemann for their contributions
to this release.

On behalf of the SCons team,

	--SK



From arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE  Fri Aug 13 19:20:42 2004
From: arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE (Arien Malec)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 23:20:42 GMT
Subject: PEP 318 decorators are not Decorators
References: <Xns9543CB4CF5EDFarienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.7>
	<cfhsri$a1q$1@news1.wdf.sap-ag.de>
	<Xns95446284A8DA2arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.29>
	<mailman.1625.1092418237.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Xns9544A70A17365arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>

Skip Montanaro <skip at pobox.com> wrote in
news:mailman.1625.1092418237.5135.python-list at python.org: 
>     Arien> 3) Won't most programmers think GoF decorators before
>     compiler syntax tree decorators?
> 
> Not if they are unfamiliar with the GoF patterns (myself included).

Google: 

decorate "syntax tree" -pattern --> 129 hits
decorator "syntax tree" -pattern --> 20 hits
decorator pattern -"syntax tree" --> about 62,000 hits

Arien


From rich.teer at rite-group.com  Wed Aug 25 20:24:31 2004
From: rich.teer at rite-group.com (Rich Teer)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:24:31 GMT
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
In-Reply-To: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.58.0408251722510.568@zaphod.rite-group.com>

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Xah Lee wrote:

> Did you know that throughout history there's this thing called cult?

I think you're getting confused with the Blue ?yster Cult.
Don't Fear the Reaper - great song.

-- 
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA, author of "Solaris Systems Programming",
published in August 2004.

President,
Rite Online Inc.

Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-group.com/rich


From mcfletch at rogers.com  Fri Aug 20 14:36:08 2004
From: mcfletch at rogers.com (Mike C. Fletcher)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:36:08 -0400
Subject: classes are objects... so how can we custom print them: we need
 a	classmethod syntax
In-Reply-To: <b68d2f19.0408201011.7b5eab21@posting.google.com>
References: <b68d2f19.0408201011.7b5eab21@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <41264498.1030507@rogers.com>

 From my metaclasses presentation:

"""Simple example of changing class repr"""
class Meta( type ):
    def __repr__( cls ):
        return '<OhLookAMetaClass>'
class X:
    __metaclass__ = Meta
   
# this uses the meta-property for lookup
assert repr(X) == '<OhLookAMetaClass>'

Code and presentation available at:
    http://www.vrplumber.com/programming/

HTH,
Mike

Neil Zanella wrote:

>Hello,
>
>In Python, classes are objects. But there is no way to custom print a class
>object. This would require some syntax such as the one commented out below:
>With the current "foo = classmethod(foo)" mechanism custom printing for
>class objects is not possible.
>  
>
...
 
________________________________________________
  Mike C. Fletcher
  Designer, VR Plumber, Coder
  http://www.vrplumber.com
  http://blog.vrplumber.com



From robin at reportlab.com  Wed Aug 18 12:27:32 2004
From: robin at reportlab.com (Robin Becker)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:27:32 +0100
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <r7q4s9yy.fsf@python.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<41237124.4060600@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<r7q4s9yy.fsf@python.net>
Message-ID: <41238374.3060105@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>

Thomas Heller wrote:

> Robin Becker <robin at reportlab.com> writes:
> 
> 
>>Lucas Raab wrote:
>>
>>
>>>One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
>>>Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
>>>about....
>>>
>>
>>57, used to build my own logic using gas discharge tubes :)
> 
> 
> 48, but my first logic was build using 24V relays.

yea I also did stuff with relays and strowger telephone switches, far more 
exciting than billions of fet transistors simulating an electric fire :)

-- 
Robin Becker


From elainejackson7355 at home.com  Mon Aug 30 04:31:10 2004
From: elainejackson7355 at home.com (Elaine Jackson)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 08:31:10 GMT
Subject: play a midi file from the interpreter?
References: <95tYc.261224$J06.123492@pd7tw2no> <4132CFE1.20004@mxm.dk>
Message-ID: <iBBYc.265950$J06.164266@pd7tw2no>

Could you sketch me a useage example? I'm finding the documentation extremely
sparse. I've heard of 'pipes', but I don't actually know what they are.

"Max M" <maxm at mxm.dk> wrote in message news:4132CFE1.20004 at mxm.dk...
| Elaine Jackson wrote:
| > (How) can you make it so that a function invoked in the python interpreter
can
| > run another program? (Like the webbrowser module does, only not with a web
| > browser.) If it matters the OS is Windows98 and the specific aim in mind is
to
| > have a function that saves some data as a midi file and then causes the said
| > midi file to play.
|
|
| Use the popen() call in the os module.
|
| regards Max M




From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 11:39:35 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:39:35 -0500
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <41260c4a$0$27219$61ce578d@news.syd.swiftdsl.com.au>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>	<dave.opstad-73EBC2.07415018082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
	<mailman.1884.1092846477.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<41260c4a$0$27219$61ce578d@news.syd.swiftdsl.com.au>
Message-ID: <hWoVc.362$MR2.1511@news1.mts.net>

huy wrote:
> Skip Montanaro wrote:
> 
>>     Dave> Python fits my brain.
>>
>> I agree.  This gets my nod for QOTW.
>>
>> Skip
> 
> 
> Lucky for me I found python before Java took over my brain.
> 
> Huy

Amen to that!


From follower at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 21:32:07 2004
From: follower at gmail.com (Follower)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 18:32:07 -0700
Subject: ANN: Python Decrypt PDF script -- builds on pdftools
References: <mailman.1868.1092839116.5135.python-announce-list@python.org>
	<4de76ee2.0408200350.3ccb9c50@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <3c18c08f.0408201732.6766d375@posting.google.com>

davidb at mcs.st-and.ac.uk (David Boddie) wrote in message news:<4de76ee2.0408200350.3ccb9c50 at posting.google.com>...
> Unfortunately, I couldn't find any protected PDF files to test your script
> out on. Can you provide some URLs?
I found some examples here (protected/encrypted with no user
password):

 * <http://www.idealsoftware.com/ev_pdf_samples.htm>
 * <http://www.paisano.com/pdf/pdftest.htm>

It also looks like the following GPL'd tool enables you to encrypt
without Adobe tools:

 * <http://www.accesspdf.com/pdftk/>

> Do you want to supply a patch for pdftools to allow these sorts of files
> to be supported transparently?
The code works well enough for me at the moment that my motivation for
taking it further is a little low at the moment, sorry. :-) I'm not
sure how straight-forward it would be to add it transparently, as at a
minimum I think it needs to handle strings and streams differently. I
will keep your request in mind though...

Incidentally, have you considered making the Numeric import in
pdftools optional? I just commented it out and things worked fine for
me as I wasn't actually accessing page content.

Thanks for your work with pdftools.

--Phil.


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Sun Aug  8 00:27:54 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 08 Aug 2004 06:27:54 +0200
Subject: @decorators
References: <d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa@posting.google.com>
	<eTMQc.36328$K53.24420@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040808vhh7@bombur.uio.no>

Neil Hodgson wrote:
>daishi:
> 
>> As far as I know, the proposed @decorator syntax will be the first
>> time that two logical lines of python with the same indentation will
>> not be independent of one another. Previously, when looking at:
>>
>> some_python(code)
>> and_some_more = stuff
>>
>> there was no need to look at the the first line in order to know what
>> the second line meant/did (and vice versa).
> 
>    Much of the time, consecutive lines with the same indentation are highly
> dependent with earlier lines modifying the behaviour of successor lines:
> 
>    global x
>    x = 9

Poor example.  They are visually tied together in that they both mention
the variable x.  '@decorator's do not mention the function they affect.

-- 
Hallvard


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Sun Aug 29 11:45:24 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 08:45:24 -0700
Subject: Announcing PyCs, a new Python-like language on .Net
References: <1aj14grs82tj.1eso0930azfaa$.dlg@40tude.net>
	<mailman.2573.1093758218.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1093794853.349452@news.commspeed.net>

> > PyCs is a fusion of Python and C#.
>
> All joking not aside, what is next, P?
>
> -jack
>
How about P# , nice and short for the cut and paste challenged.
By naming it PyCs they are just trying to glom (or is that glob) onto
Python's fame. Why not just name it something new like Omnimegagolopolic-OO.

Tom




From alanmk at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 27 08:30:00 2004
From: alanmk at hotmail.com (Alan Kennedy)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:30:00 +0100
Subject: Michael Sparks in October 2004 PCW.
Message-ID: <bLFXc.25919$Z14.8249@news.indigo.ie>

Dear Pythonistas,

One of our own, Michael Sparks, appears in an article in the October 
2004 print edition of Personal Computer World, on the future of digital 
television and the digitisation of BBC television archives.

http://www.pcw.co.uk/news/1157046

At least, I'm assuming that there's only one engineer called Michael 
Sparks who works for BBC research!

For those unaware of it, Personal Computer World is the most venerable 
IT magazine in the UK: sort of the UK's equivalent of Byte Magazine. And 
it's still going. I've been reading it on and off for almost 25 years 
now, since the zx81 and oric-1(!) days.

Fascinating work, Michael! I'd love to talk with you sometime about your 
usage of python co-routines and asynch-io in the media field. I've been 
following the development of digital television standards for a few 
years now.

I have a lot of respect for the BBC, and am particularly impressed by 
their current software efforts, such as Dirac.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/dirac/overview.shtml

It's good to see a familiar (and quotable :-) pythonista right there in 
the midst of it.

Nice one, Michael.

-- 
alan kennedy
------------------------------------------------------
email alan:              http://xhaus.com/contact/alan


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 23 08:43:23 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 08:43:23 -0400
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
In-Reply-To: <KqlWc.54712$F85.1167861@wagner.videotron.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408230004350.22879-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>	<mailman.2175.1093233838.5135.python-list@python.org>	<q9OdnRDkR-VsMbTcRVn-pw@lmi.net>	<e69d3ed204082302035e4091ee@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.2193.1093256254.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<KqlWc.54712$F85.1167861@wagner.videotron.net>
Message-ID: <4129E66B.90505@yahoo.com>

Nicolas Fleury wrote:
> Roman Suzi wrote:
> 
>> This surprises me. And this doen't surprise:
>>
>> using:
>>      staticmethod; synchronized; memoize
>> def bar(foo):
>>      "To colon or not to colon? Def is the question."
>>      pass
> 
> 
> +1
> Nicolas

I see that and I can't help but wish for this...

    def bar(foo):
        "To colon or not to colon? Def is the question."
        __using__ = staticmethod, synchronized, momoize
        pass

Paul



From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Thu Aug  5 23:43:29 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 5 Aug 2004 23:43:29 -0400
Subject: Confused about pep 318
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1223.1091728969.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<10h4vhcfbsv6t30@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1241.1091758030.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ceuup1$qm$1@panix3.panix.com>

In article <mailman.1241.1091758030.5135.python-list at python.org>,
Anthony Baxter  <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:36:23 -0500, Edward K. Ream <edreamleo at charter.net> wrote:
>>
>> To repeat: given that pep 318 is grossly misleading, I contend that
>> no proper discussion of it has ever taken place.  Sorry, but if you
>> actively mislead the public, then the public _does_ have a right to
>> complain.  The web is a huge place.  Expecting people to track it
>> without proper notice of what is being discussed is patently unfair.
>
>"Actively mislead the public"? What the hell is that supposed to mean?
>Look, you keep insinuating that there was some sort of evil plot to
>slip this into Python. I can assure you that this is NOT true, and I'm
>getting more than a little bit fed up with this argument.

I'm not reading Edward as claiming the existence of an evil plot.  OTOH,
"actively mislead" is certainly an overstatement, *except* WRT the claim
you're making that there was public discussion of the @ syntax going into
Python.  I think Edward's got a fair point there.

Also, there has historically been an expectation that PEPs will be
posted to comp.lang.python in their final draft form; while I agree with
you that python-dev is a public forum, I think the outrage expressed by
those who believed that they didn't *NEED* to monitor python-dev is
entirely understandable.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Tue Aug 10 15:30:38 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 19:30:38 GMT
Subject: pro python paper
References: <305aa162.0408091905.5bce8f9a@posting.google.com>
	<3064b51d.0408100549.213dad5@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <yn9Sc.10724$KZ2.4554@fe2.texas.rr.com>

<beliavsky at aol.com> wrote in message
news:3064b51d.0408100549.213dad5 at posting.google.com...
> ccdetail at gmail.com (ccdetail) wrote in message
news:<305aa162.0408091905.5bce8f9a at posting.google.com>...
> > http://www.journyx.com/pdf/PythonAtAGlance.pdf
> >
> > the above paper is a response to some of our prospects complaints
> >
> > they were asking us why we use python
> >
> > thought you guys might be interested
> >
> > http://journyx.com/clf
>
> I think the paper exaggerates the virtues of Python relative to other
> languages, reducing the credibility of the authors.
<snip>
>

I like Python as much as the next person, but I too thought that the article
was a bit "glowy".  The Key Advantages section especially is made up of
unsupported claims, such as:

"Python is considered by many to be one of, if not *the* premier language
for GUI development..." (Huh? by whom, and compared to what?? - VB? Delphi?
C#? And toolkits like Tk, Qt, etc. are not bound to Python as their
language, so I don't see how they come up with this assertion)
"The Python community is populated by the best minds in software today."
(not to slight any of the Python elite, but I don't think we have a monopoly
on the best minds in software - the Java and C++ milieu can be pretty
impressive, not to mention Lisp, et al.)
"If you need to tie in something written in another language, you can do it
easily." (yes, it CAN be done, but at no less overhead than tying VB and C#,
or C and FORTRAN - so where is the Python edge?)

The countering of the Python Myths reminds me of this MP routine:
"This isn't an argument, it's just contradiction!"
"No it's not!"

While I agree with many of the sentiments expressed, I'm not sure wrapping
them in the format of a white-paper (with such breathless prose!) actually
increases their power or credibility.  A little more concrete supporting
info will go a long way here.

-- Paul




From tjreedy at udel.edu  Thu Aug 26 03:50:31 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 03:50:31 -0400
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgk4o8$e6p$1@sea.gmane.org>

Python is not a cult.  We therefore have no collective interest in trashing
other languages or language designers.






From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 09:00:37 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:00:37 +0200
Subject: Inline Conditionals?
References: <mailman.2307.1093385983.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<jt6dnb18R-cz6LDcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <1gj4rpq.1oyt89b14xvbdqN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:

> Joshua Ginsberg wrote:
> 
> > Is there any plan to include inline conditionals in Python? For example:
> > 
> > def isNegative(x):
> >     return x < 0 ? True : False
> 
> This is a FAQ: 
> 
> Newbies, please consider reading the several FAQs that you will find
> at http://www.python.org/doc/faq/ before posting questions which
> might be answered there (i.e. just about anything).

Peter's right.  And Joshua's example shows how wise the BDFL was in
ruling out ternaries: sure, good programmers might occasionally have
found good uses for them, but we' have paid that with a LOT of horrid
code like that -- I've seen lots like that in C & its ilk, too.

    return x < 0

on its own does EXACTLY the same job as the requested/wished-for

    return x < 0 ? True : False

except is cleaner, clearer, faster, more concise, easier to read.  So,
having a ternary operator would enable a little programming horror that
the lack of a ternary operator dissuades a little.

Of course, absit iniuria verbis, one cannot make anything foolproof,
because fools are SO ingenious -- I've also seen lots of code like:

    if x < 0:
        return True
    else:
        return False

which is, si licet es, even _worse_ than the wished-for ternary use!-)


Alex


From luismg at gmx.net  Tue Aug 17 18:59:07 2004
From: luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 15:59:07 -0700
Subject: Newbie 1st program
References: <f9d01b73.0408161010.1ba5e9e4@posting.google.com>
	<hp6dnbqxhPStYL3cRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<278de0e.0408161537.61ab1301@posting.google.com>
	<30260531.0408170824.3fd74108@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <278de0e.0408171459.49dcba2@posting.google.com>

Thanks for the information on Py2exe.
But I'm affraid I'm having trouble with it...

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "C:\Documents and
Settings\Usuario1\Escritorio\misApps\Grades\setup.py", line 30, in ?
    setup(
  File "C:\Python23\lib\distutils\core.py", line 137, in setup
    raise SystemExit, gen_usage(dist.script_name) + "\nerror: %s" %
msg
SystemExit: usage: setup.py [global_opts] cmd1 [cmd1_opts] [cmd2
[cmd2_opts] ...]
   or: setup.py --help [cmd1 cmd2 ...]
   or: setup.py --help-commands
   or: setup.py cmd --help

error: no commands supplied
>>> 

I've seen the website and tried to follow the instructions, but
there's something I'm doing wrong...how exactly should I run the setup
script?
In my case, the program I want to convert to .exe is located in this
folder:
"C:\Documents and Settings\Usuario1\Escritorio\misApps\Grades", this
is a GUI application made with Pythoncard (wxpython) and there's a
file where a keep data of some serialized objects called
"grades.data".

With this info in mind, how should I do the script?


From dave at pythonapocrypha.com  Mon Aug 30 16:19:17 2004
From: dave at pythonapocrypha.com (Dave Brueck)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:19:17 -0600
Subject: Size of a remote URL
In-Reply-To: <cgvvs5$c1d@odah37.prod.google.com>
References: <cgvvs5$c1d@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <41338BC5.4030602@pythonapocrypha.com>

Justin wrote:

> Ok so the problem is that my code is not requesting the headers
> properly.  I get back.  Just that.  I don't know what the difference is
> between the IE request and mine

Try this:

from socket import *
s = socket(AF_INET, SOCK_STREAM)
s.bind(('',8000))
s.listen(1)

while 1:
   q,v = s.accept()
   print 'Got connection:'
   data = ''
   while 1:
     more = q.recv(8192)
     if not more: break
     data += more
     if data.find('\r\n\r\n') != -1:
       break


Now replace the domain name in the real URL with "127.0.0.1:8000". Feed the URL 
to IE and to your app & compare the output displayed by your "server".

-Dave


From apardon at forel.vub.ac.be  Wed Aug 18 07:44:24 2004
From: apardon at forel.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 11:44:24 GMT
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
References: <mailman.1850.1092826328.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnci6g8o.k5.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>

Op 2004-08-18, Michael Sparks schreef <zathras at thwackety.com>:
> On 17 Aug 2004, Bryan Olson wrote:
> ...
>> Have you been badly bitten by an evil co-routine?
>
> You appear to misunderstand what I was saying. I was not saying
> co-routines are bad. I was saying that generators are, in my experience,
> almost as effective. This isn't attacking anything. It's saying that
> generators really aren't as bad as it appears some people make out.
>
> As for network servers, it looks like the network server system based on
> using generators to gain most of the benefits of co-routines I briefly
> talked about (in one of the lightning talks) at EuroPython has been
> blocked for release as open source :-(
>
> Your arguments in favour of co-routines for servers all hold (IME) for
> generators as well. There is _slight_ extra obfuscation, but nowhere near
> the level of change required for event processing.
>
> NB. The reason I like generators is because they allow me to do
> co-routine-type things in python with no addons. The reason I like
> greenlets is because it seems to go much, much, much further along
> that route _and_ gives a performance boost. Also, I'm not opposed to
> co-routines being added to the language *if* it was done in a manner
> that doesn't confuse new users,

Why should that be a requirement? IMO there is a lot in python
that can confuse new users, so it doesn't make sense to require
that something added to the language shouldn't.

-- 
Antoon Pardon


From jussij at zeusedit.com  Tue Aug 31 10:28:03 2004
From: jussij at zeusedit.com (Jussi Jumppanen)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 00:28:03 +1000
Subject: Intelisence
References: <43SYc.121080$UTP.113615@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
Message-ID: <41348AF3.6DC0@zeusedit.com>

A.M wrote:

> Is there any inelisence IDE (like visual studio) for python?

Take a look at the Zeus for Windows programmers editor:

   http://www.zeusedit.com/lookmain.html

Zeus has an automatic ctags generation feature that is used 
for intellisensing and class browsing.

To make it all work just create a Zeus workspace, add your 
python source files to the workspace and Zeus will manage 
the creation of the ctags file.

You may also need the latest xtags.dll which can be found 
here:

   http://www.zeusedit.com/z300/xtags.zip

Jussi Jumppanen
http://www.zeusedit.com


From news at woody.datatailors.com  Mon Aug  9 18:43:03 2004
From: news at woody.datatailors.com (Peter van Kampen)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 00:43:03 +0200
Subject: cgi script: get the url of this page
References: <mailman.1409.1092077336.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnchfvfm.lt0.news@woody.datatailors.com>

In article <mailman.1409.1092077336.5135.python-list at python.org>, Matt Price wrote:
> A super simple question:
> 
> is there a standard trick to get the url of the current page in a cgi


import os

script = os.environ["SCRIPT_FILENAME"]

Look up the print_environ() function in the cgi-module for your python
version to give you an overview of available information.

> script, or the url from which form data has been passed??  I want to

Hmm. You can try HTTP_REFERER but it depends on several things (browser,
server, cgi-implementation etc.) wether this reports something useful or
not. It is probably more reliably to check REMOTE_ADDR if that would provide
enough information.

Hth,

PterK

-- 
Peter van Kampen
pterk -- at -- datatailors.com


From CarolCarrot at sofsof.net  Mon Aug 16 15:02:02 2004
From: CarolCarrot at sofsof.net (Carol Carrot)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:02:02 -0600
Subject: mailman mailing list program
Message-ID: <PPidncd3ycQ1mbzcRVn-gg@comcast.com>

Greetings.

I've never seen a more complicated, verbose pile of hogwash than the
"deliverd by mailman" mailing list program.

Still I have to use it.

I'm trying to get a header to get attached tot he email. it gets stripped
from the email, whwere as the footer comes in as an attachment.

all this is buried under "no0-digest" options for some crazy reason.

How do I get the header to work?







From geoff at variosoft.com  Sun Aug  8 11:37:33 2004
From: geoff at variosoft.com (Geoff Caplan)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 16:37:33 +0100
Subject: Encryption between Python & PHP
In-Reply-To: <m2smaxlq8e.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
References: <mailman.1357.1091970037.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<m2smaxlq8e.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
Message-ID: <19227567650.20040808163733@variosoft.com>

Dan,

DS> I can't help much with your other questions, but I do know about this
DS> one.  By definition, blowfish is blowfish is blowfish.  Any (properly
DS> implemented) blowfish library will be compatible with another; if you
DS> encode something with one library, you will be able to decode it with
DS> the other.

Thanks for that. Looks like I should persist and track down the
problem. Perhaps something to do with the keys? When I try to
decrypt I am getting binary garbage out instead of an ascii string.

Any pointers about where to start looking would be welcome!
------------------ 
Geoff Caplan
Vario Software Ltd
(+44) 121-515 1154 



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 11:54:31 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 01:54:31 +1000
Subject: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was Decorator syntax)
In-Reply-To: <Q_IQc.2025$va2.167@fe1.texas.rr.com>
References: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01C8C636@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>
	<mailman.1258.1091771072.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Q_IQc.2025$va2.167@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040806085475a42be9@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 10:23:44 GMT, Paul McGuire 
> In http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-March/043835.html, in
> response to Phillip J. Eby's observation that most of the list-after-def
> proponents have the most concrete examples, GvR states, "Maybe the
> practitioners are so eager to have something usable that they aren't swayed
> as much by esthetics."  I'm not sure that any arguments are going to sway
> his view of what's esthetic, it sounds more like a subjective/gut reaction.

I've been trawling the archives collecting information for the PEP, and 
was unable to find a post from Guido that laid out in one place his 
problems with this syntax, so I asked him to post a piece to python-dev.

Please see:
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047112.html

Anthony


From reply2group at ndbbm.net  Tue Aug 31 00:48:24 2004
From: reply2group at ndbbm.net (Active8)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 00:48:24 -0400
Subject: Need help importing/installing reportlab module
References: <1ezngypknj8ju.dlg@news.individual.net>
	<4133EF58.4050709@holdenweb.com>
Message-ID: <1556ldg3h91o2.dlg@news.individual.net>

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:24:08 -0400, Steve Holden wrote:

> Active8 wrote:
> 
>> I did this once and can't remember how <blush> so I read the
>> reportlab user guid. It says to unzip the reportlab archive - this
>> is on w2k, BTW, with Python23 - to a directory and make a file
>> called reportlab.pth in the pythod dir. The only line in this file
>> is supposed to be the path to the reportlib dir.
>> 
> When you unpack the ReportLab archive (I downloaded ReportLab_1_19.zip) 
> it creates a reportlab-1_19 directory (in my case in the C:\Steve 
> directory), with a reportlab subdirectory that is the package you want 
> to import.
> 
> My Python is installed in C:\Python23, so I created a 
> C:\Python23\reportlab.pth file which contained the single line
> 
> 	C:\Steve\reportlab-1_19
> 
> Lo! "import reportlab" now works, and you should be good to go.
> 
>> Then I'm instructed to open the ... ok I'll close and reopen ... the
>> python cmd line interpreter and type
>> 
>> import reportlab
>> 
>> so I get
>> 
>> Import Error: no module named reportlab
>> 
>> not too surprizing since I can't find anything named reportlab in
>> the archive. I did basically the same thing to install PIL and that
>> worked. I did also download rl_win32_2_3 and move those .pyd files
>> to the pythod dll dir - I assume a pyd is a python dll - worked for
>> PIL.
>> 
> I'd be rather concerned that you can't find "reportlab" in the archive. 
> Basically all it contains is a "reportlab" package directory with the 
> code in it.
That's what I see, just no .py or other files named reportlab.
> 
>> If anyone can help me straighten this out, I'd really apppreciate
>> it.
>> 
>> TIA
> 
> Well if this doesn't fix it, please let me know.
> 
when I unzip, I get

.\ReportLab_1_19\reportlab-1_19

which contains manifest.txt and the reportlab dir where the actual
python code is. I've tried putting both subdirs under d:\ and
changed the reportlab.pth path accordingly. I've changed the .pth
file from DOS to unix and back because I read somewhere that the
line termination char musst be just so - and I'm not even sure I got
that right, but there's a newline in there. I even tried it without
a newline.

I've tried forward and backslashes. Also tried running
test_pdfgen_general.py from the command line and the python
interpreter - can't type "d:\report* because python doesn't like
colons - ..\report* - it doesn't like dots, either. But when I run
it from the windows command line, it says that in 

line 12 of test_pdfgen_general.py

from reportlab.test import unittest
Import Error: no module named reportlab.test

But I checked that test\ dir and unittest.py is there. If that's a
clue, I don't know what to make of it.

I recall installing another module - maybe PIL. When I tried that
from x import y thing, I got an error, but the next instruction was
to just type import PIL or whatever, and that didn't throw any
errors.

I'm pretty confused that it worked so well for you and isn't for me.
The instructions can't be simpler.

-- 
Best Regards,
Mike


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Sun Aug 15 07:46:50 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 11:46:50 GMT
Subject: Anyone use VPython?
References: <8f17f4bc.0408141932.46b7c405@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <69juh0dalfeu39fpvvvcb56ukovl0o1fsb@4ax.com>

On 14 Aug 2004 20:32:49 -0700, alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali) wrote:

>Anyone use VPython?

Yes.


From inigoserna at terra.es  Fri Aug  6 15:03:24 2004
From: inigoserna at terra.es (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?I=F1igo?= Serna)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 21:03:24 +0200
Subject: Decorator syntax (was Re: PEP 318 - PyFIT comments)
In-Reply-To: <4edc17eb.0408050632.58747082@posting.google.com>
References: <mailman.1162.1091660561.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4edc17eb.0408050632.58747082@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1091819004.32216.4.camel@inigo.katxi.org>

Hi,

after thinking all day I hope I've found the option I like more:

#decorator
def func (cls, *args, **kw):
    pass

... and it's compatible with old versions of python :)

seriously, I prefer next options, they are more readable:

1)
def func (cls, *args, **kw):
    .deco
    pass

2)
def func (cls, *args, **kw):
    __deco__
    pass

i.e., not before or inside function definition.



Best regards,
I?igo

El jue, 05-08-2004 a las 07:32 -0700, Michele Simionato escribi?:
> "Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy)" <tdelaney at avaya.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1162.1091660561.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> > Personally, I don't overly like the new syntax - I much preferred def
> > func (args) [decorators] - and I would have preferred not to "waste" @
> > for them, but I can definitely live with the decision. Some usable
> > decorator syntax is IMO more important than none.

> This also my opinion, more or less. It is just the "@" which is ugly.
> Why not to overload (once more) the colon and write:
>  
> :classmethod
> def func (cls, *args, **kw):
>      pass
> 
> ? Only half serious ...
> 
>       Michele Simionato

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From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Sun Aug 22 22:30:55 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 22:30:55 -0400
Subject: Has anyone implemented BASIC in Python?
In-Reply-To: <o6eii0h19pljd16shbfld7jdj7l2m7tc9m@4ax.com>
References: <2oo13eFcj548U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<o6eii0h19pljd16shbfld7jdj7l2m7tc9m@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <2ot30hFeek8nU1@uni-berlin.de>

Andrea Griffini wrote:
> I've no idea why you think that an unstructured language would
> be a good starting point.

There's no stack to deal with, and generally less possible expressions 
to worry about. You're probably right about doing an expression parser 
first, though; I will. Thanks for the advice.

> Anyway I found the idea of a BASIC interpreter in python intriguing,
> so I wrote one this weekend. I wrote it for my egoistic fun, so
> I'm not sure if it would be useful for you (or anyone else).

Whoa, that's your idea of a weekend project? I'm speechless.

I really appreciate the example, and I'll try my best to understand it. 
Did you use a parser generator or anything like that, or is it purely 
hand-coded?


From martin at v.loewis.de  Mon Aug  9 00:40:36 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 06:40:36 +0200
Subject: how many bytes in an int
In-Reply-To: <9ACRc.1523$bJ2.9739@news1.mts.net>
References: <9ACRc.1523$bJ2.9739@news1.mts.net>
Message-ID: <41170040$0$13043$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

Reid Nichol wrote:
>   I was wondering if I could control how many bytes are in an int and 
> the byte order.  In C/C++ I can use int32 but how do I do this in 
> python?  How can I control byte order?

You can't. Python uses as many bytes as are necessary to represent
the number (larger numbers - more bytes). Why do you want to control
the number of bytes?

Regards,
Martin


From kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no  Sat Aug 28 05:13:17 2004
From: kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Torgrim Homme)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:13:17 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87hdqok9i6.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1rfz68ely9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<876574k7du.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1r3c28ejis.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<5MWXc.228027$ht5.11749427@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
Message-ID: <1rhdqnd3rm.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>

[Roel Schroeven]:
>
>   Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote:
>   > how long do you have to stare before spotting the bug?
>   
>   Just the time needed to read the code.
>   
>   >     db.update_name(person)
>   >     if is_student(person):
>   >         db.update_courses(person)
>   >         db.commit()
>   > only students have their names updated.  I wonder why.
>   
>   No offense, but I wonder why you have a problem with this
>   code. IMO the indentation makes perfectly clear what's happening.

I don't think it is appropriate that I dump thousands of lines of code
here to illustrate the problem :-)

when I provide four lines of code and tell you there's a bug, of
course you can spot it immediately.  when it's part of a large system,
it's a bit harder.  also consider that the db.commit() originally was
correctly placed by the programmer, and the wrong indentation was
introduced later by an editing glitch.
-- 
Kjetil T.


From bbands at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 10 11:40:47 2004
From: bbands at yahoo.com (BBands)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 08:40:47 -0700
Subject: How do I get IDLE on Suse Linux 9.x?
References: <0G1Sc.149588$fv.89578@fe2.columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <79780d4f.0408100740.54c7743d@posting.google.com>

>
> Sorry to ask such a basic question.
> 
> Michael

IDLE is a separate package on SuSE 9.1. Fire up YaST, click on
'install and remove software,' search for idle, check it, click
accept... and away you go.

     --jab


From jepler at unpythonic.net  Sun Aug 22 09:26:04 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 08:26:04 -0500
Subject: 100 % portable ?
In-Reply-To: <rp_Vc.221989$xO.10939509@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
References: <rp_Vc.221989$xO.10939509@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
Message-ID: <20040822132603.GA2348@unpythonic.net>

How can you be sure?  I recommend you do it by writing a test-suite for
your software and running it on all the platforms you wish to target.

On the other hand, Python has had "pretty good" portability for me in
the past, at least where Windows, Linux, and Unix are concerned.

Jeff
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From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  6 16:10:37 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 16:10:37 -0400
Subject: @decorators
In-Reply-To: <10h73e5kh1et536@news.supernews.com>
References: <d22692a3.0408052234.7230fd74@posting.google.com>
	<roy-B53A92.08194306082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<10h73e5kh1et536@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <4113e5be@nntp.zianet.com>

John Roth wrote:
> All of the existing packages (at least to my knowledge) use
> descriptors to wrap the necessary functions. They could be
> very easily reimplemented in terms of the decorator syntax.
> However, the decorator syntax brings no new functionality
> to the table; it's simply syntactic sugar for already existing
> functionality.

Exactly. What's more, I don't think that decorators are really the ideal 
way to express DBC, either. For one thing, pre and post conditions often 
want access to at least the argument list, and often to the internal 
variables of the definition. I don't think that this will be possible 
with the decorators as proposed, since they are outside the scope of the 
function.

> It may, of course, improve readability, which is always
> desirable.

I think readability would be improved more by adding support in the form 
of special control blocks (more like if and while than def or class):

class C:
   def f( self, a, b):
     pre:
       assert type(a) == types.int
       assert type(b) == types.int
       assert a < b
     post:
       assert (rc is None) or (type( rc) == types.list)
     if (a % b) > (a / b):
       return None
     return (a % b) * (a / b)

Bringing this back on topic, the decorator syntax could theoretically be 
extended to support this:

class C:
   def f( self, a, b):
     @pre:
       ...
     @post:
       ...
     if ...

That is, decorators optionally could accept a block of code along with 
their explicit arguments. What they do with that block is up to them. Of 
course, I'm not familiar enough with the internals to know how feasible 
this would be...

> "Roy Smith" <roy at panix.com> wrote...
>>Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, I'm rather distressed at the tone
>>of some of the postings I've seen here over the past couple of days.
>>Some of the sentiments I've seen expressed are downright rude,
>>combative, and accusatory.  These sorts of things are way out of line.

Agreed. I think we're all a bit on edge at seeing something we think 
might still be flawed about to be canonized, but bickering won't help 
anything.

Don't forget: if we make this too painful for the BDFL, he might just 
drop the whole idea and tell us to live with what we've got. :)

   -- Mark


From unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom  Sat Aug  7 04:22:40 2004
From: unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom (Michel Claveau - abstraction méta-galactique non triviale en fuite perpétuelle.)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 10:22:40 +0200
Subject: unicode to ascii converting
References: <mailman.1296.1091813051.5135.python-list@python.org><1091815856.527127@news.commspeed.net><mailman.1301.1091816463.5135.python-list@python.org><s9z8ycs9l07.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>
	<mailman.1309.1091820963.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cf223m$7ha$1@news-reader4.wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <cf23jb$b8k$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>

Sorry !

The COMPLETE script is :

        # -*- coding: cp1252 -*-
        aa = u"?"
        aa.encode("ascii","ignore")








From JBrouwersAtProphICyDotCom at no.spam.net  Fri Aug  6 02:11:33 2004
From: JBrouwersAtProphICyDotCom at no.spam.net (Jean Brouwers)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 06:11:33 GMT
Subject: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was Decorator syntax)
References: <6LWdnZCpvI7Ico_cRVn-hw@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <050820042311070175%JBrouwersAtProphICyDotCom@no.spam.net>


The "list-after-def" is my preference as well, more than +1.  It
matches existing Python syntax by using a list (or tuple?) notation,
the list of keywords can span one or multiple lines and it can easily
be extended with additional keywords as the need arises in the future.

Apart from being non-Pythonic, my objection against the @ proposal is
that it can easily be confused with comments like the (Java) doc-like
notations.

I am not qualfied to judge backward possible compatibility issues.

/Jean Brouwers
 


In article <6LWdnZCpvI7Ico_cRVn-hw at giganews.com>, Istvan Albert
<ialbert at mailblocks.com> wrote:

> Paul McGuire wrote:
> 
>  > Please reconsider the "def f() [classmethod]:" construct.  Instead of
>  > invoking a special punctuation character, it uses context and placement,
>  > with familiar old []'s, to infuse the declaration of a function with
>  > special
>  > characteristics.  If this causes def lines to run longer than one line,
>  > perhaps the same rule that allows an unmatched "(" to carry over multiple
>  > lines without requiring "\" continuation markers could be used for
>  > unmatched
>  > "["s, as in:
>  >
>  > def f() [ staticmethod,
>  >     synchronized,
>  >     alphabetized,
>  >     supersized,
>  >     returns('d') ]:
> 
> Well said!
> 
> Reading the posts here and in the python-dev I've counted
> the following votes for it (I'm sure that there were a lot
> more but it is awfully hard to keep up with the posts
> on the topic).
> 
> Voting for the "list-after-def" syntax as shown above:
> 
> Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com>
> AdSR <artur_spruce at yahoo.com>
> Paul McGuire <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com>m
> Phillip J. Eby pje at telecommunity.com
> C. Barnes <connellybarnes at yahoo.com>
> Aahz aahz at pythoncraft.com
> Skip Montanaro skip at pobox.com
> Bill Janssen janssen at parc.com
> Istvan Albert ialbert at mailblocks.com
> 
> I have the feeling that this always was and still is
> the favorite.
> 
> Ladies and Gents, start your engines and rally around
> this syntax (if you prefer it of course) so that there
> is evidence that it should be taken as a serious candidate.
> 
> Istvan.
>


From miki.tebeka at zoran.com  Sun Aug 15 05:08:41 2004
From: miki.tebeka at zoran.com (Miki Tebeka)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 11:08:41 +0200
Subject: Pyhton Interpreter Startup time
In-Reply-To: <411B3EE1.9080002@cenix-bioscience.com>
References: <411B3EE1.9080002@cenix-bioscience.com>
Message-ID: <20040815090840.GE2184@zoran.com>

Hello Neil,

>          I'm looking at a small app which would need a very quick 
> startup time for the Python interpreter.  It doesn't do much (copying 
> and caching of files, no GUI) but I need the Python interpreter to start 
> up very quickly (<1 second on a Windows box).  Is there a way to have a 
> 'stripped' down Python interpreter which can start up very quickly on a 
> windows box.  Once thing I was thinking of was to use PyExe to make a 
> quick startup (does it compile down to C code, therefore not using the 
> Python interpreter at runtime?).  Is this a possible solution?
> 
>    I observe that the second time I start python it starts up quicker 
> but I'm assuming that this is dependent on the environment and can't be 
> relied upon (or something like that).
My guess it's that Windows first load of python23.dll takes time. The
second time it's already in memory and Python loads faster.

Windows have a list of "KnownDLLs" that it pre loads at startup time and
they stay in memory all the time. To see if this is the problem try adding the
python23.dll to:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session
Manager\KnownDLLs

(The above is *one* line with space between "Session" and "Manager")

HTH.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Miki Tebeka <miki.tebeka at zoran.com>
http://tebeka.spymac.net
The only difference between children and adults is the price of the toys


From cygnus at cprogrammer.org  Thu Aug 26 15:05:38 2004
From: cygnus at cprogrammer.org (Jonathan Daugherty)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:05:38 -0700
Subject: Mysql in Python?
In-Reply-To: <cglb3o$fsk@odak26.prod.google.com>
References: <cglb3o$fsk@odak26.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <20040826190538.GA11042@vulcan.cprogrammer.org>

# Also, PostgreSQL seems to be better supported than MySQL, although
# good luck finding a web host with PostgreSQL *and* mod_python!

Hey,

Command Prompt provides web hosting and we only support PostgreSQL.
We'd be glad to provide mod_python.

http://www.commandprompt.com

-- 
  Jonathan Daugherty
  http://www.cprogrammer.org


From prillamana at cox.net  Wed Aug  4 16:39:33 2004
From: prillamana at cox.net (Aaron Prillaman)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 15:39:33 -0500
Subject: error in python23.DLL
Message-ID: <8QbQc.12336$Oz2.11187@okepread06>

I've already posted on comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.win32 w/no replies, 
so i guess this is my next stop.

I'm running a win32 c++ program from a shortcut.  When I run the program 
  from the build directory, it runs just fine, but when i run from the 
shortcut it crashes.  The libraries used by the program are direct draw 
and python23.  both of which are in the system32 folder.  the actual 
error that occurs is a direct draw error DDERR_INVALIDRECT(which is 
passed the same rect as parameter when the program works and when it 
doesn't).  I'm linking the program w/the multithreaded DLL runtime 
library (/MD.. i also used this to compile the python DLL).  I think the 
actual bug is somewhere in the python23.DLL, because when i build the 
project without it, everything runs fine.  One more thing, and I've 
saved the best for last: When i compile the program w/debug symbols, the 
error doesn't occur.  So far i've been trying to figure out whats 
overwriting my ddsurface(the only reason I can think of that 
DDERR_INVALIDRECT is getting thrown).  If anyone has any ideas on what 
might cause this, i would much appreciate it.

thanks in advance


From mrbrown200425 at yahoo.com  Thu Aug  5 17:24:57 2004
From: mrbrown200425 at yahoo.com (Rob B)
Date: 5 Aug 2004 14:24:57 -0700
Subject: import random error
Message-ID: <7903bb89.0408051324.63ee1535@posting.google.com>

Hello,

I am just starting to learn Python and was writing a simple script on
my machine (Mac OS X 10.3.4), but I can't seem to import the random
module:

#!/usr/bin/env python

import random

Results in:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "./math.py", line 3, in ?
    import random
  File "/sw/lib/python2.3/random.py", line 42, in ?
    from math import log as _log, exp as _exp, pi as _pi, e as _e
ImportError: cannot import name log

I have such a feeling that this is either a) because I don't know what
I'm doing or b) the python install is somehow strange. What is strange
is that in interactive mode, import random works fine.

Thanks in advance,

Rob


From brian_zimmerman at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  3 05:00:04 2004
From: brian_zimmerman at yahoo.com (Brian Zimmerman)
Date: 3 Aug 2004 02:00:04 -0700
Subject: New to Python/Programming
References: <10gsujk1og2gkbf@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <de505538.0408030100.6a3b157e@posting.google.com>

I'm new to all this too. I recommend Michael Dawson's "Python
Programming For The Absolute Beginner" (Premier Press, 452 pages).

It's really fun as it walks you through Python basics by having you
make little games. By the time you are done with the book you will
have made an Asteroids like game with sounds, music, and animation. I
think it was written with kids in mind, not that it's simple, just
somehow really clear.

THE BAD: The book's CD has only MS Windows versions of the software
used. Most of the book's examples are cross platform (if you do your
own downloads and installs), except for things that use Livewires. The
author says that he made changes to the standard Livewires library, so
you might get frustrated towards the end if you use Linux or Mac. I
hope that gets fixed because other than that, I think this is just
about the perfect intro book for younger programmers.

Not to knock Alan Gauld's "Learn to Program Using Python"
(Addison-Wesley, 270 pages). It's also a great beginner's book. I
enjoyed reading that too.

Alan's book gets straight to the point, and feels more "Intro to
Computer Science" minded. It explains some theory and terminology,
then shows how that works in Python, and a bit about other languages.
Dawson's book is more like we're gonna make a game, here's what we do
to build it.


From rob at nospam.net  Tue Aug 17 15:17:17 2004
From: rob at nospam.net (Robert Ferber)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:17:17 +0200
Subject: Databases: Getting values by column name
References: <o6f9v1-6si.ln1@pilz.hasos.com>
	<mailman.1802.1092753679.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <u62av1-o3k.ln1@pilz.hasos.com>

Skip Montanaro wrote:

> Yes, for MySQLdb import the MySQLdb.cursors module then set the
> cursorclass arg when you create a connection, like so:
> 
>     import MySQLdb
>     import MySQLdb.cursors
>     ...
>     conn = MySQLdb.Connection(host=...,
>                               user=...,
>                               passwd=...,
>                               db=...,
>                               cursorclass=MySQLdb.cursors.DictCursorNW,
>                               ...)

You mean MySQLdb.connect()?

> I think the reason this sort of behavior isn't spelled out in PEP 249 is
> because it varies too much from one database to another.  Psycopg (a
> PostgreSQL adaptor) does it differently.  Instead of specifying the cursor
> type when the connection is created, you instantiate a different cursor
> class:
> 
>     conn = psycopg.connect("...")

NameError: name 'psycopg' is not defined

Also wouldn't that overwrite the above conn variable?

>     ...
>     cursor = conn.dictcursor()

 
AttributeError: Connection instance has no attribute 'dictcursor' 

(When I use the conn from MySQLdb.connect)

> I imagine there are some databases that either don't support name-based
> retrieval very well (or at all), or make it difficult to get at.  You
> might get a more solid response on the reasons for this omission from PEP
> 249 from the db-sig folks:
> 
>     http://www.python.org/sigs/db-sig/

Isn't there any documentation with a simple example out there?

I already know the stuff on that page, it's really slowing you down :-(

Robert




From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 24 10:19:41 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:19:41 -0400
Subject: __name__ becoming read-write?
In-Reply-To: <ultki0h81hl8fmgd452tqsfqihv6hpvege@4ax.com>
References: <uutji0h87t24cb1nej03gdggs0hg6eno3l@4ax.com>	<mailman.2205.1093275632.5135.python-list@python.org>	<c94ki0dgh70ud7e1ok8sshlvg4pe96s4h8@4ax.com>	<mailman.2211.1093279236.5135.python-list@python.org>	<3b8ki0tlphodtt8ge8an274qp78ihp1i3n@4ax.com>	<mailman.2223.1093282711.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ultki0h81hl8fmgd452tqsfqihv6hpvege@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <cgfipt$8ft$1@sea.gmane.org>

Arthur wrote:
> 
>>"So wait, this stuff that _looks_ like code in a
>>function, isn't actually? what the hell?" The new syntax[1] for
>>decorators is at least very obvious that something _new_ is going on.
> 
> 
> I am thinking (and I think Paul is thinking) that we can say the same
> thing, succintly, in a manner that has precedence in the language
> 

Absolutely.  That's a good way to think about it.





From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 04:25:10 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:25:10 +0200
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
	<dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
	<aN5Xc.205341$M95.157379@pd7tw1no>
Message-ID: <1gj4fb5.607xsc51izh8N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Martin DeMello <martindemello at yahoo.com> wrote:
   ...
> My main point is that returning None is pretty useless - it 'wastes' the
> return value, and doesn't allow method chaining. Returning self allows
> you to either use or discard the return value depending on whether
> you're interested in it, whereas using None doesn't give you any choice.

>>> import this
The Zen of Python, by Tim Peters
   [snipped]
There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.


Not leaving stylistic choice (which would lead to more than one obvious
way to do it) is quite consonant with the Zen of Python.  Of course one
can't always reach what's preferable, but "your main point" which is
presumably meant as a criticism of this design choice comes across as
praise: the design choice follows the overall design's philosophy.

Guido doesn't like method chaining, so he made a design choice that did
not allow method chaining, and did not give several equally obvious ways
to perform some typical, important tasks.  This consistency between
detailed design decisions and overall philosophy is exactly that Quality
Without a Name which makes Python so great.


Alex


From b.niemann at betternet.de  Thu Aug 19 11:51:08 2004
From: b.niemann at betternet.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:51:08 +0200
Subject: HTMLParser question
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.19.15.27.23.527235@presidency.com>
References: <pan.2004.08.19.15.27.23.527235@presidency.com>
Message-ID: <cg2i3l$i0k$1@online.de>

Rajarshi Guha wrote:
> Hi,
>   I have some HTML that looks essentially consists of a series of <div>'s
> and each <div> having one of two classes (tnt-question or tnt-answer).
> I'm using HTMLParser to handle the tags as:
> 
> class MyHTMLParser(HTMLParser.HTMLParser):
> 
>     def handle_starttag(self, tag, attrs):
>         if len(attrs) == 1:
>             cls,whichcls = attrs[0]
>             if whichcls == 'tnt-question':
>                 print self.get_starttag_text(), self.getpos()
>     def handle_endtag(self, tag):
>         pass
>     def handle_data(self, data):
>         print data
> 
> if __name__ == '__main__':
> 
>     htmldata = string.join(open('tt.html','r').readlines())
>     parser = MyHTMLParser()
>     parser.feed( htmldata )
> 
> However what I would like is that when the parser reaches some HTML like
> this:
> 
>         <div class="tnt-question">
>             How do I add a user to a MySQL system?
>         </div>
> 
> I should get back the data between the open and close tags. However the
> above code prints the text contained between all tags, not just the <div>
> tags with the class='tnt-question'.
> 
> Is there a way to call handle_data() when a specific tag is being handled?
> Placing a call to handle_data() in handle_starttag seems to be the way -
> but I';m not sure how to actually do it - what data should I pass to the
> call?
Set a flag, when you the parser calls handle_starttag() and the tag 
matches your criteria, unset it, when the corresponding endtag is found 
(you'll probably have to count the nesting depth, so for
<div class="printme">Yo <div>man</div>!</div>
the flag is unset on the second </div>). Then in handle_data() only 
print it, when the flag is set.


From __peter__ at web.de  Mon Aug 30 16:45:49 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 22:45:49 +0200
Subject: xml.dom.minidom - documentElement vs. childNodes
References: <mailman.2621.1093888223.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ch03lt$soa$01$1@news.t-online.com>

Skip Montanaro wrote:

> I'm getting somewhat painfully acquainted with xml.dom.minidom.  What is
> the relationship between its documentElement attribute and its childNodes
> list?
> I thought XML documents consisted of a single, possibly compound, node. 
> Why is a list of childNodes needed?

>>> import xml.dom.minidom as md
>>> dom = md.parseString("""<?xml version="1.0" ?><!--comment--><root/>""")
>>> dom.childNodes
[<DOM Comment node "comment">, <DOM Element: root at 0x4038c1ac>]
>>>

Seems like comments are preserved in childNodes, too.

Peter



From megalomaan at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 26 14:55:58 2004
From: megalomaan at hotmail.com (m0226065)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:55:58 +0200
Subject: Looking for a mySQL module
Message-ID: <1093546553.242839@seven.kulnet.kuleuven.ac.be>

Hello

I'm looking for a mySQL module so I can address my miniserver
(http://miniserver.sourceforge.net). I looked on google, but I'm not sure
I'm getting what I want

thx

-- 
____________________________________________________
Johan Potums
Vaartstraat 67
3000 Leuven




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.737 / Virus Database: 491 - Release Date: 11/08/2004




From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Sun Aug 15 12:06:25 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 12:06:25 -0400
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1687.1092584144.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <20040814153534.8AC171E4007@bag.python.org>	<D65D4928-EEBF-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>
	<mailman.1687.1092584144.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <frydnbvSiJeXF4LcRVn-oA@giganews.com>

Paul Morrow wrote:


> That reminds me of how I once thought about using indentation as a means 
> of denoting code blocks.  How idiotic I thought that was.  Now I realize 
> the elegance, beauty, 'genius' in that.

I disagree. In C (Perl, Java etc) we would do three things,
write braces, indent and put the semi-colon. In python we replaced
these three, with a single (the most obvious) one the indentation.

> Why don't we all just acknowledge that we are doing this?  Why don't we 
> all just admit that a well written instance method uses 'self' as its 
> first argument.  And well written static or class methods (as well as 

If so then, the logically equivalent solution would be to pass self
as an implicit parameter, say a named parameter self with a default
reference to itself. I'm not suggesting this behavior, I only point out
what I think follows from the first example. The end goal is to
simplify the behavior not overload it and thus add
further meaning to it.

I do agree with Chas Emerick in that encoding special behavior in
variable names is a fragile solution.

Istvan.



From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu  Tue Aug 24 12:27:05 2004
From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Daniel Yoo)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 16:27:05 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: scanf-1.0 for Python
Message-ID: <mailman.2294.1093372623.5135.python-announce-list@python.org>

Hi everyone,


I've implemented a scanf-like module in pure Python:

    http://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~dyoo/python/scanf/



If you've ever had the itch to do something like:

###
import scanf

(cmd, errors, warnings) = (
    scanf.sscanf("/usr/sbin/sendmail - 0 errors, 4 warnings",
                 "%s - %d errors, %d warnings"))
###



I hope this helps!


From iketo2 at netscape.net  Fri Aug 27 21:50:33 2004
From: iketo2 at netscape.net (Isaac To)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 09:50:33 +0800
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<87hdqok9i6.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1rfz68ely9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<876574k7du.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<1r3c28ejis.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<zILXc.54863$xi6.26091@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<1rllg0cb3m.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <874qmovxna.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>

>>>>> "Kjetil" == Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no> writes:

    Kjetil> I find this attitude a little defensive.  Python has much
    Kjetil> more to offer than just strict indentation.  although it's
    Kjetil> probably the feature you notice first, it's not enough to
    Kjetil> make Python a superior language.

For me, it is *the* feature that make it stands out from the scripting
crowd.  There are other things nice in Python, but as long as there is
one big enough killing feature, people will use the language enough to
add others.

    Kjetil> after all, code in _any_ language written by a
    Kjetil> professional will have strict indentation.  so it's just
    Kjetil> syntax.

No.  In all other languages, people deal with *two* ways to find which
statement is associated with an if/while/for/whatever statement and
which is not: by looking at the indentation, and by looking at the
braces.  They normally look at the indentation, since it is the
quicker way.  But when they find something wrong, they look at the
defining braces, sometimes deeply hidden in long expressions and
statements combined into one line.  In Python, we have *one and only
one* way to find which statement is associated with an
if/while/for/whatever statement, and this is the quicker way that
people are used to.  This single feature reduces the amount of bugs
that you would introduce when editing and modifying code.  More
importantly, this single feature allows you to be much less stressed
when editing code.

Regards,
Isaac.


From skip at pobox.com  Wed Aug  4 14:06:16 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 13:06:16 -0500
Subject: guide to introspecting python?
In-Reply-To: <UVUPc.6122$AY5.373@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
References: <UVUPc.6122$AY5.373@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <16657.9624.146998.907297@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Mark> def rdir(item, v=""):
    Mark>     print "%s%s"%(v,item)
    Mark>     for i in dir(item):
    Mark>         rdir(i, v+"    ")

    Mark> import os
    Mark> rdir(os)

Problem is, dir() is already recursive:

    >>> class A:
    ...   def a(self): pass
    ... 
    >>> class B:
    ...   def b(self): pass
    ... 
    >>> class C(A,B): pass
    ... 
    >>> c = C()
    >>> dir(c)
    ['__doc__', '__module__', 'a', 'b']
    >>> dir(C)
    ['__doc__', '__module__', 'a', 'b']

As others have suggested, the inspect module is probably a good place to
start.

Skip


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Wed Aug  4 19:15:34 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay Brar)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 09:15:34 +1000
Subject: bsddb port
Message-ID: <41116E16.7000100@mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

does anyone know of a bsddb port to pocket pc 2002.

thanks

-- 
Ajay Brar
CS Honours 2004
Smart Internet Technology Research Group

http://www.it.usyd.edu.au/~abrar1



From apavluck at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 15:36:48 2004
From: apavluck at gmail.com (Alex  Pavluck)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 12:36:48 -0700
Subject: I know SAS (sort of)...now, PYTHON
Message-ID: <cg5jsg$ka2@odak26.prod.google.com>

Hello.  I use SAS on a daily basis and it has peaked my interest in
learning other programming languages.  Are there any good
websites/online books that can help someone go from zero knowledge of
python and programming to beginner level through exercises?
Thanks! Alex



From apardon at forel.vub.ac.be  Mon Aug 16 05:28:11 2004
From: apardon at forel.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 09:28:11 GMT
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<RGwTc.37687$js3.13758840@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<LIqdndnJz9N_pr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <slrnci0vhb.k3.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>

Op 2004-08-16, Peter Hansen schreef <peter at engcorp.com>:
> Keith P. Boruff wrote:
>
>> beliavsky at aol.com wrote:
>> 
>>> One of the most commmon reasons programmers cite for not trying Python
>>> is that indentation determines the program flow -- they think its
>>> weird. I think programmers who actually try Python adapt quickly and
>>> do not find the indentation rules to be a problem.
>> 
>> Honestly, I'm still not too crazy about the indentation requirements of 
>> the language myself, coming from a background of using all free form 
>> languages.
>
> Did you really not indent your code in those languages consisntly
> anyway?

I can't answer for keith, but my answer is that it depends on
what you consider consistent.

My indentation was consistent with the structure of the algorithm.
That is not necesarrily the same as the structure you implemeted
that algorithm in.

I think that I should be the final judge of what is the most
appropiate way to use indentation, not the compilor/interpreter,
even if it agrees with me.

-- 
Antoon Pardon


From xavier.combelle at free.fr  Sun Aug  8 00:18:28 2004
From: xavier.combelle at free.fr (Xavier Combelle)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 06:18:28 +0200
Subject: decorators vs GIL
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1345.1091924284.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>
	<mailman.1345.1091924284.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4115a8aa$0$19945$626a14ce@news.free.fr>


>>I have no problems with Python's performance in my
>>applications.  I avoid threads because they're error-prone,
>>    
>>
>
>Isn't that like saying, I avoid programming in general because it's
>error-prone?  I don't follow.
>  
>
 I don't agree with the comparison. Programming may be error prone, but 
can you suggest something
to replace it? In the other side, there is different way to avoid 
threads: make a heavy process, doing a
single event loop. You should have a really special and hard work to use 
them routinely.



From charleshixsn at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 24 02:27:23 2004
From: charleshixsn at earthlink.net (Charles Hixson)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 23:27:23 -0700
Subject: Time-date as an integer
Message-ID: <412ADFCB.5070902@earthlink.net>

This is a concept, not a finished program, and an extract from a class 
at that...so forgive any illegalities, but:
import    datetime;
  def    calcNodeId(self):
    t    =    datetime.utcnow()
    val    =    t.year *    133920000000    +          #    12 months
                    t.month    *    11160000000    +    #    31 days
                    t.hour    *    3600000000    +         #    60 minutes
                    t.minute    *    60000000    +         #    60 seconds
                    t.second    *    1000000    +    t.microsecond
    if    val <=    self._dTime:
      val    =    self._dTime + 1
    self._dTime    =    val
    return    val

This is the best that I've been able to come up with in getting a 
date-time as an integer.  It feels like one of the time or date 
libraries should have a better solution, but if so, I haven't found it.  
Can anyone suggest a better approach?


From indigo at bitglue.com  Wed Aug 25 18:40:23 2004
From: indigo at bitglue.com (Phil Frost)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 18:40:23 -0400
Subject: Just a quick one
In-Reply-To: <cgi5vc$m52$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>
References: <cgi2qq$rvp$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <cgi3ev$g6k$1@online.de>
	<cgi5vc$m52$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20040825224023.GA1258@unununium.org>

A tuple (actually, any iterable) can be converted to a list by using
list(), like so:

list( (1, 2, 3) )  ==>  [1, 2, 3]

In fact, most types can be converted like so, str(), list(), dict(),
tuple(). You can always do "help(str)" in Python for more verbose
information.

On Wed, Aug 25, 2004 at 03:00:11PM +0100, M. Clift wrote:
> Hi Benjamin,
> 
> Sorry, another question. How do I remove the brackets form the list?
> Name_List.remove('(') doesn't work.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> M


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 21:51:18 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:51:18 +1000
Subject: Decorator keyword
In-Reply-To: <d11dcfba.0408051617.7b4dfcc5@posting.google.com>
References: <d11dcfba.0408051617.7b4dfcc5@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040805185169e9eae7@mail.gmail.com>

On 5 Aug 2004 17:17:39 -0700, Steven Bethard <steven.bethard at gmail.com> wrote:
> I was just going to let this go because I thought it had been shut
> down, but as it seems to have been reopened, I'd love to see something
> like:
> 
> with classmethod
> with returns(int)
> def func(*args, **kwds):
>     return 1

"with" is a non-starter - there's already other plans to use with for other
things, at some distant point. Also, if we're to have a new keyword, it
should be _much_ more obvious than 'with'.


From luismg at gmx.net  Sun Aug 22 10:42:41 2004
From: luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 07:42:41 -0700
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<7xk6vsgh3i.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <278de0e.0408220642.3c2274a0@posting.google.com>

> They already are (Lisp, etc.)

That's a surprise! I didn't know about Lisp, so I did a quick search
in Google and I found this quote from CMUCL website:

"a sophisticated native-code compiler which is capable of powerful
type inferences, and generates code competitive in speed with C
compilers."

Has anyone tried to learn from this experience? Could this technology
be used with Python?

Regarding you Paul, I also found this:

"There's another guy I'd also like to invite, a Lisp expert, if that's
ok with you.  He's been interested in writing a Python compiler for a
while.  I'll ask him if he wants to join, but he might not."

What happened?


From tismer at stackless.com  Mon Aug  9 08:10:16 2004
From: tismer at stackless.com (Christian Tismer)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:10:16 +0200
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
In-Reply-To: <cf7olc$q6q$1@namru.matavnet.hu>
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu><cf3b56$gt6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>	<du7smayidxy.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>	<Xns953F7763A998cpl19ghumspamgourmet@195.20.224.116>	<cf4ub3$msb$1@namru.matavnet.hu><Xns953F8910730B8cpl19ghumspamgourmet@195.20.224.116>	<mailman.1381.1092046190.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cf7olc$q6q$1@namru.matavnet.hu>
Message-ID: <411769A8.40200@stackless.com>

Mikl?s wrote:

...

>>This is the basic idea what a decorator does:
>>Make modifiers like classmethod into a prefix
>>of a function.
> 
> 
> Great, so it's still about code modification.

No, this is, with respect, nonsense.

> With Python decorators, a method/function can be modified virtually in any
> way, outside its declaration.

No. You cannot do anything that could not be done
without decorators, before (at least today).

> Sure you could override things before, too, but now this is a request for
> code abuse.

My explanation was *not* meant as a request for list abuse.

-- 
Christian Tismer             :^)   <mailto:tismer at stackless.com>
Mission Impossible 5oftware  :     Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a     :    *Starship* http://starship.python.net/
14109 Berlin                 :     PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/
work +49 30 89 09 53 34  home +49 30 802 86 56  mobile +49 173 24 18 776
PGP 0x57F3BF04       9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619  305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04
      whom do you want to sponsor today?   http://www.stackless.com/



From grepninja at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 25 16:07:01 2004
From: grepninja at yahoo.com (John Tobler)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 13:07:01 -0700
Subject: Has anyone implemented BASIC in Python?
References: <2oo13eFcj548U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<o6eii0h19pljd16shbfld7jdj7l2m7tc9m@4ax.com>
	<2ot30hFeek8nU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<9h0ji0lvc0be65nuvcugaa3vsq5mcl3ck8@4ax.com>
	<2otkvkFe7p8oU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <e6476307.0408251207.33893738@posting.google.com>

Leif K-Brooks <eurleif at ecritters.biz> wrote in message news:<2otkvkFe7p8oU1 at uni-berlin.de>...
> Is there a (virtual) book you would recommend reading to learn about 
> writing them? A course isn't really possibly for me, so I'm hoping that 
> isn't the only option.

You do not need to spend a penny for books or information about
compiler writing.  Let's go fishing!

Start with the Open Directory Project:

http://dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Compilers/


... and Google's equivalent of it (which incorporates the ODP but may
modify or supplement its results):

http://directory.google.com/Top/Computers/Programming/Compilers/


>From those two links, alone, you should be able to find everything
from excellent beginner tutorials to advanced theoretical references.


Now, let's try a simple Google search for "compiler writing":

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&q=compiler+writing


... and "compiler theory"

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&q=compiler+theory


... and "tutorial+compiler"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=tutorial+compiler&btnG=Search


Then, let's narrow our scope to tiny things:

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&q=tiny+compiler


That should give you some reasonably-sized learning projects to
emulate.

Have fun!

John Tobler
CSharpener's Weblog:
  http://weblogs.asp.net/jtobler/


From pf_moore at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Aug 23 15:18:08 2004
From: pf_moore at yahoo.co.uk (Paul Moore)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:18:08 +0100
Subject: Standard graph API?
References: <mailman.2228.1093282813.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <eklxfytr.fsf@yahoo.co.uk>

"Robert Brewer" <fumanchu at amor.org> writes:

>> Is there any interest in a (hypothetical) standard graph API (with
>> 'graph' meaning a network, consisting of nodes and edges)?
>
> 1) Yes!
> 2) Only if it's in C. I don't mind (re)writing pure Python graph
> containers, it's the speed of a pure Python graph that's the bigger
> issue to me (mostly object inspection and/or
> decorate-insert-retrieve-undecorate cycles). If it started in a
> pure-Python package, then went into the stdlib, and then got a C
> implementation (like sets.py did), that would be fine.
> 3) It would have to accept arbitrary objects. No "make your class a
> subclass of GraphNode" garbage. If someone wanted to make a subclass of
> Graph called StringGraph, which was optimized for strings, or IntGraph
> optimized for ints, that would be fine. But the base class (I assume a
> class implementation?) should handle instances of Object.
>
> I'm sure there are many more details, but those are the big ones IMO.

1) Yes, from me as well. I've not used graphs in Python much, but
   mainly because I found that I got sidetracked from my original
   project into implementing graph algorithms, and never completed the
   original job :-)

2) I don't see a need for C at the start. prototype in Python, and
   migrate to C if the speed is needed. Like the set datatype did. But
   aim for fast Python, so that a C implementation can be avoided if
   it's unnecessary.

3) Definitely arbitrary objects. I'm not sure about a Graph class,
   even - given that the dictionary of adjacency lists implementation
   is so easy to build, it may be worth writing algorithms that just
   depend on a graph "protocol". Something like: for n in g iterates
   through all nodes in g, for m in g[n] iterates through all nodes
   adjacent to n, and for cases where edge weights are needed, g[n][m]
   is the weight of edge n->m. You can get a long way on just those
   primitives. If we had adaptation in Python (PEP 246) I'd suggest an
   IGraph protocol, plus adapters for common implementation methods.

In my personal graph library, I found that one of the nastiest issues
was writing suitably general DFS/BFS algorithms which had "hooks" at
relevant points (node visited in preorder, inorder, and postorder, for
example) without swamping the runtime of the algorithm with calls to
possibly dummy hook functions. I'm not sure that a C implementation
would help here, but good design and fine tuning certainly would.

(If anyone wants to see my current code, I'd be happy to share it).

Paul.
-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; In
practice, there is. -- Chuck Reid


From tdelaney at avaya.com  Tue Aug 24 18:32:23 2004
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy))
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:32:23 +1000
Subject: PEP318: radical notion
Message-ID: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01DCF4DB@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

Arien Malec wrote:

> Is there a valid use case that supports arbitrary magical non-metadata
> transformations of standalone functions?

PyObjC.

Tim Delaney


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 03:01:15 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:01:15 +1000
Subject: AntiDecorator metaclass
In-Reply-To: <cfkvpf$iue$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <mailman.1640.1092453732.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<411dfe05$0$6142$626a14ce@news.free.fr> <cfkvpf$iue$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408160001642a8070@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:15:43 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> No I don't want to say that.  I want to say that decorators should keep
> their nose out of the classmethod/staticmethod business. 

So what's the point of this, then? You say it's an "anti-decorator" metaclass.
It's not. It's simply a way to automagically invoke a couple of standard 
decorators from a metaclass, based on people following a convention.

It does little or nothing to address many of the other requirements for
decorators, is brittle (see my previous post on the subject) and relies on
something that is merely a convention, and deliberately so.

> And it makes the problem space that
> decorators address smaller (as it becomes everything you want decorators
> to do minus the classmethod/staticmethod stuff), which might give rise
> to a better, less objectionable solution.

I fail to see how your hack, which merely removes two of the most trivial
examples of decorator use, addresses anything in the general case. 

As far as a "better, less objectionable solution" - as I've said time and time
again, this subject has had 2+ years of discussion. Do you honestly 
expect that 2 or 3 more weeks here or there is going to produce some
blinding flash of insight? I'd love it to be true, but really, I can't see it.


From chris.cavalaria at free.fr  Thu Aug 26 14:58:22 2004
From: chris.cavalaria at free.fr (Christophe Cavalaria)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:58:22 +0200
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2457.1093542207.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<s9zr7ptahiy.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>
Message-ID: <412e32ce$0$18809$626a14ce@news.free.fr>

Bernhard Herzog wrote:

> "Robert Brewer" <fumanchu at amor.org> writes:
> 
>>> For
>>
>> Isn't *anyone* going to vote against?
> 
> I'm against it.  I don't find the arguments in favor of J2 convincing,
> and to my eyes the pie-syntax reads better.
> 
> Also, I don't think "using" is a good choice for the keyword.  A
> different keyword would not change my mind, though.
> 
>    Bernhard
> 

Same here. I don't mind too much the J2 syntax seeing that there were far
worse proposals but I find that the @pie syntax reads better too.

And I don't like using and I loath per ( too close to pre and only know to
good english speakers, it is bound to create a lot of mistakes ) as a
keyword for J2. Until there is a better keyword proposal I'm against it.


From adurdin at gmail.com  Sun Aug  8 10:27:53 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 00:27:53 +1000
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar,
	but for what exactly? (decorator libraries).
In-Reply-To: <roy-032D22.10191908082004@reader1.panix.com>
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
	<mailman.1352.1091953503.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-0D45FB.09322108082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1359.1091973019.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-032D22.10191908082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a040808072741d01ae@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 10:19:19 -0400, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> 
> The key question is whether the decorator mechanism would allow such a
> thing?  All of the examples I've seen have the decorator defined right
> before it's used, and having a simple name.  I'm guessing that the real
> syntax is @<callable>, and that any expression that evaluations to a
> callable object is kosher after the "@"?

There was some discussion about this on python-dev, and the BDFL's
conclusion was that arbitrary expressions were not allowed, but only
dotted names (with optional parentheses), i.e.:

@decorator
@module_or_object.decorator
@func_returning_decorator(args)
@module_or_object.func_returning_decorator(args)

(With presumably multiple dotted levels allowed, e.g. module.object.decorator)

See http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/ref/function.html for the
grammar definition.


From bokr at oz.net  Tue Aug 10 20:12:44 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 00:12:44 GMT
Subject: remaining decorator syntax options
References: <d11dcfba.0408101133.4943f06b@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfbo9s$s4v$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

On 10 Aug 2004 12:33:36 -0700, steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard) wrote:

>So here's the state of the decorator debate as I see it:
>
>
>*** Location
>
>GvR pretty strongly wants decorators before the function:
>
>http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047112.html
>http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047279.html
>
>The idea being that decorators and other function properties should
>not look like part of the function's code.  I don't think there's much
>chance of swaying GvR on this count.
>
>
>*** Indentation
>
>Since location has been pretty much decided, I see three options here:
>
>(1)
><indicator> dec
>def f():
>    pass
>
>(2)
><indicator>
>    dec
>def f():
>    pass
>
>(3)
><indicator> dec
>    def f():
>        pass
>
(4)
dec<indicator>
def f():
    pass

Suggested indicator: '(=' or '(:' or '(%'  e.g.,

dec(=
def f():
    pass

>GvR definitely disliked the third version because it meant that class
>functions could all be at different indentation levels.  The PEP
>suggests that the second version was disliked because it suggests that
>"using" is introducing a new scope (although arguments about if/else
>behavior seemed to counter this somewhat).  There didn't seem to be
>any arguments that made version 2 drastically better than version 1
>though, so it seems most likely that a BDFL pronouncement will give us
>version 1.
>
>
>*** List notation
>
>Assuming a pre-def, non-indented decorator, here are the remaining
>list notations:
>
>(1)
><indicator> dec1
><indicator> dec2
><indicator> dec3
>
>(2)
><indicator> [dec1, dec2, dec3]
>
>(3)
><indicator> dec1, dec2, dec3
>
(4)
dec1<indicator>
dec2<indicator>
dec3<indicator>

e.g.,

dec1(=
dec2(=
dec3(=
def f(): pass


>I believe that version 3 was vetoed because it makes it too hard to
>break lists of decorators across lines.  GvR's preference is
>definitely for 1, but that may be influenced by his decision for the
>indicator.  I have a feeling that how long the indicator is directly
>affects which of (1) or (2) is preferred.  Compare:
>
>@dec1
>@dec2
>@dec3
>
>vs.
>
>@[dec1, dec2, dec3]
>
>and
>
>using dec1
>using dec2
>using dec3
>
>vs.
>
>using [dec1, dec2, dec3]
>
>It seems like with a single symbol character, the non-list syntax is
>much more concise, and probably clearer.  However with a keyword
>syntax the list seems the better option.
>
>Which brings us, of course to the final section:
>
>*** Indicator
>
>The options seemed to be:
>
>(1) a symbol (@, |, etc.)
>(2) a keyword (using, decorate, etc.)
>(3) similar to function
>(4) no indicator
>
(5) postfixed indicators [ (: (= (% <<< etc ]
    dec1 (=
    dec2 (=
    def foo(): pass


>Options (3) and (4) were ruled out because (given that we're already
>relegated to a before-def syntax) they are already valid syntax, and
>redefining them for decorators means changing the expected semantics
>of the statements.
>
>Option (1), with @, is GvR's favorite, and does have something of a
>Java backing.  It has the substantial disadvantage that there is no
>particular reason (or even some sort of mnemonic) for which @ (or |
>for that matter) should mean "decorator".
>
>With option (2), we can choose a keyword that does suggest a
>decorator.  Even "using", which is not an outstanding choice, is at
>least more intuitive than '@'.  Option (2) does have the disadvantage
>that it requires introducing a new keyword, but this is not
>insurmountable -- it was done before for generators.  And GvR even
>said that he would consider this option if there enough support for
>it.
>
>----
>
>So here's my suggestions:
>
>Let's leave the location and indentation arguments behind.  We're not
>making much progress on them, and I don't think there's much chance of
>swaying GvR.  Reiterating all the old arguments won't get us closer to
>a syntax we're happy with.
>
>I think once the indicator argument is decided, the list-structure
>decision will fall out of it.
>
>So I'd suggest that we put all our effort into the indicator
>discussions.  If you have a good argument for why a keyword is better
>than a symbol, or why a symbol is better than a keyword, please voice
>them now.  And remember that 'because it's prettier' or 'because it's
>uglier' are not aguments GvR will consider.  We need strong arguments,
>that argue on the basis of readability or learnability or
>maintainability, etc.
You don't think GvR goes for prettier, other things being equal?

>
>
>... and my opinion:
>
>A keyword is much more Pythonic than a symbol:
Yes, except that what we have is really nested function calls,
passing a special argument, so maybe the decorating functions
ought to look like they are being invoked as functions. I.e.,

    deco1(
    deco2(
    arg_that_happens_to_be_created_by_a_def_statement_and_suite
    ))

But, since it's not an ordinary argument list, we need an alternative
to the function-calling expression trailer (...) that yet suggests calling.
Since the def defines its own end, we don't need the )) above, but we do
need a different '(' -- so I'm suggesting (= or maybe (: or (% or <<<, so
the above simply becomes

    deco1(=
    deco2(=
    arg_that_happens_to_be_created_by_a_def_statement_and_suite

and deco1 and deco2 can just be arbitrary expressions evaluating to something
callable.

If other statement:suite blocks can be interpreted as defining arguments useful
to pass to a function, then
    func(=
    statement: suite
could be used in a generalized way to operate on those. The loose end here is
re/binding the function (or class, etc) name. I.e., would you want to write

    foo = deco1(=
    deco2(=
    def foo():
        pass
?
Or maybe

    foo = (
    deco1(=
    deco2(=
    def foo():
        pass
    )

So long as postfixed (= is just sugar for the current use case,
it doesn't matter, of course. The rebinding can be a side effect
of an expression whose value is discarded.


>
>A well chosen keyword can suggest the meaning of the construction,
>e.g. "using ... def ..." suggests that the decorators are used as part
>of the definition of the function.  A symbol like '@' or '|' cannot
>easily suggest the meaning in this manner.
But deco(...) suggests calling deco with something, and that's what's happening.
We just need to distinguish the def-result-as-argument variant, IMO.
>
>For this reason, a keyword makes both reading and learning Python
>decorator syntax easier.  If you encounter "using ... def ..." and
>have to guess at it's meaning, your knowledge of English "using" can
>now be applied to guess the meaning of Python "using".  This is not
>true of a symbol like '@' or '|'.
see above ;-)
>
>(An additional argument might be that it will be at least /possible/
>to Google "using", but impossible to do so for "@" or "|".  This was
>one of the frustrating things about Perl for me -- if I didn't know
>what a symbol did, I couldn't Google it because it wasn't a word. 
>Remember that if you don't know it's a decorator, you don't know to
>search for "decorate" ;)
I do like google. How about a postfixed keyword indicator like 'munges' ;-)

deco1 munges
deco2 munges
def foo(): pass

;-)
>
>
>hoping-to-keep-this-dicussion-productive-ly-yrs,
>
hoping-to-have-added-something-useful-ly-yrs,

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From nicksjacobson at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 17 07:02:02 2004
From: nicksjacobson at yahoo.com (Nick Jacobson)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 04:02:02 -0700
Subject: Simple exceptions question
References: <f8097096.0408161106.6292244f@posting.google.com>
	<h4h7v1-mk8.ln1@valpo.de>
Message-ID: <f8097096.0408170209.7822d100@posting.google.com>

Thanks for the reply!  I'm definitely trying this out..

> the python interpreter. Its easy to find out, which statement caused
> the exception.

How can you do that?

> Yes: create your own list class (maybe by inheriting list). Give each
> instance an unique name. Use a setitem method like this: 
> 
> class seq(list):
>   # some code suppressed...
>   def   getitem  (self,index):
>     try: list.  getitem  (self,index)
>     except IndexError,e:
>       e.index = index
>       e.name = self.name
>       raise e
> 
> Thus you can write the except clause as:
> 
>   except IndexError, e:
>     print "Accessed array ", e.name, " out of bounds at", e.index 
> 
> Mathias

It says that "self.name" is undefined:
"AttributeError: 'seq' object has no attribute 'name'"


From pinard at iro.umontreal.ca  Mon Aug 23 12:55:33 2004
From: pinard at iro.umontreal.ca (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois?= Pinard)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:55:33 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <cg4rn2$omu$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
References: <mailman.2029.1093000322.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cg4rn2$omu$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
Message-ID: <20040823165533.GA9841@titan.progiciels-bpi.ca>

My vote (once again):

    J2 J2 J2

repeated here juste in case I should have kept the same Subject for it.

-- 
Fran?ois Pinard   http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard


From jjl at pobox.com  Thu Aug 12 16:18:58 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 21:18:58 +0100
Subject: The winner of the Python Decorator Poll is...
References: <Ue-dnX0CBNhaEYfcRVn-ig@comcast.com>
	<mailman.1533.1092259988.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4edc17eb.0408112052.1bbd85b3@posting.google.com>
	<xfWdnbEzLpJD5obcRVn-vw@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <87acx0p0st.fsf@pobox.com>

Doug Holton <insert at spam.here> writes:

> Michele Simionato wrote:
> > Indeed. Actually I did not vote since I like the current proposal (maybe
> > I would like "|"  more than "@") and I dislike all the alternatives,
> > especially having decorators inside the def.
> > So the poll is unavoidably biased. Happily, we are not in a
> > democracy!
> 
> 
> Do you think there are 400 people out there that read about the poll
> but didn't vote because they like the current proposal as it stands?

Of course.  *easily*


> That's what would have had to have happened for bias to completely
> invalidate the results.

Er, yup.


John


From nzanella at cs.mun.ca  Thu Aug 19 13:43:15 2004
From: nzanella at cs.mun.ca (Neil Zanella)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 10:43:15 -0700
Subject: Unix applications in python: production install questions
Message-ID: <b68d2f19.0408190943.9cd4b85@posting.google.com>

Hello,

What is the best way to install a python application under Unix. Since python
modules are platform independent I would guess these should be placed under an
application specific directory under either /usr/share or /usr/local/share with
a corresponding link to the main module(s) under /usr/bin or /usr/local/bin for
user applications and /usr/sbin or /usr/local/sbin for system applications.
Assuming this is done, should .pyc and .pyo files also be placed under
/usr/share or /usr/local/share? These are platform independent byte
code so they definitely go there if anywhere. The question is
whether the installer should install these files or not.
Provided the installer is to install these files, then
how can they be generated. Usually these are created
automatically each time the user runs python on a
given module, but is there another way to generate
them and should they really be installed separately
in a production scenario or not?

Thanks,

Neil


From grante at visi.com  Wed Aug 25 12:54:21 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 16:54:21 GMT
Subject: Getting at the bits of a 32-bit integer
References: <85b54e91.0408231552.75f85727@posting.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.23.20.16.40.406025@jerf.org>
	<412a98f4$0$65569$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<412cb279$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
	<412cb407$0$62953$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<mailman.2367.1093451893.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <412cc43d$0$8084$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-25, Jesper Ribbe <pjn at ribbe.se> wrote:

>> The other thing that looks very useful is a module posted a few
>> weeks back that impliments fixed-length numbers.  In addition
>> to manipulating individual bits, one often needs to do
>> operations on binary, two's compliment numbers of known, fixed
>> lengths.
>> 
>
> I'm very interested in this module which implements fixed-length 
> integers. Do you perhaps have some reference to it? I tried to google 
> for it, but couldn't come up with distinct enough keywords.

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=m3pt6qpzan.fsf%40pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk&rnum=10

I think that automatic coercion of regular Python integer
values to fixed "Field" objects would make it simpler to use.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  UH-OH!! I put on
                                  at               "GREAT HEAD-ON TRAIN
                               visi.com            COLLISIONS of the 50's"
                                                   by mistake!!!


From peter at engcorp.com  Sat Aug 21 22:07:20 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 22:07:20 -0400
Subject: sock.recv() in Windows
In-Reply-To: <YxRVc.57595$wo.1554@okepread06>
References: <YxRVc.57595$wo.1554@okepread06>
Message-ID: <XOCdnTp4E93CYrrcRVn-vw@powergate.ca>

Jason wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> When using the socket module in Python 2.3 for windows, I'm having problems
> using socket.recv(int).  The function works fine on its own, but when I
> attempt to encapsulate the socket functions into a class method, my script
> just hangs with the Python DOS window open.
> 
> My class method is simple:
> 
> def getData(self, max_size=1024):
>     return self.sock.recv(max_size)
> 
> Why would an instance of this class cause python to hang in windows?  

Define "hang".  You do realize that socket.recv() is blocking
by default, and will "hang" until data arrives, don't you?

I don't think you've given nearly enough info for anyone to
do more than guess wildly here...

-Peter


From tor.iver.wilhelmsen at broadpark.no  Thu Aug 26 03:44:17 2004
From: tor.iver.wilhelmsen at broadpark.no (Tor Iver Wilhelmsen)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 09:44:17 +0200
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.SOL.4.58.0408251722510.568@zaphod.rite-group.com>
Message-ID: <upt5eibse.fsf@broadpark.no>

Rich Teer <rich.teer at rite-group.com> writes:

> I think you're getting confused with the Blue ?yster Cult.

Actually, there is also The Cult, a British band that lasted from
1984-1995.

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:5qktk6gx9kr3~T1


From Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU  Mon Aug 30 19:58:29 2004
From: Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU (Michael J. Fromberger)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 19:58:29 -0400
Subject: Generator expressions v/s list comprehensions
References: <mahesh-525B07.12195528082004@individual.net>
	<1gj8y77.6qshr41q531veN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<mahesh-7E265C.14093428082004@individual.net>
	<87llfywooz.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<mahesh-F76AD6.17094429082004@individual.net>
	<1gjbs1e.assxlxlud1m0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Michael.J.Fromberger-EA86FE.19582930082004@localhost>

In article <1gjbs1e.assxlxlud1m0N%aleaxit at yahoo.com>,
 aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) wrote:

> Mahesh Padmanabhan <mahesh at privacy.net> wrote:
> > 
> > I just wish that generator expressions had been designed into the 
> > language without going the way of list comprehension -> generator 
> > expressions.
> 
> It would sure be nice if Python had been born back from day one with all
> the neat features it has taken years to develop -- that way we wouldn't
> have any issues that are there just because of backwards compatibility.
> 
> Unfortunately, this wish is totally unrealistic -- obviously people do
> come up with cool ideas such as the iterator protocol, and generators,
> after the language has been around for a while.  

All the cool features Python has adopted existed a long time before they 
made their way into Python itself.  As I see it, the real issue with 
taking up new language features is that the vast majority of work-a-day 
programmers seem to be highly reticent to embrace new tools and ideas, 
for one reason or another.  I think this explains -- among other things 
-- the lingering popularity of languages like BASIC (in its various 
incarnations), and Fortran.

In fact, one of the things I love most about Python, both the language 
and the community surrounding it, is that here, for the first time, we 
see a large community of mainstream programmers who are ready, willing, 
and able to adapt to new ideas without losing their heads and retreating 
into the ostensibly safe and comfortable world of linear imperative 
programming.  Instead of insisting everybody forget what they know and 
start over, however, Python gives us the old familiar stuff, too, and 
the new ideas come in a little at a time.

Frankly, I think if the Lisp world had managed to build the same 
friendly and welcoming community Python seems to have, it would have 
taken over the world a quarter-century ago.

-M

-- 
Michael J. Fromberger             | Lecturer, Dept. of Computer Science
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~sting/  | Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA


From http  Thu Aug 26 16:59:11 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 13:59:11 -0700
Subject: Inline Conditionals?
References: <mailman.2307.1093385983.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<jt6dnb18R-cz6LDcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
	<1gj4rpq.1oyt89b14xvbdqN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncirqvf.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<1gj5bit.rt2tmzcznspxN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7xbrgxobts.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:
> aux = []
> for x in Somelist:
>     if x.property:
>         aux.append(foo(x))
>     else
>         aux.append(foo(x))
> 
> would be vastly more readable; "sparse is better than dense" and any LC
> is far too dense to be Pythonic here.

Hmm,

    [ x.property ? foo(x) : bar(x) for x in Somelist ]

doesn't seem too dense, unless you consider -every- LC to be too
dense, in which case why have them?  The LC seems to me to be both
more readable and harder to get wrong, unlike your sparse example,
which has 'foo' on both branches of the conditional where you meant
'foo' and 'bar'.

I could see adding some parentheses in the LC to improve readability:

    [ (x.property ? foo(x) : bar(x)) for x in Somelist ]

but it doesn't seem like a big deal.


From claird at lairds.us  Thu Aug 19 19:08:09 2004
From: claird at lairds.us (Cameron Laird)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:08:09 GMT
Subject: How big can a Python program be?
References: <903b3fba.0408170333.49ce3944@posting.google.com>
	<DZKdnWOMArY6ZrzcRVn-rw@powergate.ca>
	<903b3fba.0408180655.6a23aede@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <lanfv1-n9v.ln1@lairds.us>

In article <903b3fba.0408180655.6a23aede at posting.google.com>,
 <vronskij at post.sk> wrote:
			.
			.
			.
>Simple. Can you make an ERP in Python? Or is Python limited to little
>nice scripts or small programs with nice GUI?
>We are thinking to start a huge project, which could be hundreds of
>thousands of lines huge. I would finally know the answer, but it is
>probably better to ask first...

Several of us have experience working with Python projects
which occupy hundreds of thousands of lines.


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 30 19:36:35 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 19:36:35 -0400
Subject: Upgrading to 2.3 from 2.2, questions
In-Reply-To: <gOGdnchgidt_N67cRVn-uA@adelphia.com>
References: <gOGdnchgidt_N67cRVn-uA@adelphia.com>
Message-ID: <CPednTg__cSYJ67cRVn-gQ@powergate.ca>

Robert Oschler wrote:

> (Note: if there is a FAQ that covers this issue just give me the URL.  I
> checked python.org's General and Windows FAQ's and didn't see anything.)

I think it's a frequently asked question, but it's not a FAQ...
> 
> I am about to upgrade from Python 2.2 to 2.3.  Here are a few questions:
> 
> - Do I need to uninstall 2.2 first?

I don't know if there's an official answer other than "yes".  I don't
know if there's a safe answer other than "yes".

> - Are there any paths I should add to my Win 2k PATH environment variable?

Same as whatever you have with Python 2.2....  I try never to put
apps in my PATH, but use lots of .BAT files to run things and put
all those in a single \BIN folder that is in my PATH.  Seems to
work out much cleaner that way.

> - I am running on Windows 2000 and I have several site-packages installed.
> These were installed using individual one-click installation programs (thank
> you module writers).  Do I need to rerun each of the installations again,
> after I upgrade?  Or, is there a directory or two I can simply copy over?

While it might work, it's not guaranteed.  Extensions need to
be compiled for the specific version, while pure Python packages
will generally run as-is if you just copy them (generally they
are all in python/lib/site-packages).  No guarantees again.

> - Anything I should do before upgrading to preserve my current setup, or
> other caveats?

Basically, nothing other than uninstall and full install of new
version plus all extensions is guaranteed to work, IMHO and IME.
On the other hand, I've often gotten by without uninstalling
and by copying or just leaving site-packages as-is, with the
exception of getting new versions of anything that has a .pyd
or .dll (C extensions).

-Peter


From chris.cavalaria at free.fr  Sat Aug 14 09:48:00 2004
From: chris.cavalaria at free.fr (Christophe Cavalaria)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:48:00 +0200
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
References: <9ADC3170-EDAF-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>
	<mailman.1652.1092490554.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <411e1810$0$18621$626a14ce@news.free.fr>

Paul Morrow wrote:

> Chas Emerick wrote:
> 
> [...snip...]
>> 
>> The first time I saw this, I almost fell out of my chair:
>> 
>> def blah (args):
>> ....[insert 50/100/200 lines here]
>> blah = staticmethod(blah)
>> 
> 
> me too.
> 
> [...snip...]
>> 
>> So, when I see:
>> 
>> @staticmethod
>> def blah (args):
>> ....[insert 100 lines]
>> 
>> I say, YES!
> [...snip...]
> 
> I say, NO!  And I wonder why we feel a need to explicitly (and
> superflously) 'declare' something that is already clearly evident in the
> code (when recommended coding practices are followed).
> 
> class Foo:
>     def blah(a, b):         # this is clearly a static method
>        pass
> 
>     def blah(self, a, b):   # this is clearly an instance method
>        pass
> 
>     def blah(klass, a, b):  # this is clearly a class method
>        pass
> 
> Python was built (successfully) on the assumption that obvious
> interpretations of the code obviate the need for declarations.  Why
> wouldn't we continue with that mindset?
> 
> Paul

That remark is orthogonal to the problem at hand. staticmethod isn't the
only use for decorators although it's currently the most common example.
You are guilty of attacking the specific example instead of the general
idea behind it.

Of course, it doesn't mean that I don't like your idea. In fact, it find it
elegant except the the "klass" word which is ugly.



From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Fri Aug  6 05:33:17 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 06 Aug 2004 11:33:17 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no> <4112AC7B.1060508@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806egka@bombur.uio.no> <411343D7.3020604@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040806c08y@bombur.uio.no>

Martin v. L?wis wrote:
>Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
>> Well, I don't think that's better, but if it's rejected for Python
>> that'll be my next stop.
> 
> I can see how the global warning is provided (which then can be 
> configured into an error through the warnings module). However,
> I don't want to introduce additional magic comments. I already
> dislike the coding declarations for being comments, and would
> have preferred if they had been spelled as
> 
> directive encoding "utf-8"

I can see that.

> The coding declaration was only acceptable because
> - a statement would have to go before the doc string, in
>    which case it would not have been a docstring anymore, and

Hmm...

  >>> def foo():
  ...   """h?r"""
  ...   pass
  ... 
  >>> help(foo)
  Help on function foo in module __main__:
  
  foo()
      h?r
  
  >>> def bar():
  ...   u"""h?r"""
  ...   pass
  ... 
  >>> help(bar)
  >>> help(bar)
  Traceback (most recent call last):
    ...
  UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode character '\uf8'
  in position 59: ordinal not in range(128)

Even if the doc string is written in English, it may still need to
use non-English names.

> - there was prior art (Emacs and VIM) for declaring encodings
>    to editors, inside comments
> 
> Your proposed annotation has no prior art. As it has
> effects on the syntax of the language, it should not be in
> a comment.

Well, I think it belongs logically together with the coding
declarations, but I see your point.

Still, how about 'directive str7bit', 'directive -W::str7bitWarning' or
something?

Or '@str7bit' / '@option -W::str7bitWarning', come to think of it.  Like
your 'directive encoding "utf-8"', it affects the parsing of the file.
So I think this is a good time to use a special character, so the
construct will stand out.

And '@decorator_name' would be '@decorator decorator_name', of course.
But I'll go to the other thread with that.

-- 
Hallvard


From liquid at NoSpamKuht.it  Mon Aug  2 16:16:40 2004
From: liquid at NoSpamKuht.it (GMTaglia)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 20:16:40 GMT
Subject: os.walk() maxdepth
Message-ID: <IixPc.66684$OR2.3898494@news3.tin.it>

I've googled a lot but I couldn't figure out how to implement a maxdepth in
os.walk(), does anybody had the necessity to do something like that?

thanks in advance and....
...as usual forgive my english

-- 
Liquid
http://softwarelibero.kuht.it <-> www.kuht.it


From tor.iver.wilhelmsen at broadpark.no  Thu Aug 26 14:50:06 2004
From: tor.iver.wilhelmsen at broadpark.no (Tor Iver Wilhelmsen)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 20:50:06 +0200
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.SOL.4.58.0408251722510.568@zaphod.rite-group.com>
	<upt5eibse.fsf@broadpark.no>
	<Pine.SOL.4.58.0408261056530.568@zaphod.rite-group.com>
Message-ID: <uekltloo1.fsf@broadpark.no>

Rich Teer <rich.teer at rite-group.com> writes:

> I belive the Cult (She Sells Sanctuary, etc.) is another manfifestation
> of the Blue ?yster Cult.

Does not seem so: Founding member Ian Astbury is not listed as member
of any other groups, for instance.

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:5qktk6gx9kr3~T1


From mudd at vex.net  Sat Aug  7 20:18:00 2004
From: mudd at vex.net (mudd at vex.net)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 20:18:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: decorators vs GIL
In-Reply-To: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>
References: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <4512.24.233.156.35.1091924280.squirrel@webmail.vex.net>

> On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 22:20:31 +0200,
> 	Mikl?s <nospam at nowhere.hu> wrote:
>> Yes, this was exactly my point. Performance and GIL. Those are problems.
>> And problems must be solved.
>
> Problems for who?

Me, for one.

Yes, I can code around the GIL.  I do that routinely.  It's a pain to keep
working around the GIL.  Especially knowing that it's not necessary in
other languages, but it can be done.  Sigh.

What really hurts is that I can't honestly tell Java programmers that
Python  is a slam dunk compared to Java & the JVM.  Java has no GIL,
Python does.  Once I admit this, nobody listens to what Python does well. 
It's a shame.

> I have no problems with Python's performance in my
> applications.  I avoid threads because they're error-prone,

Isn't that like saying, I avoid programming in general because it's
error-prone?  I don't follow.

I agree that threads do introduce an additional level of complexity.  But
so does programming multi-user applications versus single-user apps.  But
I've never heard programmers routinely say that they avoid multi-user apps
because they're "error-prone".

But isn't the GIL on the way out already?  Jython offers access to the
non-GIL threads of the JVM.  I always use Java threads when working with
Jython.  That's great!  I suppose Iron Python will do the same with CLR. 
And one of the main reasons for the Prothon project (the mythical "Python
fork"?) is the elimination of the GIL.  It sound like alternatives are on
the way.  But what's the future of Python?

> so the GIL
> doesn't affect me.

but, but... no programmer is an island?

>
> Free software projects are run by the people who actually contribute code.
> If sorted() and reversed() were added, it's because Raymond Hettinger
> actually wrote code to implement them, and GvR didn't dislike them.  If
> people who want decorators are willing to expend effort to implement them,
> test them, conform to the coding standard, then they can be considered for
> inclusion.  So, if you want to see the GIL fixed, or performance
> improvements made, you have to work on these problems.

I'm guessing the GIL is beyond any of us.  If it was easy, or even
possible, someone would have already eliminated it.


>
> --amk
>
>



From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Sat Aug 21 21:06:02 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:06:02 -0400
Subject: __metaclass__ and __author__ are already decorators
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2132.1093136221.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2107.1093099087.5135.python-list@python.org>	<2opgsoFd7807U1@uni-berlin.de>	<mailman.2116.1093113995.5135.python-list@python.org>	<2opp6gFdg3e7U1@uni-berlin.de>	<mailman.2121.1093122249.5135.python-list@python.org>	<2oq4keFd90euU1@uni-berlin.de>	<mailman.2131.1093135604.5135.python-list@python.org>	<2oq93oFdnrmoU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<mailman.2132.1093136221.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2oq9lkFd7m32U1@uni-berlin.de>

Paul Morrow wrote:
> Leif K-Brooks wrote:
> 
>> Paul Morrow wrote:
>>
>>> So when we define an __xxx__ attribute inside of a function, we are 
>>> trying to make a statement about the function --- we are not trying 
>>> to create a local variable.  Therefore the Python system shouldn't 
>>> create a local variable in this case; it should create a function 
>>> variable instead (IMO).
>>
>> How do you think a newbie will react to magic behavior like that from 
>> the assignment operator based entirely on the name being assigned to?
> 
> We must emphasize that they are assigning to a 'magic' variable, as all 
> __xxx__ attributes are supposed to be.  One must be careful with magic :-)

I'm starting to reconsider whether I like your proposal. My first 
reaction was against it, since it seems like Perl-style magic behavior, 
but now I'm not sure. It definitely is magic, but its purpose seems much 
more clear than a lot of the other decorator proposals; that's what 
Python is all about.


From pf_moore at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Aug  7 11:34:02 2004
From: pf_moore at yahoo.co.uk (Paul Moore)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 16:34:02 +0100
Subject: dispatch tables in Python 2.4
References: <4edc17eb.0408070625.61a0624d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <pt63gdxx.fsf@yahoo.co.uk>

michele.simionato at gmail.com (Michele Simionato) writes:

> BTW, what's the status of the so called "functional" module? I think
> there was a rumor of such a module scheduled for Python 2.4 or 2.5.
> To play with decorators we really need some standard way to compose
> functions and to do partial application of arguments.

PEP 309 is marked as "Accepted", and an implementation patch exists.
The PEP needs updating, and there are possibly a few more procedural
things to do before the code is checked in. I emailed the author of
the PEP on Friday, asking about this. I think it's mainly lack of
tuits.

The PEP only covers partial application, BTW.

Paul.
-- 
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
-- Arthur C. Clarke


From porky_pig_jr at my-deja.com  Sun Aug 15 00:04:29 2004
From: porky_pig_jr at my-deja.com (Porky Pig Jr)
Date: 14 Aug 2004 21:04:29 -0700
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <56cfb0e3.0408142004.511a8a8e@posting.google.com>

beliavsky at aol.com wrote in message news:<3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760 at posting.google.com>...
> One of the most commmon reasons programmers cite for not trying Python
> is that indentation determines the program flow -- they think its
> weird. I think programmers who actually try Python adapt quickly and
> do not find the indentation rules to be a problem.
> 

Not only it's *not a problem*. I've found it quite useful since it
forces you to keep the proper indentation.

Granted, the very first time I read about this feature, I've thought:
what a funny thing -- but then I've realized that since I keep the
proper indentation anyway, Python simply eliminates 'parenthetical
clutter' (in addition of forcing you to keep the code nicely
alligned).

For instance, in C I write

if (condition) {
    statement-1
    statement-2
}
else {
    statement-3
    statement-4
}

or some other coders prefer to write

if (condition) {
    statement-1
    statement-2
} else {
    statement-3
    statement-4
}

but in Python all those extra parenths are gone, and code is more
compact, more easily observable. you can squeeze more code into a
single displayble area which *is* important.

On the other hand, C has nothing that prevents someone from writing
the code:

if (condition) {
statement-1
statement-2 }
else {
statement-3
statement-4
}

Just had the situation a few weeks ago when novice C++ programmer
asked for help. Even if that programmer used emacs, somehow she has
managed to write the code as above. I simply told her to get her
identation in place first and then get back to me.

So: if you are a programmer who - as a matter of habit - writes nice
properly indented code, you will quickly appreciate the advantages of
Python (just like I did), and if you don't -- well, that's too bad.


From crgre.znnf at hgvybt.qr  Sun Aug 22 06:58:50 2004
From: crgre.znnf at hgvybt.qr (Peter Maas)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:58:50 +0200
Subject: J2 decorator grammar
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2130.1093134487.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2130.1093134487.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2orckjFdtljaU1@uni-berlin.de>

Robert Brewer schrieb:
> Michael Sparks wrote:
> For that reason (and others), I plan not to promote any form of the word
> "decorate". We can start having that conversation now if you want. ;)

What about

with:
     return ...
     accept ...
     classmethod
def func():
     <function body>

"using" instead of "with" would be equally satisfactory for me. I don't
like "decorate" because it sounds like "attaching some bells and whistles"
or "making it look pretty" which isn't adequate for the meaning of this
syntax.

-- 
Peter Maas, Aachen, Germany, Tel +49-241-38200 e-mail crgre.znnf at hgvybt.qr


From glc at well.com  Tue Aug 24 10:16:48 2004
From: glc at well.com (Greg Chapman)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:16:48 GMT
Subject: Regular expression guaranteed to fail
References: <yyrjacwqdrlk.fsf@pc156.maths.bris.ac.uk>
	<cg4p0p$6v7$1@news-reader1.wanadoo.fr>
	<HBF.20040822jyb6@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <96jmi0pt39frp5n3r34afrt21cfeclp0mi@4ax.com>

On 22 Aug 2004 20:07:51 +0200, Hallvard B Furuseth <h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no>
wrote:

>Eric Brunel wrote:
>
>> I also looked for a never-matching re just a few days ago and ended up
>> with "^(?!$)$". It's certainly not more "standard" than yours, but I
>> find it a wee tad more readable (for a regular expression, I mean...):
>
>I think e.g. r'\Zx' and r'x\A' are more readable.  In particular the
>latter, but perhaps that causes Python to locate every 'x' in the string
>and then check if the string starts at the next character...

Why not just "(?!)": this always fails immediately (since an empty pattern
matches any string, the negation of an empty pattern match always fails).

---
Greg Chapman


From hamilcar at tld.always.invalid  Tue Aug  3 20:48:32 2004
From: hamilcar at tld.always.invalid (Hamilcar Barca)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 18:48:32 -0600
Subject: Modern dead-tree Python resources
References: <mailman.1101.1091568194.5135.python-list@python.org>	<411016d7_1@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <20040803204805.275$3T@news.newsreader.com>

In article <411016d7_1 at 127.0.0.1> (Tue, 03 Aug 2004 17:51:03 -0500),
beliavsky at aol.com wrote:

> 
> Michael Ekstrand <python at elehack.net> wrote:
> 
>>Is there a good book that covers Python at least through 2.2 (including
>>new-style classes, etc.)? I'm particularly looking for something with 
>>large appendices of reference material. (alternatively, if someone's 
>>publishing print versions of the Python documentation, that would 
>>possibly be of interest. 
> 
> A good reference for Python 2.2 

And references to Python 2.3.

> is "Python in a Nutshell", by Alex Martell.

Alex Martelli.

It's one of the best language references I've read.


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Aug 16 14:56:29 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:56:29 -0400
Subject: Flython
References: <slrnchq8lg.q3d.ramen@lackingtalent.com><mailman.1644.1092461737.5135.python-list@python.org><Pine.LNX.4.44.0408140153500.21775-100000@ccc2.wpi.edu><m3llgfmhca.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408161041590.8576-100000@ccc3.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <cfr00u$rob$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Christopher T King" <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0408161041590.8576-100000 at ccc3.wpi.edu...

>I'm using http://docs.python.org/ref/grammar.txt as my grammar
>reference.
...
> :(  Is there at least some rationale why the AST trees don't match the
> grammar definitions?

The grammar in the Ref Manual, which is collected together in the above
file, is intended and used for human comsumption.  The equivalent but not
identical grammar in a source code file is intended and used for
parser-generator comsumption.  It consitutes its own documentation.  You
aren't the first person to trip on the difference.  The rationale is that
people and parser generators 'think' differently.

I don't know whether AST trees exactly match the parser grammarr or if they
effectively follow a third form, hopefully also exactly equivalent.  You
have wandered into as-yet inadequately documented internals land.

Terry J. Reedy





From jburgy at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 13 07:10:31 2004
From: jburgy at hotmail.com (Jan Burgy)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 04:10:31 -0700
Subject: Deep Black Magic in Python: please help
Message-ID: <807692de.0408130310.6e3ed9db@posting.google.com>

Hi everyone,

I am trying to convince my managers that python can replace the outdated and
soon no-longer maintained proprietary system (Tool for Calculator Design) we
use here. In order to achieve this, I need to analyze python code which will
look somethink like this:

def foo(arg_dict):
    return arg_dict["one"] + bar(arg_dict)

def bar(other_dict):
    return other_dict["two"] + other_dict[True and "three" or "four"]

The result of my analysis should return a list

    ['one', 'two', 'three']

Alright, that doesn't sound so bad. With a little RTFM-ing and hacking, I got

-- black magic starts here --

import compiler

def _evaluate(partial, name=""):
    from compiler.ast import Expression
    from compiler.misc import set_filename
    from compiler.pycodegen import ExpressionCodeGenerator

    tree = Expression(partial)
    set_filename(name, tree)
    gen = ExpressionCodeGenerator(tree)
    return eval(gen.getCode())

class RecursiveVisitor(compiler.visitor.ASTVisitor):
    def __init__(self, name):
        self.name = "Name(%s)" % repr(name)
        self.names = {}
    def visitSubscript(self, node, *args):
        if repr(node.expr) == self.name:
            try:
                name = _evaluate(node.subs[0])
            except:
                name = str(node.subs[0])
            self.names[name] = 1
    def visitCallFunc(self, node, *args):
        try:
            from inspect import getsource, getargspec
            from compiler import parse, walk
            func = _evaluate(node.node)
            pos = map(repr, node.args).index(self.name)
            src, arg = getsource(func), getargspec(func)[0]
            tmp, self.name = self.name, "Name(%s)" % repr(arg[pos])
            walk(parse(src), self)
            self.name = tmp
        except Exception, e:
            print str(e)

if __name__ == "__main__":
        
    from inspect import getsource
    from compiler import parse, walk

    src = getsource(foo)
    mod = parse(src)
    visitor = RecursiveVisitor("kw")
    walk(mod, visitor)
    print visitor.names.keys()

-- black magic ends here, ouch --

Once again, I'm in total awe at the possibilities python offers us lowly
users. Unfortunately we're all the same: you give us a finger, we want the
whole arm! I want this method to generalize to method calls as in

class baz:

    def foo(self, arg_dict):
        return arg_dict["one"] + self.bar(arg_dict)

    def bar(self, other_dict):
        return other_dict["two"] + other_dict[True and "three" or "four"]

It shouldn't be all that hard. My problem is the lookup of 'self.bar'. In
the AST it looks something like

    CallFunc(Getattr(Name('self'), 'bar'), [Name('arg_dict')], None, None)

How do I find the corresponding function? Anybody feels like wrapping
their head on this?

Cheers,

Jan Burgy


From peter at semantico.com  Tue Aug 17 09:14:59 2004
From: peter at semantico.com (Peter Hickman)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:14:59 +0100
Subject: How big can a Python program be?
In-Reply-To: <903b3fba.0408170333.49ce3944@posting.google.com>
References: <903b3fba.0408170333.49ce3944@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <412204d5$1$28243$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk>

vronskij at post.sk wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> A C program can be hundreds of thousands lines of code big.
> C++ millions.
> 
> How about Python?
> 
> Suppose , you are a sole programmer (lonewolf). How many lines can one handle?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> jan bodnar

Are you suggesting that a solo programmer wrote a multi million line C++ 
program? If not then what has this to do with 'How many lines can one handle?'

The application I am currently working on has 75,000 lines across some 600 
files. But I suspect that the line count is higher when you include the various 
libraries. So I am handling 75,000 lines in some sense, is this what you mean? 
Or are you talking about the number of lines per file (average 125) or perhaps 
lines per method?


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 11:38:14 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 01:38:14 +1000
Subject: [PATCH] RE: J2 decorator grammar
In-Reply-To: <4128ac0f$0$79299$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408221104090.22879-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>
	<mailman.2147.1093173853.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4128ac0f$0$79299$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082208382913ed0e@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 15:01:39 +0100, Michael Sparks
<zathras at thwackety.com> wrote:
> It should be done sometime this afternoon though. (Bulk of the time taken up
> is on re-running the test suite unsuprisingly)

One quick point - make sure you run the _full_ test suite (-uall arg
to regrtest,
or 'make testall'), otherwise things like the compiler tests won't get run.


From FBatista at uniFON.com.ar  Wed Aug 25 18:04:30 2004
From: FBatista at uniFON.com.ar (Batista, Facundo)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:04:30 -0300
Subject: Proposal for removing self
Message-ID: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C7864@escpl.tcp.com.ar>

[Brent W. Hughes]

#- When doing object-oriented stuff, it bothers me to have to 
#- type "self" so
#- many times.  I propose that Python allow the programmer to 
#- optionally type
#- ".variable" instead of "self.variable" to mean the same 
#- thing.  Of course,
#- the interpreter would have to be more careful about 
#- detecting floats that
#- begin with just a period as in ".5".  What are your thoughts?

I type less than read, so I prefer the code to be better readable than
writable.

I'm -1 on your proposal.

.	Facundo


From max at alcyone.com  Fri Aug  6 00:10:19 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 21:10:19 -0700
Subject: Confused about pep 318
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>
	<ceu7ue$n3u$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<mailman.1244.1091758578.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <411304AB.F53A5275@alcyone.com>

Skip Montanaro wrote:

>     Bengt> I too am very much against wasting '@' on @decorator!
> 
> We could just switch completely to Unicode.  Then we'd have all sorts
> of
> punctuation characters available.  How about
> 
>     # -*- coding: utf-8 -*-
>     \xe2\x98\xbadecorator
>     def f():
>         pass
> 
> ?

Given how things are looking so far with the reaction to the decorator
syntax, I'd say U+2639 might be more appropriate ...

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ Drifting from woman-who-tries misconstrued / Shifting to
    woman-wise -- Lamya


From zathras at thwackety.com  Sat Aug 21 18:53:01 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 23:53:01 +0100 (BST)
Subject: J2 decorator grammar
In-Reply-To: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E1B@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408212342050.23441-100000@pingu.thwackety.com>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Robert Brewer wrote:

[ given grammar ]
...
> > Would you consider this instead?

After I fix the scoping issue I'll consider lots of things. The second
version holds more weight though :)

> Did you ever fix the scope issue?

I'm working on it at the moment. (Interesting way to start looking at the
source tree :) Based on very helpful comments in the source the sequence
that happens is the symbol tables get defined, then on a second pass,
things are done in a more detailed fashion using these tables.

Upshot is at the moment this:

class Foo:
   #staticmethod

   decorate:
      staticmethod
   def Hoo(who):

Results in just Foo and Hoo being picked up, with staticmethod "hidden" in
the indented block, whereas this:

class Foo:
   staticmethod

   decorate:
      staticmethod
   def Hoo(who):

Result in Foo, Hoo and staticmethod being picked up - presumably because
they're in easily accessible blocks.

Likewise the @pie syntax falls into the second category, as does the
current 2.3 style of Hoo=staticmethod(Hoo) approach.

> Might it have something to do with:
>
> static void
> symtable_node(struct symtable *st, node *n)

I've tried this change, but whilst it doesn't work it's a useful avenue -
thanks :)

Regards,


Michael.




From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Sun Aug  8 08:21:41 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 08:21:41 -0400
Subject: Prothon is switching to the .NET platform
References: <000401c47b59$32539220$0d01a8c0@MarkVaio>
	<mailman.1257.1091769173.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061247130.22947-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<10h7lb21dhbuc12@news.supernews.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061533250.25906-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<10h7rittck6ct75@news.supernews.com>
	<cf1t0h$ond$03$1@news.t-online.com>
	<10h9dkm5ub5h1f2@news.supernews.com>
	<1dske12sbt1mj$.1aq70xrpy0r0i.dlg@40tude.net>
Message-ID: <10hc6mk55u0qq26@news.supernews.com>


"Mark Hahn" <mark at prothon.org> wrote in message
news:1dske12sbt1mj$.1aq70xrpy0r0i.dlg at 40tude.net...
> On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 07:01:55 -0400, John Roth wrote:
>
> > "Peter Otten" <__peter__ at web.de> wrote in message
> > news:cf1t0h$ond$03$1 at news.t-online.com...
> >> John Roth wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> "Christopher T King" <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote in message
> >>> news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061533250.25906-100000 at ccc8.wpi.edu...
> >>>> On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, John Roth wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> > I think it's possible to do prototypes within Python by
> >>>> > overriding the __getattribute__() magic method. It still
> >>>> > wouldn't be very pretty, but it should be able to do
> >>>> > everything except override the magic methods (those
> >>>> > seem to have to be in the class object for new style
> >>>> > classes).
> >>>>
> > [snip]
> >>>
> >>> What I was thinking of was more along the lines of:
> >>>
> >>> class ProtoBaseClass(object):
> >>>     def __getattribute__(self, attr):
> >>>         # call object.__getattribute__(self, __dict__)
> >>>         # find requested attribute
> >>
> >> Wouldn't that part be implied if you used __getattr__() instead of
> >> __getattribute()?
> >>
> >>>         # if not found, loop through back pointer chain
> >>>         # if it's not a function, return the attribute
> >>>         # if it is a function, wrap it in a method object and return
it.
> >>
> >> This means that an object sees all changes in its prototypes until
> >> explicitly assigned an attribute. Is this intentional? (real question,
I'm
> >> not familiar with prototyped languages)
> >
> > Actually, __getattribute__ sees all attribute requests, __getattr__
> > only sees requests where the attribute isn't found. The reason for
> > using __getattribute__ is that there are (I think) serious problems
> > with attempting to execute functions that weren't originally defined
> > in the base class or a subclass of the base class. In other words,
> > if the result is a function, there's more work that needs to be done,
> > and __getattr__ doesn't allow a hook to do it on the way out.
> >
> > The attempt from 2000 I referred to attempted to get around this
> > by using a callable instance together with a lambda. Unfortunately,
> > it didn't work when I tried it, and as I said, after looking at the
> > code I don't think it ever worked. The workaround for the function
> > problem might work, though.
>
> Lenard Lindstrom <len-l at telus.net> wrote a prototype implementation in
> Python.  He hangs out on the Prothon mailing list (and here also, I
> assume).  He probably knows more about this topic than anyone.

I'll have to check out what he's done - is it availible anywhere
other than by e-mail?

Hans Nowak just sent me a private e-mail pointing out that he
had done a Self-style implementation about a year ago. It looks
interesting, especially since it uses getattr and setattr rather than
getattribute. The trick with functions seems to be to use
new.instancemethod. Otherwise the code looks to be very
straightforward. __setattr__ just makes a couple of type
checks, insures that instances ending in _p are from the
selfish class, wraps functions in new.instancemethod and
rewraps methods likewise. __getattr__ implements the
inheritance rules.

The examples on his weblog (look at 2003-09-13) are quite nice;
he's got the clumsiness with instance methods down to one line after
the method, which seems to be a practical minimum. It should work
with the new decorator syntax as well.

John Roth
>
> Mark Hahn
> Prothon Author




From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 23:02:47 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:02:47 +1000
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040824200256aff0f0@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:29:38 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> ....that they warrant an entirely new syntax?  It seems that they are
> very similar in a very significant way --- they alter the default
> behavior of something.  IMO, it's not a stretch to say that they
> 'parallel' metaclasses; that they are to functions/methods what
> metaclasses are to classes.  So why don't they share a similar syntax?

No. Function decorators are to functions as class decorators are to classes.

Class decorators are not in 2.4, because you can do most things you'd
do with a class decorator by using a metaclass, but in a completely
different way. In my opinion, class decorators _should_ be in 2.4,
because they're a much saner way to handle many things that require a
metaclass today.

They don't "alter the default behaviour". A metaclass allows the user
to specify an object that builds classes in a new way. A decorator
allows the user to specify a way to transform the already built
function (or class, for class decorators).

Anthony


From zirpu at yahoo.com  Thu Aug  5 13:22:43 2004
From: zirpu at yahoo.com (zirpu xunre pelxu)
Date: 05 Aug 2004 10:22:43 -0700
Subject: bdist_rpm problems, and my work around.
Message-ID: <m34qnhsdng.fsf@yahoo.com>


python setup.py bdist_rpm 

[...]

# eventually complains about the extra -debuginfo package.

my work around:

in the package dir create .rpmmacros with just these lines:

%define debug_package %{nil}
#%#define _unpackaged_files_terminate_build  0


the 2nd line is not necessary usually, but there for reference.

then to build packages i do:

HOME=`pwd` python setup.py bdist_rpm


Quetions for those who might know:

where can i define rpm macros in setup.py?  there doesn't seem to be any support
for changing those default spec file templates that bdist_rpm uses.

-a



From insert at spam.here  Sun Aug 29 12:18:14 2004
From: insert at spam.here (Doug Holton)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 11:18:14 -0500
Subject: Announcing PyCs, a new Python-like language on .Net
In-Reply-To: <1093793065.258215@news.commspeed.net>
References: <mailman.2572.1093751093.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1093788608.645541@news.commspeed.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408291606250.2571-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<1093793065.258215@news.commspeed.net>
Message-ID: <r6adnVzwP4pbnK_cRVn-tg@comcast.com>


>>Is there a real danger that MS will make its own version of
>>Python, pushing it into the market, and we end up with a
>>dominant version that only works with MS software?

No, I don't think so.  They already have Visual Basic for that.  They 
are making their own version of Python (IronPython), but it will work 
with .NET or Mono (an open source clone of Microsoft's .NET framework).

And there are two other python-like languages now under development that 
will also target Mono as well as .NET: PyCs and boo.


> What M*soft should do is build libraries like the Speech Development Kit and
> Direct X into open source modules for Python. This way they are not trying
> to destroy open source but to join with it.

Yeah, that's the area I see Microsoft stuff still having an advantage, 
with libraries like DirectX, text to speech, force feedback, etc.  But 
you can access Microsoft's libraries from Python, see: 
http://sourceforge.net/projects/uncassist
The problem is that then your application will only run on Windows 
unless you can get it to work with Wine: http://www.winehq.org/

An advantage of IronPython/PyCs/boo is that they would make accessing 
libraries like DirectX much much easier.  You'll be able to access them 
the same way you would from Visual Basic or C#.  But a more 
cross-platform compatible way would be to use OpenGL (pyopengl or csgl 
if you are using .net) or SDL (pygame or sdl.net) instead of DirectX.


From pf_moore at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Aug 24 16:10:19 2004
From: pf_moore at yahoo.co.uk (Paul Moore)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 21:10:19 +0100
Subject: J2 paper 0.2.1
References: <mailman.2180.1093238695.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <wtzonvpw.fsf@yahoo.co.uk>

"Robert Brewer" <fumanchu at amor.org> writes:

> The first draft of the J2 proposal is ready. You can read it here:
> http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html
>
> At this point, I am looking for comments regarding the proposal. Once I
> believe I have addressed a sufficient number of concerns, I will freeze
> the document and call for signatories, both for and against, then send
> it to Guido. Until that time, expect the draft to change multiple times
> each day (there's a meta tag with the version number if you care to
> check).

I have just read this - it's a very good document. I don't necessarily
agree with all of it, and I'm not sure I'm convinced by it, but it
makes a solid proposal to submit.

Some comments:

1. I differ on the "it doesn't matter what the keyword is" statement.
   On the contrary, my view could completely change depending on the
   keyword - I'd loathe "predef", whereas "using" is acceptable to me.
   Putting the proposal forward *without* an agreed keyword isn't
   (IMHO) fair to people who have this view.
2. I agree with the person who pointed out that the indentation makes
   the decorators merge visually with the function name. This is a
   definite point against the syntax, and should be at least noted in
   section "Arguments - I - 3 Additional benefits" paragraph 2. In
   fact, I could esily argue that it completely invalidates this
   point, swinging it in favour of @ syntax.

Also, I'd say that the proposal needs to be submitted with a full,
working patch. This isn't meant to be sour grapes, but I'd be
concerned if the proposal was submitted, Guido approved it, and then
it wasnt't possible to get a working version ready in time for the
next alpha. Regardless of any other consideration, I'm completely
against any delay of the 2.4 timescales for this.

>From a brief reading of the description attached to the current patch,
I have a couple of comments:

1. The patch doesn't (according to the comment) implement the
   __future__ import. This needs to be added before the proposal is
   submitted. And __future__ support for the interactive prompt may be
   needed as well - I'm not sure here, see PEP 236 for the detail.
2. Does the patch support decorating classes? The @ syntax *might* by
   now (in CVS), there was discussion of adding it but I'm not sure it
   went in. The patch should probably provide the same functionality
   as CVS @-syntax, rather than just 2.4a2.

Having said all this, I'd have to say that I'm still not sure I'm
swayed. I'm only ever going to be an occasional user of decorators, I
suspect, so I don't really care a *lot*, but I think I still prefer @
decorators.

Paul.
-- 
I don't know anything about music. In my line you don't have to. --
Elvis Presley


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 13:14:57 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 03:14:57 +1000
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
In-Reply-To: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082710143a5c1d53@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:06:06 GMT, Dan Perl <dperl at rogers.com> wrote:
> Here is a python feature that I would like: to be able to import modules
> from an archive like the jar files in Java.  Maybe a regular tar file?
> Maybe a python specific file type, let's call it a 'par' file?

Or a zip file, perhaps? See PEP-0273, which was implemented in Python 2.3.

(Hm. 273 isn't up-to-date. This is bad :-(


From mjackson at alumni.caltech.edu  Thu Aug 19 14:19:08 2004
From: mjackson at alumni.caltech.edu (Mark Jackson)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 18:19:08 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <mailman.1937.1092903657.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4124d4a4$1@nntp0.pdx.net> <ob5Vc.4397$Jn5.1001@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <cg2qus$54u$1@news.wrc.xerox.com>

"Paul McGuire" <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> writes:
> "Scott David Daniels" <Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org> wrote in message
> news:4124d4a4$1 at nntp0.pdx.net...
> > Mike Brenner wrote:
> >
> > > I was born about 10,000 years ago and I used to
> > > program computers made of human beings who
> > > were aligned in tiers. The bottom tier counted
> > > the grains in the baskets. The next tier
> > > counted the baskets in the barn, then the
> > > number of brans in each country.
> > >
> > Don't laugh.  I met a woman roughly my age (53 now)
> > whose mother was a programmer at los Alamos (or was
> > it Trinity?) -- she programmed rooms of people
> > running mechanical calculators (calculate this, if
> > a > b, pass your results right, otherwise, ...)
> >
> > Scott David Daniels
> > Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org
> 
> This technique is also described in Neal Stephenson's book "Cryptonomicon".

Must have been Los Alamos (IIRC "Trinity" was just the code name for
the site of the first bomb test).  If so, the replacement of the
mechanical calculator array by IBM unit record devices (which also were
"programmed" the same way) is mentioned in /"Surely You're Joking, Mr.
Feynman!"/, which also describes what is most likely the first
documented case of computer addiction.  Here's the excerpt I posted to
comp.risks in 1987:

Anyway, we decided that the big problem -- which was to figure out
exactly what happened during the bomb's implosion, so you can figure
out exactly how much energy was released and so on -- required much
more calculating than we were capable of.  A clever fellow by the name
of Stanley Frankel realized that it could possibly be done on IBM
machines.  The IBM company had machines for business purposes, adding
machines called tabulators for listing sums, and a multiplier that you
put cards in and it would take two numbers from a card and multiply
them.  There were also collators and sorters and so on.

So Frankel figured out a nice program.  If we got enough of these
machines in a room, we could take the cards and put them through a
cycle.  Everybody who does numerical calculations now knows exactly
what I I'm talking about, but this was kind of a new thing then -- mass
production with machines.  We had done things like this on adding
machines.  Usually you go one step across, doing everything yourself.
But this was different -- where you go first to the adder, then to the
multiplier, then to the adder, and so on.  So Frankel designed this
system and ordered the machines from the IBM company, because we
realized it was a good way of solving our problems.

. . . .

Well, Mr. Frankel, who started this program, began to suffer from the
computer disease that anybody who works with computers now knows
about.  It's a very serious disease and it interferes completely with
the work.  The trouble with computers is you /play/ with them.  They
are so wonderful.  You have these switches -- if it's an even number
you do this, if it's an odd number you do that -- and pretty soon you
can do more and more elaborate things if you are clever enough, on one
machine.

After a while the whole system broke down.  Frankel wasn't paying any
attention; he wasn't supervising anybody.  The system was going very,
very slowly -- while he was sitting in a room figuring out how to make
one tabulator automatically print arc-tangent X, and then it would
start and it would print columns and then /bitsi, bitsi, bitsi/, and
calculate the arc-tangent automatically by integrating as it went along
and make a whole table in one operation.

Absolutely useless.  We /had/ tables of arc-tangents.  But if you've
ever worked with computers, you understand the disease -- the /delight/
in being able to see how much you can do.  But he got the disease for
the first time, the poor fellow who invented the thing.

I was asked to stop working on the stuff I was doing in my group and go
down and take over the IBM group, and I tried to avoid the disease.
. . . .

-- 
Mark Jackson - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
	Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it
	is the merger of state and corporate power.
				- Benito Mussolini




From beliavsky at aol.com  Fri Aug 13 10:15:14 2004
From: beliavsky at aol.com (beliavsky at aol.com)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 07:15:14 -0700
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
Message-ID: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>

One of the most commmon reasons programmers cite for not trying Python
is that indentation determines the program flow -- they think its
weird. I think programmers who actually try Python adapt quickly and
do not find the indentation rules to be a problem.

I wonder if there is a way to remove this initial barrier. Could an
alternate source form be defined, so that there are matching if-endif
and for-next constructs instead of significant indentation? The
alternate source form and the current form would result in exactly the
same .pyc file.

I'm not saying that Python's use of indentation is bad, just that it
stops many programmers from trying it.


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Sat Aug 14 01:56:30 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 01:56:30 -0400
Subject: Flython
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1644.1092461737.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <slrnchq8lg.q3d.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
	<mailman.1644.1092461737.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408140153500.21775-100000@ccc2.wpi.edu>

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Terry Reedy wrote:

> Knowing nothing about Flash bytecode, but knowing a bit about other Python
> to X projects, I wonder whether it might be more immediately feasible to
> either translate Python bytecode or generate Flash bytecode with an AST
> tree walker.

We'll soon find out ;)

(Unfortunately, AST trees don't match up exactly with Python grammar, so 
I'm having to learn the format by trial-and-error.  Not much fun.  Is 
there documentation on the AST forms anywhere?)



From BruceWhoHKL at gawab.com  Thu Aug 19 21:53:19 2004
From: BruceWhoHKL at gawab.com (BruceKL WhoH)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:53:19 +0800
Subject: ANN: pyxe
Message-ID: <20040820015229.E7E191E4003@bag.python.org>

Gerson Kurz:

	Can pyxe build a Python script with GUI(wxPython/tk) into a binary?
    Can pyxe build binaries for Linux?

======= 2004-08-19 19:50:26 Gerson Kurz wrote: =======

>pyxe is a small executable that will run python scripts on a machine
>that doesn't have Python installed. Example: You have the following
>hello.py:
>
>def main():
>    print "Hello, World"
>
>You can create a binary distribution using 
>
>pyxe /build hello
>
>This will create a directory ./hello which contains all you need. Copy
>all files to a host system and run the app using
>
>pyxe hello
>
>That's it. Note that your app must define a 
>
>def main():
>
>which is the main procedure to start from pyxe. There is one known
>restriction, sys.argv[] doesn't get properly setup in pyxe
>environment. You can fix this yourself: 
>
>import sys
>try:
>    import cfrompy
>    sys.argv = cfrompy.GetSysArgv()
>except ImportError:
>    assert sys.argv
>
>Easy, eh? Requirements
>
>- On the developer machine, you must have python23 installed.
>- On the target machine, no requirements.
>- Tested on Windows NT and Windows 2000. You are on your own with
>other systems (such as XP, 03 etc.)
>
>pyxe is free for any purpose whatsoever. 
>
>Download: 
>http://p-nand-q.com/python/pyxe.zip
>
>includes the full sourcecode and a sample app in Python which actually
>is the "SimpleHTTPServer" webserver ;) Enjoy
>
>Homepage = this mail in fancy tags: 
>http://p-nand-q.com/python/pyxe.html
>
>-- 
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
			

????????BruceKL WhoH
????????BruceWhoHKL at gawab.com
??????????2004-08-20


From Moiz.Golawala at ge.com  Mon Aug 30 10:25:28 2004
From: Moiz.Golawala at ge.com (Golawala, Moiz M (GE Infrastructure))
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:25:28 -0400
Subject: Get Parent path value (bad design) Help
Message-ID: <CE90A4CF2E5E9C4890AE5D9D8A5EFAE301189734@CINMLVEM10.e2k.ad.ge.com>

Hi all, 

What I am trying to do is write some generic code where I can get the path of the parent directory. for example if current working directory is 'Z:\\dirA\\Parent\\Child'

I want to get a string which up like 'Z:\\dirA\\Parent'
Then I do a sys.path.append('Z:\\dirA\\Parent')

The code I have written below does all this.. but I have a feeling there is a better way to do this.. Please can someone help me.

import os
import sys
pathname = os.getcwd()
pathString = ''
pathList = pathname.split("\\")

pathList.pop()  # removes the child 
lastItem = pathList.pop() #remove to the parent, will be added back later.
counter = 0
while counter != len(pathList):  #build up the path with items in the list
    pathString = pathString + pathList[counter] + "\\\\"
    counter +=1
pathString = pathString + lastItem #add parent back to the built up path
sys.path.append(pathString) #append the path back to sys.path


Thanks,
Moiz Golawala



From http  Wed Aug 18 17:58:11 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 14:58:11 -0700
Subject: Embedding Python in Python
References: <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
	<7xu0v0l2be.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<cg09ne$ma7$1@fred.mathworks.com>
	<7x3c2kkzn8.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<cg0bjf$78b$1@fred.mathworks.com>
Message-ID: <7x7jrwt8gc.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

JCM <joshway_without_spam at myway.com> writes:
> >> need to be aggressive, but I believe it's possible.  For example,
> >> disallow exec statements, the identifier "eval", any identifier of
> >> __this__ form, import statements, etc.  This is overly restrictive,
> >> but it will provide security.
> > Hint: 
> >   e = vars()['__builtins__'].eval
> >   print e('2+2')
> 
> I don't think it's as difficult as you think.  Your snippet of code
> would be rejected by the rules I suggested.  You'd also want to
> prohibit other builtins like compile, execfile, input, reload, vars, etc.

I don't see how.  Your rules were to disallow:

  1) exec statements.  My example doesn't use it.

  2) eval identifier.  My example uses eval as an attribute and not an
     identifier.  You can eliminate the use of eval as an attribute with
       e = getattr(vars()('__builtins__'), 'ev'+'al').
     Now not even the string 'eval' appears in one piece.
  3) identifiers like __this__.  My example doesn't use any.  It
     uses a constant string of that form, not an identifier.  The
     string could be computed instead, like the eval example above.
  4) import statements.  My example doesn't use them.

Conclusion, my example gets past your suggested rules.  I also didn't
use compile, execfile, input, or reload.  I did use vars but there are
probably other ways to do the same thing.  You can't take something
full of holes and start plugging holes until you think you found them
all.  You have to start with something that has no holes.  The Python
crowd has been through this many times already; do some searches for
rexec/Bastion security.


From mksql at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 10 12:16:13 2004
From: mksql at yahoo.com (Matt)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 09:16:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Secure storage for passwords for admin scripts?
In-Reply-To: <200408101022.40366.python@elehack.net>
Message-ID: <20040810161613.31592.qmail@web40606.mail.yahoo.com>

The tricky part here is that some of the scripts need
to authenticate against multiple NT domains. I think
the scheduler service will only provide a connection
to a single domain.

Additionally, I need to authenticate against MS SQL
Servers, using native logins, not NT logins.


--- Michael Ekstrand <python at elehack.net> wrote:

> I believe the Windows task scheduler is capable of
> running a task as a 
> given user, in which case the script need not worry
> about the password, 
> the scheduler will store it and execute the script.
> 
> I know this is the case in Win Server 2k3, it seems
> like it'd probably 
> be present in 2k as well.



		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


From tim.peters at gmail.com  Sun Aug 15 03:13:58 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 03:13:58 -0400
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
In-Reply-To: <972ec5bd.0408142203.5a8d5d04@posting.google.com>
References: <972ec5bd.0408141032.385fe115@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1660.1092515096.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<972ec5bd.0408142203.5a8d5d04@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1f7befae040815001315fc17c1@mail.gmail.com>

[Tim Peters]
>> If you want a concept of yielding without delivering a value, that's
>> simply not a use case Python's generators intended to address.  If
>> you wish, you can adhere to a *convention* that "yield None"
>> (or "yield False", or "yield 42", ...) means "I'm not really delivering a
>> value".

[Timothy Fitz]
> It's not a use case, but why not?

In the years generators were discussed before they were implemented,
nobody asked for that.

> And should it be?

Not by my lights, no.

> I know generators are semi-coroutines, but the fact is that their
> useage outside of value generation is just as useful and should be
> adressed as such.  I do not see how accepting a plain yield would
> break anything at all.

The vast majority of generator applications (as you said
before,"generators are used almost exclusively for generation of lists
just-in-time", so you already know this) have no use for that; so, for
the vast majority of generator applications, allowing it anyway would
offer nothing of value, but would reduce the quality of compile-time
error-checking.

> I have read the PEP, twice, and I don't see why it -wasn't- addressed.

If someone asked for a thing, it got into the PEP.  Nobody wanted it.

> Seems to me to be a fairly large arbitrary decision.

For general coroutines it would have been.  For Simple Generators (the
PEP's title) I think it was the right decision -- "simple" isn't
consistent with piling on gimmicks.

If you want to change it, write a new PEP.


From johnfkeeling at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  2 07:30:44 2004
From: johnfkeeling at yahoo.com (John Keeling)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 04:30:44 -0700
Subject: Timing Difference: insert vs. append & reverse
Message-ID: <35b736b9.0408020330.53b24ed3@posting.google.com>

Dear all,
I tried the test program below. My interest is to examine timing
differences between insert vs. append & reverse for a list. My results
on my XP Python 2.3.4 are as follows:
time_reverse  0.889999389648
time_insert  15.7750005722
Over multiple runs ... the time taken to insert at the head of a list,
vs. the time taken to append to a list and then reverse it is
typically 16 or 17 times longer.
I would have expected the insert operation to be faster than the
combined append & reverse operations. Is this behaviour surprising, or
is there a good reason why there is this large performance difference?
Thanks,
John

from	time	import	time

def	test():
	time_reverse	=0.0
	time_insert	=0.0

	for	lindx	in	xrange(100):
		tmp1		=[]
		time_reverse	-=time()
		for	indx	in	xrange(10000):
			tmp1.append(indx)
		tmp1.reverse()
		time_reverse	+=time()

		tmp2		=[]
		time_insert	-=time()
		for	indx	in	xrange(10000):
			tmp2.insert(0, indx)
		time_insert	+=time()
		assert	tmp1==tmp2
	print	"time_reverse ", time_reverse
	print	"time_insert ", time_insert

test()


From gazelle at yin.interaccess.com  Sun Aug  1 08:51:36 2004
From: gazelle at yin.interaccess.com (Kenny McCormack)
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 12:51:36 GMT
Subject: (patch for Bash) try-block and exception
References: <2n27jlFsb5njU1@uni-berlin.de> <2n2bapFs3oqbU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<m3vfg3mrc4.fsf@newsguy.com> <2n3jliFrvv9dU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <ceipdi$ci2$1@yin.interaccess.com>

In article <2n3jliFrvv9dU1 at uni-berlin.de>,
William Park  <opengeometry at yahoo.ca> wrote:
...
>Next feature I'll tackle is list comprehension.  :-)

Are you saying that you don't understand how lists work?
If so, post an item here - I'm sure people will be more than willing to help.



From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 30 15:52:05 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 15:52:05 -0400
Subject: "Content-Length" header
In-Reply-To: <cgvph9$err@odbk17.prod.google.com>
References: <cgvph9$err@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <WeqdncnNAMD6GK7cRVn-ig@powergate.ca>

Justin wrote:

> I have a program that downloads files from the web.  There are
> instances in which a .info() will not return a "Content-length" header
> to me.  Is ther a way to specifically request this header or FORCE it
> to be sent?  I know there is some way to get the file size for these
> files because Internet Explorer is capable of determining the size on a
> cut / paste of the same exact url.

Was this URL one of them?

c:\>python
Python 2.3.4 (#53, May 25 2004, 21:17:02) [MSC v.1200 32 bit (Intel)] on 
win32
 >>> import urllib
 >>> s = 'http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~harnad/Temp/Ariadne-RAE.doc'
 >>> f = urllib.urlopen(s)
 >>> print f.info()
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 19:50:49 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.27 (Unix)  (Red-Hat/Linux) mod_ssl/2.8.12 
OpenSSL/0.9.6b DAV/
1.0.3 PHP/4.3.2 mod_perl/1.26
Last-Modified: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 15:19:42 GMT
ETag: "f10f630-9a800-3ea2ba8e"
Accept-Ranges: bytes
Content-Length: 632832
Connection: close
Content-Type: application/msword


Seems like it works for me.  Maybe you have another URL which doesn't
work for urlopen, but for which IE does actually display a percentage
progress bar?

-Peter


From bradtilley at usa.net  Mon Aug 23 15:56:40 2004
From: bradtilley at usa.net (Brad Tilley)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:56:40 -0400
Subject: Using Python to Disable the new Windows XP Firewall in SP2
Message-ID: <cgdi5p$pgk$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>

I thought some of you might find this of interest. Especially if you use 
Python for Windows sys-admin tasks and you do not want to use the 
built-in "Windows Firewall" that came with service pack 2.

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/rtilley/downloads/win_fw/Windows-Firewall.html


From ialbert at mailblocks.com  Mon Aug  2 10:48:52 2004
From: ialbert at mailblocks.com (Istvan Albert)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 10:48:52 -0400
Subject: Strange timing data for list.pop()
In-Reply-To: <roy-57B296.13170501082004@reader1.panix.com>
References: <roy-57B296.13170501082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <cMedndDr79XOyZPcRVn-gA@giganews.com>

Roy Smith wrote:


> anybody have any clue what might be causing this behavior?

Bad experimental setup.

Use the timeit module. Average your measurements.








From npat at efault.net  Fri Aug 13 17:14:55 2004
From: npat at efault.net (Nick Patavalis)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 21:14:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1628.1092425051.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnchq8ie.am7.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<mailman.1633.1092428550.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnchqbqf.am7.npat@gray.efault.net>

On 2004-08-13, kosh <kosh at aesaeion.com> wrote:
>
> I don't want my cell phone to run python, java, ruby, c# etc etc. I
> want it to just be a telephone and do that job well.
>

I understand. You want a nice analog cell-phone, with a large rotary
dial, and very long cord. Sorry but resistors, capacitors, and diodes
can only go that far. For everything else you need large clusters of
transistors (integrated-ccircuits they are called by some) and a lot
of them need (God forbid!) "software".

/npat

P.S. I *have* to sign with this :)

--
I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my
telephone.  My wish has come true.  I no longer know how to use my
telephone.
  -- Bjarne Stroustrup


From gry at ll.mit.edu  Mon Aug  9 09:59:47 2004
From: gry at ll.mit.edu (george young)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 06:59:47 -0700
Subject: Class optimization at runtime
References: <m2hdrl2ch5.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
	<10gvtipb5t0hl44@corp.supernews.com>
	<cep13o$9f5$00$1@news.t-online.com>
	<m2n01bywre.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
Message-ID: <78b6a744.0408090559.65560369@posting.google.com>

Dan Sommers <me at privacy.net> wrote in message news:<m2n01bywre.fsf at unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>...
> On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 23:46:32 +0200,
> Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:
> 
> > Jeff Shannon wrote:
> >> Or even better:
> >> 
> >> if option:
> >> import WithOption as FooModule
> >> else:
> >> import WithoutOption as FooModule
> >> 
> >> x = FooModule.Foo( )
> >> 
> >> (I twitch every time I see 'from X import *' ...)
> 
> Yep, you're right.  I always forget about the "as" option.
> 
> > That, and mixed-case module names -- and no, I'm not advertising
> > all-uppercase here...
> 
> My mistake again.  The names I chose were for illustrative and
> explicative purposes only; nothing else was (meant to be) implied.
> 
> For the record, then, it would look like this:
> 
>     if option:
>         import optionon as optionmodule
>     else:
>         import optionoff as optionmodule
> 
>     x = optionmodule.Foo( )
> 
> (assuming we can live with an Initialcaps class name).
> 
> It also now strikes me that a package might be appropriate here:  Let
> __init__.py sort things out and set up the package's namespace
> accordingly; then the rest of the program would just use the package
> obliviously.  But:
> 
>     - __init__.py has to have access to the option variable (solutions
>        abound; good solutions are less plentiful and vary over time and
>        space);
> 
>     - given (a) my recent track record for getting the details correct
>         and (b) my lack of experience with the package system, I humbly
>         leave the rest of such a solution to the interested reader.

How about the pygtk style "require":
    import pygtk
    pygtk.require('2.0')
    import gtk # uses state set by the "require" call.

This always seems a clean interface to me.  Much safer and cleaner than
something peeking at a global (or environment) variable.


From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Thu Aug 26 15:21:33 2004
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:21:33 -0700
Subject: What GCC version had <stdint.h> defined?
Message-ID: <412e39d1$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

I am trying to figure out how to get 2.4a2 to build a python
extension.  GCC 2.2.95 does not have a stdint.h, but 3.2.3 does.
These two are the only gcc versions I have on my box.

Does anyone know which version of GCC introduced stdint.h (and
thereby uintptr_t and intptr_t)?  I'd like to get the conditionals
right.

-Scott David Daniels
Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Sun Aug 22 21:02:13 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 01:02:13 GMT
Subject: Parsing C header files with python
References: <873c2gzftf.fsf@emit.demon.co.uk>
	<XwNVc.8118$Jn5.3133@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<87wtzrnj86.fsf@emit.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <pmbWc.9081$Jn5.3885@fe1.texas.rr.com>

"Ian McConnell" <ian at emit.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:87wtzrnj86.fsf at emit.demon.co.uk...
> "Paul McGuire" <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> writes:
>
<snip>
>
> Thanks. Your example with pyparsing was just what I was looking for. It
also
> copes very nicely with newlines and spacing in the header file.
>
Ian -

It is just at this kind of one-off parsing job that I think pyparsing really
shines.  I am sure that you could have accomplished this with regexp's, but
a) it would have taken at least a bit longer
b) it would have required more whitespace handline (such as function decls
that span linebreaks)
c) it would have been trickier to add other unanticipated changes (support
for other arg data types (such as char, long), embedded comments, etc.)

BTW, all it takes to make this grammar comment-immune is to add the
following statement before calling scanString():

functionCall.ignore( cStyleComment )

cStyleComment is predefined in the pyparsing module to recognize /* ... */
comments.  Adding this will properly handle (i.e., skip over) definitions
like:

/*
int commentedOutFunc(float arg1, float arg2);
*/

Try that with regexp's!

-- Paul




From Kevin.Smith at sas.com  Mon Aug 23 08:49:37 2004
From: Kevin.Smith at sas.com (Kevin Smith)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 12:49:37 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <cg69t1$jo@odak26.prod.google.com> 
	<_cyVc.48884$wM.42592@twister.tampabay.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20040823085016684-0400@braeburn.themorgue.org>

C4 C4 F


From rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm  Mon Aug 23 12:31:39 2004
From: rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm (Roel Schroeven)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:31:39 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2209.1093277857.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<mailman.2209.1093277857.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <LZoWc.223249$pg.10927216@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

Denis S. Otkidach wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:35:53 GMT
> Roel Schroeven <rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Roel Schroeven wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I spotted some errors in your list, added new entries, and made a 
>>>histogram: http://roelschroeven.net/pythonages/
> 
> 
> I'm 29
> 

Update results still at http://roelschroeven.net/pythonages/

-- 
"Codito ergo sum"
Roel Schroeven


From mwh at python.net  Sat Aug  7 10:21:35 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 14:21:35 GMT
Subject: Paul Graham on Python hackers
References: <cf1p1f$ke0@odak26.prod.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.07.10.51.16.393303@teliko.net>
Message-ID: <m38ycrqb9t.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Zoltan Sekeres <zoltan at teliko.net> writes:

> On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 22:23:59 -0700, ellisjb wrote:
> > (In all seriousness I think python and java have a lot more in common than
> > python and perl.)
> 
> This a flamebait, right? 

I don't think so.  I've noticed that since I learnt Python, it is now
much more frequently compared to Java than Perl, and this is a change.

> Otherwise I would be interested in the features which make Python
> similar to Java (shudder).

I think it's at least as much social as technical.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  First time I've gotten a programming job that required a drug
  test.  I was worried they were going to say "you don't have
  enough LSD in your system to do Unix programming".   -- Paul Tomblin
               -- http://home.xnet.com/~raven/Sysadmin/ASR.Quotes.html


From megalomaan at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 26 15:04:25 2004
From: megalomaan at hotmail.com (m0226065)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 21:04:25 +0200
Subject: Looking for a mySQL module
References: <1093546553.242839@seven.kulnet.kuleuven.ac.be>
Message-ID: <1093547060.94055@seven.kulnet.kuleuven.ac.be>

sorry about that
found it
MySQLdb


-- 
____________________________________________________
Johan Potums
Vaartstraat 67
3000 Leuven



"m0226065" <megalomaan at hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:1093546553.242839 at seven.kulnet.kuleuven.ac.be...
> Hello
>
> I'm looking for a mySQL module so I can address my miniserver
> (http://miniserver.sourceforge.net). I looked on google, but I'm not sure
> I'm getting what I want
>
> thx
>
> -- 
> ____________________________________________________
> Johan Potums
> Vaartstraat 67
> 3000 Leuven
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.737 / Virus Database: 491 - Release Date: 11/08/2004
>
>


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.737 / Virus Database: 491 - Release Date: 11/08/2004




From ian at cottee.org  Wed Aug 25 22:34:59 2004
From: ian at cottee.org (Ian J Cottee)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:34:59 +0900
Subject: Proposal for removing self
In-Reply-To: <412D14FC.BDF40BAD@alcyone.com>
References: <mailman.2387.1093471726.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<412D14FC.BDF40BAD@alcyone.com>
Message-ID: <fruvv1-m3k.ln1@suse.zobbo.org>

Erik Max Francis wrote:

> Furthermore, I believe there's been some talk as a prefixed dot being
> reserved for possible use in a "with" control structure at some point in
> the future.  So using it to abbreviate self is definitely out. 
> (Besides, this proposal is not new.)

Which means the op would be able to do

	with self
		.firstname = 'Brian'
		.surname = 'Trubshaw'
		.occupation = 'Test Pilot'
		.ovine_experience = 'Unknown'

I guess

Ian


From bulatov at engr.orst.edu  Fri Aug 20 22:49:23 2004
From: bulatov at engr.orst.edu (Yaroslav Bulatov)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 02:49:23 GMT
Subject: Python AI resources
Message-ID: <4126b82f$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>

The list of Python AI/Machine Learning resources has been recently expanded.
http://yaroslav.hopto.org/pubwiki/index.php/ai-python

It's a wiki page, so feel free to add to it

Yaroslav

[ comp.ai is moderated.  To submit, just post and be patient, or if ]
[ that fails mail your article to <comp-ai at moderators.isc.org>, and ]
[ ask your news administrator to fix the problems with your system. ]


From tor.iver.wilhelmsen at broadpark.no  Thu Aug  5 16:33:07 2004
From: tor.iver.wilhelmsen at broadpark.no (Tor Iver Wilhelmsen)
Date: 05 Aug 2004 22:33:07 +0200
Subject: Decorator syntax (was Re: PEP 318 - PyFIT comments)
References: <mailman.1162.1091660561.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnch2rs1.6ei.ressler@cheetah.jpl.nasa.gov>
	<1646998998.20040804190026@MailBlocks.com>
	<mailman.1168.1091667628.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<lN6dnZpvi_ErB4zcRVn-rg@giganews.com>
	<d11dcfba.0408050853.6e0acfa2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <uhdrhxr3w.fsf@broadpark.no>

steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard) writes:

> These are, of course, the standard reasons against introducing new
> keywords, and the same reasons that Python tries not to introduce them
> unnecessarily. Still, I think, for example, the 'yield' generator
> syntax (which was introduced relatively recently) is much clearer than
> doing something strange with punctuation would have been.  I guess I
> just don't see why decorators merit strange punctuation when
> generators didn't...

Also, in the case of Java, keywords actually have been introduced
(strictfp, assert), in the latter case leading to a rewrite of the
"standard" unit test library JUnit which changed a framework method
name (assert() -> assertTrue()).

However, a "foreach" would just pollute (in a sense) as long as it's
very close to for, and it demantically makes sense to "reuse" it
instead (like they do for "class", which both is used in a class
declaration and to access a class object statically). Both strictfp
and assert did new things that didn't match what any other language
feature did.


From ben at benlast.com  Tue Aug 17 09:23:38 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:23:38 +0100
Subject: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xf3'
In-Reply-To: <20040817082127.GA5233@barbucha.martin.net>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPMEAECEAA.ben@benlast.com>

> if i use
> #! /usr/bin/env python
> # -*- coding: UTF-8 -*-
> at the begginnig of my every script, the example above still has to
> be converted -- because of the iso-8859-1 you use in "L?wis"?
Be aware that if you declare the encoding as UTF-8, you should really make
sure that you're using an editor that understands UTF-8; not all the
characters you might type freely (or copy and paste) are the same in UTF8
and Latin-1.  For example, if you inadvertently paste an ellipsis (...),
which is \x85 in Western-Europe Windows into such a file, then you may get
errors, since the ellipsis in Unicode is a different code altogether.

The first "page" of UTF-8 maps exactly to ISO-Latin-1 (ISO-8859-1), but
since you're using a Czech locale, I'd expect you to be using Latin-2, and
for your editors to enter characters as Latin-2.

regards
ben



From wheakorypersonal at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 24 14:55:23 2004
From: wheakorypersonal at yahoo.com (Kory Wheatley)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:55:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Printing date a file
Message-ID: <20040824185523.46724.qmail@web51904.mail.yahoo.com>

In Python how would you print the date in a file, I
have a logging program written in python and for each
new recorded added to the file, I would like to print
the 
date, something like this below:

08/24/2004 or 08-24-2004

--
Kory Wheatley


		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 


From gregor.jan at NOSPAMquick.cz  Wed Aug 11 10:19:08 2004
From: gregor.jan at NOSPAMquick.cz (Jan Gregor)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:19:08 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: jython and java exceptions
References: <slrnch2dqk.1h3.gregor.jan@ins1.opera.com>
	<g74Rc.24553$Z14.7458@news.indigo.ie>
	<cfcs7u$1ajq$1@ns.felk.cvut.cz>
	<4_nSc.24773$Z14.7584@news.indigo.ie>
Message-ID: <cfd9ss$1g8q$1@ns.felk.cvut.cz>

There's result - i put aa on input to force error:

Exc com.sybase.jdbc2.jdbc.SybSQLException: Stored procedure 'aa' not
found. Specify owner.objectname or use sp_help to check whether the
object exists (sp_help may produce lots of output).
 != subclass of java.sql.SQLException!


Problem is that SybSQLException IS subclass of SQLException - verified
by Eclipse IDE (type hierarchy). Similar effects were with jdbc driver
for PostgreSQL.

There's result:
Exc org.postgresql.util.PSQLException: ERROR: syntax error at or near
"aa"
 != subclass of java.sql.SQLException!


Jan



From Florian.Lindner at xgm.de  Sun Aug  1 18:14:01 2004
From: Florian.Lindner at xgm.de (Florian Lindner)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 00:14:01 +0200
Subject: Default encoding
Message-ID: <cejpva$f5g$03$1@news.t-online.com>

Hello,
how can I get the default encoding of a python installation?
Thx,
Florian


From mfuhr at fuhr.org  Fri Aug 13 09:57:57 2004
From: mfuhr at fuhr.org (Michael Fuhr)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 07:57:57 -0600
Subject: Python and Weather.com
References: <6491b0ab.0408121917.5103b770@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <411cc8e5$1_2@omega.dimensional.com>

faizans at gmail.com (Fazer) writes:

> I made a small python script that gives the current weather conditions
> of a city that you give as an argument.

You could also use pymetar.

http://www.schwarzvogel.de/software-pymetar.shtml

-- 
Michael Fuhr
http://www.fuhr.org/~mfuhr/


From bokr at oz.net  Wed Aug 25 06:08:06 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 10:08:06 GMT
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040824200256aff0f0@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.2329.1093405781.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cghoe6$k13$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:26:03 +1000, Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:

>I forgot one other point I meant to add - think about when the body of
>a class gets executed, vs when the body of a function gets executed.
>The former is at compile time, the latter is when the function is
>used.
Actually, the body of the class gets executed after whatever code
just precedes the class def (though with a different environment, with
bindings going into the class dict), but UIAM both of those are compiled
when the combined source is compiled?

if you put the class def inside a function and dis.dis it, you get:

 >>> def foo():
 ...     class C(object):
 ...         __metaclass__ = MC
 ...         def m(self): return 'method m'
 ...     return C
 ...

Above we have *compiled* both foo and the class definition in its body, but we
have executed only the foo *definition*. (Note no complaint here about MC undefined)

 >>> import dis
 >>> dis.dis(foo)
   2           0 LOAD_CONST               1 ('C')
               3 LOAD_GLOBAL              0 (object)
               6 BUILD_TUPLE              1
               9 LOAD_CONST               2 (<code object C at 008FDF20, file "<stdin>", line 2>)

              12 MAKE_FUNCTION            0
              15 CALL_FUNCTION            0
              18 BUILD_CLASS
              19 STORE_FAST               0 (C)

   5          22 LOAD_FAST                0 (C)
              25 RETURN_VALUE
              26 LOAD_CONST               0 (None)
              29 RETURN_VALUE

Just to show when the class definition finishes:

 >>> def MC(*args): print args; return type(*args)
 ...

Now call foo to make the class *definition* in the body of foo execute (BTW triggering MC):

 >>> Cfoo = foo()
 ('C', (<type 'object'>,), {'m': <function m at 0x00903370>, '__module__': '__main__', '__metacla
 ss__': <function MC at 0x008FD4F0>})

(the printed args tuple above wrapped, obviously)

What we got:
 >>> Cfoo
 <class '__main__.C'>
 >>> Cfoo.m
 <unbound method C.m>
 >>> Cfoo().m
 <bound method C.m of <__main__.C object at 0x00901FD0>>

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 11 18:15:26 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 18:15:26 -0400
Subject: PEP-0318
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1518.1092247596.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <41122FC2.1080608@interlink.com.au><mailman.1251.1091764482.5135.python-list@python.org><4114152f@nntp.zianet.com>	<aIOdnRybBucMsIncRVn-gA@comcast.com><4116bc20$1@nntp.zianet.com><mailman.1369.1092015284.5135.python-list@python.org><c8neh0t41km1h79ufo4vkrhh78dt27vlok@4ax.com><6NCdncg4ssq28orcRVn-uQ@powergate.ca><fkteh0pvalomnrm7tk8ial4sgjaj9jjkj8@4ax.com>	<411a5cee$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<mailman.1518.1092247596.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <411a9a7f$1@nntp.zianet.com>

Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> calling a function with an argument?  that's a pretty common
> operation, if you're asking me

Indeed it is. And that fact bears on this conversion how?

   -- Mark


From davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu  Tue Aug 17 18:24:15 2004
From: davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu (David Pokorny)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:24:15 -0700
Subject: Why is SETUP_FINALLY uninterruptable[sic]?
Message-ID: <2JmdnSiV4NZzGL_cRVn-pg@lmi.net>

Whilst swimming through Python/ceval.c, I came upon the following:

PyEval_EvalFrame(...) {
...
<main interpreter loop>
...
    if (--_Py_Ticker < 0) {
        if (*next_instr == SETUP_FINALLY) {
                                    /* Make the last opcode before
                                       a try: finally: block
uninterruptable. */
               goto fast_next_opcode;
        }
        _Py_Ticker = _Py_CheckInterval;
        tstate->tick_counter++;
...     <do "occasional" things like let other threads run, ... occurs every
sys.getcheckinterval() bytecodes>
}

I've been trying to find a good reason _why_ the main loop shouldn't perform
the check at the usual time in the (highly rare)
situation where SETUP_FINALLY occurs as the last instruction before a check.
So far, I've managed to confuse myself even further and
come up with another stumper: what makes SETUP_FINALLY more special than
SETUP_LOOP and SETUP_EXCEPT?

The best answer I can think of is this: if another thread ran in between the
SETUP_FINALLY and the next first instruction of the
try block, then this other thread might step on some globals that
SETUP_FINALLY uses to communicate to the try block. As far as I can tell, no
such communication takes place and this isn't the reason.

Could a Python guru please enlighten me?

David




From olivier.parisy at free.fr  Mon Aug  9 09:30:40 2004
From: olivier.parisy at free.fr (Olivier Parisy)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 15:30:40 +0200
Subject: Exceptions as a Control Structure
In-Reply-To: <roy-D4B2EE.09162809082004@reader1.panix.com>
References: <411775aa$0$17867$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<roy-D4B2EE.09162809082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <41177c78$0$17859$626a14ce@news.free.fr>

Roy Smith wrote:

> Lots of things you do in C++ are frowned upon in Python.  Lots of things 
> you do in Python are frowned upon in C++.

This is something I need to learn. I suppose there's not much written
information on this informal topic, and that I'll have to read some
source code... Any advice on cleanly written projects from that point
of view ?

> Specifically, exceptions in C++ are generally considered fairly 
> heavy-weight, but not so in Python.  Here's another common python idiom 
> that uses exceptions in a way which would probably horrify most C++ 
> people:
> 
> for key in sequence:
>    try:
>       foo = dictionary [key]
>    except KeyError
>       foo = "not found"
> 
> instead of:
> 
> for key in sequence:
>    if dictionary.has_key (key):
>       foo = dictionary [key]
>    else
>       foo = "not found"

Hum, I stumbled on this FAQ a short time after I posted here, indeed :-)

Regards,
Olivier.



From firemoth at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 00:37:20 2004
From: firemoth at gmail.com (Timothy Fitz)
Date: 15 Aug 2004 21:37:20 -0700
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
References: <mailman.1661.1092519005.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7x7js1i887.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<slrnchug4m.n0d.npat@gray.efault.net> <zn4w2y3g.fsf@telus.net>
Message-ID: <972ec5bd.0408152037.c50bcee@posting.google.com>

Lenard Lindstrom <len-1 at telus.net> wrote in message news:<zn4w2y3g.fsf at telus.net>...
> Nick Patavalis <npat at efault.net> writes:
> 
> > On 2004-08-14, Paul Rubin <> wrote:
> > >
> > > You can't yield across multiple levels of function calls.  That's why
> > > they're called "simple generators" instead of just "generators".
> > >
> > 
> > For me it would be *tremendously* usefull if one could yield across
> > multiple levels of function calls. If this was supported, then most
> > uses of O/S treads could be replaced by generators.
> > 
> > Does anyone know if such a feature is planned?
> > 
> Having followed the development of Prothon it is my understanding that
> such a thing is not possible in CPython for two reasons. The first is
> that the yield statement itself defines a function declaration as a
> generator. Without a specific "gen" declarator keyword as in Prothon:
> 
> gen evens(n):    # This is a generator
>     for i in n:  # "for i in range(n)" in Python
>         doubleit(i)
> 
> def doubleit(i)  # This is a helper that yields
>     yield(2 * x) # "yield 2 * x"
> 
> for i in evens(5):
>     print(i)     # "print i"
> 
> the yield does not know how many function calls up it must go to return
> a value. In CPython it simply saves one frame, that of the current function
> call. The second reason is a python function call in CPython involves an
> actual recursive C call of the interpreter. So to have a yield span more
> than one python function would require saving and restoring part of the
> actual C stack - coroutines at the C level - or a rewrite of the interpreter
> to not make the recursive C calls as in Stackless Python.
> 
> Lenard Lindstrom
> <len-l at telus.net>

I disagree, it seems to me I could make a pure python based
implementation with some funky state handling classes and exceptions.
Granted, it wouldn't look nice (all your 'locals' would be in an
object, and you'd have to call like tyield())


From Jared.Cohen at noaa.gov  Fri Aug 20 10:04:30 2004
From: Jared.Cohen at noaa.gov (Jared Cohen)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:04:30 -0400
Subject: [Tkinter-discuss] Please help -- Tkinter Scale widget with
 DoubleVar is acting weird
Message-ID: <412604EE.6070802@noaa.gov>

Thanks to both of you for your help. I already do have mechanisms in 
place that prevent the callback from actually doing anything if the 
variable has not really been changed. But the problem with that method 
(and with both of your suggestions) is that even if the callback doesn't 
do anything, it is still getting invoked when it shouldn't be. I was 
simply trying to figure out WHY, because I felt that it would be more 
elegant to completely stop the callback from getting invoked 
incorrectly, than to allow it to be invoked and then have it return 
without doing anything. But if that's not feasible, then I'll just have 
to do it the other way :-)
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From lconrad at laymusic.org  Fri Aug  6 16:03:37 2004
From: lconrad at laymusic.org (Laura Conrad)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 16:03:37 -0400
Subject: Killing children
References: <87smb0w4ln.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
	<mailman.1297.1091814690.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87d624vxt2.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>

>>>>> "Stefan" == Stefan Eischet <stefan at eischet.com> writes:

    Stefan> Hi Laura,
    Stefan> what a terrible subject line! ;-)

I used to think that when I first started using UNIX in the mid 80's.
But I am now a hardened child-killer.

    Stefan> I sometimes use os.system with pskill from
    Stefan> http://www.sysinternals.com/ntw2k/freeware/pskill.shtml -
    Stefan> this should do what you want.

I don't see that it really saves me much over using the cygwin kill
command.

    Stefan> I do get my pid from some spawn-variant, IIRC. This should
    Stefan> be more reliable than killing by name or parsing ps output
    Stefan> (since you might kill the wrong process if there are
    Stefan> multiple processes with the same name).

Yes, that's one of the things I'm worried about.

    Stefan> What exactly doesn't work with your spawning? Could you
    Stefan> post the spawn call you're using?

I'm attaching the test program.  With the commented out call to spawn
loop.py, it seems to work fine, both on linux and on cygwin.  When I
call the actual program, which reads and writes the serial port and
writes into a postgresql database, as well as to stdout, it doesn't
look like it's invoking the program at all on cygwin.  (loop.py just
writes the date to sdout every 5 seconds.)

The process it spawns doesn't appear on the ps, and no data gets put
in the database or written to stdout.  When it tries to kill the
process it's spawned, I get an error message: "kill 2348: Operation not
permitted", which is different from the message I get if I just kill a
process that doesn't exist, so something is happening, but it isn't
what I want.

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-- 
Laura (mailto:lconrad at laymusic.org , http://www.laymusic.org/ )
(617) 661-8097	fax: (501) 641-5011
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139



From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Sun Aug  8 00:02:14 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay Brar)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 14:02:14 +1000
Subject: session management
Message-ID: <4115A5C6.6010206@mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!
I am trying to implement session management similar to what PHP does by 
having a temp file with session information and storing the 
filename(which is just a random string) as a cookie on the client side.
if the client logs out, i can destroy the file and the cookie but my 
question is what happens when the client does not log out? what if he 
simply leaves the website? i can put a timer on the cookie, but how do i 
cleanup the temp files.
also, is there some python package that already does this and does not 
require any configuration on the webserver (i dont have access to config 
the webserver).
and how secure would such a mechanism be? the user enters their username 
and password and i compare the hash of both the username and password 
with values stored in an encrypted file. if the comparison is successful 
i create the session. is this a reasonably secure scheme? does anyone 
see any problems with this

thanks

cheers

-- 
Ajay Brar
CS Honours 2004
Smart Internet Technology Research Group

http://www.it.usyd.edu.au/~abrar1



From mcfletch at rogers.com  Tue Aug 10 00:30:06 2004
From: mcfletch at rogers.com (Mike C. Fletcher)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 00:30:06 -0400
Subject: Popular Python projects with lots of pure Python code
In-Reply-To: <4117F439.40805@ocf.berkeley.edu>
References: <4117F439.40805@ocf.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <41184F4E.4060502@rogers.com>

Brett C. wrote:
...

> So I am trying to come up with a list of projects I can use to get my 
> stats from.  the stdlib is a no-brainer.  Also plan to use Docutils. 
> But beyond those most of the big Python projects I can think of have a 
> ton of C code which is of no use to me.  I don't need to be able to 
> run it, just going to be compiling to .py files.
>
> Any suggestions?

First that spring to mind:

    * Zope3 (198,000 lines of Python code in the checkout I'm counting)
    * Twisted (129,000 lines of code in the version I have, tends toward
      very idiomatic usage due to the asynchronous nature, so be aware
      of potential skew in the results)
    * Mailman (don't have it installed to check)
    * Boa Constructor (63,000 lines, with some of that auto-generated IIRC)
    * PythonCard (52,000 lines)
    * PySNMP (14,000 lines)

And from my own projects:

    * OpenGLContext with the (included) vrml and (separate) TTFQuery
      dependencies (34,000 lines of Python code).
    * PyTable including the BasicProperty and BasicTypes dependencies
      (14,000 lines of Python code), but this one probably falls down on
      the "popular" grounds

Some of the other web frameworks may have reached the 100,000+ range, 
but I don't have them installed to check.  I would guess that some of 
the other GUI environments might be useful, e.g. Pythonwin (not 
including the win32 framework stuff) is 17,000 lines.  Other GUI 
environments are going to be larger I'd guess, but they'll also 
potentially be more of a mix of C and Python.

HTH,
Mike

________________________________________________
  Mike C. Fletcher
  Designer, VR Plumber, Coder
  http://www.vrplumber.com
  http://blog.vrplumber.com



From roy at panix.com  Tue Aug 17 12:23:51 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 12:23:51 -0400
Subject: Problem with floating point precision
References: <ec6dce8b.0408170538.1f0211d2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <roy-309CF6.12235117082004@reader1.panix.com>

j_mckitrick at bigfoot.com (j_mckitrick) wrote:

> I checked the docs, but found nothing about floating point issues.
> 
> I am working on an app that deals with currency values, and only does
> addition and subtraction (no division).  But I am starting to see
> values that should be the same failing a compare!  What is the
> workaround or correct way to compare 2 floats?

A full analysis of floating point math would fill a book.  The details 
depend greatly on the underlying FP hardware in your system, although 
these days it's pretty hard to find a machine which doesn't use IEEE 754 
standard math, so you might start by googling for "ieee 754".

Python 2.4 will have a new Decimal numeric type, which was invented to 
resolve many of the problems that happen when trying to use floats for 
currency calculations.  Take a look at 
http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0327.html for more information.

There is an alpha version of 2.4 that was released recently; you might 
want to download that and start playing around with the Decimal type to 
see if that solves your problem.  I'm sure other people here could give 
a better estimate of when there will be a production release of 2.4, but 
my guess is that it's a few months away.


From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Sat Aug  7 19:59:57 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 19:59:57 -0400
Subject: Image manipulation library under a GPL-compatible license?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1343.1091921371.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <2nl3suF1vntdU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<mailman.1343.1091921371.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2nl8k3F1vioiU1@uni-berlin.de>

Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> sorry, but you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking
> about.  PIL uses the original Python license, about which FSF
> has the following to say:  <snip>

Sorry, you're right. For some reason, I got "the name of Secret Labs AB 
or the author not be used in advertising or publicity pertaining to 
distribution of the software without specific, written prior permission" 
with the obnoxious BSD advertising clause. Please disregard anything 
else I say, because I've probably done way too litle research.


From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Aug  6 04:14:01 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 10:14:01 +0200
Subject: PEP 263 status check
In-Reply-To: <ceva4g$5k0$1@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com> <4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de>
	<10h5hgvpafm8a64@news.supernews.com>
	<ceva4g$5k0$1@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
Message-ID: <41133dc8$0$24849$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

Vincent Wehren wrote:
> Here's another thought: the company I work for uses (embedded) Python as
> scripting language
> for their report writer (among other things). Users can add little scripts
> to their document templates which are used for printing database data. This
> means, there are literally hundreds of little Python scripts embeddeded
> within the document templates, which themselves are stored in whatever
> database is used as the backend. In such a case, "scan and update" when
> upgrading gets a little more complicated ;)

At the same time, it might get also more simple. If the user interface 
to edit these scripts is encoding-aware, and/or the database to store
them in is encoding-aware, an automated tool would not need to guess
what the encoding in the source is.

> | My specific question there was how the code handles the
> | combination of UTF-8 as the encoding and a non-ascii
> | character in an 8-bit string literal. Is this an error? The
> | PEP does not say so. If it isn't, what encoding will
> | it use to translate from unicode back to an 8-bit
> | encoding?
> 
> Isn't this covered by:
> 
>        "Embedding of differently encoded data is not allowed and will
>        result in a decoding error during compilation of the Python
>        source code."

No. It is perfectly legal to have non-ASCII data in 8-bit string
literals (aka byte string literals, aka <type 'str'>). Of course,
these non-ASCII data also need to be encoded in UTF-8. Whether UTF-8
is an 8-bit encoding, I don't know - it is more precisely described
as a multibyte encoding. At execution time, the byte string literals
then have the source encoding again, i.e. UTF-8.

Regards,
Martin


From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 12 10:46:27 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 10:46:27 -0400
Subject: decorator with keyword
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121024260.3440-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
References: <cffcir$q5p$02$1@news.t-online.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121024260.3440-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <ArGdnWxZ4Z5ZH4bcRVn-vA@powergate.ca>

Christopher T King wrote:

[about the "decorate:" syntax]
> The PythonDecorators wiki doesn't say Guido has specifically shot this 
> style down, so it may yet have a chance.

The python-dev mailing list doesn't appear to have discussed this one
yet, but given that much of the, uh, "chatter" that I detect there
is about minor tweaking of the @pie syntax, I fear they are so not
likely to pay much attention to new syntaxes and it might be too
late to get much support for it amongst the core folks.  (Guido
referred to @pie as "the humble @decorator" yesterday...)

-Peter


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Tue Aug  3 13:50:42 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:50:42 -0500
Subject: how to do proper subclassing?
References: <mailman.1095.1091552353.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4Nydna8aCobvTZLcRVn-vw@comcast.com>

I think you want to have permfooation actually be
a list.  If you do then permfooation[1:3} will in
fact return a list [3,4].  If the permutation is
actually stored as:

[0 1 2 3 4]
[1 3 4 0 2]

You can get them into lists with:

f=open(inputfile)
lines=f.readlines()
f.close()
l=0
for line in lines:
    if l % 2 == 0: continue # skip first lines
    l+=1
    permfooation=[int(x) for x in line[1:-1].split()]

print permfooation[1:3]

Now you are probably going to want to wrap this into
a class for easier use.

HTH,
Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.


"Jonas Koelker" <jonaskoelker at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1095.1091552353.5135.python-list at python.org...
> Hello there.
>
> I'm new to this list (/me welcomes himself).
>
> anyways, I'm having doubts about how to subclass
> properly. The big picture is that I want to handle
> permutations. As we all know, two popular notation
> forms exist: products of disjoint cycles ("(0 1 3)(2
> 4)") and 2*length matrices with the identity
> permutation as the first line ([0 1 2 3 4] over [1 3 4
> 0 2]). I find the latter more appropriate, since it's
> easy to store as a list (one can skip the first line,
> assuming it's _always_ the identity).
>
> However, I want the permutation to act like a list, in
> all those cases where I don't override the operations.
> For example, assuming permfooation is the above
> permutation [1 3 4 0 2], permfooation[1:3] should
> return [3,4]. How is this done? Do I have to actually
> implement a slice-mechanism in the permutation class?
>
> thanks,
>
> -- Jonas K?lker
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo!
Messenger - all new features - even more fun!  http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com




From bokr at oz.net  Sun Aug  8 19:12:33 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 8 Aug 2004 23:12:33 GMT
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar, but for what exactly?
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<mailman.1344.1091923285.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cf6c11$8va$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 02:00:41 +0200, Tristan Seligmann <mithrandi at mithrandi.za.net> wrote:
[...]
>On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 23:50:47 +0000, Bengt Richter wrote:
>
>The code:
>
>>     @limited_expression_producing_function
>>     @another
>>     def func(): pass
>>=20
>
>is equivalent to:
>
>def func(): pass
>func =3D limited_expression_producing_function(another(func))
[...]
I've seen that transformation before ;-)

I'd be interested if someone with 2.4 would do the following (untested):

def A(f): return f
def B(f): return f

def foo():
    @A
    @B
    def bar(): pass
    return bar

def baz():
    def bar(): pass
    return A(B(bar)

import dis
dis.dis(foo)
dis.dis(baz)

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Aug 19 17:30:53 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 14:30:53 -0700
Subject: ANN: pyxe
Message-ID: <cg366d$e9s@odbk17.prod.google.com>

Forgive me if this comes out odd, I'm testing the new
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python - it seems to
encourage top-posting and quoting the entire previous thread!

Anyway, what sets this app apart from py2exe (or cx_Freeze,
BundleBuilder or McMillan Installer for that matter)?

I built the hello.py but it seemed to just create another pyxe.exe, the
same seems to have happened for your SimpleHTTPServer in the example
directory.....

Gerson Kurz wrote:
> pyxe is a small executable that will run python scripts on a machine
> that doesn't have Python installed. Example: You have the following
> hello.py:
>
> def main():
>     print "Hello, World"
>
> You can create a binary distribution using
>
> pyxe /build hello
>
> This will create a directory ./hello which contains all you need.
Copy
> all files to a host system and run the app using
>
> pyxe hello
>
> That's it. Note that your app must define a
>
> def main():
>
> which is the main procedure to start from pyxe. There is one known
> restriction, sys.argv[] doesn't get properly setup in pyxe
> environment. You can fix this yourself:
>
> import sys
> try:
>     import cfrompy
>     sys.argv = cfrompy.GetSysArgv()
> except ImportError:
>     assert sys.argv
>
> Easy, eh? Requirements
>
> - On the developer machine, you must have python23 installed.
> - On the target machine, no requirements.
> - Tested on Windows NT and Windows 2000. You are on your own with
> other systems (such as XP, 03 etc.)
>
> pyxe is free for any purpose whatsoever.
>
> Download:
> http://p-nand-q.com/python/pyxe.zip
>
> includes the full sourcecode and a sample app in Python which
actually
> is the "SimpleHTTPServer" webserver ;) Enjoy
>
> Homepage = this mail in fancy tags:
> http://p-nand-q.com/python/pyxe.html



From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Aug 31 11:28:01 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:28:01 +0200
Subject: Splitting a list
References: <41A1CBC76FDECC42B67946519C6677A9018C2F6B@pippin.int.etrials.com>
	<mailman.2674.1093961508.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ch248m$dro$06$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <ch25e1$gjn$03$1@news.t-online.com>

Peter Otten wrote:

... before memory kicked in.

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=c1hkvh%249q5%2400%241%40news.t-online.com

Sorry.

Peter



From dave at inthegarage.net  Wed Aug 18 07:21:36 2004
From: dave at inthegarage.net (aToaster)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 04:21:36 -0700
Subject: Help passing variables.
Message-ID: <8ff6f02e.0408180321.27b4cc39@posting.google.com>

Hi guys, new to the forums.  I'm starting to learn python and tkinter.
 I started off by trying to make a simple calculator program and I
need to pass the calcTotal variable in and out of the ButtonHandler
function, how do I do this?

This is my program
# -----------------------------------------
from Tkinter import *

class CalcApp:
    def __init__(self, parent):
            self.myParent = parent
            self.myContainer1 = Frame(parent)
            self.myContainer1.pack()

            # Button 1
            button_name = "1"
            self.button1 = Button(self.myContainer1,
                    command = lambda
                    arg1=1, arg2=button_name :
                    self.buttonHandler(arg1, arg2)
                    )

            self.button1.configure(text=button_name)
            self.button1.pack(side=LEFT)

            # Button 2
            button_name = "2"
            self.button2 = Button(self.myContainer1,
                    command = lambda
                    arg1=2, arg2=button_name :
                    self.buttonHandler(arg1, arg2)
                    )
            self.button2.configure(text=button_name)
            self.button2.pack()
            
            
    def buttonHandler(self, argument1, argument2):
            print "You have clicked :", argument2
            calcTotal = calcTotal + argument1
            print calcTotal

    def buttonHandler_a(self, argument1, argument2):
            print "You have clicked :", argument2
            calcTotal = calcTotal +argument1
            print calcTotal

var calcTotal = 0
print "\n"*100
print "Starting program Calc."
root = Tk()
myapp = CalcApp(root)
print "Starting even loop."
root.mainloop()
print "Finished executing event loop."

#End of Program
# -----------------------------------------

Any help will be greatly appreciated! Thanks

,aToaster

PS. I love Python!


From pink at odahoda.de  Sun Aug 22 08:06:16 2004
From: pink at odahoda.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 14:06:16 +0200
Subject: Validating SGML parser?
In-Reply-To: <2oq5h5Fd6190U1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <cg8gkt$tiu$07$1@news.t-online.com> <2oq5h5Fd6190U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <cga2b3$bpv$07$1@news.t-online.com>

Leif K-Brooks wrote:
> Benjamin Niemann wrote:
> 
>> does anyone know of a validating SGML parser in python (like 
>> xmlproc.xmlval does for XML)? Goal is to validation HTML against the 
>> DTD, similar to validator.w3.org, not all SGML obscurities are required.
> 
> 
> There are plenty of command-line tools for that. Why not use one of them 
> through Python?
Portability. The current version (that works can handle XHTML variants) 
works out of the box on Windows, Linux and probably everything else that 
supports Python. Would be nice if it could stay this way...


From hamilcar at tld.always.invalid  Wed Aug 18 22:40:00 2004
From: hamilcar at tld.always.invalid (Hamilcar Barca)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:40:00 -0600
Subject: Best programming language
References: <mailman.1718.1092639914.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cfpqlf$7sv$1@news.onet.pl>
	<mailman.1723.1092650117.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<873c2ndizt.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>
	<cfsqfu$co3$1@news.onet.pl>
	<mailman.1787.1092743214.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20040818224000.327$PF@news.newsreader.com>

Andrew Durdin wrote:

> The obvious answer, of course, is that on the newsgroup/mailing list
> for language X, define "best programming language" to be X. It saves a
> lot of combustion :)

Or, try comp.lang.functional, where the flame wars often denigrate
"corporation" (read: OO) programmers in favor of the High Priests
of Fuctional Programming.


From bockman at virgilio.it  Fri Aug 27 14:46:59 2004
From: bockman at virgilio.it (Francesco Bochicchio)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:46:59 GMT
Subject: Class Friends
References: <20040827081556.657c3fac.a@c.d>
	<pan.2004.08.27.12.55.20.844417@jerf.org>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.27.18.46.54.242484@virgilio.it>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:55:28 +0000, Jeremy Bowers wrote:

> In Python, there isn't much of an idea of "Private"; Python's philosophy
> is "We're all consenting adults here." Thus, there isn't much of an idea
> of "friends" either. In Java terminology, on a technical level
> everybody is already friends with everybody else already. 
>

My own 'rule of thumb' in accessing from outside to the attributes
of a Python class  is "read attributes directly, but change them only via
methods". In other words, I treat all attributes in a class as 'readonly'.
This allow me to cut off amletic questions like "shall this be public of
private?", only to change it later on. The rule is so effective that I
tend to use it also in languages that allow public/protected/private
distinctions, like C++ and Java.




From des.small at bristol.ac.uk  Fri Aug 20 06:35:18 2004
From: des.small at bristol.ac.uk (Des Small)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:35:18 GMT
Subject: Regular expression guaranteed to fail
Message-ID: <yyrjacwqdrlk.fsf@pc156.maths.bris.ac.uk>

I want to use sets and regular expressions to implement some
linguistic ideas.  Representing sounds by symbols, and properties
(coronal or velar articulation; voicedness) by sets of symbols with
those properties, it is natural to then map these sets, and
intersections of them, to regular expressions to apply to strings.

The question is, what regular expression should correspond to the
empty set?  I've provisionally gone with "(?!.*)", i.e., the negation
of a look-ahead which matches anything.  Is there an established idiom
for this, and is that it?  And if there isn't, does this seem
reasonable?

Example code:

"""
import sets

def str2set(s): return sets.Set(s.split())

cor = str2set("N D T") # Coronal articulation
vel = str2set("K G") # Velar articulation
voi = str2set("N D G") # Voiced

def set2re(s):
    if s: return "|".join([e for e in s])
    else: return "(?!.*)"
"""

So we can get a regexp (string) that matches symbols corresponding to
velar and voiced sounds:
"""
>>> set2re(cor & voi)
=> 'D|N'
"""
But nothing can be (in this model at least) velar and coronal:
"""
>>> cor & vel
=> Set([])
"""
and this maps to the Regexp Which Matches Nothing:
"""
>>> set2re(cor & vel)
=> '(?!.*)'
"""

This seems quite elegant to me, but there is such a fine line between
elegance and utter weirdness and I'd be glad to know which side other
persons think I'm on here.

Des
-- 
"[T]he structural trend in linguistics which took root with the
International Congresses of the twenties and early thirties [...] had
close and effective connections with phenomenology in its Husserlian
and Hegelian versions." -- Roman Jakobson


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 29 20:33:53 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 20:33:53 -0400
Subject: cPickle and __getattr__
In-Reply-To: <ChuYc.2094$w%6.858@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>
References: <ChuYc.2094$w%6.858@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <cgtslh$7en$3@sea.gmane.org>

Chris Curvey wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> I have this program
> 
> class Company:
>    def __init__(self, revenues, costs):
>       self.revenues = revenues
>       self.costs = costs
> 
>    def __getattr__(self, name):
>        if name == 'profits':
>            return self.revenues - self.costs
> 
> c = Company(100, 75)
> print c.revenues
> print c.costs
> print c.profits
> 
> import cPickle
> print cPickle.dumps(c)
> 
> Everything works fine up until the last line.  If I remove the 
> __getattr__ function, then everything works (except "print c.profits"). 
>  What is the cPickle class trying to get to that is causing my 
> __getattr__ function to be called?
> 
> -Chris
> 

When you use __getattr__, you should always raise an attribute error for 
names that you don't handle.

     def __getattr__(self, name):
         if name == 'profits':
             return self.revenues - self.costs
         else:
             raise AttributeError, name

Paul



From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Sun Aug  8 08:35:55 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 08 Aug 2004 14:35:55 +0200
Subject: Further changes to source encodings, and 7-bit source str's
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com> <4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de>
	<10h5hgvpafm8a64@news.supernews.com> <41133C76.8040302@v.loewis.de>
	<10h6rklt3fa1690@news.supernews.com> <41137799.70808@v.loewis.de>
	<10h724r20kkeqb2@news.supernews.com> <4113D8DF.8080106@v.loewis.de>
	<10h7tb8nn53ajbb@news.supernews.com> <4114070F.90507@v.loewis.de>
	<10h8f3md11sou81@news.supernews.com>
	<411462b5$0$27020$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<10h9f3kjlr8up8f@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040808xuit_-_@bombur.uio.no>

John Roth wrote:

> The problem I have is that if you use utf-8 as the
> source encoding, you can suddenly drop multi-byte
> characters into an 8-bit string ***BY ACCIDENT***.
> (...)
> Now, my suggested solution of this problem was
> to require that 8-bit string literals in source that was
> encoded with UTF-8 be restricted to the 7-bit
> ascii subset.

Then shouldn't your solution catch all multibyte encodings, not
just UTF-8?

Martin v. L?wis wrote:

> [Hallvard] proposes your third alternative (ban non-ASCII
> characters in byte string literals), not just for UTF-8,
> but for all encodings. Not for all files, though, but
> only for selected files.

John Roth wrote:

> Which is what I don't like about it. It adds complexity
> to the language and a feature that I don't think is really
> necessary (restricting string literals for single-byte encodings.)

It's to prevent several errors:

* If the source file has one 'coding:' and the output destination has
  another character set/encoding, then the wrong character set will be
  output.  Python offers two simple solutions to this:
  - If the program is charset-aware, it can work with Unicode strings,
    and the 8-bit string literal should be a Unicode literal.
  - Otherwise, the program can stay away from Unicode and leave the
    charset problem to the user.

* A worse case of the above:  If the 8-bit output goes to an utf-8
  destination, it won't merely give the wrong character, it will have
  invalid format.  So a program which reads the output may close the
  connection it reads from, or fail to display the file at all, or -
  if it is not robust - crash.  I expect the same applies to other
  multibyte encodings, and probably some single-byte encodings too.

* If the program is charset-aware and works with Unicode strings,
  the Unicode handling blows up if it is passed an 8-bit str
  (example copied from Anders' pychecker feature request):

    # -*- coding: latin-1 -*-
    x = "bl?b?rgr?d"
    unicode(x)
  -->
    Traceback (most recent call last):
      File "/tmp/u.py", line 3, in ?
        unicode(x)
    UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xe5
    in position 2: ordinal not in range(128)

  The problem is that even though the file is tagged with latin-1, the
  string x does not inherit that tag.  So the Unicode handling doesn't
  know which character set, if any, the string contains.

> The other thing I don't like is that it still leaves the
> trap for the unwary which I'm discussing.

Well, I would like to see a feature like this turned on by default
eventually (both for UTF-8 and other character sets), but for the time
being I'll stick to getting the feature into Python in the first place.

Though I do seem to have been too unambitious.  For some reason I was
thinking it would be harder to get a new option into Python than a
per-file declaration.

-- 
Hallvard


From nomail at nospam.no  Sun Aug 22 04:28:26 2004
From: nomail at nospam.no (Dominic)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 10:28:26 +0200
Subject: Python future performance and speed
In-Reply-To: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cg9lce$oq8$1@news.uni-kl.de>

Neuruss wrote:
> It seems there are quite a few projects aimed to improve Python's
> speed and, therefore, eliminate its main limitation for mainstream
> acceptance.
> I just wonder what do you all think?
Well, I have written a (simple) graphical real time simulator
which does 1024x768x16 with at least 20 frames per
second on a PIII 800MHz notebook.
I have wrapped a game graphics library with Pyrex
which was not very difficult.
   However the differential equation solver had been
slow in Python. So I rewrote in C++ and wrapped
it with Boost until I learned that using Pysco
would give me the same boost without C++!
So apart from the small graphics library wrapper
everything has been done in Python.
If JIT for Python gets better Pyrex and the likes
will "only" be useful for wrapping existing C/C++ code.

Ciao,
  Dominic


From fred at acme.com  Tue Aug 10 08:40:51 2004
From: fred at acme.com (Fred)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:40:51 +0200
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
	<cf8trp$lnp$1@nic.grnet.gr>
	<a22gh0dsb94ffqqjqhb3igufi65ap7pg4d@4ax.com>
	<pkulu1-74f.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
Message-ID: <4eghh0hlotu5thcc2bar0mn8l4nkog8nin@4ax.com>

On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 21:13:47 -0700, "Roger Binns"
<rogerb at rogerbinns.com> wrote:
(snip)

Thx, the slides are very educational :-) And if I Python provides a
high-quality grid object or makes it a snap to work with the
ComponentOne ActiveX we currently use, I'll be happy as a pig ... er
.. a snake in mud.

Cheers
Fred.


From yong at net.tamu.edu  Fri Aug  6 12:58:35 2004
From: yong at net.tamu.edu (Yong Wang)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:58:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: directory path access
Message-ID: <20040806165835.C27501589B@net.tamu.edu>

Hi, all:
    In my memmory, there is a system command to display all directory paths the python program has accessed.
What is command format ? I only remember use sys.path.append or insert to add the path.
    Thanks a lot.

     Yong



From pwilkinson at videotron.ca  Fri Aug  6 13:23:41 2004
From: pwilkinson at videotron.ca (Peter Wilkinson)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 13:23:41 -0400
Subject: unicode to ascii converting
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040806131428.01bb4fa8@pop.videotron.ca>

Hello tlistmembers,

I am using the encoding function to convert unicode to ascii. At one point 
this code was working just fine, however, now it has broken.

I am reading a text file that has is in unicode (I am unsure of which 
flavour or bit depth). as I read in the file one line at a time 
(readlines()) it converts to ascii. Simple enough. At the same time I am 
copressing to bz2 with the bz2 module but that works just fine.  The code 
is and error reported appears below. I am unsure what to do.

I assume that because it is reporting that ordinal is not in range, that 
something to do with the character width that I am reading?

Peter W.

def encode_file(file_path, encode_type, compress='N'):
     """
     Changes encoding of file
     """
     new_encode = encode_type
     old_file_path = file_path + '.old'
     new_file_path = file_path
     os.rename(file_path,old_file_path)
     file_in  = file(old_file_path,'r')

     if compress == 'Y' or compress == 'y':
         bz_file_path = file_path + '.bz2'
         bz_file_out  = bz2.BZ2File(bz_file_path, 'w')
         for line in file_in.readlines():
             bz_file_out.write(line.encode(new_encode))
         bz_file_out.close()

     else:
         file_out = file(file_path,'w')
         for line in file_in.readlines():
             file_out.write(line.encode(new_encode))
         file_out.close()

     file_in.close()
     os.remove(old_file_path)

ERROR Reported:

Parsing 
X:\GenomeQuebec_repository\microarray\HIS\M15K\Step_1_repository\HISH0224.txt
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "C:\Program Files\ActiveState Komodo 2.5\callkomodo\kdb.py", line 
433, in _do_start
     self.kdb.run(code_ob, locals, locals)
   File "C:\Python23\lib\bdb.py", line 350, in run
     exec cmd in globals, locals
   File "C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\xBio\Scripts\unicodeToAscii.py", 
line 158, in ?
     main()
   File "C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\xBio\Scripts\unicodeToAscii.py", 
line 75, in main
     encode_file(fileToProcess, options.encode,  'Y')
   File "C:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\xBio\Scripts\unicodeToAscii.py", 
line 144, in encode_file
     bz_file_out.write(line.encode(new_encode))
UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xff in position 0: 
ordinal not in range(128)



From heikowu at ceosg.de  Mon Aug  9 14:25:42 2004
From: heikowu at ceosg.de (Heiko Wundram)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 20:25:42 +0200
Subject: What are decorators?
In-Reply-To: <68BA7704-EA25-11D8-9BC6-000A9574CFD8@earthlink.net>
References: <68BA7704-EA25-11D8-9BC6-000A9574CFD8@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <200408092025.42519.heikowu@ceosg.de>

Am Montag, 9. August 2004 18:58 schrieb gohaku:
> The examples I have seen written in Python of this "Not Yet
> Implemented" feature
> are confusing to say the least and perplexes me as to its usefulness.

Decorators change an object at declaration time (well, Python only supports 
decorators for methods and functions atm., which are top-level objects 
nonetheless). Basically, what is done when using decorators is the following:

class x(object):

	@ <somedecorator>
	def y(self,<someparams>):
		<blah>

translates to:

class x(object):

	def y(self,<someparameters>):
		<blah>
	y = <somedecorator>(y)

Now, somedecorator gets the method object (rather, a function object) for 
method y, and may do with it whatever it wishes, needing to return a new 
method object.

Thus, you might do the following:

<code python="2.4">
authors = {}

# Defining the decorator, just a function.
def func_spec(**kwargs):
	"""
	This decorator decorates the function with an additional attributes. These
	additional attributes can be used to confer information about the current
	function.
	"""
	global authors

	def decoratef(f):
		for k, v in kwargs.iteritems():
			if k == "author":
				if v not in authors:
					authors[v] = 0
				authors[v] += 1
			setattr(f,k,v)
		return f

	return decoratef

# Defining the class x, which contains a function which has an attribute named
# author.
class x(object):

	@ func_spec(author="Heiko Wundram",version="0.1")
	def y(self):
		print "Calling y."

	@ func_spec(author="Somebody else",version="0.2")
	def z(self):
		print "Calling z."

# Now, for usage.
ob = x()

print "y's author and version:", ob.y.author, ob.y.version
print "z's author and version:", ob.z.author, ob.z.version

print "Authors, and functions by authors:", authors

ob.y()
ob.z()
</code>

This example is an example of a decorator facilitating attaching meta-data to 
a function. The decorator also keeps track of how many functions are written 
by each author (programmer), which might be useful in case you're working for 
a big company or something...

Anyway, decorators as shown above already work out of the box in Python 2.3, 
but with a more cumbersome syntax:

<code python="2.3">
class x(object):

	def y(self):
		print "Calling y."
	y = func_spec(author="Heiko Wundram",version="0.1")(y)

	def z(self):
		print "Calling z."
	z = func_spec(author="Somebody else",version="0.2")(z)
</code>

Now, decorators can't just change the function object and return it. They may 
also return a completely new function object:

<code>
import sys
import traceback

# Decorator printing debugging output.
def debugger(f):
	def debugf(*args,**kwargs):
		print "---- DEBUGGER STARTS HERE ----"
		print "Entering:", f.__name__
		print "Arguments:", args
		print "Keyword arguments:", kwargs
		print "Running function..."
		try:
			try:
				retv = f(*args,**kwargs)
				print "Function returned:", repr(retv)
				return retv
			except:
				print "Running function raised exception."
				traceback.print_exception(*sys.exc_info())
				raise
		finally:
			print "Leaving:", f.__name__
			print "---- DEBUGGER ENDS HERE ----"
	return debugf

class x(object):

	@ debugger
	def y(self,raise_exc=False):
		if raise_exc:
			raise Exception, "We raise an exception here."
		else:
			return (42,"the answer to everything")

ob = x()

# Call it, once without raising, once with.
ob.y()
ob.y(True)
</code>

Now, you could certainly make the debugger decorator a little more intelligent 
(for example, using inspect, it could parse the arguments and print them out 
properly), but this example just shows that debugging one function of your 
code (rather, inspecting input and output) is as easy as just adding
@ debugger in front of the function definition. When you're done debugging the 
function, just remove @ debugger.

Again, as before, this could've been done in another fashion for <=2.3

<code python="2.3">

class x(object):

	def y(self,raise_exc=False):
		<blah>
	y = debugger(y)

</code>

But again, having the decorator in front of the function definition simply is 
more beautiful, that's why this syntactic sugar is being introduced.

I've already written up several other examples (e.g. method synchronization), 
which you can find all over c.l.p.

To sum it up: decorators can do a lot, and basically what they do has already 
been available in Python <= 2.3, but adding syntactic sugar for decorators 
makes it nicer to use them.

Heiko.


From mike1 at tumladen.net  Wed Aug 11 06:40:54 2004
From: mike1 at tumladen.net (Mike Greaves)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 03:40:54 -0700
Subject: class in IronPython?
Message-ID: <316f1dc0.0408110240.4c83fb42@posting.google.com>

I see from Google groups that I'm not the only one to have this
problem...

In Jim H.'s new IronPython 0.6:

mono bin/IronPythonConsole.exe
>>> class myClass:
...   pass
...
System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance
of an object

...

Am I missing something basic?
Yes, I suspected Mono, and so tried it in .NET 1.1 on  an XP
machine...
And actual working (non-empty) classes don't work either.

Is the class mechanism not yet implemented?  Does Jim say as much in a
doc or a posting somewhere?

Thanks for any insight.

Mike Greaves


From vincent at visualtrans.de  Fri Aug  6 10:39:11 2004
From: vincent at visualtrans.de (vincent wehren)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 16:39:11 +0200
Subject: [Python-Dev] RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <41137960.6050400@v.loewis.de>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1196.1091715567.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cev7mj$lt6$1@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
	<4113429a$0$26993$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<cevs3k$386$1@news5.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
	<41137960.6050400@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <cf056e$glb$1@news3.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>

Martin v. L?wis wrote:
> vincent wehren wrote:
> 
>> Well, writing a bunch of the registry keys fails. This user has no 
>> rights to
>> write them and is greated with several error messages as in:
>>
>> "Could not write value to key
>> HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes\.py Verify that you have
>> sufficient access to that key, or contact your support personnel."
>>
>> .. Same for .pyw, .pyc, *.pyo etc.
>> .. Python.File\shell\open\command
>> .. Python.NoConFile\shell\open\command
>> .. Python.CompiledFile\shell
>> .. Edit with Idle
>>
>> and so on. I was just wondering if the installer should be aware of the
>> rights situation and not try to write those keys in the first place.
> 
> 
> This is very surprising. How unprivileged must a user be so he can't
> write to HKEY_CURRENT_USER? What operating system is this, and how
> was the user created?

This is on Windows XP Professional. This is a plain vanilla "limited 
user" created via the user accounts tool in the control panel.

> 
> MSI does have the notion of unprivileged users, but those are the
> ones that can't write to System32, the All Users profile, and
> HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE (i.e. non-Administrator, non-Power User users).
> There is no provision (AFAICT) for user that can't write to their
> own registry.

Yes. That makes sense. So I checked the registry with regedit.
"HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes" seems - for whatever reason - to be 
busted for this particular user. At least I can't open it manually with 
regedit, so my tentative guess is the same applies to the installer. 
Sorry I didn't check this first!

--
Vincent Wehren




> 
> Regards,
> Martin













From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Aug  6 08:28:16 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 14:28:16 +0200
Subject: [Python-Dev] RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <cevs3k$386$1@news5.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1196.1091715567.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cev7mj$lt6$1@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
	<4113429a$0$26993$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<cevs3k$386$1@news5.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
Message-ID: <41137960.6050400@v.loewis.de>

vincent wehren wrote:
> Well, writing a bunch of the registry keys fails. This user has no rights to
> write them and is greated with several error messages as in:
> 
> "Could not write value to key
> HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes\.py Verify that you have
> sufficient access to that key, or contact your support personnel."
> 
> .. Same for .pyw, .pyc, *.pyo etc.
> .. Python.File\shell\open\command
> .. Python.NoConFile\shell\open\command
> .. Python.CompiledFile\shell
> .. Edit with Idle
> 
> and so on. I was just wondering if the installer should be aware of the
> rights situation and not try to write those keys in the first place.

This is very surprising. How unprivileged must a user be so he can't
write to HKEY_CURRENT_USER? What operating system is this, and how
was the user created?

MSI does have the notion of unprivileged users, but those are the
ones that can't write to System32, the All Users profile, and
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE (i.e. non-Administrator, non-Power User users).
There is no provision (AFAICT) for user that can't write to their
own registry.

Regards,
Martin


From jh at nospam.com  Sun Aug 29 14:23:53 2004
From: jh at nospam.com (Hillairet Julien)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 20:23:53 +0200
Subject: [PIL] about the difference between pudata and putpixel
References: <pan.2004.08.29.10.54.40.204024@nospam.com>
	<153fa67.0408290637.54a7cbc7@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.29.18.23.27.228528@nospam.com>

Le Sun, 29 Aug 2004 07:37:37 -0700, Kylotan a ?crit?:

> Hillairet Julien <jh at nospam.com> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.08.29.10.54.40.204024 at nospam.com>...
> 
>> Although, this code doesn't work:
>> 
>> im.putdata(color)
>> 
>> There is no error message, but the image's pixels stay black (0) ! (The
>> color matrix is not an 0-matrix !)
>> 
>> Is someone can explain me my misunderstanding of putdata ?
> 
> I think the misunderstanding is of numarray. I'm guessing that
> iterating through a 2D array returns individual rows rather than
> individual elements.
> 
> I've never used numarray before but from looking at the documentation,
> you could try this:
> 
> im.putdata(color.ravel())
> 
> or 
> 
> im.putdata(ravel(color))

Yes that's it !!

I've not understood that Image need an 1D array...

Thanks a lot. 




From gh at ghaering.de  Mon Aug  2 18:32:47 2004
From: gh at ghaering.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gerhard_H=E4ring?=)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 00:32:47 +0200
Subject: PostgreSQL on OS X
In-Reply-To: <10gh389duis5h51@corp.supernews.com>
References: <10gh389duis5h51@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <410EC10F.9020000@ghaering.de>

Tom Dye wrote:
> Aloha Python community,
> 
> Is it possible to access PostgreSQL from Python on Mac OS X?  Any help 
> appreciated.

You're looking for a Python database library?

pyPgSQL can be built on OS/X. IIRC psycopg too.

-- Gerhard


From miki.tebeka at zoran.com  Mon Aug 23 05:13:26 2004
From: miki.tebeka at zoran.com (Miki Tebeka)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:13:26 +0200
Subject: IDLE under Cygwin - no toolbar menu. Any idea why?
In-Reply-To: <56cfb0e3.0408191226.43caa96b@posting.google.com>
References: <56cfb0e3.0408191226.43caa96b@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <20040823091325.GI1948@zoran.com>

Hello Porky,

> A question for those using python under Cygwin. I've just installed
> the latest distribution with python 2.3.4. One problem I have is when
> I start IDLE, it doesn't show toolbar menu (either shell window or
> edit window). Does anyone know why and if there is a workaround? TIA.
> 
> (I know I should probably ask Cygwin folks, but just want to check it
> here first)
It's a known bug.
Use "idle -n" (no subprocess) to get the menus.

HTH.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Miki Tebeka <miki.tebeka at zoran.com>
http://tebeka.spymac.net
The only difference between children and adults is the price of the toys


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Mon Aug  9 10:03:57 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 09:03:57 -0500
Subject: compromise? keywords for static/class,
	move decorators to top of function
References: <Oo2dnUOZI8VmWI7cRVn-sA@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <yOmdnRcSN9TZGYrcRVn-hg@comcast.com>

There are a lot of people talking about decorators
that I'm certain are a LOT smarter than me but here
goes:

Couldn't we use a dictionary construct like the one
used in classes to hold the dictionaries attributes.
I'm talking about __dict__ construct.

def getratio(arg1, arg2):
    __decorators__['getratio']={} # Maybe this is automatic?
    # or __decorators__['getratio']=__decoratorbase__.copy()
    __decorators__['getratio']['classmethod']=True
    __decorators__['getratio']['accepts']=(int, int)
    __decorators__['getratio']['returns']=(float)
    __decorators__['getratio']['metadata1']="some metadata"
    ...

I'm sure I'm missing something but this seems to
be 1) Easy on my eye, 2) Extensible (any metadata
that you want), 3) Consistent with something I'm
already comfortable with.

I'm certain that I'm missing something very important, but
I have to agree with many others, the '@' syntax just
doesn't feel correct.

Regards,
Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.

"Doug Holton" <insert at spam.here> wrote in message
news:Oo2dnUOZI8VmWI7cRVn-sA at comcast.com...
> First let me say please see the wiki page about python decorators if you
> haven't already: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/PythonDecorators
>
> I propose (and others have) that built-in features have keyword support,
> like static and class methods.  Also, I believe it is more readable if
> decorators, especially longer ones, are moved to the top of the function
> body, just like docstrings, instead of coming before the function is
> even declared.  Whether you use @ or [] is still open.
>
> def classmethod getratio (arg1, arg2):
>      @accepts(int,int)
>      @returns(float)
>      ...
>
> def classmethod getratio (arg1, arg2):
>      [accepts(int,int), returns(float)]
>      ...
>
> This has these advantages: the function declaration itself is still the
> first and most important thing, decorators are indented just like the
> body of the function so it is more clearly a part of the function.
>
> In the future though, if you add an "as" keyword for adapters, you could
> just say:
>
> def classmethod getratio (arg1 as int, arg2 as int) as float:
>      ...
>
> contrast that simple example with this, which is kind of ugly:
>
> @accepts(int,int)
> @returns(float)
> @classmethod #has to be last in order?
> def getratio (arg1, arg2):
>      ...




From andreasp at qbcon.com  Tue Aug 24 07:13:35 2004
From: andreasp at qbcon.com (Andreas Pauley)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:13:35 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <412B22DF.6000205@qbcon.com>

Lucas Raab wrote:

>One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
>Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
>about....
>  
>

I'm 25, using Python mostly for sysadmin work at the moment, and expanding
my skills to use it for OO system development as well.

Andreas Pauley


From mov_21h at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 14 11:53:10 2004
From: mov_21h at yahoo.com (Bigbowser)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:53:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Practical examples 
Message-ID: <20040814155310.45672.qmail@web50001.mail.yahoo.com>

hi all, 

I'm new to python, and have read through
http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/thinkCSpy/ , and now I'm
looking for some simple programs to have a read
through and other more in-depth tutorials to have a
look at.

Regards,
Bigbowser

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From mh at dreadnok.pixar.com  Thu Aug  5 19:57:07 2004
From: mh at dreadnok.pixar.com (Mark Harrison)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 23:57:07 GMT
Subject: how to force a list to be local?
Message-ID: <nPzQc.1008$5B5.833@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>

In the following code, t1 does not modify b, while t2 seems to
modify b.  What do I need to do in order to make b local in t2
so that b.remove() does not modify the passed in list?

def t1(a,b):
    b = []

def t2(a,b):
    b.remove(4)


a=[1,2,3]
b=[4,5]

t1(a,b)
print a,b

t2(a,b)
print a,b

results:
[1, 2, 3] [4, 5]
[1, 2, 3] [5]

Many TIA!
Mark

-- 
Mark Harrison
Pixar Animation Studios


From dw at botanicus.net  Mon Aug 30 04:29:55 2004
From: dw at botanicus.net (David Wilson)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:29:55 +0100
Subject: The voodoo of zip(*someList)
In-Reply-To: <4132E4D5.6050801@botanicus.net>
References: <c60e7f28.0408300000.657118b1@posting.google.com>
	<4132E4D5.6050801@botanicus.net>
Message-ID: <4132E583.6030409@botanicus.net>

David Wilson wrote:

> In other words, it allows you to programmatically build an argument 
> list. Similarly,
>
>    your_mapping = { 'cmpfunc': lambda x: x }
>    some_list = [ 3, 1, 6, 2 ]
>    some_list.sort(**your_mapping)
>
> is equivalent to:
>
>    zip(cmpfunc = lambda x: x)

    some_list = [ 3, 1, 6, 2 ]
    some_list.sort(cmpfunc = lambda x: x)

There's nothing more confusing when you are trying to learn than an 
incorrect example. My apologies, lacking sleep here. :)


David.


From dd55 at cornell.edu  Tue Aug  3 13:30:51 2004
From: dd55 at cornell.edu (Darren Dale)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 13:30:51 -0400
Subject: file IO
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1080.1091500509.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <cemnlj$cd1$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>	<cempg2$d1e$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<mailman.1080.1091500509.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ceoi5b$51j$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>

Jeff Epler wrote:
> Are you using Windows?  That would mean the answer is almost certainly
> "something to do with carriage returns and binary vs text mode".  The
> lack of a trailing newline on the last line of your example can also
> make for additional trouble (though my tests on unix, with stdio, mmap,
> and StringIO didn't ever give me a 4-byte file, windows might give you
> the file "a\r\nb" when viewed in binary format, "a\nb" when viewed in
> text format)
> 
> I doubt that the mmap module's readline knows whether the file was
> opened in universal text mode---that's a pure Python invention, while
> mmap takes a file descriptor.
> 

I am using windows (for now), and reading files created on a Linux 
machine. I think you are right, it has something to do with mmap and the 
/r/n windows convention. Thank you (very much) for your response... I am 
sane again.

Darren


From jason at injektilo.org  Sat Aug 21 13:57:34 2004
From: jason at injektilo.org (Jason Diamond)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:57:34 -0700
Subject: Detecteing Unicode encodings
Message-ID: <rfWdnUw41o6SELrcRVn-qQ@adelphia.com>

Hi.

Is it possible to decode a UTF-8 (with or without a BOM), UTF-16 (BE or
LE with a BOM), or UTF-32 (BE or LE with a BOM) byte stream without
knowing what encoding the stream is in?

I know how to use the codecs module to get StreamReader classes that can
decode a specific encoding but I have to know what that enocding is
before hand.

If I read up to four bytes from the byte stream, I can figure out what
encoding the stream is in but that has problems for UTF-8 streams
without BOMs--I would have just eaten one or more bytes that might need
to be decoded by the StreamReader. I could seek back to the beginning of
the stream but what if the file-like object I was reading from didn't
support seeking?

Thanks.

-- Jason


From jjl at pobox.com  Thu Aug 26 15:00:05 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 20:00:05 +0100
Subject: Missing _sre.pyd in 2.4a2 Windows installer?
Message-ID: <1xhtg1xm.fsf@pobox.com>

The subject line says it, really: I installed 2.4a2 using the MSI
installer on python.org, and I appear to be missing this file:

C:\Python24\DLLs\_sre.pyd


As a result, Python picks up the _sre.pyd from my 2.3 installation,
and I get the expected error about a bad magic number in that DLL.

I think I must be doing something stupid, but what, exactly?

TIA for any help


John


From martin at v.loewis.de  Sun Aug 22 16:53:28 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 22:53:28 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
In-Reply-To: <HBF.20040822l1c0@bombur.uio.no>
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no>
	<ceu67e$ioa$00$1@news.t-online.com>
	<HBF.20040805npas@bombur.uio.no>
	<cev7rn$me7$01$1@news.t-online.com>
	<HBF.20040806aoi5@bombur.uio.no>
	<cf7rhs$kqh$04$1@news.t-online.com>
	<HBF.20040822l1c0@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <412907C8.1090104@v.loewis.de>

Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
>>>For example, if one uses character set ns_4551-1 - ASCII with {|}[\]
>>>replaced with ??????, sorting by simple byte ordering will sort text
>>>correctly.  Unicode text _can't_ be sorted correctly, because of
>>>characters like '?': Swedish '?' should match Norwegian '?' and sort
>>>with that, while German '?' should not match '?' and sorts with 'o'.
>>
>>Why not sort depending on the locale instead of ordinal values of the
>>bytes/characters?
> 
> 
> I'm in Norway.  Both Swedes and Germans are foreigners.

I agree with many things you said, but this example is bogus. If I
(as a German) use ns_4551-1, sorting is simple - and incorrect, because,
as you say, ? sorts with o in my language - yet the simple sorting of
ns_4551-1 doesn't. So sorting is *not* simple with ns_4551-1.

Likewise, sorting *is* possible with Unicode if you take the locale into
account. The order of character doesn't have to be the numerical one,
and, as you explain, it might even depend on the locale. So if you
want a Swedish collaction, use a Swedish locale; if you want a German
collation, use a German locale.

Regards,
Martin


From Symantec_AntiVirus_for_SMTP_Gateways at umagroup.com  Wed Aug 11 14:56:25 2004
From: Symantec_AntiVirus_for_SMTP_Gateways at umagroup.com (Symantec_AntiVirus_for_SMTP_Gateways at umagroup.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 12:56:25 -0600
Subject: Content violation
Message-ID: <20040811185605.795C81E4003@bag.python.org>

Content violation found in email message.

From: python-list at python.org
To: pbirdsell at umagroup.com

File(s): message.scr

Matching filename: *.scr*




From michael.gregorius at indunorm.de  Fri Aug  6 02:51:52 2004
From: michael.gregorius at indunorm.de (michael.gregorius at indunorm.de)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 08:51:52 +0200
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <20040806065159.A59822DC0F1@pbzis4.it.phoenix.wuerth.com>

------------------  Virus Warning Message (on pbzc1n2.it.phoenix.wuerth.com)

Found virus WORM_MYDOOM.M in file instruction.pif
The uncleanable file instruction.pif is moved to /etc/iscan/virus/virVZK9X1.

---------------------------------------------------------
-------------- next part --------------
The original message was included as attachment

-------------- next part --------------

------------------  Virus Warning Message (on pbzc1n2.it.phoenix.wuerth.com)

instruction.pif is removed from here because it contains a virus.

---------------------------------------------------------

From urbushey at sas.upenn.edu  Tue Aug 10 16:56:59 2004
From: urbushey at sas.upenn.edu (uri bushey)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:56:59 -0600
Subject: Standalone Python Programs...
In-Reply-To: <ceugpq$35rs$1@netnews.upenn.edu>
References: <ceugpq$35rs$1@netnews.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <cfbcqn$qh6$1@netnews.upenn.edu>


So per everyone's advice, I decided to make a go of it with py2exe.
Unfortunately I'm getting a traceback instead of an executable.
It states: "WindowsError: [Errno 3] The system cannot find the path 
specified:
'C:\\PythonProgram\\dist\\library.zip\\Pmw/*.*'
I did some searching and discovered that I have to use 'bundlepmw.' So I 
did this, and then I get an error about one of my libraries instead:

_tkinter.TclError: Can't find package wsurf 1.7

So I added this to dist\tcl, and then I get an error about my next 
library, snack. Well, adding all of these libraries is eventually going 
to defeat the purpose of freezing the program, isn't it? Wsurf itself is 
4 MB!

Is there something else i should be doing?


From mattjensen at timetospare.net  Sun Aug 29 01:03:30 2004
From: mattjensen at timetospare.net (Matthew K Jensen)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 22:03:30 -0700
Subject: Help req: py2exe's compiled executables only working with XP
Message-ID: <173c23bb.0408282103.5eb4152@posting.google.com>

I am a young programmer with his big break on the line. For some
reason, small apps that I've written and compiled on an XP machine
won't work on anything but XP machines. I can't find any clue as to
what's going on. Is the problem py2exe or something in my own scripts?
I am at the end of my rope and I'm hoping someone out there can give
me a pointer of two.

Respectfully with full recognition that a lot of you are smarter than
me,
Matt K Jensen


From danb_83 at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 25 14:58:53 2004
From: danb_83 at yahoo.com (Dan Bishop)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 11:58:53 -0700
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
	<dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
Message-ID: <ad052e5c.0408251058.538354bf@posting.google.com>

Dave Opstad <dave.opstad at agfamonotype.com> wrote in message news:<dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004 at reader0903.news.uu.net>...
>
> [discussion of why list.sort returns None instead of a list]
>
> But isn't the fact that the list is modified in place incidental to the 
> fact of sorting? One is an implementation detail, and the other is the 
> semantic meaning you're trying to express.

The fact that the list is sorted in-place *is* semantically
meaningful.  It's often important to know whether the original list is
sorted or not.


From user at domain.invalid  Wed Aug 11 05:07:28 2004
From: user at domain.invalid (Robbie)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 19:07:28 +1000
Subject: loading message thingy
Message-ID: <cfcndl$28em$1@otis.netspace.net.au>

Even though this is not very important it would be nice to get working.

Basically all I want to do is continuously write to the same line.
So I could have a little rotating text thing showing that the script is 
working or display data ie, kb downloaded so far...

ATM I am just calling a clear screen every pass with a little nap, nasty.

Something along these lines:
for i in range(1000):
      print "Loading... %s" % file_size
      os.system("clear")
      sleep(0.5)
I also tried something with \r but that never quite worked...
Also it would be nice to be able to change more than one line so I could 
have 4 threads open downloading something with 4 lines each stating the 
current status of each thread...
		


From m.tiesman1 at charter.net  Mon Aug  2 13:32:45 2004
From: m.tiesman1 at charter.net (Mark)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 12:32:45 -0500
Subject: New to Python/Programming
Message-ID: <10gsujk1og2gkbf@corp.supernews.com>

Hello.  I am new to programming and Python and was wondering if someone 
could help get me started.  I picked Python to start learning to prgram 
because of some things I have read about it (easy to learn, object 
oriented, clear syntax, etc...).  Can anyone assist in getting me 
started with learning to program and Python?  Recommended reading 
material?  Online tutorials?  Recommended development tools (wxpython, 
pythonwin, etc...)?  I am a network admin by trade and have done little 
programming except for the occasional script or router config.  this is 
something that has always interested me, but don't have the time to take 
any formal classes.  Thanks for the help.


From geoff at variosoft.com  Mon Aug  9 16:29:50 2004
From: geoff at variosoft.com (Geoff Caplan)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 21:29:50 +0100
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
In-Reply-To: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <116131494969.20040809212950@variosoft.com>

Hi

Check out VisualWx.

http://visualwx.altervista.org/

Offers all the wx widgets including sizers, and creates code for C++,
Python, Perl, Lua and Ruby. I've been playing with for a couple of
days, and so far it's looking surprisingly stable and nice to use.

There's an animated tutorial here:

http://www.trinity.unimelb.edu.au/~abulka/demos/visualwx01_launcher.html

------------------ 
Geoff Caplan
Vario Software Ltd
(+44) 121-515 1154 



From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Aug  6 15:46:01 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 21:46:01 +0200
Subject: unicode to ascii converting
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1296.1091813051.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1296.1091813051.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4113DFF9.3090104@v.loewis.de>

Peter Wilkinson wrote:
> UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xff in position 0: 
> ordinal not in range(128)

That error actually says what happened: You have the byte with the 
numeric value 0xff in the input, and the ASCII (American Standard
Code for Information Interchange) converter cannot convert that
into a Unicode character. This is because ASCII is a 7-bit character
set, i.e. it goes from 0..127. 0xFF is 255, so it is out of range.

Now, the line triggering this is

   bz_file_out.write(line.encode(new_encode))

and it invokes *encode*, not *decode*. Why would it give a decode error
then?

Because:

   decode: take a byte string, return a Unicode string
   encode: take a Unicode string, take a byte string

So line should be a Unicode string, for .encode to be a meaningful thing
to do. Unfortunately, Python supports .encode also for byte strings.
If new_encode defines a character encoding, this does

class str:
   def encode(self, encoding):
     unistr = unicode(self)
     return unistr.encode(encoding)

So it first tries to convert the current string into unicode, which
uses the system default encoding, which is us-ascii. Hence the error.

HTH,
Martin


From amk at amk.ca  Sat Aug  7 22:15:50 2004
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 21:15:50 -0500
Subject: decorators vs GIL
References: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>
	<mailman.1345.1091924284.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <8YudnZoJ4NdLEYjcRVn-jA@speakeasy.net>

On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 20:18:00 -0400 (EDT), 
	mudd at vex.net <mudd at vex.net> wrote:
> But isn't the GIL on the way out already?  Jython offers access to the
> non-GIL threads of the JVM.  I always use Java threads when working with
> Jython.  

Perhaps.  That depends on Jython continuing to be developed; if that's of
importance to you, you can help with Jython development or send money to
Samuele Pedroni or assist in other ways.  

My basic point is that the features added to projects are those that people
are willing to actually work on.  In the case of decorators, some people
wanted decorators, for the sake of PyObjC or ctypes or whatever, and Mark
Russell actually sat down and implemented it.  (Because he uses PyObjC?
Because he thought it would be an entertaining task?  Whatever the reason,
it did get done.) Decorators weren't added because of some theoretical goal;
they were added because some people wanted them, and because some people
cared enough to implement them.  

The only way the GIL or performance will be changed is if someone cares
enough to work on them; so far, apparently no one does.  

--amk


From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz  Wed Aug 25 23:28:44 2004
From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:28:44 +1200
Subject: "Socket" files?
In-Reply-To: <2p0ss7Ffh1bdU2@uni-berlin.de>
References: <1093035812.83612@jubilee.esoterica.pt>
	<mailman.2080.1093039543.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4126824a$0$566$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>
	<1093050493.502706@jubilee.esoterica.pt>
	<1093302968.204485@iceman.esoterica.pt>
	<2p0ss7Ffh1bdU2@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <2p53nfFgjm18U1@uni-berlin.de>

Oliver Fromme wrote:
> 
> Uhm, are you sure you know what you're doing?  UNIX domain
> sockets work very similar to Internet domain sockets, i.e.
> they disappear when they're closed (or when your program
> exits, in which case everything is closed implicitly).

Indeed. Last time I played with Unix-domain sockets (which
was quite some time ago, things may have changed since)
the entry in the file system seemed to be completely
useless -- you couldn't do anything with it that you
might expect, e.g. open() it. The docs described the fact
that a file system entry existed as a "side effect" that
might go away in future versions.

-- 
Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept,
University of Canterbury,	
Christchurch, New Zealand
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg



From roy at panix.com  Fri Aug 27 11:33:39 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:33:39 -0400
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
	<dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
	<aN5Xc.205341$M95.157379@pd7tw1no>
	<1gj4fb5.607xsc51izh8N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xllg25lkt.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj4u3a.12ttba9fynd6uN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncis152.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<1gj5bp4.qhup8tldmvebN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncitrk7.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<7xk6vlgemp.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<slrnciu0fg.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
Message-ID: <roy-CF3E9F.11333927082004@reader1.panix.com>

Antoon Pardon <apardon at forel.vub.ac.be> wrote:
> In this case I think the practicality of method chaining beats
> the purity of not allowing side-effects in print statements and
> of having only one obvious way to do things.

Especially since the whole decorator thing is essentially about method 
chaining.


From jsaker at americanrelay.com  Fri Aug  6 13:03:56 2004
From: jsaker at americanrelay.com (James R. Saker Jr.)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 12:03:56 -0500
Subject: Queue qsize = unreliable?
Message-ID: <1091811836.15192.46.camel@localhost>

Peter writes:
>The third point seems to just say that you need a Queue and you
>need to have that thread sit in a blocking get().  What am I
>missing?

You're right; that'd probably work (I'm probably being a bit to paranoid
on the blocking issue). Any thoughts on ZODB Queues? 

Tom... Pyro definitely looks interesting - thx for the link.

Jamie




From david at NOSPAMclocksoft.com  Tue Aug 31 09:38:49 2004
From: david at NOSPAMclocksoft.com (David Chan)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:38:49 +0100
Subject: GUI Wizard: flow control?
Message-ID: <20040831133848.GA31733@mainwaring.clocksoft.dom>

Hi,

I'm trying to use python to create GUI wizards, i.e. sequences of dialog
boxes with <BACK and NEXT> buttons.  Since I want to re-use some of the
dialog boxes in different wizards, I want to have a main function which
calls each dialog box, much like this:

    def select_item():
        """runs GUI wizard to select item"""

        client = show_client_dialog()
        job = show_job_dialog(client)
        invoice, rate = show_invoice_dialog(job)
        item = choose_item_dialog(invoice, rate)
        return item

This works fine until you want to implement the <BACK button, which should
return to the previous dialog.  Theoretically, what I'd really like is to be
able to jump backwards through the control flow, like this:

    class GoBack(Exception): pass
    def select_item():
        """runs GUI wizard to select item - can go <BACK"""
        back = HERE
        client = show_client_dialog()

        try: job = show_job_dialog(client)
        except GoBack: back.goto()
        back = HERE

        try: invoice, rate = show_invoice_dialog(job)
        except GoBack: back.goto()
        back = HERE

        try: item = show_item_dialog(invoice, rate)
        except GoBack: back.goto()

        return item

But I couldn't find a way of doing anything like that.  You could do
something almost as unhorrible with nested breaks:'

    class GoBack(Exception): pass
    def select_item():
        """runs GUI wizard to select item - can go <BACK"""
        CLIENT: while 1:
            client = show_client_dialog()
            
            JOB: while 1:
                try: job = show_job_dialog(client)
                except GoBack: continue CLIENT

                INVOICE: while 1:
                    try: invoice, rate = show_invoice_dialog(job)
                    except GoBack: continue JOB
                    
                    try: item = show_item_dialog(invoice, rate)
                    except GoBack: continue INVOICE
                    break CLIENT

Or you could do all the flow control manually in a "do_wizard" function and
make the caller create a horrible data structure instead of writing readable
code:

    calls = [
        {'meth': show_client_dialog, 'args': [], 'ret': ['client']},
        {'meth': show_job_dialog, 'args': ['client'], 'ret': ['job']},
        {'meth': show_invoice_dialog, 'args': ['job'], 'ret': ['invoice', 'rate']},
        {'meth': show_item_dialog, 'args': ['invoice', 'rate'], 'ret': ['item']},
    ] # this just says: "client = show_client_dialog()", etc.
    do_wizard(calls, locals())


But this is too hideous to deploy, because I might have to remember what it
does in six months :-)  

Can anyone suggest something better, or should I abandon my goal of having a
main function which calls each dialog box?

Many thanks,
-- 
David Chan
Clockwork Software Systems

intY has scanned this email for all known viruses (www.inty.com)



From chris.irish at libertydistribution.com  Thu Aug 19 14:32:41 2004
From: chris.irish at libertydistribution.com (Chris Irish)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:32:41 -0700
Subject: Zope+FB+mx - DateTime errrrrrrrror....
In-Reply-To: <40F69228.4060901@anonym.hu>
References: <40F69228.4060901@anonym.hu>
Message-ID: <4124F249.2080401@libertydistribution.com>

fowlertrainer at anonym.hu wrote:

> Hi !
>
> I think that I have been found a bug in mx.DateTime...
> So:
> I use FireBird, and in this RDBMS the datetime fields are "doubles".
> So if I set them to 0, the values the fields are '1899-12-30 01:00:00'.
>
> When I try to see this datetime as European format (YYYY.MM.DD HH:MM:SS)
> I get error.
>
> Example1:
> s='1899-12-30 01:00:00'
> nv=str(s)
> nv=DateTime(s)
> s=nv.strftime('%Y.%m.%d. %H:%M:%S')
> # it is makes error
>
Well I'm no expert on the mx.Datetime module, but lets so if I can 
help.  In your example #1 I tried doing it in the interpretor exactly as 
you did and ran into some problems.  First, you set 's' equal to a 
string of the date your wanting I presume.  Then your calling the 
builtin str method on it.  Why when it's already a string?  Then your 
calling the DateTime method however it needs to be qualified through the 
mx.DateTime module
i.e.
import mx.DateTime
mx.DateTime.DateTime(s)

However your passing in s to this method as a string.  In the 
mx.DateTime docs it says and I quote, 
"|DateTime(year,month=1,day=1,hour=0,minute=0,second=0.0)|
Constructs a DateTime instance from the given values.

So you need to be passing in integer values except for the seconds 
argument which can be a float.  If you call the method in the correct 
way it will return a datetime object of the date you want then you can 
use strftime to format it in the european fasion yu desire.  One final 
note all datetime objects are created with a 24 hour time, not 12.  So 
5pm will be 17:00 after you string format the object, if my memory is 
correct.  Just remember that for if/when you take those times back out 
of the database to display to a user you'll need to change them to a 12 
hour time, unless they don't mind reading it like that.  We use 
PostgreSQL for our databases and whenever a time object is put into the 
database it is automatically converted to ticks.  I'm not sure if it's 
the same way with yours or not.  So when pulling a time back out it 
would be converted like:

time = mx.DateTime.localtime(item_object_fromDB).strftime("%m/%d/%Y 
etc....")

There is also another method called strptime which parses a time string 
according to a particular format but I haven't used it enough to 
instruct you on it's us, but it could be helpful.

Hopefully something I said will help, be sure to look at the docs @:

http://www.egenix.com/files/python/mxDateTime.html#DateTime
and
http://docs.python.org/lib/module-time.html

Good Luck,  Chris


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From peter at engcorp.com  Wed Aug 11 13:53:56 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:53:56 -0400
Subject: 'break' Causes Execution of Procedure?
In-Reply-To: <cfdl76$j1m$1@news01.intel.com>
References: <cfdif9$hhm$1@news01.intel.com> <cfdl76$j1m$1@news01.intel.com>
Message-ID: <t8udndgpWe6rwIfcRVn-rw@powergate.ca>

Scott Brady Drummonds wrote:

> I should also point out that the second time that the program's execution
> reaches the 'break' statement in the 'main' procedure, I get the following
> cryptic error message:
> 
> <quote>
> DEBUG: advancing both simulators to 20178
> DEBUG: encountered EOFError; breaking loop
> XXX lineno: 109, opcode: 0
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "test.py", line 135, in ?
>     main(sys.argv[1])
>   File "test.py", line 109, in main
>     break
> SystemError: unknown opcode
> </quote>
> 
> What's going on here?

Scrambled .pyc file?  Try deleting all .pyc files in the folder
and rerun.  (Just a thought.)


From dave at inthegarage.net  Sat Aug 21 22:39:51 2004
From: dave at inthegarage.net (aToaster)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 19:39:51 -0700
Subject: Help with Calculater (first program)
Message-ID: <8ff6f02e.0408211839.4057ff5@posting.google.com>

Hey guys, I'm just getting the hang of Python and Tkinter and I could
use some help.  I wrote most of the gui for my calculator program,
well I haven't gotten around to putting in the
plus/minus/divide/mulitply yet but I'll save that for later.  Right
now I want the buttons to display the number in the entry field.  How
can I pass the values into the entry field as they are being clicked? 
Oh and here's my biggest question.  Right now I have it set so that if
you press 3 and 4 it gives you 7, but what I want it to do is if you
press 3 and then 4 it gives you 34.  How would I be able to do that? 
I appreciate the help! Thanks.

,David Peredo

#------------------ CalcApp.py ---------------------------
from Tkinter import *

class CalcApp:
    def __init__(self, parent):
            self.myParent = parent
            self.myContainer1 = Frame(parent)
            self.myContainer1.pack(side=TOP)

            self.myContainer2 = Frame(parent)
            self.myContainer2.pack()

            self.myContainer3 = Frame(parent)
            self.myContainer3.pack()

            self.myContainer4 = Frame(parent)
            self.myContainer4.pack()

            self.myContainer5 = Frame(parent)
            self.myContainer5.pack()

            self.myContainer6 = Frame(parent)
            self.myContainer6.pack(side=BOTTOM)

            #calcTotal
            self.calcTotal = 0

            # Button 7
            button_name = "7"
            self.button3 = Button(self.myContainer1,
                    command = lambda
                    arg1=7, arg2=button_name :
                    self.buttonHandler(arg1, arg2)
                    )
            self.button3.configure(text=button_name)
            self.button3.pack(side=LEFT)

            # Button 8
            button_name = "8"
            self.button3 = Button(self.myContainer1,
                    command = lambda
                    arg1=8, arg2=button_name :
                    self.buttonHandler(arg1, arg2)
                    )
            self.button3.configure(text=button_name)
            self.button3.pack(side=LEFT)

            # Button 9
            button_name = "9"
            self.button3 = Button(self.myContainer1,
                    command = lambda
                    arg1=9, arg2=button_name :
                    self.buttonHandler(arg1, arg2)
                    )
            self.button3.configure(text=button_name)
            self.button3.pack(side=LEFT)

            # Button 4
            button_name = "4"
            self.button3 = Button(self.myContainer2,
                    command = lambda
                    arg1=4, arg2=button_name :
                    self.buttonHandler(arg1, arg2)
                    )
            self.button3.configure(text=button_name)
            self.button3.pack(side=LEFT)

            # Button 5
            button_name = "5"
            self.button3 = Button(self.myContainer2,
                    command = lambda
                    arg1=5, arg2=button_name :
                    self.buttonHandler(arg1, arg2)
                    )
            self.button3.configure(text=button_name)
            self.button3.pack(side=LEFT)

            # Button 6
            button_name = "6"
            self.button3 = Button(self.myContainer2,
                    command = lambda
                    arg1=6, arg2=button_name :
                    self.buttonHandler(arg1, arg2)
                    )
            self.button3.configure(text=button_name)
            self.button3.pack(side=LEFT)
            
            # Button 1
            button_name = "1"
            self.button1 = Button(self.myContainer3,
                    command = lambda
                    arg1=1, arg2=button_name :
                    self.buttonHandler(arg1, arg2)
                    )

            self.button1.configure(text=button_name)
            self.button1.pack(side=LEFT)

            # Button 2
            button_name = "2"
            self.button2 = Button(self.myContainer3,
                    command = lambda
                    arg1=2, arg2=button_name :
                    self.buttonHandler(arg1, arg2)
                    )
            self.button2.configure(text=button_name)
            self.button2.pack(side=LEFT)

            # Button 3
            button_name = "3"
            self.button3 = Button(self.myContainer3,
                    command = lambda
                    arg1=3, arg2=button_name :
                    self.buttonHandler(arg1, arg2)
                    )
            self.button3.configure(text=button_name)
            self.button3.pack(side=LEFT)

            # Button 0
            button_name = "0"
            self.button3 = Button(self.myContainer4,
                    command = lambda
                    arg1=0, arg2=button_name :
                    self.buttonHandler(arg1, arg2)
                    )
            self.button3.configure(text=button_name, width=3)
            self.button3.pack(side=LEFT)

            # Button .
            button_name = "."
            self.buttondot = Button(self.myContainer4)
            self.buttondot.configure(text=button_name, width=1)
            self.buttondot.pack(side=RIGHT)

            # Button Clear
            button_name = "Clear"
            self.buttonClear = Button(self.myContainer6,
                    command = self.buttonClearClick)
            self.buttonClear.configure(text=button_name)
            self.buttonClear.pack(side=BOTTOM)

            # Entry
            self.entryBox = Entry(self.myContainer5)
            self.entryBox.pack()
            
            
    def buttonHandler(self, argument1, argument2):
            print "You have clicked :", argument2
            self.calcTotal = self.calcTotal + argument1
            print self.calcTotal
            self.entryBox.configure(text=self.calcTotal)

    def buttonHandler_a(self, argument1, argument2):
            print "You have clicked :", argument2
            self.calcTotal = self.calcTotal +argument1
            print self.calcTotal

    def buttonClearClick(self):
            print "You have cleared the total."
            self.calcTotal = 0

print "\n"*100
print "Starting program Calc."
root = Tk()
myapp = CalcApp(root)
print "Starting even loop."
root.mainloop()
print "Finished executing event loop."

#End of Program
#------------------ CalcApp.py ---------------------------


From koko9991 at compuserve.de  Thu Aug 19 09:48:15 2004
From: koko9991 at compuserve.de (Konrad Koller)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:48:15 GMT
Subject: SciTE as editor for Python: No print formatting under LINUX.
Message-ID: <4124ad63.349803125@news.compuserve.de>

Under Windows print formatting (header, footer etc.) is OK. Under
LINUX it does not work. SciTEGlobal.properties state around line 352: 

# Printing - only works on Windows

Why? How is print formatting determined under LINUX (PLAT_GTK)?


From guettli at thomas-guettler.de  Wed Aug 18 10:33:15 2004
From: guettli at thomas-guettler.de (Thomas Guettler)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:33:15 +0200
Subject: favorite python web development tool?
References: <10i4nttktcvltdd@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.18.14.33.14.910084@thomas-guettler.de>

Am Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:43:22 -0400 schrieb mike:

> hi all -
> 
> 
> i'm fairly new to python, coming from a java servlet / velocity template 
> background.  i'm looking for a good python web development tool, and 
> hope to find some suggestions here.
> 
> given my background, webware+cheetah feels comfortingly familiar, and 
> i'm leaning toward it.  before i dive in, though, i'm wondering what you 
> experienced users think about it, compared to the other tools that are 
> out there.  eg, does the python environment have strengths that are 
> better exploited with something other than a servlet-like model?

Hi,

I use quixote (without PTL and Form library) and ZODB.

Many don't like it, but I do:

def foo(self, request):
    ret=[]
    ret.append(self.header())
    ret.append('<b>Hello World!</b>')
    ret.append(self.footer())
    return ''.join(ret)

100% Python

with the filter_output hook, every page
is checked with html-tidy during development.

Uncaught exceptions on the production
site get to me by email as soon as they occur.

A nightly unittest checks for errors.

HTH,
 Thomas




From wweston at att.net  Mon Aug  2 11:45:14 2004
From: wweston at att.net (wes weston)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 15:45:14 GMT
Subject: Trimming a string
In-Reply-To: <10gsmuieo65du5d@news.supernews.com>
References: <10gsmuieo65du5d@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <ektPc.165630$OB3.11201@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>

Double Dumbass on You wrote:
> I have a string that is 7 characters and represents file mode in UNIX/LINUX
> from rpm:
> 
> 0100755
> 
> I don't care about the 0100 portion, I am only interested in the file
> permissions portion which is 755.  How can I get three characters from the
> string starting at the right?  ( -OR- strip 4 characters from the left? )
> 
> 
DD,

 >>> x = "0100755"
 >>> print x[4:]
755

    Reading the tutorial is really time well spent.
wes



From timh at zute.net  Thu Aug 26 11:05:47 2004
From: timh at zute.net (Tim Hoffman)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 23:05:47 +0800
Subject: Web Application - User Management - RBAC
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2422.1093527057.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2422.1093527057.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <412dfc53@news.highway1.com.au>

Hi Martin

IYou probably know this already but the obvious response is to use Zope :-)

Tim

Martin wrote:

> I am putting together a simple web-app for construction of standard documents.
> Basically the app will present a form for inputting the variable content /
> overriding standard text and send back a complete .doc / .swx. The motivation
> for using a web app instead of templates is that I have found templates too
> brittle, and I would like to store the variable/overriding data in an SQL 
> backend.
> 
> I would like to implement RBAC(Role Based Access Control) in the app. How would
> one best go about that ? is there any code available(classes/frameworks) ? would
> one render pages and thereby options based on role or guard methods(i.e. call
> some kind of access control object and raise exceptions if an action is not
> allowed for the role, or perhaps derive all objects from an object that
> automatically handles such checks when a method is called ?) or some other
> approach ? I have looked at Webwares UserKit but it is apparently incomplete and
> frankly I can't figure out how it works.
> 
> I am planning to use CherryPy as a framework, but would be open to another 
> approach.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Martin
> 


From cemerick at snowtide.com  Sun Aug 15 09:34:30 2004
From: cemerick at snowtide.com (Chas Emerick)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 09:34:30 -0400
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <20040814153534.8AC171E4007@bag.python.org>
References: <20040814153534.8AC171E4007@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <D65D4928-EEBF-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>

On August 14, 2004 9:35:48 AM EDT, Paul Morrow wrote:

>    def blah(a, b):         # this is clearly a static method
>       pass
>
>    def blah(self, a, b):   # this is clearly an instance method
>       pass

Ouch.  Sorry, the arguments going into a function shouldn't have 
**anything** to do with the nature of that function.  Overloading their 
existence, lack thereof, or their names as a way of describing the 
function they are hung off of seems like a horrible way to go.  (Not to 
mention the fact that, at least conceptually, it is also violating that 
action-at-a-distance guideline...)

On Aug 14, 2004, at 11:35 AM, Paul Morrow wrote:

> Yes, sorry, but I'm in a pickle here.  I want (we need) the general 
> idea of decorators --- the realm of problems that decorators try to 
> solve --- to be made smaller.  They should not be used to declare a 
> method's type (static|instance|class).  Decorators may have some valid 
> purpose, but this is not one of them.

I would almost agree with you anywhere else.  However, since GvM has 
explicitly overruled the idea of something like:

def static blah (args):
	pass

we're left to find other routes by which to specify method types.  
Decorators neatly provide a generalized way to modify functions, so 
that's where static|instance|class modifications land.  I agree that 
that's slightly unfortunate at the moment, but it's probably 
necessitated by the history of using the horrible foo=staticmethod(foo) 
idiom.

I say 'at the moment', because I can imagine quite a few decorators 
that definitely touch on the notion of a function's type.  Consider:

@remote([remoteFuncName], [accessRestrictions], ...)
def static blah (args):
	pass

That might make blah available over xmlrpc, for example, though some 
route predefined in whatever xmlrpc library one happens to be using.  
Again, I'm no expert in python, so perhaps there's already similarly 
easy ways to configure such things with the libraries that already 
exist, but I think I got my point out there.

On , Hans Nowak wrote:

> This post wasn't deriding decorators; rather, it explains them, and 
> provides some examples of how to use them.  I do question their 
> usefulness, but I'm not deriding them, nor the "@" syntax.

Sorry if I mischaracterized your intent...I meant no harm.  :-)

- Chas Emerick



From fakeaddress at nowhere.org  Mon Aug  9 03:03:08 2004
From: fakeaddress at nowhere.org (Bryan Olson)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 07:03:08 GMT
Subject: ThreadingTCPServer, asyncore and Client-to-Client communication
In-Reply-To: <81efeef2.0408072015.60addf38@posting.google.com>
References: <81efeef2.0408072015.60addf38@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <MkFRc.1973$QJ3.747@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>

Dustin wrote:
[...]
 > If Client #1 connects, then that thread is consumed with listening for
 > data from that client.  If Client #2 connects, that client is on a
 > different thread, and therefore I don't see how I can have data sent
 > from Client #1 to be streamed down to Client #2.
[...]
 > I've looked at asyncore/asynchat, as well as ThreadingTCPServer... but
 > there's something I'm missing.  Is there a simple way to have an
 > object listen over two ports, and what comes into one port will be
 > sent down the another?

Yes; look up the select module in the standard library (on which
asyncore is built).

Also, note that sockets are not bound to a single thread.  If
you don't want to use select, you might have one thread that
reads from socket x and writes to socket y, and another thread
that reads from y and write to x. Some perfectly reasonable
systems have a reading thread and a writing thread for each
socket.


-- 
--Bryan


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 14:13:07 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 18:13:07 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Standard graph API?
References: <slrncik8tm.4g.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
Message-ID: <loom.20040823T201017-166@post.gmane.org>

Magnus Lie Hetland <mlh <at> furu.idi.ntnu.no> writes:
> Is there any interest in a (hypothetical) standard graph API (with
> 'graph' meaning a network, consisting of nodes and edges)?

I don't need one right now, but I know I have a few times in the past.  
Certainly seems like a good idea to me.  We've got sets as builtins now, no 
reason we shouldn't have a simple graph API, at least in the library.

Steve



From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Thu Aug  5 17:01:42 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 17:01:42 -0400
Subject: Decorator syntax
References: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA1A@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>
	<mailman.1226.1091731685.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<bLWdnTsjYbTiDI_cRVn-vg@giganews.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051601580.14462-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <10h581thifinoa6@news.supernews.com>


"Christopher T King" <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051601580.14462-100000 at ccc6.wpi.edu...
> On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Istvan Albert wrote:
>
> > The disagreement is caused by trying to achieve a lot of different
> > things with one feature.
> >
> > Thus the solution that is emerging is to cram everything in
> > front of the function definition.
>
> Agreed!  Exactly!  Most of what people seem to want from decorators are
> a way to specify function types, do type checking, and give functions
> attributes / metadata.  As I've said before, these are seperable problems
> and should be treated as such.  What little left over that can
> benefit from general-purpose decoraters will likely not be enough to form
> a major use case.

To walk back into the fray; I've got three programs that I checked
whether I could use decorators. The two that needed metadata
I couldn't; the other one (which is in the vague "sometime-maybe" category)
I certainly can, but it would be a gross misuse of the facility.

The thing about metadata is very simple. After managing to get to the
bottom of the domain model, I find that I need to associate metadata
with specific identifiers in certain classes. Note that this is with the
identifiers, NOT with the objects that are bound to the identifiers.
The metadata applies regardless of what object is bound to the
identifier, and regardless of whether it is bound in the class or instance.
(Of course, if there is an object bound to the identifier, it needs to
conform to what the metadata says, but that's a different issue.)

In the second program, I find a need to supply metadata that is
related to the class, and not to any particular identifier or object
in that class. (Of course, I also need to supply metadata for certain
identifiers.)

In the third program, I need a convenient way of putting function
definitions into instances; the decorator facility can do this as a
side effect. That's what I meant by a gross misuse of the facility,
though.

John Roth
>




From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 18:33:01 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 15:33:01 -0700
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>

Michael Sparks <michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk> wrote in message news:<cfdh4q$kpm$1 at nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>...
> The only downside I can see is that it might not be 100% obvious that it
> relates to the following function to newcomers to python.

This is a downside, but as far as I can tell, it's a downside of all
proposals that place the decorator declaration before the function. 
Since it looks like we're stuck with pre-def decorators, I wouldn't
really worry about this issue too much.

> In a syntax highlighted editor that also looks *alot* cleaner than
> beforehand. IMO, it also looks slightly cleaner than the @version - for
> one very, very simple reason - if you have a very big decorator block,
> for whatever reason, the "def" stands out clearly so you can skim where
> the function starts - even without syntax highlighting.

This is a great point.  I definitely agree -- it's much easier to find
the def than even the @ solution.  Compare:

@grammarrule('statement : expression')
@versioninfo("Added in 2.4")
@deprecated
@typeinfo(None)
def p_statement_expr(self, p):
    print p[1]

vs.

decorate:
    grammarrule('statement : expression')
    versioninfo("Added in 2.4")
    deprecated
    typeinfo(None)
def p_statement_expr(self, p):
    print p[1]

Of course, you could allow the same thing with '@':

@:
    grammarrule('statement : expression')
    versioninfo("Added in 2.4")
    deprecated
    typeinfo(None)
def p_statement_expr(self, p):
    print p[1]

But this looks really cryptic -- unlike 'decorate', '@' doesn't really
read as anything.  You probably know that the '@' "applies" to all the
lines below it, but unless you already know what '@' means, you
probably have no idea how it "applies".  The keyword version seems
much clearer on this point.


I know there were complaints before about this sort of indentation,
but I couldn't find them in python-dev and the comments in the wiki
don't discuss this in any detail.  Can anyone tell me why this
indentation syntax was dispreferred?  Specifically, I'm interested in
why this is so drastically different from the other paired blocks:
if/elif/else, try/except, try/finally, etc.  Also, there's a comment
in the wiki that says that there are technical problems with the
grammar if a block *starts* with an optional part.  Does this not
apply to the @ case (which also starts a block with an optional part)?

Thanks,

Steve


From b.niemann at betternet.de  Tue Aug 31 05:18:18 2004
From: b.niemann at betternet.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:18:18 +0200
Subject: From python to LaTeX in emacs on windows
In-Reply-To: <ufz63bta7.fsf@rk-speed-rugby.dk>
References: <u4qmkzwss.fsf@rk-speed-rugby.dk> <cgv4cs$21e$1@online.de>
	<ufz63bta7.fsf@rk-speed-rugby.dk>
Message-ID: <ch1foq$7lq$1@online.de>

Brian Elmegaard wrote:
> Benjamin Niemann <b.niemann at betternet.de> writes:
> 
> Thank for the help. I solved the problem by specifying the cp1252
> encoding for the python file by a magic comment and for the input data file. 
> 
> 
>>When you read the filecontents in python, you'll have the "raw" byte
>>sequence, in this case it is the UTF-8 encoding of unicode text. But
>>you probably want a unicode string. Use "text = unicode(data,
>>'utf-8')" where "data" is the filecontent you read. After processing
>>you probably want to write it back to a file. Before you do this, you
>>will have to convert the unicode string back to a byte sequence. Use
>>"data = text.encode('utf')".
>>
> 
> 
> This worked, but when I try to print text I get:
> UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode characters in position 9-10: ordinal not in range(128)
> Why is that?
The console only understands "byte streams". To print a unicode string, 
python tries to encode it using the default encoding, which is 'ascii' 
in your case. That encoding is not able to represent characters like 
'?', '?'.. which causes the exception. What I usually do is something like:
print text.encode("cp1251", "ignore")

The 'ignore' argument causes all characters, that cannot be represented 
in cp1251 to be silently dropped - which is ok, if the output is only 
used e.g. to track progress.

Don't know if there's a way to python to do this automagically for all 
unicodes passed to stdout...

> 
> 
>>Handling character encodings correctly *is* difficult. 
> 
> 
> What makes it difficult? The OS, the editor, python, latex?
At least for me it is difficult, because I'm used to think "1 byte = 1 
character" and when I read/write files I could simple handle the data as 
strings. Unless you begin to parse arbitrary data from the internet, 
there is little chance that you encounter text encodings different from 
your operating systems default and you start to believe that e.g. 
"ord('?') == 252" is a universal rule sent by the gods...
If you do it right, then you should convert all data that 'enters' your 
application as early as possible to unicode and encode it back when you 
print/save/send it - this way you'll only have to deal with unicodes in 
your application code. The most difficult part is probably changing old 
habbits ;)


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Tue Aug 10 15:34:13 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:34:13 -0400
Subject: Prothon is switching to the .NET platform
In-Reply-To: <10h7rittck6ct75@news.supernews.com>
References: <000401c47b59$32539220$0d01a8c0@MarkVaio> 
	<mailman.1257.1091769173.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061247130.22947-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<10h7lb21dhbuc12@news.supernews.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061533250.25906-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<10h7rittck6ct75@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408101527020.9982-100000@ccc2.wpi.edu>

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, John Roth wrote:

> The place where this gets really ugly is inserting functions
> into the instances. They have to be created at the module
> level, and then inserted into the instance by a module level
> function (somewhat similar to the way classmethod,
> staticmethod and property work).

Oh, I wouldn't even attempt that until Python supported
"def object.method():" syntax (like Prothon does).  Using my derive class, 
you could acheieve a similar effect though:

 class my_derived_class(derive):
     def some_new_function(self):
         <do stuff>
 my_derived_object = my_derived_class(my_prototype_object)

You aren't able to insert function definitions after the derived object is 
created using this method (something I imag, but most function 
definitions are premeditated anyways.



From tim.hochberg at ieee.org  Tue Aug 10 13:12:28 2004
From: tim.hochberg at ieee.org (Tim Hochberg)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:12:28 -0700
Subject: pro python paper
In-Reply-To: <3064b51d.0408100549.213dad5@posting.google.com>
References: <305aa162.0408091905.5bce8f9a@posting.google.com>
	<3064b51d.0408100549.213dad5@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfavm0$9md$1@sea.gmane.org>

beliavsky at aol.com wrote:
[SNIP]
> 
> It is more honest and credible to admit that a Python program often is
> slower than one in a compiled language, but that reduced programming
> time in Python often outweighs this deficit.

That's not been my experience. Most of the stuff that I write in Python 
would have been slower had I written it in C/Fortran etc. Now before you 
pack me off to the loony bin, let me explain. First off I know most of 
the tricks to make Python do things fast, at least in the problem 
domains I care about. Second, in most cases, I'm dealing with situations 
where, the problem is understood (if I'm lucky) but the optimal 
algorithm for solving it is not known. Finally, I don't generally have 
unlimited time to devote to any given problem.

With these conditions (unkown algorithm, finite time), Python often 
comes out ahead of "faster" languages. The reduced programming time 
means that I typically end up with a closer to optimal algorithm and a 
faster algorithm is generally more important for speed than a faster 
language.

Of course these conditions don't always apply. And to certain extent I'm 
guessing as to what kind of code I would have ended up with had I 
attemped a given program in C/Fortran, but I think I have a pretty good 
feel for what it would have turned out like.

As for the paper the parent post referring to, I haven't read it and 
have no opinion on its claims.

-tim



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 13:12:08 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 03:12:08 +1000
Subject: Confused about pep 318
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051249050.10473-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051249050.10473-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204080510123f5faa93@mail.gmail.com>

> > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/thread.html#45516
> > was over a month earlier.
> 
> That thread reaches no consensus, other than, in his sole post in the
> thread, Guido stating "I would love to see an implementation of this
> idea."  Nothing about "this is going to be in 2.4a2, anybody vehemently
> opposed to it?"  Like I said, the go-ahead was given privately.

None of the decorator discussions _ever_ reached a conclusion. As mwh put it,
"bike-shed-the-ultimate". At the end of the day, Guido's the one who makes
these decisions. His decision was that the @ syntax should go into 2.4a2.

As far as "private go-ahead", I've lost count of the number of people who
seem to think that this is somehow an issue. Would the bitching have been
seriously that much better if, half an hour before I committed the patch, 
Guido had posted a note saying pretty much what I forwarded on from him?
If so, why? Guido followed up to my note pretty much straight away confirming
it. Or would it have someone been better if Guido had done the CVS commit?

Yes, it would have been nice if PEP-0318 was updated in advance of this. I 
made an effort, but have run out of resources to work on it. If no-one else
gets to it before me, I will work on it again next week. But, suprise, Python's
a volunteer effort. No-one's paying me to do this, or Guido, or anyone else.
If someone wants to offer to pay me, or someone else, to actually do all this,
*great*.


From BruceEckel at MailBlocks.com  Thu Aug  5 12:55:19 2004
From: BruceEckel at MailBlocks.com (Bruce Eckel)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 10:55:19 -0600
Subject: Quixote vs. Preppy
References: <1779534897.20040805105519@MailBlocks.com>
Message-ID: <BruceEckel-09f7tAaGIG0Eeua8tsLw0m/w8ncTXqz@mailblocks.com>

I'm looking for something "closer to Python" to develop certain types
of web systems (rather than going away, forgetting, then coming back
and struggling with the Z-shaped learning curve for anything more than
trivial things in Zope). Based on the Quixote presentation at Pycon,
that looks quite interesting ("web development as if you were a Python
programmer"), but someone also suggested Preppy from Reportlabs:
http://www.reportlab.org/preppy.html

Can anyone compare/contrast these? Thanks.

Bruce Eckel




From http  Sat Aug 21 20:18:57 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 17:18:57 -0700
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <7xk6vsgh3i.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss) writes:
> Will Python (and dynamic languages in general) be someday close to
> compiled languages speed?

They already are (Lisp, etc.)

> What will be the future of Psyco, Pypy, Starkiller, Ironpython and all
> the other projects currently on development?

Hopefully they will speed up Python.


From martin at v.loewis.de  Sat Aug  7 10:18:03 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 16:18:03 +0200
Subject: decorators and multimethods
In-Reply-To: <4edc17eb.0408062340.71ab270f@posting.google.com>
References: <4edc17eb.0408062340.71ab270f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <4114E49B.6040806@v.loewis.de>

Michele Simionato wrote:

> foo = Generic_Function()
> 
> @addmethod(object, object, object)
> def foo(_, x, y, z):
>     return 'default'

On a second note, I would probably prefer a different notation

foo = Generic_Function()

@foo.overload(object, object, object)
def foo(_, x, y, z):
     return 'default'

This, of course, requires changes to Generic_Function, but
they could be as simple as

   def overload(self, *types):
     def decorator(f):
       self[types] = f
       return self
     return decorator

Regards,
Martin


From Domoran at yahoo.de  Fri Aug 13 07:49:09 2004
From: Domoran at yahoo.de (Mathias Mamsch)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:49:09 +0200
Subject: Problems with PyGILState_Ensure () and PyGILState_Release ()
Message-ID: <cfi9rv$ijq$1@fuerst.cs.uni-magdeburg.de>

Hi all,

i am writing a python extension in c++.   In the extension a c++ thread
calls back into python. I did it like this:

---- c++ code ----
PyGILState_STATE gstate;
gstate = PyGILState_Ensure ();

... do some work ...
// call the python callback (Func)
result = PyEval_CallObject(Func, arglist);
... so some cleanup ...

PyGILState_Release (gstate);
return
-----------------

the callback is executed properly, but the PyGILState_Release gives me the
following error:
"Fatal Python error: PyThreadState_Delete: tstate is still current"

What can be wrong here? Any suggestions?
In my understanding this error should not occur ... Is this a known bug
maybe? I am using Python 2.4a1 under windows.

Thanks in advance, Mathias Mamsch





From eric_brunel at despammed.com  Thu Aug 19 12:11:14 2004
From: eric_brunel at despammed.com (Eric Brunel)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 18:11:14 +0200
Subject: Tkinter
References: <8e16829.0408190703.1c6845d7@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cg2j02$3a0$1@news-reader1.wanadoo.fr>

Roland wrote:
> Salut,
> 
> 
>       J'utilise LNUX RedHat 9.0 et je n'arrive pas ? utilser Tkinter
> car ? chaque fois que j'essaye de faire executer un code dans lequel
> j'ai import? le module Tkinter, j'obtient:
>                      from tkinter import*
>                      ImportError: No module named tkinter  .
> Je croyais que ce module ?tait int?gr? ? python.
>             AIDEZ-MOI
>  Merci

Pour info, il existe un newsgroup fr.comp.lang.python en fran?ais et avec plein 
de gens sympathiques. N'h?site pas ? y poser tes questions: ici, c'est plutot un 
newsgroup anglophone et tu risques d'avoir moins de r?ponses interessantes.
-- 
- Eric Brunel <eric (underscore) brunel (at) despammed (dot) com> -
PragmaDev : Real Time Software Development Tools - http://www.pragmadev.com



From foo at bar.net  Sat Aug 28 23:59:08 2004
From: foo at bar.net (Mac)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 20:59:08 -0700
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.29.03.59.02.719953@bar.net>

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:56:06 -0700, Xah Lee wrote:

> Larry Wall and Cults
> (Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
> 200012
> 
> Dear readers,
> 

[snip]

> Surely you have heard of Adolf Hitler
> and his atrocities of genocide? I must alert you, that a single person
> couldn't commit such a crime.

Wow, Godwin's law invoked on the first post of the thread.

--Mac



From me at privacy.net  Wed Aug 25 18:51:27 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Richard Hanson)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:51:27 -0700
Subject: MSI Installer Problem: can't install 2.4a2 on new install of
	Win2kSP2
References: <vnipi0ldsgchqqiti1q19qtd5d70ju17p0@4ax.com>
	<412d0156$1_1@newspeer2.tds.net>
Message-ID: <v64qi0dhifgjo00n5pdqb07ra8md1sjgvp@4ax.com>

"drs" wrote:

>"Richard Hanson" <me at privacy.net> wrote in message
>news:vnipi0ldsgchqqiti1q19qtd5d70ju17p0 at 4ax.com...
>
>> Am I overlooking something simple...?
>
>How about SP3, or even 4?

That's a thought. But, as I alluded to in my somewhat lengthy post,
2.4a2 worked with this OEM Win2kSP2 *before* the installation "died"
last Friday.

I have an SP3 CD, so that's doable; I'm on a slightly flaky dialup, so
DL'ing SP4 would be a bit... uh... uncomfortable. :-)

Also, isn't there the general feeling that Win2kSP2 is about as good
as Windows gets (got)? (Aside from the EULA issues; just on the
technical merits?)

Thanks for the idea, though -- much appreciated. I may well try SP3 if
I remain at an impasse.

PS to original post: Further testing shows that the Python command
line (console) is broken, too. Some things sorta work (e.g., "import
sys"); most don't (e.g., "import decimal").

Python-withdrawals-are-painfully y'rs,
Richard

-- 
email works if unmunged:
sick<PERI0D>ole<P0INT>fart<PIE_DEC0_SYNTAX>newsguy<MARK>com


From heikowu at ceosg.de  Wed Aug 11 02:52:57 2004
From: heikowu at ceosg.de (Heiko Wundram)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:52:57 +0200
Subject: rsa implementation question
In-Reply-To: <1092200894.4119a9beb1978@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
References: <1092200894.4119a9beb1978@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <200408110852.57937.heikowu@ceosg.de>

Am Mittwoch, 11. August 2004 07:08 schrieb Ajay:
> just like to know how the RSA implementation in the pcrypto package works.
> Does it operate in blocks, if yes, what is the size of the blocks?

RSA (Rivest-Shamir-Adleman encryption) never works in "blocks", as there is no 
notion of blocks in public key cryptography, there's only the notion of doing 
an operation on plaintext modulo a large prime n.

Now, you could call (log2 n)/8 the block size in bytes of RSA for a certain 
encryption prime, but I'd never talk of block sizes with RSA, as normally you 
don't use RSA (or public-key cryptography in general) to encrypt plaintext a 
block at a time, but rather to encrypt a random string of bytes [len(s) <= 
(log2 n)/8 for the modulo prime of the algorithm], which is used as the key 
for a normal symmetric encryption algorithm, to which you feed the blocks.

Thus, the receiver (and also the sender) only has to make one expensive 
calculation (retrieving the key from the encrypted RSA packet), whereas 
decrypting the cyphertext (or encrypting it) is done using a symmetric 
cypher, which has the advantage of being much faster to compute than a 
public-key cypher.

Anyway, if you're interested in how symmetric and/or public-key cryptography 
work, read up on:

http://www.cacr.math.uwaterloo.ca/hac/

especially chapters 7 and 8.

Heiko.


From gherron at islandtraining.com  Fri Aug 20 12:42:01 2004
From: gherron at islandtraining.com (Gary Herron)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:42:01 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <200408200935.51189.gherron@islandtraining.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<200408200935.51189.gherron@islandtraining.com>
Message-ID: <200408200942.01215.gherron@islandtraining.com>

On Friday 20 August 2004 09:35 am, Gary Herron wrote:
> My vote:
>   J2 J2 and J2
> because it puts everything in the correct position (meaning in the
> same position as the pie syntax), but still *LOOKS* like python.
>
> Keyword could remain "decorate", but I'd be fid just about anything
> acceptable.

Yuck -- I usually proof read better than that. Should be "I'd find
just about anything acceptable"

> Gary Herron




From http  Mon Aug 16 03:42:39 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 00:42:39 -0700
Subject: random / lists
References: <cfl5d1$f8p$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<zEDTc.210024$OB3.89400@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
	<cformj$vso$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <7xr7q7edg0.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

"M. Clift" <noone at here.com> writes:
> What I want is a system that controls the direction in a generated list. If
> the user selects a number a letter is choosen for each number from at random
> from an array. That's fine and easy to do. The hard part is, is that no
> letter can be repeated with only one letter interveining and the letters can
> only follow each other under certain rules.

Is this a homework assignment?


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 24 00:43:38 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 00:43:38 -0400
Subject: On consensus decision-making (was Re: Alternative decorator
 syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WEDONE?)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2259.1093320891.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2153.1093185119.5135.python-list@python.org>	<z-adnRDpSpoTJrXcRVn-iw@powergate.ca>	<cgdbi8$5re$1@panix2.panix.com>
	<CsmdnSOL1aXP3LfcRVn-vg@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.2259.1093320891.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <tZOdnSEokOGcWrfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>

Anthony Baxter wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:13:15 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> 
>>Anyway, I suppose this means that the selection will be from
>>amongst A1, C1, and J2, each with an implementation, each with
>>a sizable number of proponents.  Wish the man well. ;-)
> 
> As I've posted a couple of times, the C1 implementation is old, and is
> not complete. There's a lot more work to be done on it to make sure
> that it covers anything. I've still seen no-one put up their hand to
> offer to finish it, which is a shame.

Until very recently, there appeared to be a resounding "NO"
from the BDFL himself to any thought that C1 might ever
be accepted.  It was rejected early and rather explicitly,
if I recall correctly.

Given that, it shouldn't be surprising in the least that no one
has put up their hand to do something which would appear to
be a waste of time.

Has anything really changed?  Would it now be correct to say
that C1 has a serious chance of being accepted if someone would
just update the implementation to the state and quality (?) of
the other two?

-Peter


From benn at cenix-bioscience.com  Thu Aug 12 05:56:49 2004
From: benn at cenix-bioscience.com (Neil Benn)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:56:49 +0200
Subject: Pyhton Interpreter Startup time
Message-ID: <411B3EE1.9080002@cenix-bioscience.com>

Hello,

          I'm looking at a small app which would need a very quick 
startup time for the Python interpreter.  It doesn't do much (copying 
and caching of files, no GUI) but I need the Python interpreter to start 
up very quickly (<1 second on a Windows box).  Is there a way to have a 
'stripped' down Python interpreter which can start up very quickly on a 
windows box.  Once thing I was thinking of was to use PyExe to make a 
quick startup (does it compile down to C code, therefore not using the 
Python interpreter at runtime?).  Is this a possible solution?

    I observe that the second time I start python it starts up quicker 
but I'm assuming that this is dependent on the environment and can't be 
relied upon (or something like that).

    Thanks, in advance for your help.

Cheers,

Neil

-- 

Neil Benn
Senior Automation Engineer
Cenix BioScience
BioInnovations Zentrum
Tatzberg 47
D-01307
Dresden
Germany

Tel : +49 (0)351 4173 154
e-mail : benn at cenix-bioscience.com
Cenix Website : http://www.cenix-bioscience.com



From adurdin at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 07:46:51 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:46:51 +1000
Subject: Best programming language
In-Reply-To: <cfsqfu$co3$1@news.onet.pl>
References: <mailman.1718.1092639914.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cfpqlf$7sv$1@news.onet.pl>
	<mailman.1723.1092650117.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<873c2ndizt.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>
	<cfsqfu$co3$1@news.onet.pl>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a040817044631d480af@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:35:26 +0200, lopex <lopexx at autograf.pl> wrote:
> 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de wrote:
> >
> > the best language is of course Scheme
> 
> Another flamewar ?
> should I claim Ruby is.. ?

The obvious answer, of course, is that on the newsgroup/mailing list
for language X, define "best programming language" to be X. It saves a
lot of combustion :)


From richardd at hmgcc.gov.uk  Fri Aug 13 10:32:34 2004
From: richardd at hmgcc.gov.uk (Richard)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:32:34 +0100
Subject: Difference between readlines() and iterating on a file object?
Message-ID: <411cd102$1@mail.hmgcc.gov.uk>

Hi,

Can anyone tell me what the difference is between

for line in file.readlines( ):

and

for line in file:

where file is a file object returned from an open( ) call?

I thought that they did the same thing, but the code I am using it in has
this line called more than once on the same file object and the second time
it is ran gives different results for each.

What is the difference in implementation?

Cheers

Rich




From sandysj at juno.com  Thu Aug  5 12:57:08 2004
From: sandysj at juno.com (Jeff Sandys)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 16:57:08 GMT
Subject: I got it! How to force a single number to be a tuple
References: <mailman.1140.1091637138.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <411266E4.80AD4D3C@juno.com>

y=2,
The comma makes tuples.
y=2, 3.0, 4.5,
also works.

Are you sure that you want a list of numbers as an immutable tuple?
Tuples are intended for hetrogenious sequences like a data record,
(like y=2, 3.0, 4.5 is a record of say quantity, price and weight, 
and y=3.0, 2, 4.5 is a completely different thing).
Tuples can be used as an index in a dictionary.

A list is mutable, intended for a homogenious sequence, the elements 
can be changed and a list can not be used a dictionary index.
(like y=[2, 3.0, 4.5] is a list of the weights of three items and 
y=[3.0, 2, 4.5] has the same meaning)

Thanks,
Jeff Sandys

Jinming Xu wrote:
> 
> Sorry for the previous message. It's really a simple question and I have
> solved it myself.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jinming
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Folks,
> 
> I have a number sequence, which is put into a tuple like this:
> 
> y=2, 3.0, 4.5
> 
> I can manipulate the sequence as a tuple when it has more than 1 number. But
> when the sequence has only 1 number, like
> 
> y=2
> 
> I have trouble to manipulate it as a tuple.  I guess there must be a way to
> forece a single number to be a tuple. Could anyone please tell me that?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jinming


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 23:26:03 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:26:03 +1000
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed2040824200256aff0f0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040824200256aff0f0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040824202674628eb5@mail.gmail.com>

I forgot one other point I meant to add - think about when the body of
a class gets executed, vs when the body of a function gets executed.
The former is at compile time, the latter is when the function is
used.


From martin at koekenberg.net  Fri Aug 20 04:28:22 2004
From: martin at koekenberg.net (Martin Koekenberg)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:28:22 +0200
Subject: TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'NoneType' and 'str'
Message-ID: <dddbi0dicg77fea6lfu74v3ab03gi3fjd3@4ax.com>

Hello,

Ik get the following error when I install a new Python software
package such as Zope or PIL.

This is what I get whem I 'make'  Zope :

running build_ext
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/local/zope/Zope-2.7.2-0/setup.py", line 1091, in ?
    distclass=ZopeDistribution,
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/distutils/core.py", line 149, in
setup
    dist.run_commands()
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/distutils/dist.py", line 907, in
run_commands
    self.run_command(cmd)
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/distutils/dist.py", line 927, in
run_command
    cmd_obj.run()
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/distutils/command/build.py", line
107, in run
    self.run_command(cmd_name)
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/distutils/cmd.py", line 333, in
run_command
    self.distribution.run_command(command)
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/distutils/dist.py", line 927, in
run_command
    cmd_obj.run()
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/distutils/command/build_ext.py", line
244, in run
    customize_compiler(self.compiler)
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/distutils/sysconfig.py", line 159, in
customize_compiler
    cpp = cc + " -E"           # not always
TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'NoneType' and 'str'
make: *** [build] Error 1                


./configure has finisched withoud problems.

System : Fedora Core 2
Python 2.3.3


What is wrong here ?

Greetings,

Martin Koekenberg


From jjl at pobox.com  Sat Aug 14 16:16:27 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 14 Aug 2004 21:16:27 +0100
Subject: Decorator "platform"
References: <2nsoofF49frcU1@uni-berlin.de> <87zn50nll4.fsf@pobox.com>
	<vsqdnan9bfMMaIbcRVn-hg@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <87hdr5mq5g.fsf@pobox.com>

Doug Holton <insert at spam.here> writes:

> John J. Lee wrote:
> > God help us. <0.5 wink>
> 
> I'm seeing a pattern.  You respond without reading.  See
> http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/PythonDecoratorLibrary

OK, brevity is the soul of wit and all that, but I see I didn't
succeed in communicating my point.

I don't doubt the utility, on a case-by-case basis, of some of the
uses of decorators that people are devising, and will continue to
devise.  I do fear that this is a pressure towards 'Babel-ization' of
the language.

I don't honestly know whether that fear is justified -- it's based
mostly on listening to people on this newsgroup who have posted about
their experiences with Lisp macros.


John


From ed-no at spam-eepatents.com  Wed Aug  4 13:43:22 2004
From: ed-no at spam-eepatents.com (Ed Suominen)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 10:43:22 -0700
Subject: web resources to explain why Python is best?
References: <41111c24$0$26982$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com>
Message-ID: <9dqdnVTDTfC3vYzcRVn-iQ@centurytel.net>

davout wrote:

> Can anybody point me at some web resources that explain why Python is
> better than Perl, TCL, Ruby etc?

How about my very own posting "Goodbye TCL" on comp.lang.tcl and the 114
other articles in the thread it started?

http://tinyurl.com/678yq


From ahmado at gmail.com  Mon Aug 30 15:01:52 2004
From: ahmado at gmail.com (Omer  Ahmad)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 12:01:52 -0700
Subject: xml.dom.minidom - documentElement vs. childNodes
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2621.1093888223.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgvtj0$716@odah37.prod.google.com>

Hi there,

This might not directly answer your question, but if you are doing
simple XML documents, check out effbot.org (Frederic Lundt's home
page).  I use his elementtree class which is very very quick and easy.
I was using minidom before but I foudn that it did everything I needed
for simple dom documents.

www.effbot.org

I use the tool for  writting logs.. much better than a text file.
Good Luck,

Omer



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 04:43:43 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 18:43:43 +1000
Subject: Why return None?
In-Reply-To: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408250143233e4fa@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:26:26 GMT, Martin DeMello
<martindemello at yahoo.com> wrote:
> It seems to be a fairly common pattern for an object-modifying method to
> return None - however, this is often quite inconvenient.

list.reverse() modifies the list in place. The python idiom is that
these don't return a reference to the modified list. Although note the
new list.sorted() method in 2.4...

Anthony


From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Sun Aug 29 16:51:21 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 22:51:21 +0200
Subject: regex into str
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408290203530.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<mailman.2571.1093744862.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgt5hf$8lv$06$2@news.t-online.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408292005500.1170-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <cgtfk8$bp7$07$1@news.t-online.com>

Hi,

> Programming causes bugs. That's not a reason to disallow programming.

Well, with that attitude I suggest you start coding in assembler - all
freedom you can imagine, no rules. Every bit is subject to your personal
interpretation. Or C, which is basically assembler with more names and
curly braces.

But for some reasons people started developing and using higher level
languages, that forbid certain techniques - and everytime somebody yelled
"I want to be free to do what I want" - python has its very special case of
that with its whitspace-dependend blocking structure that frequently causes
people confronted with it to reject python as language.

People started using higher level languages because they actually _did_
decrease the amount of problems programming caused - so the projects could
get more eleaborated. 

Don't get me wrong - there is a lot of decisions to be made in language
design, and lots of them are debatable - python is no exception from that
rule. But as I said before - allowing builtins to be manipulated aks for
more trouble than its worth. Imagine a len() that always returns 1 - no
matter what you feed it. Or _if_ you're allowed to change builtin-types
constructors - then who is to decide which of the 5 different string
implementations in the various modules imported is the one to use?

The only thing you really need is a simple constructor for your undoubtly
interesting and useful string-derived class. Overloading "" as the string
constructor isn't possible - for the simple reason that only a statically
typed language could distinct the usage of the "classic" constructor vs.
your enhanced version.

So what you could do is to modify the builtins-_dict_ - that is possible -
to contain a new constructor s in it - then creating your strings is just

s('foo')

Which is only three chars  more than usual string creation.

Another approach would be some macro-mechanism - but python doesn't have
such facility builtin - and I'm not aware that there is a widely adopted
3rd-party module/extenion out in the wild. 

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From asif at go-away-spammer.com  Tue Aug 24 17:10:53 2004
From: asif at go-away-spammer.com (Player)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 22:10:53 +0100
Subject: Begginers questions on different distributions of py
References: <cgga5m$v1n$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <cggat2$vkh$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Also if I install the activestates build or the python websites build, will
I need the Win32all extensions, due to me eventually wanting to build
windows applications ???

Thanks in advance one again for any help :)

M.B

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP 8.0

iQA/AwUBQSuu2y/z2sM4qf2WEQIFbACg+zTujtlW2PUVrmYNJ1oG/gxwvjgAni+O
D0cFAl0WofjPNuB41dggJhig
=XsEY
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Wed Aug  4 09:53:09 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 09:53:09 -0400
Subject: EOL - scanning single-quoted string
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1123.1091626404.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <1091625659.4110e2bb6db73@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
	<4110E3B3.8040709@geochemsource.com>
	<mailman.1123.1091626404.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408040940470.8445-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu>

On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Ajay wrote:

> i got the escape character bit, but i still get an error
> >>> str='/My Documents/um_ajay.xml'
> >>> re.subn('/', '\\', str)

Ah... regex quoting issues.  The '\\' makes a single '\' appear in the 
string, but being a regex, a single '\' in a string is again interpreted 
as a backslash.  You will either have to write '\\\\' or use a raw string, 
r'\\'.  Raw strings pass backslashes untouched, so you only need to 
backslash it once for the regex.

However, the best solution for your problem is not to use regexes, but to 
use the os.path module:

>>> from os.path import normpath, abspath
>>> str = '/My Documents/um_ajay.xml'
>>> normpath(str)
'\\My Documents\\um_ajay.xml'
>>> abspath(str)
'C:\\My Documents\\um_ajay.xml'

normpath() 'tidies up' the path, a task which includes correcting path 
seperators, amoung other things.  abspath() does the same thing as 
normpath(), but also resolves relative paths into absolute ones.  Always 
look to os.path when doing anything involving paths; it probably has the 
function you want, and is portable across platforms.



From roy at panix.com  Mon Aug  9 11:27:05 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 11:27:05 -0400
Subject: Maybe, just maybe @decorator syntax is ok after all
References: <du7n017ni6o.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>
	<b840abf4.0408080422.44fcf41c@posting.google.com>
	<4116b725$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<mailman.1397.1092064647.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-800060.11270509082004@reader1.panix.com>

Michael Ekstrand <python at elehack.net> wrote:

> Much of that can be accomplished stylistically in the way comments are 
> written (granted, that doesn't accomplish much for existing code that 
> doesn't follow such conventions). But, for example, in my C/C++ code, I 
> always have comments before my functions like so:
> 
> /*
>  * FooClass::foo()
>  *
>  * Fooifies the FooClass instance
>  */
> int FooClass::foo(int parm1, char parm2, char *spam_name)

The problem there is that you need to repeat the name of the function.  
This was one of the very reasons given for wanting to get away from

def foo ():
   pass

foo = classmethod (foo)

in the first place.  Not the only reason, by far, but certainly one of 
them.


From anthony_barker at hotmail.com  Tue Aug  3 15:54:19 2004
From: anthony_barker at hotmail.com (Anthony_Barker)
Date: 3 Aug 2004 12:54:19 -0700
Subject: Python executable on Windows
References: <410e91ce$0$58816$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk>
	<410e93a1$0$58815$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk>
	<410e95e4$0$65605$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <899f842.0408031154.5059d273@posting.google.com>

McMillan Installer can create a single .exe. Basically it explodes
each time you run in your temp directory.

http://paulbaranowski.org/Downloads/installer_6a2.tar.gz

Anthony


From martindemello at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 25 03:07:27 2004
From: martindemello at yahoo.com (Martin DeMello)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 07:07:27 GMT
Subject: functional library
References: <0uBWc.191260$M95.165005@pd7tw1no>
	<3b2846c4.0408240210.5803b8b4@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <PUWWc.211491$gE.177090@pd7tw3no>

John Crichton <crichton314 at btinternet.com> wrote:
> Hi Martin,
> 
> You could try the Xoltar toolkit at
> http://www.xoltar.org/languages/python.html

Thanks!

martin


From inkedmn at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 15:41:17 2004
From: inkedmn at gmail.com (Brett  Kelly)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 12:41:17 -0700
Subject: Simple exceptions question
In-Reply-To: <f8097096.0408161106.6292244f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfr2kt$n4s@odak26.prod.google.com>

You could use multiple print statements in your function (and still
achieve the same output)

like:
print a[10],
print b[10],
print c[10]

etc.

kinda hackish, i know

Nick Jacobson wrote:
> Say I have a function foo that throws an IndexError exception, and I
> want to handle it:
>
> def foo(a, b, c):
>     print a[10], b[10], c[10] #, etc.
>
> def main():
>     #define vars
>     try:
>         foo(a, b, c)
>     except IndexError:
>         print "Accessed array ", x, " out of bounds!" #???
>
> When the exception is thrown, I don't know what triggered it!  a, b,
> or c?
>
> I could put a series of if statements in the except clause, but that
> defeats the whole purpose of having the exception, right?  Is there a
> better way?
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> --Nick



From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Thu Aug 26 12:29:05 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:29:05 GMT
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2430.1093532033.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <5n3si0hceqdh99u28ntuc57t68uah557gt@4ax.com>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 00:53:51 +1000, Anthony Baxter
<anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:40:18 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
>> >IMO, to change it inside of a function def should be (but isn't) as easy
>> >as...
>> >
>> >   >>> def foo():
>> >   ...     """ I am foo """
>> >   ...     __doc__ = __doc__ + 'indeed'
>> >
>> >Paul
>> 
>> Yes.  Not only do I follow, but I think we came to exactly the same
>> place, from very different directions, and coming from what I sense is
>> very different backgrounds.
>> 
>> Its just that I don't think many others seem to find that as
>> interesting as I happen to.
>
>Not so much that, as running out of ways to restate myself. The
>proposed syntax above still requires magic handling of double-under
>variables in a function, and a new namespace. I can't see how you can
>think that this is a _good_ thing.

Googling on "function namespace" is interesting.

Subject to my interpretation of what I am accessing:

Common Lisp has 'em, Scheme don't.

Talked about a lot in the context of XML in ways I am not sure are
relevant.

Nested scopes is the beginning of their introduction into Python - as
I am reading a cite from Dive Into Python.  So of course what I have
been driving at all along, is some extension to the the nested scope
mechanism.  Yes. I'm talking through my backside.  Darts at the wall
language design, I call it.

Art



From ksenia at ksenia.nl  Fri Aug 20 04:41:48 2004
From: ksenia at ksenia.nl (Ksenia Marasanova)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:41:48 +0300
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <0C77C7530EA52A4EBD1C47C80D1D291E17DE2A@sbs.GuidanceBV.local>
References: <0C77C7530EA52A4EBD1C47C80D1D291E17DE2A@sbs.GuidanceBV.local>
Message-ID: <C650D1CA-F284-11D8-968C-000A957911BC@ksenia.nl>

>> voting on _alternatives_ to A.
>
> If we're only voting on alternatives, I would change my vote (J2 J2 A2)
> to (J2 J2 J2).

The same for me, in that case please change my vote (J2 J2 A1) to (J2 
J2 J2).

Ksenia



From Sibylle.Koczian at Bibliothek.Uni-Augsburg.de  Wed Aug  4 05:03:49 2004
From: Sibylle.Koczian at Bibliothek.Uni-Augsburg.de (Sibylle Koczian)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 11:03:49 +0200
Subject: MySQLdb select
In-Reply-To: <ggbvg05qaa0n04675jof14l8oo1c908pkl@4ax.com>
References: <lGIOc.4961$AY5.4762@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>	<ceg5ca$ftn$1@newshispeed.ch>	<9RPOc.2792$LI7.1058@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>	<21064255.0408020908.41357e52@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1064.1091481067.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2n9gmuFuhk8kU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<ggbvg05qaa0n04675jof14l8oo1c908pkl@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <2nbn3pFv4865U1@uni-berlin.de>

Dennis Lee Bieber schrieb:
> On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 15:02:21 +0200, Sibylle Koczian
> <Sibylle.Koczian at Bibliothek.Uni-Augsburg.de> declaimed the following in
> comp.lang.python:
> 
> 
> 
>>I'm quite surprised that it works the other way - but it does. Could it 
>>be that previous versions of MySQLdb raised an exception with the other form
>>
> 
>  
> 	Well, from the MySQLdb code itself, we have these little
> comments...
> 
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-
>     def literal(self, o):
>         """
> 
>         If o is a single object, returns an SQL literal as a string.
>         If o is a non-string sequence, the items of the sequence are
>         converted and returned as a sequence.
> 
>         Non-standard.
> 
>         """

I don't see where "literal" comes into this?

> -=-=-=-=-=-=-
>     def execute(self, query, args=None):
> 
>         """Execute a query.
>         
>         query -- string, query to execute on server
>         args -- optional sequence or mapping, parameters to use with
> query.
> 
>         Note: If args is a sequence, then %s must be used as the
>         parameter placeholder in the query. If a mapping is used,
>         %(key)s must be used as the placeholder.
> 
>         Returns long integer rows affected, if any
> 
>         """

That would confirm that a single string or number is not a correct args 
parameter, wouldn't it? There is nothing here like "if args is no 
sequence, it is treated as a tuple of length one" - but this seems to be 
what happens.

Koczian


From ksenia at ksenia.nl  Wed Aug 18 12:02:43 2004
From: ksenia at ksenia.nl (Ksenia Marasanova)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:02:43 +0300
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <09F9DC18-F130-11D8-968C-000A957911BC@ksenia.nl>

> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer??

31

I use Python mostly for web development (with Quixote as a framework).
Pitty that can't use Python in Flash instead of Actionscript and as a 
Javascript replacement ;-)



From mike at skew.org  Tue Aug  3 00:57:56 2004
From: mike at skew.org (Mike Brown)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 22:57:56 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [XML-SIG] value error when parsing XML
In-Reply-To: <410B7277.3000609@mail.usyd.edu.au> "from Ajay Brar at Jul 31,
	2004 08:20:39 pm"
Message-ID: <200408030457.i734vuQ6058587@chilled.skew.org>

Ajay Brar wrote:
> i get a value error when parsing an xml file. This is because it can't 
> find the DTD -
> ValueError: unknown url type: ../um_xml/um.dtd
> 
>  From what i have discovered in the archives, this happens when your XML 
> and DTD file are not in your current directory
> i have the directory structure
> home
>       user - this is where i am running the script from
>       um_xml- this is where the xml and dtd are
> 
> can someone please tell me how i can workaround this problem. the script 
> executes fine when the xml and dtd files are in user/. But i don't 
> really want to put them there.
> any ideas?
> 

The "current directory" / "where you are running the script from"
has no bearing on the interpretation of URLs in the document (not
directly, anyway).

If both files are in the same location, you only need to refer to the
DTD via the URL um.dtd (no add'l path info prepended to it).


From justin__devine at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 30 14:04:17 2004
From: justin__devine at hotmail.com (Justin)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 11:04:17 -0700
Subject: Size of a remote URL
In-Reply-To: <41336bb1$0$8079$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <cgvq71$vfm@odah37.prod.google.com>

Yeah just HTTP



From ben at transversal.com  Wed Aug 25 05:05:05 2004
From: ben at transversal.com (Ben)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:05:05 +0100
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <20040819231139.D039A1E4003@bag.python.org>
	<mailman.1999.1092969866.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<eyqWc.223375$j62.10948731@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<qVAWc.2328$MR2.9560@news1.mts.net>
	<njemi0hrm3jb1kdc8mhg8krd9a4qu3e894@4ax.com>
	<czKWc.2394$MR2.10042@news1.mts.net>
Message-ID: <412c5642$0$5080$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk>

I'm 25. Professionally I am a C++ programmer, but I introduced Python to my
company two years ago and now we use it for all our scripting and embedding
needs

Ben Young


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 11:15:46 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:15:46 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed2040826075738a8f6ca@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<cghslg$lao$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082600433e025140@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkjm5$3lb$2@sea.gmane.org>
	<cgkprj$3lb$5@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040826075738a8f6ca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cgkur1$ehg$2@sea.gmane.org>

Anthony Baxter wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:50:43 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>Ok.  Then let's jettison the baggage with the word metadata and just
>>call them 'magic attributes'.  It doesn't matter.  The essential point
>>about them is that they almost /never have 'local variable' semantics/.
>>They are attributes of the object being defined.  That's the point I'm
>>trying to drive home here.  When we define __xxx__ attributes, we are
>>not intending to create local variables.  No.  We are making declarations.
> 
> 
> Explain to me how __getitem__ is a declaration while getMonkey is not,
> assuming both are methods.
> 
> The only magic attribute that fits your case of "magic attribute" is
> __metaclass__.
> The overwhelming number of double-under names are not magic
> attributes, or metadata, or whatever you want to call them.

__getitem__ is most certainly magical!  Defining it 'declares' 
(implicitly, but we'll ignore that governing zen rule for the moment) 
that instances of the containing class have dictionary semantics (that 
they can be used, in some degree, like dictionaries).  That's magic. 
That's meta.  That's profoundly deeper than anything defining getMonkey 
does.




From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Thu Aug 12 11:33:38 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:33:38 -0400
Subject: os.removedirs not working
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1562.1092323531.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1562.1092323531.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121127160.5408-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Golawala, Moiz M (GE Infrastructure) wrote:

> I have a small program that where I am using
> os.removedirs('C:\\someDir') on windows. I get the error that the
> directory is not empty. Sure there are sub-directories under it and all
> file and directories are deletable(nothing is locked by the system) and
> there are no permission issues either. Can someone please tell me if I
> am using the os.removedirs() correctly?

os.removedirs() won't remove files for you.  As far as I can tell, there's
no builtin Python function that does this, but the library docs for os
give the following bit of code that does just what you want:

 import os
 from os.path import join
 # Delete everything reachable from the directory named in 'top'.
 # CAUTION:  This is dangerous!  For example, if top == '/', it
 # could delete all your disk files.
 for root, dirs, files in os.walk(top, topdown=False):
     for name in files:
         os.remove(join(root, name))
     for name in dirs:
         os.rmdir(join(root, name))

My guess as to why this isn't a library function is precisely the reason 
stated in that comment: it's potentially dangerous!



From mwh at python.net  Sat Aug  7 15:49:54 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 19:49:54 GMT
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu> <cf3b56$gt6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>
Message-ID: <m3y8kqpw2l.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Jarek Zgoda <jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl> writes:

> Come on, guys, fix real problems like interpreter thread safety,
> improve performance, don't make us, "real-world software
> developers", screaming with every new release, please.

http://www.python.org/patches/

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Monte Carlo sampling is no way to understand code.
                                  -- Gordon McMillan, comp.lang.python


From ely.stob at elvis.com  Mon Aug  2 18:24:58 2004
From: ely.stob at elvis.com (Ely Stob)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 15:24:58 -0700
Subject: C# / .NET books recommendations? (was: Re: Importance of C#)
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>
	<ce9cp3$g39$1@bagan.srce.hr> <5dydnZSDZaARoZXcRVn-ug@powergate.ca>
	<gmint1-db3.ln1@lairds.us>
	<9418be08.0407292114.129c856f@posting.google.com>
	<ceemns$dga$1@bagan.srce.hr>
Message-ID: <b83c9f9c.0408021424.234bd2c5@posting.google.com>

Ivan Voras <ivoras at __geri.cc.fer.hr> writes:
> Elbert Lev wrote:
> 
> > C# IS a good language and .NET is a very good environment. Recently I
...
> > Important - Python realities (not exotic) map on C# perfectly.
> 
> My experience exactly - this is what I was fishing for. While I
> wouldn't say 'perfectly', it is good, and certainly 'good enough'.

Interesting comment.

Anybody have recommendations (and warnings-off...) for books on C#, .NET,
and associated gubbins? (ASP.NET, ADO.NET, Windows Forms, ...)

I'm guessing that I'll need a good half-tonne of dead tree if I'm to get a
grasp of it <0.5 wink>.  Figuring out *which* half-tonne might be even
more time-consuming than reading that dry mass, though...

Some books that caught my own eye - all comments much appreciated:


C# and .NET
===========
 
Jesse Liberty; Programming C#

Andrew Troelsen; C# and the .Net Platform

Anders Hejlsberg, Scott Wiltamuth, Peter Golde; The C# Programming Language  

Box, Sells; Essential .NET

Stephen Teilhet, Jay Hilyar; C# Cookbook; (O'Reilly)

Peter Drayton, et al; C# in a Nutshell; (O'Reilly)

J Richter; Applied Microsoft .NET Framework Programming  


Windows Forms
=============

Chris Sells; Windows Forms Programming in C# 

Matthew MacDonald; User Interfaces with C SHARP: Windows Forms and Custom Controls 


ASP.NET
=======

Jesse Liberty, Dan Hurwitz; Programming ASP.NET

Fritz Onion; Essential ASP.NET with Examples in C#
 
N. Kothari; Developing ASP.NET Server Controls and Components


ADO.NET
=======

D. Sceppa; Microsoft ADO .NET (Core Reference)


Misc
====

R. Jeffries; Extreme Programming Adventures in C#  


I see Petzold is soldiering on, too :-/


ely


From borkent at cs.utwente.nl  Thu Aug 26 07:00:34 2004
From: borkent at cs.utwente.nl (Michiel Borkent)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:00:34 +0200
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<VJOdnfiBTci22rDcRVn-gg@adelphia.com>
	<aNidnUSV4-OK4rDcRVn-jA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <cgkfs3$b87$1@ares.cs.utwente.nl>

Erm, please don't make false propaganda for the language I happen to love
;).

Btw:

(english-to-esperanto "troll") ==> "trolo"

Michiel

"Peter Hansen" <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message
news:aNidnUSV4-OK4rDcRVn-jA at powergate.ca...
> Robert wrote:
>
> > Isn't "Xah Lee" chinese for "Moron"?
>
> No, it's Esperanto (universal language) for "troll"...
>
> -Peter



From eldiener at earthlink.net  Sun Aug  1 08:12:38 2004
From: eldiener at earthlink.net (Edward Diener)
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 12:12:38 GMT
Subject: Returning another instance from constructor
References: <mailman.1026.1091334182.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <W65Pc.22000$iK.14740@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>

Robert Brewer wrote:
> Edward Diener wrote:
>> ...I can find no documentation in the Python 2.3 docs
>> for __new__ . Can you point me to it ?
>
> Start with http://www.python.org/2.2.3/descrintro.html

Thanks. I do think the information about new style classes should be part of
the Python distributed documentation. Any reason why it has not been since
it is now part of the language, or did I miss it somewhere in the official
distribution >




From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Mon Aug 23 11:58:26 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:58:26 GMT
Subject: __name__ becoming read-write?
References: <uutji0h87t24cb1nej03gdggs0hg6eno3l@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2205.1093275632.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <c94ki0dgh70ud7e1ok8sshlvg4pe96s4h8@4ax.com>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 01:40:29 +1000, Anthony Baxter
<anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:07:42 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Did I hallucinate something about __name__ becoming read-write?
>
>> Better get my facts straight first....
>> 
>> But if true that would seem to solve the main objection to:
>
>> the_horrible_name_I _need_to_call=transform(__f)
>
>> And would mean that a byproduct of the PEP318 implementation would go
>> 50% toward obviating the need for a PEP318 implementation.  At least
>> by one measure.
>
>No, it is now read-write, thanks to mwh. I think, though, that you're
>misunderstanding the difference between setting a local variable in
>the function, called '__name__', and setting the actual __name__ of
>the function object.

You are right. I did know this to be *possibly* true, but had no
implementation to test.

Though  __doc__ (and I am sure other stuff) exhjibits the same
behavior, so there is no real excuse to be surprised.

This sabotages my approach, but only to the extent that we would still
need until after __f's def to know the name we are imposing on it.

Of course I am curious as to why, and what would be involved, and
wrong,. with merging the local variable and the actual name for these
special syntax items.  It would seem to have merit on its own terms.  

For example I had noticed to use string substition on a function doc I
needed to assign to __doc__ outside the function. 

Unless I was hallucinating.

Though I would understand if you are not in tutorial mood, or mode.

Art






>>>> def foo(): pass
>... 
>>>> foo.__name__ = 'bar'
>>>> foo.__name__
>'bar'
>>>> def foo():
>...   __name__ = 'bar'
>... 
>>>> foo.__name__
>'foo'
>>>> foo.func_code.co_names  
>('__name__',)



From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Thu Aug  5 17:15:39 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 17:15:39 -0400
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <10h58s2bmjo1j67@news.supernews.com>


"Hallvard B Furuseth" <h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no> wrote in message
news:HBF.20040805p736 at bombur.uio.no...
> Now that the '-*- coding: <charset> -*-' feature has arrived,
> I'd like to see an addition:
>
>   # -*- str7bit:True -*-
>
>   After the source file has been converted to Unicode, cause a parse
>   error if a non-u'' string contains a non-7bit source character.
>
> It can be used to ensure that the source file doesn't contain national
> characters that the program will treat as characters in the current
> locale's character set instead of in the source file's character set.
>
> An environment variable or command line option to set this for all
> files would also be very useful (and -*- str7bit:False -*- to override
> it), so one can easily check someone else's code for trouble spots.
>
> Possibly an s'' syntax or something would also be useful for non-
> Unicode strings that intentionally contain national characters.
>
> I dislike the '7bit' part of the name - it's misleading both because
> one can get 8-bit strings e.g. with the '\x<hex>' notation (a feature,
> not a bug) and because some 'valid' characters will be 8bit in
> character sets like EBCDIC.  However, I can't think of a better name.
>
> Comments?
> Has it been discussed before?

Is this even an issue? If you specify utf-8 as the character
set, I can't see how non-unicode strings could have
anything other than 7-bit ascii, for the simple reason that
the interpreter wouldn't know which encoding to use.
(of course, hex escapes would still be legal, as well as
constructed strings and strings read in and so forth.)

On the other hand, I don't know that it actually does it this
way, and PEP 263 seems to be completely uninformative
on the issue.

John Roth
>
> -- 
> Hallvard




From gumuz at NO_looze_SPAM.net  Fri Aug 13 10:30:26 2004
From: gumuz at NO_looze_SPAM.net (Guyon Morée)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:30:26 +0200
Subject: secret message hidden in an image
Message-ID: <411cd06a$0$3888$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>

hi, i wrote a little script which can 'hide' a piece of text in an image
using python and PIL

i wrote about it on my blog, if you like to read it go to:

http://gumuz.looze.net/blogger/2004/08/message-in-image.html

thankyou for your time




From http  Tue Aug 17 00:29:08 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 21:29:08 -0700
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
References: <mailman.1661.1092519005.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7x7js1i887.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<slrnchug4m.n0d.npat@gray.efault.net> <zn4w2y3g.fsf@telus.net>
	<slrnci21mq.h3l.npat@gray.efault.net> <isbi95v7.fsf@telus.net>
	<slrnci31lc.1h8.npat@gray.efault.net>
Message-ID: <7xoela8k17.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Nick Patavalis <npat at efault.net> writes:
> But this is only a tiny portion of what one can do with generators and
> coroutines! Actually for me it is the least interesting part. Having a
> keyword that suggests the possibility of resumable functions
> (resumable threads of execution), but then impose such limitations, is
> frustrating.

The limitations aren't as bad as they sound.  There are easy
workarounds most of the time.  I do think using the yield keyword
to identify generator functions was unfortunate, since it makes
it harder to get rid of the limitations.


From yawar.amin at gmail.com  Sat Aug  7 06:28:11 2004
From: yawar.amin at gmail.com (Yawar Amin)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 16:28:11 +0600
Subject: Decorator syntax
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408050856390.31290-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu>
References: <mailman.1173.1091670172.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<38ednYT1NLz1P4zcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
	<JEiQc.16955$_25.574@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408050856390.31290-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <2njp58F1jj1dU1@uni-berlin.de>

Christopher T King wrote:
> Another (perhaps better) method of declaring metadata has been previously 
> proposed, that of function attributes:
> 
>  def foo(a,b,c):
>      .accepts = (int,int,list)
>      .author = 'Chris King'

How about

def foo(a, b, c):
     foo.accepts = (int, int, list)
     foo.author = 'Chris King'

--
Yawar Amin


From ville at spammers.com  Fri Aug 20 06:47:47 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 13:47:47 +0300
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <du7hdqyxezw.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Paul" == Paul McGuire <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> writes:

    Paul> (And let's hope we get at least as good a response as the "average age"
    Paul> thread!)

Not going to happen, with the words "alternative decorator syntax" in
the subject. No sensible person wants to see yet another wacky
alternative, and the subject promises as much.

Hence, I won't vote yet because, at minimum, you need a better subject
line.

Something like this needs to be announced somewhere (e.g. daily
python-url).

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From bart_nessux at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 14 23:11:36 2004
From: bart_nessux at hotmail.com (Bart Nessux)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 23:11:36 -0400
Subject: windows registry, tuples, turning off winXP firewall with Python
Message-ID: <cfmk95$950$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>

for i in range(10000):
     try:
         n,v,t = EnumValue(open_key,i)
         # n == name of the registry object.
         # v == object's value.
         # t == object's type.
         print n,v,t
     except EnvironmentError:
         print "\nThere are", i, "registy objects under this key."
         break

Is there a way to reference an item within a tuple that you've iterated 
over? The above code upacks a tuple into 3 variables n,v and t. In order 
to do this, it loops over a Windows registry key. Let's say that I want 
to find out which n == 'EnableFirewall' and then read the value of its 
v... how can I do that?

BTY, the below code turns off the 'Windows Firewall' on Windows XP 
Service Pack 2... I wrote it as a test after reading that MS is allowing 
3rd party programs to programmatically enable or disable the firewall 
through the registry.

from _winreg import *

sub_key = 
r"SYSTEM\ControlSet001\Services\SharedAccess\Parameters\FirewallPolicy\StandardProfile"
open_key = OpenKey(HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE, sub_key, 0, KEY_ALL_ACCESS)
SetValueEx(open_key,'EnableFirewall',0,REG_DWORD,0)
CloseKey(open_key)


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 05:57:42 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 05:57:42 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed204081911025720b7fb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1829.1092785390.5135.python-list@python.org>	<65adnQrUKILiC7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>	<mailman.1834.1092791633.5135.python-list@python.org>	<m2vffgd6pu.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>	<mailman.1858.1092832530.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Michael.J.Fromberger-6AF702.10114718082004@localhost>	<mailman.1891.1092854353.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Michael.J.Fromberger-FF646E.17492318082004@localhost>	<mailman.1909.1092869465.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Michael.J.Fromberger-F6FD2B.21140718082004@localhost>	<cg1vp4$vgd$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040819034652e5089f@mail.gmail.com>	<cg24a4$vgd$3@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed204081911025720b7fb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cg4huk$mgn$2@sea.gmane.org>

Anthony Baxter wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:52:38 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>I wrote:
>>
>>>Look, name-mangling is horrid, and I don't think anyone's defending it. But
>>>at the same time, "name mangling is there" is not an argument for extending
>>>the horror to a whole new level.
>>>
>>>Name mangling only occurs when you create a method with two leading
>>>underscores, and no trailing ones. Your proposal would hit _every_ _single_
>>>'def'. It's nasty, it's unpythonic, and there's approximately _zero_ chance of
>>>it ever going into the language. Having said that, it's perfectly feasible to do
>>>it with a metaclass, and if you want to use it in your code, please, feel free.
>>
>>You didn't follow that one with a smiley either... :-)
> 
> 
> That's because I wasn't joking, at all. Look, your idea is a _bad_ one. Numerous
> people have pointed out why. Let it die.

I know you weren't Anthony (that was a joke).  I understand that you 
don't like this idea, but that doesn't make it a _bad_ one. Numerous 
people have *not* effectively pointed out the problems with it (and 
neither have you, sir).

Don't use it, if you don't want to.  Make your code as hard to 
understand as you like.  Python gives you that freedom.




From godoy at ieee.org  Mon Aug 23 12:17:43 2004
From: godoy at ieee.org (Jorge Godoy)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:17:43 -0300
Subject: 100 % portable ?
References: <rp_Vc.221989$xO.10939509@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<sl1nv1-7jm.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<Xsw*OvOsq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Message-ID: <m36579rfq0.fsf@g2ctech.com>

Sion Arrowsmith <siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:

> Roger Binns <rogerb at rogerbinns.com> wrote:
>>My preferred toolkit is the wxPython wrapper around wxWidgets.
>>Wherever possible it uses native widgets.   [ ... ]
>>
>>Just to give you some idea, in my 30,000 line program there are
>>5 tests to see what platform it is running on, specifically to
>>ensure appropriate defaults etc for the platform.
>
> Sounds about right to me -- I've got about 20,000 lines of
> application with six platform tests, five of which are to
> work around platform-specific infelicities in wx.

This sounds very interesting.

Do any of you have those tests and workarounds publicly available? 

-- 
Godoy.     <godoy at ieee.org>


From grante at visi.com  Wed Aug 11 10:58:10 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 14:58:10 GMT
Subject: How to get rid of "hex/oct constants > sys.maxint" warning?
Message-ID: <411a3402$0$65564$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

I'm getting tired of seeing meaningless warnings from my code,
but I can't figure out how to get rid of them:

For example:

fcntl.ioctl(fd,0xc0047a80,s)   causes

  FutureWarning: hex/oct constants > sys.maxint will return
  positive values in Python 2.4 and up

Firstly, I have no idea what that error means in this context.
0xc0047a80 isn't intended to be an integer (either positive or
negative): it's just a chunk of 32 bits.
  
Googling the newsgroup came up with the suggestion that putting
an "L" on the end of the constant would eliminate the warning,
but it causes an error:

fcntl.ioctl(fd,0xc0047a80L,s)  causes

  OverflowError: long int too large to convert to int

So, that doesn't work.

How _do_ I get rid of the warning?  Is there a way to tell
Python that the constant isn't an integer, it's just a bit
pattern?
  
-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Mr and Mrs PED, can
                                  at               I borrow 26.7
                               visi.com            


From PPNTWIMBXFFC at spammotel.com  Fri Aug 13 03:32:58 2004
From: PPNTWIMBXFFC at spammotel.com (Marco Aschwanden)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:32:58 +0200
Subject: Yet another decorator proposal
References: <mailman.1480.1092204219.5135.python-list@python.org>	<2ntvn1F4mgskU1@uni-berlin.de>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408111054010.19452-100000@ccc1.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1510.1092238880.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2o1dcnF5s9itU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <opscntw8h335jo5o@news.gmane.org>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:41:36 +0200, Reinhold Birkenfeld 
<reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net> wrote:

> It doesn't really need to be triple-quoted, does it?


>>> def test():
... 	"A little test."
... 	print "hi"
... 	
>>> test.__doc__
'A little test.'
>>>

It seems not, but I am not aware what language reference says to that...

Marco



From curzio.basso at unibas.ch  Wed Aug 11 04:04:01 2004
From: curzio.basso at unibas.ch (Curzio Basso)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:04:01 +0200
Subject: how to dispatch objects depending on their class 
In-Reply-To: <4118dd4a$1@maser.urz.unibas.ch>
References: <4118dd4a$1@maser.urz.unibas.ch>
Message-ID: <4119d2f7$1@maser.urz.unibas.ch>

Curzio Basso wrote:

> class B(object):
>   def __init__(self):
>     A.__init__(self)

typo. this should be:

class B(A):
   def __init__(self):
     A.__init__(self)


From mwh at python.net  Tue Aug  3 08:56:58 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:56:58 GMT
Subject: metaclasses and Exceptions
References: <fc92b425.0407282343.750721e@posting.google.com>
	<m3hdrpifmz.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
	<5d83790c.0407311043.1021ebaa@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <m3vfg0gz1i.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

python at rcn.com (Raymond Hettinger) writes:

> Michael Hudson <mwh at python.net> wrote > One of the areas where PyPy is
> different from CPython is that there
> > are no old-style classes or instances, so exceptions are necessarily
> > new-style.  This has caused no real problems on any Python program
> > we've tried it on yet...
> 
> How does PyPy distinguish between instance and class arguments to
> raise?

"isinstance(x, type)", iirc.

The code is in this file:

http://codespeak.net/svn/pypy/trunk/src/pypy/interpreter/pyframe.py

in the function app_normalize_exception().  There's a kind of horrible
issue if you do things like:

class Nasty(type, Exception):
    pass

raise Nasty()

I can't remember what PyPy does here (the answer is quite possibly
"break").

> Given:  raise X
> Does it pass X or X()?

Depends on X!  Has to, really, or we certainly would have had more
problems from this than we've had.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  "declare"?  my bogometer indicates that you're really programming
  in some other language and trying to force Common Lisp into your
  mindset.  this won't work.            -- Erik Naggum, comp.lang.lisp


From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Sat Aug 21 14:02:43 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:02:43 -0400
Subject: __metaclass__ and __author__ are already decorators
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2107.1093099087.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2107.1093099087.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2opgsoFd7807U1@uni-berlin.de>

Paul Morrow wrote:
> Thinking about decorators, and looking at what we are already doing in 
> our Python code, it seems that __metaclass__, __author__, __version__, 
> etc. are all examples of decorators.  So we already have a decorator 
> syntax.  What is the compelling reason to invent a new one?  And if we 
> do, what's to become of the old one?
> <snip>

I've thought about something along the lines of your suggestion before, 
but it doesn't seem very Pythonic to assign special meaning to function 
variables with special names to me. It's essentially a new syntax, but 
disguised as an old syntax with an entirely different meaning.


From opengeometry at yahoo.ca  Mon Aug  2 03:29:12 2004
From: opengeometry at yahoo.ca (William Park)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 07:29:12 GMT
Subject: (patch for Bash) try-block and exception
References: <2n27jlFsb5njU1@uni-berlin.de> <2n60o4Frnmp4U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <2n68q7Fsoqc6U2@uni-berlin.de>

In <comp.unix.shell> Greg Ewing <greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> William Park wrote:
> >     try 
> >       echo a
> >       raise 2
> >       echo b
> >     done in
> >       0) echo okey ;;
> >       1) echo raised 1 ;;
> >       2) echo raised 2 ;;
> >       *) echo really bad ;;
> >     esac
> 
> try...done...esac? What a delightfully eclectic combination
> of syntax. :-)
> 
> Why doesn't it end with 'yrt'?

'try-done' was chosen because it resembles while-loop where you would
break out of; and, '-in-esac' was chosen because it resembles case
statement.  Also, I didn't want to introduce too many new keywords.

-- 
William Park, Open Geometry Consulting, <opengeometry at yahoo.ca>
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


From ben at benlast.com  Sun Aug 15 04:10:35 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 09:10:35 +0100
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPKELCCDAA.ben@benlast.com>

Hans (Hans Nowak (hans at zephyrfalcon.org)) wrote:
>This post wasn't deriding decorators; rather, it explains them,
>and provides some examples of how to use them.  I do question
>their usefulness, but I'm not deriding them, nor the "@" syntax.
Just to be contrary, *this* post isn't questioning the usefulness of
decorators (though I've yet to see a case that really makes me feel they're
a killer feature), but *is* questioning the syntax (not deriding - I don't
do derision!)

The "@" notation feels a little bit Perl-esque to me, in a "let's overload
another symbol" type of way.  It doesn't seem to follow the general
Python-zen model of using explicit words for extra functionality, such as
"staticmethod".  I appreciate it's just syntactic sugar, but one could make
that same case for, say, the $_ variable in Perl.

Given (for the sake of argument), that decorators are useful (and here I'm
admitting that I may well be in ignorance of the finer points of their
requirements), do they *really* require a dedicated extension to the
language?  Surely; those who are aware of the need for decorators will also
tend to be competent to build them using the language features that already
exist, obviating the need for special syntax?  Although I concede the edge
case of experienced developers in another language who come to Python and
want to use such power-user features from day one.

This comment offered in all humility, as a first post :)

Ben

PS: Paul (Morrow): when I read your statement "I'm really not sure that
those 'Zen' items were intended to be absolute guiding principles", I
couldn't help but remember Captain Barbossa in Pirates Of The Caribbean -
"the [Pirate] code's more what you would call guidelines than actual
rules..." :)



From robin at SPAMREMOVEjessikat.fsnet.co.uk  Sun Aug  8 07:10:15 2004
From: robin at SPAMREMOVEjessikat.fsnet.co.uk (Robin Becker)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 12:10:15 +0100
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
In-Reply-To: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu>
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu>
Message-ID: <41160A17.2090708@jessikat.fsnet.co.uk>

Mikl?s wrote:
> Ok, seems like we have @decorators. It's a nice tribute to Intercal.  But
> I'd prefer #decorators.
> 
> We have metaclasses for pleasure brain-melting. We have generators,
> new-style classes and old-style classes. Lambdas are wonderful.
> We do need real interfaces, not abused classes.  Python still needs to have
> inlined functions, macros and templates. Operator overloading is not enough,
> one should be able to introduce new ones freely. There's a heavy demand for
> terciary comparisons. Why don't we have a 'case' statement and 'do... repeat
> ()'?
> We cannot do without general closures, of course.  Hm, automatic garbage
> collection is sometimes fine but explicite memory allocation/deallocation is
> really unavoidable for efficient programs.
> Wait, pointers are a must! Static typing should have been introduced a long
> time ago. You just cannot do without absolute address variables.
> 
> Yes, I'm thorougly annoyed with creeping featurism.
> 
> Mikl?s
> 
.....

I'm not exactly against 'decorators' although it seems to me thay should 
be called 'transformers' as it seems they act to transform the following 
  function definition.

On the other hand the proposed syntax is abominable.

Additionally there now seems to be at least two 'one and only obvious' 
ways to handle these transformations.

     @classmethod
     def meth(...):
         ...

or
     def meth(...):
         ...
     meth = classmethod(meth)


As a final silliness (or perhaps miracle) this can apparently all be 
done in python using code from PJ Eby so a standard decorate mechanism 
could have gone into the library while the Gods argue.

Decision by exhaustion is surely not a good recipe.
-- 
Robin Becker


From kamikaze at kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu  Sun Aug  8 20:48:44 2004
From: kamikaze at kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 00:48:44 GMT
Subject: @decorators
References: <d22692a3.0408052234.7230fd74@posting.google.com>
	<roy-B53A92.08194306082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<10h73e5kh1et536@news.supernews.com> <4113e5be@nntp.zianet.com>
Message-ID: <slrnchdifc.23j9.kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu>

Mark Bottjer <mark_bottjer at hotmail.com>
wrote on Fri, 06 Aug 2004 16:10:37 -0400:
> John Roth wrote:
>> All of the existing packages (at least to my knowledge) use
>> descriptors to wrap the necessary functions. They could be
>> very easily reimplemented in terms of the decorator syntax.
>> However, the decorator syntax brings no new functionality
>> to the table; it's simply syntactic sugar for already existing
>> functionality.
> Exactly. What's more, I don't think that decorators are really the ideal 
> way to express DBC, either. For one thing, pre and post conditions often 
> want access to at least the argument list, and often to the internal 
> variables of the definition. I don't think that this will be possible 
> with the decorators as proposed, since they are outside the scope of the 
> function.

  You can already do pre- and post-conditions without new syntax:

import types
def intdiv(a, b):
    # preconditions
    assert type(a) == types.IntType
    assert type(b) == types.IntType
    assert b != 0
    rc = None
    try:
        # body
        rc = a // b; return rc
    finally:
        # postconditions
        assert type(rc) == types.IntType

  If assignment was an expression, that return would be a little nicer,
but it's acceptable.

-- 
 <a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"Virtues foster one another; so too, vices.
 Bad English kills trees, consumes energy, and befouls the Earth.
 Good English renews it." -The Underground Grammarian, v1n2


From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Aug 27 01:43:33 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 07:43:33 +0200
Subject: What GCC version had <stdint.h> defined?
In-Reply-To: <412e70d3$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
References: <412e39d1$1@nntp0.pdx.net> <412E55A9.9070400@v.loewis.de>
	<412e70d3$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
Message-ID: <412eca05$0$24800$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

Scott David Daniels wrote:
> I'd like to change it to something like:
>     ...
>     #if _MSC_VER > 1200
>     #define HAVE_UINTPTR_T 1
>     #define HAVE_INTPTR_T 1
>     #endif
>     ...
>     #if GCC_VERSION >= 30100
>     #define HAVE_UINTPTR_T 1
>     #define HAVE_INTPTR_T 1
>     #endif
>     ...
> 
> which is arguably better even if not good enough.

That won't help at all. PC/pyconfig.h is used only
on Windows, not on Linux. On Linux, configure is run
to detect presence of things.

> Is there a better test I can do at compile time?

Depends on what you want to test for. If it is
presence of stdint.h, you should test for
HAVE_STDINT_H.

Regards,
Martin


From bokr at oz.net  Wed Aug 18 14:40:28 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 18:40:28 GMT
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
References: <mailman.1829.1092785390.5135.python-list@python.org>	<65adnQrUKILiC7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>	<mailman.1834.1092791633.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<m2vffgd6pu.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
	<mailman.1858.1092832530.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cg07qs$psn$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 08:35:21 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:

>Dan Sommers wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:13:47 -0400,
>> Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>First though, I still believe that we should exploit existing
>>>conventions (recommended coding practices) as a way of getting 'free'
>>>declarations for class, static, and instance methods (e.g. methods
>>>whose first param is 'self' are instance methods, etc.). That feels
>>>very pythonic to me, just as we use naming conventions to distinguish
>>>public, private, and semi-private methods.
>> 
>> 
>> I don't understand how assigning semantic significance to a "recommended
>> coding practice" is Pythonic.
>> 
>> In the face of ambiguity, refuse to guess.
>> 
>> Explicit is better than implicit.
>> 
>
>Good conventions prevent ambiguity.
Conventions don't direct computation though, they just direct human interpretation.
That is, unless you use convention-patterns as you propose for self etc., and then
they aren't just conventions. (As you may infer, my second thoughts on this are
not supportive of overloading naming. I thought it was not that "fragile" in the
narrow context of ordinary method definition, but I think it's a step on a slippery
slope to name-tricks that too many clever people may be tempted to step onto ;-)

>
>    class Foo:
>       def method1(self, a, b): pass       # clearly an instance method
>       def method2(cls, a, b): pass        # clearly a class method
>       def method3(a, b): pass             # clearly a static method
        def method4(*args): pass            # clearly different ;-)
>
>
>When declarations conflict with conventions, it makes us wonder what the 
>author really intended.
Sure, that's natural. Depending on the author, you might look for something
interesting ;-)
>
>       def staticmethod setX(self, x):
>           self.x = x
>
> >
> > I think that the idea that started this thread is just right:
> >
>
>You're right, this thread is about decorators, not about more 
>opportunities for dynamic typing.  I just wanted to remind us that 
>decorators are a lot like static typing, which isn't terribly pythonic.
>
Maybe simple-name callables between the def and the function name
would cover most use cases, and you could let people do what they want
to set up the names. A single name could also be bound to a composition of
several things in a lambda or whatever, if handy for repetitive concise use.
    import mydecorators
    deco1 = mydecorators.deco1
    deco2 = mydecorators.deco2factory('this', 'that', 'tother')
    class Foo(object):
        def staticmethod deco1 method1(x,y): pass
        def deco2 method2(self): pass

A plain name series between def and arg list shouldn't be hard grammar-wise, IWT.
The idea is growing on me. It doesn't abuse naming itself.

Argh, must go ...

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From mauriceling at acm.org  Mon Aug  2 04:21:13 2004
From: mauriceling at acm.org (Maurice Ling)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 18:21:13 +1000
Subject: Call for Grant Proposals
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed2040802004962f99d8a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <40fcaa90$0$27091$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>	<ToadnWWu8tQIgmDdRVn-uQ@giganews.com>	<p_2dnfCS9O4GRmDdRVn-qQ@powergate.ca>
	<41097fed$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>
	<e69d3ed2040802004962f99d8a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <410DF979.5020709@acm.org>

Anthony Baxter wrote:

>On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:53:38 GMT, Maurice LING <mauriceling at acm.org> wrote:
>  
>
>>I have a few questions to ask about this grant and I've emailed this to
>>psf-grant at python.org but had no replies yet. Maybe someone authoritative
>>from PSF can help me out in this or anyone can put in some comments.
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>1. Is there a requirement to release the deliverables, including,
>>software, source codes, specifications and documentation, to the general
>>public using any of the Open Source Initiative (OSI) approved open
>>source licences?
>>    
>>
>
>I'm not on the grants committee, but I'd _expect_ that this would be the
>case, yes. Will this be a problem? 
>
>Anthony
>
>  
>
This might be a problem if I am trying to apply this grant for a closed 
source project but still advancing python and its related technology, as 
I've stated in the same email (question 6, if I'm not wrong). I've given 
the example of applying this grant for the development of a Python IDE 
or sort but as a closed source project. It seems that the grants 
committee has no clear wordings, which will make dealings with companies 
extremely difficult. I'm unable to convince my lawyers and management 
without concise wordings by PSF.

It seems to me as that this grant is only applicable for hobbyist.

Cheers
Maurice

--
Maurice Han Tong LING, BSc(Hons)(Biochem), AdvDipComp, SN
Doctor of Philosophy (Science) Candidate, The University of Melbourne
mobile: +61 4 22781753
	+65 96669233
mailing address: Department of Zoology, The University of Melbourne
		 Royal Parade, Parkville, Victoria 3010, Australia
residential address: 9/41 Dover Street
	   	     Flemington, Victoria 3031, Australia
email: mauriceling at acm.org
resume: http://maurice.vodien.com/maurice_resume.pdf
www: http://www.geocities.com/beldin79/

The information contained in this message, including its attachment(s), 
is CONFIDENTIAL and solely intended to its addressee(s) only. The 
content of this message, including its attachment(s),  may be subjected 
to copyright and privacy laws. If you have received this email in error, 
please let me know by returning this email, and then destroy all copies.

"I cannot discover anyone knows enough to say definitely what is 
and what is not possible" -Henry Ford
"The difference between the impossible and the possible lies 
in a person's determination" -Tommy Charles Lasorda

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From listserver at tdw.net  Mon Aug  2 14:30:21 2004
From: listserver at tdw.net (Tim Williams)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 19:30:21 +0100
Subject: New to Python/Programming
References: <BAY15-F27Zc7aptD8xf000b3387@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <010b01c478be$c4fb7630$ccbefea9@twilliams>


"Mark" <m.tiesman1 at charter.net> wrote in message
news:<10gsujk1og2gkbf at corp.supernews.com>...
> Hello. I am new to programming and Python and was wondering if someone
> could help get me started. I picked Python to start learning to prgram
[snip]
> something that has always interested me, but don't have the time to take
> any formal classes. Thanks for the help.

The Python Docs and examples aren't helpful if you don't understand the
basic terms,  and all the "Teach Yourself Python" books etc get way too deep
far too quickly if you've never done any programming before.  So overall,
they don't really help.

As a recent Newbie,  I found this to be a lot of help.  (It covers both your
requirements)

"Learn to Program Using Python"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0201709384/102-1047927-0214559?v=glance

I found this to be a nice gentle introduction to Python AND programming,
and it helps makes sense of some of the other documentation out there.    I
would treat it as getting you to an intermediate level in-between "knowing
nothing" and "understanding what the hell the other books, online-docs and
examples are on about"  :-)

You'll be able to write in Python by the end of it.    You would still need
something a bit more in depth afterwards (or maybe the online Docs will be
sufficient for you)  but it won't seem as daunting.





From adeger at netlibrary.com  Wed Aug  4 16:33:27 2004
From: adeger at netlibrary.com (adeger)
Date: 4 Aug 2004 13:33:27 -0700
Subject: simple Thread question
References: <b8001e9f.0408031151.4f617c6@posting.google.com>
	<ceosom$6ln$1@fred.mathworks.com>
Message-ID: <b8001e9f.0408041233.1b3ca73c@posting.google.com>

JCM <josh at work.com> wrote in message news:<ceosom$6ln$1 at fred.mathworks.com>...
> You should override the run method, but call thread.start() to kick
> the execution off in a separate thread.  If you call thread.run(),
> you're just running your code in the same thread.
> 

Thanks JCM and everyone else for your help!  This wasn't that clear to
me reading the docs (I really DID read them) and your answer saved me
a bunch of personal (and program execution) time!


From yong at net.tamu.edu  Thu Aug 12 14:21:42 2004
From: yong at net.tamu.edu (Yong Wang)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:21:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Import command
Message-ID: <20040812182143.8CC921589E@net.tamu.edu>

Hi, 
   I write a program to do some network device management. In the beginning
of my codes, I have:
#!/usr/local/bin/python

# System imports
import sys, string, pwd, posix

sys.path.insert(1, '/home/yong/nd3/Modules')

print 'sys path is ', sys.path

import snmpPP

import NDconfig

# Miscellaneous ND stuff
import rcmd, misc

......
  When I run the codes, I get the following error though I have inserted import snmpPP
sources path (/home/yong3/nd3/Modules):


> cisco werc-2950t-1
sys path is  ['', '/home/yong/nd3/Modules', '/usr/local/lib/python1.5/', '/usr/local/lib/python1.5/plat-sunos5', '/usr/local/lib/python1.5/lib-tk', '/usr/local/lib/python1.5/lib-dynload']
Traceback (innermost last):
  File "cisco", line 10, in ?
    import snmpPP
ImportError: ld.so.1: /usr/local/bin/python: fatal: relocation error: file /usr/local/lib/libreadline.so: symbol tputs: referenced symbol not found
   How should I fix the import problem ?
   Thanks a lot.

   Yong



From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Aug  6 08:20:41 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 14:20:41 +0200
Subject: PEP 263 status check
In-Reply-To: <10h6rklt3fa1690@news.supernews.com>
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com> <4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de>
	<10h5hgvpafm8a64@news.supernews.com> <41133C76.8040302@v.loewis.de>
	<10h6rklt3fa1690@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <41137799.70808@v.loewis.de>

John Roth wrote:
> Or are you trying to say that the character string will
> contain the UTF-8 encoding of these characters; that
> is, if I do a subscript, I will get one character of the
> multi-byte encoding?

Michael is almost right: this is what happens. Except that
what you get, I wouldn't call a "character". Instead, it
is always a single byte - even if that byte is part of
a multi-byte character.

Unfortunately, the things that constitute a byte string
are also called characters in the literature.

To be more specific: In an UTF-8 source file, doing

print "?" == "\xc3\xb6"
print "?"[0] == "\xc3"

would print two times "True", and len("?") is 2.
OTOH, len(u"?")==1.

> The point of this is that I don't think that either behavior
> is what one would expect. It's also an open invitation
> for someone to make an unchecked mistake! I think this
> may be Hallvard's underlying issue in the other thread.

What would you expect instead? Do you think your expectation
is implementable?

Regards,
Martin


From jpmorichon at earthlink.net  Thu Aug 12 11:45:36 2004
From: jpmorichon at earthlink.net (CptPicard)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:45:36 GMT
Subject: os.removedirs not working
References: <mailman.1562.1092323531.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121127160.5408-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <AgMSc.14099$nx2.8519@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>

You could use shutil.rmtree : it works fine!
But I tend to prefer the solution offered by Chistopher T King: It gives you
more control on what you are doing.

"Christopher T King" <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121127160.5408-100000 at ccc8.wpi.edu...
> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Golawala, Moiz M (GE Infrastructure) wrote:
>
> > I have a small program that where I am using
> > os.removedirs('C:\\someDir') on windows. I get the error that the
> > directory is not empty. Sure there are sub-directories under it and all
> > file and directories are deletable(nothing is locked by the system) and
> > there are no permission issues either. Can someone please tell me if I
> > am using the os.removedirs() correctly?
>
> os.removedirs() won't remove files for you.  As far as I can tell, there's
> no builtin Python function that does this, but the library docs for os
> give the following bit of code that does just what you want:
>
>  import os
>  from os.path import join
>  # Delete everything reachable from the directory named in 'top'.
>  # CAUTION:  This is dangerous!  For example, if top == '/', it
>  # could delete all your disk files.
>  for root, dirs, files in os.walk(top, topdown=False):
>      for name in files:
>          os.remove(join(root, name))
>      for name in dirs:
>          os.rmdir(join(root, name))
>
> My guess as to why this isn't a library function is precisely the reason
> stated in that comment: it's potentially dangerous!
>




From rmarchetti at crosscountry-auto.com  Wed Aug 18 16:24:53 2004
From: rmarchetti at crosscountry-auto.com (Robert Marchetti)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:24:53 -0400
Subject: win32: internet explorer automation problem
Message-ID: <20040818202129.C81835B80CF@smtp.crosscountry-auto.com>

Here is an example script that I use along with PAMIE( Python Automation
Module for IE) -
http:pamie.sourceforge.net for Automating IE.

""" In this script I am using WinGuiAuto by Simon Brunning -
simon at brunningonline.net
This is a way of using WinGuiAuto with Pamie to manipulate pop-ups
"""

import winGuiAuto
import cPAMIE

ie = cPAMIE.PAMIE()
wga = winGuiAuto



ie.Navigate('http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/pamie/pamie1_3.zip?use_mirro
r=voxel')
time.sleep(200) # Wait for pop-up
hwnd = wga.findTopWindow(wantedText='File Download') # Find the Dialog text
downloadDialog = wga.findControls(hwnd,'','#32770 (Dialog)')
cancelButton = wga.findControl(hwnd,
                               wantedClass="Button",
                               wantedText="Cancel")
clickButton(cancelButton)
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From martindemello at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 21 15:36:22 2004
From: martindemello at yahoo.com (Martin DeMello)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 19:36:22 GMT
Subject: Decorator keyword options - brainstorming
References: <7knVc.4599$Jn5.3074@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<cg5150$9if$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<HioVc.4613$Jn5.3188@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<cg55e4$bgk$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2065.1093021263.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <WuNVc.176133$gE.109973@pd7tw3no>

Steven Bethard <steven.bethard at gmail.com> wrote:
> Michael Sparks <michaels <at> rd.bbc.co.uk> writes:
> > One other thing that jumped out at me is that different syntaxes
> > probably work better using different keywords. (Partly why I've snipped
> > decorator syntaxes)
> 
> Yeah, I noticed that pretty quickly too.  It looks though, that, of the 
> suggestions requiring a keyword, only the J syntaxes are getting substantial 
> support.  If it seems reasonable to others here, I think we should assume that 
> when we're discussing keyword options here, we're aiming at keywords
> for the J syntaxes (and most probably J2).

I liked 'as:' for J2, but since that's earmarked...

with, using, having, applying, declare

martin


From crichton314 at btinternet.com  Fri Aug 20 09:41:55 2004
From: crichton314 at btinternet.com (John Crichton)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 06:41:55 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3b2846c4.0408200541.5d925216@posting.google.com>

Hi,

My vote: J2 J2 J2.

Surely any English language keyword that gives a meaningful hint as to
its purpose within a program has to be more readable than an arbitrary
'@' symbol?

Readability is one of Python's key strengths and I would be very sorry
to see this undermined.

Best wishes,

John


From ellisjb at my-deja.com  Tue Aug 10 16:50:20 2004
From: ellisjb at my-deja.com (ellisjb at my-deja.com)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 13:50:20 -0700
Subject: PEP-318, billion-and-first syntax proposal
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1468.1092166689.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cfbcec$5ma@odak26.prod.google.com>

I like this idea.  It strikes me as very pythonic.

-Jonathan

Tim Hochberg wrote:
>
> def NAME as EXPRESSION:
>     BLOCK
>
> BLOCK is executed in a separate namespace *before* EXPRESSION is
> evaluated. EXPRESSION is then evaluated in BLOCK's namespace.



From daniel at syrinx.net  Thu Aug 19 12:43:55 2004
From: daniel at syrinx.net (Daniel Ellison)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:43:55 -0400
Subject: Interface graphique pour python
In-Reply-To: <mrl9i0tvo08ej97s7d5bi6hk9k5egh8cc6@4ax.com>
References: <8e16829.0408190650.3fa62d5e@posting.google.com>
	<mrl9i0tvo08ej97s7d5bi6hk9k5egh8cc6@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <2ok3isFbgtl3U1@uni-berlin.de>

Fred wrote:

> On 19 Aug 2004 07:50:35 -0700, yaoroland07 at yahoo.com (Roland) wrote:
> 
>>J'ai redhat 9.0 sur mon ordinateur. Et j'ai besoin d'une interface
>>graphique de python pour cnstuire une application . J'ai cherch? mais
>>en vain. Pourriez-vous m'indiquer une?
> 
> 
> Most people use wxWidgets, and its Python wrapper wxPython. You call
> also take a look at 
> - PyQT (wrapper to the QT widget set, the one used by KDE), 
> - pyFLTK (... to the FLTK widget set, but this wrapper seems no longer
> under development), 
> - PyGTK (you guessed it), 
> - FXPy (to the FOX library)
> 
> Fred.

It looks like he actually has besion d'une application for 
*constructing* a Python application. Perhaps Boa Constructor would help:

http://boa-constructor.sourceforge.net/

Dan


From fumanchu at amor.org  Tue Aug 24 14:23:06 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:23:06 -0700
Subject: J2 0-2-6 is available
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E52@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

There's a semi-final version of the J2 proposal available:

http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html

I think we've heard all the nits by now, and any paragraphs which I felt
were weak have been rewritten. Important changes since 0.2.1:

1) There's a new Conclusion.
2) At Guido's request, I removed "wiggle room" with an explicit
statement in the intro: anything not addressed in the proposal defaults
to the @pie implementation currently in CVS. There's a list of what is
outside the scope of the proposal.
3) I softened the recommendation of the keyword "using" a smidgen
(mostly downplaying argument III over the other two).
4) The number of proposed grammars is now one (there were two).

If I had another 4 hours or so ;) I'd rewrite it in more direct
language. Boy, is it academic in tone--my great weakness. Meh.

At this time, I'd like to call for negative signatories. That is, if you
believe the @pie syntax is better than suite-and-keyword, please drop me
an email, either privately or on the list. I'd like your full name, and
*some* indication of why you are rejecting it. One short sentence is
enough, but if you want to write more, that's fine. I'll try to merge
the rejection comments into a readable summary in that section of the
document.

Please don't sign it yet if you favor the proposal. I'd like a day to
consider the rejection notices. I'm equally open to doing more rewriting
to accomodate the blockers, or freezing it as it stands--it depends to a
large extent on the responses I get from the detractors in the next 24
hours. If there are no reconsiderations, I'll call for positive
signatories (those in favor) tomorrow.

I think we have a good chance of success, where Guido can get a clear
picture of the situation and make a balanced decision. Thanks again to
those who suggested syntax, started polls, managed threads, wrote code
(!) and commented on the draft.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Wed Aug  4 08:57:00 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 08:57:00 -0400
Subject: tkinter button command
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1120.1091622044.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1120.1091622044.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408040850110.27254-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Ajay wrote:

> if i set two buttons to call the same function when they are pressed, is
> there any way, within the function of knowing which button invoked it.

Not built-in to Tkinter, but you can easily get such behaviour using 
lambda like so:

>>> from Tkinter import *
>>> def click(which):
...     print which, 'was clicked!'
>>> button1 = Button(text='Button 1',command=lambda: click('number 1'))
>>> button2 = Button(text='Button 2',command=lambda: click('number 2'))
>>> button1.pack()
>>> button2.pack()

lambda: will wrap the call to click() up in a function.  You can call
click() with any arguments this way; instead of strings, you could use
integers or a reference to the object itself (though you'd have to set
command after creating the button to do this).



From adonisv at DELETETHISTEXTearthlink.net  Wed Aug 18 10:46:16 2004
From: adonisv at DELETETHISTEXTearthlink.net (Adonis)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:46:16 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <YYJUc.25590$nx2.11239@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>

"Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:jQHUc.1529$2L3.505 at newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....
>
>

23




From nicksjacobson at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 17 06:33:58 2004
From: nicksjacobson at yahoo.com (Nick Jacobson)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 03:33:58 -0700
Subject: Newbie 1st program
References: <f9d01b73.0408161010.1ba5e9e4@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <f8097096.0408170233.5a40706d@posting.google.com>

justin__devine at hotmail.com (JDevine) wrote in message news:<f9d01b73.0408161010.1ba5e9e4 at posting.google.com>...
> Hey.  I just finished my first python program.  In fact it is my first
> program program at all.  I went from zero knowledge to the current
> state in about 6 weeks.  Check it out at
> http://gobblewin.sourceforge.net  I need help for the next stage of
> development, I am also sure I could use a lot of advice on structure
> etc.  My #1 priority is adding a threaded status bar to track
> downloads to this program.  if you think you can help out let me know.
> 
> Thanks

Great job!  Here's something to clean up the code a bit:

You can change:

<<
            if event.GetInt() == 0:
                 t2.Clear()
                 t2.SetValue("Restrict your search to a specific
site")
                 t2.SetEditable(True)
                 
            elif event.GetInt() == 1:
                 t2.Clear()
                 t2.SetValue("army.mil")
                 t2.SetEditable(False)
                 
            elif event.GetInt() == 2:
                 t2.Clear()
                 t2.SetValue("usmc.mil")
                 t2.SetEditable(False)
            
            elif event.GetInt() == 3:
                 t2.Clear()
                 t2.SetValue("af.mil")
                 t2.SetEditable(False)

            elif event.GetInt() == 4:
                 t2.Clear()
                 t2.SetValue("navy.mil")
                 t2.SetEditable(False)
                 
            elif event.GetInt() == 5:
                 t2.Clear()
                 t2.SetValue("uscg.mil")
                 t2.SetEditable(False)
                 
            elif event.GetInt() == 6:
                 t2.Clear()
                 t2.SetValue("SYColeman.com")
                 t2.SetEditable(False)
                 
            elif event.GetInt() == 7:
                 t2.Clear()
                 t2.SetValue("l3com.com")
                 t2.SetEditable(False)
                 
            elif event.GetInt() == 8:
                 t2.Clear()
                 t2.SetValue("fedbizopps.gov")
                 t2.SetEditable(False)
                 
            elif event.GetInt() == 9:
                 t2.Clear()
                 t2.SetValue("defenselink.mil")
                 t2.SetEditable(False)
>>

to:

<<
            ary = ["Restrict your search to a specific site",
"army.mil", "usmc.mil", "af.mil", "navy.mil", "uscg.mil",
"SYColeman.com", "l3com.com", "fedbizopps.gov", "defenselink.mil"]
            d = dict(zip(range(10), ary))
            i = event.GetInt()
            if i in range(10):
                 t2.Clear()
                 t2.SetValue(d[i])
                 t2.SetEditable(bool(i))
>>

Also, instead of string.atoi(x), use int(x).  I think the former is
deprecated.

--Nick


From rupole at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 11 11:12:28 2004
From: rupole at hotmail.com (Roger Upole)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:12:28 -0400
Subject: Secure storage for passwords for admin scripts?
References: <c90c3203.0408100711.3f7b056d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <411a3602$1_2@127.0.0.1>

You could store the passwords in a file protected by NTFS encryption,
or set the file security to only allow administrators access.
      hth
            Roger

"Max" <mksql at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c90c3203.0408100711.3f7b056d at posting.google.com...
> I have a collection of system admin scripts (on Win 2k) that I would
> like to automate the execution of. However, some of them require the
> use of logins with admin rights, and would therefore prefer not to
> store the IDs in the clear text of the source. If memory serves
> correctly, the "compiled" .pyc files do not provide much security in
> this area.
>
> Are there are recommended methods for supplying scripts with login
> information in a secure fashion?




From jepler at unpythonic.net  Sat Aug 28 22:03:46 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 21:03:46 -0500
Subject: regex into str
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408290203530.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408290203530.1090-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <20040829020346.GA13993@unpythonic.net>

This is intended to be impossible.

Even if you could assign to str.__div__ (and this is very deliberately and
specifically disallowed) you would end up disappointed, because strings
are immutable.  That means there's nowhere to store "the last match",
no way to mutate the string with the "/=" operator, and also that the
interpreter is free to use the same storage for two equal strings.

Jeff
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From sholden at holdenweb.com  Mon Aug 30 19:56:11 2004
From: sholden at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 19:56:11 -0400
Subject: allowing braces around suites
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2554.1093674576.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no><e69d3ed204082708585d615e54@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.2551.1093656430.5135.python-list@python.org>	<PNRXc.38107$v86.26916@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<mailman.2554.1093674576.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4133BE9B.4040404@holdenweb.com>

Anthony Baxter wrote:

> On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 02:07:43 GMT, Paul McGuire
> <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> wrote:
> 
>>"Kjetil Torgrim Homme" <kjetilho at ifi.uio.no> wrote in message
>>news:mailman.2551.1093656430.5135.python-list at python.org...
>>
>>>I'll write a PEP, but it will have to wait until next week.  thank you
>>>for your feedback!
>>>
>>
>>Kjetil -
>>
>>I hate to see you waste the effort.  
> 
> 
> I don't think it's a waste of effort. Once a PEP has been written and
> rejected, future discussions on the subject can be pointed at the PEP.

If you think that's going to stop repeated discussions of this nature 
then you're more optimistic than I thought.

It certainly *would* be nice to put this eternal favorite to rest for 
ever. Maybe a FAQ entry?

regards
  Steve


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Fri Aug 20 02:03:12 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 06:03:12 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <mailman.1989.1092960560.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <AugVc.4535$Jn5.4362@fe1.texas.rr.com>

"Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy)" <tdelaney at avaya.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1989.1092960560.5135.python-list at python.org...
> I think a web page for tabulating votes would be better (see the
> response to the previous vote on 3 syntaxes).

I couldn't agree more, Tim, but time is short.

Also, there is no protection in the web page from "ballot box stuffing" - I
hate to even bring it up, I think we're all adults here, but with public
postings on Usenet, there is a somewhat higher effort to create fictitious
posts to vote multiple times vs. visiting a poll page multiple times.  But
so far there have been 11 votes in this concensus survey, as opposed to
almost 700 clicks on the Wiki page poll (vs. 94 replies to "how old is
everybody out there?").

I know that many folks are just about wrung out over all of the wrangling
and debate over the various options, but for all the discussion, we never
*decided* anything.  The tenor of the comments on python-dev sounds pretty
much like "c.l.py can't make up their minds, so the hell with them, the
current '@' syntax wins by default,"  which I think *stinks*.

FWIW, here's the tally so far, after 11 :( submissions:
J2 12
Any C 12
Any J 12
C1 9
L 4
Any E 3
C2 2
D1 2
E2 2
Any D 2
C3 1
E1 1
M 1
A1 0
A2 0
B 0
C4 0
D2 0
E3 0
F 0
G 0
H 0
I 0
J1 0
J3 0
J4 0
K 0
Any A 0

BTW, where are all the votes for option "A"?  Where are all the people who
hated it but now like it?

-- Paul

For those of you not familiar with the philosophical story of Buridan's Ass,
see http://www.cenius.net/refer/display.php?ArticleID=buridansass .




From chrisks at NOSPAM.udel.edu  Sat Aug 28 21:56:39 2004
From: chrisks at NOSPAM.udel.edu (Chris S.)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 01:56:39 GMT
Subject: Dynamic languages
In-Reply-To: <98862c6.0408280531.6064d510@posting.google.com>
References: <278de0e.0408271349.26762174@posting.google.com>
	<1093650026.763899@news.commspeed.net>
	<98862c6.0408280531.6064d510@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <rJaYc.10048$qY.6427@trndny05>

Marcel van den Dungen wrote:

> "Tom B." <sbabbitt at commspeed.net> wrote in message news:<1093650026.763899 at news.commspeed.net>...
> 
>>I doubt that this is what they mean but a dynamic language is a language
>>that is still evolving (Python) as opposed to a dead language (COBOL).
>>
>>They probably are referring to programs that can add and remove components
>>during runtime.
> 
> 
> Dynamic refers to the typing of variables. In Python variables get a
> type dynamically when assigned a value.
> See also: http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=4639
> and several blog posting of Bruce Eckel on this subject:
> http://www.mindview.net/WebLog/

Personally, I think the definition can go a little further. In Python, 
if you were so inclined, you could generate completely new functionality 
through the use of exec and eval statements. This dynamic generation, 
just not addition, of functionality at runtime I think is an important 
aspect of dynamic languages.


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 01:18:48 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 15:18:48 +1000
Subject: Dr. Dobb's Python-URL! - weekly Python news and links (Aug 23)
In-Reply-To: <L8SdnetkCsQ8VLfcRVn-vA@powergate.ca>
References: <cgdfku$svs$1@lairds.us>
	<mailman.2257.1093319591.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<L8SdnetkCsQ8VLfcRVn-vA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed20408232218f791e3f@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 00:54:50 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> Anthony Baxter wrote:
> 
> > (Hell, this entire discussion is now
> > pretty much based on subjective or aesthetic judgements).

Just to backtrack on this a _little_ - I'm talking about the
block-before-def and pie-syntaxes here. There's still a bunch of
others forms that are _completely_ awful on technical grounds. I
really can't be bothered arguing over the "J2" vs "A1" syntaxes,
though.

> Excellent!  If that's true, it really has reached the stage
> where it's ready for the BDFL's pronouncement.  Having the
> slaves do all the hard work and having the BDFL only have
> to weigh the subjective and aesthetic issues is probably
> exactly how the process should work, and should still
> result in a Python that is a consistent and coherent whole. **

Yep. That's one of the nice things about the BDFL school of language
design - pointless bickering over syntax, which would otherwise not
end until the universe implodes, can be handpassed to Guido.

(In addition, of course, you also end up with a much better result
than you would if a committee designed it)


From python473 at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 21 10:11:27 2004
From: python473 at yahoo.com (John Howard)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 07:11:27 -0700
Subject: file access in jythonc
Message-ID: <9eabe547.0408210611.d5e54f7@posting.google.com>

I have the following in a jythonc program to be executed in a html
file.

f1 = open("filename","r")

I get message about filePermission read error. Program compiles and
jar file is created. Just the html code gives message.

Any ideas?


From PPNTWIMBXFFC at spammotel.com  Wed Aug 11 11:44:14 2004
From: PPNTWIMBXFFC at spammotel.com (Marco Aschwanden)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:44:14 +0200
Subject: Yet another decorator proposal
References: <mailman.1480.1092204219.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2ntvn1F4mgskU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408111054010.19452-100000@ccc1.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <opsckrb0sx35jo5o@news.gmane.org>

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:55:40 -0400, Christopher T King <squirrel at WPI.EDU> 
wrote:

> Also, don't forget docstrings get thrown away when using python -OO.
> Great voodoo would be needed to prevent this from happening.

<magic>
By now the compiler takes the first triple-quoted-string and sets it on 
the object's __doc__-var. Even in -00 mode the compiler has to find the 
triple-quoted-string... well on his way he can pick out the modifiers 
before throwing the doc string away, and set the appropiate object vars 
(__decorators__, __parameters__, ...).

Doesn't seem too complicated to me.
</magic>

Magic greetings,
Marco - The magician




From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug 30 15:51:06 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 19:51:06 GMT
Subject: Size of a remote URL
References: <cgvvs5$c1d@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <4133852a$0$65574$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-30, Justin <justin__devine at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Ok so the problem is that my code is not requesting the
> headers properly.  I get back.  Just that.  I don't know what
> the difference is between the IE request and mine

That's what Ethereal is for. :)

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Let's send the
                                  at               Russians defective
                               visi.com            lifestyle accessories!


From tor.iver.wilhelmsen at broadpark.no  Sun Aug 22 04:44:24 2004
From: tor.iver.wilhelmsen at broadpark.no (Tor Iver Wilhelmsen)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 10:44:24 +0200
Subject: __metaclass__ and __author__ are already decorators
References: <mailman.2107.1093099087.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2opgsoFd7807U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<mailman.2116.1093113995.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2opp6gFdg3e7U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <ud61jmujb.fsf@broadpark.no>

Leif K-Brooks <eurleif at ecritters.biz> writes:

> Which is, like I said, assigning new meaning to an old syntax. That
> seems confusing to me; why not just create a new syntax?

One could argue for the other way around as well: __metaclass__ et al
are class variables assigned special meaning. If new syntax for
decorators is important, why introduce the __metaclass__ "decorator"
before the new syntax is present?


From jacek.generowicz at cern.ch  Wed Aug 25 03:57:59 2004
From: jacek.generowicz at cern.ch (Jacek Generowicz)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 09:57:59 +0200
Subject: static class methods and data members
References: <b68d2f19.0408181247.19b434d2@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1910.1092869488.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b68d2f19.0408191123.2018be94@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <tyf3c2br6ns.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>


Warning: you probably don't want to bother reading all the stuff
between the "==========" lines

========================================================================

nzanella at cs.mun.ca (Neil Zanella) writes:

> So, unlike Python classmethods which are roughly the equivalent of
> C++ static class methods, Python staticmethods really know nothing
> about the members of the class that encloses them

And what do C++ static methods know about the class in which they are
defined? Well, they know about the class members, but have no way of
acessing any of them (other than the static ones) because there is no
this pointer. You do realize that even in C++ and Java there is a
first parameter equivalent to Python's self ... only in C++ and Java
that parameter is hidden by the surface syntax. Try looking at the
code generated by the compiler for (non-static) member functions, and
you'll see that the first parameter is the class instance ("this"),
just like in Python ... only Python doesn't lie to you about this
fact.

In C++ static methods have no "this" poniter, so they have no means of
accessing any instance attributes, because they have no knowledge of
any paricular instance. But because it is normal in C++ to access
instance attributes without explicitly specifying "this", it is
temping to be fooled that 

    struct foo {
      int i;
      static int geti() { return i; }
    };
    
    int main() {
      foo f;
      f.geti();
      return 0;
    }

might compile.

So, all you gain in C++ static methods is installing the function in
the scope of the class ..

> and act pretty much like external defs.

... just like C++ static methods.

The only practical difference between C++ static methods and Python
staticmethods is that in C++ you can access other _static_ methods (and
static data) of the class without explicitly specifying the scope in
which it is to be found:

    struct foo {
      static int i;
      static int geti() { return i; } // this will access foo::i
    };
    
    class foo:
    
        i = 3
    
        def sgeti():
            return foo.i # In Python must explicitly give the scope
        sgeti = staticmethod(sgeti)
    
        def cgeti(cls):
            return cls.i # In Python must explicitly give the scope
        cgeti = classmethod(cgeti)      

========================================================================

> So what's the advantage of a staticmethod over an external def?

It's in a namespace which the author considers to be appropriate.

Now, if you were to ask whether there is anything that can be done
with staticmethods that can's be done whith classmethods ... I'd be
hard pushed to imagine what sort of thing this could be. Anyone?

Maybe there's a minimal efficiency consideration.

> The cls first argument to a Python classmethod is analogous to the self
> first argument to __init__: when you say Class.cmethod() the Class instance
> is passed as the first parameter to the class method,

Careful with your choice of words. The class of which the instance is
an instance (yes, the actual class itself) is passed as the first
parameter to the class method.

(There is another interpretation of the words you wrote, which is more
correct, but it's harder work to interpret your words that way :-)

> and when you say instance = Class(), the instance being constructed
> is passed to __init__ as self, and when you say instance.imethod(),
> the instance is passed to imethod() as the first parameter,
> self. The parameters cls and self are barely named so by convention:
> they are not keywords in Python, unlike say the this pointer which
> is a keyword in C++.
> 
> While qualification within a class is optional in languages like C++ and
> Java, in Python you must always qualify instance variables with self within
> instance methods, and always qualify class variables with cls within Python
> class methods.

Very lucid indeed.

> Since python static methods know nothing about a class, they are equivalent
> to methods defined outside a class, except they may be called with the class
> as the first argument (for no good reason).

Some people consider organizing things in namespaces to be an
extremely good reason. (Type "import this" into your Python REPL and
read the last line that appears.)




From rkern at ucsd.edu  Wed Aug 25 15:43:54 2004
From: rkern at ucsd.edu (Robert Kern)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:43:54 -0500
Subject: Scipy install
In-Reply-To: <cghuqj$qbr$1@news.tudelft.nl>
References: <cghuqj$qbr$1@news.tudelft.nl>
Message-ID: <cgiq5q$d16$1@news1.ucsd.edu>

Maarten van Reeuwijk wrote:
> I am trying to install scipy on an SGI Altix 3700 system, but I cannot
> convince the distutils installer that BLAS and LAPACK are already there and
> that I don't need ATLAS because everything's optimized already. I tried
> modifying the site.cfg to tell where the libraries are located:
> ...
> [lapack]
> library_dirs = /usr/local/opt/scs_beta/lib
> lapack_libs = scs
> 
> [lapack_src]
> # src_dirs = ..
> 
> [blas]
> library_dirs = /usr/local/opt/scs_beta/lib
> blas_libs = scs
> ...
> 
> The installer complains that it cannot locate the sources, but I only want
> scipy to use the libraries. Any ideas on how to fix this?

Ask on scipy-users and provide the full output from running
"python setup.py", please.

> TIA, Maarten

-- 
Robert Kern
rkern at ucsd.edu

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
  Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
   -- Richard Harter


From noone at here.com  Sun Aug 22 10:11:39 2004
From: noone at here.com (M. Clift)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 15:11:39 +0100
Subject: Making different things equal
Message-ID: <cga9ha$4rl$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>

Hi All,

Back again...

This code works nicely giving a list of names with no name repeated at a
space of 3 i.e. you won't get 'Bob','Bob' or 'Bob','Sue','Bob'.

What I'd like to do is add a condition to it which says that although the
names are different 'Bob' and 'Mary' are equal and so it won't generate
'Bob', 'Rita','Mary'

I've tried various ways to do it, but with no joy. Any help appreciated.

Thanks, M

<code>

from random import *

Name_Number = xrange(int(raw_input("Choose number of Names (1-20)? ")))

state = [None,None]

nextName = {'Bob':['Rita','Sue'],\
              'Rita':['Mary','Sue','Bob'],\
              'Sue':['Rita','Mary','Bob'],\
              'Mary':['Sue','Rita']}

Name_List = []

tmp = choice(('Bob','Rita','Sue','Mary))

for x in Name_Number:
    print state
    while tmp in state[0:2]:
        tmp = choice(nextName[Name_List[-1]])
    print tmp, ", ",
    print
    print "Name ",x+1," is ", tmp
    Name_List.append(tmp)
    state[x%2] = tmp

    print Name_List

<code>




From ian at cottee.org  Wed Aug 25 11:23:25 2004
From: ian at cottee.org (Ian J Cottee)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:23:25 +0900
Subject: Best GUI- Python for children - pygame and blender32
In-Reply-To: <f06d8508.0408250712.63360fc2@posting.google.com>
References: <f06d8508.0408250712.63360fc2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <agnuv1-kcf.ln1@suse.zobbo.org>

Andr? Roberge wrote:

> Sorry about the cryptic subject line, but I wanted to capture the
> essence of my message in a single line.
> 
> I am now at the point of writing a "chapter" on GUIs.  I've written a
> few sections about Tkinter but I haven't shown them to my kids yet as
> I am not convinced this is the best way to go; I've read enough about
> anygui, pythoncard, pyui, easygui, not to mention wxpython, etc. to
> instill doubts in my mind.  I can't really afford to take the time to
> learn enough about all of those to make an informed decision on my
> own, decision that I could regret later on.   As long as the chosen
> GUI is as easy as possible to learn but "complete" enough (and fast
> enough as an interface?) to do fun stuff with pygame (and, possibly,
> blender3d, if a separate GUI is needed), I will be satisfied.

The PyGame website lists PyUI - http://pyui.sourceforge.net/

Never used it but might be worth looking at. Your kids might find 
Tkinter a little 'dry' for games.

Ian


From fperez528 at yahoo.com  Thu Aug  5 18:47:40 2004
From: fperez528 at yahoo.com (Fernando Perez)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 16:47:40 -0600
Subject: PEP 263 status check
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com> <4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <ceudec$ebt$1@peabody.colorado.edu>

"Martin v. L?wis" wrote:

> I personally believe it is too early yet to make lack of
> encoding declarations a syntax error. I'd like to

+1

Making this an all-out failure is pretty brutal, IMHO.  You could change the
warning message to be more stringent about it becoming soon an error.  But if
someone upgrades to 2.4 because of other benefits, and some large third-party
code they rely on (and which is otherwise perfectly fine with 2.4) fails
catastrophically because of these warnings becoming errors, I suspect they
will be very unhappy.

I see the need to nudge people in the right direction, but there's no need to
do it with a 10.000 Volt stick :)

Best,

f


From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug 30 17:05:27 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 21:05:27 GMT
Subject: Size of a remote URL
References: <ch03r1$5h9@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <41339697$0$65574$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-30, Justin <justin__devine at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Ok now I have what I consider to be a very odd problem.  It appears my
> code will not work inside a for loop but will work outside of one.
> Check it out
>
> temp =
> urlopen("http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~harnad/Temp/Ariadne-RAE.doc")
> print temp
> temp2 = temp.info()
> print temp2
> temp3 = temp2.getheader("Content-Length")
> print temp3

The above chunk of code doesn't even compile.

> for y in linklisttype:
> temp = urlopen(y)
> print temp
> temp2 = temp.info()
> print temp2
> temp3 = temp2.getheader("Content-Length")
> print temp3
> file_sizes.append(temp3)

The above code isn't proper Python: it doesn't even compile.

> THIS IS THE CODE RETURNED IN THE CONSOLE.

I've *no* clue what that means.

> AS YOU CAN SEE the connection closes when the code is placed
> in a FOR loop.  Does anybody have an understanding of why this
> happens?

You're going to have to post the _actual_code_you're_running_
if you want helpful responses.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Let me do my TRIBUTE
                                  at               to FISHNET STOCKINGS...
                               visi.com            


From mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no  Mon Aug 23 13:04:54 2004
From: mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no (Magnus Lie Hetland)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:04:54 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Standard graph API?
Message-ID: <slrncik8tm.4g.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>

Is there any interest in a (hypothetical) standard graph API (with
'graph' meaning a network, consisting of nodes and edges)? Yes, we
have the standard ways of implementing graphs through (e.g.) dicts
mapping nodes to neighbor-sets, but if one wants a graph that's
implemented in some other way, this may not be the most convenient (or
abstract) interface to emulate. It might be nice to have the kind of
polymorphic freedom that one has with, e.g, with the DB-API. One could
always develop factories or adaptors (such as for PyProtocols) to/from
the dict-of-sets version...

So, any interest? Or am I just a lone nut in wanting this?

-- 
Magnus Lie Hetland     "Canned Bread: The greatest thing since sliced
http://hetland.org      bread!" [from a can in Spongebob Squarepants]


From Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU  Wed Aug 18 17:59:08 2004
From: Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU (Michael J. Fromberger)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:59:08 -0400
Subject: Embedding Python in Python
References: <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
Message-ID: <Michael.J.Fromberger-40D0BA.17590818082004@localhost>

In article <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570 at slash_dev_slash_random.org>,
 Robey Holderith <robey at slash_dev_slash_random.org> wrote:

> Anyone know a good way to embed python within python?

    >>> help(eval)

;)

-M

-- 
Michael J. Fromberger             | Lecturer, Dept. of Computer Science
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~sting/  | Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA


From asif at go-away-spammer.com  Wed Aug 25 10:28:17 2004
From: asif at go-away-spammer.com (Player)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:28:17 +0100
Subject: Begginer question about py install
References: <cgi7bl$6m2$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <cgi7m5$f56$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>

Also PyWin32 the latest version or build, will not install with the latest
version of python, it requires 2.2 version of python, while the latest v of
python is 2.3. :(

M.B




From mcfletch at rogers.com  Fri Aug 20 13:34:53 2004
From: mcfletch at rogers.com (Mike C. Fletcher)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:34:53 -0400
Subject: Toronto-area Python Users Group (PyGTA) meeting Tuesday @19:00hrs
Message-ID: <4126363D.4020502@rogers.com>

This month we'll be having a presentation by our own Peter Hansen 
regarding his use of ctypes and PySerial to create a "robot driver" 
(don't ask me, I just work here)... here's his summary:

    "CavroCom: A Brief Description of a Python-based Robot Driver for
    LabVIEW"

    This quick talk will cover the use of ctypes and PySerial to build
    an ActiveX/COM server interface allowing a LabVIEW program to talk
    to a robot via the serial port, with a brief excursion into using
    py2exe and InnoSetup to build the distribution.

I'll bring along my own little ctypes project (wxAppBar) in case there's 
some extra time and people want to see ctypes going in the other 
direction.  We'll try to make sure there's time for general questions 
and discussion of Pythonic news as well.

As usual, we're meeting on the fourth Tuesday of the month at the Givex 
offices near Spadina and Adelaide (downtown).  We normally go to the 
pool hall (the Charlotte Room) just down the street for 
dinner/coffee/drinks afterward.  You can find all the details here:

    http://web.engcorp.com/pygta/wiki/NextMeeting

Have fun, and hope to see you all (well, those in and around Toronto) there,
Mike

[ps: resending due to apparent server failure, sorry if this shows up 
multiple times]

________________________________________________
  Mike C. Fletcher
  Designer, VR Plumber, Coder
  http://www.vrplumber.com
  http://blog.vrplumber.com



From tonino.greco at gmail.com  Tue Aug 31 05:33:06 2004
From: tonino.greco at gmail.com (tag)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 02:33:06 -0700
Subject: invalid token problem ?
Message-ID: <5db3bf00.0408310133.39de601c@posting.google.com>

Hi,

I have a xml field:

<Cell Col="2" Row="10">="Actual Asset mix
"&text($C$46,"dd-mmm-yyyy")</Cell>
                                               ^
                                               |
                               this is column 56

and am getting the following error:

xml.sax._exceptions.SAXParseException: <stdin>:21:56: not well-formed
(invalid token)

I have used the :
self.data += saxutils.escape(characters, self.transhash)

and transhash has :

transhash = { '"' : '&quot;', '&' : '&amp;' }

Can anyone please explain why I am getting the error ? What am I
missing ??

THANKS :)


From jmeile at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 10 16:46:57 2004
From: jmeile at hotmail.com (Josef Meile)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 22:46:57 +0200
Subject: Python equivalent to a C trick
In-Reply-To: <WR8Sc.10717$KZ2.9031@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <1d7b6d0d.0408092255.1177908e@posting.google.com>
	<slrnchgsml.8e4.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>
	<WR8Sc.10717$KZ2.9031@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4119327f$1@pfaff2.ethz.ch>

>>>Example:
>>>printf( "you have %i %s", num_eggs, num_eggs > 1 ? "eggs" : "egg" );
>>
>>print "you have %i %s" % ( num_eggs, ("egg","eggs")[num_eggs>1] )
> 
> 
> I would choose "!=" instead of ">" as the comparison operator.  I think the
> accepted vernacular is:
> 
> you have -2 eggs
> you have -1 eggs
> you have 0 eggs
> you have 1 egg
> you have 2 eggs
> you have 3 eggs
> you have 0.5 eggs
No offense intended, but the negative and float cases don't make any 
sense for me on this context. You can't have -2 eggs or 0.5 eggs. The 
last case won't occure as well because the output is being parsed to 
int, so, you will get "you have 0 egg", which is again false. This error 
happens with both solutions (with > and with !=).

Regards,
Josef


From nmkolev at uni-bonn.de  Thu Aug  5 07:42:11 2004
From: nmkolev at uni-bonn.de (Nickolay Kolev)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 13:42:11 +0200
Subject: Scope Problem
Message-ID: <cet6eh$tvq$1@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>

Hi all,

I have set to implementing a few basic algorithms in Python serving a 
twofold purpose: learning the algorithms and learning Python a little 
better.

I have however encountered a strange (for me anyway) scoping problem.

Here is my implementation of linear search as a method in a class, hence 
all the self's (self.sequence is the sorted sequence we are searching in 
and value is, well, the value we are searching for):

def linearSearch(self, value, index = None):

         if not index:
             index = 0

         try:

             if self.sequence[index] == value:

                 return index

             else:

                 self.linearSearch(value, index + 1)

         except IndexError:

              return -1


My problem is that this method always returns None regardless of whether 
the value was found or not. If I put print statements in there, all the 
values and indices are printed correctly though. Actually I have another 
parameter to this method called debug, if this is set, the single 
comparison steps are printed to STDOUT (omitted above to avoid clutter).

What am I doing wrong?

Many thanks in advance,
Nicky


From skip at pobox.com  Tue Aug 17 22:32:18 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:32:18 -0500
Subject: Databases: Getting values by column name
In-Reply-To: <u62av1-o3k.ln1@pilz.hasos.com>
References: <o6f9v1-6si.ln1@pilz.hasos.com>
	<mailman.1802.1092753679.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<u62av1-o3k.ln1@pilz.hasos.com>
Message-ID: <16674.49074.963073.707544@montanaro.dyndns.org>

    >> conn = MySQLdb.Connection(host=...,

    Robert> You mean MySQLdb.connect()?

MySQLdb has Connect, connect and Connection, all the same function.

    >>> MySQLdb.Connection
    <function Connect at 0xdc2930>
    >>> MySQLdb.Connect   
    <function Connect at 0xdc2930>
    >>> MySQLdb.connect
    <function Connect at 0xdc2930>

    >> I think the reason this sort of behavior isn't spelled out in PEP 249
    >> is because it varies too much from one database to another.  Psycopg
    >> (a PostgreSQL adaptor) does it differently.  Instead of specifying
    >> the cursor type when the connection is created, you instantiate a
    >> different cursor class:
    >> 
    >> conn = psycopg.connect("...")

    Robert> NameError: name 'psycopg' is not defined

Yes, you'd have to import it.

    Robert> Also wouldn't that overwrite the above conn variable?

    >> ...
    >> cursor = conn.dictcursor()

    Robert> AttributeError: Connection instance has no attribute 'dictcursor' 

Like I said, psycopg is an adapter for the PostgreSQL database.  MySQLdb is
an adapter for the MySQL database.  There are others as well.  I thought
showing how the two I'm most familiar with in this arena differ would be
sufficient.

    Robert> I already know the stuff on that page, it's really slowing you
    Robert> down :-(

I don't understand what you're referring to here.  What do you mean by
"slowing you down"?

Skip



From synesthesia at ix02x67invalid.net  Tue Aug 31 06:48:53 2004
From: synesthesia at ix02x67invalid.net (Copelandia Cyanescens)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:48:53 +0000
Subject: Size of a remote URL
References: <cgvun2$q15@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <14u30u5s3egcs$@x02x67invalid.net>

Justin wrote...

> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&output=search&num=5&q=temp+filetype%3Adoc
> 
> Go to that URL.  The first two search results do not return a
> Content-Length Header.  Yet IE still knows how big they are somehow,

I don't mean to be contrary, but yes they do. So says the almighty
Ethereal...

Content-Length: 632832
Content-Length: 30720

Respectively, for the two links you suggested.

-- 
Ask a Soviet engineer to design a pair of shoes and he'll come up
with something that looks like the boxes that the shoes came in;
ask him to make something that will massacre Germans, and he turns 
into Thomas *Fscking* Edison. 

                                 -- Neal Stephenson, Cryptonomicon



From joshway_without_spam at myway.com  Wed Aug 18 16:25:04 2004
From: joshway_without_spam at myway.com (JCM)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:25:04 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Embedding Python in Python
References: <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
	<7xu0v0l2be.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<cg09ne$ma7$1@fred.mathworks.com>
	<7x3c2kkzn8.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<cg0bjf$78b$1@fred.mathworks.com>
	<mailman.1899.1092859599.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cg0dv0$no$1@fred.mathworks.com>

Jack Diederich <jack at performancedrivers.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 07:44:47PM +0000, JCM wrote:
...
>> I don't think it's as difficult as you think.  Your snippet of code
>> would be rejected by the rules I suggested.  You'd also want to
>> prohibit other builtins like compile, execfile, input, reload, vars,
>> etc.
>> 
> foo = "ev" + "al"
> e = vars()['__builtins__'].__dict__[foo]
> print e('2+2')

Also would be rejected by my original set of rules (can't use
__dict__).  But I'd disallow vars too.


From eddie at holyrood.ed.ac.uk  Wed Aug  4 06:35:46 2004
From: eddie at holyrood.ed.ac.uk (Eddie Corns)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 10:35:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Telnet session
References: <iEPPc.23049$Vm1.463742@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <ceqe62$601$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>

"Yannick Turgeon" <nobody at nowhere.com> writes:

>Hello all,

I don't see anything obviously wrong in the structure, a simpleminded
translation to linux worked as expected even with a command to generate a
recursive directory listing which, on my machine, is huge.

What happens if set REMOVEJUNK to False?, I had to do that to see any output
but I don't know what Windows generates.  I guess what you're trying to filter
out is ANSI control sequences but I suspect you may not have that right and
you're removing ALL output.

A minor point, you only need to do the re.compile once, moving it outside the
function would be more efficient.

Eddie


From dd55 at cornell.edu  Wed Aug 18 18:51:51 2004
From: dd55 at cornell.edu (Darren Dale)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:51:51 -0400
Subject: cant install from source on MSWindows
Message-ID: <cg0mjb$1d7$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>

I'm getting the old "need visual studio 6" error message. I have seen 
advice to download the free compiler, I tried that and it didnt work. I 
have an academic copy of VS.net, tried installing that, and still no 
dice. Can somebody tell me how they have been able to get this working? 
I would like to start contributing to my favorite plotting package, but 
this is really tripping me up.

Thanks,
Darren


From nospam at nospam.com  Tue Aug 17 10:44:14 2004
From: nospam at nospam.com (Rufus V. Smith)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:44:14 -0400
Subject: Best programming language
References: <mailman.1718.1092639914.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cfpqlf$7sv$1@news.onet.pl>
	<mailman.1723.1092650117.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<873c2ndizt.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>
	<cfsqfu$co3$1@news.onet.pl>
	<mailman.1787.1092743214.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cfsu0q$ls1$06$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <bRoUc.36708$865.23621@hydra.nntpserver.com>


"Peter Otten" <__peter__ at web.de> wrote in message
news:cfsu0q$ls1$06$1 at news.t-online.com...
> Andrew Durdin wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:35:26 +0200, lopex <lopexx at autograf.pl> wrote:
> >> 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de wrote:
> >> >
> >> > the best language is of course Scheme
> >>
> >> Another flamewar ?
> >> should I claim Ruby is.. ?
> >
> > The obvious answer, of course, is that on the newsgroup/mailing list
> > for language X, define "best programming language" to be X. It saves a
> > lot of combustion :)
>
> http://dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/
>
> suggests that between Befunge and BETA there is space for "Best" waiting
to
> be filled by an audacious developer. Good name for Python 3.0, maybe...
>

I've already seen Best Computers.

Is there a www.thebestwebsite.com?

The answer is left as an exercise for the reader.

Rufus

The Best Programming language, geez.

Shortly followed by The Worst Programming Language,
Or how about :

The
Absolute
Worst
Programming
Language

or TAWPL  (for the non-english natives - rhymes with TOPPLE, which is what
happens
when you write in it).





From david at guenthners.com  Sat Aug 14 01:09:02 2004
From: david at guenthners.com (Dave Guenthner)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 22:09:02 -0700
Subject: Py2exe Question - Deployment Advice
Message-ID: <ca9de3e2.0408132109.5338c1ac@posting.google.com>

I wrote my first Python script today and was very impressed at how
concise the code was and development time.  In addition, I am using
the latest stable version of Python from ActiveState.com.  Anyway,
when I compiled my file to an exectuable I was horrified to see a
"dist" folder with all kinds of co-reqs etc that had to be distributed
in order for the program to run.

For Perl, I used the Perl2exe product and I was simply given one file
.exe to distribute.  Has anyone one else run into this before /
experienced that.  Is there a way to have just one file?

Enterprise Environment
All Windows desktop / servers w/out Python language installed

My Goal: Evaluating Python and in addition trying to keep potential
pitfalls as simple and concise as possible concerning deployment and
support.

Thanks in advance to all you guru's.

Dave


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Sat Aug  7 19:05:07 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 08 Aug 2004 01:05:07 +0200
Subject: PEP 263 status check
References: <10h58umglolefb8@news.supernews.com> <4112AB53.6010701@v.loewis.de>
	<10h5hgvpafm8a64@news.supernews.com> <41133C76.8040302@v.loewis.de>
	<10h6rklt3fa1690@news.supernews.com> <41137799.70808@v.loewis.de>
	<10h724r20kkeqb2@news.supernews.com>
	<HBF.20040806qchc@bombur.uio.no>
	<10h7u8m9qknh76e@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040808avqr@bombur.uio.no>

John Roth wrote:
>"Hallvard B Furuseth" <h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no> wrote in message
>news:HBF.20040806qchc at bombur.uio.no...
>>An addition to Martin's reply:
>>John Roth wrote:
>>>"Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote in message
>>>news:41137799.70808 at v.loewis.de...
>>>>
>>>> To be more specific: In an UTF-8 source file, doing
>>>>
>>>> print "?" == "\xc3\xb6"
>>>> print "?"[0] == "\xc3"
>>>>
>>>> would print two times "True", and len("?") is 2.
>>>> OTOH, len(u"?")==1.
>>>
>>> (...)
>>> I'd expect that the compiler would reject anything that
>>> wasn't either in the 7-bit ascii subset, or else defined
>>> with a hex escape.
>>
>> Then you should also expect a lot of people to move to
>> another language - one whose designers live in the real
>> world instead of your Utopian Unicode world.
> 
> Rudeness objection to your characteization.

Sorry, I guess that was a bit over the top.  I've just gotten so fed up
with bad charset handling, including over-standardization, over the
years.  And as you point out, I misunderstood the scope of your
suggestion.  But you have been saying that people should always use
Unicode, and things like that.

> Please see my response to Martin - I'm talking only,
> and I repeat ONLY, about scripts that explicitly
> say they are encoded in utf-8. Nothing else. I've
> been in this business for close to 40 years, and I'm
> quite well aware of backwards compatibility issues
> and issues with breaking existing code.
> 
> Programmers in general have a very strong, and
> let me repeat that, VERY STRONG assumption
> that an 8-bit string contains one byte per character
> unless there is a good reason to believe otherwise.

Often true in our part of the world.  However, another VERY STRONG
assumption is that if we feed the computer a raw character string and
ensure that it doesn't do any fancy charset handling, the program won't
mess with the string and things will Just Work.  Well, except that
programs that strip the 8. bit is a problem.  While there is no longer
any telling what a program will do if it gets the idea that it can be
helpful about the character set.

The biggest problem with labeling anything as Unicode may be that it
will have to be converted back before it is output, but the program
often does not know which character set to convert it to.  It might not
be running on a system where "the charset" is available in some standard
location.  It might not be able to tell from the name of the locale.  In
any case, the desired output charset might not be the same as that of
the current locale.  So the program (or some module it is using) can
decide to guess, which can give very bad results, or it can fail, which
is no fun either.  Or the programmer can set a default charset, even
though he does not know that the user will be using this charset.  Or
the program can refuse to run unless the user configures the charset,
which is often nonsense.

The rest of my reply to that grew to a rather large rant with very
little relevance to PEP 263, so I moved it to the end of this message.

Anyway, the fact remains that in quite a number of situations, the
simplest way to do charset handling is to keep various programs firmly
away from charset issues.  If a program does not know which charset is
in use, the best way is to not do any charset handling.  In the case of
Python strings, that means 'str' literals instead of u'Unicode'
literals.  Then the worst that can happen if the program is run with an
unexpected charset/encoding is that the strings built into the program
will not be displayed correctly.

It would be nice to have a machinery to tag all strings, I/O channels
and so on with their charset/encoding and with what to do if a string
cannot be converted to that encoding, but lacking that (or lacking
knowledge of how to tag some data), no charset handling will remain
better than guesstimate charset handling in some situations.

> This assumption is built into various places, including
> all of the string methods.

I don't agree with that, but maybe it's a matter of how we view function
and type names, or something.

> The current design allows accidental inclusion of
> a character that is not in the 7bit ascii subset ***IN
> A PROGRAM THAT HAS A UTF-8 CHARACTER
> ENCODING DECLARATION*** to break that
> assumption without any kind of notice. That in
> turn will break all of the assumptions that the string
> module and string methods are based on. That in
> turn is likely to break lots of existing modules and
> cause a lot of debugging time that could be avoided
> by proper design.

For programs that think they work with Unicode strings, yes.  For
programs that have no charset opinion, quite the opposite is true.

>> And tell me why I shouldn't be allowed to work easily with raw
>> UTF-8 strings, if I do use coding:utf-8.
> 
> First, there's nothing that's stopping you. All that
> my proposal will do is require you to do a one
> time conversion of any strings you put in the
> program as literals. It doesn't affect any other
> strings in any other way at any other time.

It is not a one-time conversion if it's inside a loop or a small
function which is called many times.  It would have to be moved out
to a global variable or something, which makes the program a lot more
cumbersome.

Second, any time one has to write more complex expressions to achieve
something, it becomes easier to introduce bugs.  In particular when
people's solution will sometimes be to write '\xc3\xb8' instead of '?'
and add a comment with the real string.  If the comment is wrong, which
happens, the bug may survive for a long time.

> I'll withdraw my objection if you can seriously
> assure me that working with raw utf-8 in
> 8-bit character string literals is what most programmers
> are going to do most of the time.

Of course it isn't.  Nor is working with a lot of other Python features.

> I'm not going to accept the very common need
> of converting unicode strings to 8-bit strings so
> they can be written to disk or stored in a data base
> or whatnot (or reversing the conversion for reading.)

That's your choice, of course.  It's not mine.

> That has nothing to do with the current issue - it's
> something that everyone who deals with unicode
> needs to do, regardless of the encoding of the
> source program.

I'm not not even sure which issue is the 'current issue',
if it makes that irrelevant.

========

<rant>
  I've been a programmer for about 20 years, and for most of that time
  the solution to charset issues in my environment (Tops-20, Unix, no
  multi-cultural issues) has been for the user to take care of the
  matter.
  
  At first, the computer thought it was using ASCII, we were using
  terminals and printers with NS_4551-1 - not that I knew a name for it
  - and that was that.  (NS_4551-1 is ASCII with [\]{|} replaced with
  ??????.)  If we wanted to print an ASCII file, there might be a switch
  to get an ASCII font, we might have an ASCII printer/terminal, or we
  just learned to read ??? as [\] and vice versa.  A C program which
  should output a Norwegian string would use [\\] as ??? - or the other
  way around, depending on how one displayed the program.
  
  Then some programs began to become charset-aware, but they "knew" that
  we were using ASCII, and began to e.g. label everyone's e-mail
  messages with "X-Charset: ASCII" or something.  So such labels came in
  practice to mean 'any character set'.  The solution was to ignore that
  label and get on with life.  Maybe a program had to be tweaked a bit
  to achieve that, but usually not.  And it might or might not be
  possible to configure a program to label things correctly, but since
  everyone ignored the label anyway, who cared?
  
  Then 8-bit character sets and MIME arrived, and the same thing
  happened again: 'Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1' came to
  mean 'any character set or encoding'.  After all, programmers knew
  that this was the charset everyone was using if they were not using
  ASCII.  This time it couldn't even be blamed on poor programmers: If I
  remember correctly, MIME says the default character set is ASCII, so
  programs _have_ to label 8-bit messages with a charset even if they
  have no idea which charset is in use.  Programs can make the charset
  configurable, of course, but most users didn't know or care about such
  things, so that was really no help.
  
  Fortunately, most programs just displayed the raw bytes and ignored
  the charset, so it was easy to stay with the old solution of ignoring
  charset labels and get on with life.  Same with e.g. the X window
  system: Parts of it (cut&paste buffers? Don't remember) was defined to
  work with latin-1, but NS_4551-1 fonts worked just fine.  Of course,
  if we pasted ??? from an NS_4551-1 window to a latin-1 window we got
  {|}, but that's was what we had learned to expect anyway.  I don't
  remember if one had to to some tweaking to convince X not to get
  clever, but I think not.
  
  Locales arrived too, and they might be helpful - except several
  implementations were so buggy that programs crashed or misbehaved if
  one turned them on.  Also, it might or might not be possible to deduce
  which character set was in use from the names of the locales.  So, on
  many machines, ignore them and move on.
  
  Then UTF-8 arrived, and things got messy.  We actually begun to need
  to deal with different encodings as well as character sets.

  UTF-8 texts labeled as iso-8859-1 (these still occur once in a while)
  have to be decoded, it's not enough to switch the window's font if the
  charset is wrong.  Programs expecting UTF-8 would get a parse error on
  iso-8859-1 input, it was not enough to change font.

  There is a Linux box I'm sometimes doing remote logins to which I
  can't figure out how to display non-ASCII characters.  It insist that
  my I'm using UTF-8.  My X.11 font is latin-1.  I can turn off the
  locale settings, but then 8-bit characters are not displayed at all.
  I'm sure there is some way to fix that, but I haven't bothered to find
  out.  I didn't need to dig around in manuals to find out that sort of
  thing before.

  I remember we had 3 LDAPv2 servers running for a while - one with
  UTF-8, one with iso-8859-1, and one with T.61, which is the character
  set which the LDAPv2 standard actually specified.  Unless the third
  server used NS_4551-1; I don't remember.
  
  I've mentioned elsewhere that I had to downgrade Perl5.8 to a Unicode-
  unaware version when my programs crashed.  There was a feature to turn
  off Unicode, but it didn't work.  It seems to work in later versions.
  Maybe it's even bug-free this time.  I'm not planning to find out,
  since we can't risk that these programs produce wrong output.

  And don't get me started on Emacs MULE, a charset solution so poor
  that from what I hear even Microsoft began to abandon it a decade
  earlier (code pages).  For a while the --unibyte helped, but after a
  while that got icky.  Oh well, most of the MULE bugs seem to be gone
  now, after - is it 5 years?

  The C language recently got both 8-bit characters and Unicode tokens
  and literals (\unnnn).  As far as I can tell, what it didn't get was
  any provision for compilers and linkers which don't know which
  character set is in use and therefore can't know which native
  character should be translated to which Unicode character or vice
  versa.  So my guess is that compilers will just pick a character set
  which seems likely if they aren't told.  Or use the locale, which may
  have nothing at all to do with which character set the program source
  code is using.  I may be wrong there, though; I only remember some of
  the discussions on comp.std.c, I haven't checked the final standard.
</rant>

Of course, there are a lot of good sides to the story too - even locales
got cleaned up a lot, for example.  And you'd get a very different story
from people in different environments (e.g. multi-cultural ones) or with
different operating systems even in Norway, but you already know that.

-- 
Hallvard


From dody at postaccesslite.com  Thu Aug 26 06:57:05 2004
From: dody at postaccesslite.com (dody)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:57:05 +0700
Subject: ASPN Python cookbook in a chm + new updates
In-Reply-To: <cgihmt$7ta$1@news3.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
References: <mailman.2345.1093432533.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgihmt$7ta$1@news3.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
Message-ID: <1434943440.20040826175705@postaccesslite.com>

> Very cool!

Thx for the support, here come another updates (26 Aug 2004)
which fixed the double spacing in codes, and even throwing
in the discussion and full comments, raising the filesize to
2.5 megs.

http://miaw.tcom.ou.edu/~dody/aspnpython-2004-08-26.chm

--
 dody suria wijaya




From paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it  Fri Aug 20 08:52:50 2004
From: paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it (Paolino)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:52:50 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4125F422.70000@yahoo.it>

d2 d2 j2

Thanks for the piece of democracy




From fumanchu at amor.org  Mon Aug 23 17:59:56 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:59:56 -0700
Subject: J2 paper 0.2.1
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E47@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Shalabh Chaturvedi wrote:
>     3. Nitpick. Since you are selling to GvR, it might be 
> nice to spell 
> his name correctly in the code examples :) Use lowercase 'v' 
> in van when 
> writing the full name.

Thanks!

> III Choosing a keyword:
> 
>     1. "Reads correctly" but only if you know that 'using' 
> preceeds the definition.

By "reads correctly" I mean it's rough English. Given the following from
PEP 8, I think I'll treat the run-on case as one we can ignore:

"Separate top-level function and class definitions with two blank lines.
Method definitions inside a class are separated by a single blank line."

>     2. "Should be easy to search for, in both docs and Google."
>        Hmm, 'Python using' is more likely to show irrelevant results 
> than, say, 'Python predef'.

True. I should probably say something about priorities. The Lang Ref
should index the word "using", which fixes half the problem.

>     3. Because of above I'd favour the 'predef' keyword. It 
> has almost 
> all the advantages you list for 'using', and a few more.

I expect to add another paragraph or two based on alternate keywords
which people support (vocally *and* technically). I would say all of the
"*def" candidates could work. In the interest of generating more content
for that paragraph ;) here's the devil's advocate view of predef:

1) It's not a word. But then "def" isn't either.
2) If it is a word, it's a verb. Dependent suite keywords tend to be
adverbial. Perhaps there's a more adverbial word which means, "set up
these items for later processing". Unfortunately for English, this form
of "predef" would be "predefining". Some synonym of "prepare", perhaps?

I'll think about it some more.

> I don't mind the @ syntax at all, but I'll consider signing 
> the proposal 
> as an alternative since I now think it to be at least as 
> good. Perhaps 
> only if you change the keyword <wink>.

Great! Thanks for your comments.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 17 14:38:24 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:38:24 -0400
Subject: Is it possible to write a DLL using python
In-Reply-To: <cft24m$njb$1@news-reader2.wanadoo.fr>
References: <cft24m$njb$1@news-reader2.wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <cftjav$2bf$1@sea.gmane.org>

AMD wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I need to write a Win32 DLL and I would like to use Python instead of 
> VB, C++ or Delphi. Is this possible?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Andre M. Descombes


The new version of py2exe 
(http://starship.python.net/crew/theller/py2exe/) supposedly allows the 
creation of dll com servers if that's of interest to you.



From jjl at pobox.com  Sat Aug 28 13:27:07 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 18:27:07 +0100
Subject: cookie
References: <mailman.2410.1093515779.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<oekxem1a.fsf@pobox.com>
	<mailman.2485.1093569409.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<87fz68v1uj.fsf@pobox.com>
	<mailman.2553.1093667904.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <877jrj5g2c.fsf@pobox.com>

Ajay <abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au> writes:
[...]
> i believe you. i didn't think it would make a difference. and i agree that
> the Cookie module preserves quotes across the parse->output cycle
> my question is
> >>> import Cookie
> >>> c = Cookie.SimpleCookie()
> >>> c["test"]= "blah"
> >>> print c
> Set-Cookie: test=blah;
> >>> c["test"] = "blah" + "testing"
> >>> print c
> Set-Cookie: test=blahtesting;
> >>> str = "testing blah"
> >>> c["test"] = str
> >>> print c
> Set-Cookie: test="testing blah";
> 
> why does the final print statement have the quotes. Note i haven't put
> str='"testing blah"'. if i had done that i would understand the quotes
> there.

Does the following help?

Python 2.4a2 (#5, Aug  5 2004, 22:07:01)
[GCC 2.95.4 20011002 (Debian prerelease)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import Cookie
>>> c = Cookie.SimpleCookie()
>>> c["test"] = "testingblah"
>>> print c
Set-Cookie: test=testingblah;
>>> c["test"] = "testing blah"
>>> print c
Set-Cookie: test="testing blah";
>>>


John


From ben at benlast.com  Thu Aug 19 15:40:00 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:40:00 +0100
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPEEICCEAA.ben@benlast.com>

> I would propose a multivote survey: each poster gets 3 votes among the
> lettered choices on the Wiki page above.  You can use all 3 for a single
> option, or split them across 2 or 3 options if you are open to more than
> one.
My vote: D1 C3 C1

ben



From npat at efault.net  Thu Aug 12 21:11:54 2004
From: npat at efault.net (Nick Patavalis)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 01:11:54 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>

On 2004-08-13, Michael Scarlett <bitshadow at yahoo.com> wrote:
> There is an amazing article by paul graham about python, and an even
> better discussion about it on slashdot.

Yes, the article is very good

> Don't complicate it. Leave it as is. Work on making it faster, not
> uglier. 

Python needs drastic performance improvement if it is to scrap-off the
"scripting language" stigma. The only way to get these improvements is
making it possible for a python implementation to produce *efficient*
*compiled* code. At the same time the dynamic-typing nature of the
language is one of its most valuable characteristics. And this is one
of the hardest problems when trying to write a decent python
compiler. If you define a function like:

  def sum (a, b):
    return a + b

How can the compiler know what code to produce? It could trace all the
applications of sum(), and decide what types of arguments sum() is
actually applied on. But this is not easy, and sometimes it is
straight-out impossible.

A different approach would be for the programmer to *suggest* what
kind of types the function will *most probably* be applied on. The
programmer might suggest to the compiler that "a" and "b" will *most
probably* be integers or floats, so the compiler will have to produce
code for a function that handles these cases (or code for two
"functions", one for each case). One might say that the function could
be "decorated" by the programmer regarding the type of its
arguments. Notice that in such a case the decoration does not alter
the behavior of the function in any way! The function can still be
called with string arguments, in which case execution will be
dispatched to an "interpreted" version thereof.

So I believe is that "making it faster" requires some fundamental
work, and not simply devising "better algorithms for some
modules". Better algorithms for some modules will give you something
like point-something improvement in performance. Being able to produce
efficient compiled code will give you improvement between a factor of
10 and an order of magnitude (depending on the type of the
program). The same it true for "making it more secure" (e.g by
providing the programmer a way to specify what types of arguments are
*allowed* to be passed to a function).

In general, python must break free from its perl-ish adolescence
(language for small things, which doesn't have to be very fast or very
safe), but without loosing its agility. Decorators might be a step in
the right direction, or at least they might allow some experimentation
with such matters.

Because of this they are welcome.

Just my 2c
/npat



From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Wed Aug  4 13:15:00 2004
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 10:15:00 -0700
Subject: file IO
In-Reply-To: <ceoi5b$51j$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
References: <cemnlj$cd1$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>	<cempg2$d1e$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<mailman.1080.1091500509.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ceoi5b$51j$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <41111cc5$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

Darren Dale wrote:

You might want to look at using ilines on your mmap'ed file's data.
<http://members.dsl-only.net/~daniels/ilines.html>
This will give you access to building a universal newline generator
from a 'block-o-characters' generator.

-- 
-Scott David Daniels
Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org


From michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk  Thu Aug 12 09:46:13 2004
From: michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk (Michael Sparks)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:46:13 +0100
Subject: [Implementation] (first attempt) Re: A decorator syntax not yet
	mentioned (I think!)
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
	<60dfb6f6.0408111846.615ee9eb@posting.google.com>
	<3YWdnYxLf--ObofcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<cffbbu$amv$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<cffgqp$cgd$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<cffkpi$hin$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <cffsja$ke6$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>

Michael Sparks wrote:
>> Regarding J2 on http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators ...
>> ...
>>>    5 Technical problems with the current grammar parser if a suite
>>>      *starts* with an optional part. (Ending with an optional part,
>>>      such as "else:" is OK, but starting with one is not.)
>> ...
>>> Item 6 is always the case for any new feature, so I doubt that's the
>>> real problem - the real problem here strikes me as item 5.
>>> 
>>> I do wonder how difficult it would be to add though...

I've implemented this now, and I have this (kinda*) working. I've
patched the 2.4a2 release from python.org and made the following
changes.
   * Kinda - there's something wrong with my implementation due to
     scoping, and since I only first looked at the python source for the
     first time 4-5 hours ago, I think this is progress :)

I changed the grammar to allow syntax J2:

--- Python-2.4a2/Grammar/Grammar        2004-08-02 07:09:53.000000000 +0100
+++ Python-2.4a2-MS/Grammar/Grammar     2004-08-12 13:21:16.577978408 +0100
@@ -30,5 +30,5 @@

-decorator: '@' dotted_name [ '(' [arglist] ')' ]
+decorator: dotted_name [ '(' [arglist] ')' ]
 decorators: decorator ([NEWLINE] decorator)* NEWLINE
-funcdef: [decorators] 'def' NAME parameters ':' suite
+funcdef: ['decorate' ':' NEWLINE INDENT decorators DEDENT ] 'def' NAME parameters ':' suite
 parameters: '(' [varargslist] ')'

I then modified comple.c to make this syntax usable:

--- Python-2.4a2/Python/compile.c       2004-08-04 11:26:08.000000000 +0100
+++ Python-2.4a2-MS/Python/compile.c    2004-08-12 14:24:50.537168480 +0100
@@ -4045,12 +4045,12 @@
        int nch = NCH(n);
-       assert(nch >= 2);
-       REQ(CHILD(n, 0), AT);
-       com_decorator_name(c, CHILD(n, 1));
+       assert(nch >= 1);
+       com_decorator_name(c, CHILD(n, 0));

        if (nch > 2) {
-               assert(nch == 4 || nch == 5);
-               REQ(CHILD(n, 2), LPAR);
+               assert(nch == 3 || nch == 4);
+               REQ(CHILD(n, 1), LPAR);
                REQ(CHILD(n, nch - 1), RPAR);
-               com_call_function(c, CHILD(n, 3));
+               com_call_function(c, CHILD(n, 2));
        }
+
 }
@@ -4085,7 +4085,7 @@
        REQ(n, funcdef);
-       /*          -6            -5   -4   -3         -2  -1
-          funcdef: [decorators] 'def' NAME parameters ':' suite */
-
-       if (NCH(n) == 6)
-               ndecorators = com_decorators(c, CHILD(n, 0));
+       /*                                        -7         -6        -5   -4   -3         -2  -1
+          funcdef: ['decorate' ':' NEWLINE INDENT decorators DEDENT ] 'def' NAME parameters ':' suite */
+
+       if (NCH(n) == 11)
+               ndecorators = com_decorators(c, CHILD(n, 4));
        else
@@ -5825,5 +5825,5 @@
                if (TYPE(n) == decorator) {
-                       /* decorator: '@' dotted_name [ '(' [arglist] ')' ] */
+                       /* decorator: dotted_name [ '(' [arglist] ')' ] */
                        node *name, *varname;
-                       name = CHILD(n, 1);
+                       name = CHILD(n, 0);
                        REQ(name, dotted_name);

====================================
The one sting in this, which I haven't figured out is that the decorate
keyword and indentation appear to knock the scoping for six (which I
suspect/hope would be simple to solve) so for *this* implementation you
need to do something like:

=========================
class Foo:
   staticmethod # This is cruft to force staticmethod into scope

   decorate:
      staticmethod
   def hello(who):
      print "woo?", who

Foo.hello("HOO")
=========================

If you miss out the cruft above, python can't (with the above small
change) find the right scope for "staticmethod".

I suspect that someone with more experience with the source tree would
be able to remove the cruft line above and allow the scope to be searched
correctly.

Either way, the argument on http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators
regarding J2 not having an implementation just (80%) disappeared :)

Should I forward this to the dev list?


Michael.
-- 
Michael.Sparks at rd.bbc.co.uk    
British Broadcasting Corporation, Research and Development
Kingswood Warren, Surrey KT20 6NP

This message (and any attachments) may contain personal views
which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.




From mizrandir at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 15 05:11:57 2004
From: mizrandir at hotmail.com (Mizrandir)
Date: 15 Aug 2004 02:11:57 -0700
Subject: Subclassing numarray's arrays
References: <df3955c3.0408140908.1b9bfb63@posting.google.com>
	<7pxTc.44307$Mq1.2286665@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <df3955c3.0408150111.1c11e05b@posting.google.com>

First of all, thanks for helping.

> Numarray wasn't designed with subclassing in mind, but there are
> workarounds for most problems.

On numarray's website there is a paper by the Numarray authors saying:
"... The new approach allows arrays to be subclassed as well as ...",
so I thought it should be something easy to do.

Anyway, I hadn't read anything about numarraycore, is it explained
anywhere. For example, I don't understand what the statement
"self.__setstate__(arr.__getstate__())" does.


> You might try something like:
> import numarray.numarraycore as _num
> class NewClass(_num.NumArray):
>    def __init__(self, n, a):
>      ''' n provides the length of each dimension,
>          a is the constant value to be plugged.
>        '''
>      arr= _num.array(sequence= n * n * [a], shape= (n, n))
>      self.__setstate__(arr.__getstate__())
> 
>    def __repr__(self):
>      " Return printable representation of instance."
>      className= self.__class__.__name__
>      className= className.zfill(5).replace('0', ' ')
>      arr= self.copy()
>      arr.__class__= _num.NumArray
>      rep= className + _num.NumArray.__repr__(arr)[5:]
>      return rep
> 
>    def __str__(self):
>      " Return a pretty printed string of the instance."
>      stri= self.copy()
>      stri.__class__= _num.NumArray
>      return _num.NumArray.__str__(stri)
> 
> 
> if __name__ == '__main__':
>    a= NewClass(2, 2)
>    print a
>    b= NewClass(3, 4)
>    print `b`

miz.


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 24 23:38:28 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:38:28 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>

Steven Bethard wrote:

> Paul Morrow <pm_mon <at> yahoo.com> writes:
> 
>>...that they warrant an entirely new syntax?
> 
> [snip]
> 
>>So why don't they share a similar syntax?
>>
>>    class Foo:
>>       """ This is the docstring for class Foo. """
>>       __metaclass__ = M
>>       # body of class goes here
>>
>>
>>    def baz():
>>       """ This is the docstring for function baz. """
>>       __features__ = synchronized, memoized
>>       # body of function goes here.
> 
> 
> As I'm sure someone has already mentioned, this has been brought up before.  
> I'd especially look at:
> 
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/048176.html
> 

Well, what I proposed there is more substantial than this, and requires 
a more significant change to the Python system to accomodate.

> That being said, I think the main objection to this syntax is the same 
> objection to any inside-def syntax:  The code inside a funcdef block (with the 
> exception of docstrings, which Guido has repeatedly said he regrets putting 
> there) is executed as part of the /execution/ of the function, not 
> the /definition/.
> 

Yes, but we have the docstring precendent nonetheless.  And I think that 
Guido should stop regretting that decision and start recognizing the 
natural beauty of it.  To allow docstrings at the top of module/class 
bodies, but not at the top of function/method bodies would be 
asymmetrical, and we'd wonder why.  Any alternative means of providing 
docstrings for methods/functions would look like a wart (IMO). 
Especially since the obvious place for them would still be there.

So, no, I for one like docstrings right where they are.  And look at 
what they create a precedent for.

When Python executes a def statement, it binds __doc__ to the docstring 
it finds there.  But what is __doc__?  It's an attribute of the method 
or function object being defined.  Yep.  Its metadata.  It's information 
*about* the method/function.  __doc__ is *not* a local variable of the 
method or function object being defined.

I believe that (virtually) all __xxx__ attributes have this metadata 
aspect (semantics) to them.  When a programmer says

    def foo():
        __author__ = 'Wilma Flintstone'
        __version__ = '0.1'

She does not intend for __author__ nor __version__ to be local variables 
of foo, used somehow by foo in the calculation of its return value.  To 
her they are foo /metadata/ --- attributes of the foo object itself --- 
as they contain information that *describes* foo.

Likewise, when she defines __lt__, __getitem__, __init__, etc. as part 
of a class, they will not typically be called by methods of the class or 
users/consumers/clients of the class [*] the way that 'normal' 
attributes will.  They contain meta info that describes a deeper level 
of class behavior.

And so if all __xxx__ attributes are really metadata attributes, let's 
formally recognize that.  Then, when processing a function/method def, 
after Python binds __doc__ to the function's docstring, it can go ahead 
and bind the other __xxx__ attributes too, making them function 
attributes rather than local variables.  And then after it's finished 
with the function def, if the function defined the __features__ 
attribute, Python can pass the completed function in turn to each 
decorator in the __features__ tuple (or some such).

No asymmetry.  No new syntax.  No warts.


* well, __init__ is a little odd in this respect as subclasses will 
sometimes call a parent's __init__ directly, but that's an exception.

Paul



From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Sat Aug  7 18:40:04 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 18:40:04 -0400
Subject: Image manipulation library under a GPL-compatible license?
In-Reply-To: <2nl3suF1vntdU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <2nl3suF1vntdU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <2nl3u4F1vntdU2@uni-berlin.de>

Leif K-Brooks wrote:
> Is there another library under a friendlier library?

Er, that final "library" should read "license". I should get more sleep.


From amk at amk.ca  Mon Aug 30 14:02:14 2004
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:02:14 -0500
Subject: PHP Documentation
References: <4133124f$0$281$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>
	<wpednS2Tk8udsa7cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<VeidneVL2-tD2q7cRVn-sw@speakeasy.net>
	<kO-dnSCAsqfSx67cRVn-vA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <pICdnUiWKv479q7cRVn-vA@speakeasy.net>

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 12:48:13 -0400, 
> Wikis can be useful for maintaining documentation, but so far
> I've seen it succeed only in very limited instances, and in this
> case without top level support (e.g. recognition by the official
> doc maintainers that this is now the master copy) I really doubt
> it will get far.  Feel free, anyone, to prove me wrong.

I can't see the Wiki version ever becoming the master copy; Wiki markup is
much less detailed than the LaTeX macros, e.g. in the Wiki you can only put
things in ``code-style``, but in the LaTeX you have \member{} and
\constant{} and \keyword{} and many other different shades of meaning.

It probably wouldn't be difficult to take the HTML rendering of the docs and
automatically import them into an empty Wiki instance that could then be
updated.  Will anyone volunteer to do this?

--amk


From adurdin at gmail.com  Tue Aug 10 03:05:55 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:05:55 +1000
Subject: Decorators
In-Reply-To: <3GURc.11274$Mq1.610387@news20.bellglobal.com>
References: <%A8Rc.50217$Vm1.1280580@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<ad052e5c.0408071826.29f1bfb0@posting.google.com>
	<10hfoqa9cj3e356@corp.supernews.com>
	<3GURc.11274$Mq1.610387@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a0408100005305dfc63@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:29:59 -0400, Colin J. Williams <cjw at sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> There is also the question of whether 'decorator', a term which is used
> in everyday langage as indicating adornment, is the best choice for a
> transformation.

def deco(f):
    print f.__name__, "is now pretty!"
    return f

@deco
def ugly_function():
    pass


From wweston at att.net  Mon Aug 23 16:29:44 2004
From: wweston at att.net (wes weston)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:29:44 GMT
Subject: Standard graph API?
In-Reply-To: <slrncik8tm.4g.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
References: <slrncik8tm.4g.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
Message-ID: <YssWc.503921$Gx4.282534@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>

Magnus Lie Hetland wrote:
> Is there any interest in a (hypothetical) standard graph API (with
> 'graph' meaning a network, consisting of nodes and edges)? Yes, we
> have the standard ways of implementing graphs through (e.g.) dicts
> mapping nodes to neighbor-sets, but if one wants a graph that's
> implemented in some other way, this may not be the most convenient (or
> abstract) interface to emulate. It might be nice to have the kind of
> polymorphic freedom that one has with, e.g, with the DB-API. One could
> always develop factories or adaptors (such as for PyProtocols) to/from
> the dict-of-sets version...
> 
> So, any interest? Or am I just a lone nut in wanting this?
> 

Magnus,
    Do you have any design thoughts. It would be good to have weighted,
directed graphs and depth first traversal.
wes



From rpw3 at rpw3.org  Tue Aug 31 22:36:14 2004
From: rpw3 at rpw3.org (Rob Warnock)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:36:14 -0500
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<%T%Yc.29567$Es2.11957889@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<du7k6vfnvx9.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>
	<4134a207$0$65568$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <j-OdnS-Q8aADqKjcRVn-tQ@speakeasy.net>

Craig A. Finseth  <news at finseth.com> wrote:
+---------------
| Ville Vainio  <ville at spammers.com> wrote:
| >... and / as path separator still screws up most of their cmd line
| >programs (which think / is for command line options).
| >Microsoft probably thought avoiding compatibility is a good idea, and
| >have only lately started to have some regrets...
| 
| Wrong.  The / was chosen as the command line option separator because
| whoever wrote MSDOS was looking to CP/M, who modelled their commands
| after a PDP-11 operating system (RT-11?).
+---------------

Which, like PS/8 & OS-8 [and "DECsystem-8" from Geordia Tech] for the
PDP-8, modelled the command syntax after that of the venerable PDP-10!!

+---------------
| Consider the "PIP" command.
+---------------

Indeed. And COPY & DEL & DIR, etc.


-Rob

-----
Rob Warnock			<rpw3 at rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue			<URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403		(650)572-2607



From FBatista at uniFON.com.ar  Wed Aug 25 14:12:57 2004
From: FBatista at uniFON.com.ar (Batista, Facundo)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:12:57 -0300
Subject: Am I on the right path
Message-ID: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C7856@escpl.tcp.com.ar>

[ADE]

#- The program is supposed to randomly choose an ip address and 
#- try and make a
#- conection on port 80

You can generate random IP like this, also:

>>> import random
>>> '.'.join([str(random.randint(0,255)) for x in range(4)])
'168.240.211.252'
>>> '.'.join([str(random.randint(0,255)) for x in range(4)])
'161.236.51.72'
>>> '.'.join([str(random.randint(0,255)) for x in range(4)])
'160.93.77.108'
>>> '.'.join([str(random.randint(0,255)) for x in range(4)])
'4.109.242.174'
>>> '.'.join([str(random.randint(0,255)) for x in range(4)])
'227.21.50.119'

.	Facundo


From cjw at sympatico.ca  Sat Aug  7 13:47:45 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 13:47:45 -0400
Subject: Decorators
Message-ID: <%A8Rc.50217$Vm1.1280580@news20.bellglobal.com>

Christopher T. King suggested that "we're trying to kill too many birds 
with one stone".
 
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=stone+birds+group:comp.lang.python&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=Pine.LNX.4.44.0408050856390.31290-100000%40ccc9.wpi.edu&rnum=1

He goes on to suggest three needs which decorators serve.  Are these the 
only purposes which are envisaged for decorators?

Most of the discussion has focused on syntax.  I would like to see some 
clarification of the purpose and meaning of a decoration.

The latest version of PEP 318 has a Motivation section which talks of 
transforming a method or function.  The possible purposes of the 
transformation is not so clear.

The use of the term decorator is questionable.  In everyday usage, to 
decorate is to furnish with adornments.  In this sense, we could say 
that a docstring is a decorator, but is that true of a transformation.
It seems desirable that we choose words which are as close as possible 
to their everyday usage.

Example 4 in the PEP 318 illustrates the enforcement of function/method
argument and return checking.  Is it envisaged that the accepts and 
returns functions become part of __builtins__?  The code seems to assume 
that the interpreter will divert the func arguments to accepts and the 
return object to returns.  Is this correct?  If so, how many trigger 
words are implemented?

Some syntactic options are provided in:
    http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators
I am inclined to support option D.  The decorator follows the function 
definition and is indented, indicating that the decorator qualifies the
decorated and is, in a sense subordinate to it. It doesn't use @.

Steve Bethard sets out the syntactic choices clearly:
 
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=bethard+decorator&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6%40posting.google.com&rnum=1

My choices would be:

Indicator:  Keyword preferred, but not | (vertical bar), as it looks too 
much like 1 or l.

Location: First line of the body.  The decorators are subordinate to the 
signature and indented like the docstring.

List notation: As ListType, with a line per entry.

Indented: Yes, no block.

Clearly, I don't fully understand PEP 318, but I wonder at times is 
decorators aren't a solution in search of a problem.

Colin W.



From avner at skilldesign.com  Sun Aug  8 09:53:07 2004
From: avner at skilldesign.com (Avner Ben)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 15:53:07 +0200
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar, but for what exactly?
In-Reply-To: <4115b53a$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com> <4115b53a$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
Message-ID: <4116239e$1@news.012.net.il>

Scott David Daniels wrote:
> ...
> classmethod and staticmethod were introduced some time ago, to provide
> a mechanism for getting to such effects.  At the time there was no clear
> syntax to use that "felt right."  In the meantime people have used these
> features to good effect despite the clunky way you used them.  At this
> point there would probably be a small riot (or at least a large whine)
> if these two were removed.
> ...

The "property" call resembles both classmethod, staticmethod and 
instancemethod, but cannot be eliminated using the new function 
decorator syntax, because of its m:1 nature  - one property binds 
together a getter, a setter etc., where staticmethod etc. change the 
status of one function in one way.

So, if the problem is to rid class definitions of bizarre function 
calls, stuck in the middle of nowhere, that actually add to the 
structure of the class (and which other OO languages solve by legitimate 
syntax), I am dissapointed to observe that functuion decorators do not 
do a complete job after all.

Talking about properties, I like the C# way of defining them, which is 
straightforward and readable. The property begins like a method, but has 
no argument list and includes a getter function with no arguments and a 
setter function with one argument. Adapted to Python, it would look 
something like:

class hasProperty:
	def __init__(self,aProperty='')
		self.aProperty = aProperty
	def AProperty:
		def get(self):
			return self.aProperty
		def set(self,value):
			self.aProperty = value
obj = hasProperty()
obj.AProperty = 'test'
print obj.AProperty


From pythongnome at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 18 19:44:46 2004
From: pythongnome at hotmail.com (Lucas Raab)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 23:44:46 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net><Pine.LNX.4.44.0408180937570.32166-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1876.1092839779.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ORRUc.2107$2L3.230@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>

Pardon me while I run away from your cane!!

"Skip Montanaro" <skip at pobox.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1876.1092839779.5135.python-list at python.org...
>
>     Christopher> I'm 19.  The only other Python programmer I know
personally
>     Christopher> is 21.  Congrats on discovering Python at 14; back then I
>     Christopher> thought VB was a godsend. ;)
>
> Whippersnapper...  At 14 I would have thought a computer was a godsend.
;-)
>
> (I'm 50, btw.)
>
> Skip




From news.malik at gmx.net  Wed Aug 25 17:40:20 2004
From: news.malik at gmx.net (Johannes Mockenhaupt)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 23:40:20 +0200
Subject: Regular Expressions
In-Reply-To: <808f000f.0408250802.8c303ea@posting.google.com>
References: <808f000f.0408250802.8c303ea@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <20040825214020.GA32170@achernar.eridanus>

On Wed, Aug 25, 2004 at 09:02:40AM -0700, Oriana wrote:
> hi!
> 
>    I've been working with Python for about two months now but I just
> started learning about regular expressions.

I found this to be a good start:
http://www.amk.ca/python/howto/regex/
it's a "Regular Expressions With Python" Howto :-)

[...]

Hope this helps, 
Johannes
-- 
 3. The most fun you can have with your clothes on.
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From roy at panix.com  Tue Aug 10 23:23:10 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 23:23:10 -0400
Subject: measuring 1/100th seconds, what function?
References: <pan.2004.08.10.21.16.01.728029@yahoo.com>
	<mailman.1475.1092179147.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-601AFB.23231010082004@reader1.panix.com>

Tim Peters <tim.peters at gmail.com> wrote:
> Note that on a box connected to a network time-correction
> service, time.time can appear to "run backwards" briefly at
> unpredictable times.

This will never happen if you're running NTP.  NTP does gradual 
adjustments to the clock rate to ensure that the system clock is always 
monotonically increasing.

It can happen if you're running some kind of time sync service other 
than NTP.  Why anybody would want to do such a thing is beyond me.


From patrick.schaeffler at siemens.com  Tue Aug  3 23:23:29 2004
From: patrick.schaeffler at siemens.com (Patrick)
Date: 3 Aug 2004 20:23:29 -0700
Subject: Can somebody help me ?
Message-ID: <9f6a3388.0408031923.11cfa62d@posting.google.com>

Hi,

I managed to open a msaccess database with python.

import win32com.client.dynamic 
db1 = win32com.client.dynamic.Dispatch("Access.Application")
dbname = "D:\\Project\\Database\\database.mdb"
db1.OpenCurrentDatabase(dbname)

Now, I have the problem, that I don't know how I can read the lines
of my table. Can somebody help me please and give me an example code ?

I'm looking forward to your answers, and thank u very much in advance.

Cheers

Patrick


From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 12 15:14:17 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:14:17 -0400
Subject: Flython?
Message-ID: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>

Just been looking at Flash and ActionScript...

In the vein of Jython, I wonder what it would take to build
a Flython?  (Lousy name, I know.)  That would take Python
source, presumably a subset since some things couldn't be supported,
and compile it into ActionScript bytecode (aka the bytecode compiled
from ECMAScript source for the Macromedia Flash player environment).

With that, it would be pretty easy to write applications which
have a Flash front end, but with pretty much all the logic
on front and back implemented in Python.

There doesn't seem to be any mention of such an idea on
the web yet.  A search turns up only part of a thread
where Cameron Laird asked about marrying Flash and Python
and I replied with a reference to use of Flash in
Twisted's LivePage... 
(http://groups.google.ca/groups?selm=vpdqlca3vkvp5c%40corp.supernews.com)

-Peter


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 18 14:39:08 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:39:08 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
In-Reply-To: <Michael.J.Fromberger-6AF702.10114718082004@localhost>
References: <mailman.1829.1092785390.5135.python-list@python.org>	<65adnQrUKILiC7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>	<mailman.1834.1092791633.5135.python-list@python.org>	<m2vffgd6pu.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>	<mailman.1858.1092832530.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-6AF702.10114718082004@localhost>
Message-ID: <cg07ob$ce2$1@sea.gmane.org>

Michael J. Fromberger wrote:

> In article <mailman.1858.1092832530.5135.python-list at python.org>,
>  Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>Good conventions prevent ambiguity.
>>
>>    class Foo:
>>       def method1(self, a, b): pass       # clearly an instance method
>>       def method2(cls, a, b): pass        # clearly a class method
>>       def method3(a, b): pass             # clearly a static method
> 
> 
> I think this is a terrible idea.  What you are proposing is essentially 
> that Python should assign special meaning to the identifiers "self" and 
> "cls" when they appear as the first variable in a method definition 
> inside a class.  I am having a hard time thinking of anything LESS in 
> the spirit of Python, short of writing in unstructured BASIC.
> 

'self' already has a special meaning to experienced Python developers, 
by virtue of its role in the recommended coding practices.  And if you 
ask experienced Python developers who understand the difference between 
class, static, and instance methods, to guess what kind of method this is...

     def foo(cls, a, b): pass

...I bet the majority would correctly guess "class".  So these words 
already do have special significance to *us* when used in the first 
parameter position.  Why not make them significant to the Python system too?


> Good conventions do not prevent ambiguity, they merely help alleviate 
> its effects.  

Maybe the problem is with the word 'ambiguity'.  How about adherence to 
good coding conventions can keep things from being interpreted in 
multiple ways.


> And a "convention" that is enforced by the translator is 
> no longer a convention, but a rule of the language. 

Right.  So a convention becomes a rule.  Sounds like a natural evolution.



> 
>>When declarations conflict with conventions, it makes us wonder what the 
>>author really intended.
>>
>>       def staticmethod setX(self, x):
>>           self.x = x
> 
> 
> I find this at least as easy to understand as the current idiom:
> 
>     def setX(self, x):
>       self.x = x
>     setX = staticmethod(setX)
> 
> 

Me too, but they both have problems.  The staticmethod declaration is in 
conflict with the use of 'self' as the first parameter.  And they both 
require more code than necessary.  Just as it would be unecessary to say...

     def private __foo(self): pass

Declarations aren't needed when an obvious interpretation of the code 
conveys the desired meaning.







From __peter__ at web.de  Sun Aug 29 04:27:55 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 10:27:55 +0200
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xzn4gwgea.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7a1o.1a5d2q410jsn2kN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xisb4xnh5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7c1a.tfdm14p3hclcN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xd61benm9.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj82n3.1ylkr3nierngmN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgpj1l$i0f$06$1@news.t-online.com>
	<7xd61b8uh2.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<mailman.2565.1093723065.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7x1xhqg3kb.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<mailman.2575.1093763487.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7xr7pqe6p6.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <cgs42b$aj3$02$1@news.t-online.com>

Paul Rubin wrote:

> "Terry Reedy" <tjreedy at udel.edu> writes:
>> >  I think it's better to extend the syntax, e.g.
>> >  import x(a,b) => __import__('x', {'a':None, 'b':None})
>> >  import x(a=v1,b=v2)=> __import__('x', {'a':v1, 'b':v2})
>> 
>> Identifier(args) is currently a call of identifier with args and
>> overloading that syntax to mean somthing similar but different is, to me,
>> even uglier in a different sort of way.
> 
> Ok, use brackets instead:  import x[a,b].
> Then it's just a matter of overloading the index operator on __import__.

@signed
@certfile('mycerts.pem')
import x

anybody?


Peter


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Thu Aug  5 17:38:20 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 05 Aug 2004 23:38:20 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no>
	<10h58s2bmjo1j67@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040805nyjf@bombur.uio.no>

John Roth wrote:
>"Hallvard B Furuseth" <h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no> wrote in message
>news:HBF.20040805p736 at bombur.uio.no...
>> Now that the '-*- coding: <charset> -*-' feature has arrived,
>> I'd like to see an addition:
>>
>>   # -*- str7bit:True -*-
>>
>>   After the source file has been converted to Unicode, cause a parse
>>   error if a non-u'' string contains a non-7bit source character.
>>
>> It can be used to ensure that the source file doesn't contain national
>> characters that the program will treat as characters in the current
>> locale's character set instead of in the source file's character set.
>> (...)
> 
> Is this even an issue? If you specify utf-8 as the character
> set, I can't see how non-unicode strings could have
> anything other than 7-bit ascii, for the simple reason that
> the interpreter wouldn't know which encoding to use.

Sorry, I should have included an example.

  # -*- coding:iso-8859-1; str7bit:True; -*-

  A = u'h?r'  # ok
  B =  'h?r'  # error because of str7bit.
  print B

The 'coding' directive ensures this source code is translated correctly
to Unicode.  However, string B is then translated back to the source
character set so it can be stored as a str object and not a unicode
object.

The print statement just outputs the bytes in B, it doesn't do any
character set handling.  So if your terminal uses latin-2, it will
output the '?' as Latin small letter r with caron.

coding:utf-8 wouldn't help.  B would remain a plain string, not a
Unicode string.  The raw utf-8 bytes would be output.

-- 
Hallvard


From john at grulic.org.ar  Mon Aug 23 16:57:39 2004
From: john at grulic.org.ar (John Lenton)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:57:39 -0300
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
In-Reply-To: <7umdnWsYNds1orfcRVn-jA@powergate.ca>
References: <mailman.2237.1093286007.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7umdnWsYNds1orfcRVn-jA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <20040823205739.GA5735@grulic.org.ar>

On Mon, Aug 23, 2004 at 03:06:09PM -0400, Peter Hansen wrote:
> Oliver Fromme wrote:
> >So, FWIW, I think both "using" and "with" are fine,
> >although both of those remind me of completely unrelated
> >things.
> >
> >("Using" as in the "print using" statement of certain
> >ancient dialects of BASIC which was used for formatted
> >output, as well as the "use" statement in perl to import
> >a module.  
> 
> I would call this a good precedent.  Or at least I'd
> say that they choose the word well for that purpose,
> and our purpose here is very similar.
> 
> (For those that don't recall this, I believe it was
> similar to if not exactly like the following, where
> it functions rather like a decorator in the sense
> of transforming the usual function in a certain way:
> 
>   PRINT USING '$###.##', total_dollars
> )

agh! I hate you! I had successfully erased that from my brain :(

-- 
John Lenton (john at grulic.org.ar) -- Random fortune:
The sunlights differ, but there is only one darkness.
		-- Ursula K. LeGuin, "The Dispossessed"
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From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Tue Aug 10 07:38:08 2004
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 04:38:08 -0700
Subject: Advanced printing using win32ui in python - help!
References: <XEUQc.48836$Vm1.1127573@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <6f402501.0408100338.7c492b03@posting.google.com>

Darcy Kahle <darcykahle at sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<XEUQc.48836$Vm1.1127573 at news20.bellglobal.com>...
> I am trying to do some advanced printing in python using the win32ui 
> module, and have run into an issue.  
[snip..]
> 
> Can anyone recommend to me how I could either specify the page to be in 
> landscape mode, or rotate the text that is printing?  Any assistance 
> that you can provide is greatly appreciated, and I am certain that there 
> are others out there that want to know how to do this as well.
> 
> BTW, I am currently using WinXP and Python 2.3, but the solution should 
> be accessible via Win98 and up.  I plan to use py2exe to run the final 
> product on other windows boxes.

I'm afraid I don't have an answer for you..... but there is a big need
for a straightforward 'print module' for windows....

It's something I have on my list to look at 'sometime' - hopefully by
finding an existing library to wrap.

Regards,

Fuzzy

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html


From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Mon Aug 30 18:30:18 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 00:30:18 +0200
Subject: file access in jythonc
References: <9eabe547.0408210611.d5e54f7@posting.google.com>
	<9eabe547.0408301406.2543e691@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <ch09pi$dh2$04$1@news.t-online.com>

> I've looked up the references below and done several searches of
> filepermissions. It seems to me that for jythonc to have any use in
> development of "practical" products, programs have to be able to
> access local files easily. If not, then this, in my opinion, is going
> to be a MAJOR issue for jython!! I love the syntax and ease of
> programming in python, but if it cannot be used for useful programs,
> why bother?! BTW, how does java handle this? Is the same problem there
> also?

Don't blame jython for things it hasn't to do with - as Alan said, java puts
restrictions on the things an applet can do. That restrictions can be
relaxed by signing the applet - go search google for stuff like java,
applet, signing, local, file, access.

A common mistake for jython users is to think that there must be special
jython related documentation for their problems - but usually its not, for
the simple reason that there are tons of docs on java out there. Jython
docs only cover the differences. So go look for java solutions to your
problems, and then feel the joy of using java-classes with a language
without checked exceptions and what not that makes coding in java so ...
verbose.


-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug  3 21:26:08 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 21:26:08 -0400
Subject: guide to introspecting python?
In-Reply-To: <UVUPc.6122$AY5.373@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
References: <UVUPc.6122$AY5.373@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <nKGdnfqEjOuupo3cRVn-qg@powergate.ca>

Mark Harrison wrote:

> What's a good document to read in order to understand some
> of python's introspective functions?
...
> PS, you will probably recognize this as my attempt to
> generate programatically the module/function/parameter
> index I previously asked about...

Isn't the "inspect" standard module exactly what you need?


From siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk  Mon Aug 23 11:58:00 2004
From: siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk (Sion Arrowsmith)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 16:58:00 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [newbie] Strange behavior of the re module
References: <2ejdi01btug5iskb4ipjpj7eaprd8i7vgm@4ax.com>
	<86hei0prvp55iom91df23tffh04egefeig@4ax.com>
	<3toei056qnmk8nkesta47mncuh49asscht@4ax.com>
	<jobfi0pld79vkqh3r2jm1ve844d0s60t23@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <WTt*cuOsq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

Fred  <fred at acme.com> wrote:
>output = re.sub('</body>', body, output)

Here's another hint: string.replace() is a lot faster than re.sub(),
and doesn't require any extra escaping of the replacement string.

Regular expressions are a bit of a Swiss Army knife in Python.
They'll do the job, but the proper tool will do it better.

-- 
\S -- siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk -- http://www.chaos.org.uk/~sion/
  ___  |  "Frankly I have no feelings towards penguins one way or the other"
  \X/  |    -- Arthur C. Clarke
   her nu become? se bera eadward ofdun hl?ddre heafdes b?ce bump bump bump


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Tue Aug 10 11:25:13 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 08:25:13 -0700
Subject: Thread for a newbie
References: <f9d01b73.0408100642.67255b58@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1092151931.22224@news.commspeed.net>


"JDevine" <justin__devine at hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f9d01b73.0408100642.67255b58 at posting.google.com...
> Hi.  I have just finished my first python program. Unfortunately
> threading has me stumped.  I think this is mostly because the
> wx.thread example demo is very complex, with all the grahphics,
> graphs, and draw functions.  I want to do something very simple.  My
> program downloads files over HTTP, I want to instantiate a process
> dialog that tracks the download.  I already have access to the
> expected size of each file through other functions in my program, I
> also assume an os.foo is capable of getting the current size as the
> file grows as it is downloaded.  My issue is keeping the file
> downloading WHILE it is being tracked by the process dialog.  Please
> help with any simple thread examples you might have, if this example
> includes a dialog even better.
> Thanks for any help you can provide.
>
> -Justin
> Justin__Devine at hotmail.com thanks

Don't use the wxPython threading example, use instead the threading module
from the standard library. It is vey easy to use and works fine with
wxPython.

Tom





From chrisks at NOSPAM.udel.edu  Tue Aug 31 00:33:25 2004
From: chrisks at NOSPAM.udel.edu (Chris S.)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 04:33:25 GMT
Subject: Debunking Art - fraudster with python AI engine?
References: <4128f60b$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>
Message-ID: <4133ff91$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>

Nick wrote:

> Naturally, I find it hard to believe he has picked up on natural
> language processing and the other various skills required to write AI
> engines in that time. My guess is he has a python AIML interpreter,
> and he's found a default "brain" somewhere and tweaked it with some of
> his own stuff in order to pass it off as his own.

So what's the problem? You make it sound like he *must* be plagerizing 
someone else's work, but PyAIML is for creating just such an interface. 
There are even free brains available. Considering the term "AI engine" 
has no official meaning, a shell powered by an AIML interpreter could 
easily be one of many possible solutions to such a setup.

[ comp.ai is moderated.  To submit, just post and be patient, or if ]
[ that fails mail your article to <comp-ai at moderators.isc.org>, and ]
[ ask your news administrator to fix the problems with your system. ]


From joshl at commenspace.org  Thu Aug 26 15:41:08 2004
From: joshl at commenspace.org (Josh)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:41:08 -0700
Subject: waiting for html to load:  a followup
In-Reply-To: <sma9em8b.fsf@pobox.com>
References: <mAoXc.19$HM.4573@news.uswest.net> <sma9em8b.fsf@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <j1rXc.1558$Yf1.48279@news.uswest.net>

John,

I really appreciate your reply.  I actually grabbed the ClientCookie 
module last night and spent a long time trying to figure out how to 
write this; your snippet of code was incredibly helpful to me.  Nothing 
quite like being totally new to a subject, I must say.

Thanks again,

   -Josh

John J. Lee wrote:
> Josh <joshl at commenspace.org> writes:
> [...]
> 
>>Anyway, I decided to forget IE and I am now trying to use urllib2 to
>>open up the page, read it, etc.  My problem is the page has a built-in
>>refresh and I don't know how to have python re-read the page until
>>it's ready to hand over the links.
>>
>>An example of the page is:
>>http://edcw2ks23.cr.usgs.gov/Website/zipship/waiting.jsp?areaList=49.0,47.0,-122.0,-124.08&prodList=NED,
> 
> 
> Example, with some debugging turned on so you can see some of what's
> going on:
> 
> import ClientCookie
> opener = ClientCookie.build_opener(
>     ClientCookie.HTTPRefreshProcessor(max_time=None),
>     ClientCookie.HTTPResponseDebugProcessor(),
>     ClientCookie.HTTPRedirectDebugProcessor(),
>     )
> ClientCookie.getLogger("ClientCookie").setLevel(ClientCookie.DEBUG)
> 
> r = opener.open('http://edcw2ks23.cr.usgs.gov/Website/zipship/waiting.jsp?areaList=49.0,47.0,-122.0,-124.08&prodList=NED,')
> f = open('out.html', 'w')
> f.write(r.read())
> 
> 
> Don't mix ClientCookie and urllib2, BTW.
> 
> 
> John


From jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu  Wed Aug 25 08:46:59 2004
From: jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu (John Hunter)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 07:46:59 -0500
Subject: building 2.1 with LFS
Message-ID: <m24qmrtmf0.fsf@mother.paradise.lost>


I am trying to build python2.1 with alrge file support.  I ran
configure in a clean build tree and then edited the makefile

# Compiler options
OPT= -ggdb -O3 -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes -D_LARGEFILE_SOURCE -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64
#OPT=           -g -O2 -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes
DEFS=           -DHAVE_CONFIG_H
CFLAGS=         $(OPT) -I. -I$(srcdir)/Include $(DEFS)


And did a make; make install


I specify the full path to the python executable, but my test for LFS
comes up negative

[root at bace root]# /usr/local/bin/python2.1
Python 2.1.3 (#1, Aug 25 2004, 10:01:39)
[GCC 3.2 20020903 (Red Hat Linux 8.0 3.2-7)] on linux2
Type "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> fd = open('/dev/null', 'rw')
>>> fd.tell()

As you can see from the build date, this was the python I just built.  

Any ideas what I'm doing wrong.  This is an incantation I've used
successfully before, so I am mystified.


I guess the best guess is that my kernel does support LFS

[root at bace root]# uname -a
Linux bace.bsd.uchicago.edu 2.4.18-14 #1 Wed Sep 4 12:13:11 EDT 2002 i686 athlon i386 GNU/Linux

Is there an easy test for this?

Thanks!
JDH


From ndeskins at ecn.purdue.edu  Wed Aug 18 15:22:35 2004
From: ndeskins at ecn.purdue.edu (Aaron Deskins)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:22:35 -0500
Subject: Newbie question about file input
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.18.19.18.24.431527@gmx.net>
References: <cfqj3s$cti$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <cft2f9$ii0$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408171010590.548-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
	<cft6vv$khm$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
	<4122328e$0$8079$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<cfvtf9$sku$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
	<pan.2004.08.18.19.18.24.431527@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <cg0a9r$5or$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>

Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch wrote:

> 
> A line without anything but whitespace characters "splits" to an empty
> list.
> 

Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware that "\n" is whitespace. I'm still a 
programming beginner and learning everyday! Any other whitespace 
characters I should know about?

Thanks again

-- 
Aaron Deskins
Graduate Student
Chemical Engineering
Purdue University


From bapeters at terastat.com  Tue Aug 24 19:33:05 2004
From: bapeters at terastat.com (Bruce Peterson)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:33:05 GMT
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <ReQWc.309030$%_6.143318@attbi_s01>



"Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote:

>One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
>Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
>about....
>
57  -- I guess I'm on the right side of the curve. I started programming with Fortran 2 back in 
high school. I regard programming as a way to make tools to do what I want -- so I've never 
regarded myself as a professional programmer. I've written a lot of code because it's been 
easier to program a computer to do a task than to train a human. 
I ran into Python about 2 years ago when I was looking for an easy way to do data animation. 
Python's ability to easily implement complex data structures sold me. 



From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Mon Aug  9 07:27:25 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 11:27:25 GMT
Subject: PEP-0318
References: <41122FC2.1080608@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1251.1091764482.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4114152f@nntp.zianet.com> <aIOdnRybBucMsIncRVn-gA@comcast.com>
	<4116bc20$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<mailman.1369.1092015284.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <c8neh0t41km1h79ufo4vkrhh78dt27vlok@4ax.com>

On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 11:34:39 +1000, Anthony Baxter 

>Guido has ruled out decorators at the top of function body, on the grounds
>that it looks like something that would be executed as part of the function,
>but isn't. FWIW, in the same thread he's noted that having docstrings where
>they are is problematic in this respect. Fortunately, with the new decorator
>syntax, we can fix this...
>
>def doc(docstring):
>    def add_doc_string(func, docstring=docstring):
>        func.__doc__ = docstring
>        return func
>    return add_doc_string
>
>@doc("This function frobulates an input sequence")
>def frob(seq):
>    ....

On one hand I find it strange that Gudio would come to this without
much, if any, feedback from the community of users working within the
status quo without raisng an issue.  You would think someone other
than Guido would have also expressed some discomfort with the status
quo if it were truly problematic.

On the other hand, when I # comment a function, my instinct has always
been to place the comment directly above the function, rather than in
the body. Which I seem to think is common practice.  So I need to
admit that with the freedom to comment anywhere, the fact that
instinct, and nothing but, has led me to place it outside  and above
the body  perhaps sabotages, a bit, my own and others position that
decorators outside and above the function is somehow unnatural.

Art


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 03:31:25 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:31:25 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: inverse of izip
References: <d11dcfba.0408182144.14aad4a8@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <loom.20040819T092507-31@post.gmane.org>

Steven Bethard <steven.bethard <at> gmail.com> writes:
> What's the inverse of izip?  Of course, I could use zip(*) or izip(*),
> e.g.:
> 
> >>> zip(*itertools.izip(range(10), range(10)))
> [(0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9), (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)]
> >>> x, y = itertools.izip(*itertools.izip(range(10), range(10)))
> >>> x, y
> ((0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9), (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9))
> 
> But then I get a pair of tuples, not a pair of iterators.  Basically,
> I want to convert an iterator of tuples into a tuple of iterators.

Sorry to respond to myself, but after playing around with itertools for a 
while, this seems to work:

>>> import itertools
>>> starzip = lambda iterables: ((tuple[i] for tuple in itr) for i, itr in 
enumerate(itertools.tee(iterables)))
>>> starzip(itertools.izip(range(10), range(10)))
<generator object at 0x008DED28>
>>> x, y = starzip(itertools.izip(range(10), range(10)))
>>> x
<generator object at 0x008E1058>
>>> y
<generator object at 0x008E1080>
>>> list(x)
[0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9]
>>> list(y)
[0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9]

Seems like a bit of work for the inverse of izip though so I'll wait to see if 
anyone else has a better solution.  (Not to mention, it wouldn't be a single 
line solution if I wasn't using 2.4...)

Steve




From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Aug  3 10:39:03 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 16:39:03 +0200
Subject: Reasoning behind nested scope
References: <mailman.1087.1091532385.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ceo852$9go$00$1@news.t-online.com>

Andy Baker wrote:

> (On a side note is there any way to call a nested function from outside
> the parent? I was kind of expecting nested functions to be addressable
> through dot notation like methods are but I can see why that wouldn't be
> quite right. This might be a better question for the tutor list...)

When you are nesting functions, you don't get one function sitting inside
another function. Instead, the function creation code of the "inner"
function is executed every time to the effect that you get a new inner
function every time you call the outer one:

>>> def make():
...     def f(): return "shoobidoo"
...     return f
...
>>> f1 = make()
>>> f2 = make()
>>> f1(), f2()
('shoobidoo', 'shoobidoo')
>>> f1 is f2
False

You wouldn't do that in cases like the above, when you get nothing in return
for the extra overhead, but somtimes nesting is useful - because of the
change in the scoping rules you now get readonly-closures:

>>> def make(s):
...     def f(): return s
...     return f
...
>>> f1 = make("now")
>>> f2 = make("what")
>>> f1(), f2()
('now', 'what')

Peter



From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Mon Aug 16 15:11:56 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:11:56 -0400
Subject: Flython
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1754.1092682594.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <slrnchq8lg.q3d.ramen@lackingtalent.com><mailman.1644.1092461737.5135.python-list@python.org><Pine.LNX.4.44.0408140153500.21775-100000@ccc2.wpi.edu><m3llgfmhca.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408161041590.8576-100000@ccc3.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1754.1092682594.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408161504370.15487-100000@ccc3.wpi.edu>

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, Terry Reedy wrote:

> The grammar in the Ref Manual, which is collected together in the above
> file, is intended and used for human comsumption.  The equivalent but not
> identical grammar in a source code file is intended and used for
> parser-generator comsumption.

Ahh... that makes sense.  I assumed they were one in the same; 
ref/grammar.txt was just more readily accessible at the time (read: I was 
lazy).

> I don't know whether AST trees exactly match the parser grammarr or if they
> effectively follow a third form, hopefully also exactly equivalent.

A quick glance through Grammar/Grammar shows that it seems to match up 
exactly to the AST trees, though I'll have to play with it to be sure.

Thanks!



From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Fri Aug 13 07:16:47 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 07:16:47 -0400
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<10ho7626f5f3f74@news.supernews.com>
	<slrncho8m9.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
Message-ID: <10hp8ok1dg0ie08@news.supernews.com>


"Nick Patavalis" <npat at efault.net> wrote in message
news:slrncho8m9.pfh.npat at gray.efault.net...
> On 2004-08-13, John Roth <newsgroups at jhrothjr.com> wrote:
> >
> > "Nick Patavalis" <npat at efault.net> wrote in message
> > news:slrncho5aq.pfh.npat at gray.efault.net...
> >> On 2004-08-13, Michael Scarlett <bitshadow at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Python needs drastic performance improvement if it is to scrap-off the
> >> "scripting language" stigma.
> >
> > More performance would be helpful. There are a number
> > of projects that are working toward that end, of which
> > the most visible is the PyPy project.
>
> >
> >> The only way to get these improvements is
> >> making it possible for a python implementation
> >> to produce *efficient* *compiled* code.
> >
> > I think there are lots of people that would dispute
> > you on that. Current Java environments run close
> > to C++ performance due to the JIT compilers
> > that are built into the runtimes.
>
> You 're right, I was maybe a bit too dogmatic on my point. But you
> must accept that JIT-compilers are, nevertheless, compilers! They may
> be more intelligent and more flexible than traditional "ahead of time"
> compilers, but still they are fundamentally compilers. Furthermore,
> for most cases, it might be possible for an AOT compiler to produce a
> "binary" that doesn't contain the compiler itself.

It's generally regarded as not worth doing, simply because
JITs might compile different code for each time through a
method if the signature changes dynamically.

> > Current JIT technology doesn't require pre-declaration of variable
> > types; it's perfectly happy to insert checks at appropriate points
> > so that it can reuse code when the object types don't change (which
> > they don't most of the time.)
>
> What you mean I guess, is that the first time a function is applied,
> it is compiled to native-code, and a signature for the application is
> generated. The next time, the application is checked against the
> signature and if they match, the existing code is used, otherwise the
> function is re-compiled (preserving the previously compiled one too,
> is some sort of "cache"). Or am I getting it wrong? Even in such a
> case though per-declarations would help.

Exactly, although the scope is smaller than a function - it has
to check other variables that the method might refer to.
Declarations don't help unless they can provide a solid
guarantee of the variable's type. If they can't, they're
useless because the JIT has to insert the type checking
code anyway.

>
> Do you happen to know of any efforts to build such "AOT"/"JIT"
> compilation/execution environments for Python?

That's part of the plan for PyPy.

John Roth
>
> Regards
> /npat
>




From fumanchu at amor.org  Tue Aug 24 21:55:55 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:55:55 -0700
Subject: J2 0-2-6 is available
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E62@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Steven Bethard wrote:
> Actually, there's an interesting argument that the "with" for 
> decorators and 
> the "with" above can be thought of in similar terms:
> 
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2004-August/235993.html
> 
> I don't know if I agree with it, but I think I'm at least 
> convinced they don't 
> have to mean *completely* different things.

FYI, I'm linking to that in the next document version later tonight.


FuManChu


From jepler at unpythonic.net  Wed Aug  4 21:25:35 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 20:25:35 -0500
Subject: optparse object population
In-Reply-To: <20040805011555.GB15014@cs.hmc.edu>
References: <20040805011555.GB15014@cs.hmc.edu>
Message-ID: <20040805012534.GB31600@unpythonic.net>

You could create a subclass of Option, overriding take_action() with a
new "store_attr" action, which would do something along the lines of

    def take_action(self, action, dest, opt, value, values, parser):
        raise RuntimeError, "untested code follows"
        if action == 'store_attr':
            objname, attr = dest.split(",", 1)
            obj = getattr(values, objname)
            setattr(obj, attr, value)
            return 1
        return Option.store_attr(self, action, dest, opt, value, values, parser)

or you could probably use "callback" in some way.

Jeff
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From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 14:48:33 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 11:48:33 -0700
Subject: wiki update: decorator syntax breakdown
References: <d11dcfba.0408111637.30c8b012@posting.google.com>
	<411ac3cc$1@nntp.zianet.com>
Message-ID: <d11dcfba.0408121048.2dafb650@posting.google.com>

Mark Bottjer <mark_bottjer at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<411ac3cc$1 at nntp.zianet.com>...
> Hm. Just as a note, I didn't spot the following (recent?) variant:
> 
> class C:
>    def c(self):
>      meta:
>        classmethod
>        doc('This is a function!')
>      pass

I think this would fall under:
Indicator:     keyword: 'meta'
Location:      post-def
List Notation: One per line
Indentation:   Indent decorators only

Right?  I added 'meta' to the keyword section.

Steve


From pwilkinson at videotron.ca  Fri Aug  6 14:25:07 2004
From: pwilkinson at videotron.ca (Peter Wilkinson)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 14:25:07 -0400
Subject: Plotting histograms, scatter plots in Python
In-Reply-To: <d1f3d1d3.0408061018.137b600f@posting.google.com>
References: <d1f3d1d3.0408061018.137b600f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040806142410.01b44928@pop.videotron.ca>


One module is Matplotlib, that seems to model the Matlab way of doing 
things .... its at sourceforge.

Peter W.

At 02:18 PM 8/6/2004, Dr. Colombes wrote:
>What is the easiest way to generate some plots and graphs in Python ?
>
>Specifically interested in simple histograms and scatter plots with
>circles and regression lines.
>
>Thanks for your suggestions.
>--
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Fri Aug 13 03:19:33 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:19:33 +0200
Subject: decorator with keyword
In-Reply-To: <X5qdnYdQdNYRsoHcRVn-rA@powergate.ca>
References: <cffcir$q5p$02$1@news.t-online.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121024260.3440-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<ArGdnWxZ4Z5ZH4bcRVn-vA@powergate.ca>
	<2o21foF65snnU2@uni-berlin.de>
	<X5qdnYdQdNYRsoHcRVn-rA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <2o37rhF6b1veU1@uni-berlin.de>

Peter Hansen wrote:
> Reinhold Birkenfeld wrote:
> 
>> Peter Hansen wrote:
>>>The python-dev mailing list doesn't appear to have discussed this one
>>>yet, but given that much of the, uh, "chatter" that I detect there
>>>is about minor tweaking of the @pie syntax, I fear they are so not
>>>likely to pay much attention to new syntaxes and it might be too
>>>late to get much support for it amongst the core folks.  (Guido
>>>referred to @pie as "the humble @decorator" yesterday...)
>> 
>> I'm sure it would help if every supporter of this syntax started a
>> thread of his own on python-dev *wink*
> 
> Glad you put the wink in... I doubt that would help the
> cause.
> 
> The syntax should be presented there, perhaps, preferably
> by someone calm and reasonable (i.e. not me), but I think
> the most valuable thing is to continue discussion here
> until it's apparent (if that's going to happen) that there
> is a fairly wide consensus that decorate: (possibly with
> a different keyword) is far preferred to @pie...  At least,
> I think that was roughly what was asked for of the masses,
> if the masses had anything to say about the matter.

Full ACK!

Reinhold

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 31 06:50:29 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 12:50:29 +0200
Subject: about presicion
References: <8f17f4bc.0408261434.1a73e874@posting.google.com>
	<2e363c08.0408261912.2358a016@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.2518.1093611862.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<8f17f4bc.0408281303.3cfb4199@posting.google.com>
	<JN6dnW6HuNiU06zcRVn-pA@powergate.ca>
	<20040829041630.28913.00001771@mb-m26.aol.com>
	<8f17f4bc.0408291552.67e3553e@posting.google.com>
	<1gjc18t.1hj0z071lwprfjN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<8f17f4bc.0408300931.7223af16@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1gjdv0x.b2iha5rsljj6N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Ali <alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com> wrote:
   ...
> ok but where can i download deciaml? waht about gmpy? which is better?

Decimal (for 2.3): file decimal.py from:
 http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/python/python/dist/src/Lib/

With 2.4 it will come as part of the standard library.

gmpy: http://gmpy.sourceforge.net.\/


"Which is better" for _WHAT_ task?  If you need decimal arithmetic,
obviously Decimal, since gmpy doesn't support it -- gmpy uses binary
throughout.  If you need huge-precision binary floats,
unbounded-precision rational numbers, very fast operations such as
factorials and binomial coefficients on unbounded-precision integers,
then obviously gmpy, since Decimal doesn't support any of these --
Decimal does its job, which is decimal arithmetic, period.

I cannot imagine offhand any task for which I would be in doubt between
using Decimal and using gmpy -- sure, they both deal with numbers, but
there's basically no overlap between their functionality.


Alex


From Brian.Inglis at SystematicSW.Invalid  Mon Aug 30 01:24:18 2004
From: Brian.Inglis at SystematicSW.Invalid (Brian Inglis)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 05:24:18 GMT
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.29.03.59.02.719953@bar.net>
	<25u2j0d9bfulqljo6d2jbls2v52l1jk3sd@4ax.com>
	<pan.2004.08.30.00.02.19.911327@bar.net>
Message-ID: <hde5j0hsk6uk96aau8rqi9k99p3v4058i5@4ax.com>

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:02:23 -0700 in alt.folklore.computers, Mac
<foo at bar.net> wrote:

>On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 06:58:30 +0000, Brian Inglis wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 20:59:08 -0700 in alt.folklore.computers, Mac
>> <foo at bar.net> wrote:
>> 
>>>On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:56:06 -0700, Xah Lee wrote:
>>>
>>>> Larry Wall and Cults
>>>> (Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
>>>> 200012
>> 
>>>> Surely you have heard of Adolf Hitler
>>>> and his atrocities of genocide? I must alert you, that a single person
>>>> couldn't commit such a crime.
>>>
>>>Wow, Godwin's law invoked on the first post of the thread.
>> 
>> Not quite, no comparison was made; see: 
>> http://groups.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=1991Oct22.140831.23313%40eff.org
>
>
>Hmm. No explicit comparison was made, but since the post is a cautionary
>tale (well, the post is a rambling mess, but I think it is trying to be a
>cautionary tale) I think the comparison is understood.
>
>But if the comparison must be explicit, as you seem to be saying, then I
>have to concede the point.

Google for the Godwin's Law FAQ on how to troll on Usenet, mention
Nazis, and not be caught by Godwins' Law. 

-- 
Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Brian.Inglis at CSi.com 	(Brian[dot]Inglis{at}SystematicSW[dot]ab[dot]ca)
    fake address		use address above to reply


From mark at prothon.org  Sat Aug  7 17:48:55 2004
From: mark at prothon.org (Mark Hahn)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 14:48:55 -0700
Subject: Prothon is switching to the .NET platform
References: <000401c47b59$32539220$0d01a8c0@MarkVaio>
	<mailman.1257.1091769173.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <11uq0duazp1vy.1g2zjz8xyfosl.dlg@40tude.net>

On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 22:12:45 -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:

> Hi Mark,
> 
> It was a pleasure to meet you at VanPy, and I was sorry that I had to
> leave in the middle of your talk (I had a plane to catch and David had
> scared me about delays).
> 
> I was pleasantly surprised in hearing your architecture for the
> Prothon engine -- it sounded like a fresh look at implementing a
> runtime for a Python-like language, and several features (like the
> locking strategy) sounded like I should be paying attention to them
> for the Python 3000 interpreter.

Thank you.  That means a lot to me.

> So now I'm a bit disappointed to hear that you're giving all that up
> and switching to the CLR.  I understand your desire to have a large
> library available (though most of that library will be class-based,
> which may require you to bring classes back in through the back door).
> But in practical terms, it makes Prothon a lot less accessible in the
> years to come.

Both Dave and Paul pointed out IronPython to me at the workshop and how it
could get Prothon a library and therefore a community much faster than
going it the hard way like you did.  There is a general feeling going
around that multiple language VM's are the "in-thing".

I've got a kind of catch-22 that I'm worried about.  I have no one helping
me write libraries because they aren't using Prothon and no one will use
Prothon without libraries.  They got me thinking that .Net would break the
catch-22.

Do you have any other ideas on how I could get a decent library in a decent
timeframe?

> I recall that installing .NET on Windows took me half a day.  Maybe
> it's gotten better, but I sure can't believe they've shrunk it.  Mono
> gives you theoretical support on Linux, but it's even more of a
> questionable proposition to actually run it (and its set of supported
> runtime libraries has only a small intersection with what's available
> in .NET).  Basically, telling people "here's my language, it's a 2 MB
> download, and oh, BTW, you also need to install the 200 MB runtime
> over there" isn't exactly encouraging people to play with your
> language.  Even for apps written in Java this is a significant barrier
> -- I have several copies of Java on my hard drive because every
> significant application written in Java ends up needing a different
> JVM version.  And the JVM I downloaded last year is probably too old
> to run this year's crop of bleeding edge Java apps.  Availability of
> the CLR is a lot less than Java.

.Net and Mono may not be the greatest solution in the world, but they have
a shot at running Prothon.  I looked into Parrot and CPython and neither
one could do the job. 

> I'm also surprised because you admit to being a poor language designer
> (although you picked a great example :-).  I assumed this to mean that
> you're having more fun implementing the runtime.  But if you're not
> doing it for the language design, and now you're giving up on the
> runtime, what's left?

Just because I am not a good language designer does not mean I am not a
good project manager and programmer.  I would not enjoy working on the fun
parts of the VM knowing that some other path existed where the language and
community could grow faster.  I guess I'm finding out I'm more motivated by
Prothon's overall success than "programming fun".

There will still be a lot of fun left.  IronProthon will still be prototype
based.  It's a long story but the CLR will be capable of running my
prototypes, the co-routines, and everything in Prothon except light-weight
threads, object locking, and the locking-based features.

> Hoping your website was hacked or it was practical joke

The anti-.NET forces are just starting to appear now on the Prothon mailing
list.  It is starting to get interesting.  I can always change my mind as I
have many times in this project.  I'm kind of famous for that.  Right now
though the idea of having Prothon be something that could be truly useful
in a matter of months instead of years is very attractive to me.

BTW: I hope my new website verbage isn't offensive to you.  In the past I
wasn't considering Prothon a successor to Python as I was leaving that for
Python 3000, but when you said that 3000 was mostly going to change range
to an iter I had a change of heart. :-)  Were you serious about that?

Mark Hahn


From harry.g.george at boeing.com  Fri Aug  6 09:45:35 2004
From: harry.g.george at boeing.com (Harry George)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 13:45:35 GMT
Subject: advice for perl expert wanting to learn python
References: <slrncguga2.fcp.mordor@fly.srk.fer.hr>
	<cevpef$bku$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
Message-ID: <xqxacx8l6rk.fsf@cola2.ca.boeing.com>

David Fraser <davidf at sjsoft.com> writes:

> Zeljko Vrba wrote:
> > Now, why would I like to learn Python: because of IronPython port to CLR.
> > Perl port to CLR doesn't seem to be coming soon. First Perl6 for Parrot has
> > to be written, and then other backends..
> > What's the easiest way of learning python knowing perl? 

For experienced scripters, I find Beazley's "Python Essential
Reference" is excellent.  You already know what you want, just need to
see how Python does it, and don't need a lot of handholding.  Get a
copy of "Python Cookbook" too, and scan that.  Then rewrite one of
your exsiting perl scripts.

> > Is there
> > somewhere
> > a 'how-to' cookbook with parallel examples of frequent idioms in perl and
> > python?

An interesting variant on that is my pyperlish module, at
http://www.seanet.com/~hgg9140/comp/index.html

You can either use it as-is, or read the code to see how to emulate
perl in python.  NOTE: I do not recommend using pyperlish once you get
the hang of python.


> > And most important thing, how does Python deal with database
> > connectivity?
> > Is there a single API (akin to DBI) for connecting to databases?
> > How does Python support the following databases:
> > - Oracle
> > - Postgres
> > - MySQL
> > - SQLServer (maybe using freetds?)
> > - ODBC connectivity (connecting to MS Access)
> >
> 
> I have used Oracle, SQLServer and Access via ADO - try adodpapi.sf.net
> which is a wrapper for ADO to the Python DB-API.
> But note that you may well not be able to use any of this database
> stuff from IronPython
> 
> David

More cross-platform and cross-DBMS is to code to the DB-API 2.0:
http://www.python.org/topics/database/

-- 
harry.g.george at boeing.com
6-6M21 BCA CompArch Design Engineering
Phone: (425) 342-0007


From xtian at toysinabag.com  Mon Aug  9 18:06:50 2004
From: xtian at toysinabag.com (xtian)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 15:06:50 -0700
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar, but for what exactly?
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
	<4115b53a$1@nntp0.pdx.net> <4116239e$1@news.012.net.il>
	<d111eafa.0408081949.3c28a465@posting.google.com>
	<d111eafa.0408090138.23bc6989@posting.google.com>
	<4117a43b$1@news.012.net.il>
Message-ID: <d111eafa.0408091406.a125d87@posting.google.com>

Avner Ben <avner at skilldesign.com> wrote in message news:<4117a43b$1 at news.012.net.il>...
> xtian wrote:
> >[snip]
> > 
> > def property_(f):
> >     return property(*f())
> 
> Where has the property Without Underscore come from?
> 

property has been a builtin since 2.2, along with classmethod and
staticmethod - it's part of the new-style classes guff.

See: http://www.python.org/2.2/descrintro.html#property
(You'll probably want to read the whole thing.)


> >[snip]
> >     
> > t = DecorationTest()
> > print t.foo
> > t.foo = 3
> > print t.foo
> > 
> 
> Will you please explain how the assignment and retrieval work?
> 
> 	Avner.

The key to it is that the property call makes foo a descriptor, with
__get__ and __set__ methods that use the getter and setter we passed
in. That's what triggers the attribute-getting and -setting methods.

The descriptor API is a big part of the type/class unification. here's
some more information: http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0252.html
(I haven't actually finished reading it myself - if my explanation's a
bit garbled, ignore it and read the link. :)

Hope that helps!
xtian


From arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE  Sun Aug 15 14:29:52 2004
From: arien_malec at yahoo.com.REMOVE (Arien Malec)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 18:29:52 GMT
Subject: PEP 318 decorators are not Decorators
References: <Xns9543CB4CF5EDFarienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.7>
	<cfhsri$a1q$1@news1.wdf.sap-ag.de>
	<Xns95446284A8DA2arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.29>
	<mailman.1625.1092418237.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Xns9544A70A17365arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>
	<mailman.1662.1092523102.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Xns9546756484138arienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.29>

Skip Montanaro <skip at pobox.com> wrote in
news:mailman.1662.1092523102.5135.python-list at python.org: 

> 
>     Arien> 3) Won't most programmers think GoF decorators before
>     Arien> compiler syntax tree decorators?
> 
>     Skip> Not if they are unfamiliar with the GoF patterns (myself
>     included). 
> 
>     Arien> Google: [~62,000 : ~130 mentions of each sort of decorator]
> 
>     ...
> 
> BFD.... The thing is, just because in a verbal Rohrschach
> test you think "GoF" when someone says "decorator" doesn't mean
> everybody else will (or should).

Clearly, Python can choose any name for the auto-function-transformation 
syntax in question, but it's rather willfully confusing to choose a name 
that's heavily identified with a profoundly different semantics that's 
superficially similar in intent.

Arien


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 11:58:01 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 01:58:01 +1000
Subject: allowing braces around suites
In-Reply-To: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082708585d615e54@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:29:58 +0200, Kjetil Torgrim Homme
<kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no> wrote:
> what do you think?  should I write a PEP?

I've changed my mind. You should indeed write a PEP. I strongly
suggest you adopt the spirit of PEP-666 in doing this, as a PEP on
braces will get the same response. I'd even suggest PEP 667 (The
Neighbour of the Beast) as the PEP number.

Think of it as a public service - you can stop this idea coming up again.

Anthony


From josh at chatgris.com  Tue Aug  3 21:46:06 2004
From: josh at chatgris.com (Joshua Moore-Oliva)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 21:46:06 -0400
Subject: asyncore, asynchat and threads
Message-ID: <200408032146.06130.josh@chatgris.com>

Ok..  so here is my situation.  

I have an application that I would love to be able to use asynchat with for it's handle_close, found_terminator etc abstraction on.

However, I must use a separate thread for each connection as the work resulting from the communication can result in blocking for an indefinate period of time.

What I would love to do for each thread that is created, is to spin off an asynchat subclass and manually run some kind of loop() function that will do the 
polling//select etc for me, in a threadsafe manner, only on the one asynchat class/connection for that thread (e.g. I supply variables to keep track of the data)

I have come across some sparse documentation that mentioned asyncore.loop() can be supplied a map of some sorts to loop through..  However, I have no idea
how to create this map to pass to asyncore.loop, nor what thread-safe precautions (if any) I need to make.

A simple example of a thread-safe way to create an asynchat subclass and get it to run would be great...

even any pointers, help, ideas on how to make something like this work would be greatly appreciated as well.

Thanks, Joshua Moore-Oliva


From michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk  Thu Aug 26 11:25:23 2004
From: michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk (Michael Sparks)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:25:23 +0100
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgkeio$spo$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2411.1093517690.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<du7brgyt8hm.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi> <opsdb950eb1v4ijd@musicbox>
	<cgkq0i$3ii$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2428.1093531460.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgkvtr$5l1$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>

Anthony Baxter wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:44:27 +0100, Michael Sparks
> <michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>> Using proposed J2: (tested)
>> class Foo:
>>    using:
>>       staticmethod
>>       eval("(memoise,esiomem)[x==0]")
>>    def Hoo(Who, *args):
>>       print "Yoo", Who
> 
> Why wouldn't you instead write this as:
...
[alternative using an if statement before]
...
> Don't use eval unless it's absolutely necessary, _please_.

The question was asking about using a conditional expression in the
decorator list. Since the closest equivalent as an expression that
evaluates to a function is something like (memoise,esiomem)[x==0] and
since you can only put function calls there, that was why I put eval
there.

I suppose instead I could've had:

def identity(actualFunc):
   def decorate(func):
      return actualFunc(func)
   return decorate

class Foo:
   @staticmethod
   @identity((memoise,esiomem)[x==1])
   def Hoo(Who, *args):
      print "Yoo", Who

Which is nicer, but still pretty hideous. I'd agree that the preceding
if statement approach is better than a conditional expression.

Regards,


Michael.
-- 
Michael.Sparks at rd.bbc.co.uk    
British Broadcasting Corporation, Research and Development
Kingswood Warren, Surrey KT20 6NP

This message (and any attachments) may contain personal views
which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.



From ville at spammers.com  Tue Aug 24 15:20:16 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 22:20:16 +0300
Subject: Python and C, looking for a C IDE
References: <6f402501.0408240353.2a5b8a84@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <du74qmstkb3.fsf@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Michael" == Michael Foord <fuzzyman at gmail.com> writes:

    Michael> That aside - Pyrex looks the kiddie. Can anyone reccomend
    Michael> a reasonable C IDE ? An 'IDE' would be nice, but an
    Michael> editor might be sufficient.

IDE isn't really necessary for C - OO/modular languages like Java/C++
benefit more from IDEs. You might do better by just picking an editor
(e.g. something like Emacs or Jed) and putting the compilation
commands in a python script (or a bat file), or learn make.

Then again, there is Eclipse, the IDE to end all IDEs. It supports
C/C++ too.

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From ods at strana.ru  Mon Aug 23 12:10:42 2004
From: ods at strana.ru (Denis S. Otkidach)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:10:42 +0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <2omet9Fc2v4mU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<2omet9Fc2v4mU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <20040823201042.7ef5c056.ods@strana.ru>

C2 C2 C1

-- 
Denis S. Otkidach
http://www.python.ru/      [ru]


From indigo at bitglue.com  Mon Aug 23 17:08:44 2004
From: indigo at bitglue.com (Phil Frost)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:08:44 -0400
Subject: decompyle available anywhere?
In-Reply-To: <vZGdnbY0heBA17fcRVn-tg@is.co.za>
References: <vZGdnbY0heBA17fcRVn-tg@is.co.za>
Message-ID: <20040823210844.GA31519@unununium.org>

http://www.freshports.org/devel/decompyle

On Mon, Aug 23, 2004 at 09:50:43PM +0200, Chris Becke wrote:
> There used to be a module, decompyle, that decompiled .pyc files up to
> version 2.2 of python. Decompyle for 2.3 is now a paid for web service and
> the 2.2 decompyle seems to have been yanked.
> 
> Is there some site out there still hosting it? Preferably a win32 version,
> but I guess beggars can't be choosers.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Chris.


From heikowu at ceosg.de  Fri Aug  6 10:12:14 2004
From: heikowu at ceosg.de (Heiko Wundram)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 16:12:14 +0200
Subject: 'Using is not None, may not always work'
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.06.13.15.28.336325@dougfort.com>
References: <pan.2004.08.06.13.15.28.336325@dougfort.com>
Message-ID: <200408061612.14305.heikowu@ceosg.de>

Am Freitag, 6. August 2004 15:15 schrieb Doug Fort:
> Since I installed 2.4a2 I've been getting a warning from pychecker: Using
> is not None, may not always work'. I thought 'is not None' was the right
> thing to do. I've had problems with 'if not x:', because some objects
> return False in this context.

That's probably what pychecker warns you about: that you might get an object 
in the respective context which evaluates to boolean false, but is not 
None... Although I'd find this strange...

Heiko.


From kowald at molgen.mpg.de  Mon Aug 16 11:08:15 2004
From: kowald at molgen.mpg.de (Axel Kowald)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 08:08:15 -0700
Subject: Regular expression problem with groups
Message-ID: <9b5e8d9.0408160708.37aa9ae3@posting.google.com>

Hi everybody,

I have a 'simple' problem with regular expressions. Maybe someone can
help me.

import re
bla = 'the the'
obj = re.search('(.+) \1',bla)

obj.group(1) should now be 'the'. Instead obj is none (python 2.3
under windows and 2.1 under linux). The problem seems to be the \1
where I try to reference the first group. However, every tutorial says
this is the correct way to do it !?

Any ideas what I'm doing wrong ?

Many thanks,
   
               Axel


From jacek.generowicz at cern.ch  Tue Aug 31 03:51:34 2004
From: jacek.generowicz at cern.ch (Jacek Generowicz)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 09:51:34 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<tyf3c28ps1t.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
	<1ry8k0d2az.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<tyfy8jxnlch.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
	<1r1xhob27n.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <tyfhdqjoid5.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>

Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho at yksi.ifi.uio.no> writes:

> "I don't subscribe to programming dogmas", hmm?  I guess "braces are
> unworthy of Python" isn't dogma, it's the Truth.

Yes, it probably qualifies as dogma. But I don't subscribe to it. I'm
merely questioning the relative appropriateness of braces to that of
using 'pass' to help your editor automatically indent your
code. Different people's judgments will differ on this. The same
person's judgment may well change with time.

But do remember that variations on the theme of "let's have some
braces" have been done so many times, and not once (to my knowledge,
which is by no means complete) has one had any noteworthy success.

OTOH, given that the @pie syntax that has made it into an alpha
release, who knows ... I never thought I'd see that day.


From me at privacy.net  Wed Aug  4 07:21:09 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Dan Sommers)
Date: 04 Aug 2004 07:21:09 -0400
Subject: Class optimization at runtime
References: <m2hdrl2ch5.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
	<10gvtipb5t0hl44@corp.supernews.com>
	<cep13o$9f5$00$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <m2n01bywre.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>

On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 23:46:32 +0200,
Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:

> Jeff Shannon wrote:
>> Or even better:
>> 
>> if option:
>> import WithOption as FooModule
>> else:
>> import WithoutOption as FooModule
>> 
>> x = FooModule.Foo( )
>> 
>> (I twitch every time I see 'from X import *' ...)

Yep, you're right.  I always forget about the "as" option.

> That, and mixed-case module names -- and no, I'm not advertising
> all-uppercase here...

My mistake again.  The names I chose were for illustrative and
explicative purposes only; nothing else was (meant to be) implied.

For the record, then, it would look like this:

    if option:
        import optionon as optionmodule
    else:
        import optionoff as optionmodule

    x = optionmodule.Foo( )

(assuming we can live with an Initialcaps class name).

It also now strikes me that a package might be appropriate here:  Let
__init__.py sort things out and set up the package's namespace
accordingly; then the rest of the program would just use the package
obliviously.  But:

    - __init__.py has to have access to the option variable (solutions
       abound; good solutions are less plentiful and vary over time and
       space);

    - given (a) my recent track record for getting the details correct
        and (b) my lack of experience with the package system, I humbly
        leave the rest of such a solution to the interested reader.

Regards,
Dan

-- 
Dan Sommers
<http://www.tombstonezero.net/dan/>
Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.


From adurdin at gmail.com  Sat Aug 21 11:24:18 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 01:24:18 +1000
Subject: __metaclass__ and __author__ are already decorators
In-Reply-To: <cg7mo9$r8r$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <cg7mo9$r8r$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a040821082410ac872d@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:38:01 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Thinking about decorators, and looking at what we are already doing in
> our Python code, it seems that __metaclass__, __author__, __version__,
> etc. are all examples of decorators.  So we already have a decorator
> syntax.  What is the compelling reason to invent a new one?  And if we
> do, what's to become of the old one?

__author__ and __version in a class (as per your example) are setting
class attributes, not "decorating" the class anymore than the def's
that declare instance methods are.
Within a function, __author__ and __version__ are local variables, and
nothing more; specifically, assigning to them does *not* set function
attributes:

  >>> def foo():
  ...     __author__ = "me"
  ...     return 5
  ...
  >>> print foo.__author__
  Traceback (most recent call last):
    File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
  AttributeError: 'function' object has no attribute '__author__'
  >>> print foo.func_code.co_varnames
  ('__author__',)

__metaclass__ on the other hand is a magic attribute. I haven't worked
out the details, but I have the feeling that what a metaclass does to
a class is not replicable merely by decorating the class; in other
words, that:

  class Foo:
      __metaclass__ = Bar

is *not* equivalent to

  class Foo:
      pass

  Foo = Baz(Foo)

for any definitions of Bar and Baz. This is just my intuition, however.


From spamnews at gmx.de  Wed Aug  4 06:21:11 2004
From: spamnews at gmx.de (Detlef Jockheck)
Date: 4 Aug 2004 03:21:11 -0700
Subject: syntax-check with regular expressions?
References: <b5a042c1.0407270400.13d9c94b@posting.google.com>
	<tIrNc.17482$OH4.411663@twister1.libero.it>
Message-ID: <b5a042c1.0408040221.7c09a56a@posting.google.com>

Matteo Dell'Amico <della at toglimi.linux.it> wrote in message news:<tIrNc.17482$OH4.411663 at twister1.libero.it>...
> Detlef Jockheck wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I would like to check if a string contains a valid date format
> > (Format: "dd.mm.yyyy") or not.
> > 
> > What is the best way to do this. regexp? At the moment it would be
> > sufficient to check for
> > [digit][digit].[digit][digit].[digit][digit][digit][digit] but a full
> > date verification (Month in range 1-12 ...) would be very nice too.
> > 
> > Sample code would help me very much.
> > 
> > regards
> > Detlef
> > 
> > PS: I'm a python newbie, so excuse this silly question
> 
> This should work, returning True for valid dates and False otherwise:
> 
> import re
> 
> _re = re.compile(r'(\d{2})\.(\d{2})\.(\d{4})$')
> def testdate(s):
>      try:
>          day, month, year = [int(x) for x in _re.match(s).groups()]
>      except AttributeError:
>          return False
>      return 1 <= day <= 31 and 1 <= month <= 12
> 
> Implementing things such as different number of days for each month and 
> leap years is left as an exercise to the reader. :-)

Hi!

That's great. Now I understand how this works. Thank you very much :-)

regards
Detlef


From Kevin.Smith at sas.com  Tue Aug 17 18:16:55 2004
From: Kevin.Smith at sas.com (Kevin Smith)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 22:16:55 GMT
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
Message-ID: <20040817181725194-0400@braeburn.themorgue.org>

For what it's worth, I wrote the original PEP 318.  I probably wasn't 
qualified, but I just wanted a nice simple way to declare class methods 
without having to repeat the function name.  After submitting it to BDFL 
for approval, more work was needed and the discussion of PEP 318 on 
python-dev increased rapidly.  It was evident that I was in over my head, 
so I asked more someone more experienced to take over.  

I guess others had bigger plans for my proposal that I had planned.  It 
has turned into the "solution" to many problems: type checking (both 
arguments and returned values), metaclasses, metadata, interfaces, 
function attributes, etc.).  Unfortunately, in the process, this simple 
request for syntactical sugar has turned into a monstrosity.  In my 
opinion, none of the proposed syntaxes really seem Pythonic.  This PEP 
just seems to be trying to solve too many problems.

Bear with me, but I'd like to propose one more syntax that is simple, 
easy for newbies to understand,  and nowhere near as powerful as the 
current PEP's syntax.  However, it doesn't add incoherent, arbitrary 
syntax either.

def classmethod foo(x, y, z):
    pass

That's it.  One "decorator" that is a callable object that takes a 
method as it's only argument.  No expressions, lists, tuples, etc.  Just 
one callable object.  Ok, if you absolutely must have more than one.

def classmethod synchronized foo(x, y, z):
    pass

Once again, no expressions.  I know that this isn't going to solve 
everyone's type-checking, metadata, and function attribute problems, but 
let's face it, using this PEP for all of those things just creates ugly 
syntax.  There must be more Pythonic ways to do those things in their 
own PEPs. 

-- 
Kevin Smith
Kevin.Smith at sas.com


From grante at visi.com  Fri Aug  6 12:14:38 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 06 Aug 2004 16:14:38 GMT
Subject: Queue qsize = unreliable?
References: <mailman.1277.1091805846.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<zeCdnfT6tL31Oo7cRVn-tg@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <4113ae6e$0$65563$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-06, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:

>> I see per pydoc that Queue.Queue()'s .qsize is allegedly unreliable:
>> 
>>      |  qsize(self)
>>      |      Return the approximate size of the queue (not reliable!).
>> 
>> Any thoughts on why this is unreliable (and more curiously, why it would
>> be put in there as an unreliable function?) Rather than roll my own
>> threaded fifo class, it would seem prudent to use Python's built-in
>> Queue but the warning signs on a rather necessary function seem curious.
>
> (Why do you think this function is necessary?  It's probably
> rare to really need it, except perhaps during debugging... )
>
> Anyway, the reason it's called "unreliable", though the term
> "inaccurate" might be more correct, is because while you are
> getting the size of the queue, it might be updated such that
> the new size is one or more fewer or larger than the value
> that is about to be returned to you.

I don't think that's any reason to call the function either
unreliable or inaccurate.  If you're operating in a
multi-threaded environment, such a statement is trivially true
about anything that accesses shared data.

For example: time.time() needs a disclaimer that it is
unreliable, since the result it returns is incorrect by the
time you get around to using it...

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Spreading peanut
                                  at               butter reminds me of
                               visi.com            opera!! I wonder why?


From stanislav.paska at kios.sk  Tue Aug  3 04:02:42 2004
From: stanislav.paska at kios.sk (Stano Paska)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 10:02:42 +0200
Subject: advice for perl expert wanting to learn python
In-Reply-To: <slrncguga2.fcp.mordor@fly.srk.fer.hr>
References: <slrncguga2.fcp.mordor@fly.srk.fer.hr>
Message-ID: <410F46A2.9010901@kios.sk>

Zeljko Vrba wrote:

> Now, why would I like to learn Python: because of IronPython port to CLR.
> Perl port to CLR doesn't seem to be coming soon. First Perl6 for Parrot has
> to be written, and then other backends..
> 
> What's the easiest way of learning python knowing perl? Is there somewhere
> a 'how-to' cookbook with parallel examples of frequent idioms in perl and
> python?

http://pleac.sourceforge.net/

> 
> And most important thing, how does Python deal with database connectivity?
> Is there a single API (akin to DBI) for connecting to databases?

Yes, python has defined single API

> 
> How does Python support the following databases:
> - Oracle
> - Postgres
> - MySQL
> - SQLServer (maybe using freetds?)
> - ODBC connectivity (connecting to MS Access)
> 

I have tried MySQLdb package and mdb connectivity through
win32com.client package.
I read about Postgres and Oracle connectivity...

Stano Paska.





From nospam at here.com  Mon Aug 30 10:02:05 2004
From: nospam at here.com (Richard Townsend)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 15:02:05 +0100
Subject: Getting other file permissions
References: <cgv215$pp4$04$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <eo3uf44uchzk$.1glenoj0hsuz3.dlg@40tude.net>

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:11:32 +0200, Florian Lindner wrote:
> on a Unix System I want to get the file permissions for other. How to get
> this? Is os.stat("file").st_mode the right way? How to interpret the
> output?


See S_IMODE(mode) on page:

http://www.python.org/doc/2.3.4/lib/module-stat.html



From jjl at pobox.com  Wed Aug 11 18:59:04 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 23:59:04 +0100
Subject: ClientCookie
References: <6f402501.0408110018.1e4e5ca8@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <87acx1qo1z.fsf@pobox.com>

fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord) writes:

> Has anyone used ClientCookie to store cookies ? 
> I'm going to play around with 'pickling cookies' - but I wondered if
> anyone had any experience of this.
> 
> (For session persistence in approx - my cgi proxy)

Just thought to add:

1. are you using a database for this? (you should be) Look at
   BSDDBCookieJar.  BSDDBCookieJar isn't well-tested, but might be
   just the ticket for what you're doing.  It's not in cookielib yet,
   but the one from ClientCookie 0.9.x should work fine with
   cookielib, and I'll make it available in a separate package RSN,
   along with the other stuff in ClientCookie but not in cookielib.

2. here's a simpler way (in a sense) of serialising a CookieJar than
   pickling:

cj = cookielib.CookieJar()
...
s = [repr(c) for c in cj]


   and unserialising:

cj = cookielib.CookieJar()
for cs in s:
    cj.set_cookie(eval(cs))
...

   You'd still need to write something like BSDDBCookieJar, though, if
   I understand what you're doing.


John


From jbperez808 at wahoo.com  Fri Aug  6 15:34:39 2004
From: jbperez808 at wahoo.com (Jon Perez)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 03:34:39 +0800
Subject: threads: not locking read-only objects
Message-ID: <2ni4b4F16u92U1@uni-berlin.de>

Is it safe to not put a lock on an object if it will always
be read-only in other threads and will only ever be written to
in just one and always the same one thread?


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Tue Aug 24 11:14:06 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 17:14:06 +0200
Subject: Regular expression guaranteed to fail
References: <yyrjacwqdrlk.fsf@pc156.maths.bris.ac.uk>
	<cg4p0p$6v7$1@news-reader1.wanadoo.fr>
	<HBF.20040822jyb6@bombur.uio.no>
	<96jmi0pt39frp5n3r34afrt21cfeclp0mi@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040824b8b4@bombur.uio.no>

Greg Chapman wrote:
> Why not just "(?!)": this always fails immediately (since an empty pattern
> matches any string, the negation of an empty pattern match always fails).

It's fine for re.match.

'Why not?': Because I'd expect re.search to walk through the entire
string and check if each position in the string matches that regexp.
Unfortunately, a little timing shows that that happens with _every_
regexp suggested so far.  Long strings take longer for each of them.
(Except Jeremy's solution, of course, which avoids the whole problem.)
r'\A(?!)' or r'\Ax\A' didn't work either.

Anyway, I note that r'x\A' beats all the other regexps suggested so far
with a factor of 20 when searching 's'*10000.

-- 
Hallvard


From jmfbahciv at aol.com  Sat Aug 28 06:30:03 2004
From: jmfbahciv at aol.com (jmfbahciv at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 04 10:30:03 GMT
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4dyXc.25792$Ot3.22106@twister.nyc.rr.com>
	<878yc0ucyl.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<cgnr8l$egb$1@nntp.webmaster.com>
	<20040827135423.154$1T@newsreader.com>
	<cgp2u4$5nk$1@nntp.webmaster.com>
Message-ID: <41307146$0$19703$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>

In article <cgp2u4$5nk$1 at nntp.webmaster.com>,
   "David Schwartz" <davids at webmaster.com> wrote:
>
><ctcgag at hotmail.com> wrote in message 
>news:20040827135423.154$1T at newsreader.com...
>
>> "David Schwartz" <davids at webmaster.com> wrote:
>
>>>     I don't follow you at all. I think you'll find the most useful,
>>> meaningful complaints about, say, a Ford Explorer from the people who
>>> drive one every day.
>
>> And if they continue to drive one everyday, perhaps you would conclude
>> that their complaints are insincere.
>
>    That's a load of crap.

Sigh!  Another one who has no appreciation of irony.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


From wweston at att.net  Mon Aug  9 12:00:17 2004
From: wweston at att.net (wes weston)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 16:00:17 GMT
Subject: berkeley db delete problem?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1394.1092062211.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1394.1092062211.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <lcNRc.190543$OB3.7261@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>

Oliver Peek wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Probably my fault, I'm opening a Berkeley DB
> file, iterating through and deleting keys, well
> making an attempt.  I get this error when I try
> to delete.
> 
> ---error
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "./db.py", line 41, in ?
>     db.delete()
> AttributeError: delete
> ---end error
> 
> Below is a code snippet:
> ---code
> #!/usr/bin/python
> 
> import bsddb
> 
> db = bsddb.btopen('./test.db', 'r')
> 
> rec = db.first()
> while rec:
> 	key, val = rec
> 	db.delete()
> 	rec = db.next()
> 
> db.close()
> ---end code
> 
> I have full code that opens and goes through and
> prints the key and value and opens another db
> file and inserts the key/data into that new db
> file, but I need to delete the data out of the
> master db file once it's been updated in the
> smaller ones.
> 
> I've also tried db.delete(key) with no luck,
> db.del(), db.del(key), db[key]='', and lots of
> other silly attempts, but nothing works.
> 
> Thanks,
> Oliver
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 

Oliver,
    Does clear() work?
wes



From mudd at vex.net  Fri Aug  6 12:49:36 2004
From: mudd at vex.net (mudd at vex.net)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 12:49:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: static python build?
In-Reply-To: <m38ycss7t2.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
References: <mailman.1273.1091799407.5135.python-list@python.org>  
	<m38ycss7t2.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <16109.12.151.80.14.1091810976.squirrel@webmail.vex.net>

Yes, thanks!, it was easy.  I just edited Modules/Setup as follows:

(1) Changed the commented *shared* line to the *static* line (see below).

(2) Uncommented the modules (math, time, array) that I wanted incorporated
into the static libpython.a library.

(3) Added lines for a couple other modules (strop & _random) that
previously weren't listed in the Setup file.

(4) Reran configure, make & make install.  It works!

Now I can run freeze.py and build a truly stand-alone executable including
the modules I mentioned.



Here's a section of Modules/Setup with my changes:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
# Uncommenting the following line tells makesetup that all following #
modules are to be built as shared libraries (see above for more
# detail; also note that *static* reverses this effect):

*static*

# Modules that should always be present (non UNIX dependent):

array arraymodule.c # array objects
#cmath cmathmodule.c # -lm # complex math library functions
math mathmodule.c # -lm # math library functions, e.g. sin()
#struct structmodule.c  # binary structure packing/unpacking
time timemodule.c # -lm # time operations and variables
#operator operator.c    # operator.add() and similar goodies
#_weakref _weakref.c    # basic weak reference support
#_testcapi _testcapimodule.c    # Python C API test module
strop stropmodule.c
_random _randommodule.c
--------------------------------------------------------------------------





> mudd at vex.net writes:
>
>> How do I build Python so that I get static libraries instead of dynamic
libraries (e.g. build/lib.solaris-2.8-sun4u-2.3/math.so)?
>
> Edit Modules/Setup.  The comments in the file should get you started.
>
> Cheers,
> mwh
>
> --
>   Monte Carlo sampling is no way to understand code.
>                                   -- Gordon McMillan, comp.lang.python
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>





From sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au  Wed Aug 11 03:56:38 2004
From: sholden at flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au (Sam Holden)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 07:56:38 GMT
Subject: rsa implementation question
References: <1092200894.4119a9beb1978@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
	<200408110852.57937.heikowu@ceosg.de>
	<mailman.1483.1092208637.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnchjk9m.qvv.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:17:15 +1000, Ajay Brar <abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au> wrote:
> thanks
> i am using RSa for signing documents and hence decrypting and then 
> encrypting to verify?
>  what i was rather trying to get at was what if the plaintext is too 
> large? if the plaintext is greater than (log2 n)/8, would you just throw 
> an error or would you break the plaintext in parts.
> the reason i am asking this is because i am timing the sign operations 
> using the pcrypto package. the time is constant relative to the size of 
> the plaintext (as you would expect) but at a certain point there is an 
> increase in the time taken to sign. this corresponds to a very large 
> plaintext.
> that is why i was wondering about the  block thing.

If there is a sudden increase then in time then chances are you just
hit a cache barrier - the size before the increase fit into a
cache of some form (be it L1, L2, main memory, disk, etc) but the size
after the increase doesn't and hence you hit L2, main memory, disk,
network, etc. 

Of course that's just a general observation I know nothing about the
workings of RSA (well I did implement it once, but that was *long* ago).

Whenever I've done signing with say GnuPG of largish items (such
as tarballs of code) I generate an MD5 sum of the item and then
sign that, giving something like:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

9272bee983085f56aa830ae909f9b8dc  pywily.tgz
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFA9j+tH/cbVr+0UoYRAn3OAJ0bMW3HbbXsuFGZ7H9DK5iMLpBDtwCgkSvB
Dj03m5eKTODAA6OKQc34HG4=
=52FO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

I've never actually cared enough to investigate whether that
significantly reduces the security. A smarter person would include the
filesize in the signed portion especially since you can append to tgz
files to generate the MD5 sum you want for your replacement
pywily.tgz...

[snip a full-quote... is that acceptable around these parts?]

-- 
Sam Holden


From grante at visi.com  Fri Aug  6 10:54:07 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 06 Aug 2004 14:54:07 GMT
Subject: 'Using is not None, may not always work'
References: <pan.2004.08.06.13.15.28.336325@dougfort.com>
Message-ID: <41139b8f$0$65604$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-06, Doug Fort <dougfort at dougfort.com> wrote:

> Since I installed 2.4a2 I've been getting a warning from
> pychecker: Using is not None, may not always work'.

Huh?! 

That implies that there are cases where "None is not None" will
evaluate as True.  I find that extremely hard to believe.

> I thought 'is not None' was the right thing to do.

It's certainly what I want to do if I want to know if a name is
bound to None or not.

> I've had problems with 'if not x:', because some objects
> return False in this context.

Exactly.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  I was in a HOT
                                  at               TUB! I was NORMAL! I was
                               visi.com            ITALIAN!! I enjoyed th'
                                                   EARTHQUAKE!


From paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it  Sun Aug 22 06:49:35 2004
From: paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it (Paolo Veronelli)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:49:35 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WE
	DONE?
In-Reply-To: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>
References: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <41287A3F.2080303@yahoo.it>



Some morphological images suggest me "through"  can be a keyword as it 
hide the verb filter which can be a little more general then others.
Anyway using a verb or a noun doesn't suggest the orthogonality of the 
piece,so please consider adverbs as clever candidates.

	Paolino




From arargh407NOSPAM at NOW.AT.arargh.com  Tue Aug 31 15:58:32 2004
From: arargh407NOSPAM at NOW.AT.arargh.com (arargh407NOSPAM at NOW.AT.arargh.com)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:58:32 -0500
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<slrncj8m5n.2pt.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
	<%T%Yc.29567$Es2.11957889@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<du7k6vfnvx9.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>
	<4134a207$0$65568$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <r1m9j0l3co4qq6h9tu94uh3hggqard0ks1@4ax.com>

On 31 Aug 2004 16:06:31 GMT, Craig A. Finseth <news at finseth.com>
wrote:

<snip>

>When they went to MS/DOS 2.0 and needed path separators, they found
>that "/" was already taken, so they used "\".  But there was a hidden
>way to tell the command interpreter that it could use "-" for options.

Which got removed quite some back.

>And in all systems starting with 2.0, the system calls have taken "/"
>and "\" interchangably.


-- 
Arargh407 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com
BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html

To reply by email, remove the garbage from the reply address.


From grante at visi.com  Thu Aug 26 21:43:40 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 01:43:40 GMT
Subject: A newbie in need....
References: <9c3edc58.0408261609.6640e400@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <412e91cc$0$62953$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>


> Hey everybody. I'm trying to make a program that requires a 2D
> field to run.

No clue what that means...

> Besides "curses" or "ncurses", is there a python module that
> will create a graph?

I never knew that [n]curses did graphing (and I've used it
quite a bit).

I use the Gnuplot module when I need to create a graph:

http://gnuplot-py.sourceforge.net/

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Did you find a
                                  at               DIGITAL WATCH in YOUR box
                               visi.com            of VELVEETA??


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 13 14:46:37 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:46:37 -0400
Subject: Rather than decorators, how about sections?
In-Reply-To: <411C12D4.7010400@yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1509.1092238688.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<411C12D4.7010400@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <cfj2a9$n0n$1@sea.gmane.org>

Steve wrote:
> Then, later, Paul Morrow wrote:
> 
>  > Fine, instead of Foo (the name of the class), use the > word klass.  
> It's a popular name for the first
>  > parameter of a class method.
> 
> "klass" isn't a word. It is a twee deliberate mispelling of a word.
> 
> It also runs the risk of causing confusion when code is spoken aloud (eg 
> in actual human-to-human communication using alternating high and low 
> pressure atmospheric waves to deliver packets of information, or in text 
> readers for the blind).
> 
> It is bad enough when coders (including myself) choose to deliberately 
> mispell words, but to make it required is unforgivable.
> 
> 

Ok I believe that's one vote against 'klass' as a reserved word :-)

Then let it be 'cls', which is also popular.  Or heck, to be flexible, 
let it be something you can specify (as an environment variable, 
compiler setting, etc.).  The important point is that we should resist 
changes to the language that require that the developer specify things 
that are already clearly inferred thru the form/structure of his/her 
code.  We don't have to specify (with curly braces or whatever) where 
code blocks start and end, because the form of our code tells us that. 
It seems natural (to me, and at least one other person) to let the form 
of a function's formal parameter list designate the type of function:

  - if the 1st parameter is named 'self', it's an instance method.
  - if the 1st parameter is 'cls' (or perhaps some suitable synonym), 
it's a class method.
  - for all other parameter arrangements, including no parameters, it's 
a static method.

Simple, clear, obvious, intuitive, and I'm sorry, but this is the least 
ugly of all the alternatives.  There is nothing beautiful about at 
signs, superflous code, clutter...



From luismg at gmx.net  Sun Aug  8 11:51:16 2004
From: luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss)
Date: 8 Aug 2004 08:51:16 -0700
Subject: How do you feel ?
References: <mailman.940.1087222870.6949.python-list@python.org>
	<mailman.1320.1091837963.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b840abf4.0408070158.643fbcd2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <278de0e.0408080751.72c98718@posting.google.com>

I'll try to explain in my poor English how I feel: WORRIED.
I don't know what's gong on with me, but since I started learning
programing with Python, I'm experiencing some strange behaviors that
are seriously affecting my social life, my work, and my view of the
world surrounding me...

It's addictive! I just can't stop thinking in terms of objects and
functions for the most silly things that come up in my head!
I used to have erotic dreams, but now, I just dream about a clean idle
window where I can start coding solutions for problems that I never
had...

It's getting worse and worse... I wonder if there is some kind of help
group, like Alcoholics Anonymous or something like that.
If there's someone with the same symptoms that wants to share its pain
with me, please write.
I'm shure we're more than one!


From heikowu at ceosg.de  Wed Aug 11 18:06:08 2004
From: heikowu at ceosg.de (Heiko Wundram)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 00:06:08 +0200
Subject: ANN: Cryptopia 1.0rc2
Message-ID: <200408120006.08610.heikowu@ceosg.de>

Overview
========

Cryptopia is a Python public key cryptography library which was designed 
around a new wrapper for the GMP library which supports a mutable integer 
type and exports the gmp_rand* functionality. Currently it offers ElGamal and 
RSA encryption/signing support and wrapped key classes for these two public 
key cryptography algorithms which ease safe pickling/unpickling of 
signatures/key data.

Cryptopia will be extended with key management support in the near future 
(signing keys with other keys and a GPG-like trust system).

Cryptopia does not implement symmetric cyphers (such as Blowfish, etc.), and 
probably never will (unless someone else volunteers to do the work ;)).

Dependencies
============

Cryptopia has been designed and tested on a *nix system, and as such I can 
only be sure that it will build on a *nix system (more specific, Linux and 
Solaris) with libgmp >= 4 installed. Otherwise, Cryptopia does not require 
any special dependencies, except a working C compiler and an installation of 
the Python runtime (distutils).

Building
========

python setup.py install

Download
========

To download Cryptopia and give it a shot go here:

http://www.heim-d.de/~heikowu/Crypto

License
=======

Cryptopia is licensed under the BSD license. Look into LICENSE (contained in 
the archive) for more info.

Feedback
========

Mail me directly. I'd be grateful if I could hear some feedback on 
building/using the library on other machines, esp. Windows.

Further comments
================

If anybody knows of a better name, feel free to contact me off list. ;)


From edreamleo at charter.net  Fri Aug  6 11:24:50 2004
From: edreamleo at charter.net (Edward K. Ream)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:24:50 -0500
Subject: Confused about pep 318
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com><mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org><d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com><Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu><mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org><10h4s026oapbhf1@corp.supernews.com><mailman.1223.1091728969.5135.python-list@python.org><10h4vhcfbsv6t30@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1241.1091758030.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10h78m471inrb16@corp.supernews.com>

> Look, you keep insinuating that there was some sort of evil plot to slip
> this into Python. I can assure you that this is NOT true, and I'm getting
> more than a little bit fed up with this argument.

I have never said any such thing, nor did I mean to insinuate any such
thing.  I have stated, loudly and often, that no proper public notice of
recent changes has been made.  I stand by that statement.

> "Actively mislead the public"? What the hell is that supposed to mean?

The fact is that somebody like me, with a big interest in '@', would
naturally conclude, on the basis on reading pep 318, that pep 318 has
nothing to do with '@'.   Moreover, one would conclude, on the basis on
reading pep 318, that the pep wasn't even close to a final design, much less
an implementation.

That is what I meant, and _all_ that I meant, by the phrase "actively
misleading".

Edward
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Edward K. Ream   email:  edreamleo at charter.net
Leo: Literate Editor with Outlines
Leo: http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------




From franbarlow at mail.com  Thu Aug 12 16:15:44 2004
From: franbarlow at mail.com (Fran)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 13:15:44 -0700
Subject: Help understanding Scheme's syntax, procedures and calls
References: <95f168b0.0408120120.31433dc7@posting.google.com>
	<cffit6$shd$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <95f168b0.0408121215.f89c842@posting.google.com>

eddie at holyrood.ed.ac.uk (Eddie Corns) wrote in message news:<cffit6$shd$1 at scotsman.ed.ac.uk>...
> franbarlow at mail.com (Fran) writes:
> 
> >I'm trying to understand a functional language code fragment so I can
> >explain its syntax and workings to my non English-speaking background
> >neighbour, who is doing her finals.
>  
> >What in heaven's name is this code fragment intending? (In English
> >prose if possible).
>  
> >It looks like a fragment from a language called "scheme"
>  
> >(define (this n)
> >	(if (=n 0)
> >	         0
> >	          (= n (this (- n 1)))))
> 
> As given this is almost certainly wrong.  The first problem is possibly just a
> transcription error in that (=n 0) should probably be (= n 0).  The second one
> is the that the last line doesn't make sense.  It looks like someone is
> confused about how if statements work.  Since this looks suspiciously like
> homework I'm only giving a hint.  If statements work like
> (if expr1
>     (expr to return if exp1 is true)
>     (expr to return if exp1 is false))
> Since each arm is an expression to evaluate it means you evaluate '=' as a
> function in the last line hence it returns a boolean, which is going to cause
> you grief after a short while.
> 
> >(define (f1 a b)
> >	(if >b a)
> >	       0
> >	       (+ b (f1 a (+ b 1)))))
> 
> This is wrong syntactically (hint: the first expression for the if statement)
> 
> The questions wouldn't make sense until you fixed the functions.
> 
> There is a comp.lang.scheme incidentally.
> 
> Eddie

Thanks for the help. It's not homework but from an old exam paper, but
the girl's English isn't absolutely fluent and I'm looking for a
simple way to explain the expressions and functions.

FRAN


From FBatista at uniFON.com.ar  Thu Aug 26 08:56:11 2004
From: FBatista at uniFON.com.ar (Batista, Facundo)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:56:11 -0300
Subject: Converting hex string to an integer
Message-ID: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C7865@escpl.tcp.com.ar>

[Rick Holbert]

#- > Given the character string "0x00A1B2C3" arriving at 
#- sys.argv[1] how do I
#- > convert that to an integer which I can do some math on?
#- 
#- i = eval(sys.argv[1])

This is *DANGEROUS*.

Never do that.

You're executing something that you get from the exterior without control!
Just think what happens if a pass to the program

	"import os;os.remove('/')"

.	Facundo
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From bjg at network-theory.co.uk  Fri Aug 27 05:04:13 2004
From: bjg at network-theory.co.uk (Brian Gough)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 10:04:13 +0100
Subject: print question - character representation
References: <mailman.2504.1093588872.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87vff59cky.fsf@network-theory.co.uk>

Ajay <abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au> writes:

> i am calculating a digest of some data (using hmac) and printing it to a
> cookie. the problem is the hash may contain special characters. when these
> are printed they get converted to \<number> representation.
> later when i receive the cookie i recalculate the hmac and do a comparison
> which returns false because of the conversion when writing to a cookie
> q - how do i stop the conversion from happening?

Use the hexdigest() method instead of digest() to avoid non-printable
characters.  See the hmac library documentation for details.

-- 
Brian Gough

Network Theory Ltd,
Publishing the Python Manuals --- http://www.network-theory.co.uk/python/


From A.M.Gimblett at swansea.ac.uk  Sun Aug 15 19:49:09 2004
From: A.M.Gimblett at swansea.ac.uk (Andy Gimblett)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 00:49:09 +0100
Subject: Indentation
In-Reply-To: <20040815212516.54857.qmail@web50010.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040815212516.54857.qmail@web50010.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040815234909.GA4756@cspcag.swan.ac.uk>

On Sun, Aug 15, 2004 at 02:25:15PM -0700, Bigbowser wrote:
>
> I've been using C++ for about a year now, and i decided to have a go
> at python but one thing i can't get used to is the indentation,
> especially as my functions become more and more nested ..

What, don't you nest your C++ code?

If your nests are getting too deep for comfort, you almost certainly
need to rethink your program structure.

-- 
Andy Gimblett
Computer Science Department
University of Wales Swansea
http://www.cs.swan.ac.uk/~csandy/


From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Wed Aug 25 11:07:43 2004
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:07:43 -0700
Subject: internal functions [Re: How do you feel ?]
In-Reply-To: <4117862E.3000907@charter.net>
References: <mailman.940.1087222870.6949.python-list@python.org>
	<mailman.1320.1091837963.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<MsudnbLNk8GFuYncRVn-rA@powergate.ca>
	<4117862E.3000907@charter.net>
Message-ID: <412cace1$1@nntp0.pdx.net>

Howard Stearns wrote:

> Sorry. When I said "define a named function in a top-level assignment", 
> I didn't just mean using a reference to a previously defined function 
> (i.e., it's name), I meant actually defining the function in the 
> assignment.
> 
> If you haven't done this sort of thing for years, I could see it being 
> hard to imagine why I would want to do this. After all, isn't the code 
> clearer if we define the function with a name ahead of time? And doesn't 
> the debugger work better with functions that have a name?
> 
> Well, I agree with this for what might be called middle-ground uses. 
> However, I do a lot of work with very simple cases and very complicated 
> ones.
> 
> In very simple cases, the code is more cluttered if I have to define the 
> function separately. Now, when the function is simple, Python let's me 
> define an anonymous function in the assignment. That's cool. But I also 
> have cases where the assignment is simple, but maybe the function isn't. 
> This came up for me when I tried to populate generic functions with 
> methods. (See generic functions thread. Though it looks like decorators 
> will soon help me out here...)
> 
> In very complex cases, I lament the shear distance between the function 
> definition and the one place in the code where it is referenced. (Again, 
> maybe decorators will help. Cool.)
> 
> 
> 
> Peter Hansen wrote:
> 
>> Howard Stearns wrote:
>>
>>> The one thing I've found annoying is that I haven't yet discovered 
>>> how to do whatever I want in lambda expressions. I have top-level 
>>> assignments where I'd like create a function to use as the the value 
>>> being assigned. I don't know how to define a named function in a 
>>> top-level assignment, and a lambda won't allow me to use 'try' and 
>>> other statements -- just expressions. Or am I looking at things wrong?
>>
>>
>>
>> What do you mean by "top-level assignment"?  If it's the same
>> meaning most Python programmers would give it, you just do this:
>>
>> def somefunc():
>>     pass
>>
>> topLevelName = somefunc
>>
>> There's your top-level assignment of a named function.  Probably
>> not what you meant, but can you clarify please?
>>
>> -Peter
> 
> 
Maybe this is what you mean:

def dodef(val):
     global globfunc
     def globfunc(other):
         return val, other

This works just fine.

-Scott David Daniels
Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org



From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Sun Aug  1 18:33:33 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 18:33:33 -0400
Subject: transforming a list into a string
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1022.1091319366.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <pan.2004.07.31.12.27.23.547000@hotmail.com>
	<roy-982174.13075831072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<cegqdu$2fb$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<mailman.1020.1091310303.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-FDE83B.19595731072004@reader1.panix.com>
	<mailman.1022.1091319366.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011814020.21160-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>

On Sat, 31 Jul 2004, Tim Peters wrote:

> Absolutely.  Note that Peter Otten previously posted a lovely O(N)
> solution in this thread, although it may be too clever for some
> tastes:
> 
> >>> from itertools import izip
> >>> items = ['1','2','7','8','12','13']
> >>> it = iter(items)
> >>> ",".join(["{%s,%s}" % i for i in izip(it, it)])
> '{1,2},{7,8},{12,13}'
> >>>

A bit too clever for mine, mostly because neither izip() nor zip() is 
guaranteed to process its arguments in a left-to-right order (although 
there's no reason for them not to).  I'd rather do this:

>>> from itertools import izip, islice
>>> items = ['1','2','7','8','12','13']
>>> it1 = islice(items,0,None,2)
>>> it2 = islice(items,1,None,2)
>>> ",".join(["{%s,%s}" % i for i in izip(it1, it2)])
'{1,2},{7,8},{12,13}'

Although it doesn't improve efficiency any (or have that 'slick' feel), it 
does prevent needless head-scratching :)

Curious, why isn't slicing of generators defined, using islice(), so "it1 
= iter(items)[0::2]" is valid?



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 15:50:57 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 05:50:57 +1000
Subject: just ignore Guido's "rejections" [Re: Alternative decorator
	syntax decision]
In-Reply-To: <2uadnbqpMuI1krvcRVn-sg@comcast.com>
References: <wRhVc.23879$Mt5.1140091@wagner.videotron.net>
	<mailman.2014.1092990953.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<nPlVc.23904$Mt5.1223926@wagner.videotron.net>
	<2uadnbqpMuI1krvcRVn-sg@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040820125063d0efde@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:50:18 -0500, Doug Holton <insert at spam.here> wrote:
> We can safely ignore Guido's "rejections" when deciding upon an
> alternative to agree upon.  Many people felt his rejections of C1 (a
> longtime community favorite), E1 and other alternatives were wrong.
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/048134.html

Uh, what? No, you _can't_ ignore Guido's rejections - if you really decide
that you must have a form he's objected to, you need a _damn_ strong
argument to back that up. A "longtime community favorite" doesn't mean
a thing - this is language design, not American Idol - that a lot of people
like it makes no difference.


From sholden at holdenweb.com  Tue Aug 31 07:12:40 2004
From: sholden at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 07:12:40 -0400
Subject: Generator expressions v/s list comprehensions
In-Reply-To: <1gjdvx3.tjc3nb1266bpkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
References: <mahesh-525B07.12195528082004@individual.net>
	<1gj8y77.6qshr41q531veN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<mahesh-7E265C.14093428082004@individual.net>
	<87llfywooz.fsf@sinken.local.csis.hku.hk>
	<mahesh-F76AD6.17094429082004@individual.net>
	<1gjbs1e.assxlxlud1m0N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-EA86FE.19582930082004@localhost>
	<1gjdvx3.tjc3nb1266bpkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Y4ZYc.65132$4o.36967@fed1read01>

Alex Martelli wrote:

> Michael J. Fromberger <Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU>
> wrote:
>    ...
> 
>>>Unfortunately, this wish is totally unrealistic -- obviously people do
>>>come up with cool ideas such as the iterator protocol, and generators,
>>>after the language has been around for a while.  
>>
>>All the cool features Python has adopted existed a long time before they
>>made their way into Python itself.
> 
> 
> Almost all, not all.  As I repeatedly explained, for example, generator
> comprehensions are not quite like anything in other languages (though
> you can surely find _similarities_, of course).
> 
Indeed, and the reason I like Python is that it has some aspects of Icon 
mixed in with perhaps the most easily-accessible object-oriented 
features of any of the programming languages I've learned.
> 
> 
>>Frankly, I think if the Lisp world had managed to build the same 
>>friendly and welcoming community Python seems to have, it would have 
>>taken over the world a quarter-century ago.
> 
> 
> I think most people's reaction to (==against) Lisp's parentheses and
> prefix syntax is more intense than that to Python's significant
> whitespace, which appears quite natural to most non-programmers even
> though many programmers inured to block delimiters do react strongly
> against it.  It's hard enough for Python to keep its community welcoming
> and friendly when you hear some clueless dweeb rant against indendation
> for the thousandth time, I think the Lisp community would have had to be
> made up of saints to be still friendly and welcoming after a _million_
> newcomers raised their whining against parentheses.
> 
... which it clearly isn't :-).

I do think the Python community is just a little out-of-the-ordinary, 
which is what keeps me (and, I suspect, you: great to see you on the 
wires again) coming back to c.l.py.

regards
  Steve


From Jeffrey at Fro.man  Sun Aug 22 11:05:40 2004
From: Jeffrey at Fro.man (Jeffrey Froman)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 08:05:40 -0700
Subject: serial iteration over several lists
References: <tgOVc.176766$gE.1703@pd7tw3no>
	<1b5c4527.0408212257.5c9c18b4@posting.google.com>
	<zd2Wc.184115$J06.164832@pd7tw2no>
Message-ID: <IdKdnQYF1KTYK7XcRVn-vw@cablespeedwa.com>

Martin DeMello wrote:

> Thanks - that looks like an excellent starting point. Has there been any
> work done on bidirectional iterators?

You could emulate one by maintaining a counter for the current index into
the imaginary flattened list, and iterating up to that index with each
prev() call and just past it with each next(). This of course requires that
you basically start from the beginning of your nested list each time
though, and I'm not sure if it would be more or less efficient than
indexing into a pre-flattened list in memory.

One more suggestion -- if you use a recursive generator for your iteration,
you can then use it with a list nested to arbitrary depth, something like:

#############################################

def deep_iter(nested_list):
    for x in nested_list:
        if isinstance(x, list):
            for n in deep_iter(x):
                yield n
        else:
            yield x

#############################################


Jeffrey



From jaydonnell at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 23 19:37:04 2004
From: jaydonnell at yahoo.com (Jay Donnell)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 16:37:04 -0700
Subject: urllib hangs
References: <a6fdfd6b.0408230902.2afc0e08@posting.google.com>
	<cgdaoh$1gn$01$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <a6fdfd6b.0408231537.c2c5af2@posting.google.com>

Thanks again.

I found this link
http://www.timo-tasi.org/python/timeoutsocket.py
which I'm assuming is the most recent version of timeoutsocket.py

It's very light on the explanatory side. Do I simply need drop this
file into the same directory as my script, import it, and set the
timeout???


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug  6 07:58:15 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 07:58:15 -0400
Subject: Confused about pep 318
In-Reply-To: <d11dcfba.0408051430.35950e05@posting.google.com>
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com>
	<d11dcfba.0408051430.35950e05@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <8umdnWrWJtTK747cRVn-uw@powergate.ca>

Steven Bethard wrote:
> Even the list-after-def syntax,
> which doesn't introduce semantics changes, isn't substantially clearer
> to me as a decorator than @ is -- why is a list before the : a list of
> decorators?  Seems almost as arbitrary as @.

The list-after-def is in that one sense as arbitrary as @, but at least
it feels more like Python.  It would be clear that the decorators
are applied in the order presented in the list, and since the list
clearly isn't be a normal list (coming before the def), anyone reading
it would know that it must have something to do with the function
definition.  (Anyway, as has been pointed out, the Java-based @ syntax
is not entirely arbitrary at this point, deriving from the Javadoc
comment syntax... I just think doc-generation system syntax embedded
inside code comments in another language is a poor place from which to
derive syntax for *Python*, which is why I said Python isn't exactly
leading in this area, but following, which is sad.)

The only negative mentioned for list-after-def that I've seen is that
with long argument lists it can be obscured.  I wasn't aware of the very
wide range of possible uses for decorators (not that I think many of
them are really that important), but it does seem likely that with much
more than staticmethod/classmethod around, something like @ will end
up being required because decorators will add so much to the language
that someone will be incapable of using Python without knowing all about
decorators.  (Viz. e.g. the "singleton" example, or "onexit")

If decorators will be used as much as it appears they will be, then the
"pie" syntax with the @ sign is perhaps best, simply because it is
so "in your face".  Barry named it well...

(I would like to see an alternative with "from __future__ import "
as well, but I'm not the one doing the work on this...)

-Peter


From jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl  Wed Aug 18 15:42:16 2004
From: jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl (Jarek Zgoda)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:42:16 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <mailman.1885.1092846489.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cg0beo$obh$4@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>

Robert Boyd <robhboyd at yahoo.com> pisze:

> 40. But I'm a late-comer to programming (my 'back in
> the day' can't compete with other 40 yo programmers).
> So maybe I could say I'm more like 25. ;)

Me too, I started programming rather late, when I was 26 and I realised
that I will be unable to make (good) living as philosophy graduate,
specialized in medieval ethics (st. Thomas, Duns et al.). This makes me
"young software developer" still, as I program for 7 years effectively.
;)

-- 
Jarek Zgoda
http://jpa.berlios.de/


From max at alcyone.com  Tue Aug 10 06:13:41 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 03:13:41 -0700
Subject: Python equivalent to a C trick
References: <1d7b6d0d.0408092255.1177908e@posting.google.com>
	<cfa5vu$jg8$01$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <41189FD5.7516D933@alcyone.com>

Thomas Kr?ger wrote:

> Logic_Test and True_Result or False_Result
> 
> Example:
> print (num_eggs > 1) and 'eggs" or "egg"

Be very careful that the "True_Result" in your formulation actually is
itself a Python true value, or this won't work:

	print 'egg' + (numEggs == 1 and '' or 's')

will not work as expected.

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ Melancholy men, of all others, are the most witty.
    -- Aristotle


From http  Thu Aug 26 21:32:34 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 18:32:34 -0700
Subject: key storage
References: <mailman.2484.1093569146.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <7xd61dfjrh.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Ajay <abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au> writes:
> my question is how should these be stored on the server? encryption is
> the best solution, but if i encrypt them with another key, the question is
> where does this key get stored?

It's a hard problem.  Really serious systems use crypto coprocessors
with hardware-encapsulated keys.  A cheesy substitute is to store the
keys in a running process on the same server, that your cgi connects
to through an AF_UNIX socket when it wants to encrypt something.  I
have a Python module that does stuff like that.  You enter a
passphrase when you start the process, and then it keeps running.  Of
course you have to re-enter the passphrase on reboot or something like
that.

Slightly out-of-date docs are at:

  http://www.nightsong.com/phr/crypto/crypto.txt

I never released this thing but I guess I could do so pretty soon.  I
will not make any promises about its security.


From birded at verizon.net  Mon Aug 23 12:34:51 2004
From: birded at verizon.net (Sherrod Faulks)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:34:51 GMT
Subject: Jython/Python and javax.swing.*
References: <2004082212534416807%birded@verizonnet>
	<3b2846c4.0408230303.5250ca5@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <2004082312333016807%birded@verizonnet>

John,
Sorry I didn't reply earlier, but I found out how to do it in the 
Jython Doc. You must do:

from pawt import swing

Thanks for helping, though!

On 2004-08-23 07:03:12 -0400, crichton314 at btinternet.com (John Crichton) said:

> Sherrod Faulks <birded at verizon.net> wrote in message 
> news:<2004082212534416807%birded at verizonnet>...
>> I'm using Jython and in the python script I do:
>> 
>> from javax import swing
>> result = javax.swing.JOptionPane.showInputDialog(wC, cmd[8:],"Prompt 
>> from " + client.serverName, JOptionPane.PLAIN_MESSAGE)
>> 
>> wC is a JFrame, cmd is a String and client.serverName is a String.
>> It won't show the JOptionPane, why?
> 
> Hi Sherrod,
> 
> Having had a look at my last post after a nights sleep I'm not sure it
> was very clear...
> 
> If you change your script to the following it should work:
> 
> import javax.swing as swing
> result = swing.JOptionPane.showInputDialog(wC, cmd[8:],"Promptfrom " +
> client.serverName, swing.JOptionPane.PLAIN_MESSAGE)
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> John




From http  Sat Aug 21 23:20:51 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 20:20:51 -0700
Subject: Help with Calculater (first program)
References: <8ff6f02e.0408211839.4057ff5@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <7xsmafhn8s.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

dave at inthegarage.net (aToaster) writes:
> Hey guys, I'm just getting the hang of Python and Tkinter and I could
> use some help.  I wrote most of the gui for my calculator program,
> well I haven't gotten around to putting in the

Hey, that was my first tkinter experiment too.

http://www.nightsong.com/phr/python/calc.py


From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug 30 14:02:25 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 18:02:25 GMT
Subject: Size of a remote URL
References: <cgvovp$1r1@odak26.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <41336bb1$0$8079$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-30, Justin <justin__devine at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Ok.  I believe you are correct.  I have observed the two MODES of the
> download dialog box.  HOWEVER there are still some instances in which
> Internet Explorer knows the size of something that my code cannot
> determine.  So now I have this conclusion:  The instances where I
> cannot get the size but a browser can must exist because I am not
> asking the server the right question.

I guess you should trace traffic on the connection and see how
IE is getting the length.  http://www.ethereal.com/

> Perhaps "Content-Length" is not included in the default
> headers, but the server will provide this header if it is
> asked too?

Not that I'm aware of.

BTW, what protocols are you talking about?  Just HTTP?

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  BARBARA STANWYCK
                                  at               makes me nervous!!
                               visi.com            


From steve at hotmail.com  Sun Aug  1 21:32:57 2004
From: steve at hotmail.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 11:32:57 +1000
Subject: get attribute from a parent class
Message-ID: <410d9a13$1@clarion.carno.net.au>

Hi,

I have a nested class declaration such as:

class A:
	def __init__(self):
		self.var = "A's variable"
	# end def

	class B:
		def __init__(self):
			self.var2 = "B's variable"
		# end def
	# end class B
# end class A


What I want to do is to be able to get class A's 'var' variable from the 
nested class B. For example, I want to be able to do something like:
print "I can see you %s" % a.var


but... I don't want to make 'var' a class variable. I want it to be an 
instance variable but still be viewable by the inner class B. Is this 
possible? Any suggestions? Thanks

Steve



From gandalf at geochemsource.com  Wed Aug  4 13:37:36 2004
From: gandalf at geochemsource.com (Gandalf)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 19:37:36 +0200
Subject: How to force a single number to be a tuple
In-Reply-To: <cer5pq$is$02$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <mailman.1138.1091636758.5135.python-list@python.org>	<roy-6EC9F2.12271204082004@reader1.panix.com>	<mailman.1142.1091637381.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cer5pq$is$02$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <41111EE0.6060701@geochemsource.com>



Peter Otten wrote:

>  File "<stdin>", line 1
>    () == (,)
>           ^
>SyntaxError: invalid syntax
>
I said this:

"Try to add one comma for each element - that will do the stuff."

How many elements do you want?
For zero elements, you should add zero commas. ;-)

>  
>
>>>>(1) == (1,)
>>>>        
>>>>
>False
>
Of course. The first one is not a tuple.

>  
>
>>>>(1, 2) == (1, 2,)
>>>>        
>>>>
>True
>
Yes, because you can omit the last comma if there is at least one element.

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From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug 13 10:44:56 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 10:44:56 -0400
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
In-Reply-To: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Uf6dnb0hhtx1ToHcRVn-vg@powergate.ca>

beliavsky at aol.com wrote:

> One of the most commmon reasons programmers cite for not trying Python
> is that indentation determines the program flow -- they think its
> weird. I think programmers who actually try Python adapt quickly and
> do not find the indentation rules to be a problem.

I think you're right on both counts.  For me, the adaptation
period was roughly ten seconds...

> I wonder if there is a way to remove this initial barrier. 

Why?  Is there really any evidence that the Python community
is missing a large number of really excellent programmers merely
because they are resistant to the idea of syntactically significant
indentation?  Yes, it's one of the most common reasons programmers
cite as you note above, but in absolute terms I doubt it's that
significant.

> I'm not saying that Python's use of indentation is bad, just that it
> stops many programmers from trying it.

I really question whether we are looking for such programmers.
They sound rather close minded and perhaps even lazy...

-Peter


From webworldL at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  6 22:23:01 2004
From: webworldL at yahoo.com (webworldL at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 02:23:01 -0000
Subject: processing XHTML1.1 documents with xml.sax
Message-ID: <cf1ee5+ev43@eGroups.com>

Has anybody had any luck processing XHTML1.1 documents with xml.sax?
Whenever I try it, python loads the W3C DTD from the top, then crashes
saying that there's an error in the external DTD.
All I need to do is rip through a bunch of XHTML documents and extract
some data, does anybody know a quick way to do this without sax making
outgoing network connections and fussing with DTDs?

BTW, the code to reproduce the error if anybody cares:
below is a document 'hello.html' produced by the W3C's Amaya:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1"?>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN"
      "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
<head>
  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=iso-8859-1" />
  <title>Hello  World</title>
  <meta name="generator" content="amaya 8.5, see
http://www.w3.org/Amaya/" />
</head>

<body>
<p>hello world!</p>
</body>
</html>

and the script:

import xml.sax.handler
xml.sax.parse("hello.html",
    xml.sax.handler.ContentHandler()
              )

the error:

SAXParseException:
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/DTD/xhtml-framework-1.mod:89:0:
error in processing external entity reference

will be thrown.




From yong at net.tamu.edu  Wed Aug 18 11:48:24 2004
From: yong at net.tamu.edu (Yong Wang)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 10:48:24 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: readlines()
Message-ID: <20040818154825.4068B1589B@net.tamu.edu>

Hi,
   I use readlines() to read one data file. Python automatically parses the read contents
into a list of lines. When I used list[0] to print out the 1st line, it is ok. When I use
the list index 2 to print out the 2nd line , there is an error mesage. I only need one line of
input data file in the middle of the file. For example, I have data file like: 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Timestamp: Sat Aug  7 11:14:57 AM
    Adapter Address: 00:60:08:2A:C9:5A
         IP Address: 165.91.10.244
       Directory ID: 0675392c736079cfd81a55028df3cb43
        Domain Name: bdanwood.dsl.tamu.edu
    DHCP/NIM Action: lease renewed
           Comments: 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Timestamp: Sat Aug  7 11:15:56 PM
    Adapter Address: 00:60:08:2A:C9:5A
         IP Address: 165.91.10.244
      Directory ID: 0675392c736079cfd81a55028df3cb43
        Domain Name: bdanwood.dsl.tamu.edu
    DHCP/NIM Action: lease renewed
           Comments: 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have some codes:
    .......
for line in db1:
   (ip, mac) = string.split(line)
    print 'ip is ', ip
    run = 'dhcpacct --ip=%s  > tt1'
    os.system(run)
    getdata = open('tt1', 'r')
    data    = getdata.readlines()
    print 'data[0] is', data[0]
    print 'data[3] is', data[3]
    getdata.close()
 
When run the codes, I got:
data[0] is ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

data[3] is
Traceback (innermost last):
  File "com1", line 64, in ?
    print 'data[3] is', data[3]
IndexError: list index out of range

    How can I fix it ?

    Thanks,




From peter at semantico.com  Thu Aug 12 07:41:44 2004
From: peter at semantico.com (Peter Hickman)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:41:44 +0100
Subject: Help understanding Scheme's syntax, procedures and calls
In-Reply-To: <95f168b0.0408120120.31433dc7@posting.google.com>
References: <95f168b0.0408120120.31433dc7@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <411b577a$0$20523$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk>

Unfortunately it looks more like 'broken scheme'.

Fran wrote:
> (define (this n)
> 	(if (=n 0)
> 	         0
> 	          (= n (this (- n 1)))))

That looks fine, however:

> (define (f1 a b)
> 	(if >b a)
> 	       0
> 	       (+ b (f1 a (+ b 1)))))

Has 6 (s and 7 )s. I expect that the seconds line should read
	(if (> b a)

> (define (that n)
> (f1 n1)

Again there is an imbalance in the ( and ), I think the second line should read 
(f1 n 1)), note the space between then 'n' and the '1'.

Is this someone's homework by any chance?


From timrice at nospam-gmail.com  Sat Aug 28 02:53:32 2004
From: timrice at nospam-gmail.com (Tim Rice)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 02:53:32 -0400
Subject: wxTheClipboard problem, IDLE vs PythonWin
Message-ID: <bp-dnYrA8b_ttq3cRVn-hA@adelphia.com>

I have a need to write data to the Windows clipboard from a Python script.
I found a nice, simple solution @
http://wiki.wxpython.org/index.cgi/ClipBoard.  The problem is, I can only
get it to work from within the PythonWin and SPE IDE's.  I get errors if I
try to run the exact same code from the command line or via IDLE's
interactive shell.  I can't figure it out.  Any ideas?  Possibly something
missing from my PYTHONPATH environment variable?

Any help is appreciated.  Thanks,
Tim



>From PythonWin (works fine):
>>> from wxPython.wx import *
>>> wxTheClipboard.Open()
True
>>> wxTheClipboard.Clear()
>>> wxTheClipboard.SetData(wxTextDataObject("Test 1"))
True
>>> wxTheClipboard.Close()
>>> ## ctrl+v = Test 1


>From IDLE (doesn't work):
>>> from wxPython.wx import *
>>> wxTheClipboard.Open()
True
>>> wxTheClipboard.SetData(wxTextDataObject("Test 2"))
False
>>> ## ctrl+v = Test 1
>>> wxTheClipboard.Clear()
>>> ## ctrl+v = Test 1
>>> wxTheClipboard.Close()


>From Python (command-line) (doesn't work, more verbose errors):
>>> from wxPython.wx import *
>>> wxTheClipboard.Open()
True
>>> wxTheClipboard.SetData(wxTextDataObject("Test 3"))
02:17:48: Error: Failed to put data on the clipboard (error -2147221008:
coIniti
alize has not been called.)
False
>>> wxTheClipboard.Clear()
02:17:56: Debug: ..\..\src\msw\clipbrd.cpp(554): 'OleSetClipboard(NULL)'
failed
with error 0x00000002 (the system cannot find the file specified.).






From nid_oizo at yahoo.com_removethe_  Fri Aug 20 03:37:12 2004
From: nid_oizo at yahoo.com_removethe_ (Nicolas Fleury)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 03:37:12 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
Message-ID: <wRhVc.23879$Mt5.1140091@wagner.videotron.net>

Hi all,

The part of the Python community that doesn't like @decorators needs to 
unite behind an alternative syntax to propose to Guido.  I suggest we 
use this thread to try to do it.  If you agree with @decorators, then I 
suggest you stop reading this message;)

Many syntaxes have been put on http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators.

I suggest to fight the current @descriptors on these two points:
- Less Readable.  The @ character adds a new character with a magical 
sense.  It doesn't read in english as the rest of Python.
- Not Pythonic.  It's a line without a block (like try/finally) that 
affects a following line of code.  It breaks interactive shells.

I suggest that the alternative syntax is both more readable and more 
pythonic.  Many syntaxes have been ruled out by Guido, but he seems to 
be open to a new keyword accessible with a "from __future__ import". 
Since a new keyword would make the syntax more readable (and easier to 
find doc about), so I suggest to discuss these two alternatives, not 
necessarily with these keywords:

Proposal 1:

decorate: staticmethod
def foo(a, b):
     ...

decorate:
     accepts(int,int)
     returns(float)
def bar(low, high):
     ...

other possible keywords: predef, from, as, with

This proposal has basically the advantages of @decorators with a more 
Pythonic approach.  The main drawback is that the decorate block doesn't 
contain anything like normal statements, as with @decorators. 
Implementation already exists.


Proposal 2:

def foo(a,b):
     using staticmethod
     ...

def bar(low, high):
     using accepts(int, int)
     using returns(float)

other possible keywords: decorate, transform, with, postdef, as

The pool on Wiki suggest that most people would prefer an inside def 
syntax.  It would place decorators at the same place as docstrings, 
which is very Pythonic, since it's consistent with the rest of the 
language.  The main concern is that it places information that can be 
important to callers far from the def.  I guess the answer would be that 
it's not that far from the def and that sometimes the parameters names 
would give strong hints about the decorators.  For example, even if it's 
not forced by the language, a method with a first parameter not named 
self would be strong hint to check the first line of the body to see if 
it's a static method, etc.  I suggest to force descriptors to be before 
the docstring to make them as closer as possible to the def and ease 
finding them.  (Another answer could be that scanning down from the def 
is not that more bad than scanning up from the def).
Is there any implementation existing?

My questions would be: which of these proposals do you prefer to current 
@decorators.  Both?  None?

What keywords would you prefer?  Do you see any that I have not listed?

Do you think there's an alternative that I should have listed, even 
considering what have been ruled out by Guido?

Regards,

Nicolas


From davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu  Sun Aug 22 18:55:23 2004
From: davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu (David Pokorny)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 15:55:23 -0700
Subject: 2 GB files
References: <9418be08.0408221427.182a4d30@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <prSdnX0h1KUgubTcRVn-gg@lmi.net>


"Elbert Lev" <elbertlev at hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9418be08.0408221427.182a4d30 at posting.google.com...
> From postings to this group and other resources I understood that the
> only way to make Python programs to work correctly with files lager
> then 2 GB is building Python interpreter with some "magic spell"
> defines. For me this is ABSOLUTELY unacceptable (Not the building, but

Elbert: you might get a positive response if you rephrased your post.

"Our corporation needs functionality ___. We would be happy to pay a
contract consultant $n000 to come up with a solution that will work with a
future trajectory of Python releases."

Or you could pray to the OSS gods.

David




From theller at python.net  Fri Aug 27 11:18:37 2004
From: theller at python.net (Thomas Heller)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:18:37 +0200
Subject: allowing braces around suites
References: <1r3c28g6o9.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no>
	<cgn73r$scr$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<mailman.2515.1093608707.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1rk6vkeo5d.fsf@rovereto.ifi.uio.no> <cgnbc4$7ul$1@ork.noris.net>
	<mailman.2523.1093613536.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<sma8y7cg.fsf@python.net> <cgnh9l$b20$1@ork.noris.net>
Message-ID: <llg0y5gy.fsf@python.net>

> [...]
>>>Or C-M-\ to re-indent the region "correctly" with respect to its
>>>context.  This works far more reliably the using TAB to re-indent
>>>single lines.
>> How do you enter that on a german keyboard?
>
> CTRL-ALT-ALTGR-?

Not for me - it only beeps.  Well, maybe because I'm using XEmacs on win2k.

Do you mean the function py-indent-region? Apparently this is bound to
C-c tab or C-c C-i.

Thomas


From chrisccc_3k at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 10 10:18:13 2004
From: chrisccc_3k at yahoo.com (Chris Connett)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:18:13 -0400
Subject: Best pattern/idiom
In-Reply-To: <4edc17eb.0408092039.10958e11@posting.google.com>
References: <4117c3d8$1@buckaroo.cs.rit.edu>
	<4edc17eb.0408092039.10958e11@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <4118d928$1@buckaroo.cs.rit.edu>

Michele Simionato wrote:
> Chris Connett <chrisccc_3k at yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<4117c3d8$1 at buckaroo.cs.rit.edu>...
> 
>>I was wondering if there were a well known pattern/idiom for breaking a 
>>sequence into a list of lists, each n elements long, e.g.
>>
>>[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11] -> [[0,1,2,3],[4,5,6,7],[8,9,10,11]]
>>
>>This comes up reasonably often in my work, and every time I re-think 
>>about it, and come up with
>>[ lis[n:n+4] for n in range( 0, len( lis ), 4 ) ]
>>which seems very kludgy to me, since it uses a range and len, 2 mentions 
>>of the list identifier and 2 literal 4's (which is the size I want to 
>>break into this time).
>>
>>Is there a better way?
> 
> 
> From a post of mine of some time ago ...
> 
> 
>>>>import itertools
>>>>def chop(it, n):
> 
> ...     tup = (iter(it),)*n
> ...     return itertools.izip(*tup)
> ...
> 
>>>>list(chop([1,2,3,4,5,6],3)) [(1, 2, 3), (4, 5, 6)]
>>>>list(chop([1,2,3,4,5,6],2)) [(1, 2), (3, 4), (5, 6)]
>>>>list(chop([1,2,3,4,5,6],1))
> 
> [(1,), (2,), (3,), (4,), (5,), (6,)]
> 
>   Michele Simionato

That's slick! :)  Though, objectively, it might be less maintainable, 
since if I didn't know what it was doing, it'd take me a minute to 
figure it out.  I'll definitely keep that idea in my toolbox though!



From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Fri Aug 13 16:06:40 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:06:40 -0400
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<Uf6dnb0hhtx1ToHcRVn-vg@powergate.ca>
	<_d6Tc.23589$Jp6.3458@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <10hq7qq3mgje578@news.supernews.com>

"CptPicard" <jpmorichon at earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:_d6Tc.23589$Jp6.3458 at newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>

>
> I noticed too that, amazingly, a lot of programmers know about Perl but
not
> Python.

Perl has about four times the market penetration of Python. A whole
lot of people regard it as "the language" for system administration.

As far as percieved barriers to adoption, though, I think "there
should be one obvious way to do it" turns a lot of people off
when it's compared to Perl's "there's more than one way to do it."
Again, though, it just takes some familiarization.

John Roth






From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 30 04:07:40 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:07:40 +0200
Subject: Alex Martelli: Welcome back!
References: <mailman.2588.1093826338.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1gjbrxx.14it2qjhn44ynN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy) <tdelaney at avaya.com> wrote:

> Alex Martelli wrote:
> 
> > This time around I'm gonna try -- I'm as busy as ever (the 2nd Edition
> > of the Python Cookbook is at least as intense a project as the first
> > was...), but if I can steel myself to use my killfile 100 times more
> > than in the past, and still try to respond on some threads which might
> > be interesting or useful.  We'll see if it works!
> 
> I've actually found that spambayes works fairly well as a killfile -
> enough that I don't bother top maintain any other killfile. It usually
> takes about 3 posts added as spam for someone to start disappearing ...

Heh, cool idea.  Hmmm, I wonder how I could integrate spambayes into my
favourite newsreader (these days, that's MacSoup)...


Alex


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Mon Aug 30 18:07:46 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 00:07:46 +0200
Subject: "Content-Length" header
In-Reply-To: <ch07ui$edo@odbk17.prod.google.com>
References: <ch07ui$edo@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408310007040.1162-100000@kleigh.nl>

Justin schreef:

> I found the answer.  After about 3 hours of agonizing over it it turned
> out to be CASE
> some webservers are CASE SENSITVE about their urls and some are not.

There are case-insensitive webservers? Never knew that.



-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html



From bryanjugglercryptographer at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  3 14:27:22 2004
From: bryanjugglercryptographer at yahoo.com (Bryan Olson)
Date: 3 Aug 2004 11:27:22 -0700
Subject: Timing Difference: insert vs. append & reverse
References: <35b736b9.0408020330.53b24ed3@posting.google.com>
	<Xns953983065EEC6duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <1a517b5.0408031027.60554dfb@posting.google.com>

Duncan Booth wrote:

> A list is implemented by an array of pointers to the objects it contains.
> 
> Every time you call 'insert(0, indx)', all of the pointers already in the 
> list have to be moved up once position before the new one can be inserted 
> at the beginning.
> 
> When you call 'append(indx)' the pointers only have to be copied if there 
> isn't enough space in the currently allocated block for the new element. If 
> there is space then there is no need to copy the existing elements, just 
> put the new element on the end and update the length field. Whenever a new 
> block does have to be allocated that particular append will be no faster 
> than an insert, but some extra space will be allocated just in case you do 
> wish to extend the list further.
> 
> If you expected insert to be faster, perhaps you thought that Python used a 
> linked-list implementation. It doesn't do this, because in practice (for 
> most applications) a [array] based implementation gives better performance.

True, but an array implementation can easily support amortized 
constant-time insert/delete at *either* end (without breaking 
constant-time indexing).  The same trick of keeping extra space 
at the tail end can work at the head; it requires keeping one 
additional offset to show where the occupied cells start.


-- 
--Bryan


From spam_depository2004 at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 31 00:33:57 2004
From: spam_depository2004 at yahoo.com (Johnny)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 21:33:57 -0700
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
Message-ID: <2a56f6a3.0408302033.622bf4e2@posting.google.com>

Pascal Bourguignon <spam at mouse-potato.com> wrote in message news:<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_ at thalassa.informatimago.com>...

> 
> $ telnet xahlee.org 80;
> Trying 208.186.130.4...
> Connected to xahlee.org.
> Escape character is '^]'.
> GET / HTTP/1.1
> 
> HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request
> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:35:52 GMT
> Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Xah probably couldn't find any LispM based servers. Can you blame him?


From curzio.basso at unibas.ch  Wed Aug 11 06:30:34 2004
From: curzio.basso at unibas.ch (Curzio Basso)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 12:30:34 +0200
Subject: how to dispatch objects depending on their class
In-Reply-To: <cfcqah$kvq$03$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <4118dd4a$1@maser.urz.unibas.ch>
	<cfap3b$3ag$06$1@news.t-online.com> <4119d60b@maser.urz.unibas.ch>
	<cfcqah$kvq$03$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <4119f54f$1@maser.urz.unibas.ch>

Peter Otten wrote:

> I'd say the choice of the dispatch mechanism - dictionary lookup vs Duncan
> Booth's name-mangling - is independent of the question whether the visitor
> pattern applies. Duncan's setup would then become something like
> 
> class VisitorMixin:
>     def accept(self, visitor):
>         visitor.dispatch[self.__class__](self)
> 
> class Visitor:
>     def __init__(self):
>         self.dispatch = {A: self.visit_A, B: self.visit_B}
>     def visit_A(self, a):
>         pass
>     def visit_B(self, b):
>         pass
> 

Yes, the dispatching would be not necessary if no mixin was used. Which 
is not desirable, however, because it would add a dependency between the 
subclass and the visitor.

thanks again, I got a lot of useful advices.

cheers, curzio


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug 20 15:36:22 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:36:22 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <s9zisbdzndj.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E14@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
	<mailman.2063.1093020568.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<s9z4qmx21ca.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>
	<mailman.2067.1093022774.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<s9zisbdzndj.fsf@salmakis.intevation.de>
Message-ID: <kt2dnePcXdWgz7vcRVn-uw@powergate.ca>

Bernhard Herzog wrote:

> Steven Bethard <steven.bethard at gmail.com> writes:
>>I would advise against this.  GvR has said from the beginning that he
>>doesn't want to see a vote
> 
> Er, you're already having a vote :-)

Er, but Guido doesn't have to see it.  :-)

>>-- he wants to see convincing proposals and a more or less 
>>unified community support. 
> 
> Yes.  But what if the majority of the community favors pies of J2?

Then it's a certainty that we'll hear at high volume from
that community when the time comes.  Now is not their time.
(Or, to put it another way, they are quite capable of holding
their own vote... this is c.l.p, home of the daily syntax
vote!)

There is a subset of the community which disfavours @pie
(many intensely).  Let them hold their vote to figure out
which, if any, alternative they can widely support.  If
there is wide support for an alternative, it will be a
very simple matter at that point, *if* a vote is required,
to decide which of the two (@pie or the dark horse candidate)
is preferred.

I really hope that at that point, however, instead of us having
a vote, Guido steps in and says either of these, and then
the majority will shut up:

  1. "Okay, the community against @pie has spoken, and their
     choice is X, but for these reasons I reject it and @pie
     will stay..."

or

  2. "Okay, the community against @pie has spoken, and
     their choice is X, and after careful consideration I
     find this choice has great merit and will reject @pie
     in favour of it."

-Peter


From kdahlhaus at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 31 08:29:38 2004
From: kdahlhaus at yahoo.com (Kevin Dahlhausen)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 05:29:38 -0700
Subject: Web Application - User Management - RBAC
References: <mailman.2422.1093527057.5135.python-list@python.org>	<412dfc53@news.highway1.com.au>
	<mailman.2473.1093554038.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <283adf56.0408310429.7ae36a91@posting.google.com>

Webware for Python has a component calld 'UserKit.' It  may not be
fully production ready as it stands, but could serve as a model.


From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 12 13:30:16 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:30:16 -0400
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
In-Reply-To: <411ba1db$1@nntp.zianet.com>
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
	<60dfb6f6.0408111846.615ee9eb@posting.google.com>
	<3YWdnYxLf--ObofcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<cffbbu$amv$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk> <411ba1db$1@nntp.zianet.com>
Message-ID: <EvadnaCm3bK0NIbcRVn-iQ@powergate.ca>

Mark Bottjer wrote:
> The contention was that indentation is used to indicate the effective 
> scope in other contexts: e.g., def changes how the statements *indented 
> under it* are handled (they are packed into a code object instead of 
> executed immediately), but doesn't change how the next statement at the 
> same indentation level is handled (the statement result may change, due 
> to coupling via common data, but the statement itself is handled exactly 
> as it would be were the previous statement not present). 

 > With this
> syntax, though, the decorate block changes how the def statement is 
> handled, even though they are at the same indentation level.

Changes it how?  The definition of this whole decorator idea has been
that it is equivalent to applying the decorator functions *after* the
def has completed, as in "func = decorator(func)".  This does not
in any way changed how the def statement itself is handled.

> Put another way: applying what I know about how indentation is used 
> elsewhere in Python to this syntax, I would expect the effect of the 
> decorate statement to be limited to the statements indented under it. I 
> would not expect it to affect the next statement at the same level 
> except by the normal coupling of namespace (program state).

You don't think of "if" and "else" as being related?  When the
expression that is evaluated in the if is true, the "else"
is skipped over...  I know: that's just program state as you said.
But so is the effect of the decorator, whether it's spelled "@"
or "decorate:"...

Anyway, whatever works for @pie syntax should work for decorate:
syntax, I would think.  @pie is even less like the rest of Python
(especially now with this weird "swallow newlines" hack to work
around the possibility that people might try to put multiple
@decorators on the same line).

> Of course, this argument also applies to the prefix @ syntax, but at 
> least with that we have a funny character cluing us in to the special 
> behavior.

While here we have a nice explicit keyword "decorate:" which one
can easily find with a search in the documentation, as opposed to
trying to look up a symbol "@".  I don't buy the argument that a
funny symbol is somehow going to help people who don't already know
what decorators are, any more than an explicit "decorate:" line
would.  Either one says "this is different, go look up what it
means" to a newcomer.

-Peter


From brian at sweetapp.com  Fri Aug 13 05:54:00 2004
From: brian at sweetapp.com (Brian Quinlan)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:54:00 +0200
Subject: Pyhton Interpreter Startup time
In-Reply-To: <411C7262.1000803@cenix-bioscience.com>
References: <mailman.1556.1092304607.5135.python-list@python.org>	<30260531.0408120829.27a536bc@posting.google.com>	<EvadnaKm3bI9N4bcRVn-iQ@powergate.ca>
	<411C7262.1000803@cenix-bioscience.com>
Message-ID: <411C8FB8.20901@sweetapp.com>

Neil Benn wrote:

>    As I said the first load takes 5 seconds and the consecutive loads 
> take fractions of a second - my assumption is that Windows is caching 
> something which is not suitable for my needs as it is not predictable 
> enough.  

Neil, are you using Norton Antivirus with autoprotect enabled? I've 
seen that cause problems in the past because NAV scans every file as it 
is opened and Python loads a lot of file on startup.

Cheers,
Brian


From FBatista at uniFON.com.ar  Tue Aug 31 13:41:45 2004
From: FBatista at uniFON.com.ar (Batista, Facundo)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:41:45 -0300
Subject: about presicion
Message-ID: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C78B8@escpl.tcp.com.ar>

[mensanator at aol.com]

#- What I meant was the OP can't compare Decimal and gmpy unless he has
#- a version of gmpy that runs in 2.4. Or has a version of Decimal that
#- runs in 2.3.

Decimal is designed to work in Py2.3 and it will be maintained that way.

.	Facundo


From fakeaddress at nowhere.org  Mon Aug  9 22:27:20 2004
From: fakeaddress at nowhere.org (Bryan Olson)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 02:27:20 GMT
Subject: Paul Graham on Python hackers
In-Reply-To: <3064b51d.0408090448.31806af5@posting.google.com>
References: <cf1p1f$ke0@odak26.prod.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.07.10.51.16.393303@teliko.net>
	<slrncha2q0.1sd3.kirk@eyegor.jobsluder.net>
	<3064b51d.0408090448.31806af5@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <coWRc.5083$Wk2.301@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>

beliavsky at aol.com wrote:
 > Python, unlike Java, does not force OOP upon you -- it can be treated
 > as an imperative language.

That's kind of fuzzy terminology.  Both Python and Java are
imperative object-oriented languages.

 > I think this is a plus especially when
 > first learning the language or writing small programs. A Hello World
 > program is just

There I agree.

 > Python to me is a multi-paradigm language (imperative, OO, functional,
 > generic), like C++ but interpreted and with dynamic typing.

Functional?  Not so much.  In viable functional languages
expressions/statement are evaluated primarily for their return
values and not their side-effects.  (In purely functional
languages, there are no side-effects).

I don't think it's much like C++ either.  In C++, things like
identifiers, modules, and classes don't exist at run-time.


-- 
--Bryan


From Sibylle.Koczian at Bibliothek.Uni-Augsburg.de  Wed Aug  4 05:26:52 2004
From: Sibylle.Koczian at Bibliothek.Uni-Augsburg.de (Sibylle Koczian)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 11:26:52 +0200
Subject: MySQLdb 'server not initialized'
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1110.1091585607.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1110.1091585607.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2nbof3Fv54hfU1@uni-berlin.de>

Daniel Baggott schrieb:

> Hi,
> 
> I'm seeking assistance in troubleshooting connecting to MySQL (4.0.20)
> using Python (2.3.4) and MySQLdb (1.0.0).  When I attempt to make a
> connection, I get the following exception:
>    _mysql_exceptions.InternalError: (-1, 'server not initialized')
> 
> The database is definitely running as I can connect to it using the
> mysql client.  Also, when I attempt to connect to MySQL from within
> Python, I don't see any messages in the MySQL logs (ie the .log and .err
> files in /usr/local/mysql/data/).
> 
If the server isn't running you'd get another exception anyway:

OperationalError: (2003, "Can't connect to MySQL server on 'localhost' 
(10061)")

I tried on Windows, but I can't think there's a difference at this point.

What happens if you try the same thing with user "root" and his password 
- just for diagnostic purposes?

> Does anyone have any advice or suggestions as to how to figure out
> what's going wrong?  Also, if there's a better forum for posting this
> question, please point me in the right direction.
> 

There is a help forum for MySQLdb on SourceForge:

http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=70461

But it doesn't look very active to me, at least at the moment. So I 
wouldn't call it better, just another possibility.

Regards,
Koczian


From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Mon Aug 23 14:00:11 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:00:11 +0200
Subject: esoteric question about dict keys
In-Reply-To: <CFeJBls/K/5W089yn@the-wire.com>
References: <mailman.2023.1092997148.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<CFeJBls/K/5W089yn@the-wire.com>
Message-ID: <2oupg5FehvjoU1@uni-berlin.de>

Mel Wilson wrote:
> In article <mailman.2023.1092997148.5135.python-list at python.org>,
> Alexis Roda <alexis.roda at urv.es> wrote:
>>Now the question. In "normal" dicts its not possible to use dictionaries
>>(nor other kinds of mutable objects) as keys, if I undersand correctly
>>this is a technical requirement. If I write my own dictionary-like
>>object, on wich the mutability of the keys is not a technical issue, is
>>considered blasphemous the use of dicts as keys? For example, querying
>>an SQL table can be partially modelled as a dictionary access:
> 
>    As I understand it, you can use any object as a key if
> you give it a __hash__ method and an __eq__ or __cmp__
> method.

You can, after all, use dicts as dict keys if you create your own
subclass of dict:

class hashdict(dict):
   def __hash__(self):
      return id(self)

x = hashdict()
testdic = {x : "test"}

But in order to retrieve the "test" value, you would need to index the
testdic with exactly the same instance of the hashdict. And that's why
dictionaries are unhashable.

Reinhold

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From hemagician at gmail.com  Sat Aug 21 18:11:19 2004
From: hemagician at gmail.com (Daniel Arbuckle)
Date: 21 Aug 2004 15:11:19 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<yGHVc.38447$Tr.1936227@news20.bellglobal.com>
Message-ID: <e76eaff7.0408211411.3ba7b231@posting.google.com>

My votes (J1, J2, C1)


From siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk  Thu Aug 12 12:07:09 2004
From: siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk (Sion Arrowsmith)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 17:07:09 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [OT] Keyboard layout, was Re: PEP318
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cffdba$ko0$04$1@news.t-online.com>
	<Y+l*oRTrq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
	<roy-439B02.10321912082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <L-C*RvUrq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

Roy Smith  <roy at panix.com> wrote:
>Sion Arrowsmith <siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> As someone who's just started using a Mac for the first time(*),
>> I'd like to add that it's not always plain-sailing on an English
>> keyboard.
>What's wrong with Mac keyboards?

No @, hence tangential relevance to PEP318 (and a point against
pies, before or after the def). Unless you can remember it's on
option-3.

-- 
\S -- siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk -- http://www.chaos.org.uk/~sion/
  ___  |  "Frankly I have no feelings towards penguins one way or the other"
  \X/  |    -- Arthur C. Clarke
   her nu become? se bera eadward ofdun hl?ddre heafdes b?ce bump bump bump


From uche at ogbuji.net  Mon Aug  9 10:35:12 2004
From: uche at ogbuji.net (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 07:35:12 -0700
Subject: Module for converting XML to Python object(s)?
References: <otdPc.224$df.27@bignews5.bellsouth.net>
	<mailman.1033.1091401922.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <d116fbae.0408090635.59ff94a5@posting.google.com>

Fran?ois Pinard <pinard at iro.umontreal.ca> wrote in message news:<mailman.1033.1091401922.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> [Robert Oschler]
> > Has anybody seen a Python module that will take an XML document (not a
> > colossal one), and convert it to a Python nested class object?
> 
> You might want to check this announcement:
> 
>         From: "Fredrik Lundh" <fredrik at pythonware.com>
>         Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:07:43 +0200
>         Subject: ANN: ElementTree 1.2 final (june 18, 2004)
>         To: python-announce-list at python.org
>         Newsgroups: comp.lang.python.announce
> 
>         The Element type is a simple but flexible container object,
>         designed to store hierarchical data structures, such as
>         simplified XML infosets, in memory.  The ElementTree package
>         provides a Python implementation of this type, plus code to
>         serialize element trees to and from XML files.

ElementTree rocks, but is not really what I understood the OP's
request to be.  It seems he wants specialized classes matching the XML
vocabulary, e.g.

print html.head.title

You can't really do this with ElementTree.  This is the preserve of a
different class of XML libraries, called data bindings.  I discussed
data bindings I know of in my previous response to the OP.  Oluyede
reminded me of XMLObject.  Also, both Eric van der Vlist and Guido van
Rossum himself have done recent work in data bindings for XML/Python. 
Neither's work is packaged for public release yet, though.


-- 
Uche Ogbuji                                    Fourthought, Inc.
http://uche.ogbuji.net    http://4Suite.org    http://fourthought.com
Perspective on XML: Steady steps spell success with Google -
http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp?id=9663
Use XML namespaces with care -
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-namcar.html
Managing XML libraries - http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp?id=9160
Commentary on "Objects. Encapsulation. XML?" -
http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp?id=9090
Harold's Effective XML -
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-think25.html
A survey of XML standards -
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-stand4/


From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 21 13:57:13 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:57:13 -0500
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <ibednRDmoMqBWrvcRVn-oA@powergate.ca>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl>	<ZFoVc.360$MR2.1503@news1.mts.net>
	<mailman.2058.1093016284.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<kd6dnZ99Oaj8vbvcRVn-jw@powergate.ca>
	<i0vVc.412$MR2.2033@news1.mts.net>
	<ibednRDmoMqBWrvcRVn-oA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <i1MVc.983$MR2.3626@news1.mts.net>

Peter Hansen wrote:

> or mistake... if they did, Americans would properly use "fewer"
> in all those cases where they now use "less" incorrectly.
> 
> -Peter

I lived in the US for a chunk of time (Berkeley).  Let's not get into 
how the Americans have butchered the english language.


From 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de  Sat Aug  7 02:32:21 2004
From: 510046470588-0001 at t-online.de (510046470588-0001 at t-online.de)
Date: 07 Aug 2004 08:32:21 +0200
Subject: Paul Graham on Python hackers
References: <cf1p1f$ke0@odak26.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <87k6wb4fwq.fsf@debian.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>

ellisjb at my-deja.com writes:

> Yeah, but Graham goes on to lump perl in with python,

it doesn't make much of a difference. They are both infinitely much
better than J*** .

> so he clearly
> doesn't know what he's talking about. :)
> 


> (In all seriousness I think python and java have a lot more in common
> than python and perl.)
> 

no, that's not the case, as Java lacks something akin to perl's eval
and python's exec.
In addition, Java lacks asynchronous system calls and is thus unable
to implement the curses library, unlike perl and python.
on top of all, perl and python allow to write empty programs,
whereas in that crap of Java, it's already hard to write a program
that does nothing. Already  hello world in Java is a monster
that turns away decent hackers. 
And the Java standard is less opensource friendly than perl, python,
scheme, ruby, elastiC, tcl, lua ... 
and all the other decent languages.

Klaus Schilling


From ramen at lackingtalent.com  Wed Aug 18 12:53:11 2004
From: ramen at lackingtalent.com (Dave Benjamin)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:53:11 -0000
Subject: Jython and super_reload?
Message-ID: <slrnci73a9.nj3.ramen@lackingtalent.com>

There have been several discussions here about how to write a reload()
function that works for classes as well as modules:

http://groups.google.com/groups?sourceid=mozclient&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&q=super_reload

I have been trying to come up with a solution that works for Jython, and so
far nothing has worked. I was wondering if anyone has attempted or succeeded
in writing such a function for Jython.

Thanks,
Dave

-- 
 .:[ dave benjamin: ramen/[sp00] -:- spoomusic.com -:- ramenfest.com ]:.
        "talking about music is like dancing about architecture."


From __peter__ at web.de  Fri Aug  6 02:18:30 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 08:18:30 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no>
	<ceu67e$ioa$00$1@news.t-online.com>
	<HBF.20040805npas@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <cev7rn$me7$01$1@news.t-online.com>

Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:

> Peter Otten wrote:
>>Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
>> 
>>> Now that the '-*- coding: <charset> -*-' feature has arrived,
>>> I'd like to see an addition:
>>> 
>>>   # -*- str7bit:True -*-
>>> 
>>>   After the source file has been converted to Unicode, cause a parse
>>>   error if a non-u'' string contains a non-7bit source character.
>> 
>> Could
>> 
>> # -*- coding: ascii -*-
>> 
>> be sufficient?
> 
> No.  It would be used together with coding: <non-ascii charset>.  The
> point is to ensure that all non-ASCII strings are u'' strings instead
> of plain strings.

OK.
 
>> Why would you reintroduce ambiguity with your s-prefixed
>> strings?
> 
> For programs that work with non-Unicode output devices or files and
> know which character set they use.  Which is quite a lot of programs.

I'd say a lot of programs work with non-unicode, but many don't know what
they are doing - i. e. you cannot move them into an environment with a
different encoding (if you do they won't notice).
 
>> The long-term goal would be unicode throughout, IMHO.
> 
> Whose long-term goal for what?  For things like Internet communication,
> fine.  But there are lot of less 'global' applications where other
> character encodings make more sense.

Here we disagree. Showing the right image for a character should be the job
of the OS and should safely work cross-platform. Why shouldn't I be able to
store a file with a greek or chinese name? I wasn't able to quote Martin's
surname correctly for the Python-URL. That's a mess that should be cleaned
up once per OS rather than once per user. I don't see how that can happen
without unicode (only). Even NASA blunders when they have to deal with
meters and inches.
 
> In any case, a language's both short-term and long-term goals should be
> to support current programming, not programming like it 'should be done'
> some day in the future.

Well, Python's integers already work like they 'should be done'. I'm no
expert, but I think Java is closer to the 'real thing' concerning strings.
Perl 6 is going for unicode, if only to overcome the limititations of their
operator set (they want the yen symbol as a zipping operator because it
looks like a zipper :-). 
You have to make compromises and I think an external checker would be the
way to go in your case. If I were to add a switch to Python's string
handling it would be "all-unicode". But it may well be that I would curse
it after the first real-world use...

Peter



From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 17 09:47:28 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:47:28 -0400
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
In-Reply-To: <slrnci404l.k5.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1637.1092428855.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<30260531.0408131853.18ec2446@posting.google.com>
	<LIqdnd7Jz9Mspr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<412040f8$0$8087$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<AuWdnUL93se81L3cRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
	<slrnci3rlk.k5.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<qMSdnVT-d9UiYbzcRVn-oA@powergate.ca>
	<slrnci404l.k5.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
Message-ID: <lPCdnULk-pbskb_cRVn-pg@powergate.ca>

Antoon Pardon wrote:

> Op 2004-08-17, Peter Hansen schreef <peter at engcorp.com>:
>>Some people have, in spite
>>of your claims that it's not possible, managed to produce
>>useful and interesting answers, and for that I thank them.
> 
> I would be most surprised if I made such a claim.
> 
> Please provide me with a reference so that I can apologize
> if I actually did this.

No, the apology is mine.  You picked up on the argument
Grant and Paramjit were making, but I wasn't paying
attention to the ever-changing debater in this discussion
and misremembered all the posts as being yours.

-Peter


From imbosol at aerojockey.com  Thu Aug 12 00:08:26 2004
From: imbosol at aerojockey.com (Carl Banks)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 21:08:26 -0700
Subject: Python script to generate static site?
References: <hl5lh0pb3u4m47f2bsatc9vigrv7pc7v07@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <60dfb6f6.0408112008.60f35daf@posting.google.com>

Fred <fred at acme.com> wrote in message news:<hl5lh0pb3u4m47f2bsatc9vigrv7pc7v07 at 4ax.com>...
> Hi,
> 
> I'm sure there are a bunch of them, but googling just returned
> full-fledged CMS that require a DBMS and generate dynamic pages.
> 
> I'd just like a script that would 
> 1. look in a directory for articles in raw HTML,
> 2. generate a cooked output for each page (ie. add header and footer,
> CSS link in HEAD, etc.),
> 3. regenerate the homepage with "Last modified" bit following each
> article's title,
> 4. ready to be uploaded by FTP to a web server that only handles
> static web pages.
> 
> Considering Python's wealth of libraries, it's most likely only a
> couple hours' work, but since I'm pretty much a Python newbie...


If I may humbly plug my own project, you might try HRL:

http://www.aerojockey.com/software/hrl

In fact, the example on the home page pretty much does exactly what
you ask. It's very versatile for generating static pages, I'd say. 
Maybe too versatile.  If you'd like to be able to use the power of
Python to automate various tasks that come along, this might be what
you want.  If you just want 1, 2, 3, and 4 for all eternity, you might
prefer something less deep.

Also, it supports Unicode, if you need that.


-- 
CARL BANKS


From fumanchu at amor.org  Wed Aug  4 19:45:40 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 16:45:40 -0700
Subject: Finding all time periods for a given interval within a
	daterange
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022DDE@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

I wrote:
> Look at my 'recur' module and see if it fits your requirements:
> 
> http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/index.html

Tim Churches:
> How is the above code licensed?

Me:
> Anything on that page is public domain. Use it as you see fit.

Tim:
> Would you be so kind as it include a note in the actual code 
> to that effect? Copyright needs to be explicitly waived in most
> countries these days (unlike previously when copyright needed
> to be explicitly claimed).

Sure thing. Give me a couple of days.


FuManChu


From domcio_ at poczta.onet.pl  Mon Aug 16 04:16:20 2004
From: domcio_ at poczta.onet.pl (Leszek)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:16:20 +0200
Subject: COM (DispatchEx) problem
Message-ID: <cfpqlu$nb6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>

Hi everybody !

I'm starting my script with:

ie = win32com.client.DispatchEx("InternetExplorer.Application")
ie.Visible = 1
ie.Navigate("http://www.chip.pl")

while ie.Busy == True:
    win32api.Sleep(1000)

doc = ie.document

then I make "submit" and new page opens.
but

print doc.body.innerHtml

gives the same Html code than before "submit". What is going on ? How to see
new document ?

Thanks for any help.

Leszek




From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 12 23:08:29 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:08:29 -0400
Subject: Flython?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121608180.11006-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121608180.11006-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <CISdnRTssu4zrYHcRVn-ow@powergate.ca>

Christopher T King wrote:

> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Peter Hansen wrote:
> 
> 
>>In the vein of Jython, I wonder what it would take to build
>>a Flython?  (Lousy name, I know.)  That would take Python
>>source, presumably a subset since some things couldn't be supported,
>>and compile it into ActionScript bytecode (aka the bytecode compiled
>>from ECMAScript source for the Macromedia Flash player environment).
> 
> I don't know much about ActionScript bytecode, but I think a general
> Python -> ECMAScript translator wouldn't be too hard (presuming a Python
> subset is acceptable).  ECMAScript variables are untyped, so that should
> ease translation some.  Sounds like my weekend project!

Well, it's not the source code that I care about, it's the
object code (as in, the Flash bytecode).  The only ECMAScript
to Flash bytecode compilers of which I'm aware are
commercial and expensive, and come with big useless (to me)
GUI/animation/freaky special effect generation systems...

There are advantages in Python direct to Flash bytecode with
a simple command line compiler (particularly if one uses
test-driven development...).

This may be where I have to dig into an area that's outside
my expertise, namely the compiler.py module, parse trees,
and code generation...

-Peter


From fred at acme.com  Wed Aug 11 18:03:23 2004
From: fred at acme.com (Fred)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 00:03:23 +0200
Subject: Python script to generate static site?
Message-ID: <hl5lh0pb3u4m47f2bsatc9vigrv7pc7v07@4ax.com>

Hi,

I'm sure there are a bunch of them, but googling just returned
full-fledged CMS that require a DBMS and generate dynamic pages.

I'd just like a script that would 
1. look in a directory for articles in raw HTML,
2. generate a cooked output for each page (ie. add header and footer,
CSS link in HEAD, etc.),
3. regenerate the homepage with "Last modified" bit following each
article's title,
4. ready to be uploaded by FTP to a web server that only handles
static web pages.

Considering Python's wealth of libraries, it's most likely only a
couple hours' work, but since I'm pretty much a Python newbie...

Thank you
Fred.


From tpassin at comcast.net  Sun Aug 15 16:57:48 2004
From: tpassin at comcast.net (Thomas B. Passin)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 16:57:48 -0400
Subject: [XML-SIG] python and XML resources
In-Reply-To: <1092484513.411dfda120873@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
References: <1092484513.411dfda120873@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <411FCE4C.6060903@comcast.net>

Ajay wrote:

> 
> does anyone know of good online resources on XML processing in Python. I am
> using the PyXML package and have read the introductory XML HOWTO.
> what i am looking for is a more detailed and comprehensive coverage of the
> entire package - all the classes and functions etc

It's not on line, but Lars Marius Garshol's book "Definitive Xml 
Application Development" is mostly in Python and is very good.  Of 
course, it has lagged behind the latest developments in pyxml, pyana, 
etc., but I recommend it.

Cheers,

Tom P

-- 
Thomas B. Passin
Explorer's Guide to the Semantic Web (Manning Books)
http://www.manning.com/catalog/view.php?book=passin


From fumanchu at amor.org  Wed Aug 25 14:16:23 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:16:23 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2 - In Favor
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E72@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Francesco Bochicchio wrote:
> Assuming that simple python users qualify, you can add   my 
> name in favor
> of your proposal.

Of course you qualify! Thanks for your signature.

> If people are using this thread for signing themselves, maybe
> it would be better to create subthreads for pro/against/indifferent,
> just to make counting more simple.

I don't think that's necessary. There are enough people replying in
private that it wouldn't be complete. Also, if someone votes against and
doesn't notice they're in the "for" thread, their vote could become
ambiguous. I'd prefer clear statements for each post.


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Mon Aug 30 18:23:00 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 00:23:00 +0200
Subject: "Content-Length" header
References: <ch07ui$edo@odbk17.prod.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408310007040.1162-100000@kleigh.nl>
Message-ID: <ch09bt$38o$06$1@news.t-online.com>

Peter Kleiweg wrote:

> Justin schreef:
> 
>> I found the answer.  After about 3 hours of agonizing over it it turned
>> out to be CASE
>> some webservers are CASE SENSITVE about their urls and some are not.
> 
> There are case-insensitive webservers? Never knew that.

Rumors are that they even created *whole OSes* in that fashion. I wonder if
that _might_ be the cause for the webservers beeing so nasty.... 

-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From rnd at onego.ru  Mon Aug 16 16:00:03 2004
From: rnd at onego.ru (Roman Suzi)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 00:00:03 +0400 (MSD)
Subject: Best programming language
In-Reply-To: <5155aad2.0408161008.40c57262@posting.google.com>
References: <mailman.1718.1092639914.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<5155aad2.0408161008.40c57262@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408162357340.10635@rnd.onego.ru>

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, Konstantin Veretennicov wrote:

>Roman Suzi <rnd at onego.ru> wrote in message news:<mailman.1718.1092639914.5135.python-list at python.org>...
>> ;-)
>>
>> Just type into google
>> "best programming language"
>> and press (I am lucky)
>>
>>
>> Sincerely yours, Roman Suzi
>
>Just type in "programming language" and look at #1
>;-)

WOW!


Sincerely yours, Roman Suzi
-- 
rnd at onego.ru =\= My AI powered by GNU/Linux RedHat 7.3


From lconrad at laymusic.org  Sat Aug  7 16:28:24 2004
From: lconrad at laymusic.org (Laura Conrad)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 16:28:24 -0400
Subject: Killing children
References: <87smb0w4ln.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
	<mailman.1297.1091814690.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<87d624vxt2.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
	<j9s8h0ppj5vdllif186m06iaeqrnm9o8lc@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <87pt62vgk7.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>


Further adventures in infanticide.  I've been spawning and killing
programs all day, in the course of testing and fixing other aspects of
the program.  

All of a sudden, although I haven't changed the spawn line at all,
only things farther along in the program, I get:

C:\cygwin\bin\python2.3.exe (5684): *** unable to remap C:\cygwin\bin\cygcrypto-0.9.7.dll to same address as parent(0x6B0000) != 0x6C0000
      4 [main] python 5468 sync_with_child: child 5684(0x710) died before initialization with status code 0x1
    681 [main] python 5468 sync_with_child: *** child state child loading dlls
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "testspawn.py", line 8, in ?
    p = os.spawnl(os.P_NOWAIT, "/usr/bin/python", "python", 'run_rad7.py', "/dev/ttyS8", "120", "0", "00560")
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/os.py", line 566, in spawnl
    return spawnv(mode, file, args)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/os.py", line 521, in spawnv
    return _spawnvef(mode, file, args, None, execv)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/os.py", line 489, in _spawnvef
    pid = fork()
OSError: [Errno 11] Resource temporarily unavailable

This is the same kind of error that caused me to stop using
pexpect.spawn.  Does anyone know what's happening?  rebooting does not
cause it to go away.  The program I attempting to spawn from my python
program runs fine from the command line.  


-- 
Laura (mailto:lconrad at laymusic.org , http://www.laymusic.org/ )
(617) 661-8097	fax: (501) 641-5011
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139




From beliavsky at aol.com  Sun Aug 22 17:52:41 2004
From: beliavsky at aol.com (beliavsky at aol.com)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 14:52:41 -0700
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<roy-37CEFC.10153622082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <3064b51d.0408221352.ca7b57e@posting.google.com>

Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote in message news:<roy-37CEFC.10153622082004 at reader1.panix.com>...
> In article <cg94oc$2e6$1 at panix3.panix.com>, aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) 
> wrote:
> 
> > In article <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129 at posting.google.com>,
> > Neuruss <luismg at gmx.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >It seems there are quite a few projects aimed to improve Python's
> > >speed and, therefore, eliminate its main limitation for mainstream
> > >acceptance.
> > 
> > What makes you think speed is Python's primary limitation for mainstream
> > acceptance?
> 
> Speed is the primary limitation for mainstream acceptance of high level 
> (aka scripting) languages in general.  I can think of no reason why so 
> much software is still written in languages like C++ other than 
> performance (or at least, the perception of it).

There are reasons other than performance why one might prefer C++ or
other languages to Python -- not to say that they are objectively
"better".

(1) Many people think that the static type checking of languages like
C++ is a virtue, and some of them avoid Python because it is dynamic.
I don't want to start another debate but just want to note that
programmers are divided on this.

(2) The Python approach to OOP is very different -- looser -- than
that of C++ and has less support for data hiding. For example, one can
add an attribute to an object anywhere, which seems like a dubious
freedom to me.

(3) The beginning of a Python function only tells you about the
arguments, not the result. I prefer not to scan the entire body of a
function to see what it returns. Compiled languages like C++, Fortran,
and Pascal put the argument and result info in one place.

(4) Python does not look like C++. Some programmers think that any
alternative to C++ must still look like it. I think this argument is
weak, but Java's cosmetic similarity to C++ probably has boosted its
popularity.


From hari at fake.com  Fri Aug 13 12:21:35 2004
From: hari at fake.com (Hari Pulapaka)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:21:35 GMT
Subject: Difference between readlines() and iterating on a file object?
In-Reply-To: <Xns9544A24CD2AE0duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
References: <411cd102$1@mail.hmgcc.gov.uk>
	<Xns9544A24CD2AE0duncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <jU5Tc.63$SR4.25@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>

Duncan Booth wrote:

> "Richard" <richardd at hmgcc.gov.uk> wrote in
> news:411cd102$1 at mail.hmgcc.gov.uk: 
> 
> 
>>Hi,
>>
>>Can anyone tell me what the difference is between
>>
>>for line in file.readlines( ):
> 
> 
> reads the entire file into memory and splits it up into a list of lines 
> then iterates over the list. If you break from the loop, tough you've lost 
> any lines that were read but you didn't handle.
> 
> 
>>and
>>
>>for line in file:
> 
> 
> reads part of the file and strips off one line at a time. Never creates a 
> list. Reads more only when it runs out of the block it read. If you break 
> from the loop you can do another 'for line in file' and get the remaining 
> lines.

However, one thing that bit me was that you cant use f.tell() to get the 
current position of the line in the file. If you use "for line in 
fileobject:" and then you first line is fileobject.tell() that will 
return the end of file position and not the position of the next line. 
Might be a bit counter-intuitive.

I am learning to be a better python programmer and I have written this 
small program to parse Mail box files and display emails which match the 
specified text. Any comments on this will appreciated. I know I can read 
the whole file using readlines(), not sure if that is good idea?


Batigol:~/pgrep hari$ cat pgrep.py
import sys

hits = {}
lines = {}
count = 0
emailstart = "From -"

def build(f, str):

     global count, hits, lines

     f.seek(0)
     start_email = 0
     end_email = 0
     pointers = []
     str_matched = []
     found = 0

     line = f.readline()

     while line != '':
         if line.find(emailstart) != -1:
             # Start of Mail
             start_email = f.tell()
             if found == 1:
                 #print "From - inside found "
                 pointers.append(end_email)
                 found = 0
                 hits[count] = pointers
                 lines[count] = str_matched
                 count += 1
                 pointers = []
                 str_matched = []

         if line.find(str) != -1:
             # Found string
             #print "Found string: "
             #print "count", count
             if len(pointers) == 0:
                 pointers.append(start_email)
             found = 1
             str_matched.append(line)
             #lines[count] = line

         end_email = f.tell()
         line = f.readline()

def display(f):
     global count, hits, lines

     if count == 0:
         sys.stdout.write("Not found! \n")
         sys.stdout.flush()
         sys.exit(0)

     sys.stdout.write("#: Line Contents\n")
     for i in range(count):
         for j in range(len(lines[i])):
             choice = "%s: %s" %(i, lines[i][j])
             sys.stdout.write(choice)

     sys.stdout.write("Enter # of email to display: ")
     sys.stdout.flush()
     input = sys.stdin.readline()
     try:
         i = int(input.strip())
         f.seek(hits[i][0])
         while f.tell() != hits[i][1]:
             sys.stdout.write(f.readline())
     except:
         sys.stderr.write("Invalid choice\n")

     sys.stdout.flush()

if __name__ == "__main__":
     try:
         f = file(sys.argv[1], "r")
     except:
         sys.stdout.write("Error opening file\n")
         sys.exit(1)

     build(f, sys.argv[2])
     response = 'n'
     #print response
     while response == 'n':
         display(f)
         sys.stdout.write("Do you want to quit, y or n? ")
         sys.stdout.flush()
         response = sys.stdin.readline().strip()

     f.close()
     sys.exit(0)



Thanks,

Hari





From jason at mail.smileproject.com  Tue Aug 17 07:56:32 2004
From: jason at mail.smileproject.com (Jason Van Anden)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 07:56:32 -0400
Subject: Python and ASP Problem
Message-ID: <200408170756.AA583991350@mail.smileproject.com>

I cannot get ASP pages to run Python scripting.

I have ActiveState's most recent install on my Windows2000 server, running IIS.  I have checked that Python works.  I have double-checked the troubleshooting pages (run pyscript, pytest, checked for duplicated dlls, etc...), and searched Google for answers, but I cannot get ASP to work with Python scripts.

When I try to run an ASP page with a script, I get a HTTP Error 500.

Guidance appreciated,
Jason 


From david_brownell at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 23 13:13:30 2004
From: david_brownell at hotmail.com (David Brownell)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 10:13:30 -0700
Subject: py2exe, PyXML, and utf-16-be Error
Message-ID: <67e04df1.0408230913.3c12f1a8@posting.google.com>

I am using the XMLValidateParser in the PyXML library
(xml.sax.sax2exts.XMLValParserFactory.make_parser).  When I run my
script, everything works as expected.

When I "compile" my script using py2exe, I get the following error
when running the exe:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  <my modules removed for brevity>
  File "xml\sax\sax2exts.pyc", line 13, in make_parser
  File "xml\sax\saxexts.pyc", line 64, in make_parser
  File "xml\sax\saxexts.pyc", line 42, in _create_parser
  File "xml\sax\drivers2\drv_xmlproc.pyc", line 9, in ?
  File "xml\parsers\xmlproc\xmlproc.pyc", line 14, in ?
  File "xml\parsers\xmlproc\dtdparser.pyc", line 12, in ?
  File "xml\parsers\xmlproc\xmlutils.pyc", line 43, in ?
LookupError: unknown encoding: utf-16-be

While using py2exe, I specify "--packages xml".  Is there something
else I need to specify to enable utf-16-be encoding?

Thanks in advance for your help!
David Brownell


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Fri Aug  6 08:43:29 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 08:43:29 -0400
Subject: @decorators
References: <d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <10h6v76mm313cce@news.supernews.com>


"daishi" <google at daishi.fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa at posting.google.com...
> For what it's worth:
>
> As far as I know, the proposed @decorator syntax will be the first
> time that two logical lines of python with the same indentation will
> not be independent of one another.

Examples:

try - except - finally
if - elif - else
while - else

John Roth




From t-meyer at ihug.co.nz  Mon Aug  2 22:16:56 2004
From: t-meyer at ihug.co.nz (Tony Meyer)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 14:16:56 +1200
Subject: Call for Grant Proposals
In-Reply-To: <ECBA357DDED63B4995F5C1F5CBE5B1E8650BB6@its-xchg4.massey.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <ECBA357DDED63B4995F5C1F5CBE5B1E86C3694@its-xchg4.massey.ac.nz>

[Maurice Ling]
> Yes, exactly. You are correct to assume that it is logical to require 
> deliverables from this grant to be open sourced, however, 
> this cannot be inferred from the call for grant proposal's wordings
> "The Python Software Foundation is seeking grant proposals for projects 
> related to the further development of Python, Python-related technology,
> and educational resources."

As I said before (and note that I'm not part of the PSF, or on the grants
committee, or anything else like that), a call for proposals will never
include every possible detail.  If you want specifics, then you ask specific
questions afterwards (and wait for a response from people who are probably
pretty busy, no matter which grant committee this might be).  In all
likelihood, if someone put together a proposal that clearly would further
develop Python in some fantastic way, was closed source, and the closed
source nature didn't effect the development in any way, then the grants
committee would be as likely to approve it as any other grant.

> Although I may somewhat seems to want close 
> source development, my actual intentions is to refer to the grant 
> committee that by the actual wordings of the call allows for closed 
> source development. Unless there is a specific statement by the PSF 
> grant committee, I can foresee that companies may use this grant for 
> close sourced development.

A grant committee can decide whether or not to give a grant to a particular
requestee based on any criteria they like (providing it matches their given
purpose).  I'm sure the PSF would be fine receiving requests that deal with
closed-source development.  Like Tim said, it's likely that an open source
project would benefit more people, and so more likely that it will beat out
closed source competitors.  That doesn't mean that it's impossible for a
closed source project to get a grant.

If your intent was to say "hey, it would help if you were more clear about
these points", then an email saying that would have probably worked better
<0.5 wink>.

> Under common law, 

Whose?  Melbourne's?  Australia's?  The USA's?  It seems likely that it's
the latter that would apply here, given that the PSF is a US organisation.

> although PSF can attach further strings to the grant in the grant
> letter, it is morally incorrect to do so.

In what way?  It certainly seems to me that the morally correct thing to do
is to do their best in selecting projects that meet the stated aims of the
grants.  If that means an open source project, then it does.  If that means
a closed source project, then it does.

> At the same time, although common law may allow such an act, I 
> am not too sure how this will seems in the eyes of equal opportunities
> law and anti-discrimination laws, amongst others.

It seems more than a stretch to apply those sorts of laws to a decision
about particular licenses...

> In either sense, I hate to think that I may eventually force 
> PSF to give me a grant for close sourced project.

I imagine that everyone hates that idea.  I can't see any possible way that
you could do this, though, so we can all be relived <0.5 wink>.

It really does seem that the appropriate move is to simply wait for someone
from the grants committee to have time to respond to your questions.  Isn't
that what you would do with any other grant?  (It's certainly what I would
do).

=Tony Meyer



From ehab_teima at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 10 19:53:15 2004
From: ehab_teima at hotmail.com (Ehab Teima)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 16:53:15 -0700
Subject: Writing traceback
Message-ID: <17aafe08.0408101553.6cf3840c@posting.google.com>

Hello,

I have built a server application. It's multithreaded, and everything
works fine so far. I have only one issue with catching exceptions
after I read the documentation but I can't find any problems yet. I'm
catching all errors throughout the code into a function and I write
the traceback to the server log as well as the screen. That's all. I
need not to save it or anything else. The documentation said the
function (in this example catchError) should not handle exceptions
itself. How would I get around this issue given that writing to the
server log must not stop the server? In other words, the function
itself must handle and ignore any exceptions raised by itself. i.e. I
want to make sure that failing to write to the server log is ignored.

The code I have looks like this:

try:
    handleClient(...)
except:
    catchError(sys.exc_info())

def catchError(excInfo):
    print 'An error occured'
    try:
        fo=open(log, "w")
        print_exc()
        print_exc(None, fo)
        fo.close()
    except:
        print 'Could not write to the server log'


From rnd at onego.ru  Fri Aug 13 13:30:33 2004
From: rnd at onego.ru (Roman Suzi)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 21:30:33 +0400 (MSD)
Subject: def ... decorate
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed2040813095978a56402@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<d11dcfba.0408111433.43f025f8@posting.google.com>
	<slrnchnlm3.vq2.nick@irishsea.home.craig-wood.com>
	<16668.57321.308134.676624@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0408132052020.3596@rnd.onego.ru>
	<e69d3ed2040813095978a56402@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408132128330.3596@rnd.onego.ru>

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Anthony Baxter wrote:

>On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 20:55:39 +0400 (MSD), Roman Suzi <rnd at onego.ru> wrote:
>>
>> Bingo!
>>
>> Just replace decorate with "from" and the nice syntax is found:
>>
>>     def f:
>>         staticmethod
>>         grammarrule('statement : expression')
>>         version("Added in 2.4")
>>         deprecatedmethod
>>         type_(None)
>>     from self, p:
>>         """docstring here"""
>>         print p[1]
>
>I _really_ _really_ dislike re-using 'from' in this way. It's really confusing.
>
>I also don't like the way it's splitting the argument list out like
>that. It's a _big_
>change from how things work today, and will break pretty much _every_
>tool that works with Python source, and badly.

>For instance, I often end up doing some equivalent of "grep 'def funcname'"

Probably egrep '(def|from)' could save you...

>and like the fact that I get the start (at least) of the argument
>list. More often
>than not, I get the full argument list, which is what I was looking for in the
>first place.
>

Sincerely yours, Roman Suzi
-- 
rnd at onego.ru =\= My AI powered by GNU/Linux RedHat 7.3


From zathras at thwackety.com  Sun Aug 22 09:37:24 2004
From: zathras at thwackety.com (Michael Sparks)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 14:37:24 +0100
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WE
	DONE?
References: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<10igvr2d1hlgmc9@news.supernews.com>
	<p4qdnb7vwYX6D7XcRVn-tA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <4128a660$0$79620$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net>

Peter Hansen wrote:
...
> Although I'm not sure it was implemented this way, I
> believe there may be an intent to support the usual
> sort of one-line version as this (using an alternate
> keyword instead of "decorate" which now seems doomed):
> 
>      using: staticmethod
>      def foo(bar, baz):
>          pass
> 
> That makes it no extra lines, but still explicit and Pythonic
> in nature.
> 
> (Michael, was that how you implemented the latest?)

I'm certainly intending to have this short form. However first of all I'm
working through producing a full patch based on Anthony Baxter's pointer,
to the original patch.

When I do add the short form, it's most likely to include the replacement
"using" keyword. The impact of "decorate" and "declare" on user code looks
too large for comfort. (Well known projects broken by one or the other
include mailman and Pyrex)

Interestingly though the form as implemented does already allow for:

decorate:
   staticmethod synchronised deprecated
def foo(baz):
   pass

Largely because the current 2.4a2 form allows for:

@staticmethod @synchronised @deprecated
def foo(baz):
   pass

Both of which strike me generally speaking as nicer than the long list
approach. Once I've made the change I intend to make (assuming it's simple
enough) I'll make the simple/short form allow (assuming possible):

using: staticmethod synchronized deprecated memoize
def foo(baz):
   pass

Mark Russell did a real a really nice job on the original implementation,
and when this is all over that's where the real thanks are due!

Regards,


Michael.



From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 14:37:43 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:37:43 +0200
Subject: Class Friends
References: <20040827081556.657c3fac.a@c.d>
Message-ID: <1gj727c.48hz5o3gw46dN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Sean Don <a at c.d> wrote:

> Hello!
> 
> Is it possible to make classes friends in Python? Or is it better to just
stick
> to "Java style" .isThis, .getThat, .setThis style functions? 

Neither.  "friends" has no possible meaning in Python terms.  Accessor
methods are a horrid idea in Python: if you ever need access to an
attribute to trigger the execution of some code, why, use 'property' --
that's what it's THERE for!


> I understand that classes are generally grouped logically into separate
files
> anyway. So, this isn't always necessary. But I'm a perfectionist and was
> wondering if friendships were possible in Python.

What could 'friendship' possibly ever MEAN in a Python context...?!


Alex


From martindemello at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  2 09:48:07 2004
From: martindemello at yahoo.com (Martin DeMello)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 13:48:07 GMT
Subject: Newbie: pywin problem
Message-ID: <rCrPc.154159$Mr4.50525@pd7tw1no>

Here's a transcript:

>>> import win32ui
>>> template = pywin.mfc.docview.DocTemplate(None)
>>> doc = pywin.scintilla.document.CScintillaDocument(template)
>>> view = pywin.scintilla.view.CScintillaView(doc)
>>> fr = win32ui.GetMainFrame()
>>> view.CreateWindow(fr)

Now how do I get the window to display? I thought the call to
CreateWindow would do it, but the window just gets created silently.

martin


From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Aug 26 02:09:40 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:09:40 +0200
Subject: Best processor (i386) for Python performance?
In-Reply-To: <789f72ac.0408251950.e85d23e@posting.google.com>
References: <789f72ac.0408251950.e85d23e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <412d7e9d$0$26184$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

> Raw clock speed?
> Cache size?
> Bus speed?
> Intel's Hyperthreading?
> AMD's 64 bits?

Python applications are often memory intensive, so a fast bus
and a large cache should help. Also, raw clock speed should help.
Hyperthreading and AMD64 are irrelevant (although for the latter,
it would be interesting to see how linux-x86 compares to
linux-amd64 on the same machine for Python performance).

Regards,
Martin


From adurdin at gmail.com  Sat Aug 21 01:39:52 2004
From: adurdin at gmail.com (Andrew Durdin)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 15:39:52 +1000
Subject: Overriding logical operators?
Message-ID: <59e9fd3a04082022392b749256@mail.gmail.com>

In Python, you can override the behaviour of most operators for a
class, by defining __add__, __gt__, and the other special object
methods.

I noticed that, although there are special methods for most operators,
they are conspicuously absent for the logical "or" and "and". I'm
guessing that the reason for this is that these operators
short-circuit if their first operand answers the whole question?

Would it be possible to allow overriding the logical operators, with
the caveat that overriding it would prevent short-circuiting?


From http  Mon Aug 16 21:44:43 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 18:44:43 -0700
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
Message-ID: <7xk6vyczck.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Nick Patavalis <npat at efault.net> writes:
> If you define a function like:
> 
>   def sum (a, b):
>     return a + b
> 
> How can the compiler know what code to produce? It could trace all the
> applications of sum(), and decide what types of arguments sum() is
> actually applied on. But this is not easy, and sometimes it is
> straight-out impossible.

Compilers for languages like Lisp and Smaltalk have dealt with this
for decades.  They can either generate code that switches on the type
tags, or have dispatch tables in the objects that point to code for
operations like "+", or take advice or declarations from the
programmer about the arg types, among other possibilities.  Any of
these approaches generates code that runs much faster than interpreted code.


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Wed Aug 11 15:56:39 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:56:39 -0400
Subject: Rather than decorators, how about sections?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1525.1092252887.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <cfdegs$5oo$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<1C74C038-EBB6-11D8-8889-000A95857E5C@eischet.com>
	<mailman.1516.1092244260.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<411a6b9d$0$13688$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
	<mailman.1525.1092252887.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408111554120.25138-100000@ccc1.wpi.edu>

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Paul Morrow wrote:

> Fine, instead of Foo (the name of the class), use the word klass.  It's 
> a popular name for the first parameter of a class method.

My code uses 'cls' for this purpose.  I'm sure others stick with 'self'.  
No matter what you pick, it will break something.

To quote the Zen of Python: "Explicit is better than implicit."



From jess.austin at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 17:55:52 2004
From: jess.austin at gmail.com (Jess Austin)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 14:55:52 -0700
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040824200256aff0f0@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.2329.1093405781.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b8ad139e.0408251613.1f7faa51@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <b8ad139e.0408261355.6a643767@posting.google.com>

jess.austin at gmail.com (Jess Austin) wrote in message news:<b8ad139e.0408251613.1f7faa51 at posting.google.com>...
> This is a difference between classes and functions.  But maybe it
> could be "swept under the rug" in the following way.  Code like this:
> 
> using:
>     metaclass_decorator(baz)
> class foo(bar):
>     a = 1
>     def moo(self):
>         pass
> 
> could cause something similar to the following:
> 
> foo = metaclass_decorator(baz)('foo', (<class '__main__.bar'>,), {'a':
> 1, 'moo': <function moo at 0x00879E70>, '__module__': '__main__'})

So I thought a bit about this, and I think a better equivalent would
be:

foo = metaclass_decorator(baz)(type('foo', (<class '__main__.bar'>,), 
                                    {'a': 1, 
                                     'moo': <function moo at
0x00879E70>,
                                     '__module__': '__main__'}))

Smart pythonistas have probably already thought of this.  It just took
me a day or two.

later,
Jess


From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Aug 12 13:44:22 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (simo)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 10:44:22 -0700
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
	<cf8trp$lnp$1@nic.grnet.gr>
	<a22gh0dsb94ffqqjqhb3igufi65ap7pg4d@4ax.com>
	<pkulu1-74f.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<30260531.0408102005.5847b9c@posting.google.com>
	<3hpou1-09i.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
Message-ID: <30260531.0408120944.5d9ea9f2@posting.google.com>

"Roger Binns" <rogerb at rogerbinns.com> wrote in message news:<3hpou1-09i.ln1 at home.rogerbinns.com>...
> simo wrote:
> > I noticed you have RPMs for Linux - so what do they include - a
> > complete wxWidgets/GTK+/Python distribution, plus your files?
> 
> $ rpm -qpl dotamatic-0.2-0.i386.rpm
> /usr/bin/dotamatic
> /usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2
> /usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/_localemodule.so
> /usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/dotamatic
> /usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/dotamatic.css
> /usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/libwx_gtkd-2.4.so
> /usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/mathmodule.so
> /usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/pcre.so
> /usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/pwdmodule.so
> /usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/resources
> /usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/resources/dotamatic.htb
> /usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/resources/standard.jpg
> /usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/strop.so
> /usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/timemodule.so
> /usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/wxPython.htmlc.so
> /usr/lib/dotamatic-0.2/wxPython.wxc.so
> 
> The file in /usr/bin is a shell script that just execs the dotamatic
> binary in /usr/lib.  The dotmatic executable is actually the Python
> interpretter with an archive containing the bytecode appended.
> Only the Python and wxPython modules used are present.

So how are you generating this interpreter/bytecode archive? It
basically sounds like the kind of thing py2exe does, but you've made
an object file or something. How did you calculate the dependencies?

I'm heading off to your site to see if you have the build environment
in with the source ;o)


From avner at skilldesign.com  Mon Aug  9 13:14:08 2004
From: avner at skilldesign.com (Avner Ben)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 19:14:08 +0200
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar, but for what exactly?
In-Reply-To: <d111eafa.0408090138.23bc6989@posting.google.com>
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
	<4115b53a$1@nntp0.pdx.net> <4116239e$1@news.012.net.il>
	<d111eafa.0408081949.3c28a465@posting.google.com>
	<d111eafa.0408090138.23bc6989@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <4117a43b$1@news.012.net.il>

xtian wrote:
>[snip]
> 
> def property_(f):
>     return property(*f())

Where has the property Without Underscore come from?

>[snip]
>     
> t = DecorationTest()
> print t.foo
> t.foo = 3
> print t.foo
> 

Will you please explain how the assignment and retrieval work?

	Avner.


From gilles.lenfant at nospam.com  Tue Aug 17 08:29:52 2004
From: gilles.lenfant at nospam.com (Gilles Lenfant)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:29:52 +0200
Subject: music resources
In-Reply-To: <1qfUc.128080$gE.84239@pd7tw3no>
References: <mailman.1769.1092710233.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1qfUc.128080$gE.84239@pd7tw3no>
Message-ID: <4121fae7$0$19635$626a14ce@news.free.fr>

Elaine Jackson a ?crit :

> Thanks for your suggestions. What I want to do with music is to learn it and
> play with it. Even an auditory equivalent of "MS Paint" would probably keep me
> busy for some time, since I'm essentially starting from zero.

The kind of tool you need depends on your skills in music and what you 
want to do (sample/design sounds, compose/arrange music), but it's 
certainly not a Python package (but who knows ;-).

Google for "music sequencer" and you'll certainly find what you need. 
Note you'll certainly need a good sound card and a MIDI keyboard.

--
Gilles


From norman.werner at student.uni-magdeburg.de  Thu Aug 26 09:03:53 2004
From: norman.werner at student.uni-magdeburg.de (norman werner)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 06:03:53 -0700
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<VJOdnfiBTci22rDcRVn-gg@adelphia.com>
	<aNidnUSV4-OK4rDcRVn-jA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <b301fb47.0408260503.5dbb08f5@posting.google.com>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message news:<aNidnUSV4-OK4rDcRVn-jA at powergate.ca>...
> Robert wrote:
> 
> > Isn't "Xah Lee" chinese for "Moron"?
> 
> No, it's Esperanto (universal language) for "troll"...
> 
> -Peter

Bonvolu ne s:ercu pri nekonatoj aferoj. "Xah Lee" certe - pro manko de
Ikso - ne estas esperanto. Kaj via s:erco nur s:tulta estas.


Norman
tradukita:
You certainly have not the slightest idea about esperanto. So please 
dont't emberass yourself. And back to topic(?): "Xah lee" is not
esperanto.


From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Aug 13 02:09:50 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 08:09:50 +0200
Subject: undefined symbol: PyUnicodeUCS4_FromUnicode
In-Reply-To: <MgVSc.316$ni.147@okepread01>
References: <MgVSc.316$ni.147@okepread01>
Message-ID: <411c5b24$0$26992$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

Bill Hodges wrote:
> output is:
> 
> psyco installed and used
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/site-packages/drt/drt.py", line 40, in ?
>     from qt import *
> ImportError: /usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/qt.so: undefined symbol: 
> PyUnicodeUCS4_FromUnicode
> 
> Any pointers on how to resolve?

It appears that you have built qt.so for UCS-4, but the installed Python
is UCS-2. Do "nm -D /usr/bin/python2.3|grep UCS" to verify that.

If so, make sure the pyconfig.h that you are using belongs to the
/usr/bin/python you are using.

Regards,
Martin


From chris_invalid at yahoo.fr  Tue Aug 24 18:13:58 2004
From: chris_invalid at yahoo.fr (Christophe)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:13:58 +0200
Subject: Make problem on Solaris : how to use Modules/Setup.config.in
Message-ID: <20040825001358.232d0fc4@linuxcestcomplique>

Hello,

I'm trying to build python 2.3.4 on Solaris 8 (SunOS 5.8) and I ran into
a little problem with the socket/ssl module :

************************************
gcc -shared build/temp.solaris-2.8-sun4u-2.3/_ssl.o -lssl -lcrypto -o
build/lib.solaris-2.8-sun4u-2.3/_ssl.so
ld: fatal: relocations remain against allocatable but non-writable
sections
collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
*** WARNING: renaming "_ssl" since importing it failed:
ld.so.1:./python: fatal: build/lib.solaris-2.8-sun4u-2.3/_ssl.so: open
failed: No such file or directory
error: No such file or directory
*** Error code 1
make: Fatal error: Command failed for target `sharedmods'
************************************

I know that this problem has happened before :
http://groups.google.fr/groups?hl=fr&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=mailman.1063659200.574.python-list%40python.org&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dsolaris%2Bssl%2Bgroup:comp.lang.python%26hl%3Dfr%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26selm%3Dmailman.1063659200.574.python-list%2540python.org%26rnum%3D1

But I don't understand the solution :
"You must make sure that the library you link with is
position-independent, or else you must build _ssl as a builtin module
(i.e. through Modules/Setup, as non-shared)."

Because I haven't found the manual to use the Modules/Setup.config.in

How can I modify the Modules/Setup.config.in to build ssl as a builtin
module ?

Thanks in advance,


From __peter__ at web.de  Mon Aug 16 11:13:37 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:13:37 +0200
Subject: Regular expression problem with groups
References: <9b5e8d9.0408160708.37aa9ae3@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfqiv1$fba$07$1@news.t-online.com>

Axel Kowald wrote:

> Hi everybody,
> 
> I have a 'simple' problem with regular expressions. Maybe someone can
> help me.
> 
> import re
> bla = 'the the'
> obj = re.search('(.+) \1',bla)
> 
> obj.group(1) should now be 'the'. Instead obj is none (python 2.3
> under windows and 2.1 under linux). The problem seems to be the \1
> where I try to reference the first group. However, every tutorial says
> this is the correct way to do it !?
> 
> Any ideas what I'm doing wrong ?

You did neither escape the backslash nor use a raw string.

>>> re.search("(.+) \\1", "the the").group(1)
'the'

>>> re.search(r"(.+) \1", "the the").group(1)
'the'

The latter is the most convenient way to use with regular expressions with
the limitation that it may not end with an odd number of backslashes.

Peter



From da_rosser at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  4 14:38:17 2004
From: da_rosser at yahoo.com (Doug Rosser)
Date: 4 Aug 2004 11:38:17 -0700
Subject: Mucking with the calling scripts namespace (For a good reason,
	honest!)
References: <e08cd05f.0408020727.15ce4356@posting.google.com>
	<rJudnRiTPvRB8JPcRVn-gw@comcast.com>
	<e08cd05f.0408031120.4eb60a7b@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408031540350.10945-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <e08cd05f.0408041038.3b884721@posting.google.com>

Christopher T King <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote in message news:<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408031540350.10945-100000 at ccc6.wpi.edu>...
> On 3 Aug 2004, Doug Rosser wrote:
> 
> > 1. Python doesn't provide an obvious way to modify the __main__
> > namespace. You can peek at values with "global" but you can't treat it
> > like a dictionary at runtime.
> 
> The globals() function returns just the dictionary you're looking for.
> Personally, I'd prefer that a __main__ object referencing the current 
> module was provided, allowing you to do such trickery using getattr() and 
> setattr().  Something as simple as the following would suffice:
> 
>  class objifier(object):
>       def __init__(self,d):
>           self.__dict__ = d
> 
>  __main__ = objifier(globals())
> 
> Then you do stuff like:
> 
> >>> __main__.b = 6
> >>> b
>  6
> >>> b = 20
> >>> __main__.b
>  20
> >>> getattr(__main__,"b")
>  20
> >>> setattr(__main__,"b",6)
> >>> b
> 6

/Me slaps his forehead. Python provides the functionality I'm looking
for already. After reading the Python 2.3 documentation for globals(),
I stumbled upon "exec". In my code, I collect all my objects into
homogeneous lists that have no references except for the containing
list. To add the references I'm looking for, I'm going to do something
like:

for server in myTest.servers:
    exec server.iniLabel +"="+ server in globaldict

The code hasn't been debugged...caveat emptor...

* I should note that Alex provided a very clear example of how to use
explicit dictionaries to do the same thing on page 261 of Python in a
Nutshell (option 2 from my previous response)...still debating the
merits of both approaches

da rosser


From ccurvey at earthlink.net  Sun Aug 29 20:12:18 2004
From: ccurvey at earthlink.net (Chris Curvey)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 00:12:18 GMT
Subject: cPickle and __getattr__
Message-ID: <ChuYc.2094$w%6.858@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>

Hi all,

I have this program

class Company:
    def __init__(self, revenues, costs):
       self.revenues = revenues
       self.costs = costs

    def __getattr__(self, name):
        if name == 'profits':
            return self.revenues - self.costs

c = Company(100, 75)
print c.revenues
print c.costs
print c.profits

import cPickle
print cPickle.dumps(c)

Everything works fine up until the last line.  If I remove the 
__getattr__ function, then everything works (except "print c.profits"). 
  What is the cPickle class trying to get to that is causing my 
__getattr__ function to be called?

-Chris



From richie at entrian.com  Thu Aug 26 11:14:43 2004
From: richie at entrian.com (Richie Hindle)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:14:43 +0100
Subject: Specific request with code example (encapsulation) __init__
	problems
In-Reply-To: <cgkt4e$lav@odah37.prod.google.com>
References: <cgkt4e$lav@odah37.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <8luri0pps5e37ajtc4u66sqj3b4vgta8qg@4ax.com>


[Justin]
> my problem is now it appears that my widgets are completely
> encapsulated within this __init__ class and I cannot get at them.

That's not true if you say "self.x = y", as you have done with self.rb in
your posted example.  I don't know why your code doesn't work - you seem to
be doing the right thing, and if I modify your Gobblewx_7public_.py to match
your posted example then it all works.

Here's what I did: I downloaded Gobblewx_7public_.py (a couple of days ago,
when you first mentioned it) changed 'rb' to 'self.rb' throughout the
Gmainpanel.__init__ function (lines 484-493), and added the line:

            self.rb.SetItemLabel(1, "test change")

as the first line of the yousuredlg function (line 571).  When I fill in the
form and hit "Download files", the label changes.

Note that it's SetItemLabel, not SetLabel, which implies that you never
called your changelabel function, or you didn't look at the resulting
traceback...

-- 
Richie Hindle
richie at entrian.com



From pinard at iro.umontreal.ca  Mon Aug 23 13:07:27 2004
From: pinard at iro.umontreal.ca (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois?= Pinard)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:07:27 -0400
Subject: J2 paper 0.2.1
In-Reply-To: <d11dcfba.0408230845.f8931c8@posting.google.com>
References: <mailman.2180.1093238695.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<10ijfibd8qo84b5@news.supernews.com>
	<d11dcfba.0408230845.f8931c8@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <20040823170727.GA10319@titan.progiciels-bpi.ca>

[Steven Bethard]
> [Robert Brewer]
> > The first draft of the J2 proposal is ready. You can read it here:
> > http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html

> Outstanding job here.  Your arguments are very clear and thorough and
> I think you defend J2 against pretty much every objection that was
> brought up against it.

All superb indeed.  Congratulations, and thanks.

Thanks also to Michael for the implementation, and to Paul who helped us all
at channelling the conversation.

-- 
Fran?ois Pinard   http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard


From askari at addressNonValide.com  Sun Aug  8 22:00:59 2004
From: askari at addressNonValide.com (Askari)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 02:00:59 GMT
Subject: Pygame - Only ONE Font found!?
References: <Xns95369F0F85C5DaskariaddressNonVali@207.35.177.135>
	<mailman.1054.1091457050.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Xns953FE0060B9C1askariaddressNonVali@207.35.177.135>

Pete Shinners <pete at shinners.org> wrote in 
news:mailman.1054.1091457050.5135.python-list at python.org:

> Askari wrote:
>> print "ListFont :", pygame.font.get_fonts()
>> 
>> the resultat is:
>>     ListFont : ['netropaosdicon']
> 
> On Windows, Pygame finds its system fonts in the registry. It looks 
> under one of these locations. I'd say load up regedit and see if your 
> fonts are in there.
> 
>      "SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Fonts"
>      "SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Fonts"
> 
> 

Thanks!  :-)   I fixed my problem to copy the times.tff in a directory and 
I can have my font with the function :
       pygame.font.Font(pathdata+"times.ttf",XX)     



I find only one font in:
     "SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Fonts"
and a lot fonts (and my font, times) in:
     "SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Fonts"


Pygame go see in the both key or just the first finded?
And, I export the keys (from "SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion
\Fonts" to "SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Fonts") and, now, 
pygame list(find) more fonts with :
        "pygame.font.get_fonts()"
but, "times"  isn't in the list...    :-(

Askari


From gmuller at worldonline.nl  Tue Aug 24 16:13:48 2004
From: gmuller at worldonline.nl (GerritM)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 22:13:48 +0200
Subject: python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
References: <mailman.2274.1093330945.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <412ba18a$0$62388$5fc3050@dreader2.news.tiscali.nl>

"Brett Cannon" <bac at OCF.Berkeley.EDU> schreef in bericht
news:mailman.2274.1093330945.5135.python-list at python.org...
<...snip...>
> These stats along with the insane amount of email has showed me
> something; the Summaries have detracted from my participation on
> python-dev this past year.  I have a bigger mouth and more opinions than
> the number of emails I sent to the list show.  This means something has
> to change, and it isn't going to be my mouth.  The Summaries need to
> change in one of two ways.
<...snip...>
> Option two out of all of this is people just say, "summarize what you
> want, Brett."  Then I just cover what I find interesting and just don't
> worry about covering a specific area.  I obviously prefer this option
> but if people really care about a specific area I want to make sure to
> cover it.  What will most likely happen is I will still cover almost
> everything but the thoroughness will be lower.  I will go more off of
> memory for example.

Yes, please cover what you find interesting!
I prefer to read something with a personal taste in it.
Please don't be replaced by a thorough bot that does a mechanistic
summarizing job.
I always like your summaries.
>
<...snip...>

kind regards, Gerrit




From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 28 08:45:20 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 08:45:20 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
Message-ID: <cgpup0$mqc$1@sea.gmane.org>

Bengt Richter wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:39:51 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Anthony Baxter wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:09:42 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Yes, it doesn't seem all that complex, although I'm not sure that
>>>>everyone reading this understands them and their subtleties.  The
>>>>following is an excerpt from
>>>>http://docs.python.org/tut/node11.html#SECTION0011200000000000000000
>>>>
>>>>"A namespace is a mapping from names to objects. Most namespaces are
>>>>currently implemented as Python dictionaries, but that's normally not
>>>>noticeable in any way (except for performance), and it may change in the
>>>>future. Examples of namespaces are: the set of built-in names (functions
>>>>such as abs(), and built-in exception names); the global names in a
>>>>module; and the local names in a function invocation. In a sense the set
>>>>of attributes of an object also form a namespace."
>>>
>>>
>>>>When I talk about namespaces, I include all of the above, including the
>>>>sense mentioned in the last line.  So an object's attributes constitute
>>>>a namespace too.  Therefore __doc__, being an attribute of the function
>>>>object, is in the function object's /namespace/.  And note that this is
>>>>*not* a new namespace; it's been there all along.
>>>
>>>
>>>"In a sense" is the bit you're missing here. You can't just hand-wave
>>>and say that it's a namespace. It's *not* a namespace. If it was, you
>>>could do any of these:
>>>
>>
>>No I didn't miss it (I read that bit).  In a sense, every object has 
>>it's own namespace.  So that means that every class, every module, every 
>>function has a namespace (in a sense).  The namespace (the mapping from 
>>names to objects) is stored in each object's special __dict__ attribute.
>>
>>Ok, and this is certainly apparent with classes.
>>
>>  >>> class Foo:
>>  ... 	"""docstring for Foo"""
>>  ...
>>  >>> Foo.__doc__
>>  'docstring for Foo'
>>  >>> Foo.__dict__.keys()
>>  ['__module__', '__doc__']
>>  >>>
>>
>>And because of the parallels between the above class definition of Foo 
>>and the following function definition of baz, I would expect the same 
>>behavior.
>>
>>  >>> def baz():
>>  ...    """docstring of baz"""
>>  ...
>>  >>> baz.__doc__
>>  'docstring of baz'
>>  >>> baz.__dict__.keys()
>>  []
>>
>>Say what?  Why didn't the Python system put baz's docstring into it's 
>>namespace (__dict__)?   And where did it put it?
>>
>>I would like to understand the answers to these questions.  Can you 
>>answer them (will you)?  If not, can you please point me at something 
>>that documents what's going on here?
>>
>>Thanks.
>>
> 
> It looks to me like __doc__ is a descriptor (or c-code that acts like one)
> (i.e., like a property) of the function class:
> 
>  >>> def foo():
>  ...     'foo doc string'
>  ...
> 
> Find __doc__ in the class dict:
>  >>> type(foo).__dict__['__doc__']
>  <member '__doc__' of 'function' objects>
> 
> Check on its nature a little:
>  >>> type(type(foo).__dict__['__doc__'])
>  <type 'member_descriptor'>
> 
> It should have a __get__ method
>  >>> type(foo).__dict__['__doc__'].__get__
>  <method-wrapper object at 0x00901410>
> 
> Call that with foo as object instance:
>  >>> type(foo).__dict__['__doc__'].__get__(foo,None)
>  'foo doc string'
> 
> Try writing the __doc__ property (check for __set__ first):
>  >>> type(foo).__dict__['__doc__'].__set__
>  <method-wrapper object at 0x00901490>
> 
> Do long version of foo.__doc__ = 'new docstring'
>  >>> type(foo).__dict__['__doc__'].__set__(foo, 'new docstring') # foo.__doc__ = ...
> 
> Look at it using the short spelling:
>  >>> foo.__doc__
>  'new docstring'
> 
> And the long:
>  >>> type(foo).__dict__['__doc__'].__get__(foo,None)
>  'new docstring'
> 
> foo.func_doc seems to be implemented in a similar way:
>  >>> type(foo).__dict__['func_doc'].__get__(foo,None)
>  'new docstring'
>  >>> foo.func_doc
>  'new docstring'
> 
> Even the dict of a function instance appears to be implemented as a property:
>  >>> type(type(foo).__dict__['__dict__'])
>  <type 'getset_descriptor'>
>  >>> type(foo).__dict__['__dict__'].__get__(foo,None)
>  {}
>  >>> foo.x=123
>  >>> type(foo).__dict__['__dict__'].__get__(foo,None)
>  {'x': 123}
> 
> Short spelling:
>  >>> foo.__dict__
>  {'x': 123}
> 
> I haven't been into the implementation code, but this interpretation
> of surface appearances seems to fit.
> 
> Regards,
> Bengt Richter

Cool!  Thanks!  Now I need to ponder why a function's docstring needs a 
different implementation than a class's docstring (i.e. why not just 
make it a straigtforward attribute of the function object).




From thomas.krueger at gmx.net  Tue Aug 10 05:53:53 2004
From: thomas.krueger at gmx.net (Thomas =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kr=FCger?=)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 11:53:53 +0200
Subject: Python equivalent to a C trick
References: <1d7b6d0d.0408092255.1177908e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfa5vu$jg8$01$1@news.t-online.com>

Dan wrote:

> Is there a python equivalent of this trick in C?
> 
> Logic_Test ? True_Result : False_Result
> 
> Example:
> printf( "you have %i %s", num_eggs, num_eggs > 1 ? "eggs" : "egg" );

Logic_Test and True_Result or False_Result

Example:
print (num_eggs > 1) and 'eggs" or "egg"

Thomas


From timrueAT at mindspringDOT.com  Sat Aug 21 14:13:43 2004
From: timrueAT at mindspringDOT.com (threeseas)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:13:43 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <MO-dnZ9bRv3djLvcRVn-jQ@comcast.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<10ia1a9jm9tkuca@corp.supernews.com>
	<dpWdnT7p6KbzlbjcRVn-jw@powergate.ca>
	<84GdneSa3r-TR7jcRVn-tw@powergate.ca>
	<cg4tcl$run$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
	<MO-dnZ9bRv3djLvcRVn-jQ@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <rhMVc.8900$3O3.5692@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>

Doug Holton wrote:
>> Exactly. From this standpoint, the list on the wiki should be filtered 
>> to something that
>>   1) doesn't have the declaration in the body of the function
>>   2) doesn't have the declaration following the parameters
>>
>> 1) rules out D1 D2 E1 E2
>> 2) rules out C1 C2 C3 C4 E3
> 
> 
> I don't think so.  C1 was the clear community favorite for months and 
> still has many supporters.  And putting the decorator at the top of the 
> function had many supporters in the poll last week.
> 
>> With the voting going the way it currently is J2 is winning anyway, 
> 
> 
> J2 is winning because it was actively discussed right here on this 
> newsgroup this past week.  When I did a poll last week, E1 had just been 
> actively discussed and it gained a lot of support.  Next week who knows 
> what will be the current flavor?

a definable syntax is the solution direction, even if only as a stepping 
stone to letting the "standard" simply come about the old fashon way... 
popular use.

This newsgroup is far to python user limited, and I'd imagine the 
mailing list is not much better, and IRC....

what is the estimate user/coder count regarding python? (perhaps what 
would be more accurate would be coding hours over user/coder count)
where any changes or new things should keep the sum low.

Python promotes ease of use in regards to power/functionality level.

shrug...

not that I really care, but perhaps its a bit more objective.


From rganesan at myrealbox.com  Fri Aug 27 01:19:09 2004
From: rganesan at myrealbox.com (Ganesan R)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 10:49:09 +0530
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2421.1093525633.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <xkvhwtzljgz6.fsf@cisco.com>

>>>>> "David" == David Vaughan <David.Vaughan at Gifford.UK.com> writes:

> I vote FOR the "J2" proposal as described at
> http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html
> Please add my name to the "in favor" list there.

ABSTAIN Ganesan Rajagopal (rganesan at myrealbox.com)

I don't care either way. I am not even convinced that decorators are a good
thing for python. I've dabbled a bit in C#, and that's the only case where
I've seen decorators at work. It seems to add a bit of black magic to
functions, and I am not convinced it's a good thing.

Ganesan



From cce at clarkevans.com  Tue Aug 24 18:06:52 2004
From: cce at clarkevans.com (Clark C. Evans)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:06:52 -0400
Subject: iterators: class vs generator
Message-ID: <20040824220652.GA84484@prometheusresearch.com>

There is an interesting difference between how exceptions are handled
between iterators constructed from a class, and iterators constructed
from a generator.  The following are "mostly equivalent":

      class iterable_via_class:
          def __iter__(self):
              self._next = self._one
              return self
          def next(self):
              return self._next()
          def _one(self):
              self._next = self._two
              return "one"
          def _two(self):
              self._next = self._stop
              return "two"
          def _stop(self):
              raise StopIteration()
          
      def iterable_via_generator():
          yield "one"
          yield "two"

      print "\nclass:"
      for x in iterable_via_class():
          print x

      print "\ngenerator:"
      for x in iterable_via_generator():
          print x

However, when exceptions are involved, behavior can be different:

      class iterable_via_class:
          def __iter__(self):
              self._next = self._one
              return self
          def next(self):
              return self._next()
          def _one(self):
              self._next = self._raise
              return "one"
          def _raise(self):
              self._next = self._two
              raise Exception()
          def _two(self):
              self._next = self._stop
              return "two"
          def _stop(self):
              raise StopIteration()
 
      def iterable_via_generator():
          yield "one"
          raise Exception()
          yield "two"

      def test(itergen):
          it = iter(itergen())
          print it.next()
          try:
             ignore = it.next()
          except:
             pass
          print it.next()

      print "\nclass:"
      test(iterablex)
      print "\ngenerator:"
      test(iterable)


From jbperez808 at wahoo.com  Fri Aug  6 12:01:20 2004
From: jbperez808 at wahoo.com (Jon Perez)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 00:01:20 +0800
Subject: generating uuids / guids
Message-ID: <2nhnrfF13jq0U1@uni-berlin.de>

Is there a Python function that works on all platforms (not just Win32)
to generate such in the DCE / Microsoft format?

If not present, this looks like it would be a very Pythonic addition
to the standard library.


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Thu Aug  5 14:22:43 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 14:22:43 -0400
Subject: Confused about pep 318
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1223.1091728969.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com><mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org><d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com><Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<10h4s026oapbhf1@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1223.1091728969.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051408210.11941-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Anthony Baxter wrote:

> To summarise: As I've stated already, I'm aware that PEP 318 needs an
> update. If no-one else gets it done before next week, I will have time
> to work on it again. If one of the people complaining about it wants to
> sit down and trawl the (literally)  hundreds and hundreds of python-dev
> messages, spread over the last 2+ years, and extract the relevant posts,
> that would be excellent! If you're only going to sit and bitch about it,
> well, I can spend my time better trawling the archives.

I'd be willing to do this this weekend (esp. being Python Bug Day), 
assuming Skip doesn't get to it first.

On a related note, I suggest anyone interested read this thread on 
python-dev, "Call for defense of @decorators": 
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046878.html

In it, Guido makes some very interesting remarks, most notably:

 I also want to find out about superior syntax proposals (from __future__
 import decorators might be acceptable).

and

 ... I suggest that the proponents of syntax alternatives will have
 to agree amongst themselves on a single alternative that they can
 present to me.



From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Thu Aug 12 10:12:57 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:12:57 GMT
Subject: PEP318
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<20040812090056.00001e31@titan>
Message-ID: <7ttmh0t8c3cogtbhhnp1ohqu8b51pda461@4ax.com>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:00:56 +0200, Josef Dalcolmo <dalcolmo at vh-s.de>
wrote:

>Hello,
>
>I just would like to add my vote against using '@' in the Python language.
>

I must say that after days of waffling, and I think an honest effort
to accept where things were going, I woke this morning hating
@decorator.

The existing syntax for this kind of transformation is, in fact,
exactly what one would expect:

foo=staticmathed(foo).

That is the universal langauge for transformations.  And when we try
to explain to anybody what it is that @decorator means, we go back to
the pseudo code that is in fact the existing syntax.

I guess I am mystified what it is that is perceived to have been
gained ... by moving magic outside the function block to the top of a
function in lieu of expressive code outside the function block at the
bottom of the function. Something is created, and then transofrmed -
in the language of transformation that transcends the implementation
detail of what programming language is doing the work.

Art


From raims at dot.com  Wed Aug 18 16:31:40 2004
From: raims at dot.com (Lawrence Oluyede)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 22:31:40 +0200
Subject: IronPython and collections access
References: <dPOUc.39423$4s6.32601@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>
Message-ID: <1iiqxegg4yuqf$.zq42m3fuzh53$.dlg@40tude.net>

In data Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:17:13 GMT, Hoang Do ha scritto:

> import System
> x = System.Collections.BitArray(4)
> x[0]
> 
> The error message is:
> 'System.Collections.BitArray' object has no attribute '__getitem__'.   This
> is the same error with any classes derived from CollectionsBase.

try x.Get(yourindex)

-- 
Lawrence (l dot oluyede at virgilio dot it)
"If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea."
from The Zen of Python by Tim Peters


From reply2group at ndbbm.net  Mon Aug 30 19:34:40 2004
From: reply2group at ndbbm.net (Active8)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 19:34:40 -0400
Subject: Need help importing/installing reportlab module
Message-ID: <1ezngypknj8ju.dlg@news.individual.net>

I did this once and can't remember how <blush> so I read the
reportlab user guid. It says to unzip the reportlab archive - this
is on w2k, BTW, with Python23 - to a directory and make a file
called reportlab.pth in the pythod dir. The only line in this file
is supposed to be the path to the reportlib dir.

Then I'm instructed to open the ... ok I'll close and reopen ... the
python cmd line interpreter and type

import reportlab

so I get

Import Error: no module named reportlab

not too surprizing since I can't find anything named reportlab in
the archive. I did basically the same thing to install PIL and that
worked. I did also download rl_win32_2_3 and move those .pyd files
to the pythod dll dir - I assume a pyd is a python dll - worked for
PIL.

If anyone can help me straighten this out, I'd really apppreciate
it.

TIA
-- 
Best Regards,
Mike


From davidf at sjsoft.com  Fri Aug  6 10:39:28 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 16:39:28 +0200
Subject: advice for perl expert wanting to learn python
In-Reply-To: <xqxacx8l6rk.fsf@cola2.ca.boeing.com>
References: <slrncguga2.fcp.mordor@fly.srk.fer.hr>
	<cevpef$bku$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
	<xqxacx8l6rk.fsf@cola2.ca.boeing.com>
Message-ID: <cf0570$41d$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

Harry George wrote:
> David Fraser <davidf at sjsoft.com> writes:
>>Zeljko Vrba wrote:
>>>And most important thing, how does Python deal with database
>>>connectivity?
>>>Is there a single API (akin to DBI) for connecting to databases?
>>>How does Python support the following databases:
>>>- Oracle
>>>- Postgres
>>>- MySQL
>>>- SQLServer (maybe using freetds?)
>>>- ODBC connectivity (connecting to MS Access)
>>>
>>
>>I have used Oracle, SQLServer and Access via ADO - try adodpapi.sf.net
>>which is a wrapper for ADO to the Python DB-API.
>>But note that you may well not be able to use any of this database
>>stuff from IronPython
>>
>>David
> 
> 
> More cross-platform and cross-DBMS is to code to the DB-API 2.0:
> http://www.python.org/topics/database/

Thats why I said to look at adodbapi.sourceforge.net although I misspelt 
it - it is DB-API 2.0 compliant.

David


From jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl  Fri Aug 20 14:37:44 2004
From: jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl (Jarek Zgoda)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:37:44 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <mailman.1885.1092846489.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cg0beo$obh$4@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>
	<903b3fba.0408200036.e3a1f6d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cg5gdo$3a1$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>

vronskij at post.sk <vronskij at post.sk> pisze:

>> Me too, I started programming rather late, when I was 26 and I realised
>> that I will be unable to make (good) living as philosophy graduate,
>> specialized in medieval ethics (st. Thomas, Duns et al.). This makes me
>> "young software developer" still, as I program for 7 years effectively.
>> ;)
> 
> Than you have something others might not have.  A motivation ...

I feel this kind of "motivation" each time I try to change employer. ;)

-- 
Jarek Zgoda
http://jpa.berlios.de/


From richie at entrian.com  Fri Aug 27 05:56:44 2004
From: richie at entrian.com (Richie Hindle)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:56:44 +0100
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <cgl37h$6ss$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<412cf775$0$11496$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net>
	<cgl37h$6ss$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5n0ui0lg8p37qrtvaimrlpms8s2qsa41ge@4ax.com>


[Michael]
> Patch against current CVS including __future__ statements/declarations
> has now been created, tested and uploaded to SourceForge. All tests
> pass.

Nice one - well done for all your work on this.

> British Broadcasting Corporation, Research and Development

Is my license fee paying for this?  If so, great!  8-)  Makes for a much
better investment than Fame Academy.

-- 
Richie Hindle
richie at entrian.com



From Moiz.Golawala at ge.com  Tue Aug 17 14:55:38 2004
From: Moiz.Golawala at ge.com (Golawala, Moiz M (GE Infrastructure))
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:55:38 -0500
Subject: read input file a line as a list in python
Message-ID: <4BF8D93CF6F73F4890EB6ED8009ECE191C5D05@FTWMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com>

oh.. to parse the line that you have into a list you could do this as well.

line = "hello world I am new to python"
lineList = line.split()

#this will get you a list of all the word in the line.

These are basic features of the language. It will serve you well to read the documentation at www.python.org

Cheers
Moiz


-----Original Message-----
From: python-list-bounces+moiz.golawala=ge.com at python.org
[mailto:python-list-bounces+moiz.golawala=ge.com at python.org]On Behalf Of
Yong Wang
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 2:41 PM
To: python-list at python.org
Subject: read input file a line as a list in python


Hi, All:
    I need to read a input file as soucre to process data. Ideally
if I can read a line from input file as a list (coloumn separate by
white space), reorganize field in a line. Does python has this kind of 
command ? 
   for example, I read a line has:
   "IP  MAC Date..." as a line from input file, How  can I only get MAC ?
    Thanks,

    Yong
 
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From sdahlbac at abo.fi  Thu Aug 12 08:30:41 2004
From: sdahlbac at abo.fi (Simon Dahlbacka)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 05:30:41 -0700
Subject: import hooks
Message-ID: <ab4c5633.0408120430.726fdac2@posting.google.com>

I recently had a problem caused by path extension (sys.path.extend) so
that a module/package got imported twice both as foo.module and
module, which caused all sorts of problems.

Naturally best is to use absolute paths and avoid path extension, but
this cannot be done in all places.

Anyway, I'd like to prevent such things from happening again by
inserting an __import__ hook to catch these kinds of problems.

I got it installed alright, and it works in the sense that importing
works, but it does not notice double imports. So how exactly am I to
test for this case?

I thought that if __file__ for two modules are the same but not
id(module) would work, but apparently not?

a somewhat related question: why does not built in modules have a
__file__ attribute?

my attempt:
__moduleCache = {}

def __importhook__(name, _globals=None, _locals=None, fromlist=None):
    """Sanity check module imports so that we do not get the same
problem with
    doubly imported modules again"""
    
    mod = _orig__import__(name, globals, locals, fromlist)
   
    tempmod = mod
    components = name.split(".")
    for part in components[1:]:
        try:
            tempmod = getattr(tempmod, part)
            __moduleCache[".".join(components[components.index(part):])]
= tempmod
        except AttributeError:
            pass
    
    for modname in __moduleCache:
        if name in sys.builtin_module_names:
            break
        if modname in sys.builtin_module_names:
            continue
        
        if (getattr(mod, "__file__") ==
getattr(__moduleCache[modname], "__file__") and
            id(mod) != id(__moduleCache[modname])):
            assert False    
    return mod


/Simon

PS. pleace CC me directly


From nobody at nowhere.com  Tue Aug  3 13:10:27 2004
From: nobody at nowhere.com (Yannick Turgeon)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 13:10:27 -0400
Subject: Telnet session
Message-ID: <iEPPc.23049$Vm1.463742@news20.bellglobal.com>

Hello all,



I'm currently trying to pass commands to a telnet session and get the texte
generated (stdin + stdout) by the session. The problem I get is that the
Telnet.read_until() function seems to freeze after a couple of command. I
did a simplify script that reproduce the problem each time (I'm using 2.3.4
on W2K):

-------------------- Begin of script --------------------
import sys
import re
from string import *
from telnetlib import Telnet


TELNET_USER = "myUser"
TELNET_PWD = "myPassword"
TELNET_HOST = "localhost"

TELNET_PROMPT = "C:\\>"

NEWLINE = "\r\n"
TIMEOUT = 1
REMOVEJUNK = 1   #Remove Telnet output junk (formating chars?) before
printing


def printRead(texte):
 if not REMOVEJUNK:
  print texte
  return

 p = re.compile( '(.\[[0-9]{1,2};[0-9]{1,2}H[0-9]?|.\[K)+')
 print p.sub('\n', texte)



# Loging in
tn = Telnet("localhost")
printRead(tn.read_until("login: ", TIMEOUT))
tn.write(TELNET_USER + NEWLINE)
printRead(tn.read_until("password: ", TIMEOUT))
tn.write(TELNET_PWD + NEWLINE)
printRead(tn.read_until(TELNET_PROMPT, TIMEOUT))

# Send commands
tn.write("echo foo" + NEWLINE)
printRead(tn.read_until(TELNET_PROMPT, TIMEOUT))
tn.write("echo bar1" + NEWLINE)
printRead(tn.read_until(TELNET_PROMPT, TIMEOUT))
tn.write("echo bar2" + NEWLINE)
printRead(tn.read_until(TELNET_PROMPT, TIMEOUT))
tn.write("echo bar3" + NEWLINE)
printRead(tn.read_until(TELNET_PROMPT, TIMEOUT))
tn.write("echo bar4" + NEWLINE)
printRead(tn.read_until(TELNET_PROMPT, TIMEOUT))
tn.write("echo bar5" + NEWLINE)
printRead(tn.read_until(TELNET_PROMPT, TIMEOUT))
tn.write("echo bar6" + NEWLINE)
printRead(tn.read_until(TELNET_PROMPT, TIMEOUT))
tn.write("echo bar7" + NEWLINE)
printRead(tn.read_until(TELNET_PROMPT, TIMEOUT))
tn.write("echo bar8" + NEWLINE)
printRead(tn.read_until(TELNET_PROMPT, TIMEOUT))
tn.write("echo bar9" + NEWLINE)
printRead(tn.read_until(TELNET_PROMPT, TIMEOUT))

# Closing the connextion
tn.write("exit" + NEWLINE)
tn.close()
-------------------- End of script --------------------

The output looks like (command sent in read. Not included in the script
output.):
echo foo
echo foo
foo
C:\>

echo bar1
echo bar1
bar1
C:\>

echo bar2
echo bar2
bar2
C:\>

echo bar3
echo bar3
bar3
C:\>

echo bar4
echo bar4
bar4
C:\>

echo bar5
echo bar5
bar5
C:\>

echo bar6
echo bar6
bar6
C:\>

echo bar7     <----- From here read_until() is freezing forever without a
TIMEOUT
C:\>

echo bar8 echo foo
foo
bar1
bar1
bar1
bar1


echo bar9
---------------   End of output -----------------

It not related to the number of command sent. If your replace one of the
firsts "echo bar" by "dir", you'll get the error immediatly. It seems to be
related to the number of line generated by Telnet.

Anybody know why? How to correct this?

Thanks.

Yannick




From cjw at sympatico.ca  Wed Aug  4 15:51:27 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 15:51:27 -0400
Subject: I got it! How to force a single number to be a tuple
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1140.1091637138.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1140.1091637138.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <41113E3F.2050506@sympatico.ca>



Jinming Xu wrote:
> Sorry for the previous message. It's really a simple question and I have 
> solved it myself.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jinming
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Folks,
> 
> I have a number sequence, which is put into a tuple like this:
> 
> y=2, 3.0, 4.5
> 
> I can manipulate the sequence as a tuple when it has more than 1 number. 
> But when the sequence has only 1 number, like
> 
> y=2
> 
> I have trouble to manipulate it as a tuple.  I guess there must be a way 
> to forece a single number to be a tuple. Could anyone please tell me that?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jinming
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Discover the best of the best at MSN Luxury Living. http://lexus.msn.com/
> 
Maybe something like:
[Dbg]>>> y= 6
[Dbg]>>> if not isinstance(x, (tp.ListType, tp.TupleType)):
[Dbg]... 	y= (y, )
[Dbg]... 	
[Dbg]>>> print y
(6,)
[Dbg]>>>
Colin W.



From max at alcyone.com  Fri Aug  6 16:25:37 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 13:25:37 -0700
Subject: Killing children
References: <87smb0w4ln.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
	<mailman.1297.1091814690.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<87d624vxt2.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
Message-ID: <4113E941.862D285F@alcyone.com>

Laura Conrad wrote:

> I used to think that when I first started using UNIX in the mid 80's.
> But I am now a hardened child-killer.

I bet you even let them turn into zombies before you kill them!  You
animal!

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ To be adult is to be alone.
    -- Jean Rostand


From P at draigBrady.com  Mon Aug 16 06:48:45 2004
From: P at draigBrady.com (P at draigBrady.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:48:45 +0100
Subject: reading shell output in parallel
In-Reply-To: <e3805b94.0408132029.3da41729@posting.google.com>
References: <e3805b94.0408132029.3da41729@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <4120910D.1080604@draigBrady.com>

Steve wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm pretty new to python.  I am trying to write a simple application
> that can read the stdout output from a command in linux.  I've tried
> using x = commands.getstatusoutput() but this only gives back the
> output in x after finished executing.  I would like to read the
> contents as it is being shown on the screen and then send parts of
> this info over a simple client/server setup.  I have the client/server
> part set up already.
> 
> Can anyone suggest a simple way to do this?  
> 
> Thanks for your help, I appreciate it.

Better support is being added for this.
In the meantime you could use this:
http://www.pixelbeat.org/libs/subProcess.py
With this you specify the timeout in seconds
so you would update client every 1 second rather
than every read (around 4K) which may or
may not be what you want.

Usage is like:

import subProcess
process = subProcess.subProcess("your shell command")
while process.read(1):
     handle(process.outdata, process.errdata)
del(process)

P?draig.


From dave at pythonapocrypha.com  Fri Aug 13 10:56:47 2004
From: dave at pythonapocrypha.com (Dave Brueck)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 08:56:47 -0600
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
In-Reply-To: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <411CD6AF.2030300@pythonapocrypha.com>

beliavsky at aol.com wrote:

> One of the most commmon reasons programmers cite for not trying Python
> is that indentation determines the program flow -- they think its
> weird.

Yes, that is commonly cited. From the programmer's perspective, 
indentation implies program flow in nearly *all* modern languages. The 
difference is that in Python the compiler believes you.

> I think programmers who actually try Python adapt quickly and
> do not find the indentation rules to be a problem.

Yep!

> I wonder if there is a way to remove this initial barrier.

I sure hope not... if someone can't accept that there might be value in 
it being different than what they're used to (so much so that they're 
unwilling even to give it a try), then the indentation is only the first 
of many things that will give them problems.

In that sense it's really useful - maybe it weeds out people who 
wouldn't be happy in Python yet anyway <0.5 wink>.

-Dave


From jbors at mail.ru  Thu Aug  5 13:55:23 2004
From: jbors at mail.ru (Dmitry Borisov)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 21:55:23 +0400
Subject: AVI I/O
In-Reply-To: <411272ec$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
Message-ID: <E1BsmSZ-000La7-00.jbors-mail-ru@f9.mail.ru>

> 
> ziaran wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I want to use Python for Image proccessing.
> I need the following capabilities:
> 
> 1. To be able to read and WRITE an AVI file frame by frame.
> 2. To be able to access each fram as a simple matrix.
> 
> I tried to search for that in google but could not find something 
> intuitive and simple.
> 
> The matrices part is important since iamge processing is done through 
>  matrices manipulation.
>  
> MATLAB is an example of a tool with scripting capabilities in which you 
> can do that in a simple way.
>  
> Is Python adequate for that?
> 

You can use pymedia to do that( http://pymedia.sourceforge.net )
ATM writing of avi files is not supported( mpeg only ), however you can do a simple fix for that if you're interested.

The way it works is it parses AVI file, gives you frames( audio, video, text ) and then you can decode video into YUV frames and convert it into the regular BMP image as string which I suppose you meant by "matrix".

Dmitry/



From dave at pythonapocrypha.com  Tue Aug  3 16:24:15 2004
From: dave at pythonapocrypha.com (Dave Brueck)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 14:24:15 -0600
Subject: simple Thread question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408031557360.11453-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
References: <b8001e9f.0408031151.4f617c6@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408031557360.11453-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <410FF46F.30708@pythonapocrypha.com>

Christopher T King wrote:

> On 3 Aug 2004, adeger wrote:
> 
> 
>>Having trouble with my first forays into threads.  Basically, the
>>threads don't seem to be working in parallel (or you might say are
>>blocking).  I've boiled my problems to the following short code block
>>and ensuing output.  Seems like the output should be all interleaved
>>and of course it's not.  Running Python 2.2 from ActiveState on
>>Windows XP (also doesn't work on Windows 2000).
> 
> The Python interpreter isn't too thread-friendly.  Because it's not 
> re-entrant, it has to make use of a Global Interpreter Lock in order to 
> keep internal structures from getting mangled.  This lock only allows one 
> thread to access the interpreter at a time, and switches threads every 
> hundred or so bytecodes.  The likely cause of your problem is that your 
> loops don't reach this switching threshold -- try using xrange(100) or 
> higher.

Er... you're jumping the gun a bit - no need to scare the OP away from 
threads with all these details about the GIL when the problem was simply 
that the threads were never started.

[snip]
> Because of the former property, another thing you can try is 
> inserting a time.sleep(.1) inside of each loop

Uh, did you read his code before responding? (hint: he's already doing 
that) :)

-Dave


From eurleif at ecritters.biz  Sat Aug 21 16:29:21 2004
From: eurleif at ecritters.biz (Leif K-Brooks)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:29:21 -0400
Subject: Why are strings immutable?
In-Reply-To: <10ieqt67kf3139c@news.supernews.com>
References: <chzVc.288437$a24.71659@attbi_s03>
	<10ieqt67kf3139c@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <2oppelFdg3e7U2@uni-berlin.de>

John Roth wrote:
> That said, it would be useful to have a
> string buffer object that could be changed.

What about StringIO?


From Domoran at yahoo.de  Wed Aug 11 12:58:52 2004
From: Domoran at yahoo.de (Mathias Mamsch)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 18:58:52 +0200
Subject: sleep does not return
Message-ID: <cfdj8k$g14$1@fuerst.cs.uni-magdeburg.de>

Hi all, I got a problem with writing a python extension module which
launches a bunch of C threads (currently under windows). The module launches
a complete speech recognition engine in a new thread and whenever the
recognizer recognizes a word a python callback function should be launched.

My Problem now is, after dealing with the ThreadState documentation, that in
the python test code the interpreter does not return from a time.sleep call
... My guess is I messed around with the ThreadStates so I post some code.

please have a look at the thread specific parts of the code, and tell me how
to solve the problem properly ...
Where do I have to look for the error, what could be the reason why sleep
does not return?

Thanks in advance, greetings
   Mathias Mamsch

The Python test code first, then relevant C code :

------ python code ---------

import idll        # this is my module ....
import time

def Test(s):        # this function gets called from the idll C++ code ...
    print "CALLBACK: ", s

idll.SetCallback(Test)    # this works ...
idll.StartRecognizer(1)   # this works too ....
time.sleep(0.1)    # and here it sleeps forever
----------------------

---------- C++ Code of the Function which gets called from some c++ thread
of the recognizer -----
---------- It should call the python function in the "Callback" variable of
the module ---------

static int CHandleFunction ()
{
    // ... some vars left out
    PyThreadState* tstate, *tsave;

    // Create a new State for the Call ...
    tstate = PyThreadState_New(mis);      // mis is saved in the init
(initidll) function
    PyEval_AcquireLock();    // Lock the GIL
    tsave = PyThreadState_Swap(tstate);   // Swap to the new State

    Func = ...  // Here I get the Callback from the variable

    result = PyEval_CallObject(Func, PString);   // Call the callback
function ... ignore PString ...

    // ... Here I DecRef    Func, result and some others ...

    PyThreadState_Swap(tsave);        // swap back the state
    PyThreadState_Delete(tstate);    // delete new state
    PyEval_ReleaseLock(); // and release the lock

    return 0;
}

// the init function ...
PyMODINIT_FUNC initidll(void)
{
    PyEval_InitThreads();  // initialize the Threads module if not done yet
...

    Module = Py_InitModule("idll", SpamMethods);

    mts = PyThreadState_Get(); mis = mts->interp; // Try to get the main
interpreter state ...

    Py_INCREF(Py_None);
    PyModule_AddObject(Module, "Callback", Py_None);

    PyEval_ReleaseLock();
}




From jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl  Sat Aug  7 09:50:24 2004
From: jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl (Jarek Zgoda)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 13:50:24 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Questions about parsing XML
References: <%T4Rc.150$Iv.46@trndny03>
Message-ID: <cf2mn0$gqn$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>

Kyle Root <kyleroot at gmail.com> pisze:

> I'm writing a practice program that parses an xml config file, at the 
> moment I'm using expat.  However I don't like some of it's behaviors. 
> For example ParseFile() will parse the *entire* file and I don't want to 
> do that.  I would like to be able to tell it to find such and such a tag 
> and return the cdata it contains, is this at all possible?  If it is how 
> would I handle optional tags?

libxml2 (http://www.xmlsoft.org/) has excellent support for XPath, F.
Lundh's ElementTree also supports some XPath expressions, although it is
built on expat and needs to parse whole XML document.

-- 
Jarek Zgoda
http://jpa.berlios.de/


From heikowu at ceosg.de  Wed Aug 11 14:56:27 2004
From: heikowu at ceosg.de (Heiko Wundram)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 20:56:27 +0200
Subject: rsa implementation question
In-Reply-To: <200408111920.58037.heikowu@ceosg.de>
References: <1092200894.4119a9beb1978@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
	<5GkSc.124$O72.121@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>
	<200408111920.58037.heikowu@ceosg.de>
Message-ID: <200408112056.27767.heikowu@ceosg.de>

Am Mittwoch, 11. August 2004 19:20 schrieb Heiko Wundram:
> def pad_for_rsa_encrypt(data,algo,n):
> 	retv = [data]
> 	strlen = len(data)
> 	nlen = log2(n)/8
> 	while strlen < nlen-3:
> 		data.append(<randomchars>)
> 		nlen -= len(<randomchars>)
> 	data.append(chr(algo))
> 	data.append(struct.pack("!H",strlen))
> 	return "".join(data)

Whoops, replace data.append by retv.append in that whole block...

Heiko.


From eldiener at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 10 21:00:18 2004
From: eldiener at earthlink.net (Edward Diener)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 01:00:18 GMT
Subject: Static method object not callable
Message-ID: <CceSc.10654$nx2.3040@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>

This simple code example gives me the message, "TypeError: 'staticmethod'
object is not callable".

class X(object):
  def Y(x):
    print x
  Y = staticmethod(Y)
  ad = { 1 : Y }
  def Z(self):
    self.ad[1](3)
x = X()
x.Z()
print "Done."

I know there must be a way to have a class attribute reference a static
method, and then call that static method through the reference, so if anyone
can correct this it would be appreciated.





From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 22:56:16 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:56:16 -0700
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
In-Reply-To: <41215667$1_1@127.0.0.1>
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<RGwTc.37687$js3.13758840@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<m34qn2n2du.fsf@g2ctech.com> <41214271_1@127.0.0.1>
	<roy-70FF06.19425116082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<41215667$1_1@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <10i2st1h94pqm2d@corp.supernews.com>

beliavsky at aol.com wrote:

>You may want to exit a nested loop when testing if a condition involving
>several variables is met, such as searching for a zero of a multivariate
>function. 
>
>In Python you can print i,j,k and exit() when m == 0, but in a larger program
>you may want more control.
>  
>

In this case, I can see several Pythonic ways of doing this.

One would be to use an exception.  While exceptions are not considered 
good control structures in other languages, they *are* considered 
acceptable (and even desirable) in Python.

Another way would be to wrap the nested loops inside a function, and 
simply return the appropriate triple from that function as soon as you 
find it.

An improvement on that would be to replace your return statement with a 
yield.  Suddenly you've got a generator that'll find a whole series of 
Pythagorean triples!

def pyth_triple(max):
    max += 1   # to simplify range() calls later
    for i in range(1,max):
        for j in range(1,max):
            ij = i**2 + j**2
            for k in range(1,max):
                m = ij - k**2
                if m == 0:
                    yield (i, j, k)

for triple in pyth_triple(10):
    print triple
(3, 4, 5)
(4, 3, 5)
(6, 8, 10)
(8, 6, 10)

For my money, that's cleaner/clearer than the Fortran version.

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From noone at here.com  Fri Aug 27 08:03:12 2004
From: noone at here.com (M. Clift)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:03:12 +0100
Subject: Thanks Harry
References: <cgi2qq$rvp$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <cgi3ev$g6k$1@online.de>
	<cgi5vc$m52$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<mailman.2391.1093473637.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgj95i$pl8$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<cgjk1q$1o4$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <1q8002-nal.ln1@suse.zobbo.org>
	<cgknhe$pg3$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<xqxbrgyt2ew.fsf@cola2.ca.boeing.com>
Message-ID: <cgn7ru$v57$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>

Hi,

Thanks for the link.

M




From jmfbahciv at aol.com  Sat Aug 28 05:38:57 2004
From: jmfbahciv at aol.com (jmfbahciv at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 04 09:38:57 GMT
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<776e0325.0408260433.449660c8@posting.google.com>
	<412dfc1c$0$65599$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<86hdqpriww.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<412e199e$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<jdoherty-2708041631070001@192.168.2.178>
Message-ID: <4130654c$0$19703$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>

In article <jdoherty-2708041631070001 at 192.168.2.178>,
   jdoherty at nowhere.null.not (John Doherty) wrote:
>In article <412e199e$0$8076$a1866201 at newsreader.visi.com>, Grant Edwards
><grante at visi.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2004-08-26, Randal L. Schwartz <merlyn at stonehenge.com> wrote:
>> > *** post for FREE via your newsreader at post.newsfeed.com ***
>> >
>> >>>>>> "Grant" == Grant Edwards <grante at visi.com> writes:
>> >
>> >Grant>    "Guido said it, that settles it, but we're going to discuss
>> >Grant>     it endlessly and and vote on it using six or seven
>> >Grant>     different voting algorithms anyway.  Then we'll argue about
>> >Grant>     the voting algorithms."
>> >
>> > Are the voting algorithms indented consistently? That's a
>> > necessity, correct?
>> 
>> Of course, but are they consistently indented using tabs or
>> spaces?
>
>AND HOW MANY SPACES PER TAB STOP?

Eight.  Now talk about indenting skip returns...that one
required blood transfusions.  [emoticon looks at list of n.g.]
I guess not many will understand.

/BAH


Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.


From harry.g.george at boeing.com  Fri Aug 20 12:31:36 2004
From: harry.g.george at boeing.com (Harry George)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:31:36 GMT
Subject: WSDL/SOAP/XML-RPC HELP
References: <cg52h2$f14$2@bagan.srce.hr>
Message-ID: <xqxd61lwz2v.fsf@cola2.ca.boeing.com>

Tomislav Lepusic <lepi--REMOVE-THIS-FROM-HERE at fly.srk.fer.hr> writes:

> Hello,
> 
> I don't know if this is the right group (I'm more in Perl, know
> nothing about Python), so if you can help me thanks, if not, sorry to
> bother you.
> 
> 
> I'm working on my student project and I'm totally lost and don't have
> any idea how to continue, and the deadline is 1.9.2004. Please help,
> 'couse i'm loosing myself in this XML/SOAP/RPC/WSDL things......
> 
> A little discription.
> I have to define and make something like virtual driver for serial
> port (RS232), only it isn't really a driver. The server has to be on
> Linux box (physical port(s) is/are there), and the other side (client)
> is not inportant. It is not important what is connected on serial
> port. Also, there is no need to work on any kind of drivers on Windows
> or something, becouse that is not the point. I have to make an
> universal way to send/recive/control serial port on that server
> computer from anywhere. I know how to program for serial port on Linux
> (in C), and I have made some progress there. That low-level programing
> isn't the problem. The problem is how to make it work over the net, so
> that someone who wants to write a program on Windows or Mac can use
> something universal to access it (like XML). I HAVE TO USE XML-RPC or
> SOAP or WSDL or something like that. The problem is that I don't know
> how to use those technologies. I read some tutorials, guides on
> XML-RPC, SOAP and WSDL, and I'm totally lost now.
> BTW, I was planning to use Perl becouse I know something about it. (I
> don't know Java)
> 
> So, if you can help me in any way (advice, similar example or
> something), please do. This is very important to me. I forget,
> everything must be secure (SSL or something).
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Tom

1. Many of us spent time in perl-land, and feel the move to python is
   worth your while, especially if you are currently confused.  Python
   is an excellent environment ofr learning new problem spaces, even if you
   later implement in other languages.

2. To learn more about XML, there are zilions of books.  I find
   E.R. Harold's "XML Bible", IDG Books to be useful -- enough
   examples to get going, but not so much detail you get lost.  You
   still have to visit the specs at: 
   http://xml.coverpages.org/xml.html
   http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210.html

   You probably don't need to know this to use XMPRPC.  Just follow
   the examples.  For SOAP, you probably do need a good sense of XML
   and XSchemas.

3. To learn more about SOAP/WSDL, see James Snell et al "Programming
   Web Services with SOAP", O'Reilly, 2002.  There are enough examples
   to get the feel for it.  If you are working in python, see
   http://pywebsvcs.sourceforge.net/

4. In the opinion of many sensible people, SOAP/WSDL is a monster that
   started as an MS .COM extension of XMLRPC and got totally out of
   control.  Or more to the point, got out of the control of standards
   efforts to "play well with others", and got into the control of
   corporations seeking a new mechanism for proprietary lockin.

5. XMLRPC is the quick/cheap way to get web services.  In Python it is
   pretty straightforward.  See
   http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/XmlRpc

6. Assuming you are new to programming as well as XML/SOAP/WSDL, here
   are some std approaches to learning new problem domains:

5.1. Do a literature search, get tutorials, ask for help -- you are
     doing this.

5.2. Setup a small testbed to learn the mechanisms.  Typically start
     with a known good source or server, and read/parse/process that.
     Then learn to write/generate/serve.  In this case, you should
     probably follow the XMPRPC example above.  This is NOT your
     actual classroom exercise -- it is just a learning environment.
     Once you understand the mechanisms, you can architect and develop
     your project.  You can even grow them side-by-side (learn some
     more, then code some more, etc.)

5.3. In a system with several interacting parts (sounds like your
     exercise), the biggest problem is system integration.  This can
     be a nightmare if you've left it to the last phase.  Instead, get
     the whole thing connected with minimal functionality right from
     the start.  E.g., a simple query at one end gets to the other end
     and is acknowledged.  Build an automated regression test process
     around this (ask when you get to this point in python).  Then add
     functionality feature by feature, testing as you go.



-- 
harry.g.george at boeing.com
6-6M21 BCA CompArch Design Engineering
Phone: (425) 342-0007


From siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk  Fri Aug 20 08:20:07 2004
From: siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk (Sion Arrowsmith)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 13:20:07 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Fmo*DSxsq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

Paul McGuire <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> wrote:
>The significant alternatives have been listed on the Python wiki at
>http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators .

C2 C2 J2

I'm really not sure what I don't like about the @ syntax. Most of
the time it's the idea that a statement at a given indentation level
affects *just* the next suite, not the rest of the file. Then I look
at the J options (other than J1) which are doing much the same thing
and seem reasonable (if not my first choice), and think maybe it's
the line-noise effect of the "@". But decorators aren't something I
can see myself making much (if any) use of, so I'll live with
whatever they turn out as.

-- 
\S -- siona at chiark.greenend.org.uk -- http://www.chaos.org.uk/~sion/
  ___  |  "Frankly I have no feelings towards penguins one way or the other"
  \X/  |    -- Arthur C. Clarke
   her nu become? se bera eadward ofdun hl?ddre heafdes b?ce bump bump bump


From gabor at z10n.net  Mon Aug  9 11:36:02 2004
From: gabor at z10n.net (gabor farkas)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 17:36:02 +0200
Subject: IronPython-0.6 is now available!
In-Reply-To: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1092065762.9279.14.camel@dubb>

On Wed, 2004-07-28 at 23:53, Neuruss wrote:
> IronPython is currently at a pre-alpha stage suitable for
> experimentation but not for serious development work.
> 
> http://www.ironpython.com

what i wonder is:


1. class libraries..what class libraries should an ironpython developer
use?
the (c)python ones? the dot-net ones?
so ironPython imho does not mean that now we can run our python programs
in dot-net. it means that if someone wants to write a program using
dot-net libraries, he can now use python...

and..well...what i like in python is not just the language syntax. i
also like the way the python libraries are written, that they are very
easy to use and so on.

so for me a python language which runs on the dot-net classes is not
that much interesting..(unless i need to access dot-net classes).
and also... python is nice, but at the point when you will want to write
a class that can be used from other dot-net languages, you will have to
make it dot-net compliant, so you will have to make it statically typed
(i am not sure that i am using the correct terminology here. what i mean
that you will have to specify the types of the variables and function
return values and so on).

the other aspect are for example binginds...

for example GTK.

there is the pyGTK project.
but there is also the gtk# project.

so imagine that i want to create a program using python+gtk. what should
i use? ironPython + gtk#? (c)python + pygtk?
and to look a little bit into the future: should the pygtk devels switch
to gtk# instead? ;)

i don't know what's the good answer...i am just thinking....

yes...microsoft made the dot-net thing cross-language, but the class
library was defined/specified imho in a way with is mostly suited only
for java-like languages...


gabor



From pythongnome at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 17 08:37:41 2004
From: pythongnome at hotmail.com (Lucas Raab)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 12:37:41 GMT
Subject: How big can a Python program be?
References: <903b3fba.0408170333.49ce3944@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <p_mUc.159$2L3.33@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>

As many as our tiny, little minds can string together!! :->

<vronskij at post.sk> wrote in message
news:903b3fba.0408170333.49ce3944 at posting.google.com...
> Hi,
>
> A C program can be hundreds of thousands lines of code big.
> C++ millions.
>
> How about Python?
>
> Suppose , you are a sole programmer (lonewolf). How many lines can one
handle?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> jan bodnar




From pit.grinja at gmx.de  Fri Aug 27 12:28:53 2004
From: pit.grinja at gmx.de (Piet)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 09:28:53 -0700
Subject: mySQLdb
References: <1093558526.705789@seven.kulnet.kuleuven.ac.be>
Message-ID: <39cbe663.0408270828.6065309d@posting.google.com>

Hi Johan,
I am afraid that there is no simple answer to your (very broad)
question. However, that doesn?t mean that the idea behind getting data
from python into a MySql database is inherently difficult. It is just
not a single step.
As Sibylle pointed out, subclassing MySQLdb is not possible. From what
I have understood so far, this module is more or less an interface
that you can use to type SQL commands. That is, IMHO this module is of
very limited use when you are not familiar with the mysql syntax. The
second thing that you have to know (which is a prerequisite for
profiting from the SQL statements) that you are familiar in general
with the idea of relational databases.
When these conditions are fulfilled, everything is quite ease. Lets us
assume that you have a table named "persons" with the columns
"firstname" and "lastname" and a dictionary "people" with the content
{"Johan":"Potums";"Pit":"Grinja"} and you want to get that data in the
database, then you would make a connection to the database and create
a cursor as  follows:
server = MySQLdb.connect()
cursor = server.cursor
for name in {"Johan":"Potums";"Pit":"Grinja"}.keys():
  cursor.execute("INSERT into persons (name,vorname) "+ name + ","
+people[name])
or something like that.
Depending on where you start, it can take some time to get used to
these concepts, but believe me, it is worth it!
Best wishes

Peter


From no_sp at m_please.cc  Thu Aug  5 07:20:52 2004
From: no_sp at m_please.cc (Mathias)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 13:20:52 +0200
Subject: Q: scipy.xplt.subplot
Message-ID: <cet56k$dgk$1@lnews.rz.hu-berlin.de>

Hi all,

I'd like to display a number of pictures with xplt.imagesc() in the same 
window using xplt.subplot()
Now I expected 3 or 4 parameters in subplot():
  -total # of plots in X dir.
  -total # of plots in Y dir.
  -number or coordinates of current plot
However, there seem to be only Numy and Numx. Documentation on this 
function is ...well... scarce ;)

Thanks for help,
    Mathias



From michele.simionato at gmail.com  Sat Aug  7 01:20:44 2004
From: michele.simionato at gmail.com (Michele Simionato)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 22:20:44 -0700
Subject: elements of decorator syntax suggestions
References: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1298.1091815362.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4edc17eb.0408062120.2c62ab14@posting.google.com>

Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1298.1091815362.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> This is the biggy, it seems. Current (as of a couple of hours ago) 
> discussions on python-dev are discussing other alternatives instead
> of @, that will hopefully make it easier for IPython or Leo to cope 
> for now (but note that in the future, some other use for @ might be
> found, so anyone relying on it at the moment might want to think 
> about that). One current suggestion is to use the | character, instead.
>
Aha! These are good news!!
I like the current proposal better than the list syntax (too many parens 
and commas) *except* for the "@". The "@" is terrible! But fortunately
we have plenty of alternative punctuation to choose upon: the colon,
the dot, the "|", even the caret, the tilde, etc. All stuff which is
already in current Python. At the moment I like this:

- sincronyzed
- classmethod
def f(cls, *args):
   pass

                                  Michele Simionato


From cousinstanley at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 25 02:46:31 2004
From: cousinstanley at hotmail.com (Cousin Stanley)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 06:46:31 GMT
Subject: Linux :  kdialog
Message-ID: <2p2qu7Fftl1rU1@uni-berlin.de>

  I saw a reference yesterday while reading a Linux news group
  to using  kdialog  in a bash shell script, so I decided to
  try it from Python .... 
    
    import os

    pipe_in = os.popen( "kdialog --inputbox 'Guido who ?' " )

    reply   = '"' + pipe_in.readline() + '"'

    msg_box = os.system( 'kdialog --msgbox ' + reply )
    

  This seems to be a fairly easy method 
  for some basic Python GUI programming in Linux
  without digging too deeply into Qt or KDE docs .... 
  
  kdialog --help      # for a list of other options        


-- 
Cousin Stanley
Human Being
Phoenix, Arizona


From tismer at stackless.com  Mon Aug  9 09:41:12 2004
From: tismer at stackless.com (Christian Tismer)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 15:41:12 +0200
Subject: Find out the file name of a module from inside the module?
In-Reply-To: <cf7u7d$npu$1@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <cf7u7d$npu$1@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Message-ID: <41177EF8.2080406@stackless.com>

Andreas Neudecker wrote:

> Hi.
> 
> I know you can read the filename of a program as sys.argv[0]. But what 
> about modules? Is there a similar way to find out the file name of a 
> module (called by some other module or program) from inside this module?

If your modules knows that it is a module, it can inspect its
__file__ attribute.
You can find out whether you have been imported by testing
whether there is a __file__ attribute, otherwise you are
probably executed, and there is no name available.

try:
     fname = __file__
except NameError:
     fname = "?"

In cases where you absolutely need a file name, and if you know
that you are also used as a module, you can of course import
yourself, in order to get the file name. This implies the need
to know your module name, which doesn't make things so much better:

# assuming this is MyModule
import MyModule
fname = MyModule.__file__
del MyModule

Or even shorter:

from MyModule import __file__ as fname

ciao - chris
-- 
Christian Tismer             :^)   <mailto:tismer at stackless.com>
Mission Impossible 5oftware  :     Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a     :    *Starship* http://starship.python.net/
14109 Berlin                 :     PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/
work +49 30 89 09 53 34  home +49 30 802 86 56  mobile +49 173 24 18 776
PGP 0x57F3BF04       9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619  305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04
      whom do you want to sponsor today?   http://www.stackless.com/



From jerf at jerf.org  Sun Aug 22 23:00:14 2004
From: jerf at jerf.org (Jeremy Bowers)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 03:00:14 GMT
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<278de0e.0408220636.3ee25f9d@posting.google.com>
	<mYGdnT5L6pqMJ7XcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
	<278de0e.0408221450.324e8178@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.22.23.00.08.383742@jerf.org>

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 15:50:21 -0700, Neuruss wrote:

>> Statements like that serve only to demonstrate the narrowness of
>> thought of the writer.
> 
> Excuse me?
> It seems that you're missing the point. 

With respect, I think it is you who are not understanding the objections
people are having to your writing. 

It is not this part that people are objecting:

> But you can't deny that
> for some problem domains, it is slow. Very slow.

It is this:

> but speed is critical

And bordering on the offensive to some people is this:

> and this is were all efforts should be concentrated.

as Python is an open-source and volunteer based this can be interpreted as
a command on how people should spend their freely offered time.

(In other words, all of *what* efforts? Are you helping to speed up Python
at all, or is this just rather strongly worded "suggestions" to other
people? Not a friendly approach.)

> So my intention when I started this thread, was to learn more about
> these projects, read other oppinions, get some news, etc... I didn't
> mean to start a a nonsense discussion!

Referring to other people's opinions as "nonsense" is also not a path to a
productive discussion, especially when the prime criterion for
"nonsensicalness" seems to be "an opinion different then mine".

(For one, many people at many times, not just in this thread, have
observed that "speed" is a meaningless term without a context, and that
Python is fast enough for many, many contexts. Repeated assertion that
there exist contexts where Python isn't fast enough does nothing to
disprove that point. If you don't understand why that is logically true, I
suggest thinking about it for a bit before replying yet again that there
exist contexts where Python isn't fast enough.)


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 17 19:28:42 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:28:42 -0400
Subject: Flython
In-Reply-To: <slrnci53hk.4hm.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
References: <slrnchq8lg.q3d.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
	<LIqdndvJz9MDoL3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<slrnci53hk.4hm.ramen@lackingtalent.com>
Message-ID: <RZ-dnc4U_fMxCb_cRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>

Dave Benjamin wrote:
> I have been writing
> ActionScript for two years now, and I am so sick and tired of its lack of
> useful data structures (like sets and dictionaries), god-awful
> error-checking (any bad message results in the "undefined" value, which
> accpets any message and returns the "undefined" value, and so on, until your
> error surfaces someplace completely different from where it was caused),
> lack of exceptions, lack of any standard for modularity... I could just go
> on and on. I'm currently maintaining a 10,000 line ActionScript program, and
> I would be so happy to rewrite it in Python right now.
> 
> And Python *is* magic. =)

So Dan was right on both counts. :-)   ('''Either Dave thinks it just 
can't be done, or he really, /really/ wants this compiler.''')

What version of the SWF format are you stuck writing to?  It
appears that even SWF 5 supports Javascript-style "dictionaries"
by using attributes on an object.  For example, "ActionEnumerate"
will let you iterate over all properties on an object ala the
Python "for k in dict".

As for exceptions, they were added in SWF 7, so I'm guessing you're
stuck somewhere prior to that.  Your life must really suck. ;-)

 > Peter Hansen wrote:
>>In any case, if this is a serious challenge, you'd better start
>>identifying the constraints and minimum requirements, as I'm
>>rather positive that it's possible to encode at least *one*
>>Python statement (print) into Flash bytecode which would
>>execute properly...  shall I demonstrate for, say, one pie?
> 
> Good point. I expect at least the full syntax as of Python 2.1, which means
> list comps but no "yield" or metaclasses or any fancy stuff like that.
> Perhaps one pie per Bagley's Shootout example, or maybe one pie per fully
> exposed Flash API (MovieClip, LocalConnection, etc.). I'm open to
> negotiation.

Gosh you set a high target.  Much as I like the taste of pie
(Mmmmm... piiiiie), and that cold clammy feeling as it drips down
inside my shirt, I don't think I'll be accepting the challenge any
time soon.  Not, at least, until I learn a lot more about compilers
than I currently know (hint, it involves the word "sweet" and "all").

One thing that would help would be a little direction from
someone in the know as to how Jython handles things that are
simply not available in Java bytecode.  For example, as far
as I know the main operators for basic primitive types in Java are
implemented with different bytecode instructions, while in
CPython things like "add" are implemented as a single bytecode
which happens to special case integers for performance, but
falls back to a dynamic lookup if the types being added are
not integers.

That looks to me like a bit of a conundrum.  To turn the Python
code into the appropriate Java bytecodes, wouldn't you have to
know the types of the data during compilation (as in static
data types)?  But Python doesn't have that (yet), so how is
it done?  Are all "adds" sent to some library routine which
is made available to all applications, and that routine then
handles the Python-style dynamic add operation?

In some ways, I think the SWF bytecode is even closer to Python
than Java's bytecode is, but I'm pretty sure that I couldn't
begin to imagine how one would target either of them...

-Peter


From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Aug 19 15:30:28 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:30:28 +0200
Subject: Unix applications in python: production install questions
In-Reply-To: <b68d2f19.0408190943.9cd4b85@posting.google.com>
References: <b68d2f19.0408190943.9cd4b85@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <4124ffcc$0$24852$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

Neil Zanella wrote:
> What is the best way to install a python application under Unix. Since python
> modules are platform independent I would guess these should be placed under an
> application specific directory under either /usr/share or /usr/local/share with
> a corresponding link to the main module(s) under /usr/bin or /usr/local/bin for
> user applications and /usr/sbin or /usr/local/sbin for system applications.
> Assuming this is done, should .pyc and .pyo files also be placed under
> /usr/share or /usr/local/share? 

That doesn't really work. You should install Python modules and byte
code into Python's site-packages.

> The question is
> whether the installer should install these files or not.
> Provided the installer is to install these files, then
> how can they be generated.

That depends on the installer technology, no? If it has
the notion of a postinstall action, then you should run
compileall.py on all directories where you have placed
Python source.

Doing so is a good idea, as it reduces the size of the
package, and possibly allows to support multiple Python
versions (which all have different byte code format) in
a single package.

Regards,
Martin


From christianzlong at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 16:20:02 2004
From: christianzlong at yahoo.com (Christian Long)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 13:20:02 -0700
Subject: Access to Oracle
References: <mailman.1856.1092831836.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <8847f370.0408201220.406a4ad0@posting.google.com>

Fri Aug-20-2004  13:53

Congrats on getting the green light on Python.  I had a blast writing
my Python/Oracle app (a warehouse receiving automation project using
Symbol 6846 handheld computers/scanners)

I am in the middle of testing an upgrade from Oracle 8 to Oracle 9i. 
DCOracle2 worked well with Oracle 8 (with one caveat - see below), and
after some finagling, DCOracle2 seems to be working well with Oracle
9i


My recommendation:
Test ALL of your complicated stored procedure calls before deciding to
use DCOracle2.  I had trouble with some stored procedure calls - it
failed when passing null on some IN/OUT parameters.  I wrote some
wrapper procedures to workaround the problem, but it was a bit of a
pain.



DCOracle2 upgrade to Oracle 9i  (9.2.0.3)
HP-UX B.11.00 U 9000/861/D270
Python 2.2.2


Oracle 8 installs 32-bit libraries in $ORACLE_HOME/lib and 64-bit
libraries in $ORACLE_HOME/lib64
Oracle 9i installs 64-bit libraries in $ORACLE_HOME/lib and 32-bit
libraries in $ORACLE_HOME/lib32

(At least, that was the way the DBA set it up on my box when he did
the upgrade)

This caused DCOracle2 to fail, since it was connecting to the 64-bit
version of libclntsh.sl instead of the 32-bit.  libclntsh.sl is the
Oracle client library.  On HP-UX, shared libraries have the sl
extension.  On other platforms the file is called libclntsh.so

$ORACLE_HOME/lib/libclntsh.sl: Mismatched ABI. 64-bit PA shared
library found in 32-bit link.

I changed the Makefiles to point to the lib32 folder, and got it to
work.



Here are the steps I used to get DCOracle2 working with Oracle 9i and
HP-UX 11.  I used the latest version as of 8/19/04, which is available
from Zope CVS here:
http://cvs.zope.org/Products/DCOracle2/DCOracle2.tar.gz?tarball=1.  

Note that I am not using Zope.  I'm just using DCOracle2 to connect my
application (written in Python) to Oracle 9i

Starting with the downloaded gzipped tarball, which I put in a
directory called /tmp/mra_depots

# Unpack and expand
gunzip DCOracle.tar.gz
tar -xvf DCOracle2.tar
cd DCOracle2

# Find and replace occurences of .so with .sl to match HP-UX
# naming conventions.  See README-HP-UX file included
# in the distribution.  Also, replace references to  
#  $ORACLE_HOME/lib with  $ORACLE_HOME/lib32
vi Makefile 
:%s/\.so/.sl/gc
:wq
vi src/testora
:%s/\.so/.sl/gc
:%s/\$ORACLE_HOME\/lib/$ORACLE_HOME\/lib32/gc
:wq
vi src/Setup.in.dco
:%s/\/lib/\/lib32/gc
:wq
vi proof/Makefile
:%s/\/lib/\/lib32/gc
:wq
vi setup.py
:%s/"lib"/"lib32"/gc
:wq

# Now, build the DCOracle adapter and move it to the Python
# folder.  You may need root privileges to move the 
# adapter to the Python folder.  NOTE: After the build, the
# original DCOracle2 folder contains another DCOracle2 folder.
# MOVE THE INNERMOST DCOracle2 folder, NOT THE OUTER ONE!
make
su
rm  -r /usr/local/lib/python2.2/DCOracle2  
mv /tmp/mra_depots/DCOracle2/DCOracle2 /usr/local/lib/python2.2
exit



Notes:

This is a vi replacement command to replace $ORACLE_HOME/lib with 
$ORACLE_HOME/lib32

:%s/\$ORACLE_HOME\/lib/$ORACLE_HOME\/lib32/gc


Breaking this vi command down for the benefit of vi virgins
		:   	enter command entry mode
		%  	search entire file
		s   	replace
		/	delimiter between 's' and search string
		\	escape character for dollar sign to follow
$ORACLE_HOME\/lib	search string, including escaped forward slash \/
(that's a \ and a / , not a V !)
		/	delimiter between search string and replacement string
$ORACLE_HOME\/lib32	replacement string (we only need to escape the
forward slash here)
		/	delimiter between replacement string and search options
		g	change every occurance in a line
		c	confirm changes

This will highlight each proposed change, and ask you to confirm. 
Type y and hit enter for each one.






"Greg Lindstrom" <greg.lindstrom at novasyshealth.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1856.1092831836.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> Greetings-
> 
> I am running Python 2.3.3 on HP-UX and would like to access an Oracle 9i
> database. Looking through the vaults, I see 4 or 5 modules that might work
> and was wondering if anyone is currently hitting Oracle and what are you
> using.  I get to build a new system from the ground up and the powers that
> be are allowing me to do it in Python.  I'm quite happy.
> 
> Thanks for your help,
> 
> --greg
> 
> Greg Lindstrom                                         (501) 975-4859
> NovaSys Health                  greg.lindstrom at novasyshealth.com
> 
> "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams"  W.W.
> 
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
> - - - -
> This email and any attachments to it are privileged and confidential and are
> intended solely for use of the individual or entity to which they are
> addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, any
> use, distribution, or copying of this communication, or disclosure of all or
> any part of its content to any other person, is strictly prohibited. If you
> have received this communication in error, please notify the sender by
> replying to this message and destroy this message and delete any copies held
> in your electronic files. Thank you.
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
> - - - -


From -$P-W$- at noctua.org.uk  Tue Aug 10 16:38:00 2004
From: -$P-W$- at noctua.org.uk (Paul Wright)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 21:38:00 +0100
Subject: Parsing broken HTML via Mozilla
References: <mailman.1413.1092080863.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnchich8.18u.-$P-W$-@pome.noctua.org.uk>

In article <mailman.1413.1092080863.5135.python-list at python.org>, Walter
D?rwald wrote:
> I'm trying to parse broken HTML with several Python tools.
> Unfortunately none of them work 100% reliable. Problems are e.g.
> nested comments, bare "&" in URLs and "<" in text (e.g. "if foo <
> bar") etc.

Not a Mozilla solution, but I hear good things about
http://www.crummy.com/software/BeautifulSoup/

-- 
Paul Wright | http://pobox.com/~pw201 | http://blog.noctua.org.uk/
Reply address is valid but discards mail with attachments: send plain text only


From __peter__ at web.de  Sun Aug 22 10:04:55 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 16:04:55 +0200
Subject: clear content of 'printed'
References: <cga6gd$17qo$1@news.uni-koblenz.de>
Message-ID: <cga967$dd4$02$1@news.t-online.com>

Christian Otteneuer wrote:

> Is there a possibility to do clear the content of 'printed' in python?
 
What is 'printed'? A string, a list, a dictionary, a StringIO instance... -
as long as we do not know what it is we cannot say how/whether it can be
cleared. It is common practice in Python to just forget about an old object
and create a new one, though:

for path in aList:
    printed = Printed()
    printed.fillWith("some text")
    container.writeToFile(path, printed)

Or was the 

print "some text"

statement for real and you are assigning to sys.stdout (generally a bad
idea)?

Please provide the complete source code or at least some more context.

Peter



From claird at lairds.us  Tue Aug 24 09:08:14 2004
From: claird at lairds.us (Cameron Laird)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:08:14 GMT
Subject: Dr. Dobb's Python-URL! - weekly Python news and links (Aug 23)
References: <cgdfku$svs$1@lairds.us>
	<mailman.2257.1093319591.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgeprt$s3k$04$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <68prv1-s8f.ln1@lairds.us>

In article <cgeprt$s3k$04$1 at news.t-online.com>,
Peter Otten  <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:
>Anthony Baxter wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:08:07 GMT, Peter Otten <python-url at phaseit.net>
>> wrote:
			.
			.
			.
>> ... just to correct the record - my efforts here have not been
>> primarily aimed at defending the pie-syntax, but instead aimed at
>> shaking out a decent response. I'm trying _very_ hard to make sure
			.
			.
			.
>I made no assumptions about your motives in the above snippet, so this is
>not a correction, strictly speaking. 
			.
			.
			.
>But even if I wanted, the formal constraints of the Python-URL make it hard
>to use it as a means of propaganda...
>
>Peter
>
>

However we taxonomize individual sentences, it's ALWAYS in
the spirit of "Python-URL!" to inspire more precision and 
clarification.  Peter's done tremendous work for many weeks
distilling megabytes of traffic into concise, accurate,
understandable descriptions.  Any help we get refining or
elaborating those descriptions is all to the good.


From http  Sun Aug 29 20:49:55 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 29 Aug 2004 17:49:55 -0700
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>
	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>
	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>
	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>
	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>
	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>
	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>
	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>
	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>
	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org> <e69d3ed2040
	<eppstein-55AD8F.13583829082004@news.service.uci.edu>
	<mailman.2587.1093825876.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <7xllfx5u18.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> writes:
> I believe that we should think of assignments to __xxx__ attributes as
> not being part of the function's body, but instead part of its
> declaration, just as we do with its docstring.
> 
>     def circum(diameter):
>         """This describe's foo."""
>         __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'
>         __version__ = '0.1'

That's fundamentally a pretty good idea, but conflicts with how we
currently use __xxx__ attributes:

   def fcn(self, x, y, r):
      ...

    class circle(shape):
       __init__ = fcn

should work about the same way as
 
    class circle(shape):
       def __init__(self, x, y, r):
          ...                   # same function as fcn above


From vincent_delft at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 22 10:36:04 2004
From: vincent_delft at yahoo.com (vincent_delft at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 16:36:04 +0200
Subject: zipfile module: problems with filename having non ascii
	characters
References: <4127a6d7$0$4090$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be>
	<mailman.2122.1093122795.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<41284ac0$0$3551$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be>
	<41285BBB.1050800@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <4128ae97$0$4128$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be>

"Martin v. L?wis" wrote:

> vincent_delft at yahoo.com wrote:
>> That limitation is only valid for zip files ?
> 
> It appears that WinZip and other tools interpret the file names in a
> zipfile in CP437. So to properly put non-ASCII file names into a
> zipfile, you need to convert them into CP437. If the file name
> contains a character which is not available in CP437, you cannot
> save the file in a zipfile (without renaming it).
> 

Thanks, with cp437 it rocks!!!!


> Not really a Unicode problem, but rather a problem that Unicode
> tries to solve.
> 
>> Is there an another "compression tool" that don't have such limitation
>> (tgz? , bz2? , ????
> 
> tar, traditionally, is also unaware of character sets. Single Unix 3
> (and I believe also earlier) ended the tar wars with the introduction
> of the pax utility, which does allow for specification of a character
> set in a pax file; among the supported character sets are ISO-8859-n,
> and UTF-8.

Thanks for the info.

> 
> J?rg Schilling's star(1) also uses UTF-8 for file names.
> 
> On the non-tar side of the world, WinRAR supports Unicode in archives.
> For compatibility, they also put a non-Unicode name into the archive,
> but the Unicode name, if present, is meant to take precedence.
> 

Thus, the most "portable" compression tool.

Thanks for those valuable remarks.

Vincent


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Aug 18 13:44:23 2004
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 13:44:23 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
Message-ID: <cg04hn$eq3$1@panix1.panix.com>

In article <4123874C.8000304 at chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>,
Robin Becker  <robin at reportlab.com> wrote:
>
> [...]

Not too many late-30s, I guess.  I've been programming Python for six
years, started at nine years old with BASIC.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen.  Every command is a
koan.  Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.  You
discover truth everytime you use it."  --reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com


From snail at objmedia.demon.co.uk  Fri Aug 27 14:10:37 2004
From: snail at objmedia.demon.co.uk (Stephen Kellett)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:10:37 +0100
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.SOL.4.58.0408251722510.568@zaphod.rite-group.com>
	<kw1xhujrt1.fsf@merced.netfonds.no>
Message-ID: <VecqaPFdk3LBFwVF@objmedia.demon.co.uk>

In message <kw1xhujrt1.fsf at merced.netfonds.no>, Espen Vestre 
<espen@*do-not-spam-me*.vestre.net> writes
>Great song, but their hard-hitting stuff is even better. For instance
>"Lisp in the Hills" or "Career of Eval".

They even provided your very own theme tune to red/black trees -
"The Red and the Black"
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information:        http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html


From ronaldoussoren at mac.com  Sat Aug  7 12:29:44 2004
From: ronaldoussoren at mac.com (Ronald Oussoren)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 18:29:44 +0200
Subject: decorators and multimethods
In-Reply-To: <4edc17eb.0408070742.664fa9c0@posting.google.com>
References: <4edc17eb.0408062340.71ab270f@posting.google.com>
	<4edc17eb.0408070742.664fa9c0@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <FDA4F85D-E88E-11D8-828E-000A95C77748@mac.com>


On 7-aug-04, at 17:42, Michele Simionato wrote:

>
> where I use "_" as a poor man anonymous function. I cannot reuse the 
> name
> "foo" now, since
>
> @foo.addmethod(...)
> def foo(..):
>  ....
>
> is really converted to
>
> def foo(..)
>  ...
>
> foo=foo.addmethod(...)(foo)

No it isn't. The decorators are called before the function is added to 
a namespace, e.g. it's more like:

def _():
	def foo(..):
		..
	return foo

foo = foo.addmethod(...)(_())

Ronald



From koko9991 at compuserve.de  Thu Aug 19 08:46:30 2004
From: koko9991 at compuserve.de (Konrad Koller)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:46:30 GMT
Subject: PyQt(Qt): unexpected scrollbars in QCanvasView
References: <411dcfd0.649442281@news.compuserve.de>
	<slrnchrq00.3tk.sholden@flexal.cs.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <41249ee6.346093812@news.compuserve.de>

>> For a card playing game I constructed a layout of 49 playing cards
>> (size of each: x=71, y=96) which are arranged in a 7X7 matrix side by
>> side. Accordingly the pysical size of the Canvas is x=71*7, y=96*7:
>>
>> in the main program:
>> canvas=QCanvas(497,672)
>>
>> class Board(QCanvasView):
>> 	def __init__(self,canvas,parent):
>> 		QCanvasView.__init__(self,canvas,parent)
>>
>> but QCanvasView produces a layout with scrollbars in both directions.
>> This is very annoying for the player because although the screen's
>> size is more than appropriate for a total layout only some of the
>> cards can be viewed without scrolling. The QScrollView documentation
>> states that as default QScrollView shows a scrollbar when the content
>> is too tall to fit and not else. What goes wrong?
>> I am using PyQt 3.11 and Qt 3.3.1 under Linux.

Sam Holden wrote:
>I would guess it is using the viewable size with the scrollbars to determine
>whether scrollbars are needed, rather than the size without them.
>If you know the scrollbars aren't needed you can manually turn them off:
>	self.setVScrollBarMode(QCanvasView.AlwaysOff)
>	self.setHScrollBarMode(QCanvasView.AlwaysOff)
>
Both scrollbars now have disappeared. All 7 columns can be viewed, but
not all 7 rows. This remains as an unexpected problem.
Konrad Koller


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Thu Aug  5 12:56:38 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 12:56:38 -0400
Subject: Confused about pep 318
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051249050.10473-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Anthony Baxter wrote:

> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/thread.html#45516
> was over a month earlier.

That thread reaches no consensus, other than, in his sole post in the 
thread, Guido stating "I would love to see an implementation of this 
idea."  Nothing about "this is going to be in 2.4a2, anybody vehemently 
opposed to it?"  Like I said, the go-ahead was given privately.

> In addition, the particular SF item for this
> http://www.python.org/sf/979728 wasn't exactly hidden.

Indeed; I'm surprised it isn't titled "Beware of the Leopard".



From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Mon Aug 16 11:46:12 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:46:12 -0400
Subject: Newbie question about file input
In-Reply-To: <cfqj3s$cti$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
References: <cfqj3s$cti$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408161136480.11457-100000@ccc3.wpi.edu>

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004, Aaron Deskins wrote:

> Basically every game starts with the [Event "..."] header and then the 
> information about the game is given.
> 
> My first attempt at the python script is:
> 
> #! /usr/bin/env python
> import string
> import sys
> zf=open('test.pgn','r')
> # games is number of games
> games = 0
> while 1:
>   line = zf.readline()
>   if line == '':
>     break
>   ls = line.split()
>   print ls[0]
>   if ls[0] == '[Event':
>    games+=1
> zf.close()
> print games
> 
> I'm having problems when the script reads a blank line from the pgn 
> file. I get the following error message:
>    IndexError: list index out of range
> The problem is that ls[0] does not exist when a blank line is read. What 
> would be the best way of fixing this?

The immediate fix is to check for newlines, in addition to blank strings:

     if line == '' or line =='\n':
         break

The not-so-immediate fix would be to skip the blank line check, and 
instead check the length of ls:

     if len(ls) and ls[0] == '[Event':

But perhaps a better fix would be to skip the split and use the 
str.startswith() method:

     if line.startswith('[Event'):

This won't fail in the case of a blank line, and will be somewhat faster 
than str.split().

There are, of course, even better fixes (such as using regexes or 
PyParsing), but they would likely be overkill unless you plan on 
extracting more data from the file (such as the name of the event).

Hope this helps.



From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 10 10:03:48 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:03:48 -0400
Subject: pro python paper
In-Reply-To: <3064b51d.0408100549.213dad5@posting.google.com>
References: <305aa162.0408091905.5bce8f9a@posting.google.com>
	<3064b51d.0408100549.213dad5@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <G4OdnUzh__NbSIXcRVn-uw@powergate.ca>

beliavsky at aol.com wrote:
> ccdetail at gmail.com (ccdetail) wrote in message news:<305aa162.0408091905.5bce8f9a at posting.google.com>...
> 
>>http://www.journyx.com/pdf/PythonAtAGlance.pdf
>>
>>the above paper is a response to some of our prospects complaints
>>
>>they were asking us why we use python
>>
>>thought you guys might be interested
>>
>>http://journyx.com/clf
> 
> I think the paper exaggerates the virtues of Python relative to other
> languages, reducing the credibility of the authors. 

I agree with this to some extent.

> The paragraph in the Python myths section
> 
> "It has no compiler to native code, which means Python programs run
> slower.  True, it does not compile. That does not mean, however, that
> Python programs run slower. If you are tracking the speed of quarks or
> landing the space shuttle, you might want to write in Assembly or some
> other very low-level language.  Other than that, a standard business
> application written in Python will run every bit as well as one
> written in any other language."
> 
> pretends that the main alternative to Python is Assembly, or some
> other
> "very low-level language". 

Actually, it does't really do that.  What it says clearly is that for
certain types of application (time-critical ones), Assembly or another
low level language would be a better alternative to Python.

This is not at all the same as the general statement "the main
alternative to Python is Assembly".


> Have the authors not heard of C++ (with the
> Standard Template Library) or Fortran 95 (with multidimensional arrays
> and associated intrinsic functions)?

I'm quite sure they have.  Does anyone really think of C++ or FORTRAN
for *time-critical* software (this is different than software where
performance is the ultimate goal, by the way).

> It is more honest and credible to admit that a Python program often is
> slower than one in a compiled language, but that reduced programming
> time in Python often outweighs this deficit.

That's true though.

-Peter


From gandalf at geochemsource.com  Tue Aug 31 09:13:23 2004
From: gandalf at geochemsource.com (Gandalf)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 15:13:23 +0200
Subject: has_method
Message-ID: <41347973.7080006@geochemsource.com>


  Hi All!

Does anyone knows how to tell if an object has a method with a given 
name? How can I access that method?

For attributes, it is easy:

class A(object):
    a = 12
    b = 'Python'

a = A()
a.__dict__.has_key('a')   # True
a.__dict__.has_key('b')   # True
a.__dict__.has_key('c')   # False

But it won't work for methods. Thanks in advance.

  Laci 2.0




From dougfort at dougfort.com  Fri Aug  6 09:15:27 2004
From: dougfort at dougfort.com (Doug Fort)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 13:15:27 GMT
Subject: 'Using is not None, may not always work'
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.06.13.15.28.336325@dougfort.com>

Hi,

Since I installed 2.4a2 I've been getting a warning from pychecker: Using
is not None, may not always work'. I thought 'is not None' was the right
thing to do. I've had problems with 'if not x:', because some objects
return False in this context.

-- 
Doug Fort, Consulting Programmer
http://www.dougfort.com



From ville at spammers.com  Thu Aug 12 08:08:15 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 15:08:15 +0300
Subject: [OT] Keyboard layout, was Re: PEP318
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<20040812090056.00001e31@titan> <cffdba$ko0$04$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <du7pt5w5zkg.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Peter" == Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> writes:

    Peter> Let me add that temporarily switching to an American
    Peter> keyboard layout (*) for programming helps with all of the
    Peter> following chars: @\[]{}|`.

US layout is indeed the only sensible way to program in languages
designed for US layouts, which pretty much includes most mainstream
languages.

If you are not man enough to learn Dvorak, that is ;-). I recently
switched over, and did some additional keymap tweaking like switching
'8'/'(' and ')'\'9' so that I won't need to press shift for
parens. Numbers like 8 and 9 are useless for coding - everything
beyond 0 and 1 implies a flawed design.

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From mwh at python.net  Mon Aug 23 10:43:42 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:43:42 GMT
Subject: how to tell if x is an instance of new class?
References: <mailman.1964.1092927963.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m3llg5kj8i.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Michal Vitecek <fuf at mageo.cz> writes:

>  hello,
> 
>  i'm (once again) fighting with python C API. i'm simply unable to
>  determine whether 'x' is an instance of new class or not.

The problem is that this question isn't terribly wll defined.  Why do
you want to know?

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  The ultimate laziness is not using Perl.  That saves you so much
  work you wouldn't believe it if you had never tried it.
                                        -- Erik Naggum, comp.lang.lisp


From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu  Mon Aug 16 21:04:13 2004
From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Daniel Yoo)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 01:04:13 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: mailman mailing list program
References: <PPidncd3ycQ1mbzcRVn-gg@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <cfrlid$1f8c$1@agate.berkeley.edu>

Carol Carrot <CarolCarrot at sofsof.net> wrote:

[exhasperated Mailman rant cut]


Hi Carol,

Your question isn't really related to Python: Python's just the
implementation language for Mailman.  A better bet is to ask your
question on "Mailman Users":

    http://list.org/lists.html

where you can get help from dozens of other long-suffering Mailman
administrators.


: I'm trying to get a header to get attached tot he email. it gets stripped
: from the email, whwere as the footer comes in as an attachment.
: all this is buried under "non-digest" options for some crazy reason.

Having a header is dependent on how messages are delivered.  In digest
mode, messages are bundled and delivered as a single message.  Sending
the same header, over and over in the bulk-message, would not be a
good idea.

So that's why there is a separate variable option that describes the
header for non-digest messages (msg_header), and one for digest
messages (digest_header).  I guess it might make sense to have a
separate "Header/Footer" configuration menu, but that's a user
interface issue.



: How do I get the header to work?

Did you update the 'msg_header' variable?


Please continue your questions on the 'Mailman Users' mailing list;
you should get better help from them.


Good luck to you!


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Sun Aug 22 14:37:01 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 18:37:01 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WE
	DONE?
References: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<t5idnRg0lMA7B7XcRVn-qA@comcast.com>
	<ifchi0hqmhpag5umuukest5v4f2e73hjud@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <hJ5Wc.8812$Jn5.5741@fe1.texas.rr.com>

"Arthur" <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote in message
news:ifchi0hqmhpag5umuukest5v4f2e73hjud at 4ax.com...
> On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 08:07:53 -0500, Doug Holton <insert at spam.here>
> wrote:
<snip>
>
> I think it should also be noted in the report of the voting results
> that the a vote for "no new syntax at this time" was specifically
> outlawed.
>
Arthur -

You should really direct this sentiment to Guido himself.  I think he's made
his mind pretty clear on python-dev that some form of decorator syntax is
coming, and that it's coming in 2.4.  All this voting process is doing is
trying to respond to his call for a unified alternative proposal.  I think
just about everyone who has had any part in this debate feels that just
about all of the relevant issues have been surfaced, and now it is time to
move forward with making some decisions.  Personally, I think this is why
Guido forced the issue by asking Anthony Baxter to go ahead and check in the
"@"-based syntax.  But that is his process and his choice - please forward
your comments on this to him.

As far as your comments re: the multivoting process, I'm sorry you felt
disenfranchised.  You should note that others took the initiative to add
their choices to the wiki page when they were not in the initial selection
set, and I think a vote of "No decorators, No decorators, No decorators"
would have made your point, at least amongst us at c.l.py.  But even if we
all rally behind "No decorators", I think the result will be that "@" syntax
will then prevail by default.

In any case, the polls are still "open" - should I put you down for "None of
the above" X 3 ?

-- Paul




From indigo at bitglue.com  Wed Aug 18 17:11:20 2004
From: indigo at bitglue.com (Phil Frost)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:11:20 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <2ohpksF94tajU3@uni-berlin.de>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<cfvi4r$bn7$1@news.tue.nl> <2ohpksF94tajU3@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <20040818211120.GA6522@unununium.org>

I work in a python company of 9 where the average age is probably 25.
I've been programming since I was 10 or so, first playing with basic on
a commodore 64 (old hardware by then) and then learning ia32 assembly and
working my way to higher level languages.

I never really thought programming was unpopular among young people, but
now that I think about it, the only person I've met in real life that
was a young programmer lives 1500km away, and we met on the internet, of
course.

Furthermore, it seems now the way to become a programmer is to learn VB
and write crude programs through high school, then go to college and
learn Java, then find a job in web development. I wonder what portion of
programmers these days have a real understanding of how the hardware
they manipulate works? From this thread so far it seems like such
knowledge is more common among Python programmers, which I find odd
since Python isn't exactly a low level language. Perhaps it's because no
one learns Python until becoming frustrated with 10 other languages?

On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 09:41:34PM +0200, Reinhold Birkenfeld wrote:
> Gerrit Muller wrote:
> > Most Python programmers I know are 40+. I am myself 47 (born in december 
> > 1956).
> > 
> > regards Gerrit
> > 
> > P.S.,
> > 
> > how many teeners are still programming? Most teeners I know build 
> > websites, but they don't program.
> 
> I certainly wouldn't call these shockingly horrible bunches of IE-tags
> thrown together with the intention of being regarded as "cool" a "website".
> 
> Reinhold, rant rant


From spam at no.thanks  Sun Aug 22 23:09:20 2004
From: spam at no.thanks (aum)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:09:20 +1200
Subject: ANN: Python MegaTypes
Message-ID: <BddWc.16666$N77.666071@news.xtra.co.nz>

Hi,

This is more of a pre-announcement actually.

I'm developing a module called 'megatypes', which wraps the
python builtin types such as 'str', 'int', 'long' into turbo-charged
equivalents.

A working version of what I've done so far, together with manual and 
examples, is at:

   http://www.freenet.org.nz/python/megatypes

Example tidbit:

   >>> s = Str("Hello, world")
   >>> s.dice(3)
   ['Hel', 'lo,', ' wo', 'rld']

If anyone likes the concept, and wants to inject creative ideas (and 
preferably code as well), please let me know, and I'll open up a 
Sourceforge project for it.

Email address - david at freenet dot org dot nz

Cheers
aum


From howard.stearns at charter.net  Sat Aug  7 09:12:21 2004
From: howard.stearns at charter.net (Howard Stearns)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 08:12:21 -0500
Subject: decorators and multimethods
In-Reply-To: <4edc17eb.0408062340.71ab270f@posting.google.com>
References: <4edc17eb.0408062340.71ab270f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <4114D535.5060701@charter.net>

Hey, that's pretty nice. I'll have to get some coffee and study this. What 
do I read about? I can't find anything about @ or 'decorator' in the 2.3 
documentation. What should I be looking for?

Michele Simionato wrote:
> Decorators can generate endless debate about syntax, but can also
> be put to better use ;)
> 
> Actually I was waiting for decorators to play a few tricks that were
> syntactically too ugly to be even imaginable for Python 2.3.
> 
> One trick is to use decorators to implement multimethods. A while ago
> Howard Stearns posted here a recipe to implement generic functions
> a.k.a multimethods.
> 
> I have not studied his recipe, so don't ask me how it works. All I
> did was to add an "addmethod" function and save his code in a module
> called genericfunctions.
> 
> Decorators allowed me to use the following syntax:
> 
> # BEGIN generic functions in Python, example
> # use code and examples from Howard Stearns
> 
> from genericfunctions import Generic_Function, addmethod
> 
> foo = Generic_Function()
> 
> @addmethod(object, object, object)
> def foo(_, x, y, z):
>     return 'default'
> 
> @addmethod(int, int, int)
> def foo(call_next, x, y, z): 
>     return 'all ints , ' + call_next(x, y, z)
> 
> @addmethod(object, object)
> def foo( _, x, y):
>     return 'just two'
> 
> print foo # the multimethod table as a dictionary
> print foo(1, 2, 'three') # => default
> print foo(1, 2, 3) # => all ints, default
> print foo(1, 'two')  #> just two
> print foo('oops') #=> genericfunctions.NoNextMethod error
> 
> # END generic functions in Python, example
> 
> Howard Stearns' code is posted here
> http://groups.google.it/groups?hl=it&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=40C3BC71.5050206%40charter.net&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dhoward%2Bstearns%2Bgroup:comp.lang.python.*%26hl%3Dit%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dcomp.lang.python.*%26selm%3D40C3BC71.5050206%2540charter.net%26rnum%3D1
> 
> I just added the following function:
> 
> import sys
> 
> def addmethod(*types):
>      """sys._getframe hack; works when the generic function is defined
>      in the globals namespace."""
>      caller_globs = sys._getframe(1).f_globals
>      def function2generic(f):
>           generic = caller_globs[f.func_name]
>           generic[types] = f
>           return generic
>      return function2generic
> 
> Decorators did all the rest ;) Just to add an use case I haven't
> seen before.
> 
>        Michele Simionato



From mj-usunto at tkb.pl  Wed Aug 18 10:05:34 2004
From: mj-usunto at tkb.pl (Marcin Jurczuk)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:05:34 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: favorite python web development tool?
References: <10i4nttktcvltdd@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <cfvnne$p2b$1@korweta.task.gda.pl>

On 2004-08-17, mike <ng01.spamguard at icewater.org> wrote:
> hi all -
>
>
> i'm fairly new to python, coming from a java servlet / velocity template 
> background.  i'm looking for a good python web development tool, and 
> hope to find some suggestions here.
>
I'm using SkunkWeb (skunkweb,sourceforge.net).
realy simple framework and very very fast :)


-- 
Marcin Jurczuk, NIC-HDL: MJ1679-RIPE


From apardon at forel.vub.ac.be  Tue Aug 17 07:40:36 2004
From: apardon at forel.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 11:40:36 GMT
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1637.1092428855.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<30260531.0408131853.18ec2446@posting.google.com>
	<LIqdnd7Jz9Mspr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<412040f8$0$8087$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<AuWdnUL93se81L3cRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <slrnci3rlk.k5.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>

Op 2004-08-16, Peter Hansen schreef <peter at engcorp.com>:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>> On 2004-08-16, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
>>>Please, *why* did it put you off?
>> Dunno, it just did.
>> 
>> It seems to me that you're asking for a rational explanation
>> for an emotional response.  It's like asking somebody "*why*
>> don't you like pickled beets?" The answer you get is "I just
>> don't." 
>
> Hmm... not for me.  The answer would be "because they
> taste like dirt",

That is not an rational explanation. You have just stated
that the taste is similar to an other taste you don't
like. Now give an explanation why you don't like the
taste of dirt.

> or "I hate purple", or "anything pickled
> sucks".

Hating purple and stating that anything pickled sucks
don't strike me a rational explanations.

> "I just don't" looks a lot like a cop-out.

How about: that is how my tongue and brain are wired.

-- 
Antoon Pardon


From russblau at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 12 09:30:58 2004
From: russblau at hotmail.com (Russell Blau)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:30:58 -0400
Subject: Print command
References: <mailman.1511.1092239223.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<WosSc.21396$Jp6.6141@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<2nv6roF54f7iU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<cvmdnbvUcbh--obcRVn-uw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <2o19ojF5ob9jU1@uni-berlin.de>

"Peter Hansen" <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message
news:cvmdnbvUcbh--obcRVn-uw at powergate.ca...
>
> "Russell Blau" <russblau at hotmail.com> wrote in message
>  > Actually, I don't know the meaning of  ``.
>  > On some languages, it means "evaluate": Is it the same meaning in
>  > Python?

Ummm, actually, that wasn't me you were quoting; it was the OP who replied
to my message pointing out that `x` doesn't mean the same as 'x'.

-- 
I don't actually read my hotmail account, but you can replace hotmail with
excite if you really want to reach me.




From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 01:41:52 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 01:41:52 -0400
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
In-Reply-To: <412040f8$0$8087$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1637.1092428855.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<30260531.0408131853.18ec2446@posting.google.com>
	<LIqdnd7Jz9Mspr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<412040f8$0$8087$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <AuWdnUL93se81L3cRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>

Grant Edwards wrote:

> On 2004-08-16, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
>>Please, *why* did it put you off?
> Dunno, it just did.
> 
> It seems to me that you're asking for a rational explanation
> for an emotional response.  It's like asking somebody "*why*
> don't you like pickled beets?" The answer you get is "I just
> don't." 

Hmm... not for me.  The answer would be "because they
taste like dirt", or "I hate purple", or "anything pickled
sucks".  "I just don't" looks a lot like a cop-out.  If
it is an emotional reaction, then the reason someone doesn't
like pickled beets would be "because I have a negative
emotional reaction to them which I don't understand
and cannot put into words"...  (but then writing about it
wouldn't make any sense ;-)

 > Perhaps they're just too different from what you're
> used to eating.  Perhaps there's something bad in your past
> associated with beets.  It doesn't really matter, since it's
> not a reasoned, rational reaction.

At the time you have the reaction, you may not understand
it.  Afterwards, you should be able to analyze it and
explain it, I believe.  But, whatever, we're different
people.  I can generally explain my reactions to things
while perhaps you can't.

> I think my negative reaction was because my only previous
> encounters with intentation significance was with Fortan IV and
> with Makefiles.  I find dealing with both of those unpleasant

Ah, thank you!  You _can_ do it. ;-)   I'll buy this (not
that anyone should care whether I buy it or not ;-) as a
valid and interesting reason for an initially negative reaction
to Python's indentation.

The reason I'm asking this is because I believe that if there
really are a significant number of people with such a
reaction (not necessarily for the same reason as yours), then
if we can analyze and discover the most common reasons for
such a reaction, then it might well be possible to eliminate
the cause and avoid the reaction.

For example, if 90% of people who have the "indentation rash"
had previous encounters with FORTRAN IV, then it ought to
be possible to make it obvious in the early documentation
(tutorial, intro page, etc) that Python is not FORTRAN and
doesn't suffer from the same limitations with respect to
indentation/whitespace significance as FORTRAN does.

(Not that I think we'll really find this particular one
to be the biggie.  But that roughly describes my purpose...)

-Peter


From grante at visi.com  Sun Aug 22 16:31:28 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 20:31:28 GMT
Subject: 100 % portable ?
References: <rp_Vc.221989$xO.10939509@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<sl1nv1-7jm.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<qnkn00nkkhv.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>
Message-ID: <slrncii0l0.g4l.grante@isis.visi.com>

On 2004-08-22, David M. Cooke <cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca> wrote:

> For Mac the preferred place files is ~/Documents, and for config files
> is in ~/Library/<application name>/.

Where to per-user config files go?

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  NANCY!! Why is
                                  at               everything RED?!
                               visi.com            


From tassilo.von.parseval at rwth-aachen.de  Fri Aug 27 01:13:19 2004
From: tassilo.von.parseval at rwth-aachen.de (Tassilo v. Parseval)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 07:13:19 +0200
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<2a56f6a3.0408252257.4f1f92e@posting.google.com>
	<2p5j10FesankU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<1gj4z06.14nwnzs1d0kno4N%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
Message-ID: <2p7vt5Fhho9kU1@uni-berlin.de>

Also sprach Otto Wyss:
> Tassilo v. Parseval <tassilo.von.parseval at rwth-aachen.de> wrote:
> 
>> It would, if anyone could take Xah Lee Loo seriously. But really, no one
>> can. He's more like the court jester, creeping out of the dark every so
>> and so months. We're all very much enjoying his sporadic shows. Really.
>> 
>> ;-)
>> 
> No offense but could you add some references so anyone can make up is
> own opinion?

For instance this one:

<http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&th=ced06f6c6a36927f&rnum=4>

Pay particular attention to the fact that he's whining about a certain
feature of a Perl module but posts not only in comp.lang.perl.misc but
also in the scheme, lisp, python and ruby group.

Tassilo
-- 
$_=q#",}])!JAPH!qq(tsuJ[{@"tnirp}3..0}_$;//::niam/s~=)]3[))_$-3(rellac(=_$({
pam{rekcahbus})(rekcah{lrePbus})(lreP{rehtonabus})!JAPH!qq(rehtona{tsuJbus#;
$_=reverse,s+(?<=sub).+q#q!'"qq.\t$&."'!#+sexisexiixesixeseg;y~\n~~dddd;eval


From johng2001 at rediffmail.com  Sun Aug  1 05:30:49 2004
From: johng2001 at rediffmail.com (John)
Date: 1 Aug 2004 02:30:49 -0700
Subject: Importance of C# (was Re: IronPython-0.6 is now available!)
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>
	<ce9cp3$g39$1@bagan.srce.hr> <5dydnZSDZaARoZXcRVn-ug@powergate.ca>
	<1n5z28erh2m3u.dlg@baczek.net.invalid>
	<FvCdnVnESJR0ZpXcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.921.1091114694.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ba129ce7.0407292217.24a810ce@posting.google.com>
	<uhdrpj0hc.fsf@broadpark.no>
	<ba129ce7.0407301333.670a90d5@posting.google.com>
	<u4qnottp2.fsf@broadpark.no>
Message-ID: <ba129ce7.0408010130.6f7779ac@posting.google.com>

> > OK! I am unaware of any. Can you point me to some.
> 
> Well, the one I "crashed" into was when I (by mistake) had compiled
> Microsoft's free ASP.Net container (Cassini) using version 1.0 of the
> framework, while my ASP.Net application was compiled using version 1.1
> of the framework. The result was that the container complained that it
> could not find the superclass for my page, since the 1.0 version of
> System.Web.HttpApplication is *not* the 1.1 version of
> System.Web.HttpApplication. It doid not even try to use it.
> 
> In Java, I *might* later have received a runtime exception about a
> missing method, if I actually used a method that was too "new".
> 
> (The solution to the Cassini problem was to manually write an
> application .config XML file that told it to use the 1.1 framework.
> This config file is also where you define any dependencies to
> particular versions of libraries; by default an application will use
> the newest available.)

That is more of a side effect of versioning features. Interesting case
anyway. I will keep that in mind.

> > Yes! Why do I have to list every jar file I use for the application in
> > the classpath? Why can't I just drop them in the same folder with the
> > app and expect the JVM to find them.
> 
> You can, if the jars are included in your "main jar"'s manifest's
> Class-Path value, e.g.
> 
> Main-Class: some.Application
> Class-Path: library.jar stuff.jar
> 
> Setting this up is, as in the case of .Net, a task for your IDE.

I had some facts wrong about .NET for that bit. I looked up after your
post and I know better now.

> I've used JBuilder and JDeveloper almost exclusively; I never could
> get my head around the "project-less" directory-focused and slow
> NetBeans.

OK! JBuilder does not look intimidating. I never got excited about the
JDeveloper's layout of tools.

> Because it hides the .Net complexities from the developer. Is that a
> good thing?

Hiding complexities from newbies and intermediate users is not a bad
idea. The project files are XML anyway. MS is mostly good at catering
to the needs of that market. Most Java tools don't seem to do that.
The impression I often get is Java is developed primarily for the
enterprise.

> > They seemed to compile Quake 2 fine.
> 
> How much of it ended up as unmanaged code? An application that runs
> outside of the managed container is not a .Net application.

I wasn't talking in just performance terms. I meant how the language
fit. But that's a good point. That would be interesting to know. Even
then, the prospect of being able to seemlessly add unmanaged code for
performance bottlenecks without the additional cognitive overhead of
integration API is nice.


From donn at u.washington.edu  Tue Aug 17 12:08:09 2004
From: donn at u.washington.edu (Donn Cave)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:08:09 -0700
Subject: os.system(), HTTPServer, and finishing HTTP requests
References: <41201e06@nntp.zianet.com> <1092631376.357585@yasure>
	<41214c28$1@nntp.zianet.com>
Message-ID: <donn-3E63A9.09080917082004@gnus01.u.washington.edu>

In article <41214c28$1 at nntp.zianet.com>,
 "Erik Johnson" <ej <at> wellkeeper <dot> com> wrote:
...
> I'm not sure why those would all be open, but this little bit seems to
> resolve the problem
> (it throws OSError when it hits the first invalid file descriptor).
> 
> for fd in xrange(3, 256):
>     try:
>         os.close(fd)
>     except OSError:
>         break
> 
> If you know a better/smarter way to effect the same thing, I'd be glad to
> hear about it.

That's a variation on a common idiom.  The difference is
the break, where more commonly you'd write "pass".  If this
is happening in the context of a short-term programming effort
that has to be very efficient, it's a good idea, because the
exceptions make the close much more expensive than it would
have been in C, where we usually see this loop.  If it needs
to work for the indefinite future, I would say change the break
to pass.  You can't count on that continuous series of open
file descriptors.

   Donn Cave, donn at u.washington.edu


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Aug 24 21:38:55 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 21:38:55 -0400
Subject: python raw strings?
References: <412bc766$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>
Message-ID: <cggqjf$too$1@sea.gmane.org>


"Maurice LING" <mauriceling at acm.org> wrote in message
news:412bc766$1 at news.unimelb.edu.au...
> I'm trying to toy around with PLY (python lex-yacc) by David Beazley
> from University of Chicago and realized that the lex module uses python
> raw strings. What are python raw strings

There is no such thing.  Only string/unicode literals prefixed by 'r',
which prefix flags a change in the conversion of the literal into a Python
object.  I believe the term come from 'raw' versus 'cooked' mode terminal
input in *nix.

Terry J. Reedy





From bryanjugglercryptographer at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 18 19:17:04 2004
From: bryanjugglercryptographer at yahoo.com (Bryan Olson)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 16:17:04 -0700
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
References: <mailman.1779.1092728873.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1a517b5.0408170923.48f6d964@posting.google.com>
	<cfv3cj$iqj$1@news.uni-kl.de>
Message-ID: <1a517b5.0408181517.8447681@posting.google.com>

Dominic wrote:
[Bryan had written:]
> > I've seen servers that rock written with explicit event handling,
> > threads, processes, and occasionally co-routines.  Where are the
> > great generator-based servers?

> Well, the Erlang (language + telecom platform) uses light-weight
> threads which could e.g. be implemented with coroutines in Python.

Well, the issue here is whether they could be implemented
reasonably in Python as it currently is, with generators 
but not co-routines.

> Event handling is fine but you could also explicitly code
> your behaviour as state machines ;-)

Hmm, I wasn't distinguishing the two.

> The drawback of event
> handling is that you have to separate state and control flow
> and resuming is error prone whereas generators and coroutines
> are easier and feel more natural.

Right.  Every time you do anything that might block, you have to
save your state and return all the way out to the event handler.
I think Python generators are about as awkward; you have to 
explicitly yield through every stacked call.  Preserving the 
local variables seems to be the only advantage.


-- 
--Bryan


From xtian at toysinabag.com  Mon Aug  9 05:38:55 2004
From: xtian at toysinabag.com (xtian)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 02:38:55 -0700
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar, but for what exactly?
References: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<YuCdnSVZvOVQ74jcRVn-tg@adelphia.com>
	<4115b53a$1@nntp0.pdx.net> <4116239e$1@news.012.net.il>
	<d111eafa.0408081949.3c28a465@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <d111eafa.0408090138.23bc6989@posting.google.com>

xtian at toysinabag.com (xtian) wrote in message news:<d111eafa.0408081949.3c28a465 at posting.google.com>...

> [some badly-formatted code]

Oops - sorry about the nasty layout there - another example of why tabs are evil. ;)

This is what I meant:

def property_(f):
    return property(*f())

class DecorationTest(object):
    def __init__(self):
        self._foo = 1
        
    @property_
    def foo():
        def get(self):
            print "get"
            return self._foo
        def set(self, val):
            print "set"
            self._foo = val
        return get, set

    
t = DecorationTest()
print t.foo
t.foo = 3
print t.foo


xtian


From mwh at python.net  Wed Aug  4 08:43:26 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 12:43:26 GMT
Subject: Subclassing file class
References: <mailman.1117.1091614897.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m3hdrjgjki.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

"David Vaughan" <David.Vaughan at Gifford.UK.com> writes:

> I'm using v2.3, and trying to write to text files, but with a maximum
> line length.  So, if a line is getting too long, a suitable ' '
> character is replaced by a new line.  I'm subclassing the file class,
> and, as long as I just use the write method, this works fine.  But
> "print >>" doesn't behave as I want:

You'll almost certainly be happier implementing a 'file-like object'
that does what you want than subclassing file.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Every day I send overnight packages filled with rabid weasels to
  people who use frames for no good reason.
                             -- The Usenet Oracle, Oracularity #1017-1


From sylvain.thenault at nospam.logilab.fr  Tue Aug 24 04:34:16 2004
From: sylvain.thenault at nospam.logilab.fr (Sylvain Thenault)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:34:16 +0200
Subject: Logical lines of code counter
References: <2ot090Fe5442U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<mailman.2172.1093230107.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2ot78fFe1mneU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.24.08.34.15.834915@nospam.logilab.fr>

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 23:43:25 -0400, Leif K-Brooks wrote:

> Tim Leslie wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:44:17 -0400, Leif K-Brooks
>> <eurleif at ecritters.biz> wrote:
>> 
>>>I got bored with working on larger projects and wrote a little
>>>script/module for counting logical (not physical) lines of Python code
>>>in a file or directory.
>> If you want something which can do this and so much more, have a look at
>> pylint.
>> 
>> http://www.logilab.org/projects/pylint
> 
> Neat-looking tool, but not really usable for me. It counts physical lines,
> not logical lines; it doesn't seem to have an option to recursively scan
> all sub-directories and files in a directory; and it refuses to process a
> file if some of the modules code wants to import aren't importable, which
> is the case with mod_python code.

pylint counts both physical lines and logical lines, but all collected
values are not displayed in reports. You should easily add a new report to
display some additional information if you need it. Well, it lacks some
documentation but the code is quite clean and I would be happy to help.

It's also possible to recursivly scan for all python modules in a
given package ("pylint mypackage"). The problem with failing import is the
most annoying one. I plan to fix it, one day ;)

-- 
Sylvain Th?nault                               LOGILAB, Paris (France).

http://www.logilab.com   http://www.logilab.fr  http://www.logilab.org




From Moiz.Golawala at ge.com  Thu Aug 12 11:11:30 2004
From: Moiz.Golawala at ge.com (Golawala, Moiz M (GE Infrastructure))
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 10:11:30 -0500
Subject: os.removedirs not working 
Message-ID: <4BF8D93CF6F73F4890EB6ED8009ECE191C5CFD@FTWMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com>

Hi All, 

I have a small program that where I am using os.removedirs('C:\\someDir') on windows. I get the error that the directory is not empty. Sure there are sub-directories under it and all file and directories are deletable(nothing is locked by the system) and there are no permission issues either. Can someone please tell me if I am using the os.removedirs() correctly? 

Moiz Golawala
GE Infrastructure, Security
Software Engineer
Enterprise Solutions

T 561 994 5972
F 561 994 6572
E moiz.golawala at ge.com 
www.gesecurity.com

791 Park of Commerce Blvd., Suite 100
Boca Raton, FL, 33487, U.S.A.
GE Security, Inc.



From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Aug  6 19:48:37 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (simo)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 16:48:37 -0700
Subject: Standalone Python Programs...
References: <ceugpq$35rs$1@netnews.upenn.edu>
	<-aSdndbo7ry5E47cRVn-ig@comcast.com>
	<41139ac9$0$65604$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <30260531.0408061548.283e96b1@posting.google.com>

Grant Edwards <grante at visi.com> wrote:

> Same here.  I've used py2exe + Inno Setup for a handfull of
> small wxPython applications and it's all worked quite nicely.

Same here too, InnoSetup is especially useful if you need to bundle
auxilliary files like icons, images, ChangeLogs etc. or make
desktop/startbar shortcuts.

I think py2exe is perfect, cx_Freeze is still not 100%

> > I can't speak to Linux installations because I have always
> > just used the Python installation already there.

> Yup.

I tried McMillan Installer on Linux, and had little success - because
even if you get the binary to build, it usually has .so dependency
issues - basically you need wxWidgets or GTK+ or whatever installed on
top of any Python you've coded.

I've falling back to providing the source and leaving it as an
exercise to the user to install all the Python modules they may not
have in their base install.

One of the attractions of IronPython is that you can build a single
.exe (or .bin on Linux I guess?) although the user still needs the CLR
runtime installed.


From http  Fri Aug 20 16:56:11 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 13:56:11 -0700
Subject: decorator J4 - any objections?
References: <cab22418.0408201006.16f163b2@posting.google.com>
	<7xbrh5hcpb.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<7NsVc.155687$M95.24909@pd7tw1no>
Message-ID: <7xd61ledg4.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Martin DeMello <martindemello at yahoo.com> writes:
> >     def func(arg1, arg2)
> >         @version("Added in 2.4")
> >         @returns(None):
> > 
> >         """Docstring could be here, or in decorator part above"""
> >         # body goes here
> 
> It's really nice to have an outdented marker for when the actual
> function body begins.

I don't really see why, but the decorators don't have to be indented:

     def func(arg1, arg2)
     -version("Added in 2.4")
     -returns(None):
 
         """Docstring could be here, or in decorator part above"""
         # body goes here

I guess that's ugly though.


From rspooner at frisurf.no  Tue Aug  3 03:47:44 2004
From: rspooner at frisurf.no (Richard Spooner)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 09:47:44 +0200
Subject: Unbinding sockets in threads..
Message-ID: <AqHPc.6202$Mq3.167116@news4.e.nsc.no>

Chaps,

I've written a piece of python code below that when called with a line such
as x = getdata(9999), listens on that port for data I'm sending it and puts
the data in a list.  If I delete x using del x and then try and assign a new
value to port 9999 (e.g z=getdata(9999) ) then it reports that the socket it
already bound, and I can't find any way of unbinding the port.

If I try it not in a thread the del function works fine (i.e. creating and
binding a socket s and then deleting it)  Can anyone suggest some
modifications I can do to make this work??

Thanks in advance

Dave

import threading
import socket
import struct
import sys
import time





class getdata(threading.Thread):
    def __init__(self, port):
        threading.Thread.__init__(self)
        self.x = ['ZERO SPACE']
        self.s = socket.socket( socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_DGRAM )
        try:
            self.s.bind(( '', port))

        except socket.error, msg:
            print "Could not bind to socket"
            time.sleep(3)
            self.s.close()
            sys.exit(1)
        self.carryon = 'true'
        self.start()






    def run(self):
        while self.carryon == 'true':
            self.data, self.addr = self.s.recvfrom( 1024 )
            self.channel, self.value = struct.unpack( 'IBxxx' , self.data )
            try:
                self.x[int(self.channel)] = self.value
            except IndexError:
                while len(self.x)-1 < int(self.channel):
                    if len(self.x) == int(self.channel):
                        self.x.append(self.value)
                    else:
                        self.x.append('NA')
            except:
                print "Dictionary creation error"
                time.sleep(3)
                self.s.close()
                sys.exit

            print self.x
        return




From peter at engcorp.com  Wed Aug 18 21:12:55 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 21:12:55 -0400
Subject: simple Thread question
In-Reply-To: <cfvphs$p9e$1@panix3.panix.com>
References: <b8001e9f.0408031151.4f617c6@posting.google.com>
	<1d6cdae3.0408171648.1b8767ea@posting.google.com>
	<l82dnQLW7bZOIb_cRVn-qQ@powergate.ca>
	<cfvphs$p9e$1@panix3.panix.com>
Message-ID: <aqOdnXhiyaIBY77cRVn-jA@powergate.ca>

Aahz wrote:

> In article <l82dnQLW7bZOIb_cRVn-qQ at powergate.ca>,
> Peter Hansen  <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> 
>>While it's true that that is all that's needed, it is not required,
>>and doesn't really provide any performance improvements.  I often do
>>the above sort of thing where I use a given module in only one place,
>>especially when using threads where it feels subtly cleaner to defer
>>loading of some modules until the thread actually starts.
> 
> Except that the import lock makes this a Bad Idea, IMO.

Does the import lock apply to the first import, or even
to all later ones where it can just find it in sys.modules?

-Peter


From sjdevnull at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 31 12:47:03 2004
From: sjdevnull at yahoo.com (G. S. Hayes)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 09:47:03 -0700
Subject: File System
References: <10j7r3cflo61680@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.2656.1093944977.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <96c2e938.0408310847.4a34b73f@posting.google.com>

Aaron Bingham <bingham at cenix-bioscience.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.2656.1093944977.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> Hello Maboroshi,
> 
> You are not the first to think that there might be an alternative to the 
> filesystem.  Here are a few links to sites for projects where 
> filesystems have been rethought or eliminated in very different ways.

And let's not forget the reiserfs version 4 debate that's going on on
the linux-kernel mailing list right now (and could potentially result
in the fs being very different from the standard Unix fs, allowing a
cyclic graph with object inheritance and complex query operations--or
not, since it's not entirely clear that that's a good idea).  Check
out the thread "silent semantic changes with reiser4" and related
threads at e.g.

http://www.uwsg.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0408.3/index.html

I guess BeOS had a pretty unique FS as well, and its author (Dominic
Giampalo) is working on a new FS for the Mac.  And there's the
(recently delayed) WinFS as well.


From michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk  Wed Aug 25 09:33:34 2004
From: michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk (Michael Sparks)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:33:34 +0100
Subject: PEP318: radical notion
References: <Xns954E72EC48C5Earienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>
	<412a4222$0$293$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<d3247b7a.0408241413.55b34cb2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgi4vh$4q7$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>

Arien Malec wrote:
...
> Is there a valid use case that supports arbitrary magical non-metadata
> transformations of standalone functions?

2 use cases (in addition to others people have mentioned) I can think of
off the top of my head:
   * Adding call tracing to specific functions without disturbing the
     code.
   * Wrapping generator functions so that they can recieve data in an
     IPC manner.

using:
   trace(level=1)
def somefunc(foo):
   if bla(foo) == 1:
       return weeble(foo)
   elif baz(foo) == 2:
       return wobble(foo)
   elif bibble(foo) == 3:
       return jeeble(foo)
   elif bloing(foo) == 4:
       return jobble(foo)
   elif nickynickynack(foo) == 5:
       return fnarkle(foo)

Adding a trace function in here temporarily would mean you can intercept
both the call and the return values conveniently - as you would with
memoise (say), but you can do something interesting with it.
Furthermore, if you're not sure your memoise decorator is doing the
right thing you could do something like:

using:
    trace(level=1)
    memoise
def somefunc(foo):
    if bla(foo) == 1: ...

Followed by...

using:
    memoise
    trace(level=1)
def somefunc(foo):
    if bla(foo) == 1: ...

And potentially:

using:
   trace(level=1)
def somefunc(foo):
   if bla(foo) == 1: ...

And do a compare and contrast of results. Behaviour is transformed,
there is no metadata involved and it's suitable for any function -
whether it's part of a class's namespace (as any kind of method), or
not. Since they're not necessarily part of a class you can't use
metaclasses to do this.

Regards,


Michael.
-- 
Michael.Sparks at rd.bbc.co.uk    
British Broadcasting Corporation, Research and Development
Kingswood Warren, Surrey KT20 6NP

This message (and any attachments) may contain personal views
which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.




From fumanchu at amor.org  Mon Aug 16 00:26:29 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:26:29 -0700
Subject: Writing traceback
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022DF8@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Ehab Teima wrote:
> I have built a server application. It's multithreaded, and everything
> works fine so far. I have only one issue with catching exceptions
> after I read the documentation but I can't find any problems yet. I'm
> catching all errors throughout the code into a function and I write
> the traceback to the server log as well as the screen. That's all. I
> need not to save it or anything else. The documentation said the
> function (in this example catchError) should not handle exceptions
> itself. How would I get around this issue given that writing to the
> server log must not stop the server? In other words, the function
> itself must handle and ignore any exceptions raised by itself. i.e. I
> want to make sure that failing to write to the server log is ignored.

I would suggest you use the "logging" module instead of rolling your
own. Once you've set up the handler, logging complete, annotated
exceptions is as simple as "logger.exception(msg)". Try
logging.handlers.RotatingFileHandler in particular.

If you inspect that module's code, you might notice that even it handles
exceptions (see logging.FileHandler.emit()).


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From usemyfullname at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 30 15:25:37 2004
From: usemyfullname at hotmail.com (Antony Sequeira)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 19:25:37 GMT
Subject: Xah Lee's Unixism
In-Reply-To: <slrncj1745.t5q.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<1gj5eeq.gb3dk41wup9zwN%otto.wyss@orpatec.ch>
	<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>
	<4PGdnfsOfdDPi63cRVn-tA@speakeasy.net>
	<slrncj1745.t5q.amajorel@atc5.vermine.org>
Message-ID: <41337FC9.8070902@hotmail.com>

Andre Majorel wrote:
> On 2004-08-28, Rob Warnock <rpw3 at rpw3.org> wrote:
> 
>>Pascal Bourguignon  <spam at mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>>+---------------
>>| $ telnet xahlee.org 80;
>>| Trying 208.186.130.4...
>>| Connected to xahlee.org.
>>| Escape character is '^]'.
>>| GET / HTTP/1.1
>>| 
>>| HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request
>>| Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:35:52 GMT
>>| Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
>>|         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>+---------------
>>
>>So are you complaining about the fact that his hosting provider
>>preloaded RedHat Fedora with Apache 2.0 for him?
> 
> 
> There is no shortage of Windows-based hosting companies, so why
> didn't he go there ? Whatever your opinions, it's best to put
> your money where your mouth is if you expect to be taken
> seriously.
> 
Windows (MS) is not 'Unixism'?
-Antony


From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Wed Aug 11 14:42:29 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:42:29 -0700
Subject: 'break' Causes Execution of Procedure?
In-Reply-To: <cfdif9$hhm$1@news01.intel.com>
References: <cfdif9$hhm$1@news01.intel.com>
Message-ID: <10hkq3u54ht2h4e@corp.supernews.com>

Scott Brady Drummonds wrote:

>Hi, everyone,
>
>I have a bug in a script of several hundred lines of code that I cannot
>figure out.  I have attempted (unsuccessfully) to duplicate this problem in
>a smaller script that I can post here but have been unsuccessful.  As such,
>I'm posting code snippets here in the hopes that someone recognizes a very
>basic mistake I've made and can straighten me out.
>
>First, the portion of my text file that executes my code:
>
><quote>
>if __name__ == '__main__':
>  if len(sys.argv) != 2:
>    print('usage: %s <config_file>' % sys.argv[0])
>    sys.exit()
>
>  main(sys.argv[1])
></quote>
>
>Here are the first few lines of my 'main' procedure:
><quote>
>def main(fileName):
>  print('DEBUG: begin main procedure')
>  ...
></quote>
>
>And here is the part that is causing problems:
><quote>
>    #  'keys' is a list of integers returned from dict.keys()
>    for cycle in keys:
>      if key in skipList:
>        print ('skipping %d/%d' % (cycle, cycleMap[cycle]))
>        continue
>      try:
>        print('DEBUG: advancing both simulators to %d' % cycle)
>        procedureThatCouldRaiseEOFError()
>      except EOFError:
>        print('DEBUG: encountered EOFError; breaking loop')
>        break
>    print('DEBUG: All cycles processed')
></quote>
>
>Here's what I can't figure out.  I'm seeing the following text generated
>during this script's execution:
><quote>
>DEBUG: advancing both simulators to 20178
>DEBUG: encountered EOFError; breaking loop
>DEBUG: begin main procedure
></quote>
>
>How is it possible that the call to 'break' is seemingly being replaced with
>a call to 'main'?
>  
>

I suspect that the answer is in the context of the for loop.  Try 
posting a bit more of the surrounding code.  (For example, it's not at 
all clear how your loop relates to the main() snippet that you posted...)

Actually, I'm wondering why you catch the exception inside the loop, and 
then exit the loop.  If you wrapped that entire loop in the try/except, 
then you wouldn't need to worry about using break -- an exception would 
end the loop and *then* get dealt with.

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From drconrad at metaplay.com.au  Mon Aug 16 04:19:28 2004
From: drconrad at metaplay.com.au (Simon Wittber)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:19:28 +0800
Subject: {SPAM?} RE: Generators versus Coroutines
In-Reply-To: <Y0ZTc.10343$M8.8263@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200408160807.i7G87MJ2022091@redpill.digitalventures.com.au>

I've written a small module to help me out in game simulations. I use the
MicroThreadPool class (co-routines using generators) whenever I
_conceptually_ need to visualize things happening concurrently.

http://metaplay.com.au/MEPH.html








From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Thu Aug 26 10:40:18 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:40:18 GMT
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:31:55 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
>Currently, you can change a doc string outside of a function, by 
>modifying the function's __doc__ attribute
>
>   >>> def foo():
>   ...     """ I am foo """
>   ...
>   >>> foo.__doc__
>   ' I am foo '
>   >>> foo.__doc__ = foo.__doc__ + 'indeed'
>   >>> foo.__doc__
>   ' I am foo indeed'
>   >>>
>
>IMO, to change it inside of a function def should be (but isn't) as easy 
>as...
>
>   >>> def foo():
>   ...     """ I am foo """
>   ...     __doc__ = __doc__ + 'indeed'
>
>Paul

Yes.  Not only do I follow, but I think we came to exactly the same
place, from very different directions, and coming from what I sense is
very different backgrounds.

Its just that I don't think many others seem to find that as
interesting as I happen to.

Hopefully, for good enough reasons.

Art

>
>



From dave at boost-consulting.com  Tue Aug 24 11:00:56 2004
From: dave at boost-consulting.com (David Abrahams)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 08:00:56 -0700
Subject: Unpythonic Python
References: <8a638f47.0408240034.653a92ff@posting.google.com>
	<zn4lvsib.fsf@python.net>
Message-ID: <8a638f47.0408240700.13c39f57@posting.google.com>

Thomas Heller <theller at python.net> wrote in message news:<zn4lvsib.fsf at python.net>...
> dave at boost-consulting.com (David Abrahams) writes:
> 
> > I started having some weird problems with Python recently; they're so
> > weird that I can't begin to explain them.  All I can do is describe
> > the symptoms and hope someone else has a clue.  So here goes:
> >
> > FreeBSD 4.2, Python 2.2.2. 
> >  
> > I have a nightly cron job that downloads the boost cvs tarball from
> > SourceForge and bunzip2s it.  For about a year everything worked with
> > no problems. About a month ago the download started getting truncated
> > with no error reported.
> 
> There were some problems with anonymous CVS on sourceforge, which also
> affected the nightly CVS tarballs.  Can it have to do with this?
> I also had problems downloading the CVS tarball for ctypes - but it
> seems now repaired.
> 
> http://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=2352&group_id=1#1093021394

That's not the problem.  I can download the file reliably from other machines.

> >   Then bunzip2 reports corruption, of course.
> Maybe you don't get a bz2 file, but a HTML error message instead?

No, it's a truncated bz2.  I can use bzip2recover and get some of the contents back.

Thanks, though.
--
Dave Abrahams
Boost Consulting
http://www.boost-consulting.com


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Tue Aug  3 15:30:19 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 15:30:19 -0400
Subject: dislin interfaced with tkinter
In-Reply-To: <1091561149.927180@news.commspeed.net>
References: <34c9b4fa.0408030743.594417f9@posting.google.com>
	<1091561149.927180@news.commspeed.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408031525380.10945-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Tom B. wrote:

> I haven't worked with Dislin/Tkinter but I have worked with Dislin/wxPython
> and what you can do is dump the Dislin output into a string buffer.
> 
> [code]

Building on that, the only change needed to use that with Tkinter would be 
to convert the Image object into a PhotoImage object using 
ImageTk.PhotoImage:

    self.Imagetest = ImageTk.PhotoImage(Image.open(StringIO.StringIO(char)))



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 21:49:38 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:49:38 +1000
Subject: Proposed improved decorator syntax
In-Reply-To: <1091753696.4112d6e06ea9e@webmail.oregonstate.edu>
References: <1091753696.4112d6e06ea9e@webmail.oregonstate.edu>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040805184969ef1cc1@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu,  5 Aug 2004 17:54:56 -0700, barnesc at engr.orst.edu
<barnesc at engr.orst.edu> wrote:
> We should really have a public vote.  I doubt the @ sign will be approved
> if 99% of Python users oppose it.

In case it's not clear - Python is not a democracy. The utter shambles of
the ternary operator horror shows very clearly why this is a good thing,
as do the various languages that are designed by committee. On this 
particular subject, Guido wrote:

"Python is not a democracy.  I can't be swayed by votes, only by good
arguments."

Say no to language design by committee.


From del at mjclift.freeserve.co.uk  Fri Aug 13 01:28:18 2004
From: del at mjclift.freeserve.co.uk (Calvin79)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 01:28:18 -0400
Subject: while and if
References: <e0197c1847cb38af22dceeb8aaa6e679@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>
	<mailman.1581.1092372820.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <edb71259c8376cf98feaf5f24bd932fc@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>

Hi Satchit,

Can I also ask how could I stop two of the same letters being given i.e.
aa or dd and also how would I stop the same letter being repeated with
only one space between i.e. a b a or c a c

Thanks,

Calvin



From John.Marshall at ec.gc.ca  Mon Aug 30 10:47:03 2004
From: John.Marshall at ec.gc.ca (John Marshall)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 14:47:03 +0000
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
Message-ID: <1093877223.29131.11.camel@mango.cmc.ec.gc.ca>

FOR

Thanks,
John





From kyleroot at gmail.com  Sat Aug  7 09:34:51 2004
From: kyleroot at gmail.com (Kyle Root)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 13:34:51 GMT
Subject: Questions about parsing XML
Message-ID: <%T4Rc.150$Iv.46@trndny03>

I'm writing a practice program that parses an xml config file, at the 
moment I'm using expat.  However I don't like some of it's behaviors. 
For example ParseFile() will parse the *entire* file and I don't want to 
do that.  I would like to be able to tell it to find such and such a tag 
and return the cdata it contains, is this at all possible?  If it is how 
would I handle optional tags?

If it's not possible and the entire file does have to be parsed in one 
fell swoop, are there any special ways collecting the data into a usable 
form?  I tried to put everything into a list, but that's not very 
practicle, especially with optional tags.

Thanks,
Kyle


From brett at python.org  Tue Aug 10 14:08:45 2004
From: brett at python.org (Brett C.)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 11:08:45 -0700
Subject: Popular Python projects with lots of pure Python code
References: <mailman.1421.1092096026.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <8ab0589d.0408101008.6a1c7e9e@posting.google.com>

"Robert Brewer" <fumanchu at amor.org> wrote in message news:
> If you need just stats (without drilling down into code to interpret
> those stats), you might package up your stat-generation code and hand it
> out on c.l.p. That way, I and many others could run it against our
> proprietary code and just give you results without exposing source code.
> Might be a way to get a broader range of results--most of the "big
> projects" in the wild are frameworks, not apps.
> 

Hmm.  That's possible.  The only problem is that I have modified the
2.3.4 compiler so people would need to be willing to have a copy of
2.3.4 source, apply the patch, and then probably run py_compile on
their Python code tree.

But who knows, some people might be interested enough to bother.  I
can post the code once I think it is as bug-free as it is going to get
before I start collecting stats.

Thanks for the suggestion, Robert.

-Brett


From grv575 at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 10 01:56:55 2004
From: grv575 at hotmail.com (grv575)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 22:56:55 -0700
Subject: Importance of C# (was Re: IronPython-0.6 is now available!)
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>	<ce9cp3$g39$1@bagan.srce.hr>
	<5dydnZSDZaARoZXcRVn-ug@powergate.ca>	<1n5z28erh2m3u.dlg@baczek.net.invalid>	<FvCdnVnESJR0ZpXcRVn-pw@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.921.1091114694.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<537ea4cd.0408070757.14790cfe@posting.google.com>
	<41155c78$0$4348$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <144d0df.0408092156.1455f2af@posting.google.com>

Christophe Cavalaria <chris.cavalaria at free.fr> wrote in message news:<41155c78$0$4348$626a14ce at news.free.fr>...
> ziller wrote:
> 
> >> After reading a tutorial on c#, I see immediately that it has all the
> >> features that I disliked in Java.
> >> 
> >> 1) Everything is derived from "Object"
> > 
> > Pure OO is supposed to be an advantage.  Otherwise casting hacks have
> > to be used and understood.
> 
> With real generics you don't need casting hack.

Ok then how do you get all classes to have some universal behaviors
(like getType() or whatever) otherwise?

> >> 3) No multiple inheritance
> > 
> > This has been covered to death.  MI implementation is a nightmare.
> > I'm sure some design pattern would map any 'needed' MI solution to an
> > equivalent one using interfaces and SI.
> 
> We have MI in Python and it works somewhat. And I'm sure SI isn't needed
> anyway. There must be some design patter mapping SI in assembler or even on
> a turing machine.

If you want MI to specify that a class is both A and B...then which
semantics (method implementation) should it use if A and B have
different implementations of a certain method?  Don't you really just
want to specify the class is A and is B to the extent that it
implements the interface of A and the interface of B?  Really MI
causes more issues and confusion than it solves.

Also isn't C++ just syntactic sugar for assembler?

> >> I'm not sure about 2 others:
> >> 
> >> 4) No serious generic programming support
> > 
> > It'll be there for 2.0.  And the implementation is superb (much like
> > Eiffel's generics)
> 
> They aren't out yet and people are already complaining that they are too
> limited. So far, despite an horrible syntax and horrible error messages the
> C++ templates are still much more powerful than C# generics. And the best
> thing is that the constraint system you can find on boost.org for C++
> templates is more powerful than the one you have in Eiffel either :D

The jury is still out as well.

http://discuss.fogcreek.com/joelonsoftware/default.asp?cmd=show&ixPost=144778


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Tue Aug 10 16:02:01 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:02:01 -0400
Subject: Prothon is switching to the .NET platform
References: <000401c47b59$32539220$0d01a8c0@MarkVaio>
	<mailman.1257.1091769173.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061247130.22947-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<10h7lb21dhbuc12@news.supernews.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408061533250.25906-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<10h7rittck6ct75@news.supernews.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408101527020.9982-100000@ccc2.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <10hiaed6dj22283@news.supernews.com>

"Christopher T King" <squirrel at WPI.EDU> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0408101527020.9982-100000 at ccc2.wpi.edu...
> On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, John Roth wrote:
>
> > The place where this gets really ugly is inserting functions
> > into the instances. They have to be created at the module
> > level, and then inserted into the instance by a module level
> > function (somewhat similar to the way classmethod,
> > staticmethod and property work).
>
> Oh, I wouldn't even attempt that until Python supported
> "def object.method():" syntax (like Prothon does).

It actually works quite nicely. Your suggested syntax
would be a definite plus, but I'm not holding my breath
until there are a number of people using some variety
of prototype package in Python. It's a classic chicken
and egg problem.

Hans Nowak's package works quite well, although
it uses self-style objects: they don't start out with
any kind of inheritance, you have to plug in the
objects you want as parents after creating the
instance.

On the other hand, it could simply be waiting
on someone writing a PEP and giving some
believable use cases for wanting to insert
random methods into instances.

> Using my derive class,
> you could acheieve a similar effect though:
>
>  class my_derived_class(derive):
>      def some_new_function(self):
>          <do stuff>
>  my_derived_object = my_derived_class(my_prototype_object)
>
> You aren't able to insert function definitions after the derived object is
> created using this method (something I imag, but most function
> definitions are premeditated anyways.

I'm not familiar with your system, but there's no particular
difficulty inserting methods into either a class or an instance.
You just have to know the correct way to wrap it.

To put it into an instance, you have to wrap it in new.instancemethod.

John Roth
>




From jgrahn-nntq at algonet.se  Wed Aug  4 09:13:18 2004
From: jgrahn-nntq at algonet.se (Jorgen Grahn)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 13:13:18 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Does python support multi prototype.
References: <2natmnFv86rjU1@uni-berlin.de> <HGXPc.1098$M95.865@pd7tw1no>
Message-ID: <slrnch1o4j.nv3.jgrahn-nntq@frailea.sa.invalid>

On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 02:17:11 GMT, Chris Dutton <rubyguru at hotmail.com> wrote:
> angel wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> Java and cpp support one function name multi function prototype.

To be pedantic, C++ is called "C++", not "cpp", and what you seem to refer
to is what C++ calls "overloaded function names" or "overloading".

...
>> Does python support it?
> 
> No, but it doesn't have to.  The type of a function's arguments are not 
> statically limited.
...

Yes, but that's not as elegant in cases where the arguments' types has to
trigger very different processing. I can even imagine situations where
foo(S) and a foo(T) do completely different things, and still 'foo' is the
best name for both of them.

I miss overloading in Python from time to time, but I can live without it.
It is, after all, closely tied to a type system which is desirable in C++
and Java, but not in Python.

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <jgrahn@      ''If All Men Were Brothers,
\X/                algonet.se>    Would You Let One Marry Your Sister?''


From fumanchu at amor.org  Thu Aug 26 13:36:08 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:36:08 -0700
Subject: mixing statements into J2
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E85@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

> > >       Can we insert conditional expressions in the 
> decorator list ?
> > 
> > Not with the current patch; however, that option may be 
> allowed in the future.
> 
> "In the future" means "post-2.4, when we have an idea of what people
> are doing with it". Right now, there's not a whole lot of use cases
> for more complex expressions in the decorator area, and there's more
> potential for horror. Guido made this call on a gut feeling, not on
> any technical grounds. His gut is usually good on this.
> 
> > The order of operation would have to be reversed,
> 
> I don't see why.

It's not a requirement, but it seems reasonable to me. If you're going
to set off a decorator suite and then mix in normal Python statements,
the two models collide over order of operation:

using:
    if test:
        memoize
    else:
        synchronize
    classmethod
def foo(self, *args):
    stuff(args)

The statements get evaluated top-to-bottom, but the decorators get
applied bottom-to-top. It would be one more confusing issue in an
already-confusing syntax. Not to mention that the current patch pushes
decorators onto the stack at compile-time, and then pops them off after
the function def. Mixing statements into the suite would move decorators
from compile-time to runtime (at least, I don't see any way to avoid
that without introducing a whole new layer of pragmas).

If I felt it were possible, I would have recommended that application
order in J2 be the opposite of A1. But I figured that would cause
another two weeks of debate, which we don't have. I certainly see that
"using:" provides a case for top-to-bottom, where "@decorator" implies
the opposite.

> > so *IF* Guido votes yes, 
> > then you need to bring this up again immediately.
> 
> God no. Please don't. Work with the syntax that's chosen, then we can
> revisit this for 2.5.

Waiting until then guarantees the question won't be addressed, due to
backward-compatibility issues which we will have then which we do not
have now. Which I'm willing to concede to be a foregone conclusion at
this point. Perhaps it would be enough just to say (to Guido), "this is
still an open issue (one of many)"?


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 17:18:19 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 23:18:19 +0200
Subject: Class Friends
References: <20040827081556.657c3fac.a@c.d>
	<pan.2004.08.27.12.55.20.844417@jerf.org>
	<mailman.2537.1093626552.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj72ft.z5skuq14uaiihN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<pan.2004.08.27.15.10.13.130691@jerf.org>
Message-ID: <1gj79ll.1a81rmf1wal7gtN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Jeremy Bowers <jerf at jerf.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:37:44 +0200, Alex Martelli wrote:
> 
> > Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
> >    ...
> >> I've considered a jihad to try and get uses of the double-under
> >> mangling removed from the standard library. Maybe once 2.4 is out I'll
> >> take this on.
> > 
> > Count on my support on this: I consider it "something that looked like
> > it would be a good idea at the time" (to me, too -- I'm not prescient
> > either;-) but didn't really work as well as hoped.
> 
> Well, I didn't want to come right out and say it for fear of starting a
> flame war, but yeah, I was thinking this really loudly :-)
> 
> (At least it is only for *double* underscores; mangling on singles would
> have *really* sucked.)

Yeah, it would.  Mind you, accidental clashes with a base class's
internals _do_ happen, and it IS a pity there's no easy and elegant way
to avoid them, but it currently seems to me (after a few years'
experience, and starting with a positive bias towards the idea) that
mangling on double underscores, as Anthony says, has enough issues to
make it not ideal for the purpose.  So, we need to keep that mechanism
in the language, for backwards compatibility (and perhaps as a sneaky
way to claim we DO so have 'private'...!-)... but we sure don't need to
use it ourselves if it gives us more problems than it solves.

Just like the (more practically important) problem of sandboxing (ever
since rexec and Bastion got deprecated), the problem of avoiding
accidental clashes between ancestor and descendant classes, without
paying a substantial price for it, may perhaps be currently classed as
'unsolved -- as yet'.


Alex


From cjw at sympatico.ca  Thu Aug 12 20:25:50 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 20:25:50 -0400
Subject: pretty print 2D arrays
In-Reply-To: <10hn65v5eltr65d@corp.supernews.com>
References: <10hn65v5eltr65d@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <gUTSc.20744$a65.923952@news20.bellglobal.com>



Alan G Isaac wrote:

> I figure someone must have done this nicely but
> I can't find it. I'd like structured printing of 2D
> arrays, where an entry of None or '' should be
> printed as whitespace. Something like:
> 
> Inputs: 2D array, 1D array of fixed field widths, 1D array of format
> suggestions
> Effect: formatted print of the 2D array (or its transpose)
> 
> Thanks,
> Alan Isaac
> 
You might consider numarray, but you would have to make your own
provision for Null entries.

Colin W.



From pinard at iro.umontreal.ca  Mon Aug 23 12:51:29 2004
From: pinard at iro.umontreal.ca (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois?= Pinard)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:51:29 -0400
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
In-Reply-To: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E26@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E26@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <20040823165129.GC8036@titan.progiciels-bpi.ca>

[Robert Brewer]

> III. Choosing a keyword

> If a keyword is to be chosen over @ or other punctuation, the question
> remains, "which word should it be?" [...] The keyword [...] should not
> be a word with a planned future. This rules out "with" and "as"

All the contrary, being a word with a planned future may be an advantage, as
long as using that word makes enough sense in itself, and given the syntax we
use have no chance of clashing with the planned syntax.

This might rule out "as" because not meaningful enough, but "with" might
be pertinent enough for being used -- yet I'm not fully sure.  The word
"using" is surely not bad either :-), but would be yet another keyword.

-- 
Fran?ois Pinard   http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard


From tzot at sil-tec.gr  Thu Aug  5 05:45:17 2004
From: tzot at sil-tec.gr (Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 12:45:17 +0300
Subject: Subclassing file class
References: <mailman.1117.1091614897.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <7d04h0dskqbdf2j1f8429726j766mnhrhj@4ax.com>

On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 11:20:20 +0100, rumours say that "David Vaughan"
<David.Vaughan at Gifford.UK.com> might have written:

>I'm using v2.3, and trying to write to text files, but with a maximum
>line length. [snip]

Apart from any other advices you get, you might want to consider the
textwrap module.
-- 
TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best,
"Tssss!" --Brad Pitt as Achilles in unprecedented Ancient Greek


From davidf at sjsoft.com  Mon Aug 30 11:40:50 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 17:40:50 +0200
Subject: Installation of mod_python 3.1.3 on Apache 2.0.50 on Windows
 Me/Win2k
In-Reply-To: <39cbe663.0408290850.14452ab9@posting.google.com>
References: <39cbe663.0408290850.14452ab9@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgvhq2$pur$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

Piet wrote:
> Hi there,
> I cannot install mod_python v3.1.3 on either Win2k/ActivePython 2.3.2
> or WinMe/Python 2.3.4. When I run the Windows installer, I get the
> following error message:
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "C:\Programme\Python23\Scripts\win32_postinstall.py", line 86, in ?
>     apachediroptions = getApacheDirOptions()
>   File "C:\Programme\Python23\Scripts\win32_postinstall.py", line 45, in getApacheDirOptions
>     apachekey = regkey(win32con.HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE, "Software").childkey("Apache Group").childkey("Apache")
>   File "C:\Programme\Python23\Scripts\win32_postinstall.py", line 34, in childkey
>     return regkey(self.key, subkeyname)
>   File "C:\Programme\Python23\Scripts\win32_postinstall.py", line 32, in __init__
>     self.key = win32api.RegOpenKey(parent, subkeyname)
> pywintypes.error: (2, 'RegOpenKeyEx', 'Das System kann die angegebene
> Datei nicht finden.')
> Exception exceptions.AttributeError: "regkey instance has no attribute
> 'key'" in <bound method regkey.__del__ of <__main__.regkey instance at
> 0x00CF1440>> ignored
> *** run_installscript: internal error 0xFFFFFFFF ***
> I checked the registry and found that the key mentioned in the error
> message does indeed not exist. Is this a failure in my apache
> configuration/installation or is the installation package of
> mod_python incorrect? Are there any experiences with the
> abovementioned configuration?
> Thanx in advance
> Peter

Hi

This error was found when installing the original mod_python 3.1.3 for 
Windows installer on a non-Admin install of Python. You'll probably find 
that the registry does exist, but under HKEY_CURRENT_USER, not 
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE.

In fact mod_python has actually been installed correctly, but the 
instructions about changing your apache configuration have not been 
given, and the mod_python library hasn't been copied into the Apache 
directory.

These issues should all be fix in the latest win32 build of mod_python 
available from 
http://davidf.sjsoft.com/files/mod_python-3.1.3-1.win32-py2.3.exe

Need to get Grisha to release this...

I would recommend removing the Scripts/win32_postinstall.py file before 
running it...

Hope that helps, if you have errors report them here or on the 
mod_python mailing list.

David


From mwh at python.net  Fri Aug  6 11:40:53 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:40:53 GMT
Subject: Queue qsize = unreliable?
References: <1091805850.15192.12.camel@localhost>
	<mailman.1278.1091806388.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m3hdrgqnp7.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

"Mike C. Fletcher" <mcfletch at rogers.com> writes:

> Tim, of course, would know better, but that's always been my interpretation.

Can I please quote this out of context? :-)

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  <skreech> How do I keep people from reading my Perl code? Oh wait.
            Ha ha!                              -- from Twisted.Quotes


From cpl.19.ghum at spamgourmet.com  Sun Aug  1 17:41:04 2004
From: cpl.19.ghum at spamgourmet.com (Harald Massa)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 21:41:04 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: MySQLdb select
References: <mailman.1008.1091284523.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<yaydnXVN8fKcLpbcRVn-rg@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <Xns9538F0FA7F874cpl19ghumspamgourmet@195.20.224.116>

Ruben,

it is considered bad style wihtin c.l.p. to have aggressive emotions 
apart from mails about a "ternary operator"

The correct way would have been:

> > cursor.execute("SELECT * FROM mytest where clientID = %d" % numb)
>>
>> That's particularly BAD STYLE. It's best to keep to letting the
>> DB-API do the proper quoting for all parameters.

"Gerhard, why is this BAD STYLE? And how can I make the DB-API do the 
proper quoting for all parameters?"


And probably the answer would have been:

with doing 

"SELECT * FROM mytest where clientID = %d" % numb 

you are using the standard Python String-Formatting Functions. That may 
or may not lead to success.

Especially when using a mixture of strings and numbers, they have to be 
quoted differently.

Also special characters within strings have to be quoted - for example, 
the single ' has to be quoted within SQL because it is usually used as 
string delimiter

cursor.execute("SELECT * FROM mytest where clientID = %d" , numb)

The "," is the magic -

with "Bla " % sth you are passing ONE argument --- the %s gets 
substituted, and one argument gets passed to the function.

With "," two arguments get passed to the execute-"function" so that the 
DB-API has the challenge to integrate the parameters into the SQL-String.

And it is more bad style to write

"SELECT * FROM mytest where clientID = %d" % numb 

because % is defined with using a Tuple as second parameter, that would 
be
"clientID = %d" % (numb,)

Using % with sth. else than a tuple may succeed or give you very funny 
errors if numb happens to be a List in a later run.

Best wishes,

Harald


From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 12 09:01:30 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:01:30 -0400
Subject: Pyhton Interpreter Startup time
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1556.1092304607.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1556.1092304607.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <AK2dnejSUMm394bcRVn-iw@powergate.ca>

Neil Benn wrote:

>          I'm looking at a small app which would need a very quick 
> startup time for the Python interpreter.  It doesn't do much (copying 
> and caching of files, no GUI) but I need the Python interpreter to start 
> up very quickly (<1 second on a Windows box).  

What kind of machine do you have?

On mine, Python starts up in about 0.06 seconds...

This primitive test shows these results on a Windows XP machine
(it won't work with Windows 98 as it can't chain commands on the
command line like that, but you could but it in a batch file).

c:\>echo. | time & python -c "import time; print time.time()"
The current time is:  8:59:59.67
Enter the new time:
1092315599.73

This is a fairly fast machine (Athlon 2500+) but I really
doubt slower machines would take much longer than 1 second
unless they are *really* old.

-Peter


From ville at spammers.com  Mon Aug 23 10:49:04 2004
From: ville at spammers.com (Ville Vainio)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 17:49:04 +0300
Subject: python usage
References: <c5ff5ef5.0408230346.5406b803@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <du7pt5hoqov.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>

>>>>> "Phanish" == Phanish  <phanish.tubagere at hp.com> writes:

    Phanish> which inturns calls c++ client stubs. These stubs are
    Phanish> CORBA stubs which talk to a CORBA server residing some
    Phanish> where in the network.  I want to know as to whether it is
    Phanish> feasible to use Python or just live with c++ for UI and
    Phanish> stubs?

One thing you may not yet know is that Python absolutely rocks for
CORBA - seeing how elegant CORBA can be is one of the reasons I
decided to check out Python in the first place. OmniORB is the ORB I
would check out first if I were you...

    Phanish> Is it good to use Python for this purpose? What is the
    Phanish> advantage?

Well, you should just try implementing it in Python. Try something
like PythonCard + OmniORB combo. If you can get it done in 2 days, you
will know that you have a winner in your hands :-).

Advantages: maintainability and, deriving from that,
flexibility/modifiability. You are much more likely to even consider
modifying an existing Py program than a C++ program. C++ programs are
best left alone once they reach something resembling a functional
stage.

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb


From nzanella at cs.mun.ca  Thu Aug 19 15:23:03 2004
From: nzanella at cs.mun.ca (Neil Zanella)
Date: 19 Aug 2004 12:23:03 -0700
Subject: static class methods and data members
References: <b68d2f19.0408181247.19b434d2@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1910.1092869488.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b68d2f19.0408191123.2018be94@posting.google.com>

Phil Frost <indigo at bitglue.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1910.1092869488.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> take a look at classmethod and staticmethod with pydoc, in the docs, or
> help(). Static data members are done like so:
> 
> Class C:
>   iAmStatic = 1
>   def __init__(self):
>     self.iAmNotStatic = 2
> 
> Thinking of this in terms of "static" and "automatic" isn't the way to
> go, really. That's C's way of doing it, and it's in Java only because
> Java is nothing more than C.
> 
> Here's how it works: There are classes, and there are instances of those
> classes. Each has a namespace. when one does <instance>.name, "name" is
> located first in the instance namespace, then in the class namespace.
> 
> However, assignment is different. Assignment just looks in the instance
> namespace, and if it's not there, it creates it. Thus if one were to do
> "self.iAmStatic" in a method of C, that does not change the value of
> iAmStatic for all instances of C. However, one can do "C.iAmStatic"
> anywhere, and that will change "iAmStatic" for all instances of C that
> do not have 'iAmStatic' bound to something at the instance level.
> 
> The best way to understand this is through experimentation in the
> interactive interpreter. To make things easier, you can peek inside
> python's implementation by doing C.__dict__ or anInstanceOfC.__dict__ to
> see the dictionary that represents that namespace.

Phil,

Your explanation is so clear, it should be included in just about any
book on Python!!! Thank you so much!!!
 
> After you have absorbed this, you will probably see the use of
> classmethod, as it's not immediately apparent if you aren't familiar with
> Python. Happy hacking!

The http://www.python.org/2.2.1/descrintro.html#staticmethods you mentioned
really does contain some of the information I was missing pertaining to
classmethod and staticmethod. I wonder how come this file was not
installed on my Fedora Core 2 Linux distro. I also notice that
there is no corresponding file with the same name located at
http://www.python.org/doc/2.3.4/. The document seems to have
been removed from later Python documentation versions... how
come?

So, unlike Python classmethods which are roughly the equivalent
of C++ static class methods, Python staticmethods really know nothing about
the members of the class that encloses them and act pretty much like external
defs. So what's the advantage of a staticmethod over an external def?

The cls first argument to a Python classmethod is analogous to the self
first argument to __init__: when you say Class.cmethod() the Class instance
is passed as the first parameter to the class method, and when you say
instance = Class(), the instance being constructed is passed to __init__
as self, and when you say instance.imethod(), the instance is passed to
imethod() as the first parameter, self. The parameters cls and self are
barely named so by convention: they are not keywords in Python, unlike
say the this pointer which is a keyword in C++.

While qualification within a class is optional in languages like C++ and
Java, in Python you must always qualify instance variables with self within
instance methods, and always qualify class variables with cls within Python
class methods.

Since python static methods know nothing about a class, they are equivalent
to methods defined outside a class, except they may be called with the class
as the first argument (for no good reason).

Feedback, reclarification, or other,
on the above comments greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Neil

#!/usr/bin/python

class Foo:
  x = 0
  y = 1
  def foo(cls):
    print "classmethod: hello"
    print cls.x
  foo = classmethod(foo)
  def bar():
    print "staticmethod: hello"
    print Foo.x
  bar = staticmethod(bar)

if __name__ == "__main__":
  Foo.foo()
  Foo.bar()


From jkn at nicorp.f9.co.uk  Thu Aug 12 11:28:20 2004
From: jkn at nicorp.f9.co.uk (Jon Nicoll)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 08:28:20 -0700
Subject: compiling extension DLLs for ActiveState 2.3 (xstruct.pyd)
Message-ID: <8351bb33.0408120728.23028ddb@posting.google.com>

Hi all
    anyone know what compiler and version I should use to compile an
extension module for ActiveState Python 2.3?

<background>
quite a few years ago I used a useful Python extension module called
xstruct in a program suite. It does a similar job to what ctypes does
nowadays, AFAICT. The extension is a C file compiled to a .DLL for
windows.

It's been a few years, and I'd like to re-use the program. In the
meantime I've migrated python versions - I'm currently on ActiveState
Python 2.3. I'm assuming (admittedly without trying it ;-/) that the
.PYD won't work in this environment, and the author hasn't updated the
distribution in the meantime.
</background>

alternatively, has anyone already got xstruct already compiled for
this platform?

    Thanks a lot
    Jon N


From bitshadow at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  9 23:42:31 2004
From: bitshadow at yahoo.com (Michael Scarlett)
Date: 9 Aug 2004 20:42:31 -0700
Subject: Popular Python projects with lots of pure Python code
References: <mailman.1418.1092088893.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnchfvom.t6.t_therkelsen@abattoir.2-10.org>
Message-ID: <ce6aaec0.0408091942.7186d79d@posting.google.com>

Troels Therkelsen <t_therkelsen at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<slrnchfvom.t6.t_therkelsen at abattoir.2-10.org>...
> In article <mailman.1418.1092088893.5135.python-list at python.org>, Brett C. wrote:
> >[/snipped]
> > 
> > Any suggestions?
yeah, why don't you go to sourcforge and search under python projects,
you'll get a ton


From timr at probo.com  Fri Aug 20 00:30:52 2004
From: timr at probo.com (Tim Roberts)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:30:52 -0700
Subject: html templates
References: <mailman.1998.1092968486.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <23vai09725mmg69tg3ji8d0dpi1mgd7fak@4ax.com>

Ajay <abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au> wrote:
>
>i am looking for a framework to create a fast dynamic website. between
>using Cheetah and HTMLTemplate which would you recommend?

This is such a personal decision.  It really depends on what appears to
you.

I like Cheetah's templating language a lot.  I use Webware as my web app
server, but I use Cheetah for doing the templates instead of the Webware
PSP.

For a small dynamic site, however, I could learn to like CherryPy as well.
You compile the whole web site along with a simple web server into a single
script.

>also quixote offers a session management API? how secure is this session
>management? is it just a cookie on the client side?

"Just" a cookie?  How would you do session management more securely?
-- 
- Tim Roberts, timr at probo.com
  Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.


From webraviteja at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 03:33:19 2004
From: webraviteja at yahoo.com (Ravi Teja Bhupatiraju)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 00:33:19 -0700
Subject: Proposal for removing self
References: <T_7Xc.61360$Fg5.2281@attbi_s53>
Message-ID: <b74e43f1.0408252333.48074974@posting.google.com>

"Brent W. Hughes" <brent.hughes at comcast.net> wrote in message news:<T_7Xc.61360$Fg5.2281 at attbi_s53>...
> When doing object-oriented stuff, it bothers me to have to type "self" so
> many times.  I propose that Python allow the programmer to optionally type
> ".variable" instead of "self.variable" to mean the same thing.  Of course,
> the interpreter would have to be more careful about detecting floats that
> begin with just a period as in ".5".  What are your thoughts?

I know that this has been proposed before and am familiar with the
alternatives commonly suggested. I understand that most Python
programmers are happy with things the way they are in this respect.
But after 3 years of Python, somehow, I still keep forgetting to type
the darn thing. Of course, I always  catch the omission quickly but
that makes me wish there was a better alternative. Python has
generally been about less typing and self seems somewhat contrary to
that.

This following is not a carefully thought one but I would be
interested to know what your opinions are. The following is inspired
by win32all.

<from Python COM  docs>
class HelloWorld:
    _public_methods_ = ['Hello']
    _public_attrs_ = ['softspace', 'noCalls']
    _readonly_attrs_ = ['noCalls']
   
    def __init__(self):
        pass
</from Python COM  docs>

How about having an optional attribute for a class that negates the
requirement for self?

One advantage with this is I can see all the member variables in one
place. Great while reading code.

<sample>
class FooBar:
    __public__ = [Name, Age]
    def setName(name):
        Name = name
</sample>

While I am complaining, a few other peeves ...

Another thing is I dislike is having to use __ for *every* private
variable. For *me* __private__ at the top of the class definition code
would be more elegant. __readonly__ would be another nicety.

Introducing the above attributes into the language would not likely
break any existing Python code.

Just my 2c.


From artur_spruce at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 10 06:28:41 2004
From: artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 03:28:41 -0700
Subject: Importance of C# (was Re: IronPython-0.6 is now available!)
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>	<ce9cp3$g39$1@bagan.srce.hr>	<5dydnZSDZaARoZXcRVn-ug@powergate.ca>	<gmint1-db3.ln1@lairds.us>	<9418be08.0407292114.129c856f@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1318.1091832179.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<aZOdnamc0Pt9k4ncRVn-sg@powergate.ca>
	<b840abf4.0408070120.2321e219@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <b840abf4.0408100228.6c9ead51@posting.google.com>

artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR) wrote in message news:<b840abf4.0408070120.2321e219 at posting.google.com>...
> Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message news:<aZOdnamc0Pt9k4ncRVn-sg at powergate.ca>...
> > <snip>
> > Language comparison is a hard thing: what happens when you
> > pick a test case that can be handled much more easily in
> > one language than in another?  Do you pick a new test case,
> > or write inefficient code that no programmer experienced in that
> > language would actually write?   I'm not sure of the answer...
> 
> Well, for me the most interesting test would be to actually use all
> features available in each of the compared languages. So, if the
> standard distribution of a given language includes a library to do a
> task, use that library. If there is a syntax feature that makes things
> easier, use that too. And so on...
> 
> I think this is far more useful in real life than just plain
> interpreter/compiled code speed comparison.
> <snip>

>From another thread, with minor correction:

An interesting comparison, if you want to check it for yourself, is
one between the unittest module and what is described on this page:

http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-building-a-unit-test-framework.html

Both approaches are based on commonly used features and coding style
of their respective languages. I think this is good example of how
language vs. language comparisons should be done.

AdSR


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Sun Aug 29 00:23:45 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 04:23:45 GMT
Subject: If the string module is deprecated...
Message-ID: <lTcYc.42310$v86.13422@fe2.texas.rr.com>

... what will become of the module-level constants, such as uppercase,
digits, hexdigits, etc.?  Will they become class-level constants of the str
class?

-- Paul




From gumuz at NO_looze_SPAM.net  Tue Aug 17 12:00:34 2004
From: gumuz at NO_looze_SPAM.net (Guyon Morée)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 18:00:34 +0200
Subject: firefox extension
Message-ID: <41230bcc$0$3897$4d4ebb8e@news.nl.uu.net>

is it possible to create a firefox extension in python?




From beliavsky at 127.0.0.1  Tue Aug 10 12:24:57 2004
From: beliavsky at 127.0.0.1 (beliavsky@aol.com)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 11:24:57 -0500
Subject: pro python paper
References: <305aa162.0408091905.5bce8f9a@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1449.1092146303.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4118f6d9_1@127.0.0.1>


Heiko Wundram <heikowu at ceosg.de> wrote:

>You won't call C++ or Fortran 95 high-level languages, will you? ;) For
me, 
>the border between low-level programming and high-level programming lies

>where memory management becomes automatic.

It depends on the area. The Python LANGUAGE does not have multdimensional
arrays with slices and intrinsic functions, but Fortran 90/95 does and can
be considered a higher-level language for numerical work. Of course, the
Numeric and Numarray Python modules do provide this functionality. 

There is a question of whether one should include common libraries when comparing
the functionality of various languages.

Allocatable arrays in Fortran 95 are automatically deallocated when they
go out of scope, so memory management is mostly automatic.



----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Sat Aug  7 15:32:24 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 07 Aug 2004 21:32:24 +0200
Subject: PEP 263 spec (was: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's)
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no> <4112AC7B.1060508@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806egka@bombur.uio.no> <411343D7.3020604@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806c08y@bombur.uio.no> <411353A3.8090502@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806beaz@bombur.uio.no> <4113759E.2070405@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806rjgh@bombur.uio.no> <4113E755.8060205@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806qxkg@bombur.uio.no> <41140349.6090202@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040807efro_-_@bombur.uio.no>

Martin v. L?wis wrote:
>Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
>
>> - For a number of source encodings (like utf-8:-) it should be easy
>>   to parse and charset-convert in the same step, and only convert
>>   selected parts of the source to Unicode.
>
> Correct. However, that it works "for a number of source encodings"
> is insufficient - if it doesn't work for all of them, it only 
> unreasonably complicates the code.

For UTF-8 source, the complication might simply be to not call a charset
conversion routine.  For some other character sets - well, fixing the
problem below would probably introduce that complication anyway.

> For some source encodings (namely the CJK ones), conversion to UTF-8
> is absolutely necessary even for proper lexical analysis, as the
> byte that represents a backslash in ASCII might be the first byte
> of a two-byte sequence.

No.  It's necessary to convert the source file to logical characters
and feed those to the parser in some way, and conversion to UTF-8 in
a simple way to do that.

I think the 'right way', as far as source character set handling is
concerned, would be to have the source reader and the language parser
cooperate:  The reader translates the source file to logical source
characters which it feeds to the parser (UTF-8 is fine for that), and
the parser notifies the reader when it sees the start and end of a
source character string which should be given to the parser in its
original form (by some other means than feeding it to the parser as if
it was charset-converted source code, of course).

Now, that might conflict with Python's design goals, if it is supposed
to be possible to keep the reading and parsing steps separate.  Or it
might just take more effort to rearrange the code than anyone is
interested in doing.  But in either case it still looks like a bug to
me, even if it's at best a low-priority one.

>> - I think the spec is buggy anyway.  Converting to Unicode and back
>>   can change the string representation.  But I'll file a separate
>>   bug report for that.
> 
> That is by design. The only effect of such a bug report will be that
> the documentation clearly clarifies that.

OK, I'll make it a doc bug.

-- 
Hallvard


From Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com  Mon Aug 23 13:15:11 2004
From: Andreas.Ames at tenovis.com (Ames Andreas (MPA/DF))
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:15:11 +0200
Subject: [Q] Bug in cgi.FieldStorage?
Message-ID: <788E231C269961418F38D3E360D1652526CA30@tndefr-ws00021.tenovis.corp.lan>

Hello,

Tim Roberts wrote:

>>if fs:
>>   ...
>
> What question do you intuitively expect that statement to be asking?

class Request:
      def __init__(self, fs = None)
          if fs:
             self._fs = fs
          else:
             self._fs = FieldStorage(...)

      def retry(self):
          return self.__class__(self._fs)

Something like that.  I cannot say why, but I find it somewhat odd
that

if fs:

can throw a TypeError.  OTOH, that might be my C heritage:

char *ptr = 0;
...
if (ptr) {
   ...
}

FWIW, there are some more things I don't like about cgi.FieldStorage:

1) Tryig sometimes to be a list and a file at other times is a bit
   confusing for me as a user.

2) Doing the whole parsing from within the constructor isn't very
   nice, for example for derivations.

3) Calling the constructor directly from read_multipart prevents me
   from specifying custom constructor arguments.  I'd prefer an
   overwriteable factory method.


cheers,

andreas



From pit.grinja at gmx.de  Sun Aug 29 12:50:40 2004
From: pit.grinja at gmx.de (Piet)
Date: 29 Aug 2004 09:50:40 -0700
Subject: Installation of mod_python 3.1.3 on Apache 2.0.50 on Windows
	Me/Win2k
Message-ID: <39cbe663.0408290850.14452ab9@posting.google.com>

Hi there,
I cannot install mod_python v3.1.3 on either Win2k/ActivePython 2.3.2
or WinMe/Python 2.3.4. When I run the Windows installer, I get the
following error message:
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "C:\Programme\Python23\Scripts\win32_postinstall.py", line 86,
in ?
    apachediroptions = getApacheDirOptions()
  File "C:\Programme\Python23\Scripts\win32_postinstall.py", line 45,
in getApacheDirOptions
    apachekey = regkey(win32con.HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE,
"Software").childkey("Apache Group").childkey("Apache")
  File "C:\Programme\Python23\Scripts\win32_postinstall.py", line 34,
in childkey
    return regkey(self.key, subkeyname)
  File "C:\Programme\Python23\Scripts\win32_postinstall.py", line 32,
in __init__
    self.key = win32api.RegOpenKey(parent, subkeyname)
pywintypes.error: (2, 'RegOpenKeyEx', 'Das System kann die angegebene
Datei nicht finden.')
Exception exceptions.AttributeError: "regkey instance has no attribute
'key'" in <bound method regkey.__del__ of <__main__.regkey instance at
0x00CF1440>> ignored
*** run_installscript: internal error 0xFFFFFFFF ***
I checked the registry and found that the key mentioned in the error
message does indeed not exist. Is this a failure in my apache
configuration/installation or is the installation package of
mod_python incorrect? Are there any experiences with the
abovementioned configuration?
Thanx in advance
Peter


From mwh at python.net  Mon Aug 23 10:49:41 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:49:41 GMT
Subject: __name__ becoming read-write?
References: <uutji0h87t24cb1nej03gdggs0hg6eno3l@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <m3hdqtkiyj.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> writes:

> Did I hallucinate something about __name__ becoming read-write?

For functions?  No, you didn't hallucinate that.

> Not in alpha2.

Indeed.  The changes were only checked in a couple of weeks ago.
They'll be in alpha3.

> Can't find the reference to this I thought I read - that it was
> concluded to be necessary in connection with PEP318.

It's something that's been nagging at me for ages, but it was a PEP
318-related comment that finally prodded me into writing the patch.

> Better get my facts straight first....

Glad to be of service <wink>!

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  I've reinvented the idea of variables and types as in a
  programming language, something I do on every project.
                                          -- Greg Ward, September 1998


From daniel at dittmar.net  Tue Aug  3 14:31:26 2004
From: daniel at dittmar.net (Daniel Dittmar)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 20:31:26 +0200
Subject: PyQT tutorial
In-Reply-To: <410f8d35$0$31408$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
References: <410f8d35$0$31408$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <ceolmu$smr$1@news.eusc.inter.net>

Olivier Thiery wrote:
> Do you know any good  and fairly complete tutorial about PyQT, Eric and
> QtDesigner ?

A book about Python programming qith Qt is available online at 
http://www.opendocspublishing.com/pyqt/

Daniel


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 21 17:04:03 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 17:04:03 -0400
Subject: __metaclass__ and __author__ are already decorators
In-Reply-To: <2opp6gFdg3e7U1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <mailman.2107.1093099087.5135.python-list@python.org>	<2opgsoFd7807U1@uni-berlin.de>	<mailman.2116.1093113995.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2opp6gFdg3e7U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <cg8dc4$r8r$8@sea.gmane.org>

Leif K-Brooks wrote:
> Paul Morrow wrote:
> 
>> We just need to stop thinking of them as local function variables. 
>> Instead we should think of __xxx__ attributes as describing the 
>> function itself (i.e. as a decorator would), as I believe that is 
>> almost always the author's intention when he/she uses such names 
>> inside of a function/method definition.  He wants to say something 
>> about the function (who wrote it, it's version, etc.), and is probably 
>> sad that it has the side-effect of creating a local variable.  So it 
>> probably shouldn't have that side-effect anymore.  It should create a 
>> function attribute instead (not to be confused with a local variable).
> 
> 
> Which is, like I said, assigning new meaning to an old syntax. That 
> seems confusing to me; why not just create a new syntax?

Because it's not needed and would make the language more complex.

And I don't agree that this would be assigning new 'meaning' to an old 
syntax.  When a programmer creates a __xxx__ class attribute, he is not 
trying to create a normal 'class' attribute --- one the is inherited by 
instances of the class or that holds part of the 'state' of the class. 
Instead, he is trying to make a meta statement about the class (who 
wrote it, what happens during instance initialization, etc.).  In that 
sense, the meaning associated with defining __xxx__ attributes would 
stay the same.



From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 02:17:16 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:17:16 +1000
Subject: J2 decorator grammar
In-Reply-To: <tQfWc.9697$Jn5.3584@fe1.texas.rr.com>
References: <mailman.2130.1093134487.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<2orckjFdtljaU1@uni-berlin.de> <tQfWc.9697$Jn5.3584@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082223172de90259@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 06:07:21 GMT, Paul McGuire
<ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> wrote:
> I'm liking "per" or "using".

A couple of issues with 'per':

It's a bit _too_ cute. In addition, people who don't have English as a native
language might find it tricky. 

It is too confusable with 'pre'.

'using' works ok for me.


From pwmiller1 at adelphia.net  Tue Aug 17 17:03:42 2004
From: pwmiller1 at adelphia.net (Paul Miller)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 14:03:42 -0700
Subject: Is it possible to write a DLL using python
References: <cft24m$njb$1@news-reader2.wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <2e363c08.0408171234.5ceaf1c7@posting.google.com>

AMD <amdescombes at qualicontrol.com> wrote in message news:<cft24m$njb$1 at news-reader2.wanadoo.fr>...
 
> I need to write a Win32 DLL and I would like to use Python instead of 
> VB, C++ or Delphi. Is this possible?

No.  It is possible to interface to and from Python via other
languages, but since Python does not create native code, you cannot
create a DLL with it.


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug 20 06:36:05 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 06:36:05 -0400
Subject: Rita Sue and Bob too
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2010.1092985999.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2010.1092985999.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4125D415.7040403@engcorp.com>

Ben Last wrote:

>>From Peter Hansen
>>
>>>But, how to I find a sequence in a list of unknown size? i.e.
>>>this sequence in list of other names and replace it with three others?
>>>
>>>'Rita','Sue','Bob'
>>>
>>>This is almost a nightly occurrence (my posting questions), but I am
>>>learning : )

Actually, that wasn't quite me who wrote those words... I merely
quoted them from the OP.

(Ben, I don't think you need to post to both the python-list _and_
the comp.lang.python newsgroup: they mirror each other already!)

-Peter


From skip at pobox.com  Mon Aug 30 11:35:14 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:35:14 -0500
Subject: Problems running coverage.py
In-Reply-To: <cguip4$pcf$1@news.mch.sbs.de>
References: <cguip4$pcf$1@news.mch.sbs.de>
Message-ID: <16691.18738.73177.820009@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Vijay> For a particular script which uses 'exit' calls, I am getting the
    Vijay> following error when I invoke the script with the -x option for
    Vijay> coverage.

    Vijay> Error in sys.exitfunc:
    Vijay> Traceback (most recent call last):
    Vijay>   File "D:\Python23\lib\atexit.py", line 20, in _run_exitfuncs
    Vijay>     func(*targs, **kargs)
    Vijay>   File "D:\Python23\Lib\site-packages\coverage.py", line 207, in save
    Vijay>     cache = open(self.cache, 'wb')
    Vijay> TypeError: an integer is required

    Vijay> Looks like coverage.py is not able to record the coverage data on
    Vijay> calling exit.  Does anybody know how to solve this?

Just a wild-ass guess, but I suspect there's a module imported like

    from somemodule import *

which dumped an "open" symbol into the global namespace, thus hiding the
open() builtin.  You might try adding this line

    print open

right before the call to open() to see if you're getting the builtin open or
not.

-- 
Skip Montanaro
Got spam? http://www.spambayes.org/
skip at pobox.com


From walter at livinglogic.de  Wed Aug 11 06:09:01 2004
From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 12:09:01 +0200
Subject: Parsing broken HTML via Mozilla
In-Reply-To: <slrnchich8.18u.-$P-W$-@pome.noctua.org.uk>
References: <mailman.1413.1092080863.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnchich8.18u.-$P-W$-@pome.noctua.org.uk>
Message-ID: <4119F03D.9050605@livinglogic.de>

Paul Wright wrote:

> In article <mailman.1413.1092080863.5135.python-list at python.org>, Walter
> D?rwald wrote:
> 
>>I'm trying to parse broken HTML with several Python tools.
>>Unfortunately none of them work 100% reliable. Problems are e.g.
>>nested comments, bare "&" in URLs and "<" in text (e.g. "if foo <
>>bar") etc.
> 
> Not a Mozilla solution, but I hear good things about
> http://www.crummy.com/software/BeautifulSoup/

I already tried that, but it completely ignores encoding issues
and it passes broken entity references (e.g. bare & in URLs) along
literally. Furthermore its support for DTD aware HTML parsing
is not complete (e.g. <link> is not handled as an empty tag).

Bye,
    Walter D?rwald




From roy at panix.com  Wed Aug  4 12:27:12 2004
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 12:27:12 -0400
Subject: How to force a single number to be a tuple
References: <mailman.1138.1091636758.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-6EC9F2.12271204082004@reader1.panix.com>

In article <mailman.1138.1091636758.5135.python-list at python.org>,
 "Jinming Xu" <cybermanxu at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Folks,
> 
> I have a number sequence, which is put into a tuple like this:
> 
> y=2, 3.0, 4.5
> 
> I can manipulate the sequence as a tuple when it has more than 1 number. But 
> when the sequence has only 1 number, like
> 
> y=2
> 
> I have trouble to manipulate it as a tuple.  I guess there must be a way to 
> forece a single number to be a tuple. Could anyone please tell me that?

You're going to get a zillion responses to this one.

The syntax is a bit funky:

y = (2,)


From follower at gmail.com  Mon Aug  2 15:04:41 2004
From: follower at gmail.com (Follower)
Date: 2 Aug 2004 12:04:41 -0700
Subject: ANN: libgmail 0.0.7 - Gmail access via Python - Now with FTP Proxy!
Message-ID: <mailman.1130.1091629649.5135.python-announce-list@python.org>

libgmail -- Python binding for Google's Gmail service

<http://libgmail.sf.net/>

The `libgmail` project is a pure Python binding to provide access to
Google's Gmail web-mail service.

The library currently ships with a demonstration utility to archive
messages from a Gmail account into mbox files, suitable for importing
into a local email client.

Also includes a demonstration utility that acts as a SMTP proxy to
allow mail to be sent from any standard mail client that uses SMTP
(e.g. Mail.app, Mozilla etc). (Now handles attachments.)

New demonstration utility to provide access to Gmail message
attachments via a download-only FTP proxy--this allows retrieval of
suitably marked attachments by a standard FTP client. Utilize more
of your Gmail space!

License: GPL 2.0 (gmailftpd.py is dual licensed with PSF)

Major changes since 0.0.6:

 * Demo FTP proxy enables marked Gmail message attachments to be
   download via FTP.

 * Implemented sending & receiving of message attachments. 

 * Updated SMTP Proxy demo to handle sending attachments.

 * Added 'getMessagesByQuery' function.

Major changes since 0.0.5: (Repeated from last announcement)

 * Implemented SMTP proxy to enable Gmail to be send with a
    standard mail client via (E)SMTP. 

 * Extended standard SMTP class to handle ESMTP EHLO & AUTH PLAIN commands.

 * Utility function '_retrieveJavascript' to retrieve current version
   of Gmail Javascript file. (By request.)


<p><a href="http://libgmail.sf.net/">libgmail 0.0.7</a> - The
`libgmail` project is a pure Python binding to provide access to
Google's Gmail web-mail service; includes SMTP & FTP
proxies. (03-Aug-04)</p>


From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Mon Aug 23 18:59:21 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:59:21 -0700
Subject: Py2Exe  and Threading
References: <81a41dd.0408231216.6f919ff4@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <3i9qv1-mh7.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

Lad wrote:
> Does anyone use Py2exe for a script that uses threading modul.
> In have a main thread and another in which I use smtplib to send email
> while the main thread is running.
> Under Python it works well but after compilation into exe it hangs(
> freezes) in the thread where I send email with smtplib.

Tell py2exe it is a console application and see if that makes a
difference.  When you tell py2exe that it is a windowed (ie non-
console) app, then the stdout you get is actually a 4k buffer
that throws various exceptions when it fills.

Roger 




From john.thingstad at chello.no  Fri Aug 27 08:30:25 2004
From: john.thingstad at chello.no (John Thingstad)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:30:25 +0200
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <opsdd40znlpqzri1@mjolner.upc.no>

I think I just hit the 'wall'.
rlol

On 25 Aug 2004 14:56:06 -0700, Xah Lee <xah at xahlee.org> wrote:

> Larry Wall and Cults
> (Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
> 200012
>
> Dear readers,
>
> Did you know that throughout history there's this thing called cult?
> It is a very interesting phenomenon. I don't have time to expound and
> teach, but will try to brief you.
>
> These cults, are often lead by a single person. They form a group as
> small as a dozen to multinational octopuses (such as
> Scientology). Their creed varies from the mild in appearance
> (Dianetics) to appalling (flat earth, extraordinary life-after-death,
> impinging apocalypse scenarios, militant anti-government conspiracy,
> diabolism with human sacrifices ...). Don't think that i'm citing from
> some arcane books buried in libraries. These are real, and not
> difficult to find in real life. Some of these cult leaders, are so
> able to totally wash their member's brain, as to have them
> autonomously swear and volunteer to die for the cause of the cult.
> Occasionally, you'll even see mass suicide.
>
> You know, the world is not made completely of rubes. Somebody
> somewhere, will observe this phenomenon and study or report it as
> is. Big brother organizations, such as the FBI, is keen on these and
> very interested in benefiting from social psychology themselves. They
> are recorded in books too. Ever wonder why the library houses so many
> cold volumes of paper? This is one contributing reason. You might be
> interested to verify that sometimes.
>
> These brain-washing phenomenon, are not limited to fanatical
> life-and-death or otherwise dire beliefs. You see it work in all
> manners of human thought in the general sense. From culture formation
> to fashion to commercialism.  Surely you have heard of Adolf Hitler
> and his atrocities of genocide? I must alert you, that a single person
> couldn't commit such a crime. You see, even if you are superman, you
> can only kill few at a time. You see, it is the people, people like
> you and me, who commit the killings willingly, by Hitler's
> teaching. You may say: "no, i won't ever do such stupid thing", well
> because you are very ignorant about social psychology. It is precisely
> innocent people like you and (not) me, who were lead by the radical
> leaders of supreme brain-washing abilities. The innocent mob were
> fervent in their leader's vision and beliefs to commit anything. You
> know the concept of war, right? We have two massive body of people
> committed to cut off other people's head or otherwise stick a knife in
> their bodies or bomb off an arm or leg. How did that happen? Well, it
> starts with patriotism for people like you and (not) me.
>
> Now, back to topic. In the computing world, there're also bad seeds
> with colorful creed taking innocent mobs forming cults. The three
> principal virtues of a programmer are Laziness, Impatience, and
> Hubris. Yes?
>
> How can we prevent heinous cults then? Stop bending truths. Education
> and rationalism. I'm starting my own cult to exterminate morons on
> this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl.
>
> --------
> This post is archived at
>  http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/larry_wall_n_cults.html
>
> Copyright 2000-2004 Xah Lee. Verbatim Reproduction for non-commercial
> purposes is hereby granted provided proper credit is given.
>
>  Xah
>  xah at xahlee.org
>  http://xahlee.org/PageTwo_dir/more.html



-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/


From nobody at nowhere.com  Wed Aug 25 05:18:22 2004
From: nobody at nowhere.com (Fred)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:18:22 +0200
Subject: Building basic dialog in Windows?
References: <bp0ni09fofpahse8uoa4l3hdmq5lmi61rr@4ax.com>
	<3tGdnSTFgOnIArbcRVn-pQ@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <eamoi09mhlul4i57jlms4iv1ikf3ltub9b@4ax.com>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 15:04:38 -0500, "Larry Bates"
<lbates at swamisoft.com> wrote:
(snip)

Thx Larry :-)

Fred.


From bokr at oz.net  Fri Aug  6 20:13:50 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 7 Aug 2004 00:13:50 GMT
Subject: elements of decorator syntax suggestions
References: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1298.1091815362.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cf16ru$2lq$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 04:02:36 +1000, Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
>This is an excellent list! Thanks for doing it. I've made a couple of notes
>inline about the particular points.
+1 on the info format of the post

>
>On 6 Aug 2004 10:19:21 -0700, Steven Bethard <steven.bethard at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I think one of the biggest reasons we're having such problems coming
>> to any agreement on decorator syntax is that each proposal makes a
>> number of syntax decisions, not just one.  For decorators, I see the
>> following decisions that must be made:
>> 
>> 1) Indicator
>> Proposals differ on how some sort of indicator of "decoratorhood" is
>> use.  These include:
>> * none (e.g. just the list, as in the "list-after-def" suggestion)
>> * the '@' character
>> * a new keyword (with, using, decorate, etc.)
>
what about a builtin name? or does that count as a keyword?

>This is the biggy, it seems. Current (as of a couple of hours ago) 
>discussions on python-dev are discussing other alternatives instead
>of @, that will hopefully make it easier for IPython or Leo to cope 
>for now (but note that in the future, some other use for @ might be
>found, so anyone relying on it at the moment might want to think 
>about that). One current suggestion is to use the | character, instead.
>
>> 2) Location
>> Proposals also differ on exactly where the decorator declaration
>> should be made.  These include:
>> * before def
>
>Short of someone producing a _very_ strong argument in favour of
>another form, this is almost certainly going to be the choice.
>
>> * between def and function name
>
>Breaks too many tools, as well as stupid humans who are used to seeing
>def functionname.
>
>> * between function name and argument list
>
>I'm not sure that this was ever popular, with anyone ;)
>
>> * between argument list and colon
>
>Guido's ruled this out (see previous posts, I put a link to his post
>outlining why.
>
>> * after colon (first line in body)
>
>A problem here is interaction with docstrings?
>
>
>> 3) List notation
>> As I understand it, it's already decided that any implementation of
>> decorators must allow for a list of decorators to be applied.  So
>> proposals that might be accepted must explain how this can be done.
>> The options I've seen:
>> * one per line (as currently)
>
>There's some confusion as to how the one-per-line thing is ordered. I find
>it quite obvious, but I've been playing with this for a week now, so it might
>just be that I know the answer now. Simply - 
>
>@decA
>@decB
>@decC
>def func():
>
>is equivalent to 
>
>func = decA(decB(decC(func)))
>
Looks to me like the semantics is

    __magic_internal_list.append(decA)
    __magic_internal_list.append(decB)
    __magic_internal_list.append(decC)
    def func(): pass
    while _magic_internal_list: func = __magic_internal_list.pop()(func)

why not go with a little sugar like
    __builtins__.decorate = __magic_internal_list.append

and then
    decorate(decA)
    decorate(decB)
    decorate(decC)
    def func(): pass
    # (automatic trigger of the while statement above, after the def)

Of course, I think more interesting things can be done along with that bare minimum,
but even this minimal implementation at least avoids such a narrow commitment for '@'.
BTW, even if __magic_internal_list were per-thread, wouldn't one need guidelines at
least for writing wrappers safely? What does current @decorator do?

>
>An excellent list! If you don't mind, I might steal this format for the PEP. 
>It allows for a lot more alternatives to be covered off in a smaller space
>(since many proposals are minor variations on an existing proposal, and
>share the same problems).
+1 on that ;-)

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From noone at here.com  Wed Aug 18 22:45:47 2004
From: noone at here.com (M. Clift)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 03:45:47 +0100
Subject: get last two in a length of unknown length?
Message-ID: <cg1494$lvr$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>

Hi All,

I have a list of varying length. Would someone know the way to get the last
two values for this? I can see how this is done with a list that I know the
length of, but not one thats generated by user input.

Thanks for any help




From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Thu Aug  5 13:54:32 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:54:32 -0400
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <eppstein-15F2C0.10352205082004@news.service.uci.edu>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<opsb9g3hjudgjose@mail.yahoo.it>
	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051213180.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1203.1091724074.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051258000.10473-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<eppstein-15F2C0.10352205082004@news.service.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051353150.11711-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, David Eppstein wrote:

> If this is an actual possibility, there's nothing preventing you from 
> wrapping a decorated def inside a try-except block.

And then being forced to duplicate the function definition.  The way
around this is, of course, to decorate manually, but then your decorators
are segmented (some at the top of the function, some at the bottom).



From gandalf at geochemsource.com  Tue Aug 31 09:23:13 2004
From: gandalf at geochemsource.com (Gandalf)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 15:23:13 +0200
Subject: has_method
In-Reply-To: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C78AD@escpl.tcp.com.ar>
References: <A128D751272CD411BC9200508BC2194D053C78AD@escpl.tcp.com.ar>
Message-ID: <41347BC1.5020407@geochemsource.com>


>#- Does anyone knows how to tell if an object has a method with a given
>#- name? How can I access that method?
>
>  
>
>>>>class C:
>>>>        
>>>>
>        def mymeth(self):
>                return
>
>       
>  
>
>>>>c = C()
>>>>dir(c)
>>>>        
>>>>
>['__doc__', '__module__', 'mymeth']
>  
>
>>>>c.mymeth
>>>>        
>>>>
><bound method C.mymeth of <__main__.C instance at 0x009ACBC0>>
>  
>
You are right - I only used dir() interactively. I have the answer, how 
to check.
But how can I access that method? I would like to call it by name. :-)

Best,

   Laci 2.0

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From tim.peters at gmail.com  Tue Aug 10 19:05:45 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 19:05:45 -0400
Subject: measuring 1/100th seconds, what function?
In-Reply-To: <pan.2004.08.10.21.16.01.728029@yahoo.com>
References: <pan.2004.08.10.21.16.01.728029@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1f7befae0408101605657688a0@mail.gmail.com>

[Jonas K?lker]
> I'm doing a Rubik's Cube timer, so I need a function to measure
> 100ths of a second. ...

Assuming you want to compute wall-time deltas (as opposed to CPU-time
deltas), about the best you can do x-platform is

if sys.platform == "win32":
    from time import clock as now
else:
    from time import time as now

Then use now().  Unsure which branch Cygwin should take.  It's up to
you to determine whether it works "well enough" on each platform you
care about.  Note that on a box connected to a network time-correction
service, time.time can appear to "run backwards" briefly at
unpredictable times.  The same kind of thing can happen on multi-CPU
boxes -- or not, depending on piles of platform details.


From elbertlev at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 13 13:40:27 2004
From: elbertlev at hotmail.com (Elbert Lev)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 10:40:27 -0700
Subject: Pyhton Interpreter Startup time
References: <mailman.1556.1092304607.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <9418be08.0408130940.181a01ea@posting.google.com>

Neil Benn <benn at cenix-bioscience.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1556.1092304607.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> Hello,
> 
>           I'm looking at a small app which would need a very quick 
> startup time for the Python interpreter...

On Windows you would be better of running your application as a
service. In this case you do not care about startup time. It can
automatically look for files you need or could have gui interface
(f.e. tray icon with menu).


From listserver at tdw.net  Fri Aug 27 06:39:53 2004
From: listserver at tdw.net (Tim Williams)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:39:53 +0100
Subject: DNS.DiscoverNameServer query
References: <mailman.2436.1093533260.5135.python-list@python.org><cgl33g$1oh@odah37.prod.google.com>
	<kh2ui0l3atukk67t863h9raokqpact5ifb@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <003301c48c22$2fed15e0$506b81c2@twilliams>

(Relative Newbie)

How can I see which nameservers a  DNS.DiscoverNameServera()  finds?

I have googled

TIA


From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 11 21:01:50 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 21:01:50 -0400
Subject: PEP-0318
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1538.1092263133.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <41122FC2.1080608@interlink.com.au><mailman.1251.1091764482.5135.python-list@python.org><4114152f@nntp.zianet.com>	<aIOdnRybBucMsIncRVn-gA@comcast.com><4116bc20$1@nntp.zianet.com><mailman.1369.1092015284.5135.python-list@python.org><c8neh0t41km1h79ufo4vkrhh78dt27vlok@4ax.com><6NCdncg4ssq28orcRVn-uQ@powergate.ca><fkteh0pvalomnrm7tk8ial4sgjaj9jjkj8@4ax.com>	<411a5cee$1@nntp.zianet.com><mailman.1518.1092247596.5135.python-list@python.org>	<411a9a7f$1@nntp.zianet.com>
	<mailman.1538.1092263133.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <411ac17f@nntp.zianet.com>

Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> Mark Bottjer wrote:
>> Fredrik Lundh wrote:
>>>calling a function with an argument?  that's a pretty common
>>>operation, if you're asking me
>>
>>Indeed it is. And that fact bears on this conversion how?
> 
> that's what a decorator does, of course.

No it isn't. A decorator queues a function to be called, on something 
not yet defined, after that something gets defined. "Calling a function" 
is what we do now; decorators as they stand do something very different, 
even if it has the same net effect.

 > what part of your own post did you not understand?

*sigh*

   -- Mark


From ronaldoussoren at mac.com  Wed Aug 25 13:52:31 2004
From: ronaldoussoren at mac.com (Ronald Oussoren)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:52:31 +0200
Subject: PEP318: radical notion
In-Reply-To: <d3247b7a.0408241413.55b34cb2@posting.google.com>
References: <Xns954E72EC48C5Earienmalecyahoocom@64.164.98.51>
	<412a4222$0$293$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<d3247b7a.0408241413.55b34cb2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <89A8AD66-F6BF-11D8-8765-000A95C77748@mac.com>


On 25-aug-04, at 0:13, Arien Malec wrote:

>
> Is there a valid use case that supports arbitrary magical non-metadata
> transformations of standalone functions?

Barray Warsaw has mentioned several times on py-dev that he has 
actually used several of the propesed syntaxes to rewrite existing code 
that uses decorators (IIRC mailman).

Ronald



From jjl at pobox.com  Thu Aug 12 16:12:35 2004
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J. Lee)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 21:12:35 +0100
Subject: ClientCookie
References: <6f402501.0408110018.1e4e5ca8@posting.google.com>
	<6f402501.0408120352.680496bc@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <87ekmcp13g.fsf@pobox.com>

fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord) writes:
[...]
> Ok, I've got somewhere.
> I'm now using the 0.9 version and I found the debugging section in the
> docs.
> 
> I'm using the example from the docs - but I'm pickling a list of the
> pickles rather than using the load and save methods (as the docs
> suggest) because I get an NotImplemented error for the save method (so
> what use is the load method ?).

I suppose you're trying to use FileCookieJar.  That's an abstract base
class.  In other words, you're not supposed to use it directly.
You're supposed to use one of its subclasses, such as LWPCookieJar,
MSIECookieJar or MozillaCookieJar.  The standard meaning of
NotImplementedError is not "oops, I haven't got round to that", but
rather "don't do that; use a subclass instead".

MSIECookieJar can't save cookies because the format used by Windows
isn't documented (there is an API function, but I don't use it).

[...]
> and I'm now seeing persistent cookies..... hurrah.......
> Can I save each cookie as a line of text ? Would that work with the
> load method ?

Yes.  Use LWPCookieJar.


> Anyway - now I need to learn about server side cookies so that I can
> give each user an 'id'

Have a look at some of the Python web frameworks.


> and also write code to clean up unused cookie
> files...
[...]

Either

 - simply always have one file per user, and persist it by whatever
   means you like (LWPCookieJar, pickling,
   outfile.write('\n'.join([repr(c) for c in cookiejar])),
   whatever...)

or

 - write a CookieJar that hides its implementation in terms of
   multiple files (and implements .clear_expired_cookies(), etc.).
   Probably not a good idea.


John


From artur_spruce at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 08:57:28 2004
From: artur_spruce at yahoo.com (AdSR)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 05:57:28 -0700
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
References: <mailman.1989.1092960560.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<AugVc.4535$Jn5.4362@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <b840abf4.0408200457.1cd7e06e@posting.google.com>

"Paul McGuire" <ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com> wrote in message news:<AugVc.4535$Jn5.4362 at fe1.texas.rr.com>...
<snip>
> BTW, where are all the votes for option "A"?  Where are all the people who
> hated it but now like it?

I, for one, changed my mind from none to C1 to A1 over time. Here's my
vote:

A1 C1 C3(*)

(*) My version of C3 uses the 'as' keyword, plus there's no comma in
case of a single decorator.

AdSR


From scott.b.drummonds.nospam at intel.com  Wed Aug 11 16:22:19 2004
From: scott.b.drummonds.nospam at intel.com (Scott Brady Drummonds)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:22:19 -0700
Subject: 'break' Causes Execution of Procedure?
References: <cfdif9$hhm$1@news01.intel.com> <cfdl76$j1m$1@news01.intel.com>
	<t8udndgpWe6rwIfcRVn-rw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <cfdv5s$o5n$1@news01.intel.com>

"Peter Hansen" <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message
news:t8udndgpWe6rwIfcRVn-rw at powergate.ca...
> Scrambled .pyc file?  Try deleting all .pyc files in the folder
> and rerun.  (Just a thought.)

Yeah, I tried that before, as well.  No such luck.

Scott




From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Sat Aug 21 22:53:09 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 02:53:09 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WE DONE?
Message-ID: <pUTVc.8393$Jn5.5720@fe1.texas.rr.com>

Well, after 3 days of open polling, the number of additional votes have
dropped off pretty dramatically.  Here are the results so far:

Total voters: 55 (with 3 votes each)
Votes for each choice or group of choices:
Any J 81
J2 78
Any C 40
C1 29
Any D 9
C2 8
D2 6
F 6
L 5
Any E 5
A1 4
H 4
K 4
Any A 4
B 3
D1 3
E1 3
C3 2
I 2
J1 2
C4 1
E2 1
E4 1
J3 1
M 1
A2 0
E3 0
G 0
J4 0

This would put J2 and C1 as the clear favorites among those who voted, with
J2 between 2:1 and 3:1 more strongly favored.  Of all of the votes cast, J2
received 48%, C1 received 18%.  No other option received more than 10% of
any votes.

However, the multivote format gives us some additional information, over
conventional "one-person-one-vote" format.  Of the 55 voters, 75% cast at
least one vote for J2, while only 35% cast one or more votes for C1.  From
the standpoint of building concensus, I find this statistic more compelling
than the raw vote count.  It tells me that 3/4 of the voting sample are at
least open to the option presented by J2, so that developing community
acceptance is more likely to happen more quickly with J2 than with C1.

I believe that Anthony Baxter's read of Guido's intentions on what happens
next are fairly accurate (Anthony has been very active on python-dev and in
private e-mails on this subject, and I'm sure his view is more than most of
us here on c.l.py) - I think Guido has challenged us to rally around *one*
alternative to the current @ syntax, and from this poll, I think J2 is our
collective best bet.  I do *not* think that Guido plans to have a run-off
between the chosen alternative and the @ syntax, nor that he would give much
credence to one if it were held - remember what the D in BDFL stands for.
But I think he *will* be pleased that among the babel of syntax proposals
that have been put forward, this fairly unstructured and unorganized group
will have come to closure and met his challenge, and settled on *one*
alternative option.  I believe that Robert Brewer's technical discussion and
Michael Sparks' implementation will at least cause him to seriously consider
our concensus choice as a viable alternative to the @ syntax.

I'm sure that there are many asking if 55 is a sufficient sample for
determining the wishes of the Python community.  I have no response other
than to say that this poll was posted on an open Usenet forum, and that it
quickly gathered a breadth of responses (despite the fact that many people
are just tired of talking and reading about decorators), and that the
response rate noe looks to be dropping off.  I am skeptical that additional
time will significantly change the results.  And I'm not sure what other
measures to take to obtain further responses.  If there are other forums for
eliciting these inputs, I would have hoped that those who follow c.l.py
would have already contacted them for their participation.

So I would like to propose that we collectively move forward with J2 as our
selected alternative.  I would say that those who proposed other
alternatives are not "the losers" in this, that they put valued thought and
discussion into this overall topic.  In fact, the J2 proposal evolved over
the past several months, and I believe this is in part due to the influence
of concepts put forth in other proposals.  I believe that both C1 and J2 are
clear, Pythonic, and pleasing to the eye, but in the interests of moving
forward, we need to focus our efforts in a single direction from here on.
If we continue to promote our other various favorites, I think it's fairly
certain that we will all be typing @ characters after release 2.4 comes out.

Please start giving some thought to what the 'decorate' keyword should be.
If we can get/keep this selection to a manageable list, then we should have
another multivote some time next week.

-- Paul






From bncarper at cs.com  Tue Aug 24 06:50:29 2004
From: bncarper at cs.com (Bob C)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 03:50:29 -0700
Subject: Setting up Tix
Message-ID: <726ee98e.0408240250.6cd06aa2@posting.google.com>

I get the following message when tryin to setup Tix on Linux rh7.3:

>>> import Tix
>>> root = Tix.Tk()
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/lib-tk/Tix.py", line 210, in __init__
    self.tk.eval('package require Tix')
_tkinter.TclError: couldn't load file "/usr/lib/libtix":
/usr/lib/libtix.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or
directory
>>> 

I have libtix8.1.8.4.a and libtix8.1.8.4.so in /usr/local/lib.  I
guess I'm not sure how to set the varibles to correctly point at the
/usr/local directory.

Bob


From clarkcase at gmail.com  Wed Aug  4 14:13:40 2004
From: clarkcase at gmail.com (Clark Case)
Date: 4 Aug 2004 11:13:40 -0700
Subject: Downsampling question - figured it out...
Message-ID: <ad1f74b2.0408041013.555fbe75@posting.google.com>

Please ignore my previous question about pipes and downsampling MP3s
in Windows. The answer was that I needed to use popen2 instead of
popen so I could specify that the pipe was binary instead of text.

Clark


From M.Waack at gmx.de  Thu Aug 26 11:44:20 2004
From: M.Waack at gmx.de (Mathias Waack)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:44:20 +0200
Subject: authentication service for unix
References: <cgiqb2$2h4$01$1@news.t-online.com> <inavv1-0eh.ln1@valpo.de>
	<cgivu3$7ud$01$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <k3d102-5s7.ln1@valpo.de>

Diez B. Roggisch wrote:

>> Using PAM is definitively not the reason why your process must be
>> run as root. What exactly are you doing?
> 
> Well, I started fiddling around with pam, and found that when
> running it as user the only one I could authenticate was the user
> the process ran with.

Ok, my fault - you're right. If you are going to authenticate a local
user you usually need read access to /etc/shadow. 

The easiest way to work around is using an existing tool like login
or su. They do the PAM stuff for you.  

Mathias



From apardon at forel.vub.ac.be  Fri Aug 27 09:08:02 2004
From: apardon at forel.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 13:08:02 GMT
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
	<412c6edb$0$258$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>
	<dave.opstad-E72D18.07305325082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
	<aN5Xc.205341$M95.157379@pd7tw1no>
	<1gj4fb5.607xsc51izh8N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xllg25lkt.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj4u3a.12ttba9fynd6uN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncis152.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<1gj5bp4.qhup8tldmvebN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncitrk7.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<1gj6cfv.nv3fziwoc81nN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <slrnciuchh.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>

Op 2004-08-27, Alex Martelli schreef <aleaxit at yahoo.com>:
> Antoon Pardon <apardon at forel.vub.ac.be> wrote:
>    ...
>> > Yes you can, and in the general case get very different effects, e.g.:
>> 
>> And what about
>> 
>>   a += b    vs   a.extend(b)
>
> I can go on repeating "in the general case [these constructs] get very
> different effects" just as long as you can keep proposing, as if they
> might be equivalent, constructs that just aren't so in the general case.
>
> Do I really need to point out that a.extend(b) doesn't work for tuples
> and strings, while a+=b works as polymorphically as feasible on all
> these types?

That extend doesn't work for strings and tupples is irrelevant.
for those types that have an extend a.extend(b) is equivallent
to a+=b 

In other words there is no reason to have an extend member for
lists.

furthermore a+=b doesn't work polymorphically feasable because
the result of

  a=c
  a+=b

is different depending on the type of c.

> It should be pretty obvious, I think.  So, if you want to
> get an AttributeError exception when 'a' is a tuple or str, a.extend(b)
> is clearly the way to go -- if you want para-polymorphic behavior in
> those cases, a+=b.  Isn't it obvious, too?

No it isn't obvious. No design is so stupid that you can't find
an example for it's use. That you have found a specific use
here doesn't say anything.

>> >>>> c=a=range(3)
>> >>>> b=range(2)
>> >>>> a+=b
>> >>>> c
>> > [0, 1, 2, 0, 1]
>> >
>> > versus:
>> >
>> >>>> c=a=range(3)
>> >>>> b=range(2)
>> >>>> a=a+b
>> >>>> c
>> > [0, 1, 2]
>> 
>> I wouldn't say you get different effects in *general*. You get the
>> same effect if you use numbers or tuples or any other immutable
>> object.
>
> a+=b is defined to be: identical to a=a+b for immutable objects being
> bound to name 'a'; but not necessarily so for mutable objects -- mutable
> types get a chance  to define __iadd__ and gain efficiency through
> in-place mutation for a+=b, while the semantics of a=a+b strictly forbid
> in-place mutation.  *IN GENERAL*, the effects of a+=b and a=a+b may
> differ, though in specific cases ('a' being immutable, or of a mutable
> type which strangely chooses to define __add__ but not __iadd__) they
> may be identical.

which makes them para-polymorphic infeasable.

> Like for a+b vs b+a: in general they may differ, but
> they won't differ if the types involved just happen to have commutative
> addition, of if a and b are equal or identical objects, i.e., in various
> special cases.
>
> "You get different effects *in general*" does not rule out that there
> may be special cases (immutable types for one issue,

If those specific cases can be half of the total cases I wouldn't
call the not specific cases *in general*.

> commutative-addition types for another, etc, etc) in which the effects
> do not differ.  Indeed, if it was "always" true that you got different
> effects, it would be superfluous to add that "in general" qualifier.
> Therefore, I find your assertion that you "wouldn't say you get
> different effects in *general*" based on finding special cases in which
> the effects do not differ to be absurd and unsupportable.
>
>
>> > But let's be sensible: if 'it' is joining two strings which are bound to
>> > names b and c, b+c is the only OBVIOUS way to do it.  Building a
>> > sequence whose items are b and c and calling ''.join on it is clearly an
>> > indirect and roundabout -- therefore NOT "the one obvious way"! -- to
>> > achieve a result.  Proof: it's so unobvious, unusual, rarely used if
>> > ever, that you typed entirely wrong code for the purpose...
>> 
>> That is just tradition. Suppose the "+" operator wouldn't have worked
>> on strings an concatenating would from the start been done by joining,
>> then that would have been the one obvious way to do it.
>
> In a hypothetical language without any + operator, but with both unary
> and binary - operators, the one "obvious" way to add two numbers a and b
> might indeed be to code:  a - (-b).  So what?  In a language WITH a
> normal binary + operator, 'a - (-b)' is nothing like 'an obvious way'.

The point is that there is a difference between what is obvious in
general and what is obvious within a certain tradition. If python
would limit itself to only one obvious way for those things that
are obvious in general that would be one way.

But here you are defending one thing that is only obvious through
tradition, by pointing out that something that hasn't had the time
to become a tradition isn't obvious.

Personly I don't find the use of "+" as a concat operator obvious.
There are types for which both addition and concatenation can be
a usefull operator. Using the same symbol for both will make
it just that much harder to implement such types and as a result
there is no obvious interface for such types.


>> > We can't always get even that, as a+b vs
>> > b+a show when a and b are bound to numbers, but we can sure get closer
>> > to it by respecting most of GvR's design decisions than by offering
>> > unfounded, hasty and badly reasoning critiques of them.
>> 
>> I think that this goal of GvR is a bad one. 
>
> I'm sure you're a better language designer than GvR, since you're
> qualified to critique, not just a specific design decision, but one of
> the pillars on which he based many of the design decisions that together
> made Python.


> Therefore, I earnestly urge you to stop wasting your time critiquing an
> inferiorly-designed language and go off and design your own, which will
> no doubt be immensely superior.  Good bye; don't slam the door on the
> way out, please.
>
>> If someway of doing it
>> is usefull then I think it should be included and the fact that
>> it introduces more than one obvious way to do some things shouldn't
>> count for much.
>
> This is exactly Perl's philosophy, of course.

No it isn't. Perl offers you choice in a number of situations
where a number of the alternatives don't offer you anything usefull.
unless a way to do things differently and eliminate a few characters.

>> Sure you shouldn't go the perl-way where things seemed to have
>> been introduced just for the sake of having more than obvious way
>> to do things. But eliminating possibilities (method chaining)
>> just because you don't like them and because they would create
>> more than one obvious way to do things, seems just as bad to
>> me.
>
> If a language should not eliminate possibilities because its designer
> does not like those possibilities, indeed if it's BAD for a language
> designer to omit from his language the possibilities he dislikes, what
> else should a language designer do then, except include every
> possibility that somebody somewhere MIGHT like?

So if you think it is good for a language designer to omit what
he dislikes. Do you think it is equally good for a language
designer to add just because he likes it. And if you think so,
do you think the earlier versions of perl, where we can think
the language was still mainly driven by what Larry Wall liked,
was a good language.

I can understand that a designer has to make choices, but
if the designer can allow a choice and has no other arguments
to limit that choice than that he doesn't like one alternative
then that is IMO a bad design decision.

>> What I have herad about the decorators is that one of the
>> arguments in favor of decorators is, that you have to
>> give the name of the function only once, where tradionally
>> you have to repeat the function name and this can introduce
>> errors.
>> 
>> But the same argument goes for allowing method chaining.
>> Without method chaining you have to repeat the name of
>> the object which can introduce errors. 
>
> I've heard that argument in favour of augmented assignment operators
> such as += -- and there it makes sense, since the item you're operating
> on has unbounded complexity... mydict[foo].bar[23].zepp += 1 may indeed
> be better than repeating that horrid LHS (although "Demeter's Law"
> suggests that such multi-dotted usage is a bad idea in itself, one
> doesn't always structure code with proper assignment of responsibilities
> to objects and so forth...).
>
> For a plain name, particularly one which is just a local variable and
> therefore you can choose to be as simple as you wish, the argument makes
> no sense to me.  If I need to call several operations on an object I'm
> quite likely to give that object a 'temporary alias' in a local name
> anyway, of course:
>   target = mydict[foo].bar[23].zepp
>   target.pop(xu1)
>   target.sort()
>   target.pop(xu3)
>   target.reverse()
>   target.pop(xu7)

I find this a questionable practice. What if you need to make the list
empty at some time. The most obvious way to do so after a number of
such statements would be:

   target = []

But of course that won't work.

>> >> The difference between
>> >> 
>> >>   print somelist.sort()
>> >> 
>> >> and
>> >> 
>> >>   somelist.sort()
>> >>   print somelist
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> is IMO of the same order as the difference between
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >>   print a + b
>> >> 
>> >> and
>> >> 
>> >>   r = a + b
>> >>   print r
>> >
>> > For a sufficiently gross-grained comparison, sure.  And so?  In the
>> > second case, if you're not interested in having the value of a+b kept
>> > around for any subsequent use, then the first approach is the one
>> > obvious way;
>> 
>> No it isn't because programs evolve. So you may think you don't
>> need the result later on, but that may change, so writing it
>> the second way, will making changes easier later on.
>
> Ridiculous.  Keep around a+b, which for all we know here might be a
> million-items list!, by having a name bound to it, without ANY current
> need for that object, because some FUTURE version of your program may
> have different specs?!
> If specs change, refactoring the program written in the sensible way,
> the way that doesn't keep memory occupied to no good purpose, won't  be
> any harder than refactoring the program that wastes megabytes by always
> keeping all intermediate results around "just in case".

One could argue that this is again just an deficiency of pythons
implementation, that can't optimise the code in such a way so that
unused variables will have there memory released.

>> > if you ARE, the second, because you've bound a name to it
>> > (which you might have avoided) so you can reuse it (if you have no
>> > interest in such reuse, it's not obvious why you've bound any name...).
>> >
>> > In the first case, fortunately the first approach is illegal, the second
>> > one is just fine.  Were they exactly equivalent in effect neither would
>> > be the one obvious way for all reasonable observer -- some would hate
>> > the side effect in the first case, some would hate the idea of having
>> > two statements where one might suffice in the second case.
>> 
>> So? I sometimes get the idea that people here can't cope with
>> differences in how people code. So any effort must be made
>> to force people to code in one specific way.
>
> When more than one person cooperates in writing a program, the group
> will work much better if there is no "code ownership" -- the lack of
> individualized, quirky style variations helps a lot.  It's not imposible
> to 'cope with differences' in coding style within a team, but it's just
> one more roadblock erected to no good purpose.  A language can help the
> team reach reasonably uniform coding style (by trying to avoid offering
> gratuitous variation which serves no real purpose), or it can hinder the
> team in that same goal (by showering gratuitous variation on them).

If a language goes so far as to make a particular coding impossible
while that would have been the prefered coding style for most of
the project members then such a limitation can hinder the decision
to agree upon a certain style instead of helping.

I also think this attitude is appalling. Python is for consenting
adults I hear. But that doesn't seem to apply here, as python
seems to want to enforce a certain coding style instead of
letting consenting adults work it out among themselves.


>> > Fortunately the first approach does NOT do the same thing as the second
>> > (it prints out None:-) so Python sticks to its design principles.  Let
>> > me offer a private libation to whatever deities protect programmers,
>> > that Python was designed by GvR rather than by people able to propose
>> > analogies such as this last one without following through on all of
>> > their implications and seeing why this SHOWS Python is consistent in
>> > applying its own design principles!
>> 
>> That these implications are important is just an implication on the
>> design principles. If someone doesn't think particular design principles
>> are that important, he doesn't care that if somethings is changed that
>> particulat design principle will be violated. Personnaly I'm not
>> that impressed with the design of python, it is a very usefull language
>
> Great, so, I repeat: go away and design your language, one that WILL
> impress you with its design.  Here, you're just waiting your precious
> time and energy, as well of course as ours.

That you waste yours, is entirly your choice, nobody forces your hand
to reply to me.

>> but having operators like '+=' which have a different kind of result
>> depending on whether you have a mutable or immutable object is IMO
>> not such a good design and I wonder what design principle inspired
>> them.
>
> Practicality beats purity: needing to polymorphically concatenate two
> sequences of any kind, without caring if one gets modified or not, is a
> reasonably frequent need and is quite well satisfied by += for example.

It isn't. Either you know what types the variables are and then
using a different operator depending on the type is no big deal,
or you don't know what type the variables are and then not caring
if one gets modified or not, is a disaster in waiting.

-- 
Antoon Pardon


From michele.simionato at gmail.com  Sun Aug  8 09:31:31 2004
From: michele.simionato at gmail.com (Michele Simionato)
Date: 8 Aug 2004 06:31:31 -0700
Subject: decorators and multimethods
References: <4edc17eb.0408062340.71ab270f@posting.google.com>	<4edc17eb.0408070742.664fa9c0@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1337.1091896218.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4edc17eb.0408080531.6f8963f9@posting.google.com>

Ronald Oussoren <ronaldoussoren at mac.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1337.1091896218.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> decorators are called before the function is added to 
> a namespace

You are right. I did some experiment with

def dec(f):
  print globals()
  return f

and it is clear that

@dec
def f():
  pass

is NOT the same as

def f():
   pass
f=dec(f)

Using the @decorator, f is not in the globals at the decorator call time.
In the version of the PEP I have read (that my have changed) complete
equivalence was claimed, so I assumed (wrongly) this was the cause of
the error I saw. Instead the error came from the second call to the
decorator, not from the first one.

                   Michele


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Tue Aug 31 18:30:27 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 01 Sep 2004 00:30:27 +0200
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>
	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>
	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>
	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>
	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>
	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>
	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>
	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>
	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>
	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<e69d3ed2040	<HBF.20040830aznn@ <ch1qf3$hvr$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<mailman.2670.1093959504.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040901i0ut@bombur.uio.no>

Paul Morrow wrote:
>Paul Morrow wrote:
>> But why speculate.  Let's see if this is really going to be unclear in 
>> practice.  Ask someone who has never seen Python before which are the 
>> local variables in the following def.
>> 
>>    def circumference(diameter):
>>       """Calculate the diameter of a circle."""
>>       __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'
>>       __version__ = '0.1'
>>       pi = 3.14
>>       return pi * diameter
>
> And while you're at it, ask them which lines get executed at function 
> definition time, and which get executed when the function is called.

Of course that's obvious with your simple example, since it clearly
doesn't even use those variables and you can even tell from the function
name what the function ought to do.  What is not obvious is how it
works.

OK, I asked my neighbor: She suggested some kind of default variables.
She noticed that the variables were not being used; if the function had
been longer she would apparently have needed to read through the entire
function to be sure.

I think my guess would have been something like C's static variables.
The assigment would be initialization, but of a variable in the same
namespace.  Which seems similar to her guess, even though we thought
of it very differently.

-- 
Hallvard


From olivier.boudevilleNOSPAM at online.fr  Fri Aug  6 12:35:04 2004
From: olivier.boudevilleNOSPAM at online.fr (Olivier Boudeville)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 18:35:04 +0200
Subject: Default list parameter issue
Message-ID: <cf0c08$2n2$1@apollon.grec.isp.9tel.net>

Hi all,

it must be a very stupid question but I cannot find out the explanation 
for my code's behaviour, so any help would really be appreciated.


My purpose was, simply put, to have a tree-like data structure, thanks 
to the following (simplified to track the issue) Node class :

class Node:
	
	
	def __init__( self, newContent = None  ) :
		"""Creates an empty node with no child node."""
		self.content  = newContent
		self.children = []	

	def __repr__( self ):
		"""Returns a textual representation of this node's state."""
		res = "Node has "
		if self.content:
			res += "content (%s)" % ( self.content, )
		else:
			res += "no content"
		res += " and it has "	
		if self.children:
			res += "%s child(ren) : <%s>" % ( len( self.children ),self.children  )
		else:
			res += "no child."
			
		return res
	
	def addChild( self, aChild ):
		"""Adds a child to current node."""	
		self.children.append( aChild )



I test the class simply thanks to :
a=Node()
b=Node()
print a
print b
a.addChild( b )
print a
print b

and it returns, as expected :

 >>> a=Node()
 >>> b=Node()
 >>> a
Node has no content and it has no child.
 >>> b
Node has no content and it has no child.
 >>> a.addChild( b )
 >>> a
Node has no content and it has 1 child(ren) : <[Node has no content and 
it has no child.]>
 >>> b
Node has no content and it has no child.

That is ok. But if I swap the previous __init__ method with my first 
version :

	def __init__( self, newContent = None, newChildren = [] ) :
		"""Creates an empty node with no child node."""
		self.content  = newContent
		self.children = newChildren

and I apply the same test, I got (output not edited) :

 >>> a=Node()
 >>> b=Node()
 >>> a
Node has no content and it has no child.
 >>> b
Node has no content and it has no child.
 >>> a.addChild( b)
 >>> a
Node has no content and it has 1 child(ren) : <[Node has no content and 
it has 1 child(ren) : <[...]>]>
 >>> b
Node has no content and it has 1 child(ren) : <[Node has no content and 
it has 1 child(ren) : <[...]>]>
 >>>

I do not understand why using an empty list as default parameter results 
  in such a different behaviour.

Thanks in advance for any hint,
kind regards,

Olivier.


PS : tested with python 2.2.1 and 2.3.3. The test should be relevant since :

 > diff ok.py   ko.py
2,4c2,4
<
<
<       def __init__( self, newContent = None  ) :
---
 >
 >
 >       def __init__( self, newContent = None, newChildren = [] ) :
7c7
<               self.children = []
---
 >               self.children = newChildren

Olivier.



From juliagoolia at eml.cc  Fri Aug  6 13:42:51 2004
From: juliagoolia at eml.cc (julia)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 10:42:51 -0700
Subject: py2exe and pyOpenGL
Message-ID: <defcda14.0408060942.21cea29f@posting.google.com>

Hi,

I'm having trouble turning a python program with pyOpenGL into an exe
with py2exe.  I was wondering if you could help.

Basically I have a setup.py like this:

# setup.py
from distutils.core import setup
import py2exe
setup(console=["gltest.py"])
# end setup.py

(Note that my program gltest.py works just fine)

And when I do:

python setup.py py2exe --excludes=OpenGL

There is an error message that says:

The following modules appear to be missing
['OpenGL.GL', 'OpenGL.GLUT', 'dotblas', etc....

But I figured this was OK because of the excludes.  So then I put the
OpenGL dir into the dist directory and when I try to run the exe I get
an ImportError:

No module named OpenGL.GL

Any idea where I'm going wrong?

Thanks so much for your time,
Julia


From claireguilbaud at yahoo.fr  Thu Aug 26 08:48:02 2004
From: claireguilbaud at yahoo.fr (Claire)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 05:48:02 -0700
Subject: vars() and dir()
Message-ID: <ac2adf77.0408260448.4e02b5e5@posting.google.com>

hi, 
i use vars() or dir() to get variables. I use them in a def block, so
i get variables of that block. How can i get variables from the
namespace __main__ ?
I use python in interactive mode and want to have a function to get a
dictionnary for python types (int, ...) and another for my types (my
classes). this function will be in my pythonstartup file.

If i use python in interactive mode, is there a main module defined ?
i don't know how to use namespace __main__ to get information on this
"global namespace" like i can do with math or another module

Thanks

Claire


From me at privacy.net  Wed Aug 25 06:58:53 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Dan Sommers)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 06:58:53 -0400
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
Message-ID: <m2pt5fmqky.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:27:51 GMT,
Martin DeMello <martindemello at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:26:26 GMT, Martin DeMello
>> <martindemello at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > It seems to be a fairly common pattern for an object-modifying method to
>> > return None - however, this is often quite inconvenient.
>> 
>> list.reverse() modifies the list in place. The python idiom is that
>> these don't return a reference to the modified list. Although note the

> Yes, but why? I mean, is there either an advantage to returning None or
> some inherent danger in returning self?

If list.sort returned the sorted list, how many lists would there be
after this code executed?

    original_list = a_function_that_returns_a_list( )
    sorted_list = original_list.sort( )

HTH,
Dan

-- 
Dan Sommers
<http://www.tombstonezero.net/dan/>
Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.


From max at alcyone.com  Sun Aug 29 01:58:58 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 22:58:58 -0700
Subject: Announcing PyCs, a new Python-like language on .Net
References: <mailman.2572.1093751093.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <413170A2.1F1D1212@alcyone.com>

Mark Hahn wrote:

> This is an announcement of the beginning of development of a new
> Python-like language called PyCs (pronounced "pie-cees"). Like
> IronPython,
> PyCs will be Python on .Net but it will have more advanced features
> and
> probably have higher performance due to a Psyco-like implementation
> technique.  See http://pycs.org.

Here we go again ...

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ It's soulful music. It doesn't necessarily sound like ... soul ...
    -- Sade Adu


From fakeaddress at nowhere.org  Mon Aug  9 02:48:04 2004
From: fakeaddress at nowhere.org (Bryan Olson)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 06:48:04 GMT
Subject: Paul Graham on Python hackers
In-Reply-To: <m2y8kqi2hy.fsf@mycroft.actrix.gen.nz>
References: <3064b51d.0408061127.32536826@posting.google.com>
	<n3fRc.191$%y3.3116@news4.e.nsc.no>
	<m2y8kqi2hy.fsf@mycroft.actrix.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <E6FRc.2626$xr6.230@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>

Paul Foley wrote:
 > Baalbek  wrote:
 >>I prefer Java and Python alike, I simply love those two languages.....
 >
 >>So, am I smart, or not as smart?
 >
 > The question is a fair indicator that you're "not as smart" [...]

Though he compares well, overall, to people who answer
rhetorical questions.


-- 
--Bryan


From john at grulic.org.ar  Mon Aug 23 09:13:54 2004
From: john at grulic.org.ar (John Lenton)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:13:54 -0300
Subject: comment utiliser python sous Fedora
In-Reply-To: <cgcp8t$fu8$1@news-reader4.wanadoo.fr>
References: <8e16829.0408230412.cf13db4@posting.google.com>
	<cgcp8t$fu8$1@news-reader4.wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <20040823131354.GB32042@grulic.org.ar>

On Mon, Aug 23, 2004 at 02:59:44PM +0200, Eric Brunel wrote:
> 
> Tout d'abord, il existe un newsgroup Python en fran?ais 
> (fr.comp.lang.python) sur lequel il est pr?f?rable de poser les questions 
> en fran?ais, le newsgroup comp.lang.python ?tant traditionnellement 
> anglophone.
> 
> Quant ? tes questions, je ne suis pas sur de les comprendre: Python est-il 
> install? sur ta machine? Il n'y a pas de documentation sur "l'usage de 
> python sous Fedora", simplement parce qu'il n'y a rien de sp?cifique sous 
> cette plateforme: PAQJS, elle s'utilise comme n'importe quel Linux. Les 
> seules instructions n?cessaires se trouvent dans le fichier README dans le 
> r?pertoire racine de l'installation Python.

that isn't exactly true: the RHN applet, at least, is written in
python :)

-- 
John Lenton (john at grulic.org.ar) -- Random fortune:
Just when you thought you were winning the rat race, along comes a faster rat!!
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From Sibylle.Koczian at Bibliothek.Uni-Augsburg.de  Fri Aug  6 06:24:03 2004
From: Sibylle.Koczian at Bibliothek.Uni-Augsburg.de (Sibylle Koczian)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 12:24:03 +0200
Subject: MySQLdb select
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1224.1091730686.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <lGIOc.4961$AY5.4762@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>	<ceg5ca$ftn$1@newshispeed.ch>	<9RPOc.2792$LI7.1058@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>	<21064255.0408020908.41357e52@posting.google.com>	<mailman.1064.1091481067.5135.python-list@python.org>	<2n9gmuFuhk8kU1@uni-berlin.de>	<ggbvg05qaa0n04675jof14l8oo1c908pkl@4ax.com>	<2nbn3pFv4865U1@uni-berlin.de>	<gmv1h0tbk1iujk2nssjtrankri3tqveh6c@4ax.com>	<2nembjF2dr7U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<mailman.1224.1091730686.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2nh4i8Fpn24U1@uni-berlin.de>

Andy Todd schrieb:
> It's a bug. I think it is a bug in MySQL. I'm using 4.0.18 on Debian and 
> an interactive session shows the problem;
> 
> """
> andy47 at vetinari:~$ mysql
[snip]
> Database changed
> mysql> select count(*) from stock_prices where price_date = '2004-07-30';
> +----------+
> | count(*) |
> +----------+
> |        7 |
> +----------+
> 1 row in set (0.00 sec)
> 
> mysql> select count(*) from stock_prices where price_date = '2004-07-30 
> 00:00:00';
> +----------+
> | count(*) |
> +----------+
> |        7 |
> +----------+
> 1 row in set (0.00 sec)
> """
> 
> When using '=' the two forms of date are identical, but if we switch to 
> using 'in';
> 
> """
> mysql> select count(*) from stock_prices where price_date in 
> ('2004-07-30');
> +----------+
> | count(*) |
> +----------+
> |        7 |
> +----------+
> 1 row in set (0.00 sec)
> 
> mysql> select count(*) from stock_prices where price_date in 
> ('2004-07-30 00:00:00');
> +----------+
> | count(*) |
> +----------+
> |        0 |
> +----------+
> 1 row in set (0.00 sec)
> 
> mysql>
> """
> 
> Ta-da. Of course, this may have already been notified to MySQL AB, I'd 
> check their web site (http://www.mysql.com) or try one of their mailing 
> lists.
> 
Will do. Thank you. I never thought of trying this directly in MySQL, 
always took it for a problem between MySQL and Python. I'll check the 
MySQL newsgroup first, as it's in German.

Koczian


From robey at slash_dev_slash_random.org  Wed Aug 18 17:53:02 2004
From: robey at slash_dev_slash_random.org (Robey Holderith)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:53:02 -0500
Subject: Embedding Python in Python
References: <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
	<mailman.1890.1092854122.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<pan.2004.08.18.19.56.03.842836@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
	<mailman.1896.1092857272.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<pan.2004.08.18.21.48.26.254719@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.18.21.53.00.17313@slash_dev_slash_random.org>

I've found the crack in the armor.  See additions below.

-Robey

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:48:26 -0500, Robey Holderith wrote:
> 
> 
> Where test2.py looked like this:
> 
> 
> #---------Begin Code
> 
> print __builtins__
> 
> try:
>     del __builtins__
>     print 'del worked'
> except:
>     pass
> 
> try:
>     exec('del __builtins__')
>     print('exec del worked')
> except:
>     pass
> 
> try:
>     import sys
>     print 'Import Worked'
> except:
>     pass
> 
> try:
>     f = file('out.tmp','w')
>     f.write('asdfasdf')
>     f.close()
>     print 'File Access Worked'
> except:
>     pass
> 
> seed()
> 
> def move():
      #Add the following for a nice security hole
      global __builtins__
      del __builtins__ 
>     print __builtins__
> 
> #------ End Code
> 
> I sure it has a crack in in somewhere, but it doesn't
> seem to be del __builtins__ .
> 
> -Robey





From python473 at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 30 18:06:44 2004
From: python473 at yahoo.com (John Howard)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 15:06:44 -0700
Subject: file access in jythonc
References: <9eabe547.0408210611.d5e54f7@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <9eabe547.0408301406.2543e691@posting.google.com>

python473 at yahoo.com (John Howard) wrote in message news:<9eabe547.0408210611.d5e54f7 at posting.google.com>...
> I have the following in a jythonc program to be executed in a html
> file.
> 
> f1 = open("filename","r")
> 
> I get message about filePermission read error. Program compiles and
> jar file is created. Just the html code gives message.
> 
> Any ideas?

I've looked up the references below and done several searches of
filepermissions. It seems to me that for jythonc to have any use in
development of "practical" products, programs have to be able to
access local files easily. If not, then this, in my opinion, is going
to be a MAJOR issue for jython!! I love the syntax and ease of
programming in python, but if it cannot be used for useful programs,
why bother?! BTW, how does java handle this? Is the same problem there
also?


From g2swaroop at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 09:01:21 2004
From: g2swaroop at gmail.com (Swaroop C H)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 06:01:21 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <7a2acfc1.0408200501.571f3128@posting.google.com>

"Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<jQHUc.1529$2L3.505 at newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....

Going to be 22 next month...

Btw, I've even written a book on it :-)
See www.python.g2swaroop.net

Enjoy,
Swaroop


From mwilson at the-wire.com  Mon Aug 16 14:04:17 2004
From: mwilson at the-wire.com (Mel Wilson)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:04:17 -0400
Subject: rsa implementation question
References: <1092200894.4119a9beb1978@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
	<mailman.1483.1092208637.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<5GkSc.124$O72.121@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>
	<mailman.1517.1092244848.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <hcPIBls/KjBB089yn@the-wire.com>

In article <mailman.1517.1092244848.5135.python-list at python.org>,
Heiko Wundram <heikowu at ceosg.de> wrote:
>Am Mittwoch, 11. August 2004 10:21 schrieb Bryan Olson:
>> I agree with about half of Heiko Wundram's response.
>
>Well, with what don't you agree? ;)
>
>Anyway, I've not read anywhere that for signing a message it is discredited to
>use RSA decrypt with private key, encrypt with public key.

I believe there's a supplied-plaintext attack.  Your enemy can use
your public key to compute a special text, and ask you to sign it.
The effect of the computed text is that your enemy can then compute
your secret key from the signature.  Hashing beforehand makes is almost
impossible to fall into this trap.

        Regards.        Mel.


From fredrik at pythonware.com  Wed Aug 11 09:03:52 2004
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:03:52 +0200
Subject: Executing bytecode from a string.
References: <pan.2004.08.11.07.18.32.690395@proteus-tech.com>
	<10hk4q68cie6815@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <cfd5fo$29u$1@sea.gmane.org>

John Roth wrote:

> Look at the 'new' module. It's in the Library Reference under
> Python Runtime Services. You'll need to wrap the byte string
> with 'code', and then wrap that with 'function'.

that's insane, though.  use marshal on code objects, and keep your
sanity.

see page 4-10 in this document for a small sample:

    http://www.effbot.org/zone/librarybook/data-representation.pdf

to avoid chaos when you upgrade Python, it's a good idea to attach
imp.get_magic() to the marshalled string, and verify it before you un-
marshall the code; see:

    http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2003-November/196230.html

</F>





From alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 22 20:38:32 2004
From: alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 17:38:32 -0700
Subject: I would really like the code for a dome in vpython
References: <8f17f4bc.0408181349.46c34b2@posting.google.com>
	<clp7i09uubansi27ha70eblegbdhse18g3@4ax.com>
	<8f17f4bc.0408201816.13d537a6@posting.google.com>
	<2oq70tFdejl8U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <8f17f4bc.0408221638.72069456@posting.google.com>

Cousin Stanley <cousinstanley at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<2oq70tFdejl8U1 at uni-berlin.de>...
> >> .... 
> >> http://www.applied-synergetics.com/ashp/html/domes.html
> >> ....
>  
> > I went to the link you gave but the link to download the software is broken. :(
> >
> 
> Ali .... 
> 
>   You might try the following link 
>   for  dome/windome  software from Synergetics ....
>   
>       http://www.applied-synergetics.com/ashp/html/windome_readme.html
> 
>   This is a 6 frame animated GIF I put together back in 2001
>   using this software which shows full geodesic spheres
>   constructed from an icosahedron base ....      
>         
>       http://fastq.com/~sckitching/Icosa_1_thru_6.htm
>       [ 940 KB ]      
> 
>   The sphere becomes more and more rounded
>   as the division frequency of the icosahedron
>   increases ....

I will try those links thanks


From spam_depository2004 at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 02:57:24 2004
From: spam_depository2004 at yahoo.com (Johnny)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 23:57:24 -0700
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <2a56f6a3.0408252257.4f1f92e@posting.google.com>

xah at xahlee.org (Xah Lee) wrote in message news:<7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a at posting.google.com>...

> How can we prevent heinous cults then? Stop bending truths. Education
> and rationalism. I'm starting my own cult to exterminate morons on
> this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl.

I bet Larry Wall's life insurance premiums just skyrocketed. BTW, what
does this have to do with Lisp? We are more of a therapy and support
group than a cult.


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Wed Aug  4 08:47:41 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 08:47:41 -0400
Subject: numarray speed question
In-Reply-To: <953AD3D0Didtoken@128.91.2.239>
References: <953AD3D0Didtoken@128.91.2.239>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408040845120.27254-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, grv wrote:

> So it is supposed to be very fast to have an array of say 5 million 
> integers stored in a binary file and do
> 
> a = numarray.fromfile('filename', (2, 2, 2))
> numarray.add(a, 9, a)
> 
> but how is that faster than reading the entire file into memory and then 
> having a for loop in C:
>    (loop over range) {
>       *p++ += 9      }
> 
> or is that essentially what's going on?

That's essentially what's going on ;) The point of numarray isn't to be 
hyper-fast, but to be as fast as the equivalent C (or Fortran, or 
what-have-you) implementation.  In many cases, it's faster, because 
numarray is designed with several speed hacks in mind, but it's nothing 
you can't do (without a little work) in C.



From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 27 17:28:19 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 23:28:19 +0200
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xzn4gwgea.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <1gj7a1o.1a5d2q410jsn2kN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:

> aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:
> > > Here is a python feature that I would like: to be able to import modules
> > > from an archive like the jar files in Java.  Maybe a regular tar file?
> > 
> > Python 2.3 lets you import modules from a zipfile.  The zip format is
> > better than tar when you just need to get one file from it, which is why
> > java's jar files are also basically zipfiles.
> 
> Jar files are -signed- zip files.  Is there some reason to not do that
> for Python?

I know of no reason to forbid support for such "signing", no.  If you
want to offer a patch to zipimport to let it support whatever signing,
encryption, or other devilry appeals to you, this is definitely the
right moment if you hope to see it happen in Python 2.4.

If you mean patching zipimport to _forbid_ importing from any zipfile
whatsoever, including a plain vanilla one, I think it's too late for
THAT for Python 2.4 -- not sure what backwards incompatibilities that
might cause, but it's definitely not the kind of thing you can spring on
the world in a release that's already fast moving towards its
hopefully-last alpha release.  (Adding functionality is one thing,
breaking compatibility with something that a previous release allowed is
quite another...).


Alex


From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 21 13:59:48 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:59:48 -0500
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <cg78qs$q10$05$1@news.t-online.com>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3cfbrh8xwe5.fsf@nemi.ping.uio.no>
	<4123874C.8000304@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
	<VL9Vc.219443$Zy5.10757244@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<dX9Vc.219454$AV4.10728560@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<cg4cdk$hvu$1@news.tue.nl> <ZFoVc.360$MR2.1503@news1.mts.net>
	<cg78qs$q10$05$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <J3MVc.985$MR2.3626@news1.mts.net>

Peter Otten wrote:
> Reid Nichol wrote:
> 
> 
>>>and then a quantum leap towards Python.
>>
>>You're aware that a quantum leap means a extremely small leap, right?
> 
> 
> (from a random walk through the internet)
> 
>             size [m]    jumps [m]             ratio
> man         2            8                        4(*)
> grasshopper 2e-2         4e-1(*)                 20
> electron    2*3e-15      5e-11 (Bohr radius)   8000(*)  
> 
> (*) my calculation
> 
> That's one small step for electricity, one giant leap for an electron...
> Based on the above evidence a 10m Python should jump 80 kilometers (50
> miles), so beware...
> 
> Peter
> 
> 

LOL!


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Tue Aug 31 17:10:00 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 31 Aug 2004 23:10:00 +0200
Subject: sys.stdin.readline()
References: <367a4461.0408311221.30866c09@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040831jd9s@bombur.uio.no>

Mike Maxwell wrote:

> When I invoke readline() in a for loop, why does it return a series of
> one-char strings, rather than the full line?
> 
> >>> for sL in sys.stdin.readline(): print sL

It does return a full line.  *One* line.  Then your loop iterates
over the characters in that line.

Try `for sL in sys.stdin.xreadlines(): print sL'.
Or in newer Pythons, simply `for sL in sys.stdin: print sL'.

-- 
Hallvard


From tor.iver.wilhelmsen at broadpark.no  Sun Aug 22 09:41:13 2004
From: tor.iver.wilhelmsen at broadpark.no (Tor Iver Wilhelmsen)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 15:41:13 +0200
Subject: unicodedata name for \u000a
References: <mailman.2120.1093116249.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408212145180.1131-100000@kleigh.nl>
	<u8yc7mu4i.fsf@broadpark.no>
	<412869bf$0$24814$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
Message-ID: <ufz6f2sue.fsf@broadpark.no>

"Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> writes:

> No. <control> is not a character name. The unicodedata.name function
> returns the official character name, so it MUST NOT return an alias
> (which rules out your second alternative).

Then why not return None or the empty string instead of raising an
exception?


From http  Fri Aug 20 19:17:05 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 16:17:05 -0700
Subject: decorator J4 - any objections?
References: <cab22418.0408201006.16f163b2@posting.google.com>
	<H5ydnQFIZezZH7vcRVn-iQ@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <7xoel52ydq.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

"Larry Bates" <lbates at swamisoft.com> writes:
> If docstring can be a special case of a triple quoted
> string, I don't see why decorators couldn't be a special
> case of a dictionary.

I like that.  Please add it to the wiki.


From jpmorichon at earthlink.net  Thu Aug  5 13:48:04 2004
From: jpmorichon at earthlink.net (CptPicard)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 17:48:04 GMT
Subject: Need help on how to use Pymedia!
References: <mailman.1208.1091724751.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <opuQc.1380$nx2.276@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>


"Dmitry Borisov" <jbors at mail.ru> wrote in message
news:mailman.1208.1091724751.5135.python-list at python.org...
>
> >
> > Thank you for your help!
> >
> > "Lawrence Oluyede" <raims at dot.com> wrote in message
> > news:3x8w4pqd3emo.15wp1jkrwkqua.dlg at 40tude.net...
> > > In data Thu, 05 Aug 2004 02:28:48 GMT, CptPicard ha scritto:
> > >
> > > > Could someone give me a more detailed documentation on pymedia or
some
> > clues
> > > > on how to get the information I need ?
> > >
> > > AFAIK Pymedia cannot extract ID3 infos from MP3 (altough you can study
by
> > > yourself the ID3 format a inspect the raw info of the file), anyway
the
> > web
> > > is full of ID3 tools for python such as:
> > > http://id3-py.sourceforge.net/
>
> Please use this mailing list to get support on pymedia:
pymedia-users at lists.sourceforge.net
> It will make sure you get the quick response.

I will do so!

>
> The documentation is a little scarce at the moment and I'm working on the
tutorial to compensate that.

Good news!

>
> Here is the code which will give you what you need( from pycar ). It is
modified to match what you need and therefore not tested.:
>
>     f= open( <file_name>, 'rb' )
>     dec= acodec.Decoder( <file_extension> )
>     s= f.read( 20000 )
>     fr= dec.decode( s )
>     # Hardcoding for mp3 IDv1 tags
>     if not dec.hasHeader() and <file_extension>== 'mp3':
>       f.seek( -128, 2 )
>       dec= acodec.Decoder( 'mp3' )
>       dec.decode( f.read( 128 ) )
>
>     print dec.getInfo()

I appreciate your support.
I understand that this is a piece of code specially written for fixing my
problem but where could I find such example in pycar ? I looked for Decoder
in the pycar source code (pymedia*-src) and found no match.

Do you include support for tag IDv2 too ?

>
> Hope this helps.
> Dmitry/
>




From nospam at nowhere.hu  Sat Aug  7 18:00:06 2004
From: nospam at nowhere.hu (Miklós)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 00:00:06 +0200
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu> <cf3b56$gt6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>
	<cf3cvt$d3i$1@namru.matavnet.hu>
	<iq6dnbRwnbwU3IjcRVn-vQ@giganews.com>
	<m3oelmpsrm.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <cf3jeq$31g$1@namru.matavnet.hu>


"Michael Hudson" <mwh at python.net> wrote in message
news:m3oelmpsrm.fsf at pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk...
>
> Which you've made up: sorted is a builtin in 2.4.
>
> By all means carp about the new features, but -- particularly if
> you're going to be sarcastic about it -- please get it right.

It was me, Mikl?s, who was sarcastic about the feature frenzy and it was
Istv?n who brought up .sort() and .reverse()
Sorry, that's two different persons, albeit apparently both Hungarians. ;)

Cheers,
 Mikl?s

>
> Cheers,
> mwh
>
> --
> 7. It is easier to write an incorrect program than understand a
>    correct one.
>   -- Alan Perlis, http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/perlis-alan/quotes.html




From jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu  Wed Aug  4 13:14:43 2004
From: jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu (John Hunter)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 12:14:43 -0500
Subject: Barcode Layout
In-Reply-To: <4110CA81.6060706@cenix-bioscience.com> (Aaron Bingham's
	message of "Wed, 04 Aug 2004 13:37:37 +0200")
References: <4110CA81.6060706@cenix-bioscience.com>
Message-ID: <m2ekmmakqk.fsf@mother.paradise.lost>

>>>>> "Aaron" == Aaron Bingham <bingham at cenix-bioscience.com> writes:

    Aaron> I've been looking at Piddle
    Aaron> (http://piddle.sourceforge.net/) and it appears we could
    Aaron> write a backend to support our barcode printer with extra
    Aaron> methods for higher-level entities, but I'm reluctant
    Aaron> committing to apparent abandonware. Does anyone have
    Aaron> experience doing similar things with Piddle?  Are there any
    Aaron> plans to maintain/enhance/replace Piddle?  Are there other
    Aaron> packages I should look at?

While piddle may very well serve your purposes, you may want to
consider using a more active project.  The last piddle update was in
2002.

I am the author of matplotlib - a 2D plotting library for python.
Like piddle, it is organized around various backends.  It is a very
active project, with a number of developers who make regular
contributions in addition to myself.  We have PS/EPS, SVG, wxpython,
gtk, tkinter, agg (pngs) and more.  It is fairly easy to write a new
backend if you need to for your barcode printer (4 backends are user
contributed).

You could create your barcode using the matplotlib drawing/plotting
functions, or by working directly with the matplotlib drawing
primitives, and then display them in the hardcopy or GUI backend of
your choice.

    Homepage:  http://matplotlib.sourceforge.net/

    Template for backend writers: http://matplotlib.sourceforge.net/matplotlib.backends.backend_template.html

    Screenshots: http://matplotlib.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html

With matplotlib, you have full control over all line properties --
line width, color, dash styles, cap and join styles, etc.. -- as well
as nice rendering features not found in many older drawing libraries
(alpha, antialiasing).

JDH




From scott.b.drummonds.nospam at intel.com  Wed Aug 25 14:59:48 2004
From: scott.b.drummonds.nospam at intel.com (Scott Brady Drummonds)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:59:48 -0700
Subject: Python Image Manipulation
Message-ID: <cginj5$vu3$1@news01.intel.com>

Can anyone recommend the easiest way of generating thumbnail images using a
Python library?  I've seen that the Python Image Library (PIL) seems to do
this but it isn't installed on my available systems.  I'd prefer to use
something distributed with Python, if possible, but will install the library
that makes this functionality easy as a second choice.

Thanks!
Scott

-- 
Remove .nospam from my e-mail address to mail me.

http://www.e-scott.net




From pwmiller1 at adelphia.net  Thu Aug 26 23:12:02 2004
From: pwmiller1 at adelphia.net (Paul Miller)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 20:12:02 -0700
Subject: about presicion
References: <8f17f4bc.0408261434.1a73e874@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <2e363c08.0408261912.2358a016@posting.google.com>

alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali) wrote in message news:<8f17f4bc.0408261434.1a73e874 at posting.google.com>...
> I was wondering if it was posible to get very good presicion. I mean
> like to the to the 100 th or more decimal place. if so how?

You can have infinite, or at least arbitrary precision, if you do all
calculations on rational numbers.  Doing this will probably be very
slow compared to calculations on floats, ints, or longs, however,
especially if implemented in pure Python.

A compromise would be to use a fixed-point representation.  If you
needed 100 decimal digits after the decimal point, and say, 10 before
the decimal point, you could accomplish that (and actually a teeny bit
more) using a 368-bit fixed-point representation.  This could possibly
be fast in Python, depending on the implementation.

It all depends what your requirements are.


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 11:56:56 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:56:56 +1000
Subject: object.*
In-Reply-To: <a1d2c9b4.0408260741.3a474bd8@posting.google.com>
References: <a1d2c9b4.0408260741.3a474bd8@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082608563e9db26c@mail.gmail.com>

On 26 Aug 2004 08:41:25 -0700, DeadWisdom <deadwisdom at wisefool.net> wrote:
> I think there should be an ability in python to write something like
> "object.*" which should return a dictionary object containing all the
> members and their values for the given object.  Maybe ".*" could be
> treated as an operator. ::shrug::

Ick. Please don't. If you want to do this, look at the 'dir()' builtin.

http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/lib/built-in-funcs.html#l2h-20


From nobody at nowhere.com  Mon Aug  9 14:05:05 2004
From: nobody at nowhere.com (Fred)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:05:05 +0200
Subject: VB-like GUI designer?
References: <bv2fh01mq7ug2v79s737tg06iehiph9158@4ax.com>
	<278de0e.0408090935.6d758a5d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <i0ffh01guveqks1n854c2g4l75dbdg57rr@4ax.com>

On 9 Aug 2004 10:35:45 -0700, luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss) wrote:
(snip)

	Thx everyone for the feedback. I just took a look at Boa,
BlackAdder, and PythonCard.

For those VB developers out there, here's some notes:

- Like wxGlade, Boa is based on wxWidgets, but doesn't seem to have a
GUI builder. You just add widgets to a list, and I assume you have to
set the coordinates and properties through code only. Also, Boa hasn't
been updated since April 2003

- PythonCard is apparently since a prototype, so very risky to start
using this to write professionnal apps. Besides, it doesn't seem to
offer a grid object, which is a must for a lot of business apps

- BlackAdder is an IDE from the Kompany (KDE), uses the QT widgets and
the PyQT wrapper, and comes with the QT Designer GUI tool. So far,
it's the only VB-like IDE I found, but I don't know how good it is
(didn't check during install whether Python and PyQT were installed;
The IDE started with a non-standard, 14-point font, etc.)

Now, for some more questions:

- Since the goal is to avoid getting trapped again, I'm concerned
about using non-native Windows widgets, and rely on either wxWidgets
or the commercial QT widgets set.
Is there a GUI designer that just uses the native widgets and possibly
COM controls like VB instead? Our customers are very unlikely to ever
leave Windows for Linux, so I don't need cross-platform widgets

- Is there a good grid object in wxWidgets or QT similar to eg.
ComponentOne's VSFlexGrid?
I'm especially concerned about ease of use (FlexGrid can be linked to
an array, which makes it a snap to read/write data from/to an SQL
server like SQLite), performance, and features (eg. can I print the
grind and have a nice layout, or must I handle the printing part
myself?) 

- Is there a GUI designer for wxWidgets that is on par with QT
Designer? If not, does wxWidgets have more to offer than the QT
widgets set, which would make it a better choice even if no good GUI
designer is yet available for wxW? 

- And last, since we're on the subject of tools available to switch
from VB... is there a good compiler so as to distribute a GUI Python
built on either wxW or QT?
I've seen a bunch of tools like py2exe, freeze, pyPack, Psyco,
McMillan (RIP?), and distutils, so am a bit lost. Which would you
recommend?

Thank you very much for your help
Fred.


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 11:16:15 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: 13 Aug 2004 08:16:15 -0700
Subject: decorator syntax polling suggestion
References: <d11dcfba.0408121252.7690a43a@posting.google.com>
	<411BF3FC.71051A6F@alcyone.com>
Message-ID: <d11dcfba.0408130716.7b16631@posting.google.com>

Erik Max Francis <max at alcyone.com> wrote in message news:<411BF3FC.71051A6F at alcyone.com>...
> The problem is that since it's an unofficial poll, and it's not clear that
> Guido will give much credence to it at all, there is really no incentive
> for people who are happy, or at least satisfied, with the current
> decorator syntax to vote in order to express their approval.

Your point is valid if the goal of the poll would be to influence
Guido.  The point of the polls I'm suggesting are not to influence
Guido at all, but to direct the discussion among the rest of us.  If
it so happens that those who are happy with the current proposal don't
vote, it actually doesn't make much of a difference, because those who
are happy with the current proposal and not interested in the
discussion enough to vote won't really be contributing to the
discussion anyway.

What I'm really interested in here is trying to build a consensus
among the dissatisfied people.  If you scan the list right now, you
can see that there are a hundred people going in a hundred directions.
I'm sure this looks to Guido like an insoluble problem that is best
handled by a "pronouncement".  On the other hand, if all (or at least
a substantial majority) of the people complaining about @decorators
now all got together and pushed the same counter-proposal, even if we
didn't have representatives from the happy-with- at decorators group, I
think we'd hold a lot more sway in Guido's eyes.

I don't actually expect to be able to get a consensus on everything. 
Location especially I expect we won't come to an agreement on.  But if
it looks like most of us want, say a keyword instead of a symbol, then
at least that's a step.

Steve


From bac at OCF.Berkeley.EDU  Sun Aug  8 15:38:25 2004
From: bac at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Brett C.)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 12:38:25 -0700
Subject: python-dev Summary for 2004-07-16 through 2004-07-31
Message-ID: <41168131.10006@ocf.berkeley.edu>

python-dev Summary for 2004-07-16 through 2004-07-31
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This is a summary of traffic on the `python-dev mailing list`_ from July 
16, 2004 through July 31, 2004.  It is intended to inform the wider 
Python community of on-going developments on the list.  To comment on 
anything mentioned here, just post to `comp.lang.python`_ (or email 
python-list at python.org which is a gateway to the newsgroup) with a 
subject line mentioning what you are discussing. All python-dev members 
are interested in seeing ideas discussed by the community, so don't 
hesitate to take a stance on something.  And if all of this really 
interests you then get involved and join `python-dev`_!

This is the forty-fifth summary written by Brett Cannon (will be going 
insane
when doing the next summary thanks to decorators).

To contact me, please send email to brett at python.org ; I do not have 
the time to keep up on comp.lang.python and thus do not always catch 
follow-ups posted there.

All summaries are archived at http://www.python.org/dev/summary/ .

Please note that this summary is written using reStructuredText_ which 
can be found at http://docutils.sf.net/rst.html .  Any unfamiliar 
punctuation is probably markup for reST_ (otherwise it is probably 
regular expression syntax or a typo =); you can safely ignore it, 
although I suggest learning reST; it's simple and is accepted for `PEP 
markup`_ and gives some perks for the HTML output.  Also, because of the 
wonders of programs that like to reformat text, I cannot guarantee you 
will be able to run the text version of this summary through Docutils_ 
as-is unless it is from the `original text file`_.

.. _PEP Markup: http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0012.html

The in-development version of the documentation for Python can be found at
http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/ and should be used when looking up any
documentation on new code; otherwise use the current documentation as 
found at
http://docs.python.org/ .  PEPs (Python Enhancement Proposals) are 
located at http://www.python.org/peps/ .  To view files in the Python 
CVS online, go to http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/python/ 
.  Reported bugs and suggested patches can be found at the SourceForge_ 
project page.

The `Python Software Foundation`_ is the non-profit organization that 
holds the intellectual property for Python.  It also tries to forward 
the development and use of Python.  But the PSF_ cannot do this without 
donations.  You can make a donation at 
http://python.org/psf/donations.html .  Every penny helps so even a 
small donation (you can donate through PayPal or by check) helps.

.. _python-dev: http://www.python.org/dev/
.. _SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=5470
.. _python-dev mailing list: 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
.. _comp.lang.python: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=comp.lang.python
.. _Docutils: http://docutils.sf.net/
.. _reST:
.. _reStructuredText: http://docutils.sf.net/rst.html
.. _PSF:
.. _Python Software Foundation: http://python.org/psf/

.. contents::

.. _last summary: 
http://www.python.org/dev/summary/2004-07-16_2004-07-31.html
.. _original text file: 
http://www.python.org/dev/summary/2004-07-16_2004-07-31.ht



=====================
Summary Announcements
=====================
Python 2.4a2 is out the door.  The usual request for people to run the 
regression test suite stands.

If you have been following the whole decorator syntax bugaboo, realize 
that I won't summarize it until the next summary (discussion started 
August 1).  But for those of you not in the know, Guido has tentatively 
accepted the proposed '@decorator' syntax for decorators.  This has led 
to an **immense** explosion in discussion python-dev (over 700 emails 
already for the next summary and there is still another week to go) on 
the subject.  Basically Guido has said that the community can come up 
with one other syntax that they like and present that to Guido (already 
proposed syntaxes are pretty much out of the running for the reasons 
they were shot down the first time).  *Much* more on this subject in the 
next summary.


========
Summary
========
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Makin' bdist_wininst purty and nicer for them non-English speaking folks
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas Heller asked if some better images for Distutil's bdist_wininst 
could be used.  Some existing images were discussed, but no specific 
resolution was mentioned in the thread.

Walter D?rwald brought up the point that if this was all being worked on 
he wouldn't mind having Unicode support for things such as author name 
and such.  Thomas and Walter worked on it and that has gone in.

Contributing threads:
   - `bdist_wininst 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/046268.html>`__


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Assigning to None a no-no, but still okay for booleans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Assigning to None is now a SyntaxError instead of a SyntaxWarning. 
Assignment to True and False, though, is still allowed and probably will 
not be restricted until Python 3.0 (which will probably have to wait, if 
Guido's OSCON slides are to be believed, until he retires).  The idea of 
restricting assignment, though, was brought up by Raymond Hettinger. 
Michael Hudson, though, pointed out it would be difficult and possibly 
require a special opcode to handle it.

Contributing threads:
   - `Re: [Python-checkins] python/dist/src/Python compile.c, 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/046271.html>`__
   - `None as constant. Still SyntaxWarning 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/046323.html>`__


-----------------------------------------------------------------
'as' does not get to be treated with kiddie gloves
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Philip Eby asked if 'as' was going to become a keyword.  Guido said not 
now, but in Python 3.0 it will be.

Contributing threads:
   - `"as" to be a keyword? 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/046304.html>`__


-------------------------------------------------------------
Hopefully you didn't love FCNTL like a child...
-------------------------------------------------------------
... since if you did that kid was a lazy punk that did nothing but cause 
trouble for Windows users.  That's why it got kicked out of the house to 
never come back.

Contributing threads:
   - `Kill FCNTL.py 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/046322.html>`__


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How to get Python to compile with Microsoft's free compiler that should 
just come with the OS standard
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Download the free .NET compiler
2. Download the Windows SDK (at 
http://www.microsoft.com/msdownload/platformsdk/sdkupdate/ with only IE)
3. Download Garth's tools to generate a Makefile from the .sln files (at 
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-February/042595.html )
4. Compile
5. Realize you should be using an OS that doesn't make you go through 
this many hoops just to have a compiler for your platform

Contributing threads:
   - `Non-Visual Studio builds on Windows XP? 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/046324.html>`__


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Peters, whitespace Czar, will break your legs if you mess up the 
pristine whitespace in CVS
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Peters ran Tools/Scripts/reindent.py over the entire CVS tree and 
fixed it up.  This means you had better not mess up and check in using 
anything but 4-space indents with no tabs!

Contributing threads:
   - `Fun with whitespace 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/046331.html>`__


-----------------------------------------------------------
Thread safety == won't blow up in your face
-----------------------------------------------------------
Paul Moore pointed out that the documentation for deques in the 
collections module stated they were thread-safe.  It was clarified that 
the statement meant that internal state would not be corrupted if 
multiple threads accessed the same object; no guarantee that it isn't 
accessed in some order or anything.  Basically the idea of thread-safety 
for C code is that it won't lead to the interpreter exploding, nothing 
more.  And you don't even get that guarantee with Python code.

Contributing threads:
   - `Thread safety of deques 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/046343.html>`__


------------------------------------------------------------------------
LC_NUMERIC PEP gets a pristine, new PEP number
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even though the code had already been put into the core, the PEP about 
LC_NUMERIC and being locale-independent never got a PEP number.  Well, 
now it has one: `PEP 331`_.

.. _PEP 331: http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0331.html

Contributing threads:
   - `PEP 331: Locale-Independent Float/String Conversions 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/046358.html>`__


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Edward Loper becomes one of us rowdy developers
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
And he has already made his initial contribution by helping to rework 
doctest.

Contributing threads:
   - `Would like to add Edward Loper as a Python developer 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/046395.html>`__


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any misbehaving modules during initialization from import now get the boot
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Fulton wanted a better way to detect when an import failed thanks to 
another module being directly imported (e.g., module A imports B which 
raised TypeError from some initialization code from importing; importing 
would leave A and B in a shoddy state in sys.modules along with raising 
TypeError in the import from A instead of raising ImportError).  While 
the latter still occurs, modules are not left in sys.modules in a broken 
state from exceptions being raised during initialization thanks to Guido 
and Tim Peters.

There was a discussion on circular imports and how to handle those for 
proper rollback.  Two suggestions were taking a snapshot of sys.modules 
and then restoring with that if something bad happens, and putting in 
placeholder modules in sys.modules.  But this all gets sticky from 
side-effects that modules can do outside of themselves before they 
finish importing everyone else.  If, for instance, module A, as a 
side-effect of importation, injected a custom version of len into module 
B that would make the state of B different than from before the failed 
attempt to import module A.  Now, if module A did this before doing all 
of its imports it could pull of the len injection but still fail from a 
bad import.  That is not good.  Basically the best solution is to not do 
that; there is a reason you should do all of your global imports as the 
first thing in a module.

Contributing threads:
   - `Fix import errors to have data 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/046424.html>`__


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stuff about Unicode, state, and how to handle when a stream terminated 
early; all CJK to me
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walter D?rwald noticed that codecs.StreamReader.read() would read a few 
more bytes when it discovered an error.  That's bad since there might 
not be more bytes and continuing once an error has been found is just 
not right.  So he wanted to fix that problem.

Unfortunately he and MA Lemburg started to talk and I just couldn't 
follow everything about stateful and stateless decoders/encoders and the 
issues; I'm American so Unicode just doesn't fit in my brain well.  So 
if you want to know what conclusions they reached you are going to read 
the thread on your own.

Contributing threads:
   - `Decoding incomplete unicode 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/046450.html>`__


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Use the docs to know what the public API is, people
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fernando Perez got bit by having something removed from the 'keyword' 
module that was not part of the documented API.  Turns out that running 
'help' on the module listed the function in question and so he just went 
ahead an used it.  That's not the right way to go about finding the 
public API of stdlib code.

Always follow the documentation.  If it is not listed there don't expect 
it to be there in the next version.  While we try not to yank stuff out 
needlessly and will tweak things to be nice on occasion, we make no 
guarantees on stuff not listed in the API.

The next best thing is what is listed in __all__ for a module.  Since 
that is explicitly listed that usually can be considered part of the API.

And lastly, anything starting with an underscore is off limits in terms 
of promises of keeping it around.

Luckily Skip Montanaro applied a patch for pydoc to have it only list 
stuff in modules as specified by __all__, so it's a little safer out 
there.  But the actual documentation is still king.

Contributing threads:
   - `Rationale behind removing kwdict from keyword.py? 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/046465.html>`__


-------------------------------------------------------
Linking against static builds on Windows
-------------------------------------------------------
Thomas Heller pointed out that one couldn't dynamically link against a 
statically built Python interpreter DLL.  He and Martin v. L?wis 
discussed various ways to try to get this to work, but it doesn't appear 
they came up with one.

Contributing threads:
   - `Static builds on Windows 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-July/046499.html>`__



From shalabh at cafepy.com  Thu Aug 26 19:01:28 2004
From: shalabh at cafepy.com (Shalabh Chaturvedi)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:01:28 -0700
Subject: property puzzle
In-Reply-To: <260820041535594501%JBrouwersAtProphICyDotCom@no.spam.net>
References: <78b6a744.0408260846.5dc5a0cf@posting.google.com>
	<260820041535594501%JBrouwersAtProphICyDotCom@no.spam.net>
Message-ID: <cglq1d$lrc$1@sea.gmane.org>

Jean Brouwers wrote:
> Also, property needs bound methods to get, set, and delete, like
> 
>     status = property(self._get_status, self._set_status)
> 
> /Jean Brouwers

No it doesn't. The following is a working piece of code:

class C(object):
    def getx(self):
       return 1

    x = property(getx)

print C().x

Prints 1 as expected.

--
Shalabh



From vincent_delft at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 21 15:50:44 2004
From: vincent_delft at yahoo.com (vincent_delft at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:50:44 +0200
Subject: zipfile module: problems with filename having non ascii characters
Message-ID: <4127a6d7$0$4090$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be>


I've a simple python script that read a directory and put the files into a
Zip file.

I'm using the os.walk method to get the directory content,
I'm creating ZipInfo objects and set "filename", ... to what os.walk give
me.
...
And it works!!!!

BUT!!

When I open the created zip file with "WinZip" (or any other zip tool)
filenames are not always like they should be.
In fact filenames with characters like "?","?","?" are not correctly defined
in the zip file.

Does any one knows what must be done ?
Does this is a "unicode" problem ?
Does this is a known bug in ZipFile module ?
????



Thanks

Vincent




From export at hope.cz  Tue Aug 17 11:56:38 2004
From: export at hope.cz (Lad)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 08:56:38 -0700
Subject: Problem
Message-ID: <81a41dd.0408170543.3eab590a@posting.google.com>

I have only one,
the following line in my program

from _winreg import *

When I run it from PythonWin program( under windows)
it works normally.

But when I try to run it from command line ( console) like
python MyProgram.py 
I will get the error

    from _winreg import *
ImportError: DLL load failed: The specified module could not be found.

How can I solve the problem?


From nospamjynyl at yahoo.co.nz  Wed Aug  4 04:45:26 2004
From: nospamjynyl at yahoo.co.nz (Peter)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 20:45:26 +1200
Subject: PyQt - clear widget for redraw
References: <410b4492@news.maxnet.co.nz> <celo8g$bbf$06$1@news.t-online.com>
	<410fad7d@news.maxnet.co.nz>
	<mailman.1102.1091571320.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <41106a79@news.maxnet.co.nz>

Phil Thompson wrote:
> There are lots of standard graphics techniques for eliminating flicker
> when drawing that you can exploit with PyQt. Double buffering for example
> - draw to a QPixmap and then blit it to the QWidget.
 
ok - I don't know what QPixmap or blit are, but it gives me some clues to
use in google.     :)

Thanks for your help

Peter



From mail at mjclift.freeserve.co.uk  Sat Aug 14 09:52:13 2004
From: mail at mjclift.freeserve.co.uk (Malcolm Clift)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 14:52:13 +0100
Subject: random / lists
Message-ID: <cfl5d1$f8p$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>

Hi All,

I have this so far.


import random

things = xrange(int(raw_input("choose no of things (1-8)? ")))

state = [None,None]

l = []

for x in things:
    tmp = random.choice('abcd')
    print state
    while tmp in state[0:2]:
        tmp = random.choice('abcd')
    print "choice ",x+1," is ", tmp
    l.append(tmp)

state[x%2] = tmp

print 1

Could someone help in showing me how to control it like this? That if 'a'
is choosen it can only be followed by say b or d, if 'd' is choosen it can
only be followed by c or b etc... I can see how to do this after the list
has been generated with if statements, but that is impractical. As it is
at the moment it stop two of the same letters being given one after
another or the same letter occurring with only one space interviening.

Thanks,

Calvin




From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Wed Aug  4 09:20:59 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Wed,  4 Aug 2004 23:20:59 +1000
Subject: EOL - scanning single-quoted string
Message-ID: <1091625659.4110e2bb6db73@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

I am developing an application for a pocket pc.
i have a small gui which allows users to select files using a file dialog
box. however the file, selected is represented as '/My Documents/test'
which when i try to open gives me an error.
so what i would like to do is replace '/' by the windows '\'
however when i try
str='/My Documents/test'
re.subn('/', '\', str)

i get an error saying - SyntaxError: EOL while scanning single-quoted
string

how can i replace the slashes.

thanks

cheers

--
Ajay Brar,
CS Honours 2004
Smart Internet Technology Research Group





----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Thu Aug 12 14:31:06 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:31:06 -0400
Subject: Keyword substitution in string
In-Reply-To: <I2CH9G.I09@news.muni.cz>
References: <I2CH9G.I09@news.muni.cz>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121426490.9323-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Ondrej Krajicek wrote:

> in my application, I want to do keyword substituion in
> a string from a dictionary. The problem is indeed
> easy to solve, but seems quite common to me, so I wonder
> wheter there is already a function in Python which
> does just that.

Indeed there is:

> subst('Hello, <key1> <key2>!', {'key1': 'Python', 'key2': 'rules' })
> 
> gives:
> 
> 'Hello, Python rules!'

'Hello, %(key1)s %(key2)s!' % {'key1': 'Python', 'key2': 'rules'}

gives:

'Hello, Python rules!'

:)

Aside from the (key) after the %, this works just like normal % 
substitution.



From dmidd at chartermi.net  Thu Aug 19 11:08:13 2004
From: dmidd at chartermi.net (Daryl Middleton)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:08:13 -0400
Subject: Merging pdf documents with Python
Message-ID: <HEEJLFGOHEALHFOLJAJNCEFICCAA.dmidd@chartermi.net>

Can python be used to merge pdf documents into a single pdf file so that I
do not have to manually insert each one. Thanks



From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Mon Aug 23 22:14:52 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:14:52 -0700
Subject: Help with trapping an exception
References: <qe3li01voq3qpj67sldp899qi2ufmpdvu9@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <p0lqv1-qjc.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

pythos wrote:
> not defined, I easily figured out the problem.  But I need to use
> "try" and "except" to catch the exception, otherwise my program will
> end abruptly without finishing.  So how can I see the "NameError:
> global name 'Environment' is not defined" message in the "except"
> section of my code?  A call to sys.exc_info() doesn't show it.  Is
> there another function I can use?  Thanks.

I suggest using this code from the Python cookbook:

http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/52215

I also strongly recommend getting the dead tree version as
well.  That recipe and many others are in it, and it is all
well laid out with lots of good discussion.

Roger 




From peter at engcorp.com  Wed Aug 18 21:15:01 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 21:15:01 -0400
Subject: test please ignire
In-Reply-To: <cg0j2a$7rj$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
References: <cg0j2a$7rj$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4123FF15.9000001@engcorp.com>

Sorry, Tom, can't ignire this.  There is a newsgroup
specifically for tests, called misc.test, and that's
where you should be doing your testing, not in
comp.lang.python.  Thank you.


From nelson at monkey.org  Mon Aug 23 20:00:30 2004
From: nelson at monkey.org (Nelson Minar)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 00:00:30 GMT
Subject: Python SOAP?
References: <cgdqvj$2eo$1@bagan.srce.hr>
Message-ID: <cpazn4le76p.fsf@cabernet.nelson.monkey.org>

Ivan Voras <ivoras at __-geri.cc.fer.hr> writes:
> Is anybody using SOAP with Python "seriously"[1]? It seems there's a
> number of implementations out there, but most aren't developed any
> more. Specifically, I hadn't found a library that supports "sessions"
> with SOAP, implemented with HTTP cookies to achieve server-object
> persistance.

There are two active SOAP projects I'm aware of - ZSI and SOAPpy. They
share a home:
  http://pywebsvcs.sourceforge.net/

I'd characterize both client toolkits as useful but flawed. I've run
into a lot of interop problems when trying to talk to Apache Axis/Java
based services. They seem to work better with the old rpc/encoded
style but don't work as well with the modern document/literal style.

I don't know if the specific HTTP cookie persistence you're asking for
has been implemented in either. For what it's worth, I wouldn't count
on that approach working reliably in many SOAP implementations.


From cjw at sympatico.ca  Sat Aug 14 19:39:49 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 19:39:49 -0400
Subject: Subclassing numarray's arrays
In-Reply-To: <df3955c3.0408140908.1b9bfb63@posting.google.com>
References: <df3955c3.0408140908.1b9bfb63@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <7pxTc.44307$Mq1.2286665@news20.bellglobal.com>



Mizrandir wrote:
> I'd like to subclass numarray's array. I'd like to add some methods
> and override others like __init__. I don't know how to do this and
> haven't found help searching the manual or the web, can someone help?
> 
> For example imagine I just want to do something as simple as making a
> subclass "NewClass" with the __init__ method overridden so that the
> behaviour would be:
> 
> 
>>>>a = NewClass(2)
>>>>print a
> 
> [[2 2]
>  [2 2]]
> 
> How could that be done?
> 
> Thanks in advance, miz.
Miz,

Numarray wasn't designed with subclassing in mind, but there are
workarounds for most problems.

You might try something like:
import numarray.numarraycore as _num
class NewClass(_num.NumArray):
   def __init__(self, n, a):
     ''' n provides the length of each dimension,
         a is the constant value to be plugged.
       '''
     arr= _num.array(sequence= n * n * [a], shape= (n, n))
     self.__setstate__(arr.__getstate__())

   def __repr__(self):
     " Return printable representation of instance."
     className= self.__class__.__name__
     className= className.zfill(5).replace('0', ' ')
     arr= self.copy()
     arr.__class__= _num.NumArray
     rep= className + _num.NumArray.__repr__(arr)[5:]
     return rep

   def __str__(self):
     " Return a pretty printed string of the instance."
     stri= self.copy()
     stri.__class__= _num.NumArray
     return _num.NumArray.__str__(stri)


if __name__ == '__main__':
   a= NewClass(2, 2)
   print a
   b= NewClass(3, 4)
   print `b`

I hope that this helps.

Colin W.



From export at hope.cz  Tue Aug 10 15:43:30 2004
From: export at hope.cz (Lad)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 12:43:30 -0700
Subject: Apache web server and CGI
References: <81a41dd.0408090447.7f27a092@posting.google.com>
	<10hf2ugjngver5e@corp.supernews.com>
	<81a41dd.0408092306.264beed@posting.google.com>
	<slrnchhcv5.mtn.news@woody.datatailors.com>
Message-ID: <81a41dd.0408101143.43fea836@posting.google.com>

Peter van Kampen <news at woody.datatailors.com> wrote in message news:<slrnchhcv5.mtn.news at woody.datatailors.com>...
> In article <81a41dd.0408092306.264beed at posting.google.com>, Lad wrote:
> > [Tue Aug 10 08:51:32 2004] [error] [client 127.0.0.1] (2)No such file
> > or directory: script not found or unable to stat: c:/program
> > files/apache group/apache/cgi-bintest.py
> > 
> > The name of script is test.py and is in cgi-bin (Apache subdirectory).
> 
> In my experience cgi-bin is rarely just a subdir of apache's www-root. The
> name cgi-bin is in itself not some magical name that 'turns CGI on'. You
> have to configure it on your httpd.conf. Here's a relevant bit of mine:
> 
> #
> # ScriptAlias: This controls which directories contain server scripts.
> # ScriptAliases are essentially the same as Aliases, except that
> # documents in the realname directory are treated as applications and
> # run by the server when requested rather than as documents sent to the client.
> # The same rules about trailing "/" apply to ScriptAlias directives as to
> # Alias.
> #
> ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/ /usr/lib/cgi-bin/
> 
> #
> # "/usr/lib/cgi-bin" could be changed to whatever your ScriptAliased
> # CGI directory exists, if you have that configured.
> #
> <Directory /usr/lib/cgi-bin/>
>     AllowOverride None
>     Options ExecCGI
>     Order allow,deny
>     Allow from all
> </Directory>
> 
> Also just to be sure the first line of test.py should be sth like this on
> windows:
> 
> #! c:\path\to\python.exe
> 
> > BTW, how can I set up a different directory for cgi scripts? For
> > example I would like to have all my scripts in
> > C:\Scripts\MyScripts
> 
> This is probably clear by now...
> 
> Hth,
> 
> PterK


Thanks Peter for help. Now I can run cgi scripts in default 
c:/program files/apache group/apache/cgi-bin/
directory.
The problem was that there was not last "/"

But how can I forced the Apache to allowed to run scripts in a
different directory for example C:\Test\MyScripts\
Thanks for help
Lad


From nav+posts at bandersnatch.org  Tue Aug 17 15:01:17 2004
From: nav+posts at bandersnatch.org (Nick Vargish)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 15:01:17 -0400
Subject: mailman mailing list program
References: <PPidncd3ycQ1mbzcRVn-gg@comcast.com>
	<mailman.1758.1092684902.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Qb-dncqEe9nkjbzcRVn-uw@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <m3u0v1y4g2.fsf@tanelorn.bandersnatch.org>

"Carol Carrot" <CarolCarrot at sofsof.net> writes:

> now what is +1 QOTW.supposed to mean?

Someone just voted for (+1) your statement as a Quote of the Week,
which appears at the start of the weekly summary...

Nick

-- 
#  sigmask  ||  0.2  ||  20030107  ||  public domain  ||  feed this to a python
print reduce(lambda x,y:x+chr(ord(y)-1),' Ojdl!Wbshjti!=obwAcboefstobudi/psh?')


From tor.iver.wilhelmsen at broadpark.no  Fri Aug  6 11:27:05 2004
From: tor.iver.wilhelmsen at broadpark.no (Tor Iver Wilhelmsen)
Date: 06 Aug 2004 17:27:05 +0200
Subject: @decorators
References: <d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa@posting.google.com>
	<eTMQc.36328$K53.24420@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <ufz70gud2.fsf@broadpark.no>

"Neil Hodgson" <nhodgson at bigpond.net.au> writes:

>    global x
>    x = 9

I think what he meant was that the decorators in effect make for
"hidden continuation", e.g.

@foo
def fooDecorated():
    pass

is like

@foo def fooDecorated():
    pass:

when other line continuations are explicit.


From rnd at onego.ru  Sun Aug 15 03:01:40 2004
From: rnd at onego.ru (Roman Suzi)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 11:01:40 +0400 (MSD)
Subject: autocoding and the new MS book regarding software factories
In-Reply-To: <n5yTc.22403$9Y6.15819@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>
References: <n5yTc.22403$9Y6.15819@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408151025430.1851@rnd.onego.ru>

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004, threeseas wrote:

>(CLI #1) + (GUI) + (IPC) = the three primary UIs which is like paint
>having three primary colors, for which you can create any color in the
>spectrum. Take away one and you greatly limit what you can do... ok..
>using these three primary UIs in processing the (CLI #2) it becomes
>possible and probable that an autocoding environment can and will be
>developed.
>
>additionally by adding a voice to text interface to the CLI #1 you can
>achieve the ability of the end user/consumer to ask for a program to be
>created and the system will do it.
>
>by patenting it..... all your base will be owned by MS... do a google
>search in "autocoding" and be sure to set aside any arrogance and
>ignorance you may and probably do have.
>
>Anyway, since there are those controlling python coders that don't like
>me....  thought I'd post this. And to the GNU group.... Sorry RMS, but
>software just ain't free untill anyone can easily create or cause the
>computer to create it for them... for FREE... And real software
>engineers that believe in the Free Software Foundation, FOSS, GPL, etc..
>will understand this...

Well, there is no scientific foundation and in fact science tells us that
autocoding is not possible for arbitrary tasks. I believe, it is possible to
create autocoding (automatically generated) software for any little enough
problem domain, maybe, say, for writing GUI. However there is theoretical
abyss between modern computers and humans. It is called formalisation.
Only programmer's brain is capable to cross this abyss formalising any
non-trivial novel task.

And for trivial task we already have an interface:

$ grep -i word file | sort | uniq | wc

Saying the above, I must admit that more tasks become trivial as new
instruments arrive. So, programming users (CP4A anybody?) can
solve their 90% of their tasks by almost mechanical combination
of existing tools.

*

I imaging Year 2015:

Computer:
 - by your command
GvR: (standing at his computer)
 - computer, make Python 3.0 release. The grammar I sketched
   on the paper in the scanner. Please guess semantics.
   If in doubt post to c.l.p a question. If c.l.p in doubt make a
   poll. If in doubt of poll results make another poll on how to
   interpret poll results.
Computer:
 - YES, SIR!
GvR:
 - Good.
(after half an our)

Computer:
  - I need your help
GvR:
  - yes?
Computer:
  - please affirm you want to pay $10k for the Microsoft license
  and also Python 3 violates 20 patents.
GvR:
  - Oh no!... (calling sponsors)
(after half an hour)
 Computer:
  - Python 3 ready. Total cost $21k.
GvR:
  (typing "python3" at his terminal)
  - Oh... But this is #D...
Computer:
  - under given constraints this is the best solution. C.l.p poll
  shows 52% of people support this as it is familiar to them.
GvR:
  (upset, playing with his time machine controls)
(1 minute later)
Timbot:
  - there is another option
GvR:
  - What?
Timbot:
  - freeware aka OSS



Sincerely yours, Roman Suzi
-- 
rnd at onego.ru =\= My AI powered by GNU/Linux RedHat 7.3


From vronskij at post.sk  Tue Aug 17 07:33:13 2004
From: vronskij at post.sk (vronskij at post.sk)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 04:33:13 -0700
Subject: How big can a Python program be?
Message-ID: <903b3fba.0408170333.49ce3944@posting.google.com>

Hi,

A C program can be hundreds of thousands lines of code big.
C++ millions.

How about Python?

Suppose , you are a sole programmer (lonewolf). How many lines can one handle?

Thanks,


jan bodnar


From pythos  Fri Aug 20 01:09:29 2004
From: pythos (pythos)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 01:09:29 -0400
Subject: How to change a file's date/timestamp?
Message-ID: <he1bi0d5hdfra6tnu8mbgskdeqaf52eur5@4ax.com>

How do you change a file's last-modified date and timestamp in Python?



From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 29 13:34:52 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 13:34:52 -0400
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
In-Reply-To: <cgt3s8$2rv$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgrecn$dgk$0$216.39.172.122@th
	<cgt3s8$2rv$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <cgt43s$2rv$2@sea.gmane.org>

Paul Morrow wrote:

> Anthony Baxter wrote:
> 
>> On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 12:10:13 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> For example, in the following function def, the comments specify (what I
>>> believe is) the author's intention behind each assignment.
>>>
>>>    def circu(diameter):
>>>       """Info about circu."""        # defines circu.__doc__
>>>       __author__ = 'Paul Morrow'     # defines circu.__author__
>>>       __features__ = memoized        # defines circu.__features__
>>>       pi = 3.14                      # local variable definition
>>>       return pi * diameter
>>
>>
>>
>> Not in any Python I know of. I look at that and I think "oo, local 
>> variables".
>> That you have a different belief doesn't make it right - I remain
>> _extremely_ unconvinced.
>>
>> Anthony
> 
> 
> My belief doesn't make it right, that's true.  But I think that a 
> preponderance of supporting evidence does.
> 
> Have you seen a significant number of cases where a function uses 
> __xxx__ attributes as local variables?  Have you seen any?
> 
> Can you craft a function definition that uses __xxx__ attributes as 
> local variables, where the majority of experienced Pythonistas would 
> agree that the double underscores are warranted?
> 
> Paul
> 
> 

Ugh... Sorry, I wrote that too hastily.  Let me restate.

Have you seen a significant number of cases where a function uses
__xxx__ names for local variables?  Have you seen any?

Can you craft a function definition that uses __xxx__ names for
local variables, where the majority of experienced Pythonistas would
agree that the double underscores are warranted?

Paul



From josh at chatgris.com  Wed Aug  4 03:34:32 2004
From: josh at chatgris.com (Joshua Moore-Oliva)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 03:34:32 -0400
Subject: converting to string
In-Reply-To: <41108A2E.7030507@mail.usyd.edu.au>
References: <41108A2E.7030507@mail.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <200408040334.32348.josh@chatgris.com>

Actually, I believe that marshal is the most efficient method to convert a python object to a string.

http://docs.python.org/lib/module-marshal.html

Joshua Moore-Oliva


On August 4, 2004 03:03 am, Ajay Brar wrote:
> hi!
> 
> how do i go about converting a Python object or tuple to a string.
> i am currently doing
> import cPickle as pickle
> str = pickle.dumps(obj)
> 
> is that efficient? is that the best way to do it?
> 
> thanks
> 
> cheers
> 
> -- 
> Ajay Brar
> CS Honours 2004
> Smart Internet Technology Research Group
> 
> http://www.it.usyd.edu.au/~abrar1
> 


From rich.teer at rite-group.com  Fri Aug 27 01:35:42 2004
From: rich.teer at rite-group.com (Rich Teer)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 05:35:42 GMT
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
In-Reply-To: <jh5ti01keef8ov2kjpdg0hp9nfi0oj45ma@4ax.com>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.SOL.4.58.0408251722510.568@zaphod.rite-group.com>
	<jh5ti01keef8ov2kjpdg0hp9nfi0oj45ma@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.58.0408262235270.568@zaphod.rite-group.com>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Reynir Stef?nsson wrote:

> And then there's this crazy little thing called love...

Nah - that was Queen!

-- 
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA, author of "Solaris Systems Programming",
published in August 2004.

President,
Rite Online Inc.

Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-group.com/rich


From donn at u.washington.edu  Tue Aug 10 14:10:52 2004
From: donn at u.washington.edu (Donn Cave)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 11:10:52 -0700
Subject: Fixing socket.makefile()
References: <pJXRc.2959$5j7.2643@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <donn-800198.11105210082004@gnus01.u.washington.edu>

In article <pJXRc.2959$5j7.2643 at newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>,
 Bryan Olson <fakeaddress at nowhere.org> wrote:
...
> The problem is that makefile() returns a Python object that has
> its own local buffer.  The recv() call reads directly from the
> socket, oblivious to any data queued in the file object's
> buffer.  The problem is not limited to recv(); select(), and
> perhaps other calls, will ignore the buffer and look directly at
> the socket.  Output buffering appears to have a similar problem.
> 
> Now look up socket.makefile().readline().  It gets one byte at a
> time. It will get the byte from the Python buffer if the buffer
> is non-empty, otherwise it will try to recv() one byte at a
> time, directly from the socket.  By itself, readline() never
> over-reads the socket; if select() and recv() would work
> correctly before the readline(), they'll work after.  While
> correct, reading one byte at a time is painfully slow.

I don't get this.  Has socket.py changed this much since 2.2?
The readline I'm looking at says self._sock.recv(self._rbufsize),
so you would only get this behavior if you specified a buffer
size of 1 or less, and read() does the same - so you could do
this to yourself, but not specially just with readline.

At any rate, I think it would put this in better perspective
to recall that pipes, terminals and in general any "slow"
device has the same issues, and that they work out the same
in Python as in the original C, with socket file descriptors
in place of socket objects and stdio file pointers in place
of file objects.

It's definitely a problem, and some kind of solution might be
well received, but it needs to be portable (so forget MSG_PEEK
unless you're really confident that it will be supported on
every platform that now supports sockets to some useful degree),
and it would be nice to apply to the problem in general and not
just sockets.  I think the root of the problem really is that
select() doesn't look at process buffers in fileobject instances,
and it can't be made to do that because that information isn't
available from the stdio file pointer underneath the fileobject.
So, you need a replacement for fileobject, to start with.

   Donn Cave, donn at u.washington.edu


From po-yung.liu at pandora.be  Mon Aug 23 12:56:19 2004
From: po-yung.liu at pandora.be (Vent d'Est - East Wind)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:56:19 GMT
Subject: 100 % portable ?
In-Reply-To: <sl1nv1-7jm.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
References: <rp_Vc.221989$xO.10939509@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<sl1nv1-7jm.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
Message-ID: <TkpWc.223279$3C7.10910854@phobos.telenet-ops.be>


>     http://dotamatic.sf.net
>     http://bitpim.org
> 
> Both are open source so you can see for yourself.  Both use the
> clipboard, do printing, have online help, are distributed so
> that the user doesn't need Python on their machine already etc.
> 
> Roger 
> 
> 

i see your website , but i see for mac os x you using cocoa interfacing
i don't understand isnt WXpython from WXwindow and have in all system
same apparence ?

same for linux i see a like kde 2 interfacing using

seems each you use each interface of each system
(and not just one for every system)

is that only using wxpython or add some other graphic toolkit port and 
using cocoa , kde interface ?

thankx for reply




From andrew-pythonlist at puzzling.org  Thu Aug  5 04:23:58 2004
From: andrew-pythonlist at puzzling.org (Andrew Bennetts)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 18:23:58 +1000
Subject: Decorator syntax
In-Reply-To: <JEiQc.16955$_25.574@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1173.1091670172.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<38ednYT1NLz1P4zcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
	<JEiQc.16955$_25.574@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20040805082358.GD10201@frobozz>

On Thu, Aug 05, 2004 at 04:25:13AM +0000, Paul McGuire wrote:
[...]
> 
> I fear that $, ^ and ~ are just around the corner.

No need to fear: ^ and ~ are already there.

>>> ~1
-2
>>> 1^2 
3

-Andrew.



From mudd at vex.net  Fri Aug  6 09:36:44 2004
From: mudd at vex.net (mudd at vex.net)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:36:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: static python build?
Message-ID: <42353.12.151.80.14.1091799404.squirrel@webmail.vex.net>

How do I build Python so that I get static libraries instead of dynamic
libraries (e.g. build/lib.solaris-2.8-sun4u-2.3/math.so)?

John




From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Wed Aug 11 05:47:05 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 19:47:05 +1000
Subject: rsa implementation question
In-Reply-To: <5GkSc.124$O72.121@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>
References: <1092200894.4119a9beb1978@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>
	<200408110852.57937.heikowu@ceosg.de>
	<mailman.1483.1092208637.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<5GkSc.124$O72.121@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <1092217625.4119eb1976a92@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

>  > i am using RSa for signing documents and hence decrypting and then
>  > encrypting to verify?
>
> Unfortunately yes, that seems to be what pycrypto is doing.
> The method is now discredited.

could you elaborate on that? i thought signing by decrypting is the way to
do it.

thanks

cheers


>
>  > what i was rather trying to get at was what if the plaintext is too
>  > large?
>
> Always hash and pad, for any size message.  I suggest the SHA-1,
> hash function, which is in the Python standard library as "sha".
>
> Next you need a padding scheme that formats the message into a
> block suitable for the RSA private key operation.  The signing
> method of PKCS#1 version 1.5 is the most popular RSA signature
> scheme, and when the payload is a hash digest it has no known
> serious weaknesses.
>
> The function encode_block_from_message, below, will hash a given
> message, then build and return a EMSA-PKCS1-v1_5 "Encoded
> Message" (EM) from it.  The returned EM is suitable for signing
> with the pycrypto RSA sign function.
>
> I agree with about half of Heiko Wundram's response.
>
>
> #  sha1_header_tuple is the prefix of the DER encoding of a:
> #     sequene(sequence(oid, NULL), octet_string)
> #  where the octet string has length 20, and completes the encoding.
> #
> sha1_header_tuple = (0x30, 0x21, 0x30, 0x9, 0x6, 0x5, 0x2b, 0xe,
>          0x3, 0x2, 0x1a, 0x5, 0x0, 0x4, 0x14)
>
> sha1_header = ''.join(map(chr, sha1_header_tuple))
>
>
> def sha1_hash_and_encode(message):
>      return sha1_header + sha.new(message).digest()
>
>
> def encode_block_from_message(message, intended_length):
>      """Algorithm EMSA_PKCS1-v1_5 from PKCS 1 version 2
>         intended_length should be one octet less that modulus length
>      """
>      der_encoding = sha1_hash_and_encode(message)
>      assert intended_length >= len(der_encoding) + 10
>      pad_string = chr(0xFF) * (intended_length - len(der_encoding) - 2)
>      result = chr(1) + pad_string + chr(0) + der_encoding
>      return result
>
>
> --
> --Bryan
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom  Wed Aug 25 08:54:46 2004
From: unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom (Michel Claveau - abstraction méta-galactique non triviale en fuite perpétuelle.)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:54:46 +0200
Subject: module functions list
References: <cghu3v$afp$02$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <cgi27c$q5q$1@news-reader4.wanadoo.fr>


dir(MODULE)

print type(dir(MODULE))    #===>>>    <type 'list'>










From davidb at mcs.st-and.ac.uk  Fri Aug 20 07:50:12 2004
From: davidb at mcs.st-and.ac.uk (David Boddie)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 04:50:12 -0700
Subject: ANN: Python Decrypt PDF script -- builds on pdftools
References: <mailman.1868.1092839116.5135.python-announce-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4de76ee2.0408200350.3ccb9c50@posting.google.com>

follower at gmail.com (Follower) wrote in message news:<mailman.1868.1092839116.5135.python-announce-list at python.org>...

> I wanted to extract the meta-data from an encrypted/protected PDF file
> and could not find any Python scripts to do this. So, I decided to
> write something myself, the result follows.
> 
> This demonstration utility requires the `pdftools` files from
> <http://www.boddie.org.uk/david/Projects/Python/pdftools/> but the
> decryption functions themselves should be usable with other Python PDF
> libraries.

I'm glad that someone found the tools useful. :-)
Unfortunately, I couldn't find any protected PDF files to test your script
out on. Can you provide some URLs?

> Documentation is marginal and all I can say is that worked on the
> three PDF files I tested it on... :-)

Do you want to supply a patch for pdftools to allow these sorts of files
to be supported transparently?

David


From fumanchu at amor.org  Sun Aug  1 21:49:41 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 18:49:41 -0700
Subject: The term "Protocol"
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022DCD@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Bruce Eckel wrote:
> Sunday, August 1, 2004, 6:51:15 PM, Tim Peters wrote:
> 
> > Iteration is a protocol, not a type.
> 
> I know the term "protocol" has been used to describe a language
> feature in a number of languages, but since we have no official
> "protocol" support in Python I'm interested in what "we" mean by this
> term. I'm going to guess that a protocol is like an interface in Java,
> except that it doesn't have a concrete definition anywhere, but it is
> implied through convention and use. Thus a protocol is a "latent
> interface." Am I close? I'd like to understand this term better.

In my (short) experience with the Python community, I've found that
Pythonistas use the term "protocol" to mean a convention which is stated
in the docs, as opposed to enforced via syntax. In the case of iter,
your object either responds to those calls (__iter__ and next) or it
does not--no inspection (or enforcement) of class or signature
necessary. Note that this does *not* imply that a protocol "doesn't have
a concrete definition". Python simply lands on the side of convention
more often than many of what are called the "B&D" languages (which love
to enforce convention in syntax), and technical terms like "protocol"
naturally get bent to accomodate that. ;)


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From james.collier at xtra.co.nz  Wed Aug 11 06:40:54 2004
From: james.collier at xtra.co.nz (James Collier)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 22:40:54 +1200
Subject: Capturing repeating group matches in regular expressions
Message-ID: <4119F7B6.6090003@xtra.co.nz>

Is it possible to capture the results of repeating group matches in the 
python regular expression module?

To illustrate, what I want is:

 >>> re1 = re.compile("([a-z]W)([a-z]X)+([a-z]Y)");
 >>> mo1 = re.match("aWbXcXdXeXfY");

 >>> print mo1.groupsButNotAsWeKnowIt()
('aW','bX','cX','dX','eX','fY')

instead of

 >>> print mo1.groups()
("aW", "eX", "fY")

... which captures only the last match from the second group.

Of course, one option is to break out the substring containing the 
repeating group and then use split() or findall() within the substring, 
but, but, but ... I'd like to do it in one hit if possible.

I believe someone has raised a similar question before, but I can't find 
a  definitive answer.  It may be so stunningly obvious that nobody ever 
bothers to answer - if so, could some kind soul please humour me and at 
least point me to what I'm not seeing in the Fine Manual.

     Thanks,
        James.


From siegfried.gonzi at kfunigraz.ac.at  Tue Aug 10 06:57:32 2004
From: siegfried.gonzi at kfunigraz.ac.at (Siegfried Gonzi)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:57:32 +0200
Subject: How do I get IDLE on Suse Linux 9.x?
References: <0G1Sc.149588$fv.89578@fe2.columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4118AA1C.81E92904@kfunigraz.ac.at>

michael wrote:

> Hi.
>
> I am reasonably experienced with Python (and love it!) on Windows. I am a
> programmer that toils in c++ on Win 32 mostly but just to learn more, I am
> playing with Suse 9. Linux.
>
> Of course the first thing I tried to fire up was Python. From the command
> line, I can access Python 2.3 with no problem.
>
> I tried to run / search for IDLE which I thought was a standard install on
> any python installation but it is not present.
>
> My question is this: Should I just use a text editor and go without IDLE? Is
> there another IDE standard on Linux? Do I need to download something to get
> IDLE?

As far as I remember (I do not use Python any longer) you can do the following:

Get  "ActiveState Python":

www.activestate.com/Python.plex

I once faced the same problem with SuSE Linux 8.0. I had bad luck because I had
installed the "normal" SuSE version only. I think in order to get idle running
you need professional SuSE Linux (for all the header files).

Fensterbrett

>
>



From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 11 13:10:53 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:10:53 -0400
Subject: Rather than decorators, how about sections?
In-Reply-To: <1C74C038-EBB6-11D8-8889-000A95857E5C@eischet.com>
References: <cfdegs$5oo$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<1C74C038-EBB6-11D8-8889-000A95857E5C@eischet.com>
Message-ID: <cfdjus$qjo$1@sea.gmane.org>

Stefan Eischet wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> do we really need this stuff just to say "staticmethod" and 
> "classmethod"? How about:
> 
> class Foo(object):
>     def baz():
>         print "Static Method"
>     def bar(self):
>         print "Method"
>     def spam(Foo):
>         print "Class Method"
> 

I like it!  It's simple, clear, ... Why isn't this the hands-down best 
solution? Why do we want to be more verbose than necessary?

I wonder if there are people out there who've chosen something other 
than *self* for the 1st arg (shame on them if they did! <grin>) who's 
code this would break.  I've never understood why we didn't require that 
it be called self in the first place --- why give them more than one way 
to do *that*?




From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz  Tue Aug 10 22:07:28 2004
From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:07:28 +1200
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1202.1091723710.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>	<mailman.1199.1091721880.5135.python-list@python.org>	<2-SdnZCwNs1SwI_cRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1202.1091723710.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2ntdb0F4je2jU1@uni-berlin.de>

Heiko Wundram wrote:
> I don't think comparing the @ syntax to Klingon is fair to the proposed syntax 
> for decorators.

Ah, but that's because you're not giving the proper guttural
inflection to the pronunciation of '@'...

-- 
Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept,
University of Canterbury,	
Christchurch, New Zealand
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg



From lonetwin at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 08:05:49 2004
From: lonetwin at gmail.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:35:49 +0530
Subject: esoteric question about dict keys (Re: age of Python
	programmers)
In-Reply-To: <4125D015.9090204@urv.es>
References: <4125D015.9090204@urv.es>
Message-ID: <5a309bd30408200505375a0056@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
> Now the question. In "normal" dicts its not possible to use dictionaries
> (nor other kinds of mutable objects) as keys, if I undersand correctly
> this is a technical requirement. If I write my own dictionary-like
> object, on wich the mutability of the keys is not a technical issue, is
> considered blasphemous the use of dicts as keys? For example, querying
> an SQL table can be partially modelled as a dictionary access:
> 
> table[pkey_value] gives a record for this primary key
> 
> table[{'somefield':somevalue}] returns all the records where
> somefield=somevalue

...but the whole point of having keys is to uniquely identify a
record, so table[<whatever>] should always return *one* uniquely keyed
object.

Wouldn't something like 
     [ values for value in table['somefield'] if value == 'somevalue']
or
     table['somefield']['somevalue']
 be more a appropriate model ??

HTH
Steve


On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:19:01 +0200, Alexis Roda <alexis.roda at urv.es> wrote:
> This is my first message to the list, so I'll present myself and add my
> contribution to the "age of python programmes" thread.
> 
> My name is Alexis Roda, I'm 36 - 7/365 years old, I started programming
> with python two years ago, mainly because I started playing with zope.
> At first I was a reluctant Perl converted, although initially I hated
> python (well, I hated zope wich make me hate python) now I'm in love
> with both python and zope. I started programming at 15 with a Casio
> calculator (a kind of assembler), then an Amstrad CPC464 (Basic), a
> Macintosh Plus (Pascal, C, Lisp, assembler) and finally come to the
> PC/Linux world (assembler, C, C++, Perl, bash scripting, elisp and python).
> 
> Now the question. In "normal" dicts its not possible to use dictionaries
> (nor other kinds of mutable objects) as keys, if I undersand correctly
> this is a technical requirement. If I write my own dictionary-like
> object, on wich the mutability of the keys is not a technical issue, is
> considered blasphemous the use of dicts as keys? For example, querying
> an SQL table can be partially modelled as a dictionary access:
> 
> table[pkey_value] gives a record for this primary key
> 
> table[{'somefield':somevalue}] returns all the records where
> somefield=somevalue
> 
> or is preferable to define a query() method for these uses and restrict
> __getitem__ to mutable objects for the sake of consistency?
> 
> TIA
> --
>                                     ////
>                                    (@ @)
> ----------------------------oOO----(_)----OOo--------------------------
> <>               Ojo por ojo y el mundo acabara ciego
> /\ Alexis Roda - Universitat Rovira i Virgili - Reus, Tarragona (Spain)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From tdelaney at avaya.com  Tue Aug 10 02:04:04 2004
From: tdelaney at avaya.com (Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy))
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:04:04 +1000
Subject: Importance of C# (was Re: IronPython-0.6 is now available!)
Message-ID: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01CF3E21@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>

grv575 wrote:

> If you want MI to specify that a class is both A and B...then which
> semantics (method implementation) should it use if A and B have
> different implementations of a certain method?  Don't you really just
> want to specify the class is A and is B to the extent that it
> implements the interface of A and the interface of B?  Really MI
> causes more issues and confusion than it solves.

http://www.python.org/2.2/descrintro.html#cooperation

Tim Delaney


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 21:59:02 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 01:59:02 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: J2 0-2-6 is available
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E52@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
	<mailman.2310.1093386985.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<RIRWc.6401$D7.5685@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
	<XoednXx_JtNAcbbcRVn-pw@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <loom.20040825T035757-314@post.gmane.org>

Doug Holton <insert <at> spam.here> writes:
> We'll have a "with" (or similar keyword) that will work like this:
> 
> with self:
>      .property1 = True
>      .init()
> 
> "with" and "using" are way too similar, although they would be doing 
> *completely* different things.

Actually, there's an interesting argument that the "with" for decorators and 
the "with" above can be thought of in similar terms:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2004-August/235993.html

I don't know if I agree with it, but I think I'm at least convinced they don't 
have to mean *completely* different things.

STeve





From mwilson at the-wire.com  Thu Aug 26 12:21:47 2004
From: mwilson at the-wire.com (Mel Wilson)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:21:47 -0400
Subject: Why return None?
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2361.1093446779.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<DA6Xc.213557$J06.90595@pd7tw2no>
	<1gj4fj6.kfkov1iafzb2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b4gLBls/K/hY089yn@the-wire.com>

In article <1gj4fj6.kfkov1iafzb2Nleaxit at yahoo.com>,
aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) wrote:
>In Python 2.4, by the way, reversed(x) [[using the new built-in function
>'reversed']] is most often preferable to x[::-1].  reversed returns an
>iterator, optimized for looping on, but if you need a list, tuple, etc,
>you can just call list(reversed(x)) and so on.

   Now that it's too late, I wish it were called
'reversing', after reading the story of somebody who got an
iterator, thinking it was a thing.  Then made a dictionary
out of it twice, and got one good dict and one empty dict.

   'reverse' and 'reversed' remind me of Extended Memory and
Expanded Memory.  One was one, and one the other, but which
was which?

        Regards.        Mel.


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug  9 13:58:37 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 13:58:37 -0400
Subject: decorators as a special case of an @ operator?
In-Reply-To: <87d620cld8.fsf@uwo.ca>
References: <d11dcfba.0408060919.10c7cdd6@posting.google.com>	<87llgocrgq.fsf@uwo.ca>
	<DdSdnQot5MbxAIrcRVn-uA@powergate.ca> <87d620cld8.fsf@uwo.ca>
Message-ID: <I_OdnYWJRvrPJorcRVn-qw@powergate.ca>

Dan Christensen wrote:
> Is there any reason that python doesn't automatically
> continue all incomplete binary operators, allowing
> 
>    x = a_very_long_expression +
>        another_long_expression
> ?

Very likely, as is usual with Python, to avoid implicitly
assuming something that could well be wrong, thus failing
in a possibly very hard to find way, without warning.

x = a_very_long_expression +
some_function_that_might_return_a_value()

Now, was the first line a typo, with a missing extra value,
or was it really intended to add the result of the function
call on the second line?

x = a_very_long_expression + some_more
some_function_that_might_return_a_value()

If this is what the programmer intended, the implicit
approach could be disastrous.

-Peter


From jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl  Sat Aug  7 19:11:53 2004
From: jzgoda at gazeta.usun.pl (Jarek Zgoda)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 01:11:53 +0200
Subject: Image manipulation library under a GPL-compatible license?
In-Reply-To: <2nl3suF1vntdU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <2nl3suF1vntdU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <cf3nir$d2v$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl>

Leif K-Brooks wrote:

> I need to do some simple image editing (pretty much just scaling) in a 
> GPLed program. Unfortunatly, both of the Python libraries for image 
> editing that I found (gdmodule and PIL) are under the GPL-incompatible 
> original BSD license. Is there another library under a friendlier library?

Use os.system() with convert from ImageMagick package. See man 1 convert 
for explanation of convert use.

-- 
Jarek Zgoda
http://jpa.berlios.de/


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Fri Aug  6 09:44:37 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:44:37 -0400
Subject: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was Decorator syntax)
In-Reply-To: <cevg5s$i91$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>
References: <6LWdnZCpvI7Ico_cRVn-hw@giganews.com>
	<cevg5s$i91$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408060938130.30087-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Michel Claveau - abstraction m?ta-galactique non triviale en fuite perp?tuelle. wrote:

> And what is the position from Kerry

"Decorators should come in a list after the function definition.  Having 
decorarotrs in a list before the function definition is surely the best 
way to go.  When you have @decorators, everything works out well.  Adding 
keywords is what this country is all about!"

> and/or Bush ?

"Is our decorators working?"



From charlie at iwec.com  Tue Aug 24 21:22:36 2004
From: charlie at iwec.com (Charlie Taylor)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:22:36 -0700
Subject: python cgi speedup on iis
Message-ID: <S.0002618790@mail1.iwec.com>



Charlie Taylor wrote:
>> I'm looking for advice on how to speed up python cgi on Windows IIS ...

Gilles Lenfant wrote:
>Use the excellent pywin32
>http://sourceforge.net/projects/pywin32
>Look at the help in the "ASP and Python" section that shows how to register
>Python as ASP engine...

pywin32 ASP turned out to be EXACTLY what I needed.

It took very little effort to convert my CGI scripts, and the performance
boost was terrific.

There are a few nagging issues regarding the reload of modified modules.
The ASP engine often overlooks changed pyc files and therefore does not
reload the modified modules (this requires IIS restarts), however, it is
very good at detecting changes to the ASP files themselves.  I've taken to
debugging imported modules via CGI scripts to get around having to restart
IIS.

Anyway, pywin32 ASP was an excellent suggestion... thank you Gilles.

ct



From tim.peters at gmail.com  Sat Aug 21 01:13:20 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 01:13:20 -0400
Subject: [newbie] Strange behavior of the re module
In-Reply-To: <ohkdi05et02gt0lkkg5hhfa5t7banb7bab@4ax.com>
References: <2ejdi01btug5iskb4ipjpj7eaprd8i7vgm@4ax.com>
	<4126CFCC.8000609@zephyrfalcon.org>
	<ohkdi05et02gt0lkkg5hhfa5t7banb7bab@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1f7befae04082022136e129e55@mail.gmail.com>

[Fred <fred at acme.com>]
> import re
> 
> #NOK
> stuff=r"\colortbl\red0\gn0"
> #NOK
> stuff=R"\colortbl\red0\gn0"
> 
> template = "BLA"
> template = re.sub('BLA', stuff, template)
> ---------------------------------------
> 
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "C:\test.py", line 9, in ?
>    template = re.sub('BLA', stuff, template)
>  File "G:\Python23\lib\sre.py", line 143, in sub
>    return _compile(pattern, 0).sub(repl, string, count)
>  File "G:\Python23\lib\sre.py", line 257, in _subx
>    template = _compile_repl(template, pattern)
>  File "G:\Python23\lib\sre.py", line 244, in _compile_repl
>    raise error, v # invalid expression
> sre_constants.error: bad group name

I can't figure out what you're trying to accomplish here, but the
error msg makes sense.  You should pause to read the docs for re.sub. 
In

    re.sub('BLA', stuff, template)

'BLA' is the regular expression, stuff is the substitution pattern,
and template is the input string.  As the docs say, \g in the
substitution pattern has special meaning, specifying the name of a
named capturing group.  Your regular expression ('BLA') has no
capturing groups (let alone named ones), so using \g in the
substitution pattern can't work.

If you really want to search for the regular expression 'BLA' in
template and replace each occurence with the string

    r"\colortbl\red0\gn0"

then you need to escape all characters with special meaning in the
substitution pattern, via re.escape():

>>> stuff=r"\colortbl\red0\gn0"
>>> template = "BLA"
>>> print re.sub('BLA', re.escape(stuff), template)
\colortbl\red0\gn0
>>>


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Sun Aug 29 12:52:32 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:52:32 -0700
Subject: os.popen problem
References: <173c23bb.0408282255.2f1be2ee@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1093798880.792738@news.commspeed.net>


"Matthew K Jensen" <mattjensen at timetospare.net> wrote in message news:173c23bb.0408282255.2f1be2ee at posting.google.com...
> Ok, this might seem odd as to why I am doing this in this certain way,
> but it's for a very specific purpose, and in so doing needs to be done
> this way. I am writing code on a winbloze box like so:
> 
I have never gotten popen to work correctly in windows, maybe you could try writing a batch file or download The Python for Windows extensions
at http://starship.python.net/crew/mhammond/ and do something like.

from win32com.client import constants
import win32con
import win32com
shell = win32com.client.Dispatch("WScript.Shell")
shell.Run('notepad.exe')
shell.SendKeys('And now for something completely different')

but SendKeys only sends to the window with focus

Tom
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From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Sun Aug  1 22:16:06 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 22:16:06 -0400
Subject: get attribute from a parent class
In-Reply-To: <410d9a13$1@clarion.carno.net.au>
References: <410d9a13$1@clarion.carno.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408012158500.14723-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu>

On Mon, 2 Aug 2004, Steve wrote:

> What I want to do is to be able to get class A's 'var' variable from the 
> nested class B. For example, I want to be able to do something like:
> print "I can see you %s" % a.var
> 
> 
> but... I don't want to make 'var' a class variable. I want it to be an 
> instance variable but still be viewable by the inner class B. Is this 
> possible? Any suggestions? Thanks

There is no way to do this without changing your code slightly, the reason 
being that class B is a static definition, and refers to the same object 
in every instantiation of A:

>>> a=A()
>>> b=A()
>>> a.B is b.B
True

To get the effect you want, you must somehow get a reference to an A
object to the definition of the B object.  There are two basic ways to do
this:

1) Move the definition of B into A.__init__, so a new class referencing 
the A instance is created each time:

class A:
	def __init__(aself):
		aself.var = "A's variable"

		class B:
			def __init__(bself):
				bself.var2 = "B's variable"
				bself.parent = self
		aself.B = B

2) Allow an instance of A to be passed in the constructor to B:

class A:
	def __init__(self):
		self.var = "A's variable"

	class B:
		def __init__(self,parent):
			self.var2 = "B's variable"
			self.parent = parent

Of the two, I prefer the latter, since it is much faster and the code is 
cleaner.  The only downside is the redundancy of creating B (you have to 
call a.B(a) instead of a.B()).

There is probably a way to get the usage of the former with the efficiency
of the latter by using metaclasses, but I don't know how to do it (mostly
because I don't like metaclasses very much).



From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Sun Aug 15 19:21:03 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 16:21:03 -0700
Subject: Python secure?
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
	<ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>
	<ZKRTc.3710$bJ2.23892@news1.mts.net>
Message-ID: <6o75v1-p92.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

Reid Nichol wrote:
> Roger Binns wrote:
>> Yes.  Anyone who recovers your "code" and/or uses it will be in
>> violation of copyright and several other laws.  That is legal
>> protection no matter what languages or combination of languages
>> you use.
>
> I assume you are talking about reverse engineering.  If so, that just
> depends on that particular countries laws.  Some allow and some don't.

The "uses it" bit is what is important.  Even in the European Union
where reverse engineering is legal, it is only legal for the purpose
of interoperability and where the original vendor provides no suitable
other means of doing the interoperability.

Anyone just taking your code, or even recovered code and then redistributing
it falls fowl of copyright laws (unless of course you GPL it :-)

But no matter what, there is nothing you can do to stop people finding
out the equivalent of your source code.  Having your program written
in a general purpose programming language on a general purpose operating
system for which there are numerous tools makes it easier.  It merely
takes one determined person.

And as a related anecdote, I reverse engineered Microsoft's RDP display
protocol several years ago in Europe using IDA Pro and SoftICE.  Not
only did I figure out how the protocol worked, but I also found several
bugs in their code :-)  The RDP client was written in C and C++ which
are generally considered the hardest languages to reverse engineer.

Roger 




From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 16 21:45:44 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:45:44 -0400
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
In-Reply-To: <slrnci1gsp.k3.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
	<RGwTc.37687$js3.13758840@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<LIqdndnJz9N_pr3cRVn-og@powergate.ca>
	<slrnci0vhb.k3.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
	<nbudnY5S8Jl2Kb3cRVn-oQ@powergate.ca>
	<slrnci1gsp.k3.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
Message-ID: <dIWdnX6-xdHU_rzcRVn-jA@powergate.ca>

Antoon Pardon wrote:
> I don't like the enforced indentation, even if I 
 > agree 99.99% of the time with the indentation python enforces.

In my humble opinion, disliking something with which
you disagree only one time in ten thousand is not a
good way to find happiness in life.  ;-)


-Peter


From eddie at holyrood.ed.ac.uk  Fri Aug 13 06:51:13 2004
From: eddie at holyrood.ed.ac.uk (Eddie Corns)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 10:51:13 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Help understanding Scheme's syntax, procedures and calls
References: <95f168b0.0408120120.31433dc7@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfi6f1$54m$1@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>

franbarlow at mail.com (Fran) writes:

>I'm trying to understand a functional language code fragment so I can
>explain its syntax and workings to my non English-speaking background
>neighbour, who is doing her finals.

>What in heaven's name is this code fragment intending? (In English
>prose if possible).

>It looks like a fragment from a language called "scheme"

>(define (this n)
>	(if (=n 0)
>	         0
>	          (= n (this (- n 1)))))
>(define (f1 a b)
>	(if >b a)
>	       0
>	       (+ b (f1 a (+ b 1)))))
>(define (that n)
>(f1 n1)

For the record these three functions should have been written.

(define (this n)
	(if (= n 0)
	    0
	    (+ n (this (- n 1)))))
(define (f1 a b)
	(if (> b a)
	    0
	    (+ b (f1 a (+ b 1)))))
(define (that n)
        (f1 n 1))

Which would have been obvious if I'd bothered to read the detailed stuff later
instead of assuming.  Peter's translation is correct.  It's basically testing
reasoning about recursive functions.  You need to know that, unlike Python,
every expression returns a value and every '(...)' is an expression to be
evaluated.  So the 'if' statement returns the result of whichever of the arms
it takes, which in turn becomes the result of the function.

Eddie


From python-url at phaseit.net  Mon Aug 23 16:08:07 2004
From: python-url at phaseit.net (Peter Otten)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:08:07 GMT
Subject: Dr. Dobb's Python-URL! - weekly Python news and links (Aug 23)
Message-ID: <cgdfku$svs$1@lairds.us>

QOTW: "Lucky for me I found python before Java took over my brain." - Huy
"Python fits my brain" - c.l.py proverb

"So as far as I'm concerned, SOAP is not XML, nor is it useful to even a
fraction of the degree to which it is destructive." - Uche Ogbuji


    Over the weekend Andrea Griffini has implemented a toy Basic
    interpreter in Python, inspired by a post of Leif K-Brooks. A few
    other languages are also available.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=2oo13eFcj548U1%40uni-berlin.de
    
    Jeff Epler and Martin von Loewis help Vincent Delft to overcome the lack
    of encoding-awareness in the zip file format.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=4127a6d7%240%244090%24ba620e4c%40news.skynet.be
    
    As of June 2004, Pythonology has a few new success stories.
        http://www.pythonology.com/success
    
    Python people are nice, says Andy Todd.
        http://www.halfcooked.com/mt/archives/000833.html
    
    Something new from the decorator front:
    Paul McGuire initates another decorator poll and a new keyword
    followed by a suite seems to emerge as a viable contender with a small
    chance to beat the pie syntax.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=t07Vc.1179%24v86.188%40fe2.texas.rr.com
    
    Thanks to the work of Michael Sparks building on previous efforts
    by Mark Russell there is already a patch. Anthony Baxter, the
    outspoken proponent of the pie syntax, helps with some useful hints,
    too.
        http://www.python.org/sf/1013835
    
    Robert Brewer volunteers to "sell" the result to GvR.
        http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/pydec.html
    
    Too old/too young is no excuse for not learning Python, according to
    a thread started by Lucas Raab, asking for the
        "Age of Python programmers" 
    with the only word of caution,
        "Not yet, but our day will come"
    being uttered by Robey Holderith.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?th=5f4805189aa2470d
    
    
========================================================================
Everything Python-related you want is probably one or two clicks away in
these pages:

    Python.org's Python Language Website is the traditional
    center of Pythonia
        http://www.python.org
    Notice especially the master FAQ
        http://www.python.org/doc/FAQ.html

    PythonWare complements the digest you're reading with the
    marvelous daily python url
         http://www.pythonware.com/daily  
    Mygale is a news-gathering webcrawler that specializes in (new)
    World-Wide Web articles related to Python.
         http://www.awaretek.com/nowak/mygale.html 
    While cosmetically similar, Mygale and the Daily Python-URL
    are utterly different in their technologies and generally in
    their results.

    comp.lang.python.announce announces new Python software.  Be
    sure to scan this newsgroup weekly.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python.announce

    Brett Cannon continues the marvelous tradition established by 
    Andrew Kuchling and Michael Hudson of intelligently summarizing
    action on the python-dev mailing list once every other week.
	http://www.python.org/dev/summary/

    The Python Package Index catalogues packages.
        http://www.python.org/pypi/

    The somewhat older Vaults of Parnassus ambitiously collects references
    to all sorts of Python resources.
        http://www.vex.net/~x/parnassus/   

    Much of Python's real work takes place on Special-Interest Group
    mailing lists
        http://www.python.org/sigs/

    The Python Business Forum "further[s] the interests of companies
    that base their business on ... Python."
	http://www.python-in-business.org

    Python Success Stories--from air-traffic control to on-line
    match-making--can inspire you or decision-makers to whom you're
    subject with a vision of what the language makes practical.
        http://www.pythonology.com/success

    The Python Software Foundation (PSF) has replaced the Python
    Consortium as an independent nexus of activity.  It has official
    responsibility for Python's development and maintenance. 
        http://www.python.org/psf/
    Among the ways you can support PSF is with a donation.
        http://www.python.org/psf/donate.html

    Cetus collects Python hyperlinks.
        http://www.cetus-links.org/oo_python.html

    Python FAQTS
        http://python.faqts.com/

    The Cookbook is a collaborative effort to capture useful and
    interesting recipes.
	http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python

    Among several Python-oriented RSS/RDF feeds available are
	http://www.python.org/channews.rdf
	http://bootleg-rss.g-blog.net/pythonware_com_daily.pcgi
	http://python.de/backend.php
    For more, see
	http://www.syndic8.com/feedlist.php?ShowMatch=python&ShowStatus=all
    The old Python "To-Do List" now lives principally in a
    SourceForge reincarnation.
        http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?atid=355470&group_id=5470&func=browse
        http://python.sourceforge.net/peps/pep-0042.html
     
    The online Python Journal is posted at pythonjournal.cognizor.com.
    editor at pythonjournal.com and editor at pythonjournal.cognizor.com
    welcome submission of material that helps people's understanding
    of Python use, and offer Web presentation of your work.

    *Py: the Journal of the Python Language*
        http://www.pyzine.com

    Archive probing tricks of the trade:
        http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python&num=100
        http://groups.google.com/groups?meta=site%3Dgroups%26group%3Dcomp.lang.python.*

Previous - (U)se the (R)esource, (L)uke! - messages are listed here:
  http://www.ddj.com/topics/pythonurl/         
  http://purl.org/thecliff/python/url.html (dormant)
or
  http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_q=+Python-URL!&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python


Suggestions/corrections for next week's posting are always welcome.
E-mail to <Python-URL at phaseit.net> should get through.

To receive a new issue of this posting in e-mail each Monday morning
(approximately), ask <claird at phaseit.net> to subscribe.  Mention
"Python-URL!".


-- The Python-URL! Team--

Dr. Dobb's Journal (http://www.ddj.com) is pleased to participate in and
sponsor the "Python-URL!" project.




From mwh at python.net  Fri Aug  6 07:28:05 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:28:05 GMT
Subject: Object Reference?
References: <HQEQc.6327$rM6.4368@trndny03>
Message-ID: <m3r7qksdyz.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

"Chris S." <chrisks at NOSPAMudel.edu> writes:

> I'm trying to make a graphical editor and browser for Pickled
> files. One aspect I'm not sure about is how to detect multiple
> references to the same data.
> 
> For instance, say I had the Pickled data:
> a=[1,2,3]
> b=[a,4,5]
> c=[b,6,7]
> d=[a,b,c]
> 
> The idea is to allow the user to browse this data and indicate
> references. In this case, if 'a' was selected, the browser should show
> that 'b', 'c', and 'd' contain a reference to 'a'. Inversely, if 'c'
> were selected, it should indicate that it's first element just isn't a
> list, but a reference to a list defined elsewhere, namely 'b'.

I would recommend getting initmately familiar with the format of
pickles (something I can't claim to be).  The information must be in
there somewhere.

Actually, maybe you could write a custom unpickler that keeps track of
this kind of information.  Something else I haven't tried :-) But,
seriously, I think the knowledge that these objects came out of a
particular pickle is going to be a powerful advantage for this sort of
thing, and you should use it for everything it's worth.

> Naturally, I could just recursively parse all the data comparing every
> element to every previously listed object, but is there a less
> obtrusive method? Python figures out when to delete objects based on
> the remaining references to an object. Is there a way to access this
> information to automatically lookup these references? Any help is
> greatly appreciated.

Well, there's gc.get_referrers() and gc.get_referrents(), but I think
they are probably overkill (see above).

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  (ps: don't feed the lawyers: they just lose their fear of humans)
                                         -- Peter Wood, comp.lang.lisp


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug 13 11:42:55 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:42:55 -0400
Subject: Flython?
In-Reply-To: <2o4555F6dms6U1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121608180.11006-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
	<CISdnRTssu4zrYHcRVn-ow@powergate.ca>
	<2o3ovjF6apnoU1@uni-berlin.de> <2o4555F6dms6U1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <poydnewN4dIdfIHcRVn-iA@powergate.ca>

Cousin Stanley wrote:

> Dan .... 
> 
>   There is a freeware alternative called Powerbullet
>   for  creating/editing  Flash  .swf  files 
>   that runs under Windows ....
> 
>       http://www.powerbullet.com/
> 
>   I've only done limited testing with it under Win98,
>   but it seems to work OK ....

But does it have anything to do with scripting
via ActionScript?  As far as I can see it is
purely a GUI tool for doing simple animations, and
does not allow any scripting.

-Peter


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Tue Aug 31 00:01:28 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:01:28 +1000
Subject: python port
Message-ID: <1093924888.4133f818b2bf0@www-mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

if i am porting an existing python package to a different environment and
the package uses some C code, would the port only involve recompiling it
under the new envionment. for pocket pc's would recompiling using embedded
Visual c++ with the pocket pc sdk be enough?
or is there more to it?


thanks
cheers





----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From nospam at nowhere.hu  Sun Aug  8 06:12:07 2004
From: nospam at nowhere.hu (Miklós)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 12:12:07 +0200
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu> <cf3b56$gt6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>
	<du7smayidxy.fsf@mozart.cc.tut.fi>
	<Xns953F7763A998cpl19ghumspamgourmet@195.20.224.116>
Message-ID: <cf4ub3$msb$1@namru.matavnet.hu>

"Harald Massa" <cpl.19.ghum at spamgourmet.com> wrote in message
news:Xns953F7763A998cpl19ghumspamgourmet at 195.20.224.116...
> Ville,
> I do not understand at all what's that decorators thingy, but I know that
> girls often put some deco into flats and it really looks cosy after, so I
> assume that decorators are not on the dark side of the source.
>
The rest of the novelties in v2.4 are more or less fine with me, too.
But IMHO decorators are exactly Dark Code Wader stuff. Basically it's about
self-modifying code.

> Maybe we should ask for a ternary decorator,
Great stuff for my original sarcastic post. :)

Cheers,
  Mikl?s

> Harald




From alanmk at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 19 10:52:29 2004
From: alanmk at hotmail.com (Alan Kennedy)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:52:29 +0100
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <903b3fba.0408190355.38d07555@posting.google.com>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<903b3fba.0408190355.38d07555@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <e53Vc.25283$Z14.7612@news.indigo.ie>

[vronskij at post.sk]
> Teenage programmers fading away. I think that you are at the height of
> your skills in 30's.

I'm 37. Does that mean I'm (in my) prime?

can't-resist-cheesy-puns-ly y'rs,

-- 
alan kennedy
------------------------------------------------------
email alan:              http://xhaus.com/contact/alan


From andy at andybak.net  Tue Aug  3 10:42:11 2004
From: andy at andybak.net (Andy Baker)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 15:42:11 +0100
Subject: Reasoning behind nested scope
In-Reply-To: <f03f4fdf04080307245f4c09a9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040803144212.537141E4002@bag.python.org>

I don't particularly. I just wanted to get a feel for the syntax and if it
was possible.

Although I can see some utility for grouping functions in a namespace.
Modules do that quite nicely but sometimes I want everything in one .py
file.

I found nested functions interesting as they seemed to enforce encapsulation
more strongly than Python does in areas where you would traditionally expect
strong encapsulation (i.e. private properties in objects).

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Cioffi [mailto:evenprimes at gmail.com] 
> Sent: 03 August 2004 15:24
> To: andy at andybak.net
> Cc: python-list at python.org; andybak at gmail.com
> Subject: Re: Reasoning behind nested scope
> 
> Why would you want to do this?  The whole point of a nested 
> function, I thought, was to encapsulate some code in the 
> surrounding function, usually to make the surrounding 
> function clearer.  If the nested function is of wider utility 
> it should just be a module level function.  (Possibly of the 
> quasi private variety Python offers.)
> 
> Chris
> 
> On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:26:15 +0100, Andy Baker 
> <andy at andybak.net> wrote:
> [snip]
> > (On a side note is there any way to call a nested function from 
> > outside the parent? I was kind of expecting nested functions to be 
> > addressable through dot notation like methods are but I can see why 
> > that wouldn't be quite right. This might be a better 
> question for the 
> > tutor list...)
> > 
> > Andy Baker
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Still searching for an even prime > 2!
> 



From yong at net.tamu.edu  Thu Aug 26 16:38:39 2004
From: yong at net.tamu.edu (Yong Wang)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:38:39 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Python MySQL API and date data type
Message-ID: <20040826203840.411F81589B@net.tamu.edu>

> Hi:
>    We have a database system. In the database, we have an 
> attribute called date0, which contains date data (format:
> i. e. 2004-08-12). I wrote a script to fetch the data
> in a specified time period:
> for exaplme:
> date1 = raw_input('start date ')
> date2 = raw_input('end date ')
> 
> ie.  date1 = '2004-08-12'
>      date2 = '2004-08-20'
> run  = ('SELECT * FROM account WHERE (date0 >= date1) and (date0 <= date2)')
> data = dbh[runn]
> .....
>    When I run the database query, it complains query syntax after where clause.
Please see the below:

> Please input your start date of your report: 2004-08-12
> Please enter your ending date of your report: 2004-08-17
> date1 is  2004-08-12
> date2 is  2004-08-17
> Traceback (innermost last):
>   File "report", line 25, in ?
>     data = dbh[run]
> MySQL.error: Unknown column 'date1' in 'where clause'
> 
>        How should I fix the query statement. I check the MySQL manual. The
> syntax is correct.
>        Thanks a lot.
> 
>        Yong
> 
> 
> 
> --7C97B1589B.1093552427/net.tamu.edu--
> 



From karlehr at gmail.com  Wed Aug  4 14:23:14 2004
From: karlehr at gmail.com (Karl Ehr)
Date: 4 Aug 2004 11:23:14 -0700
Subject: intermittent smtp module problems (with sendmail) in python 2.2.1
Message-ID: <bd764350.0408041023.35ee518b@posting.google.com>

I have written the following simple program to monitor a single URL,
and notify me via email whenever this URL changes.    Intermittently,
I raise the following exception:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "./urlwatch.py", line 34, in ?
    server.sendmail(sourceAddress, emailAddress, message)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.2/smtplib.py", line 621, in sendmail
    if not (200 <= self.ehlo()[0] <= 299):
  File "/usr/lib/python2.2/smtplib.py", line 377, in ehlo
    (code,msg)=self.getreply()
  File "/usr/lib/python2.2/smtplib.py", line 328, in getreply
    raise SMTPServerDisconnected("Connection unexpectedly closed")
smtplib.SMTPServerDisconnected: Connection unexpectedly closed


This is a copy of my code:

----------------------------------------
#!/usr/bin/env python

import os, sys, string, urllib, time, smtplib, shutil, filecmp

## functions & classes
## vars

sleeptime = 900  # seconds to sleep between polls
urltoget = 'http://some.domain.com/foo'
server = smtplib.SMTP('localhost') # server to relay smtp through for
alarms
emailAddress = 'user at somedomain.com' #  address to send alerts to
sourceAddress = 'fromuser at somedomain.com' # required!   must have
foo at domain.com form
message = 'Your monitored URL has changed!'

## Main:

# establish baseline (old version)
urlfile = urllib.urlretrieve(urltoget, 'oldurlfile')
print "Sleeping", sleeptime, " seconds."
time.sleep(sleeptime)

while 1:
  try:
    urlfile = urllib.urlretrieve(urltoget, 'newurlfile')
  except:
    print "Could not retrieve url from internet"
    sys.exit(-1)
 
  if filecmp.cmp('oldurlfile','newurlfile',shallow=0):
    print "the url is still the same"  
  else:
    print "the url has changed!!!"
    server.set_debuglevel(1)
    server.sendmail(sourceAddress, emailAddress, message)
    server.quit()
    time.sleep(10)

  shutil.copyfile('newurlfile','oldurlfile')

  # sleep until next iteration
  print "Sleeping", sleeptime, " seconds."
  time.sleep(sleeptime)
  
#EOF 

------------------------------------

tia, 

Karl


From abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au  Wed Aug  4 03:03:10 2004
From: abra9823 at mail.usyd.edu.au (Ajay Brar)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 17:03:10 +1000
Subject: converting to string
Message-ID: <41108A2E.7030507@mail.usyd.edu.au>

hi!

how do i go about converting a Python object or tuple to a string.
i am currently doing
import cPickle as pickle
str = pickle.dumps(obj)

is that efficient? is that the best way to do it?

thanks

cheers

-- 
Ajay Brar
CS Honours 2004
Smart Internet Technology Research Group

http://www.it.usyd.edu.au/~abrar1



From donn at u.washington.edu  Tue Aug 24 12:22:18 2004
From: donn at u.washington.edu (Donn Cave)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:22:18 -0700
Subject: How does a "script" differ from a "program" or "subroutine"?
References: <cge1h0$8qd@odbk17.prod.google.com> <2p0v42FfaqerU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<lvnmi0tq1phergljf3211g4dtgue93qhqh@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <donn-6398F8.09221824082004@gnus01.u.washington.edu>

In article <lvnmi0tq1phergljf3211g4dtgue93qhqh at 4ax.com>,
 Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> On 24 Aug 2004 13:45:38 GMT, Oliver Fromme <olli at haluter.fromme.com>
> declaimed the following in comp.lang.python:
> 
> > 
> > Python is more a programming language than a scripting
> > language (more than Perl, at least), although you can very
> > well use it for tasks which would typically be written in a
> > scripting language.
> >
> 	I'd put REXX at the split point between a strictly OS scripting
> language (JCL, DCL, shell scripts) and interpreted programming language
> (Python, BASIC, PERL, etc.). Primarily for REXX's easy means of using OS
> commands -- any statement not recognized as a REXX statement is
> automatically passed to the current defined command host (normally a
> command shell, but could be a REXX compatible editor, or other
> application). None of this hassle of explicitly calling os.system() (for
> example). For ambiguous statements (those that could be REXX or command
> host), putting quotes around those meant for the host was sufficient.

And you might have added, it can be applied to other environments
besides the OS, as an application scripting language.  In either
case it takes functionality of a type that is commonly wielded by
hand, and exposes it in a programming language.  Hence, a script,
obviously derived from common English usage of the word.

   Donn Cave, donn at u.washington.edu


From tim.peters at gmail.com  Sat Aug  7 00:51:47 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 00:51:47 -0400
Subject: How to initialize instances of subclass of 'str'?
In-Reply-To: <060820042320172090%kenneth.m.mcdonald@sbcglobal.net>
References: <060820042320172090%kenneth.m.mcdonald@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <1f7befae040806215172689ad3@mail.gmail.com>

[Kenneth McDonald]
> I'm attempting to create a subclass of 'str' that I can abitrarily
> initialize at creation time. As an illustration, this gives the
> flavor of what I'm trying to do:
>
> class AlwaysLower(str):
>   def __init__(self, s):
>      str.__init__(self, s.lower())
>
> The idea is that an AlwaysLower instance should be a string
> which is always lowercase; AlwaysLower('A') -> 'a',
> AlwaysLower('b') -> 'b', etc. (Of course, the resultant
> instances are not _just_ strings, but since they are
> subclasses of str, they can be treated and viewed as strings,
> as I implicitly do above.)
>
> Unfortunately, the above code doesn't work; the resultant
> instance's string value is always s, i.e. the call to
> str.__init__ has no effect.

That's correct.  Objects of type str are immutable, so by the time
self exists (as it must for __init__), it's too late to change its
value.  You want this:

class AlwaysLower(str):
    def __new__(cls, value):
        return str.__new__(cls, value.lower())

Note that __new__ doesn't take a "self" argument -- in effect, it's
responsible for *creating* "self".  Instead it's passed the desired
result class.  __new__ *can* return an object of any type, but it's
most useful most often if it honors the request to return an object of
the passed-in class.

Give the above,

>>> a = AlwaysLower('AbC')
>>> type(a)
<class '__main__.AlwaysLower'>
>>> a
'abc'
>>> 

> ...
> Anyone know of good examples of how to subclass builtins?

Lib/test/test_descr.py has many examples.  I don't get into value
judgments about "good" <wink>.


From ajsiegel at optonline.net  Fri Aug 13 07:17:04 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.net (Arthur)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 07:17:04 -0400
Subject: PEP318
In-Reply-To: <e69d3ed2040812234329b48756@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0I2D001ZDU03UQ@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

 
> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:03:19 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
> > >def foo ():
> > >   whatever
> > >foo = decorator (foo)
> > >
> > >is that you have to type the word "foo" three times.
> >
> > Big f**king deal - all things considered. ;)
> 
> When this name is a PyObjC name that might be 70 characters long,
> it becomes a big deal.

I had asked this before:

Does

def __f(something):
    dosomething

the_name_I_really_want_to_call=transform(__f)

work?

It is not a destructive transform of __f, but why is that important?

What else am I missing?

I thought I read the PyObjC folks saying that they saw use cases for a
decorator syntax for their project - to be sure - but that was
(mis)interpreted as meaning that they saw it as important for their project,
which they don't.  

I could be wrong in my interpretation here.

And I know there *are* folks who do consider the decorator facility as
essential for their projects, but unfortunately it was never clear to me on
what basis they were concluding that. 

Other developers involved in very important Python projects have noted that
they have wish lists as well - just less will to lobby at python-dev.

Design by democracy sucks.

Design by squeaky wheel ain't great either.

Art    



From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Fri Aug 20 15:46:54 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:46:54 +0200
Subject: How to clean python interpreter's environment?
In-Reply-To: <kt2dneLcXdVTz7vcRVn-uw@powergate.ca>
References: <PPqVc.176$C7.35@amsnews05.chello.com>
	<jL6dnT9_ZqaFo7vcRVn-oQ@powergate.ca>
	<2omtogFck37uU1@uni-berlin.de>
	<kt2dneLcXdVTz7vcRVn-uw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <2on2lsFcqa7nU1@uni-berlin.de>

Peter Hansen wrote:
> Reinhold Birkenfeld wrote:
> 
>>>Rafal Kleger-Rudomin wrote:
>>>
>>>>I'm looking for a command to reset interpreter's environment i.e. unload 
>>>>all modules, delete variables etc.
>> 
>> What about something like this:
>> 
>> def clear(keep=("__builtins__", "clear")):
>>     keeps = {}
>>     for name, value in globals().iteritems():
>>         if name in keep: keeps[name] = value
>>     globals().clear()
>>     for name, value in keeps.iteritems():
>>         globals()[name] = value
> 
> Well, that only removes all the references from the
> globals of the current module.  Is that all that's
> wanted?
> 
> Note that threads that are already running will not be
> removed, nothing in sys.modules will be removed, and
> there are doubtless a few other things in the interpreter
> that aren't quite so easy to get at.

Right. So I agree with you on ^D.

Reinhold

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From jgrahn-nntq at algonet.se  Sun Aug  8 13:27:53 2004
From: jgrahn-nntq at algonet.se (Jorgen Grahn)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 17:27:53 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Does python support multi prototype.
References: <2natmnFv86rjU1@uni-berlin.de> <HGXPc.1098$M95.865@pd7tw1no>
	<slrnch1o4j.nv3.jgrahn-nntq@frailea.sa.invalid>
	<TZydnS8D3rdVbY3cRVn-gA@powergate.ca>
	<slrnch2fbj.nv3.jgrahn-nntq@frailea.sa.invalid>
	<38ednYH1NLwwOYzcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <slrnchcoi0.nv3.jgrahn-nntq@frailea.sa.invalid>

On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 23:08:28 -0400, Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> Jorgen Grahn wrote:
> 
>> Your code was kind of elegant, but kind of misses the point with
>> overloading, I think.  At least, it's not anything I'd want to do in most
>> situations where overloading would have been nifty in C++.  IMHO.
> 
> Okay, fair enough.  Would you be able to describe any situation
> in which you have found overloading to be useful in C++.  (Note,
> not merely nifty, but useful?)  

Well, it's needed for output streams to work -- the << operators which push
objects onto streams cannot be member functions - and they better have the
same "names".

I also suspect it's vital to generic programming using templates and such ...

Also when you want common functions that operate on objects without being
members -- the thing Python solves by translating len(x) to x.__len__() etc.

> In my experience, most of the
> cases where I used it in C++ were actually cases of poor design
> and should have been done differently, in hindsight.

If we are talking member functions, you may have something there ...
On the other hand, I don't see embedding a type name in the method name as a
better alternative, ever.

I wrote a small Python helper class yesterday, for reasons too complicated
to explain here.  I called it "Cluster", and it was really just a set of
(x,y) points which I expected to be roughly clustered around some point.
I needed to find the distance between (the center of) a Cluster and a point,
but also between two Clusters.

Had that been C++, I would have been tempted to add two methods:
  double Cluster::distance(const Cluster&) const;
  double Cluster::distance(const Point&) const;
but for some reason (asymmetry?) that feels like the easy and slightly wrong
way out.

Anyway, this was Python so I didn't have to think much about that ;-)

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <jgrahn@      ''If All Men Were Brothers,
\X/                algonet.se>    Would You Let One Marry Your Sister?''


From cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca  Sun Aug 22 21:13:11 2004
From: cookedm+news at physics.mcmaster.ca (David M. Cooke)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:13:11 -0400
Subject: 2 GB files
References: <9418be08.0408221427.182a4d30@posting.google.com>
	<prSdnX0h1KUgubTcRVn-gg@lmi.net>
Message-ID: <qnku0uusllk.fsf@arbutus.physics.mcmaster.ca>

At some point, "David Pokorny" <davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu> wrote:

> "Elbert Lev" <elbertlev at hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9418be08.0408221427.182a4d30 at posting.google.com...
>> From postings to this group and other resources I understood that the
>> only way to make Python programs to work correctly with files lager
>> then 2 GB is building Python interpreter with some "magic spell"
>> defines. For me this is ABSOLUTELY unacceptable (Not the building, but
>
> Elbert: you might get a positive response if you rephrased your post.
>
> "Our corporation needs functionality ___. We would be happy to pay a
> contract consultant $n000 to come up with a solution that will work with a
> future trajectory of Python releases."
>
> Or you could pray to the OSS gods.

Or do better research, as it already has it.

My python (from Debian) has large file support, for instance. Python's
configure script will use if it can find it.

The OP doesn't mention what he's using that doesn't have large files
(OS, platform, python version...)

-- 
|>|\/|<
/--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
|David M. Cooke
|cookedm(at)physics(dot)mcmaster(dot)ca


From martin at v.loewis.de  Tue Aug 31 01:48:57 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 07:48:57 +0200
Subject: Non-unicode strings & Python.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2643.1093921706.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2643.1093921706.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <41341145$0$12484$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

Jonathon Blake wrote:
> What happens when strings are read in from text files that were
> created using  GB 2312-1980, or KPS 9566-2003, or other, equally
> obscure code ranges?

Python has two kinds of strings: byte strings, and Unicode strings.
If you read data from a file, you get byte strings - i.e. a sequence
of bytes representing literally the encoded contents of the file.
If you want Unicode strings, you need to use codecs.open.

> The idea is to read text in the file format, and replace it with the
> appropriate Unicode character,then write it out as a new text file. 
> [Trivial to program, but incredibly time consuming to actually code]

Not at all:

data = codecs.open(filename, "r", encoding="gb2312")
codecs.open(newfile, "w", encoding="utf-8").write(data)

assuming that by "appropriate Unicode character" you actually mean
"I want to write the file encoded as UTF-8".

Regards,
Martin


From nomail at nospam.no  Sun Aug  8 04:06:24 2004
From: nomail at nospam.no (Dominic)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 10:06:24 +0200
Subject: Going the PL/1 way
In-Reply-To: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu>
References: <cf38ph$2f8$1@namru.matavnet.hu>
Message-ID: <cf4ms8$30v$1@news.uni-kl.de>


> Yes, I'm thorougly annoyed with creeping featurism.
Well, you need not use them in your own code.
Define and enforce a subset like it is common in ADA.

However I am not sure myself were decorators will
takes us, they'll certainly(?) have a major influence.
Maybe it is a bit like generator-introduction.
They seemed strange at first  and now I think
they are natural and help to simplify coding patterns.

Some postings about @decorators remind me of that
old farmer who only eats stuff he knows already.


Ciao,
  Dominic


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug  6 12:42:27 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 12:42:27 -0400
Subject: Queue qsize = unreliable?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1284.1091808092.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1284.1091808092.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <3MGdnbuOmodqKY7cRVn-sQ@powergate.ca>

James R. Saker Jr. wrote:
> Perhaps there's an easier way to accomplish what I'm attempting. 
[snip description]

James, I can't see anything in your description that requires you to
call qsize() at all, let alone get a "reliable" result.

Is the key hidden somewhere in your last paragraph here? :
> I've done an initial version of this using Postgresql for an
> intermediary (and twisted's database interface to deal with blocking
> issues), but having to load Postgresql on a syslog2beep receptor is
> overkill. A ZODB Queue implemented in a threaded app would seem the
> right way to go. Any thoughts?

The third point seems to just say that you need a Queue and you
need to have that thread sit in a blocking get().  What am I
missing?

 > 3. have a thread sit and look for data in the queue. when data is
 > found, parse it and fire it off using BEEP to an upstream collector.

Note that any time you have a potential consumer that you think
should call qsize() before doing something, you can just have that
consumer do a non-blocking get() instead, so long as it's prepared
to handle the result.  Alternatively, trust that qsize() is
reliable to the extent that if it says the Queue has X elements,
then it has at least X elements if you are the only consumer...

-Peter


From http  Sun Aug 22 14:28:57 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 22 Aug 2004 11:28:57 -0700
Subject: J2 proposal: keyword
References: <mailman.2154.1093185852.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <7xwtzryql2.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

"Robert Brewer" <fumanchu at amor.org> writes:
> -Candidates for keywords have fallen into two or three camps, and
> emphasize different aspects of decorators: 
> 
> -Declarative: declare, predef, moddef 
> -Transformative: transform, wrap, modify, mutate 
> -Attributive/Annotative: amend, using, having 
> -Directive: pragma, signify 
> -Associative: helper, qualify, qual, meta 
> -Cross-cutting: imbue, endow, bestow, embellish, extend, accum, glom,
> confer
> -Prepositions/Adverbs: using, through, per, via, by

Not sure where these would go: prologue, preamble, preface 

How about something like "def_using"?


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Thu Aug 19 22:43:58 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 02:43:58 GMT
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
References: <mailman.1991.1092960665.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<roy-4FE900.21540719082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <02nai0p5fepmft4gt5dchjjknsmvpsoqeq@4ax.com>

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:54:07 -0400, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:

>In article <mailman.1991.1092960665.5135.python-list at python.org>,
> "Delaney, Timothy C (Timothy)" <tdelaney at avaya.com> wrote:
>
>> Neil Zanella wrote:
>> 
>> > Well, allow me to contribute my thoughts on staticmethod and
>> > classmethod: 
>> > I am barely starting out with Python and my class objects are already
>> > loaded with so many
>> > 
>> > foo = staticmethod(foo)
>> 
>> These two facts could be somewhat related ... ;)
>> 
>> Tim Delaney
>
>I never quite understood the point of static methods inside classes.  
>When would you ever need to do that, as opposed to just a function in a 
>module?  In Java's "everything is part of a class" philosophy, it makes 
>sense, but in Python?

yeah.

Its confusing to me that with consistent reference to the ugliness of:

foo=staticmethod(foo)

I've never heard the explanation of when its true need arises.

But I am afraid in these kinds of discussions it's easy to lose track
of the underlying assumptions on which the discussion rests.

And the basis for the discussions folks choose to have.

what are debating points, what are abstract considerations, what are
aesthetic issues, and what goes to the heart of solving practical
porgramming issues.

It is hard to deny that in a language where the need for static
methods are built-in to the structure of the language, one would want
something more elegant than 

foo=staticmethod(foo)

The fact that this is simply not the case with Python seems to have
been made a minor point, rather than to the heart of the matter.

Hard to understand why.

I am not suspecting that folks who find the need for staticmethod are
making it up out of thin air, or misunderstanding the best solution to
their problem..

But I do suspect that options have been taken away from them by
external factors - as I suspect in the case of PyObjC 70 letter
function names. In other words, its seems that they are boxed in,
somehow. 

And perhaps the effort to accommodate a need that arises in defiance
of the natural flow of the language's structure and elegance, will
necessarily be subversive of its structure and elegance.
  
Or so it seems to me, in this case.


Art



From amdescombes at qualicontrol.com  Tue Aug 17 09:44:50 2004
From: amdescombes at qualicontrol.com (AMD)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:44:50 +0200
Subject: Is it possible to write a DLL using python
Message-ID: <cft24m$njb$1@news-reader2.wanadoo.fr>

Hi,

I need to write a Win32 DLL and I would like to use Python instead of 
VB, C++ or Delphi. Is this possible?

Thank you,

Andre M. Descombes


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 15 13:43:30 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:43:30 -0400
Subject: Decorators: an outsider's perspective
In-Reply-To: <frydnbvSiJeXF4LcRVn-oA@giganews.com>
References: <20040814153534.8AC171E4007@bag.python.org>	<D65D4928-EEBF-11D8-9F63-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>	<mailman.1687.1092584144.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<frydnbvSiJeXF4LcRVn-oA@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <cfo7cg$k7p$1@sea.gmane.org>

Istvan Albert wrote:

> Paul Morrow wrote:
> 
> 
>> That reminds me of how I once thought about using indentation as a 
>> means of denoting code blocks.  How idiotic I thought that was.  Now I 
>> realize the elegance, beauty, 'genius' in that.
> 
> 
> I disagree. In C (Perl, Java etc) we would do three things,
> write braces, indent and put the semi-colon. In python we replaced
> these three, with a single (the most obvious) one the indentation.
> 

And that's the genius there.  Guido (I believe he's the one that came up 
with it) realized that those other symbols were unnecessary.  The 
identation was enough to convey the author's intention.  Now of course 
this wouldn't have been a very good idea if we (developers as a whole) 
used wildly different indentation styles.  But we didn't/don't.  There's 
a conventional way of showing program structure thru indentation that 
the majority of us have always used (subordinate code gets indented).

As Python developers, we have a convention on how we name the first 
formal parameter of instance methods too.  If you write a method that 
follows that convention (uses 'self' as the name of its first parm), 
then you don't need to do anything further to inform your readers that 
it's an instance method.


>> Why don't we all just acknowledge that we are doing this?  Why don't 
>> we all just admit that a well written instance method uses 'self' as 
>> its first argument.  And well written static or class methods (as well as 
> 
> 
> If so then, the logically equivalent solution would be to pass self
> as an implicit parameter, say a named parameter self with a default
> reference to itself. I'm not suggesting this behavior, I only point out
> what I think follows from the first example. The end goal is to
> simplify the behavior not overload it and thus add
> further meaning to it.
> 

No, if self was passed implicitly, then you'ld be back in the situation 
of having to specify (with additional syntax) which methods are instance 
methods.  Less is more.  Python proves that.

> I do agree with Chas Emerick in that encoding special behavior in
> variable names is a fragile solution.
> 

Define fragile.  If you mean, easy to break, I don't see it.  There 
would be only one way to define an instance method: name its first 
parameter 'self'.  There would be only one way to define a class method: 
name its first parameter 'klass' or 'cls' (or some other synoynm that we 
can all vote on).  All other methods would be static methods.

How is that fragile?





From google at daishi.fastmail.fm  Fri Aug  6 02:33:44 2004
From: google at daishi.fastmail.fm (daishi)
Date: 5 Aug 2004 23:33:44 -0700
Subject: @decorators
Message-ID: <d22692a3.0408052233.3459c3fa@posting.google.com>

For what it's worth:

As far as I know, the proposed @decorator syntax will be the first
time that two logical lines of python with the same indentation will
not be independent of one another. Previously, when looking at:

	some_python(code)
	and_some_more = stuff

there was no need to look at the the first line in order to know what
the second line meant/did (and vice versa). It would seem that the
cases when there are effects across multiple logical lines is captured
in compound statements:

"""
Compound statements contain (groups of) other statements; they affect
or control the execution of those other statements in some way.
""" -Python Reference Manual

My understanding of decorators is that they fit this definition.
One thing that I am not entirely clear about is whether decorators
are intended to be a compound statement themselves, or whether they
are meant to simply be extensions of current compound statements
such as function definition (and class definitions?)

In either case, however, it seems that the following should apply:

"""
Each clause header begins with a uniquely identifying keyword and ends
with a colon. A suite ... can be one or more indented statements on
subsequent lines.
""" -Python Reference Manual

In the first case where decorators form their own compound statement,
this would seem to imply the basic layout of:

@decorator:
    def foo():
        pass

(Whether that uniquely identifying keyword for decorators happens to
be spelled '@' is not important to me.)

In the second case where decorators are simply extensions of current
compound statements, the current wording of the Python Reference
Manual would seem to imply that for function definition the clause
header must begin with 'def'. I.e., the decorator should not come
before the def, and certainly not on a separate line. Beyond this,
however, for me it is not particularly important whether the
decorator comes before/after the function name/argument list, and
how it is delimited.

I guess the basic point that I am trying to make is that what I find
important is consistency with the basic visual layout of code promised
(IMHO) by python. I believe that this promise is violated by the
currently proposed decorator scheme.

d

PS: Although I believe the current view of the implementors is to view
decorators as an extension to function definition, I believe that the
separate compound statement view is fairly rich. As others have noted,
it can make identical decorations simpler:

@static,synchronized:
    def foo():
        pass
    def bar():
        pass


From rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm  Fri Aug 27 07:29:58 2004
From: rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm (Roel Schroeven)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:29:58 GMT
Subject: How to generically transform a list?
In-Reply-To: <1gj6gwy.1bqwzd6zhg7k3N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
References: <opsdcguchn35jo5o@news.gmane.org>
	<mailman.2505.1093589841.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<eTBXc.226897$095.11575327@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<M6DXc.226964$MK4.11316561@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<1gj6gwy.1bqwzd6zhg7k3N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WWEXc.227067$ER4.11567153@phobos.telenet-ops.be>

Alex Martelli wrote:

> Roel Schroeven <rschroev_nospam_ml at fastmail.fm> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Roel Schroeven wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Just out of pure curiosity: Is there a langue that allows vertical and
>>>>horizontal slicing and dicing with the same built-in pattern?
>>>
>>>
>>>You can do it (sorta) in Python: use zip to turn the columns into rows
>>>and vice-versa, apply the slicing, than zip back:
>>>
>>> >>> l = [['a', 1, 11, 'aa'], ['b', 2, 22, 'bb'], ['c', 3, 33, 'cc']]
>>> >>> zip(*(zip(*l)[2:0:-1]))
>>>[(11, 1), (22, 2), (33, 3)]
>>
>>You end up with a list of tuples instead of a list of lists though.
> 
> 
> ...so you map(list, zip(*(zip(*l)[2:0:-1]))) if you're really keen on
> this approach.  Personally, I find it a disaster.

I'm not too keen on it myself, just pointing how it could be done.

-- 
"Codito ergo sum"
Roel Schroeven


From ayose.cazorla at hispalinux.es  Thu Aug 19 20:49:59 2004
From: ayose.cazorla at hispalinux.es (Ayose)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 01:49:59 +0100
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20040820004959.GA7263@setepo.gotdns.org>

[Paul McGuire]
>
> [...]
> The significant alternatives have been listed on the Python wiki at
> http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators .
> 

My vote is:  C2 C2 C1

-- 
Ayose Cazorla Le?n
Debian GNU/Linux - setepo


From timrueAT at mindspringDOT.com  Sat Aug 21 13:16:57 2004
From: timrueAT at mindspringDOT.com (threeseas)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 17:16:57 GMT
Subject: Mind.py
In-Reply-To: <4122796E.9652CCAE@alcyone.com>
References: <41220b22@news.victoria.tc.ca> <4122796E.9652CCAE@alcyone.com>
Message-ID: <dsLVc.8799$3O3.665@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>

Erik Max Francis wrote:
> "Arthur T. Murray" wrote:
> 
> 
>>Now, suppose that you wanted to write an AI in Python that would
>>implement your mind-model and allow it to grow, mutate, develop.
>>Here is one possible scenario.
> 
> 
> http://www.nothingisreal.com/mentifex
> 

its a good thing we all use our minds alike, huh?

Oh wait, so why doesn't Arthur slander or libel himself?

In other words: regardless of whatever I may think of Arthur, he may 
actually be applying effort to understand his own unique use of the mind 
and then to code a mirror of it.

But this doesn't mean his effort is invalid (even considering the 
difficultly cause by being inherently subjective), but only that it is 
different than the way you use your mind. Do you fit the norm?

There are plenty of examples in human history where such non-standard 
direction and use of the mind brought the whole race improvment in 
living standards and enjoyment of life.

L. Da Vinci..... how did he use his mind to do all that he did?

Passon is another quality.

Perhaps the question to ask is: Does the code run?

I think that is about all that is required as qualifying to post in a 
usenet comp.lang newsgroup.

As to negative responses to his posting to usenet.... it only shows that 
there are more who prefer to act like some animal, a dog perhaps, trying 
to bury their favorite bone.

The point is:

its only a matter of time before people on teh internet become 
experienced enough with what to expect that such psuedo FAQs and the 
likes are realized for what they are. Attempts to control the thought 
process of others whom they probably don't know.

Maybe like how the roman numeral accountants promoted "how can nothing 
have value? what such a foolish contridiction" in reference to the zero 
place holder. And done so in order to protect their position/status in 
society and the rewards of it, if not just their own self programming of 
their minds.

Imagine, if you are capable of it, that the human mind is programmable.
What program do you have running?

I can't say I understand what Arthur is on about and I don't believe its 
possible to create anything more than the illusion of intelligence in 
machine, but he has never done anything to put me on a negative side 
against him.

And if I don't want to read his posting, well then nobody is forcing me 
to. I know how to exercise "choice"! All those who feel that they must 
suppress others via the generation of attacks upon them...... well they 
appear less capable of using their minds. What sort of AI reflection of 
their own minds would they create?

Or is there no "I"ntelligence in their obvious "A"rtificialness.

This is a python language newsgroup, but clearly there are those who 
want it to be more constrained than that. There are those who want it to 
become either what they want it to be or a negative septic tank, of 
which either way its a "my way of no way" line of crap.


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Thu Aug 12 16:47:08 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:47:08 -0400
Subject: Flython?
In-Reply-To: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
References: <BeudnTybEKkXXIbcRVn-hQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121608180.11006-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Peter Hansen wrote:

> In the vein of Jython, I wonder what it would take to build
> a Flython?  (Lousy name, I know.)  That would take Python
> source, presumably a subset since some things couldn't be supported,
> and compile it into ActionScript bytecode (aka the bytecode compiled
> from ECMAScript source for the Macromedia Flash player environment).

I don't know much about ActionScript bytecode, but I think a general
Python -> ECMAScript translator wouldn't be too hard (presuming a Python
subset is acceptable).  ECMAScript variables are untyped, so that should
ease translation some.  Sounds like my weekend project!



From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 30 06:59:41 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 12:59:41 +0200
Subject: about presicion
References: <8f17f4bc.0408261434.1a73e874@posting.google.com>
	<2e363c08.0408261912.2358a016@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.2518.1093611862.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<8f17f4bc.0408281303.3cfb4199@posting.google.com>
	<JN6dnW6HuNiU06zcRVn-pA@powergate.ca>
	<20040829041630.28913.00001771@mb-m26.aol.com>
	<8f17f4bc.0408291552.67e3553e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1gjc18t.1hj0z071lwprfjN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Ali <alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com> wrote:

> So the decimal module is in 2.4 but not 2.3? Also I am not geting the
> 2.4 version because it seems that it is still in alpha.

You _SHOULD_ get the 2.4 alpha, and try it out -- that's why alphas get
released, after all!  How's the final release going to be perfect unless
people DO get and try the alphas?!

But you shouldn't yet use 2.4 for production work (stuff you ship to
customers, etc).

The Decimal module is in the standard library in 2.4, but Decimal itself
can support 2.3 just fine -- just download and install it.


Alex


From balaji at email.arizona.edu  Sat Aug 14 14:15:38 2004
From: balaji at email.arizona.edu (Balaji)
Date: 14 Aug 2004 11:15:38 -0700
Subject: Templates Python and Swig
Message-ID: <494182a9.0408141015.365452cc@posting.google.com>

Can any one help me with this.

I have an c++ header file which describes a method given below.

void setRows(const vector<string> &rowNames, const vector<double>
&lhs,const vector<double> &rhs);


How I'm supposed to write this template in a interface file.

So that when I pass (['a','b','c'],[0,0,0],[1,2,3]) in python it
accepts it.

Thanx in advance

Balaji


From gherzig at fmed.uba.ar  Tue Aug 17 16:11:38 2004
From: gherzig at fmed.uba.ar (Gerardo Herzig -Departamento de Proyectos Especiales e Internet- Facultad de Medicina)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 17:11:38 -0300
Subject: Regular expression problem with groups
In-Reply-To: <9b5e8d9.0408160708.37aa9ae3@posting.google.com>
References: <9b5e8d9.0408160708.37aa9ae3@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <200408171711.38712.gherzig@fmed.uba.ar>

El Lun 16 Ago 2004 12:08, Axel Kowald escribi?:

When use .+, the regex engine try to take the longest posible match, so now .+ 
matches the entire `bla` variable. You need some  sort of separator (space 
perhaps) and then you can group:

you can try
re.search('([^ ]*) \\1', bla) 
instead. Watch the [^ ]* meaning "anything but a single space", then the space 
(as a separator) and last a escaped \1.

Works on python 2.2 under Linux.
Gerardo
> Hi everybody,
>
> I have a 'simple' problem with regular expressions. Maybe someone can
> help me.
>
> import re
> bla = 'the the'
> obj = re.search('(.+) \1',bla)
>
> obj.group(1) should now be 'the'. Instead obj is none (python 2.3
> under windows and 2.1 under linux). The problem seems to be the \1
> where I try to reference the first group. However, every tutorial says
> this is the correct way to do it !?
>
> Any ideas what I'm doing wrong ?
>
> Many thanks,
>
>                Axel

-- 
Gerardo Herzig
Departamento de Proyectos Especiales e Internet
Facultad de Medicina
U.B.A.


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sun Aug  1 03:25:27 2004
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 03:25:27 -0400
Subject: Nick Berg Alive
References: <f9ZOc.96265$fv.34850@fe2.columbus.rr.com>
Message-ID: <cei5tf$g00$1@sea.gmane.org>


<jasonhardy at washingtonpost.com> wrote in message
news:f9ZOc.96265$fv.34850 at fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> Conspiracy theories of Nick Berg being alive and well in Iraq have today
been proven true. Aljazeera have released video footage of the supposedly
beheaded American captive. The clip was first "discovered" on an Islamic
website in Malaysia and has now been released by American Journalists
collaborating with Aljazeera.  The evidence speaks for itself and can be
viewed firsthand here.  http://www.greentea.625.co.kr/NickBerg.zip

This is a variation of an reported virus link posted to other newsgroups.





From mwh at python.net  Wed Aug 11 07:04:28 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:04:28 GMT
Subject: Capturing repeating group matches in regular expressions
References: <mailman.1489.1092220861.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m37js6os04.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

James Collier <james.collier at xtra.co.nz> writes:

> Is it possible to capture the results of repeating group matches in
> the python regular expression module?

Not easily; there's a small dicussion on python-dev at the moment
about this.  Erik Heneryd hacked up something that might be useful:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/attachments/20040810/a5e602ab/structmatch.py

And there's always the "use a real parser" option :-)

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  All obscurity will buy you is time enough to contract venereal
  diseases.                                  -- Tim Peters, python-dev


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug 20 10:48:35 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:48:35 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <1IqdnUhRpch8m7vcRVn-vQ@giganews.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<Hu-dndEv47ZxYbjcRVn-pA@giganews.com>
	<cg4uiu$53$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
	<1IqdnUhRpch8m7vcRVn-vQ@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <VumdnbKhyvVXk7vcRVn-qQ@powergate.ca>

Istvan Albert wrote:
> David Fraser wrote:
> 
>> Thats because the point of this vote is to try and gather a consensus 
>> about what the best alternative is,
> 
> But what if the alternative is that you don't need a best
> alternative? There lies the crux of the problem.

No, deciding if an alternative should be chosen is step two
at this point.

>  > not to try and out-vote the original contender.
> 
> If you cannot out-vote the original contender than what
> is the whole point of the poll? Why would this proposal be
> accepted if it cannot outclass the original one?

It will *not* be accepted on the basis of whether or not
it can "outclass" (I assume you mean get more votes than)
the original one.  As has been pointed out repeatedly,
this is not a democracy, and outvoting the @pie syntax
would do nothing.

The point is that we were asked *specifically* for a
community consensus on an alternative, if there should
be an alternative.  This vote is to help form that consensus,
not to decide *if* there should be an alternative.

You might even say that the decision as to whether there
should be an alternative cannot be made until the outcome
of the vote is known.  If no alternative gets overwhelming
support, then we are in the same situation as the old ternary
operator debate.

You were around for that, weren't you?  The community could
not agree on *which alternative to doing nothing* was best,
so in the end nothing happened.

The parallel with the present debate is that if the community
cannot rally around any alternative as being better than
all the other non- at pie alternatives, then "nothing will happen"
and in this case that means @pie wins out and goes in 2.4.

-Peter


From edreamleo at charter.net  Thu Aug  5 14:36:23 2004
From: edreamleo at charter.net (Edward K. Ream)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:36:23 -0500
Subject: Confused about pep 318
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com><mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org><d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com><Pine.LNX.4.44.0408051207440.9737-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu><mailman.1201.1091723463.5135.python-list@python.org><10h4s026oapbhf1@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1223.1091728969.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10h4vhcfbsv6t30@corp.supernews.com>

> Sorry, but if discussions on python-dev are not considered "public", what
is?

The reason that discussions on py-dev were not valid a public discussion of
'@' is that there was no public announcement that pep 318 pertained to '@'.
It's that simple.

It's sorta like holding a public meeting supposedly to discuss sewers and
voting to give all the county commissioners 100% raises instead :-)  The
public wasn't informed of the true nature of the meeting, so the open
meeting law was violated.

To repeat: given that pep 318 is grossly misleading, I contend that no
proper discussion of it has ever taken place.  Sorry, but if you actively
mislead the public, then the public _does_ have a right to complain.  The
web is a huge place.  Expecting people to track it without proper notice of
what is being discussed is patently unfair.

Edward
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Edward K. Ream   email:  edreamleo at charter.net
Leo: Literate Editor with Outlines
Leo: http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------




From cjw at sympatico.ca  Wed Aug 25 22:00:15 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:00:15 -0400
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <412cc31c$1@news.012.net.il>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com> <412cc31c$1@news.012.net.il>
Message-ID: <412D442F.2040107@sympatico.ca>



Avner Ben wrote:

> I believe putting the decorator list before the function header is 
> generally a bad design decision. While it may make parsing-related 
> sense, it violates Python's greatest asset: being executable pseudocode. 
> The way I see it, the latter quality means being able to look at the 
> code and see clearly and immediately what requirements from the real 
> world the code was written the serve. Functions and methods are major 
> code entities that are naturally expected to represent discrete 
> functional requirements from the code, to this or that level of detail. 
> I expect to learn from the method name, the class it is in and the list 
> of arguments it takes, everything I need to know about the functional 
> requirement it implements. If that is not enough, I will look at the 
> docstring, if present. Everything else the method has to offer is 
> conveniently hidden below. Decorators of the type discussed recently - 
> with the exception of staticmethod and classmethod - are technical 
> detail of the kind I would like to see hidden below. Putting them on 
> top, prior to the what the method does (its name etc.) compromises the 
> design quality of the code, reducing it to yet another 
> abbreviation-based, self-centered technical scripting language.
> The one esception I saw was J2, which, although putting the decorators 
> before the proper method header, uses indentation to state "this is an 
> extra piece of technicality which you are free to ignore - the def is 
> below."
> 
> My vote: C2, E4, J2
> 
>     Avner.
Your expectation list makes sense to me.  There is merit in having the 
docstring before the 'decorator', i.e. E4

Colin W.



From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Wed Aug 11 14:29:54 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:29:54 -0700
Subject: A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
In-Reply-To: <cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1506.1092237421.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<PcGdnQAV7olvoIfcRVn-ig@powergate.ca>
	<cfdh4q$kpm$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <10hkpcaghcu6m9e@corp.supernews.com>

Michael Sparks wrote:

>Peter Hansen wrote:
>  
>
>>class Klass:
>>     # init set
>>
>>     decorate:
>>         staticmethod
>>     def meth0(x):
>>         return x
>>    
>>
>
>[snip]
>My initial reaction to @decorators was "ugh!". However I was coming to
>accept it as inevitable after reading the various arguments for/against
>various syntaxes. *This* syntax strikes me personally as having
>distinct advantages - largely for clarity of code, and solves the 
>"where *DOES* the function start?" question with large decorator
>blocks.
>

I agree.  This seems to fit the absolute requirements I've heard passed 
down from GvR, and also avoids all of the things that really made my 
teeth grate about the @decorator syntax.  It's the first prefix syntax 
I've seen that actually *looks* like Python to my eyes.

There's still room for discussion about the specific keyword (I'd be 
happy enough with "decorate", and not so fond of "using" or "with", but 
a case could easily be made for something else...) and about ordering -- 
presenting the decorators as a suite

decorate:
    d1
    d2
def method( ... )
    pass

suggests to me an equivalence to

method = d2(d1(method))

which is the reverse of the ordering of @decorators.  How significant 
the difference is, I can't say...

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From asqui at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 17 06:38:14 2004
From: asqui at hotmail.com (asqui)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 03:38:14 -0700
Subject: Case sensitivity bug in ConfigParser?
Message-ID: <20568caa.0408170148.6e186536@posting.google.com>

(Assume an instantiated ConfigParser, c, with a loaded file)
>>> c.get("DEFAULT", "foo", False, {"foo": "Bar"})
'Bar'

>>> c.get("DEFAULT", "Foo", False, {"Foo": "Bar"})
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<pyshell#70>", line 1, in ?
    c.get("DEFAULT", "Foo", False, {"Foo": "Bar"})
  File "C:\Python23\lib\ConfigParser.py", line 513, in get
    raise NoOptionError(option, section)
NoOptionError: No option 'foo' in section: 'DEFAULT'


The offending code appears to be as follows (in ConfigParser.py):
    def get(self, section, option):
        opt = self.optionxform(option)
        if section not in self._sections:
            if section != DEFAULTSECT:
                raise NoSectionError(section)
            if opt in self._defaults:
                return self._defaults[opt]
            else:
                raise NoOptionError(option, section)
        elif opt in self._sections[section]:
            return self._sections[section][opt]
        elif opt in self._defaults:
            return self._defaults[opt]
        else:
            raise NoOptionError(option, section)

It uses optionxform on the supplied option, but not on the one in the
defaults dictionary. If you're going to impose a transform then you
have to do it consistently, imho...

>>> c.get("DEFAULT", "Foo", False, {"foo": "Bar"})
'Bar'

The supplied "Foo" gets transformed to "foo" and matches the one in
the defaults dictionary.

Seems a bit counterintuitive to expect that you supply any defaults as
pre-transformed according to your specified optionxform.

I'm not sure if this is also a problem when reading a file, but there
seems to be a related post about this (with no replies!) dating back
to 2000 http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=8suc1f%24mf9%241%40nnrp1.deja.com

I don't have time to look into it now but I'd guess this problem was
resolved in the more obvious location (when reading a file) but
patching of the defaults dictionary case was omitted.


asqui


From pickle_lover37 at hotmail.com  Mon Aug  2 03:30:32 2004
From: pickle_lover37 at hotmail.com (quentin long)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 07:30:32 +0000
Subject: help with py2exe
Message-ID: <BAY15-F27Zc7aptD8xf000b3387@hotmail.com>

i try running it but it gives me an error:
AttributeError: DistributionMetadata instance has no attribute 'get__doc__'
im a complete noob so help me out

_________________________________________________________________
Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/



From tassilo.von.parseval at rwth-aachen.de  Thu Aug 26 03:49:48 2004
From: tassilo.von.parseval at rwth-aachen.de (Tassilo v. Parseval)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:49:48 +0200
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<2a56f6a3.0408252257.4f1f92e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <2p5j10FesankU1@uni-berlin.de>

Also sprach Johnny:

> xah at xahlee.org (Xah Lee) wrote in message news:<7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a at posting.google.com>...
> 
>> How can we prevent heinous cults then? Stop bending truths. Education
>> and rationalism. I'm starting my own cult to exterminate morons on
>> this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl.
> 
> I bet Larry Wall's life insurance premiums just skyrocketed. 

It would, if anyone could take Xah Lee Loo seriously. But really, no one
can. He's more like the court jester, creeping out of the dark every so
and so months. We're all very much enjoying his sporadic shows. Really. 

;-)

Tassilo
-- 
$_=q#",}])!JAPH!qq(tsuJ[{@"tnirp}3..0}_$;//::niam/s~=)]3[))_$-3(rellac(=_$({
pam{rekcahbus})(rekcah{lrePbus})(lreP{rehtonabus})!JAPH!qq(rehtona{tsuJbus#;
$_=reverse,s+(?<=sub).+q#q!'"qq.\t$&."'!#+sexisexiixesixeseg;y~\n~~dddd;eval


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 23:51:11 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:51:11 +1000
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <412e3ba4$0$92817$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj4gzn.13gkzk49zvup2N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<cgkeio$spo$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
	<7xhdqp967k.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<412e3ba4$0$92817$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204082620511eebfe19@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:14:33 +0100, Michael Sparks
<zathras at thwackety.com> wrote:

>    1 The @pie implementation might stay as is.
>    2 The @pie implementation might stay, but require explicit activation
>      needing a __future__ statement. This to my mind is a good option - it
>      clearly marks the feature as experimental, making people shy away from
>      use unless they really do need it.
>    3 J2 might be accepted.
>    4 The feature might be ripped out
>    * etc...
> 
> Options 2 or 3 strike me as the best approach here - introduce a feature,
> mark it as experimental, with a large warning that it might change in the
> next release. That potentially allows the best of both worlds - people can
> use the feature in earnest, but do so on the understanding that the feature
> may change in a later release meaning that if they use it they have to be
> prepared to change their code. Furthermore if they release code using the
> feature they should be very careful how they use the feature.

That's not the way Python works - we don't rip stuff out once it's
been in a final release. from __future__ is added so that people can
turn on a new feature gradually, without their code being instantly
broken.


From unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom  Sat Aug 28 01:16:01 2004
From: unseulmcmcmcmc at msupprimerlepoint.claveauPOINTcom (Michel Claveau - abstraction méta-galactique non triviale en fuite perpétuelle.)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 07:16:01 +0200
Subject: Iteration over Lists and Strings
References: <cUSXc.56768$xi6.42946@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<mailman.2552.1093664310.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cgpa73$oa5$1@news-reader2.wanadoo.fr>

and enumerate is more fast than index.





From ellisjb at my-deja.com  Sat Aug  7 01:26:36 2004
From: ellisjb at my-deja.com (ellisjb at my-deja.com)
Date: 6 Aug 2004 22:26:36 -0700
Subject: Tkinter, Simple Table
In-Reply-To: <cej6bn$ab0$1@schleim.qwe.de>
Message-ID: <cf1p6c$96q@odah37.prod.google.com>

Tkinter doesn't do tables very well...  The closest thing I can think
of to what you want is the multilistbox recipe in the python cookbook,
but that's not going to handle multiple lines per 'cell' IIANM.

-Jonathan

Torsten Mohr wrote:
> Hi everybody,
>
> i'd like to have a small python script that creates a
> table (like in Excel) and where i can enter multiline
> text in the tables cells.
>
> Can anybody give me a hint where to look?
>
> Does TList do what i want?  THe description looked good,
> but i didn't find an example for it.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Torsten.



From python at elehack.net  Wed Aug  4 15:33:05 2004
From: python at elehack.net (Michael Ekstrand)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 14:33:05 -0500
Subject: Decorator syntax (was Re: PEP 318 - PyFIT comments)
In-Reply-To: <du7zn5a1zxp.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>
References: <10h24oace15n97a@news.supernews.com>
	<du7zn5a1zxp.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>
Message-ID: <200408041433.05668.python@elehack.net>

On Wednesday 04 August 2004 14:11, Ville Vainio wrote:
> Yes, it should work. It's also a terrible waste of @ punctuation,
> which should IMO be reserved for some more worthwhile purpose.

I'd concur with that... I saw the decorator syntax and thought "what is 
this thing? and why is it in Python?"

When I read about decorators in the What's New guide, the first syntax 
that jumped to my mind was:

def(staticmethod) somemethod(self, args):
    some code

This was before reading the PEP or seeing any other recommendations for 
syntax (except the nested-block syntax mentioned in another thread, 
which I don't like either; it seems to not fit the nature of 
decorations very well).

-Michael


From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Thu Aug 12 16:23:25 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:23:25 +0200
Subject: decorator with keyword
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121024260.3440-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
References: <cffcir$q5p$02$1@news.t-online.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408121024260.3440-100000@ccc8.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <2o21dhF65snnU1@uni-berlin.de>

Christopher T King wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Peter Otten wrote:
> 
>> [decorator examples]
> 
> +2 on this (can I give a +2?).  It's not only pretty, but it addresses my
> gripe about decorators being used for too many purposes (by providing a
> clean way to supply function attributes).  Additionally, by moving
> docstrings into the transform: block, this provides an easy way to
> document the generated function, rather than forcing decorators to
> preserve docstrings by copying the decoratee's docstring into the
> decorated function.
> 
> The PythonDecorators wiki doesn't say Guido has specifically shot this 
> style down, so it may yet have a chance.

I would also support this variant. I was a supporter of list-after-def,
but this seems to me pythonic AND readable.

+1! Hope Guido hears about that proposal!

Reinhold

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From jacek.generowicz at cern.ch  Wed Aug 25 04:55:29 2004
From: jacek.generowicz at cern.ch (Jacek Generowicz)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 10:55:29 +0200
Subject: Python future performance and speed
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<cg94oc$2e6$1@panix3.panix.com>
	<roy-37CEFC.10153622082004@reader1.panix.com>
	<3064b51d.0408221352.ca7b57e@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <tyfpt5fppfi.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>

beliavsky at aol.com writes:


> (2) The Python approach to OOP is very different -- looser -- than
> that of C++ and has less support for data hiding. For example, one can
> add an attribute to an object anywhere, which seems like a dubious
> freedom to me.

Seems like a damn useful freedom to me. But then I've worked with
people who refused to take the obvious clean, efficent, clear design
decision only because it violated some principle they were told about
in some OOA&D class ... only to insist on creating a program which was
slow, ugly, difficult to understand, difficult to maintain, and had a
few less useful features.

> (3) The beginning of a Python function only tells you about the
> arguments, not the result. I prefer not to scan the entire body of a
> function to see what it returns. Compiled languages like C++, Fortran,
> and Pascal put the argument and result info in one place.

And compiled lanugages like Lisp[1] and Python[2] don't. Oh, you meant
"explicitly statically typed", rather than "compiled", I see :-)

But caring about the type to this extent is not a very productive way
of programming in Python. You should understand the purpose of the
function, and thereby understand the duck types it accepts and returns
... and duck types are not expressible in a way that wouldn't make a
explicitly static compiler smoke.

Of course, those coming from the bondage school of programming (C++,
Java ...) will run screaming when confronted with duck typing, but
that's their loss.

> (4) Python does not look like C++. Some programmers think that any
> alternative to C++ must still look like it. I think this argument is
> weak, but Java's cosmetic similarity to C++ probably has boosted its
> popularity.

This is one of the greatest tragedies: C++ is accepted as the starting
point. We're doomed.



[1] Compiled to native machine code (usually).

[2] Compiled to bytecode (usually).


From me at privacy.net  Wed Aug 18 07:30:05 2004
From: me at privacy.net (Dan Sommers)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 07:30:05 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
References: <mailman.1829.1092785390.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<65adnQrUKILiC7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1834.1092791633.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <m2vffgd6pu.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:13:47 -0400,
Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:

> First though, I still believe that we should exploit existing
> conventions (recommended coding practices) as a way of getting 'free'
> declarations for class, static, and instance methods (e.g. methods
> whose first param is 'self' are instance methods, etc.). That feels
> very pythonic to me, just as we use naming conventions to distinguish
> public, private, and semi-private methods.

I don't understand how assigning semantic significance to a "recommended
coding practice" is Pythonic.

In the face of ambiguity, refuse to guess.

Explicit is better than implicit.

I think that the idea that started this thread is just right:

    def decorator function( arguments ): pass

is exactly equivalent to

    def function( arguments ): pass
    decorator( function )

Note that:

    - the decorator is right next to the function name
    - the decorator is outside the code of the function
    - there are no new keywords or punctuation
    - it's dynamic, flexible, and extensible

It's also abusable, but that's the nature of a language as dynamic as
Python.

Regards,
Dan

-- 
Dan Sommers
<http://www.tombstonezero.net/dan/>
Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Fri Aug  6 09:57:49 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:57:49 -0400
Subject: Trimming a string
In-Reply-To: <UNednTrFbM8I547cRVn-rw@powergate.ca>
References: <10gsmuieo65du5d@news.supernews.com>
	<ektPc.165630$OB3.11201@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
	<10gsotqjc2qrl54@news.supernews.com> <cevgjt$ok1$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
	<UNednTrFbM8I547cRVn-rw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408060954350.30087-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Peter Hansen wrote:

> Braindamagedness notwithstanding, Double Dumbass (appropriately
> named?) needs to learn to cope with his situation in life and
> reading the tutorial repeatedly, even, if necessary each time
> before posting a question, would be a better approach than
> insulting those who try to help.

He should take a page from the decorator debate - several hundred posts 
(possibly over a thousand), and not one direct insult hurled or flame war 
started (though I have been accused of insinuating others enganged in 
"dastardly" behaviour ;)).



From swheatley at gmail.com  Tue Aug  3 16:28:27 2004
From: swheatley at gmail.com (Shawn Wheatley)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 16:28:27 -0400
Subject: C# / .NET books recommendations? (was: Re: Importance of C#)
In-Reply-To: <b83c9f9c.0408021424.234bd2c5@posting.google.com>
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>
	<ce9cp3$g39$1@bagan.srce.hr> <5dydnZSDZaARoZXcRVn-ug@powergate.ca>
	<gmint1-db3.ln1@lairds.us>
	<9418be08.0407292114.129c856f@posting.google.com>
	<ceemns$dga$1@bagan.srce.hr>
	<b83c9f9c.0408021424.234bd2c5@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <ad37863d04080313283861b38a@mail.gmail.com>

The only one I would say I can't do without is "Pragmatic ADO.NET". 
It is _the_ reference for any database stuff you want to do with .NET.
 All the code is in C#.  So once you have C# down, check this book
out.

Shawn

On 2 Aug 2004 15:24:58 -0700, Ely Stob <ely.stob at elvis.com> wrote:
> Ivan Voras <ivoras at __geri.cc.fer.hr> writes:
> > Elbert Lev wrote:
> >
> > > C# IS a good language and .NET is a very good environment. Recently I
> ....
> > > Important - Python realities (not exotic) map on C# perfectly.
> >
> > My experience exactly - this is what I was fishing for. While I
> > wouldn't say 'perfectly', it is good, and certainly 'good enough'.
> 
> Interesting comment.
> 
> Anybody have recommendations (and warnings-off...) for books on C#, .NET,
> and associated gubbins? (ASP.NET, ADO.NET, Windows Forms, ...)
> 
> I'm guessing that I'll need a good half-tonne of dead tree if I'm to get a
> grasp of it <0.5 wink>.  Figuring out *which* half-tonne might be even
> more time-consuming than reading that dry mass, though...
> 
> Some books that caught my own eye - all comments much appreciated:
> 
> C# and .NET
> ===========
> 
> Jesse Liberty; Programming C#
> 
> Andrew Troelsen; C# and the .Net Platform
> 
> Anders Hejlsberg, Scott Wiltamuth, Peter Golde; The C# Programming Language
> 
> Box, Sells; Essential .NET
> 
> Stephen Teilhet, Jay Hilyar; C# Cookbook; (O'Reilly)
> 
> Peter Drayton, et al; C# in a Nutshell; (O'Reilly)
> 
> J Richter; Applied Microsoft .NET Framework Programming
> 
> Windows Forms
> =============
> 
> Chris Sells; Windows Forms Programming in C#
> 
> Matthew MacDonald; User Interfaces with C SHARP: Windows Forms and Custom Controls
> 
> ASP.NET
> =======
> 
> Jesse Liberty, Dan Hurwitz; Programming ASP.NET
> 
> Fritz Onion; Essential ASP.NET with Examples in C#
> 
> N. Kothari; Developing ASP.NET Server Controls and Components
> 
> ADO.NET
> =======
> 
> D. Sceppa; Microsoft ADO .NET (Core Reference)
> 
> Misc
> ====
> 
> R. Jeffries; Extreme Programming Adventures in C#
> 
> I see Petzold is soldiering on, too :-/
> 
> ely
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From jack at performancedrivers.com  Thu Aug 12 21:59:45 2004
From: jack at performancedrivers.com (Jack Diederich)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 21:59:45 -0400
Subject: Why I love python.
In-Reply-To: <411c09aa$1@nntp.zianet.com>
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<411c09aa$1@nntp.zianet.com>
Message-ID: <20040813015945.GO23725@performancedrivers.com>

On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 08:22:01PM -0400, Mark Bottjer wrote:
> Michael Scarlett wrote:
> >I don't know about the rest of you, but I learned python and fell in
> >love with its syntax and simplicity.
> 
> That's the funny thing about Python. It really isn't simple, but it sure 
> seems like it is. There's tons of little niggling rules about scoping, 
> inheritance, and what have you--but you can be blissfully ignorant of 
> most of them and still get work done. That's pretty unique.
> 
> I think that's why people are so concerned about @pie: it has the 
> *potential* to be an obstacle early in the learning process, instead of 
> after someone is already hooked.
> 
Agreed, python isn't simple and those hidden things are actually useful for
getting real work done.  I've been using python industrially for three years
and I'm a big fan of decorators;  decorators would help me get things done.
I liked the look of [decorators] before colon option more, but the current
situation of

def foo(a,b,c):
  #
  # 60 lines of code here
  #
foo = mutate(foo) # oh, and by the way the 'def foo' 
                  # signature might be misleading

'foo = mutate(foo)' It is boilerplate, python is nice because it eschews
boilerplate.

While the decorator syntax might not be obvious to newbies they won't see
it in simple code.  When then do see it having @mutate right next to the 
func def has to be more of a clue than 'foo=mutate(foo)' lines or screens away.

-Jack


From davidf at sjsoft.com  Tue Aug 24 04:54:02 2004
From: davidf at sjsoft.com (David Fraser)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:54:02 +0200
Subject: advice for perl expert wanting to learn python
In-Reply-To: <6d668d6.0408231452.44e2d14f@posting.google.com>
References: <slrncguga2.fcp.mordor@fly.srk.fer.hr>
	<cevpef$bku$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
	<6d668d6.0408231452.44e2d14f@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgevnb$r7o$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>

Keith Farmer wrote:
> David Fraser <davidf at sjsoft.com> wrote in message news:<cevpef$bku$1 at ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>...
> 
>>Zeljko Vrba wrote:
> 
> 
>>>And most important thing, how does Python deal with database connectivity?
>>>Is there a single API (akin to DBI) for connecting to databases?
> 
> 
>>I have used Oracle, SQLServer and Access via ADO - try adodpapi.sf.net 
>>which is a wrapper for ADO to the Python DB-API.
>>But note that you may well not be able to use any of this database stuff 
>>from IronPython
> 
> 
> Assuming you find yourself working with .NET -- as you would with
> IronPython -- I would expect it to have access to the stock database
> namespaces under whatever environment you're in: under MS's
> implementation of .NET, System.Data.* (same under Mono?).  This would
> be the most likely line, since there's a lot of prior work in .NET
> that targets that namespace, including UI controls.
> 
> For documentation, search for "ADO.NET".  It's actually a pretty good
> framework, and doesn't require a database connection to make use of it
> (ie, you want an in-memory database, but don't need persistent
> storage).
> 
> I don't know what Jim's planning to do with the Python db api, but
> between the two, I'd personally use ADO.NET when available.  I'd
> suggest the IronPython email list (www.ironpython.org) for more
> information.

The disadvantage of using ADO.NET is that you'll lose the portability 
advantages of the Python db API (i.e. you'll only be able to use the 
code on IronPython).
The correct approach is to write a DB API-compatible wrapper for ADO.NET 
:-) (as has been done for ADO)

David


From Jared.Cohen at noaa.gov  Fri Aug 20 13:37:21 2004
From: Jared.Cohen at noaa.gov (Jared Cohen)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:37:21 -0400
Subject: Fate of lambda, Functional Programming in Python...
Message-ID: <412636D1.6070808@noaa.gov>

  Agreed! I'm currently building a GUI in Tkinter, with event handlers 
and callbacks all over the place. The lambda form is an absolute MUST 
for this kind of thing!
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From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Aug  6 04:39:51 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 10:39:51 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
In-Reply-To: <HBF.20040806egka@bombur.uio.no>
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no> <4112AC7B.1060508@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040806egka@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <411343D7.3020604@v.loewis.de>

Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
> Well, I don't think that's better, but if it's rejected for Python
> that'll be my next stop.

I can see how the global warning is provided (which then can be 
configured into an error through the warnings module). However,
I don't want to introduce additional magic comments. I already
dislike the coding declarations for being comments, and would
have preferred if they had been spelled as

directive encoding "utf-8"

The coding declaration was only acceptable because
- a statement would have to go before the doc string, in
   which case it would not have been a docstring anymore, and
- there was prior art (Emacs and VIM) for declaring encodings
   to editors, inside comments

Your proposed annotation has no prior art. As it has
effects on the syntax of the language, it should not be in
a comment.

Regards,
Martin


From dennis.benzinger at gmx.net  Thu Aug 26 07:22:22 2004
From: dennis.benzinger at gmx.net (Dennis Benzinger)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 04:22:22 -0700
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <3734459e.0408260322.3dd9ae06@posting.google.com>

I vote FOR J2.

Dennis Benzinger


From rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 17 12:16:15 2004
From: rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com (Reid Nichol)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:16:15 -0500
Subject: Python secure?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1773.1092718751.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <cfnqqg$9d8$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk><ct15v1-a56.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com><ZKRTc.3710$bJ2.23892@news1.mts.net>	<cforh6$qiv$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk><mailman.1705.1092625838.5135.python-list@python.org><2xXTc.3775$bJ2.24876@news1.mts.net>	<NIydnd-skK0q173cRVn-ow@powergate.ca><mailman.1751.1092678567.5135.python-list@python.org>	<rzeUc.3995$bJ2.26585@news1.mts.net>
	<mailman.1773.1092718751.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <GaqUc.4100$bJ2.27640@news1.mts.net>

Terry Reedy wrote:
>>And what language is Python programmed in... oh yah, C.  Perhaps people
>>shouldn't talk about how poorly secure C and then go off to how secure
>>Python is when Python is written in C.  Houses built on sand...
> As we both said, C is safer in the hands of expert, experienced, careful
> programmers.  People like you claim to be and people like Guido and Tim
> Peters.  They program in C so we have less need to.  And I am grateful for
> that.
> 
> Terry J. Reedy

If you read what I wrote you would've found that I recommended learning 
with Python and then deciding which programming language suited the 
project the best.

If you read what I wrote you would've found that I was defending C in 
general terms and *not* in context of a beginner programmer.

And I'll leave the rest of you snide remarks along for I won't lower 
myself to such things.


From peter at engcorp.com  Sat Aug 21 00:00:59 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:00:59 -0400
Subject: Why are strings immutable?
In-Reply-To: <chzVc.288437$a24.71659@attbi_s03>
References: <chzVc.288437$a24.71659@attbi_s03>
Message-ID: <ibednRPmoMofVbvcRVn-oA@powergate.ca>

Brent W. Hughes wrote:

> I kind of hate to have to convert a string into a list, manipulate it, and
> then convert it back into a string.  Why not make strings mutable?

It is unlikely you are doing whatever it is you need to do
in the best way possible if you are converting to a list and
back.  What's the use case here?  Can you describe what you
need to accomplish without reference to how you think it should
be accomplished?  Maybe there's a better way...

-Peter


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Tue Aug 31 15:56:44 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:56:44 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>	<e69d3ed2040
	<HBF.20040830aznn@ <loom.20040831T212300-455@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <loom.20040831T215210-712@post.gmane.org>

I wrote:
> What you're suggesting is that given:
> 
> def f1():
>     __author__ = 'Steve'
> 
> and
> 
> def f2():
>     author = 'Steve'
> 
> in f1, the assignment to __author__ occurs in the function's namespace, but 
> in f2, the assignment to author occurs in the local namespace.  Clearly 
> then, the __xxx__ format (if at the beginning of a function) changes the 
> namespace to which an assignment applies.

Note that the parallel for classes would be if, given:

class F1:
    __author__ = 'Steve'

and

class F2:
    author = 'Steve'

that the __author__ assignment in F1 occured in one namespace, while the 
author assignment in F2 occured in another namespace.  (Something like 
__author__ only being available from the class object, while author was only 
available from class instance objects.)  Python could almost certainly be 
treat __xxx__ variables to work this way, but it's not the way it works 
*now*.  This is why I say that you're introducing a totally new semantics to 
__xxx__ assignments.

Steve



From bokr at oz.net  Sat Aug  7 19:50:47 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 7 Aug 2004 23:50:47 GMT
Subject: @decorator syntax is sugar, but for what exactly?
Message-ID: <cf3psn$oot$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

ISTM that
    @limited_expression_producing_function
    @another
    def func(): pass

is syntactic sugar for creating a hidden list of functions. (Using '|' in place of '@'
doesn't change the picture much (except for people whose tools depend on '@' ;-)).

I.e., (not having the source or time to delve) the apparent semantics of the above
is something roughly like

    __funclist__ = []
    __funclist__.append(limited_expression_producing_function)
    __funclist__.append(another)
    def func():pass
    while __funclist__: func = __funclist__.pop()(func)
    del __funclist__

Is this a special case of a more general idea? E.g., could it apply to
right after ANY next name is bound, in general, not just a name bound by def?

thus (untested)

    def censor(cls):
        cls.__repr__ = lambda self: '<CENSORED>'
        return cls
    ...
    @censor
    class C(object): pass

could have the expected effect (after metaclass effects, if any, presumably, BTW)
(note that censor could instead e.g. wrap selected methods or add class variable data etc.,
though IIRC __metaclass__ can create some things that are read-only later)

This is still very narrowly defined by prefix context. Is this context also
a special case default of something more general? IOW the default choice for
namespace is the lexically enclosing one. What about, e.g., being able to specify
decoration in one place at the top of a module and decorate (in the same way, using
the same function list) all methods of a specified (by name) list of classes?

I.e., a more general control over what to do when what names are bound in what namespace
could be envisaged. This begins to feel like event-driven processing. Could @deco1 @deco2
be sugar for the special case (don't take this literally, just illustrating semantics ;-)

    when(event='next_binding', namespace='immediate', symbols='any', funclist=(deco1,deco2))
    def foo(): pass

of something general that could also include other and possibly repeated events like on completion
of an arg list for a particular function or method being called or any rebinding of particular
symbols in a specified namespace (not just the immediate one), e.g., for debugging or profiling etc.

Since I am copying this to python-dev, I'll re-ask whether @decorator has any peculiar
thread safety pitfalls that should be warned against, just in case.

Please take this as a probe into the intended semantics, not as a proposal for any particular
functionality ;-)

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Aug 24 17:26:02 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (Simon John)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 14:26:02 -0700
Subject: Begginers questions on different distributions of py
Message-ID: <cggbpa$dv4@odah37.prod.google.com>

As I recall, the AS version includes win32all

The main difference is that the AS version doesn't require Admin access
(at least that's how the Solaris version differed).

Personally I always use the more up-to-date official versions from
www.python.org



From dai4happy at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  3 21:47:56 2004
From: dai4happy at yahoo.com (angel)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 09:47:56 +0800
Subject: Does python support multi prototype.
Message-ID: <2natmnFv86rjU1@uni-berlin.de>

Hi

Java and cpp support one function name multi function prototype.
For example:
A:
int func1(String s){}
int func1(int i){}

B:
int func1(String s){}
int func1(String s, int i){}

Does python support it?

Thanx




From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Tue Aug 24 09:09:56 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:09:56 GMT
Subject: __name__ becoming read-write?
References: <uutji0h87t24cb1nej03gdggs0hg6eno3l@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2205.1093275632.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<c94ki0dgh70ud7e1ok8sshlvg4pe96s4h8@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2211.1093279236.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<3b8ki0tlphodtt8ge8an274qp78ihp1i3n@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2223.1093282711.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ultki0h81hl8fmgd452tqsfqihv6hpvege@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2261.1093321637.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <8cdmi0dipgk5192li1p8mm2n1hls2hs7rl@4ax.com>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:27:15 +1000, Anthony Baxter
<anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 23:17:25 GMT, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote:
>> > "So wait, this stuff that _looks_ like code in a
>> >function, isn't actually? what the hell?" The new syntax[1] for
>> >decorators is at least very obvious that something _new_ is going on.
>> 
>> I am thinking (and I think Paul is thinking) that we can say the same
>> thing, succintly, in a manner that has precedence in the language
>> 
>> Mine's a one-liner that does not totally relieve the magicians burden
>> to be - somwhere down the line -  a bit expressive
>
>I'm not _quite_ sure what it is you're asking for here, but it _seems_
>like you want to have two different blocks inside a def - the first is
>the meta-block, which contains docstrings and other magic attributes,
>while the second is the actual code body? Is this correct? If this is
>the case, I think it's _possible_ that in the future we might see
>something like this, for typing purposes. Maybe. I'm not sure. But if
>we do, I can't see any point _at_ _all_ to signifying magic things
>with arbitrary words surrounded with __under__ meaning 'under is a
>decorator'. While Python does use __foo__, the list of values for foo
>that are meaningful is well described and documented.

All I think I am looking for is proportionality.  The solution should
be proportional to the problem.  The current syntax is expressive in
the way that, I thought, was always considered to be fundamental to
the concept of Pythonic. 

What is happening is no more and no less than what is obvious from the
code to someone who may have never studied the Python documentation,
but who is simply generally literate.  

The problems identified with the current syntax is:

1) the placement of the transformative code under the function  -
leading to a purely hypothetical problem - I am not aware of any
reports of acutal issues arising - of a reader missing important
information related to the function.

2) burdensome amounts of typing when dealing with long function names.

If Python needs to apologize for being itself in the limited
circumstances that give rise to these conditions, perhaps it can be
done with a bit more - I don't know - dignity.  Which would involve
recognizing the issues as minor annoyances, and providing some limited
relief.

I am though concluding that , if anything, tmy own suggestion goes
further than it should.  No __under__ is necessary.  We have #comment
for the developer to commnicate anything he needs to communicate about
the function from within the function.

And in those cases where the developer's editor's cut and paste
facility are on the fritz and they are dealing with 70 letter function
names, you have given them a writeable __name__ attribute as another
weapon to solve their issue. 

No it won't solve everything. But then there isn't that much to be
solved.

The solution of fixing these limtied annoyances by redefining good
Python decoding style to include  and encourage magic declarations
that can only be meaningful to a studied Pythoneers, is totally out of
left field, IMO. 

The shifting sands have and will have their own costs. IMO, here those
costs are substantial.  The hundreds of arguments that have gone on
here on python-list, with Python explaining itself and defending
itself, will have to be restated.  Because the Zen no longer holds as
nearly as true, and there becomes little left to distinguish Python as
a programming apporach.

For those who think that Python's future is  - perhaps - *the* CLR
language, and that this kind of redefintion of the language is a
necessary step in the direction that will make that kind of thing
possible, I would say  - not in my shop.

Art

Art




From calidusdk at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 23 08:12:30 2004
From: calidusdk at hotmail.com (Artemisio)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 05:12:30 -0700
Subject: line shift?  (baby steps 2)
Message-ID: <6daa8765.0408230412.6db365d6@posting.google.com>

I have done a small currency calculator. It works and I'm very glad.
But...I'd like to have a line shift if user types a wrong choice.
Please, look at the code and output example down here:

# -*- coding: ISO-8859-1 -*-
import string

eudk_currency= 7.47
dkeu_currency= 0.13
usdk_currency= 5.93
dkus_currency= 0.16
euus_currency= 1.19
useu_currency= 0.78

currency_choice= raw_input("Please type DK if you want convert to DKK,
EU if you want to convert to ?: ")
currency_str= str(currency_choice).upper()

while currency_str != "EUDK" and currency_str != "DKEU" and
currency_str != "USDK" and currency_str != "DKUS"\
and currency_str != "EUUS" and currency_str!= "USEU":
    currency_choice= raw_input("Sorry. At the moment we only support
DKK, Euro and Dollars." + "\n" \
    "Type DKEU if you want convert from DKK to ?," + "\n" \
	"EUDK if you want to convert from DKK to ?," + "\n" \
	 "DKUS if you want to convert from DKK to $," + "\n" \
	 "USDK if you want to convert from $ to DKK," + "\n"
	"EUUS if you want to convert from ? to $," + "\n"\
	"and USEU if you want to convert from $ to ?: ")
    currency_str= str(currency_choice).upper()

amount_int= input("Please type the amount you wish to convert: ")

if currency_str == "DKEU":
    result= amount_int* dkeu_currency
    print amount_int, "Danish Crowns correspond to", result, "Euro."

if currency_str == "EUDK":
    result= amount_int* eudk_currency   
    print amount_int, "Euro correspond to", result, "Danish Crowns."	

if currency_str == "USDK":
	result= amount_int* usdk_currency
	print amount_int, "Dollars correspond to", result, "Danish Crowns."

if currency_str == "DKUS":
	result= amount_int* dkus_currency
	print amount_int, "Danish Crowns correspond to", result, "Dollars."

if currency_str == "EUUS":
	result= amount_int* euus_currency
	print amount_int, "Euro correspond to", result, "Dollars."

if currency_str == "USEU":
	result= amount_int* useu_currency
	print amount_int, "Dollars correspond to", result, "Euro."
#CODE END

OUTPUT:
	
Please type DK if you want convert to DKK, EU if you want to convert
to ?: sdsd
Sorry. At the moment we only support DKK, Euro and Dollars.
Type DKEU if you want convert from DKK to ?,
EUDK if you want to convert from DKK to ?,
DKUS if you want to convert from DKK to $,
USDK if you want to convert from $ to DKK,
EUUS if you want to convert from ? to $,
and USEU if you want to convert from $ to ?: usdk
Please type the amount you wish to convert: 99
99 Dollars correspond to 587.07 Danish Crowns.

How do I get a line shift before (and/or) after the "Sorry....At the
moment"), so the output is something like:

Please type DK if you want convert to DKK, EU if you want to convert
to ?: sdsd

Sorry. At the moment we only support DKK, Euro and Dollars.
Type DKEU if you want convert from DKK to ?,
EUDK if you want to convert from DKK to ?,
DKUS if you want to convert from DKK to $,
USDK if you want to convert from $ to DKK,
EUUS if you want to convert from ? to $,
and USEU if you want to convert from $ to ?: usdk
Please type the amount you wish to convert: 99
99 Dollars correspond to 587.07 Danish Crowns.

OR

Please type DK if you want convert to DKK, EU if you want to convert
to ?: sdsd

Sorry. At the moment we only support DKK, Euro and Dollars.

Type DKEU if you want convert from DKK to ?,
EUDK if you want to convert from DKK to ?,
DKUS if you want to convert from DKK to $,
USDK if you want to convert from $ to DKK,
EUUS if you want to convert from ? to $,
and USEU if you want to convert from $ to ?: usdk
Please type the amount you wish to convert: 99
99 Dollars correspond to 587.07 Danish Crowns.

???
Thank you for your patience! :-)


From skip at pobox.com  Wed Aug 18 12:27:47 2004
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:27:47 -0500
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <dave.opstad-73EBC2.07415018082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<dave.opstad-73EBC2.07415018082004@reader0903.news.uu.net>
Message-ID: <16675.33667.465603.851850@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Dave> Python fits my brain.

I agree.  This gets my nod for QOTW.

Skip


From prabhu at aero.iitm.ernet.in  Mon Aug 16 00:34:47 2004
From: prabhu at aero.iitm.ernet.in (Prabhu Ramachandran)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 00:34:47 -0400
Subject: Trouble with file.seek/file.tell on Win32?
In-Reply-To: <1f7befae04081512496c6f2727@mail.gmail.com>
References: <16671.45400.965715.943437@enthought.hathway.com>
	<1f7befae04081512496c6f2727@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16672.14695.671538.635569@enthought.hathway.com>

Hi,

Many thanks for taking the time to respond.

>>>>> "TP" == Tim Peters <tim.peters at gmail.com> writes:

    TP> [Prabhu Ramachandran]
    >> I noticed peculiar behavior under Python-2.3.4 under Win32.
    >> When I run something like this:
    >>
    >> f = open('t.txt', 'wb') f.write('1\012'+'2\012'+'3\012')
    >> f.close() f = open('t.txt', 'r')

    TP> Sorry, you're in trouble already.  You can *tell* Windows
    TP> that's a text file, but it doesn't contain native Windows
    TP> text-file data (it has the wrong kind of line end for
    TP> Windows).

Yes, I was aware of that, files with the right line endings did work
fine.  I was not aware that files with the wrong line endings under
Win32 could break tell and seek.

Here is what happened.  I was building a self-extracting installer for
a CVS snapshot of MayaVi (using Gordon McMillan's installer).  The
file in question is a MayaVi visualization file.  This is parsed to
generate a visualization.  I use file.tell and file.seek to handle
some backwards compatibility issues (its an ugly hack but works).

The file in question has not changed in years and used to work fine
when I built the installer last time.  What I did not realize is that
the file that is distributed with the previous installer had the right
line endings!  Here is the wierd part.  I work primarily on Linux and
build a zip and tarball using distutils.  I take the zip file to a
windows box and have setup scripts to do bulk of the dirty work.  It
has worked just fine in all previous attempts (on different machines
with earlier versions of Python).  This time I setup a Windows XP
machine with all the software.  I got the ZIP file I just built,
unzipped it, and tried to load the example visualization and it
failed.  For some reason the line endings were not converted this time
around.  I had no explanation as to why that happened.  I suspected
that it was the line endings under windows.  Since neither the files
or *my* scripts had changed in any way to touch line endings, I
suspected it was a bug with the way Python handled the line endings
this time.  It was not distutils either since the MayaVi-1.3.zip file
at sourceforge also has the unix style file.  So I assumed that since
nothing relevant had changed with my sources and scripts it must be
Python.  I was wrong.

I now realize that the only significant difference is the unzip
utility I used.  I used Winzip the last time I built the binaries.  A
google search reveals that Winzip does indeed convert line endings by
default.  This time I used the standard WinXP tools to unzip the file
and they don't convert line endings.  I did not know or suspect that.
So, sorry for the false alarm.  I'm happy though that the puzzle is
solved.  I'm happy to also learn that bad line endings break tell and
seek.  I guess this is a problem on the mac too where lines end with
'\r'.  Is this true of OSX?

Anyway, it looks like I should either simply read and write to the
file using the 'rb' and 'wb' modes on all platforms or make sure that
line endings in the file are correct on the platform.  I should also
encourage folks to use unzip utilities with care.

[...]

Thanks for the detailed example showing that the problem is not with
Python.  Sorry for the bother.

Thanks again.

regards,
prabhu




From com-nospam at ccraig.org  Fri Aug 20 15:01:04 2004
From: com-nospam at ccraig.org (Christopher A. Craig)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 15:01:04 -0400
Subject: Fate of lambda, Functional Programming in Python...
References: <412636D1.6070808@noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <t1wvffd7hxr.fsf@kermit.wreck.org>

"Jared Cohen" <Jared.Cohen at noaa.gov> writes:

>   Agreed! I'm currently building a GUI in Tkinter, with event handlers and
>   callbacks all over the place. The lambda form is an absolute MUST for this
>   kind of thing!

Nobody is talking about removing the ability to pass functions, just
the actual "lambda" form.

You can still build a GUI by doing

def spam(stuff):
  def eggs(parrot):
    return 5+parrot
  return eggs

You just can't do

def spam(stuff):
  return lambda foo: 5+parrot


I can't think of a situation where you _really_ need the second (and
much more limited) form.

-- 
Christopher A. Craig <com-nospam at ccraig.org>
"The shortest distance between two points is usually torn up." Frank Walsh



From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Aug 27 02:37:56 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 08:37:56 +0200
Subject: What GCC version had <stdint.h> defined?
In-Reply-To: <412ecb16$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
References: <412e39d1$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
	<412E55A9.9070400@v.loewis.de>	<412e70d3$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
	<mailman.2492.1093573592.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<412ecb16$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
Message-ID: <412ed6c3$0$26150$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

Scott David Daniels wrote:
> The problem is, of course (Billy G is always a problem), that I am running
> on Win2K, so I don't run configure.in.  I have two copies of MinGW --
> one 2.95 (no stdint.h), and one 3.2.3 which does do stdint.h.
> These were not set up when whoever built windows 2.3.4 did so -- he or
> she did not know what was going to be on my disk after I downloaded and
> installed python.

Can you please explain what the problem is that you are trying to solve?
Apparently, it is not compiling Python.

If you are trying to compile a Python extension, can't you just check
for presence of /usr/include/stdint.h in setup.py?

But then, if you are compiling an extension - why do you even *need*
to know whether stdint.h is present?

Regards,
Martin


From lconrad at laymusic.org  Fri Aug  6 13:36:52 2004
From: lconrad at laymusic.org (Laura Conrad)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 13:36:52 -0400
Subject: Killing children
Message-ID: <87smb0w4ln.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>


I'm writing an application that has to spawn some processes and then
kill them later.  It doesn't need to talk or listen to them while
they're running, but there are stop and start buttons and the stop
button should stop everything that gets started by the start button.

There are lots of ways to do this on Linux, but this project has to
run under cygwin.  So far, the only thing I've gotten to work at all
under cygwin is doing an 'os.system' to start the process and then
parsing the "ps" output and using os.kill on the processes that ps
finds.  This is unsatisfactory in a number of ways.  

I have been unable to get os.spawnl to start the processes correctly.
I was using pexpect, which worked fine with test programs, but not
with the actual processes that need to be spawned.  I did a little bit
of playing with the "process" module but didn't get it working right.

Does anyone have a better idea?  
-- 
Laura (mailto:lconrad at laymusic.org , http://www.laymusic.org/ )
(617) 661-8097	fax: (501) 641-5011
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139




From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz  Thu Aug 19 22:31:58 2004
From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:31:58 +1200
Subject: My only complaint about Python
In-Reply-To: <cg2ko0$2jl$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
	<cg2ko0$2jl$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>
Message-ID: <2ol650Fbr791U1@uni-berlin.de>

David Fraser wrote:
> I agree. I don't mind it being built with Visual Studio, but out of the 
> box mingw compatibility would be cool...

As a step towards this, it would be useful if it were
distributed with the libpythonXX.a that mingw requires
already built. Then it would just be a matter of giving
the appropriate flag to setup.py when compiling a module.

-- 
Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept,
University of Canterbury,	
Christchurch, New Zealand
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg



From whereU at now.com  Mon Aug 16 22:16:15 2004
From: whereU at now.com (Eric Pederson)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:16:15 -0800
Subject: music resources
Message-ID: <20040816181615.1126066215.whereU@now.com>

> Elaine Jackson wrote:

> > Is there such a thing as an executable language for music? If not, why
> > not? And
> > if yes, where can I find it? Naturally the ideal thing would be if
> > such a
> > language were implemented within python, but I would be willing to
> > learn a
> > lesser programming language if I had a reasonable assurance that it
> > had what I'm
> > looking for. 


There is some interesting stuff out there:

Check out the Python sounds project:  http://pythonsound.sourceforge.net/

Also, there is AthenaCL which I believe is both written in Python and Python scriptable, although I have not had time to play with it: http://www.download.com/AthenaCL/3000-2170-10204823.html

I think there are also more routine libraries that just manipulate sound waves, etc.

What do you want to do with music?  (talk about an interesting data set!)

Eric P.



 

Eric Pederson
http://www.songzilla.blogspot.com
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
domainNot="@something.com"
domainIs=domainNot.replace("s","z")
ePrefix="".join([chr(ord(x)+1) for x in "do"])
mailMeAt=ePrefix+domainIs
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


From pwilkinson at videotron.ca  Fri Aug  6 16:18:02 2004
From: pwilkinson at videotron.ca (Peter Wilkinson)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 16:18:02 -0400
Subject: unicode to ascii converting
In-Reply-To: <4113DFF9.3090104@v.loewis.de>
References: <mailman.1296.1091813051.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4113DFF9.3090104@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040806155726.01b180e0@pop.videotron.ca>

thanks for the clear explanation.

I modified my code and now this works :)


Peter


At 03:46 PM 8/6/2004, Martin v. L?wis wrote:
>Peter Wilkinson wrote:
>>UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xff in position 0: 
>>ordinal not in range(128)
>
>That error actually says what happened: You have the byte with the numeric 
>value 0xff in the input, and the ASCII (American Standard
>Code for Information Interchange) converter cannot convert that
>into a Unicode character. This is because ASCII is a 7-bit character
>set, i.e. it goes from 0..127. 0xFF is 255, so it is out of range.
>
>Now, the line triggering this is
>
>   bz_file_out.write(line.encode(new_encode))
>
>and it invokes *encode*, not *decode*. Why would it give a decode error
>then?
>
>Because:
>
>   decode: take a byte string, return a Unicode string
>   encode: take a Unicode string, take a byte string
>
>So line should be a Unicode string, for .encode to be a meaningful thing
>to do. Unfortunately, Python supports .encode also for byte strings.
>If new_encode defines a character encoding, this does
>
>class str:
>   def encode(self, encoding):
>     unistr = unicode(self)
>     return unistr.encode(encoding)
>
>So it first tries to convert the current string into unicode, which
>uses the system default encoding, which is us-ascii. Hence the error.
>
>HTH,
>Martin
>--
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



From jbperez808 at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 18 09:24:36 2004
From: jbperez808 at yahoo.com (Jonathan P.)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 06:24:36 -0700
Subject: generating uuids / guids
References: <2nhnrfF13jq0U1@uni-berlin.de> <cf8nui$1uo$1@panix1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <f57664b9.0408180524.721a3421@posting.google.com>

aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) wrote in message news:<cf8nui$1uo$1 at panix1.panix.com>...

> Sure it would.  Best way to start is to create a stand-alone third-party
> library that implements the full DCE spec.  Once it has proven its
> utility and stability, send a note to python-dev suggesting that it be
> added.
> 
> Keep in mind that UUID generation is a somewhat complex and tricky
> business will likely require some kind of C library support (to get the
> MAC address, to check if there's already a system-level UUID/GUID
> generator present, to provide a "good" UUID if there's no network card,
> and so on).

Aren't there already uuid generation routines in both Linux and
Windows and wouldn't all that's needed be to wrap them in Python?


From jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu  Mon Aug  9 09:18:09 2004
From: jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu (John Hunter)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 08:18:09 -0500
Subject: Barcode Layout
In-Reply-To: <41121B77.8030405@cenix-bioscience.com> (Aaron Bingham's
	message of "Thu, 05 Aug 2004 13:35:19 +0200")
References: <4110CA81.6060706@cenix-bioscience.com>
	<m2ekmmakqk.fsf@mother.paradise.lost>
	<41121B77.8030405@cenix-bioscience.com>
Message-ID: <m2r7qgih66.fsf@mother.paradise.lost>

>>>>> "Aaron" == Aaron Bingham <bingham at cenix-bioscience.com> writes:

    Aaron> One thing about piddle that's a good fit for our needs is
    Aaron> that we can add methods to the canvases e.g. drawBarcode()
    Aaron> just by adding that method to our backends.  Is there any
    Aaron> easy way to add such high-level drawing commands in
    Aaron> matlibplot that are passed down to the backend level?

It is certainly possible - it is easy to access the figure canvas and
then call canvas.whatever().  Here is a brief example

    import matplotlib
    matplotlib.use('MyBackend')
    from matplotlib.matlab import *

    # issue some plot commands; these will render to your backend
    plot(blah, blah)

    # this is the MyBackend canvas, which derives from
    # matplotlib.backend_bases.FigureCanvas 
    canvas = get_current_fig_manager().canvas  
    canvas.my_special_method()  # do some custom rendering

Whether this is desirable is another question, because then the output
will be backend specific.  I would encourage you, where possible, to
design the barcodes using matplotlib primitives in a function or
class, and then any backend will render them the same.  

JDH




From martindemello at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 30 09:16:06 2004
From: martindemello at yahoo.com (Martin DeMello)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:16:06 GMT
Subject: Generator expressions v/s list comprehensions
References: <mahesh-525B07.12195528082004@individual.net>
	<1gj8y77.6qshr41q531veN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<mahesh-7E265C.14093428082004@individual.net>
	<u56Yc.247168$J06.136450@pd7tw2no>
	<8fSdnXPuTtTjv67cRVn-ug@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <qMFYc.272145$gE.129782@pd7tw3no>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
> A small correction:
> 
> Martin DeMello wrote:
> 
> > Here's a simple example
> > 
> > linecount = sum(1 for line in file)
> > linecount = sum([1 for line in file])
> > 
> > The former requires an in-memory list equal to the size of the file.
>        ^^^^^^
> I think you meant "the latter"...

Oops - I did indeed.

martin


From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Sun Aug  1 18:47:34 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 18:47:34 -0400
Subject: Microbenchmark: Summing over array of doubles
In-Reply-To: <Xns95389B9391F5Eduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
References: <4d642979.0407312049.7a8aecab@posting.google.com>
	<Xns95389B9391F5Eduncanrcpcouk@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011840050.21160-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>

On 1 Aug 2004, Duncan Booth wrote:

> I just had a brief look at the code you posted. Are you not concerned about 
> accuracy in any of your calculations? Summing a 10 million element array by 
> simply accumulating each element into a running total is guaranteed to give 
> a lousy result.

Lousy or not, I believe that's how numarray is implemented internally, so
at least all the benchmarks are the same.  If you want accuracy summing
that many numbers, you're going to have to do it in software (likely by
summing each mantissa bit individually and reconstructing the float
afterward), so it will be abysmally slow (obviously not what the OP
wants).



From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Aug  6 04:34:34 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 10:34:34 +0200
Subject: [Python-Dev] RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <cev7mj$lt6$1@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
	<mailman.1196.1091715567.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cev7mj$lt6$1@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>
Message-ID: <4113429a$0$26993$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

Vincent Wehren wrote:
> What surprised me a little is that on Win XP I could install 2.4a2 as a user
> with restricted rights over a previously administrator-installed
> for-all-users 2.4a1 standard-paths-used installation without
> warnings/problems - well, except for the obvious errors writing to the
> registry (and yes, I tried it intentionally ;). I am not entirely on board
> with the MSI's capabilities, but is there a way to tell the user (before the
> registry errors happen), that he/she may have insufficient rights to
> install?

I'm not quite sure I understand what you were doing, and in what way 
this has surprised you. It seems
- you made a per-machine installation as the administrator
- you then upgraded as a restricted user (not being asked whether this
   is going to be per-user or per-machine)

What *should* have happened is this:
- MSI finds that the new installation is per user, and the old
   installation is per-machine, so no upgrade is possible
- the UI then tells you that the target directory already exists,
   and wants confirmation
- if you proceed, it overwrites the existing files, creating a
   per-user installation (i.e. shortcuts in your profile, registry
   keys in HKEY_CURRENT_USER)

Are you saying that somebody else has happened instead?
If not, in what way did that surprise you?

Regards,
Martin


From lconrad at laymusic.org  Sat Aug  7 22:05:14 2004
From: lconrad at laymusic.org (Laura Conrad)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 22:05:14 -0400
Subject: Killing children
References: <87smb0w4ln.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
	<mailman.1297.1091814690.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<87d624vxt2.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
	<j9s8h0ppj5vdllif186m06iaeqrnm9o8lc@4ax.com>
	<87pt62vgk7.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
	<070820041850214353%JBrouwersAtProphICyDotCom@no.spam.net>
Message-ID: <87llgqv0yt.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>

>>>>> "Jean" == Jean Brouwers <JBrouwersAtProphICyDotCom at no.spam.net> writes:

    Jean> It looks like there is no space left to fork the subprocess and
    Jean> load/map the libraries the latter needs.

    Jean> Maybe there too many processes running already, simultaneously?

But if that was it, rebooting would have fixed it, wouldn't it?

-- 
Laura (mailto:lconrad at laymusic.org , http://www.laymusic.org/ )
(617) 661-8097	fax: (501) 641-5011
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139




From jonathon.blake at gmail.com  Mon Aug 30 23:08:24 2004
From: jonathon.blake at gmail.com (Jonathon Blake)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 20:08:24 -0700
Subject: Non-unicode strings & Python.
Message-ID: <c4797ebf04083020087089699c@mail.gmail.com>

All:

Question

Python is currently Unicode Compliant.

What happens when strings are read in from text files that were
created using  GB 2312-1980, or KPS 9566-2003, or other, equally
obscure code ranges?

The idea is to read text in the file format, and replace it with the
appropriate Unicode character,then write it out as a new text file. 
[Trivial to program, but incredibly time consuming to actually code]

xan

jonathon
-- 
Goto http://graphology.meetup.com for information about International
Graphology Meetup Day


From jerf at jerf.org  Sat Aug 28 16:47:19 2004
From: jerf at jerf.org (Jeremy Bowers)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 20:47:19 GMT
Subject: Generator expressions v/s list comprehensions
References: <mahesh-525B07.12195528082004@individual.net>
	<1gj8y77.6qshr41q531veN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<mahesh-7E265C.14093428082004@individual.net>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.28.16.47.21.305196@jerf.org>

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:09:34 -0600, Mahesh Padmanabhan wrote:
> Is returning a list really a limitation considering that lists can be 
> transformed quite easily?

http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/190465

It is trivial to generate huge lists and more people need them than you
might think. Not choking the VM system with multi-hundred megabytes in
allocations is a non-trivial performance advantage, especially as the
alternative may be not finishing at all.

You, by the way, have it backwards. It is trivial to convert a generator
into a list, without advantage loss. The opposite is not possible. That's
why Alex, elsewhere in the newsgroup, is saying list comprehensions might
someday be replaced by list(x for x in whatever), but you're never going
to see him say generator expressions are adequately captured by iter([x
for x in whatever]).


From python-url at phaseit.net  Tue Aug 31 16:08:07 2004
From: python-url at phaseit.net (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:08:07 GMT
Subject: Dr. Dobb's Python-URL! - weekly Python news and links (Aug 31)
Message-ID: <ch2lao$om8$1@lairds.us>

QOTW:  "Python is clearly on a huge evolutionary surge and conservative views
on the matter are definitely not winning out right now.  And the usual argument
(submit a patch!) doesn't really work when those who want to avoid many changes
try it... I've been *not* submitting a patch on lots of changes to Python, but
somehow it's never been accepted. ;-)"  Peter Hansen

"I've never seen a more complicated, verbose pile of hogwash than the
'deliverd by mailman' mailing list program."  Carol Carrot, perhaps
innocent of experience with Majordomo and Sendmail


    Michelle Levesque's PyWebOff annotates the Python-savvy Web frameworks.
    PEP 333 offers to rationalize a piece of them.
        http://pyre.third-bit.com/pyweb/index.html
	 http://groups.google.com/groups?th=7f19fe19b40c1be0

    How do generator expressions and list comprehensions compare?  Experts
    explain why the former are *better*--OK, better in several, although
    not all, ways
        http://groups.google.com/groups?frame=left&th=1d4aca073edaaa2f

    Jim Hugunin domesticates Python for the Microsoft weltanschaung.
        http://blogs.msdn.com/hugunin/
	http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1636906,00.asp

    How does Python regard file systems?  It's a timely topic, with
    pyfmf its most concrete expression.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?frame=left&th=c379db570ef96c43
        http://sourceforge.net/projects/pyfmf
	http://richard.jones.name/google-hacks/gmail-filesystem/gmail-filesystem.html

    High-profile Pythoneers Michael Sparks and Alex Martelli demonstrate
    interests beyond the perfection of the One True Language:
    petabyte-scale archiving, and marriage.
        http://www.pcw.co.uk/news/1157046
	http://www.aleax.it/mar.html
	http://bonanna.multiply.com/photos/album/1
    
    Uche Ogbuji reveals his habits for keeping current with Pythonia.
        http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/5490

    
========================================================================
Everything Python-related you want is probably one or two clicks away in
these pages:

    Python.org's Python Language Website is the traditional
    center of Pythonia
        http://www.python.org
    Notice especially the master FAQ
        http://www.python.org/doc/FAQ.html

    PythonWare complements the digest you're reading with the
    marvelous daily python url
         http://www.pythonware.com/daily  
    Mygale is a news-gathering webcrawler that specializes in (new)
    World-Wide Web articles related to Python.
         http://www.awaretek.com/nowak/mygale.html 
    While cosmetically similar, Mygale and the Daily Python-URL
    are utterly different in their technologies and generally in
    their results.

    comp.lang.python.announce announces new Python software.  Be
    sure to scan this newsgroup weekly.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python.announce

    Brett Cannon continues the marvelous tradition established by 
    Andrew Kuchling and Michael Hudson of intelligently summarizing
    action on the python-dev mailing list once every other week.
	http://www.python.org/dev/summary/

    The Python Package Index catalogues packages.
        http://www.python.org/pypi/

    The somewhat older Vaults of Parnassus ambitiously collects references
    to all sorts of Python resources.
        http://www.vex.net/~x/parnassus/   

    Much of Python's real work takes place on Special-Interest Group
    mailing lists
        http://www.python.org/sigs/

    The Python Business Forum "further[s] the interests of companies
    that base their business on ... Python."
	http://www.python-in-business.org

    Python Success Stories--from air-traffic control to on-line
    match-making--can inspire you or decision-makers to whom you're
    subject with a vision of what the language makes practical.
        http://www.pythonology.com/success

    The Python Software Foundation (PSF) has replaced the Python
    Consortium as an independent nexus of activity.  It has official
    responsibility for Python's development and maintenance. 
        http://www.python.org/psf/
    Among the ways you can support PSF is with a donation.
        http://www.python.org/psf/donate.html

    Cetus collects Python hyperlinks.
        http://www.cetus-links.org/oo_python.html

    Python FAQTS
        http://python.faqts.com/

    The Cookbook is a collaborative effort to capture useful and
    interesting recipes.
	http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python

    Among several Python-oriented RSS/RDF feeds available are
	http://www.python.org/channews.rdf
	http://bootleg-rss.g-blog.net/pythonware_com_daily.pcgi
	http://python.de/backend.php
    For more, see
	http://www.syndic8.com/feedlist.php?ShowMatch=python&ShowStatus=all
    The old Python "To-Do List" now lives principally in a
    SourceForge reincarnation.
        http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?atid=355470&group_id=5470&func=browse
        http://python.sourceforge.net/peps/pep-0042.html
     
    The online Python Journal is posted at pythonjournal.cognizor.com.
    editor at pythonjournal.com and editor at pythonjournal.cognizor.com
    welcome submission of material that helps people's understanding
    of Python use, and offer Web presentation of your work.

    *Py: the Journal of the Python Language*
        http://www.pyzine.com

    Archive probing tricks of the trade:
        http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python&num=100
        http://groups.google.com/groups?meta=site%3Dgroups%26group%3Dcomp.lang.python.*

Previous - (U)se the (R)esource, (L)uke! - messages are listed here:
  http://www.ddj.com/topics/pythonurl/         
  http://purl.org/thecliff/python/url.html (dormant)
or
  http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_q=+Python-URL!&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python


Suggestions/corrections for next week's posting are always welcome.
E-mail to <Python-URL at phaseit.net> should get through.

To receive a new issue of this posting in e-mail each Monday morning
(approximately), ask <claird at phaseit.net> to subscribe.  Mention
"Python-URL!".


-- The Python-URL! Team--

Dr. Dobb's Journal (http://www.ddj.com) is pleased to participate in and
sponsor the "Python-URL!" project.




From reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net  Fri Aug 13 06:19:25 2004
From: reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam at wolke7.net (Reinhold Birkenfeld)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 12:19:25 +0200
Subject: Why I love python.
In-Reply-To: <2o3iboF662nfU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<411C8CD9.32F39C2@mega-nerd.com> <2o3iboF662nfU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <2o3icnF662nfU2@uni-berlin.de>

Reinhold Birkenfeld wrote:
> Erik de Castro Lopo wrote:
>> Nick Patavalis wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>> <snip>
>> 
>>> Python needs drastic performance improvement if it is to scrap-off the
>>> "scripting language" stigma. The only way to get these improvements is
>>> making it possible for a python implementation to produce *efficient*
>>> *compiled* code. At the same time the dynamic-typing nature of the
>>> language is one of its most valuable characteristics. And this is one
>>> of the hardest problems when trying to write a decent python
>>> compiler. If you define a function like:
>>> 
>>>   def sum (a, b):
>>>     return a + b
>>> 
>>> How can the compiler know what code to produce? 
>> 
>> I know of at least one language which has solved this problem, Ocaml
>> 
>>     http://www.ocaml.org/
>> 
>> Its called type inferencing and since there is at least one working 
>> implementation, it can't be THAT hard.
> 
> Refer to the task "Typed Python" somewhere in the past if you want more
> information about Python and Type inferencing.

s/task/thread/

Reinhold

-- 
Wenn eine Linuxdistribution so wenig brauchbare Software wie Windows
mitbr?chte, w?re das bedauerlich.  Was bei Windows der Umfang eines
"kompletten Betriebssystems" ist, nennt man bei Linux eine Rescuedisk.
  -- David Kastrup in de.comp.os.unix.linux.misc


From tchur at optushome.com.au  Mon Aug 23 17:34:15 2004
From: tchur at optushome.com.au (Tim Churches)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 07:34:15 +1000
Subject: Python future performance and speed
In-Reply-To: <cgdb8m$1bs$1@panix2.panix.com>
References: <278de0e.0408211605.426e5129@posting.google.com>
	<278de0e.0408220636.3ee25f9d@posting.google.com>
	<mYGdnT5L6pqMJ7XcRVn-uA@powergate.ca>
	<278de0e.0408221450.324e8178@posting.google.com>
	<cgdb8m$1bs$1@panix2.panix.com>
Message-ID: <1093296855.1269.21.camel@emilio>

On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 03:58, Aahz wrote:

> That's true.  If that's what you'd said in the first place, nobody would
> have argued with you.  However, this is what you said:
> 
>     It seems there are quite a few projects aimed to improve Python's
>     speed and, therefore, eliminate its main limitation for mainstream
>     acceptance.

Hey, cut the boy/girl some slack. I suspect what s/he meant to say was:

     It seems there are quite a few projects aimed to improve Python's
     speed and, therefore, eliminate its main perceived limitation for
     mainstream acceptance.

I think you'll find it much harder to take issue with that statement. I
can only offer anecdotal evidence, but a typical conversation about our
Python-based projects goes like this (where the conversant typically
thinks that there are only two viable languages for any software project
these days: C# or Java):

a: "What language are you using?"
b: "Python"
a: "Um, isn't that too slow?"
b: "In general, no, and anyway there is a thing which is a bit like a
JIT compiler available, and for the really speed-critical parts, you can
use C modules very easily."
a: "Oh, OK, sound complex."
b: "No, it's not, really, and Python is really fast to write."
a: "But I have to write all those C modules."
b: "No, hardly ever, really."

And so on. The **perceived** speed of Python is indeed a barrier to its
acceptance, and indignant posts on this list won't do much to dispel
that perception. More published case studies and benchmarks of Python
versus whatever else when used for **complex**, real-life problems, not
artificially simple looping benchmarks, would help.

-- 

Tim C

PGP/GnuPG Key 1024D/EAF993D0 available from keyservers everywhere
or at http://members.optushome.com.au/tchur/pubkey.asc
Key fingerprint = 8C22 BF76 33BA B3B5 1D5B  EB37 7891 46A9 EAF9 93D0





From jepler at unpythonic.net  Thu Aug 26 22:26:43 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 21:26:43 -0500
Subject: What GCC version had <stdint.h> defined?
In-Reply-To: <412e70d3$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
References: <412e39d1$1@nntp0.pdx.net> <412E55A9.9070400@v.loewis.de>
	<412e70d3$1@nntp0.pdx.net>
Message-ID: <20040827022642.GB5794@unpythonic.net>

I glanced at configure.in and it checks for HAVE_UINTPTR_T, but not
HAVE_INTPTR_T.  If you want this define where it's available, add the
proper test to configure.in and regenerate configure.

I think the block would be something like this, a straightforward
search-and-replace of the block for HAVE_UINTPTR_T:
    AC_MSG_CHECKING(for intptr_t support)
    have_intptr_t=no
    AC_TRY_COMPILE([], [intptr_t x; x = (intptr_t)0;], [
      AC_DEFINE(HAVE_INTPTR_T, 1, [Define this if you have the type
    intptr_t.]) 
      have_intptr_t=yes
    ])
    AC_MSG_RESULT($have_intptr_t)
    if test "$have_intptr_t" = yes ; then
    AC_CHECK_SIZEOF(intptr_t, 4)
    fi
on the other hand, maybe this test is broken, because my system (Fedora
Core 2) configured with #undef HAVE_UINTPTR_T.

Maybe this article shows the way:
http://sources.redhat.com/ml/gdb-patches/2003-02/msg00687.html

    AC_MSG_CHECKING(for uintptr_t in C library)
    AC_CACHE_VAL(gdb_cv_have_uintptr_t,
    [AC_TRY_COMPILE([#include <stdint.h>],
           [uintptr_t foo = 0;
                return foo;],
                    gdb_cv_have_uintptr_t=yes,
                    gdb_cv_have_uintptr_t=no)])
    AC_MSG_RESULT($gdb_cv_have_uintptr_t)
    if test $gdb_cv_have_uintptr_t = yes; then
      AC_DEFINE(HAVE_UINTPTR_T)
    fi
... with appropriate renaming for Python.

I'm not sure why uintptr_t or intptr_t are all that useful, since the
spellings "unsigned *" and "int *" are going to work everywhere anyway.

Jeff
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From tzot at sil-tec.gr  Fri Aug 13 19:19:41 2004
From: tzot at sil-tec.gr (Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 02:19:41 +0300
Subject: !wtf ellipsis
References: <pan.2004.08.13.12.54.24.553466@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <voiqh0p0ce6ui77498vqdabcrl7asro33i@4ax.com>

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:54:24 +0200, rumours say that Jonas K?lker
<jonaskoelker at yahoo.com> might have written:

>what (the hell) is Ellipsis?
>what's it good for?

Peter provided a link answering your questions.  As a side note, I have
used Ellipsis instead of None as a very handy last item put in queues in
threaded programs (after all, "ellipsis" means "absence" or "lack" in
English :)  Thus I avoid creating dummy classes to mark the end of
data...
-- 
TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best,
"Tssss!" --Brad Pitt as Achilles in unprecedented Ancient Greek


From a.clarke11 at ntlworld.com  Wed Aug 18 13:54:21 2004
From: a.clarke11 at ntlworld.com (Tony Clarke)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 10:54:21 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <mailman.1859.1092833285.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <3353cd1e.0408180954.5a7362a8@posting.google.com>

"Ben Last" <ben at benlast.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1859.1092833285.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> Age 39 (though if I allowed for rounding it'd go up to 40!)
> ben
> 
>55, but active with it. I've never taken a programming course but
find python indispensable as well as enjoyable.

Ciao,
Tony 
(e-mail spammed, do not use)


From bjg at network-theory.co.uk  Mon Aug 23 12:20:30 2004
From: bjg at network-theory.co.uk (Brian Gough)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 17:20:30 +0100
Subject: Bug in string.lstrip?
References: <9EoWc.58$A8.18@edtnps89>
Message-ID: <877jrpsu5t.fsf@network-theory.co.uk>

Brian <brian at nospam.com> writes:

> Hello - has anyone else had trouble with string.lstrip stripping too 
> much? Here's what I get (Python 2.3.4):
> 
>  >>> import string
>  >>> string.lstrip("test/one/two/a.b.c", "test/one/")
> 'wo/a.b.c'

The second argument of lstrip has a different meaning from what you
think it does --- see the library documentation for the string module
for details.

-- 
Brian Gough

Network Theory Ltd,
Publishing the Python Manuals --- http://www.network-theory.co.uk/python/


From mediocre_person at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 21 21:40:38 2004
From: mediocre_person at hotmail.com (Nick Chackowsky)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 20:40:38 -0500
Subject: Mind.py
In-Reply-To: <4127CB0C.E4F49160@alcyone.com>
References: <41220b22@news.victoria.tc.ca> <4122796E.9652CCAE@alcyone.com>
	<dsLVc.8799$3O3.665@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>
	<4127CB0C.E4F49160@alcyone.com>
Message-ID: <4127f9b1$1_2@news.athenanews.com>

Erik Max Francis wrote:
> threeseas wrote:
> 
> 
>>Erik Max Francis wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Arthur T. Murray" wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Now, suppose that you wanted to write an AI in Python that would
>>>>implement your mind-model and allow it to grow, mutate, develop.
>>>>Here is one possible scenario.
>>>
>>>http://www.nothingisreal.com/mentifex
>>
>>its a good thing we all use our minds alike, huh?
>>
>>Oh wait, so why doesn't Arthur slander or libel himself?
> 
> 
> It's like an epic battle between Racter and Eliza!
> 
I was *wondering* why this sounded so familiar!


From calvin at ironfroggy.com  Mon Aug  2 16:07:49 2004
From: calvin at ironfroggy.com (Calvin Spealman)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 20:07:49 +0000
Subject: Q: distutils - name clash protection?
References: <410566a5.36996843@news.muenster.de>
	<200407270852.38652.heikowu@ceosg.de>
Message-ID: <1650138.HJVC0sZbrJ@ironfroggy.com>

I went ahead and looked at 262 as this thread caught my eye and just wanted
to give my two cents: Might be a good idea to not define the format but
only the API? Or, at least to specify that while you may count on the API
you can not count on exactly how it is implemented? Why duplicate the work
done by a system's native package management system(s) if they store the
information you need? Though it would definitely be a powerful tool to
access this information through a standardized Python API, even for only
Python Packages.



From paolo_veronelli at yahoo.it  Thu Aug  5 09:29:31 2004
From: paolo_veronelli at yahoo.it (paolo veronelli)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 15:29:31 +0200
Subject: RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au>
Message-ID: <opsb9g3hjudgjose@mail.yahoo.it>

On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 23:10:32 +1000, Anthony Baxter 
<anthony at interlink.com.au> wrote:


> On behalf of the Python development team and the Python community, I'm
> happy to announce the second alpha of Python 2.4.

> Enjoy the new release,

This is a bad joke after all the strong perplexities showed about its 
decorators solution.
I vote against the "@decorator before function" solution.

	Regards Paolino
-- 
....lotta dura  per la verdura



From cjw at sympatico.ca  Sun Aug 15 08:10:41 2004
From: cjw at sympatico.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 08:10:41 -0400
Subject: Subclassing numarray's arrays
In-Reply-To: <df3955c3.0408150111.1c11e05b@posting.google.com>
References: <df3955c3.0408140908.1b9bfb63@posting.google.com>
	<7pxTc.44307$Mq1.2286665@news20.bellglobal.com>
	<df3955c3.0408150111.1c11e05b@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <2pITc.1201$Tr.22124@news20.bellglobal.com>



Mizrandir wrote:
> First of all, thanks for helping.
> 
> 
>>Numarray wasn't designed with subclassing in mind, but there are
>>workarounds for most problems.
> 
> 
> On numarray's website there is a paper by the Numarray authors saying:
> "... The new approach allows arrays to be subclassed as well as ...",
> so I thought it should be something easy to do.
I don't remember that, but it is not as dificult as it looks.  Just try
out the code below, nothing could be simpler than the __init__ method
below.

The __str__ and __repr__ are just tools which can be used with any subclass.
> 
> Anyway, I hadn't read anything about numarraycore, is it explained
> anywhere. For example, I don't understand what the statement
> "self.__setstate__(arr.__getstate__())" does.
> 
NumArray creates a number of attributes to provide information about the 
shape of an array, the data type of its elements and to point to the 
memory buffer containing the binary data etc.  The expression above just 
transfers the values from arr (which is an instance of NumArray) to
self (which is an instance of NewClass).
> 
> 
>>You might try something like:
>>import numarray.numarraycore as _num
>>class NewClass(_num.NumArray):
>>   def __init__(self, n, a):
>>     ''' n provides the length of each dimension,
>>         a is the constant value to be plugged.
>>       '''
>>     arr= _num.array(sequence= n * n * [a], shape= (n, n))
>>     self.__setstate__(arr.__getstate__())
>>
>>   def __repr__(self):
>>     " Return printable representation of instance."
>>     className= self.__class__.__name__
>>     className= className.zfill(5).replace('0', ' ')
>>     arr= self.copy()
>>     arr.__class__= _num.NumArray
>>     rep= className + _num.NumArray.__repr__(arr)[5:]
>>     return rep
>>
>>   def __str__(self):
>>     " Return a pretty printed string of the instance."
>>     stri= self.copy()
>>     stri.__class__= _num.NumArray
>>     return _num.NumArray.__str__(stri)
>>
>>
>>if __name__ == '__main__':
>>   a= NewClass(2, 2)
>>   print a
>>   b= NewClass(3, 4)
>>   print `b`
> 
> 
> miz.
Please let me know if I can provide any further information.  numarray
is a good tool, but there is a  small hurdle if one wishes to subclass.

Colin W.



From shalabh at cafepy.com  Mon Aug 30 16:06:29 2004
From: shalabh at cafepy.com (Shalabh Chaturvedi)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:06:29 -0700
Subject: initializing mutable class attributes
In-Reply-To: <zhLYc.1878$JFK1.966@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
References: <J4zYc.102357$UTP.98636@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>	<1gjc8cs.sqvo1v1fhabdjN%aleaxit@yahoo.com><eTHYc.205$yqJ1.68@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>	<mailman.2624.1093889688.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<zhLYc.1878$JFK1.966@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
Message-ID: <ch0197$lug$1@sea.gmane.org>

Dan Perl wrote:
> "Shalabh Chaturvedi" <shalabh at cafepy.com> wrote
>>In Python you either have an __init__ or you don't. There is no 'default
>>constructor' - or if there is, it does nothing. Since attributes can be
>>dynamically added to an instance (not just in __init__ but in any
>>method), it follows that the standard practice is to initialize instance
>>members in __init__ as it is always called before any other instance
>>method. Now that there is one way to do a thing, Python avoids the
>>introduction of another way (unless it is notably more productive). That
>>would lead to a whole set of questions about 'which way is better?
>>__init__ or the other way?'.
> 
> 
> It is a subjective issue indeed.  But I'll restrict my question to a simpler
> question.  By analogy to C++ and Java, why is __init__ not implemented to
> automatically invoke the __init__(self) of the parent classes?  I'm
> beginning to see a reason here, which is that C++ and Java allow you to
> overload the constructor and have a default constructor at the same time as
> another constructor with arguments.  C++ and Java then force you to create a
> default constructor for a parent class, even if it's empty, if you create a
> non-default constructor for it and you subclass the parent class.
> 
> In contrast, Python does not allow method overloading and I'm OK with that.
> It's a simplification that allows using Python in ways that are not possible
> with C++ and Java.  So Python cannot force you to have a 'default' __init__
> and allow you to have 'non-default '__init__'s at the same time.  I am
> answering my own question here, but that's OK and it would not have happened
> without this discussion.

Yes, if the parent class __init__ accepts parameters, how can Python 
call it automatically? Should it be automatic in some cases and 
non-automatic in others? (Answer: no, it's too ambiguous). Also what if 
there are multiple parent classes? As the Quixote folks put it, in the 
face of ambiguity, refuse the temptation to guess. (Btw, Python's 
solution for multiple parent classes completely knocks the socks off C++ 
[1])

Cheers,
Shalabh

[1] http://www.python.org/2.2.3/descrintro.html#cooperation



From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 12:01:26 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: 5 Aug 2004 09:01:26 -0700
Subject: Confused about pep 318
References: <10h2ihgb8c6fi97@corp.supernews.com>
	<mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <d11dcfba.0408050801.27b5c69d@posting.google.com>

Skip Montanaro <skip at pobox.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1160.1091658179.5135.python-list at python.org>...
>
> the new syntax will be:
> 
>     @onexit
>     def func():
>         ...

Wow, this one really feels like it was slipped in while no one was
looking.  While I don't go to Python conferences, I do occasionally
check python-dev, and I totally missed whatever thread introduced the
@ syntax.  Scary...

Not a big fan of this syntax -- no intuitive reason why @ would mean
decorator -- but I presume this has already been complained about... 
Could someone direct me to the discussions about this?  I'd like to
see why it was the eventual favored syntax...

Steve


From foo at bar.net  Sun Aug 29 20:02:23 2004
From: foo at bar.net (Mac)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:02:23 -0700
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.29.03.59.02.719953@bar.net>
	<25u2j0d9bfulqljo6d2jbls2v52l1jk3sd@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.30.00.02.19.911327@bar.net>

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 06:58:30 +0000, Brian Inglis wrote:

> On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 20:59:08 -0700 in alt.folklore.computers, Mac
> <foo at bar.net> wrote:
> 
>>On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:56:06 -0700, Xah Lee wrote:
>>
>>> Larry Wall and Cults
>>> (Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
>>> 200012
> 
>>> Surely you have heard of Adolf Hitler
>>> and his atrocities of genocide? I must alert you, that a single person
>>> couldn't commit such a crime.
>>
>>Wow, Godwin's law invoked on the first post of the thread.
> 
> Not quite, no comparison was made; see: 
> http://groups.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=1991Oct22.140831.23313%40eff.org


Hmm. No explicit comparison was made, but since the post is a cautionary
tale (well, the post is a rambling mess, but I think it is trying to be a
cautionary tale) I think the comparison is understood.

But if the comparison must be explicit, as you seem to be saying, then I
have to concede the point.

Best regards,
Mac



From http  Wed Aug 25 02:34:25 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 23:34:25 -0700
Subject: with as J2 keyword (WAS: Re: J2 0-2-6 is available)
References: <mailman.2323.1093399282.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<vNSdnQtkP7x9arbcRVn-vQ@comcast.com>
	<mailman.2335.1093408605.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <7xr7pvsp3i.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Steven Bethard <steven.bethard at gmail.com> writes:
> @classmethod
> @funcattrs(author="Fran??ois Pinard")
> def foo(cls):
>     pass

How about double colon instead of @?

    ::classmethod
    ::funcattrs(author="Fran??ois Pinard")
    def foo(cls):
        pass


From mizrandir at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 14 13:08:55 2004
From: mizrandir at hotmail.com (Mizrandir)
Date: 14 Aug 2004 10:08:55 -0700
Subject: Subclassing numarray's arrays
Message-ID: <df3955c3.0408140908.1b9bfb63@posting.google.com>

I'd like to subclass numarray's array. I'd like to add some methods
and override others like __init__. I don't know how to do this and
haven't found help searching the manual or the web, can someone help?

For example imagine I just want to do something as simple as making a
subclass "NewClass" with the __init__ method overridden so that the
behaviour would be:

>>> a = NewClass(2)
>>> print a
[[2 2]
 [2 2]]

How could that be done?

Thanks in advance, miz.


From adijkstra at baandersconsultancy.nl  Mon Aug 16 03:23:40 2004
From: adijkstra at baandersconsultancy.nl (dijk)
Date: 16 Aug 2004 00:23:40 -0700
Subject: A email.cgi script
References: <cfni2i$j0f$1@news.hgc.com.hk>
Message-ID: <25cef294.0408152323.4c01f62a@posting.google.com>

wonder <a at b.com> wrote in message news:<cfni2i$j0f$1 at news.hgc.com.hk>...
> Hi,
> 
> I would like to write a python script that can be used in my website for 
>   other people whoever browse my webside to send an email using my smtp 
> server. Is there any sample python script can do that?
> Here is my python script, but it does not display To and From editbox in 
> the webpage for user type in their addresses:
> 
> #!/usr/bin/python
> 
> import smtplib, cgi, string
> 
> form = cgi.FieldStorage()
> 
> # Change the lines below to specify the TO and
> # FROM addresses
> 
> toaddr = 'dest at abc.com'
> fromaddr = ''
> 
> # Special form fields used by the email.cgi
> # script
> 
> ack_url = form.getvalue('ack_url',None)
> ack_text = form.getvalue('ack_text','Your submission was successful')
> subject = form.getvalue('subject', '')
> 
> # form fields to skip
> to_skip = ['ack_url', 'ack_text', 'subject', 'to']
> 
> # create the email headers
> 
> msg = "From: %s\r\nTo: %s\r\nSubject: %s\r\n\r\n" % (fromaddr, toaddr, 
> subject)

I'm using almost the same syntax, but I'm not using '\r\n', only '\n'.

Hope this helps..


From fumanchu at amor.org  Wed Aug 25 13:15:50 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:15:50 -0700
Subject: Capturing exceptions?
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E70@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Dfenestr8 wrote:
> What's the easiest way to capture the traceback from an exception, and
> write it to a file? Ideally, I'd like to be able to do something like:
> 
> >try:
> >	main()
> >except:
> >	write the traceback to a file

Have a look at the logging module:
http://docs.python.org/lib/module-logging.html. Loggers can be a bit
complex at first to set up; read the example in the docs
(http://docs.python.org/lib/node301.html) and go from there.

The upshot is they lead to extremely simple traceback logging:

try:
    shutdown()
except Exception:
    logger.exception("SHUTDOWN")

This snippet writes the full traceback to the file.

HTH,


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From lconrad at laymusic.org  Sat Aug  7 06:46:22 2004
From: lconrad at laymusic.org (Laura Conrad)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 06:46:22 -0400
Subject: Killing children
References: <87smb0w4ln.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
	<mailman.1297.1091814690.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<87d624vxt2.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
	<j9s8h0ppj5vdllif186m06iaeqrnm9o8lc@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <87y8krusxt.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>

>>>>> "Dennis" == Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> writes:

    Dennis> p = os.spawnl(os.P_NOWAIT, "/usr/bin/python", "python", "hobo.py",
    Dennis> '/dev/ttyS0', 5)

    Dennis> 	Pardon, I've not checked the details of os.spawnl()
    Dennis> (or others) but does it translate numeric arguments (the
    Dennis> 5) to a format usable for argv (if C) command line?

    Dennis> 	Maybe the spawned process is dying on its own before you can
    Dennis> kill it because it wants a quoted '5'?

That was it; thanks.

-- 
Laura (mailto:lconrad at laymusic.org , http://www.laymusic.org/ )
(617) 661-8097	fax: (501) 641-5011
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139




From mwh at python.net  Mon Aug 23 11:50:44 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:50:44 GMT
Subject: Fate of lambda, Functional Programming in Python...
References: <20040820163629.8DD4F1E401A@bag.python.org>
	<FB2F45DA-F2C8-11D8-97D4-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>
	<mailman.2076.1093031165.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<4126AAEC.7080304@zephyrfalcon.org>
Message-ID: <m3pt5hj1kb.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

Hans Nowak <hans at zephyrfalcon.org> writes:

> Anthony Baxter wrote:
> 
> > First point: lambda, map, filter and reduce won't go away before
> > Python 3.0, at the very least. And, to be honest, I suspect
> > map/filter/reduce are much more likely to die than lambda, as they
> > can nearly always be expressed more clearly as listcomps or
> > genexprs.
> 
> People often lump reduce in with the rest, but there's really no easy
> way to express a reduce with list comprehensions.  

You can replace it with a for loop though, and TBH I think the change
is usually an improvement.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  For their next act, they'll no doubt be buying a firewall 
  running under NT, which makes about as much sense as 
  building a prison out of meringue.                     -- -:Tanuki:-
               -- http://home.xnet.com/~raven/Sysadmin/ASR.Quotes.html


From javier_ruere at HotPOP.com  Fri Aug 20 21:37:47 2004
From: javier_ruere at HotPOP.com (Javier Ruere)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 22:37:47 -0300
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <41234CC0.7030701@bellsouth.net>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<41234CC0.7030701@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <4126A76B.1030700@HotPOP.com>

Lucas Raab wrote:

> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
> about....

I'm 23.

Javier


From python at elehack.net  Fri Aug  6 14:15:52 2004
From: python at elehack.net (Michael Ekstrand)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 13:15:52 -0500
Subject: compromise? keywords for static/class,
	move decorators to top of function
In-Reply-To: <Oo2dnUOZI8VmWI7cRVn-sA@comcast.com>
References: <Oo2dnUOZI8VmWI7cRVn-sA@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <200408061315.53194.python@elehack.net>

On Friday 06 August 2004 12:54, Doug Holton wrote:
> I propose (and others have) that built-in features have keyword
> support, like static and class methods.  Also, I believe it is more
> readable if decorators, especially longer ones, are moved to the top
> of the function body, just like docstrings, instead of coming before
> the function is even declared.  Whether you use @ or [] is still
> open.
>
> def classmethod getratio (arg1, arg2):
>      @accepts(int,int)
>      @returns(float)
>      ...

Ooh... I like, I like...

This seems to be the most reasonable, readable proposition I've seen so 
far. And I'd favor @ for this - it makes it clear that this is 
"something different".

-Michael


From joeschey at earthlink.net  Thu Aug 26 14:37:31 2004
From: joeschey at earthlink.net (Joe S)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 11:37:31 -0700
Subject: Dynamic command on Menu items?
References: <2e3fe5bf.0408251154.74bc6243@posting.google.com>
	<cgj05d$7ud$01$2@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <2e3fe5bf.0408261037.5d8a2432@posting.google.com>

"Diez B. Roggisch" <deetsNOSPAM at web.de> wrote in message news:<cgj05d$7ud$01$2 at news.t-online.com>...
> You could do it like this (untested):
> 
> class FunClosure:
>     def __init__(self, f, args):
>         self.f = f
>         self.args = args
>     def __call__(self):
>         self.f(self.args)
> 
> M.menu.add_command(label=l, command=FunClosure(f, [p]))


Sorry...no work. It says str object is not callable.

I would def. appreciate any refinement. If not, thanks anyway for trying.


Joe


From hodges7 at cox.net  Wed Aug 18 22:14:17 2004
From: hodges7 at cox.net (Bill Hodges)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 21:14:17 -0500
Subject: undefined symbol: PyUnicodeUCS4_FromUnicode
In-Reply-To: <41204CCE.2090700@v.loewis.de>
References: <MgVSc.316$ni.147@okepread01>
	<411c5b24$0$26992$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>
	<bQPTc.3470$ni.3263@okepread01> <41204CCE.2090700@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <a1UUc.7910$ni.5694@okepread01>

Martin,
Your diagnosis was correct.
When I removed the python stuff in /usr
and rebuilt everything in /usr/local
I finally got DRT to run.

Thank you.

Bill
Martin v. L?wis wrote:
> Bill Hodges wrote:
> 
>> Your dianosis is correct.
>> I compiled tcl to include UCS4 and
>> Python then compiled to UCS4
>> (nm revealed the difference).
> 
> 
> Are you sure about that? Are you absolutely certain that
> the installed Python (/usr/local/bin/python2.3) is UCS-4?
> It appears to me that it is likely UCS-2.
> 
>> PyQt compiled fine, However, it
>> still errors out the same way.
>> For some reason PyQt needs to be told to
>> include the UCS4 stuff in qt.so na d
>> I cannot find the key.
> 
> 
> Do you happen to have Python header files both in /usr/include
> and /usr/local/include? Make sure PyQt is using the ones in
> /usr/local/include, if you plan to use PyQt with that Python
> installation.
> 
> Regards,
> Martin


From cedmunds at spamless.rochester.rr.com  Tue Aug 24 22:30:43 2004
From: cedmunds at spamless.rochester.rr.com (Cy Edmunds)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 02:30:43 GMT
Subject: python raw strings?
References: <412bc766$1@news.unimelb.edu.au>
Message-ID: <nRSWc.170587$bp1.149518@twister.nyroc.rr.com>

"Maurice LING" <mauriceling at acm.org> wrote in message
news:412bc766$1 at news.unimelb.edu.au...
> I'm trying to toy around with PLY (python lex-yacc) by David Beazley
> from University of Chicago and realized that the lex module uses python
> raw strings. What are python raw strings and how are they different from
> regular strings? I've tried to look up in the python documentation but
> it just vaguely brushes through by saying that python raw strings are
> prefixed with "r" or "R".
>
> In PLY, "+" is "r'\+'" but "-" is "r'-'", why is there an extra "\" in
> "+"? When to use the extra "\" and when not?
>
> Can someone point me in the correct direction?
>
> Thanks
> Maurice

http://docs.python.org/lib/module-re.html

-- 
Cy
http://home.rochester.rr.com/cyhome/




From sharidas at zeomega.com  Fri Aug 13 02:40:44 2004
From: sharidas at zeomega.com (Satchidanand Haridas)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 12:10:44 +0530
Subject: while and if
In-Reply-To: <78e89de7f43dc55408bc9891b77d06cc@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>
References: <e0197c1847cb38af22dceeb8aaa6e679@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>	<mailman.1581.1092372820.5135.python-list@python.org>	<mailman.1582.1092375949.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<78e89de7f43dc55408bc9891b77d06cc@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>
Message-ID: <411C626C.4070208@zeomega.com>


Calvin79 wrote:

>Hi Satchit,
>
>Thankyou for what you've already done, but would you mind if I ask one
>last thing and then I'll leave you alone?
>
>In it's present form the output is fine, but I think I might like to have
>it output in this format;['c', 'b', 'a', 'd']. It is probably the most
>basic of questions to ask, but heck I've only been at this python stuff a
>week... : )  
>
>Calvin
>
>  
>
Hi,

Change the 'print' line to append to a list:

<code>

import random

things = xrange(int(raw_input("choose no of things (1-8)? ")))

state = [None,None]

l = []                                                      # new line

for x in things:
    tmp = random.choice('abcd')
    print state
    while tmp in state[0:2]:
        tmp = random.choice('abcd')
    print "choice ",x+1," is ", tmp        
    l.append(tmp)                                    # new line
    state[x%2] = tmp

print l                                                     # new line

</code>

----
Satchidanand Haridas (sharidas at zeomega dot com)

ZeOmega (www.zeomega.com)
Open  Minds' Open Solutions

#20,Rajalakshmi Plaza,
South End Road,
Basavanagudi,
Bangalore-560 004, India





From joshway_without_spam at myway.com  Thu Aug 19 09:00:25 2004
From: joshway_without_spam at myway.com (JCM)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:00:25 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Embedding Python in Python
References: <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570@slash_dev_slash_random.org>
	<7xu0v0l2be.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<cg09ne$ma7$1@fred.mathworks.com>
	<7x3c2kkzn8.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<cg0bjf$78b$1@fred.mathworks.com>
	<7x7jrwt8gc.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <cg2899$fe1$1@fred.mathworks.com>

Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx at nospam.invalid> wrote:
...
>> > Hint: 
>> >   e = vars()['__builtins__'].eval
>> >   print e('2+2')
>> 
>> I don't think it's as difficult as you think.  Your snippet of code
>> would be rejected by the rules I suggested.  You'd also want to
>> prohibit other builtins like compile, execfile, input, reload, vars, etc.

> I don't see how.  Your rules were to disallow:

>   1) exec statements.  My example doesn't use it.

>   2) eval identifier.  My example uses eval as an attribute and not an
>      identifier.  You can eliminate the use of eval as an attribute with
>        e = getattr(vars()('__builtins__'), 'ev'+'al').
>      Now not even the string 'eval' appears in one piece.

You've used eval an as identifier (at least by the terminology to
which I'm accustomed), just not as a variable.

>   3) identifiers like __this__.  My example doesn't use any.  It
>      uses a constant string of that form, not an identifier.  The
>      string could be computed instead, like the eval example above.
>   4) import statements.  My example doesn't use them.

> Conclusion, my example gets past your suggested rules.  I also
> didn't use compile, execfile, input, or reload.  I did use vars but
> there are probably other ways to do the same thing.  You can't take
> something full of holes and start plugging holes until you think you
> found them all.  You have to start with something that has no holes.

It's fine to look at it that way.  Start with a subset of Python that
you know to be safe, for example only integer literal expressions.
Keep adding more safe features until you're satisfied with the
expressiveness of your subset.

> The Python crowd has been through this many times already; do some
> searches for rexec/Bastion security.

I did do a [quick] search, and saw a lot of articles about how rexec
and Bastion were insecure; but I didn't find any arguments about how
it's (too) difficult to come up with a safe subset of Python, for some
definition of "safe".


From jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu  Wed Aug 25 10:01:37 2004
From: jdhunter at ace.bsd.uchicago.edu (John Hunter)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:01:37 -0500
Subject: building 2.1 with LFS
In-Reply-To: <m24qmrtmf0.fsf@mother.paradise.lost> (John Hunter's message of
	"Wed, 25 Aug 2004 07:46:59 -0500")
References: <m24qmrtmf0.fsf@mother.paradise.lost>
Message-ID: <m2d61fpb9a.fsf@mother.paradise.lost>

>>>>> "John" == John Hunter <jdhunter at nitace.bsd.uchicago.edu> writes:

    John> I am trying to build python2.1 with alrge file support.  I
    John> ran configure in a clean build tree and then edited the
    John> makefile

    John> # Compiler options OPT= -ggdb -O3 -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes
    John> -D_LARGEFILE_SOURCE -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 #OPT= -g -O2
    John> -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes DEFS= -DHAVE_CONFIG_H CFLAGS=
    John> $(OPT) -I. -I$(srcdir)/Include $(DEFS)


    John> And did a make; make install

Solved; this incantation worked...

  982  CFLAGS='-D_LARGEFILE64_SOURCE -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64' OPT="-g -O2 $CFLAGS"         ./configure
  983  make
  984  make install

JDH


From AntiVir at yalta.us  Sun Aug 15 13:27:30 2004
From: AntiVir at yalta.us (AntiVir at yalta.us)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 20:27:30 +0300
Subject: AntiVir ALERT [mail from: offered@www.2ksportsbet.com]
Message-ID: <200408151727.i7FHRUcp028246@yalta.us>

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????????? ????????? ????? ? ??????????????, ??????? ????????? ????? ??????!

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        ???????? ????????
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email: support at yalta.us


Mail-Info:
--8<--
 From: offered at www.2ksportsbet.com
 To: python-list at python.org
 Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 17:25:42 +0300
 Subject: Returned mail: see transcript for details
--8<--

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--
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Copyright (C) 1994-2003 by H+BEDV Datentechnik GmbH. All rights reserved.
For more information see http://www.antivir.de/ or http://www.hbedv.com/


From jbenson at lowell.edu  Wed Aug 18 17:43:46 2004
From: jbenson at lowell.edu (Jim Benson)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:43:46 -0700 (MST)
Subject: introspection?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408181411300.14361-100000@sextans.mesa.lowellnet>


newbie question here:

How does one get the class and method name from within
a method? i.e here i have obviously hardcoded the class 
and method name:

class JJTest:

    def methodA(self):

        print 'ERROR: in JJTest.methodA'

>>> from jjtest import JJTest
>>> jj = JJTest()
>>> jj.methodA()
ERROR: in JJTest.methodA
>>>

The Java way of doing this would be something like:

System.out.println("ERROR in: " + this.getClass().getName());

I suspect that there are attributes that one can use to do 
something similar in Python. 

If any of you Python experts would let me know how to do this in
Python, i would appreciate it.

Thanks,

Jim





From npat at efault.net  Fri Aug 13 14:23:21 2004
From: npat at efault.net (Nick Patavalis)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 18:23:21 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Why I love python.
References: <ce6aaec0.0408121605.1f85ea25@posting.google.com>
	<slrncho5aq.pfh.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<mailman.1583.1092378965.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnchpf2s.7ld.npat@gray.efault.net>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-A837CD.10100113082004@localhost>
Message-ID: <slrnchq1op.am7.npat@gray.efault.net>

On 2004-08-13, Michael J. Fromberger 
<Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU> wrote:
>
> Why is it important to write an entire program in a single language 
> (e.g., Python), versus using a hybrid approach?  If you can use Python 
> at all, that means your platform already has good support for a C 
> compiler, so there is no reason not to use C extensions if you really 
> need performance.
>

If this is the best thing possible then yes, this is a solution. But
you see, I believe that even for these performance-sensitive parts,
Python has a lot to offer in terms of expressive power. The question
is: is it possible to make a Python environment fast-enough to be able
to produce code as efficient as a C compiler? I believe the answer is
yes, and we shouldn't be satisfied with the approach "do these glue
things in Python, and for the computationally expensive ones, well
code them in C".

/npat



From jepler at unpythonic.net  Sun Aug 22 10:10:20 2004
From: jepler at unpythonic.net (Jeff Epler)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:10:20 -0500
Subject: clear content of 'printed'
In-Reply-To: <cga6gd$17qo$1@news.uni-koblenz.de>
References: <cga6gd$17qo$1@news.uni-koblenz.de>
Message-ID: <20040822141019.GB2348@unpythonic.net>

What is "printed" (and why do you think that 'print "some text"' will
modify it)?  What is "container", that it has a "writeToFile" method?  
You must be using some non-standard module you didn't mention.

If I understand what you're asking for, I might write something like
    for i, id in enumerate(myList):
        f = open(id, "w")
        print >>f, "some text"
(Enumerate is a new built-in function in Python 2.3.  The "print >>"
syntax has been available since 2.1 or so)

Jeff
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From reply2group at ndbbm.net  Tue Aug 31 15:32:50 2004
From: reply2group at ndbbm.net (Active8)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 15:32:50 -0400
Subject: compile to exe?
Message-ID: <tji3w0iau390.dlg@news.individual.net>

I just moticed that wxGlade 3.1.1 comes with a windows installer and
runs as an exe with a python22.dll and a bunch of .pyd files (pythod
dlls?) and wxGlade 3.4 is all python files.

I might be getting in deep here, but how do you turn .py files into
.pyds and .exes?

Any links or references to which doc and section would be
appreciated.
-- 
Best Regards,
Mike


From miki.tebeka at zoran.com  Mon Aug 30 17:23:07 2004
From: miki.tebeka at zoran.com (Miki Tebeka)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:23:07 +0200
Subject: use win32 COM in python
In-Reply-To: <cguo6j$j67$1@news.yaako.com>
References: <cguo6j$j67$1@news.yaako.com>
Message-ID: <20040830212307.GH680@zoran.com>

Hello Lin,

>   I have a C++ implemented COM server that give out a method like: int
> read(unsigned char* buf, int lenth), How can I use this method from python?
> what is the signature?
> or anyone can tell me how should I design the COM interface so I can use
> python to read a chunk of bytes from a C++ implemented COM server.
You can avoid COM and either get this server as a Python module using
SWIG/Boost.Python/Pyrex ...

You can also use a regular DLL using ctypes package.

However if you *must* use COM then make sure your server has a Dispatch
interface and just use win32com.client.Dispatch to create and use it.

Bye.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Miki Tebeka <miki.tebeka at zoran.com>
http://tebeka.spymac.net
The only difference between children and adults is the price of the toys


From jarrodhroberson at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 15 00:22:34 2004
From: jarrodhroberson at yahoo.com (Y2KYZFR1)
Date: 14 Aug 2004 21:22:34 -0700
Subject: Python indentation deters newbies?
References: <3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <c718a6cf.0408142022.14cd8daa@posting.google.com>

beliavsky at aol.com wrote in message news:<3064b51d.0408130615.3fc4a760 at posting.google.com>...
> One of the most commmon reasons programmers cite for not trying Python
> is that indentation determines the program flow -- they think its
> weird. I think programmers who actually try Python adapt quickly and
> do not find the indentation rules to be a problem.
> 
> I wonder if there is a way to remove this initial barrier. Could an
> alternate source form be defined, so that there are matching if-endif
> and for-next constructs instead of significant indentation? The
> alternate source form and the current form would result in exactly the
> same .pyc file.
> 
> I'm not saying that Python's use of indentation is bad, just that it
> stops many programmers from trying it.

then it is there loss that they are so stupid and closed minded to not
try something a better way

but don't go and make something crappy because of crappy people


From martin at v.loewis.de  Sun Aug 22 17:40:24 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 23:40:24 +0200
Subject: Proposal: require 7-bit source str's
In-Reply-To: <HBF.20040822gmmp@bombur.uio.no>
References: <HBF.20040805p736@bombur.uio.no>
	<ceu67e$ioa$00$1@news.t-online.com>
	<HBF.20040805npas@bombur.uio.no>
	<cev7rn$me7$01$1@news.t-online.com>
	<HBF.20040806aoi5@bombur.uio.no>
	<cf7rhs$kqh$04$1@news.t-online.com>
	<HBF.20040822l1c0@bombur.uio.no> <412907C8.1090104@v.loewis.de>
	<HBF.20040822gmmp@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <412912C8.8080707@v.loewis.de>

Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:
>>I agree with many things you said, but this example is bogus. If I
>>(as a German) use ns_4551-1, sorting is simple - and incorrect, because,
>>as you say, ? sorts with o in my language - yet the simple sorting of
>>ns_4551-1 doesn't. So sorting is *not* simple with ns_4551-1.

Ah, I missed the point that there is no ? in ns_4551-1. If so, then the
best way to represent the characters is to replace ? with "oe" and ?
with "ae"; replacing them merely with "o" and "a" would be considered
inadequat.

> And if I want to get both right, I need a sort_name field which is
> distinct from the display_name field.  There you would be lowis, while
> the Swede T?rnquist would be t?rnquist.  Or maybe lowis\tl?wis or
> something; a kind of private implementation of strxfrm().

But you can have a strxfrm for Unicode as well! There is nothing
inherent in Unicode that prevents using the same approach.

Of course, the question always is what result you *want*: If you
have text that contains simultaneously Latin and Greek characters,
how would you like to collate it? Neither the German or Greek
collation rules are likely to help, as they don't consider the issue
of additional alphabets. If possible, you should assign a language
tag to each entry, and then sort first by language, then according
to the language's collation rules.

Regards,
Martin


From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Tue Aug 17 15:33:01 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 12:33:01 -0700
Subject: python packages cross references
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1780.1092730011.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1780.1092730011.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10i4n9vd5k5hr73@corp.supernews.com>

Roman Yakovenko wrote:

>May be I was not clear, but from module in package A I want to user functionality
>defined in module of package Utils
>
>"...
>When packages are structured into subpackage (as with the Sound package in the example), there's no shortcut to refer to submodules of sibling packages - the full name of the subpackage must be used. For example, if the module Sound.Filters.vocoder needs to use the echo module in the Sound.Effects package, it can use from Sound.Effects import echo. 
>...
>"
>It means that I should have prj in sys.path. ( Am I wrong here? ).
>
>So I ask is there is elegant solution?
>  
>

Uh, whatever you'd do to get prj into your sys.path in order to run your 
program to begin with?  Actually, technically speaking, you don't need 
prj in sys.path, you only need the directory that prj is under in your 
sys.path -- if Python can see the prj directory, it'll look inside it 
for an __init__.py, and finding that will consider it a valid package.  
In recent versions (certainly 2.2+) of Python, I believe that you 
*should* be able to simply put prj under %python-lib%/site-packages 
(wherever that may be located on your particular installation), which is 
already in sys.path and is intended for that very purpose.

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Fri Aug 20 19:31:41 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:31:41 -0700
Subject: decorator J4 - any objections?
In-Reply-To: <H5ydnQFIZezZH7vcRVn-iQ@comcast.com>
References: <cab22418.0408201006.16f163b2@posting.google.com>
	<H5ydnQFIZezZH7vcRVn-iQ@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <10id2djglri8o15@corp.supernews.com>

Larry Bates wrote:

>If docstring can be a special case of a triple quoted
>string, I don't see why decorators couldn't be a special
>case of a dictionary.
>[...]
>
>I'm sure there is a reason, but it would seem to make
>"Python"-sense to me.  It would then be very extensible
>for the meta-data that everyone seems to also want decorators
>to support.
>  
>

The biggest reason that I'm aware of is that GvR has declared that he 
doesn't think decorators belong inside a function def, and has even been 
quoted as having professed a regret for having put docstrings there.  
(Personally, I think that having all of this stuff immediately inside 
the function def makes great sense, but I'm not a world-famous language 
designer, so what do I know? ;) )

In fact, the biggest problem that I can see with the J4 syntax is its 
close similarity to all of the decorator-inside-def variations.  Since 
GvR has spoken strongly against putting decorators in that location, it 
seems to me to be a waste of effort to advocate for that.  Now, perhaps 
having that outdented keyword to indicate the function-body start 
*might* make a difference with him...  but I would expect that it won't.

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From mwh at python.net  Thu Aug  5 08:21:36 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 12:21:36 GMT
Subject: Decorator syntax (was Re: PEP 318 - PyFIT comments)
References: <mailman.1162.1091660561.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnch2rs1.6ei.ressler@cheetah.jpl.nasa.gov>
	<1646998998.20040804190026@MailBlocks.com>
	<mailman.1168.1091667628.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<10h34ivio5s2c21@news.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <m3pt65g4hb.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

"John Roth" <newsgroups at jhrothjr.com> writes:

> "Bruce Eckel" <BruceEckel at MailBlocks.com> wrote in message
> news:mailman.1168.1091667628.5135.python-list at python.org...
> > I'll weigh in a little on this one.
> >
> > This is very similar to attributes/metadata in Java J2SE 5 and in C#.
> > The thing is, metadata is a little bit weird; it's intentionally
> > outside of the domain of the 'normal' programming language, because it
> > expresses things that you can't or shouldn't within the normal
> > programming language. 

Except, of course, this is Python so there isn't any such thing as
metadata, really.  Objects all the way down.

> > So you _do_ need an escape mechanism. And it also takes a little
> > bit of getting used to; it's orthogonal to what you normally think
> > of as a language feature. But the potential for metadata features,
> > at least in Java, is very powerful.
> 
> I'd be a lot happier if it was, in fact, a general metadata
> facility. Unfortunately, it only seems to work on functions
> (methods), and for what I'm working on I need metadata for
> properties and fields as well, that is, any identifier that you can
> bind an object to.

Well, that would be because that's impossible :-) Where would you
attach the data in:

class C(object):
    @funky
    i = 0

?

You can't attach it to 'i' -- that's just a string.  '0' is just an
integer.  The class doesn't exist at the time the body is executed.

What you can do (today) of course is stuff like:

class C(object):
    i = MagicProperty(int, default=0)

or something -- which obviously leaves ample space for metadata in the
argument list -- but that can be painful, I grant.

What kind of metadata do you want?

(I have to admit I read your first post on this thread a bit like
"this hammer doesn't do a very good job of screwing in screws" :-)

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  It is time-consuming to produce high-quality software. However,
  that should not alone be a reason to give up the high standards
  of Python development.              -- Martin von Loewis, python-dev


From tchur at optushome.com.au  Wed Aug  4 16:22:14 2004
From: tchur at optushome.com.au (Tim Churches)
Date: 05 Aug 2004 06:22:14 +1000
Subject: Finding all time periods for a given interval within a date
	range
In-Reply-To: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022DD9@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022DD9@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <1091650934.1235.6.camel@emilio>

On Thu, 2004-08-05 at 03:09, Robert Brewer wrote:
> Look at my 'recur' module and see if it fits your requirements:
> 
> http://www.aminus.org/rbre/python/index.html
> 
> Start with the Recurrence class and play with it--then dig deeper if you
> need to.

Robert,

How is the above code licensed?

-- 

Tim C

PGP/GnuPG Key 1024D/EAF993D0 available from keyservers everywhere
or at http://members.optushome.com.au/tchur/pubkey.asc
Key fingerprint = 8C22 BF76 33BA B3B5 1D5B  EB37 7891 46A9 EAF9 93D0





From squirrel at WPI.EDU  Tue Aug  3 16:42:36 2004
From: squirrel at WPI.EDU (Christopher T King)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 16:42:36 -0400
Subject: simple Thread question
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1097.1091564671.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <b8001e9f.0408031151.4f617c6@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408031557360.11453-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>
	<mailman.1097.1091564671.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408031631330.12292-100000@ccc6.wpi.edu>

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004, Dave Brueck wrote:

> Er... you're jumping the gun a bit - no need to scare the OP away from 
> threads with all these details about the GIL when the problem was simply 
> that the threads were never started.
> 
> [snip]
> > Because of the former property, another thing you can try is 
> > inserting a time.sleep(.1) inside of each loop
> 
> Uh, did you read his code before responding? (hint: he's already doing 
> that) :)

Wow, I really screwed that up :P I really should stop posting to this list
in a hurry.  My eyes glanced at the short loop, the thread-starting code
(didn't notice the .run() instead of .start()), and the output, and
concluded "GIL funkiness" (something I've been hit with before).

FWIW, replacing .run() with .start() (and dropping name from .run()) and 
dropping the sleep() produces the same symptoms the OP was showing.



From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 17 19:36:30 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:36:30 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1829.1092785390.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <20040817181725194-0400@braeburn.themorgue.org>
	<mailman.1829.1092785390.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <65adnQrUKILiC7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>

Paul Morrow wrote:

> Kevin Smith wrote:
>> def classmethod foo(x, y, z):
>>     pass
>>
>> That's it.  One "decorator" that is a callable object that takes a 
>> method as it's only argument.  No expressions, lists, tuples, etc.  
>> Just one callable object.  
> 
> Nope.  That's using static declarations.  We're a dynamically typed 
> language as much as possible.  Isn't there something that doesn't 
> require any additional grammar words to identify classmethods and 
> staticmethods?  

It looks to me as though Kevin is not suggesting keywords, but
callables.  In other words he would consider this valid, provided
my_own_decorator was a callable.

   def my_own_decorator foo(x, y, z):
      pass


-Peter


From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 02:16:48 2004
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 06:16:48 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: function taking scalar or list argument
References: <412a2bce$1_1@127.0.0.1>
	<9ZCdnT9EuudK3bfcRVn-tA@comcast.com><10il11q5uqfg4ad@corp.supernews.com>
	<loom.20040824T052140-517@post.gmane.org>
	<cgekmc$ok6$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <loom.20040824T081004-147@post.gmane.org>

Terry Reedy <tjreedy <at> udel.edu> writes:
> In 2.2.1:
> >>> hasattr([1,2,3], '__iter__')
> 0
> so this does not seem to work as you seem to expect.  hasattr(iter(x),
> '__iter__') will.

Yeah, I thought there was probably some special case I was missing there.  The 
problem with hasattr(iter(x), '__iter__') is that iter(x) can throw an 
exception if the object is not iterable:

>>> iter(1)
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<interactive input>", line 1, in ?
TypeError: iteration over non-sequence

So if you call iter(x) in the test, and x is a number, you end up having to 
try and catch the exception just like in the original solution.

Do you know at what version hasattr(x, '__iter__') started working?  In 2.4a2:
>>> hasattr([1,2,3], '__iter__')
True

Steve




From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug  6 16:51:53 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 16:51:53 -0400
Subject: Killing children
In-Reply-To: <87d624vxt2.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
References: <87smb0w4ln.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
	<mailman.1297.1091814690.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<87d624vxt2.fsf@debian.laymusic.org>
Message-ID: <2eidnefxXqX3co7cRVn-tA@powergate.ca>

Laura Conrad wrote:

> p = os.spawnl(os.P_NOWAIT, "/usr/bin/python", "python", "hobo.py", '/dev/ttyS0', 5)
> print p
> 
> os.system("ps")
> time.sleep(60)
> os.system("kill %d" % p)

This suggests that you believe the return value from os.spawnl() is
actually the PID.  Unfortunately that doesn't appear to be the case
on Windows.  See the note in the doc-string for my code sample from
the previous post (on Windows spawn* actually returns a "handle",
not the PID itself, and apparently turning the one into the other
is non-trivial).

-Peter


From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Aug  4 04:41:46 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 10:41:46 +0200
Subject: how to do proper subclassing?
References: <mailman.1095.1091552353.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ceojqr$9sk$01$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <ceq7ga$tb2$04$1@news.t-online.com>

Jonas Koelker wrote:

> I'm new to this list (/me welcomes himself).

Jonas, I suggest that you post follow-ups vaguely on topic on c.l.py. That
gives you the chance for answers that I (for example) don't know about or
care to give as well as corrections or a second opinion.

[Jonas via email]

> > >>> class Perm(list):
> >
> > ...     def __init__(self, n):
> > ...             list.__init__(self, range(n))
> > ...     def __call__(self, i, k):
> > ...             self[i], self[k] = self[k], self[i]
> > ...             return self
> > ...
> >
> > >>> p = Perm(5)
> > >>> p
> >
> > [0, 1, 2, 3, 4]
> >
> > >>> p(0,4)(2,4)(0,1)(2,3)(1,2)
> >
> > [1, 3, 4, 0, 2]
> >
> > >>> p[1:2]
> >
> > [3]
> >
> > >>> p[1:3]
> >
> > [3, 4]
>
> thanks, this looks about right (slaps himself on the
> forehead - "you DO know how init works!")... :]
>
> also, p(0,4)(2,4)(0,1)(2,3)(1,2) looks really neat and
> math'ish :)
>
> > Just in case you need it later, there is a special
> > method for every operator, e. g. __getitem__() for
> >obj[sliceOrIndex], __mul__() for multiplication etc.
>
> Yeah, I knew that. I might make __int__() convert the
> perm to a ranking number in linear time. See

My mentioning of special methods doesn't mean that I think they are always
the best choice. I would prefer both p.rank() and rank(p) over int(p).

> http://www.cs.uvic.ca/~ruskey/Publications/RankPerm.html
>
> .. don't worry, I can implement it myself.

Don't worry, I won't :-)

> btw, if I want to set the "list part" of the perm, how
> do I do that?

p[:] =  [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
p[:2] = p[1], p[0]
p[2] = [99]

If you want to ensure that the permutation is still valid after assignment
you have to write your own __setitem__() method.

> p = [4,0,3,2,1] would turn p into a list.
> p = perm(5)(0,4)(2,4)(0,1)(2,3)(1,2) is valid (right?)
> but time consuming.

That was just for fun... most likely faster than

while p != [4,0,3,2,1]: random.shuffle(p)

> I'd say it'd be easier/better to implement it as:
> >>> class Perm(list):
>
> ...     def __init__(self, n):
> ...             list.__init__(self, n)

The good news: if __init__() does nothing but call the base class'
__init__(), you need not write one at all.

> ...     def __call__(self, i, k):
> ...             self[i], self[k] = self[k], self[i]
> ...             return self
>
> >>> p = Perm([4, 0, 3, 2, 1])
>
> ... anyways, thanks :)

You're welcome.

Peter



From python-url at phaseit.net  Tue Aug 31 15:58:16 2004
From: python-url at phaseit.net (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:58:16 +0000
Subject: Dr. Dobb's Python-URL! - weekly Python news and links (Aug 31)
Message-ID: <mailman.2702.1093995339.5135.python-announce-list@python.org>

QOTW:  "Python is clearly on a huge evolutionary surge and conservative views
on the matter are definitely not winning out right now.  And the usual argument
(submit a patch!) doesn't really work when those who want to avoid many changes
try it... I've been *not* submitting a patch on lots of changes to Python, but
somehow it's never been accepted. ;-)"  Peter Hansen

"I've never seen a more complicated, verbose pile of hogwash than the
'deliverd by mailman' mailing list program."  Carol Carrot, perhaps
innocent of experience with Majordomo and Sendmail


    Michelle Levesque's PyWebOff annotates the Python-savvy Web frameworks.
    PEP 333 offers to rationalize a piece of them.
        http://pyre.third-bit.com/pyweb/index.html
	 http://groups.google.com/groups?th=7f19fe19b40c1be0

    How do generator expressions and list comprehensions compare?  Experts
    explain why the former are *better*--OK, better in several, although
    not all, ways
        http://groups.google.com/groups?frame=left&th=1d4aca073edaaa2f

    Jim Hugunin domesticates Python for the Microsoft weltanschaung.
        http://blogs.msdn.com/hugunin/
	http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1636906,00.asp

    How does Python regard file systems?  It's a timely topic, with
    pyfmf its most concrete expression.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?frame=left&th=c379db570ef96c43
        http://sourceforge.net/projects/pyfmf
	http://richard.jones.name/google-hacks/gmail-filesystem/gmail-filesystem.html

    High-profile Pythoneers Michael Sparks and Alex Martelli demonstrate
    interests beyond the perfection of the One True Language:
    petabyte-scale archiving, and marriage.
        http://www.pcw.co.uk/news/1157046
	http://www.aleax.it/mar.html
	http://bonanna.multiply.com/photos/album/1
    
    Uche Ogbuji reveals his habits for keeping current with Pythonia.
        http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/5490

    
========================================================================
Everything Python-related you want is probably one or two clicks away in
these pages:

    Python.org's Python Language Website is the traditional
    center of Pythonia
        http://www.python.org
    Notice especially the master FAQ
        http://www.python.org/doc/FAQ.html

    PythonWare complements the digest you're reading with the
    marvelous daily python url
         http://www.pythonware.com/daily  
    Mygale is a news-gathering webcrawler that specializes in (new)
    World-Wide Web articles related to Python.
         http://www.awaretek.com/nowak/mygale.html 
    While cosmetically similar, Mygale and the Daily Python-URL
    are utterly different in their technologies and generally in
    their results.

    comp.lang.python.announce announces new Python software.  Be
    sure to scan this newsgroup weekly.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python.announce

    Brett Cannon continues the marvelous tradition established by 
    Andrew Kuchling and Michael Hudson of intelligently summarizing
    action on the python-dev mailing list once every other week.
	http://www.python.org/dev/summary/

    The Python Package Index catalogues packages.
        http://www.python.org/pypi/

    The somewhat older Vaults of Parnassus ambitiously collects references
    to all sorts of Python resources.
        http://www.vex.net/~x/parnassus/   

    Much of Python's real work takes place on Special-Interest Group
    mailing lists
        http://www.python.org/sigs/

    The Python Business Forum "further[s] the interests of companies
    that base their business on ... Python."
	http://www.python-in-business.org

    Python Success Stories--from air-traffic control to on-line
    match-making--can inspire you or decision-makers to whom you're
    subject with a vision of what the language makes practical.
        http://www.pythonology.com/success

    The Python Software Foundation (PSF) has replaced the Python
    Consortium as an independent nexus of activity.  It has official
    responsibility for Python's development and maintenance. 
        http://www.python.org/psf/
    Among the ways you can support PSF is with a donation.
        http://www.python.org/psf/donate.html

    Cetus collects Python hyperlinks.
        http://www.cetus-links.org/oo_python.html

    Python FAQTS
        http://python.faqts.com/

    The Cookbook is a collaborative effort to capture useful and
    interesting recipes.
	http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python

    Among several Python-oriented RSS/RDF feeds available are
	http://www.python.org/channews.rdf
	http://bootleg-rss.g-blog.net/pythonware_com_daily.pcgi
	http://python.de/backend.php
    For more, see
	http://www.syndic8.com/feedlist.php?ShowMatch=python&ShowStatus=all
    The old Python "To-Do List" now lives principally in a
    SourceForge reincarnation.
        http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?atid=355470&group_id=5470&func=browse
        http://python.sourceforge.net/peps/pep-0042.html
     
    The online Python Journal is posted at pythonjournal.cognizor.com.
    editor at pythonjournal.com and editor at pythonjournal.cognizor.com
    welcome submission of material that helps people's understanding
    of Python use, and offer Web presentation of your work.

    *Py: the Journal of the Python Language*
        http://www.pyzine.com

    Archive probing tricks of the trade:
        http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python&num=100
        http://groups.google.com/groups?meta=site%3Dgroups%26group%3Dcomp.lang.python.*

Previous - (U)se the (R)esource, (L)uke! - messages are listed here:
  http://www.ddj.com/topics/pythonurl/         
  http://purl.org/thecliff/python/url.html (dormant)
or
  http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_q=+Python-URL!&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python


Suggestions/corrections for next week's posting are always welcome.
E-mail to <Python-URL at phaseit.net> should get through.

To receive a new issue of this posting in e-mail each Monday morning
(approximately), ask <claird at phaseit.net> to subscribe.  Mention
"Python-URL!".


-- The Python-URL! Team--

Dr. Dobb's Journal (http://www.ddj.com) is pleased to participate in and
sponsor the "Python-URL!" project.




From npat at efault.net  Sun Aug 15 06:53:10 2004
From: npat at efault.net (Nick Patavalis)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 10:53:10 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
References: <mailman.1661.1092519005.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<7x7js1i887.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <slrnchug4m.n0d.npat@gray.efault.net>

On 2004-08-14, Paul Rubin <> wrote:
>
> You can't yield across multiple levels of function calls.  That's why
> they're called "simple generators" instead of just "generators".
>

For me it would be *tremendously* usefull if one could yield across
multiple levels of function calls. If this was supported, then most
uses of O/S treads could be replaced by generators.

Does anyone know if such a feature is planned?

/npat


From http  Sat Aug 28 03:19:10 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 00:19:10 -0700
Subject: would be nice: import from archive
References: <2SJXc.79576$pTn.26490@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<1gj6zoc.1iv3xw32wu6mkN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xzn4gwgea.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7a1o.1a5d2q410jsn2kN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<7xisb4xnh5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<1gj7c1a.tfdm14p3hclcN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7xd61benm9.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:
> While the overall way the new import hooks work is well documented in
> their PEP, zipimport is admittedly underdocumented.  I suggest peeking

OK.  I'll look at the PEP.  I think adding signing is hairy enough
that it should have its own round of discussion; should I see about
editing the PEP to add something about signing?


From http  Mon Aug 23 05:30:08 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 02:30:08 -0700
Subject: Has anyone implemented BASIC in Python?
References: <2oo13eFcj548U1@uni-berlin.de>
	<69cbbef2.0408210857.79439c35@posting.google.com>
	<7x657c8jmn.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
	<F5-dnWXt-twsE7rcRVn-hw@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <7xoel26w2n.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> writes:
> > Dunno about Logo but I did Forth just out of general perversity.
> > I suppose I could post it.
> 
> Please do!

Well, it's not real Forth, just a mini-subset that I threw together in
a few hours, to get some understanding of how Forth is supposed to
work.  But you can type stuff like

  : square dup * ;
  3 square .

and it will print 9 at you.  Part of the perversity is that each word
is compiled to a Python lambda and is invoked by calling the lambda.
The idea was to make both Pythonistas and Forthwrights(?) scream in
disgust ;-).  Please forgive the lack of comments etc.  I wasn't going
to release it (at least in that condition), but you asked for it ;-).

http://www.nightsong.com/phr/python/forth.py


From http  Fri Aug 20 22:07:17 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 20 Aug 2004 19:07:17 -0700
Subject: decorator J4 - any objections?
References: <cab22418.0408201006.16f163b2@posting.google.com>
	<e8-dnS55wpftCrvcRVn-sQ@cablespeedwa.com>
Message-ID: <7xacwpb5wq.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Jeffrey Froman <Jeffrey at Fro.man> writes:
> >    def func(arg1, arg2)
> >        @version("Added in 2.4")
> >        @returns(None)
> >    as:
> >        """Docstring could be here, or in decorator part above"""
> >        # body goes here
> 
> I like this better than the current proposal because it reads from top to
> bottom, and flows like a typical conditional.
> 
> Before function writing the decorators whereas like reads this.

J4 is my favorite of the enumerated proposals I remember, so I'll
"vote" for it, but I still think something better should be possible.


From grv575 at hotmail.com  Tue Aug  3 21:18:54 2004
From: grv575 at hotmail.com (grv)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 01:18:54 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: eric3 completion
Message-ID: <953AD2389idtoken@128.91.2.239>

This is the only IDE that looks very useable on linux of everything I've 
looked at (and not to start a dev environment war) but one thing that is 
troublesome is the word completion.

There is a user-contributed script to parse all the dll and py files to 
make a list of functions & attributes for each namespace, but it doesn't 
pick up some things like file.seek() and datetime.today().  The script 
complains that no source files found, yet other built-ins like open() are 
picked up.  Any guidelines on how to get all the default stuff working for 
code completion?


From dd at guv.ethz.ch  Sun Aug 15 06:37:12 2004
From: dd at guv.ethz.ch (=?iso-8859-15?Q?David_D=FCrrenmatt?=)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 12:37:12 +0200
Subject: Python "decompyle"
Message-ID: <opscrrsaxt5kr1pg@news.swissonline.ch>

Hi.

If I try to use decompyle (decompyle-2.3) for pyc-files < version 2.0, I  
get an error with marshal_20 (ImportError: dynamic module does not define  
init function (initmarshal_20)  ). marshal_20 was compiled to a so-file  
using gcc.

Does anybody know where this error could come from and how to solve it?

Thanks,
dave


-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/


From fuzzyman at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 07:53:13 2004
From: fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 04:53:13 -0700
Subject: Python and C, looking for a C IDE
Message-ID: <6f402501.0408240353.2a5b8a84@posting.google.com>

I'm looking to learn C to move some 'speed sensitive' code from C to
python. I'm partly doign this as an exercise to learn a static
language to help broaden my programming skills - so please don't jump
on the bandwagon and tell me I'd be better placed to put my efforts
into optimising my python code !!

I'd like to use tools like Pyrex and weave with the GCC compiler on
windoze. I've got Pyrex working... but weave doesn't seem t
oco-operate with GCC :-(
Although weave itself will compile with GCC (Apparently) I haven't yet
worked out how to persuade it to *use* GCC... weave has it's own
mutation of distutils with an (apparently) different and undocumetned
configuration system...

That aside - Pyrex looks the kiddie. Can anyone reccomend a reasonable
C IDE ? An 'IDE' would be nice, but an editor might be sufficient.

Regards,


Fuzzy

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/atlantibots/pythonutils.html


From max at alcyone.com  Mon Aug 23 18:58:47 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:58:47 -0700
Subject: % format strings
References: <144d0df.0408231455.6b664466@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <412A76A7.4C87D17C@alcyone.com>

grv575 wrote:

> Is
> there a way to specify the precision length for floating points in C
> format strings?

Yes, it looks the same as in Python.  Python got the notation from C.

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ My reputation grows with every failure.
    -- George Bernard Shaw


From antispam  Mon Aug 30 23:11:36 2004
From: antispam (Maboroshi)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 20:11:36 -0700
Subject: File System
Message-ID: <10j7r3cflo61680@corp.supernews.com>

Hi I was curious

I was interested in finding out from Programmers and Computer Users - If
they were to completely rebuild there Computers Filing System How would it
work

I believe since the advent of the PC we have been brainwashed (In a Sense
cause nothings really Changed ( at least as far as I know )  to have a
filesystem that is structured in this way Open a Folder open its contents
open another folder open its contents open a file move a file delete a file
move a folder delete a folder you get the idea

I believe this structure is much like an array or a multidimensional array
if you were to put it in that respect

Question:
    are most (if not all) databases like this

I believe there is a better way and I want to find it I also believe if
there is a better way it could totally change our approach to programming

I know this isn't neccessarily a python question but it has to do with
future research that will benefit the Python Language plus I like to hear
the opinions of the Python Community which I have a lot of respect for

Cheers

Maboroshi




From narshe at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 11:58:49 2004
From: narshe at gmail.com (Josh Close)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:58:49 -0500
Subject: My only complaint about Python
In-Reply-To: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
References: <cg2hr0$lg9$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <4a0cafe204081908585ab3c0b3@mail.gmail.com>

Why not use ActiveState pythong then?

-Josh

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:42:50 -0400, Darren Dale <dd55 at cornell.edu> wrote:
> I love the language. I love the community. My only complaint is that
> Python for Windows is built with Visual Studio.
> 
> It is too difficult to build python, or a module, from source. This is
> what open source is all about, isnt it? I even have a copy of visual
> studio, and I still cant build modules from source, because my academic
> copy is version 7. As a scientist funded by the NSF, I feel compelled to
> do all my work using free software (I feel compelled to use free
> software, regardless). And I feel compelled to contribute to the
> scientific capabilities of my favorite programming language. But this
> compiler issue is a big (and seemingly unnecessary) impediment. Will the
> BDFL ever split with Visual Studio?
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From ajsiegel at optonline.com  Sat Aug 28 08:37:10 2004
From: ajsiegel at optonline.com (Arthur)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:37:10 GMT
Subject: Question about references/copies
References: <pan.2004.08.28.07.52.35.422774@gmx.de>
	<1gj870c.dzzhcpvby7ozN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <i1u0j09ik1id9uihf3jkdluhdr5jdurik3@4ax.com>

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:32:39 +0200, aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
wrote:

>Henning Kage <c0dec at gmx.de> wrote:
>
>> I'm using Python only for some months now and I'm wondering, whether such
>> assignments as above
>
>"As above" _where_?
>
>> are creating bitwise copies of an object or just
>> recieve a reference. That means I wanted to know, wheter Python in general
>> differs between references and copies:
>> 
>> class someclass:
>>   def __init__( self, otherobject):
>>     self.someattribute = otherobject
>
>Python makes no copy unless you explicitly ask for a copy -- what you
>get is always a reference.  There are several ways to ask for copies --
>the most general and powerful ones you'll find in standard library
>modules copy (both copy.copy and copy.deepcopy -- all other ways of
>asking for a copy, except copy.deepcopy, get shallow copies).

I've felt strongly that this key piece of Python learning would be
and much, much more inevitable if there was a (preferred) consistent
way to ask for a copy, across objects - and/or that the copy module
was something other than one of XXX importable moudles.

That dicts and lists (for example) have totally different syntax for
copy, helps - I promise - to misdirect and confuse. I happen to
consider this entire area a significant wart. I think I am entitled to
consider it so. 

I had tried to bring this up to in various forums, most particularly
edu-sig - where I thought this knid of discussion might be of
particular significance - and was rather rudely asked by Guido to take
it elsewhere.  Where? not clear.

Ray Hettinger asked Gudio for permission to at least put a few words
about the copy module in the tutorial section mentioning a few of the
key importable modules - to at least, I think,. give new users a clue
that there was something of conceptual significance in all this.  And
was refused.

My only participation on python-dev was to ask Gudio to reconsider

And was  - rudely - dismissed. 

I promise Brett C. and Anthony B.  that there is more of a 2-way
street than they might think. For some of us trying to make our own
kind of contribution in our own kind of way.

Art



From joshway_without_spam at myway.com  Thu Aug 26 10:46:22 2004
From: joshway_without_spam at myway.com (JCM)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:46:22 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Inline Conditionals?
References: <mailman.2307.1093385983.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<jt6dnb18R-cz6LDcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
	<1gj4rpq.1oyt89b14xvbdqN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<slrncirqvf.jf.apardon@trout.vub.ac.be>
Message-ID: <cgkt3u$r87$1@fred.mathworks.com>

Antoon Pardon <apardon at forel.vub.ac.be> wrote:
> Op 2004-08-26, Alex Martelli schreef <aleaxit at yahoo.com>:
...
>> Peter's right.  And Joshua's example shows how wise the BDFL was in
>> ruling out ternaries: sure, good programmers might occasionally have
>> found good uses for them, but we' have paid that with a LOT of horrid
>> code like that -- I've seen lots like that in C & its ilk, too.

> When using list comprehension not having a ternary operator can be
> a PITA. It is of course possible I miss something but how am I
> supposed to do the following:

>    [ x.property ? foo(x) : bar(x) for x in Somelist ]

def foo_or_bar(x):
   if x.property:
      return foo(x)
   return bar(x)

[foo_or_bar(x) for x in Somelist]


(still, I'd like to see a ternary conditional operator too...)


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Fri Aug 20 10:56:39 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:56:39 GMT
Subject: Decorator keyword options - brainstorming
References: <7knVc.4599$Jn5.3074@fe1.texas.rr.com>
	<cg5150$9if$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <HioVc.4613$Jn5.3188@fe1.texas.rr.com>

One impression I've gotten from this whole endeavor (even going back to
Kevin Smith's python-dev e-mail thread titled "PEP 318: Can't we all just
get along?") is that what started out as a desire to simplify the
designation of some methods as "class-level" or "static" or "special" in
some way, has gotten muddied with the implementation as it got represented
with the classmethod and staticmethod decorators, and then mutating to
accommodate all types of modifier/decorator/mutators, for resource locking,
debugging, logging, memoizing, etc.

Similarly, I feel our fixation on the "decorator" concept is confounded by
our own understanding that the entries in a list of decorators such as:

keyword:
    memoize
    synchronize
    staticmethod
def foo:
    pass

will translate to:
foo = staticmethod(synchronize(memoize(foo)))

in the current vernacular.

But should we consider this implementation detail when coming up with this
name?  I'd prefer to think of the associations that exist between the
concepts of 'memoize' et al. with 'foo', and use a keyword that describes
those relationships.  And try to do this independent of implementation, or
coincidence with a GoF archetype.

So I have been looking at some alternatives, such as
helper:
amend:
modify:
qualify: (or perhaps qual:)
property: (or perhaps prop:)

On an alternative path, does this have to be a real word?  I confess that
"qual" strikes me in an interesting way, in that it could be thought to
represent either "qualifier" or "quality", and yet is neither.  Or if
"lambda" is used, why not some other Greek letter, such as "mu" or "sigma".

Still, I would like to avoid arbitrary words, as they are little better than
'@' - I'd say that something like "gerbil" should be right out! :)

This clearly represents some "thinking out loud".  Throw rocks or
suggestions at will.

-- Paul




From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Sat Aug 28 14:41:14 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:41:14 -0700
Subject: Dynamic languages
References: <278de0e.0408271349.26762174@posting.google.com>
	<1093650026.763899@news.commspeed.net>
	<rc3Yc.3346$MR2.22572@news1.mts.net>
Message-ID: <1093718996.482485@news.commspeed.net>


"Reid Nichol" <rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rc3Yc.3346$MR2.22572 at news1.mts.net...
> Tom B. wrote:
> > I doubt that this is what they mean but a dynamic language is a language
> > that is still evolving (Python) as opposed to a dead language (COBOL).
> During my "education" at my school of unfortunate choice I had to learn
> the script of the damned... sorry, COBOL.  I learned that it has indeed
> gone through some developments in the past years ie COBOL now is object
> oriented COBOL.
>
> It *should* be dead though, but companies don't want to develope any new
> systems.  So, they fund a programming program at some local college at
> "suggest" that they include it so that they have a work force availible
> to make changes to there system.
>
> That of course doesn't mean that this certain company's COBOL programmer
> lasts on average < 6 months.  Which certainly is the case.  Quite
> frankly I don't know how they last so long.

    I figured that I wouldn't be able to find any truly dead computer
language. I met a technician at U of Minnesota Physics department who
collected PDP11's and programmed only in fourth. When I asked him why he
replied, 'If I don't do it who will'.

Tom




From Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU  Wed Aug 18 21:14:07 2004
From: Michael.J.Fromberger at Clothing.Dartmouth.EDU (Michael J. Fromberger)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 21:14:07 -0400
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
References: <mailman.1829.1092785390.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<65adnQrUKILiC7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1834.1092791633.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<m2vffgd6pu.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>
	<mailman.1858.1092832530.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-6AF702.10114718082004@localhost>
	<mailman.1891.1092854353.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<Michael.J.Fromberger-FF646E.17492318082004@localhost>
	<mailman.1909.1092869465.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Michael.J.Fromberger-F6FD2B.21140718082004@localhost>

In article <mailman.1909.1092869465.5135.python-list at python.org>,
 Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Michael J. Fromberger wrote:
> >>
> >>     def foo(cls, a, b): pass
> >>
> >>...I bet the majority would correctly guess "class".
> > 
> > Well, given just that definition, the guess would be incorrect.  The 
> > current release of Python would also require:
> > 
> >    def foo(cls, a, b): pass  # As defined above
> >    foo = classmethod(foo)
> 
> Actually, it illustrates the importance of proof-reading a post 
> before posting it, which I didn't (sorry).

Understood, no worries.  

> I should've also stated that the Python developers would be told that 
> this is a special version of Python that automatically determines the 
> type (static|class|instance) of a method.  In that light, do you see 
> how effective the visual convention can be?

Oh, I see it just fine -- but I still disagree with the idea of 
including any such implicit magic in the language.  

In fact, I don't like some of the magic that is already there -- such 
as, for instance, the automatic mangling of class members whose names 
begin with a double underscore to get "private" semantics.  But that, at 
least, is easy to avoid, if one doesn't want to use it.

>    * If method's first param is 'self', it's an instance method.
>    * If method's first param is 'cls' or 'klass', it's a class method.
>    * All other methods are static methods.

Uck.  -1 from me.

-M

-- 
Michael J. Fromberger             | Lecturer, Dept. of Computer Science
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~sting/  | Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH, USA


From alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 15 16:58:19 2004
From: alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali)
Date: 15 Aug 2004 13:58:19 -0700
Subject: Anyone use VPython?
References: <8f17f4bc.0408141932.46b7c405@posting.google.com>
	<69juh0dalfeu39fpvvvcb56ukovl0o1fsb@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <8f17f4bc.0408151258.35874dbc@posting.google.com>

Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.com> wrote in message news:<69juh0dalfeu39fpvvvcb56ukovl0o1fsb at 4ax.com>...
> On 14 Aug 2004 20:32:49 -0700, alikakakhel3 at hotmail.com (Ali) wrote:
> 
> >Anyone use VPython?
> 
> Yes.

ok then how yu make things move?


From in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid  Fri Aug 20 17:23:32 2004
From: in.aqua.scribis at nl.invalid (Peter Kleiweg)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 23:23:32 +0200
Subject: Fate of lambda, Functional Programming in Python...
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2076.1093031165.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <20040820163629.8DD4F1E401A@bag.python.org>
	<FB2F45DA-F2C8-11D8-97D4-000A95B336F2@snowtide.com>
	<mailman.2076.1093031165.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0408202320280.1138-100000@kleigh.nl>

Anthony Baxter schreef:

> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:50:02 -0400, Chas Emerick <cemerick at snowtide.com> wrote:
> > In a comment off a post on lambda-the-ultimate, I noticed this little
> > offhand remark:
> >
> > '''IIRC GvR is going to kill the various lambda, map,filter & reduce
> > leaving just generator expressions/list comprehension.'''
>
> First point: lambda, map, filter and reduce won't go away before Python 3.0,
> at the very least. And, to be honest, I suspect map/filter/reduce are much more
> likely to die than lambda, as they can nearly always be expressed more clearly
> as listcomps or genexprs.

The Python Cookbook, recipe 1.8, "Finding the Intersection of
Two Dictionaries" shows different methods of doing this
particular thing, among them list comprehension and filter.
Here, using filter is the fastest of all.

Why would you want to do away with something that is useful?

> Having said that, and donning my interpreting-Guido-hat, the major problem
> with lambda is the scoping issue. Nested scopes make this less of a problem.
> In addition, the name 'lambda' was a poor poor choice.

The choice is perfectly logical.

-- 
Peter Kleiweg  L:NL,af,da,de,en,ia,nds,no,sv,(fr,it)  S:NL,de,en,(da,ia)
info: http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/ls.html

The Halloween Documents: http://www.opensource.org/halloween/



From alanmk at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 22 18:04:15 2004
From: alanmk at hotmail.com (Alan Kennedy)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 23:04:15 +0100
Subject: python doesn't like my numbers
In-Reply-To: <2osfspFdnjbcU1@uni-berlin.de>
References: <2osfspFdnjbcU1@uni-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <OH8Wc.25529$Z14.8011@news.indigo.ie>

[paul k]
> is there any way to convince python not to take my (phone)numbers 
> starting with zero as octals?
> 
>  >>> int(088)
>   File "<stdin>", line 1
>     int(088)
>           ^
> SyntaxError: invalid token

Answer 1: Use strings: that's really what telephone numbers should be

Answer 2: Use valid octal digits in your phone numbers. The digit '8' 
cannot appear in base 8 numbers, only the digits 0-7.

 >>> int(077)
63
 >>> int(088)
Traceback (innermost last):
   (no code object) at line 0
   File "<console>", line 1
         int(088)
              ^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax
 >>>

-- 
alan kennedy
------------------------------------------------------
email alan:              http://xhaus.com/contact/alan


From http  Wed Aug 11 02:28:53 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 23:28:53 -0700
Subject: Yet another decorator proposal
References: <mailman.1480.1092204219.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <7xfz6ujihm.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Marco Aschwanden <PPNTWIMBXFFC at spammotel.com> writes:
> Here is yet another decorator proposal:
> 
> def sumSequencesLengths(var1, var2):
>      """Computes something very important.
> 
>      __decorators__:
>          staticmethod

I think you are onto something.  The particular syntax you proposed
has shortcomings, but maybe improvements are possible.


From wweston at att.net  Mon Aug 23 14:43:35 2004
From: wweston at att.net (wes weston)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 18:43:35 GMT
Subject: Standard graph API?
In-Reply-To: <slrncik8tm.4g.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
References: <slrncik8tm.4g.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
Message-ID: <rVqWc.239552$OB3.207582@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>

Magnus Lie Hetland wrote:
> Is there any interest in a (hypothetical) standard graph API (with
> 'graph' meaning a network, consisting of nodes and edges)? Yes, we
> have the standard ways of implementing graphs through (e.g.) dicts
> mapping nodes to neighbor-sets, but if one wants a graph that's
> implemented in some other way, this may not be the most convenient (or
> abstract) interface to emulate. It might be nice to have the kind of
> polymorphic freedom that one has with, e.g, with the DB-API. One could
> always develop factories or adaptors (such as for PyProtocols) to/from
> the dict-of-sets version...
> 
> So, any interest? Or am I just a lone nut in wanting this?
> 
Magnus,
    A know I'd appreciate it. It could be used to configure
neural nets and logic networks; where this api would make
it easy to build an abstraction then "compile" it into a
faster representation for execution - or just run the
tree/graph in "interpreted" mode.
    I don't think it would get a lot of use, but the use
would be high end.
wes



From crichton314 at btinternet.com  Tue Aug 24 06:10:11 2004
From: crichton314 at btinternet.com (John Crichton)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 03:10:11 -0700
Subject: functional library
References: <0uBWc.191260$M95.165005@pd7tw1no>
Message-ID: <3b2846c4.0408240210.5803b8b4@posting.google.com>

Hi Martin,

You could try the Xoltar toolkit at http://www.xoltar.org/languages/python.html

Hope this helps,

John


From max at alcyone.com  Tue Aug 31 23:11:28 2004
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:11:28 -0700
Subject: string.maketrans().lower()
References: <HBF.20040901ee1r@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <41353DE0.1D7D5AC5@alcyone.com>

Hallvard B Furuseth wrote:

> I have a translation table from
>   tr = string.maketrans(...)
> and want a table which produces the same characters lowercased.
> 
> `tr.lower()' works - at least with Python 2.3 - but is that will
> that remain reliable?  Or should I use something like this?
> 
>  string.maketrans("".join(map(chr, xrange(256))),
>                   "".join(map(chr, xrange(256))).translate(tr).lower())

Sure.  The return value of string.maketrans is just itself a string,
after all.

> BTW, is there a simpler way to write "".join(map(chr, xrange(256)))?

You could use a list comprehension if you prefer.

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ Procrastination is the thief of time.
    -- Edward Young


From c-do-not-spam-me.whitley at earthlink.net  Wed Aug  4 23:14:37 2004
From: c-do-not-spam-me.whitley at earthlink.net (Cecil H. Whitley)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 03:14:37 GMT
Subject: curses
Message-ID: <xChQc.11436$Jp6.10842@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>

Hi,
I had done a quick read of the curses documentation for python.  Upon the
second reading I found that curses is not supported on windows.  I was
wondering if it would be relatively simple to use the python wrapper for
curses on unix (is there such a beast?) to wrap ncurses or the like on
windows?  Optionally, are there any major obstacles to writing a python
wrapper for ncurses or any other curses-like library for windows?
Thanks,
Cecil




From robey at slash_dev_slash_random.org  Wed Aug 18 15:26:00 2004
From: robey at slash_dev_slash_random.org (Robey Holderith)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:26:00 -0500
Subject: Embedding Python in Python
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.18.19.25.59.519570@slash_dev_slash_random.org>


Anyone know a good way to embed python within python?

Now before you tell me that's silly, let me explain
what I'd like to do.

I'd like to allow user-defined scriptable objects.  I'd
like to give them access to modify pieces of my classes.
I'd like to disallow access to pretty much the rest of
the modules.

Any ideas/examples?

-Robey



From lbates at swamisoft.com  Mon Aug 30 11:02:40 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:02:40 -0500
Subject: initializing mutable class attributes
References: <J4zYc.102357$UTP.98636@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
	<cgul4v$h1d$1@online.de>
	<sHGYc.93306$pTn.42032@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
Message-ID: <29SdnfncSK8R3K7cRVn-sA@comcast.com>

Dan,

I too use class attributes to assign defaults, but do
it like following:

import copy

    class Father:
        _attr1default=None
        _attr2default=[]

        def __init__(self):
            self.attr1=self._attr1default
            # Get copy of attr2default
            self.attr2=list(self._attr2default)

         def foo(self, data):
             self.attr1=data
             self.attr2.append(data)


     class Child (Father):
         def __init__(self):
             Father.__init__(self)
             #
             # At this point self.attr1 (instance)
             # and self.attr2 (instance) hold their defaults
             # while _attr1/_attr2default (class) still hold
             # their default values for initialization of more
             # class instances.
             #

HTH,
Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.


"Dan Perl" <dperl at rogers.com> wrote in message
news:sHGYc.93306$pTn.42032 at news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> I will clarify something that was probably not clear enough in my initial
> posting.  I am interested in instance attributes, but I am using the class
> attributes to provide a default, "null", value for the instance
attributes.
> Yes, the instance attributes only mask the class ones, but a class
attribute
> and an instance attribute can be used like this:
>     class WorksForMe:
>         attr=None        # used just as a default value for the instance
> attribute self.attr
>         def foo(self):
>             self.attr=SomethingUseful( )
>         def bar(self):
>             if self.attr:
>                 useIt(self.attr)
>             else:
>                 ignoreIt(self.attr)
> This makes it safe for an instance of WorksForMe to invoke bar( ) even if
it
> never invoked foo( ).
>
> "Benjamin Niemann" <b.niemann at betternet.de> wrote in message
> news:cgul4v$h1d$1 at online.de...
> > That's the way it is supposed to work. Instance attributes have to be
> > initialized via self.foo=..., usually in __init__() which in turn is
> > *STRONGLY* advised to class its parents __init__() - or you create
> > instance attributes 'on-the-fly' when they are used for the first time
> > (useful technique for mixin classes without constructor). Class
> > attributes are initialized once for the class and are shared between
> > instances.
>
> You are confirming the code I suggested but you don't share my view that
> such code is awkward.  I think I I was actually conservative calling it
> awkward, I would rather call it unsafe.  If I were a third-party library
> vendor, I would not be comfortable providing a mixin class that forces
users
> to either invoke the parent's __init__ in their constructors or to
> initialize the instance attributes on-the-fly.  The latter would even be
> against the principles of encapsulation, users should not need to know
about
> the parent's attributes, especially because they may change in future
> releases.  Both ways of restricting the use of the mixin class are unsafe
> because they are easy to be ignored by users.  And it is not only the
users'
> fault if they do not follow the restrictions, it is also my fault to put
> such restrictions in the first place.
>
> I think this points to a weakness in Python as an OO language.  I'm not
> trying to bash it, but my understanding is that Python is still evolving
in
> that respect and I think that this should be improved in the future.
Then,
> on the other hand, maybe I'm the only one feeling this way and there's not
> going to be a change.
>
> > "self.attr1=data" in Father.foo() doesn't "override" the Father.attr1
> > attribute you defined before. It creates an instance attribute that
> > shadows Father.attr1!
> > Both attribute assignments in Father are OK - if you treat them as class
> > attributes. They won't become instance attributes by hidden magic.
> >
> > Dan Perl wrote:
> > > There is something with initializing mutable class attributes that I
am
> > > struggling with.  I'll use an example to explain:
> > >     class Father:
> > >         attr1=None   # this is OK
> > >         attr2=[ ]        # this is wrong
> > >         def foo(self, data):
> > >             self.attr1=data
> > >             self.attr2.append(data)
> > > The initialization of attr1 is obviously OK, all instances of Father
> > > redefine it in the method foo.  But the initialization of attr2 is
wrong
> > > because all the instances of Father end up sharing the same value.
> Maybe
> > > that is desired sometimes, but usually it is just a bug.
> > >
> > > So the only solution I see to this is to initialize attr2 in __init__:
> > >     class Father:
> > >         attr1=None
> > >         def __init__(self):
> > >             self.attr2=[ ]
> > >
> > > This is already awkward because there is such a difference between
attr1
> and
> > > attr2.  But moreover, I think this forces subclasses of Father to do
> > > something like this:
> > >     class Child (Father):
> > >         def __init__(self):
> > >             Father.__init__(self)
> > >             self.attr3=[ ]
> > >
> > > I find this even more awkward because many people will forget to do
it.
> > > Clearly, this is then a more general issue with __init__, but I think
it
> is
> > > accentuated by the fact that you HAVE TO HAVE __init__ in order to
> > > initialize attributes that are mutable.
> > >
> > > Is there something I don't know here and there is a better way to do
> this in
> > > Python?  I would like to get a better solution or otherwise start a
> > > discussion.
> >
>
>




From brianc at temple.edu  Thu Aug 12 11:23:49 2004
From: brianc at temple.edu (brianc at temple.edu)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:23:49 -0400
Subject: Verbosity Check Style
Message-ID: <807a54e8.6ec229a2.8239a00@po-d.temple.edu>

I would like to get people's views on the best way to
implement verbosity (or any command-line option) into python
scripts. 

The three styles I'm wrestling with are:

def func():
    #do stuff
    if VERBOSE:
        print #something useful to know if wanted

or...

if VERBOSE:
    def func():
        #do stuff
        print #something useful to know if wanted
else:
    def func():
        #do stuff

or...

def vfunc():
    #do stuff
    print #something useful to know if wanted
def func():
    #do stuff
if VERBOSE:
    func=vfunc

The former has the benefit of readability. The latter two
examples the benefit of being faster. 

Is there any other great pythonic ways to do this? I'd like to
sample the smorgusborg of styles this list usually offers.

Thanks in advance,
Brian

PS. I'd like to extend an extra thanks to all the large
brain's in jars here. I'm just finishing a summer internship
at a Pharmaceutical Company customizing/optimizing
scripts/programs to do very high end computational chemistry.
(Why I'm a bit obsessed with speed) I have absolutely no
chemistry background and before I started only a year doing
python for small data processing challenges. Through being
able to read this list fairly constantly I've been able to
make such a big splash here (things that used to take days,
now take minutes) in my small amount of time that they'd like
to give me a laptop to keep me on as a contractor during the
school year. Thank you all so very much for giving a 19 year
old a bright future and a way to pay for college.


From rogerb at rogerbinns.com  Mon Aug  9 18:43:48 2004
From: rogerb at rogerbinns.com (Roger Binns)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:43:48 -0700
Subject: Popular Python projects with lots of pure Python code
References: <mailman.1418.1092088893.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <9ablu1-peu.ln1@home.rogerbinns.com>

Brett C. wrote:
> So I am trying to come up with a list of projects I can use to get my
> stats from.  the stdlib is a no-brainer.  Also plan to use Docutils.
> But beyond those most of the big Python projects I can think of have a
> ton of C code which is of no use to me.  I don't need to be able to
> run it, just going to be compiling to .py files.

ZOPE/Plone. BitTorrent.

Have a look on SourceForge.

http://sourceforge.net/softwaremap/trove_list.php?form_cat=178

Other than the 10,000 clones of BitTorrent and projects that
use Python very peripherally, there are many appropriate
projects.

My BitPim project has 30,000 lines of Python, 2,500 lines of
description files which are compiled into 41,000 lines of
Python and 500 lines of C/C++.  It does GUI stuff, talks on
serial ports to cell phones, has XML-RPC remoting over secure
connections, has installation code, uses external data sources
such as CSV, vCards as well as Outlook, Evolution etc.  Consequently
that gives you a nice wide spread of things the code does.  If you do
use it, feel free to send me email if you have any questions
or need help.  There is also a presentation I did which gives a
good overview:

  http://bitpim.org/papers/baypiggies/

Roger






From deetsNOSPAM at web.de  Thu Aug 19 16:02:22 2004
From: deetsNOSPAM at web.de (Diez B. Roggisch)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:02:22 +0200
Subject: ZeroDivisionError: float division (baby steps)
References: <6daa8765.0408191133.2f2e22e3@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cg310d$rfa$06$1@news.t-online.com>

I reduced the code to the lines that actually do something with count:

> count= 0
> count= count + 1
> count= count -1

This yields count beeing 0 - thus you get a ZeroDivisionError, as one has to
expect for division by zero....

I'm not totally sure what you actually want, but it seems to me that you
should indent the lines

count= count + 1
sum= sum + number

to the same level as the loop - that will make them part of the loop, so you
actually get some numbers accumulated.

 
-- 
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch


From chris.cavalaria at free.fr  Sat Aug 14 07:56:53 2004
From: chris.cavalaria at free.fr (Christophe Cavalaria)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 13:56:53 +0200
Subject: AntiDecorator metaclass
References: <mailman.1640.1092453732.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <411dfe05$0$6142$626a14ce@news.free.fr>

Paul Morrow wrote:

> One of the beautiful things about Python is its clear, minimal syntax.
> So we must resist adding new syntax to the language, especially where
> there is a reasonable alternative.
> 
> I believe that Stefen Eischet's suggestion for automatically determining
> a method's type (class/instance/static) from the name of its first
> formal parameter is a reasonable alternative to any/all of the decorator
> syntax proposals.

Here is another one that forgot that decorators aren't limited to
classmethod and staticmethod. Therefore, that proposal alone isn't an
alternative to any other syntax.

If you want to say that decorators should be limited to classmethod and
staticmethod, say it and give us a good reason, a very very good reason.


From dbickett at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 20:48:11 2004
From: dbickett at gmail.com (Beeyah)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 17:48:11 -0700
Subject: simple Thread question
References: <b8001e9f.0408031151.4f617c6@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1d6cdae3.0408171648.1b8767ea@posting.google.com>

adeger at netlibrary.com (adeger) wrote in message news:<b8001e9f.0408031151.4f617c6 at posting.google.com>...
> 	def run(self, name):
> 		import time
> 		for i in range(1,11):
> 			print 'thread ', name, ' instance ', str(i)
> 			time.sleep(1)

You're importing the time module for every TestThr() object you
create, that's no good. You only need to import the module once, at
the beginning of the file like you've done with threading.


From p_s_oberoi at hotmail.com  Mon Aug  9 17:20:59 2004
From: p_s_oberoi at hotmail.com (Paramjit Oberoi)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 16:20:59 -0500
Subject: Purely emotional perspective
References: <10hf3oaltbo7o74@corp.supernews.com>
	<AYSdnQ2xPrfFPYrcRVn-iA@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1400.1092070428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<XqSdnTW-4KvRIIrcRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.09.21.20.59.953540@hotmail.com>

> And the usual argument (submit a patch!) doesn't really work when those
> who want to avoid many changes try it... I've been *not* submitting a
> patch on lots of changes to Python, but somehow it's never been
> accepted. ;-)
> 
> -Peter

QOTW!!

I have to say though, that @ decorators are starting to grow on me
even though I was strongly against that syntax at first.

-param


From ben at benlast.com  Tue Aug 17 09:09:44 2004
From: ben at benlast.com (Ben Last)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:09:44 +0100
Subject: How big can a Python program be?
In-Reply-To: <903b3fba.0408170333.49ce3944@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <HLEGKHKIKMEHENBAEIEPEEAECEAA.ben@benlast.com>

Unless I've misremembered, the Python interpreter executes lines as they're
entered, whether read from a file or typed in (with the exception that
blocks of code made up of multiple lines are executed when the last line is
complete), so in theory, one could feed code to Python indefinitely and it'd
just keep going.  If the execution of those lines doesn't continually
require more memory, then arguably one answer is "as long as you have CPU
time to interpret it".

ben

> -----Original Message-----
> From: python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org
> [mailto:python-list-bounces+ben=benlast.com at python.org]On Behalf Of
> vronskij at post.sk
> Sent: 17 August 2004 12:33
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: How big can a Python program be?
>
>
> Hi,
>
> A C program can be hundreds of thousands lines of code big.
> C++ millions.
>
> How about Python?
>
> Suppose , you are a sole programmer (lonewolf). How many lines
> can one handle?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> jan bodnar
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug 20 15:29:23 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:29:23 -0400
Subject: age of Python programmers
In-Reply-To: <3064b51d.0408201047.40a9e9d8@posting.google.com>
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<3064b51d.0408201047.40a9e9d8@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <UcqdnbdWaYYHzbvcRVn-uQ@powergate.ca>

beliavsky at aol.com wrote:

> "Lucas Raab" <pythongnome at hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<jQHUc.1529$2L3.505 at newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> 
>>One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
>>Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
>>about....
> 
> Related question -- at what age can Python be taught to a bright, motivated child?

I expect to be old enough to teach Python to a bright, motivated
child or two (maybe even mine) in a few more years.  ;-)

-Peter


From amk at amk.ca  Thu Aug  5 15:40:48 2004
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 14:40:48 -0500
Subject: Quixote vs. Preppy
References: <1779534897.20040805105519@MailBlocks.com>
	<mailman.1209.1091724920.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <RuqdncwL5e_dEI_cRVn-uw@speakeasy.net>

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 10:55:19 -0600, 
	Bruce Eckel <BruceEckel at MailBlocks.com> wrote:
> programmer"), but someone also suggested Preppy from Reportlabs:
> http://www.reportlab.org/preppy.html

Preppy looks like a templating library, not an arbitrary web framework, so
the direct comparison is to Quixote's PTL.  It should be straightforward to
use Preppy templates from a Quixote handler function, something like:

import preppy
def _q_index (request):
    d = {'name':'amk', ...}
    m = preppy.getModule('template')
    return m.run(d)
    
(The Quixote Wiki at http://www.quixote.ca/qx/ also includes examples
showing Quixote with other templating libraries such as SimpleTAL. The tips
on http://www.quixote.ca/qx/TemplatingWithZpt are probably relevant.)    

--amk


From darragh.sherwin at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 08:37:21 2004
From: darragh.sherwin at gmail.com (Darragh Sherwin)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:37:21 +0100
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
In-Reply-To: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E6F@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
References: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E6F@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>
Message-ID: <8abf17020408270537332bc0d7@mail.gmail.com>

I vote FOR for the J2 syntax, it is more pleasant on the eye than the
current @ syntax
The only thing is the 'using' keyword does not seem right. 

--
Darragh Sherwin
OpenOffice.org Developer for Propylon
http://www.propylon.com
+353-1-4927456


From pwatson at redlinepy.com  Thu Aug 19 11:38:33 2004
From: pwatson at redlinepy.com (Paul Watson)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:38:33 -0500
Subject: Interface to win32 resources
Message-ID: <2ojvrqFbj9ttU1@uni-berlin.de>

I need to access Win32 PE resources (strings, dialogs, etc.).  Yes, I see
that I can do it using Mark Hammond's win32all.

I am using _winreg which comes with Python to access the registry.  I could
also access the registry through win32all.

Is there or has there been any discussion of a _winres to access resources?

I would rather use a module that comes with Python that to require the user
to install win32all.  This would reduce complexity and possibly resistance
to using a Python application.




From greg at invalid.invalid  Fri Aug 20 04:23:42 2004
From: greg at invalid.invalid (Greg Krohn)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:23:42 GMT
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <iyiVc.7657$3O3.51@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>

My vote: C1 D2 J2

Greg Krohn


From nnorwitz at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 00:09:00 2004
From: nnorwitz at gmail.com (Neal Norwitz)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 21:09:00 -0700
Subject: introspection?
References: <mailman.1907.1092865845.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ee2a432c.0408181929.7be7199e@posting.google.com>

Jim Benson <jbenson at lowell.edu> wrote in message news:<mailman.1907.1092865845.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> 
> How does one get the class and method name from within
> a method?

    >>> import sys
    >>> class C:
    ...   def foo(self): 
    ...     print self.__class__.__name__, sys._getframe().f_code.co_name
    ...
    >>> C().foo()
    C foo

Neal


From mattjensen at timetospare.net  Mon Aug 30 01:07:05 2004
From: mattjensen at timetospare.net (Matthew K Jensen)
Date: 29 Aug 2004 22:07:05 -0700
Subject: os.popen problem
References: <173c23bb.0408282255.2f1be2ee@posting.google.com>
	<1093798880.792738@news.commspeed.net>
Message-ID: <173c23bb.0408292107.5287c0af@posting.google.com>

"Tom B." <sbabbitt at commspeed.net> wrote in message news:<1093798880.792738 at news.commspeed.net>...
> "Matthew K Jensen" <mattjensen at timetospare.net> wrote in message 
> news:173c23bb.0408282255.2f1be2ee at posting.google.com...
> > Ok, this might seem odd as to why I am doing this in this certain way,
> > but it's for a very specific purpose, and in so doing needs to be done
> > this way. I am writing code on a winbloze box like so:
> > 
> I have never gotten popen to work correctly in windows, maybe you could 
> try writing a batch file or download The Python for Windows extensions
> at http://starship.python.net/crew/mhammond/ and do something like.
> 
> from win32com.client import constants
> import win32con
> import win32com
> shell = win32com.client.Dispatch("WScript.Shell")
> shell.Run('notepad.exe')
> shell.SendKeys('And now for something completely different')
> 
> but SendKeys only sends to the window with focus
> 
> Tom
> --

I have to be running the command "copy con somefilename". And I have
to be able to tell this command to terminate in the normal fashion.
Normally when operating on the command line, one uses either F6 or
Ctrl-Z. This is a very old trick stemming from oldschool DOS. I can't
specify why I am doing this certain thing this way, for reasons of not
giving away the idea I have prematurely. I guess the real problem is
right where I input '^Z'. Does anybody have any clue on how to do
this?


From mattjensen at timetospare.net  Sun Aug 29 01:05:11 2004
From: mattjensen at timetospare.net (Matthew K Jensen)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 22:05:11 -0700
Subject: Help req: py2exe's compiled executables only working with XP
Message-ID: <173c23bb.0408282105.4cd76e07@posting.google.com>

I am a young programmer with his big break on the line. For some
reason, small apps that I've written and compiled on an XP machine
won't work on anything but XP machines. I can't find any clue as to
what's going on. Is the problem py2exe or something in my own scripts?
I am at the end of my rope and I'm hoping someone out there can give
me a pointer of two.

Respectfully with full recognition that a lot of you are smarter than
me,
Matt K Jensen


From python-url at phaseit.net  Mon Aug  2 11:08:15 2004
From: python-url at phaseit.net (Peter Otten)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 15:08:15 GMT
Subject: Dr. Dobb's Python-URL! - weekly Python news and links (Aug  2)
Message-ID: <celbjf$585$1@lairds.us>

QOTW: "We can't really say much more about thread safety than this, we
think the interpreter will survive. The rest is up to the programmer."
- Donn Cave

"Despite the seemingly endless necessity for doing so, it's actually not
possible to reverse-engineer intended invariants from staring at
thousands of lines of code (not in C, and not in Python code either)."
- Tim Peters


    Marduk wants to use string formatting with an arbitrary iterable
    instead of a tuple. Hans Nowak posts a format function that fits the
    bill.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=40FF1A61.9050408%40zephyrfalcon.org
    
    The release of IronPython 0.6, a Python implementation for .Net and
    Mono, spawns a broader discussion on the merits of .Net and the
    Common Language Runtime.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457%40posting.google.com
        http://www.ironpython.com
    
    Christopher T. King takes a closer look at Yaroslav Bulatov's attempt
    to benchmark various approaches to sum many floating point numbers.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=Pine.LNX.4.44.0408011847510.21160-100000%40ccc4.wpi.edu

    Premshree Pillai writes an SMS-to-LiveJournal gateway
    in Python
        http://www.livejournal.com/users/premshree/33967.html
    
    How would you iterate over a list two consecutive items at a time?
    That's a the heart of jblazi's question, and it turns out that there
    are two ways to do it.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=pan.2004.07.31.12.27.23.547000%40hotmail.com
    
    Patrick Rutledge has written an introduction on how to create games
    using pygame.
        http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=7694
    
    Is Python fully thread-safe? Jeff Epler is poking fun at the
    questioner, but Francois Pinard (sorry, no cedilla today) points the
    discussion into a more serious direction.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=mailman.775.1090684870.5135.python-list%40python.org
    
    "Btw, thank you for those footnotes in Thinking in Java that
    encouraged me to try Python :-)" - Dan Bishop.
    Bruce Eckel, author of "Thinking in Java", asks for a test for string
    similarity. He receives various answers and a thank-you.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=mailman.958.1091195562.5135.python-list%40python.org
    
    Dan Sugalski has lost the "Pie-thon" bet to Guido van Rossum that
    Python would run faster on Parrot, the virtual machine meant to power
    Perl 6. Images of Guido throwing the pie are finally available.
        http://www.onlamp.com/pub/wlg/5346
        http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oscon2004/friday/index.html

    
========================================================================
Everything Python-related you want is probably one or two clicks away in
these pages:

    Python.org's Python Language Website is the traditional
    center of Pythonia
        http://www.python.org
    Notice especially the master FAQ
        http://www.python.org/doc/FAQ.html

    PythonWare complements the digest you're reading with the
    marvelous daily python url
         http://www.pythonware.com/daily  
    Mygale is a news-gathering webcrawler that specializes in (new)
    World-Wide Web articles related to Python.
         http://www.awaretek.com/nowak/mygale.html 
    While cosmetically similar, Mygale and the Daily Python-URL
    are utterly different in their technologies and generally in
    their results.

    comp.lang.python.announce announces new Python software.  Be
    sure to scan this newsgroup weekly.
        http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python.announce

    Brett Cannon continues the marvelous tradition established by 
    Andrew Kuchling and Michael Hudson of intelligently summarizing
    action on the python-dev mailing list once every other week.
	http://www.python.org/dev/summary/

    The Python Package Index catalogues packages.
        http://www.python.org/pypi/

    The somewhat older Vaults of Parnassus ambitiously collects references
    to all sorts of Python resources.
        http://www.vex.net/~x/parnassus/   

    Much of Python's real work takes place on Special-Interest Group
    mailing lists
        http://www.python.org/sigs/

    The Python Business Forum "further[s] the interests of companies
    that base their business on ... Python."
	http://www.python-in-business.org

    The Python Software Foundation (PSF) has replaced the Python
    Consortium as an independent nexus of activity.  It has official
    responsibility for Python's development and maintenance. 
        http://www.python.org/psf/
    Among the ways you can support PSF is with a donation.
        http://www.python.org/psf/donate.html

    Cetus collects Python hyperlinks.
        http://www.cetus-links.org/oo_python.html

    Python FAQTS
        http://python.faqts.com/

    The Cookbook is a collaborative effort to capture useful and
    interesting recipes.
	http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python

    Among several Python-oriented RSS/RDF feeds available are
	http://www.python.org/channews.rdf
	http://bootleg-rss.g-blog.net/pythonware_com_daily.pcgi
	http://python.de/backend.php
    For more, see
	http://www.syndic8.com/feedlist.php?ShowMatch=python&ShowStatus=all
    The old Python "To-Do List" now lives principally in a
    SourceForge reincarnation.
        http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?atid=355470&group_id=5470&func=browse
        http://python.sourceforge.net/peps/pep-0042.html
     
    The online Python Journal is posted at pythonjournal.cognizor.com.
    editor at pythonjournal.com and editor at pythonjournal.cognizor.com
    welcome submission of material that helps people's understanding
    of Python use, and offer Web presentation of your work.

    *Py: the Journal of the Python Language*
        http://www.pyzine.com

    Archive probing tricks of the trade:
        http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python&num=100
        http://groups.google.com/groups?meta=site%3Dgroups%26group%3Dcomp.lang.python.*

Previous - (U)se the (R)esource, (L)uke! - messages are listed here:
  http://www.ddj.com/topics/pythonurl/         
  http://purl.org/thecliff/python/url.html (dormant)
or
  http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_q=+Python-URL!&as_ugroup=comp.lang.python


Suggestions/corrections for next week's posting are always welcome.
E-mail to <Python-URL at phaseit.net> should get through.

To receive a new issue of this posting in e-mail each Monday morning
(approximately), ask <claird at phaseit.net> to subscribe.  Mention
"Python-URL!".


-- The Python-URL! Team--

Dr. Dobb's Journal (http://www.ddj.com) is pleased to participate in and
sponsor the "Python-URL!" project.




From nobody at nowhere.com  Tue Aug 24 14:19:07 2004
From: nobody at nowhere.com (Fred)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:19:07 +0200
Subject: Python and C, looking for a C IDE
References: <6f402501.0408240353.2a5b8a84@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <0h1ni0hjqggrk2atp7ao31a6l1dn2ctobk@4ax.com>

On 24 Aug 2004 04:53:13 -0700, fuzzyman at gmail.com (Michael Foord)
wrote:
>I'm looking to learn C to move some 'speed sensitive' code from C to
>python. I'm partly doign this as an exercise to learn a static
>language to help broaden my programming skills - so please don't jump
>on the bandwagon and tell me I'd be better placed to put my efforts
>into optimising my python code !!

... or you could take a look at writing this speed-sensitive part in
PowerBasic. The speed and size of C, without the hassles :-)

http://www.powerbasic.com/products/pbdll32/

I haven't yet looked at how to compile a DLL in PowerBasic and call it
from Python, but it's on my to-do list.
Fred.


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug 30 09:18:39 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:18:39 -0400
Subject: Announcing PyCs, a new Python-like language on .Net
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2572.1093751093.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2572.1093751093.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <wpednTKTk8ustK7cRVn-og@powergate.ca>

Mark Hahn wrote:

> This is an announcement of the beginning of development of a new
> Python-like language called PyCs (pronounced "pie-cees"). 

Reacting merely to the name, I'd say this smells "fishy".  ;-)

(Non-English speakers, please note the winky and consider
homonyms with a sign of the Zodiac before saying I'm being rude.)

-Peter


From quaggy at gmail.com  Sat Aug 28 17:58:30 2004
From: quaggy at gmail.com (Jonathan Wright)
Date: 28 Aug 2004 14:58:30 -0700
Subject: OT: simple compiled languages?
In-Reply-To: <7xzn4fu188.fsf_-_@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <cgqv66$rbn@odak26.prod.google.com>

Hi Paul,

You might be interested in http://www.llvm.org or
http://www.cminusminus.org/.

Jonathan.



From jeff at ccvcorp.com  Fri Aug  6 15:58:34 2004
From: jeff at ccvcorp.com (Jeff Shannon)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 12:58:34 -0700
Subject: tweaking @decorator syntax
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1245.1091759909.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <b03e80d.0408040809.66c50ecf@posting.google.com>	<b03e80d.0408051504.19e33991@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1245.1091759909.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10h7ombdaruuae9@corp.supernews.com>

Andrew Durdin wrote:

>
>5. In appearance it looks like a special kind of statement; and it is
>not at all obvious to me that it is rather a kind of attribute or
>modifier of the following function definition. I don't know of any
>other construction in Python that performs a similar, unmarked (i.e.
>non-explicit) modification of the following statement. So to me the
>@syntax comes across as extremely un-Pythonic (by that I mean
>radically inconsistent with the conventions of the rest of the
>language). For this same reason, I dislike all the proposed syntaxes
>which involve placing something before the "def" without a subsequent
>indented block.
>  
>

Ah, yes!  Thank you for expressing the thing that's been really bugging 
me about this syntax, but which I hadn't quite managed to put into 
coherent words.  I kept thinking that having all that stuff "stacked up" 
above the function def looked horribly ugly, but I couldn't quite 
express why...  but I think you've hit on it exactly, there.

The fact that it adds punctuation to an otherwise low-punctuation 
language compounds matters, and I too would rather see a keyword than a 
punctuation mark (though I do also understand the reluctance to add new 
keywords).  But really, it's the placement rather than the punctuation 
that truly grates on my eyes.

Hm, just as an experiment...

    def f(x,y):
        '''tests two ints for equality
        '''
        @accepts(int, int)
        @returns(bool)

        return x == y


I still don't care for the @, but this looks much less jarring to me.  
At very least, the decorators are much more clearly associated with the 
particular function.

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International



From bokr at oz.net  Fri Aug 27 01:54:08 2004
From: bokr at oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Date: 27 Aug 2004 05:54:08 GMT
Subject: Static properties
References: <mailman.2426.1093530829.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1gj5e8n.xujsah4chw0gN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <cgmia0$qfc$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 23:01:49 +0200, aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) wrote:

>Per Erik Stendahl <python-spam at berrs.net> wrote:
>
>> Hello everyone,
>> 
>> Is it possible to define "static properties" in a class?
>
>Yes, but only by defining a custom metaclass to be the type of that
>class.  Properties are defined in the type, not in the instance; so, for
>a class itself to have properties, the class's type, commonly known as
>its metaclass, must be the one defining them.

Um, UIAM a property is just a peculiar descriptor, which you can define
without resorting to metaclass magic. See below ...
>
>
>>>> class metaPath(type):
>...     def curdir(cls): return os.getcwd()
>...     curdir = property(curdir)
>... 
>>>> class Path: __metaclass__ = metaPath
>... 
>>>> print Path.curdir
>/Users/alex/cb/dblite/dblite_0.5
>
>
>_However_...:
>
>>>> print Path().curdir
>Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
>AttributeError: 'Path' object has no attribute 'curdir'
>>>> 
>
>if you want to be able to get at property curdir on INSTANCES of Path as
>you normally would for a staticmethod, yet with property syntax, I think
>you need to get a bit more clever than this... descriptors don't get
>looked up two metalevels up, only one...
>
But you only need one:

 >>> class Path(object):
 ...     class curdir(object):
 ...         def __get__(self, inst, cls): return os.getcwd()
 ...     curdir = curdir()
 ...
 >>> import os
 >>> Path.curdir
 'C:\\pywk\\clp'
 >>> Path().curdir
 'C:\\pywk\\clp'

I wonder if I'll beat you to this post ;-)

Regards,
Bengt Richter


From pepijn.kenter at nospam.dlr.nl  Fri Aug 20 04:36:17 2004
From: pepijn.kenter at nospam.dlr.nl (Pepijn Kenter)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:36:17 +0200
Subject: Array of objects in numpy.
Message-ID: <2olrdjFbgdd0U1@uni-berlin.de>

Hi all.

I'm new to python and want to use it for an assignment.

I have succesfully implemented a galois field class including the _repr__,
__mul__, __div__, __add__ and __sub__ methods. Basically a galois field is
an integer modulo a prime number. Now I want to make a matrix of these
galois field objects using the numpy library. Constructing, printing and
multiplying arrays of GF's works fine. However there are several functions
that give problems, most importantly: dot, repeat. 

I'm affraid I've forgotten my memmory stick with the code and error
messages :-(, so I have to keep my question general. If I recall correctly,
the repeat function complained that my GF object didn't have the
__getelem__ method implemented (IMO this should not be necessary), the dot
function complained about an unsupported type. I know this is not the
preffered way of asking for help on usenet but I'd like some feedback so I
can work this weekend on the problem. I can use the dot & repeat with
normal numpy arrays of floats, so I'm sure it is not due to my inexperience
with python.

Does anybody have experience using object arrays in numpy? Should I be able
to get the dot & repeat function working, and what methods should my GF
object support? Or are there known problems and pitfalls?

Any help would be appreciated.

Regards, Pepijn Kenter.



From al at biolinux.ch  Tue Aug  3 08:37:47 2004
From: al at biolinux.ch (Antoine Logean)
Date: 3 Aug 2004 05:37:47 -0700
Subject: intersection of 2 strings
Message-ID: <e3dbc412.0408030437.bc62176@posting.google.com>

Hi,

What is the easiest way to get the intersection of two strings in
python (a kind a "and" operator) ?
ex:

string_1 = "the_car_of_my_fried_is_bigger_as_mine_but_my_girlfriend_is_more_beautifull"

string_2 =
"my_girlfriend_is_more_beautifull_and_has_blue_eyes"

and the intersection :
string_1 "and" string_2 = "my_girlfriend_is_more_beautifull"

thanks for your help

Antoine


From aleaxit at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 28 12:05:24 2004
From: aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 18:05:24 +0200
Subject: Are decorators really that different from metaclasses...
References: <cgfqdi$7pi$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<loom.20040825T004528-605@post.gmane.org>
	<412C09B4.5070106@yahoo.com>
	<loom.20040825T055456-468@post.gmane.org>
	<mailman.2346.1093432824.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<b8ad139e.0408251248.1bc0d7bf@posting.google.com>
	<cgj8f5$t1b$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040826003171d312fc@mail.gmail.com>
	<412D9F1E.6000809@yahoo.it>
	<mailman.2413.1093518357.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<nfnri09co3gbg56uoa61h769bh3n5oulqr@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2423.1093527121.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<ietri01h4lg9juja87vl02v8pa7hbh6u3o@4ax.com>
	<e69d3ed204082607536abfa65c@mail.gmail.com>
	<cgkuf9$ehg$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed204082608183634bab@mail.gmail.com>
	<cglg26$ehg$3@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040827083448c31d45@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.2548.1093646396.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgosmb$ki0$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
	<mailman.2562.1093697125.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1gj8q2n.1fbrmbet624ssN%aleaxit@yahoo.com>

Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
   ...
> Cool!  Thanks!  Now I need to ponder why a function's docstring needs a
> different implementation than a class's docstring (i.e. why not just 
> make it a straigtforward attribute of the function object).

Historically, functions had docstrings before they had straightforward
attributes.  Maybe it could be that.


Alex


From lbates at swamisoft.com  Fri Aug  6 09:56:54 2004
From: lbates at swamisoft.com (Larry Bates)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 08:56:54 -0500
Subject: Standalone Python Programs...
References: <ceugpq$35rs$1@netnews.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <-aSdndbo7ry5E47cRVn-ig@comcast.com>

I've found that py2exe and Inno Setup Installeer to be a good
combination (for Windows).  It isn't a single executable, but
then what modern program is any more.  It doesn't require
distribution/installation of Python.  I've used it to install
some pretty complex combinations (wxWindows, PIL, ReportLab,
etc.) with no problems.  Inno Setup has proven to be flexible
enough to install everything that I've done so far.

I can't speak to Linux installations because I have always
just used the Python installation already there.

HTH,
Larry Bates
Syscon, Inc.

"uri bushey" <urbushey at sas.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:ceugpq$35rs$1 at netnews.upenn.edu...
> I have a Python program that is built on an infrastructure of quite a
> few other programs, but I would like to create a standalone nonetheless.
>
> It doesn't necesarily have to be its own executable, although this is
> the most attractive option - it could just mean distributing the entire
> python distribution with it in an installer or something.
>
> However, here is what I have called in my python file:
> Tkinter, and multiple Pmw widgets
> WaveSurfer, called as a "Wsurf" widget, which is a great little program
> used for Spectrograms of wave files etc. It relies on Tcl/Tk and the
> SNACK library, which also have to be installed for my script to work.
>
> Can anyone help? I'm open to any option, py2xe, mcmillan's, or cx_freeze
> or whatever that program is, or even an installer that installs all of
> those programs.
>
> I'm vying for the most elegant solution.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --uri




From b.niemann at betternet.de  Wed Aug 25 06:45:46 2004
From: b.niemann at betternet.de (Benjamin Niemann)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:45:46 +0200
Subject: Why return None?
In-Reply-To: <HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
References: <S2YWc.201615$M95.19420@pd7tw1no>
	<mailman.2340.1093423428.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<HQZWc.201927$M95.98470@pd7tw1no>
Message-ID: <cghqeo$1cj$1@online.de>

Martin DeMello wrote:

> Anthony Baxter <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:26:26 GMT, Martin DeMello
>><martindemello at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>It seems to be a fairly common pattern for an object-modifying method to
>>>return None - however, this is often quite inconvenient.
>>
>>list.reverse() modifies the list in place. The python idiom is that
>>these don't return a reference to the modified list. Although note the
> 
> 
> Yes, but why? I mean, is there either an advantage to returning None or
> some inherent danger in returning self?
The danger is that you might forget about the side effect.

l = [1, 2, 4, 3]
sorted = l.sort()
... # do something with sorted list
print l   # I want to unsorted list here, but oops...

In place object modification is often faster, but you loose the original 
data - this should be explicitly visible in the code


From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug  9 14:06:06 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 09 Aug 2004 18:06:06 GMT
Subject: how many bytes in an int
References: <9ACRc.1523$bJ2.9739@news1.mts.net>
	<4116f8ee$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<FADRc.1532$bJ2.9871@news1.mts.net> <41171D06.6060507@v.loewis.de>
	<fQORc.1712$bJ2.10620@news1.mts.net>
Message-ID: <4117bd0e$0$65563$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-09, Reid Nichol <rnichol_rrc at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Thanks to all who helped.  This is my solution (maybe overkill) but I 
> plan on adding read/write functions, etc (of course its just a first 
> thought).  It seems to work, so any feedback is appreciated.

As was just pointed out to me, if you specify byter order with
'<' or '>', you don't have to guess/calculate lengths, they are
fixed regardless of the underlying C types.  IOW, struct does
do exactly what you want. Just specify the byte order you desire.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  I call it a "SARDINE
                                  at               ON WHEAT"!
                               visi.com            


From peter at engcorp.com  Mon Aug  9 12:03:35 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 12:03:35 -0400
Subject: Purely emotional perspective
In-Reply-To: <10hf3oaltbo7o74@corp.supernews.com>
References: <10hf3oaltbo7o74@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <AYSdnQ2xPrfFPYrcRVn-iA@powergate.ca>

Jeffrey Froman wrote:

[...]
> Now come decorators, introducing a non-alphabetic symbol (instead of say, a
> new keyword), and worst of all for readability, they come *before* the
> function declaration that they supposedly decorate.
> 
> I understand that doing things this way has certain technical advantages,
> but this is the first time I (in my short history with python) have noticed
> readability being sacrificed for any reason. 

I think those pushing the syntax with decorators *before* the function
def believe that *that approach* provides greater readability.  This
isn't an argument about whether or not decorators should be readable,
but about what constitutes readability.  Obviously this is largely a
matter of opinion.

I think putting them before the def right now is probably going to
be seen by those folks as more readable, largely because they are
not used to having decorators at all, so having them stand out right
up front seems best.

This is like the third, center brake light on cars though --
once every car had them, they stopped standing out quite so
much, but it's too late to remove them now.

After a while, when everyone is used to decorators, it won't
be important to have them way out front like that, and they
could just as well, and perhaps more readably (at that time),
be moved to after the def.

Unfortunately, whatever we start with will stick, so they
will always be out front even though the advantages of that
position will have evaporated.

I say look to the future and realize that after a period of
adaptation, we'll all be just as capable of spotting decorators,
especially if they are still @ or | prefixed, if they come
after the def, as in list-after-def or as in this:

     def func(some, arguments, that, might=span,
         multiple=lines):
         | staticmethod
         | foobarbaz(x=5)
         | doc('''A sample function''')
         # and the body goes here

Yes, I know, people might think those lines are executed
in the body of the function, every time through.  Well, those
people obviously didn't notice the decorator syntax, or read
about decorators, so it's not important whether or not they
think that, because they clearly won't understand anything about
the function at this point.

Those who know about decorators will know, as with some of the
other warts of Python, that they are executed *after* the
function is defined, not on execution.

-Peter


From fred at acme.com  Sat Aug 21 08:50:40 2004
From: fred at acme.com (Fred)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:50:40 +0200
Subject: [newbie] Strange behavior of the re module
References: <2ejdi01btug5iskb4ipjpj7eaprd8i7vgm@4ax.com>
	<4126CFCC.8000609@zephyrfalcon.org>
	<ohkdi05et02gt0lkkg5hhfa5t7banb7bab@4ax.com>
	<mailman.2094.1093065202.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <86hei0prvp55iom91df23tffh04egefeig@4ax.com>

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 01:13:20 -0400, Tim Peters <tim.peters at gmail.com>
wrote:
>I can't figure out what you're trying to accomplish here, but the
>error msg makes sense. 

I'm actually writing a script that extracts parts of HTML pages, but
some pages contain backslashes, which is why the script failed when
massaging those particular pages.

>>>> stuff=r"\colortbl\red0\gn0"
>>>> template = "BLA"
>>>> print re.sub('BLA', re.escape(stuff), template)

That did it :-) Thx a bunch.

Fred.


From theller at python.net  Wed Aug 18 12:10:45 2004
From: theller at python.net (Thomas Heller)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:10:45 +0200
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <jQHUc.1529$2L3.505@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
	<41237124.4060600@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
Message-ID: <r7q4s9yy.fsf@python.net>

Robin Becker <robin at reportlab.com> writes:

> Lucas Raab wrote:
>
>> One thing I've always kind of wondered is what is the average age of a
>> Python programmer?? What age groups use Python?? Something to think
>> about....
>>
> 57, used to build my own logic using gas discharge tubes :)

48, but my first logic was build using 24V relays.


From michele.simionato at gmail.com  Sat Aug  7 03:40:24 2004
From: michele.simionato at gmail.com (Michele Simionato)
Date: 7 Aug 2004 00:40:24 -0700
Subject: decorators and multimethods
Message-ID: <4edc17eb.0408062340.71ab270f@posting.google.com>

Decorators can generate endless debate about syntax, but can also
be put to better use ;)

Actually I was waiting for decorators to play a few tricks that were
syntactically too ugly to be even imaginable for Python 2.3.

One trick is to use decorators to implement multimethods. A while ago
Howard Stearns posted here a recipe to implement generic functions
a.k.a multimethods.

I have not studied his recipe, so don't ask me how it works. All I
did was to add an "addmethod" function and save his code in a module
called genericfunctions.

Decorators allowed me to use the following syntax:

# BEGIN generic functions in Python, example
# use code and examples from Howard Stearns

from genericfunctions import Generic_Function, addmethod

foo = Generic_Function()

@addmethod(object, object, object)
def foo(_, x, y, z):
    return 'default'

@addmethod(int, int, int)
def foo(call_next, x, y, z): 
    return 'all ints , ' + call_next(x, y, z)

@addmethod(object, object)
def foo( _, x, y):
    return 'just two'

print foo # the multimethod table as a dictionary
print foo(1, 2, 'three') # => default
print foo(1, 2, 3) # => all ints, default
print foo(1, 'two')  #> just two
print foo('oops') #=> genericfunctions.NoNextMethod error

# END generic functions in Python, example

Howard Stearns' code is posted here
http://groups.google.it/groups?hl=it&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=40C3BC71.5050206%40charter.net&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dhoward%2Bstearns%2Bgroup:comp.lang.python.*%26hl%3Dit%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dcomp.lang.python.*%26selm%3D40C3BC71.5050206%2540charter.net%26rnum%3D1

I just added the following function:

import sys

def addmethod(*types):
     """sys._getframe hack; works when the generic function is defined
     in the globals namespace."""
     caller_globs = sys._getframe(1).f_globals
     def function2generic(f):
          generic = caller_globs[f.func_name]
          generic[types] = f
          return generic
     return function2generic

Decorators did all the rest ;) Just to add an use case I haven't
seen before.

       Michele Simionato


From news at grauer-online.de  Fri Aug 27 08:36:24 2004
From: news at grauer-online.de (Uwe Grauer)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:36:24 +0200
Subject: Boa Constructor error
In-Reply-To: <4712d252.0408260804.c69cfee@posting.google.com>
References: <4712d252.0408260804.c69cfee@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgn9s9$ao5$1@online.de>

Parano wrote:
> Hi
> 
> I have a recurrent error in Boa Constructor, especially when I try to
> activate code completion: a message box reads "UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii'
> codec can't decode byte 0xaa in position 52: ordinal not in range(128)"
> I couldn't find any google resource on that error.
> 
> I have Python 2.3.3 with Boa Construtor 0.3.1 on Mandrake Linux 10.
> wxPython is from wxPythonGTK-py2.3-2.5.2.7-RH9.i386.rpm
> I also tried wxPythonGTK2-py2.3-2.5.2.7-RH9.i386.rpm but had the same error.
> Those RPMs are from www.wxpython.org where it says that "install and use on
> my Mandrake 9.2 system without any troubles."
> 
> Any tip on this? Thanks in advance

Boa isn't ready for wxPython 2.5.x
Use wxPython 2.4.2.4 instead.

Uwe


From balaji at email.arizona.edu  Thu Aug 26 15:50:11 2004
From: balaji at email.arizona.edu (Balaji)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 12:50:11 -0700
Subject: Newbie question on dictionary!!!
Message-ID: <494182a9.0408261150.a4c767f@posting.google.com>

Hello everybody...

I want to ask a simple question.

Suppose I have an list say g=['a','b','c','d']

and I have an dictionary say k={'b':20,'a':10}

Now I want to sort this dictionary on the basis of the list and if it
doesnt find any of the element in the list then I wud like to replace
it with zero..

so I would like to modify k into {'a':10,'b':20,'c':0,'d':0}

I have tried all the built in associated with dict and lists but was
not able to come up with an solution...

Can anyone help...


From eppstein at ics.uci.edu  Mon Aug 23 17:04:26 2004
From: eppstein at ics.uci.edu (David Eppstein)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:04:26 -0700
Subject: Standard graph API?
References: <slrncik8tm.4g.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
	<YssWc.503921$Gx4.282534@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
	<slrnciklv0.e8q.mlh@furu.idi.ntnu.no>
Message-ID: <eppstein-4A56C8.14042623082004@news.service.uci.edu>

In article <slrnciklv0.e8q.mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no>,
 mlh at furu.idi.ntnu.no (Magnus Lie Hetland) wrote:

> >    Do you have any design thoughts. It would be good to have weighted,
> >directed graphs and depth first traversal.
> 
> I've thought of several alternatives; basically, I just thought about
> defining the "standard" API for the basic abstract data type
> (including weights, direction, labels, colours etc.). Concrete
> implementations and algorithms would be a separate issue.

I would strongly prefer not to have weights or similar attributes as 
part of a graph API.  I would rather have the weights be a separate dict 
or function or whatever passed to the graph algorithm.  The main reason 
is that I might want the same algorithm to be applied to the same graph 
with a different set of weights.

A secondary reason is that we already have in Python a good general 
mechanism (dicts) for associating arbitrary information with objects, I 
don't see a need for reinventing a more specific mechanism for doing so 
when the objects are pieces of graphs and the information is some list 
of weight, label, etc that some graph API designer thinks is sufficient.

I think this may contradict some things I said a year or two ago about 
using a dict-of-dicts representation in which G[v][w] provides the 
weight; I've changed my mind.

-- 
David Eppstein
Computer Science Dept., Univ. of California, Irvine
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/


From fumanchu at amor.org  Fri Aug 20 12:55:47 2004
From: fumanchu at amor.org (Robert Brewer)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:55:47 -0700
Subject: python cgi speedup on iis
Message-ID: <3A81C87DC164034AA4E2DDFE11D258E3022E16@exchange.hqamor.amorhq.net>

Charlie Taylor wrote:
> I'm looking for advice on how to speed up python cgi on 
> Windows IIS without
> going to an application server like Zope/WebWare/CherryPy/etc 
> (i.e. I have
> existing cgi scripts).
> 
> mod_python seems like a good solution for Apache, is there something
> comparable for IIS?
> 
> I notice that ASP scripts run an asp.dll which I believe 
> becomes memory
> resident to speed up VBScript execution.

Yes. Using app protection "Low (IIS Process)" this allows you to keep
Python modules in memory between requests.

> Is there any work on a python.dll anywhere?

There is a beta ISAPI floating around (sorry, Mark H., real busy!):
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=cdf3mb%2418b0%241%40arachne.labyrin
th.net.au


Robert Brewer
MIS
Amor Ministries
fumanchu at amor.org


From ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com  Fri Aug  6 06:23:44 2004
From: ptmcg at austin.rr._bogus_.com (Paul McGuire)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 10:23:44 GMT
Subject: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was Decorator syntax)
References: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DAEAE652E12A1DE01C8C636@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>
	<mailman.1258.1091771072.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <Q_IQc.2025$va2.167@fe1.texas.rr.com>

"Anthony Baxter" <anthonybaxter at gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1258.1091771072.5135.python-list at python.org...
<snip>
> Note that Guido has ruled this form out, in a pretty strong way ("I really
> hate this"[1][2]) so if you want to change his mind, you'll need to come
up with
> arguments as to why he's wrong.
>
> I'm not saying that this isn't possible, more that merely collecting a
concensus
> vote isn't likely to do much. Strong technical arguments are much more
likely
> to work.
>
>
> [1] http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-March/043756.html
> [2] http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/046672.html
> ... and a bunch of other posts in the archives.

In http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-March/043835.html, in
response to Phillip J. Eby's observation that most of the list-after-def
proponents have the most concrete examples, GvR states, "Maybe the
practitioners are so eager to have something usable that they aren't swayed
as much by esthetics."  I'm not sure that any arguments are going to sway
his view of what's esthetic, it sounds more like a subjective/gut reaction.

I'll confess, in the past I *haven't* monitored the pydev list.  Up to now
I've been very comfortable with what I thought was the overall philosophy
for the language, its general cleanness and simplicity of structure.  The
general recoil from all things Perl was generally in alignment with my own
views - truly, some of the commentary on the obscurity and arcaneness of
Perl's wanton use of punctuation helped clarify for me just what it was I
disliked about it.  Perhaps this is what jars me so about the introduction
of the (to me unesthetic) '@'.

So if this really comes down to personal taste, I'm not sure what "technical
argument" will change that.  It seems that all of the really technical
issues have been raised, and, given no clear winner, Guido has fallen back
on esthetics.  It also seems that the passionate rejection at EuroPython of
list-before-def had an influence on him - and I think that this poll was an
attempt at conveying a similar passion against 'at-sign' (as we old folks
call it).

In the interests of putting forth technically-grounded response, I'd point
to the post by daishi (subject: @decorators), that this new syntax breaks
the basic heuristic of using indentation to indicate scope.  What more core
aspect of the language is there?

-- Paul
If I'd wanted to write in Java, I'dve written in Java.
Keep Python Beautiful.




From calidusdk at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 23 12:28:46 2004
From: calidusdk at hotmail.com (Artemisio)
Date: 23 Aug 2004 09:28:46 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <20040819231139.D039A1E4003@bag.python.org>
	<mailman.1999.1092969866.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <6daa8765.0408230828.6bdc2f0e@posting.google.com>

Sakesun Roykiattisak <sakesun at boonthavorn.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1999.1092969866.5135.python-list at python.org>...
> I'm 28. Have been using python for just one year.  I was first 
> introduced to programming when I'm in 11 with 6502 machine (Apple II and 
> Oric-I)
> So far I have 2 epiphany in my programming life. The first time is when 
> I finished chapther 3 of the Design Patterns book.
> The second time is when I finished my first non-trivial python program.
> 
> BTW, The histrogram suggest that python is not being used as the first 
> programming language as much as it should be.
> 
> >
> > I spotted some errors in your list, added new entries, and made a 
> > histogram: http://roelschroeven.net/pythonages/
> >

I am 35. I discovered Python like 2 weeks ago, so I am nor a Python
programmer neither a programmer. But if I compare my very short
Pythonesque user experience to the pointless Basic and VB efforts in
the previous decades, then I know that Python will stay with me for a
long time, so count me in, won't you?


From srijit at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 24 11:03:09 2004
From: srijit at yahoo.com (srijit at yahoo.com)
Date: 24 Aug 2004 08:03:09 -0700
Subject: Query on Boost (Python )
Message-ID: <221d8dbe.0408240703.6d9b08bf@posting.google.com>

Hello,

How will the Boost.Python C++ Wrapper look for structures similar to
one mentioned below?

typedef struct struct_TEMP {
    long            length;    
    char            tempId[24];
    long            count;
  
} TEMP_STRUCT;

I tried to use Pyste but ended up getting the following error :
cannot convert from 'const char [24]' to 'char [24]'

So I am interested to learn how to write a proper interface file
(.pyste) when I am using Pyste.

Regards,
Srijit


From httpd at ncsa.uiuc.edu  Sat Aug 28 05:59:58 2004
From: httpd at ncsa.uiuc.edu (httpd at ncsa.uiuc.edu)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 04:59:58 -0500
Subject: {Virus?} Re: Hello
In-Reply-To: <200408280959.i7S9xm318157@mail.ncsa.uiuc.edu>
References: <200408280959.i7S9xm318157@mail.ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <200408280959.i7S9xwT18266@mail.ncsa.uiuc.edu>

[This message last updated January 21, 1998]

Dear user:

This is an automated message.
The NCSA HTTPd is no longer a supported product.
The web pages <http://hoohoo.ncsa.uiuc.edu> are still available.

        FAQ page:
        <http://httpd.ncsa.uiuc.edu/docs/FAQ.html>

        HyperNews page:
        <http://union.ncsa.uiuc.edu/HyperNews/get/www/ncsa-httpd.html>

Another source of answers to your questions may be the newsgroup

        comp.infosystems.www.servers.unix or
        comp.infosystems.www.providers

Alternatively, the Apache Server (originally based on the NCSA HTTPd, and
still a free server) is still actively developed.  We recommend you take a
look at it <http://www.apache.org> as a possible replacement for the 
NCSA HTTPd.

For information about licensing NCSA HTTPD, contact Jae Allen at
jallen at ncsa.uiuc.edu.


NCSA HTTPd Technical Support


From simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Aug 26 14:35:05 2004
From: simoninusa2001 at yahoo.co.uk (Simon John)
Date: 26 Aug 2004 11:35:05 -0700
Subject: Distributing Python applications - McMillan Installer question
In-Reply-To: <cgl5d5$4u5$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <cglagp$h94@odah37.prod.google.com>

I've built Installer programs on SUSE 9.1 and RedHat9, and they kinda
work across the two platforms - the RH9 one also works on Fedora C1
(but not RH7.3), and the SUSE one works on Linspire 4.5.....

I'd say cx_Freeze is not much difference either, except it seems
cleaner than the import hook used in MMI.

But as far as building on Linux and running on HPUX, no chance, you
might consider Jython/IronPython for that level of portability (or just
supplying source).

Your other option is using a packing system like Apt, RPM, SunPKG etc.
and bundling Python and all dependencies with your program source (or
hoping that the user already has Python installed).

The whole *nix distribution issue is very complicated. Even the C++
guys using Qt at work here have huge issues getting code to work across
HPUX/AIX/Linux/Solaris.



From martindemello at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 22 10:38:23 2004
From: martindemello at yahoo.com (Martin DeMello)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 14:38:23 GMT
Subject: serial iteration over several lists
References: <tgOVc.176766$gE.1703@pd7tw3no>
	<1b5c4527.0408212257.5c9c18b4@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <zd2Wc.184115$J06.164832@pd7tw2no>

Brandon <bmbeck at gmail.com> wrote:
> How about this:
> 
> >>> import itertools
> >>> def mesh_flatten(meshes):
> ...     return itertools.chain(*meshes)
[...]

Thanks - that looks like an excellent starting point. Has there been any
work done on bidirectional iterators?

martin


From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 14:02:16 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 04:02:16 +1000
Subject: PEP 318: Can't we all just get along?
In-Reply-To: <cg24a4$vgd$3@sea.gmane.org>
References: <mailman.1829.1092785390.5135.python-list@python.org>	<65adnQrUKILiC7_cRVn-jQ@powergate.ca>	<mailman.1834.1092791633.5135.python-list@python.org>	<m2vffgd6pu.fsf@unique.fully.qualified.domain.name.yeah.right>	<mailman.1858.1092832530.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Michael.J.Fromberger-6AF702.10114718082004@localhost>	<mailman.1891.1092854353.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Michael.J.Fromberger-FF646E.17492318082004@localhost>	<mailman.1909.1092869465.5135.python-list@python.org>	<Michael.J.Fromberger-F6FD2B.21140718082004@localhost>	<cg1vp4$vgd$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<e69d3ed2040819034652e5089f@mail.gmail.com>
	<cg24a4$vgd$3@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed204081911025720b7fb@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:52:38 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I wrote:
> > Look, name-mangling is horrid, and I don't think anyone's defending it. But
> > at the same time, "name mangling is there" is not an argument for extending
> > the horror to a whole new level.
> >
> > Name mangling only occurs when you create a method with two leading
> > underscores, and no trailing ones. Your proposal would hit _every_ _single_
> > 'def'. It's nasty, it's unpythonic, and there's approximately _zero_ chance of
> > it ever going into the language. Having said that, it's perfectly feasible to do
> > it with a metaclass, and if you want to use it in your code, please, feel free.
> 
> You didn't follow that one with a smiley either... :-)

That's because I wasn't joking, at all. Look, your idea is a _bad_ one. Numerous
people have pointed out why. Let it die.


From donn at u.washington.edu  Mon Aug  9 12:15:36 2004
From: donn at u.washington.edu (Donn Cave)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 09:15:36 -0700
Subject: decorators vs GIL
References: <rtqdnUmcD8bT0ojcRVn-gw@speakeasy.net>
	<mailman.1345.1091924284.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<8YudnZoJ4NdLEYjcRVn-jA@speakeasy.net>
	<0bidnfbR2_PZOIjcRVn-pA@giganews.com>
	<mailman.1350.1091953009.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<41162234$0$32536$626a14ce@news.free.fr>
	<mailman.1358.1091970676.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<411689bd$0$25588$636a15ce@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <donn-7F8657.09153609082004@gnus01.u.washington.edu>

In article <411689bd$0$25588$636a15ce at news.free.fr>,
 Xavier Combelle <xavier_combelle at yahoo.fr> wrote:
> Anthony Baxter wrote:
> >On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 14:57:12 +0200, Xavier Combelle
> ><xavier.combelle at free.fr> wrote:
...
> >Plenty - try this google search:
> >http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Adocs.python.org+GIL
> >for a couple of simple ones, but there's plenty more - google for
> >"python GIL" (or "python free-threading" for patches that were 
> >written against Python 1.4 to remove the single lock. They ended
> >up slowing down Python significantly.

> That is not really surprizing, the GIL is a very simple and very 
> efficient way to manage
> multithreading. After reading, I can't undersand that other interpreted 
> languages don't do the same.
> The use of GIL make that interpreter work as a single thread process.

Right, and other languages do indeed do the same, for
example I believe ocaml has a global lock - even though
compiled to native code, it has the same kind of shared
global state for storage and so forth.

It is very effective, and it works fine for the kinds
of things people usually do today with threads.  If the
computer of the future makes many processors available
for concurrent processing, it won't work quite so well
for that, but who knows what will happen.

I'm not sure if I followed the rest of your post, but
note that Python's thread architecture works well with
blocking I/O.  It just depends on the native code module
that actually posts the I/O request to release the lock
first, and recover it afterwards, so any other threads
that may be waiting can be scheduled.  On the other hand,
there are often better ways to deal with blocking I/O
than threads.

   Donn Cave, donn at u.washington.edu


From grante at visi.com  Tue Aug 17 12:30:07 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 16:30:07 GMT
Subject: Newbie question about file input
References: <cfqj3s$cti$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <cft2f9$ii0$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408171010590.548-100000@ccc4.wpi.edu>
	<cft6vv$khm$1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
Message-ID: <4122328e$0$8079$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-17, Aaron Deskins <ndeskins at ecn.purdue.edu> wrote:

> So why does a linesplit fail after the program reads a blank
> line (or a '\n')?

It doesn't.  It just returns an empty list since there are not
any non-whitespace characters to return.

> Is this simply because there's no way to assign the variable '\n' ?

I don't understand the question.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  It's so OBVIOUS!!
                                  at               
                               visi.com            


From j_mckitrick at bigfoot.com  Wed Aug 18 18:27:31 2004
From: j_mckitrick at bigfoot.com (j_mckitrick)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 15:27:31 -0700
Subject: Problem with floating point precision
References: <mailman.1811.1092758622.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ec6dce8b.0408181427.665df6ef@posting.google.com>

Thank you guys for your help, here and privately.

I knew about floating point precision issues, but never saw it crop up
in my python project until one set of input numbers when 2 values that
should have been the same were not.

thanks!


From newsgroups at jhrothjr.com  Fri Aug  6 09:21:17 2004
From: newsgroups at jhrothjr.com (John Roth)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:21:17 -0400
Subject: tweaking @decorator syntax
References: <b03e80d.0408040809.66c50ecf@posting.google.com><Pine.LNX.4.44.0408041328420.13532-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu>
	<b03e80d.0408050041.1723eb3c@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1195.1091715452.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10h71e2o1u1u46f@news.supernews.com>


"John Marshall" <John.Marshall at ec.gc.ca> wrote in message
news:mailman.1195.1091715452.5135.python-list at python.org...
> On Thu, 2004-08-05 at 08:41, Sandy Norton wrote:
> > On 4 Aug 2004, Christopher T King wrote:
>
> With the current choice and the list of alternatives you gave,
> two things struck me about the location of the decorators
> in the current choice:


>     2) Can decorators easily be extended to apply to class
>        and module?

Since I've never gotten my head around metaclasses,
I suspect that I'd find the ability to simply declare a
function that would "fix" a class at class definition time
to be a real help.

On the other hand, I'm not entirely sure what
you'd use that ability for on the module level.

John Roth




From anthonybaxter at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 00:19:37 2004
From: anthonybaxter at gmail.com (Anthony Baxter)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:19:37 +1000
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <59e9fd3a04082221092ad0fa45@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2166.1093215326.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<tuydneHfMf8L8bTcRVn-sQ@powergate.ca>
	<59e9fd3a04082221092ad0fa45@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e69d3ed2040822211924987a68@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:09:30 +1000, Andrew Durdin <adurdin at gmail.com> wrote:
> C1 was the original proposal; I understood that Guido had written an
> implementation some time ago. The python-dev archives might be useful
> in locating it.

There's a lot more to be done for it - if someone _really_ wants it, they
should dig up the patch, make sure it's up to date, and then complete 
the other bits of it. See the post I made to the thread on J2 for references
to what else needs to be done.

Sorry if this sounds a bit like "put up or shut up", but that's the way it is -
without a complete patch, it's not going to be considered.


From usenet_spam at janc.invalid  Wed Aug 18 14:50:46 2004
From: usenet_spam at janc.invalid (JanC)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:50:46 GMT
Subject: Windows URL protocol handler in python?
References: <cfq0ce$i0r@odak26.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <Xns9549D40EDCA16JanC@213.118.38.197>

john.burton at jbmail.com schreef:

> Is there a way to make a handler in python presumably using the win32
> extensions to handle URLS of a specific type when they are given to
> windows?
> 
> For example if I want to handle
> myprotocol://server/id
> using my own python program?
> Any suggestions or references would be appreciated.

That's just an entry in the Windows registry

As an example, this is how Xnews does it:

------------------------------ news-url.reg ------------------------------
Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\news]
@="URL:news Protocol"
"URL Protocol"=""
"EditFlags"=hex:02,00,00,00

[HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\news\DefaultIcon]
@="\"C:\\Xnews\\Xnews.exe\""

[HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\news\shell]

[HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\news\shell\open]

[HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\news\shell\open\command]
@="\"C:\\Xnews\\Xnews.exe\" /url=\"%1\""
------------------------------ news-url.reg ------------------------------


-- 
JanC

"Be strict when sending and tolerant when receiving."
RFC 1958 - Architectural Principles of the Internet - section 3.9


From c0dec at gmx.de  Sat Aug 28 05:03:56 2004
From: c0dec at gmx.de (Henning Kage)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:03:56 +0200
Subject: Question about references/copies
References: <pan.2004.08.28.07.52.35.422774@gmx.de>
	<mailman.2556.1093680711.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.28.09.03.55.940515@gmx.de>

Am Sat, 28 Aug 2004 18:11:46 +1000 schrieb Anthony Baxter:

> It's all references. If you want a copy, use the copy module.

Ok, thanks.

> A cast? Python has no static typing, so I'm unsure how or why you'd do a cast.

As I said, I'm new to Python and as other languages do support such casts
(as I know, in C# e.g. you have to do such casts if you are iterating
over array lists and have to access the stored objects), I thought of it
in Python too.



From CJohnson at maxis.com  Wed Aug 18 15:20:00 2004
From: CJohnson at maxis.com (Johnson, Corey)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:20:00 -0700
Subject: replace line #1 with "newline\n" in text file
Message-ID: <9D3D7CEF3A236243AF0335652672E34804CAC166@maxis-mb1.max.ad.ea.com>



From noone at nowhere.com  Sun Aug  1 13:42:26 2004
From: noone at nowhere.com (dusty)
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 17:42:26 GMT
Subject: Noob question on PyQt and Qt
Message-ID: <5m9qg0ds0g5c0k9tbgukm965au96rud6tm@4ax.com>

I am learning Python and Qt designer (using eric3). I'm writing an app
using QCheckList and have succeeded in loading parent and children,
with checkboxes, with data from a file.  I want to programmatically
check some boxes depending on the string from the list.

This is the code that I use to create the checkbox's:
 ~~~
  d = QCheckListItem(it, lstI[g:], QCheckListItem.CheckBox)
  self.childlist1.append(d)
 ~~~
The first char in each line in 'lstI' determines if the checkbox
should be checked or not.
How do I change the checkbox to 'On' (checked) in Python code when the
checkbox is created?


From bob at redivi.com  Wed Aug 11 11:29:50 2004
From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:29:50 -0400
Subject: [Python-Dev] A decorator syntax not yet mentioned (I think!)
In-Reply-To: <1092237417.22674.12.camel@mango.cmc.ec.gc.ca>
References: <1092237417.22674.12.camel@mango.cmc.ec.gc.ca>
Message-ID: <492EA476-EBAB-11D8-87F8-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>

On Aug 11, 2004, at 11:16 AM, John Marshall wrote:

> How about the following, which I am almost positive
> has not been suggested:
> -----
> class Klass:
>     def __init__(self, name):
>         self.name = name
>
>     deco meth0:
>         staticmethod
>     def meth0(x):
>         return x
>
>     deco meth1:
>         classmethod
>     def meth1(cls):
>         return cls
>
>     deco sayhello:
>         funcattrs(name='GvR', language='python')
>         log(file='func.log')
>     def sayhello(self):
>         print 'hello python world'
>
> -----
> 1) The decorators clearly apply to a specific method/function,
>    therefore there is no need to do any stack pushing in memory
>    until the method/function definition is done.

None of that code can actually execute until the method/function 
definition is done, how is this different at all?

> 2) The decorators are "outside" of the method/function they
>    decorate:
>    a) which will please those who want the outside location
>    b) will not be folded within the function

Doesn't a) imply b)?

>    c) folding on the decorators can be done so that the
>       def is not obfuscated

This could probably be done with the @syntax too if the editor was 
smart enough

>    d) can be located anywhere in the code--but most likely
>       before the "def ...()"

I don't think that is a bonus at all.

> 3) The sequence in which the decorators are applied is just
>    like code would be--this is certainly intuitive given
>    that we are writing code.

That's not really obvious.

> This approach could also be applied to classes in case
> decorators should ever be extended to them:

So can any of the other proposals.

> -----
> deco Klass:
>     doc("This is a class to ...")
> class Klass:
>     :
>     :
> -----
>
> Any comments?

Yeah, this is no less than twice as bad as any of the current decorator 
proposals because you have to repeat the function name :)

-bob


From sbabbitt at commspeed.net  Fri Aug  6 12:41:11 2004
From: sbabbitt at commspeed.net (Tom B.)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:41:11 -0700
Subject: Queue qsize = unreliable?
References: <mailman.1284.1091808092.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1091810865.449263@news.commspeed.net>


"James R. Saker Jr." <jsaker at americanrelay.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1284.1091808092.5135.python-list at python.org...
> Thanks Peter, Mike & Michael on qsize - had a hunch it might be
> "reliable but not advisable" in the aspect of queue data changing.
>
> Perhaps there's an easier way to accomplish what I'm attempting. I've
> got a syslogd receptor that needs to:
>
> 1. have a thread sit on port 514 and receive input via syslog protocol
> from various sources
>
> 2. receive input and put into a queue (ideally a persistent object so if
> the receptor gets rebooted while there's work in the queue, data isn't
> lost. i like the idea of ZODB's Persistence class for this - thoughts?)
>
> 3. have a thread sit and look for data in the queue. when data is found,
> parse it and fire it off using BEEP to an upstream collector.
>
> I've done an initial version of this using Postgresql for an
> intermediary (and twisted's database interface to deal with blocking
> issues), but having to load Postgresql on a syslog2beep receptor is
> overkill. A ZODB Queue implemented in a threaded app would seem the
> right way to go. Any thoughts?
>
> Jamie
>
I wrote this on another reply just awhile ago but it also applies here,

You should have a look at Pyro (Python Remote Objects) at
http://pyro.sourceforge.net/index.html

"It is an advanced and powerful Distributed Object Technology system written
entirely in Python"

Have a look at the rserve demo for a distributed object and the chat demo
for an event server.

Tom




From bj_666 at gmx.net  Sat Aug 28 15:24:17 2004
From: bj_666 at gmx.net (Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 21:24:17 +0200
Subject: Iteration over Lists and Strings
References: <cUSXc.56768$xi6.42946@fe2.texas.rr.com>
	<mailman.2552.1093664310.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<cgpa73$oa5$1@news-reader2.wanadoo.fr>
	<1gj80xs.1cfownoqz4m9N%aleaxit@yahoo.com>
	<5M4Yc.326126$a24.276550@attbi_s03>
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.28.19.24.15.828916@gmx.net>

In <5M4Yc.326126$a24.276550 at attbi_s03>, Brent W. Hughes wrote:

> Did you say enumerate(seq) takes constant time?  I would have thought it was
> proportional to len(seq).

>>> seq = [1,2,3]
>>> enumerate(seq)
<enumerate object at 0x4039dcec>

I guess creating a enumerate object (generator) takes constant time.  ;-)

Ciao,
	Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch


From pm_mon at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 21 11:57:54 2004
From: pm_mon at yahoo.com (Paul Morrow)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:57:54 -0400
Subject: __metaclass__ and __author__ are already decorators
In-Reply-To: <59e9fd3a040821082410ac872d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cg7mo9$r8r$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<59e9fd3a040821082410ac872d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cg7re2$r8r$3@sea.gmane.org>

Andrew Durdin wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:38:01 -0400, Paul Morrow <pm_mon at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>Thinking about decorators, and looking at what we are already doing in
>>our Python code, it seems that __metaclass__, __author__, __version__,
>>etc. are all examples of decorators.  So we already have a decorator
>>syntax.  What is the compelling reason to invent a new one?  And if we
>>do, what's to become of the old one?
> 
> 
> __author__ and __version in a class (as per your example) are setting
> class attributes, not "decorating" the class anymore than the def's
> that declare instance methods are.
> Within a function, __author__ and __version__ are local variables, and
> nothing more; specifically, assigning to them does *not* set function
> attributes:
> 
>   >>> def foo():
>   ...     __author__ = "me"
>   ...     return 5
>   ...
>   >>> print foo.__author__
>   Traceback (most recent call last):
>     File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
>   AttributeError: 'function' object has no attribute '__author__'
>   >>> print foo.func_code.co_varnames
>   ('__author__',)
> 

That's right.  But we don't *use* __author__, __version__, etc. as class 
attributes --- we use them to supply metadata for the class.  By that I 
mean that we don't intend for those attributes to be referenced by any 
methods of the class or users of the class.  Those attributes are there 
strictly to supply information about the class.  To 'decorate' the class.

So the Python system will have to be changed to support this new way of 
thinking about __xxx__ attributes.  They should no longer appear as 
local variables of a class or method, but instead as (meta) attributes 
of the class or method itself.  So in your example

     def foo():
         __author__ = "me"
         return 5

would be the same as

     def foo():
         return 5

     foo.__author__ = "me"



> __metaclass__ on the other hand is a magic attribute. I haven't worked
> out the details, but I have the feeling that what a metaclass does to
> a class is not replicable merely by decorating the class; in other
> words, that:
> 
>   class Foo:
>       __metaclass__ = Bar
> 
> is *not* equivalent to
> 
>   class Foo:
>       pass
> 
>   Foo = Baz(Foo)
> 
> for any definitions of Bar and Baz. This is just my intuition, however.

Well, although it amounts to roughly the same thing

     class Foo:
         __metaclass__ = Bar

would actually equate to either

     class Foo:
         pass

     Foo = metaclass(Foo, Bar)

or

     class Foo:
         pass

     metaclass(Foo, Bar)

depending on whether we decide that decorator functions should return 
new classes/functions (treating the decorated class/function as 
immutable), or allow them to modify the decorated function in place, in 
which case I guess they'd return None.

Either way, I *can* imagine a definition of metaclass that could 
properly make Bar the metaclass of Foo.




From kylotan at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 29 10:02:44 2004
From: kylotan at hotmail.com (Kylotan)
Date: 29 Aug 2004 07:02:44 -0700
Subject: Help req: py2exe's compiled executables only working with XP
References: <173c23bb.0408282105.4cd76e07@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <153fa67.0408290602.10b80c47@posting.google.com>

mattjensen at timetospare.net (Matthew K Jensen) wrote in message news:<173c23bb.0408282105.4cd76e07 at posting.google.com>...
> I am a young programmer with his big break on the line. For some
> reason, small apps that I've written and compiled on an XP machine
> won't work on anything but XP machines.

A better definition of what is going wrong than "won't work" is
needed. Do the apps not run at all? Do they crash? Can you view the
standard output/error streams to see if something is being written
there?

Bear in mind that py2exe doesn't produce compiled executables like
those a C++ compiler might. It's more of an executable archive and all
the files are right there. You can even open it up in an archiving
program to check that all the relevant dlls and so on are added.
Running a dependency-checker tool on some of those might reveal that
you're relying on XP-only features, although that's usually evident
from the Python code.

-- 
Ben Sizer


From greg at invalid.invalid  Thu Aug  5 23:36:11 2004
From: greg at invalid.invalid (Greg Krohn)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 03:36:11 GMT
Subject: Poll - Vote here for "list-after-def" (was Decorator syntax)
In-Reply-To: <6LWdnZCpvI7Ico_cRVn-hw@giganews.com>
References: <6LWdnZCpvI7Ico_cRVn-hw@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <L0DQc.10331$cK.3791@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>

Istvan Albert wrote:
> Paul McGuire wrote:
> > Please reconsider the "def f() [classmethod]:" construct.

I concur.

The @ construct is atrocious and *very* unpythonic. I would choose no 
changes at all over implementing the @ construct. list-after-def is 
much, much, *much* better.


Greg Krohn
(I feel more strongly about this than I did (do) about PEP 308.)


From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 24 10:07:45 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:07:45 -0400
Subject: I've seen things you people wouldn't believe... ;-) (was Re: age
 of Python programmers)
In-Reply-To: <njemi0hrm3jb1kdc8mhg8krd9a4qu3e894@4ax.com>
References: <20040819231139.D039A1E4003@bag.python.org>
	<mailman.1999.1092969866.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<eyqWc.223375$j62.10948731@phobos.telenet-ops.be>
	<qVAWc.2328$MR2.9560@news1.mts.net>
	<njemi0hrm3jb1kdc8mhg8krd9a4qu3e894@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <896dnZfdH8-l1rbcRVn-qw@powergate.ca>

Andrea Griffini wrote:
> I think that *most* professional
> programmers are not regular readers of usenet newsgroups
> about the languages they use... not only that... IMO in
> the bigger part they don't actually know what usenet
> newsgroups are. And most didn't even read any book on the
> languages and tools they use unless that happened when
> they were still at school.
> 
> I've personally lived totally absurd situations where
> experienced programmers were just spending a lot of time
> and energy (and were making a lot of mistakes) because
> they never heard about make tools. I'm NOT kidding.
> 
> I've seen things you people wouldn't believe... ;-)

I think many of us would believe it.  We've been there.

How many could post stories of companies without
any form of revision control, except perhaps those
printouts in Winnifred's bottom drawer from last year?

Or people who resorted to print statements during
a ten-hour debugging session when they had a convenient,
powerful, and easy to use source level debugger sitting
on their machine and a programmer at the next desk who
knew how to use it and could have found the failing
code in about five minutes.

Or ...  well, I posted this mainly to change the
thread subject so that if this turns into another mega
thread it won't pollute the excellent "age of Python"
programmer thread. ;-)

-Peter


From sharidas at zeomega.com  Fri Aug 13 00:54:13 2004
From: sharidas at zeomega.com (Satchidanand Haridas)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 10:24:13 +0530
Subject: while and if
In-Reply-To: <e0197c1847cb38af22dceeb8aaa6e679@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>
References: <e0197c1847cb38af22dceeb8aaa6e679@localhost.talkaboutprogramming.com>
Message-ID: <411C4975.1030803@zeomega.com>


Calvin79 wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I'm very new to python, but believe in learning from examples. So could
>someone please help me with this?
>
>I choose a number of 'things' I want 
>
>Number = input("Number of things (1-8)? ")
>things = ['1', '2', '3', '4', '5', '6', '7',\
>'8']
>
>>From there I want to take at random a letter and do this n times depending
>on the number I gave.
>
>choice = choice('abcd')
>
>The final answer if say the number had been 5 to look something like;
>
>choice 1 = d
>choice 2 = c
>choice 3 = a
>choice 4 = d
>choice 5 = b
>etc...
>
>I can sort of see how to use the while loop for int but not to keep
>choosing from the list and lable it choice 1 etc...
>
>Thanks for any help,
>
>Calvin 
>
>  
>
The following code does what I think you want to do:

<code>
import random

things = range(int(raw_input("Number of things (1-8)? ")))

for x in things:
    print "choice ",x+1, " is ", random.choice('abcd')

</code>

Regards,
Satchit


----
Satchidanand Haridas (sharidas at zeomega dot com)

ZeOmega (www.zeomega.com)
Open  Minds' Open Solutions

#20,Rajalakshmi Plaza,
South End Road,
Basavanagudi,
Bangalore-560 004, India




From peter at engcorp.com  Wed Aug  4 08:10:47 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 08:10:47 -0400
Subject: asyncore, asynchat and threads
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1109.1091585320.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.1108.1091583968.5135.python-list@python.org>	<7cKdnShvevY_3Y3cRVn-iA@powergate.ca>
	<mailman.1109.1091585320.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <WcmdnQrlEdLXT43cRVn-pw@powergate.ca>

Joshua Moore-Oliva wrote:

> I have to not return any data until there is data to 
 > return for that specific connection.  If there is some
 > way to send data down a asynchat
> socket from another thread (thread-safely), or to 
 > somehow wake up an asynchat class, that would be great.

It's been years since I used asyncore (I find Twisted much
simpler to use) but at least in theory such a thing is
possible.  Twisted has a callFromThread() method that can
be used to get a callback in another thread to be called
from the "reactor" (the equivalent of the asyncore core
loop), which would do what you want.  Asyncore might have
similar facilities.

I don't _fully_ grasp what you are doing, and I don't work
well without pictures in such cases (got a whiteboard handy?
draw a picture and send me a digital photo :-), but so
far it doesn't sound like you have anything approaching
unusual, compared to many other applications I've seen doing
the sorts of things yours seems to be doing.

-Peter


From peter at engcorp.com  Fri Aug  6 19:06:07 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 19:06:07 -0400
Subject: Importance of C# (was Re: IronPython-0.6 is now available!)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1318.1091832179.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <278de0e.0407281353.27b6a457@posting.google.com>	<ce9cp3$g39$1@bagan.srce.hr>	<5dydnZSDZaARoZXcRVn-ug@powergate.ca>	<gmint1-db3.ln1@lairds.us>	<9418be08.0407292114.129c856f@posting.google.com>
	<mailman.1318.1091832179.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <aZOdnamc0Pt9k4ncRVn-sg@powergate.ca>

Indrek Kruusa wrote:

> A little comparison of C#, perl and python here (Speed test in menu):
> 
> http://www.tuleriit.ee/progs/

After a quick glance over it, I would say that is not Python!

Or rather, it's just the same C# code implemented in primitive
Python that doesn't try to take advantage of the libraries
that exist (except for time.strptime).

There is a "csv" module which should eliminate much of the
drudgery of parsing the csv files containing the data.
I suspect there are some other significant improvements
that could be made as well.

Language comparison is a hard thing: what happens when you
pick a test case that can be handled much more easily in
one language than in another?  Do you pick a new test case,
or write inefficient code that no programmer experienced in that
language would actually write?   I'm not sure of the answer...
but would probably be helpful to explain which choices you
have made, so as not to mislead readers who are unfamiliar
with one of the languages.  (For example, I suspect the Perl
code could be much shorter as well, but I don't know much
Perl so I couldn't say.  What I do see there would give me
no reason at all to consider Perl instead of C# or Python.)

-Peter


From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Aug  4 13:12:18 2004
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 19:12:18 +0200
Subject: help: Unit test fixture returning the same object
References: <9895e897.0408031533.26720ba0@posting.google.com>
	<nKGdnfWEjOtspo3cRVn-qg@powergate.ca>
	<9895e897.0408040851.21ac7caa@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cer5dj$ovf$03$1@news.t-online.com>

Michael McCracken wrote:

> I did try the global count idea, and I did get an increasing count,
> despite the same id oddity. So new instances seem to be getting
> created, with the same data structures. I don't think I'm accidentally
> using class variables, and that is the only thing I can think of. Any
> more tips?

1 Make a minimal script showing the offensive behaviour
2 Post it on c.l.py

Incidentally, step 2 is often unnecessary, because the error (if any) is
found in 1 :-)

More concrete, you could inhibit garbage collection of File instances by
keeping old files around, e. g. in a global list. If ids are still the same
you are definitely seeing the effect of a coding error.

Peter


From peter at engcorp.com  Sun Aug 22 11:30:15 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:30:15 -0400
Subject: On consensus decision-making (was Re: Alternative decorator syntax
 - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WEDONE?)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2153.1093185119.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.2153.1093185119.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <z-adnRDpSpoTJrXcRVn-iw@powergate.ca>

Robert Brewer wrote:

> Doug Holton wrote:
>>Just make a poll with J2 vs. C1 and see what you find.
> 
> I don't see the point at this stage. I've put 20 hours into a document
> for J2 this weekend, and would really like to start working on consensus
> for it now. If you want to write a similar document for C1, feel free.
> The time for voting is over, IMO.

The voting was merely to narrow down the choices.  It seems
pretty clear there are now only three candidates in the running,
the @pie syntax plus J2 and C1.  The latter doesn't yet have
an implementation, which is almost certainly its biggest
disadvantage (and not that more people voted for J2 than for
it).

I suspect many of the J2 and C1 people would actually not "block"
a decision to go with either one versus @pie.  I'm not sure
how many people would like to block @pie or either or both of
the other two options.  In the end, we already know that the
final decision is (thankfully) made by the BDFL based on his
own good judgement, so voting becomes less and less valuable
at this stage.  (In consensus building, a "block" basically says
that someone would refuse to support the community decision,
while 100% consensus means no one blocks the decision even
though some people may not feel it reflects their first choice.)

By the way, I found a page that appears nicely to sum up the
ideas behind consensus decision-making.  It's interesting that
it says "don't vote" near the end, but I believe that ignores
the utility of a choice-narrowing vote as we have had.  It
does suggest nobody should be considering this vote to have
any weight in terms of directly determining the final decision.

   http://www.coreroi.com/consensus.htm

-Peter


From luismg at gmx.net  Wed Aug 18 13:21:50 2004
From: luismg at gmx.net (Neuruss)
Date: 18 Aug 2004 10:21:50 -0700
Subject: age of Python programmers
References: <mailman.1859.1092833285.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <278de0e.0408180921.6bbe064a@posting.google.com>

34, and I hope the loop keeps on adding 1 for a long time...


From grante at visi.com  Mon Aug 30 14:03:15 2004
From: grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 18:03:15 GMT
Subject: "Content-Length" header
References: <cgvph9$err@odbk17.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <41336be3$0$8079$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>

On 2004-08-30, Justin <justin__devine at hotmail.com> wrote:

> I have a program that downloads files from the web.  There are
> instances in which a .info() will not return a "Content-length" header
> to me.  Is ther a way to specifically request this header or FORCE it
> to be sent?  I know there is some way to get the file size for these
> files because Internet Explorer is capable of determining the size on a
> cut / paste of the same exact url.

Didn't like the answers you were getting in the other thread?

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  If elected, Zippy
                                  at               pledges to each and every
                               visi.com            American a 55-year-old
                                                   houseboy...


From http  Wed Aug 25 16:24:57 2004
From: http (Paul Rubin)
Date: 25 Aug 2004 13:24:57 -0700
Subject: authentication service for unix
References: <cgiqb2$2h4$01$1@news.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <7xn00jt17q.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

"Diez B. Roggisch" <deetsNOSPAM at web.de> writes:
> I'm looking for a method to authenticate users for a corba application
> server, running under linux. I want to be able to authenticate users that
> are valid unix users. Having role/group information would be nice later on.

AF_UNIX sockets under Linux provide an "ancillary message" operation
that lets you check the user id of the process at the other end of a
socket.  Unfortunately, Python's socket module doesn't support that
operation.  I have a Sourceforge bug in about it and may someday get
around to writing a patch, but of course you're welcome to do it first ;).


From mark_bottjer at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 12 13:17:59 2004
From: mark_bottjer at hotmail.com (Mark Bottjer)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:17:59 -0400
Subject: PEP318
In-Reply-To: <roy-DC33F4.12335012082004@reader1.panix.com>
References: <mailman.1522.1092250884.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<20040812090056.00001e31@titan>
	<7ttmh0t8c3cogtbhhnp1ohqu8b51pda461@4ax.com>
	<roy-DC33F4.12335012082004@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <411ba648@nntp.zianet.com>

Roy Smith wrote:
> A solution to that is to factor out the function definition from the 
> name binding, so you would do something like:
> 
> foo = def ():
>    whatever
> 
> although by the time you do that, you might as well have just gotten rid 
> of def and used lambda() directly.  If you wanted it to be a 
> static/class method, you would do:
> 
> foo = staticmethod_def ():
>    whatever

I agree that this seems to be the cleanest solution, but I also agree 
with you that it is a non-starter. Maybe when we get subclassable 
statements in Python 3.0. :)

   -- Mark


From pwatson at redlinepy.com  Thu Aug 19 11:14:55 2004
From: pwatson at redlinepy.com (Paul Watson)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:14:55 -0500
Subject: newbie
References: <mailman.1958.1092926275.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2ojufgF9efhjU1@uni-berlin.de>


"JASON JESSO" <jesso1607 at rogers.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1958.1092926275.5135.python-list at python.org...
> I'm trying to add a mode to a mkdir program a got off
> the python cookbook.
>
> The error I get is:
> ./mkdir.py jason 0777
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "./mkdir.py", line 31, in ?
>     _mkdir( sys.argv[1], sys.argv[2] )
>   File "./mkdir.py", line 25, in _mkdir
>     os.mkdir( newdir, mode )
> TypeError: an integer is required
>
> When I convert the mode from a string to an octal with
> oct(int(sys.argv[2])) the permissions are all screwed
> up.

Specifying the base on int() suggested by Peter is probably the
best way.  Here is another.

$ python
Python 2.1 (#1, May 23 2003, 11:43:56) [C] on aix4
Type "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import string
>>> s = '0777'
>>> v = string.atoi(s, 8)
>>> v
511
>>> oct(v)
'0777'




From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 12 09:04:44 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:04:44 -0400
Subject: The winner of the Python Decorator Poll is...
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1560.1092315156.5135.python-list@python.org>
References: <Ue-dnX0CBNhaEYfcRVn-ig@comcast.com>	<mailman.1533.1092259988.5135.python-list@python.org>	<4edc17eb.0408112052.1bbd85b3@posting.google.com>	<59e9fd3a04081122235b3d9145@mail.gmail.com>
	<mailman.1560.1092315156.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <AK2dnevSUMlx94bcRVn-iw@powergate.ca>

Christopher A. Craig wrote:

> Andrew Durdin <adurdin at gmail.com> writes:
>>Since you like the current proposal, why *didn't* you vote for it (it
>>was the first one)?
> 
> I didn't vote for it because I sit comfortable in the knowledge that
> Guido will ignore the poll results.

But he won't ignore a consensus proposal, and one step to
forming a consensus is discussing the alternatives and
understanding the ideas of others.  Polls can help us
do that, and can also make the discussion more efficient
and focused if it shows clearly than certain alternatives
are much disliked, as it may reduce discussion of those
alternatives as its proponents realize it is less likely
to win out.  Given the number of people still suggesting
alternatives that have already been suggested and rejected,
it can only help...

-Peter


From steveo at eircom.net  Sat Aug 28 16:34:07 2004
From: steveo at eircom.net (Steve O'Hara-Smith)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 21:34:07 +0100
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<776e0325.0408260433.449660c8@posting.google.com>
	<412dfc1c$0$65599$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<86hdqpriww.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com>
	<412e199e$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<jdoherty-2708041631070001@192.168.2.178>
Message-ID: <20040828213407.18cc9f1e.steveo@eircom.net>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:31:07 -0500
jdoherty at nowhere.null.not (John Doherty) wrote:

> In article <412e199e$0$8076$a1866201 at newsreader.visi.com>, Grant Edwards
> <grante at visi.com> wrote:

> > Of course, but are they consistently indented using tabs or
> > spaces?
> 
> AND HOW MANY SPACES PER TAB STOP?

	One half inch is my preference for tab stops usually. A tab is a
tab and not some number of spaces.

-- 
C:>WIN                                      |   Directable Mirror Arrays
The computer obeys and wins.                | A better way to focus the sun
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    licences available see
                                            |    http://www.sohara.org/


From gh at ghaering.de  Mon Aug  2 18:13:33 2004
From: gh at ghaering.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gerhard_H=E4ring?=)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 00:13:33 +0200
Subject: MySQLdb select
In-Reply-To: <971323274247EB44B9A01D0A3B424C850B332555@FTWMLVEM02.e2k.ad.ge.com>
References: <971323274247EB44B9A01D0A3B424C850B332555@FTWMLVEM02.e2k.ad.ge.com>
Message-ID: <410EBC8D.4060909@ghaering.de>

Raaijmakers, Vincent (GE Infrastructure) wrote:
> I'm so glad that this issue is raised here.
> Can someone help me in this thread explaining me how to use multiple parameters.
> Jaco helped me already a lot and perhaps someone in this thread can give me the final answer:
> 
> My table contains a blob and a bigint for storing images. The table name is also a variable, so the query looks like:
> SQL = "INSERT INTO %s (number, image) VALUES (%s, %s)"
> 
> Well, I get a mysql exception if the execution looks like:
> cursor.execute(SQL, (tableName, aValue, jpgImage))
> 
> The execution only works when I fill out the data until the blob value is a 'left over' as a %s:
> Yes, this looks ugly.. but it works...
> 
> SQL = "INSERT INTO %s (number, image) VALUES (%s," % (tableName, aValue) ## table name and number
> SQL += "%s)" ## left over... only the image
> cursor.execute(SQL, jpgImage)
> 
> Can someone explain this to me?

While the DB-API way of passing parameters was neatly explained in other 
posts in this thread, there are still some places where you need to 
construct SQL manually, like in your case, where you dynamically insert 
the name of the table into your SQL string.

A proper way to solve this task is to do it in two steps (untested code):

SQL = INSERT INTO %s (number, image) VALUES %%s, %%s" % tableName
cursor.execute(SQL, (aValue, jpgImage))

Note that the first line only inserts the table name into the SQL 
string. Because we want to still have 'VALUES %s, %s' in the SQL string 
after applying the % operator, we escape the percent signs with an 
additional percent sign.

Then, in the second line, you can let the DB-API do all the real passing 
  of query parameters for you.

-- Gerhard


From eric_brunel at despammed.com  Thu Aug 26 13:15:48 2004
From: eric_brunel at despammed.com (Eric Brunel)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 19:15:48 +0200
Subject: Distributing Python applications - McMillan Installer question
References: <6f89f4fe.0408260823.3b856a34@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cgl5d5$4u5$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr>

Chris wrote:
> I would like to be able to "package-up" a Python application on my
> development platform (Linux) so that it can be easily distributed and
> installed on Windows and UNIX e.g. HP-UX, AIX etc. I'd rather not use
> Python's disutils.
> I've looked at cx_Freeze but this requires a "base executable" to be
> available for each target platform i.e. I'd need to compile this base
> executable on the target platforms but I don't have access to them
> all.
> I've had a quick look at the McMillan installer and from what I've
> seen It's not clear to me whether this would do the job for me or not?

AFAIK, it won't: you'll also need a base executable compiled for each platform 
you intend to run on, so you'll need an access to each machine type. And if 
McMillan Installer works quite well on Intel platforms (Windows and various 
Linuces), I've had some issues on Solaris that required some adjustements in the 
Installer's source code and a lot of help from Gordon. So don't expect something 
working "out of the box" on HP-UX or AIX...
-- 
- Eric Brunel <eric (underscore) brunel (at) despammed (dot) com> -
PragmaDev : Real Time Software Development Tools - http://www.pragmadev.com



From a9605473 at unet.univie.ac.at  Tue Aug  3 07:29:44 2004
From: a9605473 at unet.univie.ac.at (Gaubitzer Erwin)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 13:29:44 +0200
Subject: How to dynamically access Numeric subarrays
Message-ID: <pan.2004.08.03.11.29.43.247284@unet.univie.ac.at>

Hi there

I wrote a short program which reads scientific data from
a file and stores its values in a Numeric array.
At the same time it reads the names of its dimensions which
are then in the same order as the indices of the Numeric
array.

After then I want to access the data in the array by its name
the way that I keep all indices at constant values except the
one I want to read out which I am slicing.

The problem is that the input data varies in its dimensions
so my wanted data can appear at different positions of the
array. I tried to create a list with the slice on the appropriate position
to use it as indices list in the array but this failed.

So my questions to out there:
How can I extract a (Numeric Python) subarray whose indices
have to be built dynamically.

Thanks in advance

Erwin


From mwh at python.net  Wed Aug 18 10:48:41 2004
From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:48:41 GMT
Subject: Why is SETUP_FINALLY uninterruptable[sic]?
References: <2JmdnSiV4NZzGL_cRVn-pg@lmi.net>
	<mailman.1836.1092794238.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<DcmdnQ_4TvyKQ7_cRVn-pg@lmi.net>
Message-ID: <m3hdr0lcxj.fsf@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>

"David Pokorny" <davebrok at soda.csua.berkeley.edu> writes:

> "Jeff Epler" <jepler at unpythonic.net> wrote in message
> news:mailman.1836.1092794238.5135.python-list at python.org...
> 
> >I suspect that this has something to do with code like
> >
> >    l = some_lock()
> >    l.acquire()
> >                    # MARK
> >    try:
> >        something with l held
> >    finally:
> >        l.release()
> >If an asynchronous exception happens betwen l.acquire() and the
> >SETUP_FINALLY opcode (at "MARK") , there's no guarantee that l.release()
> >is executed.
> >
> >This state of affairs always existed with KeyboardInterrupt and/or
> >signals, and it's hard to see how this fixes the problem if l.acquire()
> >is Python code, but I think that's what's going on.
> 
> I would belive you, but there is a trivial modification that circumvents
> this problem:
> 
> ---begin---
> mylock = some_lock()
> 
> try:
>     mylock.acquire()
>     something with mylock held
> finally:
>     mylock.release()
> ---end---

Huh?  If you typo the first mylock, or the acquire() call fails for
some reason, that doesn't do what you want.

Cheers,
mwh

-- 
  Famous remarks are very seldom quoted correctly.
                                                    -- Simeon Strunsky


From tim.peters at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 13:39:48 2004
From: tim.peters at gmail.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:39:48 -0400
Subject: [Python-Dev] RELEASED Python 2.4, alpha 2
In-Reply-To: <411241F5.3080602@v.loewis.de>
References: <411231C8.3020308@interlink.com.au> <411241F5.3080602@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <1f7befae040805103911610582@mail.gmail.com>

[Martin v. L?wis]
> The Windows installer should support upgrading from a previous Python
> 2.4 installation. If you have previously installed 2.4a1, you may try
> this out; please report any problems you find.

I tried that, and it seemed to work well, although it took a while.

One glitch:  I'm pretty sure I selected "install only for me" in the
first screen.  I wanted to go back to check, but it doesn't seem
possible to go back to the first screen.  Anyway, the Python DLL ended
up in a system directory, and that's "the glitch".  I expected/wanted
it to end up in my Python directory.


From h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no  Mon Aug  2 17:11:31 2004
From: h.b.furuseth at usit.uio.no (Hallvard B Furuseth)
Date: 02 Aug 2004 23:11:31 +0200
Subject: __coerce__ vs. new-style classes
References: <HBF.20040802t150@bombur.uio.no>
	<10gstrc1n27m8e8@news.supernews.com>
	<HBF.20040802pmad@bombur.uio.no>
Message-ID: <HBF.20040802nl5g@bombur.uio.no>

I wrote:

> Without __coerce__, what should __add__(self, other) do if it doesn't
> know how to add the arguments, but the other argument might know how?
> It can't just call other.__radd__(self): That might give up and call
> __add__ again.

Uh... please pretend I didn't say that.
You are right, I haven't gotten coerce() straight yet.

> In some cases it might help to call coerce() by hand, but I note the
> ref manual says 'In Python 3.0, coercion will not be supported.'.

Even so, coerce() by hand seems pretty cumbersome.  The code I could
come up with for the general case is as follows.  Am I missing something
again?

    class Myclass(object):
        def __add__(self, other):
            if not isinstance(other, Myclass):
                newself, other = coerce(self, other)
                if newself != self:
                    return newself.__add__(other)
                # Or maybe the above should test if
                # newself.__class__ != self.__class__, and do
                # self = newself if they have the same class.
            ...real __add__(Myclass, Myclass) starts here...

-- 
Hallvard


From nomail at nospam.no  Wed Aug 18 04:19:48 2004
From: nomail at nospam.no (Dominic)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 10:19:48 +0200
Subject: Generators versus Coroutines
In-Reply-To: <1a517b5.0408170923.48f6d964@posting.google.com>
References: <mailman.1779.1092728873.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<1a517b5.0408170923.48f6d964@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <cfv3cj$iqj$1@news.uni-kl.de>


> I've seen servers that rock written with explicit event handling,
> threads, processes, and occasionally co-routines.  Where are the
> great generator-based servers?
Well, the Erlang (language + telecom platform) uses light-weight
threads which could e.g. be implemented with coroutines in Python.
   Event handling is fine but you could also explicitly code
your behaviour as state machines ;-) The drawback of event
handling is that you have to separate state and control flow
and resuming is error prone whereas generators and coroutines
are easier and feel more natural. Especially in simulations
where you need lots of active entities, there is hardly a
way around light-weight and deterministic concurrency.
Take the SIMULA language as an example for the
combination of simulation and coroutines.

Ciao,
  Dominic


From justin__devine at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 30 17:31:54 2004
From: justin__devine at hotmail.com (Justin)
Date: 30 Aug 2004 14:31:54 -0700
Subject: Size of a remote URL
In-Reply-To: <41339697$0$65574$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <ch06ca$v17@odak26.prod.google.com>

linklisttype =
['http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~harnad/temp/ariadne-rae.doc',
'http://www.ecs.soto
n.ac.uk/~harnad/temp/ukparl.doc',
'http://www-admn.csun.edu/systech/techsupport/
procedures/2kcleanup.doc']

for y in linklisttype:

temp = urlopen(y)
temp2 = temp.info()
print temp2
temp3 = temp2.getheader("Content-Length")
print temp3
file_sizes.append(temp3)
print file_sizes

RESULT BELOW:

Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 21:28:55 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.27 (Unix)  (Red-Hat/Linux) mod_ssl/2.8.12
OpenSSL/0.9.6b DAV/
1.0.3 PHP/4.3.2 mod_perl/1.26
Connection: close
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
None
[None]

Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 21:28:55 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.27 (Unix)  (Red-Hat/Linux) mod_ssl/2.8.12
OpenSSL/0.9.6b DAV/
1.0.3 PHP/4.3.2 mod_perl/1.26
Connection: close
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
None
[None, None]

Server: NetWare-Enterprise-Web-Server/5.1
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 21:28:55 GMT
Content-type: application/msword
Last-modified: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 22:50:08 GMT
Content-length: 297984
Accept-ranges: bytes
Connection: close
297984
[None, None, '297984']



From paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it  Fri Aug 20 09:11:59 2004
From: paolo.veronelli at yahoo.it (Paolino)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:11:59 +0200
Subject: Alternative decorator syntax decision
In-Reply-To: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
References: <t07Vc.1179$v86.188@fe2.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4125F89F.1070401@yahoo.it>

d2 d2 j2

Thanks for the piece of democracy





From peter at engcorp.com  Tue Aug 24 01:00:07 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 01:00:07 -0400
Subject: Getting at the bits of a 32-bit integer
In-Reply-To: <412aa5a0$0$68775$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
References: <85b54e91.0408231552.75f85727@posting.google.com>
	<pan.2004.08.23.20.16.40.406025@jerf.org>
	<412a98f4$0$65569$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
	<pan.2004.08.23.22.00.38.749194@jerf.org>
	<412aa5a0$0$68775$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>
Message-ID: <L8SdnepkCsRDV7fcRVn-vA@powergate.ca>

Grant Edwards wrote:

>>If you're new to Python and you are twiddling bits, the odds
>>favor the new user falsely importing old paradigms from other
>>languages,
> 
> Probably so.

Especially as the OP didn't say he was trying to break apart
Ethernet headers, serial data streams, or suchlike.  He just
seems to want to grab a few bits for his own purposes, and
like Jeremy I doubt that the need is real (though also like
he I admit the possibility it could be!) and am quite curious
to hear from the OP again...

-Peter


From sandskyfly at hotmail.com  Thu Aug  5 04:41:57 2004
From: sandskyfly at hotmail.com (Sandy Norton)
Date: 5 Aug 2004 01:41:57 -0700
Subject: tweaking @decorator syntax
References: <b03e80d.0408040809.66c50ecf@posting.google.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0408041328420.13532-100000@ccc9.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <b03e80d.0408050041.1723eb3c@posting.google.com>

On 4 Aug 2004, Christopher T King wrote:
    
> Of course, I prefer the nested block idea better (either with a new
> keyword or new syntax), but I don't see those (especially the syntax one) 
> flying anytime soon.

I know further discussion of this topic is feeling futile, but one can only hope.

> Unless someone can come up with an idea everyone can agree on Real Soon 
> Now, I think the whole idea should be dropped and wait until 3.0.  We'll 
> have plenty of time to argue about it then.

Agreed.

> Sorry about the long rant, but it felt good to get that all off my chest.

Please, we need more rants like yours. Now if they could somehow 
collectively become a 'public outcry' (-;

I realize my hasty initial post didn't actually show the present 2.4 form, 
so I've included it and added your variations for the sake of comparison:


Current 2.4b Syntax
-------------------

class Klass:
    def __init__(self, name):
        self.name = name
    
    @staticmethod
    def statmethod1(x):
        return x
    
    @staticmethod
    def statmethod2(y):
        return y
            
    @classmethod
    def classmethod1(cls):
        return cls
    
    @classmethod
    def classmethod2(cls):
        return cls
    
    @funcattrs(name='GvR', language='python')
    @log(file='func.log')
    def sayhello(self):
        print 'hello python world'

    @funcattrs(name='GvR', language='python')
    @log(file='func.log')
    def saygoodbye(self):
        print 'goodbye python world'        


Nested Alternative 1
--------------------

class Klass:
    def __init__(self, name):
        self.name = name
    
    @staticmethod
        def statmethod1(x):
            return x
        
        def statmethod2(y):
            return y
            
    @classmethod
        def classmethod1(cls):
            return cls
        
        def classmethod2(cls):
            return cls
    
    @funcattrs(name='GvR', language='python')
    @log(file='func.log')
        def sayhello(self):
            print 'hello python world'
        
        def saygoodbye(self):
            print 'goodbye python world'        



Nested Alternative 2
--------------------

class Klass:
    def __init__(self, name):
        self.name = name
    
    @staticmethod:
        def statmethod1(x):
            return x
        
        def statmethod2(y):
            return y
            
    @classmethod:
        def classmethod1(cls):
            return cls
        
        def classmethod2(cls):
            return cls
    
    @funcattrs(name='GvR', language='python'), 
        log(file='func.log'):
        
        def sayhello(self):
            print 'hello python world'
        
        def saygoodbye(self):
            print 'goodbye python world'        


Perhaps, you can eliminate the '@' alltogether. This is
definitely my favourite as it reads the way I think:

Nested Alternative 3
--------------------

class Klass:
    def __init__(self, name):
        self.name = name
    
    staticmethod:
        def statmethod1(x):
            return x
        
        def statmethod2(y):
            return y
            
    classmethod:
        def classmethod1(cls):
            return cls
        
        def classmethod2(cls):
            return cls
    
    funcattrs(name='GvR', language='python'),
        log(file='func.log'):
            
        def sayhello(self):
            print 'hello python world'
        
        def saygoodbye(self):
            print 'goodbye python world'        

Alternative 4 (C T King)
------------------------

class Klass:
    def __init__(self, name):
        self.name = name
    
    decorate staticmethod:
        def statmethod1(x):
            return x
        
        def statmethod2(y):
            return y
            
    decorate classmethod:
        def classmethod1(cls):
            return cls
        
        def classmethod2(cls):
            return cls
    
    decorate funcattrs(name='GvR', language='python'),
        log(file='func.log'):
    
        def sayhello(self):
            print 'hello python world'
        
        def saygoodbye(self):
            print 'goodbye python world'    

Alternative 5 (C T King)
------------------------

class Klass:
    def __init__(self, name):
        self.name = name
    
    def statmethod1(x):
        [staticmethod]
        return x
    
    def statmethod2(y):
        [staticmethod]
        return y
            
    def classmethod1(cls):
        [classmethod]
        return cls
    
    def classmethod2(cls):
        [classmethod]
        return cls
    
    def sayhello(self):
        [decorate funcattrs(name='GvR', language='python'),
        log(file='func.log')]
        print 'hello python world'
    
    def saygoodbye(self):
        [decorate funcattrs(name='GvR', language='python'),
        log(file='func.log')]
        print 'goodbye python world'    


Methinks issues arise generally with the nested form 
in the case of:
    - v. long functions
    - using @decorators for annotating type info e.g:
    
        @accepts(int, str)
        @returns(str)
        def func(x, s):
            return s + str(x) 

        But I didn't think that this was the purpose of introducing func 
        decorators in the first place. 
        
        Hey since we are in amateur language design mode , 
        what the heck, let's play with that problem too: 
    
        haskell-like:
            
            int, str -> str
            def funct(x, s):
                return s + str(x) 
            
        boo-like:
    
            def func(x as int, s as str) as str :
                return s + str(x)
                
        a mix:
    
            def func(x as int, s as str) -> str:
                return s + str(x)
        
        examples of excessive colonic punctuation: 
            
            def func(x:int, s:str):
                return (s+str(x)):str
    
            def func(x:int, s:str):str :
                return s+str(x)
    
            def func str:(int:x, str:s):
                return s+str(x)
    
            def func(x:int, s:str):
                return (s+str(x)):str


Sheesh... I'm feeling nauseous and dizzy now so I think I'd better stop
before I crap on my keyboard. 

Language design land is no place for amateurs with feeble tummies.

ciao

Sandy


From michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk  Fri Aug 20 10:10:06 2004
From: michaels at rd.bbc.co.uk (Michael Sparks)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:10:06 +0100
Subject: Decorator keyword options
References: <7knVc.4599$Jn5.3074@fe1.texas.rr.com>
Message-ID: <cg5150$9if$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>

Paul McGuire wrote:
> Please visit the PythonDecorators Wiki
> page, and navigate to section 6.1 Indicators (or follow this link
>
http://www.python.org/moin/PythonDecorators#head-61f608dbce6ba75b2317d7825d8529997f56fc9e
> )
> (not sure how reliable this is?)  I have started numbering the options
> in preparation for another voting thread, if you have other proposals,
> please include them on this Wiki page, along with your +/0/-
> commentary.

A couple of comments I'd personally make...
   * If you look at longer lists of decorators, what strikes me
     personally is that any format is declaring properties of the
     function that follows.
 
   * It's worth considering is ability for people to search effectively
     for what a piece of syntax means, especially if it's something not
     likely to be heavily used by code. (Consider what happens if you
     google for the phrase: to be or not to be)

     For example would "properties" (not listed as an option) give any
     indication that the function is being changed? "decorate" to a
     greater extent does. "modifiers" or "decorators" (call a spade a
     spade?) might be clearer, is just a noun.

A very useful way of dividing up decorators was posted a week or so
back, which formed the structure of section 6. Personally I think
something similar might be useful here:

   * Use noun or verb
      * If noun, singular or plural? (Sheep excepted)
      * If verb, active or passive
   * Hint at properties or actions
   * Whether to link with the def or not.

"decorate" falls into the verb, passive, action category I think.
"modifiers" falls into the noun, plural, property category I think.
"using" would fall into verb, active, action, linked category

Personally I think noun, plural, property is a non-starter for most
situations (eg classmethod, staticmethod). There's probably similar
examples that work well.

Regards,


Michael.
-- 
Michael.Sparks at rd.bbc.co.uk    
British Broadcasting Corporation, Research and Development
Kingswood Warren, Surrey KT20 6NP

This message (and any attachments) may contain personal views
which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.




From BruceEckel at MailBlocks.com  Wed Aug  4 21:00:26 2004
From: BruceEckel at MailBlocks.com (Bruce Eckel)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 19:00:26 -0600
Subject: Decorator syntax (was Re: PEP 318 - PyFIT comments)
In-Reply-To: <slrnch2rs1.6ei.ressler@cheetah.jpl.nasa.gov>
References: <mailman.1162.1091660561.5135.python-list@python.org>
	<slrnch2rs1.6ei.ressler@cheetah.jpl.nasa.gov>
	<1646998998.20040804190026@MailBlocks.com>
Message-ID: <BruceEckel-0KR/tARF8G0EyW+Ph52yjB4DB1GEI+Q@mailblocks.com>

I'll weigh in a little on this one.

This is very similar to attributes/metadata in Java J2SE 5 and in C#.
The thing is, metadata is a little bit weird; it's intentionally
outside of the domain of the 'normal' programming language, because it
expresses things that you can't or shouldn't within the normal
programming language. So you _do_ need an escape mechanism. And it
also takes a little bit of getting used to; it's orthogonal to what
you normally think of as a language feature. But the potential for
metadata features, at least in Java, is very powerful.

I suspect that the influence comes from Java, where they are also
using '@' (I don't recall what C# uses but it's very possibly also
'@'), and this was, I believe, one of the last things put into J2SE
1.5, so (guessing again) I suspect that's why it showed up so late in
Python -- the last thing I saw presented was attributes inside square
braces, and the only question was where they should go.

You can certainly argue that I'm more comfortable with it because I'm
already familiar with and used to the '@' syntax and actually think it
may be an improvement over [] because it may be more flexible -- at
least it is in Java.

I understand that many are uncomfortable with this feature and idea
and syntax, but I think we'll find it has compelling value, and the
fact that it is in both Java and C# (actually, it was invented for C#
by Anders, I believe, and Java is catching up), and that it fills a
need in Java that people were inventing comment syntax for, makes it
worth considering.

Bruce Eckel




From peter at engcorp.com  Thu Aug 26 07:11:57 2004
From: peter at engcorp.com (Peter Hansen)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 07:11:57 -0400
Subject: Larry Wall & Cults
In-Reply-To: <cgkfs3$b87$1@ares.cs.utwente.nl>
References: <7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>
	<VJOdnfiBTci22rDcRVn-gg@adelphia.com>
	<aNidnUSV4-OK4rDcRVn-jA@powergate.ca>
	<cgkfs3$b87$1@ares.cs.utwente.nl>
Message-ID: <Nbudnes8cfDjWLDcRVn-sA@powergate.ca>

Michiel Borkent wrote:

> "Peter Hansen" <peter at engcorp.com> wrote:
>>No, it's Esperanto (universal language) for "troll"...

> Erm, please don't make false propaganda for the language I happen to love
> ;).
> 
> Btw:
> 
> (english-to-esperanto "troll") ==> "trolo"

Pardonu... estis sxerco, evidente!

-Peter


From jnc at ecs.soton.ac.uk  Thu Aug 26 13:26:39 2004
From: jnc at ecs.soton.ac.uk (John Carter)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 18:26:39 +0100
Subject: Call for signatories for J2
References: <mailman.2369.1093452463.5135.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l97si09joouff6as27qvlcvpm0q4pem3ke@4ax.com>

For

John Carter


From martin at v.loewis.de  Mon Aug 23 00:59:43 2004
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 06:59:43 +0200
Subject: 2 GB files
In-Reply-To: <9418be08.0408221427.182a4d30@posting.google.com>
References: <9418be08.0408221427.182a4d30@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <412979be$0$13042$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>

Elbert Lev wrote:
> From postings to this group and other resources I understood that the
> only way to make Python programs to work correctly with files lager
> then 2 GB is building Python interpreter with some "magic spell"
> defines. 

Why do you say that? This is not true.

> I believe, that automatic 64 bit support (large files) can and should
> be included in standard library (on platforms which support this
> feature).

And indeed, this is how Python works.

Regards,
Martin


From hodges7 at cox.net  Thu Aug 12 22:00:40 2004
From: hodges7 at cox.net (Bill Hodges)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 21:00:40 -0500
Subject: undefined symbol: PyUnicodeUCS4_FromUnicode
Message-ID: <MgVSc.316$ni.147@okepread01>

I just build PyQt from sources on Mandrake 10 and tried to run
a le gacy application from a University that
runs in several environments. I detectedno errors on the
configuration or build and the qt.so is the same in the build directory 
as it is in the site-packages/qt.so.

output is:

psyco installed and used
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/site-packages/drt/drt.py", line 40, in ?
     from qt import *
ImportError: /usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/qt.so: undefined symbol: 
PyUnicodeUCS4_FromUnicode

Any pointers on how to resolve?


From dooms at info.LESS.ucl.SPAM.ac.be  Fri Aug 20 08:04:01 2004
From: dooms at info.LESS.ucl.SPAM.ac.be (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gr=E9goire_Dooms?=)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:04:01 +0000
Subject: Rita Sue and Bob too
In-Reply-To: <cg3miq$mkf@odak26.prod.google.com>
References: <cg3miq$mkf@odak26.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <4125ccff$0$62372$5fc3050@dreader2.news.tiscali.nl>

Cyrille Lavigne wrote:
> If you dont want them in order you should do:
> 
>>if "Rita" and "Sue" and "Bob" in list:
>>   print "They were found"
>>else:
>>   print "They are not in the list"

Wrong !
see:

In [6]: 'Rita' and 'Sue' and 'Bob' in ['Bob']
Out[6]: True

> 
> Otherwise:
> 
>>c,a=0,0
>>while c<len(list):
>>   if list[c]=="Rita":
>>       if list[c+1]=="Sue":
>>           if list[c+2]=="Bob":
>>               print "They were found"
>>               a=1
>>   c=c+1
>>if a!=1:
>>   print "they are not in the list"
> 
> but I'm sure there is a better way of doing this.
> 
This second piece of code searches list for the sequence 
['Rita','Sue','Bob'] in this order and without inserts.
It can be rewritten in a more pythonic way :

for i in range(len(l)):
     if l[i:i+3] == ['Rita','Sue','Bob']:
         print 'They were found'
         break
else:
     print 'They were not in the list'

--
Gr?goire Dooms