Computer Programming for Everybody, a Newbie Project

[Ron Stephens]

Tony, I think I can understand your point of view. You make some good
points, and I want to address them one by one:

> "Arthur" <ajsiegel at optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:mailman.1063781063.16709.python-list at python.org...
> > Ron asks -
> >
> > >Any other ideas would be appreciated. Meanwhile, I would be interested
> > >if anyone would offer thoughts on which of the 5 directions for future
> > >activity sound most interesting.
> >
> > Sorry Ron.
> >
> > Can you remind me what the connection to CP4E is, and why you are
>  headlining
> > that slogan in connection with your work.

Tony, you are 100% correct, I did use CP4E as a slogan, and slogan's
have a lot of bad attributes. But, they tend to be remembered, long
after the finer points of an argument are forgotten. If Nietzhche had
not sloganeered wtih "God is dead", and "ubermensch" would he have
received as much attention and had as much effect? Now, Nietzche was
perhaps a blow-hard and arguably his best effects were
counter-reactions, but we all remember him. And far as my connection
to CP4E, it seems a good enough four word acronym for what I am doing,
and it illustrates how Python is enabling me to enjoy the world of
programming much easier and more effectively than I could have with
any other language; and if it works for me, then I am hypothesyzing
that it can work for millions of folks like me.

> >
> > You, as did I with my own project, with sustained effort over a three year
> > period -  starting, let's say from scratch - produced something of which
> > each of us can hopefully be rightfully proud.

Yes, and I am proud of what I am doing. But let me clarify that most
of my three years of hobby effort were spent learning the language;
the honing of the code in my little program was as much a tool and a
motivation for so learning Python; a wedge to keep me going. Also, I
travel a lot in my work, about 50% of the time and all over the world.
When traveling overseas, I am ususally far too tired at night to
program. But I do find reading Python books on long transoceanic
flights to be a perfect passtime, and reading-napping-reading is a
good way for me to learn.

So, I suspect that many folks can and will accomplish considerably
more in 3 years of hobbyist effort than I have. In no way should my
program reflect poorly on others' efforts, you may well have created a
much and pardon me my simpler pleasures.

> >
> > Three years of sustained effort.
> >
> > But we seemed to have taken away different lessons.
> >
> > My expereince led me to look upon the CP4E slogan quite askance.  Yours,
> > apparently, allowed you to embrace it.

Agreed, and I respect your point of view on this. Also, I noticed that
some one on the marketing-python list a few weeks ago made a similar
comment; that he was not too happy about people making too much of
Python's alleged ease of learning, because it devalued the skills of
those professional programmers who need to be fairly paid and make a
living at programming with Python. This seems to me to be a reasonable
position to take, but still, since Guido coined CP4E, I feel justified
in exploring that aspect of Python's nature, and I do find I that the
hypotesis that ease of learning and ease of use might ultimately win
out in the programming field, this resonates with me.

But we certainly still need expert Python programmes, to do the real
work, create the serious business systems, and also to create the
tools that I and others like me use ;-)))

> >
> > It seems to me "everybody" who's imagination is ignited by something to
>  the
> > extent that it carries them through 3 years of sustained effort can expect
> > to be doing "computer programming" somewhere along that line.
> >
> > Not very surprising, really.

Good point. And the same aforementioned marketing-python poster
pointed out that  brain surgery is not for everybody, and that
programming is also not for everybody. And I agree. But the CP4E
slogan is using hyperbole to make a memorable point...that programming
can be usefully extended to a far greater audience. And that learning
as much as one is interested in about the brain, nervous system, and
artificial intelligence does not create a danger that such people will
take scalpels to their loved ones' heads. It's horses for courses, you
know?


> >
> > No slogans helped me along - that I do know.
> >
> > It was three years of sustained effort.
> >
> > For everybody?
> >
> > Are we *required* to embrace that notion?

 LOL. Of course we are not required to embrace any notion. Even if you
advocate curly braces, your welcome in my discussions, but I wont
agree with you ;-)))

> >
> > Yes everybody  - let's say - has that potential. But that was true before
> > Python came along.
> >
> > For some - like myself - Python was a real factor in helping realize that
> > potential. I am a raving fan, in fact.
> >
> > But I do not discount my 3 years of sustained effort as anything less than
>  3
> > years of sustained effort, and seem to  think that that was a bit of
>  factor,
> > as well.

 Hey, I did put in a lot of effort, sustained effort, as you say, and
I do not de-value that. Perhaps one of my primary resaons for admiring
Python so much is that it helped to sustain in me that 3 year effort,
which is no mean feat.

> >
> > And would love to see the CP4E slogan go away now, peacefully and happily.
> >
> > Art
 
Well, I like the CP4E sloagan; but I'm not married to it. One of my
first exposures to Python was a mention of CP4E in some good book
about hackers, primarily Linus Torvalds, but I forget the title. The
author in a later chapter  of that book mentioned Guido's CP4E slogan
and it piqued my interest. But I don't mind some others being turned
off to it.

Look, the main thing is this. My program is trivial, I could have done
more than half of it by simply using an Excel spreadsheet way back 3
years ago. But I wouldn't have , and the Python program, trivially
simple as it is at its roots, raises interesting ideas for extension
and expansion that could just possibly lead to quite interesting uses.
It will still be trivial in most ways, it wont ever earn a buck, but
it could be interesting and useful; and I don't think I would have
been motivated to follow up on any of those ideas in a lesser language
in which the barrier to such exploration was higher than I would want
to pay. Python seems to encourage and reward incremental effort, and
it leads one to explore extentions and improvements to programs
because the language makes it relatively easy to see how to do the
extensions.

And it gives me satisfaction; and, if Python continues to stimulate my
interest and motivation for another 25 years (if I should live so
long...I am 50 already!) then who knows, it just might be a nice
program in 2028 when I pass on. Stranger things have happened.

And how else could I have spent my precious leasure time? Watching TV?
Reading more books? They would have earnd me no more money, and
perhpas simulated my mind less.

But the real payoff, I am sure, is the community. Even reading the
great classics would not have expanded my community of social contacts
and interaction with intellgent, humourous people who help me with my
programs, answer my questions, and enliven my life with discussions I
would have not otherwise been privy to.

And so if I feel bold enough to share my little program with the
newsgroup, and risk the ridicule of showing off my Mickey Mouse side
(as one of my beloved Physics professors used to say), then so be it.

Watching Python grow is a good pastime. If even one other person
benefits from seeing my program, even if it is to suddenly realize and
say to themself "Hey, I could do that a lot better than that" then I
am happy I shared it.

If someone codes a mini-expert system to add to the program, I will be
ecstatic.
And if none of this happens, I am none the worse for wear. 

Cheers Tony,

Ron Stephens