Python syntax in Lisp and Scheme

[Kenny Tilton]

Andrew Dalke wrote:
> Kenny Tilton:
> 
>>I wouldn't take the Greenspun crack too seriously. That's about
>>applications recreating Lisp, not languages copying Lisp features.
> 
> 
> Are you stating that all references of Greenspun's 10th rule,
> when applied to Python, are meant in jest? 

Can't speak for others, but it certainly would be a mistake to apply it 
to another HLL.


> Python isn't doing that.  It's lives in a perfectly good niche wherein
> Lisp is not the most appropriate language.

OK, another Pythonista just told me GVR had greater ambitions. Just 
tellin ya what I hear.



>>You presume that only Lisp gurus can learn Lisp because of the syntax.
> 
> 
> Not at all.  What I said is that Lisp gurus are self-selected to be
> the ones who don't find the syntax to be a problem.  You incorrectly
> assumed the converse to be true.

No, I got that, but I just wrote it kinda convoluted. And that 
self-selection thing is just silly, until people over here:

    http://alu.cliki.net/Kenny's%20RtLS%20Top-Ten

...come back in a month and update their responses to say "Drat! That 
language is every bit as great as I thought it was, but that syntax is 
driving me nuts. I'm outtahere!"

Won't happen, btw. Hell, Tolton loved Lisp even before he picked up some 
editing tips.

You know, I just remembered a relevant experience I had, only with a 
very early release of Dylan during the search I conducted which led to 
Common Lisp, aka The Promised Land.

I actually made a bug report to the Dylan team: "hey, when I hit tab the 
cursor jumps way the hell out here, just inside the IF. I mean, that's 
pretty fucking cool if you meant that to happen, but what's going on?"

:)


> 
> 
>>But methinks a number of folks using Emacs Elisp and Autocad's embedded
>>Lisp are non-professionals.
> 
> 
> Methinks there are a great many more people using the VBA
> interface to AutoCAD than its Lisp interface.  In fact, my friends
> (ex-Autodesk) told me that's the case.

Sheesh, who hasn't been exposed to basic? From my generation, that is. 
:) But no matter, the point is anyone can handled parens if they try for 
more than an hour.


> What does it mean to be "a Lisp"?  Is Python considered "a Lisp"
> for some definitions of Lisp?

lessee:

symbols? no
sexprs? no
code as data as code? no

sorry, charlie.


>>You (Alex?) also worry about groups of programmers and whether what is
>>good for the gurus will be good for the lesser lights.
> 
> 
> If you ever hear me call anyone who is not an expert programmer
> a "lesser light" then I give you -- or anyone else here -- permission
> to smack me cross-side the head.

Boy, you sure can read a lot into a casually chosen cliche. But can we 
clear up once and for all whether these genius scientists are or are not 
as good a programmer as you? I thought I heard Python being recommended 
as better for non-professional programmers.

Mind you, to my horror my carefully trained goalie turned out not to 
scale at all into game play (my fault) so i am back to square one with 
two days to go, so maybe I am not following all this as well as I should.


-- 
http://tilton-technology.com
What?! You are a newbie and you haven't answered my:
  http://alu.cliki.net/The%20Road%20to%20Lisp%20Survey