anything like C++ references?

[Stephen Horne]

On 14 Jul 2003 23:31:56 GMT, kamikaze at kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark
'Kamikaze' Hughes) wrote:

>  It looks like you've almost reached understanding, though you've been
>given a bad start with a very idiosyncratic and monolingual
>understanding of what "computer science" teaches--that was certainly not
>in the classes I took, but apparently yours were different.

Really. My computer science lessons were taught in a way that
respected the source of most of the theory in mathematics -
algorithms, Church's lambda calculus and that kind of stuff.

What did your lessons teach?

>  Since every operation in Python operates on pointers, there's no use
>in having a special syntax for it.  You don't need all the * and & and
>-> line noise.

The point of the thread is not pointers - they are a side issue.

When you use variables, you are using a concept from mathematics. In
mathematics, variables bind to values. All values are immutable.

Python binds variables to objects, not values. For immutable objects
this is an unimportant implementation detail. For mutable objects, it
breaks the mathematical principle of variables being bound to values.

>  Stop trying to make Python into C/C++, and you'll be happier with it.
>Or stop using Python, if you really don't like the design philosophy.
>There are plenty of Algol-derived languages out there.  PHP and
>especially Perl are more C-like in their internal logic, and you might
>find them more pleasant.

This is bogus.

I don't want Python to become C or C++. I want Python to respect
principles that come from mathematics and computer science. Not for
reasons of theory pedanticism, but because the current system can and
does regularly cause confusion and errors.

The fact that Python claims to be a very high level language, and yet
you have to worry about the binding of variables to objects -
something that should be a low level implementation detail - has very
real everyday implications.

Respect the idea of variables binding to values and suddenly the need
for pointers becomes more obvious. You cannot abuse mutable objects to
fake pointer functionality (another everyday fact of Python
programming) if the binding of variables to values (rather than just
objects) is respected.