Python should try to displace Java

[Doug Tolton]

On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:43:08 -0700, "Brandon J. Van Every"
<vanevery at 3DProgrammer.com> wrote:

>I'm going to make a number of points which I'm sure many people will object
>to.  Feel free, but also try not to knee-jerk about them.  As someone who
>programmed DEC Alpha in 1998, and who sees the sorry state of CPUs nowadays,
>I can definitely say that better technology doesn't always win.  In fact, it
>doesn't *usually* win.  Python needs to look to its strategic marketing and
>product positioning if it expects to survive in the rough and tumble world
>of mainstream industry.
Ok, this sounds like a troll to begin with, but I'm bored and
irritable so I'll have a go at it.
Better technology doesn't always win in the short term, however it
almost always wins in the long term.  You are looking at something
from a very narrow time period.  Something that was better 5 years
ago, but sucks today wasn't definitively a better technology.
>
>Points to note:
>
>- in 5 years, nobody will be doing significant amounts of new application
>development in C++.  The writing is on the wall: garbage collection is
>essential.  Any C++ code will be support and legacy libraries.
That's a ridiculous blanket statement.  People will be doing C++
development for a long time beyond that.  There are people still
writing Cobol for crying out loud.  As you said, it's not always about
the best technology, quite frequently it's about what people know, and
there are a lot of people that know and are comfortable with C++
>
>- Microsoft is already implementing said strategy across all levels of the
>company today.  Microsoft developers don't do much C++ development anymore.
>Various upcoming products are being written entirely in C#.
<sigh> just what we need.  More buggy slow products from MS that have
Memory Leaks the size of the Mississippi.  C# is not a good
development platform yet.  Heck they are practically still in the
standard MS beta period.  Everyone knows not to use a MS product on
version 1.0
>
>- The "higher level language" playing field is crowded: C#, Java, Perl, and
>Python.  Mainstream industry does not need and will not make room for 4
>higher level languages.  Any of these languages has to grow at some other
>language's expense.
This statement is really vague, and has almost no factual basis.  If
there were only four programming languages the world would be a very
dull place.  You forgot to mention Delphi, Visual Basic, Power Builder
and a host of others.  There is room for a lot more than 4 programming
languages.
>
>- Python will never displace C# on Windows.  It's Microsoft's home turf and
>you can't fight directly with The Beast.  You will see UNIX boxes running
>Python, not Windows boxes.
That's a bold statement, considering the abysmal adoption rate of C#.
C# isn't the dominant windows programming language currently, rather
its Visual Basic.  Java has far more applications written for Windows
than C# does.  MS really shot themselves in the foot when they went to
dotnet, essentially the adopted the Java platform 8 years after Java.
Now they are playing catchup with an inferior product.  I doubt
they'll ever catch up to Java overall.
>
>- Sun is about to die.  It has done nothing for anyone lately and has no
>further tricks up its sleeve.
People have been saying this for years.  I'll believe it when I see
it.
>
>- Sun has failed to make Java live up to its claims of universality.  Java
>is for all intents and purposes simply a widespread programming language,
>not a portable computing environment.  Portable computing environments are,
>in general, a pipe dream as long as Microsoft is around.  It will always be
>Windows vs. open standards.
They must give you a good edjumacation at the Redmond campus.  Java is
by far the best portable computing environment available.  These
claims are actually laughable.  You might want to actually look at a
technology before you bash it ignorantly next time.  Microsoft is
losing ground *big time* to open standards.  We'll see how things play
out in the next 20 years though.  Open Source will be around that
long, will Microsoft in it's present incarnation?
>
>- Java is proprietary.  Python is open source.  Open Source is the best shot
>that anyone has at competing with Windows.
Java is only semi-proprietary.  It's not the same proprietary you get
when using a MS product, because they are the *only* vendor.  Still, I
agree Open Source is the better way in the long run.
>
>- Perl is open source and sysadmins won't be giving it up any time soon.
>Perl is optimal for their jobs, the capabilities of Python are a non-sell.
Perl is a great language for some things, but it really sucks for
other things.  The Sysadmins I know would love to use Python.  It's
capabilities are a non-sell?  mm...if you think being able to read
your code two days after writing it is a non-sell, well ok.
>
>- Ergo, Java is the weakling of the litter for Python to attack.
No factual basis for this statement.  Java and Python are really
entirely different things.  Python is meant as a scripting language,
Java is a Systems programming language.  It is meant as an alternative
to C++, Python isn't.
>
>- Alternately, if you look at this in real world marketing terms, Python is
>the weakling of the litter that must defend itself.  I know that will make
>various Python idealists upset, but that's the economic reality.  Merit
>doesn't win in this game.  Java is the next weakest langauge so that's whose
>lunch Python should try to eat.
Who does Python have to defend itself against?  Python is Open Source.
The only way it's going to die is if everyone stops developing it and
it stagnates.  If that hapens it will be because something
*significantly* better came along.  Python doesn't have to defend
itself, your Microsoft background is showing through here.  C# is by
far the weakest language of the four.  It is buggy, slow and immature.
It has the smallest user base, the least amount of industry backing
and a community that is rising up against it's benefactor.  I think
you dramatically overstate it's chances.  Historically Microsoft
switches technologies every 3 or 4 years.  That only gives C# about 2
years to go before it's dead in the water like every other MS
"Innovation".
>
>- No, this isn't the appraisal of a Microsoftie who wants to set Python and
>Java at each others' throats to conquer both.  :-)  I'm just offering a
>realistic picture of what your options are, if you don't want to become a
>"gee whiz, wasn't that nice!" technology.  Like I said, I've lived through
>it already.  Don't talk to me about merit carrying the day.  Learn from
>history, or you are doomed to repeat it.
If you subsitute the word propaganda for appraisal, and "highly
dogmatic" for realistic you'd be closer to the mark.  Historically
those with the best technology and the best economic system prevail
against inefficient and inferior models.  Since there wasn't really a
cogent thesis I can't reject it per se, but your arguments are silly
at best.

Oh well, it was fun going through that ridiculous argument.  And it
killed some time while my Sql Script was running.  Thanks for the
diversion.