Newbie: finding the key/index of the min/max element

[Steve Holden]

[Sorry about OutOfLuck Express's inept attempts at quoting here]

"Laura Creighton" <lac at strakt.com> wrote ...
>
[some apologizing from James, accepted by Laura]
> I also sense that you are pissed at me personally, which puzzles me just a
li
> ttle.
> This is the second time you have said offensive things to me though I have
ne
> ver
> directed any comments whatsoever at you.  Perhaps you have a chip on your
sho
> ulder
> about all Americans or men or whatever.

You need to learn to read personal attacks a little more carefully.  In the
n-1 I sent you, among other things, I blasted you for claiming to speak
for all Americans.  While not conclusive, that would provide certain
support to the idea that it is not _all_ Americans I dislike.

[me:] Huh?

All of this was personal.  You can't hide behind 'other men' or 'other
Americans'.  Francois Pinard, Cliff Wells, Steve Holden, Tim Delaney,
I, and I forget who else who helped are not going to sit around idlely
while you turn c.l.p into a 'sarcasm friendly' place.  We will fight
you over this.  This is an extremely interesting and to my mind
important social experiement, and you aren't going to find many people
who will support you in your efforts to turn this place into just
another newsgroup.

If you want one of those, make your own gatewayed mailing list.

[me:] Well, I'm not going to fight anyone if I can help it. I would probably
vote with my feet if it ever became *too* sarcasm-friendly. But my personal
feeling is that James has now had enough of the corners and rough edges
knocked of his c.l.py persona to start fitting in.

> Maybe I remind you of somebody you h
> ated.
> I don't know.  I like to think I have shown that I can roll with the
punches
> and I
> feel I've made a few new friends on this list (some not even Americans).
I
> resolved this morning to try and be more civil, in large part due to your
not
> e
> yesterday.

[me:] Laura: I'm really glad there's something that makes an even worse mess
of other people's postings than  Outlook Express. The above shows a
magnificent disregard for the original text. All that's missing is the
equals signs that signify the Macintosh quoted-printable format in play :-)

Wow!  Thank you so much!  Then it did work. Interesting.  You admired me for
my viciousness, and then resolved to behave better.  Now that was an outcome
I hadn't predicted.  I am going to have to think about this some more.

[me:] It's James' ability to take the heat, and change his tack as a result,
that makes me feel he might eventually become a member of the thought police
^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H socially-responsible poster on
c.l.py.

 Not out of an inability to "take the heat" it but because you mad
> e a
> good point which was hard to disagree with.  However, your continuing to
atta
> ck me
> like this is not a way to encourage me to try and be civil.

Aha.  This is why we don't like sarcasm around here.  Its an attack.  It
works
the same way.

> Your emotionalis
> m left
> you open for a large number of smart-ass remarks, which I respectfully and
wi
> th
> difficulty suppresed.

Yes.  This is a common problem in other newsgroups.  Somebody gets off
one sarcastic crack, and then says 'there, there, calm down, I am being
reasonable now'.  Thus we create a climate where everybody competes to
get the first sarcastic comment off.  This leads to comp.lang.perl as well.

[me:] Well, I guess we should be grateful that you are both restraining
yourselves.

>
> Finally, I am truly puzzled by your Raymond Hettinger reference.  Although
I
> strongly disagree with him, I thought my very sincere reply was respectful
an
> d
> deferential rather than hostile, and I thought it was very much in line
with
> much
> of the nit-picking that goes on here.  I certainly don't wish him any ill
wil
> l, and
> I will cheerfully support any good proposals he puts forth.  But his
justific
> ation
> for his proposal strikes me as pretty empty, as I indicated.  How does one
pr
> operly
> register dissent in your world?  Am I just supposed to blithly agree with
> everything that is said?  Seems that would certainly put me in a distinct
> minority.  If I'm missing something I trust you will point it out.

Lumberjack is a Troll, or quite possibly the alter-ego of one of us.
Right now I don't think that Lumberjack is a problem, and ignoring
Trolls is one of the things we do around here (though sometimes we
have to be reminded of that).  You, however, are a large problem.  You
are proposing to make this a sarcasm-friendly place.  You want us to
lighten-up and toughen-up simultaneously.  You want us to change our
societal norms (hmm, can we consider c.l.p a society?  It sure is a
Förening, <Swedish for Society>, but do you get to use English that
way?) and our entire process for your sake.  You want to make c.l.p a
place where people do not post for fear of _wasting your time_.

[me:] I suppose I consider c.l.py a "milieu". I have to say I think perhaps
your attack on James came a day or two too late. He's a good boy now ;-)

[alternatives to reading c.l.py]

Be creative, inventive, and stop stomping all over our social
experiment.  Among other things, we are training people here, and you
can't truly train people to program well unless they can completely
and unself-consciously present themselves and their works, just being
themselves, doing the best they can.  This is most overwhelming true
when 'the best they can' is objectively 'not very good at all'.  It
takes time for the unskilled to become skilled.  But that is precisely
what the people of c.l.p are giving to each other.  Our valuable time.
Because we think time spent with people here, learning things and helping
other people learn things is _valuable_.

And when we are too busy, we kill threads, or even stop reading news
for a while.  But with the quiet joy and satisfaction that we get knowing
that, however busy we are, somebody in c.l.p. with more time is teaching
somebody else something, right now.

All the busy occasional posters you see here -- old regulars who are now
way too busy -- we don't want them to find comp.lang.perl when they come
back.  That will mean that we failed to manage the space properly.

[me:] Laura, I think what you say about c.l.py is very revealing of your
approach to the group, but you have to accept that a) not everyone knows
about this, and b) some people may take a different approach. Although my
own goals are slightly different, they are not incompatible. But the force
of your response seems a little out of proportion to the offense, almost
like proposing the death penalty for jaywalking.
>
> Oop.  Gotta go fix dinner for the family.

Hope it was good.

[me:] This last piece of social interaction shows hopeful signs. You two
aren't just doing this to troll me, are you?


can-we-say-"lighten-up?"-ly y'rs  - steve
--

Steve Holden: http://www.holdenweb.com/ ; Python Web Programming:
http://pydish.holdenweb.com/pwp/