Zope Documentation (was RE: Python Popularity: Questions and Comments)

[Bruce Eckel]

This is definitely a problem. Part of it, I think, comes from the
fact that application servers in general have been rather difficult
to describe -- several years ago I chaired a panel at the Software
Development conference on app servers and the first question I
asked is "what are they?" I didn't get a good answer, and I didn't
really get a grasp until I started using Zope (and I don't know how
much is app servers in general, and how much is Zope, since I've
only *used* Zope, and Apache with CGIs -- C++, Perl and Python --
before that). I would now describe an app server as "an operating
system for building web applications," and I think this is
different from what J2EE offers (some libraries to help you build
certain types of web apps).

I *can* say that after some struggling with the documentation I've
gotten enough of a grasp to start creating some (to me, anyway)
impressive things; most recently the BackTalk system that is in
"Thinking in Python," which was originally created in Java and
turned out to be awkward to evolve, much easier to create and
evolve in Python/Zope. And someone who works with me has become a
Python and Zope fanatic, and has impressed the heck out of people
who were building sites using Java, because he could do it so much
faster. These aren't the studies that your employer is looking for,
I know. I run into the same issues when I try to explain why Python
works so well. It's an experience that's difficult or impossible to
prove to someone, and yet that doesn't invalidate the experience
(sounds like faith, doesn't it?).

But the initial learning curve is certainly a struggle, and
shouldn't be that way. The Zope corp certainly knows this, but they
seem to have their hands full moving the product forward and
serving their customers.

I changed my entire site to Zope last April, and have been
periodically diving in and acquiring more understanding when I get
the time. But at this point I know of nothing that would allow me
to be as powerful or productive in being able to create web
applications and in just creating and managing the site. Yes, it's
far from perfect but it seems far more productive than anything
else I've looked at.

It might be worth assigning a team member to delve into it for a
few weeks and prototype something. That way you'd have a local
expert to evaluate it rather than relying on marketing hype/unhype.



*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 12/30/01 at 7:55 AM tatebll at aol.com wrote:

>Peter Hansen <peter at engcorp.com> wrote in message
>news:<3C2E55A6.D873E301 at engcorp.com>...
>> Bill Tate wrote:
>> > 
>> > I understand the "zen" thing, 
>> 
>> If you say that, then you don't really understand it. ;-)
>> 
>> > but it's not something that business
>> > people are going to care about when they making a decision
about
>> > whether to use it or not.
>> 
>> As a business person, I take mild exception to that.  I'd rather
>> have "zen" from Zope than "marketing" from Microsoft.
>
>I guess I prefer to see things in the concrete and simple terms
rather
>abstract pieces of marketing bunk like the following from I
suspect a
>soon to be ex-dot.com (perhaps symptomatic you might say of the
>"business" gibberish these past 3 years).  Try not to laugh to
hard:
>
>   "Xxxxxx is the world's first company dedicated to using the
science
>of     experience strategy, design, and technology to create
>extraordinary results    for our clients.
>   
>   Our entire team is committed to transforming our clients'
>businesses through the creation of multi-channel experiences that
>inspire and strengthen dynamic connections among people,
businesses,
>channels, and communities."
>
>Seems pretty clear to me - sign me up!!! :>)
>-- 
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



Most current information can be found at:
http://www.mindview.net/Etc/notes.html
===================
Bruce Eckel    http://www.BruceEckel.com
Contains free electronic books: "Thinking in Java 2e" & "Thinking
in C++ 2e"
Please subscribe to my free newsletter -- just send any email to:
join-eckel-oo-programming at earth.lyris.net
My schedule can be found at:
http://www.mindview.net/Calendar
===================