Deposing Dictators

[Paul Boddie]

"Tim Peters" <tim.one at home.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.997771602.13136.python-list at python.org>...
> 
> I'm afraid it's too late <0.5 wink>.  In response to a msg where I urged you
> repeatedly to read the darn PEP, and spelled out what a small role Alice and
> VPython have played in all this (perhaps seminal, perhaps not, but a drop in
> the bucket regardless), it's still the only thing you talk about.

I can understand Arthur's confusion, though. If you look at the
original posting concerning the patch, it does seem as if VPython was
a strong motivation:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=no&safe=off&th=f469b79854278e6,59&start=0

Guido writes...
>
> I'm cc'ing Bruce Sherwood and Davin Scherer, because they asked for
> this and used a similar implementation in VPython.  When this patch
> (or something not entirely unlike it) is accepted into Python 2.2,
> they will no longer have to maintain their own hacked Python.

For what it's worth, I do know what VPython is, but was never that
interested in downloading it. Perhaps I would have tried it had it not
required patches to the Python interpreter. ;-)

Tim writes...
>
> That's fine, but you should argue with the VPython developers now.  Your
> argument surely isn't with Python's PEP 238, because you've had nothing to
> say about the PEP!  One last time:  VPython is irrelevant to PEP 238 at this
> stage.  If you want to talk about the PEP, cool, but I don't have time to
> care about VPython.

VPython probably is irrelevant to PEP 238 at this stage, apart from
being a project which will benefit directly from the changes brought
about by being pulled into the mainstream. However, it's unfair to
pretend that Arthur has imagined influences that VPython (and Alice)
may have had:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=cp1ynukxmv.fsf%40cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com

Quoting Guido...
>
> "Robert J. Harrison" <rjh at 3-cities.com> writes:
> > Again, my major objection to this proposal is that it gives us
> > nothing and breaks a lot of existing code.
>
> Other educators disagree.  Take the case of VPython.
>
> The VPython folks have used Python very successfully to teach freshman
> physics students at Carnegie Mellon to create 3D models.  Many
> students had little or no programming experience.  The goal of the
> course wasn't to teach programming, it was to teach understanding of
> physics.

Then, later on...
>
> This exactly corroborates the experience of the Alice team (who
> started this discussion).

With revisions 1.10 and 1.12 of the PEP 238 document also as evidence,
I can understand some people wanting to know more about the
*motivations* for the impending changes. Indeed, the motivations are
more interesting to some people than the actual changes themselves,
because they are part of a decision-making process which is
interesting and instructive to observe.

I really shouldn't need to quote parts of messages that are already in
the public domain, but if it means that "light" is contributed to this
discussion, rather than "heat", then I suppose it has to be done.

Paul