[Python-ideas] A bit meta

[Nicholas Chammas]

On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 6:06 PM Stefan Krah <skrah.temporarily at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> > I hope you also recognize that this particular piece of mailing list
> etiquette arose in a time where people did not have nice tooling to do the
> work for them, which is part of the point of this discussion.
>
> Have you actually *used* Gnus, mutt, slrn or even gmane.org? You
> are again stating things with great certainty while I don't think
> you know the subject.
>

I haven't used those tools. It would be enlightening if you explained how
they can address the issues we've been discussing in this thread. That is
what we're discussing here, after all--improving how we discuss things.
I've done my part by explaining the potential benefits that Discourse can
offer us in great detail, because that's what I know.

Regarding "stating things with great certainty", I'm not sure what you're
referring to. I made some arguments, quoted people, and linked to stuff.
Not sure what my crime is there. And my quote about "the older generations
of developers" -- which you sneered at earlier with the "soap box" comment
-- I explicitly prefaced with: "I'll also offer this conjecture: ..."

> OK, did I do it right this time?
>
> No, try replying to one of your own posts on gmane.org and you'll see.
>

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to see on gmane.org. I can see that this
thread is on there, but I can't find the most recent messages.

The way I am quoting you now is: I am hitting "Reply" in Gmail, clearing
out older parts of the thread, and replying inline to what you wrote. It's
pretty simple.

If that's still not correct then I'm not sure how to satisfy you. All I can
say is that I think it would be better if we had a way to solve mundane
issues like this centrally, instead of pushing the responsibility onto each
list user to piece together their own toolchain or workflow for doing the
right thing.

> I think Discourse will make etiquette easier to follow by taking care of
> repetitive tasks like this for people, instead of requiring that everyone
> independently remember to do X, Y, and Z every time they post.
>
> You don't need to: Any of the above options does it automatically.
>

Are Gnus, mutt, and slrn client-side tools? If they are, then we are
pushing this responsibility onto every list user to find and use these
tools correctly.

You also mentioned being able to respond to mail via gmane.org. Is that the
standard way everyone is expected to interact with the list? If not, then
you have the same problem.

Having a modern, web-based forum like Discourse which takes care of
repetitive tasks like this centrally means everyone on the forum
automatically has it taken care of. It's part of the interface of the
forum, and everyone is using the same interface.

Discourse's UX is good enough that in many cases the user *can't* or is
*extremely unlikely* to do the wrong thing when it comes to mundane,
routine things like quoting people, replying, etc. I think that's great.

> And for the record: I’m really taken aback by how cynical your comments
> are, and I apologize for ticking you off. I’ll do a better job of following
> mailing list etiquette going forward.
>
> It's not about the etiquette: If you come in here and tell us
> that our tools are inferior, expect some pushback.
>

I don't think I've bashed anyone's tools on here as "inferior". My
discussion has been limited to Discourse vs. mailing lists. As you yourself
stated, I clearly don't know about tools like Gnus, mutt, and so forth, and
I'm not going to bash something I don't know.

I *have* been arguing that a modern web-based forum solves common
discussion issues in a way that mailing lists cannot match. But I think my
arguments have been dispassionate and have not involved disparaging any
tools out there as "inferior".

As for "coming in here", I guess you're telling me that I'm an outsider.
Sure. And as for "pushback", I would make a distinction between pushback
that is substantive in nature and focused on the problem at hand, and
simple derision. They don't belong in the same category.

I for example think that http://try.discourse.org/ looks cluttered
> and distracting.
>

Finally! An actual discussion of Discourse. And in this case, I agree with
you.

I've gotten more accustomed to the layout over time, but I do remember
being overwhelmed when I first discovered Discourse. I'd bet there are
options to change the layout and reduce visual noise, but I don't know.

Nick
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-ideas/attachments/20160201/706b88b3/attachment-0001.html>