[Python-Dev] Type hints -- a mediocre programmer's reaction

[R. David Murray]

+1 to this from me too. I'm afraid that means I'm -1 on the PEP.

I didn't write this in my earlier email because I wasn't sure about it,
but my gut reaction after reading Harry's email was "if type annotations
are used in the stdlib, I'll probably stop contributing".  That doesn't
mean that's *true*, but that's the first time I've ever had that
thought, so it is probably worth sharing.

Basically, it makes Python less fun to program in.  That may be be an
emotional reaction and irrational, but I think it matters.  And yes, I
write production Python code for a living, though granted not at Google
or Facebook or Dropbox scale.

On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 19:00:53 -0500, Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Although I like the concept of type annotations and the PEP, I have to
> agree with this. If I saw these type annotations when learning Python (I'm
> self-taught), there's a 99% chance I would've freaked.
> 
> It's the same issue as with teaching C++: it's wrong to say, "Hey, I taught
> you the basics, but there's other stuff that's going to confuse you to a
> ridiculous extent when you read it." People can't ignore it. It'll become a
> normal part of Python programs.
> 
> At least now you can say, "I'm using the mypy type checker."
> 
> Don't get me wrong; I like mypy. I helped with their documentation and am
> watching the GitHub repo. But this is dead-on.
> 
> 
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 6:41 PM, Jack Diederich <jackdied at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Twelve years ago a wise man said to me "I suggest that you also propose a
> > new name for the resulting language"
> >
> > I talked with many of you at PyCon about the costs of PEP 484. There are
> > plenty of people who have done a fine job promoting the benefits.
> >
> > * It is not optional. Please stop saying that. The people promoting it
> > would prefer that everyone use it. If it is approved it will be optional in
> > the way that PEP8 is optional. If I'm reading your annotated code it is
> > certainly /not/ optional that I understand the annotations.
> >
> > * Uploading stubs for other people's code is a terrible idea. Who do I
> > contact when I update the interface to my library? The random Joe who
> > "helped" by uploading annotations three months ago and then quit the
> > internet? I don't even want to think about people maliciously adding stubs
> > to PyPI.
> >
> > * The cognitive load is very high. The average function signature will
> > double in length. This is not a small cost and telling me it is "optional"
> > to pretend that every other word on the line doesn't exist is a farce.
> >
> > * Every company's style guide is about to get much longer. That in itself
> > is an indicator that this is a MAJOR language change and not just some
> > "optional" add-on.
> >
> > * People will screw it up. The same people who can't be trusted to program
> > without type annotations are also going to be *writing* those type
> > annotations.
> >
> > * Teaching python is about to get much less attractive. It will not be
> > optional for teachers to say "just pretend all this stuff over here doesn't
> > exist"
> >
> > * "No new syntax" is a lie. Or rather a red herring. There are lots of new
> > things it will be required to know and just because the compiler doesn't
> > have to change doesn't mean the language isn't undergoing a major change.
> >
> > If this wasn't in a PEP and it wasn't going to ship in the stdlib very few
> > people would use it. If you told everyone they had to install a different
> > python implementation they wouldn't. This is much worse than that - it is
> > Python4 hidden away inside a PEP.
> >
> > There are many fine languages that have sophisticated type systems. And
> > many bondage & discipline languages that make you type things three times
> > to make really really sure you meant to type that. If you find those other
> > languages appealing I invite you to go use them instead.
> >
> > -Jack
> >
> > https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2003-February/033291.html
> >
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> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> Ryan
> [ERROR]: Your autotools build scripts are 200 lines longer than your
> program. Something’s wrong.
> http://kirbyfan64.github.io/
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