[Python-Dev] IDLE in the stdlib

[Kurt B. Kaiser]

On Thu, Mar 21, 2013, at 05:37 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> Le Wed, 20 Mar 2013 18:48:15 -0400, "Kurt B. Kaiser" <kbk at shore.net>
> a écrit :
> >
> > IDLE has a single keystroke round trip - it's an IDE, not just an
> > editor like Sublime Text or Notepad.  In the 21st century, people
> > expect some sort of IDE.  Or, they should!
>
> I don't think I've used an IDE in years (not seriously anyway).

If you haven't used IDLE lately, you might want to try it.

> I also don't think beginners "expect some sort of IDE", since they
> don't know what it is. They probably don't even expect a text editor
> at first.

Well, they will feel the need in less than a day, IMHO.  These days,
beginning users are accustomed to a GUI that "does something", not a
command line, it seems.

Right, they don't know what they need, at first.  We should provide an
interface that, in our experience, meets a beginner's needs.

>
> > I'd also like to make a plea to keep IDLE's interface clean and
> > basic. There are lots of complex IDEs available for those who want
> > them.  It's natural for developers to add features, that's what they
> > do :-), but you don't hand a novice a Ferrari (or emacs) and expect
> > good results.
>
> What is the point of an IDE without features?

None.

But IDLE has plenty of features - and minimum clutter.  It also works
very well on small screens.


> Also, this is touching another issue: IDLE needs active maintainers,
> who will obviously be experienced Python developers. But if they are
> experienced Python developers, they will certainly want the additional
> features, otherwise's they'll stop using and maintaining IDLE.
>
> In other words, if IDLE were actually usable *and* pleasant for
> experienced developers, I'm sure more developers would be motivated to
> improve and maintain it.

That's not the target audience for IDLE.  There are many great IDEs for
"experienced" developers.

It's not my objective to turn IDLE into PyCharm, just to keep some
developers motivated.  Good design satisfies the target audience - IMHO,
we should be working towards the best possible beginner Python interface
on Windows, Mac, and Raspberry Pi.

To get this done, we need IDLE developers who are interested in
supporting beginners.  Not so much developers who are interested in
adding complex features for their more advanced usage.

The complex IDE space is packed - it doesn't need another entry.  OTOH,
there are few simple IDEs like IDLE.  It's a good niche to be in.

And, yes, getting the IDLE developers to use IDLE is important - I do
so most of the time (emacs for the rest :).  That helps to discover
IDLE and tkinter bugs, and occasionally exposes the need for a
missing feature.

>
> > It's sometimes said that IDLE is "ugly" or "broken".  These terms
> > are subjective!
>
> Subjective statements are not baseless and idiotic.

Please don't put words in my mouth.  I only said those terms are
subjective, which they are.

> They come from the experience of people actually wanting to like a
> piece of software, you shouldn't discard them at face value.

Please don't allege actions I haven't taken!

I agree entirely with you - one has to dig deeper to extract some
constructive criticism, if it is available.

Often, you can't address one person's idea of ugly or broken without
raising those issues with another person.

-- 
KBK