[Python-Dev] IDLE in the stdlib

[Paul Moore]

On 21 March 2013 10:32, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
> On 3/21/2013 5:27 AM, Paul Moore wrote:
>
>> Can I suggest that debates about the capability of Windows command
>> line programming are off-topic here?
>
>
> I respectfully disagree, unless you say that the whole thread is off topic.
> If it is okay for people to say that IDLE, including the IDLE interactive
> interpreter shell is ugly, quirky, broken, badly maintained, and
> disfunctional, without giving hardly any facts or details to back up or
> explain the claims, and then claim it is so bad that it should be banished,
> then to me it is perfectly on topic for me to point out that the
> alternative, the CP shell, is objectively far worse in multiple respects.
> Yes, I gave some facts for the benefit of those who were willing to consider
> my claim that IDLE is better.

I agree entirely that unsubstantiated claims of "it's dreadful" are
just as unacceptable when referring to IDLE. And I'm happy to accept
that you find IDLE better - although I'd take issue with a claim that
it's objectively better for everyone. I'd rather that we focus on
dealing with genuine issues as reported by users (e.g., the comments
from people working with IDLE in training courses).

One difference, though, is that the quality of IDLE is within our
control, so comments about how it can be improved are valid - whereas
comments about the Windows console are simply statements of a reality
we have no means of addressing.

>> it is what Windows users who use the command line are used to.
>
> I bet that 'Windows users who use the command line' are less than 10% of
> Windows users.

I have no figures one way or the other on that. You may well be right.
Are we aiming at "all Windows users" here? All I can say is that my
experience (in a corporate Windows-based environment) is that people
who have any interest in learning or using Python are nearly always
*also* command line users, and comfortable with it. They are often
looking at Python as a step up from Windows batch files - and that is
such a huge improvement that trivia like the way you select text in
the console are completely irrelevant by comparison. My experience may
well be atypical, I can't say.

> I am willing to accept that you find it adequate. Why can't you accept that
> I find it wretched, especially when I explained some of why rather than just
> throwing it out as an opinion, and consider IDLE to be wonderfully better?

I'm happy to accept that. What I don't know (no criticism here, but
it's something I mentioned at the start of my post) is whether you use
Windows as your main platform, and so what you're implying in terms of
how to generalise the fact that you prefer IDLE (I assume you want me
to generalise, and not just take your comments as a statement of your
personal preference). Much of the comments about the Windows
experience *seem to me* to come from Unix users who only occasionally
use Windows and find the experience unpleasant. A bit more clarity as
to where the people advocating particular actions are coming from
would help (because I, and possibly others, may be wrong in that
impression).

Anyway, I was the one who claimed things were getting off-topic, so
I'll stop at this point. I hope I haven't offended anyone - I didn't
mean to.

Paul