From taleinat at gmail.com  Fri Aug  2 16:31:25 2019
From: taleinat at gmail.com (Tal Einat)
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 23:31:25 +0300
Subject: [Python-buildbots] Need for another macOS builder for the buildbot
 fleet?
Message-ID: <CALWZvp4=rnJn2McXaODHGC=7J_JcjccDcTWCQ=O-2QWG014vnw@mail.gmail.com>

Context: I've been awarded a grant by the PSF to fix or replace my old
MacBook Pro which recently broke, which I use mostly for developing Python.
I'm considering whether to buy a Mac Mini (old, used) instead of fixing the
MacBook, which would also have the advantage of being able to be on 24/7
and run a buildbot. (Though theoretically I could set up the MacBook to do
the same, it is not made for such use and tends to heat up when used for
hours with the lid closed.)

So, would there be interest in another Mac in our fleet? Is it important
enough to be worth the (reasonable) effort? I would be willing to keep it
on an old version of macOS, or always the one-before-latest, if that would
help.

- Tal Einat

From matt at vazor.com  Fri Aug  2 16:40:06 2019
From: matt at vazor.com (Matt Billenstein)
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 20:40:06 +0000
Subject: [Python-buildbots] Need for another macOS builder for the
 buildbot fleet?
In-Reply-To: <CALWZvp4=rnJn2McXaODHGC=7J_JcjccDcTWCQ=O-2QWG014vnw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALWZvp4=rnJn2McXaODHGC=7J_JcjccDcTWCQ=O-2QWG014vnw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0101016c540fa1ee-7403a20a-8d59-42a4-934b-4be559f3656f-000000@us-west-2.amazonses.com>

More builders is good imo.  I run the other osx builder on a previous gen
macbook pro, I'll send you the script I use to set it up if that's helpful.

m

On Fri, Aug 02, 2019 at 11:31:25PM +0300, Tal Einat wrote:
> Context: I've been awarded a grant by the PSF to fix or replace my old
> MacBook Pro which recently broke, which I use mostly for developing Python.
> I'm considering whether to buy a Mac Mini (old, used) instead of fixing the
> MacBook, which would also have the advantage of being able to be on 24/7
> and run a buildbot. (Though theoretically I could set up the MacBook to do
> the same, it is not made for such use and tends to heat up when used for
> hours with the lid closed.)
> 
> So, would there be interest in another Mac in our fleet? Is it important
> enough to be worth the (reasonable) effort? I would be willing to keep it
> on an old version of macOS, or always the one-before-latest, if that would
> help.
> 
> - Tal Einat
> _______________________________________________
> Python-Buildbots mailing list
> Python-Buildbots at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-buildbots

-- 
Matt Billenstein
matt at vazor.com
http://www.vazor.com/

From nad at python.org  Fri Aug  2 16:42:24 2019
From: nad at python.org (Ned Deily)
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 16:42:24 -0400
Subject: [Python-buildbots] Need for another macOS builder for the
 buildbot fleet?
In-Reply-To: <CALWZvp4=rnJn2McXaODHGC=7J_JcjccDcTWCQ=O-2QWG014vnw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALWZvp4=rnJn2McXaODHGC=7J_JcjccDcTWCQ=O-2QWG014vnw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <514A954D-7B49-473C-82FD-A14D2FB9976B@python.org>

On Aug 2, 2019, at 16:31, Tal Einat <taleinat at gmail.com> wrote:
> So, would there be interest in another Mac in our fleet? Is it important
> enough to be worth the (reasonable) effort? I would be willing to keep it
> on an old version of macOS, or always the one-before-latest, if that would
> help.

Another macOS buildbot would be very welcome, IMHO.  At the moment, we only have a High Sierra (macOS 10.13) one which is not the latest release of macOS (10.14 and soon to be 10.15).  It would be great to have one running a current system and doing testing of installed framework builds.  A Mini would be a good choice; the most important characteristic is to get as much memory as practical; and an SSD or Fustion drive would be good.

I have ideas of providing a set of VM-based macOS buildbots for various releases but that's not going to happen right away.

Thanks for the offer!

--
  Ned Deily
  nad at python.org -- []


From matt at vazor.com  Fri Aug  2 16:50:10 2019
From: matt at vazor.com (Matt Billenstein)
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 20:50:10 +0000
Subject: [Python-buildbots] Need for another macOS builder for the
 buildbot fleet?
In-Reply-To: <514A954D-7B49-473C-82FD-A14D2FB9976B@python.org>
References: <CALWZvp4=rnJn2McXaODHGC=7J_JcjccDcTWCQ=O-2QWG014vnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <514A954D-7B49-473C-82FD-A14D2FB9976B@python.org>
Message-ID: <0101016c5418d835-37746b30-37a6-44d8-8f30-6ac3f2d29148-000000@us-west-2.amazonses.com>

On Fri, Aug 02, 2019 at 04:42:24PM -0400, Ned Deily wrote:
> I have ideas of providing a set of VM-based macOS buildbots for various
> releases but that's not going to happen right away.

MacOS is hard to run in virtualbox - do you have a better way of emulating it?
It would be nice if these were server-class VMs in the cloud imo.  The services
that sell macOS vms have been spotty and fairly oversubscribed in my experience.

m

-- 
Matt Billenstein
matt at vazor.com
http://www.vazor.com/

From nad at python.org  Fri Aug  2 17:02:26 2019
From: nad at python.org (Ned Deily)
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 17:02:26 -0400
Subject: [Python-buildbots] Need for another macOS builder for the
 buildbot fleet?
In-Reply-To: <0101016c5418d835-37746b30-37a6-44d8-8f30-6ac3f2d29148-000000@us-west-2.amazonses.com>
References: <CALWZvp4=rnJn2McXaODHGC=7J_JcjccDcTWCQ=O-2QWG014vnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <514A954D-7B49-473C-82FD-A14D2FB9976B@python.org>
 <0101016c5418d835-37746b30-37a6-44d8-8f30-6ac3f2d29148-000000@us-west-2.amazonses.com>
Message-ID: <E38B58E9-817C-47DD-A2D4-49D2D106151D@python.org>

On Aug 2, 2019, at 16:50, Matt Billenstein <matt at vazor.com> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Aug 02, 2019 at 04:42:24PM -0400, Ned Deily wrote:
>> I have ideas of providing a set of VM-based macOS buildbots for various
>> releases but that's not going to happen right away.
> 
> MacOS is hard to run in virtualbox - do you have a better way of emulating it?
> It would be nice if these were server-class VMs in the cloud imo.  The services
> that sell macOS vms have been spotty and fairly oversubscribed in my experience.

i've had great success over the years running macOS VMs in VMWare Fusion.  I totally depend on them on building python.org macOS installers.  I have VMs for the most recent updates of all macOS releases back to 10.5 and can run them under Fusion on any reasonably current macOS system.

--
  Ned Deily
  nad at python.org -- []


From taleinat at gmail.com  Fri Aug  2 17:22:02 2019
From: taleinat at gmail.com (Tal Einat)
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 00:22:02 +0300
Subject: [Python-buildbots] Need for another macOS builder for the
 buildbot fleet?
In-Reply-To: <E38B58E9-817C-47DD-A2D4-49D2D106151D@python.org>
References: <CALWZvp4=rnJn2McXaODHGC=7J_JcjccDcTWCQ=O-2QWG014vnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <514A954D-7B49-473C-82FD-A14D2FB9976B@python.org>
 <0101016c5418d835-37746b30-37a6-44d8-8f30-6ac3f2d29148-000000@us-west-2.amazonses.com>
 <E38B58E9-817C-47DD-A2D4-49D2D106151D@python.org>
Message-ID: <CALWZvp57NzqBQemLGj3r0n4Z5gMB3r1QL+Dra51mZ1B_ORYNyw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 3, 2019 at 12:02 AM Ned Deily <nad at python.org> wrote:

> I 've had great success over the years running macOS VMs in VMWare
Fusion. I totally depend on them on building python.org macOS installers.
I have VMs for the most recent updates of all macOS releases back to 10.5
and can run them under Fusion on any reasonably current macOS system.

That's very interesting! It only runs on host macOS systems though, right?
Why do you need it for building python.org releases?

From taleinat at gmail.com  Fri Aug  2 17:29:18 2019
From: taleinat at gmail.com (Tal Einat)
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 00:29:18 +0300
Subject: [Python-buildbots] Need for another macOS builder for the
 buildbot fleet?
In-Reply-To: <514A954D-7B49-473C-82FD-A14D2FB9976B@python.org>
References: <CALWZvp4=rnJn2McXaODHGC=7J_JcjccDcTWCQ=O-2QWG014vnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <514A954D-7B49-473C-82FD-A14D2FB9976B@python.org>
Message-ID: <CALWZvp740AJjG_eYaTw6O4PbiEbf23fwCW3nv8qVUL+HTiZYQA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 11:42 PM Ned Deily <nad at python.org> wrote:
>
> On Aug 2, 2019, at 16:31, Tal Einat <taleinat at gmail.com> wrote:
> > So, would there be interest in another Mac in our fleet? Is it important
> > enough to be worth the (reasonable) effort? I would be willing to keep it
> > on an old version of macOS, or always the one-before-latest, if that would
> > help.
>
> Another macOS buildbot would be very welcome, IMHO.  At the moment, we only have a High Sierra (macOS 10.13) one which is not the latest release of macOS (10.14 and soon to be 10.15).  It would be great to have one running a current system and doing testing of installed framework builds.  A Mini would be a good choice; the most important characteristic is to get as much memory as practical; and an SSD or Fustion drive would be good.

Ideally it would be doing all of the build on tmpfs or similar, both
for speed and to avoid degrading the SSD quickly. I'd definitely need
a nice chunk of RAM for that.

Next step: Given that the PSF grant is for $500 and I don't want to
exceed that more than just a bit, what model(s) of Mac Mini should I
be looking for? I've started taking a look, but suggestions would be
very welcome! (Consider that I live in Israel: additional shipping
costs; problematic return of defective products; available local
certified Apple retailer)

- Tal Einat

From nad at python.org  Fri Aug  2 17:39:08 2019
From: nad at python.org (Ned Deily)
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 17:39:08 -0400
Subject: [Python-buildbots] Need for another macOS builder for the
 buildbot fleet?
In-Reply-To: <CALWZvp57NzqBQemLGj3r0n4Z5gMB3r1QL+Dra51mZ1B_ORYNyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALWZvp4=rnJn2McXaODHGC=7J_JcjccDcTWCQ=O-2QWG014vnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <514A954D-7B49-473C-82FD-A14D2FB9976B@python.org>
 <0101016c5418d835-37746b30-37a6-44d8-8f30-6ac3f2d29148-000000@us-west-2.amazonses.com>
 <E38B58E9-817C-47DD-A2D4-49D2D106151D@python.org>
 <CALWZvp57NzqBQemLGj3r0n4Z5gMB3r1QL+Dra51mZ1B_ORYNyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00B0CA5F-6A67-4578-AE91-4D928433983B@python.org>

On Aug 2, 2019, at 17:22, Tal Einat <taleinat at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 3, 2019 at 12:02 AM Ned Deily <nad at python.org> wrote:
> 
> > I 've had great success over the years running macOS VMs in VMWare Fusion. I totally depend on them on building python.org macOS installers.  I have VMs for the most recent updates of all macOS releases back to 10.5 and can run them under Fusion on any reasonably current macOS system. 
> 
> That's very interesting! It only runs on host macOS systems though, right?

Fusion only runs on macOS hosts, yes, though there are other VMWare host products for various other systems. I believe, though have not verified myself, that VMWare hosts enforce that macOS guests only run on macOS hosts to adhere to Apple license restrictions but there may be unsupported community hacks to get around that. On the other hand, Fusion on macOS hosts runs pretty much all other types of guest VMs: I run Windows and various Linux and FreeBSD guest VMs under Fusion on macOS.

> Why do you need it for building python.org releases?

Because the macOS installers are built on the minimum macOS version they support, i.e. the 10.9+ variants are built on a 10.9 system etc. This eliminates problems with needing to support and test weak linking and other backwards compatibility issues.

  --
    Ned Deily
    nad at python.org -- []


From matt at vazor.com  Fri Aug  2 17:42:08 2019
From: matt at vazor.com (Matt Billenstein)
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 21:42:08 +0000
Subject: [Python-buildbots] Need for another macOS builder for the
 buildbot fleet?
In-Reply-To: <CALWZvp740AJjG_eYaTw6O4PbiEbf23fwCW3nv8qVUL+HTiZYQA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALWZvp4=rnJn2McXaODHGC=7J_JcjccDcTWCQ=O-2QWG014vnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <514A954D-7B49-473C-82FD-A14D2FB9976B@python.org>
 <CALWZvp740AJjG_eYaTw6O4PbiEbf23fwCW3nv8qVUL+HTiZYQA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0101016c54486b37-a8672bd1-e3b2-4b30-b461-8e32d26ec70a-000000@us-west-2.amazonses.com>

On Sat, Aug 03, 2019 at 12:29:18AM +0300, Tal Einat wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 11:42 PM Ned Deily <nad at python.org> wrote:
> Ideally it would be doing all of the build on tmpfs or similar, both
> for speed and to avoid degrading the SSD quickly. I'd definitely need
> a nice chunk of RAM for that.
> 
> Next step: Given that the PSF grant is for $500 and I don't want to
> exceed that more than just a bit, what model(s) of Mac Mini should I
> be looking for? I've started taking a look, but suggestions would be
> very welcome! (Consider that I live in Israel: additional shipping
> costs; problematic return of defective products; available local
> certified Apple retailer)

Don't over-think it - modern SSDs have wear leveling computed at multiple
gigabytes per day over their lifetime and the lowest spec mac mini you can buy
made in the last 2-3 years is more than enough for a buildbot.

m

-- 
Matt Billenstein
matt at vazor.com
http://www.vazor.com/

From nad at python.org  Sat Aug  3 16:23:28 2019
From: nad at python.org (Ned Deily)
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 16:23:28 -0400
Subject: [Python-buildbots] Need for another macOS builder for the
 buildbot fleet?
In-Reply-To: <0101016c54486b37-a8672bd1-e3b2-4b30-b461-8e32d26ec70a-000000@us-west-2.amazonses.com>
References: <CALWZvp4=rnJn2McXaODHGC=7J_JcjccDcTWCQ=O-2QWG014vnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <514A954D-7B49-473C-82FD-A14D2FB9976B@python.org>
 <CALWZvp740AJjG_eYaTw6O4PbiEbf23fwCW3nv8qVUL+HTiZYQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0101016c54486b37-a8672bd1-e3b2-4b30-b461-8e32d26ec70a-000000@us-west-2.amazonses.com>
Message-ID: <DB2CEB40-43DD-4596-95F4-98CB7CD04D59@python.org>

On Aug 2, 2019, at 17:42, Matt Billenstein <matt at vazor.com> wrote:
> Don't over-think it - modern SSDs have wear leveling computed at multiple
> gigabytes per day over their lifetime and the lowest spec mac mini you can buy
> made in the last 2-3 years is more than enough for a buildbot.

+1

My Macs have been all SSD main storage for several years now and I've had no need to do any tweaking of configurations.  And, yeah, any recent Mac Mini configuration is good enough for a buildbot.  That said, in general, the more memory, the better, as it will be used as necessary for caching etc.  Unfortunately, Apple's memory prices are traditionally high; it looks like memory on recent Minis is not labeled as a user-upgradable item (as is still the case with iMacs) although the current (2018) Minis are field-upgradable (at an Apple Store or dealer) and, if you feel handy and not worried about voiding the warranty, *can* be upgraded at home by following third-party memory vendor videos.

But, it seems to me that the primary reason for you to get the Mac is to help you in your role as a core developer.  Your contributions there are what will make the biggest difference to Python.  So, while having another buildbot would be nice, I think you should focus on getting something that will help you with core development tasks and fits your budget.  If we can get another buildbot out of it, fine, but there are many more options available for that.

Good luck!

--
  Ned Deily
  nad at python.org -- []


From aixtools at felt.demon.nl  Mon Aug 26 02:01:43 2019
From: aixtools at felt.demon.nl (Michael)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 08:01:43 +0200
Subject: [Python-buildbots] Power6 bot intermediate offline today
Message-ID: <062da35e-587b-f6ca-e13a-8b2cdb87d37d@felt.demon.nl>

FYI: Changing my ISP setups, so there will be downtime as both my backup
and primary IP addresses are changing.


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