[Python-3000] Pre-PEP: Simple input built-in in Python 3000

[Andre Roberge]

Any possibility that (some of) the following can be done before Pycon?
Respectfully yours,
André Roberge

On 12/23/06, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
[http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-3000/2006-December/005257.html]
> BTW, can someone clean up and check in the proto-PEP and start working
> on an implementation or patch? Should be really simple. I'd like to
> see a patch for the refactoring tool (sandbox/2to3) as well.

This was as a follow up to:
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-3000/2006-December/005249.html

On 12/22/06, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
> I like the exact proposal made here better than any of the
> alternatives mentioned so far.
>
> - Against naming it readline(): the "real" readline doesn't strip the
> \n and returns an empty string for EOF instead of raising EOFError; I
> believe the latter is more helpful for true beginners' code.
>
> - Against naming it ask() and renaming print() to say(): I find those
> rather silly names that belong in toy or AI languages. Changing print
> from statement to function maintains Pythonicity; renaming it say()
> does not.
>
> - I don't expect there will be much potential confusion with the 2.x
> input(); that function is used extremely rarely. It will be trivial to
> add rules to the refactoring tool (sandbox/2to3/) that replace input()
> with eval(input()) and replace raw_input() with input().
>
> --Guido
>
> On 12/22/06, Andre Roberge <andre.roberge at gmail.com> wrote:
> > A few months ago, there was an active discussion on edu-sig regarding
> > the proposed fate of raw_input().  The text below is an attempt at
> > summarizing the discussion in the form of a tentative PEP.
> > It is respectfully submitted for your consideration.
> >
> > If it is to be considered, in some form, as an official PEP, I have
> > absolutely no objection for a regular python-dev contributor to take over
> > the
> > ownership/authorship.
> >
> > André Roberge
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > PEP: XXX
> > Title: Simple input built-in in Python 3000
> > Version: $Revision: 0.2 $
> > Last-Modified: $Date: 2006/12/22 10:00:00 $
> > Author: André Roberge <andre.roberge at gmail.com >
> > Status: Draft
> > Type: Standards Track
> > Content-Type: text/x-rst
> > Created: 13-Sep-2006
> > Python-Version: 3.0
> > Post-History:
> >
> > Abstract
> > ========
> >
> > Input and output are core features of computer programs.  Currently,
> > Python provides a simple means of output through the print keyword
> > and two simple means of interactive input through the input()
> > and raw_input() built-in functions.
> >
> > Python 3.0 will introduces various incompatible changes with previous
> > Python versions[1].  Among the proposed changes, print will become a
> > built-in
> > function, print(), while input() and raw_input() would be removed completely
> > from the built-in namespace, requiring importing some module to provide
> > even the most basic input capability.
> >
> > This PEP proposes that Python 3.0 retains some simple interactive user
> > input capability, equivalent to raw_input(), within the built-in namespace.
> >
> > Motivation
> >  ==========
> >
> > With its easy readability and its support for many programming styles
> > (e.g. procedural, object-oriented, etc.) among others, Python is perhaps
> > the best computer language to use in introductory programming classes.
> > Simple programs often need to provide information to the user (output)
> > and to obtain information from the user (interactive input).
> > Any computer language intended to be used in an educational setting should
> >  provide straightforward methods for both output and interactive input.
> >
> > The current proposals for Python 3.0 [1] include a simple output pathway
> > via a built-in function named print(), but a more complicated method for
> > input [e.g. via sys.stdin.readline()], one that requires importing an
> > external
> > module.  Current versions of Python (pre-3.0) include raw_input() as a
> > built-in function.  With the availability of such a function, programs that
> > require simple input/output can be written from day one, without requiring
> > discussions of importing modules, streams, etc.
> >
> > Rationale
> > =========
> >
> > Current built-in functions, like input() and raw_input(), are found to be
> > extremely useful in traditional teaching settings. (For more details,
> > see [2] and the discussion that followed.)
> > While the BDFL has clearly stated [3] that input() was not to be kept in
> > Python 3000, he has also stated that he was not against revising the
> > decision of killing raw_input().
> >
> > raw_input() provides a simple mean to ask a question and obtain a response
> > from a user.  The proposed plans for Python 3.0 would require the
> > replacement
> > of the single statement
> >
> > name = raw_input("What is your name?")
> >
> > by the more complicated
> >
> > import sys
> > print("What is your name?")
> > same = sys.stdin.readline()
> >
> > However, from the point of view of many Python beginners and educators, the
> > use of sys.stdin.readline() presents the following problems:
> >
> > 1. Compared to the name "raw_input", the name "sys.stdin.readline()"
> > is clunky and inelegant.
> >
> > 2. The names "sys" and "stdin" have no meaning for most beginners,
> > who are mainly interested in *what* the function does, and not *where*
> > in the package structure it is located.  The lack of meaning also makes
> > it difficult to remember:
> > is it "sys.stdin.readline()", or " stdin.sys.readline()"?
> > To a programming novice, there is not any obvious reason to prefer
> > one over the other. In contrast, functions simple and direct names like
> > print, input, and raw_input, and open are easier to remember.
> >
> > 3. The use of "." notation is unmotivated and confusing to many beginners.
> > For example, it may lead some beginners to think "."  is a standard
> > character that could be used in any identifier.
> >
> > 4. There is an asymmetry with the print function: why is print not called
> > sys.stdout.print()?
> >
> >
> > Specification
> > =============
> >
> > The built-in input function should be totally equivalent to the existing
> > raw_input() function.
> >
> > Open issues
> > ===========
> >
> > With input() effectively removed from the language, the name raw_input()
> > makes much less sense and alternatives should be considered.  The
> > various possibilities mentioned in various forums include:
> >
> > ask()
> > ask_user()
> > get_string()
> > input()  # rejected by BDFL
> > prompt()
> > read()
> > user_input()
> > get_response()
> >
> > While it has bee rejected by the BDFL, it has been suggested that the most
> > direct solution would be to rename "raw_input" to "input" in Python 3000.
> > The main objection is that Python 2.x already has a function named "input",
> > and, even though it is not going to be included in Python 3000,
> > having a built-in function with the same name but different semantics may
> > confuse programmers migrating from 2.x to 3000.  Certainly, this is no
> > problem
> > for beginners, and the scope of the problem is unclear for more experienced
> > programmers, since raw_input(), while popular with many, is not in
> > universal use.  In this instance, the good it does for beginners could be
> > seen to outweigh the harm it does to experienced programmers -
> > although it could cause confusion for people reading older books or
> > tutorials.
> >
> >
> > References
> > ==========
> >
> > .. [1] PEP 3100, Miscellaneous Python 3.0 Plans, Kuchling, Cannon
> > (http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3100/)
> > .. [2] The fate of raw_input() in Python 3000
> > (http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2006-September/006967.html)
> > .. [3] Educational aspects of Python 3000
> > (
> > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-3000/2006-September/003589.html)
> >
> >
> > Copyright
> > =========
> >
> > This document has been placed in the public domain.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
>
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
>