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["Martin v. Löwis"]

>>> The main idea is to allow people publish patch queues for review if
>>> they do not have access to repository.
>> That can be *easily* done with subversion also. PLEASE wait with such
>> proposals until the actual need occurs: WHO wants to publish patches,
>> and what patches specifically?
> 
> I have no idea how public patch queue management can *easily* be done
> with Subversion. I am sure everybody out there would appreciate a
> short proof-of-concept on how do you manage patches for projects for
> which you do not have commit privileges.

People don't need patch queues to contribute - mere patches are
sufficient. Perform a regular checkout, edit the changes you want to
make, use "svn diff" to produce a patch, and mail it to the mailing list
 (or whatever patch submission system the project uses). This has been
working forever.

> About WHO. I am, and those people who agree that maintenance of
> various products that constitute Python services, their upgrade and
> extension would be much better if we maintain those customizations as
> series of patches to original upstream version. This is a way how
> Debian, FreeBSD and other projects make packages compatible
> independently of the upstream.

Just post your patches here.

> WHAT patches. First of all note that it is patch queue - one patch
> depends on the other and they may even form directed acyclic graph
> (DAG). Currently I want to see modifications to our Wiki in clear form
> to be able to upgrade it and check that nothing is broken. I hope I am
> not alone. There are issues with spam constantly creeping in in
> hideous way, pages that can not be deleted, etc. Reread MoinMoin log
> for all these years to compare which commits are missing is physically
> impossible.

I don't understand. What logs are you talking about that you have to
read? The wiki is edited by end users over the Web, I see no use for
Mercurial (or any version control system) here.

> Patch queue can be applied to a newer version of MoinMoin and you can
> see which patches are integrated upsteam, which fail and need to be
> refreshed, so the process of upgrade will be much easier.

Or are you talking about the source code of MoinMoin? We are using the
Debian packages, and upgrading them (whenever a new Debian release is
made) works fine.

> "Please wait", "please drop", "please stop", ... What is next? Martin,
> I really value your efforts in maintaining python.org and contributing
> to various pieces of software on backend. You are doing a lot of work,
> but this doesn't mean you do not need help.

The problem is that you are not helping *at all*. Instead of producing
less work for me (and everybody else), you produce *more work*.

Please pick an aspect where you *can* contribute, rather than CONSTANTLY
picking things where you cannot contribute, and demanding that these
things change.

Also, start accepting that things are done differently from what you
would expect. Learn how things are done, and truly consider adjusting to
that. Propose changes to processes only if you can carry out those
changes mostly on your own, without involving five people to do the
change for you.

> For me managing all that
> would require an enormous amount of time and knowledge. I can't see
> how to follow development process with time constraints I have. I see
> the solution in patch queues. You have other way, and I ask if you
> don't mind sharing your way of doing things?

Depends on the kind of thing in question. One principle is to always use
operating system packages for software installation (where available),
rather than installing software for yourself. Some problems then simply
go away.

> What can I ACTUALLY contribute? I should ask you - how can I
> contribute, and what should I do to actually contribute? To make it a
> constructive discussion let's record your answers in Wiki FAQ for
> potential contributors.

It now depends on what system you want to contribute to, and I can only
speak for the things I maintain. For PyPI and roundup, pick things from
the bug tracker and post patches that solve these problems.

I thought you were interested in changing the content of some of the web
pages. So start posting patches for these changes.

> That I really dislike is the fact that there is no
> movement, and I am trying to change this by attracting more people,
> discussing problems to create an environment to make contributions
> easier and more fun. But if you'll directly ask me to shut up and go
> away I'd probably couldn't resist. =)

I'm asking you to stop making these demanding posts. Don't tell us what
is wrong (in your opinion), but actually contribute to these things.
Choose things that you can do yourself, and be creative in finding ways
of doing them yourself even without the processes being the way you
think they should be.

Regards,
Martin