From jim at zope.com Thu Mar 17 18:12:14 2005 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Thu Mar 17 18:12:20 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Open Space at PyCon Message-ID: <4239BA6E.5060504@zope.com> PyCon 2005 is just around the corner. PyCon is a great place to meet and collaborate with your colleagues. A great way to collaborate at PyCon is through "Open space". Open space is a part of PyCon designed to provide opportunities for collaboration. There are two kinds of open space at Pycon, quiet and noisy. There will be a quiet room provided throughout the conference for people to access the network and to quietly hack with others (e.g. pair program). There will also be a noisy room for people to have discussions or give informal presentations. The noisy room will host up to two presentations or discussions at a time. We'll provide the opportunity to sign up for 30-minute time slots. We'll allow sign up for half of the time slots before the conference. There will be a posted schedule with spaces to sign up for the remainder of the time slots during the conference. To sign up ahead of time, send me (jim@zope.com) email with: - Your desired time slot, - A title for your session, and optionally - A very short description. I will get back to you with a confirmation. I will also post sign up sheets at the conference. These will be on easels by the registration desk. Sheets to sign up for sessions on Wednesday will be posted on Monday through Wednesday. Sheets to sign up for sessions on Thursday will be posted on Wednesday and Thursday. Sheets to sign up for sessions on Friday will be posted on Thursday and Friday. If you have a question about open space, feel free to drop me a line at jim@zope.com. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From jim at zope.com Thu Mar 17 18:21:52 2005 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Thu Mar 17 18:21:55 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Open Space at PyCon In-Reply-To: <4239BA6E.5060504@zope.com> References: <4239BA6E.5060504@zope.com> Message-ID: <4239BCB0.8030409@zope.com> Jim Fulton wrote: > > We'll provide the > opportunity to sign up for 30-minute time slots. I should have mentioned what the slots are. :) Open space sessions are shown on the schedule at: http://www.python.org/pycon/2005/schedule.html We'll devide each of the sessions into 30-minute parts. We can have up to two meetings in each slow. I also forgot to mention that we'll have a projctor available for one of the meetings. If you sign up for a slot, please let me know if you want a projector. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From jim at zope.com Thu Mar 17 18:58:08 2005 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Thu Mar 17 18:58:16 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Open Space at PyCon In-Reply-To: <4239BA6E.5060504@zope.com> References: <4239BA6E.5060504@zope.com> Message-ID: <4239C530.7010508@zope.com> Jim Fulton wrote: ... > To sign up ahead of time, send me (jim@zope.com) email with: > > - Your desired time slot, Giving me a choice of slots will save time if there are conflicts. (I've already had one. :) Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From mclay at python.net Thu Mar 17 23:48:58 2005 From: mclay at python.net (Michael McLay) Date: Thu Mar 17 23:59:24 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Don't forget your wireless cards Message-ID: <200503171749.00611.mclay@python.net> The sprints and the conference will have wireless Internet access available so don't forget to bring your wireless card. If you have extra wireless cards available, please bring them along to share. Internet access through the Ethernet switches from last year will also be available. From goodger at python.org Fri Mar 18 06:24:08 2005 From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger) Date: Fri Mar 18 06:24:17 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Volunteers needed! Message-ID: <423A65F8.50806@python.org> PyCon urgently needs volunteers in two vital areas: * Staff for the registration desk will register attendees and provide information. Don't worry if you don't know all the answers; those who do will always be nearby. A sign-up page with more information has been set up at http://www.python.org/moin/PyConDC2005/RegistrationDesk * Session chairs introduce speakers and talks, keep track of time, and help keep everything flowing smoothly. The sign-up and information page is http://www.python.org/moin/PyConDC2005/SessionChairs As a token of appreciation, volunteers will receive the highly coveted special limited edtion black "Staff" PyCon T-shirts. See and be seen! Meet and be met! Sign up now! -- David Goodger -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 253 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pycon2005-attendees/attachments/20050318/b13a710f/signature.pgp From jim at zope.com Fri Mar 18 13:39:54 2005 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Fri Mar 18 13:40:00 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] PyCon 2005 Sprints Message-ID: <423ACC1A.1090402@zope.com> PyCon 2005 is just around the corner. PyCon is a great place to meet and collaborate with your colleagues. A great way to collaborate at PyCon is through sprints. A sprint is a multi-day session of intense development organized around extreme programming (XP) ideas such as pair programming. There will be four days, March 19-22, before the regular conference to sprint on a variety of projects. To see what sprints are planned, see: http://www.python.org/moin/PyConDC2005/Sprints There is also useful logistical information there! If you would like to lead a sprint, feel free to add the sprint to that page. If you want to participate in a sprint, visit a sprint-topic page and add your name to the list of attendees so that we know how many people are coming. If you have a question about the sprints, feel free to drop me a line at jim@zope.com. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From jim at zope.com Fri Mar 18 13:49:55 2005 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Fri Mar 18 13:50:01 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Car pool from Prince William County, Virginia (Or southwestern Fairfax County)? Message-ID: <423ACE73.5010609@zope.com> Is anyone coming from Prince William County or southwestern Fairfax County (e.g. Chantilly, Clifton, or even Fairfax) who might be interested in car pooling, especially during the week? Driving to GWU is pretty convenient if you can have multiple people in your car. :) (I'll be traveling to PyCon Sat-Wed.) Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From jbauer at rubic.com Fri Mar 18 19:34:16 2005 From: jbauer at rubic.com (Jeff Bauer) Date: Fri Mar 18 20:10:18 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] shared lodging for conference Message-ID: <423B1F28.5010706@rubic.com> If anyone is looking for a roommate and has a motel room within walking distance of the conference, please contact me. Thanks. Jeff Bauer Rubicon, Inc. From jafo at tummy.com Sat Mar 19 20:34:48 2005 From: jafo at tummy.com (Sean Reifschneider) Date: Sat Mar 19 20:34:59 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] shared lodging for conference In-Reply-To: <423B1F28.5010706@rubic.com> References: <423B1F28.5010706@rubic.com> Message-ID: <20050319193448.GC13774@tummy.com> On Fri, Mar 18, 2005 at 12:34:16PM -0600, Jeff Bauer wrote: >If anyone is looking for a roommate and has a motel >room within walking distance of the conference, please >contact me. Thanks. A few comments: Staying close to GWU is EXPENSIVE. Last year we stayed at the hotel at 1 George Washington Circle, and got a really good deal, something like $125/night. This year it was more like $200 and at night the ice weasels came. The hospital is right across the street and, particularly on the weekend nights the ambuilances kept us up all night. The Metro is great, so it's more important to stay close to a Metro stop than to stay within walking distance. The Metro stop is 2 blocks from GWU. You want the Foggy Bottom Metro stop. Sean -- "If life was fair, Elvis would be alive and all the impersonators would be dead." -- Johnny Carson Sean Reifschneider, Member of Technical Staff tummy.com, ltd. - Linux Consulting since 1995. Qmail, Python, SysAdmin From mhertel at aptima.com Sat Mar 19 21:36:22 2005 From: mhertel at aptima.com (Mark Hertel) Date: Sat Mar 19 21:36:24 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] shared lodging for conference In-Reply-To: <20050319193448.GC13774@tummy.com> References: <423B1F28.5010706@rubic.com> <20050319193448.GC13774@tummy.com> Message-ID: <20050319203622.GB5503@cogitation.org> On Sat, Mar 19, 2005 at 12:34:48PM -0700, Sean Reifschneider wrote: > On Fri, Mar 18, 2005 at 12:34:16PM -0600, Jeff Bauer wrote: > >If anyone is looking for a roommate and has a motel > >room within walking distance of the conference, please > >contact me. Thanks. > > A few comments: > > Staying close to GWU is EXPENSIVE. Last year we stayed at the hotel at > 1 George Washington Circle, and got a really good deal, something like > $125/night. This year it was more like $200 and at night the ice > weasels came. The hospital is right across the street and, particularly > on the weekend nights the ambuilances kept us up all night. > > The Metro is great, so it's more important to stay close to a Metro stop > than to stay within walking distance. The Metro stop is 2 blocks from > GWU. You want the Foggy Bottom Metro stop. > > Sean I second what Sean is saying -- using the metro to get to the conference allows for getting a hotel farther away and therefore at a cheaper rate. Last year I decided to attend pretty late and could only find something affordable in Silver Springs MD - but hotel was a block from a metro stop and it never took more than 30 minutes to get to GWU. --Mark From amk at amk.ca Sat Mar 19 22:45:06 2005 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Sat Mar 19 22:45:42 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] First papers now available Message-ID: <20050319214506.GD9746@rogue.amk.ca> A subset of papers and presentations are now available at http://www.python.org/pycon/2005/papers/. Feel free to link papers from the Wiki abstracts or the schedule. --amk From sdeibel at wingware.com Sun Mar 20 00:24:25 2005 From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel) Date: Sun Mar 20 00:25:57 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] First papers now available In-Reply-To: <20050319214506.GD9746@rogue.amk.ca> References: <20050319214506.GD9746@rogue.amk.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Mar 2005, A.M. Kuchling wrote: > A subset of papers and presentations are now available at > http://www.python.org/pycon/2005/papers/. > > Feel free to link papers from the Wiki abstracts or the schedule. I've added a link to this from the top of the two program pages (wiki and non-wiki) but don't have time right now to do all the individual links from the schedule itself. - Stephan From richard at commonground.com.au Sun Mar 20 14:41:22 2005 From: richard at commonground.com.au (Richard Jones) Date: Sun Mar 20 15:10:42 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Charger for Nokia mobile phone, anyone? Message-ID: [apologies if this is a dupe] If anyone has a charger for a Nokia mobile phone that they could bring to the sprint, I'd really appreciate it. Alternatively, if there's somewhere I could buy one, that'd be ok too. Richard From flint at flint.com Sun Mar 20 16:40:20 2005 From: flint at flint.com (flint@flint.com) Date: Sun Mar 20 16:40:21 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Charger for Nokia mobile phone, anyone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Richard, Which model Nokia? Regards, Paul /*************************************************************** * To contact me try: * * Paul Flint VOX 202 537 0480 * * EMAIL flint@flint.com HOME 703 524 1657 * * WEB http://www.flint.com * ***************************************************************/ To speed delivery please send plain text not HTML mail. On Sun, 20 Mar 2005, Richard Jones wrote: > [apologies if this is a dupe] > If anyone has a charger for a Nokia mobile phone that they could bring > to the > sprint, I'd really appreciate it. Alternatively, if there's somewhere I > could > buy one, that'd be ok too. > > > Richard > > _______________________________________________ > Pycon2005-attendees mailing list > Pycon2005-attendees@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon2005-attendees > From flint at flint.com Sun Mar 20 17:02:23 2005 From: flint at flint.com (flint@flint.com) Date: Sun Mar 20 17:02:23 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Wall Warts and all... In-Reply-To: <5fa9dad0584044dd8827893359f58a84@commonground.com.au> Message-ID: Dear Richard Jones, I would appreciate confirmation of this, but my tests show that Cybko chargers have connector, polarity and voltage compatibility. Imagine how difficult it will be for me to sacrifice one of the Cybko's for the duration. Regards, Paul /*************************************************************** * To contact me try: * * Paul Flint VOX 202 537 0480 * * EMAIL flint@flint.com HOME 703 524 1657 * * WEB http://www.flint.com * ***************************************************************/ To speed delivery please send plain text not HTML mail. On Sun, 20 Mar 2005, Richard Jones wrote: > On 20/03/2005, at 10:40 AM, wrote: > > Which model Nokia? > > It's a 3210, but I don't believe it makes any difference. All my Nokias > so far have used the same 3.7V charger. > > > Richard > From richard at commonground.com.au Sun Mar 20 16:46:33 2005 From: richard at commonground.com.au (Richard Jones) Date: Sun Mar 20 17:30:03 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Charger for Nokia mobile phone, anyone? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5fa9dad0584044dd8827893359f58a84@commonground.com.au> On 20/03/2005, at 10:40 AM, wrote: > Which model Nokia? It's a 3210, but I don't believe it makes any difference. All my Nokias so far have used the same 3.7V charger. Richard From richard at commonground.com.au Sun Mar 20 17:22:24 2005 From: richard at commonground.com.au (Richard Jones) Date: Sun Mar 20 17:30:03 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Charger for Nokia mobile phone, anyone? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <885081e13047a0d67121a6b1afd9cb39@commonground.com.au> I've managed to find a couple of chargers, thanks! Richard From flint at flint.com Sun Mar 20 18:04:16 2005 From: flint at flint.com (flint@flint.com) Date: Sun Mar 20 18:04:16 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Lodging in the DC area. In-Reply-To: <20050319203622.GB5503@cogitation.org> Message-ID: Greetings, As a DC native, I may be able to assist with either providing or obtaining lodging for the Pycon 2005 conference. Please contact me privately at the address posted below. Kindest Regards, Paul Flint /*************************************************************** * To contact me try: * * Paul Flint VOX 202 537 0480 * * EMAIL flint@flint.com HOME 703 524 1657 * * WEB http://www.flint.com * ***************************************************************/ To speed delivery please send plain text not HTML mail. From amk at amk.ca Sun Mar 20 21:53:19 2005 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Sun Mar 20 21:54:00 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] SMTP server for wireless users Message-ID: <20050320205319.GA23466@rogue.amk.ca> The wireless setup at GWU screens out packets to port 25, presumably as an anti-spam measure. This means you can't send outgoing mail. I've tweaked my SMTP server to act as a relay for machines using the wireless network. To use it, configure your mail program to use a.mx.amk.ca, port 8025, as your outgoing SMTP server. I'll leave this server available for the rest of PyCon. Please bear in mind that this server is on a DSL line, so extremely large messages will be slow. --amk From amk at amk.ca Sun Mar 20 22:21:55 2005 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Sun Mar 20 22:22:35 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Weblogging PyCon Message-ID: <20050320212155.GC23466@rogue.amk.ca> Just a reminder: if you're sprinting and have gotten something accomplished, please weblog it. We'd all love to hear about what's being done. Also: if you're taking pictures, you could post them to Flickr (www.flickr.com) with the tag "pycon2005". --amk From goodger at python.org Mon Mar 21 03:24:30 2005 From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger) Date: Mon Mar 21 03:24:38 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] SMTP server for wireless users In-Reply-To: <20050320205319.GA23466@rogue.amk.ca> References: <20050320205319.GA23466@rogue.amk.ca> Message-ID: <423E305E.4060405@python.org> [A.M. Kuchling] > The wireless setup at GWU screens out packets to port 25, presumably > as an anti-spam measure. This means you can't send outgoing mail. Brett and I got the names of the GWU tech staff, their office numbers, and their start times today, and will be demanding answers (in a nice way) tomorrow. Will keep the list informed. ...because although it's a kind gift that Andrew has given us, we probably don't want over 400 people hammering his DSL-connected mail server. -- David Goodger -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 253 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pycon2005-attendees/attachments/20050320/487d5ab1/signature.pgp From sdeibel at wingware.com Mon Mar 21 04:08:22 2005 From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel) Date: Mon Mar 21 04:09:51 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] SMTP server for wireless users In-Reply-To: <423E305E.4060405@python.org> References: <20050320205319.GA23466@rogue.amk.ca> <423E305E.4060405@python.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Mar 2005, David Goodger wrote: > [A.M. Kuchling] > > The wireless setup at GWU screens out packets to port 25, presumably > > as an anti-spam measure. This means you can't send outgoing mail. > > Brett and I got the names of the GWU tech staff, their office numbers, > and their start times today, and will be demanding answers (in a nice > way) tomorrow. Will keep the list informed. > > ...because although it's a kind gift that Andrew has given us, we > probably don't want over 400 people hammering his DSL-connected mail > server. Another soln is tunneling to your SMTP server via ssh: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/howto/howto-sshtunnel.html (Assumes however that you can log into your SMTP server w/ ssh) - Stephan From nbastin at mac.com Mon Mar 21 05:01:14 2005 From: nbastin at mac.com (Nicholas Bastin) Date: Mon Mar 21 05:02:12 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] SMTP server for wireless users In-Reply-To: <423E305E.4060405@python.org> References: <20050320205319.GA23466@rogue.amk.ca> <423E305E.4060405@python.org> Message-ID: <1702fd1405447e8117af860080b7924c@mac.com> On Mar 20, 2005, at 9:24 PM, David Goodger wrote: > [A.M. Kuchling] >> The wireless setup at GWU screens out packets to port 25, presumably >> as an anti-spam measure. This means you can't send outgoing mail. > > Brett and I got the names of the GWU tech staff, their office numbers, > and their start times today, and will be demanding answers (in a nice > way) tomorrow. Will keep the list informed. Just to note, this is exactly the way it was last year - doesn't seem like much of a departure from past policy. -- Nick From foom at fuhm.net Mon Mar 21 05:13:31 2005 From: foom at fuhm.net (James Y Knight) Date: Mon Mar 21 05:13:38 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] SMTP server for wireless users In-Reply-To: <423E305E.4060405@python.org> References: <20050320205319.GA23466@rogue.amk.ca> <423E305E.4060405@python.org> Message-ID: <3269a92f081a16bd7922672d0b882df6@fuhm.net> On Mar 20, 2005, at 9:24 PM, David Goodger wrote: > Brett and I got the names of the GWU tech staff, their office numbers, > and their start times today, and will be demanding answers (in a nice > way) tomorrow. Will keep the list informed. Instead of demanding answers of GWU for quite reasonably blocking 25 out, get your ISP to provide Message Submission Protocol. That is, essentially: authenticated SMTP on port 587. http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2476.html James From amk at amk.ca Mon Mar 21 14:11:08 2005 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Mon Mar 21 14:11:51 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Millennium Stage at the Kennedy Center Message-ID: <20050321131108.GA28165@rogue.amk.ca> The Kennedy Center has free performances at 6PM every night on their Millennium Stage. You can walk half a dozen blocks to the Kennedy Center, or you can go to the Metro and catch the red shuttle bus. This week's performances: Monday, March 21, 2005 Baton Rouge Magnet High School Baton Rouge Magnet High School presents Baton Rouge: Where the Arts Are Alive, exploring the vibrant arts scene in their hometown. Tuesday, March 22, 2005 Natomas Charter School Kennedy Center Alliance for Arts Education Network - National School of Distinction Winner: Natomas Charter School presents Convergence about the importance of collaboration among artists. Wednesday, March 23, 2005 Florida Youth Orchestra The Florida Youth Orchestra, under the direction of Music Director Thomas Sleeper, is nearly 300 members strong and continues to be recognized as Florida's premier youth orchestra. Thursday, March 24, 2005 The Washington Opera Insight Lecture Series WNO Insights Lecture Series presents Tchaikovsky's The Maid of Orleans about Joan of Arc, a passionate crusader who finds love in the arms of an enemy. Friday, March 25, 2005 The Airmen of Note '40s Fridays: U.S. Airmen of Note, under the direction of Master Sgt. Alan Baylock, was created in 1950 to carry on the tradition of Glenn Miller's Army Air Corps dance band and is the premier jazz ensemble of the United States Air Force. Saturday, March 26, 2005 Mariana Lima French horn artist Mariana Lima is currently pursuing her doctorate in horn performance at Catholic University and teaches at St. Anselm's Abbey. Sunday, March 27, 2005 The Washington Toho Koto Society Washington Toho Koto Society, founded in 1971 by Kyoko Okamoto, presents a repertoire ranging from early 17th-century koto music to contemporary compositions. Full schedule: http://www.kennedy-center.org/programs/millennium/schedule.html --amk From frankw at p-wave.com Mon Mar 21 15:44:48 2005 From: frankw at p-wave.com (Frank Wilder) Date: Mon Mar 21 15:44:36 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] shared lodging for conference In-Reply-To: <20050319193448.GC13774@tummy.com> References: <423B1F28.5010706@rubic.com> <20050319193448.GC13774@tummy.com> Message-ID: <423EDDE0.9020905@p-wave.com> Sean Reifschneider wrote: >On Fri, Mar 18, 2005 at 12:34:16PM -0600, Jeff Bauer wrote: > > >>If anyone is looking for a roommate and has a motel >>room within walking distance of the conference, please >>contact me. Thanks. >> >> > >A few comments: > > Staying close to GWU is EXPENSIVE. Last year we stayed at the hotel at > 1 George Washington Circle, and got a really good deal, something like > $125/night. This year it was more like $200 and at night the ice > weasels came. The hospital is right across the street and, particularly > on the weekend nights the ambuilances kept us up all night. > > The Metro is great, so it's more important to stay close to a Metro stop > than to stay within walking distance. The Metro stop is 2 blocks from > GWU. You want the Foggy Bottom Metro stop. > >Sean > > You can always try to snag a room through Priceline. I checked out the details on making a good bid first at http://p070.ezboard.com/fpricelineandexpediabiddingwashingtondcbaltimorenovirginia and I was able to get a room for my family for $65/night at the Marriot Washington Westend ( 1221 22nd Street NW -- I guess it about 5 blocks away) You have to add a few $$$ for parking, but my family wanted to be downtown to take advantage of the sites. Frank -- ************************************************************** Frank Wilder P-Wave.com http://P-Wave.com 531 Canal St frankw@p-wave.com Suite #304 tel 610-372-7890 x26 Reading, PA 19602 fax 610-372-9902 Breaking Communications Barriers From stefano at pragma2000.com Mon Mar 21 16:02:00 2005 From: stefano at pragma2000.com (Stefano Masini) Date: Mon Mar 21 16:13:13 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] International Student Center far away? Message-ID: <423EE1E8.5000300@pragma2000.com> Hello, I'm staying at the International Student Center. It's located at 2451 18th Street N.W., but I'm not from DC, and don't really know how far that is from PyCon. Anybody knows if it's within walking distance? Are there buses in case it's too far? Is it a quiet area? Or is it noisy/dangerous? I'm sure I'll quickly find out tomorrow, but I'm just curious. Thanks, stefano From mdboom at jhu.edu Mon Mar 21 16:29:05 2005 From: mdboom at jhu.edu (Michael Droettboom) Date: Mon Mar 21 16:29:10 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] International Student Center far away? In-Reply-To: <423EE1E8.5000300@pragma2000.com> References: <423EE1E8.5000300@pragma2000.com> Message-ID: <423EE841.8020509@jhu.edu> The Washington Metro Transit Authority has a great trip planner that can help get anywhere on bus/metro. In general, the transit system is very good for a U.S. city. http://www.wmata.com/ Mike Stefano Masini wrote: > Hello, > > I'm staying at the International Student Center. It's located at 2451 > 18th Street N.W., but I'm not from DC, and don't really know how far > that is from PyCon. > > Anybody knows if it's within walking distance? Are there buses in case > it's too far? > > Is it a quiet area? Or is it noisy/dangerous? > > I'm sure I'll quickly find out tomorrow, but I'm just curious. > > Thanks, > stefano > _______________________________________________ > Pycon2005-attendees mailing list > Pycon2005-attendees@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon2005-attendees From efm at tummy.com Mon Mar 21 09:40:48 2005 From: efm at tummy.com (Evelyn Mitchell) Date: Mon Mar 21 16:42:11 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] International Student Center far away? In-Reply-To: <423EE1E8.5000300@pragma2000.com> References: <423EE1E8.5000300@pragma2000.com> Message-ID: <20050321084048.GA6965@tummy.com> I used maps.google.com on these addresses: Start address: 2541 18th St NE, Washington, DC 20018 End address: 800 21st St NW, Washington, DC 20006 Distance: 4.8 mi (about 10 mins) Reverse directions 1. Head south from 18th St NE - go 0.2 mi 2. Bear left at Montana Ave NE - go 0.2 mi 3. Bear right and head toward New York Ave NE - go 0.1 mi 4. Bear right at New York Ave NE - go 1.7 mi 5. Continue on New York Ave NW - go 0.8 mi 6. Continue on Mt Vernon Pl NW - go 0.1 mi 7. Bear right at Massachusetts Ave NW - go 0.4 mi 8. Bear right at Thomas Cir NW - go 0.0 mi 9. Bear left at M St NW - go 0.8 mi 10. Turn left at 21st St NW - go 0.4 mi You're quite far away, and not close to the metro. We stayed on New York Avenue for PyCon 2003 and found it quite inconvenient. I suggest you use the RideGuide to help you get back and forth: rideguide.wmta.com It will give you current directions for bus times and metro stops that you'll need to get back and forth. Evelyn Mitchell * On 2005-03-21 08:18 Stefano Masini wrote: > Hello, > > I'm staying at the International Student Center. It's located at 2451 > 18th Street N.W., but I'm not from DC, and don't really know how far > that is from PyCon. > > Anybody knows if it's within walking distance? Are there buses in case > it's too far? > > Is it a quiet area? Or is it noisy/dangerous? > > I'm sure I'll quickly find out tomorrow, but I'm just curious. > > Thanks, > stefano > _______________________________________________ > Pycon2005-attendees mailing list > Pycon2005-attendees@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon2005-attendees -- Regards, tummy.com, ltd Evelyn Mitchell Linux Consulting since 1995 efm@tummy.com Senior System and Network Administrators http://www.tummy.com/ From rfinn at opnet.com Mon Mar 21 17:41:21 2005 From: rfinn at opnet.com (Russell Finn) Date: Mon Mar 21 17:41:35 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] International Student Center far away? In-Reply-To: <20050321084048.GA6965@tummy.com> References: <423EE1E8.5000300@pragma2000.com> <20050321084048.GA6965@tummy.com> Message-ID: <75244876ef7a6275756e1f45820adc75@opnet.com> On Mar 21, 2005, at 3:40 AM, Evelyn Mitchell wrote: > * On 2005-03-21 08:18 Stefano Masini wrote: >> Hello, >> >> I'm staying at the International Student Center. It's located at 2451 >> 18th Street N.W., but I'm not from DC, and don't really know how far >> that is from PyCon. >> >> Anybody knows if it's within walking distance? Are there buses in case >> it's too far? > > I used maps.google.com on these addresses: > Start address: 2541 18th St NE, Washington, DC 20018 > End address: 800 21st St NW, Washington, DC 20006 > Distance: 4.8 mi (about 10 mins) ... but Stefano says he's at 2451 18th Street NW, not NE. You put him 36 blocks away from his actual location. :-) Unfortunately Google couldn't come up with a match for that address, but there's an International Student House at 1825 R St NW, which I think is the same building but facing the other street. In that case, you're only about a mile away (twelve blocks or so), which is easily within walking distance, and through a decent neighborhood. See here for a map: -- Russell Finn From yuba at conwaycorp.net Mon Mar 21 18:26:21 2005 From: yuba at conwaycorp.net (yuba@conwaycorp.net) Date: Mon Mar 21 18:53:05 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] (no subject) Message-ID: <1111425981.423f03bdc078a@mail.conwaycorp.net> >... but Stefano says he's at 2451 18th Street NW, not NE. You put him >36 blocks away from his actual location. :-) That sounds more like it!! I'm arriving into National Airport about 6:00, so I'm guessing I'll hit GW Student Center about 7:30 or so. I was under the impression that there was a metro stop at the airport and one near the Student Center (all my documentation is back at home and I'm at work). Am I going to be able to get to the International Studnet Center from National? Thanks! --greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Conway Corporation WebMail -- www.conwaycorp.net From stefano at pragma2000.com Mon Mar 21 19:15:26 2005 From: stefano at pragma2000.com (Stefano Masini) Date: Mon Mar 21 19:15:27 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] International Student Center far away? In-Reply-To: <1111425981.423f03bdc078a@mail.conwaycorp.net> References: <1111425981.423f03bdc078a@mail.conwaycorp.net> Message-ID: <423F0F3E.2050403@pragma2000.com> yuba@conwaycorp.net wrote: > >>... but Stefano says he's at 2451 18th Street NW, not NE. You put him >>36 blocks away from his actual location. :-) Pfeww! :) > That sounds more like it!! I'm arriving into National Airport about 6:00, so > I'm guessing I'll hit GW Student Center about 7:30 or so. I was under the > impression that there was a metro stop at the airport and one near the Student > Center (all my documentation is back at home and I'm at work). Am I going to > be able to get to the International Studnet Center from National? I'm in your same situation. As far as I could tell from the airport website, there should be a shuttle bringing from the airport to the metro stop. And then, from the metro stop we should be able to get quite near the Student Center. From the student center there should be bus lines H1 and L2 going right into the campus, if walking for a dozen blocks is too much. If I'm wrong, anybody from DC please correct me. Anyway, thanks for the many responses! -stefano From amk at amk.ca Mon Mar 21 19:23:13 2005 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Mon Mar 21 19:23:57 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] International Student Center far away? In-Reply-To: <423F0F3E.2050403@pragma2000.com> References: <1111425981.423f03bdc078a@mail.conwaycorp.net> <423F0F3E.2050403@pragma2000.com> Message-ID: <20050321182313.GA30818@rogue.amk.ca> On Mon, Mar 21, 2005 at 07:15:26PM +0100, Stefano Masini wrote: > As far as I could tell from the airport website, there should be a > shuttle bringing from the airport to the metro stop. And then, from the > metro stop we should be able to get quite near the Student Center. You don't need a shuttle if you're arriving at National; there's a walkway to the metro. You'll need to take the blue line train to PyCon; don't take the yellow train by accident. If you're arriving at Dulles, you will need to take a shuttle; that shuttle will take you to West Falls Church station on the orange line. PyCon is at the Foggy Bottom station on the orange and blue lines. --amk From edwardam at interlix.com Mon Mar 21 19:34:42 2005 From: edwardam at interlix.com (Edward Muller) Date: Mon Mar 21 19:34:19 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Transfer Registration Message-ID: <200503211234.42314.edwardam@interlix.com> I will not be able to attend pycon due to personal and business obligations that require my presence later this week. Is it possible to transfer my registration to someone else? If so, does anyone know of someone who wants to attend, but couldn't afford it? Would that person be able to go with such short notice? If not, pycon can consider my registration a donation. -- Edward Muller - Interlix edwardam@interlix.com 417-862-0573 From cgillett at compete.com Mon Mar 21 19:53:08 2005 From: cgillett at compete.com (Christopher Gillett) Date: Mon Mar 21 19:53:15 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] wxPython users/experts attending PyCon 2005? Message-ID: <89E432C6F67E234E92DD283281B717A551839D@winops03.win.compete.com> We use Python for a lot of our middleware and back end tools here. We also use wxPython on Windows for some front-end work. At the moment I am developing a new tool for our suite, and I'm stuck on what looks for all the world like a bug in wx, but will almost assuredly prove to be something stupid on my part. Are there any wxPython experts, developers, enthusiasts attending PyCon 2005? If so, I'd love to hear from you and perhaps pick your brain for 15 minutes during the conference. I'm giving two presentations - one about the Compete File System, and another about query directed data mining - so I should be "findable" at the Conference. In my view, debugging and geek-speak about code and such is best accomplished over a cold beer, but I digress.... Looking forward to the conference... Chris Gillett ...................................................... Christopher Gillett Chief Software Architect Compete, Inc. Four Copley Place Suite 700 Boston, MA 02116 cgillett@compete.com www.compete.com ...................................................... "Compete is pioneering the analysis of consumer behavior." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pycon2005-attendees/attachments/20050321/712353ba/attachment.html From jbauer at rubic.com Mon Mar 21 20:00:13 2005 From: jbauer at rubic.com (Jeff Bauer) Date: Mon Mar 21 19:59:53 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] transportation to Fairfax, VA? Message-ID: <423F19BD.6030207@rubic.com> I need a lift to Fairfax, VA on Friday after the conference. I'll be happy to compensate for the cost of transportation to avoid the hassle and expense of taxi service. I can be flexible on the departure time. If anyone living in the Fairfax area is attending the conference on Friday and has room for a extra rider and luggage, please contact me. Thanks. -Jeff From goodger at python.org Tue Mar 22 00:26:34 2005 From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger) Date: Tue Mar 22 00:26:38 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] SMTP server for wireless users In-Reply-To: <423E305E.4060405@python.org> References: <20050320205319.GA23466@rogue.amk.ca> <423E305E.4060405@python.org> Message-ID: <423F582A.4000705@python.org> The latest word on sending email is that for wired connections we can use smtp.gwu.edu, port 25. This doesn't work for wireless though, and the IT staff can't change this and don't have an alternative. -- David Goodger -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 253 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pycon2005-attendees/attachments/20050321/8e047890/signature.pgp From mclay at python.net Tue Mar 22 04:39:18 2005 From: mclay at python.net (Michael McLay) Date: Tue Mar 22 04:39:23 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] transportation to Fairfax, VA? In-Reply-To: <423F19BD.6030207@rubic.com> References: <423F19BD.6030207@rubic.com> Message-ID: <200503212239.18302.mclay@python.net> On Monday 21 March 2005 14:00, Jeff Bauer wrote: > I need a lift to Fairfax, VA on Friday after the > conference. I'll be happy to compensate for the cost > of transportation to avoid the hassle and expense of > taxi service. I can be flexible on the departure > time. If anyone living in the Fairfax area is attending > the conference on Friday and has room for a extra > rider and luggage, please contact me. Thanks. It' s not on my route home, but if you can't line up a ride to Fairfax I'd be glad to give you a lift. It's not too far out of the way. See you at the conference From fred at adventistcare.org Tue Mar 22 14:00:44 2005 From: fred at adventistcare.org (Sells, Fred) Date: Tue Mar 22 14:00:52 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] (no subject) Message-ID: <777056A4A8F1D21180EF0008C7DF75EE03317400@sunbelt.org> I've used the metro stop at national. it was an easy walk before national was remodeled. have not been there in a while. -----Original Message----- From: yuba@conwaycorp.net [mailto:yuba@conwaycorp.net] Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 12:26 PM To: pycon2005-attendees@python.org Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] (no subject) >... but Stefano says he's at 2451 18th Street NW, not NE. You put him >36 blocks away from his actual location. :-) That sounds more like it!! I'm arriving into National Airport about 6:00, so I'm guessing I'll hit GW Student Center about 7:30 or so. I was under the impression that there was a metro stop at the airport and one near the Student Center (all my documentation is back at home and I'm at work). Am I going to be able to get to the International Studnet Center from National? Thanks! --greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - This message was sent using Conway Corporation WebMail -- www.conwaycorp.net _______________________________________________ Pycon2005-attendees mailing list Pycon2005-attendees@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon2005-attendees From goodger at python.org Tue Mar 22 14:14:28 2005 From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger) Date: Tue Mar 22 14:14:33 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] outgoing mail from PyCon Message-ID: <42401A34.40201@python.org> GWU blocks port 25 for wireless users. Peter Wang of Enthought has graciously donated alternate-port SMTP service for all PyCon attendees, from within GWU's network, both wired and wireless. To use, please connect to server: pyconmail.dnsalias.net port: 8025 Wired connections only can use GWU's SMTP server: server: smtp.gwu.edu port: 25 As a backup, Andrew Kuchling's home server accepts connections also, but it's a DSL connection so please be gentle: server: a.mx.amk.ca port: 8025 Thanks go to Peter and Andrew for setting this up. If there are any issues, please let me know. -- David Goodger -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 253 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pycon2005-attendees/attachments/20050322/ba0a6dbc/signature.pgp From kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu Tue Mar 22 18:08:44 2005 From: kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu (Kevin Cole) Date: Tue Mar 22 18:14:06 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] International Student Center far away? In-Reply-To: <20050321084048.GA6965@tummy.com> References: <423EE1E8.5000300@pragma2000.com> <20050321084048.GA6965@tummy.com> Message-ID: <20050322170844.GA1312@gri.gallaudet.edu> * On 2005-03-21 08:18 Stefano Masini wrote: > I'm staying at the International Student Center. It's located at > 2451 18th Street N.W., but I'm not from DC, and don't really know > how far that is from PyCon. > > Anybody knows if it's within walking distance? Are there buses in > case it's too far? > > Is it a quiet area? Or is it noisy/dangerous? I just got back from hosteling in Seattle late last night, so this info is probably a bit too late to be of much use to you. You've probably found out all you need to know by now... But, speaking as a DC resident who lives quite close to where you're staying, * Define "Walking Distance". ;-) Considering your choice of accomodations, you probably walk a reasonable amount. If you're up at a reasonable hour, it's "walking distance" by my definition, but I'm a late riser, so I'll walk HOME, but probably take public transit to arrive early enough for the start of things. * You'll be in the heart of Adams Morgan. * The Washington Metro Area Transit Authority (WMATA, pronounced "wuh-matta") has a web site, but it can be a wee bit slow. Stay away from the interactive map. * The closest Metrorail is Woodley Park/National Zoo/Adams Morgan, about an 8 minute walk from the ISC. That's on the Red Line. You'll either have to transfer to the Orange or Blue lines at Metro Center station, or get off at Dupont Circle or Farragut North and walk. (If you opt for transferring, get off at Metro Center and look for an escalator going DOWN. At that point catch either the Orange Line to Vienna or a Blue Line to Franconia/Springfield. Ride 3 stops from Metro Center. System maps available at: http://www.wmata.com/tripplanner/maps.cfm * The most direct route from where you are to PyCon is probably the bus. The L1 bus has a stop a block from PyCon. You'll need to walk west to Connecticut Avenue to pick it up. However, it's not the most frequent of buses so check the schedule. Schedule available at: http://www.wmata.com/timetables/dc/L1-2-4.pdf * Adams Morgan has a lot of night life, clubs, restaurants. Noisy, but relatively safe, provided you're not in the area at 2 AM. (There HAS been serious trouble in the area after the bars have closed, so don't wander around late at night.) If you have not dined on Ethiopian cuisine, you'd do well to indulge while staying in Adams Morgan. Lots of Ethiopian restaurants. (Personal favorite is the Meskerem, about a block or two north of where you're staying on the west side of 18th Street, a block south of Columbia Road.) Hope that helps! -- Kevin Cole | Key ID: 0xE6F332C7 Gallaudet University | WWW: http://gri.gallaudet.edu/~kjcole/ Hall Memorial Bldg S-419 | V/TTY: (202) 651-5135 Washington, D.C. 20002-3695 | FAX: (202) 651-5746 "Using vi is not a sin. It's a penance." -- St. IGNUcious, Church of Emacs From kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu Tue Mar 22 18:24:46 2005 From: kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu (Kevin Cole) Date: Tue Mar 22 18:30:01 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] International Student Center far away? In-Reply-To: <423F0F3E.2050403@pragma2000.com> References: <1111425981.423f03bdc078a@mail.conwaycorp.net> <423F0F3E.2050403@pragma2000.com> Message-ID: <20050322172446.GB1312@gri.gallaudet.edu> The airport is directly connected to the Metrorail. No need for a shuttle. Look for signs in National Airport directing you to the Metro bridge. When you enter the station, after getting your fare card, be sure to pick up a bus transfer. (Get them when ENTERING the system -- i.e. at National not when LEAVING. Some bus drivers get persnickity about that.) From the airport you can catch either the Blue line or the Yellow line into the city. (Blue Line to Largo Town Center or Yellow Line to Mt. Vernon Square/7th St Convention Center.) Get off at Foggy Bottom GWU for PyCon. Or transfer to the Red Line (either at Metro Center or Gallery Place, depending on which line you're on) and get off at Woodley Park/National Zoo/Adams Morgan for the ISC. There are a few different buses from the Metrorail station to the ISC. The cheapest is the U Street/Cardoza Link buses, which are smaller than the regular city buses. Might even be free with the transfer. -- Kevin Cole | Key ID: 0xE6F332C7 Gallaudet University | WWW: http://gri.gallaudet.edu/~kjcole/ Hall Memorial Bldg S-419 | V/TTY: (202) 651-5135 Washington, D.C. 20002-3695 | FAX: (202) 651-5746 "Using vi is not a sin. It's a penance." -- St. IGNUcious, Church of Emacs From kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu Tue Mar 22 18:26:46 2005 From: kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu (Kevin Cole) Date: Tue Mar 22 18:32:00 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] International Student Center far away? In-Reply-To: <423F0F3E.2050403@pragma2000.com> References: <1111425981.423f03bdc078a@mail.conwaycorp.net> <423F0F3E.2050403@pragma2000.com> Message-ID: <20050322172646.GC1312@gri.gallaudet.edu> Oops. I'm still a bit jet-lagged. Yellow line won't go past Foggy Bottom GWU, so it's not a good choice for Airport to Pycon, though it's still of use if you're heading to the ISC first. From chad at zetaweb.com Wed Mar 23 00:54:06 2005 From: chad at zetaweb.com (Chad Whitacre) Date: Wed Mar 23 00:55:08 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] transfer registration Message-ID: <4240B01E.8000003@zetaweb.com> Hello, Not sure who to send this too, but I am not going to make it to the conference and would like if possible to transfer my registration to Isaac Levy of NYC (copied here). Thanks. Chad Whitacre From amk at amk.ca Wed Mar 23 14:29:15 2005 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Wed Mar 23 14:30:04 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Wednesday's open space talks Message-ID: <20050323132915.GA12323@rogue.amk.ca> Here's the list of today's open space talks, current as of 8:20AM. Talks can be added at any time; you should check the open space board, located next to registration, for updates throughout the day. Room 310 11:00 A quick 'n dirty Python IPC mechanism 12:00 Hypertoons in VPython 2:30 Adapters 3:30 Python at Subaru Telescope 4:00 How Python is Developed 4:30 Build web applications with Aquarium Room 307 3:30 Python Q&A (Volunteers to answer questions are also needed for this.) 5:30 Ideas & Plans for Pycon 2006 6:00 Schevo Q&A --amk From jim at zope.com Wed Mar 23 14:53:22 2005 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Wed Mar 23 14:53:30 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Lost: Palm Tungsten T3 Handheld Message-ID: <424174D2.5000605@zope.com> I've misplaced my Palm Tungsten T3 handheld. I fear I left it in the sprint room (307) yesterday. If anyone found it, could you please give it to me (or Tim Peters, Fred Drake, or Zach Bir.) Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From efm at tummy.com Wed Mar 23 17:06:30 2005 From: efm at tummy.com (Evelyn Mitchell) Date: Thu Mar 24 00:07:41 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Evening events? Message-ID: <20050323160630.GC15927@tummy.com> Are there any Birds of a Feather sessions planned for this evening? -- Regards, tummy.com, ltd Evelyn Mitchell Linux Consulting since 1995 efm@tummy.com Senior System and Network Administrators http://www.tummy.com/ From efm at tummy.com Thu Mar 24 09:34:29 2005 From: efm at tummy.com (Evelyn Mitchell) Date: Thu Mar 24 16:35:49 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Python/Business dinner Message-ID: <20050324083429.GA30098@tummy.com> For those of us who are interested in Business issues, I'm organizing a dinner tonight at TGIFridays (tenatively) at 7:30. TGIFridays is located across I street from the Conference Center. -- Regards, tummy.com, ltd Evelyn Mitchell Linux Consulting since 1995 efm@tummy.com Senior System and Network Administrators http://www.tummy.com/ From efm at tummy.com Thu Mar 24 10:01:29 2005 From: efm at tummy.com (Evelyn Mitchell) Date: Thu Mar 24 17:02:45 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Python/Business dinner In-Reply-To: References: <20050324083429.GA30098@tummy.com> Message-ID: <20050324090129.GA30759@tummy.com> * On 2005-03-24 08:48 Ed Leafe wrote: > On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:34:29 +0000, Evelyn Mitchell wrote: > > For those of us who are interested in Business issues, I'm organizing a > > dinner tonight at TGIFridays (tenatively) at 7:30. > > What sort of Business issues? Whatever you'd like to talk about. This is a chance for the 'suits' to get to know each other. -- Regards, tummy.com, ltd Evelyn Mitchell Linux Consulting since 1995 efm@tummy.com Senior System and Network Administrators http://www.tummy.com/ From sdeibel at wingware.com Thu Mar 24 17:49:01 2005 From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel) Date: Thu Mar 24 17:46:32 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] PSF donors / sponsors / volunteers Message-ID: Hi, Here are the URLs from the last slide from my quick intro to the PSF, given after Guido's keynote this morning: Donate: http://python.org/psf/donations Tax deductible! Sponsor: http://python.org/psf/sponsors Volunteer: http://python.org/psf/volunteer Please consider donating, sponsoring, or volunteering for the PSF. Sorry the projector hookup didn't work... Thanks! Stephan Deibel Chairman of the Board Python Software Foundation http://python.org/psf From jason.mobarak at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 21:08:25 2005 From: jason.mobarak at gmail.com (Jason Mobarak) Date: Thu Mar 24 21:08:27 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Free printers? Message-ID: Does anyone know of printers on campus for free use or pay-per-page usage? I know I can go to the kinkos that's nearby, but something on campus might be less hassle. From flint at flint.com Fri Mar 25 02:03:45 2005 From: flint at flint.com (flint@flint.com) Date: Fri Mar 25 02:03:45 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Python/Business dinner In-Reply-To: <20050324083429.GA30098@tummy.com> Message-ID: Dear Evelyn, I am indeed interested, yet predictably pressing business precludes my attendance. Kindest Regards, Paul Flint /*************************************************************** * To contact me try: * * Paul Flint VOX 202 537 0480 * * EMAIL flint@flint.com HOME 703 524 1657 * * WEB http://www.flint.com * ***************************************************************/ To speed delivery please send plain text not HTML mail. On Thu, 24 Mar 2005, Evelyn Mitchell wrote: > For those of us who are interested in Business issues, I'm organizing a > dinner tonight at TGIFridays (tenatively) at 7:30. > > TGIFridays is located across I street from the Conference Center. > > -- > Regards, tummy.com, ltd > Evelyn Mitchell Linux Consulting since 1995 > efm@tummy.com Senior System and Network Administrators > http://www.tummy.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Pycon2005-attendees mailing list > Pycon2005-attendees@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon2005-attendees > From john at clocksoft.com Fri Mar 25 04:10:20 2005 From: john at clocksoft.com (John Pinner) Date: Fri Mar 25 04:10:38 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] EuroPython 2005 Message-ID: <4243811C.7070704@clocksoft.com> Hello All, This is just to tell you all about another fine Python community conference : EuroPython which takes place in Sweden at G?teborg from 27th to 29th June. There are sprints both before and after the conference itself. EuroPython has the same kind of community flavour as PyCon, with even more of an international feel. The conference is organised into themed tracks, including Scientific, Education, Frameworks, Python Language, Zope and Plone, Business and Applications and Social Skills as well as Tutorials. G?teborg is a great place to be in June, and to help with costs good quality accommodation has been reserved at the University at very reasonable costs - you can stay for as little as $25 a night. Please join us at EuroPython, better still join us _and_ give a talk! The EuroPython head honcho, Jacob Hallen, will be telling us more at PyCon tomorrow, if you want to know more please ask him, or me, in one of the breaks. Come to EuroPython this June ! John -- John Pinner intY has scanned this email for all known viruses (www.inty.com) From jeff at taupro.com Fri Mar 25 05:03:22 2005 From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush) Date: Fri Mar 25 05:00:39 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Seeking Feedback re Audio/Visual Formats for Distribution In-Reply-To: <4243811C.7070704@clocksoft.com> References: <4243811C.7070704@clocksoft.com> Message-ID: <42438D8A.80806@taupro.com> As we are in the process of recording the sessions, both with audio-only recorders and full cameras w/sound for redundancy, we recording team members have been debating the formats in which to make the results available to the attendees. The audio will be broken up into individual sessions and encoded in Ogg Vorbis, because its an open format, and MP3, because many portable devices on which attendees may wish to listen only support MP3. The video is more problematic. The easiest format for which we already have software encoders is Microsoft .wmv format, however its not an open format, per se. And the format needs to be well-supported by multiple OS platforms. With the video being rather larger than the audio, we may not be able to store multiple formats on the webserver. We'd like feedback from the attendees regarding their preferences. To avoid flooding this list with "me too's", please send responses to me at and I'll summarize. Jeff Rush, Recording Coordinator From john.m.camara at comcast.net Fri Mar 25 06:20:44 2005 From: john.m.camara at comcast.net (john.m.camara@comcast.net) Date: Fri Mar 25 06:20:47 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] The Database Divide Message-ID: <032520050520.819.42439FAB000740590000033322070032010E9D0E030E0CD203D202080106@comcast.net> I know this is a bit long for a post but I’m hoping someone will benefit from this. I’m also interested in hearing your comments. The questions and comments that were made in today’s database sessions indicate that there are many developers who have a one track mind vision when it comes to database types. There are those who swear by relational and then there are those who swear by object oriented ones. So who is right? Well that all depends on the application. Relational databases work great for some applications and object orient ones are great for others. On the other hand using both types are sometimes the most appropriate approach. Typically people who write business applications tend to choose relational and those who write engineering/scientific applications use object oriented. Fortunately both groups in general are choosing the correct types of database for their application domains. This is a good thing as when you choose the wrong type of database you will tend to have to write a significant amount of unnecessary code and will likely have performance issues. The problem though, is some business applications could benefit from an object orient database. Likewise, some engineering/science applications could benefit from a relational database. It is very likely the type that is used will be the type that a particular domain prefers to use. The decision should be made based on what type of querying is required to select and use that data once it is stored in the database. I will go over two trivial applications, one from each domain and will point out some of the pros and cons to storing the data in both types of database. The first application will be one that consists of drawings that are made with lines. The class is shown next with a few instances of Line and a list to represent the drawing. class Line(object): def __init__(self, x1, y1, x2, y2, red, green, blue): self.x1 = x1 self.y1 = y1 self.x2 = x2 self.y2 = y2 self.red = red self.green = green self.blue = blue l1 = Line(0, 0, 1, 1, 255, 0, 0) l2 = Line(1, 1, 2, 2, 0, 255, 0) l3 = Line(2, 2, 3, 3, 0, 0, 255) drawing = [l1, l2, l3] Object Oriented approach: Storage Create a table to store drawings Pickle the drawing list Store pickle object with a key = drawingName Retrieval Get pickle object with key = drawingName Unpickle object Use objects Pros: Only a couple lines of code needed for storage and retrieval is very fast Cons: None Relational approach: Storage Create a table to store drawings Create a table to store lines Insert a new row of data into the drawings table storing an ID for a Primary key and name under drawingName For each Line in drawing add a row to the lines table and insert the appropriate data Retrieval Perform a query on the drawings and lines table to retrieve all line records associated with the drawing of interest. Create an empty drawing list Unpack the data for each row and create a Line Object Append each Line object to drawing list Use objects Pros: None (assuming there is no need to do arbitrarily queries on the endpoints and color properties) Cons: Far more code to write than Object Oriented approach and retrieval is slower. --- For the second application we will save information about some artists and instead of going through all the details of both database approaches I will just talk about the pros and cons. class Person(objects): def __init__(self, name, age, address): self.name = name self.age = age self.address = address p1 = Person(...) ... p3 = Person(...) lineArtists = [p1, p2, p3] Relational Approach Pros: Very easy to create flexible searches Cons: Slower retrieval Object Orient Approach Pros: Fast Retrieval Cons: It will take quite a bit of code in order to have a flexible querying capability. --- The structure of the classes/objects in each application is similar yet in one case it makes sense to use an object oriented database and in the other a relational database. The approach that was best for the application was based on the types of queries that were required. In the first case only a query by drawingName was required and in the second case it was necessary to be able to perform flexible queries over all the fields. Now what would you do if you had an application that needed to store data on Artists who created line drawings and you also needed to save the line drawings. Well you might want to think about using both database types to take advantages of their strengths. Store the artist data in a relational database as well as the drawingNames for each drawing an Artist has created. Then save the drawing data into an object database. To retrieve drawing data for a particular drawing from a particular Artist, you would first query the relational database first to retrieve the drawingName. Then retrieve the drawing from the object database using the drawingName as the key. The best of both worlds. The least amount of code and higher performance. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pycon2005-attendees/attachments/20050325/e42d8c47/attachment-0001.html From stefano at pragma2000.com Fri Mar 25 07:53:05 2005 From: stefano at pragma2000.com (Stefano Masini) Date: Fri Mar 25 13:53:08 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] The Database Divide In-Reply-To: <032520050520.819.42439FAB000740590000033322070032010E9D0E030E0CD203D202080106@comcast.net> References: <032520050520.819.42439FAB000740590000033322070032010E9D0E030E0CD203D202080106@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4243B551.4020509@pragma2000.com> [ I hope this is not too OT ] John, I don't believe in this relational vs. obj oriented division of the world. Relational databases are complex systems that provide many features for retrieving data and for enforcing integrity rules. On the other hand object oriented approaches generally share the common decision of using a very thin layer of simple object persistance mechanism. Therefore, by going down the road of object oriented, it's not like choosing black instead of white, or viceversa. It's more about deciding to polish on the functionalities provided by the storage framework and rather move all of the business logic inside the program, instead of having it in the DBMS. I find your examples rather simplistic. You can't really say that the relational approach is more complicated because it forces you to write complex queries. A number of systems for automatically generate sql have proliferated, and people have done a very good job at it. If you are going to build a big system, you'd probably do something like this. Nobody likes writing sql. In other words, you can wrap your dbms functionality in such a way that it looks much more object oriented if you want. The real problem, in my opinion, is that even if you do wrap your DBMS, you're still stuck with the quite rigid structure of your relational database. It's not easy to refactor the structure of a database once you populated it. Ok, I can already hear hundreds of experienced db gurus jumping up and screaming: you are *not* supposed to change the structure of your database. If you do, it means that you did not do a good analysis to begin with. And they're right. But this is somewhat opposite to the priciples that XP is trying to promote. That is you are *encouraged* to refactor your code as much as possible, because when you begin a project you don't yet know where you'll end up, so don't even try to do early overdesigning, but do little steps at a time and change your mind if you need to. In this respect I think a pure object oriented approach to the problem of storing and retrieving data could help. Refactoring in such a world is probably a less painful operation to do than in a relational world. As far as retrieving data is concerned, I don't think that object oriented is limiting. You are assuming you can organize your data using only simple data structures like lists and dictionaries, but nobody prevents you from using more complex stuff, like btrees. There are tons of indexing techniques one may use to speed up retrieval. David Binger yesterday was talking about this when somebody brought up the question. And he's right: you can choose the data structure you find most appropriate. Think simple to begin with, and if performance becomes a concern, then begin using something more complex and performant. Well. These were my 2 cents. Thanks for bringing this up. cheers, -stefano From yuba at conwaycorp.net Fri Mar 25 13:55:56 2005 From: yuba at conwaycorp.net (yuba@conwaycorp.net) Date: Fri Mar 25 13:55:58 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] The Database Divide In-Reply-To: <032520050520.819.42439FAB000740590000033322070032010E9D0E030E0CD203D202080106@comcast.net> References: <032520050520.819.42439FAB000740590000033322070032010E9D0E030E0CD203D202080106@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1111755356.42440a5c6add2@mail.conwaycorp.net> John, Great post, thank-you. I was a little taken back by the attitudes shown (on both sides) of the relational v object database issue. Could it be that we, as Python programmers, get a little nervous when "there's more than one way to do it" . Your post was refreshing,pointing out pros and cons to each method and I can only hope attitudes like yours will win the day. --greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Conway Corporation WebMail -- www.conwaycorp.net From pobrien at orbtech.com Fri Mar 25 14:02:15 2005 From: pobrien at orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien) Date: Fri Mar 25 14:02:24 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] The Database Divide In-Reply-To: <032520050520.819.42439FAB000740590000033322070032010E9D0E030E0CD203D202080106@comcast.net> References: <032520050520.819.42439FAB000740590000033322070032010E9D0E030E0CD203D202080106@comcast.net> Message-ID: <42440BD7.4020808@orbtech.com> john.m.camara@comcast.net wrote: > I know this is a bit long for a post but I?m hoping someone will benefit from this. I?m also interested in hearing your comments. > > The questions and comments that were made in today?s database sessions indicate that there are many developers who have a one track mind vision when it comes to database types. There are those who swear by relational and then there are those who swear by object oriented ones. > > So who is right? Well that all depends on the application. Relational databases work great for some applications and object orient ones are great for others. On the other hand using both types are sometimes the most appropriate approach. As one of those presenters, I guess I feel somewhat obligated to respond to this. In short, I'm right and everyone else is wrong. ;-) Okay, seriously, I'm not sure I agree with your premise that it depends on the application. The situation that you describe is one most people would agree with because it is historically true. But I don't think there is anything fundamental to object databases that make them inherently worse for business apps. In fact, business applications are the target market for Schevo. In my opinion what has been lacking in most object databases is a structure for representing "relational-like" collections of instances (tables), bi-directional relationships between instances (foreign keys), relationship enforcement (referential integrity), etc. Those are the things that Schevo brings to Python object databases. As far as performance and scalability, that's a red herring. When Oracle first declared that they intended to create a commercial database based on the Relational model, they were laughed at. Nobody thought it could be done. The critics all said that Relational databases wouldn't be able to perform efficiently or scale in size. Good thing Larry Ellison didn't listen to the critics. ;-) -- Patrick K. O'Brien Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com Schevo http://www.schevo.org Pypersyst http://www.pypersyst.org From pobrien at orbtech.com Fri Mar 25 14:13:16 2005 From: pobrien at orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien) Date: Fri Mar 25 14:13:25 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] The Database Divide In-Reply-To: <1111755356.42440a5c6add2@mail.conwaycorp.net> References: <032520050520.819.42439FAB000740590000033322070032010E9D0E030E0CD203D202080106@comcast.net> <1111755356.42440a5c6add2@mail.conwaycorp.net> Message-ID: <42440E6C.400@orbtech.com> yuba@conwaycorp.net wrote: > John, > > Great post, thank-you. I was a little taken back by the attitudes shown (on > both sides) of the relational v object database issue. Could it be that we, as > Python programmers, get a little nervous when "there's more than one way to do > it" . Your post was refreshing,pointing out pros and cons to each method > and I can only hope attitudes like yours will win the day. Hmm. I think maybe some folks are sensing more attitude than any of us speakers really intend to be projecting. Or we as speakers are projecting more attitude than we realize. Or a little of both. In any case, maybe we could have an Open Space today with any and all database folks represented. As far as the three database speakers go, Ed Leafe and I had dinner together last night with some other database guys (it was me against 4 Foxpro gurus ) and David Binger would have joined us as well if I had been able to invite him before he left for the night. So I feel safe saying that we don't have any problems getting along. I think it's just the nature of the beast - object databases are quite different from relational databases and there is often a great deal of misunderstanding in both camps. I'd love to get together and chat if anyone else would. :-) -- Patrick K. O'Brien Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com Schevo http://www.schevo.org Pypersyst http://www.pypersyst.org From amk at amk.ca Fri Mar 25 14:17:50 2005 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Fri Mar 25 14:18:46 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Reminder: feedback forms Message-ID: <20050325131750.GA27914@rogue.amk.ca> Please remember to pick up a feedback form at the registration desk, complete it, and return it. You can either putting the form in the box marked 'completed feedback forms', or hand the form to the registration desk staff. There will also be a 'Convention Feedback' panel at 2:30PM in room 307, where you can give your opinions of the conference to PyCon's organizers. Please fill out a feedback form even if you attend the panel; the form has various survey questions whose answers will be very valuable for planning next year's PyCon. --amk From john.m.camara at comcast.net Fri Mar 25 14:47:06 2005 From: john.m.camara at comcast.net (john.m.camara@comcast.net) Date: Fri Mar 25 14:47:10 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] The Database Divide Message-ID: <032520051347.27680.4244165A000AAC3C00006C2022070029530E9D0E030E0CD203D202080106@comcast.net> +1 for an open session how about 3pm? I was trying to be brief in my original post and that’s the reason I stated only trivial applications. But in doing so I made the mistake of mixing embedded database with object orient databases. So in my post replace object orient with embedded. It also means that I left out the discussion about object orient databases. >From my point of view, if you have strong feelings about one type of database, you may be doing yourself a disservice as each database type has it strengths. You should use the type or types that make sense for your application. Choosing the right type reduces the amount of code that is required, gives better performance, and uses resources like CPU, storage, and bandwidth more efficiently. John -------------- Original message -------------- > yuba@conwaycorp.net wrote: > > John, > > > > Great post, thank-you. I was a little taken back by the attitudes shown (on > > both sides) of the relational v object database issue. Could it be that we, > as > > Python programmers, get a little nervous when "there's more than one way to do > > it" . Your post was refreshing,pointing out pros and cons to each > method > > and I can only hope attitudes like yours will win the day. > > Hmm. I think maybe some folks are sensing more attitude than any of us > speakers really intend to be projecting. Or we as speakers are > projecting more attitude than we realize. Or a little of both. > > In any case, maybe we could have an Open Space today with any and all > database folks represented. As far as the three database speakers go, > Ed Leafe and I had dinner together last night with some other database > guys (it was me against 4 Foxpro gurus ) and David Binger would > have joined us as well if I had been able to invite him before he left > for the night. > > So I feel safe saying that we don't have any problems getting along. I > think it's just the nature of the beast - object databases are quite > different from relational databases and there is often a great deal of > misunderstanding in both camps. I'd love to get together and chat if > anyone else would. :-) > > -- > Patrick K. O'Brien > Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com > Schevo http://www.schevo.org > Pypersyst http://www.pypersyst.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pycon2005-attendees/attachments/20050325/dda0df0c/attachment.htm From ed at leafe.com Fri Mar 25 14:53:31 2005 From: ed at leafe.com (Ed Leafe) Date: Fri Mar 25 14:53:22 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] The Database Divide Message-ID: <424417DB.6030700@leafe.com> On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 05:20:44 +0000, john.m.camara@comcast.net wrote: > The questions and comments that were made in today's database sessions > indicate that there are many developers who have a one track mind vision > when it comes to database types. There are those who swear by relational > and then there are those who swear by object oriented ones. > > So who is right? Well that all depends on the application. I have to confess that I am not overly driven by the concern of what would be the best theoretical solution. My clients *have* their data already, and I've yet to run into a situation where it *wasn't* in a relational database. Could another approach have served them better? Perhaps, but that's pretty much irrelevant to them now. My reason for creating Dabo was to have an open-source, Python -based solution to serve this existing market. I welcome object databases, and can see tremendous potential for them, having worked with ZODB for many years now. But I don't think that this is an either-or situation. We benefit by having strong tools for both approaches. -- ___/ / __/ / ____/ Ed Leafe http://leafe.com/ http://dabodev.com/ From farcepest at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 14:57:30 2005 From: farcepest at gmail.com (Andy Dustman) Date: Fri Mar 25 14:57:33 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] The Database Divide In-Reply-To: <032520050520.819.42439FAB000740590000033322070032010E9D0E030E0CD203D202080106@comcast.net> References: <032520050520.819.42439FAB000740590000033322070032010E9D0E030E0CD203D202080106@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9826f380050325055742afcb9b@mail.gmail.com> The classic UNIX filesystem model has a table of inodes, with allocated inodes corresponding to files. The inode table space is flat: There is no notion of hierarchy. Indeed, there is no concept of file names. Directories, which are a special type of file, are essentially lists of tuples of (filename, inode). This provides both file names and hierarchy, since directories may point to other directories. The inode number is best thought of as a pointer. You can have multiple names pointing to the same inode. The name of a file depends on where you are looking at it in the hierarchy. Python objects are not so different. Objects which sit in an address space, and may point at multiple other objects. Likewise, no object has a name, except what is imposed by some hierarchy. Some objects do have a __name__ attribute, but from the object's perspective, this is just a pointer to some other object called __name__. One difference between Python objects and RDB tables is that Python objects can (but not always) contain arbitrary attributes, which can be of arbitrary types, but tables have a fixed number of columns of fixed types. (IIRC, PostgreSQL may allow you to specify a column type which can contain any column type.) Python's ability to assign attributes arbitrarily is a great feature. OTOH, the rigid column schema of relational databases is also a great feature, if your goal is to do summations and counts and such, which is common in business applications. Relational databases are not a great place to store arbitrary Python objects, although it's possible to do this by stuffing pickles in a BLOB; it's just not generally a good idea. However, if you have a fairly fixed schema, then you can think of each table as being an address space for a single object class. Then references to other object classes are still just pointers, but into other address spaces. This make more sense if you think of the primary key of being a serial number type (or an auto_increment in MySQL) or row number, and then refering to objects in other tables by their primary key/row number. The biggest mismatch is still that your Python objects may point to instance of arbitrary classes. In a relational database, this is like having a column with a foreign key reference, except that it might refer to a key in an arbitrary table for each row, which you just can't do. Time for the keynote. -- Computer interfaces should never be made of meat. Using GMail? Setting Reply-to address to <> disables this annoying feature. You are in a maze of twisty little passages all alike. To go north, press 2. To go west, press 4. To go east, press 6. To go south, press 8. If you need assistance, press 0 and a little dwarf will assist you. From pobrien at orbtech.com Fri Mar 25 16:44:16 2005 From: pobrien at orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien) Date: Fri Mar 25 16:44:23 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] The Database Divide In-Reply-To: <9826f380050325055742afcb9b@mail.gmail.com> References: <032520050520.819.42439FAB000740590000033322070032010E9D0E030E0CD203D202080106@comcast.net> <9826f380050325055742afcb9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <424431D0.2010000@orbtech.com> Andy Dustman wrote: [snip] > > The biggest mismatch is still that your Python objects may point to > instance of arbitrary classes. In a relational database, this is like > having a column with a foreign key reference, except that it might > refer to a key in an arbitrary table for each row, which you just > can't do. Unless you are using Schevo, which allows you to set constraints on references that limit them to instances of one particular class[1], rather than any arbitrary class. [1] Actually, Schevo lets you constrain to one class, or a list of classes, which is a unique advantage that it has over relational foreign keys. (And, yes, those can still be exported to SQL by creating one SQL field for each class in the list. So if your reference field in Schevo allowed a reference to an instance from one of three different Entity classes, the exported SQL table would contain 3 foreign key fields instead of one.) -- Patrick K. O'Brien Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com Schevo http://www.schevo.org Pypersyst http://www.pypersyst.org From amk at amk.ca Fri Mar 25 16:43:31 2005 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Fri Mar 25 16:44:25 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Reminder: feedback forms In-Reply-To: <20050325131750.GA27914@rogue.amk.ca> References: <20050325131750.GA27914@rogue.amk.ca> Message-ID: <20050325154331.GC28685@rogue.amk.ca> On Fri, Mar 25, 2005 at 08:17:50AM -0500, A.M. Kuchling wrote: > Please remember to pick up a feedback form at the registration desk, > complete it, and return it. You can either put the form in the > box marked 'completed feedback forms', or hand the form to the > registration desk staff. If you've already left PyCon, you can download a copy of the form at http://www.amk.ca/files/pycon/feedback.pdf, and then print it out and mail it to the address below. Alternatively you can look at the PDF and then send me e-mail answering the questions. (You won't be anonymous if you use e-mail, of course.) --amk Mailing address for feedback forms: Andrew Kuchling 3061 Sugar Lane Vienna, VA 22181 From pobrien at orbtech.com Fri Mar 25 16:46:43 2005 From: pobrien at orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien) Date: Fri Mar 25 16:46:51 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] The Database Divide In-Reply-To: <032520051347.27680.4244165A000AAC3C00006C2022070029530E9D0E030E0CD203D202080106@comcast.net> References: <032520051347.27680.4244165A000AAC3C00006C2022070029530E9D0E030E0CD203D202080106@comcast.net> Message-ID: <42443263.8080701@orbtech.com> john.m.camara@comcast.net wrote: > +1 for an open session > how about 3pm? Since the conference closes at 3pm, I'm not sure how well that would work. But if they would let us use a room, I could do it at 3pm. -- Patrick K. O'Brien Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com Schevo http://www.schevo.org Pypersyst http://www.pypersyst.org From amk at amk.ca Fri Mar 25 16:50:22 2005 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Fri Mar 25 16:51:17 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] The Database Divide In-Reply-To: <42443263.8080701@orbtech.com> References: <032520051347.27680.4244165A000AAC3C00006C2022070029530E9D0E030E0CD203D202080106@comcast.net> <42443263.8080701@orbtech.com> Message-ID: <20050325155022.GA28851@rogue.amk.ca> On Fri, Mar 25, 2005 at 10:46:43AM -0500, Patrick K. O'Brien wrote: > Since the conference closes at 3pm, I'm not sure how well that would > work. But if they would let us use a room, I could do it at 3pm. I believe we still have the open space rooms for a while after 3PM, so you could probably grab half of a room. --amk From p at ulmcnett.com Fri Mar 25 16:56:56 2005 From: p at ulmcnett.com (Paul McNett) Date: Fri Mar 25 16:57:00 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] The Database Divide In-Reply-To: <42443263.8080701@orbtech.com> References: <032520051347.27680.4244165A000AAC3C00006C2022070029530E9D0E030E0CD203D202080106@comcast.net> <42443263.8080701@orbtech.com> Message-ID: <424434C8.1020704@ulmcnett.com> Patrick K. O'Brien wrote: > > john.m.camara@comcast.net wrote: > >> +1 for an open session >>how about 3pm? > > > Since the conference closes at 3pm, I'm not sure how well that would > work. But if they would let us use a room, I could do it at 3pm. > I'll be there in spirit! Like Ed, I can see some of the benefits of going to an object database, but at the same time being from a relational database background I feel that the relational model has long solved all real-world database problems. There is a place for being relatively rigid (the backend database) and there is a place for being relatively flexible (the business layer and the ui layout). Dialog is good. Let's talk about the pros/cons of both models, so that at least each side understands one another. -- pkm ~ http://paulmcnett.com From amk at amk.ca Fri Mar 25 21:27:15 2005 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Fri Mar 25 21:28:12 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Found: Apple power cable Message-ID: <20050325202715.GA30256@rogue.amk.ca> The plug and cord for an Apple power cable was found in room 307, where the lightning talks were given. It's now in the cloakroom by the registration desk. --amk From pobrien at orbtech.com Sat Mar 26 15:52:07 2005 From: pobrien at orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien) Date: Sat Mar 26 15:52:18 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] The Database Divide In-Reply-To: <20050325155022.GA28851@rogue.amk.ca> References: <032520051347.27680.4244165A000AAC3C00006C2022070029530E9D0E030E0CD203D202080106@comcast.net> <42443263.8080701@orbtech.com> <20050325155022.GA28851@rogue.amk.ca> Message-ID: <42457717.6080103@orbtech.com> A.M. Kuchling wrote: > On Fri, Mar 25, 2005 at 10:46:43AM -0500, Patrick K. O'Brien wrote: > >>Since the conference closes at 3pm, I'm not sure how well that would >>work. But if they would let us use a room, I could do it at 3pm. > > > I believe we still have the open space rooms for a while after 3PM, so > you could probably grab half of a room. Since this didn't really work out I thought I'd just follow up with a link to a companion paper on Schevo that covers more than I was able to in my presentation and includes lots of pretty screen shots and more detailed explanations of Schevo concepts: http://schevo.org/documentation/reference/current/ Just look for the PyCon 2005 link. -- Patrick K. O'Brien Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com Schevo http://www.schevo.org Pypersyst http://www.pypersyst.org From samtani at ISI.EDU Sat Mar 26 17:16:45 2005 From: samtani at ISI.EDU (samtani@ISI.EDU) Date: Sat Mar 26 17:17:45 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] MissionEngine talk Message-ID: <1111853805.42458aed78631@webmail.isi.edu> First off, a big thanks to Steve, Brian (Warner) and all the PyCon attendess. You guys made my first conference presentation easy!! Also, people had questions during the talk about cross-communication between Python and the Unreal Game Engine, and inquired where the modules would be available. The links are below (heckle me if the Python client doesn't come online by next week): Main project page: http://www.planetunreal.com/gamebots/ SourceForge page: http://sourceforge.net/projects/gamebots Thanks, Prasan From python at venix.com Sat Mar 26 19:17:36 2005 From: python at venix.com (Lloyd Kvam) Date: Sat Mar 26 19:17:40 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Pycon2005 and database divide (ODB vs relational DB) Message-ID: <1111861055.4268.57.camel@laptop.venix.com> I was not present at the Pycon presentation that triggered some heated discussion about the relative merits of an Object Data Base vs a Relational Data Base, but I did see some followup discussions and there were some emails. http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pycon2005-attendees/2005-March/000054.html http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pycon2005-attendees/2005-March/000061.html Personally, I use relational databases because of the set theory that underpins them and because that's what I know (old dogs do old tricks). The discussions that I've seen on this list generally deal with the nuts and bolts of using relational databases. I've viewed Zope's ability to take a bundle of html and programming logic and save it as a persistent URL in ZODB as a cool trick, but not terribly relevant to the way I write applications. (Yes, I know that is selling Zope short, but I think it is still true enough.) I have persistent program logic (.py files) and persistent data in SQL databases plus configuration files and presentation templates that help tie the pieces together. Has the world changed? Is it now easy to apply set theory predicates (or some alternative theory) to ODB data? Should "normal" applications be managing "objects" rather than "data"? I'm posting this to db-sig since that seems like the best forum for a discussion. -- Lloyd Kvam Venix Corp From pobrien at orbtech.com Sat Mar 26 23:27:44 2005 From: pobrien at orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien) Date: Sat Mar 26 23:28:02 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Pycon2005 and database divide (ODB vs relational DB) In-Reply-To: <1111861055.4268.57.camel@laptop.venix.com> References: <1111861055.4268.57.camel@laptop.venix.com> Message-ID: <4245E1E0.5060403@orbtech.com> Lloyd Kvam wrote: [snip] > > Has the world changed? Is it now easy to apply set theory predicates > (or some alternative theory) to ODB data? Should "normal" applications > be managing "objects" rather than "data"? Yes. Start here --> http://orbtech.com/blog/schevo/pycon2005 -- Patrick K. O'Brien Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com Schevo http://www.schevo.org Pypersyst http://www.pypersyst.org From golux at comcast.net Sun Mar 27 00:12:57 2005 From: golux at comcast.net (Stephen Waterbury) Date: Sun Mar 27 00:13:09 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Re: The Database Divide (another country heard from :) In-Reply-To: <42457717.6080103@orbtech.com> References: <032520051347.27680.4244165A000AAC3C00006C2022070029530E9D0E030E0CD203D202080106@comcast.net> <42443263.8080701@orbtech.com> <20050325155022.GA28851@rogue.amk.ca> <42457717.6080103@orbtech.com> Message-ID: <4245EC79.5020205@comcast.net> Patrick K. O'Brien wrote: > ... I thought I'd just follow up with a > link to a companion paper on Schevo that covers more than I was able to > in my presentation and includes lots of pretty screen shots and more > detailed explanations of Schevo concepts: > > http://schevo.org/documentation/reference/current/ Thanks very much for this, Patrick! I was at PyCon but unfortunately missed your talk and (maybe not so unfortunately ;) all the relational vs. odb hooha, except for the thread on pycon2005-attendees, which has been quite interesting. Schevo (is that pronounced "skeevo", with a hard "ch", as in "schema"?) is interesting, but for me the "REST API for Schevo" is even more interesting! I have been busy implementing an O-R API on top of PostgreSQL, and it's similar to Schevo's. Like your current Schevo work, I'm using Twisted's web module -- but for xml-rpc. I plan to implement PB and/or "JUCE" (sp?) service(s) over the same underlying logical interface layer RSN. I use the Twisted adbapi interface to PostgreSQL, but nothing else from twisted.enterprise. I'm going to see if I can implement a Schevo-REST interface for my repository app. I may even be able to reuse some of your Python code -- I use ElementTree for all my XML work. (Thanks, Fredrik! ... for the thousandth time. :) IMO Schevo-REST is a good candidate for a standard REST "Repository API". (I use "repository" to mean a generalized persistence service, which could have any kind of backend.) Such a standard could enable user interface reuse, but also inter-repository communications and some forms of federation among possibly heterogeneous repositories. The latter in particular would likely be of interest to your "real-world" Navy customers, among others. DoD customers typically have zillions of legacy databases (well, 2 or 3 at least!) that they need to glue together in various ways and this could provide an elegant wrapping/gluing technique. The same applies for any large manufacturing outfit -- a.k.a. "OEMs". NASA included. ;) In preface to the next paragraph, I'll emphasize that I am *not* a big semantic web (SW) nor UML maven. I'm interested in using SW techniques within controlled domains for integration and interoperability and (down the road) inferencing and "AI"-type capabilities. As to UML, some of my customers want to use UML tools and extend them in some ... uhhh ... interesting ways. All through your docs of Schevo are concepts of domain classes, relationships, and such. These well-established concepts occur in several industry standards. I am developing interfaces to import/export OWL/RDF, UML/XMI, and STEP (ISO 10303) for my app, mainly to enable interoperability with other tools and apps that implement them. One of my points in bringing that up is that Schevo's REST API document resonates with some high-level SW concepts and RDF/OWL. I take a naive and minimalist approach to such standards (partly because I am trying to deal with so many, so I can't afford to get lost in the details/warts), and IMO the documentation of a standard REST repository API could actually benefit by referring to some SW concepts. A simple mapping of some Schevo REST API elements to OWL/SW/XSD: domain ........... 'owl:ontology' (~ schema, in db parlance) domain name ...... ~ xsd:ns (or prefix, like 'owl', above) collection ....... a local population of instances of a Class supplier ......... a Class instance action/execute ... (no concept in SW ... thank goodness! but OWL-S [services] is coming ... urg ;) For one thing, I like the idea of giving a domain ontology a URI and a prefix. A globally unique identifier enables intelligent publishing (the URI doesn't have to be a URL, but it's nice if it is ;), discovery, importing, etc. As Tim Peters famously observed: "Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those!" I'm working on an OWL import/export interface for my app's "meta-repository", as one way of publishing its ontology, importing/exporting and integrating with related ontologies, etc. I'll try to make it as independent of the rest of my app as possible, in case anyone is interested in using it. A Python ontology module might also be useful. I have some of the classes, but they are a bit too tightly coupled to my app right now -- I need to de-couple them more anyway, so if anyone thinks it would be useful, I could release it. I'm using RDFLib for the import/export (an exception to my use of ElementTree for XML -- the RDF/XML spec makes me nauseous ;). Interesting that your example uses the "oid" attribute for "suppliers" in exactly the same way that STEP (ISO 10303) identifies (and cross-references) instances within a STEP file (ISO 10303-21): integers -- a simple, locally unique identifier. BTW, as an indication of just how similar our app domains are, the "organization" class in my app's core ontology mirrors the structure of "Commercial And Government Entity" (CAGE), which is a concept I'd bet money you use in your Navy logistics-related app. ;) If you're interested, I'll send you the ontology, which I'll be releasing publicly Real Soon Now, anyway. Sorry it got so long! Let me know if any of this sounds interesting. Cheers, Steve From exarkun at divmod.com Sun Mar 27 00:23:01 2005 From: exarkun at divmod.com (Jp Calderone) Date: Sun Mar 27 00:23:13 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Re: The Database Divide (another country heard from :) In-Reply-To: <4245EC79.5020205@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20050326232301.13806.336325903.divmod.quotient.25989@ohm> On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:12:57 -0500, Stephen Waterbury wrote: > [snip] > > I have been busy implementing an O-R API on top of PostgreSQL, > and it's similar to Schevo's. Like your current Schevo work, > I'm using Twisted's web module -- but for xml-rpc. I plan to > implement PB and/or "JUCE" (sp?) service(s) over the same > underlying logical interface layer RSN. I use the Twisted > adbapi interface to PostgreSQL, but nothing else from > twisted.enterprise. (JU)ice (I)s (C)oncurrent (E)vents. JUICE :) Jp From pobrien at orbtech.com Sun Mar 27 00:36:43 2005 From: pobrien at orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien) Date: Sun Mar 27 00:36:55 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Re: The Database Divide (another country heard from :) In-Reply-To: <4245EC79.5020205@comcast.net> References: <032520051347.27680.4244165A000AAC3C00006C2022070029530E9D0E030E0CD203D202080106@comcast.net> <42443263.8080701@orbtech.com> <20050325155022.GA28851@rogue.amk.ca> <42457717.6080103@orbtech.com> <4245EC79.5020205@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4245F20B.5040608@orbtech.com> Stephen Waterbury wrote: > Patrick K. O'Brien wrote: > >> ... I thought I'd just follow up with a >> link to a companion paper on Schevo that covers more than I was able to >> in my presentation and includes lots of pretty screen shots and more >> detailed explanations of Schevo concepts: >> >> http://schevo.org/documentation/reference/current/ > > Thanks very much for this, Patrick! I was at PyCon but unfortunately > missed your talk and (maybe not so unfortunately ;) all the relational > vs. odb hooha, except for the thread on pycon2005-attendees, which > has been quite interesting. You're quite welcome. Sorry I didn't get a chance to meet you. > Schevo (is that pronounced "skeevo", with a hard "ch", as in > "schema"?) is interesting, but for me the "REST API for Schevo" > is even more interesting! Yes, Schevo is pronounced "skeevo" and rhymes with Tivo. :-) Glad you like the REST API. Matthew Scott gets credit for that. To be honest, I'm really not familiar with any of the semantic web efforts. I just try to do things that make sense to me and work very hard to make things simple. It is nice to see that the concepts I've spent the past few years working on with Schevo and it predecessors are starting to converge with lots of other efforts. I'm definitely interested in keeping in touch and learning more about your work. -- Patrick K. O'Brien Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com Schevo http://www.schevo.org Pypersyst http://www.pypersyst.org From pobrien at orbtech.com Sun Mar 27 00:41:57 2005 From: pobrien at orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien) Date: Sun Mar 27 00:42:10 2005 Subject: [DB-SIG] Re: [Pycon2005-attendees] Pycon2005 and database divide (ODB vs relational DB) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4245F345.4090804@orbtech.com> Peter Mott wrote: > I always understood that the weakness of Object Databases was that they > provided no general ad hoc query language like SQL (or QUEL) though there > was no a priori reason why they couldn't. The way relational databases were > grounded in 1st order predicate logic (FOPC) seemed to give them an > advantage which Object Databases despite announcements and languages to the > contrary never quite manageed to overcome. I do know that the Relational > Model is based on the logic of Frege (1879), the predicate logic, while the > object model harks back to the IS_A hierarchies underpinning the logic of > Aristotle (300 BC). I checked out the orbtech URL but found nothing about > languages, logic or even taxonomies. So give us more evidence that the world > has changed! It has been long announced but has not happened. Frege rules. The proof is in the pudding. There is much misinformation in the world and especially in the academic publications on this topic. I don't have the time or interest in correcting that. I want to build tools that work. Other people can follow up with the theory about why they work. I've already read too many theoretical papers that said what I've already done with Schevo couldn't be done. Never piss off an Irishman by telling him something can't be done. He might just go and do it anyway. ;-) -- Patrick K. O'Brien Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com Schevo http://www.schevo.org Pypersyst http://www.pypersyst.org From pobrien at orbtech.com Sun Mar 27 00:44:51 2005 From: pobrien at orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien) Date: Sun Mar 27 00:45:01 2005 Subject: [DB-SIG] Re: [Pycon2005-attendees] Pycon2005 and database divide (ODB vs relational DB) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4245F3F3.4000209@orbtech.com> Peter Mott wrote: > I always understood that the weakness of Object Databases was that they > provided no general ad hoc query language like SQL (or QUEL) though there > was no a priori reason why they couldn't. The way relational databases were > grounded in 1st order predicate logic (FOPC) seemed to give them an > advantage which Object Databases despite announcements and languages to the > contrary never quite manageed to overcome. I do know that the Relational > Model is based on the logic of Frege (1879), the predicate logic, while the > object model harks back to the IS_A hierarchies underpinning the logic of > Aristotle (300 BC). I checked out the orbtech URL but found nothing about > languages, logic or even taxonomies. So give us more evidence that the world > has changed! It has been long announced but has not happened. Frege rules. P.S. Aristotle is overrated. I've always been more of a General Semantics (Korzybski) kind of guy myself. But then, philosophy is also overrated. So I've become more of a "do your own thing" kind of guy. -- Patrick K. O'Brien Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com Schevo http://www.schevo.org Pypersyst http://www.pypersyst.org From ed at leafe.com Sun Mar 27 04:46:33 2005 From: ed at leafe.com (Ed Leafe) Date: Sun Mar 27 04:46:36 2005 Subject: [DB-SIG] Re: [Pycon2005-attendees] Pycon2005 and database divide (ODB vs relational DB) In-Reply-To: <4245F345.4090804@orbtech.com> References: <4245F345.4090804@orbtech.com> Message-ID: On Mar 26, 2005, at 6:41 PM, Patrick K. O'Brien wrote: > Never piss off an Irishman by telling him something can't be done. He > might just go and do it anyway. ;-) Bah! You'll never be able to send me a million dollars! ;-) ___/ / __/ / ____/ Ed Leafe http://leafe.com/ http://dabodev.com/ From john.m.camara at comcast.net Sun Mar 27 05:25:30 2005 From: john.m.camara at comcast.net (john.m.camara@comcast.net) Date: Sun Mar 27 05:25:35 2005 Subject: [DB-SIG] Re: [Pycon2005-attendees] Pycon2005 and database divide (ODB vs relational DB) Message-ID: <032720050325.6010.424627AA0007C3240000177A22058860140E9D0E030E0CD203D202080106@comcast.net> Do all databases need ad hoc query languages? Oh, I can already feel the heat is on its way before I even get the words typed out. IMHO, saying or believing a database needs an ad hoc query language is equivalent to saying or believing a language needs static types. All Relational Databases lovers should now take a couple of slooooow deep breaths and cool down. There are quite a few object oriented applications that require only querying over a relatively few fields and thus does not need the flexibility that SQL provides. If such an application uses a Relational Database it will come with some costs. - Query are slower - SQL Queries require complex parsing before data is retrieved - Results need to be transformed to objects (takes more code and processor time) - Refactoring the Application is harder and more error prone as changes need to be done in many places (object model, relational mapping, database, etc). Just like the good old procedural days when you had to remember to make changes scattered through out the code base. - Storage requirements may be higher if the tables become sparsely populated. - If tables are sparsely populated the code for the application will likely have many if/else conditions. - Good object oriented design is likely to be compromised to make working with a relational database easier. - Applications with high volumes of data may have to resort to back dooring the data into the database. If you every find yourself in this situation you definitely choose the wrong type of database. As I stated in previous posts, I'm not against Relational Databases. There is no one type of database that is a silver bullet. They all have their strengths and weaknesses and for the for-seeable future I will continue using the three types. In general I use Relational when I need an ad hoc query language, Embedded when I need to save complex state information, and object orient for the remaining. In some applications I may use 2 or even all 3 types. In some applications where it may be ideal to use 2 or more types I some times make a compromise and use one type if one particular type meets the majority of the application needs well. I also make the compromise for applications that have very simple database needs. John > Peter Mott wrote: > > I always understood that the weakness of Object Databases was that they > > provided no general ad hoc query language like SQL (or QUEL) though there > > was no a priori reason why they couldn't. The way relational databases were > > grounded in 1st order predicate logic (FOPC) seemed to give them an > > advantage which Object Databases despite announcements and languages to the > > contrary never quite manageed to overcome. I do know that the Relational > > Model is based on the logic of Frege (1879), the predicate logic, while the > > object model harks back to the IS_A hierarchies underpinning the logic of > > Aristotle (300 BC). I checked out the orbtech URL but found nothing about > > languages, logic or even taxonomies. So give us more evidence that the world > > has changed! It has been long announced but has not happened. Frege rules. > > The proof is in the pudding. There is much misinformation in the world > and especially in the academic publications on this topic. I don't have > the time or interest in correcting that. I want to build tools that > work. Other people can follow up with the theory about why they work. > I've already read too many theoretical papers that said what I've > already done with Schevo couldn't be done. Never piss off an Irishman > by telling him something can't be done. He might just go and do it > anyway. ;-) > > -- > Patrick K. O'Brien > Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com > Schevo http://www.schevo.org > Pypersyst http://www.pypersyst.org > > _______________________________________________ > Pycon2005-attendees mailing list > Pycon2005-attendees@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon2005-attendees From bob at redivi.com Sun Mar 27 06:04:52 2005 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Sun Mar 27 06:05:03 2005 Subject: [DB-SIG] Re: [Pycon2005-attendees] Pycon2005 and database divide (ODB vs relational DB) In-Reply-To: <032720050325.6010.424627AA0007C3240000177A22058860140E9D0E030E0CD203D202080106@comcast.net> References: <032720050325.6010.424627AA0007C3240000177A22058860140E9D0E030E0CD203D202080106@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1C600F60-24D0-4615-ABF0-7B7E4ACB6426@redivi.com> On Mar 26, 2005, at 10:25 PM, john.m.camara@comcast.net wrote: > Do all databases need ad hoc query languages? > > Oh, I can already feel the heat is on its way before I even get the > words typed out. > > IMHO, saying or believing a database needs an ad hoc query language > is equivalent to saying or believing a language needs static types. > > All Relational Databases lovers should now take a couple of > slooooow deep breaths and cool down. > > There are quite a few object oriented applications that require > only querying over a relatively few fields and thus does not need > the flexibility that SQL provides. If such an application uses a > Relational Database it will come with some costs. > > - Query are slower - SQL Queries require complex parsing before > data is retrieved > - Results need to be transformed to objects (takes more code and > processor time) > - Refactoring the Application is harder and more error prone as > changes need to be done in many places (object model, relational > mapping, database, etc). Just like the good old procedural days > when you had to remember to make changes scattered through out the > code base. > - Storage requirements may be higher if the tables become sparsely > populated. > - If tables are sparsely populated the code for the application > will likely have many if/else conditions. > - Good object oriented design is likely to be compromised to make > working with a relational database easier. > - Applications with high volumes of data may have to resort to back > dooring the data into the database. If you every find yourself in > this situation you definitely choose the wrong type of database. > > As I stated in previous posts, I'm not against Relational > Databases. There is no one type of database that is a silver > bullet. They all have their strengths and weaknesses and for the > for-seeable future I will continue using the three types. In > general I use Relational when I need an ad hoc query language, > Embedded when I need to save complex state information, and object > orient for the remaining. In some applications I may use 2 or even > all 3 types. In some applications where it may be ideal to use 2 > or more types I some times make a compromise and use one type if > one particular type meets the majority of the application needs > well. I also make the compromise for applications that have very > simple database needs. MonetDB is worth looking at if you're interested in a hybrid model that has the relational database API when you want it, and something lower level and more efficient when you don't. It also supports both the embedded and client/server model, and has some pretty impressive technology behind the scenes. I haven't done more than play around with it, so I can't personally vouch for it in a production environment, but I sure want to at some point. (They also support Python out of the box) -bob From pobrien at orbtech.com Sun Mar 27 15:53:12 2005 From: pobrien at orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien) Date: Sun Mar 27 15:53:25 2005 Subject: [DB-SIG] Re: [Pycon2005-attendees] Pycon2005 and database divide (ODB vs relational DB) In-Reply-To: References: <4245F345.4090804@orbtech.com> Message-ID: <4246BAC8.308@orbtech.com> Ed Leafe wrote: > On Mar 26, 2005, at 6:41 PM, Patrick K. O'Brien wrote: > >> Never piss off an Irishman by telling him something can't be done. He >> might just go and do it anyway. ;-) > > > Bah! You'll never be able to send me a million dollars! Grrr. Don't... make... me... angry!!! ;-) -- Patrick K. O'Brien Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com Schevo http://www.schevo.org Pypersyst http://www.pypersyst.org From pobrien at orbtech.com Sun Mar 27 16:00:48 2005 From: pobrien at orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien) Date: Sun Mar 27 16:01:01 2005 Subject: [DB-SIG] Re: [Pycon2005-attendees] Pycon2005 and database divide (ODB vs relational DB) In-Reply-To: <1C600F60-24D0-4615-ABF0-7B7E4ACB6426@redivi.com> References: <032720050325.6010.424627AA0007C3240000177A22058860140E9D0E030E0CD203D202080106@comcast.net> <1C600F60-24D0-4615-ABF0-7B7E4ACB6426@redivi.com> Message-ID: <4246BC90.4080209@orbtech.com> Bob Ippolito wrote: > > MonetDB is worth looking at if you're > interested in a hybrid model that has the relational database API when > you want it, and something lower level and more efficient when you > don't. It also supports both the embedded and client/server model, and > has some pretty impressive technology behind the scenes. > > I haven't done more than play around with it, so I can't personally > vouch for it in a production environment, but I sure want to at some > point. > > (They also support Python out of the box) Bob, could you say a little more about what you like about MonetDB and what kind of support they have for Python? If you could compare it to any other DBMS or ODBMS that would be great too. I'm just curious to hear more from someone who has actually tried it. Thanks. -- Patrick K. O'Brien Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com Schevo http://www.schevo.org Pypersyst http://www.pypersyst.org From pobrien at orbtech.com Sun Mar 27 16:24:48 2005 From: pobrien at orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien) Date: Sun Mar 27 16:25:02 2005 Subject: [DB-SIG] Re: [Pycon2005-attendees] Pycon2005 and database divide (ODB vs relational DB) In-Reply-To: <4246723F.7000506@colorstudy.com> References: <032720050325.6010.424627AA0007C3240000177A22058860140E9D0E030E0CD203D202080106@comcast.net> <4246723F.7000506@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <4246C230.5050906@orbtech.com> Ian Bicking wrote: > john.m.camara@comcast.net wrote: > >> Do all databases need ad hoc query languages? > > > A single language, no, but I do think they all need good support for ad > hoc queries. If I have to change my persistent data model to > efficiently and consistently query the objects (or tuples) in a new way, > then that model is too fragile. One of the real conceptual challenges here is that queries in the relational model are quite different from queries of objects. In relational, you have "dumb" data that you can pick apart and recombine to form new sets of "dumb" data. So a flexible language like SQL makes sense. With objects, I find it awkward to think about queries this way. Schevo does have built-in methods that make it easy to find subsets of objects, and those methods have some simple optimizations they apply based on behind-the-scenes indexes that Schevo maintains. And Schevo automatically maintains bi-directional relationships between all parent-child relationships and exposes access to this information in a very simple and consistent API. The combination of these two features along with Python list comprehensions turns out to be extremely powerful and flexible and works great for application code. If I had to support completely ad-hoc end-user querying then I would have someone write an ODBC driver so that a Schevo database looked like a relational database to any ODBC client tool, like Access or Crystal Reports. Creating this ODBC driver is beyond my skill level as it will involve a lot of nasty C code, but conceptually I'm confident it could be done, since we can already easily export SQL from any Schevo database. -- Patrick K. O'Brien Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com Schevo http://www.schevo.org Pypersyst http://www.pypersyst.org From bob at redivi.com Sun Mar 27 20:18:01 2005 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Sun Mar 27 20:18:09 2005 Subject: [DB-SIG] Re: [Pycon2005-attendees] Pycon2005 and database divide (ODB vs relational DB) In-Reply-To: <4246BC90.4080209@orbtech.com> References: <032720050325.6010.424627AA0007C3240000177A22058860140E9D0E030E0CD203D202080106@comcast.net> <1C600F60-24D0-4615-ABF0-7B7E4ACB6426@redivi.com> <4246BC90.4080209@orbtech.com> Message-ID: On Mar 27, 2005, at 9:00 AM, Patrick K. O'Brien wrote: > Bob Ippolito wrote: >> >> MonetDB is worth looking at if you're >> interested in a hybrid model that has the relational database API >> when >> you want it, and something lower level and more efficient when you >> don't. It also supports both the embedded and client/server model, >> and >> has some pretty impressive technology behind the scenes. >> >> I haven't done more than play around with it, so I can't personally >> vouch for it in a production environment, but I sure want to at some >> point. >> >> (They also support Python out of the box) > > Bob, could you say a little more about what you like about MonetDB and > what kind of support they have for Python? If you could compare it to > any other DBMS or ODBMS that would be great too. I'm just curious to > hear more from someone who has actually tried it. Thanks. I don't feel that I've used it enough yet to be able to give a really intelligent comparison at this time, but they do have a lot of information on their site, and I suggest reading that for now. -bob From pobrien at orbtech.com Sun Mar 27 23:01:30 2005 From: pobrien at orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien) Date: Sun Mar 27 23:19:15 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] EuroPython 2005 In-Reply-To: <4243811C.7070704@clocksoft.com> References: <4243811C.7070704@clocksoft.com> Message-ID: <42471F2A.70809@orbtech.com> John Pinner wrote: > > This is just to tell you all about another fine Python community > conference : EuroPython which takes place in Sweden at G?teborg from > 27th to 29th June. Is anyone from the US planning to attend? I looked at flights and it looked to be a fairly expensive ($1500) and long (14 hours) trip. So I was wondering in anyone from the states had travel advice. If I went I'd be traveling from St. Louis, MO. -- Patrick K. O'Brien Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com Schevo http://www.schevo.org Pypersyst http://www.pypersyst.org From mso at oz.net Mon Mar 28 08:54:14 2005 From: mso at oz.net (Mike Orr) Date: Mon Mar 28 08:50:37 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] EuroPython 2005 In-Reply-To: <42471F2A.70809@orbtech.com> References: <4243811C.7070704@clocksoft.com> <42471F2A.70809@orbtech.com> Message-ID: <4247AA16.1000200@oz.net> Patrick K. O'Brien wrote: >John Pinner wrote: > > >>This is just to tell you all about another fine Python community >>conference : EuroPython which takes place in Sweden at G?teborg from >>27th to 29th June. >> >> > >Is anyone from the US planning to attend? I looked at flights and it >looked to be a fairly expensive ($1500) and long (14 hours) trip. So I >was wondering in anyone from the states had travel advice. If I went >I'd be traveling from St. Louis, MO. > > I'm half thinking about it but my travel plans for the year are already pretty maxed out. From ldlandis at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 18:51:55 2005 From: ldlandis at gmail.com (LD "Gus" Landis) Date: Mon Mar 28 18:52:00 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Re: Lost "Cookbook" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, I managed to lose track of the "Cookbook" I bought at PyCon. It has "Landis" across the bottom pages and has several signatures. I'll pay for shipping, etc: LD "Gus" Landis 1823 Como Ave SE Minneapolis, MN 55414 Cheers, --ldl -- LD Landis - N0YRQ - from the St Paul side of Minneapolis From jjinux at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 20:58:38 2005 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Mon Mar 28 20:58:40 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] IronPort is hiring Message-ID: Hey guys, Please excuse this advertisement. IronPort is a huge user of Python. We have over a million lines of Python spread among our products. It is our primary language. If you are interested in working for IronPort in San Bruno, California, please email me. We're also interested in self-motivated, star programmers who wish to work remotely as either full-time programmers or via contract. Happy Hacking! -jj (925) 209-6439 -- I have decided to switch to Gmail, but messages to my Yahoo account will still get through. From abrown at CSREES.USDA.GOV Mon Mar 28 21:35:51 2005 From: abrown at CSREES.USDA.GOV (Brown, Alysia) Date: Mon Mar 28 21:36:33 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Freelance/Contract Python Opportunity Message-ID: We are looking to hire a freelance/contract python programmer for somewhere between 10 - 20 hours per week from now till the end of the year. We are located in Washington, DC but would be willing to work with you on a telecommuting basis if you are not in the area. Please email abrown@csrees.usda.gov if you are interested. Thanks! Alysia Brown -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pycon2005-attendees/attachments/20050328/9a99d083/attachment.html From jim at zope.com Mon Mar 28 21:46:15 2005 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Mon Mar 28 21:46:20 2005 Subject: No ads please. (Re: [Pycon2005-attendees] IronPort is hiring) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42485F07.2000100@zope.com> Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > Please excuse this advertisement. Sorry, but this isn't really an appropriate use of this list. This list of for information specific to PyCon. Good luck with your hiring! Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From farcepest at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 21:28:03 2005 From: farcepest at gmail.com (Andy Dustman) Date: Mon Mar 28 21:54:35 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] EuroPython 2005 In-Reply-To: <42471F2A.70809@orbtech.com> References: <4243811C.7070704@clocksoft.com> <42471F2A.70809@orbtech.com> Message-ID: <9826f380050328112810d31474@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 16:01:30 -0500, Patrick K. O'Brien wrote: > John Pinner wrote: > > > > This is just to tell you all about another fine Python community > > conference : EuroPython which takes place in Sweden at G?teborg from > > 27th to 29th June. > > Is anyone from the US planning to attend? I looked at flights and it > looked to be a fairly expensive ($1500) and long (14 hours) trip. So I > was wondering in anyone from the states had travel advice. If I went > I'd be traveling from St. Louis, MO. It's also about $1000 round-trip from Atlanta, vs. $180 to DC. However, $25/night for accomodations would offset this, depending on how long you stayed. I was in DC for 9 days... The EuroPython website doesn't have much on 2005 yet; it still has the call for papers deadline for the 2004 conference on the main page. -- Computer interfaces should never be made of meat. Using GMail? Setting Reply-to address to <> disables this annoying feature. You are in a maze of twisty little passages all alike. To go north, press 2. To go west, press 4. To go east, press 6. To go south, press 8. If you need assistance, press 0 and a little dwarf will assist you. From martin.blais at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 21:57:12 2005 From: martin.blais at gmail.com (Martin Blais) Date: Mon Mar 28 21:57:15 2005 Subject: No ads please. (Re: [Pycon2005-attendees] IronPort is hiring) In-Reply-To: <42485F07.2000100@zope.com> References: <42485F07.2000100@zope.com> Message-ID: <8393fff0503281157707fa285@mail.gmail.com> hi jim which alternative list would be a good place for python-related jobs? cheers, On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:46:15 -0500, Jim Fulton wrote: > Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > > > Please excuse this advertisement. > > Sorry, but this isn't really an appropriate use of this list. > > This list of for information specific to PyCon. > > Good luck with your hiring! > > Jim > > -- > Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! > CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org > Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org > _______________________________________________ > Pycon2005-attendees mailing list > Pycon2005-attendees@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon2005-attendees > From MWeiner at ag.com Mon Mar 28 22:01:00 2005 From: MWeiner at ag.com (MW Mike Weiner (5028)) Date: Mon Mar 28 22:01:04 2005 Subject: No ads please. (Re: [Pycon2005-attendees] IronPort is hiring) Message-ID: <4FD2C985D5E2A642AE25823DFD61C2B0054D5244@orca.agcom.amgreetings.com> Maybe start a new mail distribution list?!?!/ Just my thoughts Michael Weiner -----Original Message----- From: pycon2005-attendees-bounces@python.org [mailto:pycon2005-attendees-bounces@python.org] On Behalf Of Martin Blais Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 2:57 PM To: jim@zope.com Cc: mpeek@ironport.com; pycon2005-attendees@python.org Subject: Re: No ads please. (Re: [Pycon2005-attendees] IronPort is hiring) hi jim which alternative list would be a good place for python-related jobs? cheers, On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:46:15 -0500, Jim Fulton wrote: > Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > > > Please excuse this advertisement. > > Sorry, but this isn't really an appropriate use of this list. > > This list of for information specific to PyCon. > > Good luck with your hiring! > > Jim > > -- > Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! > CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org > Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org > _______________________________________________ > Pycon2005-attendees mailing list > Pycon2005-attendees@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon2005-attendees > _______________________________________________ Pycon2005-attendees mailing list Pycon2005-attendees@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon2005-attendees From tim.one at comcast.net Mon Mar 28 22:01:55 2005 From: tim.one at comcast.net (Tim Peters) Date: Mon Mar 28 22:02:02 2005 Subject: No ads please. (Re: [Pycon2005-attendees] IronPort is hiring) In-Reply-To: <8393fff0503281157707fa285@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050328200201.200D51E4007@bag.python.org> [Martin Blais] > which alternative list would be a good place for python-related jobs? The python.org "jobs board" is appropriate by definition : http://www.python.org/Jobs.html From sdeibel at wingware.com Mon Mar 28 22:06:53 2005 From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel) Date: Mon Mar 28 22:04:34 2005 Subject: No ads please. (Re: [Pycon2005-attendees] IronPort is hiring) In-Reply-To: <8393fff0503281157707fa285@mail.gmail.com> References: <42485F07.2000100@zope.com> <8393fff0503281157707fa285@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Mar 2005, Martin Blais wrote: > which alternative list would be a good place for python-related jobs? I can't seem to get in right now but http://python.org/jobs should have info on how to submit job postings. - Stephan From cameron at amitconsulting.com Mon Mar 28 21:42:47 2005 From: cameron at amitconsulting.com (Cameron K Brown) Date: Mon Mar 28 22:05:33 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Zope / Python in San Francisco References: Message-ID: <003901c533ce$b4fc7290$2fff5244@HomeOffice> I wasn't going to do this, but since I have received two others today... I have a colleague looking for 1-2 Zope/Python programmers in San Francisco. If I am not mistaken, it is full time, not consulting. You can contact me for more information if you are interested. Thanks to everyone else for being patient. Cameron Brown President AMIT Consulting LLC 19 Kensington Avenue #401 Jersey City, NJ 07304-5025 www.amitconsulting.com 201-946-2284 :land 917-749-3513 :mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pycon2005-attendees/attachments/20050328/682f162c/attachment-0001.htm From farcepest at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 22:06:11 2005 From: farcepest at gmail.com (Andy Dustman) Date: Mon Mar 28 22:06:21 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] IronPort is hiring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9826f38005032812064469cd10@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:58:38 -0500, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > Please excuse this advertisement. IronPort is a huge user of Python. In particular, they have products for stopping spam. Apparently they only work on incoming messages, which is unfortunate. -- Computer interfaces should never be made of meat. Using GMail? Setting Reply-to address to <> disables this annoying feature. You are in a maze of twisty little passages all alike. To go north, press 2. To go west, press 4. To go east, press 6. To go south, press 8. If you need assistance, press 0 and a little dwarf will assist you. From amk at amk.ca Mon Mar 28 22:11:52 2005 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Mon Mar 28 22:11:57 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Found items Message-ID: <20050328201152.GA421@rogue.amk.ca> In the closing hours of PyCon, I found a fountain pen at the registration desk -- not a disposable pen, but a rather nice calligraphy-style pen. If this pen is yours, please get in touch. Also, I previously reported that part of an Apple power cable was found in one of the sprint rooms. Later an Apple video dongle (still in its plastic wrapper) turned up. Neither item has been claimed. --amk From MWeiner at ag.com Mon Mar 28 22:13:16 2005 From: MWeiner at ag.com (MW Mike Weiner (5028)) Date: Mon Mar 28 22:13:19 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Found items Message-ID: <4FD2C985D5E2A642AE25823DFD61C2B0054D525B@orca.agcom.amgreetings.com> The apple video dongle was used in the openspace room Thursday at 1:30pm room 301 - if that helps you at all, that was during the Chandler openspace. Michael Weiner -----Original Message----- From: pycon2005-attendees-bounces+mweiner=ag.com@python.org [mailto:pycon2005-attendees-bounces+mweiner=ag.com@python.org] On Behalf Of A.M. Kuchling Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 3:12 PM To: pycon2005-attendees@python.org Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Found items In the closing hours of PyCon, I found a fountain pen at the registration desk -- not a disposable pen, but a rather nice calligraphy-style pen. If this pen is yours, please get in touch. Also, I previously reported that part of an Apple power cable was found in one of the sprint rooms. Later an Apple video dongle (still in its plastic wrapper) turned up. Neither item has been claimed. --amk _______________________________________________ Pycon2005-attendees mailing list Pycon2005-attendees@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon2005-attendees From jim at zope.com Mon Mar 28 22:15:39 2005 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Mon Mar 28 22:15:46 2005 Subject: No ads please. (Re: [Pycon2005-attendees] IronPort is hiring) In-Reply-To: <8393fff0503281157707fa285@mail.gmail.com> References: <42485F07.2000100@zope.com> <8393fff0503281157707fa285@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <424865EB.3050604@zope.com> Martin Blais wrote: > hi jim > > which alternative list would be a good place for python-related jobs? See http://www.python.org/Jobs.html Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From sdeibel at wingware.com Mon Mar 28 23:11:56 2005 From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel) Date: Mon Mar 28 23:09:27 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] EuroPython 2005 In-Reply-To: <42471F2A.70809@orbtech.com> References: <4243811C.7070704@clocksoft.com> <42471F2A.70809@orbtech.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Mar 2005, Patrick K. O'Brien wrote: > Is anyone from the US planning to attend? I looked at flights and it > looked to be a fairly expensive ($1500) and long (14 hours) trip. So I > was wondering in anyone from the states had travel advice. If I went > I'd be traveling from St. Louis, MO. I would like to go but don't yet know if I can. I'd look to the low housing costs to offset the travel. Unfortunately mid-summer europe flights are never going to be cheap. I'm seeing prices from Boston to Stockholm around $981 Sat->Sat. Same time range from St. Louis for $1052. Try eztrip.com (written with Python, BTW ;-). - Stephan From richard at commonground.com.au Mon Mar 28 23:45:09 2005 From: richard at commonground.com.au (Richard Jones) Date: Mon Mar 28 23:45:34 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Lightning talks Message-ID: <812659c27be2cf34414e119348f89720@commonground.com.au> Could the people who gave lightning talks please put an entry in the wiki page for their presentation including the relevant URL(s)? I'm specifically after the guy who gave the talk which included OpenURL, but given that there was a general cry of "what's the URL?" during talks, I think it'd be useful :) http://www.python.org/moin/PyConDC2005/LightningTalks Richard From pobrien at orbtech.com Mon Mar 28 23:23:08 2005 From: pobrien at orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien) Date: Mon Mar 28 23:45:57 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] EuroPython 2005 In-Reply-To: References: <4243811C.7070704@clocksoft.com> <42471F2A.70809@orbtech.com> Message-ID: <424875BC.30307@orbtech.com> Stephan Deibel wrote: > On Sun, 27 Mar 2005, Patrick K. O'Brien wrote: > >> Is anyone from the US planning to attend? I looked at flights and it >> looked to be a fairly expensive ($1500) and long (14 hours) trip. So I >> was wondering in anyone from the states had travel advice. If I went >> I'd be traveling from St. Louis, MO. > > > I would like to go but don't yet know if I can. I'd look to the low > housing costs to offset the travel. Unfortunately mid-summer europe > flights are never going to be cheap. I'm seeing prices from Boston to > Stockholm around $981 Sat->Sat. Same time range from St. Louis for > $1052. Try > eztrip.com (written with Python, BTW ;-). Cool site. Thanks for the tip. I'm curious to know how you are searching, though. When I search from STL to GOT leaving June 25 and returning July 2, the cheapest I get is US$1,330.95. I see now that you said you searched to arrive in Stockholm. Is that the best destination? -- Patrick K. O'Brien Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com Schevo http://www.schevo.org Pypersyst http://www.pypersyst.org From fdrake at acm.org Mon Mar 28 23:57:07 2005 From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.) Date: Mon Mar 28 23:57:18 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Lightning talks In-Reply-To: <812659c27be2cf34414e119348f89720@commonground.com.au> References: <812659c27be2cf34414e119348f89720@commonground.com.au> Message-ID: <200503281657.08250.fdrake@acm.org> On Monday 28 March 2005 16:45, Richard Jones wrote: > I'm specifically after the guy who gave the talk which included > OpenURL, but given that there was a general cry of "what's the URL?" > during talks, I think it'd be useful :) Googling for OpenURL provided pointers, but I've not had time to really look at any of them. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. From andi at osafoundation.org Tue Mar 29 00:19:13 2005 From: andi at osafoundation.org (Andi Vajda) Date: Tue Mar 29 00:18:57 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] EuroPython 2005 In-Reply-To: <424875BC.30307@orbtech.com> References: <4243811C.7070704@clocksoft.com> <42471F2A.70809@orbtech.com> <424875BC.30307@orbtech.com> Message-ID: Try flying into London or Frankfurt (usually the cheapest hubs in Europe) and then switching over to a low cost carrier like EasyJet or Ryanair. Andi.. On Mon, 28 Mar 2005, Patrick K. O'Brien wrote: > Stephan Deibel wrote: >> On Sun, 27 Mar 2005, Patrick K. O'Brien wrote: >> >>> Is anyone from the US planning to attend? I looked at flights and it >>> looked to be a fairly expensive ($1500) and long (14 hours) trip. So I >>> was wondering in anyone from the states had travel advice. If I went >>> I'd be traveling from St. Louis, MO. >> >> >> I would like to go but don't yet know if I can. I'd look to the low >> housing costs to offset the travel. Unfortunately mid-summer europe >> flights are never going to be cheap. I'm seeing prices from Boston to >> Stockholm around $981 Sat->Sat. Same time range from St. Louis for >> $1052. Try >> eztrip.com (written with Python, BTW ;-). > > Cool site. Thanks for the tip. I'm curious to know how you are > searching, though. When I search from STL to GOT leaving June 25 and > returning July 2, the cheapest I get is US$1,330.95. I see now that you > said you searched to arrive in Stockholm. Is that the best destination? > > -- > Patrick K. O'Brien > Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com > Schevo http://www.schevo.org > Pypersyst http://www.pypersyst.org > > _______________________________________________ > Pycon2005-attendees mailing list > Pycon2005-attendees@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon2005-attendees > From pobrien at orbtech.com Tue Mar 29 00:26:36 2005 From: pobrien at orbtech.com (Patrick K. O'Brien) Date: Tue Mar 29 00:26:52 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] EuroPython 2005 In-Reply-To: References: <4243811C.7070704@clocksoft.com> <42471F2A.70809@orbtech.com> <424875BC.30307@orbtech.com> Message-ID: <4248849C.3030308@orbtech.com> Andi Vajda wrote: > > Try flying into London or Frankfurt (usually the cheapest hubs in > Europe) and then switching over to a low cost carrier like EasyJet or > Ryanair. At least for me, flying into Stockholm appears to be the cheapest route so far (cheaper than London and Frankfurt). Perhaps the EuroPython folks could set up a mailing list for those of us in the United States who are interested in attending, so that we can stop polluting this PyCon list? -- Patrick K. O'Brien Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com Schevo http://www.schevo.org Pypersyst http://www.pypersyst.org From dalke at dalkescientific.com Tue Mar 29 00:30:04 2005 From: dalke at dalkescientific.com (Andrew Dalke) Date: Tue Mar 29 00:30:09 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] EuroPython 2005 In-Reply-To: <424875BC.30307@orbtech.com> References: <4243811C.7070704@clocksoft.com> <42471F2A.70809@orbtech.com> <424875BC.30307@orbtech.com> Message-ID: Patrick K. O'Brien: > Cool site. Thanks for the tip. I'm curious to know how you are > searching, though. When I search from STL to GOT leaving June 25 and > returning July 2, the cheapest I get is US$1,330.95. I see now that > you > said you searched to arrive in Stockholm. Is that the best > destination? Sadly I won't be able to make it to Europython this year. I went the last two years. I was looking forward to being in Sweden in summer but I have another conference to attend ... in Detroit. In any case, your best bet is to fly into Gothenburg directly. You could fly to Stockholm but then would need to take a train http://www.sj.se/ 1108 SEK on the express train X2000, 3 hours = ~$150 489 SEK on the intercity train, 4h 45m = ~$70 (Note: that web page doesn't accept non-Scandinavian credit cards) or fly. Malm? Aviation shows prices down to 670 SEK for the hour flight, plus figure another 100 SEK for the bus in and out of Gothenburg airport. Those prices are likely to change for the summer. Cost-wise it looks like that's still cheaper for you, if more of a hassle. On the plus side you could visit Stockholm too. Andrew dalke@dalkescientific.com From efm at tummy.com Mon Mar 28 17:53:05 2005 From: efm at tummy.com (Evelyn Mitchell) Date: Tue Mar 29 00:54:21 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Wifi applet Message-ID: <20050328155305.GA26484@tummy.com> Someone at lunch on Friday was looking for an easy way to find all accessible wifi devices. I couldn't remember the url at the time, so I thought I'd pass this on in case they're still watching. Plus, it's in python :) http://gtkwifi.sourceforge.net/ -- Regards, tummy.com, ltd Evelyn Mitchell Linux Consulting since 1995 efm@tummy.com Senior System and Network Administrators http://www.tummy.com/ From daniel.chudnov at yale.edu Tue Mar 29 01:37:51 2005 From: daniel.chudnov at yale.edu (Daniel Chudnov) Date: Tue Mar 29 01:38:01 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] Lightning talks In-Reply-To: <812659c27be2cf34414e119348f89720@commonground.com.au> References: <812659c27be2cf34414e119348f89720@commonground.com.au> Message-ID: <469241545e7e8aa1cf06635ed919cb75@yale.edu> On Mar 28, 2005, at 4:45 PM, Richard Jones wrote: > I'm specifically after the guy who gave the talk which included > OpenURL, but given that there was a general cry of "what's the URL?" > during talks, I think it'd be useful :) > > http://www.python.org/moin/PyConDC2005/LightningTalks That'd be me. There aren't any slides from that lightning talk, but here are a few quick pointers. I'll work something up to link to from the wiki, too. OpenURL was just announced as an approved NISO standard: http://www.niso.org/standards/standard_detail.cfm?std_id=783 Earlier drafts of that document were rather, ah, dense. This approved form is said to be easier reading (haven't read it yet, so wouldn't vouch for that claim). Still, for somewhat gentler introductions, see: http://www.dlib.org/dlib/july01/vandesompel/07vandesompel.html http://www.dlib.org/dlib/march01/vandesompel/03vandesompel.html I also mentioned that some colleagues and I have a paper coming out in the upcoming issue of Ariadne on "openurl (and metadata) autodiscovery". It should be available Real Soon from: http://www.ariadne.ac.uk/ In the meantime, google "openurl autodiscovery" for some ongoing prototype stuff. Just in case anybody was interested in the local projects I demonstrated, the Canary Database is online in public beta form at: http://canarydatabase.org/ ..and unalog, the del.icio.us-ish thing with wild bibliographic aspirations, and licensed as free software, can be poked at and downloaded/svn'd here: http://unalog.com/ http://curtis.med.yale.edu/unalog-trac Waaay past 5 minutes, now. -dchud From mark at beehive-eu.com Tue Mar 29 11:28:54 2005 From: mark at beehive-eu.com (Mark Pratt) Date: Tue Mar 29 11:29:07 2005 Subject: No ads please. (Re: [Pycon2005-attendees] IronPort is hiring) In-Reply-To: References: <42485F07.2000100@zope.com> <8393fff0503281157707fa285@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32677072a8585bde39182ae0b9276506@beehive-eu.com> Hi, The easiest way to post jobs not just for Python but Zope, Plone, etc is via: http://www.opensourcexperts.com/Jobs all info is sent out as RSS feeds as well. Cheers, Mark On Mar 28, 2005, at 10:06 PM, Stephan Deibel wrote: > On Mon, 28 Mar 2005, Martin Blais wrote: >> which alternative list would be a good place for python-related jobs? > > I can't seem to get in right now but http://python.org/jobs should have > info on how to submit job postings. > > - Stephan > > _______________________________________________ > Pycon2005-attendees mailing list > Pycon2005-attendees@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon2005-attendees > > From jbauer at rubic.com Wed Mar 30 22:53:55 2005 From: jbauer at rubic.com (Jeff Bauer) Date: Wed Mar 30 22:53:34 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] PyCon 2006 Message-ID: <424B11E3.7030503@rubic.com> In the planning session Andrew Kuchling mentioned a link for PyCon 2006 volunteers, but I can't seem to locate it. Jeff Bauer Rubicon, Inc. From amk at amk.ca Wed Mar 30 22:55:23 2005 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Wed Mar 30 22:55:35 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] PyCon 2006 In-Reply-To: <424B11E3.7030503@rubic.com> References: <424B11E3.7030503@rubic.com> Message-ID: <20050330205523.GA15545@rogue.amk.ca> On Wed, Mar 30, 2005 at 02:53:55PM -0600, Jeff Bauer wrote: > In the planning session Andrew Kuchling mentioned > a link for PyCon 2006 volunteers, but I can't seem > to locate it. http://www.python.org/moin/PyCon2006/Staff --amk From ttt at cwru.edu Wed Mar 30 23:37:29 2005 From: ttt at cwru.edu (Tom Trelvik) Date: Wed Mar 30 23:37:50 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] recordings Message-ID: <424B1C19.7070602@cwru.edu> I was thrilled to hear the talks were being recorded and Creative Commons licensed (if the speaker allowed it) this year, and I'm anxious to point a number of people to certain talks when they're up. Does anybody know where I'll be able to find them when they're available? pycon.org doesn't look like it's been updated yet, but I did find these pages: http://www.python.org/moin/PyConDC2005/TalkRecording http://www.python.org/pycon/2005/papers/ Anyone know what the plan is? Thanks, Tom From amk at amk.ca Thu Mar 31 00:20:27 2005 From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling) Date: Thu Mar 31 00:20:40 2005 Subject: [Pycon2005-attendees] recordings In-Reply-To: <424B1C19.7070602@cwru.edu> References: <424B1C19.7070602@cwru.edu> Message-ID: <20050330222027.GA16129@rogue.amk.ca> On Wed, Mar 30, 2005 at 04:37:29PM -0500, Tom Trelvik wrote: > to point a number of people to certain talks when they're up. Does > anybody know where I'll be able to find them when they're available? Probably archive.org, though that isn't a firm decision yet. There will be an announcement on python.org once the audio is available. --amk