From brett at python.org  Tue Jul 26 18:22:52 2016
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 22:22:52 +0000
Subject: [Overload-sig] where does everything sit?
Message-ID: <CAP1=2W57HwcPUBbRjGXbsZ=O-ghrn25yuvEonaHSPUpyGtsMbg@mail.gmail.com>

I asked two weeks ago on discuss.python.org but only Donald replied with a
guess of where things sit. Are we currently waiting for a test instance of
MM3 to play with? If so where does that currently sit and is there anything
we can help with to make it happen? If that's not what's holding us up then
what is?
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From guido at python.org  Tue Jul 26 19:51:54 2016
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 16:51:54 -0700
Subject: [Overload-sig] where does everything sit?
In-Reply-To: <CAP1=2W57HwcPUBbRjGXbsZ=O-ghrn25yuvEonaHSPUpyGtsMbg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP1=2W57HwcPUBbRjGXbsZ=O-ghrn25yuvEonaHSPUpyGtsMbg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP7+vJJvXt2aj6xY6NyAX673kWPO4SYAgo2zAEXimx_P53KNGQ@mail.gmail.com>

I'm personally waiting for a MM3 instance we can play with.

I don't recall seeing your question or maybe I felt I was waiting for
Steve's response.

I'm getting cold feet about Discourse -- the UI is pretty complex and
has a bit of a learning curve.

The main lists have repeated the basic sins many times though since we
started this -- most recently IIRC the discussion about whether to add
an ABC that combines Sized, Iterable, Container degenerated into some
side topic. So there's still something to be done IMO.

On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 3:22 PM, Brett Cannon <brett at python.org> wrote:
> I asked two weeks ago on discuss.python.org but only Donald replied with a
> guess of where things sit. Are we currently waiting for a test instance of
> MM3 to play with? If so where does that currently sit and is there anything
> we can help with to make it happen? If that's not what's holding us up then
> what is?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Overload-sig mailing list
> Overload-sig at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig
>



-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)

From brett at python.org  Tue Jul 26 21:54:54 2016
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2016 01:54:54 +0000
Subject: [Overload-sig] where does everything sit?
In-Reply-To: <CAP7+vJJvXt2aj6xY6NyAX673kWPO4SYAgo2zAEXimx_P53KNGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP1=2W57HwcPUBbRjGXbsZ=O-ghrn25yuvEonaHSPUpyGtsMbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJvXt2aj6xY6NyAX673kWPO4SYAgo2zAEXimx_P53KNGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP1=2W6kcNhDGeFuOXuye4kaCWbzw7aJkasUq3sc=3gszMyftQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, I definitely agree that the problem has not gone away with time.

So if we're waiting for MM3 to try out then I guess we're waiting to hear
from Stephen since he was initially pushing that part of the process?

On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 at 16:59 Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:

> I'm personally waiting for a MM3 instance we can play with.
>
> I don't recall seeing your question or maybe I felt I was waiting for
> Steve's response.
>
> I'm getting cold feet about Discourse -- the UI is pretty complex and
> has a bit of a learning curve.
>
> The main lists have repeated the basic sins many times though since we
> started this -- most recently IIRC the discussion about whether to add
> an ABC that combines Sized, Iterable, Container degenerated into some
> side topic. So there's still something to be done IMO.
>
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 3:22 PM, Brett Cannon <brett at python.org> wrote:
> > I asked two weeks ago on discuss.python.org but only Donald replied
> with a
> > guess of where things sit. Are we currently waiting for a test instance
> of
> > MM3 to play with? If so where does that currently sit and is there
> anything
> > we can help with to make it happen? If that's not what's holding us up
> then
> > what is?
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Overload-sig mailing list
> > Overload-sig at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig
> >
>
>
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
>
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From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Tue Jul 26 22:54:39 2016
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2016 11:54:39 +0900
Subject: [Overload-sig]  where does everything sit?
In-Reply-To: <CAP1=2W57HwcPUBbRjGXbsZ=O-ghrn25yuvEonaHSPUpyGtsMbg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP1=2W57HwcPUBbRjGXbsZ=O-ghrn25yuvEonaHSPUpyGtsMbg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22424.8815.105550.686409@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Brett Cannon writes:

 > I asked two weeks ago on discuss.python.org but only Donald replied with a
 > guess of where things sit.

Yes, I'm sorry about that.  $DAYJOB has been hell, and around the
beginning of July xemacs.org's nameservers (provided by tux.org) went
away without warning.  I should have communicated -- mea maxima culpa!
-- but I just haven't had the stomach to even look at mail except for
absolutely necessary work stuff.

My last $DAYJOB commitment with a deadline is a student's defense on
Friday, then I'm free to be productive for the summer.  I do really
really want to see this guy's back, so I'm pretty much at his service
for the duration.

 > Are we currently waiting for a test instance of MM3 to play with?

mail.python.org already supports Mailman 3 to some extent.  I think
Mark may already have made an overload-sig list, I need to communicate
with him.  I think I just need to populate it and then he changes the
MTA alias, and this list becomes a Mailman 3 list.

 > If that's not what's holding us up then what is?

Mostly, she turned me into a nyewt.  ... But it got bettah!

Steve

-- 
Associate Professor            Department of Policy and Planning Science
http://turnbull/sk.tsukuba.ac.jp/     Faculty of Systems and Information
Email: turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp                   University of Tsukuba
Tel: 029-853-5175                 Tennodai 1-1-1, Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN

From brett at python.org  Wed Jul 27 12:33:33 2016
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2016 16:33:33 +0000
Subject: [Overload-sig] where does everything sit?
In-Reply-To: <22424.8815.105550.686409@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
References: <CAP1=2W57HwcPUBbRjGXbsZ=O-ghrn25yuvEonaHSPUpyGtsMbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <22424.8815.105550.686409@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <CAP1=2W5G2HNS67LL_5==HTCLcVePMaEo7WbtS1atm_FNenYuDg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the update, Steve! And as a PhD myself I appreciate you making
sure your defending student has the support they need.

On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 at 19:54 Stephen J. Turnbull <
turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote:

> Brett Cannon writes:
>
>  > I asked two weeks ago on discuss.python.org but only Donald replied
> with a
>  > guess of where things sit.
>
> Yes, I'm sorry about that.  $DAYJOB has been hell, and around the
> beginning of July xemacs.org's nameservers (provided by tux.org) went
> away without warning.  I should have communicated -- mea maxima culpa!
> -- but I just haven't had the stomach to even look at mail except for
> absolutely necessary work stuff.
>
> My last $DAYJOB commitment with a deadline is a student's defense on
> Friday, then I'm free to be productive for the summer.  I do really
> really want to see this guy's back, so I'm pretty much at his service
> for the duration.
>
>  > Are we currently waiting for a test instance of MM3 to play with?
>
> mail.python.org already supports Mailman 3 to some extent.  I think
> Mark may already have made an overload-sig list, I need to communicate
> with him.  I think I just need to populate it and then he changes the
> MTA alias, and this list becomes a Mailman 3 list.
>
>  > If that's not what's holding us up then what is?
>
> Mostly, she turned me into a nyewt.  ... But it got bettah!
>
> Steve
>
> --
> Associate Professor            Department of Policy and Planning Science
> http://turnbull/sk.tsukuba.ac.jp/     Faculty of Systems and Information
> Email: turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp                   University of Tsukuba
> Tel: 029-853-5175                 Tennodai 1-1-1, Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
>
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From brett at python.org  Thu Jul 28 13:48:18 2016
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 17:48:18 +0000
Subject: [Overload-sig] Gmane may be shutting down
Message-ID: <CAP1=2W68eYYBdHOZNrivC5GdLB7z2hhQR3HxLshjLwnUoSv2+w@mail.gmail.com>

Looks like the maintainer is burning out:
https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/

If gmane is shut down it will impact the accessibility of our MM2 lists I
suspect as gmane seems to be popular enough, so our work may have just
become a bit more important.
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From guido at python.org  Thu Jul 28 14:31:10 2016
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 11:31:10 -0700
Subject: [Overload-sig] Gmane may be shutting down
In-Reply-To: <CAP1=2W68eYYBdHOZNrivC5GdLB7z2hhQR3HxLshjLwnUoSv2+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP1=2W68eYYBdHOZNrivC5GdLB7z2hhQR3HxLshjLwnUoSv2+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP7+vJ+UWTUVZAuqF+037tu43qGiyR8=2zpF8Rvr3WS7=GrU1Q@mail.gmail.com>

Oh, man! :-(

It's the tragedy of the commons. The ReadTheDocs team is close to
burn-out too, as is of course our own Donald "PyPI is not my middle
name" Stufft.

Companies using open source really need to take care better of their
infrastructure, and we can't always look at Google or Mozilla.


On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Brett Cannon <brett at python.org> wrote:
> Looks like the maintainer is burning out:
> https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/
>
> If gmane is shut down it will impact the accessibility of our MM2 lists I
> suspect as gmane seems to be popular enough, so our work may have just
> become a bit more important.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Overload-sig mailing list
> Overload-sig at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig
>



-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)

From brett at python.org  Thu Jul 28 14:38:29 2016
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 18:38:29 +0000
Subject: [Overload-sig] Gmane may be shutting down
In-Reply-To: <CAP7+vJ+UWTUVZAuqF+037tu43qGiyR8=2zpF8Rvr3WS7=GrU1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP1=2W68eYYBdHOZNrivC5GdLB7z2hhQR3HxLshjLwnUoSv2+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJ+UWTUVZAuqF+037tu43qGiyR8=2zpF8Rvr3WS7=GrU1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP1=2W54KZe29Dw=PZFyooz59P=30UKZ8gCHwJD0hqNMMR74mg@mail.gmail.com>

Yep. Nadia Eghbal's Ford Foundation report is unfortunately very accurate
and topical, but that isn't news to anyone on this list (I hope).

Anyway, the reason I brought it up is that I know people have used gmane to
access our mailing lists and if it goes away then we lose the one
web-accessible solution to our mailing lists in terms of replying, etc. (or
at least the one that I'm aware of). Does MM3 have a solution if gmane goes
away?

On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 at 11:31 Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:

> Oh, man! :-(
>
> It's the tragedy of the commons. The ReadTheDocs team is close to
> burn-out too, as is of course our own Donald "PyPI is not my middle
> name" Stufft.
>
> Companies using open source really need to take care better of their
> infrastructure, and we can't always look at Google or Mozilla.
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Brett Cannon <brett at python.org> wrote:
> > Looks like the maintainer is burning out:
> > https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/
> >
> > If gmane is shut down it will impact the accessibility of our MM2 lists I
> > suspect as gmane seems to be popular enough, so our work may have just
> > become a bit more important.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Overload-sig mailing list
> > Overload-sig at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig
> >
>
>
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
>
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From guido at python.org  Thu Jul 28 14:41:38 2016
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 11:41:38 -0700
Subject: [Overload-sig] Gmane may be shutting down
In-Reply-To: <CAP1=2W54KZe29Dw=PZFyooz59P=30UKZ8gCHwJD0hqNMMR74mg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP1=2W68eYYBdHOZNrivC5GdLB7z2hhQR3HxLshjLwnUoSv2+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJ+UWTUVZAuqF+037tu43qGiyR8=2zpF8Rvr3WS7=GrU1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP1=2W54KZe29Dw=PZFyooz59P=30UKZ8gCHwJD0hqNMMR74mg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP7+vJJz=J22qMjJKMYOw9=ROUZEnYtu4hkxx_8FY8tzq-yeMQ@mail.gmail.com>

I don't want to speak for Steve, but I thought that was the whole
point of MM3? Or at least HyperKitty?

On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 11:38 AM, Brett Cannon <brett at python.org> wrote:
> Yep. Nadia Eghbal's Ford Foundation report is unfortunately very accurate
> and topical, but that isn't news to anyone on this list (I hope).
>
> Anyway, the reason I brought it up is that I know people have used gmane to
> access our mailing lists and if it goes away then we lose the one
> web-accessible solution to our mailing lists in terms of replying, etc. (or
> at least the one that I'm aware of). Does MM3 have a solution if gmane goes
> away?
>
> On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 at 11:31 Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
>>
>> Oh, man! :-(
>>
>> It's the tragedy of the commons. The ReadTheDocs team is close to
>> burn-out too, as is of course our own Donald "PyPI is not my middle
>> name" Stufft.
>>
>> Companies using open source really need to take care better of their
>> infrastructure, and we can't always look at Google or Mozilla.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Brett Cannon <brett at python.org> wrote:
>> > Looks like the maintainer is burning out:
>> > https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/
>> >
>> > If gmane is shut down it will impact the accessibility of our MM2 lists
>> > I
>> > suspect as gmane seems to be popular enough, so our work may have just
>> > become a bit more important.
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Overload-sig mailing list
>> > Overload-sig at python.org
>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)



-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)

From brett at python.org  Thu Jul 28 15:16:10 2016
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 19:16:10 +0000
Subject: [Overload-sig] Gmane may be shutting down
In-Reply-To: <92392616-2C0E-4E83-BAAC-00B6A99DE24D@theolliviers.com>
References: <CAP1=2W68eYYBdHOZNrivC5GdLB7z2hhQR3HxLshjLwnUoSv2+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJ+UWTUVZAuqF+037tu43qGiyR8=2zpF8Rvr3WS7=GrU1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <92392616-2C0E-4E83-BAAC-00B6A99DE24D@theolliviers.com>
Message-ID: <CAP1=2W6MapZ4jDMW_xuACxMr_foQaikP=HdtJ+RJAhmNQgKimQ@mail.gmail.com>

I'm going to stop myself from replying because this is already veering
off-topic for this mailing list. If you would like answers to your
questions, Kevin, feel free to email me off-list.

On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 at 12:11 Kevin Ollivier <kevin-lists at theolliviers.com>
wrote:

>
> On 7/28/16, 11:31 AM, "Overload-sig on behalf of Guido van Rossum"
> <overload-sig-bounces+kevin-lists=theolliviers.com at python.org on behalf
> of guido at python.org> wrote:
>
> >Oh, man! :-(
> >
> >It's the tragedy of the commons. The ReadTheDocs team is close to
> >burn-out too, as is of course our own Donald "PyPI is not my middle
> >name" Stufft.
> >
> >Companies using open source really need to take care better of their
> >infrastructure, and we can't always look at Google or Mozilla.
>
> Has Python ever dabbled with a sort of Red Hat like support contract
> system, say custom development services, e.g. optimization and debugging
> assistance?
>


>
> I will say that until I joined these lists I really had no idea that PyPI
> largely (completely?) has fallen on the shoulders of one guy. :( Given the
> size of Python and PyPI, I would never have guessed that, though if it's
> any consolation to Donald, it does sort of make him a superhero. :)
> Honestly, after this major upcoming Nov. 1st deadline I have for my
> educational startup, if I haven't gone broke ;) , I'd be happy to
> contribute money, time or both. It's insane that something relied upon by
> so many has so few resources devoted to it.
>
> Anyway, as it was in my case, I suspect part of the problem is one of
> awareness. I'm fairly certain with PyPI that a large number of people who
> could afford to pay would have real problems if it went away. Maybe blowing
> the horn would help? Do one of those Wikipedia-like drives on the PyPI
> index or Python itself?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kevin
>
> >On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Brett Cannon <brett at python.org> wrote:
> >> Looks like the maintainer is burning out:
> >> https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/
> >>
> >> If gmane is shut down it will impact the accessibility of our MM2 lists
> I
> >> suspect as gmane seems to be popular enough, so our work may have just
> >> become a bit more important.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Overload-sig mailing list
> >> Overload-sig at python.org
> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
> >_______________________________________________
> >Overload-sig mailing list
> >Overload-sig at python.org
> >https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig
>
>
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From kevin-lists at theolliviers.com  Thu Jul 28 15:11:13 2016
From: kevin-lists at theolliviers.com (Kevin Ollivier)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 12:11:13 -0700
Subject: [Overload-sig] Gmane may be shutting down
In-Reply-To: <CAP7+vJ+UWTUVZAuqF+037tu43qGiyR8=2zpF8Rvr3WS7=GrU1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP1=2W68eYYBdHOZNrivC5GdLB7z2hhQR3HxLshjLwnUoSv2+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJ+UWTUVZAuqF+037tu43qGiyR8=2zpF8Rvr3WS7=GrU1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <92392616-2C0E-4E83-BAAC-00B6A99DE24D@theolliviers.com>


On 7/28/16, 11:31 AM, "Overload-sig on behalf of Guido van Rossum" <overload-sig-bounces+kevin-lists=theolliviers.com at python.org on behalf of guido at python.org> wrote:

>Oh, man! :-(
>
>It's the tragedy of the commons. The ReadTheDocs team is close to
>burn-out too, as is of course our own Donald "PyPI is not my middle
>name" Stufft.
>
>Companies using open source really need to take care better of their
>infrastructure, and we can't always look at Google or Mozilla.

Has Python ever dabbled with a sort of Red Hat like support contract system, say custom development services, e.g. optimization and debugging assistance? 

I will say that until I joined these lists I really had no idea that PyPI largely (completely?) has fallen on the shoulders of one guy. :( Given the size of Python and PyPI, I would never have guessed that, though if it's any consolation to Donald, it does sort of make him a superhero. :) Honestly, after this major upcoming Nov. 1st deadline I have for my educational startup, if I haven't gone broke ;) , I'd be happy to contribute money, time or both. It's insane that something relied upon by so many has so few resources devoted to it.

Anyway, as it was in my case, I suspect part of the problem is one of awareness. I'm fairly certain with PyPI that a large number of people who could afford to pay would have real problems if it went away. Maybe blowing the horn would help? Do one of those Wikipedia-like drives on the PyPI index or Python itself? 

Thanks,

Kevin

>On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Brett Cannon <brett at python.org> wrote:
>> Looks like the maintainer is burning out:
>> https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/
>>
>> If gmane is shut down it will impact the accessibility of our MM2 lists I
>> suspect as gmane seems to be popular enough, so our work may have just
>> become a bit more important.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Overload-sig mailing list
>> Overload-sig at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig
>>
>
>
>
>-- 
>--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
>_______________________________________________
>Overload-sig mailing list
>Overload-sig at python.org
>https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig


From donald at stufft.io  Thu Jul 28 15:20:53 2016
From: donald at stufft.io (Donald Stufft)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 15:20:53 -0400
Subject: [Overload-sig] Gmane may be shutting down
In-Reply-To: <CAP7+vJJz=J22qMjJKMYOw9=ROUZEnYtu4hkxx_8FY8tzq-yeMQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP1=2W68eYYBdHOZNrivC5GdLB7z2hhQR3HxLshjLwnUoSv2+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJ+UWTUVZAuqF+037tu43qGiyR8=2zpF8Rvr3WS7=GrU1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP1=2W54KZe29Dw=PZFyooz59P=30UKZ8gCHwJD0hqNMMR74mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJz=J22qMjJKMYOw9=ROUZEnYtu4hkxx_8FY8tzq-yeMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5476ED1B-5FD0-40A7-A4B6-80F0ED753497@stufft.io>


> On Jul 28, 2016, at 2:41 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
> 
> I don't want to speak for Steve, but I thought that was the whole
> point of MM3? Or at least HyperKitty?


I do believe this is the purpose of HyperKitty. Although from a quick clicking around on the Fedora HyperKitty instance it doesn?t actually let you reply via the web, the ?Reply? button is just a mailto: link with the correct values filled out (including In-Reply-To and such). This might be close enough to not matter? I?m not sure.

?
Donald Stufft




From barry at python.org  Thu Jul 28 20:48:57 2016
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 20:48:57 -0400
Subject: [Overload-sig] Gmane may be shutting down
In-Reply-To: <CAP1=2W68eYYBdHOZNrivC5GdLB7z2hhQR3HxLshjLwnUoSv2+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP1=2W68eYYBdHOZNrivC5GdLB7z2hhQR3HxLshjLwnUoSv2+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160728204857.3b8e7eed@subdivisions.wooz.org>

On Jul 28, 2016, at 05:48 PM, Brett Cannon wrote:

>Looks like the maintainer is burning out:
>https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/

I'm just reading about this after about a week off the net.  I have a lot of
catching up to do, but I think there may be ways Mailman 3 can help here.
We've long discussed providing a built-in NNTP (and/or IMAP), and given the
MM3 architecture I don't think it would be a ton of work for someone with
Python 3 experience, protocol knowledge, and time. ;)

I read a follow up comment saying that Lars will be keeping the NNTP/SMTP
bridge up, so I'm going to contact Aurelien (the HyperKitty project lead) to
see if he has any thoughts on how well HK could front the existing Gmane
archive.

Cheers,
-Barry

From barry at python.org  Fri Jul 29 16:31:36 2016
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 16:31:36 -0400
Subject: [Overload-sig] Gmane may be shutting down
In-Reply-To: <CAP7+vJJz=J22qMjJKMYOw9=ROUZEnYtu4hkxx_8FY8tzq-yeMQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP1=2W68eYYBdHOZNrivC5GdLB7z2hhQR3HxLshjLwnUoSv2+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJ+UWTUVZAuqF+037tu43qGiyR8=2zpF8Rvr3WS7=GrU1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP1=2W54KZe29Dw=PZFyooz59P=30UKZ8gCHwJD0hqNMMR74mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJz=J22qMjJKMYOw9=ROUZEnYtu4hkxx_8FY8tzq-yeMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160729163136.52d7a6b2.barry@wooz.org>

On Jul 28, 2016, at 03:20 PM, Donald Stufft wrote:

>I do believe this is the purpose of HyperKitty. Although from a quick
>clicking around on the Fedora HyperKitty instance it doesn?t actually let you
>reply via the web, the ?Reply? button is just a mailto: link with the correct
>values filled out (including In-Reply-To and such). This might be close
>enough to not matter? I?m not sure.

You can play with an instance of HK on lists.mailman3.org (there's also one on
python.org that Mark is building out).

Bottom line, yes, you can reply via the web to messages on the mailing list.
E.g.

https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-users at mailman3.org/thread/XM6XAOXUAXOKTSL4OBLHFTKVVJBG2TIP/

Note the "Use email software" button which provides the mailto:, however just
filling out the form and hitting Send will post it back to the mailing list
via internal REST APIs, so no MUA is needed.

Note however that logging into HK (and Postorius) is going to change soon.
We've been relying on Mozilla's Persona project to do logins because it's just
about perfect for Mailman, but Mozilla is shutting down that service, and
while the code is open source, it's very unlikely anyone is going to continue
to run a Persona instance.

Dan Callahan from Mozilla demoed a much simpler replacement at PyconUS 2016,
which could fill the same purpose, but I haven't heard anything more about
that in a long while, so it's not a viable option.

Meaning, for *right* now, Google or Facebook logins will be needed, but IIUC,
our wonderful HK/Postorius developers are working on integrating
django-social-auth which is more or less the norm for logging into a Django
site.  Ideally of course, if/when python.org gets SSO, we could use that too.

That's all in addition to the two integration points I mentioned early.  Way
back in the day, I prototyped a NNTP/Mailman bridge using Twisted and it
worked pretty well.  Given that MM3 today has a very robust REST API, and HK
has a very nice web ui, I think something Gmane-lite-like could be done with a
reasonable amount of effort.  It would be fairly siloed, in that the only
lists available from the NNTP server would be those vended by MM3 on that
site, but I think that's good enough.  NNTP does have ways to propagate
mailing lists, so once you had an NNTP interface, it probably wouldn't be
difficult to federate them somehow.

MM3 also has a very flexible "archiver" interface, which is where I think an
NNTP ui would fit in.  We also have a GSoC student doing excellent work on a
pubsub archiver which just about any external system could be connected to.
So even if (as I'm sure we all hope) Lars finds a way to continue Gmane going,
these APIs would serve as a better way to get messages into and out of a
Mailman 3 mailing list.

Cheers,
-Barry

From barry at python.org  Fri Jul 29 16:35:13 2016
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 16:35:13 -0400
Subject: [Overload-sig] where does everything sit?
In-Reply-To: <CAP1=2W6kcNhDGeFuOXuye4kaCWbzw7aJkasUq3sc=3gszMyftQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP1=2W57HwcPUBbRjGXbsZ=O-ghrn25yuvEonaHSPUpyGtsMbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJvXt2aj6xY6NyAX673kWPO4SYAgo2zAEXimx_P53KNGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP1=2W6kcNhDGeFuOXuye4kaCWbzw7aJkasUq3sc=3gszMyftQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160729163513.783329dc.barry@wooz.org>

On Jul 27, 2016, at 01:54 AM, Brett Cannon wrote:

>So if we're waiting for MM3 to try out then I guess we're waiting to hear
>from Stephen since he was initially pushing that part of the process?

In the meantime, I'm CC'ing Mark Sapiro who can provide more detail on the
operational aspects of Mailman 3 on python.org infrastructure.

From a project perspective, as I mentioned previously, our big hangup right
now is migrating away from Mozilla's soon to be decommissioned Persona
project, to django-social-auth.  My understanding is that branches are in
progress there (it's one of the big blockers for MM3.1).

Cheers,
-Barry

From turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp  Sat Jul 30 03:11:30 2016
From: turnbull.stephen.fw at u.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2016 16:11:30 +0900
Subject: [Overload-sig] Gmane may be shutting down
In-Reply-To: <CAP7+vJ+UWTUVZAuqF+037tu43qGiyR8=2zpF8Rvr3WS7=GrU1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP1=2W68eYYBdHOZNrivC5GdLB7z2hhQR3HxLshjLwnUoSv2+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJ+UWTUVZAuqF+037tu43qGiyR8=2zpF8Rvr3WS7=GrU1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22428.21282.533494.913324@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>

Guido van Rossum writes:

 > Companies using open source really need to take care better of their
 > infrastructure,

A bunch of ideas about this occured to me, but I decided this is not
the place or time.  If you can't wait for the blog post (nb, I don't
have a blog at the moment :-?), write me off-list.

 > > If gmane is shut down it will impact the accessibility of our MM2
 > > lists I suspect as gmane seems to be popular enough, so our work
 > > may have just become a bit more important.

That depends on whether Gmane users use the web interface or the NNTP
interface.  If the latter, MM2 has a bidirectional mail<->news
gateway.  I guess we'd need to spin up a separate news server, but we
could restrict it to carrying python.org lists.  MM3 doesn't have an
NNTP gateway yet, but it shouldn't be hard to add one.

As I mentioned, I'm now free to do socially useful things.  I will get
in touch with Mark to get the MM3 version of this list running.  I
will post an annotated, tentative agenda after reviewing earlier posts
on this list and on the Discourse instance.  I expect that will elicit
additional items (ones I missed and ones suggested to somebody by the
list), and some items will be postponed indefinitely.

Steve

From mark at msapiro.net  Fri Jul 29 17:31:33 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 14:31:33 -0700
Subject: [Overload-sig] where does everything sit?
In-Reply-To: <20160729163513.783329dc.barry@wooz.org>
References: <CAP1=2W57HwcPUBbRjGXbsZ=O-ghrn25yuvEonaHSPUpyGtsMbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJvXt2aj6xY6NyAX673kWPO4SYAgo2zAEXimx_P53KNGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP1=2W6kcNhDGeFuOXuye4kaCWbzw7aJkasUq3sc=3gszMyftQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160729163513.783329dc.barry@wooz.org>
Message-ID: <f7202f34-3114-5406-ebe0-92380295a9af@msapiro.net>

On 07/29/2016 01:35 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> 
> In the meantime, I'm CC'ing Mark Sapiro who can provide more detail on the
> operational aspects of Mailman 3 on python.org infrastructure.


Mailman 3 is operational on python.org. The web UI, Postorius and
HyperKitty, is at <https://mail.python.org/mm3/>.

There are currently 5 lists:

> List name 	Post address 	Description
> GeoPython-Organizers 	geopython-organizers at python.org 	Organisation of the yearly GeoPython Conference
> GeoPython 	geopython at python.org 	GeoPython Discussions - general discussions about Python & Geo
> MM3_test 	mm3_test at python.org 	Mailman 3 test list
> Overload-sig 	overload-sig at python.org 	Overload SIG: discussion of ways to improve discourse on Python development channels
> SwissPythonSummit 	swisspythonsummit at python.org 	Discussions about the yearly Python conference in Switzerland


MM3_test is my playground. Overload-sig was set up to migrate the
Mailman 2.1 list of the same name, but this hasn't been done yet -
Postfix is setup so if there is both an MM 3 list and an MM 2.1 list
with the same name, mail is delivered to the 2.1 list.

The other 3 lists are actual lists requested by people who were willing
to try Mailman 3. The GeoPython list has over 60 members and archived posts.


> From a project perspective, as I mentioned previously, our big hangup right
> now is migrating away from Mozilla's soon to be decommissioned Persona
> project, to django-social-auth.  My understanding is that branches are in
> progress there (it's one of the big blockers for MM3.1).


That of course affects the python.org installation. I am going to try to
add both GitHub and GitLab as additional OAuth2 providers. Currently we
have only Google and Facebook. Yahoo works, but I won't make it
available until we get some DMARC mitigations for MM 3. Twitter is
problematic - they will authenticate you but don't give us your email
address.

Note that I will be on a back country hiking trip from August 5 - 16 and
will be totally off-line for most of that time.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From guido at python.org  Sun Jul 31 11:34:08 2016
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2016 08:34:08 -0700
Subject: [Overload-sig] where does everything sit?
In-Reply-To: <f7202f34-3114-5406-ebe0-92380295a9af@msapiro.net>
References: <CAP1=2W57HwcPUBbRjGXbsZ=O-ghrn25yuvEonaHSPUpyGtsMbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJvXt2aj6xY6NyAX673kWPO4SYAgo2zAEXimx_P53KNGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP1=2W6kcNhDGeFuOXuye4kaCWbzw7aJkasUq3sc=3gszMyftQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160729163513.783329dc.barry@wooz.org>
 <f7202f34-3114-5406-ebe0-92380295a9af@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAP7+vJK4QX9ikMjCb0njpYWOEP-ExnRoaszWw3RfyNPrHbwqvA@mail.gmail.com>

Steve, could you translate this? Its so full of arcane implementation
jargon that the only thing i understood was the part about going on a trip.

On Friday, July 29, 2016, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:

> On 07/29/2016 01:35 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> >
> > In the meantime, I'm CC'ing Mark Sapiro who can provide more detail on
> the
> > operational aspects of Mailman 3 on python.org infrastructure.
>
>
> Mailman 3 is operational on python.org. The web UI, Postorius and
> HyperKitty, is at <https://mail.python.org/mm3/>.
>
> There are currently 5 lists:
>
> > List name     Post address    Description
> > GeoPython-Organizers  geopython-organizers at python.org <javascript:;>
>     Organisation of the yearly GeoPython Conference
> > GeoPython     geopython at python.org <javascript:;>        GeoPython
> Discussions - general discussions about Python & Geo
> > MM3_test      mm3_test at python.org <javascript:;>        Mailman 3 test
> list
> > Overload-sig  overload-sig at python.org <javascript:;>        Overload
> SIG: discussion of ways to improve discourse on Python development channels
> > SwissPythonSummit     swisspythonsummit at python.org <javascript:;>
>   Discussions about the yearly Python conference in Switzerland
>
>
> MM3_test is my playground. Overload-sig was set up to migrate the
> Mailman 2.1 list of the same name, but this hasn't been done yet -
> Postfix is setup so if there is both an MM 3 list and an MM 2.1 list
> with the same name, mail is delivered to the 2.1 list.
>
> The other 3 lists are actual lists requested by people who were willing
> to try Mailman 3. The GeoPython list has over 60 members and archived
> posts.
>
>
> > From a project perspective, as I mentioned previously, our big hangup
> right
> > now is migrating away from Mozilla's soon to be decommissioned Persona
> > project, to django-social-auth.  My understanding is that branches are in
> > progress there (it's one of the big blockers for MM3.1).
>
>
> That of course affects the python.org installation. I am going to try to
> add both GitHub and GitLab as additional OAuth2 providers. Currently we
> have only Google and Facebook. Yahoo works, but I won't make it
> available until we get some DMARC mitigations for MM 3. Twitter is
> problematic - they will authenticate you but don't give us your email
> address.
>
> Note that I will be on a back country hiking trip from August 5 - 16 and
> will be totally off-line for most of that time.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net <javascript:;>>        The highway is for
> gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan
> _______________________________________________
> Overload-sig mailing list
> Overload-sig at python.org <javascript:;>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig
>


-- 
--Guido (mobile)
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From mark at msapiro.net  Sun Jul 31 12:05:27 2016
From: mark at msapiro.net (Mark Sapiro)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2016 09:05:27 -0700
Subject: [Overload-sig] where does everything sit?
In-Reply-To: <CAP7+vJK4QX9ikMjCb0njpYWOEP-ExnRoaszWw3RfyNPrHbwqvA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP1=2W57HwcPUBbRjGXbsZ=O-ghrn25yuvEonaHSPUpyGtsMbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJvXt2aj6xY6NyAX673kWPO4SYAgo2zAEXimx_P53KNGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP1=2W6kcNhDGeFuOXuye4kaCWbzw7aJkasUq3sc=3gszMyftQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160729163513.783329dc.barry@wooz.org>
 <f7202f34-3114-5406-ebe0-92380295a9af@msapiro.net>
 <CAP7+vJK4QX9ikMjCb0njpYWOEP-ExnRoaszWw3RfyNPrHbwqvA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b4a8bdeb-c93d-a097-e22f-dcb18828a2fe@msapiro.net>

On 07/31/2016 08:34 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> Steve, could you translate this? Its so full of arcane implementation
> jargon that the only thing i understood was the part about going on a trip.


Let me try again.

Mailman 3 is operational @python.org.

The web UI is at <https://mail.python.org/mm3/>.

There are few MM 3 lists in use @python.org.

There is an overload-sig list with a web UI at
<https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/overload-sig.python.org/>.
The intent is to migrate the Mailman 2.1 overload-sig at python.org list to
the Mailman 3 list, but that isn't done yet.

The Mailman 3 story for user authentication is in flux at the moment
because the generic authentication method is Mozilla Persona which is
going away later this year.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan

From gvanrossum at gmail.com  Sun Jul 31 20:49:42 2016
From: gvanrossum at gmail.com (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 00:49:42 -0000
Subject: [Overload-sig] Testing the MM3 overload-sig
Message-ID: <20160801004942.29022.26869@mail.python.org>

I've just subscribed to the MM3 overload-sig. The archives are empty, presumably because they haven't been migrated from MM2 yet. I'm curious whether this message will appear in the MM3 or the MM2 version of the list -- or both?

--Guido

From gvanrossum at gmail.com  Sun Jul 31 20:51:07 2016
From: gvanrossum at gmail.com (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2016 17:51:07 -0700
Subject: [Overload-sig] Testing the MM3 overload-sig
In-Reply-To: <20160801004942.29022.26869@mail.python.org>
References: <20160801004942.29022.26869@mail.python.org>
Message-ID: <CAP7+vJKJjnwmz8kRa4fNy2B==-GxS9HcjvPikVsvQgE=czp6fQ@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting. I sent this through the MM3 web UI, but apparently what
that form does is just send email to overload-sig at python.org, which is
routed to the MM2 instance. Oh well. Now I know.

On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 5:49 PM, Guido van Rossum <gvanrossum at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've just subscribed to the MM3 overload-sig. The archives are empty, presumably because they haven't been migrated from MM2 yet. I'm curious whether this message will appear in the MM3 or the MM2 version of the list -- or both?
>
> --Guido
> _______________________________________________
> Overload-sig mailing list
> Overload-sig at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/overload-sig



-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)

From guido at python.org  Sun Jul 31 20:54:56 2016
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2016 17:54:56 -0700
Subject: [Overload-sig] where does everything sit?
In-Reply-To: <b4a8bdeb-c93d-a097-e22f-dcb18828a2fe@msapiro.net>
References: <CAP1=2W57HwcPUBbRjGXbsZ=O-ghrn25yuvEonaHSPUpyGtsMbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJvXt2aj6xY6NyAX673kWPO4SYAgo2zAEXimx_P53KNGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP1=2W6kcNhDGeFuOXuye4kaCWbzw7aJkasUq3sc=3gszMyftQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160729163513.783329dc.barry@wooz.org>
 <f7202f34-3114-5406-ebe0-92380295a9af@msapiro.net>
 <CAP7+vJK4QX9ikMjCb0njpYWOEP-ExnRoaszWw3RfyNPrHbwqvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b4a8bdeb-c93d-a097-e22f-dcb18828a2fe@msapiro.net>
Message-ID: <CAP7+vJKWrEUu0X_GcBjd6MRCZ_SGW0SVEp5JEVyNUhL92CbAiA@mail.gmail.com>

OK, thanks! I am anxious to see this list migrated to MM3 -- it's just
a small number of us and the point of the list is mostly to see new
tools in action -- if the transition is a bit rocky that's fine, there
are only a handful of us.

I'm curious why MM3 doesn't let you log in with email and password
directly? What benefit did Mozilla's service have? Was it just that
Mozilla handled password security?

On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 9:05 AM, Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> wrote:
> On 07/31/2016 08:34 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>> Steve, could you translate this? Its so full of arcane implementation
>> jargon that the only thing i understood was the part about going on a trip.
>
>
> Let me try again.
>
> Mailman 3 is operational @python.org.
>
> The web UI is at <https://mail.python.org/mm3/>.
>
> There are few MM 3 lists in use @python.org.
>
> There is an overload-sig list with a web UI at
> <https://mail.python.org/mm3/mailman3/lists/overload-sig.python.org/>.
> The intent is to migrate the Mailman 2.1 overload-sig at python.org list to
> the Mailman 3 list, but that isn't done yet.
>
> The Mailman 3 story for user authentication is in flux at the moment
> because the generic authentication method is Mozilla Persona which is
> going away later this year.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>        The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, California    better use your sense - B. Dylan



-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)