[Numpy-discussion] Introduction to Scott, Jason, and (possibly) others from Enthought

[Travis Oliphant]

On May 25, 2010, at 2:50 PM, Charles R Harris wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Travis Oliphant <oliphant at enthought.com 
> > wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> There has been some talk about re-factoring NumPy to separate out the
> Python C-API layer and make NumPy closer to a C-library.   I know
> there are a few different ideas about what this means, and also that
> people are very busy.  I also know there is a NumPy 2.0 release that
> is in the works.
>
> I'm excited to let everyone know that we (at Enthought) have been able
> to find resources (about 3 man months) to work on this re-factoring
> project and Scott and Jason (both very experienced C and Python
> programmers) are actively pursuing it.    My hope is that NumPy 2.0
> will contain this re-factoring (which should be finished just after
> SciPy 2010 --- where I'm going to organize a Sprint on NumPy which
> will include at least date-time improvements and re-factoring work).
>
> While we have specific goals for the re-factoring, we want this
> activity to be fully integrated with the NumPy community and Scott and
> Jason want to interact with the community as much as feasible as they
> suggest re-factoring changes (though they both have more experience
> with phone-conversations to resolve concerns than email chains and so
> some patience from everybody will be appreciated).
>
> Because Jason and Scott are new to this mailing list (but not new to
> NumPy),  I wanted to introduce them so they would feel more
> comfortable posting questions and people would have some context as to
> what they were trying to do.
>
> Scott and Jason are both very proficient and skilled programmers and I
> have full confidence in their abilities.   That said, we very much
> want the input of as many people as possible as we pursue the goal of
> grouping together more tightly the Python C-API interface layer to
> NumPy.
>
> I will be involved in some of the discussions, but am currently on a
> different project which has tight schedules and so I will only be able
> to provide limited "mailing-list" visibility.
>
>
> I think 2.0 would be a bit early for this. Is there any reason it  
> couldn't be done in 2.1? What is the planned policy with regards to  
> the visible interface for extensions? It would also be nice to have  
> a rough idea of how the resulting code would be layered, i.e., what  
> is the design for this re-factoring. Simply having a design would be  
> a major step forward.

The problem with doing it in 2.1 is that this re-factoring will  
require extensions to be re-built.   The visible interface to  
extensions will not change, but there will likely be ABI  
incompatibility.    It seems prudent to do this in NumPy 2.0.    
Perhaps we can also put in place the ABI-protecting indirection  
approaches that David C. was suggesting earlier.

Some aspects of the design are still being fleshed out, but the basic  
idea is to separate out a core library that is as independent of the  
Python C-API as possible.    There will likely be at least some  
dependency on the Python C-API (reference counting and error handling  
and possibly others) which any interface would have to provide in a  
very simple Python.h -- equivalent, for example.

Our purpose is to allow NumPy to be integrated with other languages or  
other frameworks systems without explicitly relying on CPython.     
There are a lot of questions as to how this will work, and so much of  
that is being worked out.   Part of the reason for this mail is to  
help ensure that as much of this discussion as possible takes place in  
public.

-Travis


>
> In any case, I think the primary goal for 2.0 should remain the  
> python3k port.
>
> Chuck
>
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--
Travis Oliphant
Enthought Inc.
1-512-536-1057
http://www.enthought.com
oliphant at enthought.com





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