[moin-user] moinmoin 2.0 stable release

[Paul Boddie]

On Wednesday, 23 February 2022 05:24:10 CET Lukasz Szybalski wrote:
> Hello,
> I'm writing on behalf of the community to request that effective
> immediately moinmoin 2.0 becomes a stable version and is released as an
> official version moving forward.
> 
> The request does not come easy but we believe it's necessary.
> Below I'll share two points that we all should get behind for the good of
> moinmoin. I hope this email finds all developers and contributes well, and
> we all focus our efforts on providing a conversion path for all of us from
> moin 1.x to 2.x
> 
> First reason why moinmoin 2.0 - Python2 no longer ships with debian stable,
> and as of release its current OS moin was removed. This means unless the
> project converts to moinmoin2 and right away gets added to
> debian-backports, we are at risk of losing a large part of our user base.
> There are number of prominent moinmoin installs, with I think the largest
> one being wiki.debian.org

I think I noted this before, but I would like to know what Debian, the Python 
Software Foundation and others have in mind for their Moin sites. I know that 
the "top table" of the Python community probably doesn't value the Python Wiki 
particularly, although they did fund Moin development when the credentials 
management needed to be strengthened (which was slightly surprising given a 
tendency to otherwise play the happy technology consumer), but given the 
rhetoric about retiring Python 2, I find it disappointing that there is 
nothing to be heard from these organisations that simultaneously depend on 
Python 2 and yet encourage others to sweep it off the desk and into the 
wastebin.

> The second reason why moinmoin 2.0 - Community needs to unify on one task.
> For many years we have been working on moin2.0 while others who continued
> to support moin 1.9. With 2.0 release as stable the moin project takes all
> the developer, contributor, userbase, friendly community that helps others
> moin users and puts all the energy behind one development branch. We hope
> that with 2.0 union we can gain momentum again with making moin the best
> wiki software for technical communities and others.

Here, I largely agree and hope that it doesn't contradict anything I 
previously wrote. :-) There really needs to be a singular focus, and I don't 
think there is any developer interest in continuing with Moin 1.9. Then again, 
I don't see much developer interest in Moin at all, but maybe a clearer 
message would focus some minds once again.

> I would like to ask the group here to do the following:
> - Announce that MoinMoin 2.0 is now stable and moving forward the goto for
> any new installs.
> - Make moinmoin 1.9 "old stable" and put it in maintenance mode. Security
> patches only.

This is pretty much how I perceive Moin 1.9 today. Meanwhile, I guess Moin 2.0 
is stable but not "feature-complete", so that isn't really so different to 
what you are proposing.

> - Request that main moinmoin.in page features a "conversion from 1.9 to 2.0
> page where all sysadmins are able to convert their current instances and
> content to 2.0.
> - I also ask the community to support the conversion efforts, and support
> anyone with helpful guidance on how to do it, the best case copy paste
> guide, and create a smoothest upgrade process.

Isn't there some kind of migration script already? Tangentially, I updated my 
own Moin export tool to handle the deployed filesystem layout of Moin 1.9 
wikis, which I may have mentioned here or to Keith. Sorry if I forgot, Keith! 
:-)

> - We need help from those who have worked on debian.org and can push the
> moinmoin2 to debian backports. Engage, ask for help, and report on
> progress. (They will also need migration instructions or scripts)

Quite some time ago, I did look into Debian packaging for Moin 2.0 and quickly 
became bogged down in all the dependencies that weren't packaged. This is 
another situation where the Python developers have encouraged their own way of 
working largely to the detriment of the broader ecosystem. While people may 
enjoy virtualenvs, venvs, today's new envs, and so on, a reliance on the 
shifting sands of an "agile" but unstable software stack can be a hindrance to 
packaging for a relatively stable system.

I suppose a review of this situation is possible. Debian packaging isn't 
particularly enjoyable, but it is probably the most effective way of bringing 
the software to the right audience.

> Let's join the python3 world and celebrate moinmoin2.0 as our new goto
> version with all the pluses and challenges, and let's unify our community
> towards one branch for the future.

I think that perhaps the most positive thing that could be done is just to 
communicate that Moin is still actively developed. On these mailing lists I 
don't get that impression. (And no, I don't think people should hang out on 
Slack, Gitter or today's messaging fad just to be able to stay informed.)

> Thank you
> Lucas Szybalski
> A 15 year moin host and user who wants moin, the best wiki to continue to
> grow.
> 
> p.s please share to whom it may concern as well and help them convert to 2.x

Thanks for writing this, Lucas!

Paul