From szybalski at gmail.com  Sun Sep 26 20:28:28 2021
From: szybalski at gmail.com (Lukasz Szybalski)
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 19:28:28 -0500
Subject: [moin-user] Moin no longer in debian stable?
In-Reply-To: <CAKkTUv1P55_OFzPWV6KJZXqV=wZGeRe0CFLDAVUNUKLQ61S1Hw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKkTUv1P55_OFzPWV6KJZXqV=wZGeRe0CFLDAVUNUKLQ61S1Hw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKkTUv1sCMmv5k11Gu1yW=ZghtgKPY0-i8KAmH+djQri4RK3Yw@mail.gmail.com>

> Hello,
> I use moinmoin in lucasmanual.com
> I see the package is not in debian stable anymore?
>
> Can someone tell me why not, and what needs to get done to bring it back?
>
> Did something happen? or it failed some dependency:
> I can't seem to find reason in:
> https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/moin
>
> Thanks
> Lucas
>
> --
> http://lucasmanual.com/ <http://lucasmanual.com/blog/>
>


-- 
http://lucasmanual.com/ <http://lucasmanual.com/blog/>
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From steve at einval.com  Mon Sep 27 05:25:16 2021
From: steve at einval.com (Steve McIntyre)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:25:16 +0100
Subject: [moin-user] Moin no longer in debian stable?
In-Reply-To: <CAKkTUv1sCMmv5k11Gu1yW=ZghtgKPY0-i8KAmH+djQri4RK3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKkTUv1P55_OFzPWV6KJZXqV=wZGeRe0CFLDAVUNUKLQ61S1Hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKkTUv1sCMmv5k11Gu1yW=ZghtgKPY0-i8KAmH+djQri4RK3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20210927092516.GI30258@tack.einval.com>

Hi Lukasz!

On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 07:28:28PM -0500, Lukasz Szybalski wrote:
>
>    Hello,
>    I use moinmoin in lucasmanual.com
>    I see the package is not in debian stable anymore?
>
>    Can someone tell me why not, and what needs to get done to bring it back?
>
>    Did something happen? or it failed some dependency:
>    I can't seem to find reason in:
>    https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/moin

Moin 1.x depends on python 2, and python 2 was (mostly!) removed from
Debian before the new stable release (11.0, aka Bullseye). So for now
we're still using moin 1.9 on wiki.debian.org running on top of Debian
10.

For a couple of years now I've been trying to find time to play with /
hack on / contribute to moin 2 as an upgrade path, but it's not
happened yet. :-(

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.                                steve at einval.com
"This dress doesn't reverse." -- Alden Spiess


From szybalski at gmail.com  Mon Sep 27 09:31:25 2021
From: szybalski at gmail.com (Lukasz Szybalski)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 08:31:25 -0500
Subject: [moin-user] Moin no longer in debian stable?
In-Reply-To: <20210927092516.GI30258@tack.einval.com>
References: <CAKkTUv1P55_OFzPWV6KJZXqV=wZGeRe0CFLDAVUNUKLQ61S1Hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKkTUv1sCMmv5k11Gu1yW=ZghtgKPY0-i8KAmH+djQri4RK3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210927092516.GI30258@tack.einval.com>
Message-ID: <CAKkTUv2sfJreFUs3Dsds5g89wik-t54rQh=GvB--W3hLa8Dd6g@mail.gmail.com>

Hello
I know moin 2 has quite few changes.
But if we just run program 2to3 on moin 1.9 ? Does anyone here know if
there would be a dependency that would not work? (Maybe except changing
file open descriptors).


Thanks
Lucas

On Mon, Sep 27, 2021, 4:26 AM Steve McIntyre <steve at einval.com> wrote:

> Hi Lukasz!
>
> On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 07:28:28PM -0500, Lukasz Szybalski wrote:
> >
> >    Hello,
> >    I use moinmoin in lucasmanual.com
> >    I see the package is not in debian stable anymore?
> >
> >    Can someone tell me why not, and what needs to get done to bring it
> back?
> >
> >    Did something happen? or it failed some dependency:
> >    I can't seem to find reason in:
> >    https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/moin
>
> Moin 1.x depends on python 2, and python 2 was (mostly!) removed from
> Debian before the new stable release (11.0, aka Bullseye). So for now
> we're still using moin 1.9 on wiki.debian.org running on top of Debian
> 10.
>
> For a couple of years now I've been trying to find time to play with /
> hack on / contribute to moin 2 as an upgrade path, but it's not
> happened yet. :-(
>
> --
> Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.
> steve at einval.com
> "This dress doesn't reverse." -- Alden Spiess
>
>
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From paul at boddie.org.uk  Mon Sep 27 13:41:57 2021
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 19:41:57 +0200
Subject: [moin-user] Moin no longer in debian stable?
In-Reply-To: <CAKkTUv2sfJreFUs3Dsds5g89wik-t54rQh=GvB--W3hLa8Dd6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKkTUv1P55_OFzPWV6KJZXqV=wZGeRe0CFLDAVUNUKLQ61S1Hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210927092516.GI30258@tack.einval.com>
 <CAKkTUv2sfJreFUs3Dsds5g89wik-t54rQh=GvB--W3hLa8Dd6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3622250.kOBVt7NUuA@jason>

On Monday, 27 September 2021 15:31:25 CEST Lukasz Szybalski wrote:
> Hello
> I know moin 2 has quite few changes.
> But if we just run program 2to3 on moin 1.9 ? Does anyone here know if
> there would be a dependency that would not work? (Maybe except changing
> file open descriptors).

I think that converting Moin 1.9 to Python 3 would be non-trivial. A lot of 
people have described their experiences converting their code from Python 2 to 
Python 3, but there are several pitfalls including the differing string and 
file handling, although the change to lazy iteration in numerous parts of the 
library is the thing that usually causes me surprises.

I was actually corresponding with someone privately about the disappearance of 
Moin 1.9 from Debian (and Ubuntu) due to the Python 2 deprecation strategy, 
and I was wondering how the Debian infrastructure maintainers were planning to 
proceed in future. I joked with someone else that maybe they will use Docker 
to "solve" that problem, like so many people these days.

The one thing that put me off working on Moin 2 was the number of 
dependencies, particularly things that weren't generally packaged. It is 
possible that Moin 2 would be good enough for many people, but there never 
seemed to be a clear strategy in terms of either development or adoption, 
although I imagine this could be reviewed and plans put together.

Meanwhile, certain aspects of Moin 1.9 might be unappealing for anyone trying 
to modernise it. There is a lot of code in it whose equivalents are presumably 
much nicer in Moin 2, and then there are various bundled dependencies like 
Werkzeug whose general structure and design I find annoying: I never got used 
to debugging Moin behaviour involving Werkzeug, whereas the older request 
handling was at least laid out in a predictable way.

There might be an argument for a cut-down version of Moin - either version - 
which keeps everything simple for most deployment needs. A lot of stuff was 
added to Moin over the years, but I can easily imagine that most deployments 
of Moin are now rather defensive and conservative.

It is also tempting to make a workalike wiki solution that can serve Moin 
content and to remedy some of the issues. My own efforts focused on static 
publishing of Moin content because I don't want the hassle of managing a Web 
application when I don't edit through the Web.

However, I could envisage something simple that does through-the-Web editing 
and generates either completely static or dynamic (and cached) output, also 
managing document revisions a bit better, having seen that the separate 
storage of complete page revisions done in Moin 1.9 results in a lot of space 
being taken up.

Anyway, it would be interesting to hear other views about this situation.

Paul



From keithl at kl-ic.com  Mon Sep 27 21:11:54 2021
From: keithl at kl-ic.com (Keith Lofstrom)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 18:11:54 -0700
Subject: [moin-user] Moin no longer in debian stable?
Message-ID: <20210928011154.GB23973@gate.kl-ic.com>

On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 07:28:28PM -0500, Lukasz Szybalski wrote:

>    I use moinmoin in lucasmanual.com
>    I see the package is not in debian stable anymore?
>
>    Can someone tell me why not, and what needs to get done to bring it back?

There is no debian stable moin.moin package anymore,
but with the sage advice of gentleman and scholar Paul
Boddie, there are two workarounds.

Moin 2.0 is somewhere over the rainbow, not available
for practical purposes.  Existing Moin 1.x deployments
will probably need a lot of tweaking to be compatible
with Moin 2.0 (eventually), a process I dread.

Moin 1.x depends on Python 2, which is no longer being
updated - all the Kool Kids are using Python 3.

However - python2 is still available for LTS versions of
Debian, such as the Ubuntu 20.04 LTS distro I am deploying
on my Rimuhosting virtual server.

To make moin 1,x use python2, perhaps all I need to do
is change the first line of  /usr/local/bin/moin 

from #! /usr/bin/python
to   #! /usr/bin/python2

Moin will not install as a debian package, but it can still
be built from "source".  Perhaps we can write simplified
install procedures for our own flavors of Debian.  Perhaps
some clever person can create a .deb package, which we can
share privately.

Gentleman Paul also works on moinlight, a python script
that creates static html web pages out of a deployed
moin instance. 

Though I use moin as my virtual web notebook, I can set
up a moinlight based script to create a separate set of
URLs on my server that serve up static "release" versions
of my work, directing the web searchbots to those.  I also
hope to create archival DVDs with static content on them.

And if Moin 1.x/python 2 develops a critical security flaw,
I can edit on a private server and deploy only static html.

That's all hypothetical for now - I haven't finished
setting up my new server.  However, if we struggle
through this transition together, we can learn from
each other's successes and failures.  I will contribute
plenty of failures ... :-)

Keith

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com