From david at boddie.org.uk  Mon Jun  5 16:47:43 2017
From: david at boddie.org.uk (David Boddie)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 22:47:43 +0200
Subject: [Mobile-sig] Competitors - Kotlin
Message-ID: <201706052247.43961.david@boddie.org.uk>

It seems that there's a certain amount of "buzz" around the Kotlin language
at the moment - or perhaps there has been for a while and I just missed it:

https://kotlinlang.org/

I wouldn't say it's quite as approachable as Python, as the syntax isn't as
clean as one might like:

https://kotlinlang.org/docs/reference/basic-syntax.html

I saw a video recently where the presenter said that it's aimed more at Java
developers and that would certainly explain a few things.

David

From gabriel.pettier at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 19:57:31 2017
From: gabriel.pettier at gmail.com (Gabriel Pettier)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 01:57:31 +0200
Subject: [Mobile-sig] Competitors - Kotlin
In-Reply-To: <201706052247.43961.david@boddie.org.uk>
References: <201706052247.43961.david@boddie.org.uk>
Message-ID: <CAAgF+q6=+8jnORcPp2Uuq0OKLhEX1Ju6Biw_OeiGTK6W35obEQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yep, learned about it watching google io confs, it does have a more ruby
than python feeling to it imho, but certainly an improvement over java, it
targets the jvm/dalvik and google made it a first class citizen on android,
so it might be here to stick, but you never know with new languages.

Le 5 juin 2017 10:48 PM, "David Boddie" <david at boddie.org.uk> a ?crit :

> It seems that there's a certain amount of "buzz" around the Kotlin language
> at the moment - or perhaps there has been for a while and I just missed it:
>
> https://kotlinlang.org/
>
> I wouldn't say it's quite as approachable as Python, as the syntax isn't as
> clean as one might like:
>
> https://kotlinlang.org/docs/reference/basic-syntax.html
>
> I saw a video recently where the presenter said that it's aimed more at
> Java
> developers and that would certainly explain a few things.
>
> David
> _______________________________________________
> Mobile-sig mailing list
> Mobile-sig at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-sig
>
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From dimaqq at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 07:19:36 2017
From: dimaqq at gmail.com (Dima Tisnek)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 13:19:36 +0200
Subject: [Mobile-sig] Competitors - Kotlin
In-Reply-To: <CAAgF+q6=+8jnORcPp2Uuq0OKLhEX1Ju6Biw_OeiGTK6W35obEQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201706052247.43961.david@boddie.org.uk>
 <CAAgF+q6=+8jnORcPp2Uuq0OKLhEX1Ju6Biw_OeiGTK6W35obEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBzXLkWATpve9z2ZYqPPjwNLh61MvYqfm+iim+AAafx+8vNg@mail.gmail.com>

Just wanted to weigh in here.

There's a bunch of JVM languages out there, Java 1.6, 1.7, 8, Clojure,
Groovy, Scala, Ceylon, and now there is Kotlin too. They introduce new
syntax, add a run time library, and ultimately target same run time
and assume/allow for reusing other Java code. Kotlin is neither novel
nor amazing. It will win over it's share of developers, but it's not
nearly as radical as Swift in obj-c world.

Personally, I wouldn't hold my breath for Kotlin, and would rather
place bets on Java 9/10/etc. If the community at large is smart,
they'd appropriate important features into the language, similar to
JavaScript -> ES6 -> ... flow.


There was Jython (evaluated Python bytecode "in Java" at runtime) and
now there's VOC (translates Python bytecode to Java bytecode).

I've been trying out Python on ios using rubicon-objc (shameless plug:
there will be a training session at EuroPython) and here's what I've
learnt:
* access to native libraries / ui / etc is very important
* 2 separate garbage collectors is terrible
* syntax sugar / DSL needed to support callbacks / protocols / interfaces


My ideal would be to keep Python interpreter, runtime, stdlib and
libraries and work to make Python objects also native objects, in
other words to reuse native GC. That would require serious surgery to
expose stack / frame / built-in container references to "system"
garbage collector.

On 7 June 2017 at 01:57, Gabriel Pettier <gabriel.pettier at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yep, learned about it watching google io confs, it does have a more ruby
> than python feeling to it imho, but certainly an improvement over java, it
> targets the jvm/dalvik and google made it a first class citizen on android,
> so it might be here to stick, but you never know with new languages.
>
> Le 5 juin 2017 10:48 PM, "David Boddie" <david at boddie.org.uk> a ?crit :
>>
>> It seems that there's a certain amount of "buzz" around the Kotlin
>> language
>> at the moment - or perhaps there has been for a while and I just missed
>> it:
>>
>> https://kotlinlang.org/
>>
>> I wouldn't say it's quite as approachable as Python, as the syntax isn't
>> as
>> clean as one might like:
>>
>> https://kotlinlang.org/docs/reference/basic-syntax.html
>>
>> I saw a video recently where the presenter said that it's aimed more at
>> Java
>> developers and that would certainly explain a few things.
>>
>> David
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mobile-sig mailing list
>> Mobile-sig at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-sig
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mobile-sig mailing list
> Mobile-sig at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-sig
>

From david at boddie.org.uk  Wed Jun  7 08:56:37 2017
From: david at boddie.org.uk (David Boddie)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 14:56:37 +0200
Subject: [Mobile-sig] Competitors - Kotlin
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBzXLkWATpve9z2ZYqPPjwNLh61MvYqfm+iim+AAafx+8vNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201706052247.43961.david@boddie.org.uk>
 <CAAgF+q6=+8jnORcPp2Uuq0OKLhEX1Ju6Biw_OeiGTK6W35obEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGGBzXLkWATpve9z2ZYqPPjwNLh61MvYqfm+iim+AAafx+8vNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201706071456.38358.david@boddie.org.uk>

On Wednesday 7. June 2017, Dima Tisnek wrote:
> Just wanted to weigh in here.
> 
> There's a bunch of JVM languages out there, Java 1.6, 1.7, 8, Clojure,
> Groovy, Scala, Ceylon, and now there is Kotlin too. They introduce new
> syntax, add a run time library, and ultimately target same run time
> and assume/allow for reusing other Java code. Kotlin is neither novel
> nor amazing. It will win over it's share of developers, but it's not
> nearly as radical as Swift in obj-c world.

Thinking about newer languages from the main players, I wondered if there
was a way to write applications in Dart on Android, and it seems that Flutter
is the thing to look at:

https://flutter.io/

> There was Jython (evaluated Python bytecode "in Java" at runtime) and
> now there's VOC (translates Python bytecode to Java bytecode).

I think VOC is doing source code to Java bytecode now. Russell will correct
one of us, I'm sure. ;-)

David

From russell at keith-magee.com  Wed Jun  7 10:46:51 2017
From: russell at keith-magee.com (Russell Keith-Magee)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 22:46:51 +0800
Subject: [Mobile-sig] Competitors - Kotlin
In-Reply-To: <201706071456.38358.david@boddie.org.uk>
References: <201706052247.43961.david@boddie.org.uk>
 <CAAgF+q6=+8jnORcPp2Uuq0OKLhEX1Ju6Biw_OeiGTK6W35obEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGGBzXLkWATpve9z2ZYqPPjwNLh61MvYqfm+iim+AAafx+8vNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <201706071456.38358.david@boddie.org.uk>
Message-ID: <d40562cd-4298-49fc-9468-c0bbc28cb323@Spark>


On 7 Jun 2017, 8:56 PM +0800, David Boddie <david at boddie.org.uk>, wrote:
> On Wednesday 7. June 2017, Dima Tisnek wrote:
>
> > There was Jython (evaluated Python bytecode "in Java" at runtime) and
> > now there's VOC (translates Python bytecode to Java bytecode).
>
> I think VOC is doing source code to Java bytecode now. Russell will correct
> one of us, I'm sure. ;-)

Correct - VOC does Python source (from the AST) to Java bytecode. My talk at the recent PyCon goes through the details of how it works.

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)
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From david at boddie.org.uk  Tue Jun 13 17:02:11 2017
From: david at boddie.org.uk (David Boddie)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 23:02:11 +0200
Subject: [Mobile-sig] Jython (was Re:  Competitors - Kotlin)
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBzXLkWATpve9z2ZYqPPjwNLh61MvYqfm+iim+AAafx+8vNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201706052247.43961.david@boddie.org.uk>
 <CAAgF+q6=+8jnORcPp2Uuq0OKLhEX1Ju6Biw_OeiGTK6W35obEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGGBzXLkWATpve9z2ZYqPPjwNLh61MvYqfm+iim+AAafx+8vNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201706132302.11850.david@boddie.org.uk>

On Wednesday 7. June 2017, Dima Tisnek wrote:

> There was Jython (evaluated Python bytecode "in Java" at runtime) and
> now there's VOC (translates Python bytecode to Java bytecode).

Sorry I'm a bit late replying to this (again). I'm told that Jython doesn't
work that way - it apparently compiles Python source code to Java bytecode at
run-time, but you can perform compilation ahead of time as well.

I just checked it out from https://hg.python.org/jython and built it, then
used it to run the compileall.py tool:

  ./dist/bin/jython dist/Lib/compileall.py

Lots of class files were generated, but no Python bytecode. I wonder if the
class files could be processed by the Android tools to create Dex bytecode.
I'm not familiar enough with the Android toolchain with its Java heritage to
know how to integrate Jython into it. Maybe parts of the VOC toolchain could
be used to do that.

David

From david at boddie.org.uk  Wed Jun 14 10:28:19 2017
From: david at boddie.org.uk (David Boddie)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2017 16:28:19 +0200
Subject: [Mobile-sig] Jython (was Re:  Competitors - Kotlin)
In-Reply-To: <201706132302.11850.david@boddie.org.uk>
Message-ID: <201706141628.20060.david@boddie.org.uk>

On Tue Jun 13 17:02:11 EDT 2017, I wrote:

> I wonder if the class files could be processed by the Android tools to
> create Dex bytecode. I'm not familiar enough with the Android toolchain
> with its Java heritage to know how to integrate Jython into it. Maybe parts
> of the VOC toolchain could be used to do that.

Watching Russell's video from last year

http://pyvideo.org/pycon-us-2016/russell-keith-magee-a-tale-of-two-cellphones-
python-on-android-and-ios-pycon-2016.html

it seems that Jython requires things that aren't implemented in Android's
version of the Java standard library. However, perhaps there's still scope
for some code reuse between Jython and VOC. :-)

David