From gstein@lyra.org Wed May 31 16:04:20 2000 From: gstein@lyra.org (Greg Stein) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 08:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [Python-Dev] SIG: python-lang In-Reply-To: <3934A8EB.6608B0E1@prescod.net> Message-ID: [ The correct forum is probably meta-sig. ] IMO, I don't see a need for yet another forum. The dividing lines become a bit too blurry, and it will result in questions like "where do I post this?" Or "what is the difference between python-lang@python.org and python-list@python.org?" Cheers, -g On Wed, 31 May 2000, Paul Prescod wrote: > I think that we need a forum somewhere between comp.lang.python and > pythondev. Let's call it python-lang. > > By virtue of being buried on the "sigs" page, python-lang would be > mostly only accessible to those who have more than a cursory interest in > Python. Furthermore, you would have to go through a simple > administration procedure to join, as you do with any mailman list. > > Appropriate topics of python-lang would be new ideas about language > features. Participants would be expected and encouraged to use archives > and FAQs to avoid repetitive topics. Particular verboten would be > "ritual topics": indentation, case sensitivity, integer division, > language comparisions, etc. These discussions would be redirected loudly > and firmly to comp.lang.python. > > Python-dev would remain invitation only but it would focus on the day to > day mechanics of getting new versions of Python out the door. > > -- > Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for himself > "Hardly anything more unwelcome can befall a scientific writer than > having the foundations of his edifice shaken after the work is > finished. I have been placed in this position by a letter from > Mr. Bertrand Russell..." > - Frege, Appendix of Basic Laws of Arithmetic (of Russell's Paradox) > > _______________________________________________ > Python-Dev mailing list > Python-Dev@python.org > http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev > -- Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/ From bwarsaw@python.org Wed May 31 17:43:19 2000 From: bwarsaw@python.org (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 12:43:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [Python-Dev] SIG: python-lang References: <3934A8EB.6608B0E1@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14645.16679.139843.148933@anthem.python.org> >>>>> "GS" == Greg Stein writes: GS> [ The correct forum is probably meta-sig. ] Right, and I've ditched python-dev from the Cc's. GS> IMO, I don't see a need for yet another forum. The dividing GS> lines become a bit too blurry, and it will result in questions GS> like "where do I post this?" Or "what is the difference GS> between python-lang@python.org and python-list@python.org?" I agree. I think anybody who'd be interested in python-lang is already going to be a member of python-dev and any discussion will probably be crossposted to the point where it makes no difference. -Barry From jeremy@beopen.com Wed May 31 18:49:17 2000 From: jeremy@beopen.com (Jeremy Hylton) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:49:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [Python-Dev] SIG: python-lang In-Reply-To: <39353F4B.3E78E22E@prescod.net> References: <39353F4B.3E78E22E@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14645.20637.864287.86178@localhost.localdomain> >>>>> "PP" == Paul Prescod writes: PP> Well, you admit that yhou don't read python-list, right? Most of PP> us don't, most of the time. Instead we have important PP> discussions about the language's future on python-dev, where PP> most of the Python community cannot participate. I'll say it PP> flat out: I'm uncomfortable with that. I did not include PP> meta-sig because (or python-list) because my issue is really PP> with the accidental elitism of the python-dev setup. If PP> python-dev participants do not agree to have important PP> linguistic discussions in an open forum then setting up the PP> forum is a waste of time. That's why I'm feeling people here out PP> first. I agree that there is a problem, but I don't think we'll do any good by setting up another list. There are two parts to the problem. First, we may exclude some people from participating in useful discussions. Second, we miss out on discussions that do take place on c.l.py. I'm actually more worried about the second. It's been a while since I read c.l.py and I'm occasionally disappointed to miss out on seemingly interesting threads. On the other hand, there is no way I could manage to read or even filter the volume on that list. I would welcome a solution that made it easier for people to take occasional sips of c.l.py instead of drinking from the firehose. Thinking out loud: Perhaps a moderated mailing list that represents the python-dev- filtered version of the regular conversation. If the moderation could be distributed efficiently over many people, it might work. Perhaps some variant of Ping's issue tracker could be used to track interesting threads. I'd like to participate more in c.l.py, but I want to second Greg's sentiment: I really value the low noise level on python-dev. I don't want to do anything that jeopardizes that. Jeremy PS There is some noise on python-dev, like that idiot who posted something about car alarms. PPS Or the private emails that spin off of python-dev, like the one where Barry keeps trying to figure out who Gordon meant when he suggested someone didn't have a planet-sized-brain. From jim@digicool.com Wed May 31 19:32:59 2000 From: jim@digicool.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:32:59 -0400 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [Python-Dev] SIG: python-lang References: <39353F4B.3E78E22E@prescod.net> <14645.20637.864287.86178@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <39355ADB.FC1999AF@digicool.com> Jeremy Hylton wrote: > > >>>>> "PP" == Paul Prescod writes: > > PP> Well, you admit that yhou don't read python-list, right? Most of > PP> us don't, most of the time. Instead we have important > PP> discussions about the language's future on python-dev, where > PP> most of the Python community cannot participate. I'll say it > PP> flat out: I'm uncomfortable with that. I did not include > PP> meta-sig because (or python-list) because my issue is really > PP> with the accidental elitism of the python-dev setup. If > PP> python-dev participants do not agree to have important > PP> linguistic discussions in an open forum then setting up the > PP> forum is a waste of time. That's why I'm feeling people here out > PP> first. > > I agree that there is a problem, but I don't think we'll do any good > by setting up another list. There are two parts to the problem. > First, we may exclude some people from participating in useful > discussions. Second, we miss out on discussions that do take place on > c.l.py. > > I'm actually more worried about the second. It's been a while since I > read c.l.py and I'm occasionally disappointed to miss out on > seemingly interesting threads. On the other hand, there is no way I > could manage to read or even filter the volume on that list. I'm even worse. I don't even have time to filter Python-Dev. :( (I just bought more memory for my Palm so that I can download the archives and read them in spare moments ..... Waaaaaa) > I would welcome a solution that made it easier for people to take > occasional sips of c.l.py instead of drinking from the firehose. > Thinking out loud: Perhaps a moderated mailing list that represents > the python-dev- filtered version of the regular conversation. If the > moderation could be distributed efficiently over many people, it might > work. Perhaps some variant of Ping's issue tracker could be used to > track interesting threads. I'm extremely hopeful about something called Wiki. Rather than being based on a model of threaded discusssions, which tend to become overwhelming. With limited time, it's really hard, at least for me, to extract the signal from the noize in a large thread. Wiki is based on shared colaboratively written documents. See http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki and http://joyful.com/zwiki/FrontPage. There are alot of Wiki implementations and we are working pretty hard to make Zope's (ZWiki, a Wiki clone written by Simon Michael, who, BTW, is not a DC employee :) one of the best. We are doing this because we are relying heavily on Wikis to coordinate Zope development (e.g. http://www.zope.org/WikiCentral/FrontPage). It's wild and wacky, but amazingly productive (although it can be improved and will be). Check it out. I think that Wikis could help the Python community alot. It's at least something to keep an eye on. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@digicool.com Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332 http://www.python.org Digital Creations http://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. From DavidA@ActiveState.com Wed May 31 19:53:30 2000 From: DavidA@ActiveState.com (David Ascher) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:53:30 -0700 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [Python-Dev] SIG: python-lang In-Reply-To: <39355ADB.FC1999AF@digicool.com> Message-ID: > I'm extremely hopeful about something called Wiki. My problem with wikis (although we are using some ZWikis in-house) is that it doesnt' go through email, which is how i get all my news. I'm also not sure if we collectively have the work habits required to use wikis as we've learned to use email. with an email archive, one can track the development of ideas, and arguments, and 'catch up'. With wikis, one is left with the state of things as they are now. Jim, in your spare time =), could you summarize _how_ you folks at DC use wikis? How do you decide what to read? How do you deal with a wiki after you've been away from it for a while? (The RecentChanges page is only a crutch in some ways). How do you evolve wikis? How do you tell people about changes you want them to know about (the equivalent of cc: guido@python.org)? Just for everyone's information, I use wikis to store 'notes'. Things that people arrive at during the development process, a place to share URLs and other tidbits which don't fit into a neat structure like a shared filesystem. It's a fairly different use from dealing with the general discussions which are currently done on mailing lists/newsgroups. I agree that there's a problem, and wikis are enticing, but I haven't figured out how best to use them yet. --david From jim@digicool.com Wed May 31 22:06:46 2000 From: jim@digicool.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 17:06:46 -0400 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [Python-Dev] SIG: python-lang References: Message-ID: <39357EE6.BBD276C1@digicool.com> David Ascher wrote: > > > I'm extremely hopeful about something called Wiki. > > My problem with wikis (although we are using some ZWikis in-house) is that > it doesnt' go through email, which is how i get all my news. I'm also not > sure if we collectively have the work habits required to use wikis as we've > learned to use email. with an email archive, one can track the development > of ideas, and arguments, and 'catch up'. For me, this is just waaaay to expensive. > With wikis, one is left with the > state of things as they are now. Not necessarily. Some wikis (soon ZWiki) provide a historical record. I've heard that one of the best-regarded wiki implementation is a perl-based Wiki that provides two things that ZWiki currently lacks: - History, - Notification We are working on both of these. Maybe email notification of changes would partially address your email usage patterns. > Jim, in your spare time =), could you summarize _how_ you folks at DC use > wikis? We are using them to collaboratively create and manage: - Project information: o Vision statements o Use Cases o Architecture and Design artifacts - Change proposals - Interfaces - Problem discussion > How do you decide what to read? I read whatever I'm interested in. Usually, this is motivated by specific projects or initiatives, or by someone asking/nagging me to review something. > How do you deal with a wiki after > you've been away from it for a while? (The RecentChanges page is only a > crutch in some ways). Well, right now, this is harder than it should be. I currently scan the pages of interest. Soon we'll have CVS-ish capabilities. Wiki pages will have a "History" interface where you can see the history of changes made, view individual revisions and view differences. (I used Tim Peter's ndiff module. :) > How do you evolve wikis? Ultimately, someone has to exert editorial input. Anyone can do this, but usually, someone with some level of authority does this. Typically, people will make minor corrections or clarifications directly. Substantive questions or comments are added as notes. We use the StructuredText idiom: jim -- bla blah blah blah which stands out nicely and provides some nesting. Eventually questions or comments may be: - Addressed and merged into the text (ie a suggestion is implemented or a clarification is made based on the question). - Left where they are as part of the hysterical record, - Moved to a separate comments page (or to the end of a wiki page) > How do you tell people > about changes you want them to know about (the equivalent of cc: > guido@python.org)? Currently, we often send people short notes with URLs to Wiki pages. This works well for notifying people who wouldn't otherwise be paying attention. For example, I did this on Python-Dev a few weeks back when asking about binary pickles. We plan to provide the ability to subscribe to changes in Wiki pages (and maybe wiki sites). > Just for everyone's information, I use wikis to store 'notes'. Things that > people arrive at during the development process, a place to share URLs and > other tidbits which don't fit into a neat structure like a shared > filesystem. It's a fairly different use from dealing with the general > discussions which are currently done on mailing lists/newsgroups. > > I agree that there's a problem, and wikis are enticing, but I haven't > figured out how best to use them yet. Well, you might pay attention to what we do in the Zope wikis. This is definately a work in progress, from both a technology and culture point of view. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@digicool.com Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332 http://www.python.org Digital Creations http://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. From klm@digicool.com Wed May 31 22:25:36 2000 From: klm@digicool.com (Ken Manheimer) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 17:25:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [Python-Dev] SIG: python-lang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000, David Ascher wrote: > Jim, in your spare time =), could you summarize _how_ you folks at DC use > wikis? How do you decide what to read? How do you deal with a wiki after > you've been away from it for a while? (The RecentChanges page is only a > crutch in some ways). How do you evolve wikis? How do you tell people > about changes you want them to know about (the equivalent of cc: > guido@python.org)? I can describe what we're doing with wikis for a consulting project i'm involved in here. We use wikis, a mailing list, and an issue tracker in concert to collaborate with our clients. The wiki is used for accumulating and organizing development information - from technical info like use cases and domain research to project plans, schedules, personnel info and tasks. Sort of a progressively growing, extensive notebook - with many folks contributing to the notes. From the start we loved that we could put things in some reasonable place, but as it grew we had increasing difficulty keeping track of what's where - finding our way back to stuff put in, even stuff we put in ourselves - and also chafed from losing track of changes. I implemented a simple, wikish extension for hierarchical organization of pages (and spent some serious effort retroactively culling and arranging the 100 or more existing pages into the framework) that was surprisingly successful - i think everyone found it much easier to find their way around, and our client showed a lot more confidence using the wiki, not just by navigating what we put in, but by starting to carve out regions of the wiki for themselves. For an example of the structuring stuff, visit http://www.zope.org/Members/klm/TrackerWiki - all the wikis on zope.org incorporate it, and the latest zwiki product from simon michael includes it, exposed in one of the alternate zwiki skins. The notification issue has *not* been solved, but we're working on it. Tres and some other folks are developing an observer-pattern-based event-propagation system for zope - which will be quite useful for delivering notifications on wiki (and other object) updates. See http://www.zope.org/Members/michel/Projects/Interfaces/ObserverAndNotification (In the meanwhile, what happens in our consulting wiki is that people tell eachother about important updates - in the course of a conversation, direct email, or sometimes the mailing list, if it's of general interest.) That ain't all. Another big concern with wiki-style development of pages is retrospective information - not just that the page changed, but *how* it changed. This can be as important as the change notification! Jim just finished refining the ZODB to make object version information available, and incorporated tim peter's ndiff module - so, for suitable objects, it's easy to get at the change history. ! Maybe in not too long we'll be able to distinguish lines according to who contributed them, how they changed, etc. ! (I think jim's going to post something saying more about all this.) Personally, i think that wiki has some prime lessons in KISS approaches to content management - the wiki gesture to indicate pages, and create them, the wiki flavor of structured text rather than html to create content (i think our structured text improves on that), heightened significance (as search targets and page-creation tokens) to the names of pages and bi-directional navigation of links between them (backlinks - enhanced by my parent/child characteristics), etc. I suspect that we're going to be exploiting, generalizing, and *extending* these principles in zope, coming up with easier (KISS) ways to do more. Whee! (I'm excited about this, can you tell?-) Ken Manheimer klm@digicool.com From gstein@lyra.org Wed May 31 16:04:20 2000 From: gstein@lyra.org (Greg Stein) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 08:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [Python-Dev] SIG: python-lang In-Reply-To: <3934A8EB.6608B0E1@prescod.net> Message-ID: [ The correct forum is probably meta-sig. ] IMO, I don't see a need for yet another forum. The dividing lines become a bit too blurry, and it will result in questions like "where do I post this?" Or "what is the difference between python-lang@python.org and python-list@python.org?" Cheers, -g On Wed, 31 May 2000, Paul Prescod wrote: > I think that we need a forum somewhere between comp.lang.python and > pythondev. Let's call it python-lang. > > By virtue of being buried on the "sigs" page, python-lang would be > mostly only accessible to those who have more than a cursory interest in > Python. Furthermore, you would have to go through a simple > administration procedure to join, as you do with any mailman list. > > Appropriate topics of python-lang would be new ideas about language > features. Participants would be expected and encouraged to use archives > and FAQs to avoid repetitive topics. Particular verboten would be > "ritual topics": indentation, case sensitivity, integer division, > language comparisions, etc. These discussions would be redirected loudly > and firmly to comp.lang.python. > > Python-dev would remain invitation only but it would focus on the day to > day mechanics of getting new versions of Python out the door. > > -- > Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for himself > "Hardly anything more unwelcome can befall a scientific writer than > having the foundations of his edifice shaken after the work is > finished. I have been placed in this position by a letter from > Mr. Bertrand Russell..." > - Frege, Appendix of Basic Laws of Arithmetic (of Russell's Paradox) > > _______________________________________________ > Python-Dev mailing list > Python-Dev@python.org > http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev > -- Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/ From bwarsaw@python.org Wed May 31 17:43:19 2000 From: bwarsaw@python.org (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 12:43:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [Python-Dev] SIG: python-lang References: <3934A8EB.6608B0E1@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14645.16679.139843.148933@anthem.python.org> >>>>> "GS" == Greg Stein writes: GS> [ The correct forum is probably meta-sig. ] Right, and I've ditched python-dev from the Cc's. GS> IMO, I don't see a need for yet another forum. The dividing GS> lines become a bit too blurry, and it will result in questions GS> like "where do I post this?" Or "what is the difference GS> between python-lang@python.org and python-list@python.org?" I agree. I think anybody who'd be interested in python-lang is already going to be a member of python-dev and any discussion will probably be crossposted to the point where it makes no difference. -Barry From jeremy@beopen.com Wed May 31 18:49:17 2000 From: jeremy@beopen.com (Jeremy Hylton) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:49:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [Python-Dev] SIG: python-lang In-Reply-To: <39353F4B.3E78E22E@prescod.net> References: <39353F4B.3E78E22E@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14645.20637.864287.86178@localhost.localdomain> >>>>> "PP" == Paul Prescod writes: PP> Well, you admit that yhou don't read python-list, right? Most of PP> us don't, most of the time. Instead we have important PP> discussions about the language's future on python-dev, where PP> most of the Python community cannot participate. I'll say it PP> flat out: I'm uncomfortable with that. I did not include PP> meta-sig because (or python-list) because my issue is really PP> with the accidental elitism of the python-dev setup. If PP> python-dev participants do not agree to have important PP> linguistic discussions in an open forum then setting up the PP> forum is a waste of time. That's why I'm feeling people here out PP> first. I agree that there is a problem, but I don't think we'll do any good by setting up another list. There are two parts to the problem. First, we may exclude some people from participating in useful discussions. Second, we miss out on discussions that do take place on c.l.py. I'm actually more worried about the second. It's been a while since I read c.l.py and I'm occasionally disappointed to miss out on seemingly interesting threads. On the other hand, there is no way I could manage to read or even filter the volume on that list. I would welcome a solution that made it easier for people to take occasional sips of c.l.py instead of drinking from the firehose. Thinking out loud: Perhaps a moderated mailing list that represents the python-dev- filtered version of the regular conversation. If the moderation could be distributed efficiently over many people, it might work. Perhaps some variant of Ping's issue tracker could be used to track interesting threads. I'd like to participate more in c.l.py, but I want to second Greg's sentiment: I really value the low noise level on python-dev. I don't want to do anything that jeopardizes that. Jeremy PS There is some noise on python-dev, like that idiot who posted something about car alarms. PPS Or the private emails that spin off of python-dev, like the one where Barry keeps trying to figure out who Gordon meant when he suggested someone didn't have a planet-sized-brain. From jim@digicool.com Wed May 31 19:32:59 2000 From: jim@digicool.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:32:59 -0400 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [Python-Dev] SIG: python-lang References: <39353F4B.3E78E22E@prescod.net> <14645.20637.864287.86178@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <39355ADB.FC1999AF@digicool.com> Jeremy Hylton wrote: > > >>>>> "PP" == Paul Prescod writes: > > PP> Well, you admit that yhou don't read python-list, right? Most of > PP> us don't, most of the time. Instead we have important > PP> discussions about the language's future on python-dev, where > PP> most of the Python community cannot participate. I'll say it > PP> flat out: I'm uncomfortable with that. I did not include > PP> meta-sig because (or python-list) because my issue is really > PP> with the accidental elitism of the python-dev setup. If > PP> python-dev participants do not agree to have important > PP> linguistic discussions in an open forum then setting up the > PP> forum is a waste of time. That's why I'm feeling people here out > PP> first. > > I agree that there is a problem, but I don't think we'll do any good > by setting up another list. There are two parts to the problem. > First, we may exclude some people from participating in useful > discussions. Second, we miss out on discussions that do take place on > c.l.py. > > I'm actually more worried about the second. It's been a while since I > read c.l.py and I'm occasionally disappointed to miss out on > seemingly interesting threads. On the other hand, there is no way I > could manage to read or even filter the volume on that list. I'm even worse. I don't even have time to filter Python-Dev. :( (I just bought more memory for my Palm so that I can download the archives and read them in spare moments ..... Waaaaaa) > I would welcome a solution that made it easier for people to take > occasional sips of c.l.py instead of drinking from the firehose. > Thinking out loud: Perhaps a moderated mailing list that represents > the python-dev- filtered version of the regular conversation. If the > moderation could be distributed efficiently over many people, it might > work. Perhaps some variant of Ping's issue tracker could be used to > track interesting threads. I'm extremely hopeful about something called Wiki. Rather than being based on a model of threaded discusssions, which tend to become overwhelming. With limited time, it's really hard, at least for me, to extract the signal from the noize in a large thread. Wiki is based on shared colaboratively written documents. See http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki and http://joyful.com/zwiki/FrontPage. There are alot of Wiki implementations and we are working pretty hard to make Zope's (ZWiki, a Wiki clone written by Simon Michael, who, BTW, is not a DC employee :) one of the best. We are doing this because we are relying heavily on Wikis to coordinate Zope development (e.g. http://www.zope.org/WikiCentral/FrontPage). It's wild and wacky, but amazingly productive (although it can be improved and will be). Check it out. I think that Wikis could help the Python community alot. It's at least something to keep an eye on. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@digicool.com Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332 http://www.python.org Digital Creations http://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. From DavidA@ActiveState.com Wed May 31 19:53:30 2000 From: DavidA@ActiveState.com (David Ascher) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:53:30 -0700 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [Python-Dev] SIG: python-lang In-Reply-To: <39355ADB.FC1999AF@digicool.com> Message-ID: > I'm extremely hopeful about something called Wiki. My problem with wikis (although we are using some ZWikis in-house) is that it doesnt' go through email, which is how i get all my news. I'm also not sure if we collectively have the work habits required to use wikis as we've learned to use email. with an email archive, one can track the development of ideas, and arguments, and 'catch up'. With wikis, one is left with the state of things as they are now. Jim, in your spare time =), could you summarize _how_ you folks at DC use wikis? How do you decide what to read? How do you deal with a wiki after you've been away from it for a while? (The RecentChanges page is only a crutch in some ways). How do you evolve wikis? How do you tell people about changes you want them to know about (the equivalent of cc: guido@python.org)? Just for everyone's information, I use wikis to store 'notes'. Things that people arrive at during the development process, a place to share URLs and other tidbits which don't fit into a neat structure like a shared filesystem. It's a fairly different use from dealing with the general discussions which are currently done on mailing lists/newsgroups. I agree that there's a problem, and wikis are enticing, but I haven't figured out how best to use them yet. --david From jim@digicool.com Wed May 31 22:06:46 2000 From: jim@digicool.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 17:06:46 -0400 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [Python-Dev] SIG: python-lang References: Message-ID: <39357EE6.BBD276C1@digicool.com> David Ascher wrote: > > > I'm extremely hopeful about something called Wiki. > > My problem with wikis (although we are using some ZWikis in-house) is that > it doesnt' go through email, which is how i get all my news. I'm also not > sure if we collectively have the work habits required to use wikis as we've > learned to use email. with an email archive, one can track the development > of ideas, and arguments, and 'catch up'. For me, this is just waaaay to expensive. > With wikis, one is left with the > state of things as they are now. Not necessarily. Some wikis (soon ZWiki) provide a historical record. I've heard that one of the best-regarded wiki implementation is a perl-based Wiki that provides two things that ZWiki currently lacks: - History, - Notification We are working on both of these. Maybe email notification of changes would partially address your email usage patterns. > Jim, in your spare time =), could you summarize _how_ you folks at DC use > wikis? We are using them to collaboratively create and manage: - Project information: o Vision statements o Use Cases o Architecture and Design artifacts - Change proposals - Interfaces - Problem discussion > How do you decide what to read? I read whatever I'm interested in. Usually, this is motivated by specific projects or initiatives, or by someone asking/nagging me to review something. > How do you deal with a wiki after > you've been away from it for a while? (The RecentChanges page is only a > crutch in some ways). Well, right now, this is harder than it should be. I currently scan the pages of interest. Soon we'll have CVS-ish capabilities. Wiki pages will have a "History" interface where you can see the history of changes made, view individual revisions and view differences. (I used Tim Peter's ndiff module. :) > How do you evolve wikis? Ultimately, someone has to exert editorial input. Anyone can do this, but usually, someone with some level of authority does this. Typically, people will make minor corrections or clarifications directly. Substantive questions or comments are added as notes. We use the StructuredText idiom: jim -- bla blah blah blah which stands out nicely and provides some nesting. Eventually questions or comments may be: - Addressed and merged into the text (ie a suggestion is implemented or a clarification is made based on the question). - Left where they are as part of the hysterical record, - Moved to a separate comments page (or to the end of a wiki page) > How do you tell people > about changes you want them to know about (the equivalent of cc: > guido@python.org)? Currently, we often send people short notes with URLs to Wiki pages. This works well for notifying people who wouldn't otherwise be paying attention. For example, I did this on Python-Dev a few weeks back when asking about binary pickles. We plan to provide the ability to subscribe to changes in Wiki pages (and maybe wiki sites). > Just for everyone's information, I use wikis to store 'notes'. Things that > people arrive at during the development process, a place to share URLs and > other tidbits which don't fit into a neat structure like a shared > filesystem. It's a fairly different use from dealing with the general > discussions which are currently done on mailing lists/newsgroups. > > I agree that there's a problem, and wikis are enticing, but I haven't > figured out how best to use them yet. Well, you might pay attention to what we do in the Zope wikis. This is definately a work in progress, from both a technology and culture point of view. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@digicool.com Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332 http://www.python.org Digital Creations http://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. From klm@digicool.com Wed May 31 22:25:36 2000 From: klm@digicool.com (Ken Manheimer) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 17:25:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [Python-Dev] SIG: python-lang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 May 2000, David Ascher wrote: > Jim, in your spare time =), could you summarize _how_ you folks at DC use > wikis? How do you decide what to read? How do you deal with a wiki after > you've been away from it for a while? (The RecentChanges page is only a > crutch in some ways). How do you evolve wikis? How do you tell people > about changes you want them to know about (the equivalent of cc: > guido@python.org)? I can describe what we're doing with wikis for a consulting project i'm involved in here. We use wikis, a mailing list, and an issue tracker in concert to collaborate with our clients. The wiki is used for accumulating and organizing development information - from technical info like use cases and domain research to project plans, schedules, personnel info and tasks. Sort of a progressively growing, extensive notebook - with many folks contributing to the notes. From the start we loved that we could put things in some reasonable place, but as it grew we had increasing difficulty keeping track of what's where - finding our way back to stuff put in, even stuff we put in ourselves - and also chafed from losing track of changes. I implemented a simple, wikish extension for hierarchical organization of pages (and spent some serious effort retroactively culling and arranging the 100 or more existing pages into the framework) that was surprisingly successful - i think everyone found it much easier to find their way around, and our client showed a lot more confidence using the wiki, not just by navigating what we put in, but by starting to carve out regions of the wiki for themselves. For an example of the structuring stuff, visit http://www.zope.org/Members/klm/TrackerWiki - all the wikis on zope.org incorporate it, and the latest zwiki product from simon michael includes it, exposed in one of the alternate zwiki skins. The notification issue has *not* been solved, but we're working on it. Tres and some other folks are developing an observer-pattern-based event-propagation system for zope - which will be quite useful for delivering notifications on wiki (and other object) updates. See http://www.zope.org/Members/michel/Projects/Interfaces/ObserverAndNotification (In the meanwhile, what happens in our consulting wiki is that people tell eachother about important updates - in the course of a conversation, direct email, or sometimes the mailing list, if it's of general interest.) That ain't all. Another big concern with wiki-style development of pages is retrospective information - not just that the page changed, but *how* it changed. This can be as important as the change notification! Jim just finished refining the ZODB to make object version information available, and incorporated tim peter's ndiff module - so, for suitable objects, it's easy to get at the change history. ! Maybe in not too long we'll be able to distinguish lines according to who contributed them, how they changed, etc. ! (I think jim's going to post something saying more about all this.) Personally, i think that wiki has some prime lessons in KISS approaches to content management - the wiki gesture to indicate pages, and create them, the wiki flavor of structured text rather than html to create content (i think our structured text improves on that), heightened significance (as search targets and page-creation tokens) to the names of pages and bi-directional navigation of links between them (backlinks - enhanced by my parent/child characteristics), etc. I suspect that we're going to be exploiting, generalizing, and *extending* these principles in zope, coming up with easier (KISS) ways to do more. Whee! (I'm excited about this, can you tell?-) Ken Manheimer klm@digicool.com