From Dinu Gherman Thu Mar 13 17:53:42 1997 From: Dinu Gherman (Dinu Gherman) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 97 18:53:42 +0100 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] proposal for PATTERN-SIG mission statement In-Reply-To: <199703131600.LAA02324@weyr.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> References: <199703131600.LAA02324@weyr.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> Message-ID: <199703131753.RAA01168@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Fred L. Drake wrote: > I'd also remove the word "other" in any case; that implies that > Python is also a "bastardized version of (so-called) object-oriented > scripted language;" not the impression we're shooting for, and not > terribly accurate either! ;-) Well, you're right, of course. A more polite form would be perfectly in order. Grammatically, though, this could be elegantly solved by inserting a comma after 'other', I be- lieve (native speakers, correct me, please), yielding the following: "... than any other, bastardized version of (so-called) object-oriented scripted languages." Of course, I am not insisting on this solution... ;-) Dinu _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From fdrake@CNRI.Reston.Va.US Thu Mar 13 18:55:04 1997 From: fdrake@CNRI.Reston.Va.US (Fred L. Drake) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:55:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] proposal for PATTERN-SIG mission statement In-Reply-To: <199703131753.RAA01168@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> from "Dinu Gherman" at Mar 13, 97 06:53:42 pm Message-ID: <199703131855.NAA03035@weyr.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> Dinu Gherman wrote: > > Well, you're right, of course. A more polite form would be Well, sometimes. > perfectly in order. Grammatically, though, this could be > elegantly solved by inserting a comma after 'other', I be- > lieve (native speakers, correct me, please), yielding the > following: > > "... than any other, bastardized version of (so-called) > object-oriented scripted languages." I think I'd prefer "... than other object-oriented scripting languages" and just leave it. Non-technical commentary on other languages should be left for Advocacy-SIG. ;-) Seriously, I'd keep it simple and to-the-point. The SIGs I follow seem to be doing fine with their self-moderating status, so there's little point in making clear what the SIG isn't for as long as what it is for is explained. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. fdrake@cnri.reston.va.us Corporation for National Research Initiatives 1895 Preston White Drive Reston, VA 20191-5434 _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From Dinu Gherman Fri Mar 14 11:39:55 1997 From: Dinu Gherman (Dinu Gherman) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 12:39:55 +0100 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] proposal for PATTERN-SIG mission statement In-Reply-To: <199703131855.NAA03035@weyr.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> References: <199703131855.NAA03035@weyr.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> Message-ID: <199703141139.LAA03149@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Fred wrote: > I think I'd prefer "... than other object-oriented scripting > languages" and just leave it. Non-technical commentary on other > languages should be left for Advocacy-SIG. ;-) As I said, no problem! I hope there will be some more comments on the proposal's content. I'm not sure how this will go on and how you, the PSA will adopt a new sig or not, or if there is a formal procedure or not. If it is formal to whatever degree I'd like to point you to a tiny e-voting tool I've written recently, where I could add a simple poll anytime. It's far from being finished, but might be of certain use in some near future. Is there something similar, done in Python? Would that be useful for the PSA in general? Well, give it a try by adding "WebVote/" to my home below. Regards, Dinu --- Dinu C. Gherman http://www.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/gherman/ EMBL http://www.embl-heidelberg.de/ Heidelberg http://www.germany.eu.net/shop/Heidelberg.info.cvb/ _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From fredrik_lundh@ivab.se Fri Mar 14 13:24:16 1997 From: fredrik_lundh@ivab.se (Fredrik Lundh) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 14:24:16 +0100 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] proposal for PATTERN-SIG mission statement In-Reply-To: <199703141139.LAA03149@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> (message from Dinu Gherman on Fri, 14 Mar 97 12:39:55 +0100) Message-ID: <9703141324.AA05778@arnold.image.ivab.se> > If it is formal to whatever degree I'd like to point you to a tiny > e-voting tool I've written recently, where I could add a simple poll > anytime. Shouldn't be necessary, shouldn't it? Unless the folks on the meta-sig objects, I'm sure Barry will take care of the necessary "paperwork" as soon as possible. Or? (Hmm. I didn't notice that clause about bastardized languages the first time I read it. I better take another look ;-) Cheers /F (http://hem1.passagen.se/eff) _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From Dinu Gherman Thu Mar 20 13:59:47 1997 From: Dinu Gherman (Dinu Gherman) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 14:59:47 +0100 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] proposal for PATTERN-SIG mission statement In-Reply-To: <199703131208.MAA29931@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> References: <199703131208.MAA29931@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Message-ID: <199703201359.NAA20889@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Hello all, I just want to make sure the growing pattern community is not forgotten by the PSA. What's the state of affairs concerning the formation of an official PATTERN-SIG? Note that I am not pressing anybody to take action, but a few of us have started chatting on the base of mail aliases and we discovered a tool which seems most appropriate to organize our efforts. It's the well known BSCW developed by Richard Bentley et al. at GMD. There will be a new release, soon, and I made a lengthy wish list of things I'd like to see in the next version. Right now, I am still evaluating it and trying to find a place for such a server. I guess Christian Tismer might like to put it on his flagship, but I am not sure. I am not so familiar with establishing a Python SIG so you might well say, "hey, you did not know it will take you forever?" Well, I am exaggerating ;-), sorry! Still, if you feel like, I'd be happy if you dropped me a line. Cheers, Dinu _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From Barry A. Warsaw" <199703201359.NAA20889@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Message-ID: <199703212255.RAA00468@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> Establishing a SIG is really a pretty informal affair. For better or worse, it is a non-insignificant amount of work for me to create all the Majordomo and sendmail mess to get the SIG going, so I really like to do it for those SIGs that have a clear mission in life. Dinu, I read your mission statement and I think it's a good first shot. However, I think you can both trim it down and state clearly what it is you hope to accomplish with the SIG. You probably don't need much of the text that describes/justifies Python -- I think that's a given. Ideally the mission statement should fit on one "page". And I had a hard time understanding what exactly it is you want to accomplish with the SIG; e.g. what are it's deliverables? IMO, the most successful SIGs have had a clear, limited mission. The more amorphous it is, the less successful. If you're just looking for a convenient forum for discussion patterns in Python programming, I'd ask why you think the general newsgroup is not appropriate? Do you think this area will generate that much traffic? Do you think the results are of limited interest to the Python community at large? What would make me more enthusiastic about the SIG (I'm already enthusiastic about the subject matter!) would be to see a list of what you want to produce. E.g. "The PatternSIG will collect and collate common programming patterns, idioms, and tricks 'o the trade, of general use to the Python community. Its mission is to produce a set of well-indexed Web pages that Python programmers can use as reference material for their own projects." -Barry _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From Dinu Gherman Mon Mar 24 13:09:12 1997 From: Dinu Gherman (Dinu Gherman) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 97 14:09:12 +0100 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] proposal for PATTERN-SIG mission statement In-Reply-To: <199703212255.RAA00468@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> References: <199703131208.MAA29931@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <199703201359.NAA20889@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <199703212255.RAA00468@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> Message-ID: <199703241309.NAA02480@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Barry wrote: > Dinu, I read your mission statement and I think it's a good first > shot. However, I think you can both trim it down and state clearly > what it is you hope to accomplish with the SIG. [...] Barry, you're completely right of course! I thought of the first draft as too much of a thing to be used also for non-Pythoneers. I still think this is not superfluous, but indeed it's not appropriate as the *list's* mission statement. Sorry. > If you're just looking for a convenient forum for discussion patterns > in Python programming, I'd ask why you think the general newsgroup is > not appropriate? Do you think this area will generate that much > traffic? Do you think the results are of limited interest to the > Python community at large? Well, PATTERN-SIG should not only be a discussion forum. Ideally it would be a virtual place to collect and refine code and design experience / knowledge and provide it to all those interested. I think the BSCW tool is very appropriate as a means to that end and I'd like to invite anybody interested to play a little with a demo I've installed on my machine. Just send me a mail. I have not succeeded yet in making it work for anonymous users. Then, yes, I think this SIG could be quite useful to all those on c.l.p, but also, yes, I do have the impression that the newsgroup is to heavy already and would certainly benefit from a modest split into something like comp.lang.python.{announce, advocacy, language, programmer, software}, but that's a different story, of course. First I thought of posting PATTERN-SIG reports on c.l.p, but I don't really think anymore that would work. Summing up, I think the mailing list is just what we need to focus on our topic and a virtual repository for collecting and developing the stuff we're concerned about is the other. In the end we might need something simpler like plain web pages to present the collected material, but I think this is not in sight on ultra-short term. In the beginning BSCW with anonymous users added will do. > What would make me more enthusiastic about the SIG (I'm already > enthusiastic about the subject matter!) would be to see a list of what > you want to produce. E.g. "The PatternSIG will collect and collate > common programming patterns, idioms, and tricks 'o the trade, of > general use to the Python community. Its mission is to produce a set > of well-indexed Web pages that Python programmers can use as reference > material for their own projects." That's exactly where I'd like to see us moving to. ;-) Ok. I'll write it up more concisely and re-submit it to this list, soon. Thanks for the comments! Dinu _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From Barry A. Warsaw" <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> Message-ID: <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> >>>>> "MAL" == M -A Lemburg writes: MAL> Could you or Barry be more specific with regard to the PSAs MAL> objection to create a SIG for patterns, idioms and frameworks MAL> ? My personal objection was that the mission for the SIG is too vague. My own model of a SIG is as a working group. I don't think SIGs that are used as a general forum for discussion are as successful as those that are created with specific deliverables in mind -- the SIG as working group; e.g. MatrixSIG, Objective-C-SIG, StringSIG, PythonWIN-SIG, DocumentationSIG. These are all formed to _produce_ something and so the discussions are most likely not of general interest to the list (as opposed to the products of those working groups). Second, because I think any discussion that would take place on PatternSIG can be of general interest to the Python audience at large, and because SIGs by their nature aren't going to be as widely dispersed as the newsgroup/main mailing list, I think at this time, a PatternSIG unnecessarily segregates the Python community. I'd much rather see the you guys start talking about this stuff on the main mailing list. Then we can start a SIG when there are well-defined deliverables (which could be, e.g. Web pages of Python patterns/idioms), or when the sustained traffic proves to be disruptive to the main list. MAL> [Looks like, PSA membership isn't good for anything after MAL> all...] I don't know why you say this. -Barry _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de Thu Mar 27 18:43:39 1997 From: lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de (Marc-Andre Lemburg) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 19:43:39 +0100 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: pattern-sig -- tired of waiting... References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> Message-ID: <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> Barry A. Warsaw wrote: > > >>>>> "MAL" == M -A Lemburg writes: > > MAL> Could you or Barry be more specific with regard to the PSAs > MAL> objection to create a SIG for patterns, idioms and frameworks > MAL> ? > > My personal objection was that the mission for the SIG is too vague. > My own model of a SIG is as a working group. Ahem. Didn't you get all the mails concerning BSCW and setting up a server to work on ? The mission can't be much more exact because it is the very nature of patterns and the like to be as general as possible. > I don't think SIGs that are used as a general forum for discussion are > as successful as those that are created with specific deliverables in > mind -- the SIG as working group; e.g. MatrixSIG, Objective-C-SIG, > StringSIG, PythonWIN-SIG, DocumentationSIG. These are all formed to > _produce_ something and so the discussions are most likely not of > general interest to the list (as opposed to the products of those > working groups). The goal is to make code available that implements at least some of the GOF-patterns in a reusable way. Apart from that, gathering all the idioms and tricks floating around the net is a very useful task and should be done by someone, so why not us ? Our "products" would then be web pages explaining these findings. > Second, because I think any discussion that would take place on > PatternSIG can be of general interest to the Python audience at large, That's exactly where the problem lies: I simply don't want to have to explain everything to everyone everytime I post an idiom or some code along the lines of a pattern, which a posting to the main list should definitely include. And a second thing: finding the interesting postings in the main list isn't that easy and I wouldn't necessarily reach all other participants of the project. > and because SIGs by their nature aren't going to be as widely > dispersed as the newsgroup/main mailing list, I think at this time, a > PatternSIG unnecessarily segregates the Python community. Hmm. Can't follow you on that one: there are archives, which can easily be browsed... even InfoSeek let's you scan these. > I'd much rather see the you guys start talking about this stuff on the > main mailing list. Then we can start a SIG when there are > well-defined deliverables (which could be, e.g. Web pages of Python > patterns/idioms), or when the sustained traffic proves to be > disruptive to the main list. Oh well... we want to do something togehter, don't we ? So there'll have to be some common working basis, a place to meet and a little encouragement from the PSA... all we're getting is the standard 'why do this, when you can do that too, not bothering us'-mentality. > MAL> [Looks like, PSA membership isn't good for anything after > MAL> all...] > > I don't know why you say this. Simple: frustration... -- cheerios, Marc _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From fdrake@CNRI.Reston.Va.US Thu Mar 27 20:35:28 1997 From: fdrake@CNRI.Reston.Va.US (Fred L. Drake) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 15:35:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: pattern-sig -- tired of waiting... In-Reply-To: <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> from "Marc-Andre Lemburg" at Mar 27, 97 07:43:39 pm Message-ID: <199703272035.PAA01867@weyr.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> I think the pattern-sig should be created; the mailing list is of more interest to me than the BSCW server. The SIG clearly does not overlap the other SIGs, and the main list really is too high-volume already, and so mostly just gets deleted. I pay much more attention to SIG lists because they're well-focussed. The mission statement should be clarified to indicate the specific "deliverables" of the group, with the dominant deliverables being documented, realistic examples of patterns in Python and identification and description of "idioms" common in Python, and what each is good for. Dinu, do I recall correctly that you volunteered to be the shephard for the SIG? -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. fdrake@cnri.reston.va.us Corporation for National Research Initiatives 1895 Preston White Drive Reston, VA 20191-5434 _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From Barry A. Warsaw" <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> Message-ID: <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> >>>>> "ML" == Marc-Andre Lemburg writes: ML> Ahem. Didn't you get all the mails concerning BSCW and setting ML> up a server to work on ? The mission can't be much more exact ML> because it is the very nature of patterns and the like to be ML> as general as possible. I've got some of them, and I've taken a look at BSCW. It's got some cool features (although it seems unusable with Grail :-( ). I'm a little worried about its experimental nature and it less-than-open policy: "So, there are wuite sone "don't do's" like: don't do any serious work with it, don't create other, personal workspaces, don't upload huge files and don't invite the whole Python community." If BSCW were to be an intergral part of PatternSIG, it ought to be open to any member of the SIG, which is potentially open to anybody. I certainly don't mean to take anything away from BSCW itself. It looks really cool! ML> The goal is to make code available that implements at least ML> some of the GOF-patterns in a reusable way. Apart from that, ML> gathering all the idioms and tricks floating around the net is ML> a very useful task and should be done by someone, so why not ML> us ? Our "products" would then be web pages explaining these ML> findings. Great. A SIG mission statement written with this focus is what I'm looking for! I don't want to be a stick in the mud. There's no formal process for voting on SIG creation (maybe there needs to be one as the PSA grows). I didn't get an overwhelming clamor from hordes of people to start a PatternSIG and I suspect most people are just unsure what such a SIG would accomplish. A more focused mission statement might help with this. See: Then I'll put it to a `vote' on meta-sig and see what the response is. -Barry _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de Thu Mar 27 21:32:56 1997 From: lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de (Marc-Andre Lemburg) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 22:32:56 +0100 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: pattern-sig -- tired of waiting... References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> Message-ID: <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> Barry A. Warsaw wrote: > >>>>> "ML" == Marc-Andre Lemburg writes: > ML> Ahem. Didn't you get all the mails concerning BSCW and setting > ML> up a server to work on ? The mission can't be much more exact > ML> because it is the very nature of patterns and the like to be > ML> as general as possible. > > I've got some of them, and I've taken a look at BSCW. It's got some > cool features (although it seems unusable with Grail :-( ). I'm a Hmm. Haven't tested that yet -- the maintainers said something about not being 100% HTML2.0... mail them your problem -- I'm sure they'll fix it (and if you hurry, they might even fix it for the next release). > little worried about its experimental nature and it less-than-open > policy: > > "So, there are wuite sone "don't do's" like: don't do any serious > work with it, don't create other, personal workspaces, don't > upload huge files and don't invite the whole Python community." Yep, that's probably because Dinu wanted to first get a feel for it (it's running on his machine... something that'll have to change, if access speed is too slow). No need to worry, though, the BSCW server itself is free and very robust (there'll be a Version 3.0 soon) -- it even has a version mechanism. > If BSCW were to be an intergral part of PatternSIG, it ought to be > open to any member of the SIG, which is potentially open to anybody. Of course... we'd just need a pointer in www.python.org with some explanations as how to reach the BSCW server. > I certainly don't mean to take anything away from BSCW itself. It > looks really cool! Ehh... why doesn't the CNRI give it a try and installs it as SIG- playground for all SIGs to use ? Then you have all the control you want and I'm sure everybody will be pleased with it. > ML> The goal is to make code available that implements at least > ML> some of the GOF-patterns in a reusable way. Apart from that, > ML> gathering all the idioms and tricks floating around the net is > ML> a very useful task and should be done by someone, so why not > ML> us ? Our "products" would then be web pages explaining these > ML> findings. > > Great. A SIG mission statement written with this focus is what I'm > looking for! As far as I understood Fredriks posting (the one that started this alias list), there already is a mission statement. Maybe it needs some further enhancement [but then: who needs it anyway?], so something like the above might be added. I never thought of pattern-sig as being a mere chitchat. > I don't want to be a stick in the mud. There's no formal process for > voting on SIG creation (maybe there needs to be one as the PSA > grows). I didn't get an overwhelming clamor from hordes of people to > start a PatternSIG and I suspect most people are just unsure what such > a SIG would accomplish. A more focused mission statement might help > with this. See: > > > > Then I'll put it to a `vote' on meta-sig and see what the response is. Cool. That's my man :-) -- cheers, Marc _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From mclay@nist.gov Fri Mar 28 14:19:08 1997 From: mclay@nist.gov (Michael McLay) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 09:19:08 -0500 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: pattern-sig -- tired of waiting... In-Reply-To: <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> Message-ID: <199703281419.JAA27938@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> Marc-Andre Lemburg writes: > Barry A. Warsaw wrote: > > I certainly don't mean to take anything away from BSCW itself. It > > looks really cool! > > Ehh... why doesn't the CNRI give it a try and installs it as SIG- > playground for all SIGs to use ? Then you have all the control > you want and I'm sure everybody will be pleased with it. > At the PSA steering committee meeting last week there was a discussion of what tools to add to the www.python.org site to support group collaboration. Digital Creations and SAIC have a couple Python based applications that will be installed RSN. Hopefully the upgrade to the www capabilities will make SIG management much easier. _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From mclay@nist.gov Fri Mar 28 15:02:30 1997 From: mclay@nist.gov (Michael McLay) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 10:02:30 -0500 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: Local usergroup meeting In-Reply-To: <199703261746.MAA26324@lemur.magnet.com> References: <199703251744.MAA17589@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <199703261746.MAA26324@lemur.magnet.com> Message-ID: <199703281502.KAA28060@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> Andrew Kuchling writes: > > [Should we take this topic to the Meta-SIG, which is also for > PSA activities, instead of just cc'ing each other?] > > Michael McLay wrote: > > The first item of business should probably be to discuss the frequency > > and goals of the group as well as the desired format for the meetings. > > One question is what the meetings are intended to be. Are > they like mini-workshops, where someone presents work of interest? > (Originally I thought that this might leech papers from the workshops, > but then I realized people aren't going to travel very far to attend > user group meetings---the user group would then be a good place to > rehearse presentations and get feedback before the real workshop.) > > Or, would it be like a steering committee? Then meetings > would be an extension of the SIGs, a higher-bandwidth way to hammer > out consensus on issues. Either approach would be useful. IMHO, > there are many important things--too damn many things--which haven't > been completed, like the module locator and various documentation > issues. (I think this is because many of the SIGs are too small and > don't have a critical mass of readers.) It would be good to try to > make decisions on these points at these meetings. I'm moving this discussion to the meta-sig list. What did you think of the idea of having the first discussion being focused on creating a Python based scientific programming framework? There seems to be serious interest in doing this at GSFC and we could use the group meeting to discuss just what such an animal would look like. I think that sort of topic would be more appropriate for a local user group meeting than something like a steering committee meeting. It's a fun topic rather than a bookkeeping activity. For those on the meta-sig list that haven't a clue what led to this posting. Ken, Andrew, and I have been discussing having a DC area Python users group meeting. Unless a better idea for a location is volunteered the first meeting will probably be sometime between April 15th and May 15th at the Bethesda Public Library from 6:30-8:00. They charge $25/year for groups to hold meetings in their meeting room, so we may pass the hat to pick up the tab. Post group meetings will move to one of two potential locations. A new brew pub in the triangle, or Chatters in the Ramada Inn. (Chatters has between 5 and 8 microbrew on tap.) Details on how frequent the meetings will be is the first order of business of the meeting. What do you think? Can we use the last two paragraphs as an announcment to the full newgroup? Please makes additions or corrections that would be appropriate. Thanks --JAA27979.859559572/fermi.eeel.nist.gov-- --JAA28003.859559910/fermi.eeel.nist.gov-- _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From paul@digicool.com Fri Mar 28 20:26:19 1997 From: paul@digicool.com (Paul Everitt) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 15:26:19 -0500 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: Local usergroup meeting References: <199703251744.MAA17589@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <199703261746.MAA26324@lemur.magnet.com> <199703281502.KAA28060@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> Message-ID: <333C296B.7526@digicool.com> After May 1st would be best for us. -- Paul Everitt Digital Creations paul@digicool.com 540.371.6909 ## Python is my favorite language ## ## http://www.python.org/ ## _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From rmasse@CNRI.Reston.Va.US Fri Mar 28 20:37:13 1997 From: rmasse@CNRI.Reston.Va.US (Roger E. Masse) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 15:37:13 -0500 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: Local usergroup meeting References: <199703251744.MAA17589@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <199703261746.MAA26324@lemur.magnet.com> <199703281502.KAA28060@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> Message-ID: <333C2BF9.50F6@CNRI.Reston.Va.US> Michael McLay wrote: > > What did you think of the idea of having the first discussion being > focused on creating a Python based scientific programming framework? I personally don't have anything to contribute in this area... but it would be nice to learn about something new :-) > For those on the meta-sig list that haven't a clue what led to this > posting. Ken, Andrew, and I have been discussing having a DC area > Python users group meeting. Great idea! > and May 15th at the Bethesda Public Library from 6:30-8:00. They > charge $25/year for groups to hold meetings in their meeting room... A better location for me is hard to imagine... :-) Regards, Roger E. Masse, Systems Engineer Corporation for National Research Initiatives 1895 Preston White Drive, Suite 100 Reston, Virginia, USA 22091 Internet: rmasse@CNRI.Reston.VA.US _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de Sun Mar 30 12:47:34 1997 From: lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 14:47:34 +0200 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: pattern-sig -- mission statement References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> Message-ID: <333E60E6.392BF082@uni-duesseldorf.de> Ok, I'll give it another try. I inserted one more sentence in the mission statement that Dinu originally posted. Hope that fixes the 'fluffy clouds' critique put forward by Barry. Comments anyone ? -------------------------------------------------------------- Pattern-SIG Mission Statement PATTERN-SIG, a Special Interest Group for using Python with emphasis on idioms, patterns and frameworks. This list has been created to provide a forum for discussing issues related to using design techniques and practices together with Python. The people who initiated this forum simply believe that for various reasons Python is a wonderful language that makes implementing and thinking about higher-level design concepts very easy. These concepts range from the small-scale programming idioms and 'tricks' to medium-scale design patterns, usually comprising entities of several classes, to large-scale designs based on frameworks, often combining several patterns themselves. Some of the reasons for believing in Python's appropriateness for this programming-in-the-large area are the following ones. Python is fully dynamically typed, which reduces the need to declare variables to zero. Python code can therefore be typed much faster allowing for playing with the design, something rather impossible to do with statically typed languages. Being based on indentation, Python's syntax is minimalistic and clean, making it easy to read (and write) code and recognize structures even when produced by others. Python is fully object-oriented and lends itself much more to designing real systems that do scale far better than any other bastardized version of (so-called) object-oriented scripted languages. Python can be regarded as a pretty ideal candidate for a first language, making it easy to bundle design concepts like those incorporated by patterns and frameworks right from the start into developers and projects. On this list we want to discuss along the lines of "Python applied to higher-level design of programs", emphasizing questions and issues, not to be learned from the study of a programming language alone, but only from the interaction with its users' experience and projects. We do believe that there is valuable design experience to be communicated on several levels (idioms, patterns, frameworks) and we want to see that happen here. Mastering a given language is just one part of the equation. Accessing a body of established design knowledge is the other one. To get things going people contributing here should revisit their projects, either mentally or even in code, perhaps, and ask themselves what it is they learned in a specific case, how they solved a situation, what trick they used and, of course, how this could be reproduced by them or others in a useful way. More to the point, we are interested in what patterns have emerged within the Python community, we are curious to see if these are similar to those developed by others and we'd like you be aware that you probably are already using patterns, but that it makes much sense to be aware about them for your own benefit and for that of others. If you've been using design patterns consciously, even better. We want to know about your experience and talk about patterns from various sources like those of the Gang-of-Four (GOF). Please share your experience with us! ! Our goal is to make these findings available to a larger public ! through the web, describing them and giving - if possible - ! code examples in reusable Python. About this list: Additions and deletions are all automated via Majordomo. For details, send the word `help' in the body of a mail message to the Administrivia address given below. The subscription policy is `open', meaning you can add or delete yourself at any time, but you cannot add or delete anyone else without approval. This list is unmoderated and unrestricted. This means that anybody can post messages to the list. Messages are archived and available for download, as are perhaps other useful files. For details, send the word `index' in the body of a message to the Administrivia address. We hope we can arrange for brief summaries of what is going on on the PATTERN-SIG list to be posted to comp.lang.python about every four weeks, although this won't be easy to do in a regular fashion... But, ideally, it would allow people not present on the list to get at least a rough idea of what is happening and help them decide if they want to join. Post messages to everyone on the list by using the List address. If you absolutely must to contact a human being, use the Owner address. ============================================================ List address: pattern-sig@python.org Administrivia: pattern-sig-request@python.org Owner: pattern-sig-owner@python.org ============================================================ -- Marc-Andre Lemburg mailto:lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de Sun Mar 30 12:47:05 1997 From: lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 14:47:05 +0200 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: pattern-sig -- tired of waiting... References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703281419.JAA27938@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> Message-ID: <333E60C9.54B15B70@uni-duesseldorf.de> Michael McLay wrote: > At the PSA steering committee meeting last week there was a discussion > of what tools to add to the www.python.org site to support group > collaboration. Digital Creations and SAIC have a couple Python based > applications that will be installed RSN. Hopefully the upgrade to the > www capabilities will make SIG management much easier. Don't have much trust in the BSCW stuff, do you :-? Anyway... could you give a pointer to find out about the features of their software ? or maybe even to a demo site ? -- Marc-Andre Lemburg mailto:lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From amk@magnet.com Sat Mar 29 00:18:09 1997 From: amk@magnet.com (Andrew Kuchling) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 19:18:09 +6700 (EST) Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: Local usergroup meeting In-Reply-To: <199703281502.KAA28060@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> from "Michael McLay" at Mar 28, 97 10:02:30 am Message-ID: <199704010018.TAA11758@lemur.magnet.com> Michael McLay wrote: > What did you think of the idea of having the first discussion being > focused on creating a Python based scientific programming framework? I'd be very interested in that topic, since it could potentially motivate improvements in packaging, documentation, and probably some technical areas as well. > volunteered the first meeting will probably be sometime between April 15th > and May 15th at the Bethesda Public Library from 6:30-8:00. They That would be fine for a carless person like me. I wonder how many people will be able to stay around after 8 PM, since CNRI and Digital Creations people would have a sizable distance to go. (Magnet people can *always* stay for beer. :) ) > What do you think? Can we use the last two paragraphs as an > announcment to the full newgroup? Please makes additions or > corrections that would be appropriate. As an introduction, they seem fine. You'll have to give directions to the library for both cars and public transit, though. And are there limits on how many people the meeting room can handle? (Arguably there wouldn't be more than 20 people attending, and probably more like 10.) Go for it! Andrew Kuchling amk@magnet.com http://people.magnet.com/%7Eamk/ Save the Gutenberg Project! http://www.promo.net/pg/nl/pgny_nov96.html _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From Dinu Gherman Thu Mar 13 17:53:42 1997 From: Dinu Gherman (Dinu Gherman) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 97 18:53:42 +0100 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] proposal for PATTERN-SIG mission statement In-Reply-To: <199703131600.LAA02324@weyr.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> References: <199703131600.LAA02324@weyr.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> Message-ID: <199703131753.RAA01168@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Fred L. Drake wrote: > I'd also remove the word "other" in any case; that implies that > Python is also a "bastardized version of (so-called) object-oriented > scripted language;" not the impression we're shooting for, and not > terribly accurate either! ;-) Well, you're right, of course. A more polite form would be perfectly in order. Grammatically, though, this could be elegantly solved by inserting a comma after 'other', I be- lieve (native speakers, correct me, please), yielding the following: "... than any other, bastardized version of (so-called) object-oriented scripted languages." Of course, I am not insisting on this solution... ;-) Dinu _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From fdrake@CNRI.Reston.Va.US Thu Mar 13 18:55:04 1997 From: fdrake@CNRI.Reston.Va.US (Fred L. Drake) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:55:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] proposal for PATTERN-SIG mission statement In-Reply-To: <199703131753.RAA01168@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> from "Dinu Gherman" at Mar 13, 97 06:53:42 pm Message-ID: <199703131855.NAA03035@weyr.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> Dinu Gherman wrote: > > Well, you're right, of course. A more polite form would be Well, sometimes. > perfectly in order. Grammatically, though, this could be > elegantly solved by inserting a comma after 'other', I be- > lieve (native speakers, correct me, please), yielding the > following: > > "... than any other, bastardized version of (so-called) > object-oriented scripted languages." I think I'd prefer "... than other object-oriented scripting languages" and just leave it. Non-technical commentary on other languages should be left for Advocacy-SIG. ;-) Seriously, I'd keep it simple and to-the-point. The SIGs I follow seem to be doing fine with their self-moderating status, so there's little point in making clear what the SIG isn't for as long as what it is for is explained. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. fdrake@cnri.reston.va.us Corporation for National Research Initiatives 1895 Preston White Drive Reston, VA 20191-5434 _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From Dinu Gherman Fri Mar 14 11:39:55 1997 From: Dinu Gherman (Dinu Gherman) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 12:39:55 +0100 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] proposal for PATTERN-SIG mission statement In-Reply-To: <199703131855.NAA03035@weyr.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> References: <199703131855.NAA03035@weyr.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> Message-ID: <199703141139.LAA03149@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Fred wrote: > I think I'd prefer "... than other object-oriented scripting > languages" and just leave it. Non-technical commentary on other > languages should be left for Advocacy-SIG. ;-) As I said, no problem! I hope there will be some more comments on the proposal's content. I'm not sure how this will go on and how you, the PSA will adopt a new sig or not, or if there is a formal procedure or not. If it is formal to whatever degree I'd like to point you to a tiny e-voting tool I've written recently, where I could add a simple poll anytime. It's far from being finished, but might be of certain use in some near future. Is there something similar, done in Python? Would that be useful for the PSA in general? Well, give it a try by adding "WebVote/" to my home below. Regards, Dinu --- Dinu C. Gherman http://www.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/gherman/ EMBL http://www.embl-heidelberg.de/ Heidelberg http://www.germany.eu.net/shop/Heidelberg.info.cvb/ _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From fredrik_lundh@ivab.se Fri Mar 14 13:24:16 1997 From: fredrik_lundh@ivab.se (Fredrik Lundh) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 14:24:16 +0100 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] proposal for PATTERN-SIG mission statement In-Reply-To: <199703141139.LAA03149@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> (message from Dinu Gherman on Fri, 14 Mar 97 12:39:55 +0100) Message-ID: <9703141324.AA05778@arnold.image.ivab.se> > If it is formal to whatever degree I'd like to point you to a tiny > e-voting tool I've written recently, where I could add a simple poll > anytime. Shouldn't be necessary, shouldn't it? Unless the folks on the meta-sig objects, I'm sure Barry will take care of the necessary "paperwork" as soon as possible. Or? (Hmm. I didn't notice that clause about bastardized languages the first time I read it. I better take another look ;-) Cheers /F (http://hem1.passagen.se/eff) _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From Dinu Gherman Thu Mar 20 13:59:47 1997 From: Dinu Gherman (Dinu Gherman) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 14:59:47 +0100 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] proposal for PATTERN-SIG mission statement In-Reply-To: <199703131208.MAA29931@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> References: <199703131208.MAA29931@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Message-ID: <199703201359.NAA20889@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Hello all, I just want to make sure the growing pattern community is not forgotten by the PSA. What's the state of affairs concerning the formation of an official PATTERN-SIG? Note that I am not pressing anybody to take action, but a few of us have started chatting on the base of mail aliases and we discovered a tool which seems most appropriate to organize our efforts. It's the well known BSCW developed by Richard Bentley et al. at GMD. There will be a new release, soon, and I made a lengthy wish list of things I'd like to see in the next version. Right now, I am still evaluating it and trying to find a place for such a server. I guess Christian Tismer might like to put it on his flagship, but I am not sure. I am not so familiar with establishing a Python SIG so you might well say, "hey, you did not know it will take you forever?" Well, I am exaggerating ;-), sorry! Still, if you feel like, I'd be happy if you dropped me a line. Cheers, Dinu _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From Barry A. Warsaw" <199703201359.NAA20889@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Message-ID: <199703212255.RAA00468@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> Establishing a SIG is really a pretty informal affair. For better or worse, it is a non-insignificant amount of work for me to create all the Majordomo and sendmail mess to get the SIG going, so I really like to do it for those SIGs that have a clear mission in life. Dinu, I read your mission statement and I think it's a good first shot. However, I think you can both trim it down and state clearly what it is you hope to accomplish with the SIG. You probably don't need much of the text that describes/justifies Python -- I think that's a given. Ideally the mission statement should fit on one "page". And I had a hard time understanding what exactly it is you want to accomplish with the SIG; e.g. what are it's deliverables? IMO, the most successful SIGs have had a clear, limited mission. The more amorphous it is, the less successful. If you're just looking for a convenient forum for discussion patterns in Python programming, I'd ask why you think the general newsgroup is not appropriate? Do you think this area will generate that much traffic? Do you think the results are of limited interest to the Python community at large? What would make me more enthusiastic about the SIG (I'm already enthusiastic about the subject matter!) would be to see a list of what you want to produce. E.g. "The PatternSIG will collect and collate common programming patterns, idioms, and tricks 'o the trade, of general use to the Python community. Its mission is to produce a set of well-indexed Web pages that Python programmers can use as reference material for their own projects." -Barry _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From Dinu Gherman Mon Mar 24 13:09:12 1997 From: Dinu Gherman (Dinu Gherman) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 97 14:09:12 +0100 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] proposal for PATTERN-SIG mission statement In-Reply-To: <199703212255.RAA00468@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> References: <199703131208.MAA29931@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <199703201359.NAA20889@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <199703212255.RAA00468@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> Message-ID: <199703241309.NAA02480@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> Barry wrote: > Dinu, I read your mission statement and I think it's a good first > shot. However, I think you can both trim it down and state clearly > what it is you hope to accomplish with the SIG. [...] Barry, you're completely right of course! I thought of the first draft as too much of a thing to be used also for non-Pythoneers. I still think this is not superfluous, but indeed it's not appropriate as the *list's* mission statement. Sorry. > If you're just looking for a convenient forum for discussion patterns > in Python programming, I'd ask why you think the general newsgroup is > not appropriate? Do you think this area will generate that much > traffic? Do you think the results are of limited interest to the > Python community at large? Well, PATTERN-SIG should not only be a discussion forum. Ideally it would be a virtual place to collect and refine code and design experience / knowledge and provide it to all those interested. I think the BSCW tool is very appropriate as a means to that end and I'd like to invite anybody interested to play a little with a demo I've installed on my machine. Just send me a mail. I have not succeeded yet in making it work for anonymous users. Then, yes, I think this SIG could be quite useful to all those on c.l.p, but also, yes, I do have the impression that the newsgroup is to heavy already and would certainly benefit from a modest split into something like comp.lang.python.{announce, advocacy, language, programmer, software}, but that's a different story, of course. First I thought of posting PATTERN-SIG reports on c.l.p, but I don't really think anymore that would work. Summing up, I think the mailing list is just what we need to focus on our topic and a virtual repository for collecting and developing the stuff we're concerned about is the other. In the end we might need something simpler like plain web pages to present the collected material, but I think this is not in sight on ultra-short term. In the beginning BSCW with anonymous users added will do. > What would make me more enthusiastic about the SIG (I'm already > enthusiastic about the subject matter!) would be to see a list of what > you want to produce. E.g. "The PatternSIG will collect and collate > common programming patterns, idioms, and tricks 'o the trade, of > general use to the Python community. Its mission is to produce a set > of well-indexed Web pages that Python programmers can use as reference > material for their own projects." That's exactly where I'd like to see us moving to. ;-) Ok. I'll write it up more concisely and re-submit it to this list, soon. Thanks for the comments! Dinu _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From Barry A. Warsaw" <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> Message-ID: <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> >>>>> "MAL" == M -A Lemburg writes: MAL> Could you or Barry be more specific with regard to the PSAs MAL> objection to create a SIG for patterns, idioms and frameworks MAL> ? My personal objection was that the mission for the SIG is too vague. My own model of a SIG is as a working group. I don't think SIGs that are used as a general forum for discussion are as successful as those that are created with specific deliverables in mind -- the SIG as working group; e.g. MatrixSIG, Objective-C-SIG, StringSIG, PythonWIN-SIG, DocumentationSIG. These are all formed to _produce_ something and so the discussions are most likely not of general interest to the list (as opposed to the products of those working groups). Second, because I think any discussion that would take place on PatternSIG can be of general interest to the Python audience at large, and because SIGs by their nature aren't going to be as widely dispersed as the newsgroup/main mailing list, I think at this time, a PatternSIG unnecessarily segregates the Python community. I'd much rather see the you guys start talking about this stuff on the main mailing list. Then we can start a SIG when there are well-defined deliverables (which could be, e.g. Web pages of Python patterns/idioms), or when the sustained traffic proves to be disruptive to the main list. MAL> [Looks like, PSA membership isn't good for anything after MAL> all...] I don't know why you say this. -Barry _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de Thu Mar 27 18:43:39 1997 From: lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de (Marc-Andre Lemburg) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 19:43:39 +0100 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: pattern-sig -- tired of waiting... References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> Message-ID: <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> Barry A. Warsaw wrote: > > >>>>> "MAL" == M -A Lemburg writes: > > MAL> Could you or Barry be more specific with regard to the PSAs > MAL> objection to create a SIG for patterns, idioms and frameworks > MAL> ? > > My personal objection was that the mission for the SIG is too vague. > My own model of a SIG is as a working group. Ahem. Didn't you get all the mails concerning BSCW and setting up a server to work on ? The mission can't be much more exact because it is the very nature of patterns and the like to be as general as possible. > I don't think SIGs that are used as a general forum for discussion are > as successful as those that are created with specific deliverables in > mind -- the SIG as working group; e.g. MatrixSIG, Objective-C-SIG, > StringSIG, PythonWIN-SIG, DocumentationSIG. These are all formed to > _produce_ something and so the discussions are most likely not of > general interest to the list (as opposed to the products of those > working groups). The goal is to make code available that implements at least some of the GOF-patterns in a reusable way. Apart from that, gathering all the idioms and tricks floating around the net is a very useful task and should be done by someone, so why not us ? Our "products" would then be web pages explaining these findings. > Second, because I think any discussion that would take place on > PatternSIG can be of general interest to the Python audience at large, That's exactly where the problem lies: I simply don't want to have to explain everything to everyone everytime I post an idiom or some code along the lines of a pattern, which a posting to the main list should definitely include. And a second thing: finding the interesting postings in the main list isn't that easy and I wouldn't necessarily reach all other participants of the project. > and because SIGs by their nature aren't going to be as widely > dispersed as the newsgroup/main mailing list, I think at this time, a > PatternSIG unnecessarily segregates the Python community. Hmm. Can't follow you on that one: there are archives, which can easily be browsed... even InfoSeek let's you scan these. > I'd much rather see the you guys start talking about this stuff on the > main mailing list. Then we can start a SIG when there are > well-defined deliverables (which could be, e.g. Web pages of Python > patterns/idioms), or when the sustained traffic proves to be > disruptive to the main list. Oh well... we want to do something togehter, don't we ? So there'll have to be some common working basis, a place to meet and a little encouragement from the PSA... all we're getting is the standard 'why do this, when you can do that too, not bothering us'-mentality. > MAL> [Looks like, PSA membership isn't good for anything after > MAL> all...] > > I don't know why you say this. Simple: frustration... -- cheerios, Marc _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From fdrake@CNRI.Reston.Va.US Thu Mar 27 20:35:28 1997 From: fdrake@CNRI.Reston.Va.US (Fred L. Drake) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 15:35:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: pattern-sig -- tired of waiting... In-Reply-To: <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> from "Marc-Andre Lemburg" at Mar 27, 97 07:43:39 pm Message-ID: <199703272035.PAA01867@weyr.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> I think the pattern-sig should be created; the mailing list is of more interest to me than the BSCW server. The SIG clearly does not overlap the other SIGs, and the main list really is too high-volume already, and so mostly just gets deleted. I pay much more attention to SIG lists because they're well-focussed. The mission statement should be clarified to indicate the specific "deliverables" of the group, with the dominant deliverables being documented, realistic examples of patterns in Python and identification and description of "idioms" common in Python, and what each is good for. Dinu, do I recall correctly that you volunteered to be the shephard for the SIG? -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. fdrake@cnri.reston.va.us Corporation for National Research Initiatives 1895 Preston White Drive Reston, VA 20191-5434 _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From Barry A. Warsaw" <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> Message-ID: <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> >>>>> "ML" == Marc-Andre Lemburg writes: ML> Ahem. Didn't you get all the mails concerning BSCW and setting ML> up a server to work on ? The mission can't be much more exact ML> because it is the very nature of patterns and the like to be ML> as general as possible. I've got some of them, and I've taken a look at BSCW. It's got some cool features (although it seems unusable with Grail :-( ). I'm a little worried about its experimental nature and it less-than-open policy: "So, there are wuite sone "don't do's" like: don't do any serious work with it, don't create other, personal workspaces, don't upload huge files and don't invite the whole Python community." If BSCW were to be an intergral part of PatternSIG, it ought to be open to any member of the SIG, which is potentially open to anybody. I certainly don't mean to take anything away from BSCW itself. It looks really cool! ML> The goal is to make code available that implements at least ML> some of the GOF-patterns in a reusable way. Apart from that, ML> gathering all the idioms and tricks floating around the net is ML> a very useful task and should be done by someone, so why not ML> us ? Our "products" would then be web pages explaining these ML> findings. Great. A SIG mission statement written with this focus is what I'm looking for! I don't want to be a stick in the mud. There's no formal process for voting on SIG creation (maybe there needs to be one as the PSA grows). I didn't get an overwhelming clamor from hordes of people to start a PatternSIG and I suspect most people are just unsure what such a SIG would accomplish. A more focused mission statement might help with this. See: Then I'll put it to a `vote' on meta-sig and see what the response is. -Barry _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de Thu Mar 27 21:32:56 1997 From: lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de (Marc-Andre Lemburg) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 22:32:56 +0100 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: pattern-sig -- tired of waiting... References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> Message-ID: <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> Barry A. Warsaw wrote: > >>>>> "ML" == Marc-Andre Lemburg writes: > ML> Ahem. Didn't you get all the mails concerning BSCW and setting > ML> up a server to work on ? The mission can't be much more exact > ML> because it is the very nature of patterns and the like to be > ML> as general as possible. > > I've got some of them, and I've taken a look at BSCW. It's got some > cool features (although it seems unusable with Grail :-( ). I'm a Hmm. Haven't tested that yet -- the maintainers said something about not being 100% HTML2.0... mail them your problem -- I'm sure they'll fix it (and if you hurry, they might even fix it for the next release). > little worried about its experimental nature and it less-than-open > policy: > > "So, there are wuite sone "don't do's" like: don't do any serious > work with it, don't create other, personal workspaces, don't > upload huge files and don't invite the whole Python community." Yep, that's probably because Dinu wanted to first get a feel for it (it's running on his machine... something that'll have to change, if access speed is too slow). No need to worry, though, the BSCW server itself is free and very robust (there'll be a Version 3.0 soon) -- it even has a version mechanism. > If BSCW were to be an intergral part of PatternSIG, it ought to be > open to any member of the SIG, which is potentially open to anybody. Of course... we'd just need a pointer in www.python.org with some explanations as how to reach the BSCW server. > I certainly don't mean to take anything away from BSCW itself. It > looks really cool! Ehh... why doesn't the CNRI give it a try and installs it as SIG- playground for all SIGs to use ? Then you have all the control you want and I'm sure everybody will be pleased with it. > ML> The goal is to make code available that implements at least > ML> some of the GOF-patterns in a reusable way. Apart from that, > ML> gathering all the idioms and tricks floating around the net is > ML> a very useful task and should be done by someone, so why not > ML> us ? Our "products" would then be web pages explaining these > ML> findings. > > Great. A SIG mission statement written with this focus is what I'm > looking for! As far as I understood Fredriks posting (the one that started this alias list), there already is a mission statement. Maybe it needs some further enhancement [but then: who needs it anyway?], so something like the above might be added. I never thought of pattern-sig as being a mere chitchat. > I don't want to be a stick in the mud. There's no formal process for > voting on SIG creation (maybe there needs to be one as the PSA > grows). I didn't get an overwhelming clamor from hordes of people to > start a PatternSIG and I suspect most people are just unsure what such > a SIG would accomplish. A more focused mission statement might help > with this. See: > > > > Then I'll put it to a `vote' on meta-sig and see what the response is. Cool. That's my man :-) -- cheers, Marc _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From mclay@nist.gov Fri Mar 28 14:19:08 1997 From: mclay@nist.gov (Michael McLay) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 09:19:08 -0500 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: pattern-sig -- tired of waiting... In-Reply-To: <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> Message-ID: <199703281419.JAA27938@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> Marc-Andre Lemburg writes: > Barry A. Warsaw wrote: > > I certainly don't mean to take anything away from BSCW itself. It > > looks really cool! > > Ehh... why doesn't the CNRI give it a try and installs it as SIG- > playground for all SIGs to use ? Then you have all the control > you want and I'm sure everybody will be pleased with it. > At the PSA steering committee meeting last week there was a discussion of what tools to add to the www.python.org site to support group collaboration. Digital Creations and SAIC have a couple Python based applications that will be installed RSN. Hopefully the upgrade to the www capabilities will make SIG management much easier. _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From mclay@nist.gov Fri Mar 28 15:02:30 1997 From: mclay@nist.gov (Michael McLay) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 10:02:30 -0500 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: Local usergroup meeting In-Reply-To: <199703261746.MAA26324@lemur.magnet.com> References: <199703251744.MAA17589@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <199703261746.MAA26324@lemur.magnet.com> Message-ID: <199703281502.KAA28060@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> Andrew Kuchling writes: > > [Should we take this topic to the Meta-SIG, which is also for > PSA activities, instead of just cc'ing each other?] > > Michael McLay wrote: > > The first item of business should probably be to discuss the frequency > > and goals of the group as well as the desired format for the meetings. > > One question is what the meetings are intended to be. Are > they like mini-workshops, where someone presents work of interest? > (Originally I thought that this might leech papers from the workshops, > but then I realized people aren't going to travel very far to attend > user group meetings---the user group would then be a good place to > rehearse presentations and get feedback before the real workshop.) > > Or, would it be like a steering committee? Then meetings > would be an extension of the SIGs, a higher-bandwidth way to hammer > out consensus on issues. Either approach would be useful. IMHO, > there are many important things--too damn many things--which haven't > been completed, like the module locator and various documentation > issues. (I think this is because many of the SIGs are too small and > don't have a critical mass of readers.) It would be good to try to > make decisions on these points at these meetings. I'm moving this discussion to the meta-sig list. What did you think of the idea of having the first discussion being focused on creating a Python based scientific programming framework? There seems to be serious interest in doing this at GSFC and we could use the group meeting to discuss just what such an animal would look like. I think that sort of topic would be more appropriate for a local user group meeting than something like a steering committee meeting. It's a fun topic rather than a bookkeeping activity. For those on the meta-sig list that haven't a clue what led to this posting. Ken, Andrew, and I have been discussing having a DC area Python users group meeting. Unless a better idea for a location is volunteered the first meeting will probably be sometime between April 15th and May 15th at the Bethesda Public Library from 6:30-8:00. They charge $25/year for groups to hold meetings in their meeting room, so we may pass the hat to pick up the tab. Post group meetings will move to one of two potential locations. A new brew pub in the triangle, or Chatters in the Ramada Inn. (Chatters has between 5 and 8 microbrew on tap.) Details on how frequent the meetings will be is the first order of business of the meeting. What do you think? Can we use the last two paragraphs as an announcment to the full newgroup? Please makes additions or corrections that would be appropriate. Thanks --JAA27979.859559572/fermi.eeel.nist.gov-- --JAA28003.859559910/fermi.eeel.nist.gov-- _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From paul@digicool.com Fri Mar 28 20:26:19 1997 From: paul@digicool.com (Paul Everitt) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 15:26:19 -0500 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: Local usergroup meeting References: <199703251744.MAA17589@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <199703261746.MAA26324@lemur.magnet.com> <199703281502.KAA28060@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> Message-ID: <333C296B.7526@digicool.com> After May 1st would be best for us. -- Paul Everitt Digital Creations paul@digicool.com 540.371.6909 ## Python is my favorite language ## ## http://www.python.org/ ## _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From rmasse@CNRI.Reston.Va.US Fri Mar 28 20:37:13 1997 From: rmasse@CNRI.Reston.Va.US (Roger E. Masse) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 15:37:13 -0500 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: Local usergroup meeting References: <199703251744.MAA17589@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> <199703261746.MAA26324@lemur.magnet.com> <199703281502.KAA28060@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> Message-ID: <333C2BF9.50F6@CNRI.Reston.Va.US> Michael McLay wrote: > > What did you think of the idea of having the first discussion being > focused on creating a Python based scientific programming framework? I personally don't have anything to contribute in this area... but it would be nice to learn about something new :-) > For those on the meta-sig list that haven't a clue what led to this > posting. Ken, Andrew, and I have been discussing having a DC area > Python users group meeting. Great idea! > and May 15th at the Bethesda Public Library from 6:30-8:00. They > charge $25/year for groups to hold meetings in their meeting room... A better location for me is hard to imagine... :-) Regards, Roger E. Masse, Systems Engineer Corporation for National Research Initiatives 1895 Preston White Drive, Suite 100 Reston, Virginia, USA 22091 Internet: rmasse@CNRI.Reston.VA.US _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de Sun Mar 30 12:47:34 1997 From: lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 14:47:34 +0200 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: pattern-sig -- mission statement References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> Message-ID: <333E60E6.392BF082@uni-duesseldorf.de> Ok, I'll give it another try. I inserted one more sentence in the mission statement that Dinu originally posted. Hope that fixes the 'fluffy clouds' critique put forward by Barry. Comments anyone ? -------------------------------------------------------------- Pattern-SIG Mission Statement PATTERN-SIG, a Special Interest Group for using Python with emphasis on idioms, patterns and frameworks. This list has been created to provide a forum for discussing issues related to using design techniques and practices together with Python. The people who initiated this forum simply believe that for various reasons Python is a wonderful language that makes implementing and thinking about higher-level design concepts very easy. These concepts range from the small-scale programming idioms and 'tricks' to medium-scale design patterns, usually comprising entities of several classes, to large-scale designs based on frameworks, often combining several patterns themselves. Some of the reasons for believing in Python's appropriateness for this programming-in-the-large area are the following ones. Python is fully dynamically typed, which reduces the need to declare variables to zero. Python code can therefore be typed much faster allowing for playing with the design, something rather impossible to do with statically typed languages. Being based on indentation, Python's syntax is minimalistic and clean, making it easy to read (and write) code and recognize structures even when produced by others. Python is fully object-oriented and lends itself much more to designing real systems that do scale far better than any other bastardized version of (so-called) object-oriented scripted languages. Python can be regarded as a pretty ideal candidate for a first language, making it easy to bundle design concepts like those incorporated by patterns and frameworks right from the start into developers and projects. On this list we want to discuss along the lines of "Python applied to higher-level design of programs", emphasizing questions and issues, not to be learned from the study of a programming language alone, but only from the interaction with its users' experience and projects. We do believe that there is valuable design experience to be communicated on several levels (idioms, patterns, frameworks) and we want to see that happen here. Mastering a given language is just one part of the equation. Accessing a body of established design knowledge is the other one. To get things going people contributing here should revisit their projects, either mentally or even in code, perhaps, and ask themselves what it is they learned in a specific case, how they solved a situation, what trick they used and, of course, how this could be reproduced by them or others in a useful way. More to the point, we are interested in what patterns have emerged within the Python community, we are curious to see if these are similar to those developed by others and we'd like you be aware that you probably are already using patterns, but that it makes much sense to be aware about them for your own benefit and for that of others. If you've been using design patterns consciously, even better. We want to know about your experience and talk about patterns from various sources like those of the Gang-of-Four (GOF). Please share your experience with us! ! Our goal is to make these findings available to a larger public ! through the web, describing them and giving - if possible - ! code examples in reusable Python. About this list: Additions and deletions are all automated via Majordomo. For details, send the word `help' in the body of a mail message to the Administrivia address given below. The subscription policy is `open', meaning you can add or delete yourself at any time, but you cannot add or delete anyone else without approval. This list is unmoderated and unrestricted. This means that anybody can post messages to the list. Messages are archived and available for download, as are perhaps other useful files. For details, send the word `index' in the body of a message to the Administrivia address. We hope we can arrange for brief summaries of what is going on on the PATTERN-SIG list to be posted to comp.lang.python about every four weeks, although this won't be easy to do in a regular fashion... But, ideally, it would allow people not present on the list to get at least a rough idea of what is happening and help them decide if they want to join. Post messages to everyone on the list by using the List address. If you absolutely must to contact a human being, use the Owner address. ============================================================ List address: pattern-sig@python.org Administrivia: pattern-sig-request@python.org Owner: pattern-sig-owner@python.org ============================================================ -- Marc-Andre Lemburg mailto:lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de Sun Mar 30 12:47:05 1997 From: lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de (M.-A. Lemburg) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 14:47:05 +0200 Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: pattern-sig -- tired of waiting... References: <9702190939.AA15386@arnold.image.ivab.se> <199703251806.SAA08688@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE> <33392FA7.76E0A04C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703261842.NAA11244@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333ABFDB.2AFC@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703272054.PAA23969@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US> <333AE788.405C@uni-duesseldorf.de> <199703281419.JAA27938@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> Message-ID: <333E60C9.54B15B70@uni-duesseldorf.de> Michael McLay wrote: > At the PSA steering committee meeting last week there was a discussion > of what tools to add to the www.python.org site to support group > collaboration. Digital Creations and SAIC have a couple Python based > applications that will be installed RSN. Hopefully the upgrade to the > www capabilities will make SIG management much easier. Don't have much trust in the BSCW stuff, do you :-? Anyway... could you give a pointer to find out about the features of their software ? or maybe even to a demo site ? -- Marc-Andre Lemburg mailto:lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________ From amk@magnet.com Sat Mar 29 00:18:09 1997 From: amk@magnet.com (Andrew Kuchling) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 19:18:09 +6700 (EST) Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: Local usergroup meeting In-Reply-To: <199703281502.KAA28060@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> from "Michael McLay" at Mar 28, 97 10:02:30 am Message-ID: <199704010018.TAA11758@lemur.magnet.com> Michael McLay wrote: > What did you think of the idea of having the first discussion being > focused on creating a Python based scientific programming framework? I'd be very interested in that topic, since it could potentially motivate improvements in packaging, documentation, and probably some technical areas as well. > volunteered the first meeting will probably be sometime between April 15th > and May 15th at the Bethesda Public Library from 6:30-8:00. They That would be fine for a carless person like me. I wonder how many people will be able to stay around after 8 PM, since CNRI and Digital Creations people would have a sizable distance to go. (Magnet people can *always* stay for beer. :) ) > What do you think? Can we use the last two paragraphs as an > announcment to the full newgroup? Please makes additions or > corrections that would be appropriate. As an introduction, they seem fine. You'll have to give directions to the library for both cars and public transit, though. And are there limits on how many people the meeting room can handle? (Arguably there wouldn't be more than 20 people attending, and probably more like 10.) Go for it! Andrew Kuchling amk@magnet.com http://people.magnet.com/%7Eamk/ Save the Gutenberg Project! http://www.promo.net/pg/nl/pgny_nov96.html _______________ META-SIG - SIG on Python.Org SIGs and Mailing Lists send messages to: meta-sig@python.org administrivia to: meta-sig-request@python.org _______________