From Barry A. Warsaw" <bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us  Mon Aug 28 16:56:29 1995
From: Barry A. Warsaw" <bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 11:56:29 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: SIGs
References: <199508261517.PAA08198@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>
Message-ID: <9508281556.AA00400@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US>


>>>>> "Jim" == Jim Fulton, U S Geological Survey <jfulton@usgs.gov> writes:

    Jim> Could you establish the matrix-sig and gui-sig mailing lists
    Jim> so that we could proceed with these discussions?
    Jim> Alternatively, I could establish these on my machine.

    Jim> Also, were you going to set these up with archives?  I'd like
    Jim> to have them automatically archived, possibly with the
    Jim> WWW-front end.

    Jim> Also, could you send me the sign-up instructions so that I
    Jim> can announce the mailing lists in the newsgroup?

Jim,

My apologies for letting this slide.  I got swamped and your message
got buried in my Inbox.

I've just created both the gui-sig and matrix-sig mailing lists on
python.org.  They essentially mirror the existing meta-sig list,
except that I've made you (jfulton@usgs.gov) the owner of both lists.
Although it appears you don't currently have an account on python.org,
I'm not opposed to giving you one.  Let's talk out of band about this.
Give me a call (703-620-8990) and I'll also give you the lists'
passwords so you can do remote administrivia with the lists.

As I mentioned in my meta-sig postings (see the archives under
meta-sig-request@python.org),  messages go to <topic>-sig@python.org
and administrivia (adds, deletes, md commands) go to
<topic>-sig-request@python.org, where <topic> here is `gui' or
`matrix'.  I've put a boilerplate .config, .info, and .passwd file in
place for both lists, though I'm sure you'll want to edit the
<topic>.info file.

Both lists are archived, and can be retrieved with the md `file'
command sent to the list's administrivia account.  Both lists
currently have empty subscription lists, so you'll have to add even
yourself.  Just send the message `subscribe' in the *body* of your
message to <topic>-sig-request@python.org.

That's everything I can think of.  If you have any problems, you can
contact me directly and we'll iron out the problems.

Again, sorry for the delay.

-Barry

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From guido@cnri.reston.va.us  Mon Aug 28 20:56:13 1995
From: guido@cnri.reston.va.us (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 15:56:13 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: SIGs
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 28 Aug 1995 11:56:29 EDT."
 <9508281556.AA00400@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US>
References: <199508261517.PAA08198@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>  <9508281556.AA00400@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US>
Message-ID: <199508281956.PAA06875@monty>

Now that Barry's created the matrix and gui sigs, I've added their
email addresses to the sigs web page on python.org.  I guess Jim
should prepare a little introduction to be placed in the <topic>.info
files and also post that to the net so people are aware of the new
sigs.  (I could then also change the description of the sigs in the
sigs web page.)

--Guido van Rossum <guido@CNRI.Reston.VA.US>
URL: <http://www.python.org/~guido/>

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From jfulton@usgs.gov  Mon Aug 28 22:08:45 1995
From: jfulton@usgs.gov (Jim Fulton, U.S. Geological Survey)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 17:08:45 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: SIGs
In-Reply-To: <199508281956.PAA06875@monty>
Message-ID: <199508282104.VAA04470@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>


On Mon, 28 Aug 1995 15:56:13 -0400 
Guido van Rossum said:
> Now that Barry's created the matrix and gui sigs, I've added their
> email addresses to the sigs web page on python.org.  I guess Jim
> should prepare a little introduction to be placed in the <topic>.info
> files and also post that to the net so people are aware of the new
> sigs.  (I could then also change the description of the sigs in the
> sigs web page.)

How about:

matrix-sig:

  Special Interest Group for Built-in Matrix Types

    There is growing interest in using Python to interface with
    mathematical and scientific computation libraries.  A commonly
    needed data structure is a matrix of homogenous low-level objects,
    such as numbers.

    The purpose of this special interest group is to develop a
    proposal for and possibly coordinate the implementation of a new
    Python built-in Matrix type.


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From jfulton@usgs.gov  Mon Aug 28 22:10:34 1995
From: jfulton@usgs.gov (Jim Fulton, U.S. Geological Survey)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 17:10:34 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: SIGs
In-Reply-To: <199508281956.PAA06875@monty>
Message-ID: <199508282105.VAA04531@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>


On Mon, 28 Aug 1995 15:56:13 -0400 
Guido van Rossum said:
> Now that Barry's created the matrix and gui sigs, I've added their
> email addresses to the sigs web page on python.org.  I guess Jim
> should prepare a little introduction to be placed in the <topic>.info
> files and also post that to the net so people are aware of the new
> sigs.  (I could then also change the description of the sigs in the
> sigs web page.)

gui-sig:

  Special Interest Group for a Common Python Graphical User Interface

    Over a dozen graphical user-interface Python modules have been
    developed.  While this speaks to the power of Python's extension
    capabilities, there is significant interest in defining a commonly
    available GUI system for Python that would facilitate the
    interchage of and cooperation on tools, such as software
    development environments, that require or benefit from GUI
    interfaces.

    At the second Python workshop there was discussion and nearly
    unanimous agreement on a number of points:

      o A commonly available GUI extension for Python would be a good
        thing to facilitate the sharing of GUI tools and tools that
	use GUIs.
 
      o There is no desire to discourage the developement of other GUI
        extensions. 

      o The extension should run on a variety of platforms (e.g. Unix,
        MS-Windows, Mac, ...?)

      o The extension should be freely available and compilable with
        readily and freely available tools.

      o The extension should preserve native look-and-feel, preferably
        by using native libraries.

      o We hope to compare available extensions at the 3rd Python
        workshop.

      o We need to identify one or more sample applications to be
        developed with the different extensions.

    The purpose of this special interest group is to:

      o Discuss and define sample applications to be used for
        comparing GUI extensions.

      o Coordinate development of sample applications with candidate
        extensions. 

      o Possibly discuss and refine GUI extension requirements.

      o Plan for GUI session at the 3rd workshop.

      o Coordinate selection of the common GUI extension and the 
        development tools based on this extension.

Comments?

(I need to review my notes on the 2nd workshop GUI session, which I
don't have with me.)

Jim

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From guido@cnri.reston.va.us  Mon Aug 28 23:08:49 1995
From: guido@cnri.reston.va.us (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 18:08:49 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: SIGs
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 28 Aug 1995 17:08:45 EDT."
 <199508282104.VAA04470@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>
References: <199508282104.VAA04470@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>
Message-ID: <199508282208.SAA12031@monty>

Jim's sig descriptions are quite a bit longer than what fits in Ken's
original overview of SIGs.

I wonder if I should create subdirectories for each SIG in the sigs
web directory, where each SIG would have its own web page(s)?  I could
start with three subdirectories (meta, matrix, gui) each containing
just an index.html that's the HTML'ified sig description, plus
detailed instructions on how to subscribe (most people don't know
Majordomo commands by heart, so a little handholding won't hurt :-).

Each SIG could then start collecting other relevant things
(e.g. proposals, archives, workshop notes) in its own subdirectory.

What do you meta-guys think?

--Guido van Rossum <guido@CNRI.Reston.VA.US>
URL: <http://www.python.org/~guido/>

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From friedric@rose.rsoc.rockwell.com  Mon Aug 28 23:54:45 1995
From: friedric@rose.rsoc.rockwell.com (Robin Friedrich)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 17:54:45 -0500
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: [PYTHON GUI-SIG]
Message-ID: <9508282254.AA18970@darwin.rsoc.rockwell.com>


Jim's brief looks very good and I thing the web page version of it will be 
an excellant addition to the python.org tree. The GUI stuff especially
has a lot of hyperlink potential so this will definately be good for
browsing newbies.

I'm working on my first wxPython app things are getting interesting!
--------------------------------------------------------------
| Robin K. Friedrich          |   friedric@rsoc.rockwell.com |
| Rockwell Space Operations   |   (713) 282-2974             |
| Houston, TX                 |                              |
--------------------------------------------------------------


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From Paul.Everitt@cminds.com  Mon Aug 28 20:01:43 1995
From: Paul.Everitt@cminds.com (Paul Everitt/Digital Creations)
Date: 28 Aug 95 19:01:43
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Python Locator work
Message-ID: <9508282302.AA3410@phoenix.cminds.com>

Sorry, Barry, misfired on that last one...

Hi everyone.  I've condensed various conversation into a page at:
 http://ralph.digicool.com/psa/python.locator.html

My next task is to fill in some blanks, and write a proposed 
template for the python.org site...

          Paul Everitt


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From Paul.Everitt@cminds.com  Tue Aug 29 07:58:54 1995
From: Paul.Everitt@cminds.com (Paul Everitt/Digital Creations)
Date: 29 Aug 95  6:58:54
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: SIGs
Message-ID: <9508291104.AA3722@phoenix.cminds.com>

Guido--

Yes, I think subdirectories should be made for each of the 
various SIGs.  I will probably end up putting a good number
of things in the locator, I hope.  Plus, I might version my 
proposal, and keep other folks' versions in there too.

--Paul



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From jfulton@usgs.gov  Tue Aug 29 13:20:34 1995
From: jfulton@usgs.gov (Jim Fulton, U.S. Geological Survey)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 08:20:34 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: SIGs
In-Reply-To: <199508282208.SAA12031@monty>
Message-ID: <199508291215.MAA07581@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>


On Mon, 28 Aug 1995 18:08:49 -0400 
Guido van Rossum said:
> Jim's sig descriptions are quite a bit longer than what fits in Ken's
> original overview of SIGs.

Let me know if you need some shorter descriptions.  (If so, let me
know how long.)  
 
> I wonder if I should create subdirectories for each SIG in the sigs
> web directory, where each SIG would have its own web page(s)?  I could
> start with three subdirectories (meta, matrix, gui) each containing
> just an index.html that's the HTML'ified sig description,

Sounds good.

> plus
> detailed instructions on how to subscribe (most people don't know
> Majordomo commands by heart, so a little handholding won't hurt :-).

Absolutely.
 
> Each SIG could then start collecting other relevant things
> (e.g. proposals, archives, workshop notes) in its own subdirectory.
> 
> What do you meta-guys think?

Is there any way to use majordomo to put files in the sig directories?
Perhaps the sig adminstrator could, using their password place files?

Not that I mind getting an account, but I'd have to come up to speed
on the one-time password stuff.

Jim

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From ken.manheimer@nist.gov  Tue Aug 29 16:53:09 1995
From: ken.manheimer@nist.gov (Ken Manheimer)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 11:53:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Python Locator work
In-Reply-To: <9508282302.AA3410@phoenix.cminds.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950829113119.732B-100000@coil.nist.gov>

First of all, it seems to me this discussion warrants a sig mailing-list -
eg, locator-sig.  That'd leave the meta-sig for things that meta more...-)

On Mon, 28 Aug 1995, Paul Everitt/Digital Creations wrote:

> Hi everyone.  I've condensed various conversation into a page at:
>  http://ralph.digicool.com/psa/python.locator.html

(I am able to easily comment on paul's text because i use the emacs w3 
web browser, so i have the text nicely formatted in a buffer, but web 
URL's can be difficult to annotate for discussion.  I think postings to a 
sig mailing list would be easier for discussion sake...)

> [...]
> below so we all agree to the problem statement.  ~Don't get torqued if you
> feel it is condescending! :^)~ Gosh, I'm just trying to be thorough! 

No need to apologize for "thorough" to me, at least - as you probably have
noticed from my postings, i tend (for better or worse) to prefer erring on
the side of thorough, etc... 

> The Python community is growing too big to find things easily.  It is

First of all, nice executive summary.  I would include, at the top there,
a comment that there is great potential benefit, all around, in making it
easier to coordinate the communities' efforts, and to share the products
of the efforts.  Which a good locator mechanism could significantly help 
ennable...

> [...]
> We also need to distribute control.  Centralizing the index means, as in the
> case of whois, that no one ever maintains their entries, and the performance
> becomes wildly unpredicatble.  Thus, the distributed nature of the Python

(I don't mean to be dense, but the word "performance" confuses me, here. 
Do you mean that the accuracy becomes unpredictable, as some entries
become obsolete?)

> Finally, any design choice we make should not be in a vacuum.  Bigger fish
> than the PSA are working on this problem.  Thus, we should try and mirror the
> standards groups and other development, where possible.  

This is great - provided the IAFA are doing a good job, then we should
benefit from exploiting their work.  And i already am sold on harvest. 

> strategy which is nearly comprehensive to the problem domain of the Python
> Locator.  [...]

(Perhaps this would be a less convoluted way to phrase that:
"... strategy which nearly encompasses the Python Locator problem.")

> Looking at the IAFA work, we can start right off the bat with three top-level
> groupings of ~resources~:

> 	o SITE
> 	o USER, ORGANIZATION, SERVICE
> 	o DOCUMENT, IMAGE, SOFTWARE, MAILARCHIVE, USENET, SOUND, VIDEO, FAQ

The division is very similar to the two categories of resource that i
suggested - institution and product - except you separated SITE from the
other institutions.  I suppose you're considering the service/person/
organization more as agencies, while a site is more of a resource for
situating things out on the net - a repository.  So perhaps we can
identify the meta-categories as institutions, products, and repositories. 

> [...]
> For instance, we may need to increase the above list to:
> 
> 	o SITE
> 	o USER, ORGANIZATION, SERVICE
> 	o DOCUMENT, IMAGE, SOFTWARE, MAILARCHIVE, USENET, SOUND, VIDEO, FAQ
> 	o INITIATIVE,SIG

I ~could~ see initiative and sig fitting into my "institution" category. 
Not sure, though.  In any case, if your point is that we need to allow for
extension of the repertoire if/when people come up with resources that
don't fit in the existing ones, then i agree. 

> Next, for each of the above template-types, we need to pick some ~fields~.
> Fortunately, the IAFA does have some suggested fields for each template type.
> We could start with them, and add new ones where appropriate.  For instance,
> in the following, I show supplementary fields in ~italics~:

On quick glance, this all looks good.  Some questions:

 - Is the URI supposed to serve as the unique identifier for the resource?
 - It may be useful to be able to associate "related resources" with
   many of the entry types - eg, USER could include mention of some of
   the prominent projects and products with which the user is, or was,
   involved...
 - In addition to the Publication-Statutes (i presume you meant
   "statutes", not "statues") include a possibly optional "encumberment" 
   field, to indicate licensing, copyright, etc encumberment status.

Altogether, this looks like a real good start - i particularly like
capitalizing on substantial existing mechanisms, like the IAFA stuff
and harvest.  And also providing for catalogue "browsing" as well as
searching...

ken
ken.manheimer@nist.gov, 301 975-3539

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From guido@cnri.reston.va.us  Tue Aug 29 16:55:36 1995
From: guido@cnri.reston.va.us (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 11:55:36 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Python Locator work
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 29 Aug 1995 11:53:09 EDT."
 <Pine.SUN.3.91.950829113119.732B-100000@coil.nist.gov>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950829113119.732B-100000@coil.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <199508291555.LAA15127@monty>

> First of all, it seems to me this discussion warrants a sig mailing-list -
> eg, locator-sig.  That'd leave the meta-sig for things that meta more...-)

Agreed.  Notice that there is already a placeholder for this sig in
the sigs/index.html file!

Otherwise, I also agree with Ken -- the IAFA template idea looks good
(plus we could publish our stuff via ALIWEB!).

Let's go ahead on this one!

--Guido van Rossum <guido@CNRI.Reston.VA.US>
URL: <http://www.python.org/~guido/>

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From jfulton@usgs.gov  Tue Aug 29 17:14:44 1995
From: jfulton@usgs.gov (Jim Fulton, U.S. Geological Survey)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 12:14:44 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] __doc__-string SIG?
Message-ID: <199508291610.QAA24052@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>


Wasn't someone supposed to start a SIG on __doc__-string style (and
perhaps organization) issues?  Or is this part of a broader
documentation sig?

I've been working with __doc__ strings quite a bit lately in
preparation for some software releases and am collecting some
questions and opinions.


-- Jim

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From Paul.Everitt@cminds.com  Tue Aug 29 13:18:08 1995
From: Paul.Everitt@cminds.com (Paul Everitt/Digital Creations)
Date: 29 Aug 95 12:18:08
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Python Locator work
Message-ID: <9508291619.AA0345@phoenix.cminds.com>

Yes, I sent an email to Barry yesterday to get things cranked up, 
and professing my major confusion on how to do it!  Reading old 
email on the SIG creation steps only furthured my density...

So, yes, it is on the way.  Here is my current tasklist:
1) Get the SIG going
2) Comment on Ken's comments
3) Add to the document:
 o corrections
 o more fields
 o discussion of Harvest implementation
 o a sample (5) below
4) I've already sucked over Guido's mail archive, I'll index it later
5) Write a SITE IAFA file for python.org
6) Argue w/ everyone about (4)  :^)
7) Create a few non-python.org IAFA files (e.g. a Digital Creations)
8) Churn all the above into a draft Locator implementation
9) Announce the SIG to a wider audience

--Paul

To: meta-sig @ python.org @ Internet
cc:  (bcc: Paul Everitt/Digital Creations)
From: guido @ cnri.reston.va.us (Guido van Rossum) @ Internet
Date: 08/29/95 11:55:36 AM
Subject: Re: [PYTHON META-SIG] Python Locator work

> First of all, it seems to me this discussion warrants a sig mailing-list -
> eg, locator-sig.  That'd leave the meta-sig for things that meta more...-)

Agreed.  Notice that there is already a placeholder for this sig in
the sigs/index.html file!

Otherwise, I also agree with Ken -- the IAFA template idea looks good
(plus we could publish our stuff via ALIWEB!).

Let's go ahead on this one!

--Guido van Rossum <guido@CNRI.Reston.VA.US>
URL: <http://www.python.org/~guido/>

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From Paul.Everitt@cminds.com  Tue Aug 29 13:19:58 1995
From: Paul.Everitt@cminds.com (Paul Everitt/Digital Creations)
Date: 29 Aug 95 12:19:58
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Q: Form for corporate membership
Message-ID: <9508291622.AA0351@phoenix.cminds.com>

I'm planning to have our company sign up around 5 people
as PSA members.  All we need is an online form that we can
print and use as an "invoice".

I tried looking at some user organizations for an example
that I could create one with, but no luck.  Does anyone know 
if the IETF or something like that have an appropriate 
form PSA could use?

--Paul


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From Barry A. Warsaw" <bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us  Tue Aug 29 18:24:15 1995
From: Barry A. Warsaw" <bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 13:24:15 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Python Locator work
References: <9508291619.AA0345@phoenix.cminds.com>
Message-ID: <9508291724.AA07561@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US>


    Paul> Yes, I sent an email to Barry yesterday to get things
    Paul> cranked up, and professing my major confusion on how to do
    Paul> it!  Reading old email on the SIG creation steps only
    Paul> furthured my density...

Take a look at http://www.python.org/sigs/guidelines.html and let me
know if this clears up any confusion.  Please also let me know if I
left anything out, but this is my current ruleset for new list
creation.

-Barry

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From Barry A. Warsaw" <bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us  Tue Aug 29 18:41:27 1995
From: Barry A. Warsaw" <bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 13:41:27 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: SIGs
References: <199508282208.SAA12031@monty>
 <199508291215.MAA07581@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>
Message-ID: <9508291741.AA07591@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US>


[MAJORDOMO FOOD
 PLEASE
 IGNORE
 THIS
 CRUFT
 -BAW]

    > plus detailed instructions on how to subscribe (most people
    > don't know Majordomo commands by heart, so a little handholding
    > won't hurt :-).

I'll try to glom something up for this, and hang it off of
sigs/index.html.  Unfortunately it looks like Majordomo itself doesn't
have a nice compact end-user guide...

    > Is there any way to use majordomo to put files in the sig
    > directories?  Perhaps the sig adminstrator could, using their
    > password place files?

    > Not that I mind getting an account, but I'd have to come up to
    > speed on the one-time password stuff.

The only file that majordomo itself writes is the sig archive, and I
can direct it to put that anywhere.  However, where md feeds its files
from is pretty specifically laid out, i.e. it feeds the info files
from /home/majordomo/Lists/<topic>.info, and it feeds all other files
out of /home/majordomo/Files/<topic>/*.  So I guess its symlink
heaven, but I'm open to other suggestions.

-Barry

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From ken.manheimer@nist.gov  Tue Aug 29 19:35:04 1995
From: ken.manheimer@nist.gov (Ken Manheimer)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 14:35:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: SIGs
In-Reply-To: <9508291741.AA07591@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950829143120.732D-100000@coil.nist.gov>

On Tue, 29 Aug 1995, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:

> sigs/index.html.  Unfortunately it looks like Majordomo itself doesn't
> have a nice compact end-user guide...

Does majordomo provide a top-level 'help' message?  Maybe there are 
some suitable instructions for joining a list, leaving, etc, in it... 

ken
ken.manheimer@nist.gov, 301 975-3539

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From bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw)  Tue Aug 29 19:47:57 1995
From: bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw) (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 14:47:57 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Quick Guide to Majordomo Commands
Message-ID: <9508291847.AA07621@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US>


Check out http://www.python.org/sigs/md_cmds.html

-Barry

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From ken.manheimer@nist.gov  Tue Aug 29 20:10:32 1995
From: ken.manheimer@nist.gov (Ken Manheimer)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:10:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] __doc__-string SIG?
In-Reply-To: <199508291610.QAA24052@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950829144054.732G-100000@coil.nist.gov>

On Tue, 29 Aug 1995, Jim Fulton, U.S. Geological Survey wrote:

> Wasn't someone supposed to start a SIG on __doc__-string style (and
> perhaps organization) issues?  Or is this part of a broader
> documentation sig?

I would not expect docstrings to warrant a sig of their own.  I could see
it being part of a broader documentation sig, were such a thing in full
swing, but i think at this point, at least, it would be best to just post
your ideas to the list at large. 

Which brings me to ponder exactly when a sig is, and when it is not, 
suitable.

I'm inclined to think ("inclined to think" - odd image:) that sigs should
be reserved for ongoing, specific issues, but that the list-at-large
should be used for everything else:

 - questions (and answers)
 - one-shot, general, and transient discussions
 - announcements of SIG events:
   - introductions of new sigs/sig topics
   - conclusions and intermediate resolutions reached on the SIGs
   - In addition, i think it would be good to have proposals produced in 
     sigs, particularly language-enhancement proposals and such, to be 
     aired on the list at large once they're resolved, and discussed on 
     the list at large, perhaps, for final contributions.
 - flamage and language wars (not!-)

Which also brings me to something i meant to ask - has anyone announced
the new sigs on the list-at-large, or have plans to do so?  I'm thinking
it would be a good idea, and it would be good to take the opportunity to
include a plug for PSA membership along with it.  Which would mean holding
off until paul's efforts to compose some kind of PSA registration form is
done.  Then do a bit of "This is the kind of thing the PSA can do for you
- consider joining, so the PSA can continue!" 

(Ie, mention the fact that the python.org host, the efforts of the people
contributing to the SIGs, and python development in general (guido!) are
all being promoted by the PSA, and we need evidence of people wanting the
service in order to convince our patrons (digital creations, CNRI!) that 
it is worth their while... )

> I've been working with __doc__ strings quite a bit lately in
> preparation for some software releases and am collecting some
> questions and opinions.

I'll be interested to see what's up.  I think your questions and thoughts
about exposing object docstrings (and types) without generating instances
of the objects are important... 

ken
ken.manheimer@nist.gov, 301 975-3539

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From jfulton@usgs.gov  Tue Aug 29 20:34:50 1995
From: jfulton@usgs.gov (Jim Fulton, U.S. Geological Survey)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:34:50 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] __doc__-string SIG?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950829144054.732G-100000@coil.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <199508291930.TAA10840@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>


On Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:10:32 -0400 (EDT) 
Ken Manheimer said:
> On Tue, 29 Aug 1995, Jim Fulton, U.S. Geological Survey wrote:
> 
> > Wasn't someone supposed to start a SIG on __doc__-string style (and
> > perhaps organization) issues?  Or is this part of a broader
> > documentation sig?
> 
> I would not expect docstrings to warrant a sig of their own.  I could see
> it being part of a broader documentation sig, were such a thing in full
> swing, but i think at this point, at least, it would be best to just post
> your ideas to the list at large. 

Hm.  Ok, will do.
 
> Which brings me to ponder exactly when a sig is, and when it is not, 
> suitable.
> 
> I'm inclined to think ("inclined to think" - odd image:) that sigs should
> be reserved for ongoing, specific issues, but that the list-at-large
> should be used for everything else:
> 
>  - questions (and answers)
>  - one-shot, general, and transient discussions
>  - announcements of SIG events:
>    - introductions of new sigs/sig topics
>    - conclusions and intermediate resolutions reached on the SIGs
>    - In addition, i think it would be good to have proposals produced in 
     sigs, particularly language-enhancement proposals and such, to be 
>      aired on the list at large once they're resolved, and discussed on 
>      the list at large, perhaps, for final contributions.
>  - flamage and language wars (not!-)

Agreed.
 
> Which also brings me to something i meant to ask - has anyone announced
> the new sigs on the list-at-large, or have plans to do so? 

I plan to announce the matrix and gui sigs real soon. (I still need to
check my gui-sig writeup against my notes from the workshop.)

> I'm thinking
> it would be a good idea, and it would be good to take the opportunity to
> include a plug for PSA membership along with it.  Which would mean holding
> off until paul's efforts to compose some kind of PSA registration form is
> done.

I'd hate to hold up these two sigs.  There's some desire to get going
with the matrix sig, which after all is a clean and fairly small task.
We really need to get going with the gui work if we are going to be
ready for the next workshop.

> > I've been working with __doc__ strings quite a bit lately in
> > preparation for some software releases and am collecting some
> > questions and opinions.
> 
> I'll be interested to see what's up.  I think your questions and thoughts
> about exposing object docstrings (and types) without generating instances
> of the objects are important... 

Cool.  But there hasn't been much comment on the list.  (I did get a
note from Don Beaudry.)  I'll post my recent experiences with an
interim "solution" soon.

Jim

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From Paul.Everitt@cminds.com  Tue Aug 29 16:33:47 1995
From: Paul.Everitt@cminds.com (Paul Everitt/Digital Creations)
Date: 29 Aug 95 15:33:47
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Python Locator work
Message-ID: <9508291935.AA0558@phoenix.cminds.com>

Programming notes:
1) This will be the last post in the meta-sig.  With some patience from 
Barry, I might just figure out this high-falutin' teknowleegie yet.
2) Check out a perl implementation (rather old, I believe) of an IAFA search 
engine
at:
 http://www.ai.mit.edu/tools/site-index.html

Ken writes:

> First of all, it seems to me this discussion warrants a sig mailing-list -
> eg, locator-sig.  That'd leave the meta-sig for things that meta more...-)

Hargh hargh...many yucks.

> On Mon, 28 Aug 1995, Paul Everitt/Digital Creations wrote:
> 
> > Hi everyone.  I've condensed various conversation into a page at:
> >  http://ralph.digicool.com/psa/python.locator.html
> 
> (I am able to easily comment on paul's text because i use the emacs w3 
> web browser, so i have the text nicely formatted in a buffer, but web 
> URL's can be difficult to annotate for discussion.  I think postings to a 
> sig mailing list would be easier for discussion sake...)

My role will be to compile the discussed changes back into the 
original.
 
> > [...]
> > below so we all agree to the problem statement.  ~Don't get torqued if you
> > feel it is condescending! :^)~ Gosh, I'm just trying to be thorough! 
> 
> No need to apologize for "thorough" to me, at least - as you probably have
> noticed from my postings, i tend (for better or worse) to prefer erring on
> the side of thorough, etc... 

Yes, Ken, and that is the same type of fascination for classifying that 
has turned me into a Harvest junkie!

> > The Python community is growing too big to find things easily.  It is
> 
> First of all, nice executive summary.  I would include, at the top there,
> a comment that there is great potential benefit, all around, in making it
> easier to coordinate the communities' efforts, and to share the products
> of the efforts.  Which a good locator mechanism could significantly help 
> ennable...

Good point...and worked in.

>> [...]
> > We also need to distribute control.  Centralizing the index means, as in the
> > case of whois, that no one ever maintains their entries, and the performance
> > becomes wildly unpredicatble.  Thus, the distributed nature of the Python
> 
> (I don't mean to be dense, but the word "performance" confuses me, here. 
> Do you mean that the accuracy becomes unpredictable, as some entries
> become obsolete?)

No, that was implied in the first half.  I'll change the sentence to:
"Centralizing the index means, as in the case of whois, that no one ever 
maintains their entries, and the data becomes dirty, therefore rendering it
useless.  Also, the response time on a central index becomes wildly 
unpredictable.  Thus, ..."
 
> > Finally, any design choice we make should not be in a vacuum.  Bigger fish
> > than the PSA are working on this problem.  Thus, we should try and mirror 
the
> > standards groups and other development, where possible.  
> 
> This is great - provided the IAFA are doing a good job, then we should
> benefit from exploiting their work.  And i already am sold on harvest. 

It is within debate as to whether the IAFA work is successful.  From my 
limited knowledge though, I think they have done a nice balance of structure
and flexibility.  Plus, with Bunyip (of Archie fame) on board, they seem to 
have a good pedigree.

> > strategy which is nearly comprehensive to the problem domain of the Python
> > Locator.  [...]
> 
> (Perhaps this would be a less convoluted way to phrase that:
> "... strategy which nearly encompasses the Python Locator problem.")

Agreed, and changed.
 
> > Looking at the IAFA work, we can start right off the bat with three 
top-level
> > groupings of ~resources~:
> 
> >  o SITE
> >  o USER, ORGANIZATION, SERVICE
> >  o DOCUMENT, IMAGE, SOFTWARE, MAILARCHIVE, USENET, SOUND, VIDEO, FAQ
> 
> The division is very similar to the two categories of resource that i
> suggested - institution and product - except you separated SITE from the
> other institutions.  I suppose you're considering the service/person/
> organization more as agencies, while a site is more of a resource for
> situating things out on the net - a repository.  So perhaps we can
> identify the meta-categories as institutions, products, and repositories. 

The reason SITE is separated on my list is that site connotes a 
place where you can actually get things.  It is more of a placeholder, 
and doesn't give you any specifics.

The other reason is that this is the way the IAFA docs are written.  I'd like
avoid writing my own documentation, and I presume that these folks have 
some good reasons.  If we don't have SITE, then I am nearly positive that 
the existing IAFA collection software won't work.

So, as this is the first mandatory IAFA element, I'm motion to keep it.

> > [...]
> > For instance, we may need to increase the above list to:
> > 
> >  o SITE
> >  o USER, ORGANIZATION, SERVICE
> >  o DOCUMENT, IMAGE, SOFTWARE, MAILARCHIVE, USENET, SOUND, VIDEO, FAQ
> >  o INITIATIVE,SIG
> 
> I ~could~ see initiative and sig fitting into my "institution" category. 
> Not sure, though.  In any case, if your point is that we need to allow for
> extension of the repertoire if/when people come up with resources that
> don't fit in the existing ones, then i agree. 

Sounds like agreement.  So, it looks like there are really just two 
types of templates for us: the IAFA ones, and our extended ones.

> > Next, for each of the above template-types, we need to pick some ~fields~.
> > Fortunately, the IAFA does have some suggested fields for each template 
type.
> > We could start with them, and add new ones where appropriate.  For instance,
> > in the following, I show supplementary fields in ~italics~:
> 
> On quick glance, this all looks good.  Some questions:
> 
>  - Is the URI supposed to serve as the unique identifier for the resource?

Yep.  For now, it maps directly into a URL.

>  - It may be useful to be able to associate "related resources" with
>    many of the entry types - eg, USER could include mention of some of
>    the prominent projects and products with which the user is, or was,
>    involved...

In the IAFA RFC, there is a construct for this called "cluster":
"There are certain classes of data elements, such as contact
information, which occur every time an individual, group or
organization needs to be described. Such data as names,
telephone numbers, postal and email addresses etc. fall into
this category. To avoid repeating these common elements
explicitly in every template below, we define "clusters"
which can then be referred to in a shorthand manner in the
actual template definitions. "

So, we can thing of these as "pointers" to other defined templates.

>  - In addition to the Publication-Statutes (i presume you meant
>    "statutes", not "statues") include a possibly optional "encumberment" 
>    field, to indicate licensing, copyright, etc encumberment status.

Actually, that was a typo: it is Publication-Status.  It is corrected.

There are many types of fields suggested in the IAFA examples.  Many 
are geared at for-fee sites that may have restrictions.  I may try to put a 
list 
of suggested fields into the taxonomy.

> Altogether, this looks like a real good start - i particularly like
> capitalizing on substantial existing mechanisms, like the IAFA stuff
> and harvest.  And also providing for catalogue "browsing" as well as
> searching...

Thanks, I wanted to get it out, and find out if I was out to lunch or 
not.  There will be some groovy things come out in the 
implementation, so stay tuned!

--Paul


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From ken.manheimer@nist.gov  Tue Aug 29 20:49:39 1995
From: ken.manheimer@nist.gov (Ken Manheimer)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:49:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] __doc__-string SIG?
In-Reply-To: <199508291930.TAA10840@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950829154430.732K-100000@coil.nist.gov>

On Tue, 29 Aug 1995, Jim Fulton, U.S. Geological Survey wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:10:32 -0400 (EDT) Ken Manheimer said:
> > I'm thinking
> > it would be a good idea, and it would be good to take the opportunity to
> > include a plug for PSA membership along with it.  Which would mean holding
> > off until paul's efforts to compose some kind of PSA registration form is
> > done.
> 
> I'd hate to hold up these two sigs.  There's some desire to get going
> with the matrix sig, which after all is a clean and fairly small task.
> We really need to get going with the gui work if we are going to be
> ready for the next workshop.

That seems fine - on thinking about it, i realize there's no need to hold 
up anything.  Once the membership stuff is ready, people will be familiar 
with sigs, python.org, etc, and we can start announcing the membership, 
and maybe including mention of it with new service announcements...

> > I'll be interested to see what's up.  I think your questions and thoughts
> > about exposing object docstrings (and types) without generating instances
> > of the objects are important... 
> 
> Cool.  But there hasn't been much comment on the list.  (I did get a
> note from Don Beaudry.)  I'll post my recent experiences with an
> interim "solution" soon.

Interesting to hear sign of don beaudry - he's been real scarce since he
changed jobs, and i can't help wonder what's going to be the fate of the
ever-delayed release of his type-extension hacks... 

ken
ken.manheimer@nist.gov, 301 975-3539

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From Paul.Everitt@cminds.com  Tue Aug 29 17:08:28 1995
From: Paul.Everitt@cminds.com (Paul Everitt/Digital Creations)
Date: 29 Aug 95 16:08:28
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] __doc__-string SIG?
Message-ID: <9508292008.AA0601@phoenix.cminds.com>

> That seems fine - on thinking about it, i realize there's no need to hold 
> up anything.  Once the membership stuff is ready, people will be familiar 
> with sigs, python.org, etc, and we can start announcing the membership, 
> and maybe including mention of it with new service announcements...

OK, OK, I just sent in to Barry to get things started...!


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From jfulton@usgs.gov  Tue Aug 29 21:12:34 1995
From: jfulton@usgs.gov (Jim Fulton, U.S. Geological Survey)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 16:12:34 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] __doc__-string SIG?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950829154430.732K-100000@coil.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <199508292007.UAA13737@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>


On Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:49:39 -0400 (EDT) 
Ken Manheimer said:
> On Tue, 29 Aug 1995, Jim Fulton, U.S. Geological Survey wrote:
> 
> Interesting to hear sign of don beaudry - he's been real scarce since he
> changed jobs, and i can't help wonder what's going to be the fate of the
> ever-delayed release of his type-extension hacks... 

He still plans to release them.  He offered to let me try them out,
but I don't know when I'll have time. Sounds like his new job at SGI
(not in the group working with Python) is keeping him pretty busy.

Jim

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From bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw)  Wed Aug 30 00:41:12 1995
From: bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw) (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 19:41:12 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Python Locator work
References: <9508292006.AA0595@phoenix.cminds.com>
Message-ID: <9508292341.AA01558@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US>


    Paul> OK, I'm ready be a grown-up and run my own SIG!

Cool!  I've just created the locator-sig mailing list.

    Paul> Some notes:
    Paul> 1) I put my email address as the owner.

Sorry, I changed it back.  I left your personal address in the info
file, but I wasn't too sure about that either.  In any case, I put
locator-sig-owner as the Owner, and made an alias to paul@digicool.com
in the /etc/aliases file.

There is currently no one on the list at the moment.  Go ahead and try
to subscribe yourself.  Give me a call tomorrow (703-620-8990) and
I'll give you the sig password.

-Barry

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From Barry A. Warsaw" <bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us  Wed Aug 30 00:45:59 1995
From: Barry A. Warsaw" <bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 19:45:59 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] __doc__-string SIG?
References: <199508291610.QAA24052@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>
 <Pine.SUN.3.91.950829144054.732G-100000@coil.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <9508292345.AA01565@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US>


>>>>> "KM" == Ken Manheimer <klm@nist.gov> writes:

    KM> I'm inclined to think ("inclined to think" - odd image:) that

I'm usually reclined to think. :-)

    KM> Which also brings me to something i meant to ask - has anyone
    KM> announced the new sigs on the list-at-large, or have plans to
    KM> do so?

The list owners should do this, but we might need a mechanism where we
can periodically remind the list-at-large of these sigs' existance.
Perhaps it's enough to just post periodic updates from the sigs.
    
-Barry

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From Paul.Everitt@cminds.com  Wed Aug 30 08:50:05 1995
From: Paul.Everitt@cminds.com (Paul Everitt/Digital Creations)
Date: 30 Aug 95  7:50:05
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] FWD: New WWW Browser, SurfIt!
Message-ID: <9508301212.AA1089@phoenix.cminds.com>

Gee, now isn't that interesting...

To: www-talk @ w3.org @ Internet
cc:  (bcc: Paul Everitt/Digital Creations)
From: Steve.Ball @ pastime.anu.edu.au (Steve) @ Internet
Date: 08/30/95 10:09:05 AM
Subject: New WWW Browser, SurfIt!

The All-Tcl (all-sining, all-dancing) SurfIt! Web browser.
  Version 0.3alpha

SurfIt! is a new World Wide Web browser implemented entirely 
using the Tcl/Tk language and toolkit.  I have uploaded it to 
ftp.aud.alcatel.com:/tcl/incoming, but in the meantime you can 
also get it from pastime.anu.edu.au:/pub/SurfIt/surfit-0.3.tar.gz

This initial public release is ALPHA quality, mainly since there 
is much work to do in defining the applet/hypertool APIs.  
It is being released in this form to get some feedback from the 
Tcl/WWW community.  I intend to do alot of cleaning up of the
distribution in later releases to make it easier to install and 
run the browser.  Given that there is no C code involved, it 
should run on any platform that supports Tcl/Tk, and should be
easy to port to the Mac & Windows versions of Tcl/Tk when they
become available from Sun Labs.

The browser is based upon Stephen Uhler's (infamous :-) Tcl HTML 
parser, which will parse HTML v1.0 and some HTML v2.0 elements.  
I have enhanced this with a subset of HTML v3.0 tables.  
The goal is for the parser to eventually be completely HTML v3.0 
compliant.  Given that Tcl allows rapid prototyping I expect to be
able to quickly add support for draft standards as they emerge
(once I've caught up with the current standards ;-)
SurfIt! also handles inline GIF, PPM and X bitmap images.

The most interesting aspect of SurfIt! is that it will download 
and execute Tcl scripts (aka "Applets").  SurfIt! uses Jacob Levy's 
Safe-Tcl extension (v0.2) to ensure that foreign, untrusted scripts 
cannot compromise the security of the computer that the browser 
is running on.

Some demonstration applets may be found at: 
<URL: http://pastime.anu.edu.au/SurfIt/>

I am also very interested in developing a suite of hypertools.  
I'm currently working on the Plateau Multimedia Group's cmplayer 
application.  Others will include exmh and nn-tk.

CONTACT
=======

If you have any problems, wish to discuss some aspect of the browser,
or have done some hacking and want to contribute some code then feel 
free to contact me.

EMail: Steve.Ball@pastime.anu.edu.au
WWW: http://pastime.anu.edu.au/steve/
Phone: +61 6 249 5146
Snail: PASTIME Project, ACSys CRC.
 Australian National University
 ACTON 0200 ACT
 AUSTRALIA

ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS
================

The author wishes to acknowledge the support provided by the 
Cooperative Research Centre for Advanced Computational Systems 
established under the Australian Government's Cooperative Research 
Centres Programme.

This project is a collaborative effort with the Tcl group of
Sun Microsystems Laboratories.  In particular Stephen Uhler and Jacob Levy
have provided much help and advice (many thanks!).  I'd also like to thank
John Ousterhout for his help and encouragement.

---

ANNOUNCEMENT,v 1.2 1995/08/29 23:40:43 steve Exp
 



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From Paul.Everitt@cminds.com  Wed Aug 30 11:54:48 1995
From: Paul.Everitt@cminds.com (Paul Everitt/Digital Creations)
Date: 30 Aug 95 10:54:48
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Pending announcement of Python Locator SIG
Message-ID: <9508301455.AA1187@phoenix.cminds.com>

OK, Barry has graciously helped me through the creation of the SIG.
Actually, all the online docs Barry wrote are perfect.

So, my "resting place" for the Locator is:
 http://ralph.digicool.com/psa/locator/
I'll wait til this afternoon for opinions, then make an announcement.  
There is already a person signed up, in addition to me!

--Paul

          Paul Everitt


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From Barry A. Warsaw" <bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us  Mon Aug 28 16:56:29 1995
From: Barry A. Warsaw" <bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 11:56:29 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: SIGs
References: <199508261517.PAA08198@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>
Message-ID: <9508281556.AA00400@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US>


>>>>> "Jim" == Jim Fulton, U S Geological Survey <jfulton@usgs.gov> writes:

    Jim> Could you establish the matrix-sig and gui-sig mailing lists
    Jim> so that we could proceed with these discussions?
    Jim> Alternatively, I could establish these on my machine.

    Jim> Also, were you going to set these up with archives?  I'd like
    Jim> to have them automatically archived, possibly with the
    Jim> WWW-front end.

    Jim> Also, could you send me the sign-up instructions so that I
    Jim> can announce the mailing lists in the newsgroup?

Jim,

My apologies for letting this slide.  I got swamped and your message
got buried in my Inbox.

I've just created both the gui-sig and matrix-sig mailing lists on
python.org.  They essentially mirror the existing meta-sig list,
except that I've made you (jfulton@usgs.gov) the owner of both lists.
Although it appears you don't currently have an account on python.org,
I'm not opposed to giving you one.  Let's talk out of band about this.
Give me a call (703-620-8990) and I'll also give you the lists'
passwords so you can do remote administrivia with the lists.

As I mentioned in my meta-sig postings (see the archives under
meta-sig-request@python.org),  messages go to <topic>-sig@python.org
and administrivia (adds, deletes, md commands) go to
<topic>-sig-request@python.org, where <topic> here is `gui' or
`matrix'.  I've put a boilerplate .config, .info, and .passwd file in
place for both lists, though I'm sure you'll want to edit the
<topic>.info file.

Both lists are archived, and can be retrieved with the md `file'
command sent to the list's administrivia account.  Both lists
currently have empty subscription lists, so you'll have to add even
yourself.  Just send the message `subscribe' in the *body* of your
message to <topic>-sig-request@python.org.

That's everything I can think of.  If you have any problems, you can
contact me directly and we'll iron out the problems.

Again, sorry for the delay.

-Barry

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From guido@cnri.reston.va.us  Mon Aug 28 20:56:13 1995
From: guido@cnri.reston.va.us (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 15:56:13 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: SIGs
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 28 Aug 1995 11:56:29 EDT."
 <9508281556.AA00400@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US>
References: <199508261517.PAA08198@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>  <9508281556.AA00400@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US>
Message-ID: <199508281956.PAA06875@monty>

Now that Barry's created the matrix and gui sigs, I've added their
email addresses to the sigs web page on python.org.  I guess Jim
should prepare a little introduction to be placed in the <topic>.info
files and also post that to the net so people are aware of the new
sigs.  (I could then also change the description of the sigs in the
sigs web page.)

--Guido van Rossum <guido@CNRI.Reston.VA.US>
URL: <http://www.python.org/~guido/>

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From jfulton@usgs.gov  Mon Aug 28 22:08:45 1995
From: jfulton@usgs.gov (Jim Fulton, U.S. Geological Survey)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 17:08:45 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: SIGs
In-Reply-To: <199508281956.PAA06875@monty>
Message-ID: <199508282104.VAA04470@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>


On Mon, 28 Aug 1995 15:56:13 -0400 
Guido van Rossum said:
> Now that Barry's created the matrix and gui sigs, I've added their
> email addresses to the sigs web page on python.org.  I guess Jim
> should prepare a little introduction to be placed in the <topic>.info
> files and also post that to the net so people are aware of the new
> sigs.  (I could then also change the description of the sigs in the
> sigs web page.)

How about:

matrix-sig:

  Special Interest Group for Built-in Matrix Types

    There is growing interest in using Python to interface with
    mathematical and scientific computation libraries.  A commonly
    needed data structure is a matrix of homogenous low-level objects,
    such as numbers.

    The purpose of this special interest group is to develop a
    proposal for and possibly coordinate the implementation of a new
    Python built-in Matrix type.


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From jfulton@usgs.gov  Mon Aug 28 22:10:34 1995
From: jfulton@usgs.gov (Jim Fulton, U.S. Geological Survey)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 17:10:34 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: SIGs
In-Reply-To: <199508281956.PAA06875@monty>
Message-ID: <199508282105.VAA04531@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>


On Mon, 28 Aug 1995 15:56:13 -0400 
Guido van Rossum said:
> Now that Barry's created the matrix and gui sigs, I've added their
> email addresses to the sigs web page on python.org.  I guess Jim
> should prepare a little introduction to be placed in the <topic>.info
> files and also post that to the net so people are aware of the new
> sigs.  (I could then also change the description of the sigs in the
> sigs web page.)

gui-sig:

  Special Interest Group for a Common Python Graphical User Interface

    Over a dozen graphical user-interface Python modules have been
    developed.  While this speaks to the power of Python's extension
    capabilities, there is significant interest in defining a commonly
    available GUI system for Python that would facilitate the
    interchage of and cooperation on tools, such as software
    development environments, that require or benefit from GUI
    interfaces.

    At the second Python workshop there was discussion and nearly
    unanimous agreement on a number of points:

      o A commonly available GUI extension for Python would be a good
        thing to facilitate the sharing of GUI tools and tools that
	use GUIs.
 
      o There is no desire to discourage the developement of other GUI
        extensions. 

      o The extension should run on a variety of platforms (e.g. Unix,
        MS-Windows, Mac, ...?)

      o The extension should be freely available and compilable with
        readily and freely available tools.

      o The extension should preserve native look-and-feel, preferably
        by using native libraries.

      o We hope to compare available extensions at the 3rd Python
        workshop.

      o We need to identify one or more sample applications to be
        developed with the different extensions.

    The purpose of this special interest group is to:

      o Discuss and define sample applications to be used for
        comparing GUI extensions.

      o Coordinate development of sample applications with candidate
        extensions. 

      o Possibly discuss and refine GUI extension requirements.

      o Plan for GUI session at the 3rd workshop.

      o Coordinate selection of the common GUI extension and the 
        development tools based on this extension.

Comments?

(I need to review my notes on the 2nd workshop GUI session, which I
don't have with me.)

Jim

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From guido@cnri.reston.va.us  Mon Aug 28 23:08:49 1995
From: guido@cnri.reston.va.us (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 18:08:49 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: SIGs
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 28 Aug 1995 17:08:45 EDT."
 <199508282104.VAA04470@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>
References: <199508282104.VAA04470@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>
Message-ID: <199508282208.SAA12031@monty>

Jim's sig descriptions are quite a bit longer than what fits in Ken's
original overview of SIGs.

I wonder if I should create subdirectories for each SIG in the sigs
web directory, where each SIG would have its own web page(s)?  I could
start with three subdirectories (meta, matrix, gui) each containing
just an index.html that's the HTML'ified sig description, plus
detailed instructions on how to subscribe (most people don't know
Majordomo commands by heart, so a little handholding won't hurt :-).

Each SIG could then start collecting other relevant things
(e.g. proposals, archives, workshop notes) in its own subdirectory.

What do you meta-guys think?

--Guido van Rossum <guido@CNRI.Reston.VA.US>
URL: <http://www.python.org/~guido/>

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From friedric@rose.rsoc.rockwell.com  Mon Aug 28 23:54:45 1995
From: friedric@rose.rsoc.rockwell.com (Robin Friedrich)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 17:54:45 -0500
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: [PYTHON GUI-SIG]
Message-ID: <9508282254.AA18970@darwin.rsoc.rockwell.com>


Jim's brief looks very good and I thing the web page version of it will be 
an excellant addition to the python.org tree. The GUI stuff especially
has a lot of hyperlink potential so this will definately be good for
browsing newbies.

I'm working on my first wxPython app things are getting interesting!
--------------------------------------------------------------
| Robin K. Friedrich          |   friedric@rsoc.rockwell.com |
| Rockwell Space Operations   |   (713) 282-2974             |
| Houston, TX                 |                              |
--------------------------------------------------------------


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From Paul.Everitt@cminds.com  Mon Aug 28 20:01:43 1995
From: Paul.Everitt@cminds.com (Paul Everitt/Digital Creations)
Date: 28 Aug 95 19:01:43
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Python Locator work
Message-ID: <9508282302.AA3410@phoenix.cminds.com>

Sorry, Barry, misfired on that last one...

Hi everyone.  I've condensed various conversation into a page at:
 http://ralph.digicool.com/psa/python.locator.html

My next task is to fill in some blanks, and write a proposed 
template for the python.org site...

          Paul Everitt


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From Paul.Everitt@cminds.com  Tue Aug 29 07:58:54 1995
From: Paul.Everitt@cminds.com (Paul Everitt/Digital Creations)
Date: 29 Aug 95  6:58:54
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: SIGs
Message-ID: <9508291104.AA3722@phoenix.cminds.com>

Guido--

Yes, I think subdirectories should be made for each of the 
various SIGs.  I will probably end up putting a good number
of things in the locator, I hope.  Plus, I might version my 
proposal, and keep other folks' versions in there too.

--Paul



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From jfulton@usgs.gov  Tue Aug 29 13:20:34 1995
From: jfulton@usgs.gov (Jim Fulton, U.S. Geological Survey)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 08:20:34 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: SIGs
In-Reply-To: <199508282208.SAA12031@monty>
Message-ID: <199508291215.MAA07581@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>


On Mon, 28 Aug 1995 18:08:49 -0400 
Guido van Rossum said:
> Jim's sig descriptions are quite a bit longer than what fits in Ken's
> original overview of SIGs.

Let me know if you need some shorter descriptions.  (If so, let me
know how long.)  
 
> I wonder if I should create subdirectories for each SIG in the sigs
> web directory, where each SIG would have its own web page(s)?  I could
> start with three subdirectories (meta, matrix, gui) each containing
> just an index.html that's the HTML'ified sig description,

Sounds good.

> plus
> detailed instructions on how to subscribe (most people don't know
> Majordomo commands by heart, so a little handholding won't hurt :-).

Absolutely.
 
> Each SIG could then start collecting other relevant things
> (e.g. proposals, archives, workshop notes) in its own subdirectory.
> 
> What do you meta-guys think?

Is there any way to use majordomo to put files in the sig directories?
Perhaps the sig adminstrator could, using their password place files?

Not that I mind getting an account, but I'd have to come up to speed
on the one-time password stuff.

Jim

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From ken.manheimer@nist.gov  Tue Aug 29 16:53:09 1995
From: ken.manheimer@nist.gov (Ken Manheimer)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 11:53:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Python Locator work
In-Reply-To: <9508282302.AA3410@phoenix.cminds.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950829113119.732B-100000@coil.nist.gov>

First of all, it seems to me this discussion warrants a sig mailing-list -
eg, locator-sig.  That'd leave the meta-sig for things that meta more...-)

On Mon, 28 Aug 1995, Paul Everitt/Digital Creations wrote:

> Hi everyone.  I've condensed various conversation into a page at:
>  http://ralph.digicool.com/psa/python.locator.html

(I am able to easily comment on paul's text because i use the emacs w3 
web browser, so i have the text nicely formatted in a buffer, but web 
URL's can be difficult to annotate for discussion.  I think postings to a 
sig mailing list would be easier for discussion sake...)

> [...]
> below so we all agree to the problem statement.  ~Don't get torqued if you
> feel it is condescending! :^)~ Gosh, I'm just trying to be thorough! 

No need to apologize for "thorough" to me, at least - as you probably have
noticed from my postings, i tend (for better or worse) to prefer erring on
the side of thorough, etc... 

> The Python community is growing too big to find things easily.  It is

First of all, nice executive summary.  I would include, at the top there,
a comment that there is great potential benefit, all around, in making it
easier to coordinate the communities' efforts, and to share the products
of the efforts.  Which a good locator mechanism could significantly help 
ennable...

> [...]
> We also need to distribute control.  Centralizing the index means, as in the
> case of whois, that no one ever maintains their entries, and the performance
> becomes wildly unpredicatble.  Thus, the distributed nature of the Python

(I don't mean to be dense, but the word "performance" confuses me, here. 
Do you mean that the accuracy becomes unpredictable, as some entries
become obsolete?)

> Finally, any design choice we make should not be in a vacuum.  Bigger fish
> than the PSA are working on this problem.  Thus, we should try and mirror the
> standards groups and other development, where possible.  

This is great - provided the IAFA are doing a good job, then we should
benefit from exploiting their work.  And i already am sold on harvest. 

> strategy which is nearly comprehensive to the problem domain of the Python
> Locator.  [...]

(Perhaps this would be a less convoluted way to phrase that:
"... strategy which nearly encompasses the Python Locator problem.")

> Looking at the IAFA work, we can start right off the bat with three top-level
> groupings of ~resources~:

> 	o SITE
> 	o USER, ORGANIZATION, SERVICE
> 	o DOCUMENT, IMAGE, SOFTWARE, MAILARCHIVE, USENET, SOUND, VIDEO, FAQ

The division is very similar to the two categories of resource that i
suggested - institution and product - except you separated SITE from the
other institutions.  I suppose you're considering the service/person/
organization more as agencies, while a site is more of a resource for
situating things out on the net - a repository.  So perhaps we can
identify the meta-categories as institutions, products, and repositories. 

> [...]
> For instance, we may need to increase the above list to:
> 
> 	o SITE
> 	o USER, ORGANIZATION, SERVICE
> 	o DOCUMENT, IMAGE, SOFTWARE, MAILARCHIVE, USENET, SOUND, VIDEO, FAQ
> 	o INITIATIVE,SIG

I ~could~ see initiative and sig fitting into my "institution" category. 
Not sure, though.  In any case, if your point is that we need to allow for
extension of the repertoire if/when people come up with resources that
don't fit in the existing ones, then i agree. 

> Next, for each of the above template-types, we need to pick some ~fields~.
> Fortunately, the IAFA does have some suggested fields for each template type.
> We could start with them, and add new ones where appropriate.  For instance,
> in the following, I show supplementary fields in ~italics~:

On quick glance, this all looks good.  Some questions:

 - Is the URI supposed to serve as the unique identifier for the resource?
 - It may be useful to be able to associate "related resources" with
   many of the entry types - eg, USER could include mention of some of
   the prominent projects and products with which the user is, or was,
   involved...
 - In addition to the Publication-Statutes (i presume you meant
   "statutes", not "statues") include a possibly optional "encumberment" 
   field, to indicate licensing, copyright, etc encumberment status.

Altogether, this looks like a real good start - i particularly like
capitalizing on substantial existing mechanisms, like the IAFA stuff
and harvest.  And also providing for catalogue "browsing" as well as
searching...

ken
ken.manheimer@nist.gov, 301 975-3539

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From guido@cnri.reston.va.us  Tue Aug 29 16:55:36 1995
From: guido@cnri.reston.va.us (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 11:55:36 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Python Locator work
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 29 Aug 1995 11:53:09 EDT."
 <Pine.SUN.3.91.950829113119.732B-100000@coil.nist.gov>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950829113119.732B-100000@coil.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <199508291555.LAA15127@monty>

> First of all, it seems to me this discussion warrants a sig mailing-list -
> eg, locator-sig.  That'd leave the meta-sig for things that meta more...-)

Agreed.  Notice that there is already a placeholder for this sig in
the sigs/index.html file!

Otherwise, I also agree with Ken -- the IAFA template idea looks good
(plus we could publish our stuff via ALIWEB!).

Let's go ahead on this one!

--Guido van Rossum <guido@CNRI.Reston.VA.US>
URL: <http://www.python.org/~guido/>

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From jfulton@usgs.gov  Tue Aug 29 17:14:44 1995
From: jfulton@usgs.gov (Jim Fulton, U.S. Geological Survey)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 12:14:44 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] __doc__-string SIG?
Message-ID: <199508291610.QAA24052@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>


Wasn't someone supposed to start a SIG on __doc__-string style (and
perhaps organization) issues?  Or is this part of a broader
documentation sig?

I've been working with __doc__ strings quite a bit lately in
preparation for some software releases and am collecting some
questions and opinions.


-- Jim

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From Paul.Everitt@cminds.com  Tue Aug 29 13:18:08 1995
From: Paul.Everitt@cminds.com (Paul Everitt/Digital Creations)
Date: 29 Aug 95 12:18:08
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Python Locator work
Message-ID: <9508291619.AA0345@phoenix.cminds.com>

Yes, I sent an email to Barry yesterday to get things cranked up, 
and professing my major confusion on how to do it!  Reading old 
email on the SIG creation steps only furthured my density...

So, yes, it is on the way.  Here is my current tasklist:
1) Get the SIG going
2) Comment on Ken's comments
3) Add to the document:
 o corrections
 o more fields
 o discussion of Harvest implementation
 o a sample (5) below
4) I've already sucked over Guido's mail archive, I'll index it later
5) Write a SITE IAFA file for python.org
6) Argue w/ everyone about (4)  :^)
7) Create a few non-python.org IAFA files (e.g. a Digital Creations)
8) Churn all the above into a draft Locator implementation
9) Announce the SIG to a wider audience

--Paul

To: meta-sig @ python.org @ Internet
cc:  (bcc: Paul Everitt/Digital Creations)
From: guido @ cnri.reston.va.us (Guido van Rossum) @ Internet
Date: 08/29/95 11:55:36 AM
Subject: Re: [PYTHON META-SIG] Python Locator work

> First of all, it seems to me this discussion warrants a sig mailing-list -
> eg, locator-sig.  That'd leave the meta-sig for things that meta more...-)

Agreed.  Notice that there is already a placeholder for this sig in
the sigs/index.html file!

Otherwise, I also agree with Ken -- the IAFA template idea looks good
(plus we could publish our stuff via ALIWEB!).

Let's go ahead on this one!

--Guido van Rossum <guido@CNRI.Reston.VA.US>
URL: <http://www.python.org/~guido/>

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From Paul.Everitt@cminds.com  Tue Aug 29 13:19:58 1995
From: Paul.Everitt@cminds.com (Paul Everitt/Digital Creations)
Date: 29 Aug 95 12:19:58
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Q: Form for corporate membership
Message-ID: <9508291622.AA0351@phoenix.cminds.com>

I'm planning to have our company sign up around 5 people
as PSA members.  All we need is an online form that we can
print and use as an "invoice".

I tried looking at some user organizations for an example
that I could create one with, but no luck.  Does anyone know 
if the IETF or something like that have an appropriate 
form PSA could use?

--Paul


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From Barry A. Warsaw" <bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us  Tue Aug 29 18:24:15 1995
From: Barry A. Warsaw" <bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 13:24:15 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Python Locator work
References: <9508291619.AA0345@phoenix.cminds.com>
Message-ID: <9508291724.AA07561@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US>


    Paul> Yes, I sent an email to Barry yesterday to get things
    Paul> cranked up, and professing my major confusion on how to do
    Paul> it!  Reading old email on the SIG creation steps only
    Paul> furthured my density...

Take a look at http://www.python.org/sigs/guidelines.html and let me
know if this clears up any confusion.  Please also let me know if I
left anything out, but this is my current ruleset for new list
creation.

-Barry

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From Barry A. Warsaw" <bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us  Tue Aug 29 18:41:27 1995
From: Barry A. Warsaw" <bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 13:41:27 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: SIGs
References: <199508282208.SAA12031@monty>
 <199508291215.MAA07581@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>
Message-ID: <9508291741.AA07591@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US>


[MAJORDOMO FOOD
 PLEASE
 IGNORE
 THIS
 CRUFT
 -BAW]

    > plus detailed instructions on how to subscribe (most people
    > don't know Majordomo commands by heart, so a little handholding
    > won't hurt :-).

I'll try to glom something up for this, and hang it off of
sigs/index.html.  Unfortunately it looks like Majordomo itself doesn't
have a nice compact end-user guide...

    > Is there any way to use majordomo to put files in the sig
    > directories?  Perhaps the sig adminstrator could, using their
    > password place files?

    > Not that I mind getting an account, but I'd have to come up to
    > speed on the one-time password stuff.

The only file that majordomo itself writes is the sig archive, and I
can direct it to put that anywhere.  However, where md feeds its files
from is pretty specifically laid out, i.e. it feeds the info files
from /home/majordomo/Lists/<topic>.info, and it feeds all other files
out of /home/majordomo/Files/<topic>/*.  So I guess its symlink
heaven, but I'm open to other suggestions.

-Barry

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From ken.manheimer@nist.gov  Tue Aug 29 19:35:04 1995
From: ken.manheimer@nist.gov (Ken Manheimer)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 14:35:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Re: SIGs
In-Reply-To: <9508291741.AA07591@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950829143120.732D-100000@coil.nist.gov>

On Tue, 29 Aug 1995, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:

> sigs/index.html.  Unfortunately it looks like Majordomo itself doesn't
> have a nice compact end-user guide...

Does majordomo provide a top-level 'help' message?  Maybe there are 
some suitable instructions for joining a list, leaving, etc, in it... 

ken
ken.manheimer@nist.gov, 301 975-3539

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From bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw)  Tue Aug 29 19:47:57 1995
From: bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw) (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 14:47:57 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Quick Guide to Majordomo Commands
Message-ID: <9508291847.AA07621@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US>


Check out http://www.python.org/sigs/md_cmds.html

-Barry

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From ken.manheimer@nist.gov  Tue Aug 29 20:10:32 1995
From: ken.manheimer@nist.gov (Ken Manheimer)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:10:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] __doc__-string SIG?
In-Reply-To: <199508291610.QAA24052@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950829144054.732G-100000@coil.nist.gov>

On Tue, 29 Aug 1995, Jim Fulton, U.S. Geological Survey wrote:

> Wasn't someone supposed to start a SIG on __doc__-string style (and
> perhaps organization) issues?  Or is this part of a broader
> documentation sig?

I would not expect docstrings to warrant a sig of their own.  I could see
it being part of a broader documentation sig, were such a thing in full
swing, but i think at this point, at least, it would be best to just post
your ideas to the list at large. 

Which brings me to ponder exactly when a sig is, and when it is not, 
suitable.

I'm inclined to think ("inclined to think" - odd image:) that sigs should
be reserved for ongoing, specific issues, but that the list-at-large
should be used for everything else:

 - questions (and answers)
 - one-shot, general, and transient discussions
 - announcements of SIG events:
   - introductions of new sigs/sig topics
   - conclusions and intermediate resolutions reached on the SIGs
   - In addition, i think it would be good to have proposals produced in 
     sigs, particularly language-enhancement proposals and such, to be 
     aired on the list at large once they're resolved, and discussed on 
     the list at large, perhaps, for final contributions.
 - flamage and language wars (not!-)

Which also brings me to something i meant to ask - has anyone announced
the new sigs on the list-at-large, or have plans to do so?  I'm thinking
it would be a good idea, and it would be good to take the opportunity to
include a plug for PSA membership along with it.  Which would mean holding
off until paul's efforts to compose some kind of PSA registration form is
done.  Then do a bit of "This is the kind of thing the PSA can do for you
- consider joining, so the PSA can continue!" 

(Ie, mention the fact that the python.org host, the efforts of the people
contributing to the SIGs, and python development in general (guido!) are
all being promoted by the PSA, and we need evidence of people wanting the
service in order to convince our patrons (digital creations, CNRI!) that 
it is worth their while... )

> I've been working with __doc__ strings quite a bit lately in
> preparation for some software releases and am collecting some
> questions and opinions.

I'll be interested to see what's up.  I think your questions and thoughts
about exposing object docstrings (and types) without generating instances
of the objects are important... 

ken
ken.manheimer@nist.gov, 301 975-3539

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From jfulton@usgs.gov  Tue Aug 29 20:34:50 1995
From: jfulton@usgs.gov (Jim Fulton, U.S. Geological Survey)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:34:50 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] __doc__-string SIG?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950829144054.732G-100000@coil.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <199508291930.TAA10840@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>


On Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:10:32 -0400 (EDT) 
Ken Manheimer said:
> On Tue, 29 Aug 1995, Jim Fulton, U.S. Geological Survey wrote:
> 
> > Wasn't someone supposed to start a SIG on __doc__-string style (and
> > perhaps organization) issues?  Or is this part of a broader
> > documentation sig?
> 
> I would not expect docstrings to warrant a sig of their own.  I could see
> it being part of a broader documentation sig, were such a thing in full
> swing, but i think at this point, at least, it would be best to just post
> your ideas to the list at large. 

Hm.  Ok, will do.
 
> Which brings me to ponder exactly when a sig is, and when it is not, 
> suitable.
> 
> I'm inclined to think ("inclined to think" - odd image:) that sigs should
> be reserved for ongoing, specific issues, but that the list-at-large
> should be used for everything else:
> 
>  - questions (and answers)
>  - one-shot, general, and transient discussions
>  - announcements of SIG events:
>    - introductions of new sigs/sig topics
>    - conclusions and intermediate resolutions reached on the SIGs
>    - In addition, i think it would be good to have proposals produced in 
     sigs, particularly language-enhancement proposals and such, to be 
>      aired on the list at large once they're resolved, and discussed on 
>      the list at large, perhaps, for final contributions.
>  - flamage and language wars (not!-)

Agreed.
 
> Which also brings me to something i meant to ask - has anyone announced
> the new sigs on the list-at-large, or have plans to do so? 

I plan to announce the matrix and gui sigs real soon. (I still need to
check my gui-sig writeup against my notes from the workshop.)

> I'm thinking
> it would be a good idea, and it would be good to take the opportunity to
> include a plug for PSA membership along with it.  Which would mean holding
> off until paul's efforts to compose some kind of PSA registration form is
> done.

I'd hate to hold up these two sigs.  There's some desire to get going
with the matrix sig, which after all is a clean and fairly small task.
We really need to get going with the gui work if we are going to be
ready for the next workshop.

> > I've been working with __doc__ strings quite a bit lately in
> > preparation for some software releases and am collecting some
> > questions and opinions.
> 
> I'll be interested to see what's up.  I think your questions and thoughts
> about exposing object docstrings (and types) without generating instances
> of the objects are important... 

Cool.  But there hasn't been much comment on the list.  (I did get a
note from Don Beaudry.)  I'll post my recent experiences with an
interim "solution" soon.

Jim

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From Paul.Everitt@cminds.com  Tue Aug 29 16:33:47 1995
From: Paul.Everitt@cminds.com (Paul Everitt/Digital Creations)
Date: 29 Aug 95 15:33:47
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Python Locator work
Message-ID: <9508291935.AA0558@phoenix.cminds.com>

Programming notes:
1) This will be the last post in the meta-sig.  With some patience from 
Barry, I might just figure out this high-falutin' teknowleegie yet.
2) Check out a perl implementation (rather old, I believe) of an IAFA search 
engine
at:
 http://www.ai.mit.edu/tools/site-index.html

Ken writes:

> First of all, it seems to me this discussion warrants a sig mailing-list -
> eg, locator-sig.  That'd leave the meta-sig for things that meta more...-)

Hargh hargh...many yucks.

> On Mon, 28 Aug 1995, Paul Everitt/Digital Creations wrote:
> 
> > Hi everyone.  I've condensed various conversation into a page at:
> >  http://ralph.digicool.com/psa/python.locator.html
> 
> (I am able to easily comment on paul's text because i use the emacs w3 
> web browser, so i have the text nicely formatted in a buffer, but web 
> URL's can be difficult to annotate for discussion.  I think postings to a 
> sig mailing list would be easier for discussion sake...)

My role will be to compile the discussed changes back into the 
original.
 
> > [...]
> > below so we all agree to the problem statement.  ~Don't get torqued if you
> > feel it is condescending! :^)~ Gosh, I'm just trying to be thorough! 
> 
> No need to apologize for "thorough" to me, at least - as you probably have
> noticed from my postings, i tend (for better or worse) to prefer erring on
> the side of thorough, etc... 

Yes, Ken, and that is the same type of fascination for classifying that 
has turned me into a Harvest junkie!

> > The Python community is growing too big to find things easily.  It is
> 
> First of all, nice executive summary.  I would include, at the top there,
> a comment that there is great potential benefit, all around, in making it
> easier to coordinate the communities' efforts, and to share the products
> of the efforts.  Which a good locator mechanism could significantly help 
> ennable...

Good point...and worked in.

>> [...]
> > We also need to distribute control.  Centralizing the index means, as in the
> > case of whois, that no one ever maintains their entries, and the performance
> > becomes wildly unpredicatble.  Thus, the distributed nature of the Python
> 
> (I don't mean to be dense, but the word "performance" confuses me, here. 
> Do you mean that the accuracy becomes unpredictable, as some entries
> become obsolete?)

No, that was implied in the first half.  I'll change the sentence to:
"Centralizing the index means, as in the case of whois, that no one ever 
maintains their entries, and the data becomes dirty, therefore rendering it
useless.  Also, the response time on a central index becomes wildly 
unpredictable.  Thus, ..."
 
> > Finally, any design choice we make should not be in a vacuum.  Bigger fish
> > than the PSA are working on this problem.  Thus, we should try and mirror 
the
> > standards groups and other development, where possible.  
> 
> This is great - provided the IAFA are doing a good job, then we should
> benefit from exploiting their work.  And i already am sold on harvest. 

It is within debate as to whether the IAFA work is successful.  From my 
limited knowledge though, I think they have done a nice balance of structure
and flexibility.  Plus, with Bunyip (of Archie fame) on board, they seem to 
have a good pedigree.

> > strategy which is nearly comprehensive to the problem domain of the Python
> > Locator.  [...]
> 
> (Perhaps this would be a less convoluted way to phrase that:
> "... strategy which nearly encompasses the Python Locator problem.")

Agreed, and changed.
 
> > Looking at the IAFA work, we can start right off the bat with three 
top-level
> > groupings of ~resources~:
> 
> >  o SITE
> >  o USER, ORGANIZATION, SERVICE
> >  o DOCUMENT, IMAGE, SOFTWARE, MAILARCHIVE, USENET, SOUND, VIDEO, FAQ
> 
> The division is very similar to the two categories of resource that i
> suggested - institution and product - except you separated SITE from the
> other institutions.  I suppose you're considering the service/person/
> organization more as agencies, while a site is more of a resource for
> situating things out on the net - a repository.  So perhaps we can
> identify the meta-categories as institutions, products, and repositories. 

The reason SITE is separated on my list is that site connotes a 
place where you can actually get things.  It is more of a placeholder, 
and doesn't give you any specifics.

The other reason is that this is the way the IAFA docs are written.  I'd like
avoid writing my own documentation, and I presume that these folks have 
some good reasons.  If we don't have SITE, then I am nearly positive that 
the existing IAFA collection software won't work.

So, as this is the first mandatory IAFA element, I'm motion to keep it.

> > [...]
> > For instance, we may need to increase the above list to:
> > 
> >  o SITE
> >  o USER, ORGANIZATION, SERVICE
> >  o DOCUMENT, IMAGE, SOFTWARE, MAILARCHIVE, USENET, SOUND, VIDEO, FAQ
> >  o INITIATIVE,SIG
> 
> I ~could~ see initiative and sig fitting into my "institution" category. 
> Not sure, though.  In any case, if your point is that we need to allow for
> extension of the repertoire if/when people come up with resources that
> don't fit in the existing ones, then i agree. 

Sounds like agreement.  So, it looks like there are really just two 
types of templates for us: the IAFA ones, and our extended ones.

> > Next, for each of the above template-types, we need to pick some ~fields~.
> > Fortunately, the IAFA does have some suggested fields for each template 
type.
> > We could start with them, and add new ones where appropriate.  For instance,
> > in the following, I show supplementary fields in ~italics~:
> 
> On quick glance, this all looks good.  Some questions:
> 
>  - Is the URI supposed to serve as the unique identifier for the resource?

Yep.  For now, it maps directly into a URL.

>  - It may be useful to be able to associate "related resources" with
>    many of the entry types - eg, USER could include mention of some of
>    the prominent projects and products with which the user is, or was,
>    involved...

In the IAFA RFC, there is a construct for this called "cluster":
"There are certain classes of data elements, such as contact
information, which occur every time an individual, group or
organization needs to be described. Such data as names,
telephone numbers, postal and email addresses etc. fall into
this category. To avoid repeating these common elements
explicitly in every template below, we define "clusters"
which can then be referred to in a shorthand manner in the
actual template definitions. "

So, we can thing of these as "pointers" to other defined templates.

>  - In addition to the Publication-Statutes (i presume you meant
>    "statutes", not "statues") include a possibly optional "encumberment" 
>    field, to indicate licensing, copyright, etc encumberment status.

Actually, that was a typo: it is Publication-Status.  It is corrected.

There are many types of fields suggested in the IAFA examples.  Many 
are geared at for-fee sites that may have restrictions.  I may try to put a 
list 
of suggested fields into the taxonomy.

> Altogether, this looks like a real good start - i particularly like
> capitalizing on substantial existing mechanisms, like the IAFA stuff
> and harvest.  And also providing for catalogue "browsing" as well as
> searching...

Thanks, I wanted to get it out, and find out if I was out to lunch or 
not.  There will be some groovy things come out in the 
implementation, so stay tuned!

--Paul


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From ken.manheimer@nist.gov  Tue Aug 29 20:49:39 1995
From: ken.manheimer@nist.gov (Ken Manheimer)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:49:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] __doc__-string SIG?
In-Reply-To: <199508291930.TAA10840@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950829154430.732K-100000@coil.nist.gov>

On Tue, 29 Aug 1995, Jim Fulton, U.S. Geological Survey wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:10:32 -0400 (EDT) Ken Manheimer said:
> > I'm thinking
> > it would be a good idea, and it would be good to take the opportunity to
> > include a plug for PSA membership along with it.  Which would mean holding
> > off until paul's efforts to compose some kind of PSA registration form is
> > done.
> 
> I'd hate to hold up these two sigs.  There's some desire to get going
> with the matrix sig, which after all is a clean and fairly small task.
> We really need to get going with the gui work if we are going to be
> ready for the next workshop.

That seems fine - on thinking about it, i realize there's no need to hold 
up anything.  Once the membership stuff is ready, people will be familiar 
with sigs, python.org, etc, and we can start announcing the membership, 
and maybe including mention of it with new service announcements...

> > I'll be interested to see what's up.  I think your questions and thoughts
> > about exposing object docstrings (and types) without generating instances
> > of the objects are important... 
> 
> Cool.  But there hasn't been much comment on the list.  (I did get a
> note from Don Beaudry.)  I'll post my recent experiences with an
> interim "solution" soon.

Interesting to hear sign of don beaudry - he's been real scarce since he
changed jobs, and i can't help wonder what's going to be the fate of the
ever-delayed release of his type-extension hacks... 

ken
ken.manheimer@nist.gov, 301 975-3539

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From Paul.Everitt@cminds.com  Tue Aug 29 17:08:28 1995
From: Paul.Everitt@cminds.com (Paul Everitt/Digital Creations)
Date: 29 Aug 95 16:08:28
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] __doc__-string SIG?
Message-ID: <9508292008.AA0601@phoenix.cminds.com>

> That seems fine - on thinking about it, i realize there's no need to hold 
> up anything.  Once the membership stuff is ready, people will be familiar 
> with sigs, python.org, etc, and we can start announcing the membership, 
> and maybe including mention of it with new service announcements...

OK, OK, I just sent in to Barry to get things started...!


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From jfulton@usgs.gov  Tue Aug 29 21:12:34 1995
From: jfulton@usgs.gov (Jim Fulton, U.S. Geological Survey)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 16:12:34 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] __doc__-string SIG?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950829154430.732K-100000@coil.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <199508292007.UAA13737@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>


On Tue, 29 Aug 1995 15:49:39 -0400 (EDT) 
Ken Manheimer said:
> On Tue, 29 Aug 1995, Jim Fulton, U.S. Geological Survey wrote:
> 
> Interesting to hear sign of don beaudry - he's been real scarce since he
> changed jobs, and i can't help wonder what's going to be the fate of the
> ever-delayed release of his type-extension hacks... 

He still plans to release them.  He offered to let me try them out,
but I don't know when I'll have time. Sounds like his new job at SGI
(not in the group working with Python) is keeping him pretty busy.

Jim

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From bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw)  Wed Aug 30 00:41:12 1995
From: bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw) (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 19:41:12 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Python Locator work
References: <9508292006.AA0595@phoenix.cminds.com>
Message-ID: <9508292341.AA01558@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US>


    Paul> OK, I'm ready be a grown-up and run my own SIG!

Cool!  I've just created the locator-sig mailing list.

    Paul> Some notes:
    Paul> 1) I put my email address as the owner.

Sorry, I changed it back.  I left your personal address in the info
file, but I wasn't too sure about that either.  In any case, I put
locator-sig-owner as the Owner, and made an alias to paul@digicool.com
in the /etc/aliases file.

There is currently no one on the list at the moment.  Go ahead and try
to subscribe yourself.  Give me a call tomorrow (703-620-8990) and
I'll give you the sig password.

-Barry

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From Barry A. Warsaw" <bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us  Wed Aug 30 00:45:59 1995
From: Barry A. Warsaw" <bwarsaw@cnri.reston.va.us (Barry A. Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 19:45:59 -0400
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] __doc__-string SIG?
References: <199508291610.QAA24052@qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV>
 <Pine.SUN.3.91.950829144054.732G-100000@coil.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <9508292345.AA01565@anthem.CNRI.Reston.Va.US>


>>>>> "KM" == Ken Manheimer <klm@nist.gov> writes:

    KM> I'm inclined to think ("inclined to think" - odd image:) that

I'm usually reclined to think. :-)

    KM> Which also brings me to something i meant to ask - has anyone
    KM> announced the new sigs on the list-at-large, or have plans to
    KM> do so?

The list owners should do this, but we might need a mechanism where we
can periodically remind the list-at-large of these sigs' existance.
Perhaps it's enough to just post periodic updates from the sigs.
    
-Barry

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From Paul.Everitt@cminds.com  Wed Aug 30 08:50:05 1995
From: Paul.Everitt@cminds.com (Paul Everitt/Digital Creations)
Date: 30 Aug 95  7:50:05
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] FWD: New WWW Browser, SurfIt!
Message-ID: <9508301212.AA1089@phoenix.cminds.com>

Gee, now isn't that interesting...

To: www-talk @ w3.org @ Internet
cc:  (bcc: Paul Everitt/Digital Creations)
From: Steve.Ball @ pastime.anu.edu.au (Steve) @ Internet
Date: 08/30/95 10:09:05 AM
Subject: New WWW Browser, SurfIt!

The All-Tcl (all-sining, all-dancing) SurfIt! Web browser.
  Version 0.3alpha

SurfIt! is a new World Wide Web browser implemented entirely 
using the Tcl/Tk language and toolkit.  I have uploaded it to 
ftp.aud.alcatel.com:/tcl/incoming, but in the meantime you can 
also get it from pastime.anu.edu.au:/pub/SurfIt/surfit-0.3.tar.gz

This initial public release is ALPHA quality, mainly since there 
is much work to do in defining the applet/hypertool APIs.  
It is being released in this form to get some feedback from the 
Tcl/WWW community.  I intend to do alot of cleaning up of the
distribution in later releases to make it easier to install and 
run the browser.  Given that there is no C code involved, it 
should run on any platform that supports Tcl/Tk, and should be
easy to port to the Mac & Windows versions of Tcl/Tk when they
become available from Sun Labs.

The browser is based upon Stephen Uhler's (infamous :-) Tcl HTML 
parser, which will parse HTML v1.0 and some HTML v2.0 elements.  
I have enhanced this with a subset of HTML v3.0 tables.  
The goal is for the parser to eventually be completely HTML v3.0 
compliant.  Given that Tcl allows rapid prototyping I expect to be
able to quickly add support for draft standards as they emerge
(once I've caught up with the current standards ;-)
SurfIt! also handles inline GIF, PPM and X bitmap images.

The most interesting aspect of SurfIt! is that it will download 
and execute Tcl scripts (aka "Applets").  SurfIt! uses Jacob Levy's 
Safe-Tcl extension (v0.2) to ensure that foreign, untrusted scripts 
cannot compromise the security of the computer that the browser 
is running on.

Some demonstration applets may be found at: 
<URL: http://pastime.anu.edu.au/SurfIt/>

I am also very interested in developing a suite of hypertools.  
I'm currently working on the Plateau Multimedia Group's cmplayer 
application.  Others will include exmh and nn-tk.

CONTACT
=======

If you have any problems, wish to discuss some aspect of the browser,
or have done some hacking and want to contribute some code then feel 
free to contact me.

EMail: Steve.Ball@pastime.anu.edu.au
WWW: http://pastime.anu.edu.au/steve/
Phone: +61 6 249 5146
Snail: PASTIME Project, ACSys CRC.
 Australian National University
 ACTON 0200 ACT
 AUSTRALIA

ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS
================

The author wishes to acknowledge the support provided by the 
Cooperative Research Centre for Advanced Computational Systems 
established under the Australian Government's Cooperative Research 
Centres Programme.

This project is a collaborative effort with the Tcl group of
Sun Microsystems Laboratories.  In particular Stephen Uhler and Jacob Levy
have provided much help and advice (many thanks!).  I'd also like to thank
John Ousterhout for his help and encouragement.

---

ANNOUNCEMENT,v 1.2 1995/08/29 23:40:43 steve Exp
 



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From Paul.Everitt@cminds.com  Wed Aug 30 11:54:48 1995
From: Paul.Everitt@cminds.com (Paul Everitt/Digital Creations)
Date: 30 Aug 95 10:54:48
Subject: [PYTHON META-SIG] Pending announcement of Python Locator SIG
Message-ID: <9508301455.AA1187@phoenix.cminds.com>

OK, Barry has graciously helped me through the creation of the SIG.
Actually, all the online docs Barry wrote are perfect.

So, my "resting place" for the Locator is:
 http://ralph.digicool.com/psa/locator/
I'll wait til this afternoon for opinions, then make an announcement.  
There is already a person signed up, in addition to me!

--Paul

          Paul Everitt


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