From r1chardj0n3s at gmail.com  Mon Jan  4 00:21:12 2016
From: r1chardj0n3s at gmail.com (Richard Jones)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 16:21:12 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Call for volunteer: PyCon AU website
Message-ID: <CAHrZfZApKfQrX9Pk8PviNK9zkgORzDutLevo6fPqw4jS3WLJRA@mail.gmail.com>

Happy new year MPUG folks!

We over in PyCon AU land are in need of one or two folks to help us run the
conference website this year (and next, if we're lucky :-)

If you'd like to lend your Linux, Web, Python or SQL skills to this
endeavour, or would like further information on what's going on, please let
me know!


Thanks,

     Richard Jones
     PyCon AU 2016 Chair
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From a.kuplevakhskyi at gmail.com  Mon Jan  4 05:16:39 2016
From: a.kuplevakhskyi at gmail.com (Andrew Kuplevakhskyi)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 12:16:39 +0200
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Call for volunteer: PyCon AU website
In-Reply-To: <CAHrZfZApKfQrX9Pk8PviNK9zkgORzDutLevo6fPqw4jS3WLJRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHrZfZApKfQrX9Pk8PviNK9zkgORzDutLevo6fPqw4jS3WLJRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMEVTmUeAyWbj4kFnWT0EJQu6bbF=pMbfo0pOw=gjYy0JRwgpA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Richard,

Thank you for the greetings and happy New Year to you, too!

PyCon AU is such a great event for Python developers to meet,
socialise and exchange views! Thank you for sharing the opportunity to
contribute to it!

As the conference site needs to be both robust and responsive, I
understand your effort to find the engineers you can trust in running
it. I have been involved in resolving successfully a number of
performance and reliability issues at my current job. With regards to
more specific relevant skills, I am excited to offer my Linux and
Python expertise.

If you are interested, I would be happy to discuss further details of
the work with you. You can use my email or Skype kupleva to connect
with me.

With best wishes to you and the rest of the smart PyCon team,
Andrew Kuplevakhskyi


On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 7:21 AM, Richard Jones <r1chardj0n3s at gmail.com> wrote:
> Happy new year MPUG folks!
>
> We over in PyCon AU land are in need of one or two folks to help us run the
> conference website this year (and next, if we're lucky :-)
>
> If you'd like to lend your Linux, Web, Python or SQL skills to this
> endeavour, or would like further information on what's going on, please let
> me know!
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>      Richard Jones
>      PyCon AU 2016 Chair
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> melbourne-pug mailing list
> melbourne-pug at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>

From chris.morgan at roi.com.au  Thu Jan  7 22:18:36 2016
From: chris.morgan at roi.com.au (Chris Morgan)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 14:18:36 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Job: full stack generalist web developer at
 roi.com.au
Message-ID: <CACtv-Sk6TLDm-euZsuWsfNUgWdNY1ev+ZFh=+ecL-3fveAVUGQ@mail.gmail.com>

roi.com.au is seeking a full stack generalist web developer. (Frontend,
backend, ops, sysadmin, even some tech support for the other employees if
you want.) The position is onsite in our Hawthorn office.

Join me in maintaining the company?s in-house tools and developing new
things that will be useful for the company. Python, Django, that sort of
thing, and looking into tools like Ember.js for certain new projects.

The full listing is available at
https://careers.stackoverflow.com/jobs/104853/full-stack-generalist-web-developer-roicomau
.

I?d prefer applications to come through Stack Overflow Careers, but you can
also email me directly to apply or ask questions. (Just remember to reply
to *me*, not the mailing list at large.)

? Chris Morgan of roi.com.au
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From miked at dewhirst.com.au  Wed Jan 13 01:11:42 2016
From: miked at dewhirst.com.au (Mike Dewhirst)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 22:11:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [melbourne-pug] OS license requirements
In-Reply-To: <53E9631C.6050700@dewhirst.com.au>
References: <53E80F97.8030008@dewhirst.com.au>
 <53E9631C.6050700@dewhirst.com.au>
Message-ID: <89f3802a-952f-4565-ac2c-d1cbed5ac06d@googlegroups.com>

Further to this, for the SharedSDS project licensing is now settled on GNU 
GPL v3 for the bulk of the software. API code will be GNU LGPL v3

Mike

On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 at 10:43:58 AM UTC+10, Mike Dewhirst wrote:
>
> Cross posting again to thank everyone for responding ... 
>
> I'm going with LGPL. 
>
> Oliver suggested I consider Mozilla Public License and part of a 
> stackexchange conversation goes [1] ... 
>
> > The major difference is how MPL / LGPL licensed code must be linked 
> > into the project. MPL source code files can be directly copied into a 
> > (possibly) proprietary software project (static linking), while LGPL 
> > licensed code must be dynamically linked (loosely linked to the 
> > possibly proprietary software project, so that end-users can switch 
> > out the licensed software library for another version of the licensed 
> > software library). 
>
> ... but in the context of Python running in a server (IANAL) I can't see 
> "linking" being applicable to the point where it would prevent the real 
> objective of ensuring my source (modified or not) is available for the 
> end user of the whole work. Running on someone else's server makes it 
> moot and on the end-user's server it is fait accompli. 
>
> Russ suggested staying within the big five and that was why I was 
> leaning towards LGPL anyway. My thought was about who might be 
> interested in helping if the license is breached. MSF or FSF? I assume 
> FSF because that is their entire mission. 
>
> In truth I was originally going for GPLv3 until I realised it would 
> prevent some of my intended users from interfacing their software with 
> mine. 
>
> Again - thanks to all 
>
> Cheers 
>
> Mike 
>
> [1] 
>
> http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/221365/mozilla-public-license-mpl-2-0-vs-lesser-gnu-general-public-license-lgpl-3-0 
>
> On 11/08/2014 10:34 AM, Mike Dewhirst wrote: 
> > Apologies for cross-posting 
> > 
> > I'm getting near to open sourcing a Django project and have to choose 
> > an appropriate license. Can anyone help me choose? 
> > 
> > I have settled on the following requirements ... 
> > 
> > 1. Project source must be freely available for end users to view and 
> >  download and modify and further distribute to others 
> > 
> > 2. But if user modified source is distributed the modified source 
> > must be freely available for others to view and download and modify 
> > and be subject to the identical license as the project source 
> > 
> > 3. However, if the user modified source is kept in-house and not 
> > further distributed the changed source may be kept private or offered 
> > back to the project as a patch at the whim of that user. 
> > 
> > 4. Project (and user modified) source may be combined with 
> > proprietary software but the project (or user mofified) source 
> > component remains subject to the same license. It cannot be 
> > distributed as a combined whole under any other license than the 
> > project license. 
> > 
> > 5. But it can be distributed as a combined whole with proprietary 
> > software provided the project (or user modified) source component is 
> >  freely available for end users to view and download and further 
> > distribute to others under the project license even if the 
> > proprietary component is not. 
> > 
> > BTW, Django doesn't require that my project use the Django license 
> > and of course I won't be distributing Django. 
> > 
> > I'm leaning towards the LGPL but would appreciate feedback from 
> > anyone with contrary views. 
> > 
> > Thanks 
> > 
> > Mike _______________________________________________ melbourne-pug 
> > mailing list melbourne-pug at python.org 
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug 
> > 
>
>
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From Ryan.Lynch at greythorn.com.au  Thu Jan 14 00:51:05 2016
From: Ryan.Lynch at greythorn.com.au (Ryan Lynch)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 16:51:05 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Python/Django roles
Message-ID: <D10014752420DA4897F3A2DAADE469F3372B9F9EF9@DC03EXC103.recruit.corp>

Hi guys,

I am currently recruiting several Python/Django Developer permanent roles in the CBD fringe. It?s for a niche product development company who has recently received a large investment injection to take their business to the next level. It has a start-up vibe with an enterprise client focus.

I am recruiting permanent roles at the following levels:


?         Senior Developer

?         Mid-level Developer

?         Junior Developer

Strong back-end Python/Django skills are mandatory for these roles ? but the ability to work across the full-stack will be highly regarded.

If interested, please contact Ryan Lynch on 03 9604 4247 or ryan.lynch at greythorn.com.au<mailto:ryan.lynch at greythorn.com.au>

I am happy to offer $250 worth of beers (or equivalent) for the next MPUG meet-up should any successful placements come out of this forum.

Cheers!
Ryan



Ryan Lynch

Principal Consultant



Direct: +61 3 9604 4247
Office: +61 3 9604 4200
email:  Ryan.Lynch at greythorn.com.au<mailto:Ryan.Lynch at greythorn.com.au>
LinkedIn:       au.linkedin.com/in/lynchryan<http://au.linkedin.com/in/lynchryan>

[cid:imagebeb8f2.JPG at 795441a1.4db86911]<http://www.linkedin.com/company/greythorn-australia>


[cid:image9d1049.JPG at ac422531.439f140a]<https://twitter.com/GreythornAU>


[cid:imagee45245.GIF at 9dcaf621.4ab167d9]<https://www.facebook.com/GreythornAustralia>


[cid:image9a73da.GIF at 3573abbd.4a9b4ea0]<https://plus.google.com/+GreythornAu/posts>


[cid:image983f61.GIF at 8e3ec85b.4885b560]<http://www.greythorn.com.au/request-to-download-salary-guide?utm_source=emailsig&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=emailsig&gtau-ss14-req/>




[cid:image735889.PNG at 9e9f7aed.4c8ff198]


    <http://www.linkedin.com/company/2817045>


  <https://twitter.com/GreythornAU>





Level 15, 356 Collins Street, Melbourne, 3000, Australia

www.greythorn.com.au<http://www.greythorn.com.au>



Brisbane | Canberra | Melbourne | Sydney





[cid:image1a7bc3.PNG at 41c89ccc.47a05b32]



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From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Thu Jan 14 01:56:32 2016
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 17:56:32 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Employers welcome;
 recruiters not. (was: Python/Django roles)
References: <D10014752420DA4897F3A2DAADE469F3372B9F9EF9@DC03EXC103.recruit.corp>
Message-ID: <858u3sps2n.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Ryan Lynch <Ryan.Lynch at greythorn.com.au> writes:

> I am currently recruiting several Python/Django Developer permanent
> roles in the CBD fringe. It?s for a niche product development company
> who has recently received a large investment injection to take their
> business to the next level. It has a start-up vibe with an enterprise
> client focus.

Please only post roles where the employer is disclosed, and:

> If interested, please contact [a Greythorn Recruiting contact]

only post roles where the applicant can contact the employer directly.

We don't want this forum to be a haven to recruitment company messages.

-- 
 \      ?If you ever reach total enlightenment while you're drinking a |
  `\      beer, I bet it makes beer shoot out your nose.? ?Jack Handey |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney


From goran at kogan.com.au  Thu Jan 14 20:20:56 2016
From: goran at kogan.com.au (Goran - Kogan)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 12:20:56 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Exciting Python roles at Australia's largest online
 retailer #NoRecruiters :)
Message-ID: <CAJf2o_3P-7xV6M1ym5T3fkwdZoqKOiQPucVZJoT0gUGrqxgOpg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all

I'm the CTO at Kogan.com and we're very proud that we do our recruitment in
house :)

Kogan.com is the largest online retailer in Australia - our tech is built
in house and powered by Python :)

We currently have some awesome developer opportunities in Python, Django,
React JS and UX that we are recruiting for.

Our team is small and incredibly dynamic which is fantastic for those of
you who are looking for roles where you get to really own what you do, have
huge influence over your work and have your work seen by millions of
visitors.

Our devs deploy daily and making game changing decisions all the time.  We
love engaging with the community and hold regular MeetUps at our office in
South Melbourne.  We also follow a (real) agile process and a devops
culture.  You can read up on some of the work we do at
http://devblog.kogan.com/

If this opportunity interests your or a colleague, please check out what we
have available: http://careers.kogan.com/software-devs-engineering/

Kind Regards

*Goran Stefkovski*
CTO


www.kogan.com | *p* 1300 304 292
goran at kogan.com.au

*Read about us at devblog.kogan.com <http://devblog.kogan.com/> | Work with
us at careers.kogan.com <http://careers.kogan.com/>*
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From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Thu Jan 14 23:02:27 2016
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 15:02:27 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Exciting Python roles at Australia's largest
 online retailer #NoRecruiters :)
References: <CAJf2o_3P-7xV6M1ym5T3fkwdZoqKOiQPucVZJoT0gUGrqxgOpg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <854mefpk18.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Goran - Kogan <goran at kogan.com.au> writes:

> I'm the CTO at Kogan.com and we're very proud that we do our
> recruitment in house :)
> [?]
> If this opportunity interests your or a colleague, please check out what we
> have available: http://careers.kogan.com/software-devs-engineering/

Thank you!

-- 
 \              ?In the long run, the utility of all non-Free software |
  `\      approaches zero. All non-Free software is a dead end.? ?Mark |
_o__)                                                    Pilgrim, 2006 |
Ben Finney


From andrew.stuart at supercoders.com.au  Wed Jan 27 00:07:18 2016
From: andrew.stuart at supercoders.com.au (Andrew Stuart)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 16:07:18 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Question re job ads from recruiters
Message-ID: <8A09539B-E20E-4E7F-9973-AFB0ABAB8EF6@supercoders.com.au>

I?m curious to know why the limitations on job postings from recruiters?

I get plenty of good Python jobs but we can?t post them here which is a pity as there might be a good outcome for all.

Why does it matter that we need to keep the company name off the job ad? Everyone knows that?s just one of the limitations we recruiters need to deal with.

Perhaps if there was a jobs mailing list address then people could tune out of the noise by moving the job postings off the main list.

Thoughts?

Andrew


From miked at dewhirst.com.au  Wed Jan 27 00:57:45 2016
From: miked at dewhirst.com.au (Mike Dewhirst)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 16:57:45 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Question re job ads from recruiters
In-Reply-To: <8A09539B-E20E-4E7F-9973-AFB0ABAB8EF6@supercoders.com.au>
References: <8A09539B-E20E-4E7F-9973-AFB0ABAB8EF6@supercoders.com.au>
Message-ID: <56A85C59.3080101@dewhirst.com.au>

On 27/01/2016 4:07 PM, Andrew Stuart wrote:
> I???m curious to know why the limitations on job postings from
> recruiters?
>
> I get plenty of good Python jobs but we can???t post them here which
> is a pity as there might be a good outcome for all.
>
> Why does it matter that we need to keep the company name off the job
> ad? Everyone knows that???s just one of the limitations we recruiters
> need to deal with.

You can post them here but I think you have misunderstood the problem. 
The job ads would welcome if the company name *is* mentioned.

Put it this way, if the majority of people on the list could look at the 
job being ofered and there was enough info to immediately reject or 
immediately follow it up then you (the recruiting firm) have done the 
right thing. However, if it is a teaser designed to suck in as many 
people as possible, most of whom wouldn't have bothered if the necessary 
info had been posted to self-eliminate after a glance then you get your 
firm a bad name. And annoy those who have wasted their time discovering 
what you should have said in the first place.

So, mention everything which will permit the majority of the list to 
ignore it. You only want a minority anyway so ...

That will be 2.2 cents.

Mike

>
> Perhaps if there was a jobs mailing list address then people could
> tune out of the noise by moving the job postings off the main list.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Andrew
>
> _______________________________________________ melbourne-pug mailing
> list melbourne-pug at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>


From tom at jugglethis.net  Wed Jan 27 00:37:28 2016
From: tom at jugglethis.net (Tom Allen)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 16:37:28 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Question re job ads from recruiters
In-Reply-To: <8A09539B-E20E-4E7F-9973-AFB0ABAB8EF6@supercoders.com.au>
References: <8A09539B-E20E-4E7F-9973-AFB0ABAB8EF6@supercoders.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAM13JOBpnzPGxsREf+MahfVKAwFowaohgWd2Cwy7wkzdHnOgCQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 27 January 2016 at 16:07, Andrew Stuart <andrew.stuart at supercoders.com.au
> wrote:

> I?m curious to know why the limitations on job postings from recruiters?
>
> Because this is a mailing list for discussions of the Python language and
ecosystem, not a jobs board.


> I get plenty of good Python jobs but we can?t post them here which is a
> pity as there might be a good outcome for all.
>
> More likely a good outcome for you, the company, and the new employee.
<cynic mode>And probably in that order too...</cynic mode>


> Why does it matter that we need to keep the company name off the job ad?
> Everyone knows that?s just one of the limitations we recruiters need to
> deal with.
>
> People who aren't actively seeking a job aren't interested in
opportunities they cannot evaluate. A job advert that doesn't provide the
company name is just noise.


> Perhaps if there was a jobs mailing list address then people could tune
> out of the noise by moving the job postings off the main list.
>
> There are many such lists already; stack overflow jobs, seek, indeed, etc.
Any python developer looking for a job is more than capable of searching
there, or *asking* for opportunities here - to which you'd be welcome to
respond.


> Thoughts?
>
> The rules[1] are fine the way they are. I, for one, hope they remain so.


> Andrew
>

Tom

[1] From https://wiki.python.org/moin/MelbournePUG:

We have a policy about job offers on the mailing list:
>
>    - As long as it's a Python-related job offer by the hiring company and
>    not by an intermediary recruiter, you can just send it to the mailing list.
>
>
>    - If it's not Python-related, or the poster of the job ad is a
>    recruiter who won't mention the company that will be doing the hiring,
>    please just use Seek or Monster, and don't write to the mailing list.
>
>
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From johnrider37 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 01:39:24 2016
From: johnrider37 at gmail.com (John Rider)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 17:39:24 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Question re job ads from recruiters
In-Reply-To: <56A85C59.3080101@dewhirst.com.au>
References: <8A09539B-E20E-4E7F-9973-AFB0ABAB8EF6@supercoders.com.au>
 <56A85C59.3080101@dewhirst.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAHjWUtQBEDw4YfcYBe=HpMm0Vy+24zvCcDHX6rTAvyyHSpS3YQ@mail.gmail.com>

I think the other problem which i can think of is that the same job is
being advertised with  other companies.

I can bet the jobs which Andrew is talking about is advertsied with 4-5
different companies. I can even tell the company name  as well . I  think
its  *******n  :). They say that its exclusive to them only .  Usually
after 30 mins of discussing my  history they say its bla bla company and my
30 mins get wasted as i already applied with them. Every Recruiter will
send the same job and it will confuse people.

If company name is there then you can decide its different job or same job.

Just my views

John

On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 4:57 PM, Mike Dewhirst <miked at dewhirst.com.au>
wrote:

> On 27/01/2016 4:07 PM, Andrew Stuart wrote:
>
>> I???m curious to know why the limitations on job postings from
>> recruiters?
>>
>> I get plenty of good Python jobs but we can???t post them here which
>> is a pity as there might be a good outcome for all.
>>
>> Why does it matter that we need to keep the company name off the job
>> ad? Everyone knows that???s just one of the limitations we recruiters
>> need to deal with.
>>
>
> You can post them here but I think you have misunderstood the problem. The
> job ads would welcome if the company name *is* mentioned.
>
> Put it this way, if the majority of people on the list could look at the
> job being ofered and there was enough info to immediately reject or
> immediately follow it up then you (the recruiting firm) have done the right
> thing. However, if it is a teaser designed to suck in as many people as
> possible, most of whom wouldn't have bothered if the necessary info had
> been posted to self-eliminate after a glance then you get your firm a bad
> name. And annoy those who have wasted their time discovering what you
> should have said in the first place.
>
> So, mention everything which will permit the majority of the list to
> ignore it. You only want a minority anyway so ...
>
> That will be 2.2 cents.
>
> Mike
>
>
>> Perhaps if there was a jobs mailing list address then people could
>> tune out of the noise by moving the job postings off the main list.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> _______________________________________________ melbourne-pug mailing
>> list melbourne-pug at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> melbourne-pug mailing list
> melbourne-pug at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>
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From brian at microcomaustralia.com.au  Wed Jan 27 02:12:56 2016
From: brian at microcomaustralia.com.au (Brian May)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 18:12:56 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Question re job ads from recruiters
In-Reply-To: <8A09539B-E20E-4E7F-9973-AFB0ABAB8EF6@supercoders.com.au>
References: <8A09539B-E20E-4E7F-9973-AFB0ABAB8EF6@supercoders.com.au>
Message-ID: <87r3h34hs7.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>

Note: My normal email provider let their SSL certificate expire, so I
can't send via them at the moment. It is possible Andrew Stuart might
get this email and not the list because I have to use another account
that the list might reject.


Andrew Stuart <andrew.stuart at supercoders.com.au> writes:

> Why does it matter that we need to keep the company name off the job
> ad? Everyone knows that?s just one of the limitations we recruiters
> need to deal with.

This is kind of an ambiguous statement. I think Mike Dewhirst
interpreted as a complaint you cannot post to this list without dropping
the company name. Which isn't the case.

I think you are saying that your own company policy prevents you from
posting the company name on the ad. Which is similar policy I think for
most recruiters.

I understand you are will not be a position to change this, however I
just wanted to say that this gives recruiters a bad name with potential
candidates. It means the candidate cannot research the company before
applying. The position could in fact be the position the candidate wants
to leave. Given the company name, the candidate might know that this is
a really good or bad place to work.

It also means that candidates end up applying for the same position
multiple times via different recruiters, which wastes everybodies
time. I have lost track of the number of my applications that get no
where for this reason. I suggested to one recruiter recently that maybe
I had already applied for this position, and he still refused to tell me
the company name. It wasn't until later he concluded it was the same
position that I had already applied to directly.

Sure - I assume the candidate will eventually be told the company name -
but often not until after the candidate has spent the time to place a
formal application to the recruiter, had a formal onsite interview with
the recruiter, etc.

Unfortunately, I suspect many recruiters are bad at prepresenting
candidates to prospect employers.

I had a interview recently with a company (setup by a high price
recruiter) that started asking very specific and details questions about
work I haven't touched since June last year. I suspect the recruiter may
have oversold my skills, I wasn't prepared for this very specific line
of questioning, and the interviewer wasn't going to accept my response
that the details were a bit fuzzy after not looking at this code for
more then 6 months.

In many cases I think the recruiters simply do not understand the
technology. I had one job description from a recruiter recently that was
so broad it could apply to any job in any field of work in any
industry. I asked for clarification, and got no response.

As a result, it is much better for candidates to apply direct to the
company. This means that the recruiters try to hide the company name so
the candidates are forced to use them. I find I never have had any
success using applying through recruiters, I have much better luck
applying to the company directly. All my jobs I have had are due to
direct contacts.

If recruiters actually offered some sort of value to the candidates,
then maybe candidates would actually want to use them even though the
know they could apply directly to the company.
-- 
Brian May <brian at microcomaustralia.com.au>

From brian at microcomaustralia.com.au  Wed Jan 27 02:24:21 2016
From: brian at microcomaustralia.com.au (Brian May)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 18:24:21 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Question re job ads from recruiters
In-Reply-To: <87r3h34hs7.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
References: <8A09539B-E20E-4E7F-9973-AFB0ABAB8EF6@supercoders.com.au>
 <87r3h34hs7.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
Message-ID: <87oac74h96.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>

Brian May <brian at microcomaustralia.com.au> writes:

> Note: My normal email provider let their SSL certificate expire, so I
> can't send via them at the moment. It is possible Andrew Stuart might
> get this email and not the list because I have to use another account
> that the list might reject.

Resending this now that hopefully I have configured the mailing list to
accept emails from this address.

> Andrew Stuart <andrew.stuart at supercoders.com.au> writes:
>
>> Why does it matter that we need to keep the company name off the job
>> ad? Everyone knows that?s just one of the limitations we recruiters
>> need to deal with.
>
> This is kind of an ambiguous statement. I think Mike Dewhirst
> interpreted as a complaint you cannot post to this list without dropping
> the company name. Which isn't the case.
>
> I think you are saying that your own company policy prevents you from
> posting the company name on the ad. Which is similar policy I think for
> most recruiters.
>
> I understand you are will not be a position to change this, however I
> just wanted to say that this gives recruiters a bad name with potential
> candidates. It means the candidate cannot research the company before
> applying. The position could in fact be the position the candidate wants
> to leave. Given the company name, the candidate might know that this is
> a really good or bad place to work.
>
> It also means that candidates end up applying for the same position
> multiple times via different recruiters, which wastes everybodies
> time. I have lost track of the number of my applications that get no
> where for this reason. I suggested to one recruiter recently that maybe
> I had already applied for this position, and he still refused to tell me
> the company name. It wasn't until later he concluded it was the same
> position that I had already applied to directly.
>
> Sure - I assume the candidate will eventually be told the company name -
> but often not until after the candidate has spent the time to place a
> formal application to the recruiter, had a formal onsite interview with
> the recruiter, etc.
>
> Unfortunately, I suspect many recruiters are bad at prepresenting
> candidates to prospect employers.
>
> I had a interview recently with a company (setup by a high price
> recruiter) that started asking very specific and details questions about
> work I haven't touched since June last year. I suspect the recruiter may
> have oversold my skills, I wasn't prepared for this very specific line
> of questioning, and the interviewer wasn't going to accept my response
> that the details were a bit fuzzy after not looking at this code for
> more then 6 months.
>
> In many cases I think the recruiters simply do not understand the
> technology. I had one job description from a recruiter recently that was
> so broad it could apply to any job in any field of work in any
> industry. I asked for clarification, and got no response.
>
> As a result, it is much better for candidates to apply direct to the
> company. This means that the recruiters try to hide the company name so
> the candidates are forced to use them. I find I never have had any
> success using applying through recruiters, I have much better luck
> applying to the company directly. All my jobs I have had are due to
> direct contacts.
>
> If recruiters actually offered some sort of value to the candidates,
> then maybe candidates would actually want to use them even though the
> know they could apply directly to the company.
> -- 
> Brian May <brian at microcomaustralia.com.au>
-- 
Brian May <brian at microcomaustralia.com.au>

From brian at microcomaustralia.com.au  Wed Jan 27 02:30:17 2016
From: brian at microcomaustralia.com.au (Brian May)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 18:30:17 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Question re job ads from recruiters
In-Reply-To: <87oac74h96.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
References: <8A09539B-E20E-4E7F-9973-AFB0ABAB8EF6@supercoders.com.au>
 <87r3h34hs7.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
 <87oac74h96.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
Message-ID: <87lh7b4gza.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>

Brian May <brian at microcomaustralia.com.au> writes:

> Resending this now that hopefully I have configured the mailing list to
> accept emails from this address.

Looks like both emails got to the list. I think. Sorry about the noise.
-- 
Brian May <brian at microcomaustralia.com.au>

From tleeuwenburg at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 02:36:47 2016
From: tleeuwenburg at gmail.com (Tennessee Leeuwenburg)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 18:36:47 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Question re job ads from recruiters
In-Reply-To: <87lh7b4gza.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
References: <8A09539B-E20E-4E7F-9973-AFB0ABAB8EF6@supercoders.com.au>
 <87r3h34hs7.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
 <87oac74h96.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
 <87lh7b4gza.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
Message-ID: <CADhgxgf3JjoE74KEeXD0auBtX8m4y8dRYGWaVGmKPU5w87+tgg@mail.gmail.com>

Yah. I don't know exactly how this happens, but the mailing list software
seems to put people into moderate mode with no obvious reason. I wonder if
it might be due to the occasional problem with delivery. Regardless of why,
I have gone in manually and approved the messages and cleared the moderate
flags that were set.

Don't worry about the occasional double-sends or suchlike, it's just par
for the course. :) I'll keep pushing things through from the admin side as
appropriate. :)

On 27 January 2016 at 18:30, Brian May <brian at microcomaustralia.com.au>
wrote:

> Brian May <brian at microcomaustralia.com.au> writes:
>
> > Resending this now that hopefully I have configured the mailing list to
> > accept emails from this address.
>
> Looks like both emails got to the list. I think. Sorry about the noise.
> --
> Brian May <brian at microcomaustralia.com.au>
> _______________________________________________
> melbourne-pug mailing list
> melbourne-pug at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>



-- 
--------------------------------------------------
Tennessee Leeuwenburg
http://myownhat.blogspot.com/
"Don't believe everything you think"
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From javier at candeira.com  Wed Jan 27 07:26:21 2016
From: javier at candeira.com (javier at candeira.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 23:26:21 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Question re job ads from recruiters
In-Reply-To: <8A09539B-E20E-4E7F-9973-AFB0ABAB8EF6@supercoders.com.au>
References: <8A09539B-E20E-4E7F-9973-AFB0ABAB8EF6@supercoders.com.au>
Message-ID: <b335bca6f7b4496bf6270c4b73e20d42@candeira.com>

On 2016-01-27 16:07, Andrew Stuart wrote:
> I?m curious to know why the limitations on job postings from 
> recruiters?

Hi, Andrew.

Thanks for asking. Also thanks for engaging the Python community as a 
member, not as an outsider. I liked your Pycon Au presentation last 
year, hope to see more from you in the future.

Since I wrote the policy, and it's a bit ambiguous despite many voices 
agreeing on its main thrust, here's my rationale for writing it:

The Python Users Group is for the benefit of its members. Traffic on the 
list has to have perceived benefits to them.

Others have already spoken to the frustration of mismatched expectations 
between posting and interview. But it's also true good recruiters can 
help in matching jobs to candidates, if the candidates feel they have 
control over their job search, by having enough information as they go 
in. Cloaked posts are almost information free.

Job postings that don't mention the employer nor the salary aren't 
useful to MPUG members on the list for the following reasons:

- people who are already looking for work can already find those same 
job postings on seek, monster, etc. [1]

- people who aren't already looking for work get no benefit, there's 
very little incentive to ask about it.

The only benefit of job postings with no stated employer/salary is to 
the recruiters that can get a leg over other recruiters if people apply 
through them instead of going through other people. If we said yes to 
this type of cloaked postings, we'd get more of them, without any 
benefit for the community.

So really, recruiters per se are not the target of this policy. Postings 
with no added value to our constituency are. Nobody has complained when 
Planet Innovation, the BOM, Biarri or Medibank (recent examples I 
remember) posted help wanted ads, not because they were not via 
recruiter, but because posting was informational.

These are useful help-wanted notices, both to those looking for work and 
to those who aren't. We welcome this kind of postings by anyone. In 
fact, these are the ones that stick enough that I have told people in my 
circles to go talk to these companies if they were looking for work. I 
don't do that with cloaked postings.

I understand this may not have been clear enough, so I will find a 
better redaction for the policy and link it to this email message for 
future reference.
> Perhaps if there was a jobs mailing list address then people could
> tune out of the noise by moving the job postings off the main list.

Anybody who wants to start a melbourne-python-jobs mailing list can do 
it. Many here might even subscribe to it, or send notices to it if they 
ever need someone. Someone has to take on the job.

Regards,
Javier

[1] To be fair, search engines are spammier than recruiter emails, which 
at least usually write to the mailing list for the programming language 
and city fitting the position, while job postings on search engines are 
often fishing expeditions mentioning languages that will never be used 
on the job, cities that they hope the candidate will move from, etc. 
Still, the consensus is that cloaked job postings are not good enough 
for a community mailing list. We expect better.



From n6151h at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 13:51:37 2016
From: n6151h at gmail.com (N6151H)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 05:51:37 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Question re job ads from recruiters
In-Reply-To: <b335bca6f7b4496bf6270c4b73e20d42@candeira.com>
References: <8A09539B-E20E-4E7F-9973-AFB0ABAB8EF6@supercoders.com.au>
 <b335bca6f7b4496bf6270c4b73e20d42@candeira.com>
Message-ID: <CALz4+LJThRB53aX+-znGmk1VH8DTr3nABKLbHk-WQ5ygtz1Jaw@mail.gmail.com>

Well said.
On 27/01/2016 11:35 PM, <javier at candeira.com> wrote:

> On 2016-01-27 16:07, Andrew Stuart wrote:
>
>> I?m curious to know why the limitations on job postings from recruiters?
>>
>
> Hi, Andrew.
>
> Thanks for asking. Also thanks for engaging the Python community as a
> member, not as an outsider. I liked your Pycon Au presentation last year,
> hope to see more from you in the future.
>
> Since I wrote the policy, and it's a bit ambiguous despite many voices
> agreeing on its main thrust, here's my rationale for writing it:
>
> The Python Users Group is for the benefit of its members. Traffic on the
> list has to have perceived benefits to them.
>
> Others have already spoken to the frustration of mismatched expectations
> between posting and interview. But it's also true good recruiters can help
> in matching jobs to candidates, if the candidates feel they have control
> over their job search, by having enough information as they go in. Cloaked
> posts are almost information free.
>
> Job postings that don't mention the employer nor the salary aren't useful
> to MPUG members on the list for the following reasons:
>
> - people who are already looking for work can already find those same job
> postings on seek, monster, etc. [1]
>
> - people who aren't already looking for work get no benefit, there's very
> little incentive to ask about it.
>
> The only benefit of job postings with no stated employer/salary is to the
> recruiters that can get a leg over other recruiters if people apply through
> them instead of going through other people. If we said yes to this type of
> cloaked postings, we'd get more of them, without any benefit for the
> community.
>
> So really, recruiters per se are not the target of this policy. Postings
> with no added value to our constituency are. Nobody has complained when
> Planet Innovation, the BOM, Biarri or Medibank (recent examples I remember)
> posted help wanted ads, not because they were not via recruiter, but
> because posting was informational.
>
> These are useful help-wanted notices, both to those looking for work and
> to those who aren't. We welcome this kind of postings by anyone. In fact,
> these are the ones that stick enough that I have told people in my circles
> to go talk to these companies if they were looking for work. I don't do
> that with cloaked postings.
>
> I understand this may not have been clear enough, so I will find a better
> redaction for the policy and link it to this email message for future
> reference.
>
>> Perhaps if there was a jobs mailing list address then people could
>> tune out of the noise by moving the job postings off the main list.
>>
>
> Anybody who wants to start a melbourne-python-jobs mailing list can do it.
> Many here might even subscribe to it, or send notices to it if they ever
> need someone. Someone has to take on the job.
>
> Regards,
> Javier
>
> [1] To be fair, search engines are spammier than recruiter emails, which
> at least usually write to the mailing list for the programming language and
> city fitting the position, while job postings on search engines are often
> fishing expeditions mentioning languages that will never be used on the
> job, cities that they hope the candidate will move from, etc. Still, the
> consensus is that cloaked job postings are not good enough for a community
> mailing list. We expect better.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> melbourne-pug mailing list
> melbourne-pug at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>
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From andrew.stuart at supercoders.com.au  Wed Jan 27 14:00:44 2016
From: andrew.stuart at supercoders.com.au (Andrew Stuart)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 06:00:44 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Question re job ads from recruiters
In-Reply-To: <b335bca6f7b4496bf6270c4b73e20d42@candeira.com>
References: <8A09539B-E20E-4E7F-9973-AFB0ABAB8EF6@supercoders.com.au>
 <b335bca6f7b4496bf6270c4b73e20d42@candeira.com>
Message-ID: <39E8EA47-69A3-4B18-BBA2-ECE3DF0220FB@supercoders.com.au>

Thanks Javier I understand and thanks for taking the time to explain.

Andrew


From ed at pythoncharmers.com  Thu Jan 28 05:26:17 2016
From: ed at pythoncharmers.com (Ed Schofield)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 21:26:17 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Python User Group meeting: Monday 1 February!
Message-ID: <D718C219-86AE-483B-892A-0A8FF2F1B9DA@pythoncharmers.com>

Hi everyone!

We're going to hold the first Melbourne Python User Group meeting of 2016 on Monday evening next week, 1 February.

Please note that the start time will be *6:00 for 6:15pm*. (There have been some changes in the venue's policy that require that we not start setting up until 6pm.) It will be at Inspire9, Level 1, 41 Stewart Street, Richmond.

Talks:

- I'll give a survey talk about different Python data tools: toolz, NumPy, Pandas, xarray, Blaze, Dask, bcolz, and PySpark. The ecosystem has been evolving quickly and I'll give an overview comparing and contrasting these tools and when to use what for different applications.

- There's time for more talks! If you'd like to give a talk, please email the list or me. We're keen to hear from you!

Job forum:

- Following on from recent email threads about jobs, we'll experiment with running a quick "job forum" like the Sydney Python User Group's. If you have a Python job you'd like to advertise, or if you are looking for a Python-related job, we'll give you the opportunity to take the mic!

Then we'll have time for pizza, drinks and general catching up after the Christmas / New Year break.

We'll have a good turnout on Monday according to the Meetup page. (If you are registered there but can no longer come, please change your status to "not coming" so the people on the waiting list can come!) I look forward to see you there!

Best wishes,
    Ed


--
Dr. Edward Schofield
Python Charmers
http://pythoncharmers.com <http://pythoncharmers.com/>
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From jni.soma at gmail.com  Thu Jan 28 05:48:14 2016
From: jni.soma at gmail.com (Juan Nunez-Iglesias)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 21:48:14 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Python User Group meeting: Monday 1 February!
In-Reply-To: <D718C219-86AE-483B-892A-0A8FF2F1B9DA@pythoncharmers.com>
References: <D718C219-86AE-483B-892A-0A8FF2F1B9DA@pythoncharmers.com>
Message-ID: <37582e7e-da7f-4940-9d49-afd73f2d4b51@Spark>

Hey Ed! (et al)

Any chance of postponing this to the 8th? Linux Conf Australia is on Feb 1-5 in Geelong and I'll be going to the Monday and Tuesday sessions. But I'd really like to come to the inaugural 2016 MPUG!

Juan.


On 28 Jan 2016, 9:26 PM +1100, Ed Schofield<ed at pythoncharmers.com>, wrote:
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From mark.jm5 at gmail.com  Thu Jan 28 06:19:29 2016
From: mark.jm5 at gmail.com (Mark Mukherjee)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 22:19:29 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] melbourne-pug Digest, Vol 115, Issue 10
In-Reply-To: <mailman.949.1453978121.2337.melbourne-pug@python.org>
References: <mailman.949.1453978121.2337.melbourne-pug@python.org>
Message-ID: <CAMw76az=-_qOD1xxZtXq1DCgSJpOxu6CYvQkk=WEit=0CVvOWQ@mail.gmail.com>

Please unsubscribe me from this list
On 28 Jan 2016 9:49 pm, <melbourne-pug-request at python.org> wrote:

> Send melbourne-pug mailing list submissions to
>         melbourne-pug at python.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         melbourne-pug-request at python.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         melbourne-pug-owner at python.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of melbourne-pug digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Question re job ads from recruiters (N6151H)
>    2. Re: Question re job ads from recruiters (Andrew Stuart)
>    3. Python User Group meeting: Monday 1 February! (Ed Schofield)
>    4. Re: Python User Group meeting: Monday 1 February!
>       (Juan Nunez-Iglesias)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 05:51:37 +1100
> From: N6151H <n6151h at gmail.com>
> To: Melbourne Python Users Group <melbourne-pug at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [melbourne-pug] Question re job ads from recruiters
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CALz4+LJThRB53aX+-znGmk1VH8DTr3nABKLbHk-WQ5ygtz1Jaw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Well said.
> On 27/01/2016 11:35 PM, <javier at candeira.com> wrote:
>
> > On 2016-01-27 16:07, Andrew Stuart wrote:
> >
> >> I?m curious to know why the limitations on job postings from recruiters?
> >>
> >
> > Hi, Andrew.
> >
> > Thanks for asking. Also thanks for engaging the Python community as a
> > member, not as an outsider. I liked your Pycon Au presentation last year,
> > hope to see more from you in the future.
> >
> > Since I wrote the policy, and it's a bit ambiguous despite many voices
> > agreeing on its main thrust, here's my rationale for writing it:
> >
> > The Python Users Group is for the benefit of its members. Traffic on the
> > list has to have perceived benefits to them.
> >
> > Others have already spoken to the frustration of mismatched expectations
> > between posting and interview. But it's also true good recruiters can
> help
> > in matching jobs to candidates, if the candidates feel they have control
> > over their job search, by having enough information as they go in.
> Cloaked
> > posts are almost information free.
> >
> > Job postings that don't mention the employer nor the salary aren't useful
> > to MPUG members on the list for the following reasons:
> >
> > - people who are already looking for work can already find those same job
> > postings on seek, monster, etc. [1]
> >
> > - people who aren't already looking for work get no benefit, there's very
> > little incentive to ask about it.
> >
> > The only benefit of job postings with no stated employer/salary is to the
> > recruiters that can get a leg over other recruiters if people apply
> through
> > them instead of going through other people. If we said yes to this type
> of
> > cloaked postings, we'd get more of them, without any benefit for the
> > community.
> >
> > So really, recruiters per se are not the target of this policy. Postings
> > with no added value to our constituency are. Nobody has complained when
> > Planet Innovation, the BOM, Biarri or Medibank (recent examples I
> remember)
> > posted help wanted ads, not because they were not via recruiter, but
> > because posting was informational.
> >
> > These are useful help-wanted notices, both to those looking for work and
> > to those who aren't. We welcome this kind of postings by anyone. In fact,
> > these are the ones that stick enough that I have told people in my
> circles
> > to go talk to these companies if they were looking for work. I don't do
> > that with cloaked postings.
> >
> > I understand this may not have been clear enough, so I will find a better
> > redaction for the policy and link it to this email message for future
> > reference.
> >
> >> Perhaps if there was a jobs mailing list address then people could
> >> tune out of the noise by moving the job postings off the main list.
> >>
> >
> > Anybody who wants to start a melbourne-python-jobs mailing list can do
> it.
> > Many here might even subscribe to it, or send notices to it if they ever
> > need someone. Someone has to take on the job.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Javier
> >
> > [1] To be fair, search engines are spammier than recruiter emails, which
> > at least usually write to the mailing list for the programming language
> and
> > city fitting the position, while job postings on search engines are often
> > fishing expeditions mentioning languages that will never be used on the
> > job, cities that they hope the candidate will move from, etc. Still, the
> > consensus is that cloaked job postings are not good enough for a
> community
> > mailing list. We expect better.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > melbourne-pug mailing list
> > melbourne-pug at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
> >
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 06:00:44 +1100
> From: Andrew Stuart <andrew.stuart at supercoders.com.au>
> To: Melbourne Python Users Group <melbourne-pug at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [melbourne-pug] Question re job ads from recruiters
> Message-ID: <39E8EA47-69A3-4B18-BBA2-ECE3DF0220FB at supercoders.com.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Thanks Javier I understand and thanks for taking the time to explain.
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 21:26:17 +1100
> From: Ed Schofield <ed at pythoncharmers.com>
> To: Melbourne Python Users Group <melbourne-pug at python.org>
> Subject: [melbourne-pug] Python User Group meeting: Monday 1 February!
> Message-ID: <D718C219-86AE-483B-892A-0A8FF2F1B9DA at pythoncharmers.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi everyone!
>
> We're going to hold the first Melbourne Python User Group meeting of 2016
> on Monday evening next week, 1 February.
>
> Please note that the start time will be *6:00 for 6:15pm*. (There have
> been some changes in the venue's policy that require that we not start
> setting up until 6pm.) It will be at Inspire9, Level 1, 41 Stewart Street,
> Richmond.
>
> Talks:
>
> - I'll give a survey talk about different Python data tools: toolz, NumPy,
> Pandas, xarray, Blaze, Dask, bcolz, and PySpark. The ecosystem has been
> evolving quickly and I'll give an overview comparing and contrasting these
> tools and when to use what for different applications.
>
> - There's time for more talks! If you'd like to give a talk, please email
> the list or me. We're keen to hear from you!
>
> Job forum:
>
> - Following on from recent email threads about jobs, we'll experiment with
> running a quick "job forum" like the Sydney Python User Group's. If you
> have a Python job you'd like to advertise, or if you are looking for a
> Python-related job, we'll give you the opportunity to take the mic!
>
> Then we'll have time for pizza, drinks and general catching up after the
> Christmas / New Year break.
>
> We'll have a good turnout on Monday according to the Meetup page. (If you
> are registered there but can no longer come, please change your status to
> "not coming" so the people on the waiting list can come!) I look forward to
> see you there!
>
> Best wishes,
>     Ed
>
>
> --
> Dr. Edward Schofield
> Python Charmers
> http://pythoncharmers.com <http://pythoncharmers.com/>
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 21:48:14 +1100
> From: Juan Nunez-Iglesias <jni.soma at gmail.com>
> To: Melbourne Python Users Group <melbourne-pug at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [melbourne-pug] Python User Group meeting: Monday 1
>         February!
> Message-ID: <37582e7e-da7f-4940-9d49-afd73f2d4b51 at Spark>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hey Ed! (et al)
>
> Any chance of postponing this to the 8th? Linux Conf Australia is on Feb
> 1-5 in Geelong and I'll be going to the Monday and Tuesday sessions. But
> I'd really like to come to the inaugural 2016 MPUG!
>
> Juan.
>
>
> On 28 Jan 2016, 9:26 PM +1100, Ed Schofield<ed at pythoncharmers.com>, wrote:
> -------------- next part --------------
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> melbourne-pug mailing list
> melbourne-pug at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of melbourne-pug Digest, Vol 115, Issue 10
> **********************************************
>
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From h.dashnow at gmail.com  Thu Jan 28 18:38:56 2016
From: h.dashnow at gmail.com (Harriet Dashnow)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 10:38:56 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Python User Group meeting: Monday 1 February!
In-Reply-To: <37582e7e-da7f-4940-9d49-afd73f2d4b51@Spark>
References: <D718C219-86AE-483B-892A-0A8FF2F1B9DA@pythoncharmers.com>
 <37582e7e-da7f-4940-9d49-afd73f2d4b51@Spark>
Message-ID: <CAKouk=Qxr6OPqLxxmsek7Z4K0zA4hP+_YZCJs3X36cET6tjwPA@mail.gmail.com>

Ditto. I would also like to come, but will be at LCA on the 1st of Feb.

On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 9:48 PM, Juan Nunez-Iglesias <jni.soma at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hey Ed! (et al)
>
> Any chance of postponing this to the 8th? Linux Conf Australia is on Feb
> 1-5 in Geelong and I'll be going to the Monday and Tuesday sessions. But
> I'd really like to come to the inaugural 2016 MPUG!
>
> Juan.
>
>
> On 28 Jan 2016, 9:26 PM +1100, Ed Schofield <ed at pythoncharmers.com>,
> wrote:
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> melbourne-pug mailing list
> melbourne-pug at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>
>


-- 
Harriet Dashnow
President, COMBINE <http://combine.org.au/>
BSc, BA, MSc (Bioinformatics), PhD candidate
www.harrietdashnow.com/about
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From n6151h at gmail.com  Thu Jan 28 20:18:21 2016
From: n6151h at gmail.com (N6151H)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 12:18:21 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Python User Group meeting: Monday 1 February!
In-Reply-To: <CAKouk=Qxr6OPqLxxmsek7Z4K0zA4hP+_YZCJs3X36cET6tjwPA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <D718C219-86AE-483B-892A-0A8FF2F1B9DA@pythoncharmers.com>
 <37582e7e-da7f-4940-9d49-afd73f2d4b51@Spark>
 <CAKouk=Qxr6OPqLxxmsek7Z4K0zA4hP+_YZCJs3X36cET6tjwPA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALz4+LJT4Sv_p3s_bhEjwiFFdF=iOhadx0Y1XQNZ8t=FmU4Ajw@mail.gmail.com>

Make that 3.   Will be out of town Monday evening and this looks like a
good one.

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Harriet Dashnow <h.dashnow at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Ditto. I would also like to come, but will be at LCA on the 1st of Feb.
>
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 9:48 PM, Juan Nunez-Iglesias <jni.soma at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hey Ed! (et al)
>>
>> Any chance of postponing this to the 8th? Linux Conf Australia is on Feb
>> 1-5 in Geelong and I'll be going to the Monday and Tuesday sessions. But
>> I'd really like to come to the inaugural 2016 MPUG!
>>
>> Juan.
>>
>>
>> On 28 Jan 2016, 9:26 PM +1100, Ed Schofield <ed at pythoncharmers.com>,
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> melbourne-pug mailing list
>> melbourne-pug at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Harriet Dashnow
> President, COMBINE <http://combine.org.au/>
> BSc, BA, MSc (Bioinformatics), PhD candidate
> www.harrietdashnow.com/about
>
> _______________________________________________
> melbourne-pug mailing list
> melbourne-pug at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>
>
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From nigel at expensecheck.com.au  Thu Jan 28 20:39:15 2016
From: nigel at expensecheck.com.au (Nigel Fellowes-Freeman)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 12:39:15 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Python User Group meeting: Monday 1 February!
In-Reply-To: <CALz4+LJT4Sv_p3s_bhEjwiFFdF=iOhadx0Y1XQNZ8t=FmU4Ajw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <D718C219-86AE-483B-892A-0A8FF2F1B9DA@pythoncharmers.com>
 <37582e7e-da7f-4940-9d49-afd73f2d4b51@Spark>
 <CAKouk=Qxr6OPqLxxmsek7Z4K0zA4hP+_YZCJs3X36cET6tjwPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALz4+LJT4Sv_p3s_bhEjwiFFdF=iOhadx0Y1XQNZ8t=FmU4Ajw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHJfjtJ3RnQ=Yxn6Gmk+=9YDw7A5sseLaw4Rzd+Ld0u04BKV3g@mail.gmail.com>

Make that 4!

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 12:18 PM, N6151H <n6151h at gmail.com> wrote:

> Make that 3.   Will be out of town Monday evening and this looks like a
> good one.
>
> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Harriet Dashnow <h.dashnow at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Ditto. I would also like to come, but will be at LCA on the 1st of Feb.
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 9:48 PM, Juan Nunez-Iglesias <jni.soma at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey Ed! (et al)
>>>
>>> Any chance of postponing this to the 8th? Linux Conf Australia is on Feb
>>> 1-5 in Geelong and I'll be going to the Monday and Tuesday sessions. But
>>> I'd really like to come to the inaugural 2016 MPUG!
>>>
>>> Juan.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 28 Jan 2016, 9:26 PM +1100, Ed Schofield <ed at pythoncharmers.com>,
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> melbourne-pug mailing list
>>> melbourne-pug at python.org
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Harriet Dashnow
>> President, COMBINE <http://combine.org.au/>
>> BSc, BA, MSc (Bioinformatics), PhD candidate
>> www.harrietdashnow.com/about
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> melbourne-pug mailing list
>> melbourne-pug at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> melbourne-pug mailing list
> melbourne-pug at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>
>


-- 

*Regards,*

*Nigel Fellowes-Freeman*

Director



Suite 240, 585 Little Collins Street, Melbourne, VIC, 3000

*P:* + 61 (0) 39014 9624 I *M:* + 61 (0) 415 911 265

*E:* nigel at expensecheck.com.au *W:* www.expensecheck.com.au

*LinkedIn:* http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=134634897

*Twitter:* https://twitter.com/expensecheck
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From brian at linuxpenguins.xyz  Sat Jan 30 01:53:35 2016
From: brian at linuxpenguins.xyz (Brian May)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 17:53:35 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Agile
Message-ID: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>

Hello All,

I recently had a job application rejected, for a Python Role, with the
following explanation:

       "Although we were impressed by your experience and passion for
       technology (particularly Python/Django), we are looking for more
       hands on experience working in an agile team environment.

I suspect a lot of employer's consider Agile very important, and this
might be a reason why I haven't had a lot of success so far with my job
search.

However, there seems to be this problem that I can't get experience
"working in an agile team" without getting one of these jobs, which I am
unlikely to get because (in the view of the person making the decision)
I haven't had the "hands on experience".

i.e. in Python that would be:

class Experience(object):
    ...
    
def get_job(experience):
    required_experience = ????
    experience = get_additional_experience_required(experience, required_experience)
    while True:
        try:
            job = apply_for_job(experience)
            ...
            attend_interview(job, experience)
            ...
            return job
        except ApplicationRejected:
            pass


def get_additional_experience_required(experience, required_experience):
    while experience < required_experience:
        job = get_job(experience)
        goto_work(job)
        experience = experience + perform_job(job)
    return experience


if __name__ == "__main__":
    experience = Experience()
    while True:
        job = get_job(experience)
        try:
            while True:
                goto_work(job)
                experience = experience + perform_job(job)
                goto_home()
                goto_bed()
        except LostJob:
            pass


Which is likely to produce a stack overflow error. However I don't think
stackoverflow.com is going to help me here. How do I fix the above code?

(1st draft only: applying for a job should be multi-threaded, so I can
have a number of open applications at any one time; there is also
several problems with my get_experience_required function if get_job
actually returned a result: e.g. no sleep and no catching the LostJob
exception)

Apparently just having experience in using the developmental tools, such
as git, Jenkins, Gerrit, Tox, github, Travis, etc is not sufficient. Nor
is my experience in a being a sole developer of a large and complicated
open source Django based application. I suspect I have used principles
of Agile development already, however not as part of a formal
development team.

I just wondered if anybody here had any tips for how I might go about
convincing potential employers that I can participate in an formal "Agile
team environment"?

Yes, I could read up more about the theory of Agile programming, however
I think they want practical experience, not theoretical knowledge.

Thanks.
-- 
Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>
https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/

From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Sat Jan 30 02:22:46 2016
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 18:22:46 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Agile
References: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
Message-ID: <85si1fedkp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz> writes:

> I just wondered if anybody here had any tips for how I might go about
> convincing potential employers that I can participate in an formal
> "Agile team environment"?

If they already have a requirement that you have experience working in a
team practicing agile methodology, then I think only the actual
experience would cut the mustard.

What I think such an employer would expect is: you've done it at a
previous role where that *wasn't* a prior requirement to get the role.

So, the only ?tip? there would be to obtain employment with some
organisation where the applicant *doesn't* need to have that prior
experience, and then gain the experience on that employer's time. Then,
you'll have the experience for the next role.

In other words, the employer wants to benefit from some other
organisation having already invested in your learning and experience.

> Yes, I could read up more about the theory of Agile programming, however
> I think they want practical experience, not theoretical knowledge.

You're right, I believe. It is a problem: employers tend to want to be
the beneficiary of, but not invest in, education and training of
incoming employees.

-- 
 \          ?Now Maggie, I?ll be watching you too, in case God is busy |
  `\       creating tornadoes or not existing.? ?Homer, _The Simpsons_ |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney


From brian at linuxpenguins.xyz  Sat Jan 30 02:56:55 2016
From: brian at linuxpenguins.xyz (Brian May)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 18:56:55 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Agile
In-Reply-To: <85si1fedkp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
References: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
 <85si1fedkp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <87y4b7zeig.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>

Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au> writes:

> So, the only ?tip? there would be to obtain employment with some
> organisation where the applicant *doesn't* need to have that prior
> experience, and then gain the experience on that employer's time. Then,
> you'll have the experience for the next role.

Then you need to find an organisation that is actually willing to to
invest in your learning and experience. Unlike my previous job, which
was suppose to provide it, but in practise it was a constant battle.

My research of the job market suggests that there aren't many positions
that would be interested in this sort of investment. Including some big
companies. Of course, it is also hard to tell for sure when so much
advertising is from recruiters who don't bother mentioning these
details.
-- 
Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>
https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/

From kiran.busi at gmail.com  Sat Jan 30 04:14:19 2016
From: kiran.busi at gmail.com (Kiran Busi)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 20:14:19 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Agile
In-Reply-To: <87y4b7zeig.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
References: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
 <85si1fedkp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <87y4b7zeig.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
Message-ID: <CAGcZ+8ogYC-6pG9V8Q-UzFRgCdy7UPTV68hsggZH7G4vQUFReQ@mail.gmail.com>

Agile is really another way to get stuff done, organising a large body of
work into regular deliverables.

Why not implement a version of agile in your org you're currently working
in now.  Keep the agile principle but modify the process to suit your org
size.
Then next interview you can say "yes" and talk about how you modified it to
xyz and why it made sense to do so.

If you're a good dev who can ship code, and can show it an org shouldn't
turn you away because you haven't done agile. At least it should not be the
make it it break it decision.


On Saturday, 30 January 2016, Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz> wrote:

> Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au <javascript:;>> writes:
>
> > So, the only ?tip? there would be to obtain employment with some
> > organisation where the applicant *doesn't* need to have that prior
> > experience, and then gain the experience on that employer's time. Then,
> > you'll have the experience for the next role.
>
> Then you need to find an organisation that is actually willing to to
> invest in your learning and experience. Unlike my previous job, which
> was suppose to provide it, but in practise it was a constant battle.
>
> My research of the job market suggests that there aren't many positions
> that would be interested in this sort of investment. Including some big
> companies. Of course, it is also hard to tell for sure when so much
> advertising is from recruiters who don't bother mentioning these
> details.
> --
> Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz <javascript:;>>
> https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/
> _______________________________________________
> melbourne-pug mailing list
> melbourne-pug at python.org <javascript:;>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>
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From aidan at aba-systems.com.au  Sat Jan 30 03:18:57 2016
From: aidan at aba-systems.com.au (Aidan Lister)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 08:18:57 +0000
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Agile
In-Reply-To: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
References: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
Message-ID: <CACiROSWwqigvVg0zo6uStz=ZeD=wJ2RvYZDCDUS2LrgEAeXiGQ@mail.gmail.com>

Send me your resume or GitHub! Any developer worth their chops is going to
slot into an agile workplace in a heartbeat. People over process, we are
just looking for great devs!

Your reflection sounds like a short sighted HR level decision, unless you
were going for a team lead role where you'd be expected to drive the agile
processes?


On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 at 2:59 PM, Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz> wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I recently had a job application rejected, for a Python Role, with the
> following explanation:
>
>        "Although we were impressed by your experience and passion for
>        technology (particularly Python/Django), we are looking for more
>        hands on experience working in an agile team environment.
>
> I suspect a lot of employer's consider Agile very important, and this
> might be a reason why I haven't had a lot of success so far with my job
> search.
>
> However, there seems to be this problem that I can't get experience
> "working in an agile team" without getting one of these jobs, which I am
> unlikely to get because (in the view of the person making the decision)
> I haven't had the "hands on experience".
>
> i.e. in Python that would be:
>
> class Experience(object):
>     ...
>
> def get_job(experience):
>     required_experience = ????
>     experience = get_additional_experience_required(experience,
> required_experience)
>     while True:
>         try:
>             job = apply_for_job(experience)
>             ...
>             attend_interview(job, experience)
>             ...
>             return job
>         except ApplicationRejected:
>             pass
>
>
> def get_additional_experience_required(experience, required_experience):
>     while experience < required_experience:
>         job = get_job(experience)
>         goto_work(job)
>         experience = experience + perform_job(job)
>     return experience
>
>
> if __name__ == "__main__":
>     experience = Experience()
>     while True:
>         job = get_job(experience)
>         try:
>             while True:
>                 goto_work(job)
>                 experience = experience + perform_job(job)
>                 goto_home()
>                 goto_bed()
>         except LostJob:
>             pass
>
>
> Which is likely to produce a stack overflow error. However I don't think
> stackoverflow.com is going to help me here. How do I fix the above code?
>
> (1st draft only: applying for a job should be multi-threaded, so I can
> have a number of open applications at any one time; there is also
> several problems with my get_experience_required function if get_job
> actually returned a result: e.g. no sleep and no catching the LostJob
> exception)
>
> Apparently just having experience in using the developmental tools, such
> as git, Jenkins, Gerrit, Tox, github, Travis, etc is not sufficient. Nor
> is my experience in a being a sole developer of a large and complicated
> open source Django based application. I suspect I have used principles
> of Agile development already, however not as part of a formal
> development team.
>
> I just wondered if anybody here had any tips for how I might go about
> convincing potential employers that I can participate in an formal "Agile
> team environment"?
>
> Yes, I could read up more about the theory of Agile programming, however
> I think they want practical experience, not theoretical knowledge.
>
> Thanks.
> --
> Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>
> https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/
> _______________________________________________
> melbourne-pug mailing list
> melbourne-pug at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>
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From soundz at gmail.com  Sat Jan 30 04:29:45 2016
From: soundz at gmail.com (soundz at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 17:29:45 +0800
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Agile
In-Reply-To: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
References: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
Message-ID: <CAKDbk9_fSeZRSAhprcibNg5Nt3mHRnsjBt3aka+63keSiqT0gA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Brian,

On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz> wrote:

>       "Although we were impressed by your experience and passion for
>        technology (particularly Python/Django), we are looking for more
>        hands on experience working in an agile team environment.
>
>
I agree you probably have worked in Agile ways more than you think.
My advice is memorise this fairly simple cheat sheet:
http://media.wiley.com/Lux/77/319877.image0.jpg
Read this page also for the more complete overview:
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/agile-project-management-for-dummies-cheat-sheet.html

I would think in an interview, even if you discuss stages 4 to 7 from the
point of view of a developer, and how you participated in these in the
workplace.
I believe you worked with the development team at our last company? :)

I think if you spout a few popular Agile buzzwords and know the meaning
behind them, more companies will happily move forward.
Regards,
Dylan
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From dylan.graham at gmail.com  Sat Jan 30 04:34:33 2016
From: dylan.graham at gmail.com (Dylan Graham)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 17:34:33 +0800
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Agile
In-Reply-To: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
References: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
Message-ID: <CAMzTdG8irfogZyakvzdabTGkm5vsD9Odzw+qZSqmTVyU0V31PQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Brian,

On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz> wrote:

>       "Although we were impressed by your experience and passion for
>        technology (particularly Python/Django), we are looking for more
>        hands on experience working in an agile team environment.
>
>
I agree you probably have worked in Agile ways more than you think.
My advice is memorise this fairly simple cheat sheet:
http://media.wiley.com/Lux/77/319877.image0.jpg
Read this page also for the overview:
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/agile-project-management-for-dummies-cheat-sheet.html

I would think in an interview, even if you discuss stages 4 to 7 from the
point of view of a developer, and how you participated in these in the
workplace. I believe you worked with the development team at our last
company? :) Alan practised parts of Agile and scrum quite well.

I think if you spout a few popular Agile buzzwords (and know the meaning
behind them), more companies will happily move forward.
Regards,
Dylan


On 30 January 2016 at 14:53, Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz> wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I recently had a job application rejected, for a Python Role, with the
> following explanation:
>
>        "Although we were impressed by your experience and passion for
>        technology (particularly Python/Django), we are looking for more
>        hands on experience working in an agile team environment.
>
> I suspect a lot of employer's consider Agile very important, and this
> might be a reason why I haven't had a lot of success so far with my job
> search.
>
> However, there seems to be this problem that I can't get experience
> "working in an agile team" without getting one of these jobs, which I am
> unlikely to get because (in the view of the person making the decision)
> I haven't had the "hands on experience".
>
> i.e. in Python that would be:
>
> class Experience(object):
>     ...
>
> def get_job(experience):
>     required_experience = ????
>     experience = get_additional_experience_required(experience,
> required_experience)
>     while True:
>         try:
>             job = apply_for_job(experience)
>             ...
>             attend_interview(job, experience)
>             ...
>             return job
>         except ApplicationRejected:
>             pass
>
>
> def get_additional_experience_required(experience, required_experience):
>     while experience < required_experience:
>         job = get_job(experience)
>         goto_work(job)
>         experience = experience + perform_job(job)
>     return experience
>
>
> if __name__ == "__main__":
>     experience = Experience()
>     while True:
>         job = get_job(experience)
>         try:
>             while True:
>                 goto_work(job)
>                 experience = experience + perform_job(job)
>                 goto_home()
>                 goto_bed()
>         except LostJob:
>             pass
>
>
> Which is likely to produce a stack overflow error. However I don't think
> stackoverflow.com is going to help me here. How do I fix the above code?
>
> (1st draft only: applying for a job should be multi-threaded, so I can
> have a number of open applications at any one time; there is also
> several problems with my get_experience_required function if get_job
> actually returned a result: e.g. no sleep and no catching the LostJob
> exception)
>
> Apparently just having experience in using the developmental tools, such
> as git, Jenkins, Gerrit, Tox, github, Travis, etc is not sufficient. Nor
> is my experience in a being a sole developer of a large and complicated
> open source Django based application. I suspect I have used principles
> of Agile development already, however not as part of a formal
> development team.
>
> I just wondered if anybody here had any tips for how I might go about
> convincing potential employers that I can participate in an formal "Agile
> team environment"?
>
> Yes, I could read up more about the theory of Agile programming, however
> I think they want practical experience, not theoretical knowledge.
>
> Thanks.
> --
> Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>
> https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/
> _______________________________________________
> melbourne-pug mailing list
> melbourne-pug at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>
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From mark.jm5 at gmail.com  Sat Jan 30 05:11:11 2016
From: mark.jm5 at gmail.com (Mark Mukherjee)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 21:11:11 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] melbourne-pug Digest, Vol 115, Issue 13
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1470.1454148523.2337.melbourne-pug@python.org>
References: <mailman.1470.1454148523.2337.melbourne-pug@python.org>
Message-ID: <CAMw76axO-sQaO0htSgVPn4HuFCdCZnmUM9A0mbOLLMpnnoQHQw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I've tried hitting the unsubscribe link on this mailing list a number of
time, and it hasn't worked.

Can you please remove me from this mailing list?

Mark


On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 9:08 PM, <melbourne-pug-request at python.org> wrote:

> Send melbourne-pug mailing list submissions to
>         melbourne-pug at python.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         melbourne-pug-request at python.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         melbourne-pug-owner at python.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of melbourne-pug digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Agile (Brian May)
>    2. Re: Agile (Ben Finney)
>    3. Re: Agile (Brian May)
>    4. Re: Agile (Kiran Busi)
>    5. Re: Agile (Aidan Lister)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 17:53:35 +1100
> From: Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>
> To: melbourne-pug at python.org
> Subject: [melbourne-pug] Agile
> Message-ID: <874mdv1rtc.fsf at prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> Hello All,
>
> I recently had a job application rejected, for a Python Role, with the
> following explanation:
>
>        "Although we were impressed by your experience and passion for
>        technology (particularly Python/Django), we are looking for more
>        hands on experience working in an agile team environment.
>
> I suspect a lot of employer's consider Agile very important, and this
> might be a reason why I haven't had a lot of success so far with my job
> search.
>
> However, there seems to be this problem that I can't get experience
> "working in an agile team" without getting one of these jobs, which I am
> unlikely to get because (in the view of the person making the decision)
> I haven't had the "hands on experience".
>
> i.e. in Python that would be:
>
> class Experience(object):
>     ...
>
> def get_job(experience):
>     required_experience = ????
>     experience = get_additional_experience_required(experience,
> required_experience)
>     while True:
>         try:
>             job = apply_for_job(experience)
>             ...
>             attend_interview(job, experience)
>             ...
>             return job
>         except ApplicationRejected:
>             pass
>
>
> def get_additional_experience_required(experience, required_experience):
>     while experience < required_experience:
>         job = get_job(experience)
>         goto_work(job)
>         experience = experience + perform_job(job)
>     return experience
>
>
> if __name__ == "__main__":
>     experience = Experience()
>     while True:
>         job = get_job(experience)
>         try:
>             while True:
>                 goto_work(job)
>                 experience = experience + perform_job(job)
>                 goto_home()
>                 goto_bed()
>         except LostJob:
>             pass
>
>
> Which is likely to produce a stack overflow error. However I don't think
> stackoverflow.com is going to help me here. How do I fix the above code?
>
> (1st draft only: applying for a job should be multi-threaded, so I can
> have a number of open applications at any one time; there is also
> several problems with my get_experience_required function if get_job
> actually returned a result: e.g. no sleep and no catching the LostJob
> exception)
>
> Apparently just having experience in using the developmental tools, such
> as git, Jenkins, Gerrit, Tox, github, Travis, etc is not sufficient. Nor
> is my experience in a being a sole developer of a large and complicated
> open source Django based application. I suspect I have used principles
> of Agile development already, however not as part of a formal
> development team.
>
> I just wondered if anybody here had any tips for how I might go about
> convincing potential employers that I can participate in an formal "Agile
> team environment"?
>
> Yes, I could read up more about the theory of Agile programming, however
> I think they want practical experience, not theoretical knowledge.
>
> Thanks.
> --
> Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>
> https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 18:22:46 +1100
> From: Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au>
> To: melbourne-pug at python.org
> Subject: Re: [melbourne-pug] Agile
> Message-ID: <85si1fedkp.fsf at benfinney.id.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz> writes:
>
> > I just wondered if anybody here had any tips for how I might go about
> > convincing potential employers that I can participate in an formal
> > "Agile team environment"?
>
> If they already have a requirement that you have experience working in a
> team practicing agile methodology, then I think only the actual
> experience would cut the mustard.
>
> What I think such an employer would expect is: you've done it at a
> previous role where that *wasn't* a prior requirement to get the role.
>
> So, the only ?tip? there would be to obtain employment with some
> organisation where the applicant *doesn't* need to have that prior
> experience, and then gain the experience on that employer's time. Then,
> you'll have the experience for the next role.
>
> In other words, the employer wants to benefit from some other
> organisation having already invested in your learning and experience.
>
> > Yes, I could read up more about the theory of Agile programming, however
> > I think they want practical experience, not theoretical knowledge.
>
> You're right, I believe. It is a problem: employers tend to want to be
> the beneficiary of, but not invest in, education and training of
> incoming employees.
>
> --
>  \          ?Now Maggie, I?ll be watching you too, in case God is busy |
>   `\       creating tornadoes or not existing.? ?Homer, _The Simpsons_ |
> _o__)                                                                  |
> Ben Finney
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 18:56:55 +1100
> From: Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>
> To: Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au>, melbourne-pug at python.org
> Subject: Re: [melbourne-pug] Agile
> Message-ID: <87y4b7zeig.fsf at prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au> writes:
>
> > So, the only ?tip? there would be to obtain employment with some
> > organisation where the applicant *doesn't* need to have that prior
> > experience, and then gain the experience on that employer's time. Then,
> > you'll have the experience for the next role.
>
> Then you need to find an organisation that is actually willing to to
> invest in your learning and experience. Unlike my previous job, which
> was suppose to provide it, but in practise it was a constant battle.
>
> My research of the job market suggests that there aren't many positions
> that would be interested in this sort of investment. Including some big
> companies. Of course, it is also hard to tell for sure when so much
> advertising is from recruiters who don't bother mentioning these
> details.
> --
> Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>
> https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 20:14:19 +1100
> From: Kiran Busi <kiran.busi at gmail.com>
> To: Melbourne Python Users Group <melbourne-pug at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [melbourne-pug] Agile
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CAGcZ+8ogYC-6pG9V8Q-UzFRgCdy7UPTV68hsggZH7G4vQUFReQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Agile is really another way to get stuff done, organising a large body of
> work into regular deliverables.
>
> Why not implement a version of agile in your org you're currently working
> in now.  Keep the agile principle but modify the process to suit your org
> size.
> Then next interview you can say "yes" and talk about how you modified it to
> xyz and why it made sense to do so.
>
> If you're a good dev who can ship code, and can show it an org shouldn't
> turn you away because you haven't done agile. At least it should not be the
> make it it break it decision.
>
>
> On Saturday, 30 January 2016, Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz> wrote:
>
> > Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au <javascript:;>> writes:
> >
> > > So, the only ?tip? there would be to obtain employment with some
> > > organisation where the applicant *doesn't* need to have that prior
> > > experience, and then gain the experience on that employer's time. Then,
> > > you'll have the experience for the next role.
> >
> > Then you need to find an organisation that is actually willing to to
> > invest in your learning and experience. Unlike my previous job, which
> > was suppose to provide it, but in practise it was a constant battle.
> >
> > My research of the job market suggests that there aren't many positions
> > that would be interested in this sort of investment. Including some big
> > companies. Of course, it is also hard to tell for sure when so much
> > advertising is from recruiters who don't bother mentioning these
> > details.
> > --
> > Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz <javascript:;>>
> > https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/
> > _______________________________________________
> > melbourne-pug mailing list
> > melbourne-pug at python.org <javascript:;>
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/melbourne-pug/attachments/20160130/252790ad/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 08:18:57 +0000
> From: Aidan Lister <aidan at aba-systems.com.au>
> To: Melbourne Python Users Group <melbourne-pug at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [melbourne-pug] Agile
> Message-ID:
>         <CACiROSWwqigvVg0zo6uStz=ZeD=
> wJ2RvYZDCDUS2LrgEAeXiGQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Send me your resume or GitHub! Any developer worth their chops is going to
> slot into an agile workplace in a heartbeat. People over process, we are
> just looking for great devs!
>
> Your reflection sounds like a short sighted HR level decision, unless you
> were going for a team lead role where you'd be expected to drive the agile
> processes?
>
>
> On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 at 2:59 PM, Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz> wrote:
>
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I recently had a job application rejected, for a Python Role, with the
> > following explanation:
> >
> >        "Although we were impressed by your experience and passion for
> >        technology (particularly Python/Django), we are looking for more
> >        hands on experience working in an agile team environment.
> >
> > I suspect a lot of employer's consider Agile very important, and this
> > might be a reason why I haven't had a lot of success so far with my job
> > search.
> >
> > However, there seems to be this problem that I can't get experience
> > "working in an agile team" without getting one of these jobs, which I am
> > unlikely to get because (in the view of the person making the decision)
> > I haven't had the "hands on experience".
> >
> > i.e. in Python that would be:
> >
> > class Experience(object):
> >     ...
> >
> > def get_job(experience):
> >     required_experience = ????
> >     experience = get_additional_experience_required(experience,
> > required_experience)
> >     while True:
> >         try:
> >             job = apply_for_job(experience)
> >             ...
> >             attend_interview(job, experience)
> >             ...
> >             return job
> >         except ApplicationRejected:
> >             pass
> >
> >
> > def get_additional_experience_required(experience, required_experience):
> >     while experience < required_experience:
> >         job = get_job(experience)
> >         goto_work(job)
> >         experience = experience + perform_job(job)
> >     return experience
> >
> >
> > if __name__ == "__main__":
> >     experience = Experience()
> >     while True:
> >         job = get_job(experience)
> >         try:
> >             while True:
> >                 goto_work(job)
> >                 experience = experience + perform_job(job)
> >                 goto_home()
> >                 goto_bed()
> >         except LostJob:
> >             pass
> >
> >
> > Which is likely to produce a stack overflow error. However I don't think
> > stackoverflow.com is going to help me here. How do I fix the above code?
> >
> > (1st draft only: applying for a job should be multi-threaded, so I can
> > have a number of open applications at any one time; there is also
> > several problems with my get_experience_required function if get_job
> > actually returned a result: e.g. no sleep and no catching the LostJob
> > exception)
> >
> > Apparently just having experience in using the developmental tools, such
> > as git, Jenkins, Gerrit, Tox, github, Travis, etc is not sufficient. Nor
> > is my experience in a being a sole developer of a large and complicated
> > open source Django based application. I suspect I have used principles
> > of Agile development already, however not as part of a formal
> > development team.
> >
> > I just wondered if anybody here had any tips for how I might go about
> > convincing potential employers that I can participate in an formal "Agile
> > team environment"?
> >
> > Yes, I could read up more about the theory of Agile programming, however
> > I think they want practical experience, not theoretical knowledge.
> >
> > Thanks.
> > --
> > Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>
> > https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/
> > _______________________________________________
> > melbourne-pug mailing list
> > melbourne-pug at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/melbourne-pug/attachments/20160130/46f3ef60/attachment.html
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> melbourne-pug mailing list
> melbourne-pug at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of melbourne-pug Digest, Vol 115, Issue 13
> **********************************************
>
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From brian at linuxpenguins.xyz  Sat Jan 30 05:30:07 2016
From: brian at linuxpenguins.xyz (Brian May)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 21:30:07 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] melbourne-pug Digest, Vol 115, Issue 13
In-Reply-To: <CAMw76axO-sQaO0htSgVPn4HuFCdCZnmUM9A0mbOLLMpnnoQHQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1470.1454148523.2337.melbourne-pug@python.org>
 <CAMw76axO-sQaO0htSgVPn4HuFCdCZnmUM9A0mbOLLMpnnoQHQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87vb6bz7f4.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>

Mark Mukherjee <mark.jm5 at gmail.com> writes:

>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>         melbourne-pug-owner at python.org

You would be better off emailing this address for help, I think.
-- 
Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>
https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/

From miked at dewhirst.com.au  Sat Jan 30 06:00:15 2016
From: miked at dewhirst.com.au (Mike Dewhirst)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 22:00:15 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Agile
In-Reply-To: <CAGcZ+8ogYC-6pG9V8Q-UzFRgCdy7UPTV68hsggZH7G4vQUFReQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
 <85si1fedkp.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <87y4b7zeig.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
 <CAGcZ+8ogYC-6pG9V8Q-UzFRgCdy7UPTV68hsggZH7G4vQUFReQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56AC97BF.2000605@dewhirst.com.au>

+1

On 30/01/2016 8:14 PM, Kiran Busi wrote:
> Agile is really another way to get stuff done, organising a large body
> of work into regular deliverables.?
>
> Why not implement a version of agile in your org you're currently
> working in now.?  Keep the agile principle? but modify the process to
> suit your org size.
> Then next interview you can say "yes" and talk about how you modified it
> to xyz and why it made sense to do so.
>
> If you're a good dev who can ship code, and can show it an org shouldn't
> turn you away because you haven't done agile. At least it should not be
> the make it it break it decision.
>
>
> On Saturday, 30 January 2016, Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz
> <mailto:brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>> wrote:
>
>     Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au <javascript:;>> writes:
>
>      > So, the only ???tip??? there would be to obtain employment with some
>      > organisation where the applicant *doesn't* need to have that prior
>      > experience, and then gain the experience on that employer's time.
>     Then,
>      > you'll have the experience for the next role.
>
>     Then you need to find an organisation that is actually willing to to
>     invest in your learning and experience. Unlike my previous job, which
>     was suppose to provide it, but in practise it was a constant battle.
>
>     My research of the job market suggests that there aren't many positions
>     that would be interested in this sort of investment. Including some big
>     companies. Of course, it is also hard to tell for sure when so much
>     advertising is from recruiters who don't bother mentioning these
>     details.
>     --
>     Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz <javascript:;>>
>     https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/
>     _______________________________________________
>     melbourne-pug mailing list
>     melbourne-pug at python.org <javascript:;>
>     https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> melbourne-pug mailing list
> melbourne-pug at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>


From paul at metrak.com  Sat Jan 30 12:41:23 2016
From: paul at metrak.com (paul sorenson)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 09:41:23 -0800
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Agile
In-Reply-To: <CACiROSWwqigvVg0zo6uStz=ZeD=wJ2RvYZDCDUS2LrgEAeXiGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
 <CACiROSWwqigvVg0zo6uStz=ZeD=wJ2RvYZDCDUS2LrgEAeXiGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56ACF5C3.5070706@metrak.com>

Yeah as soon as some new methodology comes along an industry quickly
grows up around it promoting "the right way" and often losing sight of
the core meaning.

Companies who are truly agile would have no insecurities hiring great
technical talent with "no prior agile experience" as long as the
candidate showed a willingness to operate in an agile way.

Also key hiring decisions are often made by people who have no
development experience themselves and so are constrained to "go by the
book".

On 30/01/16 00:18, Aidan Lister wrote:
> Send me your resume or GitHub! Any developer worth their chops is going
> to slot into an agile workplace in a heartbeat. People over process, we
> are just looking for great devs!
> 
> Your reflection sounds like a short sighted HR level decision, unless
> you were going for a team lead role where you'd be expected to drive the
> agile processes?
> 
> 
> On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 at 2:59 PM, Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz
> <mailto:brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>> wrote:
> 
>     Hello All,
> 
>     I recently had a job application rejected, for a Python Role, with the
>     following explanation:
> 
>            "Although we were impressed by your experience and passion for
>            technology (particularly Python/Django), we are looking for more
>            hands on experience working in an agile team environment.
> 
>     I suspect a lot of employer's consider Agile very important, and this
>     might be a reason why I haven't had a lot of success so far with my job
>     search.
> 
>     However, there seems to be this problem that I can't get experience
>     "working in an agile team" without getting one of these jobs, which I am
>     unlikely to get because (in the view of the person making the decision)
>     I haven't had the "hands on experience".
> 
>     i.e. in Python that would be:
> 
>     class Experience(object):
>         ...
> 
>     def get_job(experience):
>         required_experience = ????
>         experience = get_additional_experience_required(experience,
>     required_experience)
>         while True:
>             try:
>                 job = apply_for_job(experience)
>                 ...
>                 attend_interview(job, experience)
>                 ...
>                 return job
>             except ApplicationRejected:
>                 pass
> 
> 
>     def get_additional_experience_required(experience, required_experience):
>         while experience < required_experience:
>             job = get_job(experience)
>             goto_work(job)
>             experience = experience + perform_job(job)
>         return experience
> 
> 
>     if __name__ == "__main__":
>         experience = Experience()
>         while True:
>             job = get_job(experience)
>             try:
>                 while True:
>                     goto_work(job)
>                     experience = experience + perform_job(job)
>                     goto_home()
>                     goto_bed()
>             except LostJob:
>                 pass
> 
> 
>     Which is likely to produce a stack overflow error. However I don't think
>     stackoverflow.com <http://stackoverflow.com> is going to help me
>     here. How do I fix the above code?
> 
>     (1st draft only: applying for a job should be multi-threaded, so I can
>     have a number of open applications at any one time; there is also
>     several problems with my get_experience_required function if get_job
>     actually returned a result: e.g. no sleep and no catching the LostJob
>     exception)
> 
>     Apparently just having experience in using the developmental tools, such
>     as git, Jenkins, Gerrit, Tox, github, Travis, etc is not sufficient. Nor
>     is my experience in a being a sole developer of a large and complicated
>     open source Django based application. I suspect I have used principles
>     of Agile development already, however not as part of a formal
>     development team.
> 
>     I just wondered if anybody here had any tips for how I might go about
>     convincing potential employers that I can participate in an formal
>     "Agile
>     team environment"?
> 
>     Yes, I could read up more about the theory of Agile programming, however
>     I think they want practical experience, not theoretical knowledge.
> 
>     Thanks.
>     --
>     Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz <mailto:brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>>
>     https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/
>     _______________________________________________
>     melbourne-pug mailing list
>     melbourne-pug at python.org <mailto:melbourne-pug at python.org>
>     https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> melbourne-pug mailing list
> melbourne-pug at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
> 

From javier at candeira.com  Sat Jan 30 17:09:57 2016
From: javier at candeira.com (Javier Candeira)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 09:09:57 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Agile
In-Reply-To: <56ACF5C3.5070706@metrak.com>
References: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
 <CACiROSWwqigvVg0zo6uStz=ZeD=wJ2RvYZDCDUS2LrgEAeXiGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56ACF5C3.5070706@metrak.com>
Message-ID: <7AC4DFFE-B72C-4171-BD33-5EC0B79FEF3A@candeira.com>

The bloody irony of it is that agile was supossed to be about "people over process"...

J


On 31 January 2016 04:41:23 GMT+11:00, paul sorenson <paul at metrak.com> wrote:
>Yeah as soon as some new methodology comes along an industry quickly
>grows up around it promoting "the right way" and often losing sight of
>the core meaning.
>
>Companies who are truly agile would have no insecurities hiring great
>technical talent with "no prior agile experience" as long as the
>candidate showed a willingness to operate in an agile way.
>
>Also key hiring decisions are often made by people who have no
>development experience themselves and so are constrained to "go by the
>book".
>
>On 30/01/16 00:18, Aidan Lister wrote:
>> Send me your resume or GitHub! Any developer worth their chops is
>going
>> to slot into an agile workplace in a heartbeat. People over process,
>we
>> are just looking for great devs!
>> 
>> Your reflection sounds like a short sighted HR level decision, unless
>> you were going for a team lead role where you'd be expected to drive
>the
>> agile processes?
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 at 2:59 PM, Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz
>> <mailto:brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>> wrote:
>> 
>>     Hello All,
>> 
>>     I recently had a job application rejected, for a Python Role,
>with the
>>     following explanation:
>> 
>>            "Although we were impressed by your experience and passion
>for
>>            technology (particularly Python/Django), we are looking
>for more
>>            hands on experience working in an agile team environment.
>> 
>>     I suspect a lot of employer's consider Agile very important, and
>this
>>     might be a reason why I haven't had a lot of success so far with
>my job
>>     search.
>> 
>>     However, there seems to be this problem that I can't get
>experience
>>     "working in an agile team" without getting one of these jobs,
>which I am
>>     unlikely to get because (in the view of the person making the
>decision)
>>     I haven't had the "hands on experience".
>> 
>>     i.e. in Python that would be:
>> 
>>     class Experience(object):
>>         ...
>> 
>>     def get_job(experience):
>>         required_experience = ????
>>         experience = get_additional_experience_required(experience,
>>     required_experience)
>>         while True:
>>             try:
>>                 job = apply_for_job(experience)
>>                 ...
>>                 attend_interview(job, experience)
>>                 ...
>>                 return job
>>             except ApplicationRejected:
>>                 pass
>> 
>> 
>>     def get_additional_experience_required(experience,
>required_experience):
>>         while experience < required_experience:
>>             job = get_job(experience)
>>             goto_work(job)
>>             experience = experience + perform_job(job)
>>         return experience
>> 
>> 
>>     if __name__ == "__main__":
>>         experience = Experience()
>>         while True:
>>             job = get_job(experience)
>>             try:
>>                 while True:
>>                     goto_work(job)
>>                     experience = experience + perform_job(job)
>>                     goto_home()
>>                     goto_bed()
>>             except LostJob:
>>                 pass
>> 
>> 
>>     Which is likely to produce a stack overflow error. However I
>don't think
>>     stackoverflow.com <http://stackoverflow.com> is going to help me
>>     here. How do I fix the above code?
>> 
>>     (1st draft only: applying for a job should be multi-threaded, so
>I can
>>     have a number of open applications at any one time; there is also
>>     several problems with my get_experience_required function if
>get_job
>>     actually returned a result: e.g. no sleep and no catching the
>LostJob
>>     exception)
>> 
>>     Apparently just having experience in using the developmental
>tools, such
>>     as git, Jenkins, Gerrit, Tox, github, Travis, etc is not
>sufficient. Nor
>>     is my experience in a being a sole developer of a large and
>complicated
>>     open source Django based application. I suspect I have used
>principles
>>     of Agile development already, however not as part of a formal
>>     development team.
>> 
>>     I just wondered if anybody here had any tips for how I might go
>about
>>     convincing potential employers that I can participate in an
>formal
>>     "Agile
>>     team environment"?
>> 
>>     Yes, I could read up more about the theory of Agile programming,
>however
>>     I think they want practical experience, not theoretical
>knowledge.
>> 
>>     Thanks.
>>     --
>>     Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz
><mailto:brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>>
>>     https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     melbourne-pug mailing list
>>     melbourne-pug at python.org <mailto:melbourne-pug at python.org>
>>     https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> melbourne-pug mailing list
>> melbourne-pug at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug
>> 
>_______________________________________________
>melbourne-pug mailing list
>melbourne-pug at python.org
>https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/melbourne-pug

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From brian at linuxpenguins.xyz  Sat Jan 30 17:42:54 2016
From: brian at linuxpenguins.xyz (Brian May)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 09:42:54 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Agile
In-Reply-To: <CAGcZ+8ogYC-6pG9V8Q-UzFRgCdy7UPTV68hsggZH7G4vQUFReQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
 <85si1fedkp.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <87y4b7zeig.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
 <CAGcZ+8ogYC-6pG9V8Q-UzFRgCdy7UPTV68hsggZH7G4vQUFReQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87powizo29.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>

Kiran Busi <kiran.busi at gmail.com> writes:

> Why not implement a version of agile in your org you're currently
> working in now.  Keep the agile principle but modify the process to
> suit your org size.  Then next interview you can say "yes" and talk
> about how you modified it to xyz and why it made sense to do so.

Good suggestion. If I was still employed in a code development role...

Like Dylan has said, I suspect in my previous job I was actually doing a
lot of the steps in Agile, with the big exception that I had all the
hats: "Product Owner", "Representative User", "Scrum Team", "Development
Team", "Documentation Writer", "Documentation Proof Reader", "Project
Leader", "Release Manager", etc.

Maybe I need to be better at getting this point across in interviews.
-- 
Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>
https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/

From brian at linuxpenguins.xyz  Sat Jan 30 17:50:11 2016
From: brian at linuxpenguins.xyz (Brian May)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 09:50:11 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Agile
In-Reply-To: <CAMzTdG8irfogZyakvzdabTGkm5vsD9Odzw+qZSqmTVyU0V31PQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
 <CAMzTdG8irfogZyakvzdabTGkm5vsD9Odzw+qZSqmTVyU0V31PQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87mvrmznq4.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>

Wow. I feel honored and priviledged. You gave me two responses. :-)

Very similar responses, but it is the point that counts, right?

Dylan Graham <dylan.graham at gmail.com> writes:

> I agree you probably have worked in Agile ways more than you think.
> My advice is memorise this fairly simple cheat sheet:
> http://media.wiley.com/Lux/77/319877.image0.jpg
> Read this page also for the overview:
> http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/agile-project-management-for-dummies-cheat-sheet.html

Thanks for the links.

> I think if you spout a few popular Agile buzzwords (and know the meaning
> behind them), more companies will happily move forward.
> Regards,

Yes. I probably should update my resume to include some of these
buzzwords too.
-- 
Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>
https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/

From brian at linuxpenguins.xyz  Sat Jan 30 18:34:07 2016
From: brian at linuxpenguins.xyz (Brian May)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 10:34:07 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Agile
In-Reply-To: <56ACF5C3.5070706@metrak.com>
References: <874mdv1rtc.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
 <CACiROSWwqigvVg0zo6uStz=ZeD=wJ2RvYZDCDUS2LrgEAeXiGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56ACF5C3.5070706@metrak.com>
Message-ID: <87h9huzlow.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>

paul sorenson <paul at metrak.com> writes:

> "... as long as the candidate showed a willingness to operate in an
> agile way."

Hmmm. Wonder if I need to be better at communicating this. Just a
thought.
-- 
Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>
https://linuxpenguins.xyz/brian/

From za at python.or.id  Sun Jan 31 08:10:53 2016
From: za at python.or.id (Zaki Akhmad)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 00:10:53 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Python User Group meeting: Monday 1 February!
In-Reply-To: <D718C219-86AE-483B-892A-0A8FF2F1B9DA@pythoncharmers.com>
References: <D718C219-86AE-483B-892A-0A8FF2F1B9DA@pythoncharmers.com>
Message-ID: <CAGrappYjY6UCRtoD770pUwn_w=CYHcgx=HurniA0FcpLFcy03g@mail.gmail.com>

There's no changes on meetup page
http://www.meetup.com/Melbourne-Python-Meetup-Group/events/226120240/

I am assuming, the February meetup will be today: 1 February 2016?
-za,

From za at python.or.id  Sun Jan 31 08:17:00 2016
From: za at python.or.id (Zaki Akhmad)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 00:17:00 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] melbourne-pug Digest, Vol 115, Issue 13
In-Reply-To: <87vb6bz7f4.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
References: <mailman.1470.1454148523.2337.melbourne-pug@python.org>
 <CAMw76axO-sQaO0htSgVPn4HuFCdCZnmUM9A0mbOLLMpnnoQHQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <87vb6bz7f4.fsf@prune.linuxpenguins.xyz>
Message-ID: <CAGrappb1A7KPnFZ61Z0iy+6rHBWHpm7C+GSGDWv==zaGRKGSRA@mail.gmail.com>

2016-01-30 21:30 GMT+11:00 Brian May <brian at linuxpenguins.xyz>:
> Mark Mukherjee <mark.jm5 at gmail.com> writes:
>
>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>         melbourne-pug-owner at python.org
>
> You would be better off emailing this address for help, I think.

Mark, you can try send blank email with subject to:

melbourne-pug-unsubscribe at python.org

Wait for automatic respond in less than 10 minutes and follow the
instructions there.

-za,

From ed at pythoncharmers.com  Sun Jan 31 19:09:17 2016
From: ed at pythoncharmers.com (Ed Schofield)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 11:09:17 +1100
Subject: [melbourne-pug] Python User Group meeting: Monday 1 February!
In-Reply-To: <CAGrappYjY6UCRtoD770pUwn_w=CYHcgx=HurniA0FcpLFcy03g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <D718C219-86AE-483B-892A-0A8FF2F1B9DA@pythoncharmers.com>
 <CAGrappYjY6UCRtoD770pUwn_w=CYHcgx=HurniA0FcpLFcy03g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A72E9F07-5330-4377-A5AE-59568E38EBBA@pythoncharmers.com>

Hi Juan and co!

Thanks for asking, but Inspire9 is generally too booked up to change dates at short notice. We also have 60+ people registered for tonight, so changing it would throw a spanner in the works for them.

Have fun at LCA! I hope to see you next time!

Everyone else: I look forward to seeing you tonight if you can make it! 6 for 6.15 @ Inspire9.

Cheers,
    Ed


> On 1 Feb 2016, at 12:10 AM, Zaki Akhmad <za at python.or.id> wrote:
> 
> There's no changes on meetup page
> http://www.meetup.com/Melbourne-Python-Meetup-Group/events/226120240/
> 
> I am assuming, the February meetup will be today: 1 February 2016?
> -za